**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 19 03:00:00 2007 Feb 19 03:39:10 hmm, what was the "uboot-mkimage: command not found" fix again? :) Feb 19 03:43:46 add ${STAGING_BINDIR}/ before it. Feb 19 03:51:05 rwhitby: js-1.5 and rxvt-unicode-7.9 source have moved (I guess you know at least js-1.5 already, its mentioned in wiki, rxvt is not mentioned) Feb 19 04:16:15 aloril: did you do "make sources" for js? Feb 19 04:36:17 rwhitby: I just copied js-1.5.tar.gz from older compile try and touch build/tmp/stamps/armv4t-linux/js-1.5-r0.do_fetch Feb 19 04:39:20 rwhitby, i am unable to find cause of this error. Help would be apreciated. http://pastebin.com/884137 Feb 19 04:42:57 empty_mind: I think the reason for this is that this file has been renamed: Feb 19 04:42:57 e-data-server-util.h to e-util.h Feb 19 04:43:41 rwhitby: it seems sources disappear/move places quite often ;-) Feb 19 04:44:08 jebba, then why it is not fixed when i do a checkout? do_fetch succeds Feb 19 04:44:34 jebba, or should i wait before retring Feb 19 04:46:03 aloril and empty_mind are talking about different missing files. The e-util.h empty_mind issue is due to it changing names in upstream tarball. The aloril rxvt/js issue is due to upstream moving files on their ftp servers. The latter has been fixed in OE, but the openmoko snapshot is older than js-1.6, which replaces js-1.5 Feb 19 05:18:40 Hehe: http://xkcd.com/c225.html Feb 19 06:01:04 nice that openmoko is wanting to support USB DFU [ http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_DFU ] Feb 19 06:43:54 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r8 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Reduced all lines to under 80 chars Feb 19 06:48:43 g'day all Feb 19 06:52:13 g'day ninHer Feb 19 06:52:27 hi rwhitby Feb 19 06:54:56 <_law_> hi, is openmoko designed to work without a touchscreen? Feb 19 06:55:07 lol why ?-) Feb 19 06:55:35 bluetooth keyboard, for one reason ... Feb 19 06:55:47 <_law_> usewith a smartphone... Feb 19 06:56:07 (don't want to be continually swapping hands between keyboard and stylus/screen) Feb 19 06:56:10 ah you mean like "work with other input methods than the touchscreen" Feb 19 06:56:19 aha Feb 19 06:56:42 <_law_> xkr47, right Feb 19 06:57:14 well at least I know gtk support switching input methods Feb 19 06:57:52 I hope the touchscreen input is/was possible to implement as an input method, then you can change it from the commandline Feb 19 06:57:56 _law_: operation from a keyboard only would be one of my key use cases - I almost *never* take the stylus of the it's hole when I'm using my Treo650. Feb 19 06:59:06 <_law_> rwhitby, so it will be supported? Feb 19 07:17:10 Look at the general look+ffeel documenttion. Feb 19 07:17:34 If the pop-up-keyboard - when it pops up by default accepts keyboard input, then it all just works. Feb 19 07:18:12 There are several input methods for text - finger + numeric keypad, ... keyboard will be one. Feb 19 07:19:53 those keys look awfully small. perhaps a rotated view of the keyboard + input window only Feb 19 07:21:04 _law_: it will depend on the community making things are supported - it's open source Feb 19 07:27:31 hm. no hackergotchis on your planet? Feb 19 07:36:11 morning Feb 19 07:38:53 morn Feb 19 07:44:29 http://www.google.com/trends?q=openmoko%2Cneo1973%2Ciphone&ctab=1&geo=all&date=all A little way to go :) Feb 19 07:47:02 SpeedEvil, hehe I just noticed your wiki change :) Feb 19 07:59:26 hmm, is sean going to be in Tampere, Finland on wednesday? Feb 19 07:59:58 seems www.coss.fi is having some seminar then Feb 19 08:13:49 SpeedEvil, is it really 100000? Feb 19 08:16:00 Yes - you have to search for flash with much lower endurance these days. Feb 19 08:16:15 It's typically found only in stuff like small microcontrollers program memory. Feb 19 08:17:44 nice to know, thanks for updating :) Feb 19 08:18:04 write balancing is done by jffs2 right? Feb 19 08:18:15 and on sd/usb sticks in hardware Feb 19 08:18:37 (2G sd cards with jffs is not really feasible) Feb 19 08:18:37 Yes. Feb 19 08:19:06 as iirc jffs2 needs to scan the WHOLE volume upon mounting Feb 19 08:19:18 SpeedEvil, how about "1000 erase cycles guaranteed for the first block" on the same page, is it still valid info? Feb 19 08:19:27 memory cards have their own little chip to do it. Feb 19 08:19:38 but the internal NAND does not ? Feb 19 08:19:44 i think not Feb 19 08:19:50 Because the first block is guaranteed to have 1000 cycles without error correction. Feb 19 08:19:52 NAND is as pure flash as it comes Feb 19 08:20:09 SpeedEvil, ok Feb 19 08:20:11 first block really only matters for uboot hackers ig uess Feb 19 08:20:18 It then has 99000 cycles after which the error correction code can take care of it. Feb 19 08:20:26 * xkr47 wonders if there will be a lot of uboot updates Feb 19 08:20:31 i hope not Feb 19 08:20:32 But, boot code can't really use ECC. Feb 19 08:20:39 thats a nice way to brick your machine Feb 19 08:20:56 :) Feb 19 08:21:02 1000 updates should be enough for anyone :) Feb 19 08:21:04 SpeedEvil, ok.. maybe that could be mentioned also on the wiki.. :) Feb 19 08:21:23 is the error correction code in the s3c? or in the nand chip Feb 19 08:22:21 with one update a week, 1000 updates will still give 20 years worth of updates :) Feb 19 08:22:40 buz, it sounds to me it's in software Feb 19 08:22:51 mhh that means you lose space right? Feb 19 08:23:28 develepers going to have something like 10 updates per day Feb 19 08:24:05 not necessarily Feb 19 08:24:30 unless they are in fact hacking uboot Feb 19 08:24:46 keeping everything in ram? Feb 19 08:24:47 and the ones who really do that will probably get free devices anyhow Feb 19 08:25:05 not but you dont need to update uboot just to try your new app Feb 19 08:25:13 probably not even when you change a wee bit in your kernel Feb 19 08:25:52 i forgot that you can mount rootfs via nfs Feb 19 08:26:20 yeah that too Feb 19 08:26:49 but since rootfs has write balancing, you can easily write years of data to it Feb 19 08:27:27 just dont start using it as swap Feb 19 08:27:59 i think when fast 16GB flash breaks the 100$ barrier i will convert my laptop to flash Feb 19 08:39:44 mornin Feb 19 08:42:23 checking for GCONF_DBUS... configure: error: You need either ORBit or D-BUS for IPC Feb 19 08:42:30 in package gconf-osso Feb 19 08:42:37 have anyone idea how to fix it? Feb 19 08:42:54 hello Feb 19 08:45:23 buz, make a raid-1 array while you're at it :) Feb 19 08:45:33 http://www.fourmigration.com/link.php?pid=15&cont=5 Feb 19 08:45:44 well two flash chips ;) Feb 19 08:45:56 raid between flash and hd is sort of besides the point Feb 19 08:46:53 that is actually one of my main critique points about laptops Feb 19 08:46:58 you basically cant get raid1 Feb 19 08:47:51 ouch, 16gb compact flash cost 400EUR Feb 19 09:31:02 good morning Feb 19 09:31:12 morgen Feb 19 09:32:57 can someone give me $PKG_CONFIG env working with building openmoko-devel-image? Feb 19 09:35:30 what for? Feb 19 09:36:00 gconf-osso is failing Feb 19 09:36:58 thats because gconf-osso shoildnt be built Feb 19 09:37:25 so why bitbake openmoko-devel-image is trying to build it? Feb 19 09:38:49 do you have any idea? Feb 19 09:38:53 because somewhere along the line PREFERRED_PROVIDER_gconf = "gconf" is missing Feb 19 09:39:08 most likely a local config error Feb 19 09:39:30 where to look first? Feb 19 09:39:51 conf/local.conf conf/disto/openmoko* Feb 19 09:39:52 i am a bit new with OE... Feb 19 09:40:54 thx Feb 19 09:53:01 hello there Feb 19 09:53:59 Hi, I am trying to build using Rod's MokoMakefile, but I end up with this error building libtool-native: "source directory already configured; run "make distclean" there first" which persists even if I clean everything out and start from scratch. Feb 19 09:54:21 Lazerdye: you didn't read the docs Feb 19 09:54:37 Lazerdye: especially the section about not having symlinks in the path Feb 19 09:55:01 aarhg, I hate being too young to apply for summer of code :( Feb 19 09:55:11 koen: yeah, that's it then. Feb 19 09:55:30 koen: symlinks in $PATH? Feb 19 09:55:42 koen: why would you want that? Feb 19 09:55:59 LuitvD: in $PWD Feb 19 09:56:08 ah Feb 19 09:56:10 hmmm... Feb 19 09:56:14 http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/GettingStarted , section " Setting up the toolchain and doing a build" Feb 19 09:56:22 LuitvD: how young is too young? 16< ? Feb 19 09:56:31 Stephmw: minimum age is 18 Feb 19 09:56:34 :'( Feb 19 09:57:50 LuitvD: drat Feb 19 09:58:08 Stephmw: what? Feb 19 09:58:44 LuitvD: just feel sorry for you ;) Feb 19 09:58:53 thanks :P Feb 19 09:59:21 it's nice google gives every student attendant 5000 dollars :) Feb 19 09:59:30 wrong Feb 19 09:59:32 $4500 Feb 19 09:59:42 (4500 for the student and 500 for the organisation, i know) Feb 19 09:59:53 :P Feb 19 09:59:56 easy Feb 19 09:59:58 * koen puts on his google SoC 2006 t-shirt Feb 19 10:00:03 LuitvD: and only if student got accepted and his/her work will be finally accepted by mentor Feb 19 10:00:03 :| Feb 19 10:00:13 hrw: yeah... Feb 19 10:00:58 hrw: though I guess the people whi get accepted somewhat automatically is good enaugh to get his/her work accepted by the mentor... Feb 19 10:01:04 s/whi/who/ Feb 19 10:01:04 LuitvD meant: hrw: though I guess the people who get accepted somewhat automatically is good enaugh to get his/her work accepted by the mentor... Feb 19 10:01:14 s/is/are/ Feb 19 10:01:14 LuitvD meant: hrw: though I guess the people whi get accepted somewhat automatically are good enaugh to get his/her work accepted by the mentor... Feb 19 10:01:27 darn... can only regexp-replace one word :P Feb 19 10:01:43 s/can/test/ s/only/this/ Feb 19 10:01:45 ... Feb 19 10:01:51 nope... :P sorry Feb 19 10:02:05 LuitvD: not aways Feb 19 10:02:09 LuitvD: not always Feb 19 10:02:34 zomg, the Amsterdam police is going to organise rap-battles to get new cops :P Feb 19 10:19:36 request permission to complain a bit? Feb 19 10:20:29 DENIED Feb 19 10:20:32 :) Feb 19 10:20:39 -ENOPERM Feb 19 10:20:57 hihi Feb 19 10:20:59 -EAGAIN Feb 19 10:21:05 -EALREADY Feb 19 10:22:14 -ECHAN Feb 19 10:23:38 -EBADE Feb 19 10:23:47 -EBULLSHIT Feb 19 10:24:02 -enowifi lol!1 Feb 19 10:36:44 ynezz: :( Feb 19 10:45:22 NOTE: package gta01-kernel-2.6-moko7-r1: task do_fetch: failed Feb 19 10:48:04 hehe; http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/open_source.png Feb 19 10:49:37 xkcd rocks Feb 19 10:49:58 i also like userfriendly.org Feb 19 10:51:24 fluffs, :) Feb 19 11:06:00 FWIW I got around the e-data-server-util.h missing issue with http://pastebin.com/884287 Feb 19 11:06:47 I have to go now, but I'll wiki'ify it tomorrow (UTC+10) if no-one else has by then .... Feb 19 11:26:56 openmoko: 03werner * r1042 10/developers/werner/splash-jtag/ (. README img.pl): Load a splash screen image into the frame buffer with JTAG. Feb 19 11:35:29 Does u-boot yet support console on usb? Feb 19 11:36:40 mornin Feb 19 11:36:50 morning Feb 19 11:39:25 mornin' Feb 19 11:48:30 Elrond: yes Feb 19 11:51:49 hrw - So unless I brick u-boot itself, it should be possible to unbrick a neo using usb (and a microsd card)? Feb 19 11:52:08 ... with current u-boot. Feb 19 11:52:42 no Feb 19 11:52:51 unbricking requires jtag Feb 19 11:53:02 if it doesn't require jtag, it wasn't bricked Feb 19 11:54:12 Okay... s/bricked/b0rked kernel image or alike/ Feb 19 11:58:44 koen: I know you're a real digg fanboy, so this must be your dream case: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/02/digg_custom_cas.html ;) Feb 19 12:12:30 NIcely done! Feb 19 12:14:39 tach Feb 19 12:17:37 Hi sixfeet Feb 19 12:17:53 hi Elrond Feb 19 12:18:04 counter Feb 19 12:18:04 P0: a week, 2 days 23:08:14 (3.964 - 9.964 days); P1: 25.964 - 40.964; P2: 193.964 - 223.964 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (358) Feb 19 12:18:25 that p0 has been a week for the last week :-P Feb 19 12:21:33 so we have to wait Feb 19 12:22:10 :P Feb 19 12:22:30 noidd: see that range specified? Feb 19 12:22:45 could be 4 days, could be 10 days :P Feb 19 13:26:05 aloril: Already 66 people on it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List Feb 19 13:26:33 CM: :) isn't that great? Feb 19 13:26:59 Sure is :) Feb 19 13:27:07 what do i have to do to receive a neo1973 before september 2007? Feb 19 13:27:23 mitsuhiko: Order it and pay $350 :) Feb 19 13:27:31 CM: where? :) Feb 19 13:27:39 counter Feb 19 13:27:39 P0: a week, 2 days 21:58:39 (3.916 - 9.916 days); P1: 25.916 - 40.916; P2: 193.916 - 223.916 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (359) Feb 19 13:27:43 mitsuhiko: that's not known yet Feb 19 13:27:49 i would really like to port a few applications to that device Feb 19 13:28:02 mitsuhiko: And it's about 1 month until you can buy it Feb 19 13:28:10 * mitsuhiko counts the days Feb 19 13:28:29 CM: i thought you can only receive a developer openmoko if you are some kind of developer Feb 19 13:28:29 What is it you want to "port"? Feb 19 13:28:29 mitsuhiko: drop-by on the wiki or this channel every once in a while, you'll notice when the time is there Feb 19 13:28:31 :P Feb 19 13:28:51 LuitvD: sure ;) Feb 19 13:28:58 mitsuhiko: as long as you pay the price they won't really care ... Feb 19 13:29:10 mitsuhiko: beta-testing is fine too ;) Feb 19 13:29:21 mitsuhiko: The P0 (Phase Zero) will get theirs for free, but at P1 (Phase one) Anyone who wants to try and help out can buy it Feb 19 13:29:25 (and everyone who gets the FIC neo is beta-testing Feb 19 13:30:02 * mitsuhiko wants python and sqlite running on that little device :) Feb 19 13:30:14 mitsuhiko: both already works Feb 19 13:30:18 CM: too bad I didn't find out about this project earlyer... the 50 P0 people had already been chosen... Feb 19 13:30:22 cool Feb 19 13:30:36 * LuitvD wants bridgebuilder on it :P Feb 19 13:30:45 LuitvD: the game? Feb 19 13:30:46 LuitvD: Great idea!! Feb 19 13:30:52 mitsuhiko: yes Feb 19 13:30:58 CM: not mine though :P Feb 19 13:30:59 LuitvD: write it and send it to some p0 guys to test :) Feb 19 13:31:03 * xkr47 thinks it could be/have been cool to have official specs on the exact metrics of the back cover of the phone Feb 19 13:31:08 Stephmw: impossible... Feb 19 13:31:20 this would allow 3rd party manufacturers to produce addon devices that just snap in instead of the regular back cover Feb 19 13:31:36 is it possible to start a http server on the neo and connect from the pc to it? Feb 19 13:31:39 xkr47: ask for the CAD/CAM layout or something... Feb 19 13:31:46 mitsuhiko: sure... Feb 19 13:31:51 LuitvD: over usb? Feb 19 13:32:04 LuitvD, not for me.. just thought it would be nice to have Feb 19 13:32:06 mitsuhiko: everything is possible, as long as you can write it ;) Feb 19 13:32:26 xkr47: ask them to publish the CAD/CAM drawings Feb 19 13:32:32 :) Feb 19 13:32:48 ah. ethernet over usb would work. nice Feb 19 13:33:12 LuitvD: if python