**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jul 25 02:59:57 2007 Jul 25 03:00:07 daMaestro, what would -clean do? Delete the .openmoko dir? Jul 25 03:00:46 yeah, basically Jul 25 03:01:52 daMaestro, Personally, I hate hidden files/directories. I'd just use ~/openmoko and let people manage them as they see fit. Jul 25 03:02:10 ok, thanks for the input Jul 25 03:02:25 i might actually require the user tell the script where it is allowed to work Jul 25 03:03:10 That's probably the best of both worlds. Jul 25 03:03:40 I agree. Hidden directories fly in the face of openness Jul 25 03:05:03 Howdy, I've had an openmoko QEUM install for quite a while and I thought I should really get down to some hacking so today I tried to do an update to get the latest images before I try and make some changes Jul 25 03:05:12 Well, it's not really anti-openness, since it's documented. It just makes tidying up more complicated. My home directory is a mess! Jul 25 03:06:03 after doing a make update, I tried to do a make flash-qemu-local and it failed with the error message : checking for WEBKITGTK... Package WebKitGdk was not found in the pkg-config search path. Jul 25 03:06:27 Hey guys, thanks. See-ya! Jul 25 03:07:55 any thoughts? Jul 25 03:10:21 mrcucumber: I suspect we wait until it is added :) Jul 25 03:10:50 ajmitch: so I can't do any development until it gets updated? Jul 25 03:11:13 mrcucumber: I don't know, you may be able to force it back to an earlier revision Jul 25 03:12:44 * Aria is away: Y'know. Stuff. Jul 25 03:13:07 * Aria is back (gone 00:00:01) Jul 25 03:27:28 the mail list has become really tedious Jul 25 03:30:06 It's out of control Jul 25 03:30:17 gmail doesn't make it any easier Jul 25 03:33:33 hi Jul 25 03:33:43 hi Jul 25 03:33:54 any news about the orders? Jul 25 03:34:01 * SpeedEvil points at the topic. Jul 25 03:35:01 bummer the neo won't be coming with 3G right away Jul 25 03:35:05 yes, but i don't got chaged yet Jul 25 03:35:09 makes me think about waiting. Jul 25 03:35:52 i think i should have been already, i'm #2262 Jul 25 03:35:58 baby steps, people, baby steps... Jul 25 03:37:09 I'm 1970 and haven't heard a word Jul 25 03:38:32 SpeedEvil: don't you ever sleep? Jul 25 03:40:48 * SpeedEvil is having sleep problems ATm. Jul 25 03:46:30 trains: Will said today that if you have not been charged yet, then your devices is part of SH1-Part2 which will arrive in California next week Jul 25 03:53:45 yes, i read it, but i was hopping to have missread :) Jul 25 04:11:53 hehe Jul 25 04:48:50 is there a way to do the moral equivalent of a "make clean" in bitbake? Jul 25 04:53:25 -cclean Jul 25 05:04:23 moin Jul 25 06:01:00 argh - add_lzo.patch is breaking too Jul 25 06:12:09 happycube: according to mailing lists you should just delete this patch Jul 25 06:12:24 should be upstream so no patching is needed... Jul 25 06:13:16 ah it was you posting :) Jul 25 06:16:20 openmoko: 03roh * r2388 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-power_control.patch: Jul 25 06:16:20 openmoko: this should fix a missing sysfs entry when using gllin on _old_ (pre gta01bv3) devices Jul 25 06:16:20 openmoko: thanks henryk Jul 25 06:30:08 is FIC hiring developers ? Jul 25 06:32:27 empty_mind: http://www.openmoko.com/careers-index.html Jul 25 06:32:52 empty_mind: But if you want to look into it, I think sending an email (and not asking on IRC) is the way to go. Jul 25 06:32:56 empty_mind we do.. on an case by case basis of course ;) Jul 25 06:33:05 (jobs@openmoko.com) Jul 25 06:33:10 send a mail to jobs@ and be patient Jul 25 06:33:25 ok Jul 25 06:33:27 is anyone on the channel able to confirm if my order is still valid? Jul 25 06:33:38 currently there is a lot happening and it could take some time to answer all requests... generally speaking Jul 25 06:33:56 roh, i can understand Jul 25 06:34:05 just that all the order numbers around mine here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners have received order confirmation emails Jul 25 06:34:08 * duffyd is worried Jul 25 06:34:20 mine is #2018 Jul 25 06:34:21 * daxxar was just about to ask about shipping, but saw the topic. Jul 25 06:34:41 duffyd, i think they are shipping all US based orders Jul 25 06:34:49 empty_mind: ahhhh Jul 25 06:35:01 duffyd: Have you gotten a "Payment received"-email? Jul 25 06:35:10 ic but I still haven't received an order confirmation. I noticed an australian has Jul 25 06:35:13 duffyd, non US based orders will should start shipping ina day or two Jul 25 06:35:22 she's the next 2 numbers up from me Jul 25 06:35:49 duffyd, read the topic Jul 25 06:36:01 daxxar: sorry I meant I haven't received the 'payment received' email Jul 25 06:36:06 empty_mind: yup read it Jul 25 06:36:15 but my enquiry isn't related Jul 25 06:36:27 duffyd: Then you should could perhaps privmsg roh. :-) Jul 25 06:36:34 s/should// Jul 25 06:36:34 daxxar meant: duffyd: Then you could perhaps privmsg roh. :-) Jul 25 06:36:36 daxxar: thanks :-) Jul 25 06:36:58 He might prefer to receive it per email, though, but have a try. :-) Jul 25 06:37:51 daxxar: thanks Jul 25 06:41:40 i try to get my gadgetfs up&running but encounter the error: "mount: unknown filesystem type 'gadget'" when mounting. in syslog i see "kernel: gadgetfs: USB Gadget filesystem, version 24 Aug 2004". any idea what's going wrong? Jul 25 06:42:04 it's called 'gadgetfs' Jul 25 06:42:07 not 'gadget' Jul 25 06:42:17 i have kernel 2.6.21-2-686, debian unstable. the module dummy_hcd is missing. Jul 25 06:42:41 and I think you need dummy_hcd Jul 25 06:42:45 oh, sorry, wrong line: "mount: unknown filesystem type 'gadgetfs'". i checked wwithout fs Jul 25 06:42:49 I've never actually used it, though. Jul 25 06:42:57 because the 'ifconfig usb0 up' locked up my machine Jul 25 06:43:00 so how do you ssh into qemu? Jul 25 06:43:04 not :-) Jul 25 06:43:30 mdt: did you build your kernel? Jul 25 06:43:42 no, it's the debian package Jul 25 06:43:58 DUMMY_HCD is disabled there... Jul 25 06:44:11 what is this hcd for? Jul 25 06:44:20 disabled or built as a module that's not in the default packahe? Jul 25 06:44:24 you'll have to build new dummy_hcd and gadgetfs modules Jul 25 06:44:45 then remove the already-built gadgetfs and net2280 modules Jul 25 06:44:50 and replace them with yours Jul 25 06:45:14 gcb77, okay, will try that... Jul 25 06:45:33 guaqua, what do you mean 'not in the default package'? Jul 25 06:45:54 in the default kernel package Jul 25 06:46:24 guaqua, what do you mean with 'default package'? Jul 25 06:46:33 there are all sorts of extra kernel modules in the normal package repositories - way easier to use them, if they provide the right modules Jul 25 06:46:56 default as in what you have installed and what you use Jul 25 06:47:01 guaqua, that are modules not in the linux source tree as far as i know Jul 25 06:47:30 like slmodem, thinkpad, fglrx and so on Jul 25 06:47:58 debian kernel is not a vanilla kernel Jul 25 06:48:36 do you use testing? Jul 25 06:49:03 no, its not vanilla, it's chocolate ;) i use unstable Jul 25 06:50:12 that might be a place to look in: http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=modules&searchon=all&subword=1&version=unstable&release=all Jul 25 06:50:31 * amarsh04 uses unstable also, but hasn't the space/time to build qemu/openmoko Jul 25 06:52:13 amarsh04, you don't need to. see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu Jul 25 06:52:35 it might be less time consuming to build your own kernel Jul 25 06:53:32 guaqua, but i don't see gadgetfs there... Jul 25 06:53:45 and: gadgetfs itself is in the kernelimage Jul 25 06:55:19 I regularly build kernels, but it takes 9 hours on a quiet PII-266 with 256 MiB RAM Jul 25 06:55:37 thanks mdt Jul 25 06:55:50 building qemu + openmoko takes an eternity Jul 25 06:55:57 at least on my duron 1600 Jul 25 06:57:22 :D yes, and i had to fix 2 or three things in the middle of the build so it took 2 days.... Jul 25 06:58:40 is there any docu about the gui in the wiki? i don't understand it... what is this wheel for? Jul 25 06:59:22 mdt: I think the wheel is a scroll wheel Jul 25 06:59:43 vallor, yes, thought so also.. hm. Jul 25 07:10:21 morning Jul 25 07:16:37 So did the neos ship? Jul 25 07:16:40 hm, it seems that it's evil gmail making that dupe posts Jul 25 07:16:49 Cause yesterday was the 24th Jul 25 07:16:56 and thas what the title says Jul 25 07:44:49 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 25 07:47:02 Hello master Jul 25 08:08:37 someone or something has cmpletely knobbed up the mailing list Jul 25 08:11:18 heh heh, whats happened? Jul 25 08:13:26 gmail is sending out a gazillion duplicates again Jul 25 08:18:05 according to one of emails openmoko mailserver also react in weird way during delivering posts Jul 25 08:24:34 * blindcoder just added a procmail recipe to kill dupes Jul 25 08:25:42 :0 Wh: msgid.lock Jul 25 08:25:43 | formail -D 8192 ~/Maildir/.msgid.cache Jul 25 08:26:02 I only hope the dupes occur withing 8k messages :) Jul 25 08:26:20 * koen curses spam Jul 25 08:27:08 is there any news about the number of orders FIC does have and the number of available phones / upcoming production? Jul 25 08:27:13 my understanding is that the openmoko mail server is telling other mail servers that it has rejected the message, yet is still delivering it internally. Jul 25 08:27:56 s/number of orders /number of ordered phones/ Jul 25 08:27:57 gamin meant: is there any news about the number of ordered phonesFIC does have and the number of available phones / upcoming production? Jul 25 08:27:58 hi Jul 25 08:28:19 rwhitby: like greylisting gone wrong? Jul 25 08:28:26 rwhitby: Unless it's a gmail thing, there seem to be issues with gmail and some list servers. Jul 25 08:29:30 koen: I expect it's probably a load issue on the openmoko server. Jul 25 08:30:06 hads: there's reports from people who are not going through gmail, yet have their posts duplicated. Note even gmail apps domains. Jul 25 08:30:12 s/Note/not/ Jul 25 08:30:12 rwhitby meant: hads: there's reports from people who are not going through gmail, yet have their posts duplicated. not even gmail apps domains. Jul 25 08:30:15 I can't create an account on the openmoko wiki.... is there something wrong with it? Jul 25 08:30:47 and the webmaster contact that it links me to is the generic webmaster with no really addy there Jul 25 08:31:31 koen: that's why I filter spam first and then do the rest :) Jul 25 08:31:43 blindcoder: same here :) Jul 25 08:46:55 * jeddy3 is a little scared "please wait another day" in ML doen't mean "_one_ extra day", but "_some_ other day" Jul 25 08:48:59 jeddy3: Ae you talking about a neo order again? Jul 25 08:49:16 ewanm89_laptop, yes...still :) Jul 25 08:50:15 neverending story... Jul 25 08:50:36 indeed :) Jul 25 08:51:53 just worried about how topic interpreted it to 25/7, when rather it could mean "wait until another day" Jul 25 08:53:12 So much negativity. Jul 25 08:53:21 there is "another day" in that post Jul 25 08:53:26 so it could be 25/7 Jul 25 08:53:51 dunno if some americans have UPS tracking numbers already Jul 25 09:00:52 it should be today for the rest of the planet - yesterday for usa Jul 25 09:01:50 but.. now you've raised the concern jeddy3.. Jul 25 09:01:57 gah curse you! Jul 25 09:02:51 when do the first americans wake up? Jul 25 09:02:59 11am ? Jul 25 09:03:09 ScaredyCat, >:D Jul 25 09:11:33 although technically... its really going to be tomorrow... Jul 25 09:15:28 well 9am in california should be in about 7hrs Jul 25 09:15:33 i believe Jul 25 09:15:48 as its being distributed from california i think i read somewhere Jul 25 09:31:29 hi everyone Jul 25 09:32:04 where can I find the EXACT list of at commands supported by neo's modem ? Jul 25 09:32:13 on the wiki? Jul 25 09:32:38 OK sorry I found it Jul 25 09:32:46 add it to a bot :) Jul 25 09:34:05 hum Jul 25 09:34:15 I was expecting a full description of every commands Jul 25 09:34:24 even specific ones Jul 25 09:34:55 it's in the 07.07 spec no Jul 25 09:34:56 ? Jul 25 09:35:02 yeah Jul 25 09:35:04 of course Jul 25 09:35:09 http://www.ctiforum.com/standard/standard/etsi/0707.pdf Jul 25 09:35:16 I found it, ok Jul 25 09:35:26 are there specific commands ? Jul 25 09:35:42 I'm searching something to run the A3 algorithms on the sim etc... Jul 25 09:35:58 Think I'm dreaming Jul 25 09:36:03 :) Jul 25 09:36:06 squalyl: careful with that Jul 25 09:36:35 XorA: I know what I'm doing :) Jul 25 09:36:58 If there isn't, then UMA on OpenMoko will be totally out. Jul 25 09:37:10 squalyl: the algorithms have a built in drop dead after X iterations, so dont brute them Jul 25 09:37:30 fine. Jul 25 09:37:40 But at least, is there a mean to run them? Jul 25 09:37:49 :) Jul 25 09:37:52 squalyl: ca you send RAW GSM commands Jul 25 09:38:06 with neo's modem? Jul 25 09:38:13 where is the doc please? :) Jul 25 09:38:37 no idea, but if you can send any command to the card using a modem command, then its an easy task Jul 25 09:38:56 hehe Jul 25 09:39:21 good morning Jul 25 09:39:31 good morning Jul 25 09:40:15 libgsmd-tool -m atcmd Jul 25 09:40:24 passes stuff through Jul 25 09:40:58 raw commands? Jul 25 09:41:09 squalyl: do you know any GSM at all? Jul 25 09:41:16 not a lot Jul 25 09:41:25 I'm investigating possibilities now Jul 25 09:41:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd#Usage_of_atcmd_mode Jul 25 09:41:57 It's just a search of what is possible or not to get UMA on an open platform Jul 25 09:42:45 squalyl: well then you probably need to know if you can send ISO7816 T0 commands with an AT command Jul 25 09:43:38 do you know if it's possible? Jul 25 09:43:42 * XorA knows how to do it on the SIM level as I spent 5 years writing SIMs Jul 25 09:43:49 :) Jul 25 09:43:54 but not if you can do it from the wrong side of an AT command Jul 25 09:43:56 in SIMcity? Jul 25 09:44:01 :) Jul 25 09:44:26 mornin' Jul 25 09:44:46 hey Stephmw Jul 25 09:44:49 hello Jul 25 09:45:04 Hello master Jul 25 09:45:10 XorA: We have very little information about the calypso modem. Jul 25 09:45:46 XorA: if some command allows this, it will be undocumented :( Jul 25 09:46:01 I'm pretty sure OpenMoko UMA is dead with this modem Jul 25 09:46:27 * XorA has no idea what UMA is Jul 25 09:46:44 ok :) Jul 25 09:47:05 UMA is a way to route GSM calls through IP networks Jul 25 09:47:18 to help unloading GSM base stations Jul 25 09:47:26 etc... Jul 25 09:48:04 It authenticates the mobile phone using IMSI + "EAP/SIM" authentication method to build an IPsec tunnel Jul 25 09:48:17 this is documented in 3GPP TS 43.318 Jul 25 09:49:16 look what carriers did with GSM-CTS - they don't want the handsets to reduce call revenue Jul 25 09:49:23 EAP/SIM relies on a MAC with a remote server that uses A3 algorithm in the sim. Jul 25 09:49:47 The goal is not to reduce cost for the user but to allow more users to use GSM things Jul 25 09:50:09 GSM base stations only supports a limited number of users simultaneouly Jul 25 09:50:18 maximising ARPU, that's what it's all about Jul 25 09:50:26 but using public IP networks has no limitations Jul 25 09:50:29 * ScaredyCat compiles sidplayer ... Jul 25 09:50:33 what is ARPU? Jul 25 09:51:51 i think it's impossible with neo Jul 25 09:51:56 that UMA Jul 25 09:52:24 I think too Jul 25 09:52:32 but I want to be 100% sure :) Jul 25 09:52:36 calypso might be able to do it, but I thnik that the commands/specs are under NDA Jul 25 09:52:44 ask on mailing list Jul 25 09:53:02 OK Jul 25 09:53:35 there was some discussion about gsm chipset and NDA recently Jul 25 09:54:04 i think, that somebody asked about that UMA also Jul 25 09:55:33 I followed the discussion about NDA Jul 25 09:56:08 and you know about some carrier which have publicly available access to UMA ? Jul 25 09:56:20 i think it's against their profit Jul 25 09:56:44 so I would be suprised if they'll allow it to anyone Jul 25 09:57:16 anyway make some wiki page about your research pls :) Jul 25 09:57:43 I will do that. I'm already writing something. Jul 25 09:57:50 nice, thanks Jul 25 10:14:16 I wrote to the gsmd mailing list Jul 25 10:14:33 hope my french english is fully understandable :) Jul 25 10:15:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Virginia]] [[Talk:P1_Owners]] [[IM]] [[Terminal]] [[Calendar]] [[Feed_Reader]] [[IM_Presence]] [[Camera]] [[Ambient_light_sensor]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Braga]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] and other changes Jul 25 10:23:30 ah it was you before also :) Jul 25 10:39:45 Hello. Jul 25 10:50:17 Hello World ;-) Jul 25 10:57:49 Calypso is basically completely in flash. Jul 25 10:58:03 And completely flashable. Jul 25 10:58:11 But with no docs Jul 25 11:02:37 SpeedEvil - "completely flashable" sounds like brickable? ;) Jul 25 11:03:02 Elrond, no, it sounds "completely brickable" Jul 25 11:07:21 Yay! Will Lai got my card charged! Jul 25 11:07:55 * * OM Bug 658 has been created by openmoko(AT)twiceasgood.net Jul 25 11:07:56 * * add_lzo.patch fails to apply cleanly to mtd-utils-native Jul 25 11:07:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=658 Jul 25 11:09:27 sagacis, it is rarely you see people that happy for losing money Jul 25 11:09:46 indeed :-) Jul 25 11:10:14 how many people already got phones? (from order) Jul 25 11:10:42 It's been a struggle. I'm glad that phase is over. Jul 25 11:10:53 Now, to get the phone shipped..... Jul 25 11:12:18 hej MDK Jul 25 11:13:33 It's flashable. Jul 25 11:13:52 But simply not available. Jul 25 11:14:03 The way to flash it. Jul 25 11:14:15 And it's probably encrypted and signed. Jul 25 11:15:16 * Stephmw nods Jul 25 11:15:50 and... I can't really think of a reason why someone would want to reflash it with a homegrown one Jul 25 11:15:55 The next interesting question is: Is it readable? ;o) Jul 25 11:16:00 has it shipped for anybody yet? in ML it was said that it shipped to USA, but don't see any mention of anybody getting tracking number Jul 25 11:16:40 Stephmw: configurability. Also moving some policy into the modem. Jul 25 11:16:56 For example, list of callers numbers to ignore, list to wake phone on. Jul 25 11:16:59 Stephmw - Yeah, right. But being able to install the updated gsm firmware wuld be nice. Jul 25 11:17:03 is anyone in the us awake yet? Jul 25 11:17:09 disable FOTA.... Jul 25 11:17:24 fota? Jul 25 11:17:36 * SpeedEvil stabs the BBC. Jul 25 11:17:37 SpeedEvil: list to wake phone on? how would it be asleep and make that check? :) Jul 25 11:17:50 Elrond: Flash Over The Air Jul 25 11:17:58 Ahh, fota. Jul 25 11:17:59 Kero: the modem only being on. Jul 25 11:18:10 the operator can reflash your firmware for you, wirelessly Jul 25 11:18:11 moda fota Jul 25 11:18:11 Kero: it's got quite an adequate CPU on it. Jul 25 11:18:16 * FuzzyCat sniggers Jul 25 11:18:18 Hmm, make silent sms not any more silent? ;-) Jul 25 11:18:54 That sort of thing. Jul 25 11:19:33 SpeedEvil: cute. can the Neo do that, too? Jul 25 11:19:39 In principle. Jul 25 11:19:48 However, you can't reflash the modem. Jul 25 11:19:49 So no. Jul 25 11:20:19 some sim cards (like some dual sim adaptors) add an extra menu to your phone - anyone know if the moko can / does support this? Jul 25 11:20:39 I have a dual sim adaptor in my 6230i for taking advantage of various offers the network operators have Jul 25 11:20:39 You can AIUI send commands to the SIM Jul 25 11:20:42 is that flash somehwere for download? Jul 25 11:20:53 ynezz: no. Jul 25 11:20:59 As I understand it, we can use some crazy heuristics on the TA02, because it has an ampermeter "modem taking too much power for no obvious reason, cutting power" ;o) Jul 25 11:21:01 ynezz: basically it's TI internal only. Jul 25 11:21:25 ynezz: and only available only in binary encrypted form even to large users Jul 25 11:21:39 As I understand it, TI has to make any mods you want. Jul 25 11:21:40 ah Jul 25 11:22:05 sagacis_: update P1_Owners already ;) Jul 25 11:22:14 SpeedEvil: and do you know what process is needed to upload the new flash into modem? Jul 25 11:22:14 SpeedEvil - I vaguely remember, laforge got the devel kit for that part? Jul 25 11:22:44 I remember reading about him having to port some heinous windows-only devtool for it Jul 25 11:22:51 ynezz: that's also private - you can't even release the specs of the tool to flash it. Jul 25 11:23:10 And yes, there is an opensource tool to flash them inside FIC which they can't release. Jul 25 11:23:24 i don't want to flash it, i just want to read that flash back :p Jul 25 11:23:33 openmoko: 03stefan * r2389 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: Jul 25 11:23:33 openmoko: * Pin down the rss-reader version until #648 is fixed properly. I would wait Jul 25 11:23:33 openmoko: until oe sync instead pulling all the webkit stuff plus deps into our overlay. Jul 25 11:23:38 It's almost certainly encrypted. Jul 25 11:23:43 And hashed. Jul 25 11:23:51 LarstiQ: I did. Do you not see my entry? Jul 25 11:24:04 so it's decrypted on the fly? Jul 25 11:24:45 It's pretty standard to write an encrypted blob into the device, which gets decrypted based on keys already loaded into it - in the last firmware. Jul 25 11:24:45 encrypted using tea ;o) Jul 25 11:25:06 i prefer cofee with milk and 2 sugars Jul 25 11:25:17 feh Jul 25 11:25:21 black or not at all Jul 25 11:25:22 And have only a way to checksum the existing firmware, not to download it. Jul 25 11:25:57 So we need a quantum analyser to read the flash. ;o) Jul 25 11:26:10 Or rubber hose crypto. Jul 25 11:26:27 sagacis_: it updated, thanks! Jul 25 11:26:57 or send neo to Dejan with some bucks... Jul 25 11:27:01 * LarstiQ should remeber to refresh more often. Jul 25 11:27:12 ah yes, rubber-hose crypto. Now that's a module I'd enjoy in a comp sci degree. Jul 25 11:27:14 ynezz - dejan? Jul 25 11:27:21 famous unlocker Jul 25 11:27:26 ewon: which end of hose? Jul 25 11:27:43 XorA: giggidy Jul 25 11:27:56 LarstiQ: how is the order going? Jul 25 11:28:02 'Hose selection'. 