**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jul 14 02:59:56 2007 Jul 14 03:03:40 great thing they sent that mail out, this hopefully means less dissatisfied customers and more developers from first batch Jul 14 03:04:21 aloril: which makes me wonder how many have already been sold Jul 14 03:04:59 hehe, that is quite hard to say now .. would be interesting to know how many CANCEL mails are sent Jul 14 03:08:41 or how many YES_I_DO mails and how many don't reply (I wonder if they ask again or are those postponed to batch 2 (SH2) until they answer) Jul 14 03:09:15 faq Jul 14 03:09:15 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 14 03:09:19 aloril: sounds error-prone. Especially with all their system problems (they must be running Windows) Jul 14 03:10:28 aloril: they could always start calling people on the tele. Jul 14 03:10:53 Jason1: won't work well, a lot of people don't speak english Jul 14 03:11:08 cesarb: bi-lingual support? Jul 14 03:11:17 Jason1: or are like me, who can speak english but somehow only other brazilians manage to understand it Jul 14 03:11:36 well even usians have a hard time with english Jul 14 03:11:44 but i chalk that up to the lack of chalk in the education system Jul 14 03:11:58 cesarb: :) Yeah. Well now you got me scared that they didnt receive my YES_I_DO :( Jul 14 03:12:41 Jason1: hmm.. at least my mail was accepted according to logs Jul 14 03:12:56 aloril: I didnt go that far Jul 14 03:13:29 * sagacis Just started a "make openmoko-devel-image" Jul 14 03:13:42 * sagacis hopes it will be complete before the phone arrives Jul 14 03:13:47 anrp: own-lee sum usaeeans haf difficult tiem wi' englihs langageu Jul 14 03:13:54 * aloril hopes they check for spaces in line, but I guess they will check manually anything that can't be processed by script Jul 14 03:13:54 sagacis: That took forever on my dualcore 2ghz Jul 14 03:14:15 by the way, "make openmoko-devel-tools" compiles nothing for me, is that normal? Jul 14 03:14:17 That's basically what I have Jul 14 03:14:20 (trailing space, made sure there arent't one ;-) Jul 14 03:14:20 dual core 3g Jul 14 03:15:07 sagacis: brought back nightmares of my gentoo days, LOL Jul 14 03:15:09 sagacis: a fresh openmoko-devel-image on a athlon 64 2GHz should take less than a day, so don't worry Jul 14 03:15:24 * sagacis should just go to bed Jul 14 03:15:25 sagacis: your box is probably faster than mine ;-) Jul 14 03:15:44 * aloril guesses they hope "YES_I_DO" + "CANCEL" mails are significant % of those orders before web page had same stuff Jul 14 03:15:47 Yeah, probably.... :-/ Jul 14 03:16:36 So, are we going to have compiled images available to avoid the long build time? Jul 14 03:17:05 sagacis: you do already....qemu inages Jul 14 03:17:13 guess, I don't know about cutoff, this just makes sense: anyway, anybody here that ordered before "WARNING: Developers only!" was added to https://direct.openmoko.com/ should check their mail boxes Jul 14 03:17:56 what would be cool would be a precompiled devel environment Jul 14 03:18:20 making it portable across dists is likely somewhat hard Jul 14 03:18:20 complete with the cross tools and the necessary headers for the libraries Jul 14 03:18:29 i recommend sidestepping the issue and shipping a qemu/virtualbox image Jul 14 03:18:39 so you could compile your own tools Jul 14 03:18:55 it would be .. large, though Jul 14 03:19:01 cesarb: someone was talking about doing a livecd... Jul 14 03:19:11 That would be kind of neat Jul 14 03:22:50 Think I can run "make qemu" in one terminal while making devel image in another? Jul 14 03:22:55 or maybe a xen/vmware image Jul 14 03:23:07 boo unfree Jul 14 03:23:08 I'm sure a few openmoko fans would contribute to a torrent Jul 14 03:23:13 not that i mind too much, just saying Jul 14 03:23:14 sagacis: no Jul 14 03:23:21 Didn't think so Jul 14 03:23:26 sagacis because "make qemu" also makes the devel image Jul 14 03:23:37 racy make Jul 14 03:23:38 :o Jul 14 03:23:42 hm, wait, I misremembered Jul 14 03:23:43 unfree? Jul 14 03:23:49 vmware at least Jul 14 03:24:02 xen is a lot to ask of someone who just wants to make an app Jul 14 03:24:09 qemu is much simpler but not that fast Jul 14 03:24:11 true Jul 14 03:24:14 * summatusmentis should familiarize himself with vmware and qemu Jul 14 03:24:16 i think virtualbox is a bit faster, and it has a gpl version Jul 14 03:24:18 sagacis: it doesn't, "make qemu" downloads and runs the official image, so you can run it together with the compilation of the local image without problems Jul 14 03:24:22 but more and more developers have a dom0 around Jul 14 03:24:24 s/vmware/xen/ Jul 14 03:24:40 like say me for instance ;-) Jul 14 03:24:41 * cesarb just checked the mokomakefile Jul 14 03:24:52 That's what I was looking at Jul 14 03:25:03 having a guarenteed to work image is kinda cool, no driver issues. Jul 14 03:25:07 i don't see much advantage in xen for this case Jul 14 03:25:22 oh sorry, the live cd is incopmatible with your cpu, video card, network, etc. Jul 14 03:25:24 anrp: either xen or kvm is faster Jul 14 03:25:44 enough to be worth the effort for xen? Jul 14 03:25:56 kvm is still unstable, although i think linux guest works fine Jul 14 03:26:05 * anrp comments on the unthinkable, though Jul 14 03:26:10 what about all the poor windows devels? Jul 14 03:26:18 their only options are vmware, qemu, and virtualbox Jul 14 03:26:34 xen images can be converted to vmware and back Jul 14 03:26:48 is that really a solution? ;/ Jul 14 03:26:48 and the vmware dom0 is er $0 cost (if not quite free) Jul 14 03:26:57 anrp: most of them will use vmware, and it won't be a problem for them Jul 14 03:27:01 the whole point of this project is Free Jul 14 03:27:04 ;o Jul 14 03:27:05 virtual appliances are becoming more common Jul 14 03:27:12 anrp: HOWEVER, they will have problems with dfu and ocd Jul 14 03:27:20 well it gives windows folks an option Jul 14 03:27:26 anrp: and usb console Jul 14 03:27:44 i know qemu would work Jul 14 03:27:47 for usb Jul 14 03:28:23 it would even work reasonably well since windows requires an un-driver anyway Jul 14 03:28:26 to enable libusb Jul 14 03:28:32 so nothing else would work with it Jul 14 03:29:01 s/work with it/touch it/ Jul 14 03:29:02 anrp meant: so nothing else would touch it Jul 14 03:31:20 hm virtualbox only supports USB in the nonfree edition Jul 14 03:31:24 * anrp scratches it off Jul 14 03:31:44 that leaves.. qemu ~_~ Jul 14 03:33:40 counter_msg (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 14 03:33:40 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 14 03:33:58 no new info, just updated guesses (this weeks seems quite unlikely) Jul 14 03:35:35 thanks for Jason1, otherwise I might have forgotten to update it ;-) Jul 14 03:36:29 counter Jul 14 03:36:30 (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 3 days 20:23:25 (3.850±3.5 days) (1737;246) Jul 14 03:37:43 :) Jul 14 03:40:03 counter Jul 14 03:40:03 (last update 2007-07-14 03:32) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 4 days 20:19:51 (4.847±3.5 days) (1738;246) Jul 14 03:40:14 (was one off ;-) Jul 14 03:40:47 anyway, lower limit should now cover China time Monday too ...;-) Jul 14 03:44:52 counter_msg (last update 2007-07-14 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 14 03:44:52 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-14 03:43) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 14 03:45:25 (just made last option (September or later) from 10% to 5%, I believe they can ship it) Jul 14 03:45:40 within this and next month ;-) Jul 14 03:51:07 * aloril wonders if gizmodo ordered one (Neo1973), at least I hope they do notice they got warning about its status Jul 14 03:52:52 maybe they were too slow and are in SH2 Jul 14 03:52:58 ;-) Jul 14 03:56:22 aloril: sounds like you are talking to yourself alot... Jul 14 03:56:40 its fun Jul 14 03:56:47 LOL Jul 14 03:56:53 guarenteed audience Jul 14 03:57:01 who agrees with what's said Jul 14 03:57:55 sorry to not be in the conversation, but im just reading trying to learn stuff from other peoples questions... Jul 14 03:57:57 sometimes I get some reaction, but looks somewhat quiet now Jul 14 03:58:15 and wikis Jul 14 03:59:46 i was curious, i know the first shipping is for developers, but if i wanted to buy one for kicks, would it be easy to install a more stable release later on in october or later when the actual customer version comes out.. Jul 14 04:00:41 patC: I dont know if I would describe the current prcess as "easy". However, once we get the device, updates will be (hopefully) fast and furious Jul 14 04:01:02 patC: You do know that hte October release will have some better harware, right? Jul 14 04:01:51 patC: you can install new rootfs/kernel every day if you want (and once you have done it once, it should be quite easy to do it again) Jul 14 04:02:32 cool, yea, i know that the october release has wifi, what other upgrades does it have? Jul 14 04:02:37 patC: either prebuild rootfs/kernel images (easiest) or one you build yourself (at least quite time consuming currently) Jul 14 04:02:58 patC: 2 accelerometers Jul 14 04:03:49 and an actual graphics chip Jul 14 04:03:56 none of this linear framebuffer business Jul 14 04:04:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison Jul 14 04:05:01 actually updating is even recommended at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1#Before_you_start Jul 14 04:05:29 * aloril wonders about binary blob and what happens to that when update, will it be available for download (or even part of official images)? Jul 14 04:05:43 (binary blob == GPS binary library) Jul 14 04:05:46 ... Jul 14 04:05:49 it better be Jul 14 04:05:53 the gps is useless otherwise Jul 14 04:05:55 aloril: Do we know when they flashed the devices at hte factory? Jul 14 04:06:32 yeah, it probably is there, but do you need to save it somewhere before update and copy back ..(would be bad if this was only option I think) Jul 14 04:06:40 oh Jul 14 04:06:49 i guess it's not in source control Jul 14 04:06:53 so .. good point Jul 14 04:07:02 cool, cause i was wondering if it would be worth it to wait, or just get one now and update, but sounds like waitings better, thanks Jul 14 04:07:23 Jason1: no, but it sounds like its early one and you want to update it quite soon (could be month old once you actually receive it?) Jul 14 04:07:39 though I guess they could reflash it before shipping Jul 14 04:07:41 has there really been heavy devel in the last month? (curious) Jul 14 04:08:02 * aloril doesn't know, just that SH1 page seems to recommend to start with flashing it Jul 14 04:08:08 aloril: maybe thats what they are doing this week ??? Jul 14 04:08:24 no, this week they're letting the governments do their thing Jul 14 04:08:30 and slow down the process Jul 14 04:08:34 i.e. shipping Jul 14 04:08:48 anrp: I suspect those things are already sitting in CA Jul 14 04:09:04 which I think means binary blob should be available from download (guess and IMHO: otherwise many will accidentally wipe it Jul 14 04:09:10 depends on if the US is trying to antagonize china right now or not Jul 14 04:09:15 anyway, I will backup its content before updating Jul 14 04:09:30 i had an equipment shipment from asia get held up in customs for over half a month because the US was trying to make a point Jul 14 04:09:35 I think that Harold may have been frustrated that they were going to ship a compltely non-functional device, so now they are re-flashing them.... Jul 14 04:09:36 Jason1: no, I think they are just waiting for Chinese (USA too?) custom Jul 14 04:10:12 maybe thats the reasons for the warnings? Jul 14 04:10:19 if you can't flash it it's not ready for you.. Jul 14 04:10:23 just a theory. Jul 14 04:10:33 well, warning is needed even with most recent image ;-) Jul 14 04:10:41 anrp: exactly... Jul 14 04:11:10 * AntonTakk would like to point out that the neo is a phone, not pet food, not tooth paste, and not condiments, if you kill your self with it, it's your own fault, now let them through customs Jul 14 04:11:24 It doesnt really matter. I think they have done a pretty good job, now, of making it clear that the phone may not be very functional. Jul 14 04:11:31 high technology is one of those things as well Jul 14 04:12:08 yeah, that honestly must suck for them, "hey everyone, in case you didn't figure it out yet, what we're selling DOES NOT WORK. please keep this in mind" Jul 14 04:13:03 yeah, latest mail and direct.openmoko.com change which link to Developer_preview is quite good warning Jul 14 04:13:55 and also that they require certain code for verification kind of checks for "I'm too stupid to even reply correctly" ;-) Jul 14 04:14:25 is there any word on being able to access voip services? Jul 14 04:14:38 without a wireless net connection that's kind of hard Jul 14 04:14:41 it is of course possible Jul 14 04:14:57 probably want GTA02 for that Jul 14 04:15:02 gprs latency is far too unreliable for voip Jul 14 04:15:15 csd .. might, but that's a big if (and quality will suck) Jul 14 04:15:19 they could have hidden a secret code somewhere in the dev. environment that you have to punch in before ordering Jul 14 04:15:21 bluetooth should work, but its a bit limiting ;-) Jul 14 04:15:23 bluetooth would work but honestly why do that? Jul 14 04:15:37 cibomahto: hehe Jul 14 04:15:47 if you were really enterprising you'd write a modulator that used the screen to transmit data to a webcam Jul 14 04:16:10 anyway, if somebody makes lame review we can now flame them: "Didn't you read warnings?" Jul 14 04:16:24 anrp: no way - morse code Jul 14 04:16:27 ;-) Jul 14 04:16:32 what about the ones that get sold on ebay? D: Jul 14 04:16:39 from the disenfranchised devs Jul 14 04:16:41 it's ebay Jul 14 04:16:48 it's all crap anyways Jul 14 04:16:57 sweet, cheap phones! Jul 14 04:16:58 you could use the vibrator motor to output data Jul 14 04:17:03 that would be ... Jul 14 04:17:28 cibomahto: maybe i should have waited to order mine ;) Jul 14 04:17:29 anrp: ah, that isn't anymore really FIC/OpenMoko responsibility, seller is responsible for warnings Jul 14 04:17:43 doesn't mean they aren't going to come here damn quick and whine Jul 14 04:17:47 So, I need to go ahead and get Asterisk ported over, so I can carry a PBX in my pocket.. Jul 14 04:17:48 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] [[Wish_List]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] Jul 14 04:18:02 besides, at say GTA01B_04 at December with current firmware hopefully doesn't need any warnings Jul 14 04:19:29 hardware should be OK, its just software state that needs warning currently, next year hopefully no need for that Jul 14 04:19:39 here's hoping D: Jul 14 04:20:02 How large is the full dev env, out of curiosity? Jul 14 04:20:29 up to 10gb Jul 14 04:20:30 december? i thought it was supposed to be on track got release in October? Jul 14 04:20:37 up to? Jul 14 04:20:42 october hw rel + time to integrate new bits Jul 14 04:20:45 well it varies Jul 14 04:20:47 a lot... Jul 14 04:20:54 AntonTakk: no one really knows... Jul 14 04:21:01 oh Jul 14 04:21:06 10gb built, or source+toolchain? Jul 14 04:21:23 Jason1: it should be interesting to play with, anyway Jul 14 04:23:15 cibomahto: definately Jul 14 04:27:41 AntonTakk: I think at October it still needs some kind of warning: "This is for nerds and other advanced users, its not yet iPhone polished" ;-) Jul 14 04:28:02 it'll be hard to get to that point Jul 14 04:28:08 AntonTakk, thus i got a GTA01 Jul 14 04:28:10 considering the iphone has polished-to-a-mirror aluminum Jul 14 04:28:13 ;o Jul 14 04:28:33 AntonTakk, though.. i've kinda expected on at least using it as my primary phone; oh well.. more motivation to fix it Jul 14 04:28:43 unless fic decides to sell a chrome-plated plastic version Jul 14 04:28:47 ~_~ Jul 14 04:28:47 :/ Jul 14 04:29:17 that would be vaguely amusing Jul 14 04:29:44 i really, really hope that the GTA01 hardware is solid Jul 14 04:29:48 software, we can deal it Jul 14 04:29:50 with* Jul 14 04:32:57 * * OM Bug 638 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org Jul 14 04:32:58 * * libxosd-2.2.15+svn20070713-r4-do_fetch Jul 14 04:33:00 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=638 Jul 14 04:55:58 the phone on sale now, does it have wifi hardware? Jul 14 04:56:03 I'm excited for GTA02, I want the accelerometers Jul 14 04:56:03 Currently sold Neo1973 GTA01B_v04 (P1) doesn't have WiFi, GTA02 (P2) which is scheduled for October will have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Jul 14 04:56:20 aww :( Jul 14 04:56:26 The GTA01 has bluetooth right? Jul 14 04:56:30 y Jul 14 04:56:36 pretty good % on wifi trigger ;-) Jul 14 04:56:48 .. Jul 14 04:56:50 faq! Jul 14 04:56:55 faq Jul 14 04:56:55 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 14 04:56:59 faq this and faq you ~_~ Jul 14 04:57:00 I'm going to get a bluetooth USB dongle and set up a PAN for my phone Jul 14 05:01:43 is there a definite ship date for neo1973? (with wifi and such) Jul 14 05:01:54 not really Jul 14 05:02:24 October sometime Jul 14 05:02:38 I shall save my penies Jul 14 05:02:47 s/n/nn/ Jul 14 05:02:49 slavi1 meant: I shall save my pennies Jul 14 05:03:04 lol Jul 14 05:03:12 hehe Jul 14 05:03:45 also, what would stop neo1973 from being able to use high capacity sd cards (8GB+) ??? would it be a hardware limitation? Jul 14 05:03:59 the fact that you can't buy them Jul 14 05:04:04 is the real limitation right now Jul 14 05:04:06 sounds fair Jul 14 05:04:22 but as far as hardware, shouldn't be a problem, right? Jul 14 05:04:28 just to clarify because someone though some day ago it was closed: October will have WiFi with free (libre) drivers (Atheros AR6K) Jul 14 05:04:31 shouldn't Jul 14 05:04:59 also, would a 2.5" bus powered hdd draw too much battery? Jul 14 05:05:11 slavi1: 4GB and higher: AFAIC nobody has yet been able to test them Jul 14 05:05:26 aloril: k Jul 14 05:05:36 slavi1: you need battery powered USB hub for that, no power in Neo1973's USB port Jul 14 05:05:58 so, the usb is only data? Jul 14 05:06:12 calamous: I'm working on NSLU2 (and other similar routers/nas boxes) running openwrt and supporting bluetooth internet access for the Neo. Jul 14 05:06:17 hmm, the thing is, that drive has only 1 usb cable ... Jul 14 05:06:29 you could cut and solder Jul 14 05:06:51 it's the outer wires, correct? Jul 14 05:06:52 the answer is an unqualified no for almost all moble hdds though, there's no 5V rail Jul 14 05:07:00 i don't know if the 1.8" drives use 3.3v though Jul 14 05:07:16 anrp: I am refering to the WD passport series Jul 14 05:07:27 ? Jul 14 05:07:42 small drives that are bus powered, 2.5" I think Jul 14 05:08:00 you realize a 2.5" drive is practically the size of the neo right ~_~ Jul 14 05:08:46 yes :) Jul 14 05:09:00 they're generally rated 2.5W max, and they are 5V Jul 14 05:09:08 so you're going to need extra power conversion hw to run it Jul 14 05:09:17 hmm, would a separate battery pack suffice? Jul 14 05:09:21 