**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jul 09 02:59:59 2007
Jul 09 03:00:06 <happycube> ditto
Jul 09 03:00:50 <ExxonValdeez> linux_galore: yeah, the wifi card i just bought because we moved where the computer was, ubuntu runs fine, i might try installing tribe 2 on there instead of the laptop, the desktop has xp for my family, simplymepis and fedora 7
Jul 09 03:00:52 <linux_galore> yeah, Ive tried one of those built in keyboard with the mobile phones, bugger that give me a BT fold-up unit any day
Jul 09 03:01:01 <ExxonValdeez> that would be nice
Jul 09 03:01:33 <galexande> i'm still intrigued by the lack of a d-pad
Jul 09 03:01:52 <linux_galore> yeah, d-pad would be nice
Jul 09 03:02:16 <arachnid> The annoying thing about input on small devices is that there are many possibilities for better input methods, but they require users to learn, eg, a new keyboard layout
Jul 09 03:02:21 <arachnid> Which people are very reluctant to do
Jul 09 03:02:31 <linux_galore> galexande: with the GTA02 you could replace the d-pad with a tilt action
Jul 09 03:02:37 <arachnid> Two characters per key, as Chairboy suggested, for example
Jul 09 03:02:38 <happycube> iirc gta01 was piggybacked off a prospective chinese design - i wonder whatever happened to that version
Jul 09 03:02:41 <chx> hi. I read "USB 1.1, switchable between Client and Host (unpowered)" on openmoko.com does this mean that I can attach, say, a keyboard to it?
Jul 09 03:02:52 <bhima> chx: with a power supply for the USB IF, yes.
Jul 09 03:02:54 <happycube> chx - you need a power sour...
Jul 09 03:03:02 <happycube> like a powered usb hub
Jul 09 03:03:03 <chx> ah. i see.
Jul 09 03:03:05 <aloril> chx: or you can get bluetooth keyboard
Jul 09 03:03:12 <chx> hmmmm 
Jul 09 03:03:14 <chx> good.
Jul 09 03:03:14 <galexande> aren't there keyboards that don't draw power?
Jul 09 03:03:16 <ExxonValdeez> like ryan block i really think the tactile touch of actual buttons is better than a touch screen
Jul 09 03:03:20 <happycube> targus should make a self-powered usb kbd too
Jul 09 03:03:21 <anrp> inductors are relatively large for doing voltage boost
Jul 09 03:03:23 <galexande> like, ps/2 keyboards these days don't need the +5V rail to operate
Jul 09 03:03:25 <anrp> so getting the 5v is hard ;/
Jul 09 03:03:33 <happycube> then again logitech should make a bluetooth kbd and they've never done that
Jul 09 03:03:40 <happycube> *bluetooth trackball - tired!
Jul 09 03:03:42 <linux_galore> galexande: wireless usb keyboard
Jul 09 03:03:43 * arachnid even ran a GA simulation to try and evolve the best cellphone keypad layout for english - it looked nothing like standard layouts. :)
Jul 09 03:03:44 <bhima> Will the neo1973 turn on its USB IF without getting 5v?
Jul 09 03:03:44 <ExxonValdeez> i cant image how disgusting the screen would get, i would have to carry around a cleaning pad
Jul 09 03:04:04 <chx> stowaway sierra for example is a nice foldable keyboard...
Jul 09 03:04:06 <bhima> I like tactile buttons.
Jul 09 03:04:08 <galexande> bhima, i think software could make that decision arbitrarily.
Jul 09 03:04:30 <bhima> But....tactile buttons the size of most cellphones are usually not very good.
Jul 09 03:04:34 <bhima> My E70 is not bad.
Jul 09 03:04:39 <bhima> I don't like treo buttons.
Jul 09 03:04:41 <linux_galore> ExxonValdeez: yeah that one issue a reviewer had with the iphone, smudges on the phone
Jul 09 03:04:49 <anrp> bhima probably, its just up to the device to not sense 5v
Jul 09 03:04:51 <roh> bhima the only reason for not beeing able to provide power usb is that there is nothing the the phone which has 5V
Jul 09 03:04:53 <anrp> some don't, most do
Jul 09 03:05:05 <ExxonValdeez> bhima: how are the sudges?
Jul 09 03:05:12 <roh> we need a step-up converter for that. hopefully gta02 will have one
Jul 09 03:05:24 <anrp> inductors are physically large ;/
Jul 09 03:05:42 <obscurite> someone should make some "i'm an iphone, i'm a neo" videos
Jul 09 03:05:43 <anrp> there's a bit of space freeing up from the cpu transition but i think its all going to the video accelerator and accelerometer
Jul 09 03:05:45 <bhima> ExxonValdeez: Better than most of my other devices, and the screen is very physically tough so you can just rub it off.
Jul 09 03:06:08 <bhima> ExxonValdeez: Also, the entire front of the device is flat, so you don't have to worry about rubbing grit off the side of the screen into the housing.
Jul 09 03:06:39 <ExxonValdeez> bhima: thats nice, did you watch the systm episode where they dropped it and opened it?
Jul 09 03:06:41 <aloril> not /. yet
Jul 09 03:06:53 <anrp> why not?!
Jul 09 03:07:03 <bhima> obscurite: Good idea. :)
Jul 09 03:07:48 <ExxonValdeez> obscurite: that would be awesome
Jul 09 03:08:05 <bhima> Anybody in SE FLorida or Pittsburgh with a Neo?
Jul 09 03:08:16 <arachnid> That's been discussed on the list a fair bit :)
Jul 09 03:08:24 <anrp> almost noone has a neo yet, save for phase0 devs ;/
Jul 09 03:10:18 <bhima> Oh, ok. when do peons get the ones they're ordering online?
Jul 09 03:10:21 <ExxonValdeez> has anyone already placed an order?
Jul 09 03:10:31 <anrp> 16th+shipping time, probably
Jul 09 03:10:52 <anrp> maybe earlier
Jul 09 03:10:58 <anrp> maybe..
Jul 09 03:11:02 * anrp chokes back a laugh
Jul 09 03:13:10 <ExxonValdeez> aacs, the good old days with digg riots
Jul 09 03:15:24 <happycube> that was epic copypasta
Jul 09 03:15:38 <Chairboy> I drew up a real quick onscreen keyboard idea based on a memory of a tech demo I saw a few months ago that I can't find: http://hallert.net/images/moko-keyboardidea.GIF
Jul 09 03:15:44 <anrp> i thought the proper adjective was delicious copypasta
Jul 09 03:15:56 <happycube> it was delicious too
Jul 09 03:16:06 <Chairboy> The idea was "fingers are big and going to mash, so take away the stress of trying to hit the target exactly", kinda like the iPhone, but with visual cues to.
Jul 09 03:16:07 <aloril> hehe: http://traviswellman.com/2007/07/openmoko
Jul 09 03:16:12 <happycube> but seeing digg flooded like that was just something else
Jul 09 03:16:14 <empty_mind> counter
Jul 09 03:16:14 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 21:30) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order at http://openmoko.com  (1719;247)
Jul 09 03:16:27 <empty_mind> intelligent counter
Jul 09 03:17:15 <bhima> It's going to be interesting to see if Apple releases a native devkit. The iPhone feels so feature-limited to me that I don't think they had the time for a devkit.
Jul 09 03:17:28 * aloril just meant in case of miss understanding, that just hasn't hit /. yet
Jul 09 03:17:43 <galexande> chairboy, i bet it works pretty well for typing english text
Jul 09 03:17:56 <bhima> So I'm hoping that it's on their agenda. Hopefully a great batch of openmoko apps will prod them too.
Jul 09 03:17:58 <galexande> bhima, i don't think apple wants you to develop for it
Jul 09 03:18:31 <galexande> the iphone hardware really is quite cute
Jul 09 03:18:55 <obscurite> it's damned sexy :)
Jul 09 03:18:59 <anrp> that's what apple does best
Jul 09 03:19:16 <anrp> i'm partial to industrial ibm black as well though.. too bad its not really ibm anymore
Jul 09 03:19:27 <bhima> galexande: I don't know. I can't tell. A good devkit takes a lot of time and people.
Jul 09 03:19:49 <doc|home> will there be another shell design any time soon?
Jul 09 03:20:00 <obscurite> doc|home - faq says next rev has the same case
Jul 09 03:20:20 <doc|home> ok, thanks
Jul 09 03:20:39 <bhima> Oh, I forgot, the neo1973 has GPS too, doesn't it? Hrm. It's sounding more and more attractive.
Jul 09 03:20:49 <bhima> When is the wifi one coming out...?
Jul 09 03:20:53 <doc|home> bhima: the full production ones in oct
Jul 09 03:21:00 <doc|home> iirc
Jul 09 03:21:55 <ExxonValdeez> aloril: we should make a fake Sean Moss-Pultz blog, in line with the rumor wiki you showed there
Jul 09 03:22:06 <ExxonValdeez> he is the openmoko Program Manager
Jul 09 03:22:10 <ExxonValdeez> if you didnt know
Jul 09 03:22:20 <anrp> i would bet that he did .. D:
Jul 09 03:22:31 <rwhitby> aloril knows all
Jul 09 03:22:42 <anrp> he knows sed!
Jul 09 03:22:47 <aloril> yeah, he is Steve Jobs of Neo1973/OpenMoko ;-)
Jul 09 03:23:07 <galexande> i can't wait til mine comes in the amil
Jul 09 03:23:29 <galexande> maybe by then mokomakefile will be done :)
Jul 09 03:23:57 <ExxonValdeez> aloril: thats what i was thinking, galexande: did you order one?
Jul 09 03:24:17 <ExxonValdeez> has anyone gotten the qemu stuff running? is there the actually gui?
Jul 09 03:24:38 <galexande> exxon, of course :)
Jul 09 03:24:52 <aloril> ExxonValdeez: you don't need to compile everything if you just want to look at it, just qemu + download images takes only minutes
Jul 09 03:25:38 <aloril> seems they have additional week to produce more, I guess after day or 2 they know a lot more about demand
Jul 09 03:26:14 <ExxonValdeez> ooh, i cant wait, yeah, i saw it on the wiki but was confused as to if you could interact with the gui, unfortunately i am in vista right now and not ubuntu, ugh, converting audible audio, actually recording it with audacity, really annoying
Jul 09 03:26:25 <rwhitby> galexande: mokomakefile is simply a test to see if you have enough patience to be an openmoko developer ...
Jul 09 03:26:51 <galexande> i think i can i think i can
Jul 09 03:27:39 <ExxonValdeez> galexande: do you have kqemu installed?
Jul 09 03:27:48 <galexande> exxon, no
Jul 09 03:28:05 <galexande> honestly i'm not excited about the emulator, i just want to be able to cross-compile and run on the neo when it gets here
Jul 09 03:28:30 <galexande> because i want to work with the gps and the dialer...everythhing else i'd just develop as a gtk app
Jul 09 03:28:57 <ExxonValdeez> it gives a pretty big performance boost, did you already order one? i think i am going to wait for the wifi version since i dont have much experience coding
Jul 09 03:30:21 <galexande> yeah i've got one coming.  i want to write a parallel application stack that looks like star trek
Jul 09 03:30:51 <ExxonValdeez> that sounds really cool, what is your development background?
Jul 09 03:31:08 <galexande> compilers :)
Jul 09 03:31:47 <galexande> the phone looks so small in sean moss-pultz's hands
Jul 09 03:31:52 <galexande> i can't believe it's 640x480
Jul 09 03:32:21 <ExxonValdeez> where is that pic?
Jul 09 03:32:32 <ExxonValdeez> you write compilers?
Jul 09 03:32:36 <bhima> Phones with insanely high density pixels are getting more common. 220 dpi on the Nokia 770.
Jul 09 03:32:46 <summatusmentis> you WRITE compilers?
Jul 09 03:32:49 <galexande> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg
Jul 09 03:32:52 <summatusmentis> now I feel completely stupid :-)
Jul 09 03:33:00 <Agrajag-> hey that ninja video where they're (trying) to play a video - that's not the new processor is it?
Jul 09 03:33:01 <galexande> mostly i maintain them.
Jul 09 03:33:26 <summatusmentis> Agrajag-: that's the GTA01b4, iirc
Jul 09 03:33:28 <galexande> agrajag, that's with the gta01 hardware...i imagine the gta02 with its accelerator won't have any trouble with it
Jul 09 03:33:37 <Agrajag-> yeah, hope so :)
Jul 09 03:34:05 <summatusmentis> galexande: well, regardless, I can't even write a patch to fix a segfault :-P
Jul 09 03:34:21 <ExxonValdeez> thats really cool, maintaining compilers, how did you learn programming? (sorry if it seems like i am interrogating you, i am just interested)
Jul 09 03:34:36 <ExxonValdeez> summatusmentis: i feel completely stupid as well
Jul 09 03:34:39 <summatusmentis> I'm with him ^
Jul 09 03:34:42 <summatusmentis> :-)
Jul 09 03:34:55 <galexande> i am mostly self-taught.  i just landed in compilers because some compiler-obsessed professor took me under his wing
Jul 09 03:35:14 <summatusmentis> can I ask where at?
Jul 09 03:35:15 <galexande> they're just software like anything else.  90% of the time you are not working on something that is even an interesting algorithm
Jul 09 03:35:30 <galexande> i work for dignus.com.  everyone's gotta have a niche :)
Jul 09 03:35:43 * unknown_lamer is reminded that he needs to finish L.i.s.p.
Jul 09 03:36:05 <anrp> os/390...
Jul 09 03:36:06 * summatusmentis is reminded he should probably start and finish college before getting too down about being stupid :-)
Jul 09 03:36:29 <unknown_lamer> summatusmentis: college is often overrated
Jul 09 03:36:37 <ExxonValdeez> ***is wanting to go to college because high school has really crappy programming classes
Jul 09 03:36:44 <unknown_lamer> summatusmentis: if you're doing CS and not at CMU, Berkeley, or MIT you are probably wasting your time
Jul 09 03:36:46 <galexande> you know, compiling doom for the neo wouldn't even be a joke, it is totally capable
Jul 09 03:36:51 <ExxonValdeez> agh, how do you do the star thing?
Jul 09 03:36:52 <galexande> except for ... damn multitouch would be nice for doom :)
Jul 09 03:36:54 <summatusmentis> unknown_lamer: well, perhaps, but training is good
Jul 09 03:37:00 <unknown_lamer> training is worthless
Jul 09 03:37:05 <anrp> worthless?
Jul 09 03:37:06 <summatusmentis> ExxonValdeez: /me
Jul 09 03:37:09 <anrp> i wouldn't put it that strongly
Jul 09 03:37:16 <unknown_lamer> *learning* is useful, training is useless
Jul 09 03:37:35 <anrp> if you're not learning from training its not training
Jul 09 03:37:46 <summatusmentis> ok, minutae, but regardless, having an environment in which to learn is still a good idea
Jul 09 03:37:49 <galexande> probably only two classes from college are factually relevant to me but it was still a great experience that improved me
Jul 09 03:37:57 <ExxonValdeez> galexande: well, yeah, doom would easily run, it runs on my sisters sansa e250
Jul 09 03:38:14 <unknown_lamer> summatusmentis: I found the University hampered me from learning; the pointless busy work really ate into the time I could spend doing stuff like building Lisp compilers
Jul 09 03:38:18 <galexande> my ipaq h3765, doom would fill all my free memory
Jul 09 03:38:34 <ExxonValdeez> ah, well hopefully by college i will be motivated enough to actually learn how to code
Jul 09 03:38:37 <summatusmentis> unknown_lamer: which Universtiy?
Jul 09 03:38:44 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: htdp.org start NOW
Jul 09 03:38:45 <galexande> motivation is much more important than education
Jul 09 03:38:46 * bhima liked CMU.
Jul 09 03:38:56 <summatusmentis> ExxonValdeez: I did a couple of science fair projects to learn to code
Jul 09 03:38:58 <unknown_lamer> summatusmentis: umbc.edu ... crappy little place in Baltimore that *used* to have a decent cs program
Jul 09 03:39:05 <anrp> and I hated mit ;/
Jul 09 03:39:11 <summatusmentis> unknown_lamer: I see
Jul 09 03:39:16 <unknown_lamer> *sniff* I wish I had been there in the 90s when the ex-bell labs folks were there and a lisp course was required to graduate
Jul 09 03:39:18 <summatusmentis> anrp: I've heard mixed things about MIT
Jul 09 03:39:21 <galexande> anrp, i'm glad, because i couldn't get in :)
Jul 09 03:39:27 <galexande> good to know it sucks anyways :)
Jul 09 03:39:37 <anrp> mit is a good place to do things
Jul 09 03:39:40 <anrp> not as a student...
Jul 09 03:39:59 <galexande> yeah i realized all the cool people at mit that i respected were dropouts or perpetual students
Jul 09 03:40:13 <summatusmentis> lol
Jul 09 03:40:20 <anrp> really :S
Jul 09 03:40:24 <summatusmentis> it's an interesting way to look at it
Jul 09 03:40:48 <summatusmentis> I'll be attending a small liberal arts college in western MN(US) in the fall
Jul 09 03:41:09 <summatusmentis> for CS of all things, hopefully the liberal arts aspect doesn't hamper me too much
Jul 09 03:41:28 * ExxonValdeez wants to got to MIT but doesnt really know much about other colleges
Jul 09 03:41:39 <galexande> arts are great, a class where you can',t figure everything out by rtfm
Jul 09 03:41:42 <bhima> CMU is better. MIT sucks.
Jul 09 03:41:58 <galexande> heh
Jul 09 03:41:58 <summatusmentis> ExxonValdeez: expect to pay $$$$$$ at the end
Jul 09 03:42:00 <unknown_lamer> summatusmentis: I suggest majoring in one of the liberal arts and at most minoring in CS and learning it in your free time
Jul 09 03:42:03 <anrp> i would tend to agree with half that statement
Jul 09 03:42:15 <anrp> mit is >$17k/semester, so be warned
Jul 09 03:42:21 <anrp> they do have lots of assistance though
Jul 09 03:42:24 <unknown_lamer> if you enjoy programming at all school will more than likely turn into a review of what you already had to teach yourself, and then it just becomes painful
Jul 09 03:42:28 <bhima> CMU is quite expnesive too.
Jul 09 03:42:45 * ExxonValdeez does not think he has $$$$$$ to pay
Jul 09 03:43:08 <doc|home> a nick like that and you don't have tonnes of money? :)
Jul 09 03:43:19 <bhima> I found that I learned a lot in classes at CMU, but my first ~2 years afterwards I learned more.
Jul 09 03:43:25 <summatusmentis> ExxonValdeez: lol, same here. I'll be paying 14.5k/year :-)
Jul 09 03:43:29 <ExxonValdeez> oh, right, yeah, you know, i just have gobs of oil, i wish
Jul 09 03:43:36 <bhima> However, I wouldn't have learned as much later without what I did at CMU.
Jul 09 03:43:42 <ExxonValdeez> summatusmentis: nice
Jul 09 03:43:44 <bhima> Apply and then deal with financial aid.
Jul 09 03:43:55 <summatusmentis> ^that I agree w/
Jul 09 03:43:57 <bhima> There is a lot of aid available.
Jul 09 03:44:00 <summatusmentis> keep options open, definitely
Jul 09 03:44:00 <ExxonValdeez> unknown_lamer: thanks for the link, btw, what do you do with coding?
Jul 09 03:44:10 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: lisp consulting
Jul 09 03:44:13 <bhima> Don't reject a school because of perceived cost.
Jul 09 03:44:15 <ExxonValdeez> ooh, interesting
Jul 09 03:44:31 <ExxonValdeez> bhima: thats true, and being mexican american doesnt hurt
Jul 09 03:44:35 <bhima> I didn't do any LISP at all. I did a fair amount of SML.
Jul 09 03:44:43 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: I'm working on a long-term project now that I *really* hope I can get funding for (a notebook-style notebook computer)
Jul 09 03:44:52 <unknown_lamer> sml is nice too
Jul 09 03:44:56 <summatusmentis> ExxonValdeez: yeah, consider all options, apply where you want to go, then weigh options
Jul 09 03:45:05 <unknown_lamer> I just like to do funky metaprogramming more than crazy formal math programming
Jul 09 03:45:14 <unknown_lamer> my head was wired for symbolic computation and not category theory
Jul 09 03:45:41 <aloril> counter_msg (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order http://openmoko.com ; Shipping 60% in 
Jul 09 03:45:41 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order http://openmoko.com ; Shipping 60% in  
Jul 09 03:45:42 <ExxonValdeez> unknown_lamer: i have read some lisp in the hacker's quarterly, interesting language
Jul 09 03:46:04 <aloril> counter_msg (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order http://openmoko.com ; Shipping 60% in
Jul 09 03:46:04 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order http://openmoko.com ; Shipping 60% in 
Jul 09 03:46:17 <galexande> i used to be crazy about forth
Jul 09 03:46:32 <aloril> (just added guesses about shipping, no real new info)
Jul 09 03:46:33 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: I like to think of it as a metalanguage
Jul 09 03:46:44 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: sufficient use of the MOP and Macros can make it do anything you want
Jul 09 03:47:07 <unknown_lamer> It is rather nice because you can factor mapping decisions out into metacode and then have your main code be phrased in terms applicable to the domain
Jul 09 03:47:14 <anrp> anything? including make openmoko take over the world(tm)?
Jul 09 03:47:17 <aloril> counter
Jul 09 03:47:17 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order http://openmoko.com ; Shipping 60% in a week, 3 days 08:12:38 (10.342±3.0 days) (1720;246)
Jul 09 03:47:25 <unknown_lamer> if you need to adjust the mapping for performance or something you just change the metacode and life goes on
Jul 09 03:47:38 <aloril> counter runs out really when I have one in my hand ;-)
Jul 09 03:47:41 <galexande> unknown lamer, you should learn forth and enjoy immediatewords :)
Jul 09 03:47:42 <unknown_lamer> anrp: I'm going to get clisp on the openmoko
Jul 09 03:47:53 <anrp> lua!
Jul 09 03:47:55 <unknown_lamer> anrp: dunno if I can do gui programming (istr that uffi/cffi don't work on ARM)
Jul 09 03:47:59 <anrp> learn lua, its very light
Jul 09 03:48:02 <unknown_lamer> I may get to learn arm assembly and make them work now
Jul 09 03:48:09 <anrp> asm...
Jul 09 03:48:11 <unknown_lamer> lua is less good than Common Lisp or Scheme
Jul 09 03:48:31 <anrp> but lua has enough in common with standard imperative to be comfortable to lots of people
Jul 09 03:48:42 <unknown_lamer> eww imperative programming
Jul 09 03:48:42 <ExxonValdeez> is python going to be easy to work with on the neo? and yeah, asm, hardcore, too bad i cant code asm then i could code for my 89 titanium
Jul 09 03:48:52 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: python is very slow. guile is faster.
Jul 09 03:48:56 <unknown_lamer> and guile is *slow*
Jul 09 03:49:03 * anrp refuses to get into language wars
Jul 09 03:49:11 <unknown_lamer> The solution clearly
Jul 09 03:49:19 <unknown_lamer> is to use defs files and let everyone use his favorite language :-)
Jul 09 03:49:24 <ExxonValdeez> unknown_lamer: python seems the easiest to learn and with gtk bindings easy to dev apps for
Jul 09 03:49:45 <unknown_lamer> ExxonValdeez: oh, it's a reasonable end-user scripting language but its æsthetic offends me
Jul 09 03:50:05 <ExxonValdeez> what do you mean by that?
Jul 09 03:50:12 <unknown_lamer> whitespace has meaning
Jul 09 03:50:12 <galexande> exxon, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Higher_level_language_options
Jul 09 03:50:19 <galexande> unknown lamer, amen
Jul 09 03:50:27 <unknown_lamer> and it's really nothing revolutionary
Jul 09 03:50:47 <ExxonValdeez> JIT?
Jul 09 03:50:51 <galexande> exxon, in short, you can install python or perl or whatever no problemo, but for developing apps to be included in the stock rom, you probably won't be able to use it
Jul 09 03:51:24 * bhima likes python.
Jul 09 03:51:26 <ExxonValdeez> and yes, thank you, i had seen that page but been consfused about it, hadnt really looked much at the matrix, i read the discussion about scripting languages
Jul 09 03:51:37 <ExxonValdeez> galexande: i see
Jul 09 03:52:02 <ExxonValdeez> lua is available for the psp, anyone do any scripting in that?
Jul 09 03:52:51 <ExxonValdeez> lua i mean, not for the psp
Jul 09 03:53:07 * anrp raises hand
Jul 09 03:53:12 <ExxonValdeez> yay!
Jul 09 03:53:23 <galexande> does lua have convenient gtk bindings?
Jul 09 03:53:41 <ExxonValdeez> i made an alarm clock and metronome in lua for the psp, not very good
Jul 09 03:53:57 * ExxonValdeez has no idea about gtk bindings
Jul 09 03:54:09 <anrp> lua has some development direct gtk bindings
Jul 09 03:54:18 <anrp> once through gtk-server, and one more native
Jul 09 03:54:29 <anrp> gtk-server seems a bit more mature
Jul 09 03:54:40 <aloril> random "bought Neo1973" -blog: http://substitute.livejournal.com/1630683.html
Jul 09 03:54:45 <anrp> http://luaforge.net/projects/lua-gtk/
Jul 09 03:54:53 <anrp> not that i've ever used it
Jul 09 03:55:09 <anrp> the whole idea of GTK rubs me the wrong way, at least in its native use
Jul 09 03:55:14 <anrp> reimplementing C++..
Jul 09 03:55:53 <ExxonValdeez> interesting blog
Jul 09 03:56:10 <ExxonValdeez> yay! audio is about finished recording
Jul 09 03:56:44 <galexande> anrp, or is it c++ reinventing oop :)
Jul 09 03:56:55 <anrp> c++ implements oop...
Jul 09 03:56:58 <anrp> reinventing?
Jul 09 03:56:58 <ExxonValdeez> okay, good talking to you guys, gtg to bed, sadly
Jul 09 03:57:02 <anrp> that's an odd way to describe it
Jul 09 03:57:23 <summatusmentis> goodnight ExxonValdeez 
Jul 09 03:57:24 <galexande> anrp, gtk just has an oop framework...c++ also has an oop framework, but c++'s sucks :)
Jul 09 03:57:27 <anrp> i'm not going to argue it does it well but it definately does it
Jul 09 03:57:48 <anrp> yes, gtk has twisted C into providing a oop framework
Jul 09 03:57:56 <galexande> C is perfectly capable of providing an oop framework
Jul 09 03:58:17 <ExxonValdeez> gn! :)
Jul 09 03:58:27 <anrp> bai D:
Jul 09 03:59:01 <anrp> like i said it just rubs me the wrong way
Jul 09 04:01:02 <summatusmentis> someone here is gonna have to post a review of the neo when they get theirs
Jul 09 04:01:17 <galexande> i'll make a youtube!!
Jul 09 04:01:28 <anrp> "it turns on! and shows pretty pictures! I even managed to make one phone call before it crashed!"
Jul 09 04:01:32 <anrp> careful what you wish for
Jul 09 04:01:54 <anrp> not that that'll happen, but its for devs so far
Jul 09 04:01:55 <summatusmentis> anrp: lol, ok, so a forward looking review :-) of things yet to come
Jul 09 04:03:05 <linux_galore> do the whole UI in c#  heh
Jul 09 04:03:13 <galexande> hah, hah
Jul 09 04:03:20 <linux_galore> that will make em spit out their wheaties 
Jul 09 04:03:25 <anrp> i haven't used c# so I dunno how good it is
Jul 09 04:03:37 <Chairboy> So, this probably won't be too popular to suggest, but considering that the iPhone seems to be the yardstick everyone is using, what are the chances that the most succesful OpenMoko implementation will be heavilly inspired along those directions instead of the Windows Mobile flavor it seems to have now?
Jul 09 04:03:40 <anrp> but basing off microsoft's work doesn't seem like a good idea, at best
Jul 09 04:03:57 <hads> *yawn*
Jul 09 04:04:32 <linux_galore> Im finding the Toshiba G900 is the yardstick now, the iphone is just a pretty toy
Jul 09 04:04:45 <linux_galore> or even the HTC Advantage 
Jul 09 04:04:49 <anrp> let me tell you why you're wrong
Jul 09 04:04:52 <anrp> "the what?"
Jul 09 04:04:57 <anrp> everyone knows the iphone
Jul 09 04:05:08 <summatusmentis> I was just gonna ask what the G900 was
Jul 09 04:05:13 <Chairboy> Never heard of it
Jul 09 04:05:25 <Chairboy> I've seen HTC's previous phone, but haven't seen the Advantage yet.
Jul 09 04:05:28 <linux_galore> lots of reviews on youtube
Jul 09 04:05:42 <linux_galore> dito the htc phone
Jul 09 04:05:50 <Chairboy> Ah, didn't realize the G900 and Advantage had sold 700,000 on their first three days, my bad.  :D
Jul 09 04:06:05 <linux_galore> G900 is going gang busters
Jul 09 04:06:10 <ajmitch> linux_galore: not that it'd be hard to do the whole UI in C# these days
Jul 09 04:06:24 <summatusmentis> will the neo have mono?
Jul 09 04:06:26 <anrp> and what has the iphone sold?
Jul 09 04:06:30 <anrp> summatusmentis: if you compile it for it
Jul 09 04:06:37 <anrp> i do think mono has been run on arm before
Jul 09 04:06:47 <summatusmentis> anrp: apparently it's a bit rough for the Z
Jul 09 04:06:51 <galexande> summat, not by default
Jul 09 04:06:55 <galexande> but of course it'll install
Jul 09 04:06:57 <anrp> the Z is getting a bit old
Jul 09 04:06:59 <anrp> i have two of them..
Jul 09 04:07:00 <summatusmentis> galexande: right, ok
Jul 09 04:07:42 <Chairboy> I'm not saying that the consensus reflects the technically superior, just that the consensus seems to be that the iPhone is The Phone right now.  
Jul 09 04:07:51 * anrp nods
Jul 09 04:08:10 <anrp> apple is above all a marketing company
Jul 09 04:08:13 <linux_galore> Chairboy: just as many people hate the iphone as like it,
Jul 09 04:08:31 <summatusmentis> anrp: I'm worried that the neo will obsolete the zaurs, I love me 3200. 5500 is old, yes
Jul 09 04:08:38 <anrp> worried?
Jul 09 04:08:40 <Chairboy> If I thought it was the end-all, I wouldn't be here and on the list to get a production 1973.  The iPhone does a lot of things better than any other phone so far, usability-wise.  
Jul 09 04:08:41 <ajmitch> linux_galore: sure, but at least people have an opinion of it
Jul 09 04:08:42 <anrp> why be worried? its not a bad thing
Jul 09 04:09:15 <Chairboy> It has problems, lots of them, and I'm betting the 1973 or its ilk will be the right platform to take some good ideas Apple started and make them perfect for my needs.
Jul 09 04:09:17 <anrp> they're both ARM, both similar specs (although Z has more storage)
Jul 09 04:09:22 <summatusmentis> anrp: well, no, not exactly, but I invested ~$500 on the 3200 about 6-10 months ago
Jul 09 04:09:24 <anrp> and the Z has a kbd
Jul 09 04:09:26 <anrp> oh, heh
Jul 09 04:09:49 <summatusmentis> but then again, I'm not gonna be able to use the neo for another year and a half, so...
Jul 09 04:10:17 <linux_galore> the iphone will see fine to the Paris Hilton idiots who think owning a phone hides the fact their fat ugly and stupid but many will see the lack of a keypad and the user lock-ins as being a no go
Jul 09 04:10:20 <anrp> i haven't even installed graphical stuff on my z yet.. flashed it with the base image and just installed mplayer
Jul 09 04:10:25 <linux_galore> s/see/sell/
Jul 09 04:10:26 <apt> linux_galore meant: the iphone will sell fine to the Paris Hilton idiots who think owning a phone hides the fact their fat ugly and stupid but many will see the lack of a keypad and the user lock-ins as being a no go
Jul 09 04:10:32 <anrp> neo has no keypad either
Jul 09 04:10:37 <Chairboy> Linux_Galore: As clever as you are, I don't think that's a realistic assessment.
Jul 09 04:11:08 <anrp> and ... in america (tm), noone cares about lockin. it's expected
Jul 09 04:11:18 <anrp> thankfully there is a device for all the noones out there
Jul 09 04:11:20 <anrp> (this)
Jul 09 04:11:26 <summatusmentis> anrp: which is one of two things I'm not sure I like about the neo, lack of kbd, and no cam
Jul 09 04:11:32 <anrp> z has a cam?
Jul 09 04:11:34 <anrp> since when o_O
Jul 09 04:11:38 <summatusmentis> no, it doesn't
Jul 09 04:11:39 <linux_galore> anrp: your thinking telco lockins Im talking about everything is locked in
Jul 09 04:11:44 <summatusmentis> but phones do
Jul 09 04:11:52 <anrp> ah
Jul 09 04:11:57 <summatusmentis> linux_galore: seen a VZW phone recently?
Jul 09 04:12:00 <Chairboy> Prediction: Every major smart phone review in the next 6 months will compare against the iPhone.
Jul 09 04:12:08 <anrp> yes, phones are locked in
Jul 09 04:12:13 <anrp> but .. i stand by my original statement
Jul 09 04:12:51 <bmidgley> MS still sells a horrible UI on their smartphones... the iphone should help people see that
Jul 09 04:13:13 <anrp> i think a lot of users already know that winmobile is pretty terrible
Jul 09 04:13:17 <anrp> it's also the only choice
Jul 09 04:13:17 <linux_galore> I will be interested what LG's update to the Prada (the original iphone) will be later this year
Jul 09 04:13:24 <anrp> for them
Jul 09 04:13:30 <Chairboy> Agreed.  Based on what I've seen in screenshots and movies so far, it seems like OpenMoko is very mobile-like in UI.
Jul 09 04:13:48 <Chairboy> That's why I was asking above about the direction it was heading.
Jul 09 04:13:53 <bmidgley> openmoko has a lot of rough edges in the ui still
Jul 09 04:14:06 <anrp> and in the hw integration..
Jul 09 04:14:18 <anrp> as has not been made evident enough on the website it's not a finished device
Jul 09 04:14:23 <linux_galore> Ive seen Vista Mobile, its very pretty
Jul 09 04:14:30 <bmidgley> anrp: we know they will get the drivers etc right, but it's too easy to release bad ui
Jul 09 04:14:32 <anrp> its finished enough for all the noones here
Jul 09 04:14:33 <bmidgley> and think it's finished
Jul 09 04:14:53 <linux_galore> I think giszmodo did a review of a phone running Viata Mobile
Jul 09 04:14:55 <anrp> i do half expect that to happen, i'd like to be wrong though
Jul 09 04:15:09 <linux_galore> Vista*
Jul 09 04:15:38 <bmidgley> i just reflashed my neo with the latest... do you think the broken images will be fixed?
Jul 09 04:15:49 <bmidgley> ... drum roll...
Jul 09 04:16:24 <linux_galore> I cant wait till the phones start being delivered, wall to wall "my [whatever] doesnt work"
Jul 09 04:16:34 <bmidgley> well the bluetooth icon is back but the home screen icons are all broken images
Jul 09 04:16:42 <anrp> it's going to happen
Jul 09 04:16:47 <anrp> :/ sadly
Jul 09 04:17:13 <linux_galore> always be some idiot who "doesnt read the warning"
Jul 09 04:17:14 <bmidgley> I've noticed a lot of regressions...
Jul 09 04:17:15 <anrp> what, bmidgley? just use the terminal, marked WORKSFORME </sarcasm>
Jul 09 04:17:22 <summatusmentis> I hope people understand it's a dev version... I hope too many people didn't jump the gun....
Jul 09 04:17:35 <linux_galore> summatusmentis: Im waiting for GTA02
Jul 09 04:17:51 <bmidgley> audio stopped working for a while, icons come and go, dialer won't launch in some snapshots
Jul 09 04:17:52 <summatusmentis> linux_galore: me too, at least, maybe longer
Jul 09 04:17:52 <linux_galore> summatusmentis: even then I may wait for a few firmware cycles 
Jul 09 04:18:05 <anrp> sounds killer
Jul 09 04:18:28 <summatusmentis> linux_galore: yeah, I'm probably waiting 1.5 years
Jul 09 04:18:33 <linux_galore> heh
Jul 09 04:18:34 <anrp> at least there's time to improve it before the proper release
Jul 09 04:18:45 <anrp> who's to say it will be, though
Jul 09 04:18:50 <anrp> :/
Jul 09 04:18:55 <galexande> we are
Jul 09 04:19:08 <linux_galore> I might see if I can get my hands on a trial Toshi G900
Jul 09 04:19:19 <anrp> good luck then D: its hard work
Jul 09 04:19:21 <bmidgley> anrp: they will fix the obvious bugs, especially when developers have them in hand
Jul 09 04:19:39 <anrp> but ui niggles will be left alone, since devs will easily get used to terrible interfaces
Jul 09 04:19:45 <anrp> and not even notice them
Jul 09 04:19:49 <anrp> i certainly don't
Jul 09 04:19:52 <galexande> anrp, i think i disagree on that point
Jul 09 04:20:00 <anrp> mm?
Jul 09 04:20:14 <galexande> anrp, especially on a portable device, horrible interface decisions piss me off
Jul 09 04:20:37 <galexande> and the fact that all these open source programmers will be pissed off at the same bugs, that gives me hope that they'll get fixed and it won't turn into yet another unusabble smartphone
Jul 09 04:20:46 <anrp> well then you would be a good UI design red team guy D:
Jul 09 04:20:54 <galexande> we'll find out if i'm right :)
Jul 09 04:20:55 <anrp> all of them?
Jul 09 04:21:16 <anrp> i don't really see it a smartphone, not yet.. more of a platform
Jul 09 04:21:18 <galexande> my ipaq has lots of awful UI issues that I just don't care about.  But for my phone, I wouldn't put up with it
Jul 09 04:21:25 <bmidgley> galexande: I am bugged by poor UI but a lot of developers learn it and put up with it
Jul 09 04:21:51 <linux_galore> I agree, people are not very tolerant with UI bugs on phones
Jul 09 04:22:02 <linux_galore> so much so the company I work for keep it simple
Jul 09 04:22:21 <galexande> like just looking at the youtube videos that are up of the phones...  right away i am blown away by how unusable all of the apps look
Jul 09 04:22:33 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[Wish_List]] [[User:Chairboy]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Talk:Current_events]] [[P1_Owners]]
Jul 09 04:22:34 <anrp> however, the only people targeted with the phone until the actual mass marketing are developers
Jul 09 04:22:42 <anrp> which is why I think it might not get that much better
Jul 09 04:22:55 <bmidgley> on a phone with only one (stealthy) hardware button, ui will be even more important
Jul 09 04:22:56 <anrp> unless there's some effort to get ui feedback from non-devs
Jul 09 04:23:05 <galexande> well these will be developers who are actually clicking three times on microscopic buttons each time they hang up the phone
Jul 09 04:23:12 <galexande> so they'll hopefully make the buttons bigger and more streaoomlined
Jul 09 04:23:14 <galexande> i sure will :)
Jul 09 04:23:28 <khester> i agree on the horrible ui.  hopefully some UI types get involved and help fix things.  I'm a kernel type guy and my main moko software will be a vario/gps app, hopefully I'll keep the UI not too bad
Jul 09 04:23:36 <bmidgley> galexande: the dialer app itself is not bad, but switching apps needs improvement
Jul 09 04:23:39 <anrp> major issues will be fixed, most likely (not necessarily)
Jul 09 04:23:42 <summatusmentis> phone/contacts should be all finger based
Jul 09 04:23:44 <anrp> but minor ones...
Jul 09 04:23:50 <anrp> apple is known for polish
Jul 09 04:24:04 <anrp> yes, x/y/z smartphone does all the iphone does + more
Jul 09 04:24:06 <anrp> but it lacks polish
Jul 09 04:24:13 <galexande> i have lots of ideas for streamlining existing UIs but i get gridlocked easily if i get to make too many decisions from the ground up
Jul 09 04:24:14 <galexande> i'm excited :)
Jul 09 04:24:43 <linux_galore> yeah, If i was going to bag Linux and FOSS and point out were Apple apps (even the freeware stuff) snots on Linux is how refined OSX UI stuff is
Jul 09 04:25:29 <Chairboy> The fact that things like Beryl exist is what give me hope for this project, heh.
Jul 09 04:25:29 <galexande> i'm also concerned about how they'll come up with a consistent UI across applications
Jul 09 04:25:42 <linux_galore> you cant get that type of dedication without a reward ie $$$
Jul 09 04:25:47 <galexande> that's traditionally accomplished through a monolithic power structure
Jul 09 04:26:06 <bmidgley> I borrowed a sim but could never figure out what magic I needed to do to place a call
Jul 09 04:26:07 <anrp> which doesn't exist here, so it'll have to rely on something else
Jul 09 04:26:07 <cjb> linux_galore: hm?  there are thousands of people paid to hack on Linux.
Jul 09 04:26:11 <anrp> ...or be fragmented
Jul 09 04:26:26 <galexande> i'm likely to help make it more fragmented :)
Jul 09 04:26:32 <cjb> (ie. more than are paid to work on OS X)
Jul 09 04:26:49 <anrp> bmidgley: simple, printf 'ATD66655512121;\r' > /dev/ttySAC0
Jul 09 04:26:51 * anrp coughs
Jul 09 04:26:59 <linux_galore> cjb: yeah but if you look at the small foss apps on Linux the refinement isnt like the small $ stuff on Apple hardware
Jul 09 04:27:03 <galexande> what about turning on the speaker, anrp
Jul 09 04:27:11 <anrp> good question
Jul 09 04:27:15 <anrp> but why would you need a speaker?
Jul 09 04:27:23 <cjb> linux_galore: yes, because there's no central authority to say "this is the one true FOSS style guide".
Jul 09 04:27:25 <anrp> only testing the ability to make a call ;)
Jul 09 04:27:28 <linux_galore> cjb: they both do the same job but the over all refinement isnt there
Jul 09 04:27:30 <cjb> it's not that people aren't committed to their work.
Jul 09 04:28:04 <cjb> it's that if Apple wants to make everything look the same they can just command it, and if FOSS does you need to convince everyone that your toolkit/style guide is way better than all the others.
Jul 09 04:28:20 <bmidgley> FOSS has no UI tzar so it will never be as polished as OSX
Jul 09 04:28:22 <cjb> we're sort of getting there.  I think KDE is becoming less and less relevant.
Jul 09 04:28:22 <anrp> which is why linux still often looks fragmented from the outside
Jul 09 04:28:29 <galexande> well if they have the design/UI staff then they can have a UI czar at FIC
Jul 09 04:28:30 <anrp> ooh flamewar time D:
Jul 09 04:28:41 <cjb> and GNOME has a style guide and cuts down options to nearly the same extent as OS X
Jul 09 04:28:46 <galexande> and in september when all the apps start to get hacked into a final configuration, they can come in and replace all our UI elements
Jul 09 04:28:54 <cjb> I don't think there's really a flamewar here.  :)
Jul 09 04:29:11 <galexande> but it's a difficult use of open source energy.  i keep waffling on whether the final release will be cool or not
Jul 09 04:29:15 <galexande> but i know i'll love playing with it :)
Jul 09 04:29:21 <anrp> considering that the other major open source phone platform contender is Qt/Embedded, i think you might
Jul 09 04:29:31 <anrp> not that I really care either way, i just want it to work
Jul 09 04:29:46 <linux_galore> cjb: not according to SUSE last public question-air, over 70% of users prefered KDE as their default desktop
Jul 09 04:29:53 <anrp> see?
Jul 09 04:29:59 * anrp brings out the popcorn
Jul 09 04:30:02 <cjb> linux_galore: they asked SUSE users, who *already use KDE*.
Jul 09 04:30:10 <linux_galore> cjb: and thats from a Gnome based company 
Jul 09 04:30:23 <cjb> SUSE is historically the only mainstream KDE distro
Jul 09 04:30:30 <cjb> so no, I don't think it's a GNOME company.
Jul 09 04:30:51 <cjb> and, you know, it's just a poll.  maybe someone rigged it.
Jul 09 04:30:54 <linux_galore> cjb: no they asked "anyone" its a open public none distro specific question-air is was also posted on /.
Jul 09 04:31:13 <anrp> this is why its best to stay out of those type of statements
Jul 09 04:31:17 <anrp> blanket X > Y
Jul 09 04:31:26 <cjb> but it's very obvious that >90% of Linux users use GNOME.
Jul 09 04:31:32 <galexande> see, gtk reinvents OOP within C, but Qt reinvents OOP within C++, it really rubs me the wrong way :)
Jul 09 04:31:37 <cjb> because that's what every distro ships with, including Sun etc.
Jul 09 04:31:44 <anrp> i don't like Qt either
Jul 09 04:31:51 <anrp> double compiling, wtf?
Jul 09 04:31:59 <anrp> wx is alright, fltk also ok (but fltk looks terrible)
Jul 09 04:32:02 <linux_galore> cjb: nope, every questionar/census I have ever seen shows kde is more in use than gnome
Jul 09 04:32:08 <hads> This conversation is hardly relevant.
Jul 09 04:32:10 <cjb> linux_galore: that is wack
Jul 09 04:32:22 <anrp> hehe
Jul 09 04:32:24 <anrp> sparks!
Jul 09 04:32:29 <anrp> i see the beginnings of a flame
Jul 09 04:32:34 <galexande> i won't develop for qt, so i'm just lucky they standardized on gtk :)
Jul 09 04:32:47 <unknown_lamer> I demand CLIM
Jul 09 04:32:48 <galexande> | /media/3/moko/build/tmp/cross/bin/arm-linux-as: unrecognized option `-Qy'
Jul 09 04:32:55 * unknown_lamer goes on a hunger strike until his demands are met
Jul 09 04:33:00 <anrp> clim?
Jul 09 04:33:12 <unknown_lamer> anrp: common lisp interface manager 
Jul 09 04:33:19 <anrp> it'll probably compile
Jul 09 04:33:41 <linux_galore> cjb: go look it up, the Novell one is on line all the numbers are their, think about it, Novell have tied their boat the the Gnome desktop so why would they say that over 70% of users that filled in the online form said they run KDE
Jul 09 04:33:56 <unknown_lamer> gtk is ok gnome sucks
Jul 09 04:33:59 <linux_galore> s/the the/to the/
Jul 09 04:33:59 <apt> linux_galore meant: cjb: go look it up, the Novell one is on line all the numbers are their, think about it, Novell have tied their boat to the Gnome desktop so why would they say that over 70% of users that filled in the online form said they run KDE
Jul 09 04:34:05 <anrp> :(
Jul 09 04:34:18 <anrp> cmon, lets stop with blanket statements
Jul 09 04:34:21 <gcb77> does this error ring a bell to anyone: gadget_ep_parse: failed to configure gadgetfs: -16
Jul 09 04:34:26 <cjb> linux_galore: if it's on 70% of desktops, why isn't there a single distro that ships it?  why do they ignore their users and bundle a desktop that no-one likes?
Jul 09 04:35:55 <cjb> it's just a ridiculous thing to say.
Jul 09 04:36:18 <anrp> there's no distro that ships kde?
Jul 09 04:36:24 <anrp> i find that .. hard to believe
Jul 09 04:36:28 <cjb> I can't think of one that ships it by default.  Can you?
Jul 09 04:36:32 <anrp> kubuntu?
Jul 09 04:36:34 <linux_galore> cjb: like Kubuntu or Simply Mepis there are heaps, also your thinking Red Hat and Novell, its all to do with GTK stuff having a LGPL license thus allowing the companies to link their closed source application sake to the desktop libs for free, you cant do that with KDE because QT is GPL
Jul 09 04:36:35 <cjb> ..
Jul 09 04:36:42 <cjb> that's a small spinoff of Ubuntu, which ships GNOME.  Try again.
Jul 09 04:36:49 <cjb> Mepis!
Jul 09 04:37:04 <cjb> I see we're down to distros with numbers of users that you can count on one hand :)
Jul 09 04:37:06 <anrp> what's your definition of a distribution?
Jul 09 04:37:08 <hads> Can we have this conversation somewhere else? It's pretty irrelavant here.
Jul 09 04:37:10 <bmidgley> battery meter doesn't show the charge level now
Jul 09 04:37:16 * anrp agrees with hads
Jul 09 04:37:38 <linux_galore> s/application sake/ applications stack/
Jul 09 04:37:38 <anrp> even better, let's not have it at all
Jul 09 04:37:39 <apt> linux_galore meant: cjb: like Kubuntu or Simply Mepis there are heaps, also your thinking Red Hat and Novell, its all to do with GTK stuff having a LGPL license thus allowing the companies to link their closed source  applications stack to the desktop libs for free, you cant...
Jul 09 04:37:41 <anrp> its counterproductive
Jul 09 04:37:41 <cjb> anrp: Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian.. that's about it.  The distros that provide millions of users.
Jul 09 04:38:02 <linux_galore> cjb: they all offer KDE
Jul 09 04:38:03 <cjb> linux_galore: wait, now you're saying that GNOME's license isn't free enough?  this whole conversation is backwards.  :)
Jul 09 04:38:13 <cjb> linux_galore: but not by default.
Jul 09 04:38:16 <cjb> linux_galore: because no-one wants it.
Jul 09 04:38:20 <anrp> ugh
Jul 09 04:38:23 <unknown_lamer> in conclusion windowmaker is the best desktop environment qed
Jul 09 04:38:26 * anrp stops looking
Jul 09 04:38:37 <linux_galore> cjb: why do they all offer kde, could it be because people actually prefer is as Novell census shows
Jul 09 04:39:02 <cjb> ...
Jul 09 04:39:05 <mil__> happy 9th :}
Jul 09 04:39:10 <cjb> if they preferred it, it would be the default.
Jul 09 04:39:14 <anrp> yes, its finally available for sale!
Jul 09 04:39:19 <anrp> a lot of people have been waiting
Jul 09 04:39:20 <happycube> my order's in
Jul 09 04:39:31 * CM tries to distract with http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners
Jul 09 04:39:44 <anrp> still will probably be another week before the people who ordered it actually get it
Jul 09 04:39:48 <anrp> but.. hey, that's ok
Jul 09 04:40:03 <CM> happycube: Add yourself if you feel like it :D
Jul 09 04:40:08 * mil__ cant find the order link
Jul 09 04:40:09 <anrp> that's a number of days coutable with appendages, not quite a when it's ready thing
Jul 09 04:40:14 <anrp> direct.openmoko.com
Jul 09 04:42:17 <linux_galore> cjb: no it wouldnt, your forgetting those companies also make "binary only" applications and you can do that with QT
Jul 09 04:42:21 <mil__> great! a shell on my phone. gonna love it.. ncurses your phone! ;)
Jul 09 04:42:31 <anrp> mobile platform, not phone
Jul 09 04:42:33 <carrar> PINE on a CELLPHONE
Jul 09 04:42:34 <anrp> for now D: which is ok
Jul 09 04:42:38 <carrar> thats heaven!
Jul 09 04:42:49 <cjb> linux_galore: wow, you KDE guys have this massive conspiracy about why KDE isn't used by anyone.  That's so cute.
Jul 09 04:42:57 <anrp> yes pine ftw! ... err, no blanket statement there
Jul 09 04:43:27 <anrp> a condescending attitude helps noone
Jul 09 04:43:34 <linux_galore> cjb: no your ignoring the point, GTK allows comercial resellers of linux to link their "proprietry code" to GTC libs you cant do that with QT
Jul 09 04:43:41 <anrp> ...
Jul 09 04:43:44 <linux_galore> GTK*
Jul 09 04:43:50 <cjb> linux_galore: do any of the distributions I named actually do that?
Jul 09 04:43:57 <linux_galore> cjb: you bet
Jul 09 04:43:59 <cjb> does Ubuntu?  does Fedora?  does Debian?
Jul 09 04:44:07 * cjb knows of no such proprietary code.
Jul 09 04:44:15 <anrp> and ... not to fan the flame, but qt is also very available for commercial use
Jul 09 04:44:28 <anrp> how do you think TT stays in business
Jul 09 04:44:29 <linux_galore> cjb: go put hooks into the desktop for Oracle,,,,oops need LGPL
Jul 09 04:44:33 <mil__> are orders for europe taken as well?