'Length of hose'. 'Frequency and amplitude of application'. Jul 25 11:28:04 Jeroen: hasn't moved any yet.\ Jul 25 11:30:19 also, we need hose accessory for neo 8) Jul 25 11:32:02 Dmitry_Platonov - Hi. BTW: Is you first name "Dmitry" or "Dmirty"? (You use the later in your mail From:) Jul 25 11:36:16 Heh, sounds like a typo. Dmitry is my name. Jul 25 11:36:44 tracking number anyone? :p Jul 25 11:37:00 not I :/ :) Jul 25 11:39:09 * SpeedEvil has a tracking number. (for some samples from TI) Jul 25 11:39:20 calypso? :) Jul 25 11:39:25 No. Jul 25 11:39:40 They only send you samples of that if you can demonstrate that you are a suitable customer. Jul 25 11:40:00 Which basically means you need to tell them how many million phones you sold last year. Jul 25 11:40:21 via ebay? :p Jul 25 12:03:39 'Smoke free compliance officer' has just turned up... Jul 25 12:04:03 * ScaredyCat said "be there in a minute, let me finish this ciggie" Jul 25 12:05:11 what the heck is a smoke free compliance manager Jul 25 12:06:18 "Smoke free", does that mean you should be able to smoke freely? Jul 25 12:06:49 free yuor smoke Jul 25 12:07:26 s/yuor/your/ Jul 25 12:07:27 Dmitry_Platonov meant: free your smoke Jul 25 12:08:33 ScaredyCat: in england by any chance? Jul 25 12:08:43 yah.. Jul 25 12:08:53 ScaredyCat: we used to it all in Scotland Jul 25 12:11:25 * SpeedEvil points at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups Scotland Jul 25 12:15:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page]] [[Removal_of_free_space]] [[Stylus_mount]] [[Ambient_light_sensor]] [[Square_case]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Wishlist:Extension_Framework]] [[Wish_List]] Jul 25 12:17:32 SpeedEvil: Ive been reminding you for months that you live just north of me :-) Jul 25 12:18:19 Where are you again? Edin? Jul 25 12:22:14 SpeedEvil: work in Edin, live in West Lothian Jul 25 12:24:19 Ah Jul 25 12:29:06 ~lart smdk2440 Jul 25 12:29:06 * apt_ squishes smdk2440 like a bug Jul 25 12:29:07 * mokobot whips out his power stapler and staples smdk2440's foot to the floor Jul 25 12:30:34 can someone kill that mokobot? Jul 25 12:31:19 ~lart mokobot Jul 25 12:31:20 * apt_ whips out a shotgun, trudges over to mokobot, and goes postal Jul 25 12:31:20 * mokobot accelerates a free AOL cd to 50,000 rpm and lets dmitry_platonov feel it Jul 25 12:31:45 it hurts Jul 25 12:32:37 moko moko moko moko moko moko moko moko moko moko moko moko mushroom mushroom Jul 25 12:33:00 'shrooms? where? where? Jul 25 12:33:15 ovr there... on the stair... Jul 25 12:35:24 * SpeedEvil did that once, with a dremel. Jul 25 12:35:43 Ended up with shards of CD embedded 1cm deep in plasterboard. Jul 25 12:36:47 * ScaredyCat pokes america with a stick Jul 25 12:36:48 * mokobot mugs Jason1 for his neo and gives it to ScaredyCat Jul 25 12:36:56 :D Jul 25 12:37:08 il est arrive? Jul 25 12:37:14 Drum roll please..... Jul 25 12:37:19 [rt.internal.openmoko.org #1820] Order shipped: OpenMoko direct order Jul 25 12:37:26 w00t Jul 25 12:37:33 [Wild Applause] Jul 25 12:37:35 Meh. Jul 25 12:37:39 update wiki update wiki update wiki update wiki Jul 25 12:37:47 tracking number ? Jul 25 12:37:54 * Stephmw does the moko dance Jul 25 12:38:02 Best thing, it shipped YESTERDAY!!!! It will be delivered TODAY!!!!!! Jul 25 12:38:16 hah, you wish Jul 25 12:38:20 is it still in memphis ? Jul 25 12:38:22 1Z5VX0380150731095 Jul 25 12:38:43 believe it, baby Jul 25 12:39:12 out for delivery Jul 25 12:39:28 you do realise that 341 people just tracked it :) Jul 25 12:39:47 hardly Jul 25 12:39:52 there's at least two bots here Jul 25 12:39:56 so 339 people ;) Jul 25 12:40:03 I didn't bother Jul 25 12:40:12 LOL. I am sooooo excited. Jul 25 12:40:29 naa, they're tracing it too Jul 25 12:40:34 now UPS will hold it back because of the huge interest in the tracking Jul 25 12:40:40 Just got out of bed 15 minutes ago, check my email, and have a have from them at 05:58am Jul 25 12:40:59 they must assume it's a bomb now and take it back for proper inspection (ie: take apart) Jul 25 12:41:13 blindcoder: that would be my luck Jul 25 12:41:15 * ScaredyCat suggest that ups not deliver that package of bomb mkaing equipment to Jason1 Jul 25 12:41:20 I thought they just destroyed suspect packages these days? Jul 25 12:41:26 Jason1: are you in IL? Jul 25 12:41:36 Bedford Jul 25 12:41:39 SpeedEvil: Yeah, southwest suburbs Jul 25 12:42:03 * SpeedEvil clicks on the 'redirect package' link. Jul 25 12:42:07 did america steal ALL town names from the uk ? Jul 25 12:42:19 ScaredyCat: probably :) Jul 25 12:42:22 ScaredyCat: yup Jul 25 12:42:31 ScaredyCat: and not just from the UK Jul 25 12:42:40 ScaredyCat: there's a Moscow as well Jul 25 12:42:50 Anybody else get shipping confirmation yet? Jul 25 12:42:58 http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hall/8701/townname.htm Jul 25 12:43:03 Canada has a Dildo. I'm unsure where they got that from. Jul 25 12:43:19 FYI: [rt.internal.openmoko.org #1820] Resolved: OpenMoko direct order Jul 25 12:43:19 According to our records, your request has been resolved. If you have any Jul 25 12:43:19 further questions or concerns, please respond to this message. Jul 25 12:43:27 * ScaredyCat wants to live in Monkey's Eyebrow,AZ Jul 25 12:44:44 Picture of me w/ my new Neo: http://www.chooseopen.com/gollum-OpenMoko.jpg Jul 25 12:44:52 * aloril wonders if anything like this is available outside UK: http://www.usabilityexchange.com/phoneanything/vptest.htm Jul 25 12:45:10 * aloril guesses you can ring to that service only inside UK Jul 25 12:46:24 in sort: "web-over-phone" ie.. you ring to certain phone number and it will read to you web page(s) and you can follow links, fill forms and submit them, etc.. Jul 25 12:46:46 0870 number !! Jul 25 12:47:04 yeah, I guess that means its UK only? Jul 25 12:47:20 its meant for blind persons ;-) Jul 25 12:47:33 http://www.saynoto0870.com/ Jul 25 12:50:20 some 0870 numbers work as +44870 from non-uk Jul 25 12:50:33 hi Jul 25 12:51:54 cjb_ie: Yeah, at a lot greater price Jul 25 12:53:02 well, what do you expect, it's an international call then Jul 25 12:53:31 well guys, I gotta go to work. My package is being delivered there. I will be back here once the UPS man arrives! Jul 25 12:53:44 heh heh Jul 25 12:54:14 cjb_ie: well, this number doesn't work it seems Jul 25 12:54:21 Jason1: cool! Jul 25 12:55:32 (+448702220000) Jul 25 12:59:53 Good luck! Jul 25 13:00:17 * aloril guesses web-over-phone service should be quite 'easy' to implement using Asterisk Jul 25 13:00:45 Doing it is trivial. Jul 25 13:00:54 Making it actually work well is decidedly not. Jul 25 13:01:05 right, thus '' ;-) Jul 25 13:01:08 being arsed to to it is even harder Jul 25 13:01:12 Having a human on the end could help lots. Jul 25 13:01:20 One of the possible apps for OLPC. Jul 25 13:01:34 slave googlers? Jul 25 13:01:38 Pretty much. Jul 25 13:01:52 A) dollar a day in factory. Jul 25 13:02:06 well.. didn't get chance to test, but description sounds like it could be used to for example fetch wikipedia article or do google search or check latest news Jul 25 13:02:32 B) 25c/hour for easy work that can be done after-school. Jul 25 13:02:49 And help with english too. Jul 25 13:03:40 woot, my order has been shipped Jul 25 13:03:49 poor order :) Jul 25 13:03:54 lol Jul 25 13:03:55 my bad Jul 25 13:03:56 * hhf423 is very envious of raynet Jul 25 13:04:01 i was too quick Jul 25 13:04:18 argh Jul 25 13:04:27 * hhf423 takes all his envy back :-) Jul 25 13:04:47 why why would someone send their shipping confirmation to the mailinglist, had to check the ticket number to realise it wasnt mine Jul 25 13:05:10 and for a second or two i was SOOOO happy Jul 25 13:05:28 you have UPS tracking number? Jul 25 13:06:47 ynezz: no, false alarm Jul 25 13:06:49 *sigh* Jul 25 13:07:45 ah, it seems #1820 have the neo at home already :) Jul 25 13:07:48 cool Jul 25 13:07:53 jason1 Jul 25 13:11:29 ynezz: only shipped Jul 25 13:11:47 i hope postal service loses that package Jul 25 13:11:52 :) Jul 25 13:11:53 for getting my hopes up Jul 25 13:12:18 it could happen even with UPS? Jul 25 13:12:40 * raynet hacks in to UPS systems Jul 25 13:12:40 sprinkle some dust on it Jul 25 13:12:43 white dust Jul 25 13:12:48 UPS sucks ass Jul 25 13:13:43 I've never had any problems with them (if I don't take price into account) Jul 25 13:13:47 hah, i am not the onlyone who thought FIC had confirmed of their neo shipping Jul 25 13:14:35 * Kero realized 1820 was not 1844 before reading the post :) Jul 25 13:15:21 he should have used reply instead of copy-paste so there would have been easier to see it wasnt "real" Jul 25 13:15:30 mmm Jul 25 13:15:45 besides, I'm not USA, so I'll have to wait a day :) Jul 25 13:15:50 ***SPAM*** geosynchronous tomato Jul 25 13:15:53 * ScaredyCat lols Jul 25 13:16:34 would spam assassin be assassinated by a geosynchrous killer tomato? Jul 25 13:16:41 s/a day/until another/ Jul 25 13:16:52 day Jul 25 13:17:04 aye Jul 25 13:17:07 well, it might... Jul 25 13:17:23 and another, since the shipping is over longer distance Jul 25 13:17:33 yes... Jul 25 13:17:35 and weekend comes, so 2 more days Jul 25 13:17:57 so you won get it until monday... at best Jul 25 13:18:02 * Kero won't be home to play with the Neo this weekend anyway Jul 25 13:18:16 still... Jul 25 13:18:17 not the whole weekend, at least Jul 25 13:18:36 * XorA dances with his collection of Neos Jul 25 13:18:38 they appear to be aiming for an order to delivery time of less than a month Jul 25 13:18:53 I don't get the forum vs lists thread Jul 25 13:18:59 ScaredyCat: this is reminiscent of the old sinclair days Jul 25 13:19:18 :SD Jul 25 13:19:22 ynezz: i got it in multiple copies :)) Jul 25 13:19:43 the list is a bit buggered with dupes Jul 25 13:19:46 each message was repeated 4-8 times Jul 25 13:19:52 only from google Jul 25 13:19:58 evil gmail Jul 25 13:20:00 :p Jul 25 13:20:01 gmail seems buggy Jul 25 13:20:03 noh, there we messages not from google too Jul 25 13:20:07 amateurs Jul 25 13:20:16 raynet: those are gmail for your domain Jul 25 13:20:23 aaah Jul 25 13:20:24 you can configure mailman to filter such dupes Jul 25 13:20:25 that explains Jul 25 13:20:37 maybe we should let admin know via bugzilla Jul 25 13:20:53 maybe provide config patch lol Jul 25 13:20:56 lol Jul 25 13:21:14 someone said that the openmoko mailserver was acting slightly out of RFC Jul 25 13:21:34 half of the net breaks rfc822 Jul 25 13:21:38 which causes gmail to resend the message Jul 25 13:21:38 mostly it's the spammers fault Jul 25 13:21:58 * ScaredyCat blames aliens Jul 25 13:22:40 first spam landed in roswell Jul 25 13:23:45 i thought ancient egypt Jul 25 13:29:49 ah, i must remember to order a toolkit so i can connect my neo to my car Jul 25 13:30:03 wanna see my OBD-II data in realtime Jul 25 13:30:16 roflmao Jul 25 13:30:26 odbII is *not* realtime Jul 25 13:30:36 there are some realtime streams there Jul 25 13:30:58 it's nly updated about once a second (max) Jul 25 13:31:05 that is realtime Jul 25 13:31:15 no it's not Jul 25 13:31:15 for human consumption, that is realtime, yes Jul 25 13:31:16 just like gps Jul 25 13:31:46 realtime has no maximum time interval requirement, even data points that come once a year can be realtime Jul 25 13:32:07 realtime sort of suggest continous data Jul 25 13:32:17 well, it is Jul 25 13:32:30 just is sampled every 1 sec Jul 25 13:32:31 nearly ALL data out there really is discrete Jul 25 13:32:36 realtime in the digital domain? Jul 25 13:32:45 how that is different from every 0.1sec or every 0.0000001 sec Jul 25 13:32:50 if you want to believe that 1 update a second is realtime, you believe it.. just remember - it's not Jul 25 13:33:07 raynet: it isnt, neither is true realtime Jul 25 13:34:40 (tho some would define realtime as guaranteed to be fast enough for the application in question, i guess) Jul 25 13:34:50 as it should Jul 25 13:34:54 buz: I'm one of those. Jul 25 13:35:12 its quite sensible, imho Jul 25 13:35:12 realtime = bound latency Jul 25 13:35:57 picking up a phone call is (soft) realtime. Jul 25 13:35:58 I guess 1 sec is a bit laggy for speed etc Jul 25 13:36:03 you have ten seconds or so :) Jul 25 13:36:26 keesj: actually it's not, many analog speedometers have worse lag than that Jul 25 13:37:06 probably true Jul 25 13:37:13 projecting speed onto the windshield would be neat Jul 25 13:37:26 you can Jul 25 13:37:32 in a corvette, yes Jul 25 13:37:47 there was a review of some bluetooth gps thing that you can fit Jul 25 13:37:49 simple Jul 25 13:38:08 projecting is the hard part, not gathering the data Jul 25 13:38:31 I just said you can buy it now Jul 25 13:38:38 a little device.. Jul 25 13:38:45 givs gps too iirc Jul 25 13:38:55 name? Jul 25 13:39:03 roh: ping Jul 25 13:39:30 http://www.digitalreviews.net/reviews/navigation/globaltop-bluetooth-hud-gps-hg-100-speed-meter-reviewed-pa.html Jul 25 13:40:23 scaredycat: i've it seen on the cebit 07 Jul 25 13:40:40 ideally i'd want it to do gps as well Jul 25 13:40:45 or rather navigation display Jul 25 13:41:16 *sigh* only 3 digits, what if i wanna drive faster than 999mph Jul 25 13:41:16 * squalyl`afk`eat happy, openmoko tree building again Jul 25 13:41:25 I don't know how good python is runnint on openmoko, but the maemo has a nice looking OBD-II displayer http://www.maemo-apps.org/content/show.php/Carman?content=55136 Jul 25 13:41:38 100$ seems cheap Jul 25 13:42:43 keesj: the carman people want to have it on the neo as well :) Jul 25 13:43:44 k-s rulez bigtime ! Jul 25 13:44:11 just need to add view for acceleration sensors Jul 25 13:44:43 mhh the one there works with plain leds Jul 25 13:44:50 raynet: are angles also supported? Jul 25 13:44:53 maybe you could convince neo to do it, too? Jul 25 13:45:09 but probably not bright enough Jul 25 13:45:47 keesj: dunno, havent read yet how the sensors work Jul 25 13:48:52 raynet: check out the entry on the wiki, SpeedEvil spent a good while putting the accelerometer info up there Jul 25 14:04:39 snif cant find where packages gets included in the rootfs :( Jul 25 14:06:47 squalyl: Tried task-openmoko.bb already? Jul 25 14:07:23 no, this may be what i'm searching Jul 25 14:09:56 yes Jul 25 14:09:58 so Jul 25 14:10:23 if I want to include my package, I must add it to DISTRO_EXTRA_RDEPENDS in build/conf/local.conf Jul 25 14:11:25 openmoko: 03stefan * r2390 10/trunk/oe/packages/mtd/ (11 files in 2 dirs): * Copy over all mtd-utils stuff from OE.dev. Fixes #658 Jul 25 14:12:48 what about using distcc to speed up openmoko build? :D Jul 25 14:13:17 squalyl: People use it for generix OE already. Jul 25 14:13:30 squalyl: Search on the openembedded.org website Jul 25 14:13:30 ok :) Jul 25 14:15:42 Please don't let this man torture me. Jul 25 14:15:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[User:Samon007]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Ede]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[User_talk:Emdete]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Duesseldorf]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Duesseldorf]] [[Wishlist:ExpansionSpacer]] and other changes Jul 25 14:16:19 Wow they're shipping? Jul 25 14:18:47 dtx: And now we have nothing to talk about... Jul 25 14:18:58 ...at least until boxes start to arrive. Jul 25 14:23:31 * ewon wants a gp2x Jul 25 14:23:58 ewon: in black and silver, or white and orange? Jul 25 14:24:03 anyone reckon the GTA02 would be powerful enough to run a megadrive / genesis emu Jul 25 14:24:16 cjb_ie: get out Jul 25 14:25:15 I have a gp2x Jul 25 14:25:28 * empty_mind_ to wants gp2x Jul 25 14:25:40 I have 3 Jul 25 14:26:42 3 GP2Xs that is Jul 25 14:26:49 they dont ship gp2x in my country Jul 25 14:27:02 What country is that and why? Jul 25 14:27:03 s/in/to Jul 25 14:27:06 India Jul 25 14:27:22 India is not listed in the shipping preferences Jul 25 14:27:25 You can't special order it or anything? Jul 25 14:27:36 BOOYAH Jul 25 14:28:08 Oh wait, no I only have 1 GP2X and 3 Zaurus SLC-1000 Jul 25 14:29:13 hey raster Jul 25 14:29:37 BTW, I'm sure GTA02 will be powerful enough to run Genesis emu if its optimized for ARM Jul 25 14:29:52 koen: moo Jul 25 14:29:54 dtx: GTA02 will outclass gp2x Jul 25 14:29:55 I was running emulators on my old P2-300 Jul 25 14:29:58 raster: I bet you already saw http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/07/24/iphone-like-virtual-keyboard-for-n800/ Jul 25 14:30:03 P2-200 I mean Jul 25 14:30:06 dtx, what do you do with 3 akitas? Jul 25 14:30:08 dtx: and picodriver is cool on gp2x Jul 25 14:30:12 koen: yup Jul 25 14:30:14 dtx, interested in a 4th? Jul 25 14:30:15 :) Jul 25 14:30:16 koen: seen it running Jul 25 14:30:30 koen: i actually have some ideas for a smaller kbd for the moko Jul 25 14:30:37 that might be a bit harder to learn Jul 25 14:30:42 koen: liked it? :-) Jul 25 14:30:43 but should make much better use of space Jul 25 14:30:47 and still be driven by thumbs Jul 25 14:30:59 k-s[work]: very much Jul 25 14:31:16 koen: you should have pavel to strip it to its need Jul 25 14:31:28 dcordes: I had a project were I used them to record data from multiple devices out in the field Jul 25 14:31:33 koen: he wanted a nice keyboard these days Jul 25 14:31:39 hiho Jul 25 14:32:19 I got the GP2Xs because they are cheaper and therefore easier to pitch to customers, but we let the project stagnate and I haven't ported my software over to it Jul 25 14:32:25 yet Jul 25 14:32:27 when this phone will be available to public ? Jul 25 14:32:27 roch: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 25 14:32:57 should have a vkbd that makes use of big buttons for "hit detection Jul 25 14:32:59 with thumbs Jul 25 14:33:00 BUT Jul 25 14:33:02 BTW, I didn't think the Neo is more powerful than GP2X, 2X is dual processor I believe Jul 25 14:33:05 also makes use of sliding Jul 25 14:33:08 for example Jul 25 14:33:12 u have a big key] Jul 25 14:33:58 +---+ Jul 25 14:33:58 | A | Jul 25 14:33:58 |DEB| Jul 25 14:33:58 | C | Jul 25 14:33:58 +---+ Jul 25 14:34:06 you press your thumb down Jul 25 14:34:09 and just release Jul 25 14:34:12 some kind of touch-screen T9 could work Jul 25 14:34:13 you get "E" Jul 25 14:34:33 press and SLIDE thumb up, then release - you get "A" Jul 25 14:34:38 drag right - you get B Jul 25 14:34:41 drag down - u get C Jul 25 14:34:45 left - D Jul 25 14:34:48 for example Jul 25 14:35:00 raster: have you tried typing with my vkbd on your n800? with type hinting (to enlarge click area) and correction, it would rock Jul 25 14:35:02 i am unsure of if this will work well Jul 25 14:35:10 but it is bett than t9 Jul 25 14:35:10 any new shipping info? Jul 25 14:35:13 but surely doesn't fit openmoko screen Jul 25 14:35:14 add in auto-prediction Jul 25 14:35:37 k-s[WORK]: no- haven't :( Jul 25 14:35:40 it won't fit Jul 25 14:35:42 openmoko: 03stefan * r2391 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01.inc: Jul 25 14:35:42 openmoko: * Use ${OBJCOPY} instead of hardcoded arm-linux-objcopy. Patch from Cesar Jul 25 14:35:42 openmoko: Eduardo Barros closes #647. Thanks. Jul 25 14:35:42 openmoko: (This is already in OE.dev so no problem with the sync) Jul 25 14:35:50 for the n800 that kbd it good Jul 25 14:35:55 except it uses a tonne of screen space Jul 25 14:35:56 how is the merge with OE going on? Jul 25 14:36:00 mmuch less space for text/apps Jul 25 14:36:03 koen: any idea if newer hardware will have screen not "inset"? that looses a bit of touch area Jul 25 14:36:46 yeah Jul 25 14:36:48 the inset sucks Jul 25 14:36:54 the n800 is much better there Jul 25 14:36:54 raster: yes, but you can type really fast, so it's good :-) Jul 25 14:36:57 though it sstill inset Jul 25 14:37:04 k-s[WORK]: yeah - thats good Jul 25 14:37:12 i want to try this idea of press+drag Jul 25 14:37:13 dcordes: Mostly done. But besides the sync we also do some other stuff at the same time. Jul 25 14:37:21 hi anyone here able to confirm if my order is still 'valid'? Jul 25 14:37:22 maybe just have 4 directions Jul 25 14:37:28 k-s[WORK]: no idea Jul 25 14:37:38 up, down, left, right drag Jul 25 14:37:42 and no drag == auto-guess Jul 25 14:37:47 based on dictionary match Jul 25 14:37:56 bbl Jul 25 14:37:58 stefan_schmidt, good to hear ^^ I believe you are very busy - keep up the good work Jul 25 14:38:02 so u can do 4 keys per button Jul 25 14:38:03 raster, koen: maybe you could push a plain (non-inset) screen Jul 25 14:38:26 k-s[WORK]: have u seen the new irivier mp3 players? Jul 25 14:38:28 raster: great idea Jul 25 14:38:31 dcordes: ATM it's ok. August will be hard. Jul 25 14:38:34 raster: no, I haven't Jul 25 14:39:09 raster: read this? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Spell_weaving Jul 25 14:39:10 stefan_schmidt, because of phase2 preparation? Jul 25 14:39:17 What is that accessibility program where you just keep zooming in on the correct letters which form dictionary words on the right side Jul 25 14:39:29 to replace typing Jul 25 14:39:43 aloril: nup. wiki is big Jul 25 14:39:43 :) Jul 25 14:39:45 predictive text? Jul 25 14:39:51 dcordes: No, getting stuff for P1 owners into shape. Jul 25 14:40:03 dtx: dasher? Jul 25 14:40:07 bingo Jul 25 14:40:10 thats the one Jul 25 14:40:12 dcordes: I don't work on P2 stuff atm Jul 25 14:40:21 Would the screen be too small for that Jul 25 14:40:34 multitouch relies on multiple touch sensor hw Jul 25 14:40:39 i inderstand that isnt cheap Jul 25 14:40:46 ALSO its actually kind of hard to do in X Jul 25 14:40:52 MPX Jul 25 14:40:55 i know Jul 25 14:41:04 and it requires apps specifically be modified for it Jul 25 14:41:13 as the paradigm in x has always been just 1 core pointer Jul 25 14:41:13 Yeah, but that isn't really a surprise Jul 25 14:41:20 yay Jul 25 14:41:29 openmoko-rssreader works with webkit: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/41276146a3d53af5741d119a5c6f2b59.png Jul 25 14:41:32 raster: yeah, but I believe that even single touch allows fast input (as shorthand in paper world demonstrates) Jul 25 14:41:33 i know a lot of my own code will be really scrwwed with 2 pointers Jul 25 14:41:35 as it ASSUMES 1 Jul 25 14:41:37 (that's on an ipaq, not a nea) Jul 25 14:41:43 it needs work Jul 25 14:42:33 raster what projects are you involved with? Jul 25 14:42:46 e Jul 25 14:43:20 I see Jul 25 14:43:34 I though I've seen your nick somewhere Jul 25 14:43:52 i hang around like a bad smell Jul 25 14:43:53 :) Jul 25 14:44:11 hmm Jul 25 14:44:14 ahahah Jul 25 14:44:21 Of course, raster is a pretty common term in CS anyways Jul 25 14:44:22 weaving thing doesnt look practicalk for a screen the size a phone has Jul 25 14:44:23 raster: are you planning on porting & developing e17 for openmoko? Jul 25 14:44:26 or complex Jul 25 14:44:32 koen: are you paying someone to do webkit dev? Jul 25 14:44:36 (200wpm possible with shorthand) Jul 25 14:44:54 k-s[WORK]: zecke is doing a google SoC on webkit Jul 25 14:44:54 guaqua: is the sky blue? do i like beer? Jul 25 14:44:56 k-s[WORK]: Google pays zecke for the webkit gtk stuff. :) Jul 25 14:45:03 raster: good :) Jul 25 14:45:13 k-s[WORK]: and colabora pays alp to work on it as well Jul 25 14:45:15 koen: webkit + gtk? Jul 25 14:45:20 yes Jul 25 14:45:20 raster: actually the best news since i found this project :) Jul 25 14:45:39 already added some start of support Jul 25 14:45:46 raster: I'd like to write webkit + efl :-) Jul 25 14:45:46 a layotu moduel that forces windows to be "fullscreen" Jul 25 14:45:52 and dialgos always to be centered Jul 25 14:46:00 (and main windows to be borderless) Jul 25 14:46:18 started moving config dialogs into pluggable moduels so specific config dialogs can replace them for screen space limited devices Jul 25 14:46:20 etc. Jul 25 14:46:26 raster: that layout mode sucks for FM windows! I cannot close them Jul 25 14:46:29 k-s[WORK]: go for it - though you will have some trouble Jul 25 14:46:40 1. it seems to be built on an immediate rendering model Jul 25 14:46:40 what is openmoko cpu comparable to ? Jul 25 14:46:52 that means draw line, paste text,m draw box, paste bitmap etc. Jul 25 14:46:55 raster: I know, just trying to get it approved (at least analysis of how easy/hard would be) Jul 25 14:46:57 raster: limited screen size is problem, but still I believe decent speed is possible with suitable 'system' Jul 25 14:47:18 aloril: it is a limitation - need to work within it Jul 25 14:47:32 also if the input mechanism is TOO strange - it will be hard to learn and peole just will hate it Jul 25 14:47:39 no matter how "fast" it is ONCE you learn it Jul 25 14:47:42 learn from dvborak Jul 25 14:47:44 dvorak Jul 25 14:47:47 raster: ah, I don't mean to just use it as a Evas_Smart, but draw to another buffer and use it as EFL component, first class, like Image Jul 25 14:47:51 it may be faster than qwerty Jul 25 14:47:52 but it failed Jul 25 14:47:59 you need something that is easy to pick up Jul 25 14:48:02 obvious to learn Jul 25 14:48:05 doesnt need "training" Jul 25 14:48:07 Today I got at lidl for 14.99 (the offer started on monday) a 80cm satellite dish. Jul 25 14:48:11 (UK) Jul 25 14:48:13 AND is usable and fast Jul 25 14:48:27 k-s[WORK]: oh sure - that;s possible Jul 25 14:48:35 Planning on using for GPS experiments, and later long distance wifi Jul 25 14:48:43 k-s[WORK]: i want to add proper pluggable moduels for "first class objects" Jul 25 14:48:52 like evas_image, rect, poly, line etc. Jul 25 14:48:53 SpeedEvil: nice Jul 25 14:48:59 80cm Jul 25 14:49:06 so evas's basic object types can be extended by pluggable modules Jul 25 14:49:18 I've seen point to point wifi stuff that uses sat dishes alright Jul 25 14:49:19 Insanely enough, they are not selling satellite recievers, so they are going slowly :) Jul 25 14:49:20 raster: probably you'll need jose work to abstract render primitives out of canvas Jul 25 14:49:39 k-s[WORK]: did u see the recent mails on that? Jul 25 14:49:56 vincent is intending to split that out Jul 25 14:50:41 Is there graffitti support? Jul 25 14:50:58 dtx: no. Jul 25 14:51:12 dtx: practically none of the software is written yet. Jul 25 14:51:35 dtx: basic features are being worked on before nice stuff like alternate input systems generally. Jul 25 14:51:58 yeah Jul 25 14:52:04 like being able to make and recieve phone calls Jul 25 14:52:05 :) Jul 25 14:52:06 raster: yes, making it fast and easy to start is hard thing: it might be that fastest method will always remain 'hidden advanced user option' Jul 25 14:52:19 predicting the words the user is going to write is the most important thing in my books Jul 25 14:52:31 no matter what the input method is, it's still slow Jul 25 14:52:35 al sure- in the future i think something like the openmoko phone and anything else truly open can provide LOTS of input systems Jul 25 14:52:37 I see Harald has another gpl-violations win Jul 25 14:52:42 choose the one you like best Jul 25 14:52:55 because its open you can even help improve the one you like Jul 25 14:52:59 or write a new one Jul 25 14:53:01 noticed that one too, congrats to harald :) Jul 25 14:53:10 as long as there is space to ship lots of them - lots can come on by default Jul 25 14:53:12 Or implement patented ones for your own use. Jul 25 14:53:14 they can also be added by packages later Jul 25 14:53:16 BUT Jul 25 14:53:23 in the end the DEFAULT will need to be a compromise Jul 25 14:53:26 between "easy to learn" Jul 25 14:53:34 "easy and fast to use" Jul 25 14:53:46 and probably will need to make sure it doesnt violate patents Jul 25 14:53:46 * aloril agrees Jul 25 14:53:59 qwerty keyboard is the safest chocie Jul 25 14:54:04 raster, yeah Jul 25 14:54:09 guaqua: you cant fit a qwerty on the screen Jul 25 14:54:12 thats the bigt problem Jul 25 14:54:16 well not fit AND use thumbs Jul 25 14:54:18 or fingers Jul 25 14:54:24 well, at least not with being able to actually read it Jul 25 14:54:30 patents are a bitch; luckily joe random developer of _addon_ input systems can probably pretty much ignore them Jul 25 14:54:34 so i believ the default will be a "somewhere in between" thing Jul 25 14:54:35 raster: finger use is a problem, yes Jul 25 14:54:48 mjr: bingo Jul 25 14:55:04 mjr: so if joe dev wasnts to add in their own package repo Jul 25 14:55:13 and then everyone3 can just download his input system package Jul 25 14:55:14 great! Jul 25 14:55:18 ~can i has a tracking number Jul 25 14:55:19 No. Jul 25 14:55:37 the os should make it trivial to add new package repositories Jul 25 14:55:42 Resisting urge to mess with bots.... Jul 25 14:55:45 hopefulyl at the clikc of a few buttons Jul 25 14:55:46 eg Jul 25 14:55:52 browser openmoko.net Jul 25 14:56:04 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 25 14:56:10 some special on-line pge or an app that collects information from a central on-line "list" of repositories Jul 25 14:56:17 and then just select it to add to your list Jul 25 14:56:25 oops... wrong x Jul 25 14:56:30 I had my cc company call me about a potentially nefarious charge to my card for 309 (the cost of the neo + shipping) I said it was OK, but now the charge never made it through ARRGG!! Jul 25 14:56:58 radiorental: yeah, and it sucks that you can't pre-authorise a charge Jul 25 14:57:37 I believe you can by posting your full credit card info on here, and then typing '/me pays for moko.' Jul 25 14:57:39 hm, 'cause FIC is so suspicious a company? Jul 25 14:58:03 FIC Jul 25 14:58:05 s/moko/Neo/ Jul 25 14:58:05 dtx meant: I believe you can by posting your full credit card info on here, and then typing '/me pays for Neo.' Jul 25 14:58:08 sounds like a bunch of gansters Jul 25 14:58:11 sounds like a bunch of gangsters Jul 25 14:58:12 :) Jul 25 14:58:43 "Those FICcing bastards" Jul 25 14:58:51 k-s[WORK]: http://www.iriver.com/product/p_detail.asp?pidx=82 Jul 25 14:59:22 fwiw I'm working on an improved finger input method, the full spec should be out by friday.. here's a page on the finger menu instance http://web.mac.com/pauric_ocallaghan/openmoko_fingernav.jpg Jul 25 14:59:26 http://www.iriver.com/product/p_detail.asp?pidx=78 Jul 25 14:59:32 those irivers are COOL Jul 25 14:59:39 tyhe screen is not touch Jul 25 14:59:46 but its glossy and slightly rounded out Jul 25 14:59:52 if u press the screne it pushes in with a click Jul 25 14:59:56 mmh, raster Jul 25 15:00:02 its got button actuators BEHIND the screen Jul 25 15:00:06 so it feels clicky Jul 25 15:00:16 also the S10 is tiiiiiny Jul 25 15:00:22 hena: burrp Jul 25 15:00:24 You can only do 4 or so buttons that way though Jul 25 15:00:31 i know Jul 25 15:00:36 BUT Jul 25 15:00:40 if u add a touch screen Jul 25 15:00:52 AND you now need to actually PRESS the screen in to do a CLICK Jul 25 15:00:54 you can do Jul 25 15:00:59 1. mouse moves WITHOUT dragging Jul 25 15:01:12 (moving the finger just moves the mouse - so to speak - no clicks) Jul 25 15:01:15 Problem is the screen is quite heavy. Jul 25 15:01:20 u need to actuall press it down to get a click Jul 25 15:01:25 hjmm Jul 25 15:01:26 And mounting it on buttons is not trivial. Jul 25 15:01:32 it didnt feel that heavy when i played with it Jul 25 15:01:42 sure - moutnign them is not easy Jul 25 15:01:56 but it'd give a lot more room for input Jul 25 15:02:11 as you basically have 2 levels of "click" Jul 25 15:02:12 The touchscreen in the neo prolly weighs 40g. Jul 25 15:02:16 currently u have only 1 Jul 25 15:02:37 Drop it - at 100g, and you need to hold 4Kg of force. Jul 25 15:02:57 Without the mounting fracturing. Jul 25 15:03:32 if you make the buttons lighter u need less force Jul 25 15:03:38 err - no. Jul 25 15:03:40 mounting is an issue Jul 25 15:04:01 The mounting has to hold the force and distribute it evenly over the LCD when it's dropped. Jul 25 15:04:09 This is quite hard. Jul 25 15:04:19 dunno abotu the exact mechanics Jul 25 15:04:20 but yes Jul 25 15:04:22 Also, you now have a gap round the screen, which needs sealed. Jul 25 15:04:26 a press anywhere has to distribute evenly Jul 25 15:04:44 and a four way scroll widget, http://web.mac.com/pauric_ocallaghan/openmoko_fingernav_scroll.jpg does anyone know if there's someone else working on improving the finger wheel widget? Jul 25 15:04:50 iriver seem to have managed it Jul 25 15:05:03 it's a bit harder with a touchscreen. Jul 25 15:05:26 It's not impossible. It adds weight, ... Jul 25 15:05:37 sure Jul 25 15:05:39 understood Jul 25 15:05:46 and adds more mechanical parts that can break Jul 25 15:05:56 which i think is more of a concern Jul 25 15:06:37 The ideal would be to delete the touchscreen membrane and add a vibrator to move the screen. Jul 25 15:06:55 You then read the touch point by reading the forces on the display. Jul 25 15:07:22 There are vandal resistant displays that do this. Jul 25 15:07:24 and how do u intend to read the forces? :) Jul 25 15:07:43 There are off-the-shelf solutions - though again added expense. Jul 25 15:07:47 Strain guages, ... Jul 25 15:08:00 Completely off-topic: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070724-intel-open-sources-multicore-programming-tool.html Jul 25 15:08:39 So did the neos ship out today the 25th or yesterday the 24th (the caption says 24, but the P1 owners page says 25) Jul 25 15:08:52 different dates for US vs non-US shipping Jul 25 15:08:53 iirc Jul 25 15:09:27 ewon: for the US people Jul 25 15:09:42 2 US people report ship date as the 25th Jul 25 15:09:50 SpeedEvil: depends on cost. buttons are off-the-shelf parts too Jul 25 15:09:57 plentiful and cheap Jul 25 15:10:23 Well, yes. Jul 25 15:10:42 The force-monitoring solution could have multiple benefits though. Jul 25 15:11:10 it could Jul 25 15:11:12 Scratchproof display as you can now use a diamond-faced display. Jul 25 15:11:14 like how much force Jul 25 15:11:19 Force-sensitive. Jul 25 15:11:28 oh, the rss+webkit thingie looks sweet! Jul 25 15:11:30 or use: Jul 25 15:11:32 http://www.shieldzone.com/?gclid=COeRh-7lpI0CFQaNbgodJ1N_0w Jul 25 15:11:59 but having a flush screen Jul 25 15:12:01 not inset Jul 25 15:12:15 with a tough protective layer lets you make a sexier design Jul 25 15:12:32 The problem is. Jul 25 15:12:52 REsistive touchscreens are thin plastic films. Jul 25 15:12:57 You can't really hard-coat it. Jul 25 15:13:23 If you can go to glass, then daiamond-coated glass is readily available. Jul 25 15:13:39 This is a phone that you can put in your pocket with keys. Jul 25 15:14:05 sure Jul 25 15:14:11 as is that invisible chield thing Jul 25 15:14:19 some composite that does a similar job Jul 25 15:14:24 Right. Jul 25 15:14:27 either way Jul 25 15:14:28 If you believe it. Jul 25 15:14:29 same resul;t Jul 25 15:14:36 shiny glossy glass-like screen surfacer Jul 25 15:14:40 maybe entire phone surface Jul 25 15:14:46 and almsot impossible to scratch Jul 25 15:15:01 so the thing stays shiny Jul 25 15:15:02 :) Jul 25 15:16:03 Are you again planning for SAW? Jul 25 15:16:15 i'd love to see the traditions toushc-screen look and feel bite the dust Jul 25 15:16:31 the biggest question i have about the openmoko: will it blend? Jul 25 15:16:40 juri_: probably Jul 25 15:16:47 the plastic is thick Jul 25 15:16:50 lots of it to blend up Jul 25 15:17:00 hello again. Just a re-post of a question I had earlier - anyone here can confirm my order is still valid? Jul 25 15:17:09 * juri_ imagines the horror of a youtube video of an OM getting put in the blender. ;) Jul 25 15:17:21 duffyd: dunno Jul 25 15:17:23 nooooo Jul 25 15:17:30 duffyd: I doubt -anyone- can confirm that, here or in 'fic' Jul 25 15:17:33 blend? Jul 25 15:17:33 OM won't blend Jul 25 15:17:34 :( Jul 25 15:17:38 IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! Jul 25 15:17:45 My Neo arrived!!!!! Jul 25 15:17:47 :) Jul 25 15:17:49 * squalyl jealous Jul 25 15:17:50 barsteward! Jul 25 15:17:52 ChooseOpen: \o/ Jul 25 15:18:05 openmoko: 03stefan * r2392 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01.inc: * Remove bashism from linux-gta01.inc (Also commited to OE.dev, no sync problem) Jul 25 15:18:05 ChooseOpen: when'd it ship? Jul 25 15:18:07 ok, was just wanting to see if it is still in the issue collector Jul 25 15:18:17 compbrain: yesterday Jul 25 15:18:24 * jeddy3 kicks ChooseOpen in the groin and steals his Neo Jul 25 15:18:26 * compbrain boggles Jul 25 15:18:39 * duffyd envies ChooseOpen Jul 25 15:18:53 grats jason1 Jul 25 15:19:06 I so excited!!! Jul 25 15:19:16 ChooseOpen: makes me wanna move to US ;-) Jul 25 15:19:19 :) Jul 25 15:19:22 bricking in 3.. 2.. 1.. Jul 25 15:19:25 jeddy3 does neo crime? ;) Jul 25 15:19:26 :) Jul 25 15:19:33 :) Jul 25 15:19:35 juri_: :D Jul 25 15:19:52 ChooseOpen: Pictures would be dandy, if you feel the itch Jul 25 15:19:52 jeddy3 - Take pics of the packaging :) Jul 25 15:19:57 HUh, Jul 25 15:20:01 ChooseOpen - Take pics of the packaging :) Jul 25 15:20:10 is it the first one? Jul 25 15:20:16 jason1 Jul 25 15:20:37 Yup, first one. Jul 25 15:20:45 congrats :) Jul 25 15:20:50 we need pics :) Jul 25 15:20:55 ScaredyCat: Yeah, it me :) Jul 25 15:21:07 oh, the working day just begun in California =) Jul 25 15:21:18 How the hell does the battery cover open???? Jul 25 15:21:25 ahhh.... fake names now eh ;) Jul 25 15:21:26 :D Jul 25 15:21:38 ScaredyCat: hehe. Jul 25 15:21:43 the battery is non-replaceable, like iphone x) Jul 25 15:21:46 updated the wiki yet ? Jul 25 15:21:51 ChooseOpen - Check "disassembling neo" ;-) Jul 25 15:21:53 inserting battery Jul 25 15:21:59 ChooseOpen: Use your fingernail carefully Jul 25 15:22:06 ah, to late Jul 25 15:22:11 who did that fingernav thing ? Jul 25 15:22:23 ChooseOpen: It will only have bootloader, no kernel, no rootfs Jul 25 15:22:26 Hi stefan_schmidt ! :) Jul 25 15:22:36 any one running a gps with maps yet? Jul 25 15:22:38 ChooseOpen: Read about DFU-Utils in the wiki to flash this Jul 25 15:22:42 hi Elrond Jul 25 15:22:50 pfft he's has to wait so long you'd expect a full working os on it Jul 25 15:22:54 * jeddy3 reprimands ChooseOpen for not updating the wiki ;) Jul 25 15:22:56 :D Jul 25 15:23:15 stefan_schmidt - Huh, no gllin shipped? Jul 25 15:23:21 stefan_schmidt: Really? Jul 25 15:23:23 http://web.mac.com/pauric_ocallaghan/openmoko_fingernav.jpg <--- Jul 25 15:23:30 who dun dat? Jul 25 15:23:48 * ScaredyCat like Jul 25 15:23:52 Elrond: not yet Jul 25 15:23:55 pauric O'callaghan I'd guess Jul 25 15:24:00 ChooseOpen: really Jul 25 15:24:07 who tf is that Jul 25 15:24:12 My first observation is htat the SIM cover sucks :) Jul 25 15:24:35 ChooseOpen: If your boot a kernel that's one of the devices they tested with software. Most should be without. Jul 25 15:24:38 pictures or it didn't happen Jul 25 15:24:41 ChooseOpen: It does indeed. Jul 25 15:25:04 ah you decided to leave them unflashed? Jul 25 15:25:07 awesome :) Jul 25 15:25:11 ScaredyCat: me dun that, work in progress Jul 25 15:25:21 * ScaredyCat like radiorental Jul 25 15:25:28 zecke: It's a developer device... Jul 25 15:25:35 implement please Jul 25 15:25:37 me not happy with two types of apps 'finger' & 'stylus' Jul 25 15:25:45 Anyway, time for food. later Jul 25 15:25:54 me spec, me not coder, me designer Jul 25 15:25:56 it seems like a good solution Jul 25 15:26:01 OK, got hte SIM and battery in :) Jul 25 15:26:11 pictures Jul 25 15:26:12 pictures Jul 25 15:26:13 pictures Jul 25 15:26:19 yeah, it should resolve a lot of the issues with the current finger widget Jul 25 15:26:20 you should be documenting this Jul 25 15:26:21 two types ok, but basic calling/addressbook/stuff needs to be finger-navigable Jul 25 15:27:00 stefan_schmidt: I like that. People could flash windows mobile, Plan9, OpenBSD if they want to. They don't have to fix up anything Jul 25 15:27:10 mjr: my suggestion will allow finger scrolling and element selection in the Styluys apps Jul 25 15:27:35 zecke - can win mobile be booted from u-boot? ;o) Jul 25 15:27:52 http://web.mac.com/pauric_ocallaghan/openmoko_fingernav_scroll.jpg Jul 25 15:28:10 Damn, I wish I would have brought my laptop to work. Jul 25 15:28:21 call yourself a geek... Jul 25 15:28:22 pfft Jul 25 15:28:40 hey, cant be a jack of all trades!! Jul 25 15:28:52 Elrond: no, but parot might... Jul 25 15:28:53 bye guys, time to get back home ! Jul 25 15:29:26 Elrond: it is like OLPC and the LinuxBIOS, M$ bricking devices because they try to install a legacy bios Jul 25 15:29:37 ChooseOpen, yeah excactly, you are supposed to be a geek? :) Jul 25 15:30:07 zecke - Huh? I don't really get you. Jul 25 15:30:39 ScaredyCat: try this on for geekyness: http://web.mac.com/pauric_ocallaghan/pauric_net/files/projects_router.htm Jul 25 15:30:42 Elrond: don't worry Jul 25 15:31:05 hardware design baby! Jul 25 15:31:12 I wasn't haveing a dig at you radiorental, it was at