**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 02 03:00:00 2007 Mar 02 03:00:12 And eye-tracker. Mar 02 03:00:14 if we have asterisk running on it, then call management will be wonderful ! Mar 02 03:00:39 nslu2 does asterisk for up to 4 lines easily. Mar 02 03:00:40 well, i doubt it will come with asterisk, but it's certainly a possibilty. asterisk rocks. I'm surprised I don't see much discussion of it on the list. Mar 02 03:01:04 Dig through the archives. Mar 02 03:01:15 I did alaw to GSM and SIP to IAX2 conversion on calls on a linksys and it handled it no problem and the neo has more power for sure. Mar 02 03:01:17 It was discussed earliwer IIRC. Mar 02 03:01:32 SpeedEvil, ya, not that it's not mentioned at all, but i'd think it would be like every 5th email.... Mar 02 03:01:41 rwhitby: just for you, I gave the zImage a try. it booted, but panicked trying to mount the nand. I guess I must've done something to the NAND partitioning. Mar 02 03:01:44 jebba: i did that one on the http://www.neuros.com < --- a media player device, worked fine Mar 02 03:01:56 http://www.blagblagblag.org/BLASTERISK <-- info on my free/open asterisk server if you'd like to poke at it. Mar 02 03:02:02 (apologies for typos, I've got 5 second lag my shell server) Mar 02 03:02:29 neuros.com dumped source at me, but it may be cuz i have javascript disabled. Mar 02 03:02:44 It was discussed quite a lot earlier on, and I think everyone said all they had to say. Mar 02 03:02:57 i c Mar 02 03:03:08 cjb: booting the kernel is good enough for me. thanks! Mar 02 03:03:23 ya, no kidding. kernel boots, now you can rest. ;) Mar 02 03:05:48 also, I'm gonna have to start worrying about charging the battery soon. It doesn't seem to be happening when I just pull in a powered USB cable. Mar 02 03:06:07 (we have two phones, and the other phone's battery is dead/not charging.) Mar 02 03:06:40 Workaround. Mar 02 03:06:43 does minicom have a "save everything in scrollbadk" command? Mar 02 03:06:51 Do you have any nokia phone that takes a blc-5 Mar 02 03:07:04 because the bateries are compatible. Mar 02 03:07:12 and you can charge it in that. Mar 02 03:07:17 oh, I'll just ask minicom to dump core and get scrollback that way. Mar 02 03:07:42 heh Mar 02 03:08:44 Linux version 2.6.20.1-moko8 (cjb@fc6.laptop.org) (gcc version 4.1.1) #1 PREEMP7 Mar 02 03:08:44 CPU: ARM920T [41129200] revision 0 (ARMv4T), cr=c0003177 Mar 02 03:08:44 Machine: GTA01 Mar 02 03:09:24 cjb, if you could put up a whole dmesg somewhere (pastebin, your blog, whatever), that would rock. Mar 02 03:09:55 jebba: I'll wait until it's actually booting, I think. Mar 02 03:11:36 brainstorming: it would be "interesting" if the telephony part of the phone was all controlled by asterisk, and gsm via a chan_gsm or somesuch... Mar 02 03:12:24 instead of having to write gsm applications, it could just leverage everything in asterisk. Mar 02 03:13:02 Unfortunately the GSM has hardware limitations that you need to know of. Mar 02 03:13:12 I mean in the app. Mar 02 03:18:14 hey libervisco Mar 02 03:18:35 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1216 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): removed some gtk critical problem. Mar 02 03:24:11 is it possible that openmoko could run skype software? Mar 02 03:25:20 SpeedEvil, like the word "asterisk" appears zero times in the wiki (!) Mar 02 03:25:29 peeps: only if skype open source it or port it Mar 02 03:25:39 peeps, no, not unless the evilness @ skype ports it to openmoko Mar 02 03:25:58 And if there was bluetooth/wifi Mar 02 03:26:39 will openmoko allow closed source binaries to be installed, or is it open source only? Mar 02 03:26:39 peeps: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (this autotrigger for new nick and 2 question marks during 15min done only once) Mar 02 03:26:55 any biaries. Mar 02 03:26:56 peeps, well, you'll have full access to it so you can install anything you want. Mar 02 03:27:47 it's not 100% open source either. My understanding is the GSM and the GPS require some non-free software (correct me if i'm wrong) Mar 02 03:29:18 wrong on GSM Mar 02 03:29:50 well, doesn't it have a binary firmware or something? Is it all open? Hmm, perhaps i was mistaken. Mar 02 03:29:55 and the GPS shhould be reverseable. Mar 02 03:30:10 well, anything "should be reverseable"..... Mar 02 03:30:17 the GSM is a sealed modee,' Mar 02 03:30:23 modem. Mar 02 03:30:38 you talk to it via AT commands. Mar 02 03:31:18 the GPS is very simple hardware thoughm and all inputs are known. Mar 02 03:32:35 it requires binary firmware from what i understand. Mar 02 03:32:57 "Unfortunately we cannot provide many details on the GSM chipset due to very tight NDAs..." <-- from wiki Mar 02 03:34:07 The firmware does not run on the host CPU. Mar 02 03:34:28 It's just a serial modem. Mar 02 03:35:01 it's much less of an issue than people seem to make it Mar 02 03:35:14 Yeah. Mar 02 03:35:27 well, it runs on the device, no? Mar 02 03:35:35 Especially as it'd be illegal to sell in many places if it was reely reprogrammable. Mar 02 03:35:51 well, just sell it in free countries then. ;) Mar 02 03:35:55 the GSM bit is a modem. It has its own CPU and flash. Mar 02 03:36:13 Including the US, the UK, at least. (unable to sell) Mar 02 03:36:46 i'd rather have a free device than one that can be sold in the US ;) Mar 02 03:36:46 Dunno about .ar Mar 02 03:37:06 How is it not free? Mar 02 03:37:11 here you have to declare your fone when you cross customs (!) Mar 02 03:37:28 Is you r computer not free as you don't have to have the firmware for the keyboard controller? Mar 02 03:37:37 well, i mean in that it's a binary. Whether it's running on the CPU or some other chip on the device is a side issue. Mar 02 03:37:48 SpeedEvil, yes. Mar 02 03:38:01 this computer most definitely is not free (thinkpad t42 fwiw) Mar 02 03:38:47 Well, anyway, phone with freely alterable GSM radio is not happening, at least mass market. Mar 02 03:39:29 not yet. libgsmc ? Mar 02 03:39:35 * jebba hopes.... Mar 02 03:40:23 Not ever. Mar 02 03:40:30 the frankenphone project looks pretty interesting from the over-difficult long acronym SVHMPC Mar 02 03:40:52 In the UK for example, after the first user used it for criminal acts - changing the IMEI to forge another phone - Mar 02 03:41:35 And the police tell you that they have, and that you should stop selling them, then you are guilty of supplying hardwqare used for tampering with phone netoworks. Mar 02 03:41:47 If you continue to sell. Mar 02 03:41:53 well, free software geeks have reverse engineered many chips. I don't expect neo's chip to be reverse engineered this year. But if the whole thing (e.g. open cell phones in general) catches on like sean is hoping, it'll likely happen. They must be far more basic that nvidia (nouveau) for example. Mar 02 03:42:02 Absolutely no way any phone retailer would do htis. Mar 02 03:42:40 Open GSM phones mean that people will buy them to steal service. Mar 02 03:42:53 Absolutely guaranteed. Mar 02 03:43:06 yet people forge caller ID and stuff like that with PCs, yet that can still be used. Plus the chip used by neo is likely in a number of other fones. Mar 02 03:43:21 hmm, didn't think about that part of it. Mar 02 03:43:26 It's not caller ID. Mar 02 03:43:32 It's billing ingormation. Mar 02 03:43:33 i mean the part people could use it for free service. Mar 02 03:43:51 If you can alter the IMEI, and clone another phone, then the network cannot tell you from that phone. Mar 02 03:44:14 yes, like MAC addresses, i suppose (/me notes he's heard IMEI for the first time right now...) Mar 02 03:44:33 Yes. Mar 02 03:44:45 ein problem Mar 02 03:44:48 And you can do stuff like jamming the network. Mar 02 03:45:13 i guess we'll just have to open up the carrier side of the network too, so there's no one to charge us to make calls. Mar 02 03:45:32 Doesn't work. Mar 02 03:45:42 There is only a very finite amount of spectrum. Mar 02 03:45:45 * jebba also notes he's typing /around/ a cricket on my keyboard, that hangs around the fact that i occasionally knock him when i type a and q ;) Mar 02 03:45:58 s/the fact/despite the fact Mar 02 03:46:06 It has to be charged for, or it will be overrun. Mar 02 03:46:15 oh, but there's /lots/ of spectrum. It's a big sky. Mar 02 03:46:25 And you won't be abe to use the phone, as people with higher powered phones ovewhelm the bad. Mar 02 03:46:31 No, there is not lots of specturm. Mar 02 03:46:38 Not in usable bands. Mar 02 03:46:48 look how much we do with wifi, and it's a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeny slice of spectrum. Mar 02 03:47:17 It's a relatively large chunk. Mar 02 03:47:20 something like OLPC meshing + openmoko + voip, for example Mar 02 03:47:25 a hundred megahertz or so at 2.5G. Mar 02 03:47:36 Meshing doesn't work. Mar 02 03:47:44 For this app. Mar 02 03:48:12 The problem is that you can get interfered with by many sources that you can't recieve and decode, in the distance. Mar 02 03:48:14 yes, latency gets a bit large. But that already sucks for cell. Mar 02 03:48:18 This raises the noise floor. Mar 02 03:48:33 And means that you can't talk to your neighbout. Mar 02 03:48:46 It's not latency. Mar 02 03:49:04 seems it would be nice to get off the "carrier" angle of this whole thing though. Mar 02 03:49:28 Consider also that if your average hop length is a thousand nodes, then the bandwidth you get of f each node is .1% onominal. Mar 02 03:49:38 of nominal. Mar 02 03:49:46 And that's best case. Mar 02 03:49:59 In practice, you get choke points, where htere are only a few nodes. Mar 02 03:50:13 and all the traffic in and out of the region wants to go to them. Mar 02 03:50:33 It's not really simple. Mar 02 03:50:43 woah, a thousand nodes... Mar 02 03:51:07 A hundred meters per hop, that's only 100Km.l Mar 02 03:51:27 Or more accurately, 60Km or so, as they won't all be in a nice line. Mar 02 03:51:39 i'd think it would be much less than that. If you can sell phones that are like GSM+linksys and have them common, either you're hitting someone local more quickly or you're going LD via linksys/voip Mar 02 03:52:08 so if you need to leave your city, it hits the net/voip. If it's 10 blocks away, mesh Mar 02 03:52:10 Anyway - this is off topic and I'm tired. Mar 02 03:52:13 Night. Mar 02 03:52:24 ok. sorry. /me notes he knows he was talking a bit of nonsense... Mar 02 03:52:41 but