**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 12 02:59:57 2007 Jul 12 03:00:43 hmm sorry, can't help Jul 12 03:01:07 daMaestro: Alright, thanks Jul 12 03:02:39 Is developing for OpenMoko (application level) well supported under Ubuntu (or some other debian deriviative?) Jul 12 03:08:35 from what I can tell cross compiling and emulation support should be identical under various linux distros Jul 12 03:08:43 I've not done it myself... yet Jul 12 03:10:51 check the wiki for the various emulation options Jul 12 03:11:24 yeah, afaik, the distro shouldn't matter at all Jul 12 03:14:23 wello. Jul 12 03:17:03 but yeah, jargonjustin, most any distro should be just fine, and well supported.. well, it's intended to be on a linux host :-) Jul 12 03:17:17 Thanks all Jul 12 03:20:27 Anyone know what this is about: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11/#20070711-insanity Jul 12 03:20:46 charkins: yes, laf0rge is overworked. don't be worried. Jul 12 03:21:06 ahh Jul 12 03:21:25 or, that's what we've garnered after discussing it all day Jul 12 03:22:08 :) Jul 12 03:22:18 well it's either that or we could start the rumour-mongering again! Jul 12 03:22:46 lol, rumor-mongering-- Jul 12 03:23:06 but in reality, aside from what mickey|zzZZzz has said, we don't really know Jul 12 03:23:22 we never know. Jul 12 03:23:33 overworked + type of person he is == that post, from what I can tell Jul 12 03:23:42 great, found a patch for coreutils so I can build it Jul 12 03:23:43 i get the same impression Jul 12 03:23:52 a post like that at the same time the neo is being released.. Jul 12 03:23:57 take a day off mate :) Jul 12 03:24:15 take a month off, call it good Jul 12 03:24:20 hehe Jul 12 03:24:23 noone will care Jul 12 03:24:32 in fact, they all deserve a month off Jul 12 03:25:12 certainly. Jul 12 03:25:36 but if they take time off, things will get even more screwed up. as we like to say: "the beatings will continue till morale improves" Jul 12 03:26:04 i get the impression the neo won't be the killer app it wants to be, but it's set a huge precedent which can only mean better things from other manufacturers (or perhaps a later revision of the neo) Jul 12 03:26:26 I guess that's true... GTA02 release, the entire neo section of FIC had better not show up to work Jul 12 03:26:29 it was never meant to be a killer app. Jul 12 03:26:47 for one person to contribute to the first Open phone whilest fighting the cause of the GPL in german courts, good going, i say. Jul 12 03:27:39 what are you talking about? Jul 12 03:28:25 summatusmentis: the same guy is the first person i've ever seen to take a stand against embedded device vendors violating the GPL Jul 12 03:28:51 laf0rge? good for him Jul 12 03:29:31 * summatusmentis doesn't follow german news Jul 12 03:29:32 he's got several out of court settlements, including from Linksys (who now at least partially publish their modifications) Jul 12 03:30:29 people like that should be allowed to threaten to kill people now and again hehe Jul 12 03:31:14 There are various interesting things going on Jul 12 03:31:25 I was really surprised to hear openmoko runs (at least out of ram) on the treo 650 Jul 12 03:31:30 all the cool stuff happens in europe :-/ Jul 12 03:31:47 even seen some openezx activity recently Jul 12 03:31:54 maemo seems healthy as well Jul 12 03:32:12 hell motorola is rumored to be somewhat close to a linux based sdk for their linux phones Jul 12 03:32:30 * summatusmentis is waiting to see what palms offerings of linux are Jul 12 03:33:54 yeah, not so sure about palm Jul 12 03:34:12 sure they are leveraging palm apps through a set of libs running on linux Jul 12 03:34:25 but it's not necessarily in their best interest to let people devel native linux apps Jul 12 03:36:06 fair enough Jul 12 03:40:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Ambient_light_sensor]] [[Extra_storage]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User_talk:Myfanwy]] [[Digital_gaming]] Jul 12 03:42:18 well, as I quoted laf0rge has been almost completely burned out since February .. Jul 12 03:45:49 make[1]: *** [cpu-exec.o] Error 1 Jul 12 03:45:51 hmm Jul 12 03:45:57 /builddir/build/BUILD/qemu-neo1973/cpu-exec.c: In function `cpu_arm_exec': Jul 12 03:46:00 /builddir/build/BUILD/qemu-neo1973/cpu-exec.c:757: error: bp cannot be used in asm here Jul 12 03:46:02 make[1]: *** [cpu-exec.o] Error 1 Jul 12 03:46:15 anyone having this issue trying to build 32bit on x86_64? Jul 12 03:46:19 x86_64 builds fine Jul 12 03:46:30 i'm chroot building too.. so i'm not sure what is wrong Jul 12 03:48:36 os distro? Jul 12 03:53:31 spikebike, fedora 7 x86_64 Jul 12 03:53:58 spikebike, building in mock using 32bit repo; http://repo.damaestro.us/fedora/personal/7/x86_64/qemu-neo1973-2378.svn-1.fc7.src.rpm Jul 12 04:00:02 so, has anyone gotten anything more than the auto-rt response? Jul 12 04:03:42 no Jul 12 04:05:52 not here either Jul 12 04:06:44 ah, sorry, I've not played with fc7, most of my chroot/32/64 bit experience is with ubuntu Jul 12 04:06:58 same here, nothing other than initial auto-reply Jul 12 04:07:00 redhat seems to be pushing hybrid 32/64 Jul 12 04:07:14 where debian/ubuntu seem to push mostly 64 bit with a 32 bit chroot Jul 12 04:07:28 except for openoffice, although I think that's close to 64 bit native now Jul 12 04:08:15 yea.. redhat doesn't really like pure64 Jul 12 04:08:27 or at least they see a reason to not use pure64 and go multilib Jul 12 04:08:52 though.. i've seen some comments among the fedora dev team that leads me to think otherwise Jul 12 04:10:13 I'm sure it's a debat Jul 12 04:10:14 e Jul 12 04:10:24 for a few generations I used fedora or ubuntu 64 bit Jul 12 04:10:33 then after awhile I gave up and went pure 32 (for desktop use) Jul 12 04:10:53 so now I'm pretty much pure 64 on the server and pure 32 on the desktop Jul 12 04:11:38 things like flash, openoffice, java plugins, windows codecs, java games, nvidia drivers, etc. Jul 12 04:12:12 not to mention games (americas army, doom, quake, and related) Jul 12 04:12:37 yuck, binary-only crap makes my stomach turn Jul 12 04:12:42 agreed Jul 12 04:12:44 (yes, i play doom3 too) Jul 12 04:12:52 well game binaries less so Jul 12 04:13:07 but things like video card drivers or anything near the kernel Jul 12 04:13:21 i find them the most objectionable because such a small amount of work can often dramatically improve the product Jul 12 04:13:53 for example (to toot my horn) quake was unplayable for me until I got the source code, but only 24 hours later, svgalib-quake was a reality Jul 12 04:14:22 whereas i live with the nvidia drivers, even though i strongly suspect that they're the cause of my random crashes in X. i'm too lazy to track random video driver crashes anyways. Jul 12 04:14:27 (rationalizing) Jul 12 04:15:09 although whats worse is closed phones Jul 12 04:15:22 amen!! Jul 12 04:15:34 I'm peeved that despite usb, wifi, and bluetooth support I can't backup my phone address book to my linux box easily Jul 12 04:15:46 Heck yeah. Jul 12 04:15:50 Ditto that. Jul 12 04:15:59 I had great hopes for the iphone, the ipod works great (music or file transfers) Jul 12 04:16:04 i keep on reading these little infuriating things about iphone, like if it rings while it's locked, you can't make it stop ringing without answering the phone Jul 12 04:16:30 and i know if we had a thousand eyes with a thousand hands monkeying around in the code, we would for sure have noticed this problem and become motivated enough to code up a solution Jul 12 04:16:34 so the motorola phones "might" be open Jul 12 04:16:40 (even the linux ones) Jul 12 04:16:42 (or I would, on my phone) Jul 12 04:16:47 openmoko will not Jul 12 04:16:52 green phone isn't Jul 12 04:16:53 oops Jul 12 04:16:58 openmoko will (of course) Jul 12 04:17:05 greenphone is so frustrating to read about Jul 12 04:17:27 the whole trolltech phenomenon...i know that it is an anticipated use of the gpl, but yuck Jul 12 04:18:17 i mean QPL Jul 12 04:18:31 the razr 2 and z6 show promise... but without a SDK and an open api that would allow applications to float across platforms it's going to be a very limited community with few aps Jul 12 04:19:40 yeah, honestly i thought the palm os phones were pretty convincing because palmos is so open for development (compared to iphone, anyways, and less irritating than wince) Jul 12 04:19:42 motorola only wants 3rd party java apps Jul 12 04:19:48 but the closed-source dialer app is totally fatal Jul 12 04:20:24 heh, we should convince john carmack to release a special edition of doom on the neo Jul 12 04:20:24 ljp sad if true Jul 12 04:20:38 dooms opensource I thought Jul 12 04:20:44 that would get us our first 100,000 orders to bring us into the mainstream Jul 12 04:20:45 true, as they dont release a native compiled sdk.. only java Jul 12 04:20:55 spike, i mean for the hype...of course i'm gonna try to build doom for it :) Jul 12 04:21:02 not even a java sdk for their linux phones Jul 12 04:21:06 i mean, i've been trying to wrap my head around a touchscreen (no buttons) doom for a week now Jul 12 04:21:14 sad to require windows to write java aps for al inux phone Jul 12 04:21:23 use tilt ;-) Jul 12 04:21:32 spikebike: they do for customers Jul 12 04:21:32 and the microphone ;-) Jul 12 04:21:39 yeah someone else said that but i'm not gonna order the gta02 if i can manage Jul 12 04:22:03 microphone is smart though, very smart Jul 12 04:22:09 thanks! i could totally do that Jul 12 04:22:10 voice commands! Jul 12 04:22:12 bang bang bang Jul 12 04:22:14 "fire fire fire fire" Jul 12 04:22:14 hahahaha Jul 12 04:22:17 tilt tilt tilt Jul 12 04:22:25 bang bang bang Jul 12 04:22:26 reload! Jul 12 04:22:48 i still am not seeing convincing circle-strafe Jul 12 04:23:00 there's TWO 3d acceleratomers right? Jul 12 04:23:08 um, i'm not sure, i do think all 3 axes are covered Jul 12 04:23:14 they're supposedly as low-end as accelerometers come Jul 12 04:23:26 still Jul 12 04:23:30 so are the wii's Jul 12 04:23:37 yeah, that's what i was thinking too Jul 12 04:23:46 pretty sure there are TWO Jul 12 04:23:47 but it definitely does not have a gyro Jul 12 04:23:53 so you get more than x,y, and z Jul 12 04:24:07 i think it is two 2-d ones so one axis is covered twice, but not well enough really to detect rotation orthogonal to it Jul 12 04:24:18 specs claim 2 3'd Jul 12 04:24:21 2 3d's Jul 12 04:24:23 ok :) Jul 12 04:24:36 although there was a mention of not picking the exact chip so maybe it will change Jul 12 04:24:57 I suspect 99% of folks will be happy if the screen rotates when you rotate it Jul 12 04:25:08 yeah, i think it can be used for control too though Jul 12 04:25:36 in any case I'd skip the GPS...seems kinda silly Jul 12 04:25:47 but the gta02 is pretty close to the mark and if it works out well I'll get one Jul 12 04:26:56 i got it!!! fundamentally to circle-strafe you need 3 axes... turn (rotate), slide (strafe), and run (forward/back), so you can do one pair on the touch screen, and the remaining axis can be the pitch of your voice! Jul 12 04:27:01 so you would be singing into the microphone :) Jul 12 04:27:09 and the mic would also pick up taps on the case to fire! Jul 12 04:27:37 i'm crazy about the GPS, I'd never thought about it before but now i can't imagine getting a device without it Jul 12 04:27:59 dunno, a gps is so easy to add Jul 12 04:28:07 I keep one in my fanny pack Jul 12 04:28:16 anything with bluetooth can connect Jul 12 04:28:25 it's 10 times better then the one in any cell phone Jul 12 04:28:30 and lasts 300 hours in a charge Jul 12 04:28:33 on Jul 12 04:28:44 it's never seemed worth it to me, i travel so light, but if there's no size penalty, i'll gladly carry it inisde another device Jul 12 04:28:54 Ditto. Jul 12 04:29:18 any additional chip = more design time, more expensive, more weight/thickness, delay for delivery etc. Jul 12 04:29:30 yeah, if it had been my choice, i wouldn't have done it. :) Jul 12 04:29:44 so I use my nokia 770 heavily Jul 12 04:29:49 i'm just excited to be getting my first gps device, coincidentally it runs linux and makes phonecalls too Jul 12 04:30:04 it's thin (thinner the the new) about the same weight, has a much better screen, wifi, and no gps Jul 12 04:30:06 does the n770 talk bt? Jul 12 04:30:10 s/new/neo/ Jul 12 04:30:11 spikebike meant: it's thin (thinner the the neo) about the same weight, has a much better screen, wifi, and no gps Jul 12 04:30:29 heh Jul 12 04:30:42 yeah the 770 talks bt Jul 12 04:30:45 it seems you are living the dream with your personal area network :) Jul 12 04:30:55 oh and less than 1/2 the price Jul 12 04:31:12 yeah i almost bought an n770 before i learned about the neo because it is so cheap! Jul 12 04:31:13 what would totally rock would be a bt GSM device Jul 12 04:31:29 so you could add cellular to any bt device Jul 12 04:31:33 like say a $129 770 ;-) Jul 12 04:31:47 there are cheap phones that do BT Jul 12 04:31:49 just saw a Nokia 6300, sweet phone for the price, very thin Jul 12 04:31:59 i'm addicted to having everything in one device, though. i only carry one thing around, and for now that means the cellphone comes with and the pda stays home Jul 12 04:32:07 nah I want a gsm device just like my gps Jul 12 04:32:18 i hate camera phones, but someday i'll have one and it'll change my life Jul 12 04:32:21 cheap, awesome battery life, durable, small, can hide it anywhere Jul 12 04:32:28 makes mt N95 look like a brick Jul 12 04:32:33 my* Jul 12 04:32:39 like say where it gets better reception Jul 12 04:32:45 like against a high window Jul 12 04:33:38 galexande: closest I have come is either a Toshiba G900 or a Nokia N95 with a bluetooth keyboard Jul 12 04:33:52 cheap sell phones are a pain in the ass to use, have a lousy gui, fragile, and have terrible batteries Jul 12 04:34:01 cell phones Jul 12 04:34:46 not to mention I don't particularly want to irradiate my head with gsm all the time Jul 12 04:34:49 If Nokia made a phone that was like the N800 it would be dead on for me Jul 12 04:34:55 well, my cheap cell phone looks like and is as fragile as a brick :) Jul 12 04:35:03 heh Jul 12 04:35:07 gal mine as well Jul 12 04:35:07 i walked half a mile in the pouring rain and talked on it, in the pouring rain, and it still works great Jul 12 04:35:23 6 year old monochrome ummm t42 or something Jul 12 04:35:43 heh sanyo scp4700, even cheaper :) Jul 12 04:35:47 ah siemens Jul 12 04:36:05 my none company phone (personal weekend and family unit) is a crappy Sony/Ericsson unit with bugger all features but the battery lasts for ages Jul 12 04:36:10 I've dropped it at 15mph onto the street several times Jul 12 04:36:17 I found it thrown out lol Jul 12 04:36:28 spike, shouldn't talk while you're biking Jul 12 04:36:59 I'm not usually Jul 12 04:37:08 doesn't keep it from jumping out of a shirt pocket Jul 12 04:37:22 and when I do I'm usually alone on a bike path (not in traffic) Jul 12 04:37:32 but that brings up another issue, all these media/pda/phones are nice but the battery just doesnt last Jul 12 04:37:49 N95 = 2 days Jul 12 04:38:01 heh, i had one hand on a shipping box and one hand on a cellphone and thank god for the uphill or i'd have had no brakes Jul 12 04:38:13 crappy 4 year old Sony/Ericsson = 6 days Jul 12 04:38:26 my gps 10+ days ;-) Jul 12 04:38:35 galore, i hope we can hack the neo to last... Jul 12 04:38:47 if there was a $50 gps modules I'd leave one at work and home Jul 12 04:38:57 and incoming/outgoing calls would use whichever is within range Jul 12 04:38:57 i get the impression in gta01bv3, it leaked current like crazy, so gta01bv4 is an untried experiment in power saving Jul 12 04:39:22 spikebike: N95 has GPS Jul 12 04:39:22 btw the gta02 battery sounded pretty large Jul 12 04:39:40 moin Jul 12 04:39:47 1700 mah? Jul 12 04:39:52 CM: stop poking me while I enjoy my intelligence-sleep :P Jul 12 04:40:24 spikebike: yeah it is considering I have seen PDA/Phones with 850-1100mah Jul 12 04:40:28 then again I guess with a 640x480, 400 Mhz cpu, graphics accelerator, gps, 2 acceleromters, wifi, bluetooth etc... Jul 12 04:40:48 hmm my nokia 770 is prolly the closest.. I'll check the battery Jul 12 04:41:49 hmm put a solar collector on the rear of the NEO Jul 12 04:42:07 can't tell it says only 3.7V Jul 12 04:42:45 spikebike: its 1100 mah Jul 12 04:42:55 ah, pretty sure my gps is as well Jul 12 04:43:17 ah 1000 even Jul 12 04:43:54 I'm hoping the neo feels... like a phone... I don't mind it's a big bigger/thicker than others Jul 12 04:44:09 spikebike: you can get a 1500mah unit from the n800 on ebay Jul 12 04:44:41 interesting, I'm really happy with the n770 battery life Jul 12 04:45:08 even after 3 hours with the display on and the gps going I usually arrive with a fully battery Jul 12 04:45:11 spikebike: makes you wonder how long the neo will last with some decent power management Jul 12 04:45:34 we can hack the power mgmt Jul 12 04:45:46 make it last forever Jul 12 04:46:03 ferric: yeah, 2 weeks on a single charge in wait stait Jul 12 04:46:07 state* Jul 12 04:46:12 yea Jul 12 04:46:44 right now many of the PDA phones just dont last Jul 12 04:46:48 kinda surprised they went with a video accelerator Jul 12 04:47:08 especially with video accel on the cpu so common.. not to mention the faster cpu Jul 12 04:47:12 if we can get the neo working for a week it would be a major bonus Jul 12 04:48:06 spikebike: there are up and down sides with set chipsets also some have poor FOSS drivr support Jul 12 04:48:11 ups* Jul 12 04:48:20 set chipsets? Jul 12 04:48:31 spike, did you order a gta01? Jul 12 04:48:44 yeah, some restrict you to certain io stuff others dont then you have the cost Jul 12 04:48:57 nah, thinking of waiting to the gta02 Jul 12 04:49:02 or at least a more mature/reviews gta01 Jul 12 04:49:22 yeah. GTA01 barely dial right now Jul 12 04:49:26 oh well, i was looking forward to seeing what kind of hacks you would do to one :) Jul 12 04:49:26 dials* Jul 12 04:49:45 galexande: anything you want Jul 12 04:49:48 I don't really need much more than dials Jul 12 04:49:54 my current phone does little else Jul 12 04:50:11 but I'd want decent battery life, reliability, etc. Jul 12 04:50:12 i think there's a huge market for a cheap phone that dials, and has a sane UI Jul 12 04:50:54 I was hoping the motorola electronic ink phone was cool for $50 Jul 12 04:50:57 not being sold here Jul 12 04:50:58 ferric: yeah, I have a feeling one of the big three makes a phone with a big screen large text and basically dials and thats it, its sold on Europe Jul 12 04:51:08 in* Jul 12 04:51:10 very simple, great battery life, great loudness, great reception, not much else Jul 12 04:51:17 that's the hard part to do Jul 12 04:51:22 good reception Jul 12 04:51:31 nokia does a fairly good job, actually Jul 12 04:51:37 ferric: I think LinuxDevices had an article on a Motorola that featured a black/white e-paper display, and had a very streamlined feature set Jul 12 04:51:51 yup, same one Jul 12 04:51:54 yeah the e-ink phone Jul 12 04:51:56 the nokia 770 has amazing wifi Jul 12 04:52:04 laptops usually get 2-3 aps Jul 12 04:52:11 Jason1: yeah, the standby time on it is huge too Jul 12 04:52:11 770 gets a dozen or more in the same place Jul 12 04:52:32 e-ink can run for nearly a month Jul 12 04:52:46 I think it's zero Jul 12 04:52:53 only for chances Jul 12 04:53:04 er changes Jul 12 04:53:10 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5567800205.html Jul 12 04:53:30 spikebike: its funny one of the main complaints with the n770 was poor wifi performance Jul 12 04:53:43 really? Jul 12 04:53:47 never heard that Jul 12 04:53:52 yeah, they fixed it in the n800 Jul 12 04:53:54 it sucked .. Jul 12 04:54:05 about 6 friends got em with the last price drop, all seem amazed Jul 12 04:54:08 spikebike: AFAIK, the battery life is horrible on the Neo Jul 12 04:54:08 as have I Jul 12 04:54:33 CM not to surprising, hopefully the gta02 is better Jul 12 04:54:46 is teh gta01 the same battery? Hell it might not even be sleeping Jul 12 04:54:46 spikebike: n800 has a faster cpu bigger battery and new wifi setup and the screen is brighter Jul 12 04:55:00 i thought it had a 1200mAh Li-Ion Jul 12 04:55:01 A faster processor and gpu will surely help Jul 12 04:55:13 linux_galore: yeah, and is more fragile, somes with no screen protection, and doesn't sleep as well Jul 12 04:55:15 which should be plenty with no wifi Jul 12 04:55:27 I think the n770 has a beautiful screen Jul 12 04:55:36 I usually run it at fairly low brightness Jul 12 04:55:36 codyl|dinner: It has, but the P0 guys says worst case it's only lasting a few hours Jul 12 04:55:46 The screen sucks a lot of battery Jul 12 04:56:01 770 allows for one second access, slip off, wake up, usable. Jul 12 04:56:02 CM, something sounds HORRIBLY wrong with that Jul 12 04:56:07 one second sleep Jul 12 04:56:11 can leave it for days Jul 12 04:56:17 needs dynamic tick patch Jul 12 04:56:23 n800 = play with a zippered bag that doesn't protect that well Jul 12 04:56:27 is suspend/resume working? Jul 12 04:56:49 spikebike: you can get a fold out wallet cover Jul 12 04:57:08 n800 = laptop durability Jul 12 04:57:21 n770 = better than most cell phones Jul 12 04:57:39 n770 is pretty good for the price Jul 12 04:57:43 codyl: No, the power management is still bad at the neo Jul 12 04:57:45 I wish nokia upgraded the n770 with the n800 cpu/dsp/ram/flash Jul 12 04:57:53 CM, sad.. Jul 12 04:57:58 find a cheap mobile with wifi and a n770 and your have everything Jul 12 04:57:59 Yes, that worries me Jul 12 04:58:00 cm why would faster cpu/gpu help? Jul 12 04:58:27 spikebike: Because it can do what it's supposed to do faster, then go back to sleep again Jul 12 04:58:43 linux_galore, hmm, I thinking gta02, or maybe a theoretically future nokia n series with gsm Jul 12 04:58:43 It needs to be sleeping a lot more of the time Jul 12 04:58:50 * CM fixes some breakfast Jul 12 04:58:55 seems like the graphics accel might suck way too much power Jul 12 04:59:17 seems like many of the CPUs have video accell, seems WAY lower power for the simple stuff like bitblt Jul 12 04:59:18 did someone see the video were they themed a n770 to have the GUI setup and sounds of a startrek data entry pad Jul 12 04:59:27 on youtube Jul 12 04:59:31 sounds vaguely familar Jul 12 05:00:05 cool. xoo package got approved on fedora. I've build it for devel. F-7 failed to koji build with a timeout Jul 12 05:00:11 spikebike: well dont get a N95 unlesss you dock it every night to retrieve podcasts Jul 12 05:00:19 or maybe a razr2 or z6 if motorola catches a clue Jul 12 05:00:51 now i just need harald/sean to approve the use of the nei/openmoko skins Jul 12 05:00:57 spikebike: Z6 is locked in though, may aswell get a A1200 ming pda/phone and save $300 Jul 12 05:01:15 yeah the 1200 looks pretty nice as well Jul 12 05:01:32 there's rumors of a usa version so you don't have to hack it to be able to read the menus Jul 12 05:01:33 LetoTo: stefan_schmidt did the qemu Neo skin, I think Jul 12 05:01:34 spikebike: ive used a ming its actually really nice for the money Jul 12 05:01:38 yeah Jul 12 05:01:42 looks that way. Jul 12 05:01:45 Have you used the 1200? Jul 12 05:01:50 yes Jul 12 05:01:51 A1200 ROCKS Jul 12 05:01:53 cm: but he doesnt own the copyright :) Jul 12 05:02:04 Hehe, true true :) Jul 12 05:02:08 so if I buy one and it shows up, what do I have to do to make it useful? Jul 12 05:02:14 Isn't it in chinese or something? Jul 12 05:02:19 spikebike: for the money you pay for a ming its actually very good and it runs Linux Jul 12 05:02:28 spikebike, takes two seconds to change the language Jul 12 05:02:39 from the phone or reflashing it? Jul 12 05:02:49 cool, someone bid on my parawireless phone. So in a week I'll have the money and got rid of it and will be able to get the openmoko instead :) Jul 12 05:02:51 settings -> language -> english Jul 12 05:02:51 spikebike: looks very techie too so you get geek points Jul 12 05:02:51 runs linux... but can I actually program it? Jul 12 05:03:05 codyl wow, had no idea Jul 12 05:03:18 hahaha Jul 12 05:03:33 spikebike, if you would like to know that in chinese- i can help Jul 12 05:03:35 I see giant discussions about hacked firmware, etc. Jul 12 05:03:40 I dont like the name though "Ming" sounds like "minge" Jul 12 05:03:51 i hacked mine to turn on the EDGE radio Jul 12 05:03:57 motorola announced a quad band version for the english market with edge Jul 12 05:04:02 codyl where are you Jul 12 05:04:09 fc6 xoo build is queued up too Jul 12 05:04:12 spikebike huh .. ? Jul 12 05:04:25 where are you physically? Jul 12 05:04:29 spikebike: no its pretty locked up, there are people hacking the A1200 though Jul 12 05:04:42 spikebike, Mountain View, CA Jul 12 05:04:54 ah, I'm in davis, ca Jul 12 05:05:03 im near google Jul 12 05:05:20 sad that the a1200 is locked down Jul 12 05:05:29 (actually more important, im near castro street- yummy chinese food) Jul 12 05:05:43 spikebike, you can still run apps on it- not that hard Jul 12 05:05:58 and personally and I use so many java apps on it Jul 12 05:06:06 which seamless work as if they were Qt apps Jul 12 05:06:08 spikebike: well it does everything you want though, they put tons of software on the thing Jul 12 05:06:08 codyl, How durable is that clear plastic cover? Jul 12 05:06:19 Jason1, still unscratched after a year Jul 12 05:06:35 thats sounding tempting, where would you buy a ming? Jul 12 05:06:50 spikebike: heard someone has got a terminal working on a ming Jul 12 05:06:55 codyl: I was looking at the a1200 for a while... that was my biggest concern. Then, I found openmoko, and I have been waiting for it for 6 months :) Jul 12 05:07:29 spikebike, various webshops mostly in LA Jul 12 05:07:42 spikebike: they sell the thing all over the world, just googe it ie motorola ming best price Jul 12 05:08:30 they cost about US$200 Jul 12 05:08:46 http://www.cell2get.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=228 $269 Jul 12 05:09:11 spikebike: I pay about that in AUD lol Jul 12 05:09:25 I guess gen 2 of that phone is just hitting... the JUIX platform Jul 12 05:09:43 rokr e2, e6, z6, razr 2 v8 Jul 12 05:09:53 I have a new hobby this week Jul 12 05:09:54 well only the z6 v8 = juix Jul 12 05:10:05 every morning I get up, I check my mailbox for mail from openmoko :) Jul 12 05:10:14 xkr47: lol Jul 12 05:10:46 xkr47: I wish I only checked mine in the morning :) Jul 12 05:11:17 Jason1, yeah ok.. I have new hobbies.. :) Jul 12 05:11:24 Jason1, cg on being nr 1 :) Jul 12 05:11:27 xkr47: LOL Jul 12 05:11:32 spikebike, yupp - fuck iPhone :-P Jul 12 05:11:43 xkr47: thanks, it took alot of work :) Jul 12 05:11:43 codyl, only until it runs openmoko :) Jul 12 05:11:56 xkr47, it will boot new kernels..worth a shot Jul 12 05:11:59 Jason1, a perl script and huge bandwidth for reloading the front page ?