**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jun 29 02:59:56 2007
Jun 29 03:26:49 <roh> bartel thanks for the info.. we should put that into the wiki i think
Jun 29 04:02:36 <mrfeetio> from what i understand the 1.5 will not have multitouch, are there plans to add it to v2?
Jun 29 04:03:43 <aloril> would it be wrong to say this:  |Connectors
Jun 29 04:03:43 <aloril>  |USB 2.0 on proprietary iPod connector
Jun 29 04:03:43 <aloril>  |Standard USB 1.1 (unpowered), with a Mini-B receptor (can be connected via adapter to both  host and client devices), Debug Board v2 (JTAG and serial console) in Advanced version
Jun 29 04:03:44 <aloril> ?
Jun 29 04:03:57 <aloril> debug board itself is not connector ;-)
Jun 29 04:06:55 <linux_galore> YO YO
Jun 29 04:07:35 <aloril> "2IC, SPI and Debug board connector" I gues
Jun 29 04:14:59 <aloril> mrfeetio: don't think touch screen will change in GTA02, no idea about GTA03 (next year model)
Jun 29 04:17:01 <linux_galore> heh, Microsoft research comment on /. .. Bears are Catholic.  The Pope shits in the woods.
Jun 29 04:39:17 <aloril> in case you haven't noticed (from ML or from digg): http://digg.com/linux_unix/OpenMoko_the_Anti_iPhone
Jun 29 04:43:13 <aloril> comment from digg: "I was about to buy a iphone then I remembered this project. I think I know a better way to spend my 300 dollars"
Jun 29 04:44:46 <summatusmentis> aloril: that's the truth
Jun 29 04:46:14 <aloril> another one: "Talk about a Iphone deflater with this on the main page of Digg."
Jun 29 04:46:46 <aloril> surprisingly positive so far
Jun 29 04:52:06 <summatusmentis> aloril: some of it can be quite negative... ugly, iPhone will be better done, etc. etc.
Jun 29 04:52:23 <summatusmentis> also, you have to take into account that it's digg, how many non-techy users read digg?
Jun 29 04:52:55 <aloril> yeah, but in past I have seen a lot negative comments ...
Jun 29 04:53:20 <summatusmentis> you know.. openmoko should talk to mozilla... they've got $$$, they've got a product that they could, potentially, use to provide a browser for openmoko...
Jun 29 04:53:45 <summatusmentis> even if it was just advert dollars in the NYT(similar to what they did w/ firefox)
Jun 29 04:54:05 <summatusmentis> that's really what openmoko needs(once supply is available), they need to get heard of
Jun 29 04:57:40 <juri_> they just need to ship something. i'm sure all their current product inventory is spoken for.
Jun 29 04:58:05 <summatusmentis> juri_: that's true...
Jun 29 04:58:19 <jonesy8> will the developer's version have the built in phone?
Jun 29 04:58:19 <aloril> jonesy8: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 04:58:51 <jonesy8> thanks
Jun 29 04:59:12 <summatusmentis> jonesy8: yep, phone will work, _basic_ gps is available... I think not much else though
Jun 29 04:59:13 <LittleIdiot> *gnaah* how i hate these neo vs iphone articles...
Jun 29 04:59:30 <LittleIdiot> ...iphone isn't open, period.
Jun 29 04:59:57 <summatusmentis> LittleIdiot: true... interfaces, etc.(stuff that the general public cares about) are very similar
Jun 29 05:00:01 <aloril> hehe, just added answer for that question into faq ( Q: What kind of connectivity? )
Jun 29 05:00:01 <aloril> A: GSM, GPRS 2.5G (Not EDGE), Bluetooth 2.0 EDR, USB in all versions. WiFi: Atheros AR6K in GTA02. (No 3G in year 2007 models) 
Jun 29 05:01:05 <aloril> LittleIdiot: that's why many call it Anti iPhone ;-)
Jun 29 05:04:39 <LittleIdiot> yeah, thats how flamewars start ;)
Jun 29 05:08:23 <aloril> LittleIdiot: anyway, its annoying to see time after time that OpenMoko + Neo1973 is a copy of iPhone ..
Jun 29 05:11:51 * aloril wonders why openmoko.com is slow? its just static page after all ...
Jun 29 05:12:25 <roh> its a single machine slice and a lot of people klicking atm
Jun 29 05:14:51 <roh> uh.. shouldnt be so slow
Jun 29 05:15:29 * aloril wonders how much of documentation of "SMedia 3362 Graphics Accelerator" will be revealed or whether all drivers must be written by persons under NDA (for example OpenGL related drivers)
Jun 29 05:23:28 <ColdFyre> * You have been invited to #mIRCSetUp by corka (irc.SHOUTcast.com) does anyone else get that daily?
Jun 29 05:31:18 <hrw> morning
Jun 29 05:32:23 <linux_galore> hmm digg effect ?
Jun 29 05:34:06 <aloril> from digg: "500 digs this fast?! Oh NOES! They only have 1000 of the version for sale on the 9th, and now I'll never get one. I hate digg."
Jun 29 05:34:13 <happycube> lol
Jun 29 05:34:35 <CM> Hehe
Jun 29 05:35:06 <hrw> ;)
Jun 29 05:35:40 <aloril> another comment: "from the actual consumer standpoint...    yawn."
Jun 29 05:36:08 <aloril> well.. (s)he is right at the moment, but in future hopefully not
Jun 29 05:36:24 <aloril> (of course right, its not meant for consumers currently ;-)
Jun 29 05:36:47 <pjz> yah, I'm saving my pennies for a GTA02, which should be out around christmas
Jun 29 06:07:43 <fiberspy> Hello all
Jun 29 06:12:19 <fiberspy> so, what kind of software will the moko ship with?
Jun 29 06:12:19 <aloril> fiberspy: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 06:25:32 <linux_galore> fiberspy: technically you should be able to run any Linux apps that are designed to work with small screen devices, there are tons of alternate browser, media players etc
Jun 29 06:27:17 <linux_galore> anyone get Dilo (browser) working on the GTA01 ? http://www.dillo.org/
Jun 29 06:47:28 <linux_galore> openmoko is on the front page of digg
Jun 29 06:49:06 <linux_galore> dont you hate the article discription "iPhone killer", to be honest its nothing like the iPhone
Jun 29 06:51:10 <linux_galore> like calling a new breed of German Shepard a Terrier killer because they are both dogs, the openmoko is a totally different idea that is a mobile phone and thats as close as it comes to an iPhone
Jun 29 06:51:13 <aloril> well, it says 'Anti iPhone' and it is many ways opposite ;-)
Jun 29 06:51:40 <linux_galore> aloril: Im reading another article not the digg one
Jun 29 06:51:43 <aloril> but it should be: iPhone is anti OpenMoko ;-)
Jun 29 06:52:13 <hrw> anyway iPhone is released when Neo1973/OpenMoko is not.
Jun 29 06:52:22 <linux_galore> sorry just realised I didnt mention it
Jun 29 06:52:33 <hrw> so for media OpenMoko is 'anti iPhone' instead of vice versa
Jun 29 06:53:14 <aloril> hrw: yeah, missed by few weeks
Jun 29 06:53:37 <hrw> aloril: nearly 4 months
Jun 29 06:53:54 * aloril guesses Sean is busy with ".. to setup the online infrastructure and figure out how to ship these phones."
Jun 29 06:53:58 <hrw> aloril: developer phones was first announced to be available in March
Jun 29 06:54:03 <linux_galore> to me an iPhone is a pretty looking device with lots of consumer lockin that the Telco's like but its not a good consumer device in my books
Jun 29 06:54:40 <hrw> linux_galore: atleast it does not have so thick case
Jun 29 06:54:55 <aloril> hrw: well, I remember January myself ;-)  (but I was referring to getting it shipping for money)
Jun 29 06:55:06 <linux_galore> hrw: aah thats a scam. its very wide thats why it can be thin
Jun 29 06:55:35 <hrw> linux_galore: did you had opened neo in hands?
Jun 29 06:56:46 <linux_galore> hrw: no I have seen the measurements. the moko is thick but the iPhone gets aways with it by making it thin and wide instead or narrow and thick, also the difference isnt as much as you think
Jun 29 06:57:12 <linux_galore> hrw: its an illusion in a way
Jun 29 06:57:16 <hrw>     2007-02-11 Phase 0: Developer Preview
Jun 29 06:57:17 <hrw>     2007-03-11 Phase 1: Official Developer Launch
Jun 29 06:57:24 <hrw> aloril: I am talking about this
Jun 29 06:57:40 <hrw> linux_galore: I have 2 neos here
Jun 29 06:57:57 <wehttamb_> counter
Jun 29 06:57:57 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 05:01:58 (10.210±1.0 days) (1642;242)
Jun 29 06:58:41 <aloril> hrw: yeah, I guess that was first announcement with dates
Jun 29 06:58:45 <linux_galore> hrw: yeah, you could make the neo thin like an iPhone by making it wider thus you get more space for parts
Jun 29 06:59:35 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Wishlist:Text_Input]] [[IPhone]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[FAQ]]
Jun 29 07:00:21 <linux_galore> hrw: only thin I dont like is they should have used a flat face instead of the recessed setup
Jun 29 07:00:25 <linux_galore> think*
Jun 29 07:01:06 <linux_galore> thing*
Jun 29 07:01:08 <linux_galore> grr
Jun 29 07:01:08 <wehttamb_> can you order the neo1973 yet?
Jun 29 07:01:19 <linux_galore> wehttamb_: July 9
Jun 29 07:01:53 <wehttamb_> so u cant order before then
Jun 29 07:04:37 <linux_galore> wehttamb_: note unless unless your a developer 
Jun 29 07:04:52 <linux_galore> Im out my brain is fried
Jun 29 07:04:52 <wehttamb_> k
Jun 29 07:05:05 <linux_galore> wehttamb_: migh want to wait for the GTA02
Jun 29 07:05:08 <linux_galore> might*
Jun 29 07:05:25 <hrw> linux_galore: anyone can order
Jun 29 07:05:49 <wehttamb_> yea im just interisted in seeing them actually available to be bought though
Jun 29 07:06:10 <linux_galore> hrw: yeah but you wotn be able to till July 9, I asked yesterday
Jun 29 07:06:17 <hrw> linux_galore: sure
Jun 29 07:06:43 <linux_galore> hrw: Im saying the only people getting any from what I can see before that date are developers
Jun 29 07:07:19 <hrw> linux_galore: where it was told? and by who?
Jun 29 07:08:16 <linux_galore> hrw: well all the images Im seeing with people with one are dev's
Jun 29 07:08:49 <hrw> linux_galore: ah.
Jun 29 07:09:32 <hrw> linux_galore: from your talk I got version more like "anyone can order from 9th july, but devels can order sooner'
Jun 29 07:09:35 <hrw> ;DD
Jun 29 07:09:45 <linux_galore> ah
Jun 29 07:10:03 <linux_galore> no I didnt say the word "order"
Jun 29 07:10:20 <hrw> 29 09:04 < wehttamb_> so u cant order before then
Jun 29 07:10:20 <hrw> 29 09:06 < linux_galore> wehttamb_: note unless unless your a developer
Jun 29 07:10:47 <hrw> 'can I order before 9th? no, unless you are developer'
Jun 29 07:11:01 <linux_galore> hrw: I just saw order and own in the same context
Jun 29 07:11:15 <hrw> English is different in misc parts of world:D
Jun 29 07:12:51 <linux_galore> hrw: Im still flipping a coin when it comes to the GTA01 because I need wifi 
Jun 29 07:13:05 <hrw> ;)
Jun 29 07:13:50 <linux_galore> hrw: its pretty cheap but I cant really do much with it because all my gear is wifi based
Jun 29 07:14:53 <linux_galore> be fun to hack though and I expect thats the general idea
Jun 29 07:22:29 <wehttamb_> counter?
Jun 29 07:22:29 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 04:37:26 (10.193±1.0 days) (1643;242)
Jun 29 07:50:30 <aloril> hi XorA 
Jun 29 07:51:24 <XorA> yo aloril 
Jun 29 07:51:34 * XorA hmms, wrong openmoko chennel, bye
Jun 29 07:51:43 <FuzzyCat> bleh
Jun 29 07:59:12 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jun 29 07:59:55 <aloril> morning Hopscotch 
Jun 29 08:39:36 <Elleo> hi; as far as I understand gsmd communicates using standard protocols over UART to the GSM chip which itself is relatively independant of the operating system, is this correct?
Jun 29 08:39:36 <aloril> Elleo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 08:41:01 <aloril> yes
Jun 29 08:41:06 <Elleo> great thanks
Jun 29 08:41:18 <aloril> (basically modem using AT commands)
Jun 29 08:41:28 <Elleo> I'm considering trying to port gsmd and libgsm to run on the Treo, which has a very similar hardware setup
Jun 29 08:45:20 <dergringo> hello
Jun 29 08:45:30 <pH5> Elleo: have a look at the patches on the gsmd-devel list (or in openembedded), maybe they are interesting for you. we have gsmd already running on some different htc devices.
Jun 29 08:45:50 <dergringo> Wow! I've been waiting for a open smartphone for ages!
Jun 29 08:46:50 <Tjikkun> dergringo: i think everybody was waiting, now finally some people are doing :)
Jun 29 08:48:27 <dergringo> does anybody know what the wifi chipset will be?
Jun 29 08:48:27 <aloril> GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jun 29 08:48:31 <Elleo> pH5: great, thanks
Jun 29 08:48:52 <dergringo> Atheros :) Great!
Jun 29 08:58:35 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
Jun 29 09:05:21 <ynezz_> wtf wifi?
Jun 29 09:05:28 <ynezz_> wifi
Jun 29 09:05:28 <aloril> GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jun 29 09:05:31 <ynezz_> ah
Jun 29 09:05:35 <ynezz_> nice :)
Jun 29 09:06:42 <oelewapperke> aloril: will it have extra buttons ?
Jun 29 09:07:24 <dergringo> oelewapperke: aloril seems to be a bot (girl?) ;)
Jun 29 09:07:29 <oelewapperke> ah
Jun 29 09:07:42 <Kero> part-time bot :)
Jun 29 09:07:56 <oelewapperke> does anyone know if the buttons suggestion will be implemented ? with 2x 4 buttons on either side of the screen
Jun 29 09:08:09 <oelewapperke> I'd really love a device like that
Jun 29 09:08:31 <oelewapperke> and I do wonder what the difference between "base" and "advanced" is
Jun 29 09:09:38 <oelewapperke> 2 3d accelerometers rocks as well
Jun 29 09:09:45 <aloril2> cyborg actually
Jun 29 09:11:04 <Elrond> oelewapperke - Let's see, how good they are.
Jun 29 09:11:35 <Elrond> BTW: Do we have any info on how long the GTA01 will be available for $300?
Jun 29 09:12:58 <oelewapperke> I guess there won't be any buttons :-( reading the page 
Jun 29 09:13:28 <oelewapperke> I hate these types of guys, with just a touchscreen
Jun 29 09:14:06 <oelewapperke> and it's 640x480 hmmmm
Jun 29 09:14:21 <oelewapperke> will make a great platform to play leisure suit larry :-p
Jun 29 09:14:46 <Elrond> oelewapperke - two buttons: Power and AUX. ;o)
Jun 29 09:15:06 <Elrond> How much disk space does "leisure suit larry" take? ;)
Jun 29 09:15:11 <ynezz> 2GB
Jun 29 09:17:41 <Elrond> That's a big microsd. ;)
Jun 29 09:18:08 <oelewapperke> ynezz: depends on what version
Jun 29 09:18:14 <oelewapperke> version 1 is 360 kilobyte I believe
Jun 29 09:18:25 <oelewapperke> and lsl6 is still only 50 or so megabytes
Jun 29 09:18:35 <xkr47> counter
Jun 29 09:18:36 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 3 days 02:41:19 (10.112±1.0 days) (1644;242)
Jun 29 09:19:04 <oelewapperke> if you buy the $300 version, do you get an updated phone later ?
Jun 29 09:19:13 <xkr47> for 450 yeah
Jun 29 09:19:18 <xkr47> :)
Jun 29 09:19:28 <oelewapperke> see topic ?
Jun 29 09:19:35 <oelewapperke> or do you mean you gotta pay twice ?
Jun 29 09:21:21 <Stephmw> howdy
Jun 29 09:21:46 <Stephmw> oelewapperke: you get to pay once per device you buy
Jun 29 09:21:53 <Stephmw> oelewapperke: pretty straightforward really ;-)
Jun 29 09:24:47 <dergringo> has the phone vibration alarm?
Jun 29 09:25:08 <Elrond> dergringo - It has a vibrator, yes.  The rest is up to the software. ;)
Jun 29 09:25:37 <dergringo> nice! where do i have to sign to buy that masterpiece? :D
Jun 29 09:25:58 <alphaone> dergringo: The question is when.
Jun 29 09:26:06 <alphaone> July 9th
Jun 29 09:26:36 <oelewapperke> but it's the GTA01 model ?
Jun 29 09:26:39 <alphaone> Or as soon as the shop goes online on www.openmoko.com
Jun 29 09:26:45 <alphaone> yes
Jun 29 09:27:03 <ynezz> it'll be sold out in 1 hour anyway... :p
Jun 29 09:27:23 <Elrond> ynezz - *G*
Jun 29 09:27:37 <Elrond> oelewapperke - Hmm, so lsl6 will fit on the included microsd. ;o)
Jun 29 09:27:58 <oelewapperke> actually all lsl games except 7 will
Jun 29 09:28:08 <oelewapperke> but without buttons not many other games will be playable
Jun 29 09:28:15 <oelewapperke> say you want something like mario, or a racing game
Jun 29 09:28:18 <oelewapperke> you NEED buttons
Jun 29 09:28:50 <oelewapperke> can the phone be fully usb powered ?
Jun 29 09:28:59 <oelewapperke> also for charging etc ?
Jun 29 09:29:12 <dergringo> integrate bluetooth and usb2! So I can build up an remote game controller
Jun 29 09:34:03 <oelewapperke> you know they have a type of fluid keyboard in the colruyt (dept store), I wonder if I can cut out 2x4 buttons and glue them to the neo
Jun 29 09:34:09 <oelewapperke> then interface it *somehow*
Jun 29 09:34:50 <dergringo> :D
Jun 29 09:35:19 <oelewapperke> this debug connector has enough lines, but only 1 gpio pin
Jun 29 09:38:38 <oelewapperke> I guess at 1 gpio pin to 1 key should be easy to interface 
Jun 29 09:38:56 <oelewapperke> it's jtag connector, so it should go directly to pins on the processor, right ?
Jun 29 09:39:05 <oelewapperke> perhaps they can be reset to also be gpio pins ?
Jun 29 09:39:14 <hrw> oelewapperke: 8 keys == 3 lines
Jun 29 09:39:55 <oelewapperke> yeah but still only have 1
Jun 29 09:40:04 * hrw -> outside
Jun 29 09:42:16 <rwhitby> oelewapperke: jtag pins are usually dedicated
Jun 29 09:44:52 <oelewapperke> rwhitby: the chip has 130 gpio ports configureable
Jun 29 09:44:57 <oelewapperke> so probably there is a way to choose
Jun 29 09:45:25 <rwhitby> oelewapperke: I design these chips.  You never make the JTAG pins configurable.
Jun 29 09:46:04 <oelewapperke> do you think then perhaps the 9 serial lines can be reconfigured ?
Jun 29 09:46:22 <rwhitby> serial pins often are multi-purpose
Jun 29 09:47:07 <rwhitby> just get the data sheet for the device and look.
Jun 29 09:47:40 <oelewapperke> working on it :-p
Jun 29 09:48:00 <oelewapperke> but with the serial pins you have much more chance of lines being interconnected in strange ways
Jun 29 09:48:38 <rwhitby> oelewapperke: http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/S3C2410/2410UserManual.pdf
Jun 29 09:49:03 <oelewapperke> I've got that one
Jun 29 09:49:17 <oelewapperke> I wonder if they're using the FBGA version
Jun 29 09:49:31 <rwhitby> page 9-1 to 9-6
Jun 29 09:50:10 <rwhitby> (note the JTAG pins are not shared with GPIO)
Jun 29 09:50:41 <oelewapperke> where do you think the 9-pin serial is connected ?
Jun 29 09:51:42 <oelewapperke> perhaps GPH0-9 ?
Jun 29 09:52:15 <rwhitby> again, look to the doco on the wiki: https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA01Bv3/gpio.txt
Jun 29 09:52:24 <rwhitby> (that's v3, v4 may be different)
Jun 29 09:52:44 <rwhitby> there's v4: https://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/GTA01Bv4/gpio.txt
Jun 29 09:53:10 <rwhitby> You can find all this yourself on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Processor
Jun 29 09:55:40 <oelewapperke> I guess it should be doable to use the SPI debug interface 
Jun 29 09:55:54 <oelewapperke> has 3 lines, that can be reconfigured to be GPIO input/output pins
Jun 29 09:57:18 <oelewapperke> I wonder if they are directly forwarded to the debug port or if there are components in between
Jun 29 10:03:49 <SpeedEvil> It's easy to just add a GPIO chip to the SPI bus.
Jun 29 10:03:52 <SpeedEvil> Job done.
Jun 29 10:06:01 <jgoo> It has been so long since I last checked this project, I was very suprised to see so much progress
Jun 29 10:07:02 <rwhitby-n800> and you saved yourself all that senseless waiting too :-)
Jun 29 10:07:14 <jgoo> I did check java-pkg subproject, is that alive? I didn't see much activity - will need to grok the wiki now
Jun 29 10:07:18 <SpeedEvil> Not all.
Jun 29 10:07:23 * xkr47 ponders what senseful waiting is
Jun 29 10:07:28 <SpeedEvil> still got 11 days.
Jun 29 10:07:43 <jgoo> yep, now I am more anxious about this then the iPhone
Jun 29 10:08:06 <jgoo> *than. Hrm. still, working on some ui threading issues, so back to work!
Jun 29 10:08:17 <xkr47> so you are standing in the iPhone queue and when you reach the point where you can get one you say "naah, I'll get a neo instead" :D
Jun 29 10:12:12 <jgoo> xkr47: You get to the front of the line and ask for a PS3 - then realising your mistake punch the engadget bloggers in the face, and run out screaming.
Jun 29 10:12:15 <jgoo> or is that just me
Jun 29 10:12:57 <xkr47> maybe the entire line
Jun 29 10:13:24 <jgoo> haha. go into apple store, come out with a PS3, and shout 'yes finally'. Yeah, I hate engadget too. They link*uckers
Jun 29 10:13:39 <xkr47> :D
Jun 29 10:26:10 <jgoo> as in Threepwood?
Jun 29 10:44:07 <jgoo> since I have been out of the loop - can I get a quick poll, what are most people eagrely awaiting out of openmoko? i.e., for people in here, what is the key feature, or killer in built component, or is it the potential?
Jun 29 10:44:58 <SpeedEvil> Able to do custom stupid apps.
Jun 29 10:45:15 <SpeedEvil> For example, a trivial GPS track + bluetooth voice logging
Jun 29 10:45:18 <jgoo> also, I am looking at the next 'killer' mobile phone being an ultra portable, with output or host capabilities to 'run desktop apps' on the processor, when connected to a hub (like an OQO2)
Jun 29 10:45:26 <SpeedEvil> For use with http://www.openstreetmap.com/
Jun 29 10:45:32 <SpeedEvil> Unlikely.
Jun 29 10:46:05 <jgoo> SpeedEvil: I like that idea, and open streetmap is great, however, I can do that with my SE (Java + bluetooth GPS + GPRS) Still, it is a much nicer looking platform for it
Jun 29 10:46:06 <SpeedEvil> Expense, connector problems, power problems, ...
Jun 29 10:47:01 <jgoo> SpeedEvil: it will have a sync / power dock right? From here, it could host an x server - I don't know, I am just thinking that phones could 'morph' into ultraportables one day
Jun 29 10:47:22 <SpeedEvil> It has a USB dock, and yes in principle you can connect it to an xterm.
Jun 29 10:47:45 <SpeedEvil> Practically, the amount of processing power you can fit into a mobile is small.
Jun 29 10:48:33 <SpeedEvil> It's generally cheaper just to jam it in the terminal device nowadays.
Jun 29 10:48:45 <SpeedEvil> What might work moderately well is portable storage.
Jun 29 10:55:03 <GaKKGaKk> I thought the Neo didn't have "multi-touch" :\
Jun 29 10:55:20 <jgoo> SpeedEvil: I am thinking, map ~ to the device, carry your shell setup, files, and that... portable home / office
Jun 29 10:56:33 <Stephmw> GaKKGaKk: iirc it averages the pressure points
Jun 29 10:56:54 <jgoo> Stephmw: surely that could be changed to get raw pressure points?
