**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 04 02:59:57 2007 Apr 04 03:51:43 openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1649 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-taskmanager/ (5 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-taskmanager: use GtkIconView widget to show task list in a 3 colums style, still have some small bugs(show the items which are hidden by moko figner wheel and toolbox) Apr 04 04:19:04 counter Apr 04 04:19:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 07:40:54 (11.320 +-10.0 days) (749,148) Apr 04 05:22:58 bah, I still can't get mokomakefile to work Apr 04 05:23:56 breaks because it's somehow (silently) failing to get portmap_5-26.diff.giz Apr 04 05:37:28 pjz: I'll try to build it for x86 now and see how it goes Apr 04 05:39:32 pjz: you could download that file by hand Apr 04 06:00:22 I got past the libelf bug(#264) manually, but stuck at ltrace(#397) Apr 04 06:00:47 Because it can't find -lelf Apr 04 06:15:54 counter Apr 04 06:15:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 05:44:05 (11.239 +-10.0 days) (750,148) Apr 04 06:16:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[UI_Improvements]] Apr 04 06:32:08 hi all Apr 04 06:32:10 o improbability factor increased... Apr 04 06:37:59 good morning Apr 04 06:38:24 morning indeed Apr 04 06:44:05 CM: I rebuild openmoko from scratch on CentOS 4.4 just yesterday. And incremental builds on Debian Etch. Apr 04 06:59:58 koen: what's the recommended way to add packages to rootfs of an openmoko-devel-image? DISTRO_EXTRA_RDEPENDS or BOOTSTRAP_EXTRA_RDEPENDS? Is the bootstrap one deprecated, or is it used for a different purpose than the distro and machine and machine_essential one? Apr 04 07:00:19 it should be deprecated Apr 04 07:00:46 so {distro,machine,machine_essential}_extra_rdepends are the set to use then. Apr 04 07:01:00 yes(*) Apr 04 07:01:19 (*) unless they only belong in one type of image (e.g. super-duper-wifi-image) Apr 04 07:01:22 (only if the distro uses task-base, of course) Apr 04 07:02:01 right - this is for an end-user to add to their local generated image via a setting in their local.conf Apr 04 07:02:36 in that case DISTRO_EXTRA_RDEPENDS would be the most fool-proof way Apr 04 07:02:57 (unless openmoko resets that somewhere....) Apr 04 07:03:28 brb Apr 04 07:10:12 rwhitby: I'm guessing it's because I'm on amd64 Apr 04 07:11:09 morning Apr 04 07:11:53 rwhitby: I've managed to build the fic-gta01 machine, but not x86 Apr 04 07:12:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]] Apr 04 07:15:36 morning Apr 04 07:17:49 morning Apr 04 07:21:25 (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte Re: Access to some neo1973 hardware Apr 04 07:26:08 openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1650 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-taskmanager/src/ (8 files): openmoko-taskmanager: delete some useless codes, and whitespace change Apr 04 07:46:02 counter Apr 04 07:46:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 04:13:56 (11.176 +-10.0 days) (751,148) Apr 04 07:54:50 <_ASK> in english it is correct to say: Apr 04 07:55:13 <_ASK> The engine is composed, in general terms, of a ring-shaped sleeve, ** whose ** ends are joined to make a circular chamber, throughout which a curve piston moves. Apr 04 07:55:22 <_ASK> is it Apr 04 07:56:04 _ASK: I think so Apr 04 07:56:11 <_ASK> thanks Apr 04 07:56:19 if you aren't happy with it you could just say "with ends joined" Apr 04 07:56:59 <_ASK> well it's a pain in the ass to translate my patent to english not being a native english speaker... Apr 04 07:57:35 I'm sure... English is a very silly language sometimes Apr 04 07:57:49 plus with patents I've no doubt you have to be extremely careful about wording Apr 04 07:58:12 <_ASK> where are you from, by the way? Apr 04 07:58:19 New Zealand Apr 04 07:58:26 <_ASK> so your native =) Apr 04 07:58:37 I was born in the UK, moved here when I was 7 Apr 04 07:58:39 so yes :) Apr 04 07:59:04 where are you from? Apr 04 07:59:06 <_ASK> nice... mind if i give you a copy to get your opinion later? Apr 04 07:59:09 <_ASK> Mexico Apr 04 07:59:22 sure, no problem Apr 04 08:02:12 bluelightening: where in NZ? Apr 04 08:02:41 (I used to live in AKL) Apr 04 08:03:11 kelvinn: New Zealand Apr 04 08:03:21 ah ah Apr 04 08:03:26 * hrw needs coffee Apr 04 08:03:27 sorry Apr 04 08:04:20 hrw: yea, variables tend to look the same when you get tired, don't they? :) Apr 04 08:06:16 kelvinn: I'm in Auckland Apr 04 08:08:33 coffee?!? Apr 04 08:08:48 they killed the watersupply to this building so we don't have any coffee Apr 04 08:09:10 noooooo Apr 04 08:10:13 that's rough Apr 04 08:10:30 (and no working toilets) Apr 04 08:11:30 guess why I hate the CS building Apr 04 08:11:47 the EE building has coffee and working toilets :) Apr 04 08:12:07 koen|lab: thats coz EE people are cooler Apr 04 08:12:22 input *and* output... ;) Apr 04 08:13:54 counter Apr 04 08:13:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 03:46:05 (11.157 +-10.0 days) (752,148) Apr 04 08:22:28 openmoko: 03werner * r1651 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/env_nand_oob.patch: common/Makefile: updated patch for latest upstream changes Apr 04 08:24:23 * koen|lab looks at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ports.arm.kernel/30907 Apr 04 08:24:38 openmoko: 03werner * r1652 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: Apr 04 08:24:38 openmoko: Makefile: prepend "sh" to execution of board/neo1973/split_by_variant.sh to Apr 04 08:24:38 openmoko: prevent recurrent permission issues Apr 04 08:26:21 where 'recurrent permission problems' read 'noexec bit set' Apr 04 08:29:17 * mickey|zzZZzz chuckles and brews coffee Apr 04 08:29:26 'orning Apr 04 08:29:43 hi mickeyl Apr 04 08:37:08 <_ASK> http://www.geocities.com/mikemex_ask/otros/torres_en.pdf Apr 04 08:39:12 <_ASK> (I would appreciate opinions on the translation quality of the document from native english speakers) Apr 04 08:42:28 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1653 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/moko-digit-button.c: bug362,363,365,386, they are one bug. Apr 04 08:45:06 mornin' Apr 04 08:45:22 <_ASK> it's midnight here, but morning =) Apr 04 08:45:45 it's _always_ morning when someone logs on, and goodnight when they log off :D Apr 04 08:47:10 <_ASK> how sweet =) Apr 04 08:48:12 it's certainly easier to remember than everyone's timezone Apr 04 08:48:34 ~ugt Apr 04 08:48:45 extra, extra, read all about it, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Apr 04 08:49:01 * Stephmw grins Apr 04 08:49:30 <_ASK> aha, mipslinux. Apr 04 08:50:22 ugt also applies to normal student time here where i live Apr 04 08:50:35 we always say good morning, regardless of the time of the day ;) Apr 04 08:50:39 universal german time Apr 04 08:50:40 ;) Apr 04 08:54:13 <_ASK> except that i'm not a newcomer by any means, i've been using IRC for more than 10 years; but i must admit, english networks are very different compared to spanish networks. Apr 04 08:55:06 english networks are pretty much the same as the finnish speaking networks :/ Apr 04 08:55:33 hey mickeyl Apr 04 08:55:40 * koen|lab returns from his quest for coffee Apr 04 08:56:42 <_ASK> anyway, i would be very grateful if someone checked this document for errors in translation (original is in spanish). it's very short and probably interesting. Apr 04 08:56:48 <_ASK> http://www.geocities.com/mikemex_ask/otros/torres_en.pdf Apr 04 08:57:16 woo Apr 04 08:57:20 you're filing a patent Apr 04 08:57:24 scary :) Apr 04 08:57:42 <_ASK> i already filed it Apr 04 08:57:54 <_ASK> it's just that i need to submit it to english speaking people Apr 04 08:58:26 counter Apr 04 08:58:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 03:01:32 (11.126 +-10.0 days) (753,148) Apr 04 08:59:13 while I'm not a native speaker, I have written a lot of english material and to my eyes it looks pretty well! Apr 04 08:59:24 (just read a couple of sections though) Apr 04 09:03:23 yo mickeyl, LaF0rge Apr 04 09:03:43 * xkr47 wishes good luck with today's stuff :) Apr 04 09:03:52 hey LaF0rge Apr 04 09:04:07 LaF0rge: did you see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ports.arm.kernel/30907 ? Apr 04 09:07:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]] [[Wishlist:PersonalWiki]] [[Template:Improve]] Apr 