**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 28 02:59:57 2007 Jun 28 03:00:01 sorry Nikon D80 Jun 28 03:00:48 or maybe FIC build a camera phone module you can add on Jun 28 03:01:24 something like the Zaurus SL-6000 expansion sled could be cool Jun 28 03:01:50 GTA01 + Nikon D80 = worlds first 10MP camera phone Jun 28 03:02:16 lol Jun 28 03:03:04 As far as i know, now 3G network will be suit for Video phone, then a DC would be more important Jun 28 03:03:09 kill your battery though because the D80 usb port will want to get power from the phone Jun 28 03:04:06 SunZhiyong: the neo doesn't have, and won't have(in GTA02) any 3G support Jun 28 03:04:52 yeah no wifi,dc,3g Jun 28 03:05:39 lol, linux_galore re: "world's first 10MP camera phone" Jun 28 03:06:04 bet someone will velcro a computer unit to a 01 just for fun Jun 28 03:06:37 o, so sorry to hear that, but i hope some further version would support them, dc, 3g... Jun 28 03:06:55 SunZhiyong: 3g on the 02 Jun 28 03:07:07 linux_galore: no... wifi on the 02 Jun 28 03:07:15 unless I missed something drastic Jun 28 03:07:46 summatusmentis: yeah but by next year there wont be any 2.5 networks running Jun 28 03:07:48 see you to morrow Jun 28 03:07:52 :) Jun 28 03:08:15 linux_galore: you really think it'll take until next year? Jun 28 03:08:20 humm... why I haven't received mails? Jun 28 03:08:38 they're not adding terribly much, I'm assuming there won't be any more hardware issues Jun 28 03:08:51 summatusmentis: I live in Australia and we have updated to 3G already and were totally retarded when it comes to that type of stuff Jun 28 03:08:54 what 2.5g means? Jun 28 03:09:23 SunZhiyong: EDGE, I think Jun 28 03:09:43 or for CDMA 1x Jun 28 03:10:01 cdma 1x Jun 28 03:10:11 we have turned it off here Jun 28 03:10:29 so everyone with an old cdma phone now has a brick Jun 28 03:10:35 linux_galore: there are still parts of the US where that's the only option availabel Jun 28 03:10:38 available* Jun 28 03:10:43 how long ago was the announcement made? Jun 28 03:11:09 ravan: not terribly long Jun 28 03:11:16 ravan: couple hours? Jun 28 03:11:25 summatusmentis: i still didn't get the mail Jun 28 03:11:34 its on the wiki Jun 28 03:11:54 such as w-cdma, that right? Jun 28 03:11:58 i found it in the archives Jun 28 03:11:59 I've been watching the archives of the mail(on openmoko.org) Jun 28 03:12:10 SunZhiyong: w-cdma is 3G, afaik Jun 28 03:12:21 maybe there it takes a while before queue clears or there is graylisting or ... Jun 28 03:13:18 i am sorry, i am layman in mobile phone communication. Jun 28 03:13:24 well next year they start installing wimax here in Australia for rural internet access Jun 28 03:13:48 $3 billion dollar contract Jun 28 03:13:59 linux_galore, Out of curiosity, who is "they", Telus, BigPond, some other actually nice people, etc.? Jun 28 03:14:20 paulproteus: its a conglomerate Optus and a few others Jun 28 03:14:34 * summatusmentis wishes the US would step up Jun 28 03:14:57 paulproteus: Telstra lost out Jun 28 03:15:08 although I dare say they will have a hand in it Jun 28 03:16:06 kind of funny that I did awake at the time mail happened without any alarm or knowledge about it (and continued to sleep after quick look) Jun 28 03:16:07 Optus already have a complete nation wide fibre network Jun 28 03:16:38 ugh, I need to get out of the US, get some culture, and faster intarwebz Jun 28 03:17:00 counter_msg counter not updated yet Jun 28 03:17:00 aloril changed counter prefix message to counter not updated yet Jun 28 03:17:39 summatusmentis: when Australia was found to be one position before the US for network access our government panicked lol Jun 28 03:17:55 summatusmentis: if that doesnt say something Jun 28 03:18:02 etc Jun 28 03:18:12 linux_galore: before? as in better than? Jun 28 03:18:16 yes Jun 28 03:18:33 in the list we are just before the USA Jun 28 03:18:39 it wasn't that much of (P1 counter) ;-) Jun 28 03:18:55 (2 days) Jun 28 03:18:56 anyway Im off Jun 28 03:19:42 08:45 < linux_galore> paulproteus: Telstra lost out Jun 28 03:19:47 08:45 < linux_galore> paulproteus: Telstra lost out Jun 28 03:19:52 * paulproteus blinks Jun 28 03:21:00 technically Telstra never loses out because 95% of POTS are on their network Jun 28 03:21:31 but in this case it broadband Jun 28 03:21:39 it is* Jun 28 03:23:26 http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,21935040-5013041,00.html Jun 28 03:23:51 http://www.newsit.com.au/story/0,24897,21935875-5013041,00.html Jun 28 03:24:04 the consortium is called OPEL Jun 28 03:24:55 anyway I have to get back to the factory Jun 28 03:36:48 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz New Oceans Jun 28 03:37:05 :) Jun 28 03:37:07 so there is $50 discount for both Neo1973 and hackers lunchbox Jun 28 03:37:09 counter? Jun 28 03:37:09 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: counter not updated yet 06:41:23 (0.279±0.3 days) (1628;241) Jun 28 03:37:11 yeah Jun 28 03:37:14 50$ Jun 28 03:37:15 now mail got trough ;-) Jun 28 03:37:27 i have just read that email as well Jun 28 03:37:35 rd_: hackers lunchbox was supposedly $200, now its $150 more Jun 28 03:37:55 so.. combination is now $100 less, I think I'll go for combination now Jun 28 03:41:18 announce mail still not trough here ;-) Jun 28 03:45:52 hmmm... pondering about this "GTA02 (AKA: The Mass Market Neo 1973) is on schedule to go on sale in October. It will have the following new hardware components:" Jun 28 03:46:19 are they going to mass market that or is that still same hardware as mass market, but marketed only for developers? Jun 28 03:46:48 (script) openmoko-announce: Sean Moss-Pultz [openmoko-announce] New Oceans Jun 28 03:46:48 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz New Oceans Jun 28 03:47:06 going to keep massmarket separate ... Jun 28 03:47:06 am I reading it wrong, or is there no rebate on GTA02 for people who buy GTA01, just a discount on the GTA01 purchase of $50. Jun 28 03:47:12 aloril: where in the world physically are you? Jun 28 03:47:24 Finland Jun 28 03:47:45 * aloril indeed did get community mailing twice Jun 28 03:48:23 rwhitby: yes, it sounds like that Jun 28 03:49:13 took 3h for announce mail to arrive here Jun 28 03:49:38 I got one at 7am local time and another copy at 10am local time (GMT+9:30) Jun 28 03:49:48 actually 10:50am Jun 28 03:50:00 almost 4 hours lag on the second copy Jun 28 03:50:13 got both quite close to each other (10minute difference) Jun 28 03:50:36 but their date is about 4h apart Jun 28 03:50:52 Is there going to be an Openmoko presence at OSCON? Jun 28 03:50:52 pbx: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 28 03:51:00 Clever. Jun 28 03:52:01 rwhitby: that is correct Jun 28 03:52:02 rwhitby: I think sean mailed it twice Jun 28 03:52:09 rwhitby there seemed to be a smtpd-fuckup which resulted in mails queueing up somehow... hopefully fixed now Jun 28 03:52:43 yes. sean didnt recieve his own mail for the same error and tried again Jun 28 03:53:12 * pjz read it from the archive after it was posted here Jun 28 03:53:14 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 05:31:42 +0800 (00:31 EEST) Jun 28 03:53:16 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:20:13 +0800 (04:20 EEST) Jun 28 03:53:20 * rwhitby had never heard of a "Lincoln Log" until googling it just then. Jun 28 03:53:30 So... any human response? OSCON, Portland OR USA, July 23-27? :) Jun 28 03:54:08 rwhitby: how old are you? Jun 28 03:54:17 nevermind, I don't want to know Jun 28 03:54:17 39 Jun 28 03:54:21 oh, really? Jun 28 03:54:29 and never heard of lincoln logs? hrm Jun 28 03:54:34 don't live in the US Jun 28 03:54:38 oh Jun 28 03:54:43 makes sense then, I guess Jun 28 03:54:48 * paulproteus chuckles Jun 28 03:54:53 No Lincoln Logs down under ... Jun 28 03:54:53 less of a log-cabin tradition elsewhere :) Jun 28 03:54:56 i've never heard of lincoln log too Jun 28 03:55:00 :D Jun 28 03:55:05 roh: is that October release marketed for "Mom and Dad" or is it marketed for developers? Jun 28 03:55:46 so the current plan is to save my pennies and get a GTA02 Advanced Jun 28 03:56:03 * aloril googled it too, never seen them here either Jun 28 03:56:03 Grand Theft Audiovox Jun 28 03:56:08 (script) openmoko-announce: Sean Moss-Pultz [openmoko-announce] New Oceans Jun 28 03:56:32 twice in announce list too it seems ;-) Jun 28 03:56:46 cuz, after all, I've waited 6 months, another 4 is no big deal Jun 28 03:57:04 pjz, FWIW I don't feel that way. (-: Jun 28 03:57:27 roh: or should I ask at mailing list about that (October release for developers or "Mom and Dad")? or maybe its too early .. Jun 28 03:57:51 pjz, the question is that you can get GTA02 in Oct or GTA02 will get delayed :) Jun 28 03:58:33 well, at least we know it won't be earlier than October (except maybe for betatest) Jun 28 03:58:58 plus, nothing to say that the July date won't get slipped too Jun 28 04:00:01 "If it were easy, you know who would have done this long before." - is that supposed to refer to MSFT? Jun 28 04:00:03 yay! life on the mailing list! Jun 28 04:00:07 but mostly: I can't justify $500 and then $450 4 months later Jun 28 04:00:08 pjz: yeah, though they only need to get "ordering" in order Jun 28 04:00:45 aloril: until they find the next hardware bug. or have another parts shortage. Jun 28 04:00:54 paulproteus: or maybe he is referring to himself or ... in mobile world it would mean Nokia I think Jun 28 04:00:56 as soon as they can order, i'll buy three. :P Jun 28 04:01:05 aloril: or find that they can't ship international for some reason. Jun 28 04:01:15 aloril: i would think refering to motorola. but then again, i used to work for them. Jun 28 04:01:16 aloril: or just not to the US. Jun 28 04:01:20 lol, juri_, why three? Jun 28 04:01:47 pjz: parts shortage should not be problem, they already have 400 made ;-) Jun 28 04:01:48 paul: stable, unstable, and broken. i'm setting up as a value added reseller. ;) Jun 28 04:02:34 reason I think Nokia is that they already have partially FLOSS project (just not phone) Jun 28 04:02:48 aloril, Right, that makes some sense. Jun 28 04:02:53 if i have my way, i'll be ordering in the hundred lot by year's end. Jun 28 04:03:03 So anyone want my 512MB microSD cards? (-; Jun 28 04:03:25 I'm thinking since you can buy 2GiB cards for under USD20, no point in keeping those smaller ones.... Jun 28 04:03:31 oh, the N770 was on woot for $180 or something the other day Jun 28 04:04:25 pjz, from where do you get $500 for gta01b_v4? Jun 28 04:04:37 jeddy3: Advanced kit Jun 28 04:04:47 The Neo Advanced will be Jun 28 04:04:47 $450. Jun 28 04:05:05 hmm? "P.S. It seems that in all this restructuring, someone has been eavesdropping on us. It could be a spy. Or it could be a ninja. Only time will tell. So stay tuned ;-)" Jun 28 04:05:23 aloril, Seriously, I haven no idea what the heck that means. Jun 28 04:05:30 yeah $450 Jun 28 04:05:58 its still $100 less than equivalent thing was originally ($350 + $200) Jun 28 04:06:02 aloril i cannot definitively answer that question... that will depend on your mom and dad propably. but yes, it should be a massmarket-device with a working userinterface. at least thats the goal Jun 28 04:06:31 and we know how good we are at reaching goals on time Jun 28 04:07:07 so I'm looking forward to it Jun 28 04:07:14 roh: ah, so plan is to sell trough carriers at that time: "through multiple channels" Jun 28 04:07:52 just in time to enter the iPhone Wars fray Jun 28 04:08:08 roh: though I guess you can't say that yet explicitly ;-) Jun 28 04:08:29 b/c everyone and their brother is going to do an iPhone clone, I'm sure Jun 28 04:08:46 expect to see multiple touchscreen-only phones coming out Jun 28 04:08:48 * aloril doesn't believe it would really be software ready at that time, but we will see .. Jun 28 04:09:02 aloril, Me neither; we'll see... Jun 28 04:09:19 Maybe the moonlight guys will step up Jun 28 04:09:36 though running .NET on my phone kinda scares me Jun 28 04:10:03 pjz, ? Jun 28 04:10:38 paulproteus: did you miss the thread that's the mono guys who rewrote microsoft's Silverlight thing saying they're interested in the Neo platform? Jun 28 04:10:49 pjz, Erm, I guess I did. Jun 28 04:10:56 I hope the MSFT contribute to mono, then.' Jun 28 04:11:22 paulproteus: Subject: An introduction Jun 28 04:11:47 or maybe the JavaFX guys will step up Jun 28 04:11:58 since they demo'd it Jun 28 04:12:59 actually .NET wouldn't be too bad; means apps in lots of languages could all share a VM Jun 28 04:16:04 so Sean seems to only get part of this opensource thing Jun 28 04:16:21 he gets the part about the stuff Jun 28 04:16:41 but seems to not get some of the parts that are about the people Jun 28 04:17:21 like: if you want them to follow, you must lead. And to lead, you must speak. So if you want them to follow, you must speak. Jun 28 04:17:33 did anyone catch when he said his next update would be? Jun 28 04:18:07 'I will update you Jun 28 04:18:09 all after we stabilize GTA02.' Jun 28 04:18:38 in other words... 'More pronouncements from On High in 4 months' Jun 28 04:22:41 pjz: umm.. they don't know yet what will be in those devices? Jun 28 04:23:48 (script) planet: Harald "LaF0rge" Welte: An update from the OpenMoko world http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/28#20070628-openmoko_update Jun 28 04:26:37 aloril: I thought they had the hardware finalized? no? Jun 28 04:27:14 pjz: for devices next year: doubt they yet know it for sure ;-) Jun 28 04:27:33 pjz: no doubt they are developing, testing though Jun 28 04:27:54 or it could be that they are negotiating for some parts still Jun 28 04:31:55 GTA02 is due out in October Jun 28 04:32:01 not next year Jun 28 04:32:58 pjz: ah, but that was told already ;-) Jun 28 04:33:43 read again: "We have three more mobile devices planned for next year (not including GTA02). During the next few months we will be adding serious resources to both FIC and OpenMoko to support these projects. I will update you all after we stabilize GTA02." Jun 28 04:34:17 its about future projects next year *"(not including GTA02)"* Jun 28 04:37:05 sure Jun 28 04:37:53 my point was just that he plans to ignore this community he helped create for, oh, at least another 3-4 months Jun 28 04:38:19 well, 'until GTA02 is stabilize', however long that takes Jun 28 04:39:03 it's a real shame that v1 won't be out before iPhone; they'll lose a whole bunch of v1 sales. Jun 28 04:39:09 yup Jun 28 04:39:14 they win on pricepoint though Jun 28 04:39:25 though they lose on features Jun 28 04:39:31 lack of wifi is a huuuge feature disadvantage Jun 28 04:39:39 which is probably why they're pushing on GTA02 so hard Jun 28 04:39:41 yeah, that's what I hear from everyone I mention moko to. Jun 28 04:42:58 there's going to be some interesting networking challenges inherent in this phone Jun 28 04:43:19 pjz: didn't read it that way, for example: "Sometime later today or early tomorrow we're going to make another announcement asking for some advice." Jun 28 04:43:28 just simple stuff like where your default route is is going to be interesting Jun 28 04:43:43 aloril: oh, I see. Jun 28 04:43:46 pjz: I think that referred specifically on new devices Jun 28 04:44:33 Jun 28 04:44:33 O Jun 28 04:44:41 * aloril thinks it makes sense not to talk too early about things that are not yet know (for example negotiations between FIC and another company are still under way about parts) Jun 28 04:47:19 aloril: I dunno. Saying "we're talking to soemone about part X" seems okay Jun 28 04:47:36 aloril: caveat it all you want; some info is better than no info. Jun 28 04:47:53 other company might not like it .. Jun 28 04:48:13 aloril: so don't name names Jun 28 04:48:22 now saying "we are testing this component" doesn't sound problematic from that viewpoint Jun 28 04:48:46 pjz: well, just saying what part might name a company ;-) Jun 28 04:49:20 LaF0rge: I just read your blog entry on planet.openmoko - and yes I *feel* your pain as I'm currently living in Taiwan also Jun 28 04:49:24 aloril: or even 'we've got 80% of the components, another 10% due in in a week, and the last 10% after that" Jun 28 04:49:52 it's a culture shock for westerners to put it mildly ;-) Jun 28 04:50:11 kind of makes me wonder why they didn't set up offices in .de then Jun 28 04:50:54 LaF0rge: funny thing is, I came direct from Japan to here and that *heightened* the culture shock ;-) Jun 28 04:51:12 as you know, to call Japan efficient is an understatement ;-) Jun 28 04:51:39 * duffyd has to grab some local tucker Jun 28 04:54:47 it's definitely nice to see such support for openmoko in fic, though Jun 28 04:56:51 weird that taiwan has fewer offerings than abroad though! Jun 28 04:57:01 (maybe it has to do with china->taiwan importing?) Jun 28 04:59:38 just read the announcement :) Jun 28 04:59:58 that's some seriously cool stuff happening :D Jun 28 05:01:45 psi - indeed! Jun 28 05:01:54 morning all ;) Jun 28 05:02:05 * mattzerah just read it too - cant wait for wifi in october :) Jun 28 05:16:19 w00t! Jun 28 05:16:53 man that phone is gonna be just as expensive as the iPhone Jun 28 05:17:11 does almost as much and you're not stuck with at&t for 2 years ;) Jun 28 05:17:35 in this area AT&T has the best and fastest coverage Jun 28 05:17:41 so no problem with that Jun 28 05:18:05 HSPDA all over here Jun 28 05:18:46 "no problem with that" Jun 28 05:19:12 for got one word Jun 28 05:19:14 then you probably don't have a problem with sticking to proprietary crap, either Jun 28 05:20:32 not wise to assume Jun 28 05:41:32 mornin' Jun 28 05:41:55 morining Jun 28 05:42:01 counter Jun 28 05:42:06 announcment's out! Jun 28 05:42:06 :D Jun 28 05:42:24 happycube: yeah i know, just checking what aloril has to say Jun 28 05:42:36 ;) Jun 28 05:42:40 !counter Jun 28 05:42:47 speechless, aparently Jun 28 05:42:50 hmm... Jun 28 05:42:53 Sup3rkiddo: aloril "buffer overflow" :D Jun 28 05:43:06 gamin: :P Jun 28 05:43:10 counter not updated yet 05:38:31 (0.235±0.2 days) (1628;241) Jun 28 05:43:12 or null pointer exception... Jun 28 05:43:19 *g* Jun 28 05:43:40 ah, you had extra space ;-) Jun 28 05:43:49 well, 300$ is nice, 450$ for the GTA2 is too much Jun 28 05:43:51 anyway will there be a discount if i buy the neo now, during the october release Jun 28 05:43:55 counter Jun 28 05:44:03 * Sup3rkiddo distributes beer to all Jun 28 05:44:07 Sup3rkiddo: they reduced to 300$ Jun 28 05:44:26 RTFA :) Jun 28 05:44:43 gamin: oo...its there in the announcement ? Jun 28 05:45:12 The delays have been expensive for us and annoying for you. We've decided that instead of setting up a complicated return or tracking system to remember who gets a discount for GTA02, we going to give you _all_ a discount on GTA01. We're going to sell the Neo Base for $300. The Neo Advanced will be $450. Jun 28 05:45:42 gamin: i believe its for the developer release now? Jun 28 05:45:44 Sup3rkiddo: with all the many words I missed that too on the first read... Jun 28 05:46:01 yep Jun 28 05:46:50 plus impertinent 70$ for the car holder. Jun 28 05:47:00 i meant if i buy a GTA01, how much discount will i get for the final release? Jun 28 05:47:00 I'll get one from ebay for 10$ Jun 28 05:47:32 now its "begging for allowance hike" period of the year Jun 28 05:47:39 Sup3rkiddo: no discount for the final release, because they dropped the price from 350 to 300 for everybody Jun 28 05:48:13 gamin: ah ok..i didnt see the 50$ difference Jun 28 05:48:39 Sup3rkiddo: you are really a lazy reader ;P Jun 28 05:48:41 counter_msg (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 28 05:48:41 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 28 05:48:43 counter Jun 28 05:48:43 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 06:11:12 (11.258±1.0 days) (1631;241) Jun 28 05:49:08 gamin: :P yup Jun 28 05:49:44 ok now what was the trick to convert currencies again? Jun 28 05:51:41 sup3r: google will do it Jun 28 05:51:55 giving total 80% for that week, dunno if that is too high, but .. Jun 28 05:52:07 type "300 dollars in rubles" or whatever Jun 28 05:52:10 any comments on probabilities in counter page? Jun 28 05:52:11 do I see it right that you reduced from 1GB flash as planned to 256MB? Jun 28 05:52:35 (in the gta02) Jun 28 05:52:51 nobody planned 1GB flash Jun 28 05:53:22 how much do you have in gta01? 