**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 22 02:59:57 2007 Jun 22 03:25:34 Attempting to build OpenMoko on a PPC Gentoo system (that's a lot faster that the 800MHz MiniITX..) All's going well, although #include had to be hacked out of build/tmp/work/ppc-linux/perl-native-5.8.7-r3/perl-5.8.7/ext/IPC/SysV/SysV.xs to get that package to build. Jun 22 03:26:32 (with MokoMakefile, that is) Jun 22 03:35:59 baird: is it Apple hardware? Jun 22 03:36:16 not that this helps with your problem, I'm just interested in PPC. Jun 22 03:44:28 * summatusmentis has a IBM RS/6000 PPC Jun 22 03:45:04 trying to decide if it's worth wiping AIX, and if it is, whether or not I should put a GUI on it Jun 22 03:45:15 cjb: yup. My 14" G4 iBook Jun 22 04:00:31 baird hm.. interresting Jun 22 04:03:39 baird i know there are some endian issues with dfu-util, but perl is plain like oe builds it.. that should error the same with every OE Jun 22 04:12:10 hello everyone! Jun 22 04:12:27 I am a python programmer... is there room for me in the Open Moko phone? Jun 22 04:12:27 encompass: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 22 04:12:47 thanks aloril Jun 22 04:12:51 :P Jun 22 04:13:12 there is room for every developer ;-) Jun 22 04:13:34 does it run python now? Jun 22 04:14:07 yes Jun 22 04:14:18 <---- Mr. Python Jun 22 04:14:19 (not in default image, but you can install it) Jun 22 04:14:23 you bet it runs on the Neo Jun 22 04:14:31 fancy that Jun 22 04:15:50 how do I get started with one of these phones? Is purchasing a non working phone neccessary? Jun 22 04:16:06 current state of OpenMoko specific bindings: http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/06/state-of-bindings.html Jun 22 04:16:25 * encompass looks Jun 22 04:16:33 encompass: see MokoMakefile link from FAQ, you can use QEMU Jun 22 04:17:05 I jsut read this post :P Jun 22 04:17:15 I never finished it :/ Jun 22 04:17:18 cool Jun 22 04:18:33 When is the scheduled release date date for this phone. Do we ahve one yet? Jun 22 04:20:14 The reason I ask, is I am trying to find something a little more different then the ever popular nokia in Finland. Jun 22 04:20:59 date not yet knows, but we should have news soon Jun 22 04:21:03 counter Jun 22 04:21:03 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (75% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* in 2 days 15:49:26 (2.659±2.7 days) (1545;233) Jun 22 04:27:16 is there a counter that counts how many times the counter has been wrong? :) Jun 22 04:30:19 hehe, eventually it hopefully is right ;-) Jun 22 04:31:41 which reminds me to adjust P1+ counter ... Jun 22 04:32:50 eventually, yes. :P Jun 22 04:33:21 also if you count all counters, then they together are right ;-) Jun 22 04:36:04 (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: Help.. How to apply patch to BitBake recipe file? Jun 22 04:55:19 fudged P1+/P2, maybe now too conservative but .. we will see ;-) Jun 22 04:55:52 counter Jun 22 04:55:53 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (75% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* in 2 days 15:32:01 (2.647±2.6 days) (1546;234) Jun 22 04:56:28 P1+/P2 only visible with "/msg counter aloril?" or at web page Jun 22 04:57:14 I wonder what this sound card is capable of... Jun 22 04:59:36 has anyone played sounds such as an encoded file... like ogg? Jun 22 05:01:01 IIRC what was talked floating point ogg codec was too slow, but integer codec was OK Jun 22 05:02:31 ogg takes more the interprete than mp3 am I correct? Jun 22 05:04:17 difference between integer codecs of ogg and mp3 wasn't that big, but I guess mp3 was faster (I might remember wrong or maybe even there was not real test) Jun 22 05:56:27 /channels Jun 22 06:28:56 [06:56] P1+/P2 only visible with "/msg counter aloril?" or at web page Jun 22 06:29:06 s/counter aloril/aloril counter/ Jun 22 06:29:06 schurig meant: [06:56] P1+/P2 only visible with "/msg aloril counter?" or at web page Jun 22 07:00:07 hi all, a question about busybox...do you know if mount accept the -U option? Jun 22 07:01:24 seems not Jun 22 07:48:15 where can i buy an FIC NEO1973? Jun 22 07:48:16 kaktuspalme: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 22 07:49:53 thx :) Jun 22 07:52:22 so many people here asked where to one that I guess two things will happen: a) one third of the people won't actually buy one Jun 22 07:52:43 b) another third of them buys them, but are highly dissatisfied, becuase of it's development status Jun 22 07:52:57 c) another third doesn't get a phone, because FIC will run out of phones Jun 22 07:53:06 c) they all complain about VAT and duty Jun 22 07:53:26 that leaves no d) no more phones for real developers :-) Jun 22 07:56:52 :) Jun 22 07:57:18 Perhaps i want to try developing apps for it Jun 22 07:58:33 so im interested to buy one Jun 22 08:01:08 schurig i don't really see a problem there. when we really sell so many develphones so we run out of them we can just make more. Jun 22 08:01:47 roh: hey, that a) b) c) thing was not meant tooo seriously, althought I guess b) will happen Jun 22 08:01:59 schurig its mp now, so its just another run and voila. could take a bit but is no problem. problems you have to get to that point :) Jun 22 08:02:12 roh: "we can just make more" ... if you have enought all parts, e.g. LCDs, on stock Jun 22 08:02:31 hello Jun 22 08:02:38 roh: what means "its mp now"? What is "mp" ? Jun 22 08:02:48 management problem? Jun 22 08:02:51 schurig i don't think too many people will buy it too fast. i think we have warned enough that its a devel device. Jun 22 08:02:56 schurig mass production Jun 22 08:03:01 ah Jun 22 08:04:35 I'd buy one and look a) into the phoning app and b) into GPS stuff Jun 22 08:06:03 hehe... gps is 'there is a gpsd which you can talk to' and phoning... i'm glad if we have software which is able to make a call after inserting a sim when we ship them. propably you will have to update the software first anyways Jun 22 08:06:33 so its still work to be done to get to the point where its a enduser device Jun 22 08:06:40 10:06 hrw@home:~$ cd devel/openmoko/ Jun 22 08:06:40 10:06 hrw@home:openmoko$ make update-makefile;make update;cd build/; . ../setup-env;nice bitbake openmoko-devel-image Jun 22 08:06:46 time to refresh phone Jun 22 08:07:04 you're using the makefile wrong Jun 22 08:07:24 koen: maybe - but this works Jun 22 08:07:29 roh: where is your problem? The first shipment is for developers and they should be able to upgrade everyhting Jun 22 08:07:50 Rince no problem. just a comment Jun 22 08:09:09 hrw you could do a make update-makefile;make update-openmoko; make openmoko-devel-image also.. should save some seconds since the oe does not need to be updated at the current setup Jun 22 08:10:15 koen correct me if i'm wrong here.. but when oe would be updated another make setup run would be a good idea right? Jun 22 08:10:52 you're wrong Jun 22 08:11:04 using the makefile is a bad idea for *developers* Jun 22 08:11:37 hmm oh i've seen, i can develope apps using qemu Jun 22 08:11:48 perhaps this is the better way at the moment Jun 22 08:12:51 koen: its one cd + one ctrl-r operation Jun 22 08:13:48 roh: I avoid using make openmoko-devel-imag because with my way I end in shell which can run bitbake directly Jun 22 08:14:20 koen its about getting reproducable builds for people not familiar with oe. the make setup was needed everytime the oe-om moko changed afaik Jun 22 08:14:41 hrw mokomakefile does exactly the same Jun 22 08:15:22 roh: I used bitbake before it was named bitbake so I prefer to use bitbake Jun 22 08:15:46 hrw :) n.p. Jun 22 08:16:11 hrw then you can ignore it completely and just do svn up in openmoko/ Jun 22 08:18:20 how fast does openmoko run in QEMU? Fast like on the phone? Jun 