04 09:07:30 hmm could that have any impact to our GSM connection? Apr 04 09:07:38 (over serial) Apr 04 09:09:03 counter Apr 04 09:09:04 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 02:50:55 (11.119 +-10.0 days) (754,148) Apr 04 09:11:21 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1654 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (history.c openmoko-dialer-window-history.c): bug405 Apr 04 09:21:38 openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1655 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/ (sms-contact-window.c sms-contact-window.h): Apr 04 09:21:38 openmoko: Use synchronized function to load contacts. Apr 04 09:21:38 openmoko: Get selected contacts by uid. Apr 04 09:30:09 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1656 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/moko-digit-button.c: bug395 Apr 04 09:39:29 _ASK, interesting design, have you made a prototype? Apr 04 09:39:47 <_ASK> nope, i'm looking for funding Apr 04 09:40:33 <_ASK> this makes it easier to understand: Apr 04 09:40:35 <_ASK> http://mikemex.t35.com/anim.gif Apr 04 09:41:00 it easy enough in description Apr 04 09:41:47 _ASK: Cool idea :) Apr 04 09:42:25 Will be a lot of war and tear on that spring thing though.. Apr 04 09:42:28 <_ASK> well, i'm pushing it because it can be a good part of the solution for global warming Apr 04 09:44:12 _ASK: I like this "project" better.. http://mikemex.t35.com/socionics/set22_14.jpg Apr 04 09:44:48 <_ASK> =) Apr 04 09:45:06 Heya, everyone. Apr 04 09:45:12 * CM is off 12 in a car (1000km north for vacation) Apr 04 09:45:30 Is there any reason why openmoko-kernel@lists.openmoko.org is not mentioned on mailinglists page? Apr 04 09:46:17 no, probably just overlooked Apr 04 09:46:19 LaF0rge ? Apr 04 09:47:31 I guess I can just add it :-) Apr 04 09:50:47 morning Apr 04 09:53:40 hello, rince Apr 04 09:54:24 I am quite sad that the neo is not yet for the mass market since I lost my smartphone lsat week ;) Apr 04 09:56:21 Rince: You'd not want to replace your phone with neo. Apr 04 09:56:34 (not _yet_, anyway) Apr 04 09:57:48 openmoko needs to fix its certificates :-( Apr 04 09:57:49 Connecting to svn.openmoko.org|88.198.124.203|:443... connected. Apr 04 09:57:49 ERROR: certificate common name `sita.openmoko.org' doesn't match requested host name `svn.openmoko.org'. Apr 04 09:57:49 To connect to svn.openmoko.org insecurely, use `--no-check-certificate'. Apr 04 09:57:50 Unable to establish SSL connection. Apr 04 10:05:16 pavelm: well - right now I need another mobile anyway, the questionn is just what kind of ;) Apr 04 10:05:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Development_resources]] [[Kernel]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:Yeager]] Apr 04 10:08:50 rince: Siemens sx1; that runs linux, too :-) Apr 04 10:09:43 doens't have umts ;) Apr 04 10:11:36 rince: nor does openmoko. Apr 04 10:11:41 pavelm: I know Apr 04 10:11:43 (not yet ;) Apr 04 10:12:14 I guess within 18 months or so it will.. ;) Apr 04 10:12:41 * mickeyl slightly nods Apr 04 10:13:02 rince: Get nokia 6233, then. Openmoko will connect to umts over bluetooth. Apr 04 10:13:19 rince: or get samsung i600 smartphone, and let's put linux to that. Apr 04 10:13:25 rince: It has hdspa, keyboard and is cheap. Apr 04 10:16:33 well - right now I am just looking for options (since I know I will buy a neo later), so I am just cruising around in ebay ;) Apr 04 10:22:49 the neo fully supports the nokia batteries doesn't it? Apr 04 10:23:58 only one Apr 04 10:24:01 BL-5C Apr 04 10:24:10 at least that's the only confirmed Apr 04 10:24:11 one Apr 04 10:25:44 damn, i have lots of them but i don't think i have any of that type Apr 04 10:25:50 you can probably _fit_ a BL-4C in there... it's just a little thinner Apr 04 10:26:15 i have lots of BL-C1 Apr 04 10:26:32 * Stephmw swaps his 5C for a 4C... Nokia handset doesn't die Apr 04 10:26:33 and a BL-B2 Apr 04 10:28:56 I use 3rdparty bl-5c in neo Apr 04 10:30:11 Wow, I got my own kernel bootingon neo, good. Apr 04 10:31:33 psi: I'd not dare charging nokia battery in openmoko. Apr 04 10:31:40 psi: temp sensor definitely is not compatible. Apr 04 10:31:48 ah, hehe Apr 04 10:32:06 psi: That means it will _usually_ charge fine :-) Apr 04 10:32:56 * Stephmw hears a muffle explosion Apr 04 10:32:58 oh dear Apr 04 10:46:12 Okay, bye for now. Apr 04 11:03:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] Apr 04 11:24:08 just a question.. the neo1973 already is produced and shipped to some developers, right? Apr 04 11:24:09 elfstone: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 04 11:25:16 elfstone: right Apr 04 11:25:19 elfstone: some developers got phase 0 devices Apr 04 11:25:36 cool, so its not vapoware :) Apr 04 11:26:31 will the phase1-phone be able to run qtopia apps? Apr 04 11:26:57 not out of the box Apr 04 11:29:13 I wonder if I could go down to FIC's headquarters and beg them for a neo... Apr 04 12:01:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] Apr 04 12:07:07 i'm running now openmoko on qemu as described in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEM under Debian Sid. I have to change slightly openmoko/env and openmoko/download.sh to make it run on Linux Apr 04 12:07:33 in openmoko/env s/make=gmake/make=make Apr 04 12:08:51 * WiggleCat pokes SpeedEvil Apr 04 12:09:41 in download.sh changed line 34 to files=`lynx -dump $download_dir | grep http | sed "s,[0-9 \t\.]*$download_dir\([a-zA-Z0-9_\.-]\)[ \t]*,\1,"` Apr 04 12:16:40 Any_Key yep.. that change for gmake is needed Apr 04 12:25:26 roh, and lynx dont have -listonly option Apr 04 12:25:40 onmy mashine of course Apr 04 12:39:31 Bye for now... Apr 04 12:59:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] Apr 04 13:05:45 http://mokki.dyndns.org/~mtiihone/nouveau-remember.png Apr 04 13:06:32 :D Apr 04 13:07:55 "Intel denkt dat embedded systemen met een verbruik tot 200W gretig aftrek zullen vinden" Apr 04 13:08:08 koen yes Apr 04 13:08:24 translation: "intel thinks that embedded system with a power usage of 200W will be very popular" Apr 04 13:08:34 ugh, I can't type Apr 04 13:08:41 concerning wheel in call history it may be better to reverse it behavior, scroll down - selection moves down Apr 04 13:08:56 wow, power saver. Apr 04 13:11:31 now we know what mickey|bbl meant with "awesome power" in the new neos Apr 04 13:11:39 a quadcore Xeon in your phone :) Apr 04 13:20:10 counter Apr 04 13:20:11 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 3 days 22:39:48 (10.944 +-10.0 days) (755,148) Apr 04 13:20:28 cheese counter Apr 04 13:20:50 ^_^ Apr 04 13:56:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[UI_Improvements]] Apr 04 13:58:11 "A camera is MUSTHAVE no matter what the resolution is (I prefer 2MP at least)" Apr 04 13:58:19 how to contradict yourself, lesson 1 Apr 04 14:00:07 s/TH/TNOTH/ Apr 04 15:27:02 I've heard that the GPS software on openmoko is non-free. What part is non-free? Apr 04 15:28:55 binary library that deciphers stuff coming from chip (trough UART) Apr 04 15:29:10 no doubt it will be reverse engineered (chip itself is dump) Apr 04 15:29:19 that seems crazy... Apr 04 15:29:29 it's just a library of a serial data stream? Apr 04 15:29:48 the A part on AGPS is basically what it may do Apr 04 15:29:51 because it looks like the gps deamon itself is gpsd Apr 04 15:30:32 yes, it just uses binary module to calculate chip raw data into actual positions Apr 04 15:30:47 that's truely stupid Apr 04 15:31:18 chip gets just raw doppler or something like that Apr 04 15:31:57 that's really frustrating Apr 04 15:32:05 i assume binary blob has some optimized hyper secret algorithms ten Apr 04 15:32:07 then Apr 04 15:32:12 makes it more easily replaceable though Apr 04 15:32:13 yes Apr 04 15:32:23 yes, it's a bit annoying, and may or may not have to do with US ITAR regs and stuff Apr 04 15:32:31 Stephmw: yes, just decipher stream Apr 04 15:32:40 anyway, I too expect it to be re'd Apr 04 15:33:12 and use existing libre software to calculate position from doppler data Apr 04 15:33:49 well if it's about purposeful munging data by the satelites, those are "correctable", but it takes time to do Apr 04 15:35:07 that's a different thing Apr 04 15:35:42 emacsen: this is just raw data in unknown format (if dump chip, why