**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 26 02:59:59 2007 Feb 26 03:06:33 openmoko: 03laforge * r1130 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (uboot-dfu.patch uboot-s3c2410_udc.patch): Feb 26 03:06:33 openmoko: * major re-write of EP0 handler and state machine of u-boot S3C2410 UDC driver, to Feb 26 03:06:33 openmoko: ** correctly cope with endpoint size of 16 bytes, which results in faster transfers Feb 26 03:06:33 openmoko: ** use lowercase hex digits in 'filesize' parameter of DFU-to-RAM upload Feb 26 03:06:33 openmoko: * enable 16bytes control pipe size Feb 26 03:06:36 openmoko: * make DFU correctly deal with 'set configuration' messages Feb 26 03:27:18 cool Feb 26 03:47:26 rwhitby: having a problem downloading gtkhtml2 cvs - apparently upstream switched to SVN, CVS is no longer current, and accessible only through ssh. Have you already run into this? Feb 26 03:59:53 abstrakraft: nope Feb 26 04:00:34 see if the cvs tarball is available in the openmoko src tarball stash Feb 26 04:07:07 rwhitby: where would that be? Feb 26 04:11:07 http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/ Feb 26 04:12:08 e.g. http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/gtkhtml2_anoncvs.gnome.org__20060717.tar.gz Feb 26 04:13:05 thanks - good to know Feb 26 04:13:23 on my todo list is getting OE to look there automatically. Feb 26 04:14:48 <[g2]> rwhitby do you run vmware at all ? Feb 26 04:14:51 <[g2]> vmplayer Feb 26 04:15:09 [g2]: I do *all* my linux development inside vmware Feb 26 04:16:19 <[g2]> has there been any thought about a vmware ubuntu/openmoko/oe setup ? Feb 26 04:16:44 <[g2]> basically, a full-on pre-rolled, just boot and upgrade kinda thing Feb 26 04:16:45 yes, robtaylor was talking about doing that. Feb 26 04:17:15 but if you want to beat him to it, that would be fine too :-) Have you got the nslu2/loft vmware image done yet? Feb 26 04:17:15 <[g2]> one of the guys did that for the OSD (neuros) Feb 26 04:17:34 <[g2]> except it's scratchbox Feb 26 04:18:07 * [g2] been toying with either the vmware thing or just a distro/ apt-repo Feb 26 04:19:45 [g2]: create a vmware image, which has openmoko-devel-image *already* *built* in it. That's the killer app which saves you 7 hours time. Feb 26 04:20:11 <[g2]> rwhitby yeah that's what I'm talking about Feb 26 04:20:24 (oh, and you need to keep that image up to date automatically, so that when you download it from your site, it always has the latest version already built) Feb 26 04:20:32 <[g2]> not only a 1-time build, but the update too Feb 26 04:21:03 [g2]: I'd say "Just Do It" :-) When will you have it ready? Feb 26 04:21:26 * [g2] is a vmware idiot Feb 26 04:21:50 <[g2]> my mac mini have the hw support for para-virt Feb 26 04:22:19 <[g2]> the other option is to get a process that supports native/binary virt Feb 26 04:22:30 <[g2]> then it'd just be a "normal" distro Feb 26 04:23:00 can't say I have any interest in vmware, but I'd be interested in maintaining/helping maintain a tarball to be included in the vmware image, as well as made available by itself Feb 26 04:23:08 <[g2]> since I don't have a phone, it's really a need to be ready by late March thing Feb 26 04:23:43 <[g2]> abstrakraft thx for the offer Feb 26 04:23:59 abstrakraft: someone should be able to continuously run mokomakefile inside a pristine vmware image, and then just snapshot it nightly. Feb 26 04:24:51 * rwhitby finally finished watching the video Feb 26 04:25:11 <[g2]> rwhitby we should just snapshot the working versions of the builds Feb 26 04:26:02 is there anything to prevent the vmware generated build from being tarballed and used in native Linux. I'm not aware of anything distro-specific inside the build dir, although I'm still learning the layout Feb 26 04:26:18 <[g2]> rwhitby actually, imho it should go further and boot the image on the phone Feb 26 04:27:58 * parag0ne is away: I'm away. leave a message if you really want to. Feb 26 04:28:19 g2: I agree - building HEADs is frustrating - snapshot the combinations that work Feb 26 04:28:31 s/combinations/revisions Feb 26 04:29:21 <[g2]> abstrakraft or actually, there should be API level for the upper layer application devs Feb 26 04:29:35 <[g2]> those may be updated say every 2 weeks or something Feb 26 04:29:43 <[g2]> or maybe once a month Feb 26 04:32:38 you'd only need to download the snapshot once, update from within after that - the app guys just wouldn't need to update as often Feb 26 04:34:46 why Ubuntu? user-friendly? Feb 26 04:35:43 robtaylor had decided on debian edge. Feb 26 04:36:21 it should just be whatever the core team has decided to standardise on, to minimise the risk of incompatibilities giving false errors and wasting time. Feb 26 04:36:32 buz had right idea, maybe he was joking though: way to use 2 sims at same time: Feb 26 04:37:10 fair enough - is that Debian Edge? Feb 26 04:37:33 just buy 2 Neo1973, put separate SIMs inside them, then keep one of them in pocket and use only one of them for actually calling/answering: use bluetooth to network them together Feb 26 04:38:03 when you talk either it works directly on phone in your hand as usual or Feb 26 04:38:41 ping Kero, what's up? Feb 26 04:38:42 when you have call for SIM that is in side phone that is in pocket, then use bluetooth to transmit voice to/from it from/to Neo1973 in your hand Feb 26 04:39:17 this also gives possibility to have net (GRPS) and voice (GSM) at same time Feb 26 04:39:35 aloril: *and* it sells more neo's too :-) Feb 26 04:39:52 aloril: better yet - use the Neo1973 to emulate a bluetooth headset, and it works with any bluetooth capable phone Feb 26 04:39:54 also this way you could get wifi too without dangling wires! Feb 26 04:40:24 well.. dangling wires, but inside pocket inside some extra size case Feb 26 04:43:17 abstrakraft: yeah, but then you might need to use that other phone to do actual dialing, with 2 Neo's you can use just one phone and forget existence of the other (except for charging) Feb 26 04:44:06 good point.....there aren't any devices out there for remote dialing? Feb 26 04:44:43 just select SIM when dialing from one device Feb 26 04:45:20 (or have 3 Neo's and 3 SIM's ;-) Feb 26 04:45:28 I get what you're saying, I'm still trying to work the kink in the headset emulation version of the idea Feb 26 04:45:34 anyway, this is linux, so more than 1 device is natural for it Feb 26 04:47:46 I wonder if there's any advantage to multiple Neo-coordinated sims on either side - redundance, higher bandwidth, better voide quality, etc. Feb 26 04:47:59 s/voide/voice Feb 26 04:48:49 seems more a novelty than a practical application, but an interesting one Feb 26 04:50:01 1) simultaneus net+voice 2) 2 SIMs active at same time 3) wifi without dangling bits from device in you hand Feb 26 04:50:29 (1 and 3 can be gotten with better device though) Feb 26 04:51:48 rwhitby: in reference to my earlier comment, except for differences in native compiler versions, are there any distro or native environment-specific bits left in the build directory? Feb 26 04:52:03 abstrakraft: dunno Feb 26 05:23:49 * aevin just watched the 1 hour recording from the OpenMoko presentation at FOSDEM Feb 26 05:24:05 thanks for sharing it, SpeedEvil and rwhitby :) Feb 26 05:24:52 aevin: Hi! URL? Feb 26 05:25:40 http://hentges.net/tmp/FOSDEM/ Feb 26 05:26:21 rwhitby: Thanks! Are both the same video, just different size? Feb 26 05:26:26 yep Feb 26 05:28:36 if you choose the largest one you're able to read most of the text (not all), i don't think you'll be able to do that with the 66 MB version Feb 26 05:29:19 * aevin rolls backwards into bed. *zZz* Feb 26 05:33:07 rwhitby, thanks for video :) Feb 26 05:35:14 rwhitby: Do I have to manually sync something with the makefile? Feb 26 05:35:23 I get this error: http://pastebin.ca/372645 Feb 26 05:35:44 That's when running "make update-makefile ; make setup" Feb 26 05:36:42 type make update then make setup Feb 26 05:36:50 (cause you need to update the openmoko svn repo too) Feb 26 05:37:00 Thanks :) Feb 26 05:54:57 openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1131 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/src/ (main.c mainmenu.c mokodesktop.h): matchbox vfolder patch change: /usr/share/matchbox Feb 26 06:10:20 openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1132 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/beep/ (Makefile.am bmp.desktop.in): This commit change the app name from "openmoko-media-player" to "openmoko-simple-media-player" and adjust the desktop file to this change. Feb 26 06:11:41 * CM wonders if there's any chinese devs on this channel Feb 26 06:50:57 openmoko: 03werner * r1133 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch: Feb 26 06:50:57 openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/bootmenu.c (bootmenu): return and power-off if "Boot" Feb 26 06:50:57 openmoko: command fails Feb 26 06:50:57 openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/neo1973.c: removed setting of "nobootdelay" Feb 26 06:50:57 openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_late_init): enter the boot menu when Feb 26 06:50:58 openmoko: "AUX" was pressed at least half the time Feb 26 06:51:01 openmoko: u-boot/board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_late_init): minor code cleanup Feb 26 07:10:27 hi! what's the scripting language of choice on the openmoko platform? eg. what's the language to use if you don't want to code C? Feb 26 07:25:14 Hadaka: current image doesn't seem to have either Python or Perl, but you can install any of course Feb 26 07:44:10 are there bindings? Feb 26 07:44:22 does anyone know why bitbake openmoko-deve-image havent builded any image, just ipk files?? Feb 26 07:45:00 did you look in build/tmp/deploy/images? Feb 26 07:46:02 tmp/deploy have just ipk Feb 26 07:46:46 it have no foldef images... Feb 26 07:47:09 it had when i have builded with uboot, but there was just u-boot images Feb 26 07:47:17 mokomakefile builds a kernel, modules.tar.gz and rootfs.jffs2,ext2.gz,tar,gz ... Feb 26 07:47:34 i am missing the rootfs.* Feb 26 07:47:43 (and it just runs bitbake openmoko-devel-image ...) Feb 26 07:48:13 pastebin your log.do_rootfs if you want us to debug further Feb 26 07:49:00 where is one? Feb 26 07:49:15 have you run "find" to find it? Feb 26 07:49:36 find ./ -iname '*rootfs*' Feb 26 07:49:58 in folder containing org.openembedded.dev Feb 26 07:50:01 and tmp/ Feb 26 07:50:08 and openmoko svn shure Feb 26 07:50:26 but wait a sec..found problem with fin Feb 26 07:50:27 d Feb 26 07:51:08 mine is in build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0/temp/log.do_rootfs.8032 Feb 26 07:51:08 ... Feb 26 07:51:21 yours will differ (which is why I suggested you use find) Feb 26 07:51:48 scanning whole OE tree for rootfs string Feb 26 07:52:30 and this is third time i builded that tree..no time it had rootfs Feb 26 07:53:19 do_rootfs missing Feb 26 07:53:21 why?? Feb 26 07:53:54 i have an idea Feb 26 07:54:34 gpe-image have at the end inherit image, openmoko-image have inherit image_ipk...can that be a problem? Feb 26 07:59:36 Are you using MokoMakefile to build? Feb 26 07:59:49 no.. Feb 26 07:59:58 but i have looked througth mokomakefile Feb 26 08:00:07 and there is nothing special in it Feb 26 08:00:12 then I have no idea how your OE/openmoko/bitbake environment is set up Feb 26 08:00:18 i mostly did made the changes by myself Feb 26 08:00:31 the special bit is that it sets up one's environment in a known state, which means that others can replicate results easily. Feb 26 08:00:40 I can't replicate your results, so I can't help you. Feb 26 08:01:01 i know..probably will try to use that Feb 26 08:01:43 that's the main reason why I suggest people use it. There's nothing magic about it otherwise. Feb 26 08:06:26 have my problem Feb 26 08:06:36 and mokofile woudnt solve that Feb 26 08:06:52 i want to compile it for my machine Feb 26 08:07:27 so i used machine=x86 Feb 26 08:07:50 but some packages were made in work/x86-linux and some in work/i486-linux Feb 26 08:09:33 For me the mokomakefile fails on updating the kernel from svn :/ Feb 26 08:09:52 CM: yeah, we can't control upstream Feb 26 08:10:13 I know, I'll wait until it works. Feb 26 08:10:13 ok problem..the rootfs have hardly anything in it :-( Feb 26 08:10:24 Never seen "svn: REPORT request failed on '/!svn/vcc/default'" before though Feb 26 08:10:41 <_muk_> what's up with mokomakefile and gnome CVS? anoncvs.gnome.org does not exist anymore. Feb 26 08:11:02 <_muk_> have anyone changed it to use SVN or should I give it a try? Feb 26 08:11:10 _muk_: According to the mailinglist, changing SRC_IRI to svn://svn.gnome.org/svn/;module=gtkhtml2 solved that Feb 26 08:11:26 For gtkhtml2 that is Feb 26 08:11:33 <_muk_> ok, has it been committed in svn? Feb 26 08:11:50 <_muk_> seems to be a bunch of modules that use anoncvs.gnome.org Feb 26 08:12:15 * CM looks at rwhitby Feb 26 08:12:49 <_muk_> AFAICT there are 8 packages Feb 26 08:14:32 CM: just testing the tarball stash fix now ... Feb 26 08:16:14 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r18 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (series tarball-stash.patch): Added downloads.openmoko.org/sources as CVS_TARBALL_STASH for openmoko Feb 26 08:16:19 ok, there it is. Feb 26 08:17:14 <_muk_> Gah, the weather just sucks... 