**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 18 02:59:57 2007 Feb 18 03:10:49 rwhitby: i haven't tried it yet. just got home from the pub. i think'l try it tomorrow (i.e. later today) Feb 18 03:12:37 have you got any positive feedback from it yet? i guess you've helpde a lot of newbies getting started with it. Feb 18 03:17:00 I haven't got completely through the build yet - it seems that the build instructions are not reproducable for a good build. But I'm patching things as I go (in a way that everyone else gets the patches too). Feb 18 04:15:58 NOTE: package openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0: task do_rootfs: started Feb 18 04:16:22 (sans u-boot, cause it doesn't build, but you can't use it on anything yet anyway) Feb 18 04:16:44 now to test the Makefile changes upgrade from the current version, and publish it. Feb 18 04:25:01 NOTE: package openmoko-devel-image-1.0: completed Feb 18 04:30:39 rwhitby, mokomakefile gives me an error saying "uboot-mkimage: command not found". Am i missing any package ? Feb 18 04:33:42 did you "make update-makefile ; make setup ; make update" and retry before reporting the problem? Feb 18 04:34:21 rwhitby, i did make update; make openmoko-devel-image Feb 18 04:34:37 try the above Feb 18 04:34:40 thats make update-makefile and not make update Feb 18 04:35:06 you always need to make setup and make update again, in case the makefile changed Feb 18 04:35:17 those targets are idempotent Feb 18 04:36:01 rwhitby, but anyways i was truing a fresh make in a different directory. Which means i pulled new makefile Feb 18 04:36:52 instead of discussing, run the commands above, and report if it still fails. Feb 18 04:37:39 rwhitby, i am already doing so Feb 18 04:38:21 done with above commands. Shoul di now do make openmoko-devel-image Feb 18 04:40:35 yes Feb 18 04:41:04 unfortunately with the current Makefile it will rebuild all the openmoko apps - I don't know why they set it up like that for the developer release of source. Feb 18 04:41:16 (but I will be fixing that in MokoMakefile in my next release) Feb 18 04:44:22 can someone try "svn co svn://svn.projects.openmoko.org//var/lib/gforge/chroot/svnroot/mokomakefile/trunk mokomakefile" and tell me if it works? Feb 18 04:49:22 rwhitby: svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.projects.openmoko.org': Connection refused Feb 18 04:49:46 valed: thx - it's not just me then. Feb 18 04:50:00 looks like svn+ssh access is o.k., but anonymous access is not. Feb 18 04:50:15 LaF0rge: is projects.openmoko.org anonymous svn access set up yet? Feb 18 04:51:09 rwhitby, svn checkout with mokomakefile is failing it says cannot replace directory from within. Feb 18 04:51:45 empty_mind: which package? Feb 18 04:51:56 (i.e. give me more context around the error) Feb 18 04:52:01 pastebin is your friend Feb 18 04:52:27 rwhitby, see this for error output http://pastebin.com/883448 Feb 18 04:54:04 rm -rf sources/svn/gta01-kernel Feb 18 04:54:07 then try again Feb 18 04:57:55 rwhitby, here is what shows now http://pastebin.com/883452 Feb 18 05:00:26 are you sure that your "make setup" patched the linux-gta01_2.6.17.14.bb file properly? Feb 18 05:01:06 rwhitby, i am runnin make setup again Feb 18 05:01:40 rwhitby, should i pastebin the output of make setup ? Feb 18 05:02:01 pastebin your contents of linux-gta01_2.6.17.14.bb after make setup Feb 18 05:03:57 rwhitby, where do i find linux-gta* ? Feb 18 05:04:58 find is your friend Feb 18 05:05:04 start at oe/packages/linux/ Feb 18 05:06:39 rwhitby, pastin it Feb 18 05:07:38 rwhitby, http://pastebin.com/883457 Feb 18 05:09:26 bb -c clean the kernel package and try again Feb 18 05:12:40 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r1 10mokomakefile/ (branches/ releases/ trunk/ trunk/Makefile): MokoMakefile initial release Feb 18 05:12:51 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r2 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Makefile: relicensed as GPL, cause most of the patches will be to GPL'd code, so it's easier if everything is GPL. Feb 18 05:13:04 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r3 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Added initial patches required to reproduce the official documented build procedure. Feb 18 05:13:53 mickey|zzZZzz, LaF0rge: If you'd prefer for mokomakefile commits to not come here, just let me know. Feb 18 05:20:51 Hmm - anonymous access to projects. means that I can't push my latest MokoMakefile which uses that to get extra patches to make the build work. Feb 18 05:56:12 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r4 10mokomakefile/trunk/ (Makefile patches/openmoko-1004/openmoko-dates.patch): Makefile: modified to use a patches repository instead of patching things in the Makefile Feb 18 06:06:30 Anyone else having trouble with mtpaint during the build? (see: http://pastebin.com/883486). I've been using the mokomakefile which I updated a few minutes ago. Feb 18 06:06:46 as soon as the anonymous svn access to projects.om.org is fixed, I can release that new version Feb 18 06:07:34 rwhitby: Thanks (and thanks for the Makefile!) Feb 18 06:07:40 Lunved: ubuntu? running dash as /bin/sh? Feb 18 06:09:30 Lunved: mtpaint built fine here Feb 18 06:09:40 (Debian Etch) Feb 18 06:09:40 Ubuntu. Did you mean bash? If so yes - I'm guessing thats how it does it (I'm new to ubuntu (using linux for years though)) Feb 18 06:10:06 no, I mean dash. some distros have /bin/sh linked to dash instead of bash, and dash doesn't have most features. Feb 18 06:11:18 Yep /bin/sh is symlinked to dash Feb 18 06:12:02 Lunved did you update your monotone? Feb 18 06:13:03 Not since I did the OE getting started (built gpe and opie images successfully) Feb 18 06:13:21 ah.. which version is it? Feb 18 06:15:17 I dont know how to tell. I'm just running find now ... Feb 18 06:15:43 mtn --version Feb 18 06:16:04 find reports ./openembedded/packages/monotone/monotone-6_0.31.bb (amoung others). Is the a more authoritative way to tell? Feb 18 06:16:10 ta Feb 18 06:16:23 ).32 Feb 18 06:16:34 That would be 0.32 Feb 18 06:16:40 .32 should be recent enough Feb 18 06:17:56 Lunved: /bin/sh linked to dash is probably the problem Feb 18 06:18:17 rwhitby: Thanks, I'll give it a go. Feb 18 06:18:32 Lunved: and update the wiki if that fixes it (in the OE and your Distro page) Feb 18 06:19:43 Lunved: e.g. http://fragglet.livejournal.com/9110.html Feb 18 06:19:44 rwhitby: no problem Feb 18 07:04:54 morning Feb 18 07:05:02 morning Feb 18 07:05:14 Do you know what a "hense" is? Feb 18 07:05:19 on a cell phone? Feb 18 07:09:05 dnever heard Feb 18 07:09:47 ok, thx anyway. I'll ask the seller. Feb 18 07:10:55 mis-spelled "hence" maybe ;-) Feb 18 07:11:28 That might be Feb 18 07:33:23 rwhitby: I have an interest question if you dont mind: why is it that you recommend calling make seperately for each different target, rather than just in one make call with multiple targets? Feb 18 07:34:58 for make update-makefile, it needs to be separate, cause that could change the makefile. for the others it doesn't. Feb 18 07:36:12 rwhitby: Oh yeah ... (sorry to waste your time - I've learn't though...) Feb 18 07:48:34 rwhitby, another error http://pastebin.com/883523 ? do i need x11 development packae intalled on build machine ? Feb 18 07:48:35 If I had to edit a .bb file to make a download work during a build, what would be the responsible way of reporting the issue/fix? Feb 18 07:52:36 empty_mind: no, gernerally you don't need x11 installed, but the OE snapshot FIC uses has a bug that requires you to have x11-dev installed Feb 18 07:53:06 Lunved: add it to OE bugilla is it's from OE, add it to moko bugzilla if the recipe is from svn Feb 18 07:53:32 Lunved: but there's a 99% change it was already fixed, since the OE snapshot FIC uses is 2 months old Feb 18 07:54:58 Koen: thanks Feb 18 08:02:30 koen: I used the "browse tree" under OE and found the issues is still in the bb file. So its an OE thing right? (It looks to be DNS related so probably transient anyway ... \) Feb 18 08:02:51 Lunved: yes Feb 18 09:13:04 * rwhitby starts another openmoko-devel-image build from scratch to test repeatability Feb 18 09:24:13 * rwhitby finds the correct u-boot patches revision and patches uboot-gta01_svn.bb to use it. Feb 18 09:33:17 checking for GCONF_DBUS... configure: error: You need either ORBit or D-BUS for IPC Feb 18 09:33:20 gconf-osso Feb 18 09:33:22 any idea? Feb 18 09:34:07 * amarsh05 is unfortunately unable to attend next Tuesday's OLPC demo at LinuxSA... one of the more interesting projects along with OpenMoko and OpenGraphics Feb 18 09:46:36 amarsh05: I'll be going to that one. Feb 18 09:46:42 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r5 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-1004/ (linux-gta01.patch series uboot-gta01.patch): Patched u-boot bb file to grab a reasonable svn revision for the patches. Re-enabled u-boot in the kernel bb file. Feb 18 09:47:02 (and hopefully doing the same thing with the Neo/OpenMoko for the March meeting) Feb 18 09:48:41 ok, with that last patch, openmoko-devel-image builds from openmoko revision 1004. But I can't upload the MokoMakefile until anonymous svn access to projects.openmoko.org is fixed, cause I'm storing all the patches there (so that others can collaborate on maintaining MokoMakefile) Feb 18 09:49:23 BTW, if anyone wants to be part of the MokoMakefile project at projects.openmoko.org, just let me know. The main criteria for acceptance is "If you break something, you must know how to fix it". Feb 18 10:09:24 rwhitby, i am still fighting to integrate the openmoko parts in my existing oe ,, as i in a need to keep several builds in parallel ( am building also for some other pda and mips) when do you exspect openmoko tobe fully inside oe ( openmoko.conf distro ) Feb 18 10:17:37 rob_w: koen is handling that. Feb 18 10:18:59 rob_w: I also use OE for nslu2-linux stuff. All I do at the moment is just symlink the OE.mtn file and share the sources directory. Then I can keep all else separate and even build koen's OE latest openmoko builds as well as the mokomakefile official documented builds. Feb 18 10:21:31 rob_w: but I expect the moko core team will probably always work off a