ChooseOpen Jul 25 15:31:20 ohh (o; Jul 25 15:31:41 I I remember tthat;;; Jul 25 15:31:54 you built it? cool Jul 25 15:32:51 now, will you be making me a wooden neo case :) Jul 25 15:33:16 i like the idea about scrolling, radiorental. Scrollbars is useless on a "pda" Jul 25 15:33:20 Anyway, getting home now. Jul 25 15:33:46 thanks, I like designing. So, if anyone has suggestions on the new Tap section of application wiki or my linked suggestions to an improved finger nav widget, I'd love to hear them - take care - pauric Jul 25 15:34:09 ScaredCat: will you be paying me? Jul 25 15:34:25 you'll be doing it for the love of your craft Jul 25 15:34:29 :) Jul 25 15:34:47 although it should be reversed...this is basically grabbing a list and dragging it Jul 25 15:34:55 thanks jeddy3 I think its pretty simple, therefore following Occams Law, its will probably be the best solution Jul 25 15:35:40 Jeddy3: thats the design, sorry, missed that point in the Gesture def. Essentially follows the iPhone flick conventions Jul 25 15:35:50 radiorental, nod Jul 25 15:35:56 its a grab not a joystick Jul 25 15:36:02 thnx! Jul 25 15:36:56 imho, scrollbars is only useful to show where you are in a scrolled list Jul 25 15:37:20 what carrier is most people in the US going to go with? Cingular Jul 25 15:37:23 ? Jul 25 15:37:33 mintee: whategver GSM carrier suits Jul 25 15:37:37 anybody GSM I suppose Jul 25 15:37:45 jeddy3: then they should implement the design on the iPhone, with an alphabetical list where the scroll bar is Jul 25 15:38:02 well, i'm just looking at the coverage maps, and well... *shrug* Jul 25 15:38:06 radiorental, haven't seen that Jul 25 15:38:12 mintee: I will be using tmob Jul 25 15:38:22 here's a tracking, there's a tracking and another moko tracking, tracking, tracking, neo tracking, tracking tracking, duck. Jul 25 15:38:57 anyone know of a GSM coverage map of LA? Jul 25 15:38:59 So do you think Occam's Razor cut schrodinger's cat in half? Jul 25 15:39:14 yeah, the other one dead, the other alive Jul 25 15:39:21 simple Jul 25 15:40:01 The way everything is. Jul 25 15:40:09 jeddy3: somewhere in this 8 min video is the example of the address book 'scrollbar' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVtlvA-yZlk Jul 25 15:40:46 ewon, here's many maps http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml Jul 25 15:41:00 radiorental, yes, i thinking tmob or cing... Jul 25 15:41:26 mintee: you can get a tmob sim card for $30 Jul 25 15:41:36 radiorental, thx Jul 25 15:41:51 radiorental, orly... that's nice. Jul 25 15:42:30 tmob 'togo' get the cheapest option (a low end nokia) and you get $25 minutes too, quite a bargain Jul 25 15:42:36 no data though Jul 25 15:42:48 dtx's razor: the simplest answer is usually the laziest answer and therefore the most preferable answer to humans. Jul 25 15:43:29 $25 minutes ? jesus... that's expensive eh :P Jul 25 15:43:39 I though razor was: the shortest answer is usually the one marketing will read and therefor approve to go in to developerment/production Jul 25 15:43:58 (o; $25 worth of minutes Jul 25 15:44:02 because they are lazy Jul 25 15:44:05 so typically i'm going to have to buy a phone to get the simcard.. right Jul 25 15:44:13 they won't just sell a freaking simcard? Jul 25 15:44:41 $100 for the sim card, $30 for the sim card with a phone - go figure Jul 25 15:45:45 hi Jul 25 15:45:48 mybad, $39: http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/Phones/Prepaid.aspx Jul 25 15:46:36 Airtime Jul 25 15:46:36 * Airtime value of $10 Jul 25 15:46:36 eh? Jul 25 15:46:46 in europe you get them for free... Jul 25 15:46:54 if you wait a couple of daya Jul 25 15:47:07 or for about 2 quid if you goto the shop Jul 25 15:47:30 yes yes yes... we know everything is better off our coast, but we just have to deal with it for the time being -USA Jul 25 15:47:38 radiorental, damn, you have to hand it to apple for nailing many nice HID concepts Jul 25 15:48:05 i'm just sayin, is all.... Jul 25 15:48:11 heh, i know... Jul 25 15:48:20 seriously, but sales out yesterday were dissapointing. People dont like the enterprise level price tag. Apple shares fell sharply yesterday Jul 25 15:48:48 what was the subject line of FUCK.... did they already charge the creditcard when i placed the order, or are they charging it at time of shipping? Jul 25 15:49:06 it's kind of 'you pay us $100 so you can pay to use our network' Jul 25 15:49:21 they take it a few days before shipping Jul 25 15:50:38 Hello Master Jul 25 15:51:15 hello moko Jul 25 15:51:31 ewanm89_laptop, no fair Jul 25 15:51:36 crap... cause i just remembered, the card i used to pay for it got stolen this past saturday, and I called and canceled it Jul 25 15:51:53 if they charged me before saturday, then all's good. otherwise.... Jul 25 15:52:00 so you need to sign up for a deal to use pre-paid :D Jul 25 15:52:10 that's the most fucked up thing i've ever seen Jul 25 15:53:00 welcome to america... now bend over for the corporations Jul 25 15:53:18 stefan_schmidt: What wiki pages discuss DFU-Utils. I cant readily find the relevant stuff Jul 25 15:53:19 mintee: first normal charges were July 21st Jul 25 15:53:38 there are enough people in the usa... you could just tell them to shove it... somone *will* offer a better deal Jul 25 15:53:47 a handful of test payments before that. Jul 25 15:54:05 Kero... heh... Time of day? I canceled my card about 7pm GMT-5 (EST) Jul 25 15:54:09 you have small hands Kero ;) Jul 25 15:54:12 FuzzyCat: easier said than done Jul 25 15:54:30 FuzzyCat: I can hold 4 CCs in one hand :) Jul 25 15:54:50 mintee: no clue. I don't get any better than http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 25 15:55:03 for example the finnish law regulating mobile networks states that the operator of the network must rent the network for service operators for a decent price Jul 25 15:55:04 there's no excuse... t-mobile offer quite good deals in europe.. the only reason they don;t in the us is because you let them get away with it... Jul 25 15:55:29 in the us - i'm guessing there's no such law Jul 25 15:55:43 so basically once you have a network, you can charge anything for the service Jul 25 15:55:44 there's a special one guaqua ... Jul 25 15:55:48 mintee: if you didn't get a Payment Received mail, start worrying Jul 25 15:55:56 "corporations must fuck te comsumer" Jul 25 15:55:57 hi Jul 25 15:56:11 * mintee starts to worry Jul 25 15:56:18 mintee: talking to William Lai could help Jul 25 15:56:43 who's that? how to? Jul 25 15:57:08 mintee: search ML for "Order related inquiries" Jul 25 15:58:21 got it, thanks... Jul 25 15:58:30 link in the topic will give a good idea methinks Jul 25 15:59:10 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch Jul 25 16:02:02 what file system does neo suports on sd card ? Jul 25 16:03:48 mintee: what ticket # ar eyou? Jul 25 16:04:09 * hozer is #2971 and hasn't heard anything yet Jul 25 16:04:10 2816 Jul 25 16:04:11 * Stephmw wonders if everyone should just add that to their nicks Jul 25 16:04:53 you should put yourself on wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 25 16:04:54 Stephmw: I'd get questions in other channels... Jul 25 16:05:29 * hozer obsessively cheks his CC again Jul 25 16:05:35 Stephmw, like this ? Jul 25 16:05:51 and jealous glances in here... Jul 25 16:05:52 haha Jul 25 16:06:05 Kero: how do you know you don't already get strange looks? Jul 25 16:06:15 whoa, apparently one person received their phone! Jul 25 16:06:54 Stephmw: I don't. but I dont need more of them :) Jul 25 16:07:13 * Stephmw gives Kero a strange look. Jul 25 16:07:21 * Kero twitches Jul 25 16:07:25 noooooooooo, no credit card activity yet Jul 25 16:07:34 Ok, i emailed orders@ and william... we'll see what happens then Jul 25 16:08:10 mintee: did you have some problem? Or just no response? Jul 25 16:08:51 ? Jul 25 16:08:51 there also is a conspicuous lack of CC activity dates beyond #2500 or so. starting at #1820, that's loads of double orders, or no charging for the second batch, yet. Jul 25 16:10:53 ok, i added myself to the P1 users Jul 25 16:11:31 hozer, my credit card was lost\stolen over the weekend and if they didn't already charge me, then when they do, it will fail Jul 25 16:11:33 :'( Jul 25 16:11:40 aaaaaaaaaahhh, okay. Jul 25 16:11:50 mintee: you can't check if it was charged? Jul 25 16:11:53 i have to somehow resubmit a credit card Jul 25 16:13:17 and or course I'm not doing that via email Jul 25 16:14:17 cjb_ie, i'm working on that now Jul 25 16:15:47 who does the charge show up as? Jul 25 16:16:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Variometer]] [[User:ChooseOpen]] [[FAQ/fr]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Berlin]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Talk:Hear_Me_FIC]] [[Group_Order]] Jul 25 16:18:39 hmm the wiki is kindoff messy...where should one look for a definitive getting started guide on how to flash all things needed into neo? Jul 25 16:20:00 the p0/p1 page Jul 25 16:20:41 jeddy3: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dfu-util#Flashing_the_kernel Jul 25 16:21:03 CoreDump|home, thanks Jul 25 16:21:27 there is no need to flash u-boot right? Jul 25 16:22:28 no, right Jul 25 16:22:41 there isn't Jul 25 16:23:00 and you should think twice about trying it if you do not own the debug board Jul 25 16:24:19 CoreDump|home, yes :) Jul 25 16:24:36 ;) Jul 25 16:25:38 is the schematic for the qt2410e available online anywhere? Jul 25 16:28:27 Sup3rkiddo: But I'm its master. Jul 25 16:28:49 ewanm89_laptop, ok make it spew "Hello Lord", when i enter Jul 25 16:29:06 Sup3rkiddo: Easy Jul 25 16:29:30 ewanm89_laptop, hmm..i smell a rat Jul 25 16:29:39 Sup3rkiddo: /cycle Jul 25 16:29:48 Hello Lord Jul 25 16:29:53 muhahah Jul 25 16:29:55 I told you. Jul 25 16:30:05 I can delete it just as easily. Jul 25 16:30:12 ewanm89_laptop, no no no Jul 25 16:30:32 Hello Lord Jul 25 16:31:30 ~p1 Jul 25 16:31:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 25 16:32:09 ~lart apt Jul 25 16:32:09 * apt slaps coredump|home around with a large trout Jul 25 16:32:09 * mokobot puts apt through a wood chipper Jul 25 16:32:13 ... Jul 25 16:32:23 ~dtx Jul 25 16:32:24 A seriously annoying gimp. Jul 25 16:32:35 ~stupid Jul 25 16:32:35 hmm... stupid is http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/bart.gif, or ibot Jul 25 16:32:43 ~Sup3rkiddo Jul 25 16:32:43 22% lame, apparently Jul 25 16:32:48 :P Jul 25 16:34:56 stop the bot abuse Jul 25 16:35:23 ~bot hell Jul 25 16:35:23 hmm... bot hell is definitely not in this channel. Jul 25 16:35:53 having two bots listen on the same control char is annoying Jul 25 16:36:54 CoreDump|home: Yeah, I'll try and fix that sometime, on oversight of the coders not to include it in the configuration file. Jul 25 16:39:43 ~empty_mind Jul 25 16:40:14 !googlebot Jul 25 16:40:41 hi Jul 25 16:41:31 jason1 better show up today and explain how he got his phone Jul 25 16:41:58 !google define: googlebot Jul 25 16:41:59 the crawler Google uses on a daily basis to find and index new web pages. @ http://www.abelgraphics.co.uk/glossary.php ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=all&q=define:+googlebot ) Jul 25 16:42:14 ;) Jul 25 16:42:30 !boobies Jul 25 16:42:53 !google openzarus vs openmoko Jul 25 16:42:54 Images @ http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=openzarus+vs+openmoko&safe=off&lr=lang_all&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=openzarus+vs+openmoko&safe=off&lr=lang_all&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi | Images @ http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=openzarus+vs+openmoko&safe=off&lr=lang_all&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi Jul 25 16:43:42 ?????? Jul 25 16:43:42 what was the command to compare the number of pages Jul 25 16:45:05 I didn't know there is one heh Jul 25 16:46:44 hi core/dump Jul 25 16:46:55 googlefight? Jul 25 16:46:57 !googlefight Jul 25 16:47:04 !googlefight me vs you Jul 25 16:47:06 By results on Google: you beats me by 3,100,000,000 to 2,000,000,000! Jul 25 16:47:18 woglinde: hey Jul 25 16:47:31 neat Jul 25 16:47:55 !googlefight openzarus vs openmoko Jul 25 16:47:56 By results on Google: openmoko beats openzarus by 2,060,000 to 189! Jul 25 16:48:05 bleh Jul 25 16:48:10 !googlefight openzaurus vs openmoko Jul 25 16:48:11 By results on Google: openmoko beats openzaurus by 2,060,000 to 240,000! Jul 25 16:48:12 (me vs. you) hmm, looks like egoism is dying quietly:) Jul 25 16:52:08 !google boobies Jul 25 16:52:09 Images @ http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=boobies&safe=off&lr=lang_all&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi | Gametrailers.com - ScrewAttack - Top Ten @ http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=17178&type=mov%20class=l | Booby family @ http://www.montereybay.com/creagrus/boobies.html%20class=l Jul 25 16:52:28 LOL Jul 25 16:53:18 what is open moko? Jul 25 16:53:18 DavyJones: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 25 16:53:48 daMaestro: want some boobies, here you go, http://www.msu.edu/course/isb/202/ebertmay/images/boobies.jpg Jul 25 16:54:43 daMaestro: they're Blue-footed boobies... interesting birds :) Jul 25 16:54:49 so this is like a cell phone with linux in it, right? Jul 25 16:55:19 DavyJones: that's it at it's most basic Jul 25 16:56:35 Open Moko is like the distro of Linux running on it, it is completely free software except a couple of drivers I believe Jul 25 16:56:51 one driver. Jul 25 16:57:18 GPS? Jul 25 16:57:21 Yep, gps. Jul 25 16:57:22 yes Jul 25 16:57:31 What about GSM functions? Jul 25 16:57:32 uh, i thought it was the gsm Jul 25 16:57:34 cool Jul 25 16:57:36 Proprietary purely in firmware? Jul 25 16:57:41 dtx, yes Jul 25 16:57:47 argh Jul 25 16:57:54 hena: it's accessible via AT commands Jul 25 16:57:57 does open moko has a camera, bluetooth, pic and video galleries, all of the other crap that's useful for nothing? Jul 25 16:57:57 Well, thats cool Jul 25 16:58:04 Thats the way firmware works usually anyways Jul 25 16:58:09 hena: you're not going to get the GSM stack open sourced ;) Jul 25 16:58:21 DavyJones: No camera Jul 25 16:58:28 dtx: great Jul 25 16:58:31 the gsm chip isn't part of openmoko, so it doesn't go into the openmoko freedom exceptions Jul 25 16:58:32 Next version will have 3D Accel and motion sensors Jul 25 16:58:34 DavyJones: it's not user-ready, so the answer to software questions is: no, not until someone writes it. Jul 25 16:58:47 well, you can try Jul 25 16:58:55 hena: no, you can't Jul 25 16:58:56 DavyJones: see FAQ links, it answer most of your questions Jul 25 16:59:02 DavyJones, as for hardware questions, openmoko isn't Jul 25 16:59:15 i know they're a bit anal with these rf drivers and such Jul 25 16:59:20 hena: it would be illegal to sell the phone in the UK if you could hack on the GSM internals. Jul 25 16:59:40 With actual jail-time. (after you've been told that the phone has been used for hacking) Jul 25 16:59:42 GSM is covered by international laws and treaties... Jul 25 16:59:43 SpeedEvil: so what? screw the UK Jul 25 16:59:45 probably some other countries too Jul 25 16:59:53 it would probably also be illegal to do the hacking, too Jul 25 16:59:57 yup, and in many other countries also, and you could f'ck up other frequencies also Jul 25 17:00:03 There are many countries with anti-phone-hacking legislation in force. Jul 25 17:00:18 but i'm my mind that's not a reason for doing something like that Jul 25 17:00:37 They would not also be approved for sale in the US. Jul 25 17:00:47 Or many other markets. Jul 25 17:00:52 hena: if you had a phone where the GSM was hackable, the operators would immediately blacklist it from the networks anyway Jul 25 17:02:22 that might be Jul 25 17:02:36 but i still think it's wrong Jul 25 17:03:47 It's unfortuantely not. Jul 25 17:04:19 One person with a hacked phone can disrupt calls - including emergency calls - by doing phone-phone direct comms, for example - over kilometers range. Jul 25 17:04:44 Now, imagine if this got out there in a mass market handset, and someone wrote the app. Jul 25 17:04:50 i'm not talking about that Jul 25 17:04:56 'free data transfer to local friends'. Jul 25 17:05:14 With an opensource GSM modem, yes you are. Jul 25 17:05:24 you're talking about the outcome, what would happen Jul 25 17:05:30 so, Justin got his phone! Jul 25 17:05:38 i'm talking about freedom Jul 25 17:05:40 sweet Jul 25 17:05:43 who's justin? Jul 25 17:06:08 i know people would misuse it, but i don't think it's enough for a reason to restrict such things Jul 25 17:06:22 i should be entitled to create my own damn cellphone, if i wanted Jul 25 17:06:48 and the operators are entitled to shut me off from their networks, if they don't like me Jul 25 17:07:04 but i wont get into this Jul 25 17:07:06 Shutting off from the networks isn't the problem. Jul 25 17:07:17 hena: aye, this isn't really the best forum for it ;) Jul 25 17:07:19 If you are shut off from the networks - you still interfere with them. Jul 25 17:07:45 SpeedEvil: do you have as much fun going through these things over and over as I have about doing the same regarding J2ME? Jul 25 17:08:01 http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?HTMLVersion=5.0&loc=en_US&Requester=UPSHome&tracknum=1Z5VX0380150731095&AgreeToTermsAndConditions=yes&ignore=&track.x=16&track.y=7 Jul 25 17:08:19 Stephmw: what things about J2ME ? Jul 25 17:08:46 bad things if there were no restrictions (calling, SMSing ?) or something else? Jul 25 17:09:08 The above with regards to deliveries. Jul 25 17:09:53 sandos: the typical uninformed commentaries regarding, speed, memory, usefullness, language, DRM, UI, religion... Jul 25 17:10:08 SpeedEvil: just one thing, interfering with the network isn't a problem anyways Jul 25 17:10:11 sandos: it's easy enough to dismiss, but boring all the same Jul 25 17:10:23 EOD Jul 25 17:10:25 ;) Jul 25 17:10:28 hEr Jul 25 17:10:32 Yes it is. Jul 25 17:10:42 ok, it is Jul 25 17:10:43 Interfere with the network, and people can't make emergency calls. Jul 25 17:10:45 let's not argue Jul 25 17:11:02 * Stephmw waves vaguely towards the mailing list Jul 25 17:11:20 yeah, i can make a device worth 10 bucks that shuts down everybodys cellphone Jul 25 17:11:22 Stephmw: ok Jul 25 17:11:26 well, drops the signal anyways Jul 25 17:11:58 they even sell such things for keyrings Jul 25 17:12:52 Having a purpose made jammer is very different from having a mass market smartphone with 'free data transfer' available as an app for it. There is no motive to use the jammer all the time. People would use the phone link for streaming. Jul 25 17:13:27 s/phone link/phone frequencies/ Jul 25 17:13:28 SpeedEvil meant: Having a purpose made jammer is very different from having a mass market smartphone with 'free data transfer' available as an app for it. There is no motive to use the jammer all the time. People would use the phone frequencies for streaming. Jul 25 17:13:55 haha Jul 25 17:14:01 nice bot ;) Jul 25 17:14:56 i'd like to argue about this Jul 25 17:15:04 but i know it's pointless, so you win Jul 25 17:18:31 * k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back. Jul 25 17:24:08 oh, the mayhem you could to with a GSM stack Jul 25 17:24:57 and that's why it's a proprietary module Jul 25 17:25:17 security by obscurity Jul 25 17:25:31 I wonder how long it will take for it to stay that way Jul 25 17:25:34 The nasty problem isn't the skilled engineer or hacker getting it. It's a hundred and ten thousand 12 year olds getting it, on a phone they already own. Jul 25 17:25:39 not really - all the info is in etsi specs Jul 25 17:25:50 you can make your own mahem. Jul 25 17:25:51 * mjr agrees though that it's icky and we already hit even practical snags because of the GSM module's proprietaryness Jul 25 17:26:07 but not if your a script kiddie Jul 25 17:26:19 you're Jul 25 17:26:22 image how much less trouble we would have on the internet if everybody could only send well defined TCP/IP packets, emails etc. Jul 25 17:26:29 * koen mentions http://wiki.thc.org/gsm Jul 25 17:26:58 Fundamentally rather different. Jul 25 17:27:03 (that guy who wanted to do gsm-wifi-handoff) Jul 25 17:27:08 The internet is not all connected to one dumb hub. Jul 25 17:27:16 With everyone getting everyones packets. Jul 25 17:27:24 *nod* Jul 25 17:27:29 And everyone interfering with everyone else. Jul 25 17:27:59 right, GSM is rather not so "peer to peer" Jul 25 17:28:25 koen: hey, do you know if the qt2410e schematic is available anywhere? Jul 25 17:28:33 that's what voip and wifi phones are for. Jul 25 17:28:35 follow ref on wiki Jul 25 17:28:41 prpplague: not that I know off, you'd have to ask harald or qtzone Jul 25 17:28:42 but I am sure that there is a GSM "ping of death" equivalent. it would only kill the next BTS, but then... Jul 25 17:29:05 a link to the manual on the wiki - or from samsung site Jul 25 17:30:41 prpplague: sorry i missed the qt. I think they are use a chinese knock-off of the qt board Jul 25 17:31:39 writchie: yea, the qt is suppose to be a knock off of the smdk2410 iirc Jul 25 17:31:49 koen: thats what i figured Jul 25 17:32:26 did familiar become openembedded? Jul 25 17:32:33 (and subsequently openmoko?) Jul 25 17:32:34 prpplague what are you searching in there exactly? Jul 25 17:32:53 prpplague: last i look at the chinese site the 2410 was replaced by a 2442 Jul 25 17:33:05 roh: i was curious if the mmc/sd/sdio socket on that design included 10k pullups per the sd specification Jul 25 17:33:16 be nice to have somebody arrange to source some of these. Jul 25 17:33:52 writchie: there are plenty of s3c2410 boards available, i was mainly checking since the qt2410e was used as the reference for neo Jul 25 17:34:17 i meant the 2442 - have you seen these Jul 25 17:34:18 prpplague hehe.. good question... you know of http://www.jollen.org/kit/ ? Jul 25 17:34:31 * prpplague looks Jul 25 17:34:52 2442 is a mcp of 2440, sdram and nand flash Jul 25 17:35:00 right Jul 25 17:35:23 roh: not run across that one before Jul 25 17:35:45 besides that its the same as 2440 to most degree (some pmu differences) which is basically a 2440 with higher clocks Jul 25 17:35:52 eh 2410 Jul 25 17:36:22 errata may be different - it might work Jul 25 17:36:32 e.g. DRAM to nand Jul 25 17:36:41 vie dma Jul 25 17:36:50 i.e. via dma Jul 25 17:37:15 japp.. some minor differences.. also in the nand interface. but its already supported in form of gpl source ;) Jul 25 17:37:25 roh: is the schematic posted for that board? Jul 25 17:37:54 prpplague i do now know.. but you can send a mail to jollen. he knows.. he has done it. Jul 25 17:37:55 * * OM Bug 659 has been created by werner(AT)openmoko.org Jul 25 17:37:56 * * QMEU mis-detects gcc32 as gcc-3.