**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 29 02:59:56 2007 Jul 29 03:00:44 Can someone tell me how much time it would talk to install the openmoko in Ubuntu 7.04 Jul 29 03:01:11 what kind of processor and memory? Jul 29 03:01:34 man i set it up and used mokomakefile, and it took like 2days in a virtual machine! Jul 29 03:01:43 but i only gave it 512mb of RAM :p Jul 29 03:01:55 and I was using my box non-stop, almost. Jul 29 03:01:59 lol, in a vm? well, it only took two days, but that was due to crashes from bugs :P Jul 29 03:02:23 but from start to finish, on a 4 year old system... about 24 hours all told Jul 29 03:03:15 ZerothCloned: my machine is 3.2ghz with 1 mb ram Jul 29 03:03:37 ZerothCloned: how much stuuf had to be downloaded Jul 29 03:07:24 i think 5-6 hrs on my opty 165 w/1gb Jul 29 03:07:30 i don't think distro matters too much Jul 29 03:07:31 *maybe 8hrs Jul 29 03:08:01 it's not using multitasking too well though so i don't think even a core 2 quad'll get below say 4 hours Jul 29 03:08:32 happycube: is it only possible to install it in a full stretch Jul 29 03:08:32 I'm surprised how well my machine's done for four years old. Its a Celeron D for crissakes... and yet, its just enough :D Jul 29 03:09:03 on a pemtium-m 725 1,5gb ram slackware12 it took 6h using mokomakefile Jul 29 03:09:38 not bad Jul 29 03:09:45 i think a lot of the time's spent downloading Jul 29 03:10:02 there *ought* to be a way to get bitbake to figure out what to download and then go out and do it in another thread Jul 29 03:10:21 that alone would cut build times a lot! Jul 29 03:10:32 hells yes Jul 29 03:10:48 well, can't it be done via threads in a script? Jul 29 03:11:07 do it all via Python, and I expect the code would be smaller, and faster Jul 29 03:14:29 yeah Jul 29 03:14:36 bitbake *is* in python ;) Jul 29 03:14:42 moo Jul 29 03:14:49 hey Jul 29 03:15:13 I meant the mokomakefile Jul 29 03:15:37 nah mokomakefile is fine - if bitbake gets background downloading all of OE can use it Jul 29 03:15:42 i think it downloaded about 1.2 gb Jul 29 03:16:37 my sources directory is about 600M Jul 29 03:17:11 It probably downloaded around 500M (it seems to unpack the git sources) Jul 29 03:19:59 happycube: I think the 1.8 version of bitbake does exactly that, if you set the right variables and all. But I think OpenMoko is still using the older 1.6 version of bitbake. Jul 29 03:20:09 ooooh nice Jul 29 03:21:24 Huh. I wonder if that's why I had such trouble. My distro ships 1.8 Jul 29 03:22:09 augh Jul 29 03:22:40 Aria: if you use mokomakefile, it uses a local copy of bitbake, so that wouldn't cause a problem Jul 29 03:22:58 Yeah. I just want to understand ans control the process. Jul 29 03:24:08 I tried to follow the process of the MokoMakefile wiki, for adding my own app... and dagnabbit it didn't apply the damned patch *rants and fumes* Jul 29 03:25:08 i guess om2008'll fix that Jul 29 03:26:21 One of the big benefits of openembedded (the heart of the mokomakefile) is that it builds *everything*, including its own toolchain and everything it needs to be able to build the entire distro. Jul 29 03:26:43 The problem with that is that it takes forever, and seemingly-simple things are complicated. Jul 29 03:26:46 which is nice. and theres like... 1508 packages in there to pick and choose from Jul 29 03:27:18 and more if youwrite your own Jul 29 03:27:35 What would be really nice is if moko would stabilize to the point where one could download a pre-built tool-chain and libs, so that one just has to build the application code (and maybe supporting libs if it has special ones). Jul 29 03:27:56 Maybe that'll happen when we get the first "release"... Jul 29 03:28:16 cross compiling in general can get hairy Jul 29 03:28:28 heh, I have plans to make a business centering around openmoko, and I'm not holding my breath for fic to stabilize openmoko. Jul 29 03:29:04 instead, in true FOSS fashion, gather a bunch of good coders, and get them to work on the stability and ease of use that would be demanded by business consumers Jul 29 03:29:29 Then you'll need to become totally comfortable with OE and it's features -- good and bad. Jul 29 03:29:53 yeah, Jul 29 03:29:54 yeah Jul 29 03:30:25 is there a nice oe introduction on the wiki? Jul 29 03:30:32 *for real oe hacking Jul 29 03:30:35 Not on the openmoko wiki. Jul 29 03:31:07 not yet... Jul 29 03:31:13 read the oe getting started wiki Jul 29 03:31:15 http://www.openembedded.org/ is a good place to start. Jul 29 03:31:16 and once I do find a workable process, I will share it. Jul 29 03:31:22 ther eis also an oe manual Jul 29 03:32:36 OE manual: http://www.openembedded.org/user-manual (but watch out for bitbake 1.8 / 1.6 differences, they can be significant) Jul 29 03:38:01 anyone here get a device yet? was it bootable when you got it? Jul 29 03:38:23 I've heard they aren't bootable initially. Jul 29 03:45:08 ZerothCloned: they aren't, according to the wiki they don't have the root fs Jul 29 03:45:34 but they have bootloader? Jul 29 03:45:51 ljp: yes Jul 29 03:45:58 k. thanks Jul 29 03:46:13 ljp: they also have the kernel (by mistake, it was supposed to be missing like the root fs) Jul 29 03:46:30 *crosses fingers and prays* Jul 29 03:46:43 ljp: they have to have a bootloader... without the debug board, it's the only way to flash the rest Jul 29 03:46:54 happycube: you still around? Jul 29 03:47:09 GAHH Jul 29 03:47:45 It did it AGAIN Jul 29 03:48:04 I'm following the instructions in the Wiki, on adding a new app to the image Jul 29 03:48:15 however, after doing quilt refresh Jul 29 03:48:40 then doing make update, it friggin REVERTS the changes I made to the task-openmoko.bb file Jul 29 03:48:43 "Reverted 'trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb' Jul 29 03:48:43 " Jul 29 03:48:55 ZerothCloned: ok try this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Create_a_package_from_existing_sources Jul 29 03:49:29 ZerothCloned: why are you editing directly the openmoko tree? Jul 29 03:49:30 it's a bit simplified in places and Koen hates it, but it's quick dirty and gets the job done Jul 29 03:49:59 ZerothCloned: both it and openembedded shouldn't be edited, precisely because your changes will sooner or later end up being overwritten Jul 29 03:50:22 ZerothCloned: try either an overlay tree or adding patches to mokomakefile's patches directory instead Jul 29 03:50:52 ZerothCloned: (I personally think an overlay tree is simpler to use, unless you want just to fix small bugs on both upstream's recipes) Jul 29 03:51:33 ZerothCloned: or you could just create a local repo add it to the bb dirs and just pull in from that repo, it's a terrible way to do it, but a nice place to start if you're totally lost. If you're somewhat less lost definately go with the overlay tree that cesarb suggests Jul 29 03:52:36 ZerothCloned: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/Using_a_local_overlay Jul 29 03:53:10 cesarb: i didn't know there was an article on that! sweet work dude! Jul 29 03:53:22 ZerothCloned: under no circumstances do what i said follow that article! Jul 29 03:54:35 Any way I can like... do something really really nice for you guys, Cesarb, BryceLeo? Jul 29 03:56:26 Oh, cesarb, quick bash tip, "mkdir local/{,conf,classes,packages}" does the same as "mkdir local local/conf local/classes local/packages" Jul 29 03:56:45 ZerothCloned: lol how do you mean? Jul 29 03:58:50 ZerothCloned: it does the same thing, and also is less comprehensible for the ones who don't know much about shell tricks Jul 29 03:59:14 ZerothCloned: I tried to be easy to understand, and such overuse of advanced syntax would detract from that goal Jul 29 04:05:11 Okay, I've created the local overlay, and so, to add a new package, I simply... create a new dir, put the source and the .bb file in there? Jul 29 04:05:14 cesarb: so how goes it? I'm thinking of taking tomorrow and building a wiki crash course page. A sample app, a sample overlay, sample bb files, and all the instructions to set it up on your own box and maybe a tarball to go with it Jul 29 04:06:05 BryceLeo, that sounds like a good idea Jul 29 04:06:28 That would be awesome @ BryceLeo Jul 29 04:06:31 ZerothCloned: you create a new directory under pacakges/, put the .bb file on it, create a files/ directory on it, put the .tar.gz with the source on it, and reference the .tar.gz on SRC_URI on the .bb Jul 29 04:07:18 Psi_: ZerothCloned i figured there's a whole lot of new guys up in here trying their hand at coding and running apps, and some nice quick success is always good to keep the motivation flowing Jul 29 04:07:30 yeah Jul 29 04:08:16 ZerothCloned: and to add it to task-base or task-openmoko, create packages/tasks, copy oe/packages/tasks/task-base.bb (or task-openmoko.bb) to it, and edit it... the priority on the conf will make bitbake prefer the task-base.bb on the overlay Jul 29 04:08:23 now i will let you guys know that Koen (smart guy, great with OE and a fantastic coder) will call this useless, terrible, incorrect and a waste of time and effort and will repeatedly link you to the OE manual. But if i put it up there i've tried it and it works Jul 29 04:08:57 and i do know my way around OE and bitbake fairly well so it should be pretty accurate and the discriptions will in some cases be over simplified but they'll get the point accross Jul 29 04:11:13 * BryceLeo sighs, why in heavens name did i put a comma in my crebuild path Jul 29 04:15:55 Psi_: ZerothCloned anything in particular that you're going to be looking for in the crash course? Jul 29 04:17:49 lots of example applications Jul 29 04:19:34 Psi_: how bout one good one that'll give you a basic framework for your apps Jul 29 04:19:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Manually_using_GPRS]] [[User_talk:Captain_morgan]] Jul 29 04:21:38 BryceLeo, problem with them is that a good framework will probable end up being quite complex Jul 29 04:22:04 and thus too complex for someone just starting out Jul 29 04:22:20 How about a simple helloworld app Psi_? Jul 29 04:22:30 Psi_: haha no no i won't do that it'll be just complete enough to build a gtk hello world, that'll be a great start Jul 29 04:22:39 ah, then yes Jul 29 04:22:45 and you'll be able to adapt it from there Jul 29 04:23:04 isnt there already a hello world example app Jul 29 04:23:19 there is, actually Jul 29 04:23:55 Psi_: ZerothCloned i'm pretty much gonna be unifying all the docs on what's needed to create an app Jul 29 04:24:25 but i'lll be explaining a bit more thoroughly in some cases and hopefully explaining better Jul 29 04:24:38 maybe something like a app that has 10 buttons that do basic stuff like turn the backlight on /off, etc. Jul 29 04:24:49 and i'll hopefully be sending out a tar with a setup script that will set you up to bitbake testapp and then build it all Jul 29 04:25:21 Psi_: i'll see what i can work on, i can get the basic app on Jul 29 04:26:01 then work on the app from there Jul 29 04:26:09 sounds good Jul 29 04:26:33 sweet Jul 29 04:27:48 BryceLeo: per Zawinski's Law, your basic app should be able to read email ;-) Jul 29 04:28:12 cesarb: lmao just wait till it makes coffee! Jul 29 04:28:31 BryceLeo: Thats before it can read email ;) Jul 29 04:29:05 ZerothCloned: hell i need the coffee to debug the dumb errors i'll make in coding the reader Jul 29 04:29:08 :-D Jul 29 04:30:29 i put a damn comma in my crebuild variable, i'm great with making simple errors Jul 29 04:32:29 BryceLeo: Thats just a typo. At least you don't triple-check a script, intended to be running for a few hours on an important task... and miss all three times an infinite loop! Jul 29 04:33:24 ZerothCloned: lol... ok i'll give you that one, but i accidently set a cron job for hourly instead of monthly.... though it was 4am Jul 29 04:43:11 night guys! Jul 29 04:45:11 night ZerothCloned Jul 29 04:45:50 i agree off to bed for me Jul 29 04:45:54 night all Jul 29 05:01:50 cd .. Jul 29 05:01:50 ls Jul 29 05:02:02 (:) sorry wrong term) Jul 29 05:03:12 bash: cd: command not found Jul 29 05:16:18 hey everyone, I don't see any responses on the mailing list to the issue of backing up the GPS driver, has anyone solved this? Jul 29 05:16:18 bradpitcher: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 29 05:16:24 bryce - back now but you're off already Jul 29 05:18:34 brad - i copied off the partitions before i wrote but my macbook's not booted to linux atm Jul 29 05:18:46 actually i think i put it on a usb stick - i'll check after shower Jul 29 05:19:19 but, I couldn't connect to the phone to do that because of the kernel panic Jul 29 05:19:28 at least I assume that's the reason Jul 29 05:25:54 bradpitcher: if it's one of the SH1 phones which have no root fs (which is why they kernel panic), there is no GPS driver to backup Jul 29 05:27:07 oh, ok. then I have nothing to lose by blowing everything away I guess Jul 29 05:28:45 bradpitcher: if it's one of the SH1 phones which have no root fs, there's nothing to blow away but the kernel ;-) Jul 29 05:28:55 (which was already flashed by mistake, according to the wiki) Jul 29 05:31:48 so all I need to reflash is the kernel? Jul 29 05:32:07 bradpitcher: you'd have to reflash the kernel and flash a working root fs Jul 29 05:32:19 ok, but not u-boot Jul 29 05:32:35 bradpitcher: yeah, no need to touch uboot Jul 29 05:32:48 cool, thanks dude Jul 29 05:32:48 Hello Lord Jul 29 05:33:46 * bradpitcher is compiling dfu-util Jul 29 05:35:29 thanks, cesarb. I will pass on the knowledge you have given me to anyone who asks :) Jul 29 05:35:30 SH1 link given above tells how to backup from u-boot using DFU Jul 29 05:36:07 no need for working kernel/rootfs Jul 29 05:37:57 hey everyone, i heard that i could install ipks within qemu from my host using scp..how exactly do i do that? Jul 29 05:38:09 bradpitcher: above 2 lines were for (and I refer to earlier FAQ link which is also in topic) Jul 29 05:38:34 s/for/for you/ Jul 29 05:38:34 aloril2 meant: bradpitcher: above 2 lines were for you (and I refer to earlier FAQ link which is also in topic) Jul 29 06:14:07 moin Jul 29 06:20:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1]] [[GPS]] [[Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973]] [[Development_resources]] [[Talk:Openstreetmap]] [[Wishlist:Camera]] [[IPhone]] Jul 29 06:34:32 any word about production of further phones than initial 1000 ones? Jul 29 06:38:30 * Sup3rkiddo 's order falls in >1000 orders :(, not billed yet Jul 29 06:42:02 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte [ANNOUNCE]: New 'device-owners' mailing list Jul 29 06:54:31 * paulproteus joins the new list Jul 29 06:56:22 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: Back up of the "Factory Bad Block Table" BBT, needed or a Jul 29 07:02:58 That was fun. Kernel panic installing a vserver to build moko in Jul 29 07:24:17 gah Jul 29 07:24:44 joining that new mailing list forces your password to change. Jul 29 07:41:22 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: GTA02 Board only option in October? Jul 29 08:09:59 about laf0rge's mail about GTA02 upgrade: good to see it and it confirms my guess that cheapest upgrade most likely is to sell GTA01 and buy GTA02 Jul 29 08:19:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[SH1_FAQ]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] Jul 29 08:41:24 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 29 08:42:48 YEAH!!!! Jul 29 08:42:55 Got my UPS email! Jul 29 08:43:24 :D Jul 29 08:43:32 finally :) Jul 29 08:44:20 * ScaredyCat checks ups site t see if those lazy ass customs mofos have passed it Jul 29 08:44:34 nope :/ Jul 29 08:48:11 ScaredyCat: So you still want Jason1's? Jul 29 08:48:41 yah .. you could always do with 2 :) Jul 29 08:48:50 Yup. Jul 29 08:51:12 can i has jason1's neo? =| Jul 29 08:51:37 ~can i has an openmoko? Jul 29 08:51:39 ~can i has an openmoko Jul 29 08:51:50 &can i has an openmoko? Jul 29 08:51:51 No Jul 29 08:52:02 * ewanm89_laptop <--- idiot Jul 29 08:52:35 & is now the bot short address character. Jul 29 08:52:37 yay.. Jul 29 08:52:50 where is apt? Jul 29 08:53:07 Still here Jul 29 08:53:36 ~dtx Jul 29 08:53:41 ~apt Jul 29 08:53:42 hmm... apt is the debian