**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 10 02:59:57 2007 Apr 10 03:00:07 kmeyer: This wouldn't be so hard if this wasn't our first year. Apr 10 03:00:19 especially what with openmoko not being near complete Apr 10 03:00:29 dho: our? Apr 10 03:00:33 Plan 9's Apr 10 03:00:38 ah Apr 10 03:00:42 really? Apr 10 03:00:44 * dho doesn't see openmoko not being complete as a problem Apr 10 03:01:10 OpenMoko is an entirely different OS with different compilers and everything. Apr 10 03:01:52 More that the Neo1973 may or may not be available before August Apr 10 03:02:26 And I don't want to contribute to a dud project for our first year Apr 10 03:03:33 I thought Plan 9 was old. Apr 10 03:04:04 In the sense that it has been actively developed for a long time, yes. Apr 10 03:04:20 Plan 9 invented Unicode, among other things. Apr 10 03:04:50 There are plenty of new and interesting ideas in it that make it a good OS for porting to embedded devices (especially to embedded devices) Apr 10 03:04:57 There's just not a very big community Apr 10 03:05:57 what's good about it, again? Apr 10 03:06:04 why is there a community at all, in other words Apr 10 03:07:02 Everything is a file, and really everything is. Non-ridiculous authentication (PAM is stupid). A kernel small enough to actually understand. You can export anything over the network since it's all files (including devices) Apr 10 03:07:15 `sockets' are files, even. Apr 10 03:07:31 It _is_ actively maintained, contrary to popular belief Apr 10 03:07:32 ah. Apr 10 03:07:39 Private namespaces Apr 10 03:07:39 is is actively usable? Apr 10 03:07:49 I run it on my laptop Apr 10 03:08:01 what sort of laptop? Apr 10 03:08:03 I'm vnc'ed into my OS X machine right now surfing the web and chatting on IRC. Apr 10 03:08:10 Compaq Presario V4000 Apr 10 03:08:18 what sort of parts does that have? :P Apr 10 03:08:26 Centrino, no wireless support, but everything else works. Apr 10 03:09:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Input_Method]] Apr 10 03:09:34 Hm, not true, ACPI doesn't. But that's really it. Apr 10 03:09:48 hmm Apr 10 03:10:00 AC'97 driver works, but it isn't in the distribution yet. Apr 10 03:10:05 can glibc programs run on it? Apr 10 03:10:08 No Apr 10 03:11:42 so that eliminates most GPL programs then eh? Apr 10 03:12:06 Most things you use don't run on Plan 9. Apr 10 03:12:34 We have a (thin) compatibility layer for POSIX apps that allow us to compile things Apr 10 03:12:40 but those are mostly FreeBSD things Apr 10 03:13:15 I don't particularly care about Linux or GNU* anyway, but gcc doesn't even work, so that eliminates even more. Apr 10 03:13:28 We have our own compilers. Apr 10 03:13:30 what compiler do you use then? Apr 10 03:13:31 ah Apr 10 03:13:35 main language is C? Apr 10 03:13:38 Yes Apr 10 03:14:02 We don't have (nor do we want) C++ compilers Apr 10 03:14:40 * mwester-laptop goes to google to go see if there actually exist any apps that run on plan 9... Apr 10 03:14:56 that's a cheap shot. Apr 10 03:15:00 :-) Apr 10 03:15:12 that's like saying "are there any games that run on linux" :P Apr 10 03:15:23 Anyway, if you don't run Plan 9, you wouldn't know them anyway. Apr 10 03:15:32 They don't run on Linux or BSD or anything else. Apr 10 03:17:00 NOTE: Task failed: /home/moko/build/tmp/work/i486-linux/openmoko-panel-battery-0.0.1+svnnow-r0_1587/temp/log.do_compile.31291 Apr 10 03:17:01 NOTE: package openmoko-panel-battery-0.0.1+svnnow-r0_1587: task do_compile: failed Apr 10 03:17:02 Anyway, I'm not really here to evangelize Plan 9 or bash anything else, really just to find out if porting it to the Neo1973 is something I should get my student to work on this summer, or if I should choose another student with a project I know can get done. Apr 10 03:17:43 That was actually a very serious comment -- I don't know anything at all about plan 9. I know a bit more now, though. Apr 10 03:19:30 is a Live CD worth trying? Apr 10 03:20:07 The install cd is a livecd Apr 10 03:20:20 I can probably guarantee that you won't be impressed as a casual user Apr 10 03:22:44 The browser is crap compared to what you're used to, you'll spend hours trying to figure out how to use upas/fs and Mail (let alone acme and rio), and you'd probably spend most of your interactive time in a vnc window. Like me :) Apr 10 03:23:13 Unless you're interested in OS development and research or networking and filesystems (or any other ``things that Unix fucked up'' niche that Plan 9 covers) Apr 10 03:23:19 You're probably not going to like Plan 9 at all Apr 10 03:23:35 does it spell "create" correctly? Apr 10 03:23:47 We don't have a create syscall :) Apr 10 03:24:05 But yes, the libc function is spelled `create' Apr 10 03:24:27 there's also O_CREAT(E?) Apr 10 03:24:30 Or, I guess it is a syscall. Apr 10 03:25:16 OREAD OWRITE ORDWR OEXEC OTRUNC OCEXEC and ORCLOSE Apr 10 03:25:51 I wonder if we use int0x80. Apr 10 03:36:04 so Apr 10 03:36:49 is there somewhere else I can ask stupid questions about this plan 9 thing so I don't disrupt things here? Apr 10 03:37:15 #plan9 ? Apr 10 03:40:58 anyone built MokoMakefile's qemu target? Apr 10 03:41:29 I've got it running, but space isn't working as the power button Apr 10 03:42:35 I have errors building. Apr 10 03:43:01 building the qemu target? Apr 10 03:43:43 --20:13:43-- http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/openmoko-panel-battery_svn.openmoko.org_.trunk.src.target.OM-2007.panel-plugins_1587_.tar.gz Apr 10 03:43:44 HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found Apr 10 03:43:56 * dho only knows stuff about getting the qemu target running in FreeBSD Apr 10 03:44:18 this is for rootfs Apr 10 03:44:19 kmeyer: you've done a 'make update && setup Apr 10 03:44:28 pjz: just make setup Apr 10 03:45:56 rwhitby: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=321 seems to imply hardware Apr 10 03:46:15 goodnight. Apr 10 03:49:53 updating counter based on mickeys blog entry Apr 10 03:50:51 aloril: Do you have a URL for that? Apr 10 03:51:24 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/04/10/openmoko-coreteam-in-frankfurtmain/ Apr 10 03:51:31 Thanks. Apr 10 03:51:34 no definite dates, but it sounds like this: Apr 10 03:51:35 counter Apr 10 03:51:35 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 4 days 08:08:24 (11.339 +-10.0 days) (801,155) Apr 10 03:52:02 umm.. week-3 weeks I guess? Apr 10 03:53:07 maybe a bit less uncertainty: Apr 10 03:53:08 counter Apr 10 03:53:08 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks 08:06:50 (14.338 +-7.0 days) (802,155) Apr 10 03:53:42 Heh Apr 10 03:53:44 kmeyer: you should do an update to make sure you've got the lastest source and etc; that version that's failing to download might be out of date so no longer present Apr 10 03:54:01 It's too bad that the release of the hardware depends so heavily on openmoko being stable :) Apr 10 03:54:03 I ran a clean MokoMakefile make openmoko-devel-image and make qemu today and it worked fine Apr 10 03:54:05 pjz: I just ran make setup yesterday Apr 10 03:54:09 (and it finished today) Apr 10 03:54:23 except for the stuff it couldn't grab from the debian servers and I grabbed manually Apr 10 03:54:25 dho: actually