**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 03 02:59:59 2007
Mar 03 03:11:35 <rwhitby> peeps: what version of mtn are you running?
Mar 03 03:13:43 <peeps> 0.24
Mar 03 03:15:04 <rwhitby> too old - you need 0.27 at least
Mar 03 03:17:08 <peeps> ok, upgraded to .33, thx
Mar 03 03:20:26 <peeps> doh, version is too new now
Mar 03 03:21:49 <peeps> got a 404 from for the .33 file at http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots
Mar 03 03:25:39 <rwhitby> yep.
Mar 03 03:25:48 <rwhitby> download the 0.32 version, and use that
Mar 03 03:27:44 <peeps> yeah, i got it
Mar 03 03:28:28 <peeps-goldilocks> just right
Mar 03 03:28:55 * aevin just started: make openmoko-devel-image
Mar 03 03:30:14 <aevin> this should take hours, right?
Mar 03 03:30:32 <aevin> perhaps i better just go to sleep... hm.
Mar 03 03:36:56 <aevin> rwhitby: great mokomakefile you've made.
Mar 03 03:37:42 <aevin> now it should be at least 2 of 2 people recommending it :P
Mar 03 03:39:04 <rwhitby> aevin: thx - my goal is to take the problem of supporting external developers trying to build the image off the shoulders of the core devs (at least for this initial period).  Then they have more time to make my phase0 phone better :-)
Mar 03 03:41:00 <peeps-goldilocks> maybe it is a nitpick, but it might help to change to mtn version error message to say "version too old" instead of saying it couldn't determine the version.
Mar 03 03:41:14 <aevin> yes, it seems like the core devs is insanely busy atm. i feel kind of sorry for them, but it's their job, so ...
Mar 03 03:41:39 <rwhitby> peeps-goldilocks: what did "mtn --version" print for your old version?
Mar 03 03:42:00 <rwhitby> that check is meant to catch when people don't even have mtn installed
Mar 03 03:42:13 <rwhitby> I bet you have a monotone -> mtn shell alias or something, right?
Mar 03 03:42:52 <peeps-goldilocks> I don't know exactly what it said verbatim.  i did have to do an alias for the old version though
Mar 03 03:44:40 <peeps-goldilocks> monotone 0.24 (base revision: d59847072bb689e952ab21db7f9fababdb80a19f)
Mar 03 03:44:42 <rwhitby> right - that message says that the noninteractive shell cannot find a 'mtn' command (which yours couldn't)
Mar 03 03:44:57 <peeps-goldilocks> i reinstalled just for you ;-)
Mar 03 03:45:00 <rwhitby> so the message it printed it correct.
Mar 03 03:45:31 <rwhitby> the diagnosis could be one of a couple of things.  'mtn' not being a real command, monotone not installed at all, mtn not in path, ....
Mar 03 03:45:45 <rwhitby> so "version too old" would not be accurate in a lot of cases.
Mar 03 03:45:52 <peeps-goldilocks> yeah, i put the alias in my .bashrc
Mar 03 03:46:14 <peeps-goldilocks> don't know why the script wouldn't see that though
Mar 03 03:47:11 <peeps-goldilocks> not a huge deal though
Mar 03 03:47:37 <rwhitby> a makefile calls /bin/sh non-interactively, so a .bashrc may not get executed.
Mar 03 03:47:52 <rwhitby> (it's a makefile, not a script - very different beasts)
Mar 03 03:48:49 <aevin> all the sources and builds for openmoko-devel-image requires ~7 GiB disk space?
Mar 03 03:53:29 <rwhitby> aevin: if you put INHERIT += "rm_work" in your local.conf, then it reduces that significantly
Mar 03 03:53:48 <aevin> what does that mean?
Mar 03 03:53:50 <rwhitby> (it removes each tmp/work/*/foo dir after each one builds correctly)
Mar 03 03:55:05 <aevin> local.conf accepts '#' for comments, right?
Mar 03 03:55:13 <rwhitby> yep
Mar 03 03:55:35 <rwhitby> can you put that on the mokomakefile wiki page please?
Mar 03 03:56:43 <aevin> okay.
Mar 03 04:05:04 <catchjosh> I'm sure you guys get hundreds of these a day, but has any developer received their 'gratis' hardware yet?
Mar 03 04:05:05 <aloril> catchjosh: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 03 04:05:56 <aevin> catchjosh: no, the phase 0 devs are still waiting
Mar 03 04:06:00 <aevin> counter
Mar 03 04:06:00 <aloril> P0: 2 days 07:18:59 (2.305 +-1.0 days);  P1: 34.305 +-10.0 (see faq) (453)
Mar 03 04:06:47 <aevin> aloril: sorry, didn't see you'd already answered his question :) *tired*
Mar 03 04:08:13 <aloril> aevin: np, that was auto answer ;-)
Mar 03 04:08:46 <catchjosh> aevin: Thanks -- are there any developers dedicated to 'blogging' (via photo, video, etc) their experience when they receive their unit? Obviously, there are far more important things to be done, but I have a feeling there are a lot of us who would like to see the evolution on YouTube or whatever...
Mar 03 04:09:46 <aevin> catchjosh: yes, several P0 devs have promised us pics/vids. You should also keep an eye with the OpenMoko Planet website: http://planet.openmoko.org/
Mar 03 04:10:01 <aloril> http://planet.openmoko.org/
Mar 03 04:10:39 <catchjosh> aevin: Thanks -- I've been reading the main mailing list for a while, but that doesn't seem to be the primary source of information. Sorry to take up your time, happy developing!
Mar 03 04:12:54 <aevin> catchjosh: don't worry. btw, this IRC channel is quite a good source for keeping you updated, in addition to the mailing lists (MLs)
Mar 03 04:13:37 <catchjosh> aevin: Thanks. As primarily a web / python developer, I know there's not much I can do to help except generally remain quite excited. :)
Mar 03 06:47:26 <PBeck> hi
Mar 03 09:04:21 <NTNP> salut tlm
Mar 03 09:04:33 <PBeck> hey yours :D
Mar 03 09:04:53 <PBeck> is this correct english? 
Mar 03 09:06:36 <NTNP> euh nope its french :p
Mar 03 09:06:46 <NTNP> hello all here
Mar 03 09:06:47 <NTNP> :)
Mar 03 09:07:16 <PBeck> NTNP: i mean can i say "hey yours" for all user in the channel
Mar 03 09:07:44 <NTNP> ah :)
Mar 03 09:07:49 <atla> hum
Mar 03 09:08:06 <PBeck> the same meaning as "hello all here"?
Mar 03 09:08:06 <bluelightning> PBeck: wouldn't you just say "hey all" ?
Mar 03 09:08:10 <atla> D
Mar 03 09:08:10 <atla> :D
Mar 03 09:08:20 <PBeck> or is it better so say "hey you"?
Mar 03 09:08:41 <bluelightning> "you" isn't plural though
Mar 03 09:08:42 <PBeck> or how can i translate the german word "ihr" ;)
Mar 03 09:09:00 <bluelightning> and you can't really say "yous" although some people in my country try...
Mar 03 09:09:16 <PBeck> bluelightning: ok than i say "hello all" :D
Mar 03 09:09:31 <bluelightning> PBeck: I do :)
Mar 03 09:10:03 <PBeck> hehe :D
Mar 03 09:10:51 <PBeck> have the phase0 devices already arrived the first developers?
Mar 03 09:28:00 <SpeedEvil> The time in counter is only time to ship.
Mar 03 09:28:29 <SpeedEvil> I'd assume it'd be posted to the mailing lists when it does, anyway.
Mar 03 09:28:47 <SpeedEvil> As sending stuff when the recipient does not know it's arriving is silly.
Mar 03 09:31:49 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: yes thats right
Mar 03 09:32:35 <PBeck> hehe the "Getting Started with your Neo1973" site have content :D
Mar 03 09:33:01 <PBeck> hm can i add the photo of the neo to the photo page? I think thats usefull?
Mar 03 09:33:48 <PBeck> so the new user can faster find any cool pics :D
Mar 03 09:34:16 <SpeedEvil> Click 'edit' up at the top of the page. And see how the syntax works.
Mar 03 09:35:55 <PBeck> yes i know. i ask only if that is a mistake ;)
Mar 03 09:37:59 <PBeck> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Introduction#Outside
Mar 03 09:38:01 <PBeck> is this ok?
Mar 03 09:43:01 <PBeck> hm is it possible to print with the neo on a usb printer? I mean when the usb port it not powered?
Mar 03 09:43:08 <SpeedEvil> Looks ok.
Mar 03 09:43:13 <SpeedEvil> Well...
Mar 03 09:43:15 <SpeedEvil> It depends.
Mar 03 09:43:25 <PBeck> from what?
Mar 03 09:43:30 <SpeedEvil> Some peripherals will not recognise an unpowered host.
Mar 03 09:43:49 <SpeedEvil> they trigger on teh 5V being available to wake up.
Mar 03 09:44:18 <SpeedEvil> In that case, you'll need a powered hub (some of those also don't work on unpowered hosts) 
Mar 03 09:44:26 <PBeck> hm i can buy a mini usb hub with a power supply
Mar 03 09:44:30 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Mar 03 09:44:41 <SpeedEvil> Where are you?
Mar 03 09:44:59 <PBeck> how you mean?
Mar 03 09:45:10 <SpeedEvil> Actually - irrelvant, mostly.
Mar 03 09:45:26 <PBeck> you mean from which country i am?
Mar 03 09:45:36 <SpeedEvil> It's just that US tends to have smallest adaptors, as they fold down nicely (the pins in the plug)
Mar 03 09:45:58 <PBeck> i live in germany
Mar 03 09:46:24 <SpeedEvil> If you have a 'USB charger' - one of many devices with a 5V USB socket on it, then all you eed is a special cable.
Mar 03 09:46:37 <SpeedEvil> To make the USB port powered.
Mar 03 09:47:39 <PBeck> http://www.amazon.de/Trekstor-220V-Netzladeger%C3%A4t-mit-USB-Anschluss/dp/B000ANW1YK/ref=pd_ka_1/303-0046159-2013877?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1172917342&sr=8-1
Mar 03 09:47:45 <PBeck> i have this power supply
Mar 03 09:48:11 <PBeck> which special cable i need?
Mar 03 09:48:24 <SpeedEvil> A custome non-0standard one for the neo.
Mar 03 09:49:04 <SpeedEvil> It takes the power and ground lines, and connects them in parallel with the power and ground ones from the charger.
Mar 03 09:49:31 <PBeck> for the neo i need a mini usb connector
Mar 03 09:49:45 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Mar 03 09:49:51 <SpeedEvil> It's be a cable with three plugs.
Mar 03 09:50:04 <SpeedEvil> One plugs into the neo. One into the charger, and one into the USB device.
Mar 03 09:51:17 <PBeck> yes that will possible
Mar 03 09:51:29 <mjr> by golly, I didn't even think that one can of course power a gadget from a wall socket when available
Mar 03 09:51:54 <PBeck> perhaps we can build the cable self
Mar 03 09:52:02 <mjr> and don't I recall that Sean said the basic kit would contain a wall charger? (Not sure, don't blame Sean if I don't recall correctly, but IIRC...)
Mar 03 09:52:07 <SpeedEvil> Of course, the charger can be replaces by a battery with a 5V converter.
Mar 03 09:52:17 <SpeedEvil> I think they said 'mini charger'.
Mar 03 09:52:31 <SpeedEvil> However.
Mar 03 09:52:38 <SpeedEvil> e&qid=1172917342&sr=8-1
Mar 03 09:52:42 <SpeedEvil> ops
Mar 03 09:52:51 <PBeck> hm what is a wall charger?
Mar 03 09:52:57 <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/106335
Mar 03 09:53:01 <SpeedEvil> wors very well.
Mar 03 09:53:06 <SpeedEvil> works.
Mar 03 09:53:16 <PBeck> we have only a usb-cable to charge the neo in de basic kit
Mar 03 09:53:21 <SpeedEvil> charger that plugs into the wall.
Mar 03 09:53:47 <SpeedEvil> (url is international multi-standard adaptor in a very compact package)
Mar 03 09:53:58 <PBeck> yes no power plug
Mar 03 09:55:55 <mjr> ok
Mar 03 09:56:01 <mjr> SpeedEvil, seems interesting
Mar 03 09:56:18 <PBeck> but it give a mass of power plug to usb charger
Mar 03 09:56:42 <SpeedEvil> I've only used the UK plug, bit it seems to work well.
Mar 03 09:57:19 <PBeck> my mother use the trekstor charger i posted above to charge her music player
Mar 03 09:57:58 <SpeedEvil> I like the above as there are no sticky-out bits, so you can put it in cases without worrying about it scratching stuff.