-D Jul 12 05:12:09 spikebike: just checked that not a bad price Jul 12 05:12:13 well honestly I'm worried that the /bin won't fully work with the dev on a true and full flavored foundation. Of course this is in regards to the total lack of scalable streams that belong to the 8602 chip that is attached to the larger chip with the you know what Jul 12 05:12:22 thats* Jul 12 05:12:26 one of my favorite nokia 770 aps is maemo mapper Jul 12 05:12:39 awesome maps, tricorder style... without a net connection Jul 12 05:12:48 I guess I could write it in java Jul 12 05:12:49 yeah Jul 12 05:13:01 java rules except if you have to do gui stuff ;-) Jul 12 05:13:03 just need 500-1024 MB of local storage Jul 12 05:13:10 spikebike: I think the Nokia N series will set the new standard for PDA's Jul 12 05:13:17 yes Java is the answer Jul 12 05:13:20 I'm so blind Jul 12 05:13:27 :=) Jul 12 05:13:35 n series = 770/800? Jul 12 05:13:35 heh, run java on the NEO Jul 12 05:13:37 ChumleyEX, that's why openmoko has audio output as well :) Jul 12 05:13:39 or n seris = 75/95? Jul 12 05:13:49 hehe Jul 12 05:13:51 spikebike: 770/800 Jul 12 05:14:03 have you gotten emails on the mailing list lately ? Jul 12 05:14:13 I hope so... after all the palm totally ruled the pda market Jul 12 05:14:16 mostly because of apps Jul 12 05:14:16 xkr47: nope, not one Jul 12 05:14:17 think it's been silent for over a day for me Jul 12 05:14:17 Sun have a java sdk for mobile phones Jul 12 05:14:24 I got 3 about an hour ago Jul 12 05:14:25 being open and devel friendly Jul 12 05:14:29 :/ Jul 12 05:14:33 then nothing Jul 12 05:14:39 is every other pda/cell phone/mp3 player open/devel friendly.... NOOOOOO Jul 12 05:14:43 we should collect money so they get new servers Jul 12 05:14:55 xkr47: just gave 'em all our money :) Jul 12 05:15:05 I mean it just sucks if we can't discuss openmoko on the ml now at it's greatest moment Jul 12 05:15:06 I want some reply saying my order is shipped... :P Jul 12 05:15:14 Jason1, ok but where do I send them :) Jul 12 05:15:17 CM: amen Jul 12 05:15:54 Im suprised they didnt just distribute through a third party company that specialises in this type of thing Jul 12 05:16:00 * xkr47 adds churchly chords to that amen Jul 12 05:16:47 CM: soon enough hopefully. Are they still projected to be shipped the 16th? Jul 12 05:16:52 FIC is not small company Jul 12 05:16:57 not a* Jul 12 05:16:59 CM, ME TOO Jul 12 05:17:06 daMaestro: Do they still sell motherboards? Jul 12 05:17:16 Jason1, I got some mail from the sales team that some issue I talked about on the ml will not be handled until.. friday I think it was Jul 12 05:17:21 daMaestro: fic arent distributing it though openmoko in ca are Jul 12 05:17:33 http://giyf.us/fic Jul 12 05:17:35 so I guess they're all taking a week off :) Jul 12 05:17:38 still Jul 12 05:18:19 http://finance.google.com/finance?q=FIC LOL Jul 12 05:18:21 I better go stuff to finnish of Jul 12 05:18:28 "for ubercool"... Jul 12 05:18:31 xkr47: LOL Im sure thats not the case, but the soon I get my phone, the better :) Jul 12 05:18:38 "For the ubercool interactive charts, you need to install the Macromedia Flash Player Jul 12 05:18:38 Tip: You can drag the chart. " Jul 12 05:19:12 daMaestro, google is not afraid of being teeny Jul 12 05:19:17 :) Jul 12 05:19:49 heh everybody should get one share of FIC with their purchase ;-) Jul 12 05:19:57 the NEO will need a flash plugin Jul 12 05:20:11 * daMaestro pukes just a little Jul 12 05:20:16 I will do fine without flash Jul 12 05:20:25 is it even possible? Jul 12 05:20:29 but I do hope somebody works on it tho, flash is good for the masses Jul 12 05:20:29 daMaestro: yeah but many media sites now use flash Jul 12 05:20:35 is it even possible? Jul 12 05:20:56 "how do you feel today?" "puky" Jul 12 05:21:00 daMaestro: simbian has it Jul 12 05:21:24 "symbia" sounds like an african country or something :) Jul 12 05:21:34 ahh there is an ARM port it seems Jul 12 05:21:47 The N800 has flash, doesn't it? Jul 12 05:22:00 daMaestro: yeah, Im sure you can do flash on the n800 Jul 12 05:22:14 n800 got flash9 like this week Jul 12 05:22:21 had flash 7 or something previously Jul 12 05:22:57 http://www.windowsfordevices.com/articles/AT2364930496.html Jul 12 05:23:00 seems like the n800 is on the hairy edge of usable with flash 9 Jul 12 05:23:09 yeah n800 got flash and skype Jul 12 05:23:10 I think they had to squeeze a bit and use the on board dsp Jul 12 05:23:23 flash 7 + youbut + n800 kinda sucked Jul 12 05:23:57 N800 update -> http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/07/nokia-n800-update-gives-skype-and-flash-support/ Jul 12 05:26:22 N800's a really cool box Jul 12 05:26:30 but at $400 ish is hard to justify over the $129 770 Jul 12 05:26:53 engadge recently posted pics of a possible nokia successor Jul 12 05:27:01 not even a hint of gsm support 8-( Jul 12 05:27:18 some really cool hacks for the nokia 800 Jul 12 05:27:24 someone hacked a /dev/mp3 Jul 12 05:27:36 that used the dsp for decode and has almost zero cpu overhead Jul 12 05:28:04 spikebike, how could they sell you a phone if it had a gsm transceiver ? Jul 12 05:28:44 they might not Jul 12 05:28:55 alas afaik gsm tranceivers don't exist 8-( Jul 12 05:29:09 radio..? Jul 12 05:29:21 n800 actually has a fm radio afaik Jul 12 05:29:31 it wasn't announced with the original releases Jul 12 05:29:35 a cute secret ;-) Jul 12 05:29:40 whats wrong with the word "transceiver" ? Jul 12 05:30:17 er Jul 12 05:30:34 I meant my wished for gps like bt widget (that adds gps to any bt device) doesn't exist for gsm Jul 12 05:30:57 you could build one Jul 12 05:31:09 I wish that a similar gsm device could add voice/data via cellular to bt devices Jul 12 05:32:11 spikebike, if only..that would require a much more open economy Jul 12 05:32:49 nah, just someone hungry enough with some knowledge of bluetooth/gsm bits Jul 12 05:33:00 much easier then say designing a neo1973 ;-) Jul 12 05:33:44 so basically, a box with a phone in it..except it exports the phone functionality over bluetooth ? Jul 12 05:33:58 right Jul 12 05:34:07 so small, cheap, light, no buttons, no display Jul 12 05:34:26 maybe a led to say on, and a led to say has a gsm connection Jul 12 05:34:31 maybe a 3rd for has bt connection Jul 12 05:34:38 much like the 3 lights on my gps Jul 12 05:34:56 spikebike, go for it - http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=478# Jul 12 05:36:13 cool Jul 12 05:36:29 I've got an EE friend that just bought a nokia 770 Jul 12 05:36:35 I'm prod him with that url Jul 12 05:37:24 spikebike, you could do it- just hook that up to an AVR or something, the marry it to a serial bluetooth module Jul 12 05:38:03 sure Jul 12 05:38:09 but I'm not a hardware guy Jul 12 05:38:56 spikebike, ahh- okay then, well then i could do it :-P Jul 12 05:38:59 I'll happily write the contact manager/dialer ;-) Jul 12 05:39:29 python + gtk , couple hours ;-) Jul 12 05:40:05 echo "atdt 555-1212" | /dev/bt Jul 12 05:40:08 ;-) Jul 12 05:40:46 that would be loads of fun for remote sensor projects Jul 12 05:40:53 yeah Jul 12 05:41:02 actuall a 2 way pager is pretty damn close Jul 12 05:41:25 battery, power management, 2 way data Jul 12 05:41:39 is there such a thing as a gsm pager? Jul 12 05:42:21 spikebike, if you are cocaine dealer , sure Jul 12 05:42:26 :-P Jul 12 05:43:11 nah..they still make them Jul 12 05:46:12 http://histon.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008824838331/pdtl/Mobile-wireless/1003278142/GPRS-GSM-Wireless-Modem.htm Jul 12 05:47:14 spikebike, im digging the usb modem Jul 12 05:47:42 its CMDA :-( Jul 12 05:48:05 seems like allowing gsm voice/data for all bt pdas and laptops would be a decent size market Jul 12 05:49:34 ah, tehre's a bunch, but they all assume usb Jul 12 05:50:45 http://estonwireless.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826068010/pdtl/GSM-CDMA/1003378806/HSDPA-Wireless-Modem.htm Jul 12 05:50:52 looks slick, but I've no idea how you connect to it Jul 12 06:16:16 okay, added 'HowTo add a package to the openmoko distribution' to MokoMakefile page. Jul 12 06:17:32 no idea if it's the 'right' way or anything, but it works Jul 12 06:17:38 :) Jul 12 06:17:52 blindcoder: Thanks, I'll try it out as soon as I can Jul 12 06:19:54 blindcoder: thank you, will give it a try too as soon as I get my env working again Jul 12 06:39:17 openmoko even made it into the swiss free newspaper (bad quality article, but at least they talk about it): http://www.20min.ch/ro/life/lifestyle/story/12441465 Jul 12 06:40:03 cool :-) Jul 12 06:42:37 yeah saw a video on youtube showing a Sth American IT show talking about the openmoko yesterday Jul 12 06:46:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8x2It_rHdY Jul 12 06:47:29 no audio ? Jul 12 06:50:26 Off topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhnLZ3Ryccg Jul 12 06:54:17 * aloril wonders what is latest internal rt number (which gives some indication of number of orders, yesterday it was 3054 Jul 12 06:54:59 aloril: 40 millione Linux geeks and 1 phone lol Jul 12 06:56:04 be funny if FIC have serious production shortfalls filling the orders Jul 12 06:56:57 and this is just the GTA01, imagine how big the 02 will be Jul 12 06:57:41 How many of the P1 ppl plan to buy a P2? I'm quite sure I will.. Jul 12 06:57:56 all of them, probably Jul 12 06:58:04 linux_galore: FIC can reportedly produce 100K phones/month ;-) Jul 12 06:58:27 aloril: that all Jul 12 06:58:32 * linux_galore ducks Jul 12 06:58:39 minus the ones that didn't see the "DEVELOPER PREVIEW" - "NOT MASS MARKET" - "VIRTUALLY NO APPS FOR DAY-BY-DAY USE" signs Jul 12 06:59:26 well I can see a heap of 01's hitting ebay when the 02 comes out Jul 12 07:00:00 I think I'll keep mine, and have it in the car or something as a gps Jul 12 07:00:15 CM: keep it as a collectors item Jul 12 07:00:27 yeah, I'm not selling mine Jul 12 07:01:15 * aloril won't be selling GTA01 either Jul 12 07:01:21 either way if openmoko fails or does a blazing business the 01 will be a serious geek collectors item in years to come Jul 12 07:01:44 linux_galore: I guess FIC could subcontract if 100K/month is not enough ;-) Jul 12 07:02:49 so "dont lose the receipt,manual, anything that came with the phone" the more you have the more it will be worth as a collectors item Jul 12 07:02:58 (as SpeedEvil proposed when I said something similar for later times) Jul 12 07:03:08 linux_galore: hehe Jul 12 07:03:28 also, lower the serial number, more valuable it is Jul 12 07:03:48 haha, i can put it on display next to my NeXTstation Jul 12 07:05:04 aloril: dont laugh I collect PDA's I have the complete collection of Apple newtons, my pride and joy is a Apple newton emate 300 with its packaging,manuals carry case the works even has all the cables Jul 12 07:05:22 aloril: I sure hope they send them out accorting to orders placed.. ;) Jul 12 07:05:39 *according to.. Jul 12 07:05:52 cost me $80 from a teacher who never used it (teachers all got one as part of an IT training program here in the 90's) Jul 12 07:06:30 last i looked the things are worth over US$1200 mint Jul 12 07:06:56 www.wegenermedia.com/emate.htm Jul 12 07:07:40 cool Jul 12 07:07:42 linux_galore: That's crazy.. I've never understood these collectors. The only thing I somewhat collect is music, an barely that lately. Don't have time.. :( Jul 12 07:08:09 Fatal_: thats used no box ofen no manuals and they are scratched Jul 12 07:08:17 ok Jul 12 07:08:36 Fatal_: mint means "as you got it in the shop" Jul 12 07:09:41 CM: well I chose PDA's to collect versus PC's because they are pretty small and easily displayed on a wall Jul 12 07:09:52 linux_galore: yeah Jul 12 07:09:59 I do know what mint means :) Jul 12 07:10:35 Fatal_: you can get plenty of scratched up units cheap, education depts baught them by the boat load Jul 12 07:10:48 bought * Jul 12 07:11:04 linux_galore: A friend of mine had 119 Smashing Pumpkins cd's on a wall. All they ever released in all countries except 2 or 3.. Jul 12 07:11:53 CM: well collecting is a bit like hunting in a way, you often have to travel around to find stuff Jul 12 07:12:30 I know.. And a bit like a puzzle too, finding the missing piece. I'm really trying not to get stuck in that. Jul 12 07:12:40 Ive got some TI stuff from the 70's (one even has a printer that works) Jul 12 07:12:40 does somebody here have access to openmoko' s SVN? Jul 12 07:12:40 I know I have it in me.. :P Jul 12 07:12:41 Gwaihir: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 12 07:13:01 Cool. I just have a TI82 calculator Jul 12 07:13:25 CM: lol I used an 82 in school Jul 12 07:13:30 Same here Jul 12 07:13:42 morning Jul 12 07:13:45 man those were the days Jul 12 07:14:05 linux_galore: Programming Snake on it, or Tetris.. Jul 12 07:14:18 CM: I liked the artillery game Jul 12 07:17:24 CM: I used to work for an Apple dealer on Saturday in the early 80's to make some extra cash and someone traded in a TI calculator for a ][C, the ][ is now worth bugger all but that calculator is hard to get Jul 12 07:18:13 linux_galore: Nice deal :) Jul 12 07:18:59 no actually I had a casio fx82 in school Jul 12 07:20:08 * spikebike was in the enemy camp Jul 12 07:20:11 hp48! Jul 12 07:22:01 first TI I used was a 55 Jul 12 07:23:52 my mum has a Casio A1 then she gave it to me, like an idiot I threw it in the bin Jul 12 07:23:57 had* Jul 12 07:28:01 anyone know if the list servers are operational? I subscribed to the gsmd one a number of hours ago and haven't received a conformation email yet. Jul 12 07:29:06 cibomahto: I received a subscribe from about 3 days ago just recently Jul 12 07:29:10 cibomahto: The lists have all been quiet for over a day now Jul 12 07:30:05 Can anyone advise me regarding an idea about an application. I just want to know if it will be feasible to implement using existing APIs Jul 12 07:31:24 I'm sure someone here knows, so just ask :) Jul 12 07:32:48 msg CM thanks, I guess I'll just have to wait it out then Jul 12 07:32:51 oops Jul 12 07:33:03 np :) Jul 12 07:34:06 I plan to make a bluetooth control application which will make use of HID profile of bluetooth standard. It will basically send some key codes to the destination PC so that you can control a specific application. I just want to know if this is feasible. Jul 12 07:34:33 should be Jul 12 07:34:35 slytherin: Without any problems. OpenMoko has the full bluez libs Jul 12 07:36:03 buz: CM: The idea is taken from similar software in Sony Ericsson phones. I just hope they have not patented it. ;-) Jul 12 07:37:06 is it possible to make the bluez library *act* as an HDI device though? Jul 12 07:37:13 I'm not sure how well the j2me <-> bluetooth integreation works, considering that j2me doesn't even work yet Jul 12 07:38:12 CM: I don't think it needs J2ME. cibomahto: It should be possible. That is what I will try to explore. Jul 12 07:38:26 the bluez libs handle my bluetooth keyboard and mouse just fine (HID). Jul 12 07:38:54 And obex filetransfers from my phone :) Jul 12 07:39:09 And all you would be doing is transmitting rather than recieving them. Jul 12 07:39:41 ewanm89_laptop: Yes, all I need to do is transfer some key codes to the target PC. Jul 12 07:41:33 Interesting way to go about that... can the HID profile do bidirectional communication? Jul 12 07:42:04 cibomahto: don't think so. It is basically for input devices, so uni directional. Jul 12 07:43:39 ok, fair enough. I was marginally successful at setting up a simple remote control using the serial profile and a palm pilot device, but HDI would make for a super easy solution Jul 12 07:44:18 Would be fun to support bluetooth printers too Jul 12 07:44:41 cibomahto: Yes, and there won't be any need of server part on target PC as long as it supports bluetooth HID. Jul 12 07:45:40 CM: I plan to make it configurable through some remote control profile. The implementation will be similar to SE phones. Jul 12 07:45:57 slytherin: Nice :) Jul 12 07:46:35 CM: Forgot to mention. It is one of best feature of SE phones and might prove to be a killer app for openmoko. :-) Jul 12 07:47:09 slytherin: What app is that btw? I have a W610i right now Jul 12 07:47:31 CM: Let me check if it has it. Jul 12 07:48:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973/it]] [[Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[P1_Owners]] [[MokoMakefile]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Category:Neo1973_alternate_cases]] [[Torch]] and other changes Jul 12 07:48:29 CM: It is called as remote control. Should be somewhere in Entertainment or Connectivity. Jul 12 07:48:44 Ok :) Jul 12 07:48:54 CM: For further reference, check https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BluetoothRemoteControl Jul 12 07:49:48 * Stephmw perks up at the mention of J2ME Jul 12 07:49:51 hi guys Jul 12 07:51:25 Hi Jul 12 07:51:29 CM: your phone is supported. :-) Jul 12 07:51:35 Stephmw: hi Jul 12 07:52:46 what's with mailing lists? Jul 12 07:54:22 Steohmw: Do you know who is working on integrating a JVM in Openmoko? Jul 12 07:54:39 s/Steohmw/Stephmw/ Jul 12 07:54:40 Kensan meant: Stephmw: Do you know who is working on integrating a JVM in Openmoko? Jul 12 07:54:48 Kensan: there's a couple of separate endeavours that I know of atm Jul 12 07:55:02 Kensan: alas, most don't really chat about what they're up to Jul 12 07:55:25 Kensan: I'm working on getting http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Java up with that kind of info Jul 12 07:56:22 did harald killed sysadmins? :p Jul 12 07:57:07 Stephmw: did you read http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-July/001055.html ? Jul 12 07:57:24 openmoko: 03andrew * r2379 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Only power the modem up/down if it's there. Jul 12 07:57:52 Kensan: yeah, I know about jamvm+classpath being in the OE repo Jul 12 07:58:16 Kensan: I think woglinde is one of them, but there's more people on the mailinglists Jul 12 07:58:26 The phoneme guys for example Jul 12 07:58:30 Stephmw: Is it being considered by any of the projects? Jul 12 07:58:50 I'm a little behind the mailing lists. Jul 12 08:00:32 aye, woglinde is getting phoneme (cacaoVM+cldc) into OE Jul 12 08:00:45 there's also MIDPath, built on top of phoneME and GNU Classpath Jul 12 08:01:04 the problem is that none of these efforts is yet far enough along to need coordination Jul 12 08:01:16 for inclusion into OpenMoko that is Jul 12 08:01:35 (the individual projects are certain to welcome contributors *g*) Jul 12 08:01:58 Stephmw: ah. I've seen the prototype that the poster was refering to and the memory footprint was very small. Jul 12 08:02:27 Kensan: that's typical of J2ME VMs Jul 12 08:02:53 Stephmw: JamVM compared to other VMs. Jul 12 08:03:28 Kensan: I think you need to be careful when you say footprint though... RAM or ROM? Which class set? Are you comparing to JIT-enabled VMs? Jul 12 08:04:02 Stephmw: both actually. Runtime memory and filesize. Jul 12 08:05:10 Stephmw: but Java is not my primary interest ;) Jul 12 08:05:50 Kensan: it is mine ;-) my paid work is J2ME API development Jul 12 08:06:09 Kensan: ... but I can't start hacking on OpenMoko's Java until I quit my current job Jul 12 08:06:18 ... so I work on the Wiki in the meantime Jul 12 08:06:23 Stephmw: Isn't Sun's official J2ME distribution now GPL? Jul 12 08:06:39 slytherin: sure is Jul 12 08:07:27 slytherin: I'm not allowed to touch it atm Jul 12 08:07:38 Stephmw: So isn't any working on getting it on openmoko? Jul 12 08:07:57 what is J2ME api development? Jul 12 08:08:07 slytherin: scroll up. phoneME is exactly what you're asking about Jul 12 08:08:17 Stephmw: Ok. :-) Jul 12 08:08:36 keesj: somebody's got to actually write the code to implement the APIs, Java and native ;-) Jul 12 08:08:56 keesj: Sun's reference implementation isn't particularly good code Jul 12 08:09:18 keesj: so people either just use the specs (and that's really not enough) or they start with Sun's and hack it Jul 12 08:09:31 Stephmw: neither are vendor implementations Jul 12 08:09:47 keesj: I wouldn't dream of stating otherwise :) Jul 12 08:09:59 keesj: J2ME is a mess Jul 12 08:10:36 Stephmw: I guess that is why there are so many of the VM implementations. :-) Jul 12 08:11:19 slytherin: aye, another issue is the vague specs (too many optional items) and the plethora of JSRs (feature specifications) Jul 12 08:11:29 but not to worry, it'll get there Jul 12 08:12:24 Stephmw: May be I will help you some day. For now I will concentrate on the remote control thing. :-) Jul 12 08:12:32 * Stephmw nods Jul 12 08:13:00 * Stephmw checks his "I can't wait to quit" calendar... 22 workdays left Jul 12 08:13:45 Stephmw: Quit from what? Jul 12 08:13:53 slytherin: my current job Jul 12 08:14:41 Stephmw: I don't know when I will dump software as a mean to earn a living and start working on FOSS as hobby. :-( Jul 12 08:15:36 slytherin: it's quite possible to do booth Jul 12 08:16:10 keesj, tell us more... Jul 12 08:16:15 Aye, it sure is, but can be warying. Jul 12 08:16:22 * Stephmw tickles mdt Jul 12 08:17:45 Surely it depends on your employer? Jul 12 08:18:14 I wish the neo touch screen could do multiple finger input: http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86 Jul 12 08:18:20 depends on the employer, the work you do, the OSS work you want to do, your wife... your kids... Jul 12 08:18:27 etc ,etc Jul 12 08:18:42 One size doesn't fit all Jul 12 08:19:22 good morning Jul 12 08:21:03 mdt: are you serious? Jul 12 08:21:53 keesj, shure... Jul 12 08:23:01 * CM gets some coffee Jul 12 08:26:24 first off all I guess that any company that uses open-source has to "give" back a minimum ,so that is the least open-source envolvement you can have. there are so many companies living from servicing open-source that I can't imagine it was a really question. Jul 12 08:28:42 I have spend the 6 of the last 8 years developing open-source software for money(I must confess it was mostly java). Jul 12 08:29:24 perhaps it's different in the US? Jul 12 08:30:42 keesj: I'll have to take your details for when I start looking for work at the end of the year :) Jul 12 08:30:52 the US is weird in so many ways... Jul 12 08:30:58 * Stephmw is happy he lives in Europe Jul 12 08:32:20 if I was not happy at my current jobs I would try the nokia osso, I really hope that the openmoko also will take off. Jul 12 08:33:22 speaking of openmoko. I was wondering if there are docs about running on the smdk2440? Jul 12 08:34:01 * buz wonders if anyone is really working on java? Jul 12 08:34:06 Can anyone guide me to get the development environment setup on Windows? Jul 12 08:34:15 buz: There are many. Jul 12 08:34:16 thats a good one .. Jul 12 08:34:45 so wheres the code? Jul 12 08:35:00 buz: Java is still preferred (over .NET) when it comes to business critical server applications. Jul 12 08:35:26 buz: The code is buried under NDA. :-) Jul 12 08:35:44 buz: working "on java" as on the java specs etc? Jul 12 08:36:19 keesj: as on getting java to openmoko Jul 12 08:36:27 slytherin: hmmm? what NDA? Jul 12 08:36:30 A really cool application would be to view mobile tv but I suspect that won't happen for a while. Jul 12 08:36:38 Non Disclosure Agreement Jul 12 08:36:42 Stephmw: have you done stuff with jazelle? Jul 12 08:36:51 darmou: re-read my question :) Jul 12 08:37:07 keesj: only as far as knowing the platform I work on uses it Jul 12 08:37:10 Stephmw: oops sorry my bad Jul 12 08:37:12 don't you have to sell your soul to get a look at jazelle docs? Jul 12 08:37:16 keesj: I don't work on the VM itself Jul 12 08:37:28 Stephmw: He asked me where is the code. The project for which I was working until recently is not open source. :-) Jul 12 08:37:31 s3c doesnt have jazelle right? Jul 12 08:37:52 slytherin: ah ok. Not specifically about Java the runtime/language then :) Jul 12 08:37:54 there are S3Cs based on the ARM926EJ-S, those have Jazelle Jul 12 08:38:08 Stephmw: No Jul 12 08:38:14 but both the GTA01 and GTA02 come with an ARM920T Jul 12 08:38:51 drath: and yes, you have to sell your soul to get Jazelle docs Jul 12 08:39:08 not to mention the jazelle docs Jul 12 08:39:10 er license Jul 12 08:39:20 * Stephmw nods Jul 12 08:39:26 sad Jul 12 08:39:31 Aye, Jazelle isn't worth the hassle for an open source solution. Jul 12 08:39:34 you'd think they'd use it to just sell more CPUs Jul 12 08:40:00 mornin Jul 12 08:41:47 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5947466557.html but pxa WTF ? wonder what it costs Jul 12 08:44:03 heh, amazing how fast everyone is at pointing out that openmoko isn't free enough (in their opinion) Jul 12 08:45:06 what are they complaining about now? Can't flash the DSP? The GSM chip? Jul 12 08:45:16 "I suspect [the Goliath boards] will be attractive to hobbyists who want more control/openness/flexibility than something like OpenMoko [story] might give. Jul 12 08:45:24 heh Jul 12 08:45:31 marketing at it's finest Jul 12 08:45:46 Hmmm, I'd be curious to know which bits of the openmoko is not open. Jul 12 08:45:53 the good 'old' mc75... Jul 12 08:46:00 ummm gpsd Jul 12 08:46:11 thats about all that I can think of off hand Jul 12 08:46:21 spikebike: is that the GSM module? Jul 12 08:46:22 not sure if thats requires for gps or just agps Jul 12 08:46:25 Are developers not provided with an incredibly detailed API was provided. Jul 12 08:46:34 drath: "I bet most if not all the OpenMoko software could be made to work pretty easily on the Goliath." Jul 12 08:46:40 wibbit: no, it's something else Jul 12 08:46:44 just below the "it is too closed!" Jul 12 08:46:45 can't have it both ways ;-) Jul 12 08:46:46 wibbit: look it up on the wiki Jul 12 08:47:03 hi there. Jul 12 08:47:04 Kero: heh, yeah, i was just about to mention that Jul 12 08:47:13 bedboi: hi Jul 12 08:47:16 drath: so clearly the person has no idea what he is talking about Jul 12 08:47:19 the openness they refer to must be how you can order the parts and build your own design Jul 12 08:47:38 explaining how their cto failed to see that OpenMko perfectly fits its role, being the software platform for a multitude of devices, once there are sufficiently open hardware platforms Jul 12 08:47:52 and obviously, you talk AT commands to the gsm module. right. Jul 12 08:48:04 well, could be fun to play with :) Jul 12 08:48:17 but I'll have enough fun playing with a P1 for a while :D Jul 12 08:48:46 spikebike, the closed gpsd is needed for non-assisted gps as well, it's the one that does all the gps claculations. Hence reverse-engineering Jul 12 08:49:07 or just waiting for the hardware to rev to a full GPS chip Jul 12 08:49:14 I'm not offended by it Jul 12 08:49:20 just mentioning the only non-open part I know Jul 12 08:49:32 the more hardware the merrier is what we're supposed to say :-) Jul 12 08:50:41 with them, you get EDGE and WLAN in this month, but no hope of getting a phone case etc. Jul 12 08:52:00 so what temps do you people have your offices at? Jul 12 08:52:01 I find 21degC is nice t-shirt temperature, the boss reckons 23-24deg is better, but that makes me sweat Jul 12 08:52:41 gsm is also not open Jul 12 08:52:50 well sort of Jul 12 08:52:53 ah, you had that already Jul 12 08:52:57 it's just a different chip you talk AT to Jul 12 08:53:02 right Jul 12 08:53:20 well you don't have the source code to the CPU design either Jul 12 08:53:35 but there's a doc on how to program both... seems plenty open Jul 12 08:53:45 if you can't flash it yourself, then non-free firmware isn't non-free =) Jul 12 08:54:02 ewon: About 20 here, perfect t-shirt temp :) Jul 12 08:54:36 gpsd will never be open (officially) due to ITAR, no? Jul 12 08:54:53 whatever Jul 12 08:55:04 plenty of other gps chips allow you to talk NMEA Jul 12 08:55:28 this one does as well - but only on a pipe to the gpsd Jul 12 08:55:46 so from the application perspective it is really no different to a "normal" gps Jul 12 08:56:17 just change the name of the device from /dev/ttySsomething to /var/run/gpsd and don't try to set a baudrate :) Jul 12 08:57:19 dunno seems like the driver and chip are justified by agps Jul 12 08:57:25 and agps seems pretty lame Jul 12 08:59:06 how cool would that be D: Jul 12 09:00:04 when GPS sucked, tracked few sats, and took forever to sync AGPS sounded great Jul 12 09:00:06 gpsd needs to be like gpsd... Jul 12 09:00:35 then GPSs got better, 32 channels, much lower power, much better sensitivity, and much better time to lock Jul 12 09:00:38 Goliath is a bit different market, I would say Neo1973 and it complement each other (and yeah, they could use OpenMoko as article talks about) Jul 12 09:01:02 so now sub 40 second cold boot to lock is standard Jul 12 09:01:03 sure its allow easier hardware hacking, but Neo1973 is more ready for consumers Jul 12 09:01:45 heh gumstix and friends are for robotis and deeply embedded stuff Jul 12 09:01:57 not for things you carry every day Jul 12 09:02:11 not to mention they are pretty damn pricey Jul 12 09:02:23 Is there any list of softwares available on Neo1973 for current version? Jul 12 09:02:24 I think the phone + gps + cpu + display equiv is like 1k Jul 12 09:02:47 hehe and even links to viral OpemMoko add: http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/6892/ Jul 12 09:02:48 still leaves you without a case, battery, or buttons Jul 12 09:03:04 spikebike: ouch Jul 12 09:03:33 they are just leaching on the publicity... not competing in any way Jul 12 09:03:56 * aloril guesses they are somewhat worried about Neo1973 anyway despite being different market (maybe exposed ports in Neo1973 worry ...?) Jul 12 09:04:21 i wonder what resolution the gumstix lcd is Jul 12 09:04:28 4.3" sounds neat Jul 12 09:04:48 competitors are things like the iphone (not really a smart phone), green phone (programmable but not as open) and things like the new motorola linux/JUIX phone Jul 12 09:04:59 gumstix are probably mostly worried because openmoko might sell the board alone Jul 12 09:05:24 i'd love a neo with 4" vga screen Jul 12 09:05:36 spikebike: I wouldn't place the Moto as competition really... the linux/JUIX aspect isn't really accessible Jul 12 09:05:58 yeah moto could be any number of embedded os instead, wouldnt be much different Jul 12 09:06:45 Stephmw:agreed... at least you can devel java for it... as you can for many phoens Jul 12 09:06:51 phones Jul 12 09:07:09 so at least for today openmoko is pretty unique Jul 12 09:07:29 dunno, closest might actually be the nokia 770/800 Jul 12 09:07:32 no gsm of course Jul 12 09:07:44 buz: that'll be in the media player device... Jul 12 09:07:47 but at least you can emulate them, all apis are documented, they run linux, etc. Jul 12 09:07:53 Jul 12 09:08:19 unless the media players have gsm i dont care Jul 12 09:08:28 essentially a neo with larger screen would be nice Jul 12 09:08:33 more screen, less case ;) Jul 12 09:09:04 well, let's get these ones delivered first, eh... Jul 12 09:09:25 i guess you could add a bigger screen to neo? Jul 12 09:10:03 Is there any list of softwares available on Neo1973 for current version? Jul 12 09:13:48 the nokia N800 is more complementary than competitive with the Neo Jul 12 09:14:29 http://www.tpo.biz/ENG/business-eng/products&applications-PDA-2.htm the 800x480 would be particularly tasty Jul 12 09:14:36 if the hardware could drive it :( Jul 12 09:14:56 mm got me t-mobile gprs working again Jul 12 09:15:01 last time i used that was ... years ago Jul 12 09:15:06 who makes the neo screens anyway Jul 12 09:16:48 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#LCD_Module_.28LCM.29 Jul 12 09:20:03 oh thats the small brother of the one above Jul 12 09:20:28 for the people who were complaining about it not bein transreflective, it looks to me as if there are entirely comparable transreflective ones at tpo Jul 12 09:21:39 transflectives are dimmer Jul 12 09:21:50 but who knows.. the display may be obscenely bright to begin with Jul 12 09:23:54 Who is currently using actually phone and tell me good it is. :-) Jul 12 09:25:09 what do you mean by *good* Jul 12 09:29:57 it is obscenely bright but still barely readable in sunlight Jul 12 09:31:08 * tuukkah wonders how much more the transreflective screen would cost Jul 12 09:33:31 probably not that much more than the one in there Jul 12 09:33:44 however if there's any physical differences it would be problematic Jul 12 09:33:45 Psi: do these work: sms send/rcv, dial out/in? Jul 12 09:33:58 no sms yet afaik Jul 12 09:34:01 the 480x640 transreflective from that manufacturer is 3,5" Jul 12 09:34:01 as far as i know there is no SMS application at all Jul 12 09:34:04 the dialer supposedly works Jul 12 09:34:37 tuukkah: they have 2.8" but not under phone Jul 12 09:34:51 oh wait Jul 12 09:34:53 i'm stupid Jul 12 09:35:05 i skipped cplumns ;) Jul 12 09:35:49 Psi: Overall performance Jul 12 09:35:59 i dont have a phone yet Jul 12 09:36:22 search in the wiki isn't returning results anymore :-( Jul 12 09:38:23 basicly if there's any SMS app for Linux it could be used on the Neo too Jul 12 09:39:53 tuukkah: how about gnome-phone-manager? Jul 12 09:41:30 slytherin, if it's not too resource intensive Jul 12 09:42:13 i imagin gnokii would work fine for sms - but there must be dozens of others Jul 12 09:42:14 sending and receiving sms in a quick and dirty way isn't hard via the passthrough mode of the gsmd, if quick and dirty is what you want Jul 12 09:42:25 tuukkah: Can't say. I have used it sometimes. Jul 12 09:42:48 Yeah, what mjr said. Jul 12 09:43:16 so all that is missing is a nice gui? Jul 12 09:44:21 http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/mdsms/ Jul 12 09:45:09 this diagram shows 16 virtual serial ports to the GSM modem, so i wonder if that means we can use 16 GSM apps at the same time: http://people.openmoko.org/sean/specifications/images/gsm_interface.png Jul 12 09:45:26 Text SMS is sent through general AT command-compatible GSM modems (like the Siemens M1/M20, etc.)