* on Gentoo, then compilation fails Jul 25 17:37:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=659 Jul 25 17:37:57 roh: at some point, someone with a schematic needs to update the power managment page. Jul 25 17:38:09 Or of course, write complete drivers for it. Jul 25 17:38:21 SpeedEvil what are you missing? Jul 25 17:40:04 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management for example refers to bugs in P0 Jul 25 17:40:44 speed, i thought these were fixed on the P1 copper Jul 25 17:41:06 koen: page at http://openembedded.sourceforge.net/ is no longer true eh? Jul 25 17:41:31 bmidgley: half true Jul 25 17:41:42 it's still high on the google hit list... Jul 25 17:41:49 http://openembedded.org/ is the correct url, but it's hosted at linuxtogo.org now Jul 25 17:41:57 writchie: they are - the way they are fixed is not - forex 'NOTE: The S3C2410 cannot resume from Power_off on UART input data. We need to connect either RTS/CTS to EINT, or send some other signals via GSM Modem GPIO to the EINT[0..15] pins of the S3C2410' Jul 25 17:42:15 which way was chosen - unless this is documented in source Jul 25 17:42:56 is there something other than just desktop like power states Jul 25 17:43:03 writchie: basically. Jul 25 17:43:14 meaning only desktop like Jul 25 17:43:17 ? Jul 25 17:43:20 writchie: There eventually needs to be a nice interface to slow the CPU Jul 25 17:43:45 definitely - most power gains come from popping up every 500ms to take a peak Jul 25 17:43:57 and going back to pseudo sleep Jul 25 17:44:03 And to turn on/off USB, display driver, SD card drivers, modify CPU voltage, support CPU idle mode, ... to save power. Jul 25 17:44:10 of course Jul 25 17:44:24 doesn't really fit structure of kernel Jul 25 17:44:38 made need some hook Jul 25 17:44:44 in the wakeup Jul 25 17:45:06 SpeedEvil the second concept is used Jul 25 17:45:52 SpeedEvil there is a gpio line sending an irq to the 2410 when flow control indicates the app-cpu is sleeping Jul 25 17:46:55 so the app cpu is sleeping all the time and only wakes up when it really needs. the gsm modem can be configured to send or not send events, so when you do not want cellbroadcast your app cpu can be left sleeping Jul 25 17:48:06 the gsm and bluetooth drivers need to process this without coming out of full sleep Jul 25 17:48:15 is this in the present approach Jul 25 17:48:49 I was wondering if any OpenMoko developer will be at Defcon and CCC, I would really like to see one of those phone. I will offer the beers :) Jul 25 17:49:23 dataworm defcon i do not know. but some of them are definitively on the ccc camp and some will also be on the congress Jul 25 17:49:46 cool :) I will be at the camp, you know if they present at the camp? Jul 25 17:50:25 i will be there and openmoko will be present in the gsm village Jul 25 17:51:09 very cool :) Jul 25 17:54:25 I'll be at SANS in Chicago and will be bringing my neos Jul 25 17:54:36 hopefully there will be a lot of hands on hacking and not too much would be could be discussions.. but well manage and it will be very relaxing Jul 25 17:54:38 but by that time they'll be on public sale Jul 25 17:56:32 roh: thanks. Jul 25 17:57:50 roh: Are you planning to bring a few Phone for sale at CCC? Jul 25 17:57:59 äåö Jul 25 17:58:05 oops Jul 25 17:58:15 I am sure they would bring the attention of some hacker that could probably contribute hacking on them right away Jul 25 18:04:31 what does moko-dialog.test: error while loading shared libraries: libmokoui.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory mean? Jul 25 18:07:28 i don't see any autogen.sh in trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/openmoko-dialog-demo directory, unlike what is mentioned in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC Jul 25 18:08:56 mbuf: bet you could do libtoolize -f; aclocal; autoconf; automake and get real close Jul 25 18:11:15 Aria, and where should i run that? Jul 25 18:11:56 In the directory you untarred an app in Jul 25 18:12:10 That's what an autogen.sh would contain, in essence Jul 25 18:12:34 The error you got above (stack reading, sorry) means that you don't have the .so file available -- perhaps run ldconfig? Jul 25 18:13:11 Aria, the openmoko-dialog-demo example contains only a Makefile and a source .c file Jul 25 18:14:42 counter Jul 25 18:14:42 (last update 2007-07-21 06:20) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 75% in a day 08:52:36 (1.370±1.4 days) (1777;251) Jul 25 18:15:51 Oh, I see. That's a simplistic app then Jul 25 18:15:55 so run make? Jul 25 18:16:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[MokoMakefile]] [[Wishlist:context_based_to-do_list]] [[Wish_List]] [[Talk:Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[User:Samon007]] [[Wishlist:EggTimer]] [[Category:Server]] [[Neo1973_Hardware]] and other changes Jul 25 18:17:49 Aria, i tried the openmoko-stylus-demo and it works fine! thanks! Jul 25 18:17:56 Sure thing! Jul 25 18:19:04 Aria, so should i just use the openmoko-stylus-demo template to do other applications? Jul 25 18:20:35 Aria, i have tried bitbake, and i am able to build an application with it under the openmoko environment; what additional work should i do to integrate it run-time display when used with qemu? Jul 25 19:10:36 http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/07/24/first-iPhone-vulnerability-found_1.html Jul 25 19:10:41 that should go to the lists ^ Jul 25 19:12:18 SpeedEvil - Any idea on what rate doppler thingies change? Jul 25 19:13:57 daMaestro: that is almost bad news. thanks to that that flaw or similar, it is possible to run Free code on the iphone. Jul 25 19:14:08 heaven forbid, someone could port Linux and OpenMoko. ;) Jul 25 19:17:33 orospakr: why do you think that being able to view local files is the same as being able to boot Linux? Jul 25 19:17:47 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 25 19:19:45 it's a good note to make neo secure Jul 25 19:20:46 cjb - it's maybe not the same, but it's a start. un-trusted coded doing something the carrier/manufacturer didn't specifically authorize... Jul 25 19:21:02 ckuethe: how is that unlike, say, a Treo? Jul 25 19:21:10 dunno. never used a treo Jul 25 19:21:25 it allows you to write software for it. Jul 25 19:21:43 i think is point though is that people are starting to find weaknesses in what was intended to be a closed phone Jul 25 19:21:56 and perhaps those can be leveraged to run a fully open stack Jul 25 19:22:14 sure. I just don't think they're anywhere near going to arbitrary kernels. For all we know there's a firmware checksum. Jul 25 19:22:27 i'm going to suspect that it'll be harder ... probably the CDMA stuff is tangled right in the OS Jul 25 19:22:35 has anyone started on the sdio driver for the 2440 wifi interface? Jul 25 19:22:43 firmware checksums do get broken... eg. iriver Jul 25 19:22:58 nm Jul 25 19:22:59 sony psp... Jul 25 19:23:03 iphone != cdma Jul 25 19:23:05 duh Jul 25 19:23:19 must. get. more. caffeine. Jul 25 19:23:50 iphone won't come to canada... at least not until rogers stops sucking Jul 25 19:24:03 i bet it's some bug in webkit :p Jul 25 19:24:13 cjb, different news. Jul 25 19:24:22 cjb, separate bugs. Jul 25 19:25:03 hello everyone... Jul 25 19:25:10 minor problem here... Jul 25 19:25:20 seems as if make update Jul 25 19:25:25 doesn't work for me. Jul 25 19:25:34 anyone else experience that? Jul 25 19:25:47 (using mokomakefile) Jul 25 19:26:04 Has it worked for you before? Jul 25 19:26:15 freskog: that's a bit vague, how exactly does it not work? Jul 25 19:26:20 and it just broke or this is your first attempt? Jul 25 19:26:39 It complains about the schema (worked fine before= Jul 25 19:26:41 ) Jul 25 19:27:26 I'd paste the errormsg, but it's in swedish (damn you l10n!) Jul 25 19:27:52 freskog: it is monotone that is complaining? Jul 25 19:27:55 we understand t swedish chef ! Jul 25 19:27:56 :) Jul 25 19:28:18 LarstiQ: yes. Jul 25 19:28:32 Swedish is a Germanic language--how hard can it be to understand? :-) Jul 25 19:28:36 freskog: that sounds like your version of monotone is too old Jul 25 19:28:50 0.35 Jul 25 19:29:45 I need to start reading the FAQ/Wiki... mtn --db OE.mtn db migrate Jul 25 19:29:52 seems to be a common problem. Jul 25 19:29:56 sorry to interrupt. Jul 25 19:31:00 hi guys Jul 25 19:31:06 * freskog goes to get a beer. Jul 25 19:32:01 freskog: Shouldn't you be celebrating with a box of chocolates or something? Jul 25 19:32:21 beer, good idea :) Jul 25 19:32:30 ozark1: it's the midnight sun, drives us crazy :) Jul 25 19:32:37 svenska, tak Jul 25 19:32:53 the full extent of my swedish vocabulary. Oh, and "snop" Jul 25 19:33:22 noidd: Not bad, only two out of three words misspelt :) Jul 25 19:33:31 Does anyone else have an issue when it comes to compiling the openmoko-rssreader step in the MokoMakefile? Jul 25 19:36:11 * freskog claims he misspelled 'misspelt' on purpose for comic effect. Jul 25 19:36:12 Anyone know the root password? The wii says it is set to blank, but it dont like that :( Jul 25 19:36:28 wii=wiki Jul 25 19:36:38 root? Jul 25 19:36:50 ZerothCloned: tried that... Jul 25 19:37:23 Elrond: http://www.mauve.plus.com/gps Jul 25 19:37:27 I still haven't even gotten my moko build enviro setup yet, can;t help ya :/ Jul 25 19:38:12 Elrond: http://www.mauve.plus.com/gpsrate Jul 25 19:38:24 it's a couple of meters a second a minute or so. Jul 25 19:40:22 Tops out at +-600m/s or so. Jul 25 19:40:44 If you want me to generate a months or so data per minute at your location, I can do that. Jul 25 19:42:27 http://www.mauve.plus.com/gpsrate does not work. Jul 25 19:42:50 Oh well. Jul 25 19:43:02 There is a link in the wiki - hang on. I may have misnamed it. Jul 25 19:43:35 http://www.mauve.plus.com/gps Jul 25 19:44:42 This is at the same time as the NMEA longtrace Jul 25 19:44:45 and at that position Jul 25 19:44:58 Ahh :-) Jul 25 19:48:18 is there any way I can get MokoMakefile to skip a specific program? Jul 25 19:48:59 Hmm ... I got one more error ... I tried to resolve it with "mtn --db OE.mtn regenerate_caches", this has been running for quite some time now ... Jul 25 19:49:04 is that normal? Jul 25 19:52:23 Let me rephrase that question: Does anyone know what "mtn --db OE.mtn regenerate_caches" does? Jul 25 19:53:14 no idea, but I've observed mtn not being instantly done with operations, I wouldn't fuss over it just yet Jul 25 19:53:29 Did anyone get an email with shippment tracking? Jul 25 19:54:06 does anyone know where to get webkit/gdk? It appears the rssreader has a dependency on it. Jul 25 19:54:13 mmazur: ala http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:ChooseOpen ? Jul 25 19:54:32 ChooseOpen: it is empty. yes. Jul 25 19:54:58 LarstiQ, well, yeah, I have the same question :) Jul 25 19:55:15 their shipping rate seems to be as bad as their charging rate Jul 25 19:55:25 noidd, doesnt seem to be. I reset it with 'passwd', but the new password doesnt work either... very confused Jul 25 19:55:39 wassup ChooseOpen? Jul 25 19:56:00 ScaredyCat: Going good. got hte device flash. now trying to ssh into it. Jul 25 19:56:03 freskog: I took my (then) 5 year old nephew to a game in Sweden. He was my translator (fully bi-lingual Swedish / English). He told me the swedish for "hotdog" was "snop". I got a wierd wierd look when I tried to order it. Jul 25 19:56:07 flash=flashed Jul 25 19:56:08 <-- pwned by a 5 year old. Jul 25 19:56:16 haha Jul 25 19:56:17 hahaha Jul 25 19:56:18 Hahaha. Jul 25 19:56:24 having probs ChooseOpen? Jul 25 19:56:26 spot the .se contingent Jul 25 19:56:33 .ax! Jul 25 19:56:37 and proud of it! Jul 25 19:56:40 .ax? Jul 25 19:56:42 (it's snopp btw) Jul 25 19:56:42 noidd: hahaha xD Jul 25 19:56:50 The Åland Islands Jul 25 19:56:52 .ax? wtf? Jul 25 19:56:59 www.aland.ax Jul 25 19:56:59 ScaredyCat: yeah. I can ssh into it, but it dont like the blank password. I reset the password and it wont take that one either... Jul 25 19:57:04 neat, didn't know the tld for it Jul 25 19:57:22 freskog: I think something's wrong with you irc client. Jul 25 19:57:35 You got a weird thing on to of your 'A' Jul 25 19:57:36 ozark1: why's that? Jul 25 19:57:37 checked /etc/passwd Jul 25 19:57:38 ? Jul 25 19:57:43 ozark1: double A Jul 25 19:57:47 ozark1: Very funny... Jul 25 19:57:48 So, I've not gone back to Sweden since. Jul 25 19:58:13 freskog: that's pronounced almost the same as the Dutch for island, does it have the same meaning? Jul 25 19:58:21 noidd: Don't worry, most of sweden has probably forgotten by now :) Jul 25 19:59:06 probably Jul 25 19:59:13 I have quite a bit of Family in .se Jul 25 19:59:19 LastiQ: Not really, "Å" is pronounced as a double A (but in reality it's closer to the way a dutch guy prounounces the H in holland) Jul 25 19:59:35 the "Ho" in Holland Jul 25 19:59:44 yo ho ho Jul 25 19:59:49 freskog: I'd just say 'o' in Holland :) Jul 25 20:00:11 But there's a slight 'H'-sound no? Jul 25 20:00:13 freskog: unless I'm overly influenced by Danish Jul 25 20:00:36 * freskog gotta go, I have company :) Jul 25 20:00:46 where can I get webkit-gtk? The rssreader has a dependency on it. Jul 25 20:00:46 * ScaredyCat slaps people Jul 25 20:00:54 I guess I can say "Damn Europeans" now that I've emmigrated from the UK to the US :-) Jul 25 20:01:31 noidd, even if you haven't you'd just be a guy from a small island, not a prud european! ;) Jul 25 20:01:35 sleeper cell noidd? ;) Jul 25 20:01:36 ZerothCloned: There's a port in the main webkit.org repo, but not sure how to integrate that with moko stuff yet Jul 25 20:01:40 *proud Jul 25 20:02:06 then why does the rssreader have a dependency on it? seems thats the /second/ broken commit with mokoMakefile *grumbles* Jul 25 20:02:12 noidd: Damn Americans, Damn Europeans, stupid EU. Jul 25 20:02:16 mmazur: right, since when does the UK consider itself part of Europe? :) Jul 25 20:02:33 much to our detriment.. Jul 25 20:02:47 * ScaredyCat is from uk, but pretty europeanized Jul 25 20:02:47 Hence I'm born and bred brittish. ^^^ Jul 25 20:03:06 * LarstiQ is only slightly bred brittish. Jul 25 20:03:22 damn, only person helping me, and they had to go. *grumbles* Jul 25 20:03:23 * ScaredyCat makes British bread Jul 25 20:03:24 LarstiQ, yeah. They drive wrong, they have wrong currency. Jul 25 20:03:28 LarstiQ, they speak funny. Jul 25 20:03:57 mmazur: Yeah, I know the americans and french do. Jul 25 20:04:38 * mmazur from the other side of the iron courtain Jul 25 20:04:44 You evil capitalist opressors, you! Jul 25 20:05:00 prpplague hasn't had a response "anyone started work on the sdio driver for use with the wifi module? i'm working with a similiar device and was looking to pool resources"? Jul 25 20:05:09 noidd: you're so evil Jul 25 20:05:22 noidd: you betrayed your nation Jul 25 20:05:38 ScaredyCat, define europeanized? Jul 25 20:05:42 lol Jul 25 20:05:45 prpplague: I just sent something through one of the bots. Jul 25 20:05:49 prpplague hasn't had a response "anyone started work on the sdio driver for use with the wifi module? i'm working with a similiar device and was looking to pool resources"? Jul 25 20:06:03 mokobot, oh, bugger off. Jul 25 20:06:17 I live in .nl, work in uk and nl, think it would be benificial to take the euro... Jul 25 20:06:35 etc# Jul 25 20:06:38 mmazur: He really wants to know. Jul 25 20:06:38 -# Jul 25 20:06:48 when make openmoko-devel-image using MokoMakefile I get this error: Jul 25 20:06:48 Packaged contents of locale-base-ar-kw into /home/andlo/openmoko/build/tmp/deploy/ipk/armv4t/locale-base-ar-kw_2.5-r4_armv4t.ipk Jul 25 20:06:48 locale-base-aa-er Jul 25 20:06:48 *** Error: Package name contains illegal characters, (other than [a-z0-9.+-]) Jul 25 20:06:48 Anybody who knows what I am dooing wrong? Jul 25 20:06:48 * mmazur lives in .pl and thinks the same thing Jul 25 20:08:06 mmazur: you live in perl? Jul 25 20:08:29 Oh, funny. Jul 25 20:08:32 * ewanm89_laptop is more of a .c guy. Jul 25 20:09:06 * mmazur is more of a .py guy Jul 25 20:09:10 Thoug I live in .pl. Jul 25 20:09:15 * ScaredyCat likes pie too Jul 25 20:09:15 Guano happens, you know. Jul 25 20:09:20 * Kero is more of a .rb guy Jul 25 20:09:44 Kero, domain not found Jul 25 20:09:45 * ScaredyCat is more of a .stfu_with_the_dumb_._crap Jul 25 20:09:46 ewanm89_laptop, same Jul 25 20:09:50 * ewanm89_laptop can do all of those so far. Jul 25 20:10:11 mmazur: will have to create a new country ! Bow to your king ! Jul 25 20:10:14 Wonder how long it'll take to ship the phones to europe. Jul 25 20:10:34 Kero, that's nothing. My lifetime goal is to irc from the long.long.int domain. Jul 25 20:10:43 The thing is, I'll have to set up an international treaty for it. Jul 25 20:10:48 All in due time however. Jul 25 20:11:24 6 days 4 hours 32 minutes Jul 25 20:11:41 pft, In my country you'll have arbitrary-long integers. I can not possibly sign that treaty of yours Jul 25 20:12:33 *sighs* Jul 25 20:16:43 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Duesseldorf]] [[Guitar_Tuning]] [[Wishlist:ANARM]] [[Wishlist:Profiles]] [[Wishlist:Location_based_reminders]] [[Wishlist:context_based_to-do_list]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Wishlist:Tagging]] [[Wishlist:Point_of_Interest_Framework]] and other changes Jul 25 20:24:00 openmoko: 03ortalo * r2393 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-calculator/ (7 files in 3 dirs): bugfix for sign inversion after result Jul 25 20:27:44 say, does anyone know how FIC and the OpenMoko.com projekt work together? Do the guys all have a contract from FIC? Jul 25 20:28:04 is that explained somewhere? Jul 25 20:30:07 openmoko is a FIC spinoff Jul 25 20:30:16 there is a small core team that consists of freelancers Jul 25 20:30:39 though they pretty much don't have time for anything else right now :) Jul 25 20:30:50 other than that, it's all volunteers Jul 25 20:31:35 guaqua: But we also have resources inside FIC. For hardware, business stuff, etc.. Jul 25 20:31:46 openmoko project is an open source project like any other, although it's heavily supported by fic Jul 25 20:31:54 stefan_schmidt: true Jul 25 20:31:58 but for openmoko Jul 25 20:32:10 so the core team gets some money from FIC. Not much, apparently as "they don't do it for the money" as it says on the website somewhere :-) Jul 25 20:32:29 guaqua: And once the we have finished all the restructure stuff for OpenMoko Inc. we will also hire more people. But we need a basement for this. Jul 25 20:32:44 and aparently, they are not hiring Jul 25 20:32:45 i'm thinking they get good enough money, but they also work 247 for the project Jul 25 20:33:14 hhf423: Hire will start, but I have no date Jul 25 20:33:46 And yes, it's a mixture between freelance work and hobby Jul 25 20:33:59 its just when I read the blogs I get the feeling that they guys have way too much to deal with. Jul 25 20:34:10 they do... Jul 25 20:34:56 I understand how hobby/community projects/etc and startups