**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 14 03:00:00 2007 Mar 14 03:09:04 rwhitby, for the last day or so i've been getting "configure: error: can't find confuse library". Mar 14 03:12:17 Hi Mar 14 03:16:15 Hi everyone Mar 14 03:16:41 I'm interested in OpenMoko. Is it possible to catch the second release of develop device? Mar 14 03:16:41 ljm_tw: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 14 03:23:42 aloril: reading. Tkx. Mar 14 03:24:23 aloril: Then I'll try to work first with emulator. $350 is much for me XD Mar 14 03:26:26 quit Mar 14 03:31:39 jebba: pastebin please Mar 14 03:40:04 * rwhitby is currently bitten by the low battery charge bug ... Mar 14 03:40:23 but I've wired a serial controlled relay up to the reset switch on the debug board :-) Mar 14 03:46:24 rwhitby, http://pastebin.ca/394237 Mar 14 03:54:30 jebba: patch coming Mar 14 03:56:10 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r54 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (ftdi-eeprom-native.patch series): Patched ftdi-eeprom-native to add missing confuse-native dependency. Mar 14 03:56:34 * jebba testing Mar 14 03:56:37 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=266 Mar 14 04:00:24 jebba: are you building for fic-gta01 ? Mar 14 04:04:56 aevin, yes, for that and qemuarm. both showed the error (iirc) Mar 14 04:05:46 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1358 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): revert the show_all & hide splashing ugly method for now. I have to for the phone call debugging. Mar 14 04:06:04 unfortunately download.savannah.gnu.org is hanging for me @ the moment... Mar 14 04:25:10 it sounds like you can get dataplans in USA from cingular/t-mobile without contract and without phone Mar 14 04:26:58 ah, it might have been about UK "It is possible to take your sim free phone & join a network without being locked into a 1 - 2 year contract.": http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/4956_Unlocking_the_Phone.php Mar 14 04:27:33 aloril: umm, there's a rumor you can use t-mobile prepaid for unlimited data, but I understand that hole has been blocked Mar 14 04:27:59 aloril: and the only thing you can get without a contract is prepaid Mar 14 04:28:45 aloril: this is US Mar 14 04:29:41 I should work on a talk about newfangled mobiles Mar 14 04:32:40 Tv: ah, so you *need* 2 year contract in USA with cingular/t-mobile Mar 14 04:33:07 ? Mar 14 04:33:17 aloril: apparently so; the prepaid thingie can do web surfing limited to sites they like and aim/icq/msn chat, that afaik everything else is blocked Mar 14 04:33:29 aloril: haven't had time to test Mar 14 04:33:58 ouch, so only way to cancel contract is to move to cheapest plan ;-) Mar 14 04:34:06 'cancel' Mar 14 04:34:37 that's why it's a 2-year contract.. Mar 14 04:35:24 * aloril thinks in Finland cheapest monthly fixed cost is < 1 EUR (and no contract of course) Mar 14 04:35:39 what's <1 EUR? Mar 14 04:35:44 I know saunalahti is 10 EUR/mo Mar 14 04:35:53 * Tv <- Finn in LA Mar 14 04:36:01 I mean if you don't actually use phone Mar 14 04:36:11 ah, that doesn't really count ;) Mar 14 04:36:14 or only answer calls ;-) Mar 14 04:36:15 the 10 EUR is fixed Mar 14 04:36:25 flat rate gprs woo! Mar 14 04:36:44 yeah, but can you get "answer only voice calls" in USA cheaply? hmm.. I guess prepaid is that... Mar 14 04:36:49 jebba: I am having the same problem too: Connecting to download.savannah.gnu.org|199.232.41.75|:80... failed: Connection timed out. Mar 14 04:36:55 aloril: you pay for incoming here Mar 14 04:37:30 i'll do it later. Mar 14 04:37:48 oh..so for emergency phone cheapest is prepaid and not use it at all, just keep it on ;-) Mar 14 04:37:53 yeah Mar 14 04:38:00 aloril: and even then, the minutes will expire Mar 14 04:38:20 aloril: so you pay something like $10/3 mo minimum Mar 14 04:38:36 still I think in Finland you can have plan with less than 1 EUR in month that is free incoming calls and does allow any data (maybe 5 EUR/meg or so), etc.. Mar 14 04:38:36 I think my saunalahti gsm base rate is 0.66 EUR/mo ;) Mar 14 04:38:55 and I can get some GPRS on top of that starting at I think 1 EUR/mo Mar 14 04:39:00 and flat rate gprs for 10 EUR/mo Mar 14 04:39:11 so 10.66 EUR/mo = flat rate gprs plus infinite incoming calls Mar 14 04:39:11 of course if you actually GRPS, then it makes sense to get flat rate ;-) Mar 14 04:39:52 but anyway, requiring 2 year contract, that is quite Mar 14 04:40:14 rwhitby: a few files appear to have gone missing -- http://rafb.net/p/jxnJIw45.html Mar 14 04:40:21 with phones I understand but, not having alternative without 2 year contract and without phone .. Mar 14 04:40:37 openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates_svn.bb does not exist Mar 14 06:08:27 counter Mar 14 06:08:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 4 days 05:51:32 (18.244 +-7.0 days) (535) Mar 14 06:22:10 sometimes providing faq link doesn't work: person just proceeds to ask questions from it .. Mar 14 06:32:31 openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1359 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/src/main.c: remove warnings for openmoko-mainmenu:main.c Mar 14 06:52:26 * CM smiles at mistertchima@yahoo.com's mail on openmoko-dev ;) Mar 14 06:54:53 openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1360 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/src/callbacks.c: remove compile warnings for openmoko-mainmenu:callbacks.c Mar 14 07:03:59 MacNorth: you need to "make update" before "make setup", so you get the latest patches. Mar 14 07:04:15 ok , i got out of the infiite rebooting loop by loading the device one day and now i reached uboot , changed to fast charge and its booting up gracefully Mar 14 07:04:54 yeah, I got out of my reboot loop by wiring the reset switch on the debug board to serial controlled relay, and leaving it in reset for a couple of hours. Mar 14 07:05:51 the battery tells me now 73 % Mar 14 07:06:01 but i guess it should have reach 100 already Mar 14 07:12:48 Am I the only one who never gets past perl-native-5.8.7-r3 with the Moko makefile? Mar 14 07:13:16 * rwhitby updates http://www.flickr.com/photos/rwhitby/sets/72157594574977123/ showing the control of the reset button on the debug board. Mar 14 07:13:28 CM: got a full pastebin? Mar 14 07:15:45 rwhitby: http://pastebin.ca/394340 Mar 14 07:16:13 It's always IPC::SysV failing on not finding asm/page.h Mar 14 07:17:14 Hmm - x86_64. I'd build on a 32 bit OS if you want least problems. Mar 14 07:18:08 anyway, you should report it in #oe (and just say you're building perl-native, don't say you're running MokoMakefile, cause it's a standard OE package failure to build on your host). Mar 14 07:18:24 CM: i get past it, just never get anything compiled due to missing GTK+ 2.6 requirement that autogen.sh brings up Mar 14 07:18:35 Yes, I looked in the oe bugzilla but didn't find anything about it Mar 14 07:19:13 I don't have any 32bit os, but I guess I could run one in vmware :) Mar 14 07:26:16 good morning Mar 14 07:29:46 CM: I do all my OE builds in Debian Etch in vmware. Mar 14 07:29:54 I know ;) Mar 14 07:30:19 i'm thinking about switching to eg Mar 14 07:30:21 etch Mar 14 07:31:01 I have a xubuntu machine, but it's 300mhz P2 with 128mb ram.. Mar 14 07:33:36 I have a fc6 machine, but it's a 133MHz P1 with 128MiB ram... :P Mar 14 07:42:45 kmeyer: should give reasonable speed simulation ;-) Mar 14 07:43:03 :) Mar 14 07:43:10 it's my router :) Mar 14 07:44:20 Mine is a home-made "tablet" from some old dell laptop parts Mar 14 07:44:41 Not exactly portable though since the battery is broken Mar 14 07:47:31 :) Mar 14 07:47:44 why am I smiling so much? Mar 14 08:11:26 http://www.nanoradio.com/?NavID=267 HTF do they arrive at such power consumption? Mar 14 08:13:22 also, where can i get it on a pcmcia card ;) Mar 14 08:16:43 buz: is that low or high? ;P Mar 14 08:24:52 lows' Mar 14 08:29:20 If you want to know more about us, our products and services, we need to sign a joint Non-Disclosure-Agreement. Mar 14 08:29:30 Oh what fun, I love signing those... Mar 14 08:32:23 How is the code density compared to x86? Mar 14 08:40:25 if they dont even give out specs without NDA i doubt they will allow GPL drivers Mar 14 08:40:47 i wouldn't be surprised if there was patent violations, either Mar 14 08:41:37 but such low power requirements would be killer in a phone Mar 14 08:46:10 For MP3, it's not horribly hard to do. You simply turn the radio off in between bursts of a meg or so. Mar 14 08:46:26 That gets you really low power. Mar 14 08:46:46 Voice is harder, as it needs actual support. Mar 14 08:47:09 Because you've got to be active >10 times a second. Mar 14 08:47:12 they list 15s transfer times Mar 14 08:47:24 i assume that means streaming in one bit Mar 14 08:47:29 yeah Mar 14 08:47:38 was in that site power usage when transmitting? Mar 14 08:47:40 if that can be done in that power envelope it's REALLY impressing Mar 14 08:47:57 i found a press release 130ma while transmitting, doesnt say what voltage :( Mar 14 08:48:10 (what idiot lists ampers without voltage anyway) Mar 14 08:48:53 does standby in wifi world mean waiting for a package to come? Mar 14 08:49:35 bAssume 3.3 Mar 14 08:49:43 5 is rare these days. Mar 14 08:49:54 And lower voltage tends to be noted. Mar 14 08:52:58 only a complete idiot would use 5v in a mobile chipset Mar 14 08:53:03 but maybe its lower than 3.3v Mar 14 08:53:53 If it is, they'd not it. Mar 14 08:53:57 ote Mar 14 09:01:58 * aloril wonders is GPS will be in working state when P1 is released Mar 14 09:17:21 * xkr47 wonders if the the P1 will be released when GPS is in working state :) Mar 14 09:21:02 * rwhitby wonders if he should try an ipkg upgrade on the neo, since he is likely to reflash with a new image sometime anyway ... Mar 14 09:21:41 might as well find out what falls over now, so it can be fixed for the masses doing ipkg upgrades later ... Mar 14 09:22:30 Package uucp wants to install file /usr/bin/cu Mar 14 09:22:30 But that file is already provided by package cu Mar 14 09:22:43 looks like some