package manager and nothing to do with ibot, infobot, jbot or perl Jul 29 08:53:46 see Jul 29 08:54:06 nice Jul 29 08:54:12 ~mokobot Jul 29 08:54:13 well, mokobot is a lousy competitor Jul 29 08:54:21 &apt Jul 29 08:54:37 &Sup3rkiddo Jul 29 08:54:37 22% lame, apparently Jul 29 08:54:40 aah Jul 29 08:54:50 &apt Jul 29 08:54:50 rumour has it, apt is a wanabee me Jul 29 08:57:56 * ScaredyCat eyes up a Tassimo Jul 29 08:58:19 aloril: you ordered one, right? Jul 29 08:58:28 mjr: any news about your order? Jul 29 09:01:31 A1 Jul 29 09:03:18 guaqua: my Neo1973 is stuck at Lousville, KY, US for weekend Jul 29 09:03:55 * * OM Bug 668 has been created by jserv.tw(AT)gmail.com Jul 29 09:03:56 * * Invalid FEED_URIS in conf/distro/openmoko.conf Jul 29 09:03:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=668 Jul 29 09:04:33 guaqua: see #openmoko-fi for updates (there has been frequent updates of shipping progress by me and mjr) Jul 29 09:04:37 aloril2: seems they have bad weather... mine was delayed there too... although according to the ups site it's in .nl atm Jul 29 09:09:09 hm.. for my neo UPS tracking "PKG DELAY-ADD'L SECURITY CHECK BY GOV'T OR OTHER AGENCY- BEYOND UPS CONTROL" was just replaced with UPS INTERNAL ACTIVITY CODE Jul 29 09:11:47 is the internal ups activity code URFCKD ? Jul 29 09:11:58 it doesnt say the code Jul 29 09:12:23 just says "ONTARIO, CA, US - 07/28/2007 - 10:39 A.M. - UPS INTERNAL ACTIVITY CODE Jul 29 09:12:55 before that line had the "DELAY SECURITY CHECK" bit at the end Jul 29 09:13:23 hehe, just noticed what you said Jul 29 09:13:59 :) Jul 29 09:14:02 when my neo arrives ill be checking for any signs that its been opened by customs etc.. Jul 29 09:14:27 not that i care, just as long as its not been damaged Jul 29 09:14:37 Psi_: Probably, at least x-rayed and goggled at. Jul 29 09:14:51 it's a bomb! Jul 29 09:14:54 *BOOM* Jul 29 09:15:04 yeah, id imagine thats what it was, got put into the pile of random stuff to be xrayed Jul 29 09:16:18 well its some bizarre new linux phone Jul 29 09:16:27 they probably can't tell what it is Jul 29 09:16:29 :) Jul 29 09:16:32 i would've imagined it'd get x-rayed at its originating airport... but what would i know Jul 29 09:17:00 customs authorities dont have jurisdiction at another countries airport Jul 29 09:17:11 also they wont trust what is done there Jul 29 09:17:16 it could be replaced mid-transit Jul 29 09:17:22 altough american ones *think* they do ;) Jul 29 09:17:27 it started off in Sunnyvale then moved to Oakland where this security check thing happened Jul 29 09:17:37 it will be checked when it enters the controlling domain Jul 29 09:17:46 id imagine oakland is probably where it will get loaded onto a intl flight to NZ Jul 29 09:17:49 ScaredyCat: yes - what they think and is reality - are 2 different things :) Jul 29 09:18:05 The British ones often ask another countries customs to help them. Jul 29 09:18:08 it's a well known fact that everyone from nz is a terst Jul 29 09:18:16 heh Jul 29 09:18:23 :D Jul 29 09:18:29 ScaredyCat: those crazy kiwis Jul 29 09:18:33 i'm scared of them! Jul 29 09:18:33 ya Jul 29 09:18:34 :) Jul 29 09:18:50 Customs job is to check inbound, not outbound (usually). Jul 29 09:18:51 i mean - drinking such an unhealthy amount of spates will turn you that way Jul 29 09:18:52 :) Jul 29 09:18:56 my wife is allergic to kiwi, I now understand why ;) Jul 29 09:18:57 LOL Jul 29 09:19:03 lol Jul 29 09:19:26 heh Jul 29 09:19:47 haha Jul 29 09:19:56 it just changed back to the Security delay thing Jul 29 09:20:08 thats weird Jul 29 09:20:33 they heard us talking Jul 29 09:20:36 time is exactly the same Jul 29 09:20:40 customs can't make up there mind? Jul 29 09:20:42 Hallelujah! Jul 29 09:22:30 they are probably scared ever since that NZ guy made that GPS controlled cruise missile Jul 29 09:22:48 they are afraid of the hobbits Jul 29 09:24:14 http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_story_skin/422751%3Fformat=html Jul 29 09:26:27 raster, do you know robi k. ? Jul 29 09:28:43 Psi_: Maybe a neo with a couple of nitroglycerine boosters? Jul 29 09:29:23 hehe, its got a few JATOs attached :P Jul 29 09:29:50 codyl: yes Jul 29 09:30:08 i do Jul 29 09:30:14 One line you don't want to see in your tracking. Jul 29 09:30:29 Package destroyed in controlled explosion. Jul 29 09:31:52 =) Jul 29 09:32:25 lol Jul 29 09:34:29 "..are both members of the international non-proliferation regimes. " Jul 29 09:34:46 doen't that only apply to nuclear weapons ? Jul 29 09:38:27 And missile tech. IIRC. Jul 29 09:41:38 mornin Jul 29 10:19:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ/fr]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[P1_Owners]] Jul 29 10:29:04 u Jul 29 10:52:03 hi Jul 29 11:02:55 Have I missed any kernel mode power savings in http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Neo1973_Power_Management? Jul 29 11:03:01 I've added a table up at the top. Jul 29 11:03:26 Of work required on the kernel to implement power managment, and my knowledge of its status and importance. Jul 29 11:04:08 counter Jul 29 11:04:08 (last update 2007-07-27 06:54) http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter : Order https://direct.openmoko.com/ ; Delivered prob. 75% in 2 days 12:27:53 (2.519±2.5 days) (1783;251) Jul 29 11:04:23 Hmm. Jul 29 11:04:57 Large (1W), Huge(300mW), Large(50mW), Moderate(150mW), Huge(250mW), Modest(10mW?) Jul 29 11:05:05 How come 'Large' > 'Huge'? o.0 Jul 29 11:05:07 somehow the scale doesn't seem... consistent :] Jul 29 11:07:48 moreover, I see huge twice... Jul 29 11:09:04 I need to clarify that more. Jul 29 11:09:19 hi folks Jul 29 11:09:39 Large - as though you can powersave by turning stuff off, you typically can't save much if the user is actually using the function. Jul 29 11:09:48 I can't remember, is there a 'I just got my gta01, what should I do first' page on the wiki... Jul 29 11:09:56 SpeedEvil, righto Jul 29 11:10:11 I know there's one, but from reading the mailing list it seems that quite a bit is inaccurate... Jul 29 11:10:12 ScaredyCat: Yes Jul 29 11:10:17 ScaredyCat: There's a "getting started"-page? Jul 29 11:10:27 moin Jul 29 11:10:33 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973 Jul 29 11:10:37 I know nothing of the accuracy of it Jul 29 11:10:48 hello Jul 29 11:11:00 mjr: but I probably should call it huge. Jul 29 11:11:57 yeah, I tink there was something about the initial backup stuff being pointless... Jul 29 11:12:06 Jul 29 11:13:37 and is the gps effectiely useless - since there's no binary ? Jul 29 11:14:10 Apparently. Which begs the question; anyone want to send me the gllin completely illegally and therefore evilly? Jul 29 11:14:51 But, uh, if the gllin isn't supposed to be shipped, how're we *supposed* to interact with the gps? Jul 29 11:14:58 I think I'm missing some vital part of information. :P Jul 29 11:15:17 I think it just needs to be accidentally copied to buildhost Jul 29 11:16:00 SpeedEvil, I noticed there is more than one mailbox/voicemail wiki page: [[Answering Machine]], [[Wishlist:Human_screening]] and [[Voice Mailbox]]. merge'm? Jul 29 11:16:22 If you can do it sensibly. Jul 29 11:16:53 There is also possibly some stuff in [[Category:Profile]] and [[Category:Profile]] Jul 29 11:17:06 There is also possibly some stuff in [[Category:Profile]] and [[Category:Calling Features]] Jul 29 11:22:27 yea, post that gllin anonymously on rapidshare... Jul 29 11:23:09 pir~t~bay? ;o) Jul 29 11:23:22 it's not warez Jul 29 11:23:37 actually, it is Jul 29 11:23:41 It is. Jul 29 11:23:49 It's proprietory software of Global Locate. Jul 29 11:23:53 ah Jul 29 11:24:13 (plus it's not like you can't find non-warez on piratebay if you really, really try) Jul 29 11:24:23 Is there currently no way to interact with the gps without gllin? Jul 29 11:24:29 but piratebay is that torrent site right? Jul 29 11:24:37 well, you can _interact_ with the RE tools a bit Jul 29 11:24:39 why make torrent for 200kb binary Jul 29 11:24:44 or whatever size it is Jul 29 11:24:46 but not get any locations :] Jul 29 11:24:51 daxxar - There is. We have some really, really basic tools to talk to it. Jul 29 11:25:00 However. Jul 29 11:25:05 i see a python port project on gforge, does anyone know if python works on the qemu image? Jul 29 11:25:10 there should be everything in gllin right? Jul 29 11:25:10 What's the plan for the future? Make a substitute for gllin? Jul 29 11:25:11 daxxar - But it's months away from a "position solution" Jul 29 11:25:15 The tools are so basic that it may not be possible to complete work on a driver without gllin. Jul 29 11:25:38 I certainly will need a copy at some point. Jul 29 11:25:40 well, that seems rather 'wank' Jul 29 11:25:41 Is gllin the software that has the "limitations" that makes it legal to use in the US? Jul 29 11:25:41 hrw|gone: I thought o-hand is able to setup a buildbot? Jul 29 11:25:47 daxxar: yes. Jul 29 11:26:01 daxxar, legal to export/import, apparently (IANAL) use in the US is okay Jul 29 11:26:04 daxxar: all GPS hardware does basically - apart from very rare stuff. Jul 29 11:26:20 And the code is from Global Locate that is largely a hardware vendor. Jul 29 11:26:25 So the plan is to make an opensource "driver" that replaces this? Jul 29 11:26:29 Yes. Jul 29 11:26:31 daxxar, that's the plan Jul 29 11:26:34 And has better options. Jul 29 11:26:36 Okay, thanks. Then it made more sense. Jul 29 11:26:40 Elrond: there should be everything in gllin right Jul 29 11:26:45 I thought the plan was to use the binary gps driver. :-) Jul 29 11:26:50 ynezz - What do you mean? Jul 29 11:26:51 daxxar: initially. Jul 29 11:26:52 * ScaredyCat too Jul 29 11:26:53 another plan is for FIC/OpenMoko also to ship a binary to all of us, but apparently that's not happening in this shipment... Jul 29 11:26:58 What binary software is the on the phone, except for gllin? Jul 29 11:27:02 proprietary, that is Jul 29 11:27:09 SpeedEvil: but it's not shipping Jul 29 11:27:12 Elrond: if it's working with that GPS, all features AGPS provide are implemented in gllin... Jul 29 11:27:13 daxxar: however, the OSS driver could in principle do better. Jul 29 11:27:14 (or planned to be on the phone) Jul 29 11:27:18 daxxar, nothing except the flash firmwares on other chips Jul 29 11:27:28 mjr: Right. :-) Jul 29 11:27:35 ynezz: I'm pretty sure that it doesn't - without paying GL for AGPS service. Jul 29 11:27:40 They do not do this for free. Jul 29 11:27:40 Great, so then it *will* eventually be 100% free, :-) Jul 29 11:27:47 Elrond: so if you dissasm the gllin you can get working GPS at least Jul 29 11:28:02 Elrond: ok, I can live without AGPS Jul 29 11:28:02 ynezz: it's a _big_ messy bit of code. Jul 29 11:28:25 Will the OSS driver eventually implement AGPS? Will FIC provide AGPS-servers? Jul 29 11:28:34 See [[Server:AGPS]] on the wiki Jul 29 11:28:42 ynezz - In principle yes. People are already working on this way. But disasm for ARM is a massively complex job. Jul 29 11:28:44 yes, maybe. Jul 29 11:29:07 It's [[Server:A-GPS]] btw Jul 29 11:29:12 Oh - yes. Jul 29 11:29:13 IDA do the job right Jul 29 11:29:30 ynezz - IDA is bad at OABI asm. Jul 29 11:29:43 which version? Jul 29 11:29:43 There are also potential issues with dissasembly, over simple reverse engineering. Jul 29 11:29:58 but at this stage, it'd be nice to at least be able to interact with the gps Jul 29 11:30:19 ScaredyCat - Do you mean "interact" or do you mean "get my current position"? Jul 29 11:30:21 At this stage, you need to hope that if you message someone that has one, that they'll DCC it to you. Jul 29 11:30:26 if you want positions. Jul 29 11:30:52 Elrond: "get my current position" is interaction also Jul 29 11:31:25 Hm, so I guess there's no Free Software AGPS-server software? :-) Jul 29 11:31:28 No, "get my current position" is basicly "getting info"; "interaction" means "_sending_ and receiving info". Jul 29 11:31:29 yes, position acquisition is interaction, but not all interaction is position acquisition Jul 29 11:31:37 Not yet daxxar. Jul 29 11:31:50 There are - as mentioned at that page - several options of increasing complexity. Jul 29 11:31:53 Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me, guys. Jul 29 11:31:58 Yep, I read it. :-) Jul 29 11:32:00 And increasing performance. Jul 29 11:32:04 On another topic. Jul 29 11:32:24 ScaredyCat - But anyway: For "get my current position", you either need to wait months and/or help the FOSS project. Or get gllin from some source. Jul 29 11:32:39 ok, but there is an issue with just letting people have the binary? Jul 29 11:32:50 yes, that;s my point Elrond... Jul 29 11:32:55 apparently there is Jul 29 11:32:56 it is, nobody want to share it :p Jul 29 11:33:00 :( Jul 29 11:33:06 It's copyright - just as windows is. Jul 29 11:33:21 but you guys have it Jul 29 11:33:27 my phone is coming in tomorrow, so I'm still open to anyone evil enough to share gllin with me Jul 29 11:33:45 openmoko: 03zecke * r2559 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/ (5 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Jul 29 11:33:45 openmoko: 2007-07-29 Holger Freyther Jul 29 11:33:45 openmoko: Refer to version two of the library Jul 29 11:33:45 openmoko: * configure.ac: Jul 29 11:33:45 openmoko: * libmokoui2.pc.in: Jul 29 11:33:46 openmoko: 2007-07-29 Holger Freyther Jul 29 11:33:48 openmoko: Refer to version two of this library Jul 29 11:34:58 yea 'with me', that's a point. And others? :p Jul 29 11:35:10 * SpeedEvil doesn't. Jul 29 11:35:16 So .. they didn't get licenses for the software they *need* to operate it (as far as the vendor is concerned) when they bought the hardware+ Jul 29 11:35:20 i don't care, i don't plan to use gps in near future anyway Jul 29 11:35:36 s/\+/\?/ Jul 29 11:35:46 daxxar - We simply don't know. Jul 29 11:35:46 ynezz, well, I can be evil too, you know Jul 29 11:35:59 :) Jul 29 11:36:08 Elrond: Okay, thanks. Strange. :-) Jul 29 11:36:18 daxxar: post asking on the community ML Jul 29 11:36:34 ynezz, in fact, see one of my parliamentary election photos from winter on my home page: http://mjr.iki.fi/ Jul 29 11:36:39 Yeah, I'll do that. Jul 29 11:36:40 is the sd card slot sdio? Jul 29 11:36:50 daxxar - Yes, please post and ask exaxtly that question on the community ML. Jul 29 11:36:56 the shirt says "Bad Uncle" Jul 29 11:36:56 minime: Template {{delete}} tags pages you've emptied for deletion. Also check 'what links to here' and fix first. Jul 29 11:37:10 ScaredyCat: AIUI, yes. Jul 29 11:37:23 ScaredyCat: however, the SDIO drivers may not be implemented. Jul 29 11:37:33 mjr: crazy :) Jul 29 11:37:36 :/ shame... Jul 29 11:37:47 Also - you can't put any IO cards in it. Jul 29 11:37:52 Gah! Jul 29 11:37:57 Even if you cut slots out of the case, it pokes out the wrong way. Jul 29 11:38:00 GTA02 will have Atheros' SDIO stack, since the wifi is behind that Jul 29 11:38:11 who reads that community mailing list? :p Jul 29 11:38:14 then you just need to do creative flat-cabling ;) Jul 29 11:38:24 it's more like a IRC/Chat than ML :p Jul 29 11:38:26 ynezz: the core team posts to it occasionally. Jul 29 11:38:29 openmoko: 03zecke * r2560 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-today/ (6 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed) Jul 29 11:38:29 openmoko: 2007-07-29 Holger Freyther Jul 29 11:38:29 openmoko: Use version two of the libraries. Make taku compile without libsn Jul 29 11:38:29 openmoko: * configure.ac: Jul 29 11:38:29 openmoko: * libtaku/launcher-util.c: Taco's don't need libsn. Jul 29 11:38:31 openmoko: (launcher_start): Jul 29 11:38:35 openmoko: * src/today-launcher.c: Jul 29 11:38:36 mjr: /me has thought of that. That works of course. Jul 29 11:38:41 wow, they must have some good noise filters Jul 29 11:38:48 I've even I think documented it on the [[Expansion Back]] page. Jul 29 11:39:17 Huh, what's "tacu" and libsn? Jul 29 11:39:31 yeah that expansion back is a nifty idea Jul 29 11:39:32 no idea, it didn't build Jul 29 11:39:45 http://www.spectec.com.tw/sdw823.htm Jul 29 11:39:50 Elrond: libsn is libstartup notification Jul 29 11:39:59 zecke - Ahh. Jul 29 11:40:16 Elrond: But this is a good reason to not use codenames for libraries Jul 29 