Jun 29 10:57:17 <Stephmw> jgoo: depends on where the averaging occurs I imagine
Jun 29 10:57:21 <jgoo> or is that a feature of the touch surface itself (it can only register one point, from one signal, and work out the closest point)
Jun 29 10:57:49 <jgoo> Stephmw: something to look at, I need to catch up on this, any browsable svn / code maps? =)
Jun 29 10:58:58 <GaKKGaKk> So it will some kind of virtual multi touch then? With software saying: "If we have the touch point moving quickly to another position, without releasing pressure completely, we have another finger on the screen" :\
Jun 29 10:59:26 <SpeedEvil> basically.
Jun 29 10:59:34 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Minimo/it]] [[Wishlist_-_Hardware_-_Novel_Devices]] [[Minimo]] [[Application_Developer/it]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Flashing_openmoko]]
Jun 29 10:59:49 <Stephmw> jgoo: should be linked to from the wiki
Jun 29 10:59:51 <jgoo> GakKGaKk: touch screens work in many ways, this one (don't know what it is) might not be able to sense > 1 contact, only that there is a contact, and the center of the signal is around x,y
Jun 29 10:59:53 <SpeedEvil> When you press this sort of toucscreen, the output point is somewhere in the bounding box of all touches.
Jun 29 11:00:38 <SpeedEvil> You do not get pressure as such.
Jun 29 11:01:10 <jgoo> hey, you can't have everything, if this had pressure sensitivity, I'd buy 10
Jun 29 11:01:41 * ewon plans to write a GPL'd version of http://www.targetplot.com.au/targplot.htm for the moko
Jun 29 11:01:51 <SpeedEvil> what is it?
Jun 29 11:01:59 <GaKKGaKk> It would be nice if it could indeed sense more than one contact, or you end up with the same thing as the laptop touchpad.... Not nearly multitouch...
Jun 29 11:02:02 * SpeedEvil has outbound connection problems ATM.
Jun 29 11:02:04 <ewon> target shooting performance analysis
Jun 29 11:02:08 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Jun 29 11:02:24 <SpeedEvil> GaKKGaKk: yeah - not this version though.
Jun 29 11:02:41 <jgoo> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#LCD_Module_.28LCM.29
Jun 29 11:02:51 <ewon> basically, you have a target on the screen, same as the one you are shooting at. Hit on the target with the stylus where the arrow / bullet impacted on the real target, and it will show you over time the trends in your shot groups
Jun 29 11:03:08 <SpeedEvil> Fun.
Jun 29 11:03:24 <jgoo> GakKGaKk: I don't think laptop touchpads are multitouch though, they just know the center of the touch... I think (unless you can hack them)
Jun 29 11:03:25 <ewon> I wrote a prototype in java a few years back, but I didn't have the sheer bloodymindedness to keep writing it
Jun 29 11:03:33 <SpeedEvil> Add a couple of servos, and a camera, and you could add an aimbot! :)
Jun 29 11:03:40 <jgoo> GakKGaKk: ignore what I said, I realised you said the same thing
Jun 29 11:04:23 <jgoo> ewon: this is basically a heat map application for shooting?
Jun 29 11:05:10 <jgoo> ewon: If you want I'll write one up tonight on superwaba... should be pretty easy (if you don't want features like undo and that, just plain 'keep adding until you manually delete the db file' :-)
Jun 29 11:06:01 <ewon> jgoo: no thanks, half the fun is in writing it myself :)
Jun 29 11:06:02 <Stephmw> jgoo: you're involved in superwaba?
Jun 29 11:06:19 <jgoo> hm. openmoko case mods. DIY LED / cathode tube flashing phone on ring
Jun 29 11:06:25 <ewon> o0
Jun 29 11:06:42 <jgoo> Stephmw: only as an end developer (3.5 full apps)
Jun 29 11:07:15 <Stephmw> ahh, 'k
Jun 29 11:07:27 <jgoo> have submitted some code back to the main branch, some popup code
Jun 29 11:07:33 <jgoo> and some color pallete code
Jun 29 11:07:43 <jgoo> s/color/colour ;-)
Jun 29 11:08:15 <Stephmw> s/pallete/palette/ no worries :)
Jun 29 11:10:02 <jgoo> heh. usb host seems great, I can plug in my cuecat ;-) or perhaps some other smaller barcode / rfid scanner
Jun 29 11:11:33 <jgoo> http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/e/e6/Gta01b_v3_bottom.jpg/400px-Gta01b_v3_bottom.jpg
Jun 29 11:11:48 <jgoo> is that the total footprint of the device, including microphone and speakers?
Jun 29 11:12:46 <hrw> jgoo: mic and speakers are on other side of PCB
Jun 29 11:13:23 <jgoo> I guess battery etc, just looking at these pics, and seeing the 'pill shape' case of it, looks like a lot of empty space in those circular extensions
Jun 29 11:14:19 <hrw> jgoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/8/82/Gta01b_v3_top.jpg - look at this
Jun 29 11:14:31 <hrw> jgoo: black circle on right is mic
Jun 29 11:15:16 <hrw> jgoo: but where exactly speakers connects I do not remember and do not want to disassemble my neos
Jun 29 11:15:58 <hrw> jgoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 is also worth read
Jun 29 11:16:33 <jgoo> wow, hang on, the neo was a released device right?
Jun 29 11:16:37 <hrw> jgoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_case_top_open_pcb_lifted.jpg show pins for speakers
Jun 29 11:16:59 <hrw> jgoo: in March first (selected) developers got phones
Jun 29 11:17:07 <ynezz> jgoo: i think, that you can't power devices from neo over USB
Jun 29 11:17:19 <hrw> then we got current version of phone.
Jun 29 11:17:43 <jgoo> aaah. ok. I see the GSM antenna is in the top rounded loop
Jun 29 11:18:36 <mmp> hmm, still no e-mail about neo distribution channels?
Jun 29 11:18:49 <Rince> mmp: wait until July 9th?
Jun 29 11:18:53 <jgoo> hrw: thanks those high res shots are great
Jun 29 11:18:57 <mmp> Rince: not really
Jun 29 11:18:58 <Rince> where is the problem in buying online?
Jun 29 11:19:15 <thresh> russia
Jun 29 11:19:24 <mmp> Rince: Sometime later
Jun 29 11:19:24 <mmp> today or early tomorrow we're going to make another announcement asking
Jun 29 11:19:24 <mmp> for some advice.
Jun 29 11:19:56 <Stephmw> I have heard that there are problems importing into Russia (laws on one side, and corrupt customs on the other)
Jun 29 11:20:00 <mmp> Rince: the problem is that you still can't download your Neo using internet connection, it has to be shipped from somewhere:)
Jun 29 11:20:01 <Rince> well - I'd just wait until Jul 9th and ask _then_ wether openmoko has an idea
Jun 29 11:21:04 <mmp> Basically, I will wait too (as there is no other option), but I would like to know how much will I have to pay for shipment etc.
Jun 29 11:22:39 <Rince> mmp: I guess this will be settled then - FIC seems to have experience in that field. I'd just wait until the official opening
Jun 29 11:23:07 <mmp> let's hope so:)
Jun 29 12:15:50 <Linux_Galore> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RcCFrf-NW0
Jun 29 12:17:53 <Linux_Galore> Im actually running kubuntu from a usb thumb drive on a VoIP telephone that I have on test and chatting in here
Jun 29 12:20:24 <Linux_Galore> its running a Via Eden 400mhz cpu 129mb ram
Jun 29 12:20:41 <Placid> seriously?...
Jun 29 12:20:44 <Linux_Galore> yes
Jun 29 12:20:49 <Linux_Galore> 128*
Jun 29 12:21:07 <Placid> You're running Kubuntu on a VoIP telephone...
Jun 29 12:21:11 <Linux_Galore> yep
Jun 29 12:21:23 <Placid> That totally rocks.
Jun 29 12:21:24 <GaKKGaKk> Does it still do VoIP?
Jun 29 12:21:25 <aloril2> that connect 100 text terminals to Neo1973 has quite amount of publicity potential
Jun 29 12:21:30 <Placid> Yeah, good question
Jun 29 12:21:32 <Linux_Galore> its basically just a very small x86 fanless pc
Jun 29 12:21:42 <Placid> Can we see some pics?
Jun 29 12:21:46 <rxr> Linux_Galore: which company / product ?
Jun 29 12:22:02 <Placid> Are you talking to us now via the VoIP phone?
Jun 29 12:22:03 <Linux_Galore> Placid: Interquartz
Jun 29 12:22:19 <Linux_Galore> Placid: not for release till late 2008
Jun 29 12:22:29 <rxr> aha
Jun 29 12:22:34 <aloril2> something like: take image from old times with big mainframe + many text terminals connected to it
Jun 29 12:22:53 <Placid> model?
Jun 29 12:23:08 <Linux_Galore> its one of a few units on test, this one has the most over kill
Jun 29 12:23:44 <Placid> counter
Jun 29 12:23:44 <Linux_Galore> enough overkill to run ubuntu usb
Jun 29 12:23:45 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 23:36:11 (9.983±1.0 days) (1645;242)
Jun 29 12:23:57 <aloril2> then same, but replace mainframe with Neo1973 (have actual 100 text terminals in hall and people using them and stuff happens inside Neo1973)
Jun 29 12:24:44 <Linux_Galore> I doubt we will release this unit its way too expensive as a business unit
Jun 29 12:25:29 <Linux_Galore> also uses way too much power, nearly 23W
Jun 29 12:26:15 <Linux_Galore> wonder if you can cluster some GTA01's lol
Jun 29 12:26:35 <Linux_Galore> guys over at folding going wtf is a moko cluster
Jun 29 12:26:44 <Placid> aloril2: will your counter predict P1.5 release too?
Jun 29 12:28:16 <Linux_Galore> Placid: it doesnt have a model number we use drawing numbers in the early stages
Jun 29 12:28:48 <Linux_Galore> ie model==drawing version
Jun 29 12:29:10 <Linux_Galore> or schemetics version if it makes you happy
Jun 29 12:29:18 <Placid> I see
Jun 29 12:29:26 <Placid> Still cool though :)
Jun 29 12:30:18 <Linux_Galore> Placid: yeah, there is another company called Zulty that already makes Linux VoIP stuff
Jun 29 12:30:38 <Linux_Galore> stuff = telephones/router
Jun 29 12:31:11 <Placid> Yeah i'm sure there is
Jun 29 12:31:24 <Placid> Just interested in the kubuntu via usb on a voip phone
Jun 29 12:31:31 <Placid> Hilarious almost
Jun 29 12:31:36 <aloril2> Placid see counter web page
Jun 29 12:31:39 * hrw watch mokoninja movies
Jun 29 12:31:57 <Linux_Galore> Placid: no biggie its basically a compact x86 PC
Jun 29 12:32:28 <Placid> ja
Jun 29 12:32:37 <Placid> OK aloril2
Jun 29 12:33:01 <Linux_Galore> Placid: even more funky is I just got flash working and Im now watching openmoko video on it
Jun 29 12:33:27 <Placid> lol!
Jun 29 12:33:28 <rwhitby> hrw: for some reason I always thought mickey would look like harald, and harald would look like mickey.  no idea why - that's just the first thing I thought when I saw them both together for the first time.
Jun 29 12:33:40 <hrw> rwhitby: ;)
Jun 29 12:33:45 <Linux_Galore> had to manually install the plugin 
Jun 29 12:33:51 <hrw> rwhitby: I met mickeyl already
Jun 29 12:35:39 <Linux_Galore> if you come into our place it looks all tidy like FIC foyer and then you walk into the lab and go oooh my god what hit this place heh
Jun 29 12:36:01 <rwhitby> Linux_Galore: it's the same in every company I've worked for
Jun 29 12:37:18 <Linux_Galore> rwhitby: not always, the first company I worked for was all tidy and everything was put in a set place, company went broke 8 weeks after I left and the place I work for now has been running for 21 years
Jun 29 12:37:27 <rrripley> When is the Neo1973 going to be available to the public...?
Jun 29 12:37:27 <aloril> rrripley: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 12:37:55 <ruimoreira> can anyone post the url fot the counter please?
Jun 29 12:38:03 <Linux_Galore> rrripley: July 9 aprox
Jun 29 12:38:11 <rrripley> thanks
Jun 29 12:39:02 <Placid> You should see my desk
Jun 29 12:39:08 <Linux_Galore> Im on this stupid phone because my laptops hardisk fs just went south
Jun 29 12:39:17 <Placid> Paper,disks, tea...
Jun 29 12:39:27 <Placid> Not as much hardware as my home desk though
Jun 29 12:39:40 <Placid> monitors & a second box that's tidily concealed though
Jun 29 12:39:44 <Linux_Galore> Placid: theres a funny saying, a tidy desk is a sign or a empty mind
Jun 29 12:39:51 <Linux_Galore> of a*
Jun 29 12:40:04 <Placid> Linux_Galore: hehe indeed. I always thought it was "tidy desk, dirty mind" :)
Jun 29 12:40:21 <Placid> Linux_Galore: doesn't quite work though, as my desks a pig sty
Jun 29 12:40:54 <Linux_Galore> Placid: there is a funny sign on the back of the lab door, We don't believe in miracles we depend on them.
Jun 29 12:41:23 <aloril2> ruimoreira:
Jun 29 12:41:23 <aloril2> counter
Jun 29 12:41:23 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 23:18:32 (9.971±1.0 days) (1646;242)
Jun 29 12:41:45 <Linux_Galore> Placid: we dont allow food in the lab it attracts wildlife as we site right next to a national forrest
Jun 29 12:41:52 <Linux_Galore> sit*
Jun 29 12:42:39 <Linux_Galore> looks like I may have to go get a new hardisk for my lappie, pisses me off
Jun 29 12:42:56 <Linux_Galore> fsck has been going for hours
Jun 29 12:45:28 <Placid> Linux_Galore: LOL
Jun 29 12:49:55 <xkr47> maybe it's ch*ating on you
Jun 29 12:58:44 <Linux_Galore> now this has to be nuts, I now have a usb2 hub plugged into a VoIP phone and a external usb burner is now burning a copy gutsy
Jun 29 12:59:03 <Linux_Galore> of*
Jun 29 12:59:29 <Linux_Galore> got a permissions problem with cdroa but I fixed that
Jun 29 13:00:02 <SpeedEvil> It's only nuts if it doesn't work satisfactorily.
Jun 29 13:00:14 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jun 29 13:00:35 <Linux_Galore> well it initially didnt want to work but i tracked it down to an hal bug
Jun 29 13:01:03 <Linux_Galore> yay its finnished 
Jun 29 13:01:26 <Linux_Galore> god I luv Linux
Jun 29 13:02:22 <Linux_Galore> so I now just need to get a new hardisk and install gutsy and Im back in action
Jun 29 13:05:42 <Linux_Galore> anyway Im out getting late
Jun 29 13:06:34 <Linux_Galore> have a good weekend everyone
Jun 29 13:12:45 <Placid> gutsy?
Jun 29 13:14:34 <inz> Placid, I'm guessing next ubuntu
Jun 29 13:15:17 <inz> Placid, Ubuntu 7.10 aka "Gutsy Gibbons"
Jun 29 13:16:33 <Placid> Thanks
Jun 29 13:16:38 <Placid> Yeah it is, just Googled
Jun 29 13:22:46 <kiney> counter
Jun 29 13:22:46 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 22:37:09 (9.942±1.0 days) (1647;242)
Jun 29 13:22:53 <torpor> hiya
Jun 29 13:23:10 <torpor> folks - is it possible that there is a way to buy an openmoko right now in europe (austria) and if so, how?
Jun 29 13:23:11 <aloril> torpor: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 13:23:28 <torpor> anyone got one to sell?
Jun 29 13:24:45 <rwhitby> torpor: got one in Australia, but not Austria.
Jun 29 13:24:48 <hrw> openmoko or neo?
Jun 29 13:25:03 <rwhitby> hrw: sell him an svn checkout?
Jun 29 13:25:06 <torpor> rwhitby: thats no use, though i am an australian living in austria.  ;)
Jun 29 13:25:39 <torpor> i guess i'll wait until july 9th and buy the Neo Advanced package then .. but i was hoping to replace my current cell phone this week ..
Jun 29 13:26:22 <hrw> torpor: it is not yet ready to replace cellphone
Jun 29 13:26:29 <torpor> oh?
Jun 29 13:26:38 <torpor> i thought it was a working cell phone that needed apps built for it .. 
Jun 29 13:26:42 <torpor> but i've got some reading to do, i see ..
Jun 29 13:26:58 <hrw> torpor: it powers up, it allow to call/receive call. 
Jun 29 13:27:12 <torpor> thats what i need right now
Jun 29 13:27:16 <hrw> it lack sms/mms handling, can crash in any time etc
Jun 29 13:27:25 <torpor> just a working cell phone.  and i want to hack apps for it.
Jun 29 13:27:42 <Placid> Read the FAQ & Wiki, torpor
Jun 29 13:27:47 <Placid> It'll save you typing these questions :)
Jun 29 13:27:59 <torpor> i'll just go do that then.
Jun 29 13:28:13 <torpor> sorry for bothering you folks, i'll be back when ican actually write some code for the thing ..
Jun 29 13:34:39 <jgoo> I haven't even read what SIP clients might run on this phone... any yet?
Jun 29 13:35:13 <jgoo> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=SIP&go=Go :/
Jun 29 13:36:44 <jgoo> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-March/004188.html > I see
Jun 29 13:37:05 <Dvalin> '/wigoto 26
Jun 29 13:39:15 <jgoo> asterisk comtrol panel built into this, see all extensions, visual voicemail, looks like it could be a great sip client platform (since you can call GSM, or wifi to the local PBX)
Jun 29 13:39:32 <jgoo> I am looking on the site - where are the specs for this July 9th device?
Jun 29 13:39:36 <jgoo> WiFi?
Jun 29 13:39:36 <aloril> GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jun 29 13:39:51 <jgoo> Yes I saw the Atheros, but it was so recent I wasn't sure
Jun 29 13:40:40 <hads> That's an automated response in case you didn't know.
Jun 29 13:40:52 <jgoo> so  Phase 1+/1.5 (GTA02) is the July 9th availability?
Jun 29 13:41:02 <SpeedEvil> No
Jun 29 13:41:05 <jgoo> aaah I see
Jun 29 13:41:07 <jgoo> my stupidity
Jun 29 13:41:08 <SpeedEvil> GAT02 is October
Jun 29 13:41:15 <hads> Nope, Phase 1 is soon.
Jun 29 13:41:17 <SuN> What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi... hmm... WhyNoWiFi would have sufficed :)
Jun 29 13:41:20 <SpeedEvil> The July 9 one is the current P1 ones
Jun 29 13:41:36 <jgoo> so no 3d accellerometer?
Jun 29 13:41:44 <SpeedEvil> Not in the stock one, no.
Jun 29 13:41:55 <jgoo> ok\
Jun 29 13:41:55 <SpeedEvil> Unless you send your P1 to me for a $40 upgrade.
Jun 29 13:42:08 <SpeedEvil> Which may include other stuff, and may not be that price, and may not be available.
Jun 29 13:42:26 <hads> Ahmhm
Jun 29 13:42:28 <ph|ber> hey..
Jun 29 13:42:32 <ph|ber> when is the launch ??
Jun 29 13:42:46 <jgoo> So the idea is, get the hardware together, make sure it 'gels' and then keep improving and flashing the device
Jun 29 13:42:50 <iniduoh> Is there a development program that I can try out?
Jun 29 13:43:04 <SpeedEvil> iniduoh: what do you mean?
Jun 29 13:43:08 <hads> ph|ber: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce
Jun 29 13:43:18 <SpeedEvil> ph: July 9 it goes on sale
Jun 29 13:43:25 <SpeedEvil> ph: development continues.
Jun 29 13:43:36 <Stephmw> The Turtle Moves!
Jun 29 13:43:44 <ph|ber> wait.. july 9th is the release. or the release of the development one.
Jun 29 13:43:51 <SpeedEvil> Development.
Jun 29 13:43:53 <hads> ph|ber: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce
Jun 29 13:43:56 <SpeedEvil> No wifi, no accel, ...
Jun 29 13:44:06 <SpeedEvil> But $300, not $450
Jun 29 13:44:12 <ph|ber> bleh..
Jun 29 13:44:24 <iniduoh> Is there a development environment for the phone. One that simulates the phone.
Jun 29 13:44:29 <mmp> I wonder what will be specs for GTA03 :)
Jun 29 13:44:32 <hads> iniduoh: Yes
Jun 29 13:44:46 <iniduoh> I'm interested
Jun 29 13:45:29 <ph|ber> geez. i know when i buy an iphone today, i will probally return it.
Jun 29 13:48:04 <jgoo> ph|ber: put it on ebay, wait 3 hours, if it don't sell for 300% (someone might be stupid) return it
Jun 29 13:48:16 <xkr47> heh
Jun 29 13:48:16 <jgoo> if they sell out (I think they will) there may be ebay demand
Jun 29 13:48:36 <ph|ber> personally .. i think they will sell out.
Jun 29 13:48:43 <ph|ber> to mac people.
Jun 29 13:48:44 <ph|ber> heh
Jun 29 13:48:49 <ph|ber> and people who want the latest.
Jun 29 13:48:54 <ph|ber> but look at the facts.
Jun 29 13:48:59 <ph|ber> no 3g, no tethered modem.
Jun 29 13:49:00 <jgoo> OMG <caps> then why are you here and not waiting in line with Packer? </caps>
Jun 29 13:49:00 <jgoo> :-)
Jun 29 13:49:40 <ph|ber> i would like a nokia e90
Jun 29 13:49:47 <jgoo> ph|ber: EDGE is classified as 3G, WiFi is untethered access... (I think wifi will make real 3G redundant for most people within the next 12-24 months
Jun 29 13:50:19 <ph|ber> no i mean, connecting my laptop through bluetooth and using the internet through the phone.
Jun 29 13:50:48 <ph|ber> no gps,
Jun 29 13:50:56 <ph|ber> and the list goes on.. in what i want in a phone.
Jun 29 13:51:18 <jgoo> so when you haev to use EDGE. Why is gps a factor? seperate gps devices are $50 for bluetooth, and you don't have that extra component inside
Jun 29 13:51:34 <ph|ber> it is just another thing to have on me.
Jun 29 13:51:40 <ph|ber> when it should be included in the phone.
Jun 29 13:51:48 <jgoo> (okokok GTA01 will have gps...)
Jun 29 13:51:52 <ph|ber> i think im going to get a n95..
Jun 29 13:52:02 <ph|ber> i know.
Jun 29 13:52:22 <jgoo> should is arguable - it would be an amazing GPS device with google maps built in. worldwide gps map coverage.
Jun 29 13:52:27 <ph|ber> but even the n95 will only take the 2gig medias.
Jun 29 13:52:33 <jgoo> there is no way of nowing if it will even work with gps for now.. I hope so
Jun 29 13:52:41 <hrw> device which use only 2G cards is crap
Jun 29 13:52:51 <hrw> 8GB cards for everyone :D
Jun 29 13:53:07 * ph|ber sighs
Jun 29 13:53:11 <jgoo> on the apple site it mentions that the web2.0 apps written online for the iphone will be ableto make use of the address book, make calls, and use multitouch. I don't know what they are smoking, but... how?
Jun 29 13:53:23 <ph|ber> yea.
Jun 29 13:53:33 <ph|ber> and! no 3rd party apps for the iphone
Jun 29 13:53:36 <jgoo> unless they mean the multitouch zoom will work, and a callto:// protocol will work...
Jun 29 13:53:36 <ph|ber> which means, no ssh client.
Jun 29 13:53:44 <jgoo> ph|ber : wrong (kinda)
Jun 29 13:53:56 <jgoo> unless you have an online ssh client... which... is... online..
Jun 29 13:53:56 <ph|ber> ?
Jun 29 13:54:16 <jgoo> you can write apps on sites for it. I agree it would be nice to 'install' stuff to it
Jun 29 13:54:42 <ph|ber> i really dont want to load a website just to use an app
Jun 29 13:54:55 <jgoo> google maps?
Jun 29 13:55:04 <jgoo> admittedly they took that and went somewhat native with it
Jun 29 13:55:27 <Stephmw> Oooo, kinky
Jun 29 13:55:44 <Stephmw> jgoo: we do that a lot at work too... going native that is :)
Jun 29 13:56:22 <xkr47> wireless terabyte storage in your backpack and a few megs on the phone :)
Jun 29 13:56:46 <Stephmw> and a trailer for the batteries? :)
Jun 29 13:57:02 <xkr47> a small suitcase nuclear plant
Jun 29 13:58:06 <iniduoh> Can openmoko run regular apps?
Jun 29 13:58:09 <iniduoh> Such as emacs?
