**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu May 03 02:59:56 2007 May 03 03:18:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] May 03 05:19:28 Anyone around? May 03 05:39:22 Hi, where will they be selling this phone? May 03 05:39:22 cableroy: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 03 05:39:50 ok May 03 05:39:52 nice bot :P May 03 06:39:43 boah I hate stgit May 03 07:13:43 morning May 03 07:29:36 anyone know how can i play around wiht May 03 07:29:46 the shell in the qemu image May 03 07:53:16 Heya, everyone May 03 07:53:29 hi May 03 07:53:30 (I still can't access openmoko wiki from my home machine :-() May 03 07:54:58 ...strange... actually I can't access it from specific browser. Will try restarting it. May 03 07:56:16 ...that helped, good. May 03 07:57:31 mornin' May 03 07:58:14 moin May 03 07:59:21 Good morning! May 03 08:01:48 Ouch, gps uses 30bit words internally :-( May 03 08:02:38 pavelm: Why ouch? May 03 08:02:48 morning May 03 08:03:11 pavelm: where is your blog? or does it only exist in some non-english language? May 03 08:04:22 yacc: It is going to be hell to decode. May 03 08:04:50 hopscotch: It is syndicated from http://planet.kernel.org/ May 03 08:05:15 ah, righto May 03 08:09:52 (plus I have my non-english blog, but that's for horseback riding) May 03 08:10:17 ah, i guess that's the one i saw last night May 03 08:10:23 but i didn't get a word :) May 03 08:11:21 hopscotch: Yes, I went to bad without pressing the "submit" button. Sorry about that. May 03 08:13:41 :) May 03 08:13:46 no problem May 03 08:25:18 30 bit? Wacky. May 03 08:26:01 30bits, 24 data, 6 parity. (http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/databits.gif). I'd like to know what parity scheme it uses, but those pdfs are long :-( May 03 08:26:31 Oh - right. May 03 08:26:37 You mean the underlying data. May 03 08:26:53 I don't think we need to worry about that for a bit. May 03 08:27:55 Though actually. May 03 08:28:09 speed: I'd like to locate them in the streams. In particular, each subpacket starts with telemetry word -- and that one is constant. May 03 08:28:10 We don't really know how it outputs bits. May 03 08:28:22 yeah - I was thinking of the telemetry/HOW May 03 08:28:28 and the time. May 03 08:28:44 Time you can almost exactly get from the NMEA May 03 08:28:52 With a little processing. May 03 08:30:51 There is a GPL package that does all of this already - can convert from the raw bitstream to a position. May 03 08:31:03 I don't remember the name. May 03 08:31:20 speed: I have link somewhere. opensourcegps or something. May 03 08:31:25 Maybe. May 03 08:31:34 speed: aha... yep, I should look there for the parity computation. May 03 08:34:52 Has anyone gotten the neo's GPS to work - I've been asleep :) May 03 08:36:08 Not yet, sorry. May 03 08:36:19 Just wondering. May 03 08:36:46 Annoyingly, for the next couple of days, I'm working on my car, trying to get it mobile. May 03 08:36:58 Which involves fitting a DIY ECU, from scratch. May 03 08:37:18 (Not running linux) May 03 08:38:59 ?ECU? May 03 08:39:25 speed: You should get simpler car, something without electronics :-) May 03 08:40:16 * Stephmw hands pavelm some tinder, wood and a blanket... who needs mobiles phones when smoke signals work just as well? May 03 08:43:33 Well - perhaps. May 03 08:43:44 I'd also like one with reasonable fuel economy. May 03 08:44:04 cars without electronics are hard to get nowadays May 03 08:44:15 And one with an ECU I have circuit diagrams for, and have actually soldered together, and have source code for, and has linux tuning tools ++ May 03 08:44:16 We've got two rice-cups of the same make and model, the other one is '89 without any computers onboard, and a '91 with fuel injection and ecu etc. Quess which one works and which one doesn't. XD May 03 08:45:09 * pavelm thinks about pigeons with cds attached to them. It should still have better bandwidth than gprs :) May 03 08:45:37 This is the pinnacle of French automotive engineering. May 03 08:45:46 Well - not really. May 03 08:46:05 larstiq: well... actually they are very easy to get, but you'd not want to use one in a city. May 03 08:46:29 ECU isn't basically complex. It's just annoying to setup, especially if you've got no running engine to pull timings off. May 03 08:47:15 However, I plan to be selling the ECUs assembled, with after-sales support. May 03 08:48:10 With an optional bluetooth module to let phones act as keys. May 03 08:48:26 * pavelm remembers tractor problem: How do you shut down engine that needs no electricity at all, and has no obvious shutdown button? Key only turns off the lights :-) May 03 08:48:38 Do not put hand over air intake. May 03 08:48:44 People have had hands sucked into them. May 03 08:49:02 cut off air, fuel, or stall it. May 03 08:49:21 Especially fun if you're running in an atmosphere that provides its own fuel. May 03 08:49:25 solution was to find highest gear by experimentation, then apply brakes and release clutch quickly. May 03 08:49:28 (dust, ...) May 03 08:49:46 speed: that's possible? I mean, running on dust? May 03 08:49:50 Yes. May 03 08:49:58 Stuff like flour. May 03 08:50:03 Or coal dust. May 03 08:50:12 A running diesel is _really_ insensitive to fuel. May 03 08:51:25 Vapours too, that's the more common case, as the filter will usually catch flammable particulates. May 03 08:53:29 speed: Fortunately I was operating that tractor in the fields... May 03 08:55:31 I wonder how dumb the GPS is. It's not talking often enough for us to need to read each bit from each satellite. May 03 08:56:16 speed: I'd hope it to decode 30bit words and send them to us... that would be apppx. twice per second May 03 08:57:14 mickey|bbl: http://linuxdevices.com/files/article078/fst-fancypants-celf2007.pdf seen that? May 03 08:57:17 50Hz raw datarate or so, or 400 bits per 8 satellites per second. May 03 08:58:37 speed: would you expect it to send one bit per bit received, or something more fancy, like <0x80 is 0, around 0x80 it is unsure, >0x80 is one? May 03 08:58:51 Ok. May 03 08:59:01 1189 bytes are recieved from the GPS over time. May 03 08:59:31 between 1177429218 1177429314 May 03 09:00:21 Or 12 bytes/sec May 03 09:01:04 This is around a quarter of the data that they will be sending. May 03 09:01:09 hmm, that's less than 400bits per 8satellites estimate. May 03 09:01:20 The lock time will cut out a fair bit of that. May 03 09:01:47 I would have expected it to be sending something like a 2-3 bit value per bit May 03 09:02:06 Value and certainty. May 03 09:02:36 speed: that's bad. That will be hard to decipher :-( May 03 09:02:59 True. May 03 09:03:40 But otherwise telling when the signal has faded in the middle of a packet is nasty. May 03 09:04:44 Err. May 03 09:04:45 Oops. May 03 09:04:56 11886 bytes are recieved from the GPS. May 03 09:05:15 So, around 2 times the data that's recieved from the GPS. May 03 09:05:19 That's more promising. May 03 09:05:49 Maybe 2.5 times, giving some time for locking. May 03 09:06:11 It may not actually be reading all it can. May 03 09:06:34 Just asking for some satellites signal phases at later points when it's got a lock. May 03 09:07:15 As it doesn't need any data they are sending. May 03 09:07:36 hmm, incoming packet #0 seems to have timestamp at the end. May 03 09:07:46 GPS wrapped in foil. would be an intersting datapoint. May 03 09:10:08 pavelm: dump question: are you sure you have GPS on? (to quote Werner from mailing list: "arch/arm/common/gta01_pm_gps.c should take care of powering it up.") May 03 09:10:09 Wrapped almost completely in foil, with a dish pointed at one satellite would be another nice - but harder to do one. Especially as a cold start, where it'll be downloading the almanac. May 03 09:10:20 aloril: these are dumps./ May 03 09:10:23 From the tomtom. May 03 09:10:28 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol May 03 09:10:36 s:dump:dumb: ;-) May 03 09:10:59 * aloril means Neo1973, not that strace dump, cat, etc.. experiments are futile if GPS is off May 03 09:11:23 There is a fair bit to be gotten out of the existing dump from the tomtom though. May 03 09:11:28 Has the same chip. May 03 09:11:43 SpeedEvil: agree May 03 09:11:44 And we have NMEA outputs that correspond with the inputs. May 03 09:11:50 Which we wouldn't with the neo. May 03 09:12:00 (without anohter GPS) May 03 09:12:04 * SpeedEvil waves. May 03 09:12:39 * koen is still waiting for someone to write a small C apps to initialize the hammerhead May 03 09:14:39 koen: do you have an php/matlab example yet? May 03 09:18:29 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]] May 03 09:21:03 koen: Initing hammerhead should be about 10 lines of code, right? May 03 09:23:37 had anyone succeeded to communicate with the Neo's hammerhead? May 03 09:23:49 * balrog-kun