**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jul 18 02:59:59 2007 Jul 18 03:00:09 Aria for the host it doesnt't build that much stuff. only whats needed to cross-build the real thing Jul 18 03:00:24 meaning cross-cc, bitbake and so on Jul 18 03:00:32 perl_native? Jul 18 03:00:49 And I /have/ bitbake -- that's the thing. Already installed as part of my distro. Jul 18 03:01:11 Aria it also builds some deps instead of believing the user to have installed a working version. Jul 18 03:01:22 I know. that's really annoying. Jul 18 03:01:35 (or more, that I can't figure out if that's easy to make optional or not) Jul 18 03:01:36 the bitbake we use is patched since normal bitbake cannot handle external repos well enough Jul 18 03:01:58 Aaaye. Jul 18 03:03:02 so did i download an 157mb oe.mnt.bz2 then the oe source with openmoko? Jul 18 03:03:04 for example it couln't differnciate if an svn was updated or not and checked it out and tarballed the result every time again Jul 18 03:03:43 BlackBsd the oe.mnt.bz2 is just an snapshot of the mnt database to accelerate the checkout Jul 18 03:04:27 it gets updated after unpacking, but having a huge chunk speeds that up and lowers the load on the servers Jul 18 03:04:59 (has anyone submitted a patch to the bitbake developers for that?) Jul 18 03:05:04 is the patch being ported back upstream? Jul 18 03:05:04 * Aria is all about upstream integration Jul 18 03:05:13 Aria thats in the works Jul 18 03:05:18 Woot. Jul 18 03:05:23 of course. things need to go upstream Jul 18 03:05:27 oh, thanks Jul 18 03:05:34 didnt know that Jul 18 03:05:45 but first the patch needs to be updated to a more recent bitbake 1.8.x afaik Jul 18 03:06:11 i do not have the most recent info to that though. henryk was working on that Jul 18 03:10:27 i hope they sort the orders by something other than order number Jul 18 03:10:28 heh Jul 18 03:11:12 I hope they stick with order number, personally Jul 18 03:11:23 because you are in the first 500? Jul 18 03:11:31 I'm in the first 100 Jul 18 03:11:58 well if i were you, i'd hope they use the order numbers too Jul 18 03:12:02 HEhe Jul 18 03:14:13 sweet, i think my make setup has finished Jul 18 03:14:25 lets run it again to make sure. Jul 18 03:18:55 * ferric is installing ubuntu in a parallels VM right now Jul 18 03:24:03 ›® Jul 18 03:24:27 hm. Jul 18 03:24:29 that's an odd one Jul 18 03:25:14 Asian encoding? Jul 18 03:25:20 Sure looks it -- Big5? Jul 18 03:25:21 ferric: can I pm you? I have an offtopic question Jul 18 03:25:26 summatusmentis: sure. Jul 18 03:38:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wifidog_Hotspot_Finder]] [[User_talk:Myfanwy]] [[Direct.openmoko.com_order_process]] [[User:Myfanwy]] [[User_talk:Agent_X]] [[User:Agent_X]] Jul 18 03:48:12 anyone here? Jul 18 03:48:20 still no response for my order Jul 18 03:48:21 yes Jul 18 03:48:28 jackey: did you ready sean's email? Jul 18 03:48:33 (or the topic?) Jul 18 03:49:04 what email? He sent me an email to read SH1 Jul 18 03:50:07 this is more serious now. Jul 18 03:50:32 i am far behind the schedule. Jul 18 03:51:10 try to become a first Mass Production customer, but ... Jul 18 03:51:40 i just need a debug board, anyone can ship me one, i pay for that. Jul 18 03:53:09 ferric? Jul 18 03:53:43 what games come with openmoko ? Jul 18 03:54:28 and i have a sudoku program.. would like to port it to openmoko.. what should I do? can anyone guide me ? Jul 18 03:54:47 sudoku game? Jul 18 03:54:55 gtk based game? Jul 18 03:55:39 doom3 :-) Jul 18 03:55:44 tux racer Jul 18 03:56:37 i see here that the package manager requires kdelibs... Jul 18 03:56:45 3 that is Jul 18 03:57:23 so other kde apps might run becuase the libs are already present or staticly linked?? Jul 18 03:59:49 we don't use kde Jul 18 03:59:57 jackey: i'm sorry - i don't think they're set to handle demand Jul 18 04:00:29 jackey: its web based ... Jul 18 04:00:50 jackey: and there's really no way of getting them to go faster. Jul 18 04:01:01 i use php for webbased.. I do have one written using C Jul 18 04:01:33 ferric, that is why i am a little bit worried about openmoko. Jul 18 04:03:25 errk -- sorry Jul 18 04:03:29 my order number is 2013 Jul 18 04:03:33 cat jumped on my computer. Jul 18 04:03:36 * sparq scolds cat Jul 18 04:03:57 i just need to get a debug board and fix something Jul 18 04:04:21 jackey n.p. .. just come by, i have one here *duck* Jul 18 04:04:42 i am in Toronto right now Jul 18 04:04:56 but my engineers are in Nanjing, China Jul 18 04:04:57 that could be a problem, i'm in berlin Jul 18 04:05:19 ;) Jul 18 04:05:22 :) Jul 18 04:05:24 roh, thx Jul 18 04:05:34 wow, 2013 phones sold already. Jul 18 04:05:38 really? Jul 18 04:05:45 where's the figure on that Jul 18 04:05:50 has nothing to do with that Jul 18 04:05:50 debug board just seems to have a USB hub and some converted.. is it difficult to make it yourself jackey Jul 18 04:05:51 nice Jul 18 04:05:51 i hope this blows up... Jul 18 04:05:55 the order numbers started at about 1800 Jul 18 04:06:00 the first known is 1820 Jul 18 04:06:13 i've nearly got order #3900 Jul 18 04:06:15 BlackBsd thats wrong. its just the ticketnumber, and tickets are not only used for sales. Jul 18 04:06:29 code - no it wires into the debug port and has jtag Jul 18 04:06:31 every email asking something hits there Jul 18 04:06:41 codeshepherd, how can i glue one, i have no idea Jul 18 04:06:56 *and serial Jul 18 04:07:01 jackey: i am equally clueless Jul 18 04:07:44 codeshepherd the debugboard is a ftdi2232 dual usart which can do jtag on one port and serial on the second combined with an usb-hub for convenience Jul 18 04:07:50 any ideas on a concept visual on the new phone comming out in october? Jul 18 04:07:50 is it going to look the same Jul 18 04:07:54 figures... Jul 18 04:08:35 Sean told me that openmoko can do a mass production then Jul 18 04:08:53 i sent him an email about the volome and what kind of support we can get from openmoko Jul 18 04:08:57 !counter Jul 18 04:09:05 counter Jul 18 04:09:05 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in 03:55:24 (0.163±0.2 days) (1756;248) Jul 18 04:11:26 * ajmitch would guess that the 65% is a little off by now Jul 18 04:11:55 hrm Jul 18 04:12:09 jackey: you need to wait for the initial hump to get over Jul 18 04:12:34 ferric, i knew Jul 18 04:13:15 we booked a booth in Linux World as San Francisco on Aug. I really want to show the NEO there. Jul 18 04:13:39 * wiml is impatient for hardware! :) Jul 18 04:14:04 wiml, roger that Jul 18 04:14:31 wiml, i am only two hour drivers from where NEO made. Jul 18 04:15:20 i have been complaining lots here, almost everyday, WOA Jul 18 04:15:38 heh. frustrating Jul 18 04:16:01 jackey, bay area or taiwan ? Jul 18 04:16:12 bay area Jul 18 04:16:29 cool. im in mountain view ;-) Jul 18 04:16:39 welcome to join us. Company name: ArcherMind Technology Jul 18 04:17:16 where are you located? Jul 18 04:17:19 I thought all the manufacturing was being done in taiwan? what gets done in the bay area? Jul 18 04:17:27 jackey: complaining here won't make any difference... sean's the only one that can help you. Jul 18 04:17:34 wiml: they get shipped to fremont, ca from china Jul 18 04:17:37 (not taiwan) Jul 18 04:18:11 ferric: that makes sense Jul 18 04:18:20 ah, cupertino Jul 18 04:18:36 ferric, i sent him couple emails already. Hope he can help me to meet my schedule. Jul 18 04:19:09 codyl, you will find us very easily. I will reserve a gift for you *^_^* Jul 18 04:19:25 codyl: fremont, not cupertino Jul 18 04:19:32 erm, sorry. wrong answer :) Jul 18 04:19:40 now im just confused Jul 18 04:20:22 jackey, find you * where * ..? Jul 18 04:24:22 booth no.: L1420 Jul 18 04:24:33 oh, at LinuxWorld Jul 18 04:24:36 I get it Jul 18 04:24:46 I should register Jul 18 04:25:12 last year's was a bit disappointing Jul 18 04:26:13 codyl, do not count this year Jul 18 04:27:31 are you guys a chinese company ? Jul 18 04:30:38 anyone know what the reason for the most recent delay is? (from 16-july to the 23-july in the channel msg)? they just want to ship on a monday, or what? Jul 18 04:32:46 codyl, yes. Formal company is China MobileSoft, sold to PlamSource with 36M in 2004 Jul 18 04:33:06 sorry, previous company is China MobileSoft Jul 18 04:33:32 PalmSource sold to Access in 2005 with $1.6 Billion Jul 18 04:34:23 so you are chinese ? Jul 18 04:34:35 wiml: the phones are in Fremont, but it takes to print shipping labels, etc. Jul 18 04:34:57 yes, i am Jul 18 04:35:30 jackey, 我会中文。 :-) Jul 18 04:35:46 codyl, haha Jul 18 04:35:56 u in bay area? Jul 18 04:36:02 jackey, 对 Jul 18 04:36:18 i heard that google is "MAKING" phone os right now. Jul 18 04:36:33 ya some crap like that..Google is infesting my town.. Jul 18 04:37:11 jackey, im in mountain view Jul 18 04:37:17 heh Jul 18 04:37:20 Google send me an offer before, I did not go. Otherwise I may live in your area too Jul 18 04:37:22 I heard that google is putting up an orbiting laser platform that can index your THOUGHTS. and it uses ajax. Jul 18 04:39:00 jackey, they have tried to get everyone .. its scarey Jul 18 04:39:14 * juri_ raises her hand. google offer also. Jul 18 04:39:36 I swear they are going to start tearing down my favorite restaurants to build giftshops on castro street Jul 18 04:39:38 i may contact them and take them up on it. the economy in my area is kinda falling apart. Jul 18 04:40:08 codyl, it is all business i guess. Jul 18 04:40:20 same shit happen in China everyday Jul 18 04:40:44 jackey, they do pay well - and they have good perks and such Jul 18 04:40:57 jackey, are you from the mainland ? Jul 18 04:41:01 juri_: resist...the...BORG... Jul 18 04:41:08 codyl, yes Jul 18 04:41:12 ferric, exactly Jul 18 04:41:15 i am from Nanjing Jul 18 04:41:36 :) Jul 18 04:41:52 ferric: my house already looks like the borg are tennants. its just one step further... Jul 18 04:42:19 heh...someone added "can i has some money for a neo?" to the faq...hurrah Jul 18 04:42:23 jackey, cool- ive been learning chinese slowly for the past few years..been nothing but fun Jul 18 04:42:46 are u chinese? Jul 18 04:43:20 juri_: you have the google street team living in your house and the bug with the 8 camera attachment parked outside? Jul 18 04:43:48 most of my friends in US is learning Chinese because they married a chinese gal. Jul 18 04:44:17 jackey, my girlfriend is japanese :-P purely out of interest Jul 18 04:44:18 ferric, u saw that movie too? Jul 18 04:44:36 jackey: what movie? Jul 18 04:46:04 ferric: i have an 8 camera attachment vehicle already. didnt need no steenkin google. ;) Jul 18 04:46:20 * juri_ tried && failed to enter the newest darpa challenge. Jul 18 04:46:23 do not remember the name. It was a fake story about a big company stealing codes from young telants via cable Jul 18 04:46:57 what's the newest darpa challenege? Jul 18 04:47:07 * ferric is curious about this other 8 camera vehicle.. Jul 18 04:47:23 jackey: lol... that sounds like a BAD movie. Jul 18 04:47:57 juri_, are you making movie inside your car? Jul 18 04:48:04 just kidding Jul 18 04:48:45 OE.mtn.bz2 is coming :D Jul 18 04:49:53 OE.mtn.bz2, what is that? Jul 18 04:50:09 jackey: openembedded Jul 18 04:50:22 i'm installing makemokofile Jul 18 04:50:30 ferric, used angstrom ? Jul 18 04:50:30 ok... so have they shipped Jul 18 04:50:31 ? Jul 18 04:50:45 or do we really have to wait another week? Jul 18 04:51:19 codyl: no - what is? Jul 18 04:51:20 smartly, they have not billed me; or i might be upset ;-) Jul 18 04:51:32 btw, is there any good tools for building system? Jul 18 04:51:40 ferric, are you an embedded linux developer ? Jul 18 04:52:04 http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/ Jul 18 04:52:10 codyl: i'm just starting. Jul 18 04:52:54 I use it for robotics Jul 18 04:53:07 cool. I will check it out. Jul 18 04:55:10 time to sleep, bye Jul 18 04:56:25 jackey, 再见 Jul 18 05:38:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Mokopedia]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wifidog_Hotspot_Finder]] Jul 18 05:58:45 * CM mentiones http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/17/#20070717-sick-not-insane Jul 18 06:04:58 * wiml understands the delays a bit more Jul 18 06:06:47 There's nothing more frustrating than working with people who only draw pretty diagrams and write specification, but never do any real work at all Jul 18 06:06:56 heh Jul 18 06:07:46 I bet it is also frustrating to work with the people who only do the "real" technical work and who don't understand why there are always so many administrative delays Jul 18 06:08:09 (I try hard to be one of those people who only has to do the technical stuff... sometimes I succeed) Jul 18 06:08:18 Hehe Jul 18 06:09:01 It's hard, I agree. Always getting dragged into meetings and such.. :P Jul 18 06:09:27 zecke|sleep: http://blogs.gnome.org/xan/2007/07/17/epiphany-webkit/ Jul 18 06:16:10 anyway it was a good marketing move, that "insanity" post :) Jul 18 06:16:21 bad words spread faster... Jul 18 06:16:27 mickey|slides: How did the OpenMoko talk go? :) Jul 18 06:16:40 ynezz: True Jul 18 06:41:56 * ScaredyCat sighs Jul 18 07:13:16 Wow, LaF0rge's blog post is quite amazing ... Jul 18 07:14:56 this one? If you want a status update on OpenMoko .. Jul 18 07:21:55 morning Jul 18 07:28:30 the new one keesj Jul 18 07:28:52 http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/17/#20070717-sick-not-insane Jul 18 07:38:58 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]] [[Kernel]] Jul 18 08:26:00 morning all Jul 18 08:34:46 Morning Jul 18 08:36:49 mornin Jul 18 08:59:17 I've problem building devel image on Debian unstable with mokomakefile. Error on compiling coreutils-5.3.0, as I recall from errorlog "futimens" in utimens.h has conflicting type declaration Jul 18 09:00:00 is it possible this becours I've dlib2.6 ? Jul 18 09:00:30 s/becorse/because Jul 18 09:02:36 Any_Key I've had the same issue using gutsy. - yes its glib Jul 18 09:02:58 Any_Key I solved it using a changeroot environment with feisty Jul 18 09:03:32 Any_Key if you like you can download the chroot-image from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Test_Openmoko_Emulation_with_chroot_image Jul 18 09:08:29 kristian-m, looks nice, I'll first try to install glib2.4 somehow & recompile Jul 18 09:10:14 Any_Key have fun Jul 18 09:10:34 kristian-m, already :-) Jul 18 09:12:01 Anyone have anyidea where openmoko gets the original config from? Jul 18 09:13:02 ewanm89_laptop config for what? Jul 18 09:13:36 Well /etc/passwd ans /etc/group atm Jul 18 09:14:17 try cd /home/moko ; find ./ -iname etc Jul 18 09:17:19 ewanm89_laptop for the built rootfs there is a empty password set for root. or what is the question? Jul 18 09:18:16 roh: I'm trying to add myltiple users. Jul 18 09:18:42 heh.. thats a more generic oe question Jul 18 09:19:10 I programs needed to do it, now need to add a default user to the passwd file. Jul 18 09:19:48 ewanm89_laptop: Try asking in #oe maybe? Jul 18 09:20:05 A lot of people don't like using root user all the time. Jul 18 09:21:51 What this tells me is each package has it's own set of /etc files (as expected), so where are passwd and group Jul 18 09:21:52 ewanm89_laptop hehe... i'm shure that will be changed later... it just was not necessary for devels Jul 18 09:22:46 roh: I know, I got the plan, I'm just getting the basics in place (someones got to get on and do it). Jul 18 09:23:57 ./build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/linux-gta01-2.6.21.5-moko10-r1_0_0_2360_0/image/etc, ./build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/base-files-3.0.14-r61/install/base-files/etc or ./build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/base-files-3.0.14-r61/image/etc seem likely. Jul 18 09:24:08 * CM applauds ewanm89_laptop's effort :) Jul 18 09:24:17 hehe Jul 18 09:39:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Template:Languages]] [[Main_Page/cs]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Main_Page]] Jul 18 09:39:52 A lot of people? eveyone should not want to do that! Jul 18 09:39:54 mokobot: mokomakefile Jul 18 09:39:55 i guess mokomakefile is an automted method for downloading, updated, and compiling the latest openmoko code. Jul 18 09:40:21 gah stupis scrolly crap Jul 18 09:40:41 s/gah stupis scrolly crap/something like that/ Jul 18 09:40:41 ScaredyCat: What's the problem? Jul 18 09:40:42 ScaredyCat meant: something like that Jul 18 09:40:42 ScaredyCat meant: something like that Jul 18 09:40:52 wtf ! Jul 18 09:40:55 2 bots?! Jul 18 09:41:11 Yeah, sorry, but it will be better. Jul 18 09:41:26 A lot of people don't like using root user all the time. Jul 18 09:41:31 A lot of people? eveyone should not want to do that! Jul 18 09:41:32 Leaving. (courtesy of ewanm89_laptop). Jul 18 09:41:38 is what I meant.. Jul 18 09:41:52 Ah, I'm working on it. Jul 18 09:41:53 but i hadn't noticed about 20 hours had passed ;) Jul 18 09:42:36 ScaredyCat: I wanted to stop this with the bot: Jul 18 09:42:43 I really really hate my p910i :/ Jul 18 09:42:44 apt: source Jul 18 09:42:45 To build Debian packages from source code: first, add a deb-src line to your sources.list file. Then "apt-get build-dep _pkg_" and "apt-get -b source _pkg_" to retrieve the build-dependencies, and the source. The resulting .deb files will be in `pwd`. Jul 18 09:43:12 ScaredyCat: See the problem there. Jul 18 09:43:29 apt apt Jul 18 09:43:30 [apt] the debian package manager and nothing to do with ibot, infobot, jbot or perl Jul 18 09:43:58 So I've got a new bot setup (same codebase as apt). Jul 18 09:45:51 apt help Jul 18 09:46:21 helpful little fellow isn't he. Jul 18 09:47:21 heya Jul 18 09:47:59 herro Jul 18 09:50:38 hi Jul 18 09:51:04 Morning :) Jul 18 09:51:34 Morning :) Jul 18 09:52:10 hm the exam wasnt so good, the questions qas fair, but my knowledge faided a bit Jul 18 09:54:07 mokobot: mokomakefile Jul 18 09:54:07 [mokomakefile] an automted method for downloading, updated, and compiling the latest openmoko code. Jul 18 09:54:19 another bot? Jul 18 09:54:33 heh Jul 18 09:54:40 woglinde: But now it can have our own factfiles. Jul 18 09:54:41 woglinde: what exam? Jul 18 09:55:23 mobil communication ;) Jul 18 09:58:47 mokobot: stats Jul 18 09:58:47 Since Wed Jul 18 09:50:29 2007, there have been 0 modifications, 1 question, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 0 commands. I have been awake for 8m 23s this session, and currently reference 2 factoids. I'm using about 49508 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 0.52/0.05 child 0/0 Jul 18 09:59:25 mokobot: forget mokomakfile mokomakefile Jul 18 09:59:25 ewanm89_laptop: i didn't have anything called 'mokomakfile mokomakefile' to forget Jul 18 09:59:32 mokobot: forget mokomakefile mokomakefile Jul 18 09:59:33 ewanm89_laptop: i forgot mokomakefile mokomakefile Jul 18 10:04:08 mokobot: can I has an openmoko is No Jul 18 10:04:08 okay, ScaredyCat Jul 18 10:04:19 can I has an openmoko?? Jul 18 10:04:27 no ?? 