Jul 09 04:44:33 <aloril> mil__: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 04:44:37 <anrp> yes
Jul 09 04:44:42 <anrp> however they ship through america
Jul 09 04:44:48 <anrp> so shipping would likely be close to $100
Jul 09 04:45:19 <anrp> see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Group_Order
Jul 09 04:45:22 <anrp> maybe you can join in
Jul 09 04:45:41 <summatusmentis> goodnight all
Jul 09 04:45:46 <anrp> nite D:
Jul 09 04:45:51 <mil__> :( but i wannted the debug board.. 550 is pretty high for developing. thanks for the grouporder link
Jul 09 04:46:10 <anrp> you don't need the debug board unless you brick the bootloader
Jul 09 04:46:19 <anrp> which, admittedly, may happen, but it shouldnt(tm)
Jul 09 04:46:28 <hads> You only need the debug board if you want to do uboot stuff or other very low level things.
Jul 09 04:46:42 <linux_galore> cjb: Red Hat, Novell have hooks in their enterprise stuff for database integration, Ubuntu went with GTK because "they do have none free projects"
Jul 09 04:47:01 <happycube> any idea why the phones are all FOB US?
Jul 09 04:47:05 <linux_galore> cjb: you need GTK to do that
Jul 09 04:47:09 <anrp> debug board also makes the flex cable signals easily available
Jul 09 04:47:17 <anrp> so if you want to integrate it into something else you'd want it
Jul 09 04:47:18 <mil__> hopefully some neo's are offered at the ccc camp. that would be a nice shipping saver
Jul 09 04:47:25 <anrp> ccc camp?
Jul 09 04:47:38 <anrp> happycube: FIC is shipping them to their american branch which is handling distribution
Jul 09 04:47:44 <anrp> it probably simplifies logistics
Jul 09 04:47:49 <happycube> yeah
Jul 09 04:47:51 <mil__> anrp: events.ccc.de/camp/2007/
Jul 09 04:48:06 <happycube> i'm wondering why fic europe isn't involved as well though
Jul 09 04:48:08 <happycube> ;)
Jul 09 04:48:19 <anrp> i dunno ;/
Jul 09 04:48:37 <cjb> linux_galore: I just don't know of a single piece of software that distributions ship that is non-free and linked to GTK.  Can you name one?
Jul 09 04:49:15 <anrp> ...
Jul 09 04:49:22 <anrp> this is pointless
Jul 09 04:49:35 <linux_galore> cjb: Ubuntu have in house software they may want to distribute, I even went to a lecture and talked about it, if you want to link between oracle stuff and the desktop you cant use QT
Jul 09 04:49:40 <anrp> mm, that ccc camp looks cool
Jul 09 04:49:47 <anrp> too bad i'm nowhere near europe ;/
Jul 09 04:49:49 <cjb> "may want to ship"
Jul 09 04:49:51 <cjb> so, you can't.
Jul 09 04:50:29 <mil__> anrp: ;)
Jul 09 04:50:31 <linux_galore> cjb: no they can but when they went with Gnome one of the selling points was the LGPL license so if at a later date they want to sell none free enterprise stuff they can
Jul 09 04:50:36 <anrp> and yes, you can link commercial code with QT
Jul 09 04:50:42 <anrp> but i didn't say that
Jul 09 04:51:19 <hads> anrp: Don't get sucked in by the trolls! :)
Jul 09 04:51:28 <anrp> er, ccc camp is redundant
Jul 09 04:51:31 * anrp coughs
Jul 09 04:51:39 <anrp> i meant, "ccc looks cool"
Jul 09 04:51:43 <anrp> its hard work
Jul 09 04:51:47 <anrp> misinformation and all D:
Jul 09 04:52:01 <cjb> linux_galore: so, the reason every distribution with meaningful marketshare ships GNOME is that they don't ship non-free software, but they might eventually, and then they might need GNOME.
Jul 09 04:52:15 <cjb> linux_galore: you can understand that this doesn't sound at all convincing.
Jul 09 04:52:35 <linux_galore> anyway, I have an easy nothing to do with me bit of hard to avoid evidence that people prefer kde called "Novells 2007 on line questionaire"
Jul 09 04:53:46 <linux_galore> cjb: in the case of Red Hat and Novell yes they work with proprietary software so they cant use QT without paying for a per desk license
Jul 09 04:54:06 <cjb> dude, proprietary software *already* involves paying for a per-desk license.
Jul 09 04:54:31 <linux_galore> cjb: yes but when you "link" the code to GPL thats no allowed
Jul 09 04:54:40 <linux_galore> not*
Jul 09 04:54:48 <cjb> actually, it's distribution of linked code that's disallowed.
Jul 09 04:55:11 <linux_galore> cjb: and what do Red Hat and Novell do, ooh yes distribute code
Jul 09 04:56:14 <linux_galore> cjb: Red Hat have big deals with both Oracle and IBM
Jul 09 04:56:34 <cjb> and is there some fantastic GTK Oracle frontend that ships with RHEL?
Jul 09 04:56:35 <linux_galore> hmm hail
Jul 09 04:56:47 <cjb> because, I haven't even heard of anything like that.
Jul 09 04:56:53 <linux_galore> cjb: they have enterprise tool sets yes
Jul 09 04:57:04 <linux_galore> cjb: you need to get out more
Jul 09 04:57:07 <anrp> oi
Jul 09 04:57:09 <anrp> you two
Jul 09 04:57:29 <anrp> there is no way oracle is going to run on openmoko (is there even an arm version?)
Jul 09 04:57:35 <anrp> so this is the wrong place
Jul 09 04:57:36 <cjb> first you say proprietary code is evil and the reason everyone's being forced to use GNOME, then you say I need to get out more when I don't know anything about it (and use GNOME) :)
Jul 09 04:57:59 <anrp> oracle on openmoko though, mmm
Jul 09 04:58:03 <anrp> that would make some people drool
Jul 09 04:58:08 <anrp> portable enterprise sql server
Jul 09 04:58:29 <anrp> would it make the neo1973 a munition? D:
Jul 09 04:58:29 <unknown_lamer> except that oracle is pretty bad
Jul 09 04:58:33 <unknown_lamer> why not postgres instead?
Jul 09 04:58:39 <anrp> i do agree, but thats it's reputation
Jul 09 04:58:41 <cjb> Debian popularity figures for packages:
Jul 09 04:58:50 <cjb> GNOME: 39911
Jul 09 04:58:51 <linux_galore> cjb: at the end of the day all i have to say is, show me "any" on line study showing gnome is that dominant with the end users
Jul 09 04:58:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Group_Order]] [[User:Soccerpirate4]] [[P1_Owners]]
Jul 09 04:59:00 <cjb> KDE: 16963
Jul 09 04:59:07 <cjb> linux_galore: I just did
Jul 09 04:59:08 <anrp> postgres is a very good oss enterprise-ish sql solution
Jul 09 04:59:15 <linux_galore> cjb: thats not a study
Jul 09 04:59:42 <cjb> linux_galore: dude, yours was a web poll, which are notoriously reliable
Jul 09 04:59:53 <cjb> linux_galore: mine was a list of how many individual computers have which packages installed
Jul 09 04:59:56 <anrp> and would be more than enough as a storage backend
Jul 09 04:59:58 <cjb> linux_galore: which of these shall we trust more?
Jul 09 05:00:03 <linux_galore> cjb: the last open questionaire i saw showed KDE was the most used
Jul 09 05:00:06 <anrp> although i think openmoko settles on libdb?
Jul 09 05:00:09 <anrp> or was it sqlite?
Jul 09 05:00:36 <cjb> linux_galore: it was wrong, HTH, HAND.
Jul 09 05:01:00 <anrp> cmon guys help me out here ~_~ 
Jul 09 05:01:07 <anrp> drown them out D:
Jul 09 05:01:08 <linux_galore> cjb: also gnome apps are not as integrated as kde stuff, often kde packages also include allot of built in support were with gnome its more spread out
Jul 09 05:01:31 <cjb> linux_galore: isn't that a reason that the KDE numbers should have been *higher* than they were?
Jul 09 05:01:36 <cjb> I don't understand what your point is.
Jul 09 05:02:03 <aloril> OpenMoko hits /.: http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/07/07/09/0049249.shtml
Jul 09 05:02:15 <aloril> or should I say Neo1973 ;-)
Jul 09 05:02:15 <anrp> about time
Jul 09 05:02:31 <anrp> well.. not necessarily a good thing in terms of expectations
Jul 09 05:02:34 <linux_galore> cjb: ok KDE has a think called "core applications" you dont install these seperately like with Gnome they are all packed into a handful of packages
Jul 09 05:02:34 <anrp> but publicity is good
Jul 09 05:02:40 <linux_galore> thing*
Jul 09 05:03:10 <cjb> linux_galore: the Debian figures are from the base packages
Jul 09 05:03:35 <cjb> linux_galore: so all you're doing is suggesting that the GNOME numbers should be *higher* than they are already, because people in GNOME install individual packages separately.
Jul 09 05:03:37 <linux_galore> cjb: yes but your ignoring the fact gnome breaks up its core apps into seperate packages kde doesnt
Jul 09 05:04:23 <cjb> ...
Jul 09 05:05:14 <galexande> you know, one real innovation in the iphone is the screen which is level with its bezels, so there isn't some ridge around it, it slopes away smoothly to become the edge of the phone
Jul 09 05:05:22 <linux_galore> cjb: all the fsking plugins in gnome are rediculous kde = 1 package the whole lot
Jul 09 05:05:24 <anrp> yeah
Jul 09 05:05:26 <galexande> every reviewer mentions it, and it's (so far as i know) totally original, you don't even see that on star trek
Jul 09 05:05:32 <anrp> that's hard to do with a touchscreen
Jul 09 05:05:35 <cjb> linux_galore: I no longer know what point you're trying to make.
Jul 09 05:05:39 <galexande> like, you do on the control panels, but not on their handheld devices :)
Jul 09 05:05:43 <anrp> since you need to integrate the screen with whoever's making the case
Jul 09 05:05:50 <anrp> instead of seperate source
Jul 09 05:05:52 <cjb> galexande: That provides very little shielding against a drop.
Jul 09 05:06:04 <galexande> anrp, yeah, it's an honestly difficult thing to do
Jul 09 05:06:08 <galexande> cjb, true but
Jul 09 05:06:16 <cjb> with the Neo, dropping it on the TFT side down will not break the TFT.
Jul 09 05:06:18 <pa-ching> Cool, how is it connected?
Jul 09 05:06:20 <cjb> bet it would if it were flush.
Jul 09 05:06:39 <galexande> only time will tell
Jul 09 05:06:40 <anrp> anyone dropping the neo on purpose to test that deserves to be shot
Jul 09 05:06:41 <anrp> ;/
Jul 09 05:06:52 <anrp> in the foot, but shot nonetheless
Jul 09 05:06:53 <galexande> it's a cellphone, it's lucky if it doesn't get thrown
Jul 09 05:06:55 <pa-ching> Just really nice tolerances... a little epoxy...?
Jul 09 05:07:16 <anrp> clear epoxy with the right index of refraction is likely impossible to find
Jul 09 05:07:18 <linux_galore> cjb: ok lets compare gstreamer 187 packages  kde =2  phones + phonon-extraplugins
Jul 09 05:07:21 <galexande> pa-ching, beats me, the only takeapart i saw didn't get to removing the PCB from the display
Jul 09 05:07:33 <linux_galore> s/phones/phonon/
Jul 09 05:07:34 <anrp> actually..
Jul 09 05:07:34 <apt> linux_galore meant: cjb: ok lets compare gstreamer 187 packages  kde =2  phonon + phonon-extraplugins
Jul 09 05:07:38 <anrp> you know what, now that i think about it
Jul 09 05:07:44 <cjb> linux_galore: .. I just don't understand what you think the comparison means.
Jul 09 05:07:46 <anrp> there's no reason it can't be seperate source
Jul 09 05:07:58 <anrp> iphone uses a capacitive display, which works through acrylic or lexan, etc
Jul 09 05:07:59 <cjb> How did we end up debating the aesthetics of package management?  Why is it relevant?
Jul 09 05:08:24 <linux_galore> cjb: because Gnome stuff has 10 packages were 1 is only needed in KDE
Jul 09 05:08:29 <cjb> ...
Jul 09 05:08:33 <anrp> most touchscreens (almost any for a dead stylus) are resistive and need the special outside layer
Jul 09 05:08:34 <linux_galore> for exactly the same thing
Jul 09 05:08:40 <cjb> that doesn't answer why it's relevant.  why does it matter?
Jul 09 05:08:44 <anrp> but a capacitive display can be flush easily (i have a tablet pc that's so)
Jul 09 05:08:59 <linux_galore> cjb: means counting packages means nothing
Jul 09 05:09:06 <cjb> I wasn't counting packages
Jul 09 05:09:08 <cjb> you misunderstood
Jul 09 05:09:17 <cjb> I was counting the number of *users* that have the *core package* for each desktop installed
Jul 09 05:09:19 <anrp> capacitive is harder to get right, and also needs integration into the display
Jul 09 05:09:27 <anrp> but it doesn't have the sensitive outside layer
Jul 09 05:09:32 <anrp> and allows seperate source case
Jul 09 05:09:38 <cjb> ie. twice as many people use GNOME as use KDE
Jul 09 05:09:41 <cjb> under Debian
Jul 09 05:09:56 <cjb> and we know this because there's a tool to report which packages you have installed, and lots of people use it
Jul 09 05:10:04 <linux_galore> cjb: this is for debian who historically have always been shite for KDE, wow how am I suprised
Jul 09 05:10:24 * cjb rolls eyes.
Jul 09 05:10:28 <unknown_lamer> uh that hasn't been true since kde2 was released
Jul 09 05:10:37 <unknown_lamer> I know I've been using debian since ~2000
Jul 09 05:10:46 <unknown_lamer> and I used to use kde before becoming a real nerd
Jul 09 05:10:54 <anrp> don't get sucked into the trap !!
Jul 09 05:10:56 <unknown_lamer> or rather a very strange nerd
Jul 09 05:10:56 <linux_galore> unknown_lamer: Im using debian and kde their setup is just rubbish
Jul 09 05:11:03 <cjb> ooh, subtle put-down comparison, awesome.
Jul 09 05:11:08 <unknown_lamer> /ignore troll
Jul 09 05:11:15 <Clint> linux_galore: did you file bugs about it?
Jul 09 05:11:34 <anrp> ...
Jul 09 05:11:45 <linux_galore> Clint: yes as in my knetwork manager isnt working, konqueror crashes on flash
Jul 09 05:12:15 <fo0bar> linux_galore: perhaps someone messed up your local installation
Jul 09 05:12:17 <unknown_lamer> one app and a proprietary plugin that is known to be filled with bugs
Jul 09 05:12:24 <cjb> linux_galore: you think networkmanager works for the rest of us?  :)
Jul 09 05:12:33 <Chairboy> From the slashdot thread: "Wake me when it syncs with iTunes and automatically pulls my contacts, music, movies, TV shows, and calendar."  While some of these might seem dumb to us ("He's totally ignoring the fact that you can use apt-get from YOUR PHONE!"), it's an example of the kind of things that folks might want that aren't on the radar.  Just a blip from /.
Jul 09 05:12:34 * unknown_lamer doesn't like gui apps
Jul 09 05:12:36 <unknown_lamer> too hard to use on lsd
Jul 09 05:12:48 <linux_galore> Clint: I must have posted half a dozen bug for kontact now some are so stupid ie icons not setup properly causing things to crash
Jul 09 05:12:56 <anrp> lol
Jul 09 05:12:57 <unknown_lamer> Chairboy: my neo will pull my cal automagically from emacs
Jul 09 05:13:00 <anrp> lsd, eh
Jul 09 05:13:05 <galexande> the only thing you need to operate on lsd is a bong, though
Jul 09 05:13:07 <anrp> few phones cater to that market
Jul 09 05:13:11 <pa-ching> Less GUI, more DWIM! :)
Jul 09 05:13:14 <linux_galore> Clint: Kubuntu = everthing works
Jul 09 05:13:18 <unknown_lamer> Chairboy: once I get one a few weeks in and bbdb import and such should be supported
Jul 09 05:13:48 <unknown_lamer> anrp: all it needs is a command line. It is easy to tell the machine what to do
Jul 09 05:13:49 <anrp> will it be easy to use? will it work? is it tested? supported? </devils-advocate>
Jul 09 05:13:53 <unknown_lamer> xmms -e /music/...
Jul 09 05:13:59 <unknown_lamer> versus click shit the mouse just moved on its own
Jul 09 05:14:21 <Clint> linux_galore: i don't see your bug reports
Jul 09 05:14:24 <anrp> the neo1973 probably can do everything listed there
Jul 09 05:14:28 <Chairboy> Unknown_lamer: Good strategy, ignore "flash in the pan" apps like iTunes and Outlook and stick with time tested apps like emacs.  
Jul 09 05:14:29 <anrp> ...but! it lacks polish
Jul 09 05:14:37 <Chairboy> :D
Jul 09 05:14:50 <unknown_lamer> Chairboy: they are useless to me because I use emacs
Jul 09 05:14:59 <linux_galore> anyway Im off
Jul 09 05:14:59 <unknown_lamer> Chairboy: I enjoy being able to keep the same setup everywhere and use my desktop remotely
Jul 09 05:15:00 <anrp> and if it doesn't work with windows well, it won't have mass market appeal as a smartphone
Jul 09 05:15:03 <anrp> as a normal phone... maybe
Jul 09 05:15:05 <unknown_lamer> the whole "never have to quit emacs" is nice too
Jul 09 05:15:13 <unknown_lamer> especially with multitty and emacsclient that you can eval code with
Jul 09 05:15:19 <anrp> an emacs user! kill im!
Jul 09 05:15:26 <anrp> *cough*
Jul 09 05:15:30 <unknown_lamer> that = emacs in screen + script to make-frame-on-display if I want to attach over the lan
Jul 09 05:15:33 <Chairboy> UL: That's great for you, but just a thought, the more people that can use it out of the box, the more likely it is to sell well.
Jul 09 05:15:44 <unknown_lamer> Chairboy: other people can hack on that?
Jul 09 05:15:50 <unknown_lamer> I'm interested in making it work for me :-)
Jul 09 05:15:51 <anrp> no
Jul 09 05:15:55 <anrp> you're missing the point
Jul 09 05:16:05 <anrp> other people *won't* hack on the mass market version
Jul 09 05:16:10 <anrp> so it has to work out of the box
Jul 09 05:16:17 <Chairboy> Yep
Jul 09 05:16:19 <Chairboy> anrp++
Jul 09 05:16:25 <cjb> unknown_lamer: fwiw, I'm also using emacs/multitty right now :)
Jul 09 05:16:30 <cjb> but anrp is correct.
Jul 09 05:16:34 <unknown_lamer> I'm guessing someone else will make that work then
Jul 09 05:16:43 <anrp> and that's the attitude that will cause it to fail
Jul 09 05:16:43 <poffy> I was hoping on getting polishing stuff done too. Too bad I don't have 300 right now :(
Jul 09 05:16:46 <unknown_lamer> but you can't force me to hack on unfun things :-)
Jul 09 05:16:47 <anrp> cmon, seriously!
Jul 09 05:17:00 <unknown_lamer> ok I should volunteer my time to a. learn apps I don't use b. write code to support apps I don'
Jul 09 05:17:01 <unknown_lamer> t use
Jul 09 05:17:10 <anrp> you can do whatever you want with it
Jul 09 05:17:13 <anrp> that is the point after all
Jul 09 05:17:22 <unknown_lamer> I'm fairly certain other people will add support for the fancy stuff
Jul 09 05:17:29 <anrp> i'm just saying it won't have much appeal to non hackers if noone does the "fancy stuff"
Jul 09 05:17:38 <anrp> which is considered basic functionality by the nonhackers
Jul 09 05:17:52 <Chairboy> With volunteer projects, there's no way to force anyone to do anything.  My concerns are from the project management standpoint, I just hope that the folks setting project priorities are aware of these things and ocnsidering them when suggesting priorities.
Jul 09 05:18:09 <aloril> last night nick count record in this channel: 318 nicks, previous was 289 nicks at 2007-07-06
Jul 09 05:18:12 <unknown_lamer> cjb: heh I think it is time for emacs23 almost :-) multitty + xft + unicode-2 is a *lot* of new stuff already
Jul 09 05:18:39 <linux_galore> theres a question, I wonder if FIC have got the phones approved ie to pass the WEEE regs for consumer goods
Jul 09 05:18:50 <anrp> its probably rohs compliant
Jul 09 05:18:57 <anrp> its hard not to be unless you build in the US
Jul 09 05:19:30 <linux_galore> we had to swap all our production over last year, serious pain the the rear to do
Jul 09 05:19:32 <anrp> not that i agree with rohs, lead in solder was put there for a reason
Jul 09 05:20:33 <linux_galore> yeah, flux/lead being changed/removed has lead to some nasty problem, ie XBOX360's high failure rate is a direct consequence 
Jul 09 05:20:45 <anrp> lead is ductile, tin is not
Jul 09 05:20:49 <anrp> its' pretty simple
Jul 09 05:21:05 <anrp> sn/ag/cu mixes can do alright, but sn/pb really worked well
Jul 09 05:21:12 <Chairboy> Also delicious.
Jul 09 05:21:19 <anrp> lead is sweet from what i hear
Jul 09 05:21:21 <linux_galore> anrp: we dont use tin, we use some silver stuff
Jul 09 05:21:26 <anrp> no experience there though
Jul 09 05:21:28 <anrp> uh..
Jul 09 05:21:38 <anrp> yes you use tin, lead free solder is almost always tin base
Jul 09 05:21:43 <linux_galore> Im trying to remember he name of the stuff we use
Jul 09 05:21:52 <anrp> you can get exotic mixes that use bismuth.. maybe
Jul 09 05:22:03 <linux_galore> its got a weird name
Jul 09 05:22:03 <anrp> but every single lead-free solder 75%+ tin
Jul 09 05:22:07 <anrp> *is
Jul 09 05:22:17 <linux_galore> we tried tin but is causes allot of problems
Jul 09 05:22:21 <linux_galore> it*
Jul 09 05:22:31 <anrp> well. alright, there are likely non tin workflows
Jul 09 05:22:32 <carrar> that ccc camp looks fun, too bad I don't speak german
Jul 09 05:22:40 <anrp> but they're probably even more problematic than lead-free
Jul 09 05:22:51 <anrp> yeah, it does look neat
Jul 09 05:23:01 <carrar> would totally be a hit here in the states
Jul 09 05:23:06 <linux_galore> anrp: no our faulure rates have been the same as the lead stuff
Jul 09 05:23:13 <linux_galore> failure*
Jul 09 05:23:13 <carrar> geek version of burning man
Jul 09 05:23:16 <anrp> then you're doing it right
Jul 09 05:23:26 <anrp> do you deploy to below freezing environments?
Jul 09 05:23:29 <linux_galore> anrp: took them 14 months to get it right
Jul 09 05:24:33 <linux_galore> anrp: we have installs in Northern Russia and high humidity places like pacific resorts 
Jul 09 05:24:45 <anrp> i meant the operating temperature
Jul 09 05:25:06 <linux_galore> anrp: its pretty wide but not much beyond -15
Jul 09 05:25:07 <anrp> i'm sure there are datacenters in singapore (1deg north) that are very cold, but that doesn't really mean anything
Jul 09 05:25:16 <linux_galore> C
Jul 09 05:25:18 <anrp> what is it?
Jul 09 05:25:22 <anrp> environmental sensing?
Jul 09 05:25:25 <linux_galore> let me look it up
Jul 09 05:25:35 <anrp> probably a sensor of some sort..
Jul 09 05:25:41 <linux_galore> anrp: ooh our kit is telecomunications
Jul 09 05:25:58 <linux_galore> ie telephones, repeaters etc
Jul 09 05:26:05 <anrp> mm
Jul 09 05:26:12 <anrp> i'd be interested in knowing what solder blend you're using
Jul 09 05:26:24 <anrp> but..! again, this has no relation to openmoko :-)
Jul 09 05:26:48 <linux_galore> anrp: doubt they will tell me Im in marketing and around here its a need to know thing
Jul 09 05:26:53 <anrp> figures
Jul 09 05:28:07 <roh> carrar there will be many international visitors on the camp. the ccc wants it to be international and thus if possible also workshops and speeches are english. only in some cases its really better someone speaks native languanges before nobody understands it
Jul 09 05:28:26 <linux_galore> anrp: al I know is they used Germany as the experimental base for installs because they had already enforced a defacto weee-like standards environment
Jul 09 05:28:33 <anrp> heh
Jul 09 05:29:12 <anrp> weee... sounds like wiiii!
Jul 09 05:29:14 <anrp> yes, i know
Jul 09 05:29:44 <anrp> roh: true, but it's still far away from the us :/ europe has an actual rail system that doesn't suck
Jul 09 05:29:58 <linux_galore> stupid name I must agree, some swedish pen pusher on crack must have created that name
Jul 09 05:29:59 <anrp> so its more accessible to you
Jul 09 05:30:22 <anrp> japan has an amazing rail system but that's japan
Jul 09 05:30:29 <carrar> so far to pack all my stuff :)
Jul 09 05:30:30 <anrp> italy's is pretty good
Jul 09 05:30:37 <mil__> you can fly there by plane :D but the camp 3 years ahead in the netherland would also worth the trip, maybe even more ;)
Jul 09 05:30:39 <carrar> I love Japan
Jul 09 05:30:44 <carrar> was just there not long ago
Jul 09 05:30:57 <anrp> yeah, i went some time ago, about a month
Jul 09 05:30:58 <linux_galore> anrp: fastest train in the world in Japan, ie the meglev
Jul 09 05:31:06 <anrp> also went to singapore .. holy christ, humid
Jul 09 05:31:12 <linux_galore> +500km/h 
Jul 09 05:31:14 <carrar> going again in 6-12 months
Jul 09 05:31:19 <anrp> lucky D:
Jul 09 05:31:27 <anrp> i had business in sg, so i stopped in japan on the way
Jul 09 05:31:33 <anrp> its halfway around the world for me
Jul 09 05:31:40 <anrp> a bloody long trip
Jul 09 05:31:55 <carrar> <- seattle
Jul 09 05:31:57 <carrar> same here
Jul 09 05:32:02 <anrp> that would make you 5 hours closer :P
Jul 09 05:32:03 <linux_galore> there is a video on youtube of someone taking ride on the Japanese maglev
Jul 09 05:32:06 <carrar> long flight
Jul 09 05:32:15 <carrar> less long :)
Jul 09 05:32:21 <anrp> i had a 24 hour trip to go from boston -> sg
Jul 09 05:32:25 <anrp> that truly sucked
Jul 09 05:32:43 <carrar> 11 hour flight from seattle
Jul 09 05:32:47 <carrar> err 10
Jul 09 05:32:48 <anrp> i guess i could have gone to australia ...
Jul 09 05:32:51 <anrp> that would be a bit worse
Jul 09 05:32:51 <carrar> somewhere in there
Jul 09 05:32:53 * anrp shudders
Jul 09 05:33:05 <linux_galore> trans-pacific flights seriously suck
Jul 09 05:33:24 <carrar> All I remember is 4 in flight movies
Jul 09 05:33:27 <carrar> heh
Jul 09 05:33:50 <linux_galore> I go nuts after 4 hours so I take sleeping pills
Jul 09 05:34:10 <anrp> i took a half kilowatt hour of lithium
Jul 09 05:34:14 <anrp> that worked for me
Jul 09 05:34:22 <linux_galore> yeah
Jul 09 05:34:26 <linux_galore> lol
Jul 09 05:34:56 <linux_galore> anrp: your ahir not growing for weeks must be a downer
Jul 09 05:34:59 <linux_galore> hair*
Jul 09 05:35:06 <anrp> D;
Jul 09 05:36:00 <linux_galore> well I went from Sydney to London last feb, god I hate that more than going to USA
Jul 09 05:36:37 <linux_galore> Sydney to HK is about my mental limit for sitting in a metal tube
Jul 09 05:43:24 <linux_galore> that and the weather was miserable in London
Jul 09 05:44:04 <linux_galore> I better go just got a call
Jul 09 05:47:09 <daMaestro> wow.. the site is still getting pounded
Jul 09 05:47:22 <anrp>  /. tends to do that
Jul 09 05:51:00 <daMaestro> yeah.
Jul 09 05:51:02 <daMaestro> i just read
Jul 09 05:51:11 <daMaestro> the only thing that is online is the mailing list archive :-)
Jul 09 05:51:36 <daMaestro> it seemed to me that the openmoko.com site was static, so i figured it would perform as well as, say, a mailman archive
Jul 09 05:51:52 <daMaestro> the wiki is pounded too right now
Jul 09 05:52:37 <daMaestro> oh well... we can still use the https://direct.openmoko.com/ ... so if anyone knows about this channel.. they can still buy
Jul 09 05:53:08 <mil__> how many are sold allready?
Jul 09 05:56:47 <darwin81> Holy Crap! This project is gaining a lot of momentum. I hope by the time the mass market version is released the general public will realize that this is the true revolutionary phone , not the HypePhone.
Jul 09 05:58:03 <mil__> darwin81: arm os10 holy crap :/
Jul 09 05:58:48 <darwin81> huh?
Jul 09 06:01:56 <juri_> so, openmoko.com is out. ;)
Jul 09 06:02:07 <xkr47> aloril, I think /. also hit openmoko :)
Jul 09 06:02:23 <aloril> xkr47: yup (already noticed if you scroll up;-)
Jul 09 06:02:48 <xkr47> yeah except you said openmoko it /. :)
Jul 09 06:02:54 <hads> See topic if you want to buy.
Jul 09 06:02:58 <aloril> and it shows: site doesn't load now (myself of course made it now once/h instead ofevery 5 minutes)
Jul 09 06:03:26 * xkr47 placed an order, but my mailserver has greyfilting enabled and it seems the confirmation mail doesn't get retried
Jul 09 06:03:32 <aloril> yeah, that link works still
Jul 09 06:03:54 <hads> xkr47: It might just be slow.
Jul 09 06:04:12 <xkr47> it sent the first attempt (seen in the syslog) immediately..
Jul 09 06:04:14 * juri_ tries to buy.
Jul 09 06:04:25 <aloril> hads: well, he ordered several hours ago, it wasn't /.: at that time (though I think it had hit digg at that point)
Jul 09 06:04:40 <hads> I've only ever had exchange not retry for greylisting, but some others can take hours.
Jul 09 06:04:46 <xkr47> hads, yeah I ordered 6 hours ago
Jul 09 06:05:12 <hads> aloril: It's been slow since 9am this morning (UTC+12)
Jul 09 06:05:14 <xkr47> hads, ok let's hope they don't have some too hacky perl script there :)
Jul 09 06:05:37 <daMaestro> that's sure what it looks like
Jul 09 06:05:49 <aloril> hads: hmm... OK, but I got my confirmation mail quite fast
Jul 09 06:05:55 <hads> xkr47: It's RT that's sending them so it could be unless it passes off to a mail server first :)
Jul 09 06:05:56 <daMaestro> returning blank pages if you don't use two capital letters for a state
Jul 09 06:05:58 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 09 06:06:11 <hads> daMaestro: Yeah the error checking is dodgy.
Jul 09 06:06:21 <daMaestro> oh well.. i got my order in ;-)
Jul 09 06:06:21 <xkr47> :)
Jul 09 06:06:22 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 09 06:06:38 <xkr47> NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from internal.openmoko.org[88.198.93.220]: 450 ....
Jul 09 06:06:45 <ljp> lets hope the openmoko developers arent the ones that also develop the web site
Jul 09 06:07:01 <anrp> aren't?
Jul 09 06:07:08 <aloril> will it take day or week before 1000 units have sold? (I guess they will start producing more so maybe it doesn't actually run out if it takes a week to sell 1000 units)
Jul 09 06:07:13 <xkr47> anyway, they have my information, and I don't think my order will get rejected even if the email doesn't show up
Jul 09 06:07:17 <anrp> actually, i would almost argue otherwise, the website is well presented
Jul 09 06:07:28 <anrp> it may be slow but most things are with a /.
Jul 09 06:07:43 <daMaestro> i thought the openmoko.com site looked great
Jul 09 06:07:58 <xkr47> the web site is very nicely done, I agree
Jul 09 06:08:13 <anrp> there are a couple polish things that i noticed... but since i'm a dev, i don't care D:
Jul 09 06:08:28 <hads> xkr47: roh was kind enough to check the order list manually for someone earlier today so he may do the same for you if you catch him when he's around.
Jul 09 06:08:54 <daMaestro> the one thing that i really would have liked to see is a non-self signed cert
Jul 09 06:09:08 <daMaestro> even a CACert.org signed cert would have been better
Jul 09 06:09:35 <ynezz> wiki seems to be on same server like moko.com :p
Jul 09 06:09:47 <hads> daMaestro: roh was also going to sort out a CACert cert for the site I believe as someone else brought it to his attention.
Jul 09 06:09:57 <aloril> hmm.. same IP for openmoko.com and direct.openmoko.com but direct is still faster? 
Jul 09 06:10:00 <xkr47> I have my phone number listed as well and I checked all addresses and credit card info as well.. so they should be able to get it done.. and after all if they try sending mail with any normal mail client, it will come through..
Jul 09 06:10:24 <xkr47> daMaestro, true
Jul 09 06:10:32 <ynezz> whats the latest # ?
Jul 09 06:10:35 <ynezz> +-
Jul 09 06:10:50 <roh> ouchies...
Jul 09 06:10:59 * roh is fighting apache atm... 
Jul 09 06:11:11 <hads> Ouch, good luck roh 
Jul 09 06:11:15 <daMaestro> aloril, normally the https and http daemons have their own resources
Jul 09 06:11:30 <aloril> daMaestro: I guess that explains it then
Jul 09 06:11:40 <daMaestro> roh, just have it kill threads very, very often.... and use mod_cache with mod_mem_cache enabled
Jul 09 06:11:52 * aloril guesses they are busy, still reads: 266HZ Samsung System on a Chip (SOC)
Jul 09 06:11:56 <daMaestro> roh, ooorrrrr.... bring a squid up.. and then just use mod_proxy to the squid
Jul 09 06:11:56 <aloril> (note missing M)
Jul 09 06:12:37 <daMaestro> roh, are you seeing more RAM usage per thread? or more CPU? what threading model is in use?
Jul 09 06:12:46 * daMaestro <-- on fedora infrastructure team
Jul 09 06:12:53 <daMaestro> we managed to not go down for the f7 release
Jul 09 06:14:45 <anrp> what?
Jul 09 06:14:51 <daMaestro> who?
Jul 09 06:14:56 <anrp> you dare question the power of /.!?
Jul 09 06:15:10 <daMaestro> no, not at all
Jul 09 06:15:22 <daMaestro> i was more offering up my help; but take it as you wish
Jul 09 06:15:36 <anrp> ;/
Jul 09 06:15:38 <Stephmw>  /. doesn't seem to have noticed the slashdotting yet... ;)
Jul 09 06:15:55 <anrp> its 2am est, 11pm pst... not too many usians awake
Jul 09 06:16:38 <daMaestro> my point is that it is obviously not a networking issues
Jul 09 06:16:42 <daMaestro> issue*
Jul 09 06:16:55 <aloril> counter_msg (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in
Jul 09 06:16:55 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 
Jul 09 06:18:25 <xkr47> nice, I didn't know a stylus was included int he base kit
Jul 09 06:18:41 <daMaestro> yeah, it's got a nice pimp'n case too
Jul 09 06:18:43 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 09 06:18:56 <daMaestro> the lanyard is a nice touch too
Jul 09 06:20:44 <anrp> shipping prob?
Jul 09 06:21:54 <florit> good evening
Jul 09 06:22:15 <aloril> anrp: for that week, it could be earlier or later
Jul 09 06:22:48 <aloril> counter
Jul 09 06:22:48 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, 3 days 05:37:07 (10.234±3.0 days) (1721;246)
Jul 09 06:23:09 <aloril> see londerings page for *guesses*
Jul 09 06:23:13 <anrp> ...
Jul 09 06:23:23 <anrp> probabilities, heh
Jul 09 06:25:32 <florit> anyone play with a OM yet?
Jul 09 06:25:33 <aloril> florit: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 06:26:58 <aloril> florit: many, with Neo1973 less but still probably more than 10 persons present of those too
Jul 09 06:27:31 <florit> probably a repeat/dumb question, but how does it compare to an iphone?
Jul 09 06:27:40 <anrp> it fails, utterly
Jul 09 06:27:44 <anrp> thats where the devs come in
Jul 09 06:27:46 <anrp> to make it great
Jul 09 06:27:53 <florit> *nod*
Jul 09 06:27:57 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone
Jul 09 06:28:16 <aloril> or for current version actually: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone_%28GTA01%29
Jul 09 06:28:40 <xkr47> anrp, allow me to be subjective on that one :)
Jul 09 06:28:53 <anrp> mm?
Jul 09 06:29:07 * aloril wonders if 2007-07-19 is the date when I have one in hand
Jul 09 06:29:25 <aloril> anrp: umm.. you mean iPhone fails utterly ;-)
Jul 09 06:29:30 <anrp> it will
Jul 09 06:29:33 <anrp> but that's future
Jul 09 06:29:39 <anrp> first we have to get better
Jul 09 06:29:49 <aloril> its already better for me ;-)
Jul 09 06:30:19 <anrp> for the devs, it is
Jul 09 06:30:37 <anrp> i also think its better than the iphone, but i am not typical, and neither are most of us
Jul 09 06:31:16 <florit> I'm a linux user and fan, but I've not done dev in a while, and doubt i'll have the time to roll my own os for the phone (unfortunately)
Jul 09 06:31:41 <daMaestro> filing bugs needs to be done too ;-)
Jul 09 06:31:41 <aloril> anrp: yeah, for end user iPhone is better now
Jul 09 06:32:37 <florit> hehe :)
Jul 09 06:32:52 <ozamosi> aloril: which end user? :P
Jul 09 06:32:55 <florit> wifi not available on the current pass? :)
Jul 09 06:33:20 <aloril> ozamosi: somebody who has never used computers and has not used mobile phones too and is scared
Jul 09 06:33:21 <anrp> sadly
Jul 09 06:33:23 <aloril> ;-)
Jul 09 06:33:37 <aloril> wifi?
Jul 09 06:33:37 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 09 06:33:55 <florit> bummer.
Jul 09 06:34:25 <mil__> a usb dongle?
Jul 09 06:34:27 * daMaestro turns off his laptop
Jul 09 06:34:47 <CM> mil__: It's an unpowered usb host on the neo
Jul 09 06:34:48 <anrp> that woudl be the epitome of bizzare
Jul 09 06:35:20 <anrp> "Here's a wifi enabled mobile phone... and by wifi enabled, we mean you can plug in a usb card half the size of the device"
Jul 09 06:35:35 <anrp> itll be hard to really develop wifi apps without wifi
Jul 09 06:35:38 <anrp> but there you go :/
Jul 09 06:35:47 <mil__> CM: got a battery powered usb hub installed in my bag :)
Jul 09 06:35:58 <CM> mil__: Oh, cool :D
Jul 09 06:36:55 <florit> hrm.  OK.  I'm a fan, but there is plenty left to do before this is consumer level..
Jul 09 06:37:29 <florit> i appreciate the info... thank you. :)  Good luck! 
Jul 09 06:37:43 <guerby> hmm no email with order number after 10 hours, I guess something went wrong with my order...
Jul 09 06:37:50 <lindi-> the non-free gpsd was the first negative thing that caught my eye :(
Jul 09 06:38:14 <anrp> unsurprising really
Jul 09 06:38:18 <anrp> not that that's a good thing
Jul 09 06:38:19 <CM> guerby: I got the automatic store confirmation mail within a minute last night
Jul 09 06:38:31 <anrp> but to get to the same level as the gsm hardware, the gps chipset would need to be bigger
Jul 09 06:38:42 <anrp> since it would have to have its own processor to extract pvt 
Jul 09 06:38:46 <guerby> CM, on the wiki page nearly everyone has the number
Jul 09 06:38:51 <mil__> florit: there's a shell + usb, bluetooth and wifi. do you need more? ;)
Jul 09 06:39:21 <CM> guerby: xkr47's mail didn't arrive either. Probably stuck in some mail filter
Jul 09 06:39:26 <anrp> it would also consume more power
Jul 09 06:39:32 <guerby> CM, I'll wait a bit more
Jul 09 06:39:39 <jonkristian> Hmm, I wonder, will there be an upgrade option when the mass market model comes out in october?
Jul 09 06:39:56 * aloril thinks it did go this way: if you got in really fast: all well, then there was 1h rush, then lull for hour or 2 maybe, then rush again
Jul 09 06:39:57 <CM> jonkristian: No, you'll have to buy the next version of the phone
Jul 09 06:40:14 <xkr47> I'm guessing the default notification mail sending is not very robust :P
Jul 09 06:40:23 <aloril> so if you were really fast or slightly slow you got mail just fine
Jul 09 06:41:29 <jonkristian> CM: ok, thanks.
Jul 09 06:41:39 <aloril> lindi-: hopefully GPS part will be reverse engineered, efforts are progressing
Jul 09 06:42:21 <lindi-> aloril: i'm just wondering why gps was included in the first place if no free solution was found :/
Jul 09 06:42:32 <aloril> jonkristian: well, there *might* be option to buy GTA02 without case and display ... but that is just *might*
Jul 09 06:43:00 <xkr47> how is the display connected, can one "easily" remove it ?
Jul 09 06:43:08 <xkr47> or is there 200 soldered pins ?
Jul 09 06:43:15 <aloril> lindi-: its user space library, not kernel module so I guess it was not showstopper for laforge
Jul 09 06:43:17 <anrp> fpc iirc
Jul 09 06:43:20 <jonkristian> aloril: Only thing that stops me from buying it now is the lack of wifi
Jul 09 06:43:33 <lindi-> aloril: it doesn't really matter to me where it is :)
Jul 09 06:43:46 * aloril also suspects hardware was done before laforge was brought on board
Jul 09 06:43:47 <Tronic> hi lindi- 
Jul 09 06:43:56 <lindi-> Tronic: evening, er, morning
Jul 09 06:44:28 <jonkristian> And $140 shipping to norway, wow, hehe
Jul 09 06:44:49 <aloril> lindi-: just wait until its reverse engineered or some future device with free GPS driver 
Jul 09 06:45:01 <xkr47> editing wiki is slow.. :)
Jul 09 06:45:25 <CM> aloril: Koen said that gta01 hw design was outsourced, but gta02 was done all in-house
Jul 09 06:45:49 <CM> aloril: And I guess LaF0rge was involved a lot in that
Jul 09 06:46:07 <aloril> CM: yes, but hammerhead comes from gta01 ;-)
Jul 09 06:46:23 <CM> aloril: Heh, true.. 
Jul 09 06:46:27 <aloril> CM: and if rumors are true, then GTA02 actually might have free driver
Jul 09 06:46:36 <CM> Would be great
Jul 09 06:46:39 <aloril> (or is it about GTA03?)
Jul 09 06:47:21 <aloril> hopefully not much difference in chip itself (claims are that hh is quite good)
Jul 09 06:47:43 <TRIsoft> morning
Jul 09 06:47:52 <aloril> morning TRIsoft 
Jul 09 06:47:58 <dkirker> Hi. It seems that there is some misinformation on the wiki.
Jul 09 06:48:09 <aloril> dkirker: where?
Jul 09 06:48:16 <dkirker> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Can_PalmOS_apps_applications_be_ported_to_run_on_OpenMoko.3F
Jul 09 06:48:29 <dkirker> Regarding the Foleo and "POSE" in ALP.
Jul 09 06:48:59 <aloril> dkirker: feel free to fix it (I don't know about those)
Jul 09 06:49:25 <dkirker> AFAIK, the Foleo will *NOT* run Palm applications and ALP will use GHost
Jul 09 06:49:37 <dkirker> but yeah, I'll edit
Jul 09 06:49:59 <roh> For the prefork MPM, this directive sets the maximum configured value for MaxClients for the lifetime of the Apache process. For the worker MPM, this directive in combination with ThreadLimit sets the maximum configured value for MaxClients for the lifetime of the Apache process. Any attempts to change this directive during a restart will be ignored, but MaxClients can be modified during a restart.
Jul 09 06:50:09 <roh> eek..,. sorry
Jul 09 06:51:50 <mashi99> what is the difference between base model and advance model ?
Jul 09 06:51:51 <aloril> mashi99: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 06:52:07 <CM> mashi99: It says in the store
Jul 09 06:52:07 * aloril wishes /. article had said about it being for developers (ie.. software not being ready yet)
Jul 09 06:52:36 <aloril> and FAQ too should answer which one you need
Jul 09 06:54:10 <mashi99> errr.. advance come with jtag I guess..
Jul 09 06:54:24 <mashi99> 640x480 sound promising
Jul 09 06:54:54 <CM> mashi99: It's the same phone in both, but yes, a jtag debug board
Jul 09 06:55:28 <mashi99> CM : I know same phone.. but I think advance come with jtag. that's how u can unbrick your phone
Jul 09 06:56:10 <CM> mashi99: Yes. But unless you really screw up uboot, you won't brick it :)
Jul 09 06:56:37 <mashi99> yeah.. the developer version really barebone compare to the mass market :(
Jul 09 06:56:46 <CM> I'm sure there will be loads of bricked phones anyway
Jul 09 06:57:02 <mashi99> lol
Jul 09 06:57:07 <CM> Wouldn't be suprised if I managed to brick mine too some time. :P
Jul 09 06:57:18 <mashi99> the cpu is 266 or 400MHz ?
Jul 09 06:57:29 <CM> 266 in these p1's
Jul 09 06:57:42 <sixfeet> moin ihrz
Jul 09 06:57:44 <CM> And no wifi or accelerometers
Jul 09 06:57:51 <mashi99> i know.. 
Jul 09 06:58:01 <mashi99> that's what i concert.. 
Jul 09 06:59:11 <mashi99> btw i don't have linux box anymore.. running OSX. damn
Jul 09 06:59:12 <hads> mashi99: Debugboard, 2 x battery, 2 x SD card, Toolbox, tools.
Jul 09 07:00:58 * aloril is curious to heard were order numbers are now
Jul 09 07:01:17 <roh> >250 <300 tickets.
Jul 09 07:01:36 <hads> That was quick :)
Jul 09 07:01:37 <aloril> woah, they are indeed going quite fast
Jul 09 07:01:57 <aloril> 1000 could be gone today
Jul 09 07:01:58 <mashi99> the production version will be 400MHz ?
Jul 09 07:02:08 <roh> could
Jul 09 07:02:13 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone_%28GTA01%29]] [[P1_Owners]] [[IPhone]] [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Jul 09 07:02:20 <xkr47> does the openmoko team want bug reports for web page bugs ?
Jul 09 07:02:22 <roh> mashi99 gta02 will
Jul 09 07:02:37 <roh> xkr47 we do :)
Jul 09 07:02:40 <xkr47> the developers kit Hardware section says "as a bonus, we ship _a_ 512 MB card" but while it clearly contains 2
Jul 09 07:03:00 <xkr47> I guess it shows the same hardware page for both kits
Jul 09 07:03:05 <mashi99> roh : I think GTA02 is 266 ?
Jul 09 07:03:20 <xkr47> roh, so there's my report :)
Jul 09 07:03:32 <aloril> mashi99: no, thats 400Mhz
Jul 09 07:03:35 <buz> GTA02 is 400mhz at least
Jul 09 07:03:37 <mashi99> oh.. sorry.. that's GTA01
Jul 09 07:03:54 <buz> woah they could really buy a ssl cert for that site ;)
Jul 09 07:04:11 <hads> CACert would be fine.
Jul 09 07:04:24 <hads> It goes with the open theme :)
Jul 09 07:04:27 <buz> does the site calculate shipping costs somehow
Jul 09 07:04:37 <mashi99> sigh... if I get GTA01 and production version come out.. i wonder if i want to get production version :(
Jul 09 07:04:47 <xkr47> roh, if you can be bothered, I heard you may have the possibility to verify the orders.. my mail server has greylist filtering and it seems the confirmation mail got lost..
Jul 09 07:05:05 <mashi99> any word how big microsd it will support ?
Jul 09 07:05:18 <gamin> I just get a blank page in step two
Jul 09 07:05:18 <xkr47> mashi99, 2MB confirmed for GTA01, 8MB unconfirmed for GTA02
Jul 09 07:05:24 <mashi99> ok
Jul 09 07:05:26 <mashi99> thanks
Jul 09 07:05:30 <hads> s/MB/GB/
Jul 09 07:05:32 <buz> xkr47: GB
Jul 09 07:05:37 <xkr47> lol :DD
Jul 09 07:05:41 <xkr47> thx hads & buz
Jul 09 07:05:46 <buz> we assume 4GB and 8GB will work
Jul 09 07:05:57 <buz> but we dont know for sure yet
Jul 09 07:06:00 <aloril> mashi99: unknown whether 4GB and bigger work on GTA01B_04
Jul 09 07:06:00 <xkr47> gamin, 09:06 < daMaestro> returning blank pages if you don't use two capital letters for a state
Jul 09 07:06:12 <mashi99> i have few 2G
Jul 09 07:06:30 <aloril> nobody with Neo1973 has managed to get hold of 4GB microSD
Jul 09 07:06:41 <mashi99> damn.. i want neo1973. but i want GTA02
Jul 09 07:06:43 <buz> 8G doesnt currently ship
Jul 09 07:06:47 <xkr47> aloril, well news will get out in a week or so I suppose :)
Jul 09 07:06:53 <buz> but if 4G works, so should 8-32G
Jul 09 07:07:17 <mashi99> i wonder if they will give discount to developer when GTA02 release
Jul 09 07:07:28 <xkr47> gamin, saw my comment there ?
Jul 09 07:07:39 <buz> mashi99: not announced so far
Jul 09 07:07:46 <drkludge> mashi99, the discount is now with the gta01
Jul 09 07:07:50 <sannes> mashi99: they already gave a discount on gta01 so ..
Jul 09 07:07:52 <buz> but if you publish something good, chances are you could get a free one ;)
Jul 09 07:07:57 <sannes> mashi99: probably not
Jul 09 07:08:00 <mashi99> sannes : I know
Jul 09 07:08:09 <xkr47> I just hope openmoko can manage financially
Jul 09 07:08:19 <buz> i would expect them to hand out a few more free units to select  people
Jul 09 07:08:24 <mashi99> hmm.. any of you guys used iphone ?
Jul 09 07:08:24 <buz> so get busy developping ;)
Jul 09 07:08:42 <xkr47> I hope they don't sell GTA01 cheaper than they cost to manufacture
Jul 09 07:08:57 <gamin> thanks xkr47
Jul 09 07:08:57 <buz> if that costs 300$ to make something's very wrong
Jul 09 07:09:04 <xkr47> gamin, did it help?
Jul 09 07:09:10 <gamin> yes
Jul 09 07:09:18 <buz> then again, with bad yield it might cost that much
Jul 09 07:09:31 <xkr47> there should be someone updating the sale page to add that note about the states then
Jul 09 07:09:34 <mashi99> in some way. iphone is really nice. anyone could use it.. but i played with my friend's moto's linux base phone.. it sucks.. i think it is the gui
Jul 09 07:09:39 <gamin> what is the difference between the first three shipping options? they are all more or less the same
Jul 09 07:09:43 <xkr47> it's nuts if many people just get a blank pag
Jul 09 07:09:45 <xkr47> e
Jul 09 07:09:50 * mil__ wounders where to find svn link, wiki down
Jul 09 07:09:52 <CM> THat's a serious bug
Jul 09 07:09:54 <buz> mashi99: it's moto, they cant do phone gui for their lifes
Jul 09 07:09:55 <xkr47> gamin, delivery speed
Jul 09 07:10:03 <CM> xkr47: The capital letter I mean
Jul 09 07:10:04 <mashi99> buz : i know.. 
