**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 27 02:59:56 2007 Jul 27 03:00:23 orospakr: Well, if your testing things, I immagine going down and working with someone there is preffered to spurious calls to 911 Jul 27 03:00:45 Just found the "Stroke REcognizer". pretty cool Jul 27 03:20:29 Finally got my ship notification. Jul 27 03:22:00 woot! Jul 27 03:22:03 sagacis: Yay! Jul 27 03:22:19 sagacis: Whats you est deliv date? Jul 27 03:22:33 /s/you/your Jul 27 03:24:10 oh well. so i'm in shipment two. big deal. that means i get to watch everyone else break theirs. :) Jul 27 03:25:31 ChooseOpen: Jason, you want to try to meet up next weekend? Jul 27 03:26:26 calamous_: Sure. I am free then, i think Jul 27 03:26:43 calamous_: What side of town are you on? Jul 27 03:28:25 Anyone found/made any apps to download yet? Jul 27 03:30:04 so, nobody has any downloadable apps? Jul 27 03:37:02 (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte Re: Bluetooth to 2410 Wiring Jul 27 03:39:43 OMG! I got my sim working but with an older sim card (3 years old) Jul 27 03:39:56 The new at&t ones don't work but the old ones do Jul 27 03:40:01 :) Jul 27 03:40:05 calamous_: cool Jul 27 03:40:11 sweet, i have no idea if my sim works Jul 27 03:40:15 I would love to know why Jul 27 03:40:20 it won't work to call people Jul 27 03:40:45 The gold plating on the older sim compaired to the new one looks defferent, I'm not sure if they're sim revisions or not Jul 27 03:41:02 oooh Jul 27 03:41:04 But I would love others on AT&T to try their sim card Jul 27 03:41:44 Their new sim card (with a picture of a blazing fireball saying "3G" (how ironic)) are the ones that don't work Jul 27 03:42:05 i use cingular, i wouldn't know Jul 27 03:42:13 cingular=at&t Jul 27 03:42:40 i had no idea that one bought the other Jul 27 03:42:43 calamous_ does the nonworking sim have that big "3G" logo Jul 27 03:42:50 yes Jul 27 03:43:00 bmidgley: that is correct Jul 27 03:43:07 ill check what my sim looks like Jul 27 03:43:10 I also tried one of those and it didn't work Jul 27 03:43:20 that was about a month or two ago on an early p1 Jul 27 03:43:25 Yes Jul 27 03:43:40 at&t (cingular) changed their sim design about 4m ago Jul 27 03:43:48 The old cingular sims work fine Jul 27 03:44:10 the one I tried has the 3G thing printed on it but it's a year or so old Jul 27 03:44:23 cingular/att/cingular/att Jul 27 03:44:47 they shouldn't even bother changing the signs... they'll be cingular again before long Jul 27 03:44:50 bmidgley: hmm. What do the contacts on the sim look like Jul 27 03:44:52 wow this seems kinda critical... Jul 27 03:45:01 calamous_ I don't have it handy Jul 27 03:45:24 bmidgley: either at&t is doing something non standard or the neo engineers need to make it work with their sim Jul 27 03:45:41 calamous: 3G means it could be a 1.8V SIM Jul 27 03:45:56 Jason did you try a t-mobile sim earlier? Jul 27 03:46:02 mine says "64k smart chip" across the middle and then the cingular sign in the bottom left Jul 27 03:46:08 cal, yeah I have tmobile SIM Jul 27 03:46:29 ouch... i wonder why the new att sim dosen't work Jul 27 03:46:33 Does anyone know of documentation on the sim chips? Jul 27 03:46:35 *how it could be made to work Jul 27 03:47:00 Well. If we know how the TI clyipso operated we could find out Jul 27 03:47:55 I have "4 bars" on this old cingular card. lol Jul 27 03:48:22 "2 bars" now. thats how I know its an at&t network Jul 27 03:48:27 I have 4 bars with no card at all :) Jul 27 03:48:33 wow Jul 27 03:48:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim_card has a pic of the cingular "3g" sim Jul 27 03:48:49 at&t: all your bar are belong to nsa Jul 27 03:48:49 you guys are funny Jul 27 03:50:32 at&t, your world delivered to the NSA Jul 27 03:51:02 verizon: it's not our crap phones. Jul 27 03:51:03 I'm taking number theory and I want to go to the local AT&T office and apply to work for the NSA. Jul 27 03:51:25 I figure if I just leave my resume at the at&t store it will wind up in the hands of the nsa Jul 27 03:51:31 lol Jul 27 03:52:10 I just bought this at&t sim today. I'm going to call them and say that my old cingular one works but not my new one Jul 27 03:52:18 assuming you can find an employee who'll know to forward it... Jul 27 03:52:42 is the neo hardware only able to do 3v sims? Jul 27 03:52:42 true Jul 27 03:53:17 they transfered me twice and I was talking about AT commands and GSM proto and the guy after 2 transfers still didnt know what I was talking about Jul 27 03:53:22 best thing might be to embed a few buzzwords and send it back and forth a few million times with random enc keys Jul 27 03:53:24 I called earlier Jul 27 03:55:17 are we sure the neo supports 3g? Jul 27 03:55:35 no, it doesn't. Jul 27 03:55:40 very sure. Jul 27 03:56:12 Is that why the new AT&T sim cards dont work but the old ones w/o the 3g logo do? Jul 27 03:56:23 I tried a very old cingular one in my phone and it works Jul 27 03:56:54 there might be some extra bits due to the 3g logo Jul 27 03:57:36 you should probably come open and ask how it differs from the old from the technology perspective and if they can't answer, try to find out who produced the new sims and ask them Jul 27 03:58:03 good evening Jul 27 03:58:25 Ok. the cingular "64K smartchip" works, but the "at&t 3G" dosent Jul 27 03:58:37 guaqua: i'd imagine whoever produced them is buried under NDAs Jul 27 03:59:14 hmmm, how can i tell that my 64k smartchip works, i tried doing a few calls and even tried to recieve one, but it dosen't work Jul 27 03:59:28 cool, my Neo1973 has shipped! Jul 27 03:59:29 Zaery go to a shell Jul 27 03:59:34 kk Jul 27 03:59:45 cjb_ie: unfortunately :( Jul 27 03:59:46 type libgsmd-tool -m atcmd Jul 27 03:59:52 k Jul 27 04:00:06 do a ps and tell me if gsmd is running Jul 27 04:00:07 aloril: Congrats! When will it arrive? Jul 27 04:00:20 some time next week I guess Jul 27 04:00:51 hmm.. charge on Visa card not yet visible ;-) Jul 27 04:01:00 aloril: I take it UPS is not showing you an est. delivery date yet? Jul 27 04:01:15 If its not running do: gsmd -p /dev/ttySAC0 -s 115200 -F, but then you will need to open up a new terminal Jul 27 04:01:48 is it known yet if the initial batch of OpenMokos will be able to connect to any existing cellphone networks Jul 27 04:01:49 ? Jul 27 04:01:49 MrWGW: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 27 04:01:52 If it is running (or in that new terminal) type: libgsmd-tool -m atcmd Jul 27 04:01:59 and issue: AT+CNUM Jul 27 04:02:03 ChooseOpen: don't see any, status is pickup Jul 27 04:02:14 and see if it gives you your sell phone number, or if it will give you error 10 Jul 27 04:02:20 aloril: I think it takes while before they show it... Jul 27 04:02:42 thanks aloril Jul 27 04:02:46 anyway, its already Friday here, so doubt it will arrive today ;-) Jul 27 04:03:32 SpeedEvil: You are the answer guy, Is it a problem that it wont work with the 3g sim cards? Jul 27 04:04:54 grrr, theres no way to redo the last command Jul 27 04:05:46 in the terminal? switch to the gpe terminal Jul 27 04:05:51 instead of the flashy openmoko one Jul 27 04:05:55 zaery: is gsmd up? Jul 27 04:06:37 no, i tried to do the second command you told me, but i typed it wrong, im tr\yping it again Jul 27 04:06:56 * * OM Bug 665 has been created by steven.demetrius(AT)fiwwi.com Jul 27 04:06:56 * * Real time Dual SIM Jul 27 04:06:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=665 Jul 27 04:07:09 Is the upgrade from GSM 2.5G to 3 actual hardware or software? Jul 27 04:09:11 calamous_: i did the second command, im now typing the third Jul 27 04:09:35 Zaery: Are you typing it on the neo?!?!?! Jul 27 04:09:47 yeah Jul 27 04:09:48 anybody else outside USA got "Order shipped: OpenMoko direct order" and "Resolved: OpenMoko direct order" mails? Jul 27 04:09:48 Zaery: you should SSH into it from a "real" computer Jul 27 04:09:55 * * OM Bug 666 has been created by steven.demetrius(AT)fiwwi.com Jul 27 04:09:56 * * 3G SIM capability Jul 27 04:09:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666 Jul 27 04:10:03 kk Jul 27 04:10:40 hehe, funny number ^ Jul 27 04:11:31 bug 666 :/ Jul 27 04:13:39 Steven, you beat me to the post Jul 27 04:14:16 aloril: yes. just an hour ago Jul 27 04:14:17 i cant find the /dev for my moko, its connected through USB Jul 27 04:14:43 calamous_: Have you played with any of the other AT commands? Jul 27 04:15:05 Yeah a bunch. I cant do _much_ without a working network connection Jul 27 04:15:27 I got the datasheet with all the commands and protocol its really helpful Jul 27 04:15:43 calamous_: Yeah Im playing with it now Jul 27 04:16:12 calamous_: Trying to get data out of hte phonebook... Jul 27 04:16:13 Its pretty cool, I learned alot about GSM. its no longer magic, its AT commands Jul 27 04:16:20 :) Jul 27 04:16:26 'course, what those AT commands do is magic ;) Jul 27 04:16:28 the syntax is intersting too Jul 27 04:16:44 Yes only TI and FIC know (i hate NDAs) Jul 27 04:17:01 gsm is an open standard Jul 27 04:17:03 Is the GSM spec really NDAed? Jul 27 04:17:11 no GSM standard is open Jul 27 04:17:18 How do i ssh to the device, i know the command is ssh something, but i cant figure out the something Jul 27 04:17:20 but how the chip "dose it" is closed Jul 27 04:17:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Building_Gadget_USB_Module]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User:WetSpot]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Atlanta]] [[SH1]] Jul 27 04:17:33 zaery: did you set up usb net? Jul 27 04:18:04 well, i did connect it through the usb cable Jul 27 04:18:15 zaery: do: ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200 Jul 27 04:18:26 but im a newb with ssh'ing Jul 27 04:18:27 kk Jul 27 04:18:28 and then: ssh root@192.168.0.200 Jul 27 04:18:52 if you're a n00b make sure to do the ifconfig as root but you can ssh as your normal self Jul 27 04:19:01 kk Jul 27 04:19:45 ChooseOpen: Next time I talk with people when I'm done with the conversation I should say ATH Jul 27 04:19:54 If they are haise compatable they will understand Jul 27 04:19:59 hayse* Jul 27 04:20:16 calamous_: The it is today, you will at least getto type it after every conversation :) Jul 27 04:20:27 the way it is Jul 27 04:20:36 lol Jul 27 04:20:52 "ATH mo fu, shut your mouth" Jul 27 04:20:57 hehe Jul 27 04:21:17 or you could do the TCP version of hello: syn, syn ack, ack Jul 27 04:21:35 bye bye = fin if you are nice or rst if you are mean Jul 27 04:22:36 Zaery: hows it going? Jul 27 04:22:54 I wish the neo could support 3g sim cards, I hope it can be soft patched Jul 27 04:23:15 speedevil said it was just 2.5g though :( Jul 27 04:23:24 i tried ssh, but it refused the connection, then i pinged it, it can send and recieve packets, and when i tried to telnet to it, it refused Jul 27 04:23:25 calamous_: You know you are going to buy the GTA02 in a few months... Jul 27 04:23:40 oh yeah of course Jul 27 04:24:08 zaery: What subnet is your home network on? Jul 27 04:24:13 Jason do you fell the device is sorta slow when you interact with it Jul 27 04:24:20 feel* Jul 27 04:24:56 calamous_: Launching apps is pretty slow. ssh commands are pretty quick. Things like 'top' are decent considering the device... Jul 27 04:25:14 I'm hoping the faster proc in the GTA02 will pay off Jul 27 04:25:19 ChooseOpen: my wifi is at 192.128.1.8 Jul 27 04:25:27 calamous_: Yeah that and the graphic accell Jul 27 04:25:37 msg me the output of just: ifconfig Jul 27 04:26:08 zaery: You should be alright with that then. You just dont want to be on 192.168.0.0 Jul 27 04:26:08 ChooseOpen: I want opendoom or open quake on it. test out that graphics accelerator Jul 27 04:26:25 hehe Jul 27 04:26:49 ChooseOpen: then why is it refusing connections? Jul 27 04:26:58 I heard, don't know if its true, that someone ran world of warcraft on the iPhone Jul 27 04:27:06 zaery can you ping 0.202 Jul 27 04:27:14 192.168.0.202 (0.202) Jul 27 04:27:18 hmmm, ill try Jul 27 04:27:27 paste me your ifconfig Jul 27 04:27:44 yup, the ping works great Jul 27 04:28:02 the whole ifconfig? Jul 27 04:28:12 ssh into it (since its slow it can take like 10 or 15 secs to establish the encryption) Jul 27 04:28:25 nah if you can ping it your on atleast layer 3 connection with it Jul 27 04:28:46 hello all Jul 27 04:28:50 hi Jul 27 04:28:56 hey omokoman Jul 27 04:29:08 I got my openmoko today! Jul 27 04:29:14 YAY! me too Jul 27 04:29:29 congrats! Jul 27 04:29:30 omokoman: COngrats. got it running yet? Jul 27 04:29:31 omokoman: try a 3g sim card in there and let us know if it works Jul 27 04:29:49 yea it's running, simple to flash, etc... Jul 27 04:30:18 only problem is with the "phone" part, i put in a brand new at&t sim card, it's a no go Jul 27 04:30:26 ME TOO Jul 27 04:30:37 omokoman: Yup, talk to calamous_ Jul 27 04:30:37 I bought a $25 dollar at&t prepaid Jul 27 04:30:38 hello my moko monkeys Jul 27 04:30:52 wow, im tired, calamous, any way i can reach you tommorow? Jul 27 04:30:57 ;p'\ Jul 27 04:31:03 Your sim card has the fireball "3g" logo on it right Jul 27 04:31:10 ;p'\lol, my cat jumped on my keyboard Jul 27 04:31:24 zaery: I'm going to be flying to martha's vinyard to visit my gf tomorrow, but I'll be back in about a week Jul 27 04:31:35 I'll be online but tomorrow is a hell travle day Jul 27 04:31:56 zaery, that was a pretty good emoticon Jul 27 04:31:57 :) Jul 27 04:32:17 calamous_: yes it does Jul 27 04:32:21 holycow, its my cats fault ;p'\ Jul 27 04:32:39 well, cya tommorow everyone Jul 27 04:32:40 omokoman: your SOL for now, sorry man. Hopefully the big guns can find a way around this Jul 27 04:32:45 kitty has style Jul 27 04:32:52 SOL? Jul 27 04:32:53 omokoman: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 27 04:33:00 Talk to at&t and see if they will give you a 2.5G one Jul 27 04:33:08 Well I'm depressed about the 3g sim card. I'm going to the bar. see you guys Jul 27 04:33:24 hehe Jul 27 04:33:39 OM is driving a man to drinking Jul 27 04:34:46 * aloril wonders if GTA01B_v04 has connection problems in SIM card too, reportedly at some point there was Jul 27 04:34:49 what sort of power connector is on the phone? Will it charge from USB? Jul 27 04:35:00 doc|home: Yep. Jul 27 04:35:06 excellent Jul 27 04:35:31 so it won't do 3g, it has to be 2.5g? Jul 27 04:35:53 doc|home: There is a whole science to it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery_Charger Jul 27 04:36:51 wow, that's messy Jul 27 04:37:02 omokoman: You are #3 to report this problem. Apparently that is the case. Nobody is sure if it is something that can be fixed in software or not... Jul 27 04:37:44 ah thanks, choooseopen are you from chooseopen.com? Jul 27 04:37:55 doc|home: From what I understand, if you plug it in, it will do some sort of charing, but depending on the type of device host/hub/charger, will depend on the charging mode... Jul 27 04:38:03 hmmm Jul 27 04:38:04 omokoman: Thats me Jul 27 04:38:43 ChooseOpen: cool! I'm running the kernel that's on you're site Jul 27 04:38:50 I have a motorola slvr 2 right now, piece of crap really :) but it charges on USB at home but not in work, while my iriver will charge on both. That might be because of the hub/host? Jul 27 04:39:00 omokoman: cool. glad I could help. Jul 27 04:39:57 doc|home: I think there is a discussion about this in the mailing list too. Something about smart hosts and dumb hosts and wiring configurations....blah, blah blah :) Jul 27 04:40:05 ChooseOpen: do you just build from the workspace or do you put extra stuff in the builds? Jul 27 04:40:13 ChooseOpen: hehe, ok, thanks Jul 27 04:40:32 omokoman: No, just virgin MokoMakeFile builds. I havent gotten that good yet :) Jul 27 04:41:05 moin Jul 27 04:41:46 omokoman: The builds in buildhost are outdated (ie. bugy), so I put mine up on the server until OM can catch up... Jul 27 04:43:02 ChooseOpen: I started with buildhost, saw some really ugly things, tried yours, and it's all much better now... though start up seems a little slow for the apps Jul 27 04:44:03 omokoman: Yeah. GUI app startup is sluggish. IMO, to be expected. Im surewith a little optimization, things will get snappier. And of course the upgrade GTA02 hardware will help :) Jul 27 04:46:20 ChooseOpen: so does it build "out-of-the-workspace"? or are there any hacks required? Jul 27 04:46:48 no hacks required Jul 27 04:47:40 mokomakefile sets everything up, makes the process painless Jul 27 04:49:06 ChooseOpen: I'll try it, i'm on x86_64. Jul 27 05:17:20 I saw a picture of a OM battery being charged in a generic Nokia charging station Jul 27 05:17:32 wonder if that still stands Jul 27 05:23:21 doc|home: yeah different USB connections have different power ratings (there is actually a category code for each), often hubs with a power pack have a very high rating so are more idead for charging Jul 27 05:23:53 ideal* Jul 27 05:23:54 linux_galore: and is there a reason one device would take a charge while another wouldn't, both from the same machine? Jul 27 05:24:11 different draws? Jul 27 05:24:29 I suspect the draw currrent is too high Jul 27 05:24:40 and whether or not the device negotiated more current Jul 27 05:24:54 It has to ask for it Jul 27 05:25:02 yeah there is also a hand of to tell the chipset how much juice is needed Jul 27 05:25:05 and might that vary between machines? for example, the phone charges on my home machine, but not my work machine. Jul 27 05:25:26 openbsd's "uberry" driver exists for the sole purpose of matching the blueberry device id and turning up the juice Jul 27 05:25:32 might depend on the chipset? Jul 27 05:25:41 some chipsets though have a higher rating than others and that makes life very confusing Jul 27 05:25:47 one machine happily pumps out max current all the time? Jul 27 05:25:47 * doc|home nods Jul 27 05:25:55 maybe lossy cables? Jul 27 05:26:14 i have one usb cable that will run my usb laptop drive, and another cable that won't Jul 27 05:26:19 ckuethe: no idea, but it charges from my desktop at home, but not from work. My work machine is a much cheaper machine though. Same cable on both Jul 27 05:26:46 ckuethe: I suspect the +-5V is missing Jul 27 05:26:56 on the cable Jul 27 05:27:20 4 wires, 2 data, 2 power Jul 27 05:27:24 no, the cable is ok if i plug it in to a pwered hub Jul 27 05:27:37 it's just slightly thinner -> higher resistance Jul 27 05:28:00 as it is, running a notebook drive powered solely by usb seems a little dodgy Jul 27 05:28:08 my laptop can drive it, my work machine can't. Jul 27 05:28:11 ckuethe: sounds like it a dodgy cable to me, the cable if made to spec shouldnt matter Jul 27 05:28:40 ckuethe: hubs have way more power, so much that some devices have been known to blow up Jul 27 05:28:53 hence the whole power negotiation Jul 27 05:29:22 ckuethe: thats if it works, on some of the cheap units Ive seen they dont have it Jul 27 05:29:43 Its in the spec Jul 27 05:29:56 heh, tell the chinese that Jul 27 05:30:16 they just saved 5c on a hub and it works Jul 27 05:31:03 for varying values of works :) Jul 27 05:31:08 meh. i'm merely relating a couple of anecdotes regarding usb and power deliver Jul 27 05:32:54 yeah, good sample in line 24 pin plastic connectors on my desk right now made in China, they look just as good as our normal supplier, size spec everything, one small problem the female doesnt click on so if the product is dropped the connector comes loose Jul 27 05:33:35 s/good sample/a good example is the/ Jul 27 05:33:36 linux_galore meant: yeah, a good example is the in line 24 pin plastic connectors on my desk right now made in China, they look just as good as our normal supplier, size spec everything, one small problem the female doesnt click on so if the product is dropped the connector ... Jul 27 05:34:00 comes loose Jul 27 05:35:57 got them from our mainland chinese engineers as a money saving idea. Jul 27 05:36:25 Jul 27 05:37:52 hope you save enough to cover the warrany replacement ... :P Jul 27 05:38:11 ckuethe: well thats what my report is basically saying Jul 27 05:39:44 you know it won't, i know it won't ... Jul 27 05:39:54 been there done that Jul 27 05:40:38 ckuethe: you have to be careful not to insult them but explain why the product although nice fails in one respect and they may want to ask the manufacturer to add some revisions (see design revision) to the product then send me another sample run Jul 27 05:42:35 its funny if a local engineer stuffed up I would say as much but you cant do that with the Chinese Jul 27 05:43:09 why's that? Jul 27 05:43:10 not sure why.... (but i've never really been good with people) Jul 27 05:44:14 doc|home: they do take things personally and as an attack against their social position, were the local guys just shrug and go OK thanks I will try again Jul 27 05:44:43 hmmm Jul 27 05:45:05 wow, neo has been shipped! Jul 27 05:45:08 does anyone have a neo1973 yet? Jul 27 05:45:20 ynezz: a few people do already Jul 27 05:45:28 nice Jul 27 05:45:47 even though it's a dev, i am tempted to get it Jul 27 05:46:01 Im not, without wifi its a brick Jul 27 05:46:18 yeah, i hear rev2 is alot better Jul 27 05:46:29 You're right, you aren't good with people. Jul 27 05:46:42 wow it's already in germany Jul 27 05:47:03 cant wait for the reviews, wtf it doesnt work Jul 27 05:47:09 heh Jul 27 05:47:12 :) Jul 27 05:47:28 yea people seems to be suprised that it even don't boot :p Jul 27 05:47:55 i made sure to read the part "DONT USE IT AS A PHONE" Jul 27 05:47:58 another reason to wait for the GTA02 Jul 27 05:48:09 but I myself like it, you learn a lot when you're hunting bugs Jul 27 05:48:18 That all depends what you want to do with it. Jul 27 05:48:31 Some people might actually want to develop with it. Jul 27 05:49:03 Some people might not think it's "a brick" just because it doesn't have wifi Jul 27 05:49:08 GTA01 is a toy for me Jul 27 05:49:28 hads: yeah I can imagine it now, look at my cool new phone, even has a Linux boot, what you want me to make a phone call, eeer hold on let me debug my gsm module and I will get back to you nect week Jul 27 05:49:30 it'll teach me about low level ARM stuff, about gsm, etc.... Jul 27 05:49:48 i don't really expect it to be a phone Jul 27 05:49:50 Bah I give up. Goodbye. Jul 27 05:50:02 more like a computer engineering lab kit. Jul 27 05:50:10 yeah Jul 27 05:50:20 ckuethe: Exactly Jul 27 05:50:20 my moto a780 was fun to play with in that aspect too Jul 27 05:50:21 which'll hopefully be a phone not too long from now Jul 27 05:50:27 $450 computer engineering textbook Jul 27 05:50:33 Some people just don't get it. Jul 27 05:50:34 Ive got enough arm based junk on my desk as it is Jul 27 05:51:08 i wonder how long until people ask "how do i put windows on it" Jul 27 05:51:13 linux_galore, amen to that :-P Jul 27 05:51:44 ARM stuff was a joke 8 years ago, now everything runs arm Jul 27 05:52:07 i don't have arm board with such a nice display and with gps/gsm builtin :) Jul 27 05:52:16 and it's worth the money Jul 27 05:52:41 Hi Jul 27 05:52:41 with debug board/jtag etc Jul 27 05:52:55 ynezz: if you want an arm based machine with a screen and runs Linux a GP2X is a better option Jul 27 05:53:06 its only US$200 Jul 27 05:53:08 with gsm? Jul 27 05:53:15 with 2 x ARM cpu's Jul 27 05:53:28 ynezz: now but for research its great Jul 27 05:53:31 no* Jul 27 05:53:34 it is Jul 27 05:53:35 i just wanted to know, will there be a camera on Neo 1973? Jul 27 05:53:35 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (also some model next year probably will gave camera module: http://www.channelweb.