suspects there is some little detail about initing the hammerhead on Neo that we don't know about May 03 09:25:15 hi! May 03 09:26:12 @ find keroro May 03 09:26:16 @find keroro May 03 09:26:29 -_- May 03 09:28:24 looked at the fancypants slides.. long and boring... and no real info. May 03 09:28:32 is it GPL at least? May 03 09:29:40 pavelm: no, but they are thinking about making it BSD May 03 09:31:32 koen: I wonder how the Han Solo quote matches with "working with the community" May 03 09:32:19 zecke: they send their patches upstream, but don't care about attribution May 03 09:32:46 awesome May 03 09:33:50 they are not as evil as they seem :) May 03 09:34:26 koen: of course, one more piece of free code is nice.. but I hoped I could run same/similar code on openmoko and PC. May 03 09:34:51 koen: plus... I'd wait for the code to be actually released. May 03 09:34:56 pwd May 03 09:35:06 * Stephmw changes window May 03 09:35:11 * Stephmw tries that again May 03 09:35:23 zecke: did you see the efl python bindings k-s did? May 03 09:35:51 no May 03 09:43:57 counter May 03 09:43:59 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 14:16:00 (11.594 +-3.5 days) (1077;192) May 03 09:44:10 Lies, damn lies, and counters... May 03 09:44:20 *g* May 03 09:44:24 To misquote Gentle Ben. May 03 09:45:39 hmm, phase1 was supposed to be few weeks ago, right? Are there any news? Testing software? May 03 09:45:48 Basically. May 03 09:45:56 They had problems with the candidate PCB. May 03 09:46:01 They rerolled I think. May 03 09:46:09 Then they had problems getting screens. May 03 09:46:14 Which still isn't resolved. May 03 09:47:05 Is software ready? phase0 with right software would be almost usable machine. May 03 09:47:10 ...with _big_ batteries :-). May 03 09:47:39 Not really sure. May 03 09:56:46 openmoko: 03andrew * r1899 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/neo1973.c: Pass correct RAM size in kernel parameters (currently unused) - spotted by BobOfDoom. May 03 09:57:17 doh, nätet gick ner May 03 09:57:27 oops wrong channel May 03 09:57:36 inget problem :-) May 03 09:57:53 :) May 03 10:04:20 det är ju ett problem, jag vill inte läsa svenska May 03 10:04:25 ;) May 03 10:04:29 Inte jag heller.. :P May 03 10:05:03 it's a free internet ;-) May 03 10:06:19 Yeah, and /ignore works >:D May 03 10:08:41 Puhukaa ny $#%@¥ Jotain ymmärrettävää kieltä! May 03 10:08:58 well said May 03 10:08:59 wtf? May 03 10:09:29 i think its finish or however you spell that May 03 10:09:41 the language nobody understands May 03 10:10:03 oddly, the ä came out OK in the finnish, but not in the swedish... May 03 10:10:25 tonyg, utf-8 / latin(1|9) May 03 10:10:27 yeah May 03 10:10:35 irc classic vs. modern irc presumably May 03 10:10:36 utf-8 > all May 03 10:10:50 seriously May 03 10:10:52 :P May 03 10:11:54 I expected this to be english-only channel. May 03 10:11:55 I don't see the difference (irssi recode <3) May 03 10:12:43 7join #openmoko-fi May 03 10:12:44 "oops" May 03 10:12:58 "oops" indeed ^^ May 03 10:34:42 openmoko: 03thomas * r1900 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/icons/ (16 files in 15 dirs): icons: update makefiles May 03 10:43:53 is it correct that the gps' power_core_1v5 is still 0 after cat power_up > power_sequence on gta01bv3? May 03 10:44:41 I tried to make a C program to cat the first two strings from the tomtom log into ttySAC1: http://en.pastebin.ca/468771 May 03 10:44:49 but all it returns is a single 0x00 May 03 10:46:00 (and when it runs the first time after power_up, after that the read just blocks) May 03 10:49:21 pH5: Do you own a multimeter? May 03 10:49:39 pH5: do you have an EABI binary for that? May 03 10:50:11 (to put a little bit of foil and plastic into the battery + terminal, to measure the current. May 03 10:50:25 To see if the current changes when the GPS is turned on., May 03 10:50:26 pH5: you mean you could read a 0x00 from ttySAC1 after that? May 03 10:50:43 that's good news i think May 03 10:50:58 pH5: http://rafb.net/p/HF2HvF23.html May 03 10:52:37 koen: ok, same here. http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/hhtest May 03 10:52:56 SpeedEvil: I think I don't May 03 10:53:11 unfortunately (I did, but I haven't seen it for a long time) May 03 10:54:54 pH5: same results here May 03 10:55:03 nothing, and on power-down + powerup a singe 0x00 May 03 10:55:44 how do we measure power performance May 03 11:06:03 SpeedEvil: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-May/000906.html May 03 11:15:25 True. May 03 11:15:33 It would be nice to know that the GPS is in fact on. May 03 11:16:34 it would be nice to know that the GPS hardware is functionally attached, but I suppose the FIC guys have info to check that ;] May 03 11:16:49 yogesh_: I was meaning the trivial method. You take some thin double sided tape. Attach foil on each side. Slip this into between the + battery contact and the spring that presses against it. May 03 11:17:07 Connect multimeter set on current to each sides of the foil. May 03 11:20:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]] May 03 11:34:01 does GPS hardware really use that much current? May 03 11:39:45 Interesting thing on 21CN (phone network upgrade) on radio 4 (UK) May 03 11:39:49 Stephmw: no. May 03 11:39:53 It'll be measurable though. May 03 11:41:13 I'd be very surprised if it doesn't take say 5% of the 'normal' power. May 03 11:41:29 I'd expect it to be 10-15% May 03 11:47:01 are we doing anything about the hammerhead's clock inputs? datasheets^Wadvertisement pdfs say it needs a 10-40MHz reference clock and 32kHz rtc signal - could those be switched off? May 03 11:47:21 * koen feels a bv5 coming May 03 11:47:43 It AIUI genereates its own clocks. May 03 11:47:49 With a crystal. May 03 11:48:35 So when the power is switched off, it goes off. May 03 11:49:28 SpeedEvil: look at http://www.globalocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/HAMMERHEAD_PB.pdf (linked from OM wiki) May 03 11:50:01 WRT? May 03 11:50:16 on the second page there is a diagram where it looks like it needs 'VCXO' and 32kHz clocks to drive a PLL May 03 11:50:31 wrt? May 03 11:50:43 With Regards To May 03 11:50:47 hang on May 03 11:52:03 Actually then. May 03 11:52:10 with respect to May 03 11:52:10 It looks like that'll be an external module. May 03 11:53:25 It _might_ - if the design of the CPU clock scheme is just right - be able to share that. May 03 11:53:29 I'm really unsure though. May 03 11:53:45 But that would imply that the GPS would only run in fast mode. May 03 11:54:16 I can't imagine that they'd be running the VCXO all the time, it'll draw comparatively a lot of power. May 03 11:54:46 the RTC signal can come straight from the CPU IIRC. May 03 11:55:52 An interesting question is what's the standby power, and how fast we can load the chip with the correct info so it's in a similar state to if it'd been powered off. May 03 11:56:14 if it'd not been powered off. May 03 11:58:54 * pH5 would like to see a real PMB2520 data sheet. May 03 11:59:09 what could provide the reference clock on the neo? May 03 11:59:34 It's almost certain to simply be a canned [1-4]0Mhz VCXO May 03 12:00:20 The 32khz clock can IIRC be gotten from the CPU. May 03 12:03:18 SpeedEvil: so you assume it is running all the time? May 03 12:04:28 I dunno. May 03 12:04:32 It may or may not be. May 03 12:04:47 Oh May 03 12:04:54 if you mean the VCXO, almost certainly not. May 03 12:05:09 It'll be switched, unless they've made an oops. May 03 12:07:04 pH5: there's nothing much interesting in it May 03 12:08:05 in the tomtom log there is a part where they open "/proc/clocks" May 03 12:08:24 balrog-kun: internal documents, then :) May 03 12:12:28 can anyone tell me if programming a GSM for actual phone-call-like behaviour is similar to programming the old voice-fax-modems in the mid-90s: ie. using hayes commands to set things up and then getting raw audio down a serial port? May 03 12:12:43 i'm just curious about how complex that aspect of the openmoko code will be May 03 12:12:45 or, is May 03 12:13:13 tonyg: AT commands, but those will be abstracted by libgsmd May 03 12:14:11 the CLK pin of the hammerhead is wired to a chip called DSB321SD, which has all other pins wired to ground except VCC which connects to VTCXO_2V8 May 03 12:15:13 balrog-kun: thanks! May 03 12:15:49 koen, ah ok. I'd imagine libgsmd is going to be pretty lightweight, then? May 03 12:15:57 not a lot of low-level bit-twiddling? :-) May 03 12:16:35 tonyg: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=libgsmd0 May 03 12:16:58 thanks May 03 12:21:27 looks great. May 03 12:23:18 balrog-kun: what board revision is that? for gta01bv3 the power_tcxo_2v8 control is replaced by power_core_1v5 and gps_power_2v8_set doesn't do a thing. May 03 12:24:43 pH5: this is GTA01Bv3 