**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 27 02:59:57 2007 Apr 27 03:31:45 (script) planet: Marcin "hrw" Juszkiewicz: OpenZaurus time is over - long live Angstrom http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/04/26/openzaurus-time-is-over-long-live-angstrom/ Apr 27 04:54:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Reader]] Apr 27 05:27:44 counter Apr 27 05:27:45 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 18:32:13 (17.772 +-3.5 days) (1028;183) Apr 27 05:32:25 counter Apr 27 05:32:25 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 18:27:33 (17.769 +-3.5 days) (1029;183) Apr 27 05:53:46 koen, http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9425962034.html Apr 27 05:54:28 your article is up there ;-) Apr 27 06:28:17 mornin' Apr 27 06:29:51 boingboing Apr 27 07:18:05 good morning Apr 27 07:20:41 good morning Apr 27 07:35:03 counter? Apr 27 07:35:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 3 days 16:24:55 (17.684 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 5 days (142.184 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1030;183) Apr 27 07:40:08 if the AUX button calls 911 then what happens if u accidently hit it Apr 27 07:43:08 It doesn't. Apr 27 07:43:13 At least not directly. Apr 27 07:47:03 what does it do then Apr 27 07:49:33 Context dependant AIUI. Apr 27 08:12:22 what is AIUI Apr 27 08:14:39 heya Apr 27 08:18:15 calling 911 here doesnt do much :) Apr 27 08:19:09 As I Understand It Apr 27 08:19:35 Some regions redirect other places emergency numbers to the local one. Apr 27 08:21:36 yea. one would guess there would be some signal in the gsm system to "call the emerg number" Apr 27 08:21:57 Bastard UK operators don't actually let you call it without a UK sim. Apr 27 08:22:12 112 is the international standard, which all telcos are supposed to provide regardless of the phone's status. '000' still works in Australia, although that's internally switched by each provider. Apr 27 08:22:19 112 is used here Apr 27 08:22:29 we had 000 before here too Apr 27 08:23:00 SpeedEvil: thats is so untrue Apr 27 08:23:02 the US is on its own parallel universe here, as in many other things :) Apr 27 08:23:17 XorA: What's so untrue? Apr 27 08:23:33 Err - not UK SIM - valid SIM. Apr 27 08:23:34 SpeedEvil: that you cant dial GSM emergency on a phone without a SIM due to operators Apr 27 08:23:45 And you certainly can't in the UK. Apr 27 08:23:55 SpeedEvil: erm, wrong!!!!! Apr 27 08:24:06 Well - you can dial it, you get 'no service' though. Apr 27 08:24:26 have you tried, or is this urban legend? Apr 27 08:24:58 my phone without a SIM comes up No SIM emergency only Apr 27 08:25:05 * chreekat is a sad american traveler... has to remember 911 *and* 112... probably not helpful in the case of a real emergency Apr 27 08:25:07 It comes up that. Apr 27 08:25:13 Actually dialing however, does not work. Apr 27 08:26:20 Just tried it. Apr 27 08:26:26 No network coverage. Apr 27 08:26:33 And there is. Apr 27 08:28:36 Another thing different about 112 (from the 000 here) is that any carrier will pick it up, irregardless of who your mobile is locked too. Apr 27 08:28:49 Not here :( Apr 27 08:29:34 * XorA gets fedup of dialing 999/112 on stupid phones anyway Apr 27 08:31:07 Just hope that I get enough money together again for the neo when it finally gets to be purchasable. Apr 27 08:31:16 Annoyingly spent it. Apr 27 08:32:06 Ah, Wikipedia mentions 112 is the standard only for GSM. Apr 27 08:33:28 many landlines already supports 112 too Apr 27 08:34:00 Which lead to a moderate rise in false calls from faulty lines. Apr 27 08:34:33 As if the line is occasionally shorting, it's much more likely to short once, once, twice, than 9 times, gap, 9 times, gap, 9 times Apr 27 08:34:41 (in the UK that is) Apr 27 08:36:30 it was 112 in sweden Apr 27 08:58:25 * rwhitby returns from holidays Apr 27 09:15:25 * ewon does the last-day-in-old-job shuffle Apr 27 09:15:42 ewon: piss in the coffee :-) Apr 27 09:15:50 hah :) Apr 27 09:15:55 we have to pay for the coffee Apr 27 09:16:00 crappy machine coffee Apr 27 09:16:06 one of many reasons I'm moving on Apr 27 09:16:17 your last day task, crack the coffee machine :-) Apr 27 09:16:30 I spotted a serial port on the back, I could do that Apr 27 09:16:37 once one of my last day tasks was tell everyone how I got round GEC marconi internet security :-) Apr 27 09:16:44 hah :) Apr 27 09:16:58 I've already broke the "campus speed limit" Apr 27 09:17:03 supposed to be 40kph Apr 27 09:17:32 clocked 126kph this morning :) Apr 27 09:19:38 ewon: wicked Apr 27 09:19:44 morning Apr 27 09:20:19 hi Mac Apr 27 09:31:03 any MokoMakefile problems ? Apr 27 09:31:29 hrw: Just read the OZ / Angstrom announcement. Looks like Koen has gets all the stress now :D Apr 27 09:32:04 rwhitby: only the usual svn breakage Apr 27 09:32:24 TRIsoft: not quite as we need to organize OZ -> Angstrom move of developers, wiki content etc Apr 27 09:33:07 hrw: Pretty big step with tons of work... Apr 27 09:35:35 but good that it is decided Apr 27 09:36:51 hrw: Yes, even if it's hard for a lot of people. This kind of decisions is always a pain. Apr 27 09:38:47 it was hard to write that text yesterday. then removal of OZ from OE Apr 27 09:39:23 everything evolves ;) Apr 27 09:39:39 although, having been there at OZ's birth, it brought a tear to my eye Apr 27 09:39:43 (kidding) Apr 27 09:40:20 back then it was a way to improve what sharp had given Apr 27 10:09:30 http://blackmesaeast.com.pl/2007/04/27/debuging-sarge-with-openmoko-debug-board/ Apr 27 10:13:41 hrw cool. i hoped that other projects adapt the jtags for other board usage Apr 27 11:09:57 openmoko: 03mickey * r1855 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): libmokogsmd: add minimal API to deal with voice calls Apr 27 11:10:15 openmoko: 03mickey * r1856 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-gsmd-demo/src/demo-main.c: openmoko-gsmd-demo: can receive/initiate calls now Apr 27 11:13:26 mickeyl: is sean using mokomakefile himself, or using it to set up machines for other people? Apr 27 11:13:54 rwhitby: iirc he's teaching other people to use it Apr 27 11:22:30 hi Apr 27 11:22:50 openmoko: 03thomas * r1857 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (12 files): * dialer: remove history code to be replaced with libmokojournal Apr 27 11:57:03 hello, are you modifying kernel in oe environment? Apr 27 12:44:07 openmoko: 03mickey * r1858 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokogsmd/ (moko-gsmd-connection.c moko-gsmd-connection.h): libmokogsmd: add delegate for lgsm_voice_dtmf Apr 27 12:58:24 hi. curious about emulation environments for developing code - are there any yet? Apr 27 12:58:24 tonyg: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 27 12:58:31 heh Apr 27 13:02:32 tonyg: there's qemu Apr 27 13:03:00 tonyg: you don't need an emulator to develop code for openmoko Apr 27 13:04:05 cool. Thank you. I meant more perhaps a "distribution". Somewhere I can link against the core libs and know my code will run OK on the hardware Apr 27 13:04:09 I'll rtfaq :) Apr 27 13:04:56 have people considered getting squeak smalltalk compiled up for it? (almost certainly they have...?) Apr 27 13:09:10 if your code runs OK in qemu it will probably run OK on the hardware Apr 27 13:09:12 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Apr 27 13:10:10 balrog-kun, thank you. Squeak has been ported to many, many linux variants, as well as windows CE previously, so it ought to be okay. Apr 27 13:12:48 tonyg: yes, i think it should run Apr 27 13:13:25 oddly, the FAQ seems not to mention wireless/802.11 Apr 27 13:14:09 tonyg: because phone lack it? Apr 27 13:14:25 hrw, I would have expected "does the phone support 802.11?" to be a FAQ :-) Apr 27 13:15:12 usb hub + usb wifi Apr 27 13:15:26 so yes, it does Apr 27 13:15:34 "when will WiFi support be added" is more of a FAQ at the moment Apr 27 13:16:08 ok, that's fair Apr 27 13:16:15 i'm guessing it's a couple iterations off? Apr 27 13:18:55 * mjr has the impression that they're still trying for the mass-market release, but not sure. Apr 27 13:19:00 At least a suitable chipset was found. Apr 27 13:19:06 mjr, that's excellent news Apr 27 13:20:18 I think they've promised more details on the anticipated mass-market release specs when p1 sales start. Apr 27 13:21:36 While I would like to be developing for the platform, I'm not sure a dev kit is necessary - I'll be only doing application-level stuff, so perhaps the hardware is secondary and I can survive with qemu... Apr 27 13:21:48 until mass-market release :) Apr 27 13:21:57 so maybe a more definite statement soon. Sean said on Wednesday that they're almost for sure going to have AR6K wifi in their "next product", but it was ambiguous if he meant the mass market release or something after that Apr 27 13:22:07 * tonyg nods Apr 27 13:22:11 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F tonyg: Apr 27 13:22:19 SpeedEvil, thanks Apr 27 13:22:36 coding in smalltalk you can survive even without qemu Apr 27 13:22:41 indeed :) Apr 27 13:22:50 mjr: their next product is the summer upgrade in my view Apr 27 13:22:52 so there's a couple of layers: getting a suitable vm running, and preparing a suitable image Apr 27 13:22:56 C can also be assumed to be portable if you're only doing application level stuff Apr 27 13:22:56 which basically is what should ship for mass market Apr 27 13:23:09 so as i understand it, there will most likely be wifi Apr 27 13:23:23 If you've got a sort-of-compatible touchscreen, then you don't really need any dev environment. Apr 27 13:23:34 You just develop normal X apps pretty much. Apr 27 13:23:36 yep. Apr 27 13:23:39 buz, yes, it's a reasonable interpretation, I'm just trying not to raise hopes :] Apr 27 13:23:52 even a tablet would do Apr 27 13:24:03 well if the summer upgrade doesnt have wifi i might as well buy p1 ;) Apr 27 13:24:19 I'd just need to make absolutely sure that the VM ran at an acceptable speed without any showstoppers before committing to too much image-level development Apr 27 13:24:41 I've been disappointed before (*cough* Palm T3 *cough*) Apr 27 13:24:54 A normal computer/mouse even, if you back off a bit, and accept that you may need to tweak the UI. Apr 27 13:24:54 * mjr wonders how sure the summer upgrade is to be a summer upgrade at this point Apr 27 13:25:05 (i might do that anyway, depends on the discount really ;) Apr 27 13:25:36 well in some people's view even september is summer ;) Apr 27 13:25:51 and august is summer for sure Apr 27 13:25:53 SpeedEvil, the whole squeak ui would probably need gutting and replacing anyway. it's had a very chequered past and a BurnTheDiskPacks approach is probably