..... Jul 12 09:46:49 tuukkah: that reminds me of a question that I had. If someone is on a call can the Neo still pick up a second incoming call and answer it automatically (with a voicemail prompt or similar) Jul 12 09:47:06 I think that it can, just not sure Jul 12 09:47:12 (Oh to have a 'phone to be able to play with this stuff) Jul 12 09:47:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Milo/en]] [[User:Milo]] [[Translation_HOWTO/it]] [[Talk:P1_Owners]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:Translation]] [[Development_resources/it]] [[Advanced_End-user/it]] [[Basic_End-user/it]] [[Java]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973/it]] Jul 12 09:47:57 "voicemail prompt" sounds problematic as that would mean handling the audio of two calls at the same time Jul 12 09:49:18 will the operator give you two calls at the same time? Jul 12 09:49:52 well, can't you normally put calls on hold and switch between them? Jul 12 09:51:51 only one active call at a time, one would think Jul 12 09:52:23 Why would one think that? Jul 12 09:53:32 that's how it usually goes, and there's no reason to think the gsm chipset in neo is twice as capable Jul 12 09:54:02 hell, it isn't even class a gprs Jul 12 09:54:45 I don't quite follow what you are referring to as 'active call'? I can't juggle two calls with call waiting etc. normally. Jul 12 09:55:11 sorry, s/can't/can/ Jul 12 09:55:13 active as in voice being transmitted Jul 12 09:55:44 Ah OK, then yeah I can't see that happening, or see a need. Jul 12 09:55:49 mjr: multiple PDP contexts are becoming common nowdays though Jul 12 09:57:19 jgm, perhaps you were thinking of how it normally works. if the phone is busy, callers are directed to the voicemail at the operator Jul 12 09:57:46 tuukkah: Not nessecarily, there's call waiting. Jul 12 09:58:29 hads, i mean, that's how voicemail is normally implemented Jul 12 09:58:38 and not in the phone Jul 12 09:59:13 OK sure, agreed, I must be having difficulty understanding people tonight :) Jul 12 10:00:41 what we need in openmoko is a nice gui for configuring the settings :-) Jul 12 10:01:49 any news on the customs clearance? Jul 12 10:01:50 tuukkah: what? echo "5000" > /dev/net/gprs/timeout isn't usable enough? Jul 12 10:02:46 Stephmw, i didn't mean to talk about gprs, i meant the setting of what happens if someone tries to call you Jul 12 10:03:17 tuukkah: I was kidding... echo "redirect" > /dev/callhandling/busyaction Jul 12 10:03:19 but, i imagine no command is usable enough as the phone doesn't have a keyboard ;-) Jul 12 10:03:59 the running joke is that diehard Linux enthusiasts would die rather than use a GUI for anything.. Jul 12 10:04:01 Stephmw, i'm afraid at the moment some special AT command is needed Jul 12 10:04:03 does too a virtual one :รพ Jul 12 10:04:21 a *real* keyboard =) Jul 12 10:04:34 one which you touch-type Jul 12 10:04:41 what self-respecting geek thinks virtual things aren't real? :รพ Jul 12 10:05:09 Bwahaha Jul 12 10:05:21 yeah, i've noticed we like to speak of things being "physical" Jul 12 10:08:27 mjr: not a great deal more info, but for multi-party, call holding, waiting, etc, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_services#Supplementary_Services Jul 12 10:11:48 Stephmw, yeah, those things sure Jul 12 10:13:08 but you don't implement the features in the phone, you just use these "secret" codes to tell the operator what to do: http://www.geckobeach.com/cellular/secrets/gsmcodes.php Jul 12 10:14:31 those just configure the gsm part Jul 12 10:14:43 they don't actually handle dealing with the situations Jul 12 10:15:11 isn't that what i'm saying? Jul 12 10:15:32 well you need out of band signalling to actually put a call on hold for instance Jul 12 10:16:13 ok, so that's yet another use case :-) Jul 12 10:16:22 actually, this is all kind of out of band anyway Jul 12 10:16:22 didn't get the beginning of the discussion, but are you talking about gsm0710? Jul 12 10:16:38 mdt, these stuffs yes Jul 12 10:16:47 when you dial a number that would use the same channels as the gsm control anyway Jul 12 10:16:53 i have a daemon for that - interested? :) Jul 12 10:17:00 gsmd? Jul 12 10:17:05 noe Jul 12 10:17:16 gsmd is a gsm0707 thing Jul 12 10:17:19 mm? Jul 12 10:17:26 oh, thats right, its supposed to be a kernel driver Jul 12 10:17:30 gsm0710 is about multiplexing Jul 12 10:17:45 that's a aproach i would not like Jul 12 10:17:52 i strongly agree Jul 12 10:17:55 but who knows how itll work out Jul 12 10:18:20 mdt, can you explain the 0710 part of this image: http://people.openmoko.org/sean/specifications/images/gsm_interface.png Jul 12 10:18:40 there is a lot things todo, timeout, reconn etc, etc... this is better done in user space. linux has /dev/pty for that... Jul 12 10:18:49 07.10 is a protocol for muxing multiple pseudo-serial streams into one serial stream Jul 12 10:19:04 yeah thats why i think it doesn't belong in kernel space Jul 12 10:19:10 its more than just a driver, its also an app Jul 12 10:19:10 agree Jul 12 10:19:41 you know what speed the gsm modem is running at (configurable)? Jul 12 10:19:42 what does the number 16 limit there? Jul 12 10:19:48 16 channels top Jul 12 10:20:02 and what things would tie up a channel? Jul 12 10:20:04 you don't need 16 - 4 areenough for mostly all cases Jul 12 10:20:22 gprs is one Jul 12 10:20:25 command channel (AT), gprs network data, voice data (PCM) if you route from the cpu Jul 12 10:20:29 sms write/receive another Jul 12 10:20:43 you can have a number of at channels for things like mms/sms/dialing/phonebook Jul 12 10:20:47 one for accessing via gnokii on the desktop computer? Jul 12 10:20:55 gnokii? Jul 12 10:21:02 tuukkah, wouldn't do that, but if you like, yes Jul 12 10:21:18 tuukkah, i would do that on the phone and speak sync ml Jul 12 10:21:22 or would gnokii need the unmultiplexed channel? Jul 12 10:21:37 nothing needs the unmultiplexed channel unless it does its own muxing Jul 12 10:21:48 tuukkah, no it gets one channel Jul 12 10:22:15 ok so i think i understand this at least somewhat right Jul 12 10:23:00 syncml + funambol Jul 12 10:23:00 strange - on the pic there is no ppp for gprs using a channel - so no ip? Jul 12 10:23:09 would be nice... Jul 12 10:23:11 ppp is in there Jul 12 10:23:21 not shown, would be beneath gprs0 Jul 12 10:23:36 well.. more precisely, would *be* gprs0 Jul 12 10:23:49 so they do ppp in the kernel too?? Jul 12 10:23:56 ... ppp needs kernel support Jul 12 10:23:57 lol >_> Jul 12 10:24:05 but pppd is user space Jul 12 10:24:14 anrp, gprs0 opened by pppd providing ppp0, right? Jul 12 10:24:22 it has a lot of hooks into the kernel for handling the actual network interface Jul 12 10:24:26 its both Jul 12 10:24:40 okay... Jul 12 10:24:40 gprs0 is probably someone doing s/ppp%d/gprs%d/g Jul 12 10:25:04 but will openmoko have a user space pppd? Jul 12 10:25:11 i'd be surprised if it didn't Jul 12 10:25:17 i suppose it isn't strictly necessary Jul 12 10:25:29 but that would be a lot of logic in the kernel Jul 12 10:25:29 anrp, oh right, they say "gprs0 network device", the character device has a different name Jul 12 10:25:47 okay, i have to leave - see you Jul 12 10:26:00 ;/ Jul 12 10:26:01 you can see here /dev/ttySAC0 here: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GPRS Jul 12 10:26:05 yeah Jul 12 10:26:10 SAC0 is the actual serial port Jul 12 10:26:26 then there's (supposed) to be an in-kernel multiplexer that exports multiple virtual serial ports Jul 12 10:26:34 and takes over SAC0 Jul 12 10:27:15 now /dev/ttyS1 is of course the physical serial port Jul 12 10:27:45 and /dev/ttyTSn are the multiplexed serial ports Jul 12 10:27:48 ya Jul 12 10:28:20 so /dev/ttySAC0 is like one of the ttyTS's but with some grps magic applied Jul 12 10:28:28 er Jul 12 10:28:43 not quite.. Jul 12 10:28:49 oh Jul 12 10:29:03 on x86 /dev/ttyS? are the physical serial ports, on this platform they happen to be /dev/ttySAC? Jul 12 10:29:30 oh, so the diagram has the wrong name Jul 12 10:29:38 it would appear Jul 12 10:30:50 tuukkah: sorry was afk. Reason I was thinking about multiple incoming calls at the same time is to allow things like conference calling, the Neo handling multiple incoming callers in different ways, etc Jul 12 10:31:13 you can't do software conference calling (two active calls to the phone at the same time) Jul 12 10:31:25 you can command the network to bind the two into one phone call though Jul 12 10:31:46 if all the bits along the way support it Jul 12 10:32:32 anrp, can we get a notification of another incoming call and decide whether to give the busy signal, direct to voicemail or bind? Jul 12 10:32:38 you do Jul 12 10:32:49 er. you can't send a busy signal Jul 12 10:32:56 you can ignore or put current on hold and accept Jul 12 10:33:02 or join into conference (iirc) Jul 12 10:33:15 but these are all things you ask the network to do Jul 12 10:33:26 yep Jul 12 10:34:30 Pah so basically we can't get the Neo to handle the call itself if we're already on a call Jul 12 10:34:42 not in fun ways Jul 12 10:34:44 only in basic ways Jul 12 10:36:49 i'm vaguely interested in finding out what happens if 3 people call the same phone at once Jul 12 10:36:53 only vaguely though Jul 12 10:36:56 * anrp wanders off to work Jul 12 10:37:33 anrp: race condition iirc, one will get through Jul 12 10:38:31 hi Jul 12 10:38:38 hey woglinde Jul 12 10:51:01 anrp shouldn't that be specified in the gsm protocol? Jul 12 10:51:23 It is. Jul 12 10:51:36 It's upstream of the phone though Jul 12 10:51:44 So we never see it. Jul 12 10:52:23 The first connection attempt to hit whatever synchronisation mechanism is used gets through. Jul 12 10:54:01 SpeedEvil right and the other connections will get a busy tone from the carrier Jul 12 10:54:09 Yes. Jul 12 10:54:24 Or a call waiting indication Jul 12 10:55:02 SpeedEvil there is no way to prevent this from happening. maybe you would have to take the first call at once or put it to hold asap, to handle the others Jul 12 10:55:21 Not without the cooperation of the network. Jul 12 10:56:08 Or asterisk running on your own phone system somewhere Jul 12 10:57:42 Oh - right, you've gone over this, just backscrolled Jul 12 10:57:50 * SpeedEvil has just woken up. Jul 12 10:58:21 oh, me too Jul 12 10:58:53 What would be really nice is having the option for it to put both calls through to you using half-rate codecs. Jul 12 10:59:05 But most phones would get slightly confused :) Jul 12 10:59:45 8000, the one true bitrate! Jul 12 10:59:59 uh, clock Jul 12 11:00:06 not had any coffee today ;) Jul 12 11:00:15 lol Jul 12 11:02:13 * Robot101 hears the distant gurgle of his moka Jul 12 11:02:17 mm... coffee ready :) Jul 12 11:02:42 its silent today Jul 12 11:02:47 woglinde: hi Jul 12 11:02:54 hi zecke Jul 12 11:05:06 Robot101, "moka" = screwup, in Finnish :] Jul 12 11:05:20 lol Jul 12 11:05:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_Express Jul 12 11:06:04 * CM has one of those too :D Jul 12 11:33:48 *blink* Jul 12 11:34:00 more netsplits, wee Jul 12 11:40:40 Hi people.. Has anyone tried today to build openmoko-devel-image today? It fails on compiling u-boot, because of the following error: "/home/moko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r11_239f05ee4dd4cfe0b50f251b533dcebe9e67c360_0_2375/git/include/environment.h:107: error: โ€˜CFG_ENV_SIZEโ€™ undeclared here (not in a function)".. Excuse me if this is not the right way of asking help here... but it's the first time I come on this cha Jul 12 11:40:40 Slaytani1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 12 11:41:14 Slaytani1: I built it about 1h ago without any problems Jul 12 11:42:03 Slaytani1: And yes, this is the right place unless you can already find the problem mentioned in http://bugzilla.openmoko.org Jul 12 11:42:14 ~pastebin Jul 12 11:42:16 somebody said pastebin was a place to paste your stuff without flooding the channel - try http://pastebin.ca, or http://channels.debian.net/paste, or http://rafb.net/paste/, or http://pastebin.com is usually painfully too slow and unresponsive to use, use one of the other pastebin sites, or dpaste.com is a very nice pastebin as well Jul 12 11:42:31 mmm... what a strange thing... it's the first time I'm trying to build it and so I have no idea of what I should do now.. Jul 12 11:42:53 How long will it take after I order neo base? Jul 12 11:43:09 Slaytani1: Have you tried to just restart the build? Sometimes it's an svn problem Jul 12 11:43:16 Richard: Until you get it? Jul 12 11:43:24 CM: yes Jul 12 11:43:25 Or do you mean the automated mail? Jul 12 11:43:42 CM: until I touch it :) Jul 12 11:43:49 Think it was mentioned somewhere that they'd start shipping them on the 16th Jul 12 11:44:09 And then it should take 2-5 days or so depending on what shipping you chose Jul 12 11:44:38 CM: I tried "make update setup openmoko-devel-imahe" and failed.. more than once.. then i tried "make clean-package-uboot-gta01" and "make build-package-uboot-gta01", same problem Jul 12 11:44:59 Good, I will get it after a week. Jul 12 11:45:08 Richard: That's best case. The manual packing can take a while.. Jul 12 11:46:02 Slaytani1: Ok, strange. Look around in the bugzilla, and if you can't find it there, post the full log in a bug Jul 12 11:46:13 * CM gets back to work Jul 12 11:46:19 CM: if it's more than 3 months, I will order mass product neo :) Jul 12 11:48:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:P1_Owners]] [[Java]] [[User:Micktaiwan]] [[OpenMoko:Community_Portal]] [[Manually_using_GPRS]] [[Main_Page/de]] Jul 12 11:56:18 huh Jul 12 11:56:24 cingular doesn't support csd by default Jul 12 11:56:27 ?? Jul 12 11:57:30 well, that fucking sucks Jul 12 11:58:42 what's good in csd? Jul 12 11:59:20 phone to phone data Jul 12 12:00:04 Hey, Is everyone here having problems receiving email from lists.openmoko.org? Jul 12 12:00:06 better than GPRS since there both the sender and receiver pay for each byte? Jul 12 12:00:35 nah, its just latency is much lower Jul 12 12:00:46 maybe ill go buy one of those prepaid cards to try it out with Jul 12 12:01:01 seriously though -_- annoying Jul 12 12:01:23 do you have interesting applications for it in mind? Jul 12 12:01:29 anrp: there are a number of operators in the EU that don't allow phone-phone comms (not even ip) Jul 12 12:01:39 vaguely Jul 12 12:01:41 hm, why not? Jul 12 12:01:53 because they're annaly retentive. Jul 12 12:01:56 *anally Jul 12 12:02:02 that's .. not much of a reason ~_~ Jul 12 12:02:13 anrp: it's alas enough of a reason for managers Jul 12 12:02:24 Stephmw: so put a server in the way :) Jul 12 12:02:25 why disallow it though? Jul 12 12:02:46 I'm guessing they don't want IM or VoIP Jul 12 12:03:11 ScaredyCat: it's a hassle, and has scalability problems Jul 12 12:03:14 anyone crazy enough to do im with csd is filthy rich Jul 12 12:04:14 symbian phones would be owned in a sec Jul 12 12:04:45 if you have a public ip the internet can own you anyway Jul 12 12:04:49 hey i've got an n80 here that has software disabled csd Jul 12 12:04:52 way to go nokia! Jul 12 12:05:18 i have a way old siemens c60 and samsung e715 that work with csd though Jul 12 12:05:36 anrp: no sense blaming the ODM... either the soft isn't ready, or the original client operator asked for it Jul 12 12:05:50 the phone supports it, some branded ones have it enabled Jul 12 12:05:56 so .. fucking cingular D: Jul 12 12:06:43 there's no end of 'customisations' that operators ask for that make us go WTF? Jul 12 12:08:40 So something that would be very interesting to see on a Wiki page would be the limits of our freedom with Neo. What would we still not be able to do even with with complete control of the 'phone itself? Jul 12 12:08:59 dos people program in oop manner but in c alway extend GObject types? I'm a c++ programmer, I really cannot unstand it. Jul 12 12:09:17 (I have no idea of the answers to this as I know next to nothing about how 'phones and networks interact but if others do I can see it being a lot of use to know how far we can go) Jul 12 12:09:30 whatever the network limits us to Jul 12 12:09:30 tuukkah: can you get public IP? Jul 12 12:09:34 really.. Jul 12 12:10:11 taneli, you can, and some applications need it. but then again, then the internet can ping you for a large gprs transfer bill Jul 12 12:10:20 taneli: I don't think you necessarily get a public IP per phone.. The service provider may just NAT you through their proxy anyway Jul 12 12:10:57 with my operator it depends on the APN you connect to with GPRS Jul 12 12:11:24 usually you pay for the privledge of a public ip but i guess some allow it for any plan Jul 12 12:11:38 this is finland :-) Jul 12 12:12:15 wow the order page has colours now. Jul 12 12:12:28 I'm in Denmark, and if I recall correctly, I even had problems connecting to other ports than port 80 once... That may be because I had a broken phone API though Jul 12 12:13:26 what, there are non-broken apis? Jul 12 12:13:36 :) Jul 12 12:13:58 Hi =) Jul 12 12:14:08 anrp: okay so I'm thinking there are two sets of limits. The first are the limits based on the technology (e.g. earlier we were discussing that you can't run two separate calls to the 'phone at the same time) and the other are limits based on what the operators may or may not allow us to do Jul 12 12:14:26 The former would be an easier list as there is only one of them whereas the latter will be operator-specific Jul 12 12:14:30 But still very interesteing to know Jul 12 12:14:44 documenting the latter would be a really good thing Jul 12 12:15:14 at least we'll be able to connect the wifi more than 150 times a month... that's a terrible development Jul 12 12:15:31 jgm, third group is limitations by current neo hardware and fourth is limitations by current openmoko software Jul 12 12:16:14 The latter will not be the biggest of problems Jul 12 12:16:20 tuukkah: true, although the fourth one is more of a generic TODO list for the software and so covered elsewhere Jul 12 12:17:24 i agree that some of the software todo's can be solved with enough hackers. but some might just be too much work and never realized Jul 12 12:17:45 Just as an example, I was thinking about making the Neo its own voicemail server so that it could store all voicemails locally, but to do that it would help a lot if it could open up a separate voice channel whenever someone was leaving a message (or was retrieving a message from the network's vmail system) and it sounds like we couldn't do that Jul 12 12:18:32 So one section that would be handy would be 'communications limitations' that spells out exactly what can run simultaneously over a single link Jul 12 12:18:34 jgm, what you can do is download the vmail from the network when the phone is idle :-) Jul 12 12:19:34 tuukkah: agree, but like I say it's just an example Jul 12 12:19:57 Sorry to bust in like this, but anyone got their phone or gotten to know hen it'll arrive? Jul 12 12:20:18 jgm, care to start http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Limitations Jul 12 12:20:18 (the same restriction may matter for call prioritisation, or may not, depending on what information we do get when a second person attempts to call you while you are on the 'phone) Jul 12 12:20:48 It's really an idiot's guide to the operation of GSM in relation to software development, perhaps the equivalent of a GSM API and state machine Jul 12 12:20:56 Yeah could do except I'm extremely unqualified :) Jul 12 12:21:38 that's never stopped GWB from running a country... Jul 12 12:21:47 get started, someone will cleanup your mistakes :) Jul 12 12:21:50 Not someone I would want to model myself after Jul 12 12:22:10 *laughing Jul 12 12:22:50 Given that I'm more of an application dev and the lowest I've ever gone is some minor kernel patching it's way from my area, that said I'll nose around Wikipedia and see if there is any useful information there that I can crib Jul 12 12:23:06 best way to get started Jul 12 12:23:29 I never got round to even thinking of submitting kernel patches... I'm must happier in app land Jul 12 12:23:55 It wasn't so much something I Wanted to do as something that I needed fixed, it was in the early days of 2.5 Jul 12 12:24:26 Got some spam from Perfectone--they're advertising a GSM desk phone. One of the "features" is that the network operator can change parameters from remote. Jul 12 12:24:53 What parameters could the network operator change? Jul 12 12:27:02 DukeOfUrl: all your firmwares are belong to us Jul 12 12:27:14 depending on brand... conceivably anything Jul 12 12:27:36 mjr, you complain about GRPS Class B so do you know about "dual transfer mode" pseudo-Class A? Jul 12 12:28:04 I can't even see why you'd want a GSM desk phone in the first place? I mean, it's not like it's meant to be portable anyway Jul 12 12:28:27 something wrong with the mailing lists? Jul 12 12:28:36 Apparantly yes Jul 12 12:29:05 tuukkah, actually I wasn't as much complaining than pointing it out to the guy who wanted two voice channels Jul 12 12:29:26 HWiz: the telco might want it Jul 12 12:29:32 means they dont have to lay copper to you Jul 12 12:29:49 mjr, i thought you complained earlier. not that i'm complaining about that, just mentioning Jul 12 12:29:54 though I suppose it might've looked much like ocmplaining :] Jul 12 12:29:58 Ah, from that point of view, it's a good reason then :) Jul 12 12:30:57 well, I have commented on it before, but I wouldn't classify my comments as complaints, but ymmv Jul 12 12:31:55 mjr :-) anyway, do you know about dtm? it sounds like it could be implemented in software as long as the network supports it Jul 12 12:31:58 anyway, no I don't know pseudo-class A Jul 12 12:32:09 wikipedia mentions it Jul 12 12:32:46 class a requires two gsm radios, pseudo-class a doesn't Jul 12 12:32:56 *nod* Jul 12 12:35:08 well, the neo's gsm chip is class b. Might be physically dtm-capable, but will be up to the manufacturer to provide firmware if it is so :I Jul 12 12:35:57 i was hoping we just send some AT command at that's it =) Jul 12 12:36:26 eh it is class b? Jul 12 12:36:32 that's interesting Jul 12 12:36:38 anrp, most devices are Jul 12 12:36:58 er, whoops Jul 12 12:37:04 mentally reversed what was read Jul 12 12:37:18 getting up at 3am = bad idea Jul 12 12:38:10 The gsm chip, does it do everything up to audio decoding? Jul 12 12:38:12 Does anybody here know how much HDD space I need for the devel environment? Jul 12 12:38:18 kinlo, yes Jul 12 12:38:19 i've heard up to 10gb Jul 12 12:38:31 sagaci1: ~7-10gb Jul 12 12:38:48 mine peaked at 7.9GB Jul 12 12:39:04 I had 40GB once Jul 12 12:39:05 Thanks. I guess it won't work on my 9GB laptop then Jul 12 12:39:13 so having a openmoko won't allow me to do special things compared to a regular mobile in terms of what you can do with the gsm network, as the entire logic is seperated in a different chip... Jul 12 12:39:20 and was able to fit in 3GB too Jul 12 12:39:22 Time to upgrade my WinXP pc to Linux Jul 12 12:39:34 kinlo, correct Jul 12 12:39:52 I'm a bit dissapointed :p Jul 12 12:40:06 that's your prerogative Jul 12 12:40:13 :) Jul 12 12:40:43 kinlo: Just to give a bit more info, this is a regulatory requirement I believe Jul 12 12:40:46 that would require an open gsm network kinlo.. Jul 12 12:40:57 * * OM Bug 635 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org Jul 12 12:40:58 * * uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r11_4ef218f6fdf8d747f4589da5252b004e7d2c2876_0_2348-do_quilt Jul 12 12:40:59 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=635 Jul 12 12:41:17 no seriously, I was wondering if you could for example read out things such as the technical details about your connection... Jul 12 12:41:30 cell id etc? Jul 12 12:41:42 kinlo: only if it is available from the API to the GSM module Jul 12 12:41:47 stuff like that yes Jul 12 12:41:50 I'd have thought Jul 12 12:41:55 kinlo: netmonitor stuff? Jul 12 12:42:02 stuff like that Jul 12 12:42:11 Hi, got a question for one of the FIC folks. Anyone available? Jul 12 12:42:11 emre: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 12 12:42:20 and playing with the values, but I guess that would indeed go against regulations... Jul 12 12:42:25 kinlo: you need gsm modem datasheet for it. and this is available only under NDA Jul 12 12:42:27 if it's available via AT commands, it's available, otherwise no Jul 12 12:42:33 is there a techdoc about the chip? Jul 12 12:42:41 kinlo: only under NDA Jul 12 12:42:42 take a look at the gsmd library... Jul 12 12:42:48 that sucks... Jul 12 12:42:52 ScaredyCat: gsmd is simple Jul 12 12:43:01 kinlo: thats how GSM vendors works Jul 12 12:43:31 kinlo, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GSM Jul 12 12:43:34 kinlo: you gave access to internals or you are allowed to connect to gsm Jul 12 12:44:22 or you spend far too long with an SDR trying to reverse it D: Jul 12 12:44:33 kinlo, annoying but not much good to cry about currently Jul 12 12:44:43 aloril: Are you talking about my last mail? Jul 12 12:44:56 aloril knows not of what he speaks Jul 12 12:45:00 i.e. script Jul 12 12:45:05 bye Jul 12 12:45:16 emre: its just autotrigger when new nick asks question during first 15 minutes Jul 12 12:45:37 hehe. Jul 12 12:46:28 well it looks like you can get that, etc... looking at page 107 Jul 12 12:47:17 what happened to the list? I get about a dozen messages at once... Jul 12 12:47:44 (script) http://openmoko.com changed: sizeof(diff -u)=967 Jul 12 12:47:56 * * OM Bug 636 has been created by gianni.costanzi(AT)gmail.com Jul 12 12:47:57 * * MokoMakefile fails to build uboot-gta01 package Jul 12 12:47:58 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=636 Jul 12 12:48:15 20 new messages now... Jul 12 12:48:23 as if they were queued Jul 12 12:49:08 Hey, so the list is working again? Jul 12 12:49:10 yeah, it was down for a while Jul 12 12:49:13 It's been down for two days Jul 12 12:49:17 it's expected that they burst out Jul 12 12:49:18 above change is minor: one letter made upper case Jul 12 12:50:41 who just got all the backlog from the mailing lists in their inbox Jul 12 12:51:30 I've received ~25 messages now, in the last 10 minutes Jul 12 12:51:40 same here Jul 12 12:52:01 the mailserver must be doing heavy duty rihgt now ;) Jul 12 12:52:50 Sigh.. And I just disabled all my filters because I thought that was the fault :( Jul 12 12:53:55 aww Jul 12 12:54:03 servers have been under alot of stress Jul 12 12:54:04 Slaytani1: Looks like you added a bug. :9 Jul 12 12:56:37 Slaytani1: The developers usually prefer that you add the log as an attatchment to the bug though, so they get it in the mail automaticly. Looks like some dependancy issue Jul 12 12:57:05 could it be the same as the previous bug from autobuilder? Jul 12 12:58:32 tuukkah: Hmm.. looks like it could be Jul 12 13:02:29 in the emulator i can see there already is a gui for writing sms Jul 12 13:03:06 I think it's libgsmd that's missing some implementation of it Jul 12 13:03:22 yeah Jul 12 13:04:01 i would like to see a status / todo which would tell this kind of things Jul 12 13:06:08 CM: should I add an attachment to the bug now? Jul 12 13:07:15 Slaytani1: No need to I think, the pastebin is permanent. Besides, the bug just before (#635) could be the same problems as tuukkah noticed Jul 12 13:07:46 Sorry, I noticed it just after having committed the BUG :-/ Jul 12 13:07:50 Slaytani1: Just mentioning it for next time, since I got told to do that last time I linked in a bug Jul 12 13:08:13 Better twice than not at all, and your pastebin is more detailed Jul 12 13:08:44 * CM gets more coffee Jul 12 13:08:58 CM: ok, thanks :) Jul 12 13:10:10 Stephmw: have you looks at icecream ?