**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 25 02:59:56 2007 Apr 25 03:01:22 (openmoko.com change should be visible in this channel in 15 minutes of it happening) Apr 25 03:07:02 counter_msg http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) Apr 25 03:07:02 aloril changed counter prefix message to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) Apr 25 03:09:06 again, enddate in range was changed only 3 days compared to yesterday, eventually yesterday counter would have reached date its now proposing ;-) Apr 25 03:09:52 counter? Apr 25 03:09:52 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 5 days 20:50:06 (19.868 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 3 weeks (144.368 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1003;179) Apr 25 03:10:02 and shorter version: Apr 25 03:10:03 counter Apr 25 03:10:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 20:49:55 (19.868 +-3.5 days) (1004;179) Apr 25 03:10:15 k Apr 25 03:10:44 target date was moving forward every 2 days in yesterday counter (==reducing uncertainty) ;-) Apr 25 03:11:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] [[Neo1973]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]] Apr 25 03:16:52 * aloril wonders if he can assume that "next product" means P1.5 (GTA02) Apr 25 03:17:50 ask Sean =) Apr 25 03:19:10 i'm not on the list... yet Apr 25 03:20:00 would a usb mouse be possible to use with the openmoko? Apr 25 03:21:13 without a powered hub, i don't think so Apr 25 03:21:41 but with a powered hub would it be possible? Apr 25 03:22:09 but we have bluetooth Apr 25 03:22:22 in words of Steve Jobs ´how cool is that?´ Apr 25 03:22:38 are there bluetooth mice? Apr 25 03:22:58 bt mouse & kb, and vnc-connected with your office using your phone Apr 25 03:23:04 thats freaking cool Apr 25 03:23:22 :) Apr 25 03:23:37 with powered hub any USB product that works in Linux should work (except those that require binary i386 driver) Apr 25 03:24:12 balrog-kun: hi Apr 25 03:24:34 that is soo cool Apr 25 03:25:45 newegg.com has some bluetooth mice Apr 25 03:25:52 actually also you need to take into account that its > 10x slower than normal desktop PC ;-) Apr 25 03:26:01 like U$35 Apr 25 03:27:08 ppc970: with GPRS connection you might want to look at FreeNX Apr 25 03:29:23 haven´t heard of freenx in a while Apr 25 04:22:24 'Oh and Imre Kaloz gets a freed phone, too. Thanks for being the first to Apr 25 04:22:24 tell us about Atheros. We're almost for sure going to use their AR6K Apr 25 04:22:24 chipset in our next product.' Apr 25 04:22:39 yup Apr 25 04:22:50 who is Imre? Apr 25 04:23:31 works for Atheros? Apr 25 04:23:44 (at least it sounds from above like that) Apr 25 04:23:50 hey, thats cheating! Apr 25 04:23:56 ;) Apr 25 04:24:12 Oh, I remember Apr 25 04:24:34 they would give a Neo to the first that found a proper wifi chipset Apr 25 04:25:06 actually above doesn't tell whether he works for Atheros Apr 25 04:26:21 yea does that mean there will be wifi in the september release Apr 25 04:29:24 because the wifi determined if i would even get an openmoko i really need wifi Apr 25 04:29:28 :) Apr 25 04:29:48 me too Apr 25 04:30:25 get a Neo, not an OpenMoko ;) Apr 25 04:31:11 um.. P1.5 release (doubt this is June, but probably before September) ? Apr 25 04:31:32 and I think P2==P1.5 as hardware (software of course changes) Apr 25 04:31:41 P2==September release Apr 25 04:33:16 would be there any difference between P2 and Release? Apr 25 04:34:17 i thought the legal status of the atheros driver was in question. Apr 25 04:34:22 counter Apr 25 04:34:22 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 19:25:36 (19.809 +-3.5 days) (1005;179) Apr 25 04:35:31 How are they going to figure out who gets in on the 05-10 and 05-17 releases? Apr 25 04:36:03 Postmarks on the checks? :) Apr 25 04:36:09 i dont know but i hope the reall big carriers who have shown interest get a good dibs Apr 25 04:36:52 Yeah, does T-Mobile have dibs or Cingular? Apr 25 04:37:11 i said big carriers, that means tmobile isn't in the running ;) Apr 25 04:37:27 * high-rez ducks Apr 25 04:38:05 hope to be the first one in Colombia to get one :) Apr 25 04:42:27 T-Mobile has 25 million subscribers. Apr 25 04:42:43 Cingular has 61m. Apr 25 04:43:10 globally, they have 25mil. In the US they're a small player. Apr 25 04:43:32 hey, I have T-mobile, and I'm the only thing that counts Apr 25 04:43:54 heh Apr 25 04:43:56 * kito_ is self-important Apr 25 04:44:35 kito_: preorder order? Apr 25 04:45:04 No, globally it's 98m Apr 25 04:45:04 ppc970: Release==P2 Apr 25 04:45:14 T-Mobile has 25M world wide? Apr 25 04:45:22 aloril: any idea when they'll be doing that Apr 25 04:45:30 i know this local operators were a fu/&%$ liers Apr 25 04:45:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmobile#United_States Apr 25 04:45:41 kito_: September is mass market release Apr 25 04:45:49 bhima: then your US # is off, way off. Apr 25 04:45:56 http://www.mobiletracker.net/archives/2007/01/28/t-mobile-25-million-subscribers Apr 25 04:45:58 not looking for mass market. I'd like to develop Apr 25 04:46:10 kito_: about preorder: subscribe to announce mailing list Apr 25 04:46:15 I'll probably have some free time over the summer to play with stuff Apr 25 04:46:19 I got a 5 year old phone or something like that I would like to change to this one :) Apr 25 04:46:29 oh, 25M just in USA Apr 25 04:46:29 No phone had any features I wanted before now Apr 25 04:48:06 i think 25 million is optimistic if they count every sim ever sold, even as voicestream. but, if thats what they're claiming, i won't argue. Apr 25 04:48:49 perhaps a site should be setup so all potential developers can register. just so they'll know how many people are out there Apr 25 04:50:15 high-rez: If they lied that blatantly in an official release, the SEC will probably get somebody thrown in prison. Apr 25 04:50:22 * CoreDump|afk abuses neo as ebook reader and heads to bed Apr 25 04:50:42 high-rez: They expressly claim that as current customers. Apr 25 04:51:00 kito_, FYI there's a wiki page for doing just that. Apr 25 04:52:22 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Some light ahead... Apr 25 04:52:25 t-mobile i owned by deutsche telekom, so i'm sure they don't worry about the SEC. That said, all US carriers play with the definition of active sub. Apr 25 04:52:34 high-rez: carrier stuff is for September release (unless you mean developers at carriers) Apr 25 04:53:24 high-rez: I think the German government would be nastier. Apr 25 04:53:43 aloril: I do mean carriers as developers. Apr 25 04:56:09 * kito_ goes back and digs around the wiki some more... Apr 25 05:02:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Buying_Interest_List (but as it says its not preorder page or anything like that, currently best place is to subscribe to announce mailing list) Apr 25 05:02:51 (also here should be blurb once openmoko.com changes) Apr 25 05:03:29 * aloril thinks numbers at Buying_Interest_List can be multiplied at least by 10 Apr 25 05:06:43 whoa Apr 25 05:06:47 that's a lot of people Apr 25 05:06:55 I was 243 on that list Apr 25 05:07:06 2000 developers? that would be insane Apr 25 05:10:23 Most cellphones suck. Apr 25 05:10:59 OTOH, when I look at, say, the level of developer support for Python on series60, while there is a lot, it's not _that_ much, and there are many millions of s60 phones out there. Apr 25 05:11:00 lol Apr 25 05:12:11 The local cingular rep was by today, and seemd to think that we wouldn't be getting 3g for a number of years. Apr 25 05:12:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]] [[Neo1973]] Apr 25 05:12:24 bleh Apr 25 05:12:41 bhima: Huh? Are you in the boonies? Apr 25 05:12:43 so, that makes the neo1973 and iPhone both significantly more attractive. Apr 25 05:13:00 high-rez: I'm in florida. low population density. Apr 25 05:13:06 You know, there are lots of phones out there with great hardware specs, but the lack of software to really take advantage makes it all worthless Apr 25 05:13:25 kito: *mumble mumble windows mobile* Apr 25 05:13:31 I felt the same way about my Axim X50V Apr 25 05:13:49 I wanted to use it as a calculator (symbolic math, etc...) Apr 25 05:13:59 its got the power for it, but the software is really lacking Apr 25 05:14:04 * aloril suspects most who buy Neo1973 won't actually be developers ;-) Apr 25 05:14:14 indeed Apr 25 05:14:43 I think a lot of people will buy into the developer batch and then be disappointed because everything ain't done yet Apr 25 05:15:20 * bhima remembers his SonyEricsson P800. UIQ was very unpolished. Apr 25 05:15:30 Some of the dialogs had, say, extra white space. Apr 25 05:15:46 The stuff would fit, but you scrolled for extra white space. Apr 25 05:16:36 The UIQ platform didn't ship with a phone dialling app. Apr 25 05:16:45 Phone vendors needed to write their own. Apr 25 05:18:15 kito_: Nokia N800 is not a phone, but they do have issues. That is probably one of several reasons why they do not push it, but sell it to the open source crowd Apr 25 05:18:41 kito_: The issues is small, but all over in the firmware Apr 25 05:19:12 First impression might be important Apr 25 05:21:03 need to stress that this is meant for developers (even if anybody can buy it) Apr 25 05:21:23 :) Apr 25 05:21:50 You could ask two or three questions on the order form. Apr 25 05:22:25 Ask a simple C programming quesiton. Apr 25 05:22:38 If they get the answer wrong, warn them that they may not be happy... Apr 25 05:22:58 heh Apr 25 05:23:14 aloril: i'm not working for atheros ;) Apr 25 05:23:29 * aloril thinks touch screen is cool thing (and I thought this before iPhone announcement) Apr 25 05:23:33 morning btw Apr 25 05:23:38 neuros has done the same thing with their osd (i.e. an unfinished, yet open-to-anybody release), and there really isn't any trouble Apr 25 05:23:39 Kaloz: OK, wrong guess Apr 25 05:25:04 oh, the happy winner ;) Apr 25 05:25:22 Kaloz: congrats Apr 25 05:25:43 yeah, great research Apr 25 05:26:04 thanks :) as i'm already a phase0 guy and will get one anyways, the second free one will land at another openwrt developer ;) Apr 25 05:26:11 yeah, we are here to conquer Apr 25 05:26:11 :P Apr 25 05:29:19 * aloril bets Nokia will watch with great interest what happens with OpenMoko and Neo1973 Apr 25 05:29:41 you cna be sure Apr 25 05:29:59 yea Apr 25 05:30:02 the nokia devs hate symbian - just they have no choice Apr 25 05:30:18 creating a linux based platform yourself is quite some job Apr 25 05:30:38 if you can use someone else's, than you're set Apr 25 05:32:26 Nokia doesn't have touchscreen products except N770/N800? Apr 25 05:32:42 I think they have some obscure chinese ones. Apr 25 05:32:47 Nokia makes one UIQ phone. Apr 25 05:34:21 guess: reason is that it's major coding effort to get touchscreen support in their Symbian applications Apr 25 05:36:33 The UI doesn't lend itself well to touch screen. Apr 25 05:37:20 * aloril wonders if Nokia at some point will release actual Linux *phone* Apr 25 05:37:58 Nokia's putting a lot of effort into symbian. They now have many more POSIX APIs on it. Apr 25 05:38:27 Nokia is good at kicking dead horses, long after they've begun to smell bad. Apr 25 05:39:06 * bhima mumbles ngage Apr 25 05:39:19 i've got one of those somewhere Apr 25 05:41:50 * bhima still uses his sometimes. Apr 25 05:41:55 it was cheap, and runs s60. Apr 25 06:03:56 bed time... bye Apr 25 06:41:22 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Some light ahead... Apr 25 06:59:17 counter Apr 25 06:59:17 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 17:00:41 (19.709 +-3.5 days) (1006;179) Apr 25 06:59:25 that seems about right ;) Apr 25 06:59:26 counter? Apr 25 06:59:26 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 