work, and I understand that doing stuff you have never done before is fun, ... Jul 25 20:34:58 hhf423: That's right, but before we can hire we need plans what and when to do, rooms for local people, deals with the legal department... Jul 25 20:35:05 but its not professional :-) Jul 25 20:35:19 * LarstiQ blinks at hhf423 Jul 25 20:35:57 big words Jul 25 20:35:58 hhf423: It's not a startup. Most of the people doing this for years Jul 25 20:36:00 startups often have support from their VCs for this kind of stuff, doing plans, dealing with legal stuff... Jul 25 20:36:08 hhf423: no VC Jul 25 20:36:12 fic isn't a startup Jul 25 20:36:29 fic get contracted by the likes of nokia to make phones Jul 25 20:36:32 fic reveune is about $billion US Jul 25 20:36:38 3 billion Jul 25 20:36:54 "doing this" is development of mobile software, right? but what I see is a product development and distribution operation Jul 25 20:37:06 yeah, I know what FIC is Jul 25 20:37:13 then you haven't read the background Jul 25 20:37:24 but FIC is not running the show here Jul 25 20:37:46 hhf423: So what are your suggestions? Jul 25 20:38:05 i'm off to sleep, nighty night guys :) Jul 25 20:38:17 night guaqua Jul 25 20:38:30 stefan_schmidt: me doing suggestions at this point in time would be useless, as I have not enough background. Jul 25 20:38:38 night guaqua Jul 25 20:38:55 hhf423: But what is your point then? Jul 25 20:39:05 does openmoko.com have a legal structure yet? is it an INC or something? Jul 25 20:39:27 As already told: OpenMoko Inc. Jul 25 20:39:32 Does anyone know what number they got up to shipping (assuming its US)? Jul 25 20:39:39 stefan_schmidt: I do not have a point, yet, I was asking questions Jul 25 20:40:06 and the Inc has approx how many employees? Jul 25 20:40:09 hhf423: No, you say it is not professional... Jul 25 20:41:04 yes, that's an accusation, not a question Jul 25 20:41:40 stefan_schmidt: I said it with a smile, ok? but sure, I said that. I wonder why guys who are better qualified working on the product architecture are dealing with the shipment process Jul 25 20:42:57 so it looks like FIC has no infrastructure for this part of the project and I wonder why they, for example, did not hire a person or two to build it. it looks like the core team is doing that Jul 25 20:43:02 hhf423: That is indeed sad. Harald is Mr. Perfect, and the webshop we started with was the hell Jul 25 20:43:22 yeah, I read the blog about that :-) Jul 25 20:43:30 hhf423: We had hired people doing it. But it was shit Jul 25 20:43:53 And now Harald fixes it up, and I agree that this should not be his job Jul 25 20:43:58 the blogs are a little close to the edge Jul 25 20:44:02 But tell him that... Jul 25 20:44:48 And besides the perl script for the shop the work behind is done by ~5 other people, non core-team Jul 25 20:45:54 maybe I am naive here, but in my book, there is totally no need to code a shop yourself. shops are commodity services you just buy. Jul 25 20:46:04 It's just a hell of organization and restructure atm. Same as in other companies, but we have parts of this also open. Which introduces transparency but also confusion and troubles... Jul 25 20:46:31 aw, dbus-monitor by default does not listen to all messages... Jul 25 20:46:34 and when I say service, I mean service, not even buying a shop system, but a service. you just put the products in and out comes orders and money Jul 25 20:46:44 hhf423: The php shops you buy are a security nightmare. Jul 25 20:47:03 as I said: not buy shop, buy shop service. Jul 25 20:47:05 * ScaredyCat sells a shop to stefan_schmidt Jul 25 20:47:13 all shops are a nightmare Jul 25 20:47:24 hhf423: But we also care about privacy of people. For example not store private data of customers by default. Jul 25 20:47:44 out of box merchant services are poor... and no real company will use them Jul 25 20:47:58 * ScaredyCat doesn't think so... Jul 25 20:48:02 i could care less about how the shop functioned (it could have been debugged more) but oh well Jul 25 20:48:17 * ewanm89_laptop thinks too many companies rely on them. Jul 25 20:48:22 hhf423: In the end the shop itself is the smallest problem. Getting all the shiiping and cc stuff right is a bigger problem. Jul 25 20:48:23 * ScaredyCat points at linitx.com Jul 25 20:48:37 the only issue i've cared about is how shipping was handled.. and the lack of pre-thought into the information provided at the purchase site. Jul 25 20:48:43 stefan_schmidt, +1 Jul 25 20:48:54 stefan_schmidt, and those issues could have been solved by a brief paragraph of text Jul 25 20:49:08 Anyway, I'm not a sales or business guy and stop this here. Other stuff todo. Jul 25 20:49:21 yeah, communications is an other thing Jul 25 20:49:28 yeah daMaestro .. communications.. Jul 25 20:49:35 bad Jul 25 20:49:45 so, but I do not want to complain, really, I just wonder why it is that way Jul 25 20:49:53 *was* that way Jul 25 20:49:59 5 minutes for an email would ahve made stuff lots better Jul 25 20:50:10 less moaning Jul 25 20:50:15 etc Jul 25 20:50:15 now you have 'hear me fix^Wfic' :) Jul 25 20:50:31 stefan_schmidt: hi. Jul 25 20:51:00 hello all. Jul 25 20:51:06 Anyone discussed creating an app for doing GSM->SIP/SIP->GSM gateway with Openmoko? Jul 25 20:51:17 hi rtp Jul 25 20:51:18 daMaestro: you just talked about "real" companies, no? From "real" companies, I get a mail when I did place my order, a mail every other day on what the status is, a mail when they have charged my cc, a mail when they have handed the package to UPS and a mail with the tracking number, and a few mails in between :-) Jul 25 20:51:36 jesus, it's developer preview Jul 25 20:51:46 so you had shipping preview also Jul 25 20:51:51 hahaha Jul 25 20:51:53 hhf423 whats your problem trolling around? by an iphone Jul 25 20:52:04 stefan_schmidt: did you seen the mails about the modem wakeup on the kernel mailing list ? Jul 25 20:52:31 hhf423, most "real" companies don't use out of box commerce software. Jul 25 20:52:34 that is what i said. Jul 25 20:52:52 hhf423, and yes.. leave me alone and quit trolling ;-) Jul 25 20:52:55 * * OM Bug 660 has been created by cooltlguy(AT)hotmail.com Jul 25 20:52:56 * * dependency on webkit/gtk Jul 25 20:52:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=660 Jul 25 20:53:00 /m stefan_schmidt do you have any idea who I'd talk to about getting a local wireless carrier (iwirelesss.com) to carry the neo when it's 'ready' Jul 25 20:53:03 heh Jul 25 20:53:05 * hozer can't type Jul 25 20:53:14 +sg :) Jul 25 20:53:21 rtp: I have seen them. Need to poke Harald about it. Jul 25 20:53:43 rtp: Normally there should be an interupt on an incoming call. Jul 25 20:54:06 * hozer has ideas of trying to convince someone at iwireless to do a 'branded' neo1973 phone Jul 25 20:54:15 stefan_schmidt: yeah but it was on Bv3 errata so I thought it was fixed on Bv4 Jul 25 20:54:20 rtp: I'll see what infos I can get the next days. Jul 25 20:54:41 umm, quick question: has anyone tried to use mokomakefile in the past few days? Jul 25 20:54:44 stefan_schmidt: thanks :) Jul 25 20:54:49 rtp: It should be fixed in hardware and GSM firmware. But perhaps not kernel yet Jul 25 20:54:59 hozer: (Carrier) No idea Jul 25 20:55:03 ZerothCloned: just a few mins ago Jul 25 20:55:11 hads: I am sure that someone will hook up their openmoko to an asterisk sooner or later Jul 25 20:55:19 hozer: Mail to a contact address? Jul 25 20:55:45 stefan_schmidt: I was wondering more who to contact @ fic.. Jul 25 20:55:46 stefan_schmidt: I tried to do what I could with the few infos I have but it seems it was not enough Jul 25 20:55:54 ZerothCloned: No, but I build everyday. What's the problem? Jul 25 20:55:59 had any issues on getting openmoko-rssreader to configure? it won't on mine, because I don't have webkit-gtk Jul 25 20:56:06 hhf423: Yes, I'm sure they will too, I was more talking about creating an app to let the device function as a SIP-GSM gateway. Jul 25 20:56:07 I have tryed mokomakefile and cant get it to work - get a error Jul 25 20:56:08 hads: but you could do that (GSM/SIP/GSM) today with a Asterisk box, a friend of mine did that with a flat rate mobile phone Jul 25 20:56:17 rtp: yeah, I have seen this. Need to get you more infos. :) Jul 25 20:56:19 once my phone shows up I'm goign to go down to the iwireless offices and knock on doors Jul 25 20:56:34 hozer: Ah, I would wait a bit with this Jul 25 20:56:42 tell the iwireless folks its an iphone killer ;-) Jul 25 20:56:56 hozer: If you mail coreteam now, you will not get an answer for this, sorry. Jul 25 20:57:01 stefan_schmidt: you can also give only infos, I'll make the kernel patch if one is needed :) Jul 25 20:57:11 stefan_schmidt: that's what I figured Jul 25 20:57:34 hads: the device itself? what would that accomplish? I mean, have the phone use SIP over GSM/EGDE data would be good if you had a data flatrate, but what else? Jul 25 20:57:59 ZerothCloned: Ah, that one. Fixed today or yesterday. Please update Jul 25 20:58:04 Now.. what would be required to do VOIP over the wifi and do seamless handoff to the cell network like some tmobile phones are supposed to be able to do? Jul 25 20:58:10 ZerothCloned: The svn this is Jul 25 20:58:16 ah, thanks stefan :D Jul 25 20:58:30 so, do I just use the Mokomakefile update commands? Jul 25 20:58:43 ZerothCloned: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=648 Jul 25 20:58:53 that'll be a problem without carrier iintervention hozer Jul 25 20:59:02 hhf423: For example, so you can make and receive GSM calls via VoIP from other phones in your house. Jul 25 20:59:07 ZerothCloned: (MokoMakefile) Sorry, not sure how the update is handled. I do it all by hand Jul 25 20:59:29 ScaredyCat: let's assume we have carrier support.. Jul 25 20:59:39 what are the technical details? Jul 25 20:59:53 modem Jul 25 20:59:54 :p Jul 25 21:00:02 gsm chipset... Jul 25 21:00:30 speak to squalyl Jul 25 21:00:35 or see recent thread on mailing list about this Jul 25 21:00:46 he's got a project Jul 25 21:00:47 ynezz: which list.. Jul 25 21:01:06 gsmd-devel@lists.openmoko.org Jul 25 21:01:18 hads: GSM calls via VoIP? I do not think I get it. If the openmoko could act as a VoIP client, it could be able to receive VoIP via EDGE while outside and via WLAN while at home Jul 25 21:01:24 hads: 'About GSM/Wifi handover' thread Jul 25 21:01:42 ynezz: Not what I'm talking about Jul 25 21:01:56 .... oh crap, its starting all over again isn't it? Jul 25 21:02:51 hads: and of course, you could make the phone use your VoIP via WLAN when at home to make calls and GSM only when you're outside Jul 25 21:03:10 hhf423: Not what I'm talking about. Jul 25 21:03:26 Forget it. Jul 25 21:03:31 any link about it? Jul 25 21:03:57 The idea is for a GSM over IP protocol to be implemented. Jul 25 21:04:09 About a GSM/SIP gateway, sure, there will loads. Jul 25 21:04:16 hads: or do you mean that the phone should hand over an incoming GSM call via VoIP /WLAN to somewhere else? Jul 25 21:04:19 So that the wifi connection is just an unusually connectged GSM tower Jul 25 21:04:30 ah Jul 25 21:04:31 hhf423: Corect! :) Jul 25 21:05:02 Your phone 'roams' onto the wifi connection, as it would onto any tower, and from tbe networks position, it looks like any other roaming. Jul 25 21:05:18 With handover done right. Jul 25 21:05:53 hads: I probably took so long because with my provide doing redirect to a land line is free. I always redirect my GSM number to home, when I am home and work, when I am at work Jul 25 21:05:54 so this has nothing to do with modem/gsm chipset at all Jul 25 21:06:47 are you talking gsm voice or gprs data for the handoff? Jul 25 21:06:51 hads: but with GPS in the phone, I would automate that :-) Jul 25 21:06:53 hhf423, i read that some carriers count redirection against your minutes Jul 25 21:07:00 hhf423, it was either tmobile or att Jul 25 21:07:07 if gsm voice, what incentive does the carrier have? Jul 25 21:07:17 daMaestro: most do. but mine does not Jul 25 21:07:26 lowers their cost/congestions Jul 25 21:07:26 Time to sleep. Night folks. Jul 25 21:07:35 night Jul 25 21:07:38 nn Jul 25 21:07:41 stefan_schmidt: night Jul 25 21:07:45 stefan_schmidt - Good night. Jul 25 21:07:46 hhf423: Ah OK. You don't get that here AFAIK, but you can get free calls between mobiles so if you can route mobile calls from your home/office through the gateway then you can save money. Jul 25 21:07:49 if gprs, even edge is not low latency dependable enough Jul 25 21:07:59 must be 3G or better Jul 25 21:08:26 then you have to worry about the ip address changing Jul 25 21:08:33 hhf423: And traditional GSM gateways are expensive (I sell them). Jul 25 21:08:51 when i drive around listening to internet radio stations sometimes the connection is reset and i get another ip address Jul 25 21:09:01 hads: yes, they are Jul 25 21:09:40 hhf423: And doing it with a phone (if you can do it well) would be a good thing as it's always the same number. Jul 25 21:11:44 hads: yes. I mean, if then mobile would use WLAN to hand over the GSM incoming call to my VoIP box at home, I could take the call with my normal phone and the caller would pay GSM rate (which is maybe flat for him) Jul 25 21:12:07 hhf423: Exactly :) Jul 25 21:12:28 hads: and with WLAN there is not much of a lag issue. the phone must just be fast enough to encode from GSM to VoIP and then hand over Jul 25 21:12:48 but probably the neo is fast enough for that Jul 25 21:13:18 Yeah, it should be fast enough to transcode one call, if it's even nessecary. Jul 25 21:13:30 is there a way to detect whether the gsm call is "in network"? Jul 25 21:13:43 that's going to burn up the battery fast though Jul 25 21:13:48 for carriers where mobile-to-mobile is free? Jul 25 21:14:17 then we could just use P1 as gateways when P2 is released :) Jul 25 21:14:46 hads: even with the developer version, when at home, you could plug the neo into and USB hub for charging which also has a WLAN USB attached and then it automagically forwards calls via WLAN/SIP Jul 25 21:15:07 start little GSM/VOIP gateways that people can use Jul 25 21:15:27 that would be sweet Jul 25 21:15:50 * ScaredyCat shakes his head Jul 25 21:16:34 jaebird, awesome. Jul 25 21:16:40 * hhf423 sights, an other day with out a payment mail, let alone a shipping mail Jul 25 21:16:43 jaebird, i might end up doing that (if i go with prepay) Jul 25 21:17:00 why would you reinvent the wheel... Jul 25 21:17:30 why would you not use it as a gateway? Jul 25 21:17:37 there's half a dozen foss apps you can use already Jul 25 21:17:47 prepay + free in-network calling = free phone Jul 25 21:18:36 well.. not free, you have to pay $100 to get ~1000 minutes for a year, but yeah Jul 25 21:18:48 your account will be active for 365 days for $100 Jul 25 21:19:18 all incoming calls would be covered by the 1000 minutes and then you just need to setup some automagic "callback" Jul 25 21:20:01 aka 1) auto answer "hello, we'll call you right back..." [using a synthesized voice] 2) init to the gateway and all the phone number back and *then* ring your device Jul 25 21:20:02 yes, yes, that's not the point - the point is : Jul 25 21:20:02 ] why would you reinvent the wheel... Jul 25 21:20:02 lol Jul 25 21:20:09 for fun. Jul 25 21:20:15 why else would you? Jul 25 21:20:18 fine. Jul 25 21:20:22 ;-) Jul 25 21:20:35 if you like to do that fine. Jul 25 21:20:47 well, sure... that is why i bought a neo ;-) Jul 25 21:20:58 i actually have a lot of other things i want to work on, but yea Jul 25 21:20:59 but only M2M calling is free Jul 25 21:21:06 you're time would be better spent trimming existig apps, yate,freeswitch, asterisk etc Jul 25 21:21:06 jaebird, and? Jul 25 21:21:08 this would force all calls to be M2M Jul 25 21:21:15 whoot! it worked! Thank you stefan! Jul 25 21:21:20 ScaredyCat, yeah.. i know Jul 25 21:21:29 ScaredyCat, i want to see about doing a text to voice gateway Jul 25 21:21:53 ScaredyCat, so you can "answer your phone" and have the user be talking to a synthesized voice Jul 25 21:21:54 lol Jul 25 21:22:20 so you can "read" what the caller wants... and either type back a message or actually answer the call Jul 25 21:23:00 so when someone calls me my phone answers "what do you want?" they say something... then my phone actually rings with the message of what the user wants... and i can 1) answer 2) type a message or 3) take a voice mail Jul 25 21:23:00 lol Jul 25 21:23:03 thats an interesting idea daMaestro Jul 25 21:23:15 would also make the phone usable for deaf/hard of hearing people Jul 25 21:23:19 wider market! Jul 25 21:23:29 ahh, so you mean a *real* use for it ;-) Jul 25 21:23:39 i would want to use it to just piss my friends off Jul 25 21:23:43 lol, well, as a hard of hearing person... this would be awesome. Jul 25 21:23:58 i'm too lazy to answer my phone.. so i make my phone talk to you Jul 25 21:23:58 daMaestro: you could take the viavoice SDK and do that. Pipe voice recording into VV -> text -> display or whatever Jul 25 21:24:04 the ultimate mobile spite! Jul 25 21:24:11 hhf423, very much so Jul 25 21:24:15 is it small enough? Jul 25 21:24:22 probably not Jul 25 21:24:36 and I do not know if there is a ix version Jul 25 21:25:07 although that software was (or maybe is) available for AIX Jul 25 21:25:57 take a look at cepstral Jul 25 21:25:59 night Jul 25 21:26:07 it just really would be great to be able to say "hmmm... oh *she* is calling" *presses receptionist button* ("hot" female computer voice) "mr. damaestro's office; what do you want!" Jul 25 21:26:16 and then her response would show up as text on my screen Jul 25 21:26:55 why wouldn't it just play through the speaker Jul 25 21:26:59 and if it's not "meet at my place in 5 minutes" *presses take a message button* "i'm sorry, mr. damaestro is not available right now. leave a message" *beep* Jul 25 21:27:00 lol Jul 25 21:27:20 ScaredyCat, sure... that could be an option too Jul 25 21:27:24 wow, emacs does everything. Turns out there's a plugin for emacs that does voice->text and text->voice Jul 25 21:27:27 but then, why not just answer the phone ;-) Jul 25 21:27:27 lol Jul 25 21:27:56 I mean... emacs is practically an OS all its own. XD Jul 25 21:28:12 ZerothCloned: there is a reason why some people answer the question "whats your favirite OS" with "emacs" Jul 25 21:28:28 ah, too late :-) Jul 25 21:28:54 well, its definitely obvious why now. Jul 25 21:32:28 so did they actually ship more than 4 ? Jul 25 21:35:47 we hope Jul 25 21:36:39 I'll sacrifice an other penguin at midnight to favour the gods to make my neo ship this week Jul 25 21:37:20 surely you sacrifice a god to the penguin Jul 25 21:37:25 I needed to sacrifice only two penguins to make the shop acceppt my order Jul 25 21:37:50 heh Jul 25 21:37:53 ah, yes. gods, some lame windows users from the street, stuff like that Jul 25 21:38:16 lol Jul 25 21:38:28 22 mins to midnight. I hope the wife did sharpen the knife Jul 25 21:38:59 I have a ntp synced clock for just that purpose Jul 25 21:39:37 which reminds me: I want ntp sync on the neo and TZ setting based on GPS location. Jul 25 21:39:53 then again; i think GPS also provides time, no? Jul 25 21:40:00 can't you get a better time from gps anyway? Jul 25 21:40:10 yeah, think so, too Jul 25 21:40:21 the treo 650 sets it's timezone from cdma clocks Jul 25 21:40:26 which is quite nice Jul 25 21:40:32 yes, and you can get it to give you the timezoe offset too Jul 25 21:40:42 (gps) Jul 25 21:40:45 ah, that would be nice Jul 25 21:41:00 so as you move about, time flies Jul 25 21:41:54 ok, got to go, set up the candles for the sacrifice and such. talk to you all tomorrow. Jul 25 21:46:14 is anyone at OSCON with a P1 that I can look at? Jul 25 21:49:31 don-o: apparently there is a BoF session Jul 25 21:49:44 there was a mail about it on the list Jul 25 21:53:25 rwhitby: thanks. Jul 25 21:54:17 Where were the limited number of phones to be sold from? It was somewhere on the ML, but I can't find it. Jul 25 21:55:11 the P1_Owners page shows two shipment notices and one receipt of hardware. Jul 25 21:55:17 don-o: I think the BoF time was changed to tonight (mailing list post said tomorrow) Jul 25 21:55:34 charkins: yeah i found the schedule. its tonight, 8:30pm Jul 25 21:55:44 i may see you there then :-) Jul 25 21:55:59 charkins: cool! :) Jul 25 21:56:15 dunno if there will be a phone there though Jul 25 21:56:47 charkins: i have a feeling the powers of nerddom will conjure up a phone Jul 25 22:00:16 im scanning the mailing list for a subject of "OMG! I GOTZ MY NEO" Jul 25 22:00:20 but i dont see anything Jul 25 22:00:31 don-o - have logs? Jul 25 22:00:33 of here Jul 25 22:00:44 SpeedEvil: yeah, i should backscroll? how far? Jul 25 22:00:52 Earlier, there was a UPS tracking number posted. Jul 25 22:00:58 And it was finally delivered Jul 25 22:01:05 I changed the topic at that time Jul 25 