precisely May 03 12:25:59 if I try to turn on 1v5, 2v5 shuts off May 03 12:26:43 * pH5 tries to understand where VTCXO_2V8 is switched on then. May 03 12:27:31 lemme check what else is connected to VTCXO_2V8 May 03 12:31:36 it's connected to IOVDD2.8V of the pmu chip (the PCF50606) and through a chip called RT9193-28PU5 to the cpu's GPG9 (a gpio) May 03 12:32:02 the GPG9 is the one that enables the RT91... chip May 03 12:33:10 RT91? Huh? May 03 12:33:50 there's plenty of small ICs with 5 or 10 pins only, like this one May 03 12:33:51 GTA01_GPIO_GPS_EN_3V3 / GTA01_GPIO_GPS_EN_2V8 are defined to be GPG9 in gta01.h for Bv3 May 03 12:34:56 What are you guys trying to track down anyway? May 03 12:35:15 2V8 is only used for Bv2, so the 3V3 switch *should* turn on the reference clock, right? May 03 12:35:44 Elrond: I'm trying to understand whether the GPS chip gets it's reference clock input. May 03 12:36:09 i don't know, the GPG9 should turn that clock on, i believe, whatever it is defined as May 03 12:36:28 pH5 - Oh, yuck. Yet another "not switched on correctly" bug with the gps?! May 03 12:36:30 i don't know if it needs setting another bit in the PCF50606 registers May 03 12:37:48 6:30am in the Rockies May 03 12:38:49 6 May 03 12:38:58 Elrond: i don't know. at this time all we can say is I don't get a reaction from the gps chip. could as well be my mistake, I'm a serial n00b. May 03 12:40:00 pH5: nobody got any reaction so far afaik (from the people on this channel) and several persons have tried May 03 12:40:37 Right. Several tried. May 03 12:41:56 balrog-kun: yeah, note how I switched from "we" to "I" in the middle of a sentence. damn egocentrism ;) May 03 12:42:54 ;) May 03 12:43:06 BTW: Is the whole legal side of thise gps thing now cleared? May 03 12:59:14 Not AFAIK. May 03 12:59:56 IMOTIANAL, As long as FIC doesn't supply or support the GPL GPS driver, there is very little risk. May 03 13:00:47 They'd need advice from lawyers in that field before shipping to the US an open source driver. May 03 13:01:22 Years of jailtime per offence, and unlimited fines are not fun. May 03 13:02:20 yeah, the land of the free May 03 13:04:03 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=akGPeXiHWN2k&refer=uk - for example - anywhere they've got an extradition treaty with too. May 03 13:05:03 i think the GPL GPS driver would be entirely legal, its only illegal part is the making of it using a disassembly of the original driver, but so far afaik the disassembly wasn't used May 03 13:05:16 It's not that legality which is the problem. May 03 13:05:22 It's arms control legislation. May 03 13:05:32 and doesn't have to be used, and even if it is used, that's impossible to prove May 03 13:05:43 It's not use. May 03 13:05:47 It's import or export. May 03 13:05:56 ah, ok May 03 13:06:06 i didn't understand the legal issue then May 03 13:06:15 On a strict reading of the law, the neo, with open source GPS may require a DOD import license. May 03 13:06:47 so ship binary to US :p May 03 13:06:51 The next section of the legislation deals with nuclear weapons test equipment, and the previous one satellite motors that could be used to deorbit a satellite on a target. May 03 13:07:02 what id the driver is shipped on an attached microSD card instead of inside the Neo? :p May 03 13:07:14 since in most gps chipsets the acl stuff could easily be disabled, i guess the won't care anyways May 03 13:07:18 The law isn't that clear. May 03 13:07:53 Existing case law - well - lack of prosecutions. May 03 13:08:11 Says that it's almost certainly OK to just ship a binary blob. May 03 13:08:24 As that's what essentially all GPSs are. May 03 13:08:30 They are mostly flash upgradable. May 03 13:08:59 The problem is that a GPL GPS has a documented 'off' switch to the mandated limits on altitude and speed. May 03 13:09:10 (1000kt and 60000ft) May 03 13:09:17 Does the open GPS driver exist? May 03 13:09:22 Not ATM. May 03 13:10:18 kt? May 03 13:10:23 knots May 03 13:10:49 nautical mph? May 03 13:11:01 IIRC knot = 1.1mph. May 03 13:11:13 It's supersonic anyway. May 03 13:11:17 pretty fast May 03 13:11:24 1000kt May 03 13:11:43 supersonic May 03 13:11:53 not for rocket May 03 13:12:11 It's a bit over mach 1.3 May 03 13:27:08 hi all May 03 13:27:20 hi all May 03 13:53:48 is the micro sd uilded together with the simcard slot? May 03 13:54:00 or where is the sd card? May 03 13:54:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_case_top_open_pcb_lifted.jpg May 03 13:54:08 Under the SD card. May 03 13:54:13 Err May 03 13:54:15 battery May 03 13:54:15 under the SIM May 03 13:54:23 oh, so hm. May 03 13:54:24 :) May 03 13:54:32 i thinking about the sd-wifi cards May 03 13:54:36 Yeah - you have to power down to remove the SD. May 03 13:54:42 but i think this idea is failed May 03 13:54:49 Not quite. May 03 13:54:53 no sdio on GTA01 yet May 03 13:54:56 It's not that hard to make a SD extension cable. May 03 13:55:11 To take it to a full size SD slot on the back of the phone. May 03 13:55:29 true May 03 13:56:07 XorA: but it isn't means that never implemented?! May 03 13:56:23 MetaMorfoziS: might be that those pins arent compatible May 03 13:57:04 i hope it's just might May 03 13:57:06 http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12539 May 03 13:57:08 it's pretty nice May 03 13:57:31 but if i start to use this, i lost the storage place May 03 13:57:40 (it haven't got memory:() May 03 13:57:51 of course just wait for GTA01 with wifi May 03 13:57:51 * mjr doesn't really see the point of insane amounts of hacking for a sdio wifi which would take up the microsd memory card slot and which will probably be made redundant with that atheros chip... May 03 13:58:54 * MetaMorfoziS needs to re-check the news about the neo with wifi release May 03 13:59:08 mjr, you are true, i just thinking what will be good and what not. May 03 13:59:19 it looks not:/ May 03 14:07:24 AAAAh! I can't find words. May 03 14:07:42 Wifi, faster cpu and possible camera...first and last what i missed before. My prays has been listened:D May 03 14:08:00 possible camera? May 03 14:08:13 The hardware will update with a faster CPU and "something else everyone has been asking for". (Said at 30:20 in the FOSDEM video.) Which is presumably either a camera or wifi. (about CPU see also [9]) May 03 14:08:18 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 May 03 14:08:41 well, it probably won't be a camera May 03 14:08:50 Wifi, atheros, I'm guessing May 03 14:09:05 it's possible i missunderstanding something:) May 03 14:09:26 so camera hasn'T got chance yet? (because wifi wons?) May 03 14:09:45 Haven't heard anything about camera, and neither would I want one May 03 14:10:55 yes, in wiki it's not too much, i hope it will be updated soon May 03 14:11:35 Camera can be usefull, not for imaging for national geographic, just for fun, or if you have a crash with your car etc... May 03 14:12:09 mod the phone to add one then :-D May 03 14:12:41 XorA: you can't mind how many ideas i have about "modding" neo:) May 03 14:13:06 latest is trying to integrate a disassembled phone's camera somehow via miniusb...:) May 03 14:13:20 But it need some google yet. May 03 14:14:03 hack in a usb webcam chipset May 03 14:14:39 remove the bluetooth and add a cam May 03 14:14:47 everything needed should be on that connector :) May 03 14:16:05 I thik there may be a spare internal USB anyway, my s3c24XX devboards have two usb ports May 03 14:16:54 yeah, the cpu has two ports May 03 14:17:17 one master/slave port and one master-only port May 03 14:19:32 Or at least, if everything fails, get a little webcam... May 03 14:19:59 unpowered usb s*cks up a bit, but not a big problem... May 03 14:20:31 The second port is used for the bluetooth module. May 03 14:21:09 And, what is acutally in the topic about the "mid may" date is menas that device? That has faster cpu and wifi? May 03 14:21:26 MetaMorfoziS, no May 03 14:21:30 When anyone can buy it May 03 14:21:40 or the hw is changing constantly to september? May 03 14:21:44 oh, yah. May 03 14:21:46 MetaMorfoziS, no. May 03 14:21:52 ? May 03 14:22:02 The hardware has one rev before sep May 03 14:22:16 no it's not one with wifi and faster cpu in May, and no, not changing constantly May 03 14:22:20 what SpeedEvil said May 03 14:22:34 okay, i understand, and when that rev dated? May 03 14:22:42 Junish maybe. May 03 14:22:44 Who knows. May 03 14:22:52 cool. May 03 14:22:57 I doubt Junish what with this release being out only now, but we'll see May 03 14:22:58 I don't think it's been announced. May 03 14:23:06 I meant julyish May 03 14:23:17 * SpeedEvil always gets those two mixed up. May 03 14:23:18 * XorA smiles evilly May 03 14:23:21 julyish maybe possible May 03 14:23:31 :) May 03 14:23:32 I wouldn't be surprise any time from july-september for the