Mar 03 09:59:12 <mjr> there are those three-pronged USB cables with some (old?) usb hard drives so they can be powered from two parallel ports, are those sold separately?
Mar 03 09:59:42 <SpeedEvil> Possibly.
Mar 03 09:59:54 <SpeedEvil> That won't actually work, as they are for full-sied hosts.
Mar 03 10:00:05 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: yes that charger is nice too. 
Mar 03 10:00:09 <SpeedEvil> You'd need a converter.
Mar 03 10:00:46 <PBeck> yes i know
Mar 03 10:00:46 <SpeedEvil> I'm considering ordering some cables and connectors, and aking a few USB cables for neo.
Mar 03 10:00:49 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: where you are from?
Mar 03 10:00:52 <SpeedEvil> UK.
Mar 03 10:00:54 <SpeedEvil> Scotland.
Mar 03 10:00:56 <PBeck> ok
Mar 03 10:01:08 <PBeck> i think it give connectors for germany too
Mar 03 10:01:12 <mjr> SpeedEvil, I do have set of adapters that would come handy with that
Mar 03 10:01:33 <PBeck> i dont buy a UK charger when i can get a charger for germany ;)
Mar 03 10:02:08 <SpeedEvil> Currently 15m nw of http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=56.21678+-3.111850+(home)&ie=UTF8&z=11&om=0
Mar 03 10:02:24 <SpeedEvil> It has connectors for almost everywhere.
Mar 03 10:02:31 <mjr> though with those I could only connect the Neo to a gadget with a large port, would need an extra adapter for a small port
Mar 03 10:03:42 <PBeck> mjr: you can use the cable that would be in the basic kit
Mar 03 10:03:50 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: nice ;)
Mar 03 10:03:52 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - I was considering a >3 headed cable.
Mar 03 10:04:15 <SpeedEvil> with host and device connectors of several sorts.
Mar 03 10:04:34 <SpeedEvil> Problem is, it could get rather complex.
Mar 03 10:04:35 <mjr> PBeck, umm, wouldn't combo with these adapters
Mar 03 10:05:16 <PBeck> i belief that the cable is a usb mini b to a usb typ A?
Mar 03 10:05:23 <mjr> I'd need to convert a standard usb a male to usb mini b
Mar 03 10:05:33 <mjr> (male)
Mar 03 10:06:09 <PBeck> a cable usb mini A to usb mini b is not usefull
Mar 03 10:06:34 <PBeck> i think it would be a mini to normal cable
Mar 03 10:07:04 <mjr> you don't know what I have already, so you don't know what I need :]
Mar 03 10:08:22 <SpeedEvil> Hmm! http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/3639 USB host with SPI interface.
Mar 03 10:08:31 * SpeedEvil considers one of these for expansion.
Mar 03 10:08:33 <PBeck> mjr: i speak from the charger that postet from SpeedEvil 
Mar 03 10:09:09 <PBeck> mjr: and i speak from the provided cable in the basic kit
Mar 03 10:09:12 <PBeck> which would it be
Mar 03 10:09:22 <PBeck> mjr: perhaps i dont understand all what you mean ^^
Mar 03 10:09:27 <mjr> yes and I was talking about a three-pronged cable with two A males and one B male
Mar 03 10:09:38 <mjr> used with that wall adapter
Mar 03 10:10:14 <mjr> and the adapters one would need to connect the neo and a gadget with power being injected from the wall socket
Mar 03 10:12:05 <PBeck> mjr: oh ok. 
Mar 03 10:12:15 <PBeck> this cable are already avaible?
Mar 03 10:12:37 <SpeedEvil> They are commonly available in some 2.5" drive cases.
Mar 03 10:12:41 <SpeedEvil> Or at least were.
Mar 03 10:13:19 <SpeedEvil> I think I've actually - somewehre - got a 2*A plugs, to mini-ab
Mar 03 10:13:53 <PBeck> that would be a nice accessories for the neo i think
Mar 03 10:13:58 <SpeedEvil> BecauseUSB ports will not reliably provide enough current for a hard disk.
Mar 03 10:14:13 <PBeck> we should look at a good modell
Mar 03 10:14:49 <PBeck> so we can perhaps speak with the manufacturer for a good price
Mar 03 10:15:18 <SpeedEvil> I'm in a couple of days probably going to order some bits to make some prototype cables. Maybe $15 per.
Mar 03 10:15:32 <PBeck> it would be very nice to connect with usb devices how printer and so on
Mar 03 10:16:24 <SpeedEvil> Also a small battery powered hub.
Mar 03 10:16:33 <SpeedEvil> not hub - cable.
Mar 03 10:16:37 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: good idea, keep me informed ;)
Mar 03 10:17:07 <SpeedEvil> I'll add a page to the wiki hardware page proll, if it becomes available.
Mar 03 10:17:16 <SpeedEvil> 'third party hardware' or something.
Mar 03 10:17:17 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: super
Mar 03 10:17:50 <SpeedEvil> Or maybe neo1973:third party hardware.
Mar 03 10:17:52 <PBeck> so i have lunch now ;) See you later 
Mar 03 10:17:57 <SpeedEvil> wave.
Mar 03 10:18:12 <PBeck> :)
Mar 03 10:31:58 <PBeck> so i am back :D
Mar 03 12:12:50 <aloril2> counter4
Mar 03 12:13:01 <aloril2> counter
Mar 03 12:13:01 <aloril> P0: a day 23:11:56 (1.967 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.967 +-10.0 (see faq) (454)
Mar 03 12:22:50 <greentux> where in the faq I can read something for P1 in 33d +-10d?
Mar 03 12:32:12 * LuitvD just couldn't resist going back here :)
Mar 03 12:32:40 <SpeedEvil>  np: Kraftwerk - We are the robots.
Mar 03 12:37:08 <aloril2> greentux: hrw estimated yesterday 4-6 weeks for P1 in this channel
Mar 03 12:45:25 <greentux> aloril2:  mmh but no official statemant by sean... 
Mar 03 12:46:00 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03laforge * r1231 10/trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb: add base-files-doc to make sure /usr/share/common-licenses is populated
Mar 03 12:51:50 <LuitvD> counter
Mar 03 12:51:50 <aloril> P0: a day 22:33:07 (1.940 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.940 +-10.0 (see faq) (455)
Mar 03 12:54:53 <bmidgley> how sure are we about p0? :)
Mar 03 12:57:13 <LuitvD> bmidgley: bmidgley as sure as a week ago... i guess
Mar 03 13:00:56 <LuitvD> hey buz 
Mar 03 13:28:07 <aloril2> greentux: fosdem video has comment by Sean
Mar 03 13:29:49 <aloril2> or look at slides: they say late March (lower limit in P1 counter is 2007-03-25)
Mar 03 13:32:20 <aloril2> P0 recipients got mail that said something like "no later than 2007-03-05"
Mar 03 14:00:48 <CoreDump|home> hi
Mar 03 14:05:58 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03laforge * r1232 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-power_control.patch: 
Mar 03 14:05:58 <CIA-7> openmoko: * the gsm 'download' pin is only present in GTA01v4 and GTA01Bv2, so only export in sysfs on
Mar 03 14:05:58 <CIA-7> openmoko:  those revisions
Mar 03 14:05:58 <CIA-7> openmoko: * add a description on the empty suspend/resume functions
Mar 03 14:30:45 <DerCorny> cheers
Mar 03 15:29:28 <buz> http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/98948396/ seems quite positive
Mar 03 15:29:39 <buz> and correct afaict
Mar 03 15:58:46 <PBeck> re
Mar 03 16:15:16 <parag0n> phase 1 is only $250?
Mar 03 16:15:22 <SpeedEvil> s/2/3/
Mar 03 16:15:44 <parag0n> thats what i thought, but that engadget link says 250
Mar 03 16:16:05 <parag0n> http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/03/03/openmoko-details-pricing-availability-for-neo1973/
Mar 03 16:16:15 <LuitvD> it's 350
Mar 03 16:16:20 <PBeck> hm nice 350 Dollar = 264.950795 Euro :D
Mar 03 16:16:23 <LuitvD> everything else says 350 ...
Mar 03 16:17:12 <LuitvD> their info is false
Mar 03 16:17:29 <LuitvD> the hackers lunchbox was indeed 200 - 250 $
Mar 03 16:17:38 <LuitvD> but that one doesn't include a phone IIRC...
Mar 03 16:17:54 <SpeedEvil> oots :)
Mar 03 16:17:54 <SpeedEvil> oops.;
Mar 03 16:18:00 <parag0n> ahhh
Mar 03 16:18:20 <LuitvD> FIC will offer the Neo1973 in two packages. A $250 "Hacker's lunchbox" comprises a development board, battery, charger, shoulder strap, USB A-B cable, and a boss-looking reinforced lunchbox container. 
Mar 03 16:18:31 <LuitvD> The "Standard Kit," priced at $350 and likely available this fall, will include a phone, battery, headset, charger, case, stylus, lanyard, microSD card, MicroUSB cable, and manual.
Mar 03 16:18:49 <LuitvD> That's what linuxdevices says...
Mar 03 16:19:10 <LuitvD> but that "hacker's lunchbox" doesn't include a phone, does it?
Mar 03 16:19:17 <atla> who say 350dollars are 264e PBeck?
Mar 03 16:19:17 <atla> s
Mar 03 16:19:39 <LuitvD> ~convert 350 USD to EUR
Mar 03 16:19:43 <atla> omg
Mar 03 16:19:52 <LuitvD> ...
Mar 03 16:19:58 <LuitvD> ~convert 350 USD in EUR
Mar 03 16:19:59 <atla> youve seen that ever happen on an electronic device?
Mar 03 16:20:04 <PBeck> atla: http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=350+Dollar+in+Euro&btnG=Google-Suche&sourceid=Mozilla-search&start=0
Mar 03 16:20:39 <PBeck> thats the official conversion rate
Mar 03 16:20:42 <atla> most electronic products cost in germany same price in euro as in american dollar
Mar 03 16:20:47 <greghunt> (stupid question) can you still hack with the standard kit?
Mar 03 16:21:36 <PBeck> atla: i hope that 350 dollar are the fixed price
Mar 03 16:21:36 <atla> most of the times products just get same pricing in euro
Mar 03 16:21:53 <atla> instead of convertion
Mar 03 16:22:04 <PBeck> i think the end price will be ca. 280 euro 
Mar 03 16:22:07 <PBeck> i hope so
Mar 03 16:22:54 <atla> look at the Wii, 250$ = 250$
Mar 03 16:22:57 <atla> bad suckers :/
Mar 03 16:23:02 <atla> oh
Mar 03 16:23:06 <atla> 250€
Mar 03 16:23:18 <PBeck> atla: 350 Euro => 462 dollar
Mar 03 16:23:25 <atla> i know
Mar 03 16:23:39 <PBeck> thats daylight robbery
Mar 03 16:23:52 <PBeck> i hope FIC will sell the phone to the normal price
Mar 03 16:23:54 <atla> thats the truth here at least
Mar 03 16:24:16 <PBeck> no differences between the countrys
Mar 03 16:25:04 <PBeck> atla: we have no official statement so we musst wait till september for the mass market
Mar 03 16:25:38 <PBeck> i think you hope too, that you only musst collect 250 Euro ;)
Mar 03 16:27:31 <parag0n> i'm hoping for £180 in the UK
Mar 03 16:27:53 <parag0n> its not going to happen, but i can always hope ;)
Mar 03 16:28:03 <PBeck>  350 U.S. dollar = 178.480367 British pound
Mar 03 16:28:08 <SpeedEvil> Look at the prices for phones with similar feature sets.
Mar 03 16:28:09 <PBeck> yes that would be nice
Mar 03 16:28:11 <SpeedEvil> It's not dissimilar.
Mar 03 16:28:19 <SpeedEvil> Apart from the camera.
Mar 03 16:28:51 * greghunt hopes for some more dollar devaluation
Mar 03 16:29:10 <PBeck> greghunt: lol
Mar 03 16:32:40 <bhz_> I will pay $20 via paypal if you DoS someone for 5 hours. will pay $4 every hour. message me if interested
Mar 03 16:32:56 * SpeedEvil is interested.
Mar 03 16:33:00 <PBeck> bhz_: lol
Mar 03 16:33:00 <peeps> i didn't see it on the wiki, but does the neo have any buttons?  I assume there is at least one for power?
Mar 03 16:33:06 * SpeedEvil thinks he still has a DOS 5.01 floppy somewhere.
Mar 03 16:33:09 <SpeedEvil> peeps 2.
Mar 03 16:33:17 <SpeedEvil> on/off, and '911'
Mar 03 16:33:18 <PBeck> peeps: two hardwarsbutton as far as i know
Mar 03 16:33:25 <PBeck> *hardwarebutton
Mar 03 16:33:40 <SpeedEvil> Mine is going to grow several more when it arrives.