Jul 09 07:10:10 <xkr47> CM, exactly
Jul 09 07:10:21 <mashi99> buz : they already improved a lot.. lol
Jul 09 07:10:29 * xkr47 checks that the mailing list mentions the workaround
Jul 09 07:10:38 <xkr47> oh, it is
Jul 09 07:10:41 <buz> NFW i would voluntarily use a moto phone
Jul 09 07:10:59 <buz> as for mass market phones, s60 is about the only bearable platform
Jul 09 07:11:06 * mil__ nevermind.. got a 200 finally
Jul 09 07:11:16 <mashi99> buz: S60 sucks
Jul 09 07:11:17 <daMaestro> xkr47, or just fix the bug ;-)
Jul 09 07:11:24 <aloril> mashi99: GTA01B_v04 price already includes $50 discount
Jul 09 07:11:26 <xkr47> I don't have access :)
Jul 09 07:11:34 <xkr47> it's not a wiki :)
Jul 09 07:11:39 <buz> some people i know have nokia e series phones
Jul 09 07:11:46 <buz> easily the best thing thats widely available imho
Jul 09 07:11:50 <xkr47> (inaw)
Jul 09 07:12:01 <mashi99> buz : I play with E61i today
Jul 09 07:13:00 <buz> realistically, there are 3 smart phone platforms around these days: s60, winmobile and uiq
Jul 09 07:13:08 <buz> uiq3 crashes even more than winmobile
Jul 09 07:13:11 <buz> leaves slow s60
Jul 09 07:13:26 <jeddy3> and both uiq and s60 build on symbian right?
Jul 09 07:13:29 <mashi99> buz : N95 is fast
Jul 09 07:13:40 <mashi99> it is depend on the phone's cpu
Jul 09 07:14:09 <buz> well the n95 costs more than many a  laptop
Jul 09 07:14:30 <mashi99> jeddy : Symbian S60. UIQ is like subset of symbian
Jul 09 07:14:37 <mashi99> buz : yeah.. and it sucks
Jul 09 07:14:46 <jeddy3> mashi99, right
Jul 09 07:14:55 <buz> symbian is the os, uiq the gui
Jul 09 07:15:00 <mashi99> buz : i used N95 for 1 day. the GPS is slow
Jul 09 07:15:01 <buz> think off it like linux and gnome/kde
Jul 09 07:15:15 <aloril> buz: well, motorola uses Linux, actually I recall seeing that Linux has bigger % on smartphones than winme (but I might rememeber wrong though)
Jul 09 07:15:41 <buz> aloril: i dont consider closed moto crap as smartphones, that category by definition must run native apps
Jul 09 07:15:55 <buz> and j2me!=native
Jul 09 07:15:56 <mashi99> aloril : winmobile is better than those moto linux phone right now
Jul 09 07:15:56 <aloril> buz: OK ;-)
Jul 09 07:16:18 <buz> winmobile has very sweet hardware
Jul 09 07:16:38 <buz> htc makes some damn nice gear
Jul 09 07:16:43 <mashi99> i have palm, winmobile and iphone now. i just stay away with moto linux and symbian
Jul 09 07:16:54 <mashi99> but neo1973 is difference story
Jul 09 07:17:01 <buz> palm is ridiculous, that os can't even do tcp/ip right
Jul 09 07:17:26 <buz> (they main reason that treo dont have wifi, besides telcos, is that palm os simply cant handle more than one upstream)
Jul 09 07:17:31 <mashi99> since moto linux is just the base. nothing really can related to linux
Jul 09 07:17:44 <mashi99> buz: right.. palmos sucks
Jul 09 07:17:53 <jeddy3> anyway, i have a e61...and it's a quite impressive display on how crippled you could make a toy with so much hardware possibilities
Jul 09 07:18:21 <buz> jeddy3: well its supposed to compete with blackberries
Jul 09 07:18:24 <mashi99> jeddy : I just don't like symbian. after I use SE P910(UIQ)
Jul 09 07:18:29 <buz> and as far as that goes, i like it much more than crackberry
Jul 09 07:18:55 <mashi99> buz : I like my blackberry :P good email machine
Jul 09 07:19:09 <mashi99> all i can say. email. that's it
Jul 09 07:19:09 <buz> too big, useless as phone
Jul 09 07:19:27 <mashi99> buz : I am using pearl
Jul 09 07:19:41 <buz> is that keyboard usable?
Jul 09 07:19:44 <jeddy3> buz, yeah, and i have never owned a blackerry...but still...
Jul 09 07:19:54 <mashi99> buz : it's ok.. can't compare with full keyboard
Jul 09 07:20:59 <jeddy3> quite big awesome screen, full qwerty keyboard, wifi, etc....nah!, well just make a halfassed port from some of our other phones os
Jul 09 07:21:05 <buz> i would get a htc device over a blackberry anytime
Jul 09 07:21:20 <mashi99> buz : I think why neo1973 can't play video now.. coz cpu and GPU have no acceleration
Jul 09 07:21:35 <buz> you might be able to play 320x240 video
Jul 09 07:21:45 <buz> i hear different stories about that
Jul 09 07:21:56 <mjr> yeah, there was some encouraging stuff on the wiki about video
Jul 09 07:21:58 <mashi99> buz : well.. for battery life. blackberry is way better than htc
Jul 09 07:22:13 <mjr> 'course, the mass market model should be much better
Jul 09 07:22:30 <buz> yeah but htc is half the size
Jul 09 07:22:48 <mashi99> buz : which one ?
Jul 09 07:22:53 <buz> s620
Jul 09 07:22:56 <buz> or if you really want small, samsung has some very tiny qwerty winmobile
Jul 09 07:23:12 <mashi99> i know.. 
Jul 09 07:23:31 <mashi99> treo750 battery life sucks
Jul 09 07:23:44 <buz> heck, if it would run linux, i'd get a ubiquio 501 any day
Jul 09 07:24:21 <mashi99> buz : lol
Jul 09 07:24:54 <sannes> Does the neo1973 have different speakers for ringtone and voice ?
Jul 09 07:24:55 <aloril> btw.. is that "need 2 letter uppercase" for USA order fixed yet?
Jul 09 07:25:22 <mashi99> this one have touch screen right ?
Jul 09 07:25:41 <buz> mashi99: nothing to be said against a qwerty phone with qvga touchscreen, wifi and 2mp cam for roughly 300EUR
Jul 09 07:26:07 <roh> uffff
Jul 09 07:26:12 <mashi99> but 200Mhz.. you will know how slow it is..
Jul 09 07:26:40 <mashi99> buz : 200MHz winmobile phone.. slow
Jul 09 07:27:03 <aloril> sannes: its stereo (don't think there is anything special for voice)
Jul 09 07:28:06 <sannes> aloril: okay, so the volume levels are just different from when the phone is ringing and when making a call?
Jul 09 07:28:22 <aloril> sannes: that is all software issue I think
Jul 09 07:28:39 <roh> xkr47 youve asked something earlier.. sorry.. i was busy kicking apache to spin faster
Jul 09 07:28:41 <aloril> heard that its quite loud though if you want it to be ;-)
Jul 09 07:29:07 <sannes> hehe, goodie :)
Jul 09 07:29:21 <mashi99> how much is the shipping to US ?
Jul 09 07:29:24 <buz> so neos come from the us???
Jul 09 07:30:01 <aloril> mashi99: less than $20 I think, but you can check it yourself: just to step 1/3 of order ;-)
Jul 09 07:30:30 <mashi99> buz : do you have nick like buggz before ?
Jul 09 07:30:30 <aloril> buz: seems they are all shipped in bundle to US and then shipped from FIC USA elsewhere
Jul 09 07:30:35 <xkr47> roh, I asked if you could be bothered to check my order.. my mailserver has greylist filtering and it seems the confirmation mail got lost due to that.. no resend attempts in 7 hours
Jul 09 07:30:36 <drkludge> mashi99, +$26 for two day air
Jul 09 07:30:43 <mashi99> drk : ok
Jul 09 07:31:09 <sadiq> Just a quick question... has anyone experimented with the tickless patch for the OpenMoko kernel?
Jul 09 07:31:09 <aloril> sadiq: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 07:31:10 <xkr47> roh (someone rumoured that you were able to check such a thing)
Jul 09 07:31:14 <roh> xkr47 whats your email?
Jul 09 07:31:21 <xkr47> roh, xkr47@outerspace.dyndns.org
Jul 09 07:31:48 <buz> no i never had nick like buggz
Jul 09 07:31:52 <sadiq> (as I notice we're using 2.6.20, when tickless only got merged in to the mainline in 2.6.21)
Jul 09 07:31:57 <mashi99> i wish openmoko work with OSX. that's make my life easier :P
Jul 09 07:32:23 <xkr47> roh, thanks :)
Jul 09 07:32:25 <buz> sadiq: afaik, arm has been tickless for a while
Jul 09 07:32:28 <mashi99> buz : ok.. coz I used to hangout in #linux channel. someone from .ch have name like that.
Jul 09 07:32:48 <aloril> sadiq: 2007-07-01 13:58:05 <CIA-17>    openmoko: laforge * r2355 /trunk/oe/ (3 files in 3 dirs): update kernel to 2.6.21.5
Jul 09 07:33:22 <mashi99> how easy to kill uboot ?
Jul 09 07:33:54 <sadiq> buz: oh. Didn't realise that. Seems I was only following the x86 work. :-S
Jul 09 07:33:55 <aloril> mashi99: I think shipping phone has some checks against flashing wrong version of u-boot
Jul 09 07:34:02 <sadiq> aloril: nice.
Jul 09 07:34:07 <mashi99> ok
Jul 09 07:34:12 <roh> xkr47 hm. i see your mail, but not the order.. is that the mail Âyou used in the orderform?
Jul 09 07:34:21 <aloril> mashi99: however, if you flash wrong u-boot -> brick
Jul 09 07:34:36 <xkr47> yes.. what mail do you see ?
Jul 09 07:34:37 <mashi99> aloril : need jtag :P
Jul 09 07:34:41 <xkr47> (roh)
Jul 09 07:34:52 <xkr47> roh, (yes, that's the mail)
Jul 09 07:35:08 <xkr47> "Jonas Berlin" is the name
Jul 09 07:36:21 <mashi99> i read something about neo1973 few months ago. it said it is triband not quad before
Jul 09 07:36:35 <xkr47> roh, I still have the browser open if you want some more info from the forms I filled.
Jul 09 07:36:43 * aloril recalls it being quad band from start
Jul 09 07:36:47 <mjr> mashi99, mmh, article must've gotten it wrong
Jul 09 07:36:49 <mjr> aloril, yeah
Jul 09 07:37:03 <mashi99> mjr : I read it in phonescoop
Jul 09 07:38:54 <mashi99> for the advance. it got jtag cable or special board ?
Jul 09 07:40:09 <buz> special board
Jul 09 07:40:18 <mashi99> buz : no wonder $150 more
Jul 09 07:40:19 * aloril wonders what is factor of actual number of phones ordered and number of orders (ie how many phones/order on average)
Jul 09 07:40:52 * CM guesses 1.1 phones/order ;)
Jul 09 07:41:28 <xkr47> 1.185 if you trust the P1_Owners page :)
Jul 09 07:41:36 <CM> xkr47: HEhe
Jul 09 07:41:41 <clarity> is the phone fast enough to play videos?
Jul 09 07:41:42 <aloril> clarity: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 07:42:02 <CM> clarity: Not really, in this Phase 1 version
Jul 09 07:42:16 <ScaredyCat> not really, well not this version.. October should do better
Jul 09 07:42:24 <aloril> mjr: you said "the Neo should really have an all-LCD cover so you could skin it in software" remember talks from back about that? ;-)
Jul 09 07:43:16 <aloril> clarity: maybe if you encode them suitably and use 320x240 reslution
Jul 09 07:43:17 <mashi99> CM : what the status of neo1973 now ? can make/receive call ?
Jul 09 07:44:15 <CM> mashi99: It can, supposedly. I know people have called on it, but I don't think it's usable for daily use as a phone yet
Jul 09 07:44:48 <mashi99> CM : ok.. coz i can just pop a prepaid and test it.
Jul 09 07:45:09 <CM> That's what I'm planning to do
Jul 09 07:45:48 <mashi99> CM : actually i have spare line also.. but if it screwed up keep the GPRS on.. i will be in big trouble
Jul 09 07:46:19 <clarity> have you guys had a rush of people since the slashdot post?
Jul 09 07:46:24 <roh> xkr47 nope.. i cannot find your order 
Jul 09 07:46:56 <mashi99> clarity : well.. at least who read /. is not those morons :)
Jul 09 07:47:28 <mashi99> well.. maybe i should dual boot my thinkpad
Jul 09 07:47:40 <xkr47> roh, doh!! what should I do ?
Jul 09 07:47:43 <ScaredyCat> naaa  - just get rid of windows
Jul 09 07:47:45 <Morglet> No morons on Slashdot?  You haven't been on there in recent years then ... :-)
Jul 09 07:47:53 <mashi99> i haven't use it for long time.. i am using osx for few months
Jul 09 07:47:58 <CM> xkr47: Try to order 3 phones again?
Jul 09 07:48:14 <xkr47> roh, what mail did you say you saw?
Jul 09 07:48:17 <mashi99> scaredy : some stuff i use must use windows
Jul 09 07:48:29 <mashi99> scaredy : that's why I have parallels on my mac
Jul 09 07:48:41 <xkr47> CM, I don't want 6 of them by accident :/
Jul 09 07:48:48 <clarity> woa, it has a usb host in it?
Jul 09 07:48:50 <CM> xkr47: Of course not. 
Jul 09 07:48:55 <clarity> so i can use it to charge my ipod in theory?
Jul 09 07:48:55 <roh> xkr47 the one where you ask the same as you ask me atm
Jul 09 07:48:57 <clarity> lol :-)
Jul 09 07:48:58 <CM> clarity: Yes, but you need a powered hub
Jul 09 07:49:02 <ScaredyCat> xkr47: yes, you do, you just don;t want to *pay* for 6
Jul 09 07:49:22 <xkr47> lol
Jul 09 07:49:26 <CM> clarity: Its a host, but unpowered because of battery constraints
Jul 09 07:49:27 <mashi99> lol
Jul 09 07:49:32 <clarity> hrm, so is it mostly just for like removable drives?
Jul 09 07:49:36 <clarity> like usb thumbs?
Jul 09 07:49:43 <ScaredyCat> or dongles...
Jul 09 07:49:47 <mashi99> xkr47 : that's ok.. if you don't want 6. send those you don't want to me
Jul 09 07:49:49 <roh> xkr47 order again and add that you only want one and the color into the comment field
Jul 09 07:50:01 <xkr47> I ordered three, so..
Jul 09 07:50:15 <clarity> xkr47: rock on
Jul 09 07:50:18 * ScaredyCat wonders about wifi,wireless kb
Jul 09 07:50:26 <clarity> props on the 640x480 resolution
Jul 09 07:50:27 <clarity> :-)
Jul 09 07:50:28 <roh> xkr47 then write three... as long as there is no ticket noone will send you stuff or bill it ;)
Jul 09 07:50:30 <CM> roh: What if you didn't request any special color?
Jul 09 07:50:38 <ScaredyCat> although... I've not seen a battery powered hub yet
Jul 09 07:50:46 <xkr47> roh, wonder if other orders got lost as well if mine did too
Jul 09 07:50:48 <mashi99> 640x480 is what i want to see
Jul 09 07:51:06 <roh> CM were still discussing that. but if you want to play shure just reply to the ticket you got with the color your want
Jul 09 07:51:26 <CM> roh: Ok. I'm fine with anything, it's a dev toy anyway. ;)
Jul 09 07:51:27 <ScaredyCat> that's what I did :)
Jul 09 07:51:30 <clarity> isn't the screen pretty small compared to the iphone?
Jul 09 07:51:42 <roh> xkr47 i can only imagine your mail is gone lost or the http ate it while beeing restarted due to load-fixes
Jul 09 07:51:45 <ScaredyCat> dpi
Jul 09 07:51:46 <mashi99> clarity : iphone scren is huge
Jul 09 07:51:48 <jeddy3> shrug...first comment on engadget: iPhone rippof! :P
Jul 09 07:51:59 <ScaredyCat> muppets
Jul 09 07:52:07 <mashi99> since neo1973 got 640x480 and dpi is higher also
Jul 09 07:52:13 <clarity> hmm... i read about this phone about a year or more ago
Jul 09 07:52:18 <clarity> the devel phone was too much for me though
Jul 09 07:52:19 <jeddy3> ripoff even*
Jul 09 07:52:31 <clarity> so the iphone is a neo ripoff :-)
Jul 09 07:52:39 <mashi99> jeddy : i have one :P it's ok. 
Jul 09 07:52:46 <jeddy3> doesn't really matter to those fanboys
Jul 09 07:53:10 <clarity> i'll probably wait until the oct version
Jul 09 07:53:17 <clarity> how are you guys doing about developers?
Jul 09 07:53:21 <clarity> do you have enough help?
Jul 09 07:54:01 <xkr47> roh, well I got the page 3 with "Your Order request has been processed." when I did it..
Jul 09 07:54:06 <mashi99> my another thought is. using neo1973 as GSM monitor
Jul 09 07:54:14 <xkr47> hope others orders have gone through 100% :)
Jul 09 07:54:32 <mashi99> like engining mode on some phone
Jul 09 07:54:50 <mashi99> engineer
Jul 09 07:55:07 <Morglet> To compete against the iPhone, it needs to run OpenHype, not OpenMoko :-)
Jul 09 07:55:46 <roh> xkr47 i just walked through the process and it works fine. email is there in seconds
Jul 09 07:55:47 <clarity> i think the open source philosophy is what matters
Jul 09 07:55:52 <mashi99> morglet : lol.. well.. a lot of people don't understand about iphone
Jul 09 07:55:57 <clarity> even if it's not 100% better right now
Jul 09 07:56:03 <darwin81> How long until Doom is ported to OpenMoko?
Jul 09 07:56:12 <clarity> how are you guys doing about developers?
Jul 09 07:56:19 <xkr47> roh, used a different email now
Jul 09 07:56:34 <mashi99> Morglet : the main selling point of iphone is easy to use. ipod feature..
Jul 09 07:57:00 <mashi99> morglet : you can't classified iphone as pda phone really
Jul 09 07:57:15 <xkr47> roh, is the order cancelled if the mail cannot be delivered?
Jul 09 07:57:29 <xkr47> anyway, got a ticket now, #2176 :P
Jul 09 07:57:40 <ScaredyCat> who got ticket 1973?
Jul 09 07:57:44 <ScaredyCat> :)
Jul 09 07:57:51 <roh> xkr47 i know about your issue, so if you get a second confirmation later just tell me an i'll fix it
Jul 09 07:58:11 <xkr47> roh, thank you very much!
Jul 09 07:58:30 <Morglet> mashi99:  two of my friends have iPhones, I've played with it, and it's extremely well presented.  But it's closed, so it's not what I want.  However, in Neo's mass-market phase on GTA-02, it *HAS* to compete with iPhone.  If it doesn't, it won't sell.
Jul 09 07:58:33 <clarity> i'm def waiting until oct for it i think :-)
Jul 09 07:58:57 <clarity> gta-02 ?
Jul 09 07:59:07 <CM> ScaredyCat: I wonder about that too :D
Jul 09 07:59:10 <mashi99> morglet : yeah. i have iphone also.. iphone is eye candy 
Jul 09 07:59:21 <Morglet> clarity: Next gen Neo
Jul 09 08:00:05 <CM> mashi99: Good to have to compare gui's and functionality :)
Jul 09 08:00:10 <mashi99> morglet : a lot of review saying iphone this and that. but they don't understand. apple just rush the product out. 
Jul 09 08:00:17 <Morglet> mashi99: which means, we can't ignore the iPhone, if FIC intends to sell to mass market.
Jul 09 08:00:32 <aloril> so 356 orders now in
Jul 09 08:00:46 <aloril> (with unknown amount of units)
Jul 09 08:01:40 <CM> aloril: They're selling at quite a good rate :)
Jul 09 08:01:48 <mashi99> morglet : my gf's mom play with my iphone.. she can handle it well also.. apple know how to make thing easy for people
Jul 09 08:01:48 <clarity> i think a lot of people have been waiting for an open source phone right now :-)
Jul 09 08:01:58 <clarity> i hope you guys are making a lot of money off of this
Jul 09 08:01:59 <clarity> :-)
Jul 09 08:01:59 <Morglet> mashi99: yeah
Jul 09 08:02:01 <aloril> if [[P1_Owners]] page ratio holds, then > 400 units sold
Jul 09 08:02:13 <clarity> i think the iphone probably helped you guys out a bit
Jul 09 08:02:27 <clarity> looking at iphones price tag and the neo...
Jul 09 08:02:31 <clarity> neo looks cheap :-)
Jul 09 08:02:56 <mjr> aloril, 2176 order number gotten on the other channel, so several hundred orders at least
Jul 09 08:03:20 <mashi99> morglet : a lot of review just care about the function and complain. they only think of experienced user
Jul 09 08:03:30 <aloril> mjr: saw that same number in this channel too ;-)
Jul 09 08:03:42 <mjr> so it seems
Jul 09 08:03:56 <daxxar> Meh. :-(
Jul 09 08:04:09 <daxxar> My server greylisted the openmoko.com confirmation 10 hours ago.
Jul 09 08:04:13 <daxxar> Not been resent yet. :-(
Jul 09 08:04:16 <aloril> 356 * (5+27)/27 is about 420
Jul 09 08:04:23 <aloril> 421
Jul 09 08:04:24 <mjr> Owners page is corrupted in that homyx bought "3x" and his group order buddies listed themselves separately as "1x" :]
Jul 09 08:04:40 <aloril> ah
Jul 09 08:05:08 <CM> Well, they have listed the same order number :)
Jul 09 08:05:09 <Morglet> clarity: well in theory FIC has a larger profit margin on Neo/OM than other manufacturers, because they don't have huge software development costs to amortize.  However, their h/w costs are quite a bit higher, since they're not manufacturing in half-million batches.
Jul 09 08:05:09 <aloril> at most 11 orders / ticket, so less than 3916 ;-)
Jul 09 08:05:09 <xkr47> daxxar, maybe ask roh about your order then, he can check it (maybe)
Jul 09 08:05:29 <xkr47> daxxar, my order got lost, I had to place a new one
Jul 09 08:05:42 <mashi99> morglet : some people claim iphone only cost $220 ;0
Jul 09 08:05:42 <xkr47> daxxar, I used a non-greylisted address the second time, it worked :P
Jul 09 08:06:01 <clarity> so this isn't usable as a regular phone yet?
Jul 09 08:06:14 <daxxar> I think the order is OK, because the mail.info-log lists it as tried delivered.
Jul 09 08:06:15 <Morglet> mashi99: yeah, I saw that.  I wonder if Sean would confirm that that is possible, at high-volume.
Jul 09 08:06:33 <mashi99> Morglet : well.. those people never think of R&D cost
Jul 09 08:06:34 <ScaredyCat> clarity: this is a developer release...
Jul 09 08:06:48 <clarity> ah okay
Jul 09 08:06:56 <mashi99> Morglet : just like how much money you can build a car
Jul 09 08:07:00 <Morglet> mashi99: the $220 was Bill of Materials cost, exclusive of dev cost.
Jul 09 08:07:12 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jul 09 08:07:27 <mashi99> Morglet : R&D is where money goes
Jul 09 08:08:45 <mashi99> Morglet : ok.. this is what I can say.. iphone = easy to use. palm = stable. winmobile = more toys
Jul 09 08:09:38 <clarity> Remember, "If you can't open it, you don't own it". We're giving you a Torx T6 screwdriver and a guitar pick to bust open your Neo and get at the PCB. Call us crazy, but openess for us goes far deeper than software. <-- i love you guys
Jul 09 08:09:52 <Morglet> mashi99: yep.  But in its mass-market phase, Neo still has to sell to those other people, who want ease of use and eye candy.  It can't be ignored, just because techies don't care for it.
Jul 09 08:09:54 <mashi99> if i have neo1973. i would use it as a GSM monitor :P
Jul 09 08:10:21 <mashi99> morglet : right. i want phase 2 neo :)
Jul 09 08:10:22 <aloril> clarity: calling/receiving call should work
Jul 09 08:11:12 <mil__> aloril: sms?
Jul 09 08:11:36 <aloril> mil__: don't think current hardware has support for that, but I suspect it will appear soon once phones are in wild
Jul 09 08:11:46 <aloril> s/hardware/firmware/
Jul 09 08:11:47 <apt> aloril meant: mil__: don't think current firmware has support for that, but I suspect it will appear soon once phones are in wild
Jul 09 08:11:58 <clarity> hmm, i think what i'll do is think about it for a week and perhaps buy it if I can figure out how to put aside enough money :-)
Jul 09 08:12:07 <clarity> i wanna help you ugys out even if i'm just a patch monkey
Jul 09 08:12:08 <clarity> :-)
Jul 09 08:12:15 <__brandon__> can i order through openmoko.com yet?  i'm getting a blank page on the order.cgi
Jul 09 08:12:30 <mashi99> lol.. i still remember when I am running linux in 1990/91. i call asus or some motherboard manufacture support about CPU and such. they said they don't support hobbies OS
Jul 09 08:12:34 <aloril> __brandon__: upper case 2 letter code if you order from USA
Jul 09 08:13:37 <__brandon__> was using lowercase, didn't know it was that sensentive
Jul 09 08:13:47 <__brandon__> ty
Jul 09 08:14:18 <hads> Yeah the error checking isn't particually fancy at present.
Jul 09 08:14:23 <mashi99> anyway.. nice to talk to you guys.. i will make up my mind tomorrow if i want to get neo1973. it is 4:14am here.. take care everyone
Jul 09 08:14:38 <darwin81> What's a good way to get rid of those Windows OEM stickers that come on the side of cases?
Jul 09 08:14:42 <aloril> roh: I guess you know about above bug? (needing uppercase 2 letter code for USA orders) (just verifying)
Jul 09 08:14:49 <clarity> mashi: i feel the same :-)
Jul 09 08:14:55 <clarity> good night mashi
Jul 09 08:15:03 <Morglet> darwin81: napalm
Jul 09 08:15:07 <aloril> __brandon__: got order trough now?
Jul 09 08:15:14 <mashi99> if it is GTA02. i will buy it right the way :P
Jul 09 08:15:16 <kristian-m> got #2179
Jul 09 08:15:27 <__brandon__> placing order now.  trying to decide how much i want to spend on shipping :)
Jul 09 08:15:28 <roh> aloril could be. but the perl script handling that is highly fragile and i do not want to touch it atm
Jul 09 08:15:33 <mashi99> for hardware wise.. GTA02 is good
Jul 09 08:15:39 <Psi_> __brandon__, you mean you have a choice?
Jul 09 08:15:54 <__brandon__> 7 choices
Jul 09 08:16:10 <cybaea> __brandon__: Wow.  We only get 3 in Europe
Jul 09 08:16:11 <aloril> roh: maybe add mention to web page that it needs to be uppercase 2 letter code for USA orders?
Jul 09 08:16:13 <aloril> (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: Congratulation OpenMoko.com http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/congratulation-openmokocom.html
Jul 09 08:16:15 <kristian-m> how many can be delivered?
Jul 09 08:16:21 <cybaea> (And they all cost pretty much the same :-D )
Jul 09 08:16:23 <Psi_> count yourself lucky, quite alot of use only get 1-3 and they are all the same $50-$100 US :(
Jul 09 08:16:37 <Psi_> some more than $100US
Jul 09 08:16:49 <__brandon__> if they leave this on my doorstep while i'm at work i'm going to be pissed
Jul 09 08:17:08 <aloril> kristian-m: so 359 order is latest count now (* average number of orders)
Jul 09 08:17:12 <clarity> i think i need to get back to homework
Jul 09 08:17:23 <clarity> good luck with everything guys :-)
Jul 09 08:17:30 * sannes paid $127.12 for shipping :P
Jul 09 08:17:43 * Psi_ paid $85
Jul 09 08:17:46 <cybaea> sannes: Ouch!
Jul 09 08:17:49 <aloril> __brandon__: it won't ship today
Jul 09 08:17:51 <kristian-m> aloril so ids != order count?
Jul 09 08:17:51 <xkr47> roh, the moko online store link in the mail I got after the order points to direct.openmoko.org but it should be .com
Jul 09 08:17:52 <aloril> counter
Jul 09 08:17:52 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, 3 days 03:42:03 (10.154±3.0 days) (1722;246)
Jul 09 08:17:54 <clarity> where do you guys live?
Jul 09 08:18:05 <__brandon__> i'm going for the 2ND_DAY_AIR mail for 26.67
Jul 09 08:18:09 <Psi_> sannes, that makes me feel a little better
Jul 09 08:18:11 <aloril> kristian-m: lowest reported order id is #1821
Jul 09 08:18:20 * CM had 81.04 USD for shipping to Sweden
Jul 09 08:18:31 <Morglet> $127 shipping????  OMG
Jul 09 08:18:37 <clarity> hrm... anyone shipping to cali?
Jul 09 08:18:38 <Psi_> yeah, its insane :(
Jul 09 08:18:40 <CM> aloril: Still think it's weird if they started on that number :)
Jul 09 08:18:49 <cybaea> $77.46 shipping
Jul 09 08:18:50 <__brandon__> for $127 god himself bettter bless my phone and hand deliver it :)
Jul 09 08:18:56 <Psi_> they should have started at 1973
Jul 09 08:19:02 <cybaea> (to the UK)
Jul 09 08:19:02 <kristian-m> __brandon__ why don't you order to the office?
Jul 09 08:19:07 <sannes> __brandon__: that is what I'm expecting aswell :P
Jul 09 08:19:18 <CM> Psi_: Well, someone did get a 1973 order now
Jul 09 08:19:20 <aloril> CM: I think its internal bug tracker number, yeah maybe -7 is earliest?
Jul 09 08:19:22 <__brandon__> kristian-m: that's a good idea :)
Jul 09 08:19:28 <Psi_> CM, hehe cool
Jul 09 08:19:30 <cybaea> (Running MokoMakeFile now....)
Jul 09 08:19:42 <jeddy3> CM, do you expect to pay tax on that?
Jul 09 08:20:29 <aloril> __brandon__: latest guess is that it clears customs at 2007-07-16
Jul 09 08:20:31 <CM> jeddy3: I don't know. Hope not.. I haven't had to before with stuff ordered from abroad
Jul 09 08:20:43 <Stephmw> hi guys
Jul 09 08:20:50 * CM tries to avoid taxes
Jul 09 08:20:57 * cybaea hates taxes
Jul 09 08:21:06 <jeddy3> CM, hopefully not
Jul 09 08:21:09 <__brandon__> they will be in fremont right?
Jul 09 08:21:28 <CM> cybaea: Well, I guess I live in the country with the highest taxes of all
Jul 09 08:21:31 <__brandon__> i'm going to be in california next week anyhow, could i go pick it up in person?
Jul 09 08:21:38 <clarity> fremont?
Jul 09 08:21:39 <cybaea> CM: Where?
Jul 09 08:21:46 <CM> Sweden
Jul 09 08:21:57 <clarity> whos going to be in fremont?
Jul 09 08:21:59 <__brandon__> i read somewhere that it was being delevered to fremont CA and would be shipped
Jul 09 08:22:01 <Morglet> WTF.  I just got my first spam fax on my ex-directory fax number.  I'm pissed off.
Jul 09 08:22:13 <cybaea> CM: I left Denmark because of the taxes.
Jul 09 08:22:18 <CM> We have 25% vad, and I pay between 33 and 56% of my wage in tax (Higher the higher your pay is)
Jul 09 08:22:20 <kristian-m> __brandon__ they don't ship from taiwan?
Jul 09 08:22:24 <cybaea> CM: Scandinavians of the World, Unite!
Jul 09 08:22:27 <CM> s/vad/VAT/
Jul 09 08:22:27 <apt> CM meant: We have 25% VAT, and I pay between 33 and 56% of my wage in tax (Higher the higher your pay is)
Jul 09 08:22:34 <CM> Hehe
Jul 09 08:22:38 <bedboi> ok, time has come.
Jul 09 08:22:46 <__brandon__> well they do, but i remember reading that a bunch were being delevered to fremont, i'll try & find where i read that
Jul 09 08:22:53 <bedboi> anyone knows the shipping time?
Jul 09 08:23:09 <bedboi> any FIC-guy here?
Jul 09 08:23:15 * CM bumps http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners again.
Jul 09 08:23:35 <__brandon__> from the newsletter
Jul 09 08:23:36 <__brandon__> Neos are waiting in customs just outside our factory in SuZhou. Early
Jul 09 08:23:36 <__brandon__> this week, they will start their journey to FIC America in Fremont,
Jul 09 08:23:36 <__brandon__> California.
Jul 09 08:24:10 <clarity> oh crap fremont is by me
Jul 09 08:24:20 <__brandon__> so, does anyone know where, or if I could just drop by while i'm there and pick one up?
Jul 09 08:24:20 <clarity> hmm... i think i can get there from the subway
Jul 09 08:24:30 <__brandon__> you mean bart ;)
Jul 09 08:24:33 <Morglet> I sure hope a European distribution point is set up soon.  Direct air freight from Taiwan is just lunacy.  Our money badly spent.
Jul 09 08:24:45 <Psi_> CM, is that for us to add too?
Jul 09 08:24:55 <clarity> __bradon__: yeah i wasn't sure if people would know what i'm talking about if i said bart :-)
Jul 09 08:25:26 <__brandon__> clarity: kinda figured as much.  but i had pressed enter
Jul 09 08:26:45 <__brandon__> so, anyone know where or if direct pickup is possible?
Jul 09 08:26:51 <__brandon__> i found 2 addresses via google
Jul 09 08:27:17 <aloril> Morglet: actually I suspect its from "FIC America" for Europe too ..
Jul 09 08:27:45 <aloril> Morglet: they are going directly from China to USA, not trough Taiwan (that is how I read above mail)
Jul 09 08:27:46 <bedboi> 75$ for shipping here in italy...
Jul 09 08:28:14 <bedboi> i will be in the US next month, so i'm thinking about getting it there.
Jul 09 08:28:15 <roh> xkr47 ive fixed the link in the mail i think
Jul 09 08:28:59 <Morglet> aloril: OK, US better than far east at least.  Although west-coast US is still almost the other side of the world.
Jul 09 08:29:42 * aloril suspects that China -> Taiwan -> shipping worldwide was harder thing to do than China -> USA -> shipping worldwide
Jul 09 08:30:13 <Morglet> Aye, since China doesn't want Taiwan to exist :-)
Jul 09 08:30:24 <aloril> though it would have been nice to have "China -> USA and EU" -> etc..
Jul 09 08:30:57 <aloril> but.. having limited numbers and .. no doubt shipping from EU will happen sooner or later
Jul 09 08:31:04 <roh> Morglet distributing will be much improved before we sell gta02
Jul 09 08:31:30 <cybaea> Does anybody know the weight of the Neo 1973?
Jul 09 08:31:37 <bedboi> Btw, if i known that the shipping time is less than 3 weeks, i would buy one from here (italy)
Jul 09 08:31:47 <__brandon__> well knowing that the clearing of customs won't happen for another week, i'll try & get it while i'm in california.  thx the the info aloril
Jul 09 08:32:06 <cybaea> bedboi: I don't think there are _any_ official shipping estimates yet...
Jul 09 08:32:32 <ScaredyCat> shipping isn't supposed to start until at least the 16th afaik...
Jul 09 08:32:33 <bedboi> cybaea: ok, so I'll definitely place an order when in New Mexico
Jul 09 08:32:41 <bedboi> i'll be there for two months.
Jul 09 08:32:44 <aloril> mail about custrom clearance at 2007-07-16 or later: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006633.html
Jul 09 08:32:45 <ScaredyCat> from a messsage from mickey_away
Jul 09 08:32:47 <cybaea> Plus God only knows how long the customs take
Jul 09 08:32:55 <aloril> (this is repeat link for those who have not seen it yet)
Jul 09 08:33:49 <cybaea> I wonder what the tax is on importing mobile phones here.  Presumably "just" the VAT?
Jul 09 08:34:11 <Morglet> Noddy comparison against (sigh) the iPhone .... http://aptustech.com/?q=node/9
Jul 09 08:35:27 <cybaea> Morglet++
Jul 09 08:36:09 <cybaea> "geek port" !? :-D
Jul 09 08:38:15 <bedboi> FLASH: 4GB?
Jul 09 08:38:15 <__brandon__> ya, reading that,  didn't know that the neo had that much better rez than theh iphone, that's awesome
Jul 09 08:38:24 <bedboi> is it true?
Jul 09 08:38:25 <daMaestro> aloril, you should fix my oops
Jul 09 08:38:25 <cybaea> Is build/conf/local.conf documented anywhere?
Jul 09 08:38:30 <bedboi> or is it an hd?
Jul 09 08:38:34 <daMaestro> aloril, www.openmoko.com; sucks
Jul 09 08:38:37 * cybaea is building for the first time
Jul 09 08:38:43 <clarity> the screen looks pretty small though brandon
Jul 09 08:38:48 <Psi_> i thought the iphone had GPS, but look like it doesn't
Jul 09 08:38:50 <clarity> amazing res though
Jul 09 08:38:54 <__brandon__> 320x480   vs  640x480 ... no contest
Jul 09 08:38:59 <daMaestro> aloril, s/www.openmoko.com;/www.openmoko.com -/
Jul 09 08:39:21 <clarity> but with the slow processor and whatnot it's going to be hard to take advantage of that screen
Jul 09 08:39:25 <daMaestro> yessss...
Jul 09 08:39:34 <daMaestro> now i can open that link from xchat
Jul 09 08:40:00 <pa-ching> Oh well, video accelerators coming this Fall :)?
Jul 09 08:40:01 <aloril> bedboi: microSD 2GB has been tested, maybe 4GB works too
Jul 09 08:40:06 <daMaestro> an ... gah, it's 3am.. time for zZZZZ
Jul 09 08:40:12 * daMaestro &
Jul 09 08:40:13 <__brandon__> interesting point. but the 02 release should make that better
Jul 09 08:40:16 <bedboi> aloril: i'm talking about iPHone
Jul 09 08:40:27 <Morglet> The crucial difference will come later though:  Number of apps:  iPhone = 15,  Neo/OM = 5,000
Jul 09 08:40:41 <nohar> how does it stand wrt video playback ?
Jul 09 08:40:54 <bedboi> what about battery life comparison?
Jul 09 08:41:09 <cybaea> But people will say that the quality matters and Apple devotees will argue that there is not contest on that score ;-)
Jul 09 08:41:18 <bedboi> IMHO it's one of the most important features
Jul 09 08:41:27 <clarity> yeah it is
Jul 09 08:41:33 <aloril> bedboi: yeah or 8GB and that's it no cards
Jul 09 08:41:35 <clarity> well if you're blasting everything it's 4 hours
Jul 09 08:41:52 <clarity> but depends on how you use it
Jul 09 08:42:02 <aloril> Morglet: umm.. OM already has that many apps, just that they are not optimized for this screen size / touch screen input ;-)
Jul 09 08:42:28 <Morglet> Will kernel 2.6.22+ DynTicks allow the battery drain to be reduced even further?
Jul 09 08:42:34 <clarity> so that sounds like easy shit i can do :-)
Jul 09 08:42:45 <clarity> is it pretty easy to help develop on
Jul 09 08:42:46 <bedboi> aloril: in a cellular phone the application start-up time is very important
Jul 09 08:42:54 <clarity> i just want to do bug testing/patching
Jul 09 08:43:02 <aloril> bedboi: agree
Jul 09 08:43:06 * pa-ching wonders how he could kludge some neo controls for Nethack
Jul 09 08:43:24 <aloril> pa-ching: gestures?
Jul 09 08:43:25 <bedboi> aloril: i'm not that into openmoko internals (pity), but i guess that the most important applications are in memory
Jul 09 08:43:43 <pa-ching> aloril: Yeah, for movement I suppose :)
Jul 09 08:43:45 <cybaea> What is tthe deal on not being able to use the Neo when it is connected to the USB (because it draws more current than the 100 mA standard USB)?  Must trash the battery life.......
Jul 09 08:43:56 <cybaea> pa-ching++
Jul 09 08:43:59 <cybaea> nethack++
Jul 09 08:44:36 <pa-ching> (Don't hold your breath, I'll probably get the phone in the fall ;)
Jul 09 08:44:54 <jeddy3> Morglet, dyntick are highly archtecture-specific and IIRC build for x86 in latest kernel
Jul 09 08:44:55 <aloril> pa-ching: I mean different gesture for each different command
Jul 09 08:45:10 <pa-ching> aloril: Too many commands D:
Jul 09 08:45:12 <aloril> or just get bluetooth keyboard ;-)
Jul 09 08:45:19 <BlackFog> hi
Jul 09 08:45:24 <Morglet> The USB is unpowered, but what about in the other direction?  Can you charge it through the USB?
Jul 09 08:45:33 <Morglet> jeddy3: kk
Jul 09 08:45:40 <aloril> Morglet: that is basically only way to charge Neo1973
Jul 09 08:45:46 <cybaea> Morglet: I think you can _only_ charge it through the USB
Jul 09 08:45:56 <Morglet> Cool
Jul 09 08:46:16 <schurig> extract the battery and charge the battery directly with some Nokia charger
Jul 09 08:46:18 <aloril> other way is to take battery out and charge it in some no name charger that charges certain Nokia batteries
Jul 09 08:46:36 <bedboi> yep, good point
Jul 09 08:47:13 <jeddy3> Morglet, BUT Nokia has made some nice powersaving work with n800 (linux-based, arm) i think, maybe we could benefit from that
Jul 09 08:50:18 <clarity> man... i don't think i can afford it :-( I'll have to see if i can get some food stamps. I'm on a pretty tight budget right now
Jul 09 08:50:22 <clarity> <- college student
Jul 09 08:50:41 <ewanm89_laptop> clarity: I know how it feels.
Jul 09 08:51:24 * cybaea wonders how long the openmoko build takes.....
Jul 09 08:51:48 <ewanm89_laptop> cybaea: Leave it running a day or 2.
Jul 09 08:51:59 * cybaea :-O
Jul 09 08:53:37 <CM> Psi_: Sure, feel free to add yourself :)
Jul 09 08:54:25 <CM> cybaea: A complete build took about 7h on my amd64 3000+ with 1gb ram
Jul 09 08:54:33 <cybaea> Eeeeek
Jul 09 08:55:34 <cybaea> And it downloads a gazillion files....
Jul 09 08:55:44 * cybaea wishes he could get faster broadband
Jul 09 08:56:05 <Stephmw> cybaea: be sure to have ccache installed too :)
Jul 09 08:56:16 <cybaea> What is ccache?
Jul 09 08:56:20 <Stephmw> and if you can set up some machines with distcc, you'll be happier still
Jul 09 08:56:35 <CM> cybaea: Did you follow the wiki and add INHERIT += "rm_work" to the config file?
Jul 09 08:56:43 <cybaea> I am just following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile (sans the parallel instructions - missed those)
Jul 09 08:56:44 <ScaredyCat> I wondered avbout that Stephmw...
Jul 09 08:56:52 <CM> Otherwise it takes over 7gb disk to build
Jul 09 08:56:57 <clarity> cybaea: it's like a temp holding place for stuff
Jul 09 08:57:01 * CM built without ccache
Jul 09 08:57:13 <cybaea> Stephmw: not the INHERIT - I have 1 TB free disk 
Jul 09 08:57:24 <clarity> cybaea: your browser has web site cache so you don't have to download stuff as often
Jul 09 08:57:40 <clarity> holy shit...
Jul 09 08:57:42 <Stephmw> cybaea: http://ccache.samba.org/ - pre-processing cache, speeds up some compilation ops
Jul 09 08:57:51 <clarity> 7gb to build for a 64meg device?
Jul 09 08:58:02 <clarity> lool :-)
Jul 09 08:58:05 <clarity> lol*
Jul 09 08:58:07 <Stephmw> clarity: that's not so surprising
Jul 09 08:58:08 <cybaea> yeah, I have it
Jul 09 08:58:14 <cybaea> Was part of the yum install command
Jul 09 08:58:18 <clarity> really?
Jul 09 08:58:24 <Stephmw> clarity: at work I have about the same for a 16MB device :)
Jul 09 08:58:34 <clarity> where do you work?
Jul 09 08:58:36 <cybaea> Aborting build to do the parallel stuff
Jul 09 08:58:39 <CM> clarity: It keeps all temporary files and all sources unpacked and so on
Jul 09 08:58:45 <Stephmw> clarity: that would be telling :D
Jul 09 08:58:51 * Stephmw points to his NDA tatoo
Jul 09 08:59:03 <ewanm89_laptop> And I'm stuck with not being able to install monotone.
Jul 09 08:59:25 <daxxar> Anyone know the difference between WORLDWIDE_EXPEDITED and SAVER for shipping?
Jul 09 08:59:48 <clarity> has there been a huge surge since slashdot/
Jul 09 08:59:53 <clarity> in this chan?
Jul 09 09:00:27 <aloril> probably most nicks at this time of day
Jul 09 09:00:37 <ewanm89_laptop> clarity: Slight surge, usually we don't talk much, but today is a big day.
Jul 09 09:00:38 * cybaea re-started build with make update-makefile && make update setup openmoko-devel-image
Jul 09 09:00:56 <clarity> wanm89: are you a developer?
Jul 09 09:01:02 <clarity> ewanm89*
Jul 09 09:01:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Milo/en]] [[User:Milo]] [[SH1]] [[Main_Page/bg]] [[Main_Page]] [[P1_Owners]] [[FIC]] [[User:Amire80]] [[Neo1973_Battery]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Shipping_Notes]] [[FAQ]]
Jul 09 09:01:55 <ScaredyCat> cybaea: you now need to wait an ageand a half....
Jul 09 09:01:58 * daxxar re-orders and sighs
Jul 09 09:02:01 <ScaredyCat> approx 7 hours
Jul 09 09:02:24 <cybaea> yeah, I kind of figured that.  Presumably depends on your network speed as well....
Jul 09 09:02:34 <Stephmw> ScaredyCat: any idea how much of a speedup ccache/distcc would bring?
Jul 09 09:02:43 <Stephmw> (quantitatively)
Jul 09 09:03:06 <ScaredyCat> no idea.. but I would like to try at some point.... 
Jul 09 09:03:24 <ScaredyCat> just looking at ccache first
Jul 09 09:03:26 <cybaea> Do I need to do anything to use ccache?
Jul 09 09:03:33 <ScaredyCat> then will look at distcc...
Jul 09 09:03:46 <ScaredyCat> just dl it copmile and install..
Jul 09 09:03:53 <ewanm89_laptop> monotone ./configure: checking boost version 1.33.0 or newer... yes
Jul 09 09:03:53 <ewanm89_laptop> checking for the boost_filesystem library... no
Jul 09 09:04:03 <Psi_> is there a page that list exactly what software is/is not working on the neo at present?
Jul 09 09:04:06 <ScaredyCat> then you can use either symlinks or CC=ccache gcc
Jul 09 09:04:22 <Stephmw> ewanm89_laptop: boost is a beast, it may not have been compiled with everything you need on your distro
Jul 09 09:04:57 <ewanm89_laptop> Stephmw: I grabbed the tarball, and compiled it from there.
Jul 09 09:05:05 <cybaea> SHould I worry about messages like "NOTE: preferred version 2.4 of glibc not available" ?
Jul 09 09:05:16 <ewanm89_laptop> And I'm using 64bit gentoo.
Jul 09 09:06:10 <bedboi> is the weight of neo written somewhere?
Jul 09 09:06:21 * Stephmw comforts ewanm89_laptop 
Jul 09 09:06:30 <Stephmw> ewanm89_laptop: 64bit && gentoo?
Jul 09 09:06:38 <cybaea> I was wondering about the weight too.  Couldn't find it
Jul 09 09:06:44 <SpeedEvil> yes - [[Neo1973]] bedboi 
Jul 09 09:06:46 <Stephmw> ewanm89_laptop: I tried that, it felt too painful
Jul 09 09:06:49 <bedboi> ok
Jul 09 09:06:50 <bedboi> thanks
Jul 09 09:08:23 <SpeedEvil> Odd
Jul 09 09:08:25 <SpeedEvil> it's not there
Jul 09 09:08:32 <cybaea> No weight anywhere?
Jul 09 09:08:33 <SpeedEvil> 184g
Jul 09 09:09:19 <cybaea> Where did you find that?
Jul 09 09:09:29 <ewanm89_laptop> Stephmw: Any ideas on getting it to work without changing distro?
Jul 09 09:09:36 <bedboi> in the hardware stuff
Jul 09 09:09:57 <cybaea> I see it here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone
Jul 09 09:09:57 <SpeedEvil> Also FAQ
Jul 09 09:10:01 <SpeedEvil> 'how heavy is it'
Jul 09 09:10:35 <Stephmw> ewanm89_laptop: no idea tbh. I'd be tempted to set up a 32bit chroot (docs on gentoo wiki) and working from there
Jul 09 09:10:44 <CM> cybaea: I also get that glibc warning since I have a newer version, but it's not a problem. :)
Jul 09 09:10:56 <cybaea> Thanks, CM
Jul 09 09:11:01 <CM> ewanm89_laptop: I'm on 64 bit gentoo too
Jul 09 09:11:31 <CM> ewanm89_laptop: I had some trouble in the beginning to get it working under qemu. Had to install gcc-3
Jul 09 09:12:05 <ewanm89_laptop> CM: But I'm having problem with Boost and monotone.
Jul 09 09:12:26 <aloril> SpeedEvil: FIC/OpenMoko is much more behind Neo1973/OpenMoko than Sharp with Zaurus (at least it sounds that way)
Jul 09 09:13:28 <ScaredyCat> real    0m1.476s
Jul 09 09:13:29 <ScaredyCat> user    0m0.428s
Jul 09 09:13:29 <ScaredyCat> sys     0m0.084
Jul 09 09:13:42 <ScaredyCat> time for cccache gcc on cccache
Jul 09 09:13:56 <ScaredyCat> real    0m2.939s
Jul 09 09:13:57 <ScaredyCat> user    0m1.856s
Jul 09 09:13:57 <ScaredyCat> sys     0m0.136
Jul 09 09:14:08 <ScaredyCat> time for gcc of ccache
Jul 09 09:14:09 <CM> ewanm89_laptop: I'm on ~amd64. Have dev-embedded/bitbake-1.8.4 dev-libs/boost-1.34.0 dev-util/monotone-0.35 emerged
Jul 09 09:14:09 <hrw> hi
Jul 09 09:14:43 <hrw> CM: bitbake 1.8.6 suggested
Jul 09 09:14:44 <CM> ewanm89_laptop: After that, the makefile worked fine
Jul 09 09:14:50 <ewanm89_laptop> CM: the monotone ./configure is giving me an error about boost.
Jul 09 09:15:10 <CM> hrw: Ok, I'll see if I can update the ebuild or if there is one already
Jul 09 09:16:13 <aloril> 28 names on [[P1_Owners]], but at least 359 orders in
Jul 09 09:16:26 * aloril suspects ratio will just increase
Jul 09 09:17:04 <Psi_> heh Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
Jul 09 09:18:46 <cybaea> Which site?
Jul 09 09:18:56 <hrw> I wonder do I have to add myself to P1_Owners ;D
Jul 09 09:19:45 <cybaea> What's with the '75 dpi' reported by xdpyinfo?
Jul 09 09:19:57 <cybaea> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001353.html
Jul 09 09:21:30 * Psi_ adds to P1 Owners
Jul 09 09:22:17 <CM> Psi_: :D
Jul 09 09:22:28 <ynezz> anybody received order confirmation yet?
Jul 09 09:22:41 <CM> Nothing since that automated reply
Jul 09 09:22:51 <Psi_> same
Jul 09 09:22:52 <tuukkah> cybaea, don't trust X on 75 dpi, that's an uninformed default value
Jul 09 09:22:56 * aloril doesn't consider himself P1 owner until he has one in hand (and has at least installed something on it)
Jul 09 09:23:11 <xkr47> roh, thanks :)
Jul 09 09:23:33 <cybaea> Yeah, I realize it is more, but lots of apps use that value.  Sigh.  I guess that is why we get the *developers" version ;-)
Jul 09 09:24:02 * andylockran adds to P1 Owners
Jul 09 09:24:15 <aloril> cybaea: well, I think that is minor issue compared to other stuff (like segfaults in some apps)
Jul 09 09:24:31 * cybaea laughs and agrees with aloril
Jul 09 09:24:31 <andylockran> anyone find out who got order 1973?
Jul 09 09:25:29 <andylockran> MYSQL just died on the wiki?