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone ) Jul 27 05:53:50 linux_galore: but I've have PSP... Jul 27 05:53:51 the serious deal for an ARM device is the slug Jul 27 05:54:01 $60 refurbished from Amazon Jul 27 05:54:10 oh i didn't know there were refurbs Jul 27 05:54:29 Has anyone gotten ipkg to sync? Jul 27 05:54:29 works just as well Jul 27 05:54:39 Balthamaisteri: ok, go buy a Nikon D80 SLR, plug it into your openmoko phone and bang you now have the worlds first mobile phone with a 10MP camera Jul 27 05:54:44 calamous_, ipkg update; ipkg upgrade Jul 27 05:54:52 * linux_galore ducks Jul 27 05:55:08 I dont know the syntax of the ipkg's repo file Jul 27 05:55:18 lol Jul 27 05:55:19 and the default repo dosent exist Jul 27 05:55:20 codyl: PSP isnt 100% open by default Jul 27 05:55:49 we lucked out because sony screwed up and didn't put an mmu inj Jul 27 05:55:50 *in Jul 27 05:56:29 linux_galore: hmm, thats not so handy, but probably i don't really need that camera Jul 27 05:56:42 also I would say the GP2X has more grunt (dual cpu) than a PSP Jul 27 05:56:51 psp cpu is 222-333mhz Jul 27 05:57:02 can the gp2x keep up with that? Jul 27 05:57:03 psp has also 2 cpu's Jul 27 05:57:09 cpu and gpu Jul 27 05:57:20 yeah - like the ps2's right? Jul 27 05:57:34 Balthamaisteri: you can always buy a USB 2MP kit camera (without a case) and just mod the case (drill a hole) and add one Jul 27 05:57:36 don't know ps2 Jul 27 05:57:38 (even bigger sony screwup... relying on ps2 ports but only putting one analog stick in!) Jul 27 05:58:09 codyl: Can you tell me what is in your /etc/ipkg.d directory Jul 27 05:58:32 i think psp is success, at least i enjoy it a lot Jul 27 05:58:41 lumines! Jul 27 05:59:15 linux_galore: can neo work like GPS ... what is that thing in your car? Jul 27 05:59:35 pls, read wiki Jul 27 05:59:45 ynezz: try playing a xvid avi file that is ripped in high resoltion on the PSP, you can but I can on my GP2X Jul 27 05:59:45 you've everything there Jul 27 06:00:09 s/can/cant/ Jul 27 06:00:09 linux_galore meant: ynezz: try playing a xvid avi file that is ripped in high resoltion on the PSP, you cant but I can on my GP2X Jul 27 06:00:12 i know there are this GSP thing, but that doesn't tell me anything :D Jul 27 06:00:19 linux_galore: you can also with custom firmware Jul 27 06:00:28 Balthamaisteri: yes Jul 27 06:00:30 PSP 4 the win :) Jul 27 06:00:41 it was a firmware problem not cpu/gpu Jul 27 06:01:05 PSP is really nice but sony crippled it so badly its pretty limited Jul 27 06:01:29 what's limited? Jul 27 06:02:20 once you ring0 it, you can do almost everything Jul 27 06:02:55 ynezz: it can play 1/4 of the media types that i can play on my GP2X for starters and it wont play video files that are at the wrong resolution for its screen, the GP2X has on the fly resolution re encoding Jul 27 06:03:08 ok Jul 27 06:03:13 s/can/cant Jul 27 06:03:56 ynezz: try play a mkv file or an xvid file, sorry your shit out of luck Jul 27 06:04:04 psp updates all the time Jul 27 06:04:12 i just want to play GTA Jul 27 06:04:20 :) Jul 27 06:04:21 i've never used psp for movies/music Jul 27 06:04:27 :) Jul 27 06:04:40 i will buy psp so i can play games when i go to army :D Jul 27 06:04:46 ynezz: because you cant its crippled and hardly any files on the web are mp4 Jul 27 06:04:47 ps1 games Jul 27 06:04:55 Balthamaisteri: yea, brothers in arms! Jul 27 06:05:06 :D Jul 27 06:05:10 i don't need your wars, i've mine! Jul 27 06:05:20 ynezz thats exactly it.. i sit here on a 1680x1050 and wonder why people want video on stamps so badly when i just wish i had enough pixels for hd Jul 27 06:05:54 roh: well, how do you get 1680x1050 in your pocket? :) Jul 27 06:05:56 linux_galore: some sites provides video files to your ipod or/and psp Jul 27 06:05:59 roh: depends on the resolution on the small screen Jul 27 06:06:07 ynezz its 15" and mounted on a notebook Jul 27 06:06:24 linux_galore even then its only usable for something like 5 minutes of news or so Jul 27 06:06:34 not for real movies or series. Jul 27 06:06:46 15" with such resolution? Jul 27 06:06:49 I have tried watching video on my 5G ipod but the resolution is rubbish Jul 27 06:06:58 what type of notebook it is? Jul 27 06:07:01 ynezz lenovo T60p Jul 27 06:07:29 nice Jul 27 06:07:34 * linux_galore waits for a Toshiba R500 with flash hardisk to arrive in AU Jul 27 06:08:03 ynezz about the same chipset like a macbook pro but with real screen, case and keyboard and some extendability Jul 27 06:08:15 true Jul 27 06:09:02 I never use the screen on my laptop at home, I just plug in a 22" wide LCD so Im usually looking for something compact Jul 27 06:09:22 why is it that desktop screens are so much lower res than laptops, he has the same res in 15" as I do in 22. Jul 27 06:09:45 doc|home: I have 1650x1280 Jul 27 06:09:56 my laptop is lower Jul 27 06:10:00 linux_galore: I have 1680x1050 Jul 27 06:10:08 so it's only slightly lower Jul 27 06:10:11 sorry 1050 Jul 27 06:10:22 my laptop is 1024 x 768 Jul 27 06:10:32 ok, but, why are desktop lcds always so far behind laptop ones? Jul 27 06:10:59 doc|home: depends, you can actually get very high res LCD's for autocad Jul 27 06:11:11 but you'll pay silly money for them :/ Jul 27 06:11:12 ... and pay through the nose Jul 27 06:11:34 for me 1650 x 1050 is fine Jul 27 06:11:53 linux_galore: sure, but seems like a raw deal compared to laptop screens :/ Jul 27 06:12:03 you guys are spoilt, my first cad station monitor was 320 x 480 Jul 27 06:12:12 when was that? Jul 27 06:12:14 what annoys me is the whole widescreen thing :/ I have a 1600x1200 square screen lcd :/ Jul 27 06:12:19 1980's Jul 27 06:12:21 320x480... that sounds like a mode x trick Jul 27 06:12:27 which they don't sell any more Jul 27 06:12:37 dell still has a 20" 16x12 Jul 27 06:12:39 cost 3k too Jul 27 06:12:44 but it costs a lot more than the 20" wide Jul 27 06:12:53 its a good compromise of money, used energy and space. 15" in 19:10 is actually the biggest notebook i want to carry arround ever Jul 27 06:12:53 happycube: hmmm, so samsung probably does too. Interesting Jul 27 06:12:58 happycube: yeah Jul 27 06:13:04 roh: yeah Jul 27 06:13:05 yeah, dell has the 27" units on special Jul 27 06:13:26 same res as the 24" tho :P Jul 27 06:13:45 there is actually a laptop with 21" LCD running around Jul 27 06:13:55 the 2560x... lcd's have huge controller drawbacks though Jul 27 06:13:59 dell has a 20" unit Jul 27 06:14:09 ive not seen any lcd above real-hd besides these 2560x thingies and these are pretty expensive Jul 27 06:14:17 linux_galore: they're usually rebadged samsungs, probably http://www.samsung.com/ca/products/monitor/lcd_regular/ls20brdbbvxaa.asp ? Jul 27 06:14:41 happycube you need a graphics card which can to multi-lane dvi since the pixelclock is limited Jul 27 06:14:45 the 2560x ones *only* take dual dvi, and the 1920x1200's take vga, single-link dvi or maybe hdmi, and hdtv component Jul 27 06:15:03 doc|home: they are Dell 20" laptops Jul 27 06:15:17 linux_galore: ah, screw that. Who wants to carry one of those around? :/ Jul 27 06:15:39 maybe when screens roll up/out 20"'ll make sense for a notebook Jul 27 06:15:46 doc|home: people who want a full machine but they live in a rental Jul 27 06:15:54 linux_galore: true Jul 27 06:16:10 wow, these are pretty cheap: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001226 Jul 27 06:16:12 doc|home: dell actually sell allot of the things too Jul 27 06:16:17 does Avi Kivity hang out on IRC? Jul 27 06:16:45 doc - it's a TN panel tho Jul 27 06:16:56 happycube: big difference? Jul 27 06:17:03 depends on your eyes and pickyness Jul 27 06:17:10 HP are now also selling media centre laptops with 19/20" wide screen LCDs Jul 27 06:17:12 * doc|home values his eyes Jul 27 06:17:25 most TN's have a flicker because they're dithering between colors Jul 27 06:17:29 urgh Jul 27 06:17:35 (samsung has *some* 8-bit tn's) Jul 27 06:17:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[SH1]] [[Debug_Board]] [[Wish_List]] [[Gsmd]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_OWL]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Paderborn]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Building_Gadget_USB_Module]] Jul 27 06:17:45 and their viewing angles are limited compared to pva and ips Jul 27 06:18:35 Im happy with my crappy viewsonic 22" Jul 27 06:18:47 linux_galore: I have the 20" Jul 27 06:18:57 vp201b, which I miss :/ Jul 27 06:19:08 doc|home: for the price fonts look pretty good on the things Jul 27 06:19:10 too big to bring over Jul 27 06:19:21 linux_galore: I love it, and it cost me a lot of money when I got it Jul 27 06:19:59 doc|home: well I paid USD$420 6 months ago for mine and they are now USD$340 Jul 27 06:20:02 I want to run OpenMoko in my notebook to take a look at it, develop a couple of toy applications, etc. Should I run emulated or not? Jul 27 06:20:09 linux_galore: that's not bad Jul 27 06:20:30 doc|home: pretty cheap for 22" LCD Jul 27 06:20:45 even has speakers that I never use lol Jul 27 06:20:52 hehehe Jul 27 06:21:33 you could use it as gsm traffic detector :) Jul 27 06:21:56 (buzz buzz click buzz) Jul 27 06:22:08 Im thinking of getting a Dell 27" lcd and plugging in HD Tuner box to make a cheap tv for the missus Jul 27 06:22:22 yeah - it's a good way to get full hd Jul 27 06:22:43 also the latest 24" and 27" dells have high-color backlights Jul 27 06:23:01 most of the LCD TV's Im seeing are lower res and more expensive Jul 27 06:23:03 * xkr47 hopes the external debug connector on the moko2008 will be supported by lcd tvs so you can just plug the moko on top of your tv and stream video from it :D Jul 27 06:23:12 ;) Jul 27 06:23:21 well, harold did mention vga and maybe even dvi Jul 27 06:23:27 yeah Jul 27 06:23:41 lol, openmoko media centre Jul 27 06:23:51 * Stephmw pokes doc|home Jul 27 06:23:53 just add big assed lcd Jul 27 06:23:54 * xkr47 wonders how cool it would look with a dvi connector on the phone :D Jul 27 06:23:58 two (full-size!) sd card slots... by then that's 16gb Jul 27 06:23:58 doc|home: you're stalking me! Jul 27 06:24:06 gerroff!! Jul 27 06:24:10 hdmi's pretty small Jul 27 06:24:15 true Jul 27 06:24:16 Stephmw: and yeah, I think it was you that told me about this :) Jul 27 06:24:17 you could probably actually fit one Jul 27 06:24:28 doc|home: probably :) Jul 27 06:24:30 yeah there is a micro hdmi connector thing running around Jul 27 06:24:32 of course it would *not* have hdcp Jul 27 06:24:40 to Finland: "Your package is on time with a scheduled delivery date of 08/03/2007." Jul 27 06:24:49 mine's coming tommorow Jul 27 06:25:38 glad the int. shipping rates dropped a bit... still, ow Jul 27 06:25:48 i wonder why there wasn't a european reseller since it has CE Jul 27 06:25:53 about half price of original now Jul 27 06:26:13 they don't have resources to organize that Jul 27 06:26:32 too bad :( Jul 27 06:26:38 i hope gta02 actually gets resellers Jul 27 06:26:55 P1 was never meant to have resellers Jul 27 06:27:00 should, at least that is their plan Jul 27 06:27:12 hads - yeah Jul 27 06:27:27 * aloril would not be surprised if even GTA01 has resellers, maybe this depends on how fast GTA02 becomes available Jul 27 06:27:41 * aloril also wonders if GTA01B_v04 continues being available Jul 27 06:28:03 the design work's done... if there's an embedded use i could see several thousand 01bv4's being made Jul 27 06:28:14 *use/customer Jul 27 06:28:32 hopefully there will be so openmoko's costs will get recouped Jul 27 06:29:22 i could see a ruggedized case for the gta01/02 Jul 27 06:29:54 it first started as a opensource mobile phone ooh cool my openmoko has arrived. then John started to modify the phone Im adding a webcam and a satalite dish and robot arms to my phone at 12.13 July 9th 2014 Johns telephone decided human kind were an inferior being and must be destroyed Jul 27 06:30:17 heh Jul 27 06:31:21 rm -rf humanity Jul 27 06:32:11 rm: cannot remove `humanity': No such thing Jul 27 06:33:19 make love Jul 27 06:33:19 make: *** No rule to make target `love'. Stop. Jul 27 06:33:25 make war Jul 27 06:33:26 make: *** No rule to make target `war'. Stop. Jul 27 06:33:52 make my phone work Jul 27 06:34:00 happycube: man bush Jul 27 06:34:05 * doc|home shtus up Jul 27 06:34:08 *shuts Jul 27 06:34:10 make: *** No rule to make target `my phone work. Stop Jul 27 06:34:14 heh Jul 27 06:34:26 calamous_: why have you bought then? :p Jul 27 06:34:44 People on the list say that 3g sim cards work but I still cant get it to work Jul 27 06:35:31 you can't buy working one for $3 or what? :p Jul 27 06:35:32 calamous_: just thank your lucky stars they didnt base it on gentoo Jul 27 06:35:50 ynezz: you tell me why the GSM modem works with an older sim card but when I use a new one the gsm modem returns CME error 10 (sim card not inserted) Jul 27 06:35:56 calamous_: take 4 weeks to compile everythign to find out it doesnt work Jul 27 06:36:07 emerge --update --newuse --deep world Jul 27 06:36:19 * doc|home hides his hostmask Jul 27 06:37:06 Anyone have ideas why my 3G sim card inst working but an older one is? Jul 27 06:37:14 happycube you wouldn't believe what people would want as cases... the spectrum is from metal to woof and from 'make it watertight and floating' to 'tune the vibra-motor and add a round rubbercover' *cough* Jul 27 06:37:22 calamous_: the Openmoko isnt 3G Jul 27 06:37:26 calamous_: because its 3G ? ;p Jul 27 06:37:32 Yes but the 3g cards should work Jul 27 06:37:37 "but it works for others" Jul 27 06:37:54 companies like at&t ensure that their new 3g cards work with older phones Jul 27 06:38:00 calamous_: did you sacrifice a virgin to the gcc gods Jul 27 06:38:07 It wont have the 3g features but it should work Jul 27 06:38:31 I sacrificed Richard Stallman Jul 27 06:38:51 gsm part isn't open, i don't know what do you expect here :) Jul 27 06:39:15 ask someone from openmoko or make bugreport Jul 27 06:39:17 The GSM proto IS open. I'm looking at the long-ass PDF with all the commands and return codes Jul 27 06:39:19 calamous_: patience Jul 27 06:39:27 the cylapso drivers arnt Jul 27 06:39:29 roh: hehe Jul 27 06:39:50 but it don't work with your card, it's not problem with AT commands Jul 27 06:40:06 roh - dang... yeah i could see that Jul 27 06:40:06 aloril: i can understand the wish for metal, round rubber and floating.. but wood? Jul 27 06:40:13 The sim has both USIM and SIM application on it so it *should* Jul 27 06:40:15 i'm happy with just the silver/black case ;) Jul 27 06:40:26 The new sim card can work with old (non 3G) phones Jul 27 06:40:33 a stylus holder would be nice tho, but it's hard to go back in time and change th emold Jul 27 06:40:35 I think black with a "round" case is wrong Jul 27 06:40:40 roh: well, same people as steampunk? Jul 27 06:40:47 calamous_ basically it should. a bug has been filed? Jul 27 06:40:48 black is a "square" colour Jul 27 06:40:53 are there any signs of an open gsm chip or driver? Jul 27 06:41:00 aloril: hrhr Jul 27 06:41:05 Yes someone already beat me to the bug today because they had the same problem Jul 27 06:41:07 hummm... ThinkMoko Jul 27 06:41:13 and other P1 devel said the same think Jul 27 06:41:15 thing* Jul 27 06:41:17 these can build their own cases better i think Jul 27 06:41:20 nice Jul 27 06:41:30 "It worked with the 64K smart card but no with the new one with the 3g fireball" Jul 27 06:41:42 calamous_ *sigh* Jul 27 06:41:50 maybe calypso don't work with fireball :) Jul 27 06:41:58 someone needs to get a 3g att card over to taiwan Jul 27 06:42:03 Ynezz: yes but we will never know Jul 27 06:42:14 calamous_ we need to follow this one. Jul 27 06:42:14 or it might be fixed by new firmware Jul 27 06:42:22 roh: yes I agree its import Jul 27 06:42:32 happycube the question is: do these cards have roaming enabled? Jul 27 06:42:35 so you have to send your moko back to flash it :p Jul 27 06:42:38 were going to have lots of ppl who want to take their sims out and if it dosent work there is a huge problem Jul 27 06:43:02 what kind of problem? Jul 27 06:43:02 At first I though my reader was dead until I dug out that old sim. because the error was sim not inserted (not bad sim) Jul 27 06:43:04 that and there are only 2 major us gsm providers... Jul 27 06:43:21 T Jul 27 06:43:35 T-mobile and the lovley att Jul 27 06:43:57 I just bought a $25 dollar ATT prepaid plan to use with my neo but I cant cause of the damn 3g sim card problem Jul 27 06:43:58 tracfone's gsm in some places Jul 27 06:44:04 * linux_galore is happy all the mobile netowrks use GSM here in Australia. Jul 27 06:44:14 roh: have you seen my post on the community list? Jul 27 06:44:34 yep Jul 27 06:44:52 calamous_: have noted that '[x] I have been warned!' when placing your order? :) Jul 27 06:45:23 Ynezz: dont be dumb. Jul 27 06:46:02 wait, i have to look up dumb in my translator Jul 27 06:46:29 calamous_: you will find the OM will be very rough around the edges for a while Jul 27 06:46:47 Hey thats fine, thats why I got into it Jul 27 06:47:16 I can recomplie software, I can't recompile hardware Jul 27 06:47:20 calamous_: the company i work for has just spent 2 years developing the firmware for an VoIP phone and we still find bugs Jul 27 06:47:50 linux_galore: naturally Jul 27 06:48:19 calamous_: the OM isnt even "alpha" in my books so the fatc you can boot it up is amazing lol Jul 27 06:49:27 I'm not trying to replace my phone with the neo yet, I'm trying to work on the neo. and while I can do some things, I really want to play around with the GSM part (since it is a phone) but I cant if the Cylapso cant handle 3g cards Jul 27 06:49:50 you don't have other types of card? Jul 27 06:50:24 i mean in US Jul 27 06:50:35 I have a deactivated old cingular card. but of course AT+CREG fails Jul 27 06:50:41 calamous_: I'll give you $20 for it ;) Jul 27 06:50:43 With error CME 32 Jul 27 06:50:59 I don't know what's that anyway Jul 27 06:51:02 so If i wanted I could test out the "phone" parts by dialing 911 but I dont think the police would be very happ Jul 27 06:51:03 y Jul 27 06:51:15 calamous_: openmoko guys are based in the USA so they will be getting similar problem Jul 27 06:51:17 ynezz: well. there is one way to find out read the GSM specifications Jul 27 06:51:41 you can buy some used prepaid card, older one which probably won't be 3G Jul 27 06:51:43 or no? Jul 27 06:51:53 Good. Earlier lots of guys were complaining out the 3g sim card problem Jul 27 06:52:24 and they will more if they'll send neo back for gsm firmware reflash :p Jul 27 06:52:32 ynezz: I would love to find an older pre paid plan. That way I can work on phone apps and not worry about when the 3g sim card problem is fixed Jul 27 06:52:47 why do you need plan? i simply don't get it :) Jul 27 06:52:49 * linux_galore sits waits for a GTA02 and pats himself on the back for his wisdom Jul 27 06:52:58 i have like 10 prepaid cards here Jul 27 06:52:59 Well, I dont know if the cylapso hardware needs to be upgraded or I can just flash this problem away Jul 27 06:53:06 you can't Jul 27 06:53:11 that's the point Jul 27 06:53:21 soe it will take some time anyway Jul 27 06:53:24 ... i wonder if tracfone sims work Jul 27 06:53:29 go and find some card which work Jul 27 06:53:36 GTA02 wont be any different if we dont fix GTA01v4 Jul 27 06:53:38 fast fix Jul 27 06:53:53 they'll fix it for sure Jul 27 06:54:03 it's show stopper... Jul 27 06:54:09 calamous_: yeah but they wont go into full production till many of the serious bugs in the GTA01 are fixed Jul 27 06:54:29 Yes. *we* are here to assist with fixing those bugs. Jul 27 06:54:57 If we are not it may as well have been a closed source project in which they release the final source when they are done Jul 27 06:56:32 ynezz: people on the list say that the 3G cards should "just" work. but others have reported problems with these cards Jul 27 06:56:32 calamous_: could be something very vague in the way the kernel identifies some data from the sim Jul 27 06:56:39 counter_msg (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in Jul 27 06:56:39 aloril changed counter prefix message to (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in Jul 27 06:57:21 linux_galore: good though. perhaps its just throwing up instead of trying a different routein because the people on the list say the card should work with older phones Jul 27 06:57:42 calamous_: what suprised me is they didnt offer an external sim break out kit to look at the data Jul 27 06:58:17 linux_galore: yeah. I dont know much about the sim card but it has an actual CPU in it right? its not just like a storage chip Jul 27 06:58:21 you can with smart reader Jul 27 06:58:37 and with sim spy tool Jul 27 06:58:44 calamous_: yeah its a special asic chip Jul 27 06:59:09 it must handle basic key exchange for network authentication right? Jul 27 06:59:10 its not storage Jul 27 06:59:37 It has some storage on it though Jul 27 06:59:58 i meant smart card reader Jul 27 07:00:07 calamous_: yes it has "some" storage, the funny thing is the sims can vary allot though Jul 27 07:01:02 linux_galore: do you know how tamper proof they are? some security chips "self destruct" (lol) if you tamper with them Jul 27 07:01:16 calamous_: you may find the sims they use in TW are a very different animal to the ones in the USA Jul 27 07:01:44 the ones in the USA automatically report stuff to the NSA while the ones in TW cook you dinner? Jul 27 07:01:53 lol Jul 27 07:03:07 calamous_: FIC actually sell phones in the USA so Im surprised they didnt pick it up Jul 27 07:03:08 that's one thing that bothers me, there have been cases in the past of mics been switched on remotely for "legal" reasons and because it's closed source, that's still possible :/ Jul 27 07:03:30 doc|home: yep Jul 27 07:03:47 would it be possible to kill the mic in software unless a call is underway? Jul 27 07:03:53 doc|home: welcome to the USA Jul 27 07:03:55 doc|home: the 3G phones running Wince can be hacked into Jul 27 07:04:03 calamous_: I'm in canada :) Jul 27 07:04:08 anything running win* can be hacked Jul 27 07:04:13 linux_galore: it's wince, of course it can :) Jul 27 07:04:28 calamous_: This isnt the USA Jul 27 07:04:40 there was recently a network trojon that setup office in wince phones Jul 27 07:04:50 I mean, there's an entire criminal underworld market out there, just waiting for a properly open source solution ;) Jul 27 07:05:28 doc|home: i said that last week, the OM will become the best spy phone around Jul 27 07:05:33 hads: I'm not advicating the USA Jul 27 07:05:49 I'm moving out of here when I can Jul 27 07:05:58 GPS+Opensource Mobile = way cool spy phone Jul 27 07:06:04 I would love to live in TW over the US any day Jul 27 07:06:20 or Australia Jul 27 07:06:44 calamous_: TW has its won problem, you know its easier to buy TW made hardware in the USA than it is in TW lol Jul 27 07:06:47 own* Jul 27 07:07:02 lol no I didnt Jul 27 07:07:05 <-- Australia Jul 27 07:07:08 But do you have good health care? Jul 27 07:07:29 calamous_: the hospitals here are very good Jul 27 07:07:46 Hospitals here are very good if you have *lots* of money Jul 27 07:07:51 linux_galore: depends, GPS can be tracked too, right? :) Jul 27 07:07:59 calamous_: you pay 3% (more if your on a high income) for universal health cover Jul 27 07:08:01 linux_galore: it's just the doctors under suspicion of terrorism we need to watch out for ;-) Jul 27 07:08:18 <-- Australia too Jul 27 07:08:18 linux_galore: I love that system. I wish we had that here Jul 27 07:08:43 I would prefer more socialized services and heigher taxes Jul 27 07:08:51 calamous_: its funny but we pay less per person for health cover than the USA Jul 27 07:08:56 Yes Jul 27 07:09:07 Because you belive in preventative care Jul 27 07:09:20 calamous_: the problem with the US system is most of the money goes into companies profits Jul 27 07:09:25 we believe in pharmaceuticals Jul 27 07:09:32 In the US HMOs dont want to spend anything, but somtimes they have to and its a lot fore than if the did before Jul 27 07:09:40 Drug patents kill people Jul 27 07:09:59 So anyway, back to openmoko .... Jul 27 07:10:43 