Mar 03 16:33:47 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: rofl
Mar 03 16:33:50 <SpeedEvil> I need a picture of the upper case inside.
Mar 03 16:34:04 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: you buy the hackers lunchbox?
Mar 03 16:34:09 <SpeedEvil> No.
Mar 03 16:34:16 <peeps> a 911 button, really?  will it be configurable for any other uses?  sounds like it will be too easy to accidentally dial 911
Mar 03 16:34:17 * SpeedEvil has a soldering iron license.
Mar 03 16:34:30 <SpeedEvil> yes, it's totally configurable.
Mar 03 16:34:48 <PBeck> so i will pick up greghunts question
Mar 03 16:35:01 <PBeck> can i hack the phone without the lunchbox?
Mar 03 16:35:10 <SpeedEvil> Sure.
Mar 03 16:35:21 <SpeedEvil> The only reason the lunchbox is handy is the debug connecotor.
Mar 03 16:35:26 <SpeedEvil> and the debug board.
Mar 03 16:35:39 <SpeedEvil> However, that's only needed if you somehow manage to overwrite u-boot.
Mar 03 16:36:18 <PBeck> peeps: you can all do what you like. You can configure your phone for example with one number that you can call ;)
Mar 03 16:36:34 <SpeedEvil>  np: Blondie - Call me!
Mar 03 16:36:46 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: what can i do with the lunchbox in detail?
Mar 03 16:36:56 <SpeedEvil> It's got a debug board in.
Mar 03 16:37:09 <SpeedEvil> So you can play with hardware debugging through JTAG.
Mar 03 16:37:14 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: is the debug board only for the bootloader?
Mar 03 16:37:20 <SpeedEvil> No.
Mar 03 16:37:26 <peeps> Could a single application temporarily override the default functionality of the button?  Or would it be a specific setting that the user would configure each time it needs changing?
Mar 03 16:37:30 <SpeedEvil> It also exposes a serial port.
Mar 03 16:37:50 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: hardware debbuginh to find a defect component?
Mar 03 16:37:55 <SpeedEvil> and the JTAG. In practice, you should never need to use it to do 'normal' development.
Mar 03 16:38:10 <PBeck> *debbuging
Mar 03 16:38:19 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: what you will develop?
Mar 03 16:38:20 <SpeedEvil> You don't need JTAG to develop stuff on PCs, nor on the phone.
Mar 03 16:38:35 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: thats good
Mar 03 16:38:35 <SpeedEvil> Look at [[Expansion Back]]
Mar 03 16:39:34 <SpeedEvil> First cut is probably an I2C GPIO chip soldered onto the expansion pads on the PCB, and some buttons/LEDs/thumbsticks.
Mar 03 16:39:46 <PBeck> A flex cable from the microSD slot, to a full-size SD socket on the right-middle of the edge of the back of the phone (top right on the image)
Mar 03 16:39:57 <SpeedEvil> That sort of thing, yes.
Mar 03 16:40:22 <PBeck> in the basic kit is a 512 mb mircosd card right?
Mar 03 16:40:26 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Mar 03 16:40:37 <SpeedEvil> IIRC. They are really cheap now though.
Mar 03 16:41:09 <SpeedEvil> Fullsize SD gives you cheaper cards, and SDIO.
Mar 03 16:41:42 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: and intern we have a 64 mb memory?
Mar 03 16:41:44 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Mar 03 16:41:53 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: yes fullsize are cheaper
Mar 03 16:42:36 <SpeedEvil> Cheaper, and actually safe to handle :)
Mar 03 16:42:50 <PBeck> i think the neo should have a offset slot ^^
Mar 03 16:42:56 <PBeck> why safe?
Mar 03 16:43:09 <SpeedEvil> Safe, as in microSD are comparatively fragile.
Mar 03 16:43:09 <bhz_> I will pay $20 via paypal if you DoS someone for 5 hours. will pay $4 every hour. message me if interested
Mar 03 16:43:13 <SpeedEvil> Being so damn small.
Mar 03 16:43:31 <SpeedEvil> bhz_: FOAD, wrong channel.
Mar 03 16:43:54 <PBeck> but this is ok, preferably a intern slot as no one 
Mar 03 16:44:19 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: hm that sounds not good
Mar 03 16:44:24 <SpeedEvil> True - it'd be nice to share data easily.
Mar 03 16:44:39 <SpeedEvil> The cards are somewhere around 15*10mm*1mm
Mar 03 16:44:45 <PBeck> hm i will bhz ip-adress :>
Mar 03 16:45:17 <PBeck> +s ;)
Mar 03 16:46:02 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: when the hardware refresh comprised wifi we have the beste phone on the world :D
Mar 03 16:46:08 <PBeck> *best
Mar 03 16:46:12 <SpeedEvil> I want a camera too.
Mar 03 16:46:24 <SpeedEvil> Even not a great one is _very_ handy.
Mar 03 16:46:30 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: hm i think wifi ist usefuller ;)
Mar 03 16:46:38 <SpeedEvil> Gesture interfaces, reading barcodes, ...
Mar 03 16:46:59 <PBeck> hm ok nice ideas
Mar 03 16:47:17 <PBeck> perhaps we can add a camera extern, but we need a power plug 
Mar 03 16:47:58 <PBeck> respectively the camera musst powered
Mar 03 16:48:49 <PBeck> but i think wifi, gps would be very nice for the first model
Mar 03 16:49:32 <PBeck> linux without network is how a biker without a bike ^^
Mar 03 16:50:33 <Lumpio-> Exactly :I
Mar 03 16:50:37 <Lumpio-> That's what really annoys me
Mar 03 16:50:48 <Lumpio-> The phone runs Linux, which has awesome networking features
Mar 03 16:51:10 <Lumpio-> But the only ways to get connected to the Internet is GPRS, which is slower than a 56k modem or Bluetooth which requires you to stand within 10m from the five Bluetooth Internet APs in the entire /world/.
Mar 03 16:51:17 <Lumpio-> one of the five*
Mar 03 16:52:19 <Lumpio-> My ideal phone would be the current model + wifi + camera + slightly larger screen + actual buttons (touchscreen only is kinda limited for... games)
Mar 03 16:52:32 <Lumpio-> EDGE or something wouldn't hurt either
Mar 03 16:53:07 <PBeck> Lumpio-: we have two hardwarebuttons
Mar 03 16:53:31 <Lumpio-> Yeah, one of which is the power button
Mar 03 16:53:38 <PBeck> yes?
Mar 03 16:53:47 <PBeck> what is the other?
Mar 03 16:54:02 <PBeck> Lumpio-: wifi can be in the hardware refresh in june
Mar 03 16:54:04 <Lumpio-> A general-purpose one?
Mar 03 16:54:05 <Lumpio-> I really like the idea on the wishlist page about having directional buttons on one side of the screen and some action buttons on the other side (like a game controller)
Mar 03 16:54:15 <PBeck> Lumpio-: bluetooth would be a option at home
Mar 03 16:54:21 <Lumpio-> Indeed it would
Mar 03 16:54:37 <Lumpio-> Wouldn't be too hard to plug a Bluetooth dongle into the server... the range covers the whole house methinks
Mar 03 16:54:51 <Lumpio-> And I'm asking for a lot :P I said that would be "my ideal phone", but true idealness rarely happens IRL.
Mar 03 16:55:12 <Lumpio-> Not saying "you better implement all that or I'll be very angry and bad things will happen"
Mar 03 16:56:07 <Lumpio-> Hm, what is that hole doing in the phone btw?
Mar 03 16:56:07 <PBeck> i think the neo with openmoko gps and wifi would be come near to my ideal phone ^^
Mar 03 16:56:24 <PBeck> which hole?
Mar 03 16:56:38 <Lumpio-> http://www.gadgets-reviews.com/images/gadget-moko-2.gif <- that one
Mar 03 16:57:10 <PBeck> at the bottom?
Mar 03 16:57:12 <Lumpio-> Yes
Mar 03 16:57:37 <SpeedEvil> the hole is a lanyard attach point.
Mar 03 16:57:46 <PBeck> you can i hang on your neck ;)
Mar 03 16:57:47 <SpeedEvil> If you mean the big one next to the screen.
Mar 03 16:57:49 <PBeck> it
Mar 03 16:57:53 <Lumpio-> I guessed that but isn't that a bit huge for a lanyard >_>
Mar 03 16:58:08 <SpeedEvil> It's actually the GSM antenna.
Mar 03 16:58:18 <SpeedEvil> The round bit.
Mar 03 16:58:29 <Lumpio-> I think that hole is a nice place for an image sensor ;)
Mar 03 16:58:32 <SpeedEvil> Which is a bit silly - as the GPS points downwards.
Mar 03 16:59:02 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: what you mean with the gps points?
Mar 03 16:59:06 <PBeck> how downwards?
Mar 03 16:59:19 <Lumpio-> Ah well, I'll probably end up buying some version anyways... can't really see better phones ATM
Mar 03 16:59:40 <SpeedEvil> the GPS antenna, when you have it hanging on the lanyard points down.
Mar 03 16:59:51 <PBeck> Lumpio-: i too. i would that the project will be a success
Mar 03 17:00:00 <SpeedEvil> Satellites, by definition are sort of upwards, so it's a compromise :)
Mar 03 17:00:10 <PBeck> i will ...
Mar 03 17:00:23 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: hä?
Mar 03 17:00:38 <PBeck> my typos are very bad -.-
Mar 03 17:02:57 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: oh ok i understand -.-
Mar 03 17:03:27 <PBeck> the antenna musst point to the satellites ...
Mar 03 17:03:45 <SpeedEvil> It will sort-of-work, it won't be as accurate as if it was the right way up.
Mar 03 17:03:54 <Lumpio-> Hm, actually, speaking of GPS
Mar 03 17:03:55 <SpeedEvil> As it won't pick up the overhead ones.
Mar 03 17:03:59 <Lumpio-> Does the phone have a compass sensor? o_O
Mar 03 17:04:02 <SpeedEvil> No.
Mar 03 17:04:07 <PBeck> i didnt see your post above ..
Mar 03 17:04:24 <Lumpio-> It would be incredibly neat to be able to hold the phone horizontally and have a map on the screen automagically turn the right way.
Mar 03 17:04:33 <SpeedEvil> 3 axes fluxgate would be _very_ cool.
Mar 03 17:04:39 <PBeck> Lumpio-: i a compass possible with the coordinates?
Mar 03 17:04:42 <SpeedEvil> Though in practice...
Mar 03 17:04:50 <Lumpio-> PBeck: Nah, GPS only gives you a position
Mar 03 17:04:51 <SpeedEvil> You can get heading from the GPS.
Mar 03 17:04:55 <Lumpio-> If you keep moving you can get a heading
Mar 03 17:04:56 <SpeedEvil> if you're moving.
Mar 03 17:05:02 <Lumpio-> But if you turn while standing still...
Mar 03 17:05:08 <PBeck> i walk few meters in all directions
Mar 03 17:05:28 <SpeedEvil> The only way to fix that would be either a compass, or gyros.
Mar 03 17:05:29 <PBeck> how exactly is the gps chip?
Mar 03 17:05:37 <SpeedEvil> How exactly?
Mar 03 17:06:07 <SpeedEvil> Integrated gyros are available in very small packages, for $10 or so, but still...
Mar 03 17:06:07 <PBeck> i mean how exactly can i locate my position
Mar 03 17:06:19 <SpeedEvil> 5m in 1s.
Mar 03 17:06:34 <SpeedEvil> Probably 2-3m over 10s averaging.
Mar 03 17:06:43 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: ok then i walk 10 m in every direction and i have my compas
Mar 03 17:06:43 <PBeck> s
Mar 03 17:06:44 <SpeedEvil> And sub 1 meter if you average for 12 hours.
Mar 03 17:06:50 <PBeck> i think that would be a nice application
Mar 03 17:07:15 <SpeedEvil> Under .5m may be possible if differential GPS can be done. But this requires a network link.
Mar 03 17:08:00 <Lumpio-> Actually, how much of GPS error is "random"?
Mar 03 17:08:15 <SpeedEvil> Complex.
Mar 03 17:08:22 <PBeck> what you mean with differential GPS?
Mar 03 17:08:36 <SpeedEvil> The major source of error is the upper atmosphere.
Mar 03 17:08:36 <Lumpio-> I mean, if you move "slowly enough" the errors caused by the atmosphere and everything would be quite much constant, right?
Mar 03 17:08:37 <SpeedEvil> This introduces systematic per-satellite errors.
Mar 03 17:09:02 <SpeedEvil> I wrote this up on the wiki - look up [[agps]] and the bit on dgps, and the link.
Mar 03 17:09:08 <SpeedEvil> Briefly.
