**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jun 16 02:59:56 2007
Jun 16 03:26:38 <rwhitby> dfu downloads sure take a long time on bv4 compared to bv3 ...
Jun 16 03:27:14 <loufoque> does minimo suck that much?
Jun 16 03:27:17 <Readon> svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused
Jun 16 03:27:17 <Readon> what's happened on the server?
Jun 16 03:32:07 <Readon> how to submit a patch? i think uboot-gta01_svn.bb has a bug on svn checkout
Jun 16 03:34:24 <rwhitby> Readon: sure it's not just a server outage?
Jun 16 03:34:33 <rwhitby> (i.e. it worked for me a couple of hours ago)
Jun 16 03:38:29 <Readon> svn checkout svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches;proto=http
Jun 16 03:38:29 <Readon> svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused
Jun 16 03:38:29 <Readon> i check it manually,but it can't work.but  svn checkout http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches would work
Jun 16 03:38:29 <Readon> but bb could not do as i wanted,using http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches
Jun 16 03:45:00 <rwhitby> svn co http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches works here
Jun 16 03:45:52 <Readon> rwhitby, but i can't put http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches into the bb file
Jun 16 03:46:13 <rwhitby> correct - the text in the bb file does what I pasted above
Jun 16 03:46:45 <rwhitby> the proto=http overrides the svn://
Jun 16 03:46:59 <Readon> which version are you using?
Jun 16 03:47:04 <rwhitby> try bb again now, cause the server is up.
Jun 16 03:47:13 <rwhitby> I'm using MokoMakefile.  what version of what?
Jun 16 03:47:19 <Readon> bitbake
Jun 16 03:47:35 <rwhitby> MokoMakefile controls the bitbake version.  how are you building?
Jun 16 03:47:57 <Readon> it told me that svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches' in revision 11
Jun 16 03:49:05 <rwhitby> "svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openmoko.org': Connection refused" is not a bitbake problem
Jun 16 03:49:36 <rwhitby> are you using MokoMakefile, or rolling your own?
Jun 16 03:50:24 <Readon> i am using it
Jun 16 03:50:43 <rwhitby> have you re-run it now that I've confirmed the server is up?
Jun 16 03:51:00 <Readon> i try that manually
Jun 16 03:51:02 <_llll_> connection refused sounds like network/firewall issues to me
Jun 16 03:51:17 <Readon> i think it's true
Jun 16 03:51:19 <rwhitby> cause you still haven't proven to me that it's not a server outage that caused your failure
Jun 16 03:51:55 <rwhitby> (and there's been no change to that recipe in the last four hours since it worked for me here)
Jun 16 03:52:15 <Readon> but that is out of our control, you know , perhaps it's about damn "gold guard"
Jun 16 03:53:59 <rwhitby> Readon: has this worked for you before, or is it the very first time you've tried to build?
Jun 16 03:54:02 <Readon> server is ok, i can checkout with command svn co http://...
Jun 16 03:54:02 <Readon> rwhitby, maybe the recipe has not tested in mainland.
Jun 16 03:54:14 <rwhitby> mainland?
Jun 16 03:54:14 <Readon> china
Jun 16 03:54:19 <rwhitby> ah
Jun 16 03:54:23 <happycube> ohhh  - filters?
Jun 16 03:54:37 <Readon> it's worked before.
Jun 16 03:55:06 <Readon> but when i rm build dir and rebuild it, it's failed.
Jun 16 03:56:08 <rwhitby> have you re-run it now that I've confirmed the server is up?
Jun 16 03:57:00 <Readon> it's a long time
Jun 16 03:58:33 * rwhitby goes to lunch
Jun 16 03:58:35 <Readon> i want to try bitbake -b uboot-gta01_svn.bb
Jun 16 04:04:45 <aloril> mwester: are you there? can I quote you in counter page?
Jun 16 04:06:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Skull_Death]]
Jun 16 04:15:12 <aloril> mwester: well, for now I quote you without names
Jun 16 04:19:52 <aloril> based on yesterday discussion:
Jun 16 04:19:54 <aloril> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%)
Jun 16 04:19:54 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) 
Jun 16 04:20:10 <aloril> combined probability for <= 2007-07-07 is still 70% ;-)
Jun 16 04:21:04 <aloril> (date based on what Sean said in video at Tossug meeting)
Jun 16 04:52:57 <aloril> from ML: "the speculation that has been running rampant through the message boards"
Jun 16 04:53:05 <aloril> what message boards?
Jun 16 04:59:14 <Readon> NOTE: Fetch svn://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot;module=patches;proto=http
Jun 16 04:59:48 <Readon> svn: Unable to find repository location for 'http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches' in revision 11
Jun 16 04:59:48 <Readon> NOTE: Task failed: Fetch failed: patches
Jun 16 04:59:48 <Readon> the problem remains
Jun 16 05:40:29 <aloril> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for
Jun 16 05:40:29 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for 
Jun 16 05:44:51 <_llll_> "40% for" ?
Jun 16 05:50:19 <aloril> counter
Jun 16 05:50:19 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 03:04:48 (3.128±3.1 days) (1480;229)
Jun 16 05:51:43 <_llll_> what does the 1480;229 signify?
Jun 16 05:51:47 <aloril> hmm.. maybe I should have argument for probability (default would be for 50% maybe?)
Jun 16 05:51:54 <madwoota> its a counter for the counter :P
Jun 16 05:51:54 <aloril> see link above
Jun 16 07:16:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2270 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: 
Jun 16 07:16:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: * implement pcf50606 RTC driver
Jun 16 07:16:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: * use PCF50606 RTC rather than S3C2410 RTC, in accordance with hardware/kernel
Jun 16 09:02:53 <Sup3rkiddo> matchbox-panel in the current svn head is broken
Jun 16 09:06:58 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 613 has been created by sudharsh(AT)gmail.com
Jun 16 09:06:59 <cdbot2> * * Matchbox panel broken in Rev:2270
Jun 16 09:07:01 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=613
Jun 16 09:14:51 <PBeck> hallo
Jun 16 09:43:45 <nobody96> moin
Jun 16 09:44:56 <nobody96> oh, the first time mickey is not here when i am
Jun 16 09:45:10 <aloril> first reaction after reading this "Sony Ericsson Shows Off Feature-Heavy Cell Phones" was 'who cares, its not FOSS anyway' ;-)
Jun 16 09:45:19 <nobody96> how do i leave him a message that his new svn checkin contains an error?
Jun 16 09:47:37 <koen> nobody96: file a bug
Jun 16 09:47:43 <nobody96> k
Jun 16 09:53:58 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 614 has been created by ruediger(AT)blueboot.org
Jun 16 09:53:59 <cdbot2> * * wrong XSession option
Jun 16 09:54:01 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=614
Jun 16 09:59:35 <kiney_> counter
Jun 16 09:59:36 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 01:00:10 (3.042±3.0 days) (1481;229)
Jun 16 10:03:11 <nobody96> i dont like the possibility movement regarding P1+/P1.5 (GTA02)
Jun 16 10:05:06 <SpeedEvil> I think there is no point at all in the probability.
Jun 16 10:07:43 <nobody96> but thats all we have :)
Jun 16 10:09:07 <nobody96> but guessing the P1.5 release date is in fact hardly possible
Jun 16 10:37:20 <Elrond> Hi rwhitby-n800 :)
Jun 16 10:43:42 <kiney_> counter
Jun 16 10:43:43 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:38:07 (3.026±3.0 days) (1482;229)
Jun 16 10:53:44 <PBeck> 3 days :>
Jun 16 10:54:12 <PBeck> that will be wonderfull :)
Jun 16 11:11:03 <SpeedEvil> Is advertising - on specific pages - appropriate on the wiki? I'm wondering about a 'Stuff for sale' page that I might put a link to a site of mine that sells Neo stuff on it.
Jun 16 11:20:03 <minime> i don't know though i'd appreaciate it ;)
Jun 16 11:21:40 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - You should at least put a big warning header at the top. ;o)
Jun 16 11:28:48 <wehttamb> counter
Jun 16 11:28:49 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:15:34 (3.011±3.0 days) (1483;229)
Jun 16 11:29:16 <wehttamb> counter
Jun 16 11:29:17 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:15:19 (3.011±3.0 days) (1484;229)
Jun 16 11:37:32 <Elrond> counter-flooding. ;o)
Jun 16 11:39:46 <LuitvD> counter?
Jun 16 11:39:46 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 3 days 00:10:05 (3.007±3.0 days) (1485;229)
Jun 16 11:39:47 <LuitvD> :P
Jun 16 11:40:21 <LuitvD> Elrond: I don't get why everybody checks the counter that frequently...
Jun 16 11:40:44 <LuitvD> I never type 'counter' and I always know the ETA and probability
Jun 16 11:42:01 <Elrond> LuitvD - I have given up on counter. ;o)
Jun 16 11:42:28 <LuitvD> I just don't look at it :P 
Jun 16 11:42:39 <LuitvD> planet.openmoko.org is much more accurate
Jun 16 11:42:54 <LuitvD> (making your own guesses
Jun 16 11:44:47 <Elrond> Well, yeah.
Jun 16 11:44:57 * Linux_Galore waves
Jun 16 11:45:02 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r2271 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/ (neo1973.c usb-bt.c): Correctly release the POWER button.
Jun 16 11:45:57 <Linux_Galore> are we any closer to a release date yet ?
Jun 16 11:45:58 <aloril> Linux_Galore: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 16 11:46:18 <Linux_Galore> already done
Jun 16 11:46:23 <Elrond> Linux_Galore - Check http://planet.openmoko.org/
Jun 16 11:46:48 <Linux_Galore> I want to get my hands on one and do some hacking
Jun 16 11:48:13 <Linux_Galore> Elrond: doesnt tell me much other than they have a small run done
Jun 16 11:48:57 <Elrond> Linux_Galore - What sort of hacking do you want to do?
Jun 16 11:49:47 <Linux_Galore> Elrond: making it work with servers, ie remote admin of servers
Jun 16 11:50:25 <Linux_Galore> it has ssh support so half the job is done
Jun 16 11:51:20 <Linux_Galore> Elrond: having a mobile phone that can do ssh is a serious life saver for many *nix admins
Jun 16 11:52:06 * CoreDump|home would prefer a PDA w/ kbw for that
Jun 16 11:52:14 <Linux_Galore> right now I drag a laptop around with a wireless network modem 
Jun 16 11:52:16 <CoreDump|home> *kbd
Jun 16 11:52:27 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r2272 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/pcf5060x.c: Keep re-issuing ONKEY1S irq for as long as the button is down.
Jun 16 11:52:46 <Linux_Galore> CoreDump|home: the openmoko has bt so you should be able to hack on a bluetooth keyboard
Jun 16 11:53:21 <CoreDump|home> correct, but you'd have to carry that with you all the time ;)
Jun 16 11:53:25 <Linux_Galore> I dont like phone/pda with a built in qwerty keyboard to be honest, they are next to useless 
Jun 16 11:53:45 <Linux_Galore> CoreDump|home: well the units Ive got weigh less than most mobile phones
Jun 16 11:54:20 <Linux_Galore> CoreDump|home: they also fold up
Jun 16 11:55:15 <CoreDump|home> to each his own I guess. I have a neo here and a Zaurus SL-C3200. The kbd and screen of the Z are way better suited for ssh sessions, trust me
Jun 16 11:55:44 <Linux_Galore> yeah Ive got a 5600, I didnt like the keyboard
Jun 16 11:56:24 <Elrond> What I can say for sure: Neo + on_screen_kbd is horror.
Jun 16 11:56:54 <Elrond> It took me >10mins to power up BT in the train. ;o)
Jun 16 11:57:04 <Linux_Galore> Elrond: yeah, Im not a fan of touch screens to be honest either
Jun 16 11:57:33 <Linux_Galore> ie greasy hands on screens dont mix
Jun 16 11:58:02 <Elrond> If the keyboard would support landscape mode better, it would be lots better.
Jun 16 11:58:13 * Linux_Galore wonders is Simbian have a ssh client that works with a nokia N95
Jun 16 11:58:59 <miip> Linux_Galore:  http://s2putty.sourceforge.net/
Jun 16 11:59:06 <Elrond> Linux_Galore - About hacking: Unless there's something to do to get BT-keyboards to work, the neo should have evdrything already.
Jun 16 11:59:28 <Elrond> ... except gtkterm2 is a bit... strange.
Jun 16 11:59:32 <CoreDump|home> Elrond: they already work out-of-the-box
Jun 16 11:59:40 <Linux_Galore> miip: woow, just what I needed
Jun 16 12:00:41 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - Nice to hear. :)
Jun 16 12:01:47 <Elrond> The only usable BT device in my home is the Neo. ;o)
Jun 16 12:02:03 <Linux_Galore> well right now I have a Nokia N95 with a bluetooth keyboard (fold out model), works really well (I type emails in landscape mode on the train) , I just wanted better access to some servers but htanks to miip that seems to now be solved
Jun 16 12:02:18 <Linux_Galore> thanks*
Jun 16 12:02:39 <SpeedEvil> So can anyone sum up the current state of installed apps on the latest builds?
Jun 16 12:03:15 <Linux_Galore> I had a look at the screen shots for the openmoko,   not to be insulting it reminds me allot of the human theme for Ubuntu
Jun 16 12:03:26 <SpeedEvil> s/latest/most-functional/ possibly
Jun 16 12:03:50 <SpeedEvil> Well - there are only so many ways to arrange little icons.
Jun 16 12:03:57 <SpeedEvil>  /...
Jun 16 12:04:41 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Working as in "usable in real life"?
Jun 16 12:04:59 <Elrond> s/Working/"most-functional"
Jun 16 12:05:11 <SpeedEvil> I'm just wondering what the latest state is.
Jun 16 12:06:35 <Elrond> Well, I don't know really. I don't flash a whole rootfs. I update particular packages on an "as I feel like ti" basis.
Jun 16 12:06:45 <Elrond> And usually something breaks. ;o)
Jun 16 12:06:59 <Linux_Galore> yeah, many of my fellow *nix geeks are hanging out to try or buy an openmoko
Jun 16 12:08:06 * SpeedEvil hopes the openmoko.com has adequate bandwidth to take a slashdot.
Jun 16 12:08:21 <SpeedEvil> Well - 500 done now, 1K in 2 weeks or so.
Jun 16 12:08:41 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: whats the US$ price
Jun 16 12:08:55 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - What I can say: The base system (u-boot, kernel, basic unix utils, terminal) are very stable now. gtkterm2 has its issues, the on-screen-keyboard (openmoko-keyboard) works only in portrait.
Jun 16 12:09:05 <Elrond> Linux_Galore - $350 is the word since months... we have no updated info.
Jun 16 12:09:32 <Linux_Galore> Elrond: thats pretty cheap, harly make a dent in a *nix geeks budget
Jun 16 12:09:36 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: Well - you can say that! :)
Jun 16 12:09:37 <Linux_Galore> hardly*
Jun 16 12:10:02 <SpeedEvil> Linux_Galore: It's actually fairly cheap - if you compare identical subsidy-free phones.