is already running that's enough for me :) Feb 19 13:33:15 mitsuhiko: you might have to write your own drivers... but maybe even those are available Feb 19 13:33:28 jeü Feb 19 13:33:32 s/ü/p/ Feb 19 13:33:32 mitsuhiko meant: jep Feb 19 13:34:05 mitsuhiko: and because it's linux, many programs can be easily ported Feb 19 13:34:26 * XorA hides before koen explodes Feb 19 13:34:27 so getting apache running on openmoko is practically done already Feb 19 13:34:33 XorA: heuh? Feb 19 13:34:33 LuitvD: just because it's linux that does not mean the application will run on arm processors Feb 19 13:34:44 LuitvD: you said that word Feb 19 13:34:49 mitsuhiko: with the right compiler you can port it yourself? Feb 19 13:34:55 and again Feb 19 13:34:56 XorA: err... which one? Feb 19 13:35:05 LuitvD: port Feb 19 13:35:06 the p**t one Feb 19 13:35:08 lol Feb 19 13:35:21 what about it? Feb 19 13:35:22 * hrw goes out to port some cash into food Feb 19 13:35:31 s/port/rebuild/ Feb 19 13:35:34 ? Feb 19 13:35:37 hmmm. wine Feb 19 13:35:38 18:40 < koen> 'ported'? Feb 19 13:35:38 18:40 < koen> you mean cross-compiled? Feb 19 13:35:50 ah, recompile :P Feb 19 13:35:53 fine with me Feb 19 13:36:58 anyways... nearly every open-source program can be recompiled to work on the FIC Neo1973... right? Feb 19 13:37:09 LuitvD: guess not Feb 19 13:37:24 there are many programs that don't even compile on 64 bit processors Feb 19 13:38:15 well... Feb 19 13:38:51 I guess apache can be compiled for arm... Feb 19 13:39:15 * xkr47 temporarily appears as bwefh Feb 19 13:39:22 ... Feb 19 13:39:22 LuitvD: Hmm.. Should make an effort to move the Games page from the unofficial wiki to the real one (And btw, I wrote Bridge Builder and Pipe Dreams in that one ;)) Feb 19 13:39:39 :P Feb 19 13:40:10 the wiki is being slow again... Feb 19 13:40:19 * xkr47 wonders what minime is called on irc, if he is on irc.. Feb 19 13:40:21 has it been slashdotted or something similar? Feb 19 13:40:38 CM: if you move the Games page can you make sure you title it Wishlist:Games ? Feb 19 13:40:53 etf|work: Surely :) Feb 19 13:41:09 I'm trying to sort out the fact from the fiction ;) Feb 19 13:42:29 minime created a Wishlist category while there is a Ideas category already.. Feb 19 13:42:56 yeah... hmm which should we use? Feb 19 13:43:05 etf|work, you minime ?- Feb 19 13:43:17 ?-)* Feb 19 13:43:26 nope. ericthefish Feb 19 13:43:38 ok sorry :) Feb 19 13:43:44 no probs Feb 19 13:43:45 Ideas (9 links) Feb 19 13:43:50 Wishlist (2 links) Feb 19 13:45:08 I think we should use Ideas then Feb 19 13:45:15 me too Feb 19 13:45:32 err... Feb 19 13:45:33 maybe I should add "Use Category:Ideas instead" on User_Talk:Minime :) Feb 19 13:45:42 but there is a "Hardware Wishlist" and stuff... Feb 19 13:45:43 sounds good Feb 19 13:45:50 yeah not sure what to do about those Feb 19 13:45:54 * CM goes for Ideas:Games Feb 19 13:46:00 woot! Feb 19 13:46:09 gaah :) Feb 19 13:46:15 why not Wishlist:Games? Feb 19 13:46:26 let's try to keep this sane pls Feb 19 13:46:26 Ideas sounds like the GSoC Ideas :P Feb 19 13:46:29 rofl Feb 19 13:46:35 who proposed the "alcohol sensor"? Feb 19 13:46:42 hahaha Feb 19 13:46:43 heheheh Feb 19 13:46:47 not me... Feb 19 13:46:54 but I'd love to have it on mine (A) Feb 19 13:47:01 does some1 know if openttd (transport tycoon deluxe) will be port on neo? Feb 19 13:47:08 Ok, Ideas or Wishlist? Feb 19 13:47:20 Fletch: Some guy said he'd work on that Feb 19 13:47:26 :) Feb 19 13:47:30 the aerometer would be a good idea indeed Feb 19 13:47:32 Fletch: Possibly... There's enough people willing to work on that :P Feb 19 13:47:34 does it need porting? Feb 19 13:47:35 I think everbody wishes the ideas will be implemented, so wishlist gets my vote Feb 19 13:47:39 koen: :) Feb 19 13:47:42 openttd already runs fine on my ipaq Feb 19 13:47:42 just look at the iphone. they use it for automatically rotating images Feb 19 13:47:44 * xkr47 votes for Wishlist Feb 19 13:47:53 koen: on what os? Feb 19 13:48:02 linux, duh..... Feb 19 13:48:05 xkr47: Ok, I'm with you on that :) Feb 19 13:48:08 is it playable with the screen size? Feb 19 13:48:50 it has an x86 based processor ,isn't it? Feb 19 13:49:04 Fletch: some screenshots on the official OpenTTD site are 640x480 :P Feb 19 13:49:19 mutrox: what has? Feb 19 13:49:27 both the iphone and neo are ARM Feb 19 13:49:40 ok Feb 19 13:49:45 most smartphones are ARM Feb 19 13:50:03 many use TI's OMAP chips... Feb 19 13:50:25 sure it runs in 640x480, i mean playable cause its on 2,8" screen Feb 19 13:50:39 Fletch: if it isn't you should get some glasses ;) Feb 19 13:50:49 s/some/a pair of/ Feb 19 13:50:50 LuitvD meant: Fletch: if it isn't you should get a pair of glasses ;) Feb 19 13:50:51 get an old gameboy magnifier Feb 19 13:50:55 lol Feb 19 13:50:56 so things had to be recompiled to arm arquitecture Feb 19 13:51:09 ^^ Feb 19 13:52:29 I was talkin about neo Feb 19 13:52:46 * LuitvD is off for a drink Feb 19 13:52:53 the interesting one ;) Feb 19 13:56:32 ~V12 Feb 19 13:56:42 v12 is, like, the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Feb 19 13:57:49 * Stephmw sighs at a job well done Feb 19 13:58:04 I'm sorry, it just had to be done. Feb 19 13:59:30 The alcohol sensor at least can be constructed according to known physics. Feb 19 13:59:40 I'm more worried about the teleporter. Feb 19 13:59:45 Stephmw, :) Feb 19 14:00:24 Is there a way to search the wiki saying 'yes, I really want the search results even if there is an exactly matching pagename? Feb 19 14:00:42 SpeedEvil: Doesn't the search button do that (rather than the Go button) Feb 19 14:00:43 yeah, click the "Search" button Feb 19 14:00:47 Ah. Feb 19 14:01:07 I was hitting enter. Feb 19 14:01:12 we all were :) Feb 19 14:01:53 the wiki currently has an average of two edits per minute :O Feb 19 14:07:02 eeeee Feb 19 14:07:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_bottom.jpg Feb 19 14:07:19 what is that gray (wifi-like) connector near bottom left? Feb 19 14:07:53 CM: Can I move your Wish List:Games page to Wishlist:Games just for consistancy sake? sorry Feb 19 14:08:12 etf|work: Sure, sorry for the _ Feb 19 14:08:38 it's ok Feb 19 14:08:39 :) Feb 19 14:08:42 MetaMorfoziS: wifi-like? I'm not sure I understand Feb 19 14:08:53 I see ony a grey cable, no connector Feb 19 14:08:58 that gray cable is like a wifi antenna conenctor Feb 19 14:09:10 on it's end Feb 19 14:10:48 etf|work: I'm off to a meeting, but I'll look at that page later. It needs to be cleaned up :) Feb 19 14:11:10 CM: ok if I find time I'll see what I can clean up Feb 19 14:11:12 I put a notice to go edit the official one in the unofficial too. Feb 19 14:11:21 excellent Feb 19 14:11:33 MetaMorfoziS, "Immediately above this with the grey wire connection is the connection to the built in GPS antenna." Feb 19 14:11:36 Don't want to remove that one yet Feb 19 14:11:38 so, what is that cable's function? Feb 19 14:11:40 MetaMorfoziS, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 Feb 19 14:11:48 oh okay Feb 19 14:12:28 yes i see Feb 19 14:12:29 :/ Feb 19 14:12:35 i thought the project changed Feb 19 14:12:39 and wifi planned:D Feb 19 14:14:38 It's planned - it won't be for the first release of phones (late march) Feb 19 14:15:11 Exactly when it will resolve into hardware is an open question, and Feb 19 14:15:45 at least there has been statements saying that people buying earlier hardware get some credit towards upgrades. Feb 19 14:17:46 what is that x name that it uses? i'm not found in wiki Feb 19 14:18:03 that what? Feb 19 14:18:29 mini x? or how it named Feb 19 14:18:37 How is what named? Feb 19 14:18:38 it's a separated x11 project iirc, not? Feb 19 14:18:48 the x that neo uses Feb 19 14:18:50 X Feb 19 14:19:00 I'm pretty sure it's stock. Feb 19 14:19:58 SpeedEvil: ahem, a stock "x11" wouldn't fit into the neos flash. I'm pretty certain it uses Kdrive, a small X server for embebedded devices Feb 19 14:20:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework Feb 19 14:20:34 says libX11 (7.1) Feb 19 14:20:43 can i whine abit now then? Feb 19 14:21:01 SpeedEvil: it's kdrive + dietx11 Feb 19 14:21:04 CoreDump|home: why not Feb 19 14:21:19 CoreDump|home: x.org is quite modular Feb 19 14:21:26 Can't find any detail on it. Feb 19 14:21:26 ah. Feb 19 14:21:38 dietx:D Feb 19 14:21:53 SpeedEvil: Use The Source (TM) Feb 19 14:23:14 RTFS? ;o) Feb 19 14:23:23 :) Feb 19 14:23:53 just look at the output if 'bitbake -s' or 'bitbake -nv openmoko-image' Feb 19 14:24:23 Harlekin: well, there has to be _some_ reason people put up w/ kdrive and friends. If it isn't installed-size I dunno what it could be Feb 19 14:26:21 CoreDump|home: generally speaking the kdrive is optomized for lower speed processors Feb 19 14:28:04 CoreDump|home: x11 has developed alot of legacy support stuff over the years, x.org has made some progress at cleaning that up, but kdrive was originally developed to run on smaller processors such as the sa-1100 Feb 19 14:28:33 prpplague: thanks for clearing that up =) Feb 19 14:29:30 CoreDump|home: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDrive fairly accurate description Feb 19 14:29:40 hi Feb 19 14:30:45 prpplague: that article speaks of Kdrive in the past-tense (sic?) heh Feb 19 14:32:08 CoreDump|home: yea, not sure why, since its still actively used Feb 19 14:32:31 kdrive is now --with-kdrive from a regular xorg tarball Feb 19 14:32:38 "As of X.Org Server version 7.1, the KDrive framework was integrated into the reference implementation and is now part ofthe generic source code release of the server." Feb 19 14:33:26 * xkr47 adds "Category:Applications" to all application pages Feb 19 14:33:26 how the on screen touchpad usable, on a 43.2 x 57.6 display? Feb 19 14:33:42 i saw a screenshot from an onscreen qwerty keyboard Feb 19 14:34:09 MetaMorfoziS: no, you sprobably aw a mockup Feb 19 14:34:09 MetaMorfoziS: MOCKUP Feb 19 14:34:10 That's designed to be used with a stylus Feb 19 14:34:17 re Feb 19 14:34:51 Is someone working on the onscreen keyboard? Feb 19 14:35:09 for me matchbox-keyboard looks ok Feb 19 14:35:21 and it takes custom layouting Feb 19 14:35:54 I'm working on mock ups with different layouts Feb 19 14:36:19 it's have an fsck'n big resolution on an extremely little display size:/ Feb 19 14:36:23 jannu: how's the butter-fingers layout coming along? Feb 19 14:36:51 the sonyericson's K* series have this size of display (nd 160*120 resolution Feb 19 14:36:51 jannu: as I'm seeing myself losing that stylus fairly quickly :) Feb 19 14:36:56 Stephmw: I've got a few layouts, which imho are semi-sane Feb 19 14:37:11 * LuitvD orders a 90-degree 2.5mm jackplug :) Feb 19 14:37:14 counter Feb 19 14:37:14 P0: a week, 2 days 20:49:04 (3.867 - 9.867 days); P1: 25.867 - 40.867; P2: 193.867 - 223.867 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (360) Feb 19 14:37:25 mokomakefile doesnt work :< Feb 19 14:37:37 parag0n: no shit, sherlock :P Feb 19 14:37:39 Stephmw: Full qwerty in landscape orientation seems actually usable Feb 19 14:37:51 parag0n: sorry :) Feb 19 14:38:41 Stephmw: Provided that the framework has some sort of vocabulary-based auto-correction Feb 19 14:42:40 hrw: you see all the latest marvell dev on the list? Feb 19 14:43:55 prpplague: have to check Feb 19 14:44:55 prpplague: argh. was not subscribedin janary and forgot to do it later - will read in a moment Feb 19 14:50:13 reading Feb 19 14:50:31 * xkr47 is on a wiki-rampage :P Feb 19 14:54:33 xkr47 - I'll do that, when I come home ;) Feb 19 14:55:02 ?-) Feb 19 14:55:38 prpplague: thanks Feb 19 14:55:40 hrw: np, just wondering if you were uptodate on it Feb 19 14:56:00 hrw: np, i've got most of mine working but its a mess, i've started looking at some of those patches Feb 19 14:56:18 xkr47 - wiki-runabout ;) Feb 19 14:56:50 Elrond, I'm adding appropriate categories to applications Feb 19 14:56:52 :) Feb 19 14:57:33 prpplague: so we should move to libertas and cowork with them Feb 19 14:57:55 prpplague: and we have user with device with 8305 Feb 19 15:00:38 hrw: yea, sounds that way Feb 19 15:02:39 * xkr47 finished updating pages to belong to the Applications, Panel Applications, Stylus based and Finger based categories Feb 19 15:02:56 * CM is hoping for cheaper 2GB micro SD: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37719 Feb 19 15:03:06 :) Feb 19 15:03:11 CM: it's cheap already... Feb 19 15:03:26 LuitvD: 1gb is, 2gb isn't Feb 19 15:03:35 At least not the ones i've seen Feb 19 15:03:36 CM: 2GB is too... Feb 19 15:03:38 :P Feb 19 15:04:02 but it's not cheaper then 1x 1GB :P Feb 19 15:04:09 s/1x/2x/ Feb 19 15:04:09 LuitvD meant: but it's not cheaper then 2x 1GB :P Feb 19 15:04:37 No, it's a bit more than 3 times 1gb, at least in Sween Feb 19 15:04:49 s/ween/weden/ Feb 19 15:04:49 CM meant: No, it's a bit more than 3 times 1gb, at least in Sweden Feb 19 15:05:06 sween lol :) Feb 19 15:05:32 sween >> s-ween >> strange weener? Feb 19 15:05:33 :P Feb 19 15:05:52 CM: then why not buy 3 1GB cards? Feb 19 15:06:24 LuitvD: Possible, but then you have to take out the battery to change Feb 19 15:06:28 yeah I know, the mini-SD slot is hard to reach Feb 19 15:06:53 Elrond, 44 edits in 60 minutes.. beat that :D Feb 19 15:07:25 prpplague: and your one is more or less working? Feb 19 15:07:32 CM: that aftermarket-backpanel should really be created... to host a full-size SD card slot, on an easier location... Feb 19 15:08:38 xkr47 - *G* I can't. Even if I wanted to. Feb 19 15:10:01 hrw: more or less, hehe Feb 19 15:10:10 xkr47: all edits in 'recent changes' except for 2 of them :P Feb 19 15:10:11 hrw: terrible hacks Feb 19 15:10:21 LuitvD, :) Feb 19 15:10:34 hrw: i need to sync up with the posted patches and start over Feb 19 15:10:43 xkr47: nice one :) Feb 19 15:10:46 hrw: since i intend on adding sdio support Feb 19 15:11:34 prpplague: how? creating an adapter for microSD > SD? Feb 19 15:12:12 LuitvD: i'm sorry, i did not understand your question Feb 19 15:12:42 prpplague: how do you want to add SDIO support ... Feb 19 15:12:55 you'll need a full-size SD card slot for that anyway Feb 19 15:13:26 or do you intend to just write the firmware patches to support it? Feb 19 15:13:55 LuitvD: i have a fully sdio slot Feb 19 15:14:01 s/fully/full Feb 19 15:14:09 prpplague: on a fic-neo? Feb 19 15:14:53 LuitvD: no, different device, but based on both the 2410 and 2440 Feb 19 15:22:32 OMFG, `make openmoko-devel-image` finally suceeded. thx rwhitby :) Feb 19 15:25:36 SpeedEvil, nice Oops page there :) Feb 19 15:33:24 hi all Feb 19 15:33:35 what about openmoko in russia? Feb 19 15:34:17 why should it be different than in any other country ? Feb 19 15:34:27 oh :) it good ^) Feb 19 15:34:37 is OS translated to russian? Feb 19 15:35:34 if no, i can do it Feb 19 15:35:43 hm .. what happened to the openmoko announce list on gmane? Feb 19 15:35:52 rudemon: add yourself to the translators list on wiki Feb 19 15:36:23 