Jul 09 09:25:35 <CM> hrw: 1.8.6 works fine, I added a bug to gentoo to update it. Thanks
Jul 09 09:25:54 <Psi_> andylockran, its just overloaded
Jul 09 09:26:08 <Psi_> i got that, but after a few refreshes it came up
Jul 09 09:26:25 <SpeedEvil> Wohoo! I has a package!
Jul 09 09:26:47 <SpeedEvil> Alas, it's just accelerometers and assorted other stuff to go in a Neo.
Jul 09 09:27:16 <Psi_> from who? digikey?
Jul 09 09:27:27 <SpeedEvil> No, freescale
Jul 09 09:27:33 <roh> andylockran works here... just a bit slow, but i feel good it survives at all
Jul 09 09:27:41 <SpeedEvil> with the 'buy  onlune' thing
Jul 09 09:27:46 <aloril> oh, 1820 is earliest known number (one less than at P1_Owners page)
Jul 09 09:29:56 * SpeedEvil hopes he'll have cash for a Neo by the time the next run hits.
Jul 09 09:32:58 <andylockran> so is everyone waiting for a confirmation email then?
Jul 09 09:33:06 <Psi_> yep
Jul 09 09:33:52 <SpeedEvil> So that's what - over 200 orders, in 10 hours
Jul 09 09:34:00 <hrw> hej mmazur 
Jul 09 09:34:03 <aloril> andylockran: that should happen quite fast
Jul 09 09:34:30 <aloril> andylockran: it might be that you didn't get order trough if you are still waiting
Jul 09 09:34:45 <SpeedEvil> aloril: the 'we received your form' is not a confirmation mail.
Jul 09 09:34:50 <mmazur> hrw, me buy. mine mine mine :)
Jul 09 09:34:59 <SpeedEvil> They still need to check the CC number validates
Jul 09 09:35:02 <mmazur> What is the number of produced phones?
Jul 09 09:35:08 <SpeedEvil> Around a thousand
Jul 09 09:35:14 <aloril> hour ago it was 360 ticket numbers (==orders?)
Jul 09 09:35:20 <mmazur> Ok crap.
Jul 09 09:35:23 <mmazur> Gotta hurry then.
Jul 09 09:35:26 <SpeedEvil> So it's likely a third to a half have sold.
Jul 09 09:35:44 <aloril> SpeedEvil: yeah, true, I though he was talking about that mail
Jul 09 09:35:46 <mmazur> aloril, when did taking orders start?
Jul 09 09:36:10 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: last night - 1AM or so BST
Jul 09 09:36:16 <SpeedEvil> 10 hours ago?
Jul 09 09:36:35 <mmazur> Ok, so I'm safe to place my order in an hour or two, at the present rate.
Jul 09 09:36:59 <ewanm89_laptop> 1AM == 9.5 hours ago.
Jul 09 09:37:03 <Psi_> i doubt we will hit 1000 for atleast a day or two
Jul 09 09:37:14 <SpeedEvil> The rate early on was 1/minute
Jul 09 09:37:19 <aloril> 2007-07-08 22:35:17 <Jason1>    GOT MINE ORDERED!!!!!!!
Jul 09 09:37:42 <aloril> for first order, now here is 12:37 (about 14h later)
Jul 09 09:38:03 <hrw> mmazur: I have two on desk 
Jul 09 09:38:07 <SpeedEvil> It seems to have dropped to around 15/hour now.
Jul 09 09:38:57 <SpeedEvil> (some may be ordering 11, which will screw the numbers. I don't know if you can order 11 of each)
Jul 09 09:39:16 <SpeedEvil> (11 is the max)
Jul 09 09:40:45 <aloril> SpeedEvil: nope, it counts them together
Jul 09 09:42:01 * aloril thinks word is still spreading, at least google is finding blog posts faster
Jul 09 09:42:32 <SpeedEvil> roh: any word of a new run being contemplated?
Jul 09 09:42:44 <xkr47> is somebody collecting coverage links ?-)
Jul 09 09:44:01 <tuukkah> isn't it a bit bad for getting news stories that the press release isn't there?
Jul 09 09:44:13 <rgl> at http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-04-software.html there is a block diagram that separates the finger from stylus applications, does that mean I can't use my fingers in the stylus applications, like the contacts?
Jul 09 09:44:28 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jul 09 09:44:43 <SpeedEvil> It means that some applications will not meaningfully be usable in some applications.
Jul 09 09:44:48 <SpeedEvil> At least for all applications.
Jul 09 09:44:50 <SpeedEvil> Err
Jul 09 09:45:00 <SpeedEvil> for all actions in that application.
Jul 09 09:45:15 <Stephmw> tuukkah: hopefully it'll follow later
Jul 09 09:45:20 <hads> You also get shocks if you try to use your finger in a stylus application :)
Jul 09 09:45:29 <mmazur> Yup.
Jul 09 09:45:31 <mmazur> That'll teach'em.
Jul 09 09:45:38 <SpeedEvil> Expect more apps to be fingerable as time goes on.
Jul 09 09:46:14 <rgl> I see.  /me likes to use is fingers!
Jul 09 09:48:54 <mdt> hi everybody!
Jul 09 09:50:17 <miki> have we got confirmation that there's no ac charger in the delivery? 
Jul 09 09:51:10 <CM> miki: Didn't Seans mail last week say that a charger was included?
Jul 09 09:52:38 <emdete> can't the phone be charged via usb?
Jul 09 09:52:38 <aloril> emdete: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 09:53:21 <aloril> it is charged via USB
Jul 09 09:53:59 <Morglet> Well remember that USA hasn't got to work yet, so the real Slashdot effect is still to be felt.
Jul 09 09:54:34 <Psi_> hehe forgot about that
Jul 09 09:55:15 <Morglet> And west coast USA still not for another 6h.
Jul 09 09:57:34 <Morglet> If FIC sales/marketting are any good, they'll have negociated with Fender or Gibson to send out branded guitar picks for opening the case ... brand placement. :-)))
Jul 09 09:58:56 <cybaea> Oh, build failed :(
Jul 09 09:59:01 <tuukkah> Morglet, a bunch of openmoko picks that you can share with your guitar-playing friends, even
Jul 09 09:59:17 <Psi_> heh
Jul 09 09:59:25 <cybaea> Anybody seen:   tic: symbol lookup error: tic: undefined symbol: _nc_check_termtype
Jul 09 10:02:33 <hardskinone> hi, I'm trying using OpenMokoMakefile but I get this message: (Nopaste) http://rafb.net/p/S0CioG81.html 
Jul 09 10:03:40 <hardskinone> Do the error reffers to a missing "fstats" package in my distro (Ubuntu 7.04)?
Jul 09 10:04:51 <Morglet> tuukkah: ah yes, emphasis on sharing, pick the right pick, pick the right music, share the music :-)
Jul 09 10:05:31 <Morglet> tuukkah: this is why one needs marketting people --- total lack of logic.  As techies, we can't do marketting, we're too logical :-)))
Jul 09 10:06:13 * cybaea is confused by the suggested workaround at http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2554
Jul 09 10:08:00 <ewanm89_laptop> boost+monotone still not playing: http://pastebin.ca/610203 ??
Jul 09 10:08:01 <miki> CM: yes, the announcement said ac adapter was included but it isn't on the package coentents list at .com
Jul 09 10:10:58 <miki> hardskinone: maybe, or it is missing a bitbake/oe package. Maybe a make update will help you? I've done a Feisty build without any problems (just takes loooong)
Jul 09 10:13:21 <hardskinone> miki, thx. I'll try a make update, if fails i'll check for missing packages.
Jul 09 10:13:59 <cybaea> Has anybody compiled on Fedora 7 x86_64?
Jul 09 10:15:27 <daxxar> omg, 7GB for MokoMakefile? o.0
Jul 09 10:15:55 <cybaea> daxxar: Disk is cheap.  ;-) And there is an option to reduce the space it uses.
Jul 09 10:16:14 <cybaea> (apparently.  I can't compile)
Jul 09 10:16:15 <hardskinone> daxxar, check the "Tips" section on wiki :)
Jul 09 10:16:16 <SpeedEvil> daxxar: consider it's got source trees for X, ...
Jul 09 10:16:35 <daxxar> SpeedEvil: Ah. :-)
Jul 09 10:16:41 <daxxar> But is that needed for Xephyr/x86?
Jul 09 10:16:57 <SpeedEvil> Possibly not.
Jul 09 10:17:14 <SpeedEvil> If you just wanted to build software that wasn't present on the host.
Jul 09 10:17:23 <SpeedEvil> But that's a whole new level of complexity
Jul 09 10:17:29 <daxxar> Hehe, okay
Jul 09 10:17:30 <daxxar> I'll skip it :-P
Jul 09 10:18:17 <daxxar> cybaea: 'tis for my laptop, where it's more of a hassle with diskspace. ;-)
Jul 09 10:18:31 <daxxar> And I've got a dualboot, plus a vendor-specific recovery-partition, so they're hogging their share.
Jul 09 10:18:41 <SpeedEvil> Quick straw-poll: Hardware. Who would be interested in a 3-axis accellerometer add-on for their P1 phone. Plug into the debug port. Cost maybe $40.
Jul 09 10:18:47 <cybaea> I feel your pain.  Use the magic local.conf option
Jul 09 10:19:07 <cybaea> SpeedEvil: not me
Jul 09 10:19:10 <SpeedEvil> With kernel driver, reporting accel events over a mouse-like interface
Jul 09 10:19:53 <SpeedEvil> Internal to the phone.
Jul 09 10:20:37 <Psi_> seems like a lot of work to go to when you could just wait a few months and get the neo with one built in
Jul 09 10:21:10 <cybaea> The Neo is 2 axis?
Jul 09 10:21:25 <SpeedEvil> Not really for users. Undo a couple of screws, plug in, job done.
Jul 09 10:21:26 <Psi_> afaik the next model is 3-axis
Jul 09 10:22:06 <Psi_> SpeedEvil, i was more meaning the software to use it
Jul 09 10:22:11 <notserpe>  speed: I'd probably be interested in one
Jul 09 10:22:12 <SpeedEvil> 3 axis with possibly very bad accelerometers, if the ML post was accurate and they haven't changed which one they were planning.
Jul 09 10:23:14 <SpeedEvil> notserpe: just got the bits today - have to prototype first. Probably going to be delayed till I get a neo - maybe till the next run, it's quite likely they'll run out before I can get cash - couple of weeks.
Jul 09 10:24:22 <cybaea> Psi_: you are right.  There are two of them, which is why I got confused.  Happens easily to me these days.... ;-)
Jul 09 10:25:45 <roh> aloril: the ticketnumbers have no direct correlation to the number of orders. its a RT-id which means its rising, unique, but this includes all queues, not only oders
Jul 09 10:25:50 <roh> eh orders
Jul 09 10:26:29 <roh> aloril: its about a bit < 350  tickets now, which means atleast that much mokos
Jul 09 10:28:27 * cybaea thinks building openmoko is waaaay too hard....
Jul 09 10:28:36 <SpeedEvil> roh: any feeling as to how long a new run might take?
Jul 09 10:29:11 <roh> SpeedEvil nope.. but when its clear that its needed it will be ran asap afaik
Jul 09 10:29:43 <SpeedEvil> Well - I'd say 1/3+ sold in 10 hours pretty much means they'll be gone in a week.
Jul 09 10:29:49 <SpeedEvil> But...
Jul 09 10:29:52 <roh> SpeedEvil due to the complicated delivery via us it takes a few days, so if we hurry it should be nearly seemless
Jul 09 10:30:09 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jul 09 10:30:20 <roh> SpeedEvil eh. 350 is the number of tickets, not mokos. some people want more than one or group-order
Jul 09 10:30:29 * cybaea finally got past the ncurses compile problem...
Jul 09 10:30:38 <ewon> so, as it currently stands, can one make and receive calls with the moko?
Jul 09 10:30:46 <SpeedEvil> roh: yes - 1/3+ 
Jul 09 10:31:10 <SpeedEvil> roh: is there an actual counting process, or do you say 'oops' if there are lots of people ordering 10? 
Jul 09 10:31:13 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: why no lowlevel_foo for gtaXX ?
Jul 09 10:31:42 <roh> SpeedEvil the funny bet would be if of if not were sold out via 24hours ;)
Jul 09 10:32:57 <cybaea> how many did they produce in the first batch?
Jul 09 10:33:00 <tuukkah> Morglet, well techies can be good at priming the market by selling to other techies. then to make the rest logical, you indeed need to understand something illogical :-)
Jul 09 10:33:05 <roh> SpeedEvil we will not shut down the shop, no. we will just send a mail that it takes longer. its not that bad as initially, now when the process is set up
Jul 09 10:33:14 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Jul 09 10:33:59 <ewanm89_laptop> boost+monotone still not playing: http://pastebin.ca/610203 ??
Jul 09 10:34:33 * cybaea groans at another compile problem
Jul 09 10:35:27 <Psi_> ok, i dunno if anyone has already done this, but i adding up the 'P1 buyers interest list' and the 'P1 owners list'. The avg number of phones per user is 1.102425876
Jul 09 10:35:50 <Psi_> so say 1.1
Jul 09 10:36:31 * cybaea thought MomoMakeFile was supposed to grab all the patches....
Jul 09 10:36:46 <Psi_> so at 350 tickets that's something like 385 phones
Jul 09 10:36:48 <roh> Psi_ which is totally bogus because there is a huge number of people who would never put their name into a wiki for such a reason ;)
Jul 09 10:37:34 <Psi_> roh, they didnt put their name in the list because they didnt want me to avg them ?
Jul 09 10:37:58 * Oizo2nuit s'absente : miam
Jul 09 10:38:21 <Psi_> and i know its not a real value, its an educated guess based on the data available
Jul 09 10:39:06 <cybaea> how do I apply a patch in openembedded/ and not have it go away in the future?
Jul 09 10:39:22 <cybaea> Can I just dump it in openembeded/patches?
Jul 09 10:40:16 <ewanm89_laptop> did someone reply to my last post?
Jul 09 10:41:15 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03werner * r2374 10/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/oe-sync: - removed to avoid confusing merge work
Jul 09 10:41:21 <ewon> wooo, ordered
Jul 09 10:41:31 <Psi_> what number?
Jul 09 10:41:46 <ewon> haven't got the email yet
Jul 09 10:41:51 <CM> cybaea: I didn't need any extra patches
Jul 09 10:42:12 <cybaea> CM: I need the one from http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2553
Jul 09 10:42:20 <CM> cybaea: I did need to symlink some page/asm.h or something like that, but I can't remember exactly
Jul 09 10:42:21 <sannes> Psi_: My reason for not putting myself of any of the lists is because it really doesn't make a difference :)
Jul 09 10:42:44 <andylockran> was the vmware image of teh dev environment ever completed?
Jul 09 10:42:47 <cybaea> I am not quite sure how this build system works yet....
Jul 09 10:43:33 <aLeSD> hi all
Jul 09 10:43:36 <cybaea> (Or a version of that patch)
Jul 09 10:44:14 <aLeSD> I have a i386 ... I 'd like to port some software on the openmoko system .. does exist a simulator ?
Jul 09 10:44:14 <aloril> aLeSD: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 10:44:31 <CM> cybaea: I haven't added any patch manually either, but there's been descriptopns on how to do it on the mailinglist.
Jul 09 10:45:08 <aLeSD> :)
Jul 09 10:45:15 <notserpe> what does everyone think of Java on the Neo?
Jul 09 10:45:57 * mmazur thinks it's great; it'll allow us to like write apps for the phone ;)
Jul 09 10:46:02 <dcorking> does the photo at the top right of this http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-advanced-00-develkit.html show a dashboard mount holster?
Jul 09 10:46:33 <notserpe> mmazur: are you only a Java programmer? ;-)
Jul 09 10:46:43 <mmazur> Just kidding :)
Jul 09 10:46:50 <bedboi> notserpe: i like the "only" :)
Jul 09 10:47:01 <mmazur> One think wonders me though -- is there a free version of the embedded java platform to use?
Jul 09 10:47:04 <mdt> notserpe, i dont think java is needed on an phone with am open development environment - you don't have the problem that java solves.
Jul 09 10:47:19 <ewon> mmazur: superwaba can probably be made to work on it. It's not Real Java(tm) though.
Jul 09 10:47:36 <hrw> mdt: I have one important for me javaME app on my current phone
Jul 09 10:47:47 <mdt> :D google maps?
Jul 09 10:47:51 <ewon> mdt: yes, but it allows easy porting of java apps. For instance, I've written a superwaba app I'd really like to see run on my openmoko
Jul 09 10:47:53 <CM> notserpe: There's many people interested in getting the open j2me jre working on the neo
Jul 09 10:47:56 <univac> polakow coraz wiecej
Jul 09 10:47:58 <univac> ;]
Jul 09 10:48:01 <ewon> univac: english pls
Jul 09 10:48:07 <univac> yhy.
Jul 09 10:48:08 <Kero> ha, I want Ruby on my Neo :)
Jul 09 10:48:17 <tuukkah> j2me is free and open source, right?
Jul 09 10:48:30 <hardskinone> +1 for j2me on Neo.
Jul 09 10:48:33 <CM> Kero: Heh, I think it's available in opennembedded already
Jul 09 10:48:35 <mdt> but java is a sandbox env, you don't reach all the nice features of a phone
Jul 09 10:48:46 <Kero> CM: I think so, too (saves me the work! :)
Jul 09 10:48:53 <hrw> mdt: no, local public transport stations schedule
Jul 09 10:48:56 <CM> tuukkah: It is, but last I checked it was a real pain to even build it
Jul 09 10:49:31 <tuukkah> mdt, depends on the primitive classes you implement natively
Jul 09 10:49:40 <mmazur> Shipping cost
Jul 09 10:49:44 <mmazur> $96.99 USD
Jul 09 10:49:49 <mmazur> $146.42 USD
Jul 09 10:49:51 <mmazur> Ouch.
Jul 09 10:49:56 <mdt> tuukkah, yes, but there is no JEP for the interesting stuff right now
Jul 09 10:50:21 <tuukkah> mmazur, order with some other people together
Jul 09 10:50:21 <CM> cybaea: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Developing_with_MokoMakefile
Jul 09 10:50:44 <CM> cybaea: That's how to use quilt to add the patch
Jul 09 10:50:50 <cybaea> thanks CM
Jul 09 10:51:20 <tuukkah> mdt, you don't need to standardize everything. it won't be write-once-run-anywhere but it will make porting from other platforms a lot easier
Jul 09 10:51:43 * CM is a complete quilt newbie
Jul 09 10:52:01 <tuukkah> for example the vast amount of j2me games is nice to have on a platform
Jul 09 10:52:25 <mdt> okay, for games. this is not of interest for me ;)
Jul 09 10:52:58 <tuukkah> mdt, it's of interest to the users :-)
Jul 09 10:53:40 <notserpe> I'm not sure we need J2ME to enable $10 cell games market on Moko.
Jul 09 10:53:53 <woglinde> phoneme
Jul 09 10:54:06 <mdt> tuukkah, there would be more impartent stuff to do before ;)
Jul 09 10:54:06 <tuukkah> need vs. nice to have
Jul 09 10:54:13 <mdt> :)
Jul 09 10:54:15 <woglinde> but you must port the gtklib to gtk 2.0
Jul 09 10:54:38 <woglinde> and midp support is not it
Jul 09 10:55:05 <mdt> how about svg/js?
Jul 09 10:55:15 <rd_> any idea why the shipping cost is too expensive?
Jul 09 10:55:22 <woglinde> hm any info how much orders till now?
Jul 09 10:55:27 <andylockran> rd_: everything goes through the us
Jul 09 10:55:42 <rd_> 120USD for shipping in my case
Jul 09 10:55:53 <ewon> superwaba should be easily portable to the moko
Jul 09 10:58:08 <mdt> does the phone use gsm0710 (i read so) and is there already a daemon for that? i implemented one recently - any interests?
Jul 09 10:59:07 <jb_vlc> Hello.
Jul 09 10:59:49 <woglinde> whats gsm0710?
Jul 09 10:59:55 <andylockran> where will the repo of dev apps be?
Jul 09 10:59:57 <jb_vlc> Where do I start to port an application to the phone ?
Jul 09 10:59:57 <aloril> jb_vlc: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 11:00:00 <Morglet> 234 comments on Slashdot, so it's already a big league thread even though it's still 2h before east coast USA gets to the office.
Jul 09 11:00:50 <mdt> 0710 is a muxer protocol used with gsm modems
Jul 09 11:01:33 <mdt> which gsm chip is used in the phone?
Jul 09 11:01:43 <woglinde> look at wiki side
Jul 09 11:01:47 <Morglet> mdt: can you GSM mux through the AT commandset?
Jul 09 11:01:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Miki]] [[Alternate_Neo1973_case_designs]] [[FAQ/de]] [[Group_Order]] [[Introduction/de]] [[Template:Languages]] [[Translation_HOWTO/ro]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Talk:Main_Page/it]] [[Main_Page/it]] and other changes
Jul 09 11:02:34 <mdt> Moriarty_, for 0710 you switch on the muxer with AT+CMUX - after that the communication is binary
Jul 09 11:02:56 <Stephmw> woglinde: J2ME support isn't that far away really. there's MIDPath available that should really only need a little work (it already has GTK support)
Jul 09 11:03:02 <mdt> Moriarty_, but in the channels you have AT commands again, shure
Jul 09 11:03:27 <mmazur> Hmmm. Why isn't the order filling fully online?
Jul 09 11:03:51 <woglinde> stephmw hehe phoneme is opensource too, but gained not much attention
Jul 09 11:03:54 <mmazur> (that is -- I get an immidiate response)
Jul 09 11:04:30 <Stephmw> woglinde: if you have a look at the MIDPath site, you'll it's based on phoneME sources
Jul 09 11:04:40 <Stephmw> *see
Jul 09 11:04:53 <woglinde> ah right that was the fork
Jul 09 11:04:54 <roh> mdt its a ti calypso
Jul 09 11:05:03 <Morglet> LOL, phoneme is so different to phoneME :-)
Jul 09 11:05:06 <SpeedEvil> rd_: it's pretty much on the normal line for UPS
Jul 09 11:05:15 <mdt> roh, any link to some docs?
Jul 09 11:05:20 <SpeedEvil> rd_: UPS is annoyingly expensive.
Jul 09 11:05:28 <roh> mdt afaik harald has some half-ported code for the kernel from openezx for ts0710
Jul 09 11:05:30 <SpeedEvil> mdt: TI mostly NDA it
Jul 09 11:05:57 <mdt> okay... i am out for lunch... see you
Jul 09 11:06:00 <SpeedEvil> mdt: you might wander round the ti.com site and see what you can find
Jul 09 11:06:21 <roh> mdt nope.. for the ti stuff we cannot give out documentation. but what do you want to knowm exactly?
Jul 09 11:08:32 <dcorking> I think the car kit in the Hackers Lunchbox was quietly dropped - the pic at http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-advanced-00-develkit.html seems to show a dashboard mount, but it is not listed in the inventory below.  Am I right?
Jul 09 11:09:04 <daxxar> http://rafb.net/p/IEaKag14.html -- anyone know what causes this error when building for x86?
Jul 09 11:09:05 <SpeedEvil> The dashboard mount is nothing special AIUI. 
Jul 09 11:09:07 <jb_vlc> Can I develop an application with the standard version ?
Jul 09 11:09:11 <SpeedEvil> No power or GSM antenna
Jul 09 11:09:14 <SpeedEvil> jb_vlc: yes
Jul 09 11:09:23 <SpeedEvil> jb_vlc: almost nobody actually needs the debug board
Jul 09 11:09:25 <daxxar> The only thing I can understand is an 'error' is "read jobs pipe: No such file or directory.  Stop." - which makes no sense to me.
Jul 09 11:09:53 <jb_vlc> SpeedEvil: any advice to start porting an application to it ?
Jul 09 11:10:15 <andylockran> is anyone going to the openstreetmap conference?
Jul 09 11:11:00 <CM> daxxar: Never seen that error before, but it looks like a missing file or something
Jul 09 11:11:16 <woglinde> stephwm ah cacao opened already the mips and arm port
Jul 09 11:12:51 <SpeedEvil> jb_vlc: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework may be of use
Jul 09 11:13:02 <SpeedEvil> jb_vlc: it's basically X.
Jul 09 11:14:53 <SpeedEvil> jb_vlc: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_Where_can_I_find_some_type_of_tutorial_for_a_.27Hello.2C_world.27_on_OpenMoko.3F basically
Jul 09 11:15:03 <jb_vlc> I'll give an eye on it, then, if it is not too complicated
Jul 09 11:15:16 <jb_vlc> well, Hello World might be too easy :D
Jul 09 11:15:50 <jb_vlc> It'll depend on the toolchain I guess :D
Jul 09 11:18:23 <SpeedEvil> jb_vlc: Initially, you can pretty much compile for your normal computer, just using GTK
Jul 09 11:18:41 * cybaea is compiling again .. finally
Jul 09 11:18:56 <jb_vlc> SpeedEvil: and command line too ? 
Jul 09 11:19:10 <ewon> does the 1973 ship with openmoko installed?
Jul 09 11:19:25 <woglinde> ewon yes
Jul 09 11:19:30 <ewon> cool.
Jul 09 11:19:36 <ewon> can it make and receive phone calls?
Jul 09 11:19:41 <sannes> probably already outdated ? :P
Jul 09 11:19:52 <woglinde> that I dont know
Jul 09 11:19:56 <woglinde> roh knows maybee
Jul 09 11:20:06 <roh> not really
Jul 09 11:20:19 <roh> propably you have to do an update first.
Jul 09 11:20:41 <roh> and its develversion. i dunno if the dialer is working atm
Jul 09 11:22:45 <jb_vlc> SpeedEvil: thanks. I'll give an eye on OE and the cmpiler things. And I'll wait october :D
Jul 09 11:23:37 <woglinde> lol 20 comments more in 5 minutes on heise.de
Jul 09 11:27:43 * Oizo2nuit est de retour
Jul 09 11:27:50 <Viko> Will GTA02 have USB2?
Jul 09 11:27:54 <jeddy3> how about non-international characters in adress fields anyone, can i use that without order form going crazy? :)
Jul 09 11:27:57 <SpeedEvil> No. Viko 
Jul 09 11:30:11 <mmazur> What's the max speed of usb1?
Jul 09 11:30:16 <mmazur> In openmoko?
Jul 09 11:30:24 <CM> cybaea: Sometimes when the build fails it's just to restart it and then everything magically works. Happened a 2-3 times when I've built from scratch, usually because of failing svn checkouts
Jul 09 11:30:31 <SpeedEvil> mmazur a megabyte/second or so
Jul 09 11:31:08 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: call it 20 minutes to load 1 gig.
Jul 09 11:31:58 <hardskinone> I still get the same error :*( http://rafb.net/p/BJDONJ64.html
Jul 09 11:32:11 <jeddy3> CM, there?
Jul 09 11:32:19 <hardskinone> I double check installed packages.. al ok.
Jul 09 11:32:21 <CM> jeddy3: As always ;)
Jul 09 11:32:27 <jeddy3> CM :)
Jul 09 11:32:48 <jeddy3> CM, har du några åäö som blev manglade i formuläret? :)
Jul 09 11:33:25 <CM> jeddy3: Ja, jag skippade alla åäö. Räknade med att de hade något fult perl-script och att åäö skulle sabba det. ;)
Jul 09 11:33:34 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, more then enough for gprs then.
Jul 09 11:33:45 * CM lives in Goteborg in Vastra Gotaland
Jul 09 11:33:49 <SpeedEvil> Yeah. Or it's got bluetooth.
Jul 09 11:34:43 <jeddy3> CM, mmm, det blev ä osv...funderade på att det är bättre att bara göra om dom till aao
Jul 09 11:34:59 <jeddy3> CM, precis
Jul 09 11:35:22 <rzr> hi
Jul 09 11:35:42 <rzr> too bad that there is no camera on '73
Jul 09 11:35:52 <woglinde> jesus
Jul 09 11:36:01 <woglinde> bad bad bad
Jul 09 11:39:10 <Sup3rkiddo> can anyone please tell me if the devices are sold out?
Jul 09 11:39:53 <SpeedEvil> Not yet.
Jul 09 11:40:02 <SpeedEvil> Probably around 1/3-1/2 sold
Jul 09 11:40:04 <CM> Sup3rkiddo: If they are, roh said they'll just manufacture more and you'll be notified of the delay in the order confirmation mail
Jul 09 11:40:09 <SpeedEvil> And that.
Jul 09 11:40:18 <CM> The shop will remain open
Jul 09 11:40:36 <Sup3rkiddo> CM, ok cool..so i guess i can squeeze out a day
Jul 09 11:40:57 * andylockran has just seen the stylus for the '73, and is highly excited..
Jul 09 11:41:10 <Psi_> hehe
Jul 09 11:41:16 <SpeedEvil> andylockran: they are readily available on ebay for cheap
Jul 09 11:41:52 <andylockran> SpeedEvil: I don't know how I'm so out of it considering I've been reading all emails on the list since january,,,
Jul 09 11:42:34 <SpeedEvil> andylockran: it may simply have been mentioned on IRC
Jul 09 11:42:36 <SpeedEvil> dunno
Jul 09 11:42:52 <andylockran> yeah, there does seem to be a lot more going on in here
Jul 09 11:43:06 <andylockran> only been on irc for 5 days now though, so good to be here..
Jul 09 11:43:45 <Sup3rkiddo> i heard that the shipping + advanced kit = 569$...
Jul 09 11:43:59 <Sup3rkiddo> frigging card allows 500$ per transaction
Jul 09 11:45:18 <ewanm89_laptop> Anyone know shipping to the UK?
Jul 09 11:45:30 <SpeedEvil> ewanm89_laptop: $80
Jul 09 11:45:42 <SpeedEvil> ewanm89_laptop: wander over to [[Group Order]] on the wiki
Jul 09 11:46:15 <ewanm89_laptop> SpeedEvil: Yeah, but I have a slight problem with who has a credit/debit card
Jul 09 11:46:52 <Sup3rkiddo> in india?
Jul 09 11:47:43 <Sup3rkiddo> anyone know shipping to india?
Jul 09 11:47:43 <ewanm89_laptop> 7 UK
Jul 09 11:47:43 <ewanm89_laptop> Organiser: 
Jul 09 11:52:37 <ewanm89_laptop> Is that $80 without group order?
Jul 09 11:52:41 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jul 09 11:52:52 <ewanm89_laptop> Thanks
Jul 09 11:53:02 <ewanm89_laptop> Any taxes to worry about?
Jul 09 11:53:09 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jul 09 11:53:26 <SpeedEvil> You will probably be hit with VAT and import duty
Jul 09 11:53:59 <ewanm89_laptop> SpeedEvil: That was my guess, know the current rates for import duty?
Jul 09 11:54:10 <SpeedEvil> probably around 50 quid total.
Jul 09 11:54:22 <SpeedEvil> VAT at 17.5%, and import duty at 6%
Jul 09 11:54:35 <daxxar> I get the same error (http://rafb.net/p/IEaKag14.html) after I did rm -r on everything except local.conf and Makefile, then make setup && make openmoko-devel-image
Jul 09 11:54:39 <SpeedEvil> I think - I haven't looked up for special rates on phones
Jul 09 11:55:23 <roh> daxxar on which distro are you?
Jul 09 11:55:36 <daxxar> Ubuntu
Jul 09 11:55:39 <daxxar> Feisty Fawn
Jul 09 11:56:00 <roh> is your /bin/sh linked to dash?
Jul 09 11:56:46 <daxxar> daxxar@unsane:/home/moko$ ls -l $(which sh)
Jul 09 11:56:46 <daxxar> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2007-07-09 12:09 /bin/sh -> /bin/bash
Jul 09 11:56:55 <daxxar> I changed that manually as per the instructions
Jul 09 11:56:58 <Sup3rkiddo> 19,40 ? in INR
Jul 09 11:56:59 <roh> ok
Jul 09 11:57:03 <Sup3rkiddo> oops
Jul 09 11:57:21 * ben_goodger points out that if this requires /bin/sh to be linked to /bin/bash, it is the script that is broken
Jul 09 11:58:18 <Sup3rkiddo> roh, in the event of selling out soon, and if i order it after that, how delay do you reckon?...
Jul 09 11:58:28 <Sup3rkiddo> it = neo
Jul 09 11:58:33 <roh> Sup3rkiddo i really dunno
Jul 09 11:58:37 <jeddy3> what was the story on the previous shipping occations?, DHL versus UPS, one charged for VAT and one didn't am i right?
Jul 09 11:59:19 <Sup3rkiddo> roh, oh..sorry, but i take it that devices will be manufactured as and when orders pour in
Jul 09 11:59:32 <SpeedEvil> Sup3rkiddo: yes.
Jul 09 11:59:56 <Sup3rkiddo> SpeedEvil, :P ok
Jul 09 11:59:58 <ben_goodger> I have a question concerning pricing: why is this device suddenly going to rocket seventy quid when it's released on the mass market?
Jul 09 12:00:15 <pjz> ben_goodger: because it's gaining wifi and some other thardware features
Jul 09 12:00:31 <roh> Sup3rkiddo i think when its obvious we run out soon that whole process will take only a few weeks
Jul 09 12:00:34 <SpeedEvil> wifi, hardware acceleration, accelerometers.
Jul 09 12:00:46 <Sup3rkiddo> roh, right...
Jul 09 12:00:50 <ben_goodger> oh, I see. I missed that
Jul 09 12:00:52 <ben_goodger> thanks
Jul 09 12:01:18 * daxxar tries removing -j 3
Jul 09 12:01:23 <guillaum1> hi all
Jul 09 12:01:30 <Stephmw> hey guillaum1 
Jul 09 12:01:58 <guillaum1> direct.openmoko.com seems still down ...
Jul 09 12:02:00 <Stephmw> ben_goodger: there's also the coolness factor
Jul 09 12:02:16 <Stephmw> ben_goodger: extra tax :D
Jul 09 12:02:35 <Stephmw> guillaum1: currently working for me
Jul 09 12:02:39 <Fatal> "I used my openmoko phone when it was underground" ?
Jul 09 12:02:47 <Stephmw> guillaum1: at least, it's loading the page
Jul 09 12:02:50 <ben_goodger> guh
Jul 09 12:02:54 <ben_goodger> damn this government
Jul 09 12:03:09 <guillaum1> Stephmw, I can't go to the second step
Jul 09 12:03:17 <guillaum1> blank page
Jul 09 12:03:19 <Stephmw> ben_goodger: I'm going to wait for WiFi + .eu shipping source
Jul 09 12:03:24 <Stephmw> ben_goodger: to avoid that damned VAT
Jul 09 12:03:36 <ben_goodger> mmm, gotta love the EU
Jul 09 12:03:38 <Stephmw> guillaum1: ah
Jul 09 12:03:41 * mmazur gonna have the underground version
Jul 09 12:03:42 <mmazur> 1337
Jul 09 12:03:50 <CM> guillaum1: There's some bug with that if you dont have a capital letter on State
Jul 09 12:03:59 <Stephmw> guillaum1: I'd try it... but I'm not allowed another gadget this year... already spent my cash :(
Jul 09 12:04:07 <ben_goodger> then again, £225 seems a little steep anyway, but I suppose it's really a PDA
Jul 09 12:04:20 <SpeedEvil> ben_goodger: compare with similar phones.
Jul 09 12:04:21 <mmazur> It is.
Jul 09 12:04:24 <guillaum1> CM, ah ok. thanks for the infos
Jul 09 12:04:27 <mmazur> PDA/gps device
Jul 09 12:04:31 <mmazur> Quite cheap as both I believe.
Jul 09 12:04:35 <SpeedEvil> ben_goodger: It's pretty much on a par, or a little cheaper.
Jul 09 12:04:52 <neuro`> Hello
Jul 09 12:05:03 <ben_goodger> ho hum
Jul 09 12:05:08 <ben_goodger> neuro`: hello
Jul 09 12:05:21 <ewon> good question - when my moko arrives here in the EU, am I going to get hit for customs / vat?
Jul 09 12:05:34 <cybaea> ewon: almost certainly
Jul 09 12:05:44 <ewon> ah _shit_
Jul 09 12:05:47 <neuro`> Does the phone already have WIFI ? Can't find anything bout this on the shop
Jul 09 12:05:47 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 09 12:06:07 <neuro`> This was quick
Jul 09 12:06:12 <roh> guillaum1 is your ZIP correct and complete? and did you enter a province/state and if yes in what format?
Jul 09 12:06:46 <guillaum1> CM, roh, I fill the state field with "PARIS" , zip is 75031
Jul 09 12:07:09 <Placid> Don't suppose there's any stats on how many have been sold are there? :D
Jul 09 12:07:17 <Placid> 'tis and exciting day man!
Jul 09 12:07:33 <roh> guillaum1 because we have a similar problem in US where they need to put in a 2 letter abbreviation of the state
Jul 09 12:07:52 <roh> you could try an abbr. or leaving state empty
Jul 09 12:08:31 * CM is surprised that State: Vastra Gotaland worked :D
Jul 09 12:08:32 <guillaum1> roh, an empty state field doesn't work too
Jul 09 12:08:56 <ben_goodger> I really hope this will be localised. I don't wish to call Cornwall a state
Jul 09 12:09:30 <roh> ben_goodger thats a maze the ups xml api has left us with *sigh*
Jul 09 12:09:35 <ewanm89_laptop> ewon: Don't you hate the european governments sometimes.
Jul 09 12:09:44 <ben_goodger> oh, lovely
Jul 09 12:09:45 <Placid> lol ben_goodger
Jul 09 12:09:53 <roh> till 10 minutes ago i though it only hits the us
Jul 09 12:10:09 <ben_goodger> and I suppose I'll have PL220LB rejected on the grounds of improper formatting too?
Jul 09 12:10:55 <roh> i dunno that encoding
Jul 09 12:11:21 <ben_goodger> postcode
Jul 09 12:11:39 <jeddy3> CM, NU såg jag att det inte kom fram något till dig...får inte skicka till dig som oreggad på freenode :P
Jul 09 12:11:43 <ben_goodger> some things demand a five-digit zip code, a la US
Jul 09 12:11:58 <CM> jeddy3: Aha, men registrera då din latmask ;)
Jul 09 12:13:23 <guillaum1> CM, you have typed VA, do you ?
Jul 09 12:13:49 <CM> guillaum1: What do you mean?
Jul 09 12:14:08 <guillaum1> CM,  Vastra Gotaland = VA :-D
Jul 09 12:14:13 <CM> I did put State: Vastra Gotaland and Zip 41456
Jul 09 12:15:36 <CM> ben_goodger: You're the Firefox guy btw?
Jul 09 12:16:32 <ben_goodger> nope
Jul 09 12:16:36 <ben_goodger> I wish I was
Jul 09 12:16:47 <CM> Hehe. Just recognized the name
Jul 09 12:16:54 <ben_goodger> but I just share his name and certain left-wing tendencies
Jul 09 12:19:44 <ewon> don't suppose the people shipping the moko are open to marking the thing as "GIFT"?
Jul 09 12:19:56 <SpeedEvil> That'd be fraud.
Jul 09 12:20:03 <ewon> true
Jul 09 12:20:23 * CM could appreciate a little fraud right now :P
Jul 09 12:20:24 <SpeedEvil> And would actually leave FIC open to lawsuits
Jul 09 12:20:29 <guillaum1> CM, roh, doesn't work... I tried Vastra Gotaland and Zip 41456, changed my name, removing spaces. nothing ... arggggggh
Jul 09 12:20:31 <Stephmw> and anyway... you haven't sent us any "GIFTs"
Jul 09 12:20:33 <ewon> it is a gift, in a way. I sent them some money out of the goodness of my heart, and now, due to them liking me so much, are sending me a moko
Jul 09 12:20:41 <mdt> as far as i know something like 'sample' would work...
Jul 09 12:20:54 <ewon> mdt: no
Jul 09 12:20:56 <Viko> With it being an open phone, it should be possible to get it shipped in modules with low enough value to avoid VAT :D
Jul 09 12:21:05 <Stephmw> ewon: which country are you in?
Jul 09 12:21:08 <CM> guillaum1: Maybe it's getting stuck on something else. I have a lot of åäö in my address, but changed them to aao 
Jul 09 12:21:17 <mdt> ewon, any better idea?
Jul 09 12:21:29 <CM> guillaum1: Maybe if you have some ô or ' or such you can try without them?
Jul 09 12:22:17 <guillaum1> CM, I  just have letters and numbers
Jul 09 12:22:25 <CM> Weird
Jul 09 12:22:28 <ynezz> marking it as "non-working developer sample" is ok i think
Jul 09 12:22:35 <ynezz> and it's true...
Jul 09 12:22:48 <mdt> ynezz, which country?
Jul 09 12:23:07 <ynezz> whole EU? 
Jul 09 12:24:26 <ynezz> well it have value, because you've bought it for $350
Jul 09 12:24:35 <ynezz> so you should pay a VAT
Jul 09 12:25:11 <ynezz> but it's still developer, non-working device
Jul 09 12:25:19 <ynezz> shouldn't be charged as working phone
Jul 09 12:25:46 <ynezz> i would tell the custom, ok if you claim it's working, there is a sim-card and call me...
Jul 09 12:25:49 <SpeedEvil> Go through the legislation, and find out if engineering samples have 0% CAT
Jul 09 12:26:02 <SpeedEvil> ynezz: that should actually be possible
Jul 09 12:26:05 <SpeedEvil> - if charged
Jul 09 12:26:16 <ben_goodger> ynezz: you can achieve the same results with my nokia 3100 and a fake battery
Jul 09 12:26:38 <ynezz> it's nokia, it won't work :)
Jul 09 12:26:39 * arw good morning/afternoon/etc :) to all 
Jul 09 12:26:53 <guillaum1> CM, roh, found the problem. In the list of country, I have to choose France and not France, Metropolitan. doesn't work with the latter
Jul 09 12:27:13 <ynezz> and i would charge the battery for him
Jul 09 12:27:16 <ynezz> that's not problem
Jul 09 12:27:23 <roh> ouch
Jul 09 12:27:56 <ben_goodger> why is metropolitan france considered a separate country?
Jul 09 12:28:22 <mdt> roh, again about gsm0710, do you think harald would be interested? (btw is harald here?)
Jul 09 12:28:26 <CM> I guess it shouldn't be in that listbox, since it doesn't work
Jul 09 12:28:44 <ynezz> hope there will be a invoice stating it's "developer preview"
Jul 09 12:28:53 <ynezz> +point for me when talking to custom
Jul 09 12:29:00 <Stephmw> ben_goodger: parisians are a different type of French :D
Jul 09 12:29:02 <CM> ynezz: I hope so too.
Jul 09 12:29:10 <ben_goodger> Stephmw: aha
Jul 09 12:29:26 <ben_goodger> sorry, the only experience I have of france is driving through it on the way to spain
Jul 09 12:29:44 <ben_goodger> peugeots seem ridiculously popular there
Jul 09 12:29:58 <Stephmw> what, you mean like Astras used to be here?
Jul 09 12:30:10 <ben_goodger> I wouldn't know about that
Jul 09 12:30:19 <Stephmw> ben_goodger: you're in the UK, no?
Jul 09 12:30:24 <ben_goodger> I can't even drive yet :P
Jul 09 12:30:31 <ben_goodger> well, not legally
Jul 09 12:30:38 <ben_goodger> yes, I am
Jul 09 12:30:45 <Stephmw> ahhhhhhh
Jul 09 12:31:02 <Stephmw> no wonder, yeah, Astras were a fad a bit before your time :D
Jul 09 12:31:10 <guillaum1> ben_goodger, some french territories are in the pacific for example
Jul 09 12:31:27 <ben_goodger> peugeots seem to outnumber the cars here, but I barely see anything else in france
Jul 09 12:32:43 <ben_goodger> guillaum1: yes, and French Polynesia deserves its own country entry, but not the built-up areas. it'd be like listing Plymouth as a county
Jul 09 12:33:24 <guillaum1> ben_goodger, right
Jul 09 12:34:03 <mmazur> Anybody got that confirmation email?
Jul 09 12:34:09 <mmazur> What's the From: address in it?
Jul 09 12:34:13 <mmazur> (you know, spameaters)
Jul 09 12:34:28 <Fatal> I'm still waiting for my collegue to decide if he wants one bad enough :)
Jul 09 12:35:18 <ynezz> mmazur: i think nobody got confirmation yet
Jul 09 12:35:28 <Stephmw> guillaum1: so... does that mean you've successfully ordered?
Jul 09 12:35:44 <CM> mmazur: or do you mean the automatic one that your ticket is registered?
Jul 09 12:35:52 <ewon> Stephmw: Im in Ireland
Jul 09 12:36:01 <mmazur> CM, there's an automatic one?
Jul 09 12:36:28 <CM> mmazur: Yes, got it as soon as I had placed the order (after step 3)
Jul 09 12:36:48 <CM> mmazur: From: Web Shop via RT <orders@openmoko.com> Jul 8 (16 hours ago)
Jul 09 12:38:16 <Stephmw> ewon: hmmm, as in the UK it's declared value (insurance purposes means it should be accurate) that dictates tax+duty... nothing else
Jul 09 12:38:19 <mmazur> Ok, thx, just fished it out of spam folder.
Jul 09 12:38:58 <ewon> Stephmw: apparently it it's deemed to be a computer I don't pay tax... do you think I can convince FIC to put "COMPUTER" on the package?
Jul 09 12:39:07 <ewon> that's not fraud
Jul 09 12:39:35 <mmazur> CM, someone should add info about that email to the website.
Jul 09 12:39:40 <Stephmw> ewon: well, maybe not duty... but still vat
Jul 09 12:39:50 <ewon> Stephmw: I know, but anything to reduce the cost :)
Jul 09 12:39:59 <guillaum1> Stephmw, yes ! right now
Jul 09 12:40:12 <andylockran> so theres no clue as to when they'll actually be shipped yet?
Jul 09 12:40:59 <ben_goodger> andylockran: did you even read the subject?
Jul 09 12:41:04 <guillaum1> CM, roh, thanks for your help ! It's ok now
Jul 09 12:41:05 <ben_goodger> "http://cvcl.mit.edu/hybrid_gallery/tatcher_blair.html"
Jul 09 12:41:08 <ben_goodger> oops
Jul 09 12:41:11 <ben_goodger> Shipping date projected at 2007-07-16 or later
Jul 09 12:41:35 <ewon> where are the phones shipped from? A friend of mine in LA is coming over to see me, could get it shipped to her... would that work out cheaper?
Jul 09 12:41:43 <andylockran> ben_goodger: ..no .. sorry.. how do I read it?
Jul 09 12:42:02 <ben_goodger> ..look at the top of this window?
Jul 09 12:42:49 <andylockran> ben_goodger: using irssi chat client on my server @ home.. can only see <>Buy now for $3000 from openmoko.com
Jul 09 12:43:08 <ben_goodger> Shipping date projected at 2007-07-16 or later
Jul 09 12:43:15 <Stephmw> andylockran: type /topic
Jul 09 12:43:19 <andylockran> just have done :p
Jul 09 12:43:24 * Stephmw grins
Jul 09 12:43:28 <andylockran> Stephmw: thanks..
Jul 09 12:44:19 <Stephmw> andylockran: np, irssi always seems to have hidden nuggets
Jul 09 12:44:34 <ewon> so is the phone shipped from the US or from Taiwan?
Jul 09 12:44:57 <SpeedEvil> US
Jul 09 12:45:52 <SpeedEvil> ewon: IIRC shipping in the US can be $14
Jul 09 12:45:59 <roh> ewon from california.
Jul 09 12:46:12 <roh> shipping inside us is much cheaper
Jul 09 12:46:15 <ewon> SpeedEvil: interesting... so if I get the phone shipped to someone in CA, and they bring it over to me, I avoid this whole problem>
Jul 09 12:46:24 <SpeedEvil> ewon: many countries will charge duty and taxes on devices they find
Jul 09 12:46:38 <ewon> SpeedEvil: if it's brought in on her person as a personal device, they won't charge for it
Jul 09 12:46:45 <ewon> she's visiting for a week to Ireland
Jul 09 12:46:46 <SpeedEvil> ewon: Yeah
Jul 09 12:46:52 <roh> SpeedEvil not for one phone
Jul 09 12:46:58 <ewon> sweet
Jul 09 12:47:03 <ewon> better get in touch with her so :)
Jul 09 12:47:15 <ewon> need to email them and get the delivery address changed so
Jul 09 12:54:05 <ewon> hmmm.. so I've submitted my credit card details - how long does it take to get the confirmation email?
Jul 09 12:54:25 <juco> what's with the self signed cert on https://direct.openmoko.com ?
Jul 09 12:54:35 <mmazur> ewon, nobody got one, so we don't know :)
Jul 09 12:54:39 <roh> ewon seconds if it works
Jul 09 12:54:47 <ewon> roh: shit - I got nothing
Jul 09 12:55:01 <roh> ewon antispam technology?
Jul 09 12:55:14 <ewon> roh: greylisting, but it should have come through by now if it was going to
Jul 09 12:55:29 <roh> eek. yeah.. there is a problem with that
Jul 09 12:55:29 <juco> hmm, perhaps they are sold out
Jul 09 12:55:42 <mmazur> ewon, confirmation email as in that your card transaction went fine?
Jul 09 12:55:48 <mmazur> ewon, then afaik nobody got one yet.
Jul 09 12:56:49 <juco> oh, I see
Jul 09 12:56:51 <juco> slashdot
Jul 09 12:59:25 <mdt> openmoko is compared with the iphone always, what do you think of the greenphone?
Jul 09 12:59:38 <SpeedEvil> Expensive.
Jul 09 12:59:42 <Stephmw> Expensive.
Jul 09 12:59:49 <Stephmw> Restricted :(
Jul 09 12:59:53 <XXLT> lame
Jul 09 12:59:56 <CM> fugly
Jul 09 13:00:06 <XXLT> :)
Jul 09 13:00:07 <Fatal> green
Jul 09 13:00:10 <mdt> :D
Jul 09 13:00:15 <arw> nice 
Jul 09 13:00:20 <arw> :=)
Jul 09 13:00:27 <StylusEater_Work> what carriers will openmoko run on in the US?
Jul 09 13:00:30 <mdt> anyone expirience with  qtopia?
Jul 09 13:00:30 <ben_goodger> it looks suspiciously like a fatter, shorter, unbendable Moto_razr
Jul 09 13:00:40 <hrw> StylusEater_Work: any GSM
Jul 09 13:00:41 <ben_goodger> StylusEater_Work: anything with a SIM
Jul 09 13:00:59 <StylusEater_Work> awesome
Jul 09 13:01:20 <XXLT> is it possible to do speed measurement with that agps sensor?
Jul 09 13:01:21 <cybaea> ROFL: Is 'moko' really slang for snot or sperm in Spanish? :-D
Jul 09 13:01:27 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jul 09 13:01:33 <ben_goodger> moco, actually
Jul 09 13:01:34 <arw> yes
Jul 09 13:01:37 <cybaea> haha
Jul 09 13:01:40 <SpeedEvil> XXLT: it's GPS
Jul 09 13:01:42 <cybaea> too funny
Jul 09 13:01:44 <SpeedEvil> XXLT: yes
Jul 09 13:02:04 <XXLT> fine, you already did it?
Jul 09 13:02:11 <SpeedEvil> Last couple of minutes for this batch, given /.
Jul 09 13:02:27 <SpeedEvil> XXLT: no - it gives NMEA output though, and I've done that with a GPS
Jul 09 13:02:33 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation_HOWTO/de]] [[Translation]] [[Wishlist:Wikipedia_Mirror]] [[IPhone]] [[Talk:IPhone_%28GTA01%29]]
Jul 09 13:02:46 * SpeedEvil wishes he had cash.
Jul 09 13:03:23 <ben_goodger> is there going to be a proper GPS application with route finding and such?
Jul 09 13:04:03 <ben_goodger> methinks one could write a cheap hack to constantly refresh a google maps URL with new coords, but that'd be expensive and shoddy
Jul 09 13:04:10 <SpeedEvil> ben_goodger: the problem is the maps.
Jul 09 13:04:20 <ben_goodger> indeed
Jul 09 13:04:27 <SpeedEvil> ben_goodger: license to store maps runs into the millions of dollars.
