**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 14 02:59:57 2007 Jun 14 04:24:36 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] Jun 14 05:24:36 (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: First week in Taipei http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/06/14/first-week-in-taipei/ Jun 14 05:25:35 Ah, a perfect read to start the workday :) Jun 14 05:25:58 Shame it doesn't say "the phones are being put on sale tomorrow", though :) Jun 14 05:26:22 Hehe, true Jun 14 05:27:04 s/omorrow/oday/ Jun 14 06:18:56 openmoko: 03mickey * r2244 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/openmoko-panel-mainmenu.pro: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: catch up with new dependencies in .pro file Jun 14 06:25:36 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ/nl]] Jun 14 07:05:53 any word on the shipping date? Jun 14 07:15:49 good morning Jun 14 07:16:01 good morning Hopscotch Jun 14 07:21:56 openmoko: 03mickey * r2245 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (5 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-libs: add MokoBanner Jun 14 07:21:56 openmoko: 03mickey * r2246 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ChangeLog: update Jun 14 07:22:08 empty_mind, Jun 14 07:22:45 Sufflope, Jun 14 07:22:48 Sup3rkiddo, Jun 14 07:23:21 empty_mind, have the git thing ready Jun 14 07:23:40 Sup3rkiddo, read the docs and tutorials properly Jun 14 07:24:23 empty_mind, sure...doing that Jun 14 07:31:35 morning Jun 14 07:51:07 hi there. Jun 14 08:03:27 Will there be a 3g release of OpenMoko? anything lower than 3g is being phased out in Australia:( Jun 14 08:05:16 darmou: openmoko is software Jun 14 08:06:08 Sry the Neo1973 is what I meant Jun 14 08:06:58 counter! Jun 14 08:10:19 darmou: I'm sure FIC will release a 3G phone eventually, but it won't be the Neo Jun 14 08:10:35 * CM is hoping for more info from FIC soon, as usually.. Jun 14 08:10:50 counter Jun 14 08:12:36 darmou: gsm/gprs is not being phased out in Australia. Jun 14 08:12:52 I only have 2G phones, and I expect to be using them for at least 5 years Jun 14 08:13:13 I thought Telstra was going to a completly 3g network and 3 hutchenson already is? Jun 14 08:13:20 rwhitby: the fact is that 2G is really a mess. Jun 14 08:13:37 I thought only Optus and Vodaphone were not 3g right now Jun 14 08:13:58 darmou: the only 3g-only operator is '3' Jun 14 08:14:00 vodafone iirc got 3g Jun 14 08:14:06 everyone else has both 2 and 3 Jun 14 08:14:09 yep Jun 14 08:18:48 see http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/06/14/first-week-in-taipei/ Jun 14 08:19:13 darmou: it's the same as the australian government saying that analog tvs will be phased out by 2008 - it ain't gonna happen Jun 14 08:19:31 It's phased out here already.. (.se) Jun 14 08:19:48 analog air broadcast is gone here as well Jun 14 08:20:06 analog cable is still there, but that's privatised Jun 14 08:20:10 * CM enjoys the better picture quality Jun 14 08:20:16 koen but do you have HD tv in Europe? Jun 14 08:20:38 Digital TV rocks I watch it on my computer Jun 14 08:20:48 darmou: We do, but only pay channels. The state tv here has just started to record in HD. Jun 14 08:20:56 if you pay for it or hang a satelite dish out of your window Jun 14 08:21:02 digital and analogue will coexist in australia for quite some time, just like 2g and 3g will coexist Jun 14 08:21:33 rwhitby: It's always like that; old tech is kept longer than people expect Jun 14 08:21:38 the phase-out dates just keep getting pushed further and further out. Jun 14 08:21:39 IPv6... Jun 14 08:22:01 Hey I want an ISP to provide IPv6:( Jun 14 08:22:06 Have to tunnel atm Jun 14 08:22:11 nobody uses IPv6 :) Jun 14 08:22:34 bedboi, perhaps because noone is providing it? chicken and egg Jun 14 08:22:39 Unfortunately.. I'd really like it for mobile stuff, and roaming actually works Jun 14 08:23:09 I