that blog entry sounded like P0 devs might get hardware a bit early Apr 10 03:54:52 aloril: I'm not a P0 dev, unfortunately Apr 10 03:54:54 blarsen: hmm, weird Apr 10 03:55:13 or it means using existing P0 device to test it Apr 10 03:55:22 That's what I understood. Apr 10 03:55:32 Either way, I guess I just have to wait for hardware to be released. Apr 10 03:55:50 it was a Makefile from yesterday, but I did do another "make setup" today before it completed Apr 10 03:56:00 rather "make update" Apr 10 03:56:07 GTK+ is limited, surprise, surprise :P Apr 10 03:56:36 blarsen: so I should do a make update/ make setup? Apr 10 03:57:29 kmeyer: I would think that would help Apr 10 03:58:38 pjz: space as power works for me Apr 10 03:58:39 blah, they're not avoiding NIH enough Apr 10 03:58:47 blarsen: yeah, I got it working, sorry Apr 10 03:59:31 blarsen: make update, make setup, then make whatever-the-long-one-is? Apr 10 04:04:36 wow, these apps are... unspectacular Apr 10 04:06:56 anyone know how to make a new contact get saved? Apr 10 04:09:56 mickey is talking only about software and himself, so no official numbers, but I guess those are better than pure guess ;-) Apr 10 04:10:24 aloril: yeah; we're getting a fair distance from 'end of january' now, though Apr 10 04:11:47 :-) Apr 10 04:11:53 maybe the september figure needs to change as well Apr 10 04:18:13 openmoko: 03werner * r1719 10/developers/werner/openocd-multiple-usb-ids.patch: src/jtag/ft2232.c: support multiple USB ID pairs (ft2232_vid_pid) Apr 10 04:19:32 openmoko: 03werner * r1720 10/developers/werner/notes/openocd: latest versions of OpenOCD and libftdi, and support for a list of USB ID pairs Apr 10 04:21:17 Re: the homemade USB rechargers mentioned a while back-- it's been my experience (with http://tinyurl.com/2nnonl) that LiIon and LiPoly batteries will happily recharge off 4x NiMH batteries directly-- so none of the extra voltage regulating hardware that makeblog&etc. add to it is necessary. Apr 10 04:23:30 (of course, it depends on the user not frying the internal with Akalines..) Apr 10 04:54:17 so I've got a small patch I want to test... how do I use mokomakefile to rebuild it into an image for me? Apr 10 04:55:11 what's it a patch to? Apr 10 04:55:32 uh... contact-pane Apr 10 04:55:44 pjz: do you know how to use quilt? Apr 10 04:55:51 er, openmoko-contacts/contacts-contact-pane Apr 10 04:55:58 rwhitby: not really, no Apr 10 04:56:32 rwhitby: I've a vague idea that you're sayig I need to do a diff and put it in a dir someplace so quilt will pick it up Apr 10 04:56:43 you can use quilt to handle the patches Apr 10 04:56:51 cd /home/moko/openmoko Apr 10 04:57:03 quilt new .patch Apr 10 04:57:18 quilt add trunk/src/... Apr 10 04:57:37 (do that for any files you change which you want to be part of the patch) Apr 10 04:57:48 (note that you need to add then *before* you change them) Apr 10 04:57:59 ... make the changes ... Apr 10 04:58:02 quilt refresh Apr 10 04:58:19 (this will create a new patch file in /home/moko/patches/openmoko-HEAD/.... Apr 10 04:58:24 (and update the series file there) Apr 10 04:58:51 then mokomakefile will treat your patch in exactly the same way it treats any other patches that I do Apr 10 04:59:05 morning Apr 10 04:59:10 morning Rince Apr 10 05:01:22 rwhitby: I see. and once I've done that 'make qemu' will build it into the flash image and run it? Apr 10 05:01:42 you will want to run "make build-qemu flash-qemu-local run-qemu" Apr 10 05:01:57 otherwise it will download and flash the official images Apr 10 05:02:22 pjz: can you please write all this up on the MokoMakefile wiki page? Apr 10 05:03:17 bbiab (lunch) Apr 10 05:05:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] Apr 10 05:09:03 counter Apr 10 05:09:04 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks 06:50:55 (14.285 +-7.0 days) (803,155) Apr 10 05:09:08 'lo all. Apr 10 05:09:16 rwhitby: added Apr 10 05:12:48 2/w 2 Apr 10 06:11:22 counter Apr 10 06:11:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks 05:48:36 (14.242 +-7.0 days) (804,155) Apr 10 06:12:06 i remember hearing about the counter saying before only 24 hours for P1 Apr 10 06:12:16 now it says P1, 2weeeks + Apr 10 06:12:20 is that is true ? Apr 10 06:14:32 It's one to three weeks, and it sounds like a very good guess. There's a blog entry that lead to this at planet.openmoko.org. Apr 10 06:17:58 sumasuma: Yes, it was updated a while ago based on that blog post and some mails on the lists Apr 10 06:18:05 sumasuma: the counter is simply an automatic reply of what the latest rumours are. it has no official backing. Apr 10 06:21:16 i c Apr 10 06:21:39 CM: rwhitby: thanks for the clarification Apr 10 06:26:11 Is there a way to get a verbose building progress with MokoMakefile? I've been look at "glibc-2.5-r4: task do_install: started" for over 4 hours now.. Apr 10 06:33:52 cbaird: you can run bitbake manually, with the -D debug switches Apr 10 06:35:53 sumasuma: I don't think it ever said 24 hours, maybe week + 24 hours at some point ;-) Apr 10 06:37:34 rwhitby: good point Apr 10 06:37:36 counter Apr 10 06:37:36 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks 05:22:22 (14.224 +-7.0 days) (805,155) Apr 10 06:38:33 rwhitby: okay-- nothing seems to have Gone Horribly Wrong. Apr 10 06:52:38 re Apr 10 06:58:54 good morning Apr 10 06:59:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[Talk:Neo1973_Hardware]] Apr 10 06:59:58 Hopscotch: morning Apr 10 07:48:25 aloril - On what is the 14 +- 7 based? mickey's post? Apr 10 07:58:55 counter Apr 10 07:58:55 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks 04:01:04 (14.167 +-7.0 days) (806,155) Apr 10 07:59:13 I don't read mickeys post as 14+-7 Apr 10 07:59:37 I read it as 21-0+14 or so at best. Apr 10 08:00:47 Right. Apr 10 08:01:09 Anyway, got a "meeting" ;o) Apr 10 08:01:23 If the feature freeze is in a week - then presumably that means that the V6 PCBs aren't even designed yet. Apr 10 08:02:06 Which means a couple of weeks till hardware at best, if they are then asking P0 people for help, that means another weeks shipping, and another weeks eval at least. Apr 10 08:04:18 SpeedEvil: yeah, he didn't talk about hardware directly though, but maybe hardware is too >= 3 weeks (implied in post) Apr 10 08:04:41 Well - I suppose that's true. Apr 10 08:05:23 I'm combining that with the fact that there has been a week for the 'oops - we mis-set something in u-boot for V5, and it's just fine now' announcement. Apr 10 08:05:37 which hasn't arrived. Apr 10 08:06:33 earliest day for new pcb week? or maybe 2 weeks? Apr 10 08:07:06 hmm.. Apr 10 08:07:43 If mickey was talking of hardware, then the PCB can't happen before the feature freeze :) Apr 10 08:08:13 And you want to make at least some to test with, which takes a week, then testing, which takes another weekish, before you can go volume. Apr 10 08:08:22 _at_bare_minimum_. Apr 10 08:08:31 counter Apr 10 08:08:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 3 weeks 03:51:27 (21.161 +-14.0 days) (807,155) Apr 10 08:08:51 It's possible that mickey may not have been talking of hardware. Apr 10 08:09:12 The counter's getting a bit irrelevant, it should really just say 'now +/- 2 months' and