1 degree C and it is snowing :-( Feb 26 08:17:26 as usual, "make update" to get and apply the new patchset. Feb 26 08:17:39 <_muk_> rwhitby: updating now Feb 26 08:18:59 rwhitby: Thanks for all your relentless work :) Feb 26 08:19:30 rwhitby: http://www.ms.mff.cuni.cz/~kupem6am/log.do_rootfs.6148 Feb 26 08:20:07 it does go througth all control.tar.gz, but actually does unpack nearly no files Feb 26 08:20:39 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214 Feb 26 08:23:46 rwhitby: do you have any hint why it is so? Feb 26 08:23:58 Magon: nope Feb 26 08:26:39 rwhitby: does build for x86 using mokomakefile work? Feb 26 08:27:54 Magon: the line in your pastebin which has "+ '[' '!' -z ' ipkg ipkg-collateral' ']'" in it, has lots of task-openmoko-* entries in it in a normal build. Feb 26 08:29:20 so the problem is that when building for x86, IPKG_INSTALL is not being set properly. Feb 26 08:29:34 your guess is as good as mine as to why that is happening. Feb 26 08:30:00 ok..i have no experiences with OE..i used scratchbox before Feb 26 08:37:03 you might want to wait until the OE core team guys get back from FOSDEM then ... Feb 26 08:37:45 probably Feb 26 08:37:54 i am digging in it Feb 26 08:38:03 and have been whole weekend Feb 26 08:38:24 main problem is inherit image_ipk Feb 26 08:38:41 it doesnt build rootfs at all with that..i had to change it to image Feb 26 08:39:16 can you pls look at your openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/images/openmoko-image.bb Feb 26 08:39:24 there is at the end inherit..what you have? Feb 26 08:40:47 image_ipk Feb 26 08:41:03 ok..so i am missing something ales somewhere else Feb 26 08:41:23 i had to change it to image in order to get at least start do_rootfs Feb 26 08:42:32 I suspect it's simply not designed to build on x86, and something needs to be changed somewhere, rather than something being wrong in your usage or build environment. Feb 26 08:42:56 proble is that even for fic-gta01 machine it doesnt build Feb 26 08:43:49 ah, well MokoMakefile definitely builds for fic-gta01 and qemuarm machines. Feb 26 08:44:22 ok..going to make diff Feb 26 08:44:38 i have main diff...i am at head :-) Feb 26 08:44:47 meanwhile, I'll kick off an x86 build Feb 26 08:45:18 head of openmoko or head of openembedded? Feb 26 08:45:20 since i doesnt have phone..building for x86 is good idea Feb 26 08:45:24 both Feb 26 08:45:36 (MokoMakefile builds openmoko head, but uses frozen openembedded on advice from mickey|fosdem07) Feb 26 08:46:04 (since that is what the core team uses) Feb 26 08:46:49 ok Feb 26 09:01:31 rwhitby: well, its even stevens on edge or feisty/edgy. it doesnt really matter, tbh Feb 26 09:05:14 * Magon waiting for koen, he usually know Feb 26 09:11:07 building OE with Mokofile Feb 26 09:26:58 robtaylor: nod - I'm easy either way. Feb 26 09:34:35 * buz curses e28 Feb 26 09:36:27 * Magon curses OE Feb 26 09:36:29 :-) Feb 26 09:37:11 heh - it won't be the last time ... Feb 26 09:37:43 what kind of company wont respond to people wanting to buy stuff from them Feb 26 09:38:42 especially when they say they want to develop stuff for the phones thus furthering their platform Feb 26 09:42:36 buz: what about sending initial image of encrypted volume, then keep image of that locally, then update another image, send some kind of binary diff encrypted Feb 26 09:42:57 i thought about that Feb 26 09:42:59 and at some point do rsync of whole encrypted volume Feb 26 09:43:04 but it seems easier to simply rsync it Feb 26 09:43:07 (to reduce amount of diffs) Feb 26 09:43:15 if you gonna deal with images at all Feb 26 09:43:34 yeah, rsync is easier of course, but diff is probably much faster if you want to do it daily Feb 26 09:43:38 but i think i'll just send whole file based diffs Feb 26 09:43:41 i doubt it Feb 26 09:43:52 rsync is highly efficient at what it does Feb 26 09:44:16 and diff was never really fast in my view Feb 26 09:44:33 well.. if you do diff you only do actual differences, but with image you have 1024 byte blocks or something like that instead of few bytes in worst case Feb 26 09:44:56 well most time will be spent reading the whole image figuring out what actually changed Feb 26 09:45:00 a journal would help Feb 26 09:45:12 but there is not really any sane journalling fs that can do that for linux Feb 26 09:45:22 * aloril wonders if you could do locally rsync of unencrypted filesyste, but instead of updating dump diff to file -> encrypt Feb 26 09:45:38 duplicity essentially does something like that Feb 26 09:45:43 but it doesnt really work reliably Feb 26 09:45:53 btw...when i manage to get enviroment, what is good idea to start hacking? Feb 26 09:45:53 didn't find in rsync any option to dump needed changes though Feb 26 09:45:59 bugfixing? Feb 26 09:46:02 librsync can do that Feb 26 09:46:14 i think there's a batch mode in rsync, too Feb 26 09:46:35 that should be faster than doing rsync of whole encrypted volume Feb 26 09:46:37 mhh thinking of it maybe that batchmode is actually quite useful Feb 26 09:47:12 maybe use batchmode for daily changes and rsync of whole volume once / month Feb 26 09:47:24 still means you need two entire trees on the client Feb 26 09:47:46 if you have that, it's quite trivial Feb 26 09:47:50 well.. microSD size is quite small compared to hard disk sizes ;-) Feb 26 09:48:50 yeah but i want to use the same thing on my desktop ;) Feb 26 09:50:20 ah, hehe Feb 26 09:50:34 well.. consider another copy as backup Feb 26 09:50:45 usually i would Feb 26 09:50:52 but on a laptop its kinda pointless if its on the same drive Feb 26 09:51:03 run it twice: 1) to generate rsync diff which you encrypt end send Feb 26 09:51:19 ummm.. only once actually, just use this diff to update backup Feb 26 09:51:27 i was about to say ;) Feb 26 09:51:34 you can even run it and let it apply the diff at the same time Feb 26 09:52:01 or maybe i should dig into duplicity code and fix it Feb 26 09:54:45 Unlike most diff programs, librsync does not require access to both of the files when the diff is computed. Computing a delta requires just a short "signature" of the old file and the complete contents of the new file. The signature contains checksums for blocks of the old file. Using these checksums, rdiff finds matching blocks in the new file, and then computes the delta. Feb 26 09:54:52 i think that is how duplicity actually works Feb 26 09:55:04 and by any means the most efficient way to do it Feb 26 11:01:35 http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-3742589179435830945&q=Openmoko <- add some tags if there are missing ones Feb 26 11:01:57 has someone here a directors account for youtube ? Feb 26 11:12:37 interesting if same person: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003751.html http://www.fic.com.tw/about.htm Feb 26 11:21:16 why wouldnt it be ? Feb 26 11:21:35 aloril: interesting indeed **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 26 11:27:21 2007 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 26 11:31:17 2007 Feb 26 11:37:56 Aha - someone saw the FOSdem talk video complete on google. I went to bed while it was still processing. :) Feb 26 11:38:07 hmm compile failed on makekeys.c Feb 26 11:38:17 I'm missing libs ;) Feb 26 11:41:19 emerge -uD world ! Feb 26 11:41:19 er, wait, wrong distro :P Feb 26 11:45:28 :P Feb 26 11:46:34 * rwhitby announces the presence of the fosdem video on the community list ... Feb 26 11:46:40 :) Feb 26 11:46:57 thx SpeedEvil for all your work in getting it there. Feb 26 11:47:16 I'm surprised with all the computing power of google, that it took so long to 'process'. Feb 26 11:47:56 When did it appear? Feb 26 11:48:13 My understanding is they have a small set of humans who review each contribution to make sure that goatse doesn't get in there ... Feb 26 11:48:13 * aloril OpenMoko should be in keynote at FOSDEM 2008 Feb 26 11:48:53 s/OpenMoko/thinks OpenMoko/ Feb 26 11:49:21 Aha - they missed the one I stuck in at frame #48532 then :) Feb 26 11:52:20 well, there's probably going to be plenty of applications on the openmoko that would benefit from some sort of scripting ability Feb 26 11:53:12 and it'd probably be helpful for performance to have just one or two interpreters there, instead of everybody using whatever... Feb 26 11:53:39 ah, but who decides which? Feb 26 11:53:48 * aloril agrees, scripting language being included by default would be nice Feb 26 11:53:52 rwhitby: hehe Feb 26 11:53:57 the first guy who releases something awesome, I bet Feb 26 11:53:59 :) Feb 26 11:54:35 OE already has more scripting languages in it already, that already compile for the Neo, than you have space for on a 2GB microSD card ... Feb 26 11:54:54 it might be just that at the moment its low priority compared to getting basic functionality working Feb 26 11:55:02 * rwhitby could have probably omitted one of the "already"s from that sentence ... Feb 26 11:56:20 hmmh, I wonder which would be most suitable - I don't really care if it's Java or Haskell or C# or whatever Feb 26 11:56:21 rwhitby: yeah, but I think bindings for OpenMoko additions would be needed for default inclusion (again, definitely post P0 thing and also maybe post P1 thing) Feb 26 11:56:48 whats wrong with /bin/sh ? :) Feb 26 11:57:06 aloril: yes, the openmoko specific bindings will decide which language wins the natural selection ... Feb 26 11:57:23 madwoota: embedding /bin/sh and doing GUI's with it doesn't sound too reasonable Feb 26 11:57:25 (combined with choice of scripting language made by killer application authors) Feb 26 11:58:19 I wonder if python is a decent option hardware wise - it's a bit big I guess, but is it going to be slow, too? Feb 26 11:58:46 you dismiss a 20k shell in favour or a 10meg language ? Feb 26 11:58:58 madwoota: did you read my argument? Feb 26 11:59:00 I vote for elisp ;-) Feb 26 11:59:15 rwhitby: librep wouldn't be too bad size wise Feb 26 11:59:45 obviously sarcasm doesnt convey very well here Feb 26 11:59:53 perhaps :) Feb 26 12:00:19 * buz votes for brainfuck Feb 26 12:00:24 * rwhitby goes to bed - night all Feb 26 12:00:28 night Feb 26 12:00:46 nitey Feb 26 12:01:49 how is the dialing/call control stuff controlled? which daemon handles that and does it have a dbus api? Feb 26 12:02:09 gpsd Feb 26 12:02:12 eerr Feb 26 12:02:14 gsmd Feb 26 12:02:25 hmm looks like it tries to compile using x64 headers Feb 26 12:03:02 is the dialer gui in gsmd (I hope not)? how does the dialer gui communicate to gsmd? Feb 26 12:04:27 Hadaka - Use libgsmd to talk to gsmd. Feb 26 12:04:59 Elrond: ah, okay Feb 26 12:05:41 stripped down python is not that big Feb 26 12:05:48 How big? Feb 26 12:12:35 * aloril remembers seeing few hundred kilobytes, but doesn't now find url Feb 26 12:16:08 hmmh, I guess it would be python then Feb 26 12:17:12 counter Feb 26 12:17:12 P0: a week, 2 days 23:08:18 (0.964 - 9.964 days); P1: 23.964 - 33.964; P2: 186.964 - 216.964 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (406) Feb 26 12:17:57 mokomakefile on x64=eeeek Feb 26 12:17:59 :) Feb 26 12:19:31 hmm.. more like 1MB, for useful maybe even 2MB: http://mirror.hentges.net/www.openzaurus.org/3.5.4.1/feed/python/ Feb 26 12:19:45 uups, those are compressed numbers too Feb 26 12:21:57 python-pygtk2_2.6.2 786K libpython2.4-1.0_2.4 452K python-core_2.4.4 94K python-dbus_0.23 70K Feb 26 12:22:12 or something like that Feb 26 12:36:11 omg, a response from e28 :D Feb 26 12:36:30 oh no wait.. Feb 26 12:36:53 damn :( Feb 26 12:41:09 openmoko: 03laforge * r1134 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-arm920t_cp15_cmd.patch: sync cmd_arm920 with upstream uboot changes in makefile Feb 26 12:42:23 openmoko: 03laforge * r1135 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: bump moko version Feb 26 12:49:54 what program created this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/2/28/Openmokoframework.png ? Feb 26 12:49:59 it's cool. Feb 26 12:50:10 lol Feb 26 12:50:29 i wanna the graph maker program:) Feb 26 12:50:47 it's a flowchart, not a graph Feb 26 12:50:54 thank you Feb 26 12:51:19 so , what program created that flowchart? Feb 26 12:51:32 I don't know Feb 26 12:51:52 MetaMorfoziS: via, omni-graffle or dia Feb 26 12:52:24 koen|train: irc on the train? Feb 26 12:52:30 koen|train: via GPRS? :P Feb 26 12:52:40 LuitvD: via EDGE Feb 26 12:52:47 ah :) Feb 26 12:52:56 thank you Feb 26 12:53:00 * koen|train is now somewhere between rotterdam and utrecht Feb 26 12:53:15 where are you headed? Feb 26 12:53:20 home Feb 26 12:53:26 where is home? Feb 26 12:53:38 near koen's monitor:) Feb 26 12:54:45 heh Feb 26 13:17:14 wow, huge netsplit Feb 26 13:17:54 lol Feb 26 13:17:58 konversation lists 38s lag Feb 26 13:17:59 did everyone get that? Feb 26 13:18:17 sterling just split up, and I'm on sterling... Feb 26 13:18:19 LuitvD: got my mail? Feb 26 13:18:24 i get you Feb 26 13:18:34 buz: yeah, I thought it was mail from the chinese people :P Feb 26 13:18:39 LOL Feb 26 13:18:43 XD Feb 26 13:18:52 i sent the hk office the same mail i sent shanghai last week Feb 26 13:19:06 ah, okay Feb 26 13:19:08 but probably got them right at end of the day Feb 26 13:19:51 is the fosdem talk worth watching (i.e. anything new?) Feb 26 13:19:56 it's 22:00 there now Feb 26 13:20:10 sent it 17:30HK time Feb 26 13:20:31 then again, hk never sleeps Feb 26 13:20:32 lol Feb 26 13:21:02 what, you found the video of the moko talk at fosdem? Feb 26 13:21:04 buz: 01:40 < SpeedEvil> However, there was little that someone that had read most of the wiki and mailing list diddn't know. Feb 26 13:21:07 01:40 < SpeedEvil> But it brings some of it into clearer focus. Feb 26 13:21:20 ok not worth the time then Feb 26 13:21:57 LuitvD: it's on google video Feb 26 13:22:03 okay :) Feb 26 13:22:12 interesting videa Feb 26 13:22:14 vid Feb 26 13:22:18 nearly finished in it. Feb 26 13:22:19 buz: I found it interesting anyway. Some more details and business model. Feb 26 13:22:54 buz: There is some new info such as talk of another hardware release Feb 26 13:23:06 it was eitehr between June and P2 or March and June Feb 26 13:23:18 I think the latter. You'd need to watch the vid and check. Feb 26 13:23:44 mpf Feb 26 13:23:55 goolge video thottles to 2mbit Feb 26 13:23:58 or my isp does Feb 26 13:24:39 lol Feb 26 13:24:47 mine stalled... Feb 26 13:24:55 but that's because my cache is full :) Feb 26 13:25:05 mhh now its picking up Feb 26 13:25:34 konqueror and flv somehow dont mix well Feb 26 13:25:36 keeps stuttering Feb 26 13:26:13 :P Feb 26 13:26:29 got 0 traffic :) Feb 26 13:26:31 P1+ at June? Feb 26 13:26:43 aloril: yeah... something like that Feb 26 13:26:45 so what itmes are the interesting bits Feb 26 13:27:20 Simon Phipps and ESR endorsing Sun at Fosdem :) http://picasaweb.google.com/stephanemw/Fosdem2007/photo#5035835563754946434 Feb 26 13:27:23 hey ljp Feb 26 13:27:28 I missed you at fosdem :( Feb 26 13:27:50 i thought esr was primarily bashing fedora this week Feb 26 13:28:56 loft306:20 Feb 26 13:28:59 loft306:20 Feb 26 13:29:01 gah Feb 26 13:29:03 30:20 Feb 26 13:29:16 mickey|fosdem07: when you get back :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:CF2_IMG_0041.jpg Feb 26 13:29:21 so my download is finished, but where exactly did i save it Feb 26 13:29:23 is the 'something else everyone is asking for' in respect of phase 2 Feb 26 13:29:49 Presumably either wifi or camera. Feb 26 13:30:47 I've updated the wiki - [[neo1973[[ Feb 26 13:30:47 I've updated the wiki - [[neo1973]] Feb 26 13:30:47 times, according to the limited info in the speech. Feb 26 13:30:49 Stephmw: lol, that's a bright screen :) Feb 26 13:31:11 LuitvD: it's not a great photo of the screen unfortunately Feb 26 13:31:23 LuitvD: it was very dark in there Feb 26 13:31:32 No, the screen doesn't have much vital info on it