update-alternatives work is required there ... Mar 14 09:24:21 morning Mar 14 09:24:34 morning TRIsoft Mar 14 09:27:46 root@neo:~$ ipkg upgrade Mar 14 09:27:46 Segmentation fault Mar 14 09:27:58 I guess I probably filled the jffs2 by doing a big ipkg upgrade. Mar 14 09:28:24 Heh Mar 14 09:29:24 * rwhitby remotely trips the serial controlled relay on the reset switch on the debug board to reboot the neo (from 15 kms away) Mar 14 09:31:26 good morning Mar 14 09:31:43 morning florian Mar 14 09:34:32 rwhitby: if you hit ram > 64MiB, it will crash: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245 Mar 14 09:35:13 so you probably want to update u-boot for anything serious Mar 14 09:44:08 SpeedEvil: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Neo1973_Hardware&diff=5981&oldid=5929 Mar 14 09:44:10 2007-03-07 22:52:27 LaF0rge: do you have an ETA when we can start asking GPS related questions (e.g. next week, next month, etc) 2007-03-07 22:52:42 koen: I would say one month is a good idea Mar 14 09:44:20 does above edit refer to later comment? Mar 14 09:45:57 + this: 2007-03-07 22:53:00 keon: We still have too many questions on our own now. Sean himself is looking into this Mar 14 09:52:58 aloril: yeah, I was intending to upgrade everything tonight anyway, u-boot, kernel, rootfs. Mar 14 09:53:36 the flash didn't fill, so it was probably the 64MB ram bug. trying ipkg upgrade again :-) Mar 14 10:12:01 is you pass mem=64m this should neutralise the bug without upgrading Mar 14 10:20:27 morning Mar 14 10:21:28 morning XorA Mar 14 10:26:42 * rwhitby starts on devirginator_svn.bb and devirginator-native_svn.bb ... Mar 14 10:34:05 Hy all, I'm trying to build the latest tool-chains, but I get this:"monotone: misuse: database schemas do not match: wanted e372b508bea9b991816d1c74680f7ae10d2a6d94, got 9988f135a16fe7fd593f2f49fd8147bba919e32f. try migrating database Mar 14 10:34:34 somebody with a idea ? (I used MokoMakefile) Mar 14 10:35:14 Jkx: What version of monotone do you have? Mar 14 10:35:27 monotone 0.18 (base revision: e8c9e4eb0534a4c6e538935576330de34ec42052) Mar 14 10:35:51 Heh, 0.32 is what you need Mar 14 10:37:12 CM Ok thanks .. Mar 14 10:41:09 0.18 - wow! Mar 14 10:41:36 Jkx: anything from 0.28 to 0.33 will do, 0.32 will make you wait the least time. Mar 14 11:12:15 openmoko: 03laforge * r1361 10/trunk/oe/packages/libftdi/ (ftdi-eeprom-native_0.2.bb ftdi-eeprom_0.2.bb): oe/libftdi: add missing dependencies to confuse{-native}. thanks rwhitby for spotting. closes #266 Mar 14 11:12:25 hmm Mar 14 11:12:35 s/laforge/mickeyl/ Mar 14 11:12:35 does someone brick totally his Neo? Mar 14 11:13:04 hrw: Yes, i think hrw did it :D Mar 14 11:13:05 hrw: even jtag doesnt work? Mar 14 11:13:31 XorA: jtag need machine which can be powered. Mar 14 11:13:42 I will have charger for battery in next week probably Mar 14 11:14:27 mickeyl: in all next versions add small led which will say "I am working" Mar 14 11:15:04 * XorA wonders why your battery doesnt charge Mar 14 11:15:14 XorA: what was this magic steps of operation again to make it at least powered up for jtag? something like disconnect everything, replace battery, press power button for 2 seconds, connect FPC and try w/ jtag again? Mar 14 11:15:20 hrw: i'm pushing!!! Mar 14 11:15:33 but it's obviously tough Mar 14 11:15:43 holding the reset button down is supposed to slowly charge it Mar 14 11:15:53 mickeyl: I know that you are pushing. I just remind Mar 14 11:15:56 mickeyl: I have no idea, I just kept the neo on usb and kept trying to turn it on until it finally did Mar 14 11:15:58 vmaster: for longer then 8h? Mar 14 11:16:15 hrw: don't think so Mar 14 11:16:17 mickeyl: my bv2 doesnt suffer the bug and the Phase 0 I havent had time to play with properly Mar 14 11:16:35 ah Mar 14 11:16:38 the problem is probably connected with fact that it felt to floor from ~80cm Mar 14 11:16:50 darn Mar 14 11:17:02 * mickeyl still has no p0, but hopefully by friday Mar 14 11:18:50 is it possible to power the neo just from usb, without having the battery inserted? Mar 14 11:19:30 unfortunately not with the current hardware design. AIUI it's a limitation of the PM IC Mar 14 11:20:18 here it does not start with BP-5L battery from nokia770 Mar 14 11:20:34 atleast not lcd Mar 14 11:21:07 did you try to connect via JTAG with the nokia's battery? Mar 14 11:21:26 not yet Mar 14 11:21:40 mickeyl: can gps antenna be disconnected from neo mainboard? Mar 14 11:21:47 time to check for cracked solder joints from the fall Mar 14 11:22:36 hrw: i think so. how's it attached? Mar 14 11:23:29 mickeyl: looks like removable Mar 14 11:23:35 yep, it is Mar 14 11:23:41 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 shows that as well Mar 14 11:23:45 i never did it on a device though Mar 14 11:24:13 I think that cable to that antenna will break first Mar 14 11:24:44 well... depends on how often you will want to detach/attach ;) Mar 14 11:25:34 mickeyl: p0 with covers taken off can be connected to debug board. but this need taking gps antenna off. so jtag == floating antenna on thin cable Mar 14 11:26:04 hmm d'oh Mar 14 11:26:11 that surprises me Mar 14 11:26:21 perhaps they moved the position of the debug connector Mar 14 11:27:09 mickeyl: p0 is like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware first photo Mar 14 11:27:11 on my pre-p0 thingy i can attach the debug FPC right after removing the upper case Mar 14 11:27:45 mickeyl: here too. but FPC is blocked by gps antenna cable Mar 14 11:27:56 hmm aaah Mar 14 11:28:06 you mean the angle is pretty steep Mar 14 11:28:09 but it's not really blocked Mar 14 11:28:13 that's the 'F' in FPC ;)) Mar 14 11:28:25 I need to take gps antenna off the case to use fpc Mar 14 11:28:50 could be i have not the final antenna Mar 14 11:28:56 and that yours may be larger Mar 14 11:28:57 on pre-p0 I have to take antena off to fit fpc, but I can put it back after fitting Mar 14 11:33:38 I will write to second Polish developer so we will make small hack session tomorrow Mar 14 11:34:03 I will check does my fpc, debugboard, neo, neo battery are working or not Mar 14 11:37:35 and all on Ania laptop which does not have Linux installed... Mar 14 11:38:01 looks like sooner or later I will have to buy laptop ;( Mar 14 11:38:22 thats nearly as hard as buying a linux phone Mar 14 11:39:44 buz: I think that it is easier to buy working linux laptop then working linux phone Mar 14 11:39:52 yes Mar 14 11:39:54 but still hard Mar 14 11:40:02 especially when you want a small one Mar 14 11:40:20 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r55 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (ftdi-eeprom-native.patch series): Removed ftdi-eeprom-native patch - now in OM svn. Mar 14 11:42:00 XorA: on P0, I can put the antenna back in place after attaching debug cable. Mar 14 11:44:49 openmoko: 03werner * r1362 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: Mar 14 11:44:49 openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (handle_upload): work around memory corruption caused by Mar 14 11:44:49 openmoko: copying to too small buffer in URB Mar 14 11:49:26 buz: the X60s seems to work fine with Linux Mar 14 11:51:21 LarstiQ: and is quite expensive Mar 14 11:51:30 my x41 works pretty nice with ubuntu Mar 14 11:51:41 even the thinklight und things linke this are working Mar 14 11:51:58 but this ibm/lenovo things are a bit expensive, yes Mar 14 11:52:02 hrw: compared to what? Mar 14 11:52:45 LarstiQ: for 1000 EUR I prefer to buy amd64 x2 from asus Mar 14 11:53:36 hrw: The a6t? Mar 14 11:53:56 LarstiQ: probably Mar 14 11:54:16 * LarstiQ is looking for a lightweight laptop, the x60s and q35 are candidates so far Mar 14 11:54:39 LarstiQ: I have two choices. Mar 14 11:54:47 LarstiQ: What about a macbook? Mar 14 11:54:57 1. fast laptop which will replace current desktop (which will be a buildbox) Mar 14 11:55:17 2. small laptop which I can get with when going for somewhere Mar 14 11:55:57 CM: waay to heavy Mar 14 11:56:07 * XorA has at work a Dell D420 Mar 14 11:56:23 hrw: after my current laptop breaking my back I've given up on the fast laptop, just want a light one Mar 14 12:01:19 hrw: ah, the a6t is also +- 1.5 kg above my limit Mar 14 12:07:04 hrw: I'm pretty happy with 2. Mar 14 12:08:00 florian: now the problem is: what to choose Mar 14 12:08:44 X60 have ridiculously low resolution Mar 14 12:08:49 at the very least, i want WXGA Mar 14 12:08:53 but i'd prefer SXGA+ Mar 14 12:09:03 hrw: I just bought an old X31, that's even fast enough to build OE if necessary. Nils has the same for some time now in still likes it. Mar 14 12:09:13 the killer would be panasonic Y5 but that's really pricey Mar 14 12:09:37 14" sxga+, core duo, 1.5kg Mar 14 12:09:53 http://www.google.com/url?q=http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-43310-8196-0/2%3Floc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252FPanasonic-Lets-Note-Toughbook-Y5-CF-Y5K-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ220086054871QQcmdZViewItem&e=14823&fr=AA5D9z0OD0VOp9gkarRGEiAwMj6eRCWa8wAAAAAAAAAA&sa=X&oi=froogle&ct=result&cd=2&usg=__DeXSrj-9ZNZiC105gEtZdNwEvMg= Mar 14 12:10:08 hrw: an additional fast workstation is that cheap that i bought one for home and one for work :-) Mar 14 12:10:21 florian: but its one more machine to admin Mar 14 12:10:34 i've gotten so lazy that i usually just use the docked notebook ;) Mar 14 12:11:16 I got a note from one of the OpenMoko team (who shall remain nameless to protect his identity) regarding the Mike thread: "This guy is hilarious...somebody should call his mom and ask her to slap him ;-)" Mar 14 12:11:28 buz: right, but with Debian/Ubuntu rather trivial. Mar 14 12:11:38 buz: oh nice! Mar 14 12:11:48 I in fact have more or less the same config on all machines. Mar 14 12:11:48 florian: does it take 1G ram? Mar 14 12:11:53 florian: true and you need a box with big disks anyhow Mar 14 12:12:01 hrw: yes Mar 14 12:12:23 hrw: 2 is max. iirc... ebay knows ;) Mar 14 12:12:26 LarstiQ: been drooling over the panasonic for a month now, i can see it coming, it must be bought at some point Mar 14 12:12:47 but i want it with