**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 05 02:59:56 2007 Jul 05 03:05:39 http://i0005.photobucket.com/albums/0005/icanhascheezburger/2007/6/12/1/128261114448593750lolcatalignr.jpg Jul 05 03:49:20 alphaone: you are my hero =) I'll test it when I get home Jul 05 03:56:54 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Optical_Character_Recognition]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] Jul 05 06:26:39 Have anyone been able to build a qemu flash image lately? Jul 05 06:27:12 I just manage to get the now classic "U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up." from make flash-qemu-local. Jul 05 06:32:49 morning Jul 05 06:56:29 * aloril wonder where this date comes "OpenMoko expects many applications to be available when the Neo1973 becomes available later this year (target release date is November);" http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070703.WBcyberia20070703161759/WBStory/WBcyberia Jul 05 07:15:49 morning Jul 05 07:16:22 Good Day Jul 05 07:58:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Eric]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] Jul 05 08:05:55 heya Jul 05 08:09:33 good morning Jul 05 08:32:59 so is minimo going to be the official web browser? Jul 05 08:36:11 iniduoh: Or some webkit based one Jul 05 08:42:27 counter Jul 05 08:42:27 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 4 days 03:17:28 (4.137±1.0 days) (1676;245) Jul 05 09:10:53 (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger Re: Openmoko ads now on youtube Jul 05 09:12:18 moo Jul 05 09:13:02 baaa Jul 05 09:16:01 :D Jul 05 09:54:37 http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=223 Jul 05 09:54:44 now can i have that for switzerland, please Jul 05 09:57:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973/es]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Wish_List]] Jul 05 10:10:24 buz, yeah, that's a wow right there Jul 05 10:10:27 Finland, please :] Jul 05 10:11:19 OSM already works pretty well in Turku and Helsinki area. Jul 05 10:12:06 There are some smaller roads missing, but there are also more details than in official maps. Jul 05 10:15:46 Helsinki center yes, Helsinki area not that much; I do intend to help out of course come my Neo Jul 05 10:16:13 I demand whole finland! :D Jul 05 10:17:09 unfortunately we live in a world where you're not in a position to make that demand Jul 05 10:18:02 How do you know Jul 05 10:18:43 I don't, I made a reasonable assumption on your demanding capabilities Jul 05 10:18:54 Basheri might well be the president of finland. Jul 05 10:19:23 Basheri seems to be male, though, if his ircname is to be trusted Jul 05 10:19:37 I'm undercover Jul 05 10:19:49 Naturally. Jul 05 10:22:08 Neo1939 - Finland Winter Edition. Jul 05 10:23:01 I hate winter =( Jul 05 10:23:27 'On the internet, nobody knows you are God'. Jul 05 10:23:28 as there seems to be finns here; any idea about the shipment of neo to .fi? Jul 05 10:23:36 SpeedEvil: :DDD Jul 05 10:23:44 drear|laptop: is .fi in the EU, I forget. Jul 05 10:23:51 SpeedEvil, sure. Jul 05 10:24:08 Should be pretty much the same as any other EU country then. Jul 05 10:24:09 SpeedEvil, i was reading about possible shipment from the eu? Jul 05 10:24:23 SpeedEvil, ok. good to hear. Jul 05 10:24:24 drear|laptop: that's basically not been sorted out. Jul 05 10:24:43 drear|laptop: it's quite likely they are all simplky being shipped individually from .hk Jul 05 10:24:47 or .tw Jul 05 10:24:57 :O Jul 05 10:24:57 * aloril suspects shipping from EU is later time than 2007-07-09 Jul 05 10:25:00 'On the internet, Google is god'. Jul 05 10:25:05 Probably. Jul 05 10:28:53 Google is always watching over you. Jul 05 10:29:37 You don't have to use google. Jul 05 10:30:35 And i don't care if google is watching over me :P Jul 05 10:31:43 * SpeedEvil ponders a google 'logo of the day', with the O's as a pair of eyes looking down through a square hole cut in a ceiling. Jul 05 10:32:16 hehe :P Jul 05 11:00:45 got new record 3 days ago: 288 nicks at 2007-07-02 (previous one was 283 nicks at 2007-03-07) Jul 05 11:14:31 SpeedEvil, isn't that "Ceiling cat is watching you masturbate' ? Jul 05 11:23:31 http://macrochan.org/search.py?tag=Animals%3ACats%3ACeilingCat Jul 05 11:29:32 hr hr Jul 05 11:39:08 SpeedEvil: http://zip.4chan.org/g/src/1183635532101.jpg Jul 05 11:39:45 4chan =S Jul 05 11:58:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch]] Jul 05 11:59:56 counter Jul 05 11:59:56 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 23:59:59 (4.000±1.0 days) (1677;245) Jul 05 12:24:18 tick tock tick tock Jul 05 12:24:27 boom Jul 05 12:24:29 Ever onward runs the clock. Jul 05 12:25:32 or there's a crocodile near by Jul 05 12:25:54 errm Jul 05 12:47:52 hi all, does anyone know if shipping from within europe will be possible from monday on? Jul 05 12:47:53 alech: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 05 12:48:48 alech: we don't know about 2007-07-09, but guess is directly from Taiwan or China only Jul 05 12:49:16 Seems likely for me too, since they only have a few phones Jul 05 12:49:17 OK, good to know ... Jul 05 12:49:39 does anyone know if they're going to stagger purchasing on the 9th? Jul 05 12:49:57 depending on where you're at in the world(timezones, becoming the 9th, all of that) Jul 05 12:51:16 i don't think so Jul 05 12:51:30 * aloril suspects that at some point openmoko.com changes and you can start ordering Jul 05 12:51:33 so it'll be based on whenever the 9th is in taiwan? Jul 05 12:52:00 I'm quite sure that the ordering starts at the same time everywhere Jul 05 12:52:00 more like when they are able to open it (hopefully what you said ;-) Jul 05 12:52:20 mm... ok, good to know Jul 05 12:52:23 counter Jul 05 12:52:23 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 23:07:31 (3.964±1.0 days) (1678;245) Jul 05 12:52:24 wont that be the 8h then ? Jul 05 12:52:57 above covers most of earth (except 2 early hours) Jul 05 12:53:29 taiwan in +7 on GMT Jul 05 12:53:35 no idea about time: subscribe to announce list, wait here and/or watch openmoko.com Jul 05 12:53:37 is Jul 05 12:53:47 * ScaredyCat slaps aloril Jul 05 12:54:20 20:54 at Taipei now Jul 05 12:54:43 13:54 uk Jul 05 12:55:19 so, the 9th in taiwan is the 8th here.... for a bit Jul 05 12:55:25 7hrs Jul 05 12:55:32 +7+summertime -> +8 UTC Jul 05 12:56:01 I did say 'gmt; Jul 05 12:56:08 ;) Jul 05 12:56:15 GMT <3 Jul 05 13:02:37 * aloril bets they are busy, so late Taiwan time is more likely than early Jul 05 13:14:53 Would a patch to openmoko-dialer making it work better without dbus be accepted? (my desktop has no dbus) Jul 05 13:16:24 Elrond: What desktop do you use? Jul 05 13:18:11 no dbus?!?!? Jul 05 13:20:52 Elrond: dialer is dbus application and will be Jul 05 13:24:08 hrw - It doesn't have many dbus dependencies. :-) Jul 05 13:24:36 CM, summatusmentis - Yeah, and I'm living fine without dbus on it. :-) Jul 05 13:24:45 lol Jul 05 13:25:31 i am god Jul 05 13:26:22 Placid - What drugs do you utilize? Jul 05 13:26:38 and are they any good? Jul 05 13:26:57 A cocktail actually Jul 05 13:27:06 Elrond: Most of the IPC will be dbus so I don't think removing dbus from the dialer will be a good idea Jul 05 13:27:07 Alcohol, LSD and speed Jul 05 13:27:16 speed/coke Jul 05 13:27:24 hence the delusions of grandeur Jul 05 13:27:40 coupled with Alcohol Jul 05 13:27:47 alphaone - It's a quite simple patch probably. I wont remoe it. Just "let it work _somewhat_ without dbus." Jul 05 13:27:49 makes for one confused king! Jul 05 13:28:06 i can't see how to bring the keyboard up when using openmoko under qemu Jul 05 13:28:22 i.e. i loaded the terminal but couldn't type anything :| Jul 05 13:28:26 Placid - white are next to the menu thing at the top. Jul 05 13:28:47 oooh Jul 05 13:28:53 Elrond: Well, submit a bug and we'll see. I actually like dbus on my desktop and laptop. Jul 05 13:28:53 so i 'write' in there? Jul 05 13:29:02 i thought that was a graphics bug :D Jul 05 13:29:06 s/like/started liking/ Jul 05 13:29:06 alphaone meant: Elrond: Well, submit a bug and we'll see. I actually started liking dbus on my desktop and laptop. Jul 05 13:29:14 btw, is it wise that the terminal logs in as root? Jul 05 13:29:42 Placid: all in openmoko works as root now Jul 05 13:30:00 Placid: Everything logs in as root and no, it's not wise :-) Jul 05 13:30:33 Why root? Doesn't sound like a good idea :O Jul 05 13:31:00 Is it something that'll be changed before mass-market release? Jul 05 13:31:25 Placid - I hope it will be fixed till mass market. Jul 05 13:31:43 ... you can brick (as in: you need the debug board) the ting with one single command as root. Jul 05 13:31:44 ouch Jul 05 13:32:01 It's not that user management needs to be reimplemented in openmoko :-) Jul 05 13:32:13 you know damn well that some dickhead'll `rm -rf /` because their mate said to do so Jul 05 13:32:29 that won't brick it, though Jul 05 13:32:32 Placid - "rm -rf /" isn't that command. Jul 05 13:32:41 Not to the point where you need the debug board Jul 05 13:32:42 i wasn't saying it was the command Jul 05 13:32:54 Ahh. okay, yeah. Jul 05 13:33:05 was just saying that someone's bound to do it :) Jul 05 13:33:12 Right. Jul 05 13:33:26 But it probably still is bad Jul 05 13:33:52 There's a fix for this specific problem possible in the kernel though. Jul 05 13:33:59 perhaps a user could be created as part of the calibration/setup Jul 05 13:34:01 "Enter your name" Jul 05 13:34:03 etc Jul 05 13:34:14 AFAIK. Jul 05 13:34:40 Placid - well, a default user would already be way better. Jul 05 13:34:55 sure Jul 05 13:35:20 makes things 'personalised' though ;) Jul 05 13:35:26 not that it really matters Jul 05 13:35:44 Well, one step after the other. Jul 05 13:35:53 indeed Jul 05 13:36:02 wasn't a criticism, just an observation. Jul 05 13:36:11 :-) Jul 05 13:36:32 There are many issues there. And nearly all people are aware of them. Jul 05 13:37:12 :) Jul 05 13:38:15 alphaone - Do you know offhead, if gsmd-connection is also via dbus? Jul 05 13:38:29 * qopi is very glad this project exists and is thriving :) Jul 05 13:38:51 Elrond: gsmd is via a socket Jul 05 13:39:20 alphaone - Well, so dialer for very basic things doesn't need dbus. :-) Jul 05 13:39:43 