want real autoconfig and a real network not NAT Jun 14 08:23:26 darmou: but back to your original question - one would expect there would need to be a 3G capable phone running OpenMoko within a year. Jun 14 08:23:35 Isn't china ipv6 everywhere? Jun 14 08:23:37 rwhitby, thanks Jun 14 08:23:42 whether or not FIC produces it is another matter :-) Jun 14 08:23:44 openmoko runs on the htc-universal Jun 14 08:23:46 * CM digs to find more about that rumour Jun 14 08:23:57 which is a 3g fridge that can make calls Jun 14 08:24:28 i agree. we're going to find us 3g hardware within 18 months. Jun 14 08:24:36 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] Jun 14 08:24:56 darmou: there you go - you don't get a more official answer than from mickey_fic :-) Jun 14 08:25:27 mickey_fic, rwhitby really cool:) Jun 14 08:35:12 so will we hear anything about those mysterious new devices this summer? Jun 14 08:35:18 whereas summer ends in august ;) Jun 14 08:36:01 * buz would still love a qwerty GTA 02 Jun 14 08:49:53 make qemu doesnt have a check for zlib-devel Jun 14 08:55:35 how long does make flash-qemu-local lasts? Jun 14 08:55:46 i've a pretty decent CPU, c2d 1.8 Jun 14 08:57:57 counter Jun 14 08:57:57 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) P1: 4 days 03:01:59 (4.126±4.0 days) (1461;229) Jun 14 08:58:31 meh, I'm glad graduation's counter doesn't bungie back and forth like this one Jun 14 09:00:04 counter Jun 14 09:00:05 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) P1: 4 days 02:59:51 (4.125±4.0 days) (1462;229) Jun 14 09:01:51 aloril: why do you guess the HXD8 doesn't have GSM? Jun 14 09:04:35 aloril: I think that looking at the gpio.txt makes it quite clear it does feature a GSM module at least Jun 14 09:05:03 LuitvD: "it's not a phone" is what I heard Jun 14 09:05:19 also note that the gpio.txt is a copy of the gta01 one Jun 14 09:08:13 U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. Jun 14 09:08:18 how can i "fix" it ? Jun 14 09:12:18 thresh: dfu-util? Jun 14 09:12:45 eh? that's make flash-qemu-local or something Jun 14 09:12:57 ah.. then no idea Jun 14 09:15:00 * stefan_schmidt mumbles that not only phones need GSM. Jun 14 09:15:19 counter Jun 14 09:15:19 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) P1: 4 days 02:44:36 (4.114±4.0 days) (1463;229) Jun 14 09:35:44 mornin' Jun 14 09:36:38 hi steph Jun 14 09:39:24 * LuitvD is stressing out Jun 14 10:06:14 moin Jun 14 10:06:55 i again have a compiling error Jun 14 10:07:10 this time located in the openmoko-libs package Jun 14 10:07:48 ... Jun 14 10:07:56 jepp Jun 14 10:08:31 nobody96: Looked in bugzilla to see if it's a known bug? Jun 14 10:09:17 dont find any building issues Jun 14 10:09:54 would you care to tell us more details? Jun 14 10:10:28 im searching for a working pastebin already :) Jun 14 10:10:36 pastebin.ca? Jun 14 10:12:05 http://pastebin.ca/566129 Jun 14 10:12:50 with MACHINE = "fic-gta01" this time Jun 14 10:13:15 woglinde, nearly forgott to thank you :) Jun 14 10:13:43 nonody no prob Jun 14 10:13:55 nobody96: fixed. thanks Jun 14 10:14:08 cool :) Jun 14 10:14:39 next time i should set my locales to C fist Jun 14 10:14:53 makefile dependcy error Jun 14 10:15:19 moko-banner.lo, right? Jun 14 10:15:31 yes Jun 14 10:15:36 i forgot to checkin the new moko-banner files Jun 14 10:15:41 they're in now Jun 14 10:15:41 slowly i learn how to find the bugs Jun 14 10:16:03 maybee i will also learn to fix them my self Jun 14 10:16:09 but im not used to c Jun 14 10:16:12 yeah! :) Jun 14 10:16:32 hm its not c actually Jun 14 10:16:37 only autotools Jun 14 10:17:28 ok, i widen it to c and friends Jun 14 10:17:33 * CM is afraid of autotools Jun 14 10:17:51 im only used to java and therefore ant Jun 14 10:18:21 CM, i dont think it will bite us :) Jun 14 10:21:50 it works. thanks :) Jun 14 10:22:10 cm autotools rock unfortnatly most of the developers dont take a 30 minute