international warranty Mar 14 12:12:53 buz: r5 is nice. Sean has such Mar 14 12:13:06 buz: that panasonic looks pretty nice too, any idea if they survive several years of mobile use? Mar 14 12:13:26 florian: panasonic claims that they have been dropped from 1m in labs without any issues whatsoever Mar 14 12:13:46 mind you, panasonic also builds those toughbooks, they should know a thing or two about building durable notebooks Mar 14 12:13:48 buz: it does not look like i want to try it ;) Mar 14 12:14:21 mhh the r5 screen is too low resolution for me Mar 14 12:14:45 XGA is just soo 2000 Mar 14 12:15:04 * LarstiQ currently lives on 1024x764 and can deal with it Mar 14 12:15:11 * florian too Mar 14 12:15:23 i can't, i already find 1600*1200 too small ;) Mar 14 12:15:30 That's what we have multiple desktops for... Mar 14 12:15:33 does panasonice have small laptops, like 12 inch monitor etc? Mar 14 12:15:47 florian: I usually work fullscreen, so they don't help there ;P Mar 14 12:15:51 guaqua: panasonic w5 is 12inch and 2.6pound Mar 14 12:15:56 LarstiQ: so do it Mar 14 12:16:05 multiple monitors help Mar 14 12:16:11 LarstiQ: hmmm? why this? Mar 14 12:16:15 buz: quite Mar 14 12:16:22 i just might kill for dual vga out laptop Mar 14 12:16:35 florian: while I might be able to deal with 1024x764, it still feels claustrophobic ;) Mar 14 12:16:36 buz: usb? :) Mar 14 12:16:59 what kind of price is that w5? Mar 14 12:17:04 arm, leg and a pair of trousers? Mar 14 12:17:08 2000usd ish Mar 14 12:17:16 i must admit that i have 3200x1024 on my workstation (yes, two screens) Mar 14 12:17:48 guaqua: http://www.dynamism.com/w5/specs.shtml Mar 14 12:18:00 but dynamism is very expensive Mar 14 12:18:04 ebay should be a lot cheaper Mar 14 12:18:50 buz: yeah Mar 14 12:19:07 plus i have no idea if those things run linux Mar 14 12:19:15 basically, they should but who knows if suspend works Mar 14 12:20:03 might require a bit hacking Mar 14 12:20:13 looks sweet though Mar 14 12:20:26 with 2.6.20 it works beautifully on my toshiba portege Mar 14 12:20:34 even to encrypted swap, yeah Mar 14 12:21:22 gotta go now, later Mar 14 12:23:49 heh Mar 14 12:23:59 the community ml is great to kill time till the next talk Mar 14 12:24:03 florian: so you suggest x31 or x32? Mar 14 12:29:29 hrw: if i remember correctly the difference x30/x31 was critical, but if i remember correctly the x32 had a better cpu than the x31 Mar 14 12:30:08 hrw: the x30 is too old to buy now, it has an old mobile (not M) cpu and shared memory graphics. Mar 14 12:31:11 I saw that, so x31/x32 to consider. Mar 14 12:31:16 hrw: x40 is nice if you can get a good price Mar 14 12:31:29 robtaylor: what is good price for it? Mar 14 12:32:19 hrw: one of the reasons why quite a lot of us here have older ibm laptops is all sorts of replacement parts and useful accessories are cheap. Mar 14 12:32:31 hrw: well i can see on one ebay uk for 578GBP Mar 14 12:32:40 the x40 should be another good choice Mar 14 12:32:56 mine cost 1300GBP new Mar 14 12:33:21 ~change 578 gbp to pln Mar 14 12:33:30 578.00 Pound (GBP) makes 3,287.62 Zloty (PLN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Mar 14 12:33:36 thats much too expensive Mar 14 12:33:43 robtaylor: 2800 pln here Mar 14 12:33:48 i wouldnt pay more than 500EUR (tops) for a X40 Mar 14 12:34:01 you must also consider that you will likely have to buy a new battery soo Mar 14 12:34:03 n Mar 14 12:34:25 robtaylor, hrw: The disadvantage of the x40 might be the disks and lacking firewire iirc Mar 14 12:35:01 florian: my desktop is second machine with firewire (which I never used) Mar 14 12:35:10 florian: yeah, its a 1.7" disk, whch is a bugger to upgrade Mar 14 12:35:19 yep Mar 14 12:35:56 hrw: ah ok, i have several firewire disks so i really missed it in my x24 Mar 14 12:36:00 but its a beautiful machine ;) Mar 14 12:36:42 buz: yeah, if you're bidding you can probably get an x40 for <500 Mar 14 12:37:48 tbh though, i always buy my laptops new and with an extended warranty Mar 14 12:37:57 safer that way :) Mar 14 12:55:39 Sean doesn't understand my humour :( Mar 14 13:04:29 * SpeedEvil likes his 3110CT - it's only PII/300/196M, but 1.1Kg and 6 hour battery life. (now I re-celled it with modern cells). Mar 14 13:06:39 That reminds me that the battery of my 110CT is dead :-( Mar 14 13:17:10 ozamosi - (assuming you posted the electron parody) I like your humor. :) Mar 14 13:17:45 ozamosi: maybe he is thinking now "doh" ;-) Mar 14 13:18:20 Probably. ;) Mar 14 13:18:42 Hmm. So it was a joke ? Damn. We just finished the website with 10 / 50 / 100 litre bags with genuine Asian electrons... Mar 14 13:21:18 TRIsoft - How many electrons are that per litre? Mar 14 13:21:52 Elrond: compressed or normal? Mar 14 13:22:00 Elrond: Just about a million. These are premium selected big electrons with extra power. Mar 14 13:22:56 XorA - RLE or lzma compressed? ;o) Mar 14 13:23:47 TRIsoft: surely its 6.022x10^23 x number of electrons on a gas molecule, which is a whole lot more that a million Mar 14 13:24:19 XorA, omg? Mar 14 13:24:20 :) Mar 14 13:24:33 what molecule are you speaking about :) Mar 14 13:24:37 for hydrogen 6.02x10^23 x 2 Mar 14 13:24:40 nooo Mar 14 13:24:42 XorA: Yes, these are the US / European cheap electrons. The Asia premium ones are much bigger. Mar 14 13:24:47 hydrogen has s1p1 Mar 14 13:24:48 I wonder if big electrons are as sour as the ones in ordinary batteries. Mar 14 13:24:48 XorA - I expect it to be proton and neutron free super premium electrons. ;) Mar 14 13:25:18 Sure. Only the red balls are real electrons :D Mar 14 13:25:19 H = s1 :) Mar 14 13:25:20 renihs: hydrogen gas is H2 though so two electrons a molecule Mar 14 13:25:26 ya Mar 14 13:25:43 why the 6.02x10^23 then? Mar 14 13:25:47 :p Mar 14 13:25:55 renihs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avogadro's_number Mar 14 13:26:07 ah ya but thats not the number of electrons :) Mar 14 13:26:12 i new that number was familiar :) Mar 14 13:26:29 renihs: thats why I said times number electrons on a molecule Mar 14 13:26:33 renihs - number of electons per Mol. Mar 14 13:26:37 yaya :) Mar 14 13:26:45 heh, i wouldn't call distant memories of long lost chemistry lessons "familiar", but i remembered that number, too :) Mar 14 13:26:49 One Mol = 23l at 1bar, 20 degree C. ca. Mar 14 13:27:00 23LITER? Mar 14 13:27:03 erm Mar 14 13:27:08 Yep. Mar 14 13:27:12 ca. Mar 14 13:27:12 .... Mar 14 13:27:28 I forgot the divide by 23 Mar 14 13:27:42 its been 18 years Mar 14 13:27:49 XorA - ;o) Mar 14 13:28:00 Hi koen|galinhas__ ! :) Mar 14 13:28:10 :P Mar 14 13:28:26 koen|galinhas__ - Have you already ordered genuine premium asian electrons for your neo? ;o) Mar 14 13:28:58 Elrond: no, I changed the PMU to be able to use unlocked electrons Mar 14 13:29:27 koen|galinhas: overclock them as well then Mar 14 13:29:35 koen|galinhas: and reun gentoo on them Mar 14 13:29:48 Just don't use any 'electrons' you mayu have left over from trips to mirror universes. Mar 14 13:30:06 SpeedEvil - *lol* :-) Mar 14 13:31:06 * koen|galinhas looks at http://mission-control.sourceforge.net/ Mar 14 13:34:58 Hi mickeyl! Mar 14 13:35:32 cheers Elrond Mar 14 13:36:42 mickeyl: the collabra dudes want to get telepathy and farsight running on openmoko Mar 14 13:36:54 koen: nice! Mar 14 13:37:28 I'm updating the bits in OE right now, but screen decided to break :( Mar 14 13:38:38 mickeyl - I heard, you're in FFM from time to time? Mar 14 13:39:44 hehe, from time to time... yeah Mar 14 13:39:51 actually i'm living there since 35 years Mar 14 13:42:23 mickeyl - Ahh. :-) (I'm in Darmstadt) Mar 14 13:42:48 quite around the corner Mar 14 13:42:58 not that far away from heidelberg! :P Mar 14 13:43:44 1.5h by plane from here Mar 14 13:44:31 atla - Yeah. ;) Mar 14 13:49:00 hello Mar 14 13:49:21 Hi LuitvD Mar 14 13:50:05 hello Elrond Mar 14 13:51:10 got a broken HTC Wizard battery... think it's worth replacing it? Mar 14 13:51:15 anyone? Mar 14 13:51:58 LuitvD: I like the Wizard Mar 14 13:52:33 XorA: got one of a friend... broken, he thinks :P Mar 14 13:52:40 I think it's just the battery Mar 14 13:52:55 LuitvD: pity its an annoying 5 terminal job Mar 14 13:52:59 (battery is completely dead, 0V on the terminals) Mar 14 13:53:04 * CM still smiles at the name "Darmstadt".. "Ich wär gern Madonnas Dickdarm, denn dann wäre ich immer satt. Und ich würde nur noch speisen, was sie schon gegessen hat..." Mar 14 13:53:14 XorA: 5-terminal? 6 pins :) Mar 14 13:53:34 LuitvD: misremebered, Im currently surfing on mine :-) Mar 14 13:53:42 lol Mar 14 13:54:05 Using a good lab PSU is a bad idea? Mar 14 13:54:11 No. Mar 14 13:54:12 * LuitvD counts 6 battery pins on this device (Wizard 200, with WIZA16 battery) Mar 14 13:54:14 (I wouldn't be brave enough, really) Mar 14 13:54:24 0V on terminals may not mean dead battery. Mar 14 13:54:36 SpeedEvil: then what? :P Mar 14 13:54:46 Some batteries require two pins to be connected before they will present voltage on the output trems. Mar 14 13:54:50 SpeedEvil: it won't charge, and it won't hold charge Mar 14 13:55:02 lab PSU is great, you just start at zero amps and ramp up slowly Mar 14 13:55:05 Dissect it, and replace the cells. Mar 14 13:55:16 err... Mar 14 13:55:23 I guess it's a 1-cell battery Mar 14 13:55:51 s/lls/ll/ Mar 14 13:55:51 SpeedEvil meant: Dissect it, and replace the cell. Mar 14 13:55:53 LuitvD: go into mobile phone shop and see if they lend you a battery for 5 mins :-) Mar 14 13:56:02 :) Mar 14 13:56:07 might be a nice option Mar 14 13:57:23 SpeedEvil: and where on mars do i find a new battery cell? Mar 14 13:57:23 If the cell is actually at 0V, there is a non-zero risk in recharging it. Mar 14 13:57:30 LuitvD: ebay. Mar 14 13:57:51 * LuitvD doesn't like ebay Mar 14 13:58:05 Look for one of approximately right dimensions, connect up the new cell to the old connectors, and preserve any connections to thermistors or stuff. Mar 14 13:58:41 i can get a brand new battery pack for 24 bucks including shipping... Mar 14 13:59:05 hmmh, the battery on the phone was nokia compatible, wasn't it? Mar 14 13:59:08 think getting a li-ion cell is worth more then getting a brand new