it would Jul 14 05:09:29 k Jul 14 05:09:30 smps for the 5V rail is best but not that simple Jul 14 05:09:37 smps? Jul 14 05:09:48 although you can buy a 7805 drop in replacement switching regulator Jul 14 05:09:57 you need to regulate the voltage, smps = switched mode power supply Jul 14 05:10:03 I see Jul 14 05:10:10 uh.. sec Jul 14 05:10:19 separate battery pack with a step down would be better, no? Jul 14 05:10:29 yes Jul 14 05:10:36 you would flatten the internal battery if you tried that Jul 14 05:12:01 would neo be able to power nand flash? Jul 14 05:12:07 Battery powered USB hub: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ Jul 14 05:12:10 that's a lot better, ya Jul 14 05:12:21 this might work, AFAIC nobody has tested it Jul 14 05:12:34 k Jul 14 05:12:38 http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pt78ht205.html Jul 14 05:12:45 if you go the diy route Jul 14 05:12:55 well, I am interested in having neo be able to access the hdd while on the go Jul 14 05:13:02 slavi1: no power in USB port at all Jul 14 05:13:57 at some point FIC/OpenMoko probably will offer something that can charge Neo1973 from batteries and/or provide power to USB devices Jul 14 05:14:13 ie.. like above + http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ Jul 14 05:14:25 or you could just use that ... Jul 14 05:14:43 note that Mintyboost gives only 250mA, while Neo1973 wants 500mA Jul 14 05:14:43 k Jul 14 05:15:17 or some third party might make suitable thing ;-) Jul 14 05:15:43 for usb, max is 200ma, no? (1W) Jul 14 05:16:26 no, 500mA is max for USB Jul 14 05:16:37 100mA is max unrequested Jul 14 05:16:41 hence the 2.5W figure D: Jul 14 05:16:47 I see ... Jul 14 05:17:23 so to Neo1973 by default probably will use 100mA from Mintyboost, but I think just small change and it could use 250mA ;-) Jul 14 05:18:11 well, going to keep waiting for ship date ^^ Jul 14 05:20:12 random blog: http://afronaut.blogspot.com/2007/07/free-your-mind-then-iphone-open-letter.html Jul 14 05:21:12 anybody ordered recently? what is your rt ticket number? (just curious about rough guess about order numbers, first ticket number is 1820) Jul 14 05:24:47 3056 Jul 14 05:25:03 Wow if the first tick is 1820 I'm like the 200th person Jul 14 05:25:28 I would like the shake the person's hand who got 1821 Jul 14 05:25:49 He/she must have been camping openmoko.com for a change Jul 14 05:26:54 calamous: Im # 1820 Jul 14 05:27:18 calamous: and yes, I hit refresh a whole lot :) Jul 14 05:27:26 Wow. Congrats :) Jul 14 05:27:55 Did you get advanced or regular? Jul 14 05:28:28 Regular. I really like that box, but I dont really think I will need the debug board so I couldnt justify the extra $150 Jul 14 05:28:35 Jason1, you make me jealous :s Jul 14 05:28:49 :) Jul 14 05:29:09 Hopefully as the first order, I will be the first to get mine. Jul 14 05:29:24 did you have do type the YES_I_DO in the confirm email? Jul 14 05:29:32 yup. Jul 14 05:29:34 Jason1, nice Jul 14 05:29:42 Jason1, i wanted order 1973 Jul 14 05:29:46 When did you get your confirm email? Jul 14 05:29:48 Jason1, i got 1964 Jul 14 05:29:53 deMaestro, lol Jul 14 05:29:54 LOL. That would have been awesome! Jul 14 05:30:09 Maybe you get a discount with that number Jul 14 05:30:18 Wodner who got it. Is it in the P1 owner's list? Jul 14 05:30:25 *Wonder Jul 14 05:30:34 There is a list? Jul 14 05:30:56 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 14 05:31:27 calamous: There are a bunch of lists :) we are so bored while we wait that we are making all sorts of lists to put your name on :) Jul 14 05:31:33 wow, I didnt notice that YES_I_DO ... Jul 14 05:31:41 I thought we only had to reply if we didnt want Jul 14 05:31:51 i wonder who has the order number 1973? Jul 14 05:31:55 dantalizing: oops. thats would have sucked Jul 14 05:32:02 *that Jul 14 05:32:14 yup...glad y'all brought it up Jul 14 05:32:31 Jason, I'm from chicago too Jul 14 05:32:59 calamous: Ohh? what area? Im in the southwest suburbs Jul 14 05:33:11 Lakeview / Lincoln Park Jul 14 05:33:30 calamous: You still live here? Jul 14 05:33:39 we gotta reply YES_I_DO to the auto generated mail? Jul 14 05:33:41 Yeah Jul 14 05:34:18 Jason1, are we supposed to add ourselves to the list or? Jul 14 05:34:23 Sup3rkiddo: You should get a 2nd email askingyou to confirm your order IF you ordered your Neo before they added the "WARNING: This is a dev product" to the store Jul 14 05:34:41 daMaestro: You dont HAVE to. Just and FYI kind of thing Jul 14 05:35:10 Jason1, oh.dang..i am being sponsored the device, so i guess i should ask the one who helped me order it Jul 14 05:35:16 well.. i mean there is no automagic add? Jul 14 05:35:39 daMaestro: No. We are just manually adding ourselves Jul 14 05:36:24 calamous: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Chicago Jul 14 05:36:24 Add yourself to the Chicago area list... maybe we can get a little Neo meeting together... Jul 14 05:36:48 Yeah. That would be great. see what we can do Jul 14 05:36:53 see more lists :) Jul 14 05:39:17 When openmoko goes like in oct, do you think phone companies like ATT will have a reaction to it? Jul 14 05:39:30 (live being GTA02) Jul 14 05:39:38 no. Jul 14 05:40:50 calamous: It is a proably a little small-time for them, but it will be interesting what distribution channels that FIC uses. Jul 14 05:41:00 if we dont reply the second mail with YES_I_DO, does it mean trouble Jul 14 05:41:11 http://dev.damaestro.us/neo2.png http://dev.damaestro.us/neo1.png ... if anyone is using fedora, i've got qemu-1973 packaged and working on fc6+ Jul 14 05:41:28 Superkiddo, what is your order # Jul 14 05:42:18 DaMaestro, nice SS, I see you got beryl working too Jul 14 05:42:41 yeah.. it boils down to: yum install gnome-beryl ;-) Jul 14 05:42:57 Its like that on my ubuntu. but it was a pain (but fun) on Gentoo Jul 14 05:43:09 i'm looking forward to use compiz-fusion... should be nice Jul 14 05:43:46 What do you use for an IRC client on your box (in linux)? Jul 14 05:43:49 daMaestro: my friend is using that now it has a bunch of weird problems Jul 14 05:44:01 calamous: I use Kopete Jul 14 05:44:04 unknown_lamer, has there even been a full release? Jul 14 05:44:14 * unknown_lamer has old and slow 3d and curses the requirement of an evil proprietary driver to do anything fancy Jul 14 05:44:23 I'm using GAIM but I dont like it that much Jul 14 05:44:25 daMaestro: dunno, but one night he wandered over and demanded that I come and stare at it Jul 14 05:44:46 lol Jul 14 05:45:04 Jason, are you excited for KDE4? Jul 14 05:45:21 daMaestro: I'm kind of trapped in the land of a radeon 9100 that can play q3a and not much else Jul 14 05:45:38 eeeww.. Jul 14 05:45:48 calamous: From the stuff I have heard, yeah. Jul 14 05:45:50 the hardware itself is nice.. but fglrx sux0rs Jul 14 05:46:03 I'm fsf member #114 Jul 14 05:46:09 now fglrx for me Jul 14 05:46:32 no rather Jul 14 05:46:43 unknown_lamer, has fglrx changed changed in the past 5 years Jul 14 05:46:45 I mostly run emacs and ... emacs so I don't really need 3d Jul 14 05:46:52 I cant stand ATI's linux drivers Jul 14 05:46:54 calamous: no idea because I've never used it and never will Jul 14 05:47:05 the ati driver in xorg works fine Jul 14 05:47:10 I get reasonable 3D and everything Jul 14 05:47:16 do you just use the "radeon" driver? Jul 14 05:47:35 (the 9100 is the fastest r200 aside from the firegl 8800 which was +$100 at the time and only minimally faster) Jul 14 05:47:38 calamous: yes Jul 14 05:47:47 why would I use proprietary software? Jul 14 05:47:54 it would kind of defeat the whole purpose of a Free system Jul 14 05:48:12 I also mailed nvidia and ati to let them know I would never buy their hardware again even if they went open again Jul 14 05:48:14 used for all time Jul 14 05:48:20 they can fuck themselves at this point Jul 14 05:48:24 amd too for their empty promises Jul 14 05:48:36 so I'm pretty much unable to buy hardware nowadays Jul 14 05:48:38 Its frustraiting. I though ATI would change when AMD bough them Jul 14 05:48:41 bought* Jul 14 05:49:00 yeah, and all we got from AMD were a bunch of "oh we're going to release docs and source soooooooon" multiple times with no follow through Jul 14 05:49:05 Intel opened their graphics driver didnt they (not saying that they make the best card) Jul 14 05:49:13 yeah, but it's all integrated Jul 14 05:49:21 yeah Jul 14 05:49:34 I have my dual athlon machine and will for at least another five years so that doesn't help me :-( Jul 14 05:49:36 daMaestro: YES_I_DO_DIDDLY_DO --> ROFL! Jul 14 05:49:40 My kernel is "Tainted" unfortuantely Jul 14 05:49:51 Jason1, ;-) Jul 14 05:50:10 Jason1, the *first* think (after a phone call) i am going to do is get mplayer or other media player running Jul 14 05:50:15 so i can watch the simpsons Jul 14 05:50:15 calamous: heh mine used to be ... for the old school bsd licensed ppp compression driver :-) Jul 14 05:50:31 daMaestro, lol Jul 14 05:50:34 daMaestro: Awesome :) Jul 14 05:50:38 :) Jul 14 05:50:40 s/think/thing/ Jul 14 05:50:59 I wonder how well that will work Jul 14 05:51:15 it's going to have to be a stupid custom build Jul 14 05:51:17 my 120Mhz nokia has trouble with standard qvga 3gpp videos at higher than 25fps Jul 14 05:51:18 but it will work Jul 14 05:51:34 and my old 500mhz k6-2 couldn;t play 640x480 divx at all Jul 14 05:51:43 well, not without dropping half the frames Jul 14 05:51:46 daMaestro: Did you see the video on YouTube of the video sample? Jul 14 05:51:50 and the neo has no video scaling hardware right? Jul 14 05:52:00 i never said it would not need to also be custom encoded for the neo Jul 14 05:52:11 i plan on making a theora profile for the neo Jul 14 05:52:14 yeah, but without scaling hardware you are doomed to small videos Jul 14 05:52:19 and just using ffmpeg2theora ;-) Jul 14 05:52:28 is there a fixed point theora decoder now? Jul 14 05:53:02 i don't know Jul 14 05:53:38 google says no Jul 14 05:53:41 I think it might be difficult Jul 14 05:53:56 software emulated floating point is sloooooowwwwwwwwww Jul 14 05:54:27 The S3c2410 does not have an FPU? Jul 14 05:55:06 I'm going to pull that datasheet Jul 14 05:55:07 I was under the impression that it wasn't one of the few arms with the fpu coprocessor Jul 14 05:55:18 which is also why gtk is at 2.6 instead of 2.10 with cairo Jul 14 05:55:46 ohh alright Jul 14 05:55:57 zecke really gives Lorn Potter (Trolltech) an ear full on his blog ->http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/lovely-respond-to-lorn-potter-of.html Jul 14 05:56:20 too bad most of the criticism is baseless Jul 14 05:56:39 oh no the phone interface lib is closed ... the library you have to reimplement for every platform anyway Jul 14 05:56:52 at least the greenphone can make calls and sms Jul 14 05:57:03 it's totally not worth $700 though Jul 14 05:57:33 they dont call it a "phone" they kill it a "kit" right? Jul 14 05:58:02 is the greenphone platform making progress? Jul 14 05:58:24 there's not much traffic on the qtopia-interest list Jul 14 05:58:33 a message every few weeks Jul 14 05:58:46 unknown_lamer: wow, thats disappointing. Jul 14 05:58:52 I imagine the $700 price tag for the not $700 worth of hardware hurt it Jul 14 05:58:58 I like Qtopia more than Gtk+X :-\ Jul 14 05:59:45 yeah $700 is a bit of an investment Jul 14 06:00:40 I never know what to expect form trolltech Jul 14 06:00:53 are there any production devices runnign qtopia? Jul 14 06:01:20 I think there is a phillips phone Jul 14 06:02:33 (on a side note what do you think about http://www.savetheinternet.com/) Jul 14 06:06:03 I like QT too, Philips have a really nice phone running qtopia http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2536449379.html Jul 14 06:06:24 the Greenphone though conecpt and price is just stupid though Jul 14 06:06:33 s/though// Jul 14 06:06:33 Linux_Galore meant: the Greenphone conecpt and price is just stupid though Jul 14 06:06:55 Linux_Galore: Thats pretty slick phone Jul 14 06:07:19 Jason1: yeah 3 month waiting list in Europe Jul 14 06:07:53 Linux_Galore: Whats it cost? Jul 14 06:07:55 best wifi/voip phone I have yet seen for the consumer Jul 14 06:08:47 Linux_Galore: I am an Asterisk user, so this is interesting to me :) Jul 14 06:09:20 USD$199 Jul 14 06:12:22 dont blink another Linux VoIP phone is out http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/22/linux-powered-voip-uber-phone-does-wifi-video-conferencing/ Jul 14 06:13:02 not bad for $260 Jul 14 06:13:23 Check out the openmoko's video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5xj3FLb2Ew Jul 14 06:13:32 it has the theme song to the rock Jul 14 06:14:06 * aloril is kind of assuming everybody here who ordered actually wants one ;-) Jul 14 06:17:23 calamous: meh Jul 14 06:17:29 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Web_Browser]] [[OpenMoko_Local_groups:_Boston]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[User:Opampca]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User:DaMaestro]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] Jul 14 06:19:12 Linux_Galore: :) Jul 14 06:20:31 * aloril guesses porting Qtopia to Neo1973 would be good for Qtopia Jul 14 06:20:54 maybe they could even ask for green colored case from FIC? ;-) Jul 14 06:21:17 aloril: LOL! Jul 14 06:21:38 heh Jul 14 06:21:46 unknown_lamer: FWIW, missing FPU is really not a good reason for avoiding cairo---it works quite well without an FPU. Jul 14 06:21:52 I'm still to order my neo :( Jul 14 06:22:00 aloril: They were actually already planning a green one, right? white/green Jul 14 06:22:35 aloril: chisel of the rounded edges on the phone paint it lime green, bingo we now have a qtopia phone Jul 14 06:22:36 ewanm89_laptop: Whats the hold-up? Jul 14 06:23:23 Jason1: no, I'm just throwing suggestion in the air ;-) Jul 14 06:23:49 when the neo was being designed cairo had a piss poor performance on ARM Jul 14 06:23:58 * aloril doesn't know, but maybe changing color is not expensive? Jul 14 06:24:00 but that has been fixed in the past months Jul 14 06:24:23 aloril2: Green Neos: Jul 14 06:24:23 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html Jul 14 06:25:41 Im spray painting mine metalic silver (tungstan finnish) then adding a DC kit I have in the lab Jul 14 06:25:54 Jason1: ah, that one, don't know about existence of green ones, but red ones do exists Jul 14 06:26:25 * aloril suspects red Neo1973 might be expensive in 10 years Jul 14 06:26:25 aloril: Oh? I figured that these colors were dropped. Jul 14 06:26:26 but first I have to wait for the GTA02 Jul 14 06:26:46 Jason1: yes, not manufactured, but does exists red prototype Jul 14 06:26:55 at least one person in this channel has one Jul 14 06:27:04 Linux_Galore: so basically it will be all silver? Jul 14 06:27:47 Jason1: yes but I will be using a faux brushed metal finnish not just plain silver, that would just look so wrong Jul 14 06:28:01 aloril: sweet. I am most interest in custom cases. Some of the ideas in the Wiki are very interesting Jul 14 06:28:53 Linux_Galore: Ahh. Thats sounds cool. Jul 14 06:28:56 shiny cherry red would look nice with the rounded shape Jul 14 06:29:58 my personal view is black doesnt work well with a curved shape, with a bick like shap ie iphone it works Jul 14 06:30:06 shape* Jul 14 06:31:04 Im also thinking of making a wood case Jul 14 06:31:22 Linux_Galore: interesting. I dont think I have put that much thought into what colors compliment different shapes. Jul 14 06:31:54 Linux_Galore: now wood would be very cool. I love the custom wood laptops. Jul 14 06:31:55 Jason1: colour and shape really do work off each other Jul 14 06:32:36 Jason1: make a steam punk copper/brass case mod Jul 14 06:32:45 now that would be funky Jul 14 06:33:59 steam punk laptop http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/13/steampunk-laptop-comes-complete-with-morse-key/ Jul 14 06:35:44 steam punk watches are pretty cool -> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/ticky_tocky,-steamy_punky/japanese-steampunk-watches-get-meta-with-time-276114.php Jul 14 06:36:31 hmm make a steam punk case "kit" for the NEO $$$ Jul 14 06:38:18 typo fix >my personal view is black doesnt work well with a curved shape, with a brick shape ie iphone, black it works Jul 14 06:39:58 koen: yup Jul 14 06:41:32 RT could not load a valid user, and RT's configuration does not allow Jul 14 06:41:33 for the creation of a new user for your email. Jul 14 06:41:38 Linux_Galore, those are pretty damn cool Jul 14 06:42:30 jackey: did you send your reply from the same address that you received the email at? Jul 14 06:42:31 red isnt a bad colour either for a phone http://shop.carphonewarehouse.com/show_handset_features.php?HANDSET=21911101&TAB=FEATURES Jul 14 06:43:09 blah Jul 14 06:43:31 any case mods should not be cosmetic.. they should be functional additions Jul 14 06:43:40 i think so Jul 14 06:43:43 coloring can happen at the consumer level ;-) Jul 14 06:44:29 i think i'm all for paying someone for a case mod (that i just plug all the neo guts inside) or replacement that allows me to use mame Jul 14 06:45:06 when the openmoko gets as pretty as this Linux phone we will then have serious business http://www.samstores.com/_images/products/A1200%20red.jpg Jul 14 06:45:19 jackey: ok, thats the only suggestion i have Jul 14 06:46:06 Linux_Galore, that is good looking Jul 14 06:46:27 one of the guys at work has a ming, trust me chicks drool when they see it Jul 14 06:46:38 Motorola Ming (a1200) Jul 14 06:47:07 the laugh is its cheaper than a NEO Jul 14 06:48:14 i think i knew why Jul 14 06:48:33 http://www.motorola.com.hk/eng/motomobile/a/a1200/ .. nice Jul 14 06:48:37 i am using GMAIL stmp instead of company's stmp Jul 14 06:48:52 linux powered phone.. but a SHIT iis site that doesn't even let me look at it Jul 14 06:48:53 jackey: yep, that would be the problem Jul 14 06:49:04 daMaestro: broken link Jul 14 06:50:36 OK heres my GTA02 steam punk mod kit http://www.piratepalooza.com/rphone/graphics/hero_shot.jpg Jul 14 06:50:42 heh Jul 14 06:50:50 Linux_Galore, meh.. it doesn't look like it's an open platform Jul 14 06:50:56 blah on the ming Jul 14 06:51:35 daMaestro: make the NEO look like that for USD$300 with a working UI and you will sell a million Jul 14 06:51:36 yeah, the Ming is Linux-based, but Moto doesnt let you anywhere near it. Jul 14 06:52:10 haha, sale a million Jul 14 06:52:17 a joke Jul 14 06:52:34 toy is toy, impossible to be a product Jul 14 06:52:38 jackey: in mobile land 1 million is nothing Jul 14 06:53:04 jackey: china buys over 40 millions units a year Jul 14 06:53:31 i knew, i am from mobile industry Jul 14 06:53:42 that number I got 5 years ago it would be way over 100 mill now Jul 14 06:54:11 jackey, the neo could very easily become a good dev platform for a good software base to go onto a 3G/4G based device Jul 14 06:54:31 feature phone only sale for $40 bucks, looks like a smart phone in China Jul 14 06:54:48 3G/4G? come on. Jul 14 06:54:57 i think we (the