though - most is in the wiki. Feb 26 13:31:36 LuitvD: so to get mickey to show up at all I had to blow the highlight Feb 26 13:31:52 :) Feb 26 13:31:56 oops Feb 26 13:33:04 wish I knew which way around it was Feb 26 13:33:07 but oh well Feb 26 13:33:23 loool, doctor mickey :) Feb 26 13:34:57 SpeedEvil: you mean that "something else everyone has been asking for" is for P2, not v2? Feb 26 13:35:13 It will be introduced in P2 Feb 26 13:35:38 Presumably it'll be available for P1 - which continues through P2, it's not a one-off buy. Feb 26 13:35:57 for late P1 Feb 26 13:36:01 btw, thanks for doing the video SpeedEvil Feb 26 13:36:12 is he making fun of us Feb 26 13:36:20 or are they really shipping the ultimate one in june Feb 26 13:36:21 I played little part - and now wish I could re-do it. Feb 26 13:36:35 That wasn't explicitly stated. Feb 26 13:36:51 that kind of enviromment is impossible to film well without setting up the lighting in advance Feb 26 13:37:02 I suspect it will be nearer september than june that the first ones (P1.5) will turn up. Feb 26 13:37:03 are the slides online somewhere Feb 26 13:37:15 well yes Feb 26 13:37:18 But not putting out hardware to devs, before going mass market would be insane. Feb 26 13:37:19 but still in 2007 Feb 26 13:37:29 What frustrated me was "We debated long and hard about whether to include this slide" Feb 26 13:37:34 and then we couldn't actually see it Feb 26 13:37:37 tease Feb 26 13:37:48 Was that the buisness model slide? Feb 26 13:38:00 buz: I now know what distro it uses... but only the name... can't find any other info... Feb 26 13:38:08 buz: SmarCore Feb 26 13:38:16 is that really a distro Feb 26 13:38:22 or more of a marketing gimmick from e28 Feb 26 13:38:40 i know it lists it on a screenshot somewhere Feb 26 13:38:54 aloril might want to update his wifi? trigger Feb 26 13:39:32 ok i now need a cheap phone that will work til september ;) Feb 26 13:39:40 buz: it's really the name of the software I guess... it appears in some chinese sheet with a list of software on various smartphones Feb 26 13:39:54 buz: why september? Feb 26 13:39:54 maybe its the stack above linux Feb 26 13:40:03 because i sure dont believe june Feb 26 13:40:07 :P Feb 26 13:40:13 hmm.. so does "something else everyone has been asking for" refer to P1+ device introduced between June and September? Feb 26 13:40:32 imho, that would be the wifi device Feb 26 13:40:34 unfortunately my understanding of spoken English is not good :-( Feb 26 13:40:56 anything else worthy of watchin in that vide Feb 26 13:41:14 IMO, yes. Feb 26 13:41:21 It's interesting, he's not a boring speaker. Feb 26 13:41:21 essentially that would be neov2 then Feb 26 13:41:28 if they really replace the cpu, too Feb 26 13:41:32 I guess business case and reply to trolltech 'troll' ;-) Feb 26 13:41:53 Well, IMO, around the same number of newbies ask about camera and wifi. Feb 26 13:42:07 camera would probably be simpler Feb 26 13:42:08 CPU replacement is quite major - possibly. Feb 26 13:42:10 umm.. did it say replacing CPU? that sounds like v2 to me Feb 26 13:42:21 did say more processing power Feb 26 13:42:26 possibly new gsm module too (i think Feb 26 13:42:29 must watch it again Feb 26 13:42:33 It could be minor - another version of the chip, with absolutely compatible pinout. Feb 26 13:42:44 It could simply be different flash on the existing GSM module. Feb 26 13:42:54 or it could bump it to edge Feb 26 13:43:06 which would be sensible Feb 26 13:43:22 if they want to please the geeks (and they should) they add wifi, then camera Feb 26 13:43:31 wifi? Feb 26 13:43:32 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Feb 26 13:43:37 :P Feb 26 13:43:39 maybe I just update link? Feb 26 13:43:41 but from an engineering point of view camera is probably easier Feb 26 13:43:51 I dunno. Feb 26 13:44:00 nmuch less rf trouble Feb 26 13:44:08 If you can find a wifi+ bluetooth module in the same space as the bluetooth module it might work easily. Feb 26 13:44:37 And you really want to integrate those two anyway, as they can do stuff by knowing when the other side is going to transmit. Feb 26 13:44:50 LuitvD: i think smarcore is some e28 stuff Feb 26 13:45:15 EDGE however, is not a firmware upgrade possible. Feb 26 13:45:15 yeah Feb 26 13:45:21 hmm.. I should probably make autotrigger for '?' repeated 3 times during 15 minutes for newbies (->faq?) (needs research to see what should work, wifi? has worked reasonably well so far) Feb 26 13:45:26 buz: i'm afraid it's quite closed... Feb 26 13:46:08 SpeedEvil: most of the embedded wifi chips have BT-WLAN coexistence feature in their firmware. Feb 26 13:46:23 i think there is even bt-wifi-gsm combo chips now Feb 26 13:46:24 aloril: yeah, that script did well lately :) Feb 26 13:46:33 Yeah - ATM they're using a canned module connected over USB AIUI though. Feb 26 13:46:49 Rather than a 'home rolled' solution. Feb 26 13:47:12 http://eetimes.eu/197007586;jsessionid=SMFDY4UXZWHDEQSNDLSCKHA they are already using CSR for BT no? Feb 26 13:47:39 uuh that url is f***** Feb 26 13:48:20 aaaaargh, I like these pics: http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/images/image/4_1.jpg Feb 26 13:48:21 :( Feb 26 13:48:23 :( :( Feb 26 13:48:38 wifi? Feb 26 13:48:38 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Feb 26 13:48:39 ;-) Feb 26 13:48:42 * LuitvD prays for e28 to hear our call Feb 26 13:48:50 (+ Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. ) Feb 26 13:49:32 mhh csr also makes gps now Feb 26 13:49:40 that would be ideal Feb 26 13:49:50 gps+wifi+bt all in one chip Feb 26 13:49:50 I suppose it's concievable that if P1 goes well enough - FIC may decide - Hey, this is interesting! Feb 26 13:49:58 buz: the e2881 would be ideal... :) Feb 26 13:50:10 And bump the development budget for hardware by an order of magnitude. Feb 26 13:50:14 actually, if fic gives me wifi in fall, the QVGA screen is too bad ;) Feb 26 13:50:19 To give it a more cutting edge phone. Feb 26 13:50:25 i agree Feb 26 13:50:34 buz: hmm... what about full sized SD card slot? Feb 26 13:50:36 but otoh, this cannibalizes sales of p1 phoines Feb 26 13:50:44 LuitvD: i dont htink its fullsized Feb 26 13:50:49 theres a microsd logo on the back Feb 26 13:51:03 buz: it is full sized AND microsd Feb 26 13:51:06 it has both Feb 26 13:51:11 i still doubt that Feb 26 13:51:14 theres simply no space Feb 26 13:51:16 look how thin it is Feb 26 13:51:31 look at the thing on the left side Feb 26 13:51:36 yeah Feb 26 13:51:47 e28 should bloody answer our mails Feb 26 13:51:55 looks like a rubber flap on the side Feb 26 13:52:00 which covers something Feb 26 13:52:02 dock connector? Feb 26 13:52:06 I'm not saying I don't care about wifi, but honestly - the camera would be more useful to me day-to-day Feb 26 13:52:08 usb maybe Feb 26 13:52:09 beïng a SD/MMC connector Feb 26 13:52:15 usb is on the other side Feb 26 13:52:32 so it's not a dock connector either Feb 26 13:52:36 I have unlimited data so there really is no great advantage for me personally Feb 26 13:52:44 i dont think omap730 can run two sd cards Feb 26 13:52:55 ok maybe in spi mode somehow Feb 26 13:52:55 buz: ofcourse it can... Feb 26 13:53:15 in any case, it's a weird design decision Feb 26 13:53:16 I don't think there is unlimited data available here - it's 3 quid a meg or so, or a quid a day. Feb 26 13:53:16 buz: SPI can add a new device with one new SS pin Feb 26 13:53:22 buz: why? Feb 26 13:53:30 because the device is so small Feb 26 13:53:40 why add TWO slots Feb 26 13:53:40 but still it all fits Feb 26 13:53:46 SPI mode it can run with no new pins. Feb 26 13:53:47 yeah, so some functionality is user/plan/geographically specific Feb 26 13:53:52 You can electrically parallel the pins. Feb 26 13:54:08 SpeedEvil: yes but in a 12.5mm thick touchscreen qwerty device, space for the slot itself becomes a problem Feb 26 13:54:08 And it can auto-discover the card IDs, and put one to sleep. Feb 26 13:54:11 SpeedEvil: that's I2C/SPI Feb 26 13:54:12 Damn slow though. Feb 26 13:54:28 For the SD card, in MMC compatibility mode. Feb 26 13:54:30 AFAIC Feb 26 13:54:40 c > k Feb 26 13:54:50 You need seperate chip selects for SDIO though. Feb 26 13:55:03 I think it doesn't have SDIO Feb 26 13:55:22 The hardware is the same. Feb 26 13:55:24 also please add sd slot to neo 1.5 Feb 26 13:55:32 "External memory: MicroSD/SD/MMC" Feb 26 13:55:32 for SD and SDIO Feb 26 13:55:37 it's just software. Feb 26 13:55:40 yeah Feb 26 13:55:44 if you dont add anything else, gimme sd slot Feb 26 13:55:48 lol Feb 26 13:55:55 somewhere where rf can go Feb 26 13:56:04 You could in principle bring the P1 microSD slot out to the back of the phone, and use a wifi card in it. Feb 26 13:56:05 not sandwiched between battery and screen Feb 26 13:56:10 buz: SDIO, so you can add a Wi-Fi SDIO device Feb 26 13:56:10 Of course, then you have no storage. Feb 26 13:56:28 LuitvD: sd slot is good enough Feb 26 13:56:30 sdio we can hack Feb 26 13:56:33 (somehow) Feb 26 13:56:42 hardware on SD and SDIO is the same Feb 26 13:56:44 SDIO you can only hack if there is a chip enable pin. Feb 26 13:56:56 SDIO and SD cards cannot be electrically paralleled. Feb 26 13:57:22 why cant i find combo chips on csr.com Feb 26 13:57:30 you don't even want an electrically paralelled SD card slot... Feb 26 13:57:38 No, as the speed sucks. Feb 26 13:58:14 500kb/s would be plenty for me Feb 26 13:58:25 But what would be so cool about a closed hardware E2881 ? Feb 26 13:58:34 denis^da: look at the specs Feb 26 13:58:53 denis^da: you think it's more closed then the Neo? Feb 26 13:59:06 I hope P1 on the neo goes well enough that FIC decide to invest lots of money in P2. Feb 26 13:59:14 And give us a nice phone. Feb 26 13:59:17 denis^da: I think the GSM/GPRS and the GPS are closed on that device too, and the rest is open Feb 26 13:59:39 how do you know that the other things are open ? Feb 26 13:59:42 SpeedEvil: for p2 to be a different phone, fic needs to invest money NOW Feb 26 13:59:52 denis^da: omap730 has linux stack from TI Feb 26 13:59:57 SpeedEvil: maybe even multiple case designs :) Feb 26 14:00:05 omg qwerty Feb 26 14:00:08 gimme qwerty Feb 26 14:00:10 lol Feb 26 14:00:19 and imx31 Feb 26 14:00:22 I mean the features are cool but it is marketing ;) VOIP etc are buzzwords nothing else Feb 26 14:00:26 imx31? Feb 26 14:00:27 I've already informed my father-out-law that he is making me a nice walnut case for me new phone ;-) Feb 26 14:00:29 buz: pretty much, though putting more people on it can help - especially ifg you've got similar hardware already. Feb 26 14:01:19 And a good design team already competant in the area. Feb 26 14:02:18 where do you have WLAN... at home ok there I don't need my mobile. And outside Wlan is expensive (except the open ones in cities but at the other parts... no wlan) -> useless atm Feb 26 14:02:23 FIC already has those people in place i'm sure Feb 26 14:02:29 http://www.freescale.com/imx31 Feb 26 14:02:40 are any cortex SOC shipping already? Feb 26 14:02:44 -> you can't use voip at all. Feb 26 14:02:45 I'm guessing its going to be a matter of fighting to have their resources dedicated to you as opposed to another FIC project. Feb 26 14:03:31 buz: Cortex-M3 has been available for some time, and i remember reading about Cortex-A just recently, too Feb 26 14:03:35 noidd: Treue - it's a matter of how much time you budget to each device. Feb 26 14:03:53 in hardware or just schematics? Feb 26 14:04:11 http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=755 looks interesting for add-ons. A 7mm trackball. Feb 26 14:04:11 and the camera hmm that's a toy. For real pictures and videos you have a real camera Feb 26 14:04:13 there is no doubt they have the skills already in shouse Feb 26 14:04:13 denis^da: I'll have free blasting-fast Wi-Fi at school next year :) (college) Feb 26 14:04:18 in-house Feb 26 14:04:27 wtf do you need a trackball on a touchscreen device Feb 26 14:04:34 noidd: yeah :) that thing is cool Feb 26 14:04:45 LuitvD, at school yeah but tha's something you don't have forever ;) Feb 26 14:04:46 i think blackberry pearl has trackball Feb 26 14:04:52 I was thinking of putting it on the back. Feb 26 14:04:55 LuitvD, I have Wlan at university as well Feb 26 14:05:06 denis^da: a phone isn't something I'll have forever either :) Feb 26 14:05:11 but at school, university I have a notebook ;) Feb 26 14:05:13 by the time neo has wifi, i'll likely be done with school Feb 26 14:05:20 unless i go for a phd Feb 26 14:05:24 :P Feb 26 14:06:15 Yeah but the thing is a mobile is for my mobile usage and not for static things (that would be at home, school wherever I can have a table) Feb 26 14:06:39 i dont like carrying alaptop to school very much Feb 26 14:06:42 even though mine is sub2kg Feb 26 14:06:45 Therefore I have a notebook which is much more powerful and doesn't run out of energy Feb 26 14:07:11 he says "we're gonna up processing power, move to a faster gsm system [..]" Feb 26 14:07:11 Consider wandering past a hotspot, and it automatically updating all your local cache of interesting web pages, or whatever. Feb 26 14:07:13 so that's edge and a new cpu Feb 26 14:07:13 yeah but you will never do the things on your mobile that you can do at a normal nb Feb 26 14:07:27 i would totally read slashdot Feb 26 14:07:31 Without you taking it out of your pocket. Feb 26 14:07:38 the limiting thing is the screen and the keyboard Feb 26 14:08:01 put one of those laser-projecting keyboards in it ;) Feb 26 14:08:14 SpeedEvil, but therefore I have to log in in the hotspot ;) Feb 26 14:08:21 Automatic. Feb 26 14:08:28 not really Feb 26 14:08:37 If have set it up for that spot. Feb 26 14:08:49 Or if you're using the 'any open wifi network' option. Feb 26 14:08:52 vmaster: those laser thingies are supposedly rather useless Feb 26 14:09:01 The fundamental problem is feel. Feb 26 14:09:08 my uni needs VPNC for networking Feb 26 14:09:15 I mean, try typing on a picture of a keyboard. Feb 26 14:09:15 but thats easily solved with linux Feb 26 14:09:29 open networks ;) how many do you count outside the cities ? Feb 26 14:09:41 I'm as fast as I am on a keyboard because I can feel the edges of the keys, and auto-correct as to where they are. Laser - nope. Feb 26 14:09:46 Actually. Feb 26 14:10:02 In my little village of 1000, about 4. Feb 26 14:10:15 And some of those are hittable from the road as driving along. Feb 26 14:10:30 yeah and they cover let me say 4% of the area you are going through Feb 26 14:10:40 thats good enough Feb 26 14:10:41 For asynchronus