5 days 17:00:32 (19.709 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 3 weeks (144.209 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1007;179) Apr 25 07:03:58 good morning Apr 25 07:11:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[Neo1973]] [[User:Arthur_Dent]] [[FAQ]] [[Talk:Main_Page]] Apr 25 07:11:35 morgen Apr 25 07:16:12 morning Apr 25 07:21:38 latest Sean mail seems to confirm that wifi talk in announcement pertains to P1.5 Apr 25 07:31:36 mickey|bbiab: tell the o-hand gang to commit moko_paned_window_set_lower_pane, moko_paned_window_set_upper_pa Apr 25 07:34:42 morning Apr 25 07:34:51 zecke: I will tell them Apr 25 07:35:58 hrw: is thomas on irc? Apr 25 07:36:18 !ombug 513 Apr 25 07:36:18 * * Bug 513, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown Apr 25 07:36:19 * * autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org: openmoko-dates-0.1+svnnow-r8_0_0_450-do_compile Apr 25 07:36:20 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=513 Apr 25 07:37:50 zecke: as thos if is Apr 25 07:49:58 hi Apr 25 07:54:51 how do i emulate openmoko on my ubuntu computer Apr 25 07:56:06 faq? Apr 25 07:56:06 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Apr 25 07:56:15 i would like to look at the interface Apr 25 07:56:54 wehttamb_: see above link: you can run software directly or in qemu Apr 25 07:57:35 ok Apr 25 08:07:42 im folowing these instructions http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU is that what im meant to do? Apr 25 08:16:29 probably easiest way Apr 25 08:37:27 good morning Apr 25 08:38:53 'mornin Apr 25 08:39:07 hi Stephmw florian Apr 25 08:47:56 Free my phone! please! Apr 25 08:49:55 Just drive into the woods, and release it into the wild. =P Apr 25 08:50:52 Phone Software Liberation Front? Apr 25 08:51:05 nope, Liberation Front for Phone Software Apr 25 08:51:56 like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_Gnome_Liberation_Front Apr 25 08:52:47 did you ever go to eastern germany? Apr 25 08:53:01 openmoko: 03laforge * r1827 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/unsolicited.c: zero LAC and CI if +CREG is 0 / 2 (and not 1). (Closes: #454) Apr 25 08:53:24 counter Apr 25 08:53:24 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 15:06:34 (19.630 +-3.5 days) (1008;179) Apr 25 08:56:22 (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger Re: Bricked? Apr 25 08:59:39 * aloril wonders if preorder page will be up in 1-1.5 weeks Apr 25 09:00:23 "there is no such thing as big enough desk - there are not yet cluttered ones" - is it proper English? Apr 25 09:01:27 "There is no such thing as a big enough desk - just ones which are not yet cluttered" Apr 25 09:01:28 any English speaker would understand what you said the first time, though Apr 25 09:05:55 I was wondering about the stylus. I've no experience with touchscreen devices, so I must ask; Could I get a stylus for a different ts phone, say some sony-ericsson, and use it with neo? Apr 25 09:06:13 sure Apr 25 09:06:18 good Apr 25 09:06:50 hi Rakshasa :) youre the guy from rtorrent, right? Apr 25 09:07:14 roh: what's rtorrent? =P Apr 25 09:07:29 lol Apr 25 09:07:38 *g* Apr 25 09:07:41 http://libtorrent.rakshasa.no Apr 25 09:07:42 XD Apr 25 09:07:57 No, I aint him. Apr 25 09:08:16 ;) Apr 25 09:12:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] Apr 25 09:13:01 counter Apr 25 09:13:01 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 14:46:56 (19.616 +-3.5 days) (1009;179) Apr 25 09:13:14 hm Apr 25 09:13:17 one week added Apr 25 09:14:11 openmoko: 03laforge * r1828 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-pcf50606.patch: Apr 25 09:14:11 openmoko: * remove bogus outdated comment about missing check for overvoltage Apr 25 09:14:11 openmoko: * printk warning message if somebody tries to set an overvoltage Apr 25 09:14:42 hrw: or "there is no such thing as big enough desk, just ones that aren't cluttered yet" Apr 25 09:16:04 woglinde_: Already read Sean update? Apr 25 09:16:04 woglinde_: The date is the first production run. Apr 25 09:16:45 stefan hm no Apr 25 09:16:55 maybee its time to subscribe to the lists Apr 25 09:17:39 on which list? Apr 25 09:18:06 so wlan for 1.5 is in the hopes? Apr 25 09:18:31 morning Apr 25 09:18:40 morning, mickeyl Apr 25 09:18:44 stefan_schmidt: give me 20 minutes for brewing coffee, then i call you, ok? Apr 25 09:18:58 he mickeyl Apr 25 09:19:02 hiho woglinde Apr 25 09:19:07 guaqua, ambiguous Apr 25 09:19:08 "We're almost for sure going to use their AR6K Apr 25 09:19:09 chipset in our next product." Apr 25 09:19:30 thx Apr 25 09:19:35 I wouldn't count on next product meaning the neo1973 upgrade Apr 25 09:19:37 mroning hrw Apr 25 09:20:19 mjr: so it's either 1.5 or 2 Apr 25 09:21:33 afaik 1.5 and 2 will be the same hardware Apr 25 09:22:40 counter Apr 25 09:22:41 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 14:37:17 (19.609 +-3.5 days) (1010;179) Apr 25 09:23:02 or then again, the next one from neo Apr 25 09:23:08 mickeyl: Is fine. alphaone has some phone troubles so the 20 minutes are good for him too. Apr 25 09:23:26 oki Apr 25 09:23:31 stefan_schmidt: send me you landline, if you have one :) Apr 25 09:23:42 quality is a bit better over landline Apr 25 09:26:52 morning * Apr 25 09:26:52 * stefan_schmidt fetches a club-mate instead of coffee. Apr 25 09:26:58 hi alphaone Apr 25 09:27:32 mickeyl: Clever me forgot the charger of his cell phone. Apr 25 09:27:40 So I'll have to improvise Apr 25 09:27:49 hehe Apr 25 09:27:57 got a landline anywhere? Apr 25 09:28:00 morning Apr 25 09:28:04 hi roh Apr 25 09:28:07 morning roh Apr 25 09:28:14 roh: when are you in .tw? Apr 25 09:28:32 mickeyl from 9th to 16th of may Apr 25 09:29:16 * roh finally found what messed up his working setup and now is reinstalling from scratch again Apr 25 09:29:45 on the openmoko how do you open the text input onscreen keyboard thing? Apr 25 09:29:57 