**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 24 02:59:57 2007 Mar 24 03:02:57 coutner Mar 24 03:03:01 counter Mar 24 03:03:01 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 3 days 08:56:58 (10.373 +-7.0 days) (610) Mar 24 03:45:30 hmm... http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/03/23/neo1973-and-wifi/ Mar 24 03:45:40 and http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/03/24/things-falling-into-place-for-p1/ Mar 24 03:47:29 2 weeks yesterday..., thats 4 days forward compared to current counter, hmm.. uncertainty though already includes that Mar 24 03:54:12 is this correct? (articles, asking to avoid grammar edits in wiki): "This would be end of the first week of April." Mar 24 03:55:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Mickey]] Mar 24 03:57:31 counter Mar 24 03:57:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 3 days 08:02:28 (10.335 +-7.0 days) (611) Mar 24 03:57:40 cool Mar 24 03:58:37 * aloril is pondering moving counter 2 or more days forward Mar 24 04:06:19 counter Mar 24 04:06:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 6 days 07:53:40 (13.329 +-7.0 days) (612) Mar 24 04:06:56 +3 days (early week -> near end of week) Mar 24 04:09:37 meh - I'm not fussed Mar 24 04:10:10 it'll probably take ages to come out to Sydney anyhoo :) Mar 24 04:10:18 well.. I should probably have that change some time ago ;-) Mar 24 04:10:51 first week == middle of week, not start of week ;-) Mar 24 04:12:07 I'm happy that it's soon Mar 24 04:12:24 not some kind of Duke Nuke 'em deadline Mar 24 04:12:43 and my first environment make hasn't even finished yet Mar 24 04:12:55 might be complete by the time I get the handset :D Mar 24 04:14:48 I should check on the Sydney LUG mailing list if anyone else is planning on getting a P1 Mar 24 04:16:01 hardware being OK and ready sounds promising and software almost there too Mar 24 04:16:27 sounds like it could even arrive if you include uncertainty too ;-) Mar 24 04:20:11 :D Mar 24 04:22:10 P0 devices arrived in about 2 days Mar 24 04:23:04 within Europe? Mar 24 04:23:26 I guess Sydney won't be a problem Mar 24 04:23:58 if the phones are coming from Taiwan, then there should be no hassle getting them here Mar 24 04:24:25 soooo much stuff comes from Taiwan to here, I believe Mar 24 04:24:38 from Taiwan to Europe Mar 24 04:24:56 it was 2 or 3 days to Australia Mar 24 04:25:19 oh? who's in Oz? Mar 24 04:25:32 * aloril points at rwhitby Mar 24 04:26:56 they should be shipped from EU too, dunno if that means at same time as from Taiwan or a bit later Mar 24 04:29:31 fair enough. doesn't sound like there'll be much delay for most folk then. Mar 24 04:29:52 that's nice to know that rwhitby is in Oz Mar 24 04:30:07 I thought the majority of people were in Europe Mar 24 04:30:27 dotmef: nice, so you can pay him a visit when you break your phone? :) Mar 24 04:31:19 osamosi: screw that! I'll just steal his! ;) Mar 24 04:31:32 Right... Mar 24 04:32:15 one of the reasons that it's good to know about people in Oz is that they're in the same time zone Mar 24 04:35:07 morning Mar 24 04:35:36 morning Mar 24 04:35:55 g'day Mar 24 04:35:55 dotmef: 2 days DHL from Taiwan to Adelaide Mar 24 04:36:17 sweet. Mar 24 04:36:18 TWN->HKG->SIN->ADL Mar 24 04:37:25 and I guess I can track via DHL in case anything goes funny en-route Mar 24 04:37:41 seeing as you've had no trouble, I can't think I would have any Mar 24 04:38:09 yeah, it was marked "Engineering Sample" and it's less than AUD$1K anyway, so no duty payable. Mar 24 04:38:25 right Mar 24 04:40:45 I guess