Jun 29 13:58:10 <aloril2> iniduoh: see MokoMakefile linked from FAQ
Jun 29 13:58:35 <aloril2> yes
Jun 29 13:59:41 <jgoo> Stephmw: are you an undercover trying to infiltrate an underground street racing gang involved with hijacking DVD players from trucks?
Jun 29 14:00:04 <Stephmw> jgoo: hahaha
Jun 29 14:00:07 <jgoo> :-)
Jun 29 14:00:26 <ph|ber> thinking about it.. i dont think there will be a boom on ebay.
Jun 29 14:00:31 <Stephmw> jgoo: I'm a J2ME core api developer having to dip into native far too frequently for his own liking
Jun 29 14:00:32 <ph|ber> bc apple.com is selling them too..
Jun 29 14:01:02 <jgoo> emacs... on openmoko...my little finger just cried for joy (or winced in pain).
Jun 29 14:01:12 <jgoo> aaaah I see
Jun 29 14:01:27 <jgoo> Stephmw: you are a develop for j2me on dev.java.net?
Jun 29 14:01:36 <Stephmw> jgoo: no, I work at a manufacturer
Jun 29 14:01:41 <Stephmw> jgoo: Sun licensees
Jun 29 14:01:41 <jgoo> oh. which one?
Jun 29 14:01:56 <Stephmw> (mumble)(mumble)[NDA]
Jun 29 14:02:09 <Stephmw> I'll let you know after I've quit... leaving on 10th August :)
Jun 29 14:02:48 <unknown_lamer> jgoo: what's wrong with emacs on openmoko? It was my intended use for the device :-)
Jun 29 14:03:18 <Stephmw> unknown_lamer: hahaha
Jun 29 14:03:21 <unknown_lamer> jgoo: emacsserver + bt net pipe to my workstation + small program to forward elisp to emacs = remote media library control
Jun 29 14:04:01 <jgoo> unknown_lamer: nothing, far from it, being able to ctrl+c+s+f+x+v+c+x+q+esc+q+g+m+x without growing two new fingers will be wonderful!
Jun 29 14:04:15 <Stephmw> jgoo: and no, you can't guess from my ip ;)
Jun 29 14:04:19 <jgoo> :-)
Jun 29 14:04:19 <unknown_lamer> jgoo: my plan is to experiment with non-keyboard interfaces to emacs
Jun 29 14:04:21 <jgoo> busted
Jun 29 14:04:24 <unknown_lamer> at least for things like planner and w3m
Jun 29 14:04:28 <Stephmw> jgoo: work -> ssh -> SCREEN -> irssi ;)
Jun 29 14:05:16 <Stephmw> jgoo: just me being paranoid really... publicly logged channels and all that ;)
Jun 29 14:05:39 <jgoo> oh yeah.
Jun 29 14:05:49 <not_jgoo_honest> I have a plan
Jun 29 14:06:22 <Stephmw> does it involve a rubber chicken, two measures of vodka and a looooong elastic?
Jun 29 14:06:38 <jgoo> nickserv identify hhhaiiwagomp
Jun 29 14:06:55 <Stephmw> time to change that password...
Jun 29 14:07:13 <jgoo> Ha Ha Ha As If I Would Accidentally Give Out My Password
Jun 29 14:07:19 <jgoo> Sometimes I just like to bait
Jun 29 14:07:48 <Stephmw> I've seen it happen
Jun 29 14:08:04 <jgoo> I sometimes paste code to dev chanels, and rather than change passwords to 'LOLZ' I change them to something more realistic, and wait to see the failed logins appear :-)
Jun 29 14:08:39 <jgoo> actually not a bad password... add a few letter/number changes
Jun 29 14:12:04 <ph|ber> i think im going to buy a n95
Jun 29 14:12:23 <jgoo> mmm. apt-get install openstreetmap-moko.... drive drive, walk...
Jun 29 14:12:36 <jgoo> I wonder if iphones unlimited data plans are going to be commonplace now?
Jun 29 14:12:53 <aloril> ph|ber: I saw some review of 4GB microSD which mentioned that only N95 takes those
Jun 29 14:13:05 <andi> lol
Jun 29 14:13:27 <ph|ber> hrm.. i believe it only takes up to the 2gig..
Jun 29 14:13:29 <ph|ber> i thought.
Jun 29 14:13:34 <ph|ber> from nokias website.
Jun 29 14:13:35 <aloril> (and possibly Neo1973, but microSD and Neo1973 have not yet met)
Jun 29 14:13:53 <aloril> s/microSD/4GB microSD/
Jun 29 14:13:53 <apt> aloril meant: (and possibly Neo1973, but 4GB microSD and Neo1973 have not yet met)
Jun 29 14:13:54 <Stephmw> jgoo: you forgot the quotes.... AT&T's 'unlimited' dataplan
Jun 29 14:13:58 <jgoo> apt-get install youtube-moko pr0n-tube-moko lol-tube-moko - hey gotta get value for money from the data plan.
Jun 29 14:14:51 <jgoo> aaah. yeah. I can imagine. is there any discussion on if it will be limited somehow? I can imagine some people using 24/7 data streaming access, why not... speaking of which
Jun 29 14:15:28 <jgoo> I wonder if the reason for no 3rd party apps is just that... 3rd party apps == much data streaming, such as 24/7 life streaming from iphone (although sprint sell that plan I believe I read it on justin.tv)
Jun 29 14:15:42 <Stephmw> fair usage policies and all that rubbish
Jun 29 14:15:51 <Stephmw> ... not that you can really pull that much over EDGE
Jun 29 14:16:31 <jgoo> exactly. and I can imagine 24/7 for some people who really want it. I don't know, putting an iphone connected to youtube / trailers in your taxi
Jun 29 14:17:16 <jgoo> its just a screen with a data plan, playing video... that is quite unique today though, the sheer comoditisation of it
Jun 29 14:18:16 <ph|ber> aloril: straight from the tech specs on the n95:
Jun 29 14:18:17 <ph|ber> Memory card slot supporting up to 2 GB microSD memory cards
Jun 29 14:20:12 <aloril> ph|ber: this claims otherwise: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/06/12/review_sandisk_4gb_microsdhc/
Jun 29 14:21:00 <ph|ber> ]http://www.nseries.com/nseries/v3/media/sections/products/tech_specs/en-R1/tech_specs_n95_en_R1.html
Jun 29 14:21:26 <ravan_> is anyone else not able to do --->  mtn --db=OE.mtn pull monotone.openembedded.org org.openembedded.dev 
Jun 29 14:21:50 <jgoo> are all gps antennas created equal, or are some created more equal than others?
Jun 29 14:22:01 <zecke> ravan_: use a mirror?
Jun 29 14:22:17 <aloril> ph|ber: it might be just case that 4GB was not available at the time nokia spec page was written
Jun 29 14:22:23 <zecke> our beloved OE server is heavily overloaded by the moko fanboys
Jun 29 14:22:31 <ph|ber> aloril: true
Jun 29 14:22:43 <aloril> ph|ber: nobody with Neo1973 has managed to get hold of 4GB card, so we don't know ;-)
Jun 29 14:23:18 <aloril> ph|ber: in theory Neo1973 should support 4GB
Jun 29 14:23:26 <jgoo> so, they both use the same microsd chipset?
Jun 29 14:23:52 <aloril> well, I might be wrong, but I think its more like software change
Jun 29 14:23:58 <jgoo> in this channel, are there mostly developers, or the people who actually string the hardware specs together for this device?
Jun 29 14:24:00 <jgoo> I see
Jun 29 14:24:03 <ph|ber> aloril: the neo is linux.. it supports everything
Jun 29 14:24:04 <ph|ber> !
Jun 29 14:24:21 <ewon> jgoo: mostly software side of it, AFAIK - the actual hw is controlled by FIC
Jun 29 14:24:24 <ewon> *hw design
Jun 29 14:24:27 <jgoo> oh. apt-get install mame-moko
Jun 29 14:24:31 <ph|ber> aloril: puzzling..
Jun 29 14:24:33 <ph|ber> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/05/01/review_nokia_n95/page5.html
Jun 29 14:24:43 <ph|ber> here says 2 gig too.. the review of the n95 on the same website..
Jun 29 14:24:45 * ph|ber shrugs
Jun 29 14:24:50 <aloril> there are people from OpenMoko company (part of FIC)
Jun 29 14:24:59 <hrw> ph|ber: n95 takes sd or microsd?
Jun 29 14:25:35 <aloril> ph|ber: yeah, I guess at that time they didn't have 4GB and nobody else either ;-)
Jun 29 14:25:47 <ph|ber> cool 
Jun 29 14:25:49 <SpeedEvil> 4G is basically unavailable still.
Jun 29 14:25:50 <ph|ber> hrw: mirco
Jun 29 14:25:54 <SpeedEvil> (in microSD)
Jun 29 14:26:23 <hrw> ph|ber: microSD 4GB will be SHDC only probably so thats why it is limited to 2G
Jun 29 14:26:28 <thomasg_> 4gb is unavaiable since the announcement (which was early 2007)
Jun 29 14:26:34 <ph|ber> and the review said a small battery charge time.. nokia says upto 225 hours
Jun 29 14:26:37 <SpeedEvil> SDHC is >1G
Jun 29 14:26:58 <thomasg_> erm, no, sdhc is over 2gb. 2gb microSDs are available
Jun 29 14:27:01 <SpeedEvil> Pre-SDHC is <=2G
Jun 29 14:27:08 <thomasg_> sure?
Jun 29 14:27:13 <ph|ber> only question is, can you use the n95 as a tethered modem.
Jun 29 14:27:19 <SpeedEvil> I'm pretty sure 1G SDHCs are out there.
Jun 29 14:27:34 <SpeedEvil> I haven't actually researched it much though.
Jun 29 14:28:07 <SpeedEvil> And I did say >1G :)
Jun 29 14:28:10 <SpeedEvil> I dunno though.
Jun 29 14:28:17 <SpeedEvil> The largest one I have on hand is 512M
Jun 29 14:28:22 <thomasg_> would  that make sense? sdhc = sd high capacity. 1 gb is not high capacity :)
Jun 29 14:28:24 <SpeedEvil> I've been putting off purchasing.
Jun 29 14:28:35 <SpeedEvil> Well - SDHC doesn't make much sense.
Jun 29 14:28:44 <aloril> pretty recent review: SanDisk 4GB Micro SDHC memory card  12th June 2007 10:02 GMT
Jun 29 14:28:47 <SpeedEvil> The capacity limit of SDHC is 32G IIRC
Jun 29 14:28:52 <thomasg_> and all 2 gb microSDs that are available (and this are many) are normal SD
Jun 29 14:29:10 <SpeedEvil> It's 32, or 64.
Jun 29 14:29:13 <SpeedEvil> Either way insane.
Jun 29 14:29:26 <thomasg_> its 32
Jun 29 14:29:47 <thomasg_> and wikipedia says SDHC = all SD starting at 4 GB and ending at 32 GB
Jun 29 14:29:56 <SpeedEvil> It can start earlier
Jun 29 14:30:02 <Stephmw> Oooh, interesting... http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2288025838.html
Jun 29 14:30:08 <SpeedEvil> 4G is the 'must be SDHC' range
Jun 29 14:30:14 <ravan_> zecke: mtn: misuse: database /home/chetan/openmoko/OE.mtn is laid out according to an old schema
Jun 29 14:30:16 <SpeedEvil> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/construction_worker_still_hasnt?utm_source=onion_rss_daily
Jun 29 14:30:18 <SpeedEvil> oops
Jun 29 14:30:51 <zecke> ravan_: well, monotone.ca and happy reading
Jun 29 14:32:32 <thomasg_> SpeedEvil, ok, I looked and it's all about standards. there might be 8 gb normal SD cards, but that woulndt be ok according to the SD-standard
Jun 29 14:32:59 <Sup3rkiddo> ravan_: mtn db migrate --db=OE.mtn 
Jun 29 14:34:40 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Jun 29 14:35:01 <SpeedEvil> And hence they may not work on some stuff.
Jun 29 14:36:13 <hrw> 4G can be normal SD too
Jun 29 14:40:59 <ravan_> Sup3rkiddo: thanks
Jun 29 14:41:35 <Sup3rkiddo> np
Jun 29 14:42:31 <ravan_> Sup3rkiddo: do you do any openmoko development?
Jun 29 14:59:54 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Minimo]] [[Minimo/it]]
Jun 29 15:00:40 <aloril> this claims that openmoko was at 52. place in most searched google words: http://www.ezineblog.org/?p=87
Jun 29 15:01:24 <aloril> (not that surprising considering digg links to fake redirection page now, seems it was too much traffic for that blog)
Jun 29 15:09:50 <daftman> hi
Jun 29 15:09:57 <daftman> can anyone tell me where I can get the virtual machine and sdk for linux debian?
Jun 29 15:09:57 <aloril> daftman: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 15:10:53 <ravan_> anyone here getting in queue for an iphone?
Jun 29 15:11:09 <daftman> I am
Jun 29 15:11:15 <daftman> i want one
Jun 29 15:11:37 <daftman> but I need some info on how to buy it
Jun 29 15:12:10 <ravan_> ok.. just wanted to know how long the queues build up to
Jun 29 15:17:25 <aloril> hmm.. HMD could be connected to USB2 in some future OpenMoko supporting hardware ( like but different interface, etc.. http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ )
Jun 29 15:18:26 * aloril wonders how long before USB2 is supported
Jun 29 15:19:08 <summatusmentis> aloril: HMD?
Jun 29 15:19:31 <alphaone> yay, now we're talking :-)
Jun 29 15:19:40 <alphaone> summatusmentis: Head mounted display
Jun 29 15:19:41 <aloril> summatusmentis: head mounted display
Jun 29 15:19:44 <aloril> hehe
Jun 29 15:19:50 <summatusmentis> lol, that would be cool
Jun 29 15:19:57 <aloril> (see above link)
Jun 29 15:20:31 <aloril> it doesn't need to be VGA, monochrome QVGA would be useful too (if you want more, then take device out of pocked and stare at its screen like you do now)
Jun 29 15:22:52 <summatusmentis> see... that's the sort of thing I could see myself wearing... alot of these things are just stupid looking
Jun 29 15:22:53 <aloril> + http://www.handykey.com/site/twiddler2.html and you can keep device most of time in pocket
Jun 29 15:24:15 <SpeedEvil> There have been mostly covert displays built into glasses.
Jun 29 15:24:40 <SpeedEvil> Of course - there is the fundamental - and often misunderstood limitation that light does not work like it does in star trek.
Jun 29 15:24:49 <aloril> hmm.. monochrome QVGA might work on USB1.1 too ..
Jun 29 15:24:58 <don-o> SpeedEvil: sunglass-looking HMD would rule.
Jun 29 15:25:05 <SpeedEvil> So you need some sort of mirror/lens in the field of view where you want the 'monitor' to appear.
Jun 29 15:25:39 <SpeedEvil> It would be so nice if holograms did what they do in star trek.
Jun 29 15:26:52 <aloril> SpeedEvil: yeah, I just wonder why nobody is mass producing stuff like that guy has done
Jun 29 15:28:06 * aloril sees potential in not too distant future for FIC/OpenMoko to do something 'novel' (novel compared to other mobile phone companies)
Jun 29 15:30:34 <SpeedEvil> If light worked like on star-trek, my first wish would be a nice big 8'*4' display.
Jun 29 15:30:40 <SpeedEvil> As a window.
Jun 29 15:32:40 <summatusmentis> so these HMDs... are they still sunglasses? that is, can you still see through them?
Jun 29 15:32:54 <summatusmentis> or is that what you're saying SpeedEvil 
Jun 29 15:33:19 <SpeedEvil> It depends.
Jun 29 15:33:36 <summatusmentis> on?
Jun 29 15:33:48 <SpeedEvil> Basically you need some sort of thing in front of your eye that reflects/emits light into the eye at the appropriate place.
Jun 29 15:34:06 <SpeedEvil> The thing has to entirely cover the visible display.
Jun 29 15:34:17 <SpeedEvil> (with minor caveats on pupil diameter)
Jun 29 15:34:48 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: glass covered with microprism array and beans coming from the glass stem?
Jun 29 15:34:53 <Stephmw> *beams
Jun 29 15:35:05 <SpeedEvil> Yes, you can do that sort of stuff.
Jun 29 15:35:06 <Stephmw> ... not exactly see-through though
Jun 29 15:35:07 <summatusmentis> ok, but this 'thing' makes the glasses themselves no longer transparent enough?
Jun 29 15:35:12 <SpeedEvil> Generally, with existing devices.
Jun 29 15:35:22 <summatusmentis> I see
Jun 29 15:35:33 <SpeedEvil> You have a 'blob' of monitor somewhere in your visual field, that's not transparent.
Jun 29 15:35:40 <summatusmentis> so you're either looking at the display, or you're walking down the street, not both
Jun 29 15:35:59 <SpeedEvil> If however you use a mirror as the optical element that relays into your eyes, you can in principle have a 'transparent' display
Jun 29 15:36:42 <SpeedEvil> But making it large - so that it covers the whole visual field even when you scroll your eyes up and down tends to make it very very bulky for basic optical reasons.
Jun 29 15:36:43 <aloril> not a new thing ;-)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann
Jun 29 15:36:43 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: I'm thinking the only way to properly display something like that without having something in the eye's field of view is some type of direct excitation of the retina
Jun 29 15:36:55 <summatusmentis> how so? I suppose you could mount a small camera, and have whatever the camera 'sees' as the background to the display?
Jun 29 15:37:01 <SpeedEvil> Direct excitation pretty much means that you have something in the eye.
Jun 29 15:37:18 * summatusmentis draws the line there
Jun 29 15:37:18 <SpeedEvil> yes - you can do that too - completely virtual.
Jun 29 15:37:19 <Stephmw> sure - I was thinking of a microwave active chemical...
Jun 29 15:37:26 <Stephmw> and excite it externally
Jun 29 15:37:34 <SpeedEvil> Microwave can't work.
Jun 29 15:37:38 <Stephmw> but yeah.... bodymods are out of the question
Jun 29 15:37:40 <SpeedEvil> It's not high enough resolution.
Jun 29 15:37:43 <aloril> summatusmentis: I think its like some monitor hovering  (and it does hide what is behind)
Jun 29 15:38:04 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: running out of things that can penetrate the skull though
Jun 29 15:38:10 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: practical ones that is
Jun 29 15:38:12 <SpeedEvil> Imagine basically strapping a neo display to your head with a coathanger, with a lens to focus it.
Jun 29 15:38:46 <SpeedEvil> Basically in reality, there are very limited options.
Jun 29 15:39:04 <aloril> anyway, unobtrusive sun glass looking HMD was possible about 10 years ago ... maybe its now possible to mass produce same thing that was possible to make 10 years ago ..
Jun 29 15:39:20 <SpeedEvil> Either - direct brain interface. Interface to the optic nerve. Interface to the retina. All of these are in the future, with the possible risk of blindness/insanity for the early adopters.
Jun 29 15:39:20 <aloril> maybe those that try to produce are making them:
Jun 29 15:39:23 <alphaone> I read about a laser once that painted the display onto your retina
Jun 29 15:39:31 <ewon> sounds healthy
Jun 29 15:39:38 <aloril> 1) too cyborg looking (not sun glass looking like it should)
Jun 29 15:39:56 <SpeedEvil> alphaone: there has been lots of crap spouted unfortunately. Lasers are just ordinary light.
Jun 29 15:39:56 <aloril> 2) are obsessed with resolution, etc.. while QVGA monochrome would already be useful
Jun 29 15:40:04 <gamin> wow, the french mobile operators are real bastards. data is pretty much only available with a separate sim card, unless paying impertinent prices.
Jun 29 15:40:17 <SpeedEvil> You cannot scan directly onto the retina, because the lens is in the way.
Jun 29 15:40:50 <SpeedEvil> This means that you need the display final optic to be the same visual size as the virtual display as you see it.
Jun 29 15:40:51 <gamin> like 0,50EUR for every GPRS data call  in tranches of 20 minutes...
Jun 29 15:41:02 * Stephmw heads home
Jun 29 15:41:44 <gamin> that is very well an attack on phones like the neo
Jun 29 15:41:53 <aloril> gamin: 0.5EUR every 20 minutes?
Jun 29 15:42:09 <gamin> I wonder how long it takes until the eu commission is going to stop that
Jun 29 15:42:13 <SpeedEvil> If you try a pin-sized object 1cm from the eye that 'scans' an image onto the pupil, then all you end up with is a blurry image as if you hold a slide 1cm from the eye.
Jun 29 15:42:13 <gamin> aloril: yes
Jun 29 15:42:15 * aloril has sometimes GPRS on > 24h continuously ;-)
Jun 29 15:42:30 <aloril> about 5EUR / month ;-)
Jun 29 15:42:40 <gamin> aloril: they just stopped that on the 14th of june...
Jun 29 15:43:10 <aloril> oh
Jun 29 15:44:37 <alphaone> SpeedEvil: Well, the article sounded rather convincing at that time...
Jun 29 15:44:38 <gamin> internet-wise france is great: I pay 30EUR/month for 20Mbit and 100 tv channels and free calling into 49 countries and video on demand...
Jun 29 15:44:55 <gamin> but mobile is the most expensive crap of europe
Jun 29 15:45:04 <Sup3rkiddo> gamin, show off!!
Jun 29 15:45:26 <SpeedEvil> alphaone: There are physical devices out there. But I was interested in the field when this sort of hype was coming out, and asked over in sci.optics saying 'is this bullshit'.
Jun 29 15:45:40 <SpeedEvil> And the consensus was basically yes.
Jun 29 15:45:56 <gamin> Sup3rkiddo: no, everybody here and his grandma does have that. It just shows what the industry is capable of
Jun 29 15:46:03 <SpeedEvil> You don't need a working product - or a possibly working product - just enough to convince a venture capitalist.
Jun 29 15:46:18 <Sup3rkiddo> :(
Jun 29 15:46:20 <aloril> SpeedEvil: what about Sun Glass HMD like in those 2 links a gave? they seem to use it, one even all the time
Jun 29 15:46:52 <gamin> I start to wonder if italian phones/sim-cards will be cheaper than french ones...
Jun 29 15:46:54 * Sup3rkiddo curses Indian Politicians
Jun 29 15:47:33 <SpeedEvil> hang on - missed the links
Jun 29 15:47:37 <SpeedEvil> a gave?
Jun 29 15:47:48 <alphaone> Hmm, well I fear I'll have to wait some more before HMD become serious (and affordable) products.
Jun 29 15:49:02 <gamin> in italy you can get 9GB for 25EUR...
Jun 29 15:49:13 <aloril> SpeedEvil: http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann
Jun 29 15:49:23 <SpeedEvil> Oh right. 
Jun 29 15:49:45 <SpeedEvil> Yes, you can get small virtual monitors into a covert package.
Jun 29 15:50:20 <aloril> Steve Mann seems to have used since late 1990 sun glass looking HMD
Jun 29 15:51:01 <SpeedEvil> There are lots of compromises meaning it may not be a viable commercial product.
Jun 29 15:51:05 <aloril> SpeedEvil: see any reason why not mass produce something like that? (dunno what resolution is, maybe QVGA monochrome)
Jun 29 15:51:12 <SpeedEvil> No, I don't.
Jun 29 15:51:19 <SpeedEvil> Other than the possibly small market.
Jun 29 15:51:58 <SpeedEvil> What it really needs is a low power CPU/Bluetooth, and do X or something over the link.
Jun 29 15:52:04 <SpeedEvil> To lose the wire.
Jun 29 15:53:00 <SpeedEvil> Add a couple of cameras - even tiny ones to track gaze direction, and it could be very handy.
Jun 29 15:53:09 <SpeedEvil> IMO - the wire makes it non mass market.
Jun 29 15:54:47 <aloril> so its either few made by hand or millions (or at least 10000nds), between those things don't work?
Jun 29 15:56:13 * aloril things even text only would be useful
Jun 29 15:57:56 <aloril> s/things/thinks/
Jun 29 15:57:56 <apt> aloril meant: so its either few made by hand or millions (or at least 10000nds), between those thinks don't work?
Jun 29 15:58:10 <SpeedEvil> To an extent.
Jun 29 15:58:18 <SpeedEvil> There is an awkward spot.
Jun 29 15:58:37 <SpeedEvil> If you can make a million of something, the cost may drop to a quarter of the cost at 100.
Jun 29 15:59:06 <SpeedEvil> quarter/half/third, depending on the product of course.
Jun 29 15:59:28 <aloril> yeah, thus $400-$600 in small production maybe, but $100-$150 in mass production, quite a difference
Jun 29 15:59:51 <SpeedEvil> In mass production, 200-250 would get you a pretty awesome device.
Jun 29 16:00:09 <SpeedEvil> Comparatively that is.
Jun 29 16:00:25 <thomasg_> imho $350 for gta02 would be a really good price
Jun 29 16:00:39 <aloril> hmm.. not that expensive, but these are not sun glass looking like ;-) http://www.i-vue.net/i-vue.html
Jun 29 16:00:43 <SpeedEvil> Wireless display with eye-mouse, ...