's Jul 18 10:04:30 :/ Jul 18 10:04:50 mokobot: can I has an openmoko Jul 18 10:04:50 No Jul 18 10:04:59 anyone here with windows and openmoko phone ? Jul 18 10:05:07 *g* Jul 18 10:05:23 win-what... Jul 18 10:05:53 i want to know if the phone is detected on windows Jul 18 10:06:28 it'll probably be detected, by what as.. who knows... Jul 18 10:06:40 mass storage, bt dongle .... Jul 18 10:06:51 hmmm Jul 18 10:07:19 and we dont ahve any windows based software in pipeline to make phone sync/function with windows Jul 18 10:07:23 and OSX too Jul 18 10:07:34 no, but we'll need them Jul 18 10:08:05 well, unless we can just create conduits for outlook etc... and ringtones can be drap/dropped Jul 18 10:08:13 drag Jul 18 10:13:38 I thought we decided mass storage access might be a bad thing security wise. Jul 18 10:16:05 empty_mind: Quite a few people have mentioned Funambol, as a method of providing cross platform syncing Jul 18 10:16:43 i looked at funambol last year, it was implemented in java Jul 18 10:16:54 wibbit, you dont expect mass market end users to use funambol. Do you ? Jul 18 10:18:47 empty_mind: I'm not entirely sure if I expect mass market to use the openmoko just yet Jul 18 10:19:08 And, as one person pointed out which I think seems quite sound, Jul 18 10:19:34 Not THAT many people sync their phones with their PC's from a contact/backup perspective, and those that do, are either semi enthusiast or business Jul 18 10:21:22 Isn't there a well used cross platform system already available for various clients? Jul 18 10:21:57 I think the system is SyncML, which is open, it's the actual implementation of it Jul 18 10:22:35 So the integration into kmail, outlook, evolution, thunderbird,... already exists? Jul 18 10:23:27 Outlook: Don't be daft, Kmail: Probably, Evolution: There are plugins, Thunderbird: Not sure Jul 18 10:23:44 ewanm89_laptop: I am not really the best person to ask. Jul 18 10:23:56 ewanm89_laptop: that's not to say Idon't have opinions though :) Jul 18 10:23:59 As I thought then. Jul 18 10:25:31 wibbit: So all these businessmen that want to sync can't use there favourite OS that they force on the rest of the word? Jul 18 10:25:39 Nice. Jul 18 10:26:20 I am sure the female half of the species is also some what vexed by this possibility. Jul 18 10:26:53 wibbit: I did consider it. Jul 18 10:27:11 However, there ARE options out there, type "syncml outlook" in google, and you get a fair few results Jul 18 10:28:07 funambol make a syncml plugin for outlook Jul 18 10:29:27 http://www.funambol.com/opensource/project/compatibility.html Jul 18 10:30:18 openmoko is listed among service providers arounf funambol http://www.funambol.com/customers/ Jul 18 10:31:30 Maybe the paid devs are working on something. Jul 18 10:37:15 Has anyone got a neo yet? Jul 18 10:38:42 still using nokia, my mother can call me - so everything is fine :) Jul 18 10:39:03 so long as you don't have to edit a shell script to answer an incoming call :-) Jul 18 10:39:18 lol Jul 18 10:44:40 lol Jul 18 10:46:59 anyone using the qemu emulator to run openmoko on their desktop :- using terminal does your keyboard work? Jul 18 10:47:30 jpcass_: No, you have to emulate usb network and ssh in. Jul 18 10:47:43 or use the onscreen keyb Jul 18 10:47:56 you can emulate a usb-hid keyboard also Jul 18 10:48:10 ewanm: can you tell me how to do that ? Jul 18 10:48:21 roh: I should try that, as usb network isn't working for me. Jul 18 10:48:46 speedevil: can you tell me how to get the on screen keyboard up? Jul 18 10:48:52 ewanm89_laptop usb-network in qemu requires a module which is default not built on most distros Jul 18 10:48:55 jpcass_: There is information on the wiki about emulating network. Jul 18 10:49:15 roh: I'm on gentoo, the modules exist. Jul 18 10:50:19 jpcass_: There is a grey rectangle to the right of the menu, this brings up the onscreen keyboard. Jul 18 10:51:05 thanks ewanm got keyboard now. the networking emulation looks tricky...need new kernel modules... Jul 18 10:51:47 jpcass_: Hence why I haven't got it working. Jul 18 10:51:54 ;-) Jul 18 10:52:08 I get an error on the last command to run. Jul 18 10:53:30 at last ps on my emu-moko! Jul 18 11:03:12 so we don't get a respond to YES_I_DO, is there any way to know that they actually got/processed the order? Jul 18 11:04:55 not really Jul 18 11:05:10 i see... Jul 18 11:05:16 but i would expect them to send more emails if they dont get a responce Jul 18 11:06:08 you could email them and ask, but then, everyone is in the same situation as you Jul 18 11:06:15 so i wouldnt worry Jul 18 11:06:41 Psi: ok, thanks, i'll just sit tight Jul 18 11:06:54 kemp: watch your CC statement is the best idea Jul 18 11:07:00 yeah, good idea Jul 18 11:07:19 i keep getting blank emails- only way i knew to send a YES I DO was by watching the wiki! Jul 18 11:07:52 *blink* Jul 18 11:08:07 blank emails, thats weird Jul 18 11:08:48 yeah, havent heard anyone else having this problem - might be something in yahoo mail ... Jul 18 11:09:01 (script) planet: Koen Kooi: Webkit-gdk running on neo 400km way using remote-X http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/webkit-gdk-running-on-neo-400km-way-using-remote-x Jul 18 11:10:07 bet that's fast :P Jul 18 11:16:40 you're not really missing that much jpcass_ Jul 18 11:18:17 is it basically 'thank you very much, please wait' Jul 18 11:19:18 errm, yeah... Jul 18 11:19:25 if you're being polite Jul 18 11:36:57 hey all Jul 18 11:39:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Openstreetmap]] [[Main_Page/cs]] [[GPS_Navigation]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Main_Page]] Jul 18 11:39:12 Hey skuff Jul 18 11:40:05 do u know if theres an icq-like project fpr openmoko? Jul 18 11:40:06 skuff: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 18 11:41:01 skuff: It has been bought up several times, but I don't think anything has been started yet. Jul 18 11:42:23 A port of pidgin keeps getting mentioned. Jul 18 11:42:33 was gonna suggest a port of GAIM/Pidgin Jul 18 11:42:41 Or something telepahy based Jul 18 11:42:48 id like to write an ui for libpurple Jul 18 11:42:56 I'll repeat question, I've a problem building devel image on Debian unstable with mokomakefile. Error on compiling coreutils-5.3.0, as I recall from errorlog "futimens" in utimens.h has conflicting type declaration Jul 18 11:43:06 any suggestions? Jul 18 11:43:54 Any_Key: Without the exact error message I don't know. Jul 18 11:43:55 * CM has non seen that error Jul 18 11:44:06 *sigh* Not.. Jul 18 11:44:48 ewanm89_laptop, heh wait a minute/ Jul 18 11:45:39 http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/webkit-gdk-running-on-neo-400km-way-using-remote-x Jul 18 11:47:22 ewanm89_laptop, http://pastebin.com/mdfbb425 Jul 18 11:49:11 has everyone seen this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/17/gps_galileo_tieup_could_be_agreed/ ? Jul 18 11:50:33 Any_Key: you said Debian unstable, right? Jul 18 11:50:46 rwhitby, yeah Jul 18 11:50:47 Yes, but does anyone know for sure that there's no updates needed to the hardware? Jul 18 11:51:05 webjames: seems like a reasonable position for the EU to be taking really. Jul 18 11:51:11 webjames: I'm assuming old gps chips should work, the frequency and all is the same Jul 18 11:51:17 rwhitby, glib2.6 Jul 18 11:51:44 CM: GPS has a limited in hardware number of satellites - there can be only 30! Jul 18 11:51:52 (to paraphrase highlander) Jul 18 11:51:57 it's combining the gallio and gps systems, i think to get the advantages of using both you might need a dual receiver Jul 18 11:52:02 SpeedEvil: Ouch, what crap.. Jul 18 11:52:03 Any_Key: I'd try proving it's not Debian unstable's fault first :-) Jul 18 11:52:05 There are already 26 Jul 18 11:52:11 Or is it 28 Jul 18 11:52:15 SpeedEvil: got a source for that statement? Jul 18 11:52:34 I'm speaking here of the basic L1 code. Jul 18 11:52:52 There are 32 possible PRNs - sequences to generate spreading codes. Jul 18 11:52:59 2 of these are reserved. Jul 18 11:53:02 so essentially a limited number of bits for satellite id? Jul 18 11:53:11 Not quite. Jul 18 11:53:34 The bits are an index into a small configuration table, to setup the psuedo-random generators. Jul 18 11:53:48 The psuedo-random signal is different per satellite Jul 18 11:53:54 and there are only 32 defined Jul 18 11:54:34 The signal is recieved by knowing the PRN sequence per satellite, and comparing the signal recieved with the signal you know must have been sent. Jul 18 11:54:36 who was it that needed some stuff on computer room ac ???? Jul 18 11:54:59 are there any satellite orbits antipodean to each other? i.e. pairs of satellites that you can guarantee will never both be visible at once from a receiver? Jul 18 11:55:02 as I see I has declaration of futimens in /usr/include/sys/stat.h line 370: "extern int futimens (int __fd, __const struct timespec __times[2]) __THROW;" Jul 18 11:55:18 on Debian machine Jul 18 11:55:27 cjb: in principle yes, in practice, that's gonna screw up most recievers. Jul 18 11:55:48 cjb: as they will only expect one satellite per PRN Jul 18 11:56:04 I'm not saying that this can't be done for future use, on a slightly different signal. Jul 18 11:56:23 right, so you'd need to generate custom ephemeris for different locations, which would be absolutely horrid. Jul 18 11:56:24 and /home/moko/build/tmp/work/i686-linux/coreutils-native-5.3.0-r1/coreutils-5.3.0/lib/utimens.h has differrent declaration Jul 18 11:56:25 But it will not work on current recievers Jul 18 11:56:33 And different times. Jul 18 11:56:38 unworkably horrid. Jul 18 11:56:40 Teh satellites are in 12 hour orbits Jul 18 11:56:43 Any_Key: no such definition of futimens in stat.h on my Debian stable. Jul 18 11:56:55 looks like unstable has bitten you Jul 18 11:56:58 Also, when both are on the horizon, you could see both Jul 18 11:57:58 rwhitby, the problem as I see remainsin ubuntu to Jul 18 11:58:18 SpeedEvil: right, i forgot to allow for height of orbit Jul 18 11:58:43 Any_Key: what glibc is that running? Jul 18 11:58:57 The 'newer' codes that some of the GPS satellites are transmitting fixes this though. Jul 18 11:59:00 (the 32 limit) Jul 18 11:59:09 30 Jul 18 11:59:12 "unbuntu" is not a very specific term when tracking down library version differences Jul 18 11:59:39 rwhitby, 2.6-2 in unstable Jul 18 12:00:14 unstable again. I'm afraid you're going to have to get used to stuff like this if you run unstable when building openmoko. Jul 18 12:00:27 rwhitby, said gutsy has the problem Jul 18 12:00:38 SpeedEvil: right, so will older/current receivers have problems with the newer codes? Jul 18 12:00:44 No. Jul 18 12:00:50 They simply don't pick them up. Jul 18 12:00:57 It's a lock and key sort of thing. Jul 18 12:01:15 The reciever has 30 'locks' it can choose between. Jul 18 12:01:24 Only the signal from the specified satellite fits them. Jul 18 12:01:30 i guess in some cases a firmware fix will resolve it, but in others the hardware will only handle those 30 codes Jul 18 12:01:36 rwhitby, looks like I've to downgrade ;-) Jul 18 12:01:40 In most cases, it's hardware. Jul 18 12:01:46 There are signal changes too. Jul 18 12:02:10 rwhitby, or chroot myself to stable Jul 18 12:02:35 yeah, chroot to etch would do it. Jul 18 12:03:04 * SpeedEvil waves. Off to collect garden funiture. Jul 18 12:03:07 ^r Jul 18 12:04:53 rwhitby, good, thanks a lot Jul 18 12:06:29 the iphone is a revolution in phone technologies. here are the instructions for using a custom ringtone: http://www.hacktheiphone.com/iphone_ringtone_installation.html Jul 18 12:06:57 this is why we want an open platform... 23 steps to change the ringtone on the iphone, including hacking the firmware. Jul 18 12:07:06 that's just nucking futs. Jul 18 12:07:49 lol Jul 18 12:08:07 * Any_Key debootstarpping etch Jul 18 12:08:35 all i want is a terminal and ssh on my phone :) Jul 18 12:09:15 and a decent screen and keyboard Jul 18 12:09:18 i want a reasonable way to develop software - and it's only going to happen with open source Jul 18 12:11:37 and more sensors Jul 18 12:11:42 will there be usb-keyboard support? ... or usb-mouse :P Jul 18 12:11:51 provide power Jul 18 12:12:05 I would have like 2x4 buttons on the neo Jul 18 12:12:05 by the power of greyskull.... Jul 18 12:12:33 skuff: neo has unpowered usb so you powered hub inbetween Jul 18 12:12:45 skuff: any usb keyboard supported by linux should work Jul 18 12:13:01 bluetooth is a nicer way though Jul 18 12:13:08 bluetooth keyboard is prolly better Jul 18 12:13:09 for neo Jul 18 12:13:27 http://www.t3.co.uk/__data/assets/image/279644/iTechBluetoothKeyboard_445.jpg Jul 18 12:13:31 cant wait to order the next neo :) Jul 18 12:13:40 less wires is always better when you are on the move Jul 18 12:13:57 right Jul 18 12:14:11 i don't know about the security of the bluetooth keyboards, though Jul 18 12:14:14 sucks that they need batteries Jul 18 12:14:41 i don't see a problem with that Jul 18 12:14:53 guaqua if you dont know the pin its safety Jul 18 12:14:53 rechargeables work well Jul 18 12:15:10 I do wonder about the accelerometers Jul 18 12:15:11 woglinde: what kind of encryption does it use? Jul 18 12:15:16 woglinde: how easy is it to snoop the traffic and deduce the pin though? Jul 18 12:15:29 gps + accelerometer for "normal" movements rocks Jul 18 12:15:35 cjb_ie hm Jul 18 12:15:36 sorry Jul 18 12:15:41 the pin isnt enough Jul 18 12:15:55 in first contact the devices handles key Jul 18 12:15:57 like ssh Jul 18 12:16:02 and store them Jul 18 12:16:09 and than they have sesseions keys Jul 18 12:16:21 depending on the stored key Jul 18 12:23:27 counter Jul 18 12:23:27 (last update 2007-07-14 16:40) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in a day 11:48:13 (1.492±1.5 days) (1757;248) Jul 18 13:02:18 * ScaredyCat stares into the channel Jul 18 13:02:59 * Any_Key stares ob ScaredyCat Jul 18 13:03:17 don't you ob me Jul 18 13:03:27 oc Jul 18 13:03:41 ko Jul 18 13:03:43 ck Jul 18 13:03:48 ono Jul 18 13:03:50 hm Jul 18 13:03:58 aaaa OK Jul 18 13:11:27 mokobot: seen cjb_ie Jul 18 13:11:27 cjb_ie is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 13 messages. Is idling for 56m 11s, last said: 'woglinde: how easy is it to snoop the traffic and deduce the pin though?'. Jul 18 13:12:41 ewanm89_laptop: 'sup? Jul 18 13:12:48 or were you looking for cjb Jul 18 13:14:38 cjb_ie: Heh, so you're not cjb? Confusing.. Jul 18 13:15:11 i used to be a cjb many years ago, but had too many nick collisions on different irc networks. Jul 18 13:15:37 then i registered cjb.ie and decided this was a good compromise. Jul 18 13:16:14 I was testing the bot. Jul 18 13:16:17 gtg be Jul 18 13:16:25 * CM wonders if cbrake has a middle name starting with j and could be cjb_the_third on this channel Jul 18 13:18:10 mokobot: seen cjb Jul 18 13:18:10 ewanm89_laptop: i haven't seen 'cjb' Jul 18 13:18:19 bye Jul 18 13:29:22 ewon: Jul 18 13:29:29 err Jul 18 13:29:51 seen openmoko deliveries Jul 18 13:29:57 seen openmoko deliveries? Jul 18 13:29:59 seen openmoko deliveries?? Jul 18 13:30:04 sigh Jul 18 13:30:10 seen god Jul 18 13:30:11 mokobot: seen openmoko deliveries? Jul 18 13:30:27 sean bean Jul 18 13:31:10 waiting for godot! Jul 18 13:31:36 mokobot: seen mokobot Jul 18 13:31:56 mokobot: seen the light Jul 18 13:32:37 s/godot/mokobot/ Jul 18 13:33:02 mokobot: seen death Jul 18 13:34:14 mokobot: destroy your self Jul 18 13:34:28 ScaredyCat: ? Jul 18 13:34:36 typo ewon Jul 18 13:34:46 k Jul 18 13:35:16 FYI: 15:26 -!- mokobot [n=ewanm89@host86-153-90-25.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] Jul 18 13:36:21 we don't care.... Jul 18 13:36:30 i cant has bot Jul 18 13:36:36 we're used to saking questions and getting no answers ;) Jul 18 13:36:57 ScaredyCat: Hehe.. Sad but true ;) Jul 18 13:39:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:ExpansionSpacer]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:Expansion_Back]] [[Introduction/cs]] [[Main_Page/cs]] Jul 18 14:14:50 * ScaredyCat kicks sand Jul 18 14:51:25 hi Jul 18 14:54:40 hi Jul 18 14:59:56 any news of people getting ups tracking codes? Jul 18 15:00:00 Nope. Jul 18 15:00:05 Nor getting phones. Jul 18 15:00:11 Nor getting CCs charged. Jul 18 15:00:30 Nor hearing wandering minstrels proclaiming the wonders of the Neo1973 throughout the land. Jul 18 15:00:41 I was just about to make a quick comment that I've never been so eager to see money disappear from my bank :) Jul 18 15:00:53 ditto Jul 18 15:00:58 ok. the 'projects of interest?' thread on community list has a lot of neat ideas. Jul 18 15:02:36 Many are covered in some way on the wishlists. Jul 18 15:02:56 Now at least [[Wish List]] is sort-of-readable again. Jul 18 15:03:06 SpeedEvil: was it you talking about a touch strip on the side of the case? Jul 18 15:03:17 I've talked of that in the past. Jul 18 15:03:29 It is one of the hardware options I intend to implement. Jul 18 15:04:01 * SpeedEvil is openmoko@mauve.pluss.com Jul 18 15:07:30 SpeedEvil: implement only for yourself? or will this case mod be available for sale? Jul 18 15:10:32 I intend over the several weeks after I obtain a Neo, to offer various stuff for sale. Jul 18 15:11:09 SpeedEvil: with an RFID antenna around the perimeter of the inside of the Neo case, what's the maximum distance at which an RFID can be read? Jul 18 15:11:27 heh. Jul 18 15:11:30 This will vary from simple devices, that plug into the debug port and bluetooth port, and add options like touchpads, accelerometers, and 'stuff'. Jul 18 15:11:51 DukeOfUrl: as that antenna is very sure not to have the correct frequency ... 