mickeyl: Got my landline? Apr 25 09:29:57 hi mickeyl Apr 25 09:30:09 stefan_schmidt: yep Apr 25 09:31:27 did i miss a telco? Apr 25 09:32:03 hey stefan_schmidt Apr 25 09:32:03 wehttamb_: use the white rectangle next to the main menu Apr 25 09:32:03 hey hrw Apr 25 09:32:03 s/stefan_schmidt/hrw/ Apr 25 09:32:30 roh: no, i'll just discuss with stefan_schmidt and alphaone their OM tasks for the next 4 weeks Apr 25 09:32:31 wehttamb_: click the grey box on the left side of the top panel. There's just no icon for the osk yet. Apr 25 09:32:32 right after my coffee Apr 25 09:33:10 mickeyl ah. Apr 25 09:34:01 mickeyl: Should the box be white? My monitor can't be that off? O.o Apr 25 09:34:25 the input monitor applet should be white, yes, because it's broken :) Apr 25 09:34:36 But it's grey. Apr 25 09:34:58 hmm Apr 25 09:35:01 could be gray Apr 25 09:35:12 on the device it looks white Apr 25 09:35:13 Hmm. most probably Apr 25 09:36:22 k Apr 25 09:36:31 i wasnt shure what that was Apr 25 09:36:36 No, it's grey. I prefer british. Apr 25 09:36:50 on my computer the box is grey Apr 25 09:37:45 ya Apr 25 09:37:45 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ seems grey as well Apr 25 09:41:50 jserv2: hiya Apr 25 09:42:24 <[dev]Viper> guys, do you think that it will be possible to install openmoko on Qtek 9000 ? Apr 25 09:42:24 [dev]Viper: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 25 09:44:46 deviper maybee Apr 25 09:45:46 i gave up on trying to emulate openmoko emulator for linux and just downloaded the windows binays to use in wine Apr 25 09:45:53 alphaone: phone problems sorted out? Apr 25 09:45:59 i would be ready now :) Apr 25 09:46:15 mickeyl: Sort of Apr 25 09:46:19 hehe Apr 25 09:46:23 Give me another sec Apr 25 09:46:29 alphaone: sure. don't hurry Apr 25 09:46:37 * mickeyl planning his .tw itinary Apr 25 09:48:51 emulate the emulator? Apr 25 09:49:19 yea im emulating the emulator Apr 25 09:49:22 lol Apr 25 09:52:18 mickeyl: Okay, I think I got the point with the best reception in this room now. Apr 25 09:52:33 mickeyl: Guess what phone alphaone is using now... :) Apr 25 09:53:12 alphaone: Did I steal your opening joke now? Apr 25 09:54:41 stefan_schmidt: Nah Apr 25 09:55:04 Hi Magon Apr 25 09:55:23 excellent ;) Apr 25 09:55:34 ok, let me see Apr 25 09:55:40 * mickeyl trying ISDN conference call for the first time ever Apr 25 09:55:59 hehe Apr 25 09:59:38 hi Apr 25 09:59:38 I had bad day yesterday....going to finish survay about fingerwheel today and send Apr 25 10:01:26 alphaone: no go with that damn phone... (need to use a neo next time), calling you right after i finished with stefan_schmidt, ok? Apr 25 10:05:40 openmoko: 03laforge * r1829 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates_svn.bb: add patch to make openmoko-dates compile with recent mokoui change Apr 25 10:06:07 LaF0rge: what is your strategy on mirroring sourcecode? Apr 25 10:06:35 mickeyl: Okay Apr 25 10:09:48 openmoko: 03rob * r1830 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Apr 25 10:09:48 openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford Apr 25 10:09:48 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.c: (moko_scrolled_pane_pack), Apr 25 10:09:48 openmoko: (moko_scrolled_pane_unpack), (moko_scrolled_pane_get_child): Apr 25 10:09:48 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.h: Apr 25 10:09:49 openmoko: Improve the API for the MokoScrolledPane widget (see Bugzilla #512.) Apr 25 10:14:54 wogline_ not anymore present, but for end date actually added only 3 days (its uncertainty that got reduced, especially for lower limit ;-) Apr 25 10:19:32 mjr: sean's later email in reply to P1.5 query seemed to 'confirm' that WiFi talk is about P1.5 Apr 25 10:20:23 openmoko: 03laforge * r1831 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim/openmoko-dates_svn.bb: api change (paned window) has been merged mainline Apr 25 10:23:42 counter Apr 25 10:23:42 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 13:36:16 (19.567 +-3.5 days) (1011;179) Apr 25 10:24:00 aaaahhhrggg Apr 25 10:24:53 but +-3.5 days - looks like there was an announcement that didn't make it to the announce list? Apr 25 10:27:46 i've seen a blog entry somewhere Apr 25 10:28:04 i just found it in the announce archive,too Apr 25 10:31:33 No-one has tried the nokia bl-6c battery yet? Apr 25 10:37:02 Rakshasa: bl-5c yes (3rdparty one) Apr 25 10:37:06 Rakshasa: it's only been suggested so far, not read of anyone actually trying Apr 25 10:37:12 bl-6c not yet Apr 25 10:37:12 alphaone: ok, call w/ stefan finished. I'm going to get a newspaper and then call you in 15 minutes. Apr 25 10:37:26 mickeyl: Okay Apr 25 10:37:30 6c is too big or is it? Apr 25 10:38:38 Well, it's said that neo's battery is a bit bigger (thicker) than bl-5c. So is bl-6c, so I thought it would be even better than bl-5c. Apr 25 10:39:04 Rakshasa: bl-5c fits ok in neo Apr 25 10:39:34 Rakshasa: and both (fic and 3rdparty bl-5c) fits in my 3rdparty charger for bl-5c Apr 25 10:40:54 Well, i'll try it myself when I get a Neo, if no-one else does before. They only cost 16 euros each. Apr 25 10:42:02 hrw: what's the model of the charger? I'd like to find one too. The nokia dt-14 sounds a bit expensive. Apr 25 10:43:23 http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/04/18/3rdparty-chargers-for-neo1973/ Apr 25 10:43:26 totally noname Apr 25 10:44:20 bl-6c is reported to fit in almost all nokia phones using bl-5c. Only a bit of filing needed in some cases. Apr 25 10:46:44 Seems a bit hard to find noname chargers anywhere here. =P Apr 25 10:48:22 I'd guess they're not keen on making it easy to source them ;) Apr 25 10:49:53 Yeah, they're prolly just some untested, unbranded nokias, sonys etcetra. =P Who'd buy the branded ones anymore. Apr 25 10:52:15 Rakshasa: ebay? Apr 25 10:53:08 hrw: I'm a bit hesitant on buying anything from ebay what with not having a credit card