64MB? Jun 28 05:53:40 128 Jun 28 05:53:59 hmm. i got two oceans announce emails Jun 28 05:54:03 but I wonder what that crap of 2x 512 SD cards is good for Jun 28 05:54:04 (background: I had a p990i from SE and it was a PITA since it wasn't able to have the web browser and my addressbook online in the same time...) Jun 28 05:54:38 nobody wants to fiddle around with these things. Jun 28 05:55:27 gamin: at least not as long as I have to remove the SIM-Card to reach the slot as I have seen it once... Jun 28 05:56:01 if I'd want another card, I'd buy it myself since it would have more memory on it Jun 28 05:56:25 haha, GPL3 launch date same as iPhone launch date Jun 28 05:56:46 Rince: the GTA02 flash was specced as 1GBit (which is 256MBytes) Jun 28 05:57:11 (flash chips are specced in bits, not bytes) Jun 28 05:57:20 rwhitby: oh, sorry then, that was my mistake Jun 28 05:57:21 thanks ;) Jun 28 05:57:44 it was a common mistake for anyone who hasn't dealt with flash hardware chip specs before :-) Jun 28 05:57:59 Hmm, isn't it 1Gbi == 128Mbytes? Divided by eight? Jun 28 05:58:34 pjz: "he plans to ignore this community he helped create for, oh, at least another 3-4 months" is a bit harsh Jun 28 05:58:48 GPLv3 vs. iPhone! They Must Fight! Jun 28 05:58:57 rwhitby: he misread announcement Jun 28 05:59:09 rwhitby: see following discussion Jun 28 06:00:03 I think people too easily ascribe something to bad intentions which can just as easily be explained by not enough hours in the day. Jun 28 06:00:40 *nod* Jun 28 06:00:46 between that and the blog they basically have a choice between outreach and cutting the red tape they need to get the things out Jun 28 06:01:38 the fact that you see blogs and svn checkins says volumes more than what you get from any other company about a new device Jun 28 06:01:49 what is the customs pay up for mobile phone in the EU? Jun 28 06:02:09 gamin: with support for a new contract: everything between 0 ¤ and 150¤ Jun 28 06:02:10 yup Jun 28 06:02:17 * aloril nods to rwhitby Jun 28 06:02:28 without support: between 200 and 350-400¤, depending on what you want Jun 28 06:02:38 we had a decent idea of gta02 before any announcement ;) Jun 28 06:03:14 you pay 800¤ für the latest N95 from Nokia Jun 28 06:03:38 even the simple nokia 6103 is $199 direct Jun 28 06:03:47 I'd trust an SVN checking more than an email announcement of specs any day :-) Jun 28 06:03:50 :) Jun 28 06:03:52 for the "quite common" nokia E70 you pay 500¤ Jun 28 06:03:54 s/checking/checkin/ Jun 28 06:03:54 rwhitby meant: I'd trust an SVN checkin more than an email announcement of specs any day :-) Jun 28 06:04:03 especially since they matched Jun 28 06:04:54 gamin: if you want a good overview: www.momp.de is a quite cheap but good online-store. you check all mobiles with or without carrier-support and can diff the prices Jun 28 06:05:39 http://www.momp.de/handypreise_ohne.php (full price) vs. http://www.momp.de/handypreise_mit.php (reduced price - depending on the agreement with the carrier) Jun 28 06:06:40 Psi_: 2 announce mails was sent, there was some hiccup Jun 28 06:07:15 Rince: another datapoint, prototypes normally cost 2x the cost of a consumer device (due to the small production scales), so that OpenMoko are selling them for so little is a *massive* discount compared to other manufacturers Jun 28 06:07:41 Rince: of course, that 2x is in the closed-device world ;) Jun 28 06:07:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[UI_Improvements]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jun 28 06:07:47 Stephmw: I know that ;) gamin just asked for prices Jun 28 06:07:56 Rince: just giving ya more ammo :) Jun 28 06:08:02 eventually counter is right, this time about announcement (lets hope its right about P1 too) Jun 28 06:08:41 I am still thinking about buyting a gta01_v04 and waiting for the umts models then. Or so ;) Jun 28 06:09:15 anyway, yet another datapoint that its better to add 1 day to estimated news date ;-) Jun 28 06:10:42 ~hail counter Jun 28 06:10:43 * apt bows down to counter and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Jun 28 06:12:03 what a timing; I'm away July 4-8 :D Jun 28 06:12:17 (but that's just becuase right now I have an very old blackberry since my p990i got lost somehow and I have no other mobile right now) Jun 28 06:13:18 so for the EU customs tariff rate is free (if declared mobile phone) or 3.5% (if declared GPS) plus 19% VAT plus shipping Jun 28 06:13:56 P1 range was 2 days short though ;-) Jun 28 06:14:41 aloril: also time to change the counter's TimeZone to Samoa Jun 28 06:14:49 aloril: it's still 7pm there :) Jun 28 06:14:50 so probably in the EU it will be avail for ~300EUR with VAT, customs and shipping... Jun 28 06:14:59 gamin: right Jun 28 06:15:09 gamin: sounds reasonable, yes Jun 28 06:15:21 Stephmw: it is even further than that: UTC-12 ;-) Jun 28 06:15:48 thus its +-1 day to cover whole earth for 2007-07-09, not +-0.5 Jun 28 06:16:10 if I'm gonna be spending that much on tax, I might as well collect it in person from the EU distribution offices - and get a nice daytrip out of it Jun 28 06:16:30 aloril: hmmm, ahhh, I was looking at GMT times Jun 28 06:16:39 aloril: and comparing to my non-GMT summertime Jun 28 06:17:48 * Stephmw goes to work Jun 28 06:17:55 price: 300$ = 223 EUR; 42.50 EUR VAT; 6.70 EUR customs tariff; shipping 20EUR maybe? Jun 28 06:22:32 counter is calculating until 2007-07-09T12:00 UCT (GMT) +- 1 day Jun 28 06:23:02 which should cover whole earth for 2007-07-09 Jun 28 06:24:13 * aloril gave only 60% because its so small uncertainty (80% for whole week though..) Jun 28 06:25:34 450EUR (with VAT etc) for the final GTA02 - who will ever buy that, apart from geeks? you can get a laptop for that. Jun 28 06:26:03 just because nokia sells its N800 and apple its iPhone in that price-range... Jun 28 06:26:23 i think, that's not you problem Jun 28 06:26:27 +r Jun 28 06:29:33 Nokia N95 is around 700 € or so and E90 communicator is around 800 € Jun 28 06:29:48 aloril: US$ ? Jun 28 06:29:52 EUR Jun 28 06:30:00 (in Finland) Jun 28 06:33:37 aloril: don't forget the chatham islands which are GMT+12:45 (and GMT+13:45 during DST) Jun 28 06:34:19 counter Jun 28 06:34:20 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 05:25:35 (11.226±1.0 days) (1632;241) Jun 28 06:35:18 wee Jun 28 06:35:45 rwhitby: ah, yeah, actually even earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B14 Jun 28 06:36:10 well.. I'll just ignore those 2 hours, doubt it will be available that early ;-) Jun 28 06:36:53 xkr47: and counter will move now full speed for 10 days ;-) Jun 28 06:37:27 :) Jun 28 06:45:35 <_buz> counter Jun 28 06:45:36 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 05:14:20 (11.218±1.0 days) (1633;241) Jun 28 06:45:57 * _buz is not happy with new price Jun 28 06:49:08 I was expecting something like that, though-- it's /always/ happened with computer hardware projects... Jun 28 06:54:26 aloril: yeah, I use chatham islands as the example cause then people are normally freaked out by both the offset being > 12, but also the :45 timezone (which is even weirder than my :30 timezone) Jun 28 06:54:46 hehe Jun 28 06:57:27 * aloril thinks there still should be phase 2 sometime next year, but maybe that is then GTA03 .. Jun 28 06:58:11 guess: 3G or something like that, also guess is that negotiations are going on Jun 28 06:59:21 * xkr47 estimates GTA19 will be like emacs 19 - unreplacable and complete ;-) Jun 28 07:00:02 it sounds like post-gta02 will have a new case design with different UI Jun 28 07:00:15 happycube: yeah Jun 28 07:01:19 any details on upgrades for people who plump for the gta01? Jun 28 07:01:19 <_buz> he could have give some info for hxd8 at least Jun 28 07:01:21 GTA03 is obviously 'next' version, but I wonder how GTX01 and GTX02 differ, I guess at least one of those is parallel model with for example keyboard and/or camera Jun 28 07:01:38 <_buz> so_solid_moo: gta01 is 300$ now, gta02 is 450$ Jun 28 07:01:41 <_buz> no discounts Jun 28 07:01:51 ok Jun 28 07:02:01 so_solid_moo: 50$ discount for GTA01B_v4 itself Jun 28 07:02:38 yeah, I just didn't want to hold out for the gta02, but if it's coming with an accelerator and stuff.. that's a tough choice. Jun 28 07:02:58 so_solid_moo: there could be 100% discount for selected developers (for betatesting), nothing official though, just rumors Jun 28 07:03:16 (maybe those who got P0/P1 for free?) Jun 28 07:04:06 so_solid_moo: well.. GTA01B_v04: 150$ cheaper and at least 3 months earlier, but then has less hardware Jun 28 07:04:34 so_solid_moo: you could get discount by yourself: sell GTA01B_v04 ;-) Jun 28 07:04:53 hehe Jun 28 07:05:06 the only thing that worries me is whether gta01 will be able to keep up with openmoko Jun 28 07:05:07 Sean is a real storyteller :-) Jun 28 07:05:25 After the gta01/02 and up until public release, will the hardware differ? Jun 28 07:05:25 jonkristian: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 28 07:06:05 It's a problem for them in trying to avoid 'an Osborne Maneuver' Jun 28 07:06:22 jonkristian: GTA02 is supposedly public release Jun 28 07:06:53 well.. I guess there will be revisions, like GTA02_v02 or GTA02_v03, but what is sold should be final GTA02 Jun 28 07:07:03 good morning Jun 28 07:07:05 aloril: Oh, ok, thank you Jun 28 07:07:34 neo is still a good deal at $450, imho Jun 28 07:08:30 GPU + WiFi + Accelerators (+ more Flash) == $100 it seems ($300 for GTA01B_v04 is $50 discounted ;-) Jun 28 07:09:08 <_buz> for 450$ it should have a cam and sane case Jun 28 07:10:18 $450 is close to iPhone ...but then its features are close too ;-) Jun 28 07:10:33 <_buz> maybe it can even do copy paste lol Jun 28 07:11:30 if there's a decent developer community & software support, then I think $450 is still worth the money Jun 28 07:11:44 $300 was better but oh well. Jun 28 07:12:56 aloril: This will be in October right? Sorry, I was thinking about the October releaseGTA02 compared to GTA01B_v4 which is to be released in may 9th Jun 28 07:13:14 they don't mention the battery in the GTA02 as previously suggested.. is that a mistake ? Jun 28 07:13:18 jonkristian: yes Jun 28 07:13:22 s/they/sean/ Jun 28 07:13:22 xkr47 meant: sean don't mention the battery in the GTA02 as previously suggested.. is that a mistake ? Jun 28 07:13:50 counter Jun 28 07:13:50 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 04:46:05 (11.199±1.0 days) (1634;241) Jun 28 07:13:59 aloril 450$ is not near the iphone since that you can only buy with contract which subsidarys the hardware (up to 250$) Jun 28 07:14:21 roh: yeah, true indeed, iPhone is about $2000 ;-) Jun 28 07:14:32 wiml: it is defintively a very good price along wiht all that debugging-stuff Jun 28 07:14:35 aloril: thanks Jun 28 07:14:51 aloril: so it could be about 750$ Jun 28 07:14:57 Rince: the debugging stuff is extra on both gta's Jun 28 07:15:20 I know Jun 28 07:15:21 jonkristian: see [[Neo1973]] page linked from FAQ (link given earlier) and announce mail linked from Neo1973 page Jun 28 07:15:45 aloril: yes, thank you:) Jun 28 07:15:53 roh: yeah, we will see when they announce Europe version, in Finland at least its illegal to Bundle only deals Jun 28 07:16:02 so_solid_moo yes. we seperated that since a lot developers will not need it. the most people do not develop on the kernel and low-level drivers or bootloaders Jun 28 07:16:16 actually, its not 3G, all bundling is illegal in Finland for iPhone ;-) Jun 28 07:16:23 aloril: hrhr.. patience my padawan Jun 28 07:16:53 aloril: i expect them to delay european sales till they have a variant with 3g. edge is mostly useless in europe afaik Jun 28 07:17:08 roh: I think that's a smart move, btw Jun 28 07:17:10 morning Jun 28 07:17:13 roh: yeah, that makes sense Jun 28 07:17:25 morning hrw Jun 28 07:18:01 hrw: looked at your mails yet? announce was made Jun 28 07:18:04 unknown_lamer: hunting down breakfast Jun 28 07:18:13 aloril: I know Jun 28 07:18:26 counter Jun 28 07:18:26 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 04:41:29 (11.195±1.0 days) (1635;241) Jun 28 07:19:04 morning Jun 28 07:23:10 morning TRIsoft (seen news?) Jun 28 07:23:46 hi aloril. Sure. Interesting news. Let's hope they get it rolling soon... Jun 28 07:24:01 aloril: post updated Jun 28 07:26:05 hrw: umm.. what post updated? (other than "New Oceans") Jun 28 07:26:20 planet? Jun 28 07:26:40 aloril: my blog Jun 28 07:27:22 hrw: ah, not yet at planet.openmoko.org Jun 28 07:28:19 now that samsung has come up with an 8GB micro SD card, is standard SD slot off the roadmap? Jun 28 07:28:41 ah, yeah won't be visible there because its update I guess Jun 28 07:28:43 http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/06/27/how-to-buy-neo1973-phone/ Jun 28 07:29:41 (or maybe it will, will see soon I guess) Jun 28 07:31:32 * Stephmw makes it to work in one piece Jun 28 07:40:14 hello steleopard Jun 28 07:40:47 hi Jun 28 07:43:17 Is there any who knows how to use the OE of our phone platform Jun 28 07:45:39 help me , who knows why the file OE.mtn.bz2 download from http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/ has error when bzip2 it Jun 28 07:46:06 ~oe.mtn Jun 28 07:46:19 ye Jun 28 07:46:21 from memory, oe.mtn is snapshot of OpenEmbedded metadata available on http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/ as files for monotone <0.30 and for >=0.30 Jun 28 07:46:27 oh, cool, only $300, i love this company ;) Jun 28 07:46:46 only?? Jun 28 07:47:02 $ is cheap Jun 28 07:47:11 ~change 1 usd to pln Jun 28 07:47:41 I don't think so, not very cheap at least Jun 28 07:47:44 $:£ is 2:1 atm :) Jun 28 07:47:49 it was $350, wasn't it? Jun 28 07:47:57 $300 Jun 28 07:48:23 mikesh: it was Jun 28 07:48:28 yes, $50 reduction in price Jun 28 07:48:53 nice :) Jun 28 07:48:56 SunZhiyong: compared to other prototype devices, it's cheap Jun 28 07:50:02 222.88 euro + some shipping.. neat Jun 28 07:50:49 * aloril eying topic: October date is optimistic date Jun 28 07:51:22 morning Jun 28 07:51:23 so_solid_moo, quite cool Jun 28 07:51:48 when i use "make setup" for openmoko. it show that : Jun 28 07:51:49 bunzip2: Data integrity error when decompressing. Jun 28 07:51:50 Input file = OE.mtn.bz2, output file = (stdout) Jun 28 07:51:50 It is possible that the compressed file(s) have become corrupted. Jun 28 07:51:50 You can use the -tvv option to test integrity of such files. Jun 28 07:51:50 You can use the `bzip2recover' program to attempt to recover Jun 28 07:51:50 data from undamaged sections of corrupted files. Jun 28 07:51:52 make: *** [OE.mtn] Error 2 Jun 28 07:52:24 * koen hints at the md5 Jun 28 07:52:45 c5bb4fea93e1f441078d745338f5a763 OE.mtn.bz2 Jun 28 07:52:52 * hrw fetched snapshot and unpacked Jun 28 07:53:01 aada7d433917cb73a592119b864dee3c OE.mtn Jun 28 07:53:01 it seems that the OE.mtn.bz2 from http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/OE-this-is-for-mtn-0.31.mtn.bz2 has some problem Jun 28 07:54:04 some question about GPS, is it free, or you should pay for the map Jun 28 07:55:35 I try another one, 0.30,, 0.32, there are the same some problem as 0.31. Jun 28 07:55:54 SunZhiyong: GPS is free. maps is other thing Jun 28 07:56:06 SunZhiyong, it depends on the software.. gps just delivers coordinates, and that's free as in beer Jun 28 07:56:16 SunZhiyong: GPS is free. Maps are free or cost something. Depends on the map. Jun 28 07:56:52 * Stephmw sels a map of his forehead, charges $1M per download Jun 28 07:56:55 *sells Jun 28 07:57:19 ;), great Jun 28 08:00:41 updated wifi, camera messages Jun 28 08:01:17 wifi? Jun 28 08:01:17 GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jun 28 08:01:26 camera? Jun 28 08:01:26 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (also some model next year probably will gave camera module: http://www.channelweb.