**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jul 17 02:59:59 2007 Jul 17 03:00:01 I don't see a meaningfull difference between storing the flash on teh main hard-disk/SD, or the device, personally. Jul 17 03:01:08 it's not a huge diff aside from firmware loading Jul 17 03:01:15 cjb what does your wavelan card have to do with this? Jul 17 03:01:30 wavelan had flash firmware, unlike newer cards Jul 17 03:02:01 Bryc1: I can run it without using anything closed-source. Jul 17 03:02:18 Of course you can't. Jul 17 03:02:27 I mean, on the host computer. Jul 17 03:02:30 Just because you can't touch the closed source doesn't mean it's not there. Jul 17 03:02:34 including downloadable firmware. Jul 17 03:02:49 well, it's abstracted away Jul 17 03:03:01 SpeedEvil: it's subtle. having the closed part be on a ROM makes some free software people happy. Jul 17 03:03:13 SpeedEvil: i don't like binary blobs, but if it's on the hardware that's pretty much ok with me Jul 17 03:03:22 because if *no-one* can modify it, there's no power imbalance. no-one is taking control away from me; they don't have control either. Jul 17 03:03:25 its also okay with rms Jul 17 03:03:28 not true. Jul 17 03:03:38 somethings are closed source, i'd love to have an open solution but if it has to be closed source i'll take as little binary blobs in my kernel as possible Jul 17 03:03:53 rms happy? not likely Jul 17 03:03:58 actually yes Jul 17 03:04:00 binary blobs are very not okay with RMS, if they're kept on your computer. Jul 17 03:04:02 he wrote bout it Jul 17 03:04:03 SpeedEvil, we booked a booth in Linux World, if openmoko wants a free place to show, we can provide that. Jul 17 03:04:08 not binary blobs Jul 17 03:04:12 software on chip Jul 17 03:04:16 oh, stuff on ROM. Yes, I know that's okay. Jul 17 03:04:27 Personally, if there is the option of my hardware being $0.5 cheaper, or having a binary blob on the computer, I'm happy with the binary blob. Jul 17 03:04:29 if its on the chip it self there is no difference between the hardware and software and he is okay with that Jul 17 03:04:34 i think thatas reasonable Jul 17 03:04:37 i feel out of the lop what's an RMS? Jul 17 03:04:40 richard m stallman? Jul 17 03:04:43 SpeedEvil: Really? I'd rather have myhardware $0.5 cheaper. Jul 17 03:04:46 It's a bearded monster. Jul 17 03:05:00 that frees the manufacturer from releasing too many secrets and freely documenting their api's and interfaces Jul 17 03:05:03 Arachnid: that's what I just said. Jul 17 03:05:05 I'd rather have the firmware on computer, perhaps, because it means I *could* implement free firmware. Jul 17 03:05:05 so everyone wins Jul 17 03:05:20 SpeedEvil: No, you said if it was a choice of $0.5 cheaper or a binary blob, you'd take the blob. :) Jul 17 03:05:34 Err. Jul 17 03:05:36 Yes. Jul 17 03:05:38 Arachnid, that mostly suggests that you are penny wise dollar poor Jul 17 03:05:57 holycow: don't you mean speedevil? Jul 17 03:06:01 holycow: How does having a binary blob on my computer make me better off? Jul 17 03:06:13 lol i'm confused Jul 17 03:06:14 Or worse off. Jul 17 03:06:42 speedevil has a typo Jul 17 03:06:48 it might help: Jul 17 03:06:51 You still need a driver, it still needs to init the chip. It's just it's got a few tens of thousands more registers to set first. Jul 17 03:06:57 * you could implement free firmware, and then everyone would have more freedom. Jul 17 03:06:59 it might hurt: Jul 17 03:07:00 generally they put stuff into software to reduce hardware costs Jul 17 03:07:06 the firmware tends to be encrypted Jul 17 03:07:23 * the manufacturer could put out an update that changes what you're allowed to do, and you could unintentionally install it or whatever. Jul 17 03:07:34 shame they couldn't use that firmware to encrypt dvd's or something we'd have that broken in a week Jul 17 03:07:35 lol Jul 17 03:07:37 cjb: they can do that anyway. Jul 17 03:07:40 Magic packets. Jul 17 03:07:50 perhaps. Jul 17 03:07:58 i would say it this way: if i can have my hardware 1$ cheaper + blob, versus 1$ more expensive with firmware on hardware, i will pay the extra money Jul 17 03:08:23 i agree with holycow Jul 17 03:08:27 I understand - though don't agree with - why companies like nvidia make their drivers closed-source Jul 17 03:08:34 holycow: I haven't decided which I prefer. It's much nicer to be able to just boot Linux on a machine and have the drivers work. Jul 17 03:08:39 s/drivers/drivers and firmware/ Jul 17 03:08:39 Arachnid meant: I understand - though don't agree with - why companies like nvidia make their drivers and firmware closed-source Jul 17 03:08:44 holycow: so that's a step in favor of no binary blobs Jul 17 03:08:46 also letting them put out features into software lets them be extremely lazy and terrible in quality because they can patch it later Jul 17 03:08:51 with hardware they actually haveto do a good job Jul 17 03:08:57 any of you guys got a nice powerful computer? how's the qemu image run for you? Jul 17 03:08:57 Haha. Jul 17 03:09:00 What I don't get is why companies that make products like wireless cards, network cards, etc, do Jul 17 03:09:23 cjb, i try to make a good choice, rms really has a good understanding of the issues imho Jul 17 03:09:30 * SpeedEvil giggles at the notion that released PC hardware is bug-free without workarounds in the driver. Jul 17 03:09:30 pretty good goal to shoot for anyway Jul 17 03:09:43 Arachnid: profit? Jul 17 03:09:46 I can't see any real disadvantage to open sourcing their driver code - it's not their main product - and the advantage is that it'll run much mroe easily on other OSes Jul 17 03:09:48 oh lord you guys shoulda seen the first gen quadro fx code Jul 17 03:09:51 that shit was brutal Jul 17 03:09:53 SpeedEvil: How do they make more profit from closed-source drivers? Jul 17 03:10:03 The drivers themselves don't cost anything Jul 17 03:10:11 Arachnid: you hadn't completed the second part of that. Jul 17 03:10:13 i agree with arachnid Jul 17 03:10:18 mostly they have nothing to loose Jul 17 03:10:20 and more to gain Jul 17 03:10:26 free support for hardware forever Jul 17 03:10:36 there are odd circumstances tho Jul 17 03:10:37 I've never been able to place a call, but now the gsm signal bars are occasionally changing Jul 17 03:10:40 something is going on Jul 17 03:10:41 like planned obsolesence Jul 17 03:10:44 Constraints on rapidly being able to change chips. Jul 17 03:10:46 SpeedEvil: ah Jul 17 03:10:47 and pure and simple stupidity Jul 17 03:11:07 I understand why graphics card manufacturers make their drivers and firmware closed-source (though I don't like it) Jul 17 03:11:22 There's a lot of IP in them, and a very real risk that competitors would analyze it if it were easier to do so Jul 17 03:11:31 (Hell, they probably do even with it closed source) Jul 17 03:11:34 I'm trying to get the neo/openmoko qemu emulator going according to the instructions at the wiki, but openmoko/flash.sh errors out. Jul 17 03:11:39 But that doesn't really apply to other devices Jul 17 03:11:58 the drivers aren't to IP particular, but the firmware on the cards is pretty neat Jul 17 03:12:11 dumps lots of invalid parameters to 'sleep', like the wrong variable was fed to it. Jul 17 03:12:48 appearently the argument from nvidia devs is that the cards do a whole lot more than simple video drivers of old Jul 17 03:13:05 the cards do, or the drivers do? Jul 17 03:13:36 actually, looks like someone else has the same problem: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU#flash.sh_fails Jul 17 03:13:38 holycow: and that's true to some extent, alot of the time first gen drivers to unlock all pixel pipelines that the hardware supports Jul 17 03:13:43 well my understanding is its the cards that do a whole lot of neat thing, therefore thats their justification for keeping them closed source Jul 17 03:14:16 if the stuff they do is that neat, surely there shouldn't be much of a driver needed Jul 17 03:14:24 although i suspect they do a lot of stuff like intel and amd, which is all chips are built at top speed so ther eis only one real chip design per family Jul 17 03:14:38 all the other speeds are simply failures to get maximum performance Jul 17 03:14:41 so they are locked down Jul 17 03:15:05 i bet nvidia does similar stuff, opening up the drivers might actually let gamer cards get same performance as their pro cards Jul 17 03:15:25 The nvidia drivers do a lot of stuff too Jul 17 03:15:29 on windows there used to be driver hacks to enable quadro capability on nvidia cards via software Jul 17 03:15:36 Witness the sort of performance improvements you sometimes see with updated drivers Jul 17 03:16:06 ahh well i can't go into too much more detail about nvidia drivers but yes there have been utils to "corporate overclock" bottom line cards to their top line brothers specs without a problem, mostly internally of course Jul 17 03:16:14 They essentially implement compilers from directx/opengl to the native assembly the pixel shaders use on the card, for example Jul 17 03:16:37 the only real driver tweaking around for people anymore is OmegaDrivers and the like Jul 17 03:17:19 which is still usually an abstratcion for the underlying stream processors Jul 17 03:17:43 well the performance of these things is so huge these days that you know getting 5 fps gain really isn't worth it Jul 17 03:17:59 you would of noticed it on a 400mhz machine but not on a 2.8 ghz one Jul 17 03:18:14 very true, but back with the geforce mx series you coould take a 420 (bottom line) and make it compete with the Ti4400 no problem Jul 17 03:18:21 I've seen 40% FPS improvements in some scenarios with updated drivers Jul 17 03:18:37 Not talking about overclocking hacks or anything, just optimisations they've made to the drivers Jul 17 03:18:51 the final flash step of the qemu build also seems to fail if I put a hard-coded sleep time of up to 10 minutes in the flash.sh script. Jul 17 03:19:05 Arachnid: that's usually just unlocking of all the availalable hardware pipelines and fully utilizing the bus width Jul 17 03:20:42 and then optomizations for shader language as well Jul 17 03:20:44 Bryc1, lol, funny you mention that i still run dual 19" monis off of a ti4200 Jul 17 03:20:50 lol me too! Jul 17 03:21:06 well not quite Jul 17 03:21:09 i push a 17 and a 19 Jul 17 03:21:14 an old nec and a newer acer Jul 17 03:21:32 who was having the flash.sh problems? Jul 17 03:21:37 Qwell: that'd be me Jul 17 03:21:42 alrighty i've been skirting the edges of my nda a bit closely, so on that note I'll leave you to your nights and i'm sure i'll be back soon to bug you guys Jul 17 03:21:50 shrapnel: ls -l `which sh` Jul 17 03:21:59 oh, wait, nm, it explicitly calls bash Jul 17 03:22:20 Qwell: indeed Jul 17 03:22:24 is there a log of this chan somewhere? Jul 17 03:22:30 ~logs Jul 17 03:22:31 it has been said that logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org// where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/.html.gz Jul 17 03:22:37 hurrah Jul 17 03:23:06 holycow, cjb Arachnid cesarb, Goodnight! Jul 17 03:23:17 lata Jul 17 03:25:51 shrapnel: $uboot_image is empty Jul 17 03:26:19 which means that $2 in most_recent isn't being set Jul 17 03:27:04 Qwell: aha Jul 17 03:27:10 What does it say for Jul 17 03:27:25 "Using '' as bootloader."? Jul 17 03:28:38 Qwell: kernel/rootfs/bootloader all empty. =( Jul 17 03:28:55 grep _wildcard openmoko/env Jul 17 03:29:02 are any of those set? Jul 17 03:29:19 actually, you aren't running flash.sh from inside the openmoko dir, are you? Jul 17 03:29:25 ie; you aren't doing ./flash.sh, I hope Jul 17 03:29:31 Qwell: nope Jul 17 03:29:41 Qwell: looks like my download.sh is failing... Jul 17 03:29:57 how are you calling them? Jul 17 03:30:17 Qwell: ./openmoko/download.sh Jul 17 03:30:32 Do you have an env file in openmoko/ ? Jul 17 03:31:03 Qwell: I may be missing download.sh deps... like lynx. Jul 17 03:31:25 if your env doesn't have and _wildcard lines in it, then something is wrong with your checkout... Jul 17 03:31:29 buy a Dell Quad Core E6850 machine now (super fast 1333mhz FSB) for US$299 Jul 17 03:31:57 Sorry Intel E6850 Jul 17 03:32:19 3Ghz cpu Jul 17 03:32:25 Qwell: hmm, I don't see any _wildcard-like entries in openmoko/env Jul 17 03:32:37 shrapnel: svn info openmoko/ Jul 17 03:32:44 Qwell: er, I'm blind, they're there. =) Jul 17 03:32:46 AMD is now in deep doo doo Jul 17 03:32:47 ok Jul 17 03:33:12 and do any files matching those wildcards exist in the openmoko dir? I imagine not, if the download.sh is failing Jul 17 03:33:34 Qwell: nope Jul 17 03:33:55 Qwell: looks like it's trying for lynx, which I don't have installed just yet. Jul 17 03:34:21 that'd do it Jul 17 03:35:23 Qwell: it'll be a few minutes, gentoo system. thanks for the critical thinking skills. Jul 17 03:37:57 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Modular_phone]] [[Talk:Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Explaining_carriers_versus_phones]] [[OpenMoko:Community_Portal]] [[User_talk:Kevinh]] [[User_talk:Historybuff]] [[User:Historybuff]] [[Talk:Modular_phone]] [[Input_Method]] Jul 17 03:38:35 hey, download.sh downloads things now. =) Jul 17 03:47:20 shrapnel: might want to update the wiki Jul 17 03:48:31 Qwell: guess I should. I'll have to create an account. Jul 17 03:51:38 there. bugmenot to the rescue. =) Jul 17 04:28:45 crap. my stupid an8 sli motherboard died. Jul 17 04:43:30 ~/topic Jul 17 04:43:58 "Shipping date projected at 2007-07-16 or later" - that sounds very likely. Jul 17 04:44:00 ;) Jul 17 04:44:19 couldn you simply replace it with "will ship sometime" Jul 17 04:44:26 ... maybe Jul 17 04:44:29 * doc|home ducks Jul 17 04:46:44 shipping any century now Jul 17 04:46:45 :-) Jul 17 05:38:17 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] Jul 17 05:38:48 aloril: any chance you could modify the script to add a hyperlink to the updated pages? Jul 17 05:39:29 cibomahto: it will make lines much longer, just bookmark http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges Jul 17 05:39:41 anyone here built a car PC? Jul 17 05:40:06 cibomahto: if there are many changes, its not even listing all of them ;-) Jul 17 05:40:33 aloril: cool, thanks for the link, and for running the update script Jul 17 05:41:12 np Jul 17 05:50:35 this is worth a laugh, looks like he doesnt like the iPhone http://duggmirror.com/apple/The_iPhone_is_a_piece_of_shit_and_so_is_your_face/?u=iphone Jul 17 05:53:02 bassinboy, i haven't Jul 17 05:54:26 bassinboy, but i've seen a video podcast where the guy explains how he did it, http://infonomicon.org/infotv.php Jul 17 06:00:57 Thanks quinton Jul 17 06:14:53 cesarb: Nice work on the carrier page :) Jul 17 06:57:25 ~botsnack Jul 17 06:57:26 ScaredyCat: thanks Jul 17 06:57:45 any rumors about the phones that aren't announced yet? Jul 17 06:57:45 khaije1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 17 06:58:07 * ScaredyCat slaps aloril a bit Jul 17 06:58:35 hehe, that is not good link Jul 17 06:58:38 counter Jul 17 06:58:38 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 14:30:38 (0.605±0.6 days) (1750;248) Jul 17 06:58:52 there's bugger all information khaije1 ... we're all waiting for something... Jul 17 06:59:03 geez, how many bots are tehre here.... Jul 17 06:59:13 only 1 Jul 17 06:59:43 yeah, not much information, mostly just guesses Jul 17 06:59:48 unless you count the fact that I'm still half asleep, so am behaving like one Jul 17 06:59:53 aloril why did you respond to my question so quick? Jul 17 07:00:12 cyborg ;-) Jul 17 07:00:13 automatic khaije1 - he's a bot and a real person Jul 17 07:00:18 hehe Jul 17 07:00:31 like lando's human PDA Jul 17 07:01:14 ... but I guess it must be night in ca, which means nothing is shipping? Jul 17 07:01:28 s/?// Jul 17 07:01:28 ScaredyCat meant: ... but I guess it must be night in ca, which means nothing is shipping Jul 17 07:01:44 yeah, its midnight now Jul 17 07:02:04 the gta001 is cool, but i don't mind waiting to see what comes down the pipe Jul 17 07:02:56 openmoko is definitely the way to do though (speaking as a longtime verizon customer) Jul 17 07:03:46 hah, that replace-stuff is awesome ;) Jul 17 07:03:48 it wouldn't actually suprise me if there weren't any in ca... Jul 17 07:04:13 nd that FIC were just getting numbers before strting the short production run Jul 17 07:04:25 apt: good bot Jul 17 07:04:26 khaije1: :) Jul 17 07:04:56 it will be interesting to see how other phone manufs. react Jul 17 07:05:33 not at all most likely. Thouygh both Motorola have atleast toyed iwth linux, but I think Nokia is the most "open" of them Jul 17 07:05:36 with the N800 an all Jul 17 07:05:50 s/Motorola/Motorola and Nokia/ Jul 17 07:05:57 nevertheless its very smart onFIC's part Jul 17 07:07:22 I was thinking today I need to plan a trip to the Us or wherever the phones will ship from to avoid the taxes and shipping costs.. since they will likely be 100% or more of the price Jul 17 07:07:56 the customs are not very cheap Jul 17 07:08:10 sandos: what locale are you speaking from? Jul 17 07:08:22 would be awesmoe if OM could eventually ship from within the EU. I guess they would have to pay customs to actually get stuff into EU to begin with though... Jul 17 07:08:25 Sweden Jul 17 07:11:47 so whats the best news feed to subscribe to relating to this project/company? Jul 17 07:12:09 khaije1: planet.openmoko.org is a good start Jul 17 07:12:18 k Jul 17 07:12:24 Then you have a lot to chose from on lists.openmoko.org Jul 17 07:13:12 sandos: Jag har beställt en redan. 