and all. Apr 25 10:54:25 alphaone: *ring* Apr 25 10:54:44 mickeyl: Hmm Apr 25 10:55:05 mickeyl: libgsmd-tool is not saying anything :-( Apr 25 10:55:49 counter Apr 25 10:55:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 13:04:08 (19.545 +-3.5 days) (1012;179) Apr 25 10:56:16 these delays are killing me! Apr 25 10:59:55 openmoko: 03rob * r1832 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: Fix build problems with new API. Apr 25 11:02:24 openmoko: 03rob * r1833 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Apr 25 11:02:24 openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford Apr 25 11:02:24 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.c: Apr 25 11:02:24 openmoko: (moko_scrolled_pane_pack_with_viewport): Apr 25 11:02:24 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.h: Apr 25 11:02:26 openmoko: Add a moko_scrolled_pane_pack_with_viewport function. Apr 25 11:11:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Arthur_Dent]] Apr 25 11:19:16 cheesy: us too Apr 25 11:20:26 Killing me, killing you, killing all we have... Apr 25 11:20:42 wb woglinde Apr 25 11:27:07 openmoko: 03thomas * r1834 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (14 files): Apr 25 11:27:07 openmoko: * Use glib style name for application data struct typedef Apr 25 11:27:07 openmoko: ("s/MOKO_DIALER_APP_DATA/MokoDialerData/g") Apr 25 11:27:53 quitte: actually end data in counter moved only 3 days ;-) Apr 25 11:32:35 (for cheesy above was for cheesy too) Apr 25 11:33:31 counter_msg http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) Apr 25 11:33:31 aloril changed counter prefix message to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) Apr 25 11:33:37 (just added article) Apr 25 11:34:24 thanks aloril, but people are waiting since January... Apr 25 11:34:26 * aloril is happy to see that uncertainty has been reduced Apr 25 11:34:41 cheesy: yeah, that includes me too Apr 25 11:34:50 ok :) Apr 25 11:35:45 but its okay Apr 25 11:36:13 other products never hit ther market Apr 25 11:36:20 my phone broke and i lend one and told the owner i will get a new phone in february(and thought i calculated possible delays Apr 25 11:36:22 anyway, announcement sounded promising: testing identified only one issue which they have fixed Apr 25 11:36:32 counter Apr 25 11:36:32 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 12:23:26 (19.516 +-3.5 days) (1013;179) Apr 25 11:36:32 cheesy *g* Apr 25 11:36:43 my phone is broken too Apr 25 11:36:54 woglinde: well it will hit the market :} Apr 25 11:37:02 zecke my broken phone? Apr 25 11:37:10 except it sounded that if there is a big demand, not all might get it May Apr 25 11:37:13 I can hit you with it Apr 25 11:37:14 woglinde: other phones Apr 25 11:38:49 hm I should mesaure the payload of diffrent jvm's Apr 25 11:39:53 definitely Apr 25 11:40:46 http://c1.complang.tuwien.ac.at/cacaowiki/Nokia770Howto Apr 25 11:40:48 hm Apr 25 11:41:02 9 mb for classpath Apr 25 11:51:04 woglinde: gcj is all you need Apr 25 11:51:43 balrog-kun: great work regarding usb gadget emulation! Apr 25 11:52:12 zecke if you say Apr 25 11:52:17 cacao-cldc implementation could be heavily reduced. Apr 25 11:52:22 jserv2: he is a master ;) Apr 25 11:53:48 okay I am off for fpga programming Apr 25 11:55:18 mhh you dont need most of classpath on a phone now do you Apr 25 11:55:57 as long as it isn't a crippled one Apr 25 11:59:21 j2me is crippled by design Apr 25 12:01:01 * hrw want j2me Apr 25 12:02:43 Yes that would be pretty nice to have... Apr 25 12:06:42 it's nice that at least the CLI bits work Apr 25 12:07:05 the GUI bindings shouldn't be too onerous as GTK is already supported on the full GNU Classpath Apr 25 12:13:02 i agree j2me would be nice Apr 25 12:13:14 full j2se even nicer Apr 25 12:13:30 (j2me gui toolkit is a PoS) Apr 25 12:13:31 buz: full j2se is likely to be there first Apr 25 12:13:35 and 512M card for swap? Apr 25 12:13:46 Stephmw: i thought j2me was completely open source already? Apr 25 12:13:54 * hrw hates java for its sick memory usage Apr 25 12:14:02 buz: no GUI bindings for openmoko Apr 25 12:14:21 hrw: doesn't apply to j2me Apr 25 12:14:42 Stephmw: but to j2se Apr 25 12:14:56 hrw: which can be mitigated with good development Apr 25 12:15:22 Stephmw: maybe. most of java apps which I used sucked most of system memory Apr 25 12:15:47 hrw: I agree, most do. They're all written from the same perspective as current PC games... Apr 25 12:15:56 hrw: "who cares about memory?" Apr 25 12:16:05 hrw: which is frankly stupid and inconsiderate Apr 25 12:16:18 and I have only 2.1G ram Apr 25 12:16:24 haha Apr 25 12:16:27 however, it's often not very wrong Apr 25 12:16:35 most java apps arent running all day side to side to other apps Apr 25 12:16:48 it's still a bad attitude Apr 25 12:16:53 poor forward-thinking Apr 25 12:17:08 i think java just allocates as much memory as it gets Apr 25 12:17:17 its not like the apps wont run on 512mb Apr 25 12:17:34 buz: jedit/eclipse/azureus are apps which usually are used with other apps Apr 25 12:17:45 buz: the problem is the defaults for the VM Apr 25 12:17:47 i didnt find eclipse THAT bad Apr 25 12:17:59 buz: you can easily set up a fairly comprehensive GUI app with under 32mb usage Apr 25 12:18:09 i know Apr 25 12:18:26 heck i even done some small scale monte carlo stuff in j2se Apr 25 12:18:31 eclipse defaults to 256mb... Apr 25 12:18:41 rather than leaving it up to the VM to decide Apr 25 12:18:47 which imho isn't all that crazy for a IDE Apr 25 12:18:59 granted, but it should just grow as needed Apr 25 12:19:21 and address the performance impact of extra memory allocation with better architecture Apr 25 12:19:25 *ahem* Apr 25 12:19:34 anyway... j2me is more appropriate to a phone :) Apr 25 12:19:37 eclipse has grown humongous Apr 25 12:19:49 and frankly, it didnt help the app Apr 25 12:20:00 it's still missing basic features really Apr 