0 :-p Jul 18 15:11:52 DukeOfUrl: some 5-10cm or so. Jul 18 15:12:04 Probably not 20. Jul 18 15:12:18 SpeedEvil: in doing so, we'd lose bluetooth? Jul 18 15:12:22 The signal falls off as distance^4 Jul 18 15:12:25 summatusmentis: no. Jul 18 15:12:42 oh, I misunderstood what plugging into the bluetooth port meant Jul 18 15:12:44 distance^4? is that because it can only receive what it sends? Jul 18 15:12:45 Bluetooth module plugs into another socket Jul 18 15:12:49 er, send what it receives Jul 18 15:13:05 SpeedEvil: is an RFID antenna a coil or can it be a single strand? Jul 18 15:13:08 galexande: It's sort-of-that Jul 18 15:13:20 For low-frequency stuff, it's gotta be a coil Jul 18 15:13:28 SpeedEvil: interesting... keep me posted will you? Jul 18 15:14:11 summatusmentis: A page will at some point appear in the wiki if I end up with stuff for sale. Jul 18 15:15:31 SpeedEvil: cool Jul 18 15:15:41 qprox SpeedEvil? Jul 18 15:15:50 * summatusmentis leaves for a while Jul 18 15:16:52 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch Jul 18 15:17:50 http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/ri-ant-s01c-00.html DukeOfUrl: Jul 18 15:17:57 ScaredyCat qprox? Jul 18 15:18:11 for the touch strip.. ? Jul 18 15:18:22 qprox do some nice stuff in that line Jul 18 15:19:10 Ah - no. Jul 18 15:19:11 AD Jul 18 15:19:13 http://www.qprox.com/products/qslide_qt411.php Jul 18 15:19:29 they've got a nice 16 input capacitance A/D for $1.6 in 1000s, over I2C Jul 18 15:19:43 * Stephmw watches the US dollar freefall Jul 18 15:20:30 http://www.freeopenmoko.com/ <-- wtf! Jul 18 15:20:33 !google 1 dollar in pounds Jul 18 15:20:35 1 U.S. dollar = 0.491086775 British pounds Jul 18 15:20:42 neat, scaredycat Jul 18 15:20:45 oh wait, didnt see the lists Jul 18 15:20:50 * DukeOfUrl watches all the EU tourists in US buying cheap goods Jul 18 15:21:12 are there any tourists in the US? Jul 18 15:21:22 ouch Jul 18 15:21:28 Yeah, but they're called terrorists. Jul 18 15:21:56 Sup3rkiddo: yeah thats pretty hideous Jul 18 15:22:08 "Mark from New York Jul 18 15:22:08 I couldn't believe I got my free OpenMoko so FAST! It only took me 2 days of doing surveys to get it too." Jul 18 15:22:08 i've decided that i could use one of these touch slide things to do strafe, and then i could play doom on the neo Jul 18 15:22:45 don-o, hehe, "I got my openmoko fast", i have openmoko too...its the neo which i am lacking Jul 18 15:22:57 "Stylus Jul 18 15:22:57 Heavy Duty, Pen, Laser, Flash Light" Jul 18 15:23:11 get that through customs. Jul 18 15:23:31 <_diego_> !google 1 dollar in euro Jul 18 15:23:32 1 U.S. dollar = 0.725478816 Euros Jul 18 15:23:54 !google 1 dollar in baht Jul 18 15:23:54 1 U.S. dollar = 30.1577249 Thai baht Jul 18 15:23:55 "However, when based on Open standards, they will deliver ubiquitous computing and vanish. " Jul 18 15:23:59 awesome Jul 18 15:24:08 I want a vanishing OS Jul 18 15:24:14 * don-o doesnt want his phone to vanish Jul 18 15:25:19 !google 1 dollar in zobs Jul 18 15:25:21 Did you mean: 1 dollar in jobs ? | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=1+dollar+in+zobs&safe=off&lr=lang_all&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi | Day and Night - PalmGear.com: Download P @ http://palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.showsoftware&PartnerREF=&siteid=1&prodid=52879&siteid=1%20class=l Jul 18 15:25:32 yoink! Jul 18 15:26:16 what?? Jul 18 15:26:20 moo Jul 18 15:26:47 ScaredyCat, poor cdbot2 ..don't abuse him :D Jul 18 15:27:17 can I just point out that if there's anyone reading this who should be charging cc's and packing boxes... if you don't ship by 3:30 today (CA time) I wont get it by Friday... Jul 18 15:27:26 galexande: I hope to have one through-the-case touchpad, http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/8/89/FIC-neo1973_small.jpg/200px-FIC-neo1973_small.jpg basically over the FIC logo, up and down to 5mm or so away from the edge of the case, and left and right to more or less the edges of the phone. Jul 18 15:28:13 And a touch-strip maybe the middle half of each side of the top of the case. Jul 18 15:28:28 Also, proper dock-port on the back of my phone. Jul 18 15:31:15 like the ipod type thing SpeedEvil? Jul 18 15:31:27 taking audio etc all to 1 port Jul 18 15:32:28 they do wheel stuff too galexande Jul 18 15:32:40 ScaredyCat: basically a USB port only. Jul 18 15:32:43 yeah the strip can be configured in any shape Jul 18 15:38:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Kheldar]] [[Unresolved_Hardware_Questions]] [[Translation]] [[Wish_List]] [[User:Micktaiwan]] [[Talk:Mebot]] [[Mebot]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[FAQ]] [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Neo1973:_GTA01Bv4_versus_GTA02_comparison]] and other changes Jul 18 15:39:16 grrr 7-23 Jul 18 15:39:33 i wonder if i complain every day if it will help things to go better next time Jul 18 15:39:57 They'll send you the ninjas. Jul 18 15:40:19 well if they're sending ninjas, how about they bring some phones Jul 18 15:42:40 god damn slow-charging credit card Jul 18 15:43:15 let's send THEM some ninjas to take some work off the shoulders of harald ;) Jul 18 15:43:33 yeah it seems like they should at least have some sort of ecommerce guru Jul 18 15:43:48 maybe a facilities manager wrapped into that Jul 18 15:45:06 for realz. im surrounded by web developers all day and when i read openmoko.com is a perl cgi script i gaged Jul 18 15:45:16 trust me, you don't want an appointed ecommerce guru from within a big company. let alone an xyz manager... Jul 18 15:45:32 or even just a checkout girl from wallmart Jul 18 15:45:39 oh of course, i don't mean they need to do it corporate style Jul 18 15:45:47 ok. Jul 18 15:46:02 but there are dozens of people like me who are serious programmers but who have been put in charge of ecommerce sites before and wouldn't object to it as the center of a job Jul 18 15:46:02 there is nothing wrong with perl Jul 18 15:46:09 but would, like harald, get pissed off if it was added on top of a full plate Jul 18 15:46:38 * Stephmw nods Jul 18 15:46:42 'coz I guess Neo can attract an external ecommerce guru, who *does* know his stuff :) Jul 18 15:46:52 daMaestro: perl is fine but it sounds like it was hand-coded without the help of a web framework Jul 18 15:47:04 web frameworks are bullshit :) Jul 18 15:47:16 you know, there *is* web development outside of frameworks Jul 18 15:47:51 the point: it got the job done? yes? Jul 18 15:47:54 harald's gripes though...he had to deal with merchant bank issues. that's nothing if it's what you're doing, but if you're doing it in a hurry because it absolutely needs to get done and no one else is doing it, it's a huge stressful headache Jul 18 15:48:01 just use the 'proper' framework ? Jul 18 15:48:36 but there must be someone in FIC who knows the merchant bank stuff Jul 18 15:48:48 kero, fic is mostly "b2b" Jul 18 15:48:50 it's not the kind of wheel that needs any reinventing... Jul 18 15:48:51 arse meet elbow Jul 18 15:49:12 so if they use fic staff then everything will be managed as if they are shipping 30,000 units to at&t Jul 18 15:49:12 Even an ebay store would have been better. Jul 18 15:49:41 galexande: as long as they send the bill to at&t :) Jul 18 15:49:50 well an ebay store is just as much work to set up. the problem isn't the approach they chose, but the fact that the same guy was doing it as was doing everything else Jul 18 15:49:56 i'm not saying there's many of those someones, or that it is easy to find them. Jul 18 15:50:05 Yeah there are lots of pre-built ecommerce sites that they could have used. They could even have set up an amazon associate site to handle it Jul 18 15:50:13 An ebay store is _much_less_ work to setup - if you're willing to do paypal. Jul 18 15:50:28 Or any other third party payment processor. Jul 18 15:50:46 paypal is probably the least convenient of any merchant banks. it's not hard to set up what they did set up. the hard part is making it all come together. Jul 18 15:50:58 and that's pretty much the same task no matter what frameworks or so on you use Jul 18 15:50:59 A bit worrying that their first thought was "right let's code something from scratch" rather than "how can we use an existing infrastructure to meet our goal quickly" Jul 18 15:51:10 Ebay/paypal - from the users perspective - just works. Jul 18 15:51:13 why are you all focused on the code Jul 18 15:51:14 It's really simple to setup. Jul 18 15:51:15 the code was nothing Jul 18 15:51:22 the code is not the hard part of the task, if it was, harald would have done it and smiled about it Jul 18 15:51:24 using RT was a giant, flaming mistake. Jul 18 15:51:37 It's already setup, and there are no glitches, as it's been used for billions of transactions. Jul 18 15:52:13 ebay/paypal does nothing about shipping schedules, inventory, shitty merchant banks, good shipping rates, distribution/packing, and so on Jul 18 15:52:18 paypal *is* a glitch Jul 18 15:52:58 if they did paypal then they would have had to hire a lawyer by now to deal with the slashdot weenies who can't comprehend a paypal refund when they send CANCEL instead of YES_I_DO Jul 18 15:52:59 It fixes the merchant bank thing. And there are trivial solutions to print labels from paypal invoices. Jul 18 15:54:16 paypal is one merchant bank with extraordinarily poor rates, an extraordinarily unfortunate contract, and an interface which is not really any more or less convenient than any other Jul 18 15:54:27 their only advantage is that they don't require you to have a pre-existing relationship with them to use them. but FIC is already related to many banks Jul 18 15:54:45 AFAIK FIC owns a bank in Taiwan. Jul 18 15:54:52 But many users already know it. And there are tens of thousands of turnkey stores out there. Jul 18 15:55:04 They soud evil. Jul 18 15:55:24 the store is not the hard part. the store that they have is like 100 lines of perl code Jul 18 15:55:35 it would take 100 lines of perl code just to satisfactorily interface with ebay Jul 18 15:55:43 one way or the other Jul 18 15:55:44 You don't interface with ebay. Jul 18 15:56:01 You setup a store, and use one of the many turnkey packages to print your labels. Jul 18 15:56:08 what's the problem? Jul 18 15:56:16 I blame aliens Jul 18 15:56:29 it seems like the webfront isn't much of an issue Jul 18 15:56:31 This is literally an hour or under of work, and pretty much 'just works'. Jul 18 15:56:41 Takes payment, prints labels, ... Jul 18 15:57:03 i would be pissed if i had been charged, and the phone had not shipped as of yet Jul 18 15:57:08 speed, you should go work for openmoko.com, you are freshly naive about business issues :) Jul 18 15:57:18 at this point i am just a non-very-happy potential customer Jul 18 15:57:36 i've still not lost any money Jul 18 15:57:38 I know about the potential issues - it's just that untested code is BAD. Jul 18 15:57:45 I don't get it, what's the big deal? Jul 18 15:57:56 untested code is the absolute least of their worries, though. Jul 18 15:58:05 galexande: I also think he's freshly naive about *Taiwanese* business issues ;-) Jul 18 15:58:14 duffy, indubitably Jul 18 15:58:23 I've emailed laforge with the details of a company I've dealth with before that does ecommerce solutions Jul 18 15:58:25 Sherlock ? Jul 18 15:58:28 I live here and it's a madness :-) Jul 18 15:58:37 i loved reading harald's description of taiwenese computer stores, it reminded me of chinatown :) Jul 18 15:58:48 I agree with SpeedEvil here. You can say that they have a number of challenges coming up but that doesn't mean that doing a half-assed job of the ordering system was the right thing to do Jul 18 15:58:59 galexande: I laughed too. I can only relate too well Jul 18 15:59:04 And little things like online order status are always nice... Jul 18 15:59:42 hmm, this is all for development hardware Jul 18 16:00:31 I'm of the opinion that technology is not the issue here - that's based on Harald's blog entries and my personal experience here :-) Jul 18 16:00:56 SpeedEvil: reading the scroolback, there can be 32 PRNs in a navstar almanac Jul 18 16:00:58 jgm: I don't think they did a half-assed job Jul 18 16:01:01 No - it's trying too hard to get a solution that would work for tens of thousands of phones. Jul 18 16:01:05 we're ordering P1, not P2 :) Jul 18 16:01:08 one thing that might have been nice about using an off-site ecommerce solution would have been better slashdot resistance Jul 18 16:01:39 ckuethe: Indeed - however 2 of them are reserved and failed, indicating satellites that should not be used for generating positions. Jul 18 16:01:41 15 is not in the almanac right now - up until mar 15, they were doing end-of-life testing on it Jul 18 16:02:03 ckuethe: or it may be 4- I don't remember, and I can't find where I found the info. Jul 18 16:02:39 Kero, if the issues are not address now, p2 wont go any better Jul 18 16:02:59 we are expected to be a large part of the development of the platform. Jul 18 16:03:04 and PRN32/SVN23 (transmitted as #0 in the NAV stream) went into the almanac on jun 21 Jul 18 16:03:13 it is our job to state opinion on things like this Jul 18 16:03:49 SpeedEvil: subscribe to the status lists .... Jul 18 16:03:51 http://cgls.uscg.mil/mailman/listinfo/nanu Jul 18 16:04:09 http://cgls.uscg.mil/mailman/listinfo/gps Jul 18 16:04:26 or http://www.celestrak.com/GPS/ Jul 18 16:05:18 october is a ridiculous date and anyone who believes it is high, btw :) Jul 18 16:05:44 duh Jul 18 16:05:44 (registering my prediction) Jul 18 16:05:52 dude, like , woooaaahh - you know... Jul 18 16:06:04 ckuethe: Hmm. Jul 18 16:06:31 ckuethe: I'm completely sure I'm right, however, as I can't find anything to back it up, I guess I must be mistaken. Jul 18 16:07:34 if you read the archives, you'll see that prn15 was totally decommissioned on mar15 Jul 18 16:07:43 it'll be recycled Jul 18 16:08:22 I knew there were 'failed' bits in the nav message - but I also thought there were specific PRNs for failed satellites, in order to make sure they can't interfere. Jul 18 16:08:39 there's a way to mark the health of the satellite Jul 18 16:08:46 health field should be 0 Jul 18 16:08:56 Yeah - in the nav message. And also accuracy estimates Jul 18 16:08:57 any non-zero bits detail the various failure modes Jul 18 16:09:23 also, when a satellite is unhealthy it transmits something other than the usual PRN Jul 18 16:09:39 what that is is not published Jul 18 16:09:48 because you're not supposed to be able to track it Jul 18 16:10:18 daMaestro: they are learning with P1 what the issues are. So they will solve them before P2, I trust. Jul 18 16:10:32 You mean one other than the defined 0-31? - using different taps? Jul 18 16:10:51 "ON 2 APR 2007, SVN23 WILL RESUME TRANSMITTING L-BAND UTILIZING PRN32. Jul 18 16:10:51 AT L-BAND ACTIVATION, SVN23/PRN32 WILL BE UNUSABLE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. Jul 18 16:10:51 ADDITIONALLY, NO BROADCAST ALMANACS WILL INCLUDE SVN23/PRN32.  FUTURE Jul 18 16:10:51 NANUS WILL NOTIFY USERS OF ANY CHANGES TO THE ABOVE-STATED STATUS." Jul 18 16:11:11 however the broadcast almanac recently began including prn32 Jul 18 16:11:34 my oldest active receiver at the moment (sirfstar2) doesn't mind Jul 18 16:11:48 haven't tried my oncore or my jupiter yet Jul 18 16:12:03 You mean 32 - as in 1-32? Jul 18 16:12:12 0-32 Jul 18 16:12:14 0-31 Jul 18 16:12:34 but slot 0 in the almanac/emphemeris maps to prn32 Jul 18 16:12:39 32 diddn't have a defined tap sequence did it? Jul 18 16:12:45 oh - right Jul 18 16:12:54 I see, it's a naming issue Jul 18 16:13:09 "ON 27 JUN 2007, AFTER 2200 ZULU, GPS WILL TRANSITION SVN23 (PRN32) INTO THE BROADCAST ALMANACS FOR ALL SATELLITES.  THIS ALMANAC TRANSITION, ONE SATELLITE AT A TIME, WILL REQUIRE APPROXIMATELY 24 HOURS TO COMPLETE. BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER TRANSITION, SVN23 (PRN32) WILL REMAIN UNUSABLE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.  FUTURE NANUSWILL NOTIFY USERS OF ANY CHANGES TO THE ABOVE-STATED STATUS." Jul 18 16:13:20 I thought you meant using non-standard (according to the receivers) tapping Jul 18 16:14:45 if i understand correctly, when an SV goes unhealthy, a) it transmits a non-standard code so receivers can't track it, and b) it's set to unhealthy in the health message so receivers don't even bother trying Jul 18 16:15:20 If it's on a non-standard code - not PRN1-32 - then the reciever Jul 18 16:15:26 can't track it Jul 18 16:16:12 right Jul 18 16:16:46 but the health message in the broadcast almanac also says "hey, don't even bother trying to look for prn whatever ... it ain't there" Jul 18 16:17:19 and given enough time (12.5min) every satellite will transmit the health of every other satellite Jul 18 16:21:11 Ah - right. Jul 18 16:21:32 Do you happen to know if the almanacs are synchronised? Jul 18 16:21:37 pretty close Jul 18 16:21:40 Or are they intentionally staggered. Jul 18 16:21:44 that's what the time of issue is fore Jul 18 16:21:52 they try keep them pretty close Jul 18 16:22:00 Pity in a way. Jul 18 16:22:04 but the time of issue is there so you can be sure you have the latest Jul 18 16:22:17 ie, you might be using a 2hr old almanac Jul 18 16:22:32 Otherwise, with 6 sats up, you could have the full almanac in 12.5min/n Jul 18 16:23:02 hi Jul 18 16:23:20 hm. i'll have to go through my logs and see if they stagger the page being transmitted Jul 18 16:23:39 they may all transmit the same order, in which case it would take the full 12.5min Jul 18 16:23:50 Yeah. Jul 18 16:24:36 the data pages have a time of issue, much like dns zones have a serial number ... so you don't have to buffer/decode the whole thing if you've already got the latest (just in case anyone was wondering) Jul 18 16:25:41 ckuethe: I'm currently trying to work out how you can do warm-start in <<6s Jul 18 16:25:54 Hey. Jul 18 16:26:08 Basically if you know where the bit-edges are to within 0.3ms or so, it's easy. If you don't, it gets real fun. Jul 18 16:27:02 mokobot, seen my moko Jul 18 16:27:02 i haven't seen 'my moko', galexande Jul 18 16:27:05 damn Jul 18 16:27:20 mokobot, seen your moko Jul 18 16:27:20 Qwell[]: i haven't seen 'your moko' Jul 18 16:27:39 Anyone have a moko they can ssh into, and do some quick tests with bzip2? Jul 18 16:28:22 ferric: ping Jul 18 16:29:31 your moko is here http://rubyurl.com/EGm Jul 18 16:30:14 SpeedEvil: i have a zaurus... clocked at 91, 208 or 416MHz Jul 18 16:30:17 pong. Jul 18 16:30:40 ferric: quick question, can I pm you? Jul 18 16:30:46 sure Jul 18 16:30:48 ckuethe: I'm looking for someone to time bunzip2s of http://www.mauve.plus.com/out.bz2 and out1.bz2 Jul 18 16:31:10 ckuethe: this is to work out if bzipping chunks of wikipedia is plausible for storage Jul 18 16:31:23 (120K and 1.2M, 10 and 100 wikipedia entries) Jul 18 16:31:40 Text only. Jul 18 16:31:42 k, i'll get right on that Jul 18 16:31:50 Thanks! Jul 18 16:32:32 SpeedEvil: worth checking out standard zlib, for text it's very similar in terms of compression and *way* faster to decompress Jul 18 16:33:05 Comparing over gzip -9 and bzip - there is a big difference. Jul 18 16:33:13 10-20% IIRC Jul 18 16:33:28 I'd put 10% in the 'similar' ballpark Jul 18 16:33:30 lzma Jul 18 16:33:37 20% is getting to be a bit further out Jul 18 16:34:07 But we used to use bzip2 in one of our applications and ditched it for zlib, this was compressing XML so somewhat similar. The space/speed tradeoff was pretty compelling Jul 18 16:35:04 It depends. I was surprised as to how well bzip2 worked. Jul 18 16:35:51 s/worked/compressed/ Jul 18 16:35:51 SpeedEvil meant: It depends. I was surprised as to how well bzip2 compressed. Jul 18 16:35:51 SpeedEvil meant: It depends. I was surprised as to how well bzip2 compressed. Jul 18 16:54:00 SpeedEvil: lzma has better time and compression properties. but yeah, it's amusing how many people try to make XML compressors and quickly come to the realization that they can't beat gzip. Jul 18 16:54:38 It seems so obvious that you can beat gzip. Jul 18 16:55:00 what about bzip2? Jul 18 16:55:35 bzip2 - ckuethe has supplied me with figures - takes 4.5 seconds to decompress a batch of 10 wikipedia articles. Jul 18 16:55:59 Which is 2.?s average time to get to