needed here Apr 27 13:26:00 Palm T3 is faster processor clocking-wise, but has less RAM and this can often be the bottleneck Apr 27 13:26:07 if they want to release mass market 9/11 then they need the upgrade done in august the latest Apr 27 13:26:15 TT3 still has more RAM than any othe Palm Inc. model Apr 27 13:26:27 buz, *nod*, summer is flexible :] Apr 27 13:26:41 i dont believe the original june timeframe myself Apr 27 13:26:41 balrog-kun, yes it would have been great, it's just palmOS is a horrible nasty platform to code for if you're used to unix development... Apr 27 13:26:50 in fact, i kinda hope it will be july Apr 27 13:26:52 well, I had trouble anyway Apr 27 13:26:53 it's already mostly summer here the P1.5 is going to be a summer release Apr 27 13:26:55 i have exams in june ;) Apr 27 13:27:11 (the last ones hopefully) Apr 27 13:27:25 tonyg: Linux runs on T|T3 Apr 27 13:27:48 provided they can ship the P1.5 before the summer ends :) Apr 27 13:27:55 i wish it ran on T5. Apr 27 13:28:15 thresh: there's a port for T5 too, but at a much less advanced level Apr 27 13:28:16 thresh: what a problem? Apr 27 13:28:37 Last time i checked the site, it was a real mess getting it to boot. Apr 27 13:28:45 the cpu upgrade for p1.5 shouldnt be that hard Apr 27 13:28:47 but wifi might Apr 27 13:28:48 it was like 6 months ago, though Apr 27 13:28:54 it's always going to be a mess i'm afraid, for all Palm models Apr 27 13:29:00 but it's lots of fun Apr 27 13:29:05 ;) Apr 27 13:46:51 !topice Apr 27 13:47:04 counter? Apr 27 13:47:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 3 days 10:12:53 (17.426 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 4 days (141.926 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1031;183) Apr 27 13:50:56 are the kernel 2.6.21 dynticks/tickless features also for ARM? And if so, do they indeed save power? Apr 27 13:51:50 Kero: dyntick for arm has been in for 2.6.16 or so Apr 27 13:52:00 it was written for arm to start with Apr 27 13:52:23 (shows how x86 centric reports are) Apr 27 13:53:07 reports always are. developments are often x86 centric, too (even though it's a not-so-nice architecture) Apr 27 13:53:43 * Kero feels slightly stupid for not looking up the dynticks-for-arm before asking :) Apr 27 13:53:46 I think dyntick was in 2.6.12 in the linux-omap tree Apr 27 13:54:01 nokia developed it for them 770 tablet Apr 27 13:54:08 their* Apr 27 13:55:26 ok; I guess it saves power, then :) out of curiosity, any estimate on how much? Apr 27 13:56:10 so much that they didn't bother implementing suspend for the 770 and 800 Apr 27 13:56:58 oh so i might finally reach windows runtime with my laptop? Apr 27 13:57:16 buz: doubtfull Apr 27 13:57:17 Dynticks only saves power if your CPU is low power use in idle. Apr 27 13:57:35 Unfortunately, the neo processor doesn't use much less. Apr 27 13:57:41 windows underclocks and undervolts the cpu quite agressively Apr 27 13:57:45 koen: yeah especially because i use encrypted disks ;) Apr 27 13:58:05 oh you can tune that in linux Apr 27 13:58:27 buz: sure, but it'd be nice to have a sane default :) Apr 27 13:58:42 well with powersaved its not that hard Apr 27 13:58:48 it just doesnt seem to help that much Apr 27 13:59:03 part of the reason is probably that linux swaps way too much Apr 27 13:59:09 hd practically never spins down Apr 27 13:59:24 * koen has disabled swap on various machines Apr 27 13:59:35 you cant do suspend to disk without swap :( Apr 27 13:59:48 well not without suspend2 which brings its own slew of issues Apr 27 14:01:06 oh, wait, you use x86 Apr 27 14:01:14 it's wonder that can suspend at all ;) Apr 27 14:01:25 a mobile phone shouldn't suspend anyway :) and I'm not sure the boot sequence of my laptop is faster than the wakeup sequence Apr 27 14:01:34 *slower Apr 27 14:01:38 mine is Apr 27 14:02:04 Kero: suspend to RAM is almost instant Apr 27 14:02:09 plus it means i cant really restart work where i left off Apr 27 14:02:12 the olpc can now resume in 100ms Apr 27 14:02:21 still ten times slower as arm Apr 27 14:02:27 XorA: my laptop sucks oodles of power in suspend to ram Apr 27 14:02:35 but better as the ~minutes for multi GHz laptops Apr 27 14:02:42 XorA: my laptop never managed to suspend to RAM. Apr 27 14:02:49 a full battery doesnt last over 48h i'd say Apr 27 14:03:01 Kero: but arm devices do it all the time and battery lasts at least 4 weeks on my zaurus Apr 27 14:03:13 ~2 weeks with suspend to ram on my powerbook Apr 27 14:03:23 yeah powerbooks can do it much longer than my toshiba Apr 27 14:03:25 not sure why, really Apr 27 14:03:47 maybe toshiba's battery calculator is broken Apr 27 14:03:49 XorA: cool. my iPAQ managed 2 weeks, in the end, iirc. Apr 27 14:04:07 i wonder how long the T60 will last Apr 27 14:04:15 (if/as/when i finally get it) Apr 27 14:04:19 that pesky gsm chip in the Neo will make it last a lot shorter, I fear? Apr 27 14:04:25 Why? Apr 27 14:04:31 Well, yes, if you turn it on. Apr 27 14:04:35 You don't _have_ to. Apr 27 14:04:41 arm7 is pretty frugal Apr 27 14:04:49 well if you want a PHONE you HAVE to Apr 27 14:04:51 and gsm in powersave isn't too bad either Apr 27 14:04:55 :) Apr 27 14:05:10 It's probably on the order of a week on GSM alone. Apr 27 14:05:12 if you only care for the PDA, well you can turn it off Apr 27 14:05:14 SpeedEvil: I want to switch it off when I don't want to be reachable, certainly :) Apr 27 14:05:39 a week is pretty good. Apr 27 14:05:48 for a smartphone yes Apr 27 14:05:52 for a normal cellphone it's pretty bad Apr 27 14:06:02 my current cellphone started at a week :) Apr 27 14:06:05 On the order of. Apr 27 14:06:08 right now it's horrible. Apr 27 14:06:15 (battery dying) Apr 27 14:06:23 So, 2-21 days Apr 27 14:06:24 (so yes, I want my Neo :) Apr 27 14:07:36 If you just wake up to poll an answering machine for calls, or SMSs, it'll last _much_ longer. Apr 27 14:08:06 its also not terribly useful then Apr 27 14:08:10 * Kero will (automatically!) turn gsm off during the night, at meetings, when I practice aikido Apr 27 14:08:11 Dunno. Apr 27 14:08:32 Being contactable within 1/2 hour is probably quite acceptable in many cases. Apr 27 14:08:40 true Apr 27 14:09:09 Kero: Aha- you need an accellerometer for the last I guess :) Apr 27 14:09:11 well it means i get to PAY Apr 27 14:09:27 but, if you plan to code for hours and do graphics on the phone and dominate the world then you may run out of battery i'm afraid Apr 27 14:09:41 SpeedEvil: does the Neo have one? :) Apr 27 14:09:50 Not as stock. Apr 27 14:09:55 Pretty trivial to add though. Apr 27 14:10:37 * Kero would like some added not-too-expensive sensors Apr 27 14:10:50 * SpeedEvil should have patented 'detect 0G and it screams' before discussing it here. Apr 27 14:11:08 wtf? Apr 27 14:11:16 if the phone screams, you;d try to catch it before it hits the ground? Apr 27 14:11:33 or would you switch off GPS since you're in space? Apr 27 14:13:34 No - if it detects 0G - freefall - it screams. Apr 27 14:13:46 Before (possibly) smashing into lots of bits. Apr 27 14:13:58 Kero, of course not, silly, you'd assume outside GPS satellite orbits for calculations instead Apr 27 14:14:31 You can actually use GPS out to around the moon. Using the side-beams of satellites just coming over the horizon. Apr 27 14:14:35 it should rather start getting online and syncing all the data from the phone through GPRS before the data is lost forever Apr 27 14:14:36 You do need a 1-2m dish. Apr 27 14:14:41 detect zero G and outside GPS satelites, phone NASA for rescue Apr 27 14:15:20 balrog-kun: sync to microsd Apr 27 14:15:25 "Houston, we have a problem" Apr 27 14:15:25 those cards are quite resilient Apr 27 14:15:49 it should detect the height too Apr 27 14:15:52 proper encryption is what i want Apr 27 14:15:56 we need a variometer in the device Apr 27 14:15:59 gprs might give you 1 ping in that timeframe if you're very lucky Apr 27 14:16:06 guaqua: thats simple Apr 27 14:16:12 Naah. Accellerometer is just fine for this sort of app. Apr 27 14:16:13 dm-crypt is in the kernel Apr 27 14:16:19 buz: but also one of the most important things out there :) Apr 27 14:16:27 yeah i agree Apr 27 14:16:34 (detecting falling distance) Apr 27 14:16:59 Though radar distance sensors and airbags could work too. Apr 27 14:17:25 not really related to openmoko, but since the developers use quilt extensively (i think..), can anyone point me to "the quilt for dummies" docs someplace so that i might hack about the toolchain in peace Apr 27 14:17:27 airbags :D Apr 27 14:17:43 that'd be hilarious Apr 27 14:17:45 SpeedEvil: an airbag in a phone? Apr 27 14:17:58 Sure. :) Apr 27 14:17:59 good luck going on a plane with that phone Apr 27 14:18:02 airbag replacement after someone drops the phone on a nail Apr 27 14:18:03 Sup3rkiddo: the developers use OE for the toolchain, not quilt Apr 27 14:18:22 koen, for patches..i meant. Apr 27 14:18:40 that makes me think of.. inflatable doll in a phone Apr 27 14:18:43 wtf, prices for USB flash sticks are rising?!? Apr 27 14:24:04 It's a conspiracy by the mobile hard disk makers. Apr 27 14:24:44 yeah well screw them i'm not gonna buy a 1" drive ;) Apr 27 14:24:51 i just wont buy anything at all Apr 27 14:25:19 I'm really tempted to try selling my 1.3" drives as 'ideal for ipod replacements'. Apr 27 14:25:29 They are only 20Mb though. Apr 27 14:25:41 they are actually mechanically compatible. Apr 27 14:25:55 uhm ipod is using 1.8" no Apr 27 14:26:21 True, but they still fit - just not so large. Apr 27 14:26:29 The connector is the same. Apr 27 14:28:31 SpeedEvil: just piss around with ISO units a 20 Giga Milli Megs, the ebayers will never figure it out Apr 27 14:29:30 s/Megs/Bytes/ Apr 27 14:29:30 XorA meant: SpeedEvil: just piss around with ISO units a 20 Giga Milli Bytes, the ebayers will never figure it out Apr 27 14:30:28 if you comment that it can store about 100 e-books and/or pictures everyone will think it must be quite big Apr 27 14:30:37 :) Apr 27 14:30:44 "thousands of pictures" Apr 27 14:31:00 30 movie scripts Apr 27 14:31:16 thousands.. that would have to be very small ones :) Apr 27 14:31:34 yes :) Apr 27 14:31:56 I have way too much of that sort of crap. Apr 27 14:32:09 I got the 20MB drives when admittedly they were a good price. Apr 27 14:32:26 But they've stayed in their boxes, as I couldn't think of any use for them. Apr 27 14:33:36 :) Apr 27 14:33:40 :) Apr 27 14:42:29 openmoko: 03rob * r1859 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-window.c libmokoui/moko-window.h): Apr 27 14:42:29 openmoko: 2007-04-27 Rob Bradford Apr 27 14:42:29 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-window.c: (moko_window_set_status_message), Apr 27 14:42:29 openmoko: (moko_window_set_status_progress): Apr 27 14:42:29 openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-window.h: Apr 27 14:42:30 openmoko: Add functionality for controlling footer. Apr 27 14:43:10 openmoko: 03rob * r1860 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/src/ (callbacks.c callbacks.h footer.c footer.h main.c main.h): Apr 27 14:43:10 openmoko: Switch footer to using X properties for control (+ significant refactoring and Apr 27 14:43:10 openmoko: improvements.) Apr 27 14:43:36 openmoko: 03rob * r1861 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: Make the stylus demo application use the new status message/progress API. Apr 27 14:50:50 openmoko: 03dodji * r1862 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Apr 27 14:50:50 openmoko: added moko_time_as_timet. did some cosmetic changes to moko-journal.h,c. Apr 27 14:50:50 openmoko: * src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokojournal/src/moko-journal.c: Apr 27 14:50:50 openmoko: changed the caller/callee number props into local/distant props. Apr 27 14:50:50 openmoko: * src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokojournal/src/moko-time.c,h: Apr 27 14:50:50 openmoko: added moko_time_as_timet() Apr 27 14:54:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/ru]] [[Advanced_End-user/ru]] Apr 27 14:56:17 Heya, everyone. Apr 27 14:56:30 hi Pavel Apr 27 14:57:48 Is there 2.6.21 version of openmoko patches? Apr 27 14:57:56 (I mean openmoko kernel patches?) Apr 27 14:58:06 not yet Apr 27 14:58:19 Is there latest version of patches somewhere so I could help? Apr 27 14:58:21 Harald is too busy with other stuff Apr 27 14:58:27 pavelm: subversion repo Apr 27 14:58:49 I thought Ben had newer version than that...? Apr 27 14:58:59 pavelm: you can contact coreteam as additional kernel hacker probably Apr 27 15:00:19 are there any news on GPS front/phase1 testing software? Apr 27 15:00:33 no gps infos Apr 27 15:00:52 pavelm: and software you can build by yourself Apr 27 15:00:52 Someone popped up and said that the tomtom has the same chip, and they've straced it. Apr 27 15:01:03 I diddn't see any further results. Apr 27 15:01:51 hrw: I'll cheat and get image from buildhost. Apr 27 15:01:59 speed: tomtoms are running linux? Apr 27 15:02:02 Twas 'hopscotch' Apr 27 15:02:07 yes, tomtoms run linux Apr 27 15:02:43 pavelm: ;) Apr 27 15:03:43 hopscotch, are you around? Apr 27 15:03:51 [S][Hh]e diddn't make furthger comment. Apr 27 15:04:01 other than that it was 1.2M, and they were going for a haircut. Apr 27 15:04:08 this was a couple of days ago. Apr 27 15:04:27 SpeedEvil: And Hopscotch don't have long hairs. Apr 27 15:04:39 At least not at the time I saw him last. ;) Apr 27 15:05:06 Any news of hairdressers gone berserk in the media lately? Apr 27 15:05:09 garmin also run linux Apr 27 15:05:18 Alas, not my GPS12. Apr 27 15:05:25 Though it does have a 386ex in tehre. Apr 27 15:06:42 I found some notes on the web, seems like hopscotch is he (Christian Daniel) Apr 27 15:07:32 Oh - the Global Locate website has interesting performance results on their chipsets. Apr 27 15:07:32 pavelm: Yes. One of the OpenTom hackers Apr 27 15:08:05 As in locks inside metal filing cabinets, when normal GPSs wouldn't get a lock on top of it. Apr 27 15:08:43 speed: Do you have url? Apr 27 15:09:52 heh, linux in GPSes... I guess I should get a real GPS, not fortuna bluetooth beast. Apr 27 15:10:09 ...hmm, I guess I have one. It is called openmoko and it runs X. Ok, never minds. Apr 27 15:10:32 Well, it might be a GPS, it might be a warp drive. Till you get the drivers, you can't really tell. Apr 27 15:22:54 somebody here already got his p1? Apr 27 15:23:04 q Apr 27 15:23:05 ops Apr 27 15:25:16 <_minime> counter Apr 27 15:25:17 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 08:34:41 (17.357 +-3.5 days) (1032;184) Apr 27 15:26:59 _minime, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html Apr 27 15:28:42 Hi guysa Apr 27 15:32:44 <_minime> thomasg_, thx ;) Apr 27 15:38:48 somebody should tell the counter-bot this link :) Apr 27 15:40:01 I'd really like to see a vid of the neo in action. Apr 27 15:40:41 Buy the Matrix-DVD set :D Apr 27 15:40:51 j/k, gtg cu Apr 27 15:41:00 thomasg_: that's not actually contradicting the counter. Apr 27 15:41:29 Hey guys Apr 27 15:41:53 If the may 10 date works out well, then it's barely possible that they may ship within the end of the counter limit for the first batch. Apr 27 15:43:09 the problem is, that I have to buy a new mobile the next time. so I'd like to know if the neo p1 will be fast enough to be my primary phone. than I could order a cheap device from my provider Apr 27 15:43:26 What do you mean by fast enough? Apr 27 15:43:37 Arriving soon? Apr 27 15:43:41 no Apr 27 15:43:49 the speed of the device Apr 27 15:43:57 You're looking at around a pentium 100 or so. Apr 27 15:44:01 Maybe 133 Apr 27 15:44:08 thomasg_: get a cheapo nokia 1100 to tide you over Apr 27 15:44:24 or just go phoneless for a while, worked for me :) Apr 27 15:45:19 SpeedEvil, that comparison is useless for me. I heard that the neo is relatively slow at moment. especially the dialer. but it is important for me that it is fast enough Apr 27 15:45:29 LarstiQ, phoneless is not possible :) Apr 27 15:45:35 The dialer is a bug. Apr 27 15:45:43 It's not inherent. Apr 27 15:45:47 The calculation is fast. Apr 27 15:45:49 err Apr 27 15:45:51 calculator. Apr 27 15:46:33 SpeedEvil, good to hear! Apr 27 15:46:34 Most of the effort AIUI is going to getting hardware out the door. Apr 27 15:46:43 Rahter than polishing mostly-working stuff. Apr 27 15:47:13 Basically. the processor in it is quite fast enough for any practical phone use. Apr 27 15:47:20 I need my cellphone for work and I have to do much calls every day. so the speed is really important for me Apr 27 15:47:28 It just can't quite do fullscreen video. Apr 27 15:47:30 thomasg_: I managed to live without one for 2 months, even got to parties without the directions up front :) Apr 27 15:47:35 (but it does at half resolution) Apr 27 15:47:42 aha Apr 27 15:48:01 LarstiQ, I had my first mobile at the age of 17 :) Apr 27 15:48:33 but now I need it for work, so living without it is really not possible ^^ Apr 27 15:48:57 * LarstiQ nods Apr 27 15:49:40 cu Apr 27 15:52:10 thomasg_: Not trying to keep you from getting the Neo so soon, though I'd like to point out that depending on a alpha state software for day-to-day tasks might not be the smartest thing to do - though it would of course be useful for finding bugs... Apr 27 15:54:57 abraxa_: I've been doing my programming job on e17 for years already, and it's still considered alpha XD Apr 27 15:55:32 Rakshasa, I did the german translation for e17 and am use for about a year. its alpha, but I love it :) Apr 27 15:56:34 abraxa_, of course I know that its alpha software mostly. the only thing I want is a stable phone function (basic). I also won't use it as my only phone (have 4 sim cards currently), but my decision for buying a new phone is depending on the neo :) Apr 27 15:56:58 thomasg_: Onne can't but love it. ^^ Apr 27 15:57:16 thomasg_: That's quite alright, just wanted to point that out Apr 27 15:57:42 abraxa_, yes, thanks. my fear was, that the processor of the neo simpliy is too slow for the apps Apr 27 15:58:49 thomasg_: I, too, am curious about the performance - even if I have no worries about the main apps running slow Apr 27 15:58:59 the reason why I would by the neo is also, that I want to play around, test, ... but I wouldnt spend 350$ for a device I couldnt really use. but it seems that p1 is ready to get bought by me :) Apr 27 15:59:40 abraxa_, one of my current devices is a HTC Universe with vga and win mobile 5. the dialing software here is really damn slow and not usable for my daily needs. Apr 27 16:00:34 thomasg_: ...but since OpenMoko has a lot more to lose you can bet that this won't happen ;) Apr 27 16:00:59 hehe Apr 27 16:01:43 I'd really like to support FIC, and I'm glad that there is (will be) a complete open source phone platform. so if the neo is fast enough for me, I WILL support FIC :) Apr 27 16:03:03 i wonder... why 4 sims? Apr 27 16:03:07 I also can imagine what will be possible with this device in near future. for a power-user like me I'll be perfect probably. Apr 27 16:03:18 As long as it has a proper dbus implementation, it should be ok. Also, it'd be nice if they used Motorola's trick of integrating the dialer into the always visible main screen, which means it's already resident so it starts up instantly. Apr 27 16:03:51 nibbler_de, 2 phones, 1 htc universe (for doing my work), 1 hsdpa pcmcia card Apr 27 16:04:08 for me dialer is not a bunch of numbers Apr 27 16:04:11 thomasg_: why two phones additionally to the htc universe? Apr 27 16:04:30 nibbler_de, for me the universe isnt really a phone. more a big pda or mini notebook Apr 27 16:04:32 i've probably used the numbers to pick the number once in the last 2 years Apr 27 16:05:07 yeah - that's why i got a 9500 in favour of the htc universe though it has no umts Apr 27 16:05:54 but still i wonder, why two phones? :) Apr 27 16:06:19 I agree, a decent phonebook implementation is probably more important. Apr 27 16:06:49 nibbler_de, before a year there was a decision for me: get a 9300i or not. the lack of a vibration function let me decide against the 9300i. Apr 27 16:06:59 nibbler_de, 1 private, 1 work Apr 27 16:07:08 5 most called in the phonebook, last 5 called Apr 27 16:07:18 so you don't actually have to browse, but can click Apr 27 16:07:21 Lack of a vibrator was indeed a pretty weird marketing decision, heh. Apr 27 16:07:27 well, I don't really use the private phone (call forwarding), but I have it :) Apr 27 16:08:07 no vibra in neo? Apr 27 16:08:10 guaqua, I also dont use the keypad on my current phone, because it has voice recognition (great!) Apr 27 16:08:14 SuN: the haptics of the phonebook should be like having a large list (almost full screen) and being able to scroll through the phonebook with a speed that corellates with the distance of your fingertip to the middle of the screen Apr 27 16:08:23 voice recognition...ewwww Apr 27 16:08:37 guaqua, it works really good here Apr 27 16:08:47 really fast, too Apr 27 16:08:48 SuN: the more to the top, the faster upwards and vice versa for down. Apr 27 16:08:59 i find voice recognition clumsy Apr 27 16:09:30 Makes sense, I guess. Though linear behaviour should be at least an option, because exponential scrolling behaviour is not logical for everyone. Apr 27 16:09:43 the new nokia voice recognition is really great, because it really recognizes voice (so you dont have to save the voice for each contact) Apr 27 16:09:58 Though, an alphabetic