revision. May 03 14:23:40 anyway, they'll announce more details on the revision when these p1 May sales start up May 03 14:23:45 SpeedEvil, indeed me neither May 03 14:24:02 hard to wait:/ May 03 14:24:02 (or at least they've promised to do so) May 03 14:24:25 mjr: they will May 03 14:24:32 mjr: they are insanely busy May 03 14:24:56 no doubt May 03 14:26:07 * XorA for a laugh should put his P1 in the old red/white case ;-) May 03 14:26:27 so for humans, no reason to buy neo before the last rev May 03 14:26:42 I want one ASAP. May 03 14:26:43 MetaMorfoziS: for humans, wait until sept May 03 14:26:48 :( May 03 14:26:49 :) May 03 14:26:52 if all goes well, there will be no "last" :] May 03 14:26:56 MetaMorfoziS: for h4x0rs P1 will be fun May 03 14:27:03 Just basically as a portable X box. May 03 14:27:09 for rich haxors;) May 03 14:27:09 maybe last 1973 rev, though May 03 14:27:17 SpeedEvil: it can join my collection of portable X boxes May 03 14:27:18 mjr, sorry:) May 03 14:27:39 X + GPS + bluetooth + USB +touchscreen = cool. May 03 14:27:50 GSM might be interesting too. May 03 14:28:01 and wifi, and fast cpu;) May 03 14:28:02 SpeedEvil, hehe. Well, at least the GPRS part is interesting too :) May 03 14:28:19 voice calls, meh, sure, throw them in... May 03 14:28:19 One of the first things I'll be porting to it if it arrives soon is MegaTunix. May 03 14:28:21 * XorA already has X + wifi + bluetooth + usb May 03 14:28:31 and mobility? May 03 14:28:32 :D May 03 14:28:43 Which is an interface to a DIY ECU. May 03 14:28:51 * mjr is thinking that Sopwith _needs_ to be adapted to the Neo, but that'll probably require a (bluetooth) keyboard to play May 03 14:29:13 What's sopwith? Realtime camel navigation? May 03 14:29:35 looks... May 03 14:29:36 :D May 03 14:30:04 http://sopwith.classicgaming.gamespy.com/ May 03 14:30:10 SpeedEvil: it's a horizontal scroller flying game May 03 14:30:17 a classic DOS game, nowadays free software May 03 14:30:19 SpeedEvil: first released for DOS in the 80s May 03 14:30:37 just too bad that it really can't be adapted the touchscreen controls May 03 14:30:40 miip: we may be a few buttons short for it though May 03 14:30:44 err May 03 14:30:49 mjr: aye May 03 14:30:49 but I'm gonna get me a BT keypad anyway... May 03 14:30:52 ;) May 03 14:30:56 hi btw May 03 14:31:02 heya :) May 03 14:31:10 * Stephmw unearths another lurker May 03 14:31:17 One finger along a side as a control, and then tap the otehr corner May 03 14:31:28 for fire. May 03 14:31:36 but ... May 03 14:31:59 fire = bomb, and machine gun... 2 controls? May 03 14:32:34 total controls: speed up/down, attitute up/down, bomb, machine gun... pause May 03 14:33:00 The touchscreen only handles one finger at one time, not? May 03 14:33:08 the neo1973 will never be a hit if it doesn't get a cell processor in p2 :P .. May 03 14:34:02 MetaMorfoziS: not quite. May 03 14:34:28 If you have multiple touches, you pretty much get a touch registered in the centre of the bounding box of the touches. May 03 14:34:54 However, if the touch instantly jumps, then it's been touched again. May 03 14:35:10 yeah, you can sorta do some extrapolation on that if you want May 03 14:35:33 not real multitouch tho May 03 14:35:38 yeah. May 03 14:35:50 if you assumed that two touches never happen at the same time and that the measuerements are accurate enough, you could kind of emulate a multitouch May 03 14:36:07 They aren't. May 03 14:36:26 The 'centre of bounding box of touches' is only an approximation. May 03 14:36:29 and you would probably need more assumptions May 03 14:36:37 Pressure, and area of touches are also important. May 03 14:36:49 oh, yeah May 03 14:37:25 and don't forget the very little screen:( May 03 14:38:06 Is that have chance to neo gets a bigger (in real size) display before september? May 03 14:38:06 i wonder how the real multitouch screens are made, maybe they are really some slitghlty modified normal touchscreens and most of the work is done in software... May 03 14:38:44 As i know that plays with laser or infra beams, and it's modification when you touches the screen May 03 14:38:46 * SpeedEvil wonders if he wrote that up in the wiki. May 03 14:39:18 balrog-kun: Do you know what a resistor is? May 03 14:39:23 :) May 03 14:39:47 MetaMorfoziS, as for the casing, the Neo as we have now is it. May 03 14:39:48 SpeedEvil: the name rings a bell :p May 03 14:40:05 Basically. May 03 14:40:26 Wheras a singletouch touchscreen has two resistive elements - the top and the bottom. May 03 14:40:46 with a voltage gradient applied at right angles on each access to sense it. May 03 14:41:00 mjr i don't understand that sentence, can you explain that more? (sorry) May 03 14:41:19 The multitouch screen has multiple resistive strips in parallel. May 03 14:41:33 so it's like a combination of a keyboard and a touchscreen. May 03 14:41:51 you can read each 'patch' as a seperate touchscreen pretty much. May 03 14:42:40 SpeedEvil: ah i get it now May 03 14:42:43 SpeedEvil: ah, so it's not based on that frustrated internal reflection stuff? May 03 14:42:49 no. May 03 14:42:58 That's totally different. May 03 14:43:05 Though that can also do multitouch. May 03 14:43:22 hm, i thought the same that Stephmw asks. May 03 14:43:29 but i guess, since multitouchscreen is something relatively modern and mostly existing in labs, that there may be a couple of different designs May 03 14:43:39 You can do it in several ways. May 03 14:43:49 It's also useful for SAW displays. May 03 14:44:09 Which is basically sonar, as you've seen in many submarine movies, but on a display. May 03 14:44:18 And using glass not water. May 03 14:44:31 it's be interesting to extrapolate pressure from area pressed, rather than using a pressure sensitive pad May 03 14:44:38 Yeah. May 03 14:44:48 SAW can sort-of do that. May 03 14:45:05 With smart enough hardware. May 03 14:45:28 Though you're really picking up sound absorbancy rather than pressure as such. May 03 14:45:28 SAW stands for surface acoustic wave? or that's a different thing? May 03 14:45:31 yes. May 03 14:45:33 Same thing. May 03 14:45:51 it bounces sound around the display, and listens for the silent bits where the finger absorbs the signal. May 03 14:46:02 okay, the only one that sounded related in the wikipedia disambiguation for SAW May 03 14:46:02 finger or pointer. May 03 14:46:38 There are also things that shine light across just in front of the screen, and look for beam-breaks. May 03 15:08:58 counter May 03 15:08:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 08:50:59 (11.369 +-3.5 days) (1078;193) May 03 15:09:01 countdown May 03 15:09:26 nice.. May 03 15:20:29 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] May 03 15:45:13 any news on the hammerhead? May 03 15:45:20 hello May 03 15:46:12 hello May 03 15:46:27 :) May 03 15:47:14 i am interested in collaborate to develop software applications for the OpenMoko May 03 15:47:53 what can i do? May 03 15:47:53 arw: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 03 15:48:21 aloril ok, thank you May 03 15:48:50 aloril is an automatic bot thing, if you speak to abraxa_ he might be able to help May 03 15:57:41 gtg cu May 03 16:24:07 hi May 03 16:29:17 openmoko: 03thomas * r1901 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/src/main.c: openmoko-footer: Don't override the style. Remove unused variables. May 03 16:40:13 i want to know the release date of openmoko May 03 16:41:35 suma: before the end of the year May 03 16:41:37 most likely May 03 16:41:42 that is good May 03 17:06:28 guaqua: Now that's quite the rough estimate - though undoubtedly true May 03 17:08:54 abraxa_: like the question :) May 03 17:09:33 Yeah, especially since OpenMoko is pretty much "released" already May 03 17:09:52 * abraxa_ wonders if it really is that hard to distinguish between OpenMoko and the Neo May 03 17:14:06 For the uninitiated, yes. May 03 17:15:47 here are a some example for spanish wiki/Main_Page: May 03 17:15:47 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User_talk:Arw May 03 17:15:49 counter May 03 17:15:49 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 06:44:08 (11.281 +-3.5 days) (1079;193) May 03 17:15:59 counter! May 03 17:18:20 i moved it, to : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page/es May 03 17:20:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Arw]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]] May 03 17:25:52 counter May 03 17:25:53 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 06:34:05 (11.274 +-3.5 days) (1080;193) May 03 17:27:47 hmm May 03 17:28:05 * LuitvD continues to wait anxiously May 03 17:33:52 counter? May 03 17:33:52 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 4 days 06:26:05 (11.268 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week, 5 days (135.768 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1081;193) May 03 17:47:36 Ahh, finally some instabilities less: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ChangeLog#2007-05-3 May 03 17:49:25 dme May 03 18:18:27 Hi all :-) Out of curiosity, I'm trying to build openmoko using MokoMakefile May 03 18:18:54 Heyho May 03 18:19:19 But the build fails at fontcacheproto during configure, error: possibly undefined macro: AM_SET_CURRENT_AUTOMAKE_VERSION May 03 18:19:56 Maybe update autoconf/automake? May 03 18:21:24 Hmm, I'm running Gentoo ~x86 May 03 18:24:59 Any other ideas? May 03 18:25:00 thorbenk: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 03 18:25:55 Hmm, very thoughtful, but thanks, I know the wiki already ;-) May 03 18:46:37 hm.. new heuristics: if user mentions mokomakefile, assume user has RTFW ;-) May 03 18:58:30 aloril2 - *lol* :-) May 03 19:23:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Template:Languages]] [[Main_Page/es]] [[Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro]] May 03 19:28:53 what difference exist from projects.openmoko.org and ww.openmoko.org? May 03 19:30:07 arw: what do you mean. if you click on "projects" (top right) at www.openmoko.org you'll end up at projects.openmoko.org May 03 19:30:28 s/mean\./mean\?