Elrond: But the gsm applet running on openmoko will forward information via dbus Jul 05 13:40:28 * qopi adds OpenMoko to http://del.icio.us/tag/100links Jul 05 13:41:37 alphaone - I said "very basic operation". This is like "Recommends" under Debian: "If you don't have this recommendation, you should expect a lot of problems". Jul 05 13:42:16 Elrond: You should use libmokogsm for that Jul 05 13:43:32 alphaone - hehe. :-) I'll file a bug with patch and see, what happens. It's not a big patch, I think. It wont make the dialer worse than it is. Probably even better, because I plan to clean up some things to make my idea possible. Jul 05 13:44:01 Elrond: :-) Jul 05 13:45:09 It's like cleanup + 3 lines. :-) Jul 05 13:45:51 currently it segfaults just, if dbus is not there. Jul 05 13:46:34 ah, that's not nice. Jul 05 13:47:46 Yeah, I think the matchbox-panel-2 just segfaults if DISPLAY is not set. I wanted to fix that for some time now... Jul 05 13:48:05 hehe. :-) Jul 05 13:57:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Wish_List]] Jul 05 14:31:00 Have people discovered the OpenMoko "PR" at youtube? Bumped into them by accident: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=openmoko&p=r Jul 05 14:31:17 ja Jul 05 14:31:23 discussed on the community mailinglist Jul 05 14:31:31 (damn that list's got a lot of traffic...) Jul 05 14:32:26 yep, haven't check it today, yet Jul 05 14:32:48 miki: nope, thanks for the tip =) Jul 05 14:35:10 they are mostly cool, some even gives you that warm fuzzy feeling ;) Jul 05 14:35:33 heh Jul 05 14:36:57 btw I'm a zope/python developer and have been using debian/ubuntu for the last 4 years - will I be able to get up to speed quite quickly on OpenMoko? Jul 05 14:37:30 yeap Jul 05 14:37:36 there are python bindings available for quite a few libs Jul 05 14:38:38 great. I'm also curious how easy it will be to build openmoko on the neo Jul 05 14:38:49 looking through the tuts doesn't appear to difficult Jul 05 14:40:25 You mean actually using the neo for compiling? Jul 05 14:40:36 It will take some times Jul 05 14:41:10 SpeedEvil: sorry, no I meant getting the OM system up-and-running, installing/managing my apps/etc Jul 05 14:41:16 Ah. Jul 05 14:41:20 I think i need to downgrade to feisty cause due to gutsy's dependency problems, i can't install monotone =( Jul 05 14:41:34 It's not that bad reportedly - though I haven't done it. Jul 05 14:43:06 k Jul 05 14:43:22 Basheri: *downgrade* to Feisty - wow you are at the bleeding edge ;-) Jul 05 14:44:21 I unfortunately upgraded to gutsy the very same that feisty was released Jul 05 14:45:33 hi all Jul 05 14:46:24 I did the same thing with edgy --> feisty and it all worked well, but i'm having quite a few problems with gutsy =( Jul 05 14:50:47 Basheri: easier to just use a single binary from monotone website Jul 05 14:51:39 it depends on some libs that are obsoleted in the gutsy repositories Jul 05 14:51:48 And it can't use the newer ones Jul 05 14:51:58 so the binary doesn't help Jul 05 14:52:06 i even tried compiling Jul 05 14:52:38 why does the neo have two speakers on the back anyways? Jul 05 14:56:44 stereo Jul 05 14:56:59 <3 Jul 05 14:57:05 For low values of stereo Jul 05 14:57:52 I expect an alarm clock that's not as annoying as my current one Jul 05 14:58:01 maybe some good music =) Jul 05 14:59:21 openmoko: 03laforge * r2360 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/s3c_mci.patch: * fix 'unfinished read' problems due to missing max_blk_count/max_blk_size (Roman Moravcik) Jul 05 14:59:36 Basheri i have some very mind-fracturing ringtones avail... so no problem there.. (need to check licenses through) Jul 05 15:00:02 =) Jul 05 15:00:37 I hope it's possible to add my own music as an alarm sound Jul 05 15:01:17 besides that i can recommend a mp3 of johnny cash... ;) Jul 05 15:01:37 Basheri of course that will be possible Jul 05 15:01:56 yay Jul 05 15:02:03 As expected Jul 05 15:02:19 ;) Jul 05 15:03:19 * Stephmw sings the "webform job applications without a save are written by fucktards" song for his missus.... Jul 05 15:04:11 hi Jul 05 15:04:24 yo Jul 05 15:04:26 Stephmw well... write a mail ;) Jul 05 15:04:35 roh: most places you can't Jul 05 15:04:43 * duffyd reminisces over the last scene in Braveheart where William Wallace shouts 'freedom'! :-) Jul 05 15:05:03 roh: quite a few big places refuse applications not submitted via their webform Jul 05 15:05:05 Stephmw then i'd ask myself if i want to work there at all Jul 05 15:05:27 roh: she's a grad, so that kind of discrimination really isn't an option Jul 05 15:05:38 roh: it'd be another matter for me Jul 05 15:05:47 mmmh Jul 05 15:05:49 If it's some it firm, you must hack the webform to proove your skills Jul 05 15:05:54 Basheri: basically at the moment for almost all software questions, the answer is "no, unless you write it or convince someone to write it' - there is very little software there. Jul 05 15:05:56 sweet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsVFG7jHI8 :) Jul 05 15:06:11 roh: I have told Accenture to fuck off in the past Jul 05 15:06:20 * SpeedEvil remembers hacking webforms to be able to order stuff, and ending up with a delivery of 63 printers. Jul 05 15:06:25 Oops. Jul 05 15:06:28 haha Jul 05 15:06:33 SpeedEvil: Yep, i'm aware of that. =) Jul 05 15:07:01 The 'confirm' page said error, but it had in facto ordered them. Jul 05 15:07:20 ah yes... or pressing back also resubmits Jul 05 15:07:53 *sigh* ... don't remember me.. happend to me more than once with RT Jul 05 15:08:28 roh: Is the debug port pinout for GTA01 published? I want to start making stuff for it. Jul 05 15:08:35 so if you write a mail to us and get it more than once... ;) Jul 05 15:09:18 SpeedEvil isn't it in the wiki? if not, i can tell you. we want to have that open documented Jul 05 15:09:25 No, it's not. Jul 05 15:09:50 I think there was for P0 - but there was notation that it was changing Jul 05 15:10:02 uhm... ok.. i'll try to find out how to chop it out of the schems Jul 05 15:10:59 yeah - Changes from GTA01Bv3 Jul 05 15:10:59 1. Fix all Errata items from GTA01Bv3 Jul 05 15:11:00 2. Add I2C, SPI and one irq and wakeup capable GPIO pin to debug port plus have test pads for all these signals (for soldering wires directly on the pcb) Jul 05 15:11:02 SpeedEvil from P0 to P1 (gta01bv03 to gta01bv04) we removed address and data bus from the connector. too much noise and capacity on these pins Jul 05 15:11:38 I donI don't suppose you connected D+ and +0 from the external USB there too? Jul 05 15:11:45 D- rather Jul 05 15:11:46 nope Jul 05 15:11:55 Oh well. Jul 05 15:12:04 Is there battery/vcc? Jul 05 15:12:11 but spi, a irq cap. gpio , i2c should surfice for gta01 ;) Jul 05 15:12:29 mompls.. i'll get you a nice shot which you then can work in the wiki Jul 05 15:12:41 K Jul 05 15:15:44 SpeedEvil usb is on the fpc for BT Jul 05 15:16:05 SpeedEvil so.. if absolutely neccessary.. available there Jul 05 15:16:32 Hmm. Suppose so. Could do the internal hub thing... Jul 05 15:16:47 Or if feeling silly - the SPI-USB thing Jul 05 15:21:51 SpeedEvil mail? Jul 05 15:22:22 openmoko@mauve.plus.com Jul 05 15:22:26 Or DCC works too Jul 05 15:23:24 Thanks! Jul 05 15:23:30 ah.. put it on people Jul 05 15:23:32 http://people.openmoko.org/roh/Debugport_P1.png Jul 05 15:24:05 but remember.. its only for gta01bv4 Jul 05 15:27:07 k Jul 05 15:27:38 roh - So better s/P1/gta01bv4/ ;-) Jul 05 15:27:51 roh: what's the connector part number? Jul 05 15:27:58 SpeedEvil uuh.. dunno Jul 05 15:28:37 Elrond from my point of view i do not like 'P0 P1 Pwhatever' much since its too unprecise Jul 05 15:28:56 roh - You named the file. ;o) Jul 05 15:29:13 Elrond so better just use gta01bv4.. because thats a exact revision... Jul 05 15:29:17 Elrond yes.. my bad Jul 05 15:29:34 roh - just looking for the dimensions that a flex cable needs to be to mate Jul 05 15:30:11 so.. better Jul 05 15:30:25 roh - But anyway: Great, that you opened the debug port specs! :-)) Jul 05 15:31:02 SpeedEvil if you want something internal on it.. just let someone who knows what he does use the testpins (i2c) Jul 05 15:32:18 i'll do that... i want this inside my phone http://nvlsi.no/index.cfm?obj=product&act=display&pro=89 Jul 05 15:35:32 roh - looks fun. Available in ones? Jul 05 15:36:31 dunno.. but a friend uses them in a not that big project... http://www.openbeacon.org/start.0.html Jul 05 15:38:22 I want zigbee, or something similar. Jul 05 15:38:27 That might be a good match Jul 05 15:38:36 they sold them for about 10euros a piece Jul 05 15:38:48 zigbee is dead (luckyly Jul 05 15:38:59 Why is zigbee dead? Jul 05 15:40:01 Just fyi, there are many people in San Antonio, TX drooling over the openmoko project.... Jul 05 15:40:24 pigpen: cool :-) Jul 05 15:40:34 there are a lot people around the world drooling over the openmoko project :) Jul 05 15:40:42 I bet. Jul 05 15:41:01 some devs , some techies, some users. Jul 05 15:41:09 my wife could care less. :) Jul 05 15:41:12 a) ive not seen any devices supporting it ever and b) they have different frequencys for different countrys since they couldn't agree on one only which makes devices more complicated and thus expensive. which also makes it senseless for amateur projects mostly Jul 05 15:41:29 pigpen nice to hear Jul 05 15:42:46 SpeedEvil bluetooth was to complicated for light switches, and zigbee never agreed on simple enough standards so it failed... i want my light to be switchable with my phone also.. so i need to intervene myself :) Jul 05 15:44:06 Zigbee chips are available with complete microcontroller and RF solutions in a 6*6mm BGA for $3 Jul 05 15:44:15 And stack. Jul 05 15:44:32 still.. do you know of any products? Jul 05 15:44:46 That's one problem. Jul 05 15:44:49 :) Jul 05 15:44:57 get a zigbee unit for your pc, and use bluetooth to talk to the pc? Jul 05 15:45:01 Zigbee searching on ebay tends to bring up one evab board. Jul 05 15:45:03 that's how i'd control my x10 Jul 05 15:45:04 eval Jul 05 15:45:04 i can solder the nordic chip by hand.. thats why i like it Jul 05 15:45:26 And zigbee searching on froogle brings up several products Jul 05 15:45:32 but mostly books Jul 05 15:46:02 roh: So - no power available on the debug port then? Oh well. Jul 05 15:48:32 