the output. Jul 18 16:56:18 If that's better enough than gzip is another question. Jul 18 16:56:52 surely not. Jul 18 16:57:14 It's 10-15% or so. Jul 18 16:57:20 Perhaps not. Jul 18 16:57:43 i s'pose i can test the same set with lzma and gzip and compress Jul 18 16:57:55 SpeedEvil: What is your exact plan for this? Jul 18 16:58:16 ewanm89_laptop: basically - canned small wikipedia. Jul 18 16:58:27 One part is a few hundred meg 'fixed' archive. Jul 18 16:58:37 ckuethe: lzma > bzip2 > gzip. Jul 18 16:58:49 This has stuff like "1924", "Germany", "Paris" in it. Jul 18 16:58:51 oh. we already have one of those for OLPC. Jul 18 16:58:56 SpeedEvil: So your not grabbing the content live then? Jul 18 16:59:07 cjb: on what kind of processor though ;) Jul 18 16:59:34 But is the data is already there? Jul 18 16:59:35 The other part is a dynamic "Paris Hilton", "Plane Crash In Brazil", "Large Asteroid to hit earth tomorrow" entries. Jul 18 17:00:03 Generated off wikipedia statistics. Jul 18 17:00:08 it's easy enough to shove some time $COMPRESSOR < source >/dev/null commands into a file and try at a few different cpu speeds Jul 18 17:00:08 SpeedEvil: Most browsers already support gzip. Jul 18 17:00:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Mokopedia is the basic idea. Jul 18 17:01:12 mockopedia? :) Jul 18 17:01:24 Consider also every SMS, email, ... also having live-links into your local encyclopedia. Jul 18 17:01:44 you can without a doubt decompress almost any format substantially faster than the fastest internet connection the phone will ever know Jul 18 17:02:15 The wikipedia stats I have _Seem_ to indicate that you can get a _much_ better hit-rate by having a 'current events' pack added to the main archive. Jul 18 17:02:17 Err - no. Jul 18 17:02:24 i can't wait to see what happens when all of these pie-in-the-sky application ideas meet the 2.8" screen :) Jul 18 17:02:31 This is (say) 4-600M on a phone. Jul 18 17:02:41 Stored on the SD. Jul 18 17:02:42 Agreed, but you will have a major limit on the amount of data compared to the whole of wikipedia. Jul 18 17:03:02 Sure. Jul 18 17:03:12 do we have a figure for the size of all of the text on wikipedia (english)? Jul 18 17:03:21 SpeedEvil: I think the OLPC snapshot is 10k articles, 80M of text, 300M of images in those articles. Jul 18 17:03:25 that might be all uncompressed. Jul 18 17:03:31 Statistics _seem_ to say that 80% or so can be gotten in 500-500M. Jul 18 17:03:35 80% of hits Jul 18 17:03:42 heh Jul 18 17:03:45 galexande: LOL. so true. 2.8" of reality. :) Jul 18 17:03:59 It won't always be 2.8" Jul 18 17:04:08 sure but :) Jul 18 17:04:40 basically, speedevil, i'm railing against the two-pane (index on top, details on bottom) approach. it's totally unmanagable on 3.5" palmtops. Jul 18 17:04:41 If we could grab articles "on the way (caching proxy)" and then compress them best we can for the data connection, then add support for local cache and some common articals on the SD card snapshot. Jul 18 17:04:44 cjb: how was that made? Is it selected articles? Jul 18 17:04:47 it'll be comical on 2.8" Jul 18 17:04:58 galexande: I totally pretty much agree with you. Jul 18 17:05:32 ewanm89_laptop: the idea is that you might have 5M of articles downloaded overnight. Jul 18 17:05:36 it's so awesome that this project has so many people who aren't already hardened palmtop users Jul 18 17:05:43 Stripping out images and other multimedia unless specifically asked for. Jul 18 17:05:52 because everyone will react to these limitations differently Jul 18 17:06:06 ewanm89_laptop: So that you have articles for 'breaking news' stories. Jul 18 17:06:44 how is everyone - apologies for popping up at down over the last 48 hours - gremlins in my net connection Jul 18 17:06:47 But what I want to look up on wikipedia may be totally different to what you want to look up. Jul 18 17:06:58 ewanm89_laptop: Oh - I totally agree. Jul 18 17:07:11 ewanm89_laptop: that's where it gets tricky. Jul 18 17:07:19 andylockran: I have gremlins in my net connection all the time. Jul 18 17:07:39 of course we could just hand out unlimited gprs plans for al, with puppies and ribbons, and use tcp/ip to ask wikipedia.org to provide the info Jul 18 17:07:47 SpeedEvil: So proxy and local caches, with most common articles prestored? Jul 18 17:08:15 ewanm89_laptop: Basic idea - mine at least - is: 500M (ish) of core articles. Jul 18 17:08:36 ewanm89_laptop: 100M or so pack of 'recent events' articles. Jul 18 17:08:56 Which gets updated daily or better, in small update packs. Jul 18 17:09:05 The proxy strips multimedia and compresses the artical then caches them, then a local cache on the phone itself too. Jul 18 17:09:09 So you basically plug it into a dock, and it auto-updates. Jul 18 17:09:30 Hmm. Jul 18 17:09:42 You're talking about an OM specific proxy. Jul 18 17:09:49 Hadn't thought of that. Jul 18 17:10:12 Was assuming it was driven from wikipedia stats. Jul 18 17:10:38 With the packs distributed by P2P or something. Jul 18 17:11:14 google has a proxy that strips down webpages for mobile devices Jul 18 17:11:35 Then you can use the proxy stats to see what is best for nextday. Jul 18 17:11:41 yeah we're not too far off from wap here Jul 18 17:12:03 galexande: Oh - I hadn't noticed the recent image on that page. Gotta love that font on a 2.8" device. Jul 18 17:12:20 I know, as opera have a simmilar thing for there mobile browsers. Jul 18 17:12:31 it'll be awesome Jul 18 17:12:41 i bet a lot of the younger geekks will just live with tiny tiny fonts :) Jul 18 17:12:57 Major data saver (for my payasyougo extreme data rates). Jul 18 17:14:06 enh, I gave in and bought unlimited data when I starrted reading ebooks on my cellphone Jul 18 17:14:32 ebooks are like the easiest to just cache though :) Jul 18 17:14:38 SpeedEvil: compressing all the data into one single file is not a good idea. Usually you just want tiny parts data at a time. Jul 18 17:14:43 because you know once you start reading the beginning, you'll want the end sooner or later Jul 18 17:14:46 between that and google maps I pull at least 10MB/mo of data to my cellphone Jul 18 17:14:55 ah google maps Jul 18 17:15:10 if i get unlimited, i intend to really use it. Jul 18 17:15:34 Kensan: I was basically saying small numbers of files - say 10 Jul 18 17:15:47 Kensan: as this trades off compression for storage space Jul 18 17:15:54 Anyone using USB networking with QEMU? Jul 18 17:16:28 SpeedEvil: I don't know much about compression algorithms but there must be a better solution. Jul 18 17:16:46 how long does makemokofile-devel take? Jul 18 17:16:58 SpeedEvil: something along the lines of "indexed compression". Jul 18 17:17:11 how big is the jffs2 blocksize? Jul 18 17:17:15 ferric: Depends on hardware. Jul 18 17:17:19 Anyone else in London going to Google's London OSJam tomorrow evening, http://osjam.truemesh.com/ ? Jul 18 17:17:22 there are filesystems that are basically as efficient as tar for small files.. Jul 18 17:17:30 Stephmw: I wish. Jul 18 17:18:02 SpeedEvil: If you keep the data in html one could reuse webkit for the viewer part. Jul 18 17:18:12 Kensan: Perhaps. Jul 18 17:18:18 ewanm89_laptop: butbut, aren't you going to fly into the UK for the free pizza? Jul 18 17:18:27 i'm really scared webkit will be perceptibly slow Jul 18 17:18:27 Kensan: I'm more at the 'rough calculations' thing at the moemnt. Jul 18 17:18:37 I seem to be having a problem getting QEMU and the desktop communicating. When I enter "usb_add gadget:1" in the QEMU monitor, I get a bunch of "dummy_udc dummy_udc: dequeued req ef6fdf40 from ep-c, len 4096, buf xxxx" in the dmesg log Jul 18 17:18:39 Stephmw: I'm in the UK. Jul 18 17:18:45 i just used lynx after a bunch of firefox usage, it was shocking Jul 18 17:18:58 SpeedEvil: yeah, just throwing around my two cents - feel free to disregard *hehe* Jul 18 17:20:12 SpeedEvil: though it might be worthwhile to turn to the mailinglist for suggestions about compression algos Jul 18 17:20:52 Kensan: no real point. Jul 18 17:21:17 Bzip2 is pretty much more or less adequate - or even gzip is only a few percent worse. Jul 18 17:21:45 The more interesting problem is selection of data. Jul 18 17:21:54 And how to select that data. Jul 18 17:21:58 SpeedEvil: somebody has to have some history in that field and maybe could provide some insights. Jul 18 17:23:12 Indeed. Jul 18 17:25:51 wow. the wish list is mindboggling. Jul 18 17:26:10 ferric "Wish List" on the wiki Jul 18 17:26:11 ? Jul 18 17:26:13 yes Jul 18 17:26:30 ferric: At least it's now sorted into some semblance of order (boy was that fun). Jul 18 17:26:32 SpeedEvil: what databases run on openmoko? Jul 18 17:26:32 the possibilities with an open phone are endless. Jul 18 17:26:47 jadams: none. they all crawl Jul 18 17:27:07 jadams: basically whatever you want. Consider a P100 laptop, and you won't be far off. Jul 18 17:27:08 in practise i've been able to run sleepycat db, sqlite and mysql on a zaurus... Jul 18 17:27:40 even sqlite crawls? Jul 18 17:27:42 SpeedEvil: I was just thinking of it in terms of your 'selection of data' problem Jul 18 17:27:45 re: wp Jul 18 17:27:49 Kensan: i wonder, given that the wikipedia articles are going to have largely similar distributions of chars, and that most compression algs are adaptive... Jul 18 17:28:32 cjb: I've been doing some preliminary tests on sorting wikipedia articles for best compression. Jul 18 17:28:37 what if, before compression, one were to prepend some sort of header to train the compressor, when generating each compresed file. Jul 18 17:28:42 Inconclusinve so far. Jul 18 17:28:45 SpeedEvil: why not just write up a Lucene indexer than unzips, indexes, subindexes a zip file, and merges the subindex up to match for the zip file as well? Jul 18 17:28:53 oh, sorting for compression Jul 18 17:28:55 and hence get compressed files which all begin with the same 1k or so of data Jul 18 17:29:30 It's possible that articles about similar topics may compress better together. Jul 18 17:29:31 so, lop off the 1k, store that separately, tack it back on before decompression Jul 18 17:29:57 Or start with a decompressor in a forced state. Jul 18 17:30:23 That it's already decompressed 100K or whatever. Jul 18 17:30:30 that'd be a better time-optimisation, possibly, depending how big a data structure it builds. Jul 18 17:30:35 cat TDMA CDMA | bzip2 -c | wc -c 18586 Jul 18 17:30:39 (bzip2 -c TDMA;bzip2 -c CDMA) | wc -c 21465 Jul 18 17:30:54 SpeedEvil: this has probably all been done before; i'm just idly musing. Jul 18 17:30:57 (TDMA and CDMA are two wikipedia articles that use similar dictionaries) Jul 18 17:31:02 In practice. Jul 18 17:31:17 Selection algorithm is _way_ more important than compression. Jul 18 17:31:41 so this means that combining more than one article into a file is valuable just in terms of training the compressor Jul 18 17:31:42 You could easily 'need' double the space with a bad selection alg. Jul 18 17:31:53 right, so long as you have some good mechanism for figuring out where to find your document. Jul 18 17:32:09 but yeah, you make a very valid point. Jul 18 17:32:30 SpeedEvil: non-technical article but still interesting: http://www.cnet.com.au/mobilephones/phones/0,239025953,339271149,00.htm Might be worth examining how they are doing it... Jul 18 17:32:44 speed, what you need is access to the matrix from which they calculate "customers who bought xyz also bought abc" Jul 18 17:32:55 except that wikipedia doesn't keep that matrix :) Jul 18 17:33:19 because you could walk links through that matrix and get a whole forest from a listening habit, like pandora, and that would at least be a fun algorithm :) Jul 18 17:33:29 (reading habit) Jul 18 17:33:38 SpeedEvil: one might also consider that users might refer from one article to another similarly-themed one - which is a big win if you've already decompressed both. Jul 18 17:33:54 galexande: But you could build such a matrix if you set up a wikipedia proxy. Jul 18 17:34:07 ewan, sure but it wouldn't be 100% trivial :) Jul 18 17:34:20 mostly in terms of dealing with the load if we actually get any number of people to use our proxy and contribute to our statistics. Jul 18 17:34:42 i wonder if imdb already talks WAP Jul 18 17:34:46 Kensan: storing and searching all of wikipedia is trivial. As is updating it. Selecting subsets is hard. Jul 18 17:35:09 well you do have enough information to do any algorithhm google can Jul 18 17:35:27 from the robot, i mean, not using their url redirecter feedback Jul 18 17:35:47 galexande: But if we do it as I said, data (for openmoko users, our audience) will be collected and therefore the articles will better as time goes on. Jul 18 17:36:05 Good evening. Jul 18 17:36:14 But you're going to need to run off wikipedia stats first. Jul 18 17:36:14 ewan yeah but it takes a long time to get up to speed that way, we won't even know what heuristic is best until we've got a thousand users Jul 18 17:36:26 At least till we get a hundred thousand users or so. Jul 18 17:36:31 heh Jul 18 17:37:28 any word on reasons D.A.V.E. (BT/WiFi hard drive) wouldn't work on the Neo? Jul 18 17:37:29 Yes, so we need to get the proxy running as soon as possible. Jul 18 17:37:44 jadams: if it's accessible by linux, it should. Jul 18 17:37:53 SpeedEvil: then screw compression :) Jul 18 17:37:58 I'm carrying that in my pocket constantly Jul 18 17:38:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/fr]] [[Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Wish_List]] [[User:Minime/sketch]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Berlin]] [[Current_events]] [[User:Krzysiekbielicki]] [[Community_Based_Traffic_Information]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Warsaw]] and other changes Jul 18 17:38:35 jadams, any BT hard drive will eventually be hackable to work with neo Jul 18 17:38:39 jadams: But not all of us are. Jul 18 17:38:42 so long as it's willing to degrade to BT 2.0 slow data rate or whatever Jul 18 17:38:58 hm. lzma may be a bad idea Jul 18 17:39:09 my 64M zaurus is swapping.... in console mode Jul 18 17:39:12 hahaha Jul 18 17:39:21 i can't believe you allocated swap space :) Jul 18 17:39:22 lol Jul 18 17:39:24 Oof. Yeah. lzma is ... Oy. Jul 18 17:39:28 SpeedEvil: I was more hinting at their compression and storage scheme. Jul 18 17:41:02 it's too bad it doesn't take SD, we could get 8GB Jul 18 17:41:05 Kensan: compression is the easy part. And the easy part to replace. Selection algorithm is really hard. Jul 18 17:41:23 8G micro-SD is reportedly sampling. Jul 18 17:42:17 yeah i just found 4gb Jul 18 17:42:51 tell me jffs isn't 32-bit limited :) Jul 18 17:42:55 I think a few things on the wish list should be rethought. Jul 18 17:43:09 Which things? Jul 18 17:43:23 ewanm89_laptop: It's a wiki! Jul 18 17:43:47 And what things. Jul 18 17:43:56 Yeah, I could remove them, flashlight (there's one in the stylus). Jul 18 17:44:17 I'm unlikely to be carrying the stock stylus. Jul 18 17:44:42 The guidelines I've been following for removing stuff are: Jul 18 17:44:55 A) Clearly insane - V12/teleporter Jul 18 17:45:04 i feel strongly that the neo should have a flashlight, actually :) Jul 18 17:45:09 Should make a "Blue Sky" page Jul 18 17:45:15 B) technically impractical - FPGA (moved to wishlist:unlikely) Jul 18 17:45:16 And move the less plausible there. Jul 18 17:45:16 teleport would be nice though. Jul 18 17:45:17 every rechargable device that is carried everywhere should have a flashlight Jul 18 17:45:30 Let people's creativity flow freely, but edit the wishlist to be more specific. Jul 18 17:45:46 C) Implemented Jul 18 17:45:54 D) Has its own application page Jul 18 17:46:08 i',m trying to figure out who we talk to at openmoko about developing a more realistic framework for integrating the core phone/pim apps Jul 18 17:46:22 The flashlight on "Wish List" involves turning the screen all-white Jul 18 17:46:38 Which is not actually insane. Jul 18 17:46:54 Hah. I want a button for that. I use my cellphone as a light constantly. Jul 18 17:47:12 I want a nice 1W 100lm LED. Jul 18 17:47:13 And preferably triggerable without looking at it first, so my eyes stay adjusted for dark. Jul 18 17:47:18 that's a pretty marginal flashlight, though, a single white led is so nice Jul 18 17:47:32 Cree have just made one orderable. Jul 18 17:47:33 i have a stack of white ultrabrights so maybe i'll just solder one on :) Jul 18 17:47:43 Hee. Jul 18 17:47:49 As bright as 8-10W of 'normal' bulb. Jul 18 17:48:04 hahaha speed those things are insane Jul 18 17:48:13 that much light coming from a point source is terrifying inmy experience Jul 18 17:48:17 Indeed. Jul 18 17:49:15 My current keychain light: https://www.fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_69_49&products_id=111&osCsid=4e6ee07261a1050c1117bea473b837fa works well. Jul 18 17:51:58 http://pastebin.ca/624990 <--- ls -l of the compression tests Jul 18 17:52:41 Are there any timings of those? Jul 18 17:52:43 Have you seen the latest emails? The Neos have arrived in FIC US Jul 18 17:52:52 ckuethe: what are you testing? Jul 18 17:52:54 http://pastebin.ca/624993 <--- timings of compression tests Jul 18 17:52:56 Our Neos have FINALLY arrived at FIC America headquarters.  