# Jul 12 13:11:32 ScaredyCat: sounds familiar... similar effort to icedtea? Jul 12 13:12:25 no, compile cluster Jul 12 13:12:48 ah, then no Jul 12 13:13:53 Is anyone offering shells on a Neo? For benchmarking. Jul 12 13:16:34 SpeedEvil - I can offer to run anything you want me to run. And if you keep asking me, I can create a forward for its ssh. :) Jul 12 13:16:52 Elrond: naah. I'm not at that stage yet. Jul 12 13:17:01 Idly wondering. Jul 12 13:17:55 SpeedEvil - Ahh. :-) Jul 12 13:18:11 Does anyone know if it is possible to use GTK+ sock icons in applications running on/in openmoko? Jul 12 13:18:29 sock ... hheehe Jul 12 13:18:43 slytherin - sock icons are great. ;-)) Jul 12 13:18:54 slytherin - But anyway: Yes, they should work IMHO. Jul 12 13:19:41 slytherin - If you give me some python-gtk code, I can test easily at home. Jul 12 13:19:43 ScaredyCat: Elrond: Sorry, I meant stock icons. Jul 12 13:19:51 I can't get any graphic in Xnest at all ... so erm i dunno Jul 12 13:20:26 Just the colors for "ssh -X" forwarded icons look very strange. Jul 12 13:20:34 Elrond: Can't do it right now. I am homeless currently and my PC is packed in box. Don't have access to any *nix installation from office. Jul 12 13:21:07 shouldn't you look for somewhere to live ? Jul 12 13:21:11 slytherin - Well, no problem. My neo is on the desk at home, off, unconnected to usb. ;) Jul 12 13:21:11 Elrond: Do you own a phone currently? Jul 12 13:21:41 slytherin - My previous statement should answer that. ;-) Jul 12 13:21:55 ScaredyCat: I am expecting possession of new home in 15-20 days. I am living with my friend currently. :-D Jul 12 13:22:17 ahh, ok... so long ats you're not in a cardboard box somehwere.. Jul 12 13:22:27 although, that'd mean you had wifi :) Jul 12 13:23:29 * ScaredyCat wonders what happened to the weather.... Jul 12 13:23:42 I'm pretty sure I ordered some sunshine Jul 12 13:23:58 .. maybe it'll ship on the 16th Jul 12 13:24:10 could be stuck in customs... Jul 12 13:24:19 think positive Jul 12 13:24:20 !! Jul 12 13:24:28 probably, :( Jul 12 13:24:35 ScaredyCat: Wasn't Neo supposed to end the war? I guess it will happen on 16th and then clouds will go away. :-) Jul 12 13:25:01 and cure world hunger Jul 12 13:25:02 and ... Jul 12 13:25:05 I have no recollection of that at this time Jul 12 13:25:17 has anyone tried to build their own packages for openmoko? Jul 12 13:25:30 ScaredyCat: Neo is in Matrix trilogy. :-) Jul 12 13:25:31 Neo was supposed to destroy the matrix. Jul 12 13:25:40 * ScaredyCat is just tryiing now freskog_work Jul 12 13:26:02 I looked through a lot of the sources/packages yesterday, seems as if openmoko-libs is somewhat incomplete at the moment. Jul 12 13:26:03 the Ma..what ..ix ? Jul 12 13:26:16 mmazur: Wrong. He was supposed to end the war. :-) Jul 12 13:26:53 ScaredyCat: I found some interesting tidbits in openmokoui, but that was pretty much it. Jul 12 13:26:53 And bang trinity. Jul 12 13:26:58 I thought the computers and squigy things were meant to live in harmony Jul 12 13:27:29 that was ebony and ivory... Jul 12 13:28:11 freskog_work: I guess there's lots to do :) Jul 12 13:28:32 so who was having build issues? Jul 12 13:28:38 just built fine here Jul 12 13:29:02 scaredycat: seems as if they intend to create the api as they go, i.e., when an application needs a feature they'll implement it. Jul 12 13:29:36 hi everybody! Jul 12 13:29:59 Which is both good and bad ... good because maybe the api will be sane (implement stuff that people actually use) bad because it makes it difficult for us early adopters :) Jul 12 13:30:31 yeah, freskog_work .. the problem is if you implement a function yourself, getting it into the tree would be nice Jul 12 13:30:51 exactly. Jul 12 13:31:01 freskog_work: Are you looking for any particular thing? Jul 12 13:31:12 Also having a nice API+documentation would have been sweet, from my point of view... Jul 12 13:32:29 well, not you get to write bits of the api ;) Jul 12 13:32:35 s/not/now/ Jul 12 13:32:36 ScaredyCat meant: well, now you get to write bits of the api ;) Jul 12 13:32:41 but to be honest, it's better that they have the underlying stuff working before the commit to the API. Jul 12 13:33:22 I believe that they where going to have most applications implemented by their lab in Shanghai (?) Jul 12 13:33:42 and whenever two applications required an api addition, they'd implement it. Jul 12 13:34:55 BTW: are they mailinglists working today (as you probably guessed I'm at work and can't check my mail from here). Jul 12 13:35:42 Seem to work Jul 12 13:36:03 I just posted a comment after a batch came through. Jul 12 13:36:10 (I'm not subscribed in digests) Jul 12 13:36:18 and it went through immediately. Jul 12 13:36:29 that's good. Jul 12 13:37:00 Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much activity on the framework-devel list (at least not lately). Jul 12 13:37:24 do the core devs have their own private mail list/irc channel? Jul 12 13:37:42 There is an #openmoko-devel not sure who is in it though Jul 12 13:37:58 aha, maybe I should start lurking in there. Jul 12 13:38:00 https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Development_resources#Internal_resources Jul 12 13:38:16 It's private Jul 12 13:38:25 damn. Jul 12 13:38:50 I'd be content if it was open for browsing, but eveyone except devs have been muted. Jul 12 13:38:58 Agree Jul 12 13:39:18 "The reason they are internal is either because they deal with information under NDA, or about business strategy." Jul 12 13:39:22 s/have/had/ Jul 12 13:39:23 freskog_work meant: I'd be content if it was open for browsing, but eveyone except devs had been muted. Jul 12 13:39:55 Ok, well I suppose that makes sense. Jul 12 13:40:55 Suppose that means that when the non-core development starts taking off we'll just form an #openmoko-hackers Jul 12 13:40:55 Wow, you know you're addicted when reading the commit logs isn't enough :) Jul 12 13:41:07 haha :) Jul 12 13:41:27 jgm, #openmoko-dev Jul 12 13:41:54 any news on the mailserver issues? Jul 12 13:41:57 well actually that's not a bad idea, but there's always the issue of administering it ... who gets to speak and so on ... Jul 12 13:42:17 but having a channel dedicated to actually discussing development would be nice. Jul 12 13:42:30 freskog_work, never had a lot of such issues on public channels Jul 12 13:42:52 (I'm not complaining, just pointing out that people have different interests) Jul 12 13:43:02 I still haven't received my order confirmation nor any reply on my request for black/silver ... Jul 12 13:43:13 :( Jul 12 13:43:17 Ok, I'm pretty new at IRC:ing (maybe it shows :) Jul 12 13:46:27 Well as we get more (some) users of OpenMoko there will be more people asking non-dev questions, at the moment it doesn't really matter because everyone here seems to want to help out on 'development' of OpenMoko in some shape or form Jul 12 13:47:23 I've not really been on this channel for very long, so I guess I just came in at a bad time the last time. Jul 12 13:47:44 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU/it]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Main_Page/ro]] [[Main_Page/it]] [[Category:Neo1973_alternate_cases]] [[Gsmd]] [[How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC/it]] [[Running_OpenMoko_on_PC/it]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] and other changes Jul 12 13:48:00 Then again, there's not that much to discuss about development for the moment either (atleast if you're an application developer) Jul 12 13:48:43 freskog_work, remember that you don't need a phone for openmoko Jul 12 13:49:15 freskog_work: there's always usability discussions, phone usecases, etc Jul 12 13:49:57 That's true. Jul 12 13:50:18 But actually having the phone would probably not hurt :) Jul 12 13:50:46 How many people here, that plan on doing application development, have already ordered the P1 ? Jul 12 13:51:19 I actually held of for P2 Jul 12 13:51:56 * Stephmw is holding off until January Jul 12 13:52:31 My guess is that until the openmoko-libs are in a more complete state, there's not that much I can contribute (which is a shame). I'm afraid I just don't have the skills for the underlying stuff. Jul 12 13:53:29 If time permits, but who knows on that one? Jul 12 13:53:34 freskog_work: I think quite a few here has ordered the phones, even if they're in early alpha state software wise Jul 12 13:53:58 CM: to be honest, the only reason I've not, is I'd want the inbuilt wifi Jul 12 13:54:06 I think I would have aswell if I could afford to buy both. Jul 12 13:54:27 wibbit: I'd really like that too, but I'll save for a P2 phone too :D Jul 12 13:54:39 I've seen people say that a lot. For me the most interesting feature is the 3D-support. Jul 12 13:55:11 mornin Jul 12 13:55:22 And the increased performance will hopefully make sure that the interface is snappy. Jul 12 13:56:07 I have this nagging sensation that the performancce is at best tolerable right now (ofcourse this would have improved over time anyway, with optimizations and what not) Jul 12 13:56:34 Snappy shouldn't be a problem. Hopefully. Jul 12 13:56:46 My 486/75 with 640*480 was plenty snappy. Jul 12 13:57:01 I'm all for snappy :) Jul 12 13:57:24 your desktop probably had a display that was measured with more than one digit of unit... Jul 12 13:57:35 laptop actually Jul 12 13:57:38 unit? Jul 12 13:57:47 inches or cm, your choice D: Jul 12 13:57:53 Actually not. Jul 12 13:57:58 It was 9.5" Jul 12 13:58:03 ooh, close! Jul 12 13:58:06 Or was it 9. Jul 12 13:58:38 I have used desktops that slow, but it's been a while logner than the last time I used the lappy. Jul 12 13:58:43 Another interesting question is whether GTK is the most appropriate GUI... What about the Enlightment libraries? Jul 12 13:59:00 anyone here developing for openmoko using Ubuntu 7.04? Jul 12 13:59:02 Rasterman had a quite convicing demo at linux conf australia. Jul 12 13:59:04 If GTK is uncurably slow, it's likely to expect it to go away. Jul 12 13:59:24 enlightenment... eye candy for all Jul 12 13:59:33 Indeed. Jul 12 13:59:41 * anrp attempts some international roaming Jul 12 13:59:44 freskog_work: mickeyl is an enligtment guy Jul 12 13:59:45 Just wanted to say that I LOVE what FIC are doing with the NEO phone Jul 12 13:59:50 freskog_work: And the main developer.. Jul 12 14:00:02 jonwil: :) Jul 12 14:00:06 freskog_work: He met with raster in .tw not long ago Jul 12 14:00:07 so it's not completely impossible in other words :) Jul 12 14:00:11 I have some minor criticisms, but... Jul 12 14:00:24 freskog_work: He's already started with it ;) Jul 12 14:00:27 With the right applications on it, the new hardware revision with WiFi could easily be the cell carriers worst nightmare IMO Jul 12 14:00:44 freskog_work: It's actively being pursued. Rasterman has been spoted in this channel too. Jul 12 14:00:48 To be honest I haven't really looked at the API, so I should probably be quiet :) Jul 12 14:00:55 (of enlightenment) Jul 12 14:01:09 freskog: Come up with some nice javascript based interfaces on a fast enough FF with all the apps as extensions, and it could work even. Jul 12 14:01:13 That is _awesome_ news! Jul 12 14:01:43 Anything can be done. And if it gets popular enough, it may even be chosen as the primary interface. Jul 12 14:01:53 SpeedEvil: I try to stay away from javascript... Jul 12 14:02:11 That was more in the way of an example, than a design suggestion :) Jul 12 14:02:19 :) Jul 12 14:02:29 freskog_wirk: see http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/07/05/efl-related-work/ Jul 12 14:03:00 Kensan: thanks! Jul 12 14:03:33 I need to go (quitting time, yay!) see you guys later! Jul 12 14:04:16 Is there any kind of wiki page or info on what apps FIC and the OpenMoko team are looking at including on the GTA02 "end user" phone? Jul 12 14:04:34 anyone with any insight on laforge's latest blog post? Jul 12 14:05:13 jonwil, theres some information on the comparison page between the GTA02 and iPhone Jul 12 14:05:18 CM: can you tell me what should be the value of CFG_ENV_SIZE so that I can specify it by hand within the environment.h file (which is the cause of the problem I've told you above) and go on compiling the rest of the packages that make openmoko-devel-image? Jul 12 14:05:35 Slaytani1: I can see if I can find it Jul 12 14:05:36 jonwil, errr nevermind didn't read application information the first time around Jul 12 14:05:42 ok Jul 12 14:05:46 CM: how was the show? Jul 12 14:05:48 CM: thanks Jul 12 14:06:04 jonwil: Jul 12 14:06:07 faq? Jul 12 14:06:07 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Jul 12 14:06:35 untwisted: Great, and loud! :D Jul 12 14:07:07 CM: Nice :D Jul 12 14:07:46 counter/ Jul 12 14:07:48 counter/? Jul 12 14:07:51 counter? Jul 12 14:07:51 (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 6 days 21:52:03 (6.911ยฑ3.0 days) (1732;246) Jul 12 14:08:17 oh ok, the main phone apps are not yet usable so they havent decided what non-phone apps will be included on GTA02 yet Jul 12 14:08:20 <|R> http://www.mokoapps.org/ <- there is this that could become an app portal.. Jul 12 14:08:29 <|R> nothing much there right now though :) Jul 12 14:08:36 alech: no doubt part of story is that he has been overworked, close to burning out at February Jul 12 14:08:58 * SpeedEvil passes laForge a ticket to Burning Man. Jul 12 14:09:03 alech: also see his previous blog entries Jul 12 14:09:49 so I've decided to whore myself out for a developer moko. Who wants a codemonkey! Jul 12 14:10:48 aloril: ok, that sounds reasonable ... Jul 12 14:11:22 aloril: I was just wondering if it was something worse, like production or shipping problems or something alike Jul 12 14:11:25 I think the real answer for "what apps will be included" depends on what apps people actually want to write Jul 12 14:11:44 alech: no free time at all maybe for 10 months .. also doing most of time other stuff than what he was hired to do Jul 12 14:11:56 Personally I think the #1 and #2 Jul 12 14:11:59 all I know is that when the GTA02 comes out I'm turning mine in to a wiimote! P Jul 12 14:12:03 whats up with the mailinglist? it's really quiet at moment Jul 12 14:12:12 Slaytani1: Hmm.. Not that easy :( Jul 12 14:12:26 thomasg: got now bunch of mails Jul 12 14:12:27 thomasg: mails end up in the archive, though. several people seem to have the same problem. Jul 12 14:12:38 Slaytani1: I greped in /home/moko/openmoko/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches and there's all kinds of values Jul 12 14:12:46 thomasg: I'd guess mailserver problems, not having received either mailing list posts nor my order confirmation either Jul 12 14:12:48 lol Jul 12 14:12:54 just asking, now I got a bunch of mails, too Jul 12 14:13:02 "killer apps" for the GTA02 would be a usable VoIP app (one that lets you call normal phones as well as other VoIP users) and an IM app that does all the main IM/chat protocols Jul 12 14:13:03 to be correct: 32 threads ^^ Jul 12 14:13:31 a port of pidgin called, finch :P would be cool as the chat app ;) Jul 12 14:13:33 Yeah - we pretty much know that jonwil. Jul 12 14:13:35 CM: I saw :'( Jul 12 14:13:49 jonwil: First SMS and the contacts app need finished :) Jul 12 14:13:54 yes, they do Jul 12 14:14:07 MMS also if the hardware can do it :) Jul 12 14:14:32 for the IM, a port of the Pidgin client would probobly work :P Jul 12 14:14:40 untwisted: It can be a wiimote without the equivalent of a sensor bar. Jul 12 14:14:49 If I had the money, I would buy a NEO and write some code myself Jul 12 14:15:07 You can code on emulators. Jul 12 14:15:09 SpeedEvil: Oh man, yah, the gps :P Jul 12 14:15:14 Or even on native apps. Jul 12 14:15:27 Native X11 that is. Jul 12 14:15:27 jonwil: a port of an existing app isn't what I had in mind, more thinking of something that could also handle SMS, voicemail and whatever else came along (email)? Jul 12 14:15:28 well the money and the linux programming skills :) Jul 12 14:15:35 Some sort of centralised messaging center/interface Jul 12 14:15:47 that would work great. Jul 12 14:15:49 Because at the moment telephone interfaces suck for messaging, they're all over the place (literally) Jul 12 14:15:51 * SpeedEvil contemplates a centralised massaging interface. Jul 12 14:16:49 So hard do we think porting Pidgin would be? Anyone actually looked at the source before? Jul 12 14:16:52 CM: running openmoko with qemu and executing printenv I can see "mtdparts=mtdparts=neo1973-nand:0x00050000(u-boot),0x00004000(u-boot_env),0x00208000(kernel),0x00010000(splash),0x039a4000(rootfs)", so maybe I should set CFG_ENV_SIZE to 0x4000, what do you think? Jul 12 14:17:04 Even if not pidgin for the interface, the pidgin messaging subsystem and libraries could probobly be reused to do the IM stuff Jul 12 14:17:10 Because if we're looking for a killer app for 'phones it is making the damned things much more intuitive to use Jul 12 14:17:20 Slaytani1: Yes, it looks like that's an ok value. Worth trying ;) Jul 12 14:17:22 jonwil: I agree Jul 12 14:17:22 jonwil: I think that telepathy/empathy would be the beasts to look at Jul 12 14:17:35 Slaytani1: Can't say I know where to set it correctly though... Jul 12 14:17:53 aah yeah jgm, that does look like it could work Jul 12 14:18:04 Just port Evolution over Jul 12 14:18:24 dtx: It's running eds-dbus already Jul 12 14:18:40 the important thing is that OpenMoko and the FIC phone can be phones built to have what the USERS want/need and not the what the carriers insist on Jul 12 14:18:51 CM: I'll try setting it before the line that gives the error :), include/environment.h:107 Jul 12 14:19:13 does empathy have support for everything pidgin does? Jul 12 14:20:25 Think it's missing a few plugins Jul 12 14:20:30 But they're relatively easy to write Jul 12 14:20:56 Are there any plans for OpenMoko email client to support talking to Exchange? Or is it a case of "if you want that, write the code"... Jul 12 14:20:59 The trick will be first to write the useful-for-phone plugins (sms, voicemail, perhaps even phone calls) Jul 12 14:21:24 jonwil: probably over IMAP but can't see them putting anything else in place (although as you say...) Jul 12 14:23:08 yeah, talking to exchange over anything but imap is a headache Jul 12 14:23:40 I thought about writing an exchange to ical convertor at one point Jul 12 14:23:48 CM: now uboot is compilinig (it did not fail on the previous error, obviously..).. The strange thing is that other people have built it today (it seems) without having this problem with CFG_ENV_SIZE.. BTW, let's see if everything will work at the end of the compilation :) Thank you for the support! (the GTA02 release seems so far :'(, I can't wait for it! :) ) Jul 12 14:24:19 it looks like the pidgin libraries will work out well, we can just jack libpurple and write a new UI for it Jul 12 14:24:21 Slaytani1: I just synced and it's building right now Jul 12 14:24:47 do you want it to talk to exchange or do you want to sync messages? Jul 12 14:25:44 I dug into the evolution exchange support code Jul 12 14:25:49 CM: I don't understand how it can be only my problem, since it's something fully automated (I did not change anything..).. btw, uboot finished compiling now and MokoMakefile is going on building the remaining stuff :) Jul 12 14:25:52 I was thinking of whatever it is that Windows Mobile phones have that let them talk to corporate email clients Jul 12 14:25:56 I mean email servers Jul 12 14:25:57 its not bad, but its all webdav based Jul 12 14:26:02 undocumented Jul 12 14:26:04 and it changes Jul 12 14:26:10 using somehtng like funambol, and a some of their gpl code, the mail clinet ould support push email too Jul 12 14:26:30 jonwil: Are you looking for just push mail or full featured stuff like synching your outlook calendar? Jul 12 14:26:47 jonwil: http://www.funambol.com/partners/ Jul 12 14:27:06 CM: actually, I changed one thin, I've added -cc=/usr/bin/gcc-3.4.6 to the ./configure invokation for the qemu MokoMakefile target (otherwise it tries to use gcc32 and fails), but this has nothing to do with uboot building.. Jul 12 14:27:42 Slaytani1: My build just finished, flashed qemu build that is Jul 12 14:28:31 CM: ok, thanks.. Jul 12 14:28:43 I wasnt thinking for myself personally, just thinking that having such functionality would mean that all the people who are told by work "you can have any cellhpone you like as long as it talks to corporate email" would be able to pick OpenMoko/NEO Jul 12 14:28:50 openmoko: 03shoragan * r2380 10/trunk/oe/ (classes/base.bbclass conf/site.conf): Use archive.apache.org only as a fallback. Jul 12 14:29:19 but yeah, I can see why talking to the most usefull and important bits of exchange is a nightmare Jul 12 14:29:36 CM: they've told me to move the bug.. http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=636 Jul 12 14:30:20 Slaytani1: Ok. I know Harald doesn't like the makefile much Jul 12 14:30:29 Just leave it resolved Jul 12 14:30:43 CM: ok Jul 12 14:31:10 * CM is happy to see Harald replying to a bug, but hopes he's daking it easy with work Jul 12 14:31:52 s/daking/taking/ Jul 12 14:32:35 I aggree with the idea of making the phones easier to use Jul 12 14:33:23 * galexande ships harald an ounce of pot Jul 12 14:34:00 One area all phones I have seen to date fail in terms of ease of use is loading ringtones onto the phone. Jul 12 14:34:04 galexande: Not while he's coding on u-boot! :P Jul 12 14:34:04 only an ounce... Jul 12 14:34:43 jonwil: hardly surprising, operators and content owners _don't_ want you to use your own ringtones Jul 12 14:34:50 yeah Jul 12 14:34:57 free your ringtone! Jul 12 14:35:10 i'm looking forward to like /etc/phone.d/ringer Jul 12 14:35:16 lol Jul 12 14:35:17 and if you want to put cat /dev/urandom > /dev/audio there, that's your own problem Jul 12 14:35:35 (I used to wake up every morning to vmlinuz) Jul 12 14:36:23 libc sounds a lot like a modem Jul 12 14:36:45 galexande: I'm waking up to Jr Ewing (Norwegian band). Not that far from vmlinuz some times.. ;) Jul 12 14:37:21 wget Jul 12 14:37:29 errm... Jul 12 14:37:45 wget: missing URL Jul 12 14:37:45 Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... Jul 12 14:37:50 try again? ;/ Jul 12 14:38:28 Does the FIC phone have the hardware power to do video playback? Jul 12 14:38:36 possibly Jul 12 14:38:40 anrp: Thou shalt not execute commands from IRC Jul 12 14:38:43 Barely in P1 Jul 12 14:38:50 Could lead to data loss Jul 12 14:38:58 * anrp filters it D: Jul 12 14:39:03 :-) Jul 12 14:39:10 i refuse to run perl though, all sorts of nasties in there Jul 12 14:39:53 I do like the idea of being able to set whatever app you want as the ringtone app. Jul 12 14:40:08 Done right you could have fancy stuff like video ringtones Jul 12 14:40:16 and different tones for different people :) Jul 12 14:40:19 anyone interested in helping with the port of pidgin? I'm registering a new project on openmoko.org, but would like to know if others would want to help. Not sure I'll have the time to do this myself in any reasonable timeframe. Jul 12 14:40:55 untwisted: i'm not sure whether a port really is that helpful Jul 12 14:41:01 on the small screen, some things may need changing Jul 12 14:41:04 jonwil: Every program should be able to get incoming call events via dbus Jul 12 14:41:10 for starters, openmoko doesnt really have windows Jul 12 14:41:14 just fullscreen Jul 12 14:41:16 bah, details Jul 12 14:41:27 unless by port you mean totally new ui ;= Jul 12 14:41:31 buz: Well it wouldn't be a fullon port, mostly a rewrite of the gui while using their libpurple backend. Jul 12 14:41:43 untwisted: might be a better idea to try to port gossip (although again a very different UI would be a good thing here) Jul 12 14:42:00 does telepathy have any code these days? Jul 12 14:42:05 That's what I'll be spending some of my (non-existent) development time on Jul 12 14:42:24 telepathy seems very promising Jul 12 14:42:27 Is there a web browser that can run on such a low power hardware yet? Jul 12 14:42:29 buz: seems to, there is a version of gossip that uses telepathy exclusively and seems to work okay (I'm using it now, for example) Jul 12 14:42:49 i think telepathy would likely be the best way to get IM Jul 12 14:43:08 im a fan of libpurple Jul 12 14:43:12 Is the API better? What are the advantages? More lightweight? Jul 12 14:43:24 Telepathy has the right split Jul 12 14:43:34 MrFeetio, have you used libpurple before? Jul 12 14:44:01 It modularises everything and uses DBus to move stuff around, just seems to make a lot more sense than having a monolithic piece of code to do everything Jul 12 14:44:17 Maybe I should pull out some of these linux/unix books from my shelf and do something usefull (for example, maybe a ffmpeg port to OpenMoko with a new OpenMoko