80 dollar att skicka, och surt om det blir tull på det också.. Jul 17 07:14:18 det är väl tull på allt? Jul 17 07:14:29 iaf från USA.. såvida du inte har tur eller något. Jul 17 07:15:19 morning Jul 17 07:16:08 sandos: Jag hoppas på tur, och att de märker paketet med "Development sample" Jul 17 07:16:44 mmm Jul 17 07:38:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Modular_phone]] [[Neo1973/de]] [[Distance_Measuring]] [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[VoiceText]] [[Template:Unimplemented]] [[Template:Improve]] [[Voice_Mailbox]] [[Translation]] [[Freshman_todo]] [[Bluetooth_powered_Multi-SIM_support]] and other changes Jul 17 08:04:50 /msh nickserv help Jul 17 08:21:17 hi there. Jul 17 08:23:32 * ScaredyCat looks around Jul 17 08:35:11 is there any updates on the shipping of the mythical Neo1973? Jul 17 08:41:03 cninja: nope... :'( Jul 17 08:41:28 awww :( can't wait to get my hands on the precious Jul 17 08:41:54 cninja: I cooled down on that issue a little bit. Now I tell myself, it's like a Debian release: It ships when it is ready.... ;-) Jul 17 08:42:16 except.. this wont be ready when it ships ;) Jul 17 08:42:32 well gotta admire the positive attitude :D Jul 17 08:42:48 * ScaredyCat nods Jul 17 08:43:05 ScaredyCat: well, true :-) Jul 17 08:43:56 mokomakefile buggered again? Jul 17 08:52:45 ScaredyCat: It was fine yesterday. Jul 17 08:53:06 *** Your name cannot be determined from your system services (gecos). Jul 17 08:53:06 *** You would need to set GIT_AUTHOR_NAME and GIT_COMMITTER_NAME Jul 17 08:53:23 .. which is rather dumb... since i'm not commitng anythign Jul 17 08:58:27 ScaredyCat: Strange. Jul 17 09:01:09 exporting them fixes it, but it shouldn;t be there, should it.. Jul 17 09:02:33 ScaredyCat: I just updated, ran setup and built the flash image Jul 17 09:02:41 No issues at all Jul 17 09:10:08 built ok, after exporting gunk for those GIT_.... Jul 17 09:16:13 * Uatec checks the website for a hardware upgrade Jul 17 09:25:28 I'm doing this too much. Jul 17 09:25:34 I just woke up. Jul 17 09:26:05 I was dreaming of someone asking a question about X over bluetooth on the neo. Jul 17 09:26:39 SpeedEvil: Hehe.. Scary ;) Jul 17 09:27:37 :) Jul 17 09:35:07 morning all Jul 17 09:35:08 counter Jul 17 09:35:08 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 13:12:23 (0.550±0.6 days) (1751;248) Jul 17 09:37:59 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Summer_of_code/fr]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Summer_of_code]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[UI_Improvements/fr]] [[Mokopedia]] [[Modular_phone]] Jul 17 09:40:25 mornin' Jul 17 10:24:35 aloril: Can your scripts run in more than one channel? Jul 17 10:24:59 ewanm89_laptop: why? Jul 17 10:26:13 aloril: It's hoped people would migrate to #openmoko-dev Jul 17 10:27:57 * SpeedEvil imagines a herd of developers migrating across the plain, being picked off by typos. Jul 17 10:28:13 Hoped by who? Jul 17 10:28:21 * SpeedEvil notes a grand total of 6 people. Jul 17 10:28:31 there's a -dev? Jul 17 10:28:39 * Stephmw looks wildly around Jul 17 10:28:46 Apparently, it's where the deviants hang out. Jul 17 10:29:26 there is still #openmoko-devel though, but its closed Jul 17 10:29:43 personne ne parle francais? Jul 17 10:29:43 MarcelPentium: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 17 10:30:26 man, he didn't really wait Jul 17 10:30:29 I hate that. Jul 17 10:30:29 aloril: openmoko-devel is for employees only as they talk business stratagy and stuff under NDAs. Jul 17 10:30:47 ok Jul 17 10:31:12 * ewon dons his "JE NE COMPRENDS PAS" t-shirt Jul 17 10:31:33 Yeah, migrate now, rather than in october when we need a user channel. Jul 17 10:32:24 ewanm89_laptop: I mean, there's bound to be a few french speakers in here... but by god, I wish people would be patient Jul 17 10:35:03 Stephmw: I'm trying to avoid a rush, so I was thinking get the bot/scripts in both for now, hence why I asked aloril Jul 17 10:35:15 ewanm89_laptop: fair enough Jul 17 10:51:32 credit card has been charged Jul 17 10:51:56 s/has/has not/ Jul 17 10:51:56 ScaredyCat meant: credit card has not been charged Jul 17 10:52:26 * ScaredyCat tries the proper window Jul 17 10:52:54 Jul 17 10:52:54 * ferric yawns. Jul 17 10:56:46 hi Jul 17 10:57:53 hi Jul 17 10:58:54 yo Jul 17 10:59:38 lol Jul 17 11:00:16 hi Jul 17 11:00:23 somebody got news about shipping? Jul 17 11:00:28 lol Jul 17 11:00:49 cel: don't mention the war Jul 17 11:01:13 war?? Jul 17 11:01:29 did i miss somethig? Jul 17 11:02:35 hey guys, have you seen this: http://duggmirror.com/apple/The_iPhone_is_a_piece_of_shit_and_so_is_your_face/?u=iphone Jul 17 11:02:38 it's damn funny Jul 17 11:03:07 yes Jul 17 11:04:01 cel: it's a Flowery Towels reference... Jul 17 11:04:01 lol Jul 17 11:04:06 really funny Jul 17 11:04:10 Faulty Towers Jul 17 11:04:22 "you started it" Jul 17 11:04:27 "no we didn't" Jul 17 11:04:36 "yes you did, you invated poland" Jul 17 11:04:41 ded Jul 17 11:05:03 it's a funny episode, if a little cringe-worthy Jul 17 11:05:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MbeT7_ARm8 Jul 17 11:05:47 i like very much the comparative table Jul 17 11:08:34 i'm NOT german Jul 17 11:09:25 no... Jul 17 11:09:36 but that's where 'don't mention the war' comes form Jul 17 11:09:38 from Jul 17 11:10:02 it has come to mean don't talk about something that upsets people Jul 17 11:10:33 instaflame Jul 17 11:10:37 sorry i´ll never ask again ;) Jul 17 11:11:31 :) Jul 17 11:14:41 hmm how do the n800 and neo formfactors compare? Jul 17 11:17:35 we're at 184 grams, they're 206 Jul 17 11:18:18 we're 121x62x19 mm, they're 75x144x13 mm Jul 17 11:18:18 and the iphone? Jul 17 11:18:36 that's in the wiki: https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone Jul 17 11:19:17 tuukkah: i got the n800, btw it has a good CPU Jul 17 11:19:32 i'm happy with its hardware. Jul 17 11:19:43 expansys hav them at 70 squibs Jul 17 11:19:46 my friend asked me yesterday why the Neo doesn't have like a 2ghz processor in it Jul 17 11:19:52 Sigh. Jul 17 11:19:52 bedboi, i just borrowed one and i'm happy the neo is smaller :-) Jul 17 11:19:55 lol Jul 17 11:19:55 I called him an idiot, and laughed Jul 17 11:19:57 Qwell: LOL Jul 17 11:20:03 hehe Jul 17 11:20:16 "Do you *really* want a phone with a fan in your pocket?" Jul 17 11:20:20 lol Jul 17 11:20:25 "and a 3" heatsink?" Jul 17 11:20:29 You could dual-use the fan. Jul 17 11:20:30 "...no...I guess not" Jul 17 11:20:33 It could also fly. Jul 17 11:20:40 and the battery life of a gnat Jul 17 11:20:44 ScaredyCat: yeah... Jul 17 11:20:47 if that Jul 17 11:20:56 SpeedEvil: it's a sweat side-effect Jul 17 11:21:06 eew Jul 17 11:21:30 Gnats have decent life, compared to many mobiles. Jul 17 11:21:48 my brother in law asked if it wouldn't be better for the moko to run windows. I told him he's not allowed be married to my sister anymore Jul 17 11:21:54 anyone has any figures about Neo battery life? Jul 17 11:22:05 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 17 11:22:06 bedboi: somewhere between 1 hour and 1 week Jul 17 11:22:07 ewon: that's a good point Jul 17 11:22:15 bedboi: tehre is a page in the wiki. Jul 17 11:22:16 Qwell[]: ah, cool. Jul 17 11:22:18 However. Jul 17 11:22:22 SpeedEvil: thanks Jul 17 11:22:31 Much of teh powersaving software has not been written. Jul 17 11:22:34 there could be a great deal of tuning for the battery, from what I read Jul 17 11:22:44 ewon: imagine if he reproduces, the nonsense he'll fill your nieces/nephews' heads with! Jul 17 11:23:07 madness! Jul 17 11:23:14 now, when I get emails, I check them immediately... just in case it's my cc confirmation... it's sad really Jul 17 11:23:24 For example, when 'idle' - screen on, but not doing anything - you can drop the processor down to 40Mhz or so, saving Jul 17 11:23:31 Qwell[]: i have some plans with power management at user space, but i need time. damn. Jul 17 11:23:32 Maybe 300mW Jul 17 11:23:49 * ewon remembers when 40Mhz was enough to run Doom Jul 17 11:23:58 * bedboi curses autotools Jul 17 11:24:03 anyone looked at suspend2's keep mode as a way to reduct boot times Jul 17 11:24:06 That _was_ generally with a FPU though. Jul 17 11:24:08 the 3d acceleration in GTA02 has promise Jul 17 11:24:12 portable duke3d :D Jul 17 11:24:23 hello Jul 17 11:24:24 oh, does this ARM they're using have an MMU? Jul 17 11:24:27 SpeedEvil: true Jul 17 11:24:28 yes. Jul 17 11:24:31 qwell yes Jul 17 11:24:31 excellent Jul 17 11:24:35 mmu-less dev *sucks* Jul 17 11:24:35 who is working in openmoko web browser? Jul 17 11:24:54 qwell I dont know many arm devices without mmu Jul 17 11:24:55 no one :) Jul 17 11:25:05 zecke psst Jul 17 11:25:05 * ewon tries his hardest to make the VS linker explode Jul 17 11:25:06 woglinde: I'm not a hardware guy :D Jul 17 11:25:07 jsmanrique: you ? Jul 17 11:25:09 qwell: Software-wise, think pretty much a pentium-100 laptop, with a modern X/GTK installed. Jul 17 11:25:14 http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/3191-Apple-iPhone-vs-OpenMoko-vs-nokia-770-vs-Nokia-800-1- Jul 17 11:25:19 SpeedEvil: yeah, I know Jul 17 11:25:33 tuukkah: is that a complete URL? Jul 17 11:25:37 the 770/800 aren't phones,... Jul 17 11:26:00 voip Jul 17 11:26:14 ewon, it is Jul 17 11:26:17 ScaredyCat: that would be difficult... I don't know much more about mozilla embedded or gtk-webcore Jul 17 11:26:50 bah, web browsers... throw links2 on there with the framebuffer mode :) Jul 17 11:26:59 put a pretty xterm around it, and call it a day Jul 17 11:27:06 ScaredyCat, but if i have a phone in my pocket or backpack, then they are comparable Jul 17 11:27:07 FF will sort-of-work Jul 17 11:27:07 :-) Jul 17 11:27:24 erm, elinks? whatever Jul 17 11:27:26 I'm at the moment running on the same RAM as the neo on my lappy, and have 16 tabs open. Jul 17 11:27:28 opera mini works Jul 17 11:27:38 woglinde: opera isn't open source though, right? Jul 17 11:27:49 woglinde: works or should it work? Jul 17 11:27:49 doesn't mean you can't use it Jul 17 11:27:53 works Jul 17 11:28:00 no, but that means it wouldn't be in a release build, right? Jul 17 11:28:05 woglinde: does neo have j2me? Jul 17 11:28:08 with phoneme feature and qt-fb support Jul 17 11:28:19 ah Jul 17 11:28:21 jsmanrique yes it will Jul 17 11:28:29 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 17 11:28:36 ok, it will.. so it doesn't have it yet Jul 17 11:28:44 What may arrive is a totally different question. Jul 17 11:28:45 SpeedEvil: I see Jul 17 11:29:19 SpeedEvil: I hope that what will arrive would be mature enough ;-) Jul 17 11:29:30 It will, come 'October'. Jul 17 11:29:34 yes Jul 17 11:30:20 seeing how mobile web is growing, I think that a "decent" mobile browser is needed.. ok, opera-mini is right (maybe) Jul 17 11:30:26 * ScaredyCat points jsmanrique at SpeedEvil's ' marks Jul 17 11:30:54 jsmanrique: There's a reason zecke said "no one :)"... ;) Jul 17 11:31:16 http://www.moblin.org/ Jul 17 11:31:34 woglinde: I saw that one on linuxdevices this morning Jul 17 11:31:41 cm jupps Jul 17 11:31:53 Guess there could come some good stuff from it eventually :) Jul 17 11:32:16 I have blogged about neo 1973, not being a developer, it is my way about supporting this great project Jul 17 11:32:33 cm hm yes now we have nokia with maemo, palmsource, qtopia, moblin, openmoko Jul 17 11:35:28 any new information about neo shipments? Jul 17 11:35:50 it was not me ;-) Jul 17 11:36:15 duke no Jul 17 11:37:59 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Summer_of_code/fr]] [[Hammerhead/Protocol]] [[How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC]] [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Summer_of_code]] [[Talk:Modular_phone]] Jul 17 11:40:12 Have people that have ordered a Neo already had their cards charged? Jul 17 11:40:19 we just got a new coffee machine. a proper one. and it has a serial port on the back, labelled "SERVICE" Jul 17 11:40:27 qwell noone Jul 17 11:40:30 ewon: put netbsd on it Jul 17 11:40:53 Qwell[]: I think attaching a webserver to it might be an idea :) Jul 17 11:41:57 ewon: sweet... Jul 17 11:42:02 add afoxboard to it... Jul 17 11:42:17 s/afoxboard/a foxboard/ Jul 17 11:42:18 ScaredyCat meant: add a foxboard to it... Jul 17 11:42:33 Qwell[]: no.. it seems Jul 17 11:43:00 and some level sensors... Jul 17 11:44:03 woglinde: have you had a go xcompiling Jul 17 11:44:05 ? Jul 17 11:48:48 stephmw no I learned yesterday and will today Jul 17 11:48:59 tomorrow I will work further on it Jul 17 11:56:08 hi Jul 17 11:56:21 hi pbeck Jul 17 11:56:33 hi woglinde Jul 17 12:17:27 1Z3020409142598850 Jul 17 12:17:28 1Z3020409142598850 Jul 17 12:17:28 1Z3020409142598850 Jul 17 12:17:28 1Z3020409142598850 Jul 17 12:17:28 1Z3020409142598850 Jul 17 12:17:28 1Z3020409142598850 Jul 17 12:17:45 umm, okay Jul 17 12:18:59 that's interesting Jul 17 12:19:23 * SpeedEvil is currently trying to work out if there is a nice way to extract the 10000 most popular pages from wikipedia. Jul 17 12:20:07 For integration into mokopedia Jul 17 12:20:12 (or whatever it's called) Jul 17 12:20:20 SPeedEvil: this might get you started: http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/index.php Jul 17 12:20:29 I know. Jul 17 12:20:34 1000 is really too little though. Jul 17 12:20:50 SpeedEvil: i wonder what percentage of hits those 10000 actually represent though. Jul 17 12:20:54 * SpeedEvil is mailing the author about what the raw database is, and if it might be available. Jul 17 12:21:28 don't the just use mediawiki? which uses mysql Jul 17 12:23:53 I mean - the stats database. Jul 17 12:26:05 well, mediawiki has SpecialPages:PopularPages Jul 17 12:26:14 SpeedEvil: You can export to csv. Jul 17 12:26:43 you could look at the source for that to figure out what you ned Jul 17 12:27:23 cjb_ie: I doubt that you there is "public" access to the database backend. Jul 17 12:27:55 Actually - it doesn't. Jul 17 12:28:08 (PopularPages) Jul 17 12:28:41 Kensan: indeed, but one might be able to put together a simple query and get a wikipedian to run it for one? Jul 17 12:28:57 SpeedEvil: i'm looking at one right now. Jul 17 12:31:50 Special:PopularPages don't exist. Jul 17 12:32:42 *shrug* maybe they've removed it from wikipedia's install Jul 17 12:32:52 Probable. Jul 17 12:32:59 SpeedEvil: you can get top 5001 in CSV-format from wikicharts. Jul 17 12:33:05 Most of the stats pages seem to be from 2004 or earlier with stubs Jul 17 12:33:06 1000 Jul 17 12:33:09 AIUI Jul 17 12:33:10 1001 Jul 17 12:33:10 * ar1 hello to all who has life Jul 17 12:33:20 SpeedEvil: although only per month. Nope I just tried. It's 5001 Jul 17 12:33:26 It goes back to 100 hits over 1001 Jul 17 12:33:38 I must be doing something wrong. Jul 17 12:34:20 SpeedEvil: see http://tools.wikimedia.de/~leon/stats/wikicharts/index.php?lang=en&wiki=enwiki&ns=all&limit=5001&month=07%2F2007&mode=csv Jul 17 12:34:44 http://hemlock.knams.wikimedia.org/~leon/stats/wikicharts/index.php?wiki=enwiki&ns=articles&limit=2000&mode=view Jul 17 12:34:46 reports 100 Jul 17 12:34:56 http://hemlock.knams.wikimedia.org/~leon/stats/wikicharts/index.php?wiki=enwiki&ns=articles&limit=1000&mode=view Jul 17 12:34:57 reports 1000 Jul 17 12:35:11 looking. Jul 17 12:35:35 SpeedEvil: "# WikiCharts,Entries:5001,Month:07/2007" Jul 17 12:36:45 Oh - right. Jul 17 12:36:50 It gives it up only in CSV Jul 17 12:36:51 SpeedEvil: however, mediawiki definitely has that functionality, so installing one somewhere to look at might be instructive. Jul 17 12:37:13 if you ask for it in html it breaks Jul 17 12:37:34 I suspect that it was pulled for speed reasons. Jul 17 12:38:23 I do have some doubts as to that data - only 62000 hits to the front page a day? Jul 17 12:38:26 Hmm Jul 17 12:38:48 i very, very rarely hit the front page. Jul 17 12:39:46 i generally type 'en.', browser autocompletes that with the url to some random entry i've recently visited, which i then edit Jul 17 12:39:59 or i google for whatever site:wikipedia.org Jul 17 12:41:48 Hmm Jul 17 12:44:11 cjb_ie: you use firefox? Jul 17 12:44:25 jgm: yup, mostly on ubuntu Jul 17 12:44:44 You should try keywords then, very classy Jul 17 12:45:28 I think that firefox comes with a keyword search for Wikipedia already, try putting 'wp test' in to the location bar (without quotes) and see if it work Jul 17 12:45:33 s/work/works/ Jul 17 12:45:34 jgm meant: I think that firefox comes with a keyword search for Wikipedia already, try putting 'wp test' in to the location bar (without quotes) and see if it works Jul 17 12:45:38 IIRC 2 only Jul 17 12:45:52 s/./IIRC FF 2 only/ Jul 17 12:45:56 err Jul 17 12:47:21 Think keywords are in FF 1 as well, maybe only 1.5 but they've been there for a while now Jul 17 12:47:41 bah, i just google for whatever i want to see and it's the task for google to put the wikipedia results first %-) Jul 17 12:48:58 sometimes i do that too. Jul 17 12:49:46 ooh nice. think konqueror did that a few year back, only trouble it was konqueror. Jul 17 12:50:29 tuukkah: yeah but this way cuts down on mouse movement, which is the main reason that I use them Jul 17 12:51:05 you touch someones mouse when you use the computer o_O Jul 17 12:51:17 does anyone know more about the shipping of the neo's? Jul 17 12:52:06 jgm, that's a good point Jul 17 12:52:07 batti112: Those that knew have been killed. Jul 17 12:52:19 :) Jul 17 12:52:32 Seriously - nothing. Jul 17 12:52:42 well, we now know the applicable "or" part is "later" Jul 17 12:54:52 cjb: seems an artifact. The previous months have >2.5 million views/day Jul 17 13:01:55 how long do pickled onions keep ? Jul 17 13:02:38 Also - if wikipedia stats are to be believed: 25% is inside 500 articles, 50% is inside 1500 articles, 75% is under 4000 Jul 17 13:02:46 ScaredyCat: depends on how pickled. Jul 17 13:02:55 asda ones... Jul 17 13:03:04 Pickled with lots and lots of salt, a _long_ time. Jul 17 13:03:09 most pickled things last forever Jul 17 13:03:18 Proper pickling. Jul 17 13:03:25 Not modern 'reduced salt' stuff Jul 17 13:03:25 i mean after they're opened Jul 17 13:03:29 that was the purpose of pickling after all Jul 17 13:03:33 ScaredyCat: observe teh label. Jul 17 13:03:51 I did, but I ate 6 first.. Jul 17 13:03:57 Multiply by a factor of how picky you are. Jul 17 13:03:58 seemed ok... Jul 17 13:04:04 In general. Jul 17 13:04:13 7 months is fine then ;) Jul 17 13:04:15 I never observe the label. I am using the theory that the makers wants people to throw away stuff that is not yet bad, and I always take the label with a big grain of salt Jul 17 13:04:18 Vegetables don't tend to go bad in lethal ways and taste OK. Jul 17 13:04:42 I just found them in th fridge... Jul 17 13:05:01 re: the firefox keyword search conversation: just put yubnub in your keywordURL value in about.config Jul 17 13:05:05 _text_ only - of the first 1000 articles is 70M Jul 17 13:05:09 and you get the whole yubnub command line thing from the browser Jul 17 13:05:52 SpeedEvil: Wow, that's a lot of text Jul 17 13:06:37 * SpeedEvil makes a little graph on size/rank Jul 17 13:06:58 SpeedEvil: I have The Hobbit as a .txt and that's 0.5mb Jul 17 13:07:30 For about 400 pages Jul 17 13:09:07 if I have a powered usb hard drive I should be able to connect it to the phone no prob, right? Jul 17 13:09:42 jadams: Should work yes Jul 17 13:18:12 jadams: probably not. Jul 17 13:18:48 jadams: the problem is that most USB devices (that I've tested - about 5) also rely on the presenve of +5V to wake them up and start them listening as USB Jul 17 13:21:27 I'd have thought a powered usb hub would sort that Jul 17 13:21:58 SpeedEvil: well, if I just need to get +5V to 'em I'll be fine Jul 17 13:22:06 planning on building a bastard cable with a battery attached :) Jul 17 13:23:39 http://www.radioshack.com/sm-cyberpower-4-port-battery-powered-hub--pi-2259675.html Jul 17 13:27:48 ScaredyCat: powered hubs are the same. Jul 17 13:27:56 ScaredyCat: tried to order one of those cyberpower hubs in switzerland.. but no luck.. i even searched in other european countrys.. called our local distibutors if they can get one but still no luck Jul 17 13:28:20 Many won't recognise the host if it's not powered. Jul 17 13:29:10 My Belkin tetrahub, forex, needs 5V - even only for a moment - on the host port Jul 17 13:29:36 http://tabletblog.com/2006/01/no-solder-usb-host-method.html Jul 17 13:29:43 Otherwise it doesn't recognise it. Jul 17 13:30:09 http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4564/2003/1600/cimg0667.3.jpg?force=1 Jul 17 13:32:15 is it normal that while building the makefile image the cpus are only on 60% load? Jul 17 13:34:40 did you use make -j somenumber? Jul 17 13:35:07 cjb_ie: yes, j 3 for 2 cores.. Jul 17 13:35:29 dunno then. Jul 17 13:35:41 cjb_ie: ok, thanks Jul 17 13:37:26 C7_: Amazon have them Jul 17 13:38:15 http://www.amazon.com/Cyberpower-CP-H420MP-USB-Hub-Battery-Powered/dp/B0002UQALQ Jul 17 13:38:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Stylus_mount]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] [[Main_Page/fr]] [[Mokopedia]] [[Summer_of_code/fr]] [[Alternate_colours/materials]] [[Ambient_light_sensor]] [[Extra_storage]] [[General-purpose_buttons_%28side-mounted%29]] and other changes Jul 17 13:44:41 ScaredyCat: thanks, seen that allready.. but only on the us page.. germany says that they don't sell them anymore.. :/ Jul 17 13:45:04 :( Jul 17 13:45:45 counter Jul 17 13:45:45 think i'll have to connect my wlan stick like this: http://tabletblog.com/2006/01/usb-power-injector-for-usb-host-mode.html Jul 17 13:45:45 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 11:07:05 (0.463±0.5 days) (1752;248) Jul 17 13:46:30 or does anyone know of another battery powered hub than the cyberpower one? Jul 17 13:48:06 Technically yes, it's of no use to you. Jul 17 13:48:23 As it's one-off Jul 17 13:50:14 seen it Jul 17 13:50:16 I think Jul 17 13:50:19 ARGH Jul 17 13:50:23 wrong chan Jul 17 13:51:17 surely 'all' you need to do is splice the cable from the p1 device to the hub and provide +5 to the hub side... Jul 17 13:52:59 yes Jul 17 13:53:08 it's not complex Jul 17 13:53:28 Doing it compact, it is harder. Jul 17 13:53:34 k, was just checking, seems not hard. :) - for once Jul 17 13:54:51 isn't that you job SpeedEvil ;) .. backpack with battery + 4 port usb hub? :D Jul 17 13:55:02 s/you/your/ Jul 17 13:55:02 ScaredyCat meant: isn't that your job SpeedEvil ;) .. backpack with battery + 4 port usb hub? :D Jul 17 13:56:09 I'm contempating something similar. Jul 17 13:57:17 chop chop :) Jul 17 13:57:28 they'll be shipping soon :) Jul 17 13:59:38 the question is SpeedEvil, will I be able to run my usb heated gloves off it :) Jul 17 14:00:10 mornin Jul 17 14:14:41 rwhitby, i tried the openmakefile, but it stops everytime here : http://rafb.net/p/6fMawY17.html Jul 17 14:18:25 sio2, have you tried running ranlib on build/tmp/work/arm4vt-linux/lsof-4.77-r1/lib/liblsof.a ? Jul 17 14:18:52 sio2, also, have you tried 'make clean-package-lsof' then make update-makefile && make update && make setup && make openmoko-devel-image ? Jul 17 14:19:07 i had to do that once when i interrupted a compile and it left some files in a funny state Jul 17 14:19:22 i tried the second post of without openmoko-devel-image Jul 17 14:19:29 hmm Jul 17 14:19:49 well, you never know, manually ranlibbing it might do the trick Jul 17 14:20:07 ranlib: 'build/tmp/work/arm4vt-linux/lsof-4.77-r1/lib/liblsof.a': No such file Jul 17 14:20:39 s/4v/v4/ my bad :) Jul 17 14:20:53 i can't navigate these trees without tab completion Jul 17 14:21:06 'll try Jul 17 14:25:32 ranlib: 'build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/lsof-4.77-r1/lib/liblsof.a': No such file Jul 17 14:25:36 hmm the sam prob Jul 17 14:25:55 of course, it can't exist, if it breaks during compilation Jul 17 14:27:28 build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/lsof-4.77-r1/lsof_4.77_src/lib/liblsof.a that's the actual file. Jul 17 14:28:05 if yyou wanna try something crazy, try replacing it with http://galexander.org/liblsof.a from my moko build :) Jul 17 14:29:26 !source Jul 17 14:29:37 @source Jul 17 14:32:16 apt: source Jul 17 14:32:17 To build Debian packages from source code: first, add a deb-src line to your sources.list file. Then "apt-get build-dep _pkg_" and "apt-get -b source _pkg_" to retrieve the build-dependencies, and the source. The resulting .deb files will be in `pwd`. Jul 17 14:32:19 after ranlib, what i have to do? Jul 17 14:36:42 sio, rebuild it? Jul 17 14:36:58 anyone received their new phone yet? Jul 17 14:37:13 update-makefile && make update && make setup && make openmoko-devel-image did not work. same problem :( Jul 17 14:37:20 lol Jul 17 14:37:26 sio, sorry beats me :) Jul 17 14:37:27 -> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/071607-duke-iphone.html Jul 17 14:37:51 I replyed to the "THIS IS A DEVELOPER RELEASE, NOT A CONSUMER PRODUCT!|" with YES_I_DO and I haven't gotten any response back yet Jul 17 14:37:54 hahah my mom works in university tech support and said her office is ordering a couple iphones so they can pre-test for this problem Jul 17 14:38:17 mintee: I hear you aren't supposed to - only on CANCEL Jul 17 14:38:36 mintee, responses are only sent for errors Jul 17 14:38:38 Qwell[], ah, ok Jul 17 14:38:47 let's see if chanserv lets me do this... Jul 17 14:38:54 mintee: yes it's dumb that they don't acky your reply Jul 17 14:38:54 w00t Jul 17 14:39:06 is there anywhere i can check status that you know of? Jul 17 14:39:12 no Jul 17 14:39:18 you can't Jul 17 14:39:21 galexande lol Jul 17 14:39:26 you in the same boat as us Jul 17 14:39:30 i'm still operating on the assumption that my device shipped yesterday and will arrive friday Jul 17 14:39:37 roflmao Jul 17 14:39:55 did you get a cc confrmation galexande Jul 17 14:39:58 lol ScaredyCat Jul 17 14:40:00 galex: shipped from where? Jul 17 14:40:52 The twilight zone Jul 17 14:40:56 galex: if thats the case, mine better be here today. i know that it wont be, however Jul 17 14:41:13 Jason1: I have your tracking number... Jul 17 14:41:13 scared, in reality? no. in pretend-world: sure thing Jul 17 14:41:19 jason, california Jul 17 14:41:19 it's : 000000000000000 Jul 17 14:41:26 iirc, didn't they say they wouldn't be shipping out til the 17th? Jul 17 14:41:34 i can't believe that apple managed to fuck up ARP Jul 17 14:41:36 fic has not met a deadline yet...and these are self imposed to boot Jul 17 14:41:39 no, 16th is when they said Jul 17 14:41:41 i mean, i've never seen anything flood ARP requests Jul 17 14:41:56 jason, they got us on july 8th at least Jul 17 14:42:21 honestly, i think it's a good sign that they obviously aren't very good at the business side of it Jul 17 14:42:30 really? Jul 17 14:42:33 i've seen a lot of devices that were good at the business side of it but which i would not use, or would only grudgingly use Jul 17 14:42:44 it doesn't matter so much for us, but for mass market, they'll sink Jul 17 14:43:07 when they said "we hired the best and brightest kernel hackers and so on", they could be blowing smoke up our skirts, but when the ecommerce site was obviously written by a kernel hacker, you know they weren't fronting :) Jul 17 14:43:29 i'm still a pessimist about the mass-market prospects, that is decidedly someone else's problem Jul 17 14:43:29 lol galexande Jul 17 14:43:39 so true Jul 17 14:44:43 all they need to do is update us every now and then Jul 17 14:45:12 i wish they would too, but sean explained why he doesn't....when they're at crunchtime, they stop reading the email lists to save time Jul 17 14:45:14 it seems when ghe going gets tough, fic get silent Jul 17 14:45:25 so the lack of news indicates that they're stressed and busy Jul 17 14:45:35 which suggests to me that i will receive my phone eventually Jul 17 14:45:46 or just useless at communication ;) Jul 17 14:45:52 heh Jul 17 14:46:12 why are they busy? i would think that the device should be boxed and ready Jul 17 14:46:32 my biggest bitch is the 'remember' email Jul 17 14:46:47 jason, i have a strong suspicion that coders are learning cardboard origami over the weekend Jul 17 14:46:55 you can't remember something you were never told Jul 17 14:47:07 i wonder if they hit a wall and are trying to reflash 1000 devices Jul 17 14:47:19 * ScaredyCat flashes the channel Jul 17 14:47:26 jason, heh, i bet they would just ship us 1000 devices that panic on boot and let us reflash em :) Jul 17 14:47:26 OMG Jul 17 14:47:30 * ferric slaps ScaredyCat Jul 17 14:47:46 harder, harder Jul 17 14:47:51 galexande: it would appear that we have to reflash them for sure. Jul 17 14:47:56 (from the SH1 page) Jul 17 14:48:00 also, they're handling some amount of tech support.../.ers writing in asking what the price is if they sign a 2 year contract Jul 17 14:48:04 * SiO2 gives ferric a nunchako Jul 17 14:48:15 * ferric unleashes his ninja moves on ScaredyCat Jul 17 14:48:23 die pussy die! Jul 17 14:48:25 that would be diggers not /. ers galexande Jul 17 14:48:34 lol Jul 17 14:48:42 as long as those moves result in an openmoko Jul 17 14:48:43 heh i just use /. as a polite synonym for morons :) Jul 17 14:48:46 lol Jul 17 14:49:04 i bet jason1 hangs out on digg and writes nasty comments. Jul 17 14:49:06 * ferric runs. Jul 17 14:49:17 hehe Jul 17 14:49:21 maybe Jul 17 14:49:25 * ScaredyCat bets that's the only pussy pounding ferric has ever done. Jul 17 14:49:26 i knew it! Jul 17 14:49:30 haha Jul 17 14:49:37 ScaredyCat: that was horrible. Jul 17 14:49:41 it was Jul 17 14:49:52 I am evil, I must be stopped Jul 17 14:49:55 but true nonetheless :P Jul 17 14:49:58 *runsforthehills* Jul 17 14:50:06 but i'm gonna get my neo before you and then we'll see who cares about the pussy pounding~!@$ Jul 17 14:50:12 * galexande gives scaredy a couple squirts from the old punishment botttle Jul 17 14:50:39 heh, welcome phrozen77 :P Jul 17 14:50:55 pfft, your sprays are weak old man... Jul 17 14:51:25 ferric: you'll only get your's after the 1924 other people Jul 17 14:51:41 1924...jesus Jul 17 14:51:50 why do so many ppl want neo's? Jul 17 14:51:57 I don't think jesus would have anything to do with this. Jul 17 14:52:08 r u kiddn me? jesus saves Jul 17 14:52:12 ferric: cause it's sexy and the babes want you to have it Jul 17 14:52:17 oh yeah Jul 17 14:52:17 with the halifax Jul 17 14:52:22 it's a chick-magnet Jul 17 14:52:36 yeah, bot with the same pole Jul 17 14:52:39 "is that a unix box in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" Jul 17 14:52:40 but Jul 17 14:52:43 man my friends almost left me the other day for this guy with an iPhone Jul 17 14:52:56 seriously, if i don't get a neo soon i'll be friendless Jul 17 14:52:58 'friend' Jul 17 14:53:09 i saw someone who looked suspiciously like our mayor sitting outside showing some girl his iphone Jul 17 14:53:18 haha - i knew you were gonna pick on that you FearfulPussy Jul 17 14:53:21 "come back!! it's opensource!" Jul 17 14:53:22 lo Jul 17 14:53:24 l Jul 17 14:53:28 Fatal: haha Jul 17 14:53:29 lmao Jul 17 14:53:35 "wanna feel my iphone" Jul 17 14:53:44 galexande: hhahaha Jul 17 14:53:52 ok peace, i'm off to work Jul 17 14:53:55 lol Jul 17 14:54:00 :) Jul 17 14:54:19 * ScaredyCat just ate a big bag of jelly babies... Jul 17 14:54:30 * ScaredyCat feels sick :( Jul 17 14:54:40 ScaredyCat: someone at work just bought in a big bag of jelly ladies... Jul 17 14:54:56 jelly ladies! Jul 17 14:55:00 ScaredyCat: mostly accurate Jul 17 14:55:06 :) Jul 17 14:55:16 jelly ladies? Jul 17 14:55:20 of course, they're sugar-coated and thankfully don't have any hairs... Jul 17 14:55:28 lol Jul 17 14:55:30 cats don't eat jellies Jul 17 14:55:35 mintee: yeah, they got them at copenhagen airport Jul 17 14:56:00 * ScaredyCat pukes on galexande to prove cats do. Jul 17 14:56:30 want a FREE iPhone? Go here to Score Yourself a FREE iPhone http://www.YourFreeiPhone.com/index.php?ref=3922029 Super easy. Jul 17 14:56:30 dkruz: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 17 14:56:44 spam! Jul 17 14:56:52 ops, kick him please Jul 17 14:57:01 wow, i'm shocked Jul 17 14:57:01 Well this must be the least appropriate channel for that particular spam... Jul 17 14:57:01 kick kick kick kick kick kick kick kick kick kick kick Jul 17 14:57:03 want a FREE iPhone? Go here to Score Yourself a FREE iPhone http://www.YourFreeiPhone.com/index.php?ref=3922029 Super easy. Jul 17 14:57:04 the iphone isn't free Jul 17 14:57:05 :) Jul 17 14:57:12 but his mom is Jul 17 14:57:13 :) Jul 17 14:57:14 want a FREE iPhone? Go here to Score Yourself a FREE iPhone http://www.YourFreeiPhone.com/index.php?ref=3922029 Super easy. Jul 17 14:57:17 even if it costs nothing, it still isn't free Jul 17 14:57:20 someone kill that guy Jul 17 14:57:23 :)))))))))))))))))))))))))) Jul 17 14:57:24 want a FREE iPhone? Go here to Score Yourself a FREE iPhone http://www.YourFreeiPhone.com/index.php?ref=3922029 Super easy. Jul 17 14:57:28 ./ignore dkruz Jul 17 14:57:32 * ScaredyCat stabs dkruz Jul 17 14:57:35 want a FREE iPhone? Go here to Score Yourself a FREE iPhone http://www.YourFreeiPhone.com/index.php?ref=3922029 Super easy. Jul 17 14:57:37 and...done Jul 17 14:57:37 so, anyway Jul 17 14:57:37 /ignore dkruz Jul 17 14:57:39 awwwwwwwwwww Jul 17 14:57:43 mintee: yeah, but it fills the channel log with link spam Jul 17 14:57:50 heh. Jul 17 14:57:59 what ironically amusing spam. Jul 17 14:58:00 Stephmw, yeah, i know... but it helps me Jul 17 14:58:03 true...kline Jul 17 14:58:16 orospakr: isn't it surreal to see it in this chan? Jul 17 14:58:20 lol Jul 17 14:58:21 jadams: yup. Jul 17 14:58:22 * denny waves at seanw Jul 17 14:58:27 speaking of the iphone... !SPAM http://duggmirror.com/apple/The_iPhone_is_a_piece_of_shit_and_so_is_your_face/?u=iphone Jul 17 14:58:29 * Stephmw welcomes the ops Jul 17 14:58:45 first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they spam you, then you win Jul 17 14:58:49 Hey denny Jul 17 14:58:53 ahaha Jul 17 14:58:56 lol Jul 17 14:58:57 thanks guys Jul 17 14:59:00 i for one welcome our ircop-overlords Jul 17 14:59:01 :D Jul 17 14:59:04 * denny grins Jul 17 14:59:06 * Stephmw hugs seanw and denny Jul 17 14:59:28 you could ask the channel owner to run this command next time he's around: /msg chanserv access #openmoko add *!