rudemon: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation#Russian Feb 19 15:37:31 hmm look nice Feb 19 15:37:58 i think that smartphone can be...hmm... great... Feb 19 15:38:16 :) Feb 19 15:38:31 no swedish translators yet.. maybe I should jump in Feb 19 15:38:51 wonder how much text there is to translate Feb 19 15:39:22 what kind of stuff will be translated etc.. Feb 19 15:41:04 all done Feb 19 15:43:11 what about wifi? is it integrated to openmoko? Feb 19 15:43:11 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 19 15:43:41 ohhh Feb 19 15:46:32 openmoko really need: Feb 19 15:46:36 wifi adapter Feb 19 15:46:46 * LuitvD applauds at aloril's wifi script :) Feb 19 15:46:46 multi-touch screen Feb 19 15:46:59 rudemon: and also need users which can read and think Feb 19 15:47:10 rudemon: why? that's not openmoko's problem ;) Feb 19 15:47:36 hmm... more internal space Feb 19 15:47:38 rudemon: it's the FIC Neo1973 that lacks those functions Feb 19 15:47:44 more RAM Feb 19 15:47:59 rudemon: 3GHz dual xeon too? Feb 19 15:48:11 rudemon: one simple question I have to you Feb 19 15:48:12 rudemon: yeah, and a G80? Feb 19 15:48:13 2Xdual xeon :) Feb 19 15:48:25 rudemon: you are welcome to solder phone with more ram, wifi, multitouch, 2xdual xeon and running openmoko. Feb 19 15:48:33 rudemon: did you ever USED linux pda or more advanced phone then nokia 3210? Feb 19 15:48:36 haha Feb 19 15:48:45 hrw: good one Feb 19 15:48:46 i use nokia 6260 Feb 19 15:48:58 rudemon: have you ever used linux? Feb 19 15:48:59 and use linux as my OS Feb 19 15:49:03 okay Feb 19 15:49:04 good Feb 19 15:49:08 kubuntu, debian Feb 19 15:49:11 freebsd Feb 19 15:49:16 rudemon: so you are not Feb 19 15:49:34 rudemon: so for now I will just add you into 'useless users' category Feb 19 15:49:37 rudemon: have you ever used an advanced portable device? (more advanced then a phone) Feb 19 15:49:44 PDA Feb 19 15:49:56 dell axim x51v Feb 19 15:50:07 rudemon: ever wondered what functions that device might need? Feb 19 15:50:14 hmm Feb 19 15:50:24 i can't install linux on this dell Feb 19 15:50:25 rudemon: don't answer, it's a retorical question Feb 19 15:50:32 LuitvD: he does. quake4, doom3 etc. Feb 19 15:50:42 but i see familiarlinux on HP Feb 19 15:50:43 hrw: lol Feb 19 15:51:02 there is linux for x51v Feb 19 15:51:25 rudemon: have you ever thought of 'fully open platform, with all hardware fully documented + open drivers'? Feb 19 15:51:31 ;) Feb 19 15:51:43 no Feb 19 15:51:44 that's all I'll ever need on my phone Feb 19 15:51:44 s/fully/near fully/ Feb 19 15:51:56 begin open means the lid can come off easily, right? Feb 19 15:52:01 muhaha Feb 19 15:52:06 lol Feb 19 15:52:30 accumulator: if that's so, then the FIC Neo isn't that open at all... it uses 2!! torx screws... Feb 19 15:53:09 uh oh, torx! Feb 19 15:53:18 hmm Feb 19 15:53:28 OMG!!! TORX!!! Feb 19 15:53:44 ;P Feb 19 15:53:45 what about packet management? apt? rpm? or other? Feb 19 15:53:50 ipkg Feb 19 15:53:56 upsetting.. as soon as i get mine i'm modifying the screwdriver head to something more common! :| Feb 19 15:53:56 rudemon: read wiki Feb 19 15:54:54 rudemon: I usually get my packets from eth0 Feb 19 15:55:07 no Feb 19 15:55:22 i ask about packet management and dist type Feb 19 15:55:34 deb? rpm? source-based? Feb 19 15:55:37 grr Feb 19 15:55:40 rudemon, and you got your answer ipkg. and read the FAQ, wiki.... Feb 19 15:55:42 rudemon: ipkg Feb 19 15:55:58 rudemon: http://wiki.openmoko.org ... please Feb 19 15:56:00 *plonk* Feb 19 15:56:06 thanks. thats what i need Feb 19 15:56:42 and koffeine++; Feb 19 15:56:50 ynezz: where? :) Feb 19 15:57:05 * LuitvD makes his firefox go *crash* Feb 19 15:57:08 really nice Feb 19 15:57:10 LuitvD: the gps and gsm chips aren't fully documented and don't have open source drivers Feb 19 15:57:35 loufoque: what do you mean not fully documented? Feb 19 15:58:22 loufoque: I bet they are... otherwise no sane hardware developer of any kind (commercial/private/opensource) would want that in their device... Feb 19 15:58:59 yes, under brutal^2 NDA Feb 19 15:59:47 loufoque: by 'fully documented hardware' i mean that the device developer documents what controllers are used, and in what way. Feb 19 16:00:26 and if the names of the chips/controllers are known, the chipdeveloper can give you more information about those Feb 19 16:00:33 Haha. Feb 19 16:00:48 what's so funny? Feb 19 16:00:50 LuitvD, ya, but like ynezz said, they are under NDA, so they can't. don't let theo know ;) Feb 19 16:00:55 'Yes, sign this NDA, and commit to buying 10K chips per annum, and we'll gladly sell you docs' Feb 19 16:01:09 lol Feb 19 16:01:14 Chipmakers are not all that open for more complex chips. Feb 19 16:01:38 we don't know what really lies behind that serial port Feb 19 16:01:49 of the GPS? Feb 19 16:01:49 yeah, i know... they buy dozens of patents on each chip design Feb 19 16:02:00 The GPS is actually quite a simple chip. Feb 19 16:02:00 well i understand it's different with gsm Feb 19 16:02:02 I can /kind/ of see it for the gsm but I don't like it. But the GPS? That sucks that a free version of /that/ couldn't be found.... Feb 19 16:02:28 The reason it's closed source is because all the proprietory smarts is in the software. Feb 19 16:02:32 Not the cheap hardware. Feb 19 16:02:47 I think the only problem is that assisted gps requires to use a server Feb 19 16:02:50 The GPS chip outputs basically doppler rates from the satellites. Feb 19 16:02:57 No, it doesn't. Feb 19 16:03:04 Go and look at the AGPS entry on the wiki. Feb 19 16:03:04 and the only free server imposes restrictions on what the gps chip should be able to do Feb 19 16:03:26 You can get _all_ the AGPS information by turning on the GPS for 12.5 minutes every 3 weeks. Feb 19 16:03:51 would be nice to have a free version of the gpsd, even if it had less features than the binary one. Feb 19 16:03:53 And 'good enough' for 30 seconds every day. Feb 19 16:04:39 All you get from the chip is the relative speeds of the satellites, and the 50bps transmission from them. Feb 19 16:04:49 You have to 'cook' the position from that. Feb 19 16:05:32 There may be ways to feed back to the chip speed estimates, to help with lock under poor conditions. Feb 19 16:06:17 An interesting case is DGPS - this really does require a few hundred bytes a minute - but gives you sub-metre positioning. Feb 19 16:06:33 compared to maybe 2-3m from normal GPS. Feb 19 16:06:58 Right. Feb 19 16:07:26 Has to be over IP annoyingly, as there is no DGPS reciever in the phone. Feb 19 16:09:37 SpeedEvil - Any idea how the waas/egnos sats send? Feb 19 16:09:50 In a different band than the GPS. Feb 19 16:10:07 It would I assume be mentioned on the hammerhead docs in large letters if it could do htis. Feb 19 16:10:22 Right. Feb 19 16:10:53 It feels like a "simple" sirfIII would have been "better". Feb 19 16:11:32 However, I can see where asking some server for local current GPS info (coupla hundred bytes) to get a one-off accurate position. Feb 19 16:11:38 could be nice. Feb 19 16:11:52 Yes, but the sirfIII is maybe 10 dollars more. Feb 19 16:12:52 $360 instead of 350 would not have scared me notably more, really. Feb 19 16:13:03 $380 Feb 19 16:13:11 And probably another 4g. Feb 19 16:13:17 :P Feb 19 16:13:42 I'd even pay 50 dollars more for WiMAX... Feb 19 16:13:56 The 'dumb' chip offers interesting possibilities with an optimised driver. Feb 19 16:14:08 It would have stopped all the gpl discussion and trojamned agpsd rumours. Feb 19 16:14:17 For example, peer-peer DGPS, where stationary Neos report the errors in the area. Feb 19 16:14:33 heh Feb 19 16:14:58 gprs-enhanced gps? Feb 19 16:15:07 yes. Feb 19 16:15:28 I hate GPS... I hope the Gallileo project will be finished soon... more precise, not owned by the USA, just better... Feb 19 16:15:28 i'm all for it :) Feb 19 16:15:28 SpeedEvil - Does one need the raw gps data for that? Feb 19 16:15:50 Not quite, but you need raw GPS data that some recievers won't output. Feb 19 16:15:59 You need to apply per-satellite corrections. Feb 19 16:16:05 LuitvD - I heard, one has to pay monthly fees for the higher precision with galileo. Feb 19 16:16:14 And then compute the position based on these. Feb 19 16:16:17 we'll probably have to wait for 2010 for gallileo Feb 19 16:16:25 we need some OpenSatellite project.... Feb 19 16:16:33 *G* Feb 19 16:16:45 :) Feb 19 16:16:45 The ionosphere has 'weather', which makes the GPS satellites appear to vary in range by 2m or so. Feb 19 16:16:49 SpeedEvil - the sirf binary protocol outputs some stuff per sat. Feb 19 16:16:58 I don't know it's enough. Feb 19 16:17:21 If you have a local stationary comparison site, you can get better positions. Feb 19 16:17:35 Not lookes at SIRFIII. Feb 19 16:18:01 It outputs the PRN per sat. Is that enough? Feb 19 16:18:35 (and you can request the almanac/ephemeris also) Feb 19 16:18:55 I am unsure - it may be possible. Feb 19 16:19:06 (and even feed it into the gps. so simple Agps might be possible with it too.) Feb 19 16:19:23 However, the Hammerhead is in the neo. Feb 19 16:19:54 Right. Feb 19 16:20:43 Still doesn't help with the hard part - the maps :( Feb 19 16:21:08 Hey, as far as I can tell the registration for projects on the web site is broke... Feb 19 16:21:32 I'd love to port Gnash to the OpenMoko platform. Feb 19 16:21:35 SpeedEvil - I don't know, if navteq sells map data stright to customers... Feb 19 16:21:38 So do. Feb 19 16:21:54 Elrond: I'd imagine they'd sell to anyone - for the right price. Feb 19 16:22:11 rsavoye_ - Do at home... and when you have gone anywhere and the registration works again, register. Feb 19 16:22:20 rsavoye_: its been 90% done already, check bugs.openembedded.org Feb 19 16:23:03 SpeedEvil - Yeah. ;) Add "at reasonable price" ;) Feb 19 16:23:08 Elrond: only 90% ? I've had Gnash running on OpenEmbedded for months just fine. Feb 19 16:23:10 rsavoye_: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1480 Feb 19 16:23:49 So OpenMoko runs OpemEmbedded ? Feb 19 16:23:54 * SpeedEvil looks up tomtoms mail address, for giggles. Feb 19 16:23:56 rsavoye_ - Yes. Feb 19 16:24:03 rsavoye_: no, openmoko is built using openembedded Feb 19 16:24:07 I didn't use the OE build environment, too strange. Feb 19 16:24:09 :P Feb 19 16:24:49 All you need to do is to wait till late march, then simply install GCC on a phone :) Feb 19 16:24:52 XorA: ah... so I gues Gnash will come along with the rest if somnebody makes a goo .bb file ? Feb 19 16:25:05 rsavoye_: yup Feb 19 16:25:19 SpeedEvil - Have the law/itar issues been evaluated to a pint, where we know, wethere writing a free gpsd would make this all into a munition or not? Feb 19 16:25:21 SpeedEvil: I've got two machines here running OpenEmbedded already. :-) Feb 19 16:25:22 rsavoye_: if you have experience, then updates to that bug I just posted would be most appreciated Feb 19 16:25:51 SpeedEvil: Plus I build cross-development tool chains, instead of these werid semi-"native" development things. Feb 19 16:26:08 I did all the work to make Gnash work under OE, but the bb files Feb 19 16:26:18 still don't quite work... Feb 19 16:27:08 Elrond: the comments I got back say that both of the people with experience say 'possibly'. Feb 19 16:27:37 I'm Fairly certain that simply shipping the closed source daemon, and then the user putting the open source one if they want works. Feb 19 16:27:45 However, this is a very silly area of law. Feb 19 16:27:59 i would say in SVN for the open-source one keep the limitation Feb 19 16:28:02 And one that is probably needing the opinion of an actual lawyer in the area to resolve. Feb 19 16:28:12 and allow no one to patch it Feb 19 16:28:30 or perhaps detect whether it is in the USA, and have the limitation only if it is Feb 19 16:28:53 natetrue, that's probably not enough to satisfy US requirements :] Feb 19 16:29:12 That wouldn't work, it doesn't say 'capable of ...' only inside the US. Feb 19 16:29:13 happily, an open replacement can be developed elsewhere and then people can use it if they think it's safe :] Feb 19 16:29:19 Yeah. Feb 19 16:29:23 _probably_. Feb 19 16:29:36 i'm trying to come up with some ringtones you can use... any ideas? Feb 19 16:29:41 I'd still want the opinion of an actual lawyer. Feb 19 16:30:08 * SpeedEvil does his telephone impression, and dccs a .wav to wansti. Feb 19 16:30:44 might find some ringtone music in creative commons Feb 19 16:30:52 "simple" ringtones are easy enough to compose anyway Feb 19 16:31:10 Well, if things go crazy, downloading/installing the replacement could be a crime in the us. I really don't know. Feb 19 16:31:24 just let people put their MP3s on as ringtones and you have happy customers Feb 19 16:31:32 Actually - the ITAR regulations are import/export only. Feb 19 16:32:03 So - if a US user was to - in the US - download from the US something written in the US, they don't touch it. Feb 19 16:32:17 Ahhh. Feb 19 16:32:18 any .mp3 .mod .mid .wav you want, per user, depending on the time of day, whatever. Feb 19 16:32:18 but i think it'd be cool to have an official ringtone... like some kind of "project theme song" Feb 19 16:32:19 Unless the person goes abroad, in which case they are an arms smuggler. Feb 19 16:32:24 avoid midi Feb 19 16:32:39 hrw: why? Feb 19 16:32:45 (not that I intend to use it) Feb 19 16:32:54 "Shit, I forgot to change in my travelling non-arms microSD when leaving home" Feb 19 16:32:58 :) Feb 19 16:33:08 Yes, it's insane. That doesn't stop them locking you up. Feb 19 16:33:17 Kero: on machines which lack midi hardware you need to use cpu to play it. it can take more power then mp3/ogg ;) Feb 19 16:33:17 SpeedEvil - And if they download from outside the US, it's grey, probably? Feb 19 16:33:30 Elrond: yes - at that point it gets horribly grey. Feb 19 16:33:39 As the software isn't a GPS device. Feb 19 16:33:46 yeah, one supposes it's not clear-cut, since, yeah, what SpeedEvil said Feb 19 16:33:50 hrw: ok (esp when using non-fpu, like madplay, I guess) Feb 19 16:34:04 hrw, ring tones play something like 5 minutes out of the day total Feb 19 16:34:07 But, is importing it, and combining it to make one... I supsect the only resolution you'd get would be in a court. Feb 19 16:34:13 they're not exactly a key power consumption area Feb 19 16:34:23 However, holding up a legal opinion at least says you tried. Feb 19 16:35:07 SpeedEvil: which, with "malevolent intent" or whatever it is called, is *important* Feb 19 16:35:09 I mean for FIC - an opinion saying 'In our opinion, a closed source agpsd, shipped with the phone is OK' Feb 19 16:35:23 we have no FM-chip in the Neo, hence no GM, hence we would have to use an emulation, which we don't want. mp3/ogg/mod/sid should be quite enough... Feb 19 16:35:49 I have real doubts that midi costs more to play than mp3. Feb 19 16:35:56 runtime, no Feb 19 16:36:08 costs more than .mod. ;o) Feb 19 16:36:09 but probably