be done with it Apr 10 08:16:14 heyho Apr 10 08:16:51 SpeedEvil - V5? Apr 10 08:17:34 * XorA reads the term blogosphere one too many times and goes into an insane destructive rage Apr 10 08:17:53 hm, why that? Apr 10 08:19:44 *toying around with mokomake and qemu* Apr 10 08:20:58 XorA: that's "blogosphere[tm]"... Apr 10 08:21:13 * XorA shudders Apr 10 08:21:19 stupid code of honour crap Apr 10 08:21:29 we never had that for USENET and we all survived Apr 10 08:22:03 "code of honour"? Apr 10 08:22:04 well, there were netiquettes Apr 10 08:22:13 s/were/are/g Apr 10 08:22:14 Nebukadneza meant: well, there are netiquettes Apr 10 08:22:36 hey, now *thats* cool, a bot doing regex Apr 10 08:22:40 Nebukadneza: yeah but breaching those normally ended in flames, death threats and name calling :-) Apr 10 08:23:00 *g Apr 10 08:23:25 normally almost everything ends in flames and death threats Apr 10 08:23:37 Nebukadneza: nah everything ends in Nazis Apr 10 08:23:44 ~godwin Apr 10 08:23:58 Adolph Hitler has been mentioned, the plonkings may commence now. To plonk, /ignore foo all Apr 10 08:24:14 http://rafb.net/p/eVI4Hk97.html ... /me giggles Apr 10 08:25:01 Elrond: Just another day on the Kathy Seirra drama. (Pity no-one's taking taking her to task for her bogus accusations-- people are too frightened of being kicked out of the O'Reilly A-lister club :P) Apr 10 08:25:59 cbaird - Sound's like I don't really want to know details. Apr 10 08:26:36 Elrond: V5 is the current PCB - which has unspecified problems. I was reading the latest blog as if it was refering to hardware, which would mean that V6 was needed. Apr 10 08:29:05 This could of course be wrong - if it's referring to software, and V5 hardware works, then the V5 hardware could be being built ATM, and be shipping in a couple of weeks, after the P0 people have done software testing. Apr 10 08:31:35 well.. +-2 weeks now (1-5 weeks) Apr 10 08:31:37 counter Apr 10 08:31:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 3 weeks 03:28:22 (21.145 +-14.0 days) (808,155) Apr 10 08:37:07 jgm: now +- 2 months doesn't make that much sense ;-) Apr 10 08:37:28 It does have the advantage of not requiring you to update the counter for a while after release, though :) Apr 10 08:37:35 hehe Apr 10 08:38:08 hm guys, small question about the qemu thingy Apr 10 08:39:12 SpeedEvil: I guess it is hardware that is at least 3 weeks, I doubt they would delay it for software only Apr 10 08:39:47 i fetched me the mokomake, made setup and qemu and then tried to download-images and flash-qemu-official (it was complaining about a missing badblocks table and left me in a empty console, i exitted via ctrl+c) and then run-qemu-snapshot which fires up uBoot, but after selecting to boot it told me "booting from ...\nBad magic number" Apr 10 08:41:45 SpeedEvil - P0 people have Bv03. u-boot supports Bv04. And Bv04 is the one with unspecified instabilities, which might be sw or hw. At least I read Sean's mail that way. Apr 10 08:54:48 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage.]] [[User:Fries43]] [[User:Vladok]] Apr 10 08:55:20 mornin' Apr 10 08:57:07 hm Apr 10 08:57:14 openmoko qemu is *fun* ;P Apr 10 09:02:44 *sigh* the P1 delay is bittersweet Apr 10 09:02:53 both encouraging and discouraging Apr 10 09:03:36 tuuks suoraa töist? Apr 10 09:03:36 encouraging as the last thing you want is a phone that cant suspend Apr 10 09:03:37 Cyphi^: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 10 09:03:51 oh sorry :P Apr 10 09:04:46 aloril: on the contrary, I think they would delay P1 for software. There is a baseline software functionality that even a "developer's only" phone needs to have to be called a phone. Apr 10 09:05:08 Nebukadneza: what was the problem with the qemu flow? Apr 10 09:05:14 rwhitby: already solved Apr 10 09:05:20 it was me beeing dumb ;P Apr 10 09:05:32 ok, I can't fix that in MokoMakefile then ;-) Apr 10 09:05:40 nah, thats kinda hard Apr 10 09:06:04 other than that, your impression of MokoMakefile? Apr 10 09:06:13 well, i'd need a neo ;P Apr 10 09:06:19 but its really nice Apr 10 09:06:24 rwhitby: ask "Ary you dumb yes/no" if yes then ; do exit; done Apr 10 09:06:53 XorA: what about if the answer is exactly the character sequence 'yes/no' ? Apr 10 09:07:04 but nevertheless i have the feeling that i have to read into the whole build process Apr 10 09:07:25 rwhitby: rm -rf / Apr 10 09:07:39 Nebukadneza: yeah, perhaps MokoMakefile should print out a reading list for you to read while waiting for the build ... Apr 10 09:07:50 nah, not really ;P Apr 10 09:08:59 but i really hope it will be significantly faster in hardware than on qemu ;P Apr 10 09:13:18 hi Apr 10 09:15:49 Speaking of mokomakefile; I get an error everytime I'm making openmoko-devel-image. Stops while compiling perl (SysV.c) "SysV.xs:7:25: error: asm/page.h: No such file or directory" I Apr 10 09:16:16 I've got to add the include into the makefile every time by hand. Apr 10 09:30:44 rwhitby: yes, but isn't that already done? at least phone calling should work now? Apr 10 09:31:04 Nebukadneza: I have heard that it might be slower in hardware (not sure though) Apr 10 09:31:51 urghs Apr 10 09:31:57 cant imagine that Apr 10 09:32:01 but then it would be unusable Apr 10 09:32:09 30 and more seconds to start up the dialer Apr 10 09:32:26 10 and more seconds to type a character via the on screen keyboard Apr 10 09:32:30 ah Apr 10 09:32:43 doubt its that bad in hardware Apr 10 09:33:10 Rakshasa: what host os platform? 64-bit by chance? Apr 10 09:52:24 Elrond: yeah - s/5/4/ I misremembered. Apr 10 09:59:34 rwhitby: 64 bit amd, yes Apr 10 10:24:50 Rakshasa: OE has problems on 64-bit. Check the openembedded bugzilla for work-arounds or fixes. Apr 10 10:27:57 s/has/had/ - we're using a frozen OE version - the 64 bit problems are almost certainly fixed in the latest version. Apr 10 10:28:10 (latest OE version, which OpenMoko has not moved to yet) Apr 10 10:29:31 SpeedEvil: ping Apr 10 11:08:48 rwhitby: Okay, will do. Thanks. Apr 10 11:19:52 counter Apr 10 11:19:52 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 3 weeks 00:40:06 (21.028 +-14.0 days) (809,155) Apr 10 11:46:58 Hello, is/will there be any point at which translations of openmoko will be coordinated? Apr 10 11:48:33 mmp: try this link http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation Apr 10 11:49:25 * mmp feels like "just make a wish and look into wiki" :) Apr 10 11:58:13 mmp: A few people indicated interest in setting up a Pootle server to help coordinate the translation process. Apr 10 11:58:29 But nothing official on that front yet. Apr 10 12:16:43 friedel: (sorry delay) thanks; I just thought that one central point could help a lot:) Apr 10 12:17:21 counter Apr 10 12:17:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 23:42:37 (20.988 +-14.0 days) (810,155) Apr 10 12:17:33 delayed again? Apr 10 12:17:47 omg, 3 weeks? Apr 10 12:19:16 not really new delay, just a bit more info about current delay Apr 10 12:19:37 and its unofficial guess Apr 10 12:20:02 ie.. its probably hardware problem, not software Apr 10 12:20:14 that delay was only the software delay Apr 10 12:20:17 wasn't it? Apr 10 12:20:27 that's how I understood it Apr 10 