sometimes a bit of nonsense is needed... Mar 02 03:58:19 what's the webbrowser in the openmoko qemu images? Mar 02 03:59:14 kmeyer, which image? Mar 02 03:59:29 hold on, lemme go find it again... the faq references it Mar 02 03:59:45 ah, ya. ok lemme look Mar 02 03:59:58 i did a different image that had dillo in it (and that could surf the net) Mar 02 03:59:59 ftp://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/BLAG/developers/jebba/openmoko/qemu-r1190 Mar 02 04:00:10 but that image using somehting "different" let me peek Mar 02 04:01:36 i couldn't get it to connect to anything though. And "alt-p" which accesses it's menu (e.g. P underscored in the menu) actually switches windows (how alt-tab usually does) in matchbox. So you can't specify a URL with it Mar 02 04:02:01 you can press alt+h and left left left from there Mar 02 04:02:17 anyone got hints on solving me getting error messages about MATCHBOX_PANEL ? Mar 02 04:02:47 pjz, what's the error.... Mar 02 04:03:15 can/will openmoko support java? Mar 02 04:03:38 didn't see it in the wiki Mar 02 04:03:49 jebba: trying to build the stuff to run on the PC, autoconf says checking for MATCHBOX_PANEL... configure: error: *** Required Matchbox Panel 2 >= 0.1 not installed *** Mar 02 04:04:01 peeps: there is effort to Mar 02 04:04:08 peeps, there's no reason it can't, but there has been little mention of it. The project is more in the gtk direction. Mar 02 04:04:41 jebba: on an ubuntu system with libmatchbox-dev and matchbox-panel and such all installed Mar 02 04:04:47 pjz, yes. i've heard that one before, so you're not alone there. Are you using mokomakefile? Mar 02 04:05:08 jebba: yeah, I used it to check out the source I think, but it also failed in some way I don't recollect now Mar 02 04:05:44 jebba: actualy, wait, for this I'm following the wiki page Mar 02 04:06:03 pjz, i suggest using mokomakefile as it has patches to fix some common errors people encounter. Mar 02 04:06:31 jebba: but it builds an image for the phone, right? it doesn't build apps to run on the local box Mar 02 04:06:58 jebba: I'm looking to get enough of an environment together that I can write a toy app for the phone Mar 02 04:07:15 pjz, correct, by default it does. Perhaps you can change file "build/conf/local.conf" to your target ARCH Mar 02 04:07:41 you just change MACHINE to "x86" in conf/local.conf to build for a PC Mar 02 04:07:42 pjz, the other thing is that you don't necessarily need to target the arm architecture. Mar 02 04:08:08 since it's basically gtk which you'll see on a debian/fc/gentoo box, you can just develop locally for i386 or whatever. Mar 02 04:09:15 jebba: well, right, but I wanted to look at the openmoko panel and such and try and get it running under Xoo/Xnest so I could get the screen size correct Mar 02 04:10:02 pjz: have you followed the wiki page for that? Mar 02 04:10:20 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo Mar 02 04:10:20 pjz, try Xephyr instead of Xoo. Xoo takes up way to much screen that doesn't help much. Mar 02 04:11:08 rwhitby: no, hadn't read that one yet; figured compiling was the first step; I'll try it. Mar 02 04:11:17 jebba: oh? I'll look at it Mar 02 04:11:20 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Xephyr Mar 02 04:11:40 pjz: yep, compiling is the first step on that page :-) Mar 02 04:12:53 what's all that `sudo` stuff for that Xoo page. That shouldn't be necessary... Mar 02 04:23:35 peeps: java unlikely bundled with P1 at end of this month, but likely you can install it later Mar 02 04:25:16 are most of you here developers? what parts of the system do you develop? Mar 02 04:27:27 jebba: yeah, that glove does look quite old Mar 02 04:28:10 peeps, we're mostly lurkers waiting for gear. ;) But there are a handful of people that are devs and have gear in their hands. Mar 02 04:28:58 best estimate on hardware is still end of the month? Mar 02 04:28:59 Is it possible to develop with just emus? Is the framework built yet? Mar 02 04:29:13 emus? Mar 02 04:29:21 counter Mar 02 04:29:22 P0: 2 days 06:55:44 (2.289 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.289 +-10.0 (see faq) (443) Mar 02 04:29:27 lol, emulators, VMs i mean Mar 02 04:29:27 peeps: it's standard linuxish framework, you can build from source on other hardware with 100% compat Mar 02 04:30:09 peeps, you can develop on your own i386 laptop or whatever. Just develop a gtk application for 480x640. That's the fastest way. Mar 02 04:30:24 peeps: easier to build for a local box with the hardware constraints in mind (screensize, etc) and then rebuild for the platform in the future Mar 02 04:30:40 they have some libraries you can snag as well (e.g. accessing gsm) Mar 02 04:31:15 i'm a developer, just doing jsp/struts for my day job, but never tried open source/linux programming Mar 02 04:31:35 i just found out about this project yesterday and am pretty excited Mar 02 04:31:49 hmm. http://fsf.org may give you a good intro. and see /topic about this particular project. Mar 02 04:33:26 actually, i did some "linux programming" in college, but nothing with a gui ;-) Mar 02 04:33:29 thanks for the info Mar 02 04:35:10 peeps: you can develop with plain Linux too, that's what I do Mar 02 04:36:12 i use an emulator poke XorA|gone Mar 02 04:36:22 i mean, i never wrote an app that had a gui (time for me to learn the GTK library) Mar 02 04:37:02 GTK is a bitch to learn Mar 02 04:37:03 have fun :P Mar 02 04:37:11 doh Mar 02 04:37:25 i'm curious if they plan to do pyGTK. OLPC is heading that way if i understand it correctly. That would lower the programming bar somewhat... Mar 02 04:38:11 I bet they do Mar 02 04:38:17 or rather: I bet someone does it Mar 02 04:38:32 python is already in OE, should be just install Mar 02 04:38:43 OE? Mar 02 04:38:47 (including gtk bindings) Mar 02 04:38:59 openembedded.org Mar 02 04:39:09 OD is OpenEmbedded Mar 02 04:39:15 er, OE not OD Mar 02 04:39:25 someday I'll learn to type Mar 02 04:39:31 I've gotten old and slow I think Mar 02 04:39:49 python-pygtk.bb and python-pygtk2.bb both exist in openembedded, so that pretty much answers it Mar 02 04:40:15 what does openembedded offer over a more conventional source? Mar 02 04:40:55 kmeyer, what do you mean? openmoko is built upon openembedded. openembedded is a free software project for embedded devices using the linux kernel. Mar 02 04:42:25 wow, mokomakefile is busted. looks like file-4.18.tar.gz isn't available anymore Mar 02 04:42:30 hmm.. compilation distribution/programs for all kinds of device/feature combinations Mar 02 04:43:00 jebba: err Mar 02 04:43:03 pjz, that wouldn't be in mokomakefile actually. It would be in openembedded/packages/file/file.bb Mar 02 04:43:06 what's .bb? Mar 02 04:43:06 :P Mar 02 04:43:13 it is a common issue (upstream moves .tar.gz) Mar 02 04:43:22 you need to crosscompile unless you happen to have similar hardware or compile in Neo1973 itself Mar 02 04:43:52 jebba: how do I get the .bb for the new version? Mar 02 04:44:02 jebba: or does it exist? or what? Mar 02 04:44:21 jebba: looking in the ftp dir, there's now v4.19 and v4.20 there Mar 02 04:44:25 kmeyer, .bb = bitbake now rtfm ;) http://bitbake.berlios.de/manual/ Mar 02 04:44:43 kk Mar 02 04:45:16 jebba: can I just copy the 4.18 one to a new name? Mar 02 04:45:44 pjz, in the .bb file you can s/1.01/1.02 or whatever and cross your fingers, sure. it's your system ;) Mar 02 04:46:08 jebba: or if I can manually find the right file, where do I put it? Mar 02 04:47:03 pjz, in whatever you defined as "sources" (e.g. ~moko/sources). You also need to `touch` a file in build/tmp/stamps/ for "fetch". That's how it keeps track of each completed step. Mar 02 04:47:06 jebba: oh, nm; I've got an old tree I can look at Mar 02 04:47:16 jebba: oh, thanks Mar 02 04:52:12 pjz: OE should have downloaded the tarball from downloads.openmoko.org/sources Mar 02 04:52:25 can you pastebin the log of the file package build? Mar 02 04:52:47 * rwhitby thinks that perhaps the sources mirror has not been set up properly ... Mar 02 04:54:30 rwhitby: yeah, I just copied sources/* over so it won't re-download it all Mar 02 04:54:49 * rwhitby adds openmoko-mirrors.bbclass Mar 02 04:55:15 jebba: btw, you don't have to touch the stamps/ file, it will recognize that the file exists Mar 02 05:00:55 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r36 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openmoko-mirrors.patch series): Added openmoko-mirrors.bbclass, and enable it's use in distro/include/openmoko.inc Mar 02 05:02:08 reported as http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=227 Mar 02 05:02:27 that should fix all occurances of future upstream file moves Mar 02 05:07:07 bundling 512MB micro SD means you can use more of NAND for apps Mar 02 05:09:32 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r37 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openmoko-dialer.patch series): Removed patches that are not required any more. Mar 02 05:10:20 anyone know where I can find information on razr v3 modding? Mar 02 05:10:46 motov3: perhaps in an IRC channel where that is on-topic ... Mar 02 05:11:10 (unless you're intending to port openmoko to it ...) Mar 02 05:11:17 rwhitby: i know nothing of this place, i was sent to "irc" from a friend.. im just trying to find a place :P Mar 02 05:11:32 motov3: this aint the place then Mar 02 05:11:33 where someone can offer me a tad of insight, nothing more Mar 02 05:11:49 well, I don't suppoe you know of such a place? Mar 02 05:11:49 motov3: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (this autotrigger for new nick and 2 question marks during 15min done only once) Mar 02 05:12:30 ~botsnack Mar 02 05:12:30 rwhitby: aw, gee Mar 02 05:12:39 alright Mar 02 05:12:40 thanks Mar 02 05:28:31 reading logs, it seems autofaq reply during intense discussion was quite appropriate Mar 02 05:30:20 your bot rocks ;) Mar 02 05:30:51 unfortunately another nick was known so it didn't trigger ;-) Mar 02 05:31:00 lol Mar 02 05:38:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Quintron Mar 02 06:29:22 is the openmoko the same as the neo1973? Mar 02 06:29:52 faq? Mar 02 06:29:52 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 02 06:29:57 that's the hardware it'll run on Mar 02 06:29:59 gbv22: Neo is the hardware. OpenMoko is a software project. Check the FAQs Mar 02 06:30:05 openmoko==software, neo1973==hardware Mar 02 06:31:11 