**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 20 02:59:57 2007
May 20 04:47:18 <mrcucumber> Hello?
May 20 04:49:16 <Mr_You> So OpenMoko and SavaJe compete?
May 20 04:49:17 <aloril> Mr_You: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 20 04:53:40 <mwester> Mr_You: it's hard to compete with a failure (SavaJe).
May 20 04:55:10 <Mr_You> what benefits does OpenMoko have over SavaJe?
May 20 04:56:28 <mwester> Hehe!
May 20 04:56:49 <mwester> For one thing, it's still viable.  It's also not Java.
May 20 04:57:18 <hads> Two lovely reasons
May 20 04:57:32 <mwester> OpenMoko is Linux-based, and permits the use of many standard Linux applications without rewriting.
May 20 04:57:51 <Mr_You> what GUI framework?
May 20 04:58:15 <mwester> Many others can be ported, with the only rewriting necessary being to adapt to the screen resolution and the input mechanism.
May 20 04:58:23 <mwester> The GUI is standard X-windows stuff.
May 20 04:58:39 <Mr_You> I'm personally pretty turned off by the lack of a single cross-platform API.
May 20 04:58:54 <Mr_You> so there really hasn't been one chosen yet?
May 20 04:59:01 <hads> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
May 20 04:59:24 <Mr_You> yeah still too new
May 20 04:59:45 <Mr_You> I think SavaJe has a better chanc.
May 20 04:59:54 <hads> heh
May 20 05:00:47 <mwester> How so?  They died.  Sun bought the IP.
May 20 05:01:43 <Mr_You> maybe Sun will open-source it or who knows.  But I don't see why it can't offer the same as OpenMoko except its still closed currently.
May 20 05:02:36 <mwester> But regardless - an implementation that requires that every application be rewritten in Java to comply with the new API will, IMO, have the same problems that every cell phone today has -- no useful apps.
May 20 05:03:30 <Mr_You> well the "new API" is just JavaFX and is implemented via JVM "upgrade".  
May 20 05:03:36 <mwester> The huge difference with OpenMoko is that I can take any application for which I have source, and compile it for the device, and as long as it (the application) doesn't have special hardware needs, it will run.
May 20 05:03:53 <hads> And, it exists :)
May 20 05:04:12 <Mr_You> mwester: like what for example?
May 20 05:05:38 <Mr_You> generally you would port any application to run within the limited specs that are available with a phone.
May 20 05:05:58 <Mr_You> essentially creating a new version.
May 20 05:06:19 <mwester> Have you used X?
May 20 05:06:23 <Mr_You> if you build apps in Java already then thats appealing.
May 20 05:06:30 <Mr_You> sure.
May 20 05:06:44 <mwester> Ok, then you know that porting is not required for many common apps.
May 20 05:06:48 <Mr_You> most apps are built ontop of GNOME or KDE, etc.
May 20 05:06:59 <mwester> You speak of GUI apps.
May 20 05:07:01 <Mr_You> GNOME or KDE is not going to run on a phone, last I heard heh
May 20 05:07:03 <Mr_You> yes
May 20 05:07:06 <hads> I wouldn't say most.
May 20 05:07:08 <mwester> I also speak of command line tools and services
May 20 05:07:16 <Mr_You> yes thats what I've been talking about this whole time, mentioned above.
May 20 05:07:34 <Mr_You> ok, well 90% of the market isn't interested in that.
May 20 05:08:24 <Mr_You> we need connected/disconnected mobile GUI apps.
May 20 05:08:26 <mwester> You miss the whole the point, Mr_You. 
May 20 05:08:49 <Mr_You> not at all, I'm talking about apps users would use, not admins or engnieers.
May 20 05:09:06 <Mr_You> but the whole discussion is kinda wasted cause OpenMoke has no GUI API yet.
May 20 05:09:15 <hads> Umm
May 20 05:09:25 <Mr_You> but I would agree with you in regards to the just recompile part.
May 20 05:09:41 <mwester> User "GUI apps" are built with the assumption of underlying services and tools.  Those underlying services and tools *are* built, and are part of Linux. The GUI stuff is window dressing on what's underneath.
May 20 05:09:52 <mwester> That's the problem with a phone based on Java.
May 20 05:10:04 <mwester> Everything underneath must be built, mostly from scratch.
May 20 05:10:39 <Mr_You> I understand that, and I'm telling you 90% of the user and developer market only care about what API they have to use to code a GUI app that most users (90%) would be using.
May 20 05:11:16 <mwester> But, perhaps you are right -- in that case, it is only necessary to port the SavaJe JVM to ARM, and load it up on the device -- then you could run both native OpenMoko apps *AND* SavaJe apps.
May 20 05:11:22 <Mr_You> it could be javascript (which seems Apple might be doing, but so far their closed).. or any other language.
May 20 05:11:35 <Mr_You> probably.
May 20 05:11:46 <hads> This conversation isn't going anywhere fast
May 20 05:11:57 <mwester> You're right hads.
May 20 05:12:00 <Mr_You> nice cliche
May 20 05:12:12 <Mr_You> I thought it resolved itself nicely actually.
May 20 05:12:16 <Mr_You> :-P
May 20 05:12:42 <Mr_You> well thanks for the chat ;-)
May 20 05:13:14 <hads> I don't think he quite grasped the fact that it's just Linux and X.
May 20 05:14:07 <mwester> I think you're right.  He doesn't seem to have the framework to understand the difference...
May 20 05:14:27 <mwester> Oh well :)
May 20 05:15:02 <hads> It's odd to see the amount of people that drop by here and seem to completely miss the point of the project.
May 20 05:15:22 <hads> (not referring to this instance specifically)
May 20 05:15:43 <mwester> At least they are curious enough about it to drop by, which is good.
May 20 05:16:37 <hads> That's true. I'm just an intersted lurker :)
May 20 08:19:22 <massi> ciao c'è qualche italiano^
May 20 08:27:45 <Hopscotch> good morning
May 20 08:32:31 <Mukunda> Hmm, Neo1973 still isn't out... :-(
May 20 08:34:06 <hads> I'd guess everyone here knows that :)
May 20 08:35:49 <Mukunda> :-) Anyone know about this possible PDA that might be made? I'm _hugely_ interested in a PDA that runs with 100% Free-software.
May 20 09:12:31 <Elrond> Hi everybody.
May 20 09:34:42 <sparq> mwester: I, for one, and not surprised. Haven't you ever read the comments people leave on YouTube? There are a *lot* of people out there, and that means that there are a lot of idiots.
May 20 09:36:29 <sparq> Elrond: Hi (though I cannot claim to be "everybody")
May 20 09:41:50 <sparq> mwester: In any event, he sounded like he's a Java guy. Java guys often have a weird way of looking at software (obsessed with APIs, near-religious faith in Sun's good intentions, failure to understand or care how other people write software, believe that Java is "fast", et cetera)
May 20 09:44:30 <sparq> Java is neat and all, but I've always found the community to be... worrying. Like Star Trek fans who don't seem to have a sharply defined line between the show and Real Life. They can be nice, smart people... but worrying.
May 20 09:45:31 <hads> heh
May 20 09:47:24 <Elrond> Does something like fsck.jffs2 exist?
May 20 09:47:51 <zecke> /bin/true yourimage
May 20 09:50:03 <Elrond> ;o)
May 20 09:58:14 <LuitvD> counter
May 20 09:58:15 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: a week 02:01:42 (7.085 +-5.0 days) (1219;209)
May 20 10:03:37 <LuitvD> so is the first run going on today?
May 20 10:06:27 <d4rkm3n> is the neo1973 rain-proofe?