/ May 03 19:31:24 aewin i mean, come from same organizarion May 03 19:33:18 aewin, if i want to join/create a project ? May 03 19:33:41 is projects.openmoko.org the right place? May 03 19:33:48 arw: yes! :-) May 03 19:33:51 Pretty much, yeah May 03 19:34:32 does projects. work? May 03 19:34:45 aevin sorry by w May 03 19:34:52 np :) May 03 19:34:52 ahh.. ok, thank you May 03 19:35:07 i'm going to create a new ... May 03 19:35:12 Vegar: Yup, it got fixed May 03 19:35:20 cool May 03 19:35:31 oooh May 03 19:35:36 it's got projects in it too May 03 19:35:53 when you create a new project I think it has to be manually validated by openmoko core team before it'll be approved, so you might expect it won't happen instantly. May 03 19:36:36 arw: what kind of project are you thinking of ? *curious* :-) May 03 19:38:18 aevin .. i'm thinking in voice criptography May 03 19:38:36 some lile that: secure shell voice :) May 03 19:41:52 do you know what would be cool? May 03 19:41:54 speech to text May 03 19:42:06 Cryptography May 03 19:42:09 :) May 03 19:42:31 mmm May 03 19:43:06 but the security it's a good subjet May 03 19:43:18 speech to text.. i'ts a good subjet too May 03 19:43:18 Encrypting voice is the trivial part. May 03 19:43:28 The hard part is the data transfer. May 03 19:43:53 ¿protocol? May 03 19:44:17 You can't transfer data cheaply at low latency on GSM May 03 19:44:17 i think that it's no matter May 03 19:44:25 GSM data calls are expensive and high latency. May 03 19:44:29 GPRS is high latency. May 03 19:44:54 gsm data calls are okay for the purpose though. You do have to pay more than a voice call, sure, but not necessarily by a large margin May 03 19:44:56 i'm thinking that May 03 19:44:59 You have to use GSM voice, with a synthetic voicebox fed a bitstream May 03 19:45:10 GSM data calls are also high latency. May 03 19:45:13 AIUI. May 03 19:45:18 And very slow to connect. May 03 19:45:50 I saw an interesting paper on the synthetic voicebox option. May 03 19:46:04 GEtting a bit over a kilobyte a second over GSM. May 03 19:46:05 gsm can be used as a modem? May 03 19:46:07 Pretty robustly. May 03 19:46:11 it's not _that_ high latency (but yes, there is some) May 03 19:46:22 SpeedEvil, now that is interesting May 03 19:46:35 if you can get that, it'd be nice May 03 19:46:37 Basically, it takes what GSM is designed to encode. May 03 19:46:44 And encodes a signal to that. May 03 19:46:58 GSM is designed so that bit errors cause small audible changes only. May 03 19:47:04 So you get some error resistance too. May 03 19:47:08 meanwhile, it would be nice to do the gsm data thing, preferrably using the cryptophone.de published protocol (to leverage their installed base) May 03 19:47:27 I won't be doing that, 'course, just an opinion from the sidelines :] May 03 19:47:28 any news on the GPS? May 03 19:47:30 GPRS and 'push to talk' will also work well. May 03 19:47:37 CoreDump|home: basically no. May 03 19:47:41 :\ May 03 19:47:51 CoreDump|home: Though it will now send single 0x00 bytes on command. May 03 19:47:51 over 1kbyte/s on gsm? isnt gsm itself 9600bit/s? May 03 19:47:51 yes, I have been advocating push-to-talk on the community list May 03 19:48:01 that would be pretty impressive May 03 19:48:04 Err - my bad. May 03 19:48:07 Sorry. May 03 19:48:11 1300 bits/sec. May 03 19:48:13 SpeedEvil: yeah, I read the backlog and compiled the posted program May 03 19:48:25 thats probably not enough for voice May 03 19:48:28 same result here as for koen and pH5 May 03 19:48:34 It's fine for voice. May 03 19:48:35 SpeedEvil, righto, a bit less impressive, but still enough to get a low-quality voice connection going May 03 19:48:38 With good codecs. May 03 19:48:45 even 4kbit speex is barely recognizable May 03 19:49:08 voice codecs.. like ogg? May 03 19:49:15 No, special codecs. May 03 19:49:20 Designed for low-bitrate voice. May 03 19:49:23 ogg isn't a codec May 03 19:49:36 speex is a codec (for voice, don't know if it can do 1300bit/s) May 03 19:49:36 protocol? May 03 19:50:02 arw, multimedia container format May 03 19:50:07 What do you mean by protocol? May 03 19:50:15 SpeedEvil: speex IS a special low bitrate voice codec May 03 19:50:20 ahh.. ok mjr May 03 19:50:38 buz: I know. May 03 19:52:52 SpeedEvil i mean: standar o some like that.. May 03 19:53:10 counter? May 03 19:53:10 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 4 days 04:06:48 (11.171 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week, 5 days (135.671 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1082;193) May 03 19:54:04 Anyway. I think encrypted calls over GSM data are worthwhile, and hope Somebody (TM) will code support. PTT/GPRS for cheapskates, can be integrated into Jabber (initiate as file transfers over it). May 03 19:54:59 what's going on with the gsp maps? any move on those? May 03 19:55:06 PTT + OTP = almost trivial. May 03 19:55:12 webjames: no. May 03 19:55:24 webjames: the problem is that nobody sells suitable maps. May 03 19:55:35 webjames: And openstreetmap.org sucks basically. May 03 19:55:45 well, I was thinking that one might skip the OTP and rather use gpg for the encryption May 03 19:55:56 Though it's getting better, through the aid of the beautiful people that help with the map. May 03 19:56:07 yeah.. so what are your thoughts on it? maybe support tomtom, or google maps like the N95? May 03 19:56:08 thomasg_: You around? May 03 19:56:08 though, I'm not sure if gpg can do streaming? it would be nice to be able to start transmitting as soon as some data is available May 03 19:56:12 * SpeedEvil added glenrothes. May 03 19:56:13 to reduce latency May 03 19:56:17 abraxa_, I am May 03 19:56:23 webjames: it's not possible to support tomtom. May 03 19:56:34 encryption is dead simple May 03 19:56:35 webjames: Tomtom either choose to release for the platform, or not. May 03 19:56:36 we have ssl for something May 03 19:56:42 google maps is waiting for a browser May 03 19:57:00 SpeedEvil:i though the linux phones where compatable.. obviously not May 03 19:57:02 thomasg_: Are you by chance the one who commited the changes to the OpenMoko theme today? May 03 19:57:02 webjames: Google maps works fine in firefox or something. May 03 19:57:10 google maps is available as java j2me program and doesnt need a browser May 03 19:57:13 But you need GPRS. May 03 19:57:21 abraxa_, no, I'm not, sorry :) May 03 19:57:31 SpeedEvil: would it interface with the gps coordinates? May 03 19:57:32 then .. i'm going to think about to encrypted calls May 03 19:57:32 thomasg_: Aww dang... thanks anyway May 03 19:57:37 np :) May 03 19:57:42 SpeedEvil, true, but the neo has GPRS :) May 03 19:57:44 webjames: there are other possibilities. May 03 19:57:56 webjames: For example gpsdrive May 03 19:58:03 well, you're right, its no alternative to tomtom e.g. May 03 19:58:07 i had a quick go on openmaps May 03 19:58:08 GPRS can be _very_ expensive in some cases. May 03 19:58:13 i might map a bit of my area May 03 19:58:19 It's fun! May 03 19:58:21 :) May 03 19:58:21 SpeedEvil, it always is :( May 03 19:58:27 buz, yes ssl would work, but personal gpg keys are more common (and should be made even more so) and it already works for e-mail, should use the same for PTT messages and for-recipient encrypted file transfers and such May 03 19:58:28 :( May 03 19:58:29 thomasg_: not really. May 03 19:58:55 hmm, I think gnutls could use gpg keys for auth though May 03 19:58:58 thomasg_: It can be as little as 7 quid a month extra on a contract phone for a gig a month. May 03 19:59:07 you could ocmbien