oh ok...i understnd...but openmoko is designed to run with the neo1973 only? Mar 02 06:31:11 gbv22: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (this autotrigger for new nick and 2 question marks during 15min done only once) Mar 02 06:31:23 Seriously, read the FAQ Mar 02 06:31:26 ok Mar 02 06:31:31 Its amazingly informative! Mar 02 06:31:39 lol..k Mar 02 06:31:41 sorry Mar 02 06:31:47 NP =] Mar 02 06:32:30 * kmeyer waits patiently till september Mar 02 06:34:00 is it safe to assume that when it is mass marketed the price will fall below 350? Mar 02 06:34:16 gbv22: people have run at least part of openmoko at other devices too already Mar 02 06:34:31 oh ok Mar 02 06:34:33 I'm mainly concerned that I won't have a cellular carrier =/ Mar 02 06:34:34 gbv22: no idea about mass marked prices Mar 02 06:36:10 maybe i'm not in the right channel..but im asking anwyas....is there a way to use linux on a regular (say nokia) cellphone? Mar 02 06:36:15 :) Mar 02 06:36:44 not currently, but see N770, N800 Mar 02 06:36:53 so once openmoko works... how do you use it with a cellular carrier? Mar 02 06:37:35 libgsm can interpret AT commands Mar 02 06:37:47 So if your GSM network isn't locked out then it will talk on it Mar 02 06:38:01 It would be fun to create my own personal WAN here in Austin =P Mar 02 06:38:10 Find some other nerds who live downtown Mar 02 06:38:19 lol Mar 02 06:38:20 GSM network? Mar 02 06:38:21 :P Mar 02 06:38:45 kmeyer: yeah, about any GSM network should work with Neo1973, just insert your SIM Mar 02 06:38:55 I live 4 blocks from my job so I wouldn't need to cover a lot of area ;) Mar 02 06:38:59 what's GSM? Mar 02 06:39:18 kmeyer: see wikipedia Mar 02 06:39:19 I thought wifi wasn't included Elixir- Mar 02 06:39:41 ok Mar 02 06:39:44 It isn't. I meant GSM Mar 02 06:39:49 Even though its illegal >=/ Mar 02 06:40:11 i'm just curious...since we are able to run linux on ipods and other random hardware..why can't we do the same with a regular cellphone? what limits us? Mar 02 06:40:16 it's illegal to setup your own gsm net? Mar 02 06:40:32 weird hardware that varies a lot gbv22 Mar 02 06:40:39 ipods are all same (among a generation) Mar 02 06:40:56 Its illegal to broadcast in the licensed spectrum Mar 02 06:41:28 kmeyer: true...but if it can be done for ipods..why cant it be done for a particular phone model? Mar 02 06:41:49 what is really involved in getting linux to run on any hardware.. Mar 02 06:41:56 :) Mar 02 06:42:31 The vendors design the hardware to prevent people from putting on their own firmware/software Mar 02 06:42:45 oh...i c Mar 02 06:42:52 gbv22: see http://www.openezx.org/ (OpenMoko will run on those phones probably reasonably soon) Mar 02 06:42:56 The carriers have highly restrictive agreements that keeps the "riff-raff" off their networks Mar 02 06:43:05 Which is important because telecoms have the shittiest fucking networks Mar 02 06:43:12 haha Mar 02 06:43:19 Except for the IRS apparently ;) Mar 02 06:43:37 hey Elixir- I live in austin Mar 02 06:43:59 Represent Mar 02 06:44:05 hehe Mar 02 06:44:21 Where are you at? I'm 4 blocks from whole foods downtown Mar 02 06:44:30 U of T austin in the hizzouse! :P Mar 02 06:44:37 north austin, mopac & duval Mar 02 06:44:49 nice. I used to live up there Mar 02 06:44:59 * Elixir- wishes he could go to UT Mar 02 06:45:05 hehe, I used to work at that HEB Mar 02 06:45:32 UT isnt all tht great...:P Mar 02 06:45:39 Better than ACC Mar 02 06:45:44 lol Mar 02 06:45:50 hmm..true Mar 02 06:45:52 UW ftw Mar 02 06:46:06 * neclimdu1 wonders what gbv22 is comparing it too Mar 02 06:47:06 **gbv22 feels tht college is overrated..:P...but needs a job so he is pursuing a degree Mar 02 06:47:21 So will there be a carrier here in Austin that we can use the GSM part of the Neo1973 on? Mar 02 06:47:24 * gbv22 feels i mean Mar 02 06:47:30 gbv22: Ditto Mar 02 06:47:47 according to the wiki cingular can support it Mar 02 06:47:54 and tmobile Mar 02 06:48:14 * Elixir- likes his t-mobile Mar 02 06:48:24 Cingular towers have been getting overloaded a lot these days Mar 02 06:48:56 i get the worst reception in my apt Mar 02 06:49:04 happens with any carrier though :( Mar 02 06:49:53 you Austin guys working on developing some apps for openmoko? Mar 02 06:50:01 I had really good luck with ATT when I was in Austin. That too bad Cingular isn't keeping it up Mar 02 06:50:24 I want some yea Mar 02 06:50:34 But I want easy-skinning too Mar 02 06:51:36 Depending on if I can get t-mobile to support my GSM device then I will probably start writing stuff Mar 02 06:52:07 However I would work less on openmoko and more on a robust UI Mar 02 06:52:40 what do you mean? isn't the UI just another part of openmoko Mar 02 06:53:17 the way I understand it, openmoko is the equivalent of a distro? Mar 02 06:54:11 * gbv22 understands it the same way peeps does Mar 02 07:02:16 Yea Mar 02 07:02:25 I'd basically just want my own WM Mar 02 07:02:49 I don't like the "standard" PDA interface Mar 02 07:32:31 Elixir-: define 'own' Mar 02 07:41:30 yo morning! Mar 02 07:41:36 (changed so that faq link triggers on *first* question if just asked during first 15 min and only once for that nick) Mar 02 07:41:41 hi xkr47 Mar 02 07:57:56 * CM adds "Q: Does it have Java?" to the FAQ Mar 02 08:00:50 i never understand people asking that question Mar 02 08:01:24 hmm.. maybe should have question "Q: Does OpenMoko run any other phone?" I think iPaq and some HTC are at least partial answers, but ..? Mar 02 08:03:50 aloril: Definitely, add that. :) Mar 02 08:07:54 java's already in the faq Mar 02 08:15:03 kmeyer: yeah, it was just added ;-) Mar 02 08:15:35 I meant before 20 minutes ago Mar 02 08:15:41 I saw it somewhere.. Mar 02 08:17:18 kmeyer: I searched for it in the wiki Mar 02 08:17:39 kmeyer: But just remove my entry if you find a duplicate Mar 02 08:17:49 nah Mar 02 08:17:51 too much work Mar 02 08:17:54 :P Mar 02 08:18:28 * aloril doesn't find duplicate (also added above discussed Q with references (also PC mentioned)) Mar 02 08:19:56 phase0 situation is interesting.. Mar 02 08:19:58 counter Mar 02 08:19:59 P0: 2 days 03:05:05 (2.129 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.129 +-10.0 (see faq) (444) Mar 02 08:20:26 aloril: update counter - phase0 phones can be sent next monday Mar 02 08:21:07 can or will ?-) Mar 02 08:21:27 * xkr47 thinks monday is within 2.129 +- 2.0 Mar 02 08:21:41 (sorry) Mar 02 08:21:57 I hope mine was sent today and arrives monday :-) Mar 02 08:22:04 xkr47: depend on phase0 dev choose Mar 02 08:22:44 openmoko should be sold on play.com, smooth delivery :) Mar 02 08:27:08 hrw: counter is assuming that, though problem is what timezone? ;-) Mar 02 08:27:27 * xkr47 calls that a "minor problem" Mar 02 08:27:28 :) Mar 02 08:27:32 lower limit is when 2007-03-03 starts on earth (+2h) Mar 02 08:27:46 upper limit is when 2007-03-05 ends on earth Mar 02 08:28:55 anyway, it will in 3h hit lower limit and start to move ETA forward (and decrease uncertainty) ;-) Mar 02 08:29:04 lol Mar 02 08:29:11 (and counter then moves at half speed) Mar 02 08:29:19 4-6 weeks for next one Mar 02 08:29:41 hrw: up to 6 weeks? Mar 02 08:29:55 early April -> during first 2 weeks of April? Mar 02 08:31:10 producing this modified hardware will take us Mar 02 08:31:12 another four to six weeks Mar 02 08:31:25 ok, I'll update that Mar 02 08:31:48 phase0 version has two serious bugs Mar 02 08:31:53 I'll decrease P0 uncertainty too Mar 02 08:32:18 so all developers are asked do they want phase0 phone or want to wait for free one from phase1 Mar 02 08:35:32 hrw: but all devs who opt for phase zero also get a phase one Mar 02 08:35:51 XorA: yes Mar 02 08:36:02 XorA: thats what I chosen Mar 02 08:36:11 same here, that way I can get started Mar 02 08:36:43 * pH5 wonders if any of the phase 0 devs chose option 2) Mar 02 08:37:12 pH5: depends on your customs, some people will get reamed for VAT of 350$ plus a nasty fee Mar 02 08:37:23 ouch Mar 02 08:37:36 here customs take 22% VAT Mar 02 08:37:47 but as company I can get that VAT back Mar 02 08:37:59 company producing under £10k, no? Mar 02 08:38:32 kmeyer: Poland has other limits iirc Mar 02 08:38:48 oh, I was thinking england Mar 02 08:41:56 luckily Australia has no customs or duty until the value hits AUD$1K Mar 02 08:42:16 So I'll gladly take all the Phase-1 phones that the other devs don't want :-) Mar 02 08:42:18 rwhitby: and is closer to Taiwan Mar 02 08:42:29 hrw: that's why I'm hoping for a Monday delivery Mar 02 08:42:41 rwhitby: monday->monday? Mar 02 08:43:08 hrw: I gave details over 24 hours ago, I'm hoping it got shipped in those 24 hours, and will arrive monday :-) Mar 02 08:43:18 rwhitby: ah.. Mar 02 08:43:22 and USD$350 isn't AUD$1k? :P Mar 02 08:43:28 rwhitby: here this mail hit spambox Mar 02 08:43:32 ~change 350 usd to aud Mar 02 08:43:38 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 446.829 Australia Dollar (AUD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Mar 02 08:43:50 kidding Mar 02 08:43:51 cool Mar 02 08:44:03 ~change 350 usd to inr Mar 02 08:44:06 one day I will have $350 Mar 02 08:44:08 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 15,497.03 Rupee (INR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Mar 02 08:44:11 rupis? Mar 02 08:44:12 heh Mar 02 08:44:17 rupee, close enough Mar 02 08:44:32 ~change 350 usd to won Mar 02 08:44:34 openmoko: 03laforge * r1217 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/s3c_mci.patch: * re-add missing Makefile hunk to actually build the driver Mar 02 08:44:38 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 330,512.76 Won (KRW) (from http://www.xe.com/) Mar 02 08:44:41 yes, indian average spending for phone is 25K Rupees Mar 02 08:45:05 *mobile phone Mar 02 08:45:11 ok Mar 02 08:45:32 is there is any change for descrease in price startegy ? Mar 02 08:45:37 *chance Mar 02 08:45:41 *decrease Mar 02 08:45:51 for the openmoko Mar 02 08:46:08 not till mass production Mar 02 08:46:46 night folks Mar 02 08:47:03 i c Mar 02 08:52:32 anyone guide me is there is a fc6 binaries of toolchain for openmoko ? Mar 02 08:53:00 *if Mar 02 08:53:03 good morning, mokoers! Mar 02 08:53:37 ~change 350 usd to birr Mar 02 08:53:43 sumasuma: have you read the wiki about that? Mar 02 08:53:43 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 3,121.04 Birr (ETB) (from http://www.xe.com/) Mar 02 08:54:11 sweet. it parsed it to the right