SpeedEvil unfortunately no Jul 05 15:49:25 but since most selfbuilt electronics is neither too small or low power a extra powersource might be a good idea Jul 05 15:49:55 Umm - no. My primary interest is stuff that runs entirely off the phone, and uses micro-milliamps. Jul 05 15:49:57 SpeedEvil what do you wanna solder? Jul 05 15:50:05 Solder? Jul 05 15:50:18 Sorry - in what context? Jul 05 15:50:34 or build. whats your intent? Jul 05 15:50:38 Oh Jul 05 15:50:43 'stuff' :) Jul 05 15:50:49 Many and various ideas. Jul 05 15:50:50 :) Jul 05 15:51:10 How useful are "technical testers" to this project. Just courious, as I have a few extra tmobile accounts that I am not using at the moment. Jul 05 15:51:12 From a proper docking connector, to accelerometers, magnetometers, Jul 05 15:51:15 well on the debug port you can just hold one of the gpios high and get your power from that, i'm sure the s3c can power at least 1mA on i/o :) Jul 05 15:52:01 hehe Jul 05 15:52:27 Ideally I'd have liked both 3.3V, and raw battery on there. Jul 05 15:53:03 you could take out one of the speakers Jul 05 15:53:05 Guess I'm either going to also have to plug into the bluetooth connector - which is annoying, or the battery. Jul 05 15:53:14 i'm sure there's an exposed 3.3V contact on the board just for this Jul 05 15:53:21 I don't want a contact. Jul 05 15:53:33 I want somewhere I can plug stuff into for selling to users. Jul 05 15:53:37 oh Jul 05 15:53:39 heh Jul 05 15:54:03 Soldering cuts the market dramatically, and offering to fit doesn't really help, as customs comes in in most cases. Jul 05 15:55:02 roh: and capacitive joystick/buttons Jul 05 15:56:02 heh.. be aware of the insane amount of work and money any case mods cost Jul 05 15:56:49 bye all Jul 05 15:57:06 besides that the debug connector is very near the corner of the board, so plugging it in with a closed case is at least questionable. Jul 05 15:57:59 I'm assuming a flex PCB, going from 40-6 connectors almost immediately. Jul 05 15:58:28 4 days remaining :) Jul 05 15:58:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Hardware]] Jul 05 15:59:05 did somebody try to run GdkLauncher already? Jul 05 15:59:25 my personal opinion is that if you want to have some kind of sellable, just plug electronics you'll need to sell replacement case parts to have a) the space for the cable and b) for the additional pcb. Jul 05 16:00:53 If I have to do that, it's not happening. Jul 05 16:00:54 <_diego__> counter Jul 05 16:00:55 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 19:59:00 (3.833±1.0 days) (1679;246) Jul 05 16:02:05 hand soldered electronics with really small paint covered copper wires could fit in the big case part, sideways of the battery holder.. but it will be tricky to fiddle it in at all Jul 05 16:02:27 i was impressed there is space left at all ;) Jul 05 16:02:40 i hate trying to build portable electronics Jul 05 16:02:57 my soldering skills offend $deity Jul 05 16:03:06 i'm glad sean et al are doing it for me :) Jul 05 16:03:36 I'm assuming flex-PCB all the way through. Jul 05 16:04:11 speed, is there a cheap way to fab those? Jul 05 16:04:25 as i understand it, i don't think i can even solder on them Jul 05 16:04:27 As I see it, I can go from debug port, out through GPS hole to back of battery case. Jul 05 16:04:28 galexande the problem is always size... i have access to a simple cnc mill, and still structures <0.1mm are nearly impossible to create. soldering such stuff is possible always as long its not bga Jul 05 16:04:50 solder bga in a toaster oven (hah hah) Jul 05 16:04:53 then from back of battery case to void Jul 05 16:05:03 As to production - we'll see, I have ideas. Jul 05 16:12:55 counter Jul 05 16:12:56 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 19:46:59 (3.824±1.0 days) (1680;246) Jul 05 16:12:56 counter Jul 05 16:12:57 (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 19:46:58 (3.824±1.0 days) (1681;246) Jul 05 16:13:01 :D :D D: Jul 05 16:15:06 Anyone with a debug board: I'd appreciate A) Dimension of the connector width, with a vernier caliper. Photograph as close up as you can of the connector. Jul 05 16:17:21 roh: was there ever anything external that used any of the uncommitted pins on the debug connector? Jul 05 16:17:30 now uncommitted Jul 05 16:22:00 well, no vernier caliper here Jul 05 16:32:51 SpeedEvil: try http://hentges.net/tmp/photos/Neo1973/ (images 341 to 343) Jul 05 16:34:25 Oops. I meant the actual bit that plugs into the neo :) Jul 05 16:34:29 * SpeedEvil should be clearer. Jul 05 16:38:24 ah, prepaidgsm.net has given me hope Jul 05 16:38:36 the openmoko video 'ads' are great! Jul 05 16:39:22 the playlist is here for those who dont read the community list: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=472DE700A3CC70A4 Jul 05 16:39:27 how am i supposed to pay an ordered neo1973? Jul 05 16:39:31 credit card? Jul 05 16:39:50 XXLT - Probably. Jul 05 16:39:51 xxlt, we'll all find out on jul 9th i hope :) Jul 05 16:40:23 hopefully Jul 05 16:41:31 hahaha these ads are great, i've gotta get on that mailing list Jul 05 16:41:46 rofl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxsVFG7jHI8&feature=PlayList&p=472DE700A3CC70A4&index=9 Jul 05 16:41:50 that one rocks Jul 05 16:45:53 the We're the Phone Company is really funny although not openmoko related. Jul 05 16:46:10 (Openmoko 11) Jul 05 16:46:30 ooo i've never had to chose a hostname for a phone before Jul 05 16:46:42 :) Jul 05 16:48:07 SpeedEvil: I've added a few more pics Jul 05 16:48:12 i still don't understand gprs...it's basically ppp over a' cell modem, right? Jul 05 16:48:24 galexande: logically, yes Jul 05 16:48:56 galexande - Yeah, I still haven't changed the default hostname on "my" neo. ;o) Jul 05 16:49:53 so what's on the other end of the ppp connection, your telco? Jul 05 16:49:56 or a phone number? Jul 05 16:50:06 the telco Jul 05 16:50:21 CoreDump|home: pics? Jul 05 16:50:26 can it be always-on? Jul 05 16:50:55 seemant: of the debug board Jul 05 16:50:58 ah Jul 05 16:51:17 CoreDump|home: so like how usable is your neo Jul 05 16:51:32 CoreDump|home: err - the plastic flex-cable bit - the bit that actually plugs in to the neo. Or is it identical to the connecotr on the board? Jul 05 16:51:33 currently not at all Jul 05 16:51:51 SpeedEvil: identical to the connector Jul 05 16:51:55 galexande: yes - it can be always on Jul 05 16:52:01 CoreDump|home: thanks! Jul 05 16:52:06 np Jul 05 16:53:12 CoreDump|home: how come? Jul 05 16:53:28 seemant: the software is not really usable yet Jul 05 16:53:34 CoreDump|home: oh Jul 05 16:53:36 huh Jul 05 16:53:43 CoreDump|home: can you at least make calls wiffit? Jul 05 16:54:00 I believe so, yes =) Jul 05 16:54:33 The image currently installed has a kerel bug preventing it but the bug has since been fixed Jul 05 16:54:40 CoreDump|home: and like how do you update the software? ssh in via the wifi? Jul 05 16:54:51 no wifi Jul 05 16:54:54 USB Jul 05 16:55:04 oh ah Jul 05 16:55:09 USB networking or BlueTooth Jul 05 16:55:56 coredump, who'd you kill to get one? :) Jul 05 16:56:11 heh Jul 05 16:56:46 it is a developer version Jul 05 16:57:01 CoreDump|home: so like what else is usable? you can hook up bluetooth headphone dealies? Jul 05 16:57:40 seemant: manually, yeah. But this stuff does not work out of the box yet Jul 05 16:57:46 ah ok Jul 05 17:00:31 SpeedEvil there was once stuff connected to the now empty lines... on debugboard v1 which was produced in _very_ low amounts and soon replaced by the debugboard v2 Jul 05 17:00:46 awesome, at&t's gophone can give you unlimited data and 200 minutes/mo for only $50/mo Jul 05 17:01:14 roh: K - just wondering if in principle adding new stuff to that connector would break stuff Jul 05 17:02:02 SpeedEvil adding stuff would not break anything. but i do not see that happen atm, and i hope after gta03 we can have a external dock connector Jul 05 17:02:08 eh after gta02 Jul 05 17:03:12 Dock connector doesn't really solve the internal hardware thing at all though. Jul 05 17:03:34 well a dock connector would at least give you externally-accessible 3.3V, right? Jul 05 17:03:50 is anyone actively developing finger splash? http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/ Jul 05 17:03:50 Yes - but wiring that back inside would be annoying Jul 05 17:03:50 moribus: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 05 17:04:11 oh Jul 05 17:04:35 SpeedEvil i think there will ne no space left at all when the case changes Jul 05 17:04:45 moribus: afaik someone did do a simple demo of it Jul 05 17:04:51 There is also the expansion back idea Jul 05 17:04:53 so no need for a internal connector. Jul 05 17:05:07 which does need an internal connector Jul 05 17:05:37 a phone with no space left internal and everything on the dock conn Jul 05 17:06:33 mori, this doesn't answer your question but maybe you'll like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDDXEk0dwzU which i will certainly build for openmoko in the coming months Jul 05 17:06:36 roh: make it easy to replace part of case with expansion back? Jul 05 17:07:24 aloril: dunno. thats something which is not decided yet and now nobody has time to think about. we want to finish gta01/02 first Jul 05 17:07:52 trying to build on my ubuntu 7.04 box, got this error: http://pastebin.ca/604591 Jul 05 17:07:55 yeah, but once you have time to think about future cases ... Jul 05 17:08:03 so no worries.. there are such ideas and they will be evaluated keeping hacking and expandability in mind Jul 05 17:08:48 moribus is your /bin/sh symlinked to dash? Jul 05 17:09:19 roh: knassar@wiggly:~/Projects/OpenMoko/build$ type /bin/sh Jul 05 17:09:20 /bin/sh is /bin/sh Jul 05 17:09:21 ah.. no.. it failed to fetch the tarball Jul 05 17:09:43 moribus: ls -al /bin/sh Jul 05 17:09:56 damn Jul 05 17:10:05 you got me Jul 05 17:10:23 if it is, the perl-native will fail to build or generate bogus output Jul 05 17:12:50 roh: dash removed, still can't fetch tarball Jul 05 17:15:17 uhm.. Jul 05 17:15:35 seems that you need to get that tarball from another place Jul 05 17:16:42 what is trying to fetch it? Jul 05 17:16:45 grep finds nothing Jul 05 17:16:58 I was just gonna modify the .bb, but I can't find it Jul 05 17:17:13 according to pastebin: ftp://sleepycat1.inetu.net/releases/db-3.2.9.tar.gz Jul 05 17:17:32 right Jul 05 17:17:40 I cannot connect to sleepycat1 Jul 05 17:17:56 but, I can't figure out where to "correct" this Jul 05 17:17:58 yup, so you need to find another place for that tarball ;-) Jul 05 17:18:22 why do you need db 3.2.9? Jul 05 17:18:23 the url is in openembedded/packages/db/db3_3.2.9.bb Jul 05 17:18:37 argh. didn't try find. Jul 05 17:18:59 it gets inherited from there by db3-native_3.2.9.bb Jul 05 17:19:54 thx for the help\ Jul 05 17:24:55 roh: Got any hint for the "U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up." from make flash-qemu-local. Jul 05 17:25:41 I've managed to build it 4 times, but not the last 2 days Jul 05 17:27:21 CoreDump|home: that seems to conflict with the PNG roh posted - 5 more pins. The cable will plug in to the neo or the debug board either way round? Jul 05 17:27:50 hmm good one Jul 05 17:27:50 CM oeh.. i didn't have this problem recently.. do you have a log? Jul 05 17:28:24 I don't think so no Jul 05 17:35:42 hi Jul 05 17:38:36 hi Jul 05 17:39:52 roh: those berkely db files have moved since oracle bought sleepycat Jul 05 17:40:04 roh: http://pastebin.ca/604637 Jul 05 17:40:39 roh: I'm thinking of removing everything and just start from scratch again, but last time it took 7.5h to build everything Jul 05 17:40:54 http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/berkeley-db/db/index.html Jul 05 17:41:08 moribus oh... can you please open a bugreport then, assign it to mickey and add the new location there? Jul 05 17:41:20 bugs.openmoko.org? Jul 05 17:41:39 got it Jul 05 17:41:44 bugzilla.openmoko.org Jul 05 17:41:45 will do Jul 05 17:41:47 ttyal Jul 05 17:41:59 thanks Jul 05 17:42:17 i would change it, but cannot commit to that part of the repo ;) Jul 05 17:50:36 he name mickey is not a valid username. Either you misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla account. Jul 05 17:50:51 roh: what is the real user? or should I use default? Jul 05 17:52:02 roh: what is the real username for micky? or should I just use default? Jul 05 17:52:14 mickey@vanille-media.de afaik. if it does not work use default Jul 05 17:52:38 .. Jul 05 17:53:08 roh: have any of my messages come through? gaim keeps crashing.... Jul 05 17:53:37 moribus: several recently from you Jul 05 17:53:48 haha Jul 05 17:53:49 moribus: roh: what is the real username for micky? ... Jul 05 17:53:55 exactly Jul 05 17:53:56 thx Jul 05 17:53:58 ? Jul 05 17:54:04 vanille-media.de Jul 05 17:54:16 argh Jul 05 17:54:18 mickey@vanille-media.de Jul 05 17:54:29 hi Jul 05 17:54:57 * * OM Bug 629 has been created by karim.nassar(AT)acm.org Jul 05 17:54:58 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=629 Jul 05 17:54:58 * * Berkely db recipe URL bad Jul 05 17:54:59 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=629 Jul 05 17:55:04 haha Jul 05 17:55:15 ttyl everyone. gotta go to work now Jul 05 17:55:16 moribus tnx Jul 05 17:55:19 o/ Jul 05 17:58:34 (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: EFL related work http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/05/efl-related-work/ Jul 05 17:58:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Hardware/de]] [[Advertising]] [[Wishlist:Games]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] Jul 05 18:00:33 moribus: did you try with one of the three "static" servers (download-west.oracle.com, download-east.oracle.com, download-uk.oracle.com)? Jul 05 18:02:27 yay Jul 05 18:02:48 I downgraded to feisty Jul 05 18:04:45 * CoreDump|home is installing a WinXP VM image ATM.....fun.... Jul 05 18:29:01 roh: I suspect 10-50% of buyers might buy advanced kit, while most don't actually need it Jul 05 18:29:23 for example I saw some person here saying something like 5 basic, 5 advanced for their developers Jul 05 18:30:15 unless all of those 5 are doing u-boot work or kernel work that needs console it doesn't make sense: one debug board should be enough to unbrick devices ;-) Jul 05 18:30:57 greetings, is there a wiki page that has all of the anticipated/launch applications provided by the OS? Jul 05 18:30:58 wyatt_earp: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 05 18:31:46 hmm... that changes and also you can install many more Jul 05 18:31:58 the applications page wyatt_earp Jul 05 18:33:10 and http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages Jul 05 18:33:26 cool, thanks. i've been surfing through the dev projects hosting area and only saw a few listed in the planning and figured that wasn't enough :-) Jul 05 18:35:22 in general: many of programs you run on your Linux using distro ;-) Jul 05 18:37:08 ttp://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages Jul 05 18:37:12 (unless they demand too much memory, speed and/or screen size or assume i386 stuff (later case you need to port, former case optimize)) Jul 05 18:37:20 oops Jul 05 18:39:29 roh: what I pursue with above is that you might not have enough debug boards to fill advanced orders at start ;-) Jul 05 18:39:31 well, i was looking through and noticed the webbrowser hadn't been defined (at least according to the wiki) and was trying to see what it was going to be Jul 05 18:40:00 roh: also you might want to have some blurb about when you need advanced kit in ordering page Jul 05 18:41:13 wyatt_earp: most development seems to be for using webkit Jul 05 18:42:47 cool, that would provide a nice JS engine and everything. got what i needed to know, thanks all Jul 05 18:46:36 aloril we'll see Jul 05 19:01:32 T-Mobile supports VOIP: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/05/technology/circuits/05pogue.html?ei=5090&en=39e3cc8226651f90&ex=1341288000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print Jul 05 19:02:53 aloril, alas, that wasn't what I hoped it would be. Jul 05 19:03:09 it would be nice if a carrier offered a data plan that was usable with VOIP software. :) Jul 05 19:03:34 yeah, a bit different, but still interesting news Jul 05 19:04:17 and if they open handover protocol then would achieve that too Jul 05 19:04:48 though they need to fix that "billing system isn’t smart enough to notice handoffs between Wi-Fi and cellular networks" Jul 05 19:04:57 apparently there is a way to use the $6 data plan that tmobile offers working w/ the neo Jul 05 19:06:21 IP over bluetooth is totally pedestrian, right? Jul 05 19:06:31 pedestrian? Jul 05 19:06:38 i.e., normal use of bluetooth Jul 05 19:06:46 rather than an insane hack Jul 05 19:07:07 yes Jul 05 19:07:11 thx :) Jul 05 19:08:31 hoi käptain pingu^^ Jul 05 19:14:58 pingu! Jul 05 19:15:11 naak naak Jul 05 19:17:11 ook Jul 05 19:19:28 summatus|PDA, why do you think that you'd need to do anything special ? Jul 05 19:26:32 waiting sucks Jul 05 19:26:41 code. ;) Jul 05 19:26:57 * juri_ takes some of her own medicine. QEMU ftw! Jul 05 19:27:05 wait wait wait Jul 05 19:27:19 sorry, this is far too nerdy a channel t possibly have a woman in it Jul 05 19:27:26 unless you're Val Henson ord Jul 05 19:27:30 s/ord/ors/ Jul 05 19:27:30 ewon meant: unless you're Val Henson ors Jul 05 19:27:30 roflmao Jul 05 19:27:41 * juri_ kicks ewon. Jul 05 19:27:50 apologies, a lame joke I know Jul 05 19:28:01 i'm just here for the phone. trust me, after i get two, i'm gone. :) Jul 05 19:28:08 * ewon met Val Henson once Jul 05 19:28:20 my, how she shot me down in flames. good times. Jul 05 19:28:22 you mean Jim :P Jul 05 19:28:42 heh :) Jul 05 19:29:09 hi Jul 05 19:29:17 on monday, I shall mostly be using F5 Jul 05 19:30:30 * ScaredyCat thinks there should be a limit, 1 per person.... Jul 05 19:30:38 since there's such a short supply Jul 05 19:30:46 that might make sense. Jul 05 19:30:51 i wonder why there isn't some romanticized cellphone phreaking rennaissance going on Jul 05 19:31:12 because the gsm module is closed :) Jul 05 19:31:13 are you really sure that sooo many people want the GTA01? Jul 05 19:31:20 i do i do i do Jul 05 19:31:29 drath, I think so.... Jul 05 19:31:31 * SpeedEvil does. Jul 05 19:31:37 * ewon will probably by one, depending on GSM coverage in Los Angeles / Vancouver Jul 05 19:31:41 I love my job. Jul 05 19:31:44 * SpeedEvil may be having money problems though - it depends. Jul 05 19:31:46 unfortunately, I think some 'users' will be buying tooo Jul 05 19:31:55 "we sending you to LA or Vancouver next month. We're not sure which yet" Jul 05 19:31:56 i want one so badly that i just passed the time reading an iphone review, smiling with glee at how shitty and limited its software is Jul 05 19:32:04 GSM module being open would in fact make it illegal to own in some countries. Jul 05 19:32:21 rightly so Jul 05 19:32:28 Indeed. Jul 05 19:32:35 and became excited to see on the OM mailing list "is IM app over data or SMS?" answered with "what IM app?" Jul 05 19:32:37 given gsm is TDM, you could do some serious fucking around Jul 05 19:32:37 GSM isn't designed to be DOS resistant. Jul 05 19:32:45 lol Jul 05 19:33:23 * aloril too, if even (30%-those_that_are_not_really_planning_to_buy_it_instantly) expressed interest in buying_interest_list its big number (we will see what ratio of that page and real order numbers will be .. interesting statistics) Jul 05 19:33:25 "you mother sucks cock in hell! this is *my* timeslice!" etc Jul 05 19:33:42 ! Jul 05 19:33:52 ewon: not to mention people doing phone-phone comms. Jul 05 19:34:01 SpeedEvil: indeed Jul 05 19:34:01 Which will _really_ screw up the network. Jul 05 19:34:10 I imagine it would become quite distressed Jul 05 19:34:24 * ScaredyCat becomes distressed Jul 05 19:34:30 When 60Ghz becomes practical, that sort of thing becomes possible. Jul 05 19:34:45 As the signal is absorbed mostly in a kilometer or so. Jul 05 19:35:05 nice Jul 05 19:35:07 i hope there are not too many people buying the gta01 expecting a product Jul 05 19:35:14 quite expensive encryption: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/technology/29cnd-encrypt.html?ex=1335499200&en=aa06d98a600afc6f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss Jul 05 19:35:16 i imagine a couple of them posting reviews could really give us a bad name Jul 05 19:35:28 There needs to be a _BIG_ page on the purchasing page that has to be read Jul 05 19:35:34 Yeah. Jul 05 19:35:36 * aloril would imagine