12:21:05 it talks about software only, but bug entry talk about hardware changes being needed Apr 10 12:24:30 so, is it possible, P1 will merge P1+? Apr 10 12:24:44 * aloril doubts it Apr 10 12:25:27 bug entry? Apr 10 12:43:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] Apr 10 13:18:22 Vegar: see [[Neo1973]] Apr 10 13:36:57 hi all Apr 10 13:39:38 counter Apr 10 13:39:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 22:20:20 (20.931 +-14.0 days) (811,155) Apr 10 13:56:59 aloril: thanks Apr 10 14:03:29 ola Apr 10 14:34:57 Vegar: or see planet.openmoko.com Apr 10 14:35:02 or maybe .org Apr 10 14:38:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] [[Talk:FAQ]] [[User:Kresp0]] Apr 10 14:43:05 morning :) Apr 10 15:08:27 BTW: Is any pricing info available for P1.5? Apr 10 15:12:30 mickey|handcraft: ping Apr 10 15:20:45 SpeedEvil: ping Apr 10 15:21:10 ? Apr 10 15:21:31 What is your read on the accelerometer discussion? Apr 10 15:21:41 your opinion Apr 10 15:21:43 What discussion? Apr 10 15:22:04 My take on 'should there be one in there'? Apr 10 15:22:06 If so. Apr 10 15:22:13 several weeks ago, people were talking about having an accelerometer to determine movement Apr 10 15:22:24 Some things people propose are not actually possible. Apr 10 15:22:41 movement would cause the GPS sample time to increase Apr 10 15:22:42 Because the accellerometers that could actually be put in are quite noisy. Apr 10 15:22:55 audio noise? Apr 10 15:22:57 No. Apr 10 15:23:02 RF? Apr 10 15:23:09 accelleration noise. Apr 10 15:23:21 To boil it down. Apr 10 15:23:51 If you know your orientation exactly, then you can be uncertain as to the position by up to 80m or so after 1 minute. Apr 10 15:23:52 I don't understand acceleration noise... Apr 10 15:24:04 Becuase the accellerometers are noisy. Apr 10 15:24:30 The output accelleration is not quite the real accelleration. Apr 10 15:24:39 DukeOfURL: he means, the accelerometer can't be used to keep track of your position for extended periods of time Apr 10 15:24:56 since it's measurement isn't 100% accurate (it has "noise") Apr 10 15:25:10 There is an additional problem. Apr 10 15:25:24 does the neo have a compass? Apr 10 15:25:26 Gravity is _large_ compared to typical accelleration forces. Apr 10 15:25:28 No. Apr 10 15:25:28 I'm thinking of using an accelerometer to increase the GPS sample time (decrease the interval) rather than using it to determine position Apr 10 15:26:05 The accellerometer in that case can't tell you when the phone is actually moving in the GPS sense - as it will be confused by the phone being moved around in the hand. Apr 10 15:26:07 Just some indication the Neo is moving, even downwardws Apr 10 15:26:12 it can tell you when it's probably stationary. Apr 10 15:26:22 yeah Apr 10 15:26:43 that would be a good thing--as long as it's stationary then there's no need to sample GPS Apr 10 15:27:22 It almost certainly won't measure stationary if it's in a pocket though. Apr 10 15:27:48 it could warn if it will broke when hitting the ground... :X Apr 10 15:27:51 well DukeOfURL Apr 10 15:27:54 keep in mind Apr 10 15:28:04 the accelerometer measures acceleration, not velocity Apr 10 15:28:13 it could still be "stationary" and moving at constant speed Apr 10 15:28:20 correct Apr 10 15:28:34 so there's no way to determine whether the phone is actually moving without using gps Apr 10 15:28:36 It is quite possible to - for example - fly a plane into the ground, while still having a stationary accellerometer reading. Apr 10 15:29:02 heh, until the last moment ;) Apr 10 15:29:17 you roll the plane left or right slightly, while pulling back on the stick very slightly. Apr 10 15:29:55 this ends up in a skewed loop to the left or right, ending at you smacking into the ground, inverted pulling -1G Apr 10 15:30:01 -1G absolute. Apr 10 15:30:08 all the drinks stay on the tables. Apr 10 15:30:10 The inertial nav systems have been around since the 70s, and they are pretty accurate. Apr 10 15:30:14 Yeah. Apr 10 15:30:30 Semiconductor nav systems - the sort that might be in a phone suck. Apr 10 15:30:51 gps has only probs inhouse Apr 10 15:30:52 So what is the answer to sampling GPS without draining the battery? Apr 10 15:30:57 You're looking at dozens of metres and dozens of degrees uncertainty after a munute or so. Apr 10 15:31:08 Just sample the GPS every 10s or so. Apr 10 15:31:11 for 1s. Apr 10 15:31:17 it's not actually bad. Apr 10 15:31:54 Accellerometer will tell you if it's on a table, or possibly moving. Apr 10 15:32:15 What are your thoughts about attachment backs? Apr 10 15:32:28 Look at the wiki page - it's pretty much got the thoughts :) Apr 10 15:32:35 there's probably a market for that, DukeOfURL Apr 10 15:32:35 k Apr 10 15:32:55 especially for people who move around a lot and want a portable computer Apr 10 15:33:01 an accelerometer would help automatic XRanaR Apr 10 15:33:15 I'm looking at a very narrow niche market. Apr 10 15:33:20 of what? Apr 10 15:33:43 XRanaR??? Apr 10 15:33:55 typo Apr 10 15:34:15 Xrandr Apr 10 15:34:31 fuk: For what niche? Apr 10 15:34:34 err - Duk: Apr 10 15:34:35 yeah Apr 10 15:34:55 you'll probably sell around 10-20 units the first year Apr 10 15:34:59 things like vehicle tracking and teenager monitoring Apr 10 15:35:04 hehe Apr 10 15:35:07 Ah. Apr 10 15:35:08 teenage monitoring XD Apr 10 15:35:15 an ersatz pedometer... Apr 10 15:35:30 should integrate openmoko with oh, say, twitter.com Apr 10 15:35:38 For vehicle tracking, the mic should work. Apr 10 15:35:39 (or rather-- a very over-engineered pedometer :) Apr 10 15:35:41 If it's in a box. Apr 10 15:35:48 no, if you want teen tracking, myspace.com Apr 10 15:36:17 haha Apr 10 15:36:20 lol Apr 10 15:36:20 most kids have 2 myspace accounts Apr 10 15:36:24 1 they show their parents Apr 10 15:36:24 And if it's connected to teh car battery, you don't care. Apr 10 15:36:27 the other with all the pictures Apr 10 15:43:12 with a paedometer (sp?) we could determine if the user was walking... Apr 10 15:43:31 or is it pedometer Apr 10 15:43:33 ? Apr 10 15:44:24 * CoreDump|afk chuckles Apr 10 15:53:17 A paedometer is what you use on myspace to figure out if the person your kids are talking to is safe or not. Apr 10 15:53:41 hahahahaha Apr 10 15:53:42 people visit myspace? Apr 10 15:53:46 bhima: I was about to say.. =D Apr 10 15:53:58 can't you just look at website from '95 on the wayback machine? Apr 10 15:53:58 as in paedophile? Apr 10 15:54:03 my friend wrote a perl script to proxy myspace Apr 10 15:54:14 and remove all the bad web design people do Apr 10 15:54:27 and steal passwords Apr 10 15:54:29 in addition, it computes a "douchebag score" Apr 10 15:54:39 based on how much crap people put in their profile Apr 10 15:54:54 actually having a profile gives you a douchebag score of 5,000 Apr 10 15:55:37 I think there's an entry in /dev for myspace - bad web design. Apr 10 15:55:47 bhima: null? Apr 10 15:55:55 correct. :) Apr 10 15:55:58 :) Apr 10 15:56:43 echo "" `cat /dev/urandom` "" > myspace ? Apr 10 15:57:03 funny, you can actually do that in Plan 9 Apr 10 15:57:04 * dho ducks Apr 10 15:57:21 dho: I know Apr 10 15:57:26 plan 9 is pretty sweet Apr 10 15:57:47 it is just unusable for 99% of