the flash ROM to store all the samples Feb 19 16:36:14 Oh - of course. Feb 19 16:36:17 timidity took lot Feb 19 16:36:28 8-64M for waveforms Feb 19 16:36:35 If you just load the required samples, it's not bad I suppose. Feb 19 16:36:42 But that adds complexity. Feb 19 16:37:30 yeah, as far as shipping goes Feb 19 16:37:41 have most of them midi or .mod for space concerns Feb 19 16:37:51 and one or two short mp3 ones to demonstrate the mp3 capability Feb 19 16:38:10 s/mp3/ogg/ should be shipped, for political correctness. ;) Feb 19 16:38:19 of course Feb 19 16:38:52 yeah I've been wondering if they're gonna ship mp3 players, and if they therefore probably have licensed it Feb 19 16:39:07 looks like the regulations for import/export says "... Capable of providing navigation information under the following operational conditions; (i) At speeds in excess of 515 m/sec (1,000 nautical miles/hour); and (ii) At altitudes in excess of 18 km (60,000 feet); ..." Feb 19 16:39:09 mjr - tihi. Feb 19 16:39:16 (I'd rather not pay for the license myself, though that's not gonna stop me from buying the phone) Feb 19 16:39:17 what bothers me is the 'capable' Feb 19 16:39:30 if an open-source daemon is available but not preinstalled, does that render it 'capable'? Feb 19 16:39:44 "capable of providing some futile piece of information" ?? Feb 19 16:40:21 I wouldn't think it would be "capable" still, but what do I know of US law Feb 19 16:40:39 even if they don't ship mp3 support i'm sure there will be a lame mp3 plugin for the media player Feb 19 16:40:51 (i'm supposing they'll use something like TCPMP as a base for the media player) Feb 19 16:41:12 capable, it'll never have been tested at either the speed or the altitude... Feb 19 16:41:39 well the law is just words and interpretations of it... if i wanted the phones not to come into the US i think 'capable' would fit my interpretation Feb 19 16:41:43 natetrue, of course one will be made available by someone, but at that point it wouldn't be fic's problem, and lo, patents pretty much bypassed Feb 19 16:41:52 hooray Feb 19 16:42:33 i would recommend shipping with software or links to software that converts mp3 to ogg for the phone Feb 19 16:42:46 for the non-power users Feb 19 16:42:51 who don't know what ogg is yet Feb 19 16:43:37 oh, here's a definition from the same document Feb 19 16:43:38 "Usable In" or "Capable Of" describes equipment, parts, components or software which are suitable for a particular purpose. There is no need for the equipment, parts, components or software to have been configured, modified or specified for the particular purpose. For example, any military specification memory circuit would be "capable of" operation in a guidance system. Feb 19 16:44:21 However. Feb 19 16:44:24 so it divides equipment, parts, components and software Feb 19 16:44:30 well then, any GPS chip that didn't in-chip limit those things would be in violation Feb 19 16:44:38 good point Feb 19 16:44:46 99% of commercial GPS recievers are the same as this. Feb 19 16:44:53 bonus in our case though Feb 19 16:44:53 They have a binary blob, which can be changed. Feb 19 16:45:07 since the software is divided from the equipment in that definition Feb 19 16:45:10 Flash upgrade, or whatever. Feb 19 16:45:17 only the software that does not limit it will be embargoed Feb 19 16:45:40 at least, that's my non-lawyerific opinion Feb 19 16:45:53 Why is it that Sony can force people to use their crappy codec and nobody complains but we can't force people to convert their MP3s into OGGs? Feb 19 16:46:02 because sony is powerful Feb 19 16:46:07 they own many things Feb 19 16:46:13 we're a bunch of losers in our basements Feb 19 16:46:24 cu Feb 19 16:46:42 natetrue: at least we can phone each other from our basements, soon Feb 19 16:46:51 woop Feb 19 16:46:58 and i assume there'll be an IRC app Feb 19 16:47:21 * SpeedEvil doesn't imagine doing a whole lot of IRCing from his phone. Feb 19 16:47:31 hey, if the text entry system is worth its salt Feb 19 16:47:40 * mjr ircs from his phone already Feb 19 16:47:44 The screen more than anything. Feb 19 16:47:50 * SpeedEvil has a nice light laptop. Feb 19 16:48:06 well especially with the neo Feb 19 16:48:09 the screen is everything :) Feb 19 16:48:19 i like light laptops too, mine converts into a tablet Feb 19 16:48:28 ...though it's a shade heavy for a tablet Feb 19 16:48:34 arm fatigue and all Feb 19 16:48:35 Mine doesn't, unless I attack it with a hacksaw :) Feb 19 16:48:49 mine isn't particularly light Feb 19 16:48:50 1.1Kg/6 hour battery life isn't bad though. Feb 19 16:48:56 that is nice Feb 19 16:49:03 If only it was faster than PII/300 Feb 19 16:49:17 mine gets 6 hours when it's set to dim screen / 800mhz cpu Feb 19 16:49:30 i usually do bright screen, 1.53ghz cpu, which gets me 3-ish hours Feb 19 16:50:10 battery's huge though Feb 19 16:50:20 Only 6 hours after I re-celled from the stock batteries. Feb 19 16:50:23 so have we heard anything about how text entry on the neo will work Feb 19 16:50:24 Though. Feb 19 16:50:48 stylus keyboard Feb 19 16:50:54 probably number pad Feb 19 16:50:55 ... Feb 19 16:51:18 I don't think the exact interface has been nailed down. Feb 19 16:51:27 i suppose it would be ultimately customizable Feb 19 16:51:46 9-button T9 for folks who used that on their old phone Feb 19 16:51:55 stylus keyboard for people who like typing slow Feb 19 16:52:00 T9 is impossible. Feb 19 16:52:00 On the subject of irc, I've been working on a few sketches for the ui of the messaging application Feb 19 16:52:05 maybe an open-source Graffiti/Jot clone for fingernailing the screen Feb 19 16:52:06 patented Feb 19 16:52:11 crap Feb 19 16:52:22 Grafiti would be interesting. Feb 19 16:52:27 Also patented I spose. Feb 19 16:52:39 the best idea I've come up with is to base the ui around conversations. Feb 19 16:52:56 i use Jot on my palmos watch, it's terribly inaccurate, but i bet on the neo it would be better, bigger screen Feb 19 16:52:58 'Damn you you bastard, do what I want' 'No'. Feb 19 16:53:07 so basically you have a conversation with each person in you addressbook Feb 19 16:53:36 you mean threading? Feb 19 16:53:41 along with a conversation for each irc channel Feb 19 16:53:51 SpeedEvil: basically yes Feb 19 16:53:57 that'd be cool Feb 19 16:54:11 and each contact has preferred methods of contact, AIM, IRC, text message, etc? Feb 19 16:54:26 natetrue: yep, that's the idea Feb 19 16:54:28 so if they're off AIM it can text them Feb 19 16:54:34 i like that Feb 19 16:54:36 Of course there is always the option of teaming up with OLPC to do voice recognition. Feb 19 16:54:36 i like that a lot Feb 19 16:54:50 voice recognition can be awkward sometimes Feb 19 16:54:51 (VOIP to kids in africa :) Feb 19 16:54:53 like in public Feb 19 16:55:14 natetrue: me too. hopefully something like that will actually materialize one day Feb 19 16:55:18 "hey girl you want to backspace backspace WANT to hook up tonight backspace TONIGHT" Feb 19 16:56:30 imho a better approach than voice recognition is to work on some kind of push 2 talk protocol Feb 19 16:56:37 so you can just send the voice Feb 19 16:56:41 sphinx voice recognition is decent, if its a limited vocubulary. Like it's not so hot for writing a book, but answering "yes/no" or "dial $foo" is ok. Feb 19 16:57:03 voice dialing is a concept i can get behind Feb 19 16:57:06 If only microsoft hadn't eaten all the voice recognition companies. Feb 19 16:57:29 and it looks like neo has very good audio parts, which will make for a clear wavefile for sphinx to grok Feb 19 16:57:56 i'd love a USB keyboard accessory designed for the neo Feb 19 16:58:07 Why designed for neo? Feb 19 16:58:14 yeah, to hug the design a bit Feb 19 16:58:18 and be thumb-board small Feb 19 16:58:24 though i'd loath carrying it around Feb 19 16:58:27 we could do T9 in sane areas like Europe Feb 19 16:58:48 jannu, well, at least we're still trying to stay sane, but yeah Feb 19 16:58:56 why can't you do T9 elsewhere? Feb 19 16:58:59 well does T9 only cover looking up partial words in a dictionary Feb 19 16:59:01 do the T9 patents basically cover all forms of predictive text input? Feb 19 16:59:18 natetrue: there is always the [[expansion back]] keyboard option. Feb 19 16:59:19 because of patents? Feb 19 16:59:26 it is quite small though. Feb 19 16:59:34 loufoque, apparently at least in some parts of the world yea Feb 19 16:59:34 i don't mind small keyboards Feb 19 16:59:38 mjr: yes, some of us are Feb 19 16:59:57 there is better than T9 though Feb 19 17:00:04 the advantage of T9 is that people are quite used to it Feb 19 17:00:13 Hi All, So has the Neo shipped out to devs yet? Feb 19 17:00:20 Not AIUI. Feb 19 17:00:22 counter Feb 19 17:00:23 P0: a week, 2 days 18:25:54 (3.768 - 9.768 days); P1: 25.768 - 40.768; P2: 193.768 - 223.768 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (361) Feb 19 17:00:28 AIUI? Feb 19 17:00:36 As I Undersant TI Feb 19 17:00:37 gah Feb 19 17:00:42 As I understand It. Feb 19 17:00:50 never saw this one before Feb 19 17:00:52 ah, i see Feb 19 17:00:54 danla Feb 19 17:00:58 danka* even Feb 19 17:01:04 :) Feb 19 17:01:12 loufoque - I haven't seen it before either. But it's on wikipedia or so. Feb 19 17:01:39 anyway, using few buttons with many glyphs each is actually a worse approach than using many small buttons with one glyph each Feb 19 17:01:45 How far does the BT chip/anteanna probably reach to the next Neo? Feb 19 17:02:05 no wifi? Feb 19 17:02:05 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 19 17:02:07 max 10m isn't it? Feb 19 17:02:19 bluetooth works up to 20m I think Feb 19 17:02:37 because with many buttons you can do smart error correction / word prediction based on the position of the fingerpress Feb 19 17:03:19 i.e. you can assign higher weights to glyphs which are drawn near the keypress position Feb 19 17:03:46 and add weights to bayesian probability that the letter is the next one after the previous one typed Feb 19 17:03:55 whereas with few big buttons all the glyphs in one button will get the same weight Feb 19 17:04:01 10-20m ... not really much for the neo<->neo communication ;) ("There's a neo user near you. Locating him... it's the guy over there at the wall" ;o) Feb 19 17:04:25 ooh can we send DRM'd songs to nearby neo users Feb 19 17:04:26 natetrue: exactly. and do vocabulary-based prediction as well Feb 19 17:04:51 natetrue: and stream drmed music to them over BT Feb 19 17:05:33 remember the Zune though, no one liked it enough to reach the critical mass required for "the social" to be welcoming Feb 19 17:05:40 the only problem is that I'm sort of guessing that apple has patented the small button approach Feb 19 17:05:49 actually according to wikipedia there are three classes of bluetooth devices, which have a range of 100m, 10m, or 1m Feb 19 17:06:05 i don't think they're putting that much power into the neo Feb 19 17:06:10 100m is a bit long Feb 19 17:06:11 because that's exactly how the iphone's on screen qwerty keyboard works Feb 19 17:06:38 we can have a keyboard that dynamically rearranges itself according to probabilities Feb 19 17:06:51 the letters most likely to be used next are directly under your thumb so you can't see them Feb 19 17:07:00 natetrue: you don't want that Feb 19 17:07:10 no, i don't Feb 19 17:07:21 because that would be terrible Feb 19 17:07:24 *G* Feb 19 17:07:26 Any o-hand dude around? would be nice to get a new certificate for svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private . The old one expired 12 Dec 2006. Feb 19 17:07:29 natetrue: if the keyboard isn't stable, you'll never learn to type fast with it Feb 19 17:07:49 stefan_schmidt: mail mallum@o-hand.com Feb 19 17:07:50 natetrue: just like all other ui elements Feb 19 17:07:57 i like the graffiti clone so far Feb 19 17:07:59 would be /perhaps/ nice if the keyboard input would rotate so the keyboard would run along the long side, thus making it a bit bigger.... Feb 19 17:08:06 i mean, what's more intuitive than "write the letter on the screen" Feb 19 17:08:14 koen: The big boss personal? :) Will do. Feb 19 17:08:38 dasher is quite interesting, but would be a bit much to unlease on "regular" users. Feb 19 17:08:43 jebba: I've got sketches of on screen keyboards in both portrait and landscape mode Feb 19 17:08:57 jannu, got URL? Feb 19 17:09:28 jebba: the problem is though that the v1 hardware can't do automatic screen rotation based on real-world orientation Feb 19 17:09:29 Can single X-windows be rotated? Feb 19 17:09:56 jebba: nope, I'm still actually sketching on paper Feb 19 17:10:48 i was thinking not rotating the whole screen, just the keyboard and putting the input box too. This would only work for some apps though (e.g. if you hit "search"). Might be annoying though. just brainstorming while compiling.... Feb 19 17:11:28 jebba - Yeah. That's why I asked, wether X supports rotating single windows. Feb 19 17:11:37 * koen plays with the appmanager: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/bd97cb0350dcac3426fc905727b534c9.png Feb 19 17:12:07 well, even if it doesn't, it would be easy enough to just design a sideways keyboard. Feb 19 17:12:11 if it had a camera you could take pictures of letters you want to type! Feb 19 17:12:18 koen: Mail is done Feb 19 17:12:29 stefan_schmidt: cool Feb 19 17:14:48 koen - Is that in xoo, or what? Feb 19 17:14:59 ah. How about a gyro like are in the IBM drives to detect tilting and such. :) Feb 19 17:15:10 Elrond: on an ipaq hx4700 Feb 19 17:15:19 Elrond: emulation is overrated :) Feb 19 17:15:37 koen - Ahh. ;) Feb 19 17:15:45 sure, if you have an ipaq emulation is overrated... Feb 19 17:15:50 An accellerometer costs maybe $5 in large bulk. Feb 19 17:15:56 Which'll add $10 or so to the pirce. Feb 19 17:17:01 it could make the GUI function differently if it was laying flat on a desk or held upright Feb 19 17:17:04 wifi would be nice... but do not overdesign ;) 3g, wifi and better batterylife would be my wish for v2.. Feb 19 17:17:10 Which brings us back to the whole "add a V12" theme ;o) Feb 19 17:17:21 but first... v1 ;) Feb 19 17:17:21 TARDIS - it's the only solution. Feb 19 17:17:32 How else do you fit PCI cards in a phone. Feb 19 17:21:39 i am buying v1 but will surely uy v2 with wifi, just imagine adding voip to the whole equation Feb 19 17:22:13 buying is overrated ;) Feb 19 17:22:44 not when paying, 8) Feb 19 17:22:45 * mjr whacks koen with a spectral analyzer Feb 19 17:23:42 @rn Feb 19 17:25:13 everyone wants better battery life Feb 19 17:25:15 I like this headset emulation idea. Feb 19 17:25:44 natetrue - I will ask for better battery life, when I know the current numbers. Feb 19 17:25:53 what are the current numbers? Feb 19 17:26:00 15 minutes talk time, 3 hours standby? Feb 19 17:26:08 I wanna know too! Feb 19 17:26:10 I don't know them. Feb 19 17:26:13 :) Feb 19 17:26:33 You can probably get hard