li-po device? Mar 14 13:59:31 Hadaka: the battery in the FIC Neo is compatible with some nokia batteries Mar 14 13:59:48 Hadaka: we're talking about the HTC Wizard 200 atm Mar 14 13:59:56 LuitvD: ah, sorry, didn't pay attention Mar 14 13:59:57 (the WIZA16 model) Mar 14 14:00:21 but, well, atleast I won't be running out of replacement batteries for the FIC Neo then :) Mar 14 14:00:55 I hope I won't need a replacement battery ;) Mar 14 14:01:14 those things should last for 10 years with the correct use Mar 14 14:01:51 $10 on ebay. Not a problem :) Mar 14 14:15:01 LuitvD - How much costs a new battery in a shop? Mar 14 14:15:24 found a nice online shop which ship it at 24 euros Mar 14 14:16:01 dunno what shops in my town ask for one... I'll go find out tomorrow :) Mar 14 14:16:04 LuitvD - Well, a good shop lets you first try it, and if it doesn't work, you can give it back. Mar 14 14:16:53 yeah Mar 14 14:36:39 24EUR? sounds expensive considering you can buy nokia phones for 50EUR Mar 14 14:36:43 unsubsized Mar 14 14:41:02 the HTC Wizard is a bit more then just a phone :P Mar 14 14:48:23 oh i thought you were talking about the bl-5c Mar 14 14:48:30 but HTC is eeeeevil Mar 14 14:48:34 very much dark side Mar 14 14:52:02 gtg bye Mar 14 15:04:59 ;) Mar 14 15:05:06 Hi Bot? Mar 14 15:05:06 MandarinoatWork: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 14 15:05:09 xD Mar 14 15:06:28 haha :) Mar 14 15:07:28 aevin: how are you? Mar 14 15:08:05 i'm fine. just got up. having breakfast. Mar 14 15:08:11 doh! Mar 14 15:08:37 16:09 < aevin> i'm fine. just got up. having breakfast. Mar 14 15:08:42 sorry Mar 14 15:08:44 Mandarino: having trouble with your connection? Mar 14 15:08:59 Mandarino: hehe Mar 14 15:09:07 No I click on the "x" Mar 14 15:09:19 I'm cool Mar 14 15:09:27 is the "neo1973 phase 2" the phone with the "hardware refresh"(including wifi)? Mar 14 15:09:28 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some model later this year probably will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Mar 14 15:09:52 lol Mar 14 15:10:43 yeah phase2 *should* have wifi Mar 14 15:11:37 ok Mar 14 15:11:55 and that would be the "mass market one", right? Mar 14 15:12:22 yes. phase 2 targets mass market (september-ish) Mar 14 15:12:44 ok, nice Mar 14 15:12:46 and the hardware refresh will be between phase 1 and phase 2 (some like to clal it phase 1.5) Mar 14 15:13:30 do you know if the audio jack will be a 3.5 at that time? Mar 14 15:13:31 counter Mar 14 15:13:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 20:46:28 (17.866 +-7.0 days) (536) Mar 14 15:13:58 wookieface: no. i haven't heard any mention of that they're gonna change the 2.5 mm to a 3.5 mm one. Mar 14 15:14:13 ok, than i'll have to buy an adapter.. :p Mar 14 15:15:12 is sdio wifi standardised in anyway? Mar 14 15:15:27 but they haven't been specific about what to refresh, so who knows. but i doubt they'll make too big changes in the hardware layout, but a audio jack shouldnt be that had to change, but would need a small redesign of the casing. Mar 14 15:15:48 i think the audio jack was already ruled out Mar 14 15:16:12 small changes to casing are actually very expensive, as sean told the list last night Mar 14 15:16:30 some months ago i saw a RF company displaying some prototypes they had with WiFi integrated in the SIM card. Mar 14 15:17:34 buz: okay. i haven't caught up on the list yet, but i'm not surprised. we'll survive with 2.5 mm :) Mar 14 15:20:22 i still wonder if it is really that expensive to retool a case Mar 14 15:20:39 especially considering just who owns fic Mar 14 15:20:56 volumes I guess Mar 14 15:21:02 aevin: jack change is pointless as its a 4pole jack anyway so you would still need an adapter for headphones Mar 14 15:21:30 maybe you could get away with some smart jack Mar 14 15:21:35 and no adapter Mar 14 15:21:36 Not if the jack for the headset was compatible. Mar 14 15:21:48 something along the line of the shuffle2 jack Mar 14 15:21:53 which also serves as usb connector Mar 14 15:21:58 XorA: okay. thanks for info :) Mar 14 15:22:42 The tooling for the case - for volume is many, many thousand dollars. Mar 14 15:22:57 Per case then is tiny fractions of a dollar. Mar 14 15:23:36 i would guess that the tooling for the neo was in the order of about $40k USD Mar 14 15:23:59 That's probably in the ballpark. Mar 14 15:24:06 that doesnt seem that prohibitive to me considering they are already yanking the cpu in rev2 Mar 14 15:24:18 Yanking the CPU may be almost free. Mar 14 15:24:27 Depending on design. Mar 14 15:24:35 SpeedEvil: probably another $10k or so if they went with an extra hard metal Mar 14 15:24:36 or better deal with the new vendor Mar 14 15:24:49 If it's a pin-for-pin compatible CPU, you just change the order number, and some firmware. Mar 14 15:25:00 Even if not pin compatible, you hit 'route' on the autorouter. Mar 14 15:25:01 i dont think there is one Mar 14 15:25:03 and you're done. Mar 14 15:25:19 There is no large up-front cost with PCBs. Mar 14 15:25:35 buz: i'm currently working on sdio wifi interface for the marvell libertas chipset Mar 14 15:25:47 buz: also with the s3c24xx as the host cpu Mar 14 15:25:51 buz: and its slow going Mar 14 15:25:58 any chance to get that working? Mar 14 15:26:11 You mean for the chip alone, or using a SDIO card? Mar 14 15:26:20 i wonder if one could simply stick the whole chip with sdio interface onto the board Mar 14 15:26:20 buz: absolutely, got to get it working withing the next 30-45 days, hehe Mar 14 15:26:28 SpeedEvil: actually both Mar 14 15:26:31 did you tell sean? Mar 14 15:26:36 sort of like soldered in sdcard Mar 14 15:26:55 http://www.zcomax.com/1mbfile/G%20product/XG-880M_specification%20.pdf Mar 14 15:27:10 buz: don't know sean Mar 14 15:27:22 that doesnt really matter ;) Mar 14 15:27:41 i'm sure he'd love to hear from you ;) Mar 14 15:28:15 Happen to know ballpark BOM for the marvell? Mar 14 15:28:15 buz: hehe, well, someone would have to point me to an email adress or nick Mar 14 15:28:27 Community mailing list archives Mar 14 15:29:07 sean@openmoko.com Mar 14 15:29:15 SpeedEvil: i do, but i can't say, but its very reasonable Mar 14 15:29:33 SpeedEvil: sean is with FIC? Mar 14 15:29:39 he's the project lead Mar 14 15:29:49 sean@ openmoko.com Mar 14 15:30:00 ahh Mar 14 15:30:35 Am I the only one, who got Sean's "thanks" mail duped? Mar 14 15:30:40 i reckon it'd be better to have a second internal SDIO slot, which ships with the wifi card already in it Mar 14 15:30:46 buz, he is the project ;) Mar 14 15:30:50 http://www.sparklan.com/product_details.php?prod_id=80 Mar 14 15:30:52 SDIO is bulky. Mar 14 15:30:58 Mandarino: are you still hitting that 'X' ? ;-) Mar 14 15:30:59 Elrond: no got it double as well Mar 14 15:31:03 that way if poeple dont want it, they can yank it and stick in a second SD card Mar 14 15:31:20 parag0n: and if generally have to pay license for actual "slots" Mar 14 15:31:22 parag0n: according to sean, sd slot is not gonna happen in 1.5 Mar 14 15:31:25 parag0n: no slot, no fees Mar 14 15:31:34 SDIO card internal means that you need a large internal volume for the antenna. Mar 14 15:31:47 As there is no real standard position/size. Mar 14 15:31:54 dont you always need space for an antenna Mar 14 15:31:58 Or lock it in to one card. Mar 14 15:32:26 buz: yes, but not always directly at the area where the card is Mar 14 15:32:26 Yes - but locking it in to one card, with a certain antenna size, when it might be EOL'd by the maker in the next week... Mar 14 15:32:42 sdio cards are way too expensive Mar 14 15:32:44 it needs to be integrated Mar 14 15:32:45 yeha Mar 14 15:32:53 or fic needs to make one Mar 14 15:32:55 agreed Mar 14 15:33:07 and commit to shipping it over whole of neos life time Mar 14 15:33:56 A microSD sized 'TYPE V' sort of card - 10mm thick might be interesting. Mar 14 15:33:57 SpeedEvil: there are 4 or 5 other companies making the 88w8385 sdio modules, so zcomax isn't the only choice Mar 14 15:34:09 For camera/wifi cards. Mar 14 15:34:45 what is the power envelope for the marvell chip? Mar 14 15:34:46 And large storage capacity cards. - say 40G. Mar 14 15:35:24 SpeedEvil: when half of the phones using microsd are thinner than 10mm its not really very realistic Mar 14 15:36:02 buz: pretty standard, around 350mA peak during tx Mar 14 15:36:10 buz: but has some power saving modes Mar 14 15:36:11 prpplague: that driver of yours, is it gpl? Mar 14 15:36:59 buz: yea, its based on the libertas driver from the olpc project http://projects.linuxtogo.org/projects/marvell8385/ Mar 14 15:37:01 if its going to have wifi, it'd better have WPA support! Mar 14 15:37:14 it'd be useless without ;) Mar 14 15:37:17 agreed Mar 14 15:37:20 WPA2 even Mar 14 15:37:23 aye Mar 14 15:38:20 re :( Mar 14 15:38:25 Fax sux Mar 14 15:41:06 parag0n: yea the wpa support works with the cf interface right now Mar 14 15:41:12 TimRiker: TIMMMY! Mar 14 15:41:29 prpplague, awesome Mar 14 15:41:48 prpplague just might get that free phone Mar 14 15:41:57 buz: ? Mar 14 15:42:11 sean promised a free phone for the guy who finds him a working chipset Mar 14 15:43:12 Just wondering, is the Neo now buyable to the general public (it might be buggy, but basically useable as a simple phone)? Mar 14 15:43:28 counter Mar 14 15:43:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 20:16:31 (17.845 +-7.0 days) (537) Mar 14 15:43:45 prpplague: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-March/000007.html Mar 14 15:44:29 * prpplague looks Mar 14 15:45:22 yacc, it will be, in p1 (see aloril's time estimate) Mar 14 15:46:01 buz: looks like sean already ruled out using the libertas chipset Mar 14 15:46:05 yacc, though it'll be targeted for developers, you don't actually have to show a developer certificate or anything :] Mar 14 15:46:39 mjr: I can live with that. I can hack gtk/c well enough so that even that would be fun :) Mar 14 15:48:05 mjr: My problem is that my current 9500 is starting to fail, and I see no point trying to do Symbian developement on Linux. It's a PITA at best. ;) Mar 14 15:48:15 same with my p900 Mar 14 15:48:35 but i'm trying to hold