May 20 10:06:40 <Psi> LuitvD, you will know at the same time we do,  when we all get an announcement.
May 20 10:07:02 <Psi> d4rkm3n, no more or less than any normal cellphone
May 20 10:07:37 <Psi> actually, considering it has a touchscreen it will probably be abit less waterproof, but im only guessing
May 20 10:08:16 <LuitvD> Psi: oh well... the first-planned production date went by without info for at least 3 days before an announcement was made...
May 20 10:08:19 <d4rkm3n> neo1973: the first handy with touchscreen underwater ^^
May 20 10:09:21 <Psi> LuitvD, all i mean, is that there is no point thinking about it, we will find out when we find out.
May 20 10:10:27 <LuitvD> Psi: yup... and sean promised an announcement when it's there... time for me to subscribe then eh? :P
May 20 10:10:40 <Psi> lol, yes
May 20 10:10:54 <Psi> announce is the one you want
May 20 10:11:16 <LuitvD> hell, I'll just do both 
May 20 10:11:21 <LuitvD> (announce and community)
May 20 10:11:56 <Psi> even in digest form you get about 10 community emails a day
May 20 10:12:06 <Psi> with each having between 5-10 emails
May 20 10:12:26 <Psi> sorry, i meant to say, you get about 4 community emails per day
May 20 10:12:32 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Is the missing patch from oe the reason for failing openmoko-rssreader?
May 20 10:12:53 <d4rkm3n> is it possible to play moorhuhn on the openmoko?
May 20 10:13:00 <LuitvD> Psi: I don't care :P
May 20 10:13:32 <Psi> :)
May 20 10:13:35 <LuitvD> d4rkm3n: moorhuhn jagt is closed source software
May 20 10:13:59 <Psi> hehe, just got another community digest two seconds ago
May 20 10:14:18 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: yes
May 20 10:14:45 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/libmrss/files/better-parse-url-r0.patch ?
May 20 10:14:46 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: I have added a method to libmrss that is now called
May 20 10:14:53 <zecke> sounds right
May 20 10:14:53 <LuitvD> Psi: the fun thing about email filters is being able to group things :) I gather many mailing lists on one label in my email-account, and read them whenever I feel like reading
May 20 10:15:02 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: I'll try to push it in.
May 20 10:15:34 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: Sometimes a bit stuck due to mickeys moving
May 20 10:15:48 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: I have updated libmrss from 0.17.1 to 0.17.2 but the patch could apply to mrss 17.1
May 20 10:16:03 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: ok
May 20 10:21:15 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: the feed reader is almost useful now
May 20 10:21:34 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: cool
May 20 10:22:21 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: What do you use for html rendering atm?
May 20 10:24:49 <zecke> HTML? nothing
May 20 10:25:10 <zecke> I hope to use WebKit by the end of the next week
May 20 10:26:01 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: So you only handle the rss stuff right now?
May 20 10:26:22 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: yes, pretty lame :)
May 20 10:26:36 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: I can download rss, cache it, restore it, search it with as you type
May 20 10:27:29 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: heh, it's fine. I just though you mean also html stuff with almost useful
May 20 10:28:10 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: ok, openmoko-rssreader build fine again with the new linmrss and the patch from oe
May 20 10:34:31 <PBeck> tag
May 20 10:35:01 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=569
May 20 10:36:41 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: let us hope some one applies it
May 20 10:37:47 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: I'll already pushed werner. Mickey and Harald seem to be offline atm
May 20 10:38:05 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: But I'll push the whole day anyway. :)
May 20 10:40:40 <stefan_schmidt> BTW, anybody here know a small lib for parsing .desktop files?
May 20 10:41:15 <stefan_schmidt> openmoko-mainmenu could need it ;)
May 20 10:41:54 <zecke> stefan_schmidt: can you build xdg-utils as library?
May 20 10:42:36 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: No idea, but I'll take a look. xdg should be the right direction.
May 20 10:42:57 <zecke> I don't know if fd.o is back online again
May 20 10:43:51 <robster> stefan_schmidt: there should be some code in matchbox-desktop you can use
May 20 10:44:14 <robster> or matchbox-desktop-2 even
May 20 10:44:15 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: it is
May 20 10:44:56 <stefan_schmidt> robster: Also an idea. Still would prefer a small lib as we also would use it in openmoko-panel-mainmenu
May 20 10:47:42 <stefan_schmidt> hmm, it wonders me a bit everybody write his own parsing
May 20 10:58:38 <stefan_schmidt> zecke: heh, xdg-utils is out. It's shell. :)
May 20 10:58:54 <zecke> lol
May 20 11:03:41 <stefan_schmidt> http://svn.o-hand.com/view/matchbox/trunk/matchbox-desktop-2/launcher-util.c?rev=1501&view=markup
May 20 11:04:03 <robster> stefan_schmidt: its's like one c file.
May 20 11:04:14 <stefan_schmidt> robster: So launcher-util sounds like a good basement
May 20 11:04:48 <stefan_schmidt> robster: Indeed. I just don't know if I like to copy'&'paste this file everywhere.
May 20 11:05:04 <stefan_schmidt> robster: I need to think about this a bit more
May 20 11:06:29 <Kensan> stefan_schmidt: Maybe desktop-file-utils coud give you some hints? (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/desktop-file-utils)
May 20 11:08:10 <stefan_schmidt> Kensan: Let me take a look
May 20 11:12:28 <stefan_schmidt> OK, so I'll read launcher-util from matchbox and desktop-file-utils today and think about a good solution. Thanks guys.
May 20 11:13:12 <stefan_schmidt> But now it's time for a break. My GF is cooking her fine lasagne today. yummy :)
May 20 11:15:28 <SpeedEvil> Does she have a horrible lasagne to match?
May 20 11:15:32 <SpeedEvil> Wave
May 20 11:17:33 <stefan_schmidt> SpeedEvil: No need. I *know* this one is the best. It's the one of my GF. ;)
May 20 11:17:55 <SpeedEvil> Ah :) /me is doing some nice braised steak.
May 20 11:21:28 <d4rkm3n> is umts possible with the moko?
May 20 11:21:33 <SpeedEvil> No.
May 20 11:21:45 <SpeedEvil> Though with openmoko, and some future phone, yes.
May 20 11:22:00 <SpeedEvil> Not with the neo1973 - which is the first phone to launch (probably)
May 20 11:22:05 <SpeedEvil> Which is quadband GSM only
May 20 11:22:48 <SpeedEvil> UTMS radios are comparatively expensive too.
May 20 11:23:07 <d4rkm3n> :( then i have to wait 2 more years... for camera and more
May 20 11:23:14 <SpeedEvil> Who knows.
May 20 11:23:26 <SpeedEvil> If it takes off, more makers may jump on.
May 20 11:23:46 <buz> or e28 might decide to ship their stuff
May 20 11:23:57 <buz> upon which openmoko shouldnt be that hard to get running
May 20 11:24:36 <buz> isnt the universal umts? that one has cam too
May 20 11:24:45 <buz> was the first device outside fic to run openmoko
May 20 11:33:37 <tholin> is it ok for users to add their own suggestions on this page or is it just official apps? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications
May 20 11:33:57 <tholin> I have LOTS of ideas for applications. Some more crazy than others
May 20 11:34:53 <hads> "This page describes the set of applications being developed by the core set of OpenMoko developers"
May 20 11:35:11 <hads> Just create a new page if there isn't another that suits already.