currency :) Mar 02 08:54:15 rwhitby-treo: it said release files are under http://buildhost.openmoko.org/releases/ Mar 02 08:54:26 but could not reach it Mar 02 08:54:36 search for mokomakefile Mar 02 08:54:53 does moko have mokomake? :) Mar 02 08:55:16 no, just normal make and bitbake Mar 02 08:55:24 "moko clean; moko; moko install" :) Mar 02 08:55:59 alias make moko Mar 02 08:56:42 sumasuma: you build your own toolchain at the moment Mar 02 08:57:39 rwhitby-treo: looks the process is easier, i will give a try now Mar 02 08:57:56 rwhitby-treo: thanks for the instructions Mar 02 09:05:33 counter Mar 02 09:05:33 P0: 3 days 02:19:31 (3.097 +-1.0 days); P1: 35.097 +-10.0 (see faq) (445) Mar 02 10:16:24 good morning Mar 02 10:36:08 hi florian Mar 02 10:51:54 hi Mar 02 10:52:08 has the mmc driver been tested? Mar 02 10:52:09 balrog-kun: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 02 10:52:59 aloril: nice autotrigger Mar 02 10:53:27 balrog-kun: As far as I know they work with the microSD cards already. So yes. Mar 02 10:53:28 There is no way without extra hardware (cable mod) to fit an mmc. Mar 02 10:54:10 ah, ok. balrog-kun you mean mean microSD or really MMC? Mar 02 10:54:45 it's micro-sd in thre neo. Mar 02 10:54:46 stefan_schmidt: i mean the Linux mmc driver, shouldn't it drive the microSD? Mar 02 10:55:01 yes, it works. Mar 02 10:55:10 there is an SD driver frtom tomtom IIRC Mar 02 10:55:18 i'm seeing write errors with both an own kernel and a stock one from buildhost.openmoko.com Mar 02 10:55:30 reading is fine Mar 02 10:55:42 balrog-kun: mircroSD is *real* SD. I'm not aware of mmc card in micro format. Mar 02 10:56:02 Oh - hardware. Mar 02 10:56:16 stefan_schmidt: mmc is the name of the subsystem in Linux, it drives all the different types of cards Mar 02 10:56:34 I see no erratas on SD performance on the wiki. Mar 02 10:56:45 And nobody else has mentioned it. Mar 02 10:56:50 i was just wondering if anyone has really tried it Mar 02 10:56:50 balrog-kun: So if you just refer to the subsystem name, then the answer is yes, too. Mar 02 10:56:55 Perhaps you've got a bad SD? Mar 02 10:57:03 hopefully. Mar 02 10:57:58 it doesn't look like a card issue, i tried debugging the kernel and there indeed is one place where it gets values that i think are wrong Mar 02 10:59:52 Have you a spare micro-sd to try it with? Though it may be unlikely to work. Mar 02 11:01:07 well, this is inside an emulator, it's an emulated card that conforms to the specs (i think, because it works with different machines) Mar 02 11:01:10 balrog-kun: On my X40 all cards I tried worked great. Mar 02 11:01:18 balrog-kun: What device are you using? Mar 02 11:01:21 oh ok Mar 02 11:01:34 i don't have the real device, only an emulator Mar 02 11:01:39 Oh. Mar 02 11:01:50 Well, real micro-sd works. Mar 02 11:01:56 At least somewhet. Mar 02 11:02:07 Are these consistent or occasional errors? Mar 02 11:02:34 have you tried booting something from the card by any chance? Mar 02 11:02:47 they're consistent, probably the emulated mmc host Mar 02 11:02:51 's fault Mar 02 11:22:02 openmoko: 03laforge * r1218 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/s3c_mci.patch: * merge s3cmci driver with 2.6.20 dma and mmc api changes Mar 02 11:25:34 counter Mar 02 11:25:34 P0: 2 days 23:59:29 (3.000 +-1.0 days); P1: 35.000 +-10.0 (see faq) (446) Mar 02 11:25:38 hello Mar 02 11:26:47 Hello. Mar 02 11:27:37 still have to catch up logs, but I think page in wiki about microSD cards said that there are currently problems in some non Sandisk cards (page refered frm hardware page) Mar 02 11:28:56 Well - it's emulator anyway. Mar 02 11:29:06 So it's not a 'real' SD that's having problems. Mar 02 11:35:55 yeah, but that wiki page was/is about real cards on Neo1973 (I think it was u-boot related, but might remember wrong) Mar 02 11:39:03 the issue is that the driver wants to write more data with one command than it really has in the buffer at a given moment, so it thinks that some data had not been written after the hw finishes writing the contents of the buffer, that's how i'm interpreting it but it may be my wrong understanding of the specs Mar 02 11:39:21 the emulator attempts to be 1:1 with the hardware and real SD cards Mar 02 11:39:52 i haven't tried the u-boot's mmc driver, but i think it does only reading Mar 02 12:17:13 alphaone, stefan_schmidt: http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/a780/ Mar 02 12:17:28 todays images should have the opentapi tweaks Mar 02 12:17:49 balrog-kun: olali ;] Mar 02 12:20:26 koen: thanks Mar 02 12:20:42 although I did use the wrong channel :) Mar 02 12:20:55 too many #open Mar 02 12:21:09 heh Mar 02 12:28:54 Hi guys, I'm working in a french high school, and we are looking for good plateform to work on phone. I think OpenMoko looks great for ours needs (give some works to the students around a fancy phone). I'm wondering if we can obtain a test plateform ? Mar 02 12:28:54 Jkx: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 02 12:30:23 Jkx: You should contact the coreteam about this question. Moment, I search you the email address Mar 02 12:30:38 Jkx: coreteam@openmoko.org Mar 02 12:30:56 i'd think waiting for the phase 1 would be wise, or even the consumer model Mar 02 12:31:04 Jkx: But please be patient. They have a load of 300% atm Mar 02 12:31:43 Jkx, guaqua: Indeed. You can wait until end of the month and just buy one of them for testing. Mar 02 12:32:14 i don't think i'll be getting one before the consumer model Mar 02 12:32:27 that doesn't prevent me from participating, though :) Mar 02 12:33:02 stefan_schmidt: ok that's look fine. Perhaps my students can work with the emulator until march Mar 02 12:33:51 I guess most of you are working with the emulator (qemu or xos) ? Mar 02 12:35:07 Jkx: For GUI only stuff I would work with x86 build and xoo Mar 02 12:35:16 * stefan_schmidt -> food Mar 02 12:37:29 and that faq link and links from it answer many questions Mar 02 12:38:33 ok, let's give it a try. I will ask my students to works with qemu, and hope to buy a phone on March to do some real-life test Mar 02 12:54:48 koen: Thanks Mar 02 12:59:34 who has commit rights to openembedded? Mar 02 13:00:52 pjz: the question is: Who can push to a certain server Mar 02 13:01:17 zecke: ah, right, monotone, I forgot Mar 02 13:01:55 zecke: anyway, basically: bug in the js package, it doesn't detect that the archive is already in sources/, it tries to download it again anyway Mar 02 13:02:58 zecke: workaround is, of course, to touch build/tmp/stamps/target-arch/js-1.5-r0.do_fetch Mar 02 13:04:11 pjz: well, detecting that the source has been fetched is not a property of a package but the system (e.g. bitbake) Mar 02 13:04:16 pjz: so why is it failing for js? Mar 02 13:04:37 pjz: it can only fail, if fetching fails (at least this is what I believe) Mar 02 13:04:41 zecke: no idea, but after I touched the do_fetch, the rest of it worked Mar 02 13:05:00 zecke: well, right, fetching it failed becasue it had moved from the place it was trying to fetch it Mar 02 13:05:16 zecke: but I had previously downloaded it and put a copy of what was downloaded into sources/ Mar 02 13:05:42 pjz: so you propose to change the source uri, as it is currently wrong? Mar 02 13:06:10 zecke: no; I propose to make it not try and fetch the archive if it already exists in sources/ locally Mar 02 13:06:32 zecke: which is what the rest of the packages already do Mar 02 13:07:00 pjz: sorry, I think if fetching fails, the reason of this failure should be fixed Mar 02 13:07:20 zecke: well, sure, that too Mar 02 13:07:37 zecke: but also it shouldn't try and refetch if the archive already exists locally Mar 02 13:07:54 pjz: if you fix the root cause, the other symptoms will go away as well Mar 02 13:08:06 zecke: but it's bad to force a refetch when it's not needed Mar 02 13:08:13 zecke: doubles the bandwidth Mar 02 13:12:40 hrm, now mtpaint is failing Mar 02 13:53:00 /topic Mar 02 13:57:30 counter Mar 02 13:57:30 P0: 2 days 21:27:33 (2.894 +-1.0 days); P1: 34.894 +-10.0 (see faq) (447) Mar 02 13:59:31 pjz seemed to be getting a transient failure on the mirror. Mar 02 13:59:48 with my finger on the trigger. i run dot slash configure. yo this package is big. but _my package_ is bigger Mar 02 13:59:48 :D Mar 02 14:00:02 Where fetching the file resulted in a copy of a HTML redirect to the same file. Mar 02 14:00:28 * holyduck hates fansubbers who makes him compile a new version of mplayer Mar 02 14:00:34 im bored Mar 02 14:00:53 holyduck: doesn't take all that long Mar 02 14:00:56 true Mar 02 14:00:59 its just annoying Mar 02 14:01:25 like one group purposly broke all mplayer versions before 1.0rc1 and also vlc Mar 02 14:01:41 holyduck: strange sub channels? Mar 02 14:01:58 more like 256 bits of random text at the end of lines scaled to 0 Mar 02 14:02:07 wich borked the old mplayer and vlc Mar 02 14:02:14 wierdos Mar 02 14:02:20 indeed Mar 02 14:15:54 mornin'. Mar 02 14:17:41 cjb: good morning Mar 02 14:21:44 anyone else having trouble building mtpaint? Mar 02 14:29:16 are the latest kernel images built without mmc support? Mar 02 14:40:29 hi Mar 02 14:41:13 * theholyduck wants one of those phones :) Mar 02 14:41:25 well im gonna wait till september Mar 02 14:42:06 theholyduck: I think Im gonna wait till september too... Cant wait :) Mar 02 14:42:44 i sorta wanted a greenphone. till i saw this Mar 02 14:42:58 well my birthday is in september i might get one then Mar 02 14:43:04 as in a present Mar 02 14:44:11 theholyduck: me too, specially since the neo1973 uses the same processor as our product line at work Mar 02 14:44:30 hi prpplague Mar 02 14:46:50 :O Mar 02 14:49:02 hrw: howdy Mar 02 14:49:08 hrw: whats cookin today? Mar 02 14:49:25 prpplague: some gstream stuff Mar 02 14:49:33 gstreamer Mar 02 14:49:51 ahh Mar 02 14:49:54 my ps/2 keyboard connected via ps/2 -> usb adapter reset from time to time Mar 02 14:51:34 i've seen all kinds of weird behavior with those adapters Mar 02 14:51:48 including not working at all and working perfectly Mar 02 14:55:55 hrw: there isn't any gstreamer 0.8 in OE anymore Mar 02 14:56:24 koen: I know. but is in .dreambox and tmbinc was talking about this branch Mar 02 14:56:32 koen: and .dreambox is OE too Mar 02 14:56:45 but he only use .10 Mar 02 14:56:48 uses* Mar 02 14:57:08 sure Mar 02 14:57:28 * koen heads home Mar 02 14:57:29 later all Mar 02 15:39:35 morning. Mar 02 