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone ) Jun 28 08:01:59 usb? Jun 28 08:02:01 camera module? Jun 28 08:02:10 just read the announcement, very passionate. gta02 @ $450 more than i thought it would be Jun 28 08:02:42 hrw: faq? command covers rest ;-) Jun 28 08:03:57 SpeedEvil: actually what I see changed is that GTA02 is seemingly going to be marketed for mass market from start, not only for developers initially and later for mass market Jun 28 08:05:27 aloril, yes i see what you mean Jun 28 08:05:39 not too long to get the software up to scratch Jun 28 08:05:42 I've noticed that there are several solder pads on the neo's board. is there one to access i2c? Jun 28 08:05:49 SpeedEvil: that spy note being about blogging: I think that might be quite good guess (laforge, mickeyl) ;-) Jun 28 08:06:05 webjames: probably money thing Jun 28 08:06:12 steleopard: check the md5sums as we said, or shut up Jun 28 08:06:31 LittleIdiot: I2C is intentionally available on GTA01 Jun 28 08:06:40 (on some of those solder pads) Jun 28 08:06:51 great ;) Jun 28 08:06:56 see the wiki for GTA01_Bv4 changes for details Jun 28 08:09:00 steleopard: you need to at least delete that corrupted file Jun 28 08:09:38 <_buz> i'm not so sure if its a terribly smart move to rush the mass market release Jun 28 08:09:47 <_buz> you generally get one shot at that Jun 28 08:09:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] Jun 28 08:09:59 <_buz> which you dont want to waste with unfinished software Jun 28 08:10:27 * nox-Hand sniffles Jun 28 08:10:42 Will have a harder time getting 450 dollars :( Jun 28 08:10:47 _buz: sonyericsson get away with it :o> Jun 28 08:10:53 Was hoping for 350 for the final one Jun 28 08:11:10 <_buz> yeah i'm not terribly happy about the 450$ either Jun 28 08:11:20 <_buz> if that includes vat and shipping i can live with it Jun 28 08:11:24 <_buz> but if not.... Jun 28 08:11:43 :( Jun 28 08:11:50 _buz: But then it's more than likely that if I order one they will put 50% import tax ON TOP of it Jun 28 08:12:05 And then I'll be in no fun Jun 28 08:12:18 nox-Hand: I''l be thinking of collecting in person + get a nice few days holiday Jun 28 08:12:32 Stephmw: Where, in Japan? Jun 28 08:12:40 hi Jun 28 08:12:45 Hi lun Jun 28 08:12:52 nox-Hand: last I'd heard they were planning of shipping from within Europe too Jun 28 08:13:14 Great news about GTA0x ;) Jun 28 08:13:33 350 should be a tax off price Jun 28 08:13:45 <_buz> i would have hoped for some information about future line up Jun 28 08:13:56 _buz: I wonder whether one could get enough votes that state "I won't buy at this price, but I will if we can get them for 350" - get a few thousand of them and it might be worth it for them to drop price due to more sales Jun 28 08:14:00 Though unlikely Jun 28 08:14:02 Is ordering posible now or after jul 9th ? Jun 28 08:14:02 lun: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 28 08:14:09 _buz 450 was more than i thought it would be Jun 28 08:14:22 lun: after 9th Jun 28 08:14:34 nox-Hand, thanks. Jun 28 08:14:36 <_buz> if they fix that ugly case i might pay 450$ Jun 28 08:14:48 _buz: ugly case? Jun 28 08:14:57 !google 450 USD in GBP Jun 28 08:14:59 450 U.S. dollars = 225.15761 British pounds Jun 28 08:15:15 <_buz> the case is over sized for what is within Jun 28 08:15:15 !google 300 USD in GBP Jun 28 08:15:16 300 U.S. dollars = 150.105074 British pounds Jun 28 08:15:17 german news item: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/91868 Jun 28 08:15:35 <_buz> i think the round top/bottom are ridiculous, realy Jun 28 08:15:46 _buz, once they have a mold i'm not sure they'll want to change that Jun 28 08:16:01 _buz, quite expensive Jun 28 08:16:20 _buz: Also highly practical for user hacks :P Jun 28 08:16:48 you could make your own case Jun 28 08:16:51 <_buz> yeah quite expensive Jun 28 08:16:54 l Jun 28 08:16:59 <_buz> but likely worth it from marketing point of view Jun 28 08:17:00 then submit your design see if they like it Jun 28 08:17:21 _buz maybe you could sell third party cases Jun 28 08:17:27 _buz: Agred, make a highly detailed concept design that fits around current design Jun 28 08:17:29 <_buz> i suck as desinger Jun 28 08:17:37 shame Jun 28 08:17:45 LittleIdiot there is also spi and a irq-capable gpio on pads Jun 28 08:17:50 _buz: it'll make seeing your creation even more enjoyable :D Jun 28 08:18:11 <_buz> honestly, take the current design and square it Jun 28 08:18:32 <_buz> and use that rubbery feeling plastic Jun 28 08:18:59 <_buz> or brushed metal if the rf issues can be sorted out Jun 28 08:19:03 * Stephmw points _buz to the wiki, time to add those ideas Jun 28 08:19:15 Lorphos: thx 4 link Jun 28 08:20:10 _buz: I don't know whether it is already, but I am hoping for the sides (edges) to be wider than the rest of the phone - if it was a rubbery substance, you could be able to accidentaly drop it without damaging screen Jun 28 08:20:46 <_buz> the first of the archos hd players was built like that Jun 28 08:21:04 * nox-Hand likes that - more rugged Jun 28 08:21:28 if i would buy a openmoko now, how much discount i would get for the next hardware revision? are there already some informations about that? Jun 28 08:22:21 _buz, nox-Hand: ... guys, what are you designing? A niche, warzone-capable handset? Or mass-market, consumer-friendly handset? Jun 28 08:22:34 Stephmw: THe first :) Jun 28 08:22:44 Stephmw: Though I like the desing as is :( Jun 28 08:23:00 s/desing/design/ Jun 28 08:23:00 nox-Hand meant: Stephmw: Though I like the design as is :( Jun 28 08:23:37 nox-Hand: then it's better for you to make your own case then, rather than getting OpenMoko to switch wholescale ;) Jun 28 08:24:00 Stephmw: I never suggested changing casewholescale Jun 28 08:24:10 Stephmw: I want the original case Jun 28 08:24:49 nox-Hand: ah yes, that was _buz Jun 28 08:25:13 Hehe :) Jun 28 08:25:57 <_buz> i think the phone looks more like a toy than a professional device right now Jun 28 08:26:13 <_buz> and i heard that ocmment from various people i talked with Jun 28 08:26:16 Wow, the CPU is going to be upgraded from 266MHz to 400MHz and 64mb flash ram to 256mb flash ram :o Jun 28 08:26:16 fits right in with the OLPC Jun 28 08:26:39 _buz: sure, I don't claim that as it is it's mass-market friendly Jun 28 08:27:22 _buz: but really, until they've got the hw sorted, I don't really mind what it looks like Jun 28 08:27:50 Stephmw: I think the next model will be awesome probably Jun 28 08:27:56 <_buz> if GTA-02 is supposed to be sold to the masses, it should better look like it Jun 28 08:28:07 * nox-Hand hopes it will have more side buttons and a slide down keyboard Jun 28 08:28:13 full QWERTY Jun 28 08:28:21 I don't rightly like touch screen keyboards Jun 28 08:28:35 _buz: I handle _lots_ of protos at work, and tbh, I can't understand how some ever succeed (look-wise) Jun 28 08:28:39 _buz: but they do Jun 28 08:28:40 "Taiwanese people don't trust e-commerce" Jun 28 08:28:58 koen: yeah, that was surprising Jun 28 08:29:03 <_buz> yeah gimme slide qwerty Jun 28 08:29:10 <_buz> he should buy stuff in hongkong Jun 28 08:29:12 * rwhitby agrees with the qwerty keyboard, but realises that FIC makes the decisions on how their hardware is designed, so sees it as futile to argue about it here. Jun 28 08:29:18 <_buz> tons of neat mainboard etc on sale there Jun 28 08:29:28 rwhitby: haha Jun 28 08:29:39 <_buz> actually as i understan it, openmoko makes those decisions now Jun 28 08:29:47 <_buz> fic is only ODM Jun 28 08:29:50 rwhitby: I was under the understanding that it's cheaper (mechanically) to not have a keyboard/pad for now Jun 28 08:30:01 _buz: actually, you are very correct on that point. Jun 28 08:30:13 openmoko is no longer just a software distribution, it is a hardware company too. Jun 28 08:30:18 Stephmw: sean said he does not want to make mini-pcs Jun 28 08:30:29 <_buz> its obviouslly cheaper to not add qwerty Jun 28 08:30:36 <_buz> but i'd happily pay for qwerty Jun 28 08:30:55 <_buz> (having said that, i can live with TS, i do so for 3,5 years already) Jun 28 08:30:55 koen: I can understand his position - that niche has lots of bad press Jun 28 08:31:07 <_buz> htc seems to live quite comfortably there Jun 28 08:31:12 _buz: have you used the qwerty kbd on a P910? Jun 28 08:31:20 hi Jun 28 08:31:26 <_buz> that one is totally ridiculous Jun 28 08:31:39 I personally cannot move from a Treo650 to a device without a keyboard. But I can see that there are enough people who have not experienced the pure utopia of a Treo device that OpenMoko will have a market for a keyboard-less device ;-) Jun 28 08:31:39 $3000: with price of iPhone you can probably get 2 year updates of Neo1973 (including GTA01B_v4, GTA02, GTA03, ...): http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN2636373120070626 Jun 28 08:31:43 _buz: maybe, but I can get a good typing speed on it Jun 28 08:31:55 _buz: htc is a (hostile) spinoff of FIC Jun 28 08:32:05 <_buz> i know Jun 28 08:32:15 <_buz> maybe thats why fic cant directly compete? Jun 28 08:33:05 aloril: ++ Jun 28 08:35:29 _buz: I think plan has been all the time to sell GTA02 to masses (just that 2 phases for software) Jun 28 08:38:27 @BlackFog: The article has new pictures now Jun 28 08:38:36 where i can find more info about the new mobil phone? e.g. shell access Jun 28 08:39:23 Lorphos: cool, thx Jun 28 08:39:26 yes there is shell access Jun 28 08:39:57 haha, look at this: "One listing from a self-professed "professional waiter" offered to stand on line for a fee of $100 per eight hours wait." Jun 28 08:40:00 jens_: see MokoMakefile link from FAQ: you can get software now Jun 28 08:40:12 ha! Jun 28 08:40:14 ~faq Jun 28 08:40:15 i heard faq is frequently asked question... try asking me about "RTFM" Jun 28 08:40:23 * Stephmw eyes apt Jun 28 08:40:26 faq? Jun 28 08:40:26 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Jun 28 08:40:36 thanks Jun 28 08:41:08 where i find a shop in germany? Jun 28 08:42:21 jens_: now it only will be available directly from FIC/Taiwan rather Jun 28 08:43:43 i must handle the tax for germany / eu ? Jun 28 08:43:49 jens: you can only order it online for now but it will probably be shipped from inside the EU Jun 28 08:44:10 ok ;) Jun 28 08:45:07 sean confirmed this a long time ago and laf0rge's latest blog entry also mentions this http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/28/#20070628-openmoko_update Jun 28 08:46:39 hmm.. maybe poster doesn't realize that GSM is different part? http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/06/28/gpl-v3-the-qa-part-3-companies/ Jun 28 08:50:07 works the handy with umts or g3 networks? Jun 28 08:50:33 jens_: have you read anything on the wiki yet? Jun 28 08:50:43 only the faq Jun 28 08:51:35 and the page linked from Q4.2 didn't answer that for you? Jun 28 08:51:46 a moment please Jun 28 08:52:40 i do not need a provider list. but i see the frequency ranges. Jun 28 08:53:12 seems quite relevant post (not about FIC, but still relevant to what happened with new OpenMoko company): http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/11/business-model-innovation-you-have-to.html Jun 28 08:53:41 jens_: also see Neo1973 page linked from FAQ Jun 28 08:54:27 aloril: it is true that the wiki assumes that someone already knows the difference between GSM and 3G/UMTS ... Jun 28 08:56:24 counter Jun 28 08:56:25 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 03:03:31 (11.127±1.0 days) (1636;241) Jun 28 08:56:30 your webpage is primary for end consumers? Jun 28 08:56:35 no Jun 28 08:57:08 hmmm, time for a consumer-friendly webpage? Jun 28 08:57:16 end consumer release is not until september at least, right? Jun 28 08:57:18 s/webpage/eiki entry/ Jun 28 08:57:20 Stephmw meant: hmmm, time for a consumer-friendly eiki entry? Jun 28 08:57:28 rwhitby: yeah, I guess there should be separate Q&A about 3G, GPRS, etc.. Jun 28 08:57:40 Geee Jun 28 08:57:45 Heise has already a new article - nice Jun 28 08:57:58 url? Jun 28 08:58:00 rwhitby: not until October at least ;-) Jun 28 08:58:03 http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/91868 Jun 28 08:58:05 german only, sorry Jun 28 08:58:59 google can translate it understantably: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fmeldung%2F91868&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools Jun 28 09:09:45 That translation is rather pessimistic about GTA02 Jun 28 09:10:01 ... the next hardware revision GTA02 is announced, this is to fail clearly more efficiently ... Jun 28 09:11:03 that translation is wrong Jun 28 09:11:15 "Für Oktober ist die nächste Hardwarerevision GTA02 angekündigt, diese soll deutlich leistungsfähiger ausfallen " Jun 28 09:11:34 according to isupply the combined hardware and manufacturing costs of the gta_01 are 190$ - http://www.isuppli.com/news/default.asp?id=7308 Jun 28 09:11:44 is "the gtao2 has been announced for oktoper, with clearly better specs" Jun 28 09:11:47 koen: Wrong, but fun :D Jun 28 09:13:14 oh man what a nice thing to read when you check your email in the morning :) Jun 28 09:14:09 Strange translations google gives Jun 28 09:14:32 translations strange gives Google Jun 28 09:15:02 You'd have thought they'd try to translate entire words before breaking them down into components (e.g. hochauflösenden = high res not highly soluble) Jun 28 09:15:21 gamin taking prices apple gets through volumes are not really compareable i think Jun 28 09:17:04 roh put 20% on top. FIC is not a small player. Jun 28 09:17:06 GPS-Empfänger is translated to "government inspection department receiver" Jun 28 09:17:22 haha xD Jun 28 09:20:01 gamin i dunno real prices. its the numbers which count. and those like the announced ones are rather low. so beware what could happen when later devices are in mp and the counts go way up Jun 28 09:20:23 * rwhitby wonders if all the people who emailed on the list about the announcement never happening and it's all vapourware, etc, etc, will now send a retraction ... ? Jun 28 09:21:01 I guess they will not say that July 9th won't happen ... Jun 28 09:21:04 s/not/now/ Jun 28 09:21:05 rwhitby meant: I guess they will now say that July 9th won't happen ... Jun 28 09:21:27 and then they'll say that orders will never be shipped ... Jun 28 09:23:59 is there still nothing known about the discount i get when i buy a developer device "now" and a phase 2 phone in october? Jun 28 09:25:12 fish_: RTFA Jun 28 09:26:00 i read the faq.. well, i'll read it again Jun 28 09:26:32 just the announcement: the phone is "discounted" to 300$ Jun 28 09:27:21 We've decided that instead of setting up a complicated return or tracking system to remember who gets a discount for GTA02, we going to give you _all_ a discount on GTA01. We're going to sell the Neo Base for $300. Jun 28 09:27:22 rwhitby: yeah, they believe it when somebody receives paid phone (and of course then they will complain that they can't buy one because it sold out ;-) Jun 28 09:29:25 fish_: there is discount system: $50 cheaper for GTA01_v4 and then you can sell it when you buy GTA02 ;-) Jun 28 09:29:31 * koen looks at the 2 pieces of vapourware on his desk Jun 28 09:34:59 <_buz> mhh so neo costs more to make than i thought Jun 28 09:37:27 <_buz> if isupply is right, i retract my claim of it costing less than 150$ to make Jun 28 09:38:32 is iphone competition pressing down the price? ;) Jun 28 09:39:14 they prefer to have developers now instead of later Jun 28 09:43:21 well.. i would like to have my neo asap but when i think i'll really want the GTA02 it would be a pretty stupid idea to buy the GTA01 first... Jun 28 09:45:05 fish_, would you consider selling your GTA01 to me for $200 after getting the GTA02 ?-) Jun 28 09:46:03 there should be a page in the wiki where you can tell you are selling your moko and for what price you can consider selling it :) Jun 28 09:46:07 even that would costs me $100 for 3 month playing around.. Jun 28 09:49:57 fish_: cheapest iPhone contract is something like 2x of that ;-) Jun 28 09:50:14 (and it could as well be 5 months too) Jun 28 09:56:30 there's news then Jun 28 09:56:42 and heck if I'm not gonna buy the thing Jun 28 09:56:51 counter Jun 28 09:56:52 (last update 2007-06-28T05:42) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 4 days 02:03:04 (11.085±1.0 days) (1637;241) Jun 28 09:57:16 * mjr is a bit tempted with the toolbox totality even if not really a HW-hacking type Jun 28 09:57:40 mjr: ditto (also I get host USB cable with it for 'free' ;-) Jun 28 09:58:01 aloril, yeah, that's pretty much the straw there that may break the camel's back ;D Jun 28 09:58:22 its just $100 more than $350 ;-) Jun 28 09:58:39 ...and there's that too, when already in the mood to spend 350 ;) Jun 28 09:59:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RcCFrf-NW0 Jun 28 10:00:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhzm_hpEbo Jun 28 10:00:43 * mjr notes no EDGE then for GTA02. Ah well, we'll manage. Jun 28 10:01:38 is wifi certain for GTA02? Jun 28 10:01:44 mjr: 1700mAh battery also not mentioned, but I guess it could be even more by that time ;-) Jun 28 10:01:57 *sigh*, the w word again Jun 28 10:02:02 ewon, as certain as Sean's word it Jun 28 10:02:03 is Jun 28 10:02:28 mjr: I still would not give 0% probability for EDGE Jun 28 10:02:44 aloril, well, true, I suppose it could sneak in as a minor upgrade Jun 28 10:03:27 mjr: or it could be that are still too unsure to dare mention that (leave it as positive surprise) Jun 28 10:03:36 or there's that, yes Jun 28 10:03:59 anyway, better not hold breath :] Jun 28 10:04:25 mjr: anyway, iPhone price ($2000): with that you can buy GTA01B_v4, GTA02, GTA03, ... during next 2 years ;-) Jun 28 10:04:45 <_buz> calculation of iphone price is off Jun 28 10:04:52 aloril, and probably will... Jun 28 10:04:53 <_buz> that would assume you're phone calls for free Jun 28 10:05:08 <_buz> your Jun 28 10:06:09 * mjr is getting married on 7th, btw. A late wedding gift from Sean, I'm sure. Jun 28 10:06:29 it was supposed to be a birthday gift though, on May 10th ;) Jun 28 10:06:51 hmm.. let see: $500 + $60 * 48 about $2000 for iPhone Jun 28 10:07:22 hmm.. let see: $500 + $60 * 24 about $2000 for iPhone Jun 28 10:07:54 aloril: butbut, you're paying for the _experience_ of getting it up the arse by Jobs... Jun 28 10:08:06 $450 + $450 + $450 (guess;-) + $15 * 24 about $300 cheaper Jun 28 10:08:31 aloril: seriously though, the OpenMoko cost is also deferred with regards to software... someone's gonna be developing it somewhere (it could even be you!) Jun 28 10:08:41 (actually doubt its going to be $15/month, probably less) Jun 28 10:09:00 Stephmw: of course ;-) Jun 28 10:09:24 Stephmw: thats why get software I want with Neo1973, but can't get it on iPhone Jun 28 10:09:37 Stephmw: so really price is minor point considering this Jun 28 10:10:32 woohoo Jun 28 10:10:36 Stephmw: so in my opinion Neo1973 wins hugely on features in software side Jun 28 10:10:36 just read the mail by sean Jun 28 10:10:51 congrats! Jun 28 10:15:01 roh: hehe, so that is explanation of spy remark Jun 28 10:15:12 * aloril is still watching Jun 28 10:15:15 aloil: dunno.. just guessing Jun 28 10:18:42 roh: good find Jun 28 10:21:26 roh: that "confidential" and "0:12 am" kind of hints about that (and its at right place too) ;-) Jun 28 10:38:33 good morning Jun 28 10:42:12 mjr: congrats on getting married Jun 28 10:42:50 oo.. congrats mjr :) Jun 28 11:17:01 counter_msg (last update 2007-06-28T11:13) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 28 11:17:01 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-28T11:13) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 28 11:17:21 (just added those 'spy' videos) Jun 28 12:07:42 aloril, those videos sound interesting Jun 28 12:07:52 * webjames looks Jun 28 12:10:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] [[Talk:IPhone]] [[IPhone]] [[User:Flerchjj]] Jun 28 12:11:10 hmm.. Jun 28 12:12:20 the speech synthesis sound interesting Jun 28 12:12:47 cpu should just about be beefy enough for something like flite Jun 28 12:12:58 you could even telnet in and freak someone out remotely :) Jun 28 12:13:16 "you stole my openmoko, I'm going to hunt you down and sell your kidneys on the black market" etc. Jun 28 12:13:19 Stephmw: I wouldn't have mind if the Basic phone would have stayed at 350$, but the developer phone would have been made cheaper instead Jun 28 12:13:21 !google define:flite Jun 28 12:13:23 Festival is a general multi-lingual speech synthesis system developed at Centre for Speech Technology Research (CSTR) at the University of Edinburgh. @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flite ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=all&q=define:flite ) Jun 28 12:13:28 Stephmw: after all, you right now need more developers :-) Jun 28 12:14:29 these vids that aloril got on his counter page are interesting Jun 28 12:14:30 schurig: but does every developer need jtag? Jun 28 12:14:32 I'd be interested in speech recognition and speaker identification/verification Jun 28 12:14:38 or a shoulderstrap? Jun 28 12:14:44 audio commands from the user Jun 28 12:15:36 download the models from a central server Jun 28 12:16:28 DukeOfURL: so, search for sphinx, atk, isip, sqpa, stk, things like that Jun 28 12:16:54 DukeOfURL: there are millions of people that produce paper about this topic, but not usable & fast software with a sane license Jun 28 12:17:07 s/paper/tons of papers/ Jun 28 12:17:07 schurig meant: DukeOfURL: there are millions of people that produce tons of papers about this topic, but not usable & fast software with a sane license Jun 