Jun 16 12:10:29 <SpeedEvil> Not that there are completely identical ones.
Jun 16 12:10:45 <SpeedEvil> As no phones at this level have both no camera and wifi
Jun 16 12:10:49 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: about 25% cheaper than a Nokia N73 for me, not bad
Jun 16 12:11:54 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: shame really, I would have paid for the extra functionality 
Jun 16 12:12:09 <Elrond> Linux_Galore - The GTA02 will have wifi.
Jun 16 12:12:12 <SpeedEvil> It's not really a question of payment - at least for wifi
Jun 16 12:12:19 <SpeedEvil> it was more a question of available chips
Jun 16 12:12:20 <Elrond> (but no info on availability or price yet)
Jun 16 12:12:57 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: you will be up against the Motorols Z6 later this year and it has wifi
Jun 16 12:13:07 <Linux_Galore> and runs Linux
Jun 16 12:13:18 <SpeedEvil> Many phones run linux.
Jun 16 12:13:29 <SpeedEvil> The Samsung A1200, for example.
Jun 16 12:13:31 <Linux_Galore> but none as open
Jun 16 12:13:39 <SpeedEvil> Not usably though.
Jun 16 12:13:58 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: Motorola make the A1200 
Jun 16 12:14:03 <SpeedEvil> Open-source phone apps are a big protection against obsolescence.
Jun 16 12:14:05 <SpeedEvil> Meh.
Jun 16 12:14:15 <SpeedEvil> But you know the point.
Jun 16 12:14:55 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: actually the Moto A1200 "MING" is actually pretty cheap
Jun 16 12:15:13 <SpeedEvil> But, last time I looked, you can't write your own native programs.
Jun 16 12:15:22 <LuitvD> and the motoROKR isn't expensive either...
Jun 16 12:15:23 <Linux_Galore> its technically a clamshell PDA Phone
Jun 16 12:15:42 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: OpenEZX support is getting better every day...
Jun 16 12:15:56 <SpeedEvil> That's reverse engineering isn't it?
Jun 16 12:16:07 <Linux_Galore> there is also a Linux port for the TREO 
Jun 16 12:16:20 <Linux_Galore> it actually boots as of last year on the TREO650
Jun 16 12:16:39 <SpeedEvil> Personally, I really want phone makers that will actually support linux, rather than trying to secure the phone.
Jun 16 12:17:18 <LuitvD> Linux_Galore: that's not that difficult... I already ran linux on my Palm T|E2 1,5 years ago
Jun 16 12:17:33 <SpeedEvil> Though I'd support locked-down Neo phones subsidised, as long as the user is specifically told. And maybe a model number change.
Jun 16 12:17:59 <SpeedEvil> For example, locking it to a provider.
Jun 16 12:18:06 <Linux_Galore> Linux on TREO -> http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/06/linux-on-treo-650-gets-real/
Jun 16 12:18:08 * CoreDump|home looks at his debug board "Locked down? right..:"
Jun 16 12:18:44 <SpeedEvil> As a first cut - squirt a blob of glue over the JTAG connector
Jun 16 12:19:05 <SpeedEvil> There are legitimate other reasons to lock it down.
Jun 16 12:19:09 <CoreDump|home> it wouldn't be a neo1973 then =)
Jun 16 12:19:14 <SpeedEvil> User != root != owner
Jun 16 12:19:31 <SpeedEvil> In all cases.
Jun 16 12:20:08 <SpeedEvil> For example, running data entry apps for parcel delivery, I don't want the driver able to edit the timestamps.
Jun 16 12:20:22 <CoreDump|home> there are tools to manipulate the u-boot boot-environment at runtime
Jun 16 12:20:39 <SpeedEvil> Not if you are running a kernel with appropriate security features.
Jun 16 12:20:58 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - "nand lock tight" in u-boot and editing the uboot env will be harder.
Jun 16 12:21:05 <SpeedEvil> And require a signed firmware image on upgrade
Jun 16 12:21:25 <CoreDump|home> your are making an awful lot of assumptions there. I personally woulf be royally pissed if someone _sold_ me a "Neo1973" that was locked down in this fashion
Jun 16 12:21:30 <SpeedEvil> This would not be the state of the phone as bought of course. 
Jun 16 12:21:41 <SpeedEvil> If you pay $350 for it.
Jun 16 12:22:23 <SpeedEvil> There would be 'lockdown' tools included with the package
Jun 16 12:22:27 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - SpeedEvil wants to buy 1000 at $350 and lock them down to hand them to his employees. ;-))
Jun 16 12:22:36 <SpeedEvil> In principle.
Jun 16 12:23:15 <SpeedEvil> It's even possible for it to be much freer than a normal 'locked' phone - with users able to install apps that run in chroots.
Jun 16 12:23:17 <CoreDump|home> what the customer does after the purchase is hisproblem
Jun 16 12:23:40 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - Right.
Jun 16 12:23:42 <SpeedEvil> Indeed - however, making it possible for customers to do this sort of thing is important.
Jun 16 12:23:54 <CoreDump|home> "There would be 'lockdown' tools included with the package" is probably not going to fly with our FIC folks =)
Jun 16 12:24:03 <SpeedEvil> Why not?
Jun 16 12:24:11 <CoreDump|home> they _want_ it to be open
Jun 16 12:24:18 <CoreDump|home> they market it as such
Jun 16 12:24:19 <SpeedEvil> It's open - to the owner.
Jun 16 12:24:29 <CoreDump|home> it is _the_most_open_phone_ever
Jun 16 12:24:51 <CoreDump|home> if $owner wants to, he can lock it dow himself
Jun 16 12:25:17 <Elrond> He could, if he had the tools. ;-)
Jun 16 12:25:20 <SpeedEvil> Lockdown - call it 'setup for employee' then.
Jun 16 12:25:23 <Elrond> ... that's, what SpeedEvil wants to say.
Jun 16 12:25:39 <SpeedEvil> Option to install only signed apps, ...
Jun 16 12:25:57 <CoreDump|home> Elrond: he has almost complete hardware and software specs and a vanilla build-environment. What more do you need to lock it down?
Jun 16 12:26:05 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Well, the current largest "hole" is u-boot. ;-)
Jun 16 12:26:15 <SpeedEvil> Support in the hardware to a limited extent.
Jun 16 12:26:26 <SpeedEvil> For example, some way to configurably lock out JTAG
Jun 16 12:26:43 <SpeedEvil> In the knowledge that if you screw u-boot, it's new motherboard time.
Jun 16 12:26:56 <SpeedEvil> U-boot can be patched to only take signed stuff though.
Jun 16 12:27:21 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - u-boot would need to be patched to ask a password on the usbtty, etc. ;-)
Jun 16 12:27:29 <SpeedEvil> Sure.
Jun 16 12:27:47 <CoreDump|home> usbtty can be disabled already
Jun 16 12:28:06 <CoreDump|home> u-boot would only be accessible via debug-board and serial console
Jun 16 12:28:27 <SpeedEvil> But - for example - a situation in which anyone with a properly setup laptop, access to your neo, and 60s being able to download all your stuff is bad.
Jun 16 12:28:34 <CoreDump|home> (as long as you keep $user from editing the u-boot environment)
Jun 16 12:28:49 <SpeedEvil> Which is as I understand it is the current case.
Jun 16 12:28:55 <SpeedEvil> (when it goes mass production)
Jun 16 12:29:01 <SpeedEvil> s/laptop/evil-neo/
Jun 16 12:29:06 <balrog-kun> you can reflash u-boot from under linux, and install one that uses LCD/touchscreen for the console
Jun 16 12:30:21 * balrog-kun hopes that there will be a nice gui for reflashing things from under linux at some point
Jun 16 12:30:31 <balrog-kun> and nice app to choose the bootsplash image etc
Jun 16 12:31:24 <SpeedEvil> I have argued for u-boot only accepting signed upgrades for u-boot until the user somehow sets a 'no I am not an idiot' flag.
Jun 16 12:32:02 <SpeedEvil> Which would never need to be set for those who are not developing u-boot
Jun 16 12:33:01 <CoreDump|home> SpeedEvil: that flag would hardly accomplish anything as "The Idiot" does not think of himself as an Idiot.
Jun 16 12:33:24 <SpeedEvil> I just mean that it would be an extra level of oops-proofing.
Jun 16 12:33:44 <CoreDump|home> it should be more difficult to upgrade u-boot, yes
Jun 16 12:33:56 <SpeedEvil> As the flag would not be set by default. It'd need to have a positive action to install a non 'blesssed' u-boot
Jun 16 12:36:19 <Elrond> Well, u-boot breaking is already a bit there.
Jun 16 12:36:41 <Elrond> u-boot accepts only new u-boots for the same hw-revision via DFU.
Jun 16 12:37:02 <CoreDump|home> IIRC P2 will got some r/o NOR flash so you can no longer brick your neo even if you wanted to
Jun 16 12:45:19 * CoreDump|home starts a neo build from scratch
Jun 16 12:46:43 <empty_mind> counter
Jun 16 12:46:43 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 23:36:36 (2.984±3.0 days) (1486;230)
Jun 16 12:46:53 <empty_mind> 2 days hmm lets hope
Jun 16 12:52:47 <SpeedEvil> Indeed - however, there also needs - in a production version - some way of stopping someone with 30s access to your neo getting all your data.
Jun 16 12:53:55 <buz> most phones dont stop people from doing that
Jun 16 12:53:59 <MetaBookfoziS> screen lock?:)
Jun 16 12:54:21 <SpeedEvil> buz: perhaps not. Should we aspire to that?
Jun 16 12:54:44 <buz> people should use dm-crypt if they care that much
Jun 16 12:55:54 <buz> i run it on my notebook, works perfectly
Jun 16 12:56:14 <SpeedEvil> Personally, I don't want people having my encrypted filesystem images, even if they are encrypted.
Jun 16 12:56:15 <buz> and since you wont handle GB of sensitive data, it should not be a speed issue on neo either
Jun 16 12:56:32 <SpeedEvil> If a password on u-boot can fix that.
Jun 16 12:57:02 <SpeedEvil> Yes, it can't fix anything - but trimming off low-hanging fruit isn't a bad idea.
Jun 16 12:57:04 <buz> you need to lock down linux itself if you want to prevent that
Jun 16 12:57:19 <SpeedEvil> Nope - not from an attacker who's got a screenlocked phone.
Jun 16 12:57:28 <SpeedEvil> and the owner has gone to the toilet.
Jun 16 12:57:37 <buz> you want to enter a safe pin length everytime you use it?
Jun 16 12:57:38 <buz> i dont
Jun 16 12:57:53 <SpeedEvil> SAfe pin length isn't the issue.
Jun 16 12:57:58 <buz> security must be convenient or it's worse than useless
Jun 16 12:58:24 <SpeedEvil> Can pull battery, and u-boot to a 'downloader' image, for example.
Jun 16 12:58:36 <SpeedEvil> With a password, that doesn't work.
Jun 16 12:58:54 <buz> or he might simply steal your sd card
Jun 16 12:59:22 <Sup3rkiddo> i am having a rather strange annoyance...my bb's arent getting updated when i update the tree...i edited task-openmoko.bb and added a recipe of my own..is that the problem?
Jun 16 12:59:43 <mickey|fic> yes.
Jun 16 12:59:53 <mickey|fic> monotone won't touch files you've edited
Jun 16 13:00:18 <mickey|fic> well, actually that's not quite true. it tries to merge, doesn't it?
Jun 16 13:00:34 <mickey|fic> mtn update at least.
Jun 16 13:01:12 <Sup3rkiddo> hmm....actually task-openmoko.bb is getting reverted and all my changes are kaput...its the bbs that is not playing game..
Jun 16 13:02:05 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo, did you do make update after changing task-openmoko.bb ?
Jun 16 13:02:21 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, yup...and that changes it
Jun 16 13:02:35 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo, yes it will change it
Jun 16 13:02:51 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2273 10/trunk/oe/packages/xserver-kdrive-common/xserver-kdrive-common/etc/X11/Xserver: * Correct typo for font path. Should close #608.
Jun 16 13:02:58 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo, change task-openmoko.bb afet youdo make update but before you do make
Jun 16 13:03:07 <SpeedEvil> buz: Consider the 'install a keylogger' rather than 'download your data' case then.
Jun 16 13:04:16 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - u-boot/DFU allows straight "backup" of the rootfs image. ;-)
Jun 16 13:04:42 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - No need for downloading special image to u-boot for "backup" ;)
Jun 16 13:04:46 <SpeedEvil> Does DFU even have support for a password?
Jun 16 13:04:56 <Elrond> No :-(
Jun 16 13:04:56 <SpeedEvil> In the protocol I mean.
Jun 16 13:05:02 <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
Jun 16 13:05:08 <Elrond> Or rather: AS I understand it.
Jun 16 13:05:24 <SpeedEvil> Fine - I should read the standard too. :)
Jun 16 13:05:47 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, yeah but my bitbake recipes arent...i had to edit them manually
Jun 16 13:05:47 <Elrond> There's a bug on this open currently: *searching*
Jun 16 13:06:13 <Elrond> http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=207
Jun 16 13:08:51 <Elrond> Entering PINs on-screen in u-boot wont be fun. ;o)
Jun 16 13:09:50 <Elrond> And needig to first minicom into your neo (with password) to enable dfu wont be very userfriendly either... I don't know really for a spec-compliant solution. :-|
Jun 16 13:10:45 <Elrond> Hmm, the password could be first uploaded intoa virtual "password" partition. Only after which DFU to any other partition is allowed.
Jun 16 13:10:47 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: morse your PIN with the AUX button :)
Jun 16 13:11:08 <SpeedEvil> Put voice recognition into u-boot.
Jun 16 13:11:29 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - *lol* The non-geeks will term this is major geek factor. ;o)
Jun 16 13:12:41 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - hehe. So I need to record your vouce using evil-neo first, then wait for you to go to toilet. ;o)
Jun 16 13:13:28 <mickey|fic> apt: convert 150 UKP to EUR
Jun 16 13:13:43 <mickey|fic> ~change 150 UKP to EUR
Jun 16 13:13:54 <Elrond> !google convert 150 UKP to EUR
Jun 16 13:13:55 <cdbot2> Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Newtek Products at Planet PC @ http://www.planetdv.net/Content/By_Manufacturer/Newtek/%20class=l | 996 brakes @ http://www.slybadger.com/cars/s2/brakedetail.htm%20class=l 
Jun 16 13:14:06 <Elrond> !google change 150 UKP to EUR
Jun 16 13:14:07 <cdbot2> Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | The Rookery Hotel, Farringdon, London, U @ http://www.hotelgenie.com/london/rookery.shtml%20class=l | Radio Heritage Foundation - From David's @ http://www.radioheritage.net/FDD.asp%20class=l 
Jun 16 13:14:09 <SpeedEvil> Ah - yes, but it asks for you to recite the next line in any of the Monty Python canon.