15:57:42 openmoko: 03thomas * r1219 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ (14 files in 3 dirs): * Import of the Today application Mar 02 16:00:54 openmoko: 03werner * r1220 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/openocdcmd.pl: Mar 02 16:00:54 openmoko: openocdcmd.pl: ignore errors from closing the pipe, because telnet reports Mar 02 16:00:54 openmoko: remote close as an error Mar 02 16:01:16 yet another idea: when you get near your PC and its been a while (day for example) it automatically backups using bluetooth Mar 02 16:02:24 thats a great idea Mar 02 16:02:54 (backup==rsync, so should be pretty fast) Mar 02 16:03:34 hmm.. maybe there should be some revisions actually, so that it doesn't automatically backup faulty version over OK version ;-) Mar 02 16:03:35 rsync has saved me many times. Mar 02 16:04:21 ahh, I was thinking you were talking about phone config // settings, etc. you wana back up the entire phone? Mar 02 16:04:37 yes Mar 02 16:04:48 why limit? Mar 02 16:05:00 mkdir date, and be good to go. Mar 02 16:05:56 well, backing up 2GB every day without incremental stuff would consume a bit space Mar 02 16:06:51 *nods* Mar 02 16:07:26 rsync --archive / --exclude=/music Mar 02 16:07:30 should be quick enough Mar 02 16:07:52 heh Mar 02 16:08:05 or some method to do rsync so that backup responds to latest but previous version is saved is incremental diff Mar 02 16:08:19 rdiff-backup Mar 02 16:08:22 or just rsync with hardlinks Mar 02 16:08:22 (maybe keep full backup monthly or few times/year) Mar 02 16:08:28 (i dont trust rdiff-backup) Mar 02 16:11:16 bbl, gotta go make money to pay bills n stuff. Mar 02 16:11:29 <_llll_> there are plenty of solutions to this problem for general computers, i dont think the phone is any different Mar 02 16:12:21 _llll_: yup, that's to good point of it being just linux Mar 02 16:22:35 kid (<3 years) proof Neo would be nice Mar 02 16:24:09 especially if it was reasonably cheap: ten you would have unlimited amount of toys limited only by your imagination Mar 02 16:24:52 s/ten /then / Mar 02 16:24:53 aloril meant: especially if it was reasonably cheap: then you would have unlimited amount of toys limited only by your imagination Mar 02 16:26:02 aloril: http://www.elinux.org/wiki/PixterMultimedia Mar 02 16:26:10 aloril: runs linux very nicely Mar 02 16:34:00 prpplague: thanks, interesting (though seems to be >=4 years) Mar 02 16:36:40 hmm.. what about cube (with rounded edges) and 6 touch screens? possibilities.. Mar 02 16:36:49 :O Mar 02 16:37:05 that 1 phrase almost turned me on Mar 02 16:37:21 a phone in cube form? Mar 02 16:37:30 enough sturdy and good scratch proof coating so that you can let children of any age play with it Mar 02 16:37:44 <_llll_> why would you want children to play with a phone? Mar 02 16:37:50 loufoque: no, child toy Mar 02 16:38:13 loufoque: umm.. it can be anything, but software should be tuned to age of children playing with it Mar 02 16:38:23 it could be fun even for baby with suitable software Mar 02 16:38:55 aslong as it has apt im happy Mar 02 16:38:55 :P Mar 02 16:39:09 thedaniel: of course ;-) Mar 02 16:39:21 thedaniel? Mar 02 16:39:22 eh Mar 02 16:39:35 im guessing you typed the and auto completed Mar 02 16:39:35 theholyduck: and bluetooth, etc.. so you can update it while baby is playing with it Mar 02 16:39:37 and then failed Mar 02 16:39:42 yes Mar 02 16:39:55 shock proof too? Mar 02 16:40:01 yes Mar 02 16:40:08 could be interesting Mar 02 16:40:11 and expensive Mar 02 16:40:13 to build Mar 02 16:40:20 not just 1 but 6 touch screens? Mar 02 16:40:22 ;D Mar 02 16:40:32 whatever you need so that you can sell it <= 3 year olds Mar 02 16:40:40 ie.. enough sturdy so that they can't break it Mar 02 16:40:43 :) Mar 02 16:40:57 i got this old lappy wich is pretty much a tank Mar 02 16:40:57 just give a real computer to your kid Mar 02 16:41:05 its fallen 2-3 ms Mar 02 16:41:07 into asphalt Mar 02 16:41:10 still works Mar 02 16:41:12 teach him how to hack the kernel at 3 Mar 02 16:41:18 6 might be a bit extreme though, maybe just 2 (or 2 big ones and 4 smaller ones at sides) Mar 02 16:41:37 if it still runs when i get kids Mar 02 16:41:39 they gonna get it Mar 02 16:41:40 :P Mar 02 16:41:47 loufoque: umm.. how can baby play with real computer? Mar 02 16:42:28 i could use a computer since the age of 4 Mar 02 16:42:32 well use and use Mar 02 16:42:42 but atleast start up stuff and play games Mar 02 16:42:47 aloril: my dropping it on the floor etc Mar 02 16:42:57 by Mar 02 16:43:21 aloril: he could chat with other kids on myspace Mar 02 16:44:25 loufoque: "goo" "goo" ;-) Mar 02 16:46:23 hmm.. or several of those... add robots with touch screens, etc.. moving by themself, etc.. Mar 02 16:46:54 * aloril thinks open toy industry in future like open phones in future could be quite interesting Mar 02 16:47:28 :P Mar 02 16:47:43 i saw this package in the repository the other day Mar 02 16:47:44 2 sec Mar 02 16:47:50 it was this teach kids to make programs Mar 02 16:47:51 thingy Mar 02 16:49:29 Little Wizard Mar 02 16:49:31 thats what it called Mar 02 16:50:07 cu Mar 02 16:50:18 * theholyduck goes to install it see what its like Mar 02 16:51:14 here is one idea: how person/child could learn to play Go by just themselves: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Go_Teaching_Program Mar 02 16:54:38 <_llll_> is that implemented? Mar 02 16:55:48 engines are, GUI not, I hope to get some of GUI done before I get P1 Neo Mar 02 16:56:35 there are all kinds of engines from almost random to GNU Go level (UCT Monte carlo and GNU Go being strongest) Mar 02 16:56:48 and all historical GNU Go versions too Mar 02 16:57:10 well.. there are Go GUI's but none for gtk2+ only Mar 02 16:57:25 (except one unfinished one) Mar 02 16:58:37 <_llll_> looks pretty cool anyway Mar 02 17:00:36 aloril: cgoban is pretty nice Mar 02 17:01:00 What age do kids start learning go effectively? Mar 02 17:01:13 I have an almost-5 year old Mar 02 17:01:18 And he's definitely too young Mar 02 17:01:26 well i guess it depends on the kid too Mar 02 17:01:29 id say Mar 02 17:01:30 dneary: I think 4 year old can learn Mar 02 17:01:36 But I'm wondering if he mightn't be able to learn the rules between now & next year Mar 02 17:01:41 dneary: and with program like this, maybe 2-3 year old Mar 02 17:02:12 like i had learned how to fireup and use a dos computer by the age of 4 Mar 02 17:02:13 dneary: I think chikun was something like 4-5 dan at age of 6 Mar 02 17:02:28 so learning somthing Mar 02 17:02:33 is fully posible Mar 02 17:02:39 sheesh Mar 02 17:02:44 sure go Mar 02 17:02:46 is a bit harder Mar 02 17:02:48 than using a pc Mar 02 17:02:53 dneary: yeah, cgoban is option, its even more bare than gtk2+ though Mar 02 17:03:05 Some say that children get better at go quicker than adults, because they don't yet reason, they play by feeling Mar 02 17:04:23 theholyduck: realizing capturing is not that hard Mar 02 17:04:42 indeed Mar 02 17:04:51 theholyduck: going beyond that to actual beginner level is harder than learning chess rules Mar 02 17:05:03 but start early. even learning only a little is better than not learning anything i guess Mar 02 17:05:28 That does rather presume that learning Go is a useful goal. Mar 02 17:05:35 hm Mar 02 17:05:38 well i find it pointless Mar 02 17:05:40 and until person is at beginner level (roughly KGS 20k) (s)he is a bit boring, so machine would be quite suitable opponent to get to that level Mar 02 17:05:42 but thats just me Mar 02 17:05:59 (adult can get to KGS 20k level in maybe 10-30 games) Mar 02 17:06:54 SpeedEvil: learning to think is useful goal, could add programming, whatever later, Go is example of simple to start, but very deep complexity Mar 02 17:07:21 why not just start with like programing? Mar 02 17:07:31 little wizard is pretty simple Mar 02 17:07:34 i just checked it out Mar 02 17:07:45 even a little kid ought to be able to use it to a certain extent Mar 02 17:08:07 Go is fun when you gain levels ;-) Mar 02 17:08:19 whenever i wanna use my brain a bit Mar 02 17:08:31 i just go into political discusion mode with myself Mar 02 17:08:46 make a nazi. a commie, and a capitalist in my brain Mar 02 17:08:49 and have them argue Mar 02 17:08:59 or somthing like that Mar 02 17:09:13 hehe Mar 02 17:09:13 thats how i pass time. discuss with difrent me's Mar 02 17:09:39 my political viewpoint is usualy what annoys the person im talking with the most Mar 02 17:10:39 hm Mar 02 17:10:42 im boreed Mar 02 17:10:58 somone needs to get me a 100/10mbit line PRONTO Mar 02 17:12:43 openmoko: 03laforge * r1221 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta01-core.patch gta01-pcf50606.patch): Mar 02 17:12:43 openmoko: * move 'gta01-pm-gps' and 'gta01-pm-bt' to the pcf50606 driver, where Mar 02 17:12:43 openmoko: they can be put into the correct place in the device tree for suspend/resume Mar 02 17:12:43 openmoko: * declare them as static in that process Mar 02 17:28:10 yet another drooler ;-): http://www.oreillynet.com/etel/blog/2007/03/openmoko_1.html Mar 02 17:36:12 hehe i would buy the 6 screen phone Mar 02 17:36:17 for kids of any age, indeed Mar 02 17:36:39 Evening people. Mar 02 17:37:44 i wonder if all the neo drool will make the oceans rise, poor polynesians Mar 02 17:43:13 Is it me, or is openmoko.org slowish? Mar 02 17:48:53 Elrond: so you left Rivendell? Mar 02 17:50:02 come visit Moria Mar 02 17:50:31 loufoque - No. Rivendell got dsl. ;) Mar 02 17:52:55 i wish they'd let people preorder for phase 1 :/ Mar 02 17:53:46 :) Mar 02 17:53:52 parag0n - They don't even have the P0 phones ready- := Mar 02 17:54:25 werent they meant to ship 2 weeks ago? :] Mar 02 17:54:33 I can't even run openmoko on my robot ... :( Mar 02 17:58:03 counter Mar 02 17:58:03 P0: 2 days 17:26:58 (2.727 +-1.0 days); P1: 34.727 +-10.0 (see faq) (448) Mar 02 17:58:19 one month to go... Mar 02 18:01:29 with 6 screen phone you have unlimited amount of differently colored cases (includings ones that swap themself at 30fps) ;-) Mar 02 18:01:52 6 screen phone? Mar 02 18:01:52 small idea: pre ring alarm Mar 02 18:02:15 cube desktop switch, a step further Mar 02 18:02:26 *switcher Mar 02 18:03:10 Elrond: scroll back: touch screen in all 6 sides so that phone practically covered (scratch proof of course) Mar 02 18:03:38 hehe ;) Mar 02 18:04:11 I'm fine with one side. But "scratch proof" would be really