Jul 09 13:04:28 <CM> ben_goodger: I think cooperation with maemo mapper and open street map guys is the way to go :)
Jul 09 13:04:47 <ben_goodger> you can't use openstreetmap for a real GPS
Jul 09 13:04:51 * CM is just guessing wildly
Jul 09 13:04:52 <andylockran> yeah, there's an openstreetmap conference in manchester on the 14th 15th July I might go to]
Jul 09 13:04:53 <mmazur> Hmmm.
Jul 09 13:04:59 <SpeedEvil> ben_goodger: sure you can.
Jul 09 13:05:02 <mmazur> Does the hardware allow to fully turn of a chip?
Jul 09 13:05:06 <SpeedEvil> ben_goodger: it just sucks in some areas.
Jul 09 13:05:11 <SpeedEvil> mmazur which chip?
Jul 09 13:05:13 <ben_goodger> SpeedEvil: yes, it does
Jul 09 13:05:16 <mmazur> gps/bluetooth particulary
Jul 09 13:05:21 <CM> ben_goodger: Was some talk about a commercial gps-map program for the Neo on the dev mailinglist today and yesterday
Jul 09 13:05:22 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: sure
Jul 09 13:05:27 <cybaea> ben_goodger: you'd have to cache the maps.  It seems to be what http://www.tegmento.org/gpsylon/ does
Jul 09 13:05:37 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, as in zero power consumption?
Jul 09 13:05:47 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: essentially zero
Jul 09 13:05:48 <ben_goodger> openstreetmap sucks majorly
Jul 09 13:05:52 <SpeedEvil> Not actually xero.
Jul 09 13:06:05 <ben_goodger> it'll be good in two or three years, but it's totally unsuitable for a commercial-grade application
Jul 09 13:06:13 <SpeedEvil> Umm - no.
Jul 09 13:06:20 <SpeedEvil> decade at least IMO.
Jul 09 13:06:27 <ben_goodger> heh
Jul 09 13:06:51 <SpeedEvil> I write this from the perspective of someone who's mapped my local town roughly.
Jul 09 13:07:09 <ben_goodger> I'd like to do that, but I only have access to a tomtom
Jul 09 13:07:16 <SpeedEvil> 40K population - at least 400Km of driving/biking is involved, and around 20000 nodes or so
Jul 09 13:07:37 <mmazur> Well, was thinking if it'll be usable as a base phone, but if it'll last not more then a day...
Jul 09 13:07:50 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: last less?
Jul 09 13:08:07 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: with the processor off and just waiting for calls, it should last a week or so.
Jul 09 13:08:11 <SpeedEvil> Maybe more.
Jul 09 13:08:15 <ben_goodger> god, even the postcode map is off by thirty miles
Jul 09 13:10:07 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, but with the processor off I wouldn't even be able to make phone calls? :)
Jul 09 13:10:42 <ben_goodger> http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotopenstreetmapqm8.png -- I live half-way between St Austell and Liskeard
Jul 09 13:11:07 <Viko> Will it be possible to turn down the brightness of the screen to save power?
Jul 09 13:12:06 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: you get interrupts when the power button is pushed
Jul 09 13:12:16 <SpeedEvil> Viko: not meaningfully
Jul 09 13:12:33 <Viko> SpeedEvil, so, either off or on then?
Jul 09 13:12:41 <SpeedEvil> Viko: broadly - Screen uses 0.5W, CPU uses another 0.7W or so.
Jul 09 13:12:59 <SpeedEvil> You have to have the CPU running to have the screen on.
Jul 09 13:13:06 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, ok, but I'd like to type in a phone number and have it (a) display the number and (b) just work.
Jul 09 13:13:11 <SpeedEvil> So though you can dim the screen so it uses 0.1W, ...
Jul 09 13:13:24 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, I assume that's also done 100% in software, so I'd have to have cpu on.
Jul 09 13:13:45 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: there are also touchscreen interrupts, so it can be in suspend-RAM till you touch the screen
Jul 09 13:14:32 <Viko> SpeedEvil, how about speed modulation of the CPU.. I am thinking to play music while it is in the pocket or something. 1.2W to 0.7W seems ok. Throttling of a CPU -> 0.3W seems even better :)
Jul 09 13:14:36 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jul 09 13:14:40 <SpeedEvil> Well - sort of.
Jul 09 13:14:44 <SpeedEvil> It goes to 12Mhz.
Jul 09 13:14:51 <SpeedEvil> But that's not enough to play music.
Jul 09 13:15:14 <mmazur> Suspend to ram? Interesting.
Jul 09 13:15:17 <SpeedEvil> It _may_ be possible to swap between 266 and 12Mhz fast enough to play audio seamlessly.
Jul 09 13:15:37 <SpeedEvil> Basically, compute several seconds, then slow down and play it out
Jul 09 13:15:44 <mmazur> So it'd boot up in a fraction of a second and still use little power.
Jul 09 13:16:06 <Viko> But still. turning off the screen would still save 0.5W while playing music in the pocket...
Jul 09 13:16:06 <SpeedEvil> That's the idea.
Jul 09 13:16:13 <SpeedEvil> Viko: sure.
Jul 09 13:17:19 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management according to this page slow mode is 50mW and the battery is roughly 3500mWh. That's not a week, that's less then three days.
Jul 09 13:17:39 <SpeedEvil> off != slow mode
Jul 09 13:17:49 <SpeedEvil> And I wrote much of that page. :)
Jul 09 13:18:11 <SpeedEvil> CPU actually off, stopped, with just the RAM and GSM modem alive
Jul 09 13:18:23 <mmazur> Oh.
Jul 09 13:18:29 <SpeedEvil> with it setup to turn power on on touchscreen or power button interrupt
Jul 09 13:18:43 <mmazur> or gsm stimuli?
Jul 09 13:18:44 <SpeedEvil> And it then resumes from suspend-RAM
Jul 09 13:18:49 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jul 09 13:18:58 <mmazur> And the lcd is fully off also?
Jul 09 13:19:02 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jul 09 13:19:07 <mmazur> Hmmmm.
Jul 09 13:19:12 <SpeedEvil> Much of this is not actually coded, but the hardware permits.
Jul 09 13:19:20 <mmazur> Yes, I understand.
Jul 09 13:19:39 <mmazur> So there's a real chance that in a few months time it'll have a really long battery life along with all those toys, ay?
Jul 09 13:19:58 <SpeedEvil> Standby battery, perhaps.
Jul 09 13:20:12 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, yes, that's what I mean.
Jul 09 13:20:52 <MagicFab> The " Openmoko goes lives"  press release link at http://www.openmoko.com/press-index.html links to the html page itself, not to any press release 
Jul 09 13:21:22 <SpeedEvil> In 'slow mode' doing stuff in the background, it's probably not going to be more than a day battery life.
Jul 09 13:22:55 <mmazur> Hmmm.
Jul 09 13:22:57 <ewon> emailed sales@ to see if they'll allow a change in delivery address
Jul 09 13:23:18 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, considering that the whole phone is a one big touchscreen, won't it eat away at power when I just carry it around?
Jul 09 13:23:27 <andylockran> hmm.. shipping date is from 'ys'
Jul 09 13:23:29 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, you know, the cpu waking up all the time?
Jul 09 13:23:32 <andylockran> 'us'^
Jul 09 13:23:52 <ben_goodger> andylockran: add six to eight months for international shipping
Jul 09 13:24:08 <mmazur> Six to eight?
Jul 09 13:24:10 <mmazur> Are you kidding?
Jul 09 13:24:10 <andylockran> ben_goodger: please be jokingme...
Jul 09 13:24:29 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: could be set to only turn on by pressing a button. In a case, that may not be an issue.
Jul 09 13:24:30 <ben_goodger> well, judging on my experience with amazon.com as opposed to amazon.co.uk :)
Jul 09 13:24:30 * andylockran is soo gullible
Jul 09 13:24:38 <mmazur> And I believe you were thinking 'weeks'.
Jul 09 13:25:05 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, oh, so the 'wake up on what' thing is fully configurable?
Jul 09 13:25:18 <SpeedEvil> yes, the wake interrupts are settable.
Jul 09 13:25:48 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, so can have 'travel mode' with wake only on button, normal sleep mode with 'wake also on touchscreen' and full off mode with 'don't wake on gsm'.
Jul 09 13:25:54 <ben_goodger> my final question before lunch: are there going to be any nice iconsets? the screenshots on the website remind me of e17 
Jul 09 13:26:31 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: pretty much.
Jul 09 13:28:13 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, and even 'I'm weird mode' with 'don't wake on button or touchscreen and only on incoming gsm call'? :)
Jul 09 13:28:37 <SpeedEvil> I think so - I haven't studied the interrupt controller.
Jul 09 13:30:46 <mdt> how does x on the neo access the graphic? is it a linux framebuffer?
Jul 09 13:30:55 <SpeedEvil> Native driver.
Jul 09 13:31:16 <mdt> SpeedEvil, a native x11 driver?
Jul 09 13:31:19 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jul 09 13:31:29 <SpeedEvil> it's at the moment basically a dumb framebuffer
Jul 09 13:31:33 <SpeedEvil> that's all the hardware can do
Jul 09 13:31:54 <mdt> would it be possible to use directfb on the device?
Jul 09 13:32:07 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, nobodies written that yet
Jul 09 13:32:32 <SpeedEvil> But, the CPUs integrated display is well explained in the datasheet
Jul 09 13:32:46 <mdt> SpeedEvil, what do u think - would that be compicated?
Jul 09 13:33:01 <SpeedEvil> mdt: the display controller is not complicated
Jul 09 13:33:09 <SpeedEvil> It's really about the simplest it can be.
Jul 09 13:33:33 <mdt> backround is, i am about writing a phone software. very, very simply. no x, no gtk. it uses directfb. 
Jul 09 13:33:49 <SpeedEvil> Just open an xterm, and use curses.
Jul 09 13:34:02 <mdt> ?
Jul 09 13:34:03 <SpeedEvil> Poke pavelm for some prototype source.
Jul 09 13:34:19 <SpeedEvil> Text-mode GUI
Jul 09 13:34:30 <mdt> no it's no text ui. 
Jul 09 13:35:19 <mdt> what do yo mean with Poke pavelm?
Jul 09 13:35:21 <SpeedEvil> I don't really see the benefit over a simple X app.
Jul 09 13:35:31 <mdt> it's instead of x11
Jul 09 13:35:33 <SpeedEvil> Pavelm has some text-mode source
Jul 09 13:35:34 <anrp> less overhead, for one
Jul 09 13:35:45 <mdt> what /is/ pavelm?
Jul 09 13:35:52 <SpeedEvil> Pavel MAchek
Jul 09 13:35:53 <anrp> thats probably a who
Jul 09 13:36:09 <SpeedEvil> He's occasionally on here under the username pavelm
Jul 09 13:36:15 <SpeedEvil> Personally.
Jul 09 13:36:26 <SpeedEvil> I find the whole 'speed' thing bogus.
Jul 09 13:36:37 <SpeedEvil> I used to use a P100 laptop.
Jul 09 13:36:46 <SpeedEvil> With 640*480 screen.
Jul 09 13:36:51 <ben_goodger> I had a P75 desktop...
Jul 09 13:36:54 <SpeedEvil> It was quite fast enough to do everything.
Jul 09 13:36:56 <ben_goodger> cost £1200 in 1995
Jul 09 13:37:27 <SpeedEvil> And that was with X.
Jul 09 13:37:49 <SpeedEvil> You don't ahve to use GTK if you don't want to.
Jul 09 13:37:56 <SpeedEvil> You can just use a native X11 app.
Jul 09 13:37:59 <mdt> SpeedEvil, but no animations in any way as used today...
Jul 09 13:38:13 <mdt> SpeedEvil, i don't like that idea on a phone 
Jul 09 13:38:30 <Stephmw> wha?
Jul 09 13:38:49 <Stephmw> you don't like X11 on a phone, it's a tried and tested method
Jul 09 13:38:51 <Stephmw> ;)
Jul 09 13:39:07 <mdt> stefan_schmidt, maybe, but i try another aproach
Jul 09 13:41:11 <roh> mdt atm its a standard framebuffer driver with kdrive on it.
Jul 09 13:41:40 <roh> mdt when you want to try directfb-gtk on it, have fun... and please make some benchmarks ;)
Jul 09 13:41:52 <mdt> stefan_schmidt, i am playing around with the greenphone. the neo was not avaiable when i started. started with qtopia, but qtopia sucks. so i looked for other ways. directfb is very nice. 
Jul 09 13:42:10 <mdt> no i dont use gtk. i implemented a own graphic library
Jul 09 13:42:18 <mmazur> ouch
Jul 09 13:42:50 <roh> mdt the graphics accel in gta02 also will get fully opensource drivers which means you would have to code a directfb userspace driver for the accel, additional to the fbdev which we will provide
Jul 09 13:43:04 <Stephmw> mdt: was it fun?
Jul 09 13:43:14 * MagicFab resend, not sure this went through a few minutes ago
Jul 09 13:43:15 <roh> mdt you mean a toolkit? directfb is a graphic lib
Jul 09 13:43:15 <MagicFab> The " Openmoko goes lives"  press release link at http://www.openmoko.com/press-index.html links to the html page itself, not to any press release 
Jul 09 13:43:31 <Fatal> btw, where are they shipped from?
Jul 09 13:43:33 <mdt> stefan_schmidt, yes. i normaly don't like gui programming. this changed it
Jul 09 13:43:53 <Stephmw> mdt: good :) no sense reinventing the wheel unless you're having fun
Jul 09 13:43:53 <roh> MagicFab thats no error.
Jul 09 13:43:55 <mdt> roh, if you like call it toolkit, yes. but very, very basic
Jul 09 13:44:17 <roh> mdt why did you not take lite and extend that?
Jul 09 13:44:29 <mdt> stefan_schmidt, i don't think one need a full blown tk on a phone
Jul 09 13:44:47 <mdt> roh, yes, i did that i.e. for text entry
Jul 09 13:44:52 <MagicFab> roh, I' d love to hear how not getting an actual press release is not an error ;)
Jul 09 13:46:06 <mdt> is there information on software architecture of open moko?
Jul 09 13:46:21 <roh> MagicFab its just a link to make the design happy
Jul 09 13:46:36 <ben_goodger> eek
Jul 09 13:46:49 <ben_goodger> where's debhelper when you need him?
Jul 09 13:46:57 <bmidgley> blindcoder: we're back
Jul 09 13:47:13 <roh> mdt there is a scetchy graphic here http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-04-software.html and a lot of info in the wiki
Jul 09 13:47:13 <blindcoder> whoah, what a netsplit
Jul 09 13:47:22 <roh> mdt what exactly do you want to know?
Jul 09 13:49:28 <blindcoder> anyway, I've been playing with the qemu image and stuff, currently working on setting up a development environment
Jul 09 13:49:49 <blindcoder> question: is it possible for someone only needing phone and sms capabilities to use the neo1973 as a day-to-day phone?
Jul 09 13:49:50 <aloril> blindcoder: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 13:49:51 <mdt> as you may imagine i have the same problem when dropping qtopia. qtopia is a non-unix aproach. no deamons, everything in a big blob. i tried another aproach with some small daemons with a special function. now you have the problem of ipc. i played around with d-bus. how is openmoko implemented regarding this?
Jul 09 13:50:08 <blindcoder> gee it didn't really, unfortunately
Jul 09 13:50:16 <switch3r> Hi there :)
Jul 09 13:50:18 <anrp> afaik sms isn't implemented yet
Jul 09 13:50:22 <anrp> so.. not yet
Jul 09 13:51:13 <blindcoder> anrp: yeah, I've read on the gsmd-devel list that it is being worked on, was hoping for someone from that list being here and could tell me if it'll be ready within - say - two weeks or so?
Jul 09 13:51:23 <CM> blindcoder: It's barely possible to even call with it in the current state
Jul 09 13:51:25 <blindcoder> (that's the time I give my current phone until it'll probably die)
Jul 09 13:51:56 <blindcoder> CM: barely is enough for me, that means it works :-)
Jul 09 13:52:07 <blindcoder> CM: I'm really not expecting much at the moment
Jul 09 13:52:13 <CM> It's enough for me too :)
Jul 09 13:52:36 <blindcoder> CM: but if I buy another phone now I fear I won't buy a neo anytime within two years
Jul 09 13:52:54 <blindcoder> and since there is progress going on I'm sure it'll get better :)
Jul 09 13:53:15 * CM got a SE W610 last week from work
Jul 09 13:53:25 <switch3r> I'm in the same situation as you, blindcoder :)
Jul 09 13:53:44 <switch3r> But I was asking myself on the security capabilities of the phone
Jul 09 13:53:58 <switch3r> sounds like the atheros chipset is ready for wep and wpa, but what about the battery ?
Jul 09 13:53:58 <aloril> switch3r: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 13:54:03 <mdt> roh, another question is how about security? are there sandboxes for apps? is everythin run as root (as with qtopia)
Jul 09 13:54:34 <CM> ben_goodger: This might become available for OpenMoko, if the mailinglist is anything to go by: http://www.navigon.com/site/us/en
Jul 09 13:54:37 <SpeedEvil> mdt: there is no reason you couldn't run arbitrary apps in chroot.
Jul 09 13:54:40 <switch3r> why everything should run as root ?
Jul 09 13:54:52 <SpeedEvil> mdt: as unprivelidged users, ...
Jul 09 13:54:58 <CM> mdt: Currently everything is root
Jul 09 13:55:02 <mdt> switch3r, qtopia does so... :(
Jul 09 13:55:09 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: you're really to be found _anywhere_ on this network, aren't you? :)
Jul 09 13:55:14 <switch3r> for conveniance reason or design choice ?
Jul 09 13:55:34 <SpeedEvil> blindcoder: No :) Just select places. I'm only in 7 channels ATM.
Jul 09 13:55:41 <mdt> switch3r, qtopia starts to use lids but hasn't right now
Jul 09 13:55:53 <ben_goodger> CM: thanks
Jul 09 13:56:06 <SpeedEvil> I'd hope that security gets better. 
Jul 09 13:56:16 <CM> Commercial app, but it seems nice
Jul 09 13:56:30 <SpeedEvil> I'd like it in such a state that I can give my employee a phone, and they can't crack it.
Jul 09 13:56:49 <switch3r> there's nothing on the FAQ about security, I just discovered the phone today and I searching for informations on that aspect of the project....
Jul 09 13:57:02 <SpeedEvil> Basically none at the moment.
Jul 09 13:57:09 <ben_goodger> heh, let's port sabayon to openmoko..
Jul 09 13:57:30 <switch3r> hu :(
Jul 09 13:57:32 <mmazur> I'd go with kde.
Jul 09 13:57:37 <SpeedEvil> Security, SMS, ... all are still needing implemented.
Jul 09 13:58:10 <switch3r> That not a really good news, regarding the fact that security is better when implemented from the root, but I'll take a look to the framework
Jul 09 13:58:18 <switch3r> perhaps I can help ;)
Jul 09 13:58:41 <SpeedEvil> Perhaps.
Jul 09 13:59:14 <ben_goodger> is there going to be theming support?
Jul 09 13:59:19 <ben_goodger> I can't stand the current look
Jul 09 13:59:33 <ben_goodger> perhaps some tango icons with clearlooks...
Jul 09 13:59:40 <CM> ben_goodger: Some, but it's limited...
Jul 09 13:59:42 <drath_> heh, guess in it's current state the software has worse problems than its look ;)
Jul 09 13:59:48 <Kensan> switch3r, what's your particular interest/focus?
Jul 09 13:59:50 <ben_goodger> indeed
Jul 09 14:00:12 <CM> ben_goodger: mickeyl has complained a lot about how gtk handles themes
Jul 09 14:00:30 <CM> As have abock and other gnome people lately.
Jul 09 14:00:38 <switch3r> Kensan -> mostly crypto
Jul 09 14:00:56 * CM notices that the Wiki is not responding any more
Jul 09 14:01:08 <blindcoder> heh, not just the wiki it seems
Jul 09 14:01:13 <Stephmw> CM: the US must be waking up
Jul 09 14:01:18 <blindcoder> the mailinglist currently refuses to send me any mails since around noon
Jul 09 14:01:20 <CM> Exactly 
Jul 09 14:01:29 <Kensan> switch3r: can you elaborate a bit? My interests lie in the same field.
Jul 09 14:01:40 <zecke> I can complain about Gtk Themes and Gtk's drawing in general :)
Jul 09 14:01:45 <blindcoder> cryptofon on the neo! :-)
Jul 09 14:02:07 <Elrond> I guess, it's already know, that bugzilla is bug'd?
Jul 09 14:02:25 <Fatal> wish my collegue could decide soon so I can place my order, heh
Jul 09 14:03:12 <switch3r> kensan, well the problem with embedded security is usually relaying in power capabilities... if you use WPA with your PDA, for example, you'll empty your batterie in less than one hour
Jul 09 14:03:12 <ewanm89_laptop> Fatal: Give him a time limit.
Jul 09 14:03:25 <switch3r> that's why security is so low in the embedded world
Jul 09 14:03:42 <switch3r> and with an open project like openmoko, i've hoped that perhaps it will improve that
Jul 09 14:03:58 <switch3r> modifying algorithms and their implementations, for examples
Jul 09 14:04:13 <switch3r> but it sounds like the project it still a bit young for that ;)
Jul 09 14:04:58 <switch3r> what could be interesting to me is a cyphered partition to store personnal docs and a crypto capability for GSM and WiFi
Jul 09 14:05:18 <blindcoder> switch3r: why not store the stuff on a dm-crypted sd card?
Jul 09 14:05:24 <blindcoder> switch3r: that sounds entirely doable to me
Jul 09 14:05:32 <Kensan> switch3r: so your focus is mainly on Wifi?
Jul 09 14:05:33 <CM> zecke: Hehe.. I can imagine that ;)
Jul 09 14:05:54 * blindcoder is actually looking forward to coding some applications :-)
Jul 09 14:06:11 <blindcoder> push comes to shove I can still use the neo as a buffed-up pda :-)
Jul 09 14:06:22 <MagicFab> http://www.fabianrodriguez.com/blog/archives/2007/07/09/openmoko-phone-now-shipping-new-web-site-launched/
Jul 09 14:06:29 <switch3r> yeah, I've figured it should be possible when I saw that openmoko is based on a 2.6 kernel, but I'm using dm-crypt on my laptop and, trust me, it cost a lot of power
Jul 09 14:06:30 <MagicFab> should shortly show up on Ubuntu Planet
Jul 09 14:06:30 <Kensan> blindcoder: afaik with jffs2 it's not straightforward as it will have negative effects on wear-leveling etc.
Jul 09 14:06:47 <mmazur> switch3r, you're dmcrypting everything?
Jul 09 14:06:50 <mmazur> switch3r, or just /home?
Jul 09 14:07:00 <switch3r> nono, just /home
Jul 09 14:07:03 <blindcoder> switch3r: same on my laptop, all of /
Jul 09 14:07:08 <blindcoder> switch3r: well, all but /boot
Jul 09 14:07:14 <mmazur> switch3r, how much power does it use?
Jul 09 14:07:28 <blindcoder> Kensan: hmm, but doesn't dmcrypt just create a new block device?
Jul 09 14:08:08 <Kensan> blindcoder: I read some thread about it on lkml. It's not that straightforward.
Jul 09 14:08:13 <switch3r> I can't answer very precisely, cost my laptop is old and I'm always plugged, but it makes a difference on the temperature (~+ 10°F )
Jul 09 14:08:13 <blindcoder> Kensan: I see
Jul 09 14:08:16 <Fatal> ewanm89_laptop: mm :) should do that
Jul 09 14:08:28 <blindcoder> Kensan: well, just put an ext2 on the sd card
Jul 09 14:09:00 <Kensan> blindcoder: that all works, but I think you really want wear-leveling...
Jul 09 14:09:25 <blindcoder> Kensan: I never heard the term wear-leveling before...
Jul 09 14:09:35 <switch3r> me too..... 
Jul 09 14:10:36 <switch3r> Wear levelling (also written wear leveling) is a technique[1] for prolonging the service life of some kinds of erasable computer storage media, such as flash memory
Jul 09 14:10:40 <switch3r> thks wikipedia ;)
Jul 09 14:11:03 <blindcoder> okay, I think I know what it means and understand why I want it :-)
Jul 09 14:11:06 <Kensan> blindcoder, switch3r: here's that thread from lkml: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/3/6/137
Jul 09 14:11:30 <blindcoder> since the memory type in sd cards only has a limited number of 'write' cycles
Jul 09 14:11:35 <switch3r> arranging the data to preserve the hardware
Jul 09 14:11:47 <drath> isn't SD supposed to do that already?
Jul 09 14:12:15 <SpeedEvil> It's more a 'write whole block thing' when one byte has changed.
Jul 09 14:12:23 <SpeedEvil> That impacts a little negatively.
Jul 09 14:12:26 <SpeedEvil> In practice.
Jul 09 14:12:38 <blindcoder> yeah
Jul 09 14:12:49 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't matter, as a hundred thousand writes over a million blocks takes a _long_ time.
Jul 09 14:13:20 <blindcoder> ah well, just do what I do: don't save sensitive information on a mobile phone
Jul 09 14:13:24 <SpeedEvil> over per blobk
Jul 09 14:13:27 <blindcoder> I've lost enough phones to know why :-)
Jul 09 14:13:37 <SpeedEvil> Done right, it could be OK.
Jul 09 14:13:44 <switch3r> Oops  10:13am, I have to go to work :p see you guys, and thanks for the informations ;)
Jul 09 14:14:04 <blindcoder> heh, I need to leave work :-)
Jul 09 14:14:09 <SpeedEvil> DM-crypt, and secured boot-flash
Jul 09 14:14:18 <SpeedEvil> so that it can't be trojaned.
Jul 09 14:14:27 <Kensan> switch3r, blindman: here you might find some more info: http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/jffs2/compression.php
Jul 09 14:14:32 <blindcoder> then sleep over and if I still want the neo tomorrow morning, I'll order :-)
Jul 09 14:14:44 <blindcoder> SpeedEvil: which leaves the problem of passphrase entering :-)
Jul 09 14:14:52 <blindcoder> Kensan: thanks, I'll have a look
Jul 09 14:14:53 <SpeedEvil> blindcoder: True.
Jul 09 14:14:56 <blindcoder> until then, see you later
Jul 09 14:14:59 <SpeedEvil> wave
Jul 09 14:16:08 <mmazur> Having the contacts encrypted sounds like a good idea.
Jul 09 14:16:42 <SpeedEvil> There are a couple of options.
Jul 09 14:16:48 <mmazur> yup
Jul 09 14:17:01 <SpeedEvil> well - hundreds to be probably more accurate :)
Jul 09 14:19:29 <sixfeet> hää?
Jul 09 14:20:13 <goodfoot> Is it possible to connect a keyboard to neo?
Jul 09 14:20:33 <CM> goodfoot: Bluetooth would probably be the easiest
Jul 09 14:20:33 <zecke> a bluetooth one?
Jul 09 14:20:47 <goodfoot> yes.
Jul 09 14:21:18 <oelewapperke> can you insert it into the usb port? 
Jul 09 14:21:24 <oelewapperke> ie is the port both host and device ?
Jul 09 14:21:46 <CM> oelewapperke: It's both, but it's unpowered
Jul 09 14:21:59 <mjr> yeah, you'd need external power
Jul 09 14:22:02 <mjr> bt should be easy
Jul 09 14:22:04 <oelewapperke> so it won't run a keyboard without a powered hub ?
Jul 09 14:22:46 <SpeedEvil> And the wiki's died.
Jul 09 14:23:12 <mjr> it won't
Jul 09 14:23:15 <mjr> or a power injector
Jul 09 14:23:23 <SpeedEvil> Or not quite
Jul 09 14:24:49 <jeddy3> would it be possible with some kind of simple usb cable/battery-dongle to powerize the usb? =)
Jul 09 14:24:54 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jul 09 14:24:59 <SpeedEvil> It's a cable and a source of 5V
Jul 09 14:29:38 * SpeedEvil wishes people wouldn't believe hype.
Jul 09 14:30:16 <zecke> hehe
Jul 09 14:30:28 <zecke> yeah, users are here but where are devs :}
Jul 09 14:31:06 <cheesy> have to try something useless :)
Jul 09 14:31:06 <SpeedEvil> Just deleted a software radio entry on the wiki - smaller faster, lower power, supports all standards.
Jul 09 14:31:08 <cheesy> counter
Jul 09 14:31:08 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, 2 days 21:28:46 (9.895±3.0 days) (1723;246)
Jul 09 14:31:09 <weez> http://www.amazon.com/Cyberpower-CP-H420MP-USB-Hub-Battery-Powered/dp/B0002UQALQ
Jul 09 14:31:10 <SpeedEvil> Umm - no.
Jul 09 14:31:16 <hrw> zecke: on openmoko-devel? rather not
Jul 09 14:31:24 <weez> there is a link to throw out when ppl ask about a keyboard
Jul 09 14:32:25 <SpeedEvil> Sigh - deleted it, now can't add back as the wiki has DiEd!
Jul 09 14:32:49 <SpeedEvil> It really needed to be made /. proof
Jul 09 14:33:07 <weez> jeddy3: did you see the link i posted above?
Jul 09 14:33:29 <jeddy3> weez, yes, sweet
Jul 09 14:35:44 <ScaredyCat> wiki seems alive here SpeedEvil, just v v sloowoowowowowowowo
Jul 09 14:36:27 <goodfoot> So my idea is to run emacs on neo with a bluetooth keyboard.
Jul 09 14:37:32 <mmazur> I'd go with qemu and windows :)
Jul 09 14:38:32 <goodfoot> Its got to be possible, Someone apparently got supertux to run.
Jul 09 14:38:34 <goodfoot> on it.
Jul 09 14:39:38 <mmazur> Well, playing setlers or something sounds plausible.
Jul 09 14:39:45 <mmazur> The touchscreen 'n stuff.
Jul 09 14:39:57 <mmazur> Or mortal kombat with the accelometeres.
Jul 09 14:40:09 <SpeedEvil> No accels till Oct
Jul 09 14:40:29 <mmazur> I know.
Jul 09 14:40:45 <SpeedEvil> Well - apart from selected units.
Jul 09 14:40:59 <weez> SpeedEvil: I didn't though, so good to know
Jul 09 14:55:17 <Sup3rkiddo> lol..openmoko.com is down?
Jul 09 14:55:30 <Sup3rkiddo> no it aint..never mind
Jul 09 14:55:31 <roh> Sup3rkiddo i'm working on it
Jul 09 14:55:47 <Sup3rkiddo> roh, oh ok..
Jul 09 14:56:32 <Stephmw> roh: how's the load?
Jul 09 14:59:30 <roh> Stephmw i just switched from apache to lighttpd on port 80
Jul 09 15:00:49 <ScaredyCat> :o
Jul 09 15:04:01 <maxauthority> haha, this ad is so great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCQ7dmGuAU8 - far better than any iphone ad
Jul 09 15:04:02 <aloril> maxauthority: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 15:05:07 <tuukkah> "question" =)
Jul 09 15:05:27 <don-o> counter
Jul 09 15:05:28 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, 2 days 20:54:27 (9.871±3.0 days) (1724;246)
Jul 09 15:08:10 <andylockran> I'm having problems compiling the mokoMakeFile.. it hangs at stamps/openembedded with a http peer timeout.. anyone else havintg these issues?
Jul 09 15:10:52 <Stephmw> roh: some assets aren't loading on .com (but no 404s that I can see)
Jul 09 15:12:11 <Basheri> seems fine for me :O
Jul 09 15:12:58 <Kensan> andylockran: can you provide some debug output?
Jul 09 15:13:13 <xkr47> jos lighttpd is nice
Jul 09 15:13:24 <xkr47> s/jos //
Jul 09 15:13:26 <apt> xkr47 meant: lighttpd is nice
Jul 09 15:13:46 <tuukkah> now apt is apt
Jul 09 15:14:08 <tuukkah> s/i/wa/
Jul 09 15:14:08 <apt> tuukkah meant: now apt was apt
Jul 09 15:14:19 <andylockran> [ -d stamps ] || mkdir stamps
Jul 09 15:14:20 <andylockran> touch stamps/openembedded
Jul 09 15:14:20 <andylockran> [ -e stamps/openmoko ] || \ ( svn co -r HEAD http://svn.openmoko.org/ openmoko )
Jul 09 15:14:23 <andylockran> svn: Caught signal
Jul 09 15:14:25 <andylockran> make: *** [setup-openmoko] Error 1
Jul 09 15:14:28 <tuukkah> s/\//#/
Jul 09 15:15:28 <galexande> yay, i got to a | /media/3/moko/build/tmp/cross/bin/arm-linux-as: unrecognized option `-Qy'
Jul 09 15:15:30 <andylockran> it keeps going up and down for me
Jul 09 15:15:36 <galexande> i'd give anything for an http timeout by comparison :)
Jul 09 15:15:54 <andylockran> working now
Jul 09 15:16:11 <roh> Stephmw ram is short atm.. 
Jul 09 15:16:43 <andylockran> roh: there are known issues with the svn repo now then?
Jul 09 15:17:35 <roh> andylockran known issues? in what form?
Jul 09 15:17:51 <Kensan> andylockran: is svn working for other repositories? Maybe it's being blocked.
Jul 09 15:18:13 <andylockran> svn: REPORT request failed on '/!svn/vcc/default'
Jul 09 15:18:13 <andylockran> svn: REPORT of '/!svn/vcc/default': 200 OK (http://svn.openmoko.org)
Jul 09 15:18:13 <andylockran> make: *** [setup-openmoko] Error 1
Jul 09 15:18:17 <andylockran> that's my latest error
Jul 09 15:18:30 <andylockran> everytime I rerun make setup I get different error outputs..
Jul 09 15:18:52 <galexande> oh i'm lucky i'm way past make setup :)
Jul 09 15:19:14 <juri_> i'm running low on cash; if i buy the base, i can at a later date (later this week) buy the rest of the addons for the "advanced" setup, right?
Jul 09 15:19:21 <ScaredyCat> that's not just make setup galexande
Jul 09 15:19:48 <galexande> juri, that's not offered on the store yet.  if it's going to be that close, i'd wait because there is going to be at least a week's delay shipping them as well
Jul 09 15:19:51 <ScaredyCat> you get the same for a make openmoko-devel-image
Jul 09 15:20:10 <galexande> well, *i* get an arm-linux-as -Qy error for openmoko-devel-image :)
Jul 09 15:20:27 <ScaredyCat> that's because you're special.
Jul 09 15:20:39 <galexande> this is the longest command i've ever seen a makefile generate
Jul 09 15:20:56 <andylockran> it's a huge make isn't it?
Jul 09 15:21:06 <juri_> galex: how long until these things are expected to sell out tho?
Jul 09 15:21:14 <ScaredyCat> monster, i believe, is the correct term :)
Jul 09 15:21:18 <SpeedEvil> juri_: tomorrow or today
Jul 09 15:21:26 <SpeedEvil> juri_: however, a new batch will be along soon
Jul 09 15:21:32 <SpeedEvil> a week or two
Jul 09 15:21:43 <juri_> so, i'll buy my base now, and an advanced later. :)
Jul 09 15:21:49 <galexande> it's like a 35 line command, but it is prefixed with an environment variable setting which stores the entire command within an env var, or something similar
Jul 09 15:22:03 <SpeedEvil> It'll likely be a week or so till the first delivery IMO
Jul 09 15:22:36 <juri_> i'm patient. just worried about supply. :)
Jul 09 15:23:38 <SpeedEvil> They will carry on making htem
Jul 09 15:23:49 <SpeedEvil> and ramp up volume if sales carry on increasing.
Jul 09 15:27:17 <leonel> hello !
Jul 09 15:27:34 <dietricha> anyone else getting a blank page when trying to submit the form to buy a neo?
Jul 09 15:27:36 <dietricha> known issue?
Jul 09 15:27:39 <leonel> the openmoko has  wifi ? or don't have ?
Jul 09 15:27:50 <andylockran> leonel: nto til october...
Jul 09 15:28:12 <leonel> andylockran: in october another version ?  or in the same ?
Jul 09 15:29:45 <juri_> die: yepyep.
Jul 09 15:31:07 <Sufflope> I'm also getting this blank page
Jul 09 15:31:29 <Sufflope> it's quite frustrating after more than 6 months spent waiting
Jul 09 15:32:48 <andylockran> leonel: the end user version is coming in october... the current version is so that developers get a chance to get to know the UI and start developing the apps that the end users will use
Jul 09 15:33:46 <leonel> GREAT !
Jul 09 15:33:56 <roh> dietricha i'm working on getting it back up again
Jul 09 15:34:16 <SpeedEvil> roh: I assume the wiki going down is to be expected?
Jul 09 15:34:19 <galexande> dietrich, for your "state", make sure it is two uppercase letters
Jul 09 15:34:52 <roh> SpeedEvil load issues.. same physical host
Jul 09 15:35:19 <SpeedEvil> Sigh. T'd have been nice to have a static copy of the wiki somewhere with lots of bandwidth.
Jul 09 15:35:45 <galexande> i'm sure whoever got you slashdotted apologizes
Jul 09 15:35:48 <ynezz> ./ phase 2
Jul 09 15:36:44 <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying that - I'm saying that it should have been /. resistant. Oh well.
Jul 09 15:37:20 <SpeedEvil> A completely static copy - all the edit/special links are broken
Jul 09 15:37:35 <galexande> speed, i agree that every website should be able to withstand slashdot, but sometimes it just doesn't matter
Jul 09 15:37:48 <galexande> they're not intending to make their big money off of this release
Jul 09 15:37:55 <SpeedEvil> IMO - in this case, it matters somewhat to get the word out.
Jul 09 15:38:14 <SpeedEvil> A website that falls over doesn't help much.
Jul 09 15:38:20 <andylockran> no, it may have been a bit premature to have such wide publicity at such an early stage...
Jul 09 15:38:21 <galexande> *shrug* i think the people who feel affection for this idea know it and will not be deterred
Jul 09 15:38:50 <SpeedEvil> Indeed, it's not only them that we care about - but also the ones that may buy in 'October'.
Jul 09 15:39:19 <galexande> yeah but hype won't improve the product, i'm looking at this just as an open source exercise
Jul 09 15:39:35 <SpeedEvil> Hype will improve the product, if it gets more devs.
Jul 09 15:39:48 <galexande> heh
Jul 09 15:41:23 <orospakr> I wonder if anyone's tried Gnuboy on the Neo yet. :)
Jul 09 15:41:35 <orospakr> I guess it would need on screen buttons.
Jul 09 15:42:20 <Stephmw> orospakr: can you imagine your 8yr old mashing the on-screen buttons to get Mario to jump?
Jul 09 15:42:26 * Stephmw shudders
Jul 09 15:42:40 <StylusEater_Work> are any developers open to a podcast interview?
Jul 09 15:42:40 <galexande> yeah, no buttons and no multitouch is going to be a real hindrance for games
Jul 09 15:42:47 <orospakr> Stephmw: heh.
Jul 09 15:42:58 <orospakr> galexande: yeah, multitouch is an issue for games that require button combos.
Jul 09 15:43:01 <StylusEater_Work> wcsb.org
Jul 09 15:43:09 <orospakr> although
Jul 09 15:43:10 <StylusEater_Work> it's the college radio I'm part of
Jul 09 15:43:11 <orospakr> I wonder.
Jul 09 15:43:21 <Viko> Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe better work...
Jul 09 15:43:33 <orospakr> the style of touchscreen in the neo just averages out two points of pressure, and the "click" happens somewhere between the two points.
Jul 09 15:44:07 <orospakr> I wonder if it would be possible to design an on screen game pad that took advantage of that and "fakes" multitouch enough for button combos to work.
Jul 09 15:44:15 <galexande> hahahahah oro i was thinking exactly that
Jul 09 15:44:19 <orospakr> :D
Jul 09 15:44:38 <galexande> you could have the d-pad in a little circle that you hold your stylus in when you are moving your character about
Jul 09 15:44:47 <galexande> and when you need to fire, you touch outside the d-pad, enough to drag the center point outside of the circle
Jul 09 15:44:54 <orospakr> oh shit.
Jul 09 15:44:57 <orospakr> that's genius!
Jul 09 15:45:12 <galexande> so you just stop moving right at the moment you fire, but otherwise it is fine
Jul 09 15:45:24 <galexande> but i still don't know what to do about strafing
Jul 09 15:45:29 <galexande> if i can't circle-strafe, it's not doom
Jul 09 15:45:50 <orospakr> galexande: I was thinking more along the lines of doing what old style (NES and Genesis) gamepads could do.
Jul 09 15:46:05 <orospakr> if you place your A and B buttons far apart enough vertically, that would work too.
Jul 09 15:46:12 <galexande> heh yeah
Jul 09 15:46:22 <galexande> i'm thinking doom and you're thinking ...streetfighter?
Jul 09 15:46:50 <orospakr> yeah, as soon as I get my Neo I might try porting Gnuboy and making a nice on-screen pad for it.
Jul 09 15:47:07 <Stephmw> galexande: see if you can work those (forthcoming) accelerometers into the controls :)
Jul 09 15:47:18 * Stephmw strafes left.
Jul 09 15:47:19 <orospakr> Stephmw: oh wow, I forgot about those. :)
Jul 09 15:47:26 <galexande> stephen, yeah that would just do it
Jul 09 15:47:42 <galexande> you could use any number of crazy gestures for fire and strafe
Jul 09 15:47:55 <galexande> well, that sucks, why'd i buy the one without the accelerometers :)
Jul 09 15:47:56 <orospakr> galexande: I wouldn't use the stylus for the directional pad, though. I would just make it big enough for a finger.
Jul 09 15:48:07 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: would the accelerometers be sensitive enough to detect a sharp 1cm pulse in a direction?
Jul 09 15:48:17 * Stephmw thinks of firing action
Jul 09 15:48:19 <galexande> oro, yeah for sure, ever since i heard the stylus doesn't fit in the phone, i have tried to avoid it as a distraction
Jul 09 15:48:26 <galexande> anything good will have to be doable with, at worst, a fingernail
Jul 09 15:48:35 <orospakr> out of curiosity, does anyone know if OpenMoko will eventually include a MIDP JVM for compatibility with all the boring java games out there?
Jul 09 15:48:40 <galexande> stephen, probably, accelerometers are great
Jul 09 15:48:46 <Stephmw> orospakr: yes, guaranteed
Jul 09 15:48:59 <Stephmw> orospakr: ... there's already been interest
Jul 09 15:49:02 <orospakr> Stephmw: yeah, it seems pretty much a must these days.
Jul 09 15:49:13 <orospakr> even though I wouldn't touch it personally.
Jul 09 15:49:26 <Stephmw> orospakr: shame, the games are good :)
Jul 09 15:49:33 <rgl> what is AGPS?  is that a GPS receiver brand?
Jul 09 15:49:34 <galexande> does openmoko have something like ipkg?
Jul 09 15:49:40 <orospakr> galexande: yes.
Jul 09 15:49:42 <galexande> rgl, it's just gps with a shortcut to make it faster
Jul 09 15:49:45 <orospakr> ipkg is there, in fact.
Jul 09 15:49:49 <galexande> yay
Jul 09 15:49:49 <orospakr> galexande: shortcut?
Jul 09 15:49:59 <orospakr> galexande: look up OpenEmbedded.
Jul 09 15:50:14 <anrp> gps needs precise satellite location information, which is transmitted through gps on a 30 second cycle
Jul 09 15:50:22 <anrp> which causes most standalone receivers to have >30sec cold start
Jul 09 15:50:23 <mrfeeti2> is there any opensource voice recognition software?
Jul 09 15:50:30 <wonderblood> rgl: agps = Assisted Global Positioning System
Jul 09 15:50:30 <anrp> agps is jus downloading that info from anothe rsource (faster)
Jul 09 15:50:37 <SpeedEvil> It's not quite that simple.
Jul 09 15:50:38 <galexande> there's two bits of data and one of them is only every 12.5 minutes
Jul 09 15:50:44 <rgl> ah.  thx guys :D
Jul 09 15:50:48 <galexande> but if you leave gps on when it's in the cradle, you can download that from the satellites for free
Jul 09 15:50:54 <orospakr> anrp: I suppose the chip is capable of doing the cold start method, as well?
Jul 09 15:50:58 <anrp> of course
Jul 09 15:50:59 <galexande> orospakr, is openembedded the child of familiar?
Jul 09 15:51:04 <galexande> or intimate?
Jul 09 15:51:13 <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
Jul 09 15:51:25 <SpeedEvil> I wrote this up neatly on the wiki.
Jul 09 15:51:34 <orospakr> galexande: I'm not sure of all the details.
Jul 09 15:51:36 <galexande> speed, i am just repeating what you wrote on the wiki :)
Jul 09 15:51:37 <SpeedEvil> The GPS chip says it can get a position in under 1s
Jul 09 15:51:39 <SpeedEvil> at 5m
Jul 09 15:51:46 <anrp> with assistance or warm start
Jul 09 15:51:50 <anrp> it can't from cold
Jul 09 15:52:07 <SpeedEvil> No
Jul 09 15:52:11 <anrp> if it has precise timing available it can do fast cold start
Jul 09 15:52:16 <anrp> does the gsm chipset provide it?
Jul 09 15:52:20 <orospakr> hm, is leaving the GPS on during phone standby considered reasonable? or is it only powered up on demand?
Jul 09 15:52:28 <SpeedEvil> anrp: seperate chip
Jul 09 15:52:29 <galexande> anrp, you would presumably have to use gprs to download the assistance from somewhere else
Jul 09 15:52:32 <galexande> so you are best waiting to get it from the gps
Jul 09 15:52:39 <SpeedEvil> orospakr: there are two settings for the GPS.
Jul 09 15:52:40 <galexande> unless you have unlimited data :)
Jul 09 15:52:43 <anrp> its a very small amount of info
Jul 09 15:52:44 <SpeedEvil> orospakr: well - three.
Jul 09 15:52:46 <anrp> gprs would likely be faster
Jul 09 15:52:55 <SpeedEvil> Well - four
Jul 09 15:52:58 <SpeedEvil> Off
Jul 09 15:52:59 <galexande> the phone needs to have high-level settings like that "i have unlimited data on: bluetooth, wifi, and/or gprs"
Jul 09 15:53:20 <SpeedEvil> Low frequency clock only active. This is low power and has reasonable accuracy.
Jul 09 15:53:26 <anrp> ephermis is only 50bps * 30s = 1500 bits
Jul 09 15:53:37 <orospakr> galexande: ooh, global settings honoured by multiple features.
Jul 09 15:53:41 <orospakr> that would be nice.
Jul 09 15:53:43 <SpeedEvil> High frequency clock active - this is relatively high power - this is the best clock it has.
Jul 09 15:53:47 <SpeedEvil> And active
Jul 09 15:54:01 <anrp> so 2 of 4 are warm start, and 1 is cold
Jul 09 15:54:03 <anrp> 1 is active
Jul 09 15:54:13 <galexande> yeoah so in your map application, you can just tell it "i want to download (always), (only when i have unlimited bandwidth), (ask me)
Jul 09 15:54:31 <galexande> otherwise it works from cache
Jul 09 15:54:32 <anrp> which are you talking about? maps?
Jul 09 15:54:46 <SpeedEvil> To get a position within 1s probably requires the low-frequency clock - or some other time source - and an idea of the time to within +-0.5ms
Jul 09 15:54:50 <galexande> i want to write a map application, i'm just trying to dream up how to make the integration good ;)
Jul 09 15:54:55 <anrp> ah D:
Jul 09 15:54:57 <SpeedEvil> +-0.3 or so
Jul 09 15:55:04 <anrp> yes... precise timing
Jul 09 15:55:06 <SpeedEvil> So 5 mins or so.
Jul 09 15:55:17 <alex-weej> Neo 1973 only has USB 1.1? :(
Jul 09 15:55:26 <SpeedEvil> alex-weej: yes
Jul 09 15:55:27 <wonderblood> jes
Jul 09 15:55:32 <anrp> does the gps use a 32.768khz crystal for the low power standby?
Jul 09 15:55:33 <alex-weej> how come?
Jul 09 15:55:42 <wonderblood> chipset
Jul 09 15:55:43 <anrp> and the full speed crystal for high power standby?
Jul 09 15:55:49 <SpeedEvil> anrp: yes - IIRC
Jul 09 15:55:59 <galexande> alex, the s3c2410 or whatever integrated chip they use doesn't have usb 2.0
Jul 09 15:56:08 <galexande> but it has almost *everything* else so it's a good design tradeoff
Jul 09 15:56:13 <alex-weej> galexande: i see.
Jul 09 15:56:17 <anrp> and gta02  is even better D:
Jul 09 15:56:19 <anrp> more gooder!
Jul 09 15:56:22 <alex-weej> galexande: shame it's just so slow
Jul 09 15:56:32 <galexande> alex, i'm gonna live with the bluetooth and not kid myself about speed :)
Jul 09 15:56:33 <SpeedEvil> anrp: the full speed crystal is the best quality available (cheaply) it's used as a reference locally to time the satellites against. The 32Khz crystal is simply used to keep time.
Jul 09 15:56:52 <alex-weej> galexande: what about transferring music and stuff?
Jul 09 15:56:58 <galexande> alex, batch mode
Jul 09 15:57:03 <anrp> right, but the high power standby mode may keep it engaged to keep a time available that's accurate for longer
Jul 09 15:57:06 <anrp> i think?
Jul 09 15:57:07 <alex-weej> galexande: que?
Jul 09 15:57:15 <galexande> i'll just copy shit while i sleep
Jul 09 15:57:16 <SpeedEvil> anrp: I think so.
Jul 09 15:57:20 <juri_> so, still no resolution to the flooded order page? :)
Jul 09 15:57:26 <ruoso> does anyone has any info on the status of the site?
Jul 09 15:57:29 <galexande> i used to have the newspaper downloaded to my palmtop every morning, that was pretty cool
Jul 09 15:57:31 <juri_> (white page)
Jul 09 15:57:37 <SpeedEvil> anrp: the chipset is unfortunately not properly documented.
Jul 09 15:57:43 <anrp> surprise :/ few are
Jul 09 15:57:46 <galexande> juri, your "state" needs to be two uppercase letters
Jul 09 15:57:47 <ruoso> I'm trying to place an order, but without success
Jul 09 15:58:03 <SpeedEvil> anrp: werll - there is an NDA, and a 2 page sheet. Fortunately, strace + ...
Jul 09 15:58:12 <galexande> heh speed are you the one that requested the strace
Jul 09 15:58:23 <anrp> specially since you have the dumb IF frontend, instead of a fully integrated module
Jul 09 15:58:25 <SpeedEvil> Umm.
Jul 09 15:58:25 <galexande> gps would be greek to me, if i found the numbers i wouldn't know what they mean
Jul 09 15:58:28 <SpeedEvil> galexande: maybe
Jul 09 15:58:52 <anrp> cheaper, lower power... but involves closed code
Jul 09 15:59:05 <alex-weej> does it have 802.11b/g?
Jul 09 15:59:07 <SpeedEvil> anrp: in practice.
Jul 09 15:59:16 <galexande> alex, gta02 will in several months
Jul 09 15:59:22 <alex-weej> galexande: what's gta02?
Jul 09 15:59:26 <SpeedEvil> anrp: there is a closed source driver that can be put in a chroot
Jul 09 15:59:27 <alex-weej> galexande: this interests me... :D
Jul 09 15:59:36 <galexande> alex, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html
Jul 09 15:59:39 <SpeedEvil> alex-weej: no
Jul 09 15:59:58 <alex-weej> oh btw have you guys seen that new T-Mobile product that automatically switches you between 802.11g and GSM when making calls?
Jul 09 16:00:08 <SpeedEvil> And the lack of the wiki makes the lack of 'This is not a functioning phone' more vital.
Jul 09 16:00:14 <anrp> getting PVT from phase info is essentially the core part of gps, so reimplementing it is unlikely to be trivial...
Jul 09 16:00:17 <galexande> heh speed and how
Jul 09 16:00:18 <SpeedEvil> alex-weej: it's not that simple.
Jul 09 16:00:19 <woglinde> alex-weej the new htc device?
Jul 09 16:00:29 <anrp> and also probably why it's closed
Jul 09 16:00:42 <alex-weej> SpeedEvil: it's not as simple as what?