Jun 16 13:14:21 <SpeedEvil> Because every geek knows them all! :)
Jun 16 13:14:34 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - *giggle* :-)
Jun 16 13:14:57 <stefan_schmidt> ~change 150 GBP to EUR
Jun 16 13:15:08 <Sufflope_> that's around 225€
Jun 16 13:15:12 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Jun 16 13:15:15 <mickey|fic> thanks
Jun 16 13:15:27 <stefan_schmidt> bots have weekend
Jun 16 13:15:41 * Elrond gets reminded of this movie, where they break into this high security building for this little black box decryption device. ;o)
Jun 16 13:15:45 <mickey|fic> so basically 37.5 per night
Jun 16 13:15:47 <mickey|fic> per person
Jun 16 13:15:49 <mickey|fic> that's ok imho
Jun 16 13:20:45 <Elrond> Where are you guys going?
Jun 16 13:21:01 <schurig> mickey|fic: moin!  Working?  Or have you seen something of the town already?
Jun 16 13:21:05 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: guadec
Jun 16 13:21:18 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jun 16 13:21:51 <schurig> mickey|fic: I'm just running MokoMakefile :-)
Jun 16 13:23:37 <CoreDump|home> !google 150 GPB EUR
Jun 16 13:23:37 <cdbot2> Did you mean: 150 GBP EUR ?  | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Second hand shop @ http://www.norlas.com/BuyersGuideUsed.asp%20class=l 
Jun 16 13:23:42 <CoreDump|home> !google 150 GPB in EUR
Jun 16 13:23:43 <cdbot2> Did you mean: 150 GBP in EUR ?  | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Second hand shop @ http://www.norlas.com/BuyersGuideUsed.asp%20class=l 
Jun 16 13:24:11 <stefan_schmidt> !google 150GBP -> EUR
Jun 16 13:24:12 <cdbot2> 150 British pounds = 222.131209 Euros
Jun 16 13:24:15 <stefan_schmidt> ah :)
Jun 16 13:24:22 <madwoota> "in"
Jun 16 13:24:38 <CoreDump|home> heh
Jun 16 13:25:10 <Elrond> !googl convert 350 USD to EUR
Jun 16 13:25:16 <Elrond> !google convert 350 USD to EUR
Jun 16 13:25:17 <cdbot2> 350 U.S. dollars = 263.019463 Euros
Jun 16 13:25:46 <mickey|fic> schurig: of course, working :) Sean and me have been relaxing today though. Sitting in a lounge for some hours, shooting pool :)
Jun 16 13:26:10 <schurig> mickey|fic: playing pool would be work for me :-)
Jun 16 13:26:21 * schurig doesn't get used to ball playing games
Jun 16 13:26:38 <loufoque> pool isn't really a ball playing game
Jun 16 13:26:40 <schurig> mickey|fic: if "pool" is "Billiard", that is
Jun 16 13:26:41 <madwoota> !g 350 usd in aud
Jun 16 13:26:42 <cdbot2> 350 U.S. dollars = 417.860554 Australian dollars
Jun 16 13:26:44 <empty_mind> mickey|fic, 
Jun 16 13:27:10 <Elrond> schurig - Billiard would be horror to me ;-)
Jun 16 13:27:12 <empty_mind> mickey|fic, is the requirement for gtk devel still open ?
Jun 16 13:27:35 <loufoque> billiard is funny when you're good at it
Jun 16 13:28:26 <balrog-kun> or when your opponent plays as poorly as you :)
Jun 16 13:28:33 <Sup3rkiddo> !g 350 usd in inr
Jun 16 13:28:34 <cdbot2> 350 U.S. dollars = 14 293.2985 Indian rupees
Jun 16 13:28:39 <Sup3rkiddo> kewl
Jun 16 13:28:46 <mickey|fic> empty_mind: can't say offhand. please ask me in one week, we need to plan our software roadmap next week and this of course influences the open positions
Jun 16 13:29:36 <loufoque> !g 350 usd in eur
Jun 16 13:29:37 <cdbot2> 350 U.S. dollars = 263.019463 Euros
Jun 16 13:29:42 <loufoque> wow
Jun 16 13:29:48 <loufoque> dollar is very low these days
Jun 16 13:31:43 <Elrond> !g 263.019463 * 1.19
Jun 16 13:31:44 <cdbot2> 263.019463 * 1.19 = 312.993161
Jun 16 13:31:57 * schurig would have seen Qt4.x as a basis, but old habits die hard. At least is the gcc compiler way faster than g++ compiler
Jun 16 13:32:34 <schurig> Elrond: ah, living in germany as well and calculating import VAT
Jun 16 13:32:49 <zecke> schurig: compiler or frontend?
Jun 16 13:32:50 <madwoota> 19% vat ?
Jun 16 13:33:02 <schurig> Einfuhrumsatzsteuer
Jun 16 13:33:21 <Elrond> schurig - Right.  There's some hope of a european reseller, which might make things cheaper... possibly.
Jun 16 13:34:11 <schurig> zecke: with precompiled headers g++ is quite usable, but I still have the feeling that gcc is faster than g++. Without precompiled headers, gcc is way faster than g++.
Jun 16 13:34:39 <schurig> zecke: faster while compiling, e.g. # of source code lines per second, not how fast the result is
Jun 16 13:35:20 <mickey|fic> ya know... between you and me (and 250 others)... my attitude towards C hasn't changed... i just view it as a necessity to use it when writing a versatile framework. 
Jun 16 13:35:32 <schurig> Elrond: you think?  The reseller want's to earn money as well. Also, he needs to pay for RoHS things, deal with warranties, things like that
Jun 16 13:35:40 <mickey|fic> as soon as possible, I want to go C++ and Python
Jun 16 13:35:42 <balrog-kun> it depends on the code, there are constructions in C++ that take n^2 time to compile (or even validate) and there's no way around it
Jun 16 13:35:43 <mickey|fic> (personally)
Jun 16 13:35:46 <balrog-kun> n being the number of lines
Jun 16 13:36:26 <schurig> mickey|fic: I personally like this approach as well (Python + C++)
Jun 16 13:36:52 <schurig> mickey|fic: or Boo and C++. Unfortunately, there are no no Boo bindings to Qt ...
Jun 16 13:36:52 <mickey|fic> nod we'll get there
Jun 16 13:37:04 <mickey|fic> lately i find D quite interesting as well
Jun 16 13:37:15 * schurig too
Jun 16 13:37:38 * madwoota prefers lolcode
Jun 16 13:38:24 <balrog-kun> g++ 3.x was quite easy to trick into using up all available memroy or "almost inifinite" time, even for a program below < 100 lines of code
Jun 16 13:38:33 <schurig> mickey|fic: "D" has just a weird name. You can't really use Google to search for anything with "D" in it
Jun 16 13:38:59 <schurig> mickey|fic: try "Qt D Bindings", and you get results about D-Bus
Jun 16 13:39:15 <mickey|fic> hehe
Jun 16 13:39:15 <Elrond> *G*
Jun 16 13:39:26 <Elrond> Is D worth looking at?
Jun 16 13:39:38 <madwoota> "Results 1 - 10 of about 2,730,000,000 for D"
Jun 16 13:40:08 <schurig> Elrond: "Boo" is "a better Python, with static types and lots of goodies", but for the mono environment. "D" is "C/C++ made better", compiled to machine language
Jun 16 13:40:56 <schurig> oh, not "mono env", bit ".NET or mono env"
Jun 16 13:40:58 <Elrond> schurig - Hmm.
Jun 16 13:41:07 <buz> i doubt reseller can make it cheaper, can't get around VAT either
Jun 16 13:41:24 <SpeedEvil> Well - you can.
Jun 16 13:41:32 <SpeedEvil> But they tend to come and kick your doors in.
Jun 16 13:41:41 <mjr> mickey, me too on the c and python bit, not so much c++ tho ;)
Jun 16 13:42:02 <SpeedEvil> However. Remailer from europe can save significantly on the shipping.
Jun 16 13:42:29 <schurig> buz: yes. And as soon as you commercially import electronic device, you have to report (and pay for it) to some institution that controls the waste disposal of electronic devices. The benefit for the customer is that they can bring electronic devices for free to the waste disposal points ... but the manufacturer or importeur has to pay for that.
Jun 16 13:42:47 <buz> oh yes
Jun 16 13:42:49 <schurig> buz: also, there is the warranty that you must fulfil by law
Jun 16 13:42:52 <buz> but for mobile phones fee is quite slim i guess
Jun 16 13:43:16 <buz> in switzerland at least, fee is calculated by weight and size, irrc
Jun 16 13:43:18 <schurig> buz: then there have been judge verdicts that a device must have a german handbook, not sure if this still applies
Jun 16 13:43:36 <schurig> and you need people (secretary, bookkeeper, warehouse workers) whatever
Jun 16 13:43:37 <buz> weeeeeelll, dont add one ;)
Jun 16 13:43:39 <schurig> all this adds up
Jun 16 13:44:10 <buz> are motherboards sold with german manuals in germany?
Jun 16 13:44:15 <buz> they sure as hell arent here
Jun 16 13:44:17 <schurig> SpeedEvil: I'm not sure if shipping is still that expensive (but actually I don't have a clue)
Jun 16 13:44:38 <buz> schurig: mostly depends on the speed and weight
Jun 16 13:44:56 <schurig> buz: no, motherboards come with no or english manuals, but maybe because they are not complete devices
Jun 16 13:45:10 <buz> 2 day switzerland - us for 2kg cost me 65E last week
Jun 16 13:45:17 <guaqua> can you say a neo is a complete device?
Jun 16 13:45:17 <buz> would have been much lower if it was 10day
Jun 16 13:45:24 <schurig> buz: but then again, I'm not sure if this ruling that I heard years (>5 years!) go still applies
Jun 16 13:45:26 <guaqua> it lacks even the most basic software for a mobile phone after all
Jun 16 13:45:47 <buz> dont flash the software
Jun 16 13:45:54 <buz> it's not a complete device then ;)
Jun 16 13:45:59 <schurig> buz: LOL
Jun 16 13:46:44 <schurig> buz: hey, even a Siemens Fujitsu computer with Vista preinstalled lacks the most basic software
Jun 16 13:47:06 <buz> every windows machine lacks basic software
Jun 16 13:47:25 <guaqua> computer vs mobile phone
Jun 16 13:47:29 <madwoota> microsoft got told off for including stuff with windows
Jun 16 13:47:44 <mickey|fic> the Neo1973 has a terminal and ssh. What more do you need??
Jun 16 13:47:45 <buz> heck it doesnt even have apt
Jun 16 13:48:03 <guaqua> it will not be such a big difference in the future between those too, but at the moment i wouldn't consider a neo a complete mobile phone
Jun 16 13:48:49 <Elrond> Hmm, if it only comes with u-boot... ;-)
Jun 16 13:49:11 <SpeedEvil> schurig: Not inordinately though, but it may save some, and especially may make delivery more rapid.
Jun 16 13:49:16 <guaqua> off course, you could go print everything there is on the wiki, but ;)
Jun 16 13:49:20 <Elrond> You don't have to pay taxes for uncomplete devices?
Jun 16 13:49:42 <schurig> SpeedEvil: Yes, for customers it would be better, e.g. when the device is broken, thinks like that.
Jun 16 13:49:48 <guaqua> Elrond: it's about manuals
Jun 16 13:50:05 <SpeedEvil> Shipping for users to send them to HK tends to be expensive.
Jun 16 13:50:11 <Elrond> guaqua - Ahh. Is there any obligation to send manuals?
Jun 16 13:50:19 <guaqua> Elrond: in some countries yes
Jun 16 13:50:26 <Elrond> Oh well.
Jun 16 13:50:28 <schurig> SpeedEvil: but someone said that it would make things cheaper, and I'm not really buying into that. Heck, even software from US vendors is more costly in DE than it is in US
Jun 16 13:50:50 <buz> schurig: partly because DE has 19% vat
Jun 16 13:50:58 <buz> the us has ~8% IF you cant get around it
Jun 16 13:50:59 <SpeedEvil> It could make them cheaper - mildy, it depends how it's done.
Jun 16 13:51:37 <schurig> buz: but when you import, you have to pay the VAT anyway ... except if customs make an error or if the sender writes "GIFT" on the parcel
Jun 16 13:51:56 <buz> if i download software, customs doesnt even know ;)
Jun 16 13:51:59 <schurig> buz: the names are different, e.g. "Mehrwertsteuer" vs. "Einfuhrumsatzsteuer", but they end up being the same amount
Jun 16 13:52:08 <buz> that's weird
Jun 16 13:52:10 <SpeedEvil> s/writes/commits fraud by writing/
Jun 16 13:52:13 <schurig> buz: right, not for downloaded software
Jun 16 13:52:35 <buz> maybe fic could sell devices for 100$ and force people to pay 250$ for software?
Jun 16 13:52:41 <buz> which is then delivered by download
Jun 16 13:53:05 <schurig> buz: however, german judges says that if you have a martialized software product (Original CD), then you can re-sell it, even if the manufacturer said otherwise. You cannot do this if you downloaded the software. Not sure if this is of importance to you (for me it is usally not)
Jun 16 13:53:47 <buz> not sure if you couldnt resell the licence either
Jun 16 13:53:48 <buz> way
Jun 16 13:54:02 <buz> first sale doctrine is quite comprehensive in most of europe
Jun 16 13:54:37 <buz> since i usually dont use commercial software, i dont care either way
Jun 16 13:55:02 <Elrond> Hmmm, if you import to another EU-country, then ship to .de... what taxes are relevant then?
Jun 16 13:55:44 <schurig> Elrond: the difference between the VATs. You can even get a reimbursment if you import from DK (because they have higher VAT than we)
Jun 16 13:56:50 <buz> http://www.wwi.unizh.ch/teaching/s07/lectures/Lecture_Notes/Lecture_Notes_Chapter9.pdf
Jun 16 13:56:55 <buz> this explains EU VAT rules
Jun 16 13:56:57 <buz> they are kinda special
Jun 16 13:57:25 <Elrond> I start to believe, I don't want to know. ;o)
Jun 16 13:57:36 <schurig> buz: interesting that a swiss university explains EU VAT rules :-)
Jun 16 13:57:46 <buz> the guy who wrote it is austrian ;)
Jun 16 13:58:04 * mwester 's first rule of money: never attempt to get between a government and your money -- they have more lawyers than you ever will.
Jun 16 13:58:31 <stefan_schmidt> mwester: Even better. They can just change the law. :)
Jun 16 13:59:32 <buz> besides, seeing that it was written by an economist rather than a lawyer one does stand a chance of understanding it ;)
Jun 16 14:02:49 <SpeedEvil> mwester: And the VAT/... bits tend to be especially nasty.
Jun 16 14:03:20 <buz> in theory vat is one of the simplest taxes
Jun 16 14:03:27 <buz> in practice however...
Jun 16 14:03:29 <SpeedEvil> For example, in the UK, they can take you to court, and present a little certificate saying you owe money to them, and there is no defence.
Jun 16 14:04:15 <stefan_schmidt> Sup3rkiddo: For your bitbake recipe problem. Make sure you update your openmoko svn copy before you do a new build. The metadata in the overlay needs to be updated.