fixed OE mtn revision, updated regularly, rather than from OE head. At least if I was trying to build a business on software built from OE that's what I would do. Feb 18 10:22:00 http://news.com.com/SanDisk+trims+jobs+to+battle+falling+prices/2100-1047_3-6160263.html?tag=nefd.top Feb 18 10:22:04 of course, the MokoMakefile could help them do that :-) Feb 18 10:22:19 rwhitby: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1765 Feb 18 10:22:48 rwhitby: What's the easiest way to add that patch for us amd64 users? Feb 18 10:22:48 * fluffs will be back later. Feb 18 10:22:56 rwhitby: last I heard they want to use .dev without a fixed rev Feb 18 10:23:09 rwhitby: and make a branch once a release nears Feb 18 10:23:51 koen: yep, that's another possibility. I guess it depends on how many people they have internally who are not OE experts but need to be synched on a common build platform around the world. Feb 18 10:24:31 rwhitby: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=196 Feb 18 10:25:53 it will be interesting to see the degree to which a commercial company (like FIC/OpenMoko) is willing to give up control of commits to their working build database (OE) to people (like me) who have OE commit privs. Feb 18 10:26:21 rwhitby: see the distro-devel mailinglist archives Feb 18 10:26:35 koen: I've been subscribed to that since the start. Feb 18 10:27:56 I think Sean has been careful not to commit to anything in those messages. Feb 18 10:28:29 that's why we get him drunk at fosdem and have him sign contracts ;) Feb 18 10:29:09 rwhitby, now i am receiving this error after 3 hrs of build http://pastebin.com/883574 Feb 18 10:29:39 empty_mind: you don't have git Feb 18 10:29:51 which means you didn't follow OEandYourDistro Feb 18 10:30:00 since you didn't install openembedded-essential Feb 18 10:30:06 koen, i have git installed. I have used it in past Feb 18 10:30:25 koen, i did install openembedded-essential packge Feb 18 10:30:27 koen: seriously, there's huge things to think about for a company working with OE head - what if you (koen) have a huge disagreement with OpenMoko about some technical feature of Angstrom. Do you expect them to spend days arguing with you about it, or do you expect them to just fork and have something they control completely? Feb 18 10:31:14 koen, i have git and git-core installed Feb 18 10:31:47 hmm - I would have thought that error message would be pretty self explanatory - it even tells you the command to run to fix it. Feb 18 10:31:53 empty_mind: but obviously not installed properly Feb 18 10:32:07 rwhitby: users read error messages?!?!?! Feb 18 10:32:23 * rwhitby got the same error early on, and was thankful for the helpful message from Debian. Feb 18 10:33:37 The problem I currently have with the OE git fetcher, is that it uses a git option which is not available on the git in RHEL/CentOS (which is what the fastest machine I have available to me at work is running). Feb 18 10:33:42 rwhitby: I would expect the distro people from fic to have enough sense to decide what they want and know the cost of their decisions Feb 18 10:35:36 error messages that tell what to do are the worst. Feb 18 10:35:38 koen: exactly, so some types of CEOs might decided to lessen the risk of that cost being great and happening at just the wrong time in the project, by being cautious and not basing OM off Angstrom, but just "aligning" it with Angstrom (using the same base toolchain/policy/etc but not linking their distro decisions with Angstrom's distro decisions) Feb 18 10:35:47 obviously the program could have ran that command itself :P Feb 18 10:36:13 rwhitby: right Feb 18 10:36:47 rwhitby: as long as they base of something that is (and will be) supported in OE they shouldn't have much troubles Feb 18 10:36:54 Kero: I should just make MokoMakefile "aptitide purge git" if running on Debian ... Feb 18 10:37:37 koen: right - the nuance is basing it off the same basic things as Angstrom is based off, compared with basing it directly off Angstrom. Feb 18 10:38:48 in the former case, they have no problem if you suddenly change angstrom.conf incompatibly at a critical time in their project, whereas in the latter it could cause a cost to be incurred to backtrack the change for OM. Feb 18 10:39:30 openmoko: 03mickey * r1038 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (6 files in 3 dirs): oe/linux: cleanup and remove outdated files Feb 18 10:39:43 (and they can do that in OE head without getting into a commit war with you on angstrom.conf) Feb 18 10:39:44 well, the whole point of angstrom was not to make incompatible changes Feb 18 10:39:54 that's why it was created :) Feb 18 10:40:15 to avoind gcc3/gcc4 posixthreads/nptl oabi/eabi troubles Feb 18 10:40:16 rwhitby, i think it should be mentioned somewhere that moko needs git-sc instead of git.transition on debian Feb 18 10:40:19 avoid* Feb 18 10:40:40 empty_mind: feel free to update http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/OEandYourDistro Feb 18 10:40:40 rwhitby, my problem was solved once i switched to git-scm instead of git.transition Feb 18 10:40:53 rwhitby, doing it Feb 18 10:41:23 empty_mind: excellent. one of those rare people who does update wikis when they find something useful ... Feb 18 10:42:15 openmoko: 03mickey * r1039 10/trunk/oe/packages/s3c2410-utils/ (3 files in 2 dirs): oe: s3c2410-utils: remove no longer used recipes Feb 18 10:42:37 mickey|zzZZzz is sleep-committing Feb 18 10:42:38 mickey|zzZZzz is even dreaming commits ... Feb 18 10:42:41 scap Feb 18 10:42:44 snap Feb 18 10:42:52 mickeyl: good morning! Feb 18 10:42:54 *yawn* Feb 18 10:42:56 morning folks Feb 18 10:42:59 hey mickeyl Feb 18 10:43:42 mickeyl: re mokomakefile - will the core team want devs to stick with the 1004 revision documented in the build procedure on the wiki, or will the core team want devs to track the latest svn revs? Feb 18 10:44:03 the latter Feb 18 10:44:37 ok, so now I have a stable 1004 revision build in place with mokomakefile, I should work towards getting latest svn repeatable (if it's not already)? Feb 18 10:45:03 yeah, that'd be good Feb 18 10:45:23 after next week i'll do some changes to ease oe-sync Feb 18 10:45:30 are you still sticking with the same frozen OE revision (for the moment), or is a latter one used by the coreteam? Feb 18 10:46:01 same OE version Feb 18 10:46:17 need to have at least one constant Feb 18 10:46:19 ok, I'll kick off a svn head build ... Feb 18 10:46:55 mickeyl: btw, are you ok with my sending mokomakefile CIA messages to openmoko project @ cia? Feb 18 10:47:16 (module = mokomakefile, to keep them identifiably separate) Feb 18 10:47:27 rwhitby: sure. everything @ projects is absolutely on topic here Feb 18 10:47:44 can you make a wiki page for guys adding a project how to enable this? Feb 18 10:48:12 just checking to make sure, cause they will intermingle at cia.navi.cx/projects/openmoko - I might affect your stats there :-) Feb 18 10:48:33 heh, no worries Feb 18 10:49:18 i really see openmoko as a project covering the whole stack -- which means there is no difference in value between our repo and others Feb 18 10:50:56 mickeyl: got a suggested top-level category for stuff to do with setting up p.om.org projects? Feb 18 10:51:09 (for the wiki.om.org page?) Feb 18 10:51:24 hmm Feb 18 10:51:26 Ecosystem? Feb 18 10:51:33 Contributions Feb 18 10:51:36 3rd Pary Feb 18 10:51:39 Party, even Feb 18 10:51:41 pick one :) Feb 18 10:52:15 * rwhitby has to work out how to add a section on the top-level page, as opposed to editing an existing section ... Feb 18 10:52:19 mickeyl: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/the-short-and-sweet-guide-to-building-openmoko-for-ngstr-m Feb 18 10:52:48 concise Feb 18 10:52:50 :) Feb 18 10:53:08 mickeyl: do you have objections to DISTRO=openmoko in .dev not using SRCDATE_foo = "now", but the default? Feb 18 10:53:14 koen: now all you have to do is wrap a Makefile around it ... ;-) Feb 18 10:53:32 koen: for .dev it's surely ok Feb 18 10:53:46 mickeyl: ok, now I can add openmoko.conf :) Feb 18 10:53:49 i don't want it on our internal buildhost for now, but in OE it's good Feb 18 10:54:01 mickeyl: what is the rationale behind "now" for the external devs release? Feb 18 10:54:15 for openmoko developers svnnow makes sense, but not for external devs Feb 18 10:54:26 (i.e. I've changed it to 20070213 for mokomakefile rev 1004) Feb 18 10:54:41 rwhitby: making sure everytime you trigger an image, the most recent versions are checkout out without having to touch recipes or remove stamps or issue rebuild Feb 18 10:55:01 mickeyl: no confidence in PR updating, hey? Feb 18 10:55:31 well, an svn commit of an application typically doesn't automatically increase PR Feb 18 10:55:52 [different people] Feb 18 10:55:57 nod Feb 18 10:56:32 so you have no problem with koen and I choosing reasonable non-now dates for external devs then ... Feb 18 10:56:47 not at all, sounds like a good plan Feb 18 10:56:54 ok, cool. Feb 18 10:58:17 mickeyl: is LaF0rge the projects.om.org admin too? Feb 18 10:58:31 mostly, yeah Feb 18 10:58:41 i guess i have access too, but he's familiar with the installation Feb 18 10:59:06 ok, I've reported anonymous svn access (via svn:// and web viewcvs interface) both not working. Feb 18 10:59:23 but realise it may not be top of his priority list :-) Feb 18 10:59:31 mickeyl: openmoko.conf is in, so the FIC bbcollection is now obsolete ;) Feb 18 10:59:59 while you're at it Feb 18 11:00:07 you may want to merge our tslib patch Feb 18 11:00:19 there was a patch? Feb 18 11:00:20 which solves the /dev/input/mice issues once and for all Feb 18 11:01:04 ah Feb 18 11:01:09 I missed that one Feb 18 11:01:27 got lost in the spurious diffs due to the tslib refactor in OE Feb 18 11:05:58 CM: that x86_64 patch is to site/x86_64-linux in OE, not in the openmoko svn. Has it been committed to OE head? Feb 18 11:06:37 * rwhitby is careful that MokoMakefile does not create forks. Feb 18 11:10:49 mickeyl: I nominate revision 89cd2556ac06a9a9dd5fe232a734dec9569772da as The Next Blessed Revision For Openmoko(TM) Feb 18 11:11:24 * aloril2 pimps new command again: Feb 18 11:11:33 faq? Feb 18 11:11:34 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 18 11:13:46 rwhitby, wiki updated