22:01:18 Umm. Jul 25 22:01:21 SpeedEvil: oh ok. cool. Jul 25 22:01:51 18:08 Jul 25 22:01:51 http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?HTMLVersi Jul 25 22:01:59 hehehehehe Jul 25 22:02:01 ... Jul 25 22:06:22 /me's girlfriend called and said a UPS package showed up Jul 25 22:06:29 woohoo! my phone is going to be delivered today! Jul 25 22:06:44 update P1 page Jul 25 22:06:46 pls Jul 25 22:06:49 and I got all excited.. but it was only a case I ordered for my treo :-< Jul 25 22:06:50 charkins, where... where are you getting this information? Jul 25 22:06:55 will do once i get notified its delivered Jul 25 22:06:57 hehe Jul 25 22:07:00 gratz Jul 25 22:07:06 UPS tracking numbers have been emailed. Jul 25 22:07:09 For a select few. Jul 25 22:07:10 daMaestro: got e-mail with tracking number, package is in transit Jul 25 22:07:14 You can track those on the website. Jul 25 22:07:25 charkins: update the P1 page that you have a tracking number Jul 25 22:07:28 Woohoo! Work visa approved! Jul 25 22:07:38 SpeedEvil, i've not gotten a notice Jul 25 22:07:40 so that sucks Jul 25 22:07:42 unfortunately i'm at oscon, so I won't see it for a few days Jul 25 22:08:33 charkins ;) Jul 25 22:13:31 charkins, from: with the standard 'via RT'? Jul 25 22:14:21 mmazur: yup Jul 25 22:15:37 two messages, one that says the issue is resolved (obviously an artifact of using a ticket tracking system for tracking orders), then a second with a ups tracking number (both w/ the via RT from:) Jul 25 22:16:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Web_Browser]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Iowa-Ames]] [[Guitar_Tuning]] [[Wishlist:EggTimer]] [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Music_Player]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Ede]] [[Translation]] and other changes Jul 25 22:19:31 * Elrond wonders, when we will see a new build on buildhost Jul 25 22:25:13 elrond hehe Jul 25 22:25:19 2 weeks? Jul 25 22:25:21 counter? Jul 25 22:25:22 (last update 2007-07-21 06:20) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Shipping prob. 75% in a day 06:47:16 (1.283±1.3 days) (1778;251) Jul 25 22:26:14 Hi ckuethe Jul 25 22:26:37 EHLO Jul 25 22:32:13 * mokobot mugs Jason1 for his neo and gives it to ScaredyCat Jul 25 22:33:19 *g* Jul 25 22:33:55 * hozer obsessively reloads his online CCard statement again Jul 25 22:35:13 got ssh working finally Jul 25 22:35:31 woo Jul 25 22:35:36 Jason1: how's the phone doing? Jul 25 22:36:01 ferric: Its more of a paper weight at the moment, however I am making progress Jul 25 22:36:13 cool Jul 25 22:36:19 Jason1: how functional is the image it comes with? can it make or take calls? Jul 25 22:37:05 ha, I understand DBus much better now. Jul 25 22:37:14 ferric: It is now booting, i can ssh into it. Still have not made a call. Now that I can ssh instead of terminal w/ the stylus, I shoul be able to figure out why gmsd is not working Jul 25 22:37:48 right Jul 25 22:37:53 restart it Jul 25 22:45:27 Elrond: From what I gather the buildhost will start updating again when the new GUI is merged into trunk Jul 25 22:47:12 Jason1: btw, congrats on getting the first phone ;-) Jul 25 22:47:39 cesarb: Thanks. I am stoked Jul 25 22:49:13 we have a retail phone out there? awesome Jul 25 22:49:36 bmidgley: Yup :): Jul 25 22:49:58 i've had a developer p1 for a few weeks Jul 25 22:50:08 Anyone know if this line: ".now, you'll end up with system that boots, but does not see audio/SD card. You'll need to download corresponding modules.tgz and copy them over to openmoko." is relevant on the GTA01 phones? Jul 25 22:50:18 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko Jul 25 22:51:08 hopefully it'll get somewhere with lots of devel and end-user feedback Jul 25 22:51:51 Jason1: check /lib/modules Jul 25 22:51:57 Jason1: also "lsmod" Jul 25 22:52:08 jason ls -la /lib/modules Jul 25 22:52:10 right Jul 25 22:52:10 Jason1: if it loaded the modules, shouldn't be a problem Jul 25 22:52:16 there are no modules per default Jul 25 22:52:25 Jason1: I filed a bug on that and in recent images it seems to work out of the box Jul 25 22:52:26 modules need for sound and mmc card Jul 25 22:52:41 both on audio and sd Jul 25 22:52:58 * cesarb thinks that, for an embedded device like this one, all the hardware should be built-in, not compiled as modules Jul 25 22:53:06 sd is working. not sure about sound. have note *heard* a peep from it :) Jul 25 22:53:07 boot with a card and it should appear on /media/card Jul 25 22:53:25 yeah. SD is recognized Jul 25 22:53:37 a few revs ago there was a startup sound but it either regressed or someone got annoyed and killed it Jul 25 22:53:41 Jason1: I wouldn't be surprised if ALSA boots muted... IIRC, it mutes the sound "card" by default Jul 25 22:54:07 looks like the sounds modules are loaded too... So, general consuses is "not needed" then? Jul 25 22:54:15 Jason1: yep Jul 25 22:54:34 there is a note on the wiki about playing an mp3 through the headset... you should try it Jul 25 22:54:40 i couldn't get stereo sound out Jul 25 22:54:40 Jason1: a lot of the wiki pages are either outdated or flat out wrong, take them with a grain of salt Jul 25 22:55:00 Jason1: it came with the stereo headset right? Jul 25 22:55:16 cesarb: LOL. I know. Im kinda on new ground here :) Jul 25 22:56:22 bmidgley: Yup :) Jul 25 22:58:05 any have any isights into libgsmd-tool? I have restart gsmd and it appears to be running, but libgsmd-tool wont start. It replies "Can't connect to gsmd" Jul 25 22:59:36 damn I cant spell tonight Jul 25 23:01:05 jason1: could you write to the wiki what you have done to get the p1 from "delivery" status to a "running" (or walking :-) ) system ? Jul 25 23:01:59 bug_: Yeah, I plan to. I have been keeping notes. There is a fairly good guide at: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko that just needs a little updating Jul 25 23:02:00 (if the wiki is wrong or outdated)) Jul 25 23:02:24 cool ! thanks!!! Jul 25 23:03:36 Jason1: a good way to test audio... http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#Phase0_Quick_Start Jul 25 23:07:36 we need an mp3 that just has someone say "right" out the right spk and then "left" out the left Jul 25 23:07:45 no one believes me the audio comes out mono Jul 25 23:17:04 FYI, found my problem w/ gsmd: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=627 Jul 25 23:35:41 sooo, can i assume that seeing as how i have *not* gotten my shipping tracking number that my phone did not ship? Jul 25 23:35:52 even though i have been billed? Jul 25 23:50:13 daMaestro: All may not be lost. My tracking number came this morning even though my device shipped yesterday afternoon. By the time FIC sent my tracking number, it already showed as "Out for Delivery" Jul 25 23:51:20 ahh cool Jul 25 23:51:31 yes, i was bitching that you would never show back up ;-) Jul 25 23:51:54 lol. I had too. the device doesnt work out of the box :) Jul 25 23:52:06 i'm just trying to track down if there are other issues with my order Jul 25 23:52:06 Jason1: perhaps they were sending all the boxes before starting adding the tracking numbers to RT? Jul 25 23:52:12 the charge is still in "pre-auth" state Jul 25 23:52:17 cesarb: exactly... Jul 25 23:52:40 daMaestro: Did your CC company contact you? Jul 25 23:53:00 * cesarb hopes when it comes to his turn they already fine-tuned the process... so I will only have to find out how to deal with the customs to pay the 60% tax Jul 25 23:53:54 Jason1, yes Jul 25 23:54:01 Jason1, they actually turned off my card Jul 25 23:54:02 lol Jul 25 23:54:11 daMaestro: Mine too. Jul 25 23:54:12 Jason1, but i called them and authorized the charge Jul 25 23:54:34 daMaestro: Someone was saying that they didnt call back fast enough, and the CC company denied the charge Jul 25 23:54:54 the charge must look really fishy to the cc company Jul 25 23:55:21 I never buy international... Jul 25 23:56:05 from US... my first i'l charge was a cash advance in Helsinki with no questions asked Jul 25 23:56:23 I didn't even buy the airline tickets so they couldn't guess I was there Jul 25 23:56:40 bmidgley: go figure... Jul 25 23:57:47 daMaestro: My CC's transaction is still pending ("authorized") too and they say if its not done in 6 more days they will release it Jul 25 23:58:01 Do we have to do anything? Jul 25 23:58:20 Do you know how many were shipped yesterday? Jul 25 23:59:29 calamous_: Wiki indicates not many,,,, Jul 25 23:59:58 Yeah. I hope mine was shipped today, but i havent got an email yet Jul 26 00:00:10 Jason1: you got your email this morning that it was shipped right? Jul 26 00:00:27 calamous_: yup. Jul 26 00:00:39 Jason1: i cleaned up http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem#Phase0_Quick_Start so it would be a simpler test Jul 26 00:00:52 looksl ike "Casey Harkins" will receives his today... Jul 26 00:01:19 I put an mp3 on my sd card for audio testing Jul 26 00:01:21 bmidgley: Awesome. I will give it a try afterwhile. Ill let you know how it goes Jul 26 00:06:43 Jason1: what was your CC charge-ship time? Jul 26 00:08:39 SpeedEvil: Too long :) Jul 26 00:08:52 SpeedEvil: My card was charged last Wednesday Jul 26 00:12:14 SpeedEvil: but then, he's an statistical anomaly Jul 26 00:12:34 SpeedEvil: one of the two which were the only ones charged in a specific day Jul 26 00:12:36 yeah, it took a couple more daysbefore they charged ANYONE else. Jul 26 00:12:56 cesarb: beat me to it :) Jul 26 00:12:56 Jason1: didn't they charge the second guy the following day? Jul 26 00:13:11 Jason1: followed by two more guys in the third day Jul 26 00:13:52 And then, the rest started on the fourth day... Jul 26 00:14:38 bmidgley: FYI, im listening to Bon Jovi - Blaze of Glory on my Neo :) Jul 26 00:16:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Audio_Subsystem]] [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[Hear_Me_FIC]] [[Talk:Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[Toolchain/it]] [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] Jul 26 00:16:20 ok the latest openmoko checkout builds again Jul 26 00:16:26 "Im going down in a blaze of glorrryyyy....." Jul 26 00:17:00 i wish OE did parallel stuff better though... i get a 1:1 cpu time usage on my opty Jul 26 00:18:35 it'd be rather sad to have a core 2 quad and only have a 120% load or something like that Jul 26 00:19:34 happycube: you could try using distcc... perhaps you could trick distcc into running two instances in the same computer ;-) Jul 26 00:19:42 my headset is defective :( Jul 26 00:19:53 :/ Jul 26 00:19:57 How? Jul 26 00:20:30 one of the ear bud leads is only 6 inches while the other is 15-16 inched Jul 26 00:20:43 isn't that normal? Jul 26 00:21:00 cjb_ie: really? seems odd Jul 26 00:21:01 Jason1: some earphones are like that Jul 26 00:21:08 Jason1: they are really asymetrical Jul 26 00:21:23 cesarb - hummm... i supposedly added -j2 to the local.conf Jul 26 00:21:39 cesarb: for people with asymetrical heads? Jul 26 00:21:40 a lot of it is that it dosen't do background downloading Jul 26 00:21:43 * cesarb has seen these kinds of earphones before, but never used one... Jul 26 00:22:45 * cxreg looking forward to seeing the GTA01B_v4 at the BoF tonight Jul 26 00:22:50 Jason1: I don't know WHY they do that, since symetrical is more logical, but I've seen that kind of thing before Jul 26 00:22:50 :) Jul 26 00:22:52 cesarb: interesting. i'll have to reaseach the reasoning behind it... Jul 26 00:23:16 cesarb: thought maybe the chinese kids in the factory had gotten lazy :) Jul 26 00:23:30 Jason1: there's also the big headsets with over-the-head headbands, which are often asymetrical (there's only one lead, on one of the sides) Jul 26 00:23:36 i think the loger side should go around your neck Jul 26 00:23:58 * hozer wonders how to interface with mutt Jul 26 00:23:58 bug_: like a noose? Jul 26 00:24:11 bug_: ohhh.... around hte back of the neck. Jul 26 00:24:27 now that makes perfect sense! Jul 26 00:24:27 jason1: yes Jul 26 00:24:53 Im very glad that my sound stuff works. Jul 26 00:25:12 good quality? Jul 26 00:25:14 Jason1: er... are you sure? Jul 26 00:25:19 Jason1: did you test the _mic_? Jul 26 00:25:24 * hozer wonders if the accelerometer + button could be used to generate fake keypresses to use mutt as a mail viewer Jul 26 00:25:31 Jason1: if you didn't, you cannot say the sound stuff works ;-) Jul 26 00:26:41 cesarb: didnt test hte mic. just played an MP3 Jul 26 00:26:59 cesarb: correction. the sound *output* stuff works :) Jul 26 00:27:05 Jason1: heh Jul 26 00:27:24 Jason1: in all five different output paths? Jul 26 00:27:30 :D Jul 26 00:27:31 cesarb: kma Jul 26 00:27:39 hehe Jul 26 00:27:40 Jason1: ? Jul 26 00:27:46 kiss my ass Jul 26 00:27:49 ah Jul 26 00:28:31 question: after you build with mokomakefile, where does the resulting image reside? Jul 26 00:28:44 (the five output paths: the stereo speakers, the mono phone speaker, the headset, the bluetooth module, and the GSM modem... did I forget any?) Jul 26 00:28:49 Jason1: tmp/deploy Jul 26 00:29:05 Jason1: build/tmp/deploy/images Jul 26 00:29:36 perfect. time to re-flash :) Jul 26 00:29:56 Jason1: according to flash.sh, it seems the rootfs is openmoko-*.rootfs.jffs2 Jul 26 00:30:09 Jason1: the kernel uImage-2.6.*-fic-gta01.bin Jul 26 00:30:31 Jason1: and the uboot u-boot-gta01b*.bin, if you are feeling lucky ;-) Jul 26 00:30:34 cesarb: yup. I did it once when i got hte phone, but hte public images are out of date, and break the gsm modem functionality Jul 26 00:31:02 yeah, not touching uboot :) Jul 26 00:31:55 Doesn't uboot include the magic first NAND block which you can use only 1000 times? Jul 26 00:32:58 'only' 1000 times? Jul 26 00:33:07 s/use/erase/ Jul 26 00:33:28 isn't it more like 10,000 ? Jul 26 00:33:48 hozer: well, it's 1000 times with _no_ bit errors (i.e. no need for ECC) Jul 26 00:33:56 hozer: none of the other blocks have that guarantee, BUT Jul 26 00:34:14 ah Jul 26 00:34:23 hozer: you cannot use ECC on the first block, since it's the CPU's builtin bootloader which reads it, and it doesn't grok the ECC stuff Jul 26 00:34:33 It's only guaranteed for 1000 times. Jul 26 00:34:52 hozer: so, even if it's guaranteed to be a high-quality block of flash, it ends up being the one which will endure the least erase cycles... Jul 26 00:34:55 The rest of the memory is guaranteed to have at least the sticker capacity after you've written each block 100000 times. Jul 26 00:35:23 It is _not_ guaranteed that all blocks will last 100K writes - there are large numbers of spare blocks. Jul 26 00:35:39 yeah Jul 26 00:35:51 the first block goes above that by having an extra 1000 guaranteed cycles without ECC Jul 26 00:36:06 But if the first block goes, you're kind of screwed. Jul 26 00:36:10 how many bit ECC? Jul 26 00:36:17 is that completely up to the filesystem drivers? Jul 26 00:36:32 * cesarb wonders how long until these CPUs start having a "smart" builtin bootloader which can grok the ECC stuff Jul 26 00:36:52 we've already got bootloaders with crypto Jul 26 00:36:57 hozer: in theory yes, in practice you need at least a certain level of ECC to be able to get what you paid for Jul 26 00:37:38 cesarb: the ECC is over 512 or so bytes, right? Jul 26 00:38:07 probably someone will write a bootloader that jumps to another block that reads another block, does the ECC and exec()'s that Jul 26 00:38:15 hozer: yeah... I don't recall the block size, but it has an extra 16 bytes for each block Jul 26 00:38:32 so the first stage gets written maybe half a dozen times Jul 26 00:38:48 then you can scribble all over the rest of flash Jul 26 00:39:09 is there any doc about the filesystem structure? are there partitions? where are those mounted? is there something going to sd-card by default? Jul 26 00:39:10 ckuethe: hm, interesting idea... perhaps uboot already does something like that ;-) (i.e. do not write the first block, since it doesn't change much) Jul 26 00:39:23 it's like MBRs Jul 26 00:39:29 mdt: nothing goes to the sd card by default Jul 26 00:39:37 mdt: and the doc on the partitions is on the wiki Jul 26 00:39:43 just enough magic in sector 0 to jump to something smarter in sector 1-4 Jul 26 00:39:46 where does ipkg install? Jul 26 00:39:51 mdt: only one of the partitions is mounted, on / Jul 26 00:39:55 just enough magic in sector 1-4 to ... whatever Jul 26 00:40:07 mdt: the other ones are (IIRC) uboot, uboot-env, kernel, splash Jul 26 00:40:58 * hozer goes home Jul 26 00:41:38 cesarb, can you tell me where in the wiki? Jul 26 00:41:49 from the flash.sh used to flash the qemu fake neo: Jul 26 00:41:50 setenv mtdparts mtdparts=neo1973-nand:0x00050000(u-boot),0x00004000(u-boot_env), Jul 26 00:41:50 0x00208000(kernel),0x00010000(splash),0x039a4000(rootfs) Jul 26 00:43:48 mdt: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NAND_bad_blocks Jul 26 00:44:01 mdt: all the information you would want to know about the NAND management of the neo is there ;-) Jul 26 00:45:20 cesarb, yes, about nand, i was interested in fs structure... i.e. where are packages installed via ipkg? Jul 26 00:48:09 mdt: I'd guess they would be strewn (sp?) around all the /, much like with dpkg Jul 26 00:48:10 download complete. rebooting. I can feel my first telephone call nearing! Jul 26 00:48:38 but isn't / ro? Jul 26 00:48:44 mdt: no Jul 26 00:48:48 mdt: it's rw Jul 26 00:49:05 mdt: else, where would you store data like your contacts? Jul 26 00:49:07 oups... that's nice ;) Jul 26 00:49:13 sd-card? :D Jul 26 00:49:28 mdt: it should work without one ;-) Jul 26 00:50:02 mdt: (and a sd-card is a lousy place to put contacts... it's better for the MP3 you will hear on the bus to work and the PDF you will read on the bus to work) Jul 26 00:50:03 but if you have 100.000 write cycles thats very fast reached... Jul 26 00:50:15 mdt: not with wear leveling Jul 26 00:50:29 mdt: (go read about wear leveling on wikipedia) Jul 26 00:50:58 :D thnx just wanted to ask Jul 26 00:52:35 mdt: in fact, with a sufficiently large flash and a sufficiently slow flash interface and a sufficiently large number of erase cycles, you can multiply all the numbers and find out it will take _years_ for it to wear out even if you write at the maximum possible rate Jul 26 00:53:09 okay, so that is transparent for the app as long as i use another fs than say ext3? Jul 26 00:53:39 Yes. Jul 26 00:53:58 (i write a app that uses sqlite3 for lots of writes - that would be okay?) Jul 26 00:53:59 SD - the blocks are wear leveled internally. Jul 26 00:54:02 mdt: on the neo builtin flash, the wear leveling is managed by the jffs2 filesystem, and on the sd card, it's the card itself which manages the wear leveling Jul 26 00:54:09 So you can in fact use ext2 Jul 26 00:54:14 and swap to it without issue. Jul 26 00:54:16 mdt: well, you'll have to do the calculation I outlined above ;-) Jul 26 00:54:52 consider that you can make 100K writes to a block. Jul 26 00:55:00 This is one write a second for a day. Jul 26 00:55:36 so the internal store has another filesystem? jffs?2? Jul 26 00:55:47 So 100 writes/second wears out 50Kbytes or so of flash a day. Jul 26 00:55:58 Which is a long time in a 2G card Jul 26 00:56:25 and the space is just decreasing? Jul 26 00:56:28 No Jul 26 00:57:09 It doesn't break until all the blocks are 'used'. Jul 26 00:57:51 As it's wear leveled. Jul 26 00:58:08 strange stuff for me as a software developer ;) Jul 26 00:58:17 mdt: it has spare blocks Jul 26 00:58:44 has anyone look into the UBI in the 2.6.22 kernel Jul 26 00:58:53 i.e. speaking of wear leveling Jul 26 00:58:53 mdt: and it can move blocks around so an almost-failing block can get the nonchanging data, freeing the less-used blocks for the changing data Jul 26 00:59:27 cesarb, but again: for the internal nand is this done by linux? Jul 26 00:59:35 ...say by the fs driver? Jul 26 00:59:37 writchie: I think I saw an article about it on lkml Jul 26 00:59:49 this is a better long term solution Jul 26 00:59:58 jffs2 is pretty ugly Jul 26 01:00:00 mdt: on the internal flash of the neo, yes, it's the jffs2 filesystem; on the sd card, no, it's the card itself Jul 26 01:00:24 ubi moves the wear leveling and bad block stuff to a separate layer Jul 26 01:00:29 writchie: well, it's another layer of abstraction... all problems in computing can be solved by adding another layer of abstraction Jul 26 01:00:37 unless your problem is too many layers of abstraction Jul 26 01:00:45 cesarb, :) Jul 26 01:00:45 cesarb: unless... oh Jul 26 01:01:13 SpeedEvil: sorry, should've delayed the second part of the quote so other people would complete it ;-) Jul 26 01:01:21 cesarb, you sound like an java developer... Jul 26 01:01:53 mdt: :) Jul 26 01:01:59 SpeedEvil: do you ever sleep or are you a bot Jul 26 01:02:29 writchie: I saw someone else asking that yesterday on my backlog ;-) Jul 26 01:02:31 