25 12:20:22 buz, hrw: btw, you're both referring to CLDC/MIDP2 with regards to crappy GUI framework... CDC and PersonalProfile is more flexible Apr 25 12:20:28 it can cope with Swing for instance Apr 25 12:20:57 MIDP2 is what usually runs on phones Apr 25 12:21:07 and MIDP2 is already much saner than MIDP1.0 Apr 25 12:21:17 yeah, but it's not mutually exclusive to PP, thankfully Apr 25 12:21:47 yeah but if i bother with j2me, i want it running on many phones, not just a few select ones with PP Apr 25 12:22:15 then do what Opera do... roll your own widget set (or use J2MEPolish) Apr 25 12:22:31 or dont code for j2me at all Apr 25 12:22:49 our experience of MIDP2 usage is that few developers bother with the 'native' implementation Apr 25 12:22:50 (to be fair, these days i dont code much of anything) Apr 25 12:23:11 they all just bring up a Canvas and do their own stuff... including fonts Apr 25 12:23:18 cant really fault them Apr 25 12:23:23 neither can we :) Apr 25 12:23:36 it's a bitch to have to fix bugs in the native impl when we clearly can show it's not used much :) Apr 25 12:27:33 bwahahaha! it's alive, ALIVE! Apr 25 12:27:39 .. finally fixed my bug :) Apr 25 12:50:12 thanks jserv2 :) Apr 25 12:52:42 balrog-kun: by the way, could you provide some example usbnet scripts into qemu-neo1973 like the one in oh's poky? Apr 25 12:54:15 jserv2: i couldn't get usb-net with slirp to work reliably on my x86_64 pc, there must be some bugs Apr 25 12:54:42 ok Apr 25 12:55:11 the poky scripts were added by richard purdie, i haven't used them Apr 25 12:55:42 but it would be nice if we could ssh into emulated neo1973. :) Apr 25 12:56:04 then, I could develop openmoko applications on Win32. Apr 25 12:56:07 yes, i need to add BT and gadget usb support Apr 25 12:56:17 jserv2: ewwwwwwww Apr 25 12:56:29 why would you want to this :p Apr 25 12:56:40 asdadfögh Apr 25 12:56:46 balrog-kun: it is an option indeed. Apr 25 12:57:06 maybe MokoMakefile could have some scripts for the networking added Apr 25 12:57:17 as Apr 25 12:57:47 also, it would be easy to promote/demo openmoko to others living in Win32 world. :P Apr 25 12:58:01 * jserv2 did that to his boss. Apr 25 12:58:36 :) i'm not sure that they will want to "free their phone" Apr 25 12:58:42 they will just appreciate the graphics Apr 25 12:58:47 sure! Apr 25 12:59:10 at least "playable" Apr 25 13:03:10 * balrog-kun thinks it may be better to not demo openmoko to those people while it's still in development Apr 25 13:03:23 it may make bad first impression Apr 25 13:03:37 yes Apr 25 13:06:22 it made a nice 'cool graphics' impression here Apr 25 13:07:06 can you set breakpoints on software running within the emulator from an IDE outside it? Apr 25 13:07:20 the graphics are nice, but i can't say anything good about stability or speed at the moment Apr 25 13:07:32 Stephmw: with kdevelop it may be possible Apr 25 13:07:41 kdevelop i think has some gdb frontend Apr 25 13:08:16 ideally, it should be possible to launch the emulator from within the IDE and break in one of the apps Apr 25 13:08:17 err, not on all software in the emulator Apr 25 13:08:24 without manual intervention on the emulator side Apr 25 13:08:28 only on the kernel/bootloader side Apr 25 13:08:37 ah, hmm Apr 25 13:08:48 maybe with some scripting help on the emulator side? Apr 25 13:09:19 i'm sure there are some methods to debug userspace applications too, but that's not so easy as with the kernel Apr 25 13:09:24 yes, some scripts may exist Apr 25 13:09:44 this would be equivalent to debugging programs with a hardware debugger Apr 25 13:10:07 (it's certainly possible) Apr 25 13:11:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Arthur_Dent]] Apr 25 13:12:43 balrog-kun: great Apr 25 13:13:09 balrog-kun: that would make it feature-complete with other emulation methods I've used in-house Apr 25 13:13:20 balrog-kun: and hence interesting replacements Apr 25 13:15:07 Stephmw: it wouldn't have any advantage over debugging programs with gdb/strace running inside qemu afact Apr 25 13:15:31 balrog-kun: the only advantage is lack of interaction needed on the emulator side Apr 25 13:15:39 balrog-kun: which makes it easier on the developer Apr 25 13:15:45 i guess you could even run entire kdevelop on openmoko Apr 25 13:16:33 * bhima contemplates something bizarre... Apr 25 13:17:00 * bhima wonders if remote SIM access could be initially started over bluetooth, but then proxied over GPRS. Apr 25 13:17:00 or perhaps the optimal thing to do if you don't want to compile the apps for x86, is running gdbserver on the target and gdb on the host Apr 25 13:17:14 balrog-kun: for timing-related bugs, it's much better to have as little of your debugging framework on the 'device' Apr 25 13:17:34 it would obviously be fragile. Apr 25 13:17:53 qemu is quite bad at helping debugging (or sometimes at even reproducing) timing-related bugs Apr 25 13:19:13 * balrog-kun will bbl Apr 25 13:20:08 (the idea being, swapping phones without swapping SIM cards. If you only need intermittent and non-timing-critical SIM transactions, it could work) Apr 25 13:21:38 bhima: that sounds like a man-in-the-middle waiting to happen Apr 25 13:22:23 stephmw: There's an official bluetooth profile for remote SIM access already. :) Apr 25 13:23:22 are you sure that isnt simply to access address data on the sim? Apr 25 13:23:46 buz: Yes. It is explicitly for things like car phones. Apr 25 13:24:14 buz: In fact, standard AT command set foo has let you get the SIM card address data for decades. Apr 25 13:24:32 (well, for at least one decade in my experience. :) Apr 25 13:27:48 * bhima wants some way to figure out which PID is doing data transfer. Apr 25 13:32:20 openmoko: 03thomas * r1835 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/openmoko-dialer-window-incoming.c: * Convert files to UNIX format Apr 25 13:47:54 tag Apr 25 13:49:32 i would nearly say abend ;) Apr 25 