22 08:18:29 even a bit faster Jun 22 08:18:34 roh: openmoko is one of things which I do in spare time (which is limited) so I prefer to use as simple way as possible Jun 22 08:18:39 kaktuspalme: depends on hardware Jun 22 08:18:59 kaktuspalme: on some of my machines it will be slower on some faster.. Jun 22 08:19:08 hrw: ah cool ok :) Jun 22 08:19:31 is the processor in Neo a x86 arm or ppc processor`? Jun 22 08:19:39 arm9 Jun 22 08:20:05 s3c2410 == arm920t == armv4t Jun 22 08:20:15 thx Jun 22 08:22:53 arm9 is a useless denominator Jun 22 08:23:07 you want to now the instructionset Jun 22 08:25:15 there is arm3/4/5/6/7/9/11 numbering, there is arm3/4/5/6 (with variants), then goes cores like arm920t,arm926t,arm1136-f etc Jun 22 08:25:20 arm naming is mess Jun 22 08:26:04 and then you encounter the intel ARMs which are an even bigger mess Jun 22 08:26:14 arm920t is armv4t but arm926t-ejs/arm926t-es are armv5te or armv4t? Jun 22 08:26:38 o yes.. Jun 22 08:27:22 armv5te Jun 22 08:27:24 strongarm, pxa21x/25x/26x/27x/32x (last ones released by Marvell), iop2xx/3xx, ixp42x/43x/4xx... Jun 22 08:32:14 hrw: re . ../setup-env - mokomakefile is explicitly designed so that developers can get to bitbake directly like that. it is not an incorrect use as koen states. Jun 22 08:45:08 hi there. Jun 22 09:18:52 bedboi: Jun 22 09:18:58 hi kaktuspalme Jun 22 09:19:13 is there any fresh news? Jun 22 09:24:03 Elrond: the clock bit (0x2000 in 0x08 on channel 0) not only enables the timestamp counter, but also the functionality of registers 0x20,0x21,0x23 and 0x2c on channels 1-8 Jun 22 09:29:47 IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/hrw/devel/openmoko/oe/packages/openocd/./openocd-link-static.patch' Jun 22 09:29:50 ;( Jun 22 09:31:02 hi guys Jun 22 09:40:00 Elrond: further, on channel 1, the word at 0x01 needs to be set up before 0x23 can be used. Jun 22 09:44:12 Elrond: bit 0x8 in register 0x01, more specifically Jun 22 10:04:26 mickey|fic: I'm back later BUT can you explain me the moko-gsmd-connection.h and the methods you have declared as 'signals' Jun 22 10:04:51 mickey|fic: they are not defined anywhere and I wonder why you don't have the signals in the Class (signals in GObject are still black magic to me) Jun 22 10:12:05 mickey|fic: openocd-native build is broken. Applying the patch does not work. Jun 22 10:13:31 morning Jun 22 10:13:32 mickey|fic: oh, and my nightly rebuild from scratch has also problems with lbftdi-native Jun 22 10:13:35 hi TRIsoft Jun 22 10:15:01 mickey|fic: http://pastebin.ca/583369 Jun 22 10:19:42 hmm, the libftdi problems smells like a do_patch problem as we have a patch to disable doxygen Jun 22 10:19:58 stefan_schmidt: i probably broke something during the oe update. Jun 22 10:20:05 let me check openocd and libftdi Jun 22 10:20:49 mickey|fic: That's my guess, too. Jun 22 10:21:48 mickey|fic: indeed. A -c rebuild shows that the patch applying fails for libftdi Jun 22 10:22:06 Morning all Jun 22 10:26:56 CIA3: fix libftdi-native Jun 22 10:27:01 hmm, CIA is on holiday Jun 22 10:27:04 CIA21: fix openocd-native Jun 22 10:27:11 all done. any more problems? Jun 22 10:27:18 let me check Jun 22 10:29:15 mickey|fic: both fine now Jun 22 10:30:34 hmm, our OM-bug bot is also on holiday. Jun 22 10:30:58 OM-bug: Close #617 Jun 22 10:38:00 stefan_schmidt: fetching of openocd is broken Jun 22 10:38:56 hrw i just build openocd and libftdi.. works Jun 22 10:39:20 I faked stamps for openocd-native to skip it Jun 22 10:50:01 mickey|fic: got a second? Jun 22 10:50:41 mickey|fic: can you explain how the 'signals' functions in http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.h are supposed to work? Jun 22 10:50:52 i could, but not now. doing a video in a second Jun 22 10:51:00 will catch you later Jun 22 10:51:02 (hopefully) Jun 22 10:54:11 hrw: Are you sure? I just rebuild all from scratch and it works after