Jun 16 14:04:29 <SpeedEvil> Also - due to carousel fraud 'Export outside EU, claim back VAT, import into EU, delay paying VAT, repeat' it can now be your problem if your trading partner doesn't pay VAT
Jun 16 14:04:55 <SpeedEvil> Carousel fraud is worth billions per year.
Jun 16 14:04:57 <Sup3rkiddo> stefan_schmidt, okie dokie
Jun 16 14:05:45 <buz> you can export it to me (not in the eu ;)
Jun 16 14:06:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Camera]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/es]]
Jun 16 14:09:15 <buz> i wonder if camera port in GTA02 could be exposed
Jun 16 14:09:56 <buz> if there is a way to attach the camera without soldering, it would be reasonably easy to design and sell case for it...
Jun 16 14:10:57 <SpeedEvil> Ihttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back - see the 'what FIC could do' bit
Jun 16 14:12:07 <buz> that doesnt really cover camera modules?
Jun 16 14:12:27 <Linux_Galore> mwester: not always true, here in Australia the tax dept took a billionair to court and ended up dropping the case because he could outspend their budget for the whole dept
Jun 16 14:12:49 <SpeedEvil> buz: no, not quite.
Jun 16 14:13:04 <SpeedEvil> I will note that unfortuantely connecotrs are rather expensive.
Jun 16 14:13:07 <Sup3rkiddo> counter
Jun 16 14:13:08 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 22:53:24 (2.954±3.0 days) (1487;230)
Jun 16 14:13:19 <buz> camera or qwerty is the only thing i'd really want on GTA02
Jun 16 14:14:23 <Linux_Galore> not a qwerty please they are great for midgets but anyone else they are totally a waste of time
Jun 16 14:15:21 <Linux_Galore> bigger display would be nice
Jun 16 14:15:26 <Linux_Galore> or higher res
Jun 16 14:15:33 <SpeedEvil> Ah yes.
Jun 16 14:15:39 <SpeedEvil> 1280*1024 2.8" display.
Jun 16 14:15:46 * SpeedEvil giggles.
Jun 16 14:16:05 <SpeedEvil> I don't see 640*480 being too small at under 5" or so.
Jun 16 14:16:11 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: the res on the iPhone is actually pretty high
Jun 16 14:16:21 <buz> Linux_Galore: half of neo, yes
Jun 16 14:16:23 <mickey|fic> how so? it's qvga
Jun 16 14:16:31 <buz> i think its HVGA actually
Jun 16 14:17:11 <mickey|fic> hmm 240x640 ?
Jun 16 14:17:15 <mickey|fic> errr
Jun 16 14:17:20 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r2274 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/s3c2410.c: Slightly speed up DMA operation (only used for audio).
Jun 16 14:17:27 <buz> 480x280 or so
Jun 16 14:17:32 <buz> not entirely hvga
Jun 16 14:18:43 <Linux_Galore> 320x480 160ppi 
Jun 16 14:18:54 <buz> well neo has twice that
Jun 16 14:19:11 <buz> 640x480 at 285 dpi
Jun 16 14:19:26 * buz longs for the Asus eee
Jun 16 14:23:23 <Linux_Galore> the lcd is actually smaller though the ipod is 3.5" were the NEO is 2.8"
Jun 16 14:23:35 <Linux_Galore> sorry iPhone*
Jun 16 14:24:16 <Elrond> 3.5"? Can one hold that reasonably in a small hand?
Jun 16 14:24:35 <buz> neo would likely fit a 3.5" widescreen
Jun 16 14:24:52 <buz> and seeing that neo is about the same size as myy p900, yes you can hold that in small hands
Jun 16 14:25:05 <Elrond> I played with a Magellan eXplorist XL. (3.5" display), this wasn't anymor the size for a handy.
Jun 16 14:25:23 <CoreDump|home> s/handy/mobile ;)
Jun 16 14:25:32 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - Oh, yes.
Jun 16 14:25:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2275 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
Jun 16 14:25:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: make parent_class object static. fixes #612
Jun 16 14:25:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: thanks Elrond!
Jun 16 14:25:54 <Linux_Galore> the Nokia E90 though is the one to watch though 800x352
Jun 16 14:26:29 <buz> yeah and probably like 1000E
Jun 16 14:26:45 <buz> and s60 which is radically uncool for a device like that
Jun 16 14:26:55 <Elrond> buz - Yes, the neo is okay to hold. Although my mum says it's too large. ;)
Jun 16 14:27:11 <buz> my mother complains about my p900 too
Jun 16 14:27:16 <buz> but not because of the sizer
Jun 16 14:27:19 <buz> more about the weight
Jun 16 14:27:43 <Elrond> Hmm, that wasn't a complain. But then she didn't try to carry it around. ;-)
Jun 16 14:27:59 <buz> neo is actually quite heavy
Jun 16 14:28:01 <Linux_Galore> I actually thought the openmoko was pretty small till I drew the dimensions on a bit of paper, its not small 
Jun 16 14:28:23 <buz> neo still easily fits normal sized pockets
Jun 16 14:28:26 <buz> thats all that really matters
Jun 16 14:29:10 <Linux_Galore> yeah, well the weight will be a bit heavy if you want a decent sized battery that lasts more then 1 day 
Jun 16 14:29:26 <buz> my p900 initially lasted more than a week
Jun 16 14:29:27 <Elrond> buz - Well, you don't really want it in there, next to your keys. ;-)
Jun 16 14:29:34 <buz> and thats 2003 technology
Jun 16 14:29:35 <Linux_Galore> one major flaw media phones have Im finding is the battery life
Jun 16 14:29:47 <buz> Elrond: the p900 survived that for 3,5 years
Jun 16 14:30:01 <buz> i fully expect neo to survive it for at least 1 year or ill be mighty pissed
Jun 16 14:30:04 <Linux_Galore> I can kill the battery charge in my Nokia N95 in a single day
Jun 16 14:30:30 <buz> the n95 isnt quite your average phone either
Jun 16 14:30:39 <Elrond> Linux_Galore - Right. Battery life is my major concern about the neo.
Jun 16 14:30:51 <buz> GTA02 will have 1700mah iirc
Jun 16 14:31:00 <Elrond> buz - Yep.
Jun 16 14:31:09 <buz> should make 3 days i guess
Jun 16 14:31:32 <Elrond> My current phone has 14 days. And it shows the clock (visible) all the time. ;-)
Jun 16 14:31:53 <SpeedEvil> I wish e-ink wasn't so annoying.
Jun 16 14:32:02 <SpeedEvil> Otherwise it'd be a nice match.
Jun 16 14:32:03 <Linux_Galore> its not the camera on the N95 that kills the battery either now the mp3 player so much but when you run media enabled web apps, that really kills the battery
Jun 16 14:32:29 <Linux_Galore> s/now/, nor/
Jun 16 14:32:30 <apt> Linux_Galore meant: its not the camera on the N95 that kills the battery either , nor the mp3 player so much but when you run media enabled web apps, that really kills the battery
Jun 16 14:32:40 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2276 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/Makefile.am: 
Jun 16 14:32:40 <CIA-24> openmoko: openmoko-messages: build and make distcheck related improvements.
Jun 16 14:32:40 <CIA-24> openmoko: closes #536
Jun 16 14:32:40 <CIA-24> openmoko: thanks Rodolphe Ortalo!
Jun 16 14:32:42 <buz> i dont particularly care for multiemedia web apps on a phone
Jun 16 14:33:25 <guaqua> i care for practical apps in a phone
Jun 16 14:33:47 <buz> exactly
Jun 16 14:34:02 <buz> multimedia on 2.8" doesnt sound very practical to me
Jun 16 14:34:02 <Linux_Galore> well I just want email and to make phone calls really and a decent contacts setup
Jun 16 14:34:38 <Linux_Galore> ssh stuff is nice though
Jun 16 14:34:41 <guaqua> i want e-mail, www and mp3 player
Jun 16 14:34:57 <buz> ssh without qwerty is unusable
Jun 16 14:35:06 <buz> tried that once on mine
Jun 16 14:35:07 <guaqua> and a mapping application if it's even possible
Jun 16 14:35:12 <guaqua> buz: true
Jun 16 14:35:17 <Linux_Galore> buz: actual its not, you use a bt keyboard
Jun 16 14:35:28 <guaqua> i've sometimes attached my irc screen on my nokia 66000
Jun 16 14:35:37 <guaqua> s/66000/6600
Jun 16 14:35:37 <buz> yeah like i carry a thing thats bigger than my phone
Jun 16 14:35:55 <buz> and needs another set of batteries
Jun 16 14:35:55 <Linux_Galore> buz: bt keyboard is actually pretty small
Jun 16 14:35:58 <guaqua> you could have it in your backpack if you need to check out soemthing
Jun 16 14:36:13 <zipola> I say: alternative input methods. Keyboard isn't the only way.
Jun 16 14:36:25 <buz> i want it to read my mind$
Jun 16 14:36:41 <Linux_Galore> buz: try doing a long assed script edit of a file on a server with a tinker toy pda keyboard
Jun 16 14:36:48 <buz> plus points if it can read girls' minds
Jun 16 14:36:56 <Tronic> Icecap (Irssi2) practically eliminates my need for SSH.
Jun 16 14:36:59 <mickey|fic> impossible :D
Jun 16 14:37:03 <buz> wtf would you do long assed script edits on a phone
Jun 16 14:37:28 <Tronic> I just wish that there were J2ME and GTK clients for it.
Jun 16 14:37:29 <buz> usually emergency ssh involves things like sudo reboot
Jun 16 14:37:35 <Linux_Galore> buz: yep, I just did one on my N95 over ssh on wifi to a server
Jun 16 14:37:36 <buz> or sudo killall offendingprocess
Jun 16 14:38:02 <buz> thankfully i'm no longer sysadmin
Jun 16 14:38:21 <buz> not of anything mission critical anywaa
Jun 16 14:38:35 <Linux_Galore> now I just need to find an irc client that works well on s60 
Jun 16 14:38:48 <buz> bitchx over ssh
Jun 16 14:40:07 <Linux_Galore> buz: irc over ssh sux
Jun 16 14:40:48 <guaqua> haven't found anything better than screen + irssi to date
Jun 16 14:41:26 <balrog-kun> screen + ssh + screen + irssi is working very well for me for the last couple of years
Jun 16 14:43:11 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. First device I've seen that is 'serious' that uses internal flash only. http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/126153/rb/0
Jun 16 14:43:30 <schurig> buz: even IF you could read a girl's mind, you wouldn't understand a clue from this disorganized pile of thoughts
Jun 16 14:43:50 <mickey|fic> heh
Jun 16 14:43:57 <SpeedEvil> Sony tiny foldy laptop
Jun 16 14:43:58 <Linux_Galore> the openmoko is bigger than the iphone physically, hmm wonder why the display is smaller though
Jun 16 14:44:20 <buz> schurig: now theres a point
Jun 16 14:44:42 <buz> SpeedEvil: Asus eee like i say ;)
Jun 16 14:44:51 <SpeedEvil> Linux_Galore: basically - to a large degree it's a price thing.
Jun 16 14:45:32 <SpeedEvil> Linux_Galore: If you are willing to spend a _lot_ more on development, you can spend more on - for example - models to work out exact optimal antenna placement
Jun 16 14:45:43 <Linux_Galore> actually in every dimensions its bigger  Openmoko v iPhone   120.7 x 62 x 18.5 mm, 115 x 61 x 11.6 mm
Jun 16 14:45:59 <Elrond> mickey|fic - Thanks for commiting.
Jun 16 14:46:20 <guaqua> i see no reason to compare neo with iphone
Jun 16 14:46:22 <SpeedEvil> That's only the outside dimensions though - which are misleading.
Jun 16 14:46:38 <guaqua> they are two different beasts
Jun 16 14:46:40 <buz> compare iphone to SE thingies
Jun 16 14:46:46 <buz> compare neo to well, nothing really
Jun 16 14:46:53 <guaqua> yeah
Jun 16 14:47:08 <buz> if it wasnt win mobile, htc s710 would be neat
Jun 16 14:47:15 <buz> keypad and slider for 350E
Jun 16 14:47:56 <SpeedEvil> Linux_Galore: for example - commit to enough volume, and you can have essentially everything made custom for you rather than building something in - which can save a fair bit of mass and volume.
Jun 16 14:48:57 <Linux_Galore> SpeedEvil: yeah I know, 4 million on the first order gets people thinking
Jun 16 14:49:35 <SpeedEvil> And vendors salivating and begging.
Jun 16 14:50:02 <Linux_Galore> 4 million units*
Jun 16 14:50:11 * SpeedEvil wonders if Ipwn is trademarked.
Jun 16 14:51:11 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - trademark it before they do. ;o)
Jun 16 14:52:09 <Linux_Galore> I must thank miip for showing me the putty app for symbian , hacking on my N95 while ssh'ing into a server in another state is pretty cool
Jun 16 14:53:48 <miip> :)
Jun 16 14:54:23 <Elrond> *g*
Jun 16 14:54:40 <Elrond> Sitting at my desktop and hacking on the phone is also cool. ;o)
Jun 16 14:57:45 <Linux_Galore> hackity hackity we go http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/images/kbtutorial0.jpg
Jun 16 14:58:53 <Linux_Galore> exactly the same setup I have
Jun 16 14:59:46 <Linux_Galore> accept right now I have putty showing the output of a tail sript
Jun 16 14:59:50 <Linux_Galore> script*
Jun 16 15:02:48 <mjr> hm, I really should hack something myself already. Like a 90 degree rotated sopwith
Jun 16 15:02:50 <Elrond> I have the opposite here: A model M in front of me, the phone at the other end of the desktop, I can't even see it. ;o)
Jun 16 15:03:17 <Elrond> mjr - What's a sopwith?
Jun 16 15:03:34 <Linux_Galore> an old ww1 fighter plane
Jun 16 15:04:20 <mjr> and an old dos game with a more recent sdl post
Jun 16 15:04:24 <mjr> port
Jun 16 15:04:43 <Elrond> Ahh. ;)
Jun 16 15:05:15 <Linux_Galore> has anyone done a tetris port for the NEO yet
Jun 16 15:05:31 <Elrond> Debian/stable has it for arm. ;-)
Jun 16 15:05:34 * SpeedEvil ponders Tetris-accelerometer
Jun 16 15:05:36 <Elrond> So it should run on the Neo. ;o)
Jun 16 15:06:18 <mjr> speaking of rotating, could moko's X server do that with any reasonable efficiency, because I currently work on the assumption that no
Jun 16 15:06:21 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2277 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/buttonactions.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: give some feedback during powerdown / restart
Jun 16 15:07:01 <mjr> of course the gpu may change things...
Jun 16 15:07:24 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - *lol* I'm imaging children chaking the Neo to get the pieces at the right places. ;o)
Jun 16 15:07:51 <Elrond> mjr - Do "xrandr -o right" and be scared. ;o)
Jun 16 15:08:01 <Linux_Galore> or play a tilt marbles game
Jun 16 15:08:01 <mjr> oh, and is there modeswitching code for fullscreen qvga yet?