app to provide a UI) Jul 12 14:44:25 And also allows us to integrate more cleanly (e.g. in to eds-dbus for contacts) Jul 12 14:44:40 out of all the chat programs i have used(for unix) libpurple seems the most robust Jul 12 14:44:41 jgm, those all sound like good reasons to me Jul 12 14:45:32 he smarter them me go with what he says Jul 12 14:45:43 Well, I guess its time to take a look at the telepathy libraries Jul 12 14:45:53 did someone notice that sun presented JavaFX on JavaOne on a Neo1973? (just because we discussed java on neo yesterday...) Jul 12 14:46:17 is there a video? Jul 12 14:47:01 yes, wait a second, a college will send it to me. it is also on the newspaper 'java one today'... Jul 12 14:47:14 http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/ has a bunch of info and there is also a presentation on there (slides plus a video) that gives a good overview of what's going on Jul 12 14:47:35 jgm: thanks for the info :) Jul 12 14:47:56 Also worth checking out empathy (on live.gnome.org) to see what they're doing, they are integrating telepathy and mission control to provide a new API (although it is still very early days) Jul 12 14:48:17 mdt: did they really present it Jul 12 14:48:21 or did they just show mock ups Jul 12 14:48:52 if they really presented it, they are rather idiotic about not releasing the jvm for openmoko Jul 12 14:48:53 i don't know. but it crashed as my college says Jul 12 14:48:58 so it may be real ;) Jul 12 14:50:00 i want to see liquid war ported for the neo Jul 12 14:50:00 and it is propabl SE not ME. FX is implented for SE only for now Jul 12 14:50:09 what's that? Jul 12 14:50:30 time has come to try openmoko framework Jul 12 14:50:44 Give me a good Tetris clone on OpenMoko and thats games enough for me :P Jul 12 14:50:53 openmoko uses D-Bus already jgm? Jul 12 14:50:56 Jonbo, same to me Jul 12 14:51:05 battle for wesnoth! Jul 12 14:51:37 untwisted: for bits, yep (e.g. they use EDS-DBus for their main data store) Jul 12 14:51:50 untwisted: even if i do not know very well the internals of openmoko I'm quite sure dbus is a central block for openmoko Jul 12 14:53:01 anyone here happen to use jedit ? Jul 12 14:53:13 what's up with this: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/11#20070711-insanity Jul 12 14:53:52 can the hardware of openmoko do MMS? Jul 12 14:54:00 ???? Jul 12 14:54:22 jonwill why is MMS a hardware problem? Jul 12 14:54:46 I mean the GSM/GPRS hardware Jul 12 14:54:49 and interfaces Jul 12 14:55:20 So why is Harald Welte all pissed off? Jul 12 14:55:53 MrFeetio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7337648@N08/417853278/ Jul 12 14:55:57 dtx: from a discussion yesterday, I understood it to be pretty much stress related, more than any thing else Jul 12 14:56:16 CM: Now that just rocks Jul 12 14:56:34 hi Jul 12 14:56:44 too little sleep can easily give such results, too Jul 12 14:56:48 CM: Even though I'd like a bigger screen, the fact that this one has such a high resolution is nice. Jul 12 14:57:07 buz: true, though, I must be honest, I don't think comments like that are entirely appropriate... Jul 12 14:57:14 wibbit: Yes, we should really put all those pixels to good use ;) Jul 12 14:57:22 not really, no Jul 12 14:57:23 So can talk of needing to contact an expensive lawyer about the legality of open GPS hardware in the US Jul 12 14:57:41 especially not on a syndicated blog Jul 12 14:57:50 it would be another thing if it was said in irc or so Jul 12 14:57:55 if I have the money when they are made available, I will seriously consider buying a wifi NEO phone Jul 12 14:58:01 we all know irc is to be taken with giant grains of salt Jul 12 14:58:04 buz: quite Jul 12 14:58:11 wibbit: hey this is opensource :) Jul 12 14:58:17 wibbit: opensource is nothing without flames Jul 12 14:58:35 bedboi: it's a difference between cursing at people and talking about killing Jul 12 14:58:38 buz: also comments are less likely to be as "public" as a blog, or accessible to general joe public (though that could be a duplicate of the original part of my statement, hehe) Jul 12 14:58:48 yeah Jul 12 14:58:54 buz: i think that it could be a metaphor Jul 12 14:58:57 in some jurisdictions that post could get you into real trouble even Jul 12 14:59:18 buz: maybe in china. Jul 12 14:59:25 of course it could be a metaphor, even likely so, still it's a bad post on a public blog of a high profile project Jul 12 14:59:34 CM: wow... it just failed on bluez-utils-3.9-r2.... :-/ Jul 12 14:59:48 in my country Silvio Berlusconi said that people that are left party are assholes Jul 12 14:59:51 :) Jul 12 14:59:57 Slaytani1: What distro are you on? Jul 12 15:00:02 now go and sue him :) Jul 12 15:00:04 CM: Gentoo Jul 12 15:00:14 Slaytani1: Same as me then :) Jul 12 15:00:46 buz: I agree that it is not so good for marketing purposes... Jul 12 15:00:55 Is your country the same as the one in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkDp-6t-keA Jul 12 15:01:06 well berlusconi does a lot of weird things Jul 12 15:01:32 buz: Consider that Laforge knows that all to well and he still decided to make that post. That should give a scale of how frustrated/annoyed he must be... Jul 12 15:01:34 CM: I have no ideas about the possible causes of such errors... same distro as you, you can compile it, I can not :-/ Jul 12 15:01:50 LMFAO Jul 12 15:01:55 Kensan: obviously, yes Jul 12 15:01:57 dtx: That is fucking hillarious Jul 12 15:02:00 dtx: that's a fake Jul 12 15:02:06 a fake? Jul 12 15:02:07 dtx: btw he did worse than that Jul 12 15:02:09 yep it is Jul 12 15:02:22 is it? Jul 12 15:02:27 btw, is FIC phone legal to use in australia? Jul 12 15:02:39 only by kangaroos Jul 12 15:02:51 lol Jul 12 15:02:52 I meanoh ok Jul 12 15:02:52 for jvm on neo see http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/when_not_where and http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/media_shell.jsp?id=193609 Jul 12 15:02:53 dtx: he is a Berlusconi clone Jul 12 15:02:54 I C Jul 12 15:03:00 yeah Jul 12 15:03:01 haha Jul 12 15:03:05 dtx: i doubt he is worse than him. Jul 12 15:03:08 I guess I should read the comments Jul 12 15:03:53 Can't be worse than this though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcVZsYkspA Jul 12 15:03:55 Kensan: did you order a neo, btw? Jul 12 15:03:55 just wondering what shipping to ch costs Jul 12 15:04:07 Slaytani1: It's some bug with recent kernels btw.. Not sure why I haven't gotten it. Jul 12 15:04:17 grrrr 5th downtime today Jul 12 15:04:27 not sure whether my last messages made it Jul 12 15:04:46 buz: I did put in an order for Neo Base with Express (not Saver - only those 2 choices). Shipping added ~80$. Jul 12 15:04:59 oh ok Jul 12 15:05:09 i hope they will ship gta02 from europe Jul 12 15:05:30 (i'll be in the us in late august but sadly gta02 wont be ready then) Jul 12 15:05:30 buz: I assume they will have their own distribution channels by then. Jul 12 15:05:47 buz: I think they will, sounded like that Jul 12 15:05:55 yeah the ypromised they would have them Jul 12 15:05:57 How many of the current model of Neo have been produced? Jul 12 15:06:02 CM: I'll try correcting the problem again by-hand.. Jul 12 15:06:13 UPS might be one of the more expensive carriers though Jul 12 15:06:24 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz FAQ in progress Jul 12 15:06:32 i've found TNT to be quite reasonable compared to FedEx and UPS Jul 12 15:06:56 (last package was 1/3 of price with tnt comapred to fedex) Jul 12 15:07:00 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ Jul 12 15:07:22 CM: I think it's better if I'll stop here for the moment... another issue "/home/moko/build/tmp/staging/i686-linux/lib/libusb.so: could not read symbols: File in wrong format" :-/ Jul 12 15:07:46 from http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006804.html Jul 12 15:08:03 Slaytani1: Are you trying to build native, or the qemu image? I'm on ~amd64 btw Jul 12 15:08:06 buz: Do you know of any other people from CH interested in this project? Jul 12 15:08:27 not sure Jul 12 15:08:41 i know a few linux users here and there but most say it's too big for their uses Jul 12 15:09:03 occasionally a .ch email hits the ml Jul 12 15:09:13 ~s/occasionally/rarely/ Jul 12 15:09:21 CM: I'm not sure to understand.. I'd like to build everything and run the resulting image on Qemu.. I've run make openmoko-devel-image on my x86 Gentoo Jul 12 15:09:49 Kensan: did you figure out how to get openexpo tickets? Jul 12 15:10:08 buz: did not look further into that... Jul 12 15:10:09 Slaytani1: Should work, I've built it several times. I have both gcc-4.1.2 and 3.4.6 installed Jul 12 15:10:43 CM: but is this correct? OE Build Configuration: Jul 12 15:10:43 BB_VERSION = "1.6.9" Jul 12 15:10:43 OE_REVISION = "" Jul 12 15:10:43 TARGET_ARCH = "arm" Jul 12 15:10:43 TARGET_OS = "linux" Jul 12 15:10:44 MACHINE = "fic-gta01" Jul 12 15:10:46 DISTRO = "openmoko" Jul 12 15:10:48 DISTRO_VERSION = ".dev-snapshot-20070712" Jul 12 15:10:50 TARGET_FPU = "soft" Jul 12 15:11:02 Slaytani1: Please use pastebin for these things Jul 12 15:11:08 CM: sorry for "polluting" the chat :-/ Jul 12 15:11:37 Kensan: i'd sure like to see mickey's presentation Jul 12 15:12:15 buz: yeah would be cool to meet other people hacking openmoko. Jul 12 15:12:41 Slaytani1: And yes, I'm building with the exact same config Jul 12 15:12:48 Kensan: if other events like iEX are any indication, tickets will be thru the roof Jul 12 15:13:11 CM: ok, thanks again... I'll give up for the moment :-/ Jul 12 15:13:21 buz: hm... there's nothing on the website as far as I can tell. Jul 12 15:13:26 oh, nnice "Hinweis: Kostenloser Eintritt zu Referaten, Projektausstellung und Specials" Jul 12 15:13:56 buz: ah great. I thought it was open. Jul 12 15:15:37 dooh, kde is missing Jul 12 15:18:12 CM: one last thing... as you can notice in the last 10 lines here http://www.pastebin.ca/616238 it fails linking libusb.so, because it says it is in the wrong format.. in fact, it is an "ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386" as "file" says.. isn't this wrong, since it should be compiled for the ARM architecture? Jul 12 15:19:22 counter Jul 12 15:19:23 (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 6 days 20:40:32 (6.861ยฑ3.0 days) (1733;246) Jul 12 15:19:49 hmm, it would be nice if someone would add GTA02 to the counter Jul 12 15:21:03 Slaytani1: have you compiled it for 86 before? Jul 12 15:21:10 s/86/x86/ Jul 12 15:21:11 ScaredyCat meant: Slaytani1: have you compiled it for x86 before? Jul 12 15:21:22 I plan on getting one Jul 12 15:21:29 whoops Jul 12 15:21:34 I was reading history Jul 12 15:21:52 ScaredyCat & apt: no, its' the first time I'm trying to compile it Jul 12 15:21:57 dtx well, you can't read the future. Jul 12 15:22:10 yeah, but I can attempt to be more modernist Jul 12 15:22:12 ;-) Jul 12 15:23:30 :) Jul 12 15:25:26 So can this run any GTK app? Jul 12 15:25:33 Does it just skin it and run it full screen? Jul 12 15:29:10 can the skins alter the size of buttons? Jul 12 15:29:20 i guess i just asked a software = no question Jul 12 15:29:50 kiney_: see web page for GTA02 Jul 12 15:29:57 dtx, it can run any X app Jul 12 15:30:18 (or you could "/msg aloril counter?") Jul 12 15:30:49 why does thhe counter suggest shipping on jul 18, but i've only seen 16? Jul 12 15:31:18 Is it using GPE? Jul 12 15:31:30 wow, the mailing lists came back with a vengeance Jul 12 15:31:37 dtx, roughly Jul 12 15:31:41 goddamn incompetent server-housing-companies Jul 12 15:31:57 So a highly modified GPE? Jul 12 15:32:16 I thought it was using Enlightenment for some reason. Jul 12 15:32:28 OpenMoko is not using GPE. Jul 12 15:32:37 It just happens to share the same window manager Jul 12 15:32:41 which is Matchbox Jul 12 15:33:00 mornin' blindcoder :) Jul 12 15:33:14 We are closely watching the Enlightenment Foundation Libraries for future platform releases Jul 12 15:33:45 For like the drawing lib and stuff? Jul 12 15:33:46 moin untwisted :) Jul 12 15:34:01 has anyone here used the telepathy library before? There doesn't seem to be much easily found information on it, or I'm just not good at this google game ;) Jul 12 15:34:18 untwisted: it's not just a library... Jul 12 15:34:22 untwisted: see #telepathy :) Jul 12 15:34:23 dtx: for the complete UI. Jul 12 15:34:45 dtx: but not E as in the window manager, just the libraries Jul 12 15:35:11 Im trying "make openmoko-devel-image" for the first time and its falling over with "package linux-2.6.20-r2: task do_unpack: failed" - anyone else see this problem Jul 12 15:35:13 thanks robot101 Jul 12 15:35:56 hi at all Jul 12 15:36:01 galexande: it adds uncertainty, lower limit is 16th (hmm.. actually its 16th in latest time zone... I'll change this) Jul 12 15:36:47 I'm an Italian translator of OpenMoko Jul 12 15:37:09 I need help, can someone hel me? Jul 12 15:37:11 help Jul 12 15:37:13 mickeyl: which libraries are the most likely to be used in openmoko? Jul 12 15:37:16 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ ) Jul 12 15:37:43 freskog: of EFL or GMAE? Jul 12 15:37:55 EFL. Jul 12 15:38:09 ah Jul 12 15:38:32 evas,eet,ecore,edje,efreet Jul 12 15:38:33 for sure Jul 12 15:38:41 epsilon,epdf,emotion very likely Jul 12 15:38:48 ewl or etk undecided Jul 12 15:38:56 Is there a prebuilt qemu image for download anywhere? Jul 12 15:39:10 Like a nightly or something Jul 12 15:39:11 Should I start learning their API now, or should I just wait for openmoko-libs to mature? Jul 12 15:40:01 I have a preblem with the SVN repositoty, are there someone can help me? Jul 12 15:40:26 Gualti, just explain the problem... Jul 12 15:40:35 freskog: i doesn't hurt to look into their APIs now, however it'll take a while until we introduce EFL in openmoko. We will be using Gtk+ for the main apps for quite a while [perhaps indefinitely]. I'm leaning towards a mix of GTK+ and EFL -- each has its own strenghts Jul 12 15:41:10 and thanks to X cooperation is no problem Jul 12 15:41:17 * mickeyl hesitates a bit but then hugs X11 Jul 12 15:41:24 :) Jul 12 15:41:25 mickeyl: But the long term plan is to abstract those away through openmoko-libs, right? Jul 12 15:41:31 mtd: I've translated some .po file in Italian but now how can I upload them into tehe repository? Jul 12 15:41:36 * xkr47 sends a beer to mickeyl Jul 12 15:41:58 woo mailinglists! Jul 12 15:42:02 * dtx steels beer from mickeyl and chugs it. Jul 12 15:42:09 freskog: it's more like complementing. I have always had a passion for high abstractions that introduce common behaviour, so that it's really simple to extend features of a platform in a consistent way. Jul 12 15:42:23 so we might have some super high level EFL objects Jul 12 15:42:25 * dtx is a bastard like that. Jul 12 15:42:37 however you can still treat them with the basic EFL low level functions Jul 12 15:42:38 Gualti, if you are allowed to write there do a `svn commit`. if you created new files use `svn add` before Jul 12 15:43:10 I don't have write access to the repository Jul 12 15:43:34 dtx: I think that what you need can be get with "wget http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/Makefile && make setup && make qemu".. and to update the flash image with the last built image, "make flash-qemu-official"... maybe someone with more experience than me with MokoMakefile can help you.. Jul 12 15:43:40 Gualti, that answers your question ;) Jul 12 15:44:15 mickeyl: Ok. I've pretty much been sitting on the fence think it would be EFL or GTK, but if it's possible to mix them in a sane way I guess that would be best (mixing developer pools and all that) Jul 12 15:44:28 s/think/thinking Jul 12 15:44:47 oh well thats simple Jul 12 15:45:10 So after doing some reading, its come down to libpurple or libempathy for the basis of this chat client... Jul 12 15:45:14 see you guys... Jul 12 15:45:30 I was expecting an openembedded complex setup like when building derivatives of OpenZaurus Jul 12 15:45:30 freskog: yeah. we definitely don't want to lock parties out. I'd even embrace Qt guys, if we manage to make these apps not look alien Jul 12 15:45:48 dtx: see http://buildhost.openmoko.org/ Jul 12 15:45:58 So, also i don't have access to the repository I can do "svn add" command", right? Jul 12 15:46:49 untwisted: I'd like it to be libempathy, and if not then libtelepathy. Empathy is higher-level but not sure in which direction they are taking it because there isn't a lot there at the moment (at least in terms of docs and I haven't had a chance to check out the code itself) Jul 12 15:47:06 mickeyl: how far has the integration of the EFL libs gotten? Do they build and possible even work ?-) Jul 12 15:48:37 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Wishlist:Accessories]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU/it]] [[GPS_Navigation]] [[User:Gualti]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[I2C/it]] [[Screen_Saver]] [[Battery/it]] [[USB_Product_IDs/it]] [[WM8753L/it]] [[I2C]] [[Footer/it]] [[Widget_Inheritance_Graph]] and other changes Jul 12 15:48:52 jgm: Would we be able to use libempathy-gtk as well, or does OpenMoko use some special GTK foo? Jul 12 15:49:11 freskog: i'm working on org.openembedded.dev again. they build and work fine on the device, but are not optimized or themed yet. once we officially announce the merge from OM svn to org.oe.dev, you should be able to build them for fic-gta01 machine. Jul 12 15:49:17 i may even put them on buildhost then Jul 12 15:50:05 mickeyl: Lovely, this just keeps getting better and better! Jul 12 15:50:09 :) Jul 12 15:50:30 it's all about freedom. you don't like gtk? screw it and use E. or Qt. or WxWidgets. or whatever :) Jul 12 15:50:35 * freskog is of to study the EFL-libraries. Jul 12 15:50:49 * freskog has nightmare about GTK. Jul 12 15:50:52 * mickeyl brews another Rooibos Vanilla tea Jul 12 15:51:02 s/nightmare/nightmares/ Jul 12 15:51:08 untwisted: well that depends. If we want a traditional IM client then libempathy-gtk would be fine (And would end up in what would look like a port of gossip) but I'd be inclined to build our own GUI components on top of libempathy to create an IM client that was a lot more use for a mobile 'phone Jul 12 15:51:29 yay, six hours of mail backlog trudging in, load skyrocketing, fun Jul 12 15:52:44 jgm: I'd say that would be the best route, we don't want something that doesn't feel natural. Unfortunately I guess there is no libempathy docs, just the code itself to work with. The guys in #telepathy said they'll answer questions if I update the wiki for them ;) Maybe libpurple IS the better way to go haha ;) Jul 12 15:53:22 That's the problem with building on open source, the dependencies kill you Jul 12 15:53:30 ja? Jul 12 15:53:51 You start out trying to build a cool messaging app and end up writing AT code for the modem :) Jul 12 15:54:20 Or importing a seventeen megabyte lib that also does dialup winmodems. Jul 12 15:54:39 How accurate is GPRS accounting typically? Jul 12 15:54:40 Yip Jul 12 15:55:49 Can I - for example - send 2K over an hour in 80 byte packets (one every 5 min say) Jul 12 15:55:59 and get it moderately accurately accounted? Jul 12 15:56:01 Well, off to lunch, be back later Jul 12 15:57:02 SpeedEvil: It may depend on the network but I do remember that one of my GPRS providers charged me for the packet overhead as well as the data. If that was the case there would be an optimum size of payload but no idea what it is (or if they still do that) Jul 12 15:57:16 I was assuming that the overhead would be charged. Jul 12 15:57:37 And that was 40 bytes of real data. Jul 12 15:58:56 But that sort of datarate is plausible for 'you have new email from foo (who is in your contact list), and the other way, GPS and activity reports. Jul 12 15:59:18 Is your real question "is there a trickle rate that will go unnoticed by the network"? Jul 12 15:59:25 No Jul 12 15:59:37 I was wondering if it would be overcounted. Jul 12 15:59:48 Ah Jul 12 16:00:15 I think that gets very provider-dependent Jul 12 16:00:20 Prolly. Jul 12 16:00:52 What would be really nice would be able to sending a couple of bytes. but... Jul 12 16:03:51 it would be interesting to know how fine grain providers GPRS charging is...i just assumed they divide the total amount of bytes by 1 kilobyte then multiple it by some cost and round up! Jul 12 16:04:21 I just heard about the openmoko project, and it looks perfect for what I want. Is the platform stable enough right now, or should I wait for the GTA02 before grabbing the hardware? Jul 12 16:04:32 Man I wish I had this MokoMakefile back when I was doing Zaurus dev Jul 12 16:04:55 The hardware is stable. Jul 12 16:04:57 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 12 16:07:13 so if you want to hack it, then go for it Jul 12 16:07:39 the neo has a 2.8 inch screen right? Jul 12 16:07:53 yep Jul 12 16:07:56 * galorin_ kicks his DSL modem Jul 12 16:08:03 2.8 inch 640x480 183dpi Jul 12 16:09:13 283dpi, rather. Jul 12 16:09:35 that seems insanely dense Jul 12 16:10:00 Ruddy modem drops connections at a whim.. Don't even know if my first question was asked, or anything by way of answeres Jul 12 16:11:30 The hardware is stable. Jul 12 16:11:32 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 12 16:11:43 don-o: indeed Jul 12 16:12:17 with X11 set to 280dpi I had to set 'sans/5' as default font Jul 12 16:12:19 SpeedEvil: GTA02 will have several hardware additions, right? Wi-Fi, accelerometers? Jul 12 16:12:22 yes Jul 12 16:12:30 Ahh, I see. Jul 12 16:13:08 galorin_: you're right in thinking that this looks really kick-ass Jul 12 16:13:15 will the software be ready for GTA02, or will it still be a dev platform? Jul 12 16:14:21 somewhere in the middle depending on when gta02 ships Jul 12 16:14:49 Well, the hardware can do what I want.. it's software that's the problem... Anything that someone with little coding experience can help with, or should I just stand back and watch for a while? Jul 12 16:14:50 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ ) Jul 12 16:16:27 still having problems getting mokomakefile to work - now failing on package uboot-gta01-1.2 with a "corrupted pack file" .git/objects/pack/pack-.... anyone seen this? Jul 12 16:16:36 jpcass: yes Jul 12 16:16:45 jpcass: upgrade git to 1.5.x and blame torvalds Jul 12 16:17:29 hrw: thanks! ok I'll update but reluctant to send too much blame at torvalds ;-) Jul 12 16:17:33 galorin_: there' Jul 12 16:17:39 s one way to gain experience Jul 12 16:19:16 galorin: it's basically coding for GTK - so it's a pretty transferrable skill. Or you can do it in python. Jul 12 16:20:33 openmoko: 03shoragan * r2381 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/util/shell.c: Jul 12 16:20:33 openmoko: Flush stdout after handling each event. Jul 12 16:20:33 openmoko: This should fix http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=606 Jul 12 16:23:11 when did mokomakefile start using git? Jul 12 16:25:59 don-o: Openembedded requires git so AFAIK it has been using git from the begining. Jul 12 16:26:27 Kensan: when i built openmoko a couple weeks ago, it used monotone Jul 12 16:26:37 bye Jul 12 16:27:08 don-o: git is used to pull the source from git-repos as commanded by certain recipes Jul 12 16:31:59 please update http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ChangeLog Jul 12 16:53:40 hello again, back from lunch Jul 12 16:58:04 wow Jul 12 16:58:08 did anyone see this on the wiki: Jul 12 16:58:09 UPDATE neo1973 made it straight through customs with no duty, delay or costs. Jul 12 16:58:40 happy happy day! Jul 12 16:58:48 ferric: isn't that the P0s? Jul 12 16:59:09 i hope there aren't like a couple of kernel hackers in california that are going to be responsible for ripping down the crates and putting them in shipping boxes Jul 12 16:59:38 SpeedEvil: oh. yes. Jul 12 16:59:41 (sorry) Jul 12 16:59:51 That's OK. We'll kill you quickly :) Jul 12 16:59:54 haha Jul 12 17:00:13 i just looked at the edits page on 'Shipping notes' and that edit from Liane is from a long time ago Jul 12 17:00:16 * galexande sharpens his knife Jul 12 17:00:24 * ScaredyCat grabs an axe Jul 12 17:00:32 ferric: Suzhou is an industrial park outside of Shanghai and it makes it easiert for companies in those parks to ship out products. Jul 12 17:00:42 ... will ferric blend ? Jul 12 17:01:17 * ferric runs. Jul 12 17:01:21 Kensan: ah. Jul 12 17:02:01 heh, i love how all of the information coming from FIC is as if the GTA01 is a regular product which is available for purchase Jul 12 17:02:12 rather than something which got completelygobbled up in basically one lump of orders on one day Jul 12 17:02:12 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ <- atleast that's new. :) Jul 12 17:02:24 ferric: paradoxically in some cases it is easier to ship items internationally than to the local chinese market. Jul 12 17:02:31 galexande: i think there are indications that they can produce as many as you want. Jul 12 17:02:50 Kensan: of course, exports bring in US $ Jul 12 17:02:56 everyone loves US$ Jul 12 17:02:57 :D Jul 12 17:03:14 especially the chinese gov't since they practically own half o the US forex. :) Jul 12 17:03:57 ferric, yeah but on the calendar it won't look like orders going on for months at a time, it'll look like 1000 orders on jul 9, and 1000 orders on sep 9 when the next batch is available Jul 12 17:03:58 :) Jul 12 17:06:58 does it really take two months to get a 1000 phones out? Jul 12 17:07:15 * ferric has no idea about manufacturing operations Jul 12 17:07:26 ferric, i think they said they could build more on a 6 week lead time Jul 12 17:07:35 ah Jul 12 17:07:47 well, sean sead Jul 12 17:08:00 how many P0 phones were distributed, anyone know? Jul 12 17:08:13 ferric, ~30 Jul 12 17:08:22 ah Jul 12 17:08:29 well, i don't know how many are going to come to the US Now Jul 12 17:08:45 considering the fact that there is significant interest in the phone from around the world Jul 12 17:09:13 they're being shipped from the US Jul 12 17:09:47 they're all going to the us, then getting shipped back out Jul 12 17:09:51 at least for the initial shipment of p1 Jul 12 17:09:59 ah Jul 12 17:10:00 simpler logistics Jul 12 17:10:18 i wonder if that's how other bigger manufacturers do it. (apple, etc.) Jul 12 17:10:38 probably? Jul 12 17:10:44 i know apple definately stocks in the us Jul 12 17:10:51 for international shipments? Jul 12 17:11:01 oh.. that Jul 12 17:11:02 i know shipments to the US ship from china Jul 12 17:11:13 no, apple is across the world, although its mostly concentrated in the us Jul 12 17:11:14 any status update on P1 shipment(s)? Jul 12 17:11:20 others don't sell just thousands of units direct to customers Jul 12 17:11:34 Kero: nothing other than the new FAQ page. Jul 12 17:11:38 mjr: true Jul 12 17:11:41 kero, no Jul 12 17:11:59 i'm surprised that FIC is making the tech team handle shipping logistics. Jul 12 17:12:12 i think that's what the openmoko company is all about.. Jul 12 17:12:26 the techies realized that the way FIC typically handles shipping wouldn't work, so they lobbied to get to control it all themselves Jul 12 17:12:30 FIC was totally supportive, but now it's a ton of work Jul 12 17:12:32 so openmoko is not owned by FIC? Jul 12 17:12:49 it is owned by FIC Jul 12 17:13:00 but at least some administrative decisions are made internally to openmoko Jul 12 17:13:01 oh but it is semi-autonomous Jul 12 17:13:07 cool. Jul 12 17:13:17 such as, presumably, how to run distribution Jul 12 17:13:20 they get some staff from fic Jul 12 17:14:13 ok, thx Jul 12 17:15:31 :o order page is different Jul 12 17:15:52 What changed? Jul 12 17:16:23 there's colour choices Jul 12 17:17:02 More than two? Jul 12 17:17:07 no... Jul 12 17:17:08 a minor oversight from the original ordering site Jul 12 17:17:11 ... Jul 12 17:17:13 but you get to pick... Jul 12 17:21:32 question re: openmoko building... I'm getting an error building openmoko-dialer - arm-linux-libtool can't execute dbus-binding-tool. I recall a mention of this earlier, but didn't see a fix. Jul 12 17:21:40 has anyone come across this problem? Jul 12 17:23:19 there needs to ne a new question on that faq... Jul 12 17:23:32 "Once your order has been confirmed, and the credit card has been charged, " Jul 12 17:23:38 moriarty, i did, and my solution