p1 users) should drive some after market case designs that just take the guts of the neo and make it do cool things Jul 14 06:55:07 u even can not make it to be a GSM/WIFI dual model phone Jul 14 06:55:15 jackey, what are you blabbing about? Jul 14 06:55:18 qonder if we can the people behind the tphone (iphone clone) to make a Linux version Jul 14 06:55:23 wonder* Jul 14 06:55:53 daMaestro, just try to tell the truth here. Jul 14 06:56:05 jackey, GTA02 will have wifi Jul 14 06:56:22 i knew, but won't allow to sale in china Jul 14 06:56:42 jackey, most likely the neo1973 will never see 3G or 4G... but that does not mean the openmoko platform is not able to mature on the neo1973 to be put on the next device(s) FIC is working on Jul 14 06:56:44 jackey: wtf, its made in china Jul 14 06:56:53 jackey, this is true Jul 14 06:56:59 jackey, (it being made in china) Jul 14 06:57:19 i knew, make in HeFei Jul 14 06:57:23 wtf is 3.5G Jul 14 06:57:32 wanna be 4G Jul 14 06:57:33 lol Jul 14 06:57:42 daMaestro, yes. Neo is a good platform. Jul 14 06:57:46 just like we get wanna be 3G (aka 2.5G) Jul 14 06:57:47 for development. Jul 14 06:57:50 jackey, yes. Jul 14 06:57:54 Linux_Galore: Do you need to use wtf? Jul 14 06:58:13 slytherin: hmm sorry what the frig Jul 14 06:58:13 slytherin, do you need to irc as root? Jul 14 06:58:15 actually, be honest. Neo is a good reference design for us. Jul 14 06:58:15 ;-) Jul 14 06:58:32 I ordered 10 (5 advanced) Jul 14 06:58:44 daMaestro: I am not. It is just illusion. I have set user name as root in my irc client. :-D Jul 14 06:58:51 well the NEO is a good start Jul 14 06:59:09 10?! Neo hog! ;) Jul 14 06:59:24 you have to start somewere and obviously it wont be great right of the mark without a fortune behind it Jul 14 07:00:01 if it is fully open, give me two months. I will surprise you guys. Jul 14 07:00:41 hope they make a GTA03 in 2008 with everything" Jul 14 07:00:42 i through a team working on the FIC and try to make it more close to a product. Jul 14 07:01:01 jackey: Surprise with what? :-) Jul 14 07:01:02 USD$600 GTA03 would be cool Jul 14 07:01:30 that's too steep for me Jul 14 07:01:35 if it doesn't have 3G+ Jul 14 07:01:39 Linux_Galore: I hope it not. Jul 14 07:01:44 jackey, yeah.. +1 Jul 14 07:01:49 ~$300 is fine Jul 14 07:01:50 Does anyone other than me thinks that GTA refers to Grand Theft Auto? Jul 14 07:01:51 okay, daMaestro Jul 14 07:02:05 apt install what? Jul 14 07:02:16 because, i really do not want to see two much components on it right now. Jul 14 07:02:18 oh.. damn bot Jul 14 07:02:23 jackey: Im talking with "everything" ie 5mb DC 3.5" multitouch LCD etc Jul 14 07:02:24 ~$300? Jul 14 07:02:25 it has been said that $300 is fine Jul 14 07:02:29 LOL Jul 14 07:02:45 s/5mb/5MP/ Jul 14 07:02:46 Linux_Galore meant: jackey: Im talking with "everything" ie 5MP DC 3.5" multitouch LCD etc Jul 14 07:02:59 i knew, P1 is good enough, P1 + Camera is super awesome product. Jul 14 07:03:07 keep the $300 version but have a full on unit Jul 14 07:03:20 i have zero use for a camera Jul 14 07:03:24 jackey: so what are you planning to do? Jul 14 07:03:32 but that is just my personal usecase(s) Jul 14 07:03:45 damaestro: the camera can come in really handy for remembering parking spaces, prices at stores, etc Jul 14 07:03:45 what i would like to see is a very modular phone Jul 14 07:04:00 cibomahto, i have my brain for that Jul 14 07:04:02 my opinion, is that. Make a mass production before you add any additional components. Jul 14 07:04:13 Let me give an example Jul 14 07:04:22 damaestro: fair enough Jul 14 07:04:30 cibomahto, ;-) ... lol Jul 14 07:04:31 If we have to add a wifi model and have a GSM/Wifi dual model. Jul 14 07:04:42 jackey, GTA02 will have that Jul 14 07:04:58 jackey, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 Jul 14 07:05:13 There is a license issue that we can not avoid. There is a damn patent here. Jul 14 07:05:16 daMaestro: there was a really funny advertising thing (optus) here in Sydney were they had a big yellow cadilack full of penguins driving around the city, you could see people takining pic's with their mobiles Jul 14 07:05:46 jackey, patent for what? Jul 14 07:06:16 switching bwtween GSM/Wifi and roaming, i not sure but I can find out. Jul 14 07:06:46 jackey: Are you trying to build another phone which will use openmoko? Jul 14 07:06:55 oh blah.. you are talking about shit carriers Jul 14 07:06:55 no Jul 14 07:07:09 daMaestro, damn right Jul 14 07:07:19 jackey, yeah.. well... all that needs to change Jul 14 07:07:34 i will state: i hate my choice of wireless carriers Jul 14 07:07:38 period. Jul 14 07:08:00 if I make a decision on the roadmap, I will try to push a mass production instead of getting everything Jul 14 07:08:35 i think it's really funny that carriers are able to apply hot-potato routing to their fsking gsm networks Jul 14 07:08:43 yeah well I would go for a mass produced unit first too thats obvious, you can do all the crazy crap later Jul 14 07:08:48 what lame pieces of sheit Jul 14 07:09:03 from tech. view, if neo keeps adding new components, it is very hard to complete full software stacks. Jul 14 07:09:32 FOSS always has strange growing pains due to it's inherit nature of always growing Jul 14 07:09:38 for example, NEO has no Power Management. Jul 14 07:09:43 i really want FIC to step up and make a fully modular phone Jul 14 07:09:50 jackey: welcome to telecommunications, every 4 years we add a shit load of options to our gear Jul 14 07:09:52 so if i don't want a camera.. i don't get one Jul 14 07:10:12 Telephony and PM are the most hardest parts to make phone product. Jul 14 07:10:18 not sure if you guys know about it, but there is another open phone project I saw at the maker faire in san jose Jul 14 07:10:20 if i want gsm.. i get gsm.. if i want cdma.. i want cdmam edgem evdo... wifi.. wimax.. etc Jul 14 07:10:22 runs on the gumstix Jul 14 07:10:34 has a PSP display with touchscreen overlay Jul 14 07:10:49 the devs said they were working to make kits of the hardware for people Jul 14 07:10:53 wizdumb, links are nice Jul 14 07:10:57 I havent heard anythign since Jul 14 07:11:04 Linux_Galore, I agree. I see a good picture here, because openmoko is a company now. Jul 14 07:11:07 wizdumb: yeah thats a build it yourself thing aimed at small producers who want to produce niche products Jul 14 07:11:13 let me see if I can find one Jul 14 07:11:35 Linux_Galore, right its for DIYers Jul 14 07:11:43 I mention it because he asked for a modular phone Jul 14 07:11:52 ahh right Jul 14 07:11:59 wizdumb: actually the biggest users are companies who wantto monitor machinery in remote areas Jul 14 07:11:59 i'm more for the open hardware also Jul 14 07:12:05 wizdumb: not hackers Jul 14 07:12:20 check out this one www.sandbridgetech.com Jul 14 07:12:27 Linux_Galore, users of what? Jul 14 07:12:45 single chip multiple core, software stack only Jul 14 07:12:46 wizdumb: gumbstick gsm thing Jul 14 07:12:51 http://www.hbmobile.org/ i think Jul 14 07:13:35 http://hbmobile.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page Jul 14 07:13:37 yeah thats it Jul 14 07:13:54 I saw the proto, it was pretty sweet Jul 14 07:13:56 jackey, the sb3000 looks nice Jul 14 07:13:59 they had it all taken apart though Jul 14 07:14:03 and the case was ugly bue Jul 14 07:14:08 but thats changeable of course Jul 14 07:14:15 jackey, i don't like hardware media decoding though Jul 14 07:14:26 jackey, lame. patents. at. the. hardware. level. Jul 14 07:14:27 daMaestro, will you come Linux World at SFO in Aug. Jul 14 07:14:32 i saw an empty shell sitting in the techshop area, was that it? Jul 14 07:14:41 i show you the real thing Jul 14 07:14:44 jackey, i might be there Jul 14 07:14:58 someone needs to edit the page and add the openmoko Jul 14 07:15:00 great, we have a booth there. Jul 14 07:15:14 My company name: ArcherMind Technology Jul 14 07:15:23 hi Jul 14 07:15:38 jackey, do me a favor... look into including hardware based vorbis suppose ;-) Jul 14 07:16:37 support* Jul 14 07:16:39 grr Jul 14 07:17:04 few guys from SLUG (Sydney Linux User Group) have ordered a GTA01 Jul 14 07:17:29 daMaestro, target for? Jul 14 07:17:37 with luck we will have a show and tell at the next monthly meeting Jul 14 07:17:49 jackey, openess Jul 14 07:17:59 roger that Jul 14 07:19:11 jackey, i would consider looking at the sb3000 for a device i'm building; if it had zero closed source components Jul 14 07:19:15 aka.. mp3 support, etc Jul 14 07:19:37 i'm all for supporting the companies that stand up against patents that should not exists Jul 14 07:19:46 patents were not meant for what they are being used for anymore Jul 14 07:19:47 i had a latest sb3011 Jul 14 07:20:16 one thing the openmoko may do is merge all these projects Jul 14 07:20:56 not having to hack you own phone together before you even start writing code is an advantage Jul 14 07:21:09 daMaestro, you mean SB3000? Jul 14 07:21:11 FIC better start taking specs ;-) Jul 14 07:21:11 lol Jul 14 07:21:56 actually, they should take my specs first. I can make it mass production quickly. Jul 14 07:22:06 haha, may be not Jul 14 07:22:43 http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Sept2006/3700.htm Jul 14 07:24:16 i saw their demos, wifi, wimax, cdma and gps all software stacks Jul 14 07:24:36 also H.264 decoding Jul 14 07:24:41 mpeg4 decoding Jul 14 07:24:48 yeah and happily works with Linux Jul 14 07:25:19 everything is software based and operated by DSP. Jul 14 07:26:08 it has one arm 926e, 4 low power dsp and support 32 threads Jul 14 07:26:32 additional 10% for power Jul 14 07:27:11 if get a good power management, it could be just additional 7~8%, i guess. Jul 14 07:28:29 Linux_Galore, not 100% Linux yet. Because, you do not really need lots support by OS, lots of work has been taking care by DSPs Jul 14 07:28:51 jackey, Will you be at LinuxWorld in San Fran? Jul 14 07:28:59 yes Jul 14 07:29:06 I probably will be, at least for some time, at the booth for Creative Commons. Jul 14 07:29:22 paulproteus, CC++ Jul 14 07:29:52 daMaestro, Thanks! (-: Jul 14 07:30:08 paulproteus, we have a booth there too, my company : ArcherMind Technology. Jul 14 07:30:52 if anyone wants to see sb3011 demos, come to our booth. Jul 14 07:30:56 jackey, Great, I'll go stop by. (-: Jul 14 07:31:01 thx Jul 14 07:31:12 I'll try to bring a Neo. (-; Jul 14 07:31:42 Heh, that confirmation email was amusing. Jul 14 07:31:54 hads, Er, which is that? Jul 14 07:32:11 hads, .. yea, "if you really don't want to spend your money, you get one last bail out chance///" Jul 14 07:32:12 the one where you replay with YES_I_DO etc Jul 14 07:32:17 Yeah Jul 14 07:32:32 Not a bad idea though I guess. Jul 14 07:32:46 is good that they did that, and that you have to do something to indicate you have read the message Jul 14 07:32:57 I sent 3 times, last time I login via web interface and it works. Jul 14 07:34:09 i am trying to get the debug board ASAP. There is a bug on our current software stack Jul 14 07:34:19 jackey, You're in SF? Jul 14 07:34:22 I can lend you one.... Jul 14 07:34:48 no, i am in Vancouver, flight to Toronto tomorrow. Jul 14 07:34:54 jackey, Oh, okay. Jul 14 07:35:05 thx anyway. Jul 14 07:35:55 Does NEO have a MMI? Jul 14 07:37:44 hey Jul 14 07:37:50 Hey skwid_. Jul 14 07:38:07 i was wondering if there was an xml library included in openmoko ? Jul 14 07:38:08 skwid_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 14 07:38:27 yes, see OpenMoko links from faq Jul 14 07:38:32 i see that the rss reader uses mrss, but I need to parse regular xml Jul 14 07:38:37 hbmobile is a design house? Jul 14 07:38:38 in OE should be some Jul 14 07:39:09 which one ? Jul 14 07:39:18 http://hbmobile.org Jul 14 07:40:23 skwid_, through Python on it? not sure Jul 14 07:40:31 python ? Jul 14 07:41:13 damn got a flight at 6AM Jul 14 07:43:28 daMaestro, give up with MoTo Jul 14 07:45:36 hmh, I haven't gotten a confirmantion e-mail; maybe it got classified as spam, and due to maintenance I won't be able to access that box until monday :I Jul 14 08:12:57 mjr: Just mail YES_I_DO in a mail with [rt.internal.openmoko.org #XXXX] as your subject. ;) Jul 14 08:17:49 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Montreal]] [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] Jul 14 08:23:19 CM, yeah I did that after finding out the subject and from lines Jul 14 08:25:42 I got a swift reply for my first message that I sent using my wrong address Jul 14 08:26:12 nothing so far on the right ones (the first PGP-signed by accident, so I sent another in case that screws things up :] ) Jul 14 08:27:20 no news is good news :) Jul 14 08:27:40 too bad I can not check my credit card bill before the end of the month... Jul 14 08:28:02 "Do you, dear valued customer, take this beloved neo to love and to hold, in sickness and in health?" Jul 14 08:28:08 "YES_I_DO" Jul 14 08:28:19 mjr: I didn't get a conformation either, I think thats just the way they do things Jul 14 08:28:22 good morning Jul 14 08:28:44 righto Jul 14 08:32:11 Kero, they arent billing until they shipped them Jul 14 08:33:47 Is there a way to get the keyboard button to come up, sometimes it dosen't seem to want to. Jul 14 08:35:26 ewanm89_laptop: Many have complained on that bug, but no one seems to know what is causing it Jul 14 08:35:53 Yeah, sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't, real weird. Jul 14 08:36:03 Guess I'll have to ssh in. Jul 14 08:37:54 codyl: that's cool. my remark was more of a punch at my credit card company. Jul 14 08:38:20 know how to ssh in when running in qemu? Jul 14 08:38:23 * Kero thinks on-line access to the last minute of info is a regular feature these days :) Jul 14 08:39:12 ewanm89: i think you have to emulate a usb port, and then set up a ethernet-over-usb connection Jul 14 08:39:50 ewanm: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU#Setting_up_USB_connection Jul 14 08:41:00 So I found :) Jul 14 08:51:56 mornin' Jul 14 08:52:45 morning, bye, reboot Jul 14 08:52:55 Stephmw: mornin... what time-zone are you in? Jul 14 08:53:24 gcb77: the one that crawls out of bed at 10am :D Jul 14 08:53:31 Stephmw: hi Jul 14 08:53:51 lol, I need to move there Jul 14 09:21:38 olpc and Intel join forces BBC -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6897950.stm Jul 14 09:22:59 Im not really suprised to be honest Jul 14 09:24:07 servers will be Intel and the laptops AMD, means neither can strangle the project Jul 14 09:35:33 so olpc now sells servers? Jul 14 09:35:59 save for the display, asus eee looks much more capable to me, anyhow Jul 14 09:38:56 Linux_Galore, OLPC servers? one-laptop-per-child servers? the german magazine prolinux made a april-fool to that: OSFOLPC (one-server-for-one-laptop-per-child). but this was a fool. why the heck should the OLPC-project produce servers??? Jul 14 09:41:12 su Jul 14 09:41:18 one per school? Jul 14 09:42:46 Servers are needed to an extent. Jul 14 09:42:58 These can in many cases be OLPCs Jul 14 09:43:26 For example, internet connectivity or storage nodes Jul 14 09:44:27 servers are part of the OLPC project Jul 14 09:44:45 i imagine the servers could be built more cheaply than the laptops Jul 14 09:44:55 just need a CPU and a disk, no expensive camera, touchscreen, etc. Jul 14 09:45:19 the server in a way can eb even more simplified than the laptop Jul 14 09:45:38 The OLPC screen is not touch Jul 14 09:47:07 Touch + dirty children = bad. Jul 14 09:47:29 Touch + dirty woman = good Jul 14 09:47:39 Not with touchscreens :) Jul 14 09:47:59 Is the qemu -usbgdget and openoko addition? Jul 14 09:48:47 IIRC no Jul 14 09:49:01 I could well be wrong though. Jul 14 09:49:26 the more hardware companies behind the OLPC the better Jul 14 09:49:44 it is a huge undertaking Jul 14 09:49:48 As long as it's quality hardware. Jul 14 09:50:07 Indeed. Several hundred million laptops. Jul 14 09:50:38 SpeedEvil: I dare say over the next 10 years there will be more than one manufacturer of OLPC compliant equipment Jul 14 09:50:46 All sorts of apps become possible. Jul 14 09:50:59 Given IP connectivity and children in africa. Jul 14 09:51:15 SpeedEvil: I cant see many of the others sitting on the side line while a whole new platform evolves Jul 14 09:51:22 Or even prople in africa. Jul 14 09:51:51 For example, remote controlled vacuum cleaners. Jul 14 09:52:31 SpeedEvil: there are people in the USA who cant get network access and children who cant afford a laptop, you would be suprised were the line of communications and western standards end Jul 14 09:52:42 Not really. Jul 14 09:52:57 There are gnettos everwhere. Jul 14 09:53:16 * SpeedEvil wonders if he coined a new word. Jul 14 09:53:27 Well I get Warning: could not find USB gadgetfs with the switch. Jul 14 09:53:47 SpeedEvil: I do work for a group here in Australia called computers bank, we are in the top 20 when it comes to quality of life in the world and I have gone to places were kids have no access to a PC Jul 14 09:54:13 "" UK Jul 14 09:54:32 computer bank recycles PC's from big companies ie puts linux on them and we go and install them in remote community centres Jul 14 09:55:07 Could not add USB 'device gadget:1' Jul 14 09:55:07 It's not the funding in many cases, it's the understanding as to why it might be useful and the knowledge to install. Jul 14 09:55:41 lol @ gnettos Jul 14 09:56:06 ewanm89_laptop: did you follow all the instructions on the wiki? Jul 14 09:56:41 (header files, modules built, modules installed, /dev/gadget mounted, etc.) Jul 14 09:56:43 gcb77: Yes Jul 14 09:58:40 ewanm89_laptop: what does "info usbslave" Jul 14 09:58:42 return? Jul 14 09:58:52 Same as in the wiki. Jul 14 10:00:05 any messages being displayed in the shell where you run qemu from? Jul 14 10:00:23 Well I get Warning: could not find USB gadgetfs Jul 14 10:00:48 what does it list when you type "ls /dev/gadget"? Jul 14 10:01:54 dummy_udc Jul 14 10:02:25 -rw------- 1 ewanm89 root 0 2007-07-14 10:43 dummy_udc Jul 14 10:02:44 when you run lsmod do you see all of these: cdc_ether usbnet gadgetfs and dummy_hcd? Jul 14 10:03:14 No, dummy_hcd is compiled in. Jul 14 10:03:53 ewanm89_laptop: I misread that "No, dummy. hcd is compiled in." Jul 14 10:03:58 * Stephmw grins Jul 14 10:04:03 lol Jul 14 10:04:25 And I sthink usb_net and cdc_ether, Jul 14 10:04:36 what distro? Jul 14 10:04:56 gentoo, hence I compiled them in. Jul 14 10:05:22 which kernel? Jul 14 10:05:35 2.6.22 vanilla Jul 14 10:06:14 I ran into permission problems (user did not have access to read /dev/gadget) Jul 14 10:06:34 I'm on openSuSE 10.2, 2.6.18 Jul 14 10:06:50 cdc_ether == g_ether here. Jul 14 10:07:42 And I loaded that module. Jul 14 10:08:15 g_ether is a different module, I think Jul 14 10:08:26 I have both (had to build g_ether myself) Jul 14 10:09:11 every time I loaded it, my system asked if I want to configure it as a network Jul 14 10:09:13 I compiled it in then. Jul 14 10:09:55 did you re-build qemu after you compiled/loaded the modules? Jul 14 10:09:55 