the P1 phones are still development class items, so they may still be marked as samples too Mar 24 04:52:09 rwhitby: ta for the info on delivery. Mar 24 04:52:19 time for me to go vote. Mar 24 04:52:27 cheers all Mar 24 04:54:35 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] Mar 24 05:54:36 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] Mar 24 07:49:29 good morning Mar 24 08:21:11 wow real quite for a irc room of 221 users Mar 24 08:39:12 * _MacNorth trips over bucket of jacks Mar 24 09:37:38 counter Mar 24 09:37:39 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 6 days 02:22:21 (13.099 +-7.0 days) (613) Mar 24 09:52:22 you know -7 days ago it wasn't released Mar 24 10:07:09 +-7 days is the uncertainty Mar 24 10:07:59 Yeah but -7 uncertanty didn't happen! Mar 24 10:08:14 umm Mar 24 10:08:16 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/03/24/things-falling-into-place-for-p1/ Mar 24 10:08:23 entry from today says two weeks Mar 24 10:08:27 look again at the where the uncertainty is centered Mar 24 10:10:28 I'm just saying that now we ae looking more at +7 -5 uncertainty Mar 24 10:11:08 Hi ppl Mar 24 10:11:10 counter Mar 24 10:11:10 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 6 days 01:48:49 (13.076 +-7.0 days) (614) Mar 24 10:11:27 I really think arguments over 2 days are kind of pointless. Mar 24 10:12:04 but people soooooo enjoy them! Mar 24 10:12:23 arguments? where? Mar 24 10:12:23 * ewanm89 agrees with Stephmw Mar 24 10:13:45 * SpeedEvil points to the argument room. Mar 24 10:14:15 The script could have been coded the script to adjust the figure. Mar 24 10:14:57 A week, 6 days = 13 days Mar 24 10:14:59 s/ the script // Mar 24 10:15:01 ewanm89 meant: The script could have been codedto adjust the figure. Mar 24 10:15:19 Thanks apt Mar 24 10:15:37 ~botsnack Mar 24 10:15:38 Stephmw: aw, gee Mar 24 10:16:28 You would need two figures a minimum bound and a maximum bound. Mar 24 10:17:05 which can also be expressed as a target + uncertainty - as it does. Mar 24 10:49:21 " Many more things *cant* be done with SVG that can be done with flash. actionscript, video, audio [..]" Mar 24 10:49:25 * koen calls bullshit Mar 24 10:49:44 svg supports scripting via javascript and embedding of objects Mar 24 10:50:37 svg is xml based! Mar 24 10:50:55 correct Mar 24 10:51:22 I always use svg where I can. Mar 24 10:51:28 Personally I think the audiences are too different to try comparing those two anyway Mar 24 10:51:59 Agreen, svg is for scalable graphics like logos! Mar 24 10:52:13 not really Mar 24 10:52:28 s/Agreen/Agreed/ Mar 24 10:52:29 ewanm89 meant: Agreed, svg is for scalable graphics like logos! Mar 24 10:52:45 I more meant that lots of artsy people who do Flash would be overwhelmed by having to do their effects using JavaScript Mar 24 10:53:00 ITC demo-ed a vector map browser that was svg with embedded scripting Mar 24 10:53:20 abraxa_: that's why GUI's and IDE's exist Mar 24 10:55:40 There's an IDE that lets you create Flash-like embedded SVGs? Mar 24 10:56:15 tag Mar 24 10:56:30 abraxa_: sort of, the big GIS apps allow export to svg (or svgtiny) Mar 24 10:56:35 Heya PBeck Mar 24 10:57:19 Hm... not quite what I had in mind but ok :) Mar 24 11:01:11 Somebody knows dedicated server? Mar 24 11:01:38 a good dedicated server Mar 24 11:01:42 fucking keyword Mar 24 11:02:02 depends on the country Mar 24 11:03:01 it doesn't matter Mar 24 11:03:09 germany: hetzner.de Mar 24 11:03:18 danke :) Mar 24 11:03:20 switzerland: nine.ch (disclaimer: i occasionaly work for them) Mar 24 11:03:50 french low cost: http://www.dedibox.fr/ Mar 24 11:04:44 I got a good feeling with french people :P Mar 24 11:04:57 thanks buz & cedric :) Mar 24 11:05:16 i can vouch for both Mar 24 11:05:35 besides, iirc openmoko is hosted at hetzner ;) Mar 24 11:05:52 Mandarino: french people are annoying Mar 24 11:06:04 loufoque: thanks :) Mar 24 11:06:06 I know that well, since I'm French myself. Mar 24 11:06:12 My last girlfriend was french :P I know :P Mar 24 11:06:47 buz I'm looking for a dedicated server for openmoko.es :) Mar 24 11:06:50 count Mar 24 11:06:57 counter Mar 24 11:06:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 6 days 00:53:02 (13.037 +-7.0 days) (615) Mar 24 11:07:06 Mandarino: hetzner should be fast all over europe Mar 24 11:07:20 and 50? for a machine with RAID1 is a very good deal Mar 24 11:07:35 koen: according to my tests, flash is more efficient than svg. Mar 24 11:08:00 that may be more a quality of implementation issue though Mar 24 11:08:06 yeah, 3d stuff with canvas is unbearably slow Mar 24 11:08:31 I didn't even try 3D, I'm talking about 2D Mar 24 11:10:05 * buz is eager for news about wifi Mar 24 11:10:50 i hope specs for 1.5 will be out at the time we can order P1 devices Mar 24 11:21:13 It's been stated that they will. Mar 24 11:27:38 * philippe likes it that koen supports my opionion about SVG :-) Mar 24 11:32:53 grrr.. Anybody here who has successfully build and flashed a rootfs on the Neo? Mar 24 12:17:05 mickey|zzZZzz: thanks for that blog post Mar 24 12:30:25 Hi Mar 24 12:32:31 Anyone here got any info on thw hardware revision between phase1 and two? I'd like to see wifi, it'd make the phone so much more versatile. Mar 24 12:32:31 wzkfmmly: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 24 12:35:29 there's no info yet if wifi is feasible in that timeframe Mar 24 12:36:54 Hmm.. you see, the thing that sparked my hopes for wifi was this blog post: http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/03/23/neo1973-and-wifi/ Mar 24 12:38:37 yesyes, they're trying Mar 24 12:39:05 more flash, faster cpu and wifi would be great :D Mar 24 12:39:34 with this specs the neo would be a sucess i think :) Mar 24 12:39:37 Yeah, but it's all uncertain, and we'll never get everything at the same time. Mar 24 12:40:24 But, i've been thinkning, it we don't get embedded wifi, there's still ways to implement it Mar 24 12:41:31 Even thoug the usb is unpowered, you could use a usb powerinjector, and a usb laptop wifi adapter Mar 24 12:41:56 thats not very mobil ... Mar 24 12:42:08 Naa, but it's somthing Mar 24 12:42:10 i think wifi would have the first priority Mar 24 12:42:34 than can comes a faster cpu and a bigger flash ram Mar 24 12:43:28 wzkfmmly: i hope they will find a company :) Mar 24 12:44:05 the faster cpu is already for sure IIRC Mar 24 12:44:26 I agree. There is also the segate D.A.V.E mobile phone hdd. It has wifi and bluetooth, and a open source linux kernel (I think) So if som clever guys could route tha wifi from the dave to bluetooth and then over to the neo, it's a possebility Mar 24 12:44:26 yes, that's what they say Mar 24 12:45:07 buz: thats still better :) Mar 24 12:45:24 As abnother benefit you'd get 20gig more hd space =) Mar 24 12:48:51 Here's a little post about it, it hasn't released yet though =/ http://www.wirelessly.org/entry/segate-launches-dave-technology-for-mobile-phones/ Mar 24 12:49:40 i just hope we will know details about P2 when P1 starts Mar 24 12:50:27 i somehow dont see the case for dave though, not in the days of 8Gb sd cards Mar 24 12:51:28 I thought the neo only supported 2gig sd? Mar 