Feb 18 11:19:33 89cd.... is that current HEAD? :) Feb 18 11:22:52 moin Feb 18 11:40:19 counter Feb 18 11:40:20 P0: a week, 3 days 23:46:06 (4.990 - 10.990 days); P1: 26.990 - 41.990; P2: 194.990 - 224.990 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (354) Feb 18 11:43:44 mickey|slides: it's the revision that has openmoko.conf and the tslib patch Feb 18 11:47:36 help Feb 18 11:48:45 * rwhitby throws a flotation ring Feb 18 11:53:22 hey, is there SDL available for openmoko? Feb 18 11:53:36 it would be quite usefull for porting games... Feb 18 11:54:01 Kaco: yes SDL is available Feb 18 11:54:47 cool Feb 18 11:55:01 koen, you know a lot about openmoko :) Feb 18 11:55:09 no, I google a lot Feb 18 11:55:13 haha Feb 18 11:55:27 i'm lazy to do that, that's why i'm asking here ... but let me check it myself Feb 18 12:22:32 why are the gpio assingments still secret ? Feb 18 12:22:38 They are not. Feb 18 12:22:42 They are on the wiki. Feb 18 12:22:59 But, subject to change. Feb 18 12:23:00 oh i get it Feb 18 12:29:10 hmm i2c .. i need to get know this better Feb 18 12:33:41 hello :) Feb 18 12:33:53 howdy Feb 18 12:34:18 everything allright in here? Feb 18 12:34:31 * Stephmw looks around Feb 18 12:34:44 :) Feb 18 12:34:45 everything looks ok, the wiki is proving popular :) Feb 18 12:35:03 yeah, from the moment it opened it was loaded Feb 18 12:35:39 * SpeedEvil is unsure if he's editing too much on the wiki. Feb 18 12:43:41 users Feb 18 12:44:26 ? Feb 18 12:44:40 hi LuitvD Feb 18 12:44:56 hi sixfeet Feb 18 12:45:07 Sorry forget the slash ;-) Feb 18 12:45:48 SpeedEvil, u'r busy writer :D Feb 18 12:48:34 yay, my first edit in the wiki :D Feb 18 12:49:41 so I am away skiing now :> I hope it will have a little bit of snow in the alps :) Feb 18 12:50:08 get the rest of the linuxtogowiki tranksported LuitvD :D Feb 18 12:50:30 denis^da: lol, that's a lot of work... Feb 18 12:50:58 denis^da, hehe na dann viel spass Feb 18 12:51:01 the edit I made was correcting a typing-error :P Feb 18 12:51:11 i do little of transport too Feb 18 13:03:08 I'm probably going to tonight go over the linuxtogo wiki, and add bits of the information in it to the wiki. Not copy. Feb 18 13:05:55 oldwiki have a lot of good ideas, for example /Ideas/Games Feb 18 13:06:29 :P Feb 18 13:06:49 mikesh: first thing I looked at on that wiki :P Feb 18 13:07:14 SpeedEvil, it would probably be nice in the old wiki to mention what has been transferred already Feb 18 13:07:19 it would be great to play OpenTTD in bus/tram/underground :) Feb 18 13:09:23 mikesh: especially because of the neo's resolution :) Feb 18 13:09:38 LuitvD: my actual phone is ngage, i just love playing on mobile Feb 18 13:10:01 LuitvD: yes, on qvga it is not possible, but vga is great Feb 18 13:10:04 mikesh: the ngage model that you have to put to your head vertically? :P Feb 18 13:10:30 LuitvD: yes, it looks little bit strange Feb 18 13:10:35 lol Feb 18 13:10:52 this is what it would look like for the resolution http://www.openttd.org/images/screens/Development/frontfingburg_central.png Feb 18 13:10:54 :) Feb 18 13:10:54 nice Feb 18 13:11:21 cool Feb 18 13:11:44 I love the neo's screen :) Feb 18 13:11:54 it looks like my first time of play TT(D) at 486 Feb 18 13:12:09 :) Feb 18 13:13:30 gloop would also be a cool game to have in openmoko... Feb 18 13:14:03 or BRIDGE BUILDER :D:D:D Feb 18 13:14:17 that'd be totally my game :D Feb 18 13:15:07 bridge builder/pontifex Feb 18 13:15:12 that'd be so cool Feb 18 13:15:46 but it is not opensource, isnt it? Feb 18 13:16:04 I don't think so... Feb 18 13:16:20 let's kick it's developer to turn to the FOSS side... Feb 18 13:16:24 :) Feb 18 13:16:41 my friend tried to make his own bridge builder Feb 18 13:16:44 in java :) Feb 18 13:17:05 why in java :( Feb 18 13:17:16 * LuitvD really doesn't like java Feb 18 13:18:56 xkr47: true - as I won't be putting 1:1 pages - but scattering the information in the new wiki where it's appropriate. Feb 18 13:20:26 LuitvD: Java is currently the best game platform (as in portable/easy to distribute/secure) for mobile devices Feb 18 13:20:46 LuitvD: do you know Pingus game? its clone of lemmings Feb 18 13:20:51 Stephmw: I know... but it's slow, big and it's code is ugly Feb 18 13:21:00 LuitvD: not on mobile :) Feb 18 13:21:02 Stephmw: this is just because mobile devices used to only provide j2em Feb 18 13:21:05 *j2me Feb 18 13:21:12 mikesh: just my thoughts, lemmings on the neo :) Feb 18 13:21:27 dottedmag: they don't provide a great deal more atm though - not across manufacturers Feb 18 13:21:33 As a penalty, every time you kill a lemming, it nukes an mp3. Feb 18 13:21:37 :) Feb 18 13:21:40 dottedmag: flash is only just starting to be on everything Feb 18 13:22:15 SpeedEvil: every time you kill a lemming, it toggles the gsm enable status :) Feb 18 13:22:38 Stephmw: flash is proprietary. forget about it. Feb 18 13:23:04 Stephmw: adobe won't manage to provide flash players for every device Feb 18 13:23:04 lol, why not stick to GL(x)? Feb 18 13:23:41 * LuitvD wonders wether the flash9 libflashplayer.so works on openmoko/neo1973 Feb 18 13:24:11 No. Feb 18 13:24:20 .so are shared objects - libraries. Feb 18 13:24:26 These are per CPU only. Feb 18 13:24:30 dottedmag: so, other than Java and Flash, what else are you proposing? Feb 18 13:24:44 Stephmw: SDL? Feb 18 13:24:45 The neo does not use an x86 compt CPU. Feb 18 13:24:52 ah, right... :P Feb 18 13:24:53 dottedmag: good luck getting that on Nokia devices Feb 18 13:25:00 LuitvD, because we like java Feb 18 13:25:01 should've known that Feb 18 13:25:17 dottedmag: game authors won't write games for platforms unless that platform is on more than a few phones Feb 18 13:25:22 xkr47: :( Feb 18 13:25:46 Stephmw: you completely miss the point of compatibility with desktops. Feb 18 13:25:46 I've been coding java at work for 8 years Feb 18 13:26:05 dottedmag: not really, compatibility with desktops breaks down with screen size Feb 18 13:26:07 I don't know why people don't like it Feb 18 13:26:16 dottedmag: most j2se apps' UI just won't work on a phone Feb 18 13:26:17 they just think it sucks Feb 18 13:26:24 xkr47: because we are C programmers Feb 18 13:26:34 I'm a C programmer too Feb 18 13:26:38 and Perl, Lisp, Bash Feb 18 13:26:43 so it doesn't explain :) Feb 18 13:26:53 * Stephmw is language agnostic Feb 18 13:26:56 * LuitvD is a C, PHP, Python and Ruby programmer :) Feb 18 13:26:57 xkr47: well, Java is not very expressive language. Feb 18 13:26:59 xkr47: ok, then because most Java fan boys are fulla shit :-) Feb 18 13:27:08 Stephmw: even with VGA screen? Feb 18 13:27:14 dottedmag: absolutely Feb 18 13:27:26 xkr47: claims like RUNS FASTER THAN C (which seeing as Java is written in C) is plainly untrue Feb 18 13:27:32 dottedmag: the problem isn't the software, it's the UI developers Feb 18 13:27:38 XorA, ok.. well hope you don't consider me full of shit now also :) Feb 18 13:27:45 dottedmag: when your app is designed for 800x600+, it just plain wont fit Feb 18 13:27:46 Stephmw: well. Let's kill all such UI developers? ;) Feb 18 13:28:09 dottedmag: it just takes specialist designers and developers for mobile devices Feb 18 13:28:14 xkr47: nah, I happened to work on Javacard for 5 years, and had misfortune to work with some "experts" Feb 18 13:28:24 XorA, there's always FUD, but you just have to learn to filter it out Feb 18 13:28:38 XorA: you poor, poor man... Javacard is perhaps one of the least publicised atrocities Feb 18 13:29:09 Stephmw: it would be ok if a) sun hired an embedded guy, b) sun hired an embedded guy c) sun hired an embedded guy Feb 18 13:29:35 * xkr47 uses java when performance is not the most important thing Feb 18 13:29:49 instead they think that running Javacard on Java on Solaris is somehow the same as an 8 bit micro Feb 18 13:29:52 * xkr47 uses perl when quick hack is te most important thing Feb 18 13:30:01 * xkr47 uses C when performance is the most important .. Feb 18 13:30:01 etc Feb 18 13:30:09 and we hired these mongs and killed my last company Feb 18 13:30:22 XorA, don't blame java for that Feb 18 13:30:34 xkr47: performance is always important... Feb 18 13:30:51 :S Feb 18 13:30:56 LuitvD, ok.. well if it performs well enough with java... Feb 18 13:31:00 xkr47: I dont, just Sun and Fan Boys Feb 18 13:31:58 * Stephmw wonders if anyone in here really qualifies as a Sun fanboy Feb 18 13:32:21 openmoko: 03laforge * r1040 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/defconfig-2.6.20-fic-gta01: Enable CONFIG_VTUN=m (Closes: #198) Feb 18 13:33:07 :) Feb 18 13:33:15 does anybody know how to use openmoko in either xoo or Xnest ? Feb 18 13:33:16 Openmoko fanboys ;) Feb 18 13:41:35 lol, on the mailing somebody outputted the xdpyinfo containing this: Feb 18 13:41:35 resolution: 75x75 dots per inch Feb 18 13:41:39 XD Feb 18 13:42:35 using fingers on 9x9 Go board probably works, but 19x19 Go might be harder, here is one idea: put finger down, board is zoomed and if wrong intersection is selected, move finger until right one is selected, lift finger: stone is put on board and screen is Feb 18 13:42:56 back to show whole board Feb 18 13:43:09 :P Feb 18 13:44:06 lol, I fit all-but-one of the neo phase 1 requirements that mickey has put on the wiki :P Feb 18 13:44:26 (the one I don't fit in is the 'have $350' part :P Feb 18 13:48:16 aloril2, yeah, something like that Feb 18 13:50:11 counter Feb 18 13:50:11 P0: a week, 3 days 21:36:13 (4.900 - 10.900 days); P1: 26.900 - 41.900; P2: 194.900 - 224.900 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (355) Feb 18 13:51:22 a month for p1 :D Feb 18 13:53:13 In about 11 days, my folks will have a bloody hard time trying to wipe that big-ass smile out of my face which has been there all day long =) Feb 18 13:56:10 CoreDump|home: I thought we'd agreed that Neo1973 as a sextoy wasn't till 1H2008? Feb 18 13:57:54 Stephmw: one can dream :) Feb 18 14:11:53 my soldering iron smells funny... Feb 18 14:24:22 LuitvD: stop using it for heating your coffee :-P Feb 18 14:47:52 Hello. Is international calling a significant expense for anyone on the list? Feb 18 14:49:12 Thinking about an app that would intercept a dialed intnational number, dial the local VoIP access number under the covers, and then complete