mickey|fic fix Jun 22 10:55:31 kaktuspalme: on a 1.00 GHz AMD, it qemu runs VERY slow, slower than my (PXA255, 400 MHz) based devices Jun 22 10:55:35 ok then - I will not retest as I do not need it Jun 22 10:58:59 pH5: if the clock bit enables 0x20,0x21,0x23 and 0x2c and being 0x23 is a larger memory that you can access after pointing 0x20 to it, then maybe some other bit let's the chip update this 4kB large buffer automatically. Maybe this 4kB range is some history log buffer Jun 22 10:59:48 aloril: ^^^ mickey does a video, so I guess they announce something with a video PR event Jun 22 10:59:51 schurig: i've got an AMD X2 3800+ Jun 22 11:00:09 kaktuspalme: yea, that's something more decent :-) Jun 22 11:00:32 kaktuspalme: but it let's you code worse (slow computers tend to make the programmer spend more time on fast algorithms) Jun 22 11:00:39 :-) Jun 22 11:01:14 schurig: yes i know Jun 22 11:01:17 :) Jun 22 11:01:29 hmm, i can use an old pentium 3 with 450 Mhz :) Jun 22 11:01:54 i always try to make a program fast as i can at the moment Jun 22 11:02:07 I'm learning C now Jun 22 11:04:43 * aloril2 was about to say "guess: 5-6 hours until announce if today" Jun 22 11:06:55 i don't care about some announcement, just open that damn webshop Jun 22 11:07:49 how about I just type my cc details onto the channel here, and someone can bill me and send me a phone when it comes out Jun 22 11:07:55 I can trust you guys, right? Jun 22 11:08:00 no Jun 22 11:09:09 schurig: sometimes 0x20 is increased by 2*(number of words read from 0x23), sometimes it's increased by 2*(number of words read from 0x23)+2. I haven't figured out how this depends on the register setup of 0x00-0x07, but it doesn't seem as simple as a bit switch for that behaviour. Jun 22 11:09:19 ynezz: what if that announcement is just that (open web shop)? ;-) Jun 22 11:09:32 don't think so :p Jun 22 11:11:12 aloril2: *IF* this video is an announcement and *IF* I'd be responsible for PR in such a big company like FIC, *THEN* I'd announce more than just a web shop on a video Jun 22 11:13:27 schurig: sure, but it could still be part of it Jun 22 11:13:42 aloril2: yes, it could be mentioned Jun 22 11:13:56 ewon: please give me your cc defails Jun 22 11:14:10 ewon: and thanks, that I can order one Neo and you'll pay for that ! :-) Jun 22 11:14:57 all speculation of course until actual news, but else we have now ;-) Jun 22 11:17:03 can i Order a neo too? :D Jun 22 11:17:22 so the time has come Jun 22 11:17:51 do you think the neo will work in USA? Jun 22 11:17:59 i'll be in USA for two months Jun 22 11:18:08 no, the electrons go the wrong way in the USA Jun 22 11:18:19 heh Jun 22 11:18:41 It's GSM. it works anywhere there is GSM. That's the "global" part of GSM :-) Jun 22 11:18:49 rwhitby: well you should know that there are different bands all over the world Jun 22 11:18:49 rwhitby: only when looking at them from where you are Jun 22 11:19:15 but then you're standing upside-down anyway... ;) Jun 22 11:19:17 rwhitby: if you go with dual-band phone it won't work in usa Jun 22 11:19:32 please read the faq. of course its quad-band Jun 22 11:19:37 ok Jun 22 11:21:09 so i need it :) Jun 22 11:21:55 bedboi - it's quand band - so it will work on just about any gsm network anywhere in the world. Jun 22 11:22:29 I'm sure you can probably find some obscure operator in upper whoop whoop who uses a fifth band, but no-one ever uses their phone there. Jun 22 11:22:35 ahha Jun 22 11:22:53 I really need to get a neo. Jun 22 11:23:08 just before leaving italy Jun 22 11:37:04 Always be careful to speak in a monotone when using Neo in the US though ... otherwise the RIAA will classify it as copyrighted music and SoundExchange will collect performance royalties. ;-) Jun 22 11:55:15 On capacitive sensors: See http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/40-10/cap_sensors.html Jun 22 