the people out there Apr 10 15:57:49 I have a telephone that runs Inferno. Apr 10 15:57:56 bhima: Really? Apr 10 15:58:00 bhima: Which? Apr 10 15:58:12 TuxScreen, originally Philips webphone something or other. Apr 10 15:58:23 Hm. Apr 10 15:58:27 VGA res touch screen with a modem and an IR keyboard. Apr 10 15:58:33 StrongArm based. Apr 10 15:59:16 It's a very, very odd device. Apr 10 15:59:29 It was supposed to be a consumer internet device. Apr 10 15:59:41 But I don't think the message got through to the designers. Apr 10 15:59:47 Its keyboard has lots of buttons. Apr 10 15:59:51 The SoC project I'm likely to mentor is porting Plan 9 to the Neo1973 Apr 10 16:00:17 I think it goes up as high as F13, but maybe just F12. Two control and alt keys, iirc. Apr 10 16:00:20 dho - ;-) Apr 10 16:00:28 scroll lock, of course. Apr 10 16:00:36 and it has an "any" key. Apr 10 16:00:45 hehe Apr 10 16:01:06 Two PCMCIA slots as well. Apr 10 16:01:37 They never made it to market; too expensive. Apr 10 16:01:51 bhima: That doesn't sound odd but rather interesting Apr 10 16:02:18 oh Apr 10 16:02:21 Hm Apr 10 16:02:22 It's odd for something that was designed for non-computer savvy people to use in their living rooms. Apr 10 16:02:28 I have a Siemens SimPAD Apr 10 16:02:28 there are three kinds of onscreen keyboard Apr 10 16:02:38 SIMpad Apr 10 16:02:53 http://www.amstrad.com/products/emailers/e3.html is another sort of device. Apr 10 16:02:56 whatever. It sounds similar, but it's an 8" screen with 6 or so buttons, serial and pc card Apr 10 16:03:04 linux based 'smart-phone'. Apr 10 16:03:12 for email/... use. Apr 10 16:03:29 Running linux. Apr 10 16:04:08 email device, so people do not confuse it with a phone Apr 10 16:04:28 It is a phone. Apr 10 16:04:36 SpeedEvil - (my machine is locked up doing heavy IO, no webbrowser) any binary blobs drivers in that one? Apr 10 16:04:46 I dunno. Apr 10 16:04:53 Actually. Apr 10 16:04:59 It may not run linux natively. Apr 10 16:05:09 You can boot linux on it and use most of the stuff though/ Apr 10 16:05:27 I wonder what video codec they used for getting video streams up/down over 56k Apr 10 16:05:39 Dunno. Apr 10 16:05:41 counter Apr 10 16:05:41 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 19:54:18 (20.829 +-14.0 days) (812,155) Apr 10 16:05:55 i dont know why i watch that thing anymore. Apr 10 16:05:57 my guess would be the "huge framedropping" codec Apr 10 16:06:02 haha Apr 10 16:06:11 Looks like May at the soonest. Apr 10 16:06:28 yeah. mickeyl's last blog post was informative. Apr 10 16:06:37 Not really. Apr 10 16:06:52 * don-o nods Apr 10 16:06:55 It doesn't say if the 'feature freeze' is software or hardware. Apr 10 16:06:59 Will this puch-back the September date as well? Apr 10 16:07:08 push-back Apr 10 16:07:17 good question Apr 10 16:07:19 if it's software, then it could go in 3 weeks or a bit less. If it's hardware, then it's a fair bit more. Apr 10 16:07:28 DukeOfURL: my guess is that this work is equally applicable to the sep launch. Apr 10 16:08:05 half of the advantage for me to get a neo now was to put off iPhone lust. Apr 10 16:08:17 now it looks like they'll come out at the same time. Apr 10 16:08:19 correcto Apr 10 16:08:22 I would guess that the only reason this would push back the consumer launch is because the dev team is taking time fixing this problem that would otherwise spent getting consumer grade apps ready. Apr 10 16:08:53 And also the fact that devs that buy the phone are more likely to dev more actively. Apr 10 16:08:55 The last thing FIC wants is a recall... Apr 10 16:08:55 mickeyl - So you're not allowed to tell us more about the instability issues? Apr 10 16:09:06 It's too bad that people whoa ren't interested in the software stack aren't able to get phones yet :) Apr 10 16:10:07 I don't know if it'll be good or bad, but if they come out at the same time the Neo1973 will likely get a lot of publicity. Apr 10 16:10:29 IMO, that's a really bad plan. Apr 10 16:11:17 The iphone will have _huge_ amounts spent on the media launch. Apr 10 16:11:58 I think they'll spend a lot, but I don't think it'll be that astronomical given how much press coverage it'll get... Apr 10 16:12:10 And the press coverage is where the neo will get mentioned. Apr 10 16:12:26 probably only in techy press coverage though Apr 10 16:12:38 Apple's got a lifestyle market, not a tech product market Apr 10 16:12:49 The Neo1973 is being marketed as a tech product Apr 10 16:13:34 Seeding journalists with neo sample units at about the same time as Apple sends out iPhones might be itneresting. Apr 10 16:13:52 right. samsung and the like have more interesting products than the neo, i would think, from a reporter's point of view. Apr 10 16:14:27 linuxdevices.com will love it Apr 10 16:14:36 I dunno. The samsung seemed like a fairly boring phone that _looked_ like the iPhone, but without any of the interesting innovative stuff. Apr 10 16:15:03 as much as i want an iPhone, i cant stomach the 2-year cingular lockin. Apr 10 16:15:43 by the way, there is an ubuntu qemu+openmoko image for anyone who wants an easy way to play with the emulator. Apr 10 16:15:56 Thankfully, my employer has a pool of up-for-renewal cingular lines awaiting the iPhone. :) Apr 10 16:16:01 don-o: a .deb? Apr 10 16:16:04 i can give the url if anyone wants it. Apr 10 16:16:06 Vegar: tarball Apr 10 16:16:12 * mjr doesn't care much for the umpteen-year Apple "do-what-we-want" lockin either Apr 10 16:16:13 with the qemu in the openmoko svn? Apr 10 16:16:28 yeah. the neo-enabled qemu. http://yamato.hyte.de/moko/qemu-neo1973.tar.bz2 Apr 10 16:16:30 Hm. Apr 10 16:16:38 I should make one for FreeBSD Apr 10 16:17:05 the only trick is to register a button press you have to hold down the mouse button and wiggle the cursor a bit. Apr 10 16:17:15 a single pixel click is ignored, from what i can tell. Apr 10 16:17:32 single pixel clicks work fine on my compile Apr 10 16:17:34 don-o: what's in the package? Apr 10 16:17:44 I don't like companies who make me do things their way as a matter of principle, but Apple tends to be very good at what they do, so I tolerate it from them. And/or figure out how to hack it. If I can hack my own BT OBEX reception stuff into the iPhone, I will be exceedingly happy. Apr 10 16:18:12 Vegar: qemu+openmoko image Apr 10 16:18:30 pre-flashed? Apr 10 16:19:01 yup. one qemu command line and it's running. Apr 10 16:19:41 i begged for it after hours of frustration trying to just download the source via mokomakefile and monotone. Apr 10 16:19:55 heh Apr 10 16:20:02 I didn't use mokomakefile Apr 10 16:20:22 mokomakefile seemed to work fine but monotone was taking hours and then crashed halfway into it. Apr 10 16:21:10 svn checkout https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973 && ./configure --enable-alsa --target-list=arm-softmmu && make Apr 10 16:21:18 then I used the supplied scripts to download an image Apr 10 16:21:28 hmm. i'll have to try that approach. Apr 10 16:21:48 wait, no monotone involved? i thought that was the only way to access the repo. Apr 10 16:21:56 monotone? Apr 10 16:22:17 what's monotone? Apr 10 16:22:24 its a software revision control system Apr 10 16:22:27 (sort of) like svn Apr 10 16:22:50 I used svn Apr 10 16:23:28 openembedded is using monotone Apr 10 16:23:30 hi all Apr 10 16:23:44 is it possible to buy the terminal yet? Apr 10 16:23:56 the topic in this channel is always accurate. 