*@freenode/staff/* 10 Jul 17 14:59:36 gives us a bit more leeway in how soon we can intervene for you Jul 17 14:59:51 denny: thanks, will do Jul 17 14:59:54 denny: hmm, staffers don't automatically have access on a chan? Jul 17 15:00:00 depends i'd say Jul 17 15:00:07 we can Jul 17 15:00:08 oper-override might help there Jul 17 15:00:12 if available that is Jul 17 15:00:12 but we usually don't exercise it Jul 17 15:00:15 I see Jul 17 15:00:25 explicitly putting us on the access list gives us permission to help out in borderline cases Jul 17 15:00:25 okay Jul 17 15:00:32 I have to study now Jul 17 15:00:35 bye Jul 17 15:00:38 otherwise we tend not to intervene unless the problem is drastic and/or network-wide Jul 17 15:00:45 this guy was network-wide, hence his departure :) Jul 17 15:00:47 woglinde: bye Jul 17 15:00:47 mickey|slides /me points up at dennys comments Jul 17 15:00:50 :> Jul 17 15:00:51 denny: I'll consider for other channels :D Jul 17 15:00:56 cool, thanks Jul 17 15:01:22 Heh, I haven't checked maddox in a while. Jul 17 15:01:27 *blink* Jul 17 15:01:27 So anybody want to donate to the "Give Me a Neo fund"? Jul 17 15:01:27 dT1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 17 15:01:35 hahaha Jul 17 15:01:38 hehe :) Jul 17 15:01:56 Its a worthy cause Jul 17 15:02:02 ;-) Jul 17 15:02:14 is there a faq entry for 'can I has some money for a neo?' Jul 17 15:02:23 lol Jul 17 15:02:26 hah Jul 17 15:02:29 * phrozen77 goes off to reg that domain Jul 17 15:02:33 god-damned hippies Jul 17 15:02:36 next to icanhascheezburger Jul 17 15:02:37 :P Jul 17 15:03:08 This is opensource, we are commies not hippies ;-) Jul 17 15:03:21 speak for yourself, dt1 Jul 17 15:03:21 screw you guy, I'm no commie :) Jul 17 15:03:34 smell my rank hippie odor!! Jul 17 15:03:44 (if only i were kidding) Jul 17 15:03:49 galexande: ewww. Jul 17 15:04:02 seeing a flaw in the system is different from centralizing the means of production in the hands of the government :) Jul 17 15:04:33 jadams: yes Jul 17 15:04:34 what if i went on a hunger strike until they charge my credit card Jul 17 15:04:45 galexande: then you should hope they charge soon :) Jul 17 15:05:09 galexande: you'll get very very thin Jul 17 15:15:49 how long does building the makefile take? Jul 17 15:16:51 a little OT: any ideas if ccache can be used with pvmgmake... or even if there'd be any point? Jul 17 15:18:52 edistar: depends on the hardware... Jul 17 15:19:02 takes me 5 hours from scratch Jul 17 15:19:07 xeon, 2 ghz Jul 17 15:19:09 4gb ram Jul 17 15:19:20 raid 5 sata, 160mb/sek Jul 17 15:19:43 wiat.. I'll just do the calculation... Jul 17 15:19:45 .... Jul 17 15:19:47 .. Jul 17 15:19:50 ;) Jul 17 15:19:51 6 houes Jul 17 15:19:53 oo Jul 17 15:19:56 6 hours Jul 17 15:20:02 are you joking? Jul 17 15:20:06 give or take 3 hours Jul 17 15:20:11 okey ;) Jul 17 15:20:37 edistar: software, hardware or mobo raid? Jul 17 15:20:40 my box is a dual Xeon 2.4ghz gb ram, takes 308 minutes Jul 17 15:20:49 Stephmw: hw raid Jul 17 15:21:20 ScaredyCat: well, I have a xeon with 2 cores.. like you Jul 17 15:21:26 2gb ram Jul 17 15:21:31 edistar: interesting - 3ware or LSI? - I'm trying to find a good configuration for my LSI card Jul 17 15:21:47 I have 2 physical xeons Jul 17 15:21:50 3ware I think, it's just borrowed.. Jul 17 15:22:07 ScaredyCat: thats nice, is that a little fasted? my cores share 4mb cache Jul 17 15:22:17 s/fasted/faster Jul 17 15:22:32 my cache is pathetic Jul 17 15:22:46 512mb each Jul 17 15:23:01 512k? Jul 17 15:23:04 lol Jul 17 15:23:05 ya Jul 17 15:23:08 mb Jul 17 15:23:10 wtf Jul 17 15:23:23 anyone tried distcc with the moko build? Jul 17 15:23:43 * ScaredyCat is thinking about it... Jul 17 15:23:56 but I'm not sure it's worth it... Jul 17 15:24:06 (for me) Jul 17 15:24:23 what is distcc? Jul 17 15:24:33 distributed cc Jul 17 15:24:54 compiles different bits on different machines at the same time Jul 17 15:25:11 speed things up if you have lots of machines and lots to compile Jul 17 15:25:29 okey Jul 17 15:25:40 is good for gentoo, when you have access to the earthsimulatior ;) Jul 17 15:25:51 lol Jul 17 15:26:27 how quick ? Jul 17 15:26:30 my make openmoko-devel-image broke off, if I restart it and correct the errors, does it need to do everything again or can it just continue where it stopped? Jul 17 15:26:39 it'll carry on Jul 17 15:26:45 :) Jul 17 15:27:01 what is bitbake exactly? Jul 17 15:27:31 some weird thing... I have very little experience of... Jul 17 15:27:37 a tool for commies ;-) Jul 17 15:27:54 I get the feeling it's like a liibrary of how to build stuff Jul 17 15:27:57 I ran distcc on the render cluster in work Jul 17 15:27:58 ah Jul 17 15:28:00 it was nice Jul 17 15:28:18 I think its like Gentoo's portage system Jul 17 15:28:23 It's a build tool, based on portage/emerge from gentoo. Jul 17 15:28:26 essentially Jul 17 15:28:40 ewon: I am trying to convince the teacher at school to let me use the student pcs as a cluster, but no success yet Jul 17 15:28:57 edistar, it is easier to apologize than to ask permission Jul 17 15:28:58 edistar: How old are you? Jul 17 15:29:04 haha Jul 17 15:29:19 ewanm89_laptop: 17 Jul 17 15:29:32 :( I'm nolonger the youngest. Jul 17 15:29:37 lol Jul 17 15:29:48 galexande: I am setting up the school OS and everything with friends, so I suppose it will work soon Jul 17 15:29:49 that's how it starts... Jul 17 15:29:54 dammit. distcc can only use up to 10-20 machines (according to the distcc page) Jul 17 15:30:05 then the policemen start to look 12 ewanm89_laptop... Jul 17 15:30:08 edistar: http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Cluster_Live_CD Jul 17 15:30:11 then you know you're old Jul 17 15:30:50 ScaredyCat: that wasn't on halloween you noticed the police looked 12 was it? Jul 17 15:31:17 no, it was when I got stopped for jaywalking Jul 17 15:31:24 hahahaha Jul 17 15:31:34 in .nl? Jul 17 15:31:41 You're not a copper, you're like 12.. Jul 17 15:32:01 then, bzzzzzt an o Jul 17 15:32:07 I was on the floo Jul 17 15:32:08 r Jul 17 15:32:32 jaywalking=for our american friends :) Jul 17 15:35:14 firefox && flash is just broken Jul 17 15:36:18 * anrp deletes "firefox &&" from that statement Jul 17 15:37:07 Flash for Linux is broken Jul 17 15:38:03 I've never understood why Miguel de Icaza is so willing to make an impl. of Microsoft libs, but not just come up with a competing product that is cross-platform and better than MS's Jul 17 15:38:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:JoSch]] [[User:Fradeve11]] [[Building_a_hello_world_application]] [[FAQ]] [[Wishlist:Wikipedia_Mirror]] [[Alternate_colours/materials]] [[Wish_List]] Jul 17 15:38:22 miguel's a sucker. Jul 17 15:38:41 All he is doing is promoting the usage of MS's junk Jul 17 15:38:44 i remember when .net was introduced and miguel jumped on board and said "this isn't going to be another embrace-and-extend microsoft-only festival, we're going to bring this to the world" Jul 17 15:38:58 what is it, 8 years later? Jul 17 15:39:19 woudln't it be substantially easier to make compatibility, than to completely rework something similar to what MS is doing? Jul 17 15:39:34 It would be substantially substandard too though Jul 17 15:39:36 dT1: if you make the assumption microsoft tech X is going to be dominant, then an open implementation of the same tech would be great. but that first assumption wasnt true in .net Jul 17 15:39:54 yeah, microsoft managed to embrace-and-extend their own standard, and then mostly not use it anyways Jul 17 15:41:12 I just don't understand why Miguel just wants to be eternally saying we can almost run most thinks for .Net version x when they could've just run with the CLI and made their own libs and did it better Jul 17 15:41:14 mono is all open source anyway, so I fail to see the issue here Jul 17 15:44:37 summatusmentis: it only matters because then you end up with a lot of free software tied to crap libraries Jul 17 15:44:45 from what I've noticed, people are avoiding Mono like the plague because of the possible patent risks. Jul 17 15:45:06 unknown_lamer: tied to mono libraries right? Jul 17 15:45:19 summatusmentis: to all of the .NET clone libs Jul 17 15:45:19 or maybe I'm completely misunderstanding what mono is Jul 17 15:45:28 right, which are open source? Jul 17 15:45:30 summatusmentis: assuming that .NET sucks (I never bothered looking at it) Jul 17 15:45:45 not all the mono libs are .net clone libs, e.g. gtk# et al. Jul 17 15:45:46 that's a big assumption to make Jul 17 15:45:51 it sucks indirectly, for sure Jul 17 15:45:57 but from a technical standpoint it's not bad Jul 17 15:46:10 from a legal and moral perspective not so much ~_)~ Jul 17 15:46:20 "not bad" is not good enough :) Jul 17 15:46:28 ;/ Jul 17 15:46:41 otoh, "all xyz sucks, a particular one just sucks less" Jul 17 15:47:09 I'm torn between cl-dbus and getting the clisp ffi working on arm first Jul 17 15:50:48 you know, what this iphone thing reaolly tells us that it's absolutely trivial to dos a wireless network where security is obtained through vpns Jul 17 15:51:45 have they pinpointed the cause yet? Jul 17 15:51:45 vpns? Jul 17 15:51:55 * Stephmw betted on arp poisoning by dodgy iphone tcp stack Jul 17 15:52:15 anrp, your choices are open, vpn, or wap/wep/whatever Jul 17 15:52:44 most universities seem to know that wap doesn't work so they let anyone connect to the 802.11b, but you can't send any packets through to da iddernet until you register to the vpn Jul 17 15:52:51 but you can send arp packets all day long Jul 17 15:53:02 authpf Jul 17 15:53:16 no joy until you authenticate, and after that we just log you Jul 17 15:53:31 surveillance is a very effective abuse-stopper :) Jul 17 15:54:21 plus we do some connection-rate limiting to make life difficult for viruses and worms while still allowing people to load 20 firefox tabs all at once Jul 17 15:58:53 hooray, I have room for an OE dev env now that I found and nuked my old series60 stuff Jul 17 15:59:00 * unknown_lamer is not lamenting the loss of the s60 sdks Jul 17 16:15:30 re Jul 17 16:22:30 re PBeck Jul 17 16:23:45 oh yay someone got the clisp ffi working on the nokia n800 Jul 17 16:25:20 hey ferric Jul 17 16:30:53 what is the clisp ffi? Jul 17 16:31:24 265m51 Jul 17 16:32:30 don-o: clisp foreign function interface (it lets you open libs and then bind them into lisp at runtim) Jul 17 16:32:47 don-o: which is a neccessary to use lisp to write stuff using the libmoko* stuff Jul 17 16:33:02 now I can focus on writing cl-dbus Jul 17 16:33:03 lisp scares me :) Jul 17 16:33:37 things other than lisp scare me Jul 17 16:33:47 I accidentally picked up scheme when I was fifteen Jul 17 16:33:50 seven years later ... Jul 17 16:33:55 that was the best accident ever Jul 17 16:34:02 is lisp a 'functional' language? Jul 17 16:34:06 it can be Jul 17 16:34:10 lisp is an everything language Jul 17 16:34:29 cool :) Jul 17 16:34:30 and I really do mean that (not being a hur hur paul graham sez lisp is cool dork) Jul 17 16:34:44 common lisp standardized current lisp practice and has compat for stuff going back to maclisp Jul 17 16:35:07 so you have the heavy maclisp imperative influence along with the academic functional lisp influences Jul 17 16:35:15 and the most flexible object system known to man Jul 17 16:35:51 on top of those three models you can build any other so there are a nice things like declarative logic languages embedded transparantly in CL nowadays Jul 17 16:51:36 forth is better :) Jul 17 16:54:55 logo ftw Jul 17 16:55:58 ScaredyCat: logo is a dialect of lisp :-) Jul 17 16:57:26 yeah, but it seems about as much use as.. Jul 17 16:58:22 ...but then I still have trouble working out why people think python is so good... Jul 17 16:59:14 especially on an embedded device... Jul 17 16:59:16 ScaredyCat: I'm at least 10x productive in terms of actual working code in lisp vs c Jul 17 16:59:32 for embedded stuff? Jul 17 16:59:36 ScaredyCat: clisp uses ~6M of RAM on start and doesn't grow significantly worse over time Jul 17 16:59:43 surely cycles are more important Jul 17 16:59:44 ScaredyCat, nah, on an embedded device we want jre and jpython on that. Jul 17 16:59:44 ScaredyCat: it is also reasonably fast Jul 17 17:00:16 I'm not sure I want java either Jul 17 17:00:17 ScaredyCat: I wouldn't write the OS in it, but it's fine for applications. Keep in mind that CL's heyday was the early 90s. Jul 17 17:00:20 * ScaredyCat hides Jul 17 17:00:25 java is too heavyweight Jul 17 17:00:37 gcj compiled code is ok Jul 17 17:00:43 (excepting j2me I guess) Jul 17 17:02:22 depends on what's heavyweight, and how many apps you plan on running :) Jul 17 17:02:30 unknown_lamer: j2me can typically run in well under 2mb heap Jul 17 17:03:16 I still think it's a lot Jul 17 17:04:52 ScaredyCat: embedded hardware is on par with normal desktop hardware from tenish years ago Jul 17 17:05:12 a 100Mhz p1 with 16M of RAM was my primary dev workstation for a looooong time and I used lisp fine on there Jul 17 17:05:30 i remember when i bought my first 128MB stick of ram, i booted up, loaded X, loaded netscape, quit everrything, and then loaded X and netscape again, with my eye on the (dark) hard drive light Jul 17 17:05:39 maybe netscape 3 is what we should run :) Jul 17 17:05:55 khtml is smaller than netscape 3 :-) Jul 17 17:05:57 maybe freedos :P Jul 17 17:06:10 who needs a gui anyway Jul 17 17:06:17 the mozilla platform is a bunch of good ideas with horrible implementations Jul 17 17:06:21 yeah, gui's are for wimps Jul 17 17:06:28 scaredy, pun? Jul 17 17:06:30 guis are good, wimp uis are bad Jul 17 17:06:35 and develop in assembly lang ? Jul 17 17:06:42 i want to see an iPhone-clone UI Jul 17 17:07:02 assembly language? luxury! machine code is where it's at. 1s and 0s, down at the metal Jul 17 17:07:06 * ScaredyCat send don-o to the apple store Jul 17 17:07:09 * don-o probably wont carry a stylus Jul 17 17:07:18 galexande: yes... Jul 17 17:07:46 pffft, in my day we had to melt sand to make the chips Jul 17 17:07:50 coding in 0's n 1s is waste of time Jul 17 17:07:57 we used to get up before we wnt to bed.. Jul 17 17:08:15 1s? You have 1s? You spoiled brats. Back in my days...! Jul 17 17:08:33 well, when i say 1s, i mean the absence of 0s... Jul 17 17:09:03 we used to share out 0's with 10 other companies Jul 17 17:09:21 and how did you count to 10? Jul 17 17:09:30 god this dinosaur festival is reminding me of a mainframe conferenec Jul 17 17:09:34 On paper. Duh. Jul 17 17:09:37 01 10 Jul 17 17:10:04 0 00 000 0000... Jul 17 17:10:10 8) Jul 17 17:10:16 Inventive. Jul 17 17:10:16 * ScaredyCat gives up on the binary joke Jul 17 17:10:24 ScaredyCat: unary! Jul 17 17:10:34 lol - yes Jul 17 17:10:36 Binary is for n00bs. Jul 17 17:11:43 the kids today.... Jul 17 17:11:45 minimoz? Jul 17 17:11:53 ... don't know how lucky they are Jul 17 17:12:03 yeah. Jul 17 17:13:03 * ScaredyCat rearranges his punched cards Jul 17 17:13:16 guys this stopped being funny, you're making me hate my dayjob Jul 17 17:13:33 galexande, why? Jul 17 17:13:36 i spend all day feeding FB80 records into a virtual punchcard machine Jul 17 17:13:56 hehehehe.... Jul 17 17:14:07 A virtual punchcard machine? Wtf is that supposed to be? Jul 17 17:14:41 could they not get a virtual punchcard monkey to go with the virtual machine? Jul 17 17:14:44 it's OS/360 (rebranded: z/OS!) running on an emulator, where all I/O takes place across boundaries which emulate punchcards Jul 17 17:15:03 that's so retarded Jul 17 17:15:13 and popular Jul 17 17:15:41 probably because they paid through the nose for the everything 500 years ago Jul 17 17:15:56 galexande, how cool, you're working in retro it shop! Jul 17 17:16:27 lol yeah Jul 17 17:16:27 galexande: offer to sell them an openmoko that does everything thier existing app does, and probably faster :-) Jul 17 17:16:31 what does the emulator run on? Jul 17 17:16:32 galexande, you're probably all waring afros 'n hippie clothes :) Jul 17 17:16:39 no way business suits Jul 17 17:16:40 ;) Jul 17 17:16:43 *wearing Jul 17 17:17:30 happy, a licensed overpriced PC Jul 17 17:17:39 ouch Jul 17 17:17:45 i take it you're not running hercules then Jul 17 17:17:59 ... i wonder how many mips herc. would get on a core 2 quad Jul 17 17:18:01 heh happy no we're afraid of the legal ramifications Jul 17 17:18:04 (if it's smp aware) Jul 17 17:18:13 and the licensed emulator we're running is actually substantially faster than hercules Jul 17 17:18:16 cool Jul 17 17:18:20 not $60k faster :( Jul 17 17:18:23 o2 Jul 17 17:18:25 ouch Jul 17 17:18:31 but it's about to become unlicensed, and then we're all sorts of fucked Jul 17 17:18:33 $60k is still cheaper than maintaining a legacy mainframe Jul 17 17:18:38 yearly contract? Jul 17 17:19:04 now i could see running the old software under VM or whatever they call it now on a new mainframe if it's used for other stuff too Jul 17 17:19:14 yeah, and ibm sued the guys on the other end, so it's all up. their official strategy now is that since the mainframe market is shrinking, the only way they can make enough money to justify the thousands of employees is by having a complete monopoly on the market Jul 17 17:19:21 which, oddly, was their strategy when they entered the market and at every point in between, also Jul 17 17:19:25 yeah Jul 17 17:19:34 suprise! buttsecx! Jul 17 17:19:36 sorry. Jul 17 17:19:39 hahaha Jul 17 17:20:06 our choices fall between hercules and renting time on a mainframe, or buying the smallest z/series mainframe Jul 17 17:20:15 galexande, nooooo! IBM is like all fluffy and pink and good and we all love ibm! Jul 17 17:20:19 how much is the smallest mainframe? Jul 17 17:20:25 Cause it like uses linux. Jul 17 17:20:25 happy, on the order of $100k i think Jul 17 17:20:28 ow Jul 17 17:20:35 decde -jfo0 ~/lsd.pra Jul 17 17:20:43 IBM thinks that we're all fluffy and pink because they use our products, so maybe we can get a blessing to use hercules Jul 17 17:20:50 yeah Jul 17 17:20:54 or something Jul 17 17:21:06 i'm kinda