24 12:52:38 it's been a bit unclear to me. At this point apparently 2 gigs at least, but the final word, AFAIK, on if larger ones are just a software update away, hasn't arrived Mar 24 12:53:42 mjr: thats what i understand, too Mar 24 12:54:03 supposedly, nobody is able to track down 4gb microsd Mar 24 12:54:26 Would be great to get that clarifyed, if we can use 8gig cards, I don't se storage as a problem. It's been said that there will be 32gig sd cards at the end of the year. That will clearly be enough Mar 24 12:54:39 wzkfmmly: we can only use microsd Mar 24 12:54:55 Oh, my bad Mar 24 12:55:11 but sandisk has the 4G microsd announcced Mar 24 12:56:10 2GB is now about 20EUR Mar 24 12:56:14 OOT: what's the change nick command, never used IRC before :S Mar 24 12:56:24 /nick newnick Mar 24 12:57:40 4 gig micro sd: http://prisguide.hardware.no/product.php?productId=52052 (norwegian) price under about 90$ Mar 24 12:58:17 Thanks Mar 24 13:01:11 can you actually order those from stock? Mar 24 13:01:20 i cant find any 4G ones in switzerland Mar 24 13:02:42 Thos "Kjøp" (means "Buy") buttons are links to norwegian webshops who sell them, and have them on stock Mar 24 13:04:06 So there are atleast 8 weboshops in norway who have them, sounds to strange that you don't have any in switserland? Mar 24 13:04:07 MortenLysgaard: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 24 13:05:18 yeah its weird Mar 24 13:05:29 then again i wont buy it for over 50$ anyway Mar 24 13:06:11 No, but still, you should have them in switserland? Mar 24 13:11:43 Question: 2gig cards are so much less expensive, can i hotswap cards on the neo, so i could have on with music and one with eg. programs. Then just change them when i wanted to do something different? Mar 24 13:21:42 MortenLysgaard, those are minisd, not microsd Mar 24 13:21:47 they wont fit Mar 24 13:22:06 Aww.. =S Mar 24 13:22:33 iirc you wont be able to hot-swap, as the slot is behind the battery Mar 24 13:23:38 Hmm.. =/ what to do Mar 24 13:24:09 I'd get a bigger card Mar 24 13:24:34 there'll certainly be larger cards available by the time the neo1973 hits the mass market Mar 24 13:24:35 But they don't exist Mar 24 13:25:12 True, but right now, the limit is 2gig Mar 24 13:25:16 oh really? I'm not all that up on microsd cards, or even minisd cards for that matter Mar 24 13:26:42 4gb microsd will be available in sept for sure Mar 24 13:26:45 maybe even 8gb Mar 24 13:27:12 microsd cards are pain to handle though Mar 24 13:27:26 Btw. Will the cpu be fast enough to handle video? the screen is so bright and has so high res. that it may actually be watchable? Mar 24 13:28:00 the current cpu no Mar 24 13:28:04 new one maybe Mar 24 13:28:43 there's been speculation on the subject Mar 24 13:28:53 Would be a shame to waste such a good screen! Mar 24 13:29:29 can anyone comment as to readability of the screen in bright sunlight? Mar 24 13:29:48 send me bright sunlight Mar 24 13:30:02 i thought you had been in brazil Mar 24 13:30:02 =D Mar 24 13:30:03 wont the 4db and 8gb be microsdhc? Mar 24 13:30:12 parag0n: yes they will Mar 24 13:30:25 does the miki support that? Mar 24 13:30:28 *moko Mar 24 13:30:30 ko Mar 24 13:30:33 i thought not Mar 24 13:30:41 "it's been a bit unclear to me. At this point apparently 2 gigs at least, but the final word, AFAIK, on if larger ones are just a software update away, hasn't arrived" Mar 24 13:30:43 Koen: do you have the phase0 phone? Mar 24 13:30:52 yes Mar 24 13:32:02 How cool, I'm just a 17 years old student who discovered this project som months ago, You're doing a great