keypad like Motorola has would work pretty well also. Apr 27 16:10:14 But one obviously doesn't have to exclude the other. Apr 27 16:13:03 guaqua: The Neo will have a vibrator and it's actually quite cute to look at :) Apr 27 16:13:12 abraxa_: okay :) Apr 27 16:13:17 thomasg_: i was just curious because i'm carrying arround 3-4 phones (recently two of them being satphones) and didn't expect other people to be that insane ;) Apr 27 16:13:50 ^^ Apr 27 16:13:53 abraxa_: will the vibrator also be used to give a feedback on "pressed" keys in the ui? Apr 27 16:14:08 nibbler_de: Isn't that great? The government won't ever have troubles finding out where you are ;) Apr 27 16:14:19 nibbler_de, in the neo ALL could be possible :) Apr 27 16:14:21 nibbler_de: No clue Apr 27 16:14:31 it just needs a person to develop the feature Apr 27 16:15:34 abraxa_: not only the government. with thuraya nearly anybody can - have a look at http://www.shoghi.co.in/thuraya_monitoring_decoding_system.html Apr 27 16:17:17 nibbler_de: I'm not too familiar with the systems/bands mentioned there - does that system monitor GSM messages or how does it work? Apr 27 16:17:31 abraxa_: it monitors the thuraya satellite system Apr 27 16:17:56 btw. nibbler_de, do you work for a carrier or why the hell you have 4 cellphones? :) Apr 27 16:18:00 nibbler_de: Ah... so no need to be concerned as a GSM-only user then Apr 27 16:18:16 abraxa_: it provides exact locations of every single phone in the system Apr 27 16:18:35 abraxa_: uhm - no - not more concerned than a gsm user should normally be ;) Apr 27 16:20:42 nibbler_de: Yeah... I was demonstrating in Frankfurt two weeks ago so I am quite concerned already ;x Apr 27 16:21:00 thomasg_: not really. i'm just a freak. one phone for "free" inbound via landline (the old o2 diversion trick), one phone for fax/ssh/calendar/etc (being currently split to E70 and 9500 due to the lack of inbound fax support for S60 *grrr*), one satellite phone for receiving network monitoring messages. Apr 27 16:21:35 thomasg_: my desk: http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/6728/4051/1600/z/528859/image-upload-5-796520.jpg Apr 27 16:22:46 oh my god! ^^ Apr 27 16:23:06 but nice collection Apr 27 16:23:12 and the same keyboard is also on my desk Apr 27 16:23:20 it's about 10% of the collection :) Apr 27 16:23:29 or not the same, but a similar one Apr 27 16:23:48 i also thought about having all four networks in my pocket but skipped that idea https://nibbler.de/all-nets.jpg Apr 27 16:24:15 hehe Apr 27 16:25:09 my collection is not so impressive, but my devices are more extraordinary :) Apr 27 16:25:24 --verbose ;) Apr 27 16:25:30 I wish I could find my prototype laptop power unit. Apr 27 16:25:47 A small model aircraft engine fitted in a laptop power bay. Apr 27 16:25:47 siemens sx-1 (sold last month, but a really cool device), nokia 7710 (do not know anybody who has this device), mda pro/htc universe Apr 27 16:26:04 SpeedEvil, lol Apr 27 16:26:07 It actually did work, but it was rather noisy. Apr 27 16:26:34 methane powered? Apr 27 16:26:36 No. Apr 27 16:26:38 Glow fuel. Apr 27 16:26:50 (methanol, nitromethane, castor oil) Apr 27 16:27:03 The problem was the oil output, in addition to the noise. Apr 27 16:27:07 hehe Apr 27 16:27:29 thomasg_: that's not extraordinary ;) extraordinary would be a sony ericsson "SE 123" ;-) Apr 27 16:27:49 hehe Apr 27 16:28:03 well ok, but every se was sold more often than the 7710 ;) Apr 27 16:28:16 the 7710 is very nice, but incredibly slow. Apr 27 16:28:29 what's 7710 like? Apr 27 16:28:33 the neo :) Apr 27 16:28:50 only touchscreen (640x320), relatively big Apr 27 16:29:09 haven't seen it Apr 27 16:29:31 not the SE123 ;) Apr 27 16:29:59 http://www.mobiletracker.net/archives/2004/10/01/nokia_7710_deta.php look here Apr 27 16:30:43 looks nice Apr 27 16:31:02 the 7710 has 3 main problems: lack of software (nokia/symbian series90), very slow (hardware and software), lack of connectivity (edge only). I'm sure the neo will do all things better (at least with p1+) Apr 27 16:31:13 i know the 7710 Apr 27 16:31:30 neo has a connectivity limit too... Apr 27 16:31:41 the first one. Apr 27 16:32:02 guaqua, yes, thats a bit bothering. but in p1+ there will be wlan what is a beginning. Apr 27 16:46:20 hi. I just got openmoko booted up in qemu. what's the best way try to develop third party applications? can I run NFS etc. in qemu? Apr 27 16:50:26 hmmm... now i'm here... Apr 27 16:57:14 Hopscotch: Did you upload that strace of the tomtom Hammerhead anywhere? Apr 27 16:57:48 nope, not yet Apr 27 16:58:23 i should do another one with the gps memory wiped first Apr 27 17:07:10 GPS memory wiped isn't actually vital. It's slightly handy - but even a normal start will tell us quite a lot. Apr 27 17:07:47 the inputs, and the NMEA outputs - if there are any - or even just position and time are pretty much enough to get started with. Apr 27 17:08:30 nmea output is generated by the daemon Apr 27 17:08:39 Yeah. Apr 27 17:09:03 the hammerhead is completly stupid - even channel switching (change of chipping sequence) is done from userpsace Apr 27 17:09:08 I know. Apr 27 17:09:17 ;) Apr 27 17:09:22 And I don't think it actually changes chipping sequence does it? Apr 27 17:09:29 Doesn't it decode them all at once? Apr 27 17:09:46 Though actually, logically it might want to pick 12 Apr 27 17:09:46 i really don't know Apr 27 17:09:58 but i saw more writing to the device than reading from it Apr 27 17:10:02 (as there are 24 possibilities, but you can never see more than 12) Apr 27 17:10:20 The chip uses massively parallel comparators internally. Apr 27 17:11:39 seems like you know much more about it than me :) Apr 27 17:13:27 http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_TECHNOLOGY_Frameset.htm Apr 27 17:14:19 http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/Semi_Libr_Piece/IndoorGPSTechnology.pdf is interesting too. Apr 27 17:14:25 thomasg_: i think htc universal was about the first device to run openmoko outside fic's lab Apr 27 17:14:27 GPS from inside a closed metal file cabinet. Apr 27 17:14:46 * SpeedEvil nitpicks - PCs can run it too. Apr 27 17:15:17 ~s/device/phone/ Apr 27 17:17:12 SpeedEvil: yeah, i have sirf2 here and sirf3 and hammerhead Apr 27 17:17:21 hammerhead is the only one to get a lock inside the flat Apr 27 17:17:45 buz, somehow the universe is a cool device, but win mobile is very bothering and its more a notebook than a cellphone Apr 27 17:17:54 i think its too big Apr 27 17:17:58 definately Apr 27 17:18:03 i'd love to get a vga tytn with openmoko ;) Apr 27 17:18:06 Hopscotch: :) Apr 27 17:18:15 but for the things I have to use it the size doesnt matter Apr 27 17:18:33 i wonder when the nokia e90 will arrive Apr 27 17:18:50 what I like about the universe is the endless standbytime. its about a week (awsome!) Apr 27 17:18:56 A neo1974, with a 4" screen and wifi and same other features would be nice. Apr 27 17:19:13 gimme qwerty in that big a device Apr 27 17:19:16 SpeedEvil, eek! :) 2,8" is big enough Apr 27 17:19:18 I'm unsure. Apr 27 17:19:34 if you have me carry around a 4" screen i want qwerty Apr 27 17:19:36 A keyboard takes a lot away from a screen. Apr 27 17:19:38 buz, the e90 should be available in may. its very cool, too. Apr 27 17:19:44 SpeedEvil: slide or clamshell Apr 27 17:19:50 If you make it a tablet-like device that could work. Apr 27 17:19:51 i want qwerty regardless :) Apr 27 17:19:52 SpeedEvil: http://www.maintech.de/download/hammerhead-strace.log Apr 27 17:20:02 the universal in essence a winmobile tablet Apr 27 17:20:04 * SpeedEvil sighs. Apr 27 17:20:14 Hopscotch: Thanks. Apr 27 17:20:16 buz / SpeedEvil HTC has a device with 4" screen (800x480 afaik!) and clip-keyboard Apr 27 17:20:25 i think it's 5" Apr 27 17:20:28 * SpeedEvil wishes that he had hardware to play with that. Apr 27 17:20:29 and its frigging huge Apr 27 17:20:43 yeah, huge is the word :) Apr 27 17:20:48 and damn expensive Apr 27 17:20:50 The problem I have with HTCs that approach that is that they are getting damn near the weight of my laptop. Apr 27 17:20:54 nfw i would buy that Apr 27 17:21:01 now as for a clamshell neo Apr 27 17:21:03 At 1.1Kg, and 8 hour battery life, the laptop may often win. Apr 27 17:21:21 what laptop has 8 hour battery ligfe? Apr 27 17:21:23 installing linux likely would be easier, too Apr 27 17:21:27 guaqua: some panasonics Apr 27 17:21:28 SpeedEvil, the sony vaio g1 runs 6 to 11 hours at 0,9 to 1,1 kg Apr 27 17:21:41 guaqua: Toshiba 3110CT, re-celled with modern cells. Apr 27 17:21:43 how about the vaio umpc Apr 27 17:21:48 guaqua, vaio g1 with big battery (1,1 kg) about 11,5 hour Apr 27 17:21:58 that's crazy Apr 27 17:22:10 not that i ever needed more than 1h Apr 27 17:22:21 the notebook is fantastic. but its lacking a trackpoint, so I wont buy it :) Apr 27 17:22:39 * buz is eagerly awaiting his T60 Apr 27 17:22:45 but i dread the damn ati chip Apr 27 17:22:54 buz: the currently available UMPCs are about 2-4 hours Apr 27 17:23:12 ah well if sucks too bad i will sell it on ebay, i got it enough under retail to come out ahead ;) Apr 27 17:23:20 buz, I have a x24 at moment, with ati radeon 7000. with open source drivers it rocks :) Apr 27 17:23:32 well, the x1400 doesnt have opensource drives Apr 27 17:23:35 drivers Apr 27 17:23:51 i would have much preferred intel integrated but lenovo doesnt give discount on those Apr 27 17:23:53 thats true. or at least no os drivers with glx support Apr 27 17:24:11 i've been thinking about getting the ibm x60 Apr 27 17:24:14 yeah i dont really care just HOW the drivers do their job Apr 27 17:24:16 guaqua: dont Apr 27 17:24:27 ? :< Apr 27 17:24:31 its a fundamentally bad deal with that lousy xga display Apr 27 17:24:34 guaqua, if you think about getting a x60 you definiately should look at the sony vaio g1. Apr 27 17:24:47 and the panasonic y5 Apr 27 17:24:52 it's pricey but omg Apr 27 17:25:06 well how about the new hp consumer devices, 12 inch touchscreen? Apr 27 17:25:06 the g1 is probably the best subnotebook I've ever seen Apr 27 17:25:29 the panasonic y5 is a 14" 1400x1050 core duo job at 1.5kg with 8h battery Apr 27 17:25:32 guaqua, hp business devices are ok, but the pavillon (consumer) series isnt really good Apr 27 17:25:40 hp? Apr 27 17:25:47 hp claims you void warranty by using linux Apr 27 17:25:47 the pavilions are dirt cheap, even in finland Apr 27 17:25:48 hewlett packard Apr 27 17:25:52 ah :) Apr 27 17:26:06 you must reinstall XP to get them to repair their crap Apr 27 17:26:12 :/ Apr 27 17:26:14 bad bad Apr 27 17:26:22 no such experience from sony? Apr 27 17:26:23 at least thats what i read in different places Apr 27 17:26:33 you mean sony has something like