order page making it clear (software status) Jul 05 19:35:45 and you need to type "this is not a functional phone" into a box Jul 05 19:35:46 Big words saying "DEVELOPER's PRERELEASE KIT" Jul 05 19:35:55 still no doubt some will not read it ;-) Jul 05 19:36:00 "the thought of this phone should give you a hard-on. If it doesn't, go buy an iPhone" Jul 05 19:36:35 errm... Jul 05 19:36:37 i took a hammer to my last smart phone because its dialer app was closed source and buggy Jul 05 19:36:44 * ScaredyCat steps away from ewon Jul 05 19:37:01 * galexande humps the microsd Jul 05 19:37:13 so tight!!! Jul 05 19:37:35 o0 Jul 05 19:37:39 the fact that you *can* hump it does't flatter you. Jul 05 19:37:43 lol Jul 05 19:37:48 ScaredyCat++ Jul 05 19:38:46 i'm all trepidated trying to decide if i will help complete the openmoko UI, or if I will just throw together something primitive Jul 05 19:39:50 Throwing together something primitive also helps. Jul 05 19:40:06 The more people can use the phone as well as dev on it... Jul 05 19:40:09 yes Jul 05 19:55:32 * arw hello to all people Jul 05 19:56:18 i've a question.. Jul 05 19:56:31 i was looking that: Jul 05 19:56:32 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone Jul 05 19:57:06 the feature say: wireless Jul 05 19:58:20 Neo Advanced has wireless? Jul 05 19:58:32 no Jul 05 19:58:41 arw, gta01 will have bluetooth and gsm, gta02 (to be released around november?) will also have 802.11b/g Jul 05 19:58:43 advanced is just a tool pack Jul 05 19:58:52 mmm Jul 05 19:59:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] Jul 05 20:00:00 ok Jul 05 20:00:30 novemberr... umm Jul 05 20:01:08 thak you galexande and Freed Jul 05 20:02:02 question: Jul 05 20:02:03 openmoko is totally open.. Jul 05 20:02:09 i mea.. open hardware too? Jul 05 20:02:22 arw, parts of the hardware are closed, but for the most part the open philosophy influences the hardware Jul 05 20:02:50 arw: more clear now? (edited [[IPhone]] page about wireless) Jul 05 20:03:15 like, there is a debug port with jtag ability built in, and unused i/o pins are exposed and documented in case you want to add something Jul 05 20:04:24 yes, Jul 05 20:04:31 aloril yes, :) Jul 05 20:05:15 galexande: if i want to know the schematic? Jul 05 20:05:45 arw, i don't know. at least parts of the board (like the gsm chipset) are covered by nda, so probably not complete schematics Jul 05 20:06:11 mmm Jul 05 20:06:27 arw: might happen (with exception of what is covered by NDA as galexande) Jul 05 20:06:44 ok, Jul 05 20:06:48 T-Mobile Announces WiFi Meshing Cellphone -- good idea? Jul 05 20:06:49 arw: but I don't know ..., just recall somebody saying something vaguely along those lines Jul 05 20:06:50 other question.. Jul 05 20:07:27 phed_, well sure, it's a good idea, but they're milking $10 per month for the privilege Jul 05 20:07:31 there provided by other co. Jul 05 20:07:48 ok, but could be a usefull info :) Jul 05 20:08:43 if i want to connect some device to communicate with gsm... Jul 05 20:08:45 (plus, wifi calls aren't something you want to be stuck with, but that's presumably not a problem with that phone) Jul 05 20:09:04 can ido? Jul 05 20:09:22 mjr: there is alredy here in fanal user hands (france) Jul 05 20:09:24 arw, what do you mean? Jul 05 20:09:28 *final Jul 05 20:09:59 immposible? Jul 05 20:09:59 maybe? Jul 05 20:10:01 crazy? :) Jul 05 20:10:02 Freed, "end user", btw Jul 05 20:10:26 arw, "what do you mean"? Jul 05 20:12:03 mjr: can i connect something to gsm interface ? Jul 05 20:12:06 arw: do you mean "use it to connect laptop to internet?" answer for that is yes Jul 05 20:12:29 arw, physically? I doubt that, but don't know. Jul 05 20:12:30 no Jul 05 20:12:42 well, easily, anyhow Jul 05 20:12:46 yes, physically Jul 05 20:12:57 arw: its seen as modem over UART using standard AT commands from OpenMoko side Jul 05 20:13:10 hack physically the device Jul 05 20:13:25 Can't do that. Jul 05 20:13:31 arw: you could relay that serial port Jul 05 20:13:41 arw, if you want just a gsm chipset without the phone, you can buy that at sparkfun... Jul 05 20:13:46 You can get the serial port - it's even exposed on the debug port. Jul 05 20:13:52 (over bluetooth, usb (and wifi in GTA02)) Jul 05 20:14:16 what is with the name "neo1973" anyways? Jul 05 20:14:20 SpeedEvil, ah, that's an interesting tidbit Jul 05 20:14:22 use the serial port is not usefull to do tha i want .. Jul 05 20:14:26 neo =new Jul 05 20:14:33 arw, what do you want to do? Jul 05 20:14:39 and 1973? Jul 05 20:14:40 and i nedd Jul 05 20:14:41 1973 = year of 1st mobile phone Jul 05 20:14:45 ah Jul 05 20:14:48 seriously? Jul 05 20:14:52 :( Jul 05 20:14:53 seriously. Jul 05 20:14:58 re-inventing the mobile phone Jul 05 20:15:08 galexande: i want the phone ... Jul 05 20:16:19 mjr: is a dream Jul 05 20:16:31 the gsm has 3 interfaces...an antenna, a UART (serial), and analog audio in/out, and on the neo you can control all 3 of those with software, sky's the limit Jul 05 20:17:00 (you could turn the neo into an auto-dialing recorded message telemarketing machine) Jul 05 20:17:07 1973 .. Jul 05 20:17:32 galexande, yeah, and yay to that! Jul 05 20:19:21 "Dr. Martin Cooper of Motorola, made the first US analogue mobile phone call on a larger prototype model in 1973." Jul 05 20:19:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973 Jul 05 20:19:53 galexande: can i talk with the gsm using its UART Jul 05 20:20:15 ? Jul 05 20:20:16 arw, yeah, the UART shows up as a /dev/ttysomething Jul 05 20:20:19 just like a regular modem Jul 05 20:20:43 It's also available on the debug connector. Jul 05 20:20:49 But that'd be silly Jul 05 20:21:10 You cannot use the modem for GSM hacking, or getting free calls. Jul 05 20:21:13 galexande:and physically? Jul 05 20:21:39 from wikipedia: Jul 05 20:21:40 April 3 - The first handheld cellular phone call made by Martin Cooper, who conceived the phone, in New York City Jul 05 20:21:41 (free calls othre than any free calls your network provider may supply) Jul 05 20:21:51 arw, yeah, the UART pins are routed to the debug connector Jul 05 20:22:02 i do not want free calls Jul 05 20:22:21 i do Jul 05 20:22:54 i want secure calls. Jul 05 20:23:06 arw: problem. Jul 05 20:23:21 arw: basically, we only get the GSM coded data Jul 05 20:23:30 and the modem does all the audio coding. Jul 05 20:23:35 arw, read the openmoko-community archives Jul 05 20:23:39 So - either you do GPRS - which has horrible delays. Jul 05 20:23:50 Or, you do direct data calls, which are often expensive. Jul 05 20:24:17 arw, you know, all this could've been a lot easier if you'd told us what you actually wanted instead of going on about access to the gsm chip connectors Jul 05 20:24:30 or you encode data over GSM voice calls using something like vocoder Jul 05 20:24:31 Or you do horrible transcoding from data - >fake voice - > GSM modem - > GSM network -> GSM modem -> voice -> voice-recogniser -> data Jul 05 20:24:45 This can actually get 1+kbits/second. Jul 05 20:24:56 voice -> data -> using vocoder into voice and send this to modem Jul 05 20:25:13 anyway, encrypted voice on gsm-data is the most sane solution currently on the table Jul 05 20:25:14 some time ago, i did a design and make a harwdware device to make secure calls on phones Jul 05 20:25:43 mjr: or 'push to talk' encrypted over GPRS and accept the 1 second or so delay Jul 05 20:25:46 and it isn't necessarily ridiculously priced; I was surprised how cheap it is around here nowadays Jul 05 20:25:50 arw: using data calls? Jul 05 20:25:56 SpeedEvil, oh yeah, that push to talk thing, sure Jul 05 20:26:00 now.. this is my intention to do with moko Jul 05 20:26:36 Basically, it's not possible other than with data calls at the moment to get it to work well. Jul 05 20:26:51 And data calls also have the sucky training period AIUI. Jul 05 20:26:59 training? Jul 05 20:27:28 From what I heard, a GSM data call requires a training period in call setup, you don't get an instant data channel. Jul 05 20:27:31 This may be incorrect. Jul 05 20:27:48 As I've never done it. Jul 05 20:27:50 osorry i forget the english word... Jul 05 20:28:49 training is synchronising both modems before they can send data between them Jul 05 20:28:58 pst.. Jul 05 20:29:02 PST Jul 05 20:29:06 using a conventional phone line Jul 05 20:29:14 using modem Jul 05 20:29:17 Oh - analog encryption? Jul 05 20:29:27 an using ogg codecs Jul 05 20:29:32 You can't do that. Jul 05 20:29:35 both Jul 05 20:29:40 analog an digital Jul 05 20:29:46 yes i do that Jul 05 20:29:50 Run an ordinary modem over GSM Jul 05 20:30:02 arw, you probably don't know what analog encryption is, by the way Jul 05 20:30:13 no... Jul 05 20:30:18 over a conventional line phone Jul 05 20:30:22 GSM throws away everything that does not sound like speech. Jul 05 20:30:29 and yeah, you can do vorbis/theora encrypted comms via gsm-data, as discussed, but not over a voice channel Jul 05 20:30:30 So you can't use normal modems. Jul 05 20:30:40 Over the voice channel Jul 05 20:31:33 the voice channel... always you send a data Jul 05 20:31:45 data, data, data Jul 05 20:31:58 i bet using the sound chip on the neo, you could do something crazy like invert the frequency spectrum within whatever band gsm does pass Jul 05 20:32:29 like say gsm passes 500hz-1500hz, you could run it through an fft, invert so 500hz becomes 1500hz, 600 becomes 1400, and so on, then ifft and playback. Jul 05 20:33:03 No, you can't. Jul 05 20:33:10 Because then that doesn't sound like speech. Jul 05 20:33:15 And it gets thrown away., Jul 05 20:33:17 oh i'm sure it'd be awful Jul 05 20:33:34 i want to sey a lot.. but my english is very bad.. sorry. Jul 05 20:33:41 doesn't gsm just send through a narrow band? *shrug* Jul 05 20:33:45 why? Jul 05 20:33:50 GSM is _very_ optimised for speech. Do anything that the human throat can't produce, and it's horrible. Jul 05 20:33:52 i mean, hold music gets through gsm, though it sounds funny Jul 05 20:33:55 sey/say Jul 05 20:34:01 arw, we already said such a thing would work over the data channel, with the mentioned caveats. Plus you don't need to hook up to the GSM chip to do it. Jul 05 20:34:09 SpeedEvil, not gsm is, the used codecs are Jul 05 20:34:14 yes. Jul 05 20:34:24 Which, as you