surpised they don't license for herc legitmately... i guess that would eat their biz too much Jul 17 17:21:35 so far they've been completely mum on it. they don't want to alienate all teh linux developers that use it, but they don't want to bless it either because it would totally destroy their legal stance Jul 17 17:21:54 yeah Jul 17 17:21:55 so for the past 3 years every CD comes with a wrapper which says not to run it on hercules, but there's some nudging and winking going on at the trade shows Jul 17 17:22:01 lol Jul 17 17:22:13 don't get *caught* running it on hercules Jul 17 17:22:22 ^ in produciton Jul 17 17:22:34 s/produciton/production/ Jul 17 17:22:34 happycube meant: ^ in production Jul 17 17:22:54 every time i get a new palmtop i show it to my boss "look how much faster than the mainframe this is" Jul 17 17:23:08 heh Jul 17 17:23:14 lol Jul 17 17:23:35 "yeah, but does it have 99.999999% uptime?" Jul 17 17:23:44 ^ legit question in his position Jul 17 17:23:54 my palmtop has so much uptime it wrapped around to zero Jul 17 17:23:57 heh Jul 17 17:24:00 (no kidding, it blew my mind) Jul 17 17:24:01 happy: i work in banking. same issues here. ;) Jul 17 17:24:27 where i work it's like "oh, the six year old dimension 4100 server hasn't borken yet..." Jul 17 17:24:38 we do have backups. Jul 17 17:24:45 man, and, not to bore you all with mainframes when we could be talking about laforge's blog, but mainframes are *easy* to crash Jul 17 17:25:13 ^ made me look :P Jul 17 17:25:56 heh... how easy? Jul 17 17:26:19 happy: i'm starting to move this environment to an emulated environment, so we can change the hardware without the software noticing... many very customized qemu setups. :) Jul 17 17:26:55 :) Jul 17 17:26:58 sweet Jul 17 17:30:12 counter? Jul 17 17:30:12 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 09:14:51 (0.385±0.4 days) (1753;248) Jul 17 17:31:07 counter rolled over. Jul 17 17:31:13 is that another gestimate aloril / aloril2 Jul 17 17:32:59 hey daMaestro Jul 17 17:33:13 hello duffyd Jul 17 17:33:28 the ups truck drives by / the driver doesn't see me / no neo today Jul 17 17:33:31 duffyd, good to see you in this channel Jul 17 17:33:38 daMaestro: :-) Jul 17 17:33:58 daMaestro: gotta support the local Taiwanese effort (considering I'm currently staying in Taiwan) Jul 17 17:34:21 daMaestro: you getting a Neo? Jul 17 17:34:33 duffyd, yes; i'm order 1964 Jul 17 17:34:49 daMaestro: cool, me too Jul 17 17:35:03 daMaestro: always wanted to hack on an embedded device, now is my chance Jul 17 17:35:08 GTA01 is going to be nice.. to just have something to work on Jul 17 17:35:15 yup Jul 17 17:35:16 but GTA02 is really what will be cool Jul 17 17:35:23 for sure Jul 17 17:35:45 daMaestro: so you more of a hardware developer than a Plone/web dev? Jul 17 17:36:03 no, not really Jul 17 17:36:04 (shipping update on ML) Jul 17 17:36:11 i kinda do it all Jul 17 17:36:13 Kero, link? Jul 17 17:36:20 mail Jul 17 17:36:23 Kero: yay! Jul 17 17:36:56 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/007210.html Jul 17 17:36:58 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Shipping update Jul 17 17:36:59 there you go :) Jul 17 17:37:03 so the neo's are here. :) Jul 17 17:37:07 oy, I beat the script :) Jul 17 17:37:12 yeah Jul 17 17:37:38 * ferric is 2712 so will probably have to wait for the second half. Jul 17 17:37:49 omg Jul 17 17:37:54 * Kero is 1844 Jul 17 17:37:56 unless there were drop-outs between 1800 and 2700. Jul 17 17:38:02 1841. take that, kero Jul 17 17:38:08 YES_I_DO Jul 17 17:38:11 haha Jul 17 17:38:18 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Building_a_hello_world_application]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Main_Page/fr]] [[User:Thomas01]] [[Talk:Building_a_hello_world_application]] [[Mokopedia]] [[User:JoSch]] Jul 17 17:38:22 but I assume YOU_TOO Jul 17 17:38:24 "Before the end of this week you should see a charge on your credit cards." Jul 17 17:38:31 well the mobo on my freebsd box died, so i don't have a dev environment anyway. Jul 17 17:38:32 wtf, do it NOW! Jul 17 17:38:43 stop knobbing about Jul 17 17:39:34 cleared customs! \o/ Jul 17 17:39:41 half Jul 17 17:40:18 hi Jul 17 17:40:30 so what time is it in ca ? Jul 17 17:40:33 i hate customs. twhen you've got a suitcase full of touristy knicknacks, they don't even look at the form, but the one time you've got three kilos of cocaine stashed in a teddy bear they strip search you Jul 17 17:40:38 scaredy, 10am Jul 17 17:40:39 ish Jul 17 17:40:45 ScaredyCat: GMT-7 Jul 17 17:40:55 don-o, daylight savings Jul 17 17:40:58 10:40 Jul 17 17:41:08 er, i guess that's why it's not GMT-8? Jul 17 17:41:10 so they could ship today.. Jul 17 17:41:23 Pacific Daylight Time (PDT) -0700 UTC Jul 17 17:41:53 i have a suspicion that whomever is receiving the package in the US hasn't given the slightest consideration to how they will charge 1000 credit cards, print 1000 invoices and shipping labels, and fold 1000 cardboard boxes Jul 17 17:42:08 and that the resto f today is going to be used deciding where to start :) Jul 17 17:42:21 galexande: I only care about the first 8 :) Jul 17 17:42:29 heh Jul 17 17:42:48 ugh what if they saw how popular the black/silver was and decided not to ship any orange in the first batch Jul 17 17:42:52 i could have fucked myself!! Jul 17 17:43:38 naaa.. yours will be worth 10 x ours in years to come Jul 17 17:43:53 hink of it as your pension :) Jul 17 17:43:56 t Jul 17 17:44:15 hoahaha Jul 17 17:45:12 * ScaredyCat sticks a monitor on cc Jul 17 17:45:35 Sean writes as if its the CC charge that we're all waiting for. Jul 17 17:45:43 Damn.. Shipped later this week. I'll be away for two weeks starting saturday.. :( Jul 17 17:45:51 yeah... we don't really care if they do that bit Jul 17 17:46:01 CM: me too :'( Jul 17 17:46:16 I just know it'll arrive next week Jul 17 17:46:32 my assumption is that they've spent the last 7 days "oh, in order to turn credit card numbres into cash on hand, we have to contact a merchant bank? what a lot of work!" so they've freshly been reminded by merchant bankers that they can't charge until they're ready to ship Jul 17 17:46:34 and get left on the dorrstep by the ups guy Jul 17 17:46:52 so does anyone have recommendations for a good socket 939 motherboard? Jul 17 17:47:07 scaredy, you could leave a note on the door asking him to leave it in your shed or whatever Jul 17 17:47:08 firefox can work on openMoko? Jul 17 17:47:16 pitux, if you have that kind of patience sure. Jul 17 17:47:41 galexandre gecko will be low on openMoko? Jul 17 17:47:43 galexande: a big sign, saying "please leave that expensive kit in the shed".... Jul 17 17:47:56 ".. oh and take the sign down too please" Jul 17 17:47:59 hahaha Jul 17 17:48:24 pitux, well firefox on my box eats 300MB just to say hello, and the neo only has 128MB RAM Jul 17 17:48:28 and i don't think you want to swap on SD Jul 17 17:48:36 ha Jul 17 17:48:52 Swapping over SD isn't a problwm. Jul 17 17:48:56 presumably someone will figure out how to compile gecko to only need 128MB of ram, but Jul 17 17:49:01 hahahah i was wondering how long that would take speedevil Jul 17 17:49:03 After doing the numbers. Jul 17 17:49:19 you have to forgive speedevil, he inherited his computer from his grandpa Jul 17 17:49:21 I can only say that I am at the moment using a laptop with 128M RAM. Jul 17 17:49:22 ff eats memory anyway... Jul 17 17:49:30 I need xulrunner work on openMoko Jul 17 17:49:32 And have 16 tabs open. Jul 17 17:49:41 And it's quite snappy enough. Jul 17 17:49:46 you only hve to leave it running for a day or two and it's eaten all the ram in the building Jul 17 17:50:02 So, I need to click 'restart' every day. Jul 17 17:50:04 pitux, the most likely browser that will seem snappy to non-octogenarians is ultimately derived from konqueror/safari, so you might want to see if those do whtat you need Jul 17 17:50:47 Tab switching in well under .2s is just fine IMO. Jul 17 17:51:18 i can barely stand firefox's slowness on my ibook Jul 17 17:51:36 we can always use dillo Jul 17 17:51:43 or lynx. Jul 17 17:52:09 doesn't the latest links support images and javascript also? Jul 17 17:52:44 images ? maybe using the aalib then ? ^^ Jul 17 17:53:42 openMoko can play flash?? Jul 17 17:53:50 openMoko/neo1973 of course :p Jul 17 17:54:40 does dillo support XMLHttpRequest ? Jul 17 17:54:55 hahahahahah scaredycat, does msdos support SMP? Jul 17 17:55:10 oO Jul 17 17:55:15 I thought dillo was supposed to be quite good. Jul 17 17:55:25 heh Jul 17 17:55:40 maybe it's grown substantially, but last time i used it it was basically lynx with a GUI Jul 17 17:55:41 neo1973 can play flash or not? Jul 17 17:55:49 no java,javascript, barely tables Jul 17 17:56:21 it reminded me of chimera Jul 17 17:56:42 http://links.twibright.com/features.php Jul 17 17:57:16 neo1973 can play flash or not? Jul 17 17:57:35 ugh it looks like simply updating dillo to gtk2 would be a project Jul 17 17:58:03 pitux: not simply Jul 17 17:58:04 pitux, my guess is that macromedia or whoever don't make a flash product for arm-linux Jul 17 17:58:13 galexande: yup Jul 17 17:58:15 pitux, but mplayer would probably still read flv Jul 17 17:58:44 it would be nice to have the smallest browser that supports CSS and just enough javascript to manage a submit button Jul 17 17:58:48 and i think that's what khtml/webkit provides Jul 17 17:59:00 thx Jul 17 17:59:04 Indeed. Jul 17 17:59:11 someone that knows ipkg needs to package http://links.twibright.com/download.php Jul 17 17:59:12 there is an open source flash player that does the vector graphics crap Jul 17 17:59:14 but it's hit-or-miss Jul 17 17:59:17 but there is open source flash player? Jul 17 17:59:32 gnash, but it's not really useful yet Jul 17 17:59:39 it still needs help. Jul 17 17:59:58 well, adobe just setup their own repo for the linux flash player Jul 17 18:00:03 so maybe they will fire off some arm builds Jul 17 18:00:10 afaik, there *are* arm builds Jul 17 18:00:31 meh, even flash for linux x86 is horribly flaky ime Jul 17 18:00:50 Gnash to the rescue. Too bad it's not yet usable. Jul 17 18:00:51 it's firefox Jul 17 18:01:11 cjb, yes it is *nod* Jul 17 18:01:19 I find Flash quite useless. It's mainly used for streaming video. Jul 17 18:01:22 opera works fine, ff always locks up if I try to close a page with flash Jul 17 18:01:36 zipola, i used to be a web developer, i totally agree Jul 17 18:01:44 i think its gratuitous and unnecessary Jul 17 18:01:50 it's the opposite for me. flash in ff is the most usable/closeable/watchable than in opera and konq Jul 17 18:01:54 cjb_ie: wah, change your nick :) Jul 17 18:01:56 and incredibly bad for the things people use it for, say like flash games Jul 17 18:02:17 MacNorth: It's usable, so long as I don;t go to another page Jul 17 18:02:18 cjb: meh, i already changed it from cjb about 5 years ago Jul 17 18:02:23 streaming video is it's killer use tho Jul 17 18:02:39 tabs, pages, web-rss readers and flash all ok with ff and flash over here :-) Jul 17 18:02:41 and my domain matches this one, so on floss projects it makes it easier for people to correlate mail with irc Jul 17 18:02:54 the one single thing that flash has as a plus is it lets designers create interfaces without being programmers Jul 17 18:03:11 it would be neat to generalize that out to some toolkit like qt or whateve Jul 17 18:03:28 Aren't the tools closed and proprietary? Jul 17 18:03:37 yes Jul 17 18:03:38 cjb: clearly, the only way out is a fight to the death. Jul 17 18:03:44 yeah i'm just talking about useability Jul 17 18:07:24 ScaredyCat: have you tried ff nightly? 3.0 seems to be much better when it comes to RAM usage. And running JS Jul 17 18:07:41 browsing on informationfreeway.org makes ff 2.0 unusable in a very short time Jul 17 18:11:18 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Shipping update Jul 17 18:11:21 counter Jul 17 18:11:22 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 08:54:16 (0.371±0.4 days) (1754;248) Jul 17 18:14:36 sandos: no, might do that Jul 17 18:16:38 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Shipping update Jul 17 18:18:53 aloril, "0.371±0.4 days" %-) Jul 17 18:19:07 yay, we'll get tracking numbers! Jul 17 18:19:14 ups will have never seen such a flood as this Jul 17 18:19:55 BUT IT WAS IN INDIANAPOLIS 5 MINUTES AGO, WHY IS IT STILL THERE Jul 17 18:21:52 too bad the phones don't report their coords. you wouldn't need tracking via UPS, just watch the phone come to you :-) turn it on, box it up, send it Jul 17 18:22:10 heh Jul 17 18:22:16 what's the update? Jul 17 18:22:22 MacNorth: well, when power management works, sure. Jul 17 18:22:38 like i said, 'too bad...' Jul 17 18:22:54 we'd read about it on cnn, "shipping authorities detonated a box containing prototype cell phones destined for the US when all five hundred of them began to vibrate at the same time." Jul 17 18:23:06 ;) Jul 17 18:23:06 heh Jul 17 18:23:07 "at this time we do not believe there is a risk of a follow-up terrorist attack, but stay tuned!" Jul 17 18:23:07 l4rs: you the same l4rs as on openstreetmap? Jul 17 18:24:30 wtf Jul 17 18:25:51 cjb_ie: i'm in the #osm channel, if you mean that Jul 17 18:26:18 * ScaredyCat slaps galexande Jul 17 18:26:21 l4rs: that's the one. 'lo Jul 17 18:26:31 there's three of us in both now. Jul 17 18:26:38 dammit scaredy i slap enough cats already Jul 17 18:29:12 http://www.freeopenmoko.com/ ... FIC should work to shut down that site Jul 17 18:29:32 it is obviously a fraud... "testimony" that people have already gotten their neo Jul 17 18:29:44 haha Jul 17 18:29:50 nice one! Jul 17 18:30:17 galexande: that's called 'Spanking' and it's not a cat it's a 'monkey' Jul 17 18:30:21 Ah, stupid surveys. Bah. Jul 17 18:30:55 The domain was registered 5 days ago... Jul 17 18:31:02 hahahah is freeopenmoko a joke? Jul 17 18:31:16 And all the entries in the whois are fake. Of course. Jul 17 18:31:17 "contact the Elliot" ? is elliot a thing? Jul 17 18:31:30 we're really running into a whole cottage market of people who try to sell anything that gets slashdotted. Jul 17 18:31:33 or dugged Jul 17 18:32:14 Safe, Secure, Strong Jul 17 18:32:15 Registering a domain name is cheap, I'm sure if only 1-2 people get trapped, they already start winning money. Jul 17 18:32:26 earning* Jul 17 18:33:04 i have a suspicion that the fraud isn't even the main point, that the main point is search engine mining Jul 17 18:33:37 registrars are pieces of shit Jul 17 18:33:44 yeah, it's Apple Jul 17 18:34:31 gonna redirect to goats.ex Jul 17 18:36:52 anyone know the shipping from address.. or have an address int he same area(ish) Jul 17 18:37:14 ScaredyCat, goatse.cz, kthx :P Jul 17 18:37:18 read it Jul 17 18:37:27 argh, wrong chan again...this is getting ridiculous Jul 17 18:38:34 california Jul 17 18:38:39 Freemont, iirc Jul 17 18:39:22 hmm, i hope i'm in the first batch Jul 17 18:39:43 yay! goatse.cz!! Jul 17 18:40:16 for teh win Jul 17 18:40:16 :P Jul 17 18:40:50 that's not the kind of win I want Jul 17 18:41:44 UPS Worldwide Express Jul 17 18:41:45 Guaranteed by 12:00 P.M. Jul 17 18:41:45 Thursday 19 July 2007 Jul 17 18:41:56 please ship it today, PLEASE Jul 17 18:42:15 Latest Pickup Time: 3:30pm Jul 17 18:46:14 pitux: why do you need xulrunner on openmoko? Jul 17 18:47:02 pitux: FWIW, i'm going to try to port minimo to openmoko, but it doesn't have everything xulrunner has in it Jul 17 18:47:15 myk_ good! Jul 17 18:47:22 good luck :) Jul 17 18:48:18 minimo seems a good optin Jul 17 18:48:29 pitux: thanks; it shouldn't be an impossible task, given that minimo used to compile on Linux Jul 17 18:49:36 "Our target for Minimo is a Linux device with around 64 MB of physical memory. As we mentioned above, Minimo runs at around 25MB of RSS. Above this, you will need a Linux distribution, GTK, and X Windows. We have been using Familiar and GPE with much success in this configuration." - http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7396996719.html Jul 17 18:51:04 it's on the 770/800, no? Jul 17 18:52:39 yay Jul 17 18:52:46 n770 uses opera mostly? Jul 17 18:54:22 s/on/available/ Jul 17 18:54:41 i've got minimo on my 770. Jul 17 18:55:37 that's 2004, myk Jul 17 18:55:50 so, shipping to the US means no additional tax on the GTA01? Its included in the 300$ ? Jul 17 18:56:12 sandos, for us usians, sure Jul 17 18:56:20 grrrr Jul 17 18:56:32 USAwesome Jul 17 18:56:34 * ScaredyCat forces galexande to pay ScaredyCat's tax Jul 17 18:57:37 the only cat tax i'm willign to pay is wiping hairballs off the floor Jul 17 18:58:30 * ScaredyCat deposits some 'tax' in galexande's sock drawer Jul 17 19:00:31 sandos: sales tax - if in same state AIUI Jul 17 19:01:06 galexande: yeah, it's 2004, and things may have changed; just providing a reference Jul 17 19:01:14 pitux: what do you want to build on top of xulrunner? Jul 17 19:02:55 :o Jul 17 19:03:46 myk_ nothing at the moment Jul 17 19:10:50 galexande: yes, of course. But if I either travel there or know someone there.. I might be able to do something about customs.. =) Jul 17 19:14:16 As it turns out I'm flying from the UK to the US next week, so will probably be able to wave to my Neo as it goes past me mid-Atlantic Jul 17 19:14:51 hey, can you grab one while waving and drop it off in NY? :) Jul 17 19:15:15 I'll give it a damned good shot :) Jul 17 19:16:29 jgm: careful... that kind of language on a plane can get you arrested. Jul 17 19:16:56 Probably