was stupid, but you may use it too :) Jul 12 17:23:42 anyone get the phone Jul 12 17:23:44 Q. When are you going to charge my CC" Jul 12 17:23:47 NOTE: package bluez-libs-3.9: started Jul 12 17:23:52 oops, sorry Jul 12 17:23:55 galexande: stupid solutions are fine. :) Jul 12 17:24:09 that was meant to go elsewhere Jul 12 17:24:17 wow... 347 people in channel Jul 12 17:24:18 moriarty, in whatever directory openmoko-dialer is, there is a Makefile, and it has a definition for like GLIB_BIN which should be like /mokodir/build/tmp/staging/arm-linux/lib/../bin/ Jul 12 17:24:26 * mikeleib wonders how many developers there are Jul 12 17:24:29 moriarty, you need to change that arm-linux to i686-linux (or whatever your host-linux is) Jul 12 17:24:32 ah. Jul 12 17:24:53 because it should be running the host tools on the host :) Jul 12 17:24:55 do you know if that needs to be fixed upstream? Jul 12 17:25:11 Mike: several hundred - with varying amounts of commitment and contribution. Jul 12 17:25:12 i would assume it does, but i'm totally inept at bitmake/mokomakefile/monotone/svn Jul 12 17:25:16 zowy Jul 12 17:25:21 bitbake Jul 12 17:25:46 is there a way to browse trought newslists with thunderbird? (like a "real" newsserver?) Jul 12 17:26:24 turn threading on?? Jul 12 17:26:50 use gnus? Jul 12 17:27:37 pidgin stops working whenever I want to chat here.... :-( cu in 2 seconds Jul 12 17:27:54 * unknown_lamer has gaim held at 1.5 for a reason Jul 12 17:28:05 whhoooaaa!!! Jul 12 17:28:07 mkdir: cannot create directory `/etc/gtk-2.0': Permission denied Jul 12 17:28:19 good.. wtf are you trying to do that! Jul 12 17:28:20 galexande: they supposedly have parts ready for next patch, so they supposedly could produce it in few days once production is scheduled Jul 12 17:28:27 don't make install D: Jul 12 17:28:57 I didn;t Jul 12 17:28:58 it would be separate wait for customs though Jul 12 17:29:37 * aloril2 wonders if current wait has someting to do with FCC Jul 12 17:29:47 well it shouldn;t Jul 12 17:29:56 the FCC are irrelavant Jul 12 17:30:02 in the rest of the world Jul 12 17:30:09 btw, opengraphics has a minimal X driver for the dev board now Jul 12 17:30:10 galexande: thanks for the tip. Jul 12 17:30:16 FCC is evil Jul 12 17:30:20 yippe three pieces of free hardware lying about Jul 12 17:31:07 aloril, neat Jul 12 17:31:14 mori, did it work for you? :) my directions sucked i know :) Jul 12 17:32:02 oh I followed the directions. Jul 12 17:32:09 unfortunately I'm building on a really slow virtual machine. Jul 12 17:32:13 heh Jul 12 17:32:19 it doesn't get much faster on a real pc Jul 12 17:32:21 maybe a modern smp box Jul 12 17:32:24 if it doesn't work, I'm sure I can bodge it into functioning. Jul 12 17:32:58 galexande: technically this *is* a modern smp box. It's just VM'ed into thinking it's an 8088. :P Jul 12 17:33:02 took 308 minutes on a dual xeon 2.4ghz + 2gb ram Jul 12 17:33:20 damn Jul 12 17:33:20 heh Jul 12 17:33:32 maybe my dual athlon could do in a bit less time Jul 12 17:33:54 my five year old athlon with slow nfs storage took a good 12 hours of actual run-time, at least Jul 12 17:34:00 I'm sure if I could run it on all the cores, it would do better. Jul 12 17:34:06 * christian_ = wonderblood Jul 12 17:34:16 I am perplexed that gcc uses more ram compiling c++ than sbcl does when compiling lisp Jul 12 17:34:28 Moriarty_: make -j3 ? Jul 12 17:34:32 evolution of offloading work to the compiler Jul 12 17:34:54 unknown_lamer: the VM only has one core. :) Jul 12 17:34:59 ah Jul 12 17:35:02 * freskog wonders if anyone would mind if he builds openmoko using the fast labserver at his university... Jul 12 17:35:11 so whats a good name for an empathy based chat app ;) Jul 12 17:35:12 I don't. Jul 12 17:35:20 I didn't want to clutter up my normal world with all the openembedded packages. Jul 12 17:35:32 untwisted: moody? Jul 12 17:35:32 what could possibly go wrong? Jul 12 17:35:39 Moriarty_: chrooted debian install? Jul 12 17:35:49 almost. Full virtual machine. Jul 12 17:36:03 oh, I was suggesting that instead Jul 12 17:36:11 if you wanted to keep separate worlds and not lose the smp advantage Jul 12 17:36:20 wouldn't help. My 'normal world' is a virtual machine too. :) Jul 12 17:36:24 ah Jul 12 17:36:46 granted, once bitbake stops navel-gazing, it tends to move a little better. Jul 12 17:38:46 hmmm Jul 12 17:38:48 moody eh Jul 12 17:39:15 stupid bitbake trying to reach enlightenment Jul 12 17:40:52 hmmm, what about sympathy, or affinity Jul 12 17:42:32 untwisted: I actually quite like moody. Jul 12 17:45:53 where is the keyboard widget? Jul 12 17:46:08 * mikeleib doesn't see it in libmokoui Jul 12 17:46:29 freskog: I suppose moody could work Jul 12 17:47:30 empathy sounds a bit dorky if you ask me (wow that would sound really bad out of context), moody sounds more like a IM-client :) Jul 12 17:47:48 Well its based on the empathy libraries Jul 12 17:47:59 So I wouldn't name it empathy Jul 12 17:48:03 I know, that's why I like the contrast. Jul 12 17:48:11 oh oh, I see Jul 12 17:48:36 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[User:Cristraum]] [[Main_Page/ro]] [[FAQ/de]] [[Group_Order]] [[GSM_%26_GPRS_Connection_Status]] [[GSM_%26_GPRS_Connection_Status/it]] [[Battery_Monitor]] [[Battery_Monitor/it]] [[User:WonderBlood]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] and other changes Jul 12 17:49:04 Would you be interested in working on such a project? I want to register the project with OpenMokoProjects, but not until I have some manpower. I'm not sure how much time I'd have to dump in it :P Jul 12 17:49:22 Actually, yes. Jul 12 17:49:43 Have you use libempathy before? I personally have not. Jul 12 17:49:45 I've been looking for a first project for some time now. Jul 12 17:50:01 No, but that's half the fun now, isn't it :) Jul 12 17:50:06 haha, too true Jul 12 17:50:28 I believe they are planning a presentation of the library for guadec. Jul 12 17:50:52 when's GUADEC? Jul 12 17:50:56 The presentation is titled something like "how to write an IM-client in 20-lines of python" Jul 12 17:51:02 starts sunday. Jul 12 17:51:13 www.guadec.org Jul 12 17:51:14 yah, I saw that Jul 12 17:51:23 I'm extremely interested Jul 12 17:51:25 Some really nice talks this year. Jul 12 17:51:54 Usually they tape the presentations, so it possible to view (almost) all presentations afterwards. Jul 12 17:52:02 (online) Jul 12 17:52:17 Oh, awesome, I was really hoping to get a transcript, but that'd be great Jul 12 17:52:25 * mikeleib found it! Jul 12 17:52:37 input-methods.. duh Jul 12 17:52:43 would you like to join me in #moody-im? Jul 12 17:52:49 freskog: yeah, i was too lazy to check myself. it seems to be july 15-21. just around the corner of the weekend. Jul 12 17:52:51 we can discuss the idea a bit more Jul 12 17:53:39 already there... Jul 12 17:54:11 in #moody-im ? Jul 12 17:54:14 whoops Jul 12 17:54:17 I mistyped lol Jul 12 18:00:28 so are things going good with the phone Jul 12 18:01:04 wish we knew Jul 12 18:01:19 noone has one? Jul 12 18:01:29 phase0 devs do Jul 12 18:01:43 but those are only 30, and not the same hw Jul 12 18:01:56 have they sent out any new newsletters Jul 12 18:02:10 P1 devs have around 50 too Jul 12 18:02:17 no Jul 12 18:02:20 huh? Jul 12 18:03:46 man I hope this works out Jul 12 18:05:42 hi Jul 12 18:05:53 howdy Jul 12 18:06:11 when did p1 devs get em ~_~ Jul 12 18:08:29 there is a lot of people here :) Jul 12 18:08:49 yeah. not much to talk about yet Jul 12 18:09:21 perhaps we can try to speak about hoe to run t he OS on qemu Jul 12 18:11:21 hi Jul 12 18:11:42 howdy Jul 12 18:12:39 the flash.sh script dont work good on ubuntu feisty Jul 12 18:13:21 openmoko/flash.sh: line 88: 17296 Complรฉtรฉ $qemu -mtdblock "$script_dir/$flash_base" -kernel "$script_dir/$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0 Jul 12 18:13:21 U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. Jul 12 18:15:15 * mikeleib goes Jul 12 18:17:50 * ScaredyCat sighs Jul 12 18:18:44 my mistake script doing well Jul 12 18:23:54 hi folks Jul 12 18:23:54 :D Jul 12 18:24:48 anyone ... how long did it take for you guys to get the email with the order confimation Jul 12 18:24:54 ? Jul 12 18:25:24 i ordered mine today :D Jul 12 18:25:28 ruimoreira: I'm still waiting... ordered on Sun Jul 12 18:25:35 wow Jul 12 18:25:36 .... Jul 12 18:25:54 i am anxious to get mi device :P Jul 12 18:26:02 just relax :) Jul 12 18:26:05 Yeah. Jul 12 18:26:12 easy to say :D Jul 12 18:26:13 Those two months will pass by in no time. Jul 12 18:30:37 does anyone here use Neo as primary phone ? Jul 12 18:36:58 ruimoreira: what was your order / ticket #? Jul 12 18:38:41 noidd: checking .... plz hold :P Jul 12 18:39:16 33XX Jul 12 18:39:29 dear openmoko shipping department, Jul 12 18:39:33 my birthday is the 19th Jul 12 18:39:36 please take appropriate steps. Jul 12 18:39:52 :D Jul 12 18:39:59 galexande: mine is 17 th Jul 12 18:39:59 :D Jul 12 18:40:07 openmoko release party babies :) Jul 12 18:40:15 hope they do take those steps Jul 12 18:40:15 :D Jul 12 18:41:28 noidd: got it ? Jul 12 18:46:13 * ScaredyCat just wishes there was some information.. Jul 12 18:46:51 hi all Jul 12 18:47:27 ScaredyCat: i think everyone does :P Jul 12 18:47:48 * Kero can not look at anythingmore current from his credit card since Jun 27 Jul 12 18:47:57 * ScaredyCat sobs into coffee Jul 12 18:47:57 deprived of even that info... Jul 12 18:48:51 at least you aren't deprived of coffee :( Jul 12 18:49:25 * Kero is deprived of coffee, too Jul 12 18:49:45 should buy new coffee in the little shop in the city centre sooner rather than later :) Jul 12 18:49:47 Kero: Hold on mate :P .... Jul 12 18:50:07 still got tea, beer and stronger stuff :) Jul 12 18:51:19 anybody else get a failed build with mokomakefile at coreutils? Jul 12 18:51:32 coreutils-native, that is. Jul 12 18:54:10 it's cold coffee from last week Jul 12 18:54:44 I was seeing if I could grow something useful before my pokey mokey arrived Jul 12 18:55:20 is october the definitive release-date for the gta02? Jul 12 18:55:21 phrozen77: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 12 18:55:47 ehehe nice script - i know the wiki inside out now already :P Jul 12 18:56:55 phrozen77: no, i wouldn't look at it as a definitive release date. Jul 12 18:57:22 that'd make a *perfect* birthday-present, though :P Jul 12 18:57:29 phrozen, i wouldn't bet on it Jul 12 18:57:42 yah - i never bet on announced rls-dates =) Jul 12 18:57:45 thats why im asking Jul 12 18:58:44 i mean - the gta01 already almost sealed the deal to me - but hearing it'll support wifi in a few months makes me wish for a timemachine Jul 12 18:59:13 i think the heuristic for determining whether a release date is accurate or a wild-assed-guess is: date_sub(release, interval 2 weeks) < now() ==> definitive date Jul 12 18:59:22 ^^ Jul 12 18:59:53 spliff - BTW: The sirfIII based thingy I have for comparison here is better than the Neo. :-| Jul 12 18:59:58 huh Jul 12 19:00:03 SpeedEvil - BTW: The sirfIII based thingy I have for comparison here is better than the Neo. :-| Jul 12 19:00:15 or checking back when the gta01 has been anounced to be released and with when we got it this time =) Jul 12 19:00:32 might be a good indicator too Jul 12 19:00:42 phrozen77 - it has been released. What's the problem? Jul 12 19:01:01 elrond, phrozen was just suggesting the use of science to determine the precision of release date estimates :) Jul 12 19:01:02 * phrozen77 bites his tongue Jul 12 19:01:10 thanks galexande :) Jul 12 19:01:12 Elrond: 'd be interesting to do proper comparison. Jul 12 19:01:20 Elrond: same antenna. Jul 12 19:01:33 Ho wmuch? Jul 12 19:01:43 sirf3 is a bit higher power usually Jul 12 19:01:49 SpeedEvil - Yeah, I of course compared complete set. ;-) Jul 12 19:01:54 sirf3=gps? Jul 12 19:01:59 yeah, gps chipset Jul 12 19:01:59 Yes Jul 12 19:02:12 Elrond: you did point GPS to sky first? Jul 12 19:02:14 does sirf3 work in buildings? :) Jul 12 19:02:17 the GPS antenna Jul 12 19:03:05 SpeedEvil - "How much"... well, the sirfIII gets a fix on my desk <5min. the neo can ly around for hours and doesn't get anything. Even worse: I took it outisde for 10 minutes (so it gets the almanac/ephemeris for real), while leaving it on, took it to my desk. It lost signal very quickly. Jul 12 19:03:16 Hmm. Jul 12 19:03:19 ohwell Jul 12 19:03:25 is it possible to put an sirf3 into neo? ;) Jul 12 19:03:35 No. Jul 12 19:03:41 Not practically. Jul 12 19:03:41 that was an easy answer Jul 12 19:03:44 something tells me "plaster and lath" will block gps completely and my phone will never know when i'm ohme Jul 12 19:03:54 i guess it will ask my bluetooth for its location :) Jul 12 19:04:05 galexande: depends. Jul 12 19:04:06 ool Jul 12 19:04:08 lol Jul 12 19:04:15 revert to cell id / gps lookup Jul 12 19:04:16 the neo does have a semi-convenient gps antenna connector (iirc) if you want external antenna Jul 12 19:04:23 galexande: the roof stucvture and the thickness. Jul 12 19:04:38 Actually. Jul 12 19:04:49 SpeedEvil - of course the antenna on the neo might not be connected correctly, etc. So this is all "my neo", not "neo in general". Jul 12 19:05:04 your p0 neo ? Jul 12 19:05:07 GPS modules are small enough that you could in fact add it on inside the case. Jul 12 19:05:10 SpeedEvil - Yes. Jul 12 19:05:17 ScaredyCat - Yes. Jul 12 19:05:38 has the h/w changed much between p0 and p1 ? Jul 12 19:05:46 in real terms Jul 12 19:05:50 bug fixes Jul 12 19:05:50 Not much. Jul 12 19:05:54 important ones Jul 12 19:05:54 ScaredyCat - Only bugs fixed, small improvements. Jul 12 19:06:11 User-visible other than the bugfixes - none. Jul 12 19:06:44 I wouldn't be surprised, if P0 have been hand assembled, and thus the antenna connection isn't 100%. Jul 12 19:07:23 well, the youtube video of gps looks like it's done indoors, but it could be a shed with a tarp roof :) Jul 12 19:07:23 It's not impossible Jul 12 19:07:38 galexande: look on the Global Locate website. Jul 12 19:07:45 liked the drop-test =) Jul 12 19:07:48 They claim lock inside a metal filing cabinet. Jul 12 19:08:01 speed, yeah a friend-of-a-friend works for them and says it should work indoors Jul 12 19:08:13 Well, my roof has lots metal in it. ;-) Jul 12 19:08:42 hi there, Is the neo 1973's CPU an ARM one ? Jul 12 19:08:43 Moo1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 12 19:08:52 * SpeedEvil moos. Jul 12 19:08:58 :P Jul 12 19:09:04 (in an affirmative way) Jul 12 19:09:32 To repeat: This is anything but a citable or proper benchmark, nor does it say anything about the Bv04s sold now. Jul 12 19:09:46 mool, indeed Jul 12 19:10:08 as someone who likes to post diatribes on his website, i am confused about how to talk about neo Jul 12 19:10:26 because i will inevitably review the included software at gta01 release and say some mean things, but i will be happy about the state of things and i don't want anyone getting the wrong idea Jul 12 19:10:38 mjr: do you answer to my question ? Jul 12 19:11:01 * mjr also affirms great lag Jul 12 19:11:05 galexande - Just cite mickey on the state of the software, job done. Jul 12 19:11:11 Moo1, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware Jul 12 19:11:41 phrozen77: yes, I know this page but it is no specified Jul 12 19:12:25 Moo1, no, I just said "indeed" for the hell of it Jul 12 19:12:37 moo, you may enjoy http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware Jul 12 19:12:46 that has links to all thhe detailed info you could deram of Jul 12 19:13:03 oh, i'm slow Jul 12 19:13:16 getting older? =) Jul 12 19:13:26 me bones, they be a creakin Jul 12 19:13:44 i hear you (no pun intended) :P Jul 12 19:16:09 *** LD_LIBRARY_PATH shouldn't contain the current directory when Jul 12 19:16:09 | *** building glibc. Please change the environment variable Jul 12 19:16:09 | *** and run configure again. Jul 12 19:16:20 if my neo doesn't get here soon, i'm going to make a neo-shaped cardboard cutout and tape it to my phone Jul 12 19:16:21 How should I chage this Jul 12 19:16:41 dtx: exprt LD_LIBRARY_PATH? Jul 12 19:16:52 dtx, do you have a manually-defined LD_LIBRARY_PATH like in your .bashrc? Jul 12 19:17:04 It's just /usr/local/panda3d/lib Jul 12 19:17:08 nothing else Jul 12 19:17:16 It does have a colon on the end Jul 12 19:17:17 galexande: I already made a paper mockup to see how big it would be. Jul 12 19:17:19 beats me, i never had that problem Jul 12 19:17:20 could that cause problems? Jul 12 19:17:35 heh mori i just compared the numbers to palmtops i've have known and loved Jul 12 19:17:36 (waiting for an 02 unless the board swap option is available...) Jul 12 19:17:38 galexande: lol @ cardboard cut-out Jul 12 19:17:57 even guesstimated the screen size and drew a screen on it. :P Jul 12 19:18:02 lolol Jul 12 19:18:08 draw a bsod on the screen :) Jul 12 19:18:32 for those wondering, take a 2G ipod and add about an inch to the height. Jul 12 19:18:34 that's the neo. Jul 12 19:18:42 'height' being the longest axis. Jul 12 19:19:08 or take a ruler and.... Jul 12 19:19:10 nevermind Jul 12 19:19:13 :-P Jul 12 19:19:19 what about thickness? Jul 12 19:19:26 about the same, actually. Jul 12 19:19:29 (waiting for an 02 unless the board swap option is available...) <- will there be one? Jul 12 19:19:35 I don't know. Jul 12 19:19:38 that's why I'm waiting. Jul 12 19:19:45 (please use measurements of number 2b pencils) Jul 12 19:19:50 meh, gonna sit it out too then :| Jul 12 19:20:03 i hope to add a inch to whatever Jul 12 19:20:23 my old phone sucks ... need my own neo Jul 12 19:20:24 only real reason I'm waiting is a) I'm not really a mobile developer (though I would be happy to do user testing), and b) I can't justify buying two phones. Jul 12 19:20:59 Moriarty_, nice point ;) Jul 12 19:21:17 When it bombs out will make openmoko-devel-image pick up where it left off or start completely over again? Jul 12 19:21:35 if you got halfway through, openmoko-devel-image should pick up where it left off. Jul 12 19:21:44 awesome Jul 12 19:21:49 if you do update setup openmoko-devel-image it'll pick up new stuff too. Jul 12 19:21:55 (all hail make!) :P Jul 12 19:22:20 ;-) Jul 12 19:22:33 and bitbake Jul 12 19:22:46 yes, but make is the one that actually does the deps, I think. Jul 12 19:23:05 * Moriarty_ isn't familiar enough with bitbake to say though. Jul 12 19:23:26 I had to use it a lot when working on OpenZaurus stuff Jul 12 19:23:36 fun times Jul 12 19:23:40 i bet. Jul 12 19:23:42 I actually kinda like it Jul 12 19:23:49 counter? Jul 12 19:23:49 (last update 2007-07-10 13:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 60% in 5 days 16:36:05 (5.692ยฑ3.0 days) (1734;246) Jul 12 19:23:53 !! Jul 12 19:24:10 ? Jul 12 19:24:39 I wish I would've realized that this bombed out on glibc before I went to lunch Jul 12 19:24:49 would have saved me a lot of time Jul 12 19:28:34 Moriarty_, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/006108.html Jul 12 19:29:14 Hello Jul 12 19:30:46 what a conversationalist Jul 12 19:30:50 yeah Jul 12 19:30:54 phrozen77: right, but I don't think it's been confirmed yet. Jul 12 19:30:56 lol Jul 12 19:31:18 you will not be able to hand upgrade the board, according to most sources. Jul 12 19:31:38 i'm sure it's technically trivial, but distribution-wise it may be a nightmare Jul 12 19:31:41 why - technically, i'd think it'd be only a matter of swapping boards? Jul 12 19:31:43 and they don't need more business management nightmares at openmoko Jul 12 19:32:25 anyways, off to work - hf, bbl Jul 12 19:33:02 well, then it's a painful six months of waiting for me. Jul 12 19:33:09 and an emulator to soothe my pain. :P Jul 12 19:43:34 no, it's not techincally trivial - someone said earlier that it is fairly hard swapping the board out without breaking something Jul 12 19:43:37 from a P0 neo Jul 12 19:43:59 well, it might be hard the way laptop surgery is hard, but i know many successful laptop surgeons Jul 12 19:44:10 chuckle Jul 12 19:44:13 everything on the board looks like it has a detachable connector Jul 12 19:44:36 * ferric is just repeeating what he's heard Jul 12 19:44:47 and i'm just speculating from photos of prototypes :) Jul 12 19:45:42 * SpeedEvil has removed the internal soundcard of his laptop. Jul 12 19:45:53 my only two wishes (quibbles, really) are EDGE support and a camera. Jul 12 19:46:02 patience :) Jul 12 19:46:07 I know. Jul 12 19:46:10 Then rerouted the USB external connector to an internal USB hub. Jul 12 19:46:11 and as I said, just quibbles. Jul 12 19:46:22 then added a USB internal soundcard and wifi. Jul 12 19:46:30 Fun :) Jul 12 19:46:32 EDGE would be nice for mobile network in the absence of wifi. Jul 12 19:46:34 wow speed, your laptop must have all sorts of spare room Jul 12 19:46:40 i'm still scared to take apart my ibook Jul 12 19:46:44 It's a Toshiba 3110CT. Jul 12 19:46:47 1.1Kg Jul 12 19:46:55 and a camera of some kind would let me rig the phone to do fun things with UPC codes. :) Jul 12 19:46:58 Battery life of 6-8 hours with upgraded cells. Jul 12 19:47:20 Internal modem was huge - 5cm*6cm*0.5cm Jul 12 19:47:21 google doesn't seem to know upc codes anymore, i am confused Jul 12 19:47:43 think of tagging gift ideas Jul 12 19:47:46 sweet. Jul 12 19:47:55 camera could make a great UI for doom... Jul 12 19:47:56 or figuring out which albums are RIAA-controlled in the store. :P Jul 12 19:48:13 the accelerometers on the 02 gave me an idea for a game I might try to code up. Jul 12 19:48:49 I use my camera very often. For taking pictures of price labels in shops, with the merchandise. Jul 12 19:48:51 it'd be a great ui for some of the marble games Jul 12 19:48:53 fvgbhnm Jul 12 19:48:56 To do comparison shopping. Jul 12 19:49:28 there needs to be a bluetooth heads-up-display for glasses Jul 12 19:49:30 I've thought of that too. Jul 12 19:49:46 and a bluetoothh mind-reading interface Jul 12 19:49:47 damn my perfect eyesight Jul 12 19:49:47 Marble games, multi-marbles into hole games, Jul 12 19:50:10 Sliding block games Jul 12 19:50:18 shaketris! Jul 12 19:50:34 egg timer Jul 12 19:50:39 the accelerometers excite me more than the wifi Jul 12 19:50:41 Yo-yo simulator. Jul 12 19:51:06 galexande: fundamentally if they use the ones suggested, there is little benefit in two versus one. Jul 12 19:51:21 They will be able to sense where taps on the case are. Jul 12 19:51:35 Moriarty_: If you want to scan to see which albums are controlled by the RIAA, you can just make your app short circuit true Jul 12 19:51:51 But not actual information on pitch or yaw. Jul 12 19:51:53 Don't need a camera for that Jul 12 19:52:02 heh Jul 12 19:52:09 but not all labels are RIAA-affiliated. Jul 12 19:52:24 Just take a list of the four that aren't :) Jul 12 19:52:28 haha Jul 12 19:52:35 which would those be? Jul 12 19:52:53 (I do know there are probably >4) Jul 12 19:53:18 Who knows, they aren't promoted by the fine folks over at the RIAA Jul 12 19:53:25 :-P Jul 12 19:53:41 So I'll never hear of 'em Jul 12 19:53:44 heh. Jul 12 19:53:57 this is what internet radio and amazon are for. :P Jul 12 19:54:29 and ocremix Jul 12 19:54:55 I wish mp3.com didn't go down the tubes Jul 12 19:55:39 ditto. They had some awesome stuff. Jul 12 19:55:45 yeah Jul 12 19:56:03 including stuff by now-defunct bands that's otherwise impossible to find. Jul 12 19:56:11 yea Jul 12 19:56:39 I suppose a decent indy music site should be Kevin Rose's next project Jul 12 19:57:31 huh? Jul 12 19:57:43 wtf has he got to do with indie music Jul 12 19:57:49 nothing Jul 12 19:57:55 he is just setting up websites left and right Jul 12 19:58:04 and he apparently is getting a lot of VC attention Jul 12 19:58:22 yeah, it just means the VC's haven't learned anything Jul 12 19:58:34 thank god Jul 12 19:59:02 it's not really that much of a suprise... Jul 12 19:59:16 yeah Jul 12 19:59:57 what's VC ? Jul 12 20:00:11 Venture Capital? Jul 12 20:00:16 venture cretin Jul 12 20:00:18 venture capitalist Jul 12 20:00:20 yea Jul 12 20:00:50 more money than brains Jul 12 20:01:04 galexande: looks like your hackish fix to openmoko-dialer works. Jul 12 20:01:08 yay! Jul 12 20:01:16 i knew it kinda worked, i just didn't know if i remembered it right :) Jul 12 20:01:23 it's the Makefile in openmoko-dialer/src, to be specific. Jul 12 20:01:34 hackish? Fix? Jul 12 20:01:36 the real fix is to fix Makefile.in or Makefile.am to use the host platform instead of the target one for these things Jul 12 20:01:42 right. Jul 12 20:01:50 I think it's Makefile.am. Jul 12 20:02:00 I just need to figure out what needs to be done to test. Jul 12 20:02:02 alpha, openmoko-dialer uses GLIB_BIN or DBUS_GLIB_BIN of build/tmp/staging/arm-linux/lib/../bin when it should use staging/i686-linux/... Jul 12 20:02:10 mori, you can build a qemu image :) Jul 12 20:02:13 (but first, let's get this thing built!) Jul 12 20:02:18 that's what I'm doing actually. Jul 12 20:02:24 ah ok Jul 12 20:02:37 I just need to figure out how to modify the build env without MokoMakefile blowing away my changes. Jul 12 20:02:44 galexande: ah, okay.. Jul 12 20:03:01 yeah mori that's the big mystery for me too. you may have to follow the procedure for making a patch, it is in the wiki for mokomakefile Jul 12 20:03:19 that would be fine. Jul 12 20:13:00 Hello everyone! Been away for the day. Has anyone figured out why Harald is so frustrated? http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/linux/openmoko/ Jul 12 20:13:12 we have speculated! Jul 12 20:13:16 :) Jul 12 20:13:18 ...but no, no idea Jul 12 20:13:24 besides overwork Jul 12 20:13:46 hopefully thats all it is. Jul 12 20:14:09 Its good to see that hte community list is working again Jul 12 20:14:10 does anyone know if is there a OpenMoko/AddressBook->Ldap AddressBook Jul 12 20:14:22 connector .... Jul 12 20:18:36 btw what disto do you people use to develop stuff for Openmoko ? Jul 12 20:19:44 shouldn't matter Jul 12 20:20:04 i use suse, some use debian, redhat ubuntu Jul 12 20:20:38 ScaredyCat: i'm using fedora 7 .... Jul 12 20:21:31 having a few issues building Jul 12 20:22:03 installed all the deps ? Jul 12 20:22:23 yeap Jul 12 20:25:16 ruimor, what package is failing? Jul 12 20:26:42 galexande: 1 sec plz .... Jul 12 20:27:21 after rebuilding everything for like 10h i still end up with the same problem of not seeing my changes in the rootfs. damn. Jul 12 20:27:45 How can I get mokomakefile to build vim into the image? (It's already available in openembedded tree) Jul 12 20:29:25 galexande: this will take a wile ... trying to compile as we speak .... Jul 12 20:30:19 what's the approximate boot-up time on the actual hardware atm? Jul 12 20:30:32 aevin, i've heard two minutes, it is not streamlined at all. Jul 12 20:31:29 Yeah, that's something that will definately needs to work on. Jul 12 20:31:39 ewan, volunteering? Jul 12 20:31:43 w/\ will// Jul 12 20:31:43 okay, thanks. i was afraid it was a lot worse than 2 mins. Jul 12 20:32:15 s/w/s/ ;-) Jul 12 20:32:17 galexande: I wouldn't mind, but I would like myprevious question answered first. Jul 12 20:33:01 s/my/my\ / Jul 12 20:33:01 ewanm89_laptop meant: galexande: I wouldn't mind, but I would like my\ previous question answered first. Jul 12 20:33:33 apt doesn't know about escaping? Jul 12 20:33:45 seems like it doesn't want it. Jul 12 20:37:19 well, ewan, i think your first step will be to go into moko/build and run ". ../setup-env; bitbake vim" Jul 12 20:37:28 as i understand it, that will build vim-blah.ipk somewhere Jul 12 20:38:27 and the rootfs seems to be built in build/tmp/rootfs, and i don't know how you tell what goes in there... but you could just pput the ipk file in the rootfs, and do whatever it takes to rebuild the qemu image from the rootfs, and then you can use ipkg install vim-bblah.ipk to install it. Jul 12 20:39:09 or you can put the ipk on a SD card Jul 12 20:39:15 Can't you mount another thing inside qemu? Like the sd card? Jul 12 20:39:27 I believe so Jul 12 20:39:48 Um, if SD card reader worked ;) Jul 12 20:39:58 USB memory stick? Jul 12 20:40:12 doesn't it? i vaguely recall sd/mmc being implemented in om's qemu Jul 12 20:40:21 I don't know, if qemu emulates an usb memory stick. Jul 12 20:40:29 * anrp vaguely recalls a whole bunch of things -_- Jul 12 20:40:41 I thought a read just today about it supporting SD in qemu Jul 12 20:40:49 mainline and OpenMoko Jul 12 20:40:59 But it would probably see it as another mass storage device. Jul 12 20:41:23 Any way, it's Tuesdays qemu build. Jul 12 20:43:16 SD card Works This part is already in mainline QEMU. Use the "-sd cardimagegoeshere" switch to point QEMU to the card image. The regular QEMU monitor commands for removable media can also be used. The card works, however the on-chip host controller gave block length errors on heavy I/O despite working as described in specification. I suspect the kernel driver. DMA operation is not tested. Jul 12 20:43:18 Is default to run openmoko as root? Jul 12 20:44:05 ewanm89_laptop - Yes. :-| Jul 12 20:44:12 why ? Jul 12 20:44:23 btw.... Jul 12 20:44:24 :P Jul 12 20:45:06 Elrond: Wouldn't password less sudo be better? Jul 12 20:45:28 I don't know, but it would be cool if OpenMoko would run web browser/e-mail sudo some jailed user Jul 12 20:46:32 SpeedEvil - Can you post your default software-question answer? Jul 12 20:47:13 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 12 20:47:43 dtx: I was thinking off doing it the other way around, only use root in package manager, or when chosen on the terminal? Jul 12 20:48:00 SpeedEvil - Thanks. :-) May I copy it? Jul 12 20:48:13 Add to a bot? Jul 12 20:48:17 sURE Jul 12 20:48:22 Sure Jul 12 20:48:23 ewanm89_laptop - See SpeedEvil's standard answer. In your case: because nobody did the job. Jul 12 20:48:49 Elrond: So it would be a good idea to me to do? Jul 12 20:48:57 ewanm89_laptop: In some cases, you don't even want the user to have access to root. Jul 12 20:49:10 ewanm89_laptop - If you want to care, yes. Jul 12 20:49:35 Consider giving a phone to an employee - you may not want them to install stuff. Jul 12 20:50:14 SpeedEvil: Well, I was thinking that, but it would be needed for package management, isn't it supposed to be a freed phone? Jul 12 20:50:24 Owner!