out until summer Mar 14 15:48:39 i realllly want wifi Mar 14 15:55:13 Well, there will be rabate for p1 buyer. Mar 14 15:55:38 I admit I tend to use up phones usually below one year. Mar 14 15:56:06 No idea why nobody does sensible smartphones that are stable for everyday usage ;) Mar 14 15:56:16 heh Mar 14 15:56:19 ah, 2 weeks! Mar 14 15:56:25 I've used my n-gage for several years now Mar 14 15:56:29 works for gprs... Mar 14 15:56:29 well i first want to know how that discount looks like Mar 14 15:56:34 how are opinions on the neo so far? Mar 14 15:56:51 invalid Mar 14 15:56:58 the current device is a very early one Mar 14 15:57:21 will there be hardware changes after P1? Mar 14 15:57:37 ecraven: yes Mar 14 15:58:00 ecraven: Sean suggested that in the FOSDEM talk, and some more in mails to the list Mar 14 15:58:04 ecraven: the cpu will be faster, and one mystery addition, albeit no one knows what they'll manage to come up with. Mar 14 15:58:23 prpplague: look at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko Mar 14 15:58:38 yacc: In the last announce mail they were looking for a wifi chip with gpl drivers.. Mar 14 15:58:39 We really need a chipset (and even beyond that: Somebody manufacturing SMT modules with that chipset) Mar 14 15:58:48 so it might be worth it to wait longer than P1 to get one :) Mar 14 15:59:10 prpplague: heya! where you at? Mar 14 15:59:21 looks to me like zcomax could fill the call Mar 14 15:59:54 The mailing list needs avatars. Mar 14 16:00:18 * SpeedEvil goes looking for an avatar with its fingers in its ears saying 'la la la I'm not listening'. Mar 14 16:06:00 I hadn't realised how low SDIO wifi adaptors have gotten. Around 18 quid ($35) on ebay. Mar 14 16:06:41 we just need that SDIO wifi class driver in mainline Mar 14 16:06:54 Is there a SDIO wifi class? Mar 14 16:07:05 I thought there was only GPS, bluetooth, and camera Mar 14 16:07:56 gah I was hoping there was a WiFi one to save us chasing non existant specs Mar 14 16:08:09 I'm _pretty_ sure that tehre isn't. Mar 14 16:09:23 prpplague: i added this to the wiki "According to prplague on #openmoko, http://www.zcomax.com/1mbfile/G%20product/XG-880M_specification%20.pdf for which he is writing a GPL driver might fit the requirements." Mar 14 16:09:46 * aevin just hopes opnemoko inc. will find a decent wifi chipset with GPL'd driver. Mar 14 16:10:50 the small chipset manufacturers that works with the FOSS community by giving out specs for GPL'd drivers needs to be rewarded by getting some volume too. Mar 14 16:11:26 yeah Mar 14 16:11:30 i'm glad Sean seems to be more strict about his freedom policy than the OLPC team. Mar 14 16:11:33 yaaaa wifi wifi wifi!!!! Mar 14 16:11:51 i dont wanna to plug a usb-wifi card to use it :( Mar 14 16:12:00 You don't have to. Mar 14 16:12:05 i dont? Mar 14 16:12:11 i thought neo didnt include wifi Mar 14 16:12:12 You can desolder the bluetooth module, and fit a wifi one. Mar 14 16:12:17 ah ok Mar 14 16:12:19 aevin: if there IS one of those manufacturers Mar 14 16:12:42 buz: true. let's hope so. Mar 14 16:12:45 SpeedEvil, so there will be an option of getting it with wifi OR bluetooth? Mar 14 16:12:53 nanoradio looks reaaaally impressive Mar 14 16:12:58 Only if you have a soldering iron license. Mar 14 16:13:09 SpeedEvil, a what what? Mar 14 16:13:20 It is not an option. Mar 14 16:13:35 i dont catch your drift :) Mar 14 16:13:36 i don't know what volumes FIC can use as bait with the chip vendors, but ... probably less than OLPC project, so. we'll see. Mar 14 16:13:56 It is 'take the bluetooth module off' 'find a wifi USB module that fits in the same space' 'attach wifi module.' Mar 14 16:14:06 Entirely unsupported. Mar 14 16:15:28 buz: yes, i had a look at nanoradio too. didn't say too much about their specs, now did it? but power consumptions og gpl compatability is still unanswered, but there's a hope though. Mar 14 16:16:26 renihs: SpeedEvil is talking about modifying the phone yourself, by exchange the BT chip with a Wifi chip. not somehting the average Joe is going to do. Mar 14 16:16:27 I've clicked the 'become a partner' link, with minimal contact info. Mar 14 16:16:39 On the nanoradio site. Mar 14 16:16:54 They probably won't respond. Mar 14 16:17:43 i bet nanoradio really notices the bump in web traffic caused by OpenMokoers :) Mar 14 16:17:47 aevin, ah i have no problem with that, but i guess i cant get it without a bluetooth pre-wired at all? Mar 14 16:18:13 renihs: nope. Mar 14 16:18:28 narf Mar 14 16:18:30 XorA: There is a SDIO function code for wifi. Mar 14 16:19:10 hey all Mar 14 16:19:58 * aevin heads to the store for blueberry pie ingredients: it's Pi Day! Mar 14 16:20:57 aevin: have fun :) Mar 14 16:21:25 You should really eat it at 3:48:58AM though. Mar 14 16:22:02 Err 3:49:20 Mar 14 16:22:21 3:14:16 Mar 14 16:22:58 No - 3:49:20 AM on 3/14 Mar 14 16:23:03 5:22:14 Mar 14 16:23:16 Which is 3.14 15926 fractional day Mar 14 16:23:36 do you have a firm release date for the neo phone? Mar 14 16:23:39 No. Mar 14 16:23:48 'Late march' is as good as anyone has. Mar 14 16:23:49 3.141593 -> march 14 @ 15:93 ;-) Mar 14 16:24:06 or march 14 , year 1593 Mar 14 16:24:11 SpeedEvil: is it possible to open the sales so quick? Mar 14 16:24:19 I don't know. Mar 14 16:24:30 That is the latest information there is. Mar 14 16:24:39 for me something around late march sounds like late june or so :( Mar 14 16:24:51 They have been pretty good in announcing delays in the past. Mar 14 16:24:59 are there phone providers that ordered it yet? Mar 14 16:26:55 SpeedEvil: ? Mar 14 16:27:03 or is that secret :) Mar 14 16:28:28 No phone providers at this stage. Mar 14 16:28:34 You buy it from openmoko.com Mar 14 16:28:45 can i pre order? Mar 14 16:28:53 hi Mar 14 16:29:13 No. Mar 14 16:29:17 SpeedEvil: are you interested in beta testers=?# Mar 14 16:29:23 i would like to contribute :) Mar 14 16:29:28 Well, you can, but not yet, and the preorder site hsan't been opened. Mar 14 16:29:37 Adn all the beta testers have been sent their hardware. Mar 14 16:29:57 There is no way you can get it before when the handsets go on sale, in late march. Mar 14 16:30:23 Well - you could offer several thousand dollars for a P0 phone. Mar 14 16:30:26 ucordes: mass market is at september (phone providers, etc..) Mar 14 16:30:28 SpeedEvil: I'm really excited on this Mar 14 16:31:18 aloril: ok i see. you have any approximations if there are phone providers willing to buy it? Mar 14 16:31:33 SpeedEvil: how many beta testers do you have? Mar 14 16:31:36 ucordes: you can subscribe to announce mailing list to know when pre-ordering becomes available http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce Mar 14 16:31:48 Tehre are 36 people with hardware Mar 14 16:32:00 ucordes: well.. I think Sean has mentioned somewhere that there is interest Mar 14 16:32:04 and I'm not one of them - or a core team member, just an interested party. Mar 14 16:32:05 SpeedEvil: I hope they are useful Mar 14 16:32:22 aloril: who's sean? Mar 14 16:32:24 connery? :P Mar 14 16:32:42 ucordes: he started this whole project Mar 14 16:32:50 aloril: oh ok Mar 14 16:33:15 so you people are his emloyees? Mar 14 16:33:30 no, mostly interested third party people Mar 14 16:33:59 There are no employes active at teh moment. Mar 14 16:34:13 Some people with hardware are lurking here. Mar 14 16:34:17 SpeedEvil: but you they will sell your platform. won't you get money for this? Mar 14 16:34:25 Most of us are just waiting for late march. Mar 14 16:34:30 It's not my platform. Mar 14 16:34:37 And not directly. Mar 14 16:34:50 I plan on making some money by making specific hardware for the neo. Mar 14 16:35:25 so you're not one of the openmoko devs? Mar 14 16:35:48 ucordes: you might want to read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ , http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review if you haven't read them already Mar 14 16:35:53 SpeedEvil: well i will donate some for you if you will make an atheros wireless interface for it :) Mar 14 16:36:15 ok Mar 14 16:36:21 I have to thanks for the info Mar 14 16:42:59 hmm. does anybody here know which pins on the battery terminal of the HTC Wizard need to be connected, and at what voltage? Mar 14 16:43:00 LuitvD_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 14 16:43:17 lol, wrong trigger? :P Mar 14 16:44:49 LuitvD_: It missed because of your _ ;) Mar 14 16:44:50 hehe, you haven't talked yet using this nick ;-) Mar 14 16:45:13 hmm Mar 14 16:45:17 how did that _ get there :P Mar 14 16:49:22 Anyknow know if you have to nand wipe the uboot section of memory before you reflash uboot? Mar 14 16:56:46 he is out? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-March/004290.html Mar 14 16:57:19 (actually 2 messages backwards) Mar 14 17:00:03 sounds too good to be true Mar 14 17:03:10 TimRiker: finally back in the DFW area, however, my wife's visa is on hold again Mar 14 17:04:20 who'd have thought it Mar 14 17:06:14 I really wish j suggs had not written what he had tho Mar 14 17:06:25 it is one thing to be privately happy that someone has left Mar 14 17:06:37 it is quite another thing and unprofessional to behave like they did Mar 14 17:06:59 Whether people realise it or not every post reflects on the project and FIC Mar 14 17:07:08 people need to remmeber that before they post bullshit like that. Mar 14 17:24:35 noidd: yeah, its almost always better keep 'cool' Mar 14 17:25:19 hmm, who here is Gabriel Ambuehl? Mar 14 17:28:09 Speed: how will you package your add-in hardware? As a USB device or internal to the phone? Mar 14 17:30:00 P0 blog: http://bluelightningnz.blogspot.com/2007/03/openmoko.html Mar 14 17:31:21 SpeedEvil: add in hardware? whatcha planning to add? Mar 14 17:37:00 See [[Extension Back]] Mar 14 17:37:16 Oh good! We now have a GPL licensing discussion on the mailing list. Mar 14 17:37:20 That's always fun/. Mar 14 17:41:49 No, really? (just came home... have to boot the mailer) Mar 14 17:47:34 SpeedEvil: "See [[Extension Back]]" ? Mar 14 17:53:29 SpeedEvil: for what its worth, i updated the wiki page with some additional information http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko Mar 14 17:55:21 GPL is stupid, but it serves a useful purpose. Mar 14 17:55:47 * prpplague waits for someone to take the bait Mar 14 17:58:07 hehehe Mar 14 18:02:46 I don't even understand how you can prevent linking by legal means. Mar 14 18:03:37 loufoque: huh? it doesn't; linking is use, not distribution. Mar 14 18:03:42 perhaps you need to re-read the GPL. Mar 14 18:04:54 it prevents distribution of applications that need GPL code to be linked to be used, or applications that link GPL code at runtime. Mar 14 18:04:55 buz: i tweaked your wiki entry Mar 14 18:06:43 at least, there were several lawsuits related to those issues Mar 14 18:06:58 SpeedEvil: where did you see some sdio stacks for bt and camera in the main tree? Mar 14 18:08:24 rwhitby: thanks, i updated the mokomakefile wiki page to reflect that Mar 14 18:12:09 hmm, SpeedEvil still here? Mar 14 18:12:39 loufoque: abolish copyright, then there is less need for GPL Mar 14 18:12:46 LuitvD: think he's afk Mar 14 18:14:18 anybody know if this is any good for it's price? http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180049504098&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=180094622131&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget Mar 14 18:14:27 proplague: no - it's just that IIRC there is a standard interface. Mar 14 18:14:46 For example, GPS has a standard presentation as a 16550 mapped onto the memory space. Mar 14 18:14:51 13 euro's for a battery + shipping Mar 14 18:15:10 SpeedEvil: is it worth it's cost? Mar 14 18:15:26 htc wizard battery shipped for 13 Mar 14 18:15:58 I have no idea. If you are happy with the cost, then it's possibly worth it to you. Mar 14 18:16:18 SpeedEvil: ahh ok Mar 14 18:16:33 prpplague: [[foo]] is a general term to refer to the page on 'foo' on a wiki Mar 14 18:16:45 in this case, the openmoko wiki at wiki.openmoko.org Mar 14 18:16:46 SpeedEvil: think it's possible to find any cheaper? Mar 14 18:17:01 SpeedEvil: because i've writen my own interace for the s3c2410 sdio controler based on keffels sd driver Mar 14 18:17:06 I have no idea. Generally ebay is a cheap source of batteries. Mar 14 18:17:15 SpeedEvil: i thought so, but i didn't get a page back for that Mar 14 18:17:20 * prpplague looks again Mar 14 18:17:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back Mar 14 18:17:59 IME, you won't generally find cheaper than ebay locally, if that's what you mean. Mar 14 18:18:11 ahh, was searching for "extension" Mar 14 18:18:52 Sorry. Mar 14 18:18:56 * SpeedEvil misremembered. Mar 14 18:19:28 you tweaked it like how? Mar 14 18:19:33 i dont see any difference ;) Mar 14 18:20:14 doesnt matter though ;) Mar 14 18:20:38 SpeedEvil: according to your earlier calculation that costs 40K setup costs ;) Mar 14 18:20:50 The key is to memorise the whole wiki, then you just read the diffs. Mar 14 18:20:51 Well. Mar 14 18:20:54 buz: added some info with url's and some notes about the sychip chipset Mar 14 18:20:57 That's for mass production. Mar 14 18:21:00 ah Mar 14 18:21:02 sure Mar 14 18:21:08 I would not be doing mass production, but onesy-twosy. Mar 14 18:21:08 the ar6k stuff looks promising Mar 14 18:21:20 aloril2: I doubt artists would like it Mar 14 18:21:26 custom injection molding is prohibitively expensive Mar 14 18:21:43 SpeedEvil: you can get SLA's done for around $300USD each Mar 14 18:22:08 SpeedEvil: problem we found with the USB dongles for wifi is that consume way too much power Mar 14 18:22:09 cu Mar 14 18:22:10 Abolish the insane copyrights that we currently have. Make it 15 years, or 10 years after death. Mar 14 18:22:14 hrw: later Mar 14 18:22:23 Yeah. If you keep them on all the time. Mar 14 18:22:25 prpplague: I added some infoto wifi page Mar 14 18:22:33 hrw: cool deal Mar 14 18:22:36 * prpplague looks Mar 14 18:22:37 For some apps it's fine. Mar 14 18:22:46 10 years after dead? try ten years after registration Mar 14 18:22:54 embedded works have 10x10x2mm chips Mar 14 18:23:03 i truly dont see why anyone should be allowed to make money from stuff they did 50 years ago Mar 14 18:23:09 rwhitby: nevermind, the error persists: http://rafb.net/p/OCQLvb37.html Mar 14 18:23:10 cu Monday Mar 14 18:23:20 15 years max, and capped at 10 years from production if the author dies. Mar 14 18:23:22 openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates_svn.bb DNE Mar 14 18:23:30 hrw|conference: yea, problem we had with embedded works is they don't want to sell you the module without their driver development licenses Mar 14 18:23:58 prpplague: add to wiki Mar 14 18:24:02 bye Mar 14 18:24:06 hrw|conference: will do Mar 14 18:24:09 hrw|conference: later Mar 14 18:24:15 ah yes that's more like it Mar 14 18:24:22 and if copyright holder is a company,5 year Mar 14 18:24:38 something similar for patents Mar 14 18:24:55 If you abolish copyrights then that means artists could only earn money through concerts. Mar 14 18:25:05 why not Mar 14 18:25:20 stuff thats basically free to make should not have arbitrarily high costs Mar 14 18:25:22 prices Mar 14 18:25:32 patents shouldn't exist Mar 14 18:25:57 ah well theres a case to be made for patents Mar 14 18:26:02 just not for 17 years Mar 14 18:26:03 _novel_ patents should. Mar 14 18:26:14 And probably not for 17 years in software. Mar 14 18:26:19 i think patents in general are ok, just software patents suck Mar 14 18:26:21 I f you allow those at all. Mar 14 18:26:39 SpeedEvil: i'm constantly surprised that the USB group didn't make a 3.3v standard for USB Mar 14 18:26:46 if we were gardeners we would think gardenind related patents suck :p Mar 14 18:26:52 SpeedEvil: seems like they would have learned from the mistakes of pcmcia and cf Mar 14 18:26:55 At the time it wasn't a very standard voltage. Mar 14 18:27:08 5V was needed for much stuff. Mar 14 18:27:35 balrog-kun: no, the difference is with regular patents you have to encourage innovation, because research typically involves a lot more costs, e.g. for materials Mar 14 18:27:38 If we're arguing about voltages, there should have also been a 30V 'high power' mode, that'd run most stuff without the need for power bricks. Mar 14 18:27:44 SpeedEvil: agreed, but at the time of release, it was already obvious that pcmcia and cf cards were moving to 3.3v support because of mobil useage Mar 14 18:27:50 balrog-kun: with software, you don't have all these costs, and you can basically produce it for free Mar 14 18:28:08 SpeedEvil: hehe, no argument, just comparing Mar 14 18:28:08 You have a 'power hub' that has a large power supply, and provides 30V to all ports that want it. Mar 14 18:28:10 balrog-kun: thus software is special in that area Mar 14 18:28:20 SpeedEvil: yea Mar 14 18:28:36 nbd: yea perhaps you're right Mar 14 18:28:37 software is already (over)protected by copyright Mar 14 18:28:39 So for example, you could just plug in one cable to charge and use battery devices. Mar 14 18:28:51 buz: yeah Mar 14 18:29:21 SpeedEvil: is the sd socket on the neo actually connected to the s3c2410's sdi or is it a spi based socket? Mar 14 18:29:29 another thing is: patents were temporary monopolies only granted in return for a company sharing its secrets with everybody Mar 14 18:29:30 No idea. Mar 14 18:29:35 with software, the secret is out once the product is sold Mar 14 18:29:45 thus the temporary monopoly is granted in return for essentially nothing Mar 14 18:29:49 Well. Mar 14 18:29:54 SpeedEvil: hmm Mar 14 18:29:57 There is the argument that they encourage research. Mar 14 18:29:59 actually, with softpats and binary only, the secret is never truly shared Mar 14 18:30:10 SpeedEvil: they most likely do Mar 14 18:30:15 Hmm. Mar 14 18:30:16 but shorter time spans would do too Mar 14 18:30:41 IIRC there was a list of addresses on the SPI bus, that diddn't mention anything about the card. Mar 14 18:30:44 buz: binary only doesn't stop people from reverse engineering Mar 14 18:30:46 So... Mar 14 18:30:53 buz: reverse engineering software is a lot easier than reverse engineering hardware Mar 14 18:31:14 any idiot could RE the hardware that was in use at the time patents were invented Mar 14 18:31:54 SpeedEvil: you most likely could use the sd slot for a 88w8388 based card Mar 14 18:32:13 i thought sean explicitely said that one wont work Mar 14 18:32:21 Sure it will. Mar 14 18:32:28 Put a microSD-SD cable on it. Mar 14 18:32:31 plug into the end. Mar 14 18:32:31 not for them Mar 14 18:32:38 Of course, you lose the microSD. Mar 14 18:32:47 There are also SPI-USB chips. Mar 14 18:32:50 Which are fun. Mar 14 18:33:05 Host and peripheral, $4 or so. Mar 14 18:34:02 buz: i'd have to see the schematic, or possible some kernel code, but if they used the sdi controller on the s3c2410 to the microsd slot, then you should be able to run as sdio Mar 14 18:34:39 i dont really want to sacrifice expansion memory though Mar 14 18:35:20 It'd be nice if someone would do a SDIO-SDIO bridge chip. Mar 14 18:35:27 buz: you can add some sd/mmc easy with spi interface Mar 14 18:35:27 SDIO cards can have 7 functions. Mar 14 18:35:37 SpeedEvil: yea Mar 14 18:35:44 SpeedEvil: i was looking at that myself Mar 14 18:35:56 If you made a 'bridge' chip, it could fake multiple function cards out of multiple cards. Mar 14 18:36:07 sdio hub Mar 14 18:36:09 SpeedEvil: once i have some stuff working, i'm gonna try using an avr to simulate a sdio device Mar 14 18:36:20 Why? Mar 14 18:36:46 is there even any space in neo to stuff a minisdio card Mar 14 18:36:50 with cable i mean Mar 14 18:36:58 A flat cable. Mar 14 18:37:06 It would fit round the SIM, out to the back. Mar 14 18:37:06 SpeedEvil: to be able to use some specific hardware designs we need Mar 14 18:37:11 Ah. Mar 14 18:37:20 i dont want no flatcable outside the device Mar 14 18:37:28 thats gonna last for like 3minutes Mar 14 18:37:28 tops Mar 14 18:37:32 I mean to an [[expansion back]] Mar 14 18:37:45 oh right. THAT one ;) Mar 14 18:38:22 SpeedEvil: hehe, add a se955 symbol barcode scanner to your expansion pack too Mar 14 18:38:32 Camera. Mar 14 18:38:34 i'd start drooling instantly if there was neo with wifi :/ Mar 14 18:39:34 