updates, they are ideal. Feb 26 14:10:50 Well, not ideal, but not totally useless. Feb 26 14:10:52 I have wlan in my pda but the usage is quite null Feb 26 14:11:02 whenever i get a wifi fix, get me mail, and all rss streams and their likns Feb 26 14:11:11 yeah. Feb 26 14:11:13 usage of my pda itself is null ;) Feb 26 14:11:28 buz, haha that is true but why :D Feb 26 14:11:41 because winmobile sucks soooo badly Feb 26 14:11:48 and the thing is old Feb 26 14:12:04 I see a lot of things you could do with Wlan but not much you actually can do atm :) Feb 26 14:12:18 + I Feb 26 14:12:39 It'd be a hell of a lot better if 802.11* had included a vlan, plus micropayment scheme. Feb 26 14:12:56 in my opinion wlan is not the future for mobile data exchange Feb 26 14:13:03 So you could pay for access, and people would be motivated to give you that access, and be able to bid for it. Feb 26 14:13:12 haha yeah :> Feb 26 14:13:22 wlan is part of it. Feb 26 14:13:36 I don't think there is a generic solution that works everywhere. Feb 26 14:13:46 In my opinion it must be some service that is available neraly everywhere like GPRS but much faster Feb 26 14:14:03 the BIG advantage of wlan is that everyone can do it, not just greedy telcos Feb 26 14:14:14 denis^da: thats called UMTS Feb 26 14:14:18 UMTS is getting better and better in germany Feb 26 14:14:21 yeah I know Feb 26 14:14:34 Wifi runs into problems in congested areas as you can hear far routers. Feb 26 14:14:35 its not so much the quality but the price about umts here Feb 26 14:14:41 60Ghz comms should help. Feb 26 14:14:47 HSDPA is getting denser here :) Feb 26 14:14:51 the price is not the problem I think Feb 26 14:14:58 The atmosphere absorbs it, so you can't hear far devices that you couldn't decode. Feb 26 14:14:59 it is getting cheaper and cheaper Feb 26 14:15:06 oh with 3E per mb it is for me Feb 26 14:15:13 yeah Feb 26 14:15:14 at the moment Feb 26 14:15:21 if i could flat umts for 20? Feb 26 14:15:27 that would change everything Feb 26 14:15:29 but in 5 years you get a flat ;) Feb 26 14:15:30 no need for wifi anymore Feb 26 14:15:37 that's it Feb 26 14:15:37 Err - no. Feb 26 14:15:42 they said that 5 years before Feb 26 14:15:53 There isn't the spectrum for everyone to go from wifi-3G or whatever. Feb 26 14:16:09 i dont care. i will up my rf power as much as it takes lol Feb 26 14:16:12 Even with advances like directional antennas in phones and mobile towers. Feb 26 14:18:18 hmm ok :> But then the best thing at the moment would be EDGE for me Feb 26 14:18:45 not for voip but the speed for normal data is ok Feb 26 14:26:19 i guess faster gsm means edge Feb 26 14:30:13 Hmm, I have an appointment with HR in 55 mins. Feb 26 14:30:20 expecting to be made redundant - wheeee Feb 26 14:30:41 :( Feb 26 14:30:52 Nah, I'll be happy to get out of here Feb 26 14:30:56 Good luck. Feb 26 14:31:00 been miserable in this job for a while Feb 26 14:31:03 Maybe they want to give you a raise. Feb 26 14:31:08 they already did Feb 26 14:31:28 I kid you not. I got 2 raises so far this year and a bonus in 2 weeks which is 10% of my salary Feb 26 14:31:35 yet they're still going to make me redundant Feb 26 14:31:58 My position in the company has basically disapeared so they need to find another dept to put me in. Feb 26 14:32:23 Gimmie 2 weeks pay and my bonus and i'll be out of there with a smile on my face Feb 26 14:33:28 CRAP Feb 26 14:33:40 why cant business adminsitration students cite correctly Feb 26 14:34:04 There, no need to post any more URLs. Feb 26 14:34:06 oops Feb 26 14:39:38 hi Feb 26 14:40:57 hmm.. it seems that 2 '?' during first 15 minutes might be reasonable heuristics for faq answer Feb 26 14:41:22 For new user? Feb 26 14:41:25 Or anyone? Feb 26 14:41:26 yes Feb 26 14:41:46 new user only, everybody else can trigger it with "faq?" already Feb 26 14:42:36 faq Feb 26 14:42:46 false positive is maybe less than 20% Feb 26 14:42:50 with question mark ;-) Feb 26 14:42:57 faq? Feb 26 14:42:57 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 26 14:43:05 faq? Feb 26 14:43:05 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 26 14:43:08 nice :D Feb 26 14:59:38 * parag0ne is away: I'm away. leave a message if you really want to. Feb 26 14:59:50 * parag0ne is back (gone 00:00:06) Feb 26 14:59:54 * LuitvD leaves "a message" Feb 26 15:07:30 faq? Feb 26 15:07:40 lol? Feb 26 15:07:56 Anyway. I've just tried to sort the FAQ page into some sort of order. Feb 26 15:08:25 I'm now going through it, to merge similar entries, and try to tidy up some of the verbosity if possible. Feb 26 15:09:45 (just testing), there is no wiFI? Feb 26 15:09:58 (just testing), there is no wiFI? Feb 26 15:09:58 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some later model at unknown time will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Feb 26 15:10:16 (testing) what about source? Feb 26 15:10:16 newbie_test6: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 26 15:10:16 SpeedEvil: are there any tricks to compile on x64? or is it a no go Feb 26 15:10:30 oh, nice?! Feb 26 15:11:11 well.. seems to work Feb 26 15:12:01 DesktopMa: I've been running the moko makefile on amd-64, seems to work just fine Feb 26 15:12:19 But I haven't tried to run it, just build it Feb 26 15:12:32 I mean the openmoko image Feb 26 15:12:51 rly Feb 26 15:12:58 when it compiles it uses x64 headers, is that fine? Feb 26 15:13:12 SpeedEvil: your "faq?" didn't work because I was testing at it at the moment ;-) Feb 26 15:13:13 I don't think it does Feb 26 15:13:25 SpeedEvil: should work now Feb 26 15:13:27 bitbake installs cross-compile things Feb 26 15:13:31 faq? Feb 26 15:13:31 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 26 15:13:34 :) Feb 26 15:14:12 hopefully autotrigger (? twice during 15 minutes for new nick) works reasonably well (ie.. most of time relevant trigger) Feb 26 15:24:40 Ok - it should be in a more readable state now I hope. Feb 26 15:25:09 I've reorganised, and polished the [[FAQ#Introduction]] a little. Feb 26 15:25:20 Still to do software, hardware, and misc. Feb 26 15:25:42 hmm.. testing on log file most of time it would seem to trigger at OK, but there were some useless and even funny replies Feb 26 15:31:50 so how come sean can talk about neo 1.5 but not give specs Feb 26 15:32:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Summer_of_code Feb 26 15:33:15 I wrote a mail to openmoko-devel about it. Should appear in the next minutes. Feb 26 15:34:45 :) Feb 26 15:34:56 too bad I can't attend Feb 26 15:35:12 stefan_schmidt: did you talk to Leslie at fosdem? Feb 26 15:35:51 koen: Don't think so. Who is it? Feb 26 15:36:04 stefan_schmidt: on that page you stated one of the Ideas as "optimizing for 48MB ram" ... for how much RAM is it optimized now? Feb 26 15:36:37 LuitvD: It is used on 128MB. Not that much optimizing yet Feb 26 15:37:03 stefan_schmidt: so It's not sure It'll work on 64MB? Feb 26 15:37:34 aargh, want to work on that QVGA stuff :( Feb 26 15:37:35 LuitvD: IIRC it already was used on 64MB devices Feb 26 15:37:43 oh, okay Feb 26 15:38:08 * LuitvD wants an e2881, and wants work on porting that... Feb 26 15:38:30 stefan_schmidt: Leslie is the lead SoC woman Feb 26 15:38:33 too bad I can't attend untill next year Feb 26 15:38:44 LuitvD: Of course you can still work on QVGA stuff. Even if such a proposal gets accepted everybody else can also work on the same stuff. Feb 26 15:38:56 I use openmoko on a 64mb device Feb 26 15:39:01 works pretty well Feb 26 15:39:12 stefan_schmidt: but now I won't get paid by google :) Feb 26 15:39:18 koen: Ah, so definitly not Feb 26 15:39:19 and with qvga you can use a lot less memory (smaller pixmaps, etc) Feb 26 15:39:25 LuitvD: right Feb 26 15:39:35 and openmoko Inc won't get paid either... Feb 26 15:39:57 koen: Sean promised us to talk with the designer about an official qvga theme. Would be nice. Feb 26 15:40:05 :) Feb 26 15:40:20 stefan_schmidt: I know :) Feb 26 15:40:34 heh Feb 26 15:40:59 btw: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/400718251/ Feb 26 15:41:05 To much people to much talk, but at least even much fun at FOSDEM. :) Feb 26 15:42:36 koen: Good idea. In the evening I'll have a long photo journey. :) Feb 26 15:43:09 silly question perhaps, but does the 'nomad' on there have any signifigance? Feb 26 15:43:22 koen: You have done some photos in the crowed devroom at sean's talk? Feb 26 15:43:43 koen: I know florian has done some. Need to pester him to upload them. Feb 26 15:48:57 is there a overview about the colors of the cases which r available? Feb 26 15:49:22 the one i played with was orange & white Feb 26 15:49:34 koen: why does that device say "nomad" on it? Feb 26 15:50:42 LuitvD: we suspect 'nomad' makes the casings Feb 26 15:50:50 ah... Feb 26 15:55:48 openmoko: 03laforge * r1136 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: * add 6th altsetting and allow flashing of rootfs partition Feb 26 15:56:09 koen: hi, do you have and idea why when i build openmoko-devel-image for x86 it puts in rootfs just ipkg stuff and nothing else? Feb 26 15:56:26 Magon: no idea, sorry Feb 26 15:56:56 koen: i can post you log.do_rootfs Feb 26 15:57:41 openmoko: 03laforge * r1137 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: bump revision to moko3 Feb 26 15:57:50 http://www.ms.mff.cuni.cz/~kupem6am/log.do_rootfs.6148 Feb 26 16:02:02 koen: look at tweakers :D 3 headlines today about either open-source or GNU/Linux :) Feb 26 16:09:03 Ok - that's FAQ updated on introduction, and hardware - somewhat, I'll tackle the mess that is some of the run-on USB answers later. Feb 26 16:09:55 what is the difference between image_ipk and image in image files ? Feb 26 16:47:57 * rob_w listening to mickey|fosdem07 Feb 26 17:02:35 moin Feb 26 17:27:14 hi Feb 26 17:38:04 re Feb 26 17:50:56 counter Feb 26 17:50:56 P0: a week, 2 days 17:34:33 (0.732 - 9.732 days); P1: 23.732 - 33.732; P2: 186.732 - 216.732 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (407) Feb 26 17:53:33 Is it only me, or is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Will_a_JTAG_port_be_made_available.3F not really up-to-date? Should I just fix it? Feb 26 17:53:50 Sure. Feb 26 17:54:04 I haven't looked at that bit - I just reordered, and rewrote a little of it. Feb 26 17:55:04 No reproach intended. I'm just reading the FAQ and being curious. :) Feb 26 17:55:21 *fixing* Feb 26 17:55:22 I've sorted it into semi-sane order I hope :) Feb 26 17:58:56 Yep. Feb 26 18:01:59 done. Feb 26 18:13:44 SpeedEvil - I "fixed" the USB heading levels in the FAQ. :) Feb 26 18:19:54 K Feb 26 18:30:22 wtf is a simfree phone Feb 26 18:31:03 buz: another name for wired phone? :) Feb 26 18:31:28 lol Feb 26 18:32:32 buz: I'd want that Feb 26 18:32:41 I mean to use the Neo without a sim in it Feb 26 18:32:47 oh Feb 26 18:32:48 well Feb 26 18:32:51 its not a phone anymore then Feb 26 18:32:53 To play mp3, or surf via bluetooth ro so Feb 26 18:32:57 You can use it - but not as a phone. Feb 26 18:32:57 or Feb 26 18:33:12 Well, sip headset maybe Feb 26 18:33:19 If you use bluetooth networking Feb 26 18:33:28 SIM free usually means 'a phone that's bought without a SIM' Feb 26 18:33:54 SpeedEvil: Aha.. I've always bought phones that way, didn't know Feb 26 18:33:58 Rather than operating the phone without the SIM. Feb 26 18:34:19 In some places, it can be hard to get one without a contract included. Feb 26 18:34:25 Or hard to get a SIM without a phone. Feb 26 18:34:51 True.. I'm only used to the Swedish market, and it's pretty free.. Feb 26 18:35:15 * dottedmag .oO(in Russia it's easy to get sim or phone without sim) Feb 26 18:35:22 same here Feb 26 18:35:26 The UK market is pretty free that way - all the carriers have 'SIM only' offers, and phones are widely available too. Feb 26 18:35:29 Well - almost all. Feb 26 18:35:32 easiest and cheapest is actually prepaid phone with sim Feb 26 18:35:45 usually the phones are just network locked so you can throw away that prepay card Feb 26 18:35:55 3 doesn't let you put their SIMs in non-3G phones, or they ban you. Feb 26 18:36:01 which is likely what i'll do tomorrow seeing that my p900 wont receive sms anymore Feb 26 18:36:02 hm. I checked how my phone operate without SIM. It starts some pretty stupid demo :) Feb 26 18:36:06 *operates Feb 26 18:36:30 are any of those super sim thingies with like1G storage standardized? Feb 26 18:36:47 I think the only standard is 64K isn't it? Feb 26 18:36:52 yes Feb 26 18:36:53 On large SIMs. Feb 26 18:36:59 but they are working on USB sims and mmc sims Feb 26 18:37:15 omg. what about PCIExpress sims? :) Feb 26 18:37:33 You mean SIMs that are also USB or MMC cards, or the SIM is a MMC/USB peripheral? Feb 26 18:37:44 SpeedEvil: not sure actually Feb 26 18:37:55 sim as usb peripheral would be neat Feb 26 18:38:20 another thing nobody understands: if you sign a contract, you pay 40 chf for a sim card Feb 26 18:38:32 if you get prepay, it's free and comes with credit loaded already Feb 26 18:39:34 I can get a prepay simcard with 15 euros-worth of load, for 4 euro's :) Feb 26 18:40:34 at some point i could get one with 20chf load for free Feb 26 18:40:47 (but they wouldnt switch numbers to it, so it was essentially useless) Feb 26 18:41:24 they do switch numbers for that 15 euros-worth for 4 euro Feb 26 18:41:31 lol Feb 26 18:41:44 still come out 7eur ahead Feb 26 18:41:56 kinda painful to always switch numbers thoug Feb 26 18:42:15 i want a prepaid card with cheap gprs traffic Feb 26 18:42:23 like say pay 10EUR for 1G Feb 26 18:42:34 :P Feb 26 18:42:48 i can guarantee you they would make more money of me than now Feb 26 18:43:15 LuitvD: exactly what country is this? Could be interesting now that pay-by-phone is becoming popular ;D Feb 26 18:43:15 Well - not really. Feb 26 18:43:29 The charges they face for data traffic can be quite high. Feb 26 18:43:40 Especially when they have to pay roaming agreements. Feb 26 18:43:44 DeVol: just north of yours :) Feb 26 18:43:59 There is only so much GPRS capacity out there, underpricing it, and letting it get congested would be insane. Feb 26 18:44:22 fwiw, they can do it with umts for all i care Feb 26 18:44:39 and rate limit it to 64kbit Feb 26 18:45:11 i dont believe one second that gprs spectrum is anywhere close to being used up right now Feb 26 18:45:43 oh maybe ringtones use it up Feb 26 18:46:34 In places - it is. Feb 26 18:46:44 GPRS slows down, when it is congested. Feb 26 18:46:51 In many places it's very slow. Feb 26 18:47:04 And GPRS and GSM spectrum are the same thing. Feb 26 18:47:17 There is a