Jun 16 15:09:53 <mjr> I really should install a moko environment for myself, have been lazy for lack of hw
Jun 16 15:09:54 <Linux_Galore> goto love users, just created a new account with a new name sent an email a few hours ago telling them not to use the old account and they have just tried to use the old account and I can see an email heading my way......sigh
Jun 16 15:10:29 <Elrond> Cooolio... I tried "xrandr -o right" on my desktop. I love Xorg. My Xserver got a SEGV. ;o)
Jun 16 15:11:01 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2278 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-banner.c: libmokoui/moko-banner: tweak look
Jun 16 15:11:25 <Linux_Galore> mickey is busy 
Jun 16 15:11:29 <Elrond> mickey is hacking away. :-)
Jun 16 15:11:44 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2279 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-ui.h): libmokoui/moko-ui: add convenience function for showing a MokoBanner
Jun 16 15:12:45 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2280 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-scrolled-pane.c moko-scrolled-pane.h): 
Jun 16 15:12:45 <CIA-24> openmoko: libmokoui/moko-scrolled-pane.*: add function for tweaking position of
Jun 16 15:12:45 <CIA-24> openmoko: fullscreen toggle button. NOTE: don't rely on that API yet, it may
Jun 16 15:12:45 <CIA-24> openmoko: vanish again...
Jun 16 15:13:07 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2281 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c: openmoko-stylus-demo: utilize some of the new functions in libmokoui
Jun 16 15:13:42 <Linux_Galore> Elrond: like the comits live journal in irc
Jun 16 15:15:40 <Linux_Galore> anyway Im off to bed its 1am here, Ive but $350 US peso's to the side for the release 
Jun 16 15:17:21 <SpeedEvil> Wave.
Jun 16 15:18:00 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: Gently.
Jun 16 15:19:48 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Hmmm?
Jun 16 15:20:51 <SpeedEvil> Tetris.
Jun 16 15:20:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2282 10/trunk/oe/packages/libxosd/ (files/use-sane-default-font.patch libxosd_svn.bb): 
Jun 16 15:20:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: oe/libxosd: add patch making libxosd using 'fixed' as default font --
Jun 16 15:20:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: this font is guaranteed to be always present on the Xserver
Jun 16 15:20:54 <CIA-24> openmoko: (remember, this is core font, not freetype or xft)
Jun 16 15:21:01 <SpeedEvil> That's why it's got a lanyard-hole anyway.
Jun 16 15:23:28 * SpeedEvil contemplates a 'shot-putt' app.
Jun 16 15:24:42 <Elrond> shot-putt?
Jun 16 15:27:05 <SpeedEvil> Secure lanyard, wind up, and throw as hard as you can. (it being caught on the lanyard). Tells you how far it would have flown.
Jun 16 15:27:30 <mjr> hmm. Lanyard. Accelerometer. Spin-your-moko contests.
Jun 16 15:28:06 <mjr> yeah
Jun 16 15:28:18 <SpeedEvil> Could also do virtual powerball.
Jun 16 15:29:59 <xkr47> lool
Jun 16 15:30:24 <xkr47> it could have a built in powerball to generate electricity to charge the thing :)
Jun 16 15:35:08 <Elrond> hehe
Jun 16 15:35:34 <Elrond> I already see (adult) childs doing nasty thingy to their neo. ;o)
Jun 16 15:35:48 <xkr47> you have a mirror ?-)
Jun 16 15:36:22 <Elrond> xkr47 - I mean more like "Hey, look, I can create 8g using my hands" ;o)
Jun 16 15:37:23 <xkr47> make sure you don't blackout or redout :)
Jun 16 15:43:25 <Elrond> Fun. I have a query for the gps-chip, that timeouts on the chip it seems. ;-)
Jun 16 15:43:39 <Elrond> At least I don't get a response within one second. ;-)
Jun 16 15:46:06 <Elrond> Only the header as answer, within 20secs of waiting... fun.
Jun 16 15:46:59 <ph|ber> y0.. is the FIC phone released yet?
Jun 16 15:47:00 <aloril> ph|ber: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 16 15:48:05 <SpeedEvil> No
Jun 16 15:48:37 <ph|ber> yea just read the wiki.. anyone know about the e28 phones?
Jun 16 15:54:37 <SpeedEvil> When the exhaust gets out of the generator, it's too cool to burn in the air - CO will burn.
Jun 16 15:54:39 <SpeedEvil> oosp
Jun 16 15:59:52 <LuitvD> ph|ber: not really. e28 doesn't communicate...
Jun 16 16:00:03 <ph|ber> ive noticed.. 
Jun 16 16:00:08 <ph|ber> i want to buy one.
Jun 16 16:00:13 <LuitvD> which one?
Jun 16 16:00:15 <ph|ber> cant get no one to contact me or answer.
Jun 16 16:00:18 <ph|ber> the hawk
Jun 16 16:00:18 <LuitvD> let me guess, e2881?
Jun 16 16:00:21 <LuitvD> hmm
Jun 16 16:00:25 <ph|ber> no.. acually
Jun 16 16:00:29 <ph|ber> i would like the 2882
Jun 16 16:00:34 <LuitvD> me too :P
Jun 16 16:00:46 <LuitvD> HSDPA/WiMAX :)
Jun 16 16:00:56 <ph|ber> :>
Jun 16 16:01:07 <ph|ber> im looking for a new phone.. and was looking at the iphone.
Jun 16 16:01:09 <ph|ber> but.......
Jun 16 16:01:10 <LuitvD> big, BIG smile
Jun 16 16:01:23 <schurig> mjr: x-server-i810 can rotate the screen, and it does it by software (!)
Jun 16 16:01:46 <thresh> this is done via xrandr
Jun 16 16:01:53 <LuitvD> iPhone's lock-in sucks
Jun 16 16:01:54 <ph|ber> you wouldnt happen to have had a "hands on" with the iphone would ya?
Jun 16 16:02:17 <ph|ber> probally the only thing that would make me NOT get it.. it is not 3G
Jun 16 16:02:20 <ph|ber> just edge
Jun 16 16:02:27 <ph|ber> and im sure.. that v2.0 will be
Jun 16 16:02:28 <ph|ber> heh
Jun 16 16:02:31 <ph|ber> and soon after
Jun 16 16:02:34 <ph|ber> more than likely.
Jun 16 16:03:55 <ph|ber> so you would get an iphone?
Jun 16 16:04:04 <Rince> no
Jun 16 16:04:15 <ph|ber> anyone used the imcosys's?
Jun 16 16:05:30 <alphaone> ph|ber: Imcosys is vaporware atm
Jun 16 16:05:39 <alphaone> Or at least so it seems
Jun 16 16:05:57 <ph|ber> really??
Jun 16 16:06:08 <ph|ber> someone emailed me and said it was available.
Jun 16 16:06:41 <alphaone> ph|ber: If that's the case I'd be interested in talking to him
Jun 16 16:06:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[Calculator]]
Jun 16 16:07:12 <ph|ber> well, i asked a few questions, and it does not do video
Jun 16 16:07:15 <alphaone> imcosys told me they's distribute the GPL'd stuff on a CD when you buy the phone
Jun 16 16:07:37 <ph|ber> http://www.slashphone.com/77/7174.html
Jun 16 16:07:41 <ph|ber> i like that pic of the fic
Jun 16 16:08:05 <alphaone> ph|ber: It's not a pic, though
Jun 16 16:08:14 <ph|ber> ?
Jun 16 16:08:14 <alphaone> It's photoshopped
Jun 16 16:08:17 <ph|ber> ahh
Jun 16 16:08:26 <alphaone> or rendered
Jun 16 16:09:01 <ph|ber> so that leaves the e28s.. anyone have one? or know where to get em?
Jun 16 16:09:19 <ph|ber> or better yet.. what linux based phones are use? and are liked.
Jun 16 16:10:14 <alphaone> linux based or free?
Jun 16 16:10:22 <ph|ber> ??
Jun 16 16:10:54 <ph|ber> this is what i would like.. linux based, mp3, video, wifi, bluetooth, and possible 3g but edge will do.
Jun 16 16:11:02 <ph|ber> gsm
Jun 16 16:11:05 <ph|ber> for at&t
Jun 16 16:11:12 <ph|ber> \/cingular
Jun 16 16:12:58 <alphaone> ph|ber: That's what I'm waiting for, too :-)
Jun 16 16:13:11 <ph|ber> :>
Jun 16 16:13:25 <ph|ber> although i would like video.. it is not a must have.. i have a video ipod
Jun 16 16:13:26 <alphaone> ph|ber: Do you want linux based for hacking or why?
Jun 16 16:13:37 <ph|ber> linux is all i use.. im a system admin.
Jun 16 16:13:42 <ph|ber> been using slackware since 1995
Jun 16 16:14:05 <alphaone> You could look at some of the motorola phones
Jun 16 16:14:12 <ph|ber> i saw the rokr
Jun 16 16:14:29 <alphaone> The A910 even has wifi. But not sure if it's available in US
Jun 16 16:15:54 <ph|ber> would rather have a touch screen
Jun 16 16:16:25 <ph|ber> wonder if the Q will run linux
Jun 16 16:17:22 <alphaone> The HTC don't come with linux, but some of the devices are already supported
Jun 16 16:17:29 <ph|ber> damn.. looks like it pushing toward the iphone
Jun 16 16:17:45 <alphaone> ?
Jun 16 16:17:47 <ph|ber> had one of the htc's didnt like it so much
Jun 16 16:24:41 <ph|ber> does the rokr have an SDK?
Jun 16 16:25:02 <zipola> I doubt.
Jun 16 16:25:35 <ph|ber> wonder how "customizeable" it is
Jun 16 16:26:17 <ph|ber> what OS is on the Sony Ericsson P1i
Jun 16 16:26:33 <ph|ber> oh the symbian
Jun 16 16:27:54 <ph|ber> hrm. it looks pretty sweet
Jun 16 16:42:16 <ph|ber> hrm. what about the nokia n80
Jun 16 16:44:35 <thomasg_gpm> symbian9 series60 3rd edition
Jun 16 16:44:57 <ph|ber> dont think i have had a phone with symbian.. how is it?
Jun 16 16:45:22 <thomasg_gpm> the n80 or symbian?
Jun 16 16:45:28 <ph|ber> symbian
Jun 16 16:46:01 <thomasg_gpm> well, symbian is only the platform, the gui and the other stuff depends on the software above. I don't think that symbian is bad - imho its a good os for smartphones
Jun 16 16:48:35 <ph|ber> i would also liek a gps on it.
Jun 16 16:48:36 <ph|ber> :>
Jun 16 16:49:33 <thomasg_gpm> nokia also has phones with gps
Jun 16 16:49:48 <thomasg_gpm> e.g. the N95, the E90, and maybe others
Jun 16 16:50:01 <thomasg_gpm> there are also series40 (non-symbian) devices with gps inside
Jun 16 16:51:19 <ph|ber> hrm. now the e90 looks promising
Jun 16 16:51:44 <rsavoye_> is it possible to order hardware for developers yet ?
Jun 16 16:52:00 <mjr> no, not yet
Jun 16 16:52:13 <rsavoye_> bummer. I wanted to port Gnash to it.
Jun 16 16:52:36 <mjr> well, you can start now
Jun 16 16:52:44 <rsavoye_> we alresdy support open embedded
Jun 16 16:52:49 * balrog-kun was just recently looking for someone to kill for how Gnash works :P
Jun 16 16:53:03 <mjr> rsavoye_, great
Jun 16 16:53:05 <rsavoye_> too bad, go kil somebody at Adobe instead.
Jun 16 16:53:25 <ph|ber> is the e90 out yet?
Jun 16 16:53:30 <rsavoye_> We're now handling YouTube at over 10fps on similar devices...
Jun 16 16:53:34 <roh> rsavoye_ you can try getting it to work on the emulator (qemu). then it will work on real hardware also
Jun 16 16:53:54 <rsavoye_> roh: ah, a URL for a QEMU image ? That'll be fine.
Jun 16 16:54:17 <balrog-kun> i'm not sure if the bug is in Gnash or in firefox, but it DOSes my computer every couple of days when a page contains an .swf
Jun 16 16:54:27 <roh> rsavoye_ we have a patched qemu which emulates the real hardware. but afaik there are no binary builds of it
Jun 16 16:54:39 <ph|ber> thomasg_gpm: have you seen the e90???
Jun 16 16:54:47 <rsavoye_> balrog-kun: which distro are you runing ? Which version of Gnash ? We just release 0.8.0
Jun 16 16:55:11 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: You're aware of flashblock?
Jun 16 16:55:18 <thomasg_gpm> ph|ber, no, I haven't, but some magazines already tested it
Jun 16 16:55:29 <balrog-kun> rsavoye_: i'm running Gentoo, the version is...
Jun 16 16:55:40 <rsavoye_> balrog-kun: Gentoo is your problem then, sorry.
Jun 16 16:55:40 <ph|ber> theres a couple on ebay.
Jun 16 16:55:48 <ph|ber> http://my-symbian.com/s60v3/review_e90.php
Jun 16 16:55:57 <balrog-kun> rsavoye_: oh, 0.7.2, i will upgrade in a moment
Jun 16 16:56:09 <rsavoye_> balrog-kun: that's ancient...
Jun 16 16:56:13 <thomasg_gpm> well, for me it is definately too big. I plan to buy a e61i
Jun 16 16:56:23 <balrog-kun> whenever i hear it start swapping aggressively, if i don't do "killall gnash" in 20 seconds, they PC becomes unresponsive so badly that it can't be killed anymore, and neither firefox nor gnash get killed by the OOM killer, weird
Jun 16 16:56:30 <balrog-kun> SpeedEvil: no, what's that?
Jun 16 16:56:39 <ph|ber> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270132530664
Jun 16 16:56:39 <rsavoye_> balrog-kun: that's a 7 month old version of Gnash...
Jun 16 16:56:56 <rsavoye_> 0.8.0 is *much* better than 0.7.2.
Jun 16 16:57:02 <roh> balrog-kun is the noise qemu outputs on start normal or is there still a sound-emu problem?
Jun 16 16:57:17 <balrog-kun> rsavoye_: just noticed there's even a package for building snapshots out of cvs, gonna upgrade now
Jun 16 16:57:38 * Sup3rkiddo was wearing his headset when the "noise" happened
Jun 16 16:57:40 <rsavoye_> you don't want CVS from this week. :-)
Jun 16 16:57:41 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: it puts up a little 'play' icon in the middle of any flash, and doesn't load it till you click on it. It's an extension for FF
Jun 16 16:57:46 <balrog-kun> roh: it's a bug in the DMA, i will be debugging it today
Jun 16 16:58:02 <balrog-kun> roh: the noise the real neo makes on startup is slightly different
Jun 16 16:58:02 <roh> balrog-kun super.. 
Jun 16 16:58:07 <balrog-kun> although not much nicer to ears
Jun 16 16:58:09 <roh> *g*
Jun 16 16:58:26 <rsavoye_> SpeedEvil: we also added an option to Gnash that can turn off every flash movie, and let you select the ones you want.