Jul 09 16:00:44 <SpeedEvil> anrp: that part is in fact trivial.
Jul 09 16:00:47 <alex-weej> woglinde: htc?
Jul 09 16:00:53 <anrp> hm?
Jul 09 16:00:59 <wonderblood> is there a standby function - like a clock?
Jul 09 16:01:15 <SpeedEvil> alex-weej: T-mobile have their own protocol which is not public, and you have to be on t-mobile network
Jul 09 16:01:20 <woglinde> alex-weej all phones dont came from vendors not from providers
Jul 09 16:01:21 <galexande> hmmm, so, i picked the wrong instant in time to try to determine what s3c chip is in the openmoko
Jul 09 16:01:23 <galexande> er neo
Jul 09 16:01:29 <alex-weej> SpeedEvil: i know that, but the idea is brilliant
Jul 09 16:01:31 <miip_> alex-weej: you mean the TC300?
Jul 09 16:01:31 <anrp> s3c2410
Jul 09 16:01:33 <anrp> ?
Jul 09 16:01:43 <galexande> is it the 2410?  i just pulled that out of my butt before
Jul 09 16:01:44 <SpeedEvil> ga/window size 20
Jul 09 16:01:44 <anrp> -26
Jul 09 16:02:00 <alex-weej> if only it could be standardised
Jul 09 16:02:04 <anrp> yes, 01bv4 is
Jul 09 16:02:05 <SpeedEvil> galexande: something in that family.
Jul 09 16:02:07 <galexande> thanks anrp
Jul 09 16:02:24 <anrp> samsung's site has gone strange, i was unable to get the datasheet
Jul 09 16:02:32 <anrp> i think it might have been broken on safari
Jul 09 16:02:39 <galexande> we'll see how it works in lynx :)
Jul 09 16:02:43 <anrp> that is .. 
Jul 09 16:03:20 <galexande> i should develop a touchscreen UI for lynx
Jul 09 16:03:28 <galexande> god, why doesn't anyone else come up with these brilliant ideas :)
Jul 09 16:03:30 <anrp> yeah there's some stupid navigation stuff on samsung's website
Jul 09 16:03:35 <anrp> actually, links works with gpm
Jul 09 16:03:41 <anrp> i think you can link gpm to a ts
Jul 09 16:03:49 <galexande> hahahaha yeah, you can make gpm read from X, which reads from the ts
Jul 09 16:04:00 <woglinde> *g*
Jul 09 16:04:00 <galexande> or maybe you can make X read from gpm, one way or the other
Jul 09 16:04:12 <anrp> and have 3 hacks stacked on top of each other! yay!
Jul 09 16:04:48 <unknown_lamer> galexande: just run w3m in an xterm
Jul 09 16:05:06 <galexande> i don't like w3m or links, i like lynx :)
Jul 09 16:05:17 <galexande> i'll just use an onscreen keyboard to interact with it :)
Jul 09 16:05:31 <unknown_lamer> yank the xterm mouse support from w3m and port it to lynx then ;-)
Jul 09 16:06:33 <galexande> i've convinced myself i'd rather use dillo :)
Jul 09 16:06:40 <anrp> ... samsung's website really is terrible
Jul 09 16:06:50 <anrp> didn't someone tell them that you can't put all your content inside flash?
Jul 09 16:06:56 <anrp> it used to be a lot better
Jul 09 16:07:00 <empty_min1> hello moko
Jul 09 16:07:11 <unknown_lamer> anrp: flash is the new web browser
Jul 09 16:07:29 <unknown_lamer> nowadays half the web is useless to poor emacs-w3m users such as myself
Jul 09 16:07:59 <galexande> unknown, but it's teh useless half so who cares
Jul 09 16:08:10 <anrp> not always
Jul 09 16:08:13 <anrp> as this example shows ;/
Jul 09 16:08:14 <unknown_lamer> galexande: yeah, and now I get to code instead of dick around online
Jul 09 16:08:18 <empty_mind> guys any devices left ?
Jul 09 16:09:40 <galexande> that's a question no one is willing to answer anymore :)
Jul 09 16:10:08 <pjz> Aww, they should have put some stats up onthe web page
Jul 09 16:10:14 <pjz> like how many orders they got per hour
Jul 09 16:10:31 <anrp> an excel product list...
Jul 09 16:10:36 <woglinde> empty_mind dont know, the people who knows aren't here
Jul 09 16:10:37 <anrp> wth?
Jul 09 16:14:11 <wasabi> does the moko phone thing have an accelerated ui like the iphone?
Jul 09 16:14:33 <anrp> )
Jul 09 16:14:34 <galexande> wasabi, it doesn't have a ui yet
Jul 09 16:14:40 <anrp> http://www.hhcn.org/maindoc/um_s3c2410s_rev12_030428.pdf
Jul 09 16:14:49 <anrp> seriously. it doesn't even exist on samsung's web site
Jul 09 16:14:53 <anrp> that one is a bit old
Jul 09 16:14:58 <galexande> i found it on samsung with no trouble whatsoever :)
Jul 09 16:15:00 <alex-weej> with openmoko, could i hack something to do an offline voicemail system so that i don't get extorted by network voicemail prices?
Jul 09 16:15:01 <galexande> but i had to use firefoix
Jul 09 16:15:07 <wasabi> ... no UI?
Jul 09 16:15:08 <anrp> huh?
Jul 09 16:15:17 <wasabi> So what exactly are you buying for $300? heh
Jul 09 16:15:18 <anrp> wait, are they looking at referrer?
Jul 09 16:15:25 <alex-weej> hey wasabi :D
Jul 09 16:15:27 <wasabi> hi
Jul 09 16:15:30 <galexande> wasabi, it's hardware.  developers can add software to it, but that hasn't happened yet.
Jul 09 16:15:33 <wasabi> oh.
Jul 09 16:15:38 <wasabi> oh well, n/m then heh
Jul 09 16:15:44 <galexande> i mean, technically it can place and receive calls without going to a shell prompt
Jul 09 16:15:59 <galexande> but if you want voicemail, you're talking gsm at commands to a serial console
Jul 09 16:16:04 <galexande> or text messages
Jul 09 16:16:14 <wasabi> so it's pretty far from actually something that people can use
Jul 09 16:16:22 <galexande> wasabi, yes.
Jul 09 16:16:27 <woglinde> wasabi yes
Jul 09 16:16:35 <woglinde> developer can
Jul 09 16:16:42 <woglinde> normal people no
Jul 09 16:16:44 <wasabi> for some definition of developers, sure. =)
Jul 09 16:16:54 <wasabi> thanks.
Jul 09 16:18:03 <thomasg_gpm> well, I'm not a developer, but I guess I can, too :)
Jul 09 16:18:37 <juri_> ok, the orders page is working in firefox, and not in mozilla, or konqueror.
Jul 09 16:18:41 <alex-weej> so can someone answer my question? is it possible to hack something that can take voicemail on the phone itself rather than via the network?
Jul 09 16:18:52 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jul 09 16:18:55 <alex-weej> sweet
Jul 09 16:19:08 <alex-weej> i miss calls all the time and i hate having to pay 20p/minute!
Jul 09 16:19:11 <SpeedEvil> the audio can be routed through the CPU for all sorts of wierd stuff
Jul 09 16:19:22 <maxauthority> mhm, will the moko be able to grep sms messages e.g. since it has a terminal?
Jul 09 16:19:24 <galexande> man, the s3c2410 does it all!
Jul 09 16:19:25 <jpcass> so long as the phone is on when the call arrives you could automate answer and record to flash
Jul 09 16:19:27 <alex-weej> btw what's all the hoo har about the FCC having a bit of a paddy about open source radios?
Jul 09 16:19:40 <galexande> it's the same one as in the h1940, no wonder this looks familiar
Jul 09 16:20:03 <jpcass> if someone ports asterisk to openmoko local voicemail will be a cinch
Jul 09 16:20:13 <galexande> alex, the FCC has strict rules for all consumer devices that they can only emit on certain bands, and if they want to emit on other bands, they have to be very carefully controlled
Jul 09 16:20:14 <alex-weej> :O
Jul 09 16:20:29 <juri_> i also get the white page on internet explorer...
Jul 09 16:20:37 <galexande> alex, open software radios cannot satisfy any of those guarantees, and never will, so the FCC will never approve of them
Jul 09 16:21:13 <galexande> juri, are you entering your state as two uppercase letters?
Jul 09 16:21:18 <juri_> yes.
Jul 09 16:21:23 <galexande> then maybe it's just fubared :)
Jul 09 16:21:46 <roh> juri_ the shop is down atm
Jul 09 16:21:56 <galexande> sold out? :)
Jul 09 16:22:05 <woglinde> roh why?
Jul 09 16:22:12 <galexande> wog, /.
Jul 09 16:22:36 <daxxar> http://rafb.net/p/IEaKag14.html - Anyone able to help me out with this error when building? :-(
Jul 09 16:22:51 <daxxar> make setup && make openmoko-devel-image
Jul 09 16:23:09 <galexande> nope i didn't get those errors
Jul 09 16:24:11 <galexande> so i heard a rumor the s3c2410 had fpu, but it doesn't look like i heard right
Jul 09 16:24:21 <SpeedEvil> No, no FPU
Jul 09 16:24:44 <deepank__> daxxar:I too did not get those errors, did you install the prerequisites for OE?
Jul 09 16:24:58 <roh> woglinde because apache sucks and eats memory
Jul 09 16:24:59 <galexande> i can't believe it's a 266MHz processor with a 640x480 display, that's just crazy
Jul 09 16:25:15 <bhima_> I wouldn't port asterisk to openmoko. If you want voicemail, writing something straightforward from scratch would be much more reasonable IMHO.
Jul 09 16:25:16 <woglinde> roh hehe why you didnt took lighttp
Jul 09 16:25:41 <woglinde> openmoko needs better consulting
Jul 09 16:25:42 <juri_> galex: my nokia 770 has less cpu, but still plays fullscreen video (800x480).
Jul 09 16:25:48 <goodfoot> I really would like to see emacs on it.
Jul 09 16:26:14 <zecke|work> woglinde: ?
Jul 09 16:26:16 <jpcass> 770 has hardware pixel doubling and hardware mp3 decode...
Jul 09 16:26:23 <woglinde> zecke yes?
Jul 09 16:26:23 <deepank__> goodfoot:emacs will be good but tying is still a problem 
Jul 09 16:26:32 <woglinde> that apache suckz knows everybody
Jul 09 16:26:38 <woglinde> or not
Jul 09 16:26:41 <daxxar> deepank__: I believe so.
Jul 09 16:26:41 <woglinde> dont know ;)
Jul 09 16:26:53 <ScaredyCat> speaking in tongues you are...
Jul 09 16:27:36 <daxxar> Followed http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/OEandYourDistro for Ubuntu
Jul 09 16:27:53 <mjr> jpcass, re. pixel doubling, the neo can do fullscreen scaled qvga
Jul 09 16:28:25 <jpcass> mjr: neat, in hardware?
Jul 09 16:28:28 <SpeedEvil> Yes
Jul 09 16:28:33 <SpeedEvil> The LCD does it
Jul 09 16:28:56 <deepank__> daxxar:ok , then you can try this command : make clean-package-quilt-native
Jul 09 16:29:01 <deepank__> and try to rebuild
Jul 09 16:29:05 <jpcass> anyone porting mplayer for neo?
Jul 09 16:29:21 <SpeedEvil> gmplayer should just about work as a stylus app
Jul 09 16:30:10 * ruoso finally made into the third step and has his order placed
Jul 09 16:30:25 * ruoso hope it didn't create a new order for every time it returned a blank page
Jul 09 16:30:31 <roh> woglinde i AM taking lighty now. but need to complete migrate the config first
Jul 09 16:30:32 <juri_> yay! its up!
Jul 09 16:30:38 <unknown_lamer> ruoso: now you have 15 neos
Jul 09 16:30:55 <ScaredyCat> (advanced)
Jul 09 16:31:03 <woglinde> roh ;)
Jul 09 16:31:12 <ruoso> unknown_lamer, probably I have all of them, if it created an order for every blank return
Jul 09 16:31:14 <roh> white pages usually seem to mean no order at all
Jul 09 16:31:18 <woglinde> roh dont forget the clustering
Jul 09 16:31:19 <galexande> jpcass, it's been run already, i don't know if it's part of openmoko
Jul 09 16:31:46 <ruoso> I had at least 30 blank returns
Jul 09 16:33:02 <galexande> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhzm_hpEbo
Jul 09 16:33:06 <galexande> (mplyer on neo)
Jul 09 16:33:55 <macogw> does the neo have voicedialing?
Jul 09 16:34:02 <SpeedEvil> macogw: no
Jul 09 16:34:07 <macogw> ok
Jul 09 16:34:08 <SpeedEvil> It could.
Jul 09 16:34:16 <macogw> just doesnt at teh moment
Jul 09 16:34:16 <astinus> If you wrote it ;)
Jul 09 16:34:21 <macogw> yeah
Jul 09 16:34:23 <galexande> macogw, it barely has dialing
Jul 09 16:34:25 <SpeedEvil> Basically, at the moment, the answer to any software question is no.
Jul 09 16:34:27 <macogw> haha
Jul 09 16:34:42 <SpeedEvil> With very, very few exceptions.
Jul 09 16:34:48 <tuukkah> SpeedEvil, is there a roadmap ?-)
Jul 09 16:34:49 <Basheri> SpeedEvil: u have an alias for that? :P
Jul 09 16:34:54 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jul 09 16:35:14 <SpeedEvil> tunecel: yes - somewhere on the wiki
Jul 09 16:35:16 <SpeedEvil> which is down
Jul 09 16:35:45 <galexande> i am so excited about the specs of this thing
Jul 09 16:36:06 <summatusmentis> I'm excited for the unannounced specs on the other openmoko machines :-)
Jul 09 16:36:08 <SpeedEvil> A copy of the Neo1973 and FAQ pages are at the URL in the topic.
Jul 09 16:36:16 <macogw> the old press page had a lot of info
Jul 09 16:36:53 <galexande> my ipaq lives with a total of 36M RAM and 50M storage somehow, the neo will be monstrous by comparison
Jul 09 16:37:00 <galexande> i won't feel like a hero just for getting gcc installed
Jul 09 16:37:14 <SpeedEvil> Actually - it seems to be waking up now.
Jul 09 16:37:22 <SpeedEvil> (the wiki)
Jul 09 16:37:35 <Hopscotch> seems like some of the *openmoko*-sites have problems with their virtual servers
Jul 09 16:38:18 <astinus> Probably a lack of memory, exacerbated by Slashdot.
Jul 09 16:38:18 <woglinde> hopscotch yes
Jul 09 16:38:22 <juri_> Noooo!
Jul 09 16:38:35 <woglinde> hopscotch was discussed here 5 minutes ago
Jul 09 16:38:40 <Hopscotch> ah, hehe
Jul 09 16:38:47 <Hopscotch> sorry - should have read the backlog
Jul 09 16:38:50 <woglinde> now transition from apache to lighttp
Jul 09 16:39:03 <juri_> DNS error...
Jul 09 16:39:16 <Hopscotch> lightty rocks :)
Jul 09 16:39:17 <galexande> the s3c2410 says it is only up to 206MHz?
Jul 09 16:39:19 <galexande> er, 203
Jul 09 16:40:32 <galexande> well, the older revision of the datasheet says 266, so whatever
Jul 09 16:43:41 <galexande> hmmm, i'm real curious how active the processor is when the phone is in standby
Jul 09 16:46:23 <anrp> you have to define what you mean by phone in standby
Jul 09 16:46:51 <anrp> you can do dynamic frequency scaling with the s3c2410 (although linux may not support it (yet))
Jul 09 16:47:29 <galexande> i can't tell if there's a power-down mode at less than 10mA that keeps the lcd running
Jul 09 16:47:39 <ScaredyCat> andylockran: did you svn up ?
Jul 09 16:47:44 <Hopscotch> the main problem here is the backlight
Jul 09 16:50:19 <SpeedEvil> galexande: no
Jul 09 16:50:33 <SpeedEvil> galexande: The lowest powerdown modeis 12Mhz
Jul 09 16:50:39 <SpeedEvil> galexande: wh9ich uses 50mW
Jul 09 16:50:55 <SpeedEvil> galexande: it needs IIRC >100Mhz to run the display at all.
Jul 09 16:51:04 <thomasg_gpm> the power consumtion if the arm devices is rea lly impressive
Jul 09 16:51:16 <SpeedEvil> Not in this phone alas.
Jul 09 16:51:19 <drath> SpeedEvil: could the 2d/3d accelerator change this?
Jul 09 16:51:32 <SpeedEvil> drath: perhaps.
Jul 09 16:51:50 <SpeedEvil> drath: it can be used to display the image while the CPU is off or slow
Jul 09 16:51:58 <kinlo> the screen is going to be fully powered down when the phone is idle?
Jul 09 16:52:02 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jul 09 16:52:04 <drath> SpeedEvil: ah, nice
Jul 09 16:52:12 <SpeedEvil> The screen is also not at all reflective
Jul 09 16:52:23 <SpeedEvil> you can't see it at all in reflected light with the backlight off
Jul 09 16:52:28 <anrp> shame
Jul 09 16:52:44 <SpeedEvil> There is a tradeoff between brightness of backlight and reflection
Jul 09 16:52:59 <SpeedEvil> if you have it somewhat reflective, you need double the power
Jul 09 16:53:31 <anrp> true
Jul 09 16:53:45 <anrp> but to fully side on the side of transmissive seems a bit strange, given this is a mobile device
Jul 09 16:54:33 <SpeedEvil> Even the best reflective displays of the conventional sort are only a few % reflective
Jul 09 16:54:50 <anrp> it only needs a few % :/
Jul 09 16:55:57 <SpeedEvil> But to get 5% reflection, you need 100% more backlight...
Jul 09 16:56:20 <galexande> well, of all the gosh-darn problems.
Jul 09 16:56:26 <anrp> i haven't seen one of the screens in real life yet so I can't really comment on it
Jul 09 16:56:35 <astinus> I'm rather looking forward to general-availability of this kit :)
Jul 09 16:56:46 <anrp> but it might be ok to make it dimmer... the transmissive display on my Z is stupidly bright, for instance
Jul 09 16:56:48 <SpeedEvil> It's basically unusable in full sunlight.
Jul 09 16:56:48 <astinus> got a lot of rather neat projects in mind, if I can dig out the $450
Jul 09 16:56:53 <galexande> i think it's building gcc-cross target=arm, host=i386, so it's calling the host's gcc command
Jul 09 16:56:58 <galexande> and the host calls "as ..."
Jul 09 16:57:19 <SpeedEvil> astinus: unless you're developing u-boot, you shouldn't need the advanced
Jul 09 16:57:23 <galexande> and there just happens to be a script anmed "as" in the current directory
Jul 09 16:57:27 <anrp> lol
Jul 09 16:58:03 <Tronic> Reflective display would be nice for a mobile phone.
Jul 09 16:58:05 <anrp> is Vcore 2.0v?
Jul 09 16:58:09 <anrp> or 1.8?
Jul 09 16:58:11 <Tronic> I've only seen them on GPS devices.
Jul 09 16:58:23 <astinus> SpeedEvil: This is true :)  I'm actually looking to get something like Ruby working on there, get some kind of ethernet interface working, and develop a network-accessible texting interface
Jul 09 16:58:25 <anrp> i have a tablet with a 10" reflective display, a fujitsu one
Jul 09 16:58:30 <SpeedEvil> B+W displays are easy to do reflective
Jul 09 16:58:32 <anrp> its amazing in full sun
Jul 09 16:59:16 <anrp> 24 bit color too ..
Jul 09 16:59:41 <tuukkah> slashdot: "the price will be $450 for the Neo Base and $600 for Neo Advanced." "-really close to feature parity with the iPhone, but if you compare the two top end models, the price is the same."
Jul 09 16:59:55 <SpeedEvil> That's for the October version
Jul 09 17:00:11 <anrp> misinformation, too, the $600 version isn't better hardware wise than the $450
Jul 09 17:00:21 <tuukkah> my point is, they are thinking "advanced" means better
Jul 09 17:00:24 <anrp> well .. it does come with a pelican case
Jul 09 17:00:26 <anrp> but still D:
Jul 09 17:00:32 <Rince> the hardware is the same in both models
Jul 09 17:00:35 <ben_goodger> oh, yes, that was weird
Jul 09 17:00:36 <tuukkah> i don't think it should be called advanced. for this reason.
Jul 09 17:00:47 <Rince> has Sean confirmed that a manual upgrade from gta01_04 to gta02 is poossible?
Jul 09 17:01:02 <anrp> huh?
Jul 09 17:01:02 <SpeedEvil> He's said it's possible
Jul 09 17:01:11 <SpeedEvil> but not confirmed if it will be offered.
Jul 09 17:01:12 <anrp> manual upgrade.. swapping boards?
Jul 09 17:01:17 <Rince> anrp: yes
Jul 09 17:01:20 <galexande> yeoah everything has convenient connectors
Jul 09 17:01:25 <Rince> SpeedEvil: that's the last thing for me to wait with the order ;)
Jul 09 17:01:26 <anrp> talk about user friendly ~_~
Jul 09 17:01:30 <seemant> did they confirm that there's a discount on the gta02 if you already have the gta01?
Jul 09 17:01:33 <SpeedEvil> The case, GPS antenna, don't change
Jul 09 17:01:37 <anrp> confirm no discount
Jul 09 17:01:38 <SpeedEvil> seemant: no, there is not
Jul 09 17:01:40 <Rince> seemant: there won't be a discoun
Jul 09 17:01:43 <Rince> +t
Jul 09 17:01:52 <seemant> then I'll probably just wait for gta02 :(
Jul 09 17:01:55 <SpeedEvil> seem: the 01 is discounted instead
Jul 09 17:02:04 <seemant> SpeedEvil: oh?
Jul 09 17:02:31 <astinus> seemant: 01 is $300/$450 not $450/$600
Jul 09 17:02:50 <galexande> lynx http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-June/000013.html
Jul 09 17:02:51 <seemant> ah
Jul 09 17:02:56 <galexande> er you don't need the lynx part :)
Jul 09 17:04:36 <seemant> thanks galexande 
Jul 09 17:04:40 <DynWind> I think I've got the perfect slogan for openmoko:
Jul 09 17:04:56 <DynWind> "Don't question why she needs to be so free/She'll tell you it's the only way to be"
Jul 09 17:05:00 <DynWind> :)
Jul 09 17:05:06 <anrp> she?
Jul 09 17:05:12 <anrp> it..
Jul 09 17:05:20 <anrp> but then again, i'm no marketer
Jul 09 17:05:21 <woglinde> she == naked woman?
Jul 09 17:05:30 <woglinde> or what?
Jul 09 17:05:37 <anrp> ...
Jul 09 17:05:45 <seemant> website typo: http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-04-software.html "are build" should be "are built"
Jul 09 17:05:56 <DynWind> it's from Rolling Stones - Ruby Tuesday
Jul 09 17:06:01 <tuukkah> what's this talk about no stereo headphones in iPhone, should we include this in https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone ?
Jul 09 17:06:09 <DynWind> c'mon, as if you guys don't get a hard-on thinking about the phone :P
Jul 09 17:06:49 <ScaredyCat> we're a little more grown up...
Jul 09 17:06:53 <mil__> anrp: when you do send out the order confirmation? only got the auto-reply since yesterday
Jul 09 17:07:00 <anrp> :?
Jul 09 17:07:05 <anrp> i am not the keeper of the phones
Jul 09 17:07:19 <carrar> I didn't even get a auto-reply
Jul 09 17:07:29 <anrp> i got the auto-reply immediately but i got my order in early too
Jul 09 17:07:31 <ScaredyCat> from the ticket syste?
Jul 09 17:07:34 <mil__> oh, sry
Jul 09 17:07:36 <anrp> thats all ive gotten tho
Jul 09 17:07:37 <ScaredyCat> mmm....
Jul 09 17:07:52 <galexande> tuukkah, the iphone just doesn't fit most headphones because its connector is too deeply recessed
Jul 09 17:07:56 <carrar> I don't even know if the order worked
Jul 09 17:07:59 <seemant> do we know if 01 syncs contacts and calendars over bluetooth with my laptop's evolution?
Jul 09 17:08:01 <CM> Well written: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/07/09/neo_1973_launch/
Jul 09 17:08:09 <galexande> seemant, software = no
Jul 09 17:08:23 <ScaredyCat> lol seemant
Jul 09 17:08:23 <galexande> CM, how's it feel to be the first one
Jul 09 17:08:34 <tuukkah> galexande, sounds like a design point for neo then =)
Jul 09 17:08:36 <CM> galexande: Hehe.. Lucky bastard
Jul 09 17:08:41 <seemant> ScaredyCat: seriously? I thought that was a planned feature
Jul 09 17:08:57 <ScaredyCat> yeah, but not yet
Jul 09 17:09:05 <mil__> anrp: same for me. but did you get a order confirmation?
Jul 09 17:09:08 <CM> galexande: I just came home from a huge dinner, looked at the channel and saw some noise about the store, then ordered a phone right away. :D
Jul 09 17:09:32 <seemant> so it really only makes calls right now?
Jul 09 17:09:36 <galexande> wow
Jul 09 17:09:38 <seemant> and, probably, receives them
Jul 09 17:09:42 <CM> seemant: Barely that
Jul 09 17:09:45 <seemant> barely?
Jul 09 17:09:49 <CM> The dialer is a bit buggy
Jul 09 17:09:58 <galexande> and ugly
Jul 09 17:10:00 <CM> The software is far from finished
Jul 09 17:10:09 <galexande> yay, i made a specs file for my gcc-i386 and that solevd it all
Jul 09 17:10:11 <CM> galexande: Yes, awful. At least in qemu
Jul 09 17:10:14 <seemant> right, so for 300, what are we buying exactly then?
Jul 09 17:10:40 <sannes> How many have received an order confirmation (the second message?), I was pretty early, but has received no such thing..
Jul 09 17:10:45 <CM> seemant: A small arm computer with a 640x480 touchscreen, gsm modem and a gps :D
Jul 09 17:10:46 <happycube> a hackable prototype ;)
Jul 09 17:10:53 <galexande> seemant, a PCB populated with an s3c2410, some SDRAM, flash, microSD, an LCD+touchscreen, and a USB cable
Jul 09 17:10:55 <galexande> oh and a battery and case
Jul 09 17:11:00 <seemant> ha, fair enough
Jul 09 17:11:09 <ScaredyCat> CM ... they seem to be suggesting tat the advanced kit consists of the base kit + screwdriver... 
Jul 09 17:11:13 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Debug_Board/it]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973/it]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[GSM]] [[Gsm]] [[User:Chairboy]] [[Shipping_Notes]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Hardware_Developer/it]] [[Translation_HOWTO/de]] and other changes
Jul 09 17:11:13 <drear> seemant, a development platform.
Jul 09 17:11:18 <seemant> ScaredyCat: and a guitar pick
Jul 09 17:11:21 <galexande> sannes, no one yet, i think they may be waiting for the phone to clear customs before charging our cards or something
Jul 09 17:11:26 <anrp> and a pelican case!
Jul 09 17:11:28 <CM> ScaredyCat: The big thing is the jtag debug board
Jul 09 17:11:29 <happycube> advanced also has the debug board... jtag!
Jul 09 17:11:35 <happycube> usb-bridged for ease of use, too.
Jul 09 17:11:36 <sannes> galexande: ah, so no need to worry then :)
Jul 09 17:11:55 <CM> happycube: Hehe.. I think we're on the same wavelength, at least by looking at our answers above ;)
Jul 09 17:12:19 <ScaredyCat> CM: yes, bu they don;t actually mention it in the article...
Jul 09 17:12:24 <ScaredyCat> only the screwdriver
Jul 09 17:12:40 <happycube> i actually have some odd thoughts on the gta01... very basic phone with a nice lcd, and most of the actual stuff going over usb/bt tethering
Jul 09 17:12:41 <tunecel> sannes:i got one a minute or so after my order
Jul 09 17:12:54 <ScaredyCat> "advanced set (with screwdriver) for $450. "
Jul 09 17:12:55 <CM> ScaredyCat: Ah, true. The article could have been more clear on that point
Jul 09 17:13:10 <ScaredyCat> it doesn't even mention the jtag
Jul 09 17:13:12 <happycube> a lot of interface stuff just dosen't go touchscreen very well - i.e. text messaging.  then again unlike iphone neo can deal with bt kbds ;)
Jul 09 17:13:36 <galexande> happy i'm real curious to see how usable we can make the UI, really
Jul 09 17:13:40 <happycube> ditto
Jul 09 17:13:47 <galexande> everything except games i think can be done on just a touchscreen with no multitouch or awkwardness
Jul 09 17:13:52 <CM> I want to try HexInput
Jul 09 17:13:55 <happycube> i wonder if gta01's 3d is fixed function or program-based
Jul 09 17:13:57 <galexande> if you're willing to type on a virtual keyboard :)
Jul 09 17:14:22 <ScaredyCat> or carry a full sized usb one ...
Jul 09 17:14:23 <happycube> fragment programs are *fun*... last week i wrote a program that warped a jpg and used almost no cpu power
Jul 09 17:14:26 * ScaredyCat giggles
Jul 09 17:14:32 <happycube> *bitmapped jpg
Jul 09 17:14:39 <juri_> Yay!
Jul 09 17:14:43 <juri_> Stage 3! :)
Jul 09 17:14:49 <happycube> i have a targus bt keyboard already ;)
Jul 09 17:14:53 <loufoque> happycube: how fast was it?
Jul 09 17:14:58 <happycube> smooth
Jul 09 17:15:15 <happycube> i was having problems with the parameter texture so it wasn't doing the inbetween frames right
Jul 09 17:15:31 <happycube> i had to boot my macbook into macos because the dri gma950 driver was buggy - i need the latest x.org on etch somehow :(
Jul 09 17:15:56 <happycube> and then if that dosen't work i'll turn it into a bug report for the dri ppl
Jul 09 17:16:46 <happycube> i used sin+cos and some multiplies to non-linearly pick a bit of the texture and dri didn't care for that much
Jul 09 17:17:13 <happycube> but anyhow... i think the ui (even with fixed function 3d) will be quite nice on gta02 ;)
Jul 09 17:17:21 <happycube> *look
Jul 09 17:19:21 <loufoque> why does the theme slow openmoko down so much?
Jul 09 17:19:27 <galexande> so this new 2.6.22 kernel, does it actually not need an ypatches?
Jul 09 17:19:43 <sannes> tunecel: so you have received two e-mails?
Jul 09 17:19:56 <juri_> what boot loader comes on this thing?
Jul 09 17:20:07 <anrp> u-boot
Jul 09 17:20:31 <anrp> where's the jbt6k74 datasheet? as far as I can tell it doesn't exist on toshiba's taec site
Jul 09 17:22:11 <tunecel> sannes: one conformation mail with my number #2129
Jul 09 17:22:31 <tunecel> sannes:only one
Jul 09 17:23:03 <woglinde> uh
Jul 09 17:23:06 <woglinde> nice
Jul 09 17:23:23 <woglinde> hm ups
Jul 09 17:23:35 <woglinde> only 200 more than yesterday evening
Jul 09 17:23:46 <tunecel> jup
Jul 09 17:23:52 <pygi> o well
Jul 09 17:23:55 <woglinde> but 200 more
Jul 09 17:23:59 <woglinde> anyway
Jul 09 17:24:11 * pygi wonders how much would he have to pay for import taxes and such
Jul 09 17:24:17 <tunecel> i order in the morning
Jul 09 17:25:21 <happycube> what's the status of web browsers on openmoko?
Jul 09 17:25:21 <juri_> openmoko.com is down. 
Jul 09 17:25:32 <woglinde> juri we know
Jul 09 17:25:37 <juri_> ah, back up.
Jul 09 17:25:38 <tunecel> i got no cc yesterday 21:30
Jul 09 17:25:42 <cjb> he said web browsers, not web servers :)
Jul 09 17:26:08 <CM> happycube: You can ask zecke what he's up to ;)
Jul 09 17:26:12 <woglinde> happy cube minimo should work
Jul 09 17:26:16 <happycube> nice
Jul 09 17:26:20 <woglinde> konq_emb too
Jul 09 17:26:26 <happycube> "
Jul 09 17:26:28 <woglinde> and all the console based
Jul 09 17:26:41 <woglinde> opera should work too
Jul 09 17:26:50 <SpeedEvil> A couple of pages from wiki linked in topic
Jul 09 17:26:55 <SpeedEvil> FAQ and Neo1973
Jul 09 17:26:58 <woglinde> opera mini should work if it runs with classpath
Jul 09 17:27:00 <SpeedEvil> IMO, FF should work
Jul 09 17:27:14 <woglinde> speedevil pff oversized
Jul 09 17:27:15 <SpeedEvil> Some disagree.
Jul 09 17:27:30 <SpeedEvil> My POV is that I run FF now on a PII/300, 128M
Jul 09 17:27:39 <SpeedEvil> and an 800*600 window
Jul 09 17:28:08 <SpeedEvil> No, it's not ideal.
Jul 09 17:28:34 <SpeedEvil> I've currently got 20 tabs open.
Jul 09 17:28:44 <galexande> speed, but you can swap easier on a PC than a pda
Jul 09 17:28:50 <SpeedEvil> Not really.
Jul 09 17:28:55 <galexande> you've *always* got 20 tabs open
Jul 09 17:28:57 <SpeedEvil> I'm swapping - as a test - 
Jul 09 17:28:58 <zecke|work> happycube: WebKit/Gtk will be used.
Jul 09 17:29:10 <SpeedEvil> to an AES encrypted partition.
Jul 09 17:29:12 <happycube> cool
Jul 09 17:29:18 <zecke|work> happycube: it uses a tenth of memory Gecko needs to render a page
Jul 09 17:29:32 <galexande> anywys, the official openmoko web browser development is proceeding with webkit, isn't it?
Jul 09 17:29:42 <galexande> i can't remember if webkit was part of gnome or kde or what
Jul 09 17:29:44 <SpeedEvil> galexande: the read/write speed is comparable. And the Neo will use _much_ lower CPU to swap.
Jul 09 17:29:46 <galexande> probably gnome :)
Jul 09 17:29:58 <galexande> speed, i dunno, i think swapping to flash is just bad style
Jul 09 17:30:02 <happycube> webkit was originally apple's adaption of khtml
Jul 09 17:30:19 <woglinde> galexande dont know, the fact is that zecke works on webit as an google soc project
Jul 09 17:30:21 <happycube> so webkit/gtk is kind of both kde and gnome based ;)
Jul 09 17:30:23 <woglinde> webkit
Jul 09 17:30:24 <Aria> webkit was KDE's KHTML, then ported to Cocoa, then re-ported with a compatibility layer to use GTK instead of QT
Jul 09 17:30:35 <Aria> Freakin' bizarre but brilliant work
Jul 09 17:30:40 <Aria> the GTK portion's a bit dodgy still though
Jul 09 17:31:00 * zecke|work shakes his head...
Jul 09 17:31:01 <galexande> that's pretty neat if it can render on both gtk and qt and aqua (or carbon or whatever)
Jul 09 17:31:06 <happycube> zecke - ?
Jul 09 17:31:11 <mmazur> Right. What's the browser gonna be for neo?
Jul 09 17:31:11 <zecke|work> Aria: welcome to 2007...
Jul 09 17:31:29 <zecke|work> mmazur: a frontend needs to be written
Jul 09 17:31:44 <mmazur> zecke|work, for what? Webkit?
Jul 09 17:31:48 <Aria> zecke|work: Thank you thank you. I'll have been here all year.
Jul 09 17:31:57 <mmazur> I believe mozilla ppl are doing something portable.
Jul 09 17:32:01 <mmazur> minimo?
Jul 09 17:32:05 <Aria> minimoz!
Jul 09 17:32:07 <mmazur> Firerat?
Jul 09 17:32:09 <mmazur> Or something.
Jul 09 17:32:10 <happycube> minimo's still larger than webkit/gtk aparently
Jul 09 17:32:15 <Aria> Yeah
Jul 09 17:32:17 <Aria> It is
Jul 09 17:32:22 <galexande> is it just me or is the neo exactly twice the specs of the greenphone (except mhz)
Jul 09 17:32:25 <mmazur> And opera?
Jul 09 17:32:37 <happycube> galexande - also cheaper and fully open
Jul 09 17:32:39 <zecke|work> mmazur: wasn't free software last time I checked
Jul 09 17:32:49 <Aria> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/
Jul 09 17:33:13 <mmazur> zecke|work, well, you don't exactly integrate a browser with the rest of the software all that mouch, so doesn't have to be.
Jul 09 17:33:21 <galexande> jeesh, $700!
Jul 09 17:33:40 <galexande> hahahah software license fee!!!
Jul 09 17:33:55 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: Of course you do!
Jul 09 17:34:02 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: Internet Explorer!
Jul 09 17:34:09 <zecke|work> mmazur: opera will be out of busines by the time the hardware ships
Jul 09 17:34:14 <Aria> Heh
Jul 09 17:34:21 <happycube> heck get to a certain point and you could run the whole UI via the browser if you really wanted
Jul 09 17:34:30 <rillian> order.cgi working for anyone else?
Jul 09 17:34:47 <SpeedEvil> rillian: msg me your CC and I'll tell you :)
Jul 09 17:34:47 <galexande> rillian, slashdot has been a little hard on it
Jul 09 17:35:14 <leonel> Is J2ME working  with openmoko ? or a openjava alternative ?
Jul 09 17:35:16 <rillian> galexande: I figured when I saw it on boingboing this morning I might have trouble
Jul 09 17:35:19 <rillian> SpeedEvil: CC?
Jul 09 17:35:21 <Kero> how many neos have been sold so far?
Jul 09 17:35:24 <Aria> leonel: Classpath at least
Jul 09 17:35:29 <happycube> there've been about 300 web orders
Jul 09 17:35:33 <rillian> SpeedEvil: oh, credit card number. hee heee
Jul 09 17:35:33 <woglinde> leonol cacoa should classpath too
Jul 09 17:35:43 <rillian> happycube: so still a chance to get one of this batch :)
Jul 09 17:35:44 <happycube> zecke - is opera running out of money?
Jul 09 17:35:51 <woglinde> leonol and phoneme can be compiled for arm
Jul 09 17:35:52 <leonel> Aria , woglinde thanks
Jul 09 17:36:02 <woglinde> happycube a little bit
Jul 09 17:36:05 <zecke|work> happycube: woglinde showed their stock quotes
Jul 09 17:36:18 <happycube> i wonder what nokia and nintendo'll do then
Jul 09 17:36:20 <woglinde> the stockcourse gets down and the ceo was kicked out
Jul 09 17:36:23 <happycube> wow
Jul 09 17:36:23 <leonel> woglinde: cocoa ? 
Jul 09 17:36:29 <woglinde> cacoa
Jul 09 17:36:38 <zecke|work> happycube: and the strategy on Opera Mini is due no one is paying them for browser integration (think of nokia series 60)
Jul 09 17:36:38 <woglinde> cacao
Jul 09 17:36:41 <woglinde> let me see
Jul 09 17:36:50 <woglinde> opera mini is java thingy
Jul 09 17:37:25 <galexande> leonel, software = no
Jul 09 17:37:54 <kiney> counter
Jul 09 17:37:54 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, 2 days 18:22:00 (9.765±3.0 days) (1725;246)
Jul 09 17:38:31 <kiney> wow... now the counter is counting down until shipping... but: to what country?
Jul 09 17:38:52 <arw> heheh
Jul 09 17:39:00 <arw> madagascar?
Jul 09 17:39:16 <kiney> could be
Jul 09 17:39:17 <rillian> I get alternately timeout, 500, and order.cgi served with the wrong mime-type
Jul 09 17:39:17 <arw> ;)
Jul 09 17:40:00 <don-o> 300 phones at $300 = $90,000 of moko-loving
Jul 09 17:40:06 <ewon> heh
Jul 09 17:40:24 <woglinde> don-o hm 5% with debugboard?
Jul 09 17:40:26 <daMaestro> oh noes! is the wiki down?
Jul 09 17:40:35 <woglinde> that would be intresting
Jul 09 17:40:38 <daMaestro> roh, ping
Jul 09 17:40:48 <don-o> woglinde: true, im sure some people opted for the debug board.
Jul 09 17:40:57 <pygi> daMaestro, if you try to visit some page directly then it's not
Jul 09 17:40:58 <woglinde> better dont disturbed roh
Jul 09 17:41:07 <arw> i like to obtain the debug board
Jul 09 17:41:19 <roh> daMaestro 
Jul 09 17:41:27 <don-o> im waiting for the first usability reports from non-core-developers before getting a P1
Jul 09 17:41:28 <arw> but i've to wait two weeks :(
Jul 09 17:41:46 <galexande> heh, the usability reports from core developers should be enough to scare anyone off :)
Jul 09 17:41:52 <don-o> galexande: lol
Jul 09 17:41:58 <arw> :)
Jul 09 17:42:30 * Aria laughs
Jul 09 17:42:40 <Aria> I hear "it dials and the hardware works". Good enough for me
Jul 09 17:42:50 <don-o> my main interest in the audiovideo capabilities is to watch battlestar galactica. i was shocked to see the youtube video of mickey playing video and using a battstar episode as the example!
Jul 09 17:42:54 <mmazur> If you like calling via AT commands :)
Jul 09 17:43:04 <anrp> lol
Jul 09 17:43:08 <Aria> I can deal with that.
Jul 09 17:43:08 <don-o> mmazur: brings back memories :)
Jul 09 17:43:10 <anrp> using mplayer?
Jul 09 17:43:16 <Rince> Aria: well - wether it dials the correct numbers is a different question ;)
Jul 09 17:43:18 <happycube> i'd wait for gta02 for video playback m'self
Jul 09 17:43:19 <SpeedEvil> It's not _quite_ that bad mmazur.
Jul 09 17:43:19 <anrp> 266 is pretty slow for video
Jul 09 17:43:26 <don-o> ATDT for3var
Jul 09 17:43:26 <mmazur> Aria, that'd be like uber1337, wouldn't it? :)
Jul 09 17:43:28 <SpeedEvil> anrp: low resolution.
Jul 09 17:43:33 <anrp> nonscaled?
Jul 09 17:43:35 <SpeedEvil> anrp: QVGA is plenty
Jul 09 17:43:38 <Aria> Nah, just oldschool.
Jul 09 17:43:48 <mmazur> SpeedEvil, meaning there are a bunch of scripts with 'chat' commands inside? :)
Jul 09 17:43:49 <don-o> then i was rather disappointed to see battlestar play back at 1 frame every few seconds.
Jul 09 17:43:51 <anrp> or does it have hw scaling?
Jul 09 17:43:52 <mmazur> ./call.sh 
Jul 09 17:43:53 <SpeedEvil> anrp: even 120*160 may be quite adequate.
Jul 09 17:43:58 <SpeedEvil> On a 2.8" screen
Jul 09 17:44:08 <anrp> that's barely video...
Jul 09 17:44:14 <anrp> but it is small
Jul 09 17:44:18 <happycube> gta02's video chip assuming they get access to the mpeg-4 stuff should have a much better time of things
Jul 09 17:44:19 <SpeedEvil> 2.8" is barely a screen.
Jul 09 17:44:27 <SpeedEvil> 160*120 is about 2.8" on most monitors
Jul 09 17:44:28 <don-o> happycube: indeed.
Jul 09 17:44:37 <happycube> it's 2.8" of 2xx dpi deliciousness though
Jul 09 17:44:44 <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
Jul 09 17:45:06 <happycube> the display's more cpu limited than anything else i bet
Jul 09 17:45:06 <SpeedEvil> I don't especially care, unless they will also supply me eyes that will do 285dpi at 40cm.
Jul 09 17:45:41 <don-o> i want my display even smaller than 2.8" and mounted on my sunglasses.
Jul 09 17:45:49 <SpeedEvil> I can't see a case for needing more than QVGA for video.
Jul 09 17:46:01 <SpeedEvil> Unless you want to hold it at 10cm with a magnifying glass.
Jul 09 17:46:11 <don-o> that would put the "Neo" in the Neo1973 :)
Jul 09 17:46:26 <happycube> sunglasses?  ha.  need neural implants
Jul 09 17:46:41 <don-o> happycube: yeah but in my lifetime would be nice.
Jul 09 17:46:43 <happycube> ok, i really want them
Jul 09 17:46:58 <anrp> so did the video harware scale up the video to full screen size? or was it letterboxe?
Jul 09 17:47:01 <anrp> +d
Jul 09 17:47:08 <happycube> no hw scaler in gta01
Jul 09 17:47:21 <don-o> i wonder how hard it would be for a metalworking shop in my town to make a brushed-aluminum case for the neo.
Jul 09 17:47:22 <anrp> that's what i though :9 oh well
Jul 09 17:47:23 <SpeedEvil> The LCD can also do QVGA mode
Jul 09 17:47:35 <anrp> there's zero specs on those parts though
Jul 09 17:48:23 <aaafg> is there any news on when the first shipments will be shipped?
Jul 09 17:48:30 <Rince> 16th
Jul 09 17:48:33 <galexande> with full vga, if we do our fonts right and so on, it will look *really* slick
Jul 09 17:48:38 <don-o> anrp: once the first units are received, it seems a micrometer is all you'd need 
Jul 09 17:48:44 <aaafg> thanks.
Jul 09 17:49:06 <galexande> i've been using a qvga palmtop for a while and with tiny "truetype" fonts, it looks like crap
Jul 09 17:49:21 <don-o> i groaned a little bit at the post about a ripple-wave effect in the UI. seems like it'd be asking a lot of the cpu
Jul 09 17:49:24 <happycube> yup... the high res will be very noticable
Jul 09 17:49:38 <SpeedEvil> The latest number on the wiki indicates possibly 460 sales.
Jul 09 17:49:48 <mmazur> wiki?
Jul 09 17:49:52 <happycube> ripple-wave really needsprogram-based 3d ;)
Jul 09 17:49:55 <jeddy3> has someone tried qvga video with some sensible codec?
Jul 09 17:50:03 <galexande> don-o, presumably the gta02 would do it easily though
Jul 09 17:50:12 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners mmazur 
Jul 09 17:50:17 <happycube> ok it's less smooth with fixed-function 3d
Jul 09 17:50:17 <happycube> but still doable
Jul 09 17:50:24 <don-o> galexande: yeah but im trying not to get too excited about that after waiting for so long for the P1
Jul 09 17:50:28 <galexande> jeddy, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhzm_hpEbo
Jul 09 17:50:47 <galexande> though i guess that may not be what you mean by sensible codec :)
Jul 09 17:50:50 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't require much CPU - if you're happy to freeze the spot where the ripple occurs.
Jul 09 17:50:51 <ynezz> let's port gtk to ncurses! :p
Jul 09 17:50:58 <jeddy3> galexande, yes and thats VGA, 640x480
Jul 09 17:51:03 <galexande> don-o, yeah, i don't care at all about glitz
Jul 09 17:51:08 <pygi> ynezz, we've already got a telepathy ncurses client :)
Jul 09 17:51:09 <bedboi> ncurses rocks :)
Jul 09 17:51:09 * pygi hides
Jul 09 17:51:14 <pygi> bedboi, yay!
Jul 09 17:51:15 <jeddy3> galexande, or at least not QVGA
Jul 09 17:51:17 <galexande> i just want to hack everything so all the buttons are as big as possible
Jul 09 17:51:23 <SpeedEvil> create a square patch over the ripple, and animate that, then delete the window.
Jul 09 17:51:27 <galexande> and let someone else draw the icons for them
Jul 09 17:51:32 <Aria> ynezz: Already doneish, but it's scary
Jul 09 17:51:33 <bedboi> pygi: i remember my first "GUI" 
Jul 09 17:51:42 <don-o> galexande: i agree. down with the stylus
Jul 09 17:52:01 <galexande> well i'm not the one who decided not to put a stylus holder in the device :)
Jul 09 17:52:11 <galexande> but i lost all my ipaq stylii so whatever
Jul 09 17:52:21 <don-o> galexande: that speaks volumes all by itself
Jul 09 17:52:28 <ScaredyCat> well, imgaine how big it'd have to be for the one they supply
Jul 09 17:52:34 <SpeedEvil> don-o: not really
Jul 09 17:52:45 <SpeedEvil> don-o: the device design started out before OpenMoko
Jul 09 17:52:57 <SpeedEvil> It was not envisioned to be a PDA type thing running linux.
Jul 09 17:53:17 <don-o> galexande: i had a dream last night of the 'slide to unlock' action working on the neo. i wonder how well it can track finger movement as opposed to finger presses.
Jul 09 17:53:20 <pygi> bedboi, hehe :)
Jul 09 17:53:30 <galexande> don-o, just fine
Jul 09 17:53:40 <galexande> though i use my fingernails
Jul 09 17:53:50 <don-o> 'scratch to unlock'? :)
Jul 09 17:54:06 <mmazur> don-o, I'd like to have 'hand gestures' once the accelometers are in.
Jul 09 17:54:07 <anrp> screech..
Jul 09 17:54:14 <mmazur> up, up, up, left, left for answer call
Jul 09 17:54:30 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: naah
Jul 09 17:54:32 <jeddy3> noone tried QVGA (320x240)?, i agree with SpeedEvil that higher than that is not necessary (like in video with BSG)
Jul 09 17:54:34 <don-o> that'd be a weird way to answer a call.
Jul 09 17:54:42 <mmazur> That's the point :)
Jul 09 17:54:56 <galexande> jeddy, software = no :)
Jul 09 17:54:57 <mmazur> AT commands anyone? :)
Jul 09 17:54:58 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: consider the movement of starting with the phone face out in your hand next to your body, and ending up held next to your ear
Jul 09 17:55:03 <alech> Hi, does anyone else have trouble with the openmoko.com mailserver? It apparently came to deliver my order confirmation yesterday evening (around 20:00 UTC), but was greylisted by my mailserver and never came back. Similar thing for autoreplies (RT?) for mails to sales@openmoko.com. No autoreply yet for my mail that was sent from gmail, too ....
Jul 09 17:55:06 <SpeedEvil> mmazur: it's moderately distinctive.
Jul 09 17:55:11 <jeddy3> galexande, video
Jul 09 17:55:14 <tuukkah> do w have better info of the AT commands than here: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM_07.07
Jul 09 17:55:19 <arw> i've a comment
Jul 09 17:55:19 <arw> here http://www.openmoko.com , do not exist link to openmoko.org
Jul 09 17:55:33 <woglinde> tuukkah no
Jul 09 17:55:37 <arw> i think that must be a link
Jul 09 17:55:41 <galexande> jeddy, my point is, if it's not hardware, kernel driver, or dialer app, then it simply hasn't been touched yet
Jul 09 17:55:54 <anrp> gsm07.07 is the AT command spec for GSM TE
Jul 09 17:55:57 <mmazur> Does it have iptables?
Jul 09 17:56:00 <tuukkah> woglinde, so at least i made a start :-)
Jul 09 17:56:05 <mmazur> I basicaly need it as a gprs modem?
Jul 09 17:56:06 <galexande> mmazur, you could build a kernel with iptables, or load the modules
Jul 09 17:56:16 <rillian> there, I may have ordered one
Jul 09 17:56:18 <mmazur> Strike the question mark.
Jul 09 17:56:20 <alech> can someone confirm they are using RT on sales@openmoko.com?
Jul 09 17:56:29 <arw> anyone knows , why dooes not exist?
Jul 09 17:56:33 <arw> :(
Jul 09 17:56:39 <jeddy3> galexande, at least one person are obviously running mplayer 
Jul 09 17:56:39 <tuukkah> andred_, did i mischaracterize on the page?
Jul 09 17:56:48 <galexande> alech, <roh> Jason1 its just our normal RT ticketnumber. given out for every mail. so it also increments when spam enters a unrelated queue
Jul 09 17:56:48 <anrp> also gsm07.05 has some commands
Jul 09 17:56:49 <tuukkah> anrp, did i mischaracterize on the page?
Jul 09 17:56:55 <anrp> 07.10 is the multiplexing bits
Jul 09 17:56:57 <galexande> (from last night)
Jul 09 17:57:05 <woglinde> alech can be, the p1 free developer phones were organized via rt too
Jul 09 17:57:16 <galexande> jeddy, i have a pda with a similar processor and qvga, and it plays low-quality mpegs no problemo
Jul 09 17:57:29 <anrp> but since it's just a standard gsm module, it implements 07.??