the call. Feb 18 14:53:04 DukeOfURL: that should probably be mentioned on the dialeer page under 'least cost routing'. Feb 18 14:53:26 It sounds like usually VOIP over GPRS is horribly inadequate though. Feb 18 14:53:32 Due to average delays. Feb 18 14:53:34 Yes, I was looking for applications in the wiki Feb 18 14:53:47 assuming gprs is cheaper than international calling Feb 18 14:53:57 should the neo1973 just charge off of miniusb, or does it do something tricky? Feb 18 14:54:08 Noooooo. Dial a local number over GSM, from there it's VoIP. Feb 18 14:54:29 Ah. Feb 18 14:54:30 doesn't that mess up caller-iD? Feb 18 14:54:37 Clint: yes. Feb 18 14:54:42 Possibly Feb 18 14:54:52 SpeedEvil: so if it doesn't, what's likely to be fucked? Feb 18 14:54:57 Is there a site map of the wiki? Feb 18 14:55:14 Clint: it charges off any source of 5V - the software may not by default switch to fast charge mode without authorisation from the host. Feb 18 14:55:56 Clint: but there will probably be a checkbox 'if host does not respond in 10s, switch to high charge rate and assume it's a dumb charger'. Feb 18 14:56:01 is fast charge mode 500mA? Feb 18 14:56:08 Up to. Feb 18 14:56:51 I'm unsure if this means that it's a simple linear regulator that will charge the phone fully from empty in 3.5h, or one with a SMPS, that can charge it in 2.5h Feb 18 14:57:25 so it may have insufficient battery power to charge then? Feb 18 14:57:32 No... Feb 18 14:57:44 The USB spec says you can't take more than 100mA without consent. Feb 18 14:57:56 As this may reset unpowered loaded hubs. Feb 18 14:58:11 For powered hubs, they can supply 500mA. Feb 18 14:58:37 and it will charge off of 100mA, or refuse like a blackberry? Feb 18 14:58:46 It charges at 100mA as I understand. Feb 18 14:58:57 It can be via software switched to the higher rate. Feb 18 14:59:01 then something is broken here Feb 18 14:59:05 Though this may crash some hubs. Feb 18 14:59:10 Not really. Feb 18 14:59:25 well, it's not charging Feb 18 14:59:41 It charges at 100mA as I understand, from any 5V source. Feb 18 15:00:14 This will take 12h. By default it will not charge at 500mA unless the host USB device says 500mA is OK. Feb 18 15:00:30 heh.. cool, my blog has a hit from pmswout.pcg.fic.com.tw Feb 18 15:00:34 Because that can cause bus resets, which will corrupt plugged in USB hard drives for example. Feb 18 15:02:14 I probably need to add this tot he wiki. Feb 18 15:04:50 wow, it booted and X failed to start properly Feb 18 15:05:00 so i guess it's getting power now Feb 18 15:07:56 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery_Charger Feb 18 15:08:12 Oh - you have hardware. Feb 18 15:08:29 either that or a cheap taiwanese knockoff Feb 18 15:08:39 it's not mine; i am merely borrowing it Feb 18 15:08:42 :) Feb 18 15:08:49 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery_Charger Feb 18 15:10:10 well, it's clearly getting power and maintaining charge now Feb 18 15:10:15 though it wasn't yesterday Feb 18 15:10:38 If the battery is totally drained, many devices will need some time plugged in till they'llboot. Feb 18 15:10:54 is there a handy prebuilt image i can put on this thing over usb? Feb 18 15:11:08 I recall seeing some on the wiki. Feb 18 15:11:27 However, I have not got hardware, and am waiting for hard disk so I can install emulator. Feb 18 15:11:56 Is the battery stamped 'neo' or is it from something else? Feb 18 15:12:19 There was wodering yesterday if it's available on ebay, for $5, or $40 from FIC. Feb 18 15:12:59 FIC, First International Computer, Model: GTC-01/GTA-01, Standard Battery PAck, 1200mAh Li-ion, Rechargeable Battery: 3.7V Feb 18 15:13:10 then silly cautionary warnings Feb 18 15:13:21 Can you eat the battery? :) Feb 18 15:13:31 yes Feb 18 15:13:40 Because I always do that if the label doesn't say not to. Feb 18 15:13:47 you're in luck Feb 18 15:17:21 Warning: sight of this item may cause deformities in unborn children Feb 18 15:20:01 opencx Feb 18 15:24:36 [16:46] Can you eat the battery? :) Feb 18 15:24:39 everything can be eaten Feb 18 15:24:45 but some things only once ;) Feb 18 15:28:40 ah well, it's dead again Feb 18 15:28:51 :( Feb 18 15:28:56 Clint: what is? Feb 18 15:29:01 It sounds like it's possibly charging at the low rate. Feb 18 15:29:12 Clint: Do you own a multimeter? Feb 18 15:29:20 i do, but i am not at my home Feb 18 15:29:38 What's it connected to? Feb 18 15:29:53 my laptop Feb 18 15:29:54 LuitvD: Clint has a borrowed Neo. Feb 18 15:29:57 usb drivers are unhappy Feb 18 15:29:59 lol Feb 18 15:30:08 Is it the only USB device on the laptop port? Feb 18 15:30:15 yes Feb 18 15:30:15 usb 1-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 3 Feb 18 15:30:15 usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -71 Feb 18 15:30:15 usb 1-1: device descriptor read/64, error -71 Feb 18 15:30:19 repeat for addresses 4 and 5 Feb 18 15:30:28 and 6 Feb 18 15:30:38 Does it say anything about overcurrent? Feb 18 15:30:38 what's going on with that device? Feb 18 15:31:12 do you want to speed-charge it or something? :s Feb 18 15:31:15 in dmesg, no Feb 18 15:31:29 last boot there were some issues with loading and unloading cdc_ether though Feb 18 15:31:44 that also coincides with the neo being on, i imagine Feb 18 15:32:04 Has it been left with the neo switched off, connected to the (on) USB port overnight? Feb 18 15:32:09 no Feb 18 15:32:32 it was unplugged until i said "wow, it's booting" Feb 18 15:32:51 My guess is that it's not properly talking to your USB for some reason. So it's not switching up to high rate. Feb 18 15:32:52 it had been plugged into other devices yesterday, for varied amounts of time Feb 18 15:33:23 And it draws slightly from the battery in that state, even plugged in, when on. Feb 18 15:33:38 switching ports, just for kicks Feb 18 15:33:44 same errors Feb 18 15:33:52 Do you have a desktop? Feb 18 15:33:56 Or a powered hub? Feb 18 15:34:17 no, i should be near one later on today though Feb 18 15:34:25 Annoying. Feb 18 15:34:45 yep, annoying that i can't keep this too :) Feb 18 15:34:47 If it was me, I'd try turning it off, and leaving it plugged in for an hour, that should give 1/12th charge. Feb 18 15:35:00 Ish. Feb 18 15:35:13 i couldn't even figure out how to turn it off when it was on Feb 18 15:35:18 :P Feb 18 15:35:24 any duration of power-button holding made it reboot Feb 18 15:35:36 Clint: ever heard of the command 'halt' ? Feb 18 15:35:37 :P Feb 18 15:35:42 Pulling the battery generally works :) Feb 18 15:35:43 LuitvD: with my magic keyboard? Feb 18 15:35:53 Clint: lol, possibly Feb 18 15:36:11 okay, yanking the battery just in case Feb 18 15:36:23 :P Feb 18 15:37:05 re-plugged, the display started flashing, now stopped Feb 18 15:38:33 flashing? Feb 18 15:38:45 like... regularily going on and off? :P Feb 18 15:38:50 yes Feb 18 15:38:57 or just on and off again? Feb 18 15:39:03 a few times Feb 18 15:39:08 lol Feb 18 15:39:10 that's odd Feb 18 15:39:10 Probably try to boot, can't get enough power, crash. Feb 18 15:39:19 Happens with some phones too. Feb 18 15:39:22 must be a feature of the lcd backlight driver Feb 18 15:39:32 SpeedEvil: most likely not that... Feb 18 15:39:44 the chip really doesn't need that much power Feb 18 15:39:53 and the lcd backlight even less... Feb 18 15:39:54 so...how do I get one then? Feb 18 15:39:56 No, but the backlight probably does. Feb 18 15:40:05 shingoki: $350 in 'late march'. Feb 18 15:40:07 shingoki: pay 350$ and wait :P Feb 18 15:40:30 hm, late march isn't too bad, where do I pay? Feb 18 15:40:37 Not announced yet. Feb 18 15:41:08 you'd think they would fix "openmoko.com" to redirect to "www.openmoko.com", I thought the site was down for a while Feb 18 15:41:09 lol Feb 18 15:41:26 I saw some pictures though, it looks sexy :) Feb 18 15:41:39 that's odd... openmoko.com used to work... Feb 18 15:41:41 350$, tax included? :D Feb 18 15:41:43 I hope they do one with white main body, and some colour other than orange at the edges, maybe a nice dark grey Feb 18 15:41:46 rd_: no Feb 18 15:41:51 rd_: most likely not Feb 18 15:41:52 LuitvD, hehe Feb 18 15:41:55 :D Feb 18 15:42:01 i do hope so :P Feb 18 15:42:12 $350 for a phone like that is pretty cheap Feb 18 15:42:13 but I don't expect it to be including taxes Feb 18 15:42:26 Have they said what colours they will do? Feb 18 15:42:34 pink Feb 18 15:42:37 shingoki: yes it is... compared to a comparable (open source) phone :P Feb 18 15:42:45 this one is orange and white Feb 18 15:42:54 you got one? Feb 18 15:42:56 thresh: nice pink ain't ugly :) Feb 18 15:43:02 shingoki: only temporarily Feb 18 15:43:07 cool Feb 18 15:43:10 I don't think it includes taxes, but still, not a bad price Feb 18 15:43:19 Have you got an impression of battery life? Feb 18 15:43:22 shingoki, yeah, but no warranty and/or customer service Feb 18 15:43:26 mjr: how can you tell? Feb 18 15:43:39 great, i get a new usb device every second now Feb 18 15:43:40 I think it's been mentioned on-list sometime Feb 18 15:43:42 rd_: no warranty? Feb 18 15:43:45 customer service is normally useless, and I assume they will take back defective ones Feb 18 15:44:01 I'm not sure it's even legal to sell something that you won't replace if defective Feb 18 15:44:05 LuitvD, think so .. since it's developer phone? Feb 18 15:44:34 rd_: good thinking Feb 18 15:45:03 but I bet the P2 devices do come with warrenty... Feb 18 15:45:05 unless you are apple Feb 18 15:45:12 s/warrent/warrant/ Feb 18 15:45:14 LuitvD meant: but I bet the P2 devices do come with warranty... Feb 18 15:45:17 P2 is the one late in the year? Feb 18 15:45:53 shingoki: something like that... most likely Feb 18 15:45:59 and glamourous edition with ponies and stars Feb 18 15:46:08 shingoki: if all goes as planned... Feb 18 15:46:08 the orange and white would be fine Feb 18 15:46:18 I don't mind, as long as it doesn't have any silver plastic Feb 18 15:46:21 i'd prefer the 'charcoal' version :) Feb 18 15:46:33 matte black plastic, that's the way :) Feb 18 15:46:33 why no silver plastic? Feb 18 15:46:43 openmoko: 03laforge * r1041 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta01-core.patch gta01-pcf50606.patch series): reorder to make sure PCF50606 driver is present before GTA01 support is added, since