Jun 16 16:58:33 <balrog-kun> SpeedEvil: cool, thanks for the pointer
Jun 16 16:58:42 * balrog-kun hates debugging DMA operation
Jun 16 16:59:29 <SpeedEvil> Nice ras:
Jun 16 17:03:43 <rsavoye_> balrog-kun: if you have anymore problems with Gnash, try #gnash.
Jun 16 17:06:20 <balrog-kun> when i first installed gnash i actually went to this channel, and whatever issues i had the answer was something like "this isn't supposed to work and currently nobody is working on implemeting this, maybe in sometime in the future"
Jun 16 17:08:05 <balrog-kun> btu that must have changed since youtube support was also not supposed to work and nobody was working on implementing it and now i read that it's already almost completely working
Jun 16 17:17:52 <thomasg_gpm> ph|ber, the ebay auction is a fake. you wouldn't ever see the device, nor your money
Jun 16 17:18:56 <ph|ber> how do you know it is fake
Jun 16 17:20:52 <guaqua> there are about ~50 out there
Jun 16 18:06:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
Jun 16 18:07:47 <pH5> ooh, Hammerhead_protocol changes?
Jun 16 18:08:31 <SpeedEvil> A) typos B) GPL driver announce C) Underpants
Jun 16 18:10:23 <ph|ber> thomasg_gpm: is the nokia 9500 comunicator the same as the e90??
Jun 16 18:12:40 <Elrond> WEEEE!  I have a ms clock on the GPS ;-)
Jun 16 18:16:12 <pH5> Elrond: where?
Jun 16 18:16:24 <SpeedEvil> Awesome.
Jun 16 18:17:03 <stefan_schmidt> Perhaps we should delay GTA01 a bit to get a free GPS driver ready from the start? ;)
Jun 16 18:17:47 <SpeedEvil> That'll probably be the time reading from the local clock
Jun 16 18:18:08 <pH5> stefan_schmidt: heh, that would probably be a not-so-popular decision :D
Jun 16 18:18:54 <stefan_schmidt> pH5: So the only solution I see is that your guys work faster then. (Just kidding)
Jun 16 18:19:01 <pH5> Elrond: go go go!
Jun 16 18:19:09 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - *lol* ! :-)
Jun 16 18:19:46 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yeah, it must be some local clock... and one must start it. I'm now removing init-code to see, what starts it. ;o)
Jun 16 18:20:11 <Elrond> I just verified, that it really is a ms clock. Using variable delay loops on the cpu. ;-)
Jun 16 18:20:34 <Rince> good evening ;)
Jun 16 18:20:41 <Elrond> Hi Rince :-)
Jun 16 18:23:26 <Elrond> hehe... I mistuned it, it seems. ;o)
Jun 16 18:26:48 <SpeedEvil> Look on the couple of page sheet - it's got a reference to VCXO - this is a voltage controlled oscillator. It's an accurate crystal, trimmable to exact freq, with a voltage.
Jun 16 18:27:14 <SpeedEvil> This is the local clock that the satellites are comapred against.
Jun 16 18:28:14 <Elrond> Ahhh.
Jun 16 18:28:32 <Elrond> Well, I disabled a bit of init sequence... and now it runs double speed.
Jun 16 18:28:46 <SpeedEvil> It's not tunable that far.
Jun 16 18:28:53 <SpeedEvil> It'll be a few dozen PPM
Jun 16 18:29:16 <SpeedEvil> But there may be a PLL or a divider in there somewhere on the chipside
Jun 16 18:30:29 <Elrond> Well, I see a millisecond clock. So that's far away from the sat stuff, I'd say.
Jun 16 18:30:45 <SpeedEvil> It's the basics though.
Jun 16 18:32:24 <SpeedEvil> All the sat stuff will have timings with regards to that.
Jun 16 18:33:08 <Elrond> Yeah.
Jun 16 18:35:21 <Elrond> SEND L 03 CH 0 FL 4 CMD 04: 92 24 11 02 7b 39 8e 23 00 00 00 00 7b 39 8e 23
Jun 16 18:35:28 <Elrond> SEND L 02 CH 0 FL 0 CMD 08: 40 20 00 00 40 20 00 00 44 20 00 00
Jun 16 18:35:35 <Elrond> Those two are needed to start the clock. ;o)
Jun 16 18:36:43 <Elrond> These are the longest in the init part...
Jun 16 18:39:24 <koen> has someone already started an SCM repo for the hammerhead stuff?
Jun 16 18:41:57 <Elrond> koen - I don't know.  If projects.openmoko.org's SVN would wokr, that could be used... otherwise *looking for h r w .... ;o))* I'd prefer git. ;o)
Jun 16 18:42:16 <koen> sf.net?
Jun 16 18:42:21 <koen> savannah?
Jun 16 18:42:23 <koen> gna?
Jun 16 18:42:26 <koen> berlios?
Jun 16 18:42:30 <koen> linuxtogo?
Jun 16 18:43:27 <koen> djeez, gnash sucks donkey balls when it comes to autotools and pkgconfig usage
Jun 16 18:44:23 <thomasg_gpm> ph|ber, no, the 9500 is a old device with only gsm, no edge, no umts, no hsdpa, only wifi 802.11b and a poor display
Jun 16 18:45:04 <thomasg_gpm> the e90 is a new device with edge, umts, wifi 802.11g, gps, ...
Jun 16 18:45:18 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: depending on how integrated the VCO is - it should be that if you twiddle one or two of those bytes, then it will slow or speed up the clock by 100ppm or so.
Jun 16 18:46:42 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yeah, I thought something like that... I still wonder, if I could break the chip somehow.
Jun 16 18:47:10 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Try it. :)
Jun 16 18:47:35 <SpeedEvil> IMO - breaking the chip is basically extremely unlikely.
Jun 16 18:48:24 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Well, I remember all those stories about say the floppy drive of the C64 (or whatever it was), which could be broken by sending a nice command to it. ;-)
Jun 16 18:48:44 <Elrond> ... or CPUs, which could be burnt or so. ;-)
Jun 16 18:49:05 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Well, if I break it, I don't have a toy anymore. ;o)
Jun 16 18:49:56 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: heh
Jun 16 18:50:27 * koen nominates gnash for the 'million monkeys with typewriters' award
Jun 16 18:50:54 <guaqua> not much i can add to that, koen :)
Jun 16 18:51:25 <koen> it gets autoconf wrong, pkgconfig wrong, includes wrong and possible more
Jun 16 18:51:46 <koen> I say 'possibly' because getting it to start compiling seems impossible
Jun 16 18:52:07 <high-rez> counter
Jun 16 18:52:07 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 20:33:54 (2.857±2.9 days) (1488;230)
Jun 16 18:52:14 <Elrond> koen - repos: As long, as it's not sf, I'm happy with anything.
Jun 16 18:52:31 <guaqua> koen: so it's an immediate positive for openembedded? :D
Jun 16 18:53:18 <koen> guaqua: I've wasted the last 2 hours getting it past configure
Jun 16 18:53:44 <koen> you may only specify the include dirs, because it breaks if you specify the lib dirs as well
Jun 16 18:53:45 * balrog-kun just finished the gnash upgrade, it was tough because it pulled in bost upgrade and a couple of other things but otherwise went okay
Jun 16 18:53:54 <balrog-kun> s/bost/boost/
Jun 16 18:54:04 <koen> balrog-kun: --disable-cygnal and boost is gone
Jun 16 18:54:17 <balrog-kun> oh, that's good to know
Jun 16 18:54:36 <koen> (since it can't properly detect boost during cross-compiling)
Jun 16 18:55:15 <guaqua> so you need to patch the hell out of it ;)
Jun 16 18:55:18 <koen> hmmm
Jun 16 18:55:22 <koen> gnash lies
Jun 16 18:55:26 <balrog-kun> plus my system generally doesn't like compiling big C++ packages and likes to run out of memory and make OOM kill all my other programs
Jun 16 18:55:45 <koen> it does need boost, it will just error out with unresolved symbols if you disable it
Jun 16 18:55:53 <koen> POS gnu software
Jun 16 18:56:00 * Elrond rewrites tools to make fitting the clock easier. ;-)
Jun 16 19:20:28 <Elrond> 1000.08 +/- 0.09864  (0.009864%)
Jun 16 19:20:42 <Elrond> Okay... I guess, I have something to measure the clock, when I play with it. ;o)
Jun 16 19:31:53 <Elrond> 990.098 +/- 0.1778  (0.01796%)
Jun 16 19:33:24 <rlozier> hello
Jun 16 19:35:22 <Elrond> HI rl
Jun 16 19:35:29 <Elrond> Huh.
Jun 16 19:36:31 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Hmm, would a 596.5MHz base clock make any sense to youß
Jun 16 19:36:33 <Elrond> ?
Jun 16 19:48:33 <Elrond> Theory: This thing can be tuned in 2.6Hz steps for doppler shifting. ;o)
Jun 16 19:53:28 <AngryPenguin> can someone help me with an error? im trying to setup the dev environment under qemu.
Jun 16 19:53:28 <aloril> Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki)
Jun 16 19:53:36 <pH5> Elrond: shouldn't there be a different clock for each channel then?
Jun 16 19:54:20 <koen> gnash 0.8.0 is now available in OE
Jun 16 19:58:06 <AngryPenguin> anybody?
Jun 16 19:58:54 <balrog-kun> AngryPenguin: what's the error?
Jun 16 19:59:27 <AngryPenguin> mtn: error: I/O failure while talking to peer monotone.openembedded.org, disconnecting
Jun 16 19:59:27 <AngryPenguin> make: *** [setup-mtn] Error 1
Jun 16 19:59:39 <AngryPenguin> im at "make setup"
Jun 16 20:01:10 <balrog-kun> i'm afraid i have no idea how to deal with monotone errors
Jun 16 20:02:02 <AngryPenguin> i dont even understand what the hell monotone is. Is there a better way to do this?
Jun 16 20:02:36 <AngryPenguin> i just wanna  play around with the software
Jun 16 20:03:45 <balrog-kun> AngryPenguin: it looks like some network error while downloading the code from openembedded
Jun 16 20:03:57 <mrcucumber> any news?
Jun 16 20:04:24 <schurig> AngryPenguin: can you "ping monotone.openembedded.org" ?
Jun 16 20:04:53 <AngryPenguin> yes
Jun 16 20:05:08 <schurig> AngryPenguin: and if you can: are you sure that there is no firewall between you and monotone.openembedded.org, blocking the TCP connection of mtn to them?
Jun 16 20:05:10 <AngryPenguin> it gets partway through the process but then throws this error
Jun 16 20:05:51 <AngryPenguin> it fails about a quarter of the way through every time
Jun 16 20:06:00 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: I can't see any simple relationship between that and any other signals.
Jun 16 20:06:32 <schurig> AngryPenguin: that would be TCP port 4691
Jun 16 20:06:51 <SpeedEvil> pH5: Not really - this is a local clock, for local timing. We need no multiple clocks here.
Jun 16 20:07:25 <schurig> AngryPenguin: so you already go "mtn: bytes in | bytes out | certs in | revs in" with some numbers below bytes-in and bytes-out ?
Jun 16 20:07:35 <AngryPenguin> yep
Jun 16 20:07:47 <schurig> AngryPenguin: too bad. It works for me :-)
Jun 16 20:07:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Minime/sketch]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
Jun 16 20:07:59 <AngryPenguin> it gets to ~6.8M in, then fails
Jun 16 20:08:12 <schurig> AngryPenguin: maybe your monotone db is hosed, you could try deleting it, re-wgetting the snapshot and start over
Jun 16 20:08:54 <schurig> AngryPenguin: but that is a wild guess
Jun 16 20:09:16 <schurig> AngryPenguin: another option would be to turn on Monotones verbosity and debug stuff. And then re-ask in #monotone
Jun 16 20:09:19 <AngryPenguin> we need a freakin .deb for this or at least a tarball of everything you need in one spot
Jun 16 20:09:46 <schurig> AngryPenguin: hehe, OE should have used GIT in the first place :-)
Jun 16 20:10:28 <AngryPenguin> usually i am good about figuring this kinda stuff out based on error messages, but i am totally lost here
Jun 16 20:10:40 <schurig> AngryPenguin: I'm currently using MokoMakefile, and the Monotone refresh was no problem (but I had OE already on my box, because I'm using it in other projects)
Jun 16 20:11:45 <schurig> AngryPenguin: "i dont even understand what the hell monotone is"  Monotone is a slow, but secure distributed source code revision system. Like bzr, git, Mercury and several others.
Jun 16 20:11:49 <AngryPenguin> oh well, i guess i just wont be able to contribute in any meaningful way. Perhaps i will try again in the future. 
Jun 16 20:11:53 <AngryPenguin> thanks for the help
Jun 16 20:19:04 <kiney_> counter
Jun 16 20:19:04 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 19:50:26 (2.827±2.8 days) (1489;230)
Jun 16 20:23:46 <balrog-kun> except git is not that slow :)
Jun 16 20:24:19 <SpeedEvil> Another idea for neo expansion. http://xs109.xs.to/xs109/06484/SithArmy.jpg
Jun 16 20:34:25 <deepank> angrypenguin:I also got the same error message as you but then restarted it and it has now moved on
Jun 16 20:59:26 <Elrond> Hmm, in cold2.log I can only find one "setup master clock" command. So this flexibility is just an "unused feature" it seems.
Jun 16 21:40:13 <CoreDump> I'm getting "dialer-window-history.c:(.text+0x0): multiple definition of `moko_ui_banner_show_text'"
Jun 16 21:40:24 <CoreDump> is anyone else hitting this?
Jun 16 22:06:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
Jun 16 22:15:02 <ruimoreir1> hi here
Jun 16 22:36:35 <nox-Hand> counter
Jun 16 22:36:35 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 18:41:40 (2.779±2.8 days) (1490;230)
Jun 16 22:36:41 <nox-Hand> 2 days :o
Jun 16 22:36:47 <nox-Hand> estimation
Jun 16 22:36:49 <nox-Hand> ;)
Jun 16 23:30:55 <balrog-kun> hmm i made a new task in Tasks, then deleted it and quit Tasks and the task still appeared in the 'today' screen
Jun 16 23:31:50 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: sounds like tasks did not removed it from eds or today have not polled eds again. :)
Jun 16 23:33:30 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: ah, perhaps
Jun 16 23:34:32 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: If you can reproduce and perhaps track it down a bugreport would be good. o-hand guys should know how to fix that easily.
Jun 16 23:36:17 <balrog-kun> ah, i can tell them directly :)
Jun 16 23:36:46 <stefan_schmidt> ah, you are also working for o-hand, right?
Jun 16 23:37:40 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: yes, just wasn't sure if this was a bug or a feature :)  and if others have perhaps seen it
Jun 16 23:38:30 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: I never tried it, but it should be consistent. If you deleted the tasks today should not show it.
Jun 16 23:38:40 <Elrond> Yuck... lowlevel trigger pulses on the hh-protocol. I love that.
Jun 16 23:38:52 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: okay, i will be reporting
Jun 16 23:39:07 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Just make sure it's reproducible.
Jun 16 23:39:13 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: So you making good progress it seems
Jun 16 23:39:27 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Well, I start to guess up things.
Jun 16 23:39:40 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Always a good start.