Jun 29 16:01:23 <SpeedEvil> Yes, ideally I'd like devices that would not make others point and laugh :)
Jun 29 16:02:18 * aloril has never seen sun glass looking HMD being *sold*
Jun 29 16:02:28 * zecke is heading to the store and buys mate
Jun 29 16:02:33 <aloril> well.. maybe one unit
Jun 29 16:03:43 <SpeedEvil> Doing the 'million' thing also means that you can custom design stuff.
Jun 29 16:03:49 <SpeedEvil> Which is nice.
Jun 29 16:07:53 <aloril> yeah, anyway I would say again 2 keywords: cheap and covert (drop requirement for high resolution, etc..)	
Jun 29 16:08:09 <SpeedEvil> I'd like QVGA or better
Jun 29 16:08:17 <aloril> current systems are expensive and quite visible
Jun 29 16:08:18 <SpeedEvil> It would _need_ wide variation of brightness.
Jun 29 16:08:43 <SpeedEvil> I want it to work in daylight and moonlight.
Jun 29 16:08:44 <aloril> well.. it seems goal is SVGA and $600 ... and quite visbile ;-)
Jun 29 16:09:09 <SpeedEvil> What goal?
Jun 29 16:09:26 <aloril> those that produce HMD's currently
Jun 29 16:09:45 <aloril> ie.. for professional work, like at storehouses, etc..
Jun 29 16:09:55 <juri_> i was recently at SID2007. emagine has it right.
Jun 29 16:10:14 <juri_> i've got a development kit already ordered.
Jun 29 16:10:32 <juri_> its just too bad i've got to order a quantity of a thousand to do buisness with them. :)
Jun 29 16:11:02 * juri_ is looking at a wearable HMD addon for the openmoko. don't worry. ;)
Jun 29 16:11:46 <SpeedEvil> I wish e-ink weren't bastards to deal with.
Jun 29 16:12:02 <SpeedEvil> They are utterly un-interested in small quantities (thousands).
Jun 29 16:12:37 <SpeedEvil> I was wondering about a simple printer for e-ink.
Jun 29 16:13:11 <SpeedEvil> Basically a simple roll of e-ink, with a printer 'wand' that slips over the paper, and writes it.
Jun 29 16:14:05 <aloril> juri_: cool!
Jun 29 16:14:31 <SpeedEvil> juri_: details?
Jun 29 16:14:39 <SpeedEvil> Or brief sentance.
Jun 29 16:15:38 <aloril> juri_: what their website shows is quite big, but I guess you are talking about something different unobtrusive 
Jun 29 16:16:57 <aloril> hmm.. I think I would be willing to pay $600 for QVGA monochrome or better that looked just ordinary sun glasses and could be used with some future (or even current) OpenMoko device
Jun 29 16:17:38 <aloril> (but to be viable for mass market I think price should be <= $200 ?)
Jun 29 16:18:07 <SpeedEvil> Something like http://www.emagin.com/products/OLEDMD/OLED-XL.php for example I think is what he's meaning I think.
Jun 29 16:18:13 <SpeedEvil>  /she
Jun 29 16:18:32 <SpeedEvil> Mechanical Envelope: 19.78 x 15.2  x 5 mm
Jun 29 16:18:34 <juri_> speed: yepyep. they had a smaller/lighter prototype to work with at SID.
Jun 29 16:19:01 <juri_> and its not viable for mass market. yet. plus, my interface ideas have to wait for the next openmoko anyways.
Jun 29 16:19:09 <SpeedEvil> That's not really covert sized.
Jun 29 16:19:14 <SpeedEvil> Was there a smaller one?
Jun 29 16:19:21 <SpeedEvil> You really want 5mm or so diagonal
Jun 29 16:19:37 <juri_> i also got to play with micro-projectors in a pair of sunglasses. what you're really looking for. ;)
Jun 29 16:19:56 <aloril> cool!!
Jun 29 16:20:01 <juri_> unfortunately, they were going for arround $10K a pair. ;P
Jun 29 16:20:07 <SpeedEvil> Micro projectors?
Jun 29 16:20:08 <aloril> ouch
Jun 29 16:20:15 <mjr> 10K is a bit much still
Jun 29 16:20:24 <mjr> you know, for personal use ;)
Jun 29 16:20:52 <aloril> hmm.. so.. 2-10 years away for mass market then
Jun 29 16:21:08 <juri_> the technology exists, its just not cheap enough... yet. i'm part of a venture to develop the UI/OS for such a system before the system becomes viable... and i think thats about the end of what i can talk about. :P
Jun 29 16:21:19 * juri_ takes a page from openmoko. say nothing. ;P
Jun 29 16:21:31 <aloril> juri_: USB2?
Jun 29 16:21:46 <aloril> hehe
Jun 29 16:22:45 <aloril> juri_: why something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann etc.. have done is not yet viable in mass market, only when done individually?
Jun 29 16:23:24 <juri_> really, i think thats about the end of my conversation keeping abilities. ;P
Jun 29 16:23:33 <aloril> ok ;-)
Jun 29 16:23:47 <aloril> juri_: very cool to hear that there are plans
Jun 29 16:23:50 <Vegar> aren't HMDs very eye-straining?
Jun 29 16:24:05 <mjr> sure, if they suck
Jun 29 16:25:31 <SpeedEvil> Not inherently.
Jun 29 16:25:36 <SpeedEvil> Done wrong, they can be.
Jun 29 16:26:29 <Vegar> wouldn't you have to keep focus very close to the eye?
Jun 29 16:26:45 <aloril> Vegar: no, optics make it look like it farther
Jun 29 16:26:55 <Vegar> ah
Jun 29 16:26:56 <Vegar> ok
Jun 29 16:27:21 <aloril> hmm.. I think OpenMoko is really good thing for wearable development
Jun 29 16:29:26 <mjr> may well be
Jun 29 16:30:01 <mjr> I was looking hard at wearables a few years back but too little, too expensive, too much work
Jun 29 16:30:40 <SpeedEvil> I was looking at them way back when.
Jun 29 16:31:01 <SpeedEvil> I had 90% of a 386/20 wearable designed, and then ran into supply problems.
Jun 29 16:31:16 <SpeedEvil> AMD based.
Jun 29 16:31:54 <SpeedEvil> 1*PCMCIA slot, 4 lithium AA cells (tadiran) buttons round the edge to do 'chording'
Jun 29 16:34:02 <aloril> add powered USB2 to Neo1973 and it should be enough, so its really now practically only missing covert HMD's that is holding up
Jun 29 16:35:17 * mjr likes SpeedEvil's bt/low power cpu concept in HMD better
Jun 29 16:35:41 <SpeedEvil> That's really mass market only though.
Jun 29 16:35:55 <SpeedEvil> Or a much longer dev time/effort.
Jun 29 16:36:01 <Elrond> hmd?
Jun 29 16:36:08 <SpeedEvil> Head Mounted Display.
Jun 29 16:36:09 <mjr> true
Jun 29 16:36:25 <mjr> I'd settle for a wired one
Jun 29 16:36:43 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: from things that make you look like a low-budget borg, to ones that are almost invisible in sunglasses.
Jun 29 16:37:50 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Ahh.
Jun 29 16:37:55 <Elrond> Nothing for me ;)
Jun 29 16:38:15 * mjr wouldn't also really mind slight borgification
Jun 29 16:38:48 <SpeedEvil> Implants like 7 of 9?
Jun 29 16:38:50 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jun 29 16:39:56 <aloril> Elrond: see http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann
Jun 29 16:40:45 <Elrond> BTW: Is bugzilla a little slow currently?
Jun 29 16:41:36 <aloril> covert HMD would be nice with some speech recognition: if new word heard, show wikipedia + google for it
Jun 29 16:42:02 <aloril> or live translation or ...
Jun 29 16:42:03 <SpeedEvil> Naah.
Jun 29 16:42:10 <SpeedEvil> That too maybe.
Jun 29 16:42:24 <SpeedEvil> Glance recognition would be _ultimately_ cool.
Jun 29 16:42:25 <aloril> *recognition* part?
Jun 29 16:42:30 <SpeedEvil> Add in face recognition.
Jun 29 16:42:37 <aloril> yeah, that too
Jun 29 16:42:44 <SpeedEvil> Little tags hovering over peoples heads.
Jun 29 16:42:55 <SpeedEvil> Never forget a name again.
Jun 29 16:42:57 <aloril> record 24h and then "where I have seen this person, etc.."
Jun 29 16:43:04 <Elrond> *G*
Jun 29 16:43:05 <aloril> and place, etc..
Jun 29 16:43:17 <mjr> yes, our reality needs augmenting
Jun 29 16:43:26 <SpeedEvil> And a 'what I did when I was drunk' log.
Jun 29 16:43:35 <Elrond> *lol*
Jun 29 16:44:07 <mjr> there was actually a very good sketch about a drunk-log in one of the finnish comedy series once
Jun 29 16:44:22 <aloril> low quality recording is possible now: 5KB/s for something like 160x120 video
Jun 29 16:44:23 <Elrond> So next time Speedevil gets drunk, we'll put some other stuff in his "drunk log" ;-)
Jun 29 16:44:30 <SpeedEvil> Alas.
Jun 29 16:44:33 <SpeedEvil> I'm boring.
Jun 29 16:44:39 <SpeedEvil> I don't drink alcohols.
Jun 29 16:44:55 <aloril> or 500MB/day or 200GB/year
Jun 29 16:45:14 <mjr> "jurrikamera", it was called; showed the guy ending up eventually against a table surrounded by fetishists and rocking rhythmically back'n'forth
Jun 29 16:45:17 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Well, choose another target ;)
Jun 29 16:45:18 <aloril> even that could be surprisingly useful "where did I put that?"
Jun 29 16:45:23 <SpeedEvil> A gig a day is 11K
Jun 29 16:45:45 <SpeedEvil> aloril: combine with a tiny UV flash, and UV barcodes.
Jun 29 16:45:54 <SpeedEvil> Barcode everything you own.
Jun 29 16:45:55 <aloril> still fits on one hard disk this year
Jun 29 16:46:38 <SpeedEvil> And a memory card come 2015 or so.
Jun 29 16:47:10 <Elrond> Is {wiki,bugzilla}.openmoko.org slashdotted?
Jun 29 16:47:45 <SpeedEvil> not talking to me
Jun 29 16:47:54 <aloril> well.. in 2-5 years you could up quality to 0.5G/h or 10G/day or 4TB/year which allows reasonable quality
Jun 29 16:47:59 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Jun 29 16:48:19 <aloril> question is more how much you want to pay for complete memory/year
Jun 29 16:48:43 <aloril> 4TB is now about 1000 EUR
Jun 29 16:49:31 <aloril> Elrond: it was at least digged
Jun 29 16:49:49 <aloril> http://digg.com/linux_unix/OpenMoko_the_Anti_iPhone
Jun 29 16:54:53 <Vegar> will there still be a P1.5?
Jun 29 16:55:08 <aloril> Vegar: it looks like P1.5 and P2 have merged
Jun 29 16:55:25 <aloril> Vegar: hardware was planned to be same all the time I think
Jun 29 16:55:26 <SpeedEvil> Yep.
Jun 29 16:55:34 <SpeedEvil> Looks so ratehr.
Jun 29 16:55:39 <SpeedEvil> P1.5=P2
Jun 29 16:55:46 <thomasg_> concerning the hardware: yes
Jun 29 16:56:11 <Vegar> what about software?
Jun 29 16:56:47 <thomasg_> they may change, because p1.5 will be sold for developers/interested people and p2 will be mass market and maybe come a bit later
Jun 29 16:57:17 <thomasg_> and as the software is opensource, the changes steadily
Jun 29 16:58:48 <Elrond> I hope it gets way more stable for mass market..
Jun 29 17:00:04 * SpeedEvil would not be surprised if hardware, price, or date for P2 changes though.
Jun 29 17:00:50 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Neither would I.
Jun 29 17:02:17 <aloril> neither me:
Jun 29 17:02:21 <aloril> counter
Jun 29 17:02:21 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 18:57:34 (9.790±1.0 days) (1648;242)
Jun 29 17:02:25 <aloril> (see page ;-)
Jun 29 17:12:44 <LuitvD> good afternoon
Jun 29 17:12:56 <Elrond> Hi LuitvD :-)
Jun 29 17:13:04 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 29 17:13:18 <Elrond> Ha, running the Neo at 1.66*default-dpi makkes it nice to read for me :-)
Jun 29 17:13:40 <greggypoo> i'm trying to figure out if there are any providers that will give a voice+data plan for a reasonable price
Jun 29 17:13:52 <LuitvD> Elrond: what do you mean?
Jun 29 17:13:55 <high-rez> What's reasonable to you?
Jun 29 17:14:00 <LuitvD> Elrond: smaller fonts?
Jun 29 17:15:42 <Elrond> LuitvD - I've increased the dpi, that the sxserver tells to apps. And as apps think  "Oh, the screen has higher resolution", they nneed to put more pixels to achieve the same "size on screen" ;-)
Jun 29 17:16:37 <LuitvD> Elrond: so you fool your software to get your graphics bigger?
Jun 29 17:17:00 <Elrond> LuitvD - Right. ;-)
Jun 29 17:17:07 <LuitvD> why bigger?
Jun 29 17:17:17 <Elrond> LuitvD - Nott to mention, that the default-dpi is way off.
Jun 29 17:17:29 <Elrond> LuitvD - Because I have bad eyes.
Jun 29 17:17:54 <LuitvD> I'd like 16px fonts on that 300dpi I guess...
Jun 29 17:18:20 <Elrond> You mean "unreadbale"? ;o)
Jun 29 17:18:24 <LuitvD> I'm near-sighted :)
Jun 29 17:18:52 <LuitvD> and I've got quite a good level of detail
Jun 29 17:19:16 <Elrond> Well, the default is unreadable. So exactly, what you want. ;-9
Jun 29 17:19:28 <LuitvD> yay :)
Jun 29 17:19:41 <Elrond> Hi koen 
Jun 29 17:19:55 <LuitvD> VGA screen really would be something for me ... though I don't think I'm gonna buy one...
Jun 29 17:20:37 <LuitvD> huh? now it's $300? :|
Jun 29 17:20:42 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jun 29 17:20:50 <LuitvD> wow
Jun 29 17:20:54 <LuitvD> how did that happen?
Jun 29 17:21:13 <SpeedEvil> I made them do it.
Jun 29 17:21:24 <LuitvD> heh
Jun 29 17:21:30 <LuitvD> thanks :)
Jun 29 17:21:34 * LuitvD bows to SpeedEvil 
Jun 29 17:21:36 <SpeedEvil> With my little dolls, and the special needles with hot-sauce on.
Jun 29 17:22:00 <LuitvD> you did a helluva job then
Jun 29 17:23:06 <LuitvD> hm, is that debug board, extra battery and 2 extra cables really worth 150 bucks... :S
Jun 29 17:23:23 <LuitvD> (oh wait, and an extra miroSD card...)
Jun 29 17:23:39 <SpeedEvil> case
Jun 29 17:23:48 <LuitvD> what is that 'toolbox'  ...
Jun 29 17:23:51 <LuitvD> how big is it?
Jun 29 17:24:09 <GaKKGaKk> Short recipe for HMD: Take small LCD, remove backlight. Now you can see the images only in daylight... Which doesn't matter since at night you don't see anything else than the screen anyway,  so you could use the Moko screen :)
Jun 29 17:24:19 <aloril> LuitvD: instead of keeping track who bought GTA01B_v04 and give discount to GTA02 buyers they decided to give discount for all GTA01B_v04 buyers
Jun 29 17:24:39 <GaKKGaKk> Since the light goes trough the lcd, you will get  darker image of teh world => built in sunglasses :P
Jun 29 17:24:41 <LuitvD> aloril: smart :)
Jun 29 17:24:41 <juri_> lcd isn't worth it. oled is where its at. :)
Jun 29 17:24:56 <GaKKGaKk> oled has built in light, no? = no see trough.
Jun 29 17:25:04 <Aria> Right.
Jun 29 17:25:32 <LuitvD> aloril: I wonder how this price compares to the real value ...
Jun 29 17:26:55 <SpeedEvil> GaKKGaKk: need two neos
Jun 29 17:27:02 <GaKKGaKk> My friend burned a hole in his laptop screen... The backlight was toast, but the lcd itself worked fine, so i removed everything else (including the back of the screen), and the screen works very nice as long as there is light behind it. (in front of a window, or outside)... Very Minority report :P
Jun 29 17:27:25 <GaKKGaKk> SpeedEvil: If you want stereovision :D
Jun 29 17:27:58 <LuitvD> GaKKGaKk: nice :)
Jun 29 17:28:59 <LuitvD> wow, july 9 is right after my second payday :)
Jun 29 17:29:14 * Aria grins.
Jun 29 17:29:49 <LuitvD> the amount of money I get by then is enaugh to get one :)
Jun 29 17:30:03 <LuitvD> now I'm really unsure about what phone to buy :P
Jun 29 17:30:26 <Aria> I've been holding out for a Moko
Jun 29 17:31:20 <Kero> hi Aria, also in this channel? :)
Jun 29 17:31:30 <Aria> Indeed.
Jun 29 17:32:11 <SpeedEvil> np: Bonnie Tyler - Holding on for a Moko.
Jun 29 17:40:46 <GaKKGaKk> Huhm... seems like OLED is old news... TOLED is the new black... Or rather, the new transparent.
Jun 29 17:41:13 <Kero> what's the T stand for?
Jun 29 17:41:27 <GaKKGaKk> Transparent.
Jun 29 17:41:28 <Aria> Transparent.
Jun 29 17:41:36 <GaKKGaKk> FTOLED was even better :D
Jun 29 17:41:50 <Kero> Flexible :)
Jun 29 17:42:29 <GaKKGaKk> You learn fast :D
Jun 29 17:43:13 <LuitvD> why transparent oled?
Jun 29 17:43:15 <GaKKGaKk> When they increase the resolution, we will get HDFTOLED... Try saying that fast!
Jun 29 17:43:21 <LuitvD> oled transmits light...
Jun 29 17:43:23 <Kero> on glass ?
Jun 29 17:43:29 <Aria> On flexible plastic.
Jun 29 17:43:43 <LuitvD> oh, wait, never mind :) transparent oled is great XD
Jun 29 17:43:47 <LuitvD> I've seen it
Jun 29 17:43:48 <GaKKGaKk> LuitvD: it emitts light, only where there is something to show :)
Jun 29 17:43:54 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist_-_Hardware_-_Novel_Devices]]
Jun 29 17:44:01 <LuitvD> GaKKGaKk: or blocks light
Jun 29 17:44:12 <GaKKGaKk> or even MAKES it... woa!
Jun 29 17:44:13 <LuitvD> GaKKGaKk: some OLED types can block light too
Jun 29 17:44:21 <LuitvD> most just transmit
Jun 29 17:44:33 <LuitvD> transmit and block
Jun 29 17:44:39 <Aria> Real-life alpha compositing ;-)
Jun 29 17:44:40 <GaKKGaKk> Well... if they block light.. they will not be "Light Emitting Diodes"
Jun 29 17:44:53 <GaKKGaKk> OLBD?
Jun 29 17:45:13 <Aria> DED
Jun 29 17:45:17 <Aria> Darkness emitting diodes.
Jun 29 17:45:19 <LuitvD> heheh
Jun 29 17:45:20 <Kero> block and emit, why not?
Jun 29 17:45:21 <GaKKGaKk> heh
Jun 29 17:45:25 <LuitvD> that's just plain wrong, DED
Jun 29 17:45:27 <Elrond> 1.66*defaultdpi appmanager (dialer and terminal to the left/right): http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/663016576/
Jun 29 17:45:34 <Aria> Yeah, I hear the prototypes suck.
Jun 29 17:45:41 <Kero> blacklight. holy grail of lighting
Jun 29 17:45:41 <Aria> (cue the booing)
Jun 29 17:46:18 <LuitvD> Elrond: do you really like that size?
Jun 29 17:46:51 <Kero> prototypes always suck. for one thing they're not for sale :)
Jun 29 17:47:27 <GaKKGaKk> HMHDFTOLODED - "Head Mounted High Definition Flexible Transparent Organic Light Or Dark Emitting Diode"... Coming to your Moko... in 3.46 days +/- eternity
Jun 29 17:47:44 <happycube> lol
Jun 29 17:48:16 <Elrond> LuitvD - The layout is b0rked, I know. It was a "for fun experiment".
Jun 29 17:49:00 <Elrond> LuitvD - But the menu font (on the appmanger): I can read it using my normal glasses, instead of using the microscope.
Jun 29 17:49:14 <LuitvD> Elrond: how's the performance?
Jun 29 17:49:37 <Elrond> LuitvD - You mean compared to default_DPI? No noticeable change.
Jun 29 17:49:48 <LuitvD> Elrond: nice
Jun 29 17:50:00 <LuitvD> Elrond: but I mean, is it faster then some early demos?
Jun 29 17:50:05 <LuitvD> overall speed
Jun 29 17:59:19 <antimoof> so, there's lots of goo about the studly specs for the inside of the 1973 (although wtf you'd need a graphics accelerator, I have no idea) - but wtf are the details for the actual _cellphone_ bit? or hell, what the display resolution is going to be?
Jun 29 17:59:20 <aloril> antimoof: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 17:59:49 <SpeedEvil> look at the neo1973 page on wiki
Jun 29 17:59:55 <antimoof> yeah, reading it now.
Jun 29 18:01:06 <Elrond> LuitvD - It feels a bit faster than when I got the toy (hmm, less then a month, I think). But maybe I just have accustomed to the slowness ;o)
Jun 29 18:07:35 <antimoof> oho, it's got an arm920t core.
Jun 29 18:07:51 <Elrond> antimoof - Yep.
Jun 29 18:07:54 <antimoof> (and thank god it's not using an intel part.)
Jun 29 18:08:11 <antimoof> even with the errata, they were so. amazingly. painful.
Jun 29 18:11:45 <ravan> where is task-openmoko-linux package located?
Jun 29 18:14:20 <antimoof> is there an actual pinout of the debug port? granted, the pcb silkscreen has most of the essentials (along with the ncie large harness test points.)
Jun 29 18:18:44 <antimoof> or perhaps more importantly: is there a on-flash version of devirginate that can repopulate a mostly-bricked phone from SD?
Jun 29 18:21:17 <aloril> as long u-boot is OK you can use USB-DFU
Jun 29 18:21:27 <cjb> antimoof: it's a little hard to imagine a bricking scenario that wouldn't take that functionality out too.
Jun 29 18:22:16 <antimoof> I'm mostly thinking of a situation where I've got my laptop and for some inexplicable reason I'm trying to flash a new image where I've fucked up the kernel, but still have minimal functionality.
Jun 29 18:23:32 <antimoof> typical stupid developer tricks, in other words.
Jun 29 18:24:12 <cjb> then you just use dfu to flash a new kernel/root image
Jun 29 18:24:17 <cjb> don't even need the debug board.
Jun 29 18:24:24 <Elrond> antimoof - Just but u-boot, use DFU to upload a new kernel/rootfs.
Jun 29 18:24:48 <Elrond> I use DFU regularly to load a kernel into RAM and boot it there.
Jun 29 18:24:48 <antimoof> 'k, that's what I wanted to know. cool.
Jun 29 18:25:12 <cjb> antimoof: the debug board is basically for firmware developers
Jun 29 18:25:53 <aloril> u-boot developers that is
Jun 29 18:26:17 <Elrond> And for people who absolutely need serial console for hardcore kernel development.
Jun 29 18:26:20 <aloril> (and you get console for kernel too or something like that)
Jun 29 18:26:30 <Elrond> ... I hope g_serial will once support console.
Jun 29 18:27:27 <Elrond> antimoof - u-boot running, kernel loaded into RAM via USB: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/523490336/in/set-72157600292781326/
Jun 29 18:28:28 <antimoof> presumably, the kernel/apps are pretty thumb-heavy?
Jun 29 18:29:43 <strtok> anyone have any idea how fast the developer phones are going to sell?
Jun 29 18:31:18 <Elrond> antimoof - You mean the UI?
Jun 29 18:31:44 <antimoof> no, I mean the ARM THUMB instructions.
Jun 29 18:32:15 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jun 29 18:32:27 <Elrond> I'm not very sure. But I doubt it.
Jun 29 18:32:48 <antimoof> really? huh. it's one of the canonical ways to save lots of space for little performance penalty.
Jun 29 18:33:13 <antimoof> (but that said, I've never dealt with ARM on leenooks, so I don't know how nicely the two play together.)
Jun 29 18:33:26 <galexande> i assume it all depends on whether or not gcc or gas is smart about using thumb alternatives
Jun 29 18:33:31 <Elrond> "leenooks"?