usb0 network can be configured host side for a real neo. Jul 14 10:10:07 gcb77: No, should I? Jul 14 10:10:15 there was a note on the wiki about that Jul 14 10:10:52 "It is important that this is done before building qemu because the build system checks if these headers are functional and in case they aren't found it will disable the USB Slave functionality." Jul 14 10:13:43 I've seem to run into problem quite when compiling (make openmoko-devel-image) Jul 14 10:13:45 any neo1973 wallpapers yet ? Jul 14 10:13:46 http://pastebin.com/mde22257 Jul 14 10:15:32 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 14 10:16:14 Gorth2: you've looked at "http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Before_you_begin" Jul 14 10:16:26 the "dash" problem? Jul 14 10:17:19 How so I get mokomakefile to redo build-qemu? Jul 14 10:18:23 gcb77: Yes, I have (I have run dpkg-reconfigure dash) Jul 14 10:18:29 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[P1_Owners]] Jul 14 10:19:02 ewanm89_laptop: Not sure if you want to go this far, but looks like "make clobber-qemu; make build-qemu" would do it Jul 14 10:19:27 clobber, that's probably the one I'm looking for. Jul 14 10:19:56 gcb77: This is correct, right? "/bin/sh -> bash" Jul 14 10:20:12 Gorth2: Yes Jul 14 10:20:13 yes, should be using bash Jul 14 10:21:11 Gorth2: I ran into some trouble when I was trying to build in other than /home/moko Jul 14 10:21:22 gcb77: Any other checks I can run to verify I have the correct setup? Jul 14 10:21:32 gcb77: Ahhh, I can try that.. Jul 14 10:21:59 There was another note on the wiki about using absolute paths, under the Development section Jul 14 10:22:04 not sure if it applies Jul 14 10:22:19 The build takes ~10gb Jul 14 10:22:38 I ended up creating a dedicated partition and mounting it under /home/moko Jul 14 10:24:13 some nice wallpapers would be cool Jul 14 10:24:20 I have it on my home partition at /home/moko/ Jul 14 10:24:36 I'm using the openmoko.com pictures Jul 14 10:24:49 Maybe a screen grab and a picture of a neo? Jul 14 10:25:04 gcb77: Thanks. I'm trying it out now. Let's see if it works. Jul 14 10:25:18 * gcb77 wishes he had a real neo to take pictures of and use as wallpapers Jul 14 10:25:45 I suspect that may have meant the other sort of wallpaper :) Jul 14 10:26:04 Or I suppose for your PC too. Jul 14 10:26:21 gadget_ep_parse: failed to configure gadgetfs: -16 Jul 14 10:26:23 People with pictures of phones on their walls - back away slowly! Jul 14 10:26:51 heh Jul 14 10:27:05 ewanm89_laptop: that looks familiar... I remember seeing it Jul 14 10:27:28 Shall I give usb0 an addr? Jul 14 10:27:32 I think it may have been the permission problem Jul 14 10:27:55 look at your shell output Jul 14 10:28:07 Owned by me with read and write perms. Jul 14 10:28:21 and you modprobed with the correct options? Jul 14 10:28:22 That was from shell output. Jul 14 10:28:31 Yes. Jul 14 10:28:41 let me look through my notes Jul 14 10:29:02 Today a new gadget cult was dispanded by authorities .... officer on scene " yes it started with a small mobile phone then they started putting wallpaper images of the device on their computers before anyone knew what was happening it turned into a gadget cult of the likes not seen since the iphone" Jul 14 10:29:57 morning Jul 14 10:30:39 heh, should have set up a procmail rule before subscribing to the openmoko list Jul 14 10:31:12 gtg, bye Jul 14 10:32:22 I'm out too ( 3:30 am here :) Jul 14 10:50:45 heh, make a sign from this and put it on the openmoko office front door http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=102464849&size=m Jul 14 10:52:53 hahaha Jul 14 11:01:54 why Bill hates flying http://www.flickr.com/photos/colinj/18760940/in/set-442295/ Jul 14 11:04:01 even better pic http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixn/805651718/ Jul 14 11:08:24 * aloril wonders about "since there has been some misunderstanding" in mail asking confirmation Jul 14 11:08:41 probably somebody who though (s)he would be getting end user device Jul 14 11:10:06 * ewon has yet to receive such an email Jul 14 11:10:59 (just to cover people who might be here and be mistaken ;-) Jul 14 11:11:16 though.. maybe those won't read topic anyway :-( Jul 14 11:11:31 aloril: hmm. what if i already ordered two openmoko's? one basic and one advanced? Jul 14 11:11:41 what was the subject line of the confirm email btw? Jul 14 11:11:51 aloril: this system doesn't allow to change the colors :} Jul 14 11:12:12 ewon: [rt.internal.openmoko.org #????] Your OpenMoko direct order Jul 14 11:12:13 ewon: did https://direct.openmoko.com/ "WARNING: Developers only!" what it has now when you ordered? Jul 14 11:12:31 aloril: it is not a big problem for me. Jul 14 11:12:34 wbx: in that case use plain English, there is human at other side anyway Jul 14 11:12:53 aloril: ah, okay. i used both methods :} Jul 14 11:13:15 i thought it will be scripted ;) Jul 14 11:13:29 umm.. same color and you want both, then you just need YES_I_DO (and maybe ORANGE if you wanted that instead of default one) Jul 14 11:13:38 its both I think Jul 14 11:13:50 aloril: no, basic in black, advanced in orange :} Jul 14 11:13:52 if you mail CANCEL, you will get immediate reply Jul 14 11:14:02 wbx: OK, then you need English ;-) Jul 14 11:14:05 aloril: to late. Jul 14 11:14:41 aloril: yes Jul 14 11:14:43 aloril: yes. i think I made it clear in my mail. we will see. anyway, black or orange, is just a color. i just want hardware to hack :} Jul 14 11:14:51 (based on what one person who accidentally ordered twice, canceled bigger rt number) Jul 14 11:15:24 and got instant reply for that CANCEL, there doesn't seem to be any automatic reply for YES_I_DO mails Jul 14 11:15:31 aloril: no. that was to risky for me. i ordered tuesday, and I NEVER will cancel this ;) Jul 14 11:15:39 neither me ;-) Jul 14 11:16:03 * aloril hasn't heard anybody actually canceling (except for duplicate order) Jul 14 11:16:16 does anybody know, if the openmoko team need help in system administration? Jul 14 11:16:34 i heard there are sometimes problems with rt or mailman.. Jul 14 11:20:31 records: 343 nicks at 2007-07-09; 352 nicks at 2007-07-10; 364 nicks at 2007-07-12 Jul 14 11:22:51 hey woglinde, how goes it? Jul 14 11:23:00 he stephmw Jul 14 11:23:12 hm cacao suckz a little bit with crosscompiling Jul 14 11:23:35 and there was one who submitted recipes for it in the bugtracker at oe Jul 14 11:23:55 there is one file which must generated native under all circumstances Jul 14 11:24:53 woglinde: if you have any problems with cacao, have a chat with twisti in #cacao, he's very responsive :) Jul 14 11:25:04 hehe Jul 14 11:25:14 yes he is the one who wrotes genoffset Jul 14 11:32:21 Japanese Government are all go on ODF http://www.govtech.com/gt/126612?topic=117674 Jul 14 11:34:30 O! Jul 14 11:35:51 if this rumor is true: 2007-07-14 05:28:23 like, the shipping unit doesn't have the libs you'll need to talk to the GSM daemon from the gui Jul 14 11:36:06 comment at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1#Before_you_start makes sense (would make anyway, but ..;-) Jul 14 11:39:06 That SH1 page sounds like if they do not even ship gllin?! Jul 14 11:39:22 hehe, OLPC starts much bigger than Neo1973: production starts once 3 million units ordered Jul 14 11:39:22 How is joe hacker supposed to get hold of it? Jul 14 11:39:56 Elrond: 1) its in image but many will accidentally wipe it (just like with free P1 devices) Jul 14 11:40:01 Wasn't there romours of BOGOF? Jul 14 11:40:11 2) you can download it from somewhere Jul 14 11:40:15 Nouveau driver exceeds the 2D performence of the "binary only" Nvidia driver -> http://linuxupdate.blogspot.com/2007/07/nouveau-driver-2d-performance-exceeds.html Jul 14 11:40:27 BOGOF? Jul 14 11:40:28 3) 1) and 2) Jul 14 11:40:38 Buy One Get One Free Jul 14 11:40:40 hopefully 2) Jul 14 11:41:31 aloril - Yeah, I hope for (2). Jul 14 11:41:39 SpeedEvil: rumor, then refutation, then 'maybe some future date' Jul 14 11:42:00 aloril - Well, SH1 says "May not even boot linux". Sounds much like "no rootfs, but at least a u-boot, so you can put kernel/rootfs on it" Jul 14 11:42:01 I spose it depends on orders. Jul 14 11:42:03 Elrond: gllin what was accidentally shipped is just test program I think? Jul 14 11:42:12 oops sorry Nvidia sponsored NV driver Jul 14 11:42:40 aloril - It's both: A test program and a full driver. Jul 14 11:42:54 ah, ok Jul 14 11:43:20 Elrond: so you can use it as library for gsmd? Jul 14 11:43:24 And it has some good points: It reseted my GLHH to a more sane state. Jul 14 11:44:04 With results? Jul 14 11:44:11 aloril - s/gsmd/gpsd/ : Not really. It's a standaline executable, which gives NMEA on its own. I have not tried to connect gpsd to this NMEA stream. Jul 14 11:44:17 It doesn't reset if you turn the power off to it? Jul 14 11:44:21 option 4) its not in image and you can't get it somewhere is bad option, don't think think that will happen Jul 14 11:44:26 hello Jul 14 11:44:34 docdoc: yes Jul 14 11:44:40 anyone has the neo already in hand Jul 14 11:44:46 many. Jul 14 11:44:53 None of the recent order Jul 14 11:44:59 That may ship around 16th Jul 14 11:45:14 Elrond: ah, then I would say its kind of test program that is also able to produce NMEA, not actual binary library that is meant to be used with gpsd Jul 14 11:45:29 does the dialer already work Jul 14 11:45:29 You can trivially plug it into gpsd Jul 14 11:45:34 hi all, i'm trying to read my microSD with a USB adapter, it can be enough to load MMC drivers? Jul 14 11:45:35 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 14 11:45:37 just in case you haven't seen: Jul 14 11:45:38 is there any apps already working Jul 14 11:45:38 faq Jul 14 11:45:38 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 14 11:45:49 sunrises: you don't need to do that. Jul 14 11:45:51 SpeedEvil - Reset: Well, after some playing the HH was in the following state: Reboot (even after leaving the main battery out for two days), then try to enable the HH for once: It gives only two zero bytes, turn it off, turn it on again: It works. Jul 14 11:46:05 sunrises: you need usb-storage, scsi, sd-mod Jul 14 11:46:20 sunrises: It appears like any other mass-storage device. Jul 14 11:46:28 SpeedEvil: ah..i think i missed sd-mod Jul 14 11:46:37 SpeedEvil: yes i notice it Jul 14 11:46:40 SpeedEvil - After running gllin a few times, it's back at: Turn neo on, start my tools, they work immediately. No two "cycles". Jul 14 11:46:41 that's scsi-disk Jul 14 11:46:49 not anything to do with secure digital Jul 14 11:46:57 SpeedEvil: ok Jul 14 11:47:00 SpeedEvil: yes, but I think intention was that to use it as library and produce something nicer than NMEA, I might remember wrong tough Jul 14 11:47:01 Elrond: odd Jul 14 11:47:15 with sd-mod you means all sd modules in kernel or right the sd-mod module? Jul 14 11:47:21 aloril: I think much of the language on the wiki may me mine. Jul 14 11:47:32 sunrises: sd-mod is scsi-disk Jul 14 11:47:40 ok..clear Jul 14 11:47:43 going to try Jul 14 11:47:47 sunrises: you need the rest of the scsi modules, and the usb-storage module. Jul 14 11:47:59 SpeedEvil: hmm..yes, but I remember hearing it from irc from core team member Jul 14 11:48:01 SpeedEvil: yes i have that cause i can mount usb Jul 14 11:48:06 and of course the working USB subsystem Jul 14 11:48:14 if it matters, I can try to hunt for it .. Jul 14 11:48:38 aloril - Yes, I heard that too. It was postponed indefinetely. Jul 14 11:48:45 aloril: IIRC it was expressed as a 'binary plugin' to gpsd. Jul 14 11:49:03 Right. And that was AFAIK postponed. Jul 14 11:49:11 aloril: Which the current program - with the appropriate script basically is. Jul 14 11:49:30 You plug the output of gllin into a named pipe, and feed it into gpsd. Jul 14 11:49:39 minus1cjb: *ping* Jul 14 11:50:12 yeah, a plugin does not necessarily mean a library Jul 14 11:50:22 ewon: ah, there you ar. Jul 14 11:50:25 SpeedEvil - gllin already writes to a named pipe. The script needs to first start gpsd, so gpsd opens the read side of it first. (One has to open the read (listen) side first). Jul 14 11:50:36 yeah - I know. Jul 14 11:51:55 I hope there will once be an update to gllin. Increasing its performance in bad signal situations. Jul 14 11:56:02 gllin ? gps shell Jul 14 11:56:02 docdoc: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 14 11:56:19 docdoc - gllin := binary driver for gps chip Jul 14 12:05:58 hey, here is one thing where some future hardware could provide something that AFAIC no other camera phone offers: INRA and/or UV Jul 14 12:07:32 sony cameras can do that Jul 14 12:07:33 instead of bayer pattern, use something that provides more than just RGB Jul 14 12:07:37 it's not terribly useful Jul 14 12:07:58 and Fuji too: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0707/07071304fujifilmispro.asp Jul 14 12:08:14 yeah, I guess it doesn't go enough infra Jul 14 12:08:25 this is insane: http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2460&ProductName=GA-N680SLI-DQ6 Jul 14 12:12:58 can i install a working app with ipkg Jul 14 12:14:02 why is no app except dialing yet working although the source is available in angstrom Jul 14 12:16:17 can i install source code from angstrom-distribution apps Jul 14 12:17:14 I think you can install ipkg packages Jul 14 12:17:18 ewon: i have made mostly bad experience with gigabyte Jul 14 12:17:38 ipkg and angstrom-distribution Jul 14 12:17:38 ? Jul 14 12:18:26 Vegar i known i can make packages for ipkg; is this possible for angstrom-distribution Jul 14 12:18:29 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Berlin]] [[Advertising]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Bucharest]] [[User:Csdexter]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Bucharest]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] Jul 14 12:20:25 openmoko is close to angstrom (or you can use angstrom instead) Jul 14 12:22:41 angstrom just uses EABI, while openmoko uses OABI. Jul 14 12:22:53 I hope gllin will be available for OABI once. Jul 14 12:41:09 when can I find information for setting up my OE enviornment to build for openmoko? Jul 14 12:41:30 * CM guesses the OE wiki Jul 14 12:42:43 CM: can't find setting up oe guide there Jul 14 12:42:48 dcordes, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko at the end of the page. Jul 14 12:42:57 ah that'S where I was. didn't see it Jul 14 12:43:10 No problem :) Jul 14 12:47:01 "Download the OpenMoko metadata directory from svn" isn't that done via monotone? Jul 14 12:48:00 dcordes: did you try mokomakefile? Jul 14 12:48:11 dcordes: it does everything for you automatically Jul 14 12:48:22 dcordes: and even if you won't use it, you can look at it and see how it's done Jul 14 12:49:45 cesarb: thing is I already have OE set up for angstrom and don't want to mess up everything Jul 14 12:50:12 I'd like to be able to build for both machines. Jul 14 12:51:35 dcordes: anyways, take a look at mokomakefile... for instance, by looking at it, I can see it gets OE from mtn but the openmoko OE packages come from svn Jul 14 12:52:08 dcordes: (and note that openmoko uses a fixed old OE revision, instead of the equivalent of HEAD on monotone) Jul 14 12:53:10 Quite a list here: http://www.osimconference.com/newt/l/handsetsvision/osim/speakers.html Jul 14 12:54:15 cesarb: can't I build the whole system from scratch instead of downloading them? Jul 14 12:55:05 dcordes: http://downloads.openmoko.org/tmp/neo1973/ipk/ Jul 14 12:55:39 dcordes: you mean the svn with the packages? they aren't compiled packages, they are the openmoko-specific .bb files for bitbake Jul 14 12:55:49 ah I see Jul 14 12:56:14 I will use moko makefile to setup it up from scratch Jul 14 12:56:40 It takes a while to build, but I guess you know that already Jul 14 12:57:15 yep Jul 14 12:57:33 is there any reason why you use that old revision of OE? Jul 14 12:58:05 mickeyl is working on mergeing them together Jul 14 12:58:45 FIC thought that oe was too much of a moving target in the beginning, or something. Jul 14 12:59:43 I see Jul 14 12:59:53 CM: I'd say it was a good idea, since they didn't have to use time tracking a moving target and could concentrate on getting the hardware ready to ship... Jul 14 13:00:10 (of course, now that it's ready to ship, merging it upstream is a good idea too) Jul 14 13:00:25 s/merging it/merging it with/ Jul 14 13:00:25 cesarb meant: (of course, now that it's ready to ship, merging it with upstream is a good idea too) Jul 14 13:02:31 rod's webiste seems to be down. Could somebody give me a mirror for moko makefile? Jul 14 13:06:21 dcordes: try this: http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/Makefile Jul 14 13:07:50 :) Jul 14 13:08:45 is it required to change that to make it download the right OE revision? Jul 14 13:09:26 No, that's already in there I think. OPENMOKO_MTN_REV = e2dbb52fe39df7ef786b6068f6178f29508dfded Jul 14 13:10:35 dcordes: no, dont think so Jul 14 13:13:09 oh it also fetches an ancient version of bitbake Jul 14 13:13:56 How old? 1.8.6 for me Jul 14 13:15:48 nvm Jul 14 13:16:42 deoes the makefile do anything further after downloading OE? Jul 14 13:17:37 have you read the wiki? you can build the image with make openmoko-devel-image and run the emulator with make qemu Jul 14 13:17:53 Is there an application prototype page in the wiki? Jul 14 13:18:07 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Jul 14 13:18:24 * SpeedEvil is fleshing out the openstreetmap page into a proper app. Jul 14 13:18:28 Hi mickeyl ! Jul 14 13:18:35 morning Elrond Jul 14 13:19:24 Morning. Jul 14 13:19:27 jpcass: that's what I'm trying to do since I'm not one of the proud owners yet Jul 14 13:20:00 mickeyl - Is every developer busy scribbling addresses on packets or are they just hanging out in the sun at the swimming pool? ;o) (I'm just wondering, because nobody looked at my patch in bugzilla. ;o) ) Jul 14 13:20:08 dcordes: I got it working last night, its nice but slow (2.4Ghz core-2 duo) Jul 14 13:21:43 Elrond: there's a temporary shortage of developers currently, let alone developers who spend their time doing actual development. sorry, and please have some more patience. Jul 14 13:22:36 mickeyl - Hey, no problem. I was just wondering. One of the reasons I like to put patches in bugzilla is, so they wont ever get lost. Jul 14 13:22:42 agreed. Jul 14 13:25:20 There. Done with the first build. Jul 14 13:25:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap - that look sane? Jul 14 13:25:59 Hi there ;-) Jul 14 13:27:55 correct me if I'm mistaken, but you can use Neo's built-in GPS chip for providing new OSM-data, can't you? Jul 14 13:28:46 Yes. Jul 14 13:28:52 Ophelia: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap Jul 14 13:28:55 ^^ Jul 14 13:29:12 right Jul 14 13:29:27 thanks, dcordes Jul 14 13:29:40 thank SpeedEvil Jul 14 13:29:55 that was actually why I was asking ;-) Jul 14 13:30:06 Just trying to work out the logical limits of this app. Jul 