=user Jul 12 20:50:39 Ok, so maybe a hook for the employer. Jul 12 20:50:50 Take as an extreme example someone that picks up the phone after you walk away from it for 30s. Jul 12 20:50:52 SpeedEvil: owner != user is a nice idea, but the opposite philosophy to the openmoko. Jul 12 20:51:07 well. I guess I don't even think it's a nice idea. Jul 12 20:51:41 Owner == Owner, meaning they want full control over it Jul 12 20:51:41 I want the ability to lock a phone I buy down so hard it can't even be reflashed with the JTAG. Jul 12 20:51:45 SpeedEvil: Ok, so we use a passworded user, and full sudo? Jul 12 20:51:58 SpeedEvil: obviously not possible with the moko. Jul 12 20:52:12 well, you can do various things with epoxy and so on. Jul 12 20:52:12 Owner gets full access to everything. If they give it to a user, they may not give all rights over. Jul 12 20:52:24 but I just think it's weird to talk about them here Jul 12 20:52:38 you have an entire market of unfreed phones to lock down. go play with those. :) Jul 12 20:52:44 But its the owner's freedom Jul 12 20:52:55 Soldering iron plus epoxy works very well. Jul 12 20:53:06 Yeah - consider your desktop. You buy it, you can put a password on it, ... Jul 12 20:53:07 The user could just go buy their own phone if they wanted Jul 12 20:53:11 blowtorch! Jul 12 20:53:22 Or your employer buys it, and they can lock it down. Jul 12 20:53:24 nothing stands up to the mighty oxyacetylene Jul 12 20:53:32 SpeedEvil: .. and if someone else is sitting at it, they can boot it init=/bin/sh. Jul 12 20:53:49 cjb: not with adequately secured boot loader. Jul 12 20:53:57 can you not passwd protect u-boot? Jul 12 20:54:04 Even lilo can take a password before it'll let you do that Jul 12 20:54:21 dtx: that's one of the things I'm thinking of trying to add. Jul 12 20:54:35 I agree, I'd like to lock mine down when I get it Jul 12 20:54:50 I'll try and get user accounts plus sudo done then? Jul 12 20:55:00 :-) Jul 12 20:55:05 SpeedEvil: .. ok, change "do init=/bin/sh" to "replace the hard drive with their own, then use it/mount my data". Jul 12 20:55:17 That's what case locks are for. Jul 12 20:55:33 haha Jul 12 20:55:35 and does anyone any of us knows use all of these things? :) Jul 12 20:55:51 Personally, as an experiment. Jul 12 20:55:53 I use physical security, anybody messes with my computer I kick their ass Jul 12 20:56:05 cjb: And HD encryption if you don't mind the phone being so slow it crawls and the battery only lasts ten minutes. Jul 12 20:56:07 But thats just a personal policy Jul 12 20:56:14 I've on this lappy got swap to AES setup, as well as encrypted suspend-disk. Jul 12 20:56:15 Well... I don't like thinking about it... but yes, in my former company we applied a case lock on one computer... for one specific employe. Jul 12 20:56:41 why for just him? Jul 12 20:56:46 SpeedEvil: Where do you place the for wake-up? Jul 12 20:56:58 Well, for security purposes it is necessary to physically lock down some computers Jul 12 20:56:58 SpeedEvil: - key - Jul 12 20:57:20 Kensan: basically. On boot. Encrypt swapfile with a random key. Jul 12 20:57:34 orzo - He used to mess with the hardware.... and then call the admins "Heck, my cdrom does not work any more". The admins finally found out, that he exchanged the cdrom drive. Jul 12 20:57:50 Kensan: then take that random key, and hash it with my passphrase, and store that on suspend. Jul 12 20:58:06 SpeedEvil: yes, but where do you store it? Jul 12 20:58:20 usbkey Jul 12 20:58:32 Kensan: configure loop device with hashed passphrase and stored (disk) key. Jul 12 20:58:50 Kensan: then tell resume to resume from that device Jul 12 20:58:54 clever Jul 12 20:58:59 how come he wasnt fired? Jul 12 20:59:08 he must have stole the other cdrom drive Jul 12 20:59:17 Hell, just put a TPM chip in there :-P Jul 12 20:59:22 j/k Jul 12 20:59:22 orzo - He did not steal it. Or at least I don't know. Jul 12 20:59:31 SpeedEvil: loop-aes or dm-crypt? Jul 12 20:59:38 orzo - And there are people you can't fire ;o) Jul 12 20:59:50 cryptoloop Jul 12 20:59:58 dtx: I played around with putting symmetric keys on smartcards. Jul 12 21:00:04 the weaknesses don't really apply. Jul 12 21:00:13 dtx: allows you to do crypt the entire disk. Jul 12 21:00:30 what's the news on the phones? Jul 12 21:00:37 still no confirmation email Jul 12 21:00:47 are they in the US? Jul 12 21:00:53 orzo: No. Jul 12 21:00:54 orzo Jul 12 21:01:15 i thought they were already being shipped there Jul 12 21:01:24 They are. Jul 12 21:01:31 But no notes that they've arrived. Jul 12 21:01:31 i thought they were going by plane Jul 12 21:01:38 It's not impossible they are there. Jul 12 21:01:46 How do you boot with a completely crypted HD? Jul 12 21:01:56 Boot sector uncrypted I suppose Jul 12 21:01:56 :-P Jul 12 21:02:10 dtx: hardware encryptors and keys Jul 12 21:02:34 ah Jul 12 21:02:42 dtx: during bootup you enter your passphrase -> cryptoroot gets mounted -> "normal" bootup Jul 12 21:02:55 oh that would be a bitch, IMO Jul 12 21:03:02 SpeedEvil: you don't need hardware crypto Jul 12 21:03:07 Kensan: that does give you virtualisation problems though. Jul 12 21:03:11 SpeedEvil: seems like a lot of effort just to protect your porn Jul 12 21:03:13 with no input ability Jul 12 21:03:19 Get lots of late night calls "The server is down what's the password to bring it back up?" Jul 12 21:03:35 Followed by the oblig. "Hold on I'll be there in a minute" Jul 12 21:04:00 dtx: Debian Etch let's you setup an entirely crypted install through the installer. Very comfortably, no headache at all. Jul 12 21:04:21 dtx: in principle - you can do that nicely. For example, you have 12 people with keys. You need 4 of them to be there to supply the key. Jul 12 21:04:23 SpeedEvil: what problems do you mean? Jul 12 21:04:44 Kensan: I boot your image in vmware, and let you enter the password to it. Jul 12 21:05:03 SpeedEvil: that's why you want smartcards. Jul 12 21:05:17 Smartcards don't solve that problem. Jul 12 21:05:32 SpeedEvil: they do. All crypto-operations are done on the smartcard- Jul 12 21:05:35 haha, that's not so nice for me I am 1/2 people that know anything at all about computers Jul 12 21:05:38 Only hardware encryption properly done partially solves it. Jul 12 21:06:26 Kensan: yes, all the crypto operations are done on the smartcard. Which doesn't help you if Bob has put your booting image in VMware, and that's talking to the smartcard, and logging keys. Jul 12 21:06:30 keystrokes Jul 12 21:06:48 How about a chip that stores a key, that gets wiped when the case is opened Jul 12 21:06:48 SpeedEvil: obviously you want Level3 SC-Readers with a pinpad. Jul 12 21:06:51 Problem solved Jul 12 21:07:01 Physical security ++ Jul 12 21:07:24 we could also take the approach that it's just a phone, there's no souper seekrit data on it Jul 12 21:07:27 ;/ Jul 12 21:07:29 Yeah, just hope the hardware never gets messed up and you need to recover data Jul 12 21:07:38 That's what backups are for. Jul 12 21:07:42 true Jul 12 21:08:06 Which is where people would probably steal the data from anyways. Your backups in the coat closet Jul 12 21:08:07 haha Jul 12 21:08:16 Encrypted backups. Jul 12 21:08:43 With actual physical security for the unencrypted key. Jul 12 21:08:45 and your SmartCard from your cold dead fingers :-P Jul 12 21:08:57 night guys Jul 12 21:09:00 Iris recognition. Jul 12 21:09:06 and your eyeball Jul 12 21:09:08 :-P Jul 12 21:09:12 You can detect the pulse in the iris, so it's quite hard to fake. Jul 12 21:09:27 use the 3d acc for your password... Jul 12 21:09:36 shake a rythmn passwords Jul 12 21:10:03 My password would be dropping the unit Jul 12 21:10:33 0g for 1 second Jul 12 21:11:07 net 0g Jul 12 21:13:11 SpeedEvil: I would hate to have to be one of the backup admins at your place ;-) Jul 12 21:13:25 dtx: I don't do this professionally. Jul 12 21:13:32 Well, ok then Jul 12 21:13:35 I was just talking theory. Jul 12 21:13:38 Just paranoid Jul 12 21:13:40 hehe Jul 12 21:13:48 31,000 tonnes - live earth carbon footprint. Jul 12 21:13:50 It is theoretically possible to address pretty much all cases. Jul 12 21:13:50 What do you do? Jul 12 21:13:53 It is messy. Jul 12 21:14:17 ATM I'm not working. Health problems. I've got unreliable health - precluding 9-5 Jul 12 21:14:17 Once you address all the cases you make it very hard to do practical things like recover from disasters while in Mexico or something Jul 12 21:14:40 You have to write that into the security protocols. Jul 12 21:14:52 Disaster recovery seperate from crypto is not practical. Jul 12 21:15:35 Right, but disaster recovery with crypto is not too fun Jul 12 21:15:52 And requires lots of training of personel Jul 12 21:16:07 I just prefer physical security Jul 12 21:16:14 Right. Jul 12 21:16:20 But crypto would be good for a loop-back home partition on these phones Jul 12 21:16:42 dtx: You can't say just because it's locked away in a safe place you don't have to worry about anything else. That would be quite foolish... Jul 12 21:16:45 But that can always be setup later Jul 12 21:16:54 Getting crypto/security right is soo heavy. Jul 12 21:17:13 I still remember this cool department nearby, where I did admin. Jul 12 21:17:35 Crypto can't meaningfully be done without hardware security. Jul 12 21:17:41 They moved "my" linux boxes into their own DMZ (subnet), befause "ssh into the private high security network" was not acceptable. Jul 12 21:17:47 Guess what they do now? Jul 12 21:17:56 telnet? Jul 12 21:18:05 Right... vpn for people. Everybody gets the same user/password. Jul 12 21:18:15 hahaha Jul 12 21:18:22 * SpeedEvil gets out his stabbing hammer. Jul 12 21:18:31 jeez Jul 12 21:18:39 I don't setup VPN on anything I can't lock down Jul 12 21:18:47 Doing it right is hard. And it will pervade everything in the company. Jul 12 21:18:52 And add cost. Jul 12 21:19:02 Lots of cost Jul 12 21:19:13 On the other hand - what's the cost of losing data, or having it stolen, or ... Jul 12 21:19:19 To the point where it might just be better to get a damn good lock and more insurance ;-) Jul 12 21:20:17 Oh right... they use crypted harddisks in the laptops. ;-) Jul 12 21:20:33 Ohh... vpn is of course by definition secure. :-) Jul 12 21:20:47 Elrond: and the CEO's won't give up their Blackberrys ;) Jul 12 21:21:32 Kensan - Heh, the other department has berries, yes. But of course for security they have their own enterprise server. ;o) Jul 12 21:23:10 It's a good thing that Laforge is very knowledgable in this area. He has a background in security. Jul 12 21:23:13 doing vpn right isn't that hard. OpenVPN works quite well. Jul 12 21:23:47 pjz - Yeah. (except I still don't like openssl/x509... but that's another story) Jul 12 21:23:57 pjz - tinc is also quite okay. Jul 12 21:24:11 openvpn runs quite well on openwrt boxes Jul 12 21:24:31 Ahh. :-) Jul 12 21:24:44 Well $they have a cool l33t cisco pix. ;o) Jul 12 21:25:04 enh, you just have tomake the pix port-forward to a real machine :) Jul 12 21:25:51 one company I worked for, I handed out a couple of pre-set-up openwrt boxes that were openvpn clients so people coupld pulg them in in their house and then plug their voip phone in and have an office extension at home :) Jul 12 21:25:52 pjz - Well, anything, that is not on the pix is per default insecure. Only the pix is secure. ;-) Jul 12 21:26:09 pjz that is a good idea Jul 12 21:26:11 Elrond: laughable statement if you've read cisco's security advisories :) Jul 12 21:26:28 pjz - Don't tell that to me :-) Jul 12 21:26:44 Elrond: let's just say you need to make sure your firmware's up to date Jul 12 21:26:45 hm, either the neo nor the openmoko-vkeyboard has cursor-keys - so how is it possible to navigate in a terminal? Jul 12 21:26:51 true Jul 12 21:27:03 pjz - I don't think they updated in the last year. Jul 12 21:27:05 thomasg_gpm: terminals didn't ahve cursor keys for years. I'm confused. Jul 12 21:27:14 vim Jul 12 21:27:20 hjkl Jul 12 21:27:27 thomasg_gpm - There's matchbox-keyboard also. Jul 12 21:27:30 pjz, well, if you want to go 10 chars backward in a terminal, how can you do this? Jul 12 21:27:44 Elrond: sure, but it doesn't matter when they updated, what matters is when your hardware provier got your pix in from cisco, and how long it sat on the shelf :) Jul 12 21:27:52 thomasg_gpm - Put the stylus longer on the "show keyboard"-icon, then select the second "keyboard". Jul 12 21:28:03 thomasg_gpm: depends on your shell. Jul 12 21:28:26 thomasg_gpm: try ^B ten times Jul 12 21:28:32 Elrond, the matchbox-keyboad I know also doesn't have cursor keys Jul 12 21:28:43 thomasg_gpm - Huh... it should... Jul 12 21:28:45 lemme check. Jul 12 21:28:51 thomasg_gpm: or try ESC followed by 'h' ten times Jul 12 21:28:55 http://matchbox-project.org/media/matchbox-keyboard.png Jul 12 21:29:53 thomasg_gpm - The things at the bottom right are cursor keys. Jul 12 21:30:11 thomasg_gpm: emacs bindings are: ^B/^F for left and right ('back and forward') and ^P/^N for up and down ('previous and next') Jul 12 21:30:18 pjz, you don't understand it seems. I mean, if you write in a terminal: 'echo "foo fou foo foo"' and you want to correct the "u" without writing the whole thing new - how can you do that? Jul 12 21:30:35 thomasg_gpm: press ^B a few times. Jul 12 21:30:43 thomasg_gpm - He understands. Most shells support Ctrl-B for cursor left. Jul 12 21:30:48 Elrond, no, this are < > signs Jul 12 21:30:49 bt keyboard Jul 12 21:31:11 pjz, ah, ok, that works Jul 12 21:31:23 thanks :) Jul 12 21:31:31 Hmm. Jul 12 21:31:34 thomasg_gpm - You sure? My neos matchbox-keyboard is too tiny for me to be able to use it. :-| Jul 12 21:31:45 hehe :) Jul 12 21:31:50 galexande stil there ยป Jul 12 21:31:50 ? Jul 12 21:31:52 thomasg_gpm: you're welcome :) most shells use emacs keybindings, so they're useful to know Jul 12 21:31:55 someone say emacs? Jul 12 21:31:57 * anrp readies the torch Jul 12 21:32:30 anrp: yeah, emacs is a nice operating system :) Jul 12 21:32:35 vt bindings surely Jul 12 21:32:36 pjz, I wish terminals would be mouse(stylus)-ready Jul 12 21:33:06 thomasg_gpm - xterm has mouse stuff. w3m uses it for example. Jul 12 21:33:25 so who is gonna implement graffitti writing using the accelerometers on this thing? Jul 12 21:33:32 Elrond, but you cant navigate using the mouse in a termina, can you? Jul 12 21:33:43 thomasg_gpm - in w3m: Yes. Jul 12 21:33:47 thomasg_gpm: nah, I hate the dang things. Keep your hands on the keyboard. Jul 12 21:34:01 pjz, well, unfortunately the neo has no keyboard :) Jul 12 21:34:06 Elrond, w3m is ncurses? Jul 12 21:34:10 ScaredyCat: nah, they're emacs bindings; they can be changed to other things in other shells Jul 12 21:34:28 thomasg_gpm: mine does :) I picked up a bt keyboard to use with it :) Jul 12 21:34:35 ^^ Jul 12 21:34:48 thomasg_gpm - Yes. Jul 12 21:34:52 thomasg_gpm: actually right now I'm using it with my Nokia 6620 Jul 12 21:34:57 the neo is big enough, a additional external keyboard isn't usable for me :) Jul 12 21:35:19 it's a foldout one, so yeah, have to sit at a table or something to use it really Jul 12 21:35:26 plz: what BT keyboard do you have? Jul 12 21:35:27 I've some nokias, including a 7710 touchscreen-only. but it has a navigation (cursor) key Jul 12 21:36:15 I wish the neo would have one, too Jul 12 21:36:25 you use the nokia as a keyboard? Jul 12 21:36:31 now that's a weak role Jul 12 21:36:34 thomasg_gpm - cursors on the neo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#D-Pad_and_Buttons ;o)) Jul 12 21:36:48 Jason1: the iGo Stowaway Jul 12 21:36:55 neo uses other phones as accessories Jul 12 21:36:57 ;/ Jul 12 21:37:13 well, I do not want the neo as gameboy -.- but no-multitouch and no keys isn't really the optimum Jul 12 21:37:21 anrp - hehe... pavel already uses his zaurus as BT keyboard. ;o) Jul 12 21:37:37 Zaurus has BT? Jul 12 21:37:41 well the zaurus has a good keyboard Jul 12 21:37:51 5600 ok, c* much nicer Jul 12 21:37:57 cry Jul 12 21:38:01 I miss my zaurus Jul 12 21:38:05 Jason1: the ultraslim one Jul 12 21:38:08 miss? you can still get em D: Jul 12 21:38:17 I got 4 c1000's never noticed if they had bluetooth Jul 12 21:38:20 but they're too expensive, now that I just put down 300 dollars on a phone Jul 12 21:38:22 they don't Jul 12 21:38:27 they have a cf slot though Jul 12 21:38:28 I only had one of the crappy american 5500s Jul 12 21:38:29 yeah Jul 12 21:38:33 and USB Host Jul 12 21:38:34 powered Jul 12 21:38:52 which was the only reason I got it Jul 12 21:38:54 although pebble keyboard > touchscreen Jul 12 21:39:02 yeah Jul 12 21:39:19 Hmm, I don't know, how pavel uses BT on it. Jul 12 21:39:25 I could play doom on c1000 Jul 12 21:39:32 very nice Jul 12 21:39:37 pjz: wow they are proud of those things! Jul 12 21:39:55 http://www.igo.com/product.asp?sku=2524884 Jul 12 21:39:59 elrond - cf bluetooth Jul 12 21:40:57 Hmmm. How hard would it be to turn the neo into a usb-"headset"? Jul 12 21:41:08 Trivial AIUI. Jul 12 21:41:10 SMOP. Jul 12 21:41:48 SpeedEvil - usb, not bt. ;-) Jul 12 21:42:16 you would have to have a usb audio gadget driver that hooks into the sound driver Jul 12 21:42:19 Oh - right. Jul 12 21:42:36 no reason that couldn't be done but it might need a user space daemon to get to the audio Jul 12 21:42:36 Yeah - I don't think that's been done. Jul 12 21:43:12 why the hell openmoko needs psyco? Jul 12 21:43:25 huh? pysco = x86 only Jul 12 21:43:28 psyco Jul 12 21:43:33 yeah <- amd64 Jul 12 21:43:45 thomasg_gpm - It doesn't need it. Jul 12 21:43:47 won't build here :( Jul 12 21:43:52 Elrond, ah, k Jul 12 21:44:08 would be nice to have zippy python on the openmoko but i think psyco's considered a dead end anyhow Jul 12 21:44:26 happycube - I have normal python on my neo. :-) Jul 12 21:44:27 pypy+jit (when mature) on arm... that'd be the ticket Jul 12 21:44:32 :) Jul 12 21:45:06 Quite nice :-) Jul 12 21:47:43 Elrond, pygtk+ ? Jul 12 21:49:15 codyl|sleep - Yes, pygtk. Jul 12 21:53:16 Elrong, nice..maybe my apps will work Jul 12 21:53:34 Elrond, openmokoui isnt complete enough to wrap yet.. Jul 12 21:53:45 how are the startup times ? Jul 12 21:54:30 You mean python startup times? Jul 12 21:54:47 reasonable. I don't really notice them in the console noise of my python apps. Jul 12 21:54:56 Not to mention I often run them via "ssh -X". Jul 12 21:56:54 l8r Jul 12 22:10:51 Elrond: what kind of BT-Adapter does Pavel use with his Zaurus? Jul 12 22:20:14 Kensan - I have no idea. Jul 12 22:22:19 ha, I try to look at that DUtch website mentioned in community ML... Jul 12 22:22:23 "The bandwidth limit for this site has been exceeded." Jul 12 22:22:39 hi Jul 12 22:22:53 nm Jul 12 22:23:16 howdy Jul 12 22:27:08 * CM yawns a little Jul 12 22:27:33 ;-) Jul 12 22:39:52 Question: most of the time when I build and run QEMU, there's a blank white rectangle next to the Main Menu dropdown and if I click there I get the on-screen keyboard. Sometimes though, that rectangle isn't there and the keyboard appears to be inaccessible. Any idea why this happens? How do I invoke the keyboard when it does? Jul 12 22:43:19 jseghers: Don't know what's up with that. I've always had that white square there. Jul 12 22:43:50 I've seen that happen too a few times Jul 12 22:43:58 I just shut down and start up again Jul 12 22:44:16 hum, im going to be in the plane for quite a while on sunday Jul 12 22:44:33 any way to get a cache from openmoko's mediawiki so I can do some reading ? Jul 12 22:45:26 Yes. Jul 12 22:45:28 Got wget? Jul 12 22:45:55 if you do use wget, please throttle it to be nice ;-) Jul 12 22:46:16 And start it from special:all-pages Jul 12 22:46:21 with a limit of 1 Jul 12 22:46:30 You do not want to follow all the edit links Jul 12 22:46:44 The whole wiki is still quite small. Jul 12 22:46:58 yeah that's what i thought Jul 12 22:47:05 and how do I not kill the server ? :P Jul 12 22:47:14 Just set it to 1K/second Jul 12 22:47:24 gcb77: I'd seen rebooting work too... that's what I initially did... it fooled me--failed twice in a row... third time it's there. Jul 12 22:47:50 ok, im gonna have to read wget man's :) Jul 12 22:48:22 wget -k --limit-rate=1k -r -l 1 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:AllPages Jul 12 22:48:25 or something Jul 12 22:48:44 -k rewrites links on saving Jul 12 22:48:52 So they work locally Jul 12 22:49:37 Also if you've not read the mailing lists, getting them may be reasonable. Jul 12 22:49:58 SpeedEvil: the flight is not that long :p Jul 12 22:50:33 Take a ship, and the source code :) Jul 12 22:50:47 haha Jul 12 22:55:50 SpeedEvil: i'm gonna grab everything with the level 1, because i start on allpages right ? Jul 12 22:55:58 yes. Jul 12 22:56:15 Go to level 2, and you run into nasty issues like it following all the histories. Jul 12 22:57:53 yeah ok Jul 12 22:57:55 hum, problem Jul 12 22:58:48 Cannot write to `wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Allpages' (Invalid argument). Jul 12 22:59:04 wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Allpages: No such file or directory Jul 12 22:59:04 Converting wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Allpages... nothing to do. Jul 12 22:59:17 That was a guess Jul 12 22:59:21 I forget the exact URL Jul 12 22:59:26 that's it Jul 12 22:59:30 i went and checked :( Jul 12 23:00:41 Seems to work for me. Jul 12 23:00:53 wget --limit-rate=1k -k -r -l 1 wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Allpages Jul 12 23:02:05 nope, same error :( Jul 12 23:03:10 maybe it's permissions problems locally Jul 12 23:04:29 hum yeah, it works now Jul 12 23:04:34 thanks :) Jul 12 23:04:38 hey Jul 12 23:04:42 Oh - read it. It's the error page Jul 12 23:04:44 ive got a important question Jul 12 23:04:52 does the neo works without SIM? Jul 12 23:05:29 Oh - no it's not, /me typoed Jul 12 23:05:33 NeoStrider: yes Jul 12 23:05:37 NeoStrider: Yeah, gsm modem is just a small part Jul 12 23:05:44 the modem pretty much won't though. Jul 12 23:05:53 In some countries you may be able to make emergency calls. Jul 12 23:05:56 GREAT! Jul 12 23:06:00 NeoStrider: it'll pretty much be a PDA. Jul 12 23:06:23 thats exactly what I want! Jul 12 23:06:33 a gorgeous PDA, much like Neo Jul 12 23:06:39 and with a TRUE OS Jul 12 23:06:49 Hi eveyone. Jul 12 23:06:50 not that crap you get in usually Jul 12 23:06:58 hi mcclade Jul 12 23:07:29 All the docs in the Wiki mention that the GPS stuff currently doesn't work in qemu. Is that still the case or does someone have a solution in the works? Jul 12 23:08:38 if you don't have an external GPS device, it doesn't work Jul 12 23:09:47 be back later Jul 12 23:09:50 bye fellows Jul 12 23:09:53 * SpeedEvil prefers girls that can work and get me money. Jul 12 23:09:54 oops Jul 12 23:10:04 (not in that sense) Jul 12 23:10:13 hah Jul 12 23:10:40 Hmm, I've got a bluetooth GPS reciever but hooking that up is probably going to be a pain in the ass. I might look into writing some sort of dummy GPS device for qemu. Jul 12 23:10:42 Thanks. Jul 12 23:11:09 No need. Jul 12 23:11:20 GPSd does fake if you want that. Jul 12 23:11:45 Ahh, that sounds like exactly what I need. Jul 12 23:12:21 Or just (while true echo \$GPGGA,`date "%....`... Jul 12 23:14:42 SpeedEvil: hum, the links stayed as "/wiki/Page" Jul 12 23:14:58 You should be able to browse if you start at the main-page link Jul 12 23:15:01 and firefox thinks that means filesystem/wiki/Page Jul 12 23:15:39 that's what I did Jul 12 23:15:53 IIRC it worked last time I did it. Jul 12 23:16:39 Hmm, can't one dump out relevant parts of the wiki? I though, wikipedia did that weekly? Jul 12 23:16:49 Im getting an errorwhen trying to build QEMU w/ MokoMakeFile: Jul 12 23:16:49 "Splash needs 'pngtopnm' and 'pppmtorgb3' - make sure that they're in the $PATH. Cant find those packages in the Ubuntu repos, so I guess I need to seek them out and build them from source, correct? Jul 12 23:17:02 Elrond: *weekly*? Jul 12 23:17:02 Prolly Jul 12 23:17:06 netpbm Jul 12 23:17:12 Elrond: it takes *ages* to compress the dumps... Jul 12 23:17:27 Elrond: it takes so long, they even made a special parallel bzip2 to speed things up Jul 12 23:17:46 SpeedEvil: hum all the browsers do the same thing Jul 12 23:17:48 cesarb - Heh, I'm just oudated. ;o) Jul 12 23:18:02 is there a way to make wget replace the /wiki with a ./wiki ? Jul 12 23:18:03 Elrond: answering the question, you need shell access to create the dump, AFAIK Jul 12 23:18:04 Skwid_: odd - it seemed to wrok for me last time. Jul 12 23:19:02 cesarb - Well, some admin could create the dumps on a weekly basis (openmoko wiki should be doable on a weekly basis). Jul 12 23:20:00 Jason1: netpbm Jul 12 23:20:10 please add that to the wiki page if it's not there alread Jul 12 23:20:11 y Jul 12 23:20:20 speedEveil/rwhitby: that did it. Jul 12 23:20:26 Ill updatethe Wiki Jul 12 23:20:30 thx Jul 12 23:22:00 Elrond: it should be doable even in a daily basis... unlike the huge moster which is enwiki Jul 12 23:24:08 whois Jul 12 23:24:26 oh Jul 12 23:24:28 cesarb - weekly would fully be sufficient. Jul 12 23:24:33 heya! Jul 12 23:24:56 getting some probs while making qemu. Jul 12 23:25:02 perhaps someone can help? Jul 12 23:25:03 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ ) Jul 12 23:25:07 Wiki is small. Jul 12 23:26:04 aloril - Can you add "software-bla" as a command, giving SpeedEvil's standard software-answer? Jul 12 23:26:48 i've compiled complete image with gcc 4.1.2, then i switched to 3.4.6-r2 (gentoo versioning) and tried "make qemu" Jul 12 23:26:57 result: mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: version `CXXABI_1.3.1' not found (required by mtn) Jul 12 23:27:11 maybe with "it support.*?