May 20 11:38:02 <tholin> this looks suited for random brainstorming. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List
May 20 11:55:27 * hads crosses his fingers for python
May 20 11:56:12 <SpeedEvil> If you actually intend to start coding on them, maybe Applications:contribs
May 20 11:56:44 <SpeedEvil> hads: Ideally, all the basic apps have to fit inside 64M.
May 20 11:56:56 <SpeedEvil> hads: Otherwise the user can't easily change the microSD.
May 20 11:57:13 <d4rkm3n> a wikipedia rip is a good idea, too
May 20 11:57:20 <hads> SpeedEvil: For sure, I've just been reading through the scripting language thread.
May 20 11:57:29 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
May 20 11:57:40 <SpeedEvil> d4rkm3n: Not in 64M :)
May 20 11:57:57 <d4rkm3n> on a mSD
May 20 11:58:08 <SpeedEvil> And given the choice between a wikipedia rip, and a dozen or more albums...
May 20 11:58:17 <hads> Quite, especially with all the base stuff that has to go in the onboard memory.
May 20 12:00:20 <rd_> !counter
May 20 12:00:30 <SpeedEvil> A week or two.
May 20 12:00:34 <hads> heh
May 20 12:00:35 <SpeedEvil> Maybe sixteen.
May 20 12:00:37 <SpeedEvil> Who knows.
May 20 12:00:46 <LuitvD> LOL
May 20 12:00:49 <rd_> -.-
May 20 12:00:55 <rd_> i lost my phone yesterday 
May 20 12:01:04 <SpeedEvil> :/
May 20 12:01:15 <LuitvD> how did you manage to do that? :|
May 20 12:01:19 <rd_> time to get a new one, openmoko would be a good choice .. :D
May 20 12:01:21 <SpeedEvil> It could barely concievably be a week.
May 20 12:01:50 <hads> I doubt it's quite ready to replace your daily use phone, unless you like debugging on the run.
May 20 12:02:08 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
May 20 12:02:22 <rd_> hads, yeap, i always have two phones with me
May 20 12:02:32 <hads> Except now ;)
May 20 12:02:41 <SpeedEvil> OTOH - having GCC + sources + terminal on the phone is just _cool_.
May 20 12:02:54 <SpeedEvil> (with a large SD card)
May 20 12:02:58 <hads> heh
May 20 12:09:13 <d4rkm3n> can someone make a video of his neo please?
May 20 12:09:27 <Elrond> d4rkm3n - video? For what?
May 20 12:10:02 <d4rkm3n> better than pictures ;)
May 20 12:10:32 <Elrond> I can't see, why a video is better.
May 20 12:10:52 <d4rkm3n> it give a better impression
May 20 12:10:56 <d4rkm3n> gives
May 20 12:11:01 <_llll_> compare the success of youtube to images.google.com for example
May 20 12:11:39 <zipola> d4rkm3n, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Introduction#Videos
May 20 12:12:08 <d4rkm3n> http://youtube.com/watch?v=wgUZSwOWMEM
May 20 12:31:53 <kiney_> counter
May 20 12:31:54 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 6 days 23:28:04 (6.978 +-5.0 days) (1220;209)
May 20 12:50:58 <Elrond> pH5 - hi.
May 20 12:51:20 <pH5> hi Elrond
May 20 12:52:07 <pengwen> free my phone now!
May 20 12:52:33 <Elrond> pengwen - Has it been phonenapped? ;)
May 20 12:52:51 <Elrond> pH5 - Do you use a prebuilt kernel or your own?
May 20 12:53:00 <pengwen> mhm, and they installed a blasted camera in it!
May 20 12:56:57 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:context_based_to-do_list]] [[Talk:Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]]
May 20 13:00:11 <pH5> Elrond: the p0 is running my own kernel, I didn't find time to touch the p1 software yet.
May 20 13:00:50 <pH5> although 'my own' is said too much, it's the kernel built by the angstrom openmoko-devel-image in OE.
May 20 13:06:11 <Elrond> pH5 - Ahh.
May 20 13:14:48 <Elrond> Anyone seen pavel?
May 20 13:17:44 <pH5> ~seen pavelm
May 20 13:17:46 <apt> pavelm <n=pavel@gprs189-60.eurotel.cz> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko, 4d 22m 27s ago, saying: 'ph5: I should arrive tommorow or day after that... so I'm looking forward.'.
May 20 13:31:24 <CoreDump|home> hi
May 20 13:38:58 <giggls> any news from GPS support?
May 20 13:48:26 <Elrond> giggls - As soon, as I have setup a buildenv, I'll go ahead and try to get into more details of the protocol.
May 20 13:50:52 <giggls> Elrond: my question is wheather I should wait for openmoko or buy a garmin device for the time beeing
May 20 13:53:08 <Elrond> giggls - Depends on what your timescale is and what you want.
May 20 13:53:55 <giggls> Elrond: I want a device for openstreetmap data aquisition
May 20 13:55:04 <Elrond> giggle - Ahh. Then garmin and the neo are almost as good.  So the main question is: When do you want to have it?
May 20 14:04:46 <Bish> heros !
May 20 14:05:08 <Elrond> Hi Bish. This time without being drunken? ;o)
May 20 14:10:53 <Bish> yah ;) 
May 20 14:11:05 <CoreDump|home> heroes rocks
May 20 14:49:17 <Bish> wtf miranda -_-
May 20 14:56:39 <mjr> dih dum, 210 euros for a usb hsdpa modem, plus power injector and lo, neo with 3g ;P
May 20 14:56:57 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Dynamic_Screen_Orientation]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Wish_List]]
May 20 14:57:15 <buz> so you pay nearly as much for the modem as for the cellphone you use it with 
May 20 14:57:16 <buz> ROFL
May 20 14:57:37 <mjr> actually, I think I'll pass for now ;)
May 20 14:57:41 <buz> that must be rather high on the geek scale, using an umts modem with a cellphone
May 20 14:58:00 <Stephmw> ~v12
May 20 14:58:02 <apt> [v12] the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/
May 20 14:58:26 <Stephmw> just needs some miniaturisation
May 20 15:04:13 <SuN> Hm, I guess it'd be cheaper and easier to just get a simple UMTS phone with bluetooth :)
May 20 15:04:19 <SuN> And link it to the Neo.
May 20 15:07:13 <mjr> maybe if you sell your soul to an operator for it
May 20 15:08:07 <mjr> It _would_ be handier. But still, I'll do with GPRS.
May 20 15:18:05 <aloril2> counter
May 20 15:18:05 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 6 days 20:41:52 (6.862 +-5.0 days) (1221;209)
May 20 15:20:45 <aloril2> if we don't hear anything next week, then I guess May won't happen
May 20 15:26:18 <Magon> how to tell openembedded which packages should be in rootfs?
May 20 16:11:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2043 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/ (21 files in 2 dirs): 
May 20 16:11:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: 2007-05-20 Stefan Schmidt <stefan@openmoko.org>
May 20 16:11:57 <CIA-24> openmoko:  * src/*.{c,h}:
May 20 16:11:57 <CIA-24> openmoko:  Remove tons of trailing whitspaces
May 20 16:17:53 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2044 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-mainmenu/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
May 20 16:17:53 <CIA-24> openmoko: 2007-05-20 Stefan Schmidt <stefan@openmoko.org>
May 20 16:17:53 <CIA-24> openmoko:  * src/mokodesktop.c:
May 20 16:17:53 <CIA-24> openmoko:  * src/mokodesktop.h:
May 20 16:17:53 <CIA-24> openmoko:  * src/mokodesktop_item.c:
May 20 16:17:55 <CIA-24> openmoko:  * src/mokodesktop_item.h:
May 20 16:17:57 <CIA-24> openmoko:  Add missing licence header.