course to understand the conecpts Jun 14 10:23:17 woglinde: I know, and I should really sit down and go though that stuff. Even printed a tutorial for it, just never got started. :) Jun 14 10:23:57 cm that resulst in crude thinks like patching Makefile.in Jun 14 10:25:36 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[See_GpsTracker]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Input_Method]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jun 14 10:28:18 i nearly jump out of my chair everytime qemu plays the startup sound Jun 14 10:28:47 is there any way to get this fixed or is this a known and yet unfixed bug? Jun 14 10:29:53 nobody96: Plying the startup-sound is a feature not a bug :) Jun 14 10:30:10 *g* Jun 14 10:30:19 but here it sounds like cat /vmlinux > /dev/dsp Jun 14 10:31:34 lol Jun 14 10:31:52 nobody96: that is the best description of a sound I've ever seen written out! ;-P Jun 14 10:32:14 yeah, "listen to your heart^Wkernel" Jun 14 10:33:01 heh Jun 14 10:37:01 btw. i think the dialer shouldnt look like this http://blueboot.org/qemu-dialer.jpg Jun 14 10:37:42 or am i wrong? Jun 14 10:37:53 uh fun Jun 14 10:37:57 how did you manage to get this? Jun 14 10:38:20 make update setup openmoko-devel-image flash-qemu-local run-qemu Jun 14 10:39:18 nobody96: what is this black "slot" at the right side for? Jun 14 10:39:30 mickey_fic: thomas did something to it in reaction to bug #600. Jun 14 10:39:44 pH5: hmm, yeah. sounds like the Jun 14 10:39:45 there have been buttons Jun 14 10:39:50 'fix' doesnt quite cut it Jun 14 10:40:01 but i think they are misplaced now Jun 14 10:40:13 is this broken for anyone else? Jun 14 10:40:36 I think he removed the fixed button sizes and changed the icons to stock icons (which don't show up here for some reason). Jun 14 10:40:41 I thought that might be where you swipe your credit card - Jun 14 10:41:01 heh, looks likeit Jun 14 10:42:11 wouldnt be a good idear to ram a creditkard in the display of your longly awaited fic Jun 14 10:43:15 Couldn't hurt it more than when I dropped mine on pavement ... Jun 14 10:44:18 rwhitby-n800, and, is the case as though as i thougt? Jun 14 10:44:33 (Just a couple of scratches on the case - still works fine. Jun 14 10:44:39 nice Jun 14 10:45:42 The aux button had to be reseated due to the case popping open a bit at that end. Jun 14 10:46:33 when i get my hands on one it will hopefully take a bit longer than it took my x40 to look like its looking today Jun 14 10:46:57 but my hardware gets the "worked with" look really fast Jun 14 11:01:24 Huh, falsches Fenster. Jun 14 11:01:26 tihi... the new button sizes make entering numbers way more easier. ;o) Jun 14 11:02:46 Elrond: but del/history/call buttons are scary Jun 14 11:03:21 hrw - Who needs them anyway? ;o))) Jun 14 11:03:39 ;D Jun 14 11:03:46 re Jun 14 11:05:40 Elrond: new button sizes? Jun 14 11:05:44 Elrond: can we have screenshots? Jun 14 11:06:26 Vegar - Not from me: http://blueboot.org/qemu-dialer.jpg Jun 14 11:06:57 uhm.. Jun 14 11:06:58 ok Jun 14 11:07:11 hehe Jun 14 11:08:09 hrw - hrw - Can you try a "nand lock status" in u-boot after freshly powering up a Bv3 (*4) and see, if it scrolls like mad for you too? Jun 14 11:12:44 it is but it is what it has to do rather Jun 14 11:12:57 it checks page after page on my bv4 Jun 14 11:13:20 Right, but on my Bv3 all pages are different. Some are "LOCK TIGHT UNLOCK" even. Jun 14 11:13:30 ... some are UNLOCK, etc. Jun 14 11:14:46 hm Jun 14 11:24:07 * nox-Hand w00ts silently Jun 14 11:25:18 hrw - Same for you? Jun 14 11:26:27 nox-Hand, wats the meaning of woot? Jun 14 11:26:58 nobody96: haha Jun 14 11:27:05 nobody96: It's a lame idea made by some gamers - a sort of battle cry, but now it is mainly used as a "yay/wohoo" exclaimation. Jun 14 11:27:19 * CM remembers the great game Nox and woots ;) Jun 14 11:27:35 * nox-Hand blinks in CMs general direction Jun 14 11:27:40 im not