Jun 29 18:33:35 <galexande> i'm guessing not :)
Jun 29 18:33:54 <Elrond> galexande - Exactly my conclusion.
Jun 29 18:33:58 <antimoof> well, you can -mthumb or something like that. (and 'leenooks' is how linus pronounced linux.)
Jun 29 18:34:00 <galexande> at any rate, the neo1973 has a ton of memory for such a tiny little device
Jun 29 18:34:16 <SpeedEvil> My lappy has the sama amount ATM.
Jun 29 18:34:18 <antimoof> well, more importantly, it fits more nicely inside the cache.
Jun 29 18:34:33 <SpeedEvil> And Ive got 8 xterms open, and 30 windows open in FF
Jun 29 18:34:56 <SpeedEvil> 30 tabs in 2 windows rather
Jun 29 18:35:04 <thomasg_> firefox is totally fucked up here
Jun 29 18:35:21 <thomasg_> at 10 tabs and some sites with java script etc. it sucks 80% cpu (athlon64)
Jun 29 18:35:28 <SpeedEvil> 18777 root      15   0  159m  67m  12m S  0.3 54.3 112:27.09 firefox-bin        
Jun 29 18:35:36 <thomasg_> oh, gentoo :)
Jun 29 18:35:43 <SpeedEvil> Though root isn't root here for historical reasons
Jun 29 18:36:04 <SpeedEvil> flashblock works largely for me.
Jun 29 18:36:33 <antimoof> xul extensions can eat lots o' cpu time.
Jun 29 18:36:40 <antimoof> but animated gifs are the worst.
Jun 29 18:36:53 <SpeedEvil> yeah.
Jun 29 18:37:19 <SpeedEvil> Well - flash is worst.
Jun 29 18:37:22 <SpeedEvil> But...
Jun 29 18:42:08 <thomasg_> the biggest problem for me is a site with a bittorrent-tracker-interface (should be javascript and so on)
Jun 29 18:50:09 <aloril> strtok: depends on when /., digg notice (but I guess it could sell out before that even)
Jun 29 18:51:18 <aloril> strtok: there will be more later, FIC supposedly can produce as many phones as we can buy, but there will some delay: week(s) (to even months if demand is big)
Jun 29 18:53:25 <thor^^> hi
Jun 29 18:53:53 <aloril> it could be that it takes week or few for 1000 units to sell, but I think most except it to happen in a day (at least I will try to order as fast as possible ;-)
Jun 29 18:53:55 <ravan> where is task-openmoko-linux package located?
Jun 29 18:56:28 <aloril> FIC is big company, it can produce millions of them if there is demand ;-)
Jun 29 18:56:33 <alphaone> ravan: in oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb
Jun 29 18:57:31 * aloril would except that to happen only after mass market releases in some time in future, not with developer releases ;-)
Jun 29 18:59:04 <antimoof> is it known what gsm signaling protocols the calypso stuff can do? CDMA? CDMA2000? W-CDMA?
Jun 29 18:59:04 <galexande> so, is there a list of services/providers that work with the gsm/gprs in the openmoko?
Jun 29 18:59:05 <aloril> what do others think: how long it takes to sell out or is 1000 units even enough to meet demand?
Jun 29 18:59:12 <aloril> faq?
Jun 29 18:59:12 <aloril> See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
Jun 29 18:59:24 <aloril> galexande: that was for you
Jun 29 18:59:28 <ravan> alphaone: thanks
Jun 29 18:59:28 <antimoof> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers
Jun 29 18:59:37 <galexande> aloril, thanks i was looking through that yesterday but somehow missed the relevant one
Jun 29 18:59:38 <buz> i think i wait for gta02
Jun 29 18:59:54 <buz> and i suspect plenty of people will
Jun 29 19:00:15 <thor^^> is it possible to install openmoko on my pocket pc?
Jun 29 19:00:15 <aloril> thor^^: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 19:00:23 <thomasg_> I cannot wait, so gta01 will be mine :)
Jun 29 19:00:29 * bhima|n800 is waiting in line for an iPhone.
Jun 29 19:00:29 * bhima|n800 wonders if a portscan will reveal anything interesting.
Jun 29 19:00:30 <aloril> buz: yeah, but still I except it to sell out
Jun 29 19:00:40 <buz> paying 300$ for a device already known to be obsolete somehow doesnt seem so tempting
Jun 29 19:01:08 <buz> until someone ports openmoko to the ihphone, i dont give a ratsass about the iphone
Jun 29 19:01:36 <aloril> buz: I don't consider it obsolete and besides I would like to have 2 devices anyway (for neo<->neo fun)
Jun 29 19:01:59 <buz> well i wanted wifi from the begin
Jun 29 19:01:59 <aloril> for example: 2 player Go game with each one having Neo1973
Jun 29 19:02:10 <buz> plus its said that gta01 is dog slow rightnow
Jun 29 19:02:45 <aloril> buz: there has not been much optimization, so I except it to get faster eventually
Jun 29 19:03:04 <LuitvD> this monday apple will announce their european iPhone ... 
Jun 29 19:03:05 <galexande> i guess what i'm trying to find out is which plans you need...because on at&t i am seeing like $30 (300 voice minutes) + $60 (unlimited data) = $90, but they have a special plan for the iphone that will be $65 for all that and a bag of chips
Jun 29 19:03:16 <buz> yeah but once it's supplanted by gta02 offering both faster cpu AND gpu, optimization might not be very tempting for many
Jun 29 19:03:38 <buz> i suggest you dont eat chips when using a touchscreen SCNR
Jun 29 19:03:46 <galexande> buz, it's not an obsoleted device, it's your first chance to have a convenient overpowered unix computer in your cellphone
Jun 29 19:04:05 <buz> overpowered? i find my pentium m 1.6ghz to be sorely lacking
Jun 29 19:04:11 <galexande> picky picky
Jun 29 19:04:21 <Basheri> lol
Jun 29 19:04:22 <aloril> buz: slow -> fast on GTA01 would be acceptable -> fluid on GTA02
Jun 29 19:05:05 <buz> suppose the ui goes towards 3d stuff. you're SOL with gta01 then
Jun 29 19:05:23 <galexande> i'm guessing that the graphics accelerator is aimed at mpeg, not 3d
Jun 29 19:05:44 <aloril> somebody needs to connect 100 text terminals to GTA01 make feature for TV networks in which its compared to old mainframes connected to similar number of text terminals ;-)
Jun 29 19:05:46 <buz> s3c2442 could do mpeg4 on its own, probably
Jun 29 19:06:27 <galexande> i can do low-res mpeg on my ipaq (206mhz strongarm), but the neo is full vga
Jun 29 19:06:55 <buz> practically, QVGA video is more than good enough for neo size screen
Jun 29 19:07:04 <galexande> but i believe it has vga
Jun 29 19:07:07 <GaKKGaKk> Think it can do Transport Tycoon Deluxe on GTA01 without the GPU? Cause then it might be worth the price... :D
Jun 29 19:07:17 <GaKKGaKk> (open TTD ofcourse)
Jun 29 19:07:27 <mmp> btw, any idea what codec/resolution was used on the demonstration in moko ninjutsu videos?
Jun 29 19:07:30 <aloril> buz: in my opinion GTA01 has plenty of power (I think it has blazingly fast CPU compared to what I have now for example)
Jun 29 19:08:46 <buz> it not that much that i cant afford the 300$, it's more of matter of not being able to justify them
Jun 29 19:09:08 <galexande> the only part that i find hard to jsutify is paying like $600/year in excess cell phone bills for data
Jun 29 19:09:14 <aloril> buz: it sounds very much you probably want to wait, I'm not trying to get you buy GTA01B_v04 ;-)
Jun 29 19:09:30 <mjr> galexande, yes it has a vga screen, the point was that qvga res _video_ is good enough for the screen
Jun 29 19:09:51 <aloril> buz: not so for me, GTA01B_v04 is *huge* step, GTA02 is relatively small step compared to it
Jun 29 19:10:16 <galexande> i suspect the gpu will make the difference between resampling all your videos to qvga or lower, and just playing them directly
Jun 29 19:10:25 <galexande> aloril, you have phase 0 device?
Jun 29 19:10:26 <aloril> buz: basically going from "no cell phone linux box to having one" ;-) (almost from 0.0 to 1.0 ;-)
Jun 29 19:10:34 <galexande> oh :)
Jun 29 19:10:35 <aloril> galexande: nope, I'm waiting in line
Jun 29 19:10:36 <galexande> amen
Jun 29 19:10:46 <mjr> galexande, probably
Jun 29 19:10:53 <mjr> on the gpu thing
Jun 29 19:11:02 <mjr> at least if you're playing mpeg4 (non-h263)
Jun 29 19:11:49 <buz> that's non h264
Jun 29 19:12:05 <mjr> oops
Jun 29 19:12:12 <aloril> or.... well there is this tiny screen and shell, so not 0.0, but... say 0.2 (now) -> 0.8 (GTA01B_v04) -> 0.9 (GTA02) -> 1.0 (GTA03?)
Jun 29 19:12:30 <aloril> GPU is interestsing for OpenGL too
Jun 29 19:12:39 <buz> neverball ;)
Jun 29 19:13:10 <buz> tetris maybe
Jun 29 19:13:14 <mmp> from my PoV, GTA02 is Neo "Neverball edition" :)
Jun 29 19:13:16 <mjr> aloril, OMG wobbly windows FTW LOL
Jun 29 19:13:16 <buz> finally moving the damn device will do something
Jun 29 19:13:23 <alphaone> neverball was already fun on my IBM Thinkpad X40 with accelerometer :-)
Jun 29 19:13:25 <aloril> being able to call/answer is just excuse actually ;-)
Jun 29 19:14:24 <buz> does the gpu have aiglx support?
Jun 29 19:14:25 <buz> SCNR
Jun 29 19:14:54 <orospakr> heh, you guys talking about the upcoming 3d accelerator?
Jun 29 19:15:04 <orospakr> will it actually have a Free X driver that does GLX?
Jun 29 19:15:05 <buz> compiz fusion on a phone now that would be nice
Jun 29 19:15:09 <aloril> buz: I think at the moment its plain VGA support that is being coded... dunno how long before 3D related drivers ..
Jun 29 19:15:14 <SpeedEvil> 2D accel
Jun 29 19:15:15 <orospakr> buz: might help compete with the "iphone". :P
Jun 29 19:15:35 <buz> i suggest to call gta02 mePhone
Jun 29 19:15:36 <aloril> orospakr: I except it to have good 3D support (based on comments in that video)
Jun 29 19:15:40 <buz> or myPhone maybe?
Jun 29 19:15:44 <galexande> aloril, you have a cellphone with a shell?
Jun 29 19:15:48 <orospakr> aloril, video?
Jun 29 19:15:55 <aloril> galexande: midpssh
Jun 29 19:16:01 <orospakr> someone at the conference here has a p0
Jun 29 19:16:08 <orospakr> I saw them on bluetooth ;)
Jun 29 19:16:12 <galexande> heh, oh
Jun 29 19:16:13 <aloril> counter
Jun 29 19:16:13 <aloril> (last update 2007-06-28T13:46) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in a week, 2 days 16:43:42 (9.697±1.0 days) (1649;242)
Jun 29 19:16:23 <aloril> see tossug video linked from above page
Jun 29 19:18:38 <aloril> 1.43M triangles per second, etc.. from http://www.smediatech.com/Glamo3370_DM.pdf
Jun 29 19:21:20 <aloril2> anyway, using modfied midpssh now on low resolution screen, so reaction times not so good anymore ;-)
Jun 29 19:21:29 <antimoof> I find it fascinating how for many people it's almost a secondary consideration that the Neo is a phone.
Jun 29 19:21:42 <aloril2> hehe
Jun 29 19:23:22 <galexande> antimoof i don't think so....otherwise we'd be using the extant linux pdas rather than the upcoming linux phones
Jun 29 19:24:29 <juri_> i'm looking for a linux phone to integrate into my <content removed>.
Jun 29 19:27:50 * aloril2 doesn't use phone much, but needs one anyway
Jun 29 19:28:57 <antimoof> never underestimate the new/shiny/leet factor, heh. (compare with chumby, meraki, etc.)
Jun 29 19:29:34 <aloril2> GPRS on the other hand does matter, PDA doesn't have that
Jun 29 19:30:04 <antimoof> yeah. and why I was hoping there'd be more info on the chipset; I may be moving to japan Real Soon, and if it doesn't have the capability of UMTS 2100... :(
Jun 29 19:30:58 <mjr> for any phone, the phoneness is for me a secondary consideration
Jun 29 19:31:05 <mjr> antimoof, it doesn't
Jun 29 19:31:21 <antimoof> yeah, figured as such. nobody save the japanese really use it.
Jun 29 19:31:37 <mjr> quad-band GSM
Jun 29 19:43:14 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jun 29 19:43:31 <aloril2> OT: Prince 'giving' away CD with newspaper and reactions to it is hilarious
Jun 29 19:49:41 <macogw> can the neo1973 sync with computers?
Jun 29 19:50:41 <don-o> macogw: the neo1973 can speak usb
Jun 29 19:51:50 <macogw> but is there some kind of software to make it sync with calendar, contacts, etc., and if so for what OSes?
Jun 29 19:52:14 <macogw> my boss has been looking for a smartphone and cant find anything that'll work with her mac
Jun 29 19:52:51 <don-o> macogw: if you're looking for reliable one-touch operation, this aint it. the software is alpha quality, beta at best.
Jun 29 19:53:20 * don-o makes broad generalizations about the software quality based on running mokomakefile once. :)
Jun 29 19:53:40 <don-o> macogw: i mean my god, even the hardware is beta.
Jun 29 19:53:53 <don-o> macogw: if you're trying to help your boss, get her an iPhone.
Jun 29 19:54:10 <thor^^> hey
Jun 29 19:54:12 <macogw> heh
Jun 29 19:54:26 <thor^^> anyone know what's needed to flash a ppc rom?
Jun 29 19:54:33 <thor^^> with open moko ofcorse
Jun 29 19:54:35 <macogw> i thought the hardware was done since the site says theyre orderable, but ok
Jun 29 19:54:42 <don-o> thor^^: no but it's probably confusing to call it ROM
Jun 29 19:55:07 <don-o> macogw: this is the first round of hardware expected to be purchased by people working on the software
Jun 29 19:55:08 <thor^^> ok what should i call it then?
Jun 29 19:55:13 <macogw> i see
Jun 29 19:55:26 <thor^^> when i'm not calling it a rom(wich it is)
Jun 29 19:55:44 <don-o> thor^^: how do i update the flash-ram, might be better.
Jun 29 19:55:57 <don-o> thor^^: rom by definition cannot be updated.
Jun 29 19:56:06 <thor^^> it can
Jun 29 19:56:10 <thor^^> flashing ;P
Jun 29 19:56:14 * don-o grins
Jun 29 19:56:26 <don-o> thor^^: you have an interesting definition of rom.
Jun 29 19:56:43 <thor^^> The rom is used for the os, the ram is used for applications
Jun 29 19:56:50 <thor^^> that's how my ppc is build
Jun 29 19:57:09 <don-o> thor^^: would you agree that 'flashing' is the same as 'writing'?
Jun 29 19:57:19 <thor^^> sort of
Jun 29 19:57:28 <thor^^> and don't come say it's not possible
Jun 29 19:57:35 <thor^^> i've done it many times before
Jun 29 19:57:37 <bedboi> WOW!!!
Jun 29 19:57:41 <bedboi> That's it
Jun 29 19:57:44 <don-o> sort of contradicts the acronym, doesnt it.
Jun 29 19:57:44 <bedboi> 9 july
Jun 29 19:57:50 <don-o> bedboi: yup. whoho!
Jun 29 19:57:51 * bedboi takes the note.
Jun 29 19:57:52 <thor^^> not really
Jun 29 19:58:00 <bedboi> why not really? :)
Jun 29 19:58:15 <thor^^> cause your bios is a rom, it can be updated
Jun 29 19:58:23 * macogw guesses there are still no plans to have a future gen of openmoko with proper buttons instead of a touch screen
Jun 29 19:58:28 <thor^^> and everything labled Rom is writable
Jun 29 19:58:37 <thor^^> it's just protected from normal writing
Jun 29 19:58:42 <bedboi> thor^^: i thought you were talking about "9 july"
Jun 29 19:58:49 <thor^^> lol xD
Jun 29 19:58:58 <bedboi> Is it true?
Jun 29 19:59:06 <don-o> i guess if you were born after the 70s, all 'rom' is flash ram these days.
Jun 29 19:59:21 <thor^^> nope
Jun 29 19:59:21 <don-o> bedboi: check out openmoko.com
Jun 29 19:59:25 <don-o> bedboi: its pretty true
Jun 29 20:00:09 <thor^^> I've worked with programming a Rom, wich happends to be older than you
Jun 29 20:00:46 <don-o> thor^^: do you mean EEPROM
Jun 29 20:01:40 <thor^^> idc, i did't come here to fight, i came here to get answers ^^
Jun 29 20:01:50 <aloril2> don-o: hehe, in this case I can agree with iPhone recommendation ;-)
Jun 29 20:02:16 <don-o> aloril2: :)
Jun 29 20:02:27 <don-o> thor^^: i dont know the answer to the original question, so i'll just shut up now :)
Jun 29 20:02:57 <thor^^> :)
Jun 29 20:03:12 <happycube> i'd mind a clamshell gta01 with buttons, actually
Jun 29 20:03:15 <happycube> *i'd like
Jun 29 20:03:34 <don-o> i want a screen big enough to watch episodes of battlestar galactica
Jun 29 20:03:43 <macogw> i hate the thought of having to deal with more of apple's braindead products (note: "braindead" for reasons which would label this "holy war" not for objective reasons)
Jun 29 20:03:47 <happycube> ;)  i think that's one of the three next year
Jun 29 20:04:05 <don-o> happycube: indeed. yippe. 
Jun 29 20:04:06 <happycube> gta02 should be good for watching BSG... if you have a magnifying glass
Jun 29 20:04:12 <don-o> lol
Jun 29 20:04:20 <thor^^> lol
Jun 29 20:04:56 <thor^^> i'm watching BSG on my k750i :P
Jun 29 20:05:04 <don-o> thor^^: HA
Jun 29 20:05:05 <macogw> if i ever get a smartphone, i think it'll have to be crackberry
Jun 29 20:05:09 <macogw> they have buttons
Jun 29 20:05:22 <juco> blech
Jun 29 20:05:34 <don-o> oh gawd not a RIM product. those baseless-patent-enforcing beep-beeps.
Jun 29 20:05:34 <macogw> oh great the next crackberry probably wont have buttons thanks to the current obsession with touchscreens
Jun 29 20:06:03 <macogw> well if you can name another smartphone that uses real tactile-feedback-having buttons, let me know
Jun 29 20:06:18 <don-o> touchscreens signal the glorious return of the PDA.
Jun 29 20:06:29 <macogw> yuck
Jun 29 20:06:39 <macogw> any phone that i cant dial without looking is a P.O.S.
Jun 29 20:07:06 <juco> you dial your phone without looking?
Jun 29 20:07:07 <don-o> macogw: i see. voicedialing over a bluetooth earpiece?
Jun 29 20:07:38 <macogw> as far as i can see on apple's website, the iphone doesnt do voicedialing
Jun 29 20:07:56 <don-o> macogw: yeah i was just throwing that out there. it probably will in a future update :)
Jun 29 20:08:10 <macogw> and bluetooth earpieces make you look like a tool
Jun 29 20:08:15 <macogw> or a crazie
Jun 29 20:08:27 <macogw> or both
Jun 29 20:08:29 <don-o> or super-fly
Jun 29 20:08:50 <macogw> i generally think theyre talking to themselves
Jun 29 20:09:07 <deepank> alphaone:around
Jun 29 20:09:14 <macogw> at least if you have a wire hanging from your ear, people can tell you're not nuts
Jun 29 20:09:19 <alphaone> deepank: yeah
Jun 29 20:09:45 <Elrond> Hi alphaone!
Jun 29 20:09:48 <deepank> alphaone:help me, still getting no device
Jun 29 20:09:54 <alphaone> Elrond: Hi
Jun 29 20:10:47 <alphaone> deepank: Hmm, you installed bluez-utils and bluez-libs version 3.11?
Jun 29 20:11:25 <deepank> alphaone:i installed 3.12 version form source code
Jun 29 20:11:27 <alphaone> deepank: And you changed Autostart=true in /etc/bluetooth/network.service?
Jun 29 20:11:33 <alphaone> okay
Jun 29 20:12:23 <macogw> actually, the regular buttons on regular phones nowadays are rather sucky too.  razrs have those lame metal plates that you cant feel if it got the press or if it took it 3x.  mine i can kinda feel where buttons begin and end, but sometimes it feels like it dialed when it didnt.  they should bring back the rubber ones that you could feel easily, like on a Nokia 5190
Jun 29 20:12:40 <deepank> alphaone:I do not have that file 
Jun 29 20:12:50 <deepank> that is the problem
Jun 29 20:13:01 <alphaone> deepank: Maybe a configure option?
Jun 29 20:14:20 <deepank> alphaone: I will check and tell you. What does this option do? 
Jun 29 20:15:48 <alphaone> deepank: I'm not even sure it exists. Just an idea. I
Jun 29 20:16:16 <alphaone> I'll look into the ebuild and try to see if it does anything out of the ordinary here.
Jun 29 20:16:32 <aloril2> macogw: there are 3 models after GTA02: almost nothing is told about them, maybe some of them have keyboard
Jun 29 20:16:42 <macogw> mmmk
Jun 29 20:16:57 <don-o> there is a very small bluetooth keyboard that can be used with the neo :)
Jun 29 20:17:19 <don-o> macogw: you could dial from your pocket-keyboard in one pocket, talking to the neo in the other pocket.
Jun 29 20:17:39 <bedboi> talking in the pocket ? :)
Jun 29 20:17:42 <don-o> macogw: while wearing sunglasses and looking straight up. its the ultimate :)
Jun 29 20:17:55 <don-o> bedboi: oh good point. throw in a (wired!) earpiece :)
Jun 29 20:18:03 <macogw> O_o
Jun 29 20:18:04 <bedboi> Nah!!!
Jun 29 20:18:13 <macogw> youd look like Ford Prefect
Jun 29 20:18:13 <don-o> cant have anyone thinking macogw is some kind of freak! :)
Jun 29 20:18:33 <bedboi> Ford Perfect rules
Jun 29 20:19:19 <don-o> seriously though, this keyboard could be really useful. http://www.spartechnik.de/start.htm?d_Keyb_Mini_Mini_Bluetooth_Keyboard_im_Scheckkartenformat.htm
Jun 29 20:19:53 <bedboi> A propose of Douglas Adamns...I'm reading Dirk Gentley the holistic detective.It's a good book
Jun 29 20:20:21 <alphaone> deepank: It's probably --enable-network
Jun 29 20:20:33 <macogw> wrong keyboard shortcut
Jun 29 20:23:02 <Basheri> yeap, a keyboard would be great.. especially for irc ;)
Jun 29 20:27:27 <thomasg_> well, maybe there will be really cool touchscreen solutions
Jun 29 20:27:33 <thomasg_> in the wiki are some nice things
Jun 29 20:27:47 <alphaone> deepank_: It's probably --enable-network
Jun 29 20:30:32 <ScaredyCat> july 9th ?
Jun 29 20:30:58 <ScaredyCat> s/?/:O/
Jun 29 20:30:58 <apt> ScaredyCat meant: july 9th :O
Jun 29 20:31:30 <bedboi> i fear that there will be too much orders
Jun 29 20:31:56 <bedboi> and that neo will be sold out in 1 day
Jun 29 20:32:04 * Kero too
Jun 29 20:33:06 <ScaredyCat> yeah...
Jun 29 20:33:16 <ScaredyCat> what about us poor europeans :(
Jun 29 20:33:19 <Kero> "it's a totally worthless piece of hardware, without any software to run, better spend your money elsewhere"
Jun 29 20:33:28 <Kero> if I scare you. I can buy :)
Jun 29 20:33:47 <ScaredyCat> yeah... that's gonna work in here ... ;)
Jun 29 20:33:53 * Kero is european, too
Jun 29 20:33:55 <Basheri> yeap, poor us =(
Jun 29 20:34:19 <Kero> perhaps I should complain om forums like /. instead :P
Jun 29 20:34:26 <happycube> i actually think orders'll pick up over time as people buy some for embedded/special apps... i could see quantity orders later on
Jun 29 20:34:30 <happycube> (even after gta02 comes out)
Jun 29 20:36:06 <happycube> and unlike certain other products you could use it as a pda/remote display without activating it as a phone ;)
Jun 29 20:36:09 * ScaredyCat tries to find order process /....