May 20 16:25:24 <aloril2> one could convey message using trailing white space in source code ;-)
May 20 16:28:48 <KragenSitaker> yay CIA
May 20 16:31:38 <CoreDump|home> cc
May 20 16:31:45 <CoreDump|home> err
May 20 16:40:02 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-rssreader/scripts/prepare-ChangeLog
May 20 16:57:57 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bootloader]]
May 20 17:12:18 <Bish> does anybody here got a nice picture of the neo1973 .. i need it to shot it to my friends :P
May 20 17:13:26 <Bish> show*
May 20 17:13:57 <CoreDump|home> the wiki links to some photos
May 20 17:15:13 <Bish> but there is no good one :/
May 20 17:15:48 <CoreDump|home> Bish: search flickr
May 20 17:17:41 <Bish> GSM, GPRS 2.5G (Not EDGE), Bluetooth 2.0 EDR, no WiFi
May 20 17:17:43 <Bish> no wifi? 
May 20 17:17:54 <Bish> i thought it will have?
May 20 17:18:11 <mjr> you thought wrong
May 20 17:18:17 <Bish> damn .. ou
May 20 17:18:25 <mjr> though the question is still somewhat open on the final hw revision
May 20 17:18:36 <Bish> ;) phew
May 20 17:19:15 <SpeedEvil> There is no final hw revision is there?
May 20 17:19:28 <SpeedEvil> It jsut keeps rolling.
May 20 17:19:41 <mjr> well, P1+/2 Neo1973 model anyway
May 20 17:20:26 <mjr> Bish, anyway, we'll probably have the final word on P2 wifi when P1 starts shipping
May 20 17:20:45 <SpeedEvil> Or rather P1+ wifi
May 20 17:20:45 <parag0n> i thought p1+ and p2 had wifi
May 20 17:21:01 <MrC_> hi
May 20 17:21:06 <Cray> hi
May 20 17:21:23 <mjr> SpeedEvil, same thing
May 20 17:21:35 <mjr> parag0n, vague innuendo
May 20 17:21:39 <MrC_> how is the OenMoko project going>
May 20 17:21:51 <SpeedEvil> I don't know. I don't think it's been confirmed that P1+ is the september hardware
May 20 17:22:26 <MrC_> I mean OpenMoko
May 20 17:22:32 <mjr> SpeedEvil, oh. Well, I thought it was, but shan't claim to be positive.
May 20 17:22:42 <SpeedEvil> MrC_: slowly
May 20 17:23:03 <MrC_> I hope to see some screenshots
May 20 17:23:21 <MrC_> i couldn't find from anywhere
May 20 17:23:31 <Bish> flickr has some nice ones
May 20 17:23:39 <Bish> and the wiki offers screenshots too
May 20 17:23:44 <Cray> Did you look at wiki?
May 20 17:23:45 <aloril> Cray: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 20 17:23:51 <Cray> ))
May 20 17:24:08 <MrC_> Is it there due time to be released?
May 20 17:24:08 <aloril> MrC_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 20 17:24:11 <Bish> poll : what u guys think? will it have a wifi chip?
May 20 17:24:19 <MrC_> ok thx
May 20 17:24:19 <SpeedEvil> Eventually.
May 20 17:24:20 <Bish> MrC_: read the FAQ
May 20 17:24:22 <SpeedEvil> Not in 2 weeks
May 20 17:32:21 <Cray> What is P1+. Haven't seen anything in mailing lists... Is it community initiative? ))
May 20 17:32:44 <SpeedEvil> No
May 20 17:32:50 <SpeedEvil> It's the hardware revision after P1
May 20 17:33:01 <SpeedEvil> but before P2 - which is the September mass market release
May 20 17:33:10 <SpeedEvil> Will include wifi
May 20 17:33:12 <Bish> should be :P
May 20 17:33:14 <Bish> YAY !
May 20 17:33:15 <Cray> Wow
May 20 17:33:20 <Bish> really SpeedEvil ?
May 20 17:33:23 <Bish> thats fuking cool :P
May 20 17:33:25 <SpeedEvil> In theory.
May 20 17:33:49 <SpeedEvil> I'm reluctant to say 'will' until it's actually buyable.
May 20 17:33:58 <Cray> And what is heard about accelerometr?
May 20 17:34:05 <SpeedEvil> Dunno
May 20 17:34:39 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: That's the script I use. What do you like to tell me?
May 20 17:36:26 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: But I still searching for something that is able to handle the svn commit, too. Without manual copy'&'paste
May 20 17:36:27 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: oh, if you use that script I have nothing to point out
May 20 17:36:27 <thomasg_> according to the mailinglist there are no plans to include the accelerometer in p1(+)
May 20 17:36:31 <thomasg_> but we'll see
May 20 17:36:39 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: heh
May 20 17:36:54 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: I think webkit has that as well
May 20 17:37:45 * stefan_schmidt hunts some more changelog scripts...
May 20 17:38:48 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Any chance you have some time for openmoko today?
May 20 17:38:49 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebKitTools/Scripts/commit-log-editor
May 20 17:39:38 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: The description sounds what I like to have.
May 20 17:39:55 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: I have not used it, so have fun finding out how it works
May 20 17:40:12 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: As always with perl scripts. ;)
May 20 17:40:36 <zecke|study> well, then the answer is "by pure luck"
May 20 17:40:39 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: I'll try to find out and use it when I commit the next time
May 20 17:41:06 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: yes. give me 3 more hours to finish my setup (i'll blog about it, it's a disease...) and then I'm all OM
May 20 17:41:35 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: No hurry. I just have to patches in the pipe which I like to see in the P1 image
May 20 17:41:37 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: https://thomas.apestaart.org/moap/trac
May 20 17:42:06 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: i know, time is running out, but i had some severe hardware and network problems here in the new home
May 20 17:42:17 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: btw, openmoko-panel-startup is working fine now.
May 20 17:42:51 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: yeah, but if you have some time in the evening we should go well
May 20 17:43:25 <mickeyl> oki, cool
May 20 17:44:40 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: I also have a bunch of questions and ideas, but that can wait. Just relax.
May 20 17:46:46 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: Cool. Why you have all the links I'm searching for? :)
May 20 17:47:04 * zecke|study mumbles something about sith power
May 20 17:47:42 <stefan_schmidt> heh
May 20 17:58:28 * aloril2 remembers seeing mention that hardware(P1+)==hardware(P2), maybe from somebody in core team
May 20 17:59:03 <SpeedEvil> IMO. Assuming things that were said months back still apply...
May 20 18:19:39 <alphaone> mickeyl, stefan_schmidt: Cool, I'll also be doing OM stuff tonight.
May 20 18:20:11 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: welcome back. Still alive after the THW weekend?
May 20 18:20:23 <alphaone> But I should probably rest until then.
May 20 18:20:29 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: Barely :-)
May 20 18:20:45 <alphaone> It was quite a weekend.
May 20 18:22:12 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: Any schedule for tomorrow already?
May 20 18:25:14 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: I guess I'll work.
May 20 18:25:45 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: Which work? OpenMoko?
May 20 18:25:53 <alphaone> yeah
May 20 18:26:17 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: Do I have anything else to work on? :-)
May 20 18:26:47 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: You could finish your work at the datacenter :)
May 20 18:27:05 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: Define "finish" :-)
May 20 18:27:24 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: finish = Get_you_hours_done;
May 20 18:27:39 <alphaone> heh
May 20 18:28:55 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: I'm temped to come around tomorrow. I'll let you know later.