Jul 09 17:57:31 <galexande> but they may be uh, sixteethVGA
Jul 09 17:57:56 <rillian> arw: there's a like from the about::resources page. probably they didn't want to advertise it more prominently because openmoko.com is about selling the hardware
Jul 09 17:58:07 <rillian> arw: s/like/link/
Jul 09 17:58:22 <alech> ok, so I should probably have gotten a mail back on my gmail account ...?
Jul 09 17:58:46 <rillian> hmm. I didn't get to pick a colour :(
Jul 09 17:58:52 <anrp> noone did
Jul 09 17:59:03 <arw> probably they did not...
Jul 09 17:59:04 <arw> thak you rillian
Jul 09 17:59:30 <anrp> er, to rillian
Jul 09 17:59:43 <rillian> anrp: well, at least I have company :)
Jul 09 17:59:56 <rillian> maybe we organize swaps at conferences :)
Jul 09 18:00:39 <anrp> over 3/4 of the buying interest list was black/silver, i think i know what color most of the production will be (...assuming they looked at that list)
Jul 09 18:00:58 <SpeedEvil> Cases are almost free.
Jul 09 18:01:00 <galexande> i really think teh orange will look better
Jul 09 18:01:06 <anrp> they are
Jul 09 18:01:11 <SpeedEvil> It's the moulds that cost.
Jul 09 18:01:14 <anrp> if they're part of a run...
Jul 09 18:01:22 <SpeedEvil> I wouldn't be surprised if they've made a run of 10K.
Jul 09 18:01:31 <tuukkah> anrp, i started to think i should make GSM 07.07 redirect to GSM and list the important documents there
Jul 09 18:01:36 <SpeedEvil> As they've said that the case won't change soon.
Jul 09 18:02:05 <anrp> gsm07.07 does refer to a specific document
Jul 09 18:03:30 <tuukkah> anrp, yeah but does it make sense to have a separate page for it in the wiki?
Jul 09 18:03:38 <anrp> probably not
Jul 09 18:03:50 <tuukkah> my bad, fixing now
Jul 09 18:04:32 <juri_> now, switch cell carriers to AT&T...
Jul 09 18:04:39 <anrp> or t-mobile
Jul 09 18:04:58 <happycube> you can get a prepaid sim if you don't want to give up your current phone of course
Jul 09 18:18:07 <tuukkah> something like this: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM
Jul 09 18:18:43 <Elrond> "Can't open file: 'logincookies.MYI'. (errno: 12) at /usr/share/bugzilla/lib/globals.pl line 284." hehe. ;o)
Jul 09 18:18:56 <roh> Elrond yes.. its broken
Jul 09 18:20:09 <guerby> I finally asked sales@openmoko.com about my order, still no confirmation email/number after nearly 24h
Jul 09 18:20:29 <Elrond> roh - Who broke it?
Jul 09 18:20:41 <Elrond> ... or better: Why did he break it? :-)
Jul 09 18:21:08 <roh> Elrond dunno what exactly. propably openvz
Jul 09 18:23:22 <ds3> anyone noticed wiki.openmoko.org is messed up
Jul 09 18:23:25 <ds3> getting errors
Jul 09 18:23:35 <ds3> OpenMoko has a problemSorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.(Can't contact the database server: Lost connection to MySQL server during query (localhost))
Jul 09 18:23:41 <roh> thats also the same error
Jul 09 18:24:46 <Elrond> roh - Well, the timing is very "good" ;o)
Jul 09 18:24:46 <roh> some other virtual machine or the host is eating away memory and the admin with the logins is somewhere over baghdad
Jul 09 18:25:01 <roh> Elrond i couldnt image better
Jul 09 18:25:31 <mmazur> Baghdad?
Jul 09 18:25:42 <ynezz> on mission...
Jul 09 18:25:51 <roh> transcontinental flight europe taiwan
Jul 09 18:26:19 <Elrond> Oh, and there's exactly one admin, right? ;-)
Jul 09 18:26:32 <Elrond> (you better say "I'm nda'd on this part" now. ;o)) )
Jul 09 18:27:14 <clode> Greetings, is there any country restriction on the order for the phones?:-)
Jul 09 18:27:14 <aloril> clode: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 18:27:18 <Elrond> .oO(I should better shut up. It's not helping anyone.)
Jul 09 18:27:25 <SpeedEvil> clode: probably not iran
Jul 09 18:27:28 <nobody96> moin
Jul 09 18:27:28 <roh> Elrond the others are either asleep or not reachable somehow.. yeah.. mr. bad timing is also on our paylist it seems
Jul 09 18:27:31 * don-o laughs
Jul 09 18:27:33 <SpeedEvil> clode: or Cuba
Jul 09 18:27:38 <clode> SpeedEvil: hah. ;p
Jul 09 18:27:45 <aloril> it seems that greylisting == no AutoReply mail (ie. it tries only once) ?
Jul 09 18:27:50 <SpeedEvil> clode: Being shipped from the US
Jul 09 18:27:58 <clode> Sweet :)
Jul 09 18:28:43 <don-o> fremont, california. basically from san francisco.
Jul 09 18:28:43 <clode> When I tried to put in an order I got a Server error, is there any technical issues at the moment?
Jul 09 18:28:45 <Tronic> Then the system is b0rked. However, greylisting is also b0rked. And in English you don't put a space before a question mark.
Jul 09 18:29:19 <Elrond> clode - Might be possible, there are other technical problems currently.
Jul 09 18:29:31 <clode> Alright, thanks for the information.
Jul 09 18:29:33 <pjz> wiki is slammed today
Jul 09 18:29:41 <don-o> its moko-mania!
Jul 09 18:30:26 <aloril> how many tickets now?
Jul 09 18:30:39 <aloril> (order tickets)
Jul 09 18:30:47 * don-o gets freaked out when the bot starts asking questions
Jul 09 18:31:00 * clode nods at don-o
Jul 09 18:31:22 <|R> robots are people too!
Jul 09 18:31:58 <aloril> guess: order script tries to mail directly, not trough daemon?
Jul 09 18:32:16 <roh> don-o the bot ate too much soylent gree
Jul 09 18:32:18 <roh> n
Jul 09 18:32:21 <aloril> don-o: hehe, wrong classification: s/robot/cyborg/ ;-)
Jul 09 18:32:37 <don-o> aloril: oh okay. i thought command data was pretty cool :)
Jul 09 18:32:48 <don-o> s/command/commander/(star trek)
Jul 09 18:33:53 <SpeedEvil> aloril: wiki indiated 400-500 ish sold.
Jul 09 18:34:06 <__alurdun> I'm having issues with ordering as well. Site's gimped.
Jul 09 18:34:14 <don-o> amazingly quick sellout
Jul 09 18:34:22 <galexande> alurdun, accurate diagnosis.
Jul 09 18:34:25 <ScaredyCat> did I just see Tronic critisize someone for putting a space before a question mark, right after using the word b0rked, with a zero instead of an o?
Jul 09 18:34:50 <don-o> ScaredyCat: he also started a sentance with the work And
Jul 09 18:34:54 <bkruse> yay openmoko
Jul 09 18:34:54 <don-o> s/work/word/
Jul 09 18:34:54 <apt> don-o meant: ScaredyCat: he also started a sentance with the word And
Jul 09 18:35:25 <__alurdun> Anyone know how many units are available. Are they gonna be sold out before I can get through?
Jul 09 18:35:40 <aloril> SpeedEvil: in that case orders/[[P1_Owners]] ratio is clearly > 10x
Jul 09 18:35:48 <ScaredyCat> the grammar police aren't what they used to be ;)
Jul 09 18:35:52 <__alurdun> I'm anxious. My hacker future depends on getting my hands on one of these things (sad).
Jul 09 18:36:10 <jedix> you could always wait for october
Jul 09 18:36:10 <aloril> __alurdun: 1000 units, but parts are ready for additional manufacturing
Jul 09 18:36:31 <jedix> I want wifi, so I'm waiting
Jul 09 18:36:35 <ScaredyCat> if your hacker future depended on it you should have been here last night
Jul 09 18:36:41 <aloril> probably will add some delay, dunno how much (week? 2 weeks?) there is a week delay in shipping anyway ;-)
Jul 09 18:36:48 <galexande> yeah you're just not hardcore enough!!
Jul 09 18:36:53 <ScaredyCat> pussy
Jul 09 18:36:55 <jedix> dunno if I want wiki $300 bad though
Jul 09 18:37:15 <bkruse> are the units really shipping now? or is it backordered to no end :/
Jul 09 18:37:17 <aloril> hehe, it was announced it would be available 2007-07-09 and it was quite early in Taiwan time
Jul 09 18:37:17 <jedix> s/wiki/wifi/
Jul 09 18:37:18 <apt> jedix meant: dunno if I want wifi $300 bad though
Jul 09 18:37:22 <bkruse> is there a "limited quantity"? 
Jul 09 18:37:26 <galexande> bkruse, shipping should begin around jul 16th
Jul 09 18:37:32 <bkruse> galexande: great
Jul 09 18:37:32 <galexande> bkruse, for the first 900 or so
Jul 09 18:37:35 <__alurdun> ScaredyCat: My hacker future depends on getting enough sleep, as well.
Jul 09 18:37:37 <aloril> bkruse: they are in China waiting for custom clearance, see topic
Jul 09 18:37:40 <don-o> bkruse: everything is of limited quantity, except maybe hydrogen atoms :)
Jul 09 18:37:43 <bkruse> galexande: you think the first 900 are already ordered?
Jul 09 18:37:44 <aloril> or read whole mail at:
Jul 09 18:37:45 <aloril> counter
Jul 09 18:37:45 <aloril> (last update 2007-07-08 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in a week, 2 days 17:22:09 (9.724±3.0 days) (1726;246)
Jul 09 18:37:51 <galexande> bkruse, probably not, but it could possibly be close
Jul 09 18:37:54 <bkruse> don-o: this is true...
Jul 09 18:37:59 <bkruse> galexande: ahh! thank you :]
Jul 09 18:38:01 <ScaredyCat> real hackers don't sleep, they timeslice
Jul 09 18:38:21 <bkruse> Anyone from the asterisk and openmoko here? or anyone interested?
Jul 09 18:38:31 <__alurdun> Yoiu're questioning my cred, aren't you ;)
Jul 09 18:38:52 <ScaredyCat> no, just your dedication
Jul 09 18:39:07 <ScaredyCat> bkruse: they are 2 different projects
Jul 09 18:39:56 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: I do not sleep either, partly because of redbull.
Jul 09 18:40:09 <ScaredyCat> do you have wings?
Jul 09 18:40:13 <bkruse> No :[
Jul 09 18:40:17 <ScaredyCat> :/
Jul 09 18:40:29 <bkruse> but @ 11pm tonight, wings are on
Jul 09 18:40:33 <ScaredyCat> if you did you could fly about delivering openmoko's
Jul 09 18:40:43 <bkruse> and I would without questioning a second
Jul 09 18:40:47 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: 2 different projects? getting it running and then a "porting" project?
Jul 09 18:41:03 <ScaredyCat> asterisk and openmoko
Jul 09 18:41:37 <bkruse> yes, correct
Jul 09 18:42:06 <Tronic> ScaredyCat: The word "b0rked" has a zero in it. I have never heard of the word "borked".
Jul 09 18:42:08 <ScaredyCat> "<bkruse> Anyone from the asterisk and openmoko here? "
Jul 09 18:42:23 <ScaredyCat> neither are real words.
Jul 09 18:42:33 <bkruse> ahh, good point
Jul 09 18:42:36 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: I am from asterisk.
Jul 09 18:42:50 <bkruse> I meant the asterisk+openmoko "mini project" 
Jul 09 18:42:55 <bkruse> to get asterisk and openmoko to work with each other (obviously asterisk on openmoko) and I want to help :D
Jul 09 18:42:59 <ScaredyCat> ahh k
Jul 09 18:43:19 <ScaredyCat> ok, well... the first question ...
Jul 09 18:43:51 <ScaredyCat> why would you want asterisk on openmoko... I can understand an iax2 phone, but asterisk?
Jul 09 18:44:16 <ScaredyCat> I mean, other than "because you can"
Jul 09 18:44:21 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: thats what I said.
Jul 09 18:44:31 <__alurdun> Is there an additional shipping cost? I can't get to a checkout page to see a total. I need to check currency conversions for the total (I'm in Canada).
Jul 09 18:44:31 <bkruse> obviously, you do not want to run your pbx from a 266mghz phone
Jul 09 18:44:39 <ScaredyCat> lol, no
Jul 09 18:44:41 <bkruse> EVEN THOUGh, you COULD probably route maybe 4 calls :D
Jul 09 18:44:56 <bkruse> but ya, im thinking more of some cool clients........thats what i will be working on anyways...
Jul 09 18:44:56 <galexande> alurdun, all international shipping is outrageous, like $80
Jul 09 18:44:59 <galexande> i think even canada
Jul 09 18:45:04 <galexande> it ships from california via ups
Jul 09 18:45:09 <koen|inverness> people run asterisk on 133MHz NAS devices
Jul 09 18:45:11 <SpeedEvil> UPS is silly.
Jul 09 18:45:13 <bkruse> I think the "devs" from that project are just going to sh configure; make;make install 
Jul 09 18:45:26 <mmazur> bkruse, asterisk on a wifi router and openmoko on a wifi-enabled phone maybe?
Jul 09 18:45:27 <bkruse> koen|inverness: I am well aware, and for a small envirnment, it might be acceptable....maybe.....
Jul 09 18:45:34 <bkruse> mmazur: very true
Jul 09 18:45:41 <tunecel> we run asterisk on a wrap board 
Jul 09 18:45:47 <bkruse> openwrt has it packaged as one of their packages now, make it easily installable
Jul 09 18:45:53 <bkruse> tunecel: right, I have done that too.
Jul 09 18:45:57 <koen|inverness> I don't get the point of running asterisk on the neo either, but some people want it
Jul 09 18:46:10 <koen|inverness> 'bitbake asterisk' is all you need
Jul 09 18:46:15 <ScaredyCat> nas boxes are generally running of mains too...
Jul 09 18:46:17 <bkruse> koen|inverness: I think it is more of a "I got asterisk on the neo"
Jul 09 18:46:17 <tunecel> runs fine
Jul 09 18:46:30 <__alurdun> galexande: Ouch. Plus duty, no doubt.
Jul 09 18:46:31 <bkruse> not a production envirnment
Jul 09 18:46:32 <tunecel> 10 calls with codec change
Jul 09 18:46:43 <bkruse> but asterisk has PLENTY of features than could be heavily integrated to work with the neo closely
Jul 09 18:47:02 <galexande> something tells me my decision to run mokomakefile on an nfs mount was a mistake
Jul 09 18:47:03 <tunecel> www.asterina.at --> nano
Jul 09 18:47:06 <bkruse> like bluetooth presence, gastman, manager control of asterisk, the asterisk GUI (just a browser...) etc etc
Jul 09 18:47:11 <bkruse> tunecel: yep
Jul 09 18:47:12 <galexande> since even "do_populate_staging" is taking forever
Jul 09 18:47:16 <daMaestro> neo1973 as an asterisk client over wifi +1000
Jul 09 18:47:26 <daMaestro> and i really, really mean +1000
Jul 09 18:47:43 <ScaredyCat> bluetooth presence doesn;t need * on the phone...
Jul 09 18:47:59 <tunecel> damaestro:or a gsm-gateway
Jul 09 18:48:00 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: right, im talking STRICTLY about making it work well with asterisk...
Jul 09 18:48:11 <bkruse> nothing is asterisk specific, but everything can be fully compatibile and easy to setup....
Jul 09 18:48:12 <daMaestro> tunecel, do you have to license the gsm band?
Jul 09 18:48:16 <ScaredyCat> I'd rather build an iax client for the neo
Jul 09 18:48:16 <bkruse> even some automatic setup between asterisk.
Jul 09 18:48:22 <bkruse> http://www.digium.com/en/products/hardware/appliance.php
Jul 09 18:48:27 <tunecel> nope
Jul 09 18:48:30 <daMaestro> tunecel, cool
Jul 09 18:48:31 <ScaredyCat> to bypass all that sip/nat nastyness
Jul 09 18:48:36 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: thats what im doing :D
Jul 09 18:48:53 <bkruse> that whole asterisk/openmoko dev call early was to state that :P
Jul 09 18:48:56 <koen|inverness> the only thing I'd run asterisk on is a blackfin board
Jul 09 18:49:02 <bkruse> koen|inverness: http://www.digium.com/en/products/hardware/appliance.php
Jul 09 18:49:03 <ScaredyCat> ok, so you don;t need asterisk, just the iaxclient lib on sourceforge
Jul 09 18:49:04 <tunecel> scaredcat:we are building one java iax client
Jul 09 18:49:05 <koen|inverness> and only to test oslec :)
Jul 09 18:49:12 <malsyned> When the wifi 1973 comes out, what will it take to get seamless VoIP call transfer like that new T-Mobile phone has?
Jul 09 18:49:12 <aloril> GTA02 (P2) will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Jul 09 18:49:20 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: right! I am not saying put asterisk on there, but simply make it fully compatible with asterisk...
Jul 09 18:49:28 <ScaredyCat> http://iaxclient.sourceforge.net/
Jul 09 18:49:41 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: yes. want to help? :D
Jul 09 18:49:42 <aloril> Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ )
Jul 09 18:49:46 <ScaredyCat> it's basically a ready built library...
Jul 09 18:49:52 <bkruse> malsyned: right, thats what I want. Seemless integration
Jul 09 18:49:58 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: right, and a great library at that.
Jul 09 18:50:14 <bkruse> we COULD do it from scratch, but for a proof of concept, do it with iaxclient
Jul 09 18:50:16 <ScaredyCat> bkruse: I'm interested... but very busy... If I can spare the time I will
Jul 09 18:50:29 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: I am very busy too
Jul 09 18:50:33 <orospakr> I think integrating Telepathy with the Neo is a much more useful endeavour.
Jul 09 18:50:36 <bkruse> I am hoping I can take work time to work on it, maybe...
Jul 09 18:50:37 <ScaredyCat> well, we could probably cut out a lot of the librar...
Jul 09 18:50:54 <koen|inverness> orospakr: lets make an asterisk backend for telepathy :)
Jul 09 18:50:57 <malsyned> bkruse: asterisk is the quickest path to seamless GSM->WiFi call transfer?
Jul 09 18:51:03 <minime> malsyned, shouldn't be to hard
Jul 09 18:51:13 <bkruse> no, it wont
Jul 09 18:51:14 <orospakr> koen|inverness: if you mean an IAX connection manager, it's in the works.
Jul 09 18:51:17 <bkruse> and thats why I am doing it :P
Jul 09 18:51:23 <bkruse> orospakr: explain?
Jul 09 18:51:29 <minime> malsyned, after all its only checking for available internet ;)
Jul 09 18:51:40 <orospakr> bkruse: explain what, in particular?
Jul 09 18:51:47 <bkruse> "iax connection manager"?
Jul 09 18:51:59 <orospakr> ah, OK.
Jul 09 18:52:04 <koen|inverness> bkruse: http://www.gnome.org/mobile/
Jul 09 18:52:05 <malsyned> minime: there's nothing tricky about keeping the call up and running while transferring it?  I would think you'd need cooperation from your GSM provider
Jul 09 18:52:17 <orospakr> malsyned: yes, you would.
Jul 09 18:52:24 <bkruse> koen|inverness: right, it might be as easy as porting an already existing softphone like ekiga, which is awesome.
Jul 09 18:52:35 <bkruse> But I do want to write one specifically for openmoko
Jul 09 18:52:39 <koen|inverness> ekiga sucks in numeroous ways
Jul 09 18:52:47 <orospakr> bkruse: in telepathy, things that plug it into protocols are called "connection managers"
Jul 09 18:52:54 <koen|inverness> the most obvious is depending on p(w)(t)lib
Jul 09 18:53:05 <orospakr> iax is hard one because it puts voice and signalling in the stream, so it needs a demuxer
Jul 09 18:53:15 <bkruse> I realize that, trust me :]
Jul 09 18:53:23 <bkruse> mark did it that way for a reason, nat/firewalls
Jul 09 18:53:48 <bkruse> iax2 also supports text messaging, and video chat.
Jul 09 18:53:49 <malsyned> bkruse: so you're working on a wifi VoIP client for openmoko, which will interact well with an asterix VoIP system?
Jul 09 18:53:50 <ScaredyCat> iax is much better for roaming for that very reason
Jul 09 18:53:50 <orospakr> and it doesn't fit *perfectly* with Telepathy, because it assumes that you have a separate RTP stream that gets sent to the Telepathy Stream Engine service.
Jul 09 18:53:53 <koen|inverness> the other is piss poor integration with anything !ekiga out there for addressbook, remote operation, etc
Jul 09 18:53:53 <orospakr> but that's getting fixed.
Jul 09 18:53:58 <bkruse> malsyned: correct.
Jul 09 18:54:00 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: exactly
Jul 09 18:54:17 <bkruse> orospakr: well, voice/audio frames are sent on the same line, along with dtmf
Jul 09 18:54:23 <bkruse> same port*
Jul 09 18:54:32 <malsyned> bkruse: but it won't be able to keep a call live while transferring it from GSM to VoIP unless there is cooperation from the cell provider?
Jul 09 18:54:47 <bkruse> malsyned: I am not SO sure about that...we will see.
Jul 09 18:54:58 <ScaredyCat> there's no way..
Jul 09 18:54:59 <bkruse> that will have to be some trial and error testing
Jul 09 18:55:03 <orospakr> bkruse: yeah, I know why IAX is the way it is. It's great from a user perspective.
Jul 09 18:55:11 <bkruse> orospakr: correct.
Jul 09 18:55:18 <bkruse> iax2 CAN build up packets, to burst when the connection comes back
Jul 09 18:55:23 <malsyned> bkruse: how are you developing that without a wifi 1973?  or are you an OpenMoko employee with kick ass prototypes on your desk?
Jul 09 18:55:24 <bkruse> but that would only last so long....
Jul 09 18:55:38 <galexande> bt is fast enough for compressed audio
Jul 09 18:55:42 <bkruse> malsyned: haha, no, i plan to develope, rather
Jul 09 18:55:48 <bkruse> galexande: right, which it will be
Jul 09 18:55:51 <galexande> i mean gsm is like 56kbits right?
Jul 09 18:55:52 <koen|inverness> galexande: and uses far less power
Jul 09 18:55:55 <ScaredyCat> the only people who can do that are the providers... simply because all the rtp/gsm traffic passesthrough them
Jul 09 18:56:05 <bkruse> well we wouldnt be using ulaw as a codec obviously....
Jul 09 18:56:33 <koen|inverness> i'd go for speex, since that's optimized for just about any CPU (or DSP) you can think off
Jul 09 18:56:36 <bkruse> ScaredyCat: kind of? I dont know, maybe we could strike a deal? maybe we could just do mass packet buffering, which is possible, and will seem like a delay in the voice, but nothing will get lost
Jul 09 18:56:46 <bkruse> koen|inverness: good point, which is a pretty easy implementation also...
Jul 09 18:56:46 <ScaredyCat> malsyned: usb host cable, powererd hub, wifi dongle?
Jul 09 18:56:51 <orospakr> what I want to see on the OpenMoko UI is a common interface for making/receiving voice calls, be it by VOIP or GSM.  Which, IMHO, is where I think Telepathy should come in.
Jul 09 18:57:03 <Ophelia> does the OM really has translucent windows yet?
Jul 09 18:57:13 <koen|inverness> orospakr: will you attend guadec?
Jul 09 18:57:30 <bkruse> orospakr: exactly, you are on the same page I am
Jul 09 18:57:36 * koen|inverness will need some help with locking Robot101 and mickey_away in one room
Jul 09 18:57:47 <malsyned> ScaredyCat: oh yeah.  open platform.  dur.  the idea of a cell phone that can take advantage of arbitrary PC peripherals is going to take some getting used to.  I haven't fully processed the implications, obviously.
Jul 09 18:57:47 <orospakr> koen|inverness: hadn't planned on it.
Jul 09 18:58:02 <ScaredyCat> :)
Jul 09 18:58:06 <Ophelia> VoIP?
Jul 09 18:58:09 <Ophelia> that would be nice :-)
Jul 09 18:58:29 <orospakr> koen|inverness: I'm not actually a Telepathy hacker, but I hang out in their IRC channel, and I've been using Telepathy for one of our projects.
Jul 09 18:58:35 <orospakr> (our being my company)
Jul 09 18:58:49 <koen|inverness> orospakr: I know
Jul 09 18:59:03 <orospakr> koen|inverness: heh, your nick *is* familiar ;)
Jul 09 18:59:32 <Kensan> bkruse: have you considered minisip?
Jul 09 18:59:33 <ScaredyCat> he knew you were going to say that...
Jul 09 18:59:49 <bkruse> Kensan: no, i want to do iax first....
Jul 09 19:00:19 <ScaredyCat> bkruse: it is a good point though, build it so you could plug in iax,sip etc.
Jul 09 19:00:47 <ScaredyCat> or at least iax and sip.. h323 can f&*k right off
Jul 09 19:01:19 <koen|inverness> isn't minisip quite dead?
Jul 09 19:01:26 <koen|inverness> and minisplat as well?
Jul 09 19:01:49 <orospakr> I'm of the opinion that OpenMoko should hire Collabora to do this stuff.
Jul 09 19:02:04 <Kensan> koen|inverness: no, minisip is still active. minisplat on the other hand might be.
Jul 09 19:02:12 <koen|inverness> orospakr: I've been hinting at that for months
Jul 09 19:02:29 <bkruse> h323? EWW
Jul 09 19:02:35 <bkruse> koen|inverness: minisip is like libiax isnt it?
Jul 09 19:02:37 <koen|inverness> Kensan: johan said something different when I last spoke to him (~march)
Jul 09 19:02:38 <bkruse> old and barely works?
Jul 09 19:02:46 <bkruse> oh, right, minisplat
Jul 09 19:02:54 <bkruse> yes, so, basically, start with iax2, then do the sip integration
Jul 09 19:02:59 <bkruse> (iax2 is going to be SO much easier, btw)
Jul 09 19:03:11 <koen|inverness> I tried to resurrect minisip in OE, but they removed all tarballs and their svn is broken
Jul 09 19:03:13 <bkruse> at least for me, because I know both of them pretty well, but iax2 more extensively
Jul 09 19:03:47 <Kensan> koen|inverness: there's still traffic on the dev-list. I have built minisip from svn a couple weeks ago.
Jul 09 19:03:48 <orospakr> koen|inverness: maybe you can do apt-get source in debian and rescue the code that way.
Jul 09 19:04:22 <koen|inverness> orospakr: too much work for an inactive project
Jul 09 19:04:27 <jgm> Telepathy could be a really useful backend for all types of data (voice calls, SMS, 'traditional' IM etc.).  I think the trick is going to be building out a suitable frontend so that it's all available without feeling like you're looking at a different interface for each
Jul 09 19:04:33 <koen|inverness> I'd rather fix empathy in OE :)
Jul 09 19:04:47 <orospakr> jgm: totally. :)
Jul 09 19:05:25 <ewanm89_laptop> Mokomakefile problem: n I last spoke to him (~march)
Jul 09 19:05:25 <ewanm89_laptop> 20:02:43  bkruse old and barely works?
Jul 09 19:05:25 <ewanm89_laptop> 20:02:51  bkruse oh, right, minisplat
Jul 09 19:05:47 <ewanm89_laptop> Mokomakefile problem: http://pastebin.ca/611012
Jul 09 19:05:54 <bkruse> ewanm89_laptop: ya, my apologies
Jul 09 19:06:03 <jgm> orospakr, that's what I'm planning on playing with when my Neos arrive
Jul 09 19:06:35 <ewanm89_laptop> bkruse: I think it was my mistake of using copy on select with a touchpad.
Jul 09 19:07:16 <Kensan> koen|inverness: Just did a checkout from the minisip-repos: works fine for me.
Jul 09 19:07:29 <orospakr> jgm: :D
Jul 09 19:08:03 <koen|inverness> Kensan: everything crosscompiles using OE as well?
Jul 09 19:08:04 <alphaone> FYI: For anyone in the US there is now also a t-shirt shop at http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=128333
Jul 09 19:08:46 <ScaredyCat> should you buy official merhandisE?
Jul 09 19:09:26 <Kensan> koen|inverness: I was just checking if the svn repos was broken since you mentioned that.
Jul 09 19:09:31 <bkruse> so ya, maybe I should make a project for this on openmoko
Jul 09 19:10:05 <ScaredyCat> yes... 
Jul 09 19:11:18 <alphaone> ScaredyCat: It's not really official. And I'll take it down as soon as OpenMoko starts selling their own stuff (which probably will be much cheaper anyway)
Jul 09 19:11:37 <alphaone> ScaredyCat: But I did get permission to use the logo
Jul 09 19:11:48 <ScaredyCat> fair enough...
Jul 09 19:11:57 <Aria> Man, no girly tees?
Jul 09 19:12:15 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hardware_Developer/it]] [[Debug_Board/it]] [[Wiggler/it]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] [[Debug_Board]] [[Talk:Neo1973_and_Windows]] [[GSM_07.07]] [[GSM]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Gsmd]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:Gsmd]]
Jul 09 19:12:18 <ScaredyCat> the only girls you see? ;)
Jul 09 19:13:10 <alphaone> Aria: Is there demand for girly tees?
Jul 09 19:13:18 <Aria> I demand a girly tee.
Jul 09 19:13:19 <Aria> Er.
Jul 09 19:13:21 * Aria grins.
Jul 09 19:14:29 <alphaone> Aria: Okay, I'm occupied atm, but I'll get to it. What/where do you want the logo?
Jul 09 19:14:57 <__alurdun> Some progress on the ordering front. The site returns a 500 error now, at least, rather than just doing nothing.
Jul 09 19:15:05 <ScaredyCat> Fewd!!!
Jul 09 19:15:29 <Aria> alphaone: I'm half teasing at the moment, since I'm out of cash for the thing, but I'd put it dead center. Y'know, breast-center.
Jul 09 19:15:54 <alphaone> Aria: okay
Jul 09 19:20:38 <bkruse> Did I hear something about openmoko shirts? apperal? 
Jul 09 19:21:04 <Aria> http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=128333
Jul 09 19:21:11 <aloril> sounds ordering page is pretty /.:ed
Jul 09 19:21:19 <bkruse> nice.
Jul 09 19:21:34 <bkruse> I want all of them!
Jul 09 19:21:41 <bkruse> we should get one with the order of a 450 dev kit :P
Jul 09 19:22:01 <ynezz> true :)
Jul 09 19:22:09 <Fatal> meh, what's the difference between WORLDWIDE_EXPIDITED and SAVER ?
Jul 09 19:23:21 <aloril> hihi, kinda of current but still outdated: http://www.techworld.com/mobility/news/index.cfm?newsID=9417&pagtype=samechan
Jul 09 19:23:27 <PBeck> hi
Jul 09 19:24:19 <aloril> hi PBeck 
Jul 09 19:24:39 <PBeck> hey aloril 
Jul 09 19:24:43 <tuukkah> Fatal, see ups web pages
Jul 09 19:26:01 <Fatal> tuukkah: thanks
Jul 09 19:29:04 <aloril> wiki works with https://
Jul 09 19:30:10 <juri_> so, sold out yet? :)
Jul 09 19:32:14 <Fatal> gneh, got to love getting a blank page after submitting CC information :P
Jul 09 19:33:34 <procto> whoa
Jul 09 19:33:49 <procto> was the channel boingboing'd or was it like this before?
Jul 09 19:33:50 <aloril> procto: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 19:34:05 <orospakr> procto: hey!
Jul 09 19:34:07 <Fatal> procto: slashdotted and others
Jul 09 19:34:10 <procto> heya orospakr !
Jul 09 19:34:13 <orospakr> procto: fancy see you in here ;)
Jul 09 19:34:17 <orospakr> s/see/seeing/
Jul 09 19:34:19 <apt> orospakr meant: procto: fancy seeing you in here ;)
Jul 09 19:34:24 <aloril> record yesterday was 318 nicks
Jul 09 19:34:25 <orospakr> hurr hurr. nice bot. :)
Jul 09 19:34:31 <procto> orospakr: I thought you were an OLPC goon :>
Jul 09 19:34:39 <orospakr> procto: a little.
Jul 09 19:34:52 <aloril> https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ works better now
Jul 09 19:35:56 <__alurdun> Just figured out that my site problems were because of an incorrectly-formatted province code.
Jul 09 19:36:30 <aloril> (and changed trigger links to https for now)
Jul 09 19:36:44 <procto> orospakr: I was planning on either a nokia n800 or a nokia e90 in the next couple of months
Jul 09 19:36:56 <nobody96> re
Jul 09 19:36:57 <orospakr> procto: I would suggest the Neo, actually. :D
Jul 09 19:37:13 <zecke|work> mickey_away: you have to take the survey :)
Jul 09 19:37:48 <procto> orospakr: yeah, that's why I'm here
Jul 09 19:37:51 <procto> it's less developed, sure
Jul 09 19:37:57 <procto> but it looks to be better for my needs
Jul 09 19:38:40 <procto> I'm going to start developing stuff for it
Jul 09 19:38:43 <procto> and get GTA02
Jul 09 19:38:48 * aloril wonders whether it will be sold out tomorrow
Jul 09 19:38:48 <procto> because wifi is a hard requirement for me
Jul 09 19:39:08 <aloril> well.. 'sold out' because they have parts ready to manufacture more
Jul 09 19:39:25 <procto> looks like GTA02 will also have accelerometers
Jul 09 19:39:32 <procto> which is really good, since I've been developing stuff for accelerometers anyways
Jul 09 19:39:48 <procto> free samples ftw
Jul 09 19:39:56 <SpeedEvil> There may be a kit available to plug into your P1 to get accels.
Jul 09 19:40:01 <procto> I believe I got these ones from transmeta
Jul 09 19:40:15 <procto> ah, no
Jul 09 19:40:17 <SpeedEvil> Well - not really a kit.
Jul 09 19:40:20 <procto> one of these others companies :>
Jul 09 19:40:22 <SpeedEvil> More just plugin.
Jul 09 19:42:27 <orospakr> I'm having to wait a few days while I wait for money to come in -- I sure hope I don't end up waiting a lot time for the next batch of gta01s to get built.
Jul 09 19:42:35 <orospakr> s/lot/a lot/
Jul 09 19:42:42 <orospakr> er.
Jul 09 19:42:43 <jedix> hey orospakr
Jul 09 19:42:49 <orospakr> jedix: hey!
Jul 09 19:42:52 <orospakr> s/lot/lot of/
Jul 09 19:42:56 <jedix> long time no see :)
Jul 09 19:42:57 <apt> orospakr meant: I'm having to wait a few days while I wait for money to come in -- I sure hope I don't end up waiting a a lot time for the next batch of gta01s to get built.
Jul 09 19:43:09 <galexande> hey, what about a bluetooth gamepad
Jul 09 19:43:18 <orospakr> jedix: definitely! you coming to Linux in the Wild?
Jul 09 19:43:34 <jedix> orospakr: probably not, I've been quite busy lately
Jul 09 19:43:40 <orospakr> harsh.
Jul 09 19:43:51 <jedix> I don't mind it too much
Jul 09 19:44:03 <orospakr> jedix: you
Jul 09 19:44:04 <jedix> I've gotten to travel a bit
Jul 09 19:44:11 <orospakr> 're working for clusterfs now, right?
Jul 09 19:44:15 <jedix> yeah
Jul 09 19:44:41 <jedix> how about you?
Jul 09 19:45:30 <juri_> hmm. it seems the ps3 controllers have been made to work with linux, wirelessly.
Jul 09 19:45:48 <orospakr> I'm working for a company called Infoglobe, a Free Software-only consulting firm, basically.
Jul 09 19:45:53 <jedix> juri_: yeah, something about init over usb first though
Jul 09 19:45:53 <orospakr> I'm quite happy.
Jul 09 19:46:33 <jedix> juri_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2rM5Zy5T5Y
Jul 09 19:46:53 <juri_> jedix: i don't support youtube. no flash here.
Jul 09 19:47:07 <jedix> oh
Jul 09 19:47:39 <juri_> hmm. but pairing is required.
Jul 09 19:47:59 <jedix> thry this one then: http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/29/sixaxis-linux-robot-were-in/
Jul 09 19:50:45 <pjz> Neo shpping just showed up on linuxdevices.com
Jul 09 19:52:22 <pjz> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7355980470.html
Jul 09 19:52:36 <procto> so, what sort of development commitment gives ya a free device?
Jul 09 19:52:37 <procto> :>
Jul 09 19:55:29 <galexande> procto, visa will advance you the cash
Jul 09 19:59:09 <procto> galexande: must it always get down to the vulgarity of monetary transactions?
Jul 09 19:59:11 <procto> oh well :>
Jul 09 19:59:15 <procto> I'll wait for GTA02, then
Jul 09 19:59:24 <procto> and in the meantime make pretty softwarez
Jul 09 20:02:17 <_sev> hi guys
Jul 09 20:02:24 <bkruse> hello!
Jul 09 20:02:46 <__alurdun> Is there a warranty on the Neo? Am I about to spend $400 on something that can only be used as a paperweight if a solder is badly done?
Jul 09 20:03:09 <woglinde> pay 450
Jul 09 20:03:13 <woglinde> than you have jtag
Jul 09 20:03:26 <_sev> looking at your Wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Shipping_Notes I wonder, whom should I talk about as to make an experiment. I want to have Neo shipped to Ukraine
Jul 09 20:03:31 <astinus> __alurdun: Well you're about to spend $400 on something that, as yet, has almost no user software :P
Jul 09 20:03:47 <woglinde> sev isnt that the same as to russia?
Jul 09 20:04:28 <woglinde> sev perhaps that a lot more parcel get "missed"
Jul 09 20:04:30 <_sev> woglinde: no, since I got Nokia770 successfully
Jul 09 20:05:08 <woglinde> _sev ;)
Jul 09 20:05:28 <woglinde> _sev ups isnt deliviring to ukraine?
Jul 09 20:05:33 <_sev> which way are they ship? FedEx or usual mail?
Jul 09 20:05:33 <aloril> _sev: See https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 20:05:38 <tuukkah> umm, isn't Shipping Notes for the previous version of the phone, and before the shop was launched?
Jul 09 20:05:42 <woglinde> _sev UPS
Jul 09 20:05:43 <_sev> woglinde: UPS? fine. they work here
Jul 09 20:06:03 <don-o> the linuxdevices story wrong on 3 major points
Jul 09 20:06:59 <don-o> the phones havent been 'available to developers since march', its AGPS is not an 'additional similarity with the iPhone', and OpenMoko is not 'in the process of spinning out from parent company FIC'.
Jul 09 20:07:35 <_sev> any reason why aloril bot provides HTTPS instead of plain HTTP? SSL version doesn't work now
Jul 09 20:07:35 <astinus> don-o: I think they were referring to the Phase 0 stuff shipped to 30-40 people
Jul 09 20:08:10 <don-o> astinus: yeah i think you're right but he makes it sound like they were being sold on a website
Jul 09 20:08:40 <woglinde> p0 and p1 phones
Jul 09 20:08:57 <Basheri> if it only would say base developers
Jul 09 20:10:35 <don-o> does the base kit come with that pelican case? that looks like it would eat up the extra $150 by itself
Jul 09 20:10:57 <don-o> s/base kit/developer kit/
Jul 09 20:10:58 <apt> don-o meant: does the developer kit come with that pelican case? that looks like it would eat up the extra $150 by itself
Jul 09 20:12:47 <_sev> woglinde: still. Is there a person whom I can talk about it, or just go ahead and use the order form?
Jul 09 20:13:11 <woglinde> _sev use the orderform when it is avaible again
Jul 09 20:13:57 <_sev> what do you mean available again? It's up there now. Or you mean that the gadget is out of stock?
Jul 09 20:14:31 <woglinde> sev the website had/have some problems
Jul 09 20:15:04 <_sev> ah, that. Well, for me it was just Wiki which had (and still has) problems
Jul 09 20:21:53 <pjz> don-o: apparently so
Jul 09 20:21:55 <tuukkah> don-o, what's happening between fic and openmoko if not spin-off?
Jul 09 20:22:29 <don-o> tuukkah: is there something i missed? got a url?
Jul 09 20:23:13 <tuukkah> i got that impression from the announcement
Jul 09 20:24:16 <tuukkah> "And OpenMoko -- the project will officially become OpenMoko -- the company."
Jul 09 20:24:51 <tuukkah> "Now that OpenMoko is officially a company inside the FIC Group"
Jul 09 20:25:38 <don-o> that doesnt sound like a spinoff to me
Jul 09 20:26:00 <koen|inverness> openmoko inc sounds more like via than like htc
Jul 09 20:26:03 <don-o> certainly a reorganization
Jul 09 20:26:08 <koen|inverness> (in relation fo FIC)
Jul 09 20:26:34 <zecke|work> bbl
Jul 09 20:27:40 <tuukkah> don-o, well, i'd think spin-off and spin-out can be almost any reorganization where a part of a company becomes a new company
Jul 09 20:30:28 <tuukkah> (even if the new company remains 100% owned by the parent company and retains close ties to it - but i may be wrong)
Jul 09 21:05:45 <FuzzyCat> Stephmw[away]: just fyi ...
Jul 09 21:06:21 <FuzzyCat> if you use ccache, remember to clear it if you switch between arm and x86 :)
Jul 09 21:07:16 <don-o> heehee
Jul 09 21:07:55 <FuzzyCat> it suddenly clicked... why it wouldn't compile :)
Jul 09 21:11:32 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Hardware/it]] [[User:Gualti]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2/it]] [[Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2]] [[Talk:Main_Page/it]] [[User:Milo]] [[Main_Page/it]] [[OpenMoko]] [[OpenMoko/it]] and other changes
Jul 09 21:12:13 <pygi> wiki is back, yay :D
Jul 09 21:13:12 <juri_> hmm. still no confirmation mail.
Jul 09 21:13:35 <juri_> this is the complaint channel, right? no-one develops here, no sirree.. ;)
Jul 09 21:20:09 <xkr47> juri_, do you know if you have greylist filtering on your mail server?
Jul 09 21:20:34 <xkr47> I had on mine and the confirmation got lost..
Jul 09 21:22:50 <Mandarino> Somebody saw planet.openmoko.org ?
Jul 09 21:24:10 <juri_> xkr: theres spam filtering, but i don't know why it would have blocked openmoko...
Jul 09 21:24:34 <xkr47> did you check the logs to see if there was any mail incoming ?
Jul 09 21:25:17 <xkr47> Mandarino, sure :)
Jul 09 21:26:08 <xkr47> Mandarino, there's a link to it from www.openmoko.org, the developer portal site
Jul 09 21:26:27 <juri_> yay. one week into a three week long project, i'm 5 days behind, and my deadline has been pushed up a week.
Jul 09 21:27:02 <xkr47> sounds like 5 weeks to go
Jul 09 21:27:09 <xkr47> good luck juri_
Jul 09 21:29:45 <zedstar> anyone know if the community mailing list down or has my gmail account gone tits up?
Jul 09 21:30:48 * SpeedEvil has had no mail for a bit
Jul 09 21:30:53 <SpeedEvil> (from community)
Jul 09 21:31:02 <slider_> no mails since 10 hours or so
Jul 09 21:31:10 <zedstar> ah similar for me
Jul 09 21:31:13 <xkr47> same here
Jul 09 21:31:29 <SpeedEvil> Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:36:00 +0000
Jul 09 21:31:32 <carrar> do need need email help?
Jul 09 21:31:33 <SpeedEvil> last one
Jul 09 21:31:34 <carrar> they
Jul 09 21:31:35 <xkr47> exactly!
Jul 09 21:31:57 <xkr47> carrar, send an email and ask *grin*
Jul 09 21:32:04 <carrar> heh
Jul 09 21:32:11 <carrar> I'm thinking they might take it the wrong way
Jul 09 21:32:26 <xkr47> I think the whole openmoko team is sleeping for 24 hours.. I assume they've been working day and night for some weeks now
Jul 09 21:32:38 <SpeedEvil> A little list... (of people not to get Neos)
Jul 09 21:32:44 <xkr47> at least LaForge quit irc yesterday right after the announcement with the quit message "Zzz.."
Jul 09 21:33:16 <xkr47> maybe the list was flooded and crashed
Jul 09 21:33:48 <xkr47> anyone know if you can extend your already-placed order by a phone or two?
Jul 09 21:34:15 <xkr47> if you don't, then I guess I'll reply to my confirmation mail and ask..
Jul 09 21:34:15 <zedstar> so anybody who bought a neo and got a confirmation get another one saying order was processed?
Jul 09 21:34:32 <xkr47> not yet
Jul 09 21:34:32 <carrar> I'm still waiting for my 1st email from yesterdays order
Jul 09 21:34:59 <carrar> or anyone from sales@ to reply
Jul 09 21:35:01 <xkr47> carrar, you can ask roh for help.. he can check if your order came through (if you ask politely)
Jul 09 21:35:01 <SpeedEvil> xkr47: I'd go through the order process again, and say 'if possible, can this be added to my earlier order'
Jul 09 21:35:22 <carrar> I tried this morning but I think he left
Jul 09 21:36:03 <zedstar> i wanted to send another email to ask for a black/silver but thought i would hold off as they are probably snowed under
Jul 09 21:36:07 <xkr47> well he's at least on irc now.. dunno
Jul 09 21:36:24 <xkr47> zedstar, :)
Jul 09 21:36:44 <zedstar> right now ill take any colour :)
Jul 09 21:36:48 <xkr47> would be funny if those who didn't say get a green one :D
Jul 09 21:37:03 <zedstar> pink!
Jul 09 21:37:05 <carrar> forest greem would rock
Jul 09 21:37:08 <carrar> green
Jul 09 21:37:21 <xkr47> I hope there'll be more options later for cheap price
Jul 09 21:37:29 <xkr47> maybe you can get a set of 10 colors for $20 or smth :)
Jul 09 21:37:33 <SpeedEvil> np: BlackBox Recorder - British Racing Green.
Jul 09 21:38:26 <zedstar> i wonder if the order id has any significance to the number ordered
Jul 09 21:39:06 <zedstar> if so i was near 2000 ;)
Jul 09 21:39:18 <SpeedEvil> It started at 1820
Jul 09 21:39:28 <SpeedEvil> so 2000 was about order number 180 at least
Jul 09 21:39:28 <zedstar> phew lol
Jul 09 21:40:01 <summatusmentis> order id started at 1820? why/
Jul 09 21:40:04 <summatusmentis> testing?
Jul 09 21:40:11 <SpeedEvil> REused old counter.
Jul 09 21:40:26 <summatusmentis> I see
Jul 09 21:40:39 <daMaestro> and, why would you *not* have a 1973 order number within the first 1000 devices sold?
Jul 09 21:40:44 <daMaestro> it just makes sense ;-)
Jul 09 21:41:01 <summatusmentis> lol
Jul 09 21:41:09 <flingpoo> What's the current state of the software?
Jul 09 21:41:17 <SpeedEvil> Rudimentary.
Jul 09 21:41:20 <daMaestro> hopefully it is a "sign from the unknown" that order number 1973 is the "divine one"
Jul 09 21:41:20 <daMaestro> lol
Jul 09 21:41:22 <SpeedEvil> It's not a user phone at the moment.
Jul 09 21:41:26 <don-o> flingpoo: steaming and moist :)
Jul 09 21:41:38 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: it's barely even a phone, right?
Jul 09 21:41:52 <SpeedEvil> It's an small X-windows device which happens to be shaped like a phone, and have some rudimentary phone software on it.
Jul 09 21:41:59 <carrar> heh
Jul 09 21:42:00 <don-o> summatusmentis: thats what 500 people are about to find out :)
Jul 09 21:42:07 <zedstar> lol
Jul 09 21:42:08 <carrar> can it call out and receive calls?
Jul 09 21:42:16 <SpeedEvil> carrar: yes. Mostly.
Jul 09 21:42:18 <carrar> SOLD!
Jul 09 21:42:26 <SpeedEvil> carrar: but no SMS, ...
Jul 09 21:42:38 <ewon> is anyone reading sales@openmoko.com?
Jul 09 21:42:40 <carrar> My Razer works .... mostly
Jul 09 21:42:41 <Mandarino> SpeedEvil:  !!!!! ;)
Jul 09 21:42:50 <Suvarov[work]> Has anyone been able to display youtube movies on a Neo1973?
Jul 09 21:42:50 <aloril> Suvarov[work]: See https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 21:42:52 <tuukkah> who needs sms but i would need gprs
Jul 09 21:43:15 <xkr47> SpeedEvil, can I have that sentence on a t-shirt :)
Jul 09 21:43:24 <carrar> will it support sms?
Jul 09 21:43:30 <xkr47> (the "It's a small.." =)
Jul 09 21:43:35 <carrar> could write some app to do that
Jul 09 21:43:36 <zedstar> gpsd running be nice also
Jul 09 21:43:52 <roh> have fun. if the webserver burns down now.. send me a sms.. i'm having a drink
Jul 09 21:43:58 <Suvarov[work]> aloril: many thanks! /me goes off to follow the link
Jul 09 21:44:06 <xkr47> roh, cheers!!
Jul 09 21:44:36 <summatusmentis> Suvarov[work]: as in, videos from youtube.com? doubtful
Jul 09 21:44:45 <xkr47> if I could send you money, I'd give a free round to all moko guys at the bar :)
Jul 09 21:44:46 <woglinde> ybye roh
Jul 09 21:44:47 <CM> roh: Great work! :)
Jul 09 21:45:00 <xkr47> or maybe 20 ppl at most :)
Jul 09 21:45:31 <Suvarov[work]> summatusmentis: actually, I'm more interested in other Flash apps, but youtube is a popular request in the gnash project
Jul 09 21:46:04 <summatusmentis> Suvarov[work]: at this point, the neo barely is considered a phone... there's  dialler, and gps
Jul 09 21:46:15 <summatusmentis> might be something else minimal, but pretty unlikely
Jul 09 21:46:53 <Suvarov[work]> summatusmentis: strangely enough, I'm just looking for a handheld, wireless device that can display X (or whatever) with a fair-to-decent battery life
Jul 09 21:47:22 <Suvarov[work]> The Neo1973 has a good form factor and display
Jul 09 21:47:23 <xkr47> neo is like buying your soul back from the devil.. you lose the "you can have anything" deal but you are free
Jul 09 21:47:26 <xkr47> :)
Jul 09 21:47:51 <xkr47> I could have that on a t-shirt too :)
Jul 09 21:48:05 <flingpoo> How does one type into the Neo?  USB keyboard or is there already a touch-screen keyboard?
Jul 09 21:48:24 <pygi> fletch, second :)
Jul 09 21:48:37 <xkr47> flingpoo, http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-02-screenshots.html
Jul 09 21:51:16 <happycube> speaking of it sounds like iphone is using fuzzy logic - comparing the distances between keys in querty against a dictionary
Jul 09 21:51:38 <happycube> too bad that's probably patented up the wazoo ;)
Jul 09 21:51:57 <sixfeet> n8
Jul 09 21:52:05 <thomasg_gpm> lol, trolltech fires in the direction of openmoko :) http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2007/07/09/meanwhile-back-at-the-ranch/
Jul 09 21:52:09 <xkr47> n8 sixfeet
Jul 09 21:52:12 <flingpoo> Is the Neo powerful enough to self-compile or is it mandatory to work with another machine?
Jul 09 21:52:21 <sixfeet> ^^
Jul 09 21:52:24 <woglinde> flingoo you can use ahe bluetooth keyboard too
Jul 09 21:52:47 <xkr47> giving enough swap, any linux can build itself ?-DD
Jul 09 21:52:49 <woglinde> flingpoo you dont want compile at the moko
Jul 09 21:52:53 <flingpoo> woglinde: I don't trust wireless keyboards. =)
Jul 09 21:54:09 <happycube> there's nothing really blocking a qtopia neo1973 build is there? ;)
Jul 09 21:54:09 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, interesting 
Jul 09 21:54:12 <flingpoo> It'd be nice to compile and debug the phone program during the daily commute... "Why won't you dial?!?!"