'in a couple weeks' :) Apr 10 16:23:57 couple of weeks since what date? Apr 10 16:24:03 hehe :) Apr 10 16:24:04 today Apr 10 16:24:11 Zenton: since today. every time you check its from today. Apr 10 16:24:31 'tomorrow, you're always a day away' Apr 10 16:24:50 Zenton: the release was just pushed back to 3 weeks from now. thats the last 'official' word. Apr 10 16:24:58 Zenton: say 'counter' and a bot will answer you Apr 10 16:25:07 (and that was an unofficial word) Apr 10 16:25:12 I think I will buy one when it will be released. Apr 10 16:25:52 oh, yeah, the reason I clicked this channel tab.. Apr 10 16:26:02 is it possible to type æøå with the onscreen keyboard? Apr 10 16:28:17 (norwegian/danish characters) Apr 10 16:33:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MFAQCorrection]] [[User:MarcVerwerft]] [[Web_Address_Field]] [[User:Cayco]] Apr 10 16:35:17 Vegar afaik not, but you afre free to add that capability to the onscreen-keyboard Apr 10 16:35:58 that would require some extensive changes to the keyboard layout Apr 10 16:36:52 replacing the { ; and # keys with å ø and æ respectively Apr 10 16:37:19 and an alt-gr key would probably be required as well to type the removed characters Apr 10 16:38:19 unless there's a more clever way Apr 10 16:38:42 we'll see. atm i think nobody cares for i18n since its just software and were working on getting the hw proper first Apr 10 16:39:37 maybe something as simple as just adding functionality to the äéö-toggle Apr 10 16:40:51 Vegar you could see if it makes sense to add them to the 'symbols' Apr 10 16:41:08 I'm talking about the other onscreen keyboard Apr 10 16:41:10 the white one Apr 10 16:42:02 i see.. i dunno if that stays at all Apr 10 16:42:10 oh Apr 10 16:42:22 in the end, its only a unmodified matchbox-keyboard Apr 10 16:42:34 that keyboard is so much better than the one with the round black keys Apr 10 16:43:15 counter Apr 10 16:43:15 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 19:16:44 (20.803 +-14.0 days) (813,155) Apr 10 16:43:24 uf Apr 10 16:43:27 counter? Apr 10 16:43:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 6 days 19:16:31 (20.803 +-14.0 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-04-30); 5 months, 5 days (158.803 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (814,155) Apr 10 16:44:39 Vegar: i personally do not beliefe in onscreen-keyboards at all. either i can use my fingers or i use a external one with real keys (via bt-hid) Apr 10 16:44:51 s/f/v Apr 10 16:45:00 I like my pocket folding bluetooth keyboard. Apr 10 16:45:04 as far as I can see, there's lots of room for three more buttons on the A/a layout on the black-round-keys keyboard Apr 10 16:45:24 but we'll see. atm most apps are somewhat mocked upo to see where the design is leading. Apr 10 16:45:50 ok Apr 10 16:46:26 if you have a suggestion you'd like to ass, just edit it to the talk: pages of the wiki Apr 10 16:46:33 s/ss/dd Apr 10 16:46:50 i should really stop using gprs and find me a caffee ;) Apr 10 16:46:52 the talk pages are good for both :-P Apr 10 16:47:34 ;) Apr 10 16:48:33 * bhima waves at TimRiker. Apr 10 16:48:54 * bhima has a midplane board for a tuxscreen on his desk right now. Custom one I made for my car. :) Apr 10 16:49:25 bbl Apr 10 17:01:40 :) /me wishes for openmoko hardware. Apr 10 17:02:00 * TimRiker has some tuxscreens to trade if that would help. :) Apr 10 17:02:32 TimRiker: You _still_ haven't gotten rid of them all? :) Apr 10 17:02:55 bhima: just a few around that need jtag recovery or other minor tweaks. Apr 10 17:03:07 all the nicely boxed working ones got sold. Apr 10 17:03:18 TimRiker: oh you have assembled more TuxScreens (again)? Apr 10 17:03:26 but I have some that are fine, just no boxes, and some that are not fine that have boxes, etc. Apr 10 17:03:56 * bhima has about four of 'em right now at various stages: Unused, Used but stock image, DIsassembled to make a single fat LCD-sized system, and one with my custom midplane perfectly sized for the dashboard of a Saturn L-series. Apr 10 17:04:01 zecke|away: well, not at the moment, no. I just have parts around that could make a few working units if I did spend time on them. Apr 10 17:04:24 bhima: nice. Apr 10 17:04:59 I'd love to have a nice touchscreen in-dash computer that was hackable. Apr 10 17:05:10 TimRiker: THe only problem is that, despite my dash being perfect for this...I have to choose 2 out of 3: Empeg, TuxScreen, AC controller. Apr 10 17:05:31 I have an RC servo to actuate the temperature control for the AC Apr 10 17:05:36 can't use the tux to control the empeg? :) Apr 10 17:05:52 heh. then the tux can control the ac too. Apr 10 17:05:53 I need to do a black box reverse engineering of the AC PCB, since I don't know enough analog to really figure it out. Apr 10 17:06:19 Oh, and I need to re-spin the touch screen and backlight level parts of my midplane. Apr 10 17:06:28 It's, erm, a work in progress. :) Apr 10 17:06:33 :) Apr 10 17:06:38 * SpeedEvil is contemplating removing the AC (well - heater) control panel of his car. Apr 10 17:06:44 I really like the rotary control and plasma display of the empeg. Apr 10 17:06:56 Though in my case, it involves actually making servos to push/pull the wires. Apr 10 17:07:11 I don't have a current tuxscreen photo in my car, but I have a few other gadgets.... Apr 10 17:07:12 http://homepage.mac.com/gopiballava/gopimobile/ Apr 10 17:07:36 I discovered that the physical button for the hazard lights contains the timing relay for the turn signal. Apr 10 17:07:55 SpeedEvil: My previous car used a lot more mechanical stuff. '96 Golf. Apr 10 17:08:22 * SpeedEvil is on a 98 nissan Micra :/ Apr 10 17:08:38 My Saturn has a mechanical temperature control, and a simple high current switch for the fan levels, and a simple AC switch, but the fan location control is complicated. Apr 10 17:08:41 But it's cheap, easy to work on, and bits are available easily. Apr 10 17:08:51 whats the one on the left by the mirror? Apr 10 17:08:59 lunch... Apr 10 17:09:02 left == nokia 770 Apr 10 17:09:17 * bhima will be back in an hour or so. Apr 10 17:09:19 ahh yeah. 700 and an 800? Apr 10 17:09:44 Yes. :) Apr 10 17:09:56 And a P800 and a Nokia E70. Apr 10 17:10:07 I'm thinking of putting a half keyboard to my left. Apr 10 17:10:09 bbl. Apr 10 17:12:54 official word like where Apr 10 17:13:15 also how about skipping p1 and releasing p1.5 right away instead Apr 10 17:13:29 buz++ :) Apr 10 17:13:36 openmoko: 03rob * r1721 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Apr 10 17:13:36 openmoko: 2007-04-10 Rob Bradford Apr 10 17:13:36 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-message-dialog.c: Apr 10 17:13:36 openmoko: (moko_message_dialog_set_message): Apr 10 17:13:36 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-message-dialog.h: Apr 10 17:13:38 openmoko: Give the moko_dialog_set_message function a vsprintf varargs parameter Apr 10 17:13:42 openmoko: and use this when generating the message. Apr 10 17:24:46 re. Apr 10 