important. I have no idea, how I should take the neo with me otherwise. Mar 02 18:04:23 * aloril2 noticed that GPRS connection stops working a bit before phone rings, so "pre alarm" should be possible Mar 02 18:05:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Icon-Style1.png The Terminal icon looks a bit weird to me. Mar 02 18:08:00 lol Mar 02 18:08:07 not really a terminal... Mar 02 18:08:33 some computer with unknown small form-factor Mar 02 18:09:00 * Elrond remembers the mainframe console ;) Mar 02 18:09:07 counter Mar 02 18:09:07 P0: 2 days 17:15:54 (2.719 +-1.0 days); P1: 34.719 +-10.0 (see faq) (449) Mar 02 18:09:23 cool. :) Mar 02 18:09:54 don-o: nobody knows if it'll be postponed again though... Mar 02 18:10:15 LuitvD: yeah, slip is always a possibility. Mar 02 18:10:25 LuitvD: is there a page that describes the differences between p0 and p1? Mar 02 18:10:43 don-o: dun-o Mar 02 18:10:55 * LuitvD just had to do that :) Mar 02 18:11:28 LuitvD: LOL Mar 02 18:13:07 is openmoko driven by some payed developers or completly community based? Mar 02 18:13:07 atla: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 02 18:13:15 :) Mar 02 18:13:38 omg thats cool Mar 02 18:14:06 aloril has some nice scripts :) Mar 02 18:14:34 will the neo be available in germany? Mar 02 18:15:25 atla: yes, all around the world... Mar 02 18:15:35 atla: its a GSM phone. im sure they'll ship anyways Mar 02 18:15:39 atla: er, anywhere. Mar 02 18:16:19 lol, nicy typo :P Mar 02 18:16:47 atla: but this is the openmoko IRC channel... the Neo is just a product of FIC, produced for openmoko, but not by openmoko Mar 02 18:16:56 atla - You might only have fun with customs. :-| Mar 02 18:17:23 yeah Mar 02 18:17:25 yup, that's one concern... customs and import taxes Mar 02 18:17:42 how complete is openmoko as of now? Mar 02 18:17:59 atla - It start to mature. Mar 02 18:18:02 well... look at the Wiki for that :) Mar 02 18:18:13 it's getting better all the time Mar 02 18:18:54 I think, they want to send a working phone for P0. Mar 02 18:19:10 lol, nobody touched my wiki page yet :) Mar 02 18:21:19 loufoque - Which one should we touch? ;) Mar 02 18:22:06 Huh. Mar 02 18:22:18 Elrond: touch whatever you want Mar 02 18:22:18 LuitvD - Which one should we touch? ;) Mar 02 18:23:47 Elrond: my User page :) Mar 02 18:24:45 LuitvD - Okay, that's no-touch-area. Mar 02 18:24:52 heh... since the neo's compatible with the bl-5c you could buy (in the us) a dirt cheap tracfone and harvest it's battery ;) Mar 02 18:25:01 Elrond: are you sure? :? Mar 02 18:25:21 Elrond: you mean ethically, or technically? Mar 02 18:25:30 LuitvD - by convention, I think, yes. Mar 02 18:25:40 ethically. Mar 02 18:25:47 not on my page :P Mar 02 18:26:04 I want you to (plural) Mar 02 18:26:12 I don't want to write about myself... Mar 02 18:26:44 is anyone who understands u-boot around? :) Mar 02 18:27:05 cjb - I only got the basics.... Mar 02 18:27:24 LuitvD - You should mark your page as "may be edited by others" then. ;) Mar 02 18:27:43 it is... Mar 02 18:27:45 I'm confused 'cause the wiki talks about these "mtdparts", but my u-boot build doesn't seem to know anything about them. Mar 02 18:27:59 and I can't work out how they're defined/specified on a fresh NAND, even. Mar 02 18:28:25 cjb: the manual is always around: http://www.denx.de/wiki/DULG/Manual Mar 02 18:28:42 Yeah, but the question I have is more of a Moko question. Mar 02 18:28:49 heheh Mar 02 18:29:08 that + wiki can't answer your question? Mar 02 18:29:20 Since this whole mtdparts thing seems to be novel somehow. Mar 02 18:29:44 LuitvD: like I said, I can't work it out from the wiki. Mar 02 18:29:48 cjb - """Those calculations have been implemented as u-boot "dynpart" command. Once you issue "dynpart", the partition configuration is put in the "mtdparts" environment variable. If you "saveenv" the environment, it is saved into the non-volatile environment partition.""" Mar 02 18:30:19 Elrond: where did that come from? :P Mar 02 18:30:55 cjb: try "help mtdparts" in u-boot commandline Mar 02 18:31:09 provided you have neo1973 patches applied Mar 02 18:31:33 most of them are not upstreamed yet Mar 02 18:33:11 I hope they move upstream soon. Mar 02 18:38:20 balrog-kun: thanks, that is helpful. it tells me that I don't have mtdids defined. Mar 02 18:39:27 morning Mar 02 18:41:07 cjb - Shouldn't "dynpart" load them? Mar 02 18:41:31 (I still wonder, how one sets the partitions up) Mar 02 18:41:32 cjb => mtdparts is just a variable for mtd Mar 02 18:42:49 Unknown command 'dynpart' - try 'help' Mar 02 18:42:49 Mar 02 18:43:38 your have to define it like : Mar 02 18:44:40 setenv mtdparts mtdparts=physmap-flash.0:256k(uboot)ro,64k(environ)ro,640k(kernel),7mb(rootfs) Mar 02 18:44:43 sth like that Mar 02 18:45:11 But I don't know what those offsets are. What if my NAND has bad blocks? The offsets would change. Mar 02 18:45:55 I think the answer might be that my version of u-boot is too old. Mar 02 18:46:10 Since dynpart is unknown. Mar 02 18:47:05 what is ur version u-boot ? I'm newbie on moko. I have just worked around a little bit with u-boot Mar 02 18:47:05 NTNP: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 02 18:47:33 *G* Mar 02 18:50:04 Hah. Battery just ran out, it seems. Mar 02 18:50:11 I don't know how to charge it. Mar 02 18:50:59 connect the usb port to a desktop PC. done. Mar 02 18:51:09 usb charging++ Mar 02 18:51:32 haha Mar 02 18:51:46 i remember what happened when i tried that Mar 02 18:53:21 Elrond: that would be great, but it doesn't actually work. Mar 02 18:55:35 cjb - What does "neo1973 charger status" give in u-boot? Mar 02 18:57:06 openmoko: 03werner * r1222 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-backlight.patch: Mar 02 18:57:06 openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_probe): moved hardware Mar 02 18:57:06 openmoko: initialization to new function gta01bl_init_hw Mar 02 18:57:06 openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_init_hw): added #if 1 ... #endif Mar 02 18:57:06 openmoko: around mysterious initialization code Mar 02 18:57:09 openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_resume): call gta01bl_init_hw Mar 02 19:17:35 hm i have a question, what can be refreshed at the hardware refresh in june? Give it infos? Can be wifi added? Mar 02 19:18:16 PBeck: it seems more like bug-fixing Mar 02 19:18:30 PBeck: Read the slides from Sean's fosdem talk Mar 02 19:18:53 PBeck: The update CPU and *perhaps* add something new. Mar 02 19:27:07 openmoko: 03laforge * r1223 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/ (defconfig-2.6.20-fic-gta01 defconfig-2.6.20.1-fic-gta01): Mar 02 19:27:07 openmoko: * four VT devices are enough Mar 02 19:27:07 openmoko: * include QT2410 button driver Mar 02 19:27:07 openmoko: * disable legacy pty's Mar 02 19:27:07 openmoko: * make sure MMC core is part of linked kernel Mar 02 19:27:29 openmoko: 03laforge * r1224 10/trunk/oe/conf/machine/fic-gta01.conf: we want s3cmci to be part of the root filesystem Mar 02 19:28:07 stefan_schmidt: got a URL? Mar 02 19:29:12 don-o: http://openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf Mar 02 19:29:33 stefan_schmidt: thx Mar 02 19:32:36 thanks Magon and stefan_schmidt Mar 02 19:34:04 hm stefan_schmidt where can i read about the hardwarerefresh? Mar 02 19:34:10 hm Mar 02 19:34:14 i look at the slides .. Mar 02 19:34:16 ubuntu feisty fawn is pretty decent Mar 02 19:34:47 im testing it on my lappy Mar 02 19:35:07 yeah :) Mar 02 19:35:10 running it here Mar 02 19:35:23 (as my only OS at the moment) Mar 02 19:35:32 feisty fawn herd 4 Mar 02 19:35:36 ditto Mar 02 19:36:13 the only problem I seem to have is the absence of window borders in beryl and compiz Mar 02 19:36:26 but I don't care, coz' beryl and compiz are quite useless Mar 02 19:37:02 woah these slides take a left turn on page 9 about a line-drawing language Mar 02 19:40:14 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale Mar 02 19:40:14 This will have a faster CPU and "something else everyone has been Mar 02 19:40:15 asking for". Mar 02 19:40:46 hm something else everyone has been asking for, can only be wifi? Mar 02 19:40:47 It's the teleporter, isn't it! Mar 02 19:41:03 Or maybe the beer tap. Mar 02 19:42:40 SpeedEvil: oh that can it be too :P Mar 02 19:42:55 i like teleporters. I like to go to Rio? :P Mar 02 19:43:20 thats a german advertising ^^ Mar 02 19:44:56 page 40 of the slides has the best photo of the neo1973 ive seen to date Mar 02 19:47:07 don-o: thats very very nice Mar 02 19:47:25 i think you are right Mar 02 19:48:06 i hope that many photos came online, when phase1 is started Mar 02 19:48:31 s/came/come/ Mar 02 19:48:46 argh sorry ;) Mar 02 19:49:00 s/came/will come/ even... Mar 02 19:49:09 i guess... Mar 02 19:49:21 but what's the difference... Mar 02 19:49:52 I hope some P0 developers will take nice pictures of it Mar 02 19:51:20 LuitvD: my english is not so good, so i hope you can help me ;) Mar 02 19:51:42 my english can me better. So i can edit the wiki in the future ^^ Mar 02 19:51:46 *be Mar 02 19:51:49 PBeck: I'm just a dutch 17 year-old... my english is bad too Mar 02 19:51:50 +only Mar 02 19:52:24 LuitvD: ok than can we learn together ^^ Mar 02 19:52:32 lol Mar 02 19:53:39 hm i hope "something else everyone ask-feature will be wifi :D Mar 02 19:53:45 +the Mar 02 19:54:56 yeh wifi would be usefull Mar 02 19:55:27 * LuitvD hopes to get the Phase1+ device for his birthday :) Mar 02 19:56:07 * SpeedEvil ponders swapping BT for wifi... Mar 02 19:56:14 I don't have any BT devices ATM. Mar 02 19:56:16 LuitvD: i hope i can buy the phase 2 device with my own money and wifi :p Mar 02 19:56:32 I have a wifi USB stick that should fit in the space tbe BT module takes. Mar 02 19:56:43 PBeck: you'll have to wait quite a while for that though... Mar 02 19:57:06 SpeedEvil: cool :) Mar 02 19:57:14 SpeedEvil: i dont think so. BT and wifi should be together in de device Mar 02 19:57:19 Well, yes. Mar 02 19:57:23 They should be. Mar 02 19:57:24 LuitvD: september Mar 02 19:57:32 They will not be unless I do something to it though. Mar 02 19:57:34 PBeck: yeah... that's a long time :P Mar 02 19:57:34 s/de/the Mar 02 19:58:15 It is - if it does fit - and from the images it looks like it does - only a 10 minute mod. Mar 02 19:58:17 LuitvD: my contract period is running till september Mar 02 19:58:20 so thats ok ;) Mar 02 19:58:24 PBeck: de? are you dutch or