add crypto?, doesn't make sense ;-) Apr 04 15:36:22 yeah I find it unlikely too that the stream would be especially garbled, just in unknown format Apr 04 15:36:23 wow... that's all it is? oh, that shouldn't be hard to reverse engineer. just need someone a little smarter than me to examine the memory Apr 04 15:36:45 (even if it is garbled somehow, then you just debug the library) Apr 04 15:36:48 aloril: s/dump/dumb/ Apr 04 15:37:19 how's the phone otherwise? Apr 04 15:37:27 I mean, clear sounding, etc? Apr 04 15:37:36 (for those 10 people who have one) Apr 04 15:37:46 emacsen: actually you can capture data going from/to chip too (just normal serial) Apr 04 15:38:30 emacsen, heh, the p0 phones actually have a sidetone bug that'll reduce the aural experience quality ;) Apr 04 15:38:44 should be fixed though Apr 04 15:39:15 "We expect our users to find the quality is quite high once their eardrums are used to the peircing noise." Apr 04 15:39:23 and yeah, since it's a serial interface controlled by our completely free kernel, no problem snooping on the traffic Apr 04 15:39:47 I don't remember hearing much about the bug on the planet feed. oh well Apr 04 15:41:36 well, at least it's just in firmware Apr 04 15:41:51 though the gsm chip closed firmware, which is harder to upgrade Apr 04 15:43:21 the gsm chip firmware sucks but it's a different issue Apr 04 15:43:34 the binary driver is worse IMHO Apr 04 15:44:19 it's a bit worse and a bit better in ways Apr 04 15:44:29 how is it better? Apr 04 15:44:43 emacsen: I have phones and they sounds OK, but sound system is still in testing/tweaking Apr 04 15:44:45 very much easier to replace with free code :] Apr 04 15:46:09 XorA: btw, I have a buzzing noise from the LCD in the left earphone speaker. I such a thing known from other p0 / pre-p0 devices? Apr 04 15:47:24 pH5: I didnt get a buzzing, but I do get a bit of static from the board Apr 04 15:47:41 pH5: but I dont have very good method of plugging in headphones Apr 04 15:53:43 I can slightly change the pitch and volume by drawing different things onto the frame buffer :) Apr 04 15:54:19 LOL Apr 04 15:54:36 pH5: sounds like pretty much every PC I ever owned/used :-) Apr 04 15:54:42 pH5: well ones with onboard sound Apr 04 15:55:12 XorA, have you ever seen a Sinclair computer from the 80s? Apr 04 15:55:27 emacsen: my nick should give that clue Apr 04 15:55:54 just checking :) Remember how it used the same memory for video as I/O Apr 04 15:56:06 that was so odd... Apr 04 15:56:17 emacsen: yup, slowed RAM access while drawing the frame :-) Apr 04 15:56:49 anyway time for train Apr 04 15:56:51 wow I didn't realize that. that's sad Apr 04 15:57:17 emacsen: zx81 used the z80 to output the video, that was sick :-) Apr 04 16:03:58 gtg cu Apr 04 16:26:05 emacsen: the Spectrum had an asic for drawing the screen, which was the major innovation.. Apr 04 16:26:25 ULA Apr 04 16:33:01 hrw: i've never been clear on what the actual difference is Apr 04 16:34:03 between? Apr 04 16:44:37 counter Apr 04 16:44:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 3 days 19:15:21 (10.802 +-10.0 days) (756,148) Apr 04 16:49:38 On what posting/mail is the current counter based? Apr 04 16:50:09 i think it was sean's 'An Update' mail Apr 04 16:51:30 MacNorth - That mail AFAIK has no timeframe i nit. Apr 04 16:51:40 yep, but the counter changed the same day :) Apr 04 16:51:49 ;) Apr 04 16:52:10 So aloril has some private infos. ;o) Apr 04 16:53:16 heh, we all have our unique abilities to channel. i have a direct line with tesla, but he's pretty quiet these days Apr 04 16:53:37 :) Apr 04 16:55:09 counter? Apr 04 16:55:09 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 3 days 19:04:50 (10.795 +-10.0 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-04-14); 5 months, a week, 4 days (164.795 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (757,148) Apr 04 16:57:10 Hello All. I get this error while building openmoko-devel-image. http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/13899/ Apr 04 16:57:13 Any pointers? Apr 04 16:57:21 0x3232343 Apr 04 16:57:30 heh Apr 04 16:58:30 tuxmaniac: read line 26 thru 35 again Apr 04 16:58:51 the error message is *very clear* Apr 04 17:00:11 koen, thanks Apr 04 17:06:02 Installing cogito , git-core packages and doing a update alternatives does not solve the issue. Apr 04 17:06:30 hi Apr 04 17:07:10 apt-get remove git --purge? Apr 04 17:10:39 koen, nw this error. http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/13900/ Apr 04 17:12:00 that looks like a bug in the openmoko files Apr 04 17:14:01 koen, I will try make update , make setup and then see Apr 04 17:15:23 hm, I'd like to see a comparison photo of the neo and a modern nokia phone. does somebody have one? Apr 04 17:17:13 koen, I have see your flickr gallery. dont you have another phone? :) Apr 04 17:18:54 thomasg: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/356833001/ :) Apr 04 17:19:00 thomasg: I compared to old nokia6210 and newer SE k750i Apr 04 17:19:44 my friends can think. so they do not use nokia phones but phones Apr 04 17:19:55 koen, wheres the neo here? :) Apr 04 17:20:09 there's a little neo in all of us Apr 04 17:20:31 thomasg: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/413643600_63c1b539fc_m.jpg Apr 04 17:20:45 or better: http://flickr.com/photos/hrwandil/413643600/ Apr 04 17:20:52 hrw: thx Apr 04 17:29:54 hmm Apr 04 17:29:56 cool photo Apr 04 17:31:37 im seriously wondering how you are gonna be able to protect the screen efficiently Apr 04 17:31:55 cu Apr 04 17:32:08 I think the guys should pack in a bag that fits the neo1973 form pretty well so screen cant get scratches Apr 04 17:33:45 SrRaven: they already do. Apr 04 17:33:58 serious ? Got a picture !? Apr 04 17:34:55 http://flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412593301/in/set-72157594573486523/ Apr 04 17:35:34 oh must have missed that Apr 04 17:36:16 though I do not want to know of the hardcore geeks wearing it with a lanyard Apr 04 17:40:50 openmoko: 03thomas * r1657 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Apr 04 17:40:50 openmoko: * src/contacts-contact-pane.c: (set_type), (get_type), Apr 04 17:40:50 openmoko: (compare_types), (set_type_cb), (field_button_add_cb), Apr 04 17:40:50 openmoko: (field_button_remove_cb), (make_widget): Save VCARD specification type Apr 04 17:40:50 openmoko: parameters. Partly fixes Bug 400. Apr 04 17:41:05 Elrond: I basically increased uncertainty, that how I read Sean's mail Apr 04 17:42:05 either soon or several weeks Apr 04 17:46:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Hardware]] Apr 04 17:48:49 Hi everyone ! Apr 04 17:49:20 any hint on how much the discount on P1 revision will be, for P1 buyers ? Apr 04 17:49:56 and when is it supposed to occur ? because if it's early June and if P1 is late April, I might hang on 1 more month :) Apr 04 17:56:52 Sufflope, yes well, p1 was supposed to be January :] Apr 04 17:57:29 I think mid-late april is prolly best guess now. Apr 04 17:58:14 he was wondering about p2 discount for p1ers and when p2 will come out Apr 04 18:24:13 neither in fact :D Apr 04 18:24:30 I was wondering about P1+ (notation from wiki) Apr 04 18:24:38 I won't wait till P2 :) Apr 04 18:28:06 P1+ should be the same hardware anyway Apr 04 18:28:30 modulo bug fixes Apr 04 18:37:38 but the wiki talks about possible wifi ? that would be a killer feature Apr 04 18:49:24 how is wifi nowadays a killer feature ? Most modern mobiles come with wifi Apr 04 18:49:59 SrRaven but on most mobiles you cannot do really useful things with it Apr 04 18:50:10 for example? Apr 04 18:50:31 syncml for example Apr 04 18:51:04 which is what? Apr 04 18:51:05 on my moto they even closed bt down so i can only do syncml via gprs ... which is like the carriers want it. Apr 04 18:51:53 syncml is for syncing calender entries and contacs Apr 04 18:52:15 yeah but thats for the buisness people Apr 04 18:52:24 does openmoko support standard vcards for managing contacts? Apr 04 18:52:30 at least I know nobody who cares about such features Apr 04 18:53:29 SrRaven i really would like to have a reasonable way to sync and manage contacts on all my devices. which is not possible if they are closed down for the gain of big business Apr 04 18:53:58 re prom Apr 04 18:54:06 hey roh Apr 04 18:54:34 like im a 18 year old dude,the