11:40:29 SpeedEvil: is sdio only for I/O devices, not for memory cards? Jul 29 11:40:55 zecke: yeah, codenames like 'Fudgepacking Turtle' ... Jul 29 11:40:55 * * OM Bug 669 has been created by autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org Jul 29 11:40:55 * * libxosd-2.2.15+svn20070729-r4-do_fetch Jul 29 11:40:56 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=669 Jul 29 11:41:10 I reckon thatshould be the next ubuntu name Jul 29 11:41:16 SpeedEvil: Rapid Suspend-RAM saves only 50mW ? Jul 29 11:41:29 isn't that wrong value? Jul 29 11:41:50 and it's titled as 'Huge' saving :) Jul 29 11:42:42 Okay, sent an email to the ml now Jul 29 11:42:59 and by that 'Variable CPU clock' you mean dynticks? Jul 29 11:44:02 mickey|NeoMeetin: ping! Jul 29 11:45:05 SpeedEvil: nm, just get it, that it wasn't written by you Jul 29 11:48:24 SpeedEvil, Elrond: I hope this is the kinda post you wanted: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/008465.html Jul 29 11:52:18 nice Jul 29 11:52:46 daxxar - Well, I would have used different wording, but it will get the right discussion started anyway :-) Jul 29 11:54:03 daxxar: when you get the device, can you please tell me the total costs of importing it? Jul 29 11:58:42 ynezz: basically. The alternative is to have the phone in 'low power' mode when it's suspended. This uses some 50mW Jul 29 11:58:50 holy crap Jul 29 11:58:53 Vegar: Hum, I'm not great at remembering stuff like that, but I'll try. ;-) Jul 29 11:58:53 ynezz: this will half battery life. Jul 29 11:58:55 goodmorning all Jul 29 11:59:06 Vegar: Could you just send me an email, and I'll leave it as unread till I get the device Jul 29 11:59:14 my neo is going the *wrong way* Jul 29 11:59:18 Elrond: Okay. ;-) Jul 29 11:59:34 it's just hit Jul 29 11:59:34 KOELN (COLOGNE), Jul 29 11:59:34 DE Jul 29 11:59:42 after bing in .NL Jul 29 11:59:51 yeah, mine went to Köln as well Jul 29 12:00:00 daxxar: ah, yeah, good idea Jul 29 12:00:01 Vegar: Mine isn't scheduled to ship till 2nd batch, which means 10-15th of august, then it's shipping time, etc. Jul 29 12:00:16 bt it's destined for .nl Jul 29 12:00:23 So it'll probably be close to a month till I get the device Jul 29 12:00:25 why would it leave the country again Jul 29 12:00:28 ScaredyCat, that's weird Jul 29 12:00:40 10th-15th assumes that the next batch has been kicked off already. That hasn't been confirmed. Jul 29 12:01:01 SpeedEvil: I got an email from sales that said: "your order should be proceed when the 2nd batch of shipment arrives FICA between 8/10-15. Thanks." Jul 29 12:01:22 I think UPS tracking is what you might call 'a pile of bollocks' Jul 29 12:01:26 (That's verbatim) Jul 29 12:01:36 shipping shouldn't take long, daxxar Jul 29 12:01:42 (compared to posten) Jul 29 12:02:14 Vegar: More worried about Tollvesenet, they seem to hate me. ;-) Jul 29 12:02:22 oh, yeah Jul 29 12:02:33 I have what you call a .. history with them. :-P Jul 29 12:02:39 hehe Jul 29 12:02:45 SpeedEvil: ah, so it's bad column title for that 50mW then, should be somehting like 'Power consumption' and not 'Saving' Jul 29 12:02:46 I wonder how much they'd want Jul 29 12:02:49 daxxar: what number are you? Jul 29 12:03:05 mjr: http://www.pastebin.ca/637947 Jul 29 12:03:10 ynezz: I'm trying to work out an appropriate column title. Jul 29 12:03:20 SpeedEvil: #2233 Jul 29 12:03:23 nice Jul 29 12:03:34 It's something like "Approximate total impact on battery life over not having this mode but having the other modes". Jul 29 12:04:05 For example - Tickless kernel only saves power when the CPU is active. Jul 29 12:04:54 hm, I thought it's oposite :p Jul 29 12:05:12 If the system is in suspend-RAM mode, it doesn't. Jul 29 12:05:19 ah Jul 29 12:05:22 true Jul 29 12:05:53 well, good luck with that table then :) Jul 29 12:06:03 And variable voltage only saves significant amounts when the CPU clockspeed can be varied. Jul 29 12:06:29 And most of it is overwhelmed in many use-cases by the huge power draw of the screen. Jul 29 12:06:59 SpeedEvil: does the screen have a low-res power save mode? Jul 29 12:07:09 couldn't the screen be turned off while not being looked at? Jul 29 12:08:07 it should be Jul 29 12:08:54 then you've to use some button/event to power it on Jul 29 12:09:05 definately should be, but still, i knew of some controller cards that would halve the screen res in a special "low power mode" and work like that till it got the signal to switch Jul 29 12:09:38 daxxar: mail sent Jul 29 12:09:50 Vegar: Great Jul 29 12:09:59 ynezz: shake to wake Jul 29 12:10:22 * CoreDump|home _lives_ in cologne ;) Jul 29 12:10:51 * ScaredyCat suspects CoreDump|home is being a ups driver for the day Jul 29 12:10:52 ;P Jul 29 12:11:14 nah, I already got a neo ;) Jul 29 12:11:19 The backlight is the killer. Jul 29 12:11:28 The screen is totally invisible with no backlight. Jul 29 12:11:43 And the CPU has to be awake at moderately high speed to run the display controller. (in P1) Jul 29 12:11:58 Touchscreen interrupts are supported. Jul 29 12:12:29 Hm. But won't a touchscreen interrupt constantly trigger if you e.g. have it in your pocket? Jul 29 12:12:37 It should have a 'hold' button like mp3-players have. ;P Jul 29 12:12:49 yes, you can turn it off. Jul 29 12:12:53 The interrupt Jul 29 12:12:55 didn't we go through this... Jul 29 12:12:59 and make it so you have to press a button Jul 29 12:13:08 tap sequence to wake it Jul 29 12:13:12 the aux button can wake the CPU too. Jul 29 12:13:13 Not possible. Jul 29 12:13:16 Ah, yes, the buttons can wake it Jul 29 12:13:18 Tap sequence that is. Jul 29 12:13:29 Tap sequence implies that the CPU is in slow mode. Jul 29 12:13:35 Yeah, because a tap sequence would need processing to verify, which means woken CPU? Jul 29 12:13:38 This will lead to 2 day battery life in 'off' Jul 29 12:14:02 Or alternatively it means rapid suspend-RAM resume, which will use a moderate amount of power per wake. Jul 29 12:14:04 aux-button waking even works in P0. Jul 29 12:15:02 In principle - the battery life in suspend-RAM, liostening for calls should be more like 5 days. Jul 29 12:15:31 Maybe a hair more. Jul 29 12:17:25 Regarding Sean's most recent post to community, what's is a SLA? Jul 29 12:17:52 I know it's "Service Level Agreement" in the service industry, but that doesn't make much sense here Jul 29 12:18:01 Software Licensing Agreement= Jul 29 12:18:02 ? Jul 29 12:19:00 mabe he means nda Jul 29 12:19:44 Perhaos Jul 29 12:20:12 good news is that it looks like we'll get it Jul 29 12:20:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[P1_Owners]] [[SH1]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Voice_Mailbox]] [[OpenMoko2008]] [[OpenMoko2007.2]] [[Main_Page]] Jul 29 12:22:13 yep Jul 29 12:22:45 Ahh, great. Jul 29 12:23:12 although... he does say 'very soon' whcih in terms of FIC timescales is probably 6 months Jul 29 12:23:52 :) Jul 29 12:24:12 *G* Jul 29 12:25:20 huhu Jul 29 12:27:02 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: GPS driver (gllin) licensing question Jul 29 12:28:40 Hm, aloril as started reporting ml-posts? Jul 29 12:28:47 Slightly delayed ;-P Jul 29 12:28:50 (or greylisted) Jul 29 12:29:21 only from FIC bods methinks Jul 29 12:29:30 Aha. Jul 29 12:34:54 yeah, it's always done that, but only from out beloved insiders Jul 29 13:09:02 yay, my phone is in my city! Jul 29 13:09:14 heh... what city?? Jul 29 13:09:23 i've got a chloroform rag with your name alll over it :-D Jul 29 13:09:48 hi Jul 29 13:10:08 in the Netherlands, seems to have flown directly to Eindhoven, not via Amsterdam/Schiphol :) Jul 29 13:10:30 Kero: damn it, i'm in the USA and i don't think my flight will get ther eon time Jul 29 13:10:42 Placid: hey there Jul 29 13:21:09 somedays... i would kill for a 10K rpm laptop hard drive Jul 29 13:22:30 BryceLeo: Somedays... a 10K rpm laptop drive would kill you for locking it up in there without cooling ;) Jul 29 13:22:50 abraxa_: hahahahaha ok ok, i'll give you that one Jul 29 13:24:14 Can I have a neo instead? Jul 29 13:24:35 lol, not till i get mine! Jul 29 13:24:41 =( Jul 29 13:24:50 haha i'm terribly cruel i know Jul 29 13:25:03 abraxa_: have you gotten minimo to build for arm yet? Jul 29 13:25:22 Let me answer that question by asking what minimo is Jul 29 13:25:51 minimo is pretty much gecko (mozilla rendering engine) wrapped up for embedded devices Jul 29 13:26:10 and developed for win mobile Jul 29 13:26:19 Oh, I see Jul 29 13:26:31 also in the OE tree and compiles/runs for x86 Jul 29 13:27:24 i can't tell if the screen shot here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Minimo is them running a qemu x86 env or the arm one, and if its the arm one i'd love to know how to patch minimo to get it tow rok Jul 29 13:27:25 imho it's much more interesting to see the progress of GdkLauncher Jul 29 13:28:07 ahhh, i'm not too big of a webkit fan Jul 29 13:29:02 well, it renders good and fast without eating all your memory :) Jul 29 13:29:15 gecko/firefox performs very bad on all my machines Jul 29 13:29:48 thomasg_: see i've never had a problem with gecko/firefox and webkit always feels so much slower to me Jul 29 13:30:11 lol, then again "feel" and actuality are sometimes 2 different things Jul 29 13:30:21 but you are right firefox eats memory voraciously Jul 29 13:30:59 * zecke is amused Jul 29 13:31:21 give links2 the possitiblity to render the sites as good as webkit and as fast as links2 and this would be my browser ^^ Jul 29 13:31:26 BryceLeo: If you get around to working on the openembedded / bitbake crash source wiki today, I'll be looking for it and ready to give it a try. Jul 29 13:32:23 arcanericky: haha i'm working on it right now actually, however i'm having problems building my flashing my local qemu Jul 29 13:33:02 arcanericky: as soon as i get a reasonable beta of it up i'll give an irc shout out for beta testers Jul 29 13:33:18 thomasg_: links2 is killer fast Jul 29 13:33:33 thomasg_: I am a big dillo fan, but it doesn't handle the web2.0 crap too well Jul 29 13:33:36 BryceLeo, yeah, it is. but I guess one of the reasons for this is the basic rendering Jul 29 13:33:42 BL: Ok. I'm past the CLI hello world and have a gdk app I built by hand and moved over to my neo to run. Ready for the next step - to integrate it with the build environment. Jul 29 13:34:11 arcanericky: good to hear! Jul 29 13:34:56 BL: Until then, any suggestions where to start? Just start reading at openembedded.org and see how it fits with the openmoko environment? Jul 29 13:35:30 arcanericky: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/Using_a_local_overlay http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Create_a_package_from_existing_sources Jul 29 13:36:25 BL: Thanks. Been reading through those. Guess it's time to actually apply it. Just worried about cratering my build environment and having to start from scratch. Took a day or two to build everything the first time around! Jul 29 13:38:18 arcanericky: don't be afraid of mokomakefile it's an awesome tool and very powerful, it's my suggested way to build you environment Jul 29 13:38:32 arcanericky: what distro are you on? Jul 29 13:38:49 Ubuntu Jul 29 13:39:04 arcanericky: ahh ok Jul 29 13:39:41 so it won't be too bad to re-build with mokomakefile Jul 29 13:40:23 I've used mokomakefile to set everything up and update everything every day. I guess if I have to rebuild, I'll just turn it lose and go back to finding bugs on my neo. Jul 29 13:40:28 The thing that caught me out with bitbake was understanding that it has to pull the source from somewhere, and that somewhere isn't your local filesystem. So you need a subversion server, or a webserver with the files tared up Jul 29 13:41:01 Once I realised that bitbake was not going to pay any attention to the files I had on my filesystem it all started to make more sense Jul 29 13:41:39 Yea - I noticed that about bitbake. I don't understand why it doesn't use a file:/// url so you can use files on your local system (like subversion). I'm ok though - have both a web server and svn repos set up anyway. Jul 29 13:41:43 arcanericky: mokomakefile isn't too terribly slow Jul 29 13:43:04 arcanericky: I think you can set up file:// with the SRC_URI but I'm not sure what the complete syntax is. It seems that you cannot just point it at a directory, for example. Also I'm not sure what the file URI is relative to Jul 29 13:43:12 If you have SVN repos then it should be pretty easy to get going Jul 29 13:43:19 I have managed it, so shout if you get stuck Jul 29 13:45:16 Is there any tutorial on "how to start your own application for openmoko"-thing? (regarding the whole structure of things) Jul 29 13:45:26 daxxar: i'm working on it right now Jul 29 13:45:37 Grrreat Jul 29 13:45:43 I probably won't dev till I get the hw, but still Jul 29 13:46:09 daxxar: haha that's cool Jul 29 13:46:13 Thanks all. When all these bits of dev documentation start to come together would be nice if we (I?) could have a wiki that takes a person step by step through learning the process. Ex: simple command line program,simple gdk program, then integration with oe/bb. little pieces at a time so we can get a lot of others dev'ing. Jul 29 13:46:58 arcanericky: Just use the current wiki, and make an "Index"-page and group them in categories Jul 29 13:47:25 arcanericky: that's sort of what i'm working on, but i'm not gonna teach people how to code, that's up to them! It will have taking a basic application idea, creating a local overlay, then building and adding that app to the rootfs Jul 29 13:47:36 SpeedEvil - Any idea, why the integration time is in units of (1/3928.77) sec ? Jul 29 13:47:54 BryceLeo: But I think the openmoko-specific stuff could be relevant. Jul 29 13:48:06 arcanericky: it'll also have a tarball with shell script to take a vanilla mokomakefile build env and setitup with a basic gdk hello-world app Jul 29 13:48:07 And perhaps some of the gtk-stuff. Jul 29 13:48:24 daxxar: i guess, i may do that later,but to start the app will be a simple hello world Jul 29 13:48:35 SpeedEvil - Hmm, okay... 3928.77 +/- 5.803... so 3928 ;o) Jul 29 13:48:38 daxxar: i'll include a button for ya! Jul 29 13:48:46 Of course. :-) Jul 29 13:48:47 Yay! Jul 29 13:49:02 lol Jul 29 13:49:44 hmmm... i wish i had a deciated server somewhere i could set up a git repo to pull it from *ponders* Jul 29 13:49:49 BL: I agree - don't need to teach to code or teach about gdk. Assume a base knowledge and go from there. Jul 29 13:50:07 does anyone know how details UPS is with their tracking on international shipments? Jul 29 13:50:46 slicehost.com - very good xen servers, av great prices. aimed towards developers Jul 29 13:50:50 like is it pickup,depot,airport,plane,airport,depot,delivered or just collected,delivered Jul 29 13:51:06 daxxar: So for the current wiki - maybe at some point take the "hello world" page and recreate it using steps. Ex: direct the reader to using mokomakefile, then direct the reader to a hello world cli page, then to a gdk hello world page, then on to BL's crash course on how to fit it all together with oe/bb. Jul 29 13:51:09 arcanericky: i would like to get as many people started as possible, i man my goal is to get anyone and everyone started building and including apps, and hopefully retain like 1% of them as steady devs Jul 29 13:51:43 daxxar: arcanericky mine's actually pulling from all of those, so soon my should be able to replace the lot of them Jul 29 13:52:46 I don't know if I can ever stay on as a steady dev, but as someone with 20 yrs c programming experience, I want very much to stay involved with how the process flows, contrib bug fixes, testing, etc. Anything where I can be of use a couple hours a week. Jul 29 13:53:04 BryceLeo: we can add a 'make hello-world' target to MokoMakefile Jul 29 13:53:34 There's an idea! Having a hello world target as an integrated example would be awesome! Jul 29 13:53:35 rwhitby: hmm..... we could do that Jul 29 13:54:29 BTW, if you have any suggestions or patches for MokoMakefile, don't hesitate to ping me. Jul 29 13:54:30 rwhitby: btw. i absolutely love your mokomakefile work, killer idea dude Jul 29 13:54:53 BryceLeo: You need a git repo? Jul 29 13:55:21 