something? :P Mar 02 19:58:38 pl ;p Mar 02 19:59:17 LuitvD: hm i would write "dem" the german word for the Mar 02 19:59:27 lol Mar 02 19:59:44 PBeck: are you german then? Mar 02 20:00:14 * SpeedEvil is a Scot, living in Scotland. Mar 02 20:00:28 Scotty? Mar 02 20:00:29 alternatively it mean der. the have many significances Mar 02 20:00:30 :P Mar 02 20:00:43 LuitvD: i am from germany, yes Mar 02 20:00:56 uhm Mar 02 20:01:48 http://picasaweb.google.com/don.park/Phone/photo#5037428520552270466 Mar 02 20:02:05 thats the page from the PDF for those who want something simple to view :) Mar 02 20:02:42 only 2 desktops? :D Mar 02 20:02:51 don-o: hehe Mar 02 20:02:54 s/desktops/workspaces/ Mar 02 20:02:54 LuitvD meant: only 2 workspaces? :D Mar 02 20:03:12 LuitvD: lol. two is plenty. Mar 02 20:03:17 hm i use one workspace, but i have only a few windows ^^ Mar 02 20:03:31 don-o: well, for me it isn't :P Mar 02 20:03:50 don-o: used 6 workspaces simultaniously yesterday Mar 02 20:03:55 (my record) Mar 02 20:03:58 LuitvD: good golly. Mar 02 20:04:10 :) Mar 02 20:12:20 hi everyone Mar 02 20:12:45 hi natetrue Mar 02 20:13:10 sup Mar 02 20:13:17 you Mar 02 20:13:19 :) Mar 02 20:13:42 (the alternative way to say nut'n) Mar 02 20:14:00 hi natetrue Mar 02 20:14:03 hi Mar 02 20:14:25 been quiet on openmoko for the last couple weeks Mar 02 20:14:31 yeah Mar 02 20:14:56 the neo p0 devices being postponed didn't do much good I guess.. Mar 02 20:15:45 imho, it's nice to be more quiet here. Mar 02 20:15:52 can't wait to get my hands on a neo Mar 02 20:16:09 linux in my pocket, i love making little useful apps Mar 02 20:16:51 :P Mar 02 20:17:00 you're not the only one Mar 02 20:17:01 natetrue: i like nice apps too, that i can use :D Mar 02 20:17:20 *they Mar 02 20:17:25 i'm especially excited about the GPS Mar 02 20:17:31 yes iam too Mar 02 20:17:40 i like the openstreetmap project Mar 02 20:17:45 same here Mar 02 20:17:57 but the biggest pro is still that it's just a linux pda too Mar 02 20:18:00 i hope it will be a navigation possible in the future Mar 02 20:18:16 which I like... so I can throw away my Palm PDA Mar 02 20:18:35 LuitvD: yes thats right. I hope the neo will sync with evolution very well Mar 02 20:18:42 if not you can fix it Mar 02 20:18:54 you mean the sync? Mar 02 20:19:24 hm iam not a programmer, so thats not so easy, but i look forward to help ;) Mar 02 20:19:25 natetrue: fix what? my Palm? Mar 02 20:20:01 hm i think a evolutio light server run on the neo Mar 02 20:20:28 so it would be easy so sync with evolution. I hope ^^ Mar 02 20:20:40 damn, it seems like I burnt my microchip ... or something similar... Mar 02 20:20:46 it won't do anything... Mar 02 20:23:00 Openstreetmap will simply never happen for a couple of decades in many places. Mar 02 20:23:05 LuitvD: hm we can use the openstreetmap files to navigate but we need first any ^^ Mar 02 20:23:16 :) Mar 02 20:23:36 SpeedEvil: who knows what will happen... Mar 02 20:23:46 SpeedEvil: sadly you are right :/ Mar 02 20:24:04 but i hope the converse ^^ Mar 02 20:24:06 LuitvD: the amount of data entry needed is _huge_. Mar 02 20:24:06 SpeedEvil: maybe some major commercial streetmaps will help openstreetmap some day... Mar 02 20:24:11 though I doubt it Mar 02 20:24:22 And the cost of generating reliable maps is large. Mar 02 20:24:28 yup Mar 02 20:24:47 yes Mar 02 20:25:00 I think it's much more likely that maps will be available to users at a reasonable cost. Mar 02 20:25:08 As the numbers go up. Mar 02 20:25:18 i would add my town to openstreetmap, when i give a client for the neo Mar 02 20:25:37 You will drive every street in your town, and add all streetnames? Mar 02 20:25:53 That's a rather large project, for any but the smallest towns. Mar 02 20:26:12 And then you're going to make errors. Mar 02 20:26:30 VErifying is at least as hard as the initial mapping. Mar 02 20:26:42 not i i mean it above, argh ... Mar 02 20:26:55 SpeedEvil: hm i think thats possible Mar 02 20:27:13 what can we do all with gps, when we have no maps? Mar 02 20:27:28 Google-maps works. Mar 02 20:27:36 To an extent. Mar 02 20:27:57 can i save the maps on the neo Mar 02 20:27:57 Wander round the area you're going with a browser with a large cache. Mar 02 20:28:11 Then you can read the maps from cache. Mar 02 20:28:25 Doing mmuch more violates google-maps TOS. Mar 02 20:28:32 give it a option to combinate the google maps with gps? Mar 02 20:29:04 With cheap internet access, google-maps is almost a good solution. Mar 02 20:29:09 Without it, well... Mar 02 20:29:16 but i dont can look where i am Mar 02 20:29:34 s/dont can/cannot/ ;) Mar 02 20:29:50 You can goto maps.google.co.uk/w=3&n=3 or something. Mar 02 20:29:52 SpeedEvil: it would be a nice application of google maps Mar 02 20:29:53 LuitvD: thanks ;) Mar 02 20:30:01 And go to 3 degrees west, 3 degrees east Mar 02 20:30:06 picking the URL off the GPS. Mar 02 20:30:45 SpeedEvil: oh ok thats a good alternative Mar 02 20:30:54 It does need an internet connection. Mar 02 20:31:00 we need a phone flatrate :D Mar 02 20:31:06 you'd be back where you started (3 degrees west, 3 degrees east) Mar 02 20:31:35 * SpeedEvil suspects rwhitby knows what I meant. Mar 02 20:31:40 :-) Mar 02 20:32:08 I've used the 'cache browser' option with a laptop before. Mar 02 20:32:40 The zoom/pan works fine, as long as the tiles are in cache. Mar 02 20:33:12 SpeedEvil: hm ok thats ossible Mar 02 20:33:14 possible Mar 02 20:33:24 google gpsdrive too. Mar 02 20:33:31 wow, my robot's software has some strange bugs... Mar 02 20:33:44 Is it stalking you, wielding a chainsaw? Mar 02 20:33:45 is it going berserk and harming people Mar 02 20:35:10 so i go offline now Mar 02 20:35:15 bye ;) Mar 02 20:36:58 lol Mar 02 20:40:17 openmoko: 03werner * r1225 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (Makefile setup.sh): Mar 02 20:40:17 openmoko: setup.sh: added option -t to create a portable tarball (UNTESTED) Mar 02 20:40:17 openmoko: setup.sh: moved test whether file exists locally into "download" Mar 02 20:40:17 openmoko: setup.sh: added download of dfu-util and, optionally, openocd and openocd.cfg Mar 02 20:40:17 openmoko: Makefile: added tarball creation (UNTESTED) Mar 02 20:41:37 SpeedEvil - Is the "My Account" thing an idea or foreseeable reality? Mar 02 20:46:09 Ahh, found the link on the main page. Mar 02 20:57:21 SpeedEvil - Is it okay, if I put the standard wishlist disclaimer to the "My Account" page? Mar 02 21:08:31 Sure. Mar 02 21:08:33 Forgot it. Mar 02 21:08:45 It's a forseeable reality - if FIC is interested. Mar 02 21:09:12 Without FIC, it's vanishingly unlikely to succeed. Mar 02 21:10:00 The code isn't exactly very difficult. Mar 02 21:10:55 Simple web-database. One-way trasform from IMEI to account number. Mar 02 21:11:02 Account number printed on phone. Mar 02 21:11:51 what with SIM cards with disabled gprs connections? Mar 02 21:12:13 or phones where user want to use few simcards? Mar 02 21:12:22 hrw - What do you mean? Mar 02 21:12:36 IMEI does not change. Mar 02 21:12:37 I hope I can write as much C code for Openmoko as I did for my robot just now... :| Mar 02 21:12:39 It's per-phone. Mar 02 21:12:54 Cannot be changed, without TIs internal docs. Mar 02 21:13:09 SpeedEvil: is the IMEI linked to the GSM module? Mar 02 21:13:19 Yes. Mar 02 21:13:19 user can use card which do not have possibility to do any gprs connection Mar 02 21:13:26 SpeedEvil: does a dual-phone have two IMEI codes then? Mar 02 21:13:31 It's the unique serial number that's at the heart of GSM phones. Mar 02 21:13:40 It is the phones identity to the GSM network. Mar 02 21:13:52 Clone it, and you have a cloned phone, that can make calls on the original number. Mar 02 21:13:56 so then a dual-phone should have two... Mar 02 21:14:21 A true 'dual phone', with two radios, capable of simultaneous operation - yes. Mar 02 21:14:26 :) Mar 02 21:14:59 It's illegal (in the UK) to alter the IMEI., Mar 02 21:15:01 hrw - So what... you can't do gprs... so what? Mar 02 21:15:23 SpeedEvil: so what will a true doal phone do when asked for *#06# ? Mar 02 21:15:30 :P Mar 02 21:15:31 I have no idea. Mar 02 21:15:39 Find one, and type it. Mar 02 21:15:39 s/doal/dual/ Mar 02 21:15:41 :S Mar 02 21:15:51 SpeedEvil: lol, i'd love to Mar 02 21:15:53 The logical thing to do would be to present it on the screen. Mar 02 21:15:56 (s) Mar 02 21:16:04 present both... Mar 02 21:17:08 I probably shouldn't have made the 'And they can even make you hear voices' to the 'My Account' thread on the list... Mar 02 21:17:44 I thought it was funny :-) Mar 02 21:18:03 XD Mar 02 21:18:32 i assume it's possible for 'someone' with the access to phone an IMEI. Mar 02 21:18:45 If it's on their net. Mar 02 21:18:50 * LuitvD hath a voice also, making people hear it is my duty Mar 02 21:19:10 someone who uses a gsm phone, and doesn't think that the cellular operator has the ability to track and listen to everything they do, is a bit naieve. Mar 02 21:20:30 openmoko: 03werner * r1226 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (Makefile config.example setup.sh): Mar 02 21:20:30 openmoko: setup.sh: renamed OPENOCD_CONFIG to OPENOCD_CFG Mar 02 21:20:30 openmoko: setup.sh, Makefile: renamed output file from devirg-... to devirginate-... Mar 02 21:20:30 openmoko: config.example: added OPENOCD and OPENOCD_CFG Mar 02 21:20:42 Moko-Alibi. Use speech recognition to cue, and a recording of your voice to hold a conversation with a third party. Someone in a call center working from a script is ideal. Leave the phone in the location, do the crime, come back to pick it up later! Mar 02 21:20:46 cu Mar 02 21:22:20 I think my next robot will be something like this :D http://www.metacafe.com/watch/445498/robotic_beer_launching_refrigerator/ Mar 02 21:22:42 SpeedEvil - *lol* Mar 02 21:22:45 making it aim for my neo's Bluetooth signal :) Mar 02 21:23:36 And on his gravestone was written "Killed by a flying cold one". Mar 02 21:24:38 interesting concept.. http://www.neokeys.com/en/nk_en.html Mar 02 21:24:54 I'd rather have the keys have the display on them Mar 02 21:25:56 I thought about that. Mar 02 21:26:00 It's _hard_ to do. Mar 02 21:26:20 The only way I came up with was actual little displays on the keys. Mar 02 21:26:26 SpeedEvil: why do you use _this_ all the time, doesn't this work? Mar 02 21:26:39 Otherwise you get focus and point of view problems. Mar 02 21:26:53 * SpeedEvil always turns