Jun 29 20:36:11 <happycube> ^ more likely with gta02
Jun 29 20:36:13 <ScaredyCat> can we preorder? 
Jun 29 20:36:18 <Kero> Jul 9
Jun 29 20:36:22 <Kero> I will tell you Jul 10
Jun 29 20:36:25 <ScaredyCat> cos we're 'special'
Jun 29 20:36:26 <happycube> lol
Jun 29 20:37:07 * ScaredyCat thinks Kero should get an iphone, more your thing :P
Jun 29 20:37:25 <Basheri> That's an insult =)
Jun 29 20:37:37 <ScaredyCat> I know :)
Jun 29 20:37:47 <Kero> he's chasing me aaway.
Jun 29 20:37:57 <Kero> but he's not as scary a cat as he'd wish :)
Jun 29 20:38:01 <happycube> i wonder how many zaurus sales the neo will take away ;)
Jun 29 20:38:04 <zecke> cworth: in which circumstances cairo_scaled_font_glyph_extents is not setting extents.x_advance?
Jun 29 20:38:19 <happycube> because even gta02 is much cheaper than a z
Jun 29 20:38:41 <ScaredyCat> raaaarrrrrr
Jun 29 20:38:55 <cworth> zecke: Not setting? Or setting to 0 or some other wrong value?
Jun 29 20:39:05 <Basheri> fuck, i need to get more money
Jun 29 20:39:31 <Basheri> i can't afford neo and t61
Jun 29 20:39:42 <zecke> cworth: not writing to it. At least valgrind is not seeing a write (can be a false positive)
Jun 29 20:39:45 <happycube> i think a lot of gta01's will be used as bt/gps/gsm modules and gta02's as linux pda's (wifi)
Jun 29 20:39:47 <cworth> zecke: I would think the answer should be never, (excepting bugs), but you might ask in #cairo to reach people (*cough* behdad *cough) who know more about fonts than I do.
Jun 29 20:40:15 <cworth> Oh, cool, behdad is actually in this channel too, (though #cairo is still the right place I would think...).
Jun 29 20:40:47 <alphaone> deepank: Have you found the option?
Jun 29 20:41:04 * behdad reads
Jun 29 20:41:20 <zecke> cworth: okay :)
Jun 29 20:41:23 <cworth> zecke: Oh, and it won't set it at all if the scaled font is in an error state.
Jun 29 20:41:32 <ScaredyCat> happycube, get the t61 ...
Jun 29 20:41:39 * ScaredyCat muwhahaha's 
Jun 29 20:41:47 <cworth> zecke: Check if cairo_scaled_font_status() returns CAIRO_STATUS_SUCESS or not.
Jun 29 20:41:49 <behdad> cworth: that's a bug then.  we should fill metrics with 0 or something
Jun 29 20:41:51 <macogw> happycube, re the comment about using it as a pda without activating the phone part: i could see a lot of people doing that because they want to keep Verizon on their cell phone.  Verizon > all when it comes to service area (at least in the US)
Jun 29 20:42:05 <deepank> alphaone:--enable-network worked. changed the file
Jun 29 20:42:12 <macogw> but verizon doenst use GSM phones
Jun 29 20:42:12 <cworth> behdad: Yeah, just reporting what I found in the code here...
Jun 29 20:42:37 <alphaone> deepank: Great
Jun 29 20:42:46 <behdad> cworth: file a bug please.  I have to run out in minutes
Jun 29 20:43:49 <cworth> behdad: I'll file a big general bug---it's probably worth auditing the getters in general.
Jun 29 20:44:40 <behdad> cworth: yep.  make sure ickle reads it ;)
Jun 29 20:44:56 <zecke> hehe
Jun 29 20:45:29 <behdad> cworth: the code coverage report is useful btw.  now some erro paths are hard to hit, but others need tests.
Jun 29 20:45:46 <ScaredyCat> no discount on the gta02 .. :(
Jun 29 20:46:29 <aloril2> macogw: 12 different gestures and different vibrator feedback with current Neo1973
Jun 29 20:46:30 <thomasg_> but gta01 at $300 :)
Jun 29 20:46:45 <ScaredyCat> yeah, but no wifi...
Jun 29 20:46:52 * ScaredyCat is poor...
Jun 29 20:47:36 <cworth> behdad: Yeah, I've been meaning to put up regular coverage results for a long time.
Jun 29 20:47:51 <cworth> behdad: So that thing you found is running regularly on cairo now?
Jun 29 20:48:03 <mjr> ScaredyCat, umm, you wouldn't have gotten the discount anyway if you didn't buy the "yeah, but no wifi" model...
Jun 29 20:48:15 <zecke> behdad: what do you use for coverage reports? Linux Testing Project gcov wrappers?
Jun 29 20:48:31 <mjr> so I don't see what you're complaining about
Jun 29 20:48:47 <behdad> cworth: yes
Jun 29 20:49:02 <behdad> zecke: Igalia is doing GNOME builds
Jun 29 20:49:10 <ScaredyCat> mrj .. I would but gta01 + discounted 02
Jun 29 20:49:10 <cworth> behdad: That's awesome. We'll need to link that in to cairo's (shiny new) wiki ASAP.
Jun 29 20:49:18 <behdad> yep
Jun 29 20:49:55 <cworth> behdad: Bugs filed. Go catch your flight or whatever. :-)
Jun 29 20:49:59 <ScaredyCat> buy
Jun 29 20:50:19 <ScaredyCat> 300.00 USD=221.619 EUR=149.364 GBP
Jun 29 20:50:27 <ScaredyCat> actually, it doesn't sound too bad now
Jun 29 20:50:50 <happycube> no discount on 02... they cut the price on 01 intead
Jun 29 20:50:55 <mjr> ScaredyCat, but not discounted 01 + non-discounted 02? that makes no sense, if one doesn't assume somehow that the hypothetical 02 discount would be considerably larger
Jun 29 20:50:57 <behdad> cworth: hehe.  thanks.  heading home to cook actually.  have friends over for dinner.  will drive early in the morning
Jun 29 20:51:18 * ScaredyCat buys 2 and sells one to Kero at an inflated price
Jun 29 20:51:43 <koen> zecke: any definitive answer on your guadec attendance
Jun 29 20:51:54 <Kero> ohno :)
Jun 29 20:51:57 <koen> zecke: ?
Jun 29 20:52:16 <deepank_> alphaone:so how did you proceed furthur, hcitool scan isnt detecting the connection now
Jun 29 20:52:40 <zecke> koen: nope, the exam was moved. But the presentation is still  on the monday (17th, 18th, whatever)
Jun 29 20:52:56 <ScaredyCat> mrj, I'd assume that the 02 would cost more, and have a bigger discount...
Jun 29 20:53:20 <mjr> "don't assume," etc
Jun 29 20:53:38 <ScaredyCat> yeah, I know...
Jun 29 20:53:45 <ScaredyCat> I guess I was just hoping... :)
Jun 29 20:54:00 <don-o> cost more AND have a bigger discount. i like that reasoning.
Jun 29 20:54:16 <ScaredyCat> ?
Jun 29 20:54:20 <don-o> as a consumer anyways.
Jun 29 20:54:23 <alphaone> deepank_: Sorry, I have no idea how to control that new daemon.
Jun 29 20:54:28 <ScaredyCat> discount for 01 buyers
Jun 29 20:54:36 <alphaone> deepank_: Probably via dbus
Jun 29 20:54:42 <galexande> i think there's a big difference between people who will pay $300 for a phone and people who will pay $450 for a phone
Jun 29 20:54:45 <don-o> ScaredyCat: oh okay that makes more sense
Jun 29 20:55:35 <alphaone> Does anyone in here have any experience with the new bluez-utils? (The ones that start as dbus service)
Jun 29 20:58:07 <alphaone> deepank_: Maybe you want to see if anyone in #bluez can help you
Jun 29 20:59:13 <galexande> i'm surprised i didn't learna bout this project earlier.. openmoko.org is great like handhelds.org
Jun 29 20:59:17 <alphaone> deepank_: Just found http://wiki.bluez.org/wiki/Architecture maybe that will help a bit
Jun 29 21:01:05 <ScaredyCat> multi touch
Jun 29 21:02:29 <alphaone> deepank__: Judging from the page it seems like you need some sort of dbus bluetooth setting app that doesn't yet exist
Jun 29 21:06:25 <sid> http://digg.com/tech_news/iPhone_Defective_By_Design
Jun 29 21:06:33 <sid> If anyone here cares about the cause, digg that please.
Jun 29 21:07:30 <SpeedEvil> I'm pretty much assuming the cause is the leading vowel.
Jun 29 21:10:21 <deepank> alphaone:yes, but I am hoping something like this exists
Jun 29 21:13:15 <SpeedEvil> galexande: Consider it. For that $150, you get accelerometers, 2D accel - which may mean better battery life as well as better video playback - a little more flash, and a faster CPU.
Jun 29 21:13:56 <SpeedEvil> Oh - wifi too
Jun 29 21:13:58 <bedboi> SpeedEvil: the problem is waiting 'til october :)
Jun 29 21:14:02 <SpeedEvil> Yeah
Jun 29 21:14:05 * ScaredyCat agrees
Jun 29 21:14:11 <Vegar> four months
Jun 29 21:14:13 <Vegar> it's nothing
Jun 29 21:14:16 <ScaredyCat> so I may just wait until the 9th :)
Jun 29 21:14:34 <SpeedEvil> However. There may be people offering stuff that can be added to your neo to upgrade it.
Jun 29 21:14:41 <ScaredyCat> ?
Jun 29 21:14:42 <bedboi> Vegar: in 4 months i will live in 3 different continents
Jun 29 21:14:49 <bedboi> Vegar: it's a lot of time :)
Jun 29 21:14:55 <SpeedEvil> I'm considering offering a 'Add 3 axes accels for $40 or so'
Jun 29 21:15:00 <ScaredyCat> hardware SpeedEvil ?
Jun 29 21:15:00 <SpeedEvil> service
Jun 29 21:15:04 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jun 29 21:15:14 <galexande> speed, sure, but i'm not going to carry something in my pocket that is that expensive
Jun 29 21:15:24 <SpeedEvil> Many phones are that expensive.
Jun 29 21:15:30 <galexande> yeah, and i don't own them :)
Jun 29 21:15:31 <SpeedEvil> You can get them insured.
Jun 29 21:15:37 <ScaredyCat> fitted SpeedEvil /
Jun 29 21:15:38 <ScaredyCat> ?
Jun 29 21:15:49 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: fitted - in the UK wouldn't be a problem.
Jun 29 21:16:00 <SpeedEvil> Fitted - from the rest of the world probably would.
Jun 29 21:16:03 <hrw> galexande: my previous phone was worth 1600 pln in time when I bought it for 99 pln (with 2y contract)
Jun 29 21:16:07 <dff> So where do i buy this?
Jun 29 21:16:07 <aloril> dff: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 29 21:16:11 <SpeedEvil> As customs and excise don't understand.
Jun 29 21:16:12 <ScaredyCat> that's good then.. :) UK is good for me :)
Jun 29 21:16:18 <SpeedEvil> dff: not yet announced.
Jun 29 21:16:28 <hrw> galexande: current one costed me 199 pln and without contract it would cost >1000 pln.
Jun 29 21:16:32 <dff> It was supposed to come at october?
Jun 29 21:16:40 <hrw> so neo with 300$ is <1000 pln now probably
Jun 29 21:16:45 <SpeedEvil> The upgraded version is in Oct.
Jun 29 21:16:56 <ScaredyCat> dff - tghat's the consumer version
Jun 29 21:17:13 <SpeedEvil> !google 320 US dollars in pln
Jun 29 21:17:14 <cdbot2> 320 U.S. dollars = 897.920472 Polish zloty
Jun 29 21:17:27 <SpeedEvil> !google 300 US dollars in pln
Jun 29 21:17:28 <cdbot2> 300 U.S. dollars = 841.800443 Polish zloty
Jun 29 21:17:29 <ScaredyCat> loty
Jun 29 21:17:30 <SpeedEvil> rather
Jun 29 21:17:45 <dff> !google 300 US dollars in Euro
Jun 29 21:17:47 <cdbot2> 300 U.S. dollars = 222.915738 Euros
Jun 29 21:17:55 <ScaredyCat> 300.00 USD=221.619 EUR=149.364 GBP
Jun 29 21:18:04 <dff> mmm
Jun 29 21:18:10 <ScaredyCat> xe.com
Jun 29 21:18:12 <dff> 200euros for a phone :p
Jun 29 21:18:20 <dff> but well its the worlds best
Jun 29 21:18:32 <SpeedEvil> dff: look at the prices of unsubsidised phones.
Jun 29 21:18:38 <SpeedEvil> It's not in any way out of line.
Jun 29 21:18:48 <galexande> i haven't bought a palmtop since 2003, it's time
Jun 29 21:18:49 <ScaredyCat> yeah, dff, this isn't locked to a carrier
Jun 29 21:18:56 <dff> thats true :-P
Jun 29 21:19:05 <galexande> who wants my old ipaq
Jun 29 21:19:08 <dff> so im confused, is it out yet?
Jun 29 21:19:13 <galexande> dff, july 9
Jun 29 21:19:26 <ScaredyCat> no, on the 9th, developer version, october consumer version
Jun 29 21:19:34 <galexande> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html
Jun 29 21:19:39 <galexande> who cares about consumers :)
Jun 29 21:19:43 <dff> i dont know the months in english
Jun 29 21:19:47 <SpeedEvil> IMO, developer or consumer is misleading.
Jun 29 21:19:53 <SpeedEvil> dff: 13 days
Jun 29 21:19:57 <dff> woohoo
Jun 29 21:20:03 <ScaredyCat> 3rd from last month for consumer dff
Jun 29 21:20:15 <SpeedEvil> At least from hardware point of view.
Jun 29 21:20:23 <dff> so can the consumer access the source code?
Jun 29 21:20:27 <ScaredyCat> yes
Jun 29 21:20:32 <SpeedEvil> With Octobers software, the 'current' version will be almost as capable.
Jun 29 21:20:39 <galexande> hahaha this is awesome, they're intentionally exposing the spi and i2c buses
Jun 29 21:20:44 <SpeedEvil> dff: Wander over the wiki.
Jun 29 21:20:49 <ScaredyCat> it's open....dff -  that;s the point :)
Jun 29 21:20:56 <galexande> no more "solder onto the corner of this resistor"
Jun 29 21:21:13 <dff> lol
Jun 29 21:21:21 <SpeedEvil> galexande: One minor annoyance - I hoped for there to be an actual connecotr.
Jun 29 21:21:23 <SpeedEvil> But...
Jun 29 21:21:38 <SpeedEvil> That would have made external hardware add-ons _much_ simpler.
Jun 29 21:22:03 <galexande> it sounds like teh jtag is exposed externally
Jun 29 21:22:24 <SpeedEvil> It is.
Jun 29 21:22:28 <ScaredyCat> yeah, bio implants
Jun 29 21:22:51 <ScaredyCat> it'd need a backpack...
Jun 29 21:22:53 <dff> are there any pics of the phone open?
Jun 29 21:22:56 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back
Jun 29 21:22:59 <SpeedEvil> dff - yes
Jun 29 21:23:00 <hrw> galexande: you need debug board for jtag
Jun 29 21:23:08 <hrw> dff: yes - in wiki
Jun 29 21:23:11 <dff> good
Jun 29 21:23:17 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil,  gadzooks!!!!! 
Jun 29 21:23:21 <dff> and is nokia behind all of this?
Jun 29 21:23:26 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
Jun 29 21:23:28 <SpeedEvil> dff
Jun 29 21:23:43 <dff> i bet it has to be some very rich company who can buy prototypes of a mobile phone
Jun 29 21:23:46 <dff> or design one
Jun 29 21:23:50 <galexande> dff, FIC
Jun 29 21:23:58 <SpeedEvil> FIC _is_ a phone maker
Jun 29 21:24:04 <SpeedEvil> they make several million a year.
Jun 29 21:24:16 <SpeedEvil> At the moment, they are a subcontractor largely to Nokia et al.
Jun 29 21:24:36 <ynezz> oh, really?
Jun 29 21:24:40 <SpeedEvil> They want to get away from being lowest bidder on a contract making a few percent to selling it to the consumer and making 50%
Jun 29 21:24:46 <dff> well the price isn't so bad
Jun 29 21:24:48 <thomasg_> FIC is not only a phone producer, they are a relatively big (OEM) computers manufacturer
Jun 29 21:25:02 <dff> are they really supporters of Open Source or do they jsut wanna make money
Jun 29 21:25:08 <SpeedEvil> Both.
Jun 29 21:25:19 <SpeedEvil> They are providing core team for developing OpenMoko
Jun 29 21:25:22 <thomasg_> like it should be
Jun 29 21:25:26 <SpeedEvil> and they want to be a hardware supplier.
Jun 29 21:25:30 <dff> oh
Jun 29 21:25:37 <ScaredyCat> yeah, but orange... where's the black :)
Jun 29 21:25:40 <SpeedEvil> However, if Nokia leaps onto the OpenMoko bandwagon, FIC benefits.
Jun 29 21:25:49 <thomasg_> ScaredyCat, black-silver is also available
Jun 29 21:25:52 <thomasg_> orange is only one color
Jun 29 21:25:58 <dff> well anyways open source electrinics is the way to go
Jun 29 21:26:02 <SpeedEvil> As the volume of sales go way up, and they can compete directly on hardware.
Jun 29 21:26:10 <SpeedEvil> It's _not_ open source electronics.
Jun 29 21:26:19 <ScaredyCat> I guess they'd be snap on/off covers thomasg_ 
Jun 29 21:26:22 <galexande> but it's closer than anything else i'm going to buy in the next month :)
Jun 29 21:26:23 <ScaredyCat> ?
Jun 29 21:26:25 <dff> well open source software for electrinics
Jun 29 21:26:28 <SpeedEvil> It's open source software, which manufacturers can choose to sell hardware for.
Jun 29 21:26:32 <thomasg_> ScaredyCat, they have
Jun 29 21:26:44 <ScaredyCat> ahh good move: )
Jun 29 21:27:02 <thomasg_> well, there is extremely less opensource hardware
Jun 29 21:27:24 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: the black/silver case is the current one.
Jun 29 21:27:28 <thomasg_> as a complex opensource hardware I only know Sun's new OpenSPARC processors
Jun 29 21:27:53 <SpeedEvil> ScaredyCat: there have been no pictures of the black/silver phone dissasembled. But it should be identical.
Jun 29 21:28:34 <thomasg_> imho the black-silver is very sexy (evene I I'd like to have black anodized aluminium ^^). hope also the haptics is good
Jun 29 21:29:18 <thomasg_> *even if
Jun 29 21:29:21 <ScaredyCat> black silver looks better imho
Jun 29 21:29:35 <ScaredyCat> or just black
Jun 29 21:29:42 <thomasg_> yes, black is the best :)
Jun 29 21:29:53 <galexande> it runs linux it doesn't matter if it's purple :)
Jun 29 21:30:05 <thomasg_> saying that looking on my black happy hacking keyboard, my black thinkpad, my black iAudio X5 and all the other black devices on my desk :)
Jun 29 21:30:12 <ScaredyCat> you get a pink on then galexande 
Jun 29 21:30:16 <ScaredyCat> one
Jun 29 21:30:19 <galexande> can i get a discount?
Jun 29 21:30:22 <ScaredyCat> no
Jun 29 21:30:25 <galexande> :(
Jun 29 21:30:26 <ScaredyCat> costs more
Jun 29 21:32:51 <thomasg_> well, maybe SpeedEvil will build a stainless steel cover for me :)
Jun 29 21:33:42 <ScaredyCat> titanium
Jun 29 21:33:45 <ScaredyCat> :D
Jun 29 21:34:06 <thomasg_> well, stainless steel would be expensive, but titanium -.-
Jun 29 21:34:15 <thomasg_> why not platinium? ^^
Jun 29 21:34:31 <ScaredyCat> encrusted with diamonds?
Jun 29 21:34:45 <thomasg_> no, diamonds are too cheap
Jun 29 21:34:56 <don-o> rotfl
Jun 29 21:35:01 <thomasg_> mybe opals?
Jun 29 21:35:14 <ScaredyCat> for the hard buttons..
Jun 29 21:36:05 <thomasg_> well, it's only one
Jun 29 21:36:12 <thomasg_> but as every opal is unique, that could be good :)
Jun 29 21:38:26 <SpeedEvil> Opal is _horribly_ soft
Jun 29 21:39:04 <SpeedEvil> Synthetic gems - sapphire, cubic zirconium is nice.
Jun 29 21:39:57 <SpeedEvil> What I really want is a neo with a diamondlike carbon glass cover, and SAW touch-sensor.
Jun 29 21:40:33 <SpeedEvil> They produce the glass for using in barcode scanner windows where they have tins dragged over it all day
Jun 29 21:40:59 <SpeedEvil> Rather than the fragile plastic touchscreen.
Jun 29 21:41:32 <thomasg_> SAW touch sensor? whats that?
Jun 29 21:42:18 <ScaredyCat> cuts your fingers off if you misdial
Jun 29 21:42:32 <thomasg_> lol
Jun 29 21:43:08 <galexande> hahaha how many arm cores will this thing have in it
Jun 29 21:43:33 <galexande> one in the gsm, one in the bluetooth, one in the s3c, one in the 802.11b, ...gps?
Jun 29 21:44:15 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]
Jun 29 21:44:38 <SpeedEvil> galexande: no
Jun 29 21:44:43 <SpeedEvil> galexande: GPS is 'dumb'
Jun 29 21:44:50 <ScaredyCat> yeah
Jun 29 21:44:55 <ScaredyCat> such a shame
Jun 29 21:44:59 <SpeedEvil> SAW is 'surface accoustig wave'
Jun 29 21:45:33 <SpeedEvil> basically, it's like all those sub-films sonar displays you've seen, but detecting fingers, not attack subs.
Jun 29 21:45:41 <thomasg_> hehe
Jun 29 21:45:53 * ScaredyCat makes sonar noises
Jun 29 21:46:02 <thomasg_> would multitouch work with SAW?
Jun 29 21:47:04 <don-o> thomasg_: i would hope militar sonar can track multiple subs at once :)
Jun 29 21:47:10 <don-o> s/militar/military
Jun 29 21:47:22 * ScaredyCat makes more sonar noises
Jun 29 21:47:24 <thomasg_> well, military sonar is different :)
Jun 29 21:48:00 <thomasg_> if a accoustic touchscreen would work with military sonar it'd recognize mouch more than taps on the screen :)
Jun 29 21:49:53 <don-o> ScaredyCat: Engage the caterpillar drive! :)
Jun 29 21:50:17 * ScaredyCat crazy ivan's
Jun 29 21:52:58 <don-o> "It would be well for your government to consider that having your PDAs and ours, your smartphones and ours, in such proximity... is inherently DANGEROUS. Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador. "
Jun 29 21:55:28 <LuitvD> ~logs
Jun 29 21:55:29 <apt> extra, extra, read all about it, logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz
Jun 29 21:57:53 <ScaredyCat> My Morse is so rusty, I could be sending him dimensions on playmate of the month. 
Jun 29 22:11:29 <ansivirus> will these phones be able to be used on any wireless provider?
Jun 29 22:11:30 <aloril> GTA02 (P1+/P1.5) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jun 29 22:11:51 <SpeedEvil> You mean phone provider?
Jun 29 22:11:52 <Aria> ansivirus: Any GSM provider.
Jun 29 22:11:55 <SpeedEvil> faq?
Jun 29 22:11:55 <aloril> See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
Jun 29 22:11:57 <SpeedEvil> in there
Jun 29 22:12:21 <ansivirus> cool.. thanks
Jun 29 22:12:40 <don-o> the iPhone is for sale on the east coast. this channel is no longer relevant. 
Jun 29 22:12:45 * don-o ducks
Jun 29 22:12:59 <woglinde_> 2000 bucks for phone yes
Jun 29 22:13:16 <ScaredyCat> lol
Jun 29 22:13:30 <ScaredyCat> like a kipper
Jun 29 22:14:13 <ynezz> iphone costs $2000?
Jun 29 22:14:23 <ScaredyCat> contract
Jun 29 22:14:25 <cjb> over the required two years.
Jun 29 22:14:27 * balrog-kun didn't realise all the iPhone noise was about a phone that wasn't for sale until now :p
Jun 29 22:14:32 <woglinde> with the highest contract vom at&t yes
Jun 29 22:14:36 <don-o> balrog-kun: ha!
Jun 29 22:14:52 <woglinde> from
Jun 29 22:14:53 <cjb> $500 + (($60 * 12) * 2)
Jun 29 22:15:02 <ynezz> ah
Jun 29 22:15:03 <cjb> woglinde: no, that is the cheapest contract
Jun 29 22:15:06 <cjb> $59.99
Jun 29 22:15:11 <LuitvD> not really, no
Jun 29 22:15:18 <woglinde> hm oh I read 1400
Jun 29 22:15:20 <ScaredyCat> now we have to put up with 1000 unboxings, user reviews etc... :/
Jun 29 22:15:28 <CoreDump|home> hi
Jun 29 22:15:31 <don-o> ScaredyCat: indeed. the reviews will be endless.