true Jul 17 19:17:07 Along with me taking too much toothpaste on the 'plane and other threats to national security Jul 17 19:17:08 just don't make a call on a sky phone and start the conversation with "hi, jack!" Jul 17 19:17:38 cjb_ie: another Bruce reader :) Jul 17 19:17:42 haha Jul 17 19:18:16 i checked in at manchester on sunday - was ridiculous. the checkin girl took my toothpaste, but told me it was okay to take two badges from the conference in my hand baggage, with great big sharp spiky needles in them... she said they'd get through security, and she was right. Jul 17 19:18:42 Stephmw: bruce? Jul 17 19:18:47 Did you see this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqoQOKeYM-g Jul 17 19:19:21 flash bork for me i'm afraid Jul 17 19:20:01 cjb_ie: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/07/canadians_are_a.html Jul 17 19:20:16 cjb_ie: his 'security blog' Jul 17 19:22:48 cjb_ie: and be careful if you plan on taking photos in the US.. http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2007/07/secret_buildings_you_may_not_p.html Jul 17 19:23:39 Cheer up, the world may be shit but at least we all plan to build a better 'phone :) Jul 17 19:24:12 give it another 10 years and such a phone might land you in jail... Jul 17 19:24:53 * don-o hands everyone an ice cream cone to relieve the pessimism Jul 17 19:25:20 * galexande holds up a cardboard sign: will go to jail for neo Jul 17 19:25:38 Stephmw: by that time the Neo will have camouflage to make it look like an iPhone so that won't be a problem Jul 17 19:26:10 we should be all about this...as nerds, we're presumably more aware that the planet is overpopulated than your average joe Jul 17 19:26:21 so we should be excited about draconian laws, because they might result in more people being executed Jul 17 19:26:41 galexande: except that they also increase the chance of us getting executed Jul 17 19:26:44 Stephmw: that's nothing new, feynman and a couple of his physicist friends got arrested for taking photos back in the 50s Jul 17 19:27:03 jgm, at times like these it is necessary to give up some personal freedoms for the Survival Of The Species!!! Jul 17 19:27:23 Like the freedom to breathe, that type of thing? Jul 17 19:27:30 you're catching on already! Jul 17 19:27:38 Sod The Species, more like Jul 17 19:28:17 galexande: "... for the survival of the One Race, the USian Race" Jul 17 19:28:54 So do you think in a week/month/whatever when we all have Neos we'll still be in here talking rubbish or will we be working away on our own projects to make it a wonderful 'phone? Jul 17 19:29:00 (And before you answer bear in mind that this is logged :)) Jul 17 19:30:28 steph, nah, i'm all about disproportionately killing off the rich white folk :) Jul 17 19:30:51 jgm, i'm going to be working away on my own project to make it a totally unusable phone :) Jul 17 19:31:12 http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/17/#20070717-sick-not-insane Jul 17 19:35:21 any cards been charged yet? Jul 17 19:36:41 not mine, as of an hour ago. Jul 17 19:36:50 cel: ouch. Jul 17 19:37:58 (script) planet: Harald "LaF0rge" Welte: Sick but not insane (yet) http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/17#20070717-sick-not-insane Jul 17 19:37:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[UI_Improvements/fr]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[Main_Page/fr]] Jul 17 19:38:11 Can one send SMS with the openmoko phone? Jul 17 19:38:23 wow, every time i make a joke about how bad things must be at openmoko.com, harald posts a blog entry describing the fact that i wasn't exaggerating :) Jul 17 19:38:48 did i not just say a couple hours ago that they have spent the last two weeks figuring out what a 'merchant bank' is? Jul 17 19:38:53 galexande: you must have inside info... give! :) Jul 17 19:39:25 so far i'm two for three... i'm only awaiting confirmation that they have kernel hackers packing boxes in california and printing shipping labels :) Jul 17 19:41:41 cool. Harold is dishing out the real scoop. Jul 17 19:42:37 is there any way for us to show our support to him? Jul 17 19:43:14 someone has to teach him how to delegate Jul 17 19:43:31 simple. deligate cashing the checks to me... ;) Jul 17 19:43:38 chinese-only CC. haha Jul 17 19:43:39 which unfortunately starts with finding staff you can work withh Jul 17 19:43:54 which, apparently, seems to be the problem Jul 17 19:44:23 we have basically the same probblem at my job, but we're all happy-go-lucky about it so it doesn't hurt Jul 17 19:44:50 my boss gave up on finding people he can work with so we're just two coders and a salesman, with like a dozen shipping products Jul 17 19:44:54 ok, ill try again, do Openmoko have SMS-applications at this point? Jul 17 19:45:21 marsan: there's not much beyond a dialer(maybe) at this point Jul 17 19:45:24 marsan: thats a big negatory Jul 17 19:45:28 marsan, software = no Jul 17 19:45:54 so at this point SMS isnt possible to send/recive with a openmoko phone? Jul 17 19:45:59 i dont get why he doesnt order gear from HK though Jul 17 19:46:25 buz, he's a kernel hacker, he knows two strategies: order online from german stores, or ask someone else to get it for him Jul 17 19:46:51 maybe we should get someone to order stuff for him then ;) Jul 17 19:47:08 there are probably a ton of people in taiwan who know how to get stuff from HK or whereever, but he doesn't care to know how to find them and learn to communicate with them Jul 17 19:47:26 well neither would i Jul 17 19:47:28 who is FAE? Jul 17 19:47:29 exactly :) Jul 17 19:47:33 but googling for stores is easy enough Jul 17 19:47:47 and getting german stores to ship abroad isnt always an easy exercise Jul 17 19:48:04 marsan, it's possible to do anythhing with an openmoko phone Jul 17 19:48:36 i've seen worse incompetence than the one described though Jul 17 19:48:51 galexande, hehe, i see your point. But me for a end user, that dosent know any programing languages at all, it could be kinda hard? Jul 17 19:48:51 and eventually, the company DID go bankrupt Jul 17 19:49:04 yeah i think we all have, i think he's only upset because he's accepted responsibility for all these tasks only to find that delegation has failed him Jul 17 19:49:19 probably Jul 17 19:49:23 marsan, if you don't program, don't get a neo for at least 3 months Jul 17 19:50:16 i know...i just fishing for how far the develop have come at this point..be sure, i wont order one before GTA02.. Jul 17 19:50:51 marsan: we're all waiting for the 'phones and the core developers are busy building a company that can buy/ship 'phones so at current not far Jul 17 19:50:57 marsan, kernel and drivers appear to be done, userland libraries and daemons to work with them appear to be started, and everything else is a big question mark, a couple flow charts and so on Jul 17 19:51:02 marsan: it boots Jul 17 19:51:17 and shows some very rudimentary gui Jul 17 19:51:41 (That said there are some patches for SMS in bugzilla that look interesting, I'll be trying them out pretty sharpish once I get one of those physical phone things that I'm hearing a lot about these days) Jul 17 19:52:08 hehe..i see. Jul 17 19:52:42 yeah i still have illusions about porting my phone number over to a gsm provider within a couple weeks and switching over Jul 17 19:53:37 galexande: around here that is a surprisingly straight forward process Jul 17 19:53:49 (given contract details allow cancelling of contract Jul 17 19:54:08 buz, sure but it means a lot of intense hacking to get the phone into a state i personally would consider usable :) Jul 17 19:54:22 galexande: no ETF? Jul 17 19:54:24 i think there are other people with this mindset so it may only take a monthh or so for dialer to stabilize Jul 17 19:54:29 summa, bwuh? Jul 17 19:54:31 oh so the issue is the phone, not the provider Jul 17 19:54:40 galexande: early termination fee Jul 17 19:54:43 buz, yeah i was just expressing my optimism :) Jul 17 19:54:54 summa, my contract is bogus, but more importantly, it expired already anyways. Jul 17 19:54:59 so what's the status of shipping? :) Jul 17 19:55:10 galexande: oh, nice Jul 17 19:55:15 * summatusmentis has 1.5 years left :-/ Jul 17 19:55:16 ynezz, by the end of the week we'll have credit card bills and tracking digits if we're among the first 500 Jul 17 19:55:24 wow! Jul 17 19:55:41 ynezz, 500 of the fist 1000 phones are in the us Jul 17 19:55:49 something tells me i didn't make it to within the first 500. Jul 17 19:56:09 i'm just not that lucky. ;) Jul 17 19:56:21 hm i think we've placed order as number around 300 Jul 17 19:56:53 summa, sprint/verizon? Jul 17 19:57:05 BTW what's latest know ticket number? Jul 17 19:57:10 s/know/known/ Jul 17 19:57:11 ynezz meant: BTW what's latest known ticket number? Jul 17 19:57:17 where does Harold normally live? Jul 17 19:57:32 ynezz, at least 3395 Jul 17 19:57:34 Think they're going to process them based on order #? Jul 17 19:57:36 galexande: US Cellular, smallish carrier Jul 17 19:57:38 nice Jul 17 19:57:42 galexande: but yeah, CDMA Jul 17 19:57:48 summa, sowwy Jul 17 19:58:28 so I'm waiting for a while, seeing GTA02 be released, and then maybe waiting a while for the software to get where I want it Jul 17 19:58:43 otherwise, I might just wait till GTA0{<2} Jul 17 19:58:57 huh looks like greenphone is gsm too Jul 17 19:59:04 galexande: it is Jul 17 19:59:23 no small players want to do CDMA, it's too expensive Jul 17 19:59:48 man, for years i have been trying to understand cdma/tdma/gsm/amps/pcs/... Jul 17 19:59:58 it turns out wikipedia has great entries on all of these things Jul 17 20:00:02 hehe Jul 17 20:00:05 to undo decades of telco fud Jul 17 20:00:16 * Stephmw nods Jul 17 20:18:53 what things? Jul 17 20:19:00 oh Jul 17 20:19:04 oops, was scrolled Jul 17 20:19:33 galexande, what things does wikipedia have great entries on to undo telco fud? CDMA and GSM ? Jul 17 20:19:46 cheese Jul 17 20:24:37 how do i get the number of items on the current page from the result of a pagingating_find Jul 17 20:24:41 sorry wrong channel. Jul 17 20:24:57 good job Jul 17 20:24:57 ;) Jul 17 20:26:09 orzo, yeah, specifically the articles on TDMA and CDMA are great Jul 17 20:26:49 er Jul 17 20:26:56 if I didn't get a mail confirmation Jul 17 20:27:00 should I be concerned? Jul 17 20:27:14 paron, if you haven't seen a YES_I_DO mail then you're probably fucked Jul 17 20:27:29 but if you've sent a YES_I_DO, then there is no expected response to that one. Jul 17 20:28:27 :( Jul 17 20:28:31 hell, we've seen the YES_I_DO emails and we're still fucked ;) Jul 17 20:28:58 but I gave my credit card infos last tuesday and everything Jul 17 20:29:09 define fucked? Jul 17 20:29:20 galexande Jul 17 20:29:24 mintee, beats me Jul 17 20:29:28 heh Jul 17 20:29:41 but my suspicion is that they're overloaded enough that at the moment any order that didn't go thorugh no-problems is getting punted Jul 17 20:29:42 just a guess Jul 17 20:29:51 paron_work: lost of us gave cc details over a week ago Jul 17 20:29:54 anyways, probably less than a 2 month lead time on the next batch of devices... Jul 17 20:30:03 that's very professional of them :P Jul 17 20:30:21 they're learning a lot about how to do this sort of thing Jul 17 20:30:25 well, i'm excited that they're failures at distribution, it makes it plausible that they're good engineers :) Jul 17 20:30:35 ScaredyCat: "cc details"? Jul 17 20:30:39 galexande: no... Jul 17 20:30:42 cc being? Jul 17 20:30:46 cc = credit card Jul 17 20:30:48 i'd rather have no communication and have a working product suddenly show up than lots of fluffy communication and no product Jul 17 20:30:50 ah Jul 17 20:31:06 ckuethe: but we know that wont happen Jul 17 20:31:32 it's a good thing when your credit card companys website for the past 24 hours gives you an Error 500 with trying to log in, right? Jul 17 20:31:47 nice Jul 17 20:32:21 ckuethe, s/working// and we're in business :) Jul 17 20:32:21 basically the guys doing the work are programmers who appear to have no organisational skills and/or are being overworked with little support. Jul 17 20:32:41 when is early order for v2 open? Jul 17 20:32:56 early order? Jul 17 20:33:10 yeah, I would like to place an order early, lol Jul 17 20:33:12 p1 isn;t shipping, give them a chance. Jul 17 20:33:21 hehe Jul 17 20:47:56 ahoi Jul 17 20:54:35 so I'm trying to port my app which depends on gtkmm over to openmoko. a question: Jul 17 20:56:02 The OE package that came down for gtkmm is gtkmm-2.8.3. No prob there. But that package depends on gtk+ being at least 2.8. Is there a reason the OpenMoko folks specifically pull an old version (2.6.10) of gtk+ down from OE? Jul 17 20:57:52 khester: google why gtk+ 2.6.x gets used on embedded devices (like the nokia). Jul 17 20:58:35 yeah - If heard some of those things, but I've also read that 2.10 fixed all that. true? Jul 17 20:58:55 khester: 2.6 was the last version not using cairo Jul 17 20:59:13 It seems strange for the OE folks to include a gtkmm which requires a version of gtk+ not in their repository Jul 17 20:59:36 khester: latest (unstable?) cairo releases have this famous surface cache which brings great performance improvements Jul 17 20:59:54 that would be good Jul 17 21:02:19 khester: I don't have an OE checkout in front of me. But do you say we don't have a gtk+-2.8 bb file? Jul 17 21:02:48 and in org.oe.dev we only have gtkmm-2.10 anyway Jul 17 21:04:15 zecke: i'm just starting to look at the dependancies. but when i pulled in my custom bb file that said DEPENDS = "libglademm gtkmm" the build failed while trying to make gtkmm Jul 17 21:04:24 zecke: the cause was: Jul 17 21:06:31 the do_configure step of gtkmm in bitbake. Apparently the .ac file in gtkmm is saying it requires gtk+ being at least 2.8.0. Both the gtkmm and the gtk+-2.0 got pulled down 'automagically' from OE due to bitbake dependancies. It seems strange that the gtkmm that came down wants a gtk+ that ain't there Jul 17 21:07:05 any advice? i'm happy to poke at this but i'm generally a bit more of a kernelish dude. learning these fancy bitbake tools is tricky ;-) Jul 17 21:07:45 just doing "bitbake gtkmm" shows the problem as an easy test case Jul 17 21:08:33 i have no great desire for the latest and greatest gtkmm, so if there is a way to pull down an older version that _can_ meet it's dependancies that would be fine with me too Jul 17 21:09:30 score Jul 17 21:09:32 oops Jul 17 21:11:00 khester: we don't have gtkmm 2.8 in org.oe.dev, the only version is 2.10. You might be able to find a bb file for gtkmm-2.6(?) and then you can set PREFERRED_VERSION to 2.6 for gtkmm Jul 17 21:12:19 zecke: thx - i'll poke a bit - on phone now :-) Jul 17 21:18:28 zecke: i guess i'm going to look at where/how bitbake magically finds things. I used MokoMakefile to setup my environment originally and never specifically set where it should look for OE files. It sounds like the org.oe.dev site has 2.10 for gtkmm, but somehow when I specified "gtkmm" I got 2.8 via bitbake. Does it sound plausible to you that the source repository (wherever that gets set) ain't set to org.oe.dev? thanks for the a Jul 17 21:19:34 khester: OpenMoko is using an older snapshot/revision of OE Jul 17 21:20:19 zecke: any guesses on how painful it would be if i pointed my environment at top-of-tree OE? i'm guessing that would hurt if i want to mix and match with moko Jul 17 21:21:10 khester: I don't know the current status but the plan was to merge after Guadec. Most of it is in sync anyway Jul 17 21:21:56 zecke: oh - interesting, okay, i'll play around a bit then. at the very least i'll learn a bit about these wheels within wheels within autoconf within bitbake ;-) Jul 17 21:23:23 :) Jul 17 21:26:59 * ScaredyCat wondered how long it'd take. Jul 17 21:27:39 anti terror police get access to london congestion charge cameras Jul 17 21:29:30 wtf ... "documents that could be used in acts of terrorism" - that's a new crime on me :/ Jul 17 21:29:51 Thinking the wrong way is a crime in our modern world. Jul 17 21:30:40 seen Johnny English? Jul 17 21:30:55 Johnny English? Jul 17 21:31:00 with the French bloke wanting to turn the UK into a prison Jul 17 21:31:09 ScaredyCat: it could be argued that underground timetables "could be used in acts of terrorism" Jul 17 21:31:11 film, Rowan Atkinson Jul 17 21:31:20 and john malkovich as the french guy Jul 17 21:31:27 bondesque spoof Jul 17 21:31:39 cjb_ie: exactly.. Jul 17 21:31:53 yup, and my gf at the time didn't believe that it was a bond spoof Jul 17 21:31:54 although he did ave 'plans for a rocket' Jul 17 21:32:36 any rocket hobbyists should be shitting themselves right about now Jul 17 21:32:57 ah yes, the 'french guy' ;) Jul 17 21:34:20 From the brief glance I saw, the nozzle looked way off. Jul 17 21:34:34 _way_ too divergant on the output side. Jul 17 21:35:01 plans for a rocket? who's this now? Jul 17 21:35:52 Someone arrested going out of the UK. Jul 17 21:36:05 * daMaestro chants "i want my neo, i want my neo [...]" and then trails off into the unknown... Jul 17 21:37:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[S3C2410_Steppingstone]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] [[PCF50606]] [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[S3C2410]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware_Debugging]] [[Category:Neo1973_Phase_2_related]] and other changes Jul 17 21:38:53 Huh, lots of hw updates? Jul 17 21:39:05 Naah Jul 17 21:39:08 