gpg for auth and ssl for traffic May 03 19:59:10 (UK) May 03 19:59:15 combine May 03 19:59:24 and the n95 doesnt use google maps, it uses a navigation-system which looks like google maps, but is from nokia (afaik) May 03 19:59:28 buz, yeah, as I just recalled May 03 19:59:45 not sure if the libs already do it, but it's trivial to do in any case May 03 20:00:03 still, I think gpg can stream so it would be nicer, in that it'd fit the "file transfer" concept nicely May 03 20:00:21 i think it can stream May 03 20:00:26 sort of, if blocksize is small enough May 03 20:00:31 thomasg_: thanks May 03 20:01:00 buz, yeah, and for this it's just that it wouldn't add too much extra latency to the ptt messages May 03 20:01:24 mhh i never thought gpg was particularly fast May 03 20:01:46 I mean, the key point is that you could start sending the beginning of the message as it's being processed, and not wait until the end of the message May 03 20:01:50 You keep the connection open. May 03 20:01:56 And just send data as you have it. May 03 20:02:04 Otherwise the negotiation will kill you. May 03 20:02:19 hmm, true, didn't think of that May 03 20:02:28 right, perhaps ssl would do well then May 03 20:02:32 (tls) May 03 20:02:48 It's a bit of a pity that you probably can't do inbound UDP to the phone. May 03 20:02:49 and using gnutls so you can auth with gpg keys, and all is well May 03 20:03:09 You'll need to talk via a server anyway. May 03 20:03:18 As you can't make inbound connections on phones. May 03 20:03:29 well, can't rely on it anyhow May 03 20:04:22 i've just been looking on openstreetmap, maybe in the dev stage we could set the GPS to log where everyone goes and if everyone uploaded that data it might give OSM the kick it needs? May 03 20:04:34 Well - that would help. May 03 20:04:44 You really need some minimal user interaction. May 03 20:04:51 To at least set the mode of the journey. May 03 20:05:00 Car/boat/train May 03 20:05:10 bike? May 03 20:05:30 But even just raw GPS logs, uploaded to an anonymiser server, held for a month, then submitted to OSM in a random order would help a bit. May 03 20:05:31 webjames, yeah, the idea has been rolled around May 03 20:05:51 The problem is then that someone with knowledge of the area has to trace over the dots to make roads. May 03 20:07:13 even with the GPS resolution high enough? May 03 20:07:19 Yes. May 03 20:07:23 :( May 03 20:07:32 How do I know the road you'r on is the Z893 May 03 20:07:44 Or that you're on a train, not a car. May 03 20:08:04 The tracklogs are admittedly very helpful, and you can get a lot of data out of them. May 03 20:08:11 OT, i'm again , i'm looking this web :http://www.global-teck.com/english/telecomproducts.php May 03 20:08:15 i mean, i thought it would just show a lot of lines which could be split and taged May 03 20:08:30 Problem is that GPS quality varies. May 03 20:08:46 that company offer a «Mobile Voice Encryptor» May 03 20:08:52 what hardware, or signal? May 03 20:09:32 with GSM service May 03 20:09:55 It's easy if you've got access to the inner bits of the modem. May 03 20:10:10 As you can just stream data that looks enough like GSM voice to get past the filters. May 03 20:10:19 But is really your own-rolled protocol. May 03 20:10:44 just adding my street name! :D May 03 20:10:49 :) May 03 20:12:06 SpeedEvil , but on the openmoko project , can i get acces to the iiner bits of the modem? May 03 20:12:18 Openmoko != neo1973 May 03 20:12:23 and on that phone, no. May 03 20:12:36 Probably not on most phones. May 03 20:13:06 why.. May 03 20:13:16 Why what? May 03 20:13:24 openmoko: 03mickey * r1902 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/sane-srcdates.inc: oe: bump SRCDATE for eds-dbus May 03 20:13:29 i mean, if is a open plataform ? May 03 20:13:35 The modem is a canned one. May 03 20:13:40 It responds to AT commands. May 03 20:13:56 And has the GSM codec inside. May 03 20:14:07 You want to have access to the other side of the GSM codec. May 03 20:14:44 Rolling your own modem - for FIC - raises all sorts of horrible issues. May 03 20:14:50 And is very, very expensive. May 03 20:14:52 then is impossible? May 03 20:15:07 On this phone, you can't get access to the raw datastream. May 03 20:15:28 It is not impossible it won't be possible on future phones. May 03 20:15:31 that snapcell encryption thingy also seems to require circuit switched data services May 03 20:15:41 so, surprise surprise, gsm data it is May 03 20:16:19 of course, this is all so that operators can charge a premium for data compared to voice May 03 20:17:17 i can't get access to the raw datastream.. :( May 03 20:18:16 yes, life sucks May 03 20:18:48 and on low level... can i? May 03 20:19:01 what? May 03 20:19:42 yes... assembler May 03 20:19:54 you're not making much sense May 03 20:20:20 :( May 03 20:20:50 for an assembly language, May 03 20:20:52 :( May 03 20:21:37 Yes, you can access the raw datastream in assembly. May 03 20:21:58 You need to crack the firmware update protocol on the GSM modem, upload a new binary. May 03 20:22:18 But... May 03 20:22:46 but it's possible? May 03 20:22:53 In theory, yes. May 03 20:22:59 The modem can be flash updated. May 03 20:23:02 However. May 03 20:23:15 There are no publically available flash images. May 03 20:23:39 The encryption on the update image is unknown. May 03 20:23:47 And the language it's written in is unknown. May 03 20:24:09 I mean variety of assembly language. May 03 20:24:10 openmoko: 03mickey * r1903 10/trunk/oe/ (3 files in 3 dirs): oe: add openmoko-tasks to task-openmoko May 03 20:24:15 And the protocol, as you said. May 03 20:24:40 It's possible in the same way that running 100m in 9.7s is possible. May 03 20:25:31 * arw become ina «cheeta» May 03 20:25:47 :9 May 03 20:25:49 :) May 03 20:41:40 openmoko: 03zecke * r1904 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-rssreader/ (ChangeLog src/callbacks.c): May 03 20:41:40 openmoko: 2007-05-03 Holger Freyther May 03 20:41:40 openmoko: * src/callbacks.c: May 03 20:41:40 openmoko: (cb_treeview_keypress_event): Cursor keys are not forwarded to the May 03 20:41:40 openmoko: search bar but are left to the TreeView May 03 21:13:18 cute: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3013985136.html May 03 21:17:37 chip May 03 21:17:59 linus chip, that sound's good :) May 03 21:18:15 like a blackfin May 03 21:18:25 from analog devices May 03 21:18:33 did I miss something? Don't they need a GSM chip to do GPRS??? May 03 21:21:55 DukeOfURL: "Additionally, various application-specific carrier boards are available, including a [...] GPRS companion module" - they do. May 03 21:22:19 k May 03 21:24:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] May 03 21:26:30 when the neo1973 is released will we be able to choose the colour we get? May 03 21:27:19 and, why don't GSMArena have any information about it? i have emailed them telling them about it and requesting that it is featured on their site May 03 21:27:48 morning May 03 21:28:22 morning May 03 21:28:35 well evening here... May 03 21:51:57 openmoko: 03zecke * r1905 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-rssreader/ (ChangeLog src/moko_cache.c src/moko_cache.h): (log message trimmed) May 03 21:51:57 openmoko: 2007-05-03 Holger Freyther May 03 21:51:57 openmoko: Start implementing the test (untested) May 03 21:51:57 openmoko: * src/moko_cache.c: May 03 21:51:57 openmoko: (moko_cache_create_dirs): Make sure to create the dir. Somehow there May 03 21:52:01 openmoko: is no recursive mkdir in glib May 03 21:52:03 openmoko: (moko_cache_create_path): Create/build a path for the cache May 03 21:58:57 *rolleyes* May 03 22:00:41 lol, I'm tired :) May 03 22:01:21 * guaqua is helping a friend with his java homework and falling asleep on the computer May 03 22:01:26 good night May 03 22:01:32 nighty night May 03 22:05:00 Is sqlite by default on the phone? May 03 22:26:45 counter May 03 22:26:46 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 4 days 01:33:12 (11.065 +-3.5 days) (1083;193) May 03 22:31:48 Does anyone see a reason I wouldn't be able to use the Neo to play 6-channel audio through a Sound Blaster? May 03 22:31:48 beardousa: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 03 22:32:14 beardousa - You mean a usb-soundblaster-thingy? May 03 22:32:18 yes May 03 22:32:28 a) you need a power hub. May 03 22:32:35 doable May 03 22:32:42 b) don't expect too much CPU power from the first Neo. May 03 22:32:52 That is my main concern May 03 22:32:58 I'm not going to be doing too much DSP stuff May 03 22:33:08 I just need it to move 6 channels of 16-bit audio May 03 22:33:14 from a file to the USB bus May 03 22:33:27 No mp3 decoding or stuff like that? May 03 22:33:34 Just like 6channel .wav to usb? May 03 22:33:34 hmm... May 03 22:33:37 oh yeah May 03 22:33:49 I