Jun 29 22:15:46 <LuitvD> ScaredyCat: I guess youtube will have to create a special channel for that...
Jun 29 22:15:53 <cjb> http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/specials/iPhone.jsp
Jun 29 22:15:58 <balrog-kun> i hope it sucks :)
Jun 29 22:16:06 <cjb> lists the plans, from $59.99 -> $219.99/mo
Jun 29 22:16:09 <Kero> so... should I keep a blog about the Neo? ordering, receiving, hacking?
Jun 29 22:16:13 <don-o> live 'blog' updates on people waiting outside of apple stores in various cities: http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/29/iphone-multi-city-lineblog/
Jun 29 22:16:20 * ewon waits for the openmoko
Jun 29 22:16:20 <balrog-kun> on the other hand competition is goof
Jun 29 22:16:22 <balrog-kun> *good
Jun 29 22:16:25 <woglinde> balrog for apple fellowers nothing suckz from apple even it were cow-poo
Jun 29 22:16:26 <don-o> Kero: yes and get on planet.openmoko.org
Jun 29 22:16:29 <ScaredyCat> they'll never know if it sucks, it has brainwashing technology built in
Jun 29 22:16:33 <SpeedEvil> Kero: Sure. Thouhg add to the wiki if there is actual stuff that isn't on there.
Jun 29 22:16:33 <Kero> to counter those iPhone mumbling articles
Jun 29 22:16:42 <zecke> woglinde: ;)
Jun 29 22:16:55 <thomasg_> well, the iPhone is more a marketing story than a real competitor as a smartphone
Jun 29 22:17:31 <galexande> especially an open smartphone
Jun 29 22:17:36 <ScaredyCat> so, asmartphone for the dumb then :P
Jun 29 22:17:43 <thomasg_> no, it's no smartphone
Jun 29 22:17:56 <galexande> i just remember my last smartphone, i beat it to pieces because it had a buggy as hell closed source dialer app
Jun 29 22:17:57 * don-o rolls his eyes
Jun 29 22:18:11 <thomasg_> apple tells the world it is - but a smartphone defines through the possibility for the user to install navite(!) applications
Jun 29 22:18:21 <galexande> navite!!!
Jun 29 22:18:28 <thomasg_> *native, sry
Jun 29 22:18:29 <balrog-kun> smartphone vs. dumbphone
Jun 29 22:18:38 <ScaredyCat> galexande, i want to do that with my p910i - worst phone i ever had.
Jun 29 22:18:59 <galexande> it didn't make me feel better, though it did make it stop crashing when i pressed 'answer', i highly recommend it.
Jun 29 22:19:11 <LuitvD> 450 minute plan at least? damn, that's way too much
Jun 29 22:19:12 <Kero> SpeedEvil: I'd write a story. if I can explain (parts) of what matters in a Free phone in a bunch of blog articles... that's unlikely to work on a wiki
Jun 29 22:19:20 <SpeedEvil> True.
Jun 29 22:19:22 <Kero> don-o: maybe
Jun 29 22:19:32 <Kero> SpeedEvil: I'll put relevant data on the wiki, of course
Jun 29 22:19:41 * Kero doesn't even run a blog atm.
Jun 29 22:20:01 <ScaredyCat> we wouldn't read it ayway ;)
Jun 29 22:20:02 * balrog-kun launched his today
Jun 29 22:20:20 * ScaredyCat pokes kero with a stick
Jun 29 22:20:36 <woglinde_> damnit
Jun 29 22:20:41 <woglinde_> crappy connection today
Jun 29 22:20:51 <woglinde_> hm my wife should check the wires
Jun 29 22:20:52 <Kero> ScaredyCat: you wouldn't read it. especially if you didn't get a P1, huh? :)
Jun 29 22:21:13 <ScaredyCat> I am getting one, yours. :D
Jun 29 22:21:37 <Kero> this will get nasty at some point... >:)
Jun 29 22:22:33 <ScaredyCat> new advertising campaign...
Jun 29 22:22:44 <ScaredyCat> "Would you fight for your phone"
Jun 29 22:22:56 <happycube> heh, woz is at valley fair
Jun 29 22:23:04 <balrog-kun> woglinde_: because you don't want to get electrocuted?
Jun 29 22:23:38 <LuitvD> hahaha
Jun 29 22:23:43 <woglinde_> no because my wife connect the cables comming through the wall
Jun 29 22:23:44 <Kero> fight for freedom? yes!
Jun 29 22:24:02 <ScaredyCat> finish him!
Jun 29 22:24:29 <ScaredyCat> Moko Combat.....
Jun 29 22:24:32 <ScaredyCat> fight
Jun 29 22:24:35 <woglinde_> lol
Jun 29 22:25:07 <thomasg_> SpeedEvil, do you also have access to 3d-scanners for making models of the neo's cover? :)
Jun 29 22:25:20 <SpeedEvil> I have something better.
Jun 29 22:25:27 <SpeedEvil> I have a digital caliper!
Jun 29 22:25:28 <ScaredyCat> cheese?
Jun 29 22:25:31 <SpeedEvil> And a file!
Jun 29 22:25:41 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jun 29 22:26:57 <LuitvD> from now on I'm 1531708 :D
Jun 29 22:27:46 <ScaredyCat> well, I am not  number, I am a free man
Jun 29 22:28:51 <SpeedEvil> well, I am not a number, I am a free man
Jun 29 22:29:09 * LuitvD grins at SpeedEvil 
Jun 29 22:29:40 <LuitvD> That, my dear sir, whas thé right answer
Jun 29 22:30:15 <LuitvD> I'm now a number because of college... 
Jun 29 22:30:25 <LuitvD> :) those people like numbers I guess
Jun 29 22:30:28 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Jun 29 22:30:42 <Kero> ha
Jun 29 22:30:49 * Kero was a number at university
Jun 29 22:30:54 <Kero> then technology advanced
Jun 29 22:31:05 <Kero> and I got my name back, for email
Jun 29 22:31:10 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 29 22:31:22 <LuitvD> great development...
Jun 29 22:31:27 <Kero> so, I got a job, and again got my name as account
Jun 29 22:31:40 <Kero> but, since about 1.5 years, I'm a number again.....
Jun 29 22:31:47 <LuitvD> lol
Jun 29 22:32:09 <ScaredyCat> phjlkmn
Jun 29 22:32:18 <Kero> it's a much bigger number, tho.
Jun 29 22:32:32 <LuitvD> OMG, youtube just gave me a HTTP-500 response, Internal Server Error
Jun 29 22:32:56 <LuitvD> Kero: is it the SHA-1 of your full name?
Jun 29 22:33:46 <Kero> LuitvD: nono. smaller than your number. only 5 digits. but a three-char prefix that has some bearing on location.
Jun 29 22:34:03 <LuitvD> lol
Jun 29 22:34:04 <Kero> 3 digits was enough at university :)
Jun 29 22:34:09 <LuitvD> wow
Jun 29 22:34:19 <LuitvD> what shithole was that in? :P
Jun 29 22:34:44 <LuitvD> 3 digits... I don't believe you
Jun 29 22:34:45 <Kero> LuitvD: Groningen, back in 1992
Jun 29 22:34:55 <LuitvD> omfg
Jun 29 22:35:06 <LuitvD> was groningen that small back then?
Jun 29 22:35:18 <Kero> they needed four digits by the time I left
Jun 29 22:35:25 <LuitvD> hehe
Jun 29 22:35:29 <LuitvD> improvement
Jun 29 22:35:44 <LuitvD> my high school needed 6 when I left it...
Jun 29 22:35:54 <LuitvD> I started with a 5 digit student number...
Jun 29 22:35:57 <Kero> 30CS + 30Math first year students in 1992.
Jun 29 22:36:12 <Kero> small, I'd say
Jun 29 22:36:23 <Kero> no idea how big they are these days
Jun 29 22:36:24 <LuitvD> high school (middelbare school)
Jun 29 22:36:56 <LuitvD> ours is about 1500 students right now... it'll be about 100 more next year :P it's growing every year
Jun 29 22:37:36 * Aria would have had a graduating class of 15 in her high school
Jun 29 22:37:51 <LuitvD> 6 digits for 1500 students and 100 other people is way overkill though
Jun 29 22:38:13 <LuitvD> Aria: when? (or where...)
Jun 29 22:38:21 <Kero> LuitvD: it's like ip4 addresses. you run out of preallocated chunks before you know it.
Jun 29 22:39:16 <LuitvD> Kero: by the time that school runs out of 5-digit student numbers, their computer system will be ancient
Jun 29 22:39:51 <LuitvD> it was only 4 years ago when they switched to windows XP... they ran 2000 before that...
Jun 29 22:40:10 <LuitvD> they really should switch to linux.......
Jun 29 22:40:26 <LuitvD> they pay way too much for those M$ licenses
Jun 29 22:40:30 <Aria> LuitvD: 2000. Ridgway, Colorado.
Jun 29 22:41:24 <LuitvD> Aria: hmm, that's quite small... Our class was 25 students. 100 students on my grade, 300 total graduating students
Jun 29 22:41:26 <LuitvD> this year
Jun 29 22:41:37 <Aria> No kidding.
Jun 29 22:41:42 <LuitvD> really
Jun 29 22:42:03 <LuitvD> graduation was done in 3 'ceremonies'
Jun 29 22:42:09 <LuitvD> one for each grade
Jun 29 22:42:53 <LuitvD> then again, it's a school with 1500 students
Jun 29 22:44:02 <Aria> Hehe. Mine had 300.
Jun 29 22:44:03 <Kero> groningen has 22500 students, total :)
Jun 29 22:44:10 <LuitvD> Kero: that's univ.
Jun 29 22:44:15 <LuitvD> Kero: not high school
Jun 29 22:44:22 <Kero> oops :)
Jun 29 22:44:31 <Kero> my school had about 1000
Jun 29 22:44:37 <Kero> too big already
Jun 29 22:45:02 <LuitvD> there's about 5 high-schools in my town... mine has 1500 students... and the town has a population of 60.000
Jun 29 22:45:03 <LuitvD> XD
Jun 29 22:46:58 <Kero> CS was trying to compare with CS total students in Groningen... can't find a number, tho. 200 max all current students together, I guess...
Jun 29 22:47:23 <LuitvD> really
Jun 29 22:47:29 <LuitvD> that's not much
Jun 29 22:47:50 <LuitvD> that's about half of the new students influx of my former school
Jun 29 22:47:50 <Kero> nope
Jun 29 22:48:13 <LuitvD> what nope?
Jun 29 22:48:19 <Kero> nope - not much
Jun 29 22:48:21 <LuitvD> ah
Jun 29 22:48:32 <LuitvD> that nope
Jun 29 22:49:06 <LuitvD> and groningen is a city... zeist isn't even a city
Jun 29 22:49:57 <LuitvD> [00:44] <Kero> too big already
Jun 29 22:50:01 <ScaredyCat> groningen, isn't that farming uni?
Jun 29 22:50:03 <LuitvD> anything above 400 is too much
Jun 29 22:50:19 <Kero> hehe, apples and pears; I'm babbling about school and university alternatingly :)
Jun 29 22:50:22 <LuitvD> ScaredyCat: depends on which univ in groningen I guess...
Jun 29 22:50:28 <Kero> ScaredyCat: Wageningen is farming
Jun 29 22:50:36 <ScaredyCat> yah...
Jun 29 22:50:47 <ScaredyCat> know about waggy, ...
Jun 29 22:51:09 <LuitvD> [00:16] <cjb> lists the plans, from $59.99 -> $219.99/mo
Jun 29 22:51:15 <LuitvD> that's not even the most expensive
Jun 29 22:51:32 <LuitvD> 339.99 is the most expensive one...
Jun 29 22:51:34 <GaKKGaKk> What the hell makes it worth 220$ / minute?
Jun 29 22:51:37 <GaKKGaKk> month.
Jun 29 22:51:41 <GaKKGaKk> :)
Jun 29 22:51:45 <LuitvD> lolz
Jun 29 22:52:01 <LuitvD> that'd be a plan for a spoilt rich kid, 220/minute
Jun 29 22:52:18 <GaKKGaKk> Unlimited 3G data download. (oh wait... no 3g) :P
Jun 29 22:52:19 <LuitvD> 220/month = 6000 minutes
Jun 29 22:52:32 <thomasg_> sick
Jun 29 22:52:38 <LuitvD> and 200 SMS text messages, HAWHAWHAW
Jun 29 22:52:49 <thomasg_> I hate text messages -.-
Jun 29 22:53:05 <happycube> $20 for unlimited sms?  wtfbbq?
Jun 29 22:53:24 <thomasg_> what a luck that I don't have to pay for calling :)
Jun 29 22:53:35 * Kero can type a line in IRC that is longer than a text msg allows... easily... and faster too...
Jun 29 22:53:49 <LuitvD> thomasg_: who does then? your employer?
Jun 29 22:53:56 <thomasg_> nobody :)
Jun 29 22:54:23 <thomasg_> my employer is a mobile provider, so he doesn't have to pay, too :)
Jun 29 22:54:35 <LuitvD> oeh, nice
Jun 29 22:54:38 <GaKKGaKk> Huhm... i have a free call plan... 4 numbers to call free unlimited minutes and send unlimited messages.... and 7$/month would give me free calls and SMS to everyone...
Jun 29 22:54:39 <LuitvD> which one?
Jun 29 22:54:43 <thomasg_> t-mobile
Jun 29 22:54:50 <thomasg_> but not US
Jun 29 22:54:54 <LuitvD> ah, deutche-telekom
Jun 29 22:55:04 <GaKKGaKk> There seems to be to little competition in America...
Jun 29 22:55:31 <LuitvD> thomasg_: "but not US" > no shit... t-mobile is german :P
Jun 29 22:55:46 <GaKKGaKk> And the whole "unable to buy phones not locked to a phone company" is utter bullshit...
Jun 29 22:55:51 <GaKKGaKk> :)
Jun 29 22:55:54 <thomasg_> GaKKGaKk, no,  thats a world-wide phenomenon
Jun 29 22:56:24 <thomasg_> LuitvD, t-mobile is in many european countries and in some us-states
Jun 29 22:56:43 <thomasg_> one of the 10 biggest providers in the world I'd guess
Jun 29 22:56:53 <LuitvD> thomasg_: I know, but if someone talks about t-mobile, I rather think of deutsche telekom then the US-part of t-mobile
Jun 29 22:57:11 <LuitvD> allthough I'm dutch...
Jun 29 22:57:23 <happycube> i'm on t-mo us
Jun 29 22:57:45 <LuitvD> thomasg_: the best one to choose when you don't call much in the netherlands
Jun 29 22:57:54 <happycube> (switched from then-at&t... their gsm here was overpriced and useless)
Jun 29 22:58:24 <GaKKGaKk> thomasg_: That might be true, but at least I am able to buy any phone and use it with any company, and americans should be able to too....
Jun 29 22:58:31 <thomasg_> I'd wish for the people in germany, that the plans in germany would be as cheap as the us-plans are
Jun 29 22:59:02 <rrripley> =q
Jun 29 22:59:05 <LuitvD> the biggest here are Vodafone, T-Mobile, KPN, Telfort and Hi I think
Jun 29 22:59:15 <LuitvD> (in that order, IMHO)
Jun 29 22:59:35 <LuitvD> Voda isn't a good market leader
Jun 29 23:00:09 * LuitvD uses the KPN network
Jun 29 23:00:31 <LuitvD> (and will use the T-Mobile network I think...)
Jun 29 23:00:36 <LuitvD> (soon)
Jun 29 23:00:49 <thomasg_> the biggest here: T-Mobile, Vodafone, O2/Telefonica, E-Plus/KPN
Jun 29 23:01:35 <happycube> i think the us goes: at&t, verizon, sprint, t-mo
Jun 29 23:02:07 <happycube> verizon is horrible though - bluetooth crippling, horrible 'unlimited' data tos, cdma, that kinda thing
Jun 29 23:02:41 <happycube> sprint might be >#3 post-nextel merger tho
Jun 29 23:03:09 <LuitvD> bluetooth crippling? how in the name of ...
Jun 29 23:03:22 <happycube> they turn off file transfers so you have to pay to get pictures out
Jun 29 23:03:28 <happycube> yes'rly
Jun 29 23:03:33 <LuitvD> :|
Jun 29 23:03:41 <LuitvD> crippled hardware?
Jun 29 23:04:01 <LuitvD> ... damn
Jun 29 23:04:27 <LuitvD> what can you do then? just BT headset?
Jun 29 23:04:28 <happycube> and since it's cdma you can't BYOphone
Jun 29 23:04:41 <happycube> and tether... although too much data and you break the TOS and they call you a pirate ;)
Jun 29 23:04:59 <LuitvD> yarr
Jun 29 23:05:14 <Kero> how come verizon still has customers?
Jun 29 23:05:16 <Kero> :)
Jun 29 23:05:28 <happycube> "Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess services cannot be used (1) for uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games, (2) with server devices or with host computer applications, including, but not limited to, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, Voice over IP (VoIP), automated machine-to-machine connections, or peer-to-peer (P2P) file sharing, or (3) as a substitute or backup for private lines or
Jun 29 23:05:30 <thomasg_> well, many customers don't know many things
Jun 29 23:05:34 <happycube>   throughput or amount of data transferred, deny or terminate service, without notice, to anyone we believe is using NationalAccess or BroadbandAccess in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network or service levels.
Jun 29 23:05:46 <happycube> unlimited my ass.
Jun 29 23:05:55 <thomasg_> lol
Jun 29 23:06:38 <bluelightning> someone should sue them for false advertising
Jun 29 23:07:37 <LuitvD> happycube: I can get a 1GB/month mobile internet package for 21 euros... (just a tad less then 30 dollars)
Jun 29 23:07:45 <LuitvD> happycube: and that c
Jun 29 23:08:08 <LuitvD> s/that c/that can be used for all of the above/
Jun 29 23:08:08 <apt> LuitvD meant: happycube: and that can be used for all of the above
Jun 29 23:08:25 <Kero> LuitvD: where do you get that?
Jun 29 23:08:57 <LuitvD> Kero: students-only I guess (wireless circle... Koen mentioned it on this channel once... I guess he uses it...)
Jun 29 23:09:18 <Kero> ok
Jun 29 23:09:31 <LuitvD> Kero: on the Telfort (now KPN) network. GPRS/UMTS/HSDPA access :)
Jun 29 23:10:07 <thomasg_> the best you can get in germany is a data flatrate for 40 euro (about $55) on the vodafone network
Jun 29 23:10:27 <SpeedEvil>  per month?
Jun 29 23:10:29 <thomasg_> yes
Jun 29 23:11:07 <SpeedEvil> I'm awaiting a response on a possible $25/mo unlimited data tarrif from t-mobile
Jun 29 23:11:19 <SpeedEvil> it's implied but not stated on their (UK) website
Jun 29 23:11:34 <thomasg_> E-Plus sells there data flat for 25 euro (bit less than $35) but they combine it with a voice flat for also 25 euro. and the e-plus network sucks
Jun 29 23:11:58 <zecke> thomasg_: it is okay in the big cities
Jun 29 23:12:07 <thomasg_> erm, it's ok, but still not good
Jun 29 23:12:12 <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly.
Jun 29 23:12:13 <thomasg_> the have no hsdpa e.g.
Jun 29 23:12:23 <SpeedEvil> I'm in the process of putting up foil-lined plasterboard in my house.
Jun 29 23:12:24 <thomasg_> and no edge, and poor gprs
Jun 29 23:12:33 <zecke> maps.google.com works nicely with eplus and umts
Jun 29 23:12:33 <SpeedEvil> Which will utterly screw indoor reception.
Jun 29 23:13:10 <thomasg_> well, surely it does, but I'd recommend the resaler on the vodafone network with that 40 euro plan
Jun 29 23:13:39 <thomasg_> vodafone currently has the best umts network and they have hsdpa phase2 (3.6 mbit/s)
Jun 29 23:14:13 <LuitvD> I do want a HSDPA phone, but I don't want to spend 500+ money units on the device alone...
Jun 29 23:14:14 <LuitvD> :(
Jun 29 23:14:30 <LuitvD> s/money units/euros/
Jun 29 23:15:01 <thomasg_> and hsdpa simply rocks. on our (t-mobile) net I got more than 3 mbit/s net, more than you can get in public wifi hotspots
Jun 29 23:15:18 <LuitvD> thomasg_: all for free?
Jun 29 23:15:23 <thomasg_> noo
Jun 29 23:15:32 <thomasg_> we are way to expensive :(
Jun 29 23:15:43 <LuitvD> but for you
Jun 29 23:15:44 <thomasg_> well, like I said, it doesn't matter for me, but for our customers it does.
Jun 29 23:16:11 <LuitvD> I meant, can you pull 3Mbit HSDPA for free? because of your employer?
Jun 29 23:16:18 <thomasg_> yes
Jun 29 23:16:21 <LuitvD> DAMN
Jun 29 23:16:25 <thomasg_> :)
Jun 29 23:16:31 <LuitvD> where do I apply for a job like yours? :(
Jun 29 23:16:44 <thomasg_> I'm only a small technican :(
Jun 29 23:16:52 <LuitvD> mimimi
Jun 29 23:16:59 <thomasg_> *technician
Jun 29 23:17:00 <LuitvD> I want a free phone plan too
Jun 29 23:17:14 <thomasg_> well, to be correct, I have 4 :)
Jun 29 23:17:15 <LuitvD> lol, thomas is a can
Jun 29 23:17:27 <LuitvD> omfg, I'm yealous :P
Jun 29 23:17:28 <Q_Continuum> I'm curious - how usable is the Neo right now? (Will be getting one for review purposes, plan to use it as my primary phone and replace the Treo - as the treo doesn't quite sync with the apps I use)
Jun 29 23:17:50 <Kero> LuitvD: many employers cn provie one, if you push them (and need the phone for the job, at least part of the time)
Jun 29 23:17:57 <SpeedEvil> It is - as I understand it - just about usable as a basic phone for inbound and outbound calls.
Jun 29 23:17:58 <thomasg_> Q_Continuum, afaik it's not very usable. calling is possible, but not much more :) (from the sight of an end-user)
Jun 29 23:18:01 <Kero> downside is, they'll call you 24/7 :)
Jun 29 23:18:06 <SpeedEvil> Much more - well no.
Jun 29 23:18:17 <Q_Continuum> Ok
Jun 29 23:18:23 <thomasg_> Kero, you can turn it off :)
Jun 29 23:18:27 <LuitvD> Q_Continuum: "doesn't quite sync" nope, it doesn't if you don't pay
Jun 29 23:18:34 <thomasg_> maybe thats the best on the devices :)
Jun 29 23:18:37 <Q_Continuum> Then I guess I do some hackin, and learn code - figure out how to make TBird-lite
Jun 29 23:18:42 <Kero> thomasg_: they'll get pissed :)
Jun 29 23:19:06 <Q_Continuum> LuitvD, what do you mean if you don't pay?  I'm not aware of any pay-for *nix apps for syncing
Jun 29 23:19:07 <LuitvD> Kero: true
Jun 29 23:19:18 <LuitvD> Q_Continuum: I meant your Palm device
Jun 29 23:19:19 <thomasg_> well, if there's an emergency they will really call you (or me ^^)
Jun 29 23:20:01 <LuitvD> Q_Continuum: your treo can sync up with about anything you can think of, but only if you "Buy" the right apps
Jun 29 23:20:28 <Kero> thomasg_: whose definition of emergency...
Jun 29 23:20:40 <LuitvD> mine
Jun 29 23:20:48 <Kero> ...depends on the job; and how much you can teach your colleagues/boss/etc
Jun 29 23:20:48 <Q_Continuum> ah
Jun 29 23:20:50 <thomasg_> Kero, hehe :)
Jun 29 23:21:12 <thomasg_> on our network a real emergency would be if a mobile switching center or the utran crashes :)
Jun 29 23:21:48 <LuitvD> thomasg_: then they'll need all the manpower they can get? on MSC crash?
Jun 29 23:22:20 <thomasg_> depends. mainly they need people who know what they do :)
Jun 29 23:22:26 <LuitvD> :P
Jun 29 23:22:31 <thomasg_> I'm not a msc-pro
Jun 29 23:22:40 <thomasg_> so they won't call me :)
Jun 29 23:22:43 <Kero> thomasg_: I'm in research. nothing constitutes an emergency. nearly noone has my phonenumber. and my boss does not pay my phone. I like it that way.