catspam Jul 17 21:40:24 Ahh. Jul 17 22:16:38 (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger Re: Again: Advertising thoughts Jul 17 22:17:54 how does aloril decide who is notable enough to notify us of Jul 17 22:18:11 galexande: AI Jul 17 22:18:28 i suppose that's the Werner mentioned in Harald's blog Jul 17 22:18:48 galexande: Yes, he is one of the core devs. Jul 17 22:19:03 i wonder if it would be excessive for aloril to provide a url for the archive :) Jul 17 22:20:20 galexande: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/007235.html Jul 17 22:21:20 Look up Core TEam on the wiki Jul 17 22:24:08 what? Jul 17 22:24:15 moko has a higher resolution screen? Jul 17 22:24:20 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone Jul 17 22:24:29 higher resolution than an iphone? Jul 17 22:24:57 sure Jul 17 22:25:20 all things considered, moko is the better phone Jul 17 22:25:29 moko? Jul 17 22:25:40 i would of thought for the apple premium you pay you would get a better lcd than what moko has Jul 17 22:25:49 you mean neo1973 Jul 17 22:26:02 I wonder why anyone would buy an iPhone. Jul 17 22:26:04 openmoko can have whatever resolution you want :) Jul 17 22:26:15 the one listed in the wiki, yes sorry i'm calling a particular model a generic name Jul 17 22:26:15 (in theory) Jul 17 22:26:16 :) Jul 17 22:26:42 although i relaly like the word moko Jul 17 22:26:54 It is expensive and locked to AT&T, it completely prevents tinkering and it lacks too many important features. Jul 17 22:26:57 Is there a FAQ on where the name came from? Jul 17 22:26:57 holycow, i really feel that way too, but it all comes down to the software :) Jul 17 22:27:04 right right Jul 17 22:27:16 Tronic, well even just reading the wiki comparison Jul 17 22:27:22 i think 'openmoko' is a dumb name :) Jul 17 22:27:22 i mean iphone edges out in a few areas Jul 17 22:27:25 but not very many Jul 17 22:27:46 i really was surprised to read about the screen resolution considering thats really what they are selling ... the lcd Jul 17 22:27:54 it seems like the camera stands out as a sore spot in the iphone, because it's not of any exceptional quality whatsoever Jul 17 22:28:21 i don't know anyone that actually uses their camera phone for anything resembling a quality photo tho Jul 17 22:28:30 i used mine for a while then just forgot about it Jul 17 22:28:57 The Maddox rant/comparison to E70 is quite informative as well. Jul 17 22:29:09 oh that was funny Jul 17 22:29:14 mostly a joke but partially true Jul 17 22:29:22 partially? Jul 17 22:29:31 A friend of mine uses N95 as a "real" camera. Jul 17 22:29:45 Qwell, well mostly it was just trash talk for comedys sake Jul 17 22:30:01 sure, but that doesn't make it any less true - which just adds to the comedic value :) Jul 17 22:30:02 The videos aren't very useful, but the photos are acceptable. The colors are off and the "flash" is a joke, but it works in good lighting conditions. Jul 17 22:30:38 I prefer phones without cameras in them. Jul 17 22:30:38 i think cel phone cameras are great i jus think people expect too much of them Jul 17 22:30:54 Tronic, of couse you can't do high quality pictures. but the n95's camera is nearby as good as a $100 digital camera Jul 17 22:30:54 they are roughly the high tech equivalent of kodak disposeable cameras Jul 17 22:31:12 A small (non-zoom, etc) camera may have some uses such as barcode reading etc, but it's still not something that I'd like to have. Jul 17 22:32:23 hi Jul 17 22:33:04 can a camera be used as a barcode reader? Jul 17 22:33:10 yes Jul 17 22:33:13 really? Jul 17 22:33:15 shazam! Jul 17 22:33:17 sure Jul 17 22:33:17 OCR Jul 17 22:33:23 oh that just solved another problem for us Jul 17 22:33:23 see the mac app, delicious library Jul 17 22:33:24 OBR Jul 17 22:33:31 i'm writing an simple asset management utility Jul 17 22:33:32 more or less :p Jul 17 22:33:36 but you can do better than barcodes Jul 17 22:33:42 you can use rotation-invariant symbols Jul 17 22:33:45 we could have a moko device sent around to all offices to do inventory Jul 17 22:33:50 *hmmmmmmm* Jul 17 22:34:13 Anyone happen to have a moko, that they could do a very quick test. Jul 17 22:34:46 Time bzip2 -d -c out.bz >/dev/zero Jul 17 22:34:52 from http://www.mauve.plus.com/out.bz2 Jul 17 22:34:55 from http://www.mauve.plus.com/out1.bz2 Jul 17 22:35:17 120K and 1.2M bzip2'd articles from wikipedia. Jul 17 22:35:29 cjb: Semacode - http://semacode.org/ Jul 17 22:35:36 (about 10 and 100 respectively) Jul 17 22:35:51 Kensan: yup, like that Jul 17 22:36:30 cjb: something like this would be fun: http://homepages.nyu.edu/~dc788/conqwest/ Jul 17 22:36:51 I just read harald's blog... wow. Worth of thedailywtf.com Jul 17 22:38:19 cedric, url? Jul 17 22:38:38 http://planet.openmoko.org/ Jul 17 22:38:54 semacode is interesting btw Jul 17 22:38:55 neato Jul 17 22:40:02 holycow: It is used in "print-your-ticket-at-home" kind of things (e.g. Tickets for Openair festivals etc) Jul 17 22:40:04 barcode via camera isn't that easy Jul 17 22:40:43 ynezz, it doesn't sound like it, i'm still surprised by the idea Jul 17 22:41:00 Given adequate resolution, it's just a software problem. Jul 17 22:41:14 The trivial solution is to basically implement a virtual barcode scanner. Jul 17 22:41:41 You scan 20-30 times across the input image, and see if any hits result in a valid barcode. Jul 17 22:41:52 no problem if you can scan one barcode for one minute :) Jul 17 22:41:54 (in different directions) Jul 17 22:42:08 You take a frame, then do it. Jul 17 22:42:17 but we have barcodes to speed-up the proccess Jul 17 22:42:27 _virtual_ Jul 17 22:42:29 not all barcodes are always in good condition... Jul 17 22:43:03 You take an image of the barcode, then have the software do the virtual-barcode-wand waving to get a good read Jul 17 22:43:24 and what if the image is unusable? Jul 17 22:43:33 It doesn't go beep. Jul 17 22:43:34 user is going back to stock to take a new one? Jul 17 22:43:41 ah Jul 17 22:43:42 This is in real time. Jul 17 22:44:11 this is a dumb conversation Jul 17 22:44:16 :) Jul 17 22:44:32 I'm in auto-id industry for 4+ years :) Jul 17 22:44:41 SpeedEvil's description pretty much completely describes a fast working algorithm for it :) Jul 17 22:44:45 we're done Jul 17 22:44:57 The _right_ thing to do is to attempt to recognise an area of the image as a barcode - say an area with stripes in one direction - and then auto-rectify it to a nice square, and then squash the barcode vertically to gain signal. Jul 17 22:44:57 miip, thats a funny link Jul 17 22:45:02 meh, I've worked with barcodes and RFID, no semacodes yet Jul 17 22:45:06 but thats par for the course in most organizations Jul 17 22:45:10 holycow: small correction: data matrices are used for the "print-your..." stuff not semacodes. Jul 17 22:45:11 i've never seen a well run business Jul 17 22:45:14 This can pick out _really_ dirty codes. Jul 17 22:45:22 Kensan, *nod* Jul 17 22:45:46 * SpeedEvil wishes RFID would start working magically at the same price as barcodes, and they could just go away :) Jul 17 22:46:00 they would never go away Jul 17 22:46:03 Not that RFID doesn't have its own issues. Jul 17 22:46:19 SpeedEvil: if my work ever slows down we're pitching some RFID products to a few local companies that could scale nationally easy, but meh Jul 17 22:46:32 RFID's got issues, but it's got tons of domains that it works flawlessly in :) Jul 17 22:46:35 they're gaining more attention now, with so called "direct part marking" Jul 17 22:46:45 There are interesting potential products 2-3 generations out. Jul 17 22:46:53 That could _really_ revolutionise things. Jul 17 22:46:57 there are a few interesting products this generation :) Jul 17 22:47:02 but you're right Jul 17 22:47:03 Indeed. Jul 17 22:47:13 But $1 vs $.01 is a _big_ difference. Jul 17 22:47:20 drop the price < USD$0.08 per part and it gets crazy cool Jul 17 22:47:23 yeah Jul 17 22:47:29 it will Jul 17 22:47:33 I know Jul 17 22:47:45 Stuff like auto-ordering as you throw stuff in the bin. Jul 17 22:48:52 Has anyone heard news about the phones shipping? Jul 17 22:48:54 Interesting RFID-stuff that LaF0rge has worked on: http://www.openbeacon.org/ Jul 17 22:49:45 calamous: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/007210.html Jul 17 22:50:11 Kensan: do you happen to know _where_ those nordic chips are avialable - I haven't found any disties. Jul 17 22:50:40 yay!!! Jul 17 22:51:06 Kensan: ty Jul 17 22:52:20 SpeedEvil: sorry, I don't. Jul 17 22:52:34 Annoying - they look like fun. Jul 17 22:54:30 someone set the topic to say the phones have cleared customs Jul 17 22:54:40 #openmoko is -t Jul 17 22:54:52 ie; you can do it Jul 17 22:55:28 SpeedEvil: google got me this http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=705 Jul 17 22:56:05 cool Jul 17 22:56:15 where'd the 7/24 bit come from? Jul 17 22:56:25 SpeedEvil: searching for "NRF24L01" may yield some results to your liking... Jul 17 22:57:24 Kensan: yeah - I was looking more for bare chips. Jul 17 22:59:02 24.7. ? Jul 17 22:59:30 Oh - I meant to trim that Jul 17 23:01:22 by 'first batch' do we mean the first 1000? Jul 17 23:01:35 500 Jul 17 23:01:47 that should be mine then :) Jul 17 23:01:57 * Qwell[] ponders how long it would take to get one if he ordered today Jul 17 23:02:11 I do wish they'd provide more news. Jul 17 23:02:21 Have they or have they not kicked off production of a new batch. Jul 17 23:02:49 If they did as they saw the rush of incoming tickets, it could be a week into that production process. Jul 17 23:02:51 yeah, it would be good to get more news, but i bet they are just insanely busy Jul 17 23:03:36 Does anyone know if openmoko supports other keyboards (such as dvorak)? Jul 17 23:04:02 calamous: it's got like xmodmap on it, I assume Jul 17 23:04:15 Alright Jul 17 23:05:45 it should support it, but whether or not someone has tried it yet, dunno Jul 17 23:15:55 23!! Jul 17 23:15:57 blah Jul 17 23:16:03 someone fsked up Jul 17 23:16:12 laaammmmeeeee Jul 17 23:16:16 logistics-- Jul 17 23:24:29 23? Jul 17 23:25:21 Monday - next. Jul 17 23:25:37 I put it then as they said CC charging should happen before the end of the week. Jul 17 23:26:03 And I think if they'd have meant 'shipping before the end of the week' they may have said something. Jul 17 23:26:12 s/they/Sean/ Jul 17 23:26:13 SpeedEvil meant: And I think if Sean'd have meant 'shipping before the end of the week' they may have said something. Jul 17 23:37:12 *happy* Jul 17 23:37:21 advanced kit ordered Jul 17 23:37:36 nearly #3900 Jul 17 23:38:06 i´ve orderd worldwide Express Plus and if they deliver this week i should get it on monday (austria,europa) Jul 17 23:38:14 i hope so Jul 17 23:38:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Mokopedia]] [[Stylus_mount]] [[Steampunk]] [[Modular_phone]] [[Mokopedia]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Category:Neo1973_Phase_2_related]] [[Category:Neo1973_Phase_0_related]] [[Category:Neo1973_before_Phase_0_related]] and other changes Jul 17 23:39:05 eh. mine gets here when it gets here, and not before then Jul 17 23:39:57 with #3900 it take a while i think Jul 17 23:41:11 yep Jul 17 23:41:18 so i picked the cheap shipping too Jul 17 23:41:29 not really in a hurry Jul 17 23:41:35 i have tons of other junk to do Jul 17 23:41:51 migrating my old bugzilla installation to rt Jul 17 23:42:16 writing a monitor system to produce graphs of just about every conceivable metric in my datacenter Jul 17 23:42:44 whats rt? Jul 17 23:42:46 difference in shippig was just 50$ and i did not know how long the cheapest way takes to austria ;) Jul 17 23:43:02 maybe i should produce graphs of number of graphs per second produced, and pie charts of most popular charts Jul 17 23:43:08 rt = request tracker Jul 17 23:43:30 http://bestpractical.com/rt Jul 17 23:46:32 So, where would be a good place to start for developing an openmoko application (maybe an example application)? Jul 17 23:46:54 ckuethe: Strain guages on the chair, and "average staff weight". Jul 17 23:47:11 peak effluent output by manager orifice Jul 17 23:47:49 counter? Jul 17 23:47:49 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 06:06:03 (0.254±0.3 days) (1755;248) Jul 17 23:47:53 lol Jul 17 23:48:15 wont ship till monday of next week.... booooooooooo Jul 17 23:48:32 lucky me knows perl, gd, gnuplot, and has root passwords... guess who gets tagged to write the graphing tool Jul 17 23:49:51 You've got a recent gnuplot? Jul 17 23:50:05 that supports coloured points? Jul 17 23:50:34 spinning 6D graphs can be fun. Jul 17 23:52:11 gnuplot 4.2.0 Jul 17 23:54:14 Urgh, another airplane accident here in Brazil Jul 17 23:54:22 :/ Jul 17 23:54:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_Linhas_A3%A9reas_Flight_3054 Jul 18 00:16:35 SpeedEvil, why was the shipment delayed a week? Jul 18 00:17:53 codyl: dunno Jul 18 00:18:11 it was stated in Seans mail that they won't even be charging CCs till later in the week. Jul 18 00:18:29 If htye'd have been likely to ship within the week, they'd have mentioned. Jul 18 00:19:24 SpeedEvil, okay thanks Jul 18 00:21:20 ckuethe: you've seen monin? Jul 18 00:43:03 I have a Neo1973 with an old software set on it. I don't really want to use serial, and I have a MicroSD card. Is there a MicroSD-only way to upgrade it to the latest snapshot from buildhost? Jul 18 00:43:33 Hmm, OTOH the snapshots are sort of old. Jul 18 00:46:24 reading the manual on the wiki helps.... Jul 18 00:48:06 CoreDump|afk, You mean http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader ? Jul 18 00:50:25 Er, wow, my USB bus has gone berserk. Jul 18 00:50:34 lsusb's not really supposed to hang, eh? (-: Jul 18 00:50:39 no, you don't want to touch the B/L until you really have to (except when you also own the debug board) Jul 18 00:51:31 neos 0,5A charging mode may crash crappy USB controllers. Avoid cheap USB hubs Jul 18 00:51:37 CoreDump|afk, I do have the debug board, but I'm willing not to use it. Jul 18 00:51:53 It's connected directly to a motherboard USB port. Jul 18 00:52:01 hello folks Jul 18 00:52:08 paulproteus: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dfu-util#Flashing_the_kernel Jul 18 00:52:15 NeoStrider: hi Jul 18 00:52:39 coredump...your presence is not very welcome =-P Jul 18 00:53:01 ;) Jul 18 00:53:25 paulproteus: it boils down to these commands: http://rafb.net/p/xY02JL65.html Jul 18 00:57:59 CoreDump|afk, I think my USB is totally confused, and I'll reboot soon; tty in a bit. (-: Jul 18 01:02:26 hi there everybody. the last few days i'm turning into an openmoko big fan, i've read all the details i could find about it, but i'm not much of a hardcore developer so i'll be waiting for the october release. can somebody please let me know if there are any news regarding the built-in scripting languages that you're planning to support? Jul 18 01:02:27 inspecter: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 18 01:06:39 inspecter: basically, if there is a scripting language that works on Linux, it will work on the Neo. Jul 18 01:07:28 inspecter: You may have to install the interpreter yourself, though. Jul 18 01:09:12 inspecter: i don't think such things have been decided yet (i know there's a python project + python bindings on projects.openmoko.org). but as you know, people will be able to add/remove whatever software they like, so you could indirectly assume "your" language will be supported somehow. Jul 18 01:10:36 inspecter: Much of the OpenMoko development is related to building phone-ish *applications*, but the operating system itself is essentially ordinary Linux. Jul 18 01:11:18 So, if you want to write bash scripts, you're all set! Jul 18 01:13:42 ok i get it. thanks for the replies. cause i was reading about bash using gtk via gtk-server on the wiki and I thought that this would be the main choice. Jul 18 01:14:45 inspecter: Nope. That's the whole point of having an open source phone -- you can do pretty much whatever you want. Jul 18 01:16:27 maybe the idea is a bit stupid but for me, working on web development mostly, it would be nice to find a mini size httpd server, sqllite etc. and work with php or mono... Jul 18 01:16:54 inspecter: Sure, you could do that. Have you looked at lighttpd? Jul 18 01:17:08 only heard of it Jul 18 01:17:36 In practice - with a 2G MicroSD, you can install pretty much everything Jul 18 01:17:39 It's pretty nice. I use it for my personal website, which gets a fair bit of traffic. Jul 18 01:19:31 inspecter: It's a CPU with a few hundred MHz and a few GB of storage. Think of the laptop you owned (or might have owned) five or six years ago, and that should approximate its capabilities. Jul 18 01:20:12 maybe even a little better, since it doesn't have a hard drive to go bad on you ^_^ Jul 18 01:20:26 hehe Jul 18 01:21:49 in that case, count me in! :) i'll go for the october model though cause i need the wifi. Jul 18 01:25:01 Acually, local web applications on the Neo would be a pretty good choise for new developers, since that way they could avoid having to learn how to make their application get along with the OpenEmbedded mini-desktop environment. Jul 18 01:26:20 um Jul 18 01:26:29 have you actually writen local web apps? Jul 18 01:27:08 i have, and i must have been doing it wrong, cause my experience can be summarized: not worth the hassle Jul 18 01:27:26 ajax and all Jul 18 01:27:39 it was fairly absurd Jul 18 01:27:49 orzo: Heh. Jul 18 01:28:02 