job! I'm soo going to buy the phase1 phone Mar 24 13:33:00 according to the wiki, mickeyl should be getting the first batch of phase 1 phones today Mar 24 13:33:31 for testing or for selling Mar 24 13:33:34 Serious? Have i missed somtihing? Mar 24 13:33:34 * SpeedEvil squees. Mar 24 13:33:58 I'd rather he used them for testing :D Mar 24 13:33:59 for testing Mar 24 13:34:14 then hase 1 *should* start in 2 weeks Mar 24 13:34:24 It depends. Mar 24 13:34:36 Is this the first of ongoing production. Mar 24 13:34:45 if they go *poof* on boot..... Mar 24 13:34:52 or is it another test batch, and another one will be along if this one is OK in several months. Mar 24 13:34:53 Hehe :P Mar 24 13:34:57 s/months/weeks/ Mar 24 13:34:58 SpeedEvil meant: or is it another test batch, and another one will be along if this one is OK in several weeks. Mar 24 13:35:25 I suspect they have a pretty quick turnaround for p1 phones Mar 24 13:35:53 at most 6weeks Mar 24 13:36:02 (lead time for lcd according to sean) Mar 24 13:36:42 yeah - but that doesn't hold it up if you have committed to make the phones. Mar 24 13:36:54 you can leave the LCDs on the sheld Mar 24 13:37:58 Anyone of you know how the market is for the neo? I'm willing to buy one whatsoever, but how is it with the rest of the world. Poeple who don't program, or have linux, Is the interest big? Mar 24 13:38:06 Well... Mar 24 13:38:08 At the moment, no. Mar 24 13:38:15 because it's almost useless. Mar 24 13:38:25 it's a basic - probably a bit buggy - touchscreen phone. Mar 24 13:38:42 multiple usb gadget on one interface: http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-usb-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg51998.html Mar 24 13:38:53 with a gps that doesnt have drivers and insane screen resolutio Mar 24 13:38:54 n Mar 24 13:38:59 The time to start thinking about how large the market is, is probably a month or two before september. Mar 24 13:39:23 At the moment, it's a very small touchscreen PC, with some prototype phone apps of marginal functionality. Mar 24 13:40:18 Ok, I'm hoping noe will be a hit. So that those big bad phone companies get a wakeupcall. They've been standing still for years. Mar 24 13:40:24 Hopefully, come Indeed. Mar 24 13:40:30 Indeed rather. Mar 24 13:41:02 The hardware hasn't - which is the shame. Mar 24 13:41:18 There are some _really_ cool phones out there. Mar 24 13:41:23 That are totally locked down. Mar 24 13:41:37 even if it isn't a success, we'll still get to 'keep' the openmoko stack to use on other devices Mar 24 13:41:43 Yeah. Mar 24 13:41:48 Yes, i would never buy one of them. Mar 24 13:42:00 FIC's motivation is at the moment they are a contractor to nokia et al. Mar 24 13:42:14 They make the phone for (comparatively) tiny profits. Mar 24 13:42:33 If they can sell direct to end users instead, then they get a much bigger slice of the pie. Mar 24 13:42:48 Even if the phone becomes a commodity, like the PC. Mar 24 13:42:58 Yes, the neo is supercheap, it costs about half of what a simular phone would cost in norway Mar 24 13:43:14 SpeedEvil: in some sense, low end phones are much more of a commodity than even pc Mar 24 13:43:22 I'm curious about v2 Mar 24 13:43:25 Though I think all the phones at the price point have wifi or camera. Mar 24 13:43:30 it will atleast have EDGE :) Mar 24 13:43:51 there were some rumours about faster radio in v1.5 too Mar 24 13:44:03 That may simply be firmware. Mar 24 13:44:07 I'm unsure. Mar 24 13:44:13 SpeedEvil: you mean the pricepoints after subsedized Mar 24 13:44:19 koen: no. Mar 24 13:44:37 buz: FIC is