Jun 29 23:22:53 <LuitvD> having people that know what they're doing is always usefull :P
Jun 29 23:23:09 <thomasg_> Kero, I'd like to be in research, too
Jun 29 23:23:29 <thomasg_> but that needs much more knowledge and qualification
Jun 29 23:23:42 <thomasg_> well, I'm young, should be possible :)
Jun 29 23:24:06 * LuitvD would love to be in hardware prototyping (and the therefore needed Research & Development)
Jun 29 23:24:49 <thomasg_> yeah, I also think that'd be cool
Jun 29 23:24:57 * Kero changed job within reasearch; no more scientist, software engineer now.
Jun 29 23:25:14 <Kero> dept close to ours does hardware.
Jun 29 23:25:41 <LuitvD> my only R&D hardware project sofar didn't quite work as I hoped it would... :)
Jun 29 23:25:59 <Kero> *grin* always tough.
Jun 29 23:26:29 <Kero> one of our projects worked juuust fiiiine. It's called AmbiLight TV today :D
Jun 29 23:26:57 <LuitvD> (let's just say I always start a project with good progress, and get it all messed up, and leave it to lay around in my room for some weeks, months, whatever
Jun 29 23:27:16 <LuitvD> but then again... I
Jun 29 23:27:18 <Kero> work on it together with someone else
Jun 29 23:27:31 <LuitvD> (damn that ' key being next to the Return key)
Jun 29 23:27:49 <thomasg_> Kero, you're working for Philips?
Jun 29 23:27:55 <LuitvD> but then again... I'm just 17 years old, and far from being a certified engineer
Jun 29 23:27:59 <Kero> thomasg_: yes
Jun 29 23:28:14 <thomasg_> so you're dutch?
Jun 29 23:28:18 <LuitvD> so you're in the television devision? or not anymore?
Jun 29 23:28:23 <Stephmw> LuitvD: that's ok, at least you've got more sense than managers 3x your age already
Jun 29 23:28:27 <Stephmw> LuitvD: you can only go up
Jun 29 23:28:44 <Kero> yup, dutch; no, in research.
Jun 29 23:28:44 <LuitvD> Stephmw: what exactly do you mean by 'more sense' ?
Jun 29 23:29:08 <Stephmw> LuitvD: well, for a start, you discuss things in here... and you're here at all :)
Jun 29 23:29:09 <LuitvD> Kero: research isn't devided?
Jun 29 23:29:17 <Kero> the research wasy paid by lighting, and we hooked things up with a TV; so it ended up in TV business
Jun 29 23:29:34 <Kero> it's... "structured"
Jun 29 23:29:40 <LuitvD> Stephmw: ah, true :) most managers don't care for Open source, agreed
Jun 29 23:29:45 <Kero> but not according to product divisions
Jun 29 23:30:13 <Stephmw> gotta head off, the missus is making angry noises
Jun 29 23:30:19 <SpeedEvil> Wave.
Jun 29 23:30:30 <LuitvD> I think I'm gonna start something small soon... something really small I hope... miniUSB > IR dongle
Jun 29 23:30:33 <SpeedEvil> Does anyone happen to remember the LCD interface on the neo?
Jun 29 23:31:11 <thomasg_> he Kero, what do you think about an ambilight in the neo? ^^
Jun 29 23:31:30 <thomasg_> SpeedEvil, no information on the wiki?
Jun 29 23:31:32 <LuitvD> I'd call it "neat" :P
Jun 29 23:31:55 <SpeedEvil> No, not that I recall.
Jun 29 23:31:59 <LuitvD> ambilight on the neo... where would you like to get the signal? :P
Jun 29 23:32:02 * SpeedEvil is thinking of the PSP display.
Jun 29 23:32:13 <LuitvD> and where would you like to process that signal :)
Jun 29 23:32:22 <Kero> thomasg_: full gamut LED(s) which actually use something outside of the colors of the rainbow, would be nice in any device.
Jun 29 23:33:20 <Kero> but to combine wih video-over-3G or some such thing? While holding the phone in your hand? not so sure...
Jun 29 23:33:41 <LuitvD> damn I hate being 17. got a boring desk job, because I'm not qualified or certified for anything better...
Jun 29 23:33:43 <thomasg_> Kero, but I guess ambilight is patented by philips, isn't it?
Jun 29 23:33:57 <thomasg_> LuitvD, the same for me
Jun 29 23:34:01 <cjb> LuitvD: you should try google summer of code.
Jun 29 23:34:08 <Kero> thomasg_: not as strongly as you'd expect :)
Jun 29 23:34:15 <LuitvD> cjb: I'm to fucking young for that
Jun 29 23:34:22 <LuitvD> (excuse me for the swearing)
Jun 29 23:34:24 <cjb> oh, is it university only?
Jun 29 23:34:34 <LuitvD> no. I'm 17
Jun 29 23:34:39 <LuitvD> that's the bloody problem 
Jun 29 23:34:43 <cjb> it's 18+?
Jun 29 23:34:48 <LuitvD> yes
Jun 29 23:34:51 <LuitvD> I guess...
Jun 29 23:34:54 <LuitvD> *checks again
Jun 29 23:35:21 <cjb> yeah
Jun 29 23:35:38 <cjb> next year, I guess.  you need to be 18 by April 9, 2007 for this year's.
Jun 29 23:35:57 <cjb> but you get a year to get good enough at coding to beat out the older geeks :)
Jun 29 23:36:23 <LuitvD> uhuh
Jun 29 23:36:34 <Kero> sure :)
Jun 29 23:36:36 <LuitvD> still sucks
Jun 29 23:36:47 <cjb> yeah.  I had a programming job when I was 17, but I guess I was lucky.
Jun 29 23:37:02 <cjb> (also, it was a kinda crappy programming job, looking back.)
Jun 29 23:37:13 <LuitvD> I was the one mentioning GSoC for OpenMoko :)
Jun 29 23:37:27 <LuitvD> s/one/first/
Jun 29 23:37:27 <apt> LuitvD meant: I was the first mentioning GSoC for OpenMoko :)
Jun 29 23:38:32 <Kero> s*cks
Jun 29 23:38:50 <LuitvD> socks? :)
Jun 29 23:38:52 <Kero> LuitvD: so what'll you do next year? university?
Jun 29 23:39:04 <LuitvD> nah, 'Hogeschool' 
Jun 29 23:39:17 <LuitvD> it's college I guess..
Jun 29 23:39:44 <cjb> university == college, to most people
Jun 29 23:40:24 <LuitvD> well, I mean I'm going for a Bachelor studies at first. I don't know about a Master grade yet
Jun 29 23:40:27 <LuitvD> haven't decided
Jun 29 23:40:31 <Kero> which subject?
Jun 29 23:40:48 <LuitvD> Electronic Engineering and -Design
Jun 29 23:40:49 <cjb> yeah; to most people, university is where you do the bachelor study.
Jun 29 23:41:07 <LuitvD> I'll do my bachelor in College
Jun 29 23:42:13 <LuitvD> because the local Univ doesn't do Electronics
Jun 29 23:42:24 <LuitvD> strangely
Jun 29 23:42:30 <Kero> then go to another univ :)
Jun 29 23:42:46 <cjb> it's good to get away from home sometimes.
Jun 29 23:42:46 <LuitvD> nah, I can't afford to live on my own
Jun 29 23:42:52 <cjb> ah
Jun 29 23:42:59 <LuitvD> need money to do that
Jun 29 23:43:10 <LuitvD> that's why I've got a desk job right now
Jun 29 23:43:16 <cjb> well, anyone would give you a student loan.
Jun 29 23:43:41 <Kero> either way, after a few years, resist a nice job and finish as much study as you can. It's hard to return to study afterwards.
Jun 29 23:43:42 <LuitvD> and above all, I just like it here
Jun 29 23:43:49 <cjb> so it's not impossible.  but nothing wrong with saving money, unless it means that you end up unhappy with your college.
Jun 29 23:44:02 <Kero> 'coz if it's anything like the past years, you'll be in high demand :)
Jun 29 23:44:40 <LuitvD> yeah, IT and Electronic Engineering is getting low lately
Jun 29 23:45:02 <LuitvD> here in the Netherlands that is
Jun 29 23:45:13 <Kero> but, most important: have fun!
Jun 29 23:45:19 <LuitvD> oh I will :P
Jun 29 23:45:30 <LuitvD> I'm having fun already
Jun 29 23:45:36 <Kero> great :)
Jun 29 23:46:01 <LuitvD> making money for my studies is quite fun too, actually...
Jun 29 23:46:04 <LuitvD> :P
Jun 29 23:47:05 <Kero> hehe
Jun 29 23:47:07 <LuitvD> being done with high school, and finally having something touchable, something lasting, that proves I'm smart enaugh to go on by myself is quite satisfactory already :)
Jun 29 23:47:19 <CIA-17> openmoko: 03alphaone * r2351 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: * Fix openmoko-footer version while integrating the taskmenu
Jun 29 23:47:35 <Kero> indeed it is!
Jun 29 23:47:35 <LuitvD> (even though my english still sucks... should have paid more attention in english class...)
Jun 29 23:48:16 <LuitvD> love the desk job I have right now... but not for long term assignment :P
Jun 29 23:48:30 <LuitvD> it's for 2 or 3 weeks, and that's just perfect :)
Jun 29 23:48:37 <Jeroen> LuitvD: do you have a VWO or HAVO diploma?
Jun 29 23:48:43 <LuitvD> VWO :)
Jun 29 23:48:59 <Jeroen> then I really advise you to go to university instead of HBO
Jun 29 23:49:01 <LuitvD> since yesterday
Jun 29 23:49:06 <Jeroen> congrats
Jun 29 23:49:10 <LuitvD> Jeroen: why would I do that?
Jun 29 23:49:13 <Kero> congrats!
Jun 29 23:49:16 <LuitvD> heheh
Jun 29 23:49:25 <LuitvD> thanks all
Jun 29 23:49:43 <LuitvD> (I already knew I'd get it for 2 weeks)
Jun 29 23:50:10 <LuitvD> (had to wait those 2 weeks just to get that piece of paper)
Jun 29 23:50:38 <Jeroen> because you will probably be working beneath the level of you what you actually can do at HBO
Jun 29 23:51:06 <LuitvD> Jeroen: not really... It's not that I got VWO with flying colors...
Jun 29 23:51:24 <Jeroen> which subjects were the problems?
Jun 29 23:51:37 <LuitvD> and I know many people who do Univ for 1 year, and then fall back on HBO
Jun 29 23:51:48 <LuitvD> Jeroen: err, paying attention? :)
Jun 29 23:52:05 <Jeroen> I'm just dropping into the middle of the chat :)
Jun 29 23:52:08 <LuitvD> Jeroen: that, and plain learning
Jun 29 23:52:24 <LuitvD> Jeroen: that wasn't a question, it was a statement
Jun 29 23:52:30 <LuitvD> my problem is paying attention
Jun 29 23:52:39 <Kero> paying attention will improve a lot when you do the thiing you chose&like to do
Jun 29 23:52:46 <LuitvD> yeah
Jun 29 23:52:49 <Jeroen> oh, I thought you already mentioned it before...
Jun 29 23:52:55 <LuitvD> heheh
Jun 29 23:53:11 <LuitvD> I can see why you're confused
Jun 29 23:53:35 <LuitvD> my choice of words could have been better :)
Jun 29 23:54:08 <LuitvD> Kero: exactly, but my main interest is doing things I like, not learning about them
Jun 29 23:54:31 <LuitvD> and that's the main reason why I'll do HBO first (College)
Jun 29 23:54:40 <Jeroen> anyway, I just wanted to say that "not having the money" and "just liking it here" are not that good reasons for choosing HBO instead of univ
Jun 29 23:54:54 <LuitvD> Univ has too much focus on theory
Jun 29 23:55:29 <LuitvD> I like the more practical approach of things (ofcourse, with the needed technical background)
Jun 29 23:56:00 <Jeroen> EE is most of the time quite practical
Jun 29 23:56:21 <Jeroen> even at the university level
Jun 29 23:56:31 <LuitvD> Jeroen: well, It's hard to explain, but I like the local College a lot. (and I've read it's one of the best locations in the netherlands to do EE)
Jun 29 23:57:14 <LuitvD> Jeroen: I can get a Masters degree in any University after my College study, and I really like that thought...
Jun 29 23:57:35 <LuitvD> for my HBO really is the right choise
Jun 29 23:57:40 <LuitvD> choice*
Jun 29 23:57:55 <Jeroen> it will probably take 2 years longer to do however
Jun 29 23:58:01 <LuitvD> even though I did VWO, it's best for me to do HBO
Jun 29 23:58:06 <Jeroen> ok
Jun 29 23:58:16 <LuitvD> Jeroen: not really... Bachelor phase in Univ is 4 years too right?
Jun 29 23:58:21 <Jeroen> nope
Jun 29 23:58:29 <LuitvD> is it 3 years?
Jun 29 23:58:32 <Jeroen> yes
Jun 29 23:58:41 <Kero> assuming you discussed it with the "dekaan"(?) from highschool
Jun 29 23:58:49 <LuitvD> well, then HBO > Master is 1 year more then Univ
Jun 29 23:59:22 <LuitvD> Kero: our dean is useless...
Jun 29 23:59:23 <Jeroen> abd you will probably have to a schakeljaar (whatever that is in English) before you can do the university master
Jun 29 23:59:31 <Jeroen> +do
Jun 29 23:59:46 <LuitvD> Jeroen: not really. HBO really is a Bachelor grade now
Jun 29 23:59:52 <Jeroen> in theory, yes
Jun 30 00:00:04 <LuitvD> so you can start off with a Master right after that... 
Jun 30 00:00:04 <LuitvD> in theory :P
Jun 30 00:00:29 <Jeroen> in practice, things don't always fit together, at least that's what I'm seeing
Jun 30 00:00:40 <LuitvD> and I've made it through VWO, so the Univ can't really say I don't belong there, after I've gone through HBO
Jun 30 00:00:42 * Kero has to agree with Jeroen there :
Jun 30 00:00:59 <LuitvD> and so what, then it is 2 years longer
Jun 30 00:01:04 <LuitvD> I like doing EE
Jun 30 00:01:22 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 30 00:01:27 <Kero> hehe
Jun 30 00:02:09 <LuitvD> I think it's strange how many people just get going on Univ blindly these days
Jun 30 00:02:15 <Kero> no reason to hurry (except perhaps funding, lousy governmental rules)
Jun 30 00:02:17 <LuitvD> most of 'em drop out
Jun 30 00:02:40 <LuitvD> Kero: funding is quite good IMHO :P
Jun 30 00:02:50 <Jeroen> of course it doesn't matter that much, even if you go to univ you might take just as long to get your master degree :-P
Jun 30 00:03:08 <LuitvD> my 'collegegeld' is completely funded by my 'studiefinanciering' 
Jun 30 00:03:22 <Jeroen> of course
Jun 30 00:03:32 <Jeroen> but then you also need money to drink beer and things :-)
Jun 30 00:03:43 <Kero> yup. I'd just say, if you have the capabilities to go to univ, get that MSc at some point. You're unlikely to get the chance again after you get a fulltiem job.
Jun 30 00:03:51 <LuitvD> I pay my collegefees in 6 terms, and those terms are completely evened out (financially) by the financing
Jun 30 00:04:36 <LuitvD> All I need to take care of is getting the materials in september, and after that, every euro I get when working, can be used for beer
Jun 30 00:05:28 <Kero> hehe :)
Jun 30 00:05:44 <Kero> ok, I'm off to bed
Jun 30 00:05:48 <LuitvD> Jeroen: really, with a starting budget of <500 euros I can get through it all without any trouble
Jun 30 00:05:57 <LuitvD> 'night Kero
Jun 30 00:06:01 <Jeroen> true
Jun 30 00:06:03 <LuitvD> I think I should be going too...
Jun 30 00:06:35 <LuitvD> it's weekend, but that doen't mean I don't want to be alive tomorrowmorning
Jun 30 00:06:50 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 30 00:07:08 <Jeroen> it's not that when you still live at your parents' place
Jun 30 00:07:12 <Jeroen> that bad
Jun 30 00:07:18 * Jeroen should go to bed too
Jun 30 00:07:25 <LuitvD> it's not bad at all
Jun 30 00:07:59 <LuitvD> I get food and shelter from the parents, and money from the govt.
Jun 30 00:08:13 <Jeroen> it's worse when you live on your own, you only get roughly 200 euro/month more which won't cover the cost
Jun 30 00:08:21 <LuitvD> yeah
Jun 30 00:08:38 <LuitvD> that's why I'm glad Utrecht's EE facilities are nice :)
Jun 30 00:08:41 <Jeroen> but then it would be better to just borrow more money if you need it
Jun 30 00:09:33 <LuitvD> you'd still need a job with full financing
Jun 30 00:10:04 <Jeroen> depends on what you get from your parents and how much your parents earn
Jun 30 00:10:27 <Jeroen> the total amount is more than 700 euro/month IIRC
Jun 30 00:10:35 * LuitvD checks
Jun 30 00:11:13 <Jeroen> but that's only when your parents don't earn a lot of money
Jun 30 00:11:31 <LuitvD> max. 741
Jun 30 00:11:38 <Jeroen> else they assume your parents give you some money for studying
Jun 30 00:12:01 <LuitvD> well, my added funding is only 30 euro below max
Jun 30 00:12:26 <LuitvD> (they expect my dad to finance me for 31 euro a month)
Jun 30 00:12:50 <LuitvD> (he'll do thrice that amount, by paying my healthcare insurance)
Jun 30 00:13:14 <LuitvD> so I'm not really missing out on that...
Jun 30 00:13:35 <LuitvD> I'll get 266 euro / month starting october this year
Jun 30 00:13:36 <Jeroen> anyway, just try to make the right decision, because it will have a big impact on your life
Jun 30 00:13:50 <LuitvD> I have made the right decision
Jun 30 00:13:53 <LuitvD> I'm certain
Jun 30 00:14:06 <LuitvD> I've really thought this over for a long time
Jun 30 00:14:23 <LuitvD> long long time... about a year or two :P
Jun 30 00:14:33 <Jeroen> personally I've never regretted going to univ
Jun 30 00:14:50 <LuitvD> how well did you get through VWO then?
Jun 30 00:15:11 <Jeroen> not with that much trouble
Jun 30 00:15:34 <Jeroen> most of the trouble was with languages (dutch, french, german)
Jun 30 00:15:47 <Jeroen> that doesn't really matter that much
Jun 30 00:15:49 <LuitvD> I think that of my graduation year, I'm the one who did the least...
Jun 30 00:16:20 <LuitvD> and my exams kicked my marks down
Jun 30 00:16:53 <Jeroen> I probably also did the least, or at least was in the group who did the least
Jun 30 00:17:03 <LuitvD> had a 7 on chem, phys and math, and in the end it was a 5 for math, and 6 for phys and chem
Jun 30 00:17:18 <Jeroen> and you've to work harder in univ :-)
Jun 30 00:17:21 <LuitvD> all because of the exams
Jun 30 00:17:40 <LuitvD> at least you'll have to work on something interesting :P
Jun 30 00:18:07 <Jeroen> true, but if your habit is to not make any homework, start learning the week before an exam, etc
Jun 30 00:18:27 <Jeroen> it's hard to get rid of that, at least it is for me
Jun 30 00:18:36 <LuitvD> I can't "learn" 
Jun 30 00:18:48 <LuitvD> I can 'get' things, or I don't 'get' them
Jun 30 00:19:04 <LuitvD> for me it's to understand, or not to understand
Jun 30 00:19:42 <LuitvD> (or have something in my passive memory because of repetitive use/occurance)
Jun 30 00:20:17 <Jeroen> making exercises is a very important way to 'get' things
Jun 30 00:20:23 <LuitvD> yeah
Jun 30 00:20:27 <LuitvD> that's how I learn
Jun 30 00:20:39 <LuitvD> I can't get my book one week before a test, and start learning it
Jun 30 00:21:02 <LuitvD> I just attend to classes, listen to what the teacher has to say, and I have it in my system
Jun 30 00:21:38 <LuitvD> making exercises on stuff I don't get yet
Jun 30 00:21:53 <LuitvD> just to see the logic behind it all
Jun 30 00:22:06 <Jeroen> that's how everybody does it :-)
Jun 30 00:22:12 <LuitvD> well, not really :P
Jun 30 00:22:49 <LuitvD> some people can memorize complete dictionaries, and some can visualize complex systems in their head
Jun 30 00:23:02 <LuitvD> (if you can do both, you're just extraordinary)
Jun 30 00:23:39 <LuitvD> I can only think logically, systematically
Jun 30 00:23:39 <Jeroen> anyway
Jun 30 00:23:43 <LuitvD> I'm really going to bed now :P
Jun 30 00:23:47 <LuitvD> damn, it's late
Jun 30 00:23:53 <Jeroen> it's time to go to bed :)
Jun 30 00:24:09 <Jeroen> good night
Jun 30 00:24:35 <LuitvD> 'night
Jun 30 00:24:50 <LuitvD> (it WAS time to go to bed)
Jun 30 00:24:55 <LuitvD> (now it's just late :P )
Jun 30 00:25:16 <CIA-17> openmoko: 03alphaone * r2352 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-footer/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
Jun 30 00:25:16 <CIA-17> openmoko: 2007-06-30 Daniel Willmann <daniel@totalueberwachung.de>
Jun 30 00:25:16 <CIA-17> openmoko:  * src/Makefile.am, src/callbacks.c (footer_leftbutton_clicked),
Jun 30 00:25:16 <CIA-17> openmoko:  src/callbacks.h, src/main.c(main), src/main.h
Jun 30 00:25:16 <CIA-17> openmoko:  * src/taskmenu.{c,h}: Added.
Jun 30 00:25:20 <CIA-17> openmoko:  Add first version of the taskmenu and integrate it into the footer
Jun 30 00:25:22 <CIA-17> openmoko:  The taskmenu doesn't actually do anything yet - it just displays
Jun 30 00:26:56 <dcordes> I'm here to support you guys on that dark day in mobile phone history :)
Jun 30 00:27:46 <thomasg_> the day after the iphone? :)
Jun 30 00:27:53 <dcordes> yes
Jun 30 00:29:57 <alphaone> It's dark indeed and I guess I should go to bed before it gets light again
Jun 30 00:30:05 <alphaone> night everyone
Jun 30 00:33:44 <SpeedEvil> Night.
Jun 30 00:33:49 <zecke> alphaone: night
Jun 30 00:37:43 <thomasg_> hm, for a guy without the least knowledge about programming it's damn hard to write in C -.-
Jun 30 00:41:11 <Basheri> :D
Jun 30 00:43:18 <cjb> thomasg_: yes, C is an awful first language.
Jun 30 00:54:00 <Ycros> heh
Jun 30 00:57:25 <SpeedEvil> IMO, coming to C from assembler makes it easier.
Jun 30 00:57:34 <SpeedEvil> That may just be me though.
Jun 30 01:02:17 <thomasg_> well, maybe I simply shouldn't start C with a gui-toolkit :)
Jun 30 01:02:30 <thomasg_> makes it even harder, imho
Jun 30 01:03:22 <ewon> my first language was spectrum BASIC
Jun 30 01:03:30 <ewon> good times
Jun 30 01:04:14 * SpeedEvil started on the ZX81
Jun 30 01:04:26 <SpeedEvil> It made the spectrum keyboard seem good!
Jun 30 01:07:09 <ewon> heh :)
Jun 30 01:07:25 <ewon> what do kids do these days?
Jun 30 01:07:39 <ewon> it's not like every xbox 360 comes with a BASIC interpreter :(
Jun 30 01:09:36 <thomasg_> not even win xp "Professional" pc's come with any kind of compiler/interpreter
Jun 30 01:12:36 <strtok> you can download visual C++ 2005 for free
Jun 30 01:13:09 * ewon as 360devkits in work, they cost more than my car :)
Jun 30 01:13:11 <ewon> *has
Jun 30 01:13:51 <balrog-kun> i think most windows versions come with some kind of script interpreter, don't remember what it was called (something like wscript or something)
Jun 30 01:14:09 <balrog-kun> older versions (dos) had qbasic and "debug.com"
Jun 30 01:14:18 <ewon> qbasic was good
Jun 30 01:14:27 <balrog-kun> i hated the editor :)
Jun 30 01:14:35 <ewon> especially the "pro" version that you could make real .exes with
Jun 30 01:14:49 <ewon> the SOUND command was hilarious
Jun 30 01:15:00 <balrog-kun> .exes from basic? that's sick :p
Jun 30 01:15:13 <ewon> 12 pcs in a lab, all screeching out 12khz, making people's fillings vibrate
Jun 30 01:18:11 * SpeedEvil ponders if 120DPI is enough.
Jun 30 01:18:15 <SpeedEvil> (PSP LCD)
Jun 30 01:23:31 <Dvalin> gimmegimme
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jun 30 02:59:57 2007