28 12:17:47 I'm looking at htk from Cambridge... Jun 28 12:17:48 webjames: thanks to roh for pasting links here Jun 28 12:18:19 thanks roh, the videos are interesting Jun 28 12:19:05 DukeOfURL: there's not even a free corpus (database of recorded speech) that you can use to train a recognizer or to test speaker separation Jun 28 12:19:23 DukeOfURL: there is a project for a corpus in english language, but for other languages: nil Jun 28 12:19:46 I've purchased the TIMIT corpus for English Jun 28 12:19:47 DukeOfURL: the Universities and Institutes sit on this material and charge you ~ 500-1000 EU per database Jun 28 12:20:02 yup Jun 28 12:20:10 so, in short, Open Source for Speech recognition sucks currently Jun 28 12:22:06 The phone has to do the recognition/verification bits before the speech is compressed by GSM Jun 28 12:24:05 shame, i'm sure project like this will drive other project forward Jun 28 12:24:22 and vice versa Jun 28 13:01:57 more verification of iPhone's SIM madness from theregister; "While the iPhone's own shortcomings have been glossed over - the SIM is sealed and locked down" Jun 28 13:02:35 Its a GSM phone? Jun 28 13:02:37 that's great Jun 28 13:02:51 SpeedEvil, yesyes Jun 28 13:03:43 Does that mean actually glued in? Jun 28 13:03:47 as Stephmw said, "epoxy resin is every AT&T sales rep's friend" Jun 28 13:04:22 SpeedEvil, that's how I read it, since that sort of information has been leaking out elsewhere as well Jun 28 13:05:10 Hi people. Jun 28 13:05:29 yeah i head something about the sim being in the phone, but elsewhere i heard it does have a sim slot Jun 28 13:05:36 hey elrond Jun 28 13:05:42 So openmoko was on heise (local IT news) and everybody bugged me about the neo. ;o) Jun 28 13:06:37 people should just stop buying apple stuff... it's a far worse vendor-lockin than say ms... Jun 28 13:07:40 they are. Jun 28 13:08:02 yeah the iPhone is simlocked Jun 28 13:08:10 it's simlocked? Jun 28 13:08:15 cocks Jun 28 13:08:26 <[lankester]> goodbuy unlocking :| Jun 28 13:08:31 <[lankester]> goodbye Jun 28 13:08:36 i am just looking at various data packages in the uk Jun 28 13:08:44 anyone else done that? Jun 28 13:09:52 ewon: check wsj.com Jun 28 13:12:25 this is interesting: http://www.onecompare.com/mobile-news/311/75698547/how-will-vodafone-compare-with-other-mobile-internet-providers.htm Jun 28 13:13:28 3 seemed a good deal, but apparently you can't: "[James Olney] that's a shame as i cannot use another hand set. are you sure there is no way of putting the settings into another 3g GPRS phone? Jun 28 13:13:29 [Rahul] 3 sim card has to be used in 3 handset only" Jun 28 13:18:15 AIUI. Jun 28 13:18:33 That's not strictly correct. Jun 28 13:19:01 3 will bar your SIM if you use it in a GSM only phone. Jun 28 13:19:19 (define (debug request) Jun 28 13:19:19 (format #t "Status: 200 OK~%Content-Type: text/html~%~%") Jun 28 13:19:19 (format #t "debug") Jun 28 13:19:19 (table-walk (lambda (key value) Jun 28 13:19:19 (format #t "" key value)) Jun 28 13:19:20 (request-header request)) Jun 28 13:19:21 (format #t "
~a~a
") Jun 28 13:19:24 (format #t "

Body: ~a

" (request-body request)) Jun 28 13:19:24 As they are then usually charged roaming fees. Jun 28 13:19:25 (format #t "")) Jun 28 13:19:28 damn, sorry... Jun 28 13:20:18 As I understand it at the moment t-mobile is about the best deal - if you don't have 3G Jun 28 13:20:20 (UK) Jun 28 13:20:22 lisp! Jun 28 13:20:40 1 quid a day for up to 40Mb of data - on pay-as-you-go Jun 28 13:20:50 (40M fair use) Jun 28 13:21:06 Or 7.50/month additional on a contract, for up to 1G/day Jun 28 13:21:20 The cheapest contract though is 20 quid. Jun 28 13:21:51 I have yet to have a response from them on if it's possible to add 'WebNWalk' to a SIM-only contract. (7.50/mo) Jun 28 13:22:21 ecraven: what kind of lisp/scheme is that? Jun 28 13:22:55 scheme48 with a bunch of libraries Jun 28 13:23:08 it's web framework code, something i'm working on Jun 28 13:23:13 Joy, for today the OpenMoko from my grasp lept :[ Jun 28 13:24:49 Smash? Jun 28 13:25:58 (script) http://www.openmoko.com changed: sizeof(diff -u)=10300 Jun 28 13:26:31 oh, they added announce there Jun 28 13:26:41 it was starting to get outdated ;-) Jun 28 13:30:58 (script) http://www.openmoko.com changed: sizeof(diff -u)=2054 Jun 28 13:34:21 that change could be marked with "m" (spaces added, lower case and similar) Jun 28 13:34:42 SpeedEvil, re SIM-only. yes that would be an excellent deal, at 15 a month. i shall investigate this as well Jun 28 13:35:03 webjames: I don't think they do - the wording on the website was ambiguous. Jun 28 13:35:22 However. I think I'm going to go with the PAYG + buying days here and there. Jun 28 13:36:00 I'm unlikely to use it mobile more than 14 days/mo. Jun 28 13:36:31 SpeedEvil, 3 had live support which answered many of my questions i may ring t mobile up and ask Jun 28 13:36:58 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Minor correction Jun 28 13:37:07 OMG - $150! Jun 28 13:37:10 (joking) Jun 28 13:37:33 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Hardware:AGPS]] Jun 28 13:38:18 ( s/www.openmoko.com/openmoko.com/ in script because announcement refers to that site, doubt this has any real effect though ) Jun 28 13:40:10 i suppose there would be no discount on P2 to ones who bought P1 Jun 28 13:40:48 thresh: that's what the announcement says Jun 28 13:41:04 thresh: instead the GTA01 (P1) has been made cheaper Jun 28 13:41:16 oh, i misread Jun 28 13:41:34 thanks. Jun 28 13:42:12 SpeedEvil: Just too expensive at 450 Jun 28 13:42:49 that is a lot.. Jun 28 13:45:13 (script) openmoko-announce: Sean Moss-Pultz [openmoko-announce] Minor correction Jun 28 13:45:21 ~change 450 usd to pln Jun 28 13:46:05 !google 450 usd to pln Jun 28 13:46:05 450 U.S. dollars = 1 268.09858 Polish zloty Jun 28 13:47:06 !google 450 usd to bars of cold-pressed-latinum Jun 28 13:47:08 Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 Jun 28 13:47:21 counter_msg (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 28 13:47:21 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in Jun 28 13:47:39 aloril: Nice trigger that diffs openmoko.com :) Jun 28 13:48:11 (above minor correction added to counter page) Jun 28 13:48:37 CM: thanks, hopefully that page is not made dynamic (but I should awake and fix it if it happens ;-) Jun 28 13:48:45 Hehe Jun 28 13:49:51 at least everybody here will notice if it spams every 5 minutes after webshop opens ;-) Jun 28 13:52:53 !google 450 usd to xau Jun 28 13:52:55 Images @ http://images.google.com/images?um=1 | Exchange Rates - 1998 - Daily series @ http://www.bnro.ro/En/Info/Istoric/Curs_z1998.asp%20class=l | SIMPLICITY Riding Mower Grounds Care Nor @ http://www.equipmentlocator.com/asp/browse/loc/na-en/con/4/industry/gc/type/74/make/simplicity/model/viewall/%20class=l Jun 28 13:53:13 xau is a gold ounce Jun 28 13:53:44 didnt work Jun 28 13:58:03 from community mailing list: Sony Ericsson leaves smartphone sufferers spitting: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/28/sony_ericsson_firmware_snub/ Jun 28 13:58:23 ref. earlier, $450 for GTA02 is _not_ a lot, or expensive, IMAO Jun 28 13:58:55 A bit more than expected, but not bad. Jun 28 13:59:06 you all whined for wifi, now pay for it ;P Jun 28 13:59:13 well, out of pocket, for a college student... that's a bit steep Jun 28 13:59:25 I'm probably stil gonna do it, but it's up there Jun 28 14:00:56 mjr: you're right!# Jun 28 14:01:44 it has CPU upgrade and GPU too: those matter, especially later one could enable various interesting things Jun 28 14:02:06 summatusmentis, 'course there are situations where affording $450 is hard. Point being rather that for the device, it's not a lot. Jun 28 14:04:05 mjr: yeah, I guess that's true. I'm not overly familiar with 'unsubsidized' prices for phones, as I live in the US, and all companies want to sell you a contract. I know that my Zaurus 3200 was ~$550, so $450 isn't terrible Jun 28 14:05:13 ?Lorphos Jun 28 14:06:25 summatusmentis: go to nokia.com then and look at prices Jun 28 14:07:30 halp! Can't build pulseaudio -- do_install gives me something like: .../temp/run.do_install.25528: 692: do_install: not found Jun 28 14:07:50 (I can pastebin the whole thing if it helps) Jun 28 14:11:03 hi -- has there been any news on when we might see the wifi 802.11g stuff, scheduled IIUC for the mass-market GTA02? I *really* want wifi... Jun 28 14:11:04 GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jun 28 14:11:29 nexus10: october Jun 28 14:12:07 cjb: ok, so we won't see a wifi-capable device till the consumer product is ready to ship? Jun 28 14:12:24 nexus10: it's looking like ir Jun 28 14:12:25 it* Jun 28 14:12:53 ok, tx all -- I'll have to learn patience ;-) Jun 28 14:12:53 nexus10: I think hope is that software is ready when hardware is ready ;-) Jun 28 14:13:02 lol Jun 28 14:13:18 aloril: do you really expect that many more issues w/ the updated hardware? Jun 28 14:13:38 it was excepted that hardware for GTA02 could take some time Jun 28 14:14:11 summatusmentis: hard to say, but it could take some time and some of components are under testing Jun 28 14:14:51 aloril: well, of course, but there's not _that_ much being added. Maybe this is my own ignorace as to manufacturing Jun 28 14:15:07 3 months for the complete software-stack seems "optimistic" to me :) Jun 28 14:15:17 given the current state.. Jun 28 14:15:31 well, I don't know about hardware manufacturing either, but based on what happened with GTA01* it seems every hardware spin is month or so Jun 28 14:15:48 gta01's design was outsourced Jun 28 14:15:56 gta02 has been designed in-house Jun 28 14:16:04 ah, that could speed up things Jun 28 14:16:34 maybe October happens then hmm.. Jun 28 14:17:39 also they have now much more resources (based on latest announce) Jun 28 14:19:28 slider_: Who knows - pump in lots extra funding - and it might happen. Jun 28 14:20:05 if GTA01B_v4 sells well -> more outside development Jun 28 14:20:30 also I guess they might hire more good hackers to work on software (like RedHat, etc.. have done) Jun 28 14:20:43 and OpenMoko has done with current code team Jun 28 14:20:51 engfeh, my problem is on bugzilla. Why didn't I find it yesterday? :-( Jun 28 14:21:09 sorry Jun 28 14:23:23 For example - 50K for a complete phase 1 app, ... Jun 28 14:24:30 hell, if that kind of money were being offered, i'd break down, buy a GTA01, and learn to write an app Jun 28 14:24:42 * summatusmentis != 'good hacker' Jun 28 14:25:15 They would need some sort of arbitration process. Jun 28 14:25:20 And way of dividing funding. Jun 28 14:25:40 SpeedEvil: of course of course Jun 28 14:26:12 I'm not sure how good I am, but they're getting my resume anyway, as soon as they have a "jobs" page or something like that :-) Jun 28 14:27:40 lol, my resume consists of reformatting computers, web maintainence, and lifeguarding. Not the most impressive in the world Jun 28 14:28:36 so.. is the neo1973 indeed going from Mini USB to Micro USB? Jun 28 14:29:00 what? Jun 28 14:29:26 what in the world is Mirco USB? Jun 28 14:29:27 Seans announcement mentions Micro USB Jun 28 14:29:45 it's the current small form factor usb plug. mini usb is obsolete Jun 28 14:30:24 * summatusmentis has never heard of Micro USB, wikipedia Jun 28 14:30:43 * dottedmag .oO(hehe. new cables, again?) Jun 28 14:31:09 * mjr guesses the micro USB is a typo Jun 28 14:31:18 since the advanced kit talks about mini Jun 28 14:32:42 see: http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/01/micro-usb-specs-released/ and http://www.dontronics-shop.com/product.php?productid=16141 Jun 28 14:32:43 anyway, Mini USB was deprecated for new devices on May 25th Jun 28 14:33:18 Lorphos: really? Jun 28 14:34:04 there's a link to the announcement at http://www.usb.org/developers Jun 28 14:34:48 Apparently Micro USB has been designed for more insertions before breaking Jun 28 14:35:15 oooo: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/05/mobile-phones-to-adopt-smaller-micro-usb-connector/ Jun 28 14:35:22 yeah aparently 10,000 Jun 28 14:36:11 also on that page read the 1st comment Jun 28 14:36:17 sounds a good idea to me! Jun 28 14:36:37 comment from 'bill' Jun 28 14:40:39 Stupid question probably...I finally got the Moko build environment setup on my computer and it looks to be running well ...but how do you get a keyboard to show up? Jun 28 14:41:39 click on gray square near upper left corner Jun 28 14:41:39 click on the top white area Jun 28 14:41:52 Why is it white btw? Jun 28 14:42:05 Also, does the stroke thing work at all? Jun 28 14:42:24 The one you get in the drop-down menu when you click on the right sight of that gray thing Jun 28 14:44:17 Hrm, not seeing this top white area or gray square...top of the screen is a orange->black gradient with an OpenMoko icon in the upper left Jun 28 14:45:42 This micro-SD seems nice: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/27/tosh_4gb_msdhc/ Jun 28 14:47:46 yummy; has anyone gotten their hands onto a microSDHC card to try in practice with the Neo yet, tho? Jun 28 14:48:13 mjr: the neo is shipped with one Jun 28 14:48:18 no Jun 28 14:48:28 the neo is shipped with 2x512 microSD (no HC!) cards Jun 28 14:48:32 oops, yes. Jun 28 14:48:36 afaik microSDHC-cards are still not available (world wide) Jun 28 14:48:36 missed the HC. I see. Jun 28 14:48:57 there are 2-3 different SDHC-cards, but it seems there is no microSDHC yet Jun 28 14:49:12 thomasg__: only the "advanced" package is shipped with 2x512, the "normal" package comes with only one Jun 28 14:49:36 yeah, that 2x was a typo in the original announce; Sean corrected it a bit later Jun 28 14:50:06 ah, k Jun 28 14:50:34 so or so, the scope of delivery is great for this price! Jun 28 14:57:21 What's the flash on the v1? Jun 28 14:57:33 It says v2 will have 256MB Jun 28 14:57:49 GTA01: 64MB flash Jun 28 14:58:20 Thanks Jun 28 14:58:29 What will need to be stored on the flash, any info yet? Jun 28 14:58:36 detailed information of GTA01B_v4: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware Jun 28 14:58:48 daxxar: openmoko will be stored on the flash :) Jun 28 14:59:07 The framework and the kernel? Jun 28 14:59:07 daxxar: I think you can boot from microSD too, so nothing is 'needed' ;-) Jun 28 14:59:13 I don't think much _needs_ to be on the flash Jun 28 14:59:13 aloril: Ah, cool. Jun 28 14:59:14 yeah Jun 28 14:59:25 aloril: the bootloader certainly is ;) Jun 28 14:59:44 daxxar: in shipping configuration openmoko distribution must fit completely on flash I think Jun 28 15:00:06 yeah, it really does Jun 28 15:00:29 but what you do with it after, that's another story Jun 28 15:00:50 putting any OS part of microSD is really only for developers/hackes (it being by default FAT{16,32}) Jun 28 15:01:30 Hm, I guess the SD will be accessible as a 'mass storage device' from the PC? Jun 28 15:01:31 is it? FAT? Jun 28 15:01:33 mrj: Heh.. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/28/sandisk_announces_8gb_microsdhc/ Jun 28 15:01:39 :-D Jun 28 15:01:52 mjr: usually *SD cards become formatted as FAT ;-) Jun 28 15:02:14 8GB in a micro is truly impressive Jun 28 15:02:18 aloril, yeah but I'm pretty much assuming it'd be reformatted in a jiffy... Jun 28 15:02:38 you do want to be able to install applications and stuff on the SD as well Jun 28 15:03:01 heck, moko could detect an empty FAT and reformat on the fly Jun 28 15:03:07 mjr: of course, but I'm talking about "Mom and Dad" end user that takes it out and puts it to Her/His Windows PC card reader .. Jun 28 15:03:36 gah! after 9 hours of compiling openmoko, the 8gb partition filled up. Jun 28 15:03:43 and they would probably use it for images, videos, etc.. where it matters less Jun 28 15:04:09 CM: it is impressive, but until now they only announce. they announced a 4gb microSDHC in the early 2007 but it's not available until now... Jun 28 15:04:35 don-o: put INHERIT += "rm_work" into local.conf :) Jun 28 15:05:13 slider_: O RLY? whats that do? Jun 28 15:05:14 daxxar, it's possible to do that; shouldn't happen automatically though, as the microsd would have to be unmounted from Neo first Jun 28 15:05:25 mjr: personally I'll probably partition it 2 parts: one for system and one for home (and not really use internal flash at all) Jun 28 15:05:37 mjr: Ah, okay. Jun 28 15:06:18 well, maybe it could happen automatically. At least when nothing on the card is in use. Jun 28 15:06:28 Well, I was just thinking; it would need to be fat32 if it's usb mass storage, right? (I mean, to be accessible from win32 without ext2fsd or whats-its-name) But if that's not default behaviour, I guess I'll put mine to ext2 or something else. Jun 28 15:06:39 mjr: it could automatically unmount or ... well virtual storage is harder because access is low level Jun 28 15:06:43 anyway, the kernel does support playing at usb mass storage, and usb network device, and stuff Jun 28 15:06:54 don-o: it'll remove the temp-files from the complete packages which saves a lot of space Jun 28 15:07:14 Oh well, can't wait till july 9th. :-) Jun 28 15:07:15 aloril, it would be cool to have a virtual FAT there, using ext3 as backend ;) Jun 28 15:07:44 but yeah, not exactly trivial Jun 28 15:07:56 wow what have i missed Jun 28 15:07:56 :D Jun 28 15:08:25 mjr: remember talk about internet connection trough virtual mass storage in past at ML? that was cool idea Jun 28 15:08:25 Too bad I'll have to shell out $450 extra for the cool hardware in october. Jun 28 15:08:26 ruimoreir1, the mass market revision will have a V8 and an FPGA Jun 28 15:08:28 * Stephmw returns from his long meeting Jun 28 15:08:41 Btw, isn't ext2 recommended for flash filesystems that have "limited" writes? Jun 28 15:09:18 since 2.6.21 there should be some new flash-optimated filesystems in the kernel Jun 28 15:09:21 daxxar, it would stress the microsd a bit less, yes, but fast bootup on crash is nice... Jun 28 15:09:28 and when willl p2 phones start selling ? Jun 28 15:09:36 Oct Jun 28 15:09:37 (reread file and it will have different content -> communication possible with virtual mass storage device) Jun 28 15:09:52 mjr: Mkay. :-) Jun 28 15:09:57 * don-o snickers Jun 28 15:10:02 Do the numbers on microSD endurance. Jun 28 15:10:04 thomasg__: Like what? :-) Jun 28 15:10:20 It's not that bad actually - assuming wear leveling mostly works. Jun 28 15:10:34 yeah, you probably toss a microSD anyway before it wears out... Jun 28 15:10:39 Indeed. Jun 28 15:11:57 daxxar, don't know, this are new filesystems, developed for flash-devices. download the kernel sources and look :) still have 2.6.19 here Jun 28 15:12:02 A million block SD - with a hundred thousand writes per block. That's a million writes/second for a day, or a thousand for 3 years. Jun 28 15:12:18 thomasg__: Okay, cool, will be neat. :-) Jun 28 15:12:42 SpeedEvil: Haa, cool. :-D Jun 28 15:12:46 Oh well, later. :-) Jun 28 15:13:12 anyone can buy for $300, starting July 9. -> is this true ? Jun 28 15:13:17 yes Jun 28 15:13:20 wow Jun 28 15:13:29 ruimoreir1, to the best of our, and Sean's, knowledge Jun 28 15:13:37 :D:D:D:D Jun 28 15:13:53 ruimoreir1: but you cant complain about software ;D Jun 28 15:14:02 no i wont :D Jun 28 15:14:25 daxxar, note that thomasg__ is talking