would use something like FLAC May 03 22:33:54 darn May 03 22:33:55 Shouldn't be a problem. May 03 22:33:56 forgot about that May 03 22:33:59 If it can do USB1.1 May 03 22:34:23 beardousa - It's comparable to a Pentium at 133 MHz I hear... maybe 200MHz. May 03 22:34:25 Just copying it out shouldn't be taxing. May 03 22:34:34 Probably not 200. May 03 22:34:40 the pentium has much bigger caches. May 03 22:34:43 hmh, is usb 1.1 enough for 6-channel 16-bit audio? May 03 22:34:45 Generally. May 03 22:34:47 SpeedEvil - Right. But deconding 6 flac channels is lots of work. May 03 22:35:02 Oh - I thought it was wav. May 03 22:35:06 I'd like to use Apple Lossless which is supposed to be the most efficient lossless format to decode May 03 22:35:06 wav - yes. May 03 22:35:12 FLAC, probably not. May 03 22:35:14 but that would require iTunes, which is not efficient May 03 22:35:34 Apple lossless may require decompression hardware that's built into ipod. May 03 22:35:36 Dunno. May 03 22:35:40 nope May 03 22:35:50 iTunes can play it May 03 22:35:52 >>> 44.1e3 * 4 * 6 May 03 22:35:52 1058400.0 May 03 22:35:57 is there a free implementation for apple lossless anyway? May 03 22:36:00 Hmm, that's also lots for usb1.1. :) May 03 22:36:07 * 2 * 6 May 03 22:36:17 Huh, right. May 03 22:36:32 and on top of that, I'd be reading from a USB HD May 03 22:36:34 0.5MB / sec. May 03 22:36:42 Borderline. May 03 22:36:45 beardousa, ok, now it's getting ridiculous :] May 03 22:36:55 oh... May 03 22:36:56 I'd go so far as to say almost certainly not. May 03 22:37:04 At 22Khz - probably work. May 03 22:37:05 it would be possible with 2.0 though? May 03 22:37:11 Oh yeah, easily. May 03 22:37:12 with 2.0, sure May 03 22:37:16 But the phone only has 1.1 May 03 22:37:32 If you could fit the track on the internal microSD that'd work too. May 03 22:37:34 I saw that the next one should have 2.0 May 03 22:37:38 any idea when that will be? May 03 22:37:38 No. May 03 22:37:43 Future ones may have 2.0 May 03 22:38:01 Nobodys said anything about 2.0 for this one. May 03 22:38:08 Does the S3C2410 do DMA for usb? (as in "the main cpu has not much work with reading/writing blocks from/to usb) ? May 03 22:38:12 right, not this one, some future one May 03 22:38:33 So after septembetr or so. May 03 22:38:40 "some" future one is so vague one can say almost certainly yes if the product line will hold :] May 03 22:39:07 Well, I suppose I can use something clunkier until then May 03 22:39:23 Doesn't matter if the product line holds, as long as openmoko takes off. May 03 22:39:50 true May 03 22:40:05 made an extra implicit assumption there May 03 22:40:07 I was hoping to find a phone that could play 6-channel PCM and use that as the stereo in my car May 03 22:40:18 Oh come on. May 03 22:40:19 I guess the best option for the moment would be more of a tablet May 03 22:40:25 In your car, PCM is overkill. May 03 22:40:29 no way May 03 22:40:40 You're never going to hear artifacts unless you're stationary. May 03 22:41:03 I want only the best signal for my MDA5000 DAC's May 03 22:41:05 which I don't own yet May 03 22:41:19 beardousa - the neo can do stero mp3 decoding to the internal sound chip. so something on that lines might work. But reading/writing to usb and decoding 6 channels will be _very_ had. Most likely not. May 03 22:41:34 Well. May 03 22:41:35 Anyone doing pygtk in here? May 03 22:41:42 MP3 2 channel is reported to use 25% May 03 22:41:49 6 channel should be doable. May 03 22:42:08 I would expect it should actually work. May 03 22:42:52 But if you want all quality theoretically possible, then go with something else. May 03 22:43:32 2.5" screen sounds a little small to me. Is it already pushing the limits of being able to comfortably fit in a pocket? May 03 22:43:35 Though a 'canned' neo - say in a 3" circular container, might make a fun car add-on. May 03 22:43:49 Pretty much. May 03 22:44:00 1.5 (mid summer) might have a faster CPU. If you put the songs on a 1GB microsd... you might get happy. May 03 22:44:06 Basically, the more you spend on the design, the closer you can make the display come to the edges. May 03 22:44:15 1GB + 6 channel FLAC... May 03 22:44:32 That's what - an hour? May 03 22:44:34 1GB isn't nearly enough for a lossless library May 03 22:44:41 I'd need an external drive May 03 22:44:46 Yeah. May 03 22:45:07 You could do it with two neos, two hard drives, and three channels each. May 03 22:45:18 hihi. May 03 22:45:38 Using the 1G microsd as "cache"? ;) May 03 22:45:44 hmm... well, nice to know it IS possible, but at that point I'd rather have some sort of tablet May 03 22:45:53 Yeah. May 03 22:45:54 you could cut USB traffic by playing 2 channels via the Neo speakers May 03 22:46:10 ATM I'm using an old laptop as a carputer. May 03 22:46:10 no... May 03 22:46:17 mjr - He wants super-duper-uber-highquality DAC. May 03 22:46:18 I'd go that route. May 03 22:46:34 Old laptop + USB2 hard drive + DAC May 03 22:46:36 Elrond, yes, I know, I'm picking fun at him May 03 22:46:37 I already have the DAC's. Just need a 6-channel PCM SPDIF signal May 03 22:46:45 mjr - Okay. :-) May 03 22:47:07 i mean I have them picked out. No need to worry about it on the PC May 03 22:47:46 Interestingly, I was only able to find a handful of sound cards capable of 6-channel SPDIF output, and they're all Creative May 03 22:47:55 external ones, I mean May 03 22:48:23 although I wonder if I could have 3 sound cards May 03 22:48:28 Sure. May 03 22:48:35 can you say SKEW! May 03 22:48:36 could I run 3 instances of JACK audio server? May 03 22:48:45 and keep them in sync? May 03 22:48:49 getting them all synced'd be hard. May 03 22:49:08 I have no ideae how that would be done May 03 22:49:11 idea May 03 22:49:23 I think it basically is really hard to get it right. May 03 22:49:39 It's probably drastically easier - though much more expensive - to simply use the creative card. May 03 22:50:04 syncing audio is tricky, I understand. May 03 22:50:30 3 * cheap USB soundcards with SPDIF out are 1/10th the price of the 6 channel one though :) May 03 22:50:39 ... and doing it in userspace feels... hmmm. May 03 22:50:52 SpeedEvil - Yeah. May 03 22:51:08 I'm currently wondering how to do this. May 03 22:51:15 So is there some of interrupt that fires when USB is plugged/unplugged May 03 22:51:18 As I would like several channels of datalogging. May 03 22:51:25 Yes, there is. May 03 22:51:30 awesome May 03 22:51:31 But it's horribly more complex than that. May 03 22:51:45 usb is just complex. May 03 22:52:01 but there is some way to make the phone do things when it gets plugged into a hub May 03 22:52:06 USB is basically a whole protocol stack. May 03 22:52:07 Which is part of the syncing-mess. May 03 22:52:31 Which is sort of like TCP/IP, HTTP, and HTML rolled into one messy ball. May 03 22:52:59 beardousa - I'm not too involved in kernel event-handling for usb/hubs. But I would say "possible". May 03 22:53:04 Does it charge through USB? May 03 22:53:07 Yes. May 03 22:53:37 If there's an indicator that tells you that, maybe you can just tap in May 03 22:53:47 monitor it or something May 03 22:53:51 Tap in for what? May 03 22:54:07 SpeedEvil - He wants to do something in userspace, when the neo is plugged in to usb. :) May 03 22:54:21 I mean if there's an icon somewhere that tells you you're charging May 03 22:54:25 Yeah - that's pretty trivial. May 03 22:54:36 You can hang off syslog or something. May 03 22:54:48 However. May 03 22:54:49 beardousa, do you want to do something in reaction to the hub, or the sound adapter? May 03 22:54:54 Oh yeah. Connecting a hub should pling something in syslog. ;) May 03 22:55:02 hub would be adequate May 03 22:55:12 although sound card would be preferable I suppose May 03 22:55:18 Right. May 03 22:55:21 As I wrote in the FAQ, the answer to almost all software questions is 'it hasn't been written yet.'