daxxar: not yet, i'm still pondering, but if i do you'll be the first person i ask! Jul 29 13:55:23 Kero: You're lucky.. Jul 29 13:55:49 BryceLeo: create a hello-world project at projects.openmoko.org and svn checkout from there? Jul 29 13:55:56 BryceLeo: I can't get you a dedi, but I've been meaning to set up my own git repo on a server I have, and I don't mind setting up one for you if you need it. Jul 29 13:56:15 daxxar: awesome that sounds good Jul 29 13:56:16 BryceLeo: what volume of net traffic for the repo? Jul 29 13:56:38 rwhitby: that's a great idea, hahaha it'll probably take a couple days to get accepted though Jul 29 13:56:43 As for the hello world target, also how about a 'skeleton' setup. Where one can take a sort of target skeleton and move it around to use as a new target. Jul 29 13:56:59 DukeOfURL: i really don't know yet, it's still forming in my head, and i don't know the demand yet Jul 29 13:57:06 k Jul 29 13:57:23 DukeOfURL: thank you very much for the offer though Jul 29 13:57:33 I have hosted servers in Denver Jul 29 13:58:29 rwhitby: where should we send patches? i've got a really simple one Jul 29 13:58:45 For a data point, there have been 1146 unique IP downloads of the MokoMakefile since November last year. Jul 29 13:58:54 DukeOfURL: wow, that's awesome, if i need it you'll definately be on my mind! Jul 29 13:59:02 BryceLeo: best way is to pastebin them, then ping me here. Jul 29 13:59:13 rwhitby: k it's on it's way Jul 29 14:00:02 BL: Don't lose too much focus on your tutorial! :) Jul 29 14:00:06 rwhitby: http://pastebin.com/d3f63f65 Jul 29 14:00:10 arcanericky: haha i wont Jul 29 14:00:24 rwhitby: it just adds keyboard support for when you run-qemu Jul 29 14:02:34 BryceLeo: should that be added to all three places where qemu is executed? Jul 29 14:02:58 anybody confirm how well the gps works indoors (or go a gllin so I could try myself)? Jul 29 14:03:22 Writchie: Elrond can Jul 29 14:04:13 rwhitby: actually probably so, i usually only go through "make run-qemu" but yes Jul 29 14:04:29 including the run-qemu-vnc target? Jul 29 14:04:47 rwhitby: no i personally wouldn't add it to that one Jul 29 14:05:16 BryceLeo: that's what I figured Jul 29 14:06:46 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r103 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added -usbdevice keyboard to the console qemu run targets. Thx to BryceLeo. Jul 29 14:07:18 woohoO! i'm famous! Jul 29 14:07:42 abraxa_ - What can I? Jul 29 14:07:56 No! I'm BruceLeo Jul 29 14:08:00 abraxa_ - Ahh. Jul 29 14:08:01 :) Jul 29 14:08:09 BruceLeo2: lol :-P Jul 29 14:08:11 BryceLeo: in openmoko, everyone can be famous. Jul 29 14:08:39 I can't even spell my own nick Jul 29 14:08:51 Elrond: Have you looked at gps performance indoors? Jul 29 14:09:00 rwhitby: that sounds good to me, heck i might be able to get this as credit as an internship, damn collegegs with their stupid rules Jul 29 14:09:12 ScaredyCat: worse things have happend! Jul 29 14:09:16 Writchie - P0+gllin (the whole combination!) is somewhat less performant indoors than a "commercial sirf3 with patch antenna" (whole thing!). Jul 29 14:09:58 Writchie - The commercial sirf3 is a "garmin nuvi 350". Jul 29 14:10:06 gotcha Jul 29 14:10:20 BryceLeo: yeah, someone just added dodgy stuff breaking usbdevice keyboard to the console qemu run targets Jul 29 14:10:40 Writchie - an FOSS hammerhead driver might get better performance. Jul 29 14:10:53 ScaredyCat: lol it's better than having to use that awful OSK Jul 29 14:10:56 i would expect Jul 29 14:11:07 _might_. Jul 29 14:11:11 BryceLeo: yeah, ok you win on that one.. Jul 29 14:11:21 ScaredyCat: lol i figured so Jul 29 14:11:32 Elrond: at least position error Jul 29 14:11:53 Elrond: first it must work Jul 29 14:12:07 that the hard part :) Jul 29 14:12:16 noon - Yeah, I know. Jul 29 14:13:11 any body willing to part with a gllin (for my two 1973's) Jul 29 14:13:14 Elrond: it's about 1/3 of the time of a 'symbol' - the 1ms PRN. Jul 29 14:13:14 Writchie: are you just a 'user' or do you want to write code for the gps? Jul 29 14:13:24 Writchie - Well, I have not tested position error between the two. I just tested, how well they get a fix at least. Jul 29 14:13:25 code Jul 29 14:13:36 Writchie: you mean in exchange for ? Jul 29 14:13:36 Elrond: which is a reasonable guess as to the absolute minimum time you might get a signal. Jul 29 14:14:02 SpeedEvil - More like 1/4? :) Jul 29 14:14:24 Well - yes :) Jul 29 14:14:28 at minimum i can test things that require two neos and local precise data Jul 29 14:14:41 Writchie: how well are your arm-assembler skills? Jul 29 14:14:48 SpeedEvil - Hmm, so that's about 250 "chip-bits", right? Jul 29 14:14:48 very good Jul 29 14:14:56 but the gsm is my priority Jul 29 14:15:19 Elrond: around that. Jul 29 14:15:50 Elrond: it's somewhere near what you might get a signal with with a good antenna. Jul 29 14:15:54 gnuplot> print 1024000 / w Jul 29 14:15:54 260.641577235172 Jul 29 14:17:43 rwhitby: you still around Jul 29 14:18:56 BryceLeo: yep Jul 29 14:19:55 SpeedEvil - I'm just sorting the integration times on cold2.log to see, what the minimum used there is. Jul 29 14:20:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Application_Devleopment_Crash_Course]] [[P1_Owners]] Jul 29 14:20:34 rwhitby: when you're creating your own openmoko package a common task is to "bitbake task-base -crebuild" and i've just spliced it into my openmoko-devel-image, but I don't think that that's too good a spot for it. But it would be nice to have it in the makefile, any ideas? Jul 29 14:22:29 rwhitby: but at the same time i don't think that it deserves its own target Jul 29 14:23:10 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r104 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added the rebuild-package-% target. Thx to BryceLeo for the idea. Jul 29 14:23:15 BryceLeo: 'make rebuild-package-task-base' will now do that. Jul 29 14:23:30 rwhitby: sweet that's perfect! Jul 29 14:23:43 rwhitby: thanks dude that's going to make life tons easier Jul 29 14:23:52 BryceLeo - Shouldn't that be "Application Development Crash Course" in the wiki? Jul 29 14:24:18 Elrond: it's coming i'm currently working on it Jul 29 14:24:30 did i spell something wrong? Jul 29 14:24:32 oh shit Jul 29 14:24:36 *sigh* Jul 29 14:24:46 * BryceLeo hangs head Jul 29 14:24:49 Elrond: why do you think they are integration times? Minimum poll time after they happen by the software? Jul 29 14:24:51 * BryceLeo has lost all credibility Jul 29 14:25:02 Elrond: thank you for that Jul 29 14:26:02 SpeedEvil - Are you on the sphyrna-devel list? Then I'll post an explanation of what I did there (for the others anyway)? Jul 29 14:26:06 yes. Jul 29 14:26:26 I got the confirmation at least. Jul 29 14:26:41 SpeedEvil - Short story: I varied it and tested how long one shot took. ;o) Jul 29 14:27:06 Elrond: where is the sphyrna-devel list? Jul 29 14:27:14 * SpeedEvil now has rigged up the 80cm dish for GPS testing stuff, and dug out the reel of coax, so I can play with a satellite that moves 100m back and forth. Jul 29 14:27:18 rwhitby - On projects.linuxtogo.org Jul 29 14:27:25 rwhitby linked off the hammerhead page Jul 29 14:27:32 [[Hammerhead/Protocol]] Jul 29 14:27:50 Now, all I need is the neo. Jul 29 14:28:06 SpeedEvil: how far from you is it now? Jul 29 14:28:27 Well - I'm sort of part of a group buy, so that's hard to say. Jul 29 14:31:20 California -> in transit to Philidelphia. Jul 29 14:31:34 does somebody know, where I have to put the themefiles when i build the openmoko apps for my lokal ia32/debian box? Jul 29 14:31:42 28th at 4AM - going to UK. Jul 29 14:31:54 you in china? Jul 29 14:32:06 United Kingdom. Jul 29 14:32:11 rwhitby++ Jul 29 14:32:26 SpeedEvil: well it's going the right way, mine left .nl and headed to .de Jul 29 14:32:26 But then you all know that already :-) Jul 29 14:32:28 :/ Jul 29 14:33:12 Where are you ScaredyCat ? Jul 29 14:33:21 noiddd: China is not quite the China police state yet, but give us a couple more years. Jul 29 14:33:31 s/China/UK/ Jul 29 14:33:31 Morglet meant: noiddd: UK is not quite the China police state yet, but give us a couple more years. Jul 29 14:33:34 atm in th euk, but my neo is supposed to go to .nl.. Jul 29 14:33:51 * rwhitby notices it's midnight. night all, I'm off to bed. Jul 29 14:33:52 Odd. Jul 29 14:33:55 ScaredyCat, why did you leave .nl for .de? Jul 29 14:34:05 SpeedEvil:yes Jul 29 14:34:05 rwhitby: haha it's 10am here! night Jul 29 14:34:06 I'm starting to wonder if there will be the next presidential election in the US. All the pieces are in place for a power grab. Jul 29 14:34:11 the tracking is mad.. Jul 29 14:34:19 * SpeedEvil throws a stuffed 8 times real-size plush model of a neo at rwhitby to use as a pillow. Jul 29 14:34:22 phrozen77: I didn't my neo did Jul 29 14:34:31 noon: Usually you put a reference to the theme in your user's gtkrc Jul 29 14:34:32 ah :P Jul 29 14:34:55 SpeedEvil: I know how to sew and I could in fact make one of those... Jul 29 14:35:06 noon: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo#Set_your_theme_to_OpenMoko Jul 29 14:35:10 SpeedEvil: I'm closely watching the Treo650 gsmd progress ... Jul 29 14:35:21 noiddd: I predict a worldwide civil war of "The People versus The Politicians" before long. Jul 29 14:35:21 * noiddd has been building puppets reciently. http://www.puppetaccess.com (Episode 1 is better than episode 2) Jul 29 14:35:35 rwhitby: Don't know of it - smartphone? Jul 29 14:35:56 noiddd: my wife makes bear and animals.. Jul 29 14:36:03 SpeedEvil: a pretty good smartphone too Jul 29 14:36:31 Having more devices for OM would be nice. Jul 29 14:36:38 she's made me loads of tux's a devil, a blowfish and a set of those things from the vauxhaul ads Jul 29 14:36:39 http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?Requester=UPSHome&loc=en_US&HTMLVersion=5.0&tracknum=1Z5VX0386649478929 Jul 29 14:36:42 i dont get it Jul 29 14:36:44 * ewon is connected to the intarweb through one of those 3G usb modem things Jul 29 14:36:45 where is my neo now? Jul 29 14:36:46 SpeedEvil: it is the benchmark of useability of a smartphone that I hold the Neo up against (the Neo fails, cause it doesn't have a hardware keyboard, so will not be useful for sending one-handed email replies while standing on a crowded bus) Jul 29 14:36:49 ssh is useable Jul 29 14:36:54 is it in cologne or is it in loisville? Jul 29 14:36:58 rwhitby: Ah. Jul 29 14:37:21 SpeedEvil - You sell those monster plush neos? ;o) Jul 29 14:37:36 No :) Jul 29 14:37:44 rwhitby: +1 amen Jul 29 14:38:10 * SpeedEvil contemplates an 8* neo with an integrated 22" touchscreen. Jul 29 14:38:21 borg_: seems similar to mine... Jul 29 14:38:24 You'd need shoulder straps, to wear it as a backpack. Jul 29 14:38:37 ScaredyCat: but where is it now? Jul 29 14:38:48 yours or mine? Jul 29 14:38:49 Integrated terabyte RAID. Jul 29 14:38:49 i thought it was in cologne allready Jul 29 14:38:57 mine appears to be heading your way Jul 29 14:39:05 and then it says DEPARTURE SCAN in loisville Jul 29 14:39:12 yeah. Jul 29 14:39:13 SpeedEvil - *LOL* Jul 29 14:39:33 SpeedEvil: so a pair of 1TB disks then? Jul 29 14:39:38 SpeedEvil - With Pb-car-style battery? ;o) Jul 29 14:39:46 abraxa_: thanks Jul 29 14:39:56 borg_: http://www.pastebin.ca/637947 Jul 29 14:39:57 Elrond: Naah. Li-ion is the only way to go. Jul 29 14:41:05 mh Jul 29 14:41:25 ScaredyCat: you dont have this "PACKAGE DATA PROCESSED" in cologne i have 2 times Jul 29 14:41:52 borg_: no, I have that for .NL which is where it's supposed to be going Jul 29 14:42:15 but it seems to be going the wrong way Jul 29 14:42:21 omg :) Jul 29 14:44:15 Can anyone comment on LED drivers in the kernel? Jul 29 14:45:54 Elrond: I think the use the Pb battery still in cars because of the high current they need to start the engine. li-ion battries are ... fragile Jul 29 14:47:36 noon: Li-ion batts are the closest things we have to WMD ... ;-) Jul 29 14:49:03 wmd? Jul 29 14:49:12 weapons of mass destruction Jul 29 14:49:17 i think Jul 29 14:49:26 BryceLeo: How about explaining what a local overlay is? I see I need to create one, but what is it and why is it needed? Jul 29 14:49:31 Morglet - BTW: Cool to see you back in here! :-)) Jul 29 14:49:40 Li-ion batteries are expensive compared to Pb, power for power. Jul 29 14:56:10 Elrond: Hi El. :-) Not really back as such, commissioning 8-core Xeons atm, don't really have time to think about mobiles. :-) How's it going? Jul 29 14:56:55 Morglet - People have bought many,many Neos. ;-) And are now plaing around like mad. ;-) Jul 29 14:57:34 Morglet - And I'm kicking the gps chip around. Giving it all sorts of bytes and looking at its output/timing. Jul 29 14:58:18 Elrond: very cool, I'll get back here some time. :-) Is the chip making any sort of sense yet? Jul 29 14:59:30 Hmm. P2 loses a speaker, becoming mono. Jul 29 14:59:51 Morglet: limited. Jul 29 14:59:51 SpeedEvil: but the socket is still stereo? Jul 29 15:00:05 Morglet: One speaker has gone, to make room for Wifi. Jul 29 15:00:36 the headset still supports it. Jul 29 15:00:39 As does BT Jul 29 15:00:45 Good Jul 29 15:01:04 Huh, no stereo on P2? :-| Jul 29 15:01:07 No. Jul 29 15:01:10 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/008458.html Jul 29 15:01:30 Hello SpeedEvil ;) Jul 29 15:01:56 Meh, wish there was a way to get MokoMakefile to ignore -j-flag Jul 29 15:02:39 On the upside. Jul 29 15:02:50 The buttons have unspecified LEDs behind them. Jul 29 15:03:17 And are of course translucent. Jul 29 15:04:05 arcanericky: ooh that's a good idea, i'll definately have to do that Jul 29 15:04:19 The iPhone must be like the Tardis, larger on the inside than the outside. Jul 29 15:04:46 hope the LED is connected to charger and doesn't need device to be up Jul 29 15:05:47 SpeedEvil - The translucent buttons were expectable since months. :-) Jul 29 15:06:15 (and the LEDs) Jul 29 15:06:23 Expectable - yes. Jul 29 15:06:35 _very_ expectable. :-) Jul 29 15:06:37 It would have been sort-of-nice to be informed of this stuff. Jul 29 15:07:13 Harald asked one engineer to look after translucent buttons months ago. ;-) Jul 29 15:07:37 i think they never heard of design review Jul 29 15:07:42 Indeed. Jul 29 15:08:05 maybe hardware guys are 100% open hardware Jul 29 15:08:12 Adding INHERIT += "rm_work" will make the build process take longer on later builds, right? Jul 29 15:08:34 daxxar: yes Jul 29 15:08:37 daxxar: Definately Jul 29 15:08:45 daxxar: it'll save a bunch of space though Jul 29 15:08:45 * daxxar leaves it out of his config Jul 29 15:08:46 daxxar: makes every build take 24 hours :-) Jul 29 15:08:54 As they say, space is cheap. Jul 29 15:08:56 noiddd: you lie!! 36 hours! Jul 29 15:08:59 How big is the output image, btw? Jul 29 15:09:01 rm_work has no effect on later builds Jul 29 15:09:10 BryceLeo: I think I'll just leave you alone and let you write. Later (if you don't mind) when I get a chance to go through it, maybe as I work through it we can work those little things out - I can help write instead of just being bossy. Jul 29 15:09:18 10TB daxxar Jul 29 15:09:22 :-P Jul 29 15:09:35 Uhm, so who should i listen to? ;-P Jul 29 15:09:38 32129024 for my latest jffs image (yesterdays build) Jul 29 15:09:49 either a package is not rebuild, or it's PV changes and it's built from scratch anyway. In either case, rm_work has no effect on the time for a later build. Jul 29 15:09:53 arcanericky: i certainly welcome all the help, alot of this stuff i don't think to explain so it's good to have a diff perspective Jul 29 15:10:04 I still think an open phone should be modular, like I said several months ago. A backbone that you pin things you want on, and a shell to cover it all. Construct the phone you want, and upgrade only one piece at a time. :-) Jul 29 15:10:07 my buildroot is currently sitting at 9337284k Jul 29 15:10:11 I just built it on my laptop in <5 mins daxxar Jul 29 15:10:22 arcanericky: if you'd like to email suggestions to me just send them to Bryce.Leo at the ever so fricking popular gmail Jul 29 15:10:23 after the first build Jul 29 15:10:32 I meant the actual image, not the development directory. :-) Jul 29 15:10:33 