17:24:58 heh Apr 10 17:31:15 balrog-kun: shit. Apr 10 17:31:20 balrog-kun: I figured out why gstat wasn't working. Apr 10 17:33:55 balrog-kun: FreeBSD has a gstat utility for GEOM statistics. your openmoko/env should have a if [ -x /usr/local/bin/gstat ] stat=/usr/local/bin/gstat Apr 10 17:37:00 Anybody need / want a precompiled / preflashed FreeBSD qemu image? Apr 10 17:57:07 counter Apr 10 17:57:08 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 18:02:51 (20.752 +-14.0 days) (815,155) Apr 10 17:57:50 tag Apr 10 18:01:28 Man, this counter is always around two weeks. Apr 10 18:01:32 So sad. *sniffle* Apr 10 18:03:14 they need to take the Scotty approach -- purposefully overestimate to impress ;) Apr 10 18:03:46 s/ful// Apr 10 18:03:47 MacNorth meant: they need to take the Scotty approach -- purposely overestimate to impress ;) Apr 10 18:22:46 \j Apr 10 18:25:09 on the plus side, it makes it easier and easier to decide to wait for the upgrade Apr 10 18:28:08 Hello, I'm sorry for question which might be already answered (and freely ignore me if so), but I have not found anything in wiki - is there real possibility to include multitouch screen in some of next phases? If we don't take into account problematic support from X's side.. Apr 10 18:28:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Address_Field]] [[Sound_/_Recording_Preview]] [[Action_Button]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[Talk:FAQ]] Apr 10 18:33:21 i wonder if that was some of the 'secret' stuff in mickey's post Apr 10 18:36:07 * mmp hopes so Apr 10 18:38:23 does anyone ever actually chat here. Apr 10 18:38:52 chat. Apr 10 18:38:52 :) Apr 10 18:38:54 no, it's mainly sheming that goes on Apr 10 18:38:58 and some gossip Apr 10 18:39:06 usually its the bots playing pingpong Apr 10 18:39:06 :-)) Apr 10 18:39:23 | . Apr 10 18:39:32 . | Apr 10 18:39:39 | . Apr 10 18:39:42 | . Apr 10 18:39:55 I missed :( Apr 10 18:39:56 . | Apr 10 18:40:03 . < Apr 10 18:40:03 . | Apr 10 18:40:03 crap Apr 10 18:40:07 :) Apr 10 18:40:50 pong is tricky. Apr 10 18:40:59 like thermodynamics. Apr 10 18:42:02 but unlike thermodynamics, the energy in a pong system increases with time Apr 10 18:42:40 and unlike thermodynamics everyone know how to play pong Apr 10 18:42:59 but isn't pong a closed system Apr 10 18:43:34 wait. Apr 10 18:43:45 why are we discussing the physics of pong. Apr 10 18:44:05 dbbolton: depends on the momentum of the ball:) Apr 10 18:50:27 has anyone used the minimo browser ? Apr 10 18:50:28 dbbolton: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 10 18:53:13 well, look into it. Apr 10 18:54:51 counter Apr 10 18:54:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 17:05:08 (20.712 +-14.0 days) (816,156) Apr 10 18:55:04 Is the counter in any way accurate? Apr 10 18:55:33 bhima: the +- thingy is deviation IIRC :) Apr 10 18:56:13 bhima: it's just guessing Apr 10 18:58:50 Semi-educated guessing. Apr 10 19:01:21 a/win 23 Apr 10 19:01:23 bah Apr 10 19:12:11 mickeyl: iirc tomorow is deadline for soC Apr 10 19:16:27 Magon: yes Apr 10 19:18:37 i still have no comments :-( Apr 10 20:21:40 hi Apr 10 20:22:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Translation]] [[System_Info]] [[User:Hillar]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Address_Field]] [[Sound_/_Recording_Preview]] [[Action_Button]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[MFAQCorrection]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] and other changes Apr 10 20:23:10 <_m0> hi @all Apr 10 20:23:18 hi Apr 10 20:28:02 ooh, xsigo. Apr 10 20:28:11 dsp: Do you know Mike Baker? Apr 10 20:29:01 or not. Apr 10 20:32:47 (script) openmoko-neo1973: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: In Taipei for OLPC stuff. Visit FIC? Apr 10 20:33:27 :) Apr 10 20:36:25 is there an accelerometer in the neo? Apr 10 20:36:34 a which? Apr 10 20:36:34 No Apr 10 20:36:53 seemant: Like laptop HDs have Apr 10 20:37:00 from the wiki: "[1] is the datasheet for an example of the sort of accellerometer in the neo" Apr 10 20:37:03 Or the wii-mote Apr 10 20:37:20 Hmm.. Never heard that Apr 10 20:38:11 Vegar: Is that on the wishlist? Apr 10 20:38:22 yes Apr 10 20:38:28 Wishlist:Determine_Position Apr 10 20:38:40 It's peoples wishes for what to put in version 2 or later Apr 10 20:39:26 I agree that wiki-page was a bit unclear though Apr 10 20:40:03 Vegar: typo perhaps - I put that in there. Apr 10 20:40:25 I meant 'a datasheet of an accellrometer of the type that might be put in the neo. Apr 10 20:40:48 SpeedEvil: Would definitely be nice to have though.. Wii-mote style waving ;) Apr 10 20:40:51 is that supposed to be classified information? Apr 10 20:40:58 (Not as exact though without that ir thing..) Apr 10 20:41:21 Vegar: It's just suggested things people would like to see in future phones, so no secrets Apr 10 20:45:34 CM: but he made it sound like it was already there Apr 10 20:46:15 Heya, everyone. Apr 10 20:50:37 * SpeedEvil updates the page. Apr 10 20:50:54 Vegar: it has a history - there was a reason for it to be phrased like that. Apr 10 20:51:05 ok Apr 10 20:51:49 However, I've altered it, and rewritten the page, including a pointer to wikipedia on inertial guidance. Apr 10 20:51:57 The idea is basically a non-starter. Apr 10 20:52:15 For other than positions over several seconds. Apr 10 20:55:58 accelerometers are still interesting things though Apr 10 20:56:34 has anyone been doing Bootloader JTAG debugging using the DebugBoard/OpenOCD? How well does it work? Apr 10 20:56:43 (Actually, 80m after 1 minute is not that bad. Car at 60kph does 1km a minute) Apr 10 20:56:47 dead reckoning is damn difficult Apr 10 20:57:12 especially abstracted from accelerometer input Apr 10 20:57:48 that's 80m/minute, assuming that you've got a three axis accellerometer, and three axes gyroscope. Apr 10 20:58:28 which would add some $50 or so to the cost price, or $100 to the sticker. Apr 10 20:59:04 but why do that when you have GPS? Apr 10 20:59:05 There are lots of interesting things you can do with them, yes. Apr 10 20:59:14 GPS doesn't work so well in tunnels. Apr 10 20:59:20 right Apr 10 20:59:22 Or indoors, or ... Apr 10 20:59:26 i think an accelerometer would be a very handy thing to have, but not for determining position Apr 10 21:00:00 things like playig monkey ball! Apr 10 21:00:05 However, unfortunately, even _really_expensive_ ($100K) positioning systems aren't really good enough to maintain a decent position after several hours. Apr 10 21:00:06 Some cars/other devices use mixed navigation - when there is no GPS signal, they switch to accelerometer-based motion estimations. Apr 10 21:00:25 For cars, the wheels are a _lovely_ source of nav info. Apr 10 21:00:43 right, too :) Apr 10 21:00:49 unless you burn the tires much ;-) Apr 10 21:00:58 or the roads are icy Apr 10 21:01:01 Especially as the sensors - for the ABS may be there already. Apr 10 21:01:33 If you're drifting, I don't think you're really going to care about nav system performance :) Apr 10 21:04:18 maybe you are drifting in a chase with someone that laid down a smokescreen and you need your nav system to tell see where you are on the road. :P Apr 10 21:06:01 Maybe fiddling with your