tradeoff between calls and data. Feb 26 18:48:56 i NEVER have had issues getting call connection in switzerland Feb 26 18:49:00 hopfully thats not so much of a problem now that most places have 3G Feb 26 18:49:03 only place that ever was an issue was hk Feb 26 18:49:25 ie.. the kind of people who would want lots of data will use 3G and stay off gprs Feb 26 18:50:53 what are 3G data prices like anyway? Feb 26 18:52:58 depends where you are i guess Feb 26 18:54:35 here you can get a static fee of 50$ a month Feb 26 19:13:04 for the people on the community list: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=224174&cid=18155400 Feb 26 19:25:15 <|Lupin|> Hello Feb 26 19:25:21 counter Feb 26 19:25:21 P0: a week, 2 days 16:00:07 (0.667 - 9.667 days); P1: 23.667 - 33.667; P2: 186.667 - 216.667 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (408) Feb 26 19:25:21 hi Feb 26 19:26:37 hi, is this counter broken? everytime somebody type "counter" i see more and more days in P0 :O Feb 26 19:27:20 mikesh: The p0 release gets postponed time after time Feb 26 19:29:04 LuitvD: oh, ok :) Feb 26 19:31:52 is anyone using the MokoMakefile and getting a build error when trying to build gta01-kernel because uboot-mkimage is non-existent? Feb 26 19:34:45 Q)Why did the multithreaded chicken cross the road? Feb 26 19:34:45 A)to To other side. get the Feb 26 19:34:45 Q)Why did the multithreaded chicken cross the road? Feb 26 19:34:45 A)other to side. To the get Feb 26 19:36:01 * greghunt hits SpeedEvil with an incendiary device Feb 26 19:36:35 * greghunt watches him run in parallel Feb 26 19:36:58 :P Feb 26 19:37:18 I always control my legs in parallel... Feb 26 19:45:48 so you jump instead of walk Feb 26 19:45:53 * denis^da fingers hurt because of playing the guitar too long :> Feb 26 19:50:48 * LuitvD thinks he f***d up his robot Feb 26 19:51:13 what do you need to use galileo, anyway Feb 26 19:51:14 somehow the circuit is weird... Feb 26 19:51:28 buz: we first need the sattelites :) Feb 26 19:51:45 well on the client Feb 26 19:57:02 * buz wants to know about neo 1.5 specs Feb 26 19:57:26 There is nothing other than those few words. Feb 26 19:57:31 i now Feb 26 19:57:33 know Feb 26 19:57:39 but they dont parse very well Feb 26 19:57:44 aside of better than neo 1 Feb 26 19:57:48 which is kinda expected Feb 26 19:58:11 i wonder if they could really pull it off designing a new device until june Feb 26 19:58:12 Faster CPU - I wonder if this may imply USB2 - on a faster SOC - which would be very nice. Feb 26 19:58:31 faster gsm -> edge Feb 26 19:58:38 Possibly. Feb 26 19:58:49 well going to gprs class a would be stupid Feb 26 19:58:54 and umts is not really gsm anymore Feb 26 19:59:06 new device ? did I miss something ? :> Feb 26 19:59:10 yeah - GPRS class A is another possibility - that I hope it's not doing. Feb 26 19:59:21 watch the fosdem video Feb 26 19:59:27 starting at say 30:10 Feb 26 19:59:28 There was confirmation that P1 and P2 devices are not the same. Feb 26 19:59:29 I'd say yes please to a low end 2d accelerator. Feb 26 19:59:48 i think i'll hold out to p2 Feb 26 19:59:55 ah, they announced that stuff there :) Feb 26 20:00:04 oh you know anything about that? Feb 26 20:00:10 yeah I watched it but half sleeping half awake yesterday evening .D Feb 26 20:00:22 sean oracle Feb 26 20:00:25 not much, pretty much what you've heard, but a bit earlier in Tampere while sworn to secrecy ;) Feb 26 20:00:34 I got some good news on agpsd Feb 26 20:00:38 :) Feb 26 20:00:41 it won't be a binary blob Feb 26 20:00:45 :)) Feb 26 20:00:49 it will be a binary plugin to gpsd Feb 26 20:00:49 open source? Feb 26 20:00:56 Oh. Feb 26 20:00:57 so slighty better Feb 26 20:01:01 So it is a blob. Feb 26 20:01:03 which normal person buys the phone 2 times ? :> Feb 26 20:01:03 still a blob Feb 26 20:01:04 and we get the standard api Feb 26 20:01:07 how is a plugin not a blob? Feb 26 20:01:11 slightly less L but blob nevertheless Feb 26 20:01:45 * SpeedEvil still wants dumps of agpsd interaction with hammerhead. Feb 26 20:02:04 * buz still doesnt really care for gps Feb 26 20:02:16 I'm sure it doesn't like you either. Feb 26 20:02:52 GPS is handy for more things than just the position IMO. Feb 26 20:03:00 i wonder if p2 device will have other gps chip Feb 26 20:03:03 hmm it would be interesting if there will be more facts about the v2 device otherwise it is not really transparent from my point of view Feb 26 20:03:07 SpeedEvil: like correct time Feb 26 20:03:10 Yeah. Feb 26 20:03:34 Which means that you can do stuff like waking up at time -0.5s, listening for .1s, and going back to sleep if no signal. Feb 26 20:03:40 denis^da: I tried to get the people that know drunk, but they still wouldn't tell anything Feb 26 20:03:57 hmm Feb 26 20:04:04 should have called upon some hookers instead of beer Feb 26 20:04:13 Saving lots of power for wifi and bluetooth. Feb 26 20:04:15 In my opinion it's quite the opposite of being open... Feb 26 20:04:16 it would be commercial suicide to release details of v2 before v1 sales have started Feb 26 20:04:25 Indeed. Feb 26 20:04:28 yeah commerical thats it Feb 26 20:04:29 possibly Feb 26 20:04:41 BUT: this way people may still wait Feb 26 20:04:45 I suspect V1.5 hardware'll be available a little before mass market. Feb 26 20:04:45 then be disappointed Feb 26 20:05:10 they should go to e28 and get the e2881 with vga Feb 26 20:05:13 It's been said that there will be credits for early adopters. Feb 26 20:05:17 :P Feb 26 20:05:17 this secrets suck Feb 26 20:05:17 Which is good. Feb 26 20:05:29 gimme some data about those "credits" Feb 26 20:05:31 there will be but how do they look like ... Feb 26 20:06:09 10% off doesnt really matter Feb 26 20:06:13 50% would Feb 26 20:06:21 is there a high res version of the moko presentation? Feb 26 20:06:23 can't read the slides Feb 26 20:06:33 i'd rather get the slides Feb 26 20:06:34 denis^da: the openmoko project is about free software, not free hardware product plans Feb 26 20:06:51 not asking for free hardware Feb 26 20:06:52 (nor free schematics, nor ....) Feb 26 20:07:00 just information to budget my purchasing decisions Feb 26 20:07:06 at the moment it's quite mysterious for me. I really like the phone but it would suckt if there will be a phone with more features 5 months later Feb 26 20:07:07 The openmoko project is really about FIC making money. Feb 26 20:07:19 obviously Feb 26 20:07:26 FIC at the moment are one of several companies called by nokia/... to make a new phone. Feb 26 20:07:28 but me buying stuff is about me getting the most for the least Feb 26 20:07:30 Profit is small. Feb 26 20:07:44 Sell to end-users directly - profit is big. Feb 26 20:07:55 SpeedEvil: i see no problem in making money with openhardware. Feb 26 20:07:55 Even if you have competitors in the same market. Feb 26 20:08:05 Me neither. Feb 26 20:08:13 SpeedEvil: that to, but the fact is that they've only ever promised that the software will be free (as in speech) - yet everyone continues to seem to expect them to open up absolutely everything (including future product plans). Feb 26 20:08:22 but if you're gonna go the "be fair route" you better stick to it Feb 26 20:08:22 yeah. Feb 26 20:08:25 SpeedEvil: it's about creating new devices which make money Feb 26 20:08:31 I'd like open schematics. Feb 26 20:08:37 I really doubt it'll happen. Feb 26 20:08:46 Unless anyone does the reverse engineering thing. Feb 26 20:08:56 open schematics is so niche it really doesnt pay for fix Feb 26 20:08:57 fic Feb 26 20:09:00 maybe they only want to patent good software ideas Feb 26 20:09:00 rwhitby, if we would talk about a V2 that would come out in 2008 that would be ok but not 4 months later ... Feb 26 20:09:00 SpeedEvil: on Fosdem they speak open about their new business model. Feb 26 20:09:07 buz: I don't think OpenMoko promised to "be fair" - they promised to open the phone software stack. that's all. Feb 26 20:09:08 denis^da: exactly Feb 26 20:09:16 I know I'm going to be trying to find a way of getting the I2C bus accessible. Feb 26 20:09:21 or at least, some companies will Feb 26 20:09:23 rwhitby: seans rhetoric kinda implies being fair Feb 26 20:09:36 implies != commits to Feb 26 20:09:41 buz, yeah I searched that sentence :) Feb 26 20:10:06 you dont want to piss off the very people that will make or break your platform Feb 26 20:10:20 anyway, all I'm saying is that people shouldn't bust FIC's or OpenMoko's balls when they don't do things they never committed to do in the first place ... Feb 26 20:10:39 and if you drop much improved hardware upon without announcing you're gonna do so you WILL piss them off Feb 26 20:10:41 like renaming to GNU/FIC? Feb 26 20:11:17 hmm start of the presentation sounds like bullshit bingo material :P Feb 26 20:11:19 rwhitby: however, fic should expect to be held to higher standards than other cellphone makers now Feb 26 20:11:46 buz: why? FIC is a hardware company. OpenMoko is the company that is producing a free phone software stack. Feb 26 20:11:59 the guy from trolltech at Fosdem mentioned more guys trying to open up the phone-software is a good thing Feb 26 20:12:02 rwhitby, I can understand your point. But at the moment they are not better than any other provider. Feb 26 20:12:21 so who owns openmoko ltd Feb 26 20:12:21 so far the interface to the GSM network is done via a closed chip, with AT-commands Feb 26 20:12:31 buz: openmoko inc Feb 26 20:12:36 denis^da: why should they be? at the moment (i.e. before the OpenMoko movement takes off) it doesn't make them any more money. Feb 26 20:12:57 koen: i dont really care for legalese right now Feb 26 20:12:58 rwhitby, yeah that is right but FIC and the hardware NEO is connectet to OpenMoko. And if they piss people off with getting out one phone after the other. They won't any hardware. Feb 26 20:13:14 +sell Feb 26 20:13:24 exactly Feb 26 20:13:26 geeks remember well Feb 26 20:13:36 Neo is only the first OpenMoko hardware. Should you apply the same arguments to Motorola or Nokia (cause OpenMoko *will* get ported to their phones)? Feb 26 20:13:48 so you will get pissed of when openmoko works on the htc universal as well? Feb 26 20:13:56 neo has official support for openmoko Feb 26 20:13:57 native even Feb 26 20:13:57 koen: exactly Feb 26 20:13:59 since that's got better hardware, but didn't announce it? Feb 26 20:14:01 I don't think it will be ported to Nokia Feb 26 20:14:19 not with that freedom of accessing nearly every hardware Feb 26 20:14:37 nearly every hardware... Feb 26 20:14:45 but not the GSM chip Feb 26 20:14:46 if another vendor sells openmoko native phones, we will hold them to the same level Feb 26 20:14:57 at the nokia phones ? never Feb 26 20:14:59 as for porting openmoko to $hardware, thats another story Feb 26 20:15:14 geeks may remember well, but geeks are a very small market, so a business person at FIC (or any other hardware manufacturer) probably wouldn't care. Feb 26 20:15:34 they will if their intended developers jump ship Feb 26 20:15:46 buz: openmoko != FIC Feb 26 20:15:51 jump ship to exactly what? Feb 26 20:15:56 developers are developing for openmoko, not FIC hardware Feb 26 20:16:00 sure Feb 26 20:16:15 * koen wants openmoko on his motorola Feb 26 20:16:21 but right now, fic hardware (and possibly the universal but that barely qualifies as a phone) are the only phones that really run it Feb 26 20:16:53 openmoko simply is the experiment from FIC to get the 'building blocks' out there, to see if new 'lifeforms' (neoforms) will be created by the community Feb 26 20:17:23 or rather, the experiment from this sean-dude, he mentioned at fosdem he still has to convince his boss about all this Feb 26 20:17:24 exactly Feb 26 20:17:31 DeVol, but that is a lot of marketing ;) Feb 26 20:17:42 its far from unheard of Feb 26 20:17:52 much cheaper than vista marketing in any case Feb 26 20:18:00 the neo, htc magician, htc universal and the motorola a780 have run openmoko last week Feb 26 20:18:18 as far as earth shattering platforms go, openmoko is a cheap one Feb 26 20:18:32 possibly earth shattering Feb 26 20:18:42 but the htc magician can't make calls because the dial button is off screen ;) Feb 26 20:18:48 :D Feb 26 20:19:05 In my opinion such a open mobile os needs open hardware to get everything out of it. Feb 26 20:19:10 pH5: I called that a 'minor issue' ;) Feb 26 20:22:01 can openmoko be run on tytn Feb 26 20:23:10 ah forget it, unsubsized tytn is way too expensive Feb 26 20:23:22 but the p990i has gotten quite reasonably prized later Feb 26 20:23:37 bummer the software is even worse than winmob Feb 26 20:37:49 How are the HTC thingies price And do they happen to run OM, or is that a a proper "supported" thing? Feb 26 20:37:49 LuitvD: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6946488091.html Feb 26 20:38:13 but the e2881 is muuuch sleeker Feb 26 20:38:50 2200mah is impressive though Feb 26 20:39:24 looks like it comes straight out of a happy meal or something Feb 26 20:39:37 yeah... yuck Feb 26 20:39:46 very ugly Feb 26 20:39:50 Very fat Feb 26 20:40:04 mind you, to be fair, the Neo does look like it fits the OLPC family of products Feb 26 20:40:08 damn the gupp is an ugly thingie Feb 26 20:40:17 koen: ping Feb 26 20:40:20 the guck looks like neo's evil twin Feb 26 20:40:23 VERY evil Feb 26 20:40:35 yeah neo looks like playmobil Feb 26 20:40:49 e2881 has the by far neatest linux phones so far Feb 26 20:40:55 (ok a1200 is neat too) Feb 26 20:41:19 v2 sounds awesome Feb 26 20:41:27 I'll still get v1 for dev etc though Feb 26 20:41:47 hmm, everybody talks about the e28, but has anybody asked them about source? Feb 26 20:42:02 stefan_schmidt: both buz and me Feb 26 20:42:10 ok Feb 26 20:42:12 also about price Feb 26 20:42:15 no answer to either Feb 26 20:42:16 Waiting for reply? Feb 26 20:42:21 ah, ok Feb 26 20:42:23 stefan_schmidt: did I show you the mail, or did I show mickey? :P Feb 26 20:42:24 yeah for a long while not Feb 26 20:42:25 now Feb 26 20:42:38 you did show it to me, that i know Feb 26 20:42:42 LuitvD: Must be mickey Feb 26 20:42:57 should have sent it to LaF0rge instead Feb 26 20:43:28 no, wait, I showed rwhitby Feb 26 20:43:29 :P Feb 26 20:43:31 koen: don't forget to tag your fosdem photos with Fosdem 2007 Feb 26 20:43:32 http://pastebin.com/887592 Feb 26 20:43:50 btw, rwhitby, heard anything about linksys nas200? Feb 26 20:43:59 thet hing doesnt seem to exist Feb 26 20:44:31 damn, pastebin is slow :P Feb 26 20:44:38 never use pastebin.com Feb 26 20:44:43 lol Feb 26 20:44:50 pastebin.ca ftw Feb 26 20:45:24 buz: nope Feb 