Yes back to openmoko on the neo Jul 27 07:11:09 evening Jul 27 07:11:14 calamous_: well its a wholeistic approach to health care, for starters drugs are cheaper because the government wont allow a new drug to be listed unless its allot better than the cheaper older version, in the USA people are paying for the latest gee-wiz drugs but the reality is they are no better or in some cases worse than the previously used drugs Jul 27 07:11:15 any other thoughs about 3G (at&T) sim cards in the neo Jul 27 07:11:55 calamous_: tried borrowing cards from friends to see what might work? Jul 27 07:12:26 besides, at & t are evil Jul 27 07:12:33 isn't it the case that all sim handling between the AT command and the card is done by the firmware on the GSM module, so if it doesn't work, it doesn't work and the only fix is a firmware upgrade on the GSM module (which can't be done in the field except by a duly authorised and NDA'd openmoko employee) ? Jul 27 07:12:34 linux_galore: Yes, do you know much organic chem, do you know what steriochemistry is or an enantiomer is? Jul 27 07:12:37 calamous_: on average the USA spends more per person than most countries but actually offers less Jul 27 07:12:53 linux_galore: yes that is true we spend more and get less Jul 27 07:13:29 doc|home: I have tried may sim cards. I'm going to meet up with another gentlemen from chicago who also has the neo next week Jul 27 07:13:32 rwhitby sadly true. we will research the problem and then find a way Jul 27 07:13:46 calamous_: the US drug industry has higher returns than banks and oil companies, think on that for a moment Jul 27 07:13:49 linux_galore, calamous_, don't forget that people log this channel when they are not here, and expect to see reasonably on-topic discussion ... ;-) Jul 27 07:14:14 calamous_: were is the money coming from, then you realise why you get less for more Jul 27 07:14:15 linux_galore: its basically like the mirror image of a molicule. Some mirror images are both active like ibuprofin Jul 27 07:14:18 rwhitby irc and on-topic? youre kiddin Jul 27 07:14:22 ;) Jul 27 07:14:27 roh: one can try ;-) Jul 27 07:14:37 rwhitby: a futile hope Jul 27 07:14:45 linux_galore: I could not agree with you more. its redicuous that the american population tolerates it Jul 27 07:14:51 lies, #gentoo is kept on-topic :) Jul 27 07:15:03 anyway companies patent the mirror image of drugs after their 17yr patent runs out Jul 27 07:15:18 rwhitby: 1. when is my phone being delivered, 2 why doesnt my phone work 3. my mokobuild file doesnt work Jul 27 07:15:22 if it isnt harmful (some enantiomers are) Jul 27 07:15:34 Patent law here is horrible Jul 27 07:15:58 calamous_: well the mirror drug scam didnt work here in Australia Jul 27 07:16:04 linux_galore: you can add 4. why doesn't my at&t 3g sim card work now too Jul 27 07:16:15 good Jul 27 07:16:23 rwhitby: you have the same problem? Jul 27 07:16:24 .oO(uh uh... now they are playing with pandoras box of (inter)nationalpatent-law *searching for cover*) Jul 27 07:16:35 I wonder if at&t is doing some non standard thing Jul 27 07:16:36 calamous_: no, I have a good old aussie 2G sim Jul 27 07:17:00 * linux_galore has a nice collection of sim cards Jul 27 07:17:26 * rwhitby has two neo's, both of which have dead batteries which refuse to recharge ... Jul 27 07:17:40 why are they dead? have you killed them :) Jul 27 07:18:12 linux_galore: do you accept private messages? Jul 27 07:18:13 rwhitby: there was an image on the wiki of the om battery being charged on a cheap Nokia charging station Jul 27 07:18:17 i thought batteries only really died if you overdischarge them Jul 27 07:18:45 linux_galore: cheap 3rdparty charger for nokia bl-5c batteries Jul 27 07:18:45 calamous_: Im about to take off in 2 min Jul 27 07:19:04 linux_galore: I use such one and it is very usefull Jul 27 07:19:08 linux_galore: well have a good day sir. I'm about to go to bed Jul 27 07:19:09 * hrw|gone -> out Jul 27 07:19:44 anyway b'duh b'duh thats all folks!! Jul 27 07:22:41 good morning lrg Jul 27 07:22:42 hrw|gone: yeah, I need to get one of those chargers it seems Jul 27 07:23:01 hey koen Jul 27 07:31:02 how much are bl-5c's? Jul 27 07:43:21 calamous_ can you provide me with some hi-res photos of both sides of the simcard? or put it on some scanner Jul 27 07:43:52 calamous_ i want to find out the vendor. g&d, gemplus or whatever Jul 27 07:44:03 cheerio ;) Jul 27 07:44:33 calamous_: can you take a picture of your SIM? Jul 27 07:46:51 * aloril wonders if Engadget or any other bigger site ordered Neo1973 Jul 27 07:50:33 no word on t-mobile sims? Jul 27 07:50:35 gizmodo had some coverage on it Jul 27 07:51:13 hm... time to do a clean build once more Jul 27 07:51:38 bmidgley: there are quite a number of different t-mobiles out there ;) and even more different SIMs i guess. Jul 27 07:53:47 nibbler_de: right... i'm thinking US t-mobile and whatever kind of sim they currently hand out... :) Jul 27 07:53:53 openmoko: 03werner * r2533 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (config.example setup.sh): Jul 27 07:53:53 openmoko: - made bv4 the default, instead of bv3 Jul 27 07:53:53 openmoko: - removed confusing ancient v3 and v4 from config.example Jul 27 07:54:14 holy crap Jul 27 07:54:30 * FuzzyCat is holding a pico itx board... Jul 27 07:54:48 it's basically the size of a 2.5" hdd Jul 27 07:57:58 bmidgley: without more details it will be hard to tell Jul 27 07:59:52 calamous_: i bought a 3g sim card from at&t today, same number as you Jul 27 08:00:22 sunkist have a digicam or a scanner at hand? Jul 27 08:00:44 i have a neo! Jul 27 08:00:52 =D Jul 27 08:01:09 or a card reader and the appropriate software to figure out what the vendor of the card is Jul 27 08:01:17 yes Jul 27 08:01:39 digicam & scanner I have Jul 27 08:02:38 and, talking like yoda you are ;) Jul 27 08:03:16 then a picture of his card he shall make! ;) Jul 27 08:03:23 nibbler_de: does gizmodo have one in their 'hand'? (search in their site doesn't give any other than old stuff) Jul 27 08:03:24 sunkist then please do us a nice closeup of your som front and back Jul 27 08:03:45 som? Jul 27 08:03:45 sunkist: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 27 08:03:56 sunkist sorry.. sim Jul 27 08:04:10 aloril: aparently not. as i just found some strange coverage about a multitouch display which doesn't exist Jul 27 08:04:47 ok but without the serial :) Jul 27 08:06:03 the serial is not of value for anybody as it is just some number that identifies the piece of plastic (your SIM) but no data on it Jul 27 08:07:25 interesting to see coverage of Neo1973, more from viewpoint of "how cluefull/clueless journalists" are than any new information about Neo1973 ;-) Jul 27 08:08:02 true except if u work at at&t :) Jul 27 08:09:27 i'm scanning Jul 27 08:14:41 http://i14.tinypic.com/6cze61w.jpg Jul 27 08:15:22 http://i14.tinypic.com/5z41o5z.jpg Jul 27 08:15:30 "Sean Moss-Pultz: We plan on going 3G next year. .. Adding 3G would increase the cost by more than 80 percent." http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,134987-c,cellphones/article.html Jul 27 08:15:30 That doesn't seem particually helpful. Jul 27 08:15:31 good enough/ Jul 27 08:15:47 ok i'll do full scan Jul 27 08:16:11 it is helpfull Jul 27 08:16:26 * nibbler_de has seen enough Jul 27 08:16:32 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1]] Jul 27 08:16:34 when i'm back home i can tell you the vendor Jul 27 08:16:55 Impressive. Jul 27 08:17:10 as i recall the design and can match it to one of my cards for sure. Jul 27 08:18:26 i suspect it's a card from Oberthur Jul 27 08:18:52 yup Jul 27 08:18:53 it is Jul 27 08:18:55 http://www.oberthurcs.com/getpage.aspx?id=65 Jul 27 08:19:11 it's a SIMphonIC 3G Jul 27 08:20:14 http://i10.tinypic.com/4v4xbg8.jpg Jul 27 08:20:35 want the other side too? Jul 27 08:20:35 yup Jul 27 08:20:38 no Jul 27 08:20:44 ok Jul 27 08:20:48 definitely a Oberthur CS SIMphonIC 3G Jul 27 08:21:53 it is a really nice card though Jul 27 08:22:26 is it capable 2.5g? Jul 27 08:22:35 that's not a matter of the card Jul 27 08:22:35 script line already said it, but pasting it again: new info by HaraldWelte at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1 Jul 27 08:22:42 but yes - it is Jul 27 08:23:29 what's the verdict on these card, can i get it to work on or not? Jul 27 08:24:10 anybody who got device should read it IMHO Jul 27 08:24:43 so no secret software on the new phones then :-) Jul 27 08:24:44 i don't know the Neo's hardware so i guess fic/the openmoko guys could investigate this further Jul 27 08:25:12 nibbler_de do you own such a card and can bring it to the camp? Jul 27 08:25:52 roh: i can have a look at my collection, yes. i assume the .nl "lebara" prepaid card is one of them Jul 27 08:27:03 btw.. is there gllin in rootfs? Jul 27 08:30:02 XorA, do you have some time to look at the 2.6.22.1 port? There is some alsa problem left... (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2007-July/000227.html) Jul 27 08:31:01 Shoragan: I need to clear a task at work before I can get back to Neo support Jul 27 08:31:11 ok Jul 27 08:31:13 Shoragan: what alsa problems BTW Jul 27 08:31:35 take a look at the mail Jul 27 08:32:16 Shoragan: you missed a patch Jul 27 08:32:32 which one? Jul 27 08:32:42 isn't pulseaudio blocking the device? Jul 27 08:32:59 Shoragan: Look at the openmoko-kernel list Jul 27 08:33:18 Rtp replied to your post Jul 27 08:34:02 the patch mentioned in rtp's mail is applied Jul 27 08:34:21 howdy Jul 27 08:34:31 http://svn.openmoko.org/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.22.x/patches/series Jul 27 08:35:59 Shoragan: odd as it worked for rtp in 2.6.23 Jul 27 08:36:16 Was there any news on what the discount would be for the second release, for stage 01 purchasers? Jul 27 08:36:17 Dongxu: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 27 08:36:37 Dongxu: None Jul 27 08:36:47 Dongxu: its part of GTA01 price already ($350 -> $300) Jul 27 08:36:49 hads: oh, thanks. Jul 27 08:36:52 Dongxu: P1 was discounted instead Jul 27 08:36:58 Okay, cool as. Jul 27 08:37:10 XorA, the told me, so i tried to use the commit from 2.6.23-rc1 Jul 27 08:37:18 s/the/he/ Jul 27 08:37:18 Shoragan meant: XorA, he told me, so i tried to use the commit from 2.6.23-rc1 Jul 27 08:37:38 Shoragan: <4>mapped channel 10 to 2 Jul 27 08:37:38 <3>asoc: can't set platform s3c24xx-audio hw params Jul 27 08:37:38 <4>mapped channel 10 to 2 Jul 27 08:37:51 Shoragan: that looks like it asked for DMA twice, exactly what that patch prevents Jul 27 08:38:17 hmm, then i may have broken something ;) Jul 27 08:39:40 i'll verify that i've applied that patch in my test build later Jul 27 08:44:46 hi :) Jul 27 08:49:55 Well thanks guys. Jul 27 08:52:54 * FuzzyCat wonders if a taiwanese day is really a week or something.. Jul 27 08:54:28 morning Jul 27 08:54:32 FuzzyCat: that would explain a lot Jul 27 09:14:39 any reviews of P1/SH1 hardware/software? Jul 27 09:15:04 software review is pointless Jul 27 09:19:45 XorA, why? Jul 27 09:20:59 Dmitry_Platonov: because there is nearly no software for review Jul 27 09:21:08 Dmitry_Platonov: it depends on what day you install the software Jul 27 09:23:59 what would be nice would be a very small version of that : www.io2technology.com Jul 27 09:24:46 XorA, I mean latest build 8) Jul 27 09:25:18 Dmitry_Platonov: latest build changes every couple of hours, I dont think you quite understand the development model Jul 27 09:25:25 openmoko: 03thomas * r2534 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2008/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-2/gtk-2.0/openmoko-contacts: * Add colours for openmoko-contacts history view Jul 27 09:25:29 see :-D Jul 27 09:26:21 Dmitry_Platonov: official latest? developer latest? Jul 27 09:26:55 my latest != openmoko latest for example as I have some apps which will show in future probably Jul 27 09:28:12 openmoko: 03thomas * r2535 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2008/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-2/gtk-2.0/openmoko-contacts: * Remove font specification from openmoko-contacts history style Jul 27 09:28:51 Can anyone tell me when mokobot died? Jul 27 09:29:00 ~seen mokobot Jul 27 09:29:03 mokobot was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko, 17h 48m 23s ago, saying: 'roh is currently on #openmoko (1d 21h 24m 29s). Has said a total of 18 messages. Is idling for 21h 46m 4s, last said: 'hopefully there will be a lot of hands on hacking and not too much would be could be ... Jul 27 09:29:22 I hope that it will not reapper Jul 27 09:29:34 That was me ages ago. Jul 27 09:30:29 hrw: Why not? Jul 27 09:31:26 it conflict with apt Jul 27 09:31:36 ~lart mokobot Jul 27 09:31:36 * mokobot judo chops hrw Jul 27 09:31:36 * apt_ eats mokobot and falls over dead Jul 27 09:31:38 FuzzyCat: Cool, is it a VIA board? Jul 27 09:31:38 ewanm89_laptop: change the activiation character for mokobot please Jul 27 09:31:39 hrw: I'm working on that. Jul 27 09:31:49 hrw, anything will do. Something is better then nothing. Jul 27 09:32:03 Dmitry_Platonov: fire up the software, take a look Jul 27 09:32:17 XorA: I wishn they made it easy for me to find the activation character. Jul 27 09:32:26 ewanm89_laptop: heh heh Jul 27 09:32:53 and now we have apt (freenode standard), cdbot (bugtracker), aloril (planet, wiki) and mokobot.. Jul 27 09:33:07 Some idiot hardcoded it in, so I'm trawling through all the perl code for it. Jul 27 09:33:09 ewanm89_laptop: then put mokobot on #ewanm89 and test it there Jul 27 09:33:16 hrw: any idea how to get apt to join a channel BTW? Jul 27 09:33:21 XorA: nope Jul 27 09:33:27 ~lart apt/ibot Jul 27 09:33:28 * mokobot does a little 'dpkg -P apt/ibot' action Jul 27 09:33:28 * apt_ takes out apt/ibot with the trash Jul 27 09:33:50 XorA: I do, but you have to be a user registered to allow it. Jul 27 09:33:52 XorA: there are commands for it but it refuse them for me Jul 27 09:34:08 ewanm89_laptop: how do you get registered Jul 27 09:34:19 ewanm89_laptop: or are you such a person? Jul 27 09:34:46 XorA: Speak to someone who is allowed to register, I'm the one for mokobot, Tim Riker is apt. Jul 27 09:35:15 obviously gone are the days you used to just ask the bots to join :-( Jul 27 09:36:05 years ago I spent few years maintaining botnet on one of ircnet channels Jul 27 09:36:10 no more Jul 27 09:39:39 XorA: The problem is bots are far too powerfull to sensibly allow it. Jul 27 09:40:16 That is why I started mokobot, to have it in #openmoko-dev too. Jul 27 09:40:41 there is a #openmoko-dev Jul 27 09:41:21 i still see no reason for any bot at all. thats why freenode is bearable at all. less bots. no ops Jul 27 09:42:05 ~p1 Jul 27 09:42:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/P1_Owners Jul 27 09:42:27 #openmoko #openmoko-dev #openmoko-devel - who will start #openmoko-development? Jul 27 09:42:37 Sublime, your order going all wrong? :/ Jul 27 09:42:39 roh: apt/ibot is useful for channel logging Jul 27 09:42:51 roh: but I hate this botstorm that is happening Jul 27 09:43:11 daxxar, yes, VIA Jul 27 09:43:23 XorA for logging every client surfices Jul 27 09:43:36 FuzzyCat: Specs? Jul 27 09:43:45 roh: but apt/ibot logs when you are not logged in, make it easy to find info using google Jul 27 09:44:29 daxxar, http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=11693 Jul 27 09:44:46 XorA i know what youre saying.. i just wanted to point out that the logging aspect is not different between a client on a server and some bot. thus no need to write any scriptfoo or so. Jul 27 09:45:09 roh: oh yes, there is 99% of crap ibot/apt doesnt need to do Jul 27 09:45:43 Cool, I've got a, uhm, mini-itx running as my media center. :-9 Jul 27 09:45:44 :-) Jul 27 09:45:53 XorA in the end it boils down to: is a bot answering or not. when yes it mostly is useless, but i have to say this 'question asked by new user within $timeframe -> faqurl' is practical. Jul 27 09:46:02 What char do you want mokobot to use? Jul 27 09:46:27 ewanm89_laptop: the æ character would be good :-D Jul 27 09:46:43 & Jul 27 09:47:17 Hello Lord Jul 27 09:47:18 XorA: Is that supposed to be an ampersand? Jul 27 09:47:19 daxxar, it's just tiney :) Jul 27 09:47:24 ewanm89_laptop when you ask me it should be as quiet as possible and only answering to the people who talk to it, not always directly to the channel. too much senseless scrolling Jul 27 09:47:31 ewanm89_laptop: its (ae) Jul 27 09:47:42 XorA: No then. Jul 27 09:47:54 ł Jul 27 09:48:12 roh: Most of the time it does Jul 27 09:48:25 ẘ maybe? Jul 27 09:48:38 XorA: Nothing I need a char table or obscure keystrokes for. Jul 27 09:48:55 ŧ is handy Jul 27 09:48:59 µ Jul 27 09:49:04 iirc mokobot only responds to questions, and dtx's abuse Jul 27 09:49:25 And a little onjoin. Jul 27 09:49:27 ←↓→ Jul 27 09:49:30 aloril posts useful info.. and apt... well it;s just apt Jul 27 09:49:35 ŧ←↓→↓þðđŋħĸµ Jul 27 09:49:44 hrw: toprow goodness :-) Jul 27 09:50:12 &dtx Jul 27 09:50:20 &dtx Jul 27 09:50:25 disney.... Jul 27 09:50:25 ~dtx Jul 27 09:50:26 A seriously annoying gimp. Jul 27 09:50:38 /ignore mokobot all Jul 27 09:50:45 safest way Jul 27 09:51:35 &dtx Jul 27 09:51:38 /shitlist mokobot :-) Jul 27 09:51:39 A seriously annoying gimp. Jul 27 09:51:49 It works now Jul 27 09:51:52 ~dtx Jul 27 09:51:58 Sorted Jul 27 09:52:10 argh.. Jul 27 09:52:24 ~curse microsoft for product keys Jul 27 09:52:25 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, microsoft for product keys ! Jul 27 09:52:38 * cesarb reading Harald's changes at [[SH1]] Jul 27 09:52:38 lol Jul 27 09:52:43 hrw: I miss the old days when all MS keys were 111-1111 Jul 27 09:52:43 my dell has license for xp pro but refuse to instal with that key Jul 27 09:52:48 No rootfs? That means no gllin, right? Jul 27 09:52:55 XorA: Me to. Jul 27 09:53:03 s/o./oo. Jul 27 09:53:08 gliin is not released at all Jul 27 09:53:12 Or does it come with gllin on one of the SD cards? Jul 27 09:53:31 hrw: shouldn't gllin come with the phones (and only the phones)? Jul 27 09:53:54 cesarb: no idea Jul 27 09:55:00 If it doesn't have gllin, the only option would be sphyrna... Jul 27 09:55:32 the inclusion of gllin was an error according to inside sources Jul 27 09:55:52 a lucky error for us :-) Jul 27 09:56:30 cesarb: for small values of option. Jul 27 09:57:30 What's gllin? Jul 27 09:57:37 GPS driver Jul 27 09:57:46 rather gps tester then driver Jul 27 09:57:51 I thought it was meant to be shipped with it? Jul 27 09:57:53 It's a driver. Jul 27 09:58:00 It spits out NMEA. Jul 27 09:58:09 It can be used as any serial GPS. Jul 27 09:58:27 Ok - it's got problems, but it's still a perfectly useful driver. Jul 27 09:58:50 Why is it an error to include it? Jul 27 09:59:11 In theory it's an error. It'd be nice to have it open-source. Jul 27 09:59:23 In practice - there is no open-source driver (yet?) Jul 27 09:59:32 Some really clever people are working on it. Jul 27 09:59:43 I know there's no opensource driver yet, so that's why they were *supposed* to ship a closedsource one, right? Jul 27 10:00:39 :/ I appear to have buggered up my laptop install Jul 27 10:04:21 hrw: nslu2-log is a bot too, but it's just a silent logger-bot :-) Jul 27 10:07:11 is gllin on the neo or not ( no rootfs --> where is gllin?) Jul 27 10:10:03 * XorA waves his hand "this is not the gllin you are looking for" Jul 27 10:10:10 is the gps like a winmodem? e.g. the binary driver offloads some of the logic onto the host CPU? Jul 27 10:10:15 yes Jul 27 10:10:20 I see Jul 27 10:10:21 Which in some ways is a good thing. Jul 27 10:10:31 See Hammerhead/Protocol on the wiki Jul 27 10:10:43 noted Jul 27 10:10:45 and http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=sphyrna Jul 27 10:11:18 Which is more a collection of notes, than a driver ATM. Jul 27 10:11:34 i mean to backup gllin prior to flash new rootfs Jul 27 10:11:47 bug_: in dm2 directory Jul 27 10:12:04 XorA: thanks Jul 27 10:17:32 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:CathodioN]] [[User:Das_nl]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Eindhoven]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Den_Haag]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Amsterdam]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Clocks]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Netherlands]] Jul 27 10:32:12 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: Product naming / wiki page naming / restructuring Jul 27 10:32:36 is the ar6000 chip available on a mini pci express card? Jul 27 10:38:02 buz nope. its avail. as sdio-card Jul 27 10:38:17 not much use to put it into a macbook ;) Jul 27 10:38:45 btw, I saw at lwn announced an sdio stack going into the linux kernel base; anything to do with moko's sdio work for gta02? Jul 27 10:39:53 i think that comes from atheros yes Jul 27 10:40:28 but they were working on it before moko came around Jul 27 10:40:37 apparently by Pierre Ossman and Nicolas Pitre Jul 27 10:40:39 buz what should a b/g sdio chipset be good for when there is an internal abg networking card? Jul 27 10:40:52 the internal card is broadcom shite Jul 27 10:40:56 mjr, morning ;) Jul 27 10:41:30 counter Jul 27 10:41:31 (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in 4 days 13:18:23 (4.554±2.5 days) (1780;251) Jul 27 10:42:09 ossman, do I know you or do you think I'm MJ Ray? ;) Jul 27 10:42:25 buz its minipci express.. so swap it with a intel 3945 or better 3965 (802.11n) and youre done Jul 27 10:42:32 mjr, You mentioned my name ;) Jul 27 10:42:38 ossman, oh, right, *duh* :) Jul 27 10:42:45 well intel still hasnt got entirely free drivers, but yeah, i might do that Jul 27 10:42:48 I'll get me coat. Jul 27 10:43:43 buz they have. the only binary component in the meantime is firmware which runs on the card itself.. it does not get better anywhere Jul 27 10:43:44 buz, the sdio stack is not based on the atheros one, it's entirely new. and we actually started writing it after moko arrived. I've just been planning to do it for ages :) Jul 27 10:44:05 hi all Jul 27 10:44:36 so, the moko sdio bit is separate from the one that's going into the kernel? One would wish for integration at some point but obviously no great rush... Jul 27 10:45:23 buz, and was it so that also the bluetooth was behind sdio instead of USB in GTA-02 Jul 27 10:45:52 oh thats good Jul 27 10:46:03 no that was a question :) Jul 27 10:46:08 forgot the ?, apparently Jul 27 10:46:19 oh ;) Jul 27 10:46:45 mjr, I haven't seen anything about sdio in moko Jul 27 10:46:52 got links? Jul 27 10:46:53 but there was some mail on the list that almost implied so Jul 27 10:47:11 ossman, wait a moment; there was a list mention of the ar6k going behind sdio Jul 27 10:47:15 oko Jul 27 10:47:25 in response to me Jul 27 10:47:38 sdio or spi? Jul 27 10:47:43 or ssp? Jul 27 10:48:37 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/007242.html Jul 27 10:48:44 "thats why the ar6k module will be connected via 4bit wide sdio" Jul 27 10:48:57 so that's probably with the atheros' stack Jul 27 10:49:20 and didn't imply so much about the bt as I recalled Jul 27 10:49:37 so, still curious if the bt will remain behind usb Jul 27 10:50:05 most bt chips are usb based, so that's rather likely Jul 27 10:50:51 The BT will be on USB. Jul 27 10:50:54 ok Jul 27 10:51:01 Look on the neo1973-hardare list Jul 27 10:51:24 so sdio for wifi, usb for bt Jul 27 10:51:34 fair enough Jul 27 10:51:37 as for the ar6k, we could certainly write a driver for it since atheros code is completely open. but I have no hardware for development Jul 27 10:51:50 I sincerly hope the ar6k will do packet injection. Jul 27 10:52:01 a phone that can crack WEP... oh baby Jul 27 10:52:04 it will AIUI Jul 27 10:52:06 \o/ Jul 27 10:52:11 ossman, you mean driver on top of your stack instead of the atheros one, presumably? Jul 