minimum and maximum numbers from the datasheet. Feb 19 17:26:51 But, those are not likely to be usefull. Feb 19 17:27:14 i read 1200mAh Feb 19 17:27:22 so depending on current consumption Feb 19 17:27:48 for 24 hours standby it wuold have to consume 50mA in standby Feb 19 17:27:55 and that is a lot of current for a cell phone Feb 19 17:27:56 I was meaning take all the chip and module datasheets and integrate. Feb 19 17:27:59 oh Feb 19 17:28:11 that would very much be inaccurate Feb 19 17:28:16 though wild estimation isn't much better Feb 19 17:28:29 i would put standby current at 10mA Feb 19 17:28:40 peak at say, 200mA Feb 19 17:28:52 though i've never designed a phone before Feb 19 17:28:56 so who knows Feb 19 17:30:38 I only looked at the CPU once... something like 8h at full speed was my guess. ;) Feb 19 17:33:10 that's not bad Feb 19 17:33:24 i really don't mind if the battery life gets me through one day Feb 19 17:33:26 it hugely depends upon whether parts of chips are shut down correctly when not in use (e.g. not running headphones if nothing is plugged in) Feb 19 17:33:31 i charge my current phone every night Feb 19 17:33:39 not that i have to, i could charge it every other night Feb 19 17:34:01 Being able to not have to worry about charger, when you're away is nice though. Feb 19 17:34:04 jebba, i suppose we can trust FIC to get that right? Feb 19 17:34:23 nice but i have a laptop and always have a mini-usb cable around Feb 19 17:34:26 they're almost ubiquitous Feb 19 17:34:27 A large part of this is apps. Feb 19 17:34:27 well, some of that would be in software, but headphone sensing i'm sure they built into the hardware. Feb 19 17:34:45 IIRC, the headphone amp uses microamps statically. Feb 19 17:34:53 not at high volumes Feb 19 17:34:59 gotta get that power somewhere Feb 19 17:35:15 oh i get you Feb 19 17:35:28 no sound, no power? Feb 19 17:35:43 The amplifier can be switched of from kernel. Feb 19 17:35:47 Pretty much. Feb 19 17:36:02 The sound chip can be totally contrtolled over I2C. Feb 19 17:36:23 Right. Feb 19 17:36:24 The power amp that is. Feb 19 17:36:39 woop Feb 19 17:36:53 Isn't it connected to the PMU also? So we can just cut it from the power? Feb 19 17:36:55 i don't quite get why there was an amp added to the system as well as the WM8753 seemed pretty powerful/featureful without an amp. Feb 19 17:38:11 Elrond: dunno, not seen circuit diags :) Feb 19 17:38:26 jebba: you also need headphone,speaker, and earpiece amps. Feb 19 17:38:33 Doesn't the WM only have 2 channels? Feb 19 17:39:01 no, the WM has all sorts of channels. Feb 19 17:39:13 Does the WM have 0.5W ? Feb 19 17:39:18 Hmm. At 200MHz, the CPU uses 250mW. Feb 19 17:39:30 Fully active. Feb 19 17:39:48 Which is about 12 hours fully active, indeed. Feb 19 17:39:53 Maybe 8 hours with the screen on. Feb 19 17:40:04 not terrible Feb 19 17:40:08 SpeedEvil - 3.3V? Or what did the CPU take? Feb 19 17:40:23 http://pastebin.ca/363804 ? Feb 19 17:40:32 250 mW, not too bad Feb 19 17:40:34 That's mixed over 1.8/3.3 Feb 19 17:40:52 SpeedEvil, ya, WM is .5W for speaker driver Feb 19 17:41:08 jebba: how many channels power out though? Feb 19 17:41:22 And is that .5W @ 3.3Vcc? Feb 19 17:41:29 SpeedEvil - We don't have figurtes on the backlight... Feb 19 17:41:49 .5W just for speakers. plus headphone, differential microphone Feb 19 17:41:53 Sigh. Feb 19 17:42:03 * SpeedEvil computes likely number for backlight. Feb 19 17:42:44 jebba: you're going to use the speakers at the same time as the headphone? Feb 19 17:42:50 SpeedEvil: 42 Feb 19 17:43:04 gabaug, well, it can use speakers at same time as headphones if needed. Feb 19 17:43:08 Semi-educated. Feb 19 17:43:20 It can be computed from the display brightness, and the viewing angle. Feb 19 17:43:36 And the likely efficiency of the LEDs and backlight optics. Feb 19 17:44:08 "stereo headphone, BTL speaker, and BTL earpiece may be connected simultaneously." Feb 19 17:46:58 usually you run LEDs at 30mA each Feb 19 17:47:07 20mA is common nominal Feb 19 17:47:10 Anyway. Feb 19 17:47:18 yeah, i guess 30 is pushing it Feb 19 17:47:24 Instead of doing the above, I looked for powers of many similar modules. Feb 19 17:47:32 smart Feb 19 17:47:41 They seem to cluster around 200mW for backlight or so. Feb 19 17:48:37 SpeedEvil:are there 10 leds in the backlight? :S Feb 19 17:48:40 Which is probably reasonable, so 6-8 hours with everything fully active - say playing videos - is likely. Feb 19 17:48:53 There are many higher power LEDs than the 20mA ones. Feb 19 17:49:17 I've got a 1W AAA flashlight that's 20 times brighter than the one it replaced and uses the same power. Feb 19 17:49:17 6-8 hours of video playback is pretty good Feb 19 17:49:33 granted you'll be hard pressed to store 6-8 hours of video on there Feb 19 17:49:40 SpeedEvil: I think the LCD backlight contains standard 20mA@3V SMD leds... Feb 19 17:50:08 so there must be at least 9 of them to get to 200mA alltogether Feb 19 17:50:11 @3V is unlikely, they are more likely to be around 3.6 or so. Feb 19 17:50:16 200mW, not mA. Feb 19 17:50:48 3 or so is likely. Feb 19 17:51:04 ah Feb 19 17:51:05 right :P Feb 19 17:51:10 sorry, misread... Feb 19 17:51:15 those numbers for backlight and CPU are a factor of 4 better than my (old) iPAQ. promising :) Feb 19 17:51:19 * SpeedEvil looks up to see if the CPUs slow speed mode is useful. Feb 19 17:51:31 i hope it also has a doze state Feb 19 17:51:31 * LuitvD[eating] can't read accurately and eat at the same time Feb 19 17:51:34 LED brightness has gotten a hell of a lot better over the last 4 years or so. Feb 19 17:51:35 SpeedEvil - 12MHz. Feb 19 17:51:53 useful as in what can it do - do all of the peripherals work, or do some stop. Feb 19 17:52:05 Ahh. Feb 19 17:52:07 It's useful in that it's low enough power that it is concievable to run it all the time. Feb 19 17:52:36 Right. The core question is: Does the TFT work with that low speed... Feb 19 17:52:37 50mW maybe with everything running and idle, say 3-4 days. Feb 19 17:52:46 The TFT is... Feb 19 17:52:55 The datasheet says that it has RAM. Feb 19 17:53:11 SpeedEvil: for self-refreshing yes Feb 19 17:53:14 But the controllers linked are very, very dumb ones, just shift registers. Feb 19 17:53:30 Well - LCD product info, it's not a datasheet. Feb 19 17:54:08 Though the LCD has to be pretty dimly backlit to make much difference - the CPU at full speed idle uses around half of the backlight at full. Feb 19 17:55:36 SpeedEvil - Can you add the numbers we guessed up to the unresolved hardware questions wiki page (and heavily marking them as "educated guess")? Feb 19 17:57:56 http://xkcd.com/c149.html Feb 19 17:57:56 Sure. Feb 19 17:58:11 PCLK must be over 20MHZ for USB device controller to work stably Feb 19 17:58:31 I'm trying to work out how USB works at low speed, and LCD first. Feb 19 17:58:37 So no USB at 12MHz. Feb 19 17:58:48 SpeedEvil - Cool. :) Feb 19 18:01:15 actually the LM4857 does .5W for stereo speakers @ 3.3V too. Feb 19 18:02:06 jebba - Yep. Feb 19 18:02:11 SpeedEvil: discussing slow and suspend modes? Feb 19 18:02:49 Elrond, so then why have the LM4857? I just don't see what it brings to the table that's not already in the WM8753. Feb 19 18:03:22 jebba: loud distorted sounds to satisfy the asian market Feb 19 18:04:00 but how is it louder than the WM8753 if they both have the same .5W? Feb 19 18:04:30 maybe it's more efficient as the WM amp Feb 19 18:04:35 * jebba notes he's a sysadmin not a hardware designer and is curious about it, not questioning any decision, of course... Feb 19 18:04:37 but I seriously doubt that Feb 19 18:05:06 jebba - You verified the .5W for the WM? Feb 19 18:06:23 "On-chip speaker driver with 0.5W into 8R" according to WM pdf Feb 19 18:06:47 hmpf. Not even numbers for power consumption on this *hrm* gps thing. Feb 19 18:07:46 has to be pretty efficient if they're even thinking of putting it in a phone Feb 19 18:08:08 natetrue: nah, just needs good marketing Feb 19 18:09:11 The GL thing looks much like marketing. Feb 19 18:09:28 Elrond: prpplague: yes - I think the LCD works - but it may be too slow to actually be useful. Most other stuff seems to work too. Feb 19 18:09:41 As in - it may not meet the timing constraints of the LCD. Feb 19 18:09:50 Which there is no data on at all which is public. Feb 19 18:10:32 SpeedEvil - Good. :-) Feb 19 18:10:39 Hmm. USB might not work, right? Feb 19 18:10:52 There are _lots_ of clocking registers. Feb 19 18:11:04 I'm trying to work out what PCLK over 20MHZ means. Feb 19 18:11:18 Ahh. Feb 19 18:11:20 pixel clock Feb 19 18:11:31 If it means that it has to run at 20MHz, not 12MHz, then that's not so bad. Feb 19 18:11:35 No, it's not pixel clock. Feb 19 18:11:54 pants clock? Feb 19 18:12:03 SpeedEvil: what else would it mean? Feb 19 18:12:25 It's not - it's one of the key clock lines in the processor. Feb 19 18:12:33 There is nothing so simple as pixel clock - as it's a generic LCD interface. Feb 19 18:12:43 peripheral clock? Feb 19 18:12:43 Which may have several clocking schemes. Feb 19 18:12:47 The name of it helps not at all. Feb 19 18:12:52 pie clock? Feb 19 18:13:01 * SpeedEvil stabs natetrue. Feb 19 18:13:11 * SpeedEvil takes a bath. Feb 19 18:13:20 NO NOT A BATH Feb 19 18:13:23 i mean Feb 19 18:13:29 NO DON'T STAB ME Feb 19 18:13:37 SpeedEvil - USB might be a problem. Read the end of http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/05/#20070205-usbserial-neo1973 Feb 19 18:14:28 Feb 19 18:15:12 weird, timing issue Feb 19 18:24:44 Are we there yet? lol Feb 19 18:25:06 at least we are here Feb 19 18:25:41 lol Feb 19 18:25:50 so when can we download for testing? Feb 19 18:26:41 since last week Feb 19 18:26:53 google is your friend Feb 19 18:26:54 AcidBurn1 - It's nearly all online and public. Feb 19 18:26:59 lol Feb 19 18:27:17 ... unless you want to download the phone itself... Feb 19 18:27:20 have been very busy setting up servers... havent had time to read the 1,00 releases sent from the list this week Feb 19 18:27:21 lmao Feb 19 18:28:29 hmm I cant find a dl on google Feb 19 18:28:49 AcidBurn1 - Start at www.openmoko.org Feb 19 18:29:24 SpeedEvil - a sirfIII module is 75mA at 3.3V. (just to add some guess-numbers to your list) Feb 19 18:30:57 Can I put openmoko on my windows mobile nextel i930 lol Feb 19 18:31:39 AcidBurn1 - If you get to port the kernel... Feb 19 18:32:27 K... i must be stupid lol... I dont see a dl for openmoko online.... i am blind today Feb 19 18:33:09 or just lazy Feb 19 18:33:48 nah... im looking... im trying to work on my clients pc's and look for the dl... Feb 19 18:35:18 AcidBurn1 - It depends on what you want to dl. Feb 19 18:35:26 source: Get it by svn. Feb 19 18:35:39 binary for arm: It's linked in the wiki. Feb 19 18:43:16 I am using Windows.. do I need Linux to install? Feb 19 18:52:17 counter? Feb 19 18:52:18 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 16:33:59 (3.690 - 9.690 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week, 2 days (25.690 - 40.690 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week, 2 days (193.690 - 223.690 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (362) Feb 19 18:53:04 hello everybody Feb 19 18:57:17 hello Kite_DH Feb 19 18:57:42 are there any screens yet of openmoko? Feb 19 18:57:50 Kite_DH: yeah :D Feb 19 18:57:55 can i see them? Feb 19 18:58:04 Elrond: Thanks - I'm looking for better numbers. Feb 19 18:58:05 Kite_DH: take a guess ;) Feb 19 18:58:12 i would like to Feb 19 18:58:14 Kite_DH: look at the channel topic ;) Feb 19 18:58:30 eeeh..whats with it Feb 19 18:58:38 www.openmoko.org Feb 19 18:58:39 ;) Feb 19 18:58:42 oh Feb 19 18:58:44 thx Feb 19 18:58:46 :D Feb 19 18:58:48 Interesting contraption... http://1024k.de/dualsim/dual-sim-adapter.html Feb 19 18:59:03 amazing Feb 19 18:59:34 looks almost like my imaginary cellphone layouts Feb 19 18:59:37 will the neo1972 bluetooth-stack support a2dp? Feb 19 18:59:38 wanna see them?? Feb 19 18:59:42 i designed some with PS Feb 19 18:59:45 for motorola Feb 19 19:00:16 there's really only so many shapes you can make a phone ;) Feb 19 19:00:20 Kite_DH: you're free to do what you want :) Feb 19 19:00:22 <[g2]> Morgaine around ? Feb 19 19:01:06 http://i5.tinypic.com/2d7ahl2.jpg Feb 19 19:01:10 http://i5.tinypic.com/2yjpo5v.jpg Feb 19 19:01:13 http://i19.tinypic.com/2eed5ag.jpg Feb 19 19:01:16 http://i5.tinypic.com/2vk1get.jpg Feb 19 19:01:19 http://i18.tinypic.com/4ibfwxi.jpg Feb 19 19:01:20 :( Feb 19 19:01:33 not as nice as OpenMoko is Feb 19 19:01:40 but maybe i can use it for my plans Feb 19 19:02:21 Kite_DH: i like this one: http://i5.tinypic.com/2yjpo5v.jpg Feb 19 19:02:34 hehe KRZR Feb 19 19:02:35 slidephone right? Feb 19 19:02:38 =) Feb 19 19:02:49 i think its a slider Feb 19 19:02:51 im not sure tho Feb 19 19:02:55 wait a second Feb 19 19:03:24 yes Feb 19 19:03:25 slider Feb 19 19:03:26 ^^ Feb 19 19:03:41 I like the design... Feb 19 19:03:42 actually cellphones are a sideproject of us Feb 19 19:03:59 we're makin' an OS Feb 19 19:04:02 but I'd change it a bit to apply it to be an openmoko device... Feb 19 19:04:21 does ur cellphone have OpenMoko? Feb 19 19:04:26 (I'd love to see a WVGA screen in that size) Feb 19 19:04:38 Kite_DH: my current doesn't, but my next will :) Feb 19 19:04:42 heheh Feb 19 19:04:55 the only openmoko featured device as-of now is the FIC Neo1973 Feb 19 19:04:59 is there a hardware support for every cellphone? Feb 19 19:05:03 oh Feb 19 19:05:15 which will be available for testing next week Feb 19 19:05:22 for some people Feb 19 19:05:29 counter Feb 19 19:05:29 P0: a week, 2 days 16:20:47 (3.681 - 9.681 days); P1: 25.681 - 40.681; P2: 193.681 - 223.681 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (363) Feb 19 19:05:32 and in a month any developer can buy it Feb 19 19:05:37 how big is the team? Feb 19 19:06:16 hm I read once about 20 people Feb 19 19:06:21 Elrond: the closest match I can find is the maxim http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3447 - 13ma @ 3V Feb 19 19:06:23 do you need somebody to translate? Feb 19 19:06:26 im german u c Feb 19 19:06:26 but dont know fre sure Feb 19 19:06:41 maybe u could make a translation job Feb 19 19:06:45 kite here are enough over germans too Feb 19 19:06:51 Hjowever, this is without the correlators and addition hardware - which is not very much. I'd say 20mA @3V is probably reasonable. Feb 19 19:06:54 ok Feb 19 19:06:56 sry^^ Feb 19 19:07:06 Kite_DH: more translators is better... IMHO Feb 19 19:08:13 kit_dh sorry I misunderstand your question Feb 19 19:10:11 woglinde: what do you mean Feb 19 19:14:27 bluh, hell does exist... Feb 19 19:15:05 desoldering IC's without desoldering-litze or tin-sucker with a regular soldering iron Feb 19 19:15:26 :( Feb 19 19:15:40 What ICs? Feb 19 19:15:50 And do you want to keep them? Feb 19 19:16:12 yes, i do want to keep them, that's why I'm desoldering them Feb 19 19:16:30 but I