can't pick the codec... Jul 05 20:34:33 (in this case) Jul 05 20:34:41 and the bandwidth of the codecs is as less as needed for beeing good enough for speech Jul 05 20:34:42 i bet the gsm module has a little DSP in it that you could reconfigure to do all this, if only itwere open :) Jul 05 20:34:51 galexande: it does. Jul 05 20:34:53 galexande, of course Jul 05 20:35:45 :-D Jul 05 20:35:51 galexande: it would also be illegal to sell or own in the UK in that case. Jul 05 20:36:16 it wouldn't exactly break my law-breaking cherry :) Jul 05 20:37:18 :) Jul 05 20:37:45 ;) Jul 05 20:41:23 is this correct?: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Do_I_need_Neo_Advanced.3F Jul 05 20:41:36 Probably - in what way? Jul 05 20:41:41 IIRC I added that Jul 05 20:42:17 Actually no - it's been altered. Jul 05 20:42:28 SpeedEvil: umm.. you added it to Neo1973 page Jul 05 20:42:48 Oh - that. Jul 05 20:42:50 yeah. Jul 05 20:43:07 It looks accurate - as far as I can see Jul 05 20:43:26 I would polish some of the grammer. Jul 05 20:43:33 i hope i'll be able to order the advanced add-on after i brick my base. :) Jul 05 20:44:14 I think it's safe to say that people will be offering unbricking services. Jul 05 20:44:33 i still haven't bricked my ipaq, so *cross fingers* Jul 05 20:44:51 main point is that flashing non working kernel/rootfs doesn't require debug board to unbrick Jul 05 20:45:06 yeah, uboot looks awesome, i just hope i don't ever have to reflash it. Jul 05 20:45:18 which I it seems many think is needed Jul 05 20:45:28 reflashing working versions isn't a problem. Jul 05 20:45:35 It's only if you screw up in some way Jul 05 20:46:20 * aloril remembers addition to u-boot flashing that checks whether its compatible, so no more flashing GTA01B_v03 u-boot into GTA01B_v04 u-boot in current firmware Jul 05 20:46:50 yeah, if i screw up flashing uboot i assume that's the painful thing Jul 05 20:46:59 right and that is mentioned there (tested image) Jul 05 20:47:08 yeah Jul 05 20:47:11 i'm talented though :) Jul 05 20:47:18 same as screwing up PC BIOS update ;-) Jul 05 20:47:33 when i screwed up my laptop bios, i pulled the chip and made a parallel port flasher Jul 05 20:47:34 well.. except with Neo1973 you can unbrick with debug board Jul 05 20:47:50 but i've flashed whatever compaq's uboot clone is...i've flashed that twice on my ipaq no problem so i'm optimistic. Jul 05 20:49:22 GTA02 will have 'some deep u-boot in some additional flash chip' IIRC, so you can recover even from flashing wrong u-boot Jul 05 20:49:51 but.. then you need to have debug-board anyway to develop password protection to that deep u-boot ;-) Jul 05 20:50:06 So is it neccessary to pay the $150 for the debug board? Jul 05 20:50:10 Oh, wow. The contacts applet looks really nice already. Jul 05 20:50:18 leto, only if you intend to do a bunch of device driver development, probably Jul 05 20:50:29 and even then probably not Jul 05 20:51:45 aloril: does that update look sane? It scans better for me. (grammer) Jul 05 20:51:53 If not, revert Jul 05 20:53:06 SpeedEvil: yes, better, thanks! Jul 05 20:53:08 LetoTo: i hope to do soething with the debug board :) Jul 05 20:53:19 heheheh... Jul 05 20:53:23 if i can.. Jul 05 20:53:27 I'm slightly tempted to get it - but I can't afford it. Jul 05 20:53:45 I want to work out some scheme to only allow signed DFU Jul 05 20:53:48 i hope to not need it :P Jul 05 20:54:02 still not sure if i will buy the non-wifi version :( Jul 05 20:54:16 * LetoTo forgot to submit the xoo package to Fedora :P Jul 05 20:54:22 faq is missing links to [[Applications]], http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages and some mention of webkit work being done by zecke and others Jul 05 20:55:57 ohh, i did submit it. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=236297 Jul 05 20:56:21 sorry, what is the meaning of : NDA Jul 05 20:56:36 non-disclosure agreement Jul 05 20:56:37 also " Q: Where can I find some type of tutorial for a 'Hello, world' on OpenMoko?" needs additional answer, but is there page in wiki about "how to cross compile and install that hello world program to Neo1973" ? Jul 05 20:57:39 mm... thank you Jul 05 21:01:36 "What applications I can install?" or something like that is actually quite multilevel question: 1) what is included 2) what is installable trivially using ipkg 3) what is available at openembedded.org 4) linux programs in general (some which might need porting) 5) port from elsewhere 6) do it yourself Jul 05 21:02:35 speed, DFU? Jul 05 21:02:52 Something Firmware Update Jul 05 21:02:55 over USB Jul 05 21:03:03 1 and 2 is quite small, 3) is pretty big, 4/5 is huge, 6 is unlimited Jul 05 21:03:18 openmoko uses ipkg? is it derived from familiar? Jul 05 21:03:31 Currently, anyone with a properly prepared laptop can with 30s with your neo boot their own OS, and copy all your stuff. Jul 05 21:03:45 speed, paranoid :) Jul 05 21:04:03 USB DFU (Universal Serial Bus Device Firmware Upgrade) Jul 05 21:05:08 SpeedEvil: rootfs and homefs on encrypted filesystem residing on SD Jul 05 21:06:45 aloril: and someone puts a virtualiser on your phone? Jul 05 21:07:42 speed, in order to install it, they'd have to reboot,which means you'dhave to enter your password again? Jul 05 21:07:53 i mean, i assume your encrypted filesystem will have a password Jul 05 21:08:39 It works if whenever you find your phone has rebooted unexpectedly, you reflash it completely. Jul 05 21:08:49 heh. Jul 05 21:08:53 hmm... how to differentiate between battery low and "new u-boot, etc.. have been flashed even if SD is untouched" Jul 05 21:08:56 but what about the compiler Jul 05 21:11:28 SpeedEvil: hmm.. how do you make sure you have reflashed it completely? Jul 05 21:11:42 JTAG Jul 05 21:11:45 well.. use debug board and devirginator Jul 05 21:11:47 hehe Jul 05 21:11:56 Otherwise someone can edit u-boot too Jul 05 21:12:06 yeah, that was my thought Jul 05 21:12:41 what if they edited the compiler that was used to build the compiler that was used to build the compiler that you used to write your jtag verification utility? Jul 05 21:12:42 I'd like to be able to lock mine so hard that I can't get into it with JTAG if I want. Jul 05 21:12:44 the moko (what a name ;) ) price , includes transpot? Jul 05 21:12:56 transport? Jul 05 21:12:58 arw: probably noyt Jul 05 21:13:13 requiring simple password for non standard boot should cover most cases though Jul 05 21:13:16 :( Jul 05 21:13:27 yeah Jul 05 21:13:32 Or DFU Jul 05 21:13:41 basically anything except default boot Jul 05 21:14:10 and default boot would ask password to further proceed into actual encrypted filesystem Jul 05 21:14:55 + offer bounty for returning it + GPS tracking should cover a lot cases Jul 05 21:14:57 There's a bug on the DFU open. Jul 05 21:15:24 That is on "optional DFU". Jul 05 21:17:43 the at comands tha has the gsm is fully implemented? Jul 05 21:18:05 or.. for few thinks? Jul 05 21:18:08 arw - You mean in the gsm tools/llibraries? No. Jul 05 21:19:10 mmm Jul 05 21:19:22 I want this "software? The answer is no, unless you get somenoe t odo it or do it yourself" from SpeedEvil as a macro. ;o) Jul 05 21:19:23 thank you Jul 05 21:19:39 arw - What are you interested in specifically? Jul 05 21:21:01 Elrond: talk with gsm chip Jul 05 21:22:16 here all people give some advices Jul 05 21:22:17 arw - It's connected to a standard serial port. You can run minicom, if you want. Jul 05 21:22:19 give me Jul 05 21:23:39 ;) Jul 05 21:25:09 thank you Elrond, SpeedEvil, mrj, aloril, galexande .., Jul 05 21:25:16 and all Jul 05 21:25:20 :) Jul 05 21:25:28 you are ver polite Jul 05 21:25:29 very Jul 05 21:25:45 :-) Jul 05 21:26:01 That's the top reason, why I like this project so much. Jul 05 21:27:02 arw: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AT_Commands and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM Jul 05 21:28:35 thaank... i'm looking Jul 05 21:28:37 :) Jul 05 21:29:00 it's a bummer there's no AT command to get it to feed you the transmitted bytes instead of decoding it to audio Jul 05 21:29:44 :( Jul 05 21:33:09 Yeah - well :/ Jul 05 21:33:47 As I understand it, that won't work very well. Jul 05 21:34:13 From what I understand, the voice is not carried encoded on the phone operators network, it's decoded. Jul 05 21:34:29 And may be renecoded with a different codec. Jul 05 21:35:30 :( Jul 05 21:35:57 This could be incorrect, it's from things I've read in the background while looking up other stuff. Jul 05 21:36:08 hmm.. why not use same codecs? simply 'decode' your encrypted stream into voice and let gsm encode it back Jul 05 21:36:47 Because there isn't error protection on the link. Jul 05 21:36:57 GSM and otehr codecs are designed to be error tollerant. Jul 05 21:37:25 Also - it's computationally intractable to do that. Jul 05 21:38:48 hmm... anyway, if true about decoding and encoding at network level, then: Jul 05 21:39:14 voice -> data -> voice -> data -> voice Jul 05 21:39:17 happens already Jul 05 21:39:27 someway.. someday 8-) Jul 05 21:39:27 yeah aloril, it's just a pain Jul 05 21:39:51 i mean with enough work you could develop a modem that works over (most) gsm cellphone connections Jul 05 21:39:59 voice->data-data->voice Jul 05 21:41:03 arw: what if you encode it using some new encoding that old recipient phone doesn't support? Jul 05 21:42:07 good question Jul 05 21:42:33 hi will this device play ogg files? Jul 05 21:42:33 BlackBsd: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 05 21:42:43 black, sure why not? Jul 05 21:42:46 the user have to use.. openmoko Jul 05 21:44:57 BlackBsd: yes, it can. There is currently no user friendly software to do so Jul 05 21:45:18 thats ok, im looking for a new phone. Jul 05 21:45:29 should i watit till the second model comes out in october?? Jul 05 21:45:35 aloril: arw: as I understand it, it can be the network operator that picks the codec. Jul 05 21:45:46 BlackBsd: If you want a working phone, yes. Jul 05 21:46:02 BlackBsd: if you want a portable linux box, with some prototype phone apps on it, no. Jul 05 21:46:21 oh i see.. Jul 05 21:46:36 SpeedEvil has the right Jul 05 21:47:07 i want my portable damn linux box Jul 05 21:47:10 why must i wait? Jul 05 21:47:14 the operator, can not understand the voice codec Jul 05 21:48:06 support firefox or some other browser? Jul 05 21:48:43 black, firefox will probably be too memory-hoggish Jul 05 21:49:14 support gnome, it is not? Jul 05 21:49:28 i just want a phone that will sync my contacts and such.. Jul 05 21:49:38 mabye even browse the web... Jul 05 21:49:50 It won't do that as yet Jul 05 21:49:50 there's a web browser based on webkit that is in development.. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Web_Browser Jul 05 21:49:54 It _might_ in a month. Jul 05 21:50:00 I'd actually disagree about FF. Jul 05 21:50:08 I currently run FF on a 128M machine Jul 05 21:50:19 It is however several times slower. Jul 05 21:50:23 webkit is what kde4 is going to use... Jul 05 21:50:31 But it will not be ideal. Jul 05 21:50:37 speed, idon't get you...what kind of ouptimistic thinks someone will hack your phone with jtag...or what kind of pessimist runs firefox in 128M? Jul 05 21:51:00 firefox sucks and firefox in 128M is torture Jul 05 21:51:05 :) Jul 05 21:51:05 arw, i don't know about "gnome" per se. it uses gtk, but the window manager is matchbox and i don't think it'll be running gnome's object exchange Jul 05 21:51:08 if i could, i would try to put ff on the phone.. Jul 05 21:51:14 galexande: I have FF open on my laptop with 20 open tabs. Jul 05 21:51:24 speed, you could try Jul 05 21:51:26 galexande: it has 128M. Jul 05 21:51:26 dbus? Jul 05 21:51:29 er, blackbsd, you could try Jul 05 21:51:41 galexande: works acceptably fast. Jul 05 21:52:16 minimo? Jul 05 21:52:23 is it going to work with cingular/att in the US? Jul 05 21:52:35 currently some guys are writing on GdkLauncher, what seems to be a proof-of-concept gdk/webkit-browser Jul 05 21:52:38 BlackBsd: it's a GSM phone. It'll work with any GSM network Jul 05 21:52:56 thanks, sorry for the lame questions.. Jul 05 21:53:17 i just took a iphone back because it was unfriendly... Jul 05 21:53:26 i didnt even record video Jul 05 21:53:39 and edge is slow... Jul 05 21:53:41 www.gnome.org/mobile/ Jul 05 21:53:56 Neo doesn't support EDGE Jul 05 21:53:58 Slower Jul 05 21:54:01 openmoko appears Jul 05 21:54:01 And no camera Jul 05 21:54:26 well, it runs gconfd, which is part of gnome i think Jul 05 21:54:37 and dbus-daemon. Jul 05 21:55:07 dbus != gnome Jul 05 21:55:22 is a camera in the ideas pipeline for future? Jul 05 21:55:33 Not on current roadmaps Jul 05 21:55:40 more to be announced soon Jul 05 21:55:42 BlackBsd, it is, but not for the neo Jul 05 21:55:52 maybe in a future device or a 3rd neo revision Jul 05 21:56:26 so there are going to be more than one phone type to choose from? Jul 05 21:56:28 arw, can you give some info on what you exactly want to do? Maybe some keywords or even links? Jul 05 21:56:40 BlackBsd: eventually is the plan. Jul 05 21:56:44 BlackBsd, of course Jul 05 21:57:17 the neo is more a concept- or prototype-phone for the future open phoneplattforms of FIC. will see what they will do :) Jul 05 21:57:33 hi there folks :D Jul 05 21:58:45 searching Jul 05 21:58:55 good morning/good evening/nice to see you Jul 05 21:59:34 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Advertising]] [[FAQ]] [[IPhone]] Jul 05 22:01:20 :D Jul 05 22:07:58 Kensan: some like that: Jul 05 22:07:58 http://www.secvoice.com.br/en/?gclid=CKHhvNy1kY0CFRCoIwodwG3Oqg Jul 05 22:07:59 better: Jul 05 22:07:59 http://www.tccsecure.com/secure-mobile.html Jul 05 22:11:50 Kensan: http://www.transcrypt.com/Pages/Telephony/tele.html Jul 05 22:11:56 http://www.mot.com/GSS/SSTG/ISSPD/Secure_Telecom/Gov_Sensitive_Prod.html Jul 05 22:15:27 SpeedEvil: I assume problem is something like this: voice1 encoded using some GSM codec to data1 and voice2 -"- data2; diff(voice1, voice2)=small, diff(data1, data2)=big Jul 05 22:16:16 Sorry - I'm too tired to read psuedocode. Jul 05 22:16:45 hi all Jul 05 22:16:48 however, maybe its possible to discover exact codec being used ... Jul 05 22:17:07 An additional problem is that there are errors in the middle. Jul 05 22:17:32 the errors are inaudible, but they change the data. Jul 05 22:18:58 SpeedEvil: just saying that maybe small difference in voice can cause big difference in encoded data? (I don't know) Jul 05 22:19:09 Perhaps. Jul 05 22:20:00 the codec is the point... Jul 05 22:20:04 the other problem is that reversing the GSM codec in software is somewhat similar to the halting problem Jul 05 22:20:26 reversing the GSM codec to determine what data was in fact transmitted Jul 05 22:20:32 it's made worse by the errors. Jul 05 22:23:40 It's akin to viterbi coding, but with a horrible encryptor type thing in the middle Jul 05 22:24:15 arw, AFAIK that is not feasable at the moment since the GSM-part is on a different chip and not directly accessible from the application processore which runs openmoko. Jul 05 22:25:12 arw: see http://people.openmoko.org/sean/files/openmokogsm.pdf Jul 05 22:25:49 ok.. Jul 05 22:26:33 as ever... all of you are very polite :) Jul 05 22:26:47 thanks Kensan & SpeedEvil Jul 05 22:29:53 arw: IMHO for encrypted calls there's no real solution since the gsm chip will not be opened up any time soon... it seems that encrypted voip (with it's drawbacks) is one way to go. Jul 05 22:30:25 gsm-data is a real solution, even if not completely optimal Jul 05 22:31:17 perhaps... my device could be insert between wm9784 codec an gsm chip Jul 05 22:31:41 arw, inserting any device into neo for encrypted comms would be silly Jul 05 22:31:57 what you can do, you can do in software Jul 05 22:32:08 sorry a question Jul 05 22:32:08 what is the meaning of IMHO & AFAIK Jul 05 22:32:31 In My Humble Opinion & As Far As I Know Jul 05 22:32:35 and what you can't, you can't do with an addon Jul 05 22:33:09 mjr, why would that be silly? Jul 05 22:33:17 Kensan, I already said it Jul 05 22:33:43 "what you can do, you can do in software, and what you can't, you can't do with an addon" Jul 05 22:34:15 mjr, what if you need to do the realtime encryption in hardware because the application processor does not have enough power? Jul 05 22:34:16 thak you Vegar Jul 05 22:34:35 then you're using a very inefficient cipher and should be shot Jul 05 22:37:08 1024 bits is a «good» pgp Jul 05 22:38:54 arw: you can't encode the audio Jul 05 22:39:05 arw: it's analog as it hits the GSM modem Jul 05 22:39:16 so if it's not voice-like, it's going to be massively corrupted. Jul 05 22:51:43 will the PIM have some standards that its uses for fomats and such? Jul 05 22:52:47 SpeedEvil: i'm looking : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Audio Jul 05 22:54:30 so this phone will have gps? so i can use google maps to find out where I am at and where im going?> Jul 05 22:54:48 or where is you wife :p Jul 05 22:54:54 perhaps Jul 05 22:54:58 s/you/your/ Jul 05 22:54:58 ynezz meant: or where is your wife :p Jul 05 22:54:59 BlackBsd: in principle, yes, with a suitable data plan Jul 05 22:55:00 :) Jul 05 22:55:01 nice... Jul 05 22:55:06 heheheh Jul 05 22:55:14 arw: you're looking - what? Jul 05 22:58:11 never mind Jul 05 22:58:16 i think, that you can modify voice with some filter and then use the filter on receiving side also Jul 05 22:58:27 ¿exist wm9784 data sheet? Jul 05 23:00:09 ynezz: yes. Jul 05 23:00:19 ynezz: both sides can go through the CPU - effectively. Jul 05 23:00:41 Leading to such interesting possibilities as per-caller voice pitch changing or loudness alteration. Jul 05 23:00:55 For those that don't speak loudly enough, or have annoyingly high voices. Jul 05 23:01:11 or you want to change a voice for some reason :p Jul 05 23:01:57 so i think, that you can apply some kind of scrambler-like filter Jul 05 23:02:10 it's not encryption, but also no pure voice Jul 05 23:02:37 better then nothing Jul 05 23:03:06 The problem is that GSM is designed to throw away everything that isn't like voice. Jul 05 23:03:15 the codecs typically used that is. Jul 05 23:03:20 You can scramble to sound like a cylon. You can't scramble to be uneavesdroppable. Jul 05 23:03:31 So if you transform the voice to a not-voice like signal, it won't go through Jul 05 23:03:36 yeah - you can do that Jul 05 23:04:27 Well. Jul 05 23:04:31 The old cylons. Jul 05 23:04:35 Not the new ones. Jul 05 23:05:06 Voice changing filters that work to make you sound like someone else well are moderately tricky Jul 05 23:05:11 well you can prerecord the talk, scramble, save, call, replay Jul 05 23:05:11 not bio-cylons, certainly Jul 05 23:05:26 receiver will record, descramble, play Jul 05 23:05:32 *sigh* Jul 05 23:05:54 sounds like push-to-talk. Yes, you can do that. With a data connection. Jul 05 23:06:28 why data? Jul 05 23:06:42 i'm talking about voice Jul 05 23:06:52 but would everyone PLEASE, for fuck's sake, stop talking about scrambling the voice channel when you don't have a FUCKIN' CLUE Jul 05 23:07:07 (I think I just lost my politeness points for today) Jul 05 23:07:27 we have /ignore in irc client for this Jul 05 23:07:54 I'd like to think that you may have something worthwhile to say in the future, in addition to this nonsense Jul 05 23:08:07 :p Jul 05 23:08:16 plus, it makes it harder to follow the channel to not see everyone's comments Jul 05 23:08:20 wm9784 is a chip? Jul 05 23:08:26 i talk crap all the time, you won't miss anything Jul 05 23:08:31 arw: it's the sound chip. Jul 05 23:08:50 i don't understand how the codec knows what I'm saying Jul 05 23:08:56 ynezz: it doesn't. Jul 05 23:09:06 ynezz: it's designed to code voice. Jul 05 23:09:10 plus, it hurts my head to even think that you're still continuing to be blissfully ignorant of everything we have put to you in plain words here and still think your "scrambling" will work Jul 05 23:09:12 and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Audio Jul 05 23:09:16 is the same? Jul 05 23:09:19 if I say "fuckin" or if i say "inckuf" Jul 05 23:09:23 ynezz: as a side-effect of this, it throws stuff that does not sound like voice away Jul 05 23:09:27 it same for the codec i think Jul 05 23:11:15 arw: is whjat the same? Jul 05 23:11:24 so if i record a phrase "openmoko rocks" and make it sound like "rkomoc penos" Jul 05 23:11:56 ynezz: yes - you can do that - but you then also need to send the data on how it's decrypted. Jul 05 23:11:56 * Stephmw peers in Jul 