Mar 03 17:09:17 <SpeedEvil> DGPS is a local 'ionospheric weather' forecast.
Mar 03 17:09:30 <SpeedEvil> That lets you predict the ripples in the atmosphere.
Mar 03 17:09:39 <SpeedEvil> And get sub-metre predictions.
Mar 03 17:10:43 <borg_> counter
Mar 03 17:10:43 <aloril> P0: a day 18:14:12 (1.760 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.760 +-10.0 (see faq) (456)
Mar 03 17:11:26 <PBeck> hm ok is it so possible to walk a few meter so find the direction?
Mar 03 17:11:27 <Lumpio-> Hm
Mar 03 17:11:39 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Mar 03 17:11:46 <Lumpio-> Take one phone with a mobile data connection, camera and GPS, put it onto a robot... WORLD DOMINATION right from your own home!
Mar 03 17:12:08 <Lumpio-> Remote controllable no matter where in the world it is \o/ (Well, almost)
Mar 03 17:12:28 <LuitvD> :P
Mar 03 17:12:51 <PBeck> Lumpio-: lol
Mar 03 17:12:52 <Stephmw> isn't that the idea behind some of the X10 stuff?
Mar 03 17:13:00 <LuitvD> my robot can possibly carry a neo...
Mar 03 17:13:02 <SpeedEvil> X10 is local-only.
Mar 03 17:13:17 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: where can i see your robot?
Mar 03 17:13:26 * SpeedEvil has no robot!
Mar 03 17:13:54 <Lumpio-> I don't have a robot either :(
Mar 03 17:13:59 <Lumpio-> (Legos don't count >_>)
Mar 03 17:14:04 <Lumpio-> Need to build one.
Mar 03 17:14:31 <PBeck> oh ok wrong nick ^^
Mar 03 17:14:43 <Lumpio-> You know it would be quite possible to build a remote-controllable robot that can "survive" for a long time without maintenance
Mar 03 17:14:52 <Lumpio-> Have it charge off any outlets you find
Mar 03 17:15:01 <Lumpio-> (Okay, assuming nobody breaks it >_>)
Mar 03 17:15:37 <peeps> what do you guys think of this idea: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#Vibrate_Pattern_Recorder
Mar 03 17:15:43 <peeps> i just added it
Mar 03 17:16:08 <denis^weg> LuitvD, did you got reply ? :D
Mar 03 17:16:16 <denis^weg> (everyday the same question :) )
Mar 03 17:16:36 <Lumpio-> peeps: Heh, seems easy enough to code :P
Mar 03 17:16:41 <SpeedEvil> peeps: sounds not insane.
Mar 03 17:16:47 <LuitvD> denis^weg: every day the same answer also
Mar 03 17:16:51 <peeps> lol, not insane is good
Mar 03 17:16:55 <LuitvD> denis^weg: which is: not yet
Mar 03 17:17:35 <PBeck> hm anybody can add the compas :D
Mar 03 17:17:52 <PBeck> peeps: nice idea
Mar 03 17:18:02 <PBeck> i think thats new ;)
Mar 03 17:18:16 <SpeedEvil> Consider that accellerometer and compass and gyros would cost around $50 all-in.
Mar 03 17:18:25 <Lumpio-> Ouch
Mar 03 17:18:31 <SpeedEvil> That would add $100 to the sticker.
Mar 03 17:18:37 * Lumpio- would settle for just a compass
Mar 03 17:18:56 <peeps> i think an accelerometer chip is only like $5, probably less in mess
Mar 03 17:18:57 <SpeedEvil> And I don't want a compass at all, just an accellerometer.
Mar 03 17:19:07 <Lumpio-> oo
Mar 03 17:19:08 <peeps> s/mess/mass
Mar 03 17:19:35 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: hm we dont need a compass extra. But when we have gps its very easy
Mar 03 17:19:55 <PBeck> we only musst analyse the coordinates
Mar 03 17:20:26 <SpeedEvil> The gyros and compass are more expensive than the accellerometer.
Mar 03 17:20:26 <SpeedEvil> The accellrometer is indeed around that in bulk.
Mar 03 17:20:26 <SpeedEvil> A compass is a nice addition to GPS.
Mar 03 17:20:54 <SpeedEvil> Being able to simply swing round, and get your heading directly, rather than having to walk in the direction makes it considerably easier.
Mar 03 17:24:18 <Lumpio-> Having a map automatically turn in the right direction or having an arrow point at your destination would be incredibly neat.
Mar 03 17:24:24 <PBeck> you can swing your neo with your arm 5 m around you? 
Mar 03 17:24:28 <Lumpio-> lol
Mar 03 17:25:04 <PBeck> Lumpio-: where you get the map?
Mar 03 17:26:47 <peeps> http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CADXL330%2C00.html
Mar 03 17:29:17 <CoreDump|home> anyone else having problems compiling / configuring gconf-osso?
Mar 03 17:29:22 <peeps> with an accelerometer, you could make the phone scream for it's life while in freefall.  lol
Mar 03 17:30:12 <LuitvD> hehehe
Mar 03 17:30:32 <CoreDump|home> I can see the headlines: "The last sound you will ever hear!"
Mar 03 17:30:35 <PBeck> peeps: rofl
Mar 03 17:30:43 <LuitvD> lolz
Mar 03 17:31:26 <Lumpio-> PBeck: Where I'd get the map? I'd probably steal it from Google Maps.
Mar 03 17:31:39 <Lumpio-> Or this Finnish equivalent (has better street maps for Finland :P)
Mar 03 17:34:03 <PBeck> Lumpio-: ok but you dont can use the maps with gps
Mar 03 17:34:27 <PBeck> the neo have a micrphone?
Mar 03 17:35:15 <peeps> hehe, well, it is a phone...
Mar 03 17:35:34 <PBeck> omg rofl
Mar 03 17:35:41 <PBeck> yes you are right
Mar 03 17:35:47 <PBeck> i am silly :P
Mar 03 17:36:18 <Lumpio-> PBeck: Why can't I use the maps with GPS
Mar 03 17:36:33 <PBeck> is this possible?
Mar 03 17:36:38 <Lumpio-> Um, of course?
Mar 03 17:36:44 <PBeck> how?
Mar 03 17:36:50 <Lumpio-> Why not
Mar 03 17:36:51 <PBeck> without a data connection?
Mar 03 17:36:59 <Lumpio-> Duh, of course with a data connection
Mar 03 17:37:22 <Lumpio-> Even GPRS is fast enough for this
Mar 03 17:37:56 <PBeck> then it is not a good option, when you havent a flatrate ...
Mar 03 17:38:17 * Lumpio- has flatrate
Mar 03 17:39:28 <PBeck> a phone flatrate is expensive beside a flaterate for the pc at least in germany
Mar 03 17:39:51 <Lumpio-> Well I'm talking about a map software that's suitable for me, of course
Mar 03 17:40:00 <Lumpio-> I'm not sure if I'd even want to distribute software that leeches off Google Maps
Mar 03 17:40:03 <Lumpio-> They don't like it
Mar 03 17:40:19 <Lumpio-> I can get flatrate GPRS for 10€/month here in Finland
Mar 03 17:40:55 <PBeck> that sounds good
Mar 03 17:41:00 <PBeck> here 15 euro or more
Mar 03 17:41:01 <peeps> it is possible to put coordinates into google maps though
Mar 03 17:41:04 <peeps> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37%2057%2011.98%20N%20121%2005%2015.76%20W
Mar 03 17:41:35 <Lumpio-> Why not?
Mar 03 17:41:39 <Lumpio-> It's just some maths :P
Mar 03 17:41:53 <LuitvD> peeps: these coördinates are more interesting: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=38%C2%B013%2736.38%22N,+112%C2%B017%2756.59%22W&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=38.22631,-112.298598&spn=0.002019,0.005332&t=k&om=1&iwloc=addr
Mar 03 17:41:54 <PBeck> peeps: yes with a data connection it will very easy
Mar 03 17:41:54 <Lumpio-> Google does it, of course anybody else can do it too
Mar 03 17:42:55 <LuitvD> a bloody cruise missile, in google maps :)
Mar 03 17:43:14 <PBeck> openstreetmap is a nice project, but it will be hard work for a few maps
Mar 03 17:43:44 <Lumpio-> It's too bad that there are no truly free maps out there :\ That cover more than a little of the globe :P
Mar 03 17:43:50 <peeps> wow, is that really a missile?
Mar 03 17:43:50 * Lumpio- lives in the middle of nowhere
Mar 03 17:44:13 <peeps> wonder where it was headed...
Mar 03 17:44:14 <LuitvD> peeps: it's a cruisemissile, yes :)
Mar 03 17:44:22 <LuitvD> a real one
Mar 03 17:44:33 <LuitvD> maybe without a payload, but it's flying :)
Mar 03 17:44:42 <Lumpio-> It's probably headed to a... test site :P
Mar 03 17:46:57 <PBeck> Lumpio-: you can make maps for finnland ;)
Mar 03 17:47:01 <Lumpio-> -_-
Mar 03 17:47:06 <Lumpio-> Too lazy to
Mar 03 17:47:10 <PBeck> from all big cities :>
Mar 03 17:47:14 <Lumpio-> I'm a coder, not a cartographist...
Mar 03 17:47:28 <PBeck> :D
Mar 03 17:47:44 <GaKkGaKk> The missile was propably heading for lunch.
Mar 03 17:48:02 <LuitvD> lol
Mar 03 17:48:04 <GaKkGaKk> From launch to lunch in just 10 minutes.
Mar 03 17:48:13 <peeps> XD
Mar 03 17:49:51 <PBeck> rofl
Mar 03 17:50:17 <Lumpio-> o_O
Mar 03 17:51:10 <PBeck> hm we can buy commercial maps from tomtom or other manufacturs
Mar 03 17:51:23 <Lumpio-> They cost mone
Mar 03 17:51:24 <PBeck> its only a price question
Mar 03 17:51:24 <Lumpio-> y
Mar 03 17:51:26 * Lumpio- does not like
Mar 03 17:51:38 <peeps> most maps come from navteq anyways.  google, yahoo, etc
Mar 03 17:51:42 <PBeck> Lumpio-: then you cant buy the neo
Mar 03 17:51:46 <Lumpio-> lol
Mar 03 17:51:47 <PBeck> that cost money too :P
Mar 03 17:51:55 <Lumpio-> No I mean
Mar 03 17:52:01 <PBeck> Lumpio-: what you mean :P
Mar 03 17:52:05 <Lumpio-> Good enough maps are available for free at maps.google.com
Mar 03 17:52:07 <Lumpio-> Why pay for them
Mar 03 17:52:07 <PBeck> say it me ;)
Mar 03 17:52:14 <Lumpio-> Of course hardware costs money
Mar 03 17:52:17 <Lumpio-> Maps are not hardware
Mar 03 17:52:25 <PBeck> Lumpio-: you pay for your flatrate ;)
Mar 03 17:52:44 <Lumpio-> Because there is no free service.
Mar 03 17:53:30 <PBeck> yes of course
Mar 03 17:53:39 <PBeck> how maps => anybody musst create the maps
Mar 03 17:53:53 <Lumpio-> o_O
Mar 03 17:53:57 <PBeck> when we create them that are free of course
Mar 03 17:54:04 <Lumpio-> Well yeah, but they're still "free" to be downloaded from maps.google.com...
Mar 03 17:54:21 * Lumpio- doesn't really care about their TOS and whatever... what you put on the web is free for anybody to download
Mar 03 17:54:35 <Lumpio-> They're not going to notice my client's requests if I make them look like ones created by their software :P
Mar 03 17:54:49 <Lumpio-> With the correct Referer and User-agent headers they won't be able to tell the difference >_>
Mar 03 17:54:53 <PBeck> Lumpio-: can we legal use the material from google in our applications?
Mar 03 17:54:57 <Lumpio-> No, you can't
Mar 03 17:55:03 <Lumpio-> That's why I wouldn't distribute my map software.
Mar 03 17:55:22 <PBeck> Lumpio-: yes ok ...
Mar 03 17:55:40 <PBeck> we muss find a better solution for all, perhaps we have later a good idea ;)
Mar 03 17:55:46 <PBeck> i go now eating ;)
Mar 03 17:55:47 <Lumpio-> Yeah, it's not very nice considering the community but it's not nice to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Google either >_>
Mar 03 17:55:50 <PBeck> see you later
Mar 03 17:55:56 <Lumpio-> Byes
Mar 03 17:56:00 <PBeck> Lumpio-: yes of course
Mar 03 17:59:17 <peeps> Looks like maps for GPS devices cost about 99USD from navteq
Mar 03 18:00:29 <peeps> if there was software to read them, it would be a nice option for some.  would not require a connection
Mar 03 18:01:33 <peeps> i don't think there will ever be good free & legal maps for complete download.