26 20:45:37 yet to ship as far as I kno Feb 26 20:45:49 no specs either right Feb 26 20:48:39 stefan_schmidt: did I forget anything in that mail? Feb 26 20:48:49 * CM just finished watching the FOSDEM presentation :) Feb 26 20:49:08 LuitvD: You mean the mail you showed buz and not me? :) Feb 26 20:49:29 ... Feb 26 20:49:35 pastebin link... Feb 26 20:49:55 mokomakefile finished an x86 build overnight. Feb 26 20:50:23 mine still isn't done :) Feb 26 20:50:34 http://pastebin.ca/373569 Feb 26 20:50:34 stops on random stuff I'm missing all the time :P Feb 26 20:50:35 there Feb 26 20:50:39 rwhitby: Cool :) Feb 26 20:50:41 that one is faster :) Feb 26 20:50:58 DesktopMa: that just means you didn't complete step 1 properly :-) Feb 26 20:51:13 pfff, makefile should get what it needs ;) Feb 26 20:51:52 DesktopMa: absolutely not. Too many hosts OS's (that I can't test) to support that. Feb 26 20:52:02 :D Feb 26 20:53:09 stefan_schmidt: http://pastebin.ca/373569, what do you think? did I forget anything? Feb 26 20:54:05 LuitvD: Let me read... Feb 26 20:54:36 stefan_schmidt: no speedreading? Feb 26 20:54:39 :) Feb 26 20:57:24 LuitvD: Looks ok. It's a polite start. Keep me informed. Feb 26 20:58:01 stefan_schmidt: I will :) Feb 26 20:58:43 stefan_schmidt: (as soon as I can't stop talking about how great e28 is, you'll know I had a response :) ) Feb 26 20:58:51 Stephmw: it seems my flickr uploader messed up the tags Feb 26 20:58:51 heh Feb 26 20:59:25 koen: drat Feb 26 20:59:44 koen: I'm going through my shots now, selecting which ones I'll postprocess for flickr Feb 26 20:59:49 LuitvD: Only qvga, and sucky battery, but otherwise it looks nice :) Feb 26 21:00:01 CM: what? Feb 26 21:00:17 QVGA is big enaugh for me... Feb 26 21:00:18 LuitvD: e2881? Feb 26 21:00:19 and the battery? Feb 26 21:00:25 what's wrong with that? Feb 26 21:00:35 Talk time 3 hours (either VoIP or GSM); Standby 120 hours Feb 26 21:01:02 CM: you think the neo can do better? Feb 26 21:01:20 Probably not, considering the screen Feb 26 21:01:26 :) Feb 26 21:01:38 But I hope it can with that nokia battery Feb 26 21:01:38 Stephmw: it seems I missed meeting you at fosdem Feb 26 21:01:56 koen: yeah, I missed everyone in here :( Feb 26 21:01:58 xx-c5 or something (Can't remember the first two letters) Feb 26 21:02:06 koen: I didn't realise the Java track would take so much of my time Feb 26 21:02:17 CM: where did you find the fosdem presentation? Feb 26 21:02:24 BL-5C Feb 26 21:02:49 most BL-5C batteries available are 850mAh Feb 26 21:02:49 :P Feb 26 21:02:53 DeVol: It's on google video Feb 26 21:03:01 i think i goto sleep Feb 26 21:03:01 k tnx Feb 26 21:03:02 night Feb 26 21:03:02 DeVol: And also as a downloadable avi Feb 26 21:03:14 DeVol: the location was posted to community list Feb 26 21:03:16 CM: where as an avi? Feb 26 21:03:18 http://hentges.net/tmp/FOSDEM/ Feb 26 21:03:23 Same movie, two sizes Feb 26 21:03:27 Is the 350M version available anywhere? Feb 26 21:03:41 surely it'll hit piratebay soon Feb 26 21:03:43 I want to try cropping and perspectiving so it gets only the screen. Feb 26 21:03:51 well i was there live, but just wondering if there was more where that came from :) Feb 26 21:03:53 /stage Feb 26 21:03:58 SpeedEvil: That would be sweet :) Feb 26 21:04:08 Good presentation.. Worth watching Feb 26 21:04:14 Yep. Feb 26 21:04:26 DeVol: agreed - I was there too... by the door. If you grumbled at the lights coming on a few times... one of those was me ;) Feb 26 21:04:30 rwhitby: Do you have the 350 mb version to send to SpeedEvil? :) Feb 26 21:04:32 SpeedEvil: there is an official FOSDEM video that hasn't been released yet as well Feb 26 21:04:39 Oh - OK. Feb 26 21:04:46 Nice Feb 26 21:04:55 Stephmw: hehe Feb 26 21:04:57 CM: not any more Feb 26 21:04:58 how much do the gps affect price? Feb 26 21:04:59 I was just wanting to get the one on the wiki good, in case it gets /.'d Feb 26 21:05:18 I'd guess the GPS component parts BOM is around $15 Feb 26 21:05:33 Which probably adds $30 to the cost. Feb 26 21:05:55 Stephmw: yeah, fosdem is just too much fun for only two days Feb 26 21:05:59 SpeedEvil: really think it's that high? that's usually higher than the CPU for high-volume builds. Feb 26 21:06:17 There is lots of stuff. Feb 26 21:06:20 stefan_schmidt: nice talk @fosdem... good Feb 26 21:06:26 i think i read about 5USD for hammerhead somewhere Feb 26 21:06:38 Then you've got the RG frontend. Feb 26 21:06:48 The SAW crystal filters Feb 26 21:06:55 the filters, the active antenna. Feb 26 21:07:03 greentux: Thanks. First english talk so far. Anyway, I'm more or less happy with it. Feb 26 21:07:57 Plus, the seperate cost of having to attach the antenna, and fit it in the case manually. Feb 26 21:08:20 stefan_schmidt: yes, was interesting. hope the moko stuff will come up on that thingy Feb 26 21:08:29 SpeedEvil: I see. Feb 26 21:08:45 I wouldn't be astonished to hear $10 - but probably not much less. I could of course be completely wrong. Feb 26 21:08:57 how much would edge/3g affect it? I don't have much knowledge about hardware Feb 26 21:09:01 stefan_schmidt: you were the technical guy in the fosdem talk? Feb 26 21:09:10 As I understand it, GPS is much much more. Feb 26 21:09:12 Err Feb 26 21:09:18 3G is much mucm more Feb 26 21:09:23 I see Feb 26 21:09:27 The modules are more complex. Feb 26 21:09:31 will, I'd throw in 50$ for edge+4g Feb 26 21:09:32 atleast Feb 26 21:09:32 DeVol: No, not at the OpenMoko talk. I gave one about OpenEZX Feb 26 21:09:33 and higher tech. Feb 26 21:09:40 * Feb 26 21:09:40 3 Feb 26 21:09:42 I'd say that's not unreasonable. Feb 26 21:09:54 Which translates to $100 or so on the sticker. Feb 26 21:10:06 I'd buy it. :P Feb 26 21:11:02 low end nvidia 2d accelerator would be extremely sweet too. but would require a bigger hardware design change unfortunatly. Feb 26 21:11:19 And more importantly, a seperate chip. Feb 26 21:11:24 yep Feb 26 21:11:26 And much more complex memory bus. Feb 26 21:11:32 but it would sweet it up quite a bit Feb 26 21:11:34 and lower power usage Feb 26 21:12:03 I don't know. I don't really see where the 2D hardware need comes from. Feb 26 21:12:15 Unless you want to do hardware wipes. Feb 26 21:12:50 Zoomed video really helps too, though QVGA mode almost works for that. Feb 26 21:13:06 cpu usage, image processing, games Feb 26 21:13:20 MOTORAZR V3xx has a 5300 Feb 26 21:13:39 or, no, 4800 I think Feb 26 21:14:48 I was surprised on looking at MP3 chip powers. I was under the impression that feeding the MP3 stream to a hardware decoder in 'slow mode' would be a win. Feb 26 21:15:00 It's not, it's more or less a wash. Feb 26 21:15:18 You have to turn the CPU off, and have a chip reading the flash itsself to actually win. Feb 26 21:15:46 yeah I noticed the advantages in lower cpu speed wasn't really that ibg Feb 26 21:15:58 LuitvD, keep us informed if you get replay to your mail :) Feb 26 21:16:03 reply Feb 26 21:16:14 denis^da: I will Feb 26 21:16:27 denis^da: I think I'll post it on the wiki, if the response is promising Feb 26 21:17:11 LuitvD, yeah that would be cool. Feb 26 21:17:12 It's not that bad. It's good, in combination with active mode - with MP3, it saves quite a lot of power if you can blip between the modes decoding MP3. It adds better than half to the mp3 play time. Feb 26 21:20:59 do you have numbers on the power usage in normal vs slow mode? Feb 26 21:21:21 SLOW is unlikely to be powerful enough to play mp3s Feb 26 21:24:48 mhh, yeah, definitely, at 10-20 mhz you wont be able to decode, but maybe decode at full speed to a buffer and then play in slow mode? at 266mhz you should be able to decode quite some in advance? Feb 26 21:25:26 slow only gets you 12MHz or lower Feb 26 21:25:54 and iirc, you need at least 20MHz to do mp3 Feb 26 21:26:53 Slow is 12, yes. Feb 26 21:27:10 12MHz divided Feb 26 21:27:12 IIRC someone said that fast gets you mp3 with 1/3 CPU Feb 26 21:27:27 iirc, mp3 can be done in about 10-15% CPU Feb 26 21:27:40 So, the '1/2 extra' number was based on that. Feb 26 21:27:41 it gets worse if you don't use integer calculations Feb 26 21:28:01 if slow has a lower voltage it'll take less power Feb 26 21:28:03 In that case... Feb 26 21:28:11 it's a bit better than that. Feb 26 21:28:14 otherwise it'll be a wash i think Feb 26 21:28:19 It's not. Feb 26 21:28:30 slow turns off the PLLs, which take a bit of power Feb 26 21:28:43 Slow mode uses 50mW or so (inc RAM and stuff) active-but-idle uses 150mW Feb 26 21:28:44 and the core consumption draws about 1/2 less too Feb 26 21:29:04 So any time you can swap active-idle for slow is a win. Feb 26 21:30:10 annoyingly it takes 150-300uS for the PLLs to stabalise changing back to NORMAL Feb 26 21:30:31 SpeedEvil - Any idea how complex (including power wise) the switching to/from slow-mode is? Feb 26 21:30:32 so there is a penalty involved Feb 26 21:30:53 Ahh, fluffs has the numbers. ;) Feb 26 21:31:16 0.3ms is a lot... Feb 26 21:31:35 aha, at some places chinese newyear isn't over yet :) Feb 26 21:31:40 NoAh - I hadn't got that far. Feb 26 21:31:47 Damn. Feb 26 21:31:53 .3ms is a big click. Feb 26 21:32:04 I wonder if you can prestart teh PLLs Feb 26 21:32:10 no Feb 26 21:32:13 And only switch when stable. Feb 26 21:32:24 :( Feb 26 21:32:52 but during the stablisation period it outputs the pll input clock Feb 26 21:32:57 iirdc Feb 26 21:33:05 still got the cpufreq code to finish Feb 26 21:33:06 Right. I just wanted to suggest "switch to slow mode" where x86 does HLT to idle. ;) Of course that's a bad idea with 0.3ms "get back to normailty". Feb 26 21:33:29 Elrond: there's a seperate cpu idle which doesn't shtdown the PLLs Feb 26 21:33:35 just the ARM core Feb 26 21:33:52 But that's active-idle with 150mW? Feb 26 21:34:00 That doesn't save that much power though. Feb 26 21:34:04 mhh, the user's manual says that you can first enable the pll, then later return to normal mode Feb 26 21:34:31 so you should be able to prestart the PLL Feb 26 21:34:40 So, that would otentialoly work with clickless audiol. Feb 26 21:35:03 vmaster: you may as well switch to the pll and start it Feb 26 21:35:35 since SLOW and PLL input clocks are the same thing Feb 26 21:36:44 i guess the point of pre-starting the pll was to stay in SLOW for as long as possible without potentially beeing too late for the necessary decoding Feb 26 21:36:56 (of course it's confusing to me, that slow takes 50mW, while normal+IDLE takes 150mW) Feb 26 21:37:07 the PLLs burn quite a bit of power, iirc Feb 26 21:37:18 You want a stable clock if you are tying to throw samples at teh DAC reliably though. Feb 26 21:37:29 before switching. Feb 26 21:37:52 .3ms of dead time = click Feb 26 21:37:56 as i said earlier, the PLLs switch the input clock to the output dring the stabilisation Feb 26 21:38:04 SpeedEvil: ah, ok, that's guaranteed Feb 26 21:38:22 SpeedEvil: you'll always be running either at the input clock or on the pll Feb 26 21:38:29 SpeedEvil - The .3ms is the time needed to switch from slow to normal. The CPU -- according to fluffs -- runs in SLOW while switching. Feb 26 21:38:35 But is there a "I stabilised" interrupt? Feb 26 21:38:41 no Feb 26 21:39:01 fluffs - So the CPU just switches to normal at an unknown time? Feb 26 21:39:18 see the PLL LOCKTIME register Feb 26 21:40:25 On a sort-of-related topic - the USB controller doesn't work in slow does it. Feb 26 21:40:30 SpeedEvil - Has the WM codec some buffer? If yes, and 12MHz are enough for 0.3ms, there shouldn't be a click. Feb 26 21:40:45 Err - no. Feb 26 21:40:47 hmm, maybe i've got this wrong Feb 26 21:40:53 There is AIUI no buffer at all. Feb 26 21:41:00 It's just an ADC, with no fifo. Feb 26 21:41:06 * SpeedEvil checks. Feb 26 21:42:04 gah, wrong, during locktime FCLK is not supplied Feb 26 21:42:23 but you can restart the PLL before exiting SLOW Feb 26 21:42:43 The WM* product info sheet makes no mention of fifo Feb 26 21:42:52 and I don't see it on the diagram, so I'd say no. Feb 26 21:43:15 :( Feb 26 21:43:21 though measurments tend to suggest that it does lock down to EXTCLK Feb 26 21:43:27 "During PLL lock time, the FCLK becomes SLOW clock." Feb 26 21:44:08 In the USB section it mentions 'PCLK >20MHZ for this to work' - I assume in slow mode, PCLK = 12MHz? Feb 26 21:44:17 So USB won't work in slow? Feb 26 21:44:45 SpeedEvil: I guess it will be still divided by the same chain, so will be it will FCLK / (HDIV+PDIV) Feb 26 21:44:54 Well, usb hopefully means power... so no real need for slow mode? Feb 26 21:45:10 True - I though the bluetooth module was USB Feb 26 21:45:33 So no bluetooth in slow mode - if that's right. Feb 26 21:45:35 Ohh. I have no idea, how the BT module is connected to the SoC. Feb 26 21:45:44 SpeedEvil: it is, according to the wiki Feb 26 21:45:47 usb Feb 26 21:45:50 openmoko: 03laforge * r1138 10/trunk/oe/classes/sourcepkg.bbclass: (log message trimmed) Feb 26 21:45:50 openmoko: some packages (the only known so far is base-files) end up with src_dir=/ and Feb 26 21:45:50 openmoko: thus want to include the contents of the whole buildhost filesystem in their Feb 26 21:45:50 openmoko: source package. Feb 26 21:45:50 openmoko: This is not a fix, but a workaround. If the path is '/', we don't create Feb 26 21:45:51 openmoko: the source backage but rather print an error message into Feb 26 21:45:53 openmoko: $HOME/openembedded-source-missing.log Feb 26 21:46:04 openmoko: 03laforge * r1139 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb): we don't need two timestamps in the filename Feb 26 21:46:27 The LCD is also unclear - the product page linked to says it's got memory. Feb 26 21:46:41 But the controllers listed are simple dumb ones with no memory. Feb 26 21:47:18 Though that's less of an issue, as the backlight itself will use 150mW or so, even dimmed a bit. Feb 26 21:47:37 the lcd does keep a frame, I hope? Feb 26 21:48:02 probably not, most lcds will decay if not refreshed Feb 26 21:48:23 are there any dedicated refresher? or does the cpu have to do it constantly Feb 26 21:48:25 couldn't the controller refresh from ram? Feb 26 21:48:37 The LCD page says it's got RAM. Feb 26 21:48:42 yes, but the controller is using the HCLK Feb 26 21:48:42 But... Feb 26 21:49:01 so you'll end up with Audio and LCD DMA competing with CPU code fetches Feb 26 21:49:08 We really need to see actual datasheets for the LCD. Feb 26 21:49:16 To see if it supports lower clock rates. Feb 26 21:49:34 *2d chip cough* :P Feb 26 21:49:38 For example, a 'slowscan' mode - update at 3Hz. Feb 26 21:50:02 And refresh from internal memory. Feb 26 21:50:29 (3hz = 60Hz / (266/12)) Feb 26 21:50:32 640*480 2xx mhz, will the cpu have time for anything else? :) Feb 26 21:50:54 A non-trivial fraction of the memory bandwidth is used for that. Feb 26 21:51:01 At 60Hz, it's a lot of data. Feb 26 21:51:12 It'll use a fair bit less power in QVGA mode. Feb 26 21:51:21 If only from the memory bus lower activity. Feb 26 21:51:57 My laptop uses measurably less power in 4 bit X, than 24. Feb 26 21:52:05 does it purely double the pixels in qvga mode? Feb 26 21:52:19 It's a LCD command. Feb 26 21:52:20 trouble is that the memory needs 64uS refresh, so you'll also burn more bus time in memory refresh as the memory bus slows down Feb 26 21:52:21 IIRC Feb 26 21:52:31 is it normal that I have not maganed to made rootfs since openmoko source releases?? Feb 26 21:53:15 64us? Feb 26 21:53:27 µs? Feb 26 21:53:49 Magon: definitely not normal. I build an x86 rootfs overnight. Feb 26 21:54:02 Sounds faster than I expected. Feb 26 21:54:18 (using mokomakefile, and just changing build/conf/local.conf MACHINE to x86 Feb 26 21:54:42 rwhitby: ok...i am building kernel 3-time today...dont know why... Feb 26 21:54:52 rwhitby: i have switched to mokofile :-) Feb 26 21:55:04 kautobuild goes through a good 43 configs twice a day Feb 26 21:55:07 rwhitby: did it any error or not ? Feb 26 21:55:10 64ms says the datasheet. Feb 26 21:55:11 isn't sdram refresh ~64ms Feb 26 21:55:15 64ms Feb 26 21:55:15 yeah Feb 26 21:55:17 Magon: you're rebuilding things cause openmoko core team has chosen to set svnnow on all openmoko packages Feb 26 21:55:22 Magon: no errors Feb 26 21:55:48 rwhitby: do you have any idea why my make halts on perl-native? Feb 26 21:55:59 iirc, its about 64uS per refesh access Feb 26 21:56:01 no, cause I haven't seen a pastebin yet ... Feb 26 21:56:04 rwhitby: is perl-native necessary? Feb 26 21:56:28 everything OE builds is necessary. Feb 26 21:57:24 you need 8192 refresh cycles in 64ms Feb 26 21:57:33 rwhitby: http://pastebin.ca/373653 Feb 26 21:58:05 http://www.nvidia.com/object/hh_compare.html Feb 26 21:58:07 rwhitby: is that just a development-package I haven't got installed? Feb 26 21:58:14 rwhitby: ok...so just doing make setup; make openmoko-devel-image should work out of the box? Feb 26 21:58:36 if you have all the requirements Feb 26 21:58:44 so basically no, if you're like me Feb 26 21:58:55 requirements? Feb 26 21:59:00 then no Feb 26 21:59:00 :P Feb 26 21:59:07 * Magon hates OE Feb 26 21:59:13 LuitvD: never seen that one before Feb 26 21:59:13 OE is evil Feb 26 21:59:24 rwhitby: lol :) me neither Feb 26 21:59:27 magon no Feb 26 21:59:53 rwhitby: I never heard of perl-native before, and can't find it in my package lists... Feb 26 22:00:10 rwhitby: and google has got only a few hits... Feb 26 22:00:28 perl-native is the perl that OE builts on the build host Feb 26 22:01:14 can I disable it? Feb 26 22:01:17 Magon: feel free to use a different build system - let us know when it's ready to compile :-) Feb 26 22:02:23 LuitvD: what build host OS are you using again? Feb 26 22:02:32 rwhitby: i know that OE is the best..but it a bit irritate me not to manage to build it after week trying Feb 26 22:02:44 yes, thats an order of magnitude diff... about 7uS... i think we set 6.4uS to be sure Feb 26 22:03:04 and i is not first time i work with embedded devices, and not first time i do builds or programing Feb 26 22:03:18 so...OE is just a bit different than everything i have seen so far Feb 26 22:03:27 * DesktopMa likes gba/ds dev. one archive to extract, compiler done. one zip to extract, lib done. Feb 26 22:03:28 :) Feb 26 22:03:30 rwhitby: Ubuntu 7.04 (Feisty Fawn Herd 4) Feb 26 22:03:45 Magon: I think your expectations are set a bit too high for the current state of this project's build infrastructure. Feb 26 22:04:18 * fluffs goes to finish up the day by watching tv... too late to debug shit Feb 26 22:04:41 remember that you are being let into the *development* cycle of openmoko, you are not using a released product. it's not even an *alpha* release yet. Feb 26 22:04:50 Wave fluffs. Feb 26 22:05:01 rwhitby: you are right that building gpe-image is a bit easier.. Feb 26 22:05:05 Thanks. Feb 26 22:05:28 but main thing is to get enviroment working so i can start actually developing Feb 26 22:05:39 mayby i should start developing build system :-) Feb 26 22:05:46 Magon: right - that's why I developed MokoMakefile ... Feb 26 22:06:03 (to enable people to get OE/OpenMoko build system working quickly) Feb 26 22:06:16 rwhitby: and it's a plain i386 install because of x64 driver issues... Feb 26 22:06:28 rwhitby: i understand...and have to find the difference between my enviroment and mokomakefile one Feb 26 22:06:39 LuitvD: no idea - all I can say is that it builds for me on Debian Edge. Feb 26 22:07:02 hmm Feb 26 22:07:28 rwhitby: do you know if there's someone who has built a recent revision for qemuarm? Feb 26 22:07:30 like the dash problem, perhaps Ubuntu 7 is too bleeding edge for OE? Feb 26 22:07:42 dash problem? Feb 26 22:08:00 LuitvD: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash, which broke lots of (already broken, but working) things. Feb 26 22:08:09 LuitvD, i've done semi-recent versions. Feb 26 22:08:17 i guess it just depends what you think is recent ;) Feb 26 22:08:40 i've also done it on fc6/i386, but now on debian etch x86_64 Feb 26 22:08:49 with qemuarm targets Feb 26 22:08:57 jebba: more recent then the one I have... Feb 26 22:09:08 jebba: x86 built fine last night for me too Feb 26 22:09:13 jebba: I have your second build for qemuarm Feb 26 22:09:34 i haven't seen too much change since my builds except with uboot, and that doesnt work under qemu anyway (as i understand it) Feb 26 22:09:40 rwhitby: going to do another clean build...it have to work... Feb 26 22:09:50 jebba: that rotation thing? isn't that fixed yet? Feb 26 22:10:22 there was hack to stop uboot from constant building....do anyone know what was it? Feb 26 22:10:33 so good night guys Feb 26 22:10:40 I'm leaving now Feb 26 22:10:43 'night denis^da Feb 26 22:10:54 LuitvD, well the rotation thing was something I added for my own set up. My latest image has /no/ changes to it by my and it has some hack that makes `vi` and such work on the console. Feb 26 22:10:54 night LuitvD ;) Feb 26 22:11:33 jebba: where can I find that latest image? Feb 26 22:11:55 the OE/OM build process took awhile for me to get straight (i think a lot of it due to being two split projects), but in the end I think OE's build system is plenty nice :) Feb 26 22:12:22 Magon: the patch to stop continuous rebulding (but with the side effect of not building new versions automatically) is in the patches/openmoko-HEAD/series file - just uncomment the first two patches there. Feb 26 22:12:45 thx Feb 26 22:13:01 i know the sideeffect but it is better to build it separatly Feb 26 22:13:27 LuitvD, same place as always: ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/developers/jebba/openmoko Feb 26 22:13:42 rwhitby: the patch dir is yours? Feb 26 22:14:27 rwhitby: i will try to made clean build with mokofile from scratch again and if i get an error i will try to fix it and made a patch Feb 26 22:14:52 Magon: yes, that is the mokomakefile patchset Feb 26 22:15:33 rwhitby: mokofile uses openmoko SVN head and OE svn from some date..right/ Feb 26 22:15:51 jebba: thanks :) Feb 26 22:15:58 jebba: now I'll just bookmark that url :P Feb 26 22:16:16 Magon: yes, as recommended by OM core devs Feb 26 22:16:31 ... OE monotone from some revision ... Feb 26 22:16:54 rwhitby: ok..after i have this one working..mayby i will try to get head of everything..better for bugfixing end developement Feb 26 22:17:25 jebba: LOL, I can't touch the crosshairs :P Feb 26 22:17:30 Magon: if you want head of everything, just build from OE head without any openmoko svn stuff - koen has that working. Feb 26 22:18:01 koen does the "OE for everything" build, and I do the "replicate what OM core devs are using" build. Feb 26 22:18:04 rwhitby: but i probably need openmoko stuff Feb 26 22:18:14 Magon: koen has merged it all Feb 26 22:18:14 <_muk_> NOTE: fetch http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/js/js-1.5.tar.gz Feb 26 22:18:16 <_muk_> 23:47:07 ERROR 404: Not Found. Feb 26 22:18:26 whole openmoko is in OE? Feb 26 22:18:35 Magon: I believe so. Feb 26 22:18:42 will try Feb 26 22:19:01 if he keeps it sync..i can build just OE head Feb 26 22:19:08 <_muk_> Anyone else seeing this? Feb 26 22:19:34 but first..keep night build of mokofile just like it is ...so i can have at least anything working Feb 26 22:19:42 yep, but there is no guarantee you are building what the OM core devs are building then, so be careful with bug reports (99% should be relevant, be careful of the 1%) Feb 26 22:19:55 (if you use OE head for everything) Feb 26 22:19:56 <_muk_> it seems like there is only js-1.60.tar.gz Feb 26 22:20:08 rwhitby: that is my point..what are bugreports relevant to? Feb 26 22:20:12 _muk_: make setup should have downloaded that for you Feb 26 22:20:23 <_muk_> hm... Feb 26 22:20:38 i want to build anything where developement will be posible and relevant and relevant bugreports Feb 26 22:20:51 Magon: well, I have taken the position that we should replicate what the core OM devs are building, and report bugs against that, so as not to cause them to waste time looking at bugs that they can't replicate. Feb 26 22:20:53 <_muk_> runned it just before make openmoko-devel-image Feb 26 22:20:54 mstly developement is relevant just against head Feb 26 22:21:16 rwhitby: ok.. Feb 26 22:21:23 koen has taken the (equally valid) position of getting everything in OE head as soon as possible. Feb 26 22:21:24 <_muk_> make openmoko-devel-image tries to fetch version 1.5, but there seems to be only 1.6 available on ftp.mozilla.org Feb 26 22:21:38 the two positions should merge into one at some point in the future. Feb 26 22:22:02 LuitvD, re: crosshairs, read the README ;) Feb 26 22:22:31 jebba: thanks again :) Feb 26 22:23:07 _muk_, see the HOWTO Build page or whatever under "fixes' Feb 26 22:23:59 _muk_, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch#OpenEmbedded_build:_fixes Feb 26 22:24:13 to prevent uboot from building..make setup-patches, uncoment line, and make setup-patches..or what to propagate it? Feb 26 22:25:06 <_muk_> jebba: Thanx, didn't realize there was fixes for the mokomakefile... Feb 26 22:25:17 jebba: do you know of a workaround to show the cursor? Feb 26 22:25:49 <_muk_> hm... Feb 26 22:25:52 <_muk_> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb Feb 26 22:25:56 _muk_, ah, i think mokomakefile fixes those issues though. You do `make setup` ? Feb 26 22:26:03 <_muk_> when running make update Feb 26 22:26:18 <_muk_> well did it a couple of hours ago Feb 26 22:26:42 <_muk_> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb Feb 26 22:26:47 LuitvD, uh, that README is really short. And one thing it addresses is showing the cursor... Feb 26 22:27:10 _muk_: sounds like you are pulling from svn and OE tries to apply an outdated patch Feb 26 22:27:26 _muk_, not sure about the patch, usually you can just ctrl-d and keep going (depends where you saw it i guess) Feb 26 22:27:33 jebba: is it? :| Feb 26 22:27:42 jebba: need to clean my glasses I guess Feb 26 22:27:47 <_muk_> philippe: I have only followed the instructions on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Feb 26 22:27:54 To see the cursor, change /etc/matchbox/session SHOWCURSOR="yes" Feb 26 22:27:58 rwhitby: how to propagate the change in patches/openmoko-HEAD/series? Feb 26 22:27:59 <_muk_> philippe: and then I ran make update Feb 26 22:28:06 jebba: damn, you're right... :S Feb 26 22:28:18 jebba: my eyes must be really tired... Feb 26 22:28:23 heh.. np Feb 26 22:28:32 jebba: sorry to have bothered you (again) :P Feb 26 22:28:41 re Feb 26 22:29:40 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r19 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Touch the do_fetch stamps when downloading missing upstream sources. Feb 26 22:30:15 _muk_: try "make update setup" now - it will download the missing sources and touch the stamp files so OE doesn't try and download them again. Feb 26 22:30:36 Magon: make update-patches Feb 26 22:30:40 _muk_: there you go :-) Feb 26 22:30:59 thx Feb 26 22:31:02 <_muk_> rwhitby: thx, saw your commit. However I now have another problem with a patch that doesn't apply Feb 26 22:32:10 _muk_: either your openmoko svn or your mokomakefile patches are out of date. Feb 26 22:32:16 make update *should* fix that Feb 26 22:32:34 try it now, and pastebin the whole log if it does not Feb 26 22:34:07 counter Feb 26 22:34:07 P0: a week, 2 days 12:51:20 (0.536 - 9.536 days); P1: 23.536 - 33.536; P2: 186.536 - 216.536 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (409) Feb 26 22:36:05 rwhitby, while you're at it (from mokomakefile wiki talk page): "why MokoMake don't resume OE.mtn.bz2 download? why it remove old file and start downloading from beginning?" wget -c p'haps... Feb 26 22:36:10 what does patch prefered versions? Feb 26 22:36:29 jebba: nod Feb 26 22:40:08 Magon: don't understand your question Feb 26 22:40:26 <_muk_> rwhitby: Hm, downloaded mokomakefile today... Feb 26 22:40:27 openmoko/patches/preferred-openmoko-versions.patch Feb 26 22:40:44 why it is there..you suggested to use it in order not to uboot build Feb 26 22:40:54 <_muk_> rwhitby: started a whole new build today Feb 26 22:41:10 _muk_: i did that second time today Feb 26 22:41:57 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r20 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added -c to wget calls, and fix touching of stamp files Feb 26 22:42:18 <_muk_> Magon: strange... I just don't want to start from scratch again. Have waited to many hours already ;-) Feb 26 22:42:37 Magon: it's there so people can choose to not honor "svnnow" Feb 26 22:42:40 _muk_: me the same Feb 26 22:42:52 without is is does now ? Feb 26 22:43:22 it rebuilds all openmoko-* packages (including kernel and uboot) every time you build Feb 26 22:43:25 so to disable constant uboot build just site.patch is needed or any other? Feb 26 22:43:37 * mjr watched the FOSdem thingy Feb 26 22:43:43 ok..understand now Feb 26 22:43:44 Magon: the two patches that I told you Feb 26 22:44:11 and what it will take if i patch it..first time now and that the version i have? Feb 26 22:44:39 Applying patch patches/preferred-openmoko-versions.patch Feb 26 22:44:39 patching file trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc Feb 26 22:44:39 Hunk #1 FAILED at 6. Feb 26 22:44:39 