SpeedEvil: oh, and also, if you are using the usb host controller on the s3c2410, its just usb 1.1 which means you will never get full G bandwidth Mar 14 18:39:46 you can remove a part of the plastic-resonator for the stereo-speakers and fiddle something small in there and wire it to the gpio/usb Mar 14 18:40:23 SpeedEvil: if you are happy with B bandwidth usb would be ok Mar 14 18:40:29 Do I really care? The microSD probably can't even write at 54g speeds. Mar 14 18:40:38 err 11g Mar 14 18:40:42 1mbit wifi would be plenty Mar 14 18:40:52 And you certainly can't do video at that rate. Mar 14 18:41:15 SpeedEvil: yea, the sdi controller on the s3c2410 can do around 100mhz Mar 14 18:41:27 SpeedEvil: sorry 25mhz Mar 14 18:41:33 SpeedEvil: x4 Mar 14 18:41:43 well - maybe you can, but just uncompressed. Mar 14 18:42:23 SpeedEvil: 4 bits with a 25mhz clock , which basically give 100mbps Mar 14 18:43:16 Oh - sure, I just mean that at that speed you'll fill RAM in a few seconds. Mar 14 18:44:34 loufoque: artists have been 'brainwashed': not all artist realize that they are not only producers, but also consumers; especially good artists are consumers (example Shakespeare): copyright makes this much harder than back then Mar 14 18:45:06 SpeedEvil: i've been able to get a solid 54mbps connection with the 88w8385 , most of the time the actual transfer speed is about 48mbps Mar 14 18:45:38 :) Mar 14 18:46:18 aloril2: how does a book writer earns money without copyright? Anyone is free to sell books without giving any money to the author. Mar 14 18:46:18 SpeedEvil: http://www.elinux.org/wiki/M5900 Mar 14 18:46:39 aloril2: a solution would be to pay the author to write Mar 14 18:47:51 aloril2: that isn't such a bad idea, since you're paid for the work you do instead of being paid for how many samples are bought once the work is done. Mar 14 18:47:55 loufoque / aloril2 : i'm no sysop here, and i've wandered off-topic a number of times myself, but i wish you guys would carry your discussion somewhere else Mar 14 18:54:02 about patents: just look at current problems in finding GPL compatible WiFi chipsets: why are they hiding stuff if patent system is working? Mar 14 18:54:26 (or GPUs) Mar 14 18:54:47 because lawyers are paranoid Mar 14 18:55:02 just because it's working *now* means it'll work tomorrow... Mar 14 18:55:05 Mar 14 18:55:33 * aloril2 suspects much effective would be price system for most efficient, smallest, etc.. with full disclosure Mar 14 18:56:38 Has anyone read the long paragraph at the end of this mail? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-March/004269.html Mar 14 18:56:55 I hope the P1 phones aren't "for the shelf"... Mar 14 18:57:34 thats not what was originally promised, anyway Mar 14 18:57:47 and it would be really bad for the project Mar 14 18:58:46 Elrond: unlikely for the Neo, but his assessment of engineering samples in general agrees with my experience Mar 14 18:58:54 There is essentially no reason for it to. Mar 14 18:59:06 Leaving stuff in the makefile is 'free'. Mar 14 18:59:11 Pretty much at this level. Mar 14 18:59:13 Elrond: He mainly means the P0 phones in that mail Mar 14 18:59:22 p0 phones are free Mar 14 18:59:34 'developers buying the engineering samples'... Mar 14 18:59:45 should think of them as essentially Mar 14 18:59:45 disposable with a shelf-life of 6 months. Mar 14 18:59:54 you simply shouldnt sell engineering samples Mar 14 19:00:02 As I understood the P1 would be close to final HW. Mar 14 19:00:06 hi wansti Mar 14 19:00:12 or be final HW Mar 14 19:00:13 thats what i was lead to believe to Mar 14 19:00:21 however, now it might be p1.5 that is close to final Mar 14 19:00:51 aloril2: so that people wouldn't see they're infringing patents Mar 14 19:00:52 And P0 phones were indeed free or stuck at customs as is mine :-( Mar 14 19:01:04 Still? Mar 14 19:01:46 only ms and possibly apple generally sell engineering samples Mar 14 19:01:56 do we know yet what P1+ will have as new hardware? Mar 14 19:02:09 No. Mar 14 19:02:10 hi there Mar 14 19:02:13 Not for certain. Mar 14 19:02:17 hey alphaone Mar 14 19:02:28 SpeedEvil: yep... :-( Mar 14 19:03:11 with a bit of luck I might get it by september... Mar 14 19:03:44 philippe: might want to go pick up your P1 device in person ;) Mar 14 19:03:59 probably :-) Mar 14 19:04:40 I just wish DHL would not be in between me and customs so I could actually figure out what the problem is. Mar 14 19:07:15 philippe: which country is this? Mar 14 19:08:47 guaqua: Finland Mar 14 19:09:27 Seems they absolutely want to tax me for a free engineering sample. Mar 14 19:09:34 Nokia have people in customs, holding it up. Mar 14 19:09:51 Well - worst case, pay the $70 Mar 14 19:09:56 or whatever. Mar 14 19:10:16 SpeedEvil: I would not mind too much, if they just could make up their mind. Mar 14 19:10:32 and you can't call the customs directly? Mar 14 19:10:39 And everything has to pass through DHL so I have no clue what is going on. Mar 14 19:10:50 I'd try calling customs direct. Mar 14 19:11:15 guaqua: As DHL is in between I don't even know who is handling it, and they seem to keep the package at DHL. Mar 14 19:11:28 so customs cannot help me. Mar 14 19:11:42 so no-one takes responsibility and nothing happens...gotta love the bureucracy Mar 14 19:11:59 especially since I have no invoice as I did not have to pay for it... Mar 14 19:12:10 philippe - Just get to customs and tell them, that they have something from you, and you want it. Mar 14 19:12:26 If they were not 300km away I would Mar 14 19:12:30 hmm Mar 14 19:12:47 where is it exactly located at? Mar 14 19:12:54 hmmh, DHL has been rather helpful in resolving customs issues in my experience - but the customs office is a real pain in the butt Mar 14 19:12:57 philippe - No customs office near you? Mar 14 19:13:09 I'm in the middle of germany, and there's a customs office in my city. Mar 14 19:13:23 Elrond: there is one here in Tampere. I could try to go there. Mar 14 19:13:41 they just don't take "no invoice" for an answer - but the do accept any kind of pdf that hardly even resembles an invoice Mar 14 19:13:43 so it's being kept in helsinki, right? Mar 14 19:13:50 philippe - Just go there and keep sitting there until they help you. ;o) Mar 14 19:13:56 guaqua: well at DHL Helsinki. Mar 14 19:14:44 Next time I make them send it to Nokia. They have people who deal with this kind of thing. Mar 14 19:15:44 and I'm pretty certain I could also get the contact information for the customs person handling the issue from DHL Mar 14 19:16:23 Hadaka: I bugged her today (well planned too) but she already left (and it was only 14h30) so I mailed. Mar 14 19:16:47 philippe: i have some free time on friday Mar 14 19:17:05 philippe: well that's a bummer Mar 14 19:17:06 so if there is a physical need to go somewhere to sort things, i might be able to help Mar 14 19:17:40 the DHL head office moved to vantaa though :/ Mar 14 19:18:01 guaqua: kiitos Mar 14 19:19:41 their head place's location however... Mar 14 19:19:41 Will this end in a flame war, if I reply to this "buying engeneering samples" mail? Mar 14 19:19:52 it's somewhere in the middle of nowhere Mar 14 19:20:10 guaqua: yeah, they were in meilahti, but moved to vantaa :( Mar 14 19:20:28 meilahti would've been really nice Mar 14 19:21:47 there's a tiny DHL office on aleksanterinkatu though and atleast when sitting there, somebody has to do something about the issues Mar 14 19:22:34 Or call the police. Mar 14 19:22:59 Hadaka: I'll see what DHL answers Mar 14 19:23:11 if that does not help I'll bug customs Mar 14 19:23:15 SpeedEvil: :-) Mar 14 19:23:20 SpeedEvil - instruction police? ;) Mar 14 19:23:48 Or is there some some "#OM police"? ;o) Mar 14 19:24:22 the openmoko police is prpplague Mar 14 19:24:44 gotta go for a while now Mar 14 19:24:47 later more Mar 14 19:27:52 good day everyone. i just got a neo1973 from harald to play with. and so i thought id stick my noses in here, see whats going on. ;) Mar 14 19:27:58 :) Mar 14 19:28:09 Not much. Mar 14 19:28:20 Just debate on when P1 will ship. Mar 14 19:28:46 I wonder why isn't UMTS seriously considered Mar 14 19:28:57 is the hardware that expensive? Mar 14 19:29:37 It's more expensive, and less global. Mar 14 19:30:15 * prom also heard something about the documentation situation being even worse for the UMTS-capable chipsets. Mar 14 19:32:39 actually, now that i have my neo (GTA01Bv2) opened up, i have a question too. does anyone know which of the wirewrapped patches does what? i had a problem getting through to the GSM module and one of the wires got clamped. Mar 14 19:32:39 prom: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 14 19:33:37 prom i have the same patch here on mine... near some crystal and adding some smd-transistor? Mar 14 19:34:15 doesn't Japan not support GSM? Mar 14 19:35:02 roh: no, the transistor patch is fine. this one goes from between the three big inductors and the PCF50606 to $somewhere_below_the_display. Mar 14 19:35:12 uhm Mar 14 19:35:34 prom we should try if mine has the same problems Mar 14 19:36:13 roh: yapp. but harald allready mentioned that he got some more reports of GSM not working and suspects software issues. Mar 14 19:51:58 TimRiker: re Mar 14 19:52:30 morning all Mar 14 19:52:39 rwhitby: greetings Mar 14 19:52:57 openmoko: 03laforge * r1363 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: Mar 14 19:52:57 openmoko: Add support for enabling/disabling fast charge Mar 14 19:52:57 openmoko: FIXME: if we disable fast charge, we should go back to trickle/pre charge! Mar 14 19:53:21 * rwhitby continues looking at how devirginator might be packaged into a .ipk for installation on an NSLU2 ... Mar 14 19:53:50 openmoko: 03laforge * r1364 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (3 files): Add support for two USB configurations, one of which is 500mA and the other one is 100mA. Once the host issues SET_CONFIGURATION, the apropriate charging mode is selected Mar 14 19:57:33 Woo! Mar 14 19:57:58 I suspect most peoples charging problems just got sorted. Mar 14 20:08:38 SpeedEvil: I asked this before but missed your answer. How are