Mar 03 18:02:04 <peeps> I imagine it takes an enormous amount of effort to make them and keep up to date
Mar 03 18:05:13 <SpeedEvil> Cheap satellites will happen eventually.
Mar 03 18:05:17 <SpeedEvil> Which helps.
Mar 03 18:05:40 <peeps> well, ok for satellite data, but I think there has to be people to enter all the road data
Mar 03 18:05:44 <SpeedEvil> True.
Mar 03 18:06:04 <SpeedEvil> You can pickup the locations of the roads - sort-of-reliably, given good imagery.
Mar 03 18:06:22 <SpeedEvil> Getting the names requires better resolution :)
Mar 03 18:06:39 <SpeedEvil> It'd be a whole lot easier if they'd just write the names on the roads.
Mar 03 18:09:06 <peeps> lol
Mar 03 18:09:27 <GaKkGaKk> Although you would keep getting "car" i rodnames.
Mar 03 18:09:36 <GaKkGaKk> s/rod/road
Mar 03 18:17:23 <PBeck> re
Mar 03 18:17:33 <LuitvD> re?
Mar 03 18:18:45 <PBeck> returned
Mar 03 18:27:22 <PBeck> have all map services a clause to use the data only with they clients of the services?
Mar 03 18:27:47 <PBeck> or from the services
Mar 03 18:30:33 <SpeedEvil> Pretty much all of them say 'only use online'.
Mar 03 18:30:36 <SpeedEvil> or equivalent.
Mar 03 18:30:47 <SpeedEvil> The reason is the underlying data providers require that.
Mar 03 18:30:51 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03werner * r1233 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-backlight.patch: 
Mar 03 18:30:51 <CIA-7> openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_init_hw): removed mysterious
Mar 03 18:30:51 <CIA-7> openmoko:  initialization sequence
Mar 03 18:30:51 <CIA-7> openmoko: drivers/video/backlight/gta01_bl.c (gta01bl_init_hw): reordered TC??B vs. TCON
Mar 03 18:30:51 <CIA-7> openmoko:  according to manual (page 10-5)
Mar 03 18:31:42 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: is it then ok, when you write your own client?
Mar 03 18:31:50 <SpeedEvil> No.
Mar 03 18:31:53 <PBeck> that it use online too
Mar 03 18:32:05 <PBeck> no save from the map or so on
Mar 03 18:32:05 <SpeedEvil> It's not - go and read up the terms and conditions.
Mar 03 18:32:20 <SpeedEvil> getnerally, you are not permitted to save maps and use them in other than the browser.
Mar 03 18:32:25 <SpeedEvil> The exact terms are more complex.
Mar 03 18:33:12 <PBeck> ok that answer "and use  them in other than the browser.
Mar 03 18:33:14 <PBeck> "
Mar 03 18:33:32 <PBeck> answered my question
Mar 03 18:36:17 <peeps> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#GSM_Sidetone_too_loud  I wonder if the sidetone could ever be user configurable
Mar 03 18:37:00 <peeps> says it is in GSM firmware, which I think is "untouchable"
Mar 03 18:37:57 <PBeck> hm ok i think the best solution is to create the maps self
Mar 03 18:38:17 <CoreDump|home> peeps: it isn't untouchable. From what I read it _could_ be updated "In The Field" but OM isn't allow to hand out firmware blobs
Mar 03 18:38:18 <PBeck> i hope that the openstreetmap project will be grow ^^
Mar 03 18:39:18 <PBeck> -be
Mar 03 18:39:24 <SpeedEvil> I'd be willing to pay a reasonable amount for map data.
Mar 03 18:40:12 <SpeedEvil> I think you need to have TI  bless new blobs.
Mar 03 18:41:33 <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lunar-eclipse-2004.jpg nice composite.
Mar 03 18:42:15 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: i am too
Mar 03 18:42:22 <PBeck> but we musst look
Mar 03 18:42:26 <SpeedEvil> oops - mischan - the image.
Mar 03 18:42:32 <PBeck> first gps is good to mark points
Mar 03 18:42:42 <PBeck> and track your way
Mar 03 18:43:24 <PBeck> so i look now a movie
Mar 03 18:43:26 <PBeck> see you later
Mar 03 18:43:31 <SpeedEvil> Even simple direction to target is good navigation.
Mar 03 18:43:47 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: yes i think so too
Mar 03 18:43:56 <PBeck> we only need a good and easy application
Mar 03 18:44:05 <PBeck> so get the direction
Mar 03 18:44:31 <PBeck> log coordinates and mark points
Mar 03 18:44:41 <PBeck> s/so/to
Mar 03 19:18:08 <peeps> I have an idea for another use case for this page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/PIM_Storage
Mar 03 19:18:21 <peeps> I don't know if it's ok for me to add to that, or if I should put it on the wishlist
Mar 03 19:22:40 <nnpiggy> The basic principle of wikis is to just edit.
Mar 03 19:24:37 <peeps> ok, i just wasn't sure if some pages were supposed to be more official than other
Mar 03 19:29:43 <SpeedEvil> In general, feel free, unless it is clearly something that you know nothing about.
Mar 03 19:32:31 <peeps> does someone know what the effective range might be between two neo1973 devices over bluetooth?
Mar 03 19:32:38 <peeps> about 30 feet?
Mar 03 19:32:38 <SpeedEvil> 10m 
Mar 03 19:32:45 <SpeedEvil> for the class of devices in the neo.
Mar 03 19:33:07 <SpeedEvil> probably 5m, if you want to take into account the 'users facing away from each other' case.
Mar 03 19:34:30 <peeps> are there regulations against putting class 3 chips in devices like this?
Mar 03 19:34:36 <SpeedEvil> Power.
Mar 03 19:35:08 <peeps> could a class 3 chip run in class 2 mode most of the time?
Mar 03 19:35:20 <SpeedEvil> I don't know.
Mar 03 19:35:30 <SpeedEvil> Also expense and size I think.
Mar 03 19:35:49 <SpeedEvil> Plus, it might interfere with the GPS or GSM bits if too strong.
Mar 03 19:36:22 <peeps> i just have this kind of silly idea of using the devices as a walkie talkie over bluetooth.  but the range is so short that you would probably be able to just talk directly to the person
Mar 03 19:36:35 <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately, yes.
Mar 03 19:37:20 <peeps> the minutes are free though!
Mar 03 20:35:05 <emulsion> is there a firm date now for March release of neo1973 hardware for purchase?  I know there have been some delays recently
Mar 03 20:35:36 <SpeedEvil> Late march.
Mar 03 20:35:45 <SpeedEvil> Is a bout as good as it gets.
Mar 03 20:35:48 <emulsion> thx
Mar 03 20:38:12 <PBeck> peeps: walkie talkie nice ;)
Mar 03 20:38:30 <PBeck> perhaps, when wifi is avaible you can voip ;)
Mar 03 20:39:37 <SpeedEvil> Or there could be a bluetooth loudhailer.
Mar 03 20:40:05 <peeps> what is a loudhailer?
Mar 03 20:40:17 <SpeedEvil> Megaphone 
Mar 03 20:40:29 <PBeck> http://www.picsuk.com/images/loudhailer.gif <= loudhailer ;)
Mar 03 20:40:44 <peeps> man, i can't stop thinking about all the crazy applications that are possible
Mar 03 20:41:22 <PBeck> that would grow to a big hole, when wifi will be in the device ^^
Mar 03 20:41:48 <PBeck> then you never cant stop ^^
Mar 03 20:42:33 <peeps> like during a call you could specify to have audio output sent along with your voice.  could play part of a song for someone, etc
Mar 03 20:43:43 <peeps> or have a soundboard of audio clips and sound effects.  (if anyone has heard the arnold schwarzenegger prank calls for example)
Mar 03 20:44:00 <SpeedEvil> soundboard has problems.
Mar 03 20:44:02 <Psi_> heh
Mar 03 20:44:13 <SpeedEvil> you have to take phone away from ear to press one.
Mar 03 20:44:33 <peeps> well, wear a headset ;)
Mar 03 20:47:06 <peeps> another idea is that the phone could recognize certain whistles or something(maybe clapper style), to aid in finding it.
Mar 03 20:47:21 <peeps> that might just waste battery though, processing the mic constantly
Mar 03 20:49:55 <PBeck> peeps: you mean that you find the name of a song out?
Mar 03 20:50:37 <peeps> no, i mean to find your phone when you lose it.  you could program it to recognize a particular call, and it would respond "I'm over here"
Mar 03 20:50:58 <PBeck> ah ok yes that would be nice
Mar 03 20:51:20 <PBeck> but its easier, you can call the phone :P
Mar 03 20:51:41 <peeps> yeah, i know... they can't all be perfect ideas 
Mar 03 20:52:39 <peeps> also, maybe you could attach an infrared LED to the headphone port, and use it as a universal remote.
Mar 03 20:55:23 <PBeck> peeps: that should be possible with the 2.5 audio jack
Mar 03 20:55:35 <PBeck> i have read about in the mailinglist
Mar 03 20:55:37 <PBeck> one moment
Mar 03 20:56:52 <PBeck> http://features.engadget.com/2004/07/27/how-to-turn-your-ipod-in-to-a-universal-infrared-remote-control/ <= peeps 
Mar 03 20:58:46 <PBeck> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001571.html <= peeps i have search the mail for you
Mar 03 21:00:27 <PBeck> perhaps you find that interresting ;)
Mar 03 21:02:05 <peeps> very cool, thanks for the links
Mar 03 21:02:36 <PBeck> i think that would be a good option wihout a big convert of the neo
Mar 03 21:05:31 <PBeck> peeps: perhaps we can advance the good idea
Mar 03 21:06:33 <peeps> what do you mean?  what should we do?
Mar 03 21:07:45 <SpeedEvil> It's already on the wiki
Mar 03 21:07:57 <SpeedEvil> search on infrared on the hardware ideas page.
Mar 03 21:08:58 <PBeck> hm good question. The neo should able to record direct from a remote control, but thats not easy over a output ;)
Mar 03 21:09:06 <PBeck> +be
Mar 03 21:10:00 <peeps> PBeck: well, the 2.5 audio jack is in/out, so you could theoretically record IR samples with it too
Mar 03 21:10:08 <PBeck> or we can read out a remote controll with many code that we can add direct on the neo
Mar 03 21:10:11 <SpeedEvil> Go and look up SIR/FIR
Mar 03 21:10:21 <SpeedEvil> It's standard and fast infrared ports.
Mar 03 21:10:26 <PBeck> peeps: cool
Mar 03 21:10:36 <PBeck> i dont know that
Mar 03 21:10:52 <SpeedEvil> It's quite possible to read sstandard remotes
Mar 03 21:10:54 <peeps> SpeedEvil: yeah, i didn't see that before.  that is talking about having it built into future hardware releases though.  using the audio jack is something that could be done with current hardware
Mar 03 21:10:56 <SpeedEvil> and write the outputs.
Mar 03 21:11:22 <SpeedEvil> Actually not - the frequency is too fast - you'd need _some_ smarts.
Mar 03 21:13:00 <PBeck> :(
Mar 03 21:14:13 <Elrond> counter
Mar 03 21:14:13 <aloril> P0: a day 14:10:43 (1.591 +-1.0 days);  P1: 33.591 +-10.0 (see faq) (457)
Mar 03 21:14:31 <peeps> do you know what the frequency of the neo hardware is? for audio jack input and output?
Mar 03 21:16:54 <peeps> IR remotes mostly work on 38Khz i think
Mar 03 21:17:02 <Psi_> you can use one audio channel to output enough power to run a 555 timer at 40hkz then use the other channel to turn the timer on/off
Mar 03 21:17:38 <Psi_> although, some sound chips dont like you to leave a channel at fullscale for to long
Mar 03 21:18:31 <Psi_> might even be able to use the mic channel to read IR codes into the neo
Mar 03 21:19:36 <Psi_> err ment to say 40kHz
Mar 03 21:20:28 <PBeck> direct readout would be the best
Mar 03 21:20:55 <PBeck> perhaps we can create a database with the "songs"
Mar 03 21:21:37 <Psi_> just make an application that generates the codes itself, no need to store them as sounds
Mar 03 21:21:39 <PBeck> the first problem is how we can build this "tool"
Mar 03 21:22:01 <Psi_> its a neo, you dont need to use hacks to get around stuff like you do with the ipod
Mar 03 21:22:03 <peeps> http://lirc.sourceforge.net/remotes/
Mar 03 21:22:04 <Psi_> :)
Mar 03 21:22:04 <PBeck> get the leds the power over the audio jack?