younger group of people that buy stuff.And I just compare what the openmoko delivers with what the Nokia N93 delivers....and I still dont see much of a use if your need the hardcore buisness man. Apr 04 18:55:48 even the n93 has more usefull stuff like a easy access mini sd cartd slot,not like the damn openmoko Apr 04 18:56:02 SrRaven moko is mainly for people who recognize that they need more flexibility in their devices than any vendor currently delivers. e.g. you will have an app-manager where you can update and install applications to your phone for free and add own ones Apr 04 18:56:13 I'd call myself hardcore, and I have no use for either a camera or video on my phone... Apr 04 18:57:07 roh, on all my nokias I have also an application manager, and can update and install applications for free Apr 04 18:57:34 thats not the reason why I want to have the neo :) Apr 04 18:57:39 thomasg: but coding for symbian is a huge PITA. Apr 04 18:57:59 well roh,the problem with that is that the Openmoko wont be mainstream enough to really become usefull Apr 04 18:58:04 prom, new versions of symbian are posix compatible Apr 04 18:58:07 it may die such as other open source plattforms Apr 04 18:58:24 SrRaven, I'm pretty sure it wont. Apr 04 18:58:33 thomasg: that doesnt fix the bugs. the current devices still have bugs from two generations ago. ;) Apr 04 18:58:38 thomasg could be. but you have no source to the apps to update them with features YOU want ;) Apr 04 18:58:38 and does it really have to be "mainstream"-compatible? Apr 04 18:58:42 SrRaven: that's a very harsh point of view considering the vastly different amount of time spent on application development between openmoko and * Apr 04 18:58:53 well no offense,but I dont want to spend a load of cash on a device that may sometime become useless because of the lack of support Apr 04 18:59:02 prom, yeah, symbian is not as bad as windows mobile, but it isn't really good, too. Apr 04 18:59:17 SrRaven from the response we get i have more fear that we will have less problems selling it than producing enough in time Apr 04 18:59:17 and does it really have to be "mainstream"-compatible, SrRaven? Apr 04 18:59:20 SrRaven: hmmm... so you've never had a win98 machine? Apr 04 18:59:28 I did Apr 04 18:59:31 I sat in a meeting this am and listened for 20min to people bitch and moan about Windows and Windows Mobile. If that's mainstream then leave me out. Apr 04 18:59:34 even nokias communicators or the blackberry devices are not mainstream... Apr 04 18:59:44 SrRaven: or OS2.. or... or... face it, our society is comoditised... everything stops being supported eventually Apr 04 18:59:55 I dont need it to be mainstream compatible,i just dont want to invest so much money for a 18 year old that may end being not very well supported Apr 04 19:00:10 SrRaven, you dont have to buy it. Apr 04 19:00:16 I know Apr 04 19:00:35 SrRaven: you'd be better off coming back in 18 months Apr 04 19:00:36 and maybe 18 years old guys who have not enough money to buy it are not the target group :) Apr 04 19:00:52 * SpeedEvil ponders a subsidised 'camgirl' version :) Apr 04 19:01:00 The big attraction for me with the Moko is the fact that it's opensource-ness is a good defence against becoming 'unsupported'-- /I'll/ be able to support it, at the very least. :) Apr 04 19:01:02 heh Apr 04 19:01:02 SpeedEvil: with a live feed? :D Apr 04 19:01:02 and imho the price for the neo is very good. Apr 04 19:01:20 well stephmw the thing is that I want to buy a new mobile around the time of september-december Apr 04 19:01:29 thomasg: actually i liked the windows mobile stuff. but i dont have more than playtime experience with it, so it might be just as buggy. Apr 04 19:01:38 SrRaven: then you really ought to go for a more mature product Apr 04 19:01:46 SrRaven: in the end you'll have to compromise on something Apr 04 19:01:51 another thing: a devices with an open os, well-documented and known hardware and no limitations is much more safe for future as any other device. Apr 04 19:02:00 thomasg yep. we should not compare to featurephones for kids and housewives. we are building a smartphone so wince/mobile and symbian are the competition Apr 04 19:02:02 It's about control. Who here likes walking into a Cingular store and being told what you want? Apr 04 19:02:02 SrRaven: IMO. Look over the wiki. Comment on any missing applications, or application features. Go away and check back in 4 months or so. Apr 04 19:02:35 roh, the focus of openmoko seems to be the phone functions, as they are in symbian Apr 04 19:02:45 Well I guess only time will tell what kinda mobile I will buy Apr 04 19:02:57 I own a win mobile device (for work), and it isnt really concepted to be a phone. Apr 04 19:03:29 the old name for windows mobile (win ce) devices was "pocket pc". and they still are (well, pc is wrong ^^) Apr 04 19:03:38 well than let me ask you guys,what do you want to do with openmoko? Apr 04 19:03:50 thomasg thats a thing about priorities. besides that we have already a lot of people wanting to write all kinds of apps for it Apr 04 19:04:00 SrRaven, I want to have an open os on an open platform, so I can do with it what I want. Apr 04 19:04:07 SrRaven: Personally - I want a commoditised phone platform. Apr 04 19:04:27 SrRaven: So that I can buy a phone, any phone, and install the same apps on it, from source. Apr 04 19:04:37 hmm k Apr 04 19:04:42 SrRaven: Some may not work on all phones, like on PCs. Apr 04 19:04:43 at moment I miss some connectivity in the neo, but there will be wifi, and hopefully there will be edge, too. Apr 04 19:04:45 SrRaven: I want to develop apps for a niche market--apps that nobody else would be interested in. Apr 04 19:04:47 To have a phone I can customise all the way down to the kernel Apr 04 19:04:50 SrRaven: what i hope to find in moko and the neo is a customizable phone platform. i want to be able to sync with linux, code apps for my personal use, adjust the interface to my personal preference... Apr 04 19:05:03 the p1 device I'll only buy for fun, for testing, etc. Apr 04 19:05:47 the connectivity and the speed of the p1+ devices will give much more opportunities Apr 04 19:05:53 thomasg you want to know what i want? a phone that just does the main app right for starters. phoning. which even is a problem it seems for most vendors. show me one phone which is not buggy and you are able to do anything against that Apr 04 19:06:11 roh: Nokia 3330. Apr 04 19:06:23 'Works for me', pretty bug-free. Apr 04 19:06:36 Of course, it doesn't do much else. Apr 04 19:06:43 yeah, the old series40 devices cannot have much bugs :) Apr 04 19:06:46 nope.. crappy ui, crappy hf (rf amp dies afaik, happend to some friends) Apr 04 19:07:15 but roh, its the same for me, I want to be able to do anything I want with my smartphone (the smart is important, because phoning is not all I want) Apr 04 19:07:22 as much as i enjoy the techsmalltalk.... i have a technical question for you guys. is anyone of you building on ubuntu edgy and has problems building glibc-intermediate? it complains about `pwd` being in LD_LIBRARY_PATH. and i didnt put it there. Apr 04 19:07:23 SpeedEvil besides that i cannot live with arbitrary limits on count of stored numbers, sms, length of strings and such Apr 04 19:07:36 I guess i really comes down to what your standarts are Apr 04 19:07:45 and I fear, that the neo will have to stay my 2nd device, because I have to use my phone very often Apr 04 19:07:46 even a bug-free phonebook isn't there yet Apr 04 19:07:50 roh: yeah. Apr 04 19:08:38 roh, do you know the Motorola Motofone F3? Apr 04 19:08:55 maybe the name is different outside of europe Apr 04 19:08:58 thomasg nope.. i have a v3i atm as main phone Apr 04 19:09:16 well, the motofone has a pimped 7-segment-display :) Apr 04 19:10:01 3 functions: phoning, sms, contacts (or better: space for saving phone numbers) Apr 04 19:10:41 most digital watches have more functions Apr 04 19:10:43 thomasg seems to be the incarnation of featurephone Apr 04 19:10:52 http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_motofone_f3-1794.php you mean, yeah? Apr 04 19:10:54 and I'm sure there will not be much bug Apr 04 19:10:57 *bugs Apr 04 19:11:09 yes, thats it Apr 04 19:11:34 btw what about the typing on the openmoko (neo1973) ? Any solutions to speed it up software wise ? I read