just ran out of litze, and my tinsucker doesn't work anymore Feb 19 19:16:52 (it's a DIP8 PIC12F507) Feb 19 19:17:16 PIC12C508, sorry :P Feb 19 19:21:19 You don't need litz for DIP8. Feb 19 19:21:34 Take solder, blob it onto the 4 pins on one side. Feb 19 19:21:46 heat up, while gently lifting one side of the chip. Feb 19 19:21:57 repeat on other side. Feb 19 19:22:08 do this 4-5 times, and it pops out. Feb 19 19:25:42 Elrond: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management Feb 19 19:26:42 LuitvD: you do know that's a one-time-programmable chip? Feb 19 19:27:23 yes Feb 19 19:27:30 but I like the program :) Feb 19 19:27:32 ;) Feb 19 19:27:49 thanks, it works :D Feb 19 19:30:22 can the touchscreen hardware on the v1 return the area that's pressed, or just a single point? Feb 19 19:30:33 i have the kernel and userspace booting up under qemu fine now (x86 build). I can get xwindows to start, but it looks way "off" (wrong colors, color bars, etc) Feb 19 19:30:37 jannu: point Feb 19 19:30:51 LuitvD: damn Feb 19 19:31:04 jannu: it's a standard touchscreen, which generally gives you the average ;) Feb 19 19:31:24 jannu: if you touch two places, it'll take the average x position and the average y position Feb 19 19:31:45 LuitvD: so there's basically no way to distinguish between a stylus and a finger Feb 19 19:31:48 (that is ofcourse the simplified explanation, it's actually more difficult) Feb 19 19:31:50 no. Feb 19 19:31:53 jannu: not really Feb 19 19:31:55 you can't. Feb 19 19:32:04 well... Feb 19 19:32:09 lol Feb 19 19:32:34 there might be a way... but if you then use your nail, it'll think it's a stylus Feb 19 19:32:49 LuitvD: that's not a problem Feb 19 19:33:07 if the touchscreen can be probed rapidly, the pressure attack rate can maybe be measured... Feb 19 19:33:18 s/maybe/possibly/ Feb 19 19:33:19 LuitvD meant: if the touchscreen can be probed rapidly, the pressure attack rate can possibly be measured... Feb 19 19:33:51 I was thinking of using that information with the input system Feb 19 19:33:57 some touchscreen controllers can measure the wideness of the touch Feb 19 19:34:40 the idea being that instead of recording just the on-screen key that was pressed, the system would record the exact position, which was pressed Feb 19 19:35:07 ah i get you Feb 19 19:35:19 and use the positions to dynamically recalculate the letters that were pressed before Feb 19 19:35:21 given new input Feb 19 19:35:29 :P Feb 19 19:35:30 sounds CPU heavy Feb 19 19:35:33 then the system would use the positioning of the on-screen keys and create a probability distribution of glyphs Feb 19 19:35:58 and use something like particle filtering or kalman filtering to determine what words have been typed Feb 19 19:36:23 natetrue: yes. basically T9, but with a much higher resolution Feb 19 19:36:40 nice Feb 19 19:37:33 and with that you can have alternate dimensions to filter on too Feb 19 19:37:41 for example "thumb press offset" Feb 19 19:37:58 and if you can distinguish between a finger and a stulys, you could use that information to weigh the glyphs at different distances accordingly Feb 19 19:38:03 like when you use your thumb it's always x and y far off the button you want Feb 19 19:38:09 that makes sense Feb 19 19:38:41 ...does the hardware design for the neo have a stylus holster? Feb 19 19:38:46 i don't remember seeing one Feb 19 19:38:52 no Feb 19 19:38:56 eugh Feb 19 19:39:01 base on thumbs then :) Feb 19 19:39:05 which is one more reason to make sure finger input works Feb 19 19:39:10 exactly Feb 19 19:39:13 no one is going to carry a stylus with them all the time Feb 19 19:39:16 and anyone who does Feb 19 19:39:25 will lose it quickly Feb 19 19:39:45 I've always thought that if Iäm carrying a pen, I might as well use paper Feb 19 19:39:51 :) Feb 19 19:39:55 but are you also carrying paper Feb 19 19:39:56 s/Iäm/I'm/ Feb 19 19:39:56 Paper ++ Feb 19 19:39:58 jannu meant: I've always thought that if I'm carrying a pen, I might as well use paper Feb 19 19:40:06 and can you hit 'send' on the paper to message someone Feb 19 19:40:54 natetrue: surprisingly enough, no Feb 19 19:41:10 cool though that may be Feb 19 19:41:39 having a stylus is great for some things though Feb 19 19:41:41 unless there's one of these that supports bluetooth http://www.iogear.com/main.php?loc=product&Item=GPEN200N Feb 19 19:41:56 like sketching Feb 19 19:42:20 maybe it's just my lack of coordination Feb 19 19:42:27 but i like sketching better when it's on pen and paper Feb 19 19:42:56 I like most things better with pen and paper Feb 19 19:43:08 though i'd be loath to try and IRC with a pen and paper Feb 19 19:43:11 even if it did work somehow Feb 19 19:43:14 i am better at typing Feb 19 19:43:25 IRC + drawing would be fun. Feb 19 19:43:33 granted Feb 19 19:43:40 unfortunately the undo and layer functions of paper aren't exactly state-of-the-art Feb 19 19:43:48 tracing paper? Feb 19 19:43:56 Switchable 'whiteboard' and 'scroll with the text' images. Feb 19 19:44:02 SpeedEvil: you can get that with msn Feb 19 19:44:14 SpeedEvil: IRC+drawing I mean Feb 19 19:44:27 yeah. Feb 19 19:44:40 SpeedEvil: one of the actually useful features Feb 19 19:44:46 looks like my p900 is in its last breaths Feb 19 19:44:50 fic better hurry up Feb 19 19:45:02 my treo 600 is still churning Feb 19 19:45:12 still works great, except for 2-day battery life Feb 19 19:45:20 * CoreDump|afk 's K700i looks dead Feb 19 19:45:25 beats my palmos watch's one-day battery life Feb 19 19:45:26 :O Feb 19 19:45:33 well that hass been true for the p900 for a while Feb 19 19:45:55 * CoreDump|afk 's k700i has already begun to smell =) Feb 19 19:46:01 gross Feb 19 19:46:05 hehe Feb 19 19:46:08 i wonder what timeframe these 5 devices should appear in Feb 19 19:46:09 rubbing alcohol? Feb 19 19:46:25 naikan: kidding Feb 19 19:46:45 s/naikan/natetrue Feb 19 19:46:57 /sg? Feb 19 19:47:38 * CoreDump|afk is off to get some food Feb 19 19:47:51 happy foraging Feb 19 19:52:05 hmm. thumb press area has a diameter of roughly 1cm (well, my thumb does anyway) Feb 19 19:52:20 The corner of the thumb is less. Feb 19 19:52:39 if you were to put a full qwerty keyboard (11 keys in a row (10 for english layout)) on the v1 screen in portrait mode, you'd have roughle 0,4 cm of horizontal space per key Feb 19 19:53:19 Yeah - it's gonna sort-of-work. Feb 19 19:53:26 If you are very, very careful. Feb 19 19:53:59 SpeedEvil: yeah, and if the statistical correction thingie actually works Feb 19 19:54:00 With a stylus, it should work OK. Feb 19 19:54:10 i do not believe in querty on touch... more in adding a numeric-block and gsm-style input for single lines and bt-keyboards for more Feb 19 19:54:27 I do wonder about dasher. Feb 19 19:55:07 roh: the point is that with a full qwerty keyboard the predictive text system has more infromation to work with Feb 19 19:55:08 With the thumb in the corner, you rock it to simulate a mouse. Feb 19 19:55:50 jannu with a usable querty i do not need any prediction Feb 19 19:56:24 With human adult fingers, you can't do usable qwerty in portrait. Feb 19 19:56:27 roh: that is, we don't really even expect you to hit a 0,4cm size key, but if you hit anywhere close to it, the prediction system can quess what you wanted to write Feb 19 19:56:31 And it's really marginal in landscape. Feb 19 19:56:40 yeah. Feb 19 19:56:56 it's bearable in landscape, but I for one wouldn't use it Feb 19 19:57:16 jannu i propably need to touch and try it.. but for day-to-day-usage i'd vote for less keys and more smart guis which do not need text to be input Feb 19 19:58:08 I think 12 button 'standard' texting is probably about OK. Feb 19 19:58:21 You can just about do it blind, with practice. Feb 19 19:58:33 Though on a touchscreen, it's still going to be annoying. Feb 19 19:58:38 roh: my main objective is to make it usable for text messaging Feb 19 19:58:57 jannu i have a siemens simpad which has 800x600 with a onscreen keyboard on the bottom (4:3 display, 8 or 10 " Feb 19 19:59:37 roh: what's the width of the screen? Feb 19 19:59:40 jannu for messaging i'd propably prefer something that zooms when pressing.. and lets me move my finger Feb 19 19:59:53 On an unrelated topic. Feb 19 19:59:59 Well - sort of related. Feb 19 20:00:10 xvkbd + thumbstick gets me around 8wpm. Feb 19 20:00:22 * LuitvD always prefers on-screen qwerty keyboard over on-screen (or even real) 12-button keypad Feb 19 20:00:34 On a similar sized bit of screen to the neo in portrait. Feb 19 20:00:42 jannu its 4:3 aspect in 8-10 inch i think.. so one inch less than a din-A4 paper is wide? Feb 19 20:00:54 s/wide/the smaller side of the A4 Feb 19 20:01:04 with the finger using a small area of the screen to act as a joystick. Feb 19 20:02:24 roh: so basically a lot more than 4,3 cm Feb 19 20:02:46 jannu YES Feb 19 20:03:17 and i must admit it is pain to type there.. buttons are 1cm wide or so and 0.7 in height Feb 19 20:04:26 roh: that's more or less the minimum size for thumb input Feb 19 20:05:03 roh: and the best we can do on the v1 screen is 0,5cm Feb 19 20:05:30 thats what i meant.. will not really be usable without pen.. and still be annoying to type Feb 19 20:05:35 roh: that's full qwerty in landscape orientation Feb 19 20:06:12 roh: that's why I was thinking about the statistical/spatial method Feb 19 20:06:33 hm.. yeah.. give it a try.. and surprise me ;) Feb 19 20:07:07 roh: you can obviously just use the normal 12-button keypad, but you still need predictive input with that Feb 19 20:07:30 guis are not a technology which is near its perfection.. so there is a lot to try out Feb 19 20:09:04 roh: yep. and even if this statistical thing works out, it still won't solve the complete lack of tactile feedback Feb 19 20:10:50 samsung had a nice idea for that... use a piezo buzzer to klick or even a vibra-thingie Feb 19 20:11:02 propably patented Feb 19 20:11:28 so.. guys.. i have to leave.. to the bar ;) Feb 19 20:23:28 openmoko: 03mickey * r1043 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/openmoko-dialer.pro: openmoko-dialer: update .pro file Feb 19 20:23:39 counter Feb 19 20:23:39 P0: a week, 2 days 15:02:37 (3.627 - 9.627 days); P1: 25.627 - 40.627; P2: 193.627 - 223.627 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (364) Feb 19 20:37:30 i wonder why they left UMTS/HSDPA out of the phone Feb 19 20:37:42 power Feb 19 20:37:46 market Feb 19 20:37:50 volume Feb 19 20:37:53 price Feb 19 20:38:14 hmm, i see Feb 19 20:42:13 Maybe in a future version. Feb 19 20:42:22 here's hopin' Feb 19 20:42:49 that said i have a treo 600 with just GPRS and i do plenty of things with it Feb 19 20:42:56 email is a good app for that slow speed Feb 19 20:43:04 google maps loads somewhat quickly Feb 19 20:43:12 i mean, it's usable Feb 19 20:47:36 Hmmm, should I2C be renamed to "Neo1973 I2C"? Feb 19 20:50:41 why would they do that Feb 19 20:51:31 natetrue - What? Feb 19 20:52:14 rename it Feb 19 20:52:43 I talk about the wiki. Why: Because the page explains the details of i2c on the neo. Feb 19 20:52:50 ah Feb 19 20:53:09 it may mention other devices in the future though, I think it's ok as it is Feb 19 20:53:21 Okay. Feb 19 20:54:10 yeah, it has all the neo-specific info under a "neo1973" heading Feb 19 20:54:19 mm Feb 19 21:10:54 * LuitvD just expanded his collection of covertorcables :) Feb 19 21:11:22 just soldered 2 new ones for my to-be Neo :D Feb 19 21:11:40 how sweet Feb 19 21:12:08 and tomorrow I'll change the plug on my headphones to 2,5mm :) Feb 19 21:12:39 *G* Feb 19 21:13:08 soon I'll be all-prepared for the big switch to free my phone, and use only free software on my 'computer' hardware Feb 19 21:13:09 :) Feb 19 21:13:28 Except for agpsd. ;o) Feb 19 21:13:35 lol Feb 19 21:13:56 true... but it's not that bad... never used GPS before in my life... Feb 19 21:14:17 I think I'll like it :) not use it, but just toy with it Feb 19 21:14:47 Yeah. :-) Feb 19 21:15:21 what good is GPS for someone who knows his town, and only travels by bike :P Feb 19 21:15:35 I think I'll sell my phone and pda... Feb 19 21:15:48 :) Feb 19 21:15:52 might get some money for those device :) Feb 19 21:15:59 LuitvD, you can count how long you go biking :) Feb 19 21:16:01 s/ice/icds/ Feb 19 21:16:01 far* Feb 19 21:16:03 LuitvD meant: might get some money for those devicds :) Feb 19 21:16:24 yeah, can use it as a speedometer :P Feb 19 21:16:30 sure he did... Feb 19 21:16:36 don't need accurate speeds, just distances :P Feb 19 21:17:03 well actually... I'm about to build my own speedometer :P with a microchip or something Feb 19 21:17:09 program it, little OLED screen Feb 19 21:17:18 some nice extra functions Feb 19 21:17:40 hihi Feb 19 21:17:54 LuitvD - You can help osm with your to-be gps. :) Feb 19 21:18:04 osm? Feb 19 21:18:30 I already made my own bike lighting :) maybe I'll add a micochip and bluetooth, so I'll have a remote control for my lights :) Feb 19 21:18:33 that'd be neat Feb 19 21:18:53 as soon as the phone is near, *bling* Feb 19 21:19:11 LuitvD - OpenStreetMap Feb 19 21:19:15 (got nearly 50 leds on my bike :) ) Feb 19 21:19:32 Elrond: how can I help osm ? Feb 19 21:19:35 * LuitvD googles Feb 19 21:19:45 i added lights to the wrists of my jacket Feb 19 21:19:47 LuitvD - www.openstreetmap.org Feb 19 21:19:50 very useful as flashlights Feb 19 21:20:04 nice Feb 19 21:20:05 :D Feb 19 21:20:09 powered by what? Feb 19 21:20:10 LuitvD - Create a free map of your town. Feb 19 21:20:15 rechargeable li-ion Feb 19 21:20:25 wires run behind the jacket liner to an internal pocket Feb 19 21:20:29 gonna publish soon Feb 19 21:20:32 Elrond: I guess there are quite some free maps of dutch towns already Feb 19 21:20:42 natetrue: nice Feb 19 21:20:53 soon as i get this frickin' battery holder made Feb 19 21:21:03 LuitvD - Really? Feb 19 21:21:07 epoxy putty takes forever to set Feb 19 21:21:12 my bike lighting works off the dynamo, and sustains power in a goldcap :) Feb 19 21:21:19 LuitvD - www.openstreetmap.org/index.html check, if it's in there. Feb 19 21:21:25 0,3F 5,5V Feb 19 21:22:17 you can get bigger caps Feb 19 21:22:21 qemu: "Touch the crosshairs to calibrate the screen" :) Feb 19 21:22:32 jebba: lol Feb 19 21:22:39 jebba: what are you running? Feb 19 21:22:49 jebba: the qemuarm port of openmoko? Feb 19 21:23:43 natetrue: yeah, recently saw some 10F 2.5V caps :D Feb 19 21:23:55 link them in series and you have 5F 5V :) Feb 19 21:24:08 that's friggin power Feb 19 21:24:32 still nothing compared to the power densities of li-ion or li-poly Feb 19 21:24:39 unfortunately Feb 19 21:24:46 LuitvD, ya, the qemuarm openmoko port. Feb 19 21:24:53 natetrue: not quite... it's better... Feb 19 21:25:06 natetrue: as soon as you're driving it gets charged... Feb 19 21:25:38 and with that 0,3F goldcap I can run on the dynamo for a minute or two, and have leds burning for an hour Feb 19 21:25:49 jebba: where did you get that? did you build