used to the l33t stuff Jun 14 11:27:48 nobody96: Soo, the term woot also starts conversation ;) Jun 14 11:27:52 See* Jun 14 11:28:31 nobody96: good, steer clear of "1337 5p34k" please ;) It's annoying :] Jun 14 11:28:43 looks a bit like monty pythons explanation of f**k Jun 14 11:28:43 woot is just social :D Jun 14 11:29:15 * nox-Hand has not seen that :[ Jun 14 11:29:17 I believe woot origins from the word what Jun 14 11:29:19 put it all together, woot can mean anything Jun 14 11:29:28 k Jun 14 11:29:41 Hmn, subject change perhaps? ;-) Jun 14 11:29:52 ok Jun 14 11:30:01 * CM wants Nox on the Neo! Jun 14 11:30:18 CM: What the hell is Nox? O_o Jun 14 11:30:22 "w00t, w00T or WOOT — First two express exuberance, the latter is a backronym for the term 'We Own the Other Team'" Jun 14 11:30:22 Have to see if I can find that old game Jun 14 11:30:47 Vegar, thx Jun 14 11:30:48 nox-Hand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nox_(computer_game) Jun 14 11:31:01 i completly forgott the jargon file Jun 14 11:31:50 CM: In a terminal, no browser ;) Jun 14 11:32:53 nox-Hand: Ok. A Diablo2-style linear rpg from Westwood in 2000 Jun 14 11:33:18 Right :) Thanks Jun 14 11:33:42 CM: I have been playing Sonic The Hedgehog 3 lately ;) Jun 14 11:33:47 For the Sega Megadrive Jun 14 11:34:31 nox-Hand, try lynx Jun 14 11:34:34 works fine Jun 14 11:34:39 nobody96: I use links2 :] Jun 14 11:34:49 But I have too much to do, should not be here, really Jun 14 11:34:50 even better Jun 14 11:35:18 I have a physics book to read (exam tomorrow) a room+bathroom to clear up and I gotta mow the lawn >_< Jun 14 11:35:34 So.. I get back to work =) Jun 14 11:35:55 Laters Mokoheads! =)) Jun 14 11:36:16 nox-Hand: If you want - you could add more numbers to [[accelerometer fundamentals]] :) Jun 14 11:36:18 Wave. Jun 14 11:38:01 * nox-Hand blinks at SpeedEvil Jun 14 11:38:04 +_o Jun 14 11:38:40 * SpeedEvil needs to add a little dancing phone animation. Driven by accelerometer noise inputs. Jun 14 11:39:57 SpeedEvil: the Neo1973 doesn't have an accelerometer does it? o_O Jun 14 11:40:06 not yet Jun 14 11:40:15 Vegar: didn't think so Jun 14 11:40:19 This is what rocks about this project Jun 14 11:40:30 "We don't have this in our phones.. let's add it! =D" Jun 14 11:40:35 GTA02 apparently has accelerometers Jun 14 11:41:20 \o/ Jun 14 11:41:32 Vegar: be back later - really gotta get back to work Jun 14 11:41:38 * nox-Hand closes terminal Jun 14 11:41:40 enjoy Jun 14 12:03:50 any word on the QA progress yet? Jun 14 12:04:35 buz, i am right, 150 out of 200 had the green signal Jun 14 12:04:57 i meant the run after that Jun 14 12:05:02 (or maybe i'm confused) Jun 14 12:05:22 LaF0rge said he'd do QA himself this week Jun 14 12:08:20 buz: yesterday and today Jun 14 12:08:22 counter Jun 14 12:08:22 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 55%) P1: 3 days 23:55:47 (3.997±4.0 days) (1464;229) Jun 14 12:08:34 news maybe weekend Jun 14 12:08:37 55 omg! Jun 14 12:08:38 oh ok Jun 14 12:37:07 good morning Jun 14 12:37:47 I just read mickeyl's post--I wonder what they're up to in Taipei... Jun 14 12:40:47 Wrap party? Jun 14 12:40:57 (with shrink-wrap machines) Jun 14 12:53:33 Maybe building openmoko.com? Jun 14 12:53:36 (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for Jun 14 14:10:16 hi Jun 14 14:15:34 do the developer phones that have shipped so far work as phones? i.e. do they interoperate with carriers? specifically, t-mobile? and specifically, GPRS internet traffic? Jun 14 14:16:17 people have reported successfully calling and starting up a gprs connection with them Jun 14 14:16:36 I don't have one, and apparently some firmwares have problems with calling still Jun 14 14:16:41 versions, that is Jun 14 14:17:03 early days indeed, then. Jun 14 14:19:16 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973] Jun 14 14:19:48 I've been doing some PDA/phone hacking here and there