phone is not the best thing to do while drifting in a smokescreen. Apr 10 21:06:01 speed: For some people, drifting is okay and wanted. Apr 10 21:06:44 Sure. Apr 10 21:07:00 I just doubt that that intersects with the desire for precise position information. Apr 10 21:07:31 As few sane people will drift without knowing the road. Apr 10 21:08:25 Maybe to remove the co-driver in Rally :) Apr 10 21:08:31 " For cars, the wheels are a _lovely_ source of nav info." or unless your car can fly BTTF style :P Apr 10 21:09:00 GaKkGaKk: Pop over to #osm on irc.oftc.net and propose some new mapping tags. Apr 10 21:09:29 Just hope that the person that tagged the road is careful. Apr 10 21:11:21 Would be bad to have the competitor tag a fifth gear left when you are passing a bridge :\ Apr 10 21:16:52 GaKkGaKk: gakkgakk fra EFNet? Apr 10 21:24:15 Probably not, but probably the original Gakkgakk Apr 10 21:24:16 :) Apr 10 21:26:11 "gakkgakk" is actually norwegian for "duck" or "ducky"... The way children say it. Apr 10 21:26:42 The important thing is: Will I be able to play OpenTTD on OpenMoko? Apr 10 21:26:45 ok Apr 10 21:28:24 who was it that played freeciv on his neo? Apr 10 21:31:13 Vegar, :) Apr 10 21:31:14 Is there chance to get openmoko dialing (etc) software working without gsm07.10 support? Apr 10 21:31:42 it's opensource! everything's possibel :) Apr 10 21:35:30 pavelm have you tried the emulator? Apr 10 21:36:02 ah.. and it works already without 07.10 since the modem in the moko falls back to normal at-commands on ther serial Apr 10 21:39:54 openmoko: 03mickey * r1722 10/trunk/oe/packages/initscripts/ (4 files in 2 dirs): oe/initscripts: add extra quotes fixing the checkroot.sh bug Apr 10 21:41:23 Vegar: Heh, I found a screenshot of the Neo with freeciv on flickr,.. This is a must have, as soon as possible, Apr 10 21:41:36 openmoko: 03mickey * r1723 10/trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/ (7 files in 7 dirs): oe/sysvinit: fix double tty1 bug in inittab. close #430 Apr 10 21:44:12 roh: I do not have emulator running :-( Apr 10 21:45:08 pavelm: why not? Apr 10 21:46:21 dho: Because I have real hw here ;-) Apr 10 21:49:08 hehe Apr 10 21:49:53 loser :( Apr 10 21:49:53 haha Apr 10 21:49:59 ;) Apr 10 21:52:03 dho did you document your changes to get the emu and or buildsys running on fbsd somewhere? Apr 10 21:53:09 roh: No. It's mostly just the FreeBSD port, and I need balrog-kun to make one more change to flash.sh and it will be an easy enough process to put on the wiki Apr 10 21:56:48 Ok, bye for now. Apr 10 21:57:04 Bye pavelm Apr 10 21:57:05 (Compiled my own kernel, with all the needed features, but could not make it boot :() Apr 10 22:01:12 dho nice. Apr 10 22:03:09 roh: At that point it'll be a matter of typing ``make install; cd work/qemu-neo1973; openmoko/download.sh; openmoko/flash.sh" Apr 10 22:05:45 Is there a nice way to revert to a given version on the wiki? Apr 10 22:05:50 al? Apr 10 22:05:54 Or is it manual Apr 10 22:17:11 Ah - got it. Apr 10 22:18:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Clock]] [[Terminal]] [[Bluetooth_Connection_Status]] [[Message_Preview]] [[Sketchbook]] [[FAQ]] [[Sample_Native-Finger_Application]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] Apr 10 22:19:50 counter Apr 10 22:19:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 13:40:09 (20.570 +-14.0 days) (817,156) Apr 10 22:20:24 okay. it's been adjusted according to latest update. Apr 10 22:24:42 What's the (increasing) number at the end? Apr 10 22:26:24 cbaird: i think it's how many times it's been displayed (people saying "counter") Apr 10 22:27:12 but it seems more like two numbers (and not 817156 with , as a 10³ separator) Apr 10 22:30:00 I'll suggest a unique-IP-visit-on-the-Main_Page counter :) ... "Oh goodie, we're being /.ed again! More promotion happening!" Apr 10 23:14:19 ( cd openembedded ; rm -f patches ; \ Apr 10 23:14:23 ln -sfn ../patches/openembedded-e2dbb52fe39df7ef786b6068f6178f29508dfded patches ) Apr 10 23:14:27 [ ! -e openmoko/patches/series ] || \ Apr 10 23:14:31 ( cd openmoko ; quilt push -a ) Apr 10 23:14:35 Applying patch patches/sysvinit-inittab-duplicated-lines.patch Apr 10 23:14:35 patching file trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/sysvinit/fic-gta01/inittab Apr 10 23:14:35 Hunk #1 FAILED at 33. Apr 10 23:14:35 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/sysvinit/fic-gta01/inittab Apr 10 23:14:35 Patch patches/sysvinit-inittab-duplicated-lines.patch can be reverse-applied Apr 10 23:14:35 make: *** [setup-patches] Error 1 Apr 10 23:15:53 http://www.pastebin.ca/433691 mokomakefile Apr 10 23:23:57 filippo: there have been a few recent commits to the mokomakefile. have you 'make update-makefile' ? Apr 10 23:24:07 counter Apr 10 23:24:08 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: 2 weeks, 6 days 12:35:51 (20.525 +-14.0 days) (818,156) Apr 10 23:26:48 yes i update Apr 10 23:35:42 openmoko: 03mickey * r1724 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (4 files): Apr 10 23:35:42 openmoko: libmokoui: remove outdated code (moko-search-bar) Apr 10 23:35:42 openmoko: GtkTreeView: add fixed mode to improve performance Apr 10 23:35:42 openmoko: GtkTreeView: try to set the adjustment to scroll the full height of entries... doesn't work though :( Apr 10 23:36:15 openmoko: 03mickey * r1725 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: openmoko-stylus-demo: no longer use MokoNavigationList, this widget is deprecated and will be gone soon Apr 11 00:01:27 openmoko: 03mickey * r1726 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-tree-view.c: Apr 11 00:01:27 openmoko: MokoTreeView: fix problem layed out in last commit log. Apr 11 00:01:27 openmoko: Remaining issue: make the MokoTreeView only to allocate its size based on a grid, i.e. a whole-number factor of the row height Apr 11 00:14:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Input_Method]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] Apr 11 00:40:21 Oh, the commit log is such a tease. Apr 11 00:44:32 tease? why's that? Apr 11 00:54:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=OpenMoko_Playboy_Promotion ... :) Apr 11 00:54:49 d'oh, that didn't appear as I wanted. :/ Apr 11 01:02:10 playboy promotion? :-D Apr 11 01:13:29 filippo: fixing now Apr 11 01:13:55 thanks Apr 11 01:14:07 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r90 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (series sysvinit-inittab-duplicated-lines.patch): Remove sysvinit patch - applied upstream. Apr 11 01:14:13 mickey applied the patch earlier this morning. Apr 11 01:16:35 where I can find documentation about quilt ? Apr 11 01:17:50 I find a pdf Apr 11 01:25:37 aevin, 'Cause, you know, I want the phone! Apr 11 01:25:41 And every commit reminds me! Apr 11 01:39:32 *** No rule to make target `moko-search-bar.lo', needed by `libmokoui.la'. Stop. Apr 11 01:40:33 good night I restar the make and tomorrow post detailed error Apr 11 02:08:47 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Calculator]] [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[Application_Menu]] [[Input_Method]] **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 11 02:59:57 2007