14 13:30:27 which app? Jul 14 13:30:36 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openstreetmap Jul 14 13:31:37 It could grow as far as a map display and editing and tracking, and live 'where users are' app, but I think it's logical to keep it moderately minimal. Jul 14 13:32:59 I think it'd be nice if you can use it as a pocket GPS device Jul 14 13:33:22 like a 'replacement' for the GoogleMaps-thing Apple has Jul 14 13:33:28 the app I mean Jul 14 13:33:51 rwhitby: moko makefile is a fine thing :) Jul 14 13:34:20 Ophelia: that's really a seperate app Jul 14 13:34:35 Ophelia: show a map as the user wanders around. This is more for adding to the map. Jul 14 13:34:39 BTW: my MacOS-port works :-) Jul 14 13:34:46 :) Jul 14 13:35:51 1st sentence: OSM; 2nd sentence: GoogleMaps? Jul 14 13:35:51 reverse order Jul 14 13:36:29 Sorry - what do you mean? Jul 14 13:37:00 where can I find a legend for the OSM? Jul 14 13:37:11 legend? Jul 14 13:37:19 'In the beginning was the world...' Jul 14 13:37:24 dcordes: like a logo? Jul 14 13:37:35 I mean, you said: "That's really a seperate app" Jul 14 13:37:46 which did you mean, SpeedEvil? Jul 14 13:38:01 I'm looking for a description of the several colours used for OSM routes Jul 14 13:38:07 Ophelia: Adding to the map and showing existing maps is really a seperate application. Jul 14 13:38:10 Ophelia: openstreetmap is about creating maps collaboratively Jul 14 13:38:16 http://www.openstreetmap.org/ Jul 14 13:38:38 Existing maps may be downloaded over GPRS, in the case of google-maps, for example. Jul 14 13:38:39 legend was a bad port from the german language :9 Jul 14 13:38:52 dcordes: ah, a key? Jul 14 13:38:56 yyep Jul 14 13:38:57 key - I think may be the english you want. Jul 14 13:39:19 Ophelia: for viewing, or openstreetmap data when there is nothing else. Jul 14 13:39:37 dcordes: that varies according to the renderer... Jul 14 13:39:38 aha Jul 14 13:40:11 cjb_ie: wouldn't it be better to have a common layout there? Jul 14 13:40:17 dcordes: it's rendered distributedly, and some of the renderers have different settings... Jul 14 13:40:28 well, there should be an application that incorporates GoogleMaps, then ;-) Jul 14 13:41:03 Ophelia: that's pretty obvious. It's complicated by the fact that google-maps doesn't legally allow you to cache the map tiles. Jul 14 13:41:06 Which is a pity. Jul 14 13:41:11 or the customized Maps from OSM Jul 14 13:41:23 cannot we use those? Jul 14 13:41:31 OSM - and I'm a contributor - is a joke. Jul 14 13:41:40 For actual navigation purposes over most of the world. Jul 14 13:42:00 It has places where it is usable for rough navigation. Jul 14 13:42:06 since they're OpenSource Jul 14 13:42:13 And very occasional hot-spots where it's actually good. Jul 14 13:42:13 how's the battery life on phase1? Jul 14 13:42:33 matthew_: almost irrelevant - much of the software isn't there to do powersave. Jul 14 13:42:47 Hopefully there are no hardware bugs that would preclude it. Jul 14 13:43:36 But practically - excepting places where governments or other bodies are releasing map data to OSM, and the hot-spots, it's going to be a decade at least before it can actually be used by most people. Jul 14 13:43:56 For navigation like they would any other map. Jul 14 13:44:27 As a trivial example, my local town of 40K was entirely missing. My local city of 140K had one road. Jul 14 13:45:51 matthew_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management may be of use Jul 14 13:46:05 thanks Jul 14 13:46:31 i would probably get a phase1 if not for that problem. Jul 14 13:46:43 It's not a hardware problem. Jul 14 13:46:52 It's simply software - which will be fixed. Jul 14 13:47:24 huh, might get one when that happens then. Jul 14 13:50:26 hmm Jul 14 13:50:26 why is that? Jul 14 13:50:29 oh dear Jul 14 13:50:31 hmm Jul 14 13:52:46 matthew_: the common case for all phones I have worked on (closed and otherwise) is that power management is left towards the end of other software development Jul 14 13:53:10 matthew_: mostly because you really don't have much of an idea about power consumption until all the rest of the software is ready... including hardware drivers Jul 14 13:53:15 oh, that's unfortunate. Jul 14 13:53:30 i understand Jul 14 13:54:25 imagine the worst case where someone leaves the camera switched on (bug, obviously) on HEAD... and then someone in power management bases calculations on that... woops, 10mins talktime :) Jul 14 13:54:56 ... yes, camera wasn't a great example... none on the Neo :) Jul 14 13:55:41 * Stephmw is wondering if the authors of GetOpt could have made the lib any more obfuscated to use Jul 14 13:55:47 bluetooth+sd+gps in search mode, then. Jul 14 13:55:56 and backlight Jul 14 13:56:04 and Sieve Jul 14 13:56:05 Hm... that page says that the PMU IRQ can't do wake-up... wasn't it fixed before P1? Jul 14 13:57:56 yeah, there's a conflict between http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management, which says the PMU IRQ can't do wake-up, and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware, which says it's one of the GTA01Bv3 errata (and below it says all GTA01Bv3 errata were fixed already) Jul 14 13:58:15 i'm just afraid that buyers (who are developers) of phase0 and 1 and wasting most of their time trying to put a different OS on the phone, or trying to get the most complicated games to run, instead of the important stuff. Jul 14 13:59:00 matthew_: I'm guesstimating about half of the developer's time would be going on their own tangents, while the other half would be generally useful Jul 14 13:59:38 matthew_: I'm also guessing nobody will make a working Win32 DFU flasher before P2 Jul 14 13:59:51 (but then, these are only my wild guesses) Jul 14 14:00:49 whats a DFU flasher? Jul 14 14:01:37 matthew_, they can do whatever they please, such is the nature of FOSS - you cannot tell volunteers what to do Jul 14 14:02:06 matthew_, that's why sometimes the term "herding cats" is used to describe trying to run FOSS projects Jul 14 14:03:20 thomasg: DFU is the standard used for flashing in the bootloader... Jul 14 14:03:31 thomasg: on Unix, you'd use dfu-util Jul 14 14:06:37 but a missing win32 version wouldn't be really a problem, would it? :) I mean, you cannot build openmoko on win32 (without a big effort) and for flashing the bootloader you'd need a development board, too. I don't think, that there will be many windows-developers :) Jul 14 14:08:24 ie. the way to do this on windows is "first install vmware, then install some linux inside vmware..." Jul 14 14:09:04 thomasg - Not to mention, that the usbnet driver does not like windows. Jul 14 14:09:07 thomasg: some people on windows might want to update the kernel Jul 14 14:09:13 thomasg: or even the root fs Jul 14 14:09:19 ckuethe some people are developing like that ;) - some companies even hand out vmware-images Jul 14 14:09:29 thomasg: to some NEW AND IMPROVED!!!111 version from the openmoko website Jul 14 14:09:43 ^^ Jul 14 14:10:12 well, at moment the neo is a pure geek-phone for unix-users, that won't change in the next time :) Jul 14 14:10:14 i'll probably do that. Jul 14 14:10:24 thomasg: thus, for the non-developer version, a windows newbie-proof flasher is needed Jul 14 14:10:31 since IDApro is much more comfortable under windows than linux Jul 14 14:10:43 I'm getting "U-boot failed to finish writing in setenv dontask y nand createbbt setenv bootcmd" on make qemu Jul 14 14:10:52 any ideas what might be wrong? Jul 14 14:10:52 * kristian-m once waas in a company where they where coding at the kernel in windows Jul 14 14:10:57 cesarb, well, maybe that can be solved like it is on other embedded devices: a neo-internal flashing utility Jul 14 14:11:10 half of my gps tools are win32 and i haven't got around to rewriting them for *nix Jul 14 14:11:31 ckuethe - "gps tools"? Jul 14 14:11:41 gps hacking is a hobby of mine Jul 14 14:11:54 ckuethe - What sort of hacking? Jul 14 14:12:08 so i have the SiRF, ublox, trimble and FastraX eval kits installed on my wkstn Jul 14 14:12:27 well, i'm one of the senior developers of gpsd, and a developer with openbsd Jul 14 14:12:39 ckuethe - ahh. :) Jul 14 14:12:49 the two new time servers at ualberta.ca use a couple of ublox antaris4 receivers Jul 14 14:13:01 serial + PPS to drive ntpd Jul 14 14:13:13 Building glibc2.5 seems to break: http://pastebin.com/d6b226b17 Jul 14 14:13:16 but the usb interface is available for me to grab raw data to do postprocessing Jul 14 14:13:33 i've got similar ambitions for my SiRF, trimble and itrax receivers Jul 14 14:13:34 Any way to work around this? Jul 14 14:13:53 ckuethe - One can get really raw data from sirf3s? Jul 14 14:13:58 yes and no Jul 14 14:13:58 cesarb: I've left a note on Harald's talk page - he added it. Jul 14 14:14:11 The whole page needs gone over by someone with schematics Jul 14 14:14:12 you get pseudorange, but carrier phase is a custom option Jul 14 14:14:20 you have to order a firmware that'll do that Jul 14 14:14:26 SpeedEvil: harald? isn't it better to let him rest? Jul 14 14:14:44 Well - it doesn't need updated now - or by him. Jul 14 14:14:45 SiRF seems to have realized that carrier phase is a value-add or something Jul 14 14:14:47 ckuethe - Ahh. I think, I saw the pseudoranges in the binary protocol. Jul 14 14:14:54 yep, message 28 Jul 14 14:14:55 But the number of peope with schematics are sharply limited. Jul 14 14:15:13 Carrier phase would be lovely. Jul 14 14:15:14 but to really be useful you also want carrier phase Jul 14 14:15:37 Yeah. Jul 14 14:15:41 and you don't get that from sirf3 unless you buy the expensive firmware Jul 14 14:15:55 But even integer carrier numbers from the HH would be fine. Jul 14 14:15:55 :-| Jul 14 14:16:01 thus my interest in trimble, ublox and itrax that don't screw you around Jul 14 14:16:36 I'm still stuck with the HH. Jul 14 14:17:15 Argh. Where are the icons? Jul 14 14:17:48 i'm not sure if the ordering site even took my order. Jul 14 14:18:05 i hit submit, and got a blank page back Jul 14 14:18:09 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Henrikw]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User_talk:HaraldWelte]] [[User:Joshki]] [[Openstreetmap]] [[Wish_List]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[BuggyOrders]] [[Main_Page]] [[Neo1973]] Jul 14 14:18:13 and no emails. Jul 14 14:18:17 ckuethe - You ordered a neo? Are you planning to also work on the HH? Jul 14 14:18:21 yep Jul 14 14:18:24 among other things Jul 14 14:18:52 ckuethe: what's the status of online ionospheric modules Jul 14 14:18:57 Freely available. Jul 14 14:18:59 ckuethe - Are you interested in connecting gllin to gpsd, or in decipherin the HH protocol? Jul 14 14:19:16 connecting gllin to gpsd is a couple of lines of script. Jul 14 14:19:19 SpeedEvil: there maybe be some useful code in gpstk Jul 14 14:19:36 ckuethe: no - I mean data - not code. Jul 14 14:19:52 and newer gpsd's can be driven from a file, a fifo or a device, so yes the interface there is easy Jul 14 14:19:53 err Jul 14 14:19:57 models, not models. Jul 14 14:20:03 models, not modules Jul 14 14:20:28 i don't know of anyone with an open, online ionospheric model Jul 14 14:20:29 Ycros: I know, people do what gets them the most attention. And people will get more attention for being the guy who got Quake to run on a phone than being the guy who brought the address book to stable. Jul 14 14:20:29 ckuethe - I hope you've seen sphyrna? Jul 14 14:20:39 the faa has some fluffy graphs up Jul 14 14:20:57 but i don't think those have nearly enough resolution to be useful Jul 14 14:21:06 ckuethe: I mean actual stuff that will enable you to compute corrections at any given position at any given time. Jul 14 14:21:13 'lo Jul 14 14:21:14 yes, i've see sphyrna. Jul 14 14:21:26 Okay. Jul 14 14:21:31 <-- off for some cake. Jul 14 14:22:06 I'm wondering if a user-contributed model, using multiple-many Neo - or other devices with accurate psuedorange reporting contributing to a global model is needed. Jul 14 14:22:34 also, RTCA DO-228A (IIRC) the signal-in-space isn't open... which means someone has to buy the spec Jul 14 14:23:00 I don't mean the WAAS corrections. Jul 14 14:23:08 just some generic model? Jul 14 14:23:17 I do have the RTCM spec Jul 14 14:23:35 I mean generating a model of the ionosphere as it is currently from all the stationary neos with a good view of the sky. Jul 14 14:23:48 s/neos/suitable GPS devices/ Jul 14 14:23:48 SpeedEvil meant: I mean generating a model of the ionosphere as it is currently from all the stationary suitable GPS devices with a good view of the sky. Jul 14 14:24:13 From everyone with a free net connection at the time. Jul 14 14:24:32 that's something else i've been wanting to do with gpsd, etc. Jul 14 14:24:39 matthew_, for some people it is, but I don't think it has to be about attention at all. I could simply be about solving their own problems. Jul 14 14:25:11 using devices with which we can get raw data, set up an open reference net Jul 14 14:26:31 And in principle - with enough users - it could be quite dense indeed. Jul 14 14:26:33 on a per-device basis, generating corrections doesn't seem to be that difficult. a number of high-end OEM boards can do it and they're only using ARM7 processors Jul 14 14:26:55 No, as I understand it it's pretty much trivial. Jul 14 14:27:09 so devices with well-knows positions, reporting back to a much more powerful collector could work Jul 14 14:27:13 Nearby recievers have constant amounts subtracted from the ranges to any given satellite. Jul 14 14:27:30 I'm not meaning known positions - I'm assuming unknown but stationary. Jul 14 14:27:52 yeah, you could do some sort of survey-in procedure Jul 14 14:28:06 Basically - user sticks phone into charging dock, and it contributes. Jul 14 14:28:12 If it's got a free net connection. Jul 14 14:28:26 after an hour, it contributes Jul 14 14:28:50 You need an hour - if you are trying to get all the possible data. Jul 14 14:29:06 SpeedEvil: wouldn't most charging docks be in places with poor reception? Jul 14 14:29:16 SpeedEvil: like, several meters from the window? Jul 14 14:29:19 you need 12 minutes if you are cold starting and need to get a full NAV message Jul 14 14:29:36 cesarb: the antaris4 can get a lock inside my office Jul 14 14:29:46 cesarb: maybe - it may not work well Jul 14 14:29:53 ckuethe: AGPS Jul 14 14:29:53 fully half the sky is obscured by the next building Jul 14 14:30:03 and there's metal all around me Jul 14 14:30:04 ckuethe: that's the other half of the equation. Jul 14 14:30:23 ckuethe: this server can also do AGPS calculations and supply ephemerigs and almanacs. Jul 14 14:31:16 it's my gut feeling that, to be really useful, an observer will have to be stationary long enough to run a precise point algorithm. only then will its contributions to a distributed error model be of any use Jul 14 14:31:49 otherwise you might be dealing with multipath from cars outside, or the cat in the window, or .... Jul 14 14:32:55 and there's metal all around me Jul 14 14:33:11 sorry I'm just reading Jul 14 14:33:22 I think that sounds about right. Im not sure how fast satellites move over the sky, but what if most of the sky is actually "distorted" in some location, such as having a big metal object in the way that is doing reflections Jul 14 14:33:40 you guys talking about OSM automation? Jul 14 14:33:44 sandos: from down here, they move up to 0.5deg /min Jul 14 14:33:50 dcordes: no Jul 14 14:33:53 ok Jul 14 14:33:57 dcordes: AGPS stuff Jul 14 14:34:04 what's that? Jul 14 14:34:12 i've got some fun graphs showing multipath Jul 14 14:34:18 ckuethe: it depends. Jul 14 14:34:18 SpeedEvil: I've seen claims thay AGPS can help in urban canyons. Is this only for locking or? Jul 14 14:34:28 I fail to see how it can ever affect reflections, for example Jul 14 14:34:33 ckuethe: what we really need is lots of data from a few thousand units. Jul 14 14:34:41 skyview is totally obscured, but there's this big, bright "reflected" patch Jul 14 14:34:50 disturbingly strong, too... Jul 14 14:34:58 Reflections are always delayed. Jul 14 14:35:01 is that an experimental setup or? Jul 14 14:35:10 In some cases you can use this to discard them. Jul 14 14:35:11 is it an actual real location :) Jul 14 14:35:39 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS Jul 14 14:36:20 ckuethe: then that will tell us the algorithms that can be used. It may even be practical to use mobile GPS. Jul 14 14:36:27 We need numbers! Jul 14 14:36:36 disturbing because after the reflection, the polarization would be reversed, and i'm supposed to get 3-5dB rejection of improperly polarized signals... and i was still getting 30+ db Jul 14 14:37:11 aha, and the polarization rejection is meant to dismiss reflections then? Jul 14 14:37:22 It doesn't work much. Jul 14 14:37:37 As recievers these days are sensitive enough to pick it up too. Jul 14 14:37:37 I can imagine that. Jul 14 14:38:07 but the hope is the receiver will prefer a strong, correctly polarized signal... on the grounds that it's not reflected Jul 14 14:38:20 though it might be reflected an even number of times. Jul 14 14:43:00 is GPS software plausible? Jul 14 14:43:17 sure Jul 14 14:43:24 easy? no. Jul 14 14:43:45 what hardware is necessary Jul 14 14:44:09 i'd prefer to have fully open gps software, but i'll use the blob until such time as replacement software is necessary Jul 14 14:44:19 my understanding is that all the bits are there already Jul 14 14:44:20 All right! Got the rootfs running now. Jul 14 14:44:54 the hammerhead does the correlations, and feeds a software receiver running on the main cpu Jul 14 14:45:26 does the moko OS have a normal linux file structure? Jul 14 14:45:34 not unlike most other receivers... it's just that they have a little arm7 built in as the main cpu Jul 14 14:45:56 i guess it would have to.. Jul 14 14:46:43 GPS would be nice but that sounds like a phase 3 or 4 thing. Jul 14 14:47:11 as i understand it, the hardware is there already, and navigation solutions are provided by a closed-source binary Jul 14 14:47:25 which then feeds gpsd Jul 14 14:47:53 runs on a daemon? Jul 14 14:47:58 sounds like a bad idea Jul 14 14:48:18 yep Jul 14 14:48:24 i don't think anyone likes it Jul 14 14:48:30 but that's the way it currently is Jul 14 14:48:46 which is why some people are figuring out how to fix that situation Jul 14 14:48:48 but. Jul 14 14:48:48 i'd rather not have to charge my phone twice a day, thank you very much ;) Jul 14 14:49:26 data protocol/format for the hammerhead will have to be reverse-engineered Jul 14 14:49:45 what do all these bits mean, and what knobs do i have to play with Jul 14 14:50:41 wouldn't it be easier to reverse-engineer the gllin binary? Jul 14 14:50:53 no doubt that will be part of the process Jul 14 14:50:55 that is, use the binary to figure out how the protocol works Jul 14 14:51:08 see my comment in the scrollback about IDApro under windows ;) Jul 14 14:51:50 insert random rant about NDA