27 10:52:16 yes Jul 27 10:52:21 *nod* Jul 27 10:52:24 how long did it take to compile the openmoko-devel-image? Jul 27 10:52:46 long Jul 27 10:52:55 okay :) Jul 27 10:53:41 Leave overnight and hope no errors typ of long. Jul 27 10:54:08 * ewon wonders if he could swing distcc access on a render farm somewhere Jul 27 10:54:10 s/typ/type/ Jul 27 10:54:10 ewanm89_laptop meant: Leave overnight and hope no errors type of long. Jul 27 10:54:12 ossman, well, later this year hopefully the hardware will be plentiful :] Jul 27 10:54:30 I wonder when they will start accepting orders for GTA02 Jul 27 10:55:20 what do you think about bitbake ? Jul 27 10:55:50 I need GTA02 Jul 27 11:00:09 hmm, interesting; as the wifi goes to 2442, the microsd slots changes to be wired to the glamo3362 Jul 27 11:00:16 BitBake is able to generate dependency graphs using the dot syntax <--- i like this feature Jul 27 11:01:18 mjr, sure? that would probably mean a new driver, which can be a pain Jul 27 11:01:36 wonder if the need for more sd was one of the reasons they got the glamo ;) Jul 27 11:01:50 ossman, Harald says so here: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/neo1973-hardware/2007-July/000186.html Jul 27 11:02:34 ok Jul 27 11:03:32 nothing about a SD/MMC controller is mentioned on the product page Jul 27 11:03:59 but then, the product page was really sparse Jul 27 11:04:06 no good datasheet for that Jul 27 11:05:05 writing a driver for SD Card sure is a pain in the ass. Jul 27 11:05:25 " It seems that it is intertwisted with complex things Jul 27 11:05:26 like dbus, that I definitely do not want to have on my machines due to Jul 27 11:05:26 its resource usage." Jul 27 11:05:46 if dbus runs on my 100 MHz avr32 it will run on haralds 4way powermac Jul 27 11:05:52 (talking about FUD) Jul 27 11:12:13 its all greek to me Jul 27 11:16:35 D-Bus isn't too hard once you get the hang of the bindings. Jul 27 11:17:03 And the higher-level language bindings seem to be relatively simple Jul 27 11:17:06 the point was harald's FUD about resource usage Jul 27 11:17:20 Yep Jul 27 11:17:41 Was more thinking of the 'complex' bit but yeah I don't see it being a resource hog (compared to gnome, for example) Jul 27 11:17:44 someone should reply with "I don't use netfilter on my machine due to the resource usage" Jul 27 11:17:55 * * OM Bug 667 has been created by roh(AT)openmoko.org Jul 27 11:17:56 * * missing dependency on libusb in bluez-utils Jul 27 11:17:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=667 Jul 27 11:19:03 I don't use Vista on my machine... due to it's ressources usage Jul 27 11:19:13 openmoko: 03njp * r2536 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2008/libraries/libmokojournal/ (ChangeLog mokojournal/moko-journal.c): Jul 27 11:19:13 openmoko: 2007-07-27 Neil J. Patel Jul 27 11:19:13 openmoko: * mokojournal/moko-journal.c: (moko_journal_class_init): Jul 27 11:19:13 openmoko: Fixed signal marshalling problem. Jul 27 11:32:06 openmoko: 03njp * r2537 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2008/applications/openmoko-dialer/ (ChangeLog src/moko-history.c): Jul 27 11:32:06 openmoko: 2007-07-27 Neil J. Patel Jul 27 11:32:06 openmoko: * src/moko-history.c: (on_delete_clicked), (history_add_entry), Jul 27 11:32:06 openmoko: (on_entry_added_cb), (moko_history_load_entries): Jul 27 11:32:06 openmoko: Update to use the new mokojournal api. Jul 27 11:51:25 What's the GPS serial port again? Jul 27 11:51:55 ttySAC1 iirc Jul 27 11:58:28 *** glibc detected *** hhconsole: double free or corruption (out): 0x00013038 *** Jul 27 11:59:59 give you an idea how far behind the phones are in the USA, heres a Samsung phone with a 10mp camera and a proper zoom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iqHvjh26Lc&mode=related&search= Jul 27 12:00:20 i think that one has been around a while Jul 27 12:00:29 picture quality is said to be abysmal for a 10mp cam Jul 27 12:00:45 (or maybe i'm remembering it's 7mp brother) Jul 27 12:01:07 buz: well, of course, it's a sodding camera phone. they have to suck by definition :-) Jul 27 12:01:20 in general camera phones wont produce the image depth of a good quality DSLR Jul 27 12:01:21 one would think that zoom optics might be better Jul 27 12:01:28 anything over 6MP with a compact sensor will give abysmal results due to noise Jul 27 12:01:38 well obviously not, but they might come close to point and shoot ones Jul 27 12:01:47 especially with firmware that uses pixelbinning Jul 27 12:02:39 N95i is been brandished around by Nokia execs with 8GB storage capacity Jul 27 12:03:24 the whole phone is black, even the keys Jul 27 12:03:52 STEAL IT Jul 27 12:04:10 two laptops back for me and I had a laptop with a 6GB hardisk lol Jul 27 12:05:51 Samsung G600 looks pretty nice, basically a N95 clone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RY9BmfM8I4&mode=related&search= Jul 27 12:11:41 eat your heart out Apple, Latest Linux compiz effects http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUUAuTG26bY Jul 27 12:13:12 jeebus Jul 27 12:14:19 doesnt look that new Jul 27 12:14:55 the pc im using now already does most of that and more Jul 27 12:16:43 * ar1 say hello to all people Jul 27 12:17:12 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] [[Event_Field]] [[Email_Address_Field]] [[Devirginator]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] [[Data_Entry_Dialog]] [[Calculator]] [[Building_a_hello_world_application]] [[Bluetooth_Connection_Status]] [[Applications]] [[Application_Manager]] and other changes Jul 27 12:18:18 i get an error building with make openmoko-devel-image. Jul 27 12:21:01 yeah there are a few effects missing from the latest compiz-fussion build in that video likebeing able to put objects in the middle of the cube Jul 27 12:46:32 wow just found an 80Wh battery, that'll keep a neo going for a while Jul 27 12:46:37 nice Jul 27 12:46:40 lol Jul 27 12:46:40 form factor? Jul 27 12:46:52 ethanol driven? Jul 27 12:47:09 http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=SPEC&ModuleNo=48490&doy=27m7#spec Jul 27 12:47:22 not al all useful form factor, or technology, just amusing Jul 27 12:48:18 1Kg approx?? Jul 27 12:49:24 XorA: you're taking my V12 suggestion too seriously :D Jul 27 12:49:59 Stephmw: V12 as im pistoned engine? Jul 27 12:50:05 ~v12 Jul 27 12:50:06 extra, extra, read all about it, v12 is the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Jul 27 12:51:40 :p Jul 27 12:52:43 Hello master Jul 27 12:56:45 mokobot ? Jul 27 12:59:59 hi. anyone? Jul 27 13:00:06 ho Jul 27 13:00:27 it's so quiet here... Jul 27 13:00:32 ho Jul 27 13:00:35 server just split Jul 27 13:00:47 everyones playes with his moko Jul 27 13:00:59 not anyone has:( Jul 27 13:01:12 ...everyone who HAS a neo... Jul 27 13:01:13 * XorA chooses which Neo to play with Jul 27 13:01:15 ;) Jul 27 13:01:23 not my case :( Jul 27 13:01:36 it will come Jul 27 13:01:41 I waits for 2.0:( Jul 27 13:02:09 painly thing:) Jul 27 13:02:52 MetaBookfoziS: it will be worth the wait Jul 27 13:03:10 how do you all feel about the forum idea that has been proposed in the mailing lists? Jul 27 13:03:22 alep1: link? Jul 27 13:03:54 there is nothing official. yet. Jul 27 13:04:17 how much will the gta02 be ? Jul 27 13:04:22 400 $? Jul 27 13:04:22 Forums will be better when we have users, at current the email list is probably easier (although there are so many email lists it is hard to keep track even of them) Jul 27 13:04:25 * rwhitby yawns at the forum Jul 27 13:04:50 web forums are a plague Jul 27 13:04:52 they all suck Jul 27 13:04:58 at this time there are 355 folks in this "room" Jul 27 13:05:08 nbd: agreed Jul 27 13:05:18 I think it's a considerable number Jul 27 13:05:20 355 Jul 27 13:05:42 unless they are all bots... Jul 27 13:05:44 I prefer mailing lists and irc over forums. Jul 27 13:06:12 forum is good for the avaerage user! the masses Jul 27 13:06:33 how to install a package .... Jul 27 13:06:46 ipkg install? *g* Jul 27 13:06:47 The average user shouldn't know what a 'package' is... Jul 27 13:06:54 :) Jul 27 13:06:57 aiee, openstreetmap had precisely this discussion a few months back, nearly came to blows over it (irc / ml / forums that is ) Jul 27 13:07:09 the average user will not buy a neo Jul 27 13:07:24 :) Jul 27 13:07:24 woglinde: only if the UI is unfriendly (in that unix way) Jul 27 13:07:25 if only someone came up with a decent forum software that integrates well with news/mailinglist as backend Jul 27 13:07:30 as jgm said, there are so many lists, and I have 76 mails waiting me to be readed Jul 27 13:07:35 and it must not be written by php kiddies Jul 27 13:07:41 the problem the new generation of users have ISP that dont provide email, therefore they never learn to use it Jul 27 13:07:55 There's every reason why you should be able to sell this 'phone (or at least a 'phone with this software on it) to the masses Jul 27 13:08:03 cjb_ie: There is an applications program that allows graphical packagemanagement in openmoko. Jul 27 13:08:04 And if you can't then it suggests that the software has failed Jul 27 13:08:34 ewanm89_laptop: erm, i was talking about the irc / ml / forums debate Jul 27 13:08:44 IMHO the goal for this project shouldn't be phone for the masses but phone for us Jul 27 13:09:05 the mass part can be a side effect Jul 27 13:09:05 we will see Jul 27 13:09:09 raynet: no, a phone for the masses, so the masses subsadise a phone for us Jul 27 13:09:13 raynet: a 'phone for us (assuming is is the 350-odd people in this room) will fail Jul 27 13:09:18 Um j didn't work. Jul 27 13:09:19 s/is/us/ Jul 27 13:09:21 jgm meant: raynet: a 'phone for us (assuming us is the 350-odd people in this room) will fail Jul 27 13:09:31 jgm: There is an applications program that allows graphical packagemanagement in openmoko. Jul 27 13:09:38 it cannot fail Jul 27 13:09:39 cjb_ie: Sorry Jul 27 13:09:50 once i get my neo, it is there and wont go anywhere Jul 27 13:09:57 thus it cannot fail Jul 27 13:09:59 Plus I'm not even interested in writing software for a 'phone with so little interest. 'phones, especially their user interfaces, suck, and that's what I want to see fixed Jul 27 13:10:23 ewanm89_laptop: yeah I haven't looked at it yet but I'm hoping that it's *really* friendly Jul 27 13:10:26 But suspect not Jul 27 13:10:39 jgm: Fix it then, that is the beuty of openmoko. Jul 27 13:10:56 Well I'm currently building out the extensions framework (has anyone looked at that by the way?) Jul 27 13:11:07 I'm more of an infrastructure than an app guy Jul 27 13:11:07 to me, the problem with phones today is that they pretend to be computers but are sooo far from actually being that Jul 27 13:11:17 I'm not even thinking if this will be the phone for masses. I'm thinking about another tool to let us share knowledge, and a forum isn't that bad Jul 27 13:11:31 I DONT have to fiddle with certificates when developing for my desktop, but I do have to for my phone Jul 27 13:11:43 unless I like security dialogs Jul 27 13:12:15 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Extension_Framework Jul 27 13:12:29 the phone manuf. should just concede defeat and say "we dont know shit about software, someone please save us" Jul 27 13:12:32 And there is code if anyone wants it: ftp://ftp.devzero.net/openmoko/dist/omext.tar.gz Jul 27 13:13:25 jgm: looks complicated Jul 27 13:13:33 And a message on the mailing list talking about it: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/008293.html Jul 27 13:13:37 please start with use cases first Jul 27 13:13:53 guaqua: It isn't too bad actually Jul 27 13:14:07 and imo the location awareness should be built into geoclue Jul 27 13:14:16 There is some complexity there but that's because it is designed to be easier for the extension developer to write Jul 27 13:14:20 or how to determine the location Jul 27 13:14:57 It's not designed to have a load of functionality in itself, just to provide the ability for people to extend the 'core' functionality without having to hack the low-level stuff themselves Jul 27 13:16:20 hm, seems like the reservation on my account is gone and I have not been charged, weird Jul 27 13:16:44 Anyone experienced the same? Jul 27 13:16:52 is calling only one part of it? Jul 27 13:17:15 ? Jul 27 13:17:29 the way you pictured it, looks right, but i'm just asking are there other possible ways to use it? Jul 27 13:17:46 this is a computer with a phone attached after all, not just your regular cell phone Jul 27 13:18:33 Well the gsmd is just an example call, I used it partly because its an obvious 'phone feature and partly because the applications themselves are still pretty nebulous so it is hard to say what is going to exist to extend Jul 27 13:18:44 But it's a general extensions framework that could be used for pretty much anything Jul 27 13:19:23 As soon as I get a 'phone in my hands I'll pick a few apps and write some simple extensions so that people can see more of the applicability of the system Jul 27 13:19:32 But frankly even if it just extended gsmd it would be worth it Jul 27 13:19:38 definitely Jul 27 13:20:24 i've had this idea of a geoclue interface that would have some sort of fuzzy logic built into it Jul 27 13:20:43 so for example it could determine you are "at home" or "at work" Jul 27 13:20:56 it would see how it's connected to the internet Jul 27 13:21:07 use gps and any information it would get Jul 27 13:21:15 and the user could set the rules Jul 27 13:21:33 it might be useless, however, if the gps is as good as they've told Jul 27 13:22:33 So in that case the geolocation would be a separate app, but you could geo-enable existing application by building an extension that changed their behaviour depending on your location Jul 27 13:23:23 yeah Jul 27 13:26:10 guaqua: you could define your "home" location also through different parameters, like certain bluetooth devices that are present etc. Jul 27 13:27:17 Kensan: most definitely :) Jul 27 13:27:44 it would need a gui, some sort of a wizard to define the rules and the backend part Jul 27 13:29:38 example rules like that should go onto the wiki somewhere. Jul 27 13:30:00 it would need specifications Jul 27 13:30:09 infrastructure (based on dbus, I reckon) should be built to handle those rules conveniently Jul 27 13:30:21 sepcs follow from usecases Jul 27 13:30:27 s/sepcs/specs/ Jul 27 13:30:28 Kero meant: specs follow from usecases Jul 27 13:30:30 XorA, sound is working now, i had old module in my rootfs. :/ Jul 27 13:30:41 Shoragan: phew!!!! Jul 27 13:30:55 Kero: it would be based on the existing geoclue architecture Jul 27 13:31:11 and would use geoclue's other backends extensively Jul 27 13:32:37 guaqua: A wizard with a "scan now" function would be nice, then you could label it as a certain location like "home" or "work" etc. Jul 27 13:32:45 yeah Jul 27 13:32:51 * Kero deos not know geoclue Jul 27 13:33:20 maybe by answering questions like "is this your home wlan?" Jul 27 13:33:30 guaqua: how does geoclue relate to Dbus? Jul 27 13:33:33 does it involve probing bluetooth, wireless, wireless USB and GPS? Jul 27 13:33:40 geoclue is used via dbus Jul 27 13:34:14 Kero: i don't see a problem with probing those Jul 27 13:34:38 we'd just have to get the right combination working Jul 27 13:34:39 guaqua: so geoclue could propagate events via dbus? Jul 27 13:34:48 geoclue by itself doesn't do that Jul 27 13:35:19 so there would have to be another daemon asking geoclue about the current location Jul 27 13:35:53 aha, "GeoClue is a D-Bus API and library that provides all kinds of geographic information to applications." Jul 27 13:36:23 and my idea is basically creating an intelligent backend for geoclue that could be customized Jul 27 13:36:39 so that there wouldn't have to be more than one place to do it in Jul 27 13:36:41 'backend' ? Jul 27 13:36:55 backend/api Jul 27 13:37:06 gps is one backend in geoclue Jul 27 13:37:44 it also has some sort of wlan ip-based intelligent backend for determining the current location Jul 27 13:38:03 so gathering info from geoclue and saying "home" is not a backend, but a layer on top of. Jul 27 13:38:33 i'd implement a new backend to geoclue to do that Jul 27 13:38:44 so that pure geoclue could be used by the applications Jul 27 13:42:21 you should read the geoclue wiki Jul 27 13:42:32 seems geoclue is actually flexible enough to say "home". Jul 27 13:42:32 which can be found here: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/GeoClue Jul 27 13:42:37 yeah Jul 27 13:43:57 slightly wondering how an application would make clear it wants coordinates or something like "home" or "city". Jul 27 13:44:05 but I guess that's on the wiki then. Jul 27 13:44:42 mm, page I was reading alreayd was the wiki :) Jul 27 13:45:02 Kero: by asking geoclue's different backends Jul 27 13:45:25 so by asking geoclue for the city you are in, it would do the math, not the application you are working on Jul 27 13:45:41 Has anyone else tried an at&t sim card in their phone? Jul 27 13:45:48 there could be a city backend for that purpose Jul 27 13:45:50 guaqua: dev docs still need to be written :( Jul 27 13:46:03 calamous_: afaik the one with 3g-logo doesn't work Jul 27 13:46:09 calamous_: older one works Jul 27 13:46:22 Yep. same thing here Jul 27 13:46:46 It "should" work. People looked up the sim card online and said that it should work with 2g phones Jul 27 13:47:09 and someone on the list said that the sim card works in other old 2g phones, but not the neo Jul 27 13:47:10 sounds like a bug in openmoko Jul 27 13:47:20 or in the bootloader, whatever detects this Jul 27 13:47:30 Yeah, a pretty serious bug Jul 27 13:47:49 can't imagine, that a US provider has USIMs without normal GSM-SIM support Jul 27 13:48:37 coult it be, that this sims from AT&T are for UMTS and CDMA only? (no GSM?) Jul 27 13:48:39 Yeah me neither Jul 27 13:48:40 doesn't sound that special Jul 27 13:48:41 UK has gone the other way, all 3G phones are using SIM not USIM Jul 27 13:48:47 thomasg__: sim is gsm specific Jul 27 13:48:53 dunno about umts Jul 27 13:49:05 the same for me and cdma :) Jul 27 13:49:19 Do you think I should email Harald Welte? Jul 27 13:49:26 in umts special sim-cards are used, called USIM Jul 27 13:49:30 calamous_: no, look in the bug tracker Jul 27 13:49:32 file a bug, calamous_ Jul 27 13:49:36 Please don't let this man torture me. Jul 27 13:49:37 or look first, really Jul 27 13:49:37 bug is already there Jul 27 13:49:39 but they should be compatible to old GSM SIM Jul 27 13:49:56 thomasg__: thats not 100% true Jul 27 13:50:12 XorA, ok, the CAN be compatible, but the do not have tot be Jul 27 13:50:14 *to Jul 27 13:50:22 thomasg__: yup :-) Jul 27 13:50:30 is this what you mean: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666 Jul 27 13:50:55 well, so or so, sounds weird Jul 27 13:51:38 I have 5 sim cards here, all USIM, hope it will work Jul 27 13:51:41 calamous_: thats the bug I was thinking of Jul 27 13:51:58 ha. bug reporter is clueless Jul 27 13:52:09 wants 3G in a gprs device Jul 27 13:52:19 second comment is about your bug, though Jul 27 13:52:29 I also want 3G in this 2G device :) Jul 27 13:54:25 what's a neo1873 ? Jul 27 13:54:29 I don't know Jul 27 13:54:35 Thats why I posted the second comment Jul 27 13:54:39 koen: never heard of one Jul 27 13:54:40 and 3rd just now Jul 27 13:55:15 guaqua: I imagine one would implementa daemon that sends out notifications (possibly via DBUS) when you enter a location that has been "tagged" (home, etc). Jul 27 13:55:20 koen: back from your trip? Jul 27 13:55:23 NOTE: package openmoko-rssreader-0.0.1+svn20070723-r1: task do_configure: started Jul 27 13:55:29 ERROR: function do_configure failed Jul 27 13:55:31 prpplague: yes Jul 27 13:55:33 hmm Jul 27 13:55:36 koen: lovely Jul 27 13:55:51 koen: you know anyone on the core team working on the sdio wifi stuff? Jul 27 13:55:59 nope Jul 27 13:56:12 prpplague: but ossman is in this channel :) Jul 27 13:56:22 * sagacis wonders if a neo1873 is an open teletype machine Jul 27 14:01:01 dando: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=648 Jul 27 14:04:26 hi Jul 27 14:04:37 prpplague: what were you asking yesterday if I'd be around for? I am, as you probably guessed. Jul 27 14:06:28 SpeedEvil: mainly because you seem to be up on all the goings on for the openmoko/fic teams Jul 27 14:07:01 koen: yea, i've been tinkering with ossmans new sdio stack, but as far as sdio wifi goes, it still has a ways to go Jul 27 14:07:46 SpeedEvil: i'm just trying to find out what direction the openmoko team is going with their sdio interface Jul 27 14:08:07 SpeedEvil: if they are using a third party sdio stack or if they will try to use an open source stack Jul 27 14:08:16 SpeedEvil: as well as some hardware issues Jul 27 14:08:42 SpeedEvil: i.e. it does appear that card to host sdio interrupts don't appear to be working on the s3c2410 Jul 27 14:08:45 prpplague: only as I've been lurking on the ML, and IRC, and wiki, and have understanding of the electronics. Jul 27 14:08:51 i think nbd was working on the sdio stuff Jul 27 14:09:12 prpplague: what I was thinking about on different pinout I've remembered. Jul 27 14:09:25 i'm working on porting the ar6000 driver to pierre ossman's stack Jul 27 14:09:26 SpeedEvil: do tell Jul 27 14:09:30 prpplague: it was in the context of me contemplating driving several cards wired together. Jul 27 14:09:38 nbd: oh good Jul 27 14:09:44 When is it they actually charge the card? When they send it or before they sent the "Payment Received" e-mail ? Jul 27 14:09:49 nbd: you starting with the s3c2410 or 2440? Jul 27 14:09:54 2410 Jul 27 14:10:01 i have a qt2410 board Jul 27 14:10:08 nbd: ahh Jul 27 14:10:08 nbd, you really should shout out about that as I believe others are doing the same thing Jul 27 14:10:22 I think Nicolas Pitre has a board, for example Jul 27 14:10:25 i'm currently stuck with a problem, maybe you guys can help Jul 27 14:10:32 prpplague: there is no disambiguation mechanism for SDIO cards when working as SDIO - you need an extra pin per card. In normal conditions, when all pins are wired back to the SD controller this isn't an issue. Jul 27 14:10:39 nbd: yea, might be nice to start a channel specific to sdio stack issues Jul 27 14:10:44 the card probe works, but as soon as it does any mmc_io_rw_extended calls, the controller locks up Jul 27 14:10:49 it says transaction still in progress Jul 27 14:10:54 but the reset calls don't bring it back to life Jul 27 14:10:58 and the load average goes up to 1.0 Jul 27 14:11:12 it manages to do 1-5 read commands until it locks up Jul 27 14:11:15 prpplague: I was considering a large stack of SD/SDIO cards on a microprocessor, but this can't be done without an enable line to each SDIO card. Jul 27 14:11:32 IMO, only if it's spammy. Jul 27 14:11:48 s/microprocessor/microcontroller/ Jul 27 14:11:55 nbd: yea, i'm seeing similiar problems Jul 27 14:11:56 nbd, it crashes on the first extended io? Jul 27 14:12:19 ossman: sometimes on the first, sometimes on the fifth, but the driver is repeating the same command Jul 27 14:12:41 odd Jul 27 14:13:03 some stuff in the datasheet looks like i have to set some extra flags for the extended commands, but experimenting with that led to no different results Jul 27 14:13:09 datasheet of the controller, i mean Jul 27 14:13:23 nbd: so far many of the irq triggers i'm seeing don't match what i've got unmasked Jul 27 14:16:13 do you guys think i need to check the sdio irq support at this early point? it seems to me as if the extended commands should be able to work without it Jul 27 14:17:28 nbd: right the extended commands should work without the sdio interrupt but like i said, even the other interrupts seemed to not handled like the documentation stated Jul 27 14:17:52 