$" Jul 12 23:28:42 well, i can't seem to get the links working Jul 12 23:30:20 for something like coreutils breaking, where should the patch be placed for it to build properly? Jul 12 23:33:21 ajmitch - bugzilla.openmoko.org can't be too wrong. Jul 12 23:33:35 waldmeister: I'd guess maybe a useflag issue? Jul 12 23:33:36 Anyway, good night people. Jul 12 23:33:49 Night Jul 12 23:34:09 :) Jul 12 23:34:48 Elrond: right, but for testing & building? :) Jul 12 23:36:57 mcclade : in gcc or libstdc++ Jul 12 23:38:32 mcclade : i linked the 4.1.2 libstdc++ to 3.4.6 libstc++ (libstdc++ from gcc 3.4.6 only includes v1.3 NOT 1.3.1)..strange Jul 12 23:38:43 it starts compiling... Jul 12 23:38:48 *confused* Jul 12 23:39:15 I'm just reading up on it now. I'm guessing you did gcc-config to select gcc-3.4.6-r2? Did you do a source /etc/profile afterwards? Jul 12 23:39:47 yap Jul 12 23:40:40 and i did a "strings /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6 | grep CXXABI" Jul 12 23:40:57 I'm reading a few posts on the Gentoo forums where people had similar errors, always to do with conflicts between gcc versions. Jul 12 23:41:02 it returned CXXABI_1.3 Jul 12 23:41:23 bit the file from gcc4 returned CXXABI_1.3 AND CXXABI_1.3.1 Jul 12 23:41:42 so i moved the old gcc3-file and linked to the new... Jul 12 23:41:44 waldmeister: that's because that library is versioned Jul 12 23:41:45 uhoh! Jul 12 23:41:57 starting...booting..WHOA Jul 12 23:41:59 waldmeister: you compiled something with a newer one, which used symbols which didn't exist in the older one Jul 12 23:42:01 hehe..works Jul 12 23:42:38 waldmeister: using a newer one for running will not cause problems, using it for compiling might cause problems Jul 12 23:42:47 yeah. but compiling everything with gcc3?! Jul 12 23:43:36 however: linking is a workaround. where should i place it? openmoko-wiki? gentoo wiki? Jul 12 23:43:47 waldmeister: you said you compiled the image with gcc4... it probably compiled mtn (which is not the image, but a tool used while building it) with gcc4 Jul 12 23:44:29 waldmeister: the correct solution would be to clean your build and recompile with the correct gcc/libstdc++ (you can also clean the individual package which is causing you trouble) Jul 12 23:45:44 waldmeister: linking the library of one gcc with the other might cause strange problems in the future, potentially in unrelated situations... it's bad advice, so don't add it to the wiki Jul 12 23:45:48 eh...if correct version means gcc3 (qemu NEEDS it) ..no ;) Jul 12 23:46:02 okay Jul 12 23:46:14 using gcc3 with qemu only :D Jul 12 23:46:20 but: s3c_adc_write: Bad register 0x8 Jul 12 23:46:31 while running openmoko in qemu :( Jul 12 23:46:38 waldmeister: I compiled everyting with gcc4 here, qemu automatically uses gcc3 if it's installed, so the easier way is to have both versions of gcc in your machine and let the qemu build system pick the correct one Jul 12 23:46:54 waldmeister: ignore that bad register message, it's harmless afaik Jul 12 23:47:29 Does anyone know if the first batch is already sold out? Jul 12 23:47:32 what do youm mean "both in the system"? is used gcc-config to change Jul 12 23:48:11 cesarb: not for sure, but looking at the RT numbers, it as to be very, very close. Jul 12 23:48:36 waldmeister: you shouldn't need to use gcc-config, as qemu's build automatically tries to use "gcc-3.3" or "gcc-3.4" (and some other variants) if available Jul 12 23:49:19 cesarb: I don't think it's quite that simple on Gentoo, it seems to handle gcc versions in its own "special" way. (; Didn't work for me anyway. Jul 12 23:49:47 mcclade: hm Jul 12 23:50:17 * cesarb hasn't used gentoo in some time... takes too much time compiling stuff Jul 12 23:51:29 * cesarb chose Kubuntu because it "just works" and I wouldn't have to do anything at all before using my machine... of course, it meant I only needed to write a whole driver for the counterfeit NIC I had bought Jul 12 23:51:59 compiling on Athlon XP 2000+ (32bit) plus 2x2000MhZ on Macbook is funny :P Jul 12 23:52:17 * waldmeister distccs himself to bed Jul 12 23:57:06 cesarb - weird... what nic is that? Jul 12 23:57:38 happycube: the one I bought was a counterfeit Encore Jul 12 23:57:49 how do you counterfeit a NIC?! Jul 12 23:57:53 happycube: but I later also found it with other brands Jul 12 23:58:26 ferric: simple, get a Silan SC92031 chip, and paint a "Realtek 8139D" text on top of it (complete with the ugly Realtek crab icon) Jul 13 00:01:25 ferric: http://www.brazilfw.com.br/images/rtl8139d/falseta.jpg is a picture of one of these Jul 13 00:02:22 (source: http://www.brazilfw.com.br/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30) Jul 13 00:02:27 what is that? a wifi board? debug board? Jul 13 00:02:27 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 13 00:06:22 alorill the atheros AR6 chip has open drivers..? Jul 13 00:06:57 ExxonValdeez: counterfeit realtek NIC Jul 13 00:07:12 ExxonValdeez: in fact a SC92031 chip Jul 13 00:08:21 counterfeit? Jul 13 00:08:36 i would doubt the atheros has open drivers Jul 13 00:08:47 their desktop chips run with madwifi drivers Jul 13 00:08:52 ExxonValdeez: it says it's a Realtek NIC, but it isn't Jul 13 00:08:59 ah, i see Jul 13 00:09:00 ExxonValdeez: ok just checking..:) Jul 13 00:10:16 agh, i screwed up x messing around with vmware, brb Jul 13 00:16:28 My last fake hardware was a fake SCSI card. Jul 13 00:16:51 16 bit ISA - ... Jul 13 00:17:37 night all Jul 13 00:20:09 What's Harald Welte's relationship with the OpenMoko project? Jul 13 00:20:15 I presume he works for FIC in some fashion Jul 13 00:21:40 Search for Core Team in wiki Jul 13 00:21:40 Indeed. Jul 13 00:23:06 Ah. That rather cryptic blog post doesn't bode well, then Jul 13 00:24:49 I have a phone, and it's plugged into my USB port, but it's running an old version of its software. What's the right way to upgrade it? Jul 13 00:25:36 paul, dare i say: Jul 13 00:25:37 very carefully Jul 13 00:25:57 galexande, Well, I flashed the debug board two days ago because I thought that was necessary. Jul 13 00:26:07 But all the phone needed was some time to charge! Jul 13 00:28:02 it would be nice if someone else did a blog post to bump the laf0orge entry off the top spot. Jul 13 00:29:39 something about how many phones are left and how many more are being manufactured and current shipping status of existing phones, for instance. Jul 13 00:31:25 Looks like I have to use MokoMakefile or equivalent to build a flash image. Jul 13 00:34:42 paulproteus: you can also just download one Jul 13 00:35:45 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/latest/ Jul 13 00:35:47 rwhitby, Do you mean the "really basic" referred-to at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Userspace_root_image ? Jul 13 00:35:52 Ooh, thanks rwhitby! Jul 13 00:36:13 something to play with while you're waiting for the build to complete ... Jul 13 00:36:30 rwhitby, Thanks for the help. I'm getting into the game a little late. Jul 13 00:37:45 rwhitby, I guess I should put the files on a micro SD and then enter the commands listed (I'll also have to figure out how to get a terminal). Jul 13 00:37:55 I'm reading http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot#Writing_rootfs_to_NAND right now. Jul 13 00:38:09 paulproteus: easiest is to use dfu Jul 13 00:38:28 I don't know what dfu is. Should I just read all of the U-boot page first and then ask questions? Jul 13 00:38:29 paulproteus: better late than never :-) welcome aboard. Jul 13 00:38:48 dfu-util is the utility which flashes the neo via the usb port. Jul 13 00:39:22 you hold in the aux button while turning on the phone, which drops you into the u-boot menu. Jul 13 00:39:37 then use dfu-util to load the kernel and rootfs via usb Jul 13 00:39:49 I only see one button, the one next to the USB port. Jul 13 00:40:01 Is that aux, or is there somewhere else I should look? Jul 13 00:40:20 top left - looks like an IR port Jul 13 00:40:33 Yeah, I thought it was one. Okay! Jul 13 00:40:51 Cool, I'll do that right now. Jul 13 00:42:09 Now the screen is all white. Jul 13 00:43:35 [200737.181483] usb0: unregister 'cdc_ether' usb-0000:00:1d.2-1, CDC Ethernet Device Jul 13 00:43:39 Wait, that's a disconnect. Jul 13 00:43:49 I guess I should just wait a minute and see what happens. Jul 13 00:44:36 phone power off, hold in aux, phone power on, release aux when u-boot menu appears. Jul 13 00:45:59 is it possible to overwrite u-boot making the phone unflashable without some sort of hardware intervension? Jul 13 00:46:35 Yes. Jul 13 00:46:56 scary Jul 13 00:46:58 The new flashing tools - as I understand it - make it harder. Jul 13 00:47:13 And you can write direct to the u-boot partition. Jul 13 00:47:17 (don't do that) Jul 13 00:49:34 So, according to the SMedia site, the 3362 has some cool features, are these planned to be implemented somehow in X or similar? Jul 13 00:49:47 is that the graphics chip? Jul 13 00:49:56 for gta02 Jul 13 00:50:04 Yeah Jul 13 00:50:21 Supports mpeg4 decoding, hardware rotating, 3d/2d acceleration Jul 13 00:50:23 can't imagine they would bother to go through the expense, delay in design, and waste the power if not Jul 13 00:50:57 Oh well, i suppose it will get implemented sometime Jul 13 00:51:05 The beauty of open source :) Jul 13 00:51:37 rwhitby, I can't get it to not do the real boot and go into X.... Jul 13 00:51:41 "hardware rotating"? Jul 13 00:52:01 As in hardware accelerated screen rotation Jul 13 00:52:12 oh, I see Jul 13 00:52:16 http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm Jul 13 00:53:25 yeah Jul 13 00:53:28 cb22: in theory. Jul 13 00:53:45 depends on the amount of documentation Jul 13 00:53:45 As they are NDAs involved, FIC only can write the driver. Jul 13 00:53:48 sucks when you get great accleration in one aspect in normal mode and zero when rotated Jul 13 00:54:23 And FIC has limited coders, so it's very likely that very little of the possible funcitonality may get implemented - at least soon. Jul 13 00:54:28 if your tech specs aren't released freely, you're screwed Jul 13 00:54:42 NV has been going for ages and still barely works on 2d Jul 13 00:54:55 paulproteus: do you have a *really* old u-boot build on that device? Jul 13 00:55:13 rwhitby, This is 2007-04-20 unmodified, that's about all I know... Jul 13 00:56:11 paulproteus: you might need to devirginate with a more recent u-boot to get the menu Jul 13 00:57:38 rwhitby, Recommendation on how to do that? I do have a debug board appropriately flashed if necessary. Jul 13 00:58:06 paulproteus: there is a wiki page on that. Jul 13 00:58:21 but you might be better off just going down the sd card route anyway Jul 13 00:58:33 (although I've never tried that myself) Jul 13 00:59:42 FWIW the Terminal isn't loading. Jul 13 01:03:27 rwhitby, If I can't get a terminal or u-boot's interface through the AUX port, any suggestions...? Jul 13 01:03:57 I'm going to read the Phase0 Quick Start carefully and follow it (from wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader) Jul 13 01:04:00 AUX port? Jul 13 01:04:11 Sorry, AUX button. Jul 13 01:04:24 Never mind my question; I'm going to re-try the AUX button instructions to the letter. Jul 13 01:05:31 can the GSM module communicate with anything other than the phone network (over the air) and the OS (through the UART)? Jul 13 01:06:23 No Jul 13 01:06:32 You mean phone-phone? Jul 13 01:06:48 no, i'm looking at the diagram on this page: Jul 13 01:06:54 https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko Jul 13 01:07:21 it shows a connection between the audio codec(?) and the gsm, i'm wondering if i'm reading it correctly Jul 13 01:07:33 The audio goes out seperately. Jul 13 01:07:39 as audio in/out analog Jul 13 01:07:42 to the codec Jul 13 01:08:16 i don't think i get it Jul 13 01:08:48 oh, wait, is that WM9784 a part of the GSM module? Jul 13 01:08:59 quinton nope Jul 13 01:09:42 It's the audio codec Jul 13 01:09:48 think of it as a soundcard Jul 13 01:09:55 which it basically is. Jul 13 01:10:07 the GSM 'speaker' and 'mic' Jul 13 01:10:10 are connected to it Jul 13 01:10:16 and the real speaker and mic seperately. Jul 13 01:10:33 oh, right. thanks SpeedEvil! Jul 13 01:10:38 a soundcard with a specialised mixer for phones and similar multimedia stuff... means it has multiple in and outs and a relatively complex routing is possible Jul 13 01:10:45 Yeah. Jul 13 01:11:34 are speaker and mic two seperate physical jacks? Jul 13 01:11:44 or are they somehow combined Jul 13 01:12:22 combined in the headset jack. Jul 13 01:13:00 orzo there is a internal mic, internal headphones, a jacket with mic-ext, headphones-stereo-ext and 2 internal speakers (stereo). additionally the codec is connected to bluetooth Jul 13 01:13:04 The input and output from the GSM module, and the mic and speaker are all seperately wired to the 'soundcard' Jul 13 01:13:55 can i plug speakers or headphones only into the headset jack and everything work correctly? Jul 13 01:14:02 yes. Jul 13 01:14:11 You will need an adaptor if it's 3.5mm Jul 13 01:14:12 how about only a mic? Jul 13 01:14:17 mono mic Jul 13 01:14:29 Otherwise you'd need a USB soundcard. Jul 13 01:15:39 does the display have levels of brightness? Jul 13 01:15:48 adjustable Jul 13 01:16:59 orzo yeah. its connected to a PWM port and thus can be dimmed in more steps than i can differenciate with my eyes Jul 13 01:17:17 rwhitby, Ooh ooh, I got the AUX thing right this time! (-: Jul 13 01:17:21 so, when you are talking, the data isn't going over the UART? Jul 13 01:17:25 No Jul 13 01:17:31 Over the 'soundcard'. Jul 13 01:17:39 cool, thanks Jul 13 01:17:41 Through the mixers usually. Jul 13 01:17:51 Though it can also be routed through the CPU for special effects. Jul 13 01:18:11 * cb22 thinks of voice call recording Jul 13 01:18:23 That's the least of it, yes. Jul 13 01:18:34 Pitch bending for people that call you with annoyingly high voices. Jul 13 01:18:42 heh Jul 13 01:18:48 Heh, and text to speech Jul 13 01:18:51 Or if you have problem hearing low voices, audio compression Jul 13 01:19:33 So, has anyone gotten their P1 phones yet? Jul 13 01:19:37 voice distortion for when you are asking for randsom Jul 13 01:19:37 No. Jul 13 01:19:52 the P0 people have P1 phones, dont they? Jul 13 01:19:58 Not anyone but the first fevs Jul 13 01:19:59 devs Jul 13 01:20:50 So does it look as if P2 will be released on time? Jul 13 01:20:57 Because i _really_ want one! Jul 13 01:21:20 cb22: ha. thats purely speculative at this point. Jul 13 01:21:28 laf0rge said something about the P2 phones being user-ready hardware wise but not software wise Jul 13 01:21:40 in his blog Jul 13 01:21:54 well that's why there'll be lots of people hacking on P1 phones Jul 13 01:22:10 Yeah, the more people who have the phone, the cooler it will get Jul 13 01:22:11 well aren't P1 phones ready in the same sense? Jul 13 01:22:37 are there hardware problems? Jul 13 01:23:12 morning Jul 13 01:24:39 different hardware, of course Jul 13 01:26:55 Does phase 2 will use the same kernel with phase1? Jul 13 01:27:27 no, phase 2 will run windows mobile Jul 13 01:27:56 I thought it was OS/X Jul 13 01:28:05 orzo: finally. an OS i can get behind. :) Jul 13 01:28:08 To be serious - yes. Jul 13 01:28:22 ... Jul 13 01:28:24 The hardware is identical. Jul 13 01:28:32 almost Jul 13 01:28:32 kiding? Jul 13 01:28:35 Identical? Jul 13 01:28:53 depending on your point of view, yes Jul 13 01:28:56 it's different cpu Jul 13 01:29:00 It's got extra hardware Jul 13 01:29:07 but logically it's pretty much the same Jul 13 01:29:22 think of P4 2000Mhz - P4 2500Mhz Jul 13 01:29:24 littertiger: its a faster model of the same cpu Jul 13 01:30:05 ah, so it will use the same kernel with different configuration. Jul 13 01:30:07 maybe P1 phones will have better battery life than P2 Jul 13 01:30:31 sure, P1 doesn't have wifi things. Jul 13 01:30:36 AFAIK P2 has a bigger battery too Jul 13 01:30:48 But will use more power likely Jul 13 01:31:02 1700mAh vs 1200mAh i think it was Jul 13 01:32:46 can the phone aspect of the neo be shut off while leaving the pda aspect Jul 13 01:32:52 for airline travel Jul 13 01:33:03 yes Jul 13 01:33:13 I saw a "Airplane mode" in the power menu, orzo, just a minute ago. Jul 13 01:35:12 * don-o pictures the phone flying out of the user's hand Jul 13 01:35:23 heh Jul 13 01:35:43 that mode pretty much only works once :) Jul 13 01:35:56 i bet people will build robot bodies for it Jul 13 01:36:22 will mass market net use speciallize software? Jul 13 01:36:58 will mass market ne0 use speciallized software? Jul 13 01:37:38 orzo, that's just brilliant Jul 13 01:38:42 orzo: don't tempt me :) Jul 13 01:42:35 maybe one of those robotic floor washer things Jul 13 01:42:47 to vaccume or mop Jul 13 01:43:01 * ajmitch has to get the source built first Jul 13 01:43:06 heh Jul 13 01:43:50 trying to get a patch to actually apply Jul 13 01:43:54 my phone causes digital interference in digital telivision signals Jul 13 01:44:20 does that mean, it can mess around with that signal on purpose? Jul 13 01:44:33 maybe get tv on the phone or broadcast things to your digital tv Jul 13 01:45:40 hm Jul 13 01:46:04 can teh phone tap into the neighbor's celular conversation? Jul 13 01:47:54 with the limited access to the GSM module, it might be difficult to put it in a 'promiscious' mode Jul 13 01:48:07 i heard about it being done with some other type of phone though Jul 13 01:48:45 teh GSM is more software than hardware though, right? so the hardware wont prevent it Jul 13 01:49:56 does the wifi have promiscious mode? Jul 13 01:50:00 yes Jul 13 01:50:01 i've never had a wifi card that would let me do that Jul 13 01:50:15 the GSM modem is an AT modem Jul 13 01:50:21 i have a all ralink cards Jul 13 01:50:29 or thats teh drivers anyway Jul 13 01:50:37 It would be illegal in many countries to sell a 'hackable' GSM modem. Jul 13 01:51:14 do you know if the closed wifi firmware would have to be a file on the system to be loaded at boot time, like with prism? Jul 13 01:51:33 It's atheros chipset Jul 13 01:51:57 Dunno - possibly. Jul 13 01:52:01 Probably even. Jul 13 01:52:31 heh, i can't wait to start playing with one of these Jul 13 01:52:57 Well - buy one, they are inexpensive. Jul 13 01:53:02 If it's _firmware_, it's on the chip Jul 13 01:53:07 i've ordered one =D Jul 13 01:53:10 If it has to be loaded at boot time, it's software or a driver Jul 13 01:53:21 arachnid: no Jul 13 01:53:36 SpeedEvil: In what sense is it firmware if it has to be loaded by the OS on boot? Jul 13 01:53:39 arachnid: in order to reduce costs, many chips these days load the firmware at boot-time over USB Jul 13 01:53:53 Ooookay, that's wacky. Jul 13 01:53:57 Because storage on the main system is far cheaper than having a seperate storage chip. Jul 13 01:54:19 Is the wifi even on the USB bus? Jul 13 01:54:24 i'd like to mount it on a digital camcorder and record accelerometer data along with the video stream Jul 13 01:54:30 arachnid: not known. Jul 13 01:54:35 orzo: usb1.1 Jul 13 01:54:44 arachnid: probably. Jul 13 01:54:54 orzo, to what end? Jul 13 01:55:03 Given that it's only USB1.1, wouldn't it make more sense if it was on an internal bus instead? Jul 13 01:55:22 In fact, I think it would have to be - the CPU only has one host and one host/device port for USB Jul 13 01:55:24 arachnid: SPI tops out at 25mbits/sec. Jul 13 01:55:30 quinton, experiments in computer vision. Try to recreate a 3d scene from a single video Jul 13 01:56:01 orzo: the accels are _nowhere_ near good enough for that. Jul 13 01:56:13 Look at the Accelerometer_Fundamentals page on the wiki Jul 13 01:56:17 SpeedEvil: That still beats USB 1.1 Jul 13 01:56:28 arachnid: but not by much. And there is other stuff on there. Jul 13 01:56:37 arachnid: the audio, forex. Jul 13 01:56:52 25mbit vs what, 12 for 'hi speed' usb 1.1? Jul 13 01:56:55 That's a fair bit Jul 13 01:56:56 orzo, that's amazingly cool Jul 13 01:57:01 if they arent good enough for that, they probably arent good enough to try to use to try to correct the recording for a shaky hand? Jul 13 01:57:10 No, they aren't. Jul 13 01:57:42 And 48khz 24bit stereo pcm is only going to use ~300kbit Jul 13 01:57:53 Scheduling is not nice. Jul 13 01:58:03 On SPI. Jul 13 01:58:15 It's not all done for you as it is on USB. Jul 13 01:58:32 I still can't see performance for wifi being worse on SPI than USB, somehow Jul 13 01:58:58 IIRC it's not a 'g' chipset anyway. Jul 13 01:59:29 SpeedEvil, im not sure the accelerometers have to be really good. If they aren't, we can maybe add another camera and use two views combined with simple direction hints from the acelerometers Jul 13 01:59:56 The accels do not give direction other than where 'down' is. Jul 13 02:00:43 REad thehttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals Jul 13 02:01:29 arachnid wifi for gta02 will be sdio based. so its actually faster than spi and much less power wasting than usb Jul 13 02:01:43 Fun. Jul 13 02:01:47 What about bluetooth? Jul 13 02:01:51 Does that move off USB? Jul 13 02:02:18 afaik not. Jul 13 02:02:29 Oh well. Jul 13 02:02:57 At least it seems I was wrong about USB and clocking, whihc is nice. Thought it couldn't be used at much less than full speed. Jul 13 02:03:03 Which will help lots. Jul 13 02:03:15 (for BT active life) Jul 13 02:04:53 SpeedEvil the problem with usb and powersaving is not clocking, but that you need to keep it fully active and continue polling devices since there is no irq line. spi/sdio based io devices just sleep and throw irqs when they need attention Jul 13 02:05:00 I know. Jul 13 02:05:14 Being able to drop the clocks down at least helps a bit though. Jul 13 02:05:30 You still need to keep the CPU way too alive for deep powersave. Jul 13 02:05:56 so its not really a problem, but just a minor 'un-niceness' which is enforced by what connections the usable chipset components have to choose for us Jul 13 02:05:58 But it means battery life of at least a substantial fraction of a day with BT on. Jul 13 02:06:59 Indeed - I'm just saying that it would have been nice to be able to suspend. Jul 13 02:07:08 BT on needs much more power for the rf interface so that is and will be a powerwaster when left on. as on every other mobile Jul 13 02:07:14 Wait, so bluetooth is on USB? Jul 13 02:07:20 arachnid: yes. Jul 13 02:07:45 SpeedEvil we can suspend it any time. but then its off and not 'sleeping and waiting for packets' Jul 13 02:08:05 roh: I know - I mean asleep and waking for packets. Jul 13 02:08:08 If I read the docs for the CPU correctly, that means there isn't space for any more usb devices without introducing a hub anyway Jul 13 02:08:11 Which isn't possible. Jul 13 02:08:18 arachnid: hubs can be tiny. Jul 13 02:08:22 arachnid ack Jul 13 02:08:23 it would be cool if the accelermeters could be used to make the phone's screen into a physically movable window into a 3d rendered universe. Jul 13 02:08:29 I'm planning on jamming one into my P1. Jul 13 02:08:46 orzo: you can't do that really - other than just X/Y tilt. Jul 13 02:08:57 orzo sounds like a major project if you want to start that.. but very cool. Jul 13 02:09:10 very cool indeed :) Jul 13 02:09:25 orzo: Much more is _hard_ The noise from current generation of accelerometers is quite bad. Jul 13 02:10:06 (jamming a USB hub in) to attach a dock port on the back. And maybe wifi. Jul 13 02:14:35 * SpeedEvil is currently trying to find a cheap bluetooth solution for another project. Fun. Jul 13 02:17:07 so if openembedded works on freebsd, that does NOT mean openmoko will work on freebsd correct? Jul 13 02:17:17 Has anyone here who ordered a neo received an order confirmation email? Jul 13 02:17:27 no Jul 13 02:17:34 chou: no Jul 13 02:17:43 Do you mean a 'we've charged your card' email? Jul 13 02:17:47 because there is no neo Jul 13 02:17:49 many people have recieved a ticket Jul 13 02:17:51 its an elaborate hoax Jul 13 02:18:02 I got the initial ticket, but nothing since Jul 13 02:18:15 chouse: Same with all of us Jul 13 02:18:47 chouse: Rumor has it, they may start processing orders on Monday Jul 13 02:18:57 it's a conspiracy to keep open source hackers from doing anything productive by inventing a fictitious device for them to work on. Jul 13 02:18:59 Okay, just wondering if it was just me... Jul 13 02:19:14 chouse: Unortunately not :) Jul 13 02:20:20 I got an "order accepted, your number is #19XX" e-mail right after my order Jul 13 02:20:30 If you didn't get one of those, you probably didn't place an order Jul 13 02:20:31 i got it long after my order Jul 13 02:20:51 sagaci2: Yep, got one of those Jul 13 02:21:15 orza: It was supposed to be an automated email, but their system were overwhelmed, and several people reported delayed delivery Jul 13 02:21:21 no wait Jul 13 02:21:28 i didnt get "order accepted" Jul 13 02:21:44 sagaci2: read the last line of your email Jul 13 02:21:46 i did get Autoreply:OpenMoko direct order Jul 13 02:22:16 "You will receive another message as order confirmation after our staff has accepted it." Jul 13 02:22:38 has sagaci2 actually got that other message? Jul 13 02:26:37 has anybody done a touch screen interface to interactive porn? Jul 13 02:26:39 Nobody has reported getting more messages. Jul 13 02:27:04 give the girl on screen an orgasm by touching her just right Jul 13 02:27:34 thats all we need is a bunch of pervs playing with their "virtual pet" on the subway :) Jul 13 02:27:43 heheh Jul 13 02:28:03 wasn't there a japanese game for the DS like that...? Jul 13 02:28:39 There are many games in Japan like that. Jul 13 02:28:43 Japan is a strange place. Jul 13 02:29:02 it seems like 150-250 orders day before? (35XX - 3054) Jul 13 02:29:11 how does the neo1973 plug into your computer? Jul 13 02:29:18 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 13 02:29:19 usb Jul 13 02:29:27 or bluetooth Jul 13 02:29:33 I think they should be over-sold now Jul 13 02:29:33 or in october, wifi Jul 13 02:29:46 so i can run commands using my computer keyboard, through USB, on the neo? Jul 13 02:29:55 yes. Jul 13 02:29:59 nice Jul 13 02:29:59 you can ssh into the phone Jul 13 02:30:01 ssh/... works Jul 13 02:30:14 it's basically a X box, with some limited phone apps on it. Jul 13 02:30:25 how do you ssh through usb? Jul 13 02:30:27 * ajmitch wants working SMS as well :) Jul 13 02:30:30 "X box" microsoft shows its brilliance Jul 13 02:30:32 USBnet Jul 13 02:30:49 Meh Jul 13 02:30:56 i always bought cheap webhosts that don't have ssh, so i'm not that familiar with it Jul 13 02:31:18 matthew: it's not a user-phone at the moment. It's barely a phone. Jul 13 02:31:22 (sogtwarewise) Jul 13 02:31:32 matthew: think of it as a remote terminal session Jul 13 02:31:47 i know what ssh is, just not familiar with how it works Jul 13 02:31:56 are you familiar with linux commands? Jul 13 02:31:57 i will figure it out though Jul 13 02:32:05 very Jul 13 02:32:14 using it right now Jul 13 02:32:47 well ssh brings up a console where you can run bash commands but they are running on the phone Jul 13 02:33:07 yeah, but what is the command to log in? Jul 13 02:33:20 or connect, i should say Jul 13 02:33:20 boring details Jul 13 02:33:24 go read a manual Jul 13 02:33:24 heh Jul 13 02:33:27 heh, important though Jul 13 02:33:33 ssh ipaddress Jul 13 02:33:39 ssh user@hostname Jul 13 02:33:51 but if it's through usb... Jul 13 02:34:08 the usb will emulate an tcp/ip interface Jul 13 02:34:12 in ifconfig Jul 13 02:34:29 ok Jul 13 02:35:10 is there a calendar app in development? linux barely has any good calendar apps itself, unfortunately. Jul 13 02:35:31 it's called at Jul 13 02:35:36 heh Jul 13 02:35:42 man at Jul 13 02:35:57 hahahah Jul 13 02:35:59 heh, i would have said 'cal' =) Jul 13 02:36:16 i use at all the time bro Jul 13 02:36:47 echo Jul 13 02:37:00 echo 'go to work' | at 6:30am Jul 13 02:44:19 new Wiki page? Jul 13 02:44:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Direct.openmoko.com_order_process Jul 13 02:45:08 posted by: HaraldWelte Jul 13 02:47:16 Also this page is new: Jul 13 02:47:17 which virtual terminal does it use? xterm? Jul 13 02:47:17 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Developer_preview Jul 13 02:48:34 i noticed that the screen fits exactly 80 columns of my favourite font =) Jul 13 02:50:49 does it have a virtual terminal? i think i remember reading that it had virtual consoles though Jul 13 02:51:34 i mean, the ones you can switch between using alt-ctrl-f Jul 13 02:51:56 oh Jul 13 02:52:07 screen? Jul 13 02:52:32 how can you ctrl+alt+f1 on a phone though? Jul 13 02:53:25 bluetooth/usb keyboard? i guess you'd need one for the console to be very usable anyway Jul 13 02:53:58 ok Jul 13 02:57:16 well, the keys would be rebindable Jul 13 02:59:00 i wonder how well the 'bb' aalib demo would run on the phase 1s. i remember hearing it they wouldn't be fast enough to do normal video Jul 13 02:59:18 i would assume bb would look and run great, i might bother to find out **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jul 13 02:59:57 2007