and I have rm_work Jul 29 15:10:33 (rm_work doesn't touch the stamps dir) Jul 29 15:10:37 ScaredyCat: Right. Thanks. Jul 29 15:10:44 Morglet: You can't. Jul 29 15:10:44 rwhitby: Thanks. :-) Jul 29 15:10:52 Morglet: connectors are a significant volume. Jul 29 15:10:53 So there really isn't a good reason to not use rm_work? Jul 29 15:11:09 SpeedEvil: the word "impossible" does not exist in my voicabulary. Jul 29 15:11:14 daxxar: the only reason not to use it is if you are debugging a package or developing a new package Jul 29 15:11:21 Morglet: Making things integer sizes to fit together is ecpensive in terms of volume and cost. Jul 29 15:11:24 BryceLeo: I'll definitely do that. I'll let you work through it and then I'll go over it and let you know what goes through my head as a read/learn. I'm sure you'll end up with a nice course. Jul 29 15:11:29 Morglet: did you see the stackable backs idea? Jul 29 15:11:32 Morglet: you need a better dictionary. Jul 29 15:11:33 If I'm developing a new package (which I will be eventually), can I disable rm_work for my package? Jul 29 15:11:37 And what is in the temp-dir? Jul 29 15:11:38 arcanericky: awesome sounds good dude Jul 29 15:11:46 The directory-structure that your package populates? Jul 29 15:11:58 SpeedEvil: no, you simply need to be an engineer who sees problems as challanges, instead of as a defeatist. Jul 29 15:12:01 Morglet: Making it modular will add volume, make it more unreliable, more expensive, and more heavy. Jul 29 15:12:29 daxxar: yes, you can set rm_work on a package basis, but I don't remember how - you'd need to ask in #oe Jul 29 15:12:39 Okay, no biggie, I'm not developing yet. Jul 29 15:12:44 I'll look into it when the need arises. Jul 29 15:13:20 Morglet: No, you need to be aware of what is possible with current technology. Modules have to have a connector. They have to have some holding mechanism to integrate them into the phone. They have to be designed into integer spaces. Jul 29 15:13:43 SpeedEvil: none of which is a problem. Jul 29 15:13:55 With a PCB, you can juggle things round flexibly, in order to make room. Jul 29 15:14:15 No, if you don't want your phone to be as light as others on the market, it's not. Jul 29 15:14:18 And as small. Jul 29 15:14:31 If you are willing to let it bulk up, these things become easy. Jul 29 15:14:53 The one and only tradeoff is price. Yes, to be as small and light as a non-modular phone, it will cost more. That's fair. Jul 29 15:15:23 any people with a device in here? Jul 29 15:15:34 i've got a question about the physical screen Jul 29 15:15:58 BryceLeo: sorry, my two are 15km away - I can ssh into them, but not see the screen. Jul 29 15:16:04 rwhitby: What's in the temp-dir that rm_work removes? Jul 29 15:16:15 daxxar: the build Jul 29 15:16:19 Morglet: Have you ever constructed electronic devices? Jul 29 15:16:35 rwhitby: have you gotten to actually hold them? i'm curious about how it feels with the screen not being recessed. and is the lcm a bit spongy and feel like it's gonna break if kept in a busy pocket Jul 29 15:16:37 Morglet - I suggested a dell-style modell at that time: Let the cusomer choose the included modules. ;-) Jul 29 15:16:39 BryceLeo: what? Jul 29 15:16:45 * rwhitby really goes to bed this time ... Jul 29 15:16:45 BL: I have a device here. I may need to be walked through what you might need. Jul 29 15:16:55 SpeedEvil: yep, EE here. So what's your point, or just going for the personal attacks immediately? Jul 29 15:16:57 The screen is recessed - a bit. Jul 29 15:17:00 BryceLeo: The screen is recessed. Jul 29 15:17:06 is mosko around? Jul 29 15:17:07 arcanericky: ohh ok, how much? 1mm? Jul 29 15:17:12 BryceLeo: Quite significantly, actually. It looks very well protected. Jul 29 15:17:13 BryceLeo: got two devices what to you need? Jul 29 15:17:20 Yes, about 1mm, from memory. Jul 29 15:17:21 SpeedEvil is correct; the number one problem with current hardware is connectors, which makes modular design difficult. Jul 29 15:17:38 Morglet: no - I'm wondering what baseline you are coming from. At the moment, going modular will add _significant_ cost. And possibly reliability problems. Jul 29 15:17:44 BL: Maybe 1-2mm? The corners aren't _too_ hard to get at. Jul 29 15:17:53 There's also a large chunk of foam behind the LCD internally, IIRC. Jul 29 15:17:59 wow, you guys are good, i was just curious about how far the screen recessed, does anyone know if the backer for the screen is glass or poly carbonate? Jul 29 15:18:00 Many of which could be better addressed by different phone models. Jul 29 15:18:09 BryceLeo: glass. Jul 29 15:18:11 So I imagine it's pretty much impossible to break the TFT by dropping it. Jul 29 15:18:32 BryceLeo: the LCM is glass, which has a thin plastic layer over it which forms the touchscreen. Jul 29 15:18:59 recess looks to be about 1.5mm Jul 29 15:19:02 cjb: unfortunately not - a major problem is the case flexing and unevenly loading the LCM as it's dropped. Jul 29 15:19:02 cjb: I've dropped mine from 1.5m onto concrete pavement and it survived. Jul 29 15:19:03 What does LCM stand for? Jul 29 15:19:10 SpeedEvil: yes, you're probably right. But when you frame things as "impossible", you get the reaction you got. They're not impossible, it's just engineering tradeoffs, which boil down to money. Jul 29 15:19:11 Liquid Crystal Module Jul 29 15:19:11 rwhitby: haha, sweet. Jul 29 15:19:29 awesome, that's what i've been looking to hear Jul 29 15:19:35 not always money Jul 29 15:19:44 rwhitby: You should post that to one of the lists :) Jul 29 15:20:20 so it's worth it to save up and get one for myself, it just looked like the screen was not recesed and since it's not capacative touch i was worried about shattering it (did that with a treo 600) Jul 29 15:20:24 Morglet: I still say it's impossible - and have it available to consumers at a price they are willing to pay. Jul 29 15:20:39 Morglet: at a weight/volume they are willing to put up with. Jul 29 15:20:57 Compromise on one or more of those, and it becomes possible. Jul 29 15:21:27 size cost function pick any two Jul 29 15:21:47 SpeedEvil: you're projecting your own value judgements onto others. I currently carry a 9210 communicator, commonly known as a "brick". YMMV. Live with it. Jul 29 15:22:12 No, I'm not. Jul 29 15:22:20 I'm projecting the current phone market onto it. Jul 29 15:23:02 but you are morglet ... arguing with you brick Jul 29 15:23:03 If it's 1.5* bulkier, and 1.3* heavier, and 1.2* more expensive, then substantially less people will buy it. Jul 29 15:23:05 * daxxar sings o/~ TURN THE RADIO UP - FOR THAT SWEET SOUND. / HOLD ME CLOSE, NEVER LET ME GO / KEEP THIS FEELING ALIVE, MAKE ME LOSE CONTROL o/~ Jul 29 15:23:49 SpeedEvil: fewer :) Jul 29 15:23:55 * mwester motions to the bar's bouncer, and cuts off daxxar for the evening... Jul 29 15:24:11 Hehe. ;-) Jul 29 15:24:18 neo is small to me because P800 is my reference platform. neo is unacceptably large to my wife, who has a different platform. Jul 29 15:24:27 SpeedEvil: if a modular phone were totally pimped out with all the options, you'd probably be right. But that would be by choice. Jul 29 15:24:38 The Neo is approximately as big as my current phone, iirc Jul 29 15:24:47 (Qtek 8310 (aka HTC Tornado)) Jul 29 15:24:57 Writchie: indeed, it's subjective. We each have our own bar. Jul 29 15:25:02 Which is utter shite, and has a lot worse hardware & software (except it has WiFi) Jul 29 15:25:33 Everything you make optional in the core model, you add weight - extra connectors, extra hardware to hold the module - non optimal sizing, extra case material to hold the extra volume. Jul 29 15:25:46 not subjective because market gives us an objective answer in form of sales Jul 29 15:26:20 option pack might not be a bad idea Jul 29 15:26:23 SpeedEvil: wrong. For example, the standard skeleton could be SS, but at extra cost it could be magnesium + carbon fibre, light as hell. Jul 29 15:26:29 then its just one connector Jul 29 15:26:46 Consider an accelerometer. On the PCB it's a 6mm*1mm*6mm package. Jul 29 15:27:03 You're never going to package it into anything nearly that small as an add-on. Jul 29 15:27:16 Well, how much it adds depends on how fine-grained "modules" you want. Jul 29 15:27:43 with csp packages connectoring is much larger volume than the chips Jul 29 15:27:55 (If anyone has ever looked at Gumstix; it's a modularized "embedded system". But their modules are like "Net+CF" and "Net+Net", etcetera, so they combine multiple features) Jul 29 15:28:16 daxxar: Modular Phone on the wiki contains estimates for a gumstix phone. Jul 29 15:28:17 Which means that the size/volume overhead is slightly smaller. Jul 29 15:28:41 I'm just commenting that if your modules are feature-packed enough, the overhead is smaller. Jul 29 15:29:00 But the Gumstix as reliability issues wrt. to the connectors, and not any good 'generic casing' Jul 29 15:29:31 The problem with the "gumstix" model is that you end up with fewer mega-modules, but many of them may not have sufficient volume to offer the price points desired by consumers. Jul 29 15:30:04 "What is this, I can get a CF/WiFi module for $10, but the CF/Gigabit Ethernet module is $100???? Jul 29 15:30:07 " Jul 29 15:30:10 for example... Jul 29 15:31:02 anyone have cgiirc or something similar setup for #openmoko Jul 29 15:31:03 True Jul 29 15:31:07 SpeedEvil, ok Jul 29 15:31:10 It gets messy when you consider stuff like extra radios or stuff you might want to add. Jul 29 15:31:17 Does anyone have a suggestions as for a belt clip / carrying case for the neo? Jul 29 15:31:27 The connectors for those get hard, without even considering the antennas. Jul 29 15:31:28 BryceLeo: Try googling for CGI:IRC Freenode Jul 29 15:31:30 arcanericky: get a psp case with a belt lop on it Jul 29 15:32:00 Just a generic one from say - Target or Walmart? Jul 29 15:32:01 On connectors, we've been using gas-tight interference contacts for 30 years ... the only reason comsumer good have connecter issues is because they take shortcuts for cost and use crappy surface connections. It's not an issue at all, done properly. Jul 29 15:32:14 daxxar: i never would have thought to search for that. Thanks! Jul 29 15:33:00 Did that once, I think I found some public thing that allowed self-specified channels Jul 29 15:33:00 Morglet: Show me a dense 50 way 0.5mm pitch gas-tight connector. Jul 29 15:34:00 In surface mount, with a height of under 4mm. Jul 29 15:34:06 i'm curious if will be possible to order from the eu without having a credit anytime soon!? Jul 29 15:35:05 daxxar: my office blocks irc so it sucks during the week Jul 29 15:35:10 SpeedEvil: you'll prolly find one in the Neo connecting the LCM. If not, even the cheap laptop disk connectors aren't too bad, and can be miniaturized further. Jul 29 15:36:36 It wasn't a useful question anyway, since we don't use parallel backbones for much anymore, especially in a phone. Jul 29 15:39:09 BryceLeo: Ah. :-) Jul 29 15:39:42 there's just no way gumstix pricing would reach anyone beyond the most hardcore geeks Jul 29 15:40:07 I own a gumstix-system, currently stationed at my parents place. Jul 29 15:40:15 daxxar: besides i know that as soon as i finish this crash course today, all during the week, there'll be questions and requests Jul 29 15:40:19 Use it as a small linux gateway/dhcp Jul 29 15:40:25 BryceLeo: hehe, yes Jul 29 15:40:36 which costs like 5 times as much as a purpose built router doing the same Jul 29 15:40:59 Yes, probably, but I can't control the purpose built router. Jul 29 15:41:04 (or, well, I can; OpenWRT) Jul 29 15:41:16 But I have that too. ;-) Jul 29 15:41:18 i was going to say, you can get 40$ routers which are able to run openwrt these days Jul 29 15:41:28 Two, actually. One in my apt & one at my parents place. :-P Jul 29 15:42:11 I bought it more for the fun than the actual usefulness Jul 29 15:42:32 my wrt54 is quite useful to me ;) Jul 29 15:42:46 Err, the gumstix Jul 29 15:42:48 Not the wrt Jul 29 15:43:09 oh right Jul 29 15:43:14 but few people will Jul 29 15:43:16 Though I bought the wrt for fun initially, as we had an SMC router present. Jul 29 15:43:24 But it's quite useful. Jul 29 15:44:11 daxxar: how do you hook up the gumstix as dhcp server with only one network connection? Jul 29 15:44:21 if i was router manufacturer, i would have quit developping firmware a while ago Jul 29 15:44:33 BryceLeo: I have two, 'NetDuo' it's called, iirc Jul 29 15:44:43 daxxar: ahhh ok Jul 29 15:44:47 buz_: It seems like most do. ;-) Jul 29 15:45:00 buz_: (all other routers I've had has old & crappy fw) Jul 29 15:45:03 yeah but not really in favor of anyuseful firmware ;) Jul 29 15:45:09 True. :p Jul 29 15:45:17 i'd simply slap openwrt+x-wrt and some graphics on it Jul 29 15:45:28 I wonder why so many hardware-vendorss who run Linux in the background are so afraid to give the user control. Jul 29 15:45:40 users are usually idiots Jul 29 15:45:41 I mean, they don't have to support it, they can just add the option. Jul 29 15:45:47 because they couldnt sell the same hardare with a few more software features for 10x the price Jul 29 15:45:53 True Jul 29 15:46:03 a wrt54 is plenty capable for lowend vpn Jul 29 15:46:03 Like WRT54GL - "Linux Edition" Jul 29 15:46:12 but look a pricing of lowend vpn boxes Jul 29 15:46:38 The earlier WRT54's had Linux, then they moved over to that RTOS (can't rememer the name), then they released the WRT54GL (which again ran Linux) for a higher price Jul 29 15:46:38 buz_: and the raidus functionality is killer Jul 29 15:46:44 radius* Jul 29 15:47:41 anybody put vnc server up on neo yet? Jul 29 15:49:15 yuck, vnc... Jul 29 15:49:17 nx Jul 29 15:49:58 you have nx up? Jul 29 15:50:34 Hi Jul 29 15:50:42 dando: sup Jul 29 15:50:51 sup Jul 29 15:51:09 dando: working on the App Dev crash course u? Jul 29 15:51:44 me ? Jul 29 15:51:58 I do some testing Jul 29 15:51:59 dando: lol unless you see another dando Jul 29 15:52:17 sweet what distro you run dando Jul 29 15:52:42 Ubuntu and debian Jul 29 15:53:36 And OpenMoko Jul 29 15:53:46 dando: cool cool Jul 29 15:53:47 ;) Jul 29 15:54:01 What distro do u use? Jul 29 15:54:04 at what point becomes latency REALLY prohibitive for voip? Jul 29 15:55:23 dando: Ubuntu Jul 29 15:57:47 I have a question! Is it possible to strip the binaries with MokoMakefile ? Jul 29 15:58:50 dando: doesn't look it, i grepped the file for strip and didn't find anything Jul 29 15:59:11 anyone with the inside track know when the new Today app will get committed? Jul 29 16:00:06 have you tryed file Jul 29 16:00:40 daxxar - vxworks, even though it dosen't very well Jul 29 16:00:50 vxworks, thanks, that was the name. :-) Jul 29 16:01:01 I've never interacted with it, except I know some routers I've owned has run it. :) Jul 29 16:01:33 BryceLeo: ok Jul 29 16:01:47 buz - yeah i would too, especially since vendors seem almost incapable of writing good firmware ;) Jul 29 16:02:09 the first versions of the vxworks wrt54g's were horrible from what i hear Jul 29 16:02:45 BryceLeo: So the official snapshots are also unstripped. Jul 29 16:02:57 dando: that's the way it looks Jul 29 16:03:05 did linksys switch to vxworks simpyl so that cisco could sell more orverpriced stuff? Jul 29 16:03:14 dando: the officals maybe stripped by hand Jul 29 16:03:16 it was to shave off a few dollars Jul 29 16:03:26 they dropped the ram and flash down to 8mb/2mb Jul 29 16:03:31 by paying vxworks license fees? Jul 29 16:03:36 Does 'strip' save a lot of bytes on the original image? Jul 29 16:03:39 Is stuff compiled using -Os? Jul 29 16:03:44 yeah at this point i don't see any real cost savings ;) Jul 29 16:03:47 i wonder whether rewriting the whole thing really was cheaper Jul 29 16:04:06 it also put a far worse product out, but they didn't care about htat Jul 29 16:04:07 *that Jul 29 16:04:22 well that's linksys for you ;) Jul 29 16:04:24 don't forget - it's Cisco we're talking about here. There doesn't have to be any logic in any decisions they make. Jul 29 16:04:26 yup Jul 29 16:04:28 daxxar: i really wouldn't know because i've never done it, i personally need all the debug info i can get! Jul 29 16:04:44 Hehe, yes. :-) Jul 29 16:04:59 mhh i think i