Mar 03 21:22:21 <Psi_> PBeck, yea, we dont have a choice
Mar 03 21:22:53 <PBeck> i am not the hardware geek so i dont know if the audio jack have power ;)
Mar 03 21:23:12 <Psi_> na, afaik they have ground, 2 output channels and 1 input channel (mic)
Mar 03 21:24:25 <peeps> I would think the audio signal is enough to power an led.  It can power a headphone speaker, so...
Mar 03 21:24:51 <PBeck> Psi_: wow very nice :) We need the hardware and a software that they can use lirc 
Mar 03 21:25:07 <Psi_> i seem to remember the sound on the neo was 1Watt per channel,   1 watt / 3.7volts = 270mA
Mar 03 21:25:12 <PBeck> Psi_ und peeps yes you are right
Mar 03 21:25:16 <Psi_> assuming it uses that voltage
Mar 03 21:26:13 <PBeck> yes
Mar 03 21:28:06 <PBeck> http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/1364949848426816.JPG?0.5853767793427668 <= hm anybody a idea how that can work
Mar 03 21:28:09 <PBeck> what is inside?
Mar 03 21:28:34 <Psi_> i know 2 ways it "could" work, dunno which its using though
Mar 03 21:29:02 <peeps> Psi_ concerning voltage, I think most IR leds are around 1.5.  maybe that is why the ipod example link used 2 LEDs
Mar 03 21:29:18 <Psi_> yes, i just checked that too
Mar 03 21:29:34 <Psi_> two also gives you more range
Mar 03 21:30:12 <peeps> PBeck: i doubt there is anything inside that except for two LEDs wired in series
Mar 03 21:30:45 <PBeck> yes?
Mar 03 21:31:05 <PBeck> so easy?
Mar 03 21:31:30 <Psi_> most soundcards can do 44.1kHz which is high enough to generate the 40khz carrier freq
Mar 03 21:32:03 <Psi_> doing it that way then yes, you just connect the led directly to the audio connector
Mar 03 21:32:46 <PBeck> than we can realise this idea i think :)
Mar 03 21:33:08 <Psi_> people are definitely going to do this
Mar 03 21:33:12 <Psi_> its been talked about before
Mar 03 21:33:25 <PBeck> Psi_: yes on the mailinglist
Mar 03 21:33:32 <Psi_> i reckon it would be  better to put the leds inside the neo and cut a small hole to poke the led through
Mar 03 21:33:49 <Psi_> even if you did connect them up to the audio connector inside
Mar 03 21:34:02 <PBeck> that was the reason why i have posted it to peeps ;)
Mar 03 21:34:27 <Psi_> side effect would be that your neo would act as a JAMMING device for IR systems when you were playing any music/mp3s etc.. :P
Mar 03 21:34:53 <PBeck> rofl
Mar 03 21:34:57 <Psi_> since it would always be outputting ir data when the soundcard was being used. even for music
Mar 03 21:35:05 <peeps> Psi_ yeah that would be a sweet hack.  while you were at it, you could add a little mini switch to enable/disable it
Mar 03 21:35:15 <Psi_> yeah,i think that would be a good idea
Mar 03 21:35:23 <greghunt> being able to easily hardware mod the neo might be a nice feature
Mar 03 21:35:41 <greghunt> have a few connectors for people to solder stuff to
Mar 03 21:35:43 <PBeck> Psi_: when it is in the case we musst change it
Mar 03 21:35:53 <PBeck> thats not for all a good option
Mar 03 21:36:17 <Psi_> your not making much sense PBeck
Mar 03 21:37:03 <PBeck> hm what you mean? my english? 
Mar 03 21:37:26 <Psi_> yeah
Mar 03 21:37:41 <peeps> i think he is saying that not everyone wants to cut holes in their brand new $350 device
Mar 03 21:37:49 <Psi_> oh, yeah
Mar 03 21:37:55 <PBeck> yes exactly :D
Mar 03 21:37:56 <Psi_> <-- will
Mar 03 21:38:11 <PBeck> sorry. i work on my english. 
Mar 03 21:39:25 <SpeedEvil> I suggested a connector for the needed wires, to make [[expansion back]] work better - but it seems not to be happening at least for P1.
Mar 03 21:39:57 <PBeck> when my sentence contain mistakes you can say that to me ;) I can only become better ^^
Mar 03 21:40:03 <Psi_> i hope we get some sold points inside on the pcb that are just general i/o
Mar 03 21:40:09 <Psi_> sold=solder
Mar 03 21:41:08 <peeps> Psi_ yes that would be nice
Mar 03 21:41:24 <PBeck> peeps: you can good translate my funny language ^^
Mar 03 21:41:52 <SpeedEvil> You don't really need GPIO, if you have I2C.
Mar 03 21:41:58 <SpeedEvil> I2C/SPI is so cool.
Mar 03 21:42:07 <SpeedEvil> Tehre is so much available from it.
Mar 03 21:42:53 <SpeedEvil> Connecting GPIO chips to it is easy.
Mar 03 21:43:18 <Psi_> i think the point is that you would need a I2C>GPIO chip in the first place
Mar 03 21:43:26 <Psi_> not exactly alot of room inside there
Mar 03 21:43:41 <SpeedEvil> There is lots.
Mar 03 21:43:45 <Psi_> for an expansion module yes, i2c, but for a led, its overkill
Mar 03 21:43:57 <SpeedEvil> True.
Mar 03 21:45:04 <SpeedEvil> wiki:  Changes from GTA01Bv3
Mar 03 21:45:04 <SpeedEvil>    1. Fix all Errata items from GTA01Bv3
Mar 03 21:45:05 <SpeedEvil>    2. Add I2C, SPI and one irq and wakeup capable GPIO pin to debug port plus have test pads for all these signals (for soldering wires directly on the pcb) 
Mar 03 21:45:17 <SpeedEvil> So you get one GPIO.
Mar 03 21:45:29 <SpeedEvil> Prolly need a transistor too.
Mar 03 21:45:45 <Psi_> yeah
Mar 03 21:46:18 <PBeck> would be a flexible wire a good solution that you can form how you like?
Mar 03 21:46:36 <SpeedEvil> flexible wire?
Mar 03 21:46:37 <Psi_> hehe wakeup capable, Psi points a tv remote at his neo and turns it on
Mar 03 21:47:58 <PBeck> http://onlineshop.rnib.org.uk/local_images/products/thumbnails/tn_dh94.jpg
Mar 03 21:48:03 <PBeck> i mean that
Mar 03 21:48:30 <PBeck> not inside
Mar 03 21:48:35 <PBeck> perhaps a good outside idea
Mar 03 21:48:42 <PBeck> not only the connector with the leds
Mar 03 21:48:56 <Psi_> i wonder what they are going to do about warrentys? since people will be modifying them a lot
Mar 03 21:49:11 <PBeck> hum yes that can be a problem
Mar 03 21:49:34 <Psi_> pretty hard to prove if the phone stopped working because the user shorted something or if there was an actual fault
Mar 03 21:49:37 <SpeedEvil> I hope they will take the view that it is part of the design cost.
Mar 03 21:50:02 <SpeedEvil> They are in effect getting dev work, a hell of a lot of it for free.
Mar 03 21:59:27 <PBeck> so i go offline now
Mar 03 21:59:29 <PBeck> bye
Mar 03 22:00:36 <peeps> bye
Mar 03 22:12:33 <Psi_> http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/03/openmoko-details-pricing-availability-for-neo1973/
Mar 03 22:12:46 <Psi_> does that say what it looks like its saying?
Mar 03 22:12:54 <Psi_> or am i seeing things
Mar 03 22:13:11 <SpeedEvil> Is that the $250 quote?
Mar 03 22:13:13 <SpeedEvil> it's wrong.
Mar 03 22:13:16 <Psi_> yes
Mar 03 22:13:17 <Psi_> ah,
Mar 03 22:13:29 <Psi_> pity :P
Mar 03 22:13:31 <SpeedEvil> We think they took the price of the hackers lunchbox and ...
Mar 03 22:13:53 <CoreDump|home> hmmm
Mar 03 22:14:14 * CoreDump|home wonders if p0 has the "bomb proof" lunchbox as well =)
Mar 03 22:14:15 <Psi_> so the hackers lunchbox is $250 ontop of the 350 for the phone?
Mar 03 22:14:21 <SpeedEvil> no, it's $200
Mar 03 22:14:27 <Psi_> hehe, so they even got that wrong
Mar 03 22:15:36 <Elrond> Anyone any idea, how partitioning works?
Mar 03 22:16:01 <Psi_> for fat32 yes
Mar 03 22:16:05 <ozamosi> I do that sometimes... Take one part of one number, and one part of another number, and end up with something completely wrong.
Mar 03 22:16:20 <Elrond> Psi_ - on the neo. ;)
Mar 03 22:16:36 <mjr> you make a partition table on the hard disk or other mediain one format or other, indicating which block ranges are to be used for which partition
Mar 03 22:16:57 <Psi_> sounds pretty standard to me
Mar 03 22:17:12 <Elrond> mjr - How do you do that on flash on the neo?
Mar 03 22:17:36 <Psi_> why would it be any different to a hdd?
Mar 03 22:17:47 <Psi_> its just a block of bits
Mar 03 22:18:03 <mjr> *shrug*
Mar 03 22:18:05 <Elrond> flash is not like a hdd.
Mar 03 22:18:11 <Psi_> compact flash is :P
Mar 03 22:18:32 <Psi_> but yeah, i have no idea how minisd works
Mar 03 22:18:59 <SpeedEvil> MicroSD
Mar 03 22:19:04 <SpeedEvil> miniSD is a bit smaller.
Mar 03 22:19:04 <Psi_> ah
Mar 03 22:19:12 <SpeedEvil> err - larger.
Mar 03 22:19:16 <SpeedEvil> Eleectrically identical.
Mar 03 22:19:21 <Psi_> yea, i ment to say micro
Mar 03 22:19:25 <SpeedEvil> Also - they are basically block devices.
Mar 03 22:19:34 <SpeedEvil> Though with a wierd interface.
Mar 03 22:19:49 <SpeedEvil> They do all the wear leveling, and flash 'reality' hiding.
Mar 03 22:20:13 <SpeedEvil> The NAND flash on the motherboard has all the warts exposed.
Mar 03 22:20:23 <SpeedEvil> You've got to do the bad block mapping in hardware.
Mar 03 22:20:34 <Psi_> id imagine the driver takes care of everything and you just partition the /dev/hda or sda or whatever with fdisk or whatever linux partitioning app you want
Mar 03 22:21:02 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - for the SD.
Mar 03 22:21:12 <SpeedEvil> It works just like any block device.
Mar 03 22:22:40 <Psi_> Elrond,  is that what you meant?
Mar 03 22:23:08 <peeps> so there is 64MB Flash built in that the device boots from.  what sort of things are stored in microSD vs builtin flash?
Mar 03 22:23:31 <Psi_> id imagine the built in flash is mounted somewhere, maybe /boot
Mar 03 22:24:38 <peeps> so basically just the kernel and whatever bootloader stuff is there, and all apps and remainder of the distro would be on the microSD?
Mar 03 22:24:46 <SpeedEvil> The 64M stuff is all that is need to make it a fully featured phone.
Mar 03 22:24:52 <SpeedEvil> with several meg of user data.
Mar 03 22:24:56 <SpeedEvil> Ideally.
Mar 03 22:24:58 <Psi_> ah, so hehe i had it around the other way
Mar 03 22:25:07 <SpeedEvil> Nothing is on the SD.
Mar 03 22:25:19 <SpeedEvil> So that the user can easily swap it out for music, or ...
Mar 03 22:25:19 <Psi_> the microsd will mount somewhere
Mar 03 22:25:34 <Psi_> yeah, makes sense now that i think about it
Mar 03 22:25:55 <Psi_> does the phone come with a microsd card?
Mar 03 22:26:13 <Elrond> No.
Mar 03 22:26:19 <Elrond> Huh.
Mar 03 22:26:26 <SpeedEvil> I think it comes with a 512 card.
Mar 03 22:26:28 <Psi_> good, dont want to get a tiny card and have to take it out to but in a big one
Mar 03 22:26:31 <peeps> i thought it did with 512
Mar 03 22:26:32 <Psi_> damn
Mar 03 22:26:35 <SpeedEvil> Anyway - 512 cards are _cheap_
Mar 03 22:26:42 <Psi_> but=put
Mar 03 22:26:46 <SpeedEvil> 2G cards I don't think are available yet.
Mar 03 22:27:05 <peeps> i coudn't find one a few months ago.  biggest was 1g
Mar 03 22:27:09 <SpeedEvil> There are possible hardware problems with using 4G cards.
Mar 03 22:27:10 <Elrond> Psi_ - I meant the partitioning on the 64MB nand ram.
Mar 03 22:27:13 <Elrond> s/ram/flash/
Mar 03 22:27:13 <apt> Elrond meant: Psi_ - I meant the partitioning on the 64MB nand flash.