for about 10 years ( currently sidekick sync http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/palmagent/ and previously http://www.w3.org/Tools/pypsion/ ). and I do Web Architecture and standards for a living, and my sidekick 2 is showing it's age, and I'm doing research on a replacement ( http://del.icio.us/connolly/mobile+shopping ). Jun 14 14:20:59 I almost plunked down for a new t-mobile dash/htc excalibur... I thought I could try both phones for a trial period, but no, the data plans are exclusive. Jun 14 14:24:24 I'm sure interested in openmoko... I'm trying to decide if I can afford to get in at the developer level or if I should wait 6 months and join at the mass market stage. Jun 14 14:24:34 afford the time/risk, that is Jun 14 14:25:07 I totally rely on PDA calendar functionality. Jun 14 14:25:20 depend, even Jun 14 14:25:55 with openmoko you can fix/add features yourself... Jun 14 14:26:25 yes... the opensource tradeoff... where the other side is: you often have to fix/add features yourself. Jun 14 14:27:01 for me it isn't tradeoff, but advantage Jun 14 14:27:43 and I don't think, that calendar will be crap/buggy Jun 14 14:27:57 I'm purposefully multi-platform; for a while, my laptop was linux and my desktop was Windows NT; now my desktop is linux and my laptop is a mac. There are definitely advantages on both sides. Jun 14 14:28:20 I'm pretty hopeful/confident about a basic calendar, yeah. Jun 14 14:28:35 and I'd be happy to hack on, say, openid auth for calendar subscription Jun 14 14:28:48 dates don't seem to me to be basic Jun 14 14:29:00 or how that calendar app is called Jun 14 14:29:02 indeed, timezone support on PDAs is non-trivial. Jun 14 14:29:34 I'm still trying to figure out how timezones work on the sidekick, and I've been studying it for several years. Jun 14 14:29:55 (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for Jun 14 14:33:02 I wonder about price, too. carrier-subsidized prices are hard to resist. My sidekick was pretty much free after rebate... but more importantly, when I broke it, t-mobile only charged me $70 to replace it. I'm not sure I'm willing to carry around something that costs $350 to replace. Jun 14 14:33:16 you can get insurance. Jun 14 14:33:20 oh? Jun 14 14:33:22 Or your home insurance may cover it. Jun 14 14:33:31 Check your policy. Jun 14 14:33:51 I'm pertty sure the deductible on my homeowners policy is around $500. Jun 14 14:33:56 k Jun 14 14:34:20 is there some sort of insurance for the Neo devices? Jun 14 14:34:53 DanC: suppose you can get some separate insurance for the thing. Jun 14 14:35:08 DanC: You can buy insurance for pretty much anything. Jun 14 14:35:09 DanC carrier subsidized prices are nice, but open platforms are nicer Jun 14 14:35:13 * DanC googles... finds a pretty active mobile phone insurance market... Jun 14 14:35:35 I have a Nokia 770, which costs as much as a cell phone, but doesn't have a cell radio Jun 14 14:35:43 and it isn't fully open Jun 14 14:35:50 but I still think its worth every penny Jun 14 14:36:22 compared to my laptop, its cheap Jun 14 14:36:41 do you have insurance on your laptop? Jun 14 14:36:48 making phone calls from the car is an important use case for me, and that convinced me not to get a Nokia 770 Jun 14 14:37:01 I don't own my laptop. my employer does. Jun 14 14:37:02 the 770 isn't a phone Jun 14 14:37:16 the only "calls" it can make are VOIP Jun 14 14:37:18 yes, I know the 770 isn't a phone. that's why I don't have one. Jun 14 14:37:42 since going from 2 devices (pda + cellphone) to 1, I'm not likely to go back. Jun 14 14:38:01 DanC: http://pimlico-project.org/dates.html Jun 14 14:38:05 I wasn't recommending the 770, just pointing out that there is a lot of value in an open platform Jun 14 14:38:36 which you won't be getting from a carrier subsidized device anytime soon Jun 14 14:38:44 I'm all about open platforms. (I work for W3C). How have