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc Feb 26 22:45:01 ah, I guess the devs have modified that file since I last used that patch. Feb 26 22:45:11 you should be able to use quilt to refresh it Feb 26 22:45:46 how to use quilt..i have not used that so far :-( Feb 26 22:45:55 so.. what's that "other thing that everyone asks" ? Feb 26 22:47:40 my guess is it starts with "w", but I shan't be holding my breath since he was scared of saying it ;P Feb 26 22:48:15 mjr: =D Feb 26 22:49:02 what command of quilt to use? fold? Feb 26 22:50:00 mjr: well, that would fit "that everyone asks about", but how can they do that!? Feb 26 22:50:35 aevin, it does seem a bit quick to manage Feb 26 22:51:00 AIUI - bluetooth is on USB Feb 26 22:51:14 mjr: if they've planned this all along, making "room" to add it later, then it might be possible.. but. Feb 26 22:51:18 if they found a bt + wifi usb chip Feb 26 22:52:11 Or a SDIO card, even. Feb 26 22:52:54 and besides, it's smart to have an initial device without too much fancy hardware to make it cheap and increase the availability among hackers/developers to create the main software (application). Feb 26 22:53:10 and expand/add hardware/features later. Feb 26 22:54:06 SpeedEvil: a compo RF chip sounds likely. Feb 26 22:56:35 will have to wait and see :) Feb 26 22:56:49 s/will/we\'ll/ Feb 26 22:56:50 aevin meant: we\'ll have to wait and see :) Feb 26 22:56:54 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r21 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (preferred-openmoko-versions.patch series): Refreshed the svnnow patch Feb 26 22:59:06 lol, by building for qemuarm you're essentially building for ARM926 right? Feb 26 22:59:33 <_muk_> rwhitby: I just started with a clean directory and did the following: 1: wget http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/Makefile 2: make setup Feb 26 22:59:56 <_muk_> rwhitby: make setup fails when: Applying patch linux-gta01.patch Feb 26 23:00:07 <_muk_> patching file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb Feb 26 23:00:07 <_muk_> Hunk #1 FAILED at 93. Feb 26 23:00:07 <_muk_> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb Feb 26 23:00:47 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r22 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openmoko-dates.patch sjf2410-linux-native.patch): Removed old patches that have been applied upstream. Feb 26 23:02:27 _muk_: the makefile on the website was out of date with the one in the svn repo - I've pushed the latest, please "make update-makefile ; make update" Feb 26 23:03:45 openmoko: 03laforge * r1140 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: Feb 26 23:03:45 openmoko: * be more 'aggressive' in trying to obtain the interface name Feb 26 23:03:45 openmoko: * use quotes around interface name Feb 26 23:03:45 openmoko: * fprintf needs 'stderr', whereas printf doesn't ;) Feb 26 23:04:40 <_muk_> rwhitby: Same result, Do I need to restart from a clean directory tree again, or should the make update-makefile and make update do it? make update seems to fail with the same error as before Feb 26 23:05:35 is the svn revert command working? Feb 26 23:05:56 (it should remove all patches, svn revert, then update the patches from svn, then apply the patches) Feb 26 23:06:04 openmoko: 03laforge * r1141 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: * add support for putting NAND partition names into USB DFU altinterface string descriptors Feb 26 23:08:13 <_muk_> rwhitby: svn revert in oe/packages? Feb 26 23:10:23 _muk_: the svn revert command that the mokomakefile runs during "make setup-patches" Feb 26 23:10:52 <_muk_> rwhitby: How can I tell if it works or not? Feb 26 23:11:09 you could pastebin a complete log like I asked before .... Feb 26 23:11:16 <_muk_> Currently re running make update, but this time it takes a very long time to run: ( cd patches ; svn update ) Feb 26 23:11:32 if I buy a neo now, will i be able to upgrade it completely to the september model then? Feb 26 23:11:32 <_muk_> rwhitby: missed that Feb 26 23:11:58 so doing overnight build of x86 just by mokomakefile...will see at morning, gn Feb 26 23:12:05 hardware the same etc.? Feb 26 23:12:13 gn Feb 26 23:12:18 and OE is simply different Feb 26 23:12:22 <_muk_> I think I have to sleep now. The kids have a fever and doesn't sleep that well :-( Feb 26 23:12:38 yeah, Bluetooth 2.0 dongle for 12 euro's :D Feb 26 23:12:40 edistar: I doubt it will be exactly the same. especially if there are any hardware bugs. Feb 26 23:13:23 very useful for a FIC neo1973 :) Feb 26 23:13:41 ok... so actually you would have to buy twice to have an up-to-date model? Feb 26 23:14:36 openmoko: 03laforge * r1142 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-neo1973-defaultenv.patch): * update our compiled-in environment to a somewhat saner default Feb 26 23:14:44 yes (Sean mentioned that he'll arrange a discount for p1 buyers though if they (meaning FIC) "come up with something cool" in the hw upgrade front) Feb 26 23:14:58 thx Feb 26 23:15:19 does sean ever hang around on this channel? Feb 26 23:15:24 :) Feb 26 23:15:35 LuitvD - I saw him once. Feb 26 23:15:37 I expect sean is much to busy to be wasting time here :-) Feb 26 23:15:37 * mjr will be buying anyways, but didn't expect a lot of the changes that are now talked about Feb 26 23:15:55 ok Feb 26 23:16:00 then, I'm gonna buy the p2 model anyway to have one for me and one for SO Feb 26 23:16:02 Elrond: okay :) I haven't, that's why I asked :) Feb 26 23:16:13 yeah, haven't seen Sean here Feb 26 23:16:24 either Feb 26 23:16:28 LuitvD - But I don't expect him here. Feb 26 23:16:46 fred? Feb 26 23:17:15 I might even buy a P1 device if I get the e2881 for free... :) Feb 26 23:17:29 barnie? Feb 26 23:17:32 if I'll have to buy an e2881, I won't buy a neo I guess... Feb 26 23:17:45 hardware is final now then? Feb 26 23:17:49 sixfeet: john? Feb 26 23:17:55 edistar: hardware is never final Feb 26 23:17:59 ^^ Feb 26 23:18:00 heh Feb 26 23:18:16 meaning? Feb 26 23:18:35 i mean for this device.. Feb 26 23:18:38 * LuitvD still needs to try to get that bricked/broken/whatever HTC Wizard Feb 26 23:18:40 meaning as soon as you buy a Neo, a new one will be announced with better features. Same as any other consumer electronics. Feb 26 23:19:06 Okay, what is the GSM change in 1.5? Feb 26 23:19:10 yes, i meant this model Feb 26 23:19:22 if you're asking whether the feature set of the Neo 1973 is frozen, then the answer is yes. Feb 26 23:19:28 (as far as I know) Feb 26 23:19:37 thanks Feb 26 23:19:42 rwhitby: is that so? Feb 26 23:20:02 gn8 it's nearly 1 am here;) Feb 26 23:20:03 rwhitby: that FOSDEM talk made it appear that some hardware might be (will be?) changed? Feb 26 23:20:14 edistar: same here :) Feb 26 23:20:32 where are you? Feb 26 23:20:33 * LuitvD has to get up at 7:00 am tomorrow Feb 26 23:20:34 Yeah, will go to bed in 5min. ;) Feb 26 23:20:41 LuitvD: well, it's been announced, and they are supposed to be shipping me one this week, so one would assume that the feature set of the piece of hardware they are going to ship me is by definition frozen for this release of this device. Feb 26 23:21:05 rwhitby: yeah, that's true... Feb 26 23:21:24 but the "neo 1973" phase 1+ ... might have some extra functions, right? Feb 26 23:21:41 Don't people realise how long it takes to produce, test and qualify a hardware change? Feb 26 23:21:50 or will it's name change by then? will it be called neo1973 on mass-market? Feb 26 23:22:13 rwhitby: it's what sean told on the fosdem talk... AFAIK Feb 26 23:22:16 LuitvD: irrespective of what it is called, there will always be another device with better features just around the corner. Feb 26 23:22:27 rwhitby: true Feb 26 23:22:39 rwhitby: and it's always fun to have those :) Feb 26 23:22:46 LuitvD - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Current_events mentions a 1.5 thing. Feb 26 23:22:51 it will be called Neo1973 on the mass market as far as we know Feb 26 23:22:55 (can't watch the video here) Feb 26 23:23:28 Elrond: that's a quote from that video ;) Feb 26 23:24:04 that's exactly what I heard... and I hope the "and that other thing everyone asks" is WiFi :) Feb 26 23:24:07 Okay, so it's unclear, what this "GSM system" means. Feb 26 23:24:19 Elrond, it is indeed Feb 26 23:24:21 Elrond: read: EDGE Feb 26 23:24:24 one might speculate EDGE Feb 26 23:24:25 ;) Feb 26 23:24:29 yeah Feb 26 23:24:37 Ahh, okay. Feb 26 23:24:48 faster GSM system = newer protocol then GSM actually... which is EDGE Feb 26 23:24:48 The "other thing" is probably wifi or camera. Feb 26 23:25:01 (because GPRS is already featured) Feb 26 23:25:07 Right. Feb 26 23:25:12 Elrond: I don't think it'll be a camera... Feb 26 23:25:20 Elrond: I sure hope it isn't :P Feb 26 23:25:26 I really hope it's WiFi Feb 26 23:25:59 I suspect they're planning for wifi but don't want to say it yet because of uncertainties in everything getting screwed up Feb 26 23:26:02 LuitvD: Its gotta be wifi. Every one was/is bitching about missing wifi Feb 26 23:26:03 Then I might even wait for P1+, and buy a P1+ for my birthday :) Feb 26 23:26:11 I don't want a cam on my handy. I already carry a 0.5kg real camera around, when and if I want to take useful pics. ;) Feb 26 23:26:19 * mjr wasn't bitching Feb 26 23:26:22 lol Feb 26 23:26:29 mjr: oh yes you were ;) Feb 26 23:26:49 was not Feb 26 23:26:50 Elrond: true :) same here Feb 26 23:26:58 I wasn't bitching either. :) Feb 26 23:27:06 * LuitvD aint a bitch either Feb 26 23:27:07 I don't even want edge. Feb 26 23:27:11 I _was_ whining a bit about BT for about one message in the distant past, though Feb 26 23:27:16 video runs in flash9 Feb 26 23:27:27 mjr: why? Feb 26 23:27:56 LuitvD, umm, for local wireless connectivity? :] Feb 26 23:28:08 lol Feb 26 23:28:16 mjr: bluetooth is cool :) Feb 26 23:28:22 Okay, I admit: I at least of exactly one wifi device at home already (ruter), but nothing I really care for. Feb 26 23:28:40 (and no BT device... maybe the phone of my dad has BT?...) Feb 26 23:28:50 * mjr doesn't really require edge, but if it'll come, I won't mind... Feb 26 23:28:53 * LuitvD just bought a bluetooth dongle (BT V2.0 Class II, range: 20m) for 12 euro's incl. shipping Feb 26 23:29:37 I've a 1.2 one ready, sufficient for most uses Feb 26 23:29:46 LuitvD - USB? How's the linux support for those? Feb 26 23:29:53 <_muk_> http://www.pastebin.ca/373768 Feb 26 23:29:59 Elrond, very good Feb 26 23:30:02 Elrond: I'll find out soon :) Feb 26 23:30:20 practically every dongle should work, though theoretically there may be exceptions Feb 26 23:30:37 haven't heard of one yet Feb 26 23:30:40 :P Feb 26 23:30:54 mjr - So it's usually "buy and be happy"?! Feb 26 23:30:55 mjr: yeah, nearly every BT dongle uses the same chip Feb 26 23:30:58 there's basically a limited set of bt chipsets in wide use which helps Feb 26 23:31:04 *nod* Feb 26 23:31:10 lol Feb 26 23:31:31 * rwhitby finds the Linksys USBBT100 to be the best one he has found for range Feb 26 23:32:00 Hmm, fun. I'm still used to "buy and be screwed" or "investigate 2 months, buy and be 98% happy". Feb 26 23:32:03 rwhitby: what's the range of that? Feb 26 23:32:04 the cheap ones from ebay have very poor range, even though they say they are 100m Feb 26 23:32:22 LuitvD: it covers my house Feb 26 23:32:25 <_muk_> http://www.pastebin.ca/373774 Feb 26 23:32:42 rwhitby: the BT device in my "Livebox" covers my whole house too :) Feb 26 23:33:02 and it's actually a WiFi + BT PCMCIA card Feb 26 23:33:12 which does very wel Feb 26 23:33:25 Anyway. Good night people. Feb 26 23:33:27 WiFi and BT through the house Feb 26 23:33:40 _muk_: looks like something has changed upstream Feb 26 23:33:57 though the Firmware (linux based, they say... which I doubt...) crashes nearly every day Feb 26 23:34:11 'night Elrond Feb 26 23:34:26 <_muk_> rwhitby: Well, seems like it's time to take a nap :-) Feb 26 23:34:26 * mjr checked for reference that his mobile provider does EDGE Feb 26 23:34:39 <_muk_> rwhitby: thanks for the help so far Feb 26 23:34:42 (and my flat rate plan covers it as well as UTMS for future upgrades) Feb 26 23:35:03 mjr: lol, I can recieve HSDPA here already :) Feb 26 23:35:12 (though it has a 128k cap since I don't want to pay through my nose) Feb 26 23:35:30 yeah well, as said, I could get UTMS if I had a phone for it Feb 26 23:35:32 mjr: then what do you want to pay through? :P Feb 26 23:35:46 and my next one ain't gonna be UTMS either, you know ;P Feb 26 23:36:02 _muk_: pushing fix now Feb 26 23:36:07 but the one after that may or may not be EDGE, hence its relevance :) Feb 26 23:36:27 I could have HSDPA, If I'd have the money for a phone and a contract Feb 26 23:36:30 'scuse me, UMTS Feb 26 23:36:32 _muk_ (and others): note how well a full log pastebin speeds up the debug process ... Feb 26 23:36:53 :) Feb 26 23:37:03 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r23 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/linux-gta01.patch: Refreshed kernel build patch Feb 26 23:37:10 anyways... good night everybody Feb 26 23:37:25 _muk_: patches apply now Feb 27 00:27:28 ah, the quiet time of the day ... Feb 27 00:28:48 #openmoko is the channel with most traffic on my list Feb 27 00:28:57 by far Feb 27 00:34:45 openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1143 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-alignment.c moko-finger-tool-box.c): moko-finger-tool-box:use "gtk_widget_style_get" to reset padding because "gtk_alignment_get_padding" can't get padding from gtkrc. Feb 27 00:47:05 counter? Feb 27 00:47:06 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week, 2 days 10:38:21 (0.443 - 9.443 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-03-07); a month, 2 days (23.443 - 33.443 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 days (186.443 - 216.443 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (410) Feb 27 00:51:04 openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1144 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/beep/Makefile.am: this commit add the link to libz. Feb 27 01:34:32 <_muk_> The pastebin thing shouöd maybe be documented in the Wiki... Feb 27 01:48:06 <_muk_> Now added to the wiki Feb 27 02:53:04 foo? Feb 27 02:53:07 bar???? Feb 27 02:53:07 newbie_test7: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Feb 27 02:53:42 uups, forgot /msg aloril prefix Feb 27 02:55:27 last 2 nick count records: 263 2007-02-19; 270 2007-02-26 Feb 27 02:59:17 bar **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 27 02:59:56 2007