Mar 03 22:27:16 <Psi_> 2GB MicroSD Memory Card	24 prices $52.00
Mar 03 22:27:41 <Psi_> Elrond, yeah, i get you
Mar 03 22:27:48 <SpeedEvil> 2G cards may or may not work.
Mar 03 22:27:54 <SpeedEvil> 4G cards probably won't.
Mar 03 22:28:10 <SpeedEvil> It's possible that a SDHC driver may be doable in software.
Mar 03 22:28:12 <Elrond> And the nand flash does not appear as /dev/[hs]sda
Mar 03 22:28:23 <Psi_> that price is not US, i was just showing that you can get them
Mar 03 22:28:51 <mjr> (There are some 2G available, and somebody confirmed using a Sandisk one on Neo on-list a while back)
Mar 03 22:28:55 <SpeedEvil> What I find is very insane is that the 'new' SDHC standard craps out at 16GB.
Mar 03 22:29:02 * SpeedEvil gets out his stabbing hammer.
Mar 03 22:29:04 <mjr> SpeedEvil, pfft, wussies
Mar 03 22:29:08 <peeps> lol, seems funny to me, but the ram is twice the size of the flash storage. :p
Mar 03 22:29:13 <peeps> that's a good thing though
Mar 03 22:29:42 <Psi_> yeah, bring on the 100GB microSD, i want every ep of stargate on my phone damnit :P
Mar 03 22:30:16 <SpeedEvil> I don't see why the hell they can't get a clue.
Mar 03 22:30:25 <SpeedEvil> I mean, 16GB is coming in maybe 6-7 years.
Mar 03 22:30:27 <peeps> rofl @ stabbing hammer
Mar 03 22:30:46 <mjr> SpeedEvil, but if they supported >16GB now, they wouldn't be able to sell all-new readers later
Mar 03 22:30:52 <SpeedEvil> By which time there will still be microSD, and some legacy devices will use it.
Mar 03 22:31:34 <mjr> Psi_, a noble goal
Mar 03 22:31:49 <peeps> i can't imagine much smaller than microsd, if you ever dropped it you might not find it again
Mar 03 22:32:11 <Elrond> Right. I find it too tiny.
Mar 03 22:32:27 <Psi_> mjr, heh
Mar 03 22:32:53 <SpeedEvil> I can imagine a better design than microSD.
Mar 03 22:33:07 <SpeedEvil> The size of the connector for microSD is moderately large.
Mar 03 22:33:41 <Elrond> Okay, I admit, cf is huge. But it at least feels like I can't break it accidentally.
Mar 03 22:34:00 <SpeedEvil> MicroSD is just scary.
Mar 03 22:34:18 <Elrond> Yep. It doesn't feel right to me.
Mar 03 22:34:20 <Psi_> PicoSD is just stupid!
Mar 03 22:34:29 <SpeedEvil> I think an interesting form factor would be the size of the plastic bit in the USB plug.
Mar 03 22:34:38 <SpeedEvil> Nice and thick, and yet small.
Mar 03 22:34:56 <SpeedEvil> Put the standard USB contacts on the back, and parallel contacts on the end.
Mar 03 22:35:08 <Psi_> they should layer it, make it a cube with say 5 chips
Mar 03 22:35:15 <SpeedEvil> So, you can read it just by pressing into a USB port.
Mar 03 22:36:44 <Elrond> BTW: A neo should be able to talk to another neo via usb-to-usb, right?
Mar 03 22:36:53 <Elixir-> If someone writes it, sure.
Mar 03 22:36:53 <SpeedEvil> With the right cable, yes.
Mar 03 22:37:08 <SpeedEvil> Nobody needs to write anything.
Mar 03 22:37:08 <peeps> i've never seen a cable like that though
Mar 03 22:37:14 <SpeedEvil> It's just the standard USB-net configs.
Mar 03 22:37:31 <Elixir-> So you have to write some configs at least?
Mar 03 22:37:33 <Elixir-> ;)
Mar 03 22:37:34 <Elrond> Yep. usbnet should just work.
Mar 03 22:37:39 <Psi_> why not use BT
Mar 03 22:37:43 <Elrond> Elixir- - Some "ifconfig". ;)
Mar 03 22:38:05 <Elrond> Psi_ - For top secure transmission of one time pads. ;)
Mar 03 22:38:18 <Psi_> ah
Mar 03 22:38:55 <SpeedEvil> BT a fair bit slower too.
Mar 03 22:40:52 * SpeedEvil considers how many terabytes of data you can swallow as micro-SD-filled capsules.
Mar 03 22:41:18 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - *G*
Mar 03 22:41:19 <aevin> Elrond: then you'll need a loooong usb cable!
Mar 03 22:41:30 <Psi_> hehe
Mar 03 22:42:37 <peeps> is BT slower than USB 1.1?
Mar 03 22:42:56 <Elrond> aevin - Why?  Meet up in person, exchange otp, job done.  Not good for voice, but 1GB of SD OTP is enough for LOTS of text.
Mar 03 22:43:22 <peeps> anyone know why AB port was chosen over B?
Mar 03 22:43:32 <peeps> (mini)
Mar 03 22:43:33 <SpeedEvil> Bidirectional.
Mar 03 22:43:43 <SpeedEvil> 1GB not enough for voice?
Mar 03 22:43:45 <Elrond> What's AB port?
Mar 03 22:44:05 <SpeedEvil> it's several days of voice.
Mar 03 22:44:12 <peeps> USB mini AB
Mar 03 22:44:12 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Hmm. 1GB might be good for 60-120minutes voice, maybe more... so: Yes.
Mar 03 22:44:19 <SpeedEvil> Days.
Mar 03 22:44:21 <Elrond> Hmm, speex, yeah. :)
Mar 03 22:44:36 <SpeedEvil> 120 mins of uncompressed CD quality voice.
Mar 03 22:44:46 <SpeedEvil> phone is not _quite_ CD quality voice.
Mar 03 22:45:21 <SpeedEvil> At likely codec rates it is about 2 days.
Mar 03 22:45:24 <peeps> so usb mini B is not bidirectional?
Mar 03 22:45:33 <SpeedEvil> AIUI no.
Mar 03 22:45:58 <peeps> I think it works for the RAZRs
Mar 03 22:46:25 <peeps> i just foudn it strange, cause i've actually never seen another device that uses mini AB
Mar 03 22:46:52 <peeps> and I've already got mini B cables ;-)
Mar 03 22:49:09 * Elrond is reading up on usb connectors.
Mar 03 22:59:53 <peeps> hmm, if you could output sound files into the GSM chip, then another option would be to put people on "hold"
Mar 03 23:00:52 <mjr> you can control the audio feeds
Mar 03 23:01:03 <mjr> (through the sound chip, not directly digitally)
Mar 03 23:02:16 <peeps> what do you mean not directly?
Mar 03 23:03:12 <Psi_> i think he means you can specify where the GSM chip gets its sound from, but you cant tell it to output a signal directly
Mar 03 23:03:19 <Psi_> but im just guessing
Mar 03 23:03:35 <mjr> no, I mean that you can't feed digital audio data to the chip or get some from it
Mar 03 23:03:48 <Psi_> isnt that what i said
Mar 03 23:03:50 <mjr> it needs to go through the DSP's d/a or a/d
Mar 03 23:03:59 <mjr> hmh, maybe :]
Mar 03 23:05:18 <peeps> i guess i don't understand enough about audio hardware
Mar 03 23:05:45 <Psi_> is the mic on the headset a different input to the mic on the audio plug?
Mar 03 23:07:09 <peeps> built in microphone attached to wolfson MIC2/MIC2N, headset mic vial HS_MIC attached to wolfson MIC1
Mar 03 23:07:15 <peeps> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#using_analog_.284pin_2.5mm.29_headset
Mar 03 23:07:27 <peeps> so looks like they are different inputs
Mar 03 23:07:48 <Psi_> yeah
Mar 03 23:13:03 * SpeedEvil comments on the engadget piece.
Mar 03 23:13:47 <SpeedEvil> I think I got all of the (surprising number) of inaccuracies, then mention the wiki.
Mar 03 23:18:54 <Elrond> Okay, after reading usb connector stuff on wikipedia again: Does the neo have a mini-b receptable or mini-ab receptable?
Mar 03 23:19:18 <mjr> nimi-b
Mar 03 23:19:46 <peeps> mini AB... according to the wiki
Mar 03 23:20:15 <peeps> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#USB_Device
Mar 03 23:20:40 <mjr> hmh, misunderstanding, perhaps on my part
Mar 03 23:30:54 <peeps> well, i just saw this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone
Mar 03 23:31:00 <peeps> says Mini b there
Mar 03 23:31:02 <peeps> who knows
Mar 03 23:31:31 <peeps> only FIC i guess
Mar 03 23:33:10 <ozamosi> I'd trust the first page more than the second.
Mar 03 23:40:16 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03laforge * r1234 10/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/uboot-gta01_svn.bb: Fix ordering of do_deploy in uboot to be compatible with rm_work (Closees: #225)
Mar 03 23:43:45 <zecke> dejavu hmm
Mar 03 23:50:16 <ketralnis> G'day all
Mar 03 23:50:59 <darmou> hi ketralinis welcome to another Sun morning in Aust ;)
Mar 03 23:53:09 <peeps> howdy
Mar 03 23:54:15 <ketralnis> I have some questions about the OpenMoko, if anyone with direct or indirect knowledge is willing to field them. First, is there a release date? What happened to the plans in Jan and Feb? Second, is the phone planning to be released "unlocked," if not, what carriers will it support?
Mar 03 23:54:16 <aloril> ketralnis: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 03 23:54:22 <SpeedEvil> faq?
Mar 03 23:54:23 <aloril> See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
Mar 03 23:54:41 <SpeedEvil> Delay, march, yes, all GSM ones.
Mar 03 23:54:48 <ketralnis> Ah hah! I didn't see that on the main page, thank you
Mar 03 23:54:48 <SpeedEvil> late march
Mar 03 23:57:03 <Elrond> ketralnis - no locked at all.
Mar 03 23:57:12 <Elrond> I hope the TI chip can't be locked...
Mar 04 00:01:41 <SpeedEvil> I hope it can be.
Mar 04 00:02:03 <SpeedEvil> Why shouldn't the neo be able to go out locked to one carrier, but otherwise functional, for a substantial discount.
Mar 04 00:02:55 <newmedian> I would prefer not to cater to their phone & feature locking mentality. No need to encourage them to continue with that practice.
Mar 04 00:03:09 <ketralnis> That's true, but it makes it more difficult to find one if you don't know whether it's unlocked
Mar 04 00:03:11 <mjr> newmedian, indeed
Mar 04 00:03:17 <SpeedEvil> Phone locking - for a subsidy, I have no problem with.
Mar 04 00:03:21 <SpeedEvil> Feature locking is evil.
Mar 04 00:04:06 <newmedian> If they are only sold unlocked, there is no guesswork.
Mar 04 00:04:38 <SpeedEvil> If you can't figure out if a phone is locked or not, you're probably not going to get the most out of the phone.
Mar 04 00:04:57 <SpeedEvil> You look for a sim-free phone, or order it direct from FIC.
Mar 04 00:04:58 <ketralnis> I'm not sure that the inherently open architecture in the OpenMoko would make it "easy" to do feature-locking, which is a good thing
Mar 04 00:05:20 <SpeedEvil> True.
Mar 04 00:05:24 <newmedian> True, if you're a developer. But consider that the phone is going to be mass marketed. People who take their locked version overseas and it doesn't work, will just have a negative connotation with the phone. 
Mar 04 00:06:12 <SpeedEvil> I don't really care.
Mar 04 00:06:22 <SpeedEvil> It's no different from any other phone in that respect.
Mar 04 00:06:46 <newmedian> If everything is targeted just to developers, as a subset, then the market segment is too small, not enough hardware will be sold, and then the next version won't be built. So, perhaps we should care.
Mar 04 00:07:11 <SpeedEvil> This version will be unlocked - as it's SIMless.
Mar 04 00:07:19 <SpeedEvil> you supply your own SIM.
Mar 04 00:07:51 <SpeedEvil> I'm talking about when it hits P2, we want it available, subsidised, from T-mobile, Virgin, Orange, ...
Mar 04 00:08:04 <SpeedEvil> As one of the options of phones when a customer goes into the shop.
Mar 04 00:08:12 <guaqua> or not
Mar 04 00:08:13 <newmedian> okay.
Mar 04 00:08:18 <SpeedEvil> Just as they are currently presented with any other phone.
Mar 04 00:08:29 <guaqua> it just might not work with the subsidised model
Mar 04 00:08:29 <SpeedEvil> You can still buy it without the subsidy or lock.
Mar 04 00:08:39 <SpeedEvil> Just for more.