you used the openness of the 770? Jun 14 14:39:03 yes Jun 14 14:40:11 the communication service is part of the platform; I suppose we might have 802.11 everywhere in our lifetimes, but I'm not sure I see how that can work, economically. And the established carriers will, like the established music labels, not go down without a fight. Jun 14 14:40:51 ads is a key Jun 14 14:41:41 ads driven society... Jun 14 14:41:54 sure, I'm just pointing out that the price of a 1973 seems small to me compared to the benefits it provides Jun 14 14:42:45 ad-driven society... sorta depressing in one sense (http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199405/msg00037.html ) but google style auctions bring a certain satisfying market efficiency. Jun 14 14:43:14 but if you are looking for your ultimate pda/phone combo, I can't imagine that a development model of anything would fit your needs Jun 14 14:43:18 any particular benefits come to mind, juco? Jun 14 14:43:40 the lack of a thumb keyboard is a pretty big issue for me. Jun 14 14:44:04 to me, unrestricted access to bluetooth is worth the price alone Jun 14 14:44:06 yeah... the development models are tempting, but I probably can't afford the time to really go that route. Jun 14 14:44:35 doesn't a typical blackberry or whatnot have unrestricted bluetooth? Jun 14 14:44:41 no Jun 14 14:44:54 blackberry requires code signing Jun 14 14:44:57 its not expensive Jun 14 14:44:59 $100 Jun 14 14:45:03 really? interesting. I thought it was just the sidekick that had goofy bluetooth restrictions. Jun 14 14:45:22 but every app you put on has to be submitted for signing (its automated, but requires a windows application) Jun 14 14:45:45 isn't the sidekick windows mobile? Jun 14 14:45:51 no Jun 14 14:45:58 oh, but the replacement is, right? Jun 14 14:46:03 the sidekick has its own software platform, by danger Jun 14 14:46:15 the t-mobile dash is windows mobile, yes Jun 14 14:46:16 windows mobile 6 should have working bluetooth apis from MS Jun 14 14:46:25 oh, right Jun 14 14:46:52 older versions of windows mobile have widcom bluetooth stacks, or incomplete MS stacks Jun 14 14:46:53 I got the impression that restrictions on software installation were mostly from the carriers. I don't see how openmoko can get around those. Jun 14 14:47:05 a widcomm stack requires very expensive windows only development tools Jun 14 14:47:24 they are most certainly not from the carriers Jun 14 14:47:35 well, that's not true Jun 14 14:47:56 they are from the carriers, but only as a condition as accepting their subsidized phones Jun 14 14:48:10 if you buy your own devices, the restrictions don't apply Jun 14 14:48:41 now, carriers like Verizon don't allow non Verizon devices on their network Jun 14 14:48:43 hmm... I wonder about that... I can imagine the carrier might only provide a DHCP lease (or equivalent) to trusted phones. Jun 14 14:49:04 they could, but it would be a silly thing to do Jun 14 14:49:12 at least with GSM Jun 14 14:49:30 anybody have direct experience with t-mobile and the Neo? Jun 14 14:49:35 one of the key benefits of GSM is that it provides strong network security Jun 14 15:14:42 Is it normal for the make setup on the MokoMakefile to pause at 'openmoko/trunk/doc/design-documents-v2/OpenMoko top panel Footer and pulgins.doc Jun 14 15:15:06 Or, has it hung up on me? Jun 14 15:15:37 DanC: uk? Jun 14 15:16:10 t-mobile has a UK presence? Jun 14 15:16:14 yes Jun 14 15:16:50 I'm actually considering them for my Neo. Jun 14 15:17:06 On pay-as-you-go, with 1 pound/day GPRS Jun 14 15:17:12 our internet will be t-mobile soon... Jun 14 15:17:22 * aloril2 should now notice within 1-20 minutes when Neo1973 becomes available including night Jun 14 15:17:23 1 pound a day? :| Jun 14 15:17:24 damn Jun 14 15:17:40 so you only pay on the days that you use it? Jun 14 15:17:41 The cheapest GPRS I can find on contract is about 27 per month - total. Jun 