. May 03 22:55:30 the sound thingy is handled in udev, and that can be hooked to your heart's content May 03 22:55:31 sound card would be easier, I guess. udev even notices it being available. May 03 22:55:38 though perhaps it'd be cleaner to do it on the hal level May 03 22:55:58 Surely you only handle the pod bay doors on the hal level. May 03 22:56:08 BUT: The neo is by default in usb-client mode, not usb-host! May 03 22:56:11 bzzt, lip reading too May 03 22:56:26 how do you switch it to host then? May 03 22:56:32 Elrond, hm, true May 03 22:56:59 I'd just leave it that way permanently May 03 22:57:16 Somehow in software, I don't know really. May 03 22:57:16 or on startup May 03 22:57:26 whatever the case may be May 03 22:58:40 damn, I would be the king of convergence if my phone could be my car stereo and GPS navigation device that I could also take with me May 03 22:58:49 oh well, maybe by the end of the year May 03 22:59:04 hehe. May 03 22:59:23 It's probably going to be reasonable to turn on host mode if the USB port has power, and nothings talked to it in 10 seconds. May 03 23:00:01 SpeedEvil, then you have to rig power to the Neo end of the connection too... but that's doable of course May 03 23:00:02 beardousa - GPS navigation: Be aware, that there is no "out of the box, simply works" solutin for this, and will take lots of time. May 03 23:00:29 beardousa - And navi and sound will be too much for the small cpu, just as sound will already kill it. May 03 23:00:36 Openstreetmaps is the current 'legal' solution. May 03 23:00:45 But though I am a contributor, it basically sucks. May 03 23:00:57 what about roadnav May 03 23:00:59 A nearby 140K population town has one road. May 03 23:01:22 oh, are you talking about the actual maps? May 03 23:01:26 There are _no_ freely legally available up-to-date maps. May 03 23:01:38 I'd be willing to pay May 03 23:01:43 There are no even cheap digital maps that you can buy. May 03 23:02:03 The map-vendors are only geared up to sell to Garmin, et al. May 03 23:02:21 The alternatives are basically: May 03 23:02:26 Then can't I buy a Garmin unit and download their maps? May 03 23:02:28 google-maps. May 03 23:02:43 The map is encrypted some way AIUI. May 03 23:02:53 oh... May 03 23:02:59 google-maps though requires a net connection. May 03 23:03:10 Openstreetmap - which sucks. May 03 23:03:13 At the moment. May 03 23:03:19 Maybe in 15 years time. May 03 23:03:42 And some way to run one of the purchasable tomtom products that are made for other platforms. May 03 23:04:09 Which is probably not actually legal to do, and comply with the license conditions. May 03 23:04:13 you mean like Windows? May 03 23:04:19 No - there is one for a PDA May 03 23:04:22 oh May 03 23:05:02 legally is only the preferred option as far as I'm concerned May 03 23:05:16 :( May 03 23:05:17 yeah May 03 23:05:33 The only really workable option is something based on google-maps. May 03 23:05:41 At the moment, if you want legal. May 03 23:05:57 Which is fine if you've got flat-rate GPRS May 03 23:06:04 and good connectivity where you want to go. May 03 23:06:07 it's not so much that I care about being legal, but I don't want to spend the time hacking May 03 23:06:22 programming my own music player will be enough work May 03 23:06:40 There is someone working on a music player May 03 23:06:47 it won't have the features I want May 03 23:06:48 I'm sure of it May 03 23:06:56 * mjr will probably cache some local maps from the net, be they google or not (I do think it's legal in Finland regardless; not quite sure, but piffles) May 03 23:07:01 So go to the music player on the wiki, and comment. May 03 23:07:03 I need some way to view lyrics May 03 23:07:13 On a 2.8" screen? May 03 23:07:17 yes May 03 23:07:23 mjr: Unlikely. May 03 23:07:33 there are a couple of other local map services here too though May 03 23:07:35 The terms and conditions of the google maps probably applies. May 03 23:07:46 They are explicit as to what they don't permit. May 03 23:08:18 All online mappers tend to have similar T&Cs. May 03 23:08:21 SpeedEvil, I'd not be so sure. Finland has a long history of allowing private copies of legally acquired material regardless of wannabe restrictions. May 03 23:08:33 Though what with the EUCD implementation, I'm not really so sure May 03 23:08:35 For the simple reason that they pull from 2 providers. May 03 23:08:54 Who both require similar things. (unless you pay lots of money) May 03 23:08:58 Using garmin maps on something else then the PC (for planning) and on two _garmin_ devices is probably illegal. May 03 23:09:06 (despite the non-NT format is decrypted now) May 03 23:10:48 actually, seems there's no legal problem for me locally here since the maps published by the city are legal to copy for personal use. How nice. May 03 23:11:00 :) May 03 23:12:21 (still wouldn't be so sure about the applicability of google's terms, but I guess I'll use these in this situation May 03 23:13:43 Does the Neo have a dock? May 03 23:13:49 No :( May 03 23:13:51 or would I have to build one? May 03 23:13:52 not as such May 03 23:13:53 ohh.. May 03 23:13:56 there'll be a car kit May 03 23:14:00 oh, good May 03 23:14:08 However, it still relies on the side USB connector. May 03 23:14:18 You can't just slam it in. May 03 23:14:53 well, it might be a good idea to keep the USB cable out of sight anyway... May 03 23:15:06 and pull it out when you mount the phone May 03 23:15:08 The USB connector is on the side. May 03 23:15:20 It's not going to be easy to dock. May 03 23:15:40 Especially as you need ~0.5mm or under 'aiming'. May 03 23:15:50 Or you'll destroy the connector. May 03 23:15:52 oh, so the dock will have the USB interface? May 03 23:16:13 No. May 03 23:16:17 oh May 03 23:16:20 The car 'dock' AIUI is just a holder. May 03 23:16:32 There are no other ways to connect external stuff to the phone than the USB port. May 03 23:16:39 that's all you need May 03 23:16:43 (well, headphone, GSM, GPS antenna) May 03 23:16:58 Yes, but it's not a suitable dock connector, at least where it is. May 03 23:17:36 I'd second the motion for a dock connector May 03 23:17:41 but I'm sure they already thought of that May 03 23:17:47 Yeah. May 03 23:18:22 So does the phone mic and speaker appear in Linux as an audio device? May 03 23:18:29 yes. May 03 23:18:34 it's all alsa May 03 23:18:34 awesome May 03 23:18:37 with 97 mixers. May 03 23:18:48 :-O May 03 23:19:37 oh, you mean ac97 May 03 23:19:58 I'm not so sure May 03 23:21:16 i have no idea May 03 23:21:32 No. May 03 23:21:38 There are actually 97 mixers. May 03 23:21:42 Why I don't know. May 03 23:21:46 yes, that's what I thought May 03 23:21:53 the GPS receiver is compatible with gpsd? May 03 23:21:58 yues. May 03 23:22:01 SpeedEvil, reference? May 03 23:22:08 Anyone know how I might make the mouse cursor visible when running openmoko via xnest? May 03 23:22:12 for? May 03 23:22:23 search gpsd on wiki May 03 23:22:24 SpeedEvil, where it says 97 mixers May 03 23:22:39 my guess would be there's a mixer for every possible direction the sound can go... like gsm chip->audio chip->SoC/speakers/headphones/etc... May 03 23:22:42 Umm - audio on wiki? May 03 23:22:43 yeah May 03 23:24:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] May 03 23:25:53 I'd be able to disable any mixers on the way to the sound card, right? May 03 23:27:02 TYhey'd appear as anothger card May 03 23:27:08 with own mixers May 03 23:27:13 oh, good May 03 23:28:07 You don't need a stylus to operate the touch screen? May 03 23:28:19 no May 03 23:28:27 of course it won't be very accurate without... May 03 23:28:36 I'll make my buttons big May 03 23:29:26 Is there somewhere I could suggest a (pricier) model with a bigger screen? That would really suit my application better. I have big pockets May 03 23:29:49 hardware:wishlist on the wiki May 03 23:29:50 wiki hardware wishlist May 03 23:29:59 oh, I didn't notice that May 03 23:44:38 On other UMPC/smart phones, do they give you any control at all over making calls, routing audio, and such? May 03 23:46:02 I mean do they give you a watered down interface or no interface? May 03 23:46:54 I just don't know. May 04 00:10:31 Time for me to go. See you all again after the first USB 2.0 model comes out. May 04 00:11:32 USB2.0 host or slave? May 04 00:11:51 i'm afraid neither will come out May 04 01:06:38 counter May 04 01:06:38 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 3 days 22:53:20 (10.954 +-3.5 days) (1084;193) May 04 01:24:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] May 04 01:29:41 so you know how there's a gps thingy in the neo1973? May 04 01:29:45 waddayado with it? May 04 01:29:58 is it just osmething you hook into your lappy and use gpsdrive on the lappy/ May 04 01:30:11 or is there like software and maps gonna be on the phone? May 04 01:30:23 a port of maemomapper would rock May 04 01:30:29 gpsdrive is a tragedy May 04 01:30:30 is there even enough space for maps on the phone? May 04 01:30:35 maemowhatnow? May 04 01:30:53 maemomapper is a great gps app for nokia's linux tablet May 04 01:31:09 it does use some special stuff in their api so it would take some work May 04 01:31:28 ah I see May 04 01:31:43 it is actually open source though? May 04 01:31:46 it "steals" google map tiles btw May 04 01:31:52 bmidgley: ahh I see! May 04 01:32:10 also works with us geological survey maps which is not stealing May 04 01:33:53 seemant: it is gpl yes May 04 01:34:09 interesting May 04 01:34:55 the main challenge is it's written to use the "hildon" extensions to gtk May 04 01:35:32 never even heard of those May 04 01:56:32 are there any issues with using enlightenment libs for openmoko? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri May 04 02:59:56 2007