something about dragger or something like that yesterday Apr 04 19:11:49 SrRaven, you mean Dasher I guess Apr 04 19:12:38 dasher hasn't been ported to openmoko yet, but I'm pretty sure, that it will be available until the start of p1+ Apr 04 19:13:26 yeah I meant htat Apr 04 19:13:27 *that Apr 04 19:13:33 first it looked a bit ugly for me, but after some training it's really great. I'm looking forward typing my mails with dasher on the neo Apr 04 19:13:42 because if the openmoko supports wifi so I can get my emails in school,I dont want to use a virtual keyboard Apr 04 19:14:11 SrRaven: then youre gonna have to use a bluetooth keyboard. Apr 04 19:14:36 SrRaven: or use another phone. moko or not. ;) Apr 04 19:14:46 :P Apr 04 19:15:21 my friend has a mobile with keyboard and it has a word database and if you type a word it asks you if you mean that word and auto completes it,would be a solution just dont know if that exists open source Apr 04 19:15:49 SrRaven: that would be easy to do, no matter if there is something like that out there. Apr 04 19:16:03 dasher has a similar feature Apr 04 19:16:42 yeah I saw that Apr 04 19:17:14 dasher has word databases for many langues and if you start typing a word, it sorts the following letters for the words you might mean Apr 04 19:17:31 and it works really good Apr 04 19:18:22 thomasg: do you know if it tracks your personal word usage? Apr 04 19:18:41 prom: it doesnt Apr 04 19:18:52 but if you write a text U can save the words you typed to the database Apr 04 19:19:48 if dasher gets ported to openmoko (and I'm sure it will) there could be a feature which does that automatically, but its only one click at moment. Apr 04 19:20:33 thomasg: hm. actually, this might not be a good idea after all. the key locations would become more dynamic and it might be confusing. Apr 04 19:21:10 no, its alphabetical, not dynamic Apr 04 19:21:16 hmm. the dasher in OE is the cvs version from 20040828. I wonder if that still compiles... Apr 04 19:21:30 only the size of the following keys changes Apr 04 19:21:35 pH5: it didn't last year Apr 04 19:22:00 pH5: 'regular' dasher just sits there taking 100% cpu Apr 04 19:22:03 pH5, dasher site "Site last modified Tue Mar 6 15:38:30 GMT 2007" Apr 04 19:22:44 running dasher at full speed it takes 15% cpu here. Apr 04 19:22:49 koen: I guess then it is safe to assume that it won't work out of the box now :) Apr 04 19:22:58 thedaniel: 15% of what cpu? Apr 04 19:23:07 athlon64 at 1 GHz Apr 04 19:23:25 hehe. I have to see what this does to the 200MHz s3c2410. Apr 04 19:23:55 pH5, firefox takes 30% cpu at 1,8 GHz (full speed) sometimes on my machine. Apr 04 19:24:14 and I have firefox running on 233 MHz machines. Apr 04 19:25:32 maybe dasher can be more optimized. we'll see. Apr 04 19:25:46 but it is a very interesting concept imho Apr 04 19:25:56 and its touchscreen optimized. Apr 04 19:26:12 qwerty keyboards aren't Apr 04 19:26:20 even if they are on-screen Apr 04 19:26:41 qwerty keyboards are designed to slow down typing Apr 04 19:28:08 and typing with dasher is definately faster than using an on screen keyboard or a handy keyboard with t9 Apr 04 19:28:09 * xkr47 got a 6610 since his 5210 didn't work well anymore.. I waited from january but now I had to do something :) Apr 04 19:29:18 I'm getting a new one, too (conctract), but I dont know what to take. maybe I'll get the new nokia e65, and maybe I will sell it then :) Apr 04 19:29:53 will wait for the neo and see if its good enough to be my primary phone Apr 04 19:31:39 thomasg: that's nothing. In my case all gecko based browsers lock up and go to 100% cpu... Apr 04 19:31:46 yeehaw. found my LD_LIBRARY_PATH fuckup. Apr 04 19:31:53 seems gecko does not like mulithreaded machines Apr 04 19:32:07 single core, single thread here Apr 04 19:32:26 gecko doesnst lock up, but it uses too much cpu. Apr 04 19:35:53 I wonder how long the battery of the neo will last while phoning (and having bluetooth activated, standby) Apr 04 19:55:42 You mean actually on a call with a bluetooth headset? Apr 04 20:25:16 <_ASK> I/O is *badly* written on gecko browsers Apr 04 20:25:33 <_ASK> for example, some days ago i couldn't download any file Apr 04 20:25:46 <_ASK> i closed the browser, restarted the machine Apr 04 20:25:50 <_ASK> nothing worked Apr 04 20:26:18 make update-makefile; make update aborts: error: sqlite error: SQL logic error or missing database Apr 04 20:26:19 <_ASK> it ended up being that i had many entries in downloads.rdf Apr 04 20:26:26 <_ASK> and it couldn't add annother entry to the list Apr 04 20:26:38 _ASK: mozilla stuff is badly written Apr 04 20:27:18 <_ASK> i just deleted the file and voila, problem fixed. Apr 04 20:28:18 do you know where the konqueror devs hang out? Apr 04 20:28:33 i have a few ideas for it..so i can leave opera behind :/ Apr 04 20:28:40 * LarstiQ humms Apr 04 20:29:16 guaqua: #webkit? Apr 04 20:29:19 <_ASK> have you considered freebsd for openmoko? Apr 04 20:29:36 koen: webkit? Apr 04 20:31:15 _ASK i don't know if anybody has. but since its clearly not as portable and you would need to put a lot of work which is done already for linux again like building sth like jffs2 for example .oO(or a working arm port) Apr 04 20:31:34 besides that the most devs are more gnu than bsd people as far as i know Apr 04 20:32:29 koen: i thought webkit and khtml were two separate projects Apr 04 20:32:50 <_ASK> bsd seems far better structured than linux; or at least less chaotic Apr 04 20:33:28 structured? Apr 04 20:33:34 isn't openmoko structured? Apr 04 20:33:45 counter Apr 04 20:33:45 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 3 days 15:26:14 (10.643 +-10.0 days) (758,148) Apr 04 20:33:58 _ASK: i hope you're not talking about their kernels' structure Apr 04 20:33:59 Maybe relevent: Jim Getty's smackdown of the idea of using BSD in the OLPC: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-advocacy/2005/12/08/0002.html Apr 04 20:34:10 _ASK: depends on how you look at it. also, in what way would you like BSD considered? as the OS for the device? this would be hard. the BSDs dont even have a flash-friendly filesystem. Apr 04 20:34:13 _ASK: because i think that's complete and utter chaos Apr 04 20:34:18 (nothing like jffs2 in BSD, etc.) Apr 04 20:34:20 <_ASK> the development framework; freebsd is centralized Apr 04 20:34:49 _ASK: and openmoko isn't? Apr 04 20:34:58 <_ASK> openmoko is a layer Apr 04 20:35:01 no Apr 04 20:35:07 it's an operating system Apr 04 20:35:08 maybe the bsd (which one?) your talking about is more structured, because there are much less devices and other things supported and so the codebase is smaller Apr 04 20:35:29 there is a fundamental difference between "linux" and *bsd Apr 04 20:35:38 linux is a kernel Apr 04 20:35:44 bsd is an operating system Apr 04 20:35:57 <_ASK> yeah, it would just be a matter of adding the GUI Apr 04 20:36:02 or choose one flavor, doesn't make a big difference Apr 04 20:36:08 _ASK: no Apr 04 20:36:26 thats not correct. bsd is a licence and a synomym for a group of unix operation systems Apr 04 20:36:47 <_ASK> yes, but freebsd in particular is a software product Apr 04 20:36:48 and in the other way it might be an bsd kernel (e.g. freebsd) with the bsd tools Apr 04 20:37:13 <_ASK> with standarized releases and such Apr 04 20:37:14 _ASK: most of the work being done now involves the hardware - that would have to be done in *bsd too. same applies to the gui Apr 04 20:37:29 linux is only a kernel, and GNU/Linux is the gnu userland with the linux kernel. so its relatively similar to the free unices like freebsd, openbsd, solaris... Apr 04 20:37:40 was the gpio/irq problem worked out? Apr 04 20:38:00 thomasg: relatively similar if you want meanings for words Apr 04 20:38:03 regardless how you call it, bsd is and was aas far as i can see no real option Apr 04 20:38:18 very different if you want actual meanings and philosophies Apr 04 20:38:19 thom: "..." Solaris on an embedded device... >_> Apr 04 20:38:25 guaqua, correct :) Apr 04 20:38:48 cjb, well, solaris is available as the free opensolaris kernel, maybe someone might try it :) Apr 04 20:38:59 but I guess solaris wouldnt run on arm, would it? Apr 04 20:39:16 thomasg: tsk, what's a small hurdle? :) Apr 04 20:39:17 not without work Apr 04 20:39:45 <_ASK> yes, linux and freebsd are like comparing roman law with common