14 15:17:46 i'm with T-Mobile for my mobile phone Jun 14 15:17:48 (in the UK here) Jun 14 15:17:50 Good company IMO Jun 14 15:17:59 here the cheapest HSDPA and lower contract is 10 bucks Jun 14 15:18:05 euros that is Jun 14 15:18:10 SpeedEvil: in the UK? Jun 14 15:18:15 Placid: yes Jun 14 15:18:25 Placid: so $50 or so. Jun 14 15:18:29 (us) Jun 14 15:18:46 40 euros is a massive amount... Jun 14 15:18:54 SpeedEvil: i use T-Mobile for my mobile. they do a web 'n' walk (as you probably know). that's only 7.50 a month. i'm going to be using my t-mobile sim card in the neo Jun 14 15:19:14 Placid: But that's only with a contract SIM Jun 14 15:19:16 wow, that's a nice price Jun 14 15:19:25 So the total price is some 27/mo Jun 14 15:19:31 my contract is $130 US Jun 14 15:19:38 but that's two lines, and work pays for some of it Jun 14 15:19:41 you can't add webnWalk to the 7.50/mo SIM only pay-monthly Jun 14 15:19:45 juco: yes, subject to 2GB monthly data allowance however. Jun 14 15:19:54 Placid: it's from 7,50 euros a month here Jun 14 15:19:56 that's still good Jun 14 15:19:56 stupid allowances from hell Jun 14 15:20:02 SpeedEvil: ahh yes, sorry I forgot that part. i've had a contract phone for years now, so I forget. Jun 14 15:20:09 I know, sxpert-work. I hate it too Jun 14 15:20:40 damn, I need to live in another country Jun 14 15:20:48 US cell companies are terrible Jun 14 15:20:59 Placid: It works out so that if I use it less than 3 weeks in a month - or rather use it mobile internet for more than a few K, I can just buy days here and there. Jun 14 15:21:12 juco: there's no such thing as a "us cell company"... Jun 14 15:21:24 * DanC catches up... Jun 14 15:21:39 SpeedEvil, I'm a t-mobile U.S.A. customer. Jun 14 15:21:39 SpeedEvil: using the t-mobile £1 a day thingy? Jun 14 15:21:43 Placid: in a similar way, I've realised that instead of buying insurance for my second car (larger, used to do 'stuff' - it's possible to insure it by the day - and it's cheaper if it's not used >1/mo Jun 14 15:23:08 sxpert-work I'm not sure I follow that Jun 14 15:23:29 DanC: heh Jun 14 15:23:32 juco: considering everyone and their mother uses a different system... Jun 14 15:23:48 But 40M for a day, for a pound is not a terrible one. Jun 14 15:23:50 juco: you have a series of proprietary radio communications operators... Jun 14 15:23:51 I assume the Neo will take any sim card regardless of company, right? Jun 14 15:24:00 yes Jun 14 15:24:01 SpeedEvil: indeed. Jun 14 15:24:11 juco: and you have no chance of being able to use the neo there Jun 14 15:24:12 Though not '3' - they blacklist GSM only phones. Jun 14 15:24:22 sxpert-work ? Jun 14 15:24:35 there is plenty of gsm coverage in the us Jun 14 15:24:35 Here in Canada, thru Rogers, 100MB a month costs CDN $100 Jun 14 15:24:45 Placid - Yes. Unless the company does REALLY bad things. Jun 14 15:24:47 some of it is 850 Jun 14 15:24:57 juco: I though all the rage was about EVDO and other crap Jun 14 15:25:03 We have the priciest data plans in the world, I believe. Jun 14 15:25:39 juco: last time I was there, it was either sprint PCS, verizon whatever it was, or nextel, all incompatible with each other and requiring different phones Jun 14 15:25:48 Which is why WiFi is a must-have for my day-to-day use handset. Jun 14 15:26:10 SpeedEvil: really?! Jun 14 15:26:23 sxpert-work, the two largest cell companies in the US are AT&T (formally Cingular) and Verizon Jun 14 15:26:48 AT&T is GSM and WCDMA (UMTS HSDPA) Jun 14 15:26:52 Verizon is CDMA Jun 14 15:26:55 alurdun__: me too Jun 14 15:27:06 and the the various evolutions of the (EVDO, etc) Jun 14 15:27:13 Verizon is worth than worthless Jun 14 15:27:19 so AT&T would be the only one that you'd be able to use with the neo, as I understand Jun 14 15:27:23 they only allow verizon phones Jun 14 15:27:36 there are other smaller GSM carriers Jun 14 15:27:43 T-Mobile USA for one Jun 14 15:27:58