support? Apr 27 17:26:37 :D Apr 27 17:26:38 ^^ Apr 27 17:26:53 they sure as hell dont really support my p900 Apr 27 17:27:02 I don't like sony notebooks for normal, too, but the G1 simply rocks Apr 27 17:27:13 SpeedEvil: 0xff, 0xfe, 0xfd and 0xfc seem to be the framing characters Apr 27 17:27:16 buz, ok, theres a difference: sony is not SE Apr 27 17:27:23 yeah sony is worse Apr 27 17:27:29 it's the rootkit company Apr 27 17:27:32 ^^ Apr 27 17:27:54 as far as i can tell, SE at least didnt try to hack my machine Apr 27 17:28:18 well i hope the rumour of a completely rewritten ATI linux driver are true Apr 27 17:28:31 Hopscotch: Alas, no hardware :( Apr 27 17:28:46 http://www.globallocate.com/PRESS/Press_Releases/PR_GL_SuesSiRF.htm has potentially interesting patent numbers. Apr 27 17:29:48 does anyone know about lg laptops? Apr 27 17:29:59 there's Z1 express Apr 27 17:30:20 lg? Apr 27 17:30:27 i dont think i've ever seen laptops by them Apr 27 17:30:47 SpeedEvil: hmmm... hardware... tomtom one V2 is here as well as phase0-phone... Apr 27 17:30:48 around here it's tons of acer, hp and toshiba Apr 27 17:30:55 well, LG is the same crap as HP Pavillon, FSC Amilo, BenQ, Toshiba, ... Apr 27 17:31:10 Hopscotch: Yeah - I was just wishing. Apr 27 17:31:14 thomasg_: i'm quite satisfied with my toshiba portege Apr 27 17:31:23 but then again, thats way in the business class Apr 27 17:31:25 well what about macbooks then? Apr 27 17:31:26 thomasg_: you forgot asus crap headquarters Apr 27 17:31:32 What might be interesting would be some way to connect tty*s on the neo, and the tomtom Apr 27 17:31:34 and usually priced far beyond reason Apr 27 17:31:56 Hopscotch, I'm not sure about asus. all asus notebooks I know are crap, but I heard, that they have some good ones. dont really know. Apr 27 17:31:56 guaqua: friend of mine bought a bunch for his family Apr 27 17:32:01 So you can get positions from the neo hardware, without writing stuff. Apr 27 17:32:07 out of 5, 4 had to be rma'd in the first 8 months Apr 27 17:32:22 that needs a hack to the tomtom kernel Apr 27 17:32:22 buz: that's what i've heard too... Apr 27 17:32:37 Oh well. Apr 27 17:32:44 i have two ibooks here, one of them nearly died 1 week before warranty was over Apr 27 17:32:52 but since it was rmad it seems to work Apr 27 17:33:02 ibook is whole another hardware though Apr 27 17:33:06 personally, i think the macbooks are way too cheaply built Apr 27 17:33:06 SpeedEvil: because i bet that the gltt application won't like failing ioctls on a named pipe... Apr 27 17:33:16 That's true. Apr 27 17:33:18 and macbook pro is way overpriced Apr 27 17:33:22 buz: I worked in the IT support at the soccer worldcup 2006. toshiba was one of the main sponsors, so guess what notebooks we had :) Apr 27 17:33:38 thomasg_: well that probably were satellites? Apr 27 17:33:41 imho the toshiba porteges arent worth its money. Apr 27 17:33:49 thomasg_: mine was 40% under retail Apr 27 17:33:55 1000EUR was a really decent deal for it Apr 27 17:33:57 they are not really bad, but not worth its money Apr 27 17:34:02 Hello, Hopscotch... and thanks for the logs. Apr 27 17:34:07 Hopscotch: I thought the tomtom could take USB memory sticks for reading stuff - hence a USB serial adaptor. Apr 27 17:34:11 what I like about it is, that they all had trackpoints and touchpads :) Apr 27 17:34:17 thomasg_: 1400x1050 tablet for 1000EUR is worth the money Apr 27 17:34:20 * prpplague still uses his toshiba libreto Apr 27 17:34:25 well except for the fact that tablet is really useles Apr 27 17:34:31 prpplague: i cant type on those Apr 27 17:34:33 Speedevil: Would it be "politically correct" to create GPS reverse engineering page in openmoko wiki? Apr 27 17:34:35 SpeedEvil: nope, the mp3-player one has a built-in harddrive Apr 27 17:34:37 buz, thats ok, but for normal they are much more expensive, arent they? Apr 27 17:34:38 that's just toooo f*** small Apr 27 17:34:45 pavelm: I see no reason why not. Apr 27 17:34:47 pavelm: i guess so Apr 27 17:34:48 prpplague, the libretto is really cool :) Apr 27 17:34:49 thomasg_: yeah more like >1500EUR Apr 27 17:35:21 dunno why it was suddenly that cheap, after that it was back at 1400EUR Apr 27 17:35:24 yea, i have two, one that is original, another that i hacked in a sa-1110 board inside Apr 27 17:35:46 Unfortunately, I've got no time - as I have to deal with the fallout from my car accident (nobody injured, but still really annoying) Apr 27 17:35:48 is xga the problem with ibm x60 or what? Apr 27 17:35:56 * SpeedEvil leaves. Apr 27 17:35:57 WAve. Apr 27 17:35:59 Good luck! Apr 27 17:36:02 SpeedEvil: cu :) Apr 27 17:36:02 guaqua: i think so, i wouldnt pay 1500EUR for a XGA laptop Apr 27 17:36:03 Bye, speed Apr 27 17:36:07 YMMV of course Apr 27 17:36:07 * guaqua waves at SpeedEvil Apr 27 17:36:27 buz: with a touchscreen and the fact that it's an ibm? Apr 27 17:36:31 well, I was a bit disappointed, because I expected the toshibas to be better. maybe they will work long without problems, but the workmanship wasnt as good as I expected Apr 27 17:36:38 the x60 has no touchscreen Apr 27 17:36:42 i'm putting a little hope on the fact that it might be well designed Apr 27 17:36:51 argh... Apr 27 17:36:52 well mechanically it seems solid Apr 27 17:37:03 but for the price you can get the toshiba with 1400*1050 screen Apr 27 17:37:15 or you could buy mine ;) Apr 27 17:37:17 buz: maybe I'm spoiled (thinkpad x24) :) Apr 27 17:37:32 what toshiba model is that, buz? Apr 27 17:37:38 guaqua: portege m200 Apr 27 17:37:51 still has about 1,5year warranty Apr 27 17:38:35 any word if the FIC guys have decided on ar6k chipset yet? Apr 27 17:38:50 buz: maybe the m200 is better than the other ones. we had 15" porteges Apr 27 17:39:21 Sean said on Wednesday that they're almost for sure going to have AR6K wifi in their "next product" Apr 27 17:39:34 thomasg_: it's widely considered to be one of the best tablets there is Apr 27 17:39:36 mjr: that is good news Apr 27 17:39:41 that sounds somewhat decided Apr 27 17:39:46 not completely, but somewhat Apr 27 17:39:59 "almost for sure" :) Apr 27 17:40:05 if there will be EDGE, too, I'd be really happy :) Apr 27 17:40:18 thomasg_: there once was a rumour about faster gsm Apr 27 17:40:24 but that died off quickly Apr 27 17:40:30 * tigert likes 3G Apr 27 17:40:34 last.fm works nicely Apr 27 17:40:44 that should work with edge, too Apr 27 17:40:49 probably Apr 27 17:40:52 3g is nice, but not really needed. edge would be enough Apr 27 17:40:53 skype too Apr 27 17:41:04 thomasg_: has any other network than t-möbel deployed edge? Apr 27 17:41:11 no nibbler_de Apr 27 17:41:15 :( Apr 27 17:41:18 but vodafone will Apr 27 17:41:25 thomasg: 3g + HSDPA is 2mbit... good enough for big downloads. Apr 27 17:41:32 ah, US? Apr 27 17:41:44 the land of stoneage in mobile phones :) Apr 27 17:41:56 ericssons ceo is telling the poeple that they are invsting a hundred million euro into their networks, but I'm sure they wont get edge ;) Apr 27 17:42:01 or, well, their own standards rather Apr 27 17:42:14 pavelm, 3,5g (umts+hsdpa) is cool, yes. but its damn expensive Apr 27 17:42:15 tigert: even gsm sucks in the US Apr 27 17:42:24 koen: yeah Apr 27 17:42:25 not only the hardware, afaik you need a licence for hsdpa Apr 27 17:42:29 the contracts suck even more Apr 27 17:42:38 tigert: I could see the reception jumping up and down with just having the phone lying on the table Apr 27 17:42:56 thomasg: Licence for hsdpa? They are selling hsdpa capable headsets for ~$400... with windows mobile and qwerty. Apr 27 17:43:02 koen: remember those spams "booster antenna! speak on mobile phone wile on ELEVATORS! Unbelieveable!" Apr 27 17:43:06 ? :) Apr 27 17:43:11 while even Apr 27 17:43:17 yeah Apr 27 17:43:23 thomasg: So I do not expect it to be too bad. I am thinking about buying it. Apr 27 17:43:26 I have never had a phonecall cut in an elevator Apr 27 17:43:29 except in Boston Apr 27 17:43:40 it happens at the uni here Apr 27 17:43:52 I guess it can happen in very bunker-like buildings of course Apr 27 17:43:53 pavelm, I'll buy the neo, too, thats for sure. but edge would be nice anyway :) Apr 27 17:43:56 but generally not often Apr 27 17:43:56 but that's because the 4th floor has big signs "INDUCTION LOOP" plastered all over Apr 27 17:44:00 :) Apr 27 17:44:14 at my uni, many buildings have no reception Apr 27 17:44:24 (except for swisscom, because they get to have in building antennas) Apr 27 17:44:24 buz: country? Apr 27 17:44:31 university of zurich Apr 27 17:44:34 "phone might not work as expected when in proximity of particle accelerators" Apr 27 17:44:52 thomasg: I plan to teach openmoko to use EDGE modem from nearby nokia 6230 over bluetooth. Apr 27 17:45:06 the MIT "stata center" building has no reception Apr 27 17:45:08 but thats by design Apr 27 17:45:14 so the lectures work much better :) Apr 27 17:45:57 buz: well, in switzerland there is not much competition in mobile communication business, is it? Apr 27 17:46:16 tigert: people wanted to do that over here Apr 27 17:46:30 tigert: till someone got a heart attack and they couldn't dial 112 Apr 27 17:46:49 thomasg_: well technically there's 3 networks and a bunch of MVNO but if you look at the pricing its more of cartel than comeptition Apr 27 17:46:49 wired phones being too far away and all Apr 27 17:47:08 koen: right Apr 27 17:47:14 koen: "go outside"? Apr 27 17:47:23 buz: yeah, thats a problem. the more and the bigger the competitors are, the better the net is :) Apr 27 17:47:30 my phone died in a parking-garage elevator in san francisco. i'm not hip with cell-phone lingo, but i think it was using GSM (the provider was T-Mobile) Apr 27 17:47:37 well there's orange which is backed by telecom france Apr 27 17:47:49 and sunrise which mostly is a teledanmark subsidiary Apr 27 17:48:09 (ironically, former swisscom ceo now is with tele danmark) Apr 27 17:48:44 Hopscotch: /var/run/gpspipe... that's talking NMEA? (Too lazy to check) Apr 27 17:49:16 chreekat, thats normal. if the base station is a few hundret meters away and it is not sending with much power you wont have radio reception under 3 feet of concrete Apr 27 17:49:17 ... could we just take binary from tomtom and run it on openmoko? Apr 27 17:49:26 pavelm: yes, that's where the navigation app picks up the nmea messages Apr 27 17:49:30 thomasg_: at least we finally have flatrate umts Apr 27 17:49:32 pavelm, maybe. Apr 27 17:49:40 pavelm: no, different ABI Apr 27 17:49:46 buz: SFr? Apr 27 17:50:05 thomasg_: in a weird deal: every day you use it, you pay 3.50CHF Apr 27 17:50:06 pavelm: should have a chance to work - after adding directories like /mnt/flash/... Apr 27 17:50:13 dont use it, dont pay Apr 27 17:50:19 thats cool! Apr 