11:55:18 Fun. Jun 22 11:56:44 * ewon toys with his new RFID badge Jun 22 12:15:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Contacts/02]] Jun 22 12:16:42 Contacts/02 is nice Jun 22 13:01:07 hai folks Jun 22 13:57:28 * ewon snipes a passing tumbleweed Jun 22 13:58:42 zecke: Autobuilder timestamps 20070622102551 mean today 10:25 and 51 seconds? Jun 22 13:58:58 jo Jun 22 13:59:16 stefan_schmidt: probably Jun 22 13:59:46 So the re-open from http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=617 is already outdated? Jun 22 13:59:55 woglinde: I found shelter in Bjoerns appartment Jun 22 14:00:30 zecke hm Jun 22 14:00:39 let me ask leo what it means Jun 22 14:00:56 obdach,schutz Jun 22 14:01:04 Bauh�tte Jun 22 14:01:06 soso Jun 22 14:01:18 are you on the run? Jun 22 14:01:43 woglinde: I wonder if the Raster-Fahndung would find me here (well they scan irc logs...) Jun 22 14:03:44 counter Jun 22 14:03:44 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (75% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* in 2 days 10:58:06 (2.457±2.5 days) (1547;234) Jun 22 14:40:54 hi all Jun 22 14:41:03 hi all Jun 22 14:42:57 hihi! Jun 22 15:03:44 pH5 - Can you update the wiki appropiately (unless you already did)? Jun 22 15:06:39 Nothing built on the buildhost since two days?! Jun 22 15:08:41 I wonder what keeps Sean from making any kind of official statement about the state of the project... Jun 22 15:10:33 maybe he wants to say "GTABv04 available for order here, GTA02 specs are these, etc.." Jun 22 15:10:35 to quote one of the beloved former us-admin officials: there are the known knowns, the unknown knowns, the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns :P Jun 22 15:11:11 just let us know the knowns :) Jun 22 15:11:40 hi Jun 22 15:12:27 we should know that in 5 days Jun 22 15:13:20 aloril: in five days counting from perhaps any day now :)) Jun 22 15:13:43 counter Jun 22 15:13:43 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (75% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* in 2 days 10:23:06 (2.433±2.4 days) (1548;234) Jun 22 15:14:09 well, it depends whether you believe Sean, he said 2 days ago that announcement in less than week Jun 22 15:14:10 gamin: a dynamic counter => any day -1 ;) Jun 22 15:15:27 aloril: hmm, despite all his qualities, Sean is not really the man to look into the future *g* Jun 22 15:15:54 gamin: yeah, maybe that 90% trust for "there will be news" is too high Jun 22 15:17:30 aloril - it is a bit like the south-european "manana" when you ask for getting something done... Jun 22 15:17:47 * gamin wonders if Sean has spent lots of time in Greece... Jun 22 15:18:29 mañana is spanish Jun 22 15:18:38 koen: I know :) Jun 22 15:19:52 well, in past when it was said that there will announcement, it usually has happened (though I recall it being delayed for some days at one point) Jun 22 15:21:30 so there shall be an announcement in four days... Jun 22 15:22:01 I start to understand how Moses must have felt... Jun 22 15:23:16 sean is not good at estimation ^^ Jun 22 15:23:49 maybe we should nag harald instead Jun 22 15:23:53 well, they can always have announcement like "announcement has been delayed" ;-) Jun 22 15:24:21 gamin: lol ;) Jun 22 15:28:44 * aloril should probably adjust down probabilities for announce (and P1 too), waiting for today still Jun 22 15:32:14 Why is there no .desktop file for openmoko-today? Jun 22 15:37:06 Elrond: because it is autostarting instead of desktop Jun 22 15:38:07 hrw - I thought, openmoko-mainmenu was intended to be the startup thingy? Jun 22 15:43:45 Elrond: No, today is startup and mainmenu will be merged into mainmenu-applet. Jun 22 15:48:42 stefan_schmidt - Ahh. Jun 22 15:49:09 I'll keep mb-desktop-2 for a while ;-) Jun 22 15:50:01 So... finally... to program for bmc patrol is a nightmare... Jun 22 15:50:33 bmc patrol? Jun 22 15:50:58 a monitoring