May 20 18:29:21 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: okay. No problem
May 20 18:36:18 <alphaone> mickeyl: Just read your post. Sounds like you had a really bad week. :-(
May 20 18:56:57 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[User:Marcin]] [[Minimo]]
May 20 19:13:38 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03werner * r2045 10/trunk/oe/packages/libmrss/ (. files/ files/better-parse-url-r0.patch libmrss_0.17.2.bb): 
May 20 19:13:38 <CIA-24> openmoko: Patch by Stefan Schmidt to fix
May 20 19:13:38 <CIA-24> openmoko: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=569
May 20 19:16:01 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: There you go
May 20 19:18:16 <Bish> :>
May 20 19:21:21 <zecke|study> stefan_schmidt: and it built
May 20 19:22:00 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: As expected :)
May 20 19:22:20 <stefan_schmidt> zecke|study: I'll close the bug
May 20 19:49:38 <Elrond> Oh why is monotone update soooo slow?
May 20 20:05:37 <don-o> Elrond: ive had the same problem. it can take Hours
May 20 20:08:32 <pjz> well,t he real question is: if it's so slow why does OE use it?
May 20 20:24:15 <CoreDump|home> its not generally slow
May 20 20:24:23 <CoreDump|home> only "migrate" tages ages
May 20 20:32:49 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - pull has done 10% in 50 CPU Minutes on my machine...
May 20 20:33:46 <Elrond> pjz - I have given up on asking _that_ question in any project.
May 20 20:34:18 <CoreDump|home> Elrond: are you pulling from an empty db?
May 20 20:37:45 <babbleback> anyone out there?
May 20 20:37:46 <aloril> babbleback: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 20 20:38:07 <chreeka7> haha
May 20 20:38:13 <babbleback> whats funny
May 20 20:38:21 <chreeka7> aloril
May 20 20:38:26 <babbleback> oh
May 20 20:38:44 <babbleback> why is it that there are so many channels full of people but quiet?
May 20 20:40:02 <chreeka7> these techie channels are full of people who run an irc client 24/7 (self included)
May 20 20:40:26 <CoreDump|home> yep
May 20 20:40:29 <babbleback> meaning you just leave it on even when you are not there?
May 20 20:40:36 <chreekat> yep
May 20 20:41:52 <babbleback> i'm new to irc, but I thought i saw something to indicate that you are away
May 20 20:42:36 <chreekat> me? Well, I usually set an away status, but actually it hasn't been set in a while
May 20 20:43:22 <babbleback> so have these phones been released yet?
May 20 20:43:29 <LuitvD> not yet
May 20 20:43:42 <LuitvD> first production run will be soon
May 20 20:43:49 <chreekat> "soon"
May 20 20:43:50 <chreekat> hehe
May 20 20:43:53 <LuitvD> lol
May 20 20:43:55 <babbleback> I have a treo, but I don't want to buy microsft visual C in order to write code for my phone
May 20 20:43:57 <LuitvD> yeah ... 'soon' 
May 20 20:44:14 <LuitvD> babbleback: why didn't you buy the palm os version then? :P
May 20 20:44:19 <morten_> How soon is 'soon'?
May 20 20:44:21 <chreekat> unfortunately, it's been 'soon' for a while. But it looks like the current guess is ~week
May 20 20:44:43 <chreekat> as indicated by the counter:
May 20 20:44:44 <chreekat> counter
May 20 20:44:44 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 6 days 15:15:13 (6.636 +-5.0 days) (1222;210)
May 20 20:45:13 <morten_> =) looking better than ever then
May 20 20:45:13 <LuitvD> first production run was planned for 10-5, but was delayed, so the release date was pushed back a week or two too
May 20 20:45:18 <babbleback> LuitvD, it was a mistake... i got my girlfriend a palm OS PDA and I regret my choice
May 20 20:45:30 <LuitvD> hmm
May 20 20:45:40 <babbleback> windows mobile blows
May 20 20:45:50 <babbleback> i have never seen software do stranger things
May 20 20:45:54 <LuitvD> win-CE smartphones/pdas are crap... I hate palmOS too nevertheless
May 20 20:46:11 <babbleback> regularly... i get some new random as shit happen every day
May 20 20:46:19 <thomasg_> the biggest problem witht win mobile is the terrible usability
May 20 20:46:50 <morten_> All the oses for smartphones/pdas taday are propitary and locked down, openmoko will really be something different
May 20 20:46:51 <LuitvD> worst part of palmOS is the terrible 3rd-party software
May 20 20:47:07 <babbleback> thomasg_, i disagree... the problem is that it crashes 
May 20 20:47:26 <thomasg_> on my htc univserse I never had a crash
May 20 20:47:27 <LuitvD> morten_: yes, moko will just be the good old plain linux for everyone :)
May 20 20:47:27 <morten_> babbleback, Hehe ;D
May 20 20:47:49 <LuitvD> and we'll beat ubuntu at this one I hope...
May 20 20:48:00 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: ok, i'm here. what do i need to do?
May 20 20:48:01 <morten_> Yeah =D
May 20 20:48:23 <morten_> Openembedded uses plain old x, yes?
May 20 20:48:39 <LuitvD> yup, I guess it was matchbox on X
May 20 20:48:41 <babbleback> it has a gps antennea... will that mean only the software.. which we will write.. will be required?
May 20 20:49:01 <LuitvD> babbleback: what do you mean?
May 20 20:49:04 <mickeyl> OE can build a variety of images, both using X or not
May 20 20:49:12 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: yes.
May 20 20:49:20 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: You get positions out of gpsd
May 20 20:49:30 <babbleback> LuitvD, will users still have to pay for some service in order to locate with gps
May 20 20:49:33 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: Or NMEA directly. (well - through the binary blob)
May 20 20:49:37 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: Nop
May 20 20:49:40 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: Free
May 20 20:49:43 <LuitvD> babbleback: gps is 
May 20 20:49:48 <LuitvD> babbleback: gps is 'free'
May 20 20:49:54 <babbleback> thats nasty in and of itself
May 20 20:49:57 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: yeah, give me some minutes to finish some other tasks
May 20 20:49:59 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: gps is paid for by the american taxpayer.
May 20 20:50:05 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: sure thing. 
May 20 20:50:11 * mickeyl gets something for dinner
May 20 20:50:14 <morten_> Just wondering: any of you know if google earth has an sdk/api for their map system. just think how great that'd be on the neo
May 20 20:50:25 <SpeedEvil> morten_: the problem is basically.
May 20 20:50:41 <SpeedEvil> morten_: None of the web-maps allow you to legally download stuff and use it later
May 20 20:50:42 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: that's why I hate gps... it's american property
May 20 20:50:59 <LuitvD> they can shut us off the network at any time
May 20 20:51:07 <SpeedEvil> morten_: Because getting permission to distribute maps to end users is _EXPENSIVE_
May 20 20:51:10 <LuitvD> or decrease accuracy
May 20 20:51:34 <SpeedEvil> morten_: Licenses for them to view is _much_ cheaper.
May 20 20:51:40 <SpeedEvil> Interestingly.
May 20 20:51:55 <morten_> SpeedEvil, I see
May 20 20:52:07 <SpeedEvil> Look on the AGPS page on the wiki.
May 20 20:52:23 <SpeedEvil> The technique described at the end
May 20 20:52:42 <SpeedEvil> This would also completely remove the effect of selective availability
May 20 20:52:48 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: so you're saying that telling the end-users to get a map somewhere is cheaper then to buy an agreement to supply it to the end-users?