the latter requires the former. Feb 18 15:46:44 sweaty? Feb 18 15:46:49 silver plastic is the most horrible looking substance on earth Feb 18 15:46:55 thankfully it seems to be on its way out Feb 18 15:47:11 lol, luckily black is replacing chrome Feb 18 15:47:11 because after 6 months it looks like grey plastic that has been attacked with some glue and tinsel Feb 18 15:47:31 my palm pda still looks nice and shiny Feb 18 15:47:34 yeah lots of things are black and white now Feb 18 15:47:43 hello from russia Feb 18 15:47:44 if it's an older palm, it is probably metal? Feb 18 15:47:45 shingoki: not black + white, black + silver :P Feb 18 15:47:55 shingoki: nope, it's chromed plastic :P Feb 18 15:48:20 shingoki: the Palm Tungsten|E2 Feb 18 15:48:21 well, that's leaving aside the fact that even new silver plastic doesn't look nice, it just doesn't look as bad as it will later Feb 18 15:48:28 I was sure the tungsten had a metal case Feb 18 15:48:29 Chapay: hello from russia Feb 18 15:48:33 I never had one though Feb 18 15:48:38 Chapay: hello from russia Feb 18 15:48:43 where i can down load openmoco? and i can install it on PC !? Feb 18 15:48:49 hello from russia? Feb 18 15:49:02 thresh: dottedmag Наши в городе !? Feb 18 15:49:14 lol Feb 18 15:49:15 chapay wiki.openmoko.org Feb 18 15:49:16 Chapay: use english here. It's impolite. Feb 18 15:49:33 ja joh, ik ga toch ook niet opeens nederlands praten :P Feb 18 15:49:33 dottedmag: ok sorry Feb 18 15:49:49 dottedmag: using english here is impolite? Feb 18 15:49:56 woglinde: may be get url Feb 18 15:50:07 * LuitvD said "Yeah, I'm not talking dutch here either am I?" in Dutch Feb 18 15:50:07 nbd: lol :) Feb 18 15:50:19 nbd: well seen :P Feb 18 15:50:26 Hee, boeit mij niet! Feb 18 15:50:46 SuN: lol Feb 18 15:51:09 :( irc is not good ... i go use google :( Feb 18 15:51:13 chapay you should read the wiki Feb 18 15:51:23 lol @ Chapay Feb 18 15:51:32 Are there any good pictures of the front of the white and orange phone? I can only find pics of the back :( Feb 18 15:51:32 You're right, IRC is the most horrible search engine on the web. Feb 18 15:51:38 well, and the innards Feb 18 15:51:39 woglinde: is so long//// Feb 18 15:51:39 any idea how much will they sell for the "Hacker's Lunchbox" toolkit? Feb 18 15:51:43 woglinde: is so long... Feb 18 15:51:46 Chapay: go to wiki.openmoko.org... you can find all you need right there Feb 18 15:51:53 Does have search though. Feb 18 15:52:14 chapay only the download adress would you go much further Feb 18 15:52:24 wouldnt Feb 18 15:52:50 woglinde: ok Feb 18 15:52:51 Chapay, check this first http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 18 15:52:59 Almost, add one more verb and you're there. Feb 18 15:52:59 meh, I want to go to the FOSDEM beer event... :( Feb 18 15:53:33 SuN: ? Feb 18 15:53:53 Referring to woglinde's "correction" :) Feb 18 15:54:00 ah Feb 18 15:56:05 hmm, the Openmoko project should attend for google's Summer of Code Feb 18 15:56:15 Good idea! Feb 18 15:56:25 that'd boost the productivity Feb 18 15:56:44 http://www.pdastreet.com/articles/2007/2/2007-2-13-3GSM-Screen-Shots.html <- has that been posted yet? Feb 18 15:56:51 hm dont know if would Feb 18 15:56:55 Clint, hope things sort out Feb 18 15:57:38 SuN: don't know... Feb 18 15:57:53 SuN: It's not as nice as Openmoko :P Feb 18 15:58:38 Maybe not, but it can be an inspiration. Feb 18 15:58:40 <[ATM]NS> Hi all! Feb 18 15:58:44 Hi Feb 18 15:59:02 'llo Feb 18 15:59:04 It looks a lot like EZX at first glance. Feb 18 15:59:04 <[ATM]NS> I have a simple question: does anyone of you know when OpenMoko will be released to the public?? Feb 18 15:59:15 SuN: what's EZX? Feb 18 15:59:18 <[ATM]NS> I cant wait to get it :-) Feb 18 15:59:19 THe phone? September. THe source? Now. Feb 18 15:59:28 <[ATM]NS> TY Feb 18 15:59:34 LuitvD: the ui running on Motorola Linux phones Feb 18 15:59:37 ah Feb 18 16:00:45 Hm, a Friese hacker. Feb 18 16:01:00 Frysk? Feb 18 16:01:05 Yup Feb 18 16:01:30 Way to show your progress, by the way. 4 lousy screenshots. Feb 18 16:01:48 SuN: they demoed it on real hardware and gave away funny thsirts Feb 18 16:01:57 Ah, alright. Feb 18 16:04:22 SuN: http://www.openembedded.org/~zecke/alp.jpg Feb 18 16:04:32 am I the first to mention Summer of Code on Openmoko? :S Feb 18 16:04:43 Mirrored? Feb 18 16:04:55 SuN: sure Feb 18 16:05:02 not a word about it on neither the mailing lists nor the wiki Feb 18 16:05:10 SuN: you need to fix it yourself Feb 18 16:05:20 The shirt Feb 18 16:05:22 ? Feb 18 16:05:54 SuN: this is the shirt. And it only looks mirrored to you Feb 18 16:06:02 I dunno, closed mobile Linux solutions just don't turn me on like they used to. Feb 18 16:06:47 I can read mirrored text, no problem. Was just wondering if that's how they released the shirts. Feb 18 16:06:58 SuN: no, sadly not Feb 18 16:07:01 lol Feb 18 16:07:17 there should be a mirrored openmoko shirt ! Feb 18 16:07:30 okomnepo! Feb 18 16:07:30 :) Feb 18 16:07:41 with the bang on the other side Feb 18 16:08:16 * dottedmag dreams about either symmetrical phone, or phone which has the left-handed variant... Feb 18 16:08:29 SuN: like this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/7/74/Neo.png Feb 18 16:08:40 (that one is upside down :P ) Feb 18 16:09:23 * SuN can't read that Feb 18 16:09:35 Ahh, now I see it. Feb 18 16:10:12 sun, rotate 180 degrees Feb 18 16:10:14 DOesn't that say open mofo, though? Feb 18 16:10:33 SuN: if it does to you, then yes Feb 18 16:10:41 SuN: the K is somewhat deformed Feb 18 16:11:03 it's just wide Feb 18 16:11:07 it's not deformed :) Feb 18 16:11:08 SuN: nice thing to have on a shirt, not? Feb 18 16:11:18 but the FIC logo on the back reveals the orientation Feb 18 16:11:19 xkr47: it's an odd font Feb 18 16:11:28 Yeah, though I would prefer it to be normal orientation. Feb 18 16:11:43 xkr47: i mean. just the "open moko" part :P Feb 18 16:11:57 to confuse people that don't know what it stands for :P Feb 18 16:12:02 Yeah, I don't want people trying to touch my tummy. Feb 18 16:12:14 SuN: not? why not? Feb 18 16:12:20 :P Feb 18 16:12:41 Selective people, sure. But not shabby old hackers and the likes :) Feb 18 16:12:44 :P Feb 18 16:14:16 touch screen... is that like man overboard ? Feb 18 16:14:16 :P Feb 18 16:14:26 or make love :P Feb 18 16:14:43 * LuitvD likes this manpage: http://burningsmell.org/man_overboard.png Feb 18 16:15:37 touch: cannot touch `screen': Permission denied Feb 18 16:15:45 lol Feb 18 16:16:57 make: *** No rule to make target `love'. Stop. Feb 18 16:17:00 :P Feb 18 16:17:14 make tea, not love Feb 18 16:17:19 :P Feb 18 16:18:06 thresh: love == war? Feb 18 16:18:27 xkr47: yeah, well, regardless i intend to get my own when possible Feb 18 16:19:13 Hmm. Buying Interest List has hit 50. Feb 18 16:19:14 Clint, me too.. if you report these problems to the bug tracking system maybe they can fix or document them until the phase 1 release.. Feb 18 16:19:26 * xkr47 is 34 :) or at least I was when I added myself.. :P Feb 18 16:19:31 SpeedEvil: where's that list? Feb 18 16:19:36 The wiki. Feb 18 16:19:41 where on the wiki :P Feb 18 16:19:42 search "buying" Feb 18 16:19:45 I'll attend :P Feb 18 16:19:47 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List Feb 18 16:19:58 thnx Feb 18 16:20:21 xkr47: well, if i have the time and resources, i intend to get the battery charged in an external charger, then get a new rootfs on the thing Feb 18 16:20:28 but i have to give it back relatively soon Feb 18 16:20:35 can anyone else see the notes I added in the remarks column ?-) Feb 18 16:20:45 No. Feb 18 16:20:48 Everyone else can. Feb 18 16:21:04 great Feb 18 16:21:16 Oh - the unicode things. Feb 18 16:21:27 On one computer, half render. Feb 18 16:21:31 On the other computer, the other half render. Feb 18 16:21:39 :) Feb 18 16:21:51 it's a highly adaptive tune ;) Feb 18 16:23:54 lol, editing conflict 3 times (A) Feb 18 16:24:11 Why won't palm just die? Feb 18 16:24:15 :D Feb 18 16:24:35 tsts Feb 18 16:24:58 Actually it looks like that ACCESS thing is going to die, so that's all right Feb 18 16:25:43 Palm got a lot of things right. Feb 18 16:26:01 Long battery life over 'pretty' for example. Feb 18 16:26:43 yeah... but after the palm III it all got a bit pointless Feb 18 16:26:56 plus no mobile system has ever had good software... so far! ;) Feb 18 16:29:57 gaah Feb 18 16:31:23 pfeh, took 3 turns to get it right Feb 18 16:35:27 nand_read.c:57: error: ‘NAND_PAGE_SIZE’ undeclared (first use in this function) NOTE: package uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-200702181702: task do_compile: failed Feb 18 17:12:27 Is stuff being done to prepare the wiki for /. load? Feb 18 17:17:36 SpeedEvil: read planet.openmoko.org Feb 18 17:18:17 allright, User:LuitvD created :D Feb 18 17:25:53 koen: you're referring to Xoo/Xnest quite a few times... can you help me run Xoo? :P Feb 18 17:26:10 koen: I don't have a clue of how to use it :P Feb 18 17:26:20 just start it Feb 18 17:26:23 and google Feb 18 17:26:32 :P Feb 18 17:26:43 allright... sorry I bothered ya then Feb 18 17:28:08 * LuitvD has tried to google for it for a while already... Feb 18 17:29:50 LuitvD: There is noothing magic you need to do. Just start xoo. Under Device>Pref. you can make your settings Feb 18 17:30:20 stefan_schmidt: yeah... but that doesn't get me very far ... Feb 18 17:31:43 LuitvD: Then I think you have the problem to don't know what you like to do with it instead *how* to do it. Feb 18 17:31:44 how do I make it run openmoko's graphical interface on it's nested X server :P Feb 18 17:31:54 google Feb 18 17:31:59 XD Feb 18 17:32:30 LuitvD: Build openmoko for your platform and add the mathchbox wm as startup prog in xoo. Feb 18 17:32:48 I've got no idea of how the X.org server loads for instance GDM Feb 18 17:33:12 matchbox wm... let's try to install that first :) Feb 18 17:36:02 aargh, how on earth do I tell Xserver to use matchbox wm Feb 18 17:39:25 You don't. Feb 18 17:39:34 Whatever starts the X server then starts the WM on it. Feb 18 17:39:41 Generally. Feb 18 17:39:52 meh Feb 18 17:40:00 X :2& Feb 18 17:40:01 now matchbox is on my desktop :S Feb 18 17:40:07 DISPLAY=0:2 Feb 18 17:40:13 fvwm95 Feb 18 17:40:19 or whatever, generally works. Feb 18 17:40:20 