27 17:50:29 koen: different abi? Apr 27 17:50:33 eabi? Apr 27 17:50:45 well, its not so cool if you want to check mails only, but if you are using it intensively thats a good deal Apr 27 17:50:52 ...it would be nice to check that chip in tomtom and chip in openmoko are really compatible. Apr 27 17:51:00 well unfortunately you cant have it for prepay, only contracts Apr 27 17:51:11 pavelm, doesnt matter Apr 27 17:51:15 pavelm: there is only one hammerhead afaik Apr 27 17:51:30 tomtom offers its software for symbian devices which all have arm processors like the neo Apr 27 17:51:40 Hopscotch: companies tend to replace part while keeping the same name Apr 27 17:51:41 so thats definately no problem Apr 27 17:51:51 It's just connected to a serial port. Apr 27 17:51:53 * koen looks at the 2 sun network cards in a box next to a desk Apr 27 17:51:57 I guess the tomtom handhelds are mips or arm Apr 27 17:52:04 And there is definitively only one actual chip - according to global locate. Apr 27 17:52:06 s3c2410 Apr 27 17:52:21 thomasg_: same CPU != same ABI Apr 27 17:52:51 koen: Well, if we are really desperate, we can just change ABI. Apr 27 17:52:51 koen, thats true, but maybe tomtom simply is offering its software for the neo community? Apr 27 17:52:59 ok, let me check external dependencies of gltt Apr 27 17:53:09 all I wanted to say is, that the tomtom software should be portable enough to run on the neo. Apr 27 17:53:35 maybe not the symbian or tomtom handheld version, but the software compiled for the neo Apr 27 17:54:01 tomtom go devices are pure linux systems Apr 27 17:54:11 Hopscotch, yes, thats true Apr 27 17:54:19 gltt is depending in libm, libc - that's it Apr 27 17:54:23 linux != linux Apr 27 17:54:24 -in + on Apr 27 17:54:33 to make it a bit simpler for all of you Apr 27 17:54:37 thats true, too. :) Apr 27 17:55:02 but like I said: it should be portable without (much) changes in the codebase Apr 27 17:55:19 koen: i was one of the tomtom kernel hackers (in charge of framebuffer driver, sound, etc...) Apr 27 17:55:28 Hopscotch: I know Apr 27 17:55:51 Hopscotch: but even kernel hackers seen to forget that linux on arm has like 6 different, incompatible ABIs Apr 27 17:57:11 Hopscotch: maybe you should convince tomtom to sell a neo version then ;) Apr 27 17:57:20 they seem open minded enough about linux Apr 27 17:58:05 buz: if there is no need of changes in the code, I see no reason why tomtom shouldnt sell its software for us Apr 27 17:58:17 nope, forget that one Apr 27 17:58:40 they're open minded as long as they have an obligation to a license or about 1000000 waiting customers Apr 27 17:59:01 well thats more than can be said about most companies Apr 27 17:59:12 true :) Apr 27 17:59:18 hehe Apr 27 17:59:36 (Hopscotch: I'll create "Hammerhead protocol" in wiki... with pointer to your trace. I hope that's ok?) Apr 27 17:59:51 personally i like the tomtom software but i think the devices are too expensive Apr 27 17:59:54 yes of course Apr 27 18:00:42 are you guys here later this evening? Apr 27 18:01:15 because girlfriend is asking for dinner - and i would try to run gltt on the neo after that Apr 27 18:01:26 buz: I use a tomtom go 510 every day, and I really like it. Apr 27 18:01:50 its not cheap, but its worth its money if you need if for work e.g. Apr 27 18:02:06 or better: if i put the gltt online - would anyone care to test it? Apr 27 18:02:17 Hopscotch: I'm going to do some swimming. Apr 27 18:02:37 should be faster :) Apr 27 18:02:52 pavelm: i had my session of sports for today :) Apr 27 18:04:00 Hopscotch: I went for outdoor swimming -- weather is really nice, but water is too cold. So heading indoors now. Apr 27 18:04:27 :) Apr 27 18:04:49 How long is GPS sequence from sattelite? Apr 27 18:05:02 Complex. Apr 27 18:05:26 1024 bit cycle psuedorandom code varying per-satellite repeated every millisecond. Apr 27 18:05:48 speed: but there are some data modulated on that, no? Apr 27 18:05:54 On top of this at 50Hz is modulated (xor) data Apr 27 18:06:12 Basically a 300 bit navigation message, that repeats one sixth of a second. Apr 27 18:06:15 speed: How long is that 50Hz modulated packet? Apr 27 18:06:27 it's 50bps Apr 27 18:06:35 37bytes, ok. Apr 27 18:07:02 You probably need to look at wikipedia [[gps]] it's got signal info. Apr 27 18:07:13 are there some headers I could identify in 300bit navigation message? I guess I need wikipedia, yes. Apr 27 18:07:41 I suspect that the hammerhead will not actually process the 50bps datastream at all. Apr 27 18:07:41 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol Apr 27 18:07:57 speed: I certainly hope so. Apr 27 18:08:09 speed: If they do some processing, we have a problem. Apr 27 18:08:22 Oh Yeah. Apr 27 18:11:25 10 byte packets seem popular in both directions. Apr 27 18:12:57 Yep, but those 10 byte packets sent _to_ gps seem to have very little information in them Apr 27 18:13:41 ..where did you find that GPS information? Wikipedia article is rather long :-( Apr 27 18:13:50 Basically memory. Apr 27 18:13:57 Done a simple GPS design in the past. Apr 27 18:14:13 ...aha, GPS signals? Apr 27 18:14:27 Speed: wow, so you are the one who decodes it for us :^) Apr 27 18:14:28 Err - that should be 6 second navigation messages, not 1/6th Apr 27 18:14:42 Unfortunately. Apr 27 18:14:57 The decoder I did has almost nothing in common. Apr 27 18:15:25 It was a _very_ simple one - basically using an 8 bit 100Mhz micro to generate chip sequences for all satellites. Apr 27 18:15:35 And external simple summers. Apr 27 18:15:46 very slow, very inaccurate, only plus very cheap (for the time) Apr 27 18:16:18 And I just did the design, rather than actually got it working. Apr 27 18:17:02 Did anyone by now see any bits from the GL gps? Apr 27 18:17:20 Elrond: I think everyone has (in the tomtom) Apr 27 18:17:43 Ok, I'll have to go... see you later. Apr 27 18:17:47 256 write(3, "\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80 Apr 27 18:17:47 ", 16) = 16 Apr 27 18:17:47 256 write(3, "\xff\x0c\xfd\xc0\x00\xfc\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00 Apr 27 18:17:47 \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00 Apr 27 18:17:47 \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00 Apr 27 18:17:47 \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00", 64) = 64 Apr 27 18:17:54 Are teh init it looks like. Apr 27 18:18:01 do that, and it starts to talk. Apr 27 18:18:34 SpeedEvil - Ahhh. Can you put the sequence in the wiki (unless it's already there)? Apr 27 18:18:48 SpeedEvil - I meant: Did anyone get bits from the GL in the neo? Apr 27 18:18:56 Don't think so. Apr 27 18:19:07 It's in the hardware:hammerhead page - the strace Apr 27 18:19:56 Ahh, great. Apr 27 18:20:28 Ok. We know that the chip is 'massively parallel'. Apr 27 18:21:16 Ok, see you! Apr 27 18:21:22 WAve. Apr 27 18:23:16 Let's assume that there are 8-12 satellites in view at Hopscotch's location. Apr 27 18:23:52 There is an interesting break in the 'read' size distribution. Apr 27 18:24:17 Okay, I'm too dumb. Can you give me the URL to the strace in the wiki? Apr 27 18:24:57 There are 8 of length 464 or higher. Apr 27 18:24:59 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol Apr 27 18:25:20 Ahh. :-) Apr 27 18:25:30 If we assume that these are delay space readouts from the chip, for each satellite in view. Apr 27 18:26:47 Then it might not be unreasonable to assume that these are 2 bit I/Q values for each entry in delay space. Apr 27 18:29:02 I/Q ? Apr 27 18:29:11 Real and imaginary components. Apr 27 18:29:39 Each GPS satellite broadcasts a unique 1024 bit 'chip' code. Apr 27 18:29:59 this is then repeated forever, xor'd by the much slower modulations. Apr 27 18:30:29 Yeah, I know the signals mostly. Apr 27 18:30:30 50 repeats per data bit, and then 300 data bits per navigation message. Apr 27 18:31:25 If you have an identical chip signal from your knowledge of the code, then you can construct a 2048 element table by multiplying over time the incoming signal with your own copy. Apr 27 18:31:50 In ideal conditions, one or two of these will indicate signal. Apr 27 18:32:00 the rest will just be noise. Apr 27 18:32:38 Sorry - I'm not making much sense ATM. Horribly tired. Apr 27 18:33:33 SpeedEvil - Hey, no problem :-) Apr 27 18:36:48 We should ask some of the P0 owners to send thes 80byte sequence to their gps. ;-) Apr 27 18:37:25 that at least show that there really is something in there. Apr 27 18:38:14 Right. Apr 27 18:40:56 Then putting a normal sirf3 next to the neo should get us the info, which sats the gl probably sees. ;) Apr 27 18:41:26 TimRiker: timmy! Apr 27 18:41:29 Yep. Apr 27 18:41:39 (I think, sirf3 also gives some pseudoranges... need to check the docs.) Apr 27 18:41:42 TimRiker: how the heck are ya? Apr 27 18:42:35 You don't really need pseudoranges that badly. Apr 27 18:42:44 As you can derive them without too much hastle. Apr 27 18:43:12 You mean from "I know my coords, and from the ephemeris, I know where the sats are"? Apr 27 18:43:19 hehe Apr 27 18:43:22 Basically, yes. Apr 27 18:43:40 * prpplague needs more coffee as he read "psuedoranges" as "psuedo-oranges" Apr 27 18:54:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] [[Main_Page/pl]] Apr 27 19:12:59 Just wondering, when I get the Wiki right, I need to follow the OpenEmbedded getting started and after that I need to use the SVN overlay from openmoko? Apr 27 19:14:27 yacc: To do what? Get qemu up and running? Apr 27 19:14:52 No compile the toolchain and some needed packages? Apr 27 19:15:03 Ah, yeah Apr 27 19:17:01 you don't actually need the svn overlay if you are going to use OE Apr 27 19:17:52 koen? Apr 27 19:18:57 everything you need is already in OE Apr 27 19:19:59 For a toolchain? Or also for the OpenMoko libraries? Apr 27 19:20:01 * prpplague jokes with koen Apr 27 19:20:10 yacc: everything Apr 27 19:20:12 hey prpplague Apr 27 19:20:17 koen: except for the medicine for stomach and head ache problems Apr 27 19:20:25 koen: other than that OE has what you need Apr 27 19:20:41 the overlay is only needed if you want to be bug-compatible with buildhost.openmoko.org Apr 27 19:21:01 prpplague: I have some nurofen here :)_ Apr 27 19:21:06 hehe Apr 27 19:21:12 heh Apr 27 19:21:53 Me wonders, OE uses monotone, doesn't it? Why a svn overlay? Stupid question? Apr 27 19:22:12 dunno Apr 27 19:22:38 I wouldn't use a centralized scm to save my life Apr 27 19:23:09 You must choose a location with no symlinks above it <= Why? And how many GB does one need? Apr 27 19:23:10 * balrog-kun wonder if OE is getting many more bug reports and code from random people now that openmoko uses it Apr 27 19:23:51 not yet Apr 27 19:23:52 balrog-kun: not really, since every