Jun 16 23:39:41 <Elrond> stefan_schmidt - Most stuff I'm finding out ends up in the wiki. ;o)
Jun 16 23:41:14 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: That is also good.
Jun 16 23:41:47 <wehttamb> counter
Jun 16 23:41:48 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 18:09:04 (2.756±2.8 days) (1491;230)
Jun 16 23:43:30 <Elrond> Hi ossman!
Jun 16 23:43:39 <ossman> evening
Jun 16 23:51:50 <Elrond> Hmm, let's see, if this really is triggering like in our lab equipment. ;-)
Jun 17 00:06:42 <Elrond> Anyone a nice webpage, where I can put gps coords and it tells me visible SVs?
Jun 17 00:06:58 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]]
Jun 17 00:07:07 <Elrond> s/visible //  superflous.
Jun 17 00:10:12 <cjb> so, I have one of these P1 things.  Should I use dfu or uboot to upgrade to a latest build, and can anyone recommend one, and should I upgrade uboot or just the NAND image and kernel?
Jun 17 00:10:50 <Elrond> cjb - What exactly do you want to do?
Jun 17 00:11:11 <cjb> get an image where making calls has a slight chance of working :)
Jun 17 00:11:47 <Elrond> Ahh. Don't update u-boot then. P1 should have a reasonable u-boot.
Jun 17 00:11:56 <cjb> ok
Jun 17 00:12:02 <balrog-kun> in my experience current images are not better at making calls than the ones shipped with P1, but they have a chance of working
Jun 17 00:12:23 <cjb> if I do dfu, can I send a file over USB?  I'd rather not use SD.
Jun 17 00:12:35 <cjb> that would be a reason for me to do dfu upgrade over uboot.
Jun 17 00:12:35 <Elrond> DFU is exactly for that.
Jun 17 00:12:46 <cjb> great.
Jun 17 00:13:01 <balrog-kun> cjb: DFU is a part of USB standar :)
Jun 17 00:13:03 <Elrond> cjb - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko
Jun 17 00:13:16 <Elrond> (skip the u-boot part!)
Jun 17 00:13:54 <balrog-kun> personally i'd upgrade u-boot too, after seeing that kernel flashes correctly
Jun 17 00:14:03 <balrog-kun> and upgrade rootfs after u-boot
Jun 17 00:14:59 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Well, I'm only upgrading u-boot to versions, that are tested.  I don't have a debug board.
Jun 17 00:16:17 <cjb> hm, the latest buildhost uImage is older than the latest zImage.  What's the difference?
Jun 17 00:16:33 <Elrond> cjb - Let me look.
Jun 17 00:17:03 <balrog-kun> the u-boot build 2134 works for at least one person (me)
Jun 17 00:17:35 <balrog-kun> err, wrong
Jun 17 00:17:42 <balrog-kun> :p  this is 2238
Jun 17 00:18:16 <Elrond> cjb - *arg* The images are again b0rked up. Don't upgrade.
Jun 17 00:18:41 <rwhitby> balrog-kun: how did you get dfu speed to increase - it currently takes a number of hours to reflash my P1 by dfu, whereas on P0 it took minutes.
Jun 17 00:18:42 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Well, on P1.  I have P0. ;)
Jun 17 00:18:56 <KragenSitaker> yay there are P1s
Jun 17 00:19:00 <Elrond> rwhitby - Update u-boot.
Jun 17 00:19:15 <Elrond> rwhitby - It has been fixed lately.
Jun 17 00:19:23 <balrog-kun> rwhitby: hours? i think it took about 30 minutes even with the slow version of u-boot
Jun 17 00:19:34 <Elrond> rwhitby - Of course the usual u-boot-precautions apply. ;-)
Jun 17 00:19:34 <rwhitby> is dfu of u-boot safe these days?
Jun 17 00:19:52 <balrog-kun> but, yes, current u-boot takes like 5 minutes for me to flash the rootfs
Jun 17 00:20:45 <rwhitby> balrog-kun: 2238 recent enough for u-boot?
Jun 17 00:20:55 <Elrond> rwhitby - Well, there are still nand erasing issues with rootfs via dfu. :-|
Jun 17 00:20:56 <rwhitby> oh, yes, you already said that :-)
Jun 17 00:21:15 <balrog-kun> rwhitby: yes, this is the version that takes about 5 minutes here when i flashed the rootfs using it
Jun 17 00:22:51 <rwhitby> ok, now to reset the neo (with is 15km away) via a serial controlled relay and dfu download to it from the nslu2 sitting next to it ...
Jun 17 00:23:40 <Elrond> rwhitby - Is it connected to the debug too?
Jun 17 00:23:49 <balrog-kun> Elrond: i also don't have a debug board but i have seen several HOWTOs for building JTAG connectors at home
Jun 17 00:24:14 <rwhitby> Elrond: yes - I have serial control of the reset switch on the debug board
Jun 17 00:24:24 <rwhitby> (remote serial control)
Jun 17 00:24:31 <Elrond> rwhitby - Ahh.
Jun 17 00:24:50 <rwhitby> so I can reset, then minicom to ACM0 to stop the boot, then dfu
Jun 17 00:25:12 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Hmmm... with the pin layout of the fic-proprietary jtag port on the phone... you could be lucky. ;-)
Jun 17 00:25:44 <cjb> Elrond: Crap.  I just did upgrade :)
Jun 17 00:25:47 <Elrond> rwhitby - ssh'ing into phone and doing "reboot" should also get you to reboot, then miniocom.
Jun 17 00:25:52 <cjb> Elrond: but only uImage/rootfs
Jun 17 00:26:07 <Elrond> cjb - The modules might not match 100% ;o)
Jun 17 00:26:08 <cjb> how are they borked?
Jun 17 00:26:13 <cjb> d'oh.
Jun 17 00:26:17 <rwhitby> Elrond: yeah, but the reset switch on the debug board works even if the kernel or u-boot is borked :-)
Jun 17 00:26:30 <Elrond> rwhitby - Ahh :)
Jun 17 00:26:30 <cjb> what's the deal with a separate modules tarball, anyway?  why?
Jun 17 00:27:01 <Elrond> This is just for convenience. ;-)
Jun 17 00:27:52 <balrog-kun> i think they started installing some basic modules into the rootfs by default now?
Jun 17 00:28:23 <balrog-kun> i may be wrong but i've seen the audio modules being loaded in qemu somehow, and i never installed the modules tarball into qemu
Jun 17 00:28:24 <Elrond> balrog-kun - They did. But most likely they just again do not match with the latest uImage. ;-)
Jun 17 00:28:33 <balrog-kun> Elrond: ah i see :)
Jun 17 00:28:58 <Elrond> balrog-kun - They will still load, just the svn-rev will be wrong.
Jun 17 00:29:23 <cjb> bah, kernel panic.
Jun 17 00:29:46 <balrog-kun> with the 2134 uImage build, the audio seemed to work in qemu
Jun 17 00:30:02 <cjb> No init found.  Do I need the modules to be able to boot or something?
Jun 17 00:30:05 <Elrond> balrog-kun - ipkg list_installed | grep module
Jun 17 00:30:17 <Elrond> cjb - In theory not.
Jun 17 00:30:35 <Elrond> cjb - Did you really flash the rootfs?
Jun 17 00:30:35 <cjb> Any idea why it wouldn't be able to find /sbin/init?
Jun 17 00:30:44 <balrog-kun> cjb: nope, means that rootfs didn't somehow make it way into the right partition
Jun 17 00:30:49 <cjb> % sudo ./dfu-util -a 5 -R -D ./openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070612040932.rootfs.jffs2
Jun 17 00:30:55 <cjb> Starting download: [##################################################] finished!
Jun 17 00:30:55 <cjb> state(2) = dfuIDLE, status(0) = No error condition is present
Jun 17 00:31:13 <cjb> Found Runtime: [0x1457:0x5119] devnum=15, cfg=0, intf=0, alt=5, name="rootfs"
Jun 17 00:31:21 <balrog-kun> this looks correct
Jun 17 00:31:30 <balrog-kun> cjb: did you flash uImage first or second?
Jun 17 00:31:37 <cjb> first
Jun 17 00:31:44 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Shouldn't make a difference.
Jun 17 00:31:54 <balrog-kun> okay, then that should be a problem
Jun 17 00:32:10 <balrog-kun> Elrond: theoretically it shouldn't, but there's a small chance it would if uImage was written second
Jun 17 00:32:25 <Elrond> balrog-kun - yuck.
Jun 17 00:33:07 <balrog-kun> oops s/should/shouldn't/
Jun 17 00:33:27 <cjb> perhaps this jffs2 image is broken.  any recent known good?
Jun 17 00:34:22 <balrog-kun> cjb: the 20070609142537 works for me on the Neo
Jun 17 00:34:40 <balrog-kun> cjb: but the one you used works for me in qemu, i'm pretty sure it is also okay
Jun 17 00:35:56 <cjb> huh,
Jun 17 00:35:59 <Elrond> cjb - I never was brave enoug to do a "nand erase rootfs" before the dfu... but it might help.
Jun 17 00:36:06 <balrog-kun> hmm, 20070609142537 is not on the buildhost, i wonder if it has been removed?
Jun 17 00:37:41 <Elrond> Good night people.
Jun 17 00:37:41 <cjb> if I set console to usb, will that give me kernel boot messages over usbserial?
Jun 17 00:37:58 <cjb> (the uboot Set console to USB, that is.)
Jun 17 00:38:04 <balrog-kun> cjb: no, it won't
Jun 17 00:38:21 <cjb> curses.  makes sense, I guess.
Jun 17 00:38:22 <nox-Hand> Life? =)
Jun 17 00:38:38 <cjb> I was wondering if uboot might do something funky like emulate a serial port for it.
Jun 17 00:39:21 <balrog-kun> that would assume u-boot is still running during the kernel initialisation
Jun 17 00:40:14 <balrog-kun> hmm you could probably make a serial driver for linux that writes the output to SD or nand
Jun 17 00:40:47 <cjb> or hack u-boot to be persistent :)
Jun 17 00:40:59 <cjb> yeah, we're working on an SD serial card for OLPC
Jun 17 00:41:20 <stefan_schmidt> Better hack up the usb gadget serial driver for this. Makes it usable on other systems too
Jun 17 00:41:30 <balrog-kun> u-boot can't do multitasking because it can't even handle interrupts :p
Jun 17 00:41:33 <cjb> stefan_schmidt: which?
Jun 17 00:41:55 <cjb> balrog-kun: neither does open firmware, and OLPC keeps that resident
Jun 17 00:42:26 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: The linux usb gadget serial driver
Jun 17 00:42:36 <balrog-kun> apart from the fact that Linux boot specification for ARM explicitely says that interrupts must be diabled and the cpu must be in USR32 mode when control is passed to the zImage
Jun 17 00:43:01 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: /usr/src/linux/drivers/usb/gadget/serial.c
Jun 17 00:43:02 <cjb> stefan_schmidt: I mean, to achieve which of the things we were talking about?
Jun 17 00:43:17 <cjb> stefan_schmidt: having uboot emulate serial, or the SD stuff?
Jun 17 00:43:34 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: ah :) Early serial output over usb that is
Jun 17 00:44:00 <cjb> stefan_schmidt: yeah, I'd enjoy doing that.  do you think it would work?
Jun 17 00:44:43 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: It should. Need to make sure usb is ready early.
Jun 17 00:45:26 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: But I never though that much about it.
Jun 17 00:46:48 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: Is early serial access the only reason for the SD->serial card for OLPC?
Jun 17 00:47:24 <cjb> stefan_schmidt: yes; we could use usb-serial otherwise.
Jun 17 00:48:35 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: That'S the point. You never though about the idea of the early usb gadget driver? I mean making new hardware is _way_ harder then hacking a driver
Jun 17 00:49:43 <rwhitby> stefan_schmidt: gadget requires usb device hardware, right? (thinking about whether this would help nslu2 early serial access)
Jun 17 00:49:54 <rwhitby> (nslu2 only has host usb)
Jun 17 00:50:09 <stefan_schmidt> rwhitby: yes, gadget is usb device
Jun 17 00:50:29 <Linux_Galore> hai folks
Jun 17 00:50:42 <Linux_Galore> funny iPhone parody http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRlASCZ6hx0
Jun 17 00:50:58 <stefan_schmidt> hi Linux_Galore 
Jun 17 00:52:30 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: BTW; i still have hope to be able buying a OLPC in europe within the next two years. My god child gets older every day and if not OLPC I need to get her an classmate pc or something similar. ;)
Jun 17 00:52:40 <Linux_Galore> although the one with a pretty girl is nicer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1A_h6Iwyrk&mode=related&search=
Jun 17 00:53:47 <Linux_Galore> stefan_schmidt: actually just about every PC maker now has a small form factor entry level PC project, some make the OLPC & Classmate look pretty basic
Jun 17 00:54:28 <cjb> stefan_schmidt: I don't have any inside knowledge, but I hope that'll happen too.
Jun 17 00:54:45 <cjb> Linux_Galore: I bet they don't have sunlight readable screens, human power or mesh networking..
Jun 17 00:54:54 <stefan_schmidt> Linux_Galore: The point is that I like to support the right thing (TM)
Jun 17 00:56:52 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: yeah, I will wait and drink tea. I it does not happen I get her one of our new secret OpenMoko products. ;)
Jun 17 00:57:48 <cjb> Elrond: nand erase rootfs and re-dfu worked.
Jun 17 00:57:59 <Linux_Galore> cjb: they all run Linux without any issues as far as I can see and have wifi so they can run all the same software as the OLPC
Jun 17 00:58:32 <stefan_schmidt> Linux_Galore: cjb talked about hardware features...
Jun 17 00:58:33 <Linux_Galore> asus eee (easy) small form factor laptop -> http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2007/06/asus_eee_pc_gets_pricing_and_r.html
Jun 17 00:58:59 <Linux_Galore> stefan_schmidt: the ere is nothing really that spectacular about the OLPC hardware
Jun 17 00:59:49 <stefan_schmidt> Linux_Galore: Sunlight readable display and wifi hardware with firmware mesh support is not bad, or?
Jun 17 01:00:27 <Linux_Galore> stefan_schmidt: sunlight readable LCD's with poor colour reproduction isnt exactly what I call steller 
Jun 17 01:00:48 <Linux_Galore> stefan_schmidt: the mesh thing is just a wifi app
Jun 17 01:00:52 <cjb> Linux_Galore: the asus laptop's CPU has no cache (!).
Jun 17 01:01:22 <stefan_schmidt> Linux_Galore: a wifi app in the firmware running without CPU running
Jun 17 01:01:52 <stefan_schmidt> Linux_Galore: And the display is a matter of taste. I like the idea about color and b/w in one.
Jun 17 01:01:53 <cjb> there's also the olpc suspend stuff, with the screen and wireless staying on while the cpu is off
Jun 17 01:02:03 <cjb> which gives us tens of hours of battery life.
Jun 17 01:02:10 <cjb> compared to the classmate's 40W power supply.
Jun 17 01:02:22 * cjb is happy to admit he's biased towards OLPC.