cesarb, if you are interested i can send a hammer factory to you ;) Jul 26 01:02:52 turing test candidate Jul 26 01:04:11 are there any plans to port openmoko to the greenphone? Jul 26 01:05:49 * SpeedEvil is a bot. Jul 26 01:10:19 Well, I just completed my first Neo call. sorta. It was via the command-line, and the Neo mic wouldnt work, and the external speaker on the Neo produced feedback, but technically, the 2 phones connected, and transmitted my voice :) Jul 26 01:10:23 I have a pre-July Neo1973 but I'm new to using the phone. Jul 26 01:10:30 Jason1, Sweet! Jul 26 01:10:31 :) Jul 26 01:10:39 anyone know if there is an openembedded package for courier-imap? I only seem to be able to find cyrus-imapd Jul 26 01:10:50 Psst dovecot is better! (-; Jul 26 01:11:04 I'm trying to upgrade the rootfs and kernel on here but the phone's bootloader told me, "Bad partition 1". Jul 26 01:11:07 I am already using courier-imap Jul 26 01:11:17 so it would be easier to just install that and move everything over Jul 26 01:11:21 I'm using ext2. Does the partition have to be of different type than 82, which is the default Linux type? Jul 26 01:11:35 and I can't find dovecot in the OE packages either Jul 26 01:11:38 Jason1, gratulation! did i understand that right that the voice data is transported by the arm processor? Jul 26 01:12:18 Jason1: nice...envy Jul 26 01:12:25 :) Jul 26 01:12:58 did you get the shipped notify after you received it? Jul 26 01:15:48 hello all Jul 26 01:21:33 SpeedEvil: looking at the PM Wiki pages - why is BT powered off. We need this is wake us up? Jul 26 01:22:28 Just realizedthat I had not opened my Neo pouch yet:) Jul 26 01:22:36 Looks like dfu-util Jul 26 01:22:45 is the easiest way to flash a new rootfs on, right? Jul 26 01:22:59 Know what would be a good way to get the Neo well-accepted in Us/Canada? Basically, one or two companies that provide business centric apps and corporate servers for push email and other uses. Of course, all open-source, but the money is in the service contracts ;-) Jul 26 01:23:01 paulproteus: Yeah. It really isnt that painful Jul 26 01:23:07 Sounds great. Jul 26 01:24:12 writchie: err - what do you mean? Jul 26 01:24:35 The CPU has to be on to run the bluetooth chip as I understand it. Jul 26 01:25:08 In 'fast' mode - which I _think_ means 100mW or so of total consumption. Jul 26 01:25:18 (at the slowest clock availbale) Jul 26 01:25:23 with GSM on Jul 26 01:25:33 Maybe he meant why is the bt off by default? Jul 26 01:26:04 Which means a maximum battery life of 40h with bluetooth on. Jul 26 01:26:12 Optimistically. Jul 26 01:26:23 How do I get the phone into DFU mode? Jul 26 01:26:29 Turn off bluetooth, and you also can turn off hte CPU Jul 26 01:26:31 In the bootloader it seems to be in runtime mode. Jul 26 01:26:54 assuming no music, no calls, no wireless, no touching the screen... what is the battery life for normal usage? does anyone know? Jul 26 01:27:01 dropping it to some 30mW (GSM modem onlu) - taking it to some 5-6 days. Jul 26 01:27:13 It's almost meaningless. Jul 26 01:27:25 There is very little meaningfull powersaving ATM. Jul 26 01:27:41 any power-throttling? Jul 26 01:27:43 But on the order of 4-5 hours. Jul 26 01:27:45 No. Jul 26 01:27:55 It can be done - but not yet. Jul 26 01:28:11 (Oh, dfu-util does it for me re: putting the device into DFU mode.) Jul 26 01:28:14 That's nice of it! Jul 26 01:28:16 *nods* Thanks SpeedEvil Jul 26 01:28:48 BT stuff doesn't sound right. Jul 26 01:29:11 the CSR4 should have a wake up to the CPU Jul 26 01:29:38 as long as we are not hosting and parking slaves Jul 26 01:29:49 It's connected over USB Jul 26 01:30:07 The CPU needs to be running to listen to it. Jul 26 01:30:08 even in USB there is a bit of an unconventional PM scheme as I recall Jul 26 01:30:25 Well - anyway. Jul 26 01:30:34 There is no mention of wake on bluetooth event. Jul 26 01:30:36 But if a BT connection comes in we would have to wake up Jul 26 01:30:45 Not if bluetooth is off. Jul 26 01:31:03 why BT off - it should only need about 5mw Jul 26 01:31:23 It's 20-30mW or so to run the reciever typically. Jul 26 01:31:55 not in low power mode Jul 26 01:32:07 There has been no mention of wake signals from the BT module that can wake the CPU. Jul 26 01:32:28 This would of course be nice, but... Jul 26 01:32:30 IMO. Jul 26 01:32:40 OK let me look at the CSR docs - do you know a chip number other than 4 series Jul 26 01:32:53 2 day life with BT on isn't horrible. Jul 26 01:32:58 BT must be always on. Jul 26 01:33:10 my p800 does about 4 days even with phone calls once in a while Jul 26 01:33:28 BT must be always on - in your opinion. Jul 26 01:33:33 yes imho Jul 26 01:33:42 my use cases Jul 26 01:33:45 It may not be setup that way. Jul 26 01:33:53 then P# Jul 26 01:33:56 P3 Jul 26 01:34:02 P3? Jul 26 01:34:05 Oh Jul 26 01:34:09 probably, yes. Jul 26 01:34:23 BT is ten years old. Jul 26 01:34:28 That's an obvious fix. Jul 26 01:34:42 imho bluetooth should not always be on Jul 26 01:34:51 it should be something the user decides to turn on or not Jul 26 01:34:56 for several years the continuous on problem has been solved. Jul 26 01:35:03 It should be settable to be always on without a major battery hit. Jul 26 01:35:03 subline: of course Jul 26 01:35:25 hello, LaF0rge Jul 26 01:35:37 didnt you just say it should always be on Jul 26 01:35:40 so Jason1 made his first call? Jul 26 01:35:47 With AT commands... Jul 26 01:35:49 :) Jul 26 01:35:55 ferric: yup Jul 26 01:35:56 First paid-user-call. Jul 26 01:35:59 BT should be always on to support many typical use cases Jul 26 01:36:04 very nice. Jul 26 01:36:08 ok, gotcha Jul 26 01:36:13 congrats, Jason1 Jul 26 01:36:20 the dialer doesn't work? Jul 26 01:36:25 hey jason1 Jul 26 01:36:31 i hate you Jul 26 01:36:36 LaF0rge: would you happen to know if the BT module can wake the CPU? and Congrats! Jul 26 01:36:41 SpeedEvil: Gota little better since then Completed a call via GUI. Once I turned down the volume in alsamixer, the feedback subsided. The GUI crashed however... Jul 26 01:36:53 sublime_: likewise :) Jul 26 01:36:58 lol Jul 26 01:37:01 <3 Jul 26 01:37:20 the international symbol of hate? Jul 26 01:37:25 So does the dialer app work for anyone? Jul 26 01:37:29 my credit card was rejected and they never told me Jul 26 01:37:33 i.e., should I try compiling a fresher image? (-: Jul 26 01:37:44 ferric: barely. I did make a call, but it crashed once I tried to press "hangup" Jul 26 01:37:44 Jason1, Oh, hah! Jul 26 01:38:03 lol, Jason1. Jul 26 01:38:40 well, its better than nothin' Jul 26 01:38:45 gsmd would not work at all on the July 4th image that is published on buildhost Jul 26 01:39:00 ferric: I have a feeling these rough edges will be smoothed quickly Jul 26 01:39:12 I also played an MP3 :) Jul 26 01:39:19 you talk to any of the P0 ppl? Jul 26 01:39:32 no. Jul 26 01:39:50 One thing I have not tried is the GPS. anyone know how to get some output out of it? Jul 26 01:39:52 * ferric wonders what image everyone else is using Jul 26 01:40:35 Jason1: do you have a binary 'gllin' ? Jul 26 01:40:35 Jason1, Do you have a newer JFFS2 image? Jul 26 01:40:46 yeah Jul 26 01:40:47 I just flashed the July 4 one and it is quite broken; /usr/lib/libz.so.1 is "too short"! Jul 26 01:40:54 Could I nab a copy? (-: Jul 26 01:40:58 Jason1: you basically run that. Jul 26 01:41:09 Jason1: and it spits out NMEA out a pipe. Jul 26 01:41:16 Jason1: look on GPS on the wiki Jul 26 01:41:23 ohh, no, I cant find that binary. I am running a fresh build from mokomakefile however Jul 26 01:41:39 should it be in /usr/bin? Jul 26 01:41:40 Jason1: got patches yet? :) Jul 26 01:41:43 Well, in that case. A) Find the binary. Jul 26 01:41:50 B) Write open-source driver. Jul 26 01:42:00 SpeedEvil: smart ass :) Jul 26 01:42:13 Did you nuke the original image? Jul 26 01:42:18 Might it have been there? Jul 26 01:42:18 isn't the binary only distributed with the phone Jul 26 01:42:24 that is on the wiki Jul 26 01:42:31 jaebird: AIUI - yes. Jul 26 01:42:31 they don't have it avail to download Jul 26 01:42:45 i read it somewhere Jul 26 01:42:52 i think in the P1 starter page :) Jul 26 01:42:57 damn. thats not good :) Jul 26 01:43:02 haha... Jul 26 01:43:05 :) Jul 26 01:43:09 jk Jul 26 01:43:12 Jason1, Not to bug you too much, but would you give me a copy of the thing you just flashed it with? Jul 26 01:43:30 well...assoon as one of my friends here on #openmoko get their new phone, I am sure one of them will send it to me . hinti, hint Jul 26 01:43:35 Hmm, not as cool as what you guys do, but I wrote hello world for the openmoko phone :D Jul 26 01:43:42 now to get it to run.... Jul 26 01:43:46 paulproteus: sure. you want the kernel and the rootfs? Jul 26 01:43:56 Jason1, Yeah, that'd be great. Jul 26 01:44:13 paulproteus: standby. let me upload them Jul 26 01:44:14 Jason1: sure, I'm sure I could sneak you a copy in 2-3 weeks once I have a phone... Jul 26 01:44:23 is there going to be an up-to-date build host? Jul 26 01:44:53 but to get the agps to work, you have to be able to see the sky Jul 26 01:44:58 SpeedEvil: BlueCore4 has out of band USB_DETACH and USB_WAKE_UP assignable to PIO pins Jul 26 01:45:22 Jason1, Super rad, thanks. Jul 26 01:45:23 writchie: I know. Jul 26 01:45:40 don't know if it made it to the Chinese module Jul 26 01:45:46 writchie: The fun question is - are they connected to anything. Jul 26 01:45:58 * jaebird wonders if people are getting shipping emails yet Jul 26 01:46:03 Err. Jul 26 01:46:08 IIRC, that's not what you want. Jul 26 01:46:15 SpeedEvil: botsnack Jul 26 01:46:21 USB detach is to detach the module from the USB bus. Jul 26 01:46:28 It just electrically pulls it. Jul 26 01:46:38 Oh yeah Jul 26 01:46:48 USB_Wake_up is it. I remember now Jul 26 01:46:52 Umm, how does one bring up the shell in the qemu emulator? Jul 26 01:46:54 The other way. Jul 26 01:47:05 is the USB wall charging issue a thing of the past? Jul 26 01:47:26 jaebird: in theory - for the included charger only. Jul 26 01:47:34 my E2 charges at 500ma from my wall charger right away Jul 26 01:47:47 mine puts out 550ma at 5v is that the same? Jul 26 01:47:57 I intend to fix the 'wall charging issue' when mine arrives. Jul 26 01:48:02 The issue is: Jul 26 01:48:06 its only 2 wire though Jul 26 01:48:15 so no hub thing Jul 26 01:48:18 A USB device should only draw 100mA without authorisation. Jul 26 01:48:32 A dumb device cannot provide authorisation. Jul 26 01:48:42 so how does moto do it in their linux phones? Jul 26 01:48:51 So, a strict interpretation of the rules means that you can only charge at 100mA Jul 26 01:49:11 How does one get a shell up on the qemu emulator of the phone? Jul 26 01:49:33 A slightly looser interpretation of the rules - that assumes a device providing 5V, but not talking USB protocol is not in fact a USB host, but a charger, and to switch to 500mA after a short delay. Jul 26 01:49:52 what if it is just a pc that is locked up? Jul 26 01:50:01 Well - doesn't really matter. Jul 26 01:50:04 a pc that only provides 100ma Jul 26 01:50:22 In that case, the current limit in the bus will kick in, and it'll turn off again. Jul 26 01:50:32 so the USB hardware will always do _something_ if it is smart (not a charger) Jul 26 01:50:47 The big problem is: Jul 26 01:50:58 Plug into a hub that is at its power limit. Jul 26 01:51:01 i thought maybe my wall charger had the data line to gnd or something Jul 26 01:51:19 If you now draw 500mA, it will trip the hub off potentially. Jul 26 01:51:25 * jaebird is not a USB expert Jul 26 01:51:30 This can lose data if you've got hard disks on there. Jul 26 01:51:41 So you don't want to do that. Jul 26 01:51:49 so moto and other vendors are just taking the same risk here? Jul 26 01:51:58 The supplied charger has reportedly a resistor to one datapin. Jul 26 01:51:59 yes. Jul 26 01:52:14 ahh...now that makes sense Jul 26 01:52:39 Practically, you can't put devices which at least won't get damaged by non-compliant stuff out there in the market as hosts. Jul 26 01:52:47 For example, I have a USB nokia charger. Jul 26 01:52:51 so with the presence of the correct resistance, the phone will know it is plugged into a charger. Jul 26 01:52:59 It consists of one 1.8 ohm resistor. Jul 26 01:53:02 But realistically, everyone does, speedevil? Jul 26 01:53:20 ZerothCloned: no - all the hosts are protected enough to not be damaged. Jul 26 01:53:20 i know my moto phone charges fine with a blackberry usb power charger Jul 26 01:53:35 and the 12V lighter charger too Jul 26 01:53:39 belkin brand Jul 26 01:54:04 SpeedEvil: do they use the CEA-936-A standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEA-936-A)? Jul 26 01:54:11 all seem to pull the 500ma (using charging time as my only measure) Jul 26 01:54:17 No. Jul 26 01:54:21 SpeedEvil: AFAIK, the CEA standard uses a resistor on the ID pin Jul 26 01:54:27 I dunno Jul 26 01:54:39 I've forgotten the value. Jul 26 01:54:46 And where it goes. Jul 26 01:55:00 I _think_ it was 48K from ground to D- Jul 26 01:55:57 (that CEA standard, btw, seems interesting... from what I've read when researching the internet to write the article, it can be used as a serial connection, stereo speaker, mono headset, charger, and normal USB OTG, all selected with different resistors on the ID pin) Jul 26 01:56:12 jason1: could you tell if the mp3 playback was stereo? Jul 26 01:56:20 USB OTG gets the 0 ohm and infinite, and the rest get specific ranges of values Jul 26 01:57:32 does any of this related to: http://wiki.openezx.org/EMU Jul 26 01:57:51 paulproteus: http://www.chooseopen.com/openmoko/build Jul 26 01:58:43 bmidgley: I listen to the song twice, in the headphones and the external speakers and and could not detect any difference between the left and right channels. Seems like mono to me... Jul 26 01:59:16 Jason1, Thanks! (-: Jul 26 01:59:33 paulproteus: np Jul 26 02:01:36 jaebird: I believe the Motorola EMU is a superset of the CEA standard Jul 26 02:01:54 jaebird: but, as I failed to find more details on the standard, I'm not sure Jul 26 02:11:03 Jason1, I've flashed your images (kernel and jffs2) onto my phone and am booting now.... Jul 26 02:11:17 paulproteus: sweet Jul 26 02:12:21 Jason1, I still have libz.so.1 problems, it seems. Jul 26 02:12:29 That's curious. Jul 26 02:12:41 "file too short", I'm still told. Jul 26 02:12:55 I'll try reflashing, I guess. Jul 26 02:13:11 paulproteus: during the flashing process? Is the device telling you that or dfu-utils? Jul 26 02:13:16 During boot. Jul 26 02:13:35 The kernel loads fine; lots of programs complain about what I just said during the init process. Jul 26 02:13:40 As a result, X doesn't load, for example. Jul 26 02:13:57 maybe try and onler kernel with the newer rootfs? Jul 26 02:14:02 Jason1: yesssss... I knew it. I am going to make a test mp3 that makes it obvious Jul 26 02:14:03 onler=older Jul 26 02:14:14 (they closed the ticket with "worksforme" status) Jul 26 02:14:18 I'll upgrade u-boot first, I think. Jul 26 02:14:27 bmidgley: ??? Jul 26 02:14:28 bmidgley: I would be happy to try again with a sample track. Note, you may be able to find one online... Jul 26 02:14:43 BryceLeo_Away: mp3 playback is mono Jul 26 02:14:44 wish me luck, compiling a fresh image for the emulator... Jul 26 02:14:49 bmidgley: I usedto have a "bass test" cd along time ago that did that... Jul 26 02:15:04 Jason1: I surfed around and couldn't find anything Jul 26 02:15:11 hmmm Jul 26 02:15:21 gotta go Jul 26 02:15:30 bmidgley|away: lol and they don't belive you? Jul 26 02:15:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[Main_Page]] [[Hear_Me_FIC]] [[User:Superweasel]] Jul 26 02:15:46 bmidgley|away: is that even though the headphones?? wait.. .is there a headphone jack? Jul 26 02:16:04 yes there is a 4-conductor jack for stereo+mic Jul 26 02:16:30 bmidgley|away: any chance it's a problem with your headphone plug? Jul 26 02:16:44 slight chance... Jul 26 02:18:28 bmidgley|away: try making the mp3 to show (just audacity and say "left channel" and "right channel") and then try it yourself, then have someone with a neo try it Jul 26 02:19:59 bmidgley|away: Here is a sample from the 80's (70's?) http://recordbrother.typepad.com/imagesilike/files/stereo_sound_spectacular_side_1.mp3 Jul 26 02:21:03 bmidgley|away: They arent clear as what sound be leftand right, but it is pretty obvious if the output is indeed stereo... Jul 26 02:21:32 gah, f*ing women Jul 26 02:21:40 i'm out again all Jul 26 02:21:42 bye Jul 26 02:21:51 bye Jul 26 02:22:16 Aww, same libz.so.1 error. )-: Jul 26 02:24:34 paulproteus: what version device do you have? Jul 26 02:24:52 GTA01B_V4 says the back Jul 26 02:25:01 Date code: 20070420 ; S/N 000308 Jul 26 02:27:02 paulproteus: Have you ever tried to flash it before? Jul 26 02:27:13 No, this is the first time. Jul 26 02:27:34 Just so we're all on the same page, what happens is that during the init process, many programs pritn: Jul 26 02:27:57 "$progname: error whiel loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/libz.so.1: file too short" Jul 26 02:28:01 while, rather. Jul 26 02:29:07 strange error... Jul 26 02:29:23 I got that both when flashing the buildhost July 4 image as well as Jason1's. Jul 26 02:29:34 when I do make update all with the MokoMakefile, it tells me that my makefile is from the future, so it won't work. XD Jul 26 02:29:46 paulproteus: What didyou try on this last run? Jul 26 02:30:12 Jason1, I flashed it with your u-boot (which said it was from July 8 iirc), and then powered off and on and retried flashing your jffs2. Jul 26 02:32:29 ZerothCloned: sounds like some kinda of date interntionalization issue Jul 26 02:32:37 ldconfig also complains toward the top, "/usr/lib/libz.so.1.2.3 is not an ELF file - it has the wrong magic bytes at the start." Jul 26 02:32:52 paulproteus: very wierd. standby. something just caught my eye Jul 26 02:34:14 Jason1, Something perhaps related? Jul 26 02:35:17 I wasfollowing this thread: http://lists.planet-lab.org/pipermail/users/2005-February/001121.html Jul 26 02:35:17 It looked like it might be realted, but went nowhere... Jul 26 02:41:01 paulproteus: are you testing on a real phone? Jul 26 02:41:32 ferric, Yeah. Jul 26 02:43:06 Umm, the information on the wiki about developing and adding files to the openmoko image seems kind of incomplete. At least, it didn't work for me. Jul 26 02:43:22 nhm, ok Jul 26 02:43:41 I guess I'll retry once more sending the same rootfs that Jason1 is using.... Jul 26 02:44:19 paulproteus: What about mismatching kernels? Maybe go back to an old P0 kernel w/ the new rootfs? Jul 26 02:44:46 I think that there really must be a problem with the rootfs, since it claims to be unhappy about filesystem contents. Jul 26 02:45:11 paulproteus: try the rootfs on qemu to see what happens ;-) Jul 26 02:45:16 I could try an old kernel I guess, but if it needs modules those obviously won't load. Jul 26 02:45:25 paulproteus: Seems like a long short. YOu have tried builds from 2 different environments... Jul 26 02:45:40 cesarb: thats a good idea Jul 26 02:45:55 short=shot Jul 26 02:45:57 Jason1, I mean a problem with the way the rootfs appears to the phone, not necessarily with the file itself. Jul 26 02:46:05 My guess would be something wrong with the flash media on the phoen. Jul 26 02:46:16 paulproteus: where did you get dfu-utils? Jul 26 02:46:22 could it be defective? Jul 26 02:46:38 Jason1, I compiled it from the svn link somewhere... Jul 26 02:47:00 maybe try the binary on buildhost... Jul 26 02:47:07 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dfu-util#Source_Code Jul 26 02:47:08 Thats what I used Jul 26 02:47:57 FYI, I just moved a copy over to my server... Jul 26 02:47:58 Okay, doing that now. Jul 26 02:48:08 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ - that dfu-util is what you used? Jul 26 02:48:17 yep. exactly Jul 26 02:48:32 paulproteus: areyou on an i386? Jul 26 02:48:52 Jason1, Core 2 Duo with i386 userland and kernel Jul 26 02:49:03 I mention it only because the chip is amd64-compatible. Jul 26 02:49:04 me too. Jul 26 02:49:51 Well, I'll give this one more go and then leave. (-: Jul 26 02:50:08 good luck Jul 26 02:50:13 Thanks! (-: Jul 26 02:50:23 if not, the Neo makes a great paper wight Jul 26 02:52:27 Jason1, Do me a favor: Jul 26 02:52:30 $ md5sum openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070726000624.rootfs.jffs2 Jul 26 02:52:30 84dded304f151d9ec92a0b9a27e521ca openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070726000624.rootfs.jffs2 Jul 26 02:53:36 Blah, same deal. )-: Jul 26 02:53:43 mine matches Jul 26 02:54:16 paulproteus: That was an awful fast flash. Mine takes about 5 minutes min. Jul 26 02:54:55 Jason1, I didn't tell you when I started. Jul 26 02:55:19 ok. just checking **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jul 26 02:59:56 2007