openmoko user starts his sentence with "the makefile broke...." Apr 27 19:24:03 The full build takes some 10G Apr 27 19:24:16 SpeedEvil: 600megs over here Apr 27 19:24:27 koen: hah Apr 27 19:25:05 balrog-kun: that, and bugs get filed in the openmoko bugzilla Apr 27 19:27:54 but the fixes do find their way upstream i assume Apr 27 19:28:01 even when submitted by random people Apr 27 19:28:10 Oh right. Apr 27 19:28:12 sort off Apr 27 19:28:49 balrog-kun: I'd say that the 'hacks' go in svn and the proper 'fixes' into OE Apr 27 19:29:06 the svn overlay is too low priority to do 'right' Apr 27 19:29:22 koen: should I get you the valium? Apr 27 19:29:29 heh okay Apr 27 19:30:00 zecke: http://www.jalimo.org/wiki/doku.php Apr 27 19:30:10 koen: for openmoko I need to fetch the standard OE.mtn.bz2? Apr 27 19:30:12 YAJP - Yet another java project Apr 27 19:30:18 yacc: no Apr 27 19:31:27 koen which one then? Apr 27 19:31:40 dunno what openmoko uses Apr 27 19:32:13 hmmm? Apr 27 19:36:10 koen: Who might know that? Apr 27 19:56:26 Basically, is there any documentation how to get started with app developement? Apr 27 19:57:23 yacc: there is some Apr 27 19:57:36 mostly dealing the get the development environment up Apr 27 19:58:05 i'm sure there is, lots of people got started with the development Apr 27 19:58:25 download sources, build them, develop your app Apr 27 19:58:45 no need for emulators/crosscompilers/unicorns Apr 27 19:59:04 i'd argue about unicorns Apr 27 19:59:05 koen: you forgot the step ??? Apr 27 19:59:37 balrog-kun: seen the prices for unicorn food lately? Apr 27 19:59:56 koen: frankly no i haven't Apr 27 20:00:29 koen: Where do I find the sources? Apr 27 20:00:39 http://www.google.com/products?q=unicorn+food&btnG=Search+Products Apr 27 20:00:40 svn.openmoko.org Apr 27 20:01:05 yacc: I recommend reading tutorials in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page Apr 27 20:01:29 yacc: if you want to see the thing, just build qemu target with mokomakefile Apr 27 20:01:56 now I am trying to set-up Xoo development environment. I really couldn't figure out how to build a bridge between the host computer and qemu Apr 27 20:03:32 I've got more the need for a Moko conforming helloworld.c :) Apr 27 20:03:46 And after that the compiled version. Apr 27 20:04:02 Moo^^: what kind of bridge? Apr 27 20:04:26 the bridge that leads to the unicorn food Apr 27 20:04:55 oh that bridge Apr 27 20:05:17 balrog-kun: I want to feed some development files for qemu without building the image (nfs?). also, I'd like to run shell. Apr 27 20:05:33 didn't really found any documentation how to run shell in qemu Apr 27 20:06:52 older OpenMoko images had a terminal-emulator icon on the launcher Apr 27 20:07:33 work is in progress on usb support, so you can have a network over usb or a usb serial tty, if it works out Apr 27 20:10:56 balrog-kun: nice to hear! Apr 27 20:11:03 meanwhile I try to play around with Xoo Apr 27 20:11:43 desperately ,__, Apr 27 20:11:45 openmoko-panel-battery.c:26:17: error: apm.h: No such file or directory Apr 27 20:16:37 looks like this is a bug? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-April/000857.html Apr 27 20:16:45 could anyone hint a solution? Apr 27 20:17:52 how one can exclude certain packages from build? Apr 27 20:20:38 openmoko: 03mickey * r1863 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-battery_svn.bb: openmoko-panel-battery: add missing dependency to apmd Apr 27 20:21:05 well, looks like the fairy answered to my wishes! Apr 27 20:21:19 rofl Apr 27 20:21:48 Moo^^: looks like mickey is not yet asleep ;) Apr 27 20:22:01 does mickey irc? Apr 27 20:22:19 hey's mickey|zzZZzz Apr 27 20:23:03 * Moo^^ pats mickey|zzZZzz Apr 27 20:23:47 But back to the question, I've got svn.openmoko.org/trunk checked out, where do I start the build? *wonder* Apr 27 20:24:01 Moo^^: yes, Xoo is definitely a better tool for testing your programs Apr 27 20:24:04 sorry was on phone Apr 27 20:24:41 the qemu-neo1973 tries to be like the real phone, i think you wouldn't always test the programs on the phone when coding (if you had the phone) Apr 27 20:24:46 to illustrate my point: the dep on apmd was added 2 weeks ago to OE Apr 27 20:25:03 30fd35ee.. by rpurdie 2007-04-14: DEPENDS = "apmd" Apr 27 20:25:50 koen: is it because openmoko is not synced with openembedded head? Apr 27 20:26:06 dunno Apr 27 20:26:08 (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger Re: GPS GPL driver. Apr 27 20:26:20 yacc: read about build process in openmoko wiki. mokomakefile is shortcut to happiness - though it's not offical way to build anything. Apr 27 20:28:22 Moo^^: which page? Apr 27 20:30:04 yacc: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Apr 27 20:30:24 yacc: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo Apr 27 20:31:02 Moo^^: thx, found it :) Apr 27 20:33:23 Hmm, the MokoMakefile fetches bitbake 1.6, OE seems to recommend 1.8? Apr 27 20:36:22 I had no problems with Ubuntu Feisty Apr 27 20:43:30 Moo^^: Ubuntu Feisty? For what? Apr 27 20:45:39 <[g2]> koen, nice presentation :) Apr 27 20:49:13 counter Apr 27 20:49:14 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 03:10:44 (17.132 +-3.5 days) (1033;184) Apr 27 20:54:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Pudelfish]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Talk:Higher_level_language_options]] Apr 27 20:56:58 morning Apr 27 20:57:55 Morning. Apr 27 20:59:02 rwhitby: Just wondered why your Makefile fetches bitbake 1.6, while OE recommends 1.8? Apr 27 20:59:33 yacc: cause OM has patches to 1.6 that haven't been ported to 1.8 yet Apr 27 20:59:43 Oh :) Apr 27 20:59:43 (to do the remote version retrieval stuff) Apr 27 21:00:27 henryk is working on porting those patches to bitbake 1.8, and as soon as that happens MokoMakefile will move (with the OM core team) Apr 27 21:06:46 there are two proyects in the openmoko's gforge that seems to be created by bots Apr 27 21:07:30 nonickatm: remember that a human has to approve them Apr 27 21:08:09 is anonymous svn access working on projects.openmoko.org yet? Apr 27 21:08:10 I am refering to http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/ttosss/ and http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/coach/ Apr 27 21:08:26 those look too suspicious Apr 27 21:08:31 hey rwhitby. have you considered adding xoo target for mokomakefile? Apr 27 21:08:55 rwhitby: the java dudes pasted a svn link a while ago Apr 27 21:08:57 rwhitby: Just a small problem. When the mtn call fails because a IO error, calling make setup again does not fetches the missing revisions it seems. Apr 27 21:09:22 rwhitby: so the svn situation has improved, but I didn't try checking out stuff, only using the viewvc plugin Apr 27 21:09:55 rwhitby: see http://rafb.net/p/dad3su24.html Apr 27 21:11:46 koen: that's a good sign. time for me to try again then. Apr 27 21:12:21 yacc: make update will Apr 27 21:12:57 so after a make setup that was interrupted I should make update instead? Apr 27 21:13:05 oh, hang on. Apr 27 21:13:44 yeah, that is a problem case. if the download and gunzip works, but the initial pull to get the latest revs fails. Apr 27 21:13:57 then you don't have the frozen rev, so the checkout fails too. Apr 27 21:14:20 dunno how to fix that without incurring the initial pull every time setup is run. Apr 27 21:15:09 Yeah, but that's somehow unfunny for people with connections less than 100% reliable? Apr 27 21:15:20 rwhitby: what should I do in that case? Apr 27 21:16:16 Ok, I'm doing the pull manually. Apr 27 21:17:46 yacc: yeah, "mtn pull" should fix it. Apr 27 21:17:51 (since the defaults will be set) Apr 27 21:18:17 Well, actually, I just copywasted the command make has output. Apr 27 21:19:16 rwhitby: At least the pull seems to resume where it stopped :) Apr 27 21:24:48 rwhitby: what about recording a stamp that the pull was sucessful only when the mtn call exits with 0? Apr 27 21:26:45 yacc: it does that, but I'm also checking for the existence of the OE.mtn file so that the OE.mtn file didn't get re-downloaded just to add the stamp (which only got added recently to the makefile) Apr 27 21:27:09 I guess I can take that out now - everyone should have run at least one command that would have updated the stamps since then. Apr 27 21:27:29 yeah, but your objection is that mtn pull takes a long time, even it does not pull anything? Apr 27 21:29:17 that, and the load on the server. Apr 27 21:29:30 (openmoko does not have it's own monotone server yet) Apr 27 21:32:30 hmmm. Apr 27 21:32:50 rwhitby: so you only pull updates for make update? Apr 27 21:32:55 yep Apr 27 21:33:19 and only if it's not a frozen version Apr 27 21:33:30 so make update doesn't touch the monotone server at all at the moment. Apr 27 21:35:00 What's a frozen version? *wonder* Apr 27 21:35:43 openmoko uses a specific OE revision, not the head. Apr 27 21:38:22 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r91 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Finished the transition to using stamps instead of existence of files. Apr 27 21:38:41 yacc: should be fixed now Apr 27 21:39:26 Moo^: tell me about xoo - what should MokoMakefile do? Apr 27 21:39:51 rwhitby: so after the "manual" mtn pull finishes, should I run make setup or make update first? Apr 27 21:41:07 now, if any of those steps fails, it will retry from the start. so you will probably want to touch the stamp file so it doesn't do that. Apr 27 21:41:46 rwhitby: I was thinking adding automatic x86/Xoo target like qemu is now Apr 27 21:42:06 Moo^: where are the build instructions? Apr 27 21:42:15 though I am not sure how to do it, since local.conf is shared between builds Apr 27 21:43:01 rwhitby: I try to live with these: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo Apr 27 21:58:29 counter Apr 27 21:58:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 02:01:28 (17.084 +-3.5 days) (1034;184) Apr 27 22:00:44 * mwester bought a treo instead... maybe I'll have some spare $$ to buy the neo over the summer, but couldn't tolerate the stupid blackberry any longer, and the incessant Neo delays just got a bit much. Apr 27 22:02:31 hi Apr 27 22:05:05 mwester: treo650? Apr 27 22:05:17 Yep, used. Apr 27 22:06:02 I'm disappointed, I had hoped to use the $$ for the Neo, but perhaps later instead. Apr 27 22:06:31 I consider the useability of the Treo650 to be the benchmark that I will measure the Neo against. Apr 27 22:07:36 Well, certainly the Blackberry wins absolutely no awards -- the UI is among the worst I've ever been forced to use! Apr 27 22:08:03 I guess the Blackberry would serve as an example of how OpenMoko should *NOT* behave ;) Apr 27 22:13:53 mwester: ah, you're a valuable resource then :) Apr 27 22:38:38 