about filesystems that use a plain flash and do wear-leveling and stuff themselves; they're appropriate for the internal flash, but not really for microsd, which does wear-leveling itself Jun 28 15:14:26 Probably. Jun 28 15:14:59 The quality of wear-leveling on microSD is a concern though. Jun 28 15:15:20 this filesystems are optimated to do as less writes per block as possible Jun 28 15:15:51 Yeah. Jun 28 15:16:03 SpeedEvil, well, one can't really correct for that from the outside. Unless it uses a really funky scheme. Jun 28 15:16:14 (funky and known) Jun 28 15:16:28 ruimoreir1: see openmoko.com for whole announcement Jun 28 15:17:46 home now Jun 28 15:18:55 hey folks, I'm having trouble figuring out what the target for the base and the advanced kits Jun 28 15:19:31 juco: in that case get base kit Jun 28 15:19:38 that's what I was thinking Jun 28 15:19:55 if I just want to write applications for the phone, then the base is all I need, right? Jun 28 15:20:00 yeah Jun 28 15:20:02 Yes. Jun 28 15:20:04 the debug board would be for driver development? Jun 28 15:20:07 no Jun 28 15:20:16 you only really need the advanced kit if you plan on doing bootloader or kernel dev Jun 28 15:20:19 u-boot development is the only thing you need it for. Jun 28 15:20:29 This is equivalent to the PC 'bios'. Jun 28 15:20:35 You don't need it for kernel dev. Jun 28 15:20:42 oh, great Jun 28 15:20:49 juco: advanced kit has is needed if: 1) you flash wrong u-boot and brick your device 2) need JTAG for other low level development stuff 3) you want host usb cable and don't buy it elsewhere ;-) Jun 28 15:21:02 SpeedEvil: ...unless you decide to mess with the flash and end up overwriting your bootloader :) Jun 28 15:21:09 Yeah. Jun 28 15:21:09 would you mind if I updated the 1973 wiki page with this info? Jun 28 15:21:17 juco: just do it! Jun 28 15:21:22 juco: what info? Jun 28 15:21:26 juco: but I think it's there Jun 28 15:21:47 hmm, I can't find it Jun 28 15:22:00 it would be nice if it was linked from the 1973 page Jun 28 15:22:32 pjz: well.. you need to read between lines to see it in [[Neo1973]] page ;-) Jun 28 15:22:53 (that getting dirty means u-boot or other low level stuff ...) Jun 28 15:23:19 Oh - I've added it Jun 28 15:23:33 ha someone just added it Jun 28 15:23:45 I see Jun 28 15:23:46 ok Jun 28 15:24:37 thanks Jun 28 15:25:12 so what happens if someone bricks a device? Jun 28 15:25:19 and doesn't have the debug board Jun 28 15:25:22 SpeedEvil: or maybe advanced kernel hacking (which most kernel hackers won't be doing I guess) Jun 28 15:25:41 juco: then you find somebody with debug board ;-) Jun 28 15:25:58 WTF KIND OF DATA PLAN IS $65 FOR UNLIMITED ACCESS????? Jun 28 15:26:15 i have 10 euros/month for unlimited data Jun 28 15:26:23 * summatusmentis mutters about stupid backwards hicks in western MN Jun 28 15:26:40 guaqua: yeah, $65 + whatever voice costs! Jun 28 15:26:42 juco: should not happen as long as you either: 1) don't flash u-boot 2) make absolutely sure you flash right one Jun 28 15:27:19 aloril, I just assumed that new u-boot versions would come out that I will want to flash Jun 28 15:27:27 perhaps it is simple enough that that is unlikely? Jun 28 15:28:08 hmm I think recent u-boot has some kind of check for 'wrong version' Jun 28 15:28:08 summatusmentis, you can get unlimited data with at&t for $20/month Jun 28 15:28:10 It's unlikely. Jun 28 15:28:15 wait... that's w/ a data card... I don't WANT a data card Jun 28 15:28:16 juco, afaik, uboot should be upgraded only if something goes wrong..very very wrong...if aint broke dont fix it :) Jun 28 15:28:17 cool Jun 28 15:28:20 How often do you upgrade your PC BIOS. Jun 28 15:28:31 And you can upgrade u-boot. Jun 28 15:28:40 juco: but where I'm gonna be at&t roams, it's western MN, 850MHz range Jun 28 15:28:40 It's just if it goes wrong, you need the debug board. Jun 28 15:28:49 Or to send to someone with Jun 28 15:29:01 summatusmentis, at&t should have nationwide coverage without roaming on the 850 band Jun 28 15:29:04 anyway, I have seen in this channel and ML surprisingly often people flashing wrong u-boot .. (and I'm talking about people that know their stuff) Jun 28 15:29:26 juco: ok, I guess that's true... hrm... Jun 28 15:29:39 aloril: I don't see that it's needed for any kernel hacking - it might be a nice add-on, but it's not needed anymore than you need JTAG access to your PC. Jun 28 15:29:41 the $20 is with a contract though Jun 28 15:29:48 and their voice contracts are rather pricey Jun 28 15:29:51 any rumours regarding warranty and stuff?, Jun 28 15:30:11 SpeedEvil: not really needed, but I have seen claims that on some level stuff it helps Jun 28 15:30:13 Best here (uk) is around $(us)48/mo Jun 28 15:31:02 With 1G/mo fair use limit Jun 28 15:31:46 I don't think any carrier in the US announces the limits on their "unlimited" plans Jun 28 15:31:58 juco: that's the SmartPhone connect plan right? Jun 28 15:32:07 yeah Jun 28 15:32:12 In the UK they tend to spell it out. Jun 28 15:32:25 probably something to do with truth in advertising Jun 28 15:32:34 If only because a recent decision from the Advertising Standards Agency has implications for them if they don't. Jun 28 15:32:37 in germany you can get unlimted traffic (data only) for about $US60 Jun 28 15:32:47 juco: will they let me sign up for the SmartPhone plan, if the phone I get through them isn't a smartphone? or can I just bring my neo there and be like, this is the phone I want to use Jun 28 15:32:51 juco: Verizon got slammed for their hidden 5GB limit, Sprint doesn't have one, not sure about the rest. Jun 28 15:33:03 Namely that 'unlimited' can mean limited - if there are additional terms and conditions. Jun 28 15:33:03 but this $60 means you also have umts with hsdpa 3.6 mbit Jun 28 15:33:11 summatusmentis, you don't need a "smart phone" Jun 28 15:33:16 and it is really unlimited :) Jun 28 15:33:18 you can get a voice contract with no data Jun 28 15:33:37 and then add the $20/month "media connect unlimited" Jun 28 15:33:40 Big news today, whoa. Cheered me up in the morning. Jun 28 15:33:43 thomasg__: is it in fact unlimited though. I think you will find they get upset if you max it out 24*7 Jun 28 15:34:06 juco: can that then be used for tethering? Jun 28 15:34:15 SpeedEvil, before a year I had a internet provider who wanted to kick me :) Jun 28 15:34:15 they don't have any way of checking Jun 28 15:34:31 thomasg__: interneet is a _very_ different place from mobile. Jun 28 15:34:37 Mobile spectrum is _expensive_ Jun 28 15:34:45 I know that :) Jun 28 15:34:55 MEdia(TM) Max 200 Bundle Jun 28 15:34:59 I'm working for one of the biggest mobile provider Jun 28 15:35:01 is $20/month Jun 28 15:35:04 ok cool. So I could get 450 voice and unlimited mobile data for $60, which is less than the unlimited data cost w/ the other people Jun 28 15:35:14 NLIMITED: Cellular Video & MEdia™ Net. Plus 200 Text, Video, Picture, Instant Messages (5cents/add'l). Jun 28 15:35:16 what does Max 200 mean? Jun 28 15:35:20 txt Jun 28 15:35:24 and mms Jun 28 15:35:37 ouch, only 200 txt... hrm Jun 28 15:35:56 $5 extra a month for unlimited with AT&T Jun 28 15:36:05 $10 extra a month for unlimited Jun 28 15:36:16 what? Jun 28 15:36:23 sms/mms Jun 28 15:36:27 oh, on at&t's network, got it Jun 28 15:36:38 that's what the w/ at&t meant Jun 28 15:36:46 MEdia(TM) Max Unlimited Bundle Jun 28 15:36:49 $40/month Jun 28 15:37:04 so $20/month extra for unlimted messaging Jun 28 15:37:24 that's dumb, I'd probably just go the $10 extra... hrm Jun 28 15:37:30 or MEdia(TM) Max 1500 Bundle Jun 28 15:37:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Neo1973/pl]] [[Development_resources/it]] Jun 28 15:37:35 for $30 Jun 28 15:37:39 unlimited data Jun 28 15:37:42 1500 messages Jun 28 15:38:04 plus the prices they quote are misleading Jun 28 15:38:11 misleading? how so? Jun 28 15:38:13 AT&T adds make believe "fees" on to your bill Jun 28 15:38:41 ugh :-/ Jun 28 15:38:48 here, I'll tell you what mine are Jun 28 15:39:27 extra $20/month or something I'm sure Jun 28 15:39:41 so pay "$95" Jun 28 15:40:05 and they add an extra $6.63 to that Jun 28 15:40:17 what for? Jun 28 15:40:29 my wife's line, on the same plan, is $14, and they add an extra $1.67 to that Jun 28 15:40:36 "GOVT FEES & Jun 28 15:40:36 TAXES" Jun 28 15:40:42 is what they call it Jun 28 15:40:49 but it isn't Jun 28 15:41:11 services aren't subject to tax in my state Jun 28 15:41:30 so whatever they put in that column is not required, its just added by AT&T to charge more money Jun 28 15:42:02 :-/ Jun 28 15:42:31 FEDERAL UNIVERSAL SERVICE CHARGE 2.10 Jun 28 15:42:31 * summatusmentis wonders about T-Mobile Jun 28 15:42:39 REGULATORY COST RECOVERY CHARGE 0.20 Jun 28 15:42:48 TELCOM RELAY SERVICE SURCHARGE 0.11 Jun 28 15:42:56 STATE TELECOMMUNICATIONS SALES TAX 5.93 Jun 28 15:43:02 911 SERVICE FEE 0.70 Jun 28 15:43:12 911 Service fee makes sense Jun 28 15:43:17 so they are claiming there is sales tax Jun 28 15:43:19 no it doesn't Jun 28 15:43:33 does anyone here own a neo 1973 ? Jun 28 15:43:35 well sure, it's finding your cell Jun 28 15:43:36 its not like I can opt out of it Jun 28 15:43:37 yes, it does Jun 28 15:43:40 its part of the cost of the plan Jun 28 15:43:48 atherwise 911 is gettng DoSed by prank callers Jun 28 15:44:02 no, that's not for me calling it Jun 28 15:44:27 juco: T-Mobile is sounding better and better Jun 28 15:44:37 yeah Jun 28 15:44:42 if it is available in your area Jun 28 15:44:46 they won't sell it here Jun 28 15:44:47 summatusmentis: i cant even find a voice+data plan on tmobile.com Jun 28 15:44:48 I can get it Jun 28 15:44:52 but I have to buy it in another state Jun 28 15:45:11 which means I have a long distance area code Jun 28 15:45:22 see, the thing is, nothing is directly available in the area where i'll be Jun 28 15:45:32 i thought i was getting screwed by my telco, but i guess this is nothing compared to the stuff you have over there :D Jun 28 15:45:33 juco: arent areacodes pretty much meaningless now? i never think of local/longdistance anymore Jun 28 15:45:35 it's available 3 hours away, in the same state, but not in that ara Jun 28 15:45:47 don-o: on a cell, yeah Jun 28 15:45:47 have a nice evening guys Jun 28 15:45:48 ah Jun 28 15:45:54 bye hrw|gone Jun 28 15:45:59 * ewon reads the announcement on openmoko.com with glee Jun 28 15:46:03 guaqua, you think US cell phone companies are bad, you should see landlines Jun 28 15:46:16 :S Jun 28 15:46:31 unlimited web on T-mobile phone, $6 http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/addons/services/TZonesGroup.aspx?osid=28037040-D2E8-4498-88D8-5B71D32E9BBF&tp=Svc_Tab_TZones&tsp=Svc_Sub_WebApps Jun 28 15:47:05 yeah, you can't use that with a neo Jun 28 15:47:12 I saw that. I just switched to T-Mobile. Jun 28 15:47:16 its through a special proxy Jun 28 15:47:26 I read that you can just use the proxy if you have the info. Jun 28 15:47:28 you might be able to get the neo to work with it Jun 28 15:47:31 I don't recall the URL. Jun 28 15:47:38 yeah, it might work Jun 28 15:47:40 (that made such a claim that you can just use the proxy) Jun 28 15:48:48 oh, cool Jun 28 15:49:03 t-mobile us does seem to have good plans Jun 28 15:49:13 better than the big carriers Jun 28 15:49:30 and I believe they use the at&t towers for nationwide service Jun 28 15:49:50 excellent, GTA02 will be out nicely in time for my move to the US Jun 28 15:49:54 \o/ Jun 28 15:50:02 hmm, to buy the non-wifi one or not.....argh Jun 28 15:50:22 I'm going to wait for the wifi one Jun 28 15:50:35 especially if it has an atheros chipset that can do packet injection :) Jun 28 15:50:49 I whish t-mobile germany's services was as cheap as t-mobile us' are Jun 28 15:52:04 paulproteus: looking for proxy info? http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/T-Mobile_Data Jun 28 15:54:02 juco: the other option is the blackberry plan w/ tmobile, which apparently can be used on a dif. device Jun 28 15:57:48 niiiice Jun 28 15:59:09 oo Jun 28 15:59:39 yaaay netsplit Jun 28 15:59:39 welcome back people Jun 28 15:59:54 does anyone have a neo with them, want to check if a piece of code works? Jun 28 15:59:59 s/?/. Jun 28 16:00:31 no, I don't get mine til that batch of 400 or 600 ships :( Jun 28 16:01:05 Sup3rkiddo: there are some devs around, I don't know if they'll want to test or not though Jun 28 16:01:28 I love surviving netsplits Jun 28 16:01:31 summatusmentis, no point in pestering em really Jun 28 16:02:10 Sup3rkiddo: the devs are the only one's who'll have one yet. They aren't available for general sale until Jul. 9 Jun 28 16:02:54 summatusmentis, ah ok..i was thinking some lucky blokes outside the core team got their machines as well Jun 28 16:03:07 mjr: Oh, right. Does the controller do it? (the sd-flash controller) Jun 28 16:03:23 juco, paulproteus: looking at that... I wonder if someone needs to pay money for anything more than the $6/mo thing on tmobile Jun 28 16:03:54 Sup3rkiddo: well, anyone who's been doing major dev work got a free moko. Jun 28 16:04:02 but other than that, noone has one Jun 28 16:04:22 yeah so logically some of them might be free ;) Jun 28 16:05:02 Sup3rkiddo: I don't follow your logic... Jun 28 16:05:33 summatusmentis, never mind..that *was* a bad logic...half asleep here Jun 28 16:06:17 lol, ok Jun 28 16:06:49 summatusmentis, have you by any chance been playing with libgsmd code? Jun 28 16:08:01 Sup3rkiddo: nope, not really a coder Jun 28 16:08:21 mickeyl: hello, I'm just curious, the video playing in "Moko Ninjustu" video - what was format of the video being played? Jun 28 16:08:23 lrg: ping Jun 28 16:08:48 (although the real question is whether re-encoding the video can't help neo to perform better) Jun 28 16:08:48 summatusmentis, hmm ok...i call myself a coder over here Jun 28 16:09:20 Sup3rkiddo: I do some minimal coding, but I have no background at all Jun 28 16:10:04 :) Jun 28 16:12:08 holtmann: pong Jun 28 16:14:32 lrg: About the Codec<->Bluetooth interaction. Still not getting this working. Jun 28 16:15:43 holtmann: can you send me a codec register dump when you give it a try next. sys/devices/platform/soc-audio/codec_reg. Jun 28 16:17:13 holtmann: best to email it as I'll need to send to XorA Jun 28 16:19:26 can any one enlighten me if this piece of code will work, it build fine and installs fine, but i want to know if it will work..http://rafb.net/p/rffQPU31.html thanks Jun 28 16:19:31 *builds Jun 28 16:22:14 lrg: Will take some time to get the headset application up and running again. Anything you tell from the current settings without the running software. Or what I should look out for. Jun 28 16:24:30 summatusmentis, You mean, doing VoIP over their proxy? Jun 28 16:24:33 bye * Jun 28 16:24:51 paulproteus: no, just data in general Jun 28 16:24:58 summatusmentis, Oh, okay. Jun 28 16:25:01 holtmann: it's hard to tell atm as I don't have access to a BT headset, I think it's probably one of the following:- wrong codec path, voice DAI not setup, BT not sending PCM in expected format, Jun 28 16:25:10 Yeah, I think I might go try that in a couple of weeks, summatusmentis! Jun 28 16:25:18 obviously you'd have to pay voice, but if you're just paying the $6 for the proxy data... Jun 28 16:25:25 paulproteus: I'll be interested to see if it workd Jun 28 16:25:26 works* Jun 28 16:25:37 holtmann: I'll be able to compare the reg dump against my expected values. Jun 28 16:26:58 Is it enough to call alstctl -f /etc/alsa/stereoout.state restore and the the difference. Jun 28 16:27:29 hi all Jun 28 16:27:50 holtmann: I'm not 00% sure as XorA wrote all the state files. He's back in tomorrow Jun 28 16:27:54 100% Jun 28 16:28:45 Can you remind him to get me a state file for routing either microphone or speaker to the PCM line of the Bluetooth chip. This would help with testing since I don't have a unit with a valid GSM SIM with me. Jun 28 16:29:29 holtmann: will do Jun 28 16:29:41 holtmann, If you want I can mail you a SIM for either Vodafone in Italy or Orange in the UK. Jun 28 16:29:52 (I was just in both countries for a few days and bought SIMs but am now back in the US.) Jun 28 16:30:43 I would need one for Canada currently. However debugging with the speaker or microphone is simpler since I don't need a working GSM subsystem. Jun 28 16:31:25 in Ireland can pick up a pay-as-you-go sim card for 10eur or so, in some cases free, is such a thing not available in Canada? Jun 28 16:31:43 holtmann, It's likely that the Vodafone SIM will work since it worked for me in the US (it picked up T-Mobile as roaming), but if you don't need it then no worries. Jun 28 16:44:21 Is there 3g in openmoko? Jun 28 16:44:53 is there (gsm)3g in the USA? Jun 28 16:45:17 dunno Jun 28 16:45:42 Anyone feel like helping me understand a phone Internet (non-OpenMoko) thing? Jun 28 16:46:25 Basheri: i think you're more likely to get an answer if you ask about GPRS("2g") and EDGE ("2.5g") Jun 28 16:47:13 so no 3g i assume ::PP Jun 28 16:47:27 paulproteus: ? Jun 28 16:47:39 Basheri: seeing as how we cant even answer what 3G is, it doesnt make sense to ask if the neo has it. :) Jun 28 16:47:39 Well that sucks =( Jun 28 16:48:05 :DDDD Jun 28 16:48:10 Basheri, iirc T-Mobile was going to unveil some faster Internet access over GSM but I don't recall the details. Jun 28 16:48:46 guaqua, I just signed up for T-MobileWeb (this $6/mo proxied Internet access) and my Motorola V180 has a USB cable, and it creates /dev/ttyACM0 when I plug it in. If I "dial" as per http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/Tether_with_Linux , would that be using my phone as a modem (sounds like a bad idea) or would it use my existing Internet access (sounds like a good idea)? Jun 28 16:49:14 depends on how you route it Jun 28 16:50:13 here (in finland) is quite nice 3g-network Jun 28 16:50:31 well, it's getting better and better Jun 28 16:51:02 Ireland has reasonable 3G coverage, but is murderously expensive Jun 28 16:51:05 if the phones just were cheaper Jun 28 16:51:13 ewon: what sort of "3G"? Jun 28 16:51:28 don-o: good question - EDGE I think Jun 28 16:51:41 UMTS here <3 Jun 28 16:52:06 and very reasonable prices Jun 28 16:52:21 paulproteus: looking at that tutorial, it looks as though you setup where you're dialing to Jun 28 16:53:23 "To alleviate this confusion and to highlight the backward compatibility of the system with second generation GSM, the GSM Association now refers to the range of high-speed multimedia services that can be delivered to users via mobile networks using UMTS/W-CDMA systems such as 3GSM, rather than simply the air interface technology." (gsmworld.com) Jun 28 16:54:36 don-o: neither of which are available in the US except in extremely popluated areas Jun 28 16:54:46 i would very much like to see UMTS support in moko/neo Jun 28 16:55:01 Basheri: afaik, there are no plans for UMTS in the neo Jun 28 16:55:13 =( Jun 28 16:55:14 it's expensive to build umts into a phone Jun 28 16:55:20 true Jun 28 16:55:33 fair enough Jun 28 16:55:53 how much bandwidth do you need on a phone? Jun 28 16:55:55 expensive to ship phones that support it, yes (stupid patents/royalties) Jun 28 16:56:05 ewon: really depends Jun 28 16:56:26 personally, anything that has enough bw to ensure smooth web browsing and ssh is