meeting up with TI next week about the NEPTUNE chip Mar 24 13:44:55 * buz googles neptune Mar 24 13:44:57 I mean that the exact feature set is hard to hit. Mar 24 13:45:20 because GPS tends not to get into phones without camera and wifi Mar 24 13:47:26 i still wonder why the camera was left out. seems like a comparatively simple module Mar 24 13:47:36 What's the NEPTUNE? Mar 24 13:47:42 yeah i cant find it Mar 24 13:47:52 the gsm modem used Mar 24 13:48:07 The camera pretty much needs the full case depth. Mar 24 13:48:17 or rather, the one fic wants to use :) Mar 24 13:48:25 p1 has the calypso Mar 24 13:48:26 so it's actually quite hard to add without making the phone larger. Mar 24 13:48:41 SpeedEvil: well there are 1cm thick phones with cam Mar 24 13:48:44 there are thin modules Mar 24 13:48:56 the cam could easily have gone where the hole is Mar 24 13:48:56 Ok, and the neptune's better than the calypso? Mar 24 13:49:05 i suppose it has edge Mar 24 13:49:43 There is SPI just next to the hole too... Mar 24 13:50:02 That's somthing, but I will never use gprs, nor edge. It costs 3$ a mb in norway! Mar 24 13:50:58 we know there wont be a cam in 1.5 Mar 24 13:51:06 â‚¬20/GiB/month here Mar 24 13:51:57 i can now get flat rate GPRS/UMTS for 2? a day here. Mar 24 13:52:03 and you only pay for the days where you use it Mar 24 13:52:09 buz: UK? Mar 24 13:52:15 SpeedEvil: switzerland Mar 24 13:52:19 ah Mar 24 13:52:23 but not with prepay cards Mar 24 13:52:29 only with contract Mar 24 13:52:29 yeah Mar 24 13:53:10 buz, hm, not bad for many uses, though if you use it daily, adds up Mar 24 13:53:19 mjr: yeah Mar 24 13:53:26 for 1? i'd probably use it daily ;) Mar 24 13:53:45 IIRC the moto a780 uses the neptune radio as well Mar 24 13:54:00 WTF does TI hide that chip Mar 24 13:54:04 For t-mobile - UK - unlimited GPRS is 7.50 pounds (13$us or so) /mo on t-mobile, Mar 24 13:54:32 but you need a contract, for a minimum of 22.50 with an 18 month contract. Mar 24 13:54:35 buz, incidentally, you said "1?" Mar 24 13:54:54 mjr: i said 2E above Mar 24 13:54:58 TI doesn't bother putting much on their mobile stuff on the web. Mar 24 13:55:00 for 1E i'd probably use it Mar 24 13:55:23 As all the interested players read the industry magazines, or more likley, have a TI rep calling them about it. Mar 24 13:55:27 buz, oh, I meant the ? part, charset trouble Mar 24 13:55:39 mjr: that whas supposed to be an EUR sign Mar 24 13:55:51 yes, I assumed that Mar 24 13:56:46 samsung should sell wifi chipsets, t hose would probably have gpl drivers Mar 24 13:56:55 (then again, their printers dont have them either) Mar 24 13:57:19 But those wifi chips, are they small en power efficient? Mar 24 13:58:19 some very small ones around Mar 24 13:58:20 as for power efficient, not very Mar 24 13:59:18 * mjr still pats his 10â‚¬/m flat rate gprs/edge/umts-up-to-128kbps deal Mar 24 13:59:50 i would totally get that Mar 24 14:00:38 mjr, bastard! Mar 24 14:00:41 heck even at 64kbit Mar 24 14:00:55 that much would get me about 5mb in the UK :< Mar 24 14:00:55 with constant connectivity it be more than enough for my uses Mar 24 14:01:44 I think t-mobile is the least-worse solution in the UK. Mar 24 14:02:01 22.50/mo for unlimited (1G fair use/mo) GPRS Mar 24 14:02:02 mjr: where do you live, I whis ther was deals like this in Norway too Mar 24 14:02:27 aye, orange flat rate is Â£45 :< Mar 24 14:02:46 Deeply annoyingly. Mar 24 14:02:52 That's the 18month contract. Mar 24 14:02:52 Morten, in your slightly neighbouring mobile phone country, Finland Mar 24 14:03:12 for which you get for 