protocol specs here Jul 14 14:52:12 there is an itar issue as well ~_~ Jul 14 14:52:28 idjits at NemeriX tried to tell me their protocol was proprietary and contained valuable IP... as if. Jul 14 14:53:04 well from their perspective the protocol has value Jul 14 14:53:09 sure there are regulations to comply with Jul 14 14:53:14 since for anyone to use it you have to pay them Jul 14 14:53:36 no much value. SiRF, trimble, ublox and FastraX all have unencumbered documentation Jul 14 14:53:54 huh? Jul 14 14:54:00 ..are we talking about the same docs? Jul 14 14:54:04 protocol docs Jul 14 14:54:16 there's two possible protocols though Jul 14 14:54:28 this is what the chip outputs, this is what the fields mean, here's how to tune it to do this... Jul 14 14:54:32 depending on the intelligence of the gps chipset Jul 14 14:54:46 either position fixes or barely-processed if data Jul 14 14:55:17 position fixes are easy, almost any gps chipset with intelligence outputs NMEA Jul 14 14:55:29 The HH has no intelligence. Jul 14 14:55:31 i'm talking about the vendor protocols Jul 14 14:55:35 That's all in the gllin binary Jul 14 14:55:35 which is the problem D: Jul 14 14:55:46 * SpeedEvil has been away - cooking. Jul 14 14:55:54 the ones that give you carrier, doppler, clock, pseudo, ephem.... Jul 14 14:56:29 nearly every consumer SiRF receiver i ever bought came with a copy of the protocol reference Jul 14 14:56:47 every trimble receiver i ever bought came with a copy of the protocol reference (plus it's on the web) Jul 14 14:56:56 every ublox receiver i ever bought came with a copy of the protocol reference (plus it's on the web) Jul 14 14:57:17 ... they all have intelligence though Jul 14 14:57:22 my itrax receiver didn't come with a copy of the protocol reference but it's on the web Jul 14 14:57:53 yes, they're all kind of intelligent, but they still output raw data, and the vendor protocol is much nicer than NMEA Jul 14 14:57:57 I think the other half of the issue is that they may consider the IP in the gllin binary important. Jul 14 14:58:24 And knowing the docs of the HH would let you reverse engineer that. Jul 14 14:58:33 The AGPS bit could actually be quite complex. Jul 14 14:58:39 doubtful Jul 14 14:58:41 If it can in fact get a position in a second. Jul 14 14:59:19 what runs on-top of X.org as of right now? XDM? Jul 14 14:59:34 if i understand AGPS correctly, it's 2 things: preloading ephemeris, and rough solutions from the telco Jul 14 14:59:34 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol#Enhancements Jul 14 14:59:56 ckuethe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS Jul 14 15:00:01 there is a third thing Jul 14 15:00:23 The AGPS server has a good view of the sky. And lots of compute power. Jul 14 15:00:38 It knows the current nav messages being sent, ... Jul 14 15:00:38 and net. Jul 14 15:01:01 it's feasable for the carrier to do this... since they can treat it as management traffic Jul 14 15:01:03 This can enable it to give much more rapid positions than the device could alone. Jul 14 15:01:15 In principle - we can't do that though probably. Jul 14 15:01:25 The modem only gives us high level access. Jul 14 15:01:30 but if we had to have mokos talk to a network of servers, that would be lots of data $$$$ Jul 14 15:01:47 Not really. Jul 14 15:02:04 well, i saw the bandwidth estimates Jul 14 15:02:11 Once you get dense enough results in an area, you tell any new contributors no thanks. Jul 14 15:02:38 For what? Jul 14 15:02:53 downloading ephemeris, etc. Jul 14 15:02:59 ooh! point of interest Jul 14 15:03:21 You will almost never need to download ephemeris. Jul 14 15:03:22 IMO. Jul 14 15:03:34 Unless the GPS has been indoors for weeks. Jul 14 15:03:36 i saw a paper that said that a recently expired ephemeris is just as good (if not better) than an almanac Jul 14 15:03:41 hahaha xdm Jul 14 15:03:58 a whole world, an undiscovered country: the 1990s Jul 14 15:04:25 speed, you mean almanac? Jul 14 15:04:25 What you might need is immediate correction data - which will run some 256 bytes or under. Jul 14 15:04:30 you'll need to get an ephemeris if you haven't had a fix in a few hrs Jul 14 15:04:33 galexande: the 12.5K one. Jul 14 15:04:40 they're recalculated quite often Jul 14 15:04:40 * SpeedEvil gets the two mixed up. Jul 14 15:04:52 ephemeris = ephemeral = just for a moment Jul 14 15:04:54 the almanac is valid for a full week Jul 14 15:05:00 but degrades gracefully Jul 14 15:05:19 Say a million Neos. Jul 14 15:05:23 but if you keep the gps chipset powered down when you're not looking at its output, won't the almanac age out? Jul 14 15:05:28 No. Jul 14 15:05:38 The GPS chipset holds no data internally almost. Jul 14 15:05:40 and the ephemeris, being a better data set to start with, can be used in place of the almanac Jul 14 15:05:46 yeah, but it would never get updated.. Jul 14 15:05:54 The only benefit in keeping it semi-powered-up is to keep its own internal clock going. Jul 14 15:06:03 Which is a high accuracy one. Jul 14 15:06:10 my understanding is that that the hammerhead is just hardware correlators. helps pull the CDMA out of the sky Jul 14 15:06:13 It stores no data internally. Jul 14 15:06:17 ckuethe: pretty much. Jul 14 15:06:19 everything else has to be done onthe cpu Jul 14 15:06:20 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol#Enhancements Jul 14 15:06:31 i just hope there is a good way to get agpsd to do the right thing, and download the almanac/ephemeris automatically every now and then when i'm not paying attention Jul 14 15:06:42 from the satellites Jul 14 15:06:43 As I understand it - powering up for 1s every 3 mins or so - with a good view of the sky - should be fine. Jul 14 15:06:44 SpeedEvil: you guys have all the classic texts on software gps? Jul 14 15:06:44 galexande, the almanac doesn't age that quickly, though yes, it's useful to have it on sometimes if you don't get assist data Jul 14 15:06:59 yeah, i'm trying to avoid unnecessary gprs traffic Jul 14 15:07:03 To keep the clocks in line with the satellites. Jul 14 15:07:10 1-5s / 3-5min should keep the clock set properly Jul 14 15:07:21 You need to be within .3ms or so. Jul 14 15:07:34 To get the right edge of the satellites. Jul 14 15:07:48 edge of the chip sequence that is. Jul 14 15:07:50 I looked on the wiki, but couldn't find anything.. Is there a list of software projects that *must* get done before a v2 "production" release? Jul 14 15:08:02 Qwell: it's not been stated. Jul 14 15:08:02 ckuethe, i sure don't. if you could put a list of citations into http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS you would be a hero of some sort to me Jul 14 15:08:18 a full sirf ephemeris packet is 91 bytes Jul 14 15:08:28 qwell, no we can all decide that Jul 14 15:08:42 I've written this up - the requirements - in the AGPS page on the enhancements bit. Jul 14 15:08:45 probably in september we'll look at our phones and say "i wouldn't show this to my mom, let alone a customer" Jul 14 15:08:53 "because it's lacking a ___" Jul 14 15:08:58 Qwell - There is a meta bug for this. Jul 14 15:09:11 Elrond: happen to know the #? Jul 14 15:09:37 if I'm gonna write code, it might as well be something useful :) Jul 14 15:09:47 is there any news on shipping? Jul 14 15:09:47 MobileCat: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 14 15:10:01 a ublox ephemeris is 104B Jul 14 15:10:06 mobile, look they told us it will ship on the 16th at the soonest, and it is the 14th, so hold your horses Jul 14 15:10:33 Qwell - #341 Jul 14 15:10:36 ckuethe: some of the AGPS stuff - the 'remote station has better knowledge' can be computed with smart enough software. For example, instead of dumbly turning on the reciever and waiting for an ephimerides, you turn it on for 1s when you can predict the bitstream from all satellites, to keep synced to them. Jul 14 15:10:38 Elrond: thanks Jul 14 15:11:00 ckuethe: then occasionally turn on for long enough to get the ephemirides. Jul 14 15:11:14 i know.i'm justnot at a pc for 3days. just wonderin is all Jul 14 15:11:40 30s should be enough for the ephemeris Jul 14 15:11:41 MobileCat - no news on shipping. Jul 14 15:12:00 gotta go check my copy of ICD-GPS-200C for the transmission schedule Jul 14 15:12:07 yes - 30s is plenty. Battery power is finite, you want the thing off as much as you can unless the user has asked for live tracking. Jul 14 15:12:10 ta anyway. Jul 14 15:13:08 Well, all of this is very theoretical, as we don't understand enough of the protocol yet. Jul 14 15:13:15 for sure. like i say... gotta check the transmission schedule to see how often i need to listen for a new ephemeris, and the least amount to time i can listen to be sure i've got it Jul 14 15:13:17 Indeed. Jul 14 15:13:53 And gllin is not really good at this stuff. Jul 14 15:25:15 holy crap I'm eager for the dang thing to come Jul 14 15:31:32 ditto :) Jul 14 15:32:02 mickey|slides: hey Jul 14 15:56:55 ckuethe: use 2 letter upper case code in order page Jul 14 15:57:24 ? Jul 14 15:57:42 ckuethe: you said you got blank page when you tried to order Neo1973? Jul 14 15:58:02 yes Jul 14 15:58:31 ckuethe, he means for state Jul 14 15:58:44 ah Jul 14 15:58:49 i'll try that Jul 14 15:58:55 If you've had no email - as I understand it the current recommendation is to order again, and note the fact that this is a duplicate in the notes list Jul 14 15:59:15 order page probably should have: s/(uppercase in US)/(2 letter uppercase in US)/ Jul 14 15:59:37 so the microsoft coffee table does run linux? Jul 14 15:59:39 roh: can you do above change? Jul 14 16:00:04 SpeedEvil: well, getting blank page means nothing happened, its just 'error page' Jul 14 16:00:29 SpeedEvil: getting order accepted, but not getting automatic rt ticket reply -> could take even day before you get one Jul 14 16:01:04 SpeedEvil: so far I think "black page" -problem has been fixed when physical address has been fixed Jul 14 16:09:34 ah, good, this is not a micrrosoft coffee table, but rather a MERL coffee table Jul 14 16:10:13 Does it run linux? Jul 14 16:10:51 the merl diamondtouch is just a display Jul 14 16:10:58 so sure :) Jul 14 16:11:09 it looks like about 30" lcd with multitouch Jul 14 16:11:13 ckuethe: got order trough? Jul 14 16:11:31 s/tr/thr/ Jul 14 16:11:39 galexande: I did a little research on those things. The build-your-own "FTIR" tables are very interesting Jul 14 16:11:46 * ewanm89_laptop still to order neo :( Jul 14 16:11:53 if only i had a grand to blow on a 30" lcd :) Jul 14 16:12:47 ewanm89_laptop: can you clue me in as to what "s/tr/thr/" means? Jul 14 16:13:46 galexande: http://dundee.cs.queensu.ca/wiki/index.php/Building_a_Multi-Touch_Sensitive_Table Jul 14 16:13:51 substitute tr for thr, sed syntax ("man sed" for more). Jul 14 16:14:35 oh, that's clever Jul 14 16:14:56 ewanm89_laptop: ahh. I see it alot here. Clueless as to what it meant. Thanks! Jul 14 16:15:54 hmm.. "(uppercase in US)" disappeared from direct.openmoko.com page, I wonder if that means lower case is now automatically uppercased? Jul 14 16:16:26 also I wonder if it now works with full name instead of only 2 letter code? (for State) Jul 14 16:16:27 Jason1: It's our way of correcting errors, if it was the same person the bot (apt) actually does the substutution. Jul 14 16:16:32 s/tut/tit/ Jul 14 16:16:32 ewanm89_laptop meant: Jason1: It's our way of correcting errors, if it was the same person the bot (apt) actually does the substitution. Jul 14 16:16:40 see ^^ Jul 14 16:17:49 ewanm89_laptop: see, I don't make mistakes, sooo.... Jul 14 16:17:56 :) Jul 14 16:18:05 latest SH1_FAQ edit might interest you: http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=SH1_FAQ&diff=11797&oldid=11796 Jul 14 16:18:10 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Main_Page]] [[User:HaraldWelte]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Virginia]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] Jul 14 16:18:20 Jason1: You never make a typo? Jul 14 16:18:33 ewanm89_laptop: nope. never :) Jul 14 16:18:48 Then you must be a very clever bot. Jul 14 16:18:57 ewanm89_laptop: LOL Jul 14 16:19:12 ewan, you're talking to the guy with order #1820 Jul 14 16:19:14 i'd believe he doesn't make mistakes Jul 14 16:19:15 for example: "The first orders are due to be processed on Monday, July 16, 2007." Jul 14 16:19:21 ewanm89_laptop: Pretty cool stuff... Jul 14 16:19:34 sounds like they are in schedule Jul 14 16:20:04 * ewanm89_laptop doesn't have an order due to a lack of a credit/debit card. Jul 14 16:20:10 :( Jul 14 16:20:19 Do they accept paypal? Jul 14 16:20:23 having trouble finding a good bt 2.0edr class 1 usb thingie Jul 14 16:20:25 aloril: Where did you read that? Jul 14 16:20:49 happy, just buy 5 cheap ones of different brands, one of them is bound to work :) Jul 14 16:20:58 i can't even find cheap ones ;) Jul 14 16:20:59 Jason1: scroll a bit upwards (about latest SH1_FAQ edit ...) Jul 14 16:21:06 newegg only has a $28 kensington Jul 14 16:21:22 might have to go ebay Jul 14 16:22:32 this is also interesting, seems he is doing almost everything: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:HaraldWelte Jul 14 16:22:55 aloril: Excellent. Looks like I may have my device on Tuesday/Wednesday! Jul 14 16:22:55 awesome Jul 14 16:22:55 zzf dosen't have any bt 2 Jul 14 16:23:14 aloril: poor guy Jul 14 16:23:28 no wonder why he was cracking :( Jul 14 16:23:34 i didn't know he put up the webshop Jul 14 16:24:38 heh, when i pointed my girlfriend at the YES_I_DO email and said "this is what happens when kernel hackers run ecommerce" I didn't realize I wasn't exaggerating Jul 14 16:25:06 hehe Jul 14 16:25:42 maybe he couldn't put warning up initially.. that could annoy when you know not all customers might realize it Jul 14 16:26:11 i think he just doesn't have a clear vision of what the website ought to look at so he's just responding to a bunch of random pressures and visions from different directions Jul 14 16:26:42 happycube: and had to deal with all the bugs when we all started hitting it like crazy Jul 14 16:26:45 galexande: umm... maybe, but I think he would have made warning clear from start.. well I'm guessing of course Jul 14 16:26:59 any idea how long it takes to create devices which were ordered after the initial 1000 Jul 14 16:27:32 aloril, he probably had someone breathing down his shoulder to make it look official Jul 14 16:27:54 in fact, from teh look of it, he porbably had to use site design from a graphic artist, and didn't have any freedom in how it looked Jul 14 16:28:11 it's real easy to get boxed in a corner if you're doing professional website development and don't want to be Jul 14 16:28:25 Sup3rkiddo: hard to say. depends on when FIC authorizes the next batch. Maybe, they have already started building them... Jul 14 16:28:37 everything harald wants to say about the device he's already said in his blog, or on the wiki, or in source Jul 14 16:28:49 so the website is just so much bs between him and making openmoko Jul 14 16:29:06 faq Jul 14 16:29:06 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 14 16:29:13 Jason1, you dont talk to me :S...you hitting-refresh-once-every-1-second dude =) Jul 14 16:29:31 Sup3rkiddo: LOL Jul 14 16:29:33 Sup3rkiddo: see SH1_FAQ Jul 14 16:29:54 "Are there enough phones for the number of orders? Will FIC produce another GTA01 batch if needed? Of course. Please note that there is a lead time of four to six weeks. " Jul 14 16:30:20 Jason1, i bet you appended "1" to to your nick just to piss me off :P Jul 14 16:30:39 Sup3rkiddo: hehe Jul 14 16:30:51 aloril, oh dang i have to wait a month more than the other guys, and if it get stuck at customs..brrr Jul 14 16:31:23 should have been the 22nd order like me, superkiddo :) Jul 14 16:31:36 Sup3rkiddo: I don't know where that is counted, it could be counted from start of this week ... Jul 14 16:31:48 hmmm Jul 14 16:31:53 I wonder how FIC decided to build 1000 units. Seems like a shot in the dark. Kinda surprised that they have sold as many developer phones as they have... Jul 14 16:31:56 i bet they'll wait until they get some YES_I_DOs before they build more Jul 14 16:32:44 galexande, bah, actually i kinda put off the order and wanted to get the order number 1973, i under estimated it now my order is like some 1200th Jul 14 16:32:52 heheheheh Jul 14 16:33:00 galexande: The last thingthey want is a bunch of PH1 laying around when PH2 hits the streets Jul 14 16:33:25 jason, i'm not sure...i really think the gta01 at the $300 price point is the more attractive device if they were both offered simultaneously Jul 14 16:34:14 and the gta01s on ebay will produce more developers Jul 14 16:34:21 galexande: thats true, maybe wifi and the cpu+, etc isnt that much of a benifit Jul 14 16:35:09 i want an accelerometer though :( Jul 14 16:35:16 galexande: heck no, I am going to carry them both around with me. Ill put them all around my neck like Marti Gras beads Jul 14 16:35:23 hahahaha' Jul 14 16:37:34 heh, just got a reply from openmoko Jul 14 16:37:43 no record of my original order :) Jul 14 16:37:53 think I'll just wait for GTA02 now Jul 14 16:37:59 ewon :( that sucks Jul 14 16:38:10 *shrugs* Jul 14 16:38:25 doubt I'd get in on the 1st run of gta01 at this stage, and would be waiting ages Jul 14 16:39:32 ewon: There is quite a few people who haven't order yet. Jul 14 16:42:35 Jason1: I was not surprised, I predicted at least 10x of Buying_interest page Jul 14 16:43:28 aloril: Is anyone keeping track of RT #s anymore? What are we up to? Jul 14 16:43:52 * aloril thinks GTA01B_v04 should continue to be available being $150 cheaper, but ...I don't decide this ;-) Jul 14 16:44:09 Jason1: haven't seen any recent numbers Jul 14 16:44:34 aloril: just make the hardware free - problem solved :p Jul 14 16:44:43 well, the GTA01B_v04 should have been $350, so only $100 cheaper Jul 14 16:44:44 except for the whole losing money thing...that might not sit well with FIC :) Jul 14 16:44:51 anybody ordered today and can provide 2 first numbers from rt ticket? Jul 14 16:45:52 aloril: It was around 3500 a couple days ago, i recall Jul 14 16:46:22 Jason1: yes, but dunno how many new since that time, maybe few hundred? Jul 14 16:48:13 counter_msg (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 14 16:48:13 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 14 16:48:38 (updated with that SH1_FAQ edit) Jul 14 16:48:39 counter Jul 14 16:48:39 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 2 days 19:11:16 (2.799±1.0 days) (1739;246) Jul 14 16:50:44 erhm Jul 14 16:52:14 ewon: there will probably be a moderate number of people dropping out. Jul 14 17:08:07 hm, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile seems to tell you to wget the Makefile off a server called rwhitby.net, but it's down. Jul 14 17:18:55 orospakr: try http://www.johnkerry.plus.com/Makefile Jul 14 17:20:28 Kensan: thanks. :) Jul 14 17:20:35 why on earth isn't it on openmoko.org, though? Jul 14 17:26:51 All see