system Jun 22 15:51:08 Ahh. Jun 22 15:51:11 with it's own programming language (PSL) Jun 22 15:51:55 Yet another application defined programmling language? Jun 22 15:52:49 yes Jun 22 15:53:06 well - it is okay. Most of the time. but it can not do enough for me to be elegant ;) Jun 22 16:12:13 heh http://consumerist.com/consumer/early-termination-fees/175-fee-if-you-cancel-iphone-even-though-the-phones-cost-isnt-subsidized-271356.php Jun 22 16:18:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Contacts/02]] Jun 22 16:20:39 Last time I checked, only the dialer worked. How far has that come since then? Jun 22 16:22:45 Elrond: I've put some information into svn doc/. Ideally, I'd like to convert the wiki page to the same structure. The register descriptions should really be separated from the packet protocol. Jun 22 16:24:38 * SpeedEvil ponders. Jun 22 16:24:48 The 'rough seas' subject was a clue. Jun 22 16:24:55 The next product will be a lifeboat! Jun 22 16:51:19 SpeedEvil: but without gps ;) Jun 22 17:01:51 counter Jun 22 17:01:51 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (75% for P1<=2007-07-07) 90% for *news* in 2 days 09:29:02 (2.395±2.4 days) (1549;234) Jun 22 17:40:11 Is it just me or does other people also want to shout out parry! parry! when they see counter ? :D Jun 22 17:54:02 counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in Jun 22 17:54:02 aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in Jun 22 17:55:28 it says NEWS there Jun 22 17:56:32 what's up? Jun 22 18:04:56 just getting slightly more pessimistic (about no news) Jun 22 18:16:27 (or have I missed something?) Jun 22 18:17:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ/nl]] Jun 22 18:19:44 aloril: counter Jun 22 18:19:45 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 2 days 08:50:05 (2.368±2.4 days) (1550;235) Jun 22 18:20:20 hmm, would be nice, today I learned that C65 doesn't like rain very much:( Jun 22 18:29:13 ~lart travel industry Jun 22 18:29:13 * apt whips out a hot clue gun and makes sure that travel industry is stuck to the floor Jun 22 18:29:21 lol that one fits well Jun 22 18:33:06 pH5, Elrond: http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/feed/armv4t/base/sphyrna-console_0.0+svn20070622-r0_armv4t.ipk Jun 22 18:34:32 koen: fast! Jun 22 18:34:49 * koen <- fastest crosscompiler in the west Jun 22 18:34:53 :D Jun 22 18:37:23 koen - You're crazy ;) Jun 22 18:37:29 re Jun 22 18:38:01 pH5: I did cheat a bit by doing -c unpack, svn up, -c package_write Jun 22 18:38:26 ;) Jun 22 18:38:57 he elrond Jun 22 18:39:18 time to find out if 'heroes' is any good Jun 22 18:39:36 Hi woglinde Jun 22 18:39:54 counter Jun 22 18:39:54 Elrond: sphyrna already locked to 8 satellites and gave you your position with only to 2 cm difference? Jun 22 18:39:55 http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (65% for P1<=2007-07-07) 70% for *news* in 2 days 08:40:00 (2.361±2.4 days) (1551;235) Jun 22 18:40:55 schurig_home - 2cm? Sooo much? ;o) sphyrna can do 1nm resulution! ;o) Jun 22 18:41:51 * SpeedEvil ponders OpenMoko, and the amstrad E3 http://www.amstrad.com/products/emailers/e3.html Jun 22 18:41:51 Elrond: no one plans to send a GPS guided rocket into Osama's left nose hole Jun 22 18:42:00 lol, and that's without having figured out the chip yet. imagine the possibilities once we understand it :) Jun 22 18:43:14 my garmin gps 60 get accurate to around 3 meters, shamfull really! Jun 22 18:43:46 schurig_home - We want to do seismological analysis using the neo! ;) Jun 22 18:44:22 The large amount of inaccuracy is due to ionospheric uncertainty. Jun 22 18:45:03 SpeedEvil - I know. Jun 22 18:46:25 Interesting possibilities arise if you have a global database. Jun 22 18:46:31 isn't there some kind of ionospheric weather forecast provided by global locate? Jun 22 18:46:33 For example - log a position, or a