9.99 a MDA - which looks to be worth around at least the same amount as a neo. Mar 24 14:03:14 on ebay Mar 24 14:06:24 The best i can find is 100 nok. (ca. 13eur) for 20mb/month. after those 20mb you pay 0.7 eur/mb Mar 24 14:08:06 Bummer. It's been fluctuating here too. First, a few years ago, I had flat at 20â‚¬/month. Then they changed that to max. 100m/month (for private customers). But now again two providers are giving out reasonable flat deals. Mar 24 14:08:35 If you want free connectivity over gprs, you have to pay 60eur a month :S Mar 24 14:13:26 GPRS on o2 used to be completely free Mar 24 14:13:52 they put a stop to it as soon as they found out :< Mar 24 14:16:36 * nibbler_de pays 25e/mon for his gprs/umts flat (no 'fair' use policy, 100% flat) and another 25e/mon for voice flat Mar 24 14:27:33 Me want o2 free gprs! Mar 24 14:28:32 I want free wi-hype. Mar 24 14:28:50 This is gigabit ethernet speed wireless that works everywhere, even in caves. Mar 24 14:29:24 Yeah, that'd be the best, but I don't think I can wait for the possible hw refresh. i'm to impatient Mar 24 14:29:39 Haha Mar 24 14:30:10 Escpecially in "Secret underground lairs" ^^ Mar 24 14:30:11 <[g2]> SpeedEvil, and it's free :) Mar 24 14:30:34 <[g2]> just a little imagination required :) Mar 24 14:32:11 Think of how it would be if the phone net was like p2p, that ecery phone acted as a node and that you packets just "jumped" from phone to phone till it reaced it's target Mar 24 14:32:47 <[g2]> MortenLysgaard, it's be a poor network Mar 24 14:33:21 <[g2]> variable latencies so voice quality would suck Mar 24 14:34:02 <[g2]> it'd be great for just packet data (like sms or web browsing) Mar 24 14:34:46 Yes, i ment for data not analog signals. But thinkgs like IM Mar 24 14:36:27 The closest you could come would probably be a bluetooth network, that routed the packets. But bluetooth has way to inferior range, wifi too Mar 24 14:37:23 MortenLysgaard: that is commonly referred to as mesh networking Mar 24 14:37:39 it would be cool, but the phone batteries wouldn't like it ;) Mar 24 14:37:42 OLSR (#olsr) is one of the better protocols available now, I've played with it on openwrt Mar 24 14:39:23 basically finds neighbor nodes and works like RIP to update the routing tables to inform all the other neighbors it can get through it Mar 24 14:40:14 Cool, there actually is somthing that is like that? What net does it use, wifi, bluetooth? Mar 24 14:40:38 any interface that can run IP Mar 24 14:41:07 v4 or v6 I believe Mar 24 14:41:24 Ah, i missunderstood, so you still need somthing to run it over. Mar 24 14:42:17 rather "you _can_ run it over anything existing" Mar 24 14:42:33 it is just the routing protocol but designed and tuned for wireless networks Mar 24 14:43:27 The olsr.org OLSR daemon is an implementation of the Optimized Link State Routing protocol. OLSR is a routing protocol for mobile ad-hoc networks. The protocol is pro-active, table driven and utilizes a technique called multipoint relaying for message flooding. olsrd also implements a popular optional link quality extension. Mar 24 14:43:32 hope that didn't flood Mar 24 14:44:08 http://www.olsr.org Mar 24 14:44:25 Ok, sounds cool, but wifi on phones today is to actually make it functoning, and you've still got the problem that everybody has to have it before it works Mar 24 14:44:52 yes absolutely, but with a device like this it is possible Mar 24 14:44:58 for all users of this device anyway Mar 24 14:45:29 but unless all the WM5 users install a daemon for it, it will be limited to these devices (and other linux