enough - although people will probably want vid streaming etc as well Jun 28 16:56:30 i'd be happy with Jun 28 16:56:33 512 kbps Jun 28 16:56:45 that's enough for any streaming video Jun 28 16:56:45 although I've yet to see a 3G connection in ireland with latency of <100ms Jun 28 16:56:46 ewon: you'd need edge at least Jun 28 16:56:53 so ssh can get laggy Jun 28 16:57:01 is there even going to be EDGE available in the neo? Jun 28 16:57:14 summatusmentis: once, yes Jun 28 16:57:26 mmp: what? once? Jun 28 16:57:28 max. 2 Mbit/s 54,90 €/kk** Jun 28 16:57:28 :DDD Jun 28 16:58:00 Basheri: expensive :| Jun 28 16:58:05 indeed Jun 28 16:58:22 €/kk** ? Jun 28 16:58:28 per month Jun 28 16:58:31 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8574715471341709984&q=openmoko&total=12&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1 Jun 28 16:58:31 @ 52:50, we are defently going 3g =D Jun 28 16:58:38 summatusmentis: I believe I read something about it... Jun 28 16:58:46 just can't find it right now... Jun 28 16:58:51 guaqua: how is 'kk' 'per month' then? :P Jun 28 16:59:13 kk is an abbreviation for kuukausi, which translates to month in english Jun 28 16:59:14 summatusmentis: but I'm not sure whether it wasn't UMTS... Jun 28 16:59:30 guaqua: thnx for the info :) Jun 28 16:59:31 mmp: I didn't think there was gonna be anything above GPRS in the neo Jun 28 16:59:52 there isn't in neo 1973 Jun 28 17:00:03 summatusmentis: don't take my words too seriously, though:) Jun 28 17:00:16 mmp: :-P Jun 28 17:00:34 In next hw revisions, maybe... Jun 28 17:00:42 maybe in GTA02 Jun 28 17:00:47 but still uncertain Jun 28 17:01:03 there was a plan to go EDGE in P2 or P1.5 Jun 28 17:01:03 err? Jun 28 17:01:04 summatusmentis: ahh, that was 3g what I read about... Jun 28 17:01:26 too bad EDGE is useless here Jun 28 17:01:29 (netherlands) Jun 28 17:01:39 well, umts is useless in many countries, too Jun 28 17:01:51 in some also gsm is :) Jun 28 17:01:57 GPRS failsafe can save a day, though:) Jun 28 17:02:28 GPRS isn't gonna be fast enough for much more than web right? Jun 28 17:02:47 thats correct Jun 28 17:02:52 it's not even fast enough for normal web, really Jun 28 17:02:53 you think GPRS is fast enough for Web? :) Jun 28 17:03:00 * cjb uses GPRS for ssh. Jun 28 17:03:01 gprs class 13 is ok for web Jun 28 17:03:06 * Basheri agrees with guaqua Jun 28 17:03:13 used it for years (gprs class 8) Jun 28 17:03:13 cjb: idk, I'm on cdma 1x right now Jun 28 17:04:08 the best speed possible is about 1xisdn (about 60 kbit/s) Jun 28 17:04:36 in many countries 40 kbit/s might be the maximum Jun 28 17:04:50 the j2me ssh client I have reponds quick enough Jun 28 17:04:51 :F Jun 28 17:04:57 for emergency hacking, at least Jun 28 17:05:19 I own some symbian devices and use s2putty, its very usable Jun 28 17:05:40 what are my chances of convincing FIC to put in a slidy keyboard into GTA02? Jun 28 17:05:48 ala the HTC devices Jun 28 17:06:03 GTA02 is the customer Neo Jun 28 17:06:13 and it's the same case as the current dev models Jun 28 17:06:19 Hi! I'm an experienced software developer for Linux (mostly Ubuntu/Kubuntu) and I wish to help making apps for the phone. My question is; Where do I start? I mean who should I contact? I haven't worked in any projects as is say on the page but can I still help making apps for it? Thanks! Jun 28 17:06:19 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki) Jun 28 17:06:23 hi Jun 28 17:06:24 exastra: same as mine convincing thet to put HDSPA in it ;) Jun 28 17:06:31 *ewon Jun 28 17:06:40 *them Jun 28 17:06:55 Korken: just start :) Jun 28 17:06:56 I would spend 150 extra dollars for having hsdpa phase3 in the neo :) Jun 28 17:07:17 Korken: hack on the stuff you find interesting and see if someone is already doing it Jun 28 17:07:22 thomasg__: same here Jun 28 17:07:25 Is it just to get the development phone for $450 and start? Jun 28 17:07:28 Korken: projects.openmoko.org or something Jun 28 17:07:31 $300 Jun 28 17:07:35 Hi--I'm having trouble using MokoMakeFile to set up qemu--I'm running Ubuntu 7.04, and getting the following error every time I try to "make qemu": http://paste.debian.net/31605 Jun 28 17:07:40 you don't need the full package generally. Jun 28 17:07:47 you don't even need the phone... Jun 28 17:07:51 Well - you _can_ develop simply using emulator for $0 Jun 28 17:08:14 need qemu for gcc4. dont want to compile gcc3 here :) Jun 28 17:08:34 I have tried the emulator for some time and now I wish to test it on the phone. :) Jun 28 17:08:40 qemu crashed a lot when i built it with gcc4 Jun 28 17:08:58 aristos_achaion: is DISPLAY set? Jun 28 17:09:09 thresh: strange, it isn't supposed to run at all Jun 28 17:09:26 balrog-kun: there are patches lying around enabling to build it with gcc4 Jun 28 17:09:40 hope that there are enough phones for all who want to have one. I could imagine, that all 1000 devices will be sold directly at the 9th Jun 28 17:09:46 balrog-kun: DISPLAY doesn't appear to be. Jun 28 17:09:57 thresh: ah yes, i think debian has them in by default, but they have a couple of drawbacks (beside being unstable) Jun 28 17:10:16 aristos_achaion: set it :) Jun 28 17:10:43 balrog-kun: this'll display my n00bness, but, set it to what? Jun 28 17:11:09 But thanks guys/gals! I thought I needed to be in a group or something to develop for it but it seems like I don't need to. Thanks for the info! Jun 28 17:11:13 aristos_achaion: are you in X right now? are you running this in a terminal? Jun 28 17:11:35 balrog-kun: I'm in X, running in gnome-terminal Jun 28 17:12:06 aristos_achaion: hmm, then DISPLAY should be already set ("echo $DISPLAY" should confirm that by printing ":0") Jun 28 17:12:19 aristos_achaion: this may mean the SDL was compiled without X support Jun 28 17:13:03 balrog-kun: You'd think that this'd be a more common complaint, then--I can't find this error message documented elsewhere. Jun 28 17:13:29 balrog-kun: "echo $DISPLAY" definitely just returns a blank line Jun 28 17:14:53 aristos_achaion: well, it is commong but it's not qemu related, it may be documented but if it is, then not in qemu docs, rather in SDL or X docs Jun 28 17:15:10 aristos_achaion: try runnign "export DISPLAY=:0" and then qemu again Jun 28 17:15:39 Keep the hsdpa in mind! --> Jun 28 17:15:39 balrog-kun: just tried that, same error. Jun 28 17:15:54 aristos_achaion: if you run "xclock" does it run? Jun 28 17:16:03 in the same terminal Jun 28 17:16:20 Nope. Jun 28 17:16:47 does it say anything? like "couldn't open display"? Jun 28 17:17:42 balrog-kun: not much: http://paste.debian.net/31607 Jun 28 17:18:06 aristos_achaion: are you running as root by any chance? Jun 28 17:18:37 what version of automake does openmoko like? Jun 28 17:18:50 my system is missing Automake/Struct.pm Jun 28 17:19:09 balrog-kun: no, but I am an idiot--I was running su'ed into a different non-root account Jun 28 17:19:47 aristos_achaion: ah ok, then it's the permissions issue (same as if you were running as root) Jun 28 17:20:04 edit: Keep the hdspa in mind! now really --> Jun 28 17:20:08 balrog-kun: Thanks. I feel dumb now. Jun 28 17:20:15 * don-o goes with generic ubuntu automake package Jun 28 17:20:22 aristos_achaion: you need to run "xhost +" as your normal user to be able to run qemu su'ed Jun 28 17:20:50 balrog-kun: Thanks! Jun 28 17:25:11 * aloril2 forgot to add entry about GPRS/EDGE/3G to FAQ: anybody to add it (looks like a frequent question)? Jun 28 17:25:53 aristos_achaion, balrog-kun, But it's better to use "sux" with is "su with X", or gksudo - both of those grant X permissions securely. Jun 28 17:26:04 xhost + disables X authentication entirely! Jun 28 17:26:29 hdspa is an important question and should not be forgotten... And NOW -> Jun 28 17:26:48 well, right, xhost + is risky Jun 28 17:27:12 Basically - everyone wants whatever faster/better phone tech is in their area Basheri, this is assumed. Jun 28 17:27:28 There are several different models that'd be needed worldwide to do that though. Jun 28 17:27:45 balrog-kun, Just use "gksu" and it'll be not risky. Jun 28 17:28:21 paulproteus: i can take some risk :) Jun 28 17:31:10 SpeedEvil: true, but i'm quite sure that umts will spread more and more and even usa will find it =) Jun 28 17:33:33 Then there is the issue of frequencies. Jun 28 17:35:09 ok, ok :P I don't understand too much about these things... Just asked if there'd be hdspa in neo Jun 28 17:37:08 but it's nice to see that my question/idea didn't get ignored ^^ Jun 28 17:38:00 answers depend on the way the questions are phrased Jun 28 17:38:33 indeed Jun 28 17:38:42 well, would be rather bad if there was no correlation between a question and its answer :) Jun 28 17:39:39 what i meant was... Jun 28 17:39:48 heh, yeah, i know what you meant Jun 28 17:40:31 not sure how the saying goes in english Jun 28 17:43:06 yes, well :) Jun 28 17:48:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Flashing_openmoko]] Jun 28 17:51:36 * aloril2 wonders how many debug boards there are, sounds like many who don't need JTAG are going to order advanced version Jun 28 17:52:04 Prolly. Jun 28 17:52:18 OTOH - $150 isn't that much for many people. Jun 28 17:53:03 yeah, but advanced versions might run out fast ;-) Jun 28 17:53:13 Ah :) Jun 28 17:53:15 I won't be needing one, I'll spend my extra $150 on some more camera gear Jun 28 17:53:37 aloril2: you can have my advanced version :) Jun 28 17:54:32 Stephmw: that's like 1/10 L lens :) Jun 28 17:55:45 erm, sean was talking about micro-usb in his announcement. will it really be micro-usb or will it stay mini-usb? Jun 28 17:56:07 also some might think $300 version is enough cheap, but think they need $450 version which they consider too expensive Jun 28 17:57:03 koen: every little bit helps Jun 28 17:57:22 aloril2: hey, it's cheaper than nokia n800 :) Jun 28 17:57:44 aloril2: right. They should do a Vertu-like version at $8000 Jun 28 17:57:45 it's cheaper than every other smartphone out there Jun 28 17:58:15 well, I'd really like a stainless-steel housing, but guess thats too expensive Jun 28 17:58:17 * dottedmag would love GTA02 for 10$, but... :) Jun 28 17:59:15 imho the only problem with the GTA01 is that there's hardly an use for it once GTA02 is out... Jun 28 17:59:19 the price is certainly more than fair Jun 28 17:59:29 thomasg__: it'd be interesting to hack a Nokia for instance, to fit the OpenMoko hw into it ;) Jun 28 17:59:45 drath: uh, i still use my black and white cellphone and it'll still be useful after tomorrow when the iPhone comes out . :) Jun 28 18:00:08 s/black and white/monochrome/ Jun 28 18:00:08 don-o meant: drath: uh, i still use my monochrome cellphone and it'll still be useful after tomorrow when the iPhone comes out . :) Jun 28 18:00:32 Stephmw, Ill gonna see how small a alu-housing for the neo could be, maybe I can someone let build one Jun 28 18:00:33 s/monochrome cellphone/plastic rocketry set/ Jun 28 18:00:35 I could make you a stainless case thomasg__. Jun 28 18:00:44 drath: there are all sorts of other use cases for gta01 Jun 28 18:00:45 drat. didnt work the second time :( Jun 28 18:00:45 don-o: operators have found ways in the past of obsoleting old monochrome phones Jun 28 18:00:51 SpeedEvil, how expensive? :) Jun 28 18:00:54 But - the cellular reception may be poor. Jun 28 18:00:55 don-o: usually by issuing incompatible simcards Jun 28 18:00:58 :) Jun 28 18:01:03 drath: for example navigation etc Jun 28 18:01:06 guaqua: but those usescases should be worth $300 to you Jun 28 18:01:12 * koen mentions mr Faraday and his cage Jun 28 18:01:13 Stephmw: hmm. well this ericsson t39 keeps on ticking. it just wont die. Jun 28 18:01:24 drath: true that Jun 28 18:01:37 koen: plenty of brushed alu phones out there Jun 28 18:01:38 thomasg__: probably $300ish or so - it's a moderately annoying shape to do in ones. Jun 28 18:01:45 koen: it's a question of coverage and thickness Jun 28 18:02:05 koen: the vertu phone casings are moslt precious metals for instance Jun 28 18:02:06 Stephmw: I remember the first alu powerbooks with piss poor wifi + bluetooth Jun 28 18:02:35 koen: oh, of course... but we've learned from those mistakes, right? Jun 28 18:02:47 wanna bet? Jun 28 18:03:15 * Stephmw thinks of Operator and Manufacturer upper management... Jun 28 18:03:17 errr, no? Jun 28 18:06:42 can sb answer my micro/mini-usb question? Jun 28 18:06:55 this: sean was talking about micro-usb in his announcement. will it really be micro-usb or will it stay mini-usb? Jun 28 18:07:58 I bet it was a typo (/braino) Jun 28 18:08:21 since he talked microusb in Basic set right after mentioning microSD, but talked mini-usb in the Advanced set Jun 28 18:09:55 whoho. the moko build-train is back on the tracks and compiling for who knows how many more hours. Jun 28 18:14:18 I still can't get past the ltrace configure problem :( Jun 28 18:14:32 Must be since I'm running openSUSE 10.2 Jun 28 18:17:55 What is micro-usb? Jun 28 18:18:15 a new usb-standard Jun 28 18:18:30 as far as I can tell micro == mini w/ reinforced casing Jun 28 18:18:42 the plug is about 2.5 millimeteres wide Jun 28 18:19:39 Ahh well. Jun 28 18:20:00 <_buz> microusb deprecates miniusb from what i understand Jun 28 18:20:19 nokia announced their coming phones with micro-usb. here's a rendering where you can see it: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/06/6500.jpg Jun 28 18:20:41 the phone is about 9.5mm thick Jun 28 18:21:54 the little slot at the bottom is micro? Jun 28 18:22:01 yuck. Jun 28 18:22:19 that phone looks like it's got ubuntu on it Jun 28 18:22:23 hehe Jun 28 18:22:34 _buz - If it deprecates it, I hope it'll be as mechanically robust (or more) as mini, then. Jun 28 18:22:47 could get my 2nd phone besides the neo Jun 28 18:23:12 <_buz> iirc they want to get rid of mini ASAP to avoid confusion Jun 28 18:23:14 Elrond: I think the point of micro usb is supposed to be made out of a higher quality metal, being more robust Jun 28 18:23:28 Elrond, imho it will be (as far the size allows). all usb connectors was very robust Jun 28 18:23:38 _buz: confusion between a and b? or between mini and micro? Jun 28 18:23:44 Elrond: micro feels much more 'secure' when it's plugged in Jun 28 18:23:46 <_buz> mini and micro Jun 28 18:24:01 are there electrical specs on micro? Jun 28 18:24:06 will it still supply power? Jun 28 18:24:14 I believe so Jun 28 18:24:17 <_buz> i hope so, would be pretty useless without Jun 28 18:24:44 one reason I like mini-usb is that it means no more incompatible chargers Jun 28 18:24:51 I doubt mini will go away soon. Jun 28 18:25:04 So the confusion will be expectable. Jun 28 18:25:05 counter Jun 28 18:25:05 (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 17:34:50 (10.733±1.0 days) (1638;242) Jun 28 18:25:18 summatusmentis: no, the slot at the bottom isn't the micro usb Jun 28 18:25:39 summatusmentis: that's at the top Jun 28 18:25:54 Stephmw: oh, ok Jun 28 18:26:07 summatusmentis: it's thicker brother, the 6500 Slide is the same Jun 28 18:26:43 and both are S40 devices, Java expandability only. Jun 28 18:26:47 * Elrond heads for meal. :-) Jun 28 18:26:48 I see Jun 28 18:27:01 Stephmw: I've got a 6265i that's only got java Jun 28 18:28:09 summatusmentis: looks like a S40 one too Jun 28 18:29:12 Stephmw: I don't know... it's probably the best phone I've ever had(out of 2, this and a Razr V3m w/ VZW) Jun 28 18:30:07 summatusmentis: yeah, it's S40. I'm not surprised you like it, S40 is much more stable than S60 Jun 28 18:31:22 not familiar with S60 at all, but it's a solid phone definitely Jun 28 18:33:49 i think there'll still be use cases for gta01... lots of embedded stuff i bet Jun 28 18:33:58 if you're used to restarts from windows, than s60 is right choice :p Jun 28 18:34:02 lol Jun 28 18:34:12 ynezz: nope, linux here :-) Jun 28 18:35:39 Hi is anyone using the phone yet? Jun 28 18:35:39 Thomaschaaf: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 28 18:36:27 And can you really call with it? Jun 28 18:36:43 Thomaschaaf: is there an apple store that is at friday 6pm? Jun 28 18:37:02 Thomaschaaf: were close but not that close and theyre arent that many timezones. :) Jun 28 18:37:19 Thomaschaaf: you can really call with it, yes. Noone but the devs has it yet Jun 28 18:38:17 ynezz: haha Jun 28 18:38:32 ynezz: S60 just feels like a beta OS to me... Jun 28 18:38:42 i agree Jun 28 18:38:58 dunno if it's architecture or QA Jun 28 18:39:51 I live in Europe.. so the iPhone is nothing for me Jun 28 18:40:14 the iphone is nothing everywhere, it's only hype :D Jun 28 18:40:25 I dont like apples :D Jun 28 18:40:40 Both the Company and the fruit Jun 28 18:41:30 me too Jun 28 18:41:53 I bet I'm gonna get beaten now.. but I am a big Vista fan Jun 28 18:42:23 But I like linux as well.. but more for servers altough asp is pretty good.. Jun 28 18:42:30 Thomaschaaf: ? Jun 28 18:42:46 hehe :D Jun 28 18:43:14 you dont like apple but you like MS? Jun 28 18:43:30 !brainwashed Jun 28 18:43:35 hehe :D Jun 28 18:44:13 I dont like that apple makes you buy their hardware.. Jun 28 18:44:29 I want to have my own choice of hardware.. Jun 28 18:44:41 Well who cares :) Jun 28 18:44:41 great point Jun 28 18:44:56 And I hate the mouse :D Jun 28 18:45:16 "I want to buy hardware, but I dislike apple for selling it to me" Jun 28 18:45:42 No I want to chose the stuff and buy it for OEM prices.. Jun 28 18:46:19 * koen is happy with the 6.5% educational discount Jun 28 18:46:21 and not a cpu which costs me $210 as OEM for $600 Jun 28 18:46:43 Thomaschaaf: you like Vista, but prefer FLOSS Linux phone over WinCE phones? Jun 28 18:46:57 I havent chosen yet ;) Jun 28 18:47:07 I just read about it at winfuture Jun 28 18:47:35 <_buz> the longer i use linux, the greater my disgust whenever i'm forced to use windows Jun 28 18:48:01 why would you be forced to use windows? Jun 28 18:48:21 Live CD?! Jun 28 18:48:27 <_buz> technically i'm only half forced Jun 28 18:48:37 because $corporate app needs windows because the linuxport isn't done yet Jun 28 18:48:46 HAHA! Jun 28 18:48:51 <_buz> there is theoretically suse on the work (uni) notebook but it doesnt really work Jun 28 18:48:57 SUSE sucks! Jun 28 18:49:02 I hate yum Jun 28 18:49:03 <_buz> acctually, my job could easily be done on linux Jun 28 18:49:11 and apt for suse is sucky too Jun 28 18:49:34 <_buz> (save for the very rare time i need to use stata or mathematica for which we have no liunux licenses) Jun 28 18:49:50 in summary: everything sucks, except Thomaschaaf Jun 28 18:50:13 I'll take that as a compliment :) Jun 28 18:50:14 yey Jun 28 18:50:35 <_buz> yeah but i dont like suse either ;) Jun 28 18:51:00 I like Debian and Ubuntu which is almost the same Jun 28 18:51:06 a big almost Jun 28 18:51:17 <_buz> what usually happens: i have personally notebook running kubuntu next to the windows notebook Jun 28 18:51:27 <_buz> ~s/personally/personal/ Jun 28 18:51:47 well which languages will I be able to program on the phone? Jun 28 18:51:52 C I bet Jun 28 18:51:54 and C++ Jun 28 18:52:04 C#?? Jun 28 18:52:05 <_buz> python Jun 28 18:52:07 with mono? Jun 28 18:52:09 perl? Jun 28 18:52:12 Thomaschaaf: whatever you think of Jun 28 18:52:21 ... and write bindings for:) Jun 28 18:52:28 I'll write PHP :D Jun 28 18:52:37 _buz: also have to use windows