SpeedEvil: already got an Xnest server running Feb 18 17:40:38 If you've got authorisation to connect to it. Feb 18 17:42:12 yeah, THANKS Feb 18 17:42:20 the DISPLAY=:1 was the problem :P Feb 18 17:42:27 ") Feb 18 17:42:34 s/"/:/ Feb 18 17:42:35 SpeedEvil meant: :) Feb 18 17:42:41 (it started on my destkop because of that variable still being ":0,0" Feb 18 17:43:25 lol, and now it crashes :D Feb 18 17:44:24 now I'm getting somewhere :) let's configure Feb 18 18:01:44 ~bon appetit Feb 18 18:01:46 methinks bon appetit is smacznego. Guten Appetit. Eet Smakelijk. God Appetitt. Buon Appetito. Buen apetito Bom Apetite. buen apetito Smaklig mltid!. Hyv ruokahalua. Bo Proveito Feb 18 18:03:17 :P Feb 18 18:07:59 can someone please fix uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow to include any dumb NAND_PAGE_SIZE into prior nand_read.c:57 Feb 18 18:21:05 wow. Telepathy Tubes. Not only is the name awesome, but so is the concept: a reliable pipe transported over any IM system you can name. Feb 18 19:09:02 would this be a good place to mention that http://openmoko.com leads to a blank directory? (http://www.openmoko.com leads to a legit site) Feb 18 19:11:20 altoid: has been mentioned before IIRC Feb 18 19:11:43 LuitvD: k Feb 18 19:11:43 altoid: so to answer your question: yes :) Feb 18 19:11:51 hehe Feb 18 19:15:15 * LuitvD reinstalls his ubuntu to 32-bit... Feb 18 19:15:49 I hate hacking 32 bit libraries to work on x86_64 :@ especially libflashplayer Feb 18 19:16:06 use a chroot O_o Feb 18 19:16:21 d0tslash: what? Feb 18 19:16:21 * SuN uses a 32bit browser anyway Feb 18 19:16:45 It's not like Opera is going to release a 64bit version anytime soon Feb 18 19:16:56 LuitvD: i've got 2 debian installations on my system, a 64bit and a 32bit one. so i can run a few applications (like firefox & games) in 32bit chroot Feb 18 19:17:20 Why chroot? Feb 18 19:17:36 d0tslash: booh Feb 18 19:17:44 Don't those distros support 23 and 64 bit libs simultaneously? Feb 18 19:17:50 because it's cleaner than ia32-libs imho. Feb 18 19:18:07 e.g. testing code in a 32bit and 64bit enviroment Feb 18 19:18:08 d0tslash: then why even use 64 bit? Feb 18 19:18:08 Maybe, but an awful hassle. Feb 18 19:18:33 SuN: that hassle made me turn to 32-bit :P Feb 18 19:18:50 actually it's pretty okay, i can go with typing "l32 " and it will be executed in 32bit... Feb 18 19:18:57 Since mplayer started supporting wmv9 and quicktime sorensen, the only problem left is Flash. Feb 18 19:19:15 Well and Opera. Feb 18 19:19:41 SuN: err. why mplayer? VLC already supported both wmv9 and quicktime Feb 18 19:19:55 LuitvD: https://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html#id292281 Feb 18 19:20:29 They're both based on ffmpeg, they started supporting those roughly at the same time. Feb 18 19:20:37 Besides that, I like mplayer better. Feb 18 19:22:04 hell, I'll need a clean install anyways :P Feb 18 19:22:21 i hate svnnow Feb 18 19:22:27 LuitvD: and i've written a little script, so i can do ln -s /bin/script ~/bin/mplayer so mplayer will always be executed in 32bit enviroment :> Feb 18 19:22:39 lol Feb 18 19:22:46 I don't use mplayer ;) Feb 18 19:22:53 never did, and never will Feb 18 19:22:55 it works the same for firefox Feb 18 19:22:59 LuitvD: why not? Feb 18 19:23:11 d0tslash: going for 32-bit ubuntu anyways... Feb 18 19:23:41 d0tslash: unless you can give me a good example of something that actually works better on a 64 bit installation Feb 18 19:23:45 SuN: using VLC Feb 18 19:24:01 Well at least I've _tried_ VLC :) Feb 18 19:24:12 :P Feb 18 19:25:48 mhm. i can't give good reasons. usually it's just bothering. :) maybe a good reason is not i386-compatibility, but can use new instructions (mmx) in compiler, and more register. but i don't know if this really pays off Feb 18 19:25:57 and bignum arithmetic is faster, of course. :) Feb 18 19:26:14 but you won't care most likely :D Feb 18 19:26:25 I tried VLC but I grew tired of the cone that's always visible, I wonder why they do that: Feb 18 19:26:28 http://download.videolan.org/vlc/screenshots/0.8.2/windows-wxwin-hdtv.png Feb 18 19:26:47 Heh, I just use what gets the job done best in my opinion :) Feb 18 19:26:50 cause we love cones Feb 18 19:27:28 and the cone isnt always visible Feb 18 19:29:34 SuN: how did you get that cone? :P Feb 18 19:29:50 SuN: never had that one, want it too :) Feb 18 19:30:07 I don't know, I was just browsing the screenshots on their site :) Feb 18 19:31:28 that's at least idiotic Feb 18 19:31:52 :P Feb 18 19:32:02 PsP: I can do this all day, how about you? Feb 18 19:32:03 PsP: what was that for? Feb 18 19:33:42 anyone into editing my User page on the wiki? :P Feb 18 19:35:29 Alles is te koop! Feb 18 19:35:37 ? Feb 18 19:35:39 Sorry, doesn't work as well in English :) Feb 18 19:36:01 I mean, for the right amount of money, I'll do anything :D Feb 18 19:36:23 hmm i cant fetch gta01-kernel-2.6-moko7-r1 Feb 18 19:36:40 SuN, bastard Feb 18 19:36:58 >:) Feb 18 19:46:54 Does anyone know if the hardware in the NEO1973 phone will change between developer release and the retail release ? Feb 18 19:48:09 it has been indicated that this may happen Feb 18 19:48:21 (probably not very much, though) Feb 18 19:49:40 okay thanks. Not that it keeps me away from buying one in phase 1. I was just curious if i had to buy a new one at the retail release ;) Feb 18 19:49:52 But anyways i'll find out at that time Feb 18 19:50:08 It's been stated that tehre will be discouts. Feb 18 19:50:16 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003117.html Feb 18 19:50:31 for new changed versions for those that bought older versions. Feb 18 19:51:00 oh cool thanks Feb 18 19:51:20 I'll probably buy the new version, so my SO can have the older model ;) Feb 18 19:51:23 anyway Feb 18 19:52:46 yea i probably end up the same way Feb 18 19:53:26 now for a movie with said SO Feb 18 19:54:41 damn Feb 18 19:55:00 the community list is still as clueless since when I unsubscribed Feb 18 19:55:14 What's a SO? Some sort of derogatory term for a girlfriend? Feb 18 19:55:22 Significant o Feb 18 19:55:23 a cron job that sends 6 emails a day saying "OMG WIFI!!!" would be more efficient Feb 18 19:55:23 ther Feb 18 19:55:26 Ahh :) Feb 18 19:56:08 Hm, he gave up without a fight. Feb 18 20:16:31 morning Feb 18 20:32:40 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r6 10mokomakefile/trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Added the dialer dependency on eds-dbus Feb 18 20:43:50 hey rwhitby. Any chance of doing a makefile option (or perhaps a different makefile) that uses the latest files instead of the snapshot? Feb 18 20:47:37 jebba: that's the next task I'll work on today, getting latest svn to build. Feb 18 20:47:45 one stable step at a time ... Feb 18 20:48:51 rwhitby, cool, thanks. I actually haven't made it all the way to the end with the current one... Feb 18 20:49:48 I have, but I'm waiting on anonymous svn access to projects.om.org to be fixed before I can release it. Feb 18 20:49:48 rwhitby: note that you can't build svn against latest OE due to STAGING_BINDIR and IPKG_foo -> PACKAGE_foo changes Feb 18 20:49:57 (since it downloads patches from there) Feb 18 20:50:09 hi Feb 18 20:50:20 koen: nod - I'm doing as mickey|dinner said and continuing to use the frozen OE verison Feb 18 20:50:23 version Feb 18 20:50:39 Remember when I talked about a new site for OpenMoko-like phones (running Free Software)? Feb 18 20:50:50 MokoMakefile never runs ahead of the core team - That's koen's role :-) Feb 18 20:51:23 rwhitby: if someone wants to build against current .dev they wouldn't need the bbcollection anymore Feb 18 20:52:14 koen: right. when the core team starts doing that, then MokoMakefile will too. Feb 18 20:52:37 rwhitby: that's will be around p1 Feb 18 20:52:41 counter Feb 18 20:52:41 P0: a week, 3 days 14:33:42 (4.607 - 10.607 days); P1: 26.607 - 41.607; P2: 194.607 - 224.607 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (356) Feb 18 20:52:47 koen: nod Feb 18 20:53:05 so ~1 month Feb 18 20:53:42 argh P0 won't make it until after FOSDEM :( Feb 18 20:56:39 :( Feb 18 21:16:44 fosdem... Feb 18 21:54:40 wiki has no ssl for password operations...mmh Feb 18 21:55:06 ok https:// works fine... Feb 18 22:28:45 lots of logging in and out :P no talk ... Feb 18 22:28:54 how is everybody? Feb 18 22:29:05 s/how/how\/where/ Feb 18 22:32:58 have the phase0 ppl got there phones yet Feb 18 22:33:04 ive not been keeping up with events Feb 18 22:33:59 Psi: nope, not yet Feb 18 22:34:30 for P0, P1 and P2 dates: /msg aloril counter? Feb 18 22:37:04 any of the 'core' people here? Feb 18 22:38:20 on my way to bed... ask quickly Feb 18 22:38:37 :P Feb 18 22:38:52 will openmoko attend for Google's "Summer of Code" ? Feb 18 22:38:56 * SpeedEvil has a cunning plan. Feb 18 22:39:08 or has there been any discussion about that as-of now? Feb 18 22:39:45 mickey|dinner: or don't you guys know yet? Feb 18 22:40:23 there has been no discussion yet. Feb 18 22:40:25 Sigh. Feb 18 22:40:32 it's a good opportunity Feb 18 22:40:33 but honestly Feb 18 22:40:43 given our load, i can't see how can organize that Feb 18 22:40:47 + we Feb 18 22:40:48 mickey|dinner: i think it's a nice way of involving people... Feb 18 22:40:50 * SpeedEvil realises his cunning plan (tap into vibrator motor wires to get a PIO output to the back. Feb 18 22:41:11 we still have a bit of time to apply right? Feb 18 22:41:16 I'll talk to Sean @ FOSDEM about that Feb 18 22:41:16 yes Feb 18 22:41:17 doesn't work, as you can't get to it. Feb 18 22:41:40 mickey|dinner: I guess till even after the p1 release Feb 18 22:41:55 mickey|dinner: or close to that release Feb 18 22:42:08 (thought I read 15 march somewhere) Feb 18 22:42:17 at least untill march :P Feb 18 22:42:18 oki Feb 18 22:42:55 * rwhitby starts work on testing build of svn rev = HEAD ... Feb 18 22:42:56 I think I'll be attending as studend for it if openmoko attends as mentoring organisation :) Feb 18 22:43:28 mickey|dinner: 5 - 12 march Feb 18 22:43:46 * LuitvD wants to go to FOSDEM too :( Feb 18 22:44:30 mickey|dinner: if you're going to discuss with someone about this, read this: http://code.