machines that run it) Mar 24 14:45:34 Yes, I just every mobilephone in the world was a neo, then this would be possible Mar 24 14:45:55 If* Mar 24 14:46:14 whyt does the US have really cheap gprs, but ridiculously locked down phones? Mar 24 14:46:24 its odd, when the rest of the workd has the opposite Mar 24 14:46:28 parag0n: a fantastic question Mar 24 14:46:32 because the have the right to arm bears ;) Mar 24 14:46:51 the right to have a pair of bear arms mounted on their walls? Mar 24 14:47:03 with t-mobile over here the mobile web thingy ($6 mo) is wide open right now Mar 24 14:47:13 Why does norway have ridiculously locked down phones, and superexpensive gprs Mar 24 14:47:33 I think the unlimited internet is $20 and includes the hotspot functionality Mar 24 14:47:35 because the US happened to get the "operators give you a 'free' phone that you pay for in service fees" culture Mar 24 14:48:08 and while unlreated, the right to have firearms is nice too Mar 24 14:49:47 it's not nice that it's turned us into world-wide bullies, but I digress Mar 24 14:50:11 so has the neo been released? Mar 24 14:50:15 I know it's close Mar 24 14:50:28 release to masses in sept. Mar 24 14:50:45 I'm trying to decide if I'm going to make the plunge for the dev kit or just wait until the next gen comes out Mar 24 14:51:01 I'd wait, personally, but I can't even get GSM, so... Mar 24 14:51:02 if I knew what the discount structure for early adopters was, I'd be more likely to jump right in Mar 24 14:51:03 * summatusmentis & Mar 24 14:52:02 I'm pretty happy we get 1-2-3 bars of local EDGE signal at the house Mar 24 14:52:21 and we're out in the middle of nowhere, no home phone, no power but we get EDGE Mar 24 14:52:35 what kind of latency are people seeing to the first hop over EDGE? Mar 24 14:52:58 google.com over edge is ~300ms Mar 24 14:53:02 I'm starting to wonder how far away the tower is though, I want to say last I tried I was getting something like > 1k ms Mar 24 14:53:23 upto 30000ms on a busy link Mar 24 14:53:30 I did borrow a diffferent phone from work this weekend I'll see what kind Mar 24 14:53:35 ok maybe it's just flooded then Mar 24 14:53:37 (using ping) Mar 24 14:59:33 summatusmentis: so you would recommend wait? Mar 24 15:00:02 I wish I just knew how well this would take off or not. this has the potential to make a large impact on the mobile market Mar 24 15:05:07 daniel_bergamini: yeah, I'd wait, the current version, from what I've read, really isn't usable as a phone. I(if I had GSM) would wait for the final product Mar 24 15:05:49 alright, I'll keep up on the project then Mar 24 15:06:00 maybe start developing if I get a bigger disk for this machine Mar 24 15:11:04 It is _usable_ as a phone - nothing else though. Mar 24 15:18:13 SpeedEvil: ok, fair, not as a consumer product, at all Mar 24 15:22:38 how about as a modem? Mar 24 15:23:34 and you can use it as a phone and modem at the same time? my old motorola, my wife's motorola and our old (CDMA) LG phones could work as a phone and modem at the same time, but my t-mobile MDA (HTC wizard) can't Mar 24 15:24:23 SpeedEvil: paperweight, doorstop, etc ;P Mar 24 15:24:28 s/P/)/ Mar 24 15:24:29 koen meant: SpeedEvil: paperweight, doorstop, etc ;) Mar 24 15:26:30 daniel_bergamini, a voice call will put a gprs connection on hold Mar 24 15:28:18 is that something in the physical architecture or something that just needs work driver wise? Mar 24 15:29:48 it's a limitation of the GSM chip; most GSM phones are that way Mar 24 15:30:14 well at least it will let the call through Mar 24 15:30:41