this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1xXNoB3t8vM&mode=related&search= Jul 14 17:35:16 ewanm89_laptop: nice :) Jul 14 18:18:11 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Phase_1]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[Stylus_mount]] [[Removal_of_free_space]] [[General-purpose_buttons_%28side-mounted%29]] [[Extra_battery]] [[Talk:Extra_battery]] Jul 14 18:20:48 hmm... interesting: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Phase_1 Jul 14 18:21:59 interesting indeed Jul 14 18:27:26 * aloril wonders if you can take out 500mA from chargers like Jabra A110: http://electronics.pricegrabber.com/cell-phone-chargers/m/8336495/ Jul 14 18:27:57 Elrond: re bug 258. Thanks, it's indeed the right way do go. I just not updated the bug, sorry. Jul 14 18:28:02 What *I* wonder is if I can use my Razr charger with the neo Jul 14 18:28:31 without having to hand-enable the 500mA charge mode Jul 14 18:28:34 * stefan_schmidt is almost dead after arriving from .fr today. Up to GUADEC tomorrow. :( Jul 14 18:33:44 Elrond: ping? Jul 14 18:35:31 aloril: thanks for the tip. using the 2 letter abbreviation helps Jul 14 18:36:40 ckuethe: good, can you tell what were 2 first numbers of you order rt ticket? (just curious about number of orders, first number is #1820) Jul 14 18:37:14 why they didn't use "size=2 maxlength=2" in the field spec Jul 14 18:37:25 is beyond me Jul 14 18:38:08 ckuethe: maybe because its international page? Jul 14 18:39:07 if it's going to enforce a restriction, it should be a little more clear about it. Jul 14 18:44:43 I used my full city/state name (no abbreviations, mixed case) and it seemed to work fine... Jul 14 18:45:25 (but then, it's a "last-minute hack webshop" after all) Jul 14 18:46:48 how hard is it to lowercase $state and then look it up in %states2abbrev Jul 14 18:47:28 then you can write any of Alabama, Alberta or AB and it'll just work Jul 14 18:47:49 Jul 14 18:48:32 ckuethe: have you ever had to finish a website just before the deadline's up, after working on it for several months? Jul 14 18:48:48 ckuethe: you can't even *think* straight, much less do a correct UI Jul 14 18:49:04 ckuethe: it will fatally go live with several broken edges Jul 14 18:50:00 no, but i have had other "oh shit we needed this last week and we're losing money,etc!" projects Jul 14 18:50:31 so for all my whining, i'm still gleefully ordering a dev kit Jul 14 18:51:41 * cesarb can count at least three problems with the order form when it went live: they forgot to use cacert instead of a self-signed cert, they forgot the colour option, they forgot the YES_I_DO warning Jul 14 18:53:09 cesarb: not to mention that they under-estimated server load Jul 14 18:53:35 mr slashdot is nobody's friend Jul 14 18:53:44 Jason1: ah, but the server load was unavoidable. they probably already knew it would crash. Jul 14 18:54:02 Jason1: but designing for slashdot would be overkill 99% of the time Jul 14 18:54:16 Jason1: and the target users know what "slashdot effect" means and would wait, so no real loss Jul 14 18:54:22 true Jul 14 18:54:40 cesarb: You gotta have some sort of plan. THey lost the cart, email, the list, the wiki....just about everything Jul 14 18:55:07 Jason1: you mean "wait until the storm has passed" isn't a plan? ;-) Jul 14 18:55:28 cesarb: not in my mind. of course, that is typically how it ends up :) Jul 14 19:04:49 maybe there was simply very little time to do it? Jul 14 19:05:03 among all other stuff that needed to be done Jul 14 19:06:07 it looks like the admin got as /.'ed as the servers did Jul 14 19:08:57 dev version doesn't have 802.11g right? Jul 14 19:09:22 dennisharrison: No, only the october one has wifi. Jul 14 19:09:30 bummer Jul 14 19:09:51 I want one now, but don't have a valid reason until I can get at least wifi on it :) Jul 14 19:09:56 dennisharrison: setup bluetooth pan and pretend it's wifi ;-) Jul 14 19:10:32 i ordered a few wifi adapters at dealextreme - i wonder if they'll work ;) Jul 14 19:10:57 hm. are there bluetooth wifi adaptors? Jul 14 19:11:04 cesarb, true, but my main reason to join in on the dev is to get this thing working in call center environs Jul 14 19:11:17 no - if you have a linux server of some sort you can set up a bridge though Jul 14 19:11:24 cjb, I have not seen a specific device for that, but certainly you could work something out Jul 14 19:11:31 surprising. Jul 14 19:11:54 cjb, well, I happen to think bluetooth should be replaced by wifi in almost every instance Jul 14 19:12:05 it could even just be a gumstix board running Linux or something. Jul 14 19:12:29 but that goes into a whole other train of thought that would bring us right back around to ipv stuff Jul 14 19:12:29 with bluetooth and wifi radios, and a jog dial for choosing SESID. Jul 14 19:12:31 dennisharrison: isn't the whole advantage of bluetooth that it's low power? (compared to wifi) Jul 14 19:12:43 cesarb, yes that is a complete and total advantage Jul 14 19:13:30 but I think the technical advantages of 802.11* far outstripe that Jul 14 19:14:12 http://www.blueunplugged.com/p.aspx?p=105816 looks ideal but discontinued. Jul 14 19:14:14 cjb, you could even use a modified buffalo with the optional cf slot and bluetooth adapter and load *wrt on it and get away with what you want Jul 14 19:14:32 dennisharrison: well, I'd want something that can be carried around with the Neo, ie. no bigger than it Jul 14 19:14:44 Neo in one pocket, bridge from bt to wifi in the other. Jul 14 19:14:51 :) Jul 14 19:14:57 thats a lot of 'hot pantsing' Jul 14 19:15:23 well, yeah I would rather have it all on the phone :) Jul 14 19:15:27 cjb, there was a thought of that with Seagate's BT/Wifi HDs, if they could be hacked to do that Jul 14 19:15:46 that train of thought is pretty dormant though Jul 14 19:16:14 mjr, seagate has a wifi and bt on one hdd enclosure thats that small? Jul 14 19:16:18 sounds really cool Jul 14 19:16:25 seems like an obvious win to me; everyone's phone has bluetooth, almost no-one's phone has wifi. Jul 14 19:16:41 even free phones have bt now Jul 14 19:16:42 http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/30/seagate-unveils-d-a-v-e-drive-with-bluetooth-and-wifi/ Jul 14 19:16:44 well, some Jul 14 19:16:48 cjb, I bet you see wifi on more and more phones Jul 14 19:16:56 yes. Jul 14 19:17:35 mjr: why would you think they could be hacked? Jul 14 19:17:42 it doesn't look like it runs Linux or anything. Jul 14 19:18:01 cjb, but depending on the chipset of the attached devices it could Jul 14 19:18:33 Woot! Got bitbake working up a storm finally. Jul 14 19:18:44 Stupid source for the 'file' package is down. Jul 14 19:19:39 Aria: want a copy? Jul 14 19:19:41 cjb, they touted open development platform etc, without being spesific, hence the speculation Jul 14 19:19:55 mjr: ah, interesting. Jul 14 19:20:02 Got a copy. My distro has a distfiles server with md5-verified copies of everything. Jul 14 19:20:13 mjr, cjb it could be done anyway Jul 14 19:20:17 I wish OE could use it automatically. Jul 14 19:20:20 apparently seagate's page is at http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/consumer_electronics/DAVE/ Jul 14 19:20:25 Aria: parhaps it can... Jul 14 19:20:32 With enough hacking, sure Jul 14 19:20:37 Aria: I think it has some "falback mirrors" thingy already Jul 14 19:20:42 Mmm. Jul 14 19:20:50 Aria: you would just have to add your distro's own Jul 14 19:20:58 Aria: (lemme guess: gentoo...) Jul 14 19:21:19 PLD Jul 14 19:21:27 ;-) Jul 14 19:22:15 Like Debian anal-retentiveness + RPM strictness - Redhat insanity + gentoo's good ideas + build system that works easily Jul 14 19:22:24 Aria: "The subject of this article may not satisfy the notability guideline..." Jul 14 19:22:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLD_Linux_Distribution Jul 14 19:22:43 Heh. Jul 14 19:22:47 not much about dave there still Jul 14 19:22:50 Aria: It's based on portage :) Jul 14 19:22:51 so anyone gotten ruby running on the neo1973? I know it can be cross-compiled for arm pretty easily, right...they were doing it on the zaurus Jul 14 19:23:31 I've not, jadams, but I will be ;-) Jul 14 19:23:48 jadams: I aven't tried in the emu yet, I was working on multiuser support first. Jul 14 19:23:59 s/av/hav/ Jul 14 19:24:00 ewanm89_laptop meant: jadams: I haven't tried in the emu yet, I was working on multiuser support first. Jul 14 19:24:15 someone already has Ruby running Jul 14 19:24:40 Is it in openembedded tree? Jul 14 19:25:24 :) it is, so. Jul 14 19:29:52 * Oizo`Away s'absente : sorti Jul 14 19:30:35 Kero: great news. I only have the emu installed at the office, and I'm not going in this weekend, so... Jul 14 19:30:45 guess I'll try out rails or camping on it soon enough Jul 14 19:31:05 Well it's fetching ruby now. Jul 14 19:31:16 I've had this address book written in rails for a long time that I had no use for Jul 14 19:31:24 I can hook it up to the phone in a heartbeat I bet though Jul 14 19:31:37 Is it gtk? Jul 14 19:31:44 xhtml/css Jul 14 19:31:58 w/ microformats and the like Jul 14 19:32:05 what browsers run on the neo? Jul 14 19:32:12 Um, so it's server side? Jul 14 19:32:25 I would run the server on the phone Jul 14 19:32:27 and hit it locally Jul 14 19:32:28 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 14 19:32:34 oh yeah, heh Jul 14 19:32:37 jadams: firefox, ... Jul 14 19:33:42 awesome Jul 14 19:33:56 SpeedEvil: I don't think the phone has enough memory for firefox ;-) Jul 14 19:33:56 It's not really decided. Jul 14 19:34:03 Yes, ff will run. Jul 14 19:34:18 what's not really decided? Jul 14 19:34:24 browser. Jul 14 19:34:34 cesarb: yes, it does. Jul 14 19:34:58 cesarb: I'm running FF ATM. And have 128M on this box. Jul 14 19:35:13 With about 16 open tabs Jul 14 19:35:30 SpeedEvil: ah, but you have a swap file/partition, don't you? Jul 14 19:35:34 SpeedEvil: the neo doesn't... Jul 14 19:35:38 SD Jul 14 19:35:54 It's not constantly swapping Jul 14 19:35:59 * cesarb looks at his firefox: 600M VSZ, 128M RSS... Jul 14 19:36:15 jadams: Surely it'll need a sever then. so ruby on openmoko is less relevant. Jul 14 19:36:20 And that's not counting the X server (which is where firefox stores the images) Jul 14 19:36:26 And here I'm swapping to AES loopback on PII/300 - so the speed is prolly comparable. Jul 14 19:36:53 cesarb: I'm just saying it works for me. And it'll probably work on the neo. Jul 14 19:36:56 ewanm89_laptop: meh, ruby on openmoko is very relevant Jul 14 19:37:01 It will probably not be optional. Jul 14 19:37:12 I'll be able to get tons of tiny software I'll want up if ruby's running Jul 14 19:37:43 Well it's compiling ruby now. Jul 14 19:37:46 but more importantly, I think I'd be able to run a local rails server Jul 14 19:38:04 because my rails apps typically take no cpu and tiny memory Jul 14 19:38:08 get rails running on it, and get a free pass to railsconf :p Jul 14 19:38:20 I'll be doing my darnedest from day 1 Jul 14 19:38:27 I'm a rails developer primarily :) Jul 14 19:38:31 Would sudo and user managment be optional? Jul 14 19:38:32 and we've got big plans for these suckers Jul 14 19:38:37 jadams: no douby Jul 14 19:38:39 doubt too Jul 14 19:39:02 when I stop being lazy, I've got something I want to (properly) port to it Jul 14 19:39:25 PBX *on* your phone...oh yeah Jul 14 19:39:46 Qwell: yeah, that's been a dream of mine as well :) Jul 14 19:40:00 I'm going to run such a freaking high wireless bill, geez Jul 14 19:40:01 jadams: well, being an Asterisk dev...it'll be a bit easier for me :) Jul 14 19:40:06 I'm frightened :-\ Jul 14 19:40:18 I'm used to unlimited internet (was on amp'd...still am, but they're bankrupt, so...) Jul 14 19:40:45 hrm Jul 14 19:41:31 I've just got to get a phone running on my amp'd account that can tether via usb so I can take advantage of the high speed unlimited internet from the neo Jul 14 19:42:24 Is amp'd decently fast? They've still got a year or so yet, don't they? Jul 14 19:43:48 amp'd is fast enough...when I had my home server up (moved six months ago, haven't bothered to fix a few failed bits o' hardware) I had a streaming site set up I could visit to listen to my music Jul 14 19:44:18 I never got it working properly, but my phone and my buddy's htc both could stream the music Jul 14 19:44:51 which is all I really need...not like I'm sending huge bits of data down the wire via svn, which is what the internet's for afaic :) Jul 14 19:45:18 I have to get a good bluetooth keyboard that works with this phone double fast quick Jul 14 19:46:13 jadams: wouldn't any bluetooth keyboard which works with linux work with the neo? Jul 14 19:46:32 That's the idea. Jul 14 19:47:08 yeah, I've just been operating under the 'tons of stuff will be broken at first' assumption Jul 14 19:47:12 I figure it'll make me less sad Jul 14 19:47:33 Me too. Jul 14 19:47:49 hey, I was just told ruby's already running on it...gimme ruby and vim and that's really all I wanted ANYWAY Jul 14 19:48:02 add the bluetooth keyboard, and I'm floating Jul 14 19:49:02 holy crap synaesthesia's in the repository...anyone ran it in the emulator? Jul 14 19:49:21 Well I'll test ruby in a sec. Jul 14 19:49:57 awesome... Jul 14 19:50:29 ;oading emu atm Jul 14 19:50:49 s/:/l/ Jul 14 19:50:55 s/;/l/ Jul 14 19:50:56 btw, (ruby) gems does not run in 128 MB of RAM Jul 14 19:51:29 Um, that could be a problem. Jul 14 19:52:23 Reasons_gems_suck << that Jul 14 19:52:33 Given enough swap... :) Jul 14 19:52:36 ha Jul 14 19:52:55 that's awful Jul 14 19:53:44 kero: you mean simply the gem command? I know I have ruby apps that use gems that run way under of course :) Jul 14 19:53:53 and I can handle swap on gem install Jul 14 19:54:50 jadams: yeah. individual gems run fine, of course Jul 14 19:55:14 Kero: :) so non-issue, sorta Jul 14 19:55:26 worst case, copy-paste into the expected structure :) Jul 14 19:55:29 * Kero is busy installing an image for his little server Jul 14 19:55:35 how little? Jul 14 19:55:43 which has 128 MB of RAM, which incidentally is the same as qemu uses by default Jul 14 19:56:01 "booksize"-little (and low-power) Jul 14 19:56:30 So no apache? Jul 14 19:56:51 mongrel :) Jul 14 19:56:57 does mongrel run on it? Jul 14 19:57:07 no problem Jul 14 19:57:10 awesome Jul 14 19:57:32 I'm seeing that I'll be less disappointed with this phone than sean moss-pulitz and co. feared Jul 14 19:57:43 actually, I'm about to leave this channel and install the image Jul 14 19:57:57 after that I'll show the site, perhaps. Jul 14 19:59:35 irb works :) Jul 14 19:59:45 OWN! Jul 14 19:59:57 that's it then, it's officially the best phone I'll have ever had Jul 14 20:00:08 in some sense other than the freedom one :) Jul 14 20:00:32 it's related :) Jul 14 20:00:41 obv :) Jul 14 20:00:41 *because* the phone is free, you can install Ruby :) Jul 14 20:00:52 and yes, I'll do the very same Jul 14 20:01:05 ttyl, after reinstalling Jul 14 20:01:49 I'm creating a most devs want patchset hee, atm :) Jul 14 20:04:02 hmm. Are people in here running an emulator or? Devices couldnt possibly have arrived yet, right? :) Jul 14 20:04:57 100ish people have devices. Jul 14 20:05:01 Of various sorts. Jul 14 20:05:10 of the hardware versions released in the past Jul 14 20:05:17 and the testhardware for this version Jul 14 20:05:19 emu. Jul 14 20:05:39 Of those 100 - maybe a dozen are activeish in this channel. Jul 14 20:07:52 ok Jul 14 20:10:35 * ewanm89_laptop doesn't have credit card for hardware :( Jul 14 20:11:32 They plan to add money transfers in the near future Jul 14 20:12:03 Um, but I want hardware now? Jul 14 20:12:24 Can anyone help me setup the qemu environment? It keeps telling me I need SDL or Cocoa, but libsdl is installed (ubuntu fiesty) Jul 14 20:12:33 uplinked: libsdl-dev? Jul 14 20:12:52 Qwell, that may be it, thanks! Jul 14 20:14:37 So, how do I convince my wife that we can't afford a Sidekick, and also convince her that I need a Neo? :p Jul 14 20:14:50 ewanm89_laptop: do like I did: ask a friend to use their credit card, and do a money transfer to him when it's all confirmed Jul 14 20:15:40 ewanm89_laptop: you lose the ability to pay later, and your friend temporarily has more money, which could be to his advantage Jul 14 20:15:51 is it me, or is the source tree like the coolest layout ever. Jul 14 20:16:00 bkruse_home: just you Jul 14 20:16:13 ewanm89_laptop: Make you a paper Neo doll: Jul 14 20:16:13 http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/2/27/Neo1973-doll.pdf Jul 14 20:16:13 :) It can keep you company while you wait. Simply print it out, cut it out, and tape it together :) Jul 14 20:16:14 Qwell: ahh, figured. after looking at ours for so long :P Jul 14 20:16:19 :p Jul 14 20:16:28 counter? Jul 14 20:16:28 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 2 days 15:43:26 (2.655±1.0 days) (1740;246) Jul 14 20:16:30 darn. Jul 14 20:16:51 it didn't magically be the 16th Jul 14 20:18:51 I think 16th was simply someones guess. Jul 14 20:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:GPS_Navigation]] [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Toronto]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Application_UI_Design_Recommendations]] [[UI_Improvements]] Jul 14 20:18:58 Was it actually official anywhere? Jul 14 20:19:31 SpeedEvil: Harold updated the wiki today with it... Jul 14 20:19:51 uplinked: did you get qemu working? Jul 14 20:20:11 SpeedEvil: they estimated it while the neos were in customs. should be pretty accurate as to the time for getting to the USA center, if nothing goes wrong. Jul 14 20:20:19 gcb77, it's building properly now, yep Jul 14 20:20:36 SpeedEvil: (after all, usually you can calculate trip times with some certainty) Jul 14 20:20:42 * CM borked PAM on gentoo and is now installing from scratch Jul 14 20:20:46 ewanm89_laptop: can you see synaesthesia in the package manager? I see it in the openmoko oe repository, was curious how difficult installing ipkg files was Jul 14 20:20:59 cm :( that sucks Jul 14 20:21:38 Jason1: Yes, definitely. I installed a new gforce, tv card and a new 500gb hd, and when I rebooted I couldn't log on. Jul 14 20:22:04 Jason1: Realized it was easier to just install a new root on the new disk and mount the others to it later Jul 14 20:22:23 CM: ouch! Jul 14 20:22:45 CM: tvcard, eh? You into MythTV? Jul 14 20:22:57 Jason1: Starting from today I am :D Jul 14 20:22:59 scratch that- i'm getting errors about ppmtorbg3 and pngtopnm not existing; they don't show up in the ubuntu repository, should i manually search-and-install, or is there an automated way? Jul 14 20:23:17 CM: awesome. Love it. Been using myth since v .15 era Jul 14 20:23:23 jadams: Just create a patch that adds it to tasks/task-openmoko and increase th PR value by one (using quilt), then run "make update all". Jul 14 20:23:43 Jason1: Ah, sweet. That's why I bought the tv card and the 500gb disk.. Only had 1gb left on my raid1 drives Jul 14 20:24:09 Then you probably want to reflash your qemu image, and installed. Jul 14 20:24:16 CM: I wanna start playing with HD, but that would require a bunch of new hardware for me. Jul 14 20:24:44 uplinked: sudo apt-get install libpng netpbm Jul 14 20:24:50 Jason1: I have a 42" samsung plasma and that's why I bought the new gforce7600.. ;) Jul 14 20:24:52 CM: I am a little worried about hte whole Zap2It mess Jul 14 20:25:01 gcb77, awesome, thanks Jul 14 20:25:18 * CM is ignorant of that mess and sorry for being slighty off topic here Jul 14 20:25:21 CM: sweet Jul 14 20:28:51 cm :standby. registering Jul 14 20:31:13 sweet, qemu is running Jul 14 20:33:37 uplinked: totally Jul 14 20:33:40 qemu rocks Jul 14 20:33:54 anyone get ssh to qemu working? Jul 14 20:37:12 Not in qemu, it's a usbgadget fs problem. Jul 14 20:39:23 ok, silly question i'm sure, but how do i enter numbers and letters in qemu? like, i'm in the text message page, but i can't find a keyboard or anything Jul 14 20:40:20 uplinked: Do you have a little grey rectangle to the right of the ("start") menu. Jul 14 20:40:25 s/./?