13:49:46 moin Apr 25 13:54:29 Good morning. Apr 25 14:02:29 openmoko: 03thomas * r1836 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): * Remove spurious carriage returns Apr 25 14:10:56 openmoko: 03thomas * r1837 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (4 files): * Remove libgsmd event code Apr 25 14:27:49 openmoko: 03rob * r1838 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-omoko.c src/contacts-omoko.h): Apr 25 14:27:49 openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford Apr 25 14:27:49 openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.c: (create_main_window): Apr 25 14:27:49 openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.h: Apr 25 14:27:49 openmoko: Switch to using MokoScrolledPane rather than MokoDetailsWindow. Apr 25 14:27:50 openmoko: Pack the top navigation area into MokoScrolledPane. Apr 25 14:28:09 robster: yay! Apr 25 14:28:41 mickey_l: yeh, replacing all use of MokoDetailsWindow to MokoScrolledPane Apr 25 14:28:53 i think we might need to look at some size requesting Apr 25 14:28:55 robster: thanks. i'm going to catch up all other apps this nite as well Apr 25 14:29:13 mickey_l: i'm doing all ours, i can do the ones in applications/ too. Apr 25 14:29:23 Anyone can buy for $350 starting around mid May. mid may! Apr 25 14:29:24 robster: oh thanks, that'd be a relief Apr 25 14:29:29 mickey_l: no problem Apr 25 14:29:47 robster: re. size requesting. please use moko_paned_window_set_ratio for now Apr 25 14:31:23 if you take care of migrating the apps, I'm going to work on libmokogsmd tonite, so that you can start to use it in dialer and today Apr 25 14:37:49 but before this happens, i need to utilize the sun while i can... Apr 25 14:38:14 parag0n_: I'll see when I can order Apr 25 14:43:00 mickey|bbiab: there just need to be a sensible default ratio, e.g. 1:1 Apr 25 14:44:19 robster: right. let's do this in moko_paned_window, when two panes are added Apr 25 14:45:13 i'll do this in a couple of hours Apr 25 14:45:33 because this also belongs to the things that ideally are saved as state per app Apr 25 14:45:39 s/ideally/eventually/ Apr 25 14:45:39 mickey|bbiab meant: because this also belongs to the things that eventually are saved as state per app Apr 25 14:45:51 btw. Apr 25 14:46:01 i'd also like to see contacts and dates using MokoTreeView Apr 25 14:46:05 instead of GtkTreeView directly Apr 25 14:46:12 since MokoTreeView will gain some more specifics eveutally Apr 25 14:46:20 i wouldnt mind waiting for it, if they'd just let me pre order Apr 25 14:46:36 i'm not very goood at holding onto money for a long period of time ;) Apr 25 14:48:44 heh Apr 25 15:05:20 counter? Apr 25 15:05:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 5 days 08:54:37 (19.371 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 6 days (143.871 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1014;179) Apr 25 15:07:32 gtg cu Apr 25 15:13:20 counter Apr 25 15:13:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 08:46:37 (19.366 +-3.5 days) (1015;179) Apr 25 15:40:45 openmoko: 03rob * r1839 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-paned-window.c): (log message trimmed) Apr 25 15:40:45 openmoko: 2007-04-25 Rob Bradford Apr 25 15:40:45 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-paned-window.c: (moko_paned_window_init), Apr 25 15:40:45 openmoko: (moko_paned_window_set_ratio): Apr 25 15:40:45 openmoko: Improve the moko_paned_window_set_ratio function. It's just the ratio Apr 25 15:40:48 openmoko: of the top half (including menu area and toolbox) to the bottom half. Apr 25 15:40:51 openmoko: No need to be try and be clever about considering the menu and toolbox Apr 25 15:48:17 counter Apr 25 15:48:17 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 08:11:41 (19.341 +-3.5 days) (1016;179) Apr 25 15:55:09 hehe got pushed back again? Apr 25 15:59:08 openmoko: 03thomas * r1840 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (6 files): Apr 25 15:59:08 openmoko: * Add callbacks skeleton for MokoGsmdConnection Apr 25 15:59:08 openmoko: * Remove final libgsmd code Apr 25 15:59:23 SrRaven: check the link Apr 25 15:59:31 might be the final pushback, as I understood it Apr 25 16:05:28 350 dollars isn't that much, at least with the currencies like this and having euros Apr 25 16:06:11 yeah, $350 is only 175GBP.. Apr 25 16:06:22 So, where will we be able to come collect? Apr 25 16:07:16 ~250 euros Apr 25 16:07:48 ~change 350 usd to eur Apr 25 16:07:55 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 256.411 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Apr 25 16:09:47 the shipping might cost around 30 euros so we're around 300 euros Apr 25 16:10:15 ~change 350 usd into gbp Apr 25 16:10:20 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 174.635 Pound (GBP) (from http://www.xe.com/) Apr 25 16:10:40 Hrm... dollar still weak then. Apr 25 16:10:53 i wonder for what money the other cell phone makers would be able to sell their phones if they were operating like fic is right now Apr 25 16:11:22 how do you mean? Apr 25 16:11:35 Maulkin: yeah, weakest for a long time. Apr 25 16:13:10 in the sense that fic isn't probably spending much on marketing and all that stuff Apr 25 16:13:20 oh, right. Apr 25 16:13:29 so this 350 dollars is basically hardware + software Apr 25 16:13:41 right, there's not a huge margin Apr 25 16:13:46 and not as much the software either Apr 25 16:13:53 or the QA Apr 25 16:13:58 that too Apr 25 16:13:58 * Maulkin spent more than that on his A780 :) Apr 25 16:14:07 damn me, the QA here takes forever :( Apr 25 16:14:29 Stephmw: write a small script that fakes the unit tests? :) Apr 25 16:14:29 Maulkin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 25 16:14:48 ... Apr 25 16:14:50 That was odd. Apr 25 16:15:45 Maulkin: hah. I'd get drawn and quartered for something like that... the peer review is a big aspect Apr 25 16:16:02 Maulkin: everything gets tagged with who did what and when ;) Apr 25 16:16:23 Stephmw: Aww. Where's the fun in that? :) Apr 25 16:17:04 Maulkin: well, a direct benefit is that you only get the really, really funky errors back into R&D to fix... the mundane ones all got fixed at the QA stage Apr 25 16:17:27 Maulkin: 3 weeks of work for 1-liner fixes is amusing... not. Apr 25 16:17:28 Stephmw: No "It doesn't work" then? :) Apr 25 16:18:00 Maulkin: not _anymore_ ./me looks at the long row of handless testers who dared Apr 25 16:20:54 Maulkin: we now get the... 