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[QT2410]] [[Main_Page]] [[Freshman_todo]] [[Translation]] [[Neo1973_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Profiles_%28Application%29]] [[Picture_Preview]] [[Neo1973_OpenOCD]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU_on_MacOSX]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] and other changes Jul 27 14:18:17 prpplague: hm. i think i'm currently running the controller in polled mode Jul 27 14:19:09 nbd: ahh right ossmans stack is running polled only right now Jul 27 14:19:22 nbd: i have two other stacks i'm tinkering with as well Jul 27 14:19:37 * prpplague cd's to ossmans tree Jul 27 14:19:52 initially i played with the thought of porting the host controlller driver to that montavista stack Jul 27 14:19:56 but i just couldn't bear that garbage Jul 27 14:20:06 nbd: agreed Jul 27 14:20:27 nbd: put montevitsa down immediately. you don't know where it has been! Jul 27 14:20:43 LetoTo: already did Jul 27 14:20:45 ;) Jul 27 14:20:50 nbd: oh, another note, i've been unable to get the sdi controller to xmit properly in 4-bit mode as well Jul 27 14:20:50 i wonder why Harald hasn't managed to sue them Jul 27 14:21:06 prpplague: hmm.. that could be related to this issue Jul 27 14:21:07 guess it's hard to buy montevista without signing NDA's and spending a million Jul 27 14:21:29 nbd: ahh you are trying to run in 4-bit mode Jul 27 14:21:42 nbd: ? Jul 27 14:22:19 prpplague: i didn't actually change anything in that area. i just merged the stack, made the host controller work with it and then attempted to attach ar6k to it Jul 27 14:22:47 nbd: ahh, iirc ossmans stack doesn't try to use 4-bit mode at this stage yet Jul 27 14:23:10 i wish i had brought the hardware with me Jul 27 14:23:17 now i have to wait for a few days until i can test again Jul 27 14:23:37 nbd: hehe, np Jul 27 14:23:50 nbd: i'll be around next week Jul 27 14:24:19 nbd: i've already gotten most of it working with a hardcoded i/o (not really a stack) Jul 27 14:24:34 nbd: gonna start trying to intergrate it into ossmans stack next week Jul 27 14:24:57 nbd: just wanted to get with the openmoko/fic guess to make sure we don't duplicate work Jul 27 14:25:03 prpplague: most of what specifically? Jul 27 14:25:12 nbd: btw, which ar6k module are you using Jul 27 14:25:22 i pulled it from the sdio-linux project Jul 27 14:25:27 is there a different one? Jul 27 14:25:45 nbd: mainly the cmd53/cmd52 stuff as well as irq handling Jul 27 14:25:57 ah, ok Jul 27 14:26:04 nbd: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/drzeus/mmc.git;a=tree Jul 27 14:27:13 nbd: there is an sdio head Jul 27 14:27:21 prpplague: yeah, that's the one i used Jul 27 14:28:03 nbd: ahh ok Jul 27 14:28:20 although i patched it a bit to expose the mmc_io_rw_extended functions directly. but this is just a hack because i wanted to use something that's closer to what the ar6k host interface part expects Jul 27 14:28:38 are you guys going to be at ccc camp? Jul 27 14:28:48 nbd: hey, i have to run to an engineering meeting Jul 27 14:28:52 nbd: sorry no Jul 27 14:28:55 nbd: bbiab Jul 27 14:29:20 * nbd bbiab as well Jul 27 14:30:53 nbd: there was some talk on LAK about the sdio stack and missing features Jul 27 14:31:15 are there any other sdio stacks that i could use as reference? Jul 27 14:31:24 to add what's missing Jul 27 14:31:35 i mean aside from the mvista garbage Jul 27 14:31:37 Do you have a copy of the standard? Jul 27 14:31:48 yeah, i have a few pdfs on that Jul 27 14:31:59 but reading code is easier for me, even if it's structured differently ;) Jul 27 14:32:38 nbd: atheros is said to have its own stack, or is that the mv crap? Jul 27 14:32:50 the mv crap Jul 27 14:33:05 it comes with the ar6k driver Jul 27 14:33:32 those two seemed to have worked on it together and i can't decide which one writes crappier code Jul 27 14:33:35 ;) Jul 27 14:33:53 all public stacks so far have been rather uneasy on the eyes Jul 27 14:34:03 which is why we started from scratch Jul 27 14:34:07 makes sense Jul 27 14:34:21 i found yours very convenient to read Jul 27 14:34:21 so you're better of reading the public spec than another stack Jul 27 14:34:30 will do Jul 27 14:34:49 SpeedEvil, you can find the spec on sdcard.org Jul 27 14:34:58 it just comes with a "no warranty" disclaimer Jul 27 14:35:45 actually cleaning up ar6k will be a tough job Jul 27 14:35:47 but that's for later Jul 27 14:35:50 i want to get it working first Jul 27 14:36:27 cleaning up isn't always the way to go Jul 27 14:36:35 rewrite is often a better option Jul 27 14:36:51 I suspect there is some softmac in there aswell? Jul 27 14:37:05 nope, it seems to be hardmac Jul 27 14:37:14 couldn't find many references to 802.11 stuff in there Jul 27 14:38:00 yeah the ar6k iirc has quite a firmware (on flash), probably does a lot of the work internally Jul 27 14:38:17 ossman - It hardly depends, wether cleanup or rewrite is a better option. "bit rot" theory/management is a though area. In many cases a cleanup is the better option. Jul 27 14:38:18 firmmac then ;) Jul 27 14:38:44 my guess is that the firmware is probably based on eCos or something like that Jul 27 14:38:54 it'll probably be similar to atheros usb devices Jul 27 14:39:04 which have a mips 4Kc internally Jul 27 14:39:09 or maybe 4KEc Jul 27 14:39:12 i don't remember Jul 27 14:39:33 with the usb devices it runs a similar hal as the one used in madwifi, just on the device instead of on the host Jul 27 14:39:50 Elrond, depends on how far away the code is Jul 27 14:40:06 nbd, *nod* Jul 27 14:40:08 if I remember correctly, the atheros code was a windows driver with some glue Jul 27 14:40:32 yuck. Jul 27 14:40:44 eww indeed Jul 27 14:40:56 might be rewrite-time if that's the case :] Jul 27 14:40:58 But it's FOSS? Jul 27 14:41:02 GPL Jul 27 14:41:12 Well, at least. Jul 27 14:41:19 Elrond, that's the reason we're getting ar6k :) Jul 27 14:41:30 actually the ar6k driver does not look like windows code to me Jul 27 14:41:36 mjr - That was my understanding anyway. Jul 27 14:41:55 nbd, I might be mixing things up. hang on Jul 27 14:42:00 And I was surprised to see windows code as FOSS. Jul 27 14:42:29 ossman: the stack code smells a bit like windows stuff, though Jul 27 14:42:52 but the ar6k driver isn't really tainted by that Jul 27 14:43:10 it has a small host interface part, which attaches to the stack and adds another abstraction layer Jul 27 14:43:18 so the ar6k driver is mostly stack independent Jul 27 14:43:24 nbd, ah, right Jul 27 14:43:26 my bad Jul 27 14:43:31 I got the entire thing in one chunk Jul 27 14:43:36 so I assumed all the code was like that Jul 27 14:44:05 So it could be easily ported to the new linux stack in 2.6.22? Jul 27 14:44:12 Elrond: i'm already working on that Jul 27 14:44:22 nbd - Huh, great :-) Jul 27 14:44:33 nbd - Do you have hardware to test on? Jul 27 14:44:36 yeah Jul 27 14:44:51 Great :-) Jul 27 14:45:02 Is atheros cooperating? Jul 27 14:45:08 we'll see Jul 27 14:45:36 Have you tried to contact them and told them, on what you're working? Jul 27 14:45:43 Elrond: it's being worked on Jul 27 14:45:52 warning at direct.openmoko.com works, properly scared: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=41147 Jul 27 14:45:57 Ahh, good. Jul 27 14:49:55 aloril: haha Jul 27 14:50:25 aloril - Which is good. Jul 27 14:50:39 * aloril nods Jul 27 14:50:57 The article seems very sane. Jul 27 14:51:13 Though slightly inaccurate on the GPS Jul 27 14:51:19 they 'still' sold all out, I see practically only downsides for easily scared people buying it Jul 27 14:51:46 s:'still':as excepted: #was intentional 'typo' ;-) Jul 27 14:52:59 aloril: well, the upside is they may ebay them off and developers may get them cheaper :-) Jul 27 14:53:44 SpeedEvil - GPS: Yeah; I was expecting more exaggerations, that's why I call it "sane". Jul 27 14:54:01 cjb_ie - hehe, yeah. Jul 27 14:54:21 the downside of course is the attendant bad PR Jul 27 14:54:22 cjb_ie: hehe Jul 27 14:54:40 cjb_ie - If they bricked them, $developer needs to know someone with a devel board though. ;) Jul 27 14:55:06 Elrond: well.. I was kind of excepting binary driver being available, maybe it is? (haven't heard yet any report to either direction) Jul 27 14:55:08 how hard is it to brick them without a devel board? Jul 27 14:55:17 Elrond: or it being downloadable Jul 27 14:55:37 aloril - I don't know any source for gllin. :-| Jul 27 14:56:03 cjb_ie - One single line as root can brick it. :-| Jul 27 14:56:11 cjb_ie: new u-boot has some kind of check against flashing wrong version, but you do modify u-boot and flash: high chance in bricking eventually Jul 27 14:56:12 cjb_ie: depends what you do, its easy to brick Jul 27 14:56:20 cjb_ie - (no, it's no "you'll type it by accident", but it exists.) Jul 27 14:56:26 man that inquirer article doesn't seem to understand what developer preview means Jul 27 14:56:33 cjb_ie: flashing kernel, rootfs partitions: won't brick Jul 27 14:58:14 Hello Lord Jul 27 14:58:20 cjb_ie - Bad picture: "If you update your bios on your desktop with a bad one, you're screwed". It's the same with the neo. Except, that the "update bios" functgionality is ready available from within the running OS. Jul 27 14:59:47 I wouldn't flash uboot from linux Jul 27 15:00:58 koen - I wouldn't do it either. It's bound to be errorsome. You can't easily fix up the env-location in the first dector. Jul 27 15:01:35 I wouldn't say 'the "update bios" functgionality is ready available from within the running OS.' Jul 27 15:02:04 It is. But it surely always will be b0rked afterwards. Unless you fixup a few bytes by hand. Jul 27 15:02:12 koen: dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/mtdblock2 count=64k :-) Jul 27 15:02:44 i was trying to flash the u-boot from linux, then i saw what you're all talking about Jul 27 15:03:03 * mokobot mugs Jason1 for his neo and gives it to ScaredyCat Jul 27 15:03:46 mokobot - Can you decrease your "random rant"-rate by 50%? Jul 27 15:03:47 are you saying that i don't need to do that step? Jul 27 15:04:10 Elrond: It isn't random. Jul 27 15:04:14 quinton: if it aint broke, dont fix it when it comes to u-boot Jul 27 15:04:14 quinton - IF you ever intend to update u-boot, do it via DFU. Jul 27 15:04:17 i'm still just following the wiki page Jul 27 15:04:22 Got a problem guys. My neo drained it's battery last night. Dont seem to want to charge now... Jul 27 15:04:25 idea for webkit based browser and using accelerometers: phone is window to page: when you move phone up/down/left/right/any mix it shows different thing in window just like it was transparent window to actual paper page Jul 27 15:05:01 Jason1: plug in, wait an hour or so then turn on, it will come back to life, but on completely drained battery it only charges at 100mA Jul 27 15:05:10 okay, thanks guys Jul 27 15:05:17 Jason1 - Remove batter, insert battery, connect to PC via USB, leave there for 3 hours. Don't touch it for those hours, just let it sit there. Then switch on and let it charge fully. Jul 27 15:05:41 XorA. Good news. I had not waited that long. I plugged it in for like 10 minutes before I left for work and it still wasnt doing anything. Hopefully when I get home, all will be well :) Jul 27 15:05:57 aloril: see [[Category:Accelerometer]] it's in there Jul 27 15:06:08 * Elrond heads home Jul 27 15:06:12 Jason1: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SH1#My_device_doesn.27t_power_up_at_all Jul 27 15:06:49 looks like I need to look at those SH1 Jul 27 15:07:07 aloril: though you can't actually quite do that, as you have no roll information. Jul 27 15:08:08 SpeedEvil: umm? why not, they are 3D accelerometers and I'm talking only about relatively fast changes in movement? Jul 27 15:08:21 The physics. Jul 27 15:08:39 The best in breed hardware has around 60 degree/second noise in roll. Jul 27 15:08:50 With a 10cm axis between the accelerometers. Jul 27 15:09:09 You want 3d accell + 3d gyro Jul 27 15:09:11 The hardware that's been mentioned in the ML has around a 720 degree/second noise. Jul 27 15:09:21 which you can do with most intertial sensors Jul 27 15:09:28 /second/second Jul 27 15:09:36 In roll. Jul 27 15:09:50 SpeedEvil: ah yeah, there are 2 accelerometers only, I was thinking about z-axis ;-) Jul 27 15:09:55 3d gyro are _always_ seperate. Jul 27 15:10:04 No - there are two three axis. Jul 27 15:10:30 See [[Accelerometer Fundamentals]] on the wiki for all the gory details on how the physics works. (though it's quite readable.) Jul 27 15:11:09 SpeedEvil: no, I meant portrait <-> landscape stuff (z-axis) Jul 27 15:11:27 SpeedEvil: ie.. keep it always like it was on table Jul 27 15:11:31 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: whee! Jul 27 15:12:40 You can easily tell which way is down with a fair accuracy. Jul 27 15:12:51 You can do anything with regards to that. Jul 27 15:13:32 But derived measurements - especially with the 7bits per G accelerometers that have been mentioned in the ML are basically very, very limited. Jul 27 15:14:46 well, it should be enough for fast changes, not talking about constant velocity stuff, talking about flick it around on table stuff Jul 27 15:15:12 Sorry - on table? Jul 27 15:17:28 yes, basically like that: just move it around, rotate it to see table size paper content Jul 27 15:17:48 * hrw fixed SH1 page a bit Jul 27 15:18:37 SpeedEvil: looked at [[Wishlist:3D_Viewport]]: seems like this idea was obvious (and one that might have been easily patentable ;-) Jul 27 15:18:59 what kernel is openmoko at? Jul 27 15:20:32 LetoTo: afaik 2.6.22.1 but might be wrong. Jul 27 15:20:44 thanks. Jul 27 15:21:39 Kensan: Um, I though usb network emulation was supposed to work if it was the same version? Jul 27 15:23:06 ewanm89_laptop: I read in here that people (afaik Shorogan) were porting patches to 2.6.22.1 but it might not be done. Jul 27 15:23:21 its done Jul 27 15:23:32 and rtp did it to 2.6.23-rc1(ish) Jul 27 15:24:57 XorA: So if I update what kerenl should I get? Jul 27 15:25:07 s/en/ne/ Jul 27 15:25:09 ewanm89_laptop meant: XorA: So if I update what kernel should I get? Jul 27 15:25:26 ewanm89_laptop: the official one whatver that is Jul 27 15:25:36 openmoko: 03werner * r2538 10/developers/werner/snap/ (. README config.template mksnap): Jul 27 15:25:36 openmoko: Simple snapshot generator, with usage instructions for the Jul 27 15:25:36 openmoko: snapshots. Jul 27 15:27:07 ewanm89_laptop: latest bb-recipe for kernel suggests 2.6.22.1 Jul 27 15:27:44 Kensan: Thanks, won't update host to 23-rc1 just yet then. Jul 27 15:28:17 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 27 15:29:38 Can someone help me SSH into my neo1973? Jul 27 15:30:10 Im a noob with SSH'ing Jul 27 15:30:30 read the wiki Jul 27 15:30:42 the instructions are there Jul 27 15:30:42 ewanm89_laptop, your host and neo kernel can be different versions without problems Jul 27 15:30:52 hehe, i didn't think of that Jul 27 15:31:18 if the u-boot is working properly, should i be getting this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Neo1973_uboot_menu.jpg ? i get a kernel panic Jul 27 15:31:50 it's just that some of the instructions seem to imply that's what i should be seeing Jul 27 15:31:56 quinton: you need to flash a new kernel and rootfs AFAIK Jul 27 15:32:11 quinton: someone said something about phone shipped with a kernel when they shouldnt have been Jul 27 15:32:19 quinton: afaik you only get to see the u-boot menu if you press the AUX-Button on boot-up. Jul 27 15:34:07 hmmm, i cant find the wiki page Jul 27 15:34:21 XorA, do you mean flashing them to the microsd card? Jul 27 15:34:35 quinton: no, I think you need to go read the wiki Jul 27 15:35:03 zaery: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#Getting_shell_access_on_the_phone Jul 27 15:35:10 * aloril wonders if all of SH1 has shipped by now Jul 27 15:35:28 aloril: mine did :) Jul 27 15:35:44 aloril: Look at P1_owners. The numbers seem to work out right - of people charged - for 500 phones. Jul 27 15:35:44 kensan: thanks Jul 27 15:35:47 XorA, i'm trying to follow the 'building openmoko from scratch' page, but i'm a bit stuck because i need to get a serial console Jul 27 15:36:43 quinton: I think you have gone down the wrote tree in the wiki Jul 27 15:36:53 quinton: Im not very familiar with the wiki Jul 27 15:36:58 oO, so this mean the neo that was shipped to me is black Jul 27 15:37:21 raynet: yes, unless you have changed it somehow to orange Jul 27 15:38:01 XorA, okay, i'll follow one of the other guides this time around Jul 27 15:38:05 quinton: have you tried this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko ? Jul 27 15:38:11 It looks like it's reasonable to guess that 1/3 to 1/2 have shipped. - of that first 100. Jul 27 15:38:20 s/100/500/ Jul 27 15:38:20 SpeedEvil meant: It looks like it's reasonable to guess that 1/3 to 1/2 have shipped. - of that first 500. Jul 27 15:38:40 SpeedEvil: well, there is probably delay in updating P1_Owners page ;-) Jul 27 15:38:42 Look at the ratio of CC charges to tracking number received. Jul 27 15:38:46 but... yeah Jul 27 15:39:06 aloril: ok. i can live with black. atleast i might get it by monday Jul 27 15:39:12 It's possible people simply haven't commented on it. Jul 27 15:39:27 ah, must remember to update the wiki Jul 27 15:40:01 raynet: if you wanted orange, you should have mailed ORANGE with your YES_I_DO mail ;-) Jul 27 15:40:24 Kensan, i haven't flashed the u-boot yet. i'm not sure whether i need to or not yet Jul 27 15:40:39 quinton: don't think there is need to flash u-boot Jul 27 15:40:46 aloril: but i wanted it in ASAP color :) Jul 27 15:40:56 raynet: hehe Jul 27 15:41:12 which i did get so w00t! Jul 27 15:41:34 quinton: if you get to the u-boot menu you don't need to. And if you don't have the Debug-Board you probably should not flash u-boot if you don't really need to. Jul 27 15:42:03 i can always give the case for my friend and she can paint dragons on it Jul 27 15:42:22 countr Jul 27 15:42:26 ah, breakthrough, i was trying to push the aux button when the flash screen was up, but i guess you need to hold it down when you are powering it up Jul 27 15:42:30 counter Jul 27 15:42:31 (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in 4 days 08:17:23 (4.345±2.5 days) (1781;252) Jul 27 15:42:43 Hello Lord Jul 27 15:42:56 * empty_mind kicks Sufflope Jul 27 15:42:57 quinton: just follow the instructions on the wiki, they are quite extensive and self-explanatory Jul 27 15:43:14 Kensan, thanks, i'm not going to flash it right now, but maybe some time later, i have the debug board just in case =) Jul 27 15:43:15 oops that was for Sup3rkiddo not Sufflope Jul 27 15:43:28 It's pretty frustrating that they didn't bother telling us that the orange 'phones would ship later *before* we had were asked the colour choices. I mean, it's not like they didn't know what they were shipping to the USA... Jul 27 15:44:09 okay, i'm back on track now, thanks for the advice guys, sorry for being such a noob Jul 27 15:44:45 jgm: no-one would have taken orange then :) Jul 27 15:44:59 rwhihowdy Jul 27 15:45:02 how do i check if my SIM card is working Jul 27 15:45:12 raynet: and this would have been bad how? There are 2000 guys backed up behind me that could have taken them Jul 27 15:45:31 @ all :I get some strange ascii chars pressing the <- del Button on virtual keyboard typing in an terminal. Do you have the same problem? Jul 27 15:45:41 I actually ordered two, one of each, so suspect that when the orange shipment turns up they still won't be able to ship to me as they'll have sent off all the black/silver ones Jul 27 15:45:42 Jul 27 15:46:02 jgm: but i might not get mine so i am glad they did ask for color Jul 27 15:47:30 zaery_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#Inserting_the_SIM_card_.28optional.29 Jul 27 15:47:58 thx kensan Jul 27 15:48:04 I get some strange ascii chars pressing the <- del Button on virtual keyboard typing in an terminal. Do you have the same problem? Jul 27 16:01:13 dando: Yep. The delete key seems to be implemented as , but the cursor movement characters are shown as boxes. The command is edited correctly, it just doesn't render properly. Jul 27 16:02:18 maybe most of international part of SH1 has not yet shipped Jul 27 16:03:19 im missing a lot on the keyboard Jul 27 16:03:41 e.G: Ctrl C Jul 27 16:03:53 Ctrl Z D L ... Jul 27 16:04:00 There are two different keyboards... Jul 27 16:04:29 ok Jul 27 16:04:48 to switch to the full version, select the second option in the menu Jul 27 16:04:55 click to the right of the keyboard rectangle to get the menu. Jul 27 16:05:47 cool Jul 27 16:06:22 grrr, the UI dialer won't work, how do i dial manually? Jul 27 16:06:25 latest number with shipped status in [[P1_Owners]] page is #2409 -> 590 or 85% Jul 27 16:06:39 i like this keyboard Jul 27 16:06:39 that doesn't include orange ones to be shipped later either Jul 27 16:07:14 and I think they shipped only orders where YES_I_DO mail was received Jul 27 16:07:31 dando: Yeah, it's more like your traditional qwerty keyboard. Jul 27 16:07:46 yep Jul 27 16:09:09 latest number is 4504 so maybe 2300-2800 units sold Jul 27 16:09:32 the first keyboard is ok too. For managing contacts .... Jul 27 16:09:35 taking longer than I thought for 3000 units, but getting closer ;-) Jul 27 16:10:15 I really hope they kicked off a batch of 5000 on July 10-12 or so. Jul 27 16:10:50 SpeedEvil: it's more likely that they're doing 1000 unit batches. Jul 27 16:10:59 Indeed. Jul 27 16:11:16 on the other hand they probably lost/are losing many orders because it requires 2 letter code Jul 27 16:11:18 It's just that even if anohter 1000 has been ordered, it looks close to that limit. Jul 27 16:11:49 * aloril remembers seeing recent mention of requiring 2 letter code for USA orders Jul 27 16:12:15 probably should be mentioned at order page (or change script to translate into 2 letter codes) Jul 27 16:13:38 but maybe we should report a bug, because of the bksp. Jul 27 16:13:45 del Jul 27 16:14:59 I've heard the issue mentioned before, but I'm not sure what the deal is. I haven't found it in bugzilla. Jul 27 16:15:35 me neither Jul 27 16:16:26 im still looking maybe it was reported and closed allready. Jul 27 16:17:33 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Wishlist:Distance_tracker]] [[Wifi_power_reduction]] [[WM8976]] [[Variometer]] [[Userspace_root_image]] [[SH1]] [[Unit_Converter]] [[Bootloader]] [[Messages]] [[Test_Openmoko_Emulation_with_chroot_image]] [[Camera]] and other changes Jul 27 16:17:43 SpeedEvil: did you order a p1 phone as well? Jul 27 16:18:17 it arrives! Jul 27 16:18:24 anrp: congrats! Jul 27 16:20:40 ferric: indirectly. Jul 27 16:20:46 group order Jul 27 16:21:25 hmm, the dpi is about the same as the sony ux series Jul 27 16:21:39 higher than the n800 though D: Jul 27 16:22:53 guess i'm going to have to dl the build system now... Jul 27 16:22:57 * anrp delaying on that Jul 27 16:23:44 ships with a broken root image? that's kind of sad.. Jul 27 16:26:16 How do i dial people through the terminal? Jul 27 16:27:30 the wrong way is "printf ATDT;\r" > /dev/ttySAC0 Jul 27 16:27:37 lol Jul 27 16:27:40 er, be sure to quote the arg Jul 27 16:28:23 man, i got 3 mobile devices in 2 days ~_~ too much Jul 27 16:28:31 ttySAC0 isnt that GPS? Jul 27 16:28:33 woah Jul 27 16:28:49 mm maybe, i'm not sure Jul 27 16:28:52 could be sac1 Jul 27 16:29:07 * anrp wanders to work Jul 27 16:29:33 ;) Jul 27 16:30:47 ok, lame Jul 27 16:31:15 my second day air shipment is not going to get here until next week Jul 27 16:31:32 it's going to take a full 6 days Jul 27 16:32:03 i wish i knew about the next production run(s) Jul 27 16:32:30 id feel better about ordering if i knew there was a phone to buy Jul 27 16:33:38 * Kero leaves for the USA 11, would be nice to have held the Neo in my hands before that :) Jul 27 16:33:43 *Aug 11 Jul 27 16:33:58 http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?Requester=UPSHome&loc=en_US&HTMLVersion=5.0&tracknum=1Z5VX0380251715251 this is bogus Jul 27 16:35:01 mm, tracking number daMaestro ... Jul 27 16:35:16 kero maybe you should get it shipped to somewhere in the us to save shipping? Jul 27 16:35:27 anrp: already paid :) Jul 27 16:35:41 o Jul 27 16:36:03 anyone know the *right* way to dial a number Jul 27 16:36:07 but not shipped, yet. if it takes UPS a week, FIC better hurry :) Jul 27 16:36:39 zaery_: I had to use `chat` on my iPAQ (to talk over Irda with my GSM to dial in...) Jul 27 16:37:14 im using a Neo1973 Jul 27 16:37:16 specifically, there's some termios settings that the /dev/ttyxxx needed Jul 27 16:37:28 openmoko: 03chris * r2539 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2008/libraries/libmokoui/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-finger-scroll.c): Jul 27 16:37:28 openmoko: Synthesise more events so that buttons and other like widgets work. Jul 27 16:37:28 openmoko: Also fix a possible infinite loop. Jul 27 16:37:55 yup, but if it's an AT command set, why wouldn;t the tty behave the same? Jul 27 16:38:19 sry, im a noob, i have no clue Jul 27 16:38:38 i dont even know how to use the AT commands Jul 27 16:39:21 nbd: the main item missing in all the open source sdio stuff is the implementation of the cmd53 Jul 27 16:39:30 nbd: or atleast from what i can tell Jul 27 16:39:43 nbd: and there really aren't any good examples on the implementation Jul 27 16:40:07 dOES THE short-form standard not cover it? Jul 27 16:40:33 zaery_: but you have a Neo, no? :) Jul 27 16:40:39 yes, i do Jul 27 16:41:05 well, you give me your Neo and I'll explain how it works :P Jul 27 16:41:05 prpplague: doesn't mmc_io_rw_extended do that? or what parts are missing there? Jul 27 16:41:27 just teasing. I'm leaving shortly, or I could have tried to help you Jul 27 16:41:28 ~p1 Jul 27 16:41:32 lol Jul 27 16:41:44 ~P1 Jul 27 16:41:51 sigh Jul 27 16:41:57 openmoko-rssreader says it doesn't find WebKit/Gtk, where can i download it? i'm using mokomakefile Jul 27 16:42:25 morricone : same problem Jul 27 16:42:33 well, i have to go too, ill see everyone later Jul 27 16:42:35 @ all Jul 27 16:43:18 nbd: i've got too look at that section of code Jul 27 16:43:21 Who wants (spam) "You've received a greeting card from a Worshipper!" when you really want to see "[rt 18xx Shipped]" *snif* Jul 27 16:43:28 prpplague: it's what i used in my ar6k port Jul 27 16:49:11 BitBake files: (4361/4361) [100 %] Jul 27 16:49:36 Parsing finishes. 