May 20 20:53:12 <morten_> SpeedEvil, If we want to have full maps on the neo without internet connection they'd anyway needed to be in vector format though. because of space
May 20 20:53:32 <SpeedEvil> LuitvD: google maps - for example. Tehy buy maps from one of two sources. The license for them to display maps to end users is cheap. The license for users to download maps is _expensive_.
May 20 20:53:50 <SpeedEvil> morten_: You can get a hell of a lot on a 1G SD
May 20 20:53:52 <LuitvD> ah, i see
May 20 20:54:01 <babbleback> what about the live switch from your cell service provider and voice over ip via the wifi?
May 20 20:54:19 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: that requires interaction with the cell provider.
May 20 20:54:25 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: So not soon.
May 20 20:54:26 <morten_> SpeedEvil, yeah, but i'd like some music too ;)
May 20 20:54:28 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - I was pulling into a db created from http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/OE-this-is-for-mtn-0.31.mtn.bz2
May 20 20:54:49 <Elrond> mickeyl!! :)
May 20 20:54:52 <CoreDump|home> hmm dunno then
May 20 20:55:04 <babbleback> SpeedEvil, but you could use the wifi for voice over ip instead of using your cell service provider as an option before callling right?
May 20 20:55:13 <SpeedEvil> Sure - if you have wifi nearby.
May 20 20:55:19 <LuitvD> meh, time for me too get out of here...
May 20 20:55:20 <SpeedEvil> And the phone you're using has wifi
May 20 20:55:41 <LuitvD> see ya, people
May 20 20:55:44 <SpeedEvil> Wave
May 20 20:55:46 <morten_> See ya
May 20 20:56:45 <SpeedEvil> morten_: There is http://www.openstreetmap.org/ but it sucks.
May 20 20:56:52 <morten_> Btw, SpeedEvil you have any inside knowledge of the phase 2 hw?
May 20 20:56:56 <SpeedEvil> morten_: And I say this as a contributor. Maybe in 10 years.
May 20 20:57:03 <SpeedEvil> morten_: I did.
May 20 20:57:12 <SpeedEvil> morten_: But then I realised it was a dream.
May 20 20:57:15 <babbleback> SpeedEvil, i thought the neo1973 had wifi... 
May 20 20:57:20 <babbleback> SpeedEvil, now i don't see it
May 20 20:57:24 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: Not P1
May 20 20:57:45 <SpeedEvil> P1+ - which probably is a couple of months out with a discount for P1 buyers - yes.
May 20 20:57:57 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Neo1973]] [[Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
May 20 20:57:59 * zecke wonders what a GtkViewport is...
May 20 20:58:06 <babbleback> SpeedEvil, what about the bluetooth then... use that as a connection to your computer that will then foward the call?
May 20 20:58:11 <morten_> babbleback, There will be two phases bubble. Phase one is for the impatient and the dewelopers. i won't have all the hardware as the final model
May 20 20:58:15 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: yes - you can do that.
May 20 20:58:28 <SpeedEvil> babbleback: Or via usb-net
May 20 20:59:02 <babbleback> then usb wifi dongles?
May 20 20:59:17 <guaqua> no power in moko usb
May 20 20:59:19 <babbleback> or usb tv tuners?
May 20 21:00:53 <Elrond> zecke - Showing part of another widget, if I remember correctly... my gtk time is 5 years ago... Nowadays I create super simple GUIs for my work stuff in python-gtk. ;o)
May 20 21:01:34 <zecke> Elrond: yes, either I get GtkViewport + GtkScrolledWindow to play nicely or I need to develop my own...
May 20 21:01:53 <zecke> is there any way to see if a GtkWidget is inside a container/bin?
May 20 21:03:10 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2046 10/trunk/oe/ (4 files in 4 dirs): * Activate the new openmoko-panel-startup by default.
May 20 21:07:17 <babbleback> what US cell service providers will one be able to use the phone with?
May 20 21:08:27 <pjz> anyones that take GSM
May 20 21:08:58 <Elrond> zecke - Any Widget except GtkWindow has to be in a container.
May 20 21:09:29 <mjr> babbleback, apparently Cingular, wasit T2 or something, and a variety of smaller providers
May 20 21:09:38 <zecke> how to get my parent?
May 20 21:09:45 <zecke> the one I was added to...
May 20 21:10:07 <Elrond> zecke - gtk_widget_get_parent
May 20 21:10:09 <babbleback> so verizon is cmda only?
May 20 21:10:57 <mjr> such is one's impression
May 20 21:15:03 <babbleback> well the iphone looked nice till i saw this
May 20 21:19:18 <babbleback> what would be a difficulty in running various linux programs on the machine... say to add lynx ( don't know why you would need to ) but say you wanted to
May 20 21:19:45 <morten_> Hehe, Iphone is completely locked down, only certified developers can make programs, that's the definition of crap
May 20 21:20:08 <babbleback> not for normal people...
May 20 21:21:00 <babbleback> most people just need it to work.. we want more
May 20 21:21:02 <mjr> babbleback, on iphone or neo, you mean?
May 20 21:21:09 <babbleback> on neo
May 20 21:21:11 <morten_> babbleback, Well, being normal all the time is boring
May 20 21:21:14 <mjr> for iphone, morten_ said it
May 20 21:21:18 <babbleback> morten_, i agree
May 20 21:21:20 <mjr> for neo, easy
May 20 21:21:21 <zecke> Elrond: do you know if one can create 1000000x100000 GdkWindows?
May 20 21:21:42 <babbleback> mjr, good
May 20 21:22:16 <Elrond> zecke - I think, it's a short int only.
May 20 21:22:52 <morten_> quite cool that since openembedded is linux we allready have the worlds biggest app database, before viritually any has the phone
May 20 21:22:56 <Elrond> zecke - Why do you want such a huge GdkWindow?
May 20 21:23:49 <zecke> Elrond: I might have such a website
May 20 21:24:05 <morten_> zecke, Lol
May 20 21:24:46 <zecke> Elrond: I want something like a GtkScrolledWindow with a GtkDrawable inside but the drawable should never allocate more width/height than the viewport
May 20 21:24:54 <morten_> zecke, you mean like: http://worlds-highest-website.com/
May 20 21:24:57 <zecke> Elrond: but I still need the scrollbars to work
May 20 21:26:21 <Elrond> zecke - Oh, you try to create GtkHtml from scratch or so?
May 20 21:26:39 <zecke> no, WebKit/Gdk and teaching it scrolling with scrollbars
May 20 21:27:04 <zecke> But I'm not sure if I need to go the GtkTextView way and provide my own lightweight, scrollable widget
May 20 21:27:14 <zecke> or if the GtkViewport+GtkScrolledWindow will work
May 20 21:28:10 <Elrond> I *think* Viewport can only scroll widgets with a GdkWindow.   But You do not want such a large GdkWindow (it hurts performance, and yes, I remember 64k Pixels was the limit).
May 20 21:28:40 <Elrond> zecke - So I *think* you should highly consider the "lightweight, scrollable widget".
May 20 21:28:57 <aloril> (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Moving finished (sort of) http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/05/20/moving-finished-sort-of/
May 20 21:29:32 <Elrond> zecke - GtkHtml might be a source for learning other solutions to this problem.
May 20 21:46:26 <Sufflope> counter
May 20 21:46:26 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 6 days 14:13:31 (6.593 +-5.0 days) (1223;210)
May 20 22:01:03 <Kensan> Does anybody know what happened to projects.openmoko.org? Is it known to admins etc. that it's broken atm?
May 20 22:02:52 <Elrond> Kensan - I don't know.
May 20 22:12:30 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - Running the stuff on a way faster machine helps a lot. But I don't like this "Oh, it's slow? Buy new hardware"-approach.