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=60303&topic=10727 Feb 18 22:44:32 ;) Feb 18 22:45:12 important point: number 16 Feb 18 22:45:23 and number 17 Feb 18 22:45:56 thanks Feb 18 22:46:02 i'll launch coreteam discussion Feb 18 22:46:06 you're welcome Feb 18 22:46:11 great :) Feb 18 22:46:33 g'night now Feb 18 22:46:38 don't hurry it ;) enaugh time and many other things to do first Feb 18 22:46:50 sleep tight :) Feb 18 22:46:56 :) Feb 18 22:46:56 * LuitvD is going to sleep too Feb 18 22:47:40 * LuitvD shuts himself down Feb 18 23:02:07 Heya, everyone Feb 18 23:02:39 Are there kernel patches for openmoko available, already? Feb 18 23:02:49 (Kernel implementation of mux would be useful...) Feb 18 23:02:55 There are some patches on the wiki. Feb 18 23:03:03 (I have no involvement in their writing) Feb 18 23:03:16 Or knowledge of much of the kernel stuff. Feb 18 23:03:29 wiki.openmoko.org? Feb 18 23:03:47 yes. Feb 18 23:04:41 I was just looking at the wiki, I really hope this project survives... it will show other hardware companies it's okay to open your hardware Feb 18 23:05:46 ttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware has some patches Feb 18 23:06:22 bluetooth/vibrator/... Feb 18 23:07:18 ...thanks, speed. My net it slow, but I'm looking there. Feb 18 23:08:03 :) Feb 18 23:08:08 jbnet: That's the point. Feb 18 23:08:10 oops Feb 18 23:08:16 jbnet: That's the point. Feb 18 23:08:28 It would be nice if the neo makes it big. Feb 18 23:08:42 But if it's taken up by other vendors, and used as a springboard, it's a big plus. Feb 18 23:09:25 I hate my cellphone, and most of my other embedded devices, the hw is fine, but open the sw gdit :p Feb 18 23:09:29 I know they'll sell at least one :) Feb 18 23:09:40 (to me) Feb 18 23:09:41 Indeed. The neo is nothing special at all hardwarewise (IMO) Feb 18 23:10:07 If you are serious, and actually have $350 put aside for purchase, add name to the interested in buying list. Feb 18 23:10:23 yeah, I gotta get an account, I'll do that Feb 18 23:10:46 jbnet: Actually it should be possible to run openmoko sw on many other cellphones. Feb 18 23:10:59 jbnet: that beasts are _very_ similar to each other. Feb 18 23:10:59 one thing I'm curious about, I know it has GPS hw, but I haven't heard anything about any GPS software yet Feb 18 23:11:05 If they are hacked for compatibility. Feb 18 23:11:20 lots of twisty little devices, none autodiscoverable. Feb 18 23:11:31 jbnet: that's because there is none. Feb 18 23:11:48 There is 'openStreetMap' - but that's in its infancy. Feb 18 23:11:58 Mapping software is nearly trivial. Feb 18 23:12:06 The _hard_ expensive part is the maps. Feb 18 23:12:45 I suppose so... has anybody looked into pulling the data from google maps or something? Feb 18 23:12:49 I would not be surprised the total invested in mapping is well over 10 billion dollars. Feb 18 23:12:58 speed: apt-get install gpsdrive ;-) Feb 18 23:13:05 Pulling off google breaks the terms and conditions. Feb 18 23:13:05 yeah I've seen ss's for that one Feb 18 23:13:24 hrm, even if each user did it individually? Feb 18 23:13:29 as opposed to the company doing it Feb 18 23:13:49 Yes. Feb 18 23:14:04 gpsdrive is good - but it's all in the maps. Feb 18 23:14:08 I suppose Google is bound by the people they get the data from Feb 18 23:14:34 OOps, I made a mistake... looked at the sources.... Feb 18 23:14:45 +/* Typedefinitions for structures used for the multiplexer commands */ Feb 18 23:14:45 +typedef struct { Feb 18 23:14:45 +} __attribute__ ((packed)) mcc_type; Feb 18 23:14:47 ...it makes me wanna cry. Feb 18 23:14:54 you said $10b invested in mapping, are you saying Openmoko have invested that? or that what it would cost? Feb 18 23:14:58 Indeed. I mean, I do use them - wander round the area to load it in the cache, go there with it loaded in cache. Feb 18 23:15:07 jbnet: no - the people that make the maps. Feb 18 23:15:42 Consider how many sources you've got to get the data from. They are all going to charge. And most of them fundamentally came from someone walking around and mapping it. Feb 18 23:15:54 Or most will charge at least. Feb 18 23:16:02 yeah I saw a thing on /. awhile back that had some pictures of the vans they use to get the data Feb 18 23:16:15 speed: actually, first you need to get good resolution aerial photos Feb 18 23:16:25 speed: only then it makes sense to walk around Feb 18 23:16:47 aren't there companies that aggrigate all that though? Don't Garmin/NavMan/etc just resell the data basically? Feb 18 23:16:47 Yes - If only they'd paint the streetnames down the middle, it'd make it easy. Feb 18 23:17:05 hehe Feb 18 23:17:06 jbnet: Sure - and come with - I imagine hefty usage fees. Feb 18 23:17:29 yeah, but we're not talking free as in beer here right? I don't mind paying for it Feb 18 23:17:30 speed: :-))))))))))))))) Feb 18 23:18:05 I don't mind paying for maps either - if they are good. I expect tomtom may be approachable for a mapping app. Feb 18 23:18:36 pavelm: most of the devs seem to be most active 4-6 hours ago I'd say. Feb 18 23:19:12 speed: That's okay, they have more important stuff to do then clean sources up at this point Feb 18 23:19:41 As long as it compiles - at the moment. Feb 18 23:19:43 speed: I thought I could use openmoko 07.10 implementation for sx1, but it needs to be cleaned up, first. Feb 18 23:20:00 I imagine there is a headlong rush to get the first hardware out the door mostly working. Feb 18 23:20:03 In around a week. Feb 18 23:20:41 yep... and cleaning up is bad idea when you can't recompile/boot it to make sure you have not broken it... Feb 18 23:21:57 SpeedEvil: there added myself to the buying interest, I see you're #2 :) Feb 18 23:22:09 AIUI - all the devs have JTAG at the moment. Feb 18 23:22:25 So bricking isn't so bad a concern. But still not good. Feb 18 23:22:52 jbnet: Indeed - I want to play with adding external hardware to it inside an extended case. Feb 18 23:23:32 speed: As long as you do not play with bootloader, you should be ok (not brick). and kernel is where the most useful stuff is... Feb 18 23:23:34 oh? like what? Feb 18 23:24:05 pavelm: yeah - the bootloader seems sane. And can be accessed over USB - which is kind of vital. Feb 18 23:24:06 pavelm: are you subscribed to openmoko-kernel @ http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ ? There has been discussion about libgsmd there. Feb 18 23:24:31 or maybe it was on gsmd-devel @ .... Feb 18 23:24:32 jbnet: Like full-sized SD slot. Feb 18 23:25:11 jbnet: Also perhaps double SIM support. More involved - wifi and webcam. Feb 18 23:25:19 rwhitby: No, I'm not subscribed. Will take a look at archives. Feb 18 23:25:32 stylus holder and torch. However much I can pack in 4mm*40*60mm or so. Feb 18 23:26:51 speed: Actually I like the torch idea. Feb 18 23:27:05 speed: I already had my t68i modded to include torch, and I use it a _lot_. Feb 18 23:27:10 Using a Cree 1W LED - one of the most efficient LEDs out there. Feb 18 23:27:39 I use my current cell's backlight as a flashlight sometimes Feb 18 23:27:39 Prolly hooking it up to the vibrator motor output (with buffering) Feb 18 23:27:42 torch? Feb 18 23:27:49 Flashlight. Feb 18 23:28:19 jbnet: yep, backlight is useful.. but do not try to ride bike using it as sole source of light ;-). Feb 18 23:28:30 this just goes to show google needs and English->English option in their translator Feb 18 23:29:11 LEDs have gotten astoundingly more efficient in the last 3 years. Feb 18 23:29:26 From competing with halogen, to competing with linear fluorescant tubes. Feb 18 23:29:40 (20 lumens/watt to 90 lumens/watt) Feb 18 23:29:47 Wee. Feb 18 23:29:50 speed: Are the improvements really that dramatic...? Feb 18 23:29:54 Yes. Feb 18 23:30:14 To the extent that the cream of the crop now has 35% wallplug to photon efficiency. Feb 18 23:30:15 speed: I was not aware of that. Does it go only for white leds, or did green/red leds improve, too? Feb 18 23:30:29 White and blue have gotten better. Feb 18 23:30:42 Green and read have really stuch in the mud comparatively. Feb 18 23:30:45 red Feb 18 23:31:04 red is at 50lm/W, green at 40, and white at 80 or so (for the best) Feb 18 23:31:31 How come people don't use white in 7 segs? I've never seen it Feb 18 23:31:32 Where are normal wolfram based lightbulbs? Feb 18 23:31:47 The best ones are around 20. Feb 18 23:31:59 speed: _that_ good? Really? Feb 18 23:32:12 speed: But that is not the ones you'd find in lightbulb, right? Feb 18 23:32:18 Common 100W ones are at around 14, and flashlights down as low as 1. Feb 18 23:32:18 speed; (in flashlight) Feb 18 23:32:56 Flashlights can be _horrible_ I replaced my 1AAA minimag-solitare keyring light (2.5 hours on AAA) with a similar sized LED one from http://www.fenix-store.com/ Feb 18 23:33:11 On 'mid' brightness it's around 20 times brighter, and the same life. Feb 18 23:33:18 On high, around 40 times. Feb 18 23:33:28 This is extreme though. Feb 18 23:33:39 2AA/3AA lights are not so bad. Feb 18 23:33:54 http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ is worth a quick look. Feb 18 23:34:22 The 20lm/W figure was for high prices automotive lights IIRC, with special IR reflective coatings. Feb 18 23:34:36 50W or so power. Feb 18 23:35:07 (still searching for a reasonable light system for horseback riding. LEDs are nice, but more power would be welcome. Only need 1.5hour or so of battery life...) Feb 18 23:35:29 You can get very bright LEDs Feb 18 23:35:35 There are _lots_ of solutions for that sort of thing on candlepowerforums. Feb 18 23:35:58 2.5W bike LED lights can compete with car headlights Feb 18 23:36:01 Everything from CR123 keychain lights (that are astoundingly bright for their size) to 55W HID lights. Feb 18 23:36:23 55W HID lights may set fire to the horse though :) Feb 18 23:37:34 speed: Horse has few kilowatts of power at maximum, should be quite hard to set on fire. Feb 18 23:37:43 What is "HID"? Feb 18 23:37:55 High Intensity Discharge. Feb 18 23:38:05 It's the bluish light found in high priced cars. Feb 18 23:38:16 Which is 4-5* as efficient as filliment. Feb 18 23:38:41 speed: Yep, I see. Feb 18 23:38:42 (though there are now other colours of light available in that form factor) Feb 18 23:39:13 benji: I have seen 1W led... and they seem expensive. Light is nice, but I do not think it can compete