just killed my kamikaze router Jul 29 16:05:06 dando: i really wouldn't know because i've never done it, i personally need all the debug info i can get! Jul 29 16:05:23 But most development-work will be done by people with external storage (i.e. memcards), but the 'retail phones' might not ship with it (or have smaller ones), so space-usage is kinda interesting. Jul 29 16:05:33 buz_: I run white russian. :-/ Jul 29 16:05:39 Is Kamikaze released, or RC? Jul 29 16:05:40 yeah i upgraded this morning Jul 29 16:05:42 * BryceLeo is having tty (Tired Terminal eYes) problems Jul 29 16:05:45 released from what i gather Jul 29 16:05:50 but x-wrt is still alpha Jul 29 16:05:54 i wonder what it'd take to get cpufreq working Jul 29 16:06:12 it kinda routes Jul 29 16:06:20 spliffy - did sphyrna-devel work for you? Jul 29 16:06:20 but doesnt really respond to any connections Jul 29 16:06:22 x-wrt? Jul 29 16:06:28 That's the better UI? Jul 29 16:06:36 huh. Jul 29 16:06:38 http://xwrt.berlios.de/ Jul 29 16:06:40 yeah Jul 29 16:06:41 very useful Jul 29 16:06:45 SpeedEvil - did sphyrna-devel work for you? Jul 29 16:06:55 openwrt without gui is just too far from regular linux to bother Jul 29 16:07:02 BryceLeo: Yes. youre right on that point, but on a mobile device the capacity is limeted. Jul 29 16:07:46 Well, the normal openwrt UI isn't that bad? Jul 29 16:07:56 dando: with the current memory chips it isn't that big of a problem Jul 29 16:07:56 i thought li-ion batteries were in danger <3.0v Jul 29 16:07:59 _yet_ Jul 29 16:08:16 :) yet yes Jul 29 16:08:50 one can easily fit a linux distribution into 60 megabytes Jul 29 16:09:02 Cool, x-wrt has a new fs. :) Jul 29 16:09:12 dando: right but i'm currently working within qemu so i haven't worried about that yet, no cash for a gta01 Jul 29 16:09:30 Does x-wrt work on kamikaze, buz_? Jul 29 16:09:45 sort of Jul 29 16:09:58 basic stuff works, if you install kamikaze with xwrt images Jul 29 16:10:28 * BryceLeo sighs, and learns never to copy and paste from those open embedded folks Jul 29 16:10:58 hello class, what happens when you put an app in the /usr/bin directory and set the permissions to "644" and then try to run it. Jul 29 16:11:44 BryceLeo: me too. But I will bye the GTA02 Jul 29 16:12:05 i'm guessing gta02 will be a whole lot more expensive Jul 29 16:12:22 or was the price published already? Jul 29 16:12:27 dando: guaqua it shouldn't be, should be around the same cost because of more volume Jul 29 16:12:32 if it's a script and you invoke it with interpreter scriptname it will still work Jul 29 16:12:51 (i wonder what that would give in a test ;) Jul 29 16:13:03 buz: very nice notice of that technicality! however what if the file is a binary? Jul 29 16:13:16 haha buz if you were in my class i'd give you full credit Jul 29 16:13:17 not bloody much Jul 29 16:14:02 buz: ding ding ding, Jul 29 16:14:11 Now, what happens if you set it 654, and you're in the owning group *and* you're the owning user? Jul 29 16:14:35 (or 645, and you're the owning user) Jul 29 16:14:36 BryceLeo: quaqua 499,- $ Jul 29 16:15:04 https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/IPhone Jul 29 16:15:30 sorry 450 $ Jul 29 16:15:33 daxxar: it runs! Jul 29 16:15:40 daxxar: ... right? Jul 29 16:15:52 daxxar: wait a sec, shouldn't user override group? Jul 29 16:16:00 * BryceLeo loses Jul 29 16:16:06 Hehe ;-) Jul 29 16:16:21 It doesn't run, because it takes the "most specific" permission Jul 29 16:16:43 But if you're the owner, you can change the perms, but you have to do it manually. Jul 29 16:16:59 daxxar: yeah, i should have known that Jul 29 16:17:10 do you really ask stuff like that, BryceLeo Jul 29 16:17:13 seems like a class you cant failt Jul 29 16:17:29 Does BryceLeo teach a class? Jul 29 16:17:41 not sure Jul 29 16:17:51 maybe he was hypothetically speaking Jul 29 16:18:05 buz: haha i assistant teach highschool classes occasionally Jul 29 16:18:27 ah well basically cant fail there ;) Jul 29 16:18:50 buz: haha no it's def possible to fail, if you dont' try, but as long as you try and put some thought into it you won't fail Jul 29 16:19:20 daxxar: yeah java and in to that we sneak linux literacy Jul 29 16:19:34 oh i thought you would have to try hard at failing ;) Jul 29 16:19:57 buz: haha nah i try to make failing as easy as possible! Jul 29 16:20:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Application_Devleopment_Crash_Course]] [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMokoFramework]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[NAND_bad_blocks]] [[Dfu-util]] [[Talk:Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] [[IPhone]] [[Neo1973]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] and other changes Jul 29 16:22:35 BryceLeo: hehe Jul 29 16:23:10 :-D Jul 29 16:23:39 criminey sunburn sucks Jul 29 16:23:42 students must hate you ;) Jul 29 16:23:51 buz: haha oh terribly! Jul 29 16:24:30 sadly, i dont get to write exams, but if i did, students would hate me, too ;) Jul 29 16:24:39 2 messages Elrond. Jul 29 16:24:42 s/wrie/create/ Jul 29 16:24:51 ~s/write/create/ Jul 29 16:25:48 buz: haha, my main thing is just for them to learn something, and if they can outsmart me i'll give em credit as long as they can back it up Jul 29 16:26:28 thats what they all say ;) Jul 29 16:26:32 hmm, am I reading the mms spec correctly in that it is just an interface using a few http headers and then an smil document? Jul 29 16:26:41 Elrond: that sounds reasonable. (the messages) Jul 29 16:26:50 buz: you're a teacher too? Jul 29 16:27:10 research assistant mulling doing a phd Jul 29 16:28:00 buz: yuck a phd, bachelor is more than enough for me (though i'm still working on that bachelor) Jul 29 16:28:16 well i'm still working on my master, must write my thesis soon Jul 29 16:28:49 * mjr has been "working" on master's thesis for a few years now Jul 29 16:29:00 i definately couldn't do a thesis, not for me Jul 29 16:29:03 got my bachelor's out though, in time to get married Jul 29 16:29:34 well masters thesis is 4month Jul 29 16:29:42 phd anywhere from 2 to 8 years ;) Jul 29 16:30:25 lol, wow, nope def not, school's not for me, not enough time to learn important things Jul 29 16:30:28 Elrond: what's the typical integration period used, and what's the 'noise floor' compared to the peaks? (I'm trying to calculate if it's possible to get 'Symbol' phase accurate to enough to directly read out the position. Jul 29 16:32:02 SpeedEvil: sometimes when you speak.... man it confuses me Jul 29 16:32:17 BryceLeo: It's of the GPS innards. Jul 29 16:32:36 BryceLeo: it only makes sense if you have at least some idea on how GPS works Jul 29 16:32:41 SpeedEvil: lol i had that as a vague guess, i know nothing about gps innards Jul 29 16:32:58 cesarb: ahh well then that would explain me being totally at a loss Jul 29 16:33:12 i'm used to somewhat getting a basic understanding... but sometimes... ohh man Jul 29 16:34:12 hello all Jul 29 16:34:13 ZerothCloned: welcome back Jul 29 16:34:28 BryceLeo: what SpeedEvil said is hardcore low-level radio stuff, so it's not easy to get a basic understanding if you never read anything about it Jul 29 16:34:55 ermm, what does the Hammerhead spit out through the serial? Jul 29 16:34:57 cesarb: ok that makes alot more sense, if i get time i'll have to look into how it works Jul 29 16:35:24 i'm guessing it's not radio stuff - moreso a proprietary format of displaying the various data? Jul 29 16:35:30 guaqua: it's basically a software radio. Jul 29 16:36:02 guaqua: It only recieves the bare minimum it needs to. The main CPU does all the 'cooking' to generate a position. Jul 29 16:36:08 okay Jul 29 16:36:21 so it's nothing like the gsm chip Jul 29 16:36:26 nope Jul 29 16:37:49 guaqua: well, if I read the wiki correctly, the GSM chips is in fact three chips, and what we have with GPS is a bit like the interface between the first GSM chip and the second GSM chip (with GSM, we are talking to the third chip) Jul 29 16:38:36 ZerothCloned: wanna take a peek at it in the making? Jul 29 16:38:52 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/A-GPS is an overview Jul 29 16:38:56 there are 3 radios in neo, gsm, gps, and bluetooth Jul 29 16:38:59 Also http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol Jul 29 16:40:04 4 counting wifi in P2 Jul 29 16:40:18 5 if it gets a FM radio :) Jul 29 16:40:44 yeah and 6 if it gets dvb-h but let's not get carried away :) Jul 29 16:40:53 :D Jul 29 16:40:53 7 with wireless usb Jul 29 16:41:00 8 with ultrawideband Jul 29 16:41:10 wimax! umts! Jul 29 16:41:11 Quick question: how hard will it be, if anyone knows, to develop applications that interface on a low-level with the wifi/bluetooth? Jul 29 16:41:22 ZerothCloned, what do you mean "low level"? Jul 29 16:41:27 sounds like we need an uberradio Jul 29 16:41:45 the general answer would probably be "as hard as on Linux usually", though there are complications with at least bt and sleep Jul 29 16:42:06 Writchie: actually, the separate radios are more efficient, since they are finely tuned to their purposes Jul 29 16:42:19 of course Jul 29 16:42:29 Writchie: and with separate radios you can use them all at the same time ;-) (with a small snag with wifi and bt) Jul 29 16:42:45 small? Jul 29 16:42:52 it's a pretty small, the snag, since the bt and wifi parts coordinate their transmissions Jul 29 16:43:01 its the other devices Jul 29 16:43:18 like microwave ovens Jul 29 16:43:33 you should see what the 2.4 noise floor is around here Jul 29 16:43:44 160 meter and 80 meter bands to neo! Jul 29 16:43:45 mjr: they _can_ coordinate their transmissions, we can only hope the hw guys remembered to wire it up Jul 29 16:44:10 cesarb, from what I've read from the neo-1973-list, _that_ they did remember Jul 29 16:44:25 its in P2 at the expense of low power BT operation Jul 29 16:44:28 oh, I know. I work in retail, selling electronics,(think Radioshack, but Canadian) and we get so many complaints about the 2.4 ghz phones not working. Jul 29 16:44:46 we had to move to 5.6 ghz for this. Jul 29 16:44:59 ... seriously? awesome. Jul 29 16:45:42 i'm thinking of moving home networks to 802.11a Jul 29 16:46:00 to get away from all my wireless neighbor devices Jul 29 16:46:21 never had that kind of a problem myself Jul 29 16:46:46 i'm guessing we have real cell phones in europe, not 2.4 ghz handsets for landline Jul 29 16:46:55 whats needed, is a wireless router that automatically chooses a channel thats not taken by wireless routers around Jul 29 16:47:14 802.11n Jul 29 16:47:21 uses the whole bands Jul 29 16:47:22 there are only 3 non overlapping 2.4 channels for wifi Jul 29 16:47:25 they're all taken ;) Jul 29 16:47:33 ouch XD Jul 29 16:47:34 802.11g uses half of them. Jul 29 16:47:39 only 1 5 11 are real channels Jul 29 16:47:40 Only b uses single channels. Jul 29 16:47:57 ZerothCloned: nah, what's needed, is cooperative meshing between the routers Jul 29 16:48:03 Can't work. Jul 29 16:48:15 The problem is that you can't collision avoid routers you can't recieve. Jul 29 16:48:23 ZerothCloned: so they would reduce their power when there are other routers nearby, but relay the data so you would not lose the range Jul 29 16:48:25 need wideband cdma for 2.4 and 5.8 bands Jul 29 16:48:26 But they still add to the noise floor. Jul 29 16:48:59 true Jul 29 16:49:31 wideband cdma plus phased array Jul 29 16:50:17 neo 2017 Jul 29 16:54:19 * ZerothCloned attempts to perform cpr on BryceLeo Jul 29 16:58:17 60Ghz may be interesting. Jul 29 16:58:26 At 60Ghz, you get a different thing happening. Jul 29 16:58:37 As all signals are mostly absorbed in a kilometer. Jul 29 16:58:57 It means that you only interfere with stuff inside that kilometer. Jul 29 16:59:12 near field is 1km? Jul 29 16:59:16 No. Jul 29 16:59:17 interesting... what do you think will happen with the 700 mhz auctions? Jul 29 16:59:26 The oxygen in the air absorbs it. Jul 29 16:59:46 700mhz isn't an interesting band. Jul 29 16:59:54 depends? Jul 29 17:00:26 The whole hundreds of thousands of Km long antennas thing makes it awkward. Jul 29 17:00:51 * SpeedEvil puts on his pedant hat and cloak. Jul 29 17:00:58 700mhz needs to be used for wcdma 3G Jul 29 17:01:22 cell towers are spaced for 800 which is why 1900 gsm sucks here Jul 29 17:01:28 Hm, isn't 700MHz the TV range? Jul 29 17:01:45 its being freed up my moving the f^&* tv's Jul 29 17:01:48 it is. tv is being migrated to a digital frequency, freeing up that range. Jul 29 17:02:10 only took 20 freakin years to move them Jul 29 17:02:26 ZerothCloned: well, it will probably take a long time until that frequency is freed around here then ;-) Jul 29 17:02:38 which will suck for everyone in electronics retail, as a swarm of old people descend asking why their tvs and rabbit ears don't work. Jul 29 17:02:49 (there isn't digital over-the-air TV around here yet) Jul 29 17:03:03 (yet. But there will be,.... there hsould be!) Jul 29 17:03:13 one of the stupdiest ideas ever Jul 29 17:03:25 ZerothCloned: won't these old people just need an external tuner? Jul 29 17:03:31 6mz for broadcast when we pay $0.01 pe kb for gprs Jul 29 17:05:46 What is the size of the spectrum? Jul 29 17:05:59 The 700MHz to be auctioned. Jul 29 17:06:05 yup Jul 29 17:06:22 wikipedia should have the answers, one sec Jul 29 17:06:24 google's offered 4.6 billion if the rules are changed so use can use any mobile cpe Jul 29 17:06:33 cpe? Jul 29 17:06:40 ~cpe Jul 29 17:06:44 customer prem i.e. sim card based phone Jul 29 17:06:46 if it's the same range as here in Brazil, it's 614 - 806 MHz Jul 29 17:06:48 Ah Jul 29 17:06:51 hmm... cpe is Customer Premises Equipment. Telephone devices such as handsets and PBXs located at the customer.s site that interface with the public network. It includes equipment such as modems, terminals and routers supplied by the telephone company, installed at customer sites and connected to the telephone network. Jul 29 17:07:03 non gsm carriers want phone tied to them Jul 29 17:07:06 like it is now Jul 29 17:07:17 they do not want to compete on basis of their networks Jul 29 17:07:23 heh, they always do. Jul 29 17:07:40 i mean their crappy networks Jul 29 17:08:10 I've seen a lot of explanations for the nickel and diming of the telcos here, and some of them make sense Jul 29 17:08:18 SpeedEvil - Lowest integration time is 99 of those units. I can create a histogram of used integration times for longtrace, if you want me to. Jul 29 17:08:23 making money always makes sense Jul 29 17:08:52 bell shaped head never understands that lower price = more revenue Jul 29 17:08:55 one: upgrading the network can only proceed slowly due to the land area of Canada+US, thus, they need constant extra revenue. Jul 29 17:08:59 Elrond: odd. Jul 29 17:09:08 Writchie: only if there is underlying capacity. Jul 29 17:09:29 more cells when more volume Jul 29 17:09:41 Elrond: Hmm. Jul 29 17:09:43 as long as the basic infrastruture is rational Jul 29 17:09:46 second; since asia+europe+japan upgraded first, they didn't know what would be popular, so they offered flat rate fees for everything Jul 29 17:10:06 but since Canada+US upgraded after, they knew what was popular, and decided to make money off of that stuff Jul 29 17:10:38 what do you mean by "upgrade" Jul 29 17:10:43 ZerothCloned: I'm not so sure on your second point... Jul 29 17:10:48 and we expect that kind of nickel and diming now. whereas in other places, they expect flat rate fees Jul 29 17:11:10 by upgrading, I mean from old analog wireless, to digital wireless which can support text messaging, etc. Jul 29 17:11:12 ZerothCloned: and have failed to make as much money from the stuff as the carriers here Jul 29 17:11:12 ZerothCloned: here in Brazil, the CDMA carrier tends to have locked handsets (things like not enabling bluetooth), while the GSM carriers are the opposite Jul 29 17:11:24 that upgrade was 15 years ago Jul 29 17:11:30 ZerothCloned: and one of the GSM carriers is starting to sell unlocked phones only Jul 29 17:11:34 Elrond: I don't understand how it can integrate for more than 40 or so. Jul 29 17:11:50 both networks are unlocked Jul 29 17:11:57 but you are on your own. Jul 29 17:12:09 gsm network, that is Jul 29 