track. Jun 22 18:46:39 No - AIUI Jun 22 18:46:59 then when you get home, and can download data for that time-period, the data gets better Jun 22 18:47:12 From say 3m error to 1m Jun 22 18:47:23 Or if you can download GPRS Jun 22 18:47:35 We could use the hammerhead to acquire such info, right? Jun 22 18:47:45 In limited cases. Jun 22 18:47:58 We pretty much need a stationary neo, with a good view of the sky. Jun 22 18:48:06 Or at least a decent lock. Jun 22 18:48:15 Yeah, I assumed that. Jun 22 18:48:19 Neo on the roof. ;o) Jun 22 18:48:26 This could in principle be every neo on charge Jun 22 18:48:54 (last sunday "my" neo was on the roof of a car. usb cable through the door to the laptop. ;o) Jun 22 18:49:08 they'd contribute the geometric inaccuracies they are recieving. Jun 22 18:49:14 (the people on the parking place looked very strange, I guess ;o) ) Jun 22 18:49:32 SpeedEvil: no, the answer is DGPS Jun 22 18:49:36 Location Games are a must Jun 22 18:49:43 DGPS isn't the same thing. Jun 22 18:50:06 DGPS gives a rough correction for an area. Jun 22 18:50:14 SpeedEvil: relative local to your position (200 Meters) determine the RELATIVE velocities to all satellites in sight and compare this to with their known position Jun 22 18:50:26 SpeedEvil: they can then create a correction factor for each satellite Jun 22 18:50:51 Yes - if you can have a local unit to correct, that's the gold standard. Jun 22 18:50:57 SpeedEvil: and device where you have access to the rel vel per sat can utilize this info and create better accurancy Jun 22 18:51:09 actually, the HammerHead chip would allow for this Jun 22 18:51:31 If you can synthesise a local unit, through accurate real-time modelling of the ionosphere, then you can potentially get differential accuracy in much wider places. Jun 22 18:51:31 s/200 Meters/200 Kilometers/ :-) Jun 22 18:51:59 SpeedEvil: here in germany the government and some universities have those stations Jun 22 18:52:07 SpeedEvil: it's partually even free Jun 22 18:52:13 Yes, and some of them have the data downloadable. Jun 22 18:52:16 Some do not. Jun 22 18:52:24 And many that I've found delay the data. Jun 22 18:52:28 SpeedEvil: they broadcast this in 2m band, per GSM and also they have web servers with a low-level protocol to access this Jun 22 18:52:50 per GSM? Jun 22 18:52:58 SpeedEvil: yes, per GSM Jun 22 18:53:15 Do you mean over GSM? And if so, in what manner. Jun 22 18:53:17 SpeedEvil: GSM has kind of time-slots, and one time-slot is reserved for this Jun 22 18:53:24 /part Jun 22 18:54:02 It's not global though. A global free real-time model would be nice. Jun 22 18:54:19 In some places there will be better solutions. Jun 22 18:57:17 schurig_home: I don't suppose that you've got docs as to how it's broadcast by the GSM providers, and if the Neo radio can output the information? Jun 22 18:57:43 SpeedEvil: http://www.adv-online.de/extdeu/broker.jsp?uMen=67770f15-8e71-3c01-e1f3-351ec0023010 Jun 22 18:58:26 It's in some wierd gibberish :) /me wanders off to google-translate. Jun 22 18:58:44 "as format the international standard RTCM SC-104, Version 2.3 is used. The data is transfer in a secondly frequency" Jun 22 19:00:20 they do this with area-correction-factors and also with virtual-reference-stations, whatever that means Jun 22 19:01:11 This is not over the GSM band though Jun 22 19:01:30 SpeedEvil: than your translation is broken Jun 22 19:01:32 It's another radio, which is not in the neo Jun 22 19:01:42 I'm referring to the originating standard Jun 22 19:01:48 SpeedEvil: open the original page, even when you don't know german, you can Ctrl-F for "GSM" and find it Jun 22 19:01:59 SpeedEvil: the original standard just defines the data format Jun 22 19:04:21 SpeedEvil: the over protocol is NTRIP, that works via TCP/IP, so you need a GPRS connection Jun 22 19:04:26 I don't read that as broadcast - I read that