4179 caches 0 parsed 182 skipped 0 masked Jul 27 16:51:14 i dont know bitbake. Jul 27 16:52:37 dando, what error do you get? can you post the log to pastebin.ca? Jul 27 16:54:46 ok Jul 27 16:58:02 http://www.pastebin.ca/636110 Jul 27 17:01:24 WebKitGdk is missing Jul 27 17:01:37 gtk Jul 27 17:01:46 dando: it's in bugzilla: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=648 Jul 27 17:02:17 Kensan: thanks for helping Jul 27 17:03:42 dando: you need to use svn revision 2389. Jul 27 17:04:28 kensan: yes, i saw on bugzilla Jul 27 17:04:59 i will try that Jul 27 17:05:01 dando: as the autobuilder works fine, what about updating your checkout? Jul 27 17:07:01 zecke: is the bug fixed in head then? Jul 27 17:08:10 Kensan: afaik stefan_schmidt changed the to be used svn rev Jul 27 17:11:01 zecke: i see. Just read the bugzilla entry again ;) Jul 27 17:11:29 hi Jul 27 17:11:39 HUH??? my openmoko charge is gone Jul 27 17:11:52 I read online that the openmoko phone with wifi will cost $450? Jul 27 17:12:04 that's what the wiki says. Jul 27 17:12:19 as opposed to the $350 they talked about earlier on? Jul 27 17:12:52 that's for phase1 Jul 27 17:13:05 the rationale for this was already discussed on the mailing list Jul 27 17:13:24 link? Jul 27 17:13:38 or never mind, was just checking Jul 27 17:13:44 short version: make the dev kit cheap so lots of people can get in on the act early, then there are no issues wrt. upgrade discounts Jul 27 17:13:45 $450 is still more then reasonable Jul 27 17:27:42 lo all Jul 27 17:28:16 hmm, anyone awake? Jul 27 17:28:17 inksmithy: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 27 17:28:40 hehe Jul 27 17:28:59 heh yeah it got me Jul 27 17:29:07 ok i see what happened - the phone rep said that they put the money on hold for 3-4 days and it gets "credited" back if the money isn't claimed but that can be done later Jul 27 17:30:03 inksmithy: unlikely to have answer to that question, but maybe there is answer to question you had in mind ;-) Jul 27 17:30:22 There is actually, which you may be able to help with Jul 27 17:31:03 I've done a fair bit of fiddling with the gp2x and I'm wondering whether there is anything stopping gp2x apps working on the openmoko? Jul 27 17:32:20 reason I ask is because one of the guys who writes for the gp2x has managed to get stuff like abiword and so on working on it. I can't see any reason why a recompile of his source would get that working on the Neo Jul 27 17:33:12 Neo apps are basically simply X Jul 27 17:33:18 X+GTK Jul 27 17:33:25 +fluxbox as a WM. Jul 27 17:33:28 or X + fw Jul 27 17:33:33 SpeedEvil: fluxbox? Jul 27 17:33:37 err Jul 27 17:33:44 * SpeedEvil may have misremembered. Jul 27 17:33:47 s/fw/efl/ Jul 27 17:33:51 How can you even use Abiwordon GP2X? Jul 27 17:33:59 thats what I though, cos this guy actually has x running on the gp2x as well, with mouse support and so on Jul 27 17:34:06 SpeedEvil: opened-hand is doing the software, so I don't think it's fluxbox Jul 27 17:34:25 on screen keyboard, or use a powered USB hum Jul 27 17:34:31 *hub Jul 27 17:34:42 I have a powered USB hub and GP2X Jul 27 17:34:45 I should try it sometime Jul 27 17:34:46 :-P Jul 27 17:34:50 I've found a supplier of those things and I reckon they would be a natural for the Neo Jul 27 17:35:32 battery powered USB hub I mean Jul 27 17:35:34 But the powered hub doesn't know when its connected to the host I think unless you wire it up specially Jul 27 17:36:23 I'll have to pull mine out and figure out how they did it Jul 27 17:36:54 but surely if the host is on and there is power flowing both ways the info would flow as well Jul 27 17:36:56 ? Jul 27 17:38:55 to create a new application, build it openmoko and to test it with qemu, should i follow these instructions: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Developing_with_MokoMakefile ? Jul 27 17:41:36 SpeedEvil: It's Matchbox. Jul 27 17:46:48 * SpeedEvil gets his boxes mixed up. Jul 27 17:53:41 hola :) i seem to experience neo shutting down in uboot if i dont keep pressing alt (like it says on the wiki, etc).. curious if alt still needs to pressed occasionally during the flashing process.. Jul 27 17:54:23 err ^alt^aux Jul 27 17:54:27 what is the fastest way to develop, build applications and test it with qemu? Jul 27 17:54:28 any kernel progress? Jul 27 17:55:10 do these instructions still hold good? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#Developing_with_MokoMakefile ? Jul 27 18:02:05 mbuf: I think so but why would you want to test them in qemu? Jul 27 18:03:00 abraxa_, because i don't have the phone in hand, yet Jul 27 18:03:37 abraxa_, i can simply write a standalone GTK+, compile it openmoko environment, but, its display and buttons don't match similar to the qemu environment Jul 27 18:03:51 use Xoo Jul 27 18:04:27 mbuf: Did you make use of the theme's gtkrc? Jul 27 18:04:32 koen, i see Jul 27 18:05:33 abraxa_, i just did ./autogen.sh, make and then ran the executable as it is; just been doing that; but, just wanted to know what the developers were doing for rapid application development for openmoko Jul 27 18:07:09 folks -- anyone know how to enable the sound on the moko? Jul 27 18:07:25 mbuf: I personally do the same (running on local X), just I also made a special user who I run the apps under - it has the OpenMoko theme's gtkrc referenced and thus gives me the same look'n'feel as on the device itself Jul 27 18:07:50 got a P1 phone yesterday, all flashed up Jul 27 18:07:52 no sound working Jul 27 18:08:10 ds3: I think you need to load an ALSA profile first Jul 27 18:08:24 abraxa_, yes, it runs faster that way; how do you reference the OpenMoko theme gtkrc? Jul 27 18:08:56 http://lists.ximian.com/pipermail/mono-devel-list/2007-July/024072.html Jul 27 18:09:56 mbuf: Create a file named .gtkrc-2.0 in the user's home directory and put this line in there: include "/home/someuser/somepath/openmoko/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkrc" Jul 27 18:10:37 abraxa_, just looked at that in the Xoo documentation, thanks Jul 27 18:10:46 mbuf: Good :) Jul 27 18:10:54 At least it's on the wiki then as well Jul 27 18:12:27 nbd: sorry for the delay, too many meetings today Jul 27 18:12:45 nbd: let me have a quick look at the mmc_io_rw_extended code Jul 27 18:12:47 prpplague, long time :) Jul 27 18:12:55 mbuf: hey Jul 27 18:13:17 mbuf: where you at these days? Jul 27 18:13:21 abraxa: thx I'll give it a shot Jul 27 18:13:29 prpplague, traveling a bit in EU Jul 27 18:14:00 mbuf: lovely Jul 27 18:14:07 mbuf: still doing dev work then? Jul 27 18:14:11 prpplague, moved here, probably be here for long; i knew you would be involved in this project somehow Jul 27 18:14:29 prpplague, yes, of course Jul 27 18:14:38 mbuf: actually no, i'm working on another project, but similiar hardware Jul 27 18:15:10 prpplague, they are all the same hardware; good to see you around Jul 27 18:17:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Speedevil]] [[P1_Owners]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[User:Fthiery]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Paris]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] Jul 27 18:17:47 abraxa_, works! thanks! this way i can use the processing speed on x86 to quickly develop applications, rather than having to run it on any simulator Jul 27 18:18:30 STR=`AT+CNUM' Jul 27 18:18:30 RSTR=`+CME ERROR: 10' Jul 27 18:18:33 not good I guess Jul 27 18:18:58 mbuf: Glad to help :) Jul 27 18:20:12 noidd, which operator? where? Jul 27 18:21:11 Cingular Jul 27 18:21:17 SIM is 3 years old Jul 27 18:22:31 but looks like it is 3G Jul 27 18:22:35 from a Treo 650 Jul 27 18:23:27 ok Jul 27 18:24:14 noidd, can you create a page in the wiki with a table of AT commands, operator and location, so we can get an idea Jul 27 18:24:33 noidd, information will be flowing in fast in the next few days, so it is important to track them Jul 27 18:25:21 * noidd nods Jul 27 18:25:55 Just verify I didn't do anything stupid Jul 27 18:26:01 I did the following: Jul 27 18:26:11 gsmd -p /dev/ttySAC0 -s 115200 -F # Wasn't running already Jul 27 18:26:18 libgsmd-tool -m atcmd Jul 27 18:26:22 then Jul 27 18:26:24 AT+CNUM Jul 27 18:34:35 are there any videos of Sean speaking? Jul 27 18:36:13 i think so Jul 27 18:36:18 there was one at fossdem on google video Jul 27 18:36:22 youtube seems only to have ads ... good ones but :-) Jul 27 18:36:30 ok cool Jul 27 18:40:54 found it Jul 27 18:43:22 behdad from toronto :-) Jul 27 18:45:03 behdad, heard of http://panl10n.net/ :-) Jul 27 18:45:47 * behdad checks Jul 27 18:46:05 nbd: yea the io_rw_extended command(cmd53) is what you'd need to do the multiple block transfers Jul 27 18:46:26 webar7: heard before. never checked it though Jul 27 18:46:41 nbd: normally after sending the cmd53 with data, you should get an irq back from sdio card Jul 27 18:46:55 looks nice, but I can't get what it really is :) Jul 27 18:46:55 prpplague: what hardware did you experiment with? Jul 27 18:47:07 supported by cdn gov't Jul 27 18:47:13 that's why :) Jul 27 18:47:17 nbd: but from what i can tell, the sdi controller on the s3c2410 isn't detecting the irq Jul 27 18:47:30 it's a research network on localization and font tech Jul 27 18:47:49 nbd: basically the same device as this http://www.elinux.org/M5900 Jul 27 18:48:10 the leader of the project Sarmad Hussein Jul 27 18:48:15 is wicked smart Jul 27 18:48:23 nbd: along with a marvell 88w8385 sdio module Jul 27 18:48:25 Hussain Jul 27 18:48:37 anyway given your expertise :) Jul 27 18:48:40 nbd: i have a atheros module from cardaccess but i've not started testing with it yet Jul 27 18:48:40 prpplague: interesting Jul 27 18:48:57 how far did you get? what works and what doesn't? Jul 27 18:49:20 ... maybe they could localize the neo interface Jul 27 18:49:30 nbd: for my sdio wifi card everything is working except the detection of the sdio interrupt from the card to the host Jul 27 18:49:46 nbd: right now i'm just using a timmer to kick of a polling of the line Jul 27 18:50:40 ah, interesting Jul 27 18:51:10 i'll throw my current (rather hackish) patches and the ar6k tree into the openmoko svn Jul 27 18:51:24 maybe you can give it a try and see if the controller locks up just like on my board Jul 27 18:51:29 nbd: ok great Jul 27 18:51:40 nbd: let me know when its available Jul 27 18:51:42 (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: OM-2008 Jul 27 18:51:57 prpplague: will do Jul 27 18:55:19 openmoko: 03nbd * r2540 10/developers/nbd/ (111 files in 11 dirs): add my WiP ar6k tree and kernel patches Jul 27 18:55:21 nbd: do you have the schematics for the qt2410 ? Jul 27 18:55:32 prpplague: haven't checked yet Jul 27 18:56:18 nbd: i'm curious if the qt2410 has 10k pullups on the sdio lines per the sdio spec Jul 27 18:56:38 nbd: i've seen several different designs for the s3c2410, some with , some without Jul 27 18:56:56 prpplague: i'll look for the schematics Jul 27 19:04:33 nbd: got another meeting, bbiaf Jul 27 19:06:04 any news on the 3g at&t card problem? Jul 27 19:08:39 yes Jul 27 19:09:26 prpplague: according to the schematics, there are pullups on all the lines Jul 27 19:16:25 Just got my two neo's - eat your hearts out :) Jul 27 19:16:32 :/ Jul 27 19:17:58 * ferric eats Jul 27 19:17:59 hey, heres one..does the open moko kernel/neo support gsm multiplexing? Jul 27 19:18:13 what is gsm multiplexing? Jul 27 19:18:40 being in a phone call and able to Tx/Rx data over like...edge Jul 27 19:18:45 ah Jul 27 19:19:54 i hate irc dropping because i am in a call for 2 min with my current phone :) Jul 27 19:21:02 my cross compiler will be ready in no time ! Jul 27 19:21:09 lets say 5 -6 hours Jul 27 19:21:13 ;) Jul 27 19:21:13 roh: ping Jul 27 19:21:30 just found it .. OpenMoko will also include a kernel patch that adds GSM multiplexing capabilities to the 2.6 kernel. Jul 27 19:21:33 pong Jul 27 19:24:25 ColdFyre: sweet. Jul 27 19:33:19 ColdFyre: is it just that most modems support it, but the software to do so is rather complex? Jul 27 19:33:46 So isn't implemented in many phones. Jul 27 19:35:03 why would you buy two neos??? Jul 27 19:35:24 Because you can't afford a dozen? Jul 27 19:35:25 endurance testing? ;) Jul 27 19:35:47 to me phones are much like laptops, more than one is useless Jul 27 19:35:53 nope Jul 27 19:36:05 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 27 19:36:28 anyone know where i can buy a 2g sim card in the US? Jul 27 19:36:52 A stupid question! What exactly is a toolchain and what komponents belong to it? Jul 27 19:36:56 tmobile and att prepay plans, sunkist Jul 27 19:37:05 so before I couldn't buy a phone for work if it had wifi Jul 27 19:37:17 now I want to buy a Neo and people complain Jul 27 19:37:21 it doesn't have wifi Jul 27 19:37:23 jeez Jul 27 19:37:56 buz: imagine that you've just one piece and you find some strange problem, you can check on seconds one if it behave the same or so Jul 27 19:38:27 of course, you can ask other owners, but I prefer to check it myself Jul 27 19:38:59 For development purposes, it makes sense. But for daily use... I don't think so. Jul 27 19:39:00 and you can have for dev purposes and one for daily use Jul 27 19:39:17 2 solely for daily use, I mean. Jul 27 19:39:35 sure, i'm talking about dev purposes also Jul 27 19:39:53 oh yeah, i guess 1 running dev stuff and 1 for general use makes sense Jul 27 19:40:08 SpeedEvil - Current theory: integration (correlation) happens in digital space. ;o) Jul 27 19:40:11 i guess there is no better phone for dev purposes Jul 27 19:40:35 Depends on the kind of development you do, I guess :D Jul 27 19:41:43 development for a mobile device Jul 27 19:42:56 Well, it doesn't make much sense for J2ME developing, for instance. Jul 27 19:43:15 thats right Jul 27 19:43:58 or is it ? I dont know if J2ME is running Jul 27 19:44:09 Not yet, I think. Jul 27 19:44:41 i guess it will be Jul 27 19:44:46 And even if it did, the Neo isn't a very representative device if you want to push your J2ME apps into mainstream. Jul 27 19:44:51 depends on sun Jul 27 19:45:30 touchscreen, vga screen really isnt very representative Jul 27 19:45:40 something like a nokia n70 or so would be better suited Jul 27 19:45:42 or even lower end Jul 27 19:45:54 :) Jul 27 19:49:44 nbd: ok thanks Jul 27 19:49:56 nbd: thats consistant with the smdk design Jul 27 19:50:17 nbd: but from what i gather, those are mainly needed when using removable sd/sdio cards Jul 27 19:50:42 nbd: with a hardwired device, i.e. wifi module, the internal pullups on the SoC are enough Jul 27 19:50:48 But isn't J2ME compiled for arm architecture? Jul 27 19:51:02 it should run Jul 27 19:51:07 nbd: looking over your patches now Jul 27 19:51:49 one day, all mobile devices will be as open as the neo :-) Jul 27 19:52:14 i hope so Jul 27 19:55:41 they could do the same thing with gpu's, so we dont need nvidia or ati any more. Jul 27 19:57:16 a plain opengl gpu Jul 27 19:57:33 Hello, in qemu-emulator, when calibration starts, I cannot click on the crosshairs, and therefore do not get further. Why? Jul 27 19:58:16 I dont like blob drivers Jul 27 19:58:36 This are the command line parameters: arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko/openmoko-flash.image -kernel openmoko/openmoko-kernel.bin -usb -show-cursor Jul 27 19:58:49 nbd: ping Jul 27 19:58:51 did you start with -show-cursor? Jul 27 19:58:53 prpplague: pong Jul 27 19:58:59 dando: yes Jul 27 19:59:17 Do I need to recompile? Jul 27 19:59:23 nbd: i'm looking at the patches now Jul 27 19:59:26 ok Jul 27 19:59:32 nbd: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/nbd/patches-2.6.22/800-sdio_merge.patch Jul 27 19:59:43 nbd: the section for the mmc_io_rw_write Jul 27 19:59:43 maybe it is just a little slow! Jul 27 19:59:51 iirc this is pierre's stack without further modification Jul 27 19:59:56 try -m 512 instead 130 Jul 27 20:00:06 dando: ok Jul 27 20:00:08 nbd: ahh ok Jul 27 20:00:16 nbd: there is something that looks odd to me Jul 27 20:00:20 prpplague: i change a few things in a later patch Jul 27 20:00:37 but run ./openmoko/flash.sh first Jul 27 20:01:14 nbd: ok, i'll continue to look then Jul 27 20:01:21 LarstiQ: wat Jul 27 20:01:23 oops Jul 27 20:01:29 prpplague: what looks odd? Jul 27 20:02:49 dando: Yes, thanks. But I think I download the latest version and recompile. I copied it from an older installation of my OS. Perhaps there are newer libraries or something dependand missing. But it goes till the crosshairs. Jul 27 20:02:50 nbd: + data.blksz = size; Jul 27 20:02:50 + data.blocks = 1; Jul 27 20:03:23 nbd: thats only valid in stream mode, not in block mode Jul 27 20:03:27 ok Jul 27 20:03:32 prpplague: hm Jul 27 20:03:51 prpplague: but in my case it probably wasn't the reason. since the read ops that the driver did were 1 byte Jul 27 20:04:21 nbd: agreed, i was just point out that its something that is incorrect Jul 27 20:04:28 ok Jul 27 20:04:54 nbd: the read you are doing is only 1 byte? Jul 27 20:04:59 ye Jul 27 20:05:00 yes Jul 27 20:05:56 nbd: its hanging on the mmc_io_rw_extended command? Jul 27 20:06:45 nbd: so your block size is 1 and the block count is 1? Jul 27 20:07:20 nbd: sorry, just trying to get a clear picture of the layout of the issue Jul 27 20:07:59 prpplague: yeah Jul 27 20:08:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R70V1Yz-dZ4 Jul 27 20:09:28 nbd: ok, so i have to ask, why are you using io_rw_extended for 1 block, when io_rw_direct would be better suited? Jul 27 20:17:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/jp]] [[Clock]] [[Main_Page]] [[Calendar]] [[Bug_Report]] [[Booting_from_SD]] [[Bluetooth_Support]] [[Anti-Theft_Mode]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Template:Languages]] [[OpenMoko_Local_groups:_Boston]] [[Wishlist:Tracking_lost_phone]] and other changes Jul 27 20:18:48 * hozer whines Jul 27 20:19:22 the last known credit card changed ticket number was 2464, and his is 2971 Jul 27 20:19:55 hozer, it's ok... i've been billed, the phone shipped... but someone fucked up Jul 27 20:20:00 http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?Requester=UPSHome&loc=en_US&HTMLVersion=5.0&tracknum=1Z5VX0380251715251 Jul 27 20:21:09 hm Jul 27 20:21:35 I have ticket number 1848, got a payment received mail, but then nothing Jul 27 20:21:40 * sannes sobs Jul 27 20:22:02 yeah, i'm 1964 Jul 27 20:25:37 * hozer drives down to Des Moines to intercept daMaestro's neo ;) Jul 27 20:26:04 that sucks a LOT Jul 27 20:26:57 it makes no sense. I selected air, 2nd day (ups even says that.) .... how hard is it to get to Colorado from CA Jul 27 20:27:09 * daMaestro 's brain hurts Jul 27 20:27:26 my neo is already in germany Jul 27 20:27:40 and we have choosen 'saver' Jul 27 20:27:49 (group order) Jul 27 20:27:55 anyone got their neos yet? Jul 27 20:28:05 yes Jul 27 20:28:11 cool Jul 27 20:29:02 i wonder if we get to see any stress tests on youtube with the neo Jul 27 20:29:25 what do you mean by stress tests? Jul 27 20:30:41 like they did with the iphone..droping it on the floor, scrach the display up to look if it holdes togheter Jul 27 20:31:16 * marsan have a bad english language.. Jul 27 20:32:51 mine's waiting at home Jul 27 20:33:04 ah, don't know if anybody want to drop a neo for which he/she had to wait a month or so... Jul 27 20:34:22 There need to be tests on some P0 hardware on that. Jul 27 20:34:27 drop-tests. Jul 27 20:34:35 Systematic ones. Jul 27 20:34:41 all we need to know is.... will it blend? Jul 27 20:35:02 probably Jul 27 20:35:03 :P Jul 27 20:35:14 these are usualy done by producer, not by end-users :p Jul 27 20:35:15 Isnt blender mobile edition pretty old now? Jul 27 20:35:18 don-o: You heretic! :) Jul 27 20:35:21 lol Jul 27 20:35:32 * mmp can't wait 'till his P1 will come:) Jul 27 20:35:34 someone could send them a gta01[b]v<=3 Jul 27 20:35:44 * SpeedEvil passes mmp a blender. Jul 27 20:36:01 * mmp starts blender Jul 27 20:36:05 * SpeedEvil ponders. Jul 27 20:36:10 but still, the question is... Jul 27 20:36:12 Iphone trade-in program. Jul 27 20:36:18 Send in a blended iphone, get a neo. Jul 27 20:36:19 "What is mahna-mahna"... Jul 27 20:36:27 err, "will it blend?" Jul 27 20:36:29 :) Jul 27 20:37:13 mmp - the first sketch of the first season of the muppet show? Jul 27 20:37:20 miguelanxo: do you have a UPS? Jul 27 20:37:23 oops Jul 27 20:37:47 happycube: yes:) (but I guess it was in last few seconds) Jul 27 20:40:00 :) Jul 27 20:42:37 nbd: are you sure you were getting the blocksize set to 1 ? Jul 27 20:43:42 Come in #1841 your time is up Jul 27 20:43:49 *sigh* Jul 27 20:49:49 prpplague: yes Jul 27 20:50:02 prpplague: i added a printk to the function in question to verify that Jul 27 20:52:46 nbd: that seems very odd Jul 27 20:53:16 nbd: normally i'd expect a 1 block 1 byte read/write to be execute by a cmd52(io_rw_direct) Jul 27 20:55:23 prpplague: the driver does all of its transfers using io_rw_extended Jul 27 20:57:31 nbd: that definetly sounds odd to me Jul 27 21:00:34 would openmoko be capable of running on an ipaq? Jul 27 21:01:17 bmk789: what do you think? Jul 27 21:01:21 bmk, sure why not, but you'll have to deal with drivers on your own Jul 27 21:02:44 isnt it being made to run on many different devices eventually? Jul 27 21:03:00 The software is really quite portable. Jul 27 21:04:03 