We are now ready to ship.Thanks to FICA for the confirmation pictures: Jul 18 17:52:57 http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/NeoArrived.mp4 Jul 18 17:53:00 ah Jul 18 17:53:12 lzmadec is *$@#^@*#&^$ fast!!!! Jul 18 17:53:23 jgm: yay! :) Jul 18 17:53:30 * Aria cheers! Jul 18 17:53:32 should only be a day or two before the first ones then are in the hands of the new devs. Jul 18 17:53:46 so we take the pain on compression ... use some beefy x86 or amd64 machine to compress the databases Jul 18 17:53:50 Given nobodies had CCs charged yet... Jul 18 17:54:09 looking at wishlist is making me despair to contribute anything useful to openmoko Jul 18 17:54:17 my ideas are so divergent Jul 18 17:54:39 galex: welcome to open source. forget everyone else, do what you want. ;) Jul 18 17:55:13 if you wanted to write road-mapped phone software you'd go work for motorola or nokia Jul 18 17:55:28 personally, i'm going to try to reproduce the interface of my n770 on the neo using only opensource software, and use the neo and 770 together to commit street maps to openstreet. ;) Jul 18 17:55:43 Nice. Jul 18 17:57:52 Check [[Openstreetmap]] on the wiki Jul 18 17:58:12 galexande: What do you want todo? Jul 18 17:58:53 juri_: ooh, yet another OSMer? Jul 18 18:00:23 I would contribute to OSM if I had a GPS reciever to use. (I can't even order a neo though). Jul 18 18:00:31 :( Jul 18 18:00:42 ewanm89_laptop: why not? Jul 18 18:01:09 ewan, i want it to be as simple and braindead as possible Jul 18 18:01:18 it should have every feature that the motorola v66 has, and none that it doesn't, for the dialer Jul 18 18:01:18 ewanm89_laptop: there's probably OSMers near you if you're in the uk, and a lot of them have spare GPSes. Jul 18 18:01:18 SpeedEvil: No Credit Card, Bank account has no direct debit support. Jul 18 18:01:30 im with you galexande. want to configure one for my mum. Jul 18 18:01:39 personally speaking, i have... *counts* 4 GPSes, i think. Jul 18 18:01:51 and every button should be absolutely as huge as possible and every screen should have only a single purpose Jul 18 18:01:58 but that's not really in any of the application mockups i've read about on the wiki. Jul 18 18:02:08 and i'm sure i can't be the only OSMer with that many. Jul 18 18:02:21 i'm excited, this'll be my first GPS :)( Jul 18 18:02:26 When I get my neo (hopes), I'll help contribute. Jul 18 18:03:01 I've used GPS a few times, never had my own reciever though. Jul 18 18:03:06 galexande: Fork you then. Jul 18 18:03:26 cjb_ie: Where are you? Jul 18 18:03:34 i can't imagine waht would be necessary to have this kind of wish list featureset, and also a super-simpel ui Jul 18 18:03:36 ewanm89_laptop: cork, ireland. Jul 18 18:03:37 Personally, I think we need both this sort, and the low-res huge print sort, and ... Jul 18 18:03:39 it would be awesome if that happens, though Jul 18 18:03:50 galexande: most of them are seperate apps. Jul 18 18:03:59 galexande: which could be enabled or not. Jul 18 18:04:19 speed, yeah, but things like. ... people want to associate a *lot* of flags with each entry in the contact list Jul 18 18:04:23 ewanm89_laptop: i'll confess i cheated slightly; the four includes one i ordered while i was at the OSM conference last weekend. Jul 18 18:04:32 i guess we can just hide it all behind "details" buttons like MS does. Jul 18 18:05:02 galexande: we can always fork contacts for advanced users or vice versa if need be Jul 18 18:05:15 removing features from the interface is obviously the easiest direction Jul 18 18:05:18 galexande: or better - the DB supports thousands of flags. Jul 18 18:05:22 so let's make it super awesome first :) Jul 18 18:05:33 The UI can be forked Jul 18 18:05:37 right Jul 18 18:05:40 cjb_ie: So it doesn't include the neo you ordered? Jul 18 18:05:53 yeah it's just if i'm forking the UI, i'll fork it within a month of when i get the phone, before anyone else gets a chance to weigh in on it :) Jul 18 18:06:10 i am not even decided to use gtk (i have my own thin layer over X that i use) Jul 18 18:06:24 so my fork will never merge back cleanly Jul 18 18:06:25 ewanm89_laptop: haven't ordered one... gonna wait for the wifi version Jul 18 18:06:29 cjb_ie: Last time I used GPS was in irelad (wicklow mountains). Jul 18 18:06:46 s/irelad/ireland/ Jul 18 18:06:46 ewanm89_laptop meant: cjb_ie: Last time I used GPS was in ireland (wicklow mountains). Jul 18 18:06:46 ewanm89_laptop meant: cjb_ie: Last time I used GPS was in ireland (wicklow mountains). Jul 18 18:06:51 oh no Jul 18 18:07:14 I was wondering why that didn't happen more :) Jul 18 18:07:16 cjb_ie: I really want a neo-1973 advanced. Jul 18 18:07:57 yay, movie :) Jul 18 18:07:59 s/happen/\/s\/happen\/\s/happen\// Jul 18 18:08:03 ewan, shortage of guitar picks in britain? Jul 18 18:08:06 well, I'm glad it didn't work :) Jul 18 18:08:45 s/glad/\/s\/glad\/s\/glad\// Jul 18 18:08:54 ok I'm done trying to ruin the world Jul 18 18:09:04 galexande: No, I can nick those from the music department at school ;) Jul 18 18:15:16 ewanm89_laptop: Why not get a visa card btw? Jul 18 18:19:01 CM: I haven't got around to it yet, only turned 18 in April (end of). Jul 18 18:19:24 I will be getting a new bank account shortly. Jul 18 18:19:40 :-) Jul 18 18:21:14 I'll order then, but usually my parents will order stuff for me, but they say they have "no comeback" if something goes wrong. Jul 18 18:21:29 If it's international. Jul 18 18:21:34 every teen needs a credit card. thanks to the miracles of compound interest, if you run up a debt at 18 it can pass $1M by the time you retire!! Jul 18 18:21:36 :-) Jul 18 18:22:06 galexande: LOL, I have ne money saftely saved away for months. Jul 18 18:22:12 yay! i now have an x86 copy of qemu, with four ide disks, and 6 scsi disks! :) Jul 18 18:22:16 s/ne/the/ Jul 18 18:22:16 ewanm89_laptop meant: galexande: LOL, I have the money saftely saved away for months. Jul 18 18:22:17 ewanm89_laptop meant: galexande: LOL, I have the money saftely saved away for months. Jul 18 18:22:19 That's what student's credits are for. Jul 18 18:22:26 * juri_ proceeds to do evil. Jul 18 18:22:39 mmazur: As I will be getting soon, hopefully. Jul 18 18:23:02 ewanm89_laptop, a 1M$ debt? Good for you :) Jul 18 18:23:05 * CM is about 180k USD in debt (apartment) Jul 18 18:24:49 £27,000 debt just for going to a Uni in london and getting full amount. (no I'm not this high). Jul 18 18:25:11 where' my cocking email Jul 18 18:26:26 Has anyone placed an order for the neo'73? did you get a confirmation email? Jul 18 18:26:53 we're all waiting for ours Jul 18 18:27:02 neo's that is Jul 18 18:27:09 did you get a confirmation or anything? Jul 18 18:27:28 initial one yes, with a ticket number from rt Jul 18 18:27:34 the website crapped out twice before I was able to complete Jul 18 18:27:41 ahh.. thanks Jul 18 18:27:48 then another one asking if I was a windows user... Jul 18 18:27:58 Have you gotten a "Yes, I really want it" thing? Jul 18 18:28:03 so I should place another order then Jul 18 18:28:12 radiorental: this might be informativ: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1_FAQ Jul 18 18:28:13 no.. didnt get any emails Jul 18 18:28:17 thanks! Jul 18 18:28:40 I mean, asking if I was really sure YES_I_DO email, or NO_I_AM_NOT_STUPID_BUT_THANKS_ANYWAY Jul 18 18:28:59 thanks, read the faq, there's nothing there about ordering issues Jul 18 18:29:11 no, it's pretty useless.. Jul 18 18:29:15 radiorental? Jul 18 18:29:20 I'll place another order, just didnt want to get charged twice Jul 18 18:29:26 if you got through one time Jul 18 18:29:32 then wait 24hours.. Jul 18 18:29:35 radiorental: that faq is full about ordering issues Jul 18 18:29:36 for the email.. Jul 18 18:29:41 I ordered last week Jul 18 18:29:46 ahh ok.. Jul 18 18:29:56 damnn Jul 18 18:29:57 you should have had 2 emails Jul 18 18:30:05 one with a ticket number Jul 18 18:30:07 they only built 1000 right? Jul 18 18:30:20 one asking if you were really sure about buyinh Jul 18 18:30:43 for the moment radiorental, yes... but there's only a 4 week lead time... Jul 18 18:30:53 and 2 of those weeks have nearly passed Jul 18 18:31:01 so, do we know what ticket number consists of the 500 cutoff, or the 1000 cutoff? Jul 18 18:31:05 (since the initial ordering) Jul 18 18:31:37 well according to that faq it doesn;t matter what your order number is Jul 18 18:32:26 My order number is XXXX will I get a phone from the first batch? Jul 18 18:32:26 Unfortunately you cannot deduce this information from your order number, sorry. Jul 18 18:32:53 that kinda suggests that they're as organised as chaos theory Jul 18 18:33:56 nice. ;) Jul 18 18:34:56 so you might be lucky :) Jul 18 18:35:41 did anyone look at my google map satellite shot of FIC america? Jul 18 18:35:53 Thanks Scaredycat, just placed a new order. When I placed my order there was no option for the orange phone and no confirmation page "You will receive a confirmation email within 24 hours.", sorry if the question seemed stupid Jul 18 18:36:04 ScaredyCat, that's good news! I have a xxxx number, which means I'm not bound to be in the n-th batch! Jul 18 18:36:34 no problem radiorental... Jul 18 18:36:48 I'm in helpful mode at the moment :) Jul 18 18:36:52 Is there any info on shipping? I've addressed it to where I currently reside, however that's gonna change in a month. Jul 18 18:37:05 I've assumed they'd make it... Jul 18 18:37:14 No news. Jul 18 18:37:22 It's been said they may charge CCs within the week Jul 18 18:37:53 except for the 2nd note "Before the end of this week you should see a charge on your credit cards." Jul 18 18:38:28 Before the end of this decade you should see a device." Jul 18 18:38:40 Yeah, the devil's in the fine print. Jul 18 18:39:55 can I just say xdebug is 'kin' awesome Jul 18 18:51:07 nice video on the mailing list to drool over :) Jul 18 18:51:17 Give link. Jul 18 18:51:36 http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/NeoArrived.mp4 Jul 18 18:51:36 or Jul 18 18:51:36 http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dsvyr656c78 Jul 18 18:51:38 Hey Guys. Just received my payment confirmation!!! Jul 18 18:51:44 !!! Jul 18 18:51:44 wooot!! Jul 18 18:51:58 * galexande wears out the refresh button on his email Jul 18 18:51:58 \o/ for Jason1 number 1 Jul 18 18:51:59 I am now $300 poorer! Yeah! Jul 18 18:52:12 * xkr47 provides 100 spare keyboards for galexande Jul 18 18:52:22 * galexande looks at CM Jul 18 18:52:40 Jason1, you lucky poor bastard! Jul 18 18:52:41 Fomr email: Jul 18 18:52:41 This means that we will now send out your order ASAP. Jul 18 18:52:41 You will receive another status update once the order has been sent out. Jul 18 18:52:42 " Jul 18 18:53:15 I only have some Penis Enlarge patch mail in my mailbox :P Jul 18 18:53:43 AND the cost was $20 less than expected! Shipping was quoted at about $50, and I got it for $33.20 Jul 18 18:54:07 xkr47: Hell, they might be more useful than the phone... Jul 18 18:54:19 lol Jul 18 18:54:33 we need open PE Jul 18 18:54:57 Dmity_Platonov: I think there are laws against that Jul 18 18:56:15 I think, not in Taiwan. FIC will help us 8) Jul 18 18:56:16 hello! what kind of resolution do you need to run xoo with the neo theme?! Jul 18 18:56:25 anybody else got their payment ocnfirmation email yet? Jul 18 18:56:52 Jason1, send a mail to the mailinglist already :) Jul 18 18:57:07 with a screenshot of the mail :-) Jul 18 18:57:21 I thought mine would be sufficient but it seems that it's nowhere near enough Jul 18 18:58:04 i bet they ran jason1 manually and haven't worked up the confidence to hit go on the batch yet Jul 18 18:58:59 It would have sucked if I got a "Sorry your payment could not be processed" :) Jul 18 18:59:35 Or atatch the mail? Jul 18 18:59:45 put your soul on the scanner and send it to us Jul 18 19:00:09 don't need Jason1's mail, want his phone :P Jul 18 19:00:12 Pics or it didn't happen!!!!one! Jul 18 19:00:23 Kero: LOL Jul 18 19:00:23 two33two Jul 18 19:00:24 iphone or neo? Jul 18 19:00:24 hell, when you get your neo, just attach that to the mail, that we can all have a copy of it :-P Jul 18 19:00:31 Jason1: Is it an advanced? Jul 18 19:00:32 Here is the proof: http://www.chooseopen.com/PaymentReceived.png Jul 18 19:00:47 ewanm89_laptop: Nope, just the base. Jul 18 19:00:53 Kero: LOL Jul 18 19:01:11 So I see :( Jul 18 19:01:14 ah, you're #1820 Jul 18 19:01:27 that explains :) Jul 18 19:01:28 * ewanm89_laptop can't even order one :( Jul 18 19:01:33 summatusmentis, :-) Jul 18 19:01:33 Hehe. I'm 182x too. Jul 18 19:01:42 Holy crap. Jul 18 19:01:48 Jason1, I don't like you already! Jul 18 19:01:54 only 184x here... Jul 18 19:02:09 3900 .... Jul 18 19:02:11 hi Jul 18 19:02:11 It's not fair. Why was he first :( Jul 18 19:02:16 okuethe wins Jul 18 19:02:18 mmazur, because he's better than us Jul 18 19:02:20 * ewanm89_laptop not got a number :( Jul 18 19:02:23 ckuethe* Jul 18 19:02:31 when will pre-orders be registrated for V2? Jul 18 19:02:35 Aria: got mongrel + ruby-cgi on my little server; cgi is a tad slow, but can be sped up Jul 18 19:02:42 #228x :( Jul 18 19:02:48 Kero: Woot Jul 18 19:03:01 how many did get the neo already Jul 18 19:03:16 docdoc: Just the P0 folks. P1 hasn't shipped quite yet. Jul 18 19:03:26 is that 2000 over Jul 18 19:03:30 Aria: http://chmeee.dyndns.org/rambling/blog.srb?author=Kero Jul 18 19:03:40 * xkr47 is 21xx Jul 18 19:04:06 Hehe, Kero. I like you already -- neo and aikido. Jul 18 19:04:10 * xkr47 is happy to be in the queue for openmoko Jul 18 19:04:10 mmazur: I hit refresh a whole bunch and got the first order Jul 18 19:04:50 it's like "I've been waiting over 6 months, and I've got the ticket! goodness will come" Jul 18 19:04:53 how many will be shipped? Jul 18 19:04:55 Aria: think we discussed aikido some ages ago on #ruby-lang :) Jul 18 19:04:55 Jason1: So you're the one that crashed the server. Jul 18 19:05:05 Hehe. I think you're right, Kero Jul 18 19:05:08 Been a while Jul 18 19:05:12 ewanm89_laptop: Maybe, maybe not. :) Jul 18 19:05:30 I still can't order one though. Jul 18 19:05:33 anyone has the neo in its hand already Jul 18 19:05:34 :( Jul 18 19:05:44 cheers Jul 18 19:05:55 docdoc: Nobody should hae the P1 phone yet. Jul 18 19:05:57 docdoc: Only those that developed th very first prototypes. Jul 18 19:06:04 ok Jul 18 19:06:26 so shipment should be started from now... Jul 18 19:06:33 docdoc: Yes. Jul 18 19:06:34 Aria: indeed. and still love both aikido and ruby :) Jul 18 19:06:39 anyone in belgium Jul 18 19:06:45 It is only 12 noon in California right now. I am hoping that *maybe* mine will ship today. Still 5 business hours left in the day Jul 18 19:07:01 ok Jul 18 19:07:11 which is nice Jul 18 19:07:15 is it shipping worldwide? Jul 18 19:07:18 Kero: No rss feed on your post? Jul 18 19:07:25 s/post/blog/ Jul 18 19:07:25 ewanm89_laptop meant: Kero: No rss feed on your blog? Jul 18 19:07:25 ewanm89_laptop meant: Kero: No rss feed on your blog? Jul 18 19:07:25 not mentioned in the faq page Jul 18 19:07:41 docdoc: No, mine is goingto Chicago. I bought overnight shipping... Jul 18 19:08:06 anyone from europe Jul 18 19:08:23 superb project by the way Jul 18 19:08:25 docdoc: I'm in the UK, but I can't even order :( Jul 18 19:08:31 wao, there's even a bot for substitution ! Jul 18 19:08:33 impressive Jul 18 19:08:40 ewan why noy Jul 18 19:08:41 Markinoko: two of 'em Jul 18 19:08:44 why not Jul 18 19:08:46 Markinoko: There are 2. Jul 18 19:08:50 but I can't convince them to send each other into an infinite loop Jul 18 19:09:04 s/2/99999^9/ Jul 18 19:09:05 jadams: I was just thinking that, hehe Jul 18 19:09:11 jadams: And I can kill that. Jul 18 19:09:24 ewanm89_laptop: sure, but it'd have been funn :) Jul 18 19:09:31 ewanm89_laptop: not yet, will have to hook in a library for that Jul 18 19:09:31 who has tested the dialer? is it in perfect condition? Jul 18 19:09:36 anyone tried emulating the openmoko OS with Xnest? Jul 18 19:09:41 which dialer? Jul 18 19:09:54 anything else can not yet be expected from dev software Jul 18 19:09:56 edistar: They have done so in zoo. Jul 18 19:10:12 the howto tells me that it can be done without xoo? Jul 18 19:10:13 hrw dialer in openmoko screen at bottom Jul 18 19:10:13 edistar: I'm doing that right now Jul 18 19:10:23 s/z/x/ Jul 18 19:10:23 ewanm89_laptop meant: edistar: They have done so in xoo. Jul 18 19:10:23 ewanm89_laptop meant: edistar: They have done so in xoo. Jul 18 19:10:25 Markinoko: with xoo? or without? Jul 18 19:10:45 edistar: you can use xoo, or not. qemu is enough if you have a small screen Jul 18 19:11:03 how do I do it in qemu then? Jul 18 19:11:04 xoo is just for beauty Jul 18 19:11:06 hrw: you have read the faq, the dialere is already working on the neo Jul 18 19:11:09 just tell it where the rootfs is? Jul 18 19:11:19 edistar: chroot Jul 18 19:11:25 docdoc: I have 2 neos ;D Jul 18 19:11:26 or maybe not... Jul 18 19:11:29 i have seen it on youtube also Jul 18 19:11:29 Markinoko: and then? Jul 18 19:11:34 hmm, let me check Jul 18 19:11:35 Or let mokomakefile do it for you. Jul 18 19:11:39 ok Jul 18 19:11:49 are they PO Jul 18 19:11:53 or P1 Jul 18 19:11:55 bv3 and bv4 Jul 18 19:12:01 PA Jul 18 19:12:09 P1 BV4 Jul 18 19:12:31 what is the stability of the x11 window Jul 18 19:12:37 hrw: But you were one of the devs chosen to help? Jul 18 19:12:43 yes Jul 18 19:12:46 Markinoko: I just want to try it out quickly ;) and xoo is cut in half.. :( Jul 18 19:12:56 ok Jul 18 19:12:58 edistar: hehe, same here Jul 18 19:13:03 hrw: Lucky ... Jul 18 19:13:29 docdoc: x11 works stable on neo, we have some interesting software for it Jul 18 19:13:39 I use qemu, works very well. Jul 18 19:13:51 hrw: where you from and how long are you testing the neo yet Jul 18 19:13:51 edistar: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Jul 18 19:14:08 hm Jul 18 19:14:25 anyone knows why mokoninja posted a new video on youtube and removed it then? Jul 18 19:14:35 docdoc: Poznań, Poland and I got first neo (phase0 bv3) in March iirc Jul 18 19:14:39 why use a emulator if you can connect via usb networking? Jul 18 19:14:45 how far is usage of dbus on OpenMoko standardized these days? Jul 18 19:14:48 on a linux pc Jul 18 19:15:04 like, which services are hooked into it ? Jul 18 19:15:22 i think libgsmd is like the only thing actually written that might need it Jul 18 19:15:25 wait... wait.. let me get this straight.... Jul 18 19:15:27 Kero: think the plan is for lots of them to hook in to it, but there isn't a lot there yet Jul 18 19:16:07 The contacts/calendar backend is (going to be) eds-dbus Jul 18 19:16:10 the neo's arrived on 17th, and rather than boxing them up, packaging and charging CC's they make a dumb ass video for you tube... Jul 18 19:16:19 ewanm89_laptop: how do you use qemu? Jul 18 19:16:32 ScaredyCat: They chared *my* credit card :) Jul 18 19:16:42 !!!! Jul 18 19:16:43 edistar: the wiki is not enough ? Jul 18 19:16:43 Kero: dialer will be dbus, calendar and contacts are dbus already Jul 18 19:16:47 ScaredyCat: Yup Jul 18 19:16:49 ScaredyCat: hey everyone here was moaning that they wanted to hear an update then you get a full video and you're still not happy? Sheesh Jul 18 19:16:53 ScaredyCat: shut yo mouth, the video took like eight minutes to make I'm sure :) Jul 18 19:16:57 edistar: Use the instructions on the mokomakefile page. Jul 18 19:17:15 complain if they haven't shipped any by tomorrow noon Jul 18 19:17:16 8 minutes... that's 30 neos boxed Jul 18 19:17:27 bugger that... Jul 18 19:17:27 ewanm89_laptop: actually there's even a dedicated page just for qemu Jul 18 19:17:31 ScaredyCat: LOL. Slave driver :) Jul 18 19:17:40 I'm hoping that there will be a lot of dbus hooks, although not sure how they would work in practice as I'm just starting to play with dbus myself Jul 18 19:17:46 Markinoko: I know, mokomakefile automates it though :( Jul 18 19:17:56 s/:(/;)/ Jul 18 19:17:57 Jason1: did you get emial confirmation? Jul 18 19:18:01 ewanm89_laptop: well... yeah :-) Jul 18 19:18:09 ScaredyCat: http://www.chooseopen.com/PaymentReceived.png Jul 18 19:18:18 or have you just been charged for 1000 neos :) Jul 18 19:18:37 Markinoko: I've done it both ways, and I'm developing with it, as I can't even order a neo. Jul 18 19:18:44 jason1, your order#? so we can figure out their rate of billings? :-) Jul 18 19:18:50 he's the first Jul 18 19:19:00 CM: you? Jul 18 19:19:03 idarwin: I am the first order: 1820 Jul 18 19:19:11 He's a luckt bast...d Jul 18 19:19:15 all those questions about email confirmation makes things clear now. we're not enthousiasts. we're fanatics ;-) Jul 18 19:19:16 First reported order. Jul 18 19:19:17 ScaredyCat: CM had an early order number, right? Jul 