law Apr 04 20:39:59 <_ASK> in linux anything that gets thrown and wins acceptance becomes law Apr 04 20:40:32 well, ihmo the GPL is the "better" license for a kernel if there is a "better" licence. Apr 04 20:41:50 but thats definately the category: philosophy Apr 04 20:42:32 <_ASK> the problem is that there is a big difference between a professional judge and an amateur jury. Apr 04 20:42:50 SrRaven : I didn't talk about wifi being a killer feature compared to other phones, but compared to phase 0/1 Neos Apr 04 20:42:54 * mjr does prefer GPL's balancing effect to copyright's generic closing down effect Apr 04 20:43:02 (to BSD) Apr 04 20:43:13 Sufflope, imho wifi on an opensource phone is a killerfeature :) Apr 04 20:43:19 (sorry to talk again about this but I was away for awhile :)) Apr 04 20:44:27 I definitely prefer having Wifi on that phone with that huge screen (almost no need for a laptop :D) rather than having a cheap camera to take lame pictures Apr 04 20:44:33 I think 850/1900/2100mhz HSDPA would be the killer feature. WiFi on a phone doesn't bring much advantage. Apr 04 20:44:51 I am often in wifi-able areas :) Apr 04 20:45:48 screw the camera, give me wifi any day Apr 04 20:46:08 Also people have to make a distintion between geeks and those who actually buy products. ;) Geeks like to war-drive. That's cool. Find an open AP yadda yadda. Average user says "i want to send this funny video to some pretty girl." - and not think about wether or not there is an AP close by. Apr 04 20:46:21 <_ASK> nope because in some places, like here in Mexico, data connection is not an option for most people Apr 04 20:47:47 <_ASK> my treo is running over a prepaid SIM and we don't even get the GPRS service Apr 04 20:48:19 high-rez: wardriving? Rather the wireless networks in hotels I stay in. Apr 04 20:48:20 high-rez : won't you rather send this funny vid via wifi than via GPRS ? :) Apr 04 20:48:26 LarstiQ: so you are a konqeror dev? :) Apr 04 20:48:44 guaqua: no, what makes you think that? :) Apr 04 20:49:01 : Apr 04 20:49:02 :) Apr 04 20:49:05 okay Apr 04 20:49:30 _ASK: I bet you're in the minority of cellphone users in Mexico - in terms of how much you are willing to pay for a phone. In places where people can't easily get access to data services because of cost of availability, the chances are that the market in that area does not have substantial funds to justify users buying $350 phone. Apr 04 20:49:37 Sufflope, I'd also like to have EDGE, but we will see what the future brings Apr 04 20:49:54 LarstiQ: Point well taken. But you're on your laptop when in the hotel room anyways. ;) Apr 04 20:50:01 <_ASK> that's not the problem Apr 04 20:50:01 high-rez: bad arguments Apr 04 20:50:19 <_ASK> the problem is that most people runs on prepaid services Apr 04 20:50:19 high-rez: you are leaving geographical facts out of the equation Apr 04 20:50:19 Sufflope: Notice I said that I'd prefer 850/1900/2100mhz hsdpa over WiFi. I'm not talking GPRS. Apr 04 20:50:33 <_ASK> and they simply decided prepaid does not get data connection Apr 04 20:50:49 <_ASK> here it's not unusual for people to buy $350 phones Apr 04 20:51:08 ASK: Most GSM carriers who offer prepaid services offer prepaid data using platforms like Ericcson's Active Charge. Apr 04 20:52:04 guaqua: Explain. I don't understand. Apr 04 20:52:33 high-rez: a large country with bad cell coverage vs small country with good coverage Apr 04 20:52:57 you'd most definitely find more use of wifi in an area of bad cell coverage Apr 04 20:53:03 ASK: Ok, well that blows my argument away I guess. Actually, I guess I have seen this for myself. I've been to a lot of places where the GDP is relatively low, yet people always seem to have the latest gadgets (even moreso than the US where I am). Apr 04 20:53:33 <_ASK> put it this way Apr 04 20:53:50 <_ASK> 100 million country, 60 million phones Apr 04 20:54:00 guaqua: Not in my experience. :) Apr 04 20:54:18 <_ASK> about 50 million of those phones run on prepaid plans Apr 04 20:55:06 ASK: Just because prepaid in mexico (which seems shocking to me) doesn't offer data, that's certainly not true for the majority of large GSM markets. Apr 04 20:55:08 <_ASK> prepaid = no data. Apr 04 20:56:27 <_ASK> well, just poiting out that it varies greatly from country to country Apr 04 20:56:48 <_ASK> and that most consumers do not live in either europe or usa Apr 04 20:56:52 mostly they just charge you an insane amount for the data :P Apr 04 20:56:55 .o(no data? that means no flashy j2me apps, no wap push.... and still expensive phones!? strange conception.) Apr 04 20:56:58 well, in europe are less prepaid users and they wouldnt use data options. Apr 04 20:57:19 Psi: No argument there. That insane amount pays my bills though :) Apr 04 20:57:48 Time to talk about FSK modulation over GSM again? Apr 04 20:57:49 heh Apr 04 20:58:00 The right way isn't FSK Apr 04 20:58:10 What then? Apr 04 20:58:14 You take a vocoder, and drive it with a bitstream. Apr 04 20:58:35 So it sounds like voice, but every phoneme packs lots of bits. Apr 04 20:58:58 do you have a reference? Apr 04 20:59:08 Sigh. Apr 04 20:59:13 sounds interesting Apr 04 20:59:13 sorry... Apr 04 20:59:26 I had complete logs of #openmoko Apr 04 20:59:36 But I unfortunately lost them. Apr 04 20:59:46 grep http.*pdf should find it. Apr 04 21:03:17 SpeedEvil, and its possible to recover the complete bitstream after encoding and decoding the "voice" with a codec like AMR? Apr 04 21:03:43 The idea is that the codec in GSM is designed to code and decode voice. Apr 04 21:04:08 So, you pretty much have to feed it a voice-like signal to not get nondeterministic behaviour in the presence of errors. Apr 04 21:04:16 but iirc AMR (which is used often) is a lossy codec Apr 04 21:04:41 IIRC, they were talking about 2kbits/sec Apr 04 21:06:29 I keep confusing FSK with PSK... (PSK31/PSK63-- ham radio digital modes) Apr 04 21:06:34 the codec is in the GSM chip or the radio? Apr 04 21:06:55 DukeOfURL in the gsm part which is capsuled Apr 04 21:07:21 afaik we only get the multiplexed serial and audio from the chip. no compressed audio Apr 04 21:07:31 cjb-: same here Apr 04 21:07:59 yes, and the audio is even just analog, which complicates things a bit Apr 04 21:08:00 also makes no sense since data is much cheaper than keeping a line standing Apr 04 21:08:02 You can't do PSK or FSK effectively. Apr 04 21:08:22 The codec is _horribly_ lossy for them. Apr 04 21:08:29 roh: obviously not in some places. Apr 04 21:08:46 roh, people who're insane enough to contemplate this are usually thinking of unlimited call plans between predetermined phones Apr 04 21:08:49 which are available Apr 04 21:08:56 locale-dependently of course Apr 04 21:08:58 yup Apr 04 21:09:00 Data on some prepay plans here costs 3 pounds a megabyte. Apr 04 21:09:11 And that's the average not highest prices. Apr 04 21:09:18 mjr even then the data rate would be extremely low such as 1200baud or less Apr 04 21:09:40 roh: also, voiceband modulation sounds like a nice geeky hack-feature, so i wouldnt mind someone implementing it. ;) Apr 04 21:09:47 of course the rate would be small, yes Apr 04 21:09:47 It's more like 2K/s, with the right codec. Annoyingly, I can't find the paper. Apr 04 21:10:20 prom someone could even port freebsd if they want. thats why we do open drivers and open up datasheets where possible Apr 04 21:10:47 ;) Apr 04 21:11:24 roh: yes. but that really wouldnt be good for anything. ;) Apr 04 21:11:34 its really a pitty, that the GSM part is under NDAs :( Apr 04 21:11:42 i wanna see that solaris running on neo Apr 04 21:11:54 prom thats why we will not trow money at it i think Apr 04 21:12:01 .o(OpenVMS on the moko *yummy* Apr 04 21:12:15 theres not much known about the GSM/GPRS features, is it? Apr 04 21:12:30 thomasg what do you wanna know? Apr 04 21:12:51 roh, well, for example which speech codecs are supported Apr 04 21:13:11 doesnt gsm have only one well-established codec? Apr 04 21:13:12 and monitoring features would also be nice Apr 04 21:13:20 prom, no, it doesnt Apr 04 21:13:32 there are some codecs and it depends on the phones support Apr 04 21:13:58 e.g. full rate, half rate, enhanced full rate, amr, amr-wb, ... Apr 04 21:14:10 good question Apr 04 21:14:11 thomasg i know of no limitation there. even cheap featurephones do fr hr efr Apr 04 21:14:17 but *shrug* Apr 04 21:14:42 i know of no amr on gsm in generic, but i can be wrong there Apr 04 21:14:50 roh, well, amr is much used in germany, and amr-wb will be this or next year Apr 04 21:16:26 anyway, as for gprs, apparently class b, multislot class 10 Apr 04 21:16:29 IIRC Apr 04 21:16:31 it also would be interesting if TI is able to offer an advanced chip of the one used in the neo which will be able to do EDGE Apr 04 21:16:39 mjr, I read sth. about class 12 Apr 04 21:17:12 edge would be nice Apr 04 21:17:12 well, my info is not exactly first-hand Apr 04 21:17:14 12 would be nice Apr 04 21:17:17 the openmoko wiki: GPRS Class12/CS4 Apr 04 21:17:33 guaqua, edge would be perfect Apr 04 21:17:54 if the wiki says so, it must be true Apr 04 21:17:56 theres no need for umts/wcdma, but at least edge should be supported in phase1+/2 Apr 04 21:18:54 thomasg i'm just reading about it.. i can check out if you really wanna know. but since we target markets worldwide we will propably do all we need to get it working everywhere Apr 04 21:19:46 thomasg we use ti calypso as you can see in the wiki Apr 04 21:19:52 roh: thats the good on edge: it of course is fully GSM-compatible Apr 04 21:20:10 roh, yes, I'm reading the TI page about it at moment Apr 04 21:20:21 and TI is offering 3 EDGE-ready chipsets Apr 04 21:20:44 thomasg edge is planned, but i cannot give you dates Apr 04 21:21:25 great news! Apr 04 21:22:01 because the size matters (^^): the edge ready bga-package is 12mm2, the currently used 10mm2 Apr 04 21:22:20 thomasg and licensing costs *cough* Apr 04 21:22:30 which makes edge a good next step Apr 04 21:22:50 UMTS ? Apr 04 21:23:00 edge, wifi and maybe a multitouch will make the neo perfect :) Apr 04 21:23:14 multitouch? Apr 04 21:23:14 TimRiker we will have to wait a bit for that Apr 04 21:23:16 i camera would also be nice Apr 04 21:23:34 TimRiker, touchscreen which can recognize more than 1 touch at the same time Apr 04 21:23:45 thomasg: funky. Apr 04 21:23:45 TimRiker i mean 3g Apr 04 21:23:50 Psi_, camera would be definately optional for me, dont have a need for it Apr 04 21:24:13 im not just thinking about using it as a camera, there are other things you can use them for Apr 04 21:24:19 like reading barcodes etc. Apr 04 21:24:25 and concerning umts: nice to have, but if edge is available not really necessary Apr 04 21:25:37 Psi_, lets hope the neo will be successful, so we maybe can have some more and other openmoko devices by FIC :) Apr 04 21:25:46 yep Apr 04 21:25:50 there are umts (ie: 3GSM) Apr 04 21:26:04 i dont expect them to cram everything into the first device :) Apr 04 21:26:06 TimRiker, what are you talking about? Apr 04 21:26:10 devices/chipsets around. I have not yet looked at cost. Apr 04 21:26:14 thomasg take a look into the wiki. there will be more devices. we are just getting started Apr 04 21:26:19 sorry, broke the line up... Apr 04 21:26:24 TimRiker, ah, now it makes sense :) Apr 04 21:26:28 :) Apr 04 21:26:52 will, UMTS is expensive, costs much battery, costs space (additional chip required, or big bga package with gsm and umts in one chip) Apr 04 21:26:54 *well Apr 04 21:27:28 thomasg: ugh. Apr 04 21:27:54 prom: how did you fix your edgy-build-problem? Apr 04 21:29:38 roh: oh, that was my fault. i had an "export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/prom/Local/lib:$(LD_LIBRARY_PATH)" in my bashrc, and no LD_LIBRARY_PATH set. Apr 04 21:29:50 iek Apr 04 21:29:58 roh: and the configure script barfs about all relative and empty entries in the path. Apr 04 21:31:25 roh: eek indeed. on a real operating system, this wouldnt have happened. ;) Apr 04 21:31:46 prom did you build with oe head or at fixed position? Apr 04 21:32:09 roh: i am at the fixed revision right now. guessed this would spare me further troubles. Apr 04 21:32:25 roh: but this problem was the same for both. Apr 04 21:33:52 roh: a warning about this at some earlier stage would have been nice. Apr 04 21:34:37 i guess this could be done in the bbfile. Apr 04 21:34:45 roh, do you know if netmonitoring features will be available on the neo? Apr 04 21:35:32 e.g. for getting cell id's, levels, signal strength e.g. Apr 04 21:35:37 -e.g. Apr 04 21:36:15 thomasg: harald mentioned having this on his agenda. i dont know about the status though. Apr 04 21:36:38 I'm working for a carrier and this would be really nice Apr 04 21:37:03 You do get signal levels - I'm not sure about the others. Apr 04 21:37:16 whois thomasg Apr 04 21:37:18 thomasg: that would be nice for a lot of people. ;) Apr 04 21:37:31 if there would be (free) net monitoring features available we would buy neos for all field ops :) Apr 04 21:37:43 you get cell id's, too. Apr 04 21:37:59 nokia is offering net monitoring for the most older phones (not for series60 3rd edition afaik), but thats really expensive Apr 04 21:37:59 thomasg what country? Apr 04 21:38:03 DukeOfURL, germany Apr 04 21:38:07 k Apr 04 21:38:28 <3 germany Apr 04 21:40:31 thomasg: yes, i still have a 6310i for that.... Apr 04 21:41:14 thomasg the basic things are avail in the gsmd already. i've seen events from the phone with cellids and signal levels inside Apr 04 21:41:59 I didn't see any AT comands to get that info Apr 04 21:42:51 DukeOfURL: as far as i got told, the AT channel is only one out of severl multiplexed channels. Apr 04 21:42:54 *fsck* ... i killed my flash-partitiontable *sigh* need to get my debugboard tomorrow Apr 04 21:42:57 several even Apr 04 21:43:00 DukeOfURL: CSQ and CREG Apr 04 21:43:21 roh: btw... what was the problem with our bugboards? would be nice to fix them. Apr 04 21:43:25 prom as soon as we have the line-discipline up yes Apr 04 21:43:27 s/nice/cool/ Apr 04 21:43:28 prom meant: roh: btw... what was the problem with our bugboards? would be cool to fix them. Apr 04 21:43:41 .o(WTF!?) Apr 04 21:43:50 cool feat. Apr 04 21:44:37 prom the linux flasher garbles eeprom contents somehow and there seem to be hw-problems with some of them which lead to staying in the (default) config with ftdi-usbids Apr 04 21:44:43 Will the gsmd process initialize the GSM hardware, or will that be done during init? Apr 04 21:45:12 prom, we use series60 2nd ed. with celltrack as normal phones and 6650 with nokias net monitor for testing purposes Apr 04 21:45:20 DukeOfURL gsmd takes care of that (not that there is much to do besides power on, and throw AT-commands at it Apr 04 21:45:36 roh: nkay. so there are two problems? one with ftdi_util or whatsitcalled and one with the layout? Apr 04 21:45:50 is gsmd in userland? Apr 04 21:45:53 it is. Apr 04 21:45:55 i dunno if it's layout or even part-tolerances Apr 04 21:46:45 DukeOfURL yes. its the 'manager' of connection, state and any infos about gsm. every app which does sth. with gsm talks to it to communicate with the gsm modem Apr 04 21:47:04 roh: kay. is there a writeup about it or will i have to find things out myself? Apr 04 21:47:26 prom there is a bugtracker entry afaik.. mompls.. i'll find out Apr 04 21:47:56 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=321 Apr 04 21:48:32 is the bootloader of openmoko able to let the user choose between different operating systems? Apr 04 21:48:46 e.g. the openmoko on the device and a linux distro on the sd? Apr 04 21:49:11 prom there is a windows-tool for flashing the eeprom which should not garble the eeprom, but the issue that the ftdi somehow does not like the eeprom or resets again after reading it remains Apr 04 21:49:39 thomasg yes. you already can use it to do that Apr 04 21:49:55 great Apr 04 21:49:57 the kernel on the sd then needs support for it compiled in;) Apr 04 21:49:59 roh: the flashing shouldnt be a problem. i have a little tool somewhere that does this with an AVR hooked to a serial. Apr 04 21:50:27 thats really cool because so I will be able to use the phone "productive" and play around with the os on the SD :) Apr 04 21:51:03 thomasg all the menuentrys are just configs which are set as 'script' of uboot-commands and a label, so you even could add a boot vxworks (since uboot can do that by default) Apr 04 21:51:50 prom it would be nice to fix both problems, but propably not at the same time Apr 04 21:52:34 roh: ill investigate that tomorrow. Apr 04 21:56:46 Are there any anti-bricking ability/features intended for the 'release' device? (..which don't need the debug board or JTAG..?) Apr 04 21:58:03 