Mar 04 00:08:46 <newmedian> I think the feature lock thing may be an issue. Too open. :)
Mar 04 00:08:56 <guaqua> and there are also unsubsidised markets available in the world
Mar 04 00:08:56 <SpeedEvil> Feature locking won't work.
Mar 04 00:09:10 <newmedian> SpeedEvil, which is a good thing. :)
Mar 04 00:09:12 <SpeedEvil> Or at least, it won't work without crippling the phone.
Mar 04 00:09:49 <SpeedEvil> It'd be fairly easy for a supplier to lock down the phone so much that it requires a debug board to flash it.
Mar 04 00:10:11 <SpeedEvil> My main point is: Come September, we don't want volume. We want VOLUME.
Mar 04 00:10:19 <SpeedEvil> It needs to be in stores.
Mar 04 00:10:42 <guaqua> and there are smarter markets than the us markets
Mar 04 00:10:42 <SpeedEvil> If carriers can be gotten behind it, then they can do that.
Mar 04 00:10:57 <guaqua> so the us markets might not be needed
Mar 04 00:10:57 <SpeedEvil> It's irrelevant.
Mar 04 00:11:02 <Elrond> T-Mobile in .de once sold unlocked phones together with their SIMs.
Mar 04 00:11:11 <guaqua> what's irrelevant?
Mar 04 00:11:26 <SpeedEvil> If the carrier is willing to provide a subsidy with a new phone and a contract, and that new phone can be a neo - why not?
Mar 04 00:12:26 <newmedian> It would be nice if the neo would mate with the http://phonelabs.com/  Dock-N-Talk
Mar 04 00:12:26 <SpeedEvil> And the user understands of course.
Mar 04 00:13:17 <Elrond> I doubt users will understand. But I don't know, really.
Mar 04 00:13:42 <Elrond> They might go like "free phone, cool. Means I can swap another SIM."
Mar 04 00:13:57 <Elrond> ... and be pissed.
Mar 04 00:14:19 <guaqua> the users do care, and the carriers do care
Mar 04 00:14:28 <Elrond>     either at the seller, or at the neo.
Mar 04 00:14:36 <SpeedEvil> Well - in practice, every user that knows about swapping SIMs - or at least most - know about this issue.
Mar 04 00:14:43 <Elrond> But I might be completely wrong.
Mar 04 00:14:54 <SpeedEvil> The Dock-N-talk thing should work just fine.
Mar 04 00:15:07 <SpeedEvil> The headset connector is compatible with the samsung A1200
Mar 04 00:15:09 <Elrond> What's "dock-n-talk"?
Mar 04 00:15:13 <SpeedEvil> and other phones.
Mar 04 00:15:19 * SpeedEvil points up at the URL.
Mar 04 00:15:26 <newmedian> SpeedEvil, ah, interesting.  It also has a Bluetooth module.
Mar 04 00:15:45 <Elrond> <-- boot webbrowser.
Mar 04 00:15:51 <guaqua> you are very optimistic about this issue
Mar 04 00:16:16 <SpeedEvil> what issue?
Mar 04 00:16:44 <guaqua> the issue with significant majority of phones selling subsidised
Mar 04 00:16:45 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: It's basically a 'plug mobile into thingy' and it pretends it's a 'norma;l' phone line
Mar 04 00:17:35 <newmedian> SpeedEvil, Elrond, the magic comes into play when you hook the Dock-N-Talk to an FXO Port on a card like the Digium TDM400P, and run Asterisk. Then you can gateway your GSM calls to/from VOIP and PSTN.
Mar 04 00:17:59 <SpeedEvil> If the carriers provide the subsidy anyway. Why should not the neo take a slice of the market? Why would the user expect it to be different to other phones?
Mar 04 00:18:05 <guaqua> i mean, a neo can also be built customized to a carrier's brand and all the shebang, but if that's the case i can't really see a potential for other sorts of open source software
Mar 04 00:18:14 <SpeedEvil> newmedian: naah - run asterisk on the phone.
Mar 04 00:18:40 <SpeedEvil> I don't see a problem with it coming with a custom set of apps and branding, as long as the user can change them.
Mar 04 00:18:43 <newmedian> SpeedEvil, well if it can be done on a WRT54GS, then why not a neo. :)
Mar 04 00:19:05 <SpeedEvil> If the carriers are willing to do the subsidy, without locking down the features, then I think it's win-win.
Mar 04 00:19:11 <guaqua> off course
Mar 04 00:19:39 <SpeedEvil> The ideal case is that the carriers start demanding openmoko phones.
Mar 04 00:20:00 <SpeedEvil> And nokia/... get into the buisness.
Mar 04 00:20:05 <guaqua> yep
Mar 04 00:20:30 <guaqua> it would be the beginning of OS in phones
Mar 04 00:21:30 <guaqua> most important thing the traditional makers would bring would be design and actual sales channels
Mar 04 00:21:35 <Elrond> Hmmm, locking down the features is easy... set u-boot timeout to 0, no menu. Put lock up root. ;o)
Mar 04 00:21:49 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Mar 04 00:21:54 <SpeedEvil> You can still JTAG it.
Mar 04 00:22:06 <Elrond> Right. If you have the debug board.
Mar 04 00:22:36 <Elrond> There be new business then: "Send in phone, we'll unlock at least the CPU. We can't unlock the SIM." ;o)
Mar 04 00:22:38 <guaqua> Elrond: and if there's a shop on the mall to do it easily for you and flash the device...
Mar 04 00:23:24 <SpeedEvil> I just wish there was a nice connetor in the battery bay.
Mar 04 00:23:25 <Elrond> For guaqua s/send in phone/come over, give use the phone and wait: /
Mar 04 00:23:26 <newmedian> yeah, e.g. http://www.bongowireless.com/ is one of the popular ones in Toronto
Mar 04 00:23:44 <SpeedEvil> I mean, there is just about space for a 0.5mm*10 circuit connector just next to the battery connector.
Mar 04 00:24:10 <SpeedEvil> USB, I2C, power, and it's ideal.
Mar 04 00:25:21 <guaqua> going to sleep now anyway. tequila and mobile phone carrier politics don't mix too well. night night :)
Mar 04 00:25:42 <Elrond> Well, unless they get TI specs, things like http://www.bongowireless.com/ can't unlock the TI (assuming it has locking features.)
Mar 04 00:25:43 <SpeedEvil> Wave.
Mar 04 00:25:46 <newmedian> you need to take it with some salt ;)
Mar 04 00:26:01 <guaqua> had plenty of salt, but not lemon :S
Mar 04 00:26:20 <Elrond> Need bed soon instead of salt.
Mar 04 00:26:27 <SpeedEvil> I don't know how easy it is to unlock the TI device once you have the docs.
Mar 04 00:26:48 <guaqua> think so too :) have fun speculating. i just hope everything turns out the right way, the OS way :)
Mar 04 00:26:54 <SpeedEvil> I mean, if it's trivial - it may be a bit of info that could be sold for a few thousand dollars already by someone in TI.
Mar 04 00:28:55 * aevin knows a bunch of people in TI -- but not the GSM chip department.
Mar 04 00:29:30 <SpeedEvil> In the CCD department?
Mar 04 00:30:25 <aevin> SpeedEvil: no, in the Low Power Wireless in .no
Mar 04 00:31:00 <SpeedEvil> Been waiting ages for an interesting CCD to turn up as orderable...
Mar 04 00:32:00 <ebel> Is there standalone bluetooth wifi dongles?
Mar 04 00:32:01 <aloril> When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some model later this year probably will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Mar 04 00:33:03 <aevin> that sees like an automated reply triggering on questions containing "wifi"... :)
Mar 04 00:33:10 <ebel> i.e. so you could give it wifi-over-bluetooth? I've seen some 'wifi and bluetooth' usb dongles via searches, but they'd probably need external power...
Mar 04 00:33:19 <aevin> seems
Mar 04 00:33:29 <SpeedEvil> there are wifi-bluetooth bridging solutions.
Mar 04 00:34:27 <ebel> That would effectivly 'solve' the wifi thing.
Mar 04 00:36:15 <SpeedEvil> Not really.
Mar 04 00:36:21 <SpeedEvil> Tehy are not very portable.
Mar 04 00:40:50 <ebel> No? I've seen bluetooth GPS gadgets, which you could use on a smartphone without GPS. Thought there might be something like that for wifi.
Mar 04 00:41:47 <SpeedEvil> I've not seen an integrated unit.
Mar 04 00:42:51 <ebel> Bummer.
Mar 04 00:44:25 <aevin> SpeedEvil: you mean BT+Wifi IC?
Mar 04 00:44:30 <SpeedEvil> no
Mar 04 00:44:38 <SpeedEvil> I mean a thing in the shops.
Mar 04 00:44:48 <aevin> aha.
Mar 04 00:44:53 <SpeedEvil> With BT-wifi converter written on it.
Mar 04 00:45:11 <ebel> Like a little external dongle with bluetooth wifi and a battery.
Mar 04 00:45:18 <SpeedEvil> yeaj
Mar 04 01:53:04 <Readon> hello
Mar 04 01:53:57 <Readon> when i build openmoko i received the message "NOTE: Task failed: Fetch failed: ftp://ftp.astron.com/pub/file/file-4.18.tar.gz
Mar 04 01:53:57 <Readon> NOTE: package file-native-4.18-r1: task do_fetch: failed
Mar 04 01:53:57 <Readon> ERROR: TaskFailed event exception, aborting"
Mar 04 01:55:05 <Readon> so i download file-4.18.tar.gz to sources dir from other site, but it still report the same error. how to fix that?
Mar 04 01:55:06 <aloril> Readon: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 04 01:55:10 <SpeedEvil> ==> PORT ... done.    ==> RETR file-4.18.tar.gz ... 
Mar 04 01:55:10 <SpeedEvil> No such file `file-4.18.tar.gz'.
Mar 04 01:55:33 <SpeedEvil> the trivialway is to change the URL to that of the other site.
Mar 04 01:56:09 <loufoque> what will the terminal of openmoko be based on?
Mar 04 01:56:28 <Readon> but how to change that, i'am new comer.
Mar 04 01:56:36 <jebba> would be cool if OE would grab from the upstream site and if that wasn't there would failover to an OE archive... The 404 thing is pretty common...
Mar 04 01:56:47 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Mar 04 01:56:54 <jebba> loufoque, the terminal?  rxvt   if that's what you mean
Mar 04 01:57:18 <jebba> Readon,  cd sources/   and wget `file` from another place
Mar 04 01:57:52 <loufoque> doesn't it need to be adapted in order to look good on a phone and be usable with the stylus?
Mar 04 01:58:24 <jebba> well, it could use a virtual keyboard.  But what would have to be adapted other than input?
Mar 04 01:58:42 <Readon> jebba, i have down load the file into source manually.
Mar 04 01:58:54 <SpeedEvil> Howlarge is it?
Mar 04 01:58:56 <jebba> Readon, ya, that's one way to solve your problem
Mar 04 01:59:14 <jebba> SpeedEvil, you asking me? howlarge is what? rxvt?
Mar 04 01:59:23 <SpeedEvil> never mind.
Mar 04 01:59:49 <SpeedEvil> I was asking Readon how large the file is - however, changing the URL to a working one is the werong solution.
Mar 04 01:59:58 <Readon> jebba, but the bitbake still trying to grab one
Mar 04 02:00:35 <Readon>    536447 2007-03-04 10:20 file-4.18.tar.gz
Mar 04 02:00:41 <Readon> SpeedEvil
Mar 04 02:01:50 <loufoque> jebba: It would need to use the OpenMoko framework to integrate well with the rest of the UI
Mar 04 02:03:18 <jebba> Readon, in the Building section in the FAQ check for #fixes  and see `touch` about files you need to `touch` in build/tmp/stamps
Mar 04 02:04:24 <jebba> loufoque, well, it's just based on gtk. You could use gnome-terminal to make it look similar if you wanted bloat, i guess.   But if you're opening a console who really gives a damn about integrating /that/ with the rest.  ;)
Mar 04 02:07:11 <Readon> jebba, done thanks
Mar 04 02:07:41 <loufoque> jebba: I do.
Mar 04 02:08:27 <loufoque> jebba: a terminal that doesn't look good, where is the text is unreadable or where inputting and managing text is difficult is not very usable.
Mar 04 02:13:21 <jebba> loufoque, well you can make the fonts bigger to make them unreadable.  Inputting text is another issue... but an onscreen keyboard can do that.
Mar 04 02:13:29 <jebba> s/unreadable/readable
Mar 04 02:14:20 <jebba> that said, feel free to add your ideas to the various Wishlists: in the wiki  :)
Mar 04 02:19:57 <loufoque> if the terminal could support w3m that would be nice
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Mar 04 02:59:58 2007