/ Jul 14 20:40:26 ewanm89_laptop meant: uplinked: Do you have a little grey rectangle to the right of the ("start") menu? Jul 14 20:41:01 err, hold up, just lost the menu, but i don't believe i did Jul 14 20:41:33 Hit full screen in term or something? Jul 14 20:41:54 heh, nope, just closed everything in the task manager :P back now Jul 14 20:42:06 lol Jul 14 20:42:20 ahh, rectangle did it Jul 14 20:42:22 Do you have the grey box? Jul 14 20:42:30 that.. uhh... might need to be labeled Jul 14 20:42:37 right hand side changes keyboard typ. Jul 14 20:42:47 s/typ/type/ Jul 14 20:43:00 ewanm89_laptop meant: right hand side changes keyboard type. Jul 14 20:43:05 nice, thanks Jul 14 20:43:20 uplinked: The themers still have loads to do. Jul 14 20:43:45 gotcha Jul 14 20:43:45 It is a missing image, I think :/ Jul 14 20:44:23 And there is a bug so it doesn't always come up at all. Jul 14 20:48:16 uplinked: Like it? Jul 14 20:48:48 it's neat. text input's not quite intuitive, imo, but i'd need to play around with the actual hardware to say for sure Jul 14 20:49:30 uplinked: exactly Jul 14 20:49:36 uplinked: Text input is only a tempory app. Jul 14 20:49:55 * ewanm89_laptop would like to at least order hardware :( Jul 14 20:50:08 heh Jul 14 20:50:19 i might wind up contributing, once my current contract is up Jul 14 20:50:29 kind of working with a conflict of interests right now :-p Jul 14 20:51:09 * ewanm89_laptop doesn't have commitments, but does have parents that won't let him use the credit card. Jul 14 20:51:37 * ewanm89_laptop hopefully will get hiss own card soon though. Jul 14 20:51:52 paypal.com Jul 14 20:52:02 Do they accept paypal? Jul 14 20:52:02 you can get virtual credit cards :) Jul 14 20:52:29 not necessary, paypal will generate you a cc number & full details Jul 14 20:52:35 Nice. Jul 14 20:52:37 and any charges made just come out of your paypal account Jul 14 20:53:30 I have that feature at my internet bank :) Jul 14 20:53:51 It's very nice Jul 14 20:54:36 mmm, task manager is kind of tragic, IMO. apps shouldn't be able to launch multiple instances Jul 14 20:54:58 Use the source uplinked! Jul 14 20:55:11 In some cases it might make sense. Jul 14 20:55:18 Opening multiple documents. Jul 14 20:55:39 Ends up as switching documents in the app or in the task manager Jul 14 20:55:58 uplinked: i guess thats true, just make them multi-threaded, but SpeedEvil has a point Jul 14 20:55:59 and switching in the app tends to imply wasted screen area in the app. Jul 14 20:56:12 personal pref. would be to switch within the app, but i see what you mean Jul 14 20:56:24 With a 2.8" screen - things change. Jul 14 20:56:40 And some devices will be QVGA, or perhaps even smaller. Jul 14 20:56:43 *nods* Jul 14 20:57:30 There should probably be a user option for each, that can be set. Jul 14 20:57:53 'Opening a new notepad closes previous document'... Jul 14 20:58:33 that'd work. i'd say some apps don't even need the option- for instance, it's hard to imagine a time when you'll need two dialers Jul 14 20:58:47 Multiple numbering it might make sense. Jul 14 20:59:05 But that isn't real common. Jul 14 20:59:18 Or one shoujld give up switching apps and switch tasks. Jul 14 20:59:26 "Dialer" "doc A" "Doc B" Jul 14 20:59:32 Yeah Jul 14 20:59:47 Icon "Doc A" Jul 14 20:59:51 prolly makes more sense than Jul 14 20:59:59 Notepad Jul 14 21:00:17 I don't know how the current task manager shows tasks. Jul 14 21:00:40 * SpeedEvil is concentrating on hardware ATM. Jul 14 21:01:23 Eh... well, keeping in mind that this is my first day here, I'd say that rather than leaving things like "multi numbering" available, the dialer should be single threaded, and if someone needs two dialers, they're likely an "advanced user" and should download a patch Jul 14 21:01:52 s/threaded/instanced/ Jul 14 21:01:52 I'd disagree - about patches. Jul 14 21:02:06 There should be no real need to have other than a config switch. Jul 14 21:02:07 uplinked meant: Eh... well, keeping in mind that this is my first day here, I'd say that rather than leaving things like "multi numbering" available, the dialer should be single instanced, and if someone needs two dialers, they're likely an "advanced user" and should dow... Jul 14 21:03:00 I can see how that's a legitimate concern, but again, 2.8" VGA screen- how many options do you REALLY want to expose on the phone? Jul 14 21:03:10 You don't expose it in the app. Jul 14 21:03:18 You expose it in the apps config options. Jul 14 21:03:28 I agree Jul 14 21:03:37 Or possibly the task managers config options. Jul 14 21:03:44 Some apps should always start a new session when you start, some never Jul 14 21:03:50 You can control that via dbus Jul 14 21:03:51 That doesn't mean that Config can't get out of hand. How many config entries is "managable"? 200? 500? 1000? Jul 14 21:03:55 like the gnomies do Jul 14 21:04:08 uplinked: thousands in principle. Jul 14 21:04:30 uplinked: just need to be logically searchable or changable. Jul 14 21:04:40 Consider FF about:config forex Jul 14 21:04:45 in practice, you forget/cant find that option you wanted Jul 14 21:05:30 OK, but is Young Sebastian going to have to use about:config to change basic options? Jul 14 21:05:52 I rather hope there's not that many options. Firefox has so many settings that should just be LEFT ALONE, hard coded and removed as options. Jul 14 21:07:25 Aria: there's that gnome philosophy linus dislikes so, coming out Jul 14 21:08:24 hmm? Jul 14 21:08:28 Indeed it is. Jul 14 21:08:31 Best solution, IMO: Advanced options are still there, they're just harder to find. Devs/Powerusers will find them, change them, etc, but at the same time, I can't help but feel like the phone should be mom-and-pop friendly Jul 14 21:08:32 Hence my using most things gnomey Jul 14 21:08:58 I'm kind of surprised the task manager is so forwardly exposed, at that. Jul 14 21:09:01 uplinked: Paypal no good as it requires direct debit which isn't available on my account. Jul 14 21:09:15 Aria: determining which ones of these should never ever be changed at writing time is hard though. Jul 14 21:09:23 (Again, all said with the context that I have no place to critique what I have less than 2 hours experience with) Jul 14 21:09:25 uplinked: I agree. My mom can change startpage in the settings for FF, but she'll never find about:config Jul 14 21:09:34 Aria: especially as if you _do_ need to change them, it's _much_much_much_ harder if there isn't an option. Jul 14 21:09:49 SpeedEvil: if they complicate your codebase without not pessiming, perhaps you shouldn't. Jul 14 21:10:01 There is that. Jul 14 21:10:25 If they make the code nasty, and you can't think why they should be changed, sure, delete them. If they are 'free' - or nearly so, leave them. Jul 14 21:10:39 SpeedEvil, who's the customer here? Right now, it's devs, but I was of the understanding that "everyone" should want a phase 2 device Jul 14 21:11:01 uplinked: I'm not disagreeing - normal users would never see this interface. Jul 14 21:11:40 Even as a dev, I'm scared of buying the phone right now just on the premise that I spend all day on the computer, and when I get a call, I want to answer the phone, not wrestle with config files on linux-in-my-pocket. Jul 14 21:11:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#User_Profiles Jul 14 21:12:53 uplinked: Jul 14 21:13:18 SpeedEvil: Indeed. But better still is figuring out what's needed and then doing that. Jul 14 21:13:23 Oe Or devs would never see the interface unless they intentioanlly launch it. Jul 14 21:14:30 Being able to change stuff on the fly without recompiling, where it is practical is a good thing. Of course this should not get in the way of normal use. Jul 14 21:14:42 SpeedEvil, Seems like the preferences are a good way to limit/add feature usage for individual users Jul 14 21:14:49 err, the profiles, rather Jul 14 21:14:51 Yeah. Jul 14 21:15:05 I guess my concern is just a little more general than that, though Jul 14 21:15:08 Maybe even a 'guest' profile - for anyone who picks up the phone. Jul 14 21:15:31 Though that would have to be optional. Jul 14 21:15:46 more options :) Jul 14 21:15:49 I could see cases where I'd like to give my phone to someone, to play games with. Jul 14 21:16:05 But I don't want them doing anything risky. Jul 14 21:16:11 yeah Jul 14 21:16:19 I'd want to be able to change logged in users :) Jul 14 21:16:21 SpeedEvil: What about a "You're a moron"-profile if you type in the wrong pin trying to unlock it :D Jul 14 21:16:30 heh, i operate on the premise, "if i trust you not to run off with my $300 phone, i trust you not to change my background to a penis" Jul 14 21:16:37 ;) Jul 14 21:16:42 uplinked: we would not make good friends it seems Jul 14 21:16:49 hahaha i don't have any friends i trust that much Jul 14 21:16:59 but i'd let them use my phone without hesitation :) Jul 14 21:17:01 uplinked: You should be glad it's doesn't have a camera if you have friends like that ;) Jul 14 21:17:39 I guess my worry for the openMoko platform is that it seems to be a phone by-linux-users,for-linux-users Jul 14 21:17:44 uplinked: consider giving it to a 12 year old who's bored in the back of your car. Jul 14 21:18:01 But not actually destructive. Jul 14 21:18:39 Many 12 year olds have poorly developed morals, and wouldn't hesitate to look through your messages. Jul 14 21:18:55 Though I wish I could say that almost all adults wouldn't. Jul 14 21:19:09 I work with hundreds of user experience experts a day, and I'm constantly bitched-at about "Joe User" and "Young Sebastian", and it feels like the openmoko approach, from the ground up, seems to target "IT Guy Jim" Jul 14 21:21:13 IMO. Jul 14 21:21:16 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 14 21:21:27 Polish can happen later. Jul 14 21:21:35 it's not polish that concerns me Jul 14 21:21:42 Entire reimplimentation of the whole user interface can happen later. Jul 14 21:21:48 :) Jul 14 21:21:50 and maybe what concerns me isn't really worth discussing in this channel Jul 14 21:22:09 I would expect and hope for things to get better soon. Jul 14 21:22:22 If they don't, I predict at least some forked stuff. Jul 14 21:22:35 Yeah, polish not that important right know, and I should know, I'm from poland ;) Jul 14 21:22:36 exactly, that was my next point Jul 14 21:22:42 Don't like it, buy the hardware and fork off. Jul 14 21:22:52 * mmazur just wondering how long will it take to get working gprs-to-my-notebook Jul 14 21:23:09 You mean using it as a modem? Jul 14 21:23:15 well, if profit is a goal, i think it'll be more of "copy the hardware, reproduce it, market your own implementation" Jul 14 21:23:17 that shouldn't really be hard Jul 14 21:23:37 uplinked: OM != FIC != Neo1973 Jul 14 21:23:50 They _hope_ that lots of people will make phones. Jul 14 21:23:50 true Jul 14 21:23:59 SpeedEvil: I agre with you, redesigning the UI shouldnt be a huge undertaking, especially considering that making things easier mostly should come to removing stuff Jul 14 21:24:12 Because if that happens, and they all run openmoko, that basically means that FIC are now on a par with Nokia. Jul 14 21:24:21 one can probably script the Neo to provide gprs to a laptop in 10 minutes or something, going the quick'n'dirty way Jul 14 21:24:31 all i'm saying is that anyone that wants to target my granny should probably sell phones with their branched, dumbed down OS preloaded :) Jul 14 21:24:34 Instead of the lowest bidding contractor of 5 making a nokia phone. Jul 14 21:25:03 Personally. I suspect your granny might well prefer a nokia 1100 with large buttons Jul 14 21:25:48 well, all things considered, my granny's dead, too, i just meant in general :P Jul 14 21:26:14 With the accelerometers, we should be able to implement sensitive table-shaking detection. Jul 14 21:26:52 i'm real interested in seeing what happens when someone combines the GPS with the accelerometers Jul 14 21:26:59 i don't even know what kinds of things you could do with that Jul 14 21:27:16 but i'm sure someone will get creative Jul 14 21:27:18 * CM just wants to shake his mp3-playlist ;) Jul 14 21:27:18 Basically little. Jul 14 21:27:57 And I even wrote http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals on the topic Jul 14 21:27:58 orientation sensing and lightsabers, I don't want much... Jul 14 21:28:15 "You're at Chicago O'Hare, moving at 500 miles per hour. Phone powering down." Jul 14 21:28:17 Bascally, you can detect which way down is. Jul 14 21:28:19 Little more. Jul 14 21:28:24 ahh Jul 14 21:28:30 think i read that a while back Jul 14 21:37:45 ja? Jul 14 21:38:08 ??? haha :D Jul 14 21:38:33 gg hi Husare Jul 14 21:38:44 hi sixfeet Jul 14 21:39:06 hatte mich wer gehigh-lighted .. daher Jul 14 21:39:40 hehe...ich dachte das wäre ein englischsprachiger channel? Jul 14 21:43:27 Husar(e) - Eigentlich ist esein englischsprachiger Channel, ja. ;-) Jul 14 21:43:33 Hi koe Jul 14 21:43:34 Hi koen Jul 14 21:45:24 Elrond, tut me sorry ;) Jul 14 21:48:00 huh, neo just crashed... strange. Jul 14 21:51:02 Does anyone know how openmoko is going to handle sending/receiving of text messages? I would assume that the GSM daemon would be doing the actual work, but how will gsmd talk to the other apps? Dbus? Jul 14 22:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:GPS_Navigation]] [[User_talk:Kevinh]] Jul 14 22:40:07 neat. somehow i made jffs2 explode for files in /sbin Jul 14 22:40:30 ls: /sbin/fsck: Input/output error Jul 14 22:40:55 Does anyone know how the speed of the Neo (as it is today) compares to the performance of the Qemu image? Jul 14 22:41:09 Gonna depend on your processor AIUI. Jul 14 22:44:22 ChooseOpen: qemu's emulated instructions all have different speeds - it's almost impossible to compare Jul 14 22:44:51 step Jul 14 22:44:59 Stephmw: makes sense Jul 14 22:45:03 At least hrw said "good, it prepares you for the real thing" when someone complained of the slowness of qemu Jul 14 22:45:07 is there a compiled list of apps developed or in development for openmoko yet? Jul 14 22:45:17 CM: hahaha Jul 14 22:45:23 CM: LOL Jul 14 22:45:39 rastlinux: take a list of apps from a standard distro... now mark them all as 'potential' Jul 14 22:46:05 rastlinux: then start with the As and see if they're in the openembedded recipe list Jul 14 22:46:30 CM - *giggle* Jul 14 22:46:38 rastlinux: if they are... they'll probably compile for the Neo Jul 14 22:46:52 rastlinux: now test each one that builds and see if it runs at all Jul 14 22:47:00 rastlinux: .... you see where this is leading? :D Jul 14 22:47:16 I'd like to do all the performance tuning I can on the real Neo Jul 14 22:47:26 yup, thanks Jul 14 22:47:30 Not now, of course, but when more things work Jul 14 22:48:28 Of course, programs that need escape-meta-alt-control aren't _that_ iseable on the neo, except via ssh or with a BT keyboard. ;o) Jul 14 22:48:59 Elrond: that's just being pessimistic Jul 14 22:49:34 Elrond: I'm sure that with sufficient escape-shift, meta-shift, alt-shift, control-shift toggle modifiers, it'd be workable Jul 14 22:49:44 Elrond: but only RMS could love the resulting pain Jul 14 22:50:42 I'm thinking of thinks like openvpn and vpnc for business sort of work Jul 14 22:51:18 it sounds like that will probably work fine, they've been ported to other platforms I think with out issue. Jul 14 22:51:29 bt keyboard ftw anyway Jul 14 22:51:35 I'll be getting my bt keyboard on first thing Jul 14 22:52:55 I like that BT, virtual keyboard. Jul 14 22:53:12 way cool, just needs a flat surface Jul 14 22:53:25 can anyone run "wget http://www.rwhitby.net/files/openmoko/Makefile" ? Jul 14 22:53:26 cosminb: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 14 22:54:08 I am trying to follow the instructions on getting the mokomakefile up and running Jul 14 22:54:14 but the site is down Jul 14 22:55:04 Oh well. today is crash-neo day. Jul 14 22:55:13 gonna drop it on the floor? Jul 14 22:55:44 Well, only the kernel. Jul 14 22:57:16 cosminb: I can't, no Jul 14 22:57:24 anyone knows a mirror for the moko makefile? Jul 14 22:57:29 did the icons on the "today" screen return btw? Jul 14 22:57:30 Glad I did it last night Jul 14 22:57:45 They were gone with a pull from overnight Jul 14 22:58:06 they are gone for >1 week now Jul 14 22:58:08 CoreDump - I have no idea, I have only builds from buildhost and today is not my default boot. ;) Jul 14 22:59:36 anyone has a working mokomakefile? Jul 14 22:59:48 or should I just give up starting this way? Jul 14 22:59:59 cosminb: rwhitby.net is down Jul 14 23:00:09 hi there :) Jul 14 23:00:11 it's being fixed now Jul 14 23:00:16 cool :) Jul 14 23:00:30 let us know when it's up Jul 14 23:00:32 pls... Jul 14 23:00:47 http://svn.nslu2-linux.org/svnroot/mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile Jul 14 23:00:48 I have a checkout from July, 8th if that helps... Jul 14 23:01:05 thanks, I'll use that Jul 14 23:01:07 the svn repo is fine - just get it from that url Jul 14 23:01:17 ok Jul 14 23:01:18 (that's what the rwhitby.net url redirects to anyway) Jul 14 23:01:26 I see... Jul 14 23:28:11 pft Jul 14 23:32:29 cd /tmp Jul 14 23:32:31 ll Jul 14 23:32:56 sorry Jul 14 23:33:26 * summatusmentis notes that this is not a shell Jul 14 23:33:41 I SAID SORRY Jul 14 23:33:52 * SpeedEvil holds up an oil painting entitled "This is not a pipe". Jul 14 23:34:21 DukeOfUrl: just giving you crap :-) Jul 14 23:34:36 story of my day Jul 14 23:48:11 (script) planet: Daniel Willmann: See you at GUADEC http://www.totalueberwachung.de/blog/articles/2007/07/15/see-you-at-guadec Jul 15 00:02:31 * CM recomments Orcs and Elves as best mobile phone game ever so far Jul 15 00:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] Jul 15 00:23:45 rwhitby.net should be up again now - we had a router hardware failure Jul 15 00:42:34 how could I find a list of known-working applications on OpenEmbedded? Jul 15 00:57:30 jadams, openembedded.org Jul 15 01:39:42 . Jul 15 02:18:51 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jul 15 02:59:57 2007