it? Feb 19 21:26:28 if you did, can I pleaeeaease have it? :) Feb 19 21:27:18 Elrond: how does it work? you run around with your GPS device, and name the streets you're running through? Feb 19 21:28:54 LuitvD - basicly yes. Feb 19 21:29:02 Elrond: cool :D Feb 19 21:29:31 sounds tedious Feb 19 21:29:39 the US gives away its street data Feb 19 21:29:40 Elrond: I'll see if I can do some stuff for the openstreetmap :) Feb 19 21:29:44 part of the census bureau Feb 19 21:29:51 LuitvD, yes. I built it. openmoko r1004. I'll write up some quick/dirty docs and put the images up before i sleep (but i may not sleep for a long time ;) Feb 19 21:30:37 natetrue - Other countries do not give it away for free :-| Feb 19 21:30:52 jebba: meh... /me wants it Feb 19 21:30:53 :) Feb 19 21:30:57 natetrue - At least not under a "free as in speach"-license. Feb 19 21:31:29 finally, an area where something about US intellectual property is better than other countries! Feb 19 21:31:44 Elrond: who mapped utrecht? it's quite detailed... :| Feb 19 21:32:02 Wanda seems to be very active on the wiki Feb 19 21:32:14 it's cool, all gov't publications are public domain Feb 19 21:32:27 LuitvD - Ask on irc.oftc.net:#osm I knew who might have been it, but forgot. Feb 19 21:32:28 so all the TIGER/Line data that describes all the streets is totally free if you can process it Feb 19 21:32:30 natetrue: hell, how hard is it to digitize US street maps... it's rasterized as hell Feb 19 21:32:49 what do you mean Feb 19 21:33:12 most cities in the US are all streets and avenues Feb 19 21:33:30 not a single town or city in the netherlands is like that... Feb 19 21:33:46 You don't have roads? Feb 19 21:33:53 Not in grids. Feb 19 21:33:56 or are they all boulevards and causeways? Feb 19 21:34:24 Streets and avenues don't imply grid Feb 19 21:34:25 the census data i think is all driving data correlated with aerial photography Feb 19 21:34:50 lots of it was collected before GPS too, i think Feb 19 21:35:47 i've got tons of streetplans of my town, dating from way before there even were computer... Feb 19 21:35:49 s Feb 19 21:36:33 jebba: if you're going to upload that image, where will you place it? Feb 19 21:36:57 LuitvD - If you wanted to use them to name streets on osm, you must make sure, that the copyright on those maps is gone. Feb 19 21:37:33 wow, strict Feb 19 21:37:49 in the US there's a case that says map data is factual in nature and thus not susceptible to copyright Feb 19 21:38:21 Elrond: what do you mean? I'm not going to use those maps :P I'm going to drive around, gps enabled, writing down names of streets from the signs Feb 19 21:38:33 natetrue - Well, if you put the "real facts" in osm, there really is no issue, where you got them from. Feb 19 21:38:44 But maps have copyright eastereggs. Feb 19 21:38:48 :P Feb 19 21:38:52 really? Feb 19 21:39:10 Yes. Feb 19 21:39:19 heh, make sure not to record the street "Copyright 1997 by Rand McNally inc. Boulevard" Feb 19 21:39:20 My town is full of wrong data in commercial maps. Feb 19 21:39:32 that's terrible Feb 19 21:39:36 "buy our maps they're inaccurate" Feb 19 21:39:50 bad selling point Feb 19 21:40:02 Buy our maps, they've copyright watermarks" ;) Feb 19 21:40:06 :P Feb 19 21:40:24 buy our maps too, and find the 10 diffrences :D Feb 19 21:40:38 *lol* Feb 19 21:40:53 i found that with epoxy putty if i mix more of the thicker stuff it sets faster! Feb 19 21:41:07 It's no big errors. Usually no body will enter addresses in those streets. Feb 19 21:41:22 very useful when you're making your own headphones http://cre.ations.net/creation/create-your-own-noise-blocking-in-ear-headphones Feb 19 21:41:28 (you wouldn't want to park in front of the courthouse, do you? ;) ) Feb 19 21:41:35 natetrue: which is the 'thicker' stuff? the hardener or the base? Feb 19 21:41:35 LuitvD, i'll just upload it to an ftp server i have access to. Right now X is fine, but doing 640x480 instead of 480x640... ;) Feb 19 21:41:43 i'm not sure, they're not labeled Feb 19 21:41:50 they're just "part a" and "part b" Feb 19 21:41:57 jebba: which FTP server? Feb 19 21:42:05 jebba: wanna know where I can find it tomorrow :P Feb 19 21:42:23 natetrue: and of which do you need to mix more? a or b? Feb 19 21:42:31 (by the description) Feb 19 21:42:53 LuitvD, i'll post to the list Feb 19 21:43:07 jebba: great :) Feb 19 21:45:22 LuitvD - You're in utrecht? Feb 19 21:45:45 Elrond: just east of utrecht Feb 19 21:46:00 about 10 kilometers east Feb 19 21:46:34 Ahh Feb 19 21:46:58 how about you? do you live in utrecht? :) Feb 19 21:47:05 XD Feb 19 21:47:18 No. ;) Feb 19 21:47:27 Near Frankfurt,Germany Feb 19 21:47:48 yay, linus finally merged rmk's tree Feb 19 21:48:38 Elrond: I do go to Utrecht on a regular basis though... so the OSM map of utrecht will be usefull for me :) Feb 19 21:49:14 LuitvD - :) Feb 19 21:49:21 gosh I wish wiki had a annotate function :) Feb 19 21:49:43 fluffs: The one with the many breaks or a new one? Feb 19 21:49:44 Elrond: that way I'll never get lost in utrecht again at night :) Feb 19 21:49:53 xkr47 - BTW: Should we put Category:Hardware on all hardw (happened once, after a performance of Pendulum) Feb 19 21:50:26 Elrond, you mean wishlist pages also? Feb 19 21:50:30 anybody here fan of Pendulum? or other D'n'B music? Feb 19 21:50:57 xkr47 - wishlist probably not. Feb 19 21:51:08 xkr47: maybe make Hardware:Wishlist redirect to Wishlist:Hardware :P Feb 19 21:51:14 Elrond, yeah I would think so too Feb 19 21:51:20 LuitvD, naah :) Feb 19 21:51:24 why not? Feb 19 21:51:26 ... Those probably on "Category:WishListHardware" or so. Feb 19 21:51:29 makes it neater... Feb 19 21:51:39 LuitvD: was at a pendulum gig some weeks back Feb 19 21:51:50 alp: where? Feb 19 21:51:51 LuitvD, it's part 'b' Feb 19 21:51:56 Elrond, I guess all the I2C, LM1234 etc would fit the Hardware category Feb 19 21:52:05 i'm still trying to decide what to do with the other 90 17000mcd 3mm white LEDs i ordered Feb 19 21:52:11 used 10 in my jacket cuffs Feb 19 21:52:26 what angle? Feb 19 21:52:34 not sure, probably small though Feb 19 21:52:36 15 degrees-ish Feb 19 21:52:53 xkr47 - Yeah. I was considering going round and adding it to all the pages linked from "Hardware". Feb 19 21:53:04 LuitvD: warwick university, hosted at our fortnightly rave night Pressure Feb 19 21:53:21 Elrond, I used emacs as help for easy editing :) Feb 19 21:53:25 alp: nice :) Feb 19 21:53:43 I first copypasted all pages to edit to emacs, then macroed together the edit urls and then finally edited all in one swoop Feb 19 21:53:45 xkr47 - hehe, I should leave the mass-editing job to you. ;o) Feb 19 21:53:49 (in multiple tabs :) Feb 19 21:53:51 * LuitvD is going to pendulum next weekend Feb 19 21:54:05 yeah, i wrote some great code after getting back that morning and even made a release Feb 19 21:54:05 Elrond, if you want Feb 19 21:54:40 xkr47 - Let me start at it. When I'm tired, I'll leave the rest to you. ;) Feb 19 21:54:44 alp: D'n'B + programming :D Feb 19 21:54:55 Elrond, I mean if you collect a list of pages, .. Feb 19 21:56:55 yo, what is the 'mtn' program Feb 19 21:57:07 internet says it's monotone but it's apparently not Feb 19 21:57:21 i installed monotone and there are no files named 'mtn' on my system Feb 19 21:58:34 /usr/bin/mtn Feb 19 21:58:38 is included in my monotone package Feb 19 21:58:46 i've got OE.mtn... Feb 19 21:58:52 monotone-0.32 Feb 19 21:59:09 weird Feb 19 21:59:10 a file created by rwhitby's mokoMakefile Feb 19 22:00:08 xkr47 - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware should be list. If any Hardware page is missing, it should be added there anyway. Feb 19 22:00:10 mine says 0.24 Feb 19 22:00:20 weird, apt-get install should install a recent version, shouldn't it? Feb 19 22:00:28 natetrue: you must use 0.32 Feb 19 22:00:56 ok Feb 19 22:00:58 weöö Feb 19 22:01:01 natetrue: apt-get doesn't always include the latest stable version, it gets the latest stable verified version Feb 19 22:01:06 well.. maybe I postpone this til tomorrow :) Feb 19 22:01:17 xkr47: postpone what? Feb 19 22:01:26 (Elrond) Feb 19 22:01:32 editing.. Feb 19 22:01:44 Yeah. Feb 19 22:01:49 maybe I can do something usefull on the wiki... Feb 19 22:02:15 * LuitvD hasn't edited more then 3 pages yet... not really much of a participation is it? :P Feb 19 22:02:59 better than making lots of misinformative edits Feb 19 22:03:05 true Feb 19 22:03:36 there we go, latest monotone makes the mtn Feb 19 22:09:18 the neo actually has a quite nice power amplifier... Feb 19 22:09:49 i wonder if it can be leveraged to do FM transmission Feb 19 22:10:15 what's the impedance of the internal 1W speakers? Feb 19 22:10:32 LuitvD - No idea Feb 19 22:10:38 19kHz i'd wager Feb 19 22:10:47 that's no impedance ;) Feb 19 22:11:08 ahh, you caught me Feb 19 22:11:50 "0.5W stereo speaker output, used for the main speakers." says the wiki, and the power amplifier generates 1.2W on 8Ohm Feb 19 22:12:23 so it must be 16 Ohms impedance, which means it's powered to 0,6W... Feb 19 22:13:51 how loud is that in babies Feb 19 22:14:06 babies? Feb 19 22:14:17 lol, that's not an SI unit now is it? :P Feb 19 22:15:09 it's in line right behind rhode islands and libraries of congress Feb 19 22:15:59 * LuitvD is confused Feb 19 22:20:32 natetrue: you can't directly convert output power to amount of noise... because you don't know the amount of energy conversion of the speakers.. Feb 19 22:20:56 what do you call that for speakers... amount of electrical energy converted to sound... Feb 19 22:21:04 anybody? :P Feb 19 22:22:23 I once was supposed to know it ;) Feb 19 22:22:47 Elrond: lol Feb 19 22:23:25 I'd call it "Rendement" ... most translaters convert that to "Yield" ... but that's not it.. I guess Feb 19 22:23:53 I forgot it... Feb 19 22:24:13 I've no idea, but "effective power output"? Feb 19 22:24:30 more like relative effective power output... Feb 19 22:24:44 effective sounds ... too absolute :P Feb 19 22:24:55 I think you're the expert on this Feb 19 22:25:35 don't think so... Feb 19 22:25:41 me I just crank the volume up as far as it'll go Feb 19 22:25:52 I'm dutch :P that makes be a bad english speaker Feb 19 22:26:08 ericthefish: lol, and blow up your speakers :) Feb 19 22:26:13 "efficiency factor" Feb 19 22:26:30 ? Feb 19 22:26:30 write the word in dutch - I wouldn't know the difference anyway ;) Feb 19 22:26:47 efficiency sounds good enough :P Feb 19 22:26:48 lol Feb 19 22:26:50 In german it's "Wirkungsgrad". Feb 19 22:27:09 in dutch it's "Rendement" Feb 19 22:27:19 (I already said that I guess...) Feb 19 22:28:29 While I play on epay: When will be the first neo on epay? ;) Feb 19 22:29:13 epay? Feb 19 22:29:21 LuitvD - aka ebay. Feb 19 22:29:41 lol Feb 19 22:29:47 aka epain. Feb 19 22:29:58 :) Feb 19 22:32:42 Elrond: soldering thick double shielded wire into a 2,5mm jackplug socket is more a pain then buying on ebay Feb 19 22:33:04 * LuitvD just succeeded in doing that... Feb 19 22:33:44 I couldn't do something like that anyway. Feb 19 22:34:08 now I have a 2,5mm male jack > 3.5mm female jack and a 3,5mm male jack > 2,5mm female jack :) Feb 19 22:34:38 tihi. Feb 19 22:34:53 You bought the right 2.5mm ones? With 4 rings? Feb 19 22:35:25 Elrond: will make one with 4 rings.. but it's not necessary Feb 19 22:36:03 I guess, the 4 rings are for mic and speakers. Feb 19 22:36:26 soldering thick audio cable in a regular 2,5mm female jack is difficult enough with only 3 rings :P Feb 19 22:37:06 Elrond: yeah, but I don't need to connect 3,5mm headsets to my devices... I'll only use it for regular headphones Feb 19 22:37:27 the microphone will be pulled to ground that way... Feb 19 22:37:40 is that bad? Feb 19 22:38:00 * LuitvD hopes that doesn't short-out he microphone amplifier Feb 19 22:38:26 * LuitvD thinks it won't Feb 19 22:39:10 but i'm not sure yet... :( Feb 19 22:39:22 I don't know... I thought, they were powerd/active mics? Feb 19 22:39:50 yeah... Feb 19 22:40:07 hope shorting the terminals won't short out the mic power... Feb 19 22:40:20 err Feb 19 22:40:35 they're powered by the plug ;) Feb 19 22:40:47 normal headsets don't use batteries or something :) Feb 19 22:41:14 (anyways, I can get a decent headset for about 5 bucks, so if this won't work, I'll just buy that Feb 19 22:41:59 the headset is included with the neo, I hear. Feb 19 22:44:06 Elrond: is it now? :O Feb 19 22:44:10 Elrond: that'd be nice Feb 19 22:44:41 Elrond: just a regular headset, or a fashion-headset like the ipod earbuds? :P Feb 19 22:45:52 I have no idea. Feb 19 22:46:20 Hopefully no 50Cent crap... Feb 19 22:47:01 honestly, I don't care what kind of headset :P don't even need a headset I guess... Feb 19 22:47:30 Elrond: a mini-usb > usb host connector would be nicer :P Feb 19 22:47:42 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#using_analog_.284pin_2.5mm.29_headset Feb 19 22:47:52 Read the first sentence there. Feb 19 22:48:32 * LuitvD waits for the page to load... Feb 19 22:48:46 * LuitvD reads Feb 19 22:48:49 * LuitvD smiles Feb 19 22:49:57 that wolfson chip really is a nice IC Feb 19 22:50:08 And the sentence is there from the first version in january of this page. Feb 19 22:50:14 I like the bluetooth-headset-function Feb 19 22:50:34 Yeah, they made a good job. Feb 19 22:50:39 Elrond: haven't read that page that thoroughly yet Feb 19 22:50:54 no, they've chosen the right chip :P Feb 19 22:51:14 openmoko: 03mickey * r1044 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-battery/data/ (Battery_00.png Battery_Warning.png): openmoko-panel-battery: rename warning image to 00 Feb 19 22:51:42 what's that? Feb 19 22:52:20 What's what? Feb 19 22:52:22 does CIA-7 report all the changes in the trunk src? Feb 19 22:52:48 haven't seen him do that before... Feb 19 22:54:33 It did it before. While back. Feb 19 22:55:53 LuitvD: http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/openmoko Feb 19 22:57:02 rwhitby: ah, nice :) Feb 19 22:57:26 rwhitby: does it check changes in the svn automatically? or is it just a place to announce important changes? Feb 19 22:57:39 it should be doing it automatically Feb 19 22:57:45 okay :P Feb 19 22:59:10 that's nice Feb 19 23:03:04 openmoko: 03mickey * r1045 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-panel-applet.h: openmoko-libs: revert bogus GtkAlignment -> GtkWidget rename Feb 19 23:04:29 counter Feb 19 23:04:29 P0: a week, 2 days 12:21:46 (3.515 - 9.515 days); P1: 25.515 - 40.515; P2: 193.515 - 223.515 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (365) Feb 19 23:06:22 Hm. Will there *be* preorders? Feb 19 23:17:51 ooo Feb 19 23:19:23 What is the premise of this? Feb 19 23:19:38 The website isn't too descriptive Feb 19 23:19:51 daxxar - "/msg aloril counter?" has the answer. Feb 19 23:20:10 Eleaf - What does "premise" mean to you? Feb 19 23:20:27 what does this project entail? Feb 19 23:20:28 Elrond: It says 'unknown' - I was assuming