i figured since its ARM architecture i could flash the image on the ipaq then deal with hardware support and such Jul 27 21:04:22 there's more than one ARM architecture. Jul 27 21:04:44 bmk789: *yawn* http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-running-on-an-ipaq Jul 27 21:04:58 arm3, arm4, arm4t, ... arm9; add big and little endian versions of each Jul 27 21:05:53 thanks Jul 27 21:07:36 nbd: i'll have to patch up my build and give it a test, but something doesn't look correct there Jul 27 21:07:48 prpplague: ok Jul 27 21:08:27 SpeedEvil - I think, I have the "integration time". I have no idea on its unit yet. I start to think, I'll do some measuremtn on that. ;-) Jul 27 21:12:05 is the microSD card simply for more memory, or is there a deeper meaning? Jul 27 21:13:05 i can see that it's possible to boot from it, but other than that, is there anything special about it? Jul 27 21:13:23 Elrond: :) Jul 27 21:13:30 deeper meaning! haha Jul 27 21:13:44 quinton: more storage. Jul 27 21:14:34 SpeedEvil, thanks, for some reason i was surprised that i could boot fine without it Jul 27 21:14:52 quinton: Ideally the final software will not require the SD. Jul 27 21:14:59 Otherwise the user changing it gets hard. Jul 27 21:16:24 any UNIX admin people in the bay area want a job? :-) Jul 27 21:17:19 lol Jul 27 21:19:06 Elrond: You'll come tomorrow, right? ;D Jul 27 21:22:55 Anyone heard any news on the AT&T 3G sim cards Jul 27 21:24:55 yes, more people ask the same question Jul 27 21:26:29 abraxa_ - Yes, I'm highly planning to. I hope mickey and you come too? Jul 27 21:27:02 Elrond: Mickey is and I am, too, yes Jul 27 21:27:38 Elrond: If you don't come I'll be forced to nag at you for several days on IRC to make you repent your sin Jul 27 21:29:12 abraxa_ - Heh, where's the problem, if I wouldn't come? Jul 27 21:29:38 Elrond: I want to meet you cause I'm curious ;) Jul 27 21:30:44 abraxa_ - hehe. I'm trying to be pretty normal. ;o) Jul 27 21:30:54 calamous1_: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666 looks like there is a bug report now.. Jul 27 21:31:48 rushforth: yeah, someone beat me to the post but the 2 comments there are mine Jul 27 21:32:07 I think this bug is very important and it should be looked at Jul 27 21:33:09 indeed, although I figure I will pick up a cheap t-mo prepaid card for 15 bucks.. seems like it would be handy to have dual phones atm anyways.. Jul 27 21:34:13 * rushforth crosses fingers and hopes that its a software and not hardware issue :) Jul 27 21:34:48 calamous1_: I show the same symptoms here with a Cingular 3G sim card which is a 64k data card but 3G Jul 27 21:35:24 noidd: so you are working with the old "smart chip" but not the "3g fireball" Jul 27 21:35:28 ? Jul 27 21:35:28 calamous1_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 27 21:35:54 calamous1_: the SIM is about 3 years old and oackaged with Treo 650 Jul 27 21:36:04 but the old one works right? Jul 27 21:36:06 there is no fireball on it Jul 27 21:36:09 and the new one dosent work? Jul 27 21:36:22 I can't get this one to work either. error 10 Jul 27 21:36:32 STR=`AT+CNUM' Jul 27 21:36:38 RSTR=`+CME ERROR: 10' Jul 27 21:36:46 noidd: if you are getting error 10 each time maybe your sim reader is messed up Jul 27 21:36:54 ive gotten both CME ERROR 13, and 10 Jul 27 21:36:57 Are you sure your card is firmly inserted? Jul 27 21:37:03 its locked down Jul 27 21:37:12 I can try again (once the phone is re-charged) Jul 27 21:37:20 rushforth: did you get the error 13 and 10 on the same card or different ones? Jul 27 21:38:12 calamous1_: same card. it seem that every other time I boot the neo, gsmd comes up ok, and that I have signal. However, anytime i do AT+CFUN, or AT+CIMI, or AT+CREG, I get error 13 Jul 27 21:38:26 calamous1_: then every other time I boot it up, gsmd fails, and i get error 10 Jul 27 21:38:34 booting Jul 27 21:38:46 seems totally random. Jul 27 21:38:59 Hmm. I wonder if there is some AT cmd to make the modem use the right card Jul 27 21:39:04 the card the right way* Jul 27 21:39:07 and, fwiw, CME ERROR 13 means 'sim failure' I suppose Jul 27 21:39:11 Prehaps it needs to be initalized correctly Jul 27 21:39:34 calamous1_, are you still using the same SIM and the same neo? Jul 27 21:39:36 calamous1_: did you perfrom any other commands before the AT+CNUM? Jul 27 21:39:47 * daMaestro really hopes it is an isolated hardware defect Jul 27 21:39:57 Noidd: I turn on echo first Jul 27 21:40:10 So I can see whatI'm trying Jul 27 21:40:28 * calamous1_ hopes it can be fixed with a software patch Jul 27 21:40:33 * rushforth nods Jul 27 21:41:26 If this board cant use the AT&T card I would say that there is a serious flaw that FIC overlooked Jul 27 21:41:48 so I don't need to activate the antennea or anythinglike that Jul 27 21:42:33 noidd and calamous1_, do you either have the reception bars in the upper right? Jul 27 21:42:48 I did a few days ago Jul 27 21:42:53 not today Jul 27 21:43:02 maybe loose connection Jul 27 21:43:04 reseating Jul 27 21:43:08 when I get the reception bars is when I get error 13, when I dont get reception bars (gsmd fails), i get error 10 Jul 27 21:43:48 rushforth: sometimes. It seems to be intermentant Jul 27 21:44:11 I wish herald or sean were here lol Jul 27 21:44:35 +CME ERROR: 10 Jul 27 21:45:15 I have faith that i'm doing something stupid ;-) Jul 27 21:45:30 calamous1_: is there something special about the AT&T SIM card? Jul 27 21:45:31 noidd: me too :) I just want to know what Jul 27 21:45:59 I wonder if there are docs on the wiki for these AT commands and how to activate the antenna, register network etc Jul 27 21:46:04 don-o: I don't think so (although I would not put any "underhanded" moves past at&t) but they want their procuct to be campat in lots of phones Jul 27 21:46:13 Yes there are Jul 27 21:46:20 +CREG is register Jul 27 21:46:25 this is a singular sim Jul 27 21:46:32 you will get CME err 32 back prob Jul 27 21:46:37 nope Jul 27 21:46:41 I get an OK Jul 27 21:46:48 calamous1_: also i would think the SIM slot would be part of the GSM module and up to that manufacturer to do compatibility testing Jul 27 21:47:00 noidd: really? do ATD7732812244 and call me Jul 27 21:47:17 NO CARRIER Jul 27 21:47:22 don-o: you are right the cylapso comunicates with it Jul 27 21:47:34 noidd are you using the cu utililty? Jul 27 21:47:43 Turn on extended error reporting if you are Jul 27 21:47:48 libgsmd-tool -m atcmd Jul 27 21:47:50 abraxa_ - It is 15:00 tomorrow, right? Jul 27 21:48:23 noidd: AT+CMEE=2 is verbose error Jul 27 21:48:47 +CME ERROR: SIM not inserted Jul 27 21:49:25 dando: afaik it does run. but without integration into the UI layer, it's gonna look butt ugly Jul 27 21:49:36 yet CREG works Jul 27 21:49:40 dando: there's also the problem with various JSRs for J2ME Jul 27 21:50:00 dando: only the core stuff is open source (as Sun owns it), the rest typically are owned by other companies Jul 27 21:50:09 ohh you need to do the right creg Jul 27 21:50:22 AT+CREG=1 Jul 27 21:50:33 SIM + handset compatability isnt as high as people seem to think Jul 27 21:50:36 dando: there are already efforts underway to supply all the necessary JSRs though, look into MIDPath for instance Jul 27 21:51:45 STR=`AT+CREG=1' Jul 27 21:51:45 RSTR=`OK' Jul 27 21:51:49 * noidd shrugs Jul 27 21:52:05 Stephmw: ok Jul 27 21:52:07 do AT+COPS=0 Jul 27 21:52:12 err Jul 27 21:52:16 Stephmw good to know Jul 27 21:52:16 I think its dialing you Jul 27 21:53:07 dando: I really should update the wiki on this Jul 27 21:53:10 noidd: really? Jul 27 21:53:19 ;) Jul 27 21:53:27 do it ! Jul 27 21:53:35 I don't get a RSTR Jul 27 21:53:48 But atleast it didnt say no carrier Jul 27 21:53:50 and no AT commands are working anymore Jul 27 21:53:50 noidd: you may need to peek at /tmp/gsm.log Jul 27 21:53:59 it might say no carrier there :) (unfortunately) Jul 27 21:54:03 dando: I'm a little knackered after 3hrs of bouldering ;) Jul 27 21:54:05 Elrond: about half a page, firming up my thoughts on integrators by writing a 'faq'. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Integrators Jul 27 21:54:11 dando: fingers are seriously aching Jul 27 21:54:16 lol Jul 27 21:54:35 noidd: Please do realize that gsmd is noch Jul 27 21:54:54 gsmd still has issues communicating with the modem Jul 27 21:55:25 I'm getting insane :} Jul 27 21:55:28 wierd Jul 27 21:55:35 !OMbug 574 Jul 27 21:55:36 * * Bug 574, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown Jul 27 21:55:37 * * mickey(AT)vanille-media.de: timing issues / buffer parsing issues in gsmd Jul 27 21:55:38 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=574 Jul 27 21:56:03 zecke: What's wrong? Jul 27 21:56:07 /tmp/gsm.log says that there is no reply from modemgsmd whereas I plainly see output on my gsmd command line Jul 27 21:56:27 alphaone: Gdk :) Jul 27 21:56:41 zecke: Ah, say no more :-) Jul 27 21:56:41 alphaone: that's good to know - thanks. Jul 27 21:57:04 I have to implement a working scroll view that can be hooked into GtkScrolledWindow... Jul 27 21:58:00 SpeedEvil - great. I'll read it soon. :-)) Jul 27 22:01:06 noidd: I hope they get this sim working Jul 27 22:01:16 because I have no clue where to go from her Jul 27 22:01:18 e Jul 27 22:02:27 you can buy pay as you go sims at Walmart Jul 27 22:02:36 I'll go by the store and test that this eve Jul 27 22:03:48 UK t-mobile sims work :-) Jul 27 22:06:35 i thought a SIM was a SIM was a SIM Jul 27 22:07:20 this is not 'the sims' ;) Jul 27 22:07:25 don-o: unfortunately GSM suffers from design by commitee Jul 27 22:08:01 I just got 2 unsolicted messages from the GSM line Jul 27 22:08:05 +CREG: 2 Jul 27 22:08:05 +CREG: 3 Jul 27 22:08:18 Will lets post our updates on the 3G sim cards to either the mailing list as "3G sim cards" or to bugzilla #666 Jul 27 22:09:00 creg 2 responce menans you are roaming I think Jul 27 22:09:10 Hello Master Jul 27 22:10:46 noidd: what does AT+CREG? spit out? Jul 27 22:11:32 +CREG: 2,3 Jul 27 22:11:45 intersting, mine is 0,3 Jul 27 22:13:03 I wonder if the fireball sim cars need AT+CPIN..? I don't believe my sim has a pin on it, but maybe its an att thing. Jul 27 22:13:10 ^cars^cards Jul 27 22:14:25 you think the phone firmware might do the unlock? Jul 27 22:14:47 sorry, I will not be available for a few hours due to maintanence Jul 27 22:15:20 Bye Jul 27 22:15:38 gtg, bye Jul 27 22:19:23 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[Hammerhead/Integrators]] [[SH1]] [[Hammerhead/Protocol]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Netherlands]] [[User:Arndot]] [[SH1_FAQ]] [[OpenMoko2008]] Jul 27 22:23:20 the wierd thing about this is that I am certain that at some point I actually got connectivity Jul 27 22:25:42 hmpf... Bv03 again drained its battery... sometimes it survives days... sometimes not a single day. :-( Jul 27 22:29:37 got my phone! Jul 27 22:29:50 http://item.express.ebay.com/Cell-Phones-Wireless-Products_SIM-Cards__New-32K-2G-GSM-Cell-Phone-SIM-Card-For-Cingular-ATT_W0QQitemZ110153547612QQihZ001QQddnZCellQ20PhonesQ20Q26Q20WirelessQ20ProductsQQadnZSIMQ20CardsQQptdiZ125QQddiZ964QQcmdZExpressItem Jul 27 22:29:56 2G sim on ebay Jul 27 22:30:45 hehe "Some cingular users find 32k sim has better reception than 64K sim card" Jul 27 22:30:50 ignore the link :-P Jul 27 22:34:52 noidd: that's a weird assertion... do they have anything to back it up? Jul 27 22:34:57 noidd: sim generation maybe? Jul 27 22:35:38 I dunno Jul 27 22:35:56 there are a ton of sim cards on ebay, they're all 3G that I can tell so far (oh, and satphones) Jul 27 22:37:36 noidd: You're US? Jul 27 22:37:47 noidd: there are insane numbers cheap on ebay UK. Jul 27 22:38:06 Last week I saw a pack of 100 sims for 5 pounds. Jul 27 22:39:27 I'm a Brit in the US Jul 27 22:39:40 and yes, there are insane numbersof sims but they Jul 27 22:39:54 re all the same type as my current one which appears to be giving me problems Jul 27 22:40:02 Hmm. Jul 27 22:40:15 are the sims dodgy, or just unconnected to a network? Jul 27 22:40:27 Stephmw : unconnected Jul 27 22:40:33 STR=`AT+CNUM' Jul 27 22:40:33 RSTR=`+CME ERROR: SIM not inserted' Jul 27 22:40:44 you need to top up before talk. Jul 27 22:41:35 Over here SIMs get disconnected after 12 months of no use. Jul 27 22:49:30 ok, i need to head out Jul 27 22:49:33 see y'all later Jul 27 22:58:54 I'm attempting to build the qemu-neo1973 stuff but it's erroring out once it starts trying to build the arm target. I'm using gcc3 and I've cleared CFLAGS, but it keeps giving the same error. Anyone possibly know why? Jul 27 22:59:53 Leftmost, what distro? Jul 27 22:59:56 Gentoo. Jul 27 23:00:02 Leftmost, sorry; can't help Jul 27 23:00:46 i had some similar issues build i386 on x86_64 Jul 27 23:03:56 I'm on an x86 system and everything is configured to use gcc 3.4.6, but it dies anyhow. Jul 27 23:07:27 my openmoko's been sitting idle since yesterday :( Jul 27 23:08:31 sunkist - What do you mean? Jul 27 23:09:19 i can't make calls, I can only find 3g sim cards Jul 27 23:09:57 i need to pull the workspace, start building/porting apps... Jul 27 23:10:04 sunkist: DOnt worry you are not missing a whole lot. Even withhte SIM, the devicebarely makes calls :) Jul 27 23:11:35 ChooseOpen: ha :) Jul 27 23:11:42 hehe Jul 27 23:11:46 ChooseOpen: :) Jul 27 23:11:56 * Vndmtrx[Compondo is away: Compondo - Sociedade do Dado Viciado - The Other Side of View Jul 27 23:14:36 ChooseOpen: has anyone looked into porting the OpenEmbedded apps? Jul 27 23:15:12 sunkist: No idea... Jul 27 23:15:39 something like this would be nice: http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/ Jul 27 23:16:51 Yup. Hopefully with a little time, we will have that sort of variety as well. :) Jul 27 23:23:28 /status Jul 27 23:23:53 what is the state of the current build Jul 27 23:24:07 is it actively being worked on? Jul 27 23:30:43 yes, why not? Jul 27 23:33:49 i've been wondering about voice recognition, is this expected in gta02 or any subsequent phone? Jul 27 23:34:05 afaik, there isn't much foss that handles this... am i wrong? Jul 27 23:34:43 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Jul 27 23:34:58 you get a lot of information aout of mailing lists Jul 27 23:35:22 khaije1: Do you want special hardware for voice recognition? Or why do you ask for gta02? Jul 27 23:35:24 i guess there will be no voice recognition on gta02 Jul 27 23:36:07 Why not? Jul 27 23:36:24 If someone writes it there will be. Jul 27 23:36:31 :) Jul 27 23:36:37 thats how it works Jul 27 23:36:55 at least i dont think there will be one at september Jul 27 23:37:32 anyone know how i can test the sound? Jul 27 23:37:52 Dunedan: gta02 is the immediately forthcoming consumer version. but there are also other phones in the design process. it's a great feature but i'm not sure if it's even possible for this class of phone w/o speech recognition software in the free domain Jul 27 23:38:41 damn .. they made the neo more expensive? why? Jul 27 23:38:50 i've never heard of foss speech recognition, so i'm not even sure what the hw req's would be, or how difficult it would be to 'bolt on' Jul 27 23:38:52 they did? Jul 27 23:38:55 What? Jul 27 23:39:00 khaije1: right. It's software. So there is no need fot gta02. Voice recognition will be also possible with gta01. Jul 27 23:39:03 450 dollars Jul 27 23:39:24 for base -_- Jul 27 23:39:33 Dunedan: but does the software exist? and is there a plan for it...? Jul 27 23:39:37 What's your source, BasiC? Jul 27 23:39:59 Um, no they didn't. Jul 27 23:40:00 khaije1: I don't know. But this software has nothing to do with gta02 (because that's hardware ;-)) Jul 27 23:40:06 Is there a channel for openmoko app development or is this it? Jul 27 23:40:16 This is pretty much it. Jul 27 23:40:19 the iphone wiki page Jul 27 23:40:24 There may be a future channel. Jul 27 23:40:41 :) Jul 27 23:41:04 The .. iPhone wiki page? o.0 Jul 27 23:41:08 -.- Jul 27 23:41:09 Probably would be a good idea. This channel is too busy with off topic chat to be that useful for actual development. Jul 27 23:41:14 That's your source for FIC Neo1973 information? Jul 27 23:41:16 .._- noah i mean the iphone compare page Jul 27 23:41:20 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone Jul 27 23:41:46 Ah, GTA02 Jul 27 23:41:50 Yes, I think that'll be $450 Jul 27 23:41:54 Thanks - I'm asking because the docs on the the wiki don't go into detail on starting your own application. Just a simple hello world, then falls short on using bitbake Jul 27 23:41:55 Yeah. Jul 27 23:42:06 It has better hardware, and appeals to non-developers too. Jul 27 23:42:10 i guess this will be the price for gta02 Jul 27 23:42:20 (So they're not getting as much free labour as they do with the gta01 ;) Jul 27 23:42:32 damn it Jul 27 23:42:36 i think i will even pay it xD Jul 27 23:42:39 I know there's a channel for internal developers - will need one for the rest of the world at some point. Jul 27 23:42:43 buy* Jul 27 23:42:53 gta02 has 400 MHz CPU and Wifi Jul 27 23:43:04 I don't think I'll buy GTA02 at launch Jul 27 23:43:14 But I might once accelerometer & wifi-software begins to flourish. Jul 27 23:43:16 daxxar: u think its going to be cheaper? or why? Jul 27 23:43:46 I will get it as soon they selll it Jul 27 23:43:47 Depending on what comes. I don't use WiFi on my current phone very much, so heh. Jul 27 23:43:50 its just the cooleste mobilephone ever Jul 27 23:44:03 i never had wifi on my phone Jul 27 23:44:41 .. and playin videos will be offered with 400 mhz and smedia bullshit , uh? am i right? Jul 27 23:44:54 Sort-of. Jul 27 23:45:00 yeah freakin cool Jul 27 23:45:12 Playing specially encoded videos on this version will work just fine. Jul 27 23:45:21 wohoo Jul 27 23:45:22 with GPS there could be cool applikation to config wifi for the corresponding hotspot Jul 27 23:45:31 yeah xD Jul 27 23:45:36 home or work or mc-donalds ... Jul 27 23:45:49 Cool! Latest openmoko revision finally finished compiling. Time to load it up and check it out. The version I loaded was back from 7/4. Jul 27 23:46:16 damn this mobilephone is just great :D Jul 27 23:46:51 Night everyone! Jul 27 23:46:57 * SpeedEvil falls asleep. Jul 27 23:47:03 night Jul 27 23:47:26 * Elrond also falls asleep. ;) Jul 27 23:47:26 good nite Jul 27 23:47:31 its 2 am Jul 27 23:47:31 good nite again Jul 27 23:47:37 lol Jul 27 23:47:44 good morning Jul 27 23:48:02 its 2 am in europe.. u dont know where are they from right? Jul 27 23:48:13 yes Jul 27 23:48:15 Thanks BasiC Jul 27 23:48:17 * SpeedEvil is in the UK, in Fife, Scotland. Jul 27 23:48:18 u c :D Jul 27 23:48:41 * BasiC is located in germany/paderborn Jul 27 23:48:42 but he doesnt too Jul 27 23:49:04 yeah scotland is cool :P Jul 27 23:49:07 germany / mainz Jul 27 23:49:21 scotland rulz Jul 27 23:49:53 You may take our liberty, but you will never take our deep-fried-pizza! Jul 27 23:50:08 is this a real thing.. gta02 WILL DEFINITALY come out in october 07? Jul 27 23:50:15 :) Jul 27 23:50:23 or will it be just like in phase 1 xD Jul 27 23:50:36 I guess that's hard to say. Jul 27 23:50:39 Things can happen. Jul 27 23:51:06 are u just a user or dev? daxxar ? Jul 27 23:51:12 i hope they will release it for december 07 Jul 27 23:51:18 Anyone here tried today's openmoko build yet? Jul 27 23:51:37 yeah me too, i think i will make somebody give me one @ christmas Jul 27 23:51:56 arcanericky: .. the guys who felt asleep did :D Jul 27 23:52:37 yeah openmoko wifi will be great.. i got wlan @ sql Jul 27 23:52:49 Sigh. Either I worked too long a day, or the U.S. is behind the curve. Just now getting around to updating. Jul 27 23:54:26 holy shit Jul 27 23:54:28 8 gb sd cards Jul 27 23:54:28 there is this rumor, that linux isn't that popular as it is in europe. Jul 27 23:54:44 8 GB Jul 27 23:54:44 i cant believe that .. 8 million mbytes on this little thing .. man :D Jul 27 23:54:56 8 GiB or 8 GB Jul 27 23:55:00 gb Jul 27 23:55:08 http://www.comtech.de/product_info.php?ref=19&pID=194655&seo=SD-Card-8GB-HC Jul 27 23:55:49 hope gta02 will support this :D Jul 27 23:56:13 :) Jul 27 23:57:18 that will be great Jul 27 23:57:33 D Jul 27 23:57:43 this is the perfect phone for developer Jul 27 23:57:44 yeah, my first hdd had a size of 20 mb :/ Jul 27 23:57:58 20 MB cool Jul 27 23:58:14 You're young. My first HDD was 5 meg. My first floppy was 88K Jul 27 23:58:22 my first was 1 gb Jul 27 23:58:25 my 30 MB with 80x386 CPU Jul 27 23:58:36 holy :/ Jul 27 23:58:38 u oldschools Jul 27 23:58:48 Yep. And that 88K floppy drive was $549. Jul 27 23:58:48 I'm really looking forward to the regular release. It will be great to actually be able to write applications for my phone.:P Jul 27 23:58:55 lol Jul 27 23:59:04 arcanericky: no, i already could afford a 20 mb hdd :) Jul 27 23:59:06 yeah u r right leftmost Jul 27 23:59:13 i think i will have to take a look on gtk Jul 27 23:59:23 You can already write applications for it. If I can just figure out how to get mine to link with those darn ARM x11 libraries! So close! Jul 27 23:59:25 do that Jul 27 23:59:35 First floppy 720KB HD Jul 27 23:59:38 arcanericky, but the applications won't do me any good.:P Jul 27 23:59:42 DD Jul 27 23:59:52 is it possible to run a screen session on a neo phone? Jul 28 00:00:03 Today's release finally loaded. 'scuse me while I play a bit. Jul 28 00:00:18 but first i want to learn a little bit assembler to understand more about cpus/binaries/libaries/... Jul 28 00:00:22 XXLT: sure, why not? ;) Jul 28 00:00:45 says the guy named BASIC D: Jul 28 00:00:56 yeah, actually i wanted to ask if somebody already did Jul 28 00:01:32 arm architecture ! Jul 28 00:01:41 it is a little endian maschine? Jul 28 00:02:21 anrp: lol Jul 28 00:04:07 those old floppys where 720 * 2^10 Byte Jul 28 00:04:24 that changed with 1,44 MB Jul 28 00:04:34 didnt it ? Jul 28 00:06:00 just remember 644 blocks free (c64 5 1/4" ) Jul 28 00:07:10 yay wine devs just fixed my alsa bugs Jul 28 00:07:16 woot Jul 28 00:07:30 odd question - does shadowfb help the xserver performance on the phone? Jul 28 00:08:00 a definite maybe! Jul 28 00:08:01 644 blocks Jul 28 00:08:17 holy shit Jul 28 00:08:22 ? Jul 28 00:09:18 yeah war3 runs on wine .. and starcraft wooho Jul 28 00:10:04 will it be just possible to start applications like this on the phone Jul 28 00:10:16 it doesnt make sense, but is it possible xD? Jul 28 00:10:29 it's not x86 Jul 28 00:10:35 oh well .. yeah Jul 28 00:10:46 emulate it ! Jul 28 00:10:48 I suppose you could try and run wine in qemu, but... the sanity Jul 28 00:10:50 .. no im just kidding Jul 28 00:11:11 develop your own games Jul 28 00:11:11 you could Jul 28 00:11:24 i've run winzip with qemu+wine on a linux ppc box Jul 28 00:11:28 so no reason arm wouldn't work Jul 28 00:11:34 *nod* Jul 28 00:11:36 games that make fun to play on a 640x480 Jul 28 00:11:48 dosemu might have reasonable performance Jul 28 00:11:49 hard to say Jul 28 00:12:16 dosemu is no problem i would say Jul 28 00:12:34 er.. dosemu is x86 dependant Jul 28 00:12:56 dosemu does some funky vm stuff qemu might have trouble with... then again, so does wine, so... Jul 28 00:13:18 stacked emulators is probably a certifiably bad idea Jul 28 00:13:23 now, dos_box_ would work. Performance? Naah... Jul 28 00:13:42 well, neither dosemu nor wine are really emulators Jul 28 00:14:01 true enough Jul 28 00:14:10 dosemu is a (limited) vm and wine is a winapi implementation and program loader Jul 28 00:14:16 what if you wanted to run darwine though D; Jul 28 00:17:11 wasn't that just coupled wine + qemu? Jul 28 00:17:53 plus some generic porting stuff Jul 28 00:18:00 and the qemu part is getting obsolete fast Jul 28 00:18:31 anyway, this is all silly Jul 28 00:18:41 what we _really_ want running on the neo is VICE Jul 28 00:18:43 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[Hammerhead/Integrators]] [[User:Writchie]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User:Pudelfish]] Jul 28 00:19:56 (UPS estimates I'll have my phone on Monday - what, no express weekend delivery?) Jul 28 00:20:30 It's dificult to ship a Neo1974 to brazil ?? Jul 28 00:21:03 yes, considering such a device doesn't exist ;] Jul 28 00:21:09 meh Jul 28 00:21:13 mjr, beat me to it Jul 28 00:21:23 phrozen77, :D Jul 28 00:21:34 neo1973 Jul 28 00:21:42 there appear to be no shipping notes on Brazil Jul 28 00:21:50 i got mine today D: Jul 28 00:21:57 course, it doesn't work Jul 28 00:21:58 HAUahuahuaha Jul 28 00:21:59 :F Jul 28 00:22:09 I guess it depends if the brazilian customs are hell-bent on preventing merely fcc and ce -certified cell phones from entering the country Jul 28 00:22:25 like the russians are Jul 28 00:22:35 they are hell-bent Jul 28 00:22:57 but the issue is money Jul 28 00:23:04 We are ?? I don't know ... Jul 28 00:23:11 Woo-freakin'-Hoo! Got my first gtk app running on my neo! Jul 28 00:23:34 cool Jul 28 00:23:47 Vndmtrx[Compondo, anyway, you should ask your customs. Because FIC will certainly UPS it there if it can be received... Jul 28 00:24:07 It's a really really simple countdown timer application so I can time the brewing of my french press coffee at work. Jul 28 00:24:42 ;) Jul 28 00:24:49 nice app. Jul 28 00:25:10 mjr, thanks ... Jul 28 00:25:19 And sorry for my bad english hehehe Jul 28 00:25:53 we've seen worse ;] Jul 28 00:27:06 Now I have to figure out how to create a menu entry so I don't have to start it by running it from the command line... Jul 28 00:27:39 If anyone has suggestions on how to get it into the menu in the upper left, I'm listening. Jul 28 00:28:54 but its crazy. 