for some things at work... LookOut is the biggest culprit Jun 28 18:52:43 _buz: Notes is the other Jun 28 18:52:59 <_buz> i could never make up my mind just which one is worse Jun 28 18:53:22 I'm hungry Jun 28 18:54:01 why will the mass market be more expensive than the "small production" ? Jun 28 18:54:29 see the specs Jun 28 18:54:30 forgot the word "price" Jun 28 18:54:39 link pleeeeaaasse Jun 28 18:54:57 see topic Jun 28 18:55:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware ? Jun 28 18:56:29 see the mailing list archive and sean's last post there Jun 28 18:56:35 in community at least Jun 28 18:57:07 mmp: maybe you saw speculation in counter page about future models and 3G? Jun 28 18:57:47 (future models: GTA03, etc.. at next year maybe) Jun 28 18:57:56 aloril: yes, that might be that:) Jun 28 18:58:52 but anyway, I'm really curious about what will GTA03 contains Jun 28 18:58:55 contain Jun 28 18:59:11 even GTA02 seems to be overwhelmed with hardware Jun 28 18:59:24 LOL "Laser Pointer Jun 28 19:01:10 teleporter Jun 28 19:01:22 a keyboard would be o great! Jun 28 19:01:24 alphaone: I want to ask you something Jun 28 19:01:53 deepank: Yeah? Jun 28 19:02:21 faq? Jun 28 19:02:21 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Jun 28 19:02:39 what does the command " ip a add 10.0.0.2/24 dev bnep0 " do? In my notebook it says bnep0 not found Jun 28 19:03:31 deepank: Thats for the bluetooth networking interface Jun 28 19:03:50 You need the module bnep Jun 28 19:04:01 And a bluetooth device Jun 28 19:04:25 alphaone:ok. I was able to get the openmoko phone detected by laptop using hcitool scan Jun 28 19:04:38 you have one? Jun 28 19:04:40 and started the pand server on it as you said Jun 28 19:05:30 don-o, just read that your t39 still keeps ticking and so does mine ;-) even the battery wont die and is fit as on the first day. Seems that Li-ion does not necessarily need to age... Jun 28 19:07:59 deepank: But you don't have a device bnep0? Jun 28 19:08:51 alphaone: as I understand bnep is the protocol used for transfer of packets and bluez-hcidump is installed in my machine which supports it. Jun 28 19:08:51 deepank_: But you don't have a device bnep0? Jun 28 19:09:09 alphaone:yes Jun 28 19:10:23 alphaone: so what should I do? Jun 28 19:11:07 deepank_: Hmm, I see what you mean. I don't get a device now, either. Jun 28 19:13:28 alphaone:So what should be done to get bnep, something you did back then? Jun 28 19:13:53 deepank_: There are some kernel versions between my last attempt...I'm not really sure Jun 28 19:14:35 alphaone:sounds interesting ... Jun 28 19:14:39 heh Jun 28 19:15:07 If I'm not mistaken starting pand should result in a network device being created Jun 28 19:15:56 hmm but i did start pand... I will try again Jun 28 19:16:36 well I'm off bye bye Jun 28 19:18:23 deepank_: It's not working here either... Jun 28 19:18:43 I think pand is a bit outdated now.. can it be the reason? Jun 28 19:20:02 alphaone:which kernel version did it work with? Jun 28 19:20:37 deepank_: I had 2.6.17 back then Jun 28 19:20:54 anyone working on the sdio stack for the s3c24xx? Jun 28 19:25:42 last i checked Linux had no sdio stack Jun 28 19:26:16 it has, but as an external patch Jun 28 19:26:30 i see Jun 28 19:26:34 pierre and marcel are rewriting it Jun 28 19:27:49 alphaone:got anything? Jun 28 19:27:59 koen: yea, i figured someone might be doing some more handy work in prep for the neo with wifi Jun 28 19:28:16 alphaone:Is there another way we can do this? Jun 28 19:28:23 prpplague: I suspect they'll hookup wifi via spi or usb Jun 28 19:28:42 deepank_: I'm currently looking into it, give me a second Jun 28 19:28:43 I hope it's not USB. Jun 28 19:28:52 USB means that it won't work in slow mode. Jun 28 19:28:55 hello Jun 28 19:28:58 koen: i think you will find, from experience with the USB interface on the OLPC project, that its not a very good way to go Jun 28 19:29:20 It would be nice if bluetooth could be moved onto SPI too. Jun 28 19:29:21 prpplague: usb is a bad way to go regardless of what you are doing Jun 28 19:29:24 deepank_: So you're on the GSoC bluetooth networking project? Jun 28 19:29:48 koen: and as far as spi, max clock on the s3c24xx spi controller is 25mhz and a 1-bit interface that limits you to less than 25megabit transfers, so no 802.11g max of 54megabit Jun 28 19:30:09 like it ever does 54Mbit/s Jun 28 19:30:15 koen: true Jun 28 19:30:22 koen: marketing Jun 28 19:30:27 just do some handwaving and say 'single duplex' Jun 28 19:30:30 ~marketting-- Jun 28 19:30:33 hehe Jun 28 19:30:35 Not to mention that with 44K*2*2 audio out, ... Jun 28 19:31:24 the 2442 does have a cf interface iirc Jun 28 19:32:11 hello there Jun 28 19:32:58 CF is rather unlikley. Jun 28 19:33:11 Even embedded. Jun 28 19:33:16 Annoying number of wires. Jun 28 19:33:21 SpeedEvil: agreed Jun 28 19:33:24 a cf slot would rock Jun 28 19:33:26 CF/USB interface? Jun 28 19:33:30 all my cameras are cf Jun 28 19:33:36 koen: photog peeking out again :) Jun 28 19:33:44 SpeedEvil: thats the primary reason we don't use it Jun 28 19:33:45 koen: OTG would do too Jun 28 19:33:48 yeah Jun 28 19:33:58 i have only one question, when/where can i buy the phone in germany? Jun 28 19:33:58 misthupper: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jun 28 19:34:06 Stephmw: *cough* firewire on cam *cough* Jun 28 19:34:10 misthupper: same time as everyone else, worldwide Jun 28 19:34:23 now, firewire on the neo, that would rock Jun 28 19:34:25 koen: yeah, in 2050, maybe Jun 28 19:34:25 where? Jun 28 19:34:52 when it's released ;) read the faq Jun 28 19:35:16 i see... Jun 28 19:36:39 misthupper: July 9, way that it's done is not announced. Jun 28 19:38:03 ....a.) Awesome. b.) damnit on the price raise. Jun 28 19:38:27 I liked the price drop, personally Jun 28 19:38:40 same here Jun 28 19:38:50 now i'm thinking about it... Jun 28 19:39:01 Stephmw, they dropped the dev phones (which are incomplete compared to the mass market), by $50, and raised the mass market by $100. Jun 28 19:39:25 so I'll just be waiting for the mass market, and get my wifi and SIP...mmm.... Jun 28 19:39:50 i don't think the price for the mass market was ever published Jun 28 19:40:01 It wasn't. Jun 28 19:40:11 guaqua, yes it was. Mass market for $450, or $600 for the bells and whistles edition. Jun 28 19:40:24 it wasnt, actually Jun 28 19:40:25 And it was implied back wehnr there were no accels, or 2d accel Jun 28 19:41:41 * xipietotec is wondering if he can find a retail-reseller with a subsidy.... Jun 28 19:41:48 I doubt it Jun 28 19:42:01 Not yet. Jun 28 19:42:10 Maybe for 'october' Jun 28 19:42:24 SpeedEvil: 'october' :D Jun 28 19:42:25 Which I assume is a codename for the mass market release date. Jun 28 19:42:59 counter Jun 28 19:42:59 (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 16:16:56 (10.678±1.0 days) (1639;242) Jun 28 19:43:02 SpeedEvil, I doubt it even then. They can't "lock" the phone. ergo probably no distribution through the major chains at least. Jun 28 19:43:25 and to clarify: you guys meant that the mass market price was never published prior to today right? Jun 28 19:43:32 yes. Jun 28 19:43:44 However. Jun 28 19:43:50 anyone know which operating system samsung use with mobile phone ? Jun 28 19:43:57 The phone can be locked in principle. Jun 28 19:44:15 dotx, samsung uses many os Jun 28 19:44:17 what is the status of the wifi driver in GTA02? Jun 28 19:44:26 SpeedEvil, and unlocked in equal ease. Jun 28 19:44:34 Not really. Jun 28 19:44:35 win mobile for smartphones, symbian 8 with series60 (by nokia) for some others, a proprietary system for the normal phones Jun 28 19:44:46 SpeedEvil, why not? Jun 28 19:44:49 You would at least need the debug board if it's done properly. Jun 28 19:45:03 you can hack current phones aswell Jun 28 19:45:15 some are harder than others Jun 28 19:45:16 for example enable disabled bluetooth etc Jun 28 19:45:21 Consider if you want anyone with a properly prepared phone to be able to download your phones current state with 30s access. Jun 28 19:45:46 One small thing... I see there has been talk about microUSB, and maybe some false informtion too. microUSB is really just a smaller, more robust port. it is about half the height of a normal miniUSB port. The RAZR2 has one, and most new phones will. miniUSB: http://www.ctgcom.com/miniusb2.jpg , microUSB: http://www.ceatec.com/2006/imgx/product/0568.jpg Jun 28 19:45:46 ? I don't follow SpeedEvil Jun 28 19:46:02 xipietotec: The current scheme pretty much allows that. Jun 28 19:46:33 SpeedEvil, meaning they can swipe all your data? What security is there? Jun 28 19:46:34 xipietotec: upload the right DFU image, using the proper tool, and you now have complete access to the phone. Jun 28 19:46:49 By obscurity at the moment. Jun 28 19:47:07 that's not exactly good for the open moko Jun 28 19:47:25 contract phones aren't simlocked in most cases here..this is more of a prepaid-phone problem which might not be neo's target-market Jun 28 19:47:30 Also - ownere and user are not the same. Jun 28 19:47:42 Plus - simlocking can happen ont eh Neo. Jun 28 19:47:52 The phone module is not open source. Jun 28 19:48:10 cloneable API though in principal no? Jun 28 19:48:20 SpeedEvil, didn't i tell you last night about neo available for sale? ;) Jun 28 19:48:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] [[Main_Page]] Jun 28 19:48:36 If I for example buy a phone and give it to my employees, I don't want them able to install stuff. Jun 28 19:48:53 Or I want them only able to install pre-signed stuff. Jun 28 19:49:10 SpeedEvil, That's what sudo is for =P Jun 28 19:49:46 thomasg__: in SGH-U600 => http://www.samsung.com/fr/microsites/u600/ Jun 28 19:49:48 xipietotec: not if you can hold down the power button and simply upload a firmware image that will let you edit the filesystem as you desire. Jun 28 19:50:19 SpeedEvil, yes...but um, 99.99% of *employees* won't be tossed to do that with company property. Jun 28 19:50:42 Consider where they have an incentive to. Jun 28 19:50:48 For example, faking time records. Jun 28 19:51:13 any inspection on the phone's root account, etc. would reveal it as false. Jun 28 19:51:34 hell, file date creations would. Jun 28 19:51:42 You plug the phone into your laptop. Upload a custom firmware image to RAM, boot it. You now own the phone. Jun 28 19:51:54 As much as if you boot off a floppy with a standard PC. Jun 28 19:52:13 dotx, afaik this thingy is win mobile powered Jun 28 19:52:24 create some sort of boot sequence lock, that requires both a key combo and then password override. Jun 28 19:52:32 There is currently none. Jun 28 19:52:52 Passwording u-boot is possible. Jun 28 19:52:59 i want it so if my phones stolen, it's useless Jun 28 19:53:14 And requiring signed images to upgrade. Jun 28 19:53:25 Me too. Jun 28 19:53:39 cbrake: i've not been able to get an update on the wifi Jun 28 19:53:40 I want to be able to only upload signed images - with me having the signing tool. Jun 28 19:54:02 I _might_ be happy with some 'locked in' applications - if I got a free neo. Jun 28 19:54:03 prpplague: have you looked at http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=186068? Jun 28 19:54:04 that means, if they turn it off they can't get access to it again, and if the screen locks on they can't plug it in and get access to it Jun 28 19:54:36 cbrake: yea, got a copy Jun 28 19:54:38 prpplague: I'm also looking into the following module: http://www.accton.com/products/product_range/21_weap/WM3236A.AQ.htm Jun 28 19:54:43 locking the boot sequence is a good first step, as the phone is both a.) new, and b.) running linux....most phone thieves will not have any off the shelf tools for reformatting, etc., for at least a year after launch. Jun 28 19:54:45 cbrake: using it as a guide to work on my marvell stuff Jun 28 19:54:51 Encryption goes part of the way there. Jun 28 19:55:01 prpplague: moving to #edev Jun 28 19:55:22 It really could do with some way of passwording JTAG access too though. Jun 28 19:56:05 question though....is there software along the lines of the iphone's keypad sequence yet? Jun 28 19:56:10 No. Jun 28 19:56:32 The answer to almost all 'is there software' questions at the moment is 'no'. Jun 28 19:56:46 ah, gotcha. There will be by launch though....correct? Jun 28 19:56:58 What's the keypad sequence? Jun 28 19:57:01 xipietotec: you can help by programming it Jun 28 19:57:03 software I meant, lol Jun 28 19:57:10 software? Jun 28 19:57:21 thomasg__: windows mobile ? But it very lite... Jun 28 19:57:44 SpeedEvil, the iphone gets over the non-tactile nature of the touch-screen via word completion and spell correction. Jun 28 19:57:45 dotx, I was wrong, the F600 was the win mobile device Jun 28 19:58:05 guaqua, unfortunately, I am not a programmer =\ Jun 28 19:58:08 SpeedEvil: hmmm, I suppose you could use the accelerometers for gesture recog as security mechanism Jun 28 19:58:16 xipietotec: There are any number of schemes in progress to do text input. Jun 28 19:58:25 Stephmw: perhaps. Jun 28 19:58:25 thomasg__: ah oki Jun 28 19:58:42 SpeedEvil: number of shakes maybe :D Jun 28 19:58:43 xipietotec: how well it woll work come release time - who knows. Jun 28 19:58:51 don't know what the U600 is, but I guess the samsung proprietary phone (not smartphone) plattform Jun 28 19:58:52 otherwise I'd be all over the code like flies on honey =) Jun 28 19:58:58 Stephmw: Seen Red Dwarf? Jun 28 19:59:10 SpeedEvil: all of them, I think Jun 28 19:59:18 Stephmw: Rimmers Salute. Jun 28 19:59:23 SpeedEvil: bwahahaha Jun 28 19:59:38 SpeedEvil: or one of his 'variations' Jun 28 19:59:48 Indeed, for extra security. Jun 28 20:00:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q6wZUzCX7E Jun 28 20:03:31 I <3 red dwarf Jun 28 20:04:46 SpeedEvil - passwording jtag should only be available, when the nand for u-boot can be locked. :-) Jun 28 20:05:30 Yeah. Jun 28 20:07:07 deepank_: I upgraded bluez to 3.11 and that seems to work Jun 28 20:07:45 deepank_: Try to change Autostart=true in /etc/bluetooth/network.service Jun 28 20:08:07 Then after a while a device pan0 should appear. Jun 28 20:08:37 Did anyone try u-boot-gta01bv3-r10_1636d1c8529c006d106287cfbc20cd0a246fe1cb_0_2302.bin (one the GTA01Bv03) yet? Jun 28 20:09:16 alphaone:ok ... i am trying this now Jun 28 20:09:16 ... on the other hand, I should wait, until the other u-boot issues are fixed. :) Jun 28 20:09:27 But I have no idea how to get the connection hooked up with that version... Jun 28 20:10:47 alphaone: i think we will have to use bluez api for that Jun 28 20:11:49 deepank_: It seems like it communicates via dbus now. Jun 28 20:11:52 Nice Jun 28 20:19:15 alphaone:yes it communicates using dbus now Jun 28 20:20:47 that's good news Jun 28 20:20:48 Kaloz, do you have a sec Jun 28 20:22:50 one can not own time Jun 28 20:23:00 ok, wtf Jun 28 20:29:26 * summatusmentis considers setting up openmoko to play with Jun 28 20:29:35 is it worth it at this point? Jun 28 20:30:09 SpeedEvil - [Your wiki-edit on Neo1973] The debug board might be useful in kernel development, as you get the serial console. Jun 28 20:32:03 deepank_: If you find out how to setup pan with bluez-3.11 please update the wiki. Jun 28 20:36:38 SpeedEvil: I should disapprove... someone seems to have uploaded a significant number of Red Dwarf episodes to youtube Jun 28 20:38:47 summatusmentis: I finally got qemu to build correctly and run yesteday ;) Jun 28 20:39:18 With the mokomakefile that is. Feels worth it Jun 28 20:39:27 Well - practically. Jun 28 20:39:33 The quality is horrible. Jun 28 20:39:35 alphaone: I will try to do that ... just installed bluez 3.12 now Jun 28 20:39:44 I'd much rather have DVD. Jun 28 20:54:40 hi Jun 28 20:54:52 the used toolkit for the UI is gtk+ vers2.x right? Jun 28 20:55:05 yes Jun 28 20:56:18 wont that eat up alot of computation power? i mean - it's a mobile phone. wouldnt something especially designed for being lightweight be better? or is gtk patched/altered accordingly to fit those needs in a clean wayß Jun 28 20:56:28 ? Jun 28 20:57:08 counter Jun 28 20:57:08 (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 15:02:47 (10.627±1.0 days) (1640;242) Jun 28 20:57:47 so...it makes sense to use a gtk-like-syntax as people already know it, yet...well. i'm not that into the development of neither openmoko nor gtk Jun 28 21:03:01 expose, I'm not, too. I also think that gtk might not be the best choise in sight of the hardware. but I also think, that the developers will get it :) Jun 28 21:03:41 yes, that equaly my point of view currently. Jun 28 21:04:00 i cannot imagine that they'll use something feeling delayed and laggy if used. Jun 28 21:04:01 personally I'm looking forward to have a nice efl-gui and some etk/ewl-apps for openmoko (saying that as e17 fan :) ) Jun 28 21:04:19 In many ways - performance is low down on the tree, to developer numbers. Jun 28 21:06:00 night all Jun 28 21:15:28 night alphaone Jun 28 21:15:48 omg the build finished. Jun 28 21:15:53 now i have no idea what to do :) Jun 28 21:16:18 night alphaone Jun 28 21:17:30 I finally got past the ltrace build problem too.... hoping it will be done soon Jun 28 21:17:55 should I post the fix on the wiki? or is this something nobody else has run into? Jun 28 21:26:33 arghh well i can't seem to upload Jun 28 21:27:44 * webjames just yped in the wrong box Jun 28 21:36:08 don-o: figure out what to do with the build yet? Jun 28 21:48:54 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] Jun 28 22:02:27 WOW! Free phone calls - http://callfree.point-serv.com/en/ Jun 28 22:02:52 WOW! Jun 28 22:03:51 if it is just as WOW as the time he stayed here... Jun 28 22:04:02 (she?) Jun 28 22:04:09 it? Jun 28 22:04:11 hi Jun 28 22:16:50 gcb77: nope. any pointers? Jun 28 22:17:59 * don-o notices a run-qemu target in the make file Jun 28 22:22:08 ERROR: QEMU requires SDL or Cocoa for graphical output Jun 28 22:22:15 ive got libsdl-1.2 installed. Jun 28 22:22:24 ah probably need a -dev package Jun 28 22:26:48 don-o: sdl_config? Jun 28 22:26:59 sdl-config Jun 28 22:27:13 don-o: DISPLAY set? Jun 28 22:34:52 don-o: make build-qemu Jun 28 22:35:09 make flash-qemu-local Jun 28 22:35:51 * gcb77 has a neo emulator displaying at home, but is miles away at work and X11 refuses to forward Jun 28 22:38:58 gcb77: i assumed run would be dependent on build :( Jun 28 22:50:04 gcb77: the -vnc option is handy for remote VMs Jun 28 22:50:11 much nicer than X forwarding Jun 28 23:00:06 hi Jun 28 23:00:47 i have a little question... Jun 28 23:01:09 don't ask to ask, just ask Jun 28 23:01:52 what do you think about the fact, that the final neo1973 will cost 100$ more than announced? Jun 28 23:02:10 Meh. Jun 28 23:02:36 It's got accelerometers, and 2D hardware accel chip, and wifi. Jun 28 23:03:04 I say I'll be worth it Jun 28 23:03:11 And what the hell are the accellerometers for? in my opinion theyre geek stuff in a mobile phone. noone needs them Jun 28 23:03:24 Detecting phone movement. Jun 28 23:03:27 make run-qemu => "could not open Flash image openmoko/openmoko-flash.image" Jun 28 23:03:31 It's another user-interface input. Jun 28 23:03:35 Tetraden: it was announced without wifi, so of course it costs more now. Jun 28 23:03:55 Tetraden: the