17:12:21 Elrond: without often hitting a navigation bit boundary. Of course, there may be internal bit-slicing going on. Does it integrate for shorter periods at the beginning? Jul 29 17:12:25 new rules also permit unlocking your phone Jul 29 17:12:40 Of course, to not permit such, would be a monopoly ;-) Jul 29 17:12:41 it is now defined as fair use of copyright Jul 29 17:13:16 it started as a duopoly, 1 bell 1 non-bell Jul 29 17:13:30 ended up bell vs bell Jul 29 17:13:38 SpeedEvil - Ahh, my mail was not detailed enough: s/Default/Value for searching for sats/ Jul 29 17:13:45 the cdma carrier here, they charge fricking 75 bucks to change my number, whereas the gsm carrier offers anytime plan switching at no cost, anytime number switching, etc etc Jul 29 17:14:27 china is the only country that got it really right Jul 29 17:14:38 how is that? Jul 29 17:14:47 you buy a sim card and then go buy a phone Jul 29 17:14:48 SpeedEvil - For searching it uses 3999 (1sec). And when it hits something (the correlator hits the 0xfff), and then it starts to reduce the MaxIneTime. Jul 29 17:15:02 so... China is more free than the US/Canada? Jul 29 17:15:07 absolutely Jul 29 17:15:08 Writchie: that has been the way in nordic countries from the beginning Jul 29 17:15:15 ... except for when you try to use a data plan ;) Jul 29 17:15:21 that's the whole idea beyind gsm Jul 29 17:15:23 only during the past year they started selling subsidised Jul 29 17:15:25 or access sites outside of china Jul 29 17:15:48 data plan rates suck. which is why i want ways around it. ;-) Jul 29 17:15:50 Ok. Then I guess the integrator must integrate the total power, not the power with sign. Jul 29 17:15:58 unless you free the terminal from the network you don't have competition Jul 29 17:16:09 if you don't have competition, you don't drive down the price Jul 29 17:16:29 my carrier's getting better and better Jul 29 17:16:30 Elrond: otherwise the bits would average out. Jul 29 17:16:31 carriers don't want competition - all business strive to become a monopoly Jul 29 17:16:35 slowly but surely Jul 29 17:17:02 SpeedEvil - Yeah, and/or there would be some negative value possible or so. Jul 29 17:17:03 if a carrier is getting better, its only because there is some competitive element somewhere Jul 29 17:17:04 to create competition you need laws to prevent carriers from using all their dirty tricks to keep the market to themselves Jul 29 17:17:23 of course. for example early cancellation fees suck Jul 29 17:17:27 and that's where the americans have failed Jul 29 17:17:38 also, number porting had to be legislated to be allowed by carriers Jul 29 17:18:02 yes Jul 29 17:18:20 SpeedEvil - Next on my list: Get some PRN/doppler shift, that usually overflows and then vary the integration time and draw peak-height versus integration time. Jul 29 17:18:24 another thing that would help is forcing the carriers to let other companies into their networks Jul 29 17:18:34 and fact is, it only happened when a politician got hit by a 400 buck charge when they realized cdma sucks. Jul 29 17:18:35 practically that means virtual service operators Jul 29 17:18:46 guaqua: we already have that.. Jul 29 17:19:00 ~mvno Jul 29 17:19:04 where is this, Qwell? Jul 29 17:19:08 in the US? Jul 29 17:19:12 okay Jul 29 17:19:13 we need more competition in Canada :/ Its basically Telus and Rogers. Thats it. Jul 29 17:19:16 That's exactly what t-mobile is Jul 29 17:19:20 (or, was?) Jul 29 17:19:26 then it obviously isn't working like it should Jul 29 17:19:44 sure it is - most of the companies are just run by idiots Jul 29 17:19:47 in finland it has driven down the prices Jul 29 17:19:48 ie; Amp'd Jul 29 17:20:20 though nowadays it seems the network owning carriers have bought out the service operators Jul 29 17:20:26 Elrond: If you want doppler for your location, tell me where you are. Jul 29 17:20:47 At&T atm controls... what, 2/3rds or more of the US now? Jul 29 17:21:29 US cellular market? I doubt that Jul 29 17:21:42 SpeedEvil - The crazy point (which I still don't understand at all): I made a plot of peak height versus doppler. And it has one maximum at doppler==0. And for PRN==1 for example, there is a fixed maximum at -243200. I have no idea, what that means. Jul 29 17:21:47 i'm guessing it has the best coverage Jul 29 17:22:11 guaqua: I think Verizon does. Jul 29 17:22:20 interesting Jul 29 17:22:26 verizon is cdma only? Jul 29 17:22:29 yes Jul 29 17:22:34 wankers Jul 29 17:22:35 and you know what really sucks? the customer service. Jul 29 17:22:41 ZerothCloned: not tmobile Jul 29 17:22:45 all others, yes Jul 29 17:23:20 but is it really so that you can't get a proper prepaid sim card? Jul 29 17:23:30 You can get prepaid all over Jul 29 17:23:40 Hm, I should get a prepaid card for when the phone arrives. Jul 29 17:23:42 mostly from...MVNOs Jul 29 17:24:25 what is mvno? Jul 29 17:24:35 mobile virtual network operator Jul 29 17:24:39 Elrond: you know the doppler moves slowly? Jul 29 17:24:43 can you provide some urls? Jul 29 17:24:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVNO Jul 29 17:24:53 Elrond: as in a meter a second a minute or so. Jul 29 17:25:56 Qwell: i liked you run by idiots - that is the key problem Jul 29 17:26:14 SpeedEvil - The -243200 is reproducible from day to day... Jul 29 17:26:22 Oh. Jul 29 17:26:37 SpeedEvil - I even doubt, that PRN==1 is visible all those days. ;o) Jul 29 17:26:44 Does gllin change doppler? Jul 29 17:26:49 Qwell: do you know any us MVNO with gprs or prepaid with gprs? Jul 29 17:26:52 over time Jul 29 17:26:54 SpeedEvil - You mean over time? Jul 29 17:26:54 virgin Jul 29 17:26:56 Yes. Jul 29 17:26:58 oh, gprs Jul 29 17:27:00 umm Jul 29 17:27:06 Elrond: after the initial lock Jul 29 17:27:11 i thought virgin was not gsm Jul 29 17:27:11 I think Amp'd had GPRS, heh Jul 29 17:27:13 Yes, it does. Jul 29 17:27:32 i meadn real gsm/gprs Jul 29 17:27:33 Ok. Plot doppler/time, and compare with real doppler. Jul 29 17:27:44 Qwell: thanks Jul 29 17:28:05 That should at least get you the range I think. Jul 29 17:28:18 SpeedEvil - You created data for longtrace, right? Jul 29 17:28:22 yes Jul 29 17:28:47 SpeedEvil - Okay. I'll extract two sats from it, and their doppler. Jul 29 17:28:58 http://www.mauve.plus.com/gps Jul 29 17:29:16 UT and UT = UTC time and date Jul 29 17:29:44 :-) Jul 29 17:29:55 UD even Jul 29 17:30:41 Hey, sweet, I found a subscription that is $0/month, $0/registration fee, and has 120 minutes + 90 SMSes / month free. Perfect 'test Neo1973'-subscription. :D Jul 29 17:30:43 Okay... extracting channel1... let's see. Jul 29 17:31:04 Hm, and only ~$2/mb gprs. Jul 29 17:32:02 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: Back up of the "Factory Bad Block Table" BBT, needed or a Jul 29 17:33:22 Analysing longtrace takes lots of time... Jul 29 17:34:19 how much is a really cheapo gsm phone in the states? Jul 29 17:36:10 quaqua: depends on for what? Jul 29 17:36:22 Neo-1973, I must have. Kill for it, will I. Jul 29 17:37:07 i think t-mobile prepaid has limited gprs Jul 29 17:37:08 Practise for talk like yoda day, I must. Jul 29 17:37:23 Writchie: any gsm phone Jul 29 17:37:46 you really can't go anywhere and buy a gsm phone is U.S. Jul 29 17:37:59 you can buy over the internet. Jul 29 17:38:02 happycube: it has IP connectivity with port filtering and only limited HTTP places available Jul 29 17:38:20 happycube: earlier, those limitations were in the phone firmware, so you could just swap out your own phone ;) Jul 29 17:38:31 happycube: these days they seem to do it in a router Jul 29 17:38:48 guagua: any gsm 1900 will work on t-mobile and i think also on at&t Jul 29 17:39:00 but don't expect them to talk to you about anything Jul 29 17:39:05 Tv - enough to run a test then Jul 29 17:39:13 Writchie: i'm just pondering whether i should get one from here that does 1900 MHz or get one from the states Jul 29 17:39:20 where is here? Jul 29 17:39:22 doing a 3 week roadtrip on the west coast Jul 29 17:39:25 here is finland Jul 29 17:39:39 i would bring your own Jul 29 17:40:06 quaqua: you can buy a prepaid Jul 29 17:40:17 quaqua: doesn't your roaming work Jul 29 17:40:32 or too expensive Jul 29 17:40:34 i don't wanna know - and it might be _really_ expensive Jul 29 17:40:43 prepaid is also a way to control the costs somewhat Jul 29 17:40:59 any idea where i'd get the sim card - going to seattle first? Jul 29 17:41:08 when do you leave Jul 29 17:41:11 is there some special stores the sell those? Jul 29 17:41:28 plane takes off on tuesday :) Jul 29 17:41:54 i think you may find t-mobile to go in shops Jul 29 17:42:01 damn... Children of men is simply awesome :D Jul 29 17:42:10 i am going to a us airport tonight - i'll look around Jul 29 17:42:34 okay Jul 29 17:42:48 i'll have to look for 3-band gsm phones tomorrow Jul 29 17:43:20 full coverage actually needs quad band Jul 29 17:43:38 depends on where you are going Jul 29 17:43:43 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 29 17:43:47 quad band usually not too cheap Jul 29 17:44:18 i really only care about a phone that works somewhat somewhere Jul 29 17:44:29 gsm 1900 will work most places on either network Jul 29 17:44:45 so i can call for the next day's lodging etc Jul 29 17:46:21 ZerothCloned: you must be british Jul 29 17:46:44 "lodging?" Jul 29 17:47:19 mellon: hotel accodations Jul 29 17:47:26 accomodations Jul 29 17:47:31 I know, I know. Jul 29 17:47:36 sorry Jul 29 17:47:38 :') Jul 29 17:47:52 I was just wondering where the "you must be british" comment came from. Jul 29 17:48:02 from children of men comment? Jul 29 17:48:05 that was probable for me Jul 29 17:48:26 americans use the word lodging too Jul 29 17:48:31 yes Jul 29 17:48:33 Wow, I wouldn't have gotten that from "children of men." Jul 29 17:48:39 i mean aye Jul 29 17:48:56 I was wondering why Writchie was asking me that. Jul 29 17:49:14 I figured it was just a random comment. Jul 29 17:49:21 Was he right? Jul 29 17:49:39 as former expat american i find "Children of Men" and "Serentity" to appeal much higher to brits Jul 29 17:49:40 No. I'm Canadian, but our queen IS the british queen... Jul 29 17:49:49 Well, there you go. :') Jul 29 17:50:05 i meant Serenity Jul 29 17:50:12 what about V for Vendetta? Or 28 days/weeks later? Jul 29 17:50:21 I've never heard of Children of Men, but Serenity certainly has a pretty strong following amongst U.S. geeks. Jul 29 17:50:31 haven't seen them so i can't comment. Jul 29 17:50:38 Children of Men was awesome, go bittorrent it. Jul 29 17:50:41 V is so, so good. Jul 29 17:50:49 i like Serenity too - but best scifi film ever afraid not Jul 29 17:50:58 Nope, that would be Blade Runner, of course. Jul 29 17:50:59 it was shown in Canada, I didn't realize it wasn't shown in the US Jul 29 17:50:59 :') Jul 29 17:51:10 ZerothCloned, you don't even have your very own queen? That's sad, man ;) Jul 29 17:51:18 what no internet in Canada :) Jul 29 17:51:19 Why buy when you can borrow? Jul 29 17:51:28 * ScaredyCat agrees with mellon Jul 29 17:51:40 Blade Runner.. Jul 29 17:52:03 I have to confess, though, that I prefer the original version to the director's cut. Jul 29 17:52:12 mellon: sacre bleu!!!! Jul 29 17:52:15 :') Jul 29 17:52:23 I am a heretic, I admit it. Jul 29 17:52:29 Blade Runner wasn't the best, but it was damned close. Jul 29 17:52:29 nobody in france says sacre bleu Jul 29 17:52:38 zoot alors Jul 29 17:52:39 ! Jul 29 17:52:44 Star Wreck is pretty damn good. Jul 29 17:52:47 Writchie: good thing we're not in France ;) ;) Jul 29 17:52:51 Nah, they just surrender @ writchie Jul 29 17:52:51 mon dieu! Jul 29 17:52:55 bitch Jul 29 17:53:09 ;-) Jul 29 17:53:15 Possibly the best scifi movie that I have seen. Jul 29 17:53:43 (I don't keep a list, so it is hard to name a favorite) Jul 29 17:54:03 Well, there's always The Matrix, although there could have been so much more story there. Jul 29 17:54:18 dus eeur dawg bayt? Neeew. Eeew sayd eeur dawg dus nort baty! is nort ma dawg. Jul 29 17:54:37 the best scifi movie imo is 2001: a space odyssey Jul 29 17:54:42 French people don't talk like that either. But that was a very funny scene. Jul 29 17:54:47 Jul 29 17:54:49 rotflmao Jul 29 17:54:52 Feh, 2001 is pure politics. Jul 29 17:55:00 Bo-o-ring. Jul 29 17:55:02 :') Jul 29 17:55:22 its /true/ scifi. something that stretches the mind... rather unlike the Matrix ;-) Jul 29 17:55:28 I've only ever seen it once, and what I remember are the scenes between the Americans and the Russians on the space station. Jul 29 17:55:55 It's so much a product of its time that it's hard to actually see the story through the mask of the sixties. Jul 29 17:56:04 or what about Alien? Jul 29 17:56:11 Eh. Bug hunt. Jul 29 17:56:18 alien 1 was ok, the rest sucked Jul 29 17:56:26 It's a good bug hunt movie, but hardly great Science Fiction. Jul 29 17:57:01 collosus the forbin project - very good but dated Jul 29 17:57:03 2001 might have been good at the time, but today it is quite mediocre. Jul 29 17:57:09 Anyway, if Matrix didn't stretch your mind, you weren't paying attention... Admittedly, there was a lot in it that was completely silly, but it was a really neat world to play around in. Jul 29 17:57:20 yeah, but then star wars is too.... Jul 29 17:57:24 Jul 29 17:57:25 Basic philosophy dude. Jul 29 17:57:36 Not very mind stretching Jul 29 17:57:57 the animatrix however, was much better as a whole, and the individual stories themselves. Jul 29 17:57:57 The original Star Wars was great. I saw it in the movie theatre when it first came out - it was mindblowingly good. Jul 29 17:58:07 and still is! Jul 29 17:58:16 Yeah, that's what pisses me off about The Matrix - they really could have explored the human-machine conflict better. Jul 29 17:58:18 have you watched it since mellon.... Jul 29 17:58:23 I wish I hadn't Jul 29 17:58:32 ruined the illusion Jul 29 17:58:37 Yes. Too bad about the thing with Greedo, but at least now Lucas admits changing that was a mistake. Jul 29 17:59:15 I think the original Star Wars is best appreciated as a teenage male. Jul 29 17:59:33 I was about thirteen when it came out. Jul 29 17:59:37 the first matix film was ood, then they went far too much action hero shite... Jul 29 18:00:03 well, see the first three star wars movies, weren't written by George Lucas Jul 29 18:00:05 I really like the second and third movies, but they left *so* much story on the table that it's really frustrating. Jul 29 18:00:07 special effects were always good though Jul 29 18:00:08 which explains their quality Jul 29 18:00:19 Heh Jul 29 18:00:22 Leigh Brackett. Jul 29 18:00:31 the first movie was rewritten a few times Jul 29 18:00:41 the first draft of star wars is almsot unrecognizable Jul 29 18:00:43 *almost Jul 29 18:00:45 oh, google "the darth side" and you'll get a blog written by a very talented writer, from the viewpoint of Darth Vader. Its rather awesome ;-) Jul 29 18:00:53 That is *hilarious*. Jul 29 18:01:32 * SpeedEvil ponders. Jul 29 18:01:57 Uh oh. Jul 29 18:02:52 lonely as a plasma cloud? Jul 29 18:04:02 * SpeedEvil quite liked the Stargate movie. Jul 29 18:04:12 That was fun. Very silly. Jul 29 18:04:23 So are people playing with their Neos yet? Jul 29 18:04:35 I like the series myself @ SpeedEvil Jul 29 18:04:37 * SpeedEvil is playing with the UPS tracking site. Jul 29 18:04:42 Heh. Jul 29 18:04:44 SpeedEvil: you have laser reg in UK Jul 29 18:04:52 laser reg? Jul 29 18:04:57 I ordered a creamsicle Neo, so I don't get mine until next week. :'( Jul 29 18:04:57 class 1 - 4 stuff Jul 29 18:04:58 ooh! Minority Report! Jul 29 18:05:09 Writchie: yes Jul 29 18:05:26 class 1 have to be labeled or just reported? Jul 29 18:05:38 Dunno. I'd check wikipedia. Jul 29 18:05:42 tx Jul 29 18:05:51 I _think_ all classes have to be labelled. Jul 29 18:06:20 pointer shipped with neo's may be non-compliant here Jul 29 18:06:39 * SpeedEvil has had laser-based stuff confiscated before. Jul 29 18:06:51 so have my kids Jul 29 18:06:54 by me Jul 29 18:07:02 By the bastards at customs. Jul 29 18:07:13 It's just a cat tormenting device, not a laser. Jul 29 18:07:16 * mwester has a couple of those. Great fun with a cat. Not much use otherwise. Jul 29 18:07:21 pointers used to