Yes, if you want to do something complicated. Jul 18 01:28:42 But if you want something that could be a simple CGI script, it would be fairly easy. Jul 18 01:29:42 well I've yet to write software for OpenEmbedded, but I bet a novice would have an easier time than if they opted to write local web aps (also as a novice in that) Jul 18 01:29:44 It wouldn't be ideal from a usability point of view, but for people who just want to develop simple GUIs for their own scripts, a simple local web app isn't a bad choice. Jul 18 01:30:43 orzo: A lot more people can write CGI than can write GTK applications. Jul 18 01:31:04 well, maybe i did things the hard way, but I needed, on double click of my app, to start a listening socket and fire up the web browser Jul 18 01:31:51 working on multiple platforms, it got a hairy Jul 18 01:32:52 i was using perl also, maybe that was a poor choice Jul 18 01:33:15 but, as somebody who doesnt do that sort of thing often, i was under the impression perl would be good for it Jul 18 01:33:41 Oh, it is. It's just not a good idea to learn perl while also trying to get a product out the door. Jul 18 01:34:33 Same is true for most languages. Jul 18 01:35:34 well, I feel that i did a lot of stuff that should have already been done considering how people talk about ajax and local web aps all teh time Jul 18 01:36:35 ok guys thanks for the feedback. I have to go it's 4:30 am here. Jul 18 01:36:43 bye Jul 18 01:36:48 without knowing much, you might think it's worked out so much that its basically visual basic and the web service is invisible Jul 18 01:37:03 which can be done imo Jul 18 01:37:56 orzo: I'm afraid not. Jul 18 01:38:15 orzo: It's not that it can't be done, but that it hasn't been. Jul 18 01:38:21 right Jul 18 01:38:30 but with the hype out there, i thought it probably was done Jul 18 01:38:38 before i found out for myself heh Jul 18 01:38:53 It is, if you have lots of money to spend on it. ^_^ Jul 18 01:38:57 heh Jul 18 01:38:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Auckland]] [[P1_Owners]] Jul 18 01:39:48 orzo: Web technologies are often like that. No one bothers to polish them. Jul 18 01:39:57 what did you have in mind for the newbie web coders? php? Jul 18 01:40:13 for writing local web aps i mean Jul 18 01:41:14 I would give them some example scripts in various languages. The script would set up the socket connection and launch a browser window directed to the right URL. Jul 18 01:41:24 hm Jul 18 01:42:03 It would at least let people write programs that display text and pictures and have buttons and text entry boxes. Jul 18 01:43:30 well, for a complete newbie, i think gtk might be more straight forward Jul 18 01:43:38 * sparq shrugs Jul 18 01:44:14 and launching the browser window on teh right URL has various gotchas Jul 18 01:44:30 thats one thing you'd think would be already written for us Jul 18 01:44:47 gochas? Jul 18 01:45:31 gotchas. Meaning it's not as simple as you'd think. It's brittle and requires some platform detection and such in perl and probably other languages too Jul 18 01:46:17 it will work on your devel box, but maybe not on production... Jul 18 01:46:20 platform detection? if it's an application for the Neo1973, then I'm pretty sure it's safe to make assumptions Jul 18 01:46:26 ya Jul 18 01:46:49 epiphany http://foo.bar & Jul 18 01:47:10 but a principle advantage of local web apps is supposed to be that its just web stuff and you have platform independence for your gui for free more or less Jul 18 01:47:41 Heh. I think we are imagining applications of very different scales. Jul 18 01:47:52 I'm imagining something more like a 50 line bash script. Jul 18 01:48:04 That displays a button that you may click. Jul 18 01:48:25 sparq: I'm going to be writing either rails or camping apps for the phone in ruby Jul 18 01:48:35 but if that's what you're after Jul 18 01:48:36 zenity Jul 18 01:48:43 sparq, well, still in that case, launching the browser seems overkill Jul 18 01:49:18 there are lighter ways to add gui code to bash scripts Jul 18 01:49:25 jadams: Neat! Rails is fun. I use rails+lighttpd for my website Jul 18 01:49:35 any news on shipping? Jul 18 01:49:36 sparq: I write rails apps for a living :) Jul 18 01:49:38 been out all day? Jul 18 01:49:53 jadams: Spiffy. Jul 18 01:50:09 i think my order is past 800th so those are probably not even in the states yet Jul 18 01:50:10 jadams: I write python apps for supercomputers. Jul 18 01:51:07 sparq: spiffier :) Jul 18 01:51:38 mine is 1843 which makes it hte 23rd order (im special, i know) and i have not recieved any kindof confirmation nor have they billed my card Jul 18 01:51:41 how long does it take for the browser to come up on teh neo? Jul 18 01:51:45 jadams: Heh. Well, it *sounds* cool. I only do it becaues otherwise I'd have to use Fortran. Jul 18 01:52:35 orzo: On my (very slow) QEMU instance, it takes about a second or two. On the real device, it should be better. Jul 18 01:53:18 I'm 1873... wish I was 100 later :) Jul 18 01:53:23 anyways - off to bed - night! Jul 18 01:53:36 shouldnt qemu on a fast computer do better than a real device for most things? Jul 18 01:53:53 orzo: God, I hope not, or the Neo is going to suuuuuuck! Jul 18 01:53:57 ^_^ Jul 18 01:53:57 qemu is really quite slow. Jul 18 01:54:20 I really hope it's qemu thats slow :) Jul 18 01:54:28 s/thats/that's Jul 18 01:55:03 i think the wiki or something indicated qemu ought to be faster except for audio Jul 18 01:55:28 I think it's reasonable if you are emulating X86 on X86, and you have the virtualization patches. Jul 18 01:55:50 orzo: faster than other emulaters, I'd believe ^_^ Jul 18 01:56:14 QEMU is a great emulator Jul 18 01:57:06 well, compiled native for a 2ghz x86 desktop compared to running native on a 266mhz neo, the desktop would win by a very large ratio i'd expect Jul 18 01:58:12 and if thats right, depending on just how big that ratio is, emulation might be faster too Jul 18 01:58:19 Does qemu take advantage of extra cores or cpus? Jul 18 02:00:38 i dont realy know how to compare cpus anymore Jul 18 02:00:57 Neither do I Jul 18 02:01:04 i just look at the frequency Jul 18 02:01:16 and hope thats a good enough indicator Jul 18 02:02:00 Our 2.2GHz machines at work outruns this 3.06GHz :\ Jul 18 02:02:13 heh Jul 18 02:02:41 are those duals at work compared to a single processor? Jul 18 02:02:50 dual core, yes Jul 18 02:02:54 the 2.2 sound like dual cores Jul 18 02:02:57 yeah Jul 18 02:03:02 so multiply by cpus Jul 18 02:03:05 AMD X2 Jul 18 02:03:07 4.4 > 3.06 Jul 18 02:03:08 one cpu Jul 18 02:03:08 heh Jul 18 02:03:09 that means 4.4ghz Jul 18 02:03:11 :) Jul 18 02:03:33 my laptop cpu blows my desktops P4 out of the water Jul 18 02:03:38 sad but true Jul 18 02:04:02 my laptop is a p2 heh Jul 18 02:04:04 actually i love it Jul 18 02:04:18 dude time for a new laptop Jul 18 02:04:23 well, multiplying the frequence by the number of cores is nonsence :) Jul 18 02:04:28 heh Jul 18 02:04:40 you got a better simple formula? Jul 18 02:05:15 well, the frequence doesnt tell anything between different models Jul 18 02:05:19 well, technically, i think, only one processor can run one app at a time Jul 18 02:05:50 unless it's multithreaded Jul 18 02:05:51 running 2 apps at the sametime doesnt speed up one app to the double speed :) Jul 18 02:05:58 even if it's multithreaded Jul 18 02:06:19 what im saying is that both cores cant run the same process Jul 18 02:06:27 i think, dont quote me on this Jul 18 02:06:31 well, it will speed up make -j2 Jul 18 02:06:34 i could be incredibly wrong Jul 18 02:06:34 btw: Sun's niagara runs at 10 GHz!!!11 :) Jul 18 02:06:56 *goes on new eggto look for the niagara processor Jul 18 02:07:06 *creams pants* Jul 18 02:07:17 * orzo thinks niagara is on viagra Jul 18 02:07:18 8 cores at 1.2 ghz Jul 18 02:07:30 heh Jul 18 02:07:35 if you'd like to multiply by threads (when talking about multithreading) the niagara runs at 40 GHz Jul 18 02:07:55 guess you see how stupid this is :) Jul 18 02:08:17 well, thomasg, how do i compare the 266mhz neo cpu to an x86 computer? Jul 18 02:08:25 orzo, you can't Jul 18 02:08:26 were would it fall Jul 18 02:08:33 you can't even compare a pentium 4 with sun's niagara Jul 18 02:08:34 yes you can, doing benchmarks if nothing else Jul 18 02:08:48 of course, you can compare Jul 18 02:09:07 can you do it perfectly, no. Does that mean dont even try? Jul 18 02:09:43 we are runing roughly the same software anyway Jul 18 02:10:21 how far back would i have to go in the x86 ancestory to get openmoko running at roughly the speed it would run on a neo? Jul 18 02:11:36 can qemu do virtual timing? Jul 18 02:12:06 i suppose it probably doesnt know enough about the emulated cpu beyond teh instruction set Jul 18 02:12:24 it would be a handy feature Jul 18 02:15:59 orzo: you really can't compare a P4 to a Niagara. Jul 18 02:16:15 At some things (floating point transcoding, for instance) the P4 is going to win, hands down Jul 18 02:16:31 at other things (heavily multi-threaded applications), clearly the Niagara is going to win Jul 18 02:16:44 so Jul 18 02:16:59 you can put weights on everything and come up with a number if you want Jul 18 02:17:00 Indeed. Comparing processors, even with the same instruction set, is a very dicy business. Jul 18 02:17:50 In the end, it comes down to its performance at the task *you* happen to care about. Jul 18 02:18:39 sparq: basically, yeah Jul 18 02:19:21 imho comparing makes no sence in some cases Jul 18 02:19:42 of course you *can* compare, but it wouldn't bring nothing Jul 18 02:19:52 Sure it would Jul 18 02:19:53 how about put weights on everything and also minimum performance spec on different categories Jul 18 02:19:59 you can determine which will be faster at a particular task Jul 18 02:20:06 Which should ultimately be all that matters Jul 18 02:20:07 my toaster is clearly better at making toast than my laptop (that's debatable...) Jul 18 02:20:24 'course, I'm sure there are boundaries outside which you can say that x is better than y at any task Jul 18 02:20:47 You are always welcome to gin up some comparison to suit your particular needs, but there is no garantee that it will be relevant to someone else. Jul 18 02:20:55 so first come up with a minimum tolerable performance for the different categories and then use weights on everything to decide between the alternatives that meet those requirments Jul 18 02:21:37 well, probably only a few different measures would be sufficent Jul 18 02:21:39 sparq: Indeed, but that's rather different to saying that comparing processors is futile full stop Jul 18 02:21:53 like, developers care a lot about make and gcc and compiling Jul 18 02:22:05 But why would you be compiling on your phone? Jul 18 02:22:08 You wouldn't Jul 18 02:22:35 you would if it turned out to do a better job than your other computer Jul 18 02:22:36 Arachnid: Agreed. I'm just saying that I'm not iterested in random people's benchmarks. ^_^ Jul 18 02:22:43 interested, I mean Jul 18 02:23:03 also you would if you didnt bother to bring any other computer with you Jul 18 02:23:04 sparq: fair enough Jul 18 02:23:11 orzo: ssh Jul 18 02:23:20 * sparq puts away his pedantic stick Jul 18 02:23:26 ssh would be expensive i figure Jul 18 02:23:28 besides, it's not like I'm going to have a cross-compiler for the system ON my phone.. Jul 18 02:23:32 if you arent paying a flat internet rate Jul 18 02:23:46 usually the celular plans charge by teh kilobyte or some such Jul 18 02:23:47 (I realize I'm arguing semantics here) Jul 18 02:24:03 ssh ought to be cheap enough as long as you don't start using ncurses apps Jul 18 02:24:38 i used to code on my ti85 heh Jul 18 02:24:50 so why not a phone Jul 18 02:25:09 writing code, sure Jul 18 02:25:17 Ahh... I remembe Z80 assembly... Jul 18 02:25:22 * sparq waxes nostalgic Jul 18 02:25:23 so, what do you need there? an editor... Jul 18 02:25:31 eh Jul 18 02:25:39 you are writing code for the phone Jul 18 02:26:02 the phone is going to run it Jul 18 02:26:32 Qwell: It's an open source phone, so people can and will compile things on the Neo, and there is nothing you can do to stop them ^_^ Jul 18 02:26:35 so either its going to interpret what you wrote, or you are going to compile it on the phone or you are going to send your source somewhere to compile and then download the result back to the phone Jul 18 02:27:07 a cross-compiled cross-compiler...my head hurts Jul 18 02:27:17 I thought we were discussing performance differences? Jul 18 02:27:31 heh Jul 18 02:28:34 on the neo i think the biggest concern for performance is probably graphics and ui (and of course audio, but i figure thats going to be sufficent) Jul 18 02:29:20 will teh neo be able to emulate a nintendo with reasonable performance? Jul 18 02:29:29 Heh. Jul 18 02:29:31 NES or SNES? Jul 18 02:29:38 you're talking about 2 different things again Jul 18 02:29:44 a nintendo emulator isn't just graphics Jul 18 02:29:47 yeah, if i have to struggle to get things to update *instantaneously* in response to user input, i will immediately dump all of the openmoko middleware Jul 18 02:29:50 i love neo :) Jul 18 02:30:32 i know it isnt just graphics Jul 18 02:34:31 hey everyone Jul 18 02:35:00 hey everyone Jul 18 02:35:30 i'm planning to write a small application for the openmoko platform, should I create a page on the wiki, or is that only for the official applications ? Jul 18 02:36:20 i dont know Jul 18 02:36:31 what are you writing? Jul 18 02:36:48 (out of curiosity, i dont know the answer to your question regardless) Jul 18 02:37:29 a small application to get a list of the hotspots from a wifidog network, and compute the distance from the GPS coordinates to each hotspot Jul 18 02:38:52 is it possible to use the gsm hardware to hack together some adhoc phone-to-phone communication? Jul 18 02:39:07 i dont know :) Jul 18 02:42:26 orzo: highly unlikely, since there are no AT commands to do so, and you don't have access to the internals of the GSM modules Jul 18 02:43:14 orzo nope. that wouldnt be possible in gsm without disturbing the network Jul 18 02:43:14 by modules, you mean software or hardware? Jul 18 02:45:17 roh, even when theres no coverage in your area? Jul 18 02:46:42 orzo: the gsm modem is completely locked down, without hacking the firmware on it you only have access to the AT commands rwhitby is talking about Jul 18 02:47:21 you could probably get something to work without disturbing the network.. bandwidth might be really low, but i suppose two phones might be talking to their voice mail on teh network but secretly communicating with each other via bits that will be corrected by error correction Jul 18 02:47:33 heh Jul 18 02:48:04 orzo: but i doubt that the hardware could be made to do that anyway, its only designed to talk to the tower- in fact, the transmit and receive frequencies are different, so you probably couldn't even pick up a signal from another handset Jul 18 02:48:41 you might get away with something like that i guess, but it would take lots of hacking Jul 18 02:48:48 bluetooth would probably be easier :-) Jul 18 02:48:54 heh Jul 18 02:51:21 is the do it yourself gumstix stuff equally locked down? Jul 18 02:51:29 yeah Jul 18 02:51:37 same deal with using prebuilt modules Jul 18 02:52:15 about how big is the svn co of openmoko? Jul 18 02:52:45 i have gotten the openembedded tarball.. Jul 18 02:53:15 BlackBsd 340mb is the svn Jul 18 02:53:28 244mb here, including .svn files Jul 18 02:53:40 all in a whole you should have about 6-12gbyte space to build it including oe Jul 18 02:54:20 that prevented me from using my old laptop Jul 18 02:54:34 damn.. i will never get it. Jul 18 02:54:36 seems big Jul 18 02:54:37 my satelite service throttles me... Jul 18 02:54:47 It strikes me as too big as well. Jul 18 02:54:55 and a half broken svn tree is as good as no tree Jul 18 02:55:22 it didnt seem bad for me to co Jul 18 02:55:32 Aria its a whole distribution, not only a kernel. including all source-tarballs (the whole thing) Jul 18 02:56:16 thats bigger than the oe snapshot Jul 18 02:56:17 if it's 244mb including .svn files, i figure its roughly 122mb to download via co Jul 18 02:56:24 which was about 150mb Jul 18 02:56:26 * roh points to the fact that 2.5" 100gb sata hdds are dirt cheap by now ;) Jul 18 02:57:04 wont help my laptop Jul 18 02:57:12 pata is avail also Jul 18 02:57:31 well it seems silly to upgrade the lpatop just for this Jul 18 02:57:41 roh: Yes, but having to check out so much to build things is hard. I'm used to a far more modular build system. Jul 18 02:57:43 and if im upgrading it seems silly to just do the hard drive Jul 18 02:57:56 im not having an issue with size Jul 18 02:58:20 Aria the svn and mtn are the only huge blocks at start Jul 18 02:58:27 Right. Jul 18 02:58:36 my issue is my isp cuts my speed down then disconnects me every once and awhile if i keep requesting data... Jul 18 02:58:37 it sucks Jul 18 02:58:42 Aria all the OE packages download theit tarball and cache it when building Jul 18 02:58:44 i downloaded fine, but it's unfortunate i couldnt build with 2gigs Jul 18 02:58:45 But that's a lot of unneeded overhead. It's a big burden at first. Jul 18 02:58:56 i was thinking about doing this on my mobile laptop Jul 18 02:59:09 Yeah, I know. It's also annoying that OE builds so much host stuff, when I have it working right there outside the tree **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jul 18 02:59:59 2007