as dialup, or GPRS Jun 22 19:04:40 SpeedEvil: right, I'd do the same Jun 22 19:04:43 Right - it's not broadcast over special timeslots Jun 22 19:04:57 It's just internet. Jun 22 19:05:15 SpeedEvil: but the first version is NOT internet, it's the low-level GSM protocol Jun 22 19:06:05 GSM is not just talk and sms, there are other data types there as well, e.g. operator initiated reconfigurations of GSM equipment. And, yes, this DGPS data Jun 22 19:07:00 Yes, I know there are other data types. However, that bit - in specifying a cost at the bottom, implies to me that this is not a broadcast service Jun 22 19:07:44 SpeedEvil: for example, here is another german page: http://www.lverma.nrw.de/produkte/raumbezug/sapos/dienste/HEPS.htm Jun 22 19:08:00 SpeedEvil: here they say that they use RTCM SC-104, Version 2.3 for GSM and RTCM SC-104, Version 3.0 for NTRIP Jun 22 19:09:39 2.3/3 as I understand it is simply a data format Jun 22 19:10:05 It also requires some way to insert it as a GSM message of some type. Jun 22 19:10:16 yes, they use different data formats for the GSM transfer and for the GPRS/INTERNET/TCP/IP/NTRIP transfer Jun 22 19:10:21 And a standard for that, and a GSM modem, which can recieve it. Jun 22 19:10:52 And communicate that reception to software Jun 22 19:11:11 SpeedEvil: I don't think that a normal GSM modem can receive it, you need to access to the raw data frames Jun 22 19:12:15 SpeedEvil: but then again, I can be utterly wrong :-) Jun 22 19:12:27 Indeed. I'm not saying that it's not broadcast, or available in many places worldwide, at various delays and costs, just that one standard open ionospheric current weather model would be nice. Jun 22 19:13:22 SpeedEvil: I'm not sure, but I think this correction-factor devices, if realtime-operated, will also help if the US switches the jitter on again Jun 22 19:13:26 Which could use a variety of sources to generate a best-guess current model. Jun 22 19:13:33 SpeedEvil: a raw isosphere mathematical model won't do that Jun 22 19:14:05 No, you consult the model, and ask it 'send me the correction factors for the satellites I have in veiw' Jun 22 19:14:14 SpeedEvil: if you are a radio amateur or visit their websites, they have actually isotrophic forecasts there, not sure if you can use it Jun 22 19:14:29 s/veiw/view/ Jun 22 19:14:29 SpeedEvil meant: No, you consult the model, and ask it 'send me the correction factors for the satellites I have in view' Jun 22 19:15:01 SpeedEvil: hmm, but they cannot cope with sudden outburst of sun-wind Jun 22 19:15:13 a reference station can Jun 22 19:15:29 Realtime measurements of this sort could actually be used if the US stops updating the GPS satellites, and they go into drifting clock mode. Jun 22 19:16:01 You'd admittedly need to do a little more work, and require an internet connection to get a position. Jun 22 19:16:47 Somewhere I found a link on minimum specs for what happens if the errors are not corrected by the people running GPS. Jun 22 19:19:19 The latest satelites even have a 'fallback to intersatelite positioning' mode Jun 22 19:19:56 which if there are enough of that sort up can keep themselves into a moderately coherent set, with comparatively modest positioning degradations. Jun 22 20:20:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]] Jun 22 20:26:02 SpeedEvil: in your contacts/02, I would lower the up/down buttons. Usually people like to have the important things in the middle of the screen, and if the name/number of an important contact is larger, the up/down buttons would be in the way Jun 22 20:26:32 SpeedEvil: for me it's not clear while at the top-left the telephone symbol is glowing. Is a call currently active? Jun 22 20:26:49 contacts/02? Jun 22 20:26:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Contacts/02 Jun 22 20:27:24 Not mine Jun 22 20:27:31 I just did minor formatting Jun 22 20:28:04