colours off. Mar 02 21:26:59 doesn't ctrl + b work for you Mar 02 21:27:02 SpeedEvil: I was thinking of opaque membranes Mar 02 21:27:02 (bold) Mar 02 21:27:12 No. Mar 02 21:27:18 testbold Mar 02 21:27:22 That worked. Mar 02 21:27:27 hmm, works in irssi, interesting Mar 02 21:27:28 :) Mar 02 21:27:39 is this bold? Mar 02 21:27:40 underlines? Mar 02 21:27:41 I already saw some tft-on-key thingy... someone pasted the url here. Mar 02 21:27:52 underline Mar 02 21:27:55 lol Mar 02 21:27:57 Anyway - the problem with tactile buttons is that the button is of course raised over the display. Mar 02 21:27:58 how did you do that? Mar 02 21:28:03 reverse Mar 02 21:28:05 heheh Mar 02 21:28:07 how Mar 02 21:28:28 If the button is raised above the display, this means that when you move the phone, you get parallax problems. Mar 02 21:28:36 Ctrl-_ for underline. Ctrl-V for reverse. Mar 02 21:28:37 And if the face of the button isn't flat, you get lensing. Mar 02 21:28:38 that's true enough Mar 02 21:28:48 don't abuse. It's annoying on the screen. Mar 02 21:29:05 in irssi? Mar 02 21:29:14 And the problem of having an air-layer under the keys is that it makes the optical transmission worse. Mar 02 21:29:17 doesn't work in Xchat :) Mar 02 21:29:34 It is solvable, but not trivially, to get it to look good. Mar 02 21:29:49 If you accept it looking 'Ok', then you can get away with more. Mar 02 21:30:15 isn't just using a touch-screen like sensor more convenient for that purpose? Mar 02 21:30:15 LuitvD - Don't ask me how to enter it in $yourircclient. These codes are plain on the wire. Mar 02 21:30:44 Not really - tactile buttons are really great for blind input. Mar 02 21:30:50 The labels are just hints. Mar 02 21:31:00 As are the numbers on a conventional phone. Mar 02 21:31:25 hmm, can't you put some reliëf in the touchscreen then? Mar 02 21:31:49 In theory, yes. Mar 02 21:31:58 i bet "reliëf" isn't the right word... Mar 02 21:32:00 in practice, it's another thing to go wrong. Mar 02 21:32:12 relief pretty much is. Mar 02 21:32:13 to LuitvD; happy to find another xchat user :) Mar 02 21:32:18 lol Mar 02 21:32:39 One of its meanings is 'an engraved pattern' or something. Mar 02 21:32:40 rodgers: I think I'll switch back to irssi soon though... Mar 02 21:32:53 * SpeedEvil uses BitchX/screen. Mar 02 21:33:43 LuitvD: dont know it - does it run on my SPARC/Solaris box? ;) Mar 02 21:34:03 rodgers: ask irssi ;) Mar 02 21:34:12 rodgers: your guess is as good as mine Mar 02 21:34:19 LuitvD: touche Mar 02 21:35:27 irssi, just like BitchX just depends on ncurses Mar 02 21:35:34 so it should run on just about anything Mar 02 21:37:03 libm, libcrypt, libresolv, libc, ld-linux Mar 02 21:37:49 and now that Solaris got released under GNU-GPL it's a matter of time before it's supported (if it isn't supported already) Mar 02 21:38:12 good point Mar 02 21:38:48 * LuitvD has just ordered a free OpenSolaris Starter Kit Mar 02 21:39:04 Will it even run on the neo? Mar 02 21:39:09 heheh, maybe... Mar 02 21:39:21 will need some hacking of the solaris-kernel I guess... Mar 02 21:39:33 I bet solaris isn't supporting ARM yet... Mar 02 21:39:47 but maybe it is already... who knows Mar 02 21:39:54 counter Mar 02 21:39:54 P0: 2 days 13:45:06 (2.573 +-1.0 days); P1: 34.573 +-10.0 (see faq) (450) Mar 02 21:40:10 LuitvD: It is still under cddl according to opensolaris.org Mar 02 21:40:26 philips: is it? :| Mar 02 21:40:55 I think that's under review Mar 02 21:41:00 LuitvD: The majority of OpenSolaris code is released under the Common Development and Distribution License (CDDL) Version 1.0. Mar 02 21:41:29 Stephmw: yeah, they had their doubts about GPLv3, not? Mar 02 21:41:42 (just like Linus) Mar 02 21:41:49 LuitvD: dunno about doubts - atm it's just prudent to wait and see Mar 02 21:42:11 :) Mar 02 21:42:19 and order a free dev. starter kit Mar 02 21:42:38 the GPL+linking exception that Sun took for the OpenJDK is an interesting proposition Mar 02 21:43:01 it's better suited to core libraries and apis **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 02 21:50:13 2007 Mar 02 21:50:24 well, I think it's time for me to sleep for a while... Mar 02 21:50:44 and I don't think I'll come back till monday Mar 02 21:50:58 gonna finish the work on my robot this weekend I think... Mar 02 21:51:04 bye y'all Mar 02 21:52:05 good luck on living through these last days before p0 Mar 02 21:52:07 counter Mar 02 21:52:07 P0: 2 days 13:32:54 (2.565 +-1.0 days); P1: 34.565 +-10.0 (see faq) (451) Mar 02 21:52:09 :) Mar 02 21:53:00 I suppose in around a week we'll have some p0's in hands of devs. Mar 02 22:17:27 hi Mar 02 22:18:19 openmoko: 03werner * r1227 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (Makefile openocd.in setup.sh): Mar 02 22:18:19 openmoko: setup.sh, Makefile: use an explicit list of files to include, not just all that Mar 02 22:18:19 openmoko: happens to be in tmp/ Mar 02 22:18:19 openmoko: Makefile, setup.sh: changed tarball directory from devirginator-... to Mar 02 22:18:19 openmoko: devirginate-... Mar 02 22:18:20 openmoko: Makefile: added tarball dependencies Mar 02 22:18:24 openmoko: setup.sh, openocd.in: replaced all absolute path names with relative ones Mar 02 22:20:19 what is display size in width and height? Mar 02 22:20:29 i think the specification is bad, on the vendor's site Mar 02 22:20:31 http://blog.printf.net/articles/2007/02/22/unboxing-the-openmoko-phone Mar 02 22:21:17 in this picture, i don't think the screen is only 5*6cm (iirc) as described on the vendor's site (linked from wiki) Mar 02 22:22:50 Active Area 43.2 x 57.6 Mar 02 22:23:09 as i see this is bigger, not? Mar 02 22:37:28 What do you mean? Mar 02 22:37:39 Yes, the screen is only 2.8". Mar 02 22:37:56 That picture makes the screen look large because it is close to the camera. Mar 02 22:38:41 ok:/ Mar 02 22:43:57 openmoko: 03werner * r1228 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (Makefile config.phase0 setup.sh): Mar 02 22:43:57 openmoko: setup.sh: always download the index file from the Web (the current logic would Mar 02 22:43:57 openmoko: only "cache" in case of problems anyway) Mar 02 22:43:57 openmoko: Makefile: commented out "devirginate" target causing double execution of Mar 02 22:43:57 openmoko: setup.sh Mar 02 22:43:57 openmoko: config.phase0: phase 0 sample configuration Mar 02 22:46:42 is it just me or does the car holder look rather half baked? Mar 02 22:47:45 it seems usable, but fugly Mar 02 22:51:03 the wha? Mar 02 22:51:52 the wha starts now Mar 02 22:51:54 :) Mar 02 22:55:52 I don't think it's up to the job. Mar 02 22:55:59 There is no way you could lift a car with that. Mar 02 22:56:28 (i half expected that reply) Mar 02 22:56:29 my thoughts exactly. Rippoff Mar 02 22:57:52 75$ seems step for it anyhow Mar 02 22:58:01 Indeed. Mar 02 22:58:06 Especially when it doesn't charge. Mar 02 22:58:16 so it's just dumb plastic? Mar 02 22:58:27 (instead of dumb plastic with some dumb wires) Mar 02 22:58:30 It may have an antenna connector on, I don't know. Mar 02 22:58:48 i have never needed antenna connector with any phone in a car Mar 02 22:58:50 It can't have GPS, as that'd be visible, as would the charging connector. Mar 02 22:59:43 if this is really just a passive holder, 20$ would be more appropriate in my view Mar 02 22:59:56 But it's 'designed'. Mar 02 22:59:59 (especially considering just how half baked it looks) Mar 02 23:00:12 designed to look like home made? Mar 02 23:00:27 It's not just any shape, it's been carefully designed by a skilled designer, on _quality_ drugs. Mar 02 23:00:58 lol, i was playing wario smooth moves on a wii today. those people must have been on quality drugs too Mar 02 23:01:16 (and i finally believe that games COULD be harmful to kids, but it's not the violence oh no) Mar 02 23:02:27 anyway, time to go to sleep Mar 02 23:02:29 night Mar 02 23:02:34 Night. Mar 02 23:41:18 counter Mar 02 23:41:18 P0: 2 days 11:43:42 (2.489 +-1.0 days); P1: 34.489 +-10.0 (see faq) (452) Mar 02 23:41:29 yeah baby! Mar 02 23:41:41 * CoreDump|home does the neo dance Mar 02 23:41:58 Waiting a month... Mar 02 23:42:18 Waiting a few days =) Mar 02 23:51:03 CoreDump|home: can you video tape your dance and wiki it? :) Mar 02 23:51:32 the first one to do will have the freedom to define the Neo dance. Mar 02 23:51:35 CoreDump|home is such a neoform ... Mar 02 23:52:00 heh Mar 02 23:52:28 CoreDump|home: and that someone can be YOU! Mar 02 23:52:58 * CoreDump|home doesn't own a cam Mar 02 23:53:06 ;) Mar 02 23:53:12 doh! me neither :) Mar 02 23:55:30 CoreDump|home - not even a digicam? Mar 02 23:55:45 I mean, one for still pictures, or how it's called. Mar 02 23:56:16 Anyway: Good night people. Mar 02 23:56:24 Elrond: right, I got one of those. But my last working CF storage card kinda crapped out on me =) Mar 02 23:56:31 n8 Elrond Mar 03 00:09:58 openmoko: 03laforge * r1229 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/lowlevel_foo.patch: board/neo1973/Makefile has arm-linux-objcopy hardcoded, use CROSS_COMPILE. (Closes: 230) Mar 03 00:14:03 openmoko: 03laforge * r1230 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb): Mar 03 00:14:03 openmoko: Need to add ${STAGING_BINDIR} prefix to calls to the just-build uboot-mkimage. (Closes: #224) Mar 03 00:14:03 openmoko: --Thi line, and those below, will be ignored-- Mar 03 00:14:03 openmoko: M oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb Mar 03 00:14:03 openmoko: M oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb Mar 03 00:14:33 x| [: 49: ==: unexpected operator Mar 03 00:14:33 | ./configure: 49: function: not found Mar 03 00:14:33 | ./configure: 49: Syntax error: Bad fd number Mar 03 00:14:49 anyone know how to fix that? error in mtpaint-3.02-r0 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 03 01:07:02 2007 Mar 03 01:48:10 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r38 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (linux-gta01.patch series): Removed kernel.bb patch - applied upstream. Mar 03 02:10:04 MoRpHeUz: quick! we must evacuate Nebucanezzar! ;) Mar 03 02:23:54 aevin: =P Mar 03 02:56:37 has anyone here used the mokomakefile? Mar 03 02:56:57 Cannot determine version for monotone using "mtn --version" Mar 03 02:57:03 i get this error for some reason Mar 03 02:57:32 running "mtn --version" in terminal tells works for me **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 03 02:59:59 2007