you implementing additional hardware? USB dongle? Internal to the Neo? Mar 14 20:09:11 counter Mar 14 20:09:11 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 15:50:48 (17.660 +-7.0 days) (538) Mar 14 20:09:40 On the ML we're discussing data over the GSM voice channel. Could you implement a 103-type modem in hardware? Software? Mar 14 20:17:35 Elrond: good post Mar 14 20:21:41 rwhitby: OM svn HEAD doesn't have any bb files for openmoko-pim http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/?rev=1358 Mar 14 20:21:52 patches can't be applied :) Mar 14 20:23:40 MacNorth: mokomakefile head doesn't have any patches for openmoko-pim Mar 14 20:23:51 you need to make update Mar 14 20:24:12 i did: http://rafb.net/p/OCQLvb37.html Mar 14 20:27:38 oh, you're still using the old rep. sorry. Mar 14 20:27:44 mv patches patches.old Mar 14 20:27:48 make update-makefile Mar 14 20:27:55 make setup Mar 14 20:28:04 i svn co'ed yesterday :( Mar 14 20:28:34 I moved the mokomakefile repo to svn.nslu2-linux.org until projects.openmoko.org gets anon svn access fixed. Mar 14 20:28:45 ah, gotcha Mar 14 20:30:05 i'll revert the wiki edit Mar 14 20:35:42 buz - Thanks. I hope not to start another Mike-ish thread... Mar 14 20:37:20 MokoMakefile unique IP downloads has hit 1107 Mar 14 20:39:10 rwhitby: when we meet in person I'm going to buy you a beer. Or two. Mar 14 20:39:51 DukeOfURL: Coopers Pale Ale please. Two. Mar 14 20:40:01 k Mar 14 20:40:28 I'm in Denver Colorado. Mar 14 20:43:27 Next time my US flights take me via Denver, I'll take you up on that :-) Mar 14 20:43:57 * rwhitby announces 1000 OpenMoko external developers on the community list. Mar 14 20:51:20 * MacNorth is in denver as well Mar 14 20:51:49 coopers pale?! little creatures, thanks Mar 14 20:53:36 mobile.de Mar 14 20:55:30 MacNorth: where in Denver? Mar 14 20:55:42 near the hospitals on 20th Mar 14 20:58:20 rwhitby: 1001, you forgot me Mar 14 20:59:06 loufoque: no, you evened out the people who's IP address changes. Mar 14 21:00:47 rwhitby - You didn't include the slashdort fudge factor in your unique ip calc. ;o)) Mar 14 21:01:19 Elrond: what's that factor? I wasn't aware that MokoMakefile had been slashdotted. Mar 14 21:02:13 DukeOfURL [[expansion back]] Mar 14 21:02:41 rwhitby - Well, if MM was slashdotted, the factor would be lots different. But you can assume, that some people just download MM, try it, don't understnad anything and throw it away again. ;o) Mar 14 21:03:01 DukeOfURL: there are several ways - USB, I2C - which in P1 will require solder, or passive means like reading the vibrator motor driver for output only. Mar 14 21:03:49 Elrond: right, and as the email said, that balances out the developers who don't use MokoMakefile at all. Mar 14 21:05:11 (i.e. there is no *real* way to measure this, so you pull some real figures from somewhere (MokoMakefile downloads), wave your hands around a bit, then call it a milestone) Please don't bring actual correctness of figures into a marketing stunt :-) Mar 14 21:05:16 has anything openmoko-related been slashdotted in the end? Mar 14 21:05:32 i haven't noticed anything Mar 14 21:05:57 balrog-kun: no, it's been unusually un-noticed by slashdot. Mar 14 21:06:03 balrog-kun - The wiki was slashdotted. Mar 14 21:06:12 When? Mar 14 21:06:20 Oh - you mean right at the start. Mar 14 21:06:22 Very close after being opened. Mar 14 21:06:27 ah ok Mar 14 21:06:28 I don't believe that was slashdotted - that was just mailing listed. Mar 14 21:06:47 rwhitby: good, slashdotting will be quite good at some point Mar 14 21:06:49 slashdotted in the wider sense. ;o) Mar 14 21:07:10 I wonder if the OM website can cope with a full /. Mar 14 21:07:29 Or if a 'reduced bandwidth' static copy would be a good idea. Mar 14 21:09:55 MokoMakefile: NOTE: Task failed: /home/mike/moko/build/tmp/work/x86_64-linux/db3-native-3.2.9-r2/temp/log.do_compile.28384 Mar 14 21:10:01 ? Mar 14 21:10:33 DukeOfURL: pastebin please (including the do_compile logfile referenced) Mar 14 21:21:24 rwhitby: http://pastebin.com/899063 Mar 14 21:27:18 counter Mar 14 21:27:18 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 14:32:41 (17.606 +-7.0 days) (539) Mar 14 21:28:05 DukeOfURL: pastebin.ca (or one of the others) is much faster than pastebin.com Mar 14 21:29:57 * rwhitby still waits for pastebin.com to respond ... Mar 14 21:30:20 ffs why is wget wonky? Mar 14 21:30:50 DukeOfURL: I think that's a known problem on 64 bit in OE - can you ask in #oe? Mar 14 21:31:13 * rwhitby stays away from 64 bit for such reasons ... Mar 14 21:31:17 k Mar 14 21:31:20 thx Mar 14 22:01:29 yosh got wget working again -- actiontec router dproxy bug Mar 14 22:01:35 SpeedEvil: does sean ever show up here? Mar 14 22:02:48 ... Mar 14 22:02:56 * SpeedEvil doesn't remember him popping up. Mar 14 22:03:14 A couple of the core dev team do. Mar 14 22:03:15 SpeedEvil: ahh ok Mar 14 22:05:07 if i was him, i would only show up incongnito Mar 14 22:09:33 I saw Sean exactly once in here. Mar 14 22:09:49 Sean incognito? I doubt it. Mar 14 22:09:56 (wishful thinking?) Mar 14 22:22:42 just think what would happen if he came here. everyone would ask what service to get. after all we need an official answer Mar 14 22:22:54 Fan service! Mar 14 22:22:56 (sorry). Mar 14 22:23:07 Adult service! Mar 14 22:23:09 * Stephmw hides Mar 14 22:23:10 oh and of course Mar 14 22:23:15 Wifi? Mar 14 22:23:16 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some model later this year probably will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Mar 14 22:23:35 V12 Mar 14 22:35:59 no mail on community@ for an hour? Mar 14 22:40:59 Stephmw - We had that discussion already here. I'm not going to cite any details, but the ideas included things with BT. ;o) Mar 14 22:41:31 teledildonics... yes, I read TheRegister too ;) Mar 14 22:42:04 I haven't read "TheRegister". Mar 14 22:42:25 Did I miss anything? Mar 14 22:43:09 not recently afair Mar 14 22:43:22 Elrond: theregister.co.uk - tech news Mar 14 22:43:49 Yeah, I know it. But just don't read it very often. Mar 14 22:43:53 ah Mar 14 22:44:02 I just use the rss feed Mar 14 22:46:01 SpeedEvil - Does Fan service include Sean signed phones? ;o) Mar 14 22:47:22 Elrond: maybe they'll give them the Vertu treatment Mar 14 22:47:57 Vertu? Mar 14 22:48:34 http://www.vertu.com/homepage.jsp?lang=en Mar 14 22:49:31 http://www.mobiledia.com/reviews/vertu/signature-2006/page1.html Mar 14 22:49:40 ... we're not at all the target market segment :) Mar 14 22:51:21 tihi ;) Mar 14 22:51:42 "$60K for the platinum (with solitaire diamond), Vertus are not for the faint of heart, or wallet." Mar 14 22:52:21 Why not? Mar 14 22:52:45 You think the rich don't deserve decent phones too? :) Mar 14 22:53:19 *G* Mar 14 22:53:19 that's the thing... these are basic phones :) Mar 14 22:53:35 An actual well-done phone - good SAW diamond faced touchscreen, ... Mar 14 22:53:49 You mean, the Neo is "better"? ;o) Mar 14 22:54:09 No - I mean a neo with an upgraded display and case. Mar 14 22:54:13 :D Mar 14 23:06:50 *G Mar 14 23:06:52 * Mar 14 23:28:45 * CM takes a nap Mar 14 23:46:22 counter Mar 14 23:46:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 12:13:37 (17.509 +-7.0 days) (540) Mar 14 23:54:02 counter-- Mar 15 00:08:54 Any outstanding MokoMakefile problems? Mar 15 00:12:51 so far no :) Mar 15 00:13:06 (now that i have the right Makefile) Mar 15 00:13:20 (and fixed my buggy router) Mar 15 00:17:54 cool - so the only problems I know about at the moment are both stock OpenEmbedded 64-bit support problems, Mar 15 00:19:14 i'm at glibc right now, so it'll be a few more hours before it finishes. Mar 15 00:20:43 is all this recompiling that i see people doing in here because FIC/phase0 guys are coming out with a new patch for some bug every day or so? Mar 15 00:43:40 Psi: yes, kind of. Mar 15 01:04:36 openmoko: 03werner * r1365 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: Mar 15 01:04:36 openmoko: - ${mtdparts} was missing in menu_1 bootargs Mar 15 01:04:36 openmoko: - added sd_image_name mechanism from Mar 15 01:04:36 openmoko: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD Mar 15 01:10:32 Is werner in IRC? Mar 15 01:14:54 rwhitby: no one is in IRC Mar 15 01:15:13 loufoque: just wondering if we went under a different nick. Mar 15 01:15:59 the wener online at freenode now isn't him, at least. Mar 15 01:16:04 *werner Mar 15 01:16:34 rwhitby: send him a mail or something. if he's working, he's probably checking mail as well. Mar 15 01:16:53 aevin: already communicating by email - hoping to speed up the interaction Mar 15 01:17:38 aha. Mar 15 01:18:56 btw, on his reply to you on the devel-ML about devirginator, did he mean the package had to be called something else that devirginator? what's wrong with that name? Mar 15 01:19:02 *than Mar 15 01:19:37 aevin: it's too sex biased Mar 15 01:19:58 no, he was talking about setup,sh Mar 15 01:20:50 okay. Mar 15 01:57:46 rwhitby: im using mokomakefile and my CPU fan has suddenly started making horrible noises. if i kill it now (doing make openmoko-devel-image at the moment), is it going to do all this stuff again when i run it again? Mar 15 02:11:13 Agrajag-: where is it up to? Mar 15 02:11:40 if it's in the middle of building packages, then yeah, you can stop and restart it and it will pick up where it left off. Mar 15 02:12:38 openmoko: 03caowai_song * r1366 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-keyboard/ (configure.ac layouts/Makefile.am src/Makefile.am): Update the config files, change matchbox to openmoko Mar 15 02:13:00 rwhitby looks like it's building glibc Mar 15 02:13:47 ta.. i think i'll stop it anyway Mar 15 02:14:09 MokoMakefile is a good machine stress test .... Mar 15 02:14:59 heh Mar 15 02:36:28 lol, a review of Gnome 2 Dev Guide Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/discussionboard/discussion.html/ref=cm_rdp_st_rd/103-2663263-8195863?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1593270305&store=yourstore&cdThread=TxP1TNBJU43D14&reviewID=R39E6IGJZ6GAA5&displayType=ReviewDetail **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Mar 15 02:59:59 2007