Jun 17 01:02:33 <stefan_schmidt> I would not say that OLPC is the greatest stuff outside but they definitely have some nice ideas and features
Jun 17 01:02:41 <Linux_Galore> dont get me wrong Im not saying the OLPC is rubbish but if you have a bit of $$$ look around first
Jun 17 01:03:03 * cjb would rather have the olpc screen than any $3000 laptop screen, personally.
Jun 17 01:03:05 <balrog-kun> and the manufacture costs of OLPC hardware also beat most manufacturers
Jun 17 01:03:37 <stefan_schmidt> Linux_Galore: I'm not interested how much it is but the idea behind it. :)
Jun 17 01:04:04 <Linux_Galore> stefan_schmidt: Im fine with that but dont become blind to anothers idealism 
Jun 17 01:04:07 <mjr> I'll certainly buy a laptop from OLPC if they start selling to us better-off people too at some point
Jun 17 01:04:28 <cjb> Linux_Galore: why does idealism have to be blind?  :)
Jun 17 01:04:51 <Linux_Galore> last I heard the people behind OLPC are looking at producing a comercial variant 
Jun 17 01:05:04 <cjb> yeah, no concrete plans yet.
Jun 17 01:05:06 <stefan_schmidt> cjb: Never done. I heard a lot keynotes, read about it and spoke with cjb about his work :)
Jun 17 01:05:46 <Linux_Galore> cjb: one word "stanalism "  
Jun 17 01:05:47 <stefan_schmidt> s/cjb/Linux_Galore/
Jun 17 01:05:47 <apt> stefan_schmidt meant: Linux_Galore: Never done. I heard a lot keynotes, read about it and spoke with cjb about his work :)
Jun 17 01:06:18 * stefan_schmidt votes for less politics and more technicla stuff in this channel
Jun 17 01:06:37 <Linux_Galore> idealism can blind one from seeing reality 
Jun 17 01:07:44 * mjr votes for less far-fetched politics from people who can't even spell stalinism
Jun 17 01:07:53 <Linux_Galore> I love OSS to death but at the same time Im always aware of reality and try to balance my beliefs 
Jun 17 01:08:35 <cjb> you aren't balancing your beliefs:  you have a *belief* that OSS is somehow incompatible with reality.
Jun 17 01:08:43 <mjr> indeed
Jun 17 01:08:44 <cjb> that's as much a belief as the idea that it isn't.
Jun 17 01:08:58 <Linux_Galore> mjr: ah so you dont want to argue the point so you just attack the spelling, that makes you look better does it ?
Jun 17 01:10:04 <mjr> certainly better than someone apparently trying to go for invoking Godwin
Jun 17 01:10:13 <Linux_Galore> cjb: no following another beliefs without looking at reality is a dangerous path
Jun 17 01:10:18 <Linux_Galore> anothers*
Jun 17 01:10:21 <stefan_schmidt> *sigh*, why need we to discuss this here?
Jun 17 01:10:35 <stefan_schmidt> Anyway, time for bed. Night all.
Jun 17 01:11:48 <Linux_Galore> mjr: Im not invoking anyone, its just a comment
Jun 17 01:11:57 <cjb> Linux_Galore: .. you're ignoring what I said.  You assume that we aren't looking at reality; that is a belief you are following.
Jun 17 01:12:31 <Linux_Galore> cjb: I dont assume anything its just a comment
Jun 17 01:16:04 * mjr isn't sure if LG is a troll or just socially inept; I guess I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter for the time being
Jun 17 01:16:37 <Linux_Galore> mjr: aaah sorry I didnt make a spelling mistake to keep you amused, I must work harder
Jun 17 01:16:55 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r2283 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/ (s3c2410.c wm8753.c): Rewrite DMA queuing. Enhance buffering of audio data in WM8753.
Jun 17 01:16:56 <cjb> mjr: or just not full of well-formed ideas yet. 
Jun 17 01:16:56 <mjr> actually, you're making them all the time
Jun 17 01:17:15 <mjr> I just don't get into the habit of pointing out every last one
Jun 17 01:17:39 <balrog-kun> roh: now with ultimate sound quality :-)
Jun 17 01:17:57 <mjr> cjb, true, I suppose
Jun 17 01:17:59 <balrog-kun> at least when using aplay (madplay is a bit slow)
Jun 17 01:24:48 <cjb> what's the easiest way to get modules.tgz onto the phone?  I see there isn't enough disk space to copy it and then unpack.
Jun 17 01:26:21 <balrog-kun> cjb: perhaps choosing only the ones you need and scp'ing
Jun 17 01:26:37 <balrog-kun> cjb: i chose to use non-modular kernels
Jun 17 01:27:57 <cjb> oh!  how can I do that?
Jun 17 01:28:00 <cjb> that sounds much more sensible.
Jun 17 01:30:14 <balrog-kun> you compile the kernel using the patches from svn, or probably there's a way to get OE or MokoMakefile to do that for you
Jun 17 01:30:33 <balrog-kun> you'll likely also need to enlarge the kernel partition in the NAND because it's only 2MB
Jun 17 01:30:40 <cjb> I see.
Jun 17 01:31:47 <balrog-kun> my current kernel is 2.8MB but it has debugging symbols
Jun 17 01:32:19 <cjb> it would be pretty cool to put up a static kernel that was <2M.
Jun 17 01:33:25 <balrog-kun> i already removed most of the exotic USB or Bt or other devices that the defconfig has enable "just in case" (some of them there's completely no way there will ever be used on the Neo)
Jun 17 01:33:41 <balrog-kun> i mean, i disabled the drivers for those devices in my config
Jun 17 01:34:02 <balrog-kun> also all the IP or IPv6 funky protocols and filters
Jun 17 01:36:52 <cjb> odd that the uImage doesn't contain MMC, it's only 500K.
Jun 17 01:37:07 <cjb> I guess it's easier to debug it as a module, or something?
Jun 17 01:37:40 <rwhitby> balrog-kun: my dfu slowness must be the nslu2, cause even with that latest u-boot it's still taking a very long time to flash
Jun 17 01:37:47 <balrog-kun> cjb: i don't know, i guess the person that made the defconfig went with the defaults
Jun 17 01:37:50 <cjb> rwhitby: for me too
Jun 17 01:38:19 <balrog-kun> rwhitby: in orders of hours?
Jun 17 01:39:01 <cjb> balrog-kun: pullcord:cjb~/openmoko % history -D | grep dfu
Jun 17 01:39:07 <cjb>  1021  9:17  sudo ./dfu-util -a 5 -R -D ./openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070612040932.rootfs.jffs2
Jun 17 01:39:29 <cjb> (so, order ten minutes for 30M)
Jun 17 01:39:38 <balrog-kun> cjb: that's not so bad i think
Jun 17 01:40:04 <rwhitby> balrog-kun: it's taken one hour so far just for the kernel
Jun 17 01:40:15 <balrog-kun> rwhitby: ouch
Jun 17 01:40:30 <rwhitby> I wonder if it's the client side ...
Jun 17 01:40:47 <Linux_Galore> jffs2 is pretty neat
Jun 17 01:40:59 <rwhitby> (this is the first time I've used dfu-util since receiving the P1)
Jun 17 01:41:08 <balrog-kun> i guess that would be the nslu2 then.. usb does strange things sometimes
Jun 17 01:41:20 <cjb> jffs2 is pretty old :/
Jun 17 01:41:22 <rwhitby> Linux_Galore: squashfs+mini_fo jffs2 overlay is even better :-)
Jun 17 01:41:32 <cjb> you need to read every inode every time you mount jffs2
Jun 17 01:41:47 <cjb> which is only a few seconds on moko, but for OLPC's 1G flash, it's more like fifteen seconds
Jun 17 01:41:50 <balrog-kun> cjb: yeah, this is a pretty bad design
Jun 17 01:41:55 <cjb> and you can't do it in the background
Jun 17 01:42:16 <rwhitby> cjb: has olpc looked at squashfs+jffs2 overlay (mini_fo or unionfs)?
Jun 17 01:42:23 <cjb> rwhitby: yes
Jun 17 01:42:33 <cjb> rwhitby: we're probably going to just wait for logfs and use that
Jun 17 01:42:37 <cjb> (logfs == jffs3)
Jun 17 01:42:50 <balrog-kun> cjb: and it locks an amount of RAM proportional to the number of file on the whole os, for the whole time that until umount
Jun 17 01:42:53 <cjb> rwhitby: but we're also leaving some unpartitioned space on our NAND to store the kernel, possibly
Jun 17 01:43:00 <balrog-kun> s/os/fs/
Jun 17 01:43:00 <apt> balrog-kun meant: cjb: and it locks an amount of RAM proportional to the number of file on the whole fs, for the whole time that until umount
Jun 17 01:43:03 <cjb> rwhitby: and then we can get to the kernel, at least, without this delay
Jun 17 01:45:38 <cjb> how do I get the "+" symbol in the dialer?
Jun 17 01:45:45 <rwhitby> cjb: sounds like you're turning it into an nslu2 flash layout :-)
Jun 17 01:45:50 <Linux_Galore> is the logfs overhead worse of better than JFFS2 i wonder
Jun 17 01:45:58 * cjb just tried making a call, it attempted to dial for a while but didn't make anything ring.
Jun 17 01:46:04 <cjb> Linux_Galore: massively better.
Jun 17 01:46:08 <balrog-kun> Linux_Galore: it's supposed to be much better
Jun 17 01:46:13 <cjb> Linux_Galore: takes 65ms to mount on OLPC, barely any RAM.
Jun 17 01:46:31 <cjb> even the jffs2 author thinks it does the right thing :)
Jun 17 01:46:37 <Linux_Galore> cjb: woth waiting for then
Jun 17 01:46:52 * Linux_Galore reads up http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/2017200
Jun 17 01:46:55 <cjb> well, for olpc we don't have a choice; we have to ship in three months.
Jun 17 01:47:01 <cjb> but for the next release, sure.
Jun 17 01:47:06 <Linux_Galore> worth*
Jun 17 01:47:44 * balrog-kun wouldn't use the words "new way of thinking" :)
Jun 17 01:48:16 <Linux_Galore> says on the above article JFFS has less overhead than logfs
Jun 17 01:48:54 <Linux_Galore> logfs is more future proof though
Jun 17 01:49:16 <cjb> CPU overhead, perhaps?
Jun 17 01:49:55 <cjb> hm, still can't get a "+" out of the dialer.
Jun 17 01:51:19 <balrog-kun> cjb: afaik + is only a shortcut for 00 in some mobile phones dialers
Jun 17 01:51:23 <Linux_Galore> sorry I mean cpu overhead 
Jun 17 01:51:41 <cjb> balrog-kun: no, the number that + maps to is country-dependent.
Jun 17 01:51:47 <balrog-kun> my phone doesn't have the + at all
Jun 17 01:51:57 <cjb> it's the international code for "whatever prefix means dial internationally".
Jun 17 01:52:03 <cjb> and that prefix changes country to country.
Jun 17 01:52:06 <balrog-kun> cjb: ah i see
Jun 17 01:52:48 <balrog-kun> cjb: then FIC would have to have figured out that local code for everyone they sent the P1 to
Jun 17 01:53:23 <balrog-kun> i think there's currently no way for openmoko-dialer to know what country it is in
Jun 17 01:53:49 <Linux_Galore> with laptops heading towards using flash based hardisks logfs will become very important to OSS
Jun 17 01:55:47 <cjb> Linux_Galore: I agree.
Jun 17 01:55:58 <cjb> balrog-kun: hm, yeah, perhaps so
Jun 17 01:57:12 <balrog-kun> i hope logfs will have all the features that ext2/ext3/reiserfs absorbed over the years, if logfs is to be used on laptops
Jun 17 01:58:21 <balrog-kun> but for me it looks like it's starting from the ground and the author is way too optimistic about things like debugging
Jun 17 01:58:27 <cjb> balrog-kun: whoa, steady :)
Jun 17 01:58:44 <cjb> balrog-kun: flash is *very* different to a hard disk.  it has separate write/erase operations, etc.
Jun 17 01:58:54 <cjb> you're never going to see a general purpose fs on there.
Jun 17 01:59:24 <cjb> hm, speaker works but mic doesn't, for me.
Jun 17 01:59:29 <cjb> is there something I need to do to set up mic?
Jun 17 02:00:14 <balrog-kun> cjb: yeah, but on a device used as rootfs for a laptop i'd like to see all the features like ACL, in-place execution, journalling and other things that reiserfs has
Jun 17 02:00:38 <balrog-kun> cryptoloop, volume managers support
Jun 17 02:01:40 <balrog-kun> (okay, the in-place execution doesn't apply here) :p
Jun 17 02:04:00 <rwhitby> balrog-kun: + is part of GSM standard
Jun 17 02:04:07 <rwhitby> it must be supported by all carriers
Jun 17 02:04:26 <rwhitby> (specifically so the phone *doesn't* need to know the prefix for all countries)
Jun 17 02:04:36 <balrog-kun> rwhitby: oh? can you issue "ATD+44xxxxxxx"?
Jun 17 02:04:40 <rwhitby> yes
Jun 17 02:04:51 <balrog-kun> i didn't know about that
Jun 17 02:06:19 <balrog-kun> my reasoning was that tone dialling has no frequency for a '+'
Jun 17 02:06:39 <balrog-kun> but obviously there's no reason to use tone dialling in GSM
Jun 17 02:06:48 <roh> exactly
Jun 17 02:07:04 <roh> gsm is more like isdn than like anything pots-like
Jun 17 02:07:53 <roh> some equipment is supporting dtmf as feature, not because its needed ;)
Jun 17 02:08:35 <balrog-kun> i see
Jun 17 02:21:11 <cjb> neat, just got a call on openmoko :)
Jun 17 02:21:18 <cjb> but sound didn't work, even though aplay works
Jun 17 02:21:24 <cjb> any idea what's up with that?
Jun 17 02:29:51 <Linux_Galore> voice mail still needs dtmf
Jun 17 02:29:52 <high-rez> counter
Jun 17 02:29:53 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (70% for P1 <=2007-07-07) 40% for P1: 2 days 16:45:01 (2.698±2.7 days) (1492;230)
Jun 17 02:32:16 <cjb> sweet!  this time I received the call and could hear the other person
Jun 17 02:32:23 <cjb> but they couldn't hear me
Jun 17 02:38:17 <cjb> anyone know how to get the mic working?
Jun 17 02:56:14 <NineTeen67Comet> I've been reading around, but can't see if OpenMoko will be available in Japan any time soon (I'm a Linux using American in Okinawa JP)... 
Jun 17 02:56:28 <cjb> NineTeen67Comet: yes, it will be sold worldwide, soon
Jun 17 02:56:56 <cjb> d'oh; I reflashed my NAND, and apparently the binary-only gllin was on there.  where do I get a replacement from?
Jun 17 02:57:02 <NineTeen67Comet> Awesome, can't wait.. I'm pretty sick of my traditional phone, and do not wanna hang with an iPhone .. 
Jun 17 02:57:17 * NineTeen67Comet not to mention apt-get install .. sounds like home ..
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jun 17 02:59:56 2007