it meant 'unknown ETA'. :-) Feb 19 23:20:38 Not 'unknown wether or not it'll occur' Feb 19 23:20:38 How does it work. Feb 19 23:20:59 Eleaf - Hmm, longer story... I need to go to bed now, really. Feb 19 23:21:03 Good night people. :) Feb 19 23:21:19 goodnight Feb 19 23:21:46 do you have any idea how to download this ? Feb 19 23:21:47 svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/repos/dates/branches/private/omoko' Feb 19 23:22:06 NOTE: Fetch svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private;module=omoko;proto=http Feb 19 23:24:19 Magon proto=https Feb 19 23:25:19 but i have no login... Feb 19 23:25:46 it's anonymous, but only https Feb 19 23:25:59 ok thx Feb 19 23:26:10 i have changed all https to http Feb 19 23:28:12 Magon: You mean http -> https, right? Feb 19 23:28:29 no ..all https -> http Feb 19 23:28:29 Magon: it's only neede for svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private Feb 19 23:28:40 since i have no access to https svn Feb 19 23:28:47 but this one is abnormal Feb 19 23:29:09 ah, you changed it in the past Feb 19 23:29:24 yes Feb 19 23:29:48 No such file or directory: '/opt/openembedded/openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates/./compile-fix.patch' Feb 19 23:29:51 ?? Feb 19 23:30:34 iirc the patch was removed Feb 19 23:30:56 ok..co i need to remove it from aplaying Feb 19 23:31:05 yes Feb 19 23:31:36 But it should be fixed in the same commit while removing the patch Feb 19 23:31:51 i have head..i hope Feb 19 23:31:58 Perhaps some caching? Feb 19 23:32:14 You can try to bitbake -c clean Feb 19 23:32:41 ok Feb 19 23:36:46 openmoko: 03mickey * r1046 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-battery/ (3 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-panel-battery: first version working w/ matchbox-panel-2 Feb 19 23:37:23 ooh, CIA for openmoko Feb 19 23:37:24 nice Feb 19 23:37:30 lol Feb 19 23:38:32 but seriously.. Feb 19 23:38:35 what is this moko project? Feb 19 23:38:50 Eleaf: read openmoko.org ;) Feb 19 23:39:07 there isn't much info there LuitvD Feb 19 23:39:10 that's why I came here. Feb 19 23:39:20 It's just like... get ready for an open phone...yay. Feb 19 23:39:21 Eleaf: summary: It's a linux distro for mobile phones, Feb 19 23:39:35 and what is the status? Support? Feb 19 23:39:44 Eleaf: and the first open mobile phone will be the FIC Neo 1973 Feb 19 23:39:47 It would be cool if it ran on my 15 year old cell phone. Feb 19 23:40:02 hmm Feb 19 23:40:21 which will be tested for a while now (the hardware has just been 'finished', and will be tested from now on) Feb 19 23:40:27 and the software is Openmoko :) Feb 19 23:40:31 Eleaf: No chance. It uses linux. Means you need linux support for your phone. Feb 19 23:40:51 hmm Feb 19 23:41:02 so almost any new phone? Feb 19 23:41:12 Or is it even then still restricted to a few phones. Feb 19 23:41:16 Eleaf: ...which has a linux port. Feb 19 23:41:29 uhh Feb 19 23:41:37 I have no idea which those are ;) Feb 19 23:42:33 People working on support for some motorola and HTC smartphones. Feb 19 23:42:48 * SuN is looking for barcode image interpreting software Feb 19 23:42:49 Eleaf: the Neo1973 ('the' openmoko phone for now) is quite a cool device... take a look at the specs: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware Feb 19 23:43:20 LuitvD, so does openmoko work with anything yet? Feb 19 23:43:35 Eleaf: yes, that device Feb 19 23:43:48 oh, but how well? Feb 19 23:43:52 Stable? Feb 19 23:43:54 though, openmoko is still in a testing and development phase Feb 19 23:43:59 ah yes Feb 19 23:44:03 far from stable I guess... Feb 19 23:44:16 That looks like a cool phone, but quite expensive. Feb 19 23:44:27 Eleaf: look at the alternatives... Feb 19 23:44:46 the Greenphone is even more expensive (about $800 IIRC) Feb 19 23:44:50 I'm not seeing it Feb 19 23:45:13 so then how do you connect with a service provider LuitvD ? Feb 19 23:45:36 Eleaf: just insert a SIM card, and the GSM daemon will connect Feb 19 23:45:42 as usual Feb 19 23:45:47 hmm Feb 19 23:45:52 (just like on most smartphones) Feb 19 23:46:04 That's pretty cool Feb 19 23:46:25 that's maybe even the most uncool part :P Feb 19 23:46:29 Get subscription from online store -> get them to cashback the sum the provider pays so you can normally get a free phone -> not so expensive. Feb 19 23:46:38 Eleaf: have you read wiki.openmoko.org yet? Feb 19 23:46:55 every single question you have asked so far is answered there. Feb 19 23:46:58 I was there only quickly Feb 19 23:47:05 well, be there slowly :-) Feb 19 23:47:08 it's interface scared me off ;) Feb 19 23:47:24 Eleaf: then use the search ;) I bet you know how to use that Feb 19 23:47:28 I must have gone to the mailing list page. Feb 19 23:47:37 I thought I went to the wiki page ;) that's why it scared me. Feb 19 23:47:40 Eleaf: asking questions here that are answered in the wiki will only get people irritated at you. Feb 19 23:47:59 well I didn't know there was a wiki page. Feb 19 23:48:09 Because when I tried to go to it, it just looked like a squeeze page. Feb 19 23:48:26 it's more fun talking to people Feb 19 23:48:26 must be lists.openmoko.org then :P Feb 19 23:48:36 yea Feb 19 23:48:49 err, maybe not Feb 19 23:49:02 Eleaf: so you think everyone of the thousands of new people finding out about openmoko should come here and ask the same FAQ questions every time? Feb 19 23:49:13 :P Feb 19 23:49:28 Eleaf: start there >> wiki.openmoko.org Feb 19 23:49:38 LuitvD, I have been Feb 19 23:49:47 rwhitby, maybe Feb 19 23:50:53 Eleaf: I guess that if everybody who wanted to know something about the project that has already been documented and still asks on the IRC channel, we won't have any time left to discuss some more serious things about this project Feb 19 23:51:12 then just link to the wiki page Feb 19 23:51:26 Eleaf: we do... look at the channel topic ;) Feb 19 23:51:48 It just says wiki, but not a link.. Feb 19 23:51:55 sigh Feb 19 23:52:00 Most people don't look at long topics anyways, but I'm not arguing anything here. Feb 19 23:52:19 lots of clients truncate long topics Feb 19 23:52:30 ...but this channel's topic is by far the shortest i've seen lately Feb 19 23:52:58 oh good, Harald just confirmed they have a full time developer working on qemu to get an emulator for the neo Feb 19 23:53:00 okay.. Feb 19 23:53:01 natetrue: yeah... Feb 19 23:53:12 openmoko: 03laforge * r1047 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410-nand.patch: add nand pagesize definition Feb 19 23:53:24 but there isn't a link to the wiki... doesn't matter. Feb 19 23:53:37 rwhitby: i heard jannu had it running already :) Feb 19 23:54:06 that's pretty darn cool though Feb 19 23:54:45 LuitvD: did you get the mokomakefile build to complete? Feb 19 23:54:56 not me... Feb 19 23:55:07 my desktop kernel was too unstable somehow :P Feb 19 23:55:16 * rwhitby hopes that anon cvs of projects.openmoko.org will start working soon, so he can publish the new mokomakefile which builds svn head Feb 19 23:55:18 right now I'm running a fresh Ubuntu installation Feb 19 23:55:40 rwhitby: but I guess jannu did complete the mokomakefile, for qemuarm ... Feb 19 23:56:16 rwhitby: he told me he'd upload it soon... the images... Feb 19 23:56:33 rwhitby: and I guess he'll announce it on one of the lists Feb 19 23:56:45 rwhitby: not sure which Feb 19 23:57:31 * LuitvD downloads the datasheets of the Wofson codec and the power amplifier :) Feb 19 23:57:58 * LuitvD hopes to find some time to write some audio-related software Feb 19 23:58:54 LaF0rge: any possibility of getting svn://svn.projects.openmoko.org to accept connections? and the viewcvs there to show the project repos? Feb 19 23:59:36 hmm, does anybody know the hardware diffrences between p0 and p1 devices? Feb 19 23:59:42 openmoko: 03mickey * r1048 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am src/mokodesktop.h): openmoko-mainmenu: make it build. See #184 and please ACT ASAP! Feb 20 00:00:02 night mickey|zzZZzz Feb 20 00:00:06 g'night Feb 20 00:00:28 LuitvD: I doubt there would be any differences, given the short time-frame between p0 and p1. Feb 20 00:00:32 aargh, still hate it that I can't apply for google SoC Feb 20 00:00:55 rwhitby: a month time is short? how many devices will be produced? :S Feb 20 00:01:51 a month time is very short to change a production line setup and test a new hardware revision and change the software to match Feb 20 00:02:04 openmoko: 03mickey * r1049 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-mainmenu_svn.bb: oe/openmoko-apps: openmoko-mainmenu depends on libmatchbox. See #184 Feb 20 00:02:35 mickey|zzZZzz: updating in your sleep? :P Feb 20 00:03:44 some people say prayers, some people commit their day's work ... Feb 20 00:03:52 lol Feb 20 00:04:07 I prefer the second one... Feb 20 00:04:27 * LuitvD hates prayers Feb 20 00:11:09 why on earth isn't the flash rom directly connected to IO_3v3? :S Feb 20 00:26:21 * LuitvD is gone for some sleep Feb 20 00:26:27 bye Feb 20 00:34:11 ok. i got openmoko qemuarm emulation going with mouse (more or less) and 480x640 video... r1004 Feb 20 00:39:50 thanks for r1049 Feb 20 00:40:55 * fluffs has a bottle of budvar Feb 20 01:03:37 ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/developers/jebba/openmoko/qemu-r1004 <-- qemu images Feb 20 01:04:15 goodnight all Feb 20 01:08:50 cool, jebba Feb 20 01:14:23 hi all Feb 20 01:15:16 I am just starting linux dev, how can I get the FIC Neo1973 Feb 20 01:15:36 fabs, see /topic Feb 20 01:16:12 jebba: ops, sorry Feb 20 01:16:25 can u direct me to the right place? Feb 20 01:16:41 openmoko.org, I think. ;) Feb 20 01:16:49 $350, late march. Feb 20 01:17:12 worldwide? Feb 20 01:17:16 jebba: is X supposed to start with your images? Feb 20 01:17:19 yes Feb 20 01:17:21 to anyone Feb 20 01:17:31 orospakr: thanks, been there and read the wiki ;) Feb 20 01:17:44 SpeedEvil: superb, thanks Feb 20 01:17:58 openmoko is the distro used isn't it? Feb 20 01:18:41 * orospakr isn't sure whether to buy the Developer model in March or April, or wait for the final release in September. Feb 20 01:18:56 I mean, is it based on some other existing stuff, say Debian or else? Feb 20 01:19:07 orospakr: I think the only difference will be software, not hardware Feb 20 01:19:25 pjz: I asked that question before, and someone thought the hardware would be different. Feb 20 01:19:35 but they may not have actually known anything... Feb 20 01:21:50 jaebird, what do you mean "with your images"? It's basically matchbox, with rxvt starting first. Feb 20 01:22:14 jebba: ok X started...I had to delete the .X0* file in the tmp dir...it is rotated 90 degrees Feb 20 01:22:32 ah, ya. It /is/ rotated. And so is my LCD next to me. Feb 20 01:22:40 :) Feb 20 01:22:42 see: /etc/X11/Xserver Feb 20 01:23:27 no mouse cursor...right? Feb 20 01:24:58 jebba: could you write a tutorial explaining how to emulate the neo1973 ? Feb 20 01:25:01 orospakr: I have the same problem :(... I figure I'll wait a couple weeks to see if there are any major problems and grab the Phase 1 version Feb 20 01:26:37 jaebird, jbnet ya, you can't see it, but it's there. I updated the README slightly. Feb 20 01:26:54 i'm more interested in getting a current image built, then will do more of a writeup. Feb 20 01:27:06 jebba: hm, I just tried out your qemu images, and same here, no X. Feb 20 01:27:12 you can see the cursor under rxvt, for example. Feb 20 01:27:16 jebba: thanks for making this Feb 20 01:27:21 yeah, thanks. :) Feb 20 01:27:36 orospakr: go delete the /tmp/.X0* file Feb 20 01:27:50 ah, lemme fix that then ;) Feb 20 01:27:59 jaebird: done. how do I restart X? Feb 20 01:28:23 I restarted my qemu since `reboot` did not work :) Feb 20 01:28:38 startx also did not work for me Feb 20 01:28:40 `sync` && x button in the corner ;) Feb 20 01:29:05 :) Feb 20 01:29:23 I wonder what kind of ARM box qemu is emulating. Feb 20 01:29:33 it's not like there's a standard or anything. Feb 20 01:30:22 well, X is running, and I have a sideways terminal. Feb 20 01:30:54 ooh, and there's the desktop. Feb 20 01:32:44 hi, quick question, is it possible using ARM ASM in openmoko Feb 20 01:32:57 I'd imagine so. Feb 20 01:33:03 do you mean regular gcc inline asm? Feb 20 01:33:43 orospakr: no, pure asm files Feb 20 01:33:54 maybe compiled using gas or something like that Feb 20 01:34:02 yeah, I'm sure you can. Feb 20 01:34:07 but that's all I know. Feb 20 01:34:29 orospakr: thanks anyway Feb 20 01:34:35 sorry. Feb 20 01:34:38 /etc/X11/Xserver == startx Feb 20 01:34:49 to kill X you ctrl-alt-del :) Feb 20 01:35:12 jebba: I gather you have to do some incantation at the qemu monitor to do ctrl-alt-del. ;) Feb 20 01:35:14 orospakr: it's fine - another thing, is gcc on the device or there is the need of cross compilation? Feb 20 01:35:29 I'd imagine the latter. Feb 20 01:35:32 toolchains are huge. Feb 20 01:36:08 orospakr, if qemu has focus, it grabs it. Just make sure you're in the window ;) Feb 20 01:36:20 right. :D Feb 20 01:36:34 orospakr: that's cool, thanks. Feb 20 01:37:23 note this image is from an older revision, not the current svn... Feb 20 01:44:54 jaebird, i put one up there that shouldn't have a lockfile in it already ;) Feb 20 01:45:06 ok...thanks Feb 20 01:46:49 jebba: no vi? Feb 20 01:47:34 jaebird, ya, it has vi. no vim tho Feb 20 01:47:52 weird version tho.. Feb 20 01:48:04 i think it's the busybox version Feb 20 01:48:36 looking for @270 Feb 20 01:49:53 in /etc/X11/Xserver under ARM section Feb 20 01:59:04 jebba: do you want to use the latest MokoMakefile to build the latest image? Feb 20 02:01:34 rwhitby, ha. i just started it manually, but if you have a Makefile I'll do it :) Feb 20 02:02:22 rwhitby, is it up anywhere? I checked earlier @ projects and i don't see it on your personal site. Feb 20 02:02:24 jebba: what's your projects.openmoko.org username? Feb 20 02:02:34 uh, jebba if I got one ;) Feb 20 02:02:43 * jebba checking Feb 20 02:02:47 (anon svn isn't working there yet, so I'll make you a mokomakefile dev) Feb 20 02:03:36 ok, gimme a minute to get an acct Feb 20 02:05:13 added you Feb 20 02:05:36 upload your ssh key, and checkout mokomakefile trunk with svn+ssh (it might take an hour for your ssh key to be recognised) Feb 20 02:10:29 ok, can you just mail it to me or something in the interim so i can get the build started? moe@blagblagblag.org Feb 20 02:13:50 what does projects.openmoko.org use CVS and not SVN like openmoko itself? Feb 20 02:13:53 my key is up there...awaiting cron.... /me goes to food Feb 20 02:13:54 why* Feb 20 02:14:10 it is using svn (perhaps both) Feb 20 02:23:00 loufoque: it can use both - I'm using svn Feb 20 02:23:29 jebba: the new Makefile gets the patches from there, so it's easier just to wait Feb 20 02:30:25 * rwhitby goes for food too Feb 20 02:40:18 good evening all. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 20 02:59:57 2007