cjb: there is factory reset. and there will probably be flash locks. no true de-bricking. Apr 04 21:58:13 cjb- the debug-connector will stay, and as long as you do not brick u-boot you are fine Apr 04 22:01:54 (take a guess at who experienced OpenWRT's kamikaze firmwire on his Linksys...) Apr 04 22:02:14 cjb: *cough* ;) Apr 04 22:03:17 I had to travel ~300kms by train to a friend's who had a wiggler. :/ Apr 04 22:03:19 * SrRaven just imagined scummvm on the openmoko and orasmed Apr 04 22:04:55 cjb: probably no big deal to get it working. that would indeed be cool. Apr 04 22:05:32 especially since the resolution is just perfect. and the scumm interfaces would seem pretty pen-friendly. Apr 04 22:06:32 Im also thinking about opendos Apr 04 22:06:38 but dont know how successfull that will be Apr 04 22:06:56 SrRaven its open.. you can do (nearly) everything you want Apr 04 22:07:53 if you have the skills,which I dont Apr 04 22:17:12 SrRaven: opendos contains assembly, iirc. you could run it in qemu. ;) Apr 04 22:17:20 me dumb Apr 04 22:17:23 me run windows Apr 04 22:21:49 SrRaven, maybe thats the reason why you can't understand the advantages of openmoko :) Apr 04 22:22:48 true that,Im into all the linux stuff but just didnt get to switching yet.Because of my interest in Linux I know of the openmoko. Apr 04 22:23:37 well, I have to go to bed now. gn8 Apr 04 22:23:44 n8 Apr 04 22:28:38 need these gone 2 dell xps m1710 350 for one 500 for 2, 1 apple macbook black for 600 MSN Solutions1981@hotmail.com or aim: solutions1981 Apr 04 22:29:22 someone gline him Apr 04 22:31:46 klam: throw them out of the window? Apr 04 22:31:59 solves the problem nicely Apr 04 23:48:48 balrog-kun: ping! Apr 04 23:54:55 dho: pong, hi Apr 04 23:55:43 balrog-kun: http://databits.net/~dho/openmoko/openmoko5.jpg Apr 04 23:56:04 dho: yay! Apr 04 23:56:04 I had do to a lot of icky hacks, echo has to be gecho and stat has to be gstat Apr 04 23:56:09 dho: i suspect the script malfunction on freebsd was due to "echo" working differently Apr 04 23:56:12 but that stat / python thing doesn't work anyway Apr 04 23:56:12 ah okay Apr 04 23:56:14 well Apr 04 23:56:20 Yes and no Apr 04 23:56:24 i never knew that "gecho" or "gstat" existed Apr 04 23:56:33 coreutils as a part of ports Apr 04 23:56:37 The uboot scripts don't all work Apr 04 23:56:43 the first commands are frequently truncated Apr 04 23:57:07 like setenv dontask y would be interpreted as etenv dontask y Apr 04 23:57:13 the front part is truncated you mean? Apr 04 23:57:17 yeah. Apr 04 23:57:42 So I just duplicated id. I wasn't sure if more enters in front would help, but it seemed to be largely timing related Apr 04 23:57:43 ah, yes i saw that too, once.. will need to think of some better way.. Apr 04 23:57:59 ie. sometimes it was more off than others Apr 04 23:58:26 also, if it should be bsd friendly, s,/bin/bash,`env bash`, Apr 04 23:58:29 or `which bash` Apr 04 23:58:42 yes, the script is not entirely safe, i need to make the shell also *read* the output of u-boot and react accordingly Apr 04 23:58:53 bash will be in /usr/local/bin on FreeBSD and /usr/pkg/bin in anything using pkgsrc Apr 04 23:59:13 uhm, right, i forgot Apr 04 23:59:41 There could be something like Apr 04 23:59:47 it would be perhaps easy to supply a separate script for *BSD and BSDmakefile Apr 04 23:59:54 *easier Apr 05 00:00:09 gmake's not too big a deal Apr 05 00:00:37 the python / stat thing has to go though.... it just doesn't work at all for me, and I can't really tell how it's supposed to work Apr 05 00:01:38 dho congratulations ;) Apr 05 00:01:46 You could easily do something like Apr 05 00:01:55 case `uname -s` in Apr 05 00:02:04 *BSD) Apr 05 00:02:10 ECHO=gecho Apr 05 00:02:12 MAKE=gmake Apr 05 00:02:18 Linux) Apr 05 00:02:21 ECHO=echt Apr 05 00:02:23 etcc Apr 05 00:02:23 but /bin/sh is the only standard shell i guess, so if i want to use bash, i need separate scripts Apr 05 00:02:39 It's not a PITA to require bash. Apr 05 00:03:04 Most people will have that and gmake installed anyway from building other ports Apr 05 00:03:15 i still need to give an absolute path to bash Apr 05 00:03:26 `which bash` Apr 05 00:03:57 #!/usr/bin/env bash Apr 05 00:03:57 but that wouldn't work as the #! /path/to/interpreter line, would it? Apr 05 00:04:03 That should work about everywhere Apr 05 00:04:05 oh, maybe a good idea Apr 05 00:04:41 i'm going to try it tomorrow and add a note about coreutils to the wiki Apr 05 00:04:47 Ok. Apr 05 00:04:55 Our ARM guy is using it to port Apr 05 00:05:01 (I think) Apr 05 00:05:09 Plan 9 ARM guy? Apr 05 00:05:13 (I gave him instructions on building it and getting it working) Apr 05 00:05:15 FreeBSD Apr 05 00:05:22 oh ok Apr 05 00:05:23 I'm largely the Plan 9 ARM guy Apr 05 00:05:41 (considering forsyth does inferno) Apr 05 00:06:45 err, you mean port to where? is FreeBSD approaching Neo1973 support? Apr 05 00:06:48 that would be cool Apr 05 00:07:00 Yeah, we're going to get that on it too Apr 05 00:07:35 How do you build the root disk image though? Apr 05 00:07:45 I'm not sure what that process is and what all the magic with uboot entails Apr 05 00:09:22 does FreeBSD support jffs2? Apr 05 00:09:27 No. Apr 05 00:09:44 jffs2 is a bit of a pita, (although it saves your NAND) Apr 05 00:09:52 without it all the process would be much simpler Apr 05 00:10:19 I guess it's not that big a deal if booting from SD Apr 05 00:10:53 the messages from qemu on your screenshot are identical to those that i'm getting :-) Apr 05 00:11:06 Yeah Apr 05 00:11:09 That's good Apr 05 00:11:42 But anyway, we'd just have probably a read-only UFS root image anyway Apr 05 00:11:46 have there been no problems with touchscreen? (clicking etc) Apr 05 00:11:52 No Apr 05 00:11:57 well Apr 05 00:11:59 i got reports that clicks are ignored on Ubuntu hosts Apr 05 00:12:06 They're not ignored Apr 05 00:12:16 I haven't figured out how to type on the thing yet Apr 05 00:12:46 if you had a last week's image, you could type Apr 05 00:12:52 Oh, ok. Apr 05 00:13:00 it seems the removed the input manager from the menu bar now Apr 05 00:13:06 dho take a look at yaffs, since the licensing there is somewhat more flexible Apr 05 00:13:21 I will at some point. Apr 05 00:13:44 I'm not really worried about it right now though because I'll really only be flashing a read-only filesystem fors tarters Apr 05 00:13:54 they also removed all shortcuts to terminal emulator Apr 05 00:13:55 :( Apr 05 00:13:57 balrog-kun the qemu-neo works fine here in dapper Apr 05 00:14:16 roh: great Apr 05 00:14:39 the report mentioned Ubuntu 6.10 Apr 05 00:15:10 ah, it's "Feisty" Apr 05 00:15:28 the mousecross only moves while pressing a key, but thats expected since it emulates a touchpanel Apr 05 00:15:53 and you have to press 'firmly'. short clicks are ignored Apr 05 00:16:04 right, i don't imagine it working without clicking Apr 05 00:16:28 short clicks are ignored by tslib, IMHO it's a bug Apr 05 00:16:52 propably some kind of debounce for the ts Apr 05 00:17:57 i.e tslib wants five or more measures before reporting a tap, *and* the coordinates for each measurement have to differ, Apr 05 00:18:03 so if there's no noise, it won't work Apr 05 00:18:23 i had to emulate a slight noise (which can be seen in drawing programs) Apr 05 00:18:25 that would be reasonable to some kind Apr 05 00:19:05 I'm just worried about how I'm supposed to get teh root image and kernel and such on the device Apr 05 00:19:08 but anyway I'm out... bbl Apr 05 00:19:17 balrog-kun: if you want to talk over email, devon.odell@gmail.com Apr 05 00:19:29 dho: ok, thanks Apr 05 00:19:48 i guess even FreeBSD will be stuck with u-boot for now Apr 05 00:53:09 counter Apr 05 00:53:09 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 3 days 11:06:49 (10.463 +-10.0 days) (759,149) Apr 05 00:54:33 * CoreDump|home looks at dho Apr 05 00:54:51 What's the "h" standing for? (Now that we know what d and o mean ;) ) Apr 05 01:29:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/kr]] [[Template:Languages]] Apr 05 02:13:38 OE update today? Apr 05 02:14:08 or maybe it's a mokomakefile update Apr 05 02:21:08 man, portmap is still killing my build Apr 05 02:26:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[User:Php5]] [[Main_Page/kr]] Apr 05 02:26:51 ? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 05 02:59:56 2007