05 23:12:12 it will be preshared algo Jul 05 23:12:14 counter? Jul 05 23:12:14 "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: (last update 2007-07-02T06:19) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter 60% for P1 in 3 days 12:47:41 (3.533±1.0 days) (1682;246) Jul 05 23:12:32 does anyone know what the plan is for shipping costs/time/options? Jul 05 23:12:40 daMaestro: unreleased Jul 05 23:12:53 ok Jul 05 23:12:58 * Stephmw eyes ynezz Jul 05 23:13:04 i basically want to make sure i have a prepay account ready for when i get the device Jul 05 23:13:06 SpeedEvil: equals Jul 05 23:13:21 ynezz: do some serious research on cryptography, what you're proposing is standard stuff Jul 05 23:13:27 arw: what do you mean 'equals' ? Jul 05 23:13:42 verizon is getting the boot as soon as i can move to a gsm network, and i'm going prepay until the phase2 device is out Jul 05 23:13:59 Stephmw: i know, but I don't know if it's possible with gsm codecs :p Jul 05 23:14:06 i'll just most likely do tethered data over bluetooth or usb Jul 05 23:14:45 ynezz: data is data is data... gsm just codes based on what's expected for voice. Jul 05 23:15:34 but "rkomoc penos", so it should work Jul 05 23:15:45 it's still just data Jul 05 23:16:06 write up your proposal on the wiki and discuss it on the mailing list Jul 05 23:16:11 much easier Jul 05 23:16:24 i hope, that i could try it soon Jul 05 23:17:11 SpeedEvil: you say that wm9784 : it's the sound chip. Jul 05 23:17:13 and i ask Jul 05 23:17:14 is the same/equal chip from here: Jul 05 23:17:17 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#Audio Jul 05 23:19:27 arw: yes - I diddn't remember the number, but remembered it was WM - that chip has changed I believe during revisions Jul 05 23:19:32 arw: why? Jul 05 23:19:46 arw: probably the neo1973 page is the best one Jul 05 23:19:58 actually - that should be right Jul 05 23:20:17 Sorry - tired. Jul 05 23:21:16 SpeedEvil: not worry Jul 05 23:21:21 do not worry Jul 05 23:21:22 why? Jul 05 23:21:37 is a insteresting.... thing :) Jul 05 23:22:32 ok...see ya Jul 05 23:22:34 i'm going at home :) Jul 05 23:22:46 see you Jul 05 23:22:52 thank to all Jul 05 23:40:50 will alot of common linux apps run on the phone? Jul 05 23:40:54 such as top Jul 05 23:41:05 or some terminal app? Jul 05 23:41:12 "a lot" might Jul 05 23:41:33 is this debian based?? or something new Jul 05 23:41:48 i seen a reference tot apt-get install ... Jul 05 23:43:31 xterm will run on it, so all terminal apps will Jul 05 23:43:35 pretty much. Jul 05 23:43:41 Modulo not having a keyboard Jul 05 23:43:54 nice.. Jul 05 23:43:55 i plan on getting that little bluetooth keyboard Jul 05 23:44:01 i have a question -> its a touch screen ay? what happens when you put the phone to your ear? Jul 05 23:44:01 arnath: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 05 23:44:13 arnath: ear-touches Jul 05 23:44:18 ha! Jul 05 23:44:25 SpeedEvil: not sure what you mean? Jul 05 23:44:33 SpeedEvil: wiggle your ear for volume up or down Jul 05 23:44:36 you get touches registered from your ear Jul 05 23:44:47 you have to ignore those in software Jul 05 23:44:51 lol, seriously though :p Jul 05 23:45:01 iphone solves this by shutting off the touchpad when you move it to your ear i believe Jul 05 23:45:11 SpeedEvil: is there an 'ear' flag with each click? Jul 05 23:45:11 does openmoko have anything similar or just have to be really careful? :| Jul 05 23:45:14 I'm sorry, but I wanna say...this is sweet. Jul 05 23:45:23 Kpr|is|a|w|a|y|: i agree Jul 05 23:45:24 this thing can tell the difference between finger touches and ear touches? Jul 05 23:45:32 don-o: you'd really want at least a byte or so. Jul 05 23:45:38 * don-o wonders what other body parts it can recognize Jul 05 23:45:46 lol Jul 05 23:45:47 left ear, right ear, pinky, big left toe. Jul 05 23:45:57 and, of course Jul 05 23:46:01 the NAUGHTY_BIT Jul 05 23:46:26 * SpeedEvil avoids making nibble jokes. Jul 05 23:46:37 where the vibra will come in handy Jul 05 23:46:47 the UI will have to scale up for well-endowed users Jul 05 23:47:07 the users are geeks, it doesn't Jul 05 23:47:43 well, maybe for the mass-market release Jul 05 23:49:01 Got to cope with negatives too. Jul 05 23:49:24 well... moving right along... the case mods seem to be a popular topic on the list. Jul 05 23:49:24 women, you mean Jul 05 23:50:13 But yeah. A latex pouch would be nice for the negatives Jul 05 23:59:53 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone]] Jul 06 00:00:16 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmokos-neo-1973-open+source-smartphone-ships-in-october-at-450-to-600-275414.php Jul 06 00:08:16 what gentoo packages do i need for qemu to work with graphical Jul 06 00:18:02 emerge -pv ... Jul 06 00:18:44 i think a highly configurable interface that comes default in the most dumbed-down iphone-alike mode is the thing to do Jul 06 00:18:59 i wonder if i worked on it full time if fic would be so kind as to let me quit my day job :) Jul 06 00:21:09 galexande hehe.. that depends.. nobody blocks you to send in a cv ;) on the contrary. were still hiring Jul 06 00:21:54 i hadn't thought of that, but all my paper trail is compilers, not UI, so if I get in it will be only by the merits of my as-yet-to-be-determined contributions :) Jul 06 00:25:23 I got it it the gentoo package you want is sdl-gfx Jul 06 00:25:46 to be exact.. im quite puzzled about the amount of support from the opensource world and the ideas which people send in as mail, compared to the amount of people asking for paid work *g* Jul 06 00:26:56 you guys get paid for this? ;) Jul 06 00:27:03 lol Jul 06 00:30:57 miip you see.. were forced to do that.. else people working that hard like harald, sean and the rest of the team all over the world would starve... they have hardly enough time to sleep and eat, not for a second job ;) Jul 06 00:32:50 if we could pay somebody to make days 36 hours long we really would need to think about a corporate account Jul 06 00:39:47 is the qemu emulation speeds accurate to the speed of the device ? Jul 06 00:40:17 nope... qemu runs a bit faster on recent computers Jul 06 00:40:24 Depends on your system :D Jul 06 00:42:53 the qemu emulation is slow Jul 06 00:43:28 then again im not used to the mouse only thing Jul 06 00:43:43 BTW how do you get the keyboard Jul 06 00:54:33 getting used to it Jul 06 01:11:38 man, i love that 'get back in the drivers seat' spot Jul 06 01:12:34 just saw a Video on youtube of a Chinese made iPhone clone, looks pretty similar, the screen isnt as clear and the sounds seems to be from Windows XP Jul 06 01:12:56 AU$250 Jul 06 01:14:25 search for iphone unbox Jul 06 01:15:38 its branded as a tphone Jul 06 01:31:51 in mokomake file how to i get it to compile using alsa and not oss? Jul 06 01:50:26 hmm, 400 neos monday, and 248 people in here. stretching it thin ;) Jul 06 01:55:01 they're already sold out :p Jul 06 01:57:30 don't suppose anyone has a time? ;) Jul 06 01:59:45 as PayPal seems to be lagged, I think, that everybody is just logged in and waiting for a moment to send money :p Jul 06 02:02:08 fo0bar: I suppose this has already happened, so total of maybe 1000: "Another 600 will be ready before next week." Jul 06 02:03:43 I just noticed the openmoko videos - are they available in Ogg Theora somewhere ? Jul 06 02:04:08 aloril: ahh, neat Jul 06 02:04:13 not that i'm aware of, MagicFab Jul 06 02:04:40 is it OK if I download + convert them ? Jul 06 02:04:57 fo0bar: dunno if that helps much, but I hope it delays them running out of Neos enough long so that I get one ;-) Jul 06 02:05:06 why wouldn't it be? Jul 06 02:05:12 ...and are the original files available to do that Jul 06 02:05:32 you'll have to ask the guy who made them for the 'source' -- there's a thread on the ml Jul 06 02:05:53 MacNorthXP, ok tx Jul 06 02:07:45 MagicFab: you can just get them off youtube and convert them yourself Jul 06 02:08:20 sure, if you don't mind the re-encoding quality hit Jul 06 02:08:29 MagicFab, precisely Jul 06 02:08:42 oups Jul 06 02:08:59 Agrajag-, yes, but I'd rather convert from the original files Jul 06 02:09:03 can't be too autocomplete lazy here ;-) Jul 06 02:09:08 yeah fair enough Jul 06 02:11:13 :) Jul 06 02:33:14 got one of these sitting about 3 feet from my window at work here in Sydney http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/rjhayes/2005/05/24/parrot.jpg Jul 06 02:33:51 * sixfeet ♫ Debauchery - Praise The Blood God [4:04/4:17] [|||||||||-] Jul 06 02:34:31 Crimson Rosella Jul 06 02:35:36 ^^ Jul 06 02:36:14 linux_galore, nice view Jul 06 02:45:22 I suppose you get asked this all the time, but is anyone working on a cdma version? Jul 06 02:45:27 <__brandon__> random question: the a680 supports edge for the cingular networks, is there any way to hack in code from that device or does edge require some hardware to operate? Jul 06 02:47:12 hozer, i think g3 is on the roadmap, but it's a long way off Jul 06 02:47:18 and edge and all that Jul 06 02:48:27 hello galexande Jul 06 02:48:31 galexande: is that on the wiki somewhere? Jul 06 02:48:38 <__brandon__> much rather have g3 than edge any day of the week, browsing on my a680 is painful sometimes. Jul 06 02:48:38 :) Jul 06 02:48:54 hozer, i'm not sure. it's certainly not official. they've only officially speced out gta01 (next week) and gta02 (like november) Jul 06 02:49:42 lo arw Jul 06 02:49:47 :) Jul 06 02:50:12 galexande: what time is.. Jul 06 02:50:22 arw, i'm in indiana not belgium :) Jul 06 02:50:52 indiana.. u.s.a ? Jul 06 02:50:55 yeah Jul 06 02:51:02 good... Jul 06 02:51:03 it's in the middle Jul 06 02:51:07 galexande: .. is g3 another name for gen3 cdma/EVDO ? Jul 06 02:52:21 indiana... indianápolis Jul 06 02:52:25 hozer, beats me. Jul 06 02:53:10 hozer, i think it's safe to assume that it will be at least a year before it's anything but gsm Jul 06 02:53:58 blarg. As near as I can tell Sprint is the only carrier with a decent EVDO deployment in Iowa Jul 06 02:54:18 I have no idea what the GSM broadband deployments are like Jul 06 02:57:37 i think at&t has gprs data over a lot of the nation, but i don't think it's fast Jul 06 02:57:42 well, of usa **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jul 06 02:59:57 2007