with 100W of car's frontlight. Feb 18 23:39:39 pavelm: 100W car front lights are halogen or similar, extremely inefficient Feb 18 23:40:15 Actually - not. They are around 20lm/W. Feb 18 23:40:23 The _best_ LEDs are around 4 times that. Feb 18 23:40:40 55W HID should should be enough.. unfortunately batteries for that would be heavy. Feb 18 23:40:41 They put out stupid amounts of heat Feb 18 23:40:45 You can get LEDs which will put out a comparable amount of light - well clusters. Feb 18 23:41:03 But they use more like 20W than 1W. Feb 18 23:41:08 speed: But we are talking $300 for such a system in LEDs, right? Feb 18 23:41:14 About that. Feb 18 23:41:16 clusters arn't as bright eraly Feb 18 23:41:28 http://extreme-geek.blogspot.com/2006/11/fire-starter-flashlight.html this torch is quite impressive Feb 18 23:42:22 ..actually, two B class batteries are ~12Whours. Feb 18 23:43:33 ...enough to power 20W for half an hour. That's good enough... as long as it can go on 1W and less, too. Feb 18 23:43:58 how big light is in average motorbike? Feb 18 23:44:05 ...that one should be enough for a horse ;-). Feb 18 23:44:13 I think they are typically around 30W. Feb 18 23:44:19 It may be more on larger bikes. Feb 18 23:44:44 I don't know how much floodlight vs spill you want. Feb 18 23:44:54 I.E. a spotlight, or a more wide angle light. Feb 18 23:45:00 Is this for riding on roads? Feb 18 23:45:36 speed: not roads. basically terain. (Horses suck on roads, as the surface is too hard) Feb 18 23:46:50 speed: top speed is ~40kph... you basically want to have light everywhere around, as that is useful for orientation. Feb 18 23:46:56 ...and top speed is not that big. Feb 18 23:47:21 I wonder if the horse could learn to use a head-mounted light. Feb 18 23:47:34 A light mounted on its head I mean. Feb 18 23:47:48 As one on the rider I could understand would be deeply anoying. Feb 18 23:48:26 speed: I actually placed head-mounted light on horse's head Feb 18 23:48:29 speed: it worked okay. Feb 18 23:48:38 * rwhitby wonders if there is a #led-technology channel ... ;-) Feb 18 23:49:28 (don't forget that some people read the logs of these channels from overnight their time, and are still expecting to see reasonably on-topic discussion.) Feb 18 23:49:40 Personally, I'd ask over on the candlpowerforums.com site, and ask there. Rather than here :) Feb 18 23:50:07 rwhitby: Ok :-) Feb 18 23:50:24 rwhitby: Still LED on the phone would be very useful. Feb 18 23:50:32 * SpeedEvil contemplates strapping neos to horses. Feb 18 23:50:40 pavelm: indeed. Feb 18 23:56:11 anyone want to sell me their neo1973? Feb 18 23:56:26 Nobody actually has one yet. Feb 18 23:56:37 How about a Zaurus? Feb 18 23:56:40 It's 'late march' before you can buy for $350. Feb 18 23:56:49 somebody has one. Feb 18 23:57:02 Not with actual case. AIUI. Feb 18 23:57:51 Sean does. I wonder how much for his? Feb 18 23:58:01 I just can't wait Feb 18 23:59:03 Ask on the mailing list if you really want to try. Feb 18 23:59:20 It might be fun actually ebaying one of the dev phones to raise interest. Feb 18 23:59:39 (I mean FIC doing it, not one of the devs) Feb 18 23:59:40 naa, I'll wait. Yea, that's a great idea, to ebay one. Feb 18 23:59:48 emulsion: Mail said 7% of the batch was successful... so there's more than Sean's phone. Feb 19 00:00:03 cool Feb 19 00:00:30 7% yield for the bluetooth module cable IIRC. That may not translate into 7% of the first batch of phones. Feb 19 00:01:08 so bluetooth will be available, after that last email, I couldn't figure out if they were going to have btooth or not Feb 19 00:01:14 Yes. Feb 19 00:01:19 speed: Aha, I probably misparsed that email. Feb 19 00:01:23 Bluetooth is available, wifi/camera is not. Feb 19 00:01:41 thought so, good choice Feb 19 00:01:43 The wiki has what's in and what's not, and what people would like. Feb 19 00:02:06 I added up mass estimates for all teh things people would like, and it added around 300g to the phone. Feb 19 00:02:12 speed: That beast is not going to have a camera? Feb 19 00:02:17 No :( Feb 19 00:02:35 Not at least for the first revision (on sale in november) Feb 19 00:02:44 September Feb 19 00:02:53 the one announced in Sep may or may not have wifi/camera. Feb 19 00:03:06 speed: I forgot to check... I thought noone even does phones w/o cameras these days. Feb 19 00:03:24 speed: I will not miss one.... camera in phone is usable... as a sensor for turning of phone backlight. Feb 19 00:03:53 I find many more uses for it - not taking pictures of people, but pricelabels in shops, ... Feb 19 00:04:03 I can live without it with voice notes. Feb 19 00:04:26 Cameraless phones are also needed for some that can't have cameras on phones at work. Feb 19 00:04:38 why do you take pics of pricelabels? Feb 19 00:04:46 just curious Feb 19 00:05:08 speed: Actually, I seen one cool use for phone's camera. Remove infrared filter and add superbright IR leds... for night vision system. Feb 19 00:05:13 Because if I'm wandering round a shop, just for general interest, and not actually intending to buy stuff, I can have a nice easy to read later note of what it is and how much it is. Feb 19 00:05:15 :) Feb 19 00:05:41 speed: and with some 2mpix / AF cameras in ericsson phones... that may actually be usable for taking pictures. Feb 19 00:05:55 Indeed. Some phone cameras are getting to not suck. Feb 19 00:06:12 it's about time Feb 19 00:06:23 (Unfortunately AF is expensive AFAICT, so it will not appear in openmoko series.) Feb 19 00:06:40 that's fine with me, Feb 19 00:06:59 Upgradable/removable camera would be nice, though complex. Feb 19 00:07:39 speed: I do not think upgradable anything is viable for as small beast as a cellphone :-( Feb 19 00:08:42 barcode reader? Feb 19 00:08:59 I've heard of software barcode readers Feb 19 00:09:08 Well - As long as you don't want it trivially upgradable. A camera that's removable from the back with screws, when the battery cover is opened is a possibility, with a flat connector to the PCB. Feb 19 00:09:50 one of my friends' senior projects in school was a software barcode reader, the idea is the phone would automatically do price comparisons Feb 19 00:09:53 It's not easy, and wastes some space, but given that the camera is going to want the full depth of the phone anyway, it's not that bad. Feb 19 00:10:07 speed: unfortunately 2mpix/AF assembly is likely going to be much bigger than normal VGA resolution beast. Feb 19 00:10:16 ~convert 6500SWF to USD Feb 19 00:10:34 ~convert 6500 CHF to USD Feb 19 00:10:42 hmm Feb 19 00:11:18 Quite a lot. A fixed focus 1MP or so camera wouldn't be too bad. And can be modestly improved as time goes on. Feb 19 00:11:42 speed: As long as it is fixed focus... it can't be usable. Feb 19 00:11:45 someone design a camera add-on which fits in the semicircular hole. plenty of space there. Feb 19 00:12:04 not really. Feb 19 00:12:15 Ad it's next to the antenna, which will screw that up. Feb 19 00:12:20 speed: I did some _nice_ pictures with 1.3MPix /AF /3x optical zoom beasts; not good enough for large prints, but good enough for screen. Feb 19 00:13:14 pavelm: yeah - there are so many compromises round small hardware. Adding more constraints (upgradability) is horrible. Feb 19 00:14:03 rwhitby: I'm pretty sure a camera can be fitted in a 5mm thicker back. Along with some other stuff. Making it aimable as well is fun. Feb 19 00:16:02 * SpeedEvil waves. Feb 19 00:16:13 I can see one use of a camera: If it's connected with OCR/festival: It can be used to read stuff to people with bad eyes. ;) Feb 19 00:16:19 I've got to be driving long distances tomorrow, so better roll over and go to sleep. Feb 19 00:17:25 Yeah. Good night people. :) Feb 19 00:17:53 Good night everyone Feb 19 00:19:44 rwhitby: Thanks for the help yesterday. Have successfully built now. I would have take ages to find the dash thing ... Feb 19 00:20:12 Lunved: glad to help other developers. I'm building svn head now ... Feb 19 02:00:22 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r7 10mokomakefile/trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Now builds openmoko svn HEAD revision, as of 20070218. Feb 19 02:01:04 Still can't release that until the projects.openmoko.org anonymous svn access is fixed ... Feb 19 02:02:00 hmm. Feb 19 02:02:14 keep up the good work, rwhitby :-) Feb 19 02:02:35 btw, what time zone to you belong to? Feb 19 02:03:16 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=5 Feb 19 02:03:22 * aevin is reading up on the wiki Feb 19 02:07:22 okay, i was just wondering. you seem to always be around :-) i'm stuck in CET (UTC+1h), .no Feb 19 02:10:24 rwhitby, you gonna update it here too? http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/ thanks for this, btw :) Feb 19 02:10:49 jebba: "Still can't release that until the projects.openmoko.org anonymous svn access is fixed ..." Feb 19 02:12:10 aevin: I often leave the laptop running overnight building stuff ... Feb 19 02:12:49 jebba: if anon svn is not fixed in the next 24 hours, I'll implement a different means of getting the required patches. Feb 19 02:15:17 i think koen said most everything was already in OE, at least for now.... Feb 19 02:15:51 perhaps if your Makefile points at that it will encourage a quicker migration/merge of the two repos (which will make the whole thing a lot easier for new devels coming onboard) Feb 19 02:23:59 i'm reading about the flash partitioning and the BBT (bad block table). why is it desirable to distinguish between factory-bad flash blocks and worn-out flash blocks? Feb 19 02:26:05 jebba: no, that would just make more trouble for the core team with ext devs reporting bugs in stuff that the core team is not using yet. Feb 19 02:26:27 koen's work and my work are both needed until the core team does the merge. Feb 19 02:26:50 ah ya. agreed Feb 19 02:28:40 jebba, rwhitby: are you both phase 0 devs? Feb 19 02:30:20 I am. Feb 19 02:34:29 aevin i'm not. Feb 19 02:34:42 okay. i'm aiming for a phase 1 device. Feb 19 02:47:35 counter Feb 19 02:47:35 P0: a week, 3 days 08:38:46 (4.360 - 10.360 days); P1: 26.360 - 41.360; P2: 194.360 - 224.360 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (357) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Feb 19 03:00:00 2007