May 20 22:13:24 <CoreDump|home> I never said that. But if you run OE on ancient hardware, you shouldn't complain about its speed =)
May 20 22:14:12 <Elrond> Well, git is lots faster on this machine. ;o)
May 20 22:14:32 <CoreDump|home> =D
May 20 22:15:07 <Elrond> Okay, on a 2.9GHz machine: 10% == 10 CPU minutes.
May 20 22:43:00 <shawarma> Will the nao1973 support 3G connectivity?
May 20 22:43:00 <aloril> shawarma: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 20 22:45:33 <shawarma> If it's in the FAQ, I don't see it.
May 20 22:45:34 <Elrond> shawarma - If 3G == UMTS:  The version in september will not have that.
May 20 22:45:49 <Elrond> only gprs.
May 20 22:46:11 <shawarma> Elrond: I don't know if 3G is the same as UMTS.. It may be. :)
May 20 22:46:40 <hads> Typically. The answer is no anyway.
May 20 22:46:48 <shawarma> Elrond: It's the term that usually refers to the ability to do high speed data transfers (>512 kbits/second).
May 20 22:47:00 <shawarma> hads: I see.
May 20 22:47:16 <hads> As Elrond said, for the September version.
May 20 22:47:57 <shawarma> Is it planned for a later version?
May 20 22:48:05 <shawarma> Or is it just "post-september"?
May 20 22:48:23 <Elrond> Official answer: We don't know.  (and those who might know, are NDA'd)
May 20 22:48:33 <shawarma> Figures.
May 20 22:49:10 <Elrond> Inofficially, it has been said, that if this whole thing will be a success, there will be more and different hardware thingies to choose from.
May 20 22:49:34 <shawarma> Coolio.
May 20 22:50:00 <Elrond> But you should not hold your breath.
May 20 22:50:20 <rwhitby> nor make a decision to buy on anything but published facts
May 20 22:50:29 <stefan_schmidt> I think we can at least say that this is designed as a platform and not a single product. But let us see how Neo1973 will go
May 20 22:50:43 <shawarma> The thing is that I'll definitely want an Openmoko phone, but I'd also like to have a device that gives me some fort of mobile broadband.
May 20 22:51:09 <shawarma> It'd just be nice if that would be one and the same device.
May 20 22:51:20 <shawarma> Until then, I suppose, I'll just carry two devices.
May 20 22:51:24 <Elrond> shawarma - Well, not "today" ;)
May 20 22:51:31 <shawarma> Elrond: Right.
May 20 22:51:56 <shawarma> Oh, well. It's still megacool. :-)
May 20 22:52:12 <hads> Right on :)
May 20 22:52:38 <Elrond> It's a really nice thing, yes. :-))
May 20 22:52:49 <Elrond> Except my mum says, it's too large. ;o)
May 20 22:52:58 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: It's still alive? ;)
May 20 22:53:56 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Using a newer kernel helped the jffs2 crappiness. I guess I should compile my onw, as the 1883-kernel on buildhost does not like the backlight. ;o)
May 20 22:55:07 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: oh, 1883 is the latest on buildhost?
May 20 22:55:22 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: We need to update then
May 20 22:55:32 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - The latest, for which the modules are available as .ipk and inside the rootfs.
May 20 22:55:59 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Ah so you need to do full update kernel+rootfs
May 20 22:56:00 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - There's a r2006 kernel too, but without modules as .ipk. I'll try that kernel tomorrow.
May 20 22:56:35 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - I have ipkg install'd a bunch of modules. And none of the ones I missed looked like backlight.
May 20 22:57:01 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Backlight is build in now, isn't it?
May 20 22:57:33 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - I'd assume so, as I saw "/sys/class/backlight", but nothing useful there.
May 20 22:57:34 <stefan_schmidt> Anyway, a full matching update is a good idea
May 20 22:58:14 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Not sure. I haven't touched kernel code for weeks now
May 20 22:58:57 <Elrond> I'll try the 2006 tomorrow and see, if that helps. (despite no matching rootfs available)
May 20 22:59:10 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: btw, we should consider to update the u-boot as well as the new one have safety against wrong flashing
May 20 22:59:53 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: For the u-boot I would suggest I let test a version here an a bv3 with debug board in the other hand and give you the link to a working one.
May 20 23:00:27 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: But I fear I have no time for this before next weekend
May 20 23:01:59 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - No problem. :-) Having a "known-to-work-on-P0" u-boot version would be good anyway. (Harald asked me to update u-boot in response to my kernel-oops. I asked him for the known-to-be-good-version. Did not yet get an answer.  See Bug#567)
May 20 23:02:58 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Many people get no answer. He really need to focus on some other things. Not nice, but a must
May 20 23:03:14 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Yeah. :-)
May 20 23:03:33 <Elrond> That's why it's in the buglog. So other people can answer. ;)
May 20 23:04:05 <stefan_schmidt> exactly
May 20 23:36:58 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 570 has been created by jluebbe@lasnet.de
May 20 23:36:59 <cdbot2> * * Text in the mainmenu is unreadable
May 20 23:37:00 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=570
May 20 23:38:41 <AusMounty> hello folks :)
May 20 23:38:47 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: ah, filling bugs :)
May 20 23:38:59 <stefan_schmidt> hi AusMounty 
May 20 23:39:07 <AusMounty> Hey Stefan
May 20 23:39:09 <Shoragan> :)
May 20 23:39:47 <AusMounty> May I ask who might know if the FIC Neo1973 is going to be released here in Oz?
May 20 23:39:48 <aloril> AusMounty: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 20 23:40:11 <stefan_schmidt> AusMounty: Wordwide direct sale
May 20 23:40:29 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: You still have your bv3, right?
May 20 23:41:01 <AusMounty> ok... I am very interested in this device but need to know if it passes the standards commission testing here in Oz...
May 20 23:41:10 <Shoragan> yea, i'm reading your thoughts
May 20 23:41:41 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: I hope you don't do this all the time. ;)
May 20 23:41:45 <rwhitby> AusMounty: my P0 and P1 devices both work here on Vodaphone ...
May 20 23:41:50 <parag0n> all the parts used within it are FCC (etc) certified. in the US i know that means the entire phone is, dont know about aus
May 20 23:41:56 <AusMounty> ah cool...
May 20 23:42:00 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: Would be nice to help Elrond anyway :)
May 20 23:42:00 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: Yeah, I'm sitting next to Shoragan currently :-)
May 20 23:42:35 <Elrond> .oO(Braunschweig Connection :-) )
May 20 23:42:39 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone, Shoragan: hmm, hackloft time without me? How should I think about this? ;)
May 20 23:42:44 <AusMounty> what town are you in whitby? roughly :)
May 20 23:43:23 <rwhitby> adelaide
May 20 23:43:58 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: You can come over any time. Think of it that you are a lazy ass who prefers to stay at home ;-)
May 20 23:44:25 <AusMounty> rwhitby: cool... I am currently using a Motorola V3x with Telstra but I am an ardent Linux user
May 20 23:44:58 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: heh
May 20 23:45:03 <alphaone> stefan_schmidt: And I can understand you very good. The stair to Shoragan were almost more than I was willing to walk today :-)
May 20 23:45:33 <rwhitby> AusMounty: Treo650 here.  Neo1973 gta01 won't replace it, but I'm working so that a future version with a keyboard will replace it.