'I added 500 text fields, moved the selection around for 15mins, waited 8hrs...brayed at the moon... and now it doesn't refresh the screen..." Apr 25 16:21:02 :) Apr 25 16:21:06 Maulkin: you get the idea... it's the really tiny 1% of corner cases Apr 25 16:24:23 guaqua, if other companies were not marketing, they would have lot less sales and the r&d costs / sold unit would skyrocket, i.e. devices would cost much more Apr 25 16:26:36 i was actually only thinking about the actual hardware costs. the law of supply and demand is a whole another ballgame Apr 25 16:31:49 guaqua, well, you can't really separate them, you have to get the money lost to development of the hw back from somewhere Apr 25 16:32:17 guaqua, sure they could drop the hw prices, if they _stopped_ marketing Apr 25 16:32:27 guaqua, but I thinkg that's a bit unfair Apr 25 16:33:29 did i say i was separating them? Apr 25 16:35:18 Well, kind of ;) Apr 25 16:35:40 Nevermind, I don't understand the subject too well anyway. Apr 25 16:35:53 I'll let the managers do their s**t, I'll keep to sw development ; Apr 25 16:35:55 +) Apr 25 16:37:30 i get your point. it's the hardware costs and the actual production prices i was interested in, not in the workings of the market Apr 25 16:40:58 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch Apr 25 17:13:09 Is finally known, what all these hardware issues have been? Apr 25 17:13:22 ... to the public, I mean. Apr 25 17:14:39 Sean made a post to the announce list, yes. Apr 25 17:15:05 Well the current problem is a shortage of the displays. Apr 25 17:16:02 abraxa__, high-rez - I meant a) the old issue which delayed everything b) the 50 problematic phones he mentions in the new posting. Apr 25 17:16:29 .. Hmm, or did I miss a posting... *checking* Apr 25 17:17:18 Elrond: I think there was some interrupt problem, and a jtag issue, but I'm not sure. Apr 25 17:18:26 high-rez - Ahh. At least some hints. :) Apr 25 17:34:07 * ks-[AWAY_WORK] is back. Apr 25 17:57:04 do any of you have some tutorial or documentation for X-properties? Apr 25 17:57:17 i simply have no idea what exactly it is Apr 25 18:04:36 cu Apr 25 18:07:51 http://www.neochroma.com/ Apr 25 18:08:05 That and a bt keyboard.. XP Apr 25 18:18:09 Rakshasa: isn't that just like using a magnifying glass? Apr 25 18:54:03 counter Apr 25 18:54:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 05:05:55 (19.212 +-3.5 days) (1017;180) Apr 25 18:55:29 boo:( mid may is faar away, when exams start; I won't be able to play with it at all until start of july:( Apr 25 18:56:04 motivation to finish exams sooner, though :-) Apr 25 19:08:55 counter Apr 25 19:08:55 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 04:51:03 (19.202 +-3.5 days) (1018;180) Apr 25 19:13:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] Apr 25 19:15:18 * balrog-kun was not a great fan of the WiFi support but now runs to see what was changed pushed by the social pressure Apr 25 19:16:58 * buz still thinks its a must have feature Apr 25 19:17:04 finally a sane wifi voip phone Apr 25 19:27:40 buz: define sane :) Apr 25 19:28:08 buz: Personally, I'll be still missing the kbd, OTOH, we'll be able to add input methods I guess, so one can use one the more advanced ones. Apr 25 21:12:57 counter Apr 25 21:12:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 5 days 02:47:00 (19.116 +-3.5 days) (1019;180) Apr 25 21:47:22 does anyone know if the layered images for the UI mockups are available for download anywhere? Apr 25 21:47:32 haven't had much luck searching the wiki for them Apr 25 21:50:33 I've not heard of them being available Apr 25 21:50:46 what are you trying to do? Apr 25 21:52:06 Stephmw: hoping to do some test implementations of a couple applications using the EFL Apr 25 21:53:32 RbdPngn: you may have to use the emulated environments in that case, have you run the qemu emulator yet? Apr 25 21:55:16 yeah, had some issues the other day, but the recent partition changes seemed to ahve resolved them Apr 25 21:57:09 great ;) Apr 25 21:57:44 one thing I've found between mockups->prototypes is that designers quickly don't keep the images up to date and just use screengrabs from that point on for polishing Apr 25 21:58:06 the images served their purpose a while back and now it's easier to tweak the implementations Apr 25 21:59:04 good point, I'll dig through the source and see what I can find for images in there or the theme Apr 25 21:59:09 thanks Apr 25 22:03:47 i thought applications were not supposed to use EFL directly, Apr 25 22:04:37 as i understand it the openmoko libs will use EFL as the backend instead of GTK+ so that it really doesn't matter whether clutter or EFL is chosen Apr 25 22:05:57 balrog-kun: that may be the case, but there would need to be some layer implemented between Apr 25 22:06:28 balrog-kun: implementing an app or two seems like a reasonable way to get a sense of the requirements to interface the layers Apr 25 22:08:26 i wouldn't like the implementation to be tied to EFL Apr 25 22:12:36 the current implementations are fairly tied to GTK+, so a direct port would be tied to the target lib Apr 25 22:13:58 is there a UI abstraction layer in the works? Apr 25 22:14:44 not that i know Apr 25 22:17:38 bbl Apr 25 22:33:24 hi Apr 25 23:39:18 /join #neuros **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 26 02:59:57 2007