Jul 09 21:54:22 <thomasg_gpm> pygi, indeed it is :)
Jul 09 21:54:26 <xkr47> flingpoo, :)
Jul 09 21:54:41 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, never found that greenphone too interesting tho
Jul 09 21:54:46 <happycube> ... unless of course there were non-free bits.
Jul 09 21:54:58 <thomasg_gpm> pygi, but also the pricing. partly proprietary sdk, partly proprietary hpone platform, completely closed hardware. $900
Jul 09 21:55:05 <woglinde> pygi the greenphone is nice
Jul 09 21:55:18 <ljp> that wasnt trolltech, that was just a trolltech engineer
Jul 09 21:55:23 <woglinde> problem is the 2.4 kernel and closed modules
Jul 09 21:55:34 <pygi> woglinde, might be, however was never interested too much in it, so can't speak really
Jul 09 21:55:52 <ljp> woglinde: you do kernel hacking, then?
Jul 09 21:56:05 <thomasg_gpm> ljp, an official trolltech engineer on a official trolltech page 
Jul 09 21:56:11 <don-o> does anyone know what version of openmoko (if any) has been flashed to the shipping devices?
Jul 09 21:56:17 <don-o> seems like the repo would be tagged for that
Jul 09 21:56:19 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, isn't it $695 USD?
Jul 09 21:56:32 <woglinde> lorn sorry no
Jul 09 21:56:34 <thomasg_gpm> pygi, on the site I could only find $890
Jul 09 21:56:40 <ljp> one voice in manu doesnt speak for the whole company
Jul 09 21:56:40 <thomasg_gpm> and $199 for the sdk only
Jul 09 21:56:45 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/greenphone_pricing
Jul 09 21:57:11 <woglinde> hm blog is blog
Jul 09 21:57:19 <woglinde> dont know if there is a disclaimer
Jul 09 21:57:27 <thomasg_gpm> pygi, ok, my fault, just looked here: http://www.shoptrolltech.com/do/page/SDKLight
Jul 09 21:57:51 <pygi> woglinde, it's nevertheless interesting to see what others think
Jul 09 21:57:53 <ljp> TT was also giving away greenphones to develoeprs
Jul 09 21:58:17 <gnu_> wiki.openmoko.org is down ("Can't contact the database server").
Jul 09 21:58:31 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, that's ofcourse a device with community SDK
Jul 09 21:58:47 <don-o> flingpoo: (re: neo self-compiling) awesome idea but seeing as how my core duo machine takes 8+ hours to download/build openmoko, it doesnt seem practical
Jul 09 21:59:00 <thomasg_gpm> pygi, yes, like I said, my fault
Jul 09 21:59:08 <thomasg_gpm> but anyway - it's expensive.
Jul 09 21:59:15 <thomasg_gpm> and: it's proprietary
Jul 09 21:59:41 <thomasg_gpm> so yet another phone with a partly opensourced plattform
Jul 09 22:00:33 <webjames> ubuntu is doing a mobile platform, but not as in mobile phone, like an Internet tablet 
Jul 09 22:00:33 <ljp> even the 1973 has closed parts to it
Jul 09 22:01:22 <Kensan> ljp, I assume you did that blog post. Can you give some insights on the greenphone and how it compares to the neo1973?
Jul 09 22:01:36 <cjb> greenphone isn't open at all, is it?
Jul 09 22:01:44 <ljp> qtopia is open source
Jul 09 22:01:53 <Suvarov[work]> webjames: have you a link to ubuntu's web tablet?
Jul 09 22:01:54 <ljp> i dont have a neo yet
Jul 09 22:02:04 <woglinde> cjb kernel modules and some apps are closed
Jul 09 22:02:07 <ljp> gp has more flash and less ram
Jul 09 22:02:13 <ljp> err vice versa
Jul 09 22:02:36 <ljp> yes, gp got stuck with some closed kernel modules
Jul 09 22:02:37 <webjames> Suvarov[work], https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded
Jul 09 22:02:52 <Suvarov[work]> webjames: thank you kindly!
Jul 09 22:03:04 <ynezz> ljp: competition is always good :)
Jul 09 22:03:08 <webjames> Suvarov[work], that has links, it'll be released with the coming 7.10 gutsy gibbon
Jul 09 22:03:27 <ljp> who says neo is competition?
Jul 09 22:03:28 <webjames> ynezz, two different fields really
Jul 09 22:03:40 <ynezz> openmoko
Jul 09 22:04:16 <ljp> neo is a consumer device, gp is a developer reference board
Jul 09 22:04:27 <ynezz> i'm talking about moko/qtopia
Jul 09 22:04:33 <mmazur> Neo hopefully will be a consumer device :)
Jul 09 22:04:54 <ynezz> i personaly don't like c++, so i don't use qt
Jul 09 22:05:23 <summatusmentis> does anyone know if telcos will be selling the neo?
Jul 09 22:05:38 <webjames[bed]> night
Jul 09 22:05:49 <summatusmentis> goodnight webjames[bed] 
Jul 09 22:05:55 <woglinde> nite webjames
Jul 09 22:06:10 <ynezz> summatusmentis: who knows, we still don't have p1 confirmation orders :)
Jul 09 22:06:19 <webjames[bed]> :) night
Jul 09 22:06:22 <summatusmentis> ynezz: oh really?
Jul 09 22:06:22 <procto> what's the progress with python? no infoz on the wiki before it went down, the projects site claims it's 0%, but I see some samples on openmoko planet
Jul 09 22:06:39 <woglinde> procto what pyhton?
Jul 09 22:06:44 <woglinde> pyhton in general
Jul 09 22:06:49 <pygi> woglinde, he probably menat python :)
Jul 09 22:06:50 <ynezz> bindings
Jul 09 22:06:51 <woglinde> or python bindings?
Jul 09 22:07:05 <thomasg_gpm> ljp, gp has less ram and more flash, that was correct. but the only closed part in the neo is the gps (that will change) and the gsm-core (what won't be allowed to change)
Jul 09 22:07:08 <procto> hmm, what's the difference?
Jul 09 22:07:08 <woglinde> zecke hacked a little bit
Jul 09 22:07:35 <woglinde> python is python in generla the interpreted language
Jul 09 22:07:54 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, will the gps module be changed for gta02 or later on?
Jul 09 22:08:00 <woglinde> python bindings for openmoko is that you cann control parts of openmoko via python
Jul 09 22:08:02 * pygi is sorry for bugging too much
Jul 09 22:08:05 * summatusmentis is waiting for GTA0(whatever is after 2) phone device, as he can't get off of his cdma contract for 1.5 years
Jul 09 22:08:17 <procto> woglinde: ok, so I actually knew that :> but I was a bit confused, I'm clearer now, thanks
Jul 09 22:08:23 <ynezz> ljp: why you personally dislike LGPL?
Jul 09 22:08:31 <procto> what I was wondering is if I can write a .py file and have it run in openmoko
Jul 09 22:08:40 <procto> i.e. is the interpreter ported
Jul 09 22:08:57 <procto> otherwise, would bindings work?
Jul 09 22:09:10 <woglinde> prcoto oe compiles python nicely
Jul 09 22:09:22 <zecke> woglinde: si?
Jul 09 22:10:06 <stefan|paris> bon soir
Jul 09 22:10:13 <woglinde> zecke procto wants to know everything about pyhton on the neo
Jul 09 22:10:31 <pygi> ljp, and the term "the first open source Linux phone" you used for OpenMoko would not be correct. It's not about being open source, but being free
Jul 09 22:10:47 <procto> ah, oe, I haven't read much about the toolchain since the wiki's barely working, but I'm reading it now
Jul 09 22:11:13 <pygi> procto, yea, down for a long time now :-/
Jul 09 22:11:26 <procto> I was able to read much of the wiki earlier today
Jul 09 22:11:28 <procto> it was pretty snappy
Jul 09 22:11:32 <happycube> i'm in the wiki right now
Jul 09 22:11:41 <procto> so am I, I just have to try about 2-3 times for each page
Jul 09 22:12:11 <woglinde> pygi in the term of open source ljp is right
Jul 09 22:12:46 <pygi> woglinde, perhaps, but nobody said openmoko phone is the first open source phone
Jul 09 22:13:05 <SpeedEvil> It pretty much is - aimed at mass market IMO.
Jul 09 22:13:17 <pygi> SpeedEvil, well, it's the first free phone
Jul 09 22:13:26 <woglinde> pygi sorry but some articles do
Jul 09 22:13:36 <pygi> woglinde, o well, articles
Jul 09 22:13:38 <SpeedEvil> Open source + free is pretty much required IMO to be useful.
Jul 09 22:13:51 <SpeedEvil> free without open source is substantially less useful.
Jul 09 22:15:04 <procto> zecke: so atm oe compiled python into elf which runs on openmoko?
Jul 09 22:15:09 <thomasg_gpm> pygi, afaik it is planned to replace the hammerhead with a gps with free drivers
Jul 09 22:15:15 <ninHer> hi all
Jul 09 22:15:34 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, hopefully for gta02 :)
Jul 09 22:15:36 <zecke> procto: python is interpreted, unless you use PyPy or similiar technologies
Jul 09 22:15:36 <pygi> just reading on it
Jul 09 22:15:48 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm: I've never heard anyone in the core team say that.
Jul 09 22:16:00 <procto> zecke: that's what I thought, but woglinde just said "<  woglinde> prcoto oe compiles python nicely"
Jul 09 22:16:00 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm: there are plans to write an open-source driver for the hammerhead.
Jul 09 22:16:03 <zecke> procto: python works on OpenMoko just like any other platform running the CPython implementation
Jul 09 22:16:15 <procto> ah
Jul 09 22:16:19 <thomasg_gpm> SpeedEvil, maybe I'm wrong, or maybe the guys I heard was wrong :)
Jul 09 22:16:24 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm: and the hammerhead has cost and possible performance advantages over competitors.
Jul 09 22:16:25 <zecke> procto: compiles the CPython implementation nicely
Jul 09 22:16:26 <procto> zecke: so the interpreter actually runs?
Jul 09 22:16:26 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm
Jul 09 22:16:34 <thomasg_gpm> but at least it's planned to have free drivers for the gps
Jul 09 22:16:51 <SpeedEvil> : it's something I've heard from many sources, but none that seem connected with actually deciding that.
Jul 09 22:16:57 <zecke> procto: sure
Jul 09 22:17:05 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm: and anyway - it doesn't matter.
Jul 09 22:17:12 <thomasg_gpm> SpeedEvil, might be. maybe the hammerhead is a real good chip, but free drivers would be nice.
Jul 09 22:17:14 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm: it can run in a chroot
Jul 09 22:17:22 <SpeedEvil> thomasg_gpm: as an unpriviledged user
Jul 09 22:17:27 <xkr47> oh no, the wiki is down
Jul 09 22:17:30 <thomasg_gpm> everything is possible :)
Jul 09 22:17:30 <pygi> thomasg_gpm, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS#Q:_The_chip_in_the_Neo1973_is_a_Global_Locate_AGPS._Anybody_know_what_type.3F_Hammerhead_maybe.3F
Jul 09 22:17:51 <woglinde> oh no
Jul 09 22:17:54 <procto> zecke: so the projects.openmoko.org site is out of date? since it states that python-opemnoko is still in planning stage
Jul 09 22:17:56 <woglinde> 2 bad decisions
Jul 09 22:18:02 <xkr47> ok it works again.. temporary overload..
Jul 09 22:18:04 <woglinde> first apache and now mysql
Jul 09 22:20:36 <zecke> procto: well openmoko-bindings has 100% coverage of openmokoui, ~80% of gsmd, and a pending patch to mokojournal to be bindable
Jul 09 22:20:41 <andylockran> can we get the creator of the mokomakefile to specify bash in his scripts... this dash problem has made me feel rather silly...
Jul 09 22:21:09 <zecke> procto: most of the C examples for openmoko have python examples as well, and there is an example stylus app written in python using the bindings
Jul 09 22:21:43 <CoreDump|home> hi
Jul 09 22:22:07 <ajmitch> zecke: very nice
Jul 09 22:22:17 <xkr47> yeah nice
Jul 09 22:22:24 <Hadaka> are the lists down?
Jul 09 22:22:33 <SpeedEvil> prolly
Jul 09 22:22:43 <SpeedEvil> last community 11 hours ago here
Jul 09 22:22:57 <Hadaka> rite, thanks
Jul 09 22:23:08 <Hadaka> well then, a speculation to pass the time
Jul 09 22:24:10 <Hadaka> when I ordered my phone, I got this in the return mail: "Your order has been assigned an ID of [rt.internal.openmoko.org #2XXX]."
Jul 09 22:24:20 <Hadaka> (the X's are just to hide the exact number, just in case it matters)
Jul 09 22:24:21 <SpeedEvil> It started at 1820
Jul 09 22:24:36 <Hadaka> ahha! okay, well that was my question :)
Jul 09 22:24:54 <hads> Welcome to #psycics :)
Jul 09 22:25:10 <SpeedEvil> It's probable that there have been at least n-1820 orders.
Jul 09 22:25:15 <Hadaka> okay, mine starts 23XX, so that means probably 500 phones sold
Jul 09 22:25:17 <SpeedEvil> But, maybe more phones.
Jul 09 22:25:51 <SpeedEvil> hadaka: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners
Jul 09 22:26:06 <procto> zecke: yup, I saw your post, and looked at the code. it looks really fucking sweet, if you don't mind my saying it :>
Jul 09 22:26:54 <Hadaka> SpeedEvil: thanks
Jul 09 22:30:05 <[lankester]> it's normal that I got no confirmation
Jul 09 22:30:06 <[lankester]> ?
Jul 09 22:31:18 <woglinde> lankester server is overloaded I guess
Jul 09 22:33:59 <[lankester]> ok thx :)
Jul 09 22:34:01 <flingpoo> Do the GPS and GSM chips just show up as serial devices magically, or is a separate driver needed to access them?
Jul 09 22:34:40 <Elrond> flingpoo - They're connected to real rs232.
Jul 09 22:35:01 <Elrond> flingpoo - the SoC really has 3 rs232 connections.
Jul 09 22:37:04 <Psi_> as in +12 -12?
Jul 09 22:37:12 <Elrond> No.
Jul 09 22:37:43 <Elrond> (0V, 3.3V) I think. I'm not 100% sure. We would need to check the CPU manual.
Jul 09 22:38:11 <Psi_> simple to convert though with a MAX232 :)
Jul 09 22:38:21 <Elrond> Exactly.
Jul 09 22:38:38 <Elrond> I don't know, if any max232 are in there.
Jul 09 22:39:02 <Elrond> You could try to locate some on koen's pics. :)
Jul 09 22:39:44 <SpeedEvil> I wish that the GPS was also on the SPI bus...
Jul 09 22:40:16 <alphaone> For communication with the gsm and gps a max 232 is not necessary. 
Jul 09 22:40:46 <SpeedEvil> It is - for the GSM - if you're not using a debug board.
Jul 09 22:41:21 <SpeedEvil> But, you can do that in software.
Jul 09 22:41:45 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - What would be the benefit of gps-on-spi?
Jul 09 22:42:14 <acidjazz_> so whats w/ no data on this? its gprs? not even edge? 
Jul 09 22:42:25 <intarwebz> acidjazz_: you got one?
Jul 09 22:42:27 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: I'm contemplating adding a PIC, some RAM on SPI, and a couple of accelerometers.
Jul 09 22:42:42 <acidjazz_> no i just read about how theres not even edge or anything on it
Jul 09 22:43:06 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yeah... but what would you win with gps-on-spi?
Jul 09 22:43:07 <acidjazz_> how can this thing have AGPS but not edge or 3g?
Jul 09 22:43:13 <astinus> . . .
Jul 09 22:43:18 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: this would do stuff like the normal accelerometer stuff, as well as buffering audio while in slow mode, and if GPS was available on SPI, it could be logged with the CPU off.
Jul 09 22:43:23 <astinus> i think that was adequately explained, "Keeping the costs down"
Jul 09 22:43:26 <intarwebz> acidjazz_: yah....open source stuff is always slower hardware wise because the software genius of the community is always sapped out and applied to things like the iphone
Jul 09 22:43:31 <SpeedEvil> acidjazz_: because it can.
Jul 09 22:43:39 <woglinde> aidjazz because of the cellphonemodul?
Jul 09 22:43:45 <happycube> bit late to ask but will debug board v2 work with gta02?  
Jul 09 22:43:51 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - The gps needs to be fed constantly with requests.
Jul 09 22:43:52 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jul 09 22:44:07 <happycube> thought so
Jul 09 22:44:07 <acidjazz_> im talking about internet bandwidth
Jul 09 22:44:10 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: yes - a PIC GPS driver would need to be implemented :)
Jul 09 22:44:24 <acidjazz_> internet over GPRS is ancient, edge is a little faster and 3g is nice, so is HSDPA, etc.
Jul 09 22:44:36 <astinus> acidjazz_: it's almost impossible to find totally 'open' 3G or EDGE bits, and they are hella expensive
Jul 09 22:44:40 <arachnid> That or a GPS that actually does its own work instead of making the CPU do it ;)
Jul 09 22:44:43 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Well, the main cpu can do gps in slow mode, I think.
Jul 09 22:44:46 <acidjazz_> astinus: oh i see what you're saying
Jul 09 22:44:52 <astinus> acidjazz_: most people don't want a $1000 phone
Jul 09 22:45:10 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: true - but if you've got a micro that uses 1mW sitting there doing nothing...
Jul 09 22:45:11 <acidjazz_> well they were able to get GPS in there and have it be $300
Jul 09 22:45:26 <acidjazz_> would edge or 3g cost another $700 ?
Jul 09 22:45:41 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yeah. So you consider "cpu off, pic doing jobs".
Jul 09 22:45:45 <SpeedEvil> acidjazz_: it's unfortunately not cheap.
Jul 09 22:45:51 <woglinde> acidjazz most people dont even know what edge ist
Jul 09 22:46:22 <acidjazz_> i have yet to get a reaonsable excuse minus astinus' 'open'
Jul 09 22:46:44 <acidjazz_> astinus: how is it 'open' its gsm we gotta sign up w/ a phone company and cingular, at&t and soon tmobile all have 3g and all have edge.
Jul 09 22:46:56 <unknown_lamer> are edge parts really that expensive?  My last roommate had a cheapo 'free' phone that one of the slower edge classes (200some kbit/s)
Jul 09 22:47:03 <acidjazz_> not as expensive as AGPS
Jul 09 22:47:12 <acidjazz_> thats for sure
Jul 09 22:47:56 <SpeedEvil> acidjazz_: also - GSM is worldwide. All the faster alternatives (apart from edge) are local markets only.
Jul 09 22:48:11 <acidjazz_> SpeedEvil: i konw im mainly tlaking about the US
Jul 09 22:49:00 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: pretty much.
Jul 09 22:50:35 <anrp> i thought japan was using utms compatible w-cdma nowadays (at least softbank)?
Jul 09 22:51:02 <SpeedEvil> acidjazz_: they are more expensive, less available.
Jul 09 22:51:03 <anrp> er make that umts
Jul 09 22:51:07 <Elrond> acidjazz_ - Well, it's $300, because of a $50 discount. So really $350.
Jul 09 22:51:32 <SpeedEvil> acidjazz_: 3G phones in many cases use the same chipset for the phone and the modem
Jul 09 22:51:32 <SpeedEvil> using it as a software modem.
Jul 09 22:51:32 <SpeedEvil> This may actually be illegal to open-source in some countries.
Jul 09 22:51:54 <poffy> Is OpenMoko wiki down for anyone else?
Jul 09 22:52:14 <woglinde> poffy no try again
Jul 09 22:52:14 <anrp> in a lot of countries...
Jul 09 22:52:31 <woglinde> poffy the database connection seems not to be optimal
Jul 09 22:52:33 <anrp> you can do it for 2.5g too, however, standalone serial connected gsm modules are pretty common 
Jul 09 22:52:45 <anrp> 3g is newer -> more integrated
Jul 09 22:52:46 <poffy> Hm.
Jul 09 22:53:07 <poffy> Is there a page other than the wiki that has OpenMoko documentation (structures/classes/objects)?
Jul 09 22:53:08 <anrp> waah
Jul 09 22:53:11 <woglinde> lol
Jul 09 22:53:20 <woglinde> what a resplit
Jul 09 22:53:38 <summatusmentis> Welcomd back all!
Jul 09 22:54:02 <ozamosi> idarwin: there *points*
Jul 09 22:54:15 <summatusmentis> :-D
Jul 09 22:54:42 <summatusmentis> I love surviving netsplits... it makes me feel all powerful
Jul 09 22:54:46 <idarwin> I hadda ask :-)
Jul 09 22:55:02 <woglinde> urgs
Jul 09 22:55:02 <summatusmentis> WOO!!!!
Jul 09 22:55:09 <woglinde> its holiday in germany
Jul 09 22:55:15 <woglinde> days
Jul 09 22:55:17 <cesarb> wtf
Jul 09 22:55:28 <woglinde> kids playing with the ircnets
Jul 09 22:55:32 <ph|ber> y0! is the 1973 out??
Jul 09 22:55:51 <Jason1> Philippe: yup
Jul 09 22:55:55 <Jason1> ph| yup
Jul 09 22:55:59 <summatusmentis> ph|ber: first off, yes, dev version
Jul 09 22:56:10 <anrp> ...
Jul 09 22:56:20 <cesarb> woah
Jul 09 22:56:20 <summatusmentis> lol, welcome back again!
Jul 09 22:56:22 <mmazur> wtf?
Jul 09 22:56:29 <ph|ber> so it is not production?
Jul 09 22:56:43 <summatusmentis> ph|ber: not 'user ready'
Jul 09 22:57:07 <Viko> Friends!
Jul 09 22:57:10 <cesarb> btw (offtopic), does someone know how to disable /away on konversation? just "/away" isn't working
Jul 09 22:57:22 <summatusmentis> cesarb: try /back
Jul 09 22:57:36 <cesarb> summatusmentis: thanks...
Jul 09 22:57:56 <summatusmentis> '...' did I misunderstand what you were asking?
Jul 09 22:58:59 <mikini> Hi, anyone else having build errors in current uboot repository? : error: #endif without #if
Jul 09 22:59:00 <aloril> mikini: See https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 22:59:04 <weez> summatusmentis: i am assuming if you fall victim to a net split you get some kinda feedback as that effect?
Jul 09 22:59:20 <summatusmentis> weez: ?
Jul 09 22:59:34 <SpeedEvil> weez: your client should inform you
Jul 09 22:59:48 <weez> i would of thought so
Jul 09 22:59:56 <weez> I see netsplits all the time
Jul 09 23:00:01 <summatusmentis> weez: yeah, you'd get disconnected
Jul 09 23:00:06 <weez> just have never been on the receiving end
Jul 09 23:00:38 <ozamosi> Uhm... No, you don't.
Jul 09 23:00:52 <summatusmentis> ozamosi: no?
Jul 09 23:00:54 <ozamosi> A net split is when to servers stop communicating with each other.
Jul 09 23:01:18 <ozamosi> In this case, our server - kornbluth - didn't want to talk to any other server.
Jul 09 23:01:37 <weez> so we were sucking it then
Jul 09 23:01:59 <ozamosi> So we got our own little irc network, and all others stayed on the "main" net
Jul 09 23:02:06 <weez> ok
Jul 09 23:02:13 <weez> that is more like i thought
Jul 09 23:15:55 <|R> Is there a SIP client in the work somewhere? (so we can forward/call by an asterisk server :)
Jul 09 23:16:30 <fo0bar> bah, SIP
Jul 09 23:16:35 <LittleIdiot> i'm pimping linphone for use with the openmoko
Jul 09 23:16:38 <fo0bar> I'd kill for a decent IAX2 client
Jul 09 23:16:48 <|R> yeah well IAX2 would do too... ;)
Jul 09 23:16:59 <|R> but just to be more versatile :)
Jul 09 23:17:26 <fo0bar> true
Jul 09 23:18:00 <|R> if i can get SIP and SSH running over wifi... i really don't care for the rest right away hehe ;)
Jul 09 23:18:30 <LetoTo> sip over ssh?
Jul 09 23:18:48 <LetoTo> good luck with two layers of IP retransmissions on a high packet loss link
Jul 09 23:18:49 <|R> even better if possible, but not a prerequesite :D
Jul 09 23:19:04 <|R> but no, just sip or ssh
Jul 09 23:19:04 <LittleIdiot> try openvpn ;)
Jul 09 23:19:06 <LetoTo> it wasnt a good idea in 1995 and it isnt a good idea now
Jul 09 23:19:18 <LetoTo> I'm working on getting openswan ported
Jul 09 23:19:24 <|R> nice :)
Jul 09 23:19:25 <LittleIdiot> or srtp, but i'd use a real vpn
Jul 09 23:19:34 <LetoTo> but everytime i build openmoko, there is SOME issue for failing to make the base system :(
Jul 09 23:19:53 * LetoTo just released openswan-2.4.9
Jul 09 23:20:52 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SIM]] [[GSM]] [[GRPS]] [[SMS]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/it]] [[GPRS]] [[Main_Page/gr]] [[Category:Hardware]] [[Category:Hardware/it]]
Jul 09 23:22:19 <LittleIdiot> the wiki's database server isn't working... "(Can't contact the database server: Can't create UNIX socket (12) (localhost))"
Jul 09 23:23:07 <daMaestro> yeah, known issue
Jul 09 23:23:43 <hads> And roh is at the pub :)
Jul 09 23:24:14 <summatusmentis> also a known issue :-)
Jul 09 23:24:25 <tuukkah> does it mean the wiki is offline until he comes back ?-/
Jul 09 23:24:57 <summatusmentis> or until the webserver goes into flames. then someone is supposed to send him an sms
Jul 09 23:25:03 <hads> heh
Jul 09 23:25:12 <tuukkah> hmm how do we do that?
Jul 09 23:25:17 <idarwin> unless he can ssh from his openmoko at the pub  to the server, probably
Jul 09 23:25:18 <tuukkah> slashdot done
Jul 09 23:25:24 <tuukkah> digg done
Jul 09 23:25:41 <tuukkah> now it worked \o/
Jul 09 23:27:58 <|R>  /., digg, engadget, gizmodo, wired, boingboing, it's all over the place ;)
Jul 09 23:28:50 <summatusmentis> now, if it would get into the mainstream
Jul 09 23:29:18 <summatusmentis> tuukkah: I have no idea how we send him ss... hrm
Jul 09 23:29:42 <flingpoo> Use the Neo.
Jul 09 23:30:01 <summatusmentis> well, sms usually requires knowing his #
Jul 09 23:30:22 <tuukkah> program the Neo to support SMS sending and test this by sending him an SMS
Jul 09 23:30:35 <summatusmentis> lol
Jul 09 23:30:50 <summatusmentis> my lappy sends me sms when my emerge world is done :-)
Jul 09 23:31:13 <don-o> if we _all_ go to a pub, then the problem will cease to exist
Jul 09 23:31:25 <maxauthority> :)
Jul 09 23:31:29 * summatusmentis is under-age and in the US
Jul 09 23:31:36 <arachnid> Has anyone received an order acceptance yet?
Jul 09 23:31:44 <tuukkah> pubs not open everywhere at this time of world
Jul 09 23:31:46 <arachnid> I only got the 'we got your order' email thus far
Jul 09 23:32:18 <LittleIdiot> i suppose there are already more orders than neos? ;)
Jul 09 23:32:44 <arachnid> No idea
Jul 09 23:33:18 <hads> I don't think so.
Jul 09 23:39:32 <mikini> LittleIdiot : last I heard was about 350 orders (and average of 1.1 some phones pr. order), 7-8 hours ago.
Jul 09 23:40:49 <SpeedEvil> It's up over 500 now
Jul 09 23:41:09 <flingpoo> Mostly for the Base or Advanced?
Jul 09 23:41:13 <SpeedEvil> well - 420 last entry in the wikiwhich wa some time ago
Jul 09 23:41:17 <SpeedEvil> nobody knows.
Jul 09 23:42:08 <notserpe_> are the lists down?
Jul 09 23:42:16 <SpeedEvil> seems likely.
Jul 09 23:42:58 <notserpe_> wow.
Jul 09 23:44:29 <notserpe_> so what have I missed in the past 12 hours?
Jul 09 23:44:55 <dcordes> hi
Jul 09 23:48:54 <andylockran> still having issues with the mokomakefile - any idea when the servers will be back to pre-announcement levels?
Jul 09 23:50:12 <jseghers> Hello.  Is this a good place to ask a development question?
Jul 09 23:50:13 <aloril> jseghers: See https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 09 23:50:15 <dcordes> where can I get information on other devices supporting openmoko?
Jul 09 23:50:48 <notserpe_> dcordes: AFAIK, just the neo1973 from FIC at the moment but someone has also put it on a treo apparently.
Jul 09 23:50:55 <andylockran> dcordes: neo1973 is the only thing that'll support it right off
Jul 09 23:50:59 <andylockran> hence the excitement :p
Jul 09 23:51:23 <dcordes> but I heard there are people trying to extent gsmd to support other phone chipsets?
Jul 09 23:52:01 <SpeedEvil> Yes - there is a difference between some parts of the hardware wortking due to having hacked drivers, and it all just working though.
Jul 09 23:53:58 <dcordes> that's what I'm looking for - attempts hacking drivers for making OM available on different hardware
Jul 09 23:54:21 <dcordes> or is that a wrong place to ask due to commercial reasons
Jul 09 23:54:22 <dcordes> ?
Jul 09 23:56:33 <juri_> i would think as this is #openmoko, it makes sense to talk about the openmoko platform, whatever you're running it on.
Jul 09 23:57:24 <andylockran> yeah, the more devices the merrier...
Jul 09 23:57:51 <jseghers> Is there someone here who could answer a question on how to add a package to the OpenMoko build, locally?
Jul 09 23:58:22 <dcordes> jseghers, conf/local.conf?
Jul 09 23:59:12 <jseghers> What do I add to local.conf?  I haven't been able to find anything that suggests what needs to be set?
Jul 09 23:59:14 <andylockran> I'm trying to set up my own development environment - but the build keeps failing due to a possible network error...  anyone else having the same issues?  
Jul 09 23:59:29 <andylockran> I'm not trying to sound naive, but is it because of the high traffic at the moment?
Jul 09 23:59:53 <jseghers> andylockran: I'm getting the same thing at the moment... I think it might be because of server load
Jul 10 00:00:13 <andylockran> and if so, can openmoko have a go at contacting the UK mirror service.. what's the protocol for getting a mirror set up?
Jul 10 00:00:30 <SpeedEvil> UKMS is closing
Jul 10 00:00:34 <SpeedEvil> as I understand it
Jul 10 00:00:45 <jseghers> andylockran: I have successfully built using MokoMakefile many times now... today I've been having problems...sometimes just getting through make update and mostly when trying make openmoko-devel-image
Jul 10 00:01:37 <CoreDump|home> lol http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic
Jul 10 00:01:38 <andylockran> jseghers: yeah, tis annoying.. but probably good too
Jul 10 00:01:47 <arachnid> Can the Neo do USB2 as a _device_?
Jul 10 00:01:53 <arachnid> I know its host port is only 1.1
Jul 10 00:02:18 <SpeedEvil> no
Jul 10 00:02:20 <SpeedEvil> 1.1 only
Jul 10 00:02:31 <jseghers> andylockran: are you failing in the quilt task for one of the tasks?
Jul 10 00:02:46 <andylockran> jseghers: no, uboot at the moment
Jul 10 00:03:15 <andylockran> cleared my cache - redownloaded and still failing...
Jul 10 00:03:47 <jseghers> andylockarn: mine is failing in Uboot...../log.doquilt.32328
Jul 10 00:04:52 <jseghers> or not.... it seems actually to get to different stopping points
Jul 10 00:05:12 <andylockran> yeah, each time is different
Jul 10 00:05:56 <jseghers> well... my carpool is here... off I go.
Jul 10 00:06:05 <andylockran> my last one got part way thru the compile... strange behaviour
Jul 10 00:06:09 <andylockran> bye!
Jul 10 00:07:00 <tuukkah> could it be simply because the build process relies on the servers, which are now under stress
Jul 10 00:16:12 <juri_> so.. i'm sure everyone is just waiting to support the hundreds of newbies (myself included) who'll be asking for help as soon as their openmoko arrives. :)
Jul 10 00:21:17 <Psi_> juri_, hehe
Jul 10 00:22:07 <Psi_> unfortunately i imagine there will be a lot of people asking, why doesn't software (X) work when they get their phone :(
Jul 10 00:22:18 <juri_> "why can't i make a phone call?" "wheres the organizer?" "how do i file 300 feature requests?" "whats C?"
Jul 10 00:22:25 <Psi_> yeah
Jul 10 00:22:34 <Psi_> i think you can make phonecalls
Jul 10 00:22:43 <tuukkah> i suggest everybody work on the wiki a bit in advance
Jul 10 00:23:15 <SpeedEvil> I'd further suggest that everyone has to confirm their order.
Jul 10 00:23:29 <SpeedEvil> After getting a message detailing what the phone won't do in its current state.
Jul 10 00:23:33 <juri_> my confirmation mail still has t shown.
Jul 10 00:23:37 <Psi_> that would be a very good idea
Jul 10 00:23:48 <SpeedEvil> No confirm, no phone.
Jul 10 00:23:59 <Psi_> juri_, did you get the auto reply?
Jul 10 00:24:12 <juri_> negative.
Jul 10 00:24:23 <SpeedEvil> Hold back some of the phones for people who say 'oops, I really want one'.
Jul 10 00:25:06 <juri_> i got the "congratulations, you will get a confirmation mail" page, but no mail.
Jul 10 00:25:23 <summatusmentis> they obviously had more phones purchased than were available right?
Jul 10 00:27:46 <Psi_> so you dont know your ticket number  ie #2120 etc?
Jul 10 00:27:47 <Psi_> juri_,  you should get an email within say 30 minute of placing the order (most people get it instantly), its NOT an order confirmation just an 'auto reply' that your order was received
Jul 10 00:28:21 <Psi_> summatusmentis, i dont know what the count is at now
Jul 10 00:28:23 <juri_> i'm still checking with my mail admin. i'm just hoping a spam blocker got it.
Jul 10 00:29:18 <__alurdun> Can anyone else get on the site right now? I'm trying to place my order, and suddenly the site no wrokee.
Jul 10 00:30:41 <Psi_> juri_, i think roh is the one to talk to if you really didnt get the autoreply email
Jul 10 00:40:30 <idarwin> __alurdun: no, the .com site seems to have gone down or be rebooting, i get connection refused when trying from various places on the internet. I hope it's a sign of just too much buying activity, not anything sinister or serious, and that the ones who slashdotted it don't give up because they crashed it :-)
Jul 10 00:49:19 <notserpe> ah man, somebody has registered asterisk on openmoko as a project...
Jul 10 00:50:25 <Beastlykings> excuse me, but, where do I buy an OpenMoko, and what is its relation to the Neo1973?
Jul 10 00:50:25 <aloril> Beastlykings: See https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 00:50:46 <summatusmentis> Beastlykings: openmoko is the software on the neo1973
Jul 10 00:50:51 <notserpe> openmoko is the platform, neo1973 is a specific phone for the platform made b FIC
Jul 10 00:50:58 <summatusmentis> you don't buy 'openmoko' per se
Jul 10 00:51:13 <Beastlykings> ohic, they should probably be more clear of this, no?
Jul 10 00:51:47 <summatusmentis> I'll agree openmoko and neo1973 tend to be interchangable in the press, yes
Jul 10 00:51:59 <summatusmentis> but it's pretty clear
Jul 10 00:52:00 <Aria> Indeed. I've done it too, *guilty*
Jul 10 00:52:09 <summatusmentis> me too
Jul 10 00:52:15 <don-o> me three
Jul 10 00:52:18 <Beastlykings> so... can I buy a Neo1973 yet?
Jul 10 00:52:25 <Beastlykings> like, is it for sale anywhere?
Jul 10 00:52:26 <summatusmentis> you can buy the dev version, yes
Jul 10 00:52:26 <don-o> give me all the openmokos!
Jul 10 00:52:31 <summatusmentis> www.openmoko.com
Jul 10 00:52:31 <Aria> GTA01v4 model is out, the dev version
Jul 10 00:52:49 <Beastlykings> ahh, dev version?
Jul 10 00:53:03 <Beastlykings> I are stupid lol
Jul 10 00:53:06 <summatusmentis> yeah, software is nowhere near ready for consumers
Jul 10 00:53:08 <Psi_> Beastlykings, yes, stuff doesnt work, its not a usable phone yet, its for people to develop stuff on
Jul 10 00:53:22 <don-o> Beastlykings: let me put it this way, its fairly certain but not completely certain you'll be able to _make calls_
Jul 10 00:53:37 <Psi_> hehe yeah ^^
Jul 10 00:54:12 <Psi_> Beastlykings, the hardware is all good, its just the software that still being created/debugged etc.
Jul 10 00:54:16 <Beastlykings> oh I see, so, pretty much its still being developed and it might be awhile before its an actul mainstream type phone?
Jul 10 00:54:32 <Psi_> correct
Jul 10 00:54:42 <Beastlykings> cool, thanks guys
Jul 10 00:54:44 <summatusmentis> currently, it's supposed to be october, but we don't know when the 'consumer' version will be ready
Jul 10 00:54:50 <Psi_> but you could buy it if you wanted to, nothing stopping you
Jul 10 00:55:11 <Psi_> it just wouldnt work correctly
Jul 10 00:55:26 <summatusmentis> well, it'll do what it's supposed to at this point...
Jul 10 00:55:35 <Beastlykings> hmm..
Jul 10 00:55:42 <Psi_> true, but some software is still got bugs
Jul 10 00:55:53 <Beastlykings> I'm no programmer so it'd wouldn't be the best idea for me lol
Jul 10 00:55:58 <Psi_> it could crash right in the middle of a phonecall  etc..
Jul 10 00:56:00 <Demitar> Also, you may want to wait until the mass market release for the updated hardware.
Jul 10 00:56:17 <Beastlykings> k, will do, thanks agin
Jul 10 00:56:38 <Psi_> the updated hardware is has some good stuff :)
Jul 10 00:56:41 <Psi_> -is
Jul 10 01:09:04 <osmosis> how many phones have been ordered so far?
Jul 10 01:15:56 <notserpe> i wish the lists were up.
Jul 10 01:18:29 <notserpe> osmosis: someone mentioned ~500 so far
Jul 10 01:18:43 <orzo> ~500 what?  orders?
Jul 10 01:18:44 <aloril> orzo: See https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jul 10 01:19:14 <SpeedEvil> orzo: yes
Jul 10 01:19:15 <summatusmentis> orzo: yeah, phones
Jul 10 01:19:20 <SpeedEvil> orzo: possibly more than that phones
Jul 10 01:19:53 <orzo> i just placed an order
Jul 10 01:20:24 <orzo> by the website problems, i might have guessed more than 500
Jul 10 01:21:31 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[GSM]] [[Neo1973]] [[Gsmd]] [[Hardware:AT_Commands]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]]
Jul 10 01:26:12 <notserpe> orzo: nobody really knows since we're talking order confirmation numbers (guesses) and not units.
Jul 10 01:27:47 <notserpe> actually I mean "order tracking numbers"... has anyone got a confirmation yet?
Jul 10 01:27:57 <orzo> not me
Jul 10 01:28:39 <Aria> No, everything's still in shipment to the US of A
Jul 10 01:28:50 <notserpe> shortly after your order submission you should receive an email giving you some receipt with a number like #1880
Jul 10 01:29:17 <orzo> hasnt come yet
Jul 10 01:29:28 <notserpe> speedevil mentioned that there should be another round of confirmation that you confirm that you know that this is a developer device and not a functioning retail phone.
Jul 10 01:29:46 <SpeedEvil> Should be - I have no idea if there will be.
Jul 10 01:29:59 <notserpe> I agree. I mean boingboing is covering this
Jul 10 01:30:04 <orzo> hm, im having email problems
Jul 10 01:31:12 <sparq> notserpe: The article on BoingBoing does say, at least, 'It's still in "developer preview," but this might just be my next phone.'
Jul 10 01:31:36 <orzo> damn
Jul 10 01:32:01 <orzo> im not receiving a test message to myself
Jul 10 01:32:04 <notserpe> yep. I was glad to read that. I'm worried that alot of wind will be taken out of the sails with complaints about the developer models regular users might receive.
Jul 10 01:35:15 <notserpe> there was a page recently added to the wiki mentioning how the phones were shipping from the factory probably with a factory testing type firmware and not even a recent openmoko build (which ofcourse is understandable) but that would make my mom upset and take away the warm and fuzzies quick.
Jul 10 01:37:08 <daMaestro> http://boingboing.net/images/iphone600talk.jpg awesome
Jul 10 01:37:33 <orzo> does the confirmation email need responding to?
Jul 10 01:37:51 <orzo> i dont think i'll receive it, the email i gave isnt working
Jul 10 01:41:16 <myk> have folks been receiving their confirmation mails?  i have received my auto reply but not the confirmation that was supposed to follow within 24 hours
Jul 10 01:41:19 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. http://www.globallocate.com/NETWORK/NET_AGPS_SERVER_Frameset.htm
Jul 10 01:41:31 <SpeedEvil> They don't provide a free AGPS server.
Jul 10 01:41:35 <SpeedEvil> Bastards!
Jul 10 01:42:42 <happycube> myk - not yet and remember that time works slightly differently in openmokoland ;0
Jul 10 01:42:43 <happycube> ;)
Jul 10 01:43:21 <daMaestro> http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/fic_neo1973_smartphone.html "developed with the chinese gov. for a windows based..."
Jul 10 01:43:27 <daMaestro> is this still happening?
Jul 10 01:43:51 <happycube> it dosen't sound like they're ramping up for xxxK units
Jul 10 01:44:31 <SpeedEvil> happycube: they have done the first K, they are probably pulling the trigger on the next few K as we speak.
Jul 10 01:44:40 <SpeedEvil> This version is _not_ mass-market.
Jul 10 01:44:47 <SpeedEvil> Or at least it's not meant to be.
Jul 10 01:45:04 <happycube> indeed
Jul 10 01:45:04 <idarwin>  notserpe: the developer preview is not intended for your mom at this stage...
Jul 10 01:45:27 <myk> happycube: k, thanks, i'll try to remember ;-)
Jul 10 01:45:29 <Skwid_> lol
Jul 10 01:46:17 <happycube> i think they were experimenting with speeding up time but their machine went backwards by mistake
Jul 10 01:46:27 <happycube> hence the long delay of gta001
Jul 10 01:46:50 <notserpe> idarwin: I know. I was being sarcastic. the point being someone who is relatively tech saavy and opensource friendly might read the press and jump too early.
Jul 10 01:46:54 * SpeedEvil ponders how many moms GTA01 is for...
Jul 10 01:47:21 <happycube> seriously at least for the delay it's $50 cheaper and has bluetooth now... 
Jul 10 01:47:40 * happycube was in the OMG bluetooth camp
Jul 10 01:50:13 <SpeedEvil> Bluetooth - and has no horrible, horrible power problems.
Jul 10 01:50:19 <SpeedEvil> Though bluetooth over USB sucks.
Jul 10 01:50:44 <SpeedEvil> The CPU has to be kept running nearly full speed to talk to it at all.
Jul 10 01:52:08 <idarwin> sorry notserpe, my sarcast detector was offline temporarily.
Jul 10 01:53:21 <happycube> speedevil - ouch
Jul 10 01:53:28 <happycube> what's a better way of wiring bt up?
Jul 10 01:53:42 <SpeedEvil> SPI would have worked.
Jul 10 01:53:53 <SpeedEvil> Problem is available modules.
Jul 10 02:05:11 <daMaestro> SpeedEvil, are we able to easily turn on/off bluetooth?
Jul 10 02:05:22 <daMaestro> SpeedEvil, save power when not needed?
Jul 10 02:05:32 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jul 10 02:05:41 <SpeedEvil> Bluetooth needs little power compared to the CPU
Jul 10 02:06:18 <daMaestro> but i assume it would also free up the usb stuff?
Jul 10 02:06:27 <daMaestro> or would we only see trivial power saving?
Jul 10 02:06:39 <SpeedEvil> There isn't much saving turning off USB if I remember right.
Jul 10 02:06:50 <SpeedEvil> The CPU core is the big draw - even in idle mode.
Jul 10 02:06:55 <sublime> on every cell phone ive ever had bluetooth is a power hog and destroys battery life
Jul 10 02:07:08 <sublime> cant speak about the 1973 though, dont have one yet
Jul 10 02:07:41 <SpeedEvil> On the Neo - bluetooth means keeping the CPU on at high speed.
Jul 10 02:07:58 <SpeedEvil> This will kill battery life - you're looking at some 6-8 hours.
Jul 10 02:08:19 <SpeedEvil> Maybe 10-12, if idle mode is fully implemented
Jul 10 02:09:03 <SpeedEvil> At least at the moment - this may change if hardware changes.
Jul 10 02:12:10 <idarwin> wiki is back up now
Jul 10 02:17:21 <doc|home> 10-12 per charge, even with bluetooth off?
Jul 10 02:20:54 <bmk789> whats with the website?
Jul 10 02:21:25 <bmk789> is it acting up for anyone else?
Jul 10 02:21:30 <happycube> 10-12 w/bluetooth on
Jul 10 02:21:34 <happycube> and the website got /.'d and dugg
Jul 10 02:22:08 <bmk789> just overloaded?
Jul 10 02:22:23 <doc|home> happycube: how long with bt off?
Jul 10 02:22:34 <sublime> the wiki has been down almost all day for me
Jul 10 02:22:48 <sublime> the shop has been intermitent
Jul 10 02:25:15 <LetoTo> there are proxies...
Jul 10 02:25:34 <happycube> doc - beats me
Jul 10 02:25:44 <doc|home> ok, thanks
Jul 10 02:28:21 <LetoTo> the slashdot didnt create that much extra traffic
Jul 10 02:28:24 <bmk789> im assuming its charged via the miniUSB port?
Jul 10 02:28:27 <LetoTo> http://cricket.xtdnet.nl/cgi-bin/mini-graph.cgi?type=png;target=%2Frouter-interfaces%2Frmon_port_25_on_unit_1;inst=0;dslist=ifInOctets%2CifOutOctets;range=151200;rand=907
Jul 10 02:28:34 <LetoTo> that;s for one of the mirror sites :)
Jul 10 02:29:06 <LetoTo> though it's a few virtual servers combined, but I'm sure most of it was from openmoko
Jul 10 02:29:54 <orzo> do you work for the company?
Jul 10 02:33:03 <paulproteus> Wow, openmoko.com is slow.
Jul 10 02:33:13 <ExxonValdeez> really?
Jul 10 02:33:24 <ExxonValdeez> it must be the traffic hitting the site
Jul 10 02:33:27 <paulproteus> Well, I'm still waiting for it to load.
Jul 10 02:33:29 <ExxonValdeez> it wasnt that bad yesterday
Jul 10 02:33:34 <paulproteus> I think the mysqld is dead.
Jul 10 02:35:09 <ExxonValdeez> thats interesting
Jul 10 02:35:20 <ExxonValdeez> whoa, yeah
Jul 10 02:35:27 <bmk789> can any of you see EDGE or 3G being implemented anytime soon?
Jul 10 02:38:36 <ExxonValdeez> i dont think so
Jul 10 02:38:51 <ExxonValdeez> wifi isnt coming out till the retail version
Jul 10 02:39:09 <orzo> the retail version is still set for october?
Jul 10 02:39:20 <bmk789> thats what i heard
Jul 10 02:39:28 <ExxonValdeez> yes it is
Jul 10 02:40:29 <sublime> X = 1/2at^2 + V0t + X0
Jul 10 02:40:33 <sublime> dammit
Jul 10 02:40:44 <sublime> writing my diff eq notes in irc ftl
Jul 10 02:40:57 <ExxonValdeez> smooth
Jul 10 02:41:34 <sublime> word
Jul 10 02:42:48 <ExxonValdeez> but hey, if you are logging the conversation just print out the log
Jul 10 02:44:23 <ExxonValdeez> hello sagaci1
Jul 10 02:45:19 <sagaci1> Good evening
Jul 10 02:45:28 <sagaci1> at least to me
Jul 10 02:47:19 <ExxonValdeez> has anyone ordered a phone?
Jul 10 02:47:25 <sublime> i have
Jul 10 02:47:28 <gerikes> yes
Jul 10 02:47:31 <orzo> ya
Jul 10 02:47:53 <orzo> wish i could change the email on my order
Jul 10 02:48:13 <myk> orzo: perhaps you can reply to the autoreply requesting that your email be changed
Jul 10 02:48:18 <sublime> wish they would charge my card already and let me know what color im getting
Jul 10 02:48:29 <sublime> suprise suprise the shop didnt work right
Jul 10 02:48:31 <orzo> myk, i did not receive the autoreply or any other mail to the address i used
Jul 10 02:48:43 <myk> orzo: ah, hmm
Jul 10 02:48:45 <gerikes> I'm curious about that too. I saw a black and an orange. Are they faceplates or what?
Jul 10 02:48:49 <galexande> so, suppose you have an active phone conversation going on, and you press "2".  Does the phone use the sound chip to generate a DTFM tone which is fed to the gsm instead of the microphone, or does it just send ATD2 to the GSM which does it all somehow?
Jul 10 02:49:34 <ExxonValdeez> hey galexande! as to your question, idk
Jul 10 02:49:37 <galexande> gerikes, use the 'comment' field to select your preference (black/silver vs. orange/white)
Jul 10 02:49:58 <galexande> and if you're lucky and don't pick black/silver, you're sure to get what you want
Jul 10 02:50:25 <galexande> lo exxon
Jul 10 02:50:27 <galexande> still leaking?
Jul 10 02:50:31 <ExxonValdeez> ?
Jul 10 02:50:37 <sublime> anyone know how many orders theyve logged?
Jul 10 02:50:42 <ExxonValdeez> leaking?
Jul 10 02:51:05 <ExxonValdeez> nope, but sublime do you do a lot of programming?
Jul 10 02:51:07 <galexande> exxon, off the alaska coastline, no?
Jul 10 02:51:16 <galexande> sublime, a bunch.
Jul 10 02:51:23 <sublime> yeha i figured a bunch
Jul 10 02:51:33 <galexande> i'm just guessing but i think about 600-700 units
Jul 10 02:51:44 <sublime> im in my 4th year of comp engineering school
Jul 10 02:52:00 <sublime> done some C, lots of java and a little verilog
Jul 10 02:52:07 <sublime> verilog doesnt count though
Jul 10 02:53:01 <ExxonValdeez> verilog?
Jul 10 02:53:14 <galexande> ugh, i think i interrupted a download with mokomakefile, it seems to be missing most of uboot
Jul 10 02:53:23 <galexande> but i can't find the tarball to delete to make it refetch it.
Jul 10 02:53:47 <sublime> verilog is hardware design code
Jul 10 02:54:00 <sublime> circuit design i should say
Jul 10 02:54:12 <ExxonValdeez> oh, galexande, yeah, still leaking, although its not as bad was what is pumped into the rain forest, and sublime, interesting,
Jul 10 02:54:49 <sublime> i hate electricity
Jul 10 02:55:35 <sublime> so it wasnt interesting for me, it was painful
Jul 10 02:55:55 <orzo> can device drivers be auto generated from verilog code?
Jul 10 02:56:03 <sublime> no idea
Jul 10 02:56:14 <galexande> orzo, not generally
Jul 10 02:56:18 <sublime> most i did with verilog was code a basic calculator
Jul 10 02:56:34 <ExxonValdeez> ah
Jul 10 02:56:44 <galexande> orzo, verilog tells how the device works, whereas the device driver just has to interface with the periphery of the device, and the periphery of the OS
Jul 10 02:57:10 <ExxonValdeez> i made a basic program to do stoichiometry
Jul 10 02:57:34 <orzo> yes, well itd be nice to have a description of the perifery from which we could generate a driver for whatever OS we want
Jul 10 02:57:53 <galexande> i guess now's as good a time as any to learn how the hell to use bitbake
Jul 10 02:58:02 <sublime> i hate stoichiometry
Jul 10 02:58:04 <sublime> with a passion
Jul 10 02:58:10 <sublime> more than i hate electricity
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jul 10 02:59:57 2007