24 h of debugging, development and discussion here. its 2:30 am here in europe. Jul 28 00:30:21 * Vndmtrx[Compondo is back (gone 01:18:23) Jul 28 00:30:29 world brain. Jul 28 00:32:08 i go to sleep Jul 28 00:32:14 cu all Jul 28 00:34:29 I can get it into openmoko-mainmenu. Just want to get it into the dropdown menu now. Jul 28 00:34:35 oh! that reminds me, i'm going to add this to the wiki but a 802.11b/g-based near-field communication called amigo, pretty neat tech, and would be *perfect* on a neo, Jul 28 00:34:35 http://video.google.com/url?docid=-7600056998960496674&esrc=sr1&ev=v&q=amigo%2Btech%2Btalks&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-7600056998960496674&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-7600056998960496674%26q%3Damigo%2Btech%2Btalks%26total%3D6%26start%3D0%26num%3D10%26so%3D0%26type%3Dsearch%26plindex%3D0&usg=AL29H23vsL--Udy5ecfwcCjNJrUD8KYRow Jul 28 00:34:58 hmm didn't realize that would be so huge Jul 28 00:39:06 when i said near-field communication i meant to say near-field authentication (oops!) Jul 28 00:41:50 Vndmtrx: cool, another brazilian Jul 28 00:42:02 cesarb, :) Jul 28 00:42:07 Vndmtrx: (and another brazilian who has no clue if it will be easy to pass customs too :D ) Jul 28 00:42:28 Near-field!=wifi/bluetooth Jul 28 00:42:33 it needs extra hardware. Jul 28 00:42:52 It certainly won't be present in P2. Jul 28 00:43:10 It's already in the hardware wishlist anyway. Jul 28 00:43:39 IIRC the use-cases there don't emphasise it for pairing/auth. Jul 28 00:44:07 cesarb, from where do you ?? Sao Paulo ?? Jul 28 00:44:18 Vndmtrx: rio Jul 28 00:44:34 I'm from Palmas, Tocantins ... Jul 28 00:45:05 Vndmtrx: Niterói, Rio de Janeiro here Jul 28 00:45:15 :) Jul 28 00:48:07 cesarb, When I discover this smartphone (sorry for the 1974 mjr hehe), I'm decided to change my treo 600 ... I was fascinated when I see the OpenMoko runing on qemu ... Jul 28 00:51:08 Vndmtrx: do not be too anxious, currently it doesn't do much more than dialing... the software has yet to be written Jul 28 00:51:24 Vndmtrx: (most people in this channel are interested in writing the software themselves) Jul 28 00:51:32 and dialling is often broken Jul 28 00:51:40 SpeedEvil: not if you use the command line ;-) Jul 28 00:53:01 cesarb, Yes, i know ... But, my interest is develop apps ... Jul 28 00:53:48 What are you interested in? Jul 28 00:53:49 In all case, i'll try to install the python interpreter on it ... Jul 28 00:54:24 Vndmtrx: there is a difference between "develop apps" and "develop the basic phone software"; if you want to develop apps, it's better to wait a bit more until the basic phone software works Jul 28 00:54:43 What apps? Jul 28 00:55:01 You can do 99% of app-development simply in X+GTK Jul 28 00:55:06 Without emulation or anything Jul 28 00:55:22 Xoo++ Jul 28 00:55:34 * daMaestro looks if that got approved for fedora yet Jul 28 00:55:53 cesarb, are you cesar brod ?? Jul 28 00:55:56 hmm... looks like it's in rawhide, but not Vndmtrx: no Jul 28 00:56:07 Humm Jul 28 01:22:30 Sigh. Anyone know how to get an app to show up in the matchbox menu? Jul 28 01:23:57 SpeedEvil: amigo is near-field authentication using standard 802.11 eqpt Jul 28 01:24:29 antenagora: creating a .desktop (see freedesktop.org) and putting it somewhere? Jul 28 01:25:30 Unfortunately, that's fundamentally impossible. Simply winding down the power does not make it near field. Jul 28 01:25:51 It being magnetic or electric in nature, rather than electromagnetic does. Jul 28 01:25:59 This is determined solely by the antenna. Jul 28 01:26:27 The big advantage of near field is that it decays at 1/r^4 - not 1/r^6 Jul 28 01:26:38 The big advantage of near field is that it decays at 1/r^4 - not 1/r^2 Jul 28 01:26:46 SpeedEvil: you're thinking of nearfield communications in general, but this application is only for authentication, once authenticated it uses 802.11 for communication, but since it is properly authenticated this is functionaly identical Jul 28 01:27:34 So it's not nearfield using standard 802.11* then, you need extra hardware. Jul 28 01:30:38 SpeedEvil: to summarize the technology uses the localy specific attributes of background radio signals as a basis for proving local-ness, this is then incorporated into the handshake in combination with asym crypto Jul 28 01:33:02 So it's implemented using a chipset that supports more than simple 802.11 - as standard current chips won't do this? Jul 28 01:36:07 SpeedEvil: as long as the chip supports monitor mode, it will be capable of listening enough to generate suitably locationaly specific fingerprint, proximity is determined on a sliding scale (generally below 75% rejected) based on similarity between two RF fingerprints Jul 28 01:37:55 SpeedEvil: i may not be explaining it well, and it's not perfect, but i think it's ideal for the neo, because it greatly expands functionality w/o add'l hw cost Jul 28 01:39:24 That sounds relatively simply jammable, with a large enough dish, or lens, in close proximity. Beam radio waves at the thing you want to pair with, so that it's different from what the user thinks they are pairing with, and lie about your own environment. Jul 28 01:39:25 there is a nice video lecture here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7600056998960496674) by a project lead Jul 28 01:39:43 How large? Jul 28 01:40:01 um i think it's like 45 mins on google video Jul 28 01:40:15 * SpeedEvil is having connection problems ATM. Jul 28 01:40:20 Is there a website? Jul 28 01:40:50 Near field is nice in that they physics makes it really quite hard to jam. Jul 28 01:41:06 s/jam/intercept/ Jul 28 01:41:06 SpeedEvil meant: Near field is nice in that they physics makes it really quite hard to intercept. Jul 28 01:42:20 not sure about a website... near-field is perhaps a misnomer, it may be more accurate to say proximity, though functionally similar Jul 28 01:43:12 yes, sounds like it's an attempt at achieving similar goals to near-field comms Jul 28 01:43:17 but not really near-field Jul 28 01:43:36 It's really not. With near field - with 5cm antennas, at 1m, the signal strength will be down by a factor of 160000 Jul 28 01:44:29 With wifi, each side is going to be trivially recievable at moderate distances using a modest dish. Jul 28 01:45:16 And transmittable. Jul 28 01:45:20 jamming would be difficult since rf variability is high based on location, and the fingerprint is based on listening, of course if 802.11 is jammed then opening a connection using that info would be infeasible anyway Jul 28 01:46:11 RF variability is only high based on location if one side hasn't been to the point where the pairing is taking place before, and is lying. Jul 28 01:46:22 it's a totally different tech than near-field, but does work reliably to prove proximity, and is all sw Jul 28 01:46:26 And also it's a lot less variable if it's a quiet environment. Jul 28 01:47:26 It works reliably to disprove distance in non-hostile environments. Proving proximity isn't quite the same thing. Jul 28 01:47:53 SpeedEvil: thats true if it's quiet, but because it generates the fingerprint on instantaneous data from multiple attributes of background noise it's difficult to forge Jul 28 01:48:29 Not if you can control the background noise. Jul 28 01:48:59 Quiet environment, and a large dish pointed at the thing you want to pair with. Jul 28 01:49:21 it's used to prove that of the devices that you are trying to auth there isn't a mitm, or a more distant attacker Jul 28 01:50:13 I know. I don't think it can relaibly do that against a skilled attacker with a few hundred or a thousand in resources, and a RF lab to play in. Jul 28 01:50:52 A generalised attack 'in the wild' would be harder, but consider the cellphone/tunnel analogy. Jul 28 01:51:15 You can sit outside tunnels and snoop as phones come back onto the net all at a nice convenient location. Jul 28 01:51:50 Is this method patented? Jul 28 01:52:52 controlling an rf environment, and mapping every point in a controlled environment could hypothetically be used to defeat it, (though the simplest way is to simply have a *closer* hidden antenna), the attack you described also relies on motionless devices Jul 28 01:53:25 since 3d movement would complication prediction attempts, particularly if the devices were held next to each other and moved Jul 28 01:54:00 iirc it's gpl, which is a huge feature Jul 28 01:54:00 I also don't believe the RF environment can be simply mapped in that manner. Jul 28 01:54:24 Even by the devices, as they can only recieve noise, and packets. Jul 28 01:54:36 anything else just isn't passed down to a low level. Jul 28 01:55:27 SpeedEvil: i don't know enough about the rf reception capabilities of 802.11 eqpt, which makes me less effective at proving or refuting, since it relies intrinsicly on their properties Jul 28 01:55:43 They vary. Jul 28 01:55:56 Basically, you don't get access to the raw hardware. Jul 28 01:56:17 The microcontroller in the wifi equipment collects packets, and statistics, and passes them back to you. Jul 28 01:56:31 i'm not proposing it as a replacement for near-field(tm) only as a workable proximity-auth extention for 802.11 Jul 28 01:57:14 the fingerprint algo is based on a combination of the to as well as numerous wave properties Jul 28 01:57:16 It's plausible for low-security stuff. Jul 28 01:57:27 You can't measure the wave properties. Jul 28 01:57:33 the modem doesn't give them to you. Jul 28 01:57:48 the lecture seems to suggest otherwise Jul 28 01:57:57 It gives you the packet, its strength, and if htere were errors, and the background noise. Jul 28 01:58:34 I'll probably download it sometime when my connection is feeling better. Jul 28 01:58:57 * mwester notes how ironic it is that even as "moko-ites" mock apple and the iphone, at least apple managed to deliver the product... :( Jul 28 01:59:05 Sounds interesting - I wouldn't trust it for financial things though. Jul 28 01:59:11 We've delivered product! Jul 28 01:59:22 Ok - the product sucks for users - but... Jul 28 01:59:26 And there isn't much of it. Jul 28 01:59:39 mwester: Are you here for a reason or just to troll? Jul 28 02:00:00 *SOME* product has been delivered, SpeedEvil. Jul 28 02:00:03 * SpeedEvil wonders if mwester will blend. Jul 28 02:00:27 blend what? Jul 28 02:00:30 Yes - I know - 100-200 phones or not. Jul 28 02:00:32 heh Jul 28 02:00:41 or so. Jul 28 02:00:50 Will he blend Jul 28 02:01:15 speak English. Jul 28 02:01:26 google 'will it blend'. Jul 28 02:01:45 i think it could have many immediate practical aplications for defeating 'big-ass-antenna-from-a-distance' attacks on the cheap Jul 28 02:01:50 No, if someone doesn't wish to speak English, I'll not bother to listen to them@ Jul 28 02:02:03 and maybe more Jul 28 02:02:03 Goodbye. Jul 28 02:02:44 I'm just catching up, and was hoping to find product on my doorstep after a week out of town. Very disappointing to have been such a vocal advocate of this product, to find disappointment after dissapointment. Jul 28 02:02:55 Indeed. Jul 28 02:02:56 Sorry, hads, if expression one's frustration bothers you. Jul 28 02:03:02 It's very annoying. Jul 28 02:03:08 * SpeedEvil is also waiting. Jul 28 02:03:53 hehe next we'll be crying about whether it will make phone calls regularly or not...it will be a rough few months Jul 28 02:04:06 but it goes with the territory Jul 28 02:04:11 Personally. Jul 28 02:04:18 I'm not so interested in phone calls. Jul 28 02:04:24 Well, some might. I had hoped to be on the P0 list and working with the product long before it made phone calls. Jul 28 02:04:47 My mobiles have tended to die with expired credit due to non-use for calls. Jul 28 02:04:55 I can make phone calls on any of a number of other devices; I can't do the things I with to with anything other than the Neo :) Jul 28 02:05:06 Delays have been so annoyingly ongoing. Jul 28 02:05:11 Hey mwester, I got my neo today! :) Jul 28 02:05:23 And we still haven't had confirmation of the next batch. Jul 28 02:05:32 its got a lot of possibilities but without a phone its just a n800 with less screen rez :) Jul 28 02:05:43 * mwester goes to look up his number... Jul 28 02:06:03 telconta1: GPS Jul 28 02:06:09 arcanericky: you're talking about a gta01? Jul 28 02:06:36 3296 Jul 28 02:06:40 Yep! Already hacked my first app for it! Jul 28 02:06:58 Where are we on the list, anyone been keeping track? Jul 28 02:07:10 sweet! i'm brushing up on my python for that occasion myself (though waiting for gta02/3) Jul 28 02:07:11 I was #2353 or something or other. Jul 28 02:07:34 Ouch. I probably won't make the next batch then -- they only made 1000, right? Jul 28 02:07:34 I think 2450 or so is the top. Jul 28 02:07:44 it started at 1820 Jul 28 02:07:48 bleh Jul 28 02:07:53 possibly :/ Jul 28 02:08:01 2005 but i ordered an orange :| Jul 28 02:08:47 Ok. Well, nothing to do about it. But I've kind of run out of what I can do with the simulator for the moment, so I'll have to find some other project for it. Jul 28 02:08:58 Who ported python? It's not on the file system I just loaded (I'll have to check again) Jul 28 02:09:54 afaik it's scheduled for gta02 Jul 28 02:09:54 hads: I'll return you to whatever lurking you wish to do, or jump on folks here, whatever it is that you enjoy! Jul 28 02:09:58 arcanericky: What app did you get running? Jul 28 02:10:25 Hmm. I'm not totally clear on how package management will work on the phone. On the emulator it looks kind of like synaptic, but the [[Create_a_package_from_existing_sources]] article doesn't seem to mention anything about specifying package dependencies and I'm not clear on whether it'd be possible to download packages from somewhere and install them. Anyone know where I can find that sort of info? Jul 28 02:10:47 A stupid little countdown timer app I plan to use for timing the brewing of my french press coffee on Monday Jul 28 02:11:09 Good question. I assumed it was going to be ipkg, but that was just an assumption. Jul 28 02:11:22 arcanericky: lol. thats an intersting choice Jul 28 02:11:35 Hey - I gotta be motivated somehow! :) Jul 28 02:11:47 * madewokherd adds the stupid little countdown timer app, or the ability to write one in python, to the list of features he expects in the mass-market version Jul 28 02:12:02 hehe Jul 28 02:12:36 And the input of coffee / caffeine definitely motivates me! Jul 28 02:13:41 madewokherd: just install the bindings? Jul 28 02:13:58 the what? Jul 28 02:14:14 I don't know what you're talking about Jul 28 02:14:16 madewokherd: python runtime + openmoko bindings? Jul 28 02:14:25 I'm just a vaguely interested lurker Jul 28 02:14:32 not someone who actually knows something Jul 28 02:14:44 madewokherd: then don't spam the wiki for stuff already available? ;) Jul 28 02:14:56 wiki? Jul 28 02:15:50 Sort of what I'm thinking here is this: I'm working on a dictionary application that will most likely require sqlite. I would both like to be able to package the application and make it available for download and make sure that it can specify a dependency on sqlite. (Additionally, sqlite should at least be a package in the tree that can be made available for installation, though it'd probably be too much to install by def Jul 28 02:15:50 ault. I'm not even sure at this point that there are packages one can install that aren't already installed.) Jul 28 02:16:53 I don't know anything about what you're talking about so back to lurking Jul 28 02:16:57 Ideally. Jul 28 02:17:15 We _really_ want it all to fit in the 128M of NAND flash - for core apps. Jul 28 02:17:38 If it doesn't, then the user can't easily swap the SD. Jul 28 02:17:53 i really hope we do better than a 1Gb NAND Jul 28 02:18:10 Unlikely. Jul 28 02:18:40 i really like the phone Jul 28 02:18:44 SpeedEvil: are you a core dev? Jul 28 02:18:49 n Jul 28 02:18:49 o Jul 28 02:19:03 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Canberra]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973]] Jul 28 02:19:10 SpeedEvil, that's perfectly understandable and I'm not saying sqlite should be part of the core apps. I'm just saying it should be possible for a user to select and install additional packages and that a list of packages should be made available. Jul 28 02:19:15 oic, you seem knowledgeable about the design details Jul 28 02:19:57 lurking on ML,IRC, understanding of electronics involved, reading every page on the wiki. Jul 28 02:20:16 And trying to bring some sanity to it. Jul 28 02:20:17 i thought sqlite was in already...its only 200k if not Jul 28 02:20:34 and prob the most useful 200k evar :) Jul 28 02:21:18 anybody know how long DFU takes to download rootfs? Jul 28 02:21:51 A few minutes to download. I seems like it took five or so. Be patient. Jul 28 02:22:39 It just seems like, to make the platform developer-friendly, it will have to have some sort of dependency-managing package management and a list of installable libraries and software that aren't part of the core applications. Jul 28 02:27:48 Leftmost: ipkg can track dependencies, it has 'feeds' so can install software from other places Jul 28 02:28:25 SpeedEvil: i was just thinking about what you said about not trusting amigo, i think it might be better described as a way of verifying a pubkey exchange session isn't snooped or highjacked, based on the condition of co-locality Jul 28 02:28:26 Leftmost: write a BitBake file for your package and then it will be installable and if we decide to switch to rpm, deb, ... it will just keep working Jul 28 02:31:06 Hmm. I guess the problem is that I can't find any information on specifying dependencies in bitbake. Thanks for the clarification on that though, zecke. Jul 28 02:31:22 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: Product naming / wiki page naming / restructuring Jul 28 02:31:24 Leftmost: if you link against libraries it will just work Jul 28 02:31:53 Leftmost: it will do objdump on your installied binaries, look at SO_NEEDED, check which packages provide this library and add RDEPENDS Jul 28 02:32:25 Ahh, alright. Jul 28 02:34:19 the order/shipping process seems to be going rather chaoticly Jul 28 02:35:20 orzo: YOu just realized that :) Jul 28 02:36:32 well is there some explanation Jul 28 02:36:33 heh Jul 28 02:37:16 orzo: Basically it is generally accepted that FIC is not used to business-to-consumer sales. We are seeing all the rough edges... Jul 28 02:38:25 not really an explanation Jul 28 02:38:31 heh Jul 28 02:38:52 orzo: yeah, hopefully once the smoke clears, FIC will enlighten us as to what all the problems were. Jul 28 02:39:06 orzo: Better us than the end users... Jul 28 02:39:58 The root cause is that they tried to set up a nice general customer site for FIC, that could deal with large volumes. Jul 28 02:40:03 And it fell over. Jul 28 02:40:04 i recall an email saying there were 500 in the states and that another 500 was clearing customs Jul 28 02:40:04 meh when you hear them having to write an webapp to take orders...i didn't expect much good to come of that Jul 28 02:40:11 So a replacement was hacked up in a few hours. Jul 28 02:40:11 has that other 500 made it through yet? Jul 28 02:40:21 orzo: not been reported. Jul 28 02:41:10 khaije1: pretty much. Jul 28 02:41:41 khaije1: misusing technical terms 'near-field' that have very precise definitions doesn't help the cause with anyone who knows what the terms mean. Jul 28 02:48:40 SpeedEvil: granted Jul 28 02:49:27 for what its worth I really like this device - exceeds my expectation. Jul 28 02:49:43 the screen is beautiful Jul 28 02:49:56 i couldn't find the magnifier in my box. Jul 28 02:50:02 it will look really good when people get a chance to code some stuff for it Jul 28 02:50:15 yes. and get the sizes right Jul 28 02:50:23 amen. this thing is pretty awesome. I was pleasantly surprised when I opened the box. THe device was actually smaller (thinner) than I imagined. Jul 28 02:50:49 I cant believe that such small fonts are still readable. very clear Jul 28 02:50:53 i use a p800 so i'm used to oversized phones. Jul 28 02:51:08 font's are not readible with visual help. Jul 28 02:51:29 i.e. without Jul 28 02:51:47 its fine at this stage. Jul 28 02:52:15 Writchie: sure they are. you just have to squint ;) Jul 28 02:52:23 if the software interface were all rigidly defined this could be a real phone by christmas Jul 28 02:52:56 Most people at my office thought the neo looked really nice, the display was nice, and that it was so light. Jul 28 02:53:05 the weight is good. Jul 28 02:53:28 the sim holders and microsd locations, however, are going to big problem in us Jul 28 02:54:02 I was told "You look hot with that thing around your neck" LOL! Jul 28 02:54:23 what color is it Jul 28 02:54:43 the only color that ships at the moment b & s Jul 28 02:54:54 heh Jul 28 02:55:12 i'm glad i let both of them be this color. Jul 28 02:55:58 apps of course don't work and don't make calls so on the command line. Jul 28 02:56:28 i.e. onto the command line we go. Jul 28 02:56:51 you must have must loaded rootfs and are firing it up for the first time. Jul 28 02:57:01 DFU isn't going to cut it for download. Jul 28 02:57:16 64KB / sec max because it doesn't use bulk transfer. Jul 28 02:57:50 Writchie: No luck on using the DIaler GUI? Jul 28 02:57:51 need a better solution - probably mass storage driver Jul 28 02:58:15 i didn't expect it to work for a real call. Jul 28 02:58:20 but i like the dialing. Jul 28 02:58:23 smaller and thinner? Jul 28 02:58:38 the thickness seemed different in different pictures Jul 28 02:58:45 it's not Jul 28 02:58:47 i have fat fingers that barely work on p800 Jul 28 02:58:49 Writchie: I was able to get the GUI to work, mostly :) Jul 28 02:58:50 work nice on this. Jul 28 02:59:02 same thickness on P0,1,2 the case doesn't change Jul 28 02:59:13 ChooseOpen: did you have to fiddle with something? Jul 28 02:59:28 Writchie: Just the alsa volume. Jul 28 02:59:46 It's not just sound - the calls aren't going through Jul 28 02:59:54 the only thing that didnt work is the incoming audible ringer. Jul 28 02:59:55 modem connection may not be any good. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 28 02:59:56 2007