May 20 23:46:26 <Elrond> alphaone - *giggle*
May 20 23:47:04 <parag0n> i wish i had a neo/me stomps on his nokia
May 20 23:47:06 <AusMounty> rwhitby: it is only on a wish list but the next version apparently is suppoed to support wifi
May 20 23:47:18 <parag0n> grr, stupid keyboard
May 20 23:47:56 <AusMounty> doh... missed the s in supposed
May 20 23:48:14 <Shoragan> Elrond, i've flashed my gta01bv3 with the current u-boot
May 20 23:48:19 <Elrond> parag0n - Well, you don't really want the neo NOW as a replacement for your phone. ;-)
May 20 23:48:27 * SpeedEvil does.
May 20 23:48:30 <Shoragan> u-boot-gta01bv3-r8_70124c2602ae2d4c5d3dba05b482d91548242de8_0_2040.bin
May 20 23:48:38 <Shoragan> md5sum 60c5aeba1bd6642b05b3a5e6f2dafe83
May 20 23:48:41 <Shoragan> it works ok
May 20 23:49:04 <parag0n> as long as it can make phone calls and has a battery life longer than 6 hours its better than the nokia :P
May 20 23:49:24 <Elrond> Shoragan - Great... let me download that version and see, if I get that md5sum :)
May 20 23:50:10 <AusMounty> rwhitby: point me to the site to order a Neo? :)
May 20 23:50:47 <Elrond> Shoragan - Great. :-))
May 20 23:50:51 <rwhitby> AusMounty: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce
May 20 23:51:08 <rwhitby> sign up to the announce list and you'll know at the same time as everyone else.
May 20 23:51:16 <Elrond> Shoragan - I'll flash "my" Bv3 with it tomorrow and then update the buglog and the wiki.
May 20 23:51:33 <Shoragan> ok, good
May 20 23:51:43 <stefan_schmidt> thanks Shoragan 
May 20 23:52:18 <Shoragan> just take care that you don't use a version for different hw-release
May 20 23:52:40 <Shoragan> i had to debrick my v4 on friday via jtag
May 20 23:52:45 <stefan_schmidt> Shoragan: After this update this should hopefully never happen again.
May 20 23:52:57 <AusMounty> rwhitby: ok... thanks... dare I ask has anyone anything with a Motorola V3x? OS wise?
May 20 23:53:23 <stefan_schmidt> http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=ChangeLog&curid=2077&diff=8617&oldid=8170
May 20 23:53:42 <rwhitby> AusMounty: no idea.
May 20 23:54:27 <Elrond> Shoragan - I have a Bv3, and the md5sum matched. :-)
May 20 23:54:31 <Shoragan> :)
May 20 23:54:39 <Elrond> (I'll put the md5sum on the buglog/wiki anyway.)
May 20 23:56:35 <AusMounty> well folks I have some of that nasty 4 letter word to do W O R K! ugh oh well has to be done
May 20 23:56:57 <AusMounty> later all and thanks rwhitby
May 20 23:57:01 <Elrond> AusMounty - Don't remind me...
May 20 23:58:55 <babbleback> would a usb monitor be able to be connected? and a usb keyboard?
May 20 23:59:23 <SpeedEvil> Yes, in theory, no in practice, and yes
May 20 23:59:34 <cjb> the usb ports don't provide power.
May 20 23:59:36 <SpeedEvil> There are no USB1.1 monitor chips
May 20 23:59:38 <SpeedEvil> That too
May 21 00:00:02 <SpeedEvil> Small relatively cheap bluetooth keyboards would seem to be the solution.
May 21 00:01:18 <Elrond> And the usb-host-switching code still has "TODOs" in it, that sound like "some GPIOs have to be set correctly to get pull-up/down thingies correct" or the like... 
May 21 00:01:23 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
May 21 00:01:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03alphaone * r2047 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/ (5 files in 3 dirs): 
May 21 00:01:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: * data/icon_app_task{list,switch}.png: Added.
May 21 00:01:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: Add the old images for the footer.
May 21 00:01:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: * data/Makefile.am, src/footer.c (footer_init):
May 21 00:01:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: Show the old images instead of the new ones.
May 21 00:02:54 <Elrond> Huh, why old/new?
May 21 00:03:00 <babbleback> why would a new product have old USB on it?
May 21 00:04:31 <SpeedEvil> Because USB2 is expensive to implement.
May 21 00:04:36 <Elrond> babbleback - It's an old (but stable and nice) SoC.
May 21 00:04:38 <SpeedEvil> In terms of power and silicon area.
May 21 00:04:46 <SpeedEvil> That too.
May 21 00:04:55 <cjb> SpeedEvil: do you know if it has a higher polling burden, too?
May 21 00:05:02 <SpeedEvil> Umm.
May 21 00:05:07 <SpeedEvil> I don't, no.
May 21 00:05:15 <SpeedEvil> I think it's still 1Khz.
May 21 00:05:21 <Elrond> Okay... I did not even understand the question.
May 21 00:05:49 <cjb> I mean burden on the kernel, I guess.  USB1 sucks power because you don't get host interrupts the way you would on sane technology.
May 21 00:05:55 <alphaone> Elrond: Because the "old" images look cleaner
May 21 00:06:20 <Elrond> alphaone - Okay. :-)
May 21 00:06:26 <cjb> So I was wondering if they made anything more interrupt-like for USB2.  I don't know much about it.
May 21 00:06:28 <alphaone> So old images are the new ones :-)
May 21 00:07:13 <Elrond> cjb - Ahh. I don't know, if OHCI is better than UHCI in this area.
May 21 00:07:39 <cjb> certainly you can save about a watt in UHCI by turning on CONFIG_USB_SUSPEND.
May 21 00:07:42 <cjb> (!)
May 21 00:10:48 <Elrond> cjb - We have ohci on the SoC.
May 21 00:11:38 <Elrond> Good night people. :-)
May 21 00:11:46 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03alphaone * r2048 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/openmoko-footer: 
May 21 00:11:46 <CIA-24> openmoko: * openmoko-footer: Change text color to white to improve readability
May 21 00:11:46 <CIA-24> openmoko: and fix indentation
May 21 00:12:02 <babbleback> what is SoC
May 21 00:13:25 <SpeedEvil> System On Chip
May 21 00:13:29 <stefan_schmidt> night folks
May 21 00:13:36 <stefan_schmidt> ~soc
May 21 00:13:40 <apt> somebody said soc was System On Chip - many embedded cpus include a variety of peripherals as well which makes them more than just a CPU.
May 21 00:14:15 <SuN> Be careful though, it's often used as Summer of Code as well in this channel.
May 21 00:19:16 <babbleback> is that summer of code for college students only?
May 21 00:24:18 <balrog-kun> no, for all (or most) kinds of students
May 21 00:58:57 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Messages]] [[Talk:System_Info]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
May 21 01:15:03 <sparq> Bother. MokoMakefile has shat itself.
May 21 01:17:26 * sparq peers suspiciously at openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svnnow
May 21 01:25:00 <sparq> Hmm... "warnings are being treated as errors." Does anyone know how to tell it to treat warnings as warnings?
May 21 01:31:17 <balrog-kun> remove -Werror from CFLAGS?
May 21 01:31:21 * balrog-kun is off
May 21 01:33:49 * sparq rummages around for the offending file
May 21 01:53:02 <sparq> Wow, this package is completely borked.
May 21 01:54:24 <sparq> Anyone know how one can just skip rssreader?
May 21 01:59:55 <DukeOfURL> mine crashed on rssreader as well...
May 21 02:15:45 <sparq> Let's see if a noop Makefile will let me go on
May 21 02:31:15 <sparq> OK... so far so good... now let's see if I can remove it from the dependency list of task-openmoko-pim
May 21 02:39:58 <sparq> ye gods, this is complicated
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 21 02:59:57 2007