iPhone has accelerometers too. do you think that Apple's designers are idiots too, then? Jun 28 23:04:03 no, it was announced without accellerometers Jun 28 23:04:24 don-o: does this file exist? Jun 28 23:04:36 The accellerometers is what allows the image to shift from landscape to portrait when you rotate the phone Jun 28 23:04:39 balrog-kun: i doubt it. question is how to build it. Jun 28 23:04:59 don-o: i thought one of the MokoMakefile targets produces it Jun 28 23:05:00 I think it would make a great interface for the keyboard too (tilt to scroll) Jun 28 23:05:03 gcb77: you can do a lot more than that, too, e.g. typing via tilt control. Jun 28 23:05:09 don-o: the one after building qemu itself Jun 28 23:05:32 balrog-kun: do you mean it comes after in the makefile? Jun 28 23:05:45 the accelerometers will make the OM version of Etch'a'Sketch really come to life.. Jun 28 23:05:49 Tetraden: well, you could always get a P1 for the lower price then Jun 28 23:06:07 yes, but I essentially need wifi Jun 28 23:06:15 don-o: oh, no, in the MokoMakefile tutorial on the wiki, i have no idea what order it goes in the Makefile Jun 28 23:06:17 but no accellerometer toy stuff Jun 28 23:06:55 don-o: if that doesn't work, just build the image normally like described in the qemu wiki page Jun 28 23:07:10 Tetraden: accelerometers cost $0.50 each. they aren't why it's more expensive. Jun 28 23:07:23 so, get over it. Jun 28 23:07:28 Tetraden: it's a geek phone Jun 28 23:07:37 I really hope so @cjb Jun 28 23:07:53 balrog-kun: all the MokeMakeFile page says after 'make openmoko-devel-image' is "Once you have done this, you can choose to continue using the MokoMakefile to initiate your subsequent builds, or you can go into the build directory and run bitbake commands manually. The choice is yours. Jun 28 23:07:58 [edit] Jun 28 23:08:01 " Jun 28 23:08:03 don-o: did you run: flash-qemu-local Jun 28 23:08:04 whoops sorry about the big paste Jun 28 23:08:13 it was so perfect for my needs before the accelerometer stuff... Jun 28 23:08:16 gcb77: nope. im guessing i should ? Jun 28 23:08:17 balrog-kun: funny thing is, that doesn't even have to be the argument; iPhone has accelerometers too, so they're clearly not something foolish that openmoko has chosen poorly. Jun 28 23:08:25 don-o: see the qemu wiki page then Jun 28 23:08:28 don-o: yep, make flash-qemu-local Jun 28 23:08:35 don-o: i can't advocate for anything MokoMakefile does Jun 28 23:09:28 cjb: oh, i had no idea, but yeah, there are uses where they could turn out a very nice addition Jun 28 23:09:50 gcb77: ah its doing a lot of low-level cool-looking stuff Jun 28 23:10:13 i guess people are used to whatever is current standard high-end phone and anything more than that is a toy or geeky stuff Jun 28 23:10:17 damn, thats marketing how i hate it. turning all around a few moments before its too late Jun 28 23:10:30 OH MY Jun 28 23:10:40 its booting under qemu. \o/ Jun 28 23:10:41 balrog-kun: yeah, it looks like iPhone uses it a lot, e.g. in the music player you tilt to landscape mode to zoom out to the album view Jun 28 23:10:43 but knowing what is going on for months Jun 28 23:11:10 Tetraden: your view seems kinda ridiculous, I'm afraid Jun 28 23:11:11 Tetraden: I'm not understanding why you're griping about $1's worth of accelerometers Jun 28 23:11:18 It's not $1 Jun 28 23:11:30 It's $5 at least - cost price, probably $8 Jun 28 23:11:33 SpeedEvil: sorry, was using the $0.50 mentioned earlier... Jun 28 23:11:36 SpeedEvil: I've been offered accelerometers for $0.50 each :) Jun 28 23:11:47 And double that on the purchase price. Jun 28 23:11:51 ChanServ: where? Jun 28 23:11:54 err Jun 28 23:11:57 just saying, it's not the reason it's $100 more Jun 28 23:12:13 cjb: where? And in what volume? Jun 28 23:12:33 and if you think the only features you get from them are "toy" ones, then all I can say is that clearly Apple disagrees Jun 28 23:12:41 in my view it is the reason for about 25-40 bucks more Jun 28 23:12:49 It's certainly not. Jun 28 23:12:53 and if you think Apple's designers are idiots, then that's a good place to end the conversation. Jun 28 23:13:04 i assume the real neo will take 3-5 minutes to boot :( Jun 28 23:13:05 I did a design for adding in accels to a phase 1 phone. Jun 28 23:13:12 actually all telephony is toys, starting from Bell and his invention Jun 28 23:13:19 I came up with a total BOM for $20 Jun 28 23:13:28 At qty=1 Jun 28 23:13:33 SpeedEvil: yeah, I know people who've added an accelerometer to their old-style iPaq Jun 28 23:13:44 In 1000, it'd be $10 or so Jun 28 23:13:53 sounds about right to me. Jun 28 23:14:22 don-o: well, it won't :p Jun 28 23:14:22 cjb: was the 0.50 in insane volume? Jun 28 23:14:31 maybe an order of magnitude high. FIC obviously has more purchasing power than you. Jun 28 23:14:36 SpeedEvil: insane for us, yes. Jun 28 23:14:53 not for a sufficiently motivated company :) Jun 28 23:15:35 don-o: last i checked, on my PC it was some 1:25 for qemu and 1:35 for the real Neo, the first boot that sets up all the stuff, and consecutive boots were about 55s vs. 1:05 Jun 28 23:15:37 I'm just going by published prices. Jun 28 23:15:55 yeah. which are usually double the prices a large company gets from a large manufacturer. Jun 28 23:16:07 It will be a pity if the accels used are the ones stated in the mailing list. Jun 28 23:16:20 oh, really? I didn't look up the parts. Jun 28 23:16:26 What's wrong with them? Jun 28 23:16:28 7 bit range. Jun 28 23:16:32 +-2G Jun 28 23:16:39 haha Jun 28 23:16:44 make that $0.25 :) Jun 28 23:16:46 i think there's a big chance the mailing list didn't lie :p Jun 28 23:17:04 You can get 12 bit or so without too much problems. Jun 28 23:17:20 Using an A/D and one of the accels from the Wii. Jun 28 23:17:59 From the Wii controller that is. Jun 28 23:18:03 does having two of them help you infer a larger range overall? Jun 28 23:18:07 No. Jun 28 23:18:10 ok. Jun 28 23:18:26 Having 2 of the 7 bit ones basically means that you can tell if someone is twisting it as hard as they can. Jun 28 23:18:50 Having 2 of the 12 bit ones means that you can detect a 60 degree/second or so roll about the gravity axes Jun 28 23:19:31 that sucks -_- Jun 28 23:19:48 Either of them give the direction of 'down' quite precisely. Jun 28 23:19:54 yeah, shame. still, it reassures me that they're basically not spending any money on them :) Jun 28 23:20:08 It's just the 12 bit option gives _lots_ more flexibility. Jun 28 23:20:25 The 7 bit ones are basically so bad that there is little point in putting two in unfortunately. Jun 28 23:20:38 (based on simulations) Jun 28 23:20:53 And basic physics. Jun 28 23:21:02 that's a little odd. you might want to follow up to the mailing list. Jun 28 23:21:11 suggesting that they go with one 12-bit instead or something. Jun 28 23:21:19 It's not quite that simple alas. Jun 28 23:21:27 the 7 bit ones go straight on the SPI bus. Jun 28 23:21:36 i think this was already suggested on the list Jun 28 23:21:37 The 12 bit ones are analog. Jun 28 23:21:58 The solution I came up with was a PIC, reading them. Jun 28 23:22:03 another thing i dont like is the fact, that fic never gave a realistic (and actual) estimated price. Jun 28 23:22:17 kudos to whoever did the transparent overlay when a call is placed. Jun 28 23:22:20 Which uses around the same amount of power, and coincidentally has several 'free' A/Ds. Jun 28 23:22:26 i hate to say it but its shiney and iPhone-like. Jun 28 23:22:31 And GPIOs, and fun stuff. Jun 28 23:23:27 Tetraden: you must have a bad memory Jun 28 23:23:30 I unfortunately couldn't find a large SPI RAM. Jun 28 23:23:41 I would have loved to find a megabyte or so one. Jun 28 23:23:59 SpeedEvil: an SPI flash part? Jun 28 23:24:06 So the PIC could basically buffer several seconds of audio to it, stream it to the A/D with the CPU off. Jun 28 23:24:08 No. Jun 28 23:24:10 SPI RAM. Jun 28 23:24:45 ah. can you just use parallel RAM? Jun 28 23:25:00 if you have a PIC. Jun 28 23:25:03 CPU on, decode 8s of audio to RAM buffer, CPU off, send it out to the A/D, wake CPU up in time. Jun 28 23:25:14 The advantage of SPI is size and pin count. Jun 28 23:25:15 fic told a price of about 350$ for the final neo1973 and it never changed until yesterday. where were the announcements, that it will be more expensive than tought? Jun 28 23:25:34 There was never a mass-market price announced. Jun 28 23:25:39 Tetraden: I don't recall having seen a price for the wifi neo1973 before yesterday. Jun 28 23:25:58 You can get SPI RAM chips - admittedly only 32K in 3mm*3mm*1mm or so packages. Jun 28 23:26:01 $350 was always for gta01... and it's $300 now ;) Jun 28 23:26:07 Tetraden: I think you're mistaken about having seen it before. As far as I'm concerned, it's *cheaper* than I'd thought. Jun 28 23:26:12 right, exactly Jun 28 23:26:28 dialing screenshot http://www.flickr.com/photos/donpdonp/654028514/ Jun 28 23:26:41 links to the contrary always welcome... afaik they've always been public about everything (if sometimes tardy) Jun 28 23:27:19 http://www.flickr.com/photos/donpdonp/654028514/ Jun 28 23:27:23 sigh Jun 28 23:27:32 why sigh? Jun 28 23:27:58 * SpeedEvil can't run the intarweb thingy properly. Jun 28 23:28:03 the very first information i got about the neo included the apprx. 350$ price and some features including wifi Jun 28 23:28:06 I keep mispasting stuff. Jun 28 23:28:13 Tetraden: from where. Jun 28 23:28:31 There have been _many_ inaccurate web reviews. Jun 28 23:28:51 hell, wifi has never been confirmed until now Jun 28 23:28:54 Tetraden: when we tell you that we think you're mistaken, the correct response is to find something that proves otherwise. Jun 28 23:29:03 Tetraden: not to just repeat the mistake. Jun 28 23:29:25 Tetraden: $350 is pretty damn exact considering they are going to be $300 and $400 Jun 28 23:29:27 night all Jun 28 23:29:28 it was in an interview with harald welte Jun 28 23:29:51 * balrog-kun remembers the $350 was even on the official site at openmoko.com Jun 28 23:31:15 Tetraden, well, hard to comment without seeing the exact thing. Plus, reporters still get things wrong. Jun 28 23:31:44 but *shrug* Jun 28 23:31:47 the interview was at the 9th of march 2007 Jun 28 23:32:02 well, $450 Jun 28 23:32:10 in a german podcast called "chaosradio express" Jun 28 23:32:34 he personally told the wifi feature and the estimated price Jun 28 23:32:36 Tetraden: so what are you saying? that they didn't gave a realistic estimate because they said it was going to be $350 and it's $450? Jun 28 23:32:47 that's ridiculous Jun 28 23:32:50 400 Jun 28 23:32:56 oh Jun 28 23:33:30 Tetraden: you do sound like you're acting pretty entitled. FIC doesn't owe you anything; I'm sure Harald gave the best estimate he could at the time. Jun 28 23:33:56 to me you're sounding like you're kidding Jun 28 23:34:13 450 is nearly 130% of 350, thats a big difference Jun 28 23:34:18 * mjr just wonders if wifi was really more than just a pipe-dream in March Jun 28 23:34:32 It was a 'we want it' Jun 28 23:34:39 But they diddn't have a plan on the chipset Jun 28 23:34:49 yeah, that's what I thought Jun 28 23:35:02 okay do this: (350+450)/2 they weren't that wrong at all Jun 28 23:35:08 yeah. so, you're complaining that they didn't know what the price would be.. before they knew what chips they were going to use. Jun 28 23:35:10 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko Jun 28 23:35:14 Get. Over. It. Jun 28 23:35:26 Was posted after March Jun 28 23:35:40 Tetraden: that's like telling someone you're leaving in five minutes and then leaving in 6:30 minutes Jun 28 23:35:52 for me below 20 would still be a realistic estimate Jun 28 23:36:06 they were 50 usd out Jun 28 23:36:14 not a great deal Jun 28 23:37:34 what i found more annoying was the delays, but not long now! Jun 28 23:37:36 :) Jun 28 23:38:07 damn im a student, do you know how much 100$ can be? Jun 28 23:39:12 buy GTA01 if you want cheap :þ Jun 28 23:39:13 so effectively you're complaining that they didn't give you an *exact* to cent price 10 months before they actually knew what hardware was going to be in it, you're just trolling Jun 28 23:39:26 it is 2/3 of my total income for one month Jun 28 23:39:32 hmmm, $100... 30 drinks Jun 28 23:40:42 anyway yeah, I don't know german enough to go see if Harald was indeed too confident-sounding and actually said something about a wifi phone at 350, but it's useless to whine now anyhow Jun 28 23:41:35 to me they've done a damn good job, and even offering the 01 at lowered cost Jun 28 23:42:17 they were clearly seeing, that the final version will get more expensive. they simply could have told it ore do a new estimate. noone can tell me any corporate on this world is not planning everything for months Jun 28 23:42:23 it was officially state that the final price was going to be $350 and it was pretty damn good prediction as it turned out now in the announcement Jun 28 23:42:27 *stated Jun 28 23:43:12 Tetraden, but in this case we happen to know that they didn't know what was going to go into the GTA02 Jun 28 23:44:22 <[lankester]> the wifi chip Jun 28 23:44:28 <[lankester]> was found like 1 month ago I think ? Jun 28 23:44:44 <[lankester]> geez Jun 28 23:44:54 <[lankester]> a good .. open .. unlock phone for 450$ Jun 28 23:45:08 i cant believe this. its like building a house and dont knowing if it will have doors when its final. Jun 28 23:45:20 <[lankester]> Tetraden: the first plan was without wifi Jun 28 23:45:33 <[lankester]> since everybody was asking for it Jun 28 23:45:41 <[lankester]> they added wifi to the final version Jun 28 23:45:46 <[lankester]> they are doing this for US Jun 28 23:46:14 Tetraden: this is how it's down in the industry Jun 28 23:46:17 Tetraden: *done Jun 28 23:46:19 wifi is ok, i need wifi too, bu Jun 28 23:46:25 The initial hardware was _not_ meant for OpenMoko. Jun 28 23:46:27 Tetraden: you're seriously out of good complaints already and you're making up things Jun 28 23:46:33 Tetraden: incremental confidence towards final specs and prices Jun 28 23:46:35 The initial design that is. Jun 28 23:46:51 * Stephmw looks at the time Jun 28 23:46:53 Tetraden, you can read the mailing list archives if you want to see how uncertain the final GTA02 setup has really been for a long time Jun 28 23:47:07 <[lankester]> now it final Jun 28 23:47:13 <[lankester]> and now they know the price Jun 28 23:47:19 looks like bed-time, gotta go herd some mobilephones tomorrow... they need a good flash Jun 28 23:47:24 'night guys Jun 28 23:47:27 Anyway, if you think you're getting screwed over, don't buy it. This is just unproductive. Jun 28 23:47:44 <[lankester]> exact Jun 28 23:47:47 mjr: i didnt know about the mailing lists until last monday Jun 28 23:47:49 <[lankester]> go buy a windows mobile phone Jun 28 23:48:14 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] Jun 28 23:51:57 o an iphone Jun 28 23:52:05 Greetings all. Jun 28 23:52:09 <[lankester]> too expensive :p Jun 28 23:52:11 Tetraden: well - the information has been out there, readily available for several months now. Jun 28 23:52:17 <[lankester]> for him Jun 28 23:52:20 <[lankester]> he is poor Jun 28 23:52:29 Nokia 1110. Jun 28 23:53:05 <[lankester]> damn I hate symbian Jun 28 23:53:21 * SpeedEvil always misreads that as sybian. Jun 28 23:53:36 i already have an HTC device but the several hardware and software issues are driving me crazy Jun 28 23:53:52 <[lankester]> SpeedEvil: ;) Jun 28 23:54:08 Well, why don't you get on the mailing list with the hardware and software devs and ask them to help you with it? Jun 28 23:54:18 Oh yeah, that's right. You can't. :-P Jun 28 23:54:39 this is the advantage of an open company. Jun 28 23:55:03 <[lankester]> yeah but the close company wont LIE to him 1 years before the product goes out about the price Jun 28 23:55:06 <[lankester]> :P Jun 28 23:56:34 [lankester]: who's been lying? Jun 28 23:57:05 no, its not falsehood, its some kind of lack of information and this is really not necsessary in an open project. Jun 28 23:58:20 Tetraden: only the software was promised to be open. quite separate from the hardware (which was never promised to be open from the beginning, but is somewhat open (e.g. svn commits) already. Jun 28 23:58:39 no-one at FIC/OpenMoko ever promised to be open about marketing or manufacturing or sales. Jun 28 23:58:47 The software is $0. Make your own phone. Jun 28 23:59:41 Tetraden: would you please stop trolling Jun 28 23:59:48 <[lankester]> rwhitby: nobody .. it just that TeringTuby think that :p Jun 29 00:00:39 [lankester]: apologies - just caught up on the backlog :-) Jun 29 00:00:56 <[lankester]> np :) Jun 29 00:01:33 <[lankester]> I was ironic .. and english is not my first language .. so it was hard maybe to see it :) Jun 29 00:02:03 night all Jun 29 00:02:12 :) Jun 29 00:02:44 [lankester]: no, your english was fine. my not reading the backlog before commenting wasn't :-) Jun 29 00:18:41 http://www.google.com/accounts/VE?c=3944209141247777535&hl=en Jun 29 00:18:53 Parody or Hate speech, Polls at 11. Jun 29 00:19:01 mis-paste - soz Jun 29 00:22:30 * SpeedEvil ponders bluetooth headwear. Hat speech. Jun 29 01:24:04 yay- the counter is gone Jun 29 01:25:32 i dont think counter is gone Jun 29 01:25:38 counter Jun 29 01:25:38 (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 10:34:17 (10.440±1.0 days) (1641;242) Jun 29 01:43:12 http://pastebin.osuosl.org/1631 Jun 29 01:43:19 anyone know whats up? ^ Jun 29 01:44:58 bartel something with x11.. is it running in at least 16bit mode? Jun 29 01:46:00 roh: DefautDepth is set to 24. Do you know how I could check? Jun 29 01:46:18 sorry.. no. Jun 29 01:46:35 i have also 24bit (fglrx) and it works.. how did you compile qemu? Jun 29 01:46:45 make qemu Jun 29 01:46:58 MokoMakefile Jun 29 01:47:09 ok.. on which distro are you? Jun 29 01:47:15 Debian etch testing Jun 29 01:47:33 sounds all fine so far...*sigh* Jun 29 01:47:49 hrm, strange. I'll look into it Jun 29 01:47:50 thanks! Jun 29 01:48:11 xinerama? Jun 29 01:50:35 try googeling for single lines from the error.. like the one with the ids in are you on amd64 or on regular i386? Jun 29 01:51:40 http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-users/2006-December/023956.html Jun 29 01:52:47 and these guys have another (not helping us here in detail) solution http://grass.itc.it/faq/xcolormap.html Jun 29 01:53:33 roh: 1386, thank you Jun 29 02:08:20 i think we need someone with deeper x11-knowledge Jun 29 02:09:05 heh, agreed Jun 29 02:12:24 heh... trolltech seems to be concerned http://www.golem.de/0706/53162.html Jun 29 02:13:52 hey guys.. is the nokia e90 released yet?? i have seen a ton on ebay and around other websites. Jun 29 02:23:14 roh: so, I changed video drivers from the nvidia binary to nv, dpkg-reconfigured xserver-xorg and am now running fine Jun 29 02:23:32 i believe it had something to do with glx but it is beyond me Jun 29 02:25:43 roh: the greenphone is neat ... but $700 ... no Jun 29 02:28:34 bartel eek... yeah.. binary x11-drivers are crap Jun 29 02:51:09 roh: fwiw, it was: Option "xinerama" "on" in the xorg.conf that causes this Jun 29 02:54:57 xinerama not playing nice **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jun 29 02:59:56 2007