Moo^: so by building for xoo, you just mean a MACHINE=x86 build of normal openmoko-devel-image, right? Apr 27 22:40:09 rwhitby: It seems like overkill to me to build the entire rootfs for xoo as you basically just need everything in OM-2007 of the OpenMoko SVN to be built Apr 27 22:41:18 ie. openmoko-libs and the applications - the rest (d-bus & friends) should be available on the host system already I figure Apr 27 22:41:22 abraxa_: nod. does someone have known good build instructions for that? Apr 27 22:41:50 (that doesn't require qmake, cause I can't get qmake for all the platforms I test MokoMakefile on) Apr 27 22:42:29 I did build those a while ago but in the meanwhile I forgot what caveats I came across and how I might've fixed them =x Apr 27 22:42:59 if someone wants to write the wiki page with build instructions, I'd be happy to add it to mokomakefile. Apr 27 22:44:26 Muchly appreciated Apr 27 22:44:42 i don't think it would be too heavy the Xoo rootfs was a separate, optional target Apr 27 22:45:01 s/heavy/heavy if/ Apr 27 22:45:02 balrog-kun meant: i don't think it would be too heavy if the Xoo rootfs was a separate, optional target Apr 27 22:46:11 rwhitby: not sure about it, I am still trying to get step 1 done :) Apr 27 22:56:33 mtn is slow. Wondering is mtn 0.34 faster than 0.31? Apr 27 23:05:20 yacc nope. just not fully compatible 5-) .. propably need to migrate the db then Apr 27 23:14:11 roh: So how do I make it faster? Apr 27 23:14:29 It somehow feels like using the SVN plugin in eclipse, ... Apr 27 23:25:01 yacc: rewrite it? I've often wondered how it is possible for software to take so long to modify so few bits on disk with so much CPU consumption as monotone... Apr 27 23:29:48 mwester: Maybe monotone builds some hashes of all files within each package to check whether it needs to be updated? That's what I'm tempted to assume at least... Apr 27 23:30:59 it actually does a cryptographic verification of all revisions Apr 27 23:31:18 or something really secure like that. Apr 27 23:31:33 I've thought about what it might be doing as I've waited and watched many sync operations, and even if it were written in Perl, one would expect that a crypto algorithm applied to 100MB of data shouldn't take several hours on a 2.8GHz P4... :( Apr 27 23:31:52 * rwhitby wonders if all the time wasted in really secure stuff like that outweighs the few times that open source stuff has been trojaned ... Apr 27 23:33:30 I've meant to try to profile the code, but I've never gotten 'round to it... Apr 27 23:34:49 rwhitby: git lives with secure hashes too, and yet it has quite a different performance feeling. Apr 27 23:35:12 yacc: yup Apr 27 23:35:23 * rwhitby is not defending monotone Apr 27 23:36:02 yacc: monotone uses certificates, rather than just hashes like git (I think) Apr 27 23:36:08 rwhitby: different is perhaps the wrong word. It usually takes longer to type the command than the command takes to execute. Apr 27 23:36:27 rwhitby: git has the same mechanism to crypto sign specific releases. Apr 27 23:36:39 same is perhaps to strong a word. Apr 27 23:36:49 yacc: yeah, but I think monotone does that signature for *every* revision. Apr 27 23:38:35 rwhitby: Still doesn't explain it => crypto signing/verification of small files is not really a workload for current CPUs. => MD5/SHA1 of huge amounts of files take time, but git does these too. Apr 27 23:40:32 yacc: nod Apr 27 23:41:21 * yacc wants a new laptop. *whine* Apr 27 23:41:53 Mine is so old, ... Apr 27 23:53:44 rwhitby: could it be possible to reduce the number of locales for build? any speed up with this? Apr 27 23:58:54 Moo^: not with frozen OE - when OM moves to OE head we can. Apr 28 00:13:15 how dependencies are defined in oe? openmoko-panel-battery build is failing and it has been stated that it is due to missing apmd dependency Apr 28 00:13:22 i'd like to fix this for my local build Apr 28 00:18:20 Moo^: Just update it, Mickey fixed it already. Apr 28 00:32:17 is anyone here running an image from the OM buildhost and could pastebin their /etc/ipkg/*feed.conf? Apr 28 00:34:00 nm, got it Apr 28 00:35:14 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/rootfs/etc/ipkg/ Apr 28 00:35:26 (for others looking for stuff from official builds) Apr 28 00:39:59 FYI, the the feed.conf isn't working in any case ;) Apr 28 00:43:38 http://rafb.net/p/rtLwCz26.html <- fixed feeds Apr 28 01:34:15 ../setup-env ;bitbake openmoko-devel-image Apr 28 01:34:15 NOTE: Not using a cache. Set CACHE = to enable. Apr 28 01:34:25 strange problem Apr 28 01:38:43 Readon: source ../setup-env Apr 28 01:38:54 or . ../setup-env Apr 28 01:39:12 it needs to affect the current environment, not that of a sub-shell. Apr 28 01:39:42 Readon: where are the incorrect instructions, so I can fix them? Apr 28 01:39:59 i got it Apr 28 01:40:09 . ../setup-env could work Apr 28 01:40:52 which file does CACHE directory is assigned? Apr 28 01:52:08 that's a red herring cause by the other variables not being set Apr 28 01:52:15 where is the incorrect information you were following? Apr 28 01:52:34 is there a way to get a qemu instance on-net? Apr 28 01:53:32 the problem was solved, i am just interest about that. Apr 28 01:55:43 wow, doing an update was apparently a bad idea; I'm getting brokenness about /home/pj/moko/qemu/openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/usb-linux-gadget.c:24:32: linux/usb_gadgetfs.h: No such file or directory Apr 28 01:56:31 Readon: you still haven't said where the incorrect information was that you were following ... we need to fix it before others have the same problem. Apr 28 01:57:16 pjz: mokomakefile qemu target? Apr 28 01:57:20 rwhitby: yup Apr 28 01:57:31 rwhitby: well, build-qemu, but yeah Apr 28 01:58:23 yep, same here. Apr 28 01:58:49 I need to add that to my autobuild list Apr 28 01:58:56 I should set up CruiseControl using MokoMakefile and ... Apr 28 01:59:01 heh Apr 28 01:59:09 I see you already have :) Apr 28 01:59:23 what's CruiseControl? Apr 28 01:59:36 continuous-build tool Apr 28 01:59:48 rwhitby, it is my fault, it's not a bug. i use ../setup-env but . ../setup-env. it's the point Apr 28 02:00:08 rwhitby: usually used for java projects Apr 28 02:00:19 Readon: ok, we need to highlight that in the doco then Apr 28 02:00:37 pjz: I just have a Makefile in my home directory, that makes all the projects that I work on. Apr 28 02:00:46 rwhitby: http://cruisecontrol.sf.net Apr 28 02:01:10 rwhitby: you set it up and it monitors your scm and does a rebuild if it changes and emails you if the build fails Apr 28 02:01:20 ah, I'll just add build-qemu to the all target in MokoMakefile Apr 28 02:01:52 rwhitby: also has a web status page and logs the failure to a file so you can peer at it later and etc Apr 28 02:01:59 rwhitby: we use it at work, it's quite nice Apr 28 02:02:29 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r92 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added build-qemu to 'all' target. Apr 28 02:04:16 rwhitby: is it possible to do builds with two different build/conf/local.conf files in the same tree safely? or will they step on each other? Apr 28 02:04:48 pjz: I believe it should be fine, if you are only changing MACHINE Apr 28 02:05:07 (due to OE's multimachine support) Apr 28 02:05:30 rwhitby: yeah, I'm mainly hoping to save update/download time Apr 28 02:05:47 rwhitby: well, and disk space :) Apr 28 02:06:28 pjz: update and downloads would be shared. disk space is better saved using rm_work Apr 28 02:08:03 which reminds me, I should do an x86 build now that the battery bug has been fixed Apr 28 02:08:13 rwhitby, do you know which viariable set CACHE directory? Apr 28 02:08:21 rwhitby: and build-qemu and openmoko-devel-image can definitely exist in the same dir? Apr 28 02:08:39 Readon: not off the top of my head. Apr 28 02:08:54 pjz: build-qemu happens in a separate subdir of build Apr 28 02:09:32 rwhitby: right, I was thinking of flash-qemu-local Apr 28 02:09:52 rwhitby: which, for all I know actually calls openmoko-devel-image itself Apr 28 02:10:37 okay, nevermind, I actually bothered to read the Makefile :) Apr 28 02:12:04 rwhitby, i find it myself, thanks Apr 28 02:13:14 rwhitby: I've been away for a few days. Has anyone had success on an x86_64 development host? Apr 28 02:14:38 DukeOfURL: I've been away for 10 days, so I dunno. Apr 28 02:24:46 rwhitby: do any targets overwrite build/conf/local.conf? Apr 28 02:26:27 pjz: no, once it's setup, it's under the user's control only Apr 28 02:26:39 that's a key point Apr 28 02:27:04 rwhitby: I was just trying to figure out the best way to add a pc/neo switch into MokoMakefile Apr 28 02:28:10 rwhitby: so 'make setup' doesn't overwrite it? Apr 28 02:31:02 pjz: not if it already exists. see the setup-config target. Apr 28 02:32:25 pjz: yeah, I'm wondering how to do that to be able to build both. I'll need to ask koen how he does his multimachine builds. Apr 28 02:32:44 I suspect you leave MACHINE out of local.conf and then provide it on the bitbake command line Apr 28 02:33:00 rwhitby: oh, I was just thinking of a 'switch' that would put the right thing in local.conf Apr 28 02:33:17 rwhitby: using sed or something Apr 28 02:34:41 rwhitby: so 'make setup-pc ; make openmoko-devel-image' would build you a pc version and 'make setup-neo ; make openmoko-devel-image' would build you neo software Apr 28 02:34:57 yeah, something like that could be done Apr 28 02:38:42 setup-machine-* which sets MACHINE= Apr 28 02:39:49 rwhitby: want the diff? :) Apr 28 02:40:28 I'm thinking of a pattern rule, which can be extended automatically when new devices are added. Apr 28 02:40:44 pastebin the diff anyway Apr 28 02:41:03 rwhitby: oh, good idea Apr 28 02:42:02 http://www.pastebin.ca/462154 Apr 28 02:43:14 pjz: nah, that changes the order and surprises the user. Apr 28 02:43:36 sed -i Apr 28 02:43:42 oh, so swap the order :) Apr 28 02:44:08 ah, but the user may put something before MACHINE ... Apr 28 02:44:10 I didn't feel like constructing the right regexp to get rid of ^MACHINE=.* Apr 28 02:44:26 good point Apr 28 02:49:50 pjz: http://www.pastebin.ca/462163 Apr 28 02:52:40 http://www.pastebin.ca/462165 Apr 28 02:52:43 heh, I lose Apr 28 02:53:09 never duel me on Makefiles ... Apr 28 02:53:34 I'll add a setup-machine-neo convenience target too, which will track the latest neo released. Apr 28 02:54:26 ooh, yours is pretty Apr 28 02:55:52 you assume they don't change the spacing around the =, which I guess is fine. I just replaced lines that started with MACHINE. Probably should have made that 'MACHINE[= ]' Apr 28 02:56:15 I don't know how flexible the local.conf file is **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 28 02:59:56 2007