18 19:19:21 Or was that confirmed? Jul 18 19:19:26 he was 2nd iirc Jul 18 19:19:29 ewanm89_laptop: sry, I'm a little confused... I did the makefile thing, build a rootfs(?) and what can I do with that now? I can't use xoo.. Jul 18 19:19:45 ewanm89_laptop: I'm in the same situation. I need wifi for what I'm working on, so no point in getting a device right now Jul 18 19:19:48 oops, right. Jul 18 19:19:53 edistar: What distro? Jul 18 19:20:22 ewanm89_laptop: ubuntu on a separate pc as my lenny box didn't want to install the openembedded pakets.. Jul 18 19:20:27 Markinoko: Can't you get the networking side emulated with usb networking? Jul 18 19:20:28 C U around Jul 18 19:20:49 ok, eds-dbus for contacts and calendar I knew. dialer seems a good idea; how about gsm(d) ? Jul 18 19:20:55 ScaredyCat: CM is missing all the fun Jul 18 19:21:00 Jason1: shipping no? Jul 18 19:21:14 edistar: Did you use make openmoko-devel-image? Jul 18 19:21:23 what other 'services' are there (applications, daemons) that are typical enough... mmm... Jul 18 19:21:24 tracking code, I mean Jul 18 19:21:24 ScaredyCat: supposed to get another "Shipping Confirmation" email Jul 18 19:21:35 ewanm89_laptop: I could. but I prefer to save some money. I don't mind waiting till october Jul 18 19:21:35 Jason1: roflmao Jul 18 19:21:40 nex month? Jul 18 19:21:41 ewanm89_laptop: yes Jul 18 19:21:50 plenty of ideas on the WishList and ML that could, in principle, use dbus at some daemon-ish level Jul 18 19:21:56 Kero: I'm playing with a SQLite backend for messages (SMS, IM, voice calls/mails) that would be accessible by dbus Jul 18 19:21:57 ScaredyCat: From the email "This means that we will now send out your order ASAP. You will receive another status update once the order has been sent out." Jul 18 19:22:04 Right, do you have GCC 3.x installed? Jul 18 19:22:12 heh - there's a video of the packing instructions for a Neo Advanced: http://people.openmoko.org/jouston/AdvancedKit.AVI Jul 18 19:22:12 ScaredyCat: Probably :( Jul 18 19:22:14 Jason1: 3:30pm is last collection Jul 18 19:22:19 CA time Jul 18 19:22:25 ewanm89_laptop: do I still need that? make openmoko-devel-image worked on the ubuntu.. Jul 18 19:22:26 from the ups site Jul 18 19:22:27 ScaredyCat: For UPS? Jul 18 19:22:31 ya Jul 18 19:22:38 jgm: I'm thinking of making stopwatch as first application. full-screen [5 MIN] on screen and (optional) beeping when done Jul 18 19:22:39 ewanm89_laptop: but I think I have, one moment Jul 18 19:22:43 egg-timer Jul 18 19:22:44 ScaredyCat: They better get to work then. Jul 18 19:22:55 edistar: It's for qemu build (the only part that needs GCC3. Jul 18 19:22:57 Hooks are a big question in my mind. Take the dialer. Say that a user inputs a number to dial, how easy will it be for another application to get in the way and modify the number, change other aspects of the 'phone depending on the number? Jul 18 19:22:58 so that's timer & audio. Jul 18 19:23:00 And how does chaining work? Jul 18 19:23:04 it really needs to ship today for me to get it friday Jul 18 19:23:07 Kero: did you post to the mailing list regarding that? Jul 18 19:23:14 jgm: not yet. Jul 18 19:23:17 ewanm89_laptop: no, I only have gcc 4, do I need gcc 3.x? Jul 18 19:23:25 I've been working on my blog and some things up to yesterday :) Jul 18 19:23:31 ScaredyCat: I got overnight shipping, so if it ships today, I could have it tomorrow. Most likely (knowing FIC), it wont ship today (or this week). Jul 18 19:23:31 * ScaredyCat goes for food... bbl Jul 18 19:23:34 lets see, we had another 182x here right? Aria, any news? :) Jul 18 19:23:36 so today I start thinking "Neo" for real :) Jul 18 19:23:45 edistar: Unfortunatly qemu will only build with 3.x Jul 18 19:23:52 (community or dev ML, btw?) Jul 18 19:24:19 edistar: You can have both installed at once. Jul 18 19:24:35 ewanm89_laptop: okey, isn't just installing qemu via apt-get enough? or do I need a special qemu? Jul 18 19:24:44 Think it was -devel, let me see if I can find it Jul 18 19:25:02 ewanm89_laptop: I installed gcc 3.4 Jul 18 19:26:00 It was a post yesterday on -devel by Rodolphe Otaro, he linked to this image in it: http://rodolphe.ortalo.free.fr/mokochrono0.png Jul 18 19:26:07 Jason1: i have ticket #1834 and didnt get the mail yet.. but hey .. im waiting since the end of 2006 .. so i think i can wait some more days ;) Jul 18 19:26:37 heh i've written thhat program a bunch of times, but not using a gui Jul 18 19:26:40 edistar: It's slightly modified to emulate neo hardware. Jul 18 19:26:53 C7: hehe. Someone specualted that they may have used my order to "test" the system beforethey try to run the whole batch... makes sense to me. Jul 18 19:26:57 jgm: easy enough like that. but the infrastructure layer is an extra req. Jul 18 19:27:03 ewanm89_laptop: will my build stuff work then too or do I need to rebuild? Jul 18 19:27:04 Jason1: ;) Jul 18 19:27:24 ewanm89_laptop: I thought that the modified qemu was only to run arm-compiled binaries? Jul 18 19:27:28 jgm: and I want full screen, to show people (e.g. half a room away, giving a presentation) their time is almost up :) Jul 18 19:27:33 edistar: Do you know how to use enviroment variables to set it for rest of shell session? Jul 18 19:27:46 export? Jul 18 19:27:52 Yep just thinking it may be good to work together on it rather than us end up with two separate chronometers Jul 18 19:27:55 jgm: and for timing, counting up as well as down seems a loical combo :) Jul 18 19:28:04 C7: Soon our endless browser refreshes will pay off when he are the first ones with our Neos. Moohahahahaha Jul 18 19:28:16 Yes, I'm not sure on the specific ones for ubuntu/debian. Jul 18 19:28:20 jgm: lemme start w/ subscribing to -devel then :) Jul 18 19:28:36 edistar: What you've built already will be fine. Jul 18 19:28:58 ewanm89_laptop: okey :) Jul 18 19:29:06 pft. there's a dozen -devel !! Jul 18 19:29:42 edistar: You need it so gcc --version returns 3.x rather than 4.x Jul 18 19:30:14 hey guys.. good news that cards have started to be charged.. bad news that mine hasn't yet :) Jul 18 19:30:21 Jason1: you'll have yours first.. i'm in switzerland ;) Jul 18 19:30:39 half a dozen, only two that seem interesting. OK :) Jul 18 19:31:12 C7: It feels like they are finally starting to make some progress over there. Did you see the video they made of the boxes from China? Jul 18 19:31:18 yeah, kewl Jul 18 19:31:20 :) Jul 18 19:32:00 edistar: $CC and $HOST_CC need to be set to what ever you get from autocomplete gcc... Jul 18 19:32:18 ewanm89_laptop: okey, thanks Jul 18 19:32:21 I'll see if it works ;) Jul 18 19:33:30 make build-qemu flash-qemu-local run-qemu should do it. Jul 18 19:34:36 :) Jul 18 19:34:44 edistar: Works? Jul 18 19:35:00 Jason1: yes i did Jul 18 19:35:02 no, don't have time yet, I'll try in a few hours.. Jul 18 19:36:49 mm, is anyone working on Enlightenment and all its libs for OpenMoko? Jul 18 19:37:18 Not AIUI. Jul 18 19:37:29 You can put any WM you want on it prettymuch. Jul 18 19:37:54 Just remember that it's basically a P100 laptop with a bad graphics card equivalent. Jul 18 19:38:40 yup. and some of those E-libraries claim to be fast without acceleration :) Jul 18 19:39:02 but I have no idea how gtk stacks up to that Jul 18 19:39:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wifidog_Hotspot_Finder]] [[File_transfer]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Vancouver]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] Jul 18 19:43:37 heya Jul 18 19:44:57 I'm a moron. Jul 18 19:45:06 Why? Jul 18 19:45:09 I got a 'please confirm order' email 4 days ago :( Jul 18 19:45:13 heh Jul 18 19:45:37 Damn spamfilters. Jul 18 19:45:47 Dear Valued Customer Jul 18 19:45:49 That's me! Jul 18 19:45:49 Heh. Oops. Jul 18 19:45:55 mmazur: you mean .... damn spammers :D Jul 18 19:45:58 At least you're not delayed for the shupping still Jul 18 19:48:31 Aria, I could hope :) Jul 18 19:53:28 who else has had an email ? Jul 18 19:54:54 * k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back. Jul 18 19:55:51 hello Jul 18 19:56:55 hi Jul 18 19:57:26 hi linux-bastler_ Jul 18 19:57:28 hi Jul 18 19:58:18 . Jul 18 19:59:15 re Jul 18 19:59:28 Jason1: so you got an email, eh? Jul 18 19:59:37 ferric: Yup :) :) :) Jul 18 20:00:17 * ScaredyCat stabs Jason1 and redirects ups Jul 18 20:00:27 Yeah, there is a recent discussion o nthe mailing list about ringtones. Someone posted a link to the SVN repository with a few that someone have been playing with. Jul 18 20:00:27 http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ Jul 18 20:01:01 * ferric is #2713 so no hope. Jul 18 20:02:14 ferric: YOu are under #1000, you should be in the 1st batch Jul 18 20:02:30 You're assuming that most people are responding positively to I_WANT_ONE Jul 18 20:02:49 Jason1: when did you get your email and what was the subject? Jul 18 20:03:36 ferric: One hour ago. See for yourself: http://www.chooseopen.com/PaymentReceived.png Jul 18 20:03:55 I'm RT #1970 but haven't received any communication. Jul 18 20:05:28 Jason1: sweet. :) Jul 18 20:05:49 I'm #1845 and haven't received any yet either, but I'm trying to be patient. :-) Jul 18 20:06:18 shrug. Jul 18 20:06:36 i'm not impatient - there's very little most people will do with the deve preview unless they've already got code written. Jul 18 20:06:57 gtg, I leave the bot running if I can get away with it. Jul 18 20:07:01 hardware ods ferric Jul 18 20:07:04 mods Jul 18 20:07:15 ScaredyCat: to do what? Jul 18 20:07:17 ferric: We can put it around our neck and walk around Walmart :) LOL Jul 18 20:07:23 Jason1: touche Jul 18 20:07:26 mokobot: can I has a openmoko Jul 18 20:07:40 ferric: Some of us have got code, and we can't order the dev preview. Jul 18 20:07:42 you can also use it as a chickmagnet. :) Jul 18 20:08:00 ferric: I hear that this thing will suck them right in. Jul 18 20:08:00 ferric: was the amount accurate? Jul 18 20:08:02 ewanm89_laptop: yes, but those of you are a very small percentage. :) Jul 18 20:08:03 ferric: expansion modules, cases, battery packs etc Jul 18 20:08:20 ferric: :( :( :( Jul 18 20:08:23 ScaredyCat: not exciting. Jul 18 20:08:39 I didn't say exciting Jul 18 20:08:40 ewanm89_laptop: if it was upto me, i'd give anyone that wrote any code and published it a free neo :) Jul 18 20:08:47 ScaredyCat: true that. Jul 18 20:08:55 SpeedEvil: amount? Jul 18 20:09:22 mokobot: can I has a openmoko Jul 18 20:09:22 rumour has it, can i has a openmoko is No Jul 18 20:09:30 ferric: the PNG says tha the amount may not be the same as it was on the wabshop. Jul 18 20:09:34 mokobot: can I has a openmoko Jul 18 20:09:35 [can i has a openmoko] No Jul 18 20:09:40 mokobot: can I has a openmoko? Jul 18 20:09:40 somebody said can i has a openmoko was No Jul 18 20:09:41 (script) planet: Marcin "hrw" Juszkiewicz: GUADEC - last day http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/07/18/guadec-last-day/ Marcin "hrw" Juszkiewicz: GUADEC continued http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/07/18/guadec-continued/ Marcin "hrw" Juszkiewicz: GUADEC: preparations to travel http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/07/12/guadec-preparations-to-travel/ Marcin "hrw" Juszkiewicz: Neo1973 now available! http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/07/09/neo1973-now-available/ Jul 18 20:09:48 mokobot: are you slwo or what Jul 18 20:09:59 SpeedEvil: Thats my email... The amount was $20 LESS than projected Jul 18 20:10:13 ScaredyCat: Um, seems to have got lost in my problem earlier. Jul 18 20:10:24 I remade the factfile. Jul 18 20:10:25 mokobot: forget can i has a openmoko Jul 18 20:10:26 i forgot can i has a openmoko, ScaredyCat Jul 18 20:10:31 SpeedEvil: it looks like it's lesser Jul 18 20:10:38 yeah, the overnight shipping is $30 Jul 18 20:10:49 mokobot: can I has a openmoko is No Jul 18 20:10:49 ScaredyCat: okay Jul 18 20:10:55 mokobot: can I has a openmoko Jul 18 20:10:56 No Jul 18 20:11:04 Ah, thanks Jul 18 20:11:16 Night guys. Jul 18 20:11:20 night Jul 18 20:11:48 is openmoko ported to other phones then neo1973? espacially htc phoneds? Jul 18 20:11:55 The answer to almost all software questions is 'no'. There is very little working software - the dialer just about works. Jul 18 20:12:02 SiO2: treo 650 - somewhat Jul 18 20:12:11 When that's working - porting will be worked on Jul 18 20:12:19 SiO2: someone was running it on another device. A link is in the wiki. DOnt remember the specifics Jul 18 20:12:35 ferric: where are you? Jul 18 20:12:40 SpeedEvil: new york Jul 18 20:12:46 Ah. Jul 18 20:12:58 in other news, makemokofile has been running in my virtual machine since last night. Jul 18 20:13:03 i mean: make openmoko-devel Jul 18 20:13:16 SpeedEvil: and you? Jul 18 20:13:17 after tomorow, i can get a new phone for my contract, and i will choose one with linux (and moko too???) because, the gui design is nice of moko :) Jul 18 20:13:22 SiO2: http://blog.mikeasoft.com/2007/07/01/openmoko-on-a-treo-650/ Jul 18 20:13:23 * SpeedEvil is in scotland. Jul 18 20:13:28 oh wow. Jul 18 20:13:44 SiO2: get the neo, then Jul 18 20:13:47 no other phone is worthy Jul 18 20:13:50 SiO2: The software is _maybe_ going to be ready sometime in october. Jul 18 20:13:55 Jason1, this with treo, i know. but i can't get an treo for cheap Jul 18 20:14:03 Which is highly optimistic. Jul 18 20:14:11 SpeedEvil: You should make a software factfile. Jul 18 20:14:25 so how are things going Jul 18 20:14:29 is anybody of you familiar with emulating the Neo with Qemu? Jul 18 20:14:38 Night then. Jul 18 20:15:21 neo is fine, maybe i'll get one ( from the seriesmodell), but i'll try it out with an other phone ;) Jul 18 20:15:42 SiO2: Have you run it in the emulator yet? Jul 18 20:15:58 linux-bastler_: barely Jul 18 20:16:04 Jason1, yes, but veeeerrrry slllooow Jul 18 20:16:21 SiO2: Might be that way on the phone too... :) Jul 18 20:17:28 :( Jul 18 20:17:29 I have the Neo working in Qemu fine but if I want to have the network device I get the following error: Warning: could not find gadgetfs Jul 18 20:18:20 I have all done like it's described in the wiki Jul 18 20:18:35 Jason1: cycle Jul 18 20:19:12 * ferric would like to run qemu too. Jul 18 20:19:38 Jason1: no its way faster than on my pc .. ok its still not as fast as it coud be Jul 18 20:20:19 C7: Excellent. Cant wait to feel the Neo between my fingers Jul 18 20:23:45 Have anybody in the Channel Qemu working with the emulatet NIC? Jul 18 20:29:00 ScaredyCat, galexande: No mail yet :-( Jul 18 20:29:22 :( Jul 18 20:30:40 CM: me too.. have to get some sleep now Jul 18 20:30:58 night everyone .. and happy "line sitting" ;) Jul 18 20:31:05 night Jul 18 20:36:45 C7: line sitting is for iLosers Jul 18 20:37:19 repetedly asking "has it shipped yet" in irc channels is for open sourcers. :) Jul 18 20:37:32 so.. uhm.. has it? :) Jul 18 20:37:32 has it shipped yet? Jul 18 20:38:00 has what? Jul 18 20:38:03 rwhitby, what is the setup-openmoko-developer target of mokomakefile for? Jul 18 20:38:52 ScaredyCat: Do you like performing bot abuse/ Jul 18 20:38:57 yes Jul 18 20:39:07 s/\//\?/ Jul 18 20:39:20 but you've disabled the interesting stuff Jul 18 20:39:39 ScaredyCat: Like what? Jul 18 20:39:41 "When will it be here?" "When it's ready." Jul 18 20:39:58 when people join Jul 18 20:40:24 hello.. Jul 18 20:40:25 is blah Jul 18 20:40:26 Um, Probably disabled by default, I'll look into it. Jul 18 20:40:36 ~> ./configure --target-list=arm-softmmu Jul 18 20:40:37 WARNING: "gcc" looks like gcc 4.x Jul 18 20:40:41 Jason1?? Jul 18 20:40:52 mokobot: Jason1 Jul 18 20:40:52 * mokobot clubs Jason1 and steals his neo Jul 18 20:40:52 :\ i can compile with cc 4.x? Jul 18 20:40:55 ScaredyCat: Whats up? Jul 18 20:40:57 not sure on that one, remember I only loaded in a basic config. Jul 18 20:41:28 Jason1: He's messing with the bot. Jul 18 20:42:52 ScaredyCat: I would change settings if you remind me tommorrow, but too much HD thrashing and parents would probably realise and I would have to turn off. Jul 18 20:43:05 :) Jul 18 20:43:07 k Jul 18 20:43:11 Shouldn't do that though. Jul 18 20:43:17 Night Jul 18 20:43:23 night Jul 18 20:43:42 And make as many factfiles as you need. Jul 18 20:45:29 many people got their cards charged? Jul 18 20:45:49 1, afaik Jul 18 20:50:25 i sell runescape stat editor add my msn mas_mas91@hotmail.com if you want it. Jul 18 20:50:56 !op Jul 18 20:51:05 shit, wrong window Jul 18 20:51:09 ^^ Jul 18 20:51:16 farewell, spammer. Jul 18 20:51:58 nn Jul 18 20:52:20 who are the ops in this channel anyway? Jul 18 20:53:28 Don't think there's any op besides ChanServ Jul 18 20:53:36 /msg chanserv access #openmoko Jul 18 20:53:45 who needs ops :) Jul 18 20:53:54 /msg chanserv access #openmoko list rather Jul 18 20:54:02 micke y only Jul 18 20:54:42 good night.. naybe tomorrow a few more people have received their order conf.. Jul 18 20:54:52 hehe Jul 18 20:54:53 good Jul 18 20:54:57 more mokos Jul 18 20:55:00 in the world Jul 18 20:55:14 xkr47: you received one already? Jul 18 20:55:24 no - he didn't. Jul 18 20:55:39 not last time I checked Jul 18 20:55:55 heh SpeedEvil Jul 18 20:57:41 so a few people have received order conf already? Jul 18 20:57:49 1 Jul 18 20:57:52 haha Jul 18 20:58:12 was he the first ticket number? Jul 18 20:58:21 ya Jul 18 20:58:29 that we know of Jul 18 20:58:38 Roh said he was first Jul 18 20:58:51 k, so ya Jul 18 20:58:57 * CM wants a mail too :-P Jul 18 20:59:53 * ScaredyCat forwards some viagra ones to CM Jul 18 21:00:57 * CM replies with V1Cod1N and a Great bissness prolposal from Dr Mugabe Jul 18 21:01:42 anyone else get email other than that faker Jason? Jul 18 21:01:48 * ScaredyCat offers CM a percentage of the $150 million in a US back in return for helping access it Jul 18 21:02:28 not me Jul 18 21:06:40 ferric: I heard that Jul 18 21:07:09 hahaha Jul 18 21:07:12 (sorry!) Jul 18 21:07:23 hehe Jul 18 21:08:13 Jason1: i heard you hijacked the phones :P Jul 18 21:08:15 yeah, must be a fake.... Jul 18 21:08:40 or Jason1 is paying for all of them.. Jul 18 21:08:43 IR3: hehe Jul 18 21:09:24 ScaredyCat: I owrked out a deal with FIC to "test" their delivery pipline. They send me the first phone so that I can make sure everything goes smoothly for the rest of you... Jul 18 21:09:38 j/k Jul 18 21:10:03 * ScaredyCat works out deal with the mafia to assist in drp testing Jason1 Jul 18 21:10:32 * juri_ buys an advanced "testing". Jul 18 21:10:52 * ScaredyCat looks for a powersocket Jul 18 21:10:54 I should call UPS and request a package pickup at the FIC-California address Jul 18 21:11:00 lol Jul 18 21:11:26 * charkins checks prices on flight from WI to CA for tomorrow Jul 18 21:12:35 night Jul 18 21:13:00 charkins: Good idea. Now that they charged my card, maybe I can request a local pickup. Jul 18 21:13:34 charkins: What part of WI? Im in Chicago Jul 18 21:13:56 I'm in Madison. I'm actually living sorta half time (3-4 days/week) in Chicago. Jul 18 21:14:07 Through the end of the year. Jul 18 21:14:15 cool Jul 18 21:19:08 wow - maybe you can do a chicago openmoko dev meetup Jul 18 21:24:08 * don-o adds Portland Or to local moko groups Jul 18 21:38:06 Can the wiki do imagemaps? Jul 18 21:38:20 I doubt it. Jul 18 21:39:01 (script) planet: Jouston Huang: Finally, Neo 1973 is on the way to you http://jouston.no-ip.com/archives/000227.html Jul 18 21:39:01 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Portland]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Montreal]] [[Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] Jul 18 21:39:31 he elrond Jul 18 21:39:51 Hi woglinde Jul 18 21:44:27 There. Jul 18 21:44:34 hm Jul 18 21:44:35 *g* Jul 18 21:45:40 whats the change..? Jul 18 21:46:00 Basically that the phones are in the states, and that they may ship before the end of the week. Jul 18 21:46:27 wow.... that http://jouston.no-ip.com/archives/000227.html Jul 18 21:46:34 is uncomprehensible, almost Jul 18 21:47:58 * SpeedEvil tunes ferric. Jul 18 21:48:09 * ferric is tuned. Jul 18 21:48:23 So what I'm getting from the Developer_preview page is that there'll be hardware upgrades from the developer preview as well as software? So anyone who buys one now is likely to have to (or want to) buy another later anyway? Jul 18 21:49:14 Twey: there are hardware changes. Jul 18 21:49:21 Probably. Jul 18 21:49:28 * Twey nods. Jul 18 21:49:43 faq? Jul 18 21:49:43 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 18 21:53:13 Heh, it's kind of awe-inspiring to realise that a 'phone nowdays has as much processing power as an average computer a decade or so ago Jul 18 21:53:20 hi, will umts functionality be included in further neo revisions? Jul 18 21:53:22 * Twey scratches his head. Jul 18 21:53:34 XXLT: faq? Jul 18 21:53:37 faq? Jul 18 21:53:38 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) Jul 18 21:53:38 Actually it doesn't feel like a decade at all, where's the time gone? Jul 18 21:54:09 XXLT: localised phones will turn up after the P2 sells in bunches. Jul 18 21:59:27 I must admit that one super cool thing openmoko will enable is for me to be able to use it as a wifi SIP handset talking to the asterisk server at work Jul 18 21:59:38 s/openmoko/GTA02 Jul 18 22:00:54 heh. bring on the asterisk questions. :P Jul 18 22:03:18 What would be _really_ cool would be if the GSM-random VOIP - call handover could be done. Jul 18 22:03:36 And back Jul 18 22:04:22 SpeedEvil: you mean Unlicensed Mobile Access? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#Unlicensed_Mobile_Access_.28UMA.29 Jul 18 22:04:25 SpeedEvil, that would need support from the GSM provider Jul 18 22:04:46 Shoragan: pretty much. Jul 18 22:05:16 although you could probably achieve something similar be routing all calls to your mobile through an asterisk server first Jul 18 22:05:34 which would negate the cost advantage ;) Jul 18 22:05:35 Not quite. Jul 18 22:05:50 I want if I walk past an AP I have rights to, it to 'roam' onto there. Jul 18 22:06:00 yes Jul 18 22:06:18 for that you need to have full control of the connection Jul 18 22:06:52 which you can have by using the number of you asterisk box as your phone number Jul 18 22:07:18 if it can't reach you via VoIP it will connect to your mobile via GSM Jul 18 22:07:51 gsm->voip handover could be done pretty seamless Jul 18 22:08:16 but for the other way round, it's too late when you lose WiFi ;) Jul 18 22:08:23 shoragan: In your dreams :) Jul 18 22:09:04 use the gps. if the phone starts walking, switch to gsm before it is too late :) Jul 18 22:09:11 lol Jul 18 22:09:14 good idea Jul 18 22:09:15 LetoTo: brilliant Jul 18 22:09:33 gsm call setup takes about 4-6 seconds Jul 18 22:09:39 well the gps needs to know if the phone is going to lose wifi Jul 18 22:09:40 that should be enough Jul 18 22:10:16 do you need the poll the gps? Or can it just send data when it changes? Jul 18 22:10:21 wouldn't it be better to use the wifi signal strength to determine when to switch back to GSM? Jul 18 22:11:05 Vegar, theoretically yes, but then it is often too late, the wifi strength is not very accurate Jul 18 22:11:13 LetoTo - You need to poll. Jul 18 22:11:17 right Jul 18 22:11:24 LetoTo - It's quite dumb. Jul 18 22:11:53 but i have a voice flatrate for gsm anyway, so that handover is not that useful Jul 18 22:11:59 it's probably a combination of wifi signal strength and gps data Jul 18 22:12:10 shoragan: what country? Jul 18 22:12:16 germany Jul 18 22:12:25 you have flate gsm voice? Jul 18 22:12:33 not gprs? Jul 18 22:12:43 to same network and landline Jul 18 22:12:50 and umts flat on a different sim Jul 18 22:13:57 so i can call my asterisk box from anywhere and use my SIP account to call anywhere in the world ;) Jul 18 22:14:28 oh Jul 18 22:14:30 hehe Jul 18 22:14:48 yeah, i need to setup my pbx to do callback Jul 18 22:14:54 * LetoTo only has free incoming calls. Jul 18 22:15:09 then out via a sip provider at rock bottom prices Jul 18 22:16:03 it sucks that you can't buy tmobile phones or the router online yet. Jul 18 22:17:19 i've build an openmoko live-cd which you can use to run openmoko in qemu without having to install anything Jul 18 22:17:21 http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/~jluebbe/om-live/ Jul 18 22:17:42 perhaps it is useful to someone ;) Jul 18 22:18:04 Shoragan - qemu-neo1973-arm? or qemu-ia32? Jul 18 22:18:45 qemu-neo1973-arm Jul 18 22:19:03 it's simple a precompiled mokomakefile Jul 18 22:19:13 ahh :) Jul 18 22:19:20 Shoragan: ack! where were you yesterday - i'm building mokomakefile from scratch on my ubuntu VM and it's taking FOREVER! Jul 18 22:19:43 its using the downloaded images though Jul 18 22:19:58 Shoragan - You mean from buildhost? Jul 18 22:20:03 yes Jul 18 22:20:16 Which are two weeks old. ;-) Jul 18 22:20:32 but you can simply boot from cd and click "run qemu" Jul 18 22:20:45 Elrond, they havn't changed that much anyway Jul 18 22:21:31 Shoragan - Well, some smallish bugs here and there ;) Jul 18 22:21:36 i'll have to try RM_WORK again Jul 18 22:21:51 then a full environment may be possible Jul 18 22:22:12 hi Jul 18 22:22:16 hi Jul 18 22:23:24 so, um.. is there a 'where are the phones' page on the wiki? Jul 18 22:23:49 hm? Jul 18 22:23:56 Shoragan: what distro did you use? Jul 18 22:24:01 debian Jul 18 22:24:05 lenny Jul 18 22:24:15 Can you ssh into the emu? Jul 18 22:24:16 Okay... the RTC works in the Neo. :-) Jul 18 22:24:23 should work Jul 18 22:24:32 Finally not anymore 1970 :-) Jul 18 22:24:41 elrond hm? Jul 18 22:24:45 Elrond, just flashed a new kernel? Jul 18 22:24:47 even after poweroff? Jul 18 22:24:53 did you set up the gadgetfs and cdc_ether modules? Jul 18 22:25:09 Shoragan - Just hacked a bootscript :-) But yes, I saw your kernel fixup. Jul 18 22:25:22 woglinde - Yep, even after poweroff. Just verified. Jul 18 22:25:23 it was alphaone's fix Jul 18 22:25:34 elrond nice Jul 18 22:25:40 ah Jul 18 22:25:44 ~hail alphaone Jul 18 22:25:45 woglinde - Oh, or alpaone. Anyway, my kernel is old. Jul 18 22:25:45 * apt bows down to alphaone and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Jul 18 22:25:55 Huh. Jul 18 22:26:01 Shoragan - Oh, or alpaone. Anyway, my kernel is old. Jul 18 22:26:49 Elrond, it was committed on 11.7. Jul 18 22:27:05 Shoragan: if you are in need of bandwith, I have a site that can be used as a mirror Jul 18 22:27:07 Shoragan - My kernel is from buildhost and a month old or so :-) Jul 18 22:27:18 hm Jul 18 22:27:19 hehe Jul 18 22:27:42 woot. first report of a CC getting charged. Jul 18 22:27:49 * don-o cant believe thats "news" Jul 18 22:27:55 hah Jul 18 22:27:57 where ;) Jul 18 22:28:13 the community mailing list Jul 18 22:29:25 gcb77, thanks, but that won't be a problem Jul 18 22:31:14 Shoragan - Oh, and the newer svn has the long-click on panel-openmoko-mainmenu to show finger-main-menu, which I wasnted to try. ;) Jul 18 22:31:29 our debian mirror uses about 10TB each month, some ISOs won't matter Jul 18 22:32:05 hehe Jul 18 22:32:07 Elrond, i'll try using my image later Jul 18 22:32:44 these are the benefits of being network admin in a student home ;) Jul 18 22:34:49 Hello Jul 18 22:34:58 SpeedEvil: (very late reply) there is a imagemap extension for mediawiki Jul 18 22:35:36 cesarb: due to dependacies, the wiki is stuck with an old version of mediawiki Jul 18 22:39:46 elrond, do you use mokomakefile? Jul 18 22:40:03 if so, trying the new menu should be easy ;) Jul 18 22:42:21 Is it possible to play a ringtone mp3 at the moment? Jul 18 22:42:50 quickdev, the dialer is not full-featured as of yet Jul 18 22:43:14 I know - or not as ringtone - as standard music file? Jul 18 22:44:13 You can play mp3 Jul 18 22:44:15 The audio hardware works Jul 18 22:44:23 madplay Jul 18 22:44:45 oh..nice :) Jul 18 22:45:37 so it would be basically usable as mp3 player, if the power management would be working? Jul 18 22:46:09 its usable- if you dont mind command line and virtual keyboard Jul 18 22:47:56 quickdev: at the moment, the battery lasts maybe 5-7 hours as an MP3 player. Jul 18 22:48:07 quickdev: as I understand it - I have no hardware. Jul 18 22:48:26 Hell, that's pretty much what my T509 gets. Jul 18 22:48:29 In principle, this should be boostable to 20+, if the CPU can be slowed down as promised by the datasheet Jul 18 22:48:34 Okay, so it gets 12, but oy. Jul 18 22:48:39 Is there any way on bitbake to clean old packages? Jul 18 22:48:50 SpeedEvil: 20+ would be awesome ;) Jul 18 22:49:03 (i.e. erase the working dir/resulting package only for packages which aren't the most recent ones anymore) Jul 18 22:49:27 or do I have to periodically purge everything and rebuild to remove the space waste? Jul 18 22:49:51 bill my cc, pretty pretty please Jul 18 22:49:52 with sugar on top Jul 18 22:50:15 SpeedEvil: is basic power management like turning off the screen already working? Jul 18 22:50:17 anybody else get charged yet? Jul 18 22:50:23 quickdev: yes. Jul 18 22:51:57 and there's a problem with shutting down the cpu atm? :P Jul 18 22:52:30 quickdev: slowing down. Jul 18 22:52:37 Shutting it off works just fine. Jul 18 22:52:44 ah, ok^^ Jul 18 22:52:56 is 12mhz enough for mp3 playing? Jul 18 22:52:58 ? Jul 18 22:53:21 does anyone know how many made it in this shipment Jul 18 22:53:28 and what order that makes it thru Jul 18 22:53:40 cesarb: do you mean cleaning up the source using rm_work? (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Tips) Jul 18 22:54:19 gcb77: no, i mean removing the build packages and their work directories when they become obsolete Jul 18 22:54:24 s/build/built/ Jul 18 22:54:24 cesarb meant: gcb77: no, i mean removing the built packages and their work directories when they become obsolete Jul 18 22:54:25 cesarb meant: gcb77: no, i mean removing the built packages and their work directories when they become obsolete Jul 18 22:54:29 urgh Jul 18 22:56:03 moko ninja to the rescue: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dsvyr656c78 Jul 18 22:59:30 Shoragan - (mokomakefile) My current desktop has not enough cpu/disk to do a full mokomakefile run. I mostly build console apps there. X11 is just a monster. Jul 18 22:59:53 ah Jul 18 23:00:47 Shoragan - the gui apps I build straight for my desktop, if I really need to debug them for bug. Jul 18 23:01:07 .oO(Still waiting for someone to commit my dialer patch...) Jul 18 23:01:29 openmoko startup sound: http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/startup_openmoko.mp3 Jul 18 23:01:44 Elrond: what did you improve? :) Jul 18 23:01:50 Elrond, bug numer? Jul 18 23:02:06 #631 Jul 18 23:02:24 Shoragan - But please test it before commiting :-)) Jul 18 23:02:42 quickdev - Made it not segfault on some situation. Jul 18 23:02:58 nah, i'll just refer to you in the commit message Jul 18 23:04:19 fine :) Jul 18 23:04:43 Shoragan - ;o) Jul 18 23:05:12 I still wonder, why nobody looked at it till now. Jul 18 23:05:33 I mean, I don't need it commited sooner. Just wondering. Jul 18 23:05:53 Is the speaker loud enough to play a mp3 song? Jul 18 23:06:12 quickdev - You mean the one for "external"? Yes. Jul 18 23:06:52 Elrond: Isn't there an internal speaker? Jul 18 23:07:57 quickdev - s/external/the stereo ones meant for blastering all the people around you (not to be confused with the ear-speaker, which only blasters your ear, while holding the neo to your ear)/ Jul 18 23:08:38 The stereo ones and the ear-speaker are really better quality than I was expecting from a phone. Jul 18 23:09:21 ah :) So I would be possible to hear a song while walking to a friend without ear speakers? Jul 18 23:10:06 Well, you probably should hold the neo in your hand for that to be good to hear. But yes. Jul 18 23:10:08 * arw_ hello Jul 18 23:10:51 for the startup sound i like the sound on the end of the openmoko videos Jul 18 23:11:26 * Elrond wants no startup sound. Jul 18 23:11:48 Can't we take the windows xp startup sound? *duck* Jul 18 23:12:46 1820 was the order that was filled Jul 18 23:13:27 atleast. Jul 18 23:13:31 no on else as come forward. :/ Jul 18 23:18:53 I reckon we need a proper sound - submissions on the site too Jul 18 23:23:51 openmoko: 03shoragan * r2382 10/trunk/oe/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Update the kernel to the current point release (2.6.21.6). Jul 18 23:32:01 Elrond, you could try http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/~jluebbe/om-images/ in your emulator Jul 18 23:32:05 somthing I have never done is compare the screen side (physically) between a NEO and a 5G iPOD, the NEO' screen is a bit bigger and with higher res so it should be better to watch Video's by a mile Jul 18 23:32:19 s/side/size/ Jul 18 23:32:19 linux_galore meant: somthing I have never done is compare the screen size (physically) between a NEO and a 5G iPOD, the NEO' screen is a bit bigger and with higher res so it should be better to watch Video's by a mile Jul 18 23:32:19 linux_galore meant: somthing I have never done is compare the screen size (physically) between a NEO and a 5G iPOD, the NEO' screen is a bit bigger and with higher res so it should be better to watch Video's by a mile Jul 18 23:33:12 You cant really watch anime on a 5G ipod because the text is too blurry, hope the NEO (GTA02) is better Jul 18 23:33:36 2 may be. Jul 18 23:33:58 1 - you're probably going to be using QVGA mode Jul 18 23:35:40 well the 02 should have more than enough grunt to play video, I wonder if you have to re-encode the resolution Jul 18 23:36:28 the GPX2 plays video files in just about any resolution and thats Linux based (and open) Jul 18 23:36:31 Well - it's claimed that 2 can do some in hardware Jul 18 23:36:51 GP2X sorry Jul 18 23:38:13 SpeedEvil: nick the video player from the GP2X its runs an arm cpu Jul 18 23:38:30 I thought there was hardware involved in the GP2X Jul 18 23:38:48 SpeedEvil: yeah it has a second cpu for video Jul 18 23:39:01 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Games]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:More/Custom_Input_Method_Widgets]] Jul 18 23:39:59 SpeedEvil: but not the cpu's in the GP2X are no way as fast as the 02 Jul 18 23:40:04 note* Jul 18 23:40:34 I would say the 02 has more grunt to be honest Jul 18 23:40:37 Dinno. Jul 18 23:41:54 Shoragan - I could try the kernel on the real thing. ;) But tomorrow. I need to get to bed really soon Jul 18 23:42:51 Good night people :-) Jul 18 23:47:05 So, if I buy a phone, is the base usable? Jul 18 23:48:26 pigpen: once people receive their phones (in a week), that will become obvious. Jul 18 23:48:34 pigpen: until then, its speculation. Jul 18 23:48:51 pigpen: and its pretty much what im waiting for :) Jul 18 23:49:45 :) Jul 18 23:49:47 thanks. Jul 18 23:50:01 I'm waiting for GTA02, at least Jul 18 23:50:02 My business partner wants me to get a new blackberry. Jul 18 23:50:21 pigpen: its bound to be more reliable than the neo w/ openmoko Jul 18 23:50:24 * don-o ducks Jul 18 23:50:45 pigpen: but you'll also be locked in to a carrier and supporting a cruel celluar regime :) Jul 18 23:50:49 yeah..kinda what I was thinking. Jul 18 23:51:15 someone suggested the slogan "Its not just a phone, its a hobby!" and I think thats true. Jul 18 23:51:16 Better than my windoz mobile. Jul 18 23:51:22 Ha! Jul 18 23:51:28 sounds like my gentoo servers. Jul 18 23:51:31 my office told me to get a girlfriend not a phone Jul 18 23:51:32 Ha. Jul 18 23:51:56 so far, ive found the phone easier to aquire. Jul 18 23:52:28 could make for some humor Jul 18 23:52:42 why my phone is better than hobby/significant other Jul 18 23:59:33 we have to be honest though, the NEO wont be fully functional (note the word "fully") for a while Jul 19 00:01:12 Glue a nk1100 on the back, and it makes it work lots better as a phone :) Jul 19 00:01:24 if your after a business phone I would say go get a commercial unit Jul 19 00:02:22 if your after something to hack on get a NEO Jul 19 00:02:48 horses for courses Jul 19 00:03:26 Hey guys: An update on my payment confirmation: I just got a call from VISA Fraud Prevention Services regarding the international charge on my credit card. I Ok-d the charge, and everything is good. Jul 19 00:03:32 Im getting a GTA02 but I doubt I will be using it as my main phone for a while Jul 19 00:05:26 Jason1: wow, the neo is suspicious :D Jul 19 00:05:44 cesarb: Yup. :) Jul 19 00:06:12 (it probably was due to the bizarre currency conversion, if I'm following the drama correctly) Jul 19 00:07:07 cesarb: Well they used their Taiwan merchant account to charge my card. And since I never make purchases outside the US, it flagged as suspisious Jul 19 00:09:14 cool, its now significantly cheaper! Jul 19 00:15:47 (based on entering address on direct.openmoko.com and finishing step 1 (but not continuing after that)) Jul 19 00:15:58 no charges on credit card yet though Jul 19 00:17:04 aloril: You got your payment conf? Jul 19 00:17:14 don't see it Jul 19 00:17:48 what is biggest number processed yet? Jul 19 00:18:03 lol @ video of neos after arrival Jul 19 00:18:26 Psi: hehe. the nija is at it again (after taking a long vacation) Jul 19 00:19:14 aloril: I have been away for a littel while. Are multiple peopl now reporting payment confirmation emails? Jul 19 00:19:24 hmm.. no edits at P1 about credit card charges, so ... hard to say where they are at the moment Jul 19 00:19:46 aloril2: I got mine a few hours ago, but no else seems to have... Jul 19 00:20:02 Jason1, you got a conf email? Jul 19 00:20:09 what ticket no are you? Jul 19 00:20:20 #1820 (aka #1) Jul 19 00:20:21 well.. there should be several before me, it was about 1-2h before I ordered after you Jul 19 00:20:35 ah Jul 19 00:20:37 should be < 500 anyway though ;-) Jul 19 00:20:52 CM is #2. Couldnt reach him earlier... Jul 19 00:21:24 * Psi is 2019 Jul 19 00:21:38 Psi: You got a long way to go :( Jul 19 00:21:43 yeah Jul 19 00:22:01 im #199 Jul 19 00:22:15 aloril: FYI, updated Order Process wiki page... Jul 19 00:22:31 so... I guess they kind of tested ;-) Jul 19 00:22:44 aloril: yeah, apparently. Jul 19 00:24:48 Given the international origin of the charge, the transaction may look suspicious to your bank. My bank's fraud department contacted me to verify the transaction. Jul 19 00:24:50 haha Jul 19 00:25:40 Psi: are you sure they didnt call to verify that your new phone's open source software may not be entirely stable? :) Jul 19 00:25:41 Psi: Yup. Jul 19 00:25:42 should not, I have ordered previous internationally, there is even recent charge ;-) Jul 19 00:25:54 don-o: LOL Jul 19 00:26:24 just so you know, i forgot to put that in quotes, its from the wiki, not me personally Jul 19 00:26:40 "C-3PO: Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable. Han Solo: Not entirely stable! I'm glad you're here to tell us these things." Jul 19 00:27:23 don-o: I think you have a little too much free time... Jul 19 00:27:34 no charge yet here Jul 19 00:27:48 no charge here Jul 19 00:27:50 happycube: What # are you? Jul 19 00:27:53 2047 Jul 19 00:27:57 1964 Jul 19 00:28:07 Has anyone updatef the P1 owners pages? Jul 19 00:28:08 is that estimated delivery date? :) Jul 19 00:28:23 Looks as if my trans was just a test of their system Jul 19 00:28:35 SpeedEvil: I just did. Jul 19 00:28:49 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 19 00:29:00 aloril: your wiki script is slacking Jul 19 00:29:34 wiki changes are put here only once/2h Jul 19 00:29:38 the variants on YES_I_DO are funny Jul 19 00:30:17 I like daMaestro's YES_I_DO_DIDDLY_DO Jul 19 00:30:30 ;-) Jul 19 00:34:41 Ok - so we have one credit card charged in 10 days. That means the last phone should go some time around 2034. Jul 19 00:35:44 SpeedEvil: FIC has proven that they are the fastest at things... Jul 19 00:35:53 are=aren't Jul 19 00:36:19 =) Jul 19 00:36:35 Does that mean that GTA02 will be available in October 2034? Jul 19 00:39:59 Well, for regular consumers its good that they discovered their logistics problems now (with us cause we are more patient) Jul 19 00:40:36 If I wasn't buying the "openmoko" dev preview I would have canceled my order already Jul 19 00:40:52 so what happened? none of the people who put in a transaction got a transaction? Jul 19 00:40:53 calamous: I dont know that I am any more patient, but I understand the reason for hte delays. Jul 19 00:41:25 its like FIC hired software developers, then said oh and do logistics and ecommerce at the same time. Jul 19 00:41:40 it seems they would have inhouse experts to take care of that Jul 19 00:41:53 it's not rocket science to setup osCommerce :P Jul 19 00:42:10 request tracker aint bad, imho. Jul 19 00:42:33 _if_it_worked_reliably_ Jul 19 00:42:49 hmmm Jul 19 00:43:13 the whole YES_I_DO thing is crazy. i would have done that over the web. Jul 19 00:43:13 At this stage you don't try to setup an optimal shipping solution, and then scream and panic at the last minute when it doesn't work. Jul 19 00:43:39 You eat the 5% you might lose on a suboptimal solution, and get on with doing more important stuff. Jul 19 00:43:49 im suprized they didnt ask to send a bash script in the email to be evaluated. Jul 19 00:44:30 lol Jul 19 00:44:34 lol! Jul 19 00:44:42 echo lol Jul 19 00:45:03 i got an email back that said "bash: buy_moko: command not found" wtf? :) Jul 19 00:45:15 heh Jul 19 00:46:31 so like 2047 would imply that 2046 units have already been ordered? Jul 19 00:46:53 if so thats pretty cool. it's not large volume but pretty cool for a small project shipping ot devs Jul 19 00:47:13 holycow: no Jul 19 00:47:19 holycow: it started at 1800 Jul 19 00:47:25 1820 Jul 19 00:47:26 1820, to be exact Jul 19 00:47:28 aha, k Jul 19 00:47:40 best guesses are around 1000-1500 phones were ordered. Jul 19 00:48:00 thats pretty cool Jul 19 00:48:08 largest number is around 3500 Jul 19 00:48:20 anybody else's card charged yet? Jul 19 00:48:27 thats priming the develooper community pretty well Jul 19 00:48:32 or was it just the one dude that made the first order Jul 19 00:48:33 holycow: Indeed. Jul 19 00:48:49 sublime: so far, just me Jul 19 00:49:04 alright, i figured yours was the test Jul 19 00:49:18 the rest will probably be sent out in a mass mailing Jul 19 00:49:26 sublime: yeah, thats too bad. it was looking like the ball was starting to roll. Maybe tomorrow Jul 19 00:49:37 yeah Jul 19 00:50:01 unless they sent yours out and their system took a giant big fat dump like it did when they started taking orders Jul 19 00:50:14 ROFLMA!!! Jul 19 00:50:17 counter_msg (last update 2007-07-19 00:49) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 19 00:50:18 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-19 00:49) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 65% in Jul 19 00:50:18 While mailing his phone to Hawaii. Jul 19 00:50:25 (added few mailing list links) Jul 19 00:50:39 * cesarb is thinking they are using a variant of the slow start algorithm Jul 19 00:50:46 today they ship the first one Jul 19 00:50:51 tomorrow they ship the next two Jul 19 00:50:56 the next day they ship four Jul 19 00:51:00 heh Jul 19 00:51:08 and so on, until they encounter congestion Jul 19 00:51:08 they have do only logistics to business earlier, not to consumers Jul 19 00:51:18 but yeah, they should have hired somebody to do it Jul 19 00:51:21 well if you read the planet dealie, that one dude wrote the cgi in like no time, wasn't given enough time to do it Jul 19 00:51:32 (as LaF0rge said in his blog post) Jul 19 00:51:36 things like that happen under those circumstances Jul 19 00:51:48 has Harold updated his blog? Jul 19 00:52:00 holycow: "that one dude" is laf0rge, which is also the one who burnt out some days ago ;-) Jul 19 00:52:25 Jason1: there was a post from him yesterday IIRC Jul 19 00:52:30 he did : http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/07/index.html Jul 19 00:52:33 LaF0rge, *waves* Jul 19 00:52:33 haha Jul 19 00:52:34 cesarb: thanks Jul 19 00:52:42 holycow - yeah on top of a flu! Jul 19 00:53:16 and not sleeping well, not eating well, and going from taiwan to china and back all the time! Jul 19 00:53:24 exactly Jul 19 00:53:40 from what date is #3697 number? Jul 19 00:53:47 i would've collapsed and/or thrown in the towel far earlier ;) Jul 19 00:54:26 aloril: it was on the 3500s the 13th Jul 19 00:54:47 happycube: it just goes to show how he wants this thing to succeed (sp?) Jul 19 00:55:19 yeah :) Jul 19 00:55:22 * cesarb would have collapsed waaay earlier Jul 19 00:55:40 you have to be really dedicated to hold out that far Jul 19 00:55:49 lol Jul 19 00:55:53 oh c'mon tho Jul 19 00:56:02 i actually think i would be for this... i wasn't for my last job ;) Jul 19 00:56:07 i mean its not like they were given 40 million to make ithappen Jul 19 00:56:15 its typical of the way asians run things Jul 19 00:56:19 yup Jul 19 00:57:06 gld to see devs sticking around tho :) Jul 19 00:57:44 me too Jul 19 00:58:50 Jason1: Have you been billed yet? Jul 19 00:59:03 Has anyone been billed yet? Jul 19 00:59:07 calamous: Yes. Today, about 5 hours ago Jul 19 00:59:24 sagacis: apparently, just me. Jul 19 00:59:35 Jason1: Congrats. I'm about 200 orders heigher than you and I have not yet Jul 19 00:59:39 Are they going in order #? Jul 19 00:59:44 I guess not. Jul 19 01:00:05 sagacis: They start at #1820 and got all the way to #1820 and stopped Jul 19 01:00:31 heh heh. I'm in trouble at 1912, then, eh? Jul 19 01:01:20 SpeedEvil says " Ok - so we have one credit card charged in 10 days. That means the last phone should go some time around 2034." Jul 19 01:02:06 Do you think when I replied YES_I_DO do you think I should have put a \n at the end of it. Because it said it wanted it on a line, but I never completed it Jul 19 01:02:33 Cause if someone threw toghether a parser its a common mistake to make read up to \n and forget everything else Jul 19 01:03:31 calamous: thats anyone's guess. maybe reply again. I dont see how it could hurt... I suspect that they will manually review any responses that could not be parsed, however. Jul 19 01:04:14 Maybe it should have been "YES_I_DO/r/n" Jul 19 01:04:21 er \r\n Jul 19 01:04:45 I bet they are having problems with the credit card process is all. Jul 19 01:04:52 Do we have any idea who's next? Jul 19 01:04:59 no Jul 19 01:05:08 sagacis: CM should be nect Jul 19 01:05:10 1823 is on the wiki Jul 19 01:05:40 Jason1: We should add a column charged to the P1 owners page Jul 19 01:05:59 I just saw Jason1's ml post... Jul 19 01:06:09 Mine is #1828, and I haven't been charged yet... Jul 19 01:06:41 Ok then I guess jason1 was the credit card charge system beta tester Jul 19 01:06:42 CM in Sweden has the next order Jul 19 01:07:09 calamous: Good idea. I'm there now. Should I add it? Jul 19 01:07:19 We have "Arrived" Jul 19 01:07:23 yeah Jul 19 01:09:48 sagacis: Do it. Feel free to modify my line Jul 19 01:12:11 OK, if the wiki will update.... Jul 19 01:12:35 Maybe we should put date in the Payed column Jul 19 01:13:15 Better. Too bad the list isn't sorted by order number... Jul 19 01:13:31 http://rectum.antiville.fr/ Jul 19 01:13:31 This is how I end up editing every wiki page and adding little/no value... Jul 19 01:13:33 http://rectum.antiville.fr/ Jul 19 01:14:59 sagacis: How about one more column for "Ship Date"? Jul 19 01:15:26 Man wiki tables aren't easy, you know... :( Jul 19 01:15:35 Sure. Will we know ship date? Jul 19 01:15:58 sagacis: acording to the pay conf email, they will send a ship notfiication email... Jul 19 01:16:15 http://www.chooseopen.com/PaymentReceived.png Jul 19 01:16:18 So, they charged you but haven't actually shipped? Jul 19 01:16:28 sagacis: Yup :( Jul 19 01:16:43 sagacis: Good new is that they are now obligated to ship :) Jul 19 01:18:35 sagacis: Also, I think "Payed" is spelled "Paid" ;) Jul 19 01:19:37 Wow! That's pretty funny. I even changed it from Payment Charged. I speek inglesh good. Jul 19 01:20:05 Of course, I'm tired from editing wiki pages at work all day. Jul 19 01:20:24 Argh! Conflict Jul 19 01:21:15 Er, sorry. I should edit and IRC in parallel Jul 19 01:21:59 Jason1: You use kmail, can that interface with any groupware? Jul 19 01:23:47 uhhm I connect to Exchange at work. I think you can also access calendars on OpenGroupWare, OpenXchange, Groupwise, and eGroupware Jul 19 01:23:58 compbrain: Check to make sure I got it right when I saved. Jul 19 01:24:01 Third time is a charm Jul 19 01:24:43 sagacis: Awesome Jul 19 01:24:48 sagacis: Looks good Jul 19 01:25:26 compbrain stomped me twice. :-/ Jul 19 01:25:31 But, it's all good Jul 19 01:26:46 'Shipped Arrived' looks funny, even though it is correct Jul 19 01:27:08 compbrain: Once I put my ship date in, it will look great :) Jul 19 01:27:29 We could add borders, but that'll look clunky Jul 19 01:30:30 Jason1: Rubbing it in, eh? ;) Jul 19 01:30:59 compbrain: I earned it :) Jul 19 01:33:57 (18:48:13) Jason1: largest number is around 3500 Jul 19 01:33:57 /me <-- 3900 Jul 19 01:34:26 lol, you might as well wait for GTA02 Jul 19 01:34:34 ckuethe: Wow. thats alot of orders! Jul 19 01:34:39 sublime: LOL Jul 19 01:34:55 no, i want GTA01 so i have a phone i can hack on and a phone i can use Jul 19 01:34:55 im 95% serious Jul 19 01:35:07 heh Jul 19 01:35:15 wouldn't surprise me if they did a hardware rev before i get mine Jul 19 01:35:34 Heres hoping the massive dogfood consumption will boost development Jul 19 01:35:45 also, GTA01 is a "work phone" for me... i'm supposed to port openbsd to it Jul 19 01:35:57 and i'm bored of my RAZR Jul 19 01:36:30 GTA02, whether it runs openbsd, openmoko or openvms looks like it'll be a good choice for my next phone Jul 19 01:36:50 you seen javaFX mobile Jul 19 01:36:54 ? Jul 19 01:36:57 there's tons of stuff to do before GTA02 is ready/usable, and much of that can be done on GTA01 Jul 19 01:37:00 no, i haven't Jul 19 01:37:10 ok, let me see if i cant find the video of it Jul 19 01:37:25 but sun has a new java mobile os running on a neo Jul 19 01:39:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_groups:_Boston]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Direct.openmoko.com_order_process]] [[User:Tingo]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Arizona]] [[GPS_Navigation]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[MokoMakefile]] Jul 19 01:41:26 i think this is it Jul 19 01:41:28 http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39287013,00.htm Jul 19 01:41:52 watch through it and hell hold up a neo running java fx Jul 19 01:43:09 Link to it http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/when_not_where Jul 19 01:44:19 that picture is obviously a really bad photochop but in the video he actually plays with it a little Jul 19 01:44:30 i doubt its very functional but it still ran Jul 19 01:44:49 and i think it looks pretty slick too Jul 19 01:45:05 iphone rip off but still nice Jul 19 01:47:23 Could just be video - who knows. Jul 19 01:47:32 true Jul 19 02:11:16 Does anyone know anything about build quality of the phase 0 neo1973? Jul 19 02:11:17 pixelstick: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 19 02:11:52 pixelstick: build quality? Jul 19 02:12:30 build quality meaning if you drop it from 6" onto a pillow will it break into 8million pieces Jul 19 02:12:44 ahh Jul 19 02:12:49 lol Jul 19 02:12:53 but does it blend? Jul 19 02:13:02 iphone blends Jul 19 02:13:05 exactly Jul 19 02:13:05 I saw "build", and thought compile for some reason Jul 19 02:13:08 lol Jul 19 02:13:08 Surely, since the iphone blends, it will too Jul 19 02:13:10 iphone blended real nice Jul 19 02:13:12 lol Jul 19 02:13:23 the battery caught fire inside the blender Jul 19 02:13:26 yes Jul 19 02:13:32 It was fun Jul 19 02:13:34 the quality of the product Jul 19 02:13:34 mmm, iPhone smoke Jul 19 02:13:38 don't breathe that Jul 19 02:13:40 with the neo you can remove the battery so it'll blend better ;) Jul 19 02:13:42 lol, ya Jul 19 02:13:44 lol Jul 19 02:14:04 ok bbl Jul 19 02:14:06 :) Jul 19 02:15:59 Is anyone in here lucky enough to use or see one of the pre-phase 1 or phase 1 units? Jul 19 02:16:29 yes. i do Jul 19 02:17:11 Nod, what is the build quality of the unit like? Jul 19 02:17:30 better than iphone Jul 19 02:17:44 the next generation product Jul 19 02:17:48 ok, sounds good Jul 19 02:18:07 yea!! with GPU Jul 19 02:18:17 But I haven't seen an iPhone either :) Jul 19 02:18:33 ha...me either Jul 19 02:19:09 lol Jul 19 02:19:21 but i know i am waiting for the next Neo Jul 19 02:19:37 I'm just glad I haven't had the iPhone shoved in my face. Jul 19 02:19:55 I am probably going to wait for the next one too Jul 19 02:20:08 I like my current phone enough to hold out Jul 19 02:20:14 for a little longer Jul 19 02:20:15 I kinda want to, but the whole $150 extra thing... Jul 19 02:20:30 * bassinbo1 needs to sell his dash Jul 19 02:21:12 I want to try to get the wifi Jul 19 02:21:20 ha...who wanna buy a phone without free mind Jul 19 02:22:33 I hope that they can get voip working on it Jul 19 02:22:49 It would be great to have an open voip/gsm hybrid phone Jul 19 02:23:16 and without the camera Jul 19 02:25:02 maybe we can hold a vote to decide what kind of component we want it Jul 19 02:28:54 Put it on the wiki Jul 19 02:35:53 maybe a newer model will have a camera Jul 19 02:37:49 this is FIC, not canon, it'll be just as bad as any other cellphone camera Jul 19 02:37:52 i hope they keep the camera optional Jul 19 02:38:19 Many people can't have a cameraphone for work and other reasons. Jul 19 02:40:17 pixelstick: I don't think I'd use "many" there. Jul 19 02:45:52 There are many Jul 19 02:46:42 many who also get to choose which cellphone to buy, and would be interested in a cellphone that gives them freedom? Jul 19 02:46:42 there are many more that can have a camera at work though Jul 19 02:46:58 I'm interested in a cellphone that gives me freedom, and as a result am not interested in working somewhere that doesn't. :-) Jul 19 02:47:23 It feels like you're trying to optimize for a tiny overlapping of sets. Jul 19 02:47:43 its like the guys that wanted the UI to cater to colorblind people saying theres lots of colorblind people out there Jul 19 02:47:52 There are. Jul 19 02:48:01 well theres lots more people that arent color blind so they should deal with it Jul 19 02:48:20 cjb, camera phones aren't that great anyway... one of the supposed best (n95) can't beat a fairly standard digital camera Jul 19 02:48:52 i have big hands so i think the phone should be completely restructured and rebuilt to cater to me and my big handed friends Jul 19 02:49:11 meh. i got the black razr rather than the silver because at the time, the black one had the camera and the silver one didn't... i used the camera for about a week. then went back to my canon sd400 Jul 19 02:49:14 doesnt sound right does it Jul 19 02:50:20 sublime: In software? Hell yes. Jul 19 02:50:29 sublime: And for me, smaller buttons because my hands are slim Jul 19 02:50:33 while there is the argument "a picture tells a thousand words", i don't see how a camera module is key to the core competency of a *phone* Jul 19 02:51:02 as for colourblindness or whatever, how about some kind of skin tool? Jul 19 02:51:14 a little wizard to give you a quick colourblindness test Jul 19 02:51:14 I am fine if they make it modular with a camera, but I want a choice too Jul 19 02:51:27 what needs to be done before phase2? Jul 19 02:51:28 and it'll try generate a skin that you can see Jul 19 02:51:54 choice is good. i'll choose the one without the camera - you can have stereo cameras. ;) Jul 19 02:52:18 anyone use eclipse for the development of openmoko? Jul 19 02:52:26 the embedded devices plugin? Jul 19 02:54:18 aria: yeah but youre talking about a feature for like 10% of the worlds population that could take up quite a bit of room Jul 19 02:54:20 balls Jul 19 02:54:55 how does wireless phone internet plans work. as far as having a login/password just like normal broadband? i ask because I briefly had tmobile internet and i never had to login or anything. i'm worried that internet only works on provider's own phones. Jul 19 02:55:55 well, there is the cell network and the wifi part Jul 19 02:56:23 typically one will use the wifi to use voip for the lower latency Jul 19 02:56:59 you get an account with the voip company that you want to use, and enter the information into the voip software on the phone Jul 19 02:57:17 then it would work in wifi environments, and you wouldn't use your cell minutes Jul 19 02:57:52 the cell networks are more like a dial up more Jul 19 02:57:53 mode Jul 19 02:59:00 it seems to call a number Jul 19 02:59:09 tmobile doesn't use password and username i think Jul 19 02:59:30 but it is a type of dial-up networking, but through the cell network Jul 19 02:59:42 ohh, i wasn't talking about voip since i'll never use that in my life. i just meant internet, through your providers. i wondered how they know that it's you. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jul 19 02:59:58 2007