be a big problem in China Jul 29 18:08:02 Just don't use 'em around cops. They get... *coughs* irritable. And thats not from personal experience.... Jul 29 18:08:35 schools confiscate them here Jul 29 18:09:15 justifiably. Jul 29 18:09:21 true Jul 29 18:09:35 almost had a cop shoot me for using a pointer... *whistles* he thought I was an assasin. Jul 29 18:09:46 you were an assasin Jul 29 18:09:53 maaayyybbbbeeee Jul 29 18:09:54 were you dressed like an assasin? Jul 29 18:09:59 maaayyybbbbeeee Jul 29 18:10:08 assassin* Jul 29 18:10:24 it was the all black gear and ninja mask that gave you away Jul 29 18:10:34 Really? I was wondering about that! Jul 29 18:11:06 You know, I did like, try to wear the Templar white and the red cross, and blend in with monks. Didn't work very well for some reason :/ Jul 29 18:11:07 and the bumper sticker "Assassins do it until the end" Jul 29 18:11:27 s/until// Jul 29 18:11:27 ScaredyCat meant: and the bumper sticker "Assassins do it the end" Jul 29 18:11:44 s/it /it in / Jul 29 18:11:44 ScaredyCat meant: and the bumper sticker "Assassins do it in until the end" Jul 29 18:11:53 COCK Jul 29 18:11:55 lmao Jul 29 18:12:47 anyway... Jul 29 18:13:31 * mwester wonders if guitar picks are considered contraband in his community, which might explain why his kit hasn't arrived... Jul 29 18:13:55 Speaking of the pointer, I didn't get it... seems way too overkill to have an all-dancing-and-singing stylus, when the rest of the package is what really matters Jul 29 18:13:57 What happened BryceLeo? Jul 29 18:14:25 ("get" as in "understand") Jul 29 18:14:32 pointer is actually tres kool dude Jul 29 18:15:42 I suspect the pointer was just something silly that happened, not something that was seriously intended. Jul 29 18:16:34 i think it was to compensate for the lack of stylus-holder in the gta0x case Jul 29 18:16:36 ZerothCloned: i spent the last however long writithing on my bathroom floor on the phone with poison control Jul 29 18:16:47 i'm apparently deathly allergic to Aloe Vera Jul 29 18:17:05 after 35mins of worthless tips they told me to take a hot shower Jul 29 18:17:09 and it worked Jul 29 18:17:27 wow Jul 29 18:17:47 wow... nvm must have been alot longer than 35 mins Jul 29 18:17:51 That's a very ironic thing to be allergic to; it's the "magic" remedy for so many other things (burns, rashes, etc)... Wow! Jul 29 18:17:56 * SpeedEvil wonders. Jul 29 18:17:56 Nice to know they're well-trained! Jul 29 18:18:06 to cheer everyone up: http://fukung.net/v/2212/white_supremacy.jpg Jul 29 18:18:10 i have no idea how long, but it was insane, i couldn't think at all, and was just slamming myself around the floor Jul 29 18:18:24 Hope you're not sensitised to it now. Jul 29 18:18:27 mwester: tell me about it, man it was insane Jul 29 18:18:30 damn, dude, thats horrible. what happened? Painful rash? Jul 29 18:18:32 Anaphylactic shock isn't any fun. Jul 29 18:19:04 I took literally 3/4 a bottle of benedryl and my back is still this crazy dark red color Jul 29 18:19:24 and yet now i feel fine as day and i can think and feel fine, but man... at the time... i was like someone else. Jul 29 18:19:42 never had a feeling like that before Jul 29 18:19:54 Vegar: Hi, you here? Jul 29 18:20:01 SpeedEvil - Okay, I extracted wanna-be-dopplers for prn8 and prn26 with some timestamps. Do you want the .dat (ASCII, tab seperated), or should I create a .png with gnuplot? Jul 29 18:20:15 Vegar: Are you going to purchase the Neo1973 (given the price is acceptable) before the software is mature? Jul 29 18:20:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_local_Groups:_Copenhagen]] [[User:Andlo]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Main_Page/ru]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[OpenMokoFramework/it]] [[Hammerhead/Integrators]] [[Bad_title]] Jul 29 18:20:29 SpeedEvil - My timestamps are not yet absolute, as I only have the strace stamps. Jul 29 18:20:38 BryceLeo: How did the stuff enter your body in the first place? Jul 29 18:20:43 daxxar: I'm definitely gonna buy one Jul 29 18:20:46 daxxar: but not P1 Jul 29 18:21:02 Vegar: Okay. Nevermind, then. :-) Jul 29 18:21:06 "Bad title"? didn't they fix that bug on mediawiki already? Jul 29 18:21:13 I'm just trying to figure out how to spin buying a V2 to my wife when I already have a V1. Jul 29 18:21:23 abraxa__: I put it on my back for my sunburn Jul 29 18:21:24 (the bug which caused the "bad title" page to end up being created by accident) Jul 29 18:21:31 Don't tell her, and send it to me? Jul 29 18:21:42 @ mellon Jul 29 18:21:47 She runs the family finances (and thank God, otherwise the water would get shut off). Jul 29 18:21:48 daxxar: were you considering group purchase? Jul 29 18:21:56 darn... Jul 29 18:22:18 I might wait for the following generation... :') Jul 29 18:22:20 Vegar: No, I've already bought and been charged. 'twas just that I found out that OneCall has the 'ideal' subscription for a phone that's not usable as your day-to-day phone. Jul 29 18:22:35 Vegar: Since it has no monthly cost, no subscription cost, and free SMSes/call time each month. Jul 29 18:22:38 It would be really nice if they came out with a phone that had a hardware H.264 decoder. Jul 29 18:22:40 hehe Jul 29 18:22:52 abraxa__: it's my first time using it... everyone told me how great it was Jul 29 18:22:54 mellon: Try selling the P1 before buying the P2? Jul 29 18:23:05 daxxar: If there was a P1.5, I'd buy it Jul 29 18:23:18 BryceLeo: That blows... especially since such lotion doesn't seem to contain much of that substance at all Jul 29 18:23:34 Dunno what the resale market will be like on P1s. Jul 29 18:23:39 yeah exactly man Jul 29 18:23:55 but what I /really/ like, is how you managed to find the time to change your nick. ;-) Jul 29 18:24:11 abraxa__: http://www.fote.com/prod_skin_gel.html# actually this says it's pretty much all aloe vera Jul 29 18:24:38 ZerothCloned: lol, that was before it got really bad Jul 29 18:24:48 ZerothCloned: and i thought i was kidding Jul 29 18:25:25 BryceLeo: lol... gotta love marketing peeps - "100% gel"... yeah right, wouldn't make much sense to be 80% gel, 20% water ;) Jul 29 18:25:55 abraxa__: lol that's true, but man it's enough of whatever in there to make me go nuts Jul 29 18:26:28 Sure seems like it Jul 29 18:30:30 Anyone got a hint for me on how to obtain a reference to the GTK main loop? Is writing my own idle func really the only way? Jul 29 18:30:37 The resale market for P1's might be really good -- if you sell it soon enough, mellon! Jul 29 18:30:58 Tell them its a p2 ;-) Jul 29 18:31:04 Vegar: You miss the WLAN? Jul 29 18:31:21 yes Jul 29 18:31:29 abraxa_: i think so... i'm not sure Jul 29 18:31:31 mwester:not selling it until there's something better in my hot little hands. Jul 29 18:31:35 abraxa_ - What do you want to do? Jul 29 18:31:40 daxxar: and the nice battery Jul 29 18:32:07 Vegar: Bigger battery on GTA02? Jul 29 18:32:24 Elrond: either png or dat Jul 29 18:32:31 daxxar: yes Jul 29 18:32:36 * mwester suddenly wonders if any P1's have appeared on eBay... Jul 29 18:32:36 SpeedEvil - Okay. Jul 29 18:32:53 mwester: Paste links if you find any, :-) Jul 29 18:32:57 mwester: careful... there are some shady people out there Jul 29 18:33:46 Elrond: gstreamer apparently also uses the main message loop for its messages and I need to listen on it for certain messages (e.g. end-of-stream notifications) - however without a reference to the main loop I can't add a listener to the message queue Jul 29 18:34:13 abraxa_: You get a reference when you create it, couldn't you use that? Jul 29 18:34:34 jgm: What do you mean by 'create' exactly? Jul 29 18:34:49 g_main_loop_new () Jul 29 18:35:14 I thought about that as well but how am I going to handle GTK's main loop when creating my own? Jul 29 18:35:45 Huh, I'm confused. ;-) Jul 29 18:35:50 Well if you don't control the main loop then you should be able to get it if you have a default context Jul 29 18:36:35 g_main_loop_ref (g_main_context_default ()) Jul 29 18:36:52 Elrond: GTK creates its own message loop when you call gtk_main() - but need a reference to said loop. If I create my own loop then I can't use gtk_main() anymore, however Jul 29 18:37:10 jgm: Thanks, let me see... Jul 29 18:41:16 jgm: Hmm, for one I'm unsure whether your suggested code would work because g_main_context_default() returns a GMainContext whereas g_main_loop_ref() expects a GMainLoop as parameter Jul 29 18:43:34 Hmm... thought it was something like that, let me go check... Jul 29 18:43:39 hey! just made first outgoing and incoming calls on my neo - too bad no sound Jul 29 18:43:40 g_main_loop_ref increases the reference count. Jul 29 18:44:06 Writchie: congrats Jul 29 18:44:40 Congrats man Jul 29 18:45:20 <-- heads for dinner. Jul 29 18:45:28 Enjoy, Elrond Jul 29 18:48:03 c ya Elrond Jul 29 18:49:55 abraxa_: I think you're supposed to just create your own loop if you need it, and call the iteration function Jul 29 18:50:12 * mokobot hands ScaredyCat Jason1's neo Jul 29 18:53:33 Aria: I'm not so sure... the gstreamer manual says that one way to integrate gstreamer's message system is to "Run a GLib/Gtk+ main loop (or iterate the defauly GLib main context yourself regularly) and attach some kind of watch to the bus." Jul 29 18:54:07 My idea was to run the GTK+ main loop and attach said watch but for that I need a reference to the main loop - which GTK+ doesn't expose, apparently Jul 29 18:54:13 Hrm. Jul 29 18:54:16 Weird! Jul 29 18:54:21 Very much so... Jul 29 18:57:02 Time to go dig up some simple gst code. Jul 29 18:57:23 Hmm... yep I can't see a way of getting the main loop if you don't already know it Jul 29 18:58:17 Aria: I think I know now... gst_bus_add_watch() actually attaches a message handler to the main *context*, not the main *loop*... Jul 29 18:58:41 So actually I don't need the loop handle after all Jul 29 18:59:38 Just... can I even make use of the main context before calling gtk_main() or does gtk_main() create it? Ugh... Jul 29 19:00:08 I don't feel like writing an idle function just to run some one-time code Jul 29 19:00:24 I think gtk_main creates it Jul 29 19:00:55 Can you add handlers to the context if the loop is present? Thought you only added to to the context if there wasn't a loop... Jul 29 19:02:18 abraxa_: What's the actual message you're trying to get? Jul 29 19:04:15 Aria: I want to use the playbin bin for playback of audio streams - the playbin sends messages to the message bus that inform the application of the playback pipe's state (end-of-stream, tag data, etc) Jul 29 19:05:15 Aria: I think I found a way to make things work for me, though... let's see if I'm right :) Jul 29 19:05:16 * Aria nods. Jul 29 19:05:18 Woot! Jul 29 19:05:46 Aria, jgm: Thanks for your assistance, guys Jul 29 19:05:57 Sure thing. Jul 29 19:06:10 'learn gstreamer' is still on my todo list. Jul 29 19:06:29 Good luck, the docs are less-than-stellar Jul 29 19:07:21 Is there a GUI designer available GTK now? I thought they deprecated glade but can't remember what they were going to replace it with... Jul 29 19:07:21 ok, did anybody ordered neo1973 to quebec canada ? Jul 29 19:07:22 glLoadIdentity: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 29 19:07:48 jgm: Actually glade isn't deprecated - glade's code generation engine is Jul 29 19:08:57 yeah Jul 29 19:09:06 glade+libglade is it nowadays Jul 29 19:09:17 Okay so I just work with glade and am okay then, thanks Jul 29 19:10:48 and did anyone tried to run any voip software on it ? Jul 29 19:12:06 glLoadIdentity: Not that I know of because VoIP is pointless using GPRS Jul 29 19:13:31 abraxa_, i saw a project for porting asterisk for it.. thats why i asked.. Jul 29 19:13:45 glLoadIdentity: Sorry, no idea how far those guys have made it :) Jul 29 19:14:12 abraxa_, yeah, thats pointless unless there is the wifi.. Jul 29 19:20:00 jgm: glade generats a xml file you have to load on startup of your application Jul 29 19:20:04 I would be more interested in twinkle on it. ;-) Jul 29 19:20:38 jgm: the old glade-way, eg generating code, is deprecated Jul 29 19:20:49 Elrond: how was dinner? Jul 29 19:21:20 noon - Fine. Jul 29 19:22:17 jgm: I don't know if libglade is availeable on the openmoko Jul 29 19:22:40 jgm: I used pygtk sofar and it worked nicely Jul 29 19:22:48 It's not on the default install. Nor is it build on buildhost. :-( Jul 29 19:23:14 Elrond: so it's do-it-yourself? Jul 29 19:23:24 Oh, wait. Jul 29 19:23:32 I'm wrong. It's there on buildhost. Jul 29 19:23:44 noon: I'm coding in C so pygtk won't help me. Jul 29 19:24:00 Yes, the C bindings are on buildhost. Jul 29 19:24:21 I don't know, if it's in the default rootfs. Jul 29 19:24:28 you can push-to-talk with gprs but that's it Jul 29 19:25:14 abraxa_, glLoadIdentity, there's bluetooth (and even USB) connectivity that can be voip-usable. Sure, not as widespread as wifi, but may be useful at home/work/stuff, and for voip devel. Jul 29 19:25:47 jgm: that's why i said "I used" and not "you should use" ;-) Jul 29 19:26:33 jgm: One of the OM2007 apps uses libglade as far as I remember so it should be available Jul 29 19:26:34 Jul 29 19:27:04 you boys! how many happy neo owners on the channel already ?-) Jul 29 19:27:06 mjr, yeah, thats possible as well.. Jul 29 19:27:10 yo* Jul 29 19:27:19 girls also.. ^^ Jul 29 19:27:32 any other genders? Jul 29 19:28:05 got sound working now, i mean feedback only - who do I sue for ear damage? Jul 29 19:28:10 I'll probably have a bluetooth network available at both home and work, myself... Jul 29 19:28:12 genderless maybe Jul 29 19:28:33 Writchie, there was a disclaimer already 4 months ago Jul 29 19:28:46 nothing in the box Jul 29 19:29:24 warning!!! do not test using headset on other end Jul 29 19:29:28 * xkr47 was not very serious, but there was some comment about "boy they are loud" Jul 29 19:29:51 seriously, i don't think these meet GSM spec Jul 29 19:30:01 need to test max spl Jul 29 19:30:37 SpeedEvil - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/941848609/in/set-72157600610900691/ (and the previous/next pic. Enlarge for the png) Jul 29 19:30:39 i think i will go for a neo1973 .. Jul 29 19:30:56 does someone have a good ressource avout gtk themes? Jul 29 19:30:59 -v+b Jul 29 19:31:57 noon gtk.org Jul 29 19:36:37 roh. thank you. but it didn't solve my problem Jul 29 19:42:33 noon i would advice to ignore any current state of software and especially polishing work like themeing till the software works and is 'done' basically Jul 29 19:46:01 roh: your are to late. Jul 29 19:46:37 I'm trying to get this grey border awa around gtkentry in the current std. theme Jul 29 19:46:42 +y Jul 29 19:48:19 the theme for the horizontal scrollbar i have already fixed Jul 29 19:49:58 roh: do you know where the gray color for the background of the gtkentry field comes from? Jul 29 19:50:17 nope.. ive no clue about gtk themeing Jul 29 19:50:18 I tried to override it in the theme file, but nothing happend Jul 29 19:50:39 but i know that some things there will be changing soon. Jul 29 19:51:39 roh - noon knows. Jul 29 19:52:02 Elrond good :) Jul 29 19:52:12 roh: but i don't think they will completly discard the old theme Jul 29 19:52:38 roh - We already saw the new theme ;-) Jul 29 19:53:35 hello Jul 29 19:54:14 hello? Jul 29 19:54:15 pivs_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 29 19:55:11 The problem with artificial intelligence is that it tries to overgeneralize from a single bit. Jul 29 19:55:51 anyone try the new1973? Jul 29 19:56:23 pivs_ - A few people in here, yes. Jul 29 19:56:36 pivs_ - It's "neo", not "new" Jul 29 19:56:50 excellent! i've only seen pictures. Jul 29 19:57:06 right 'neo1973', sorry. Jul 29 19:58:22 pivs_ - It's currently for developers, really. Jul 29 19:58:49 not quite iphone level yet? Jul 29 19:59:00 Not quite phone call level yet. Jul 29 19:59:02 Got some way to go. Jul 29 19:59:15 handset - 6 months Jul 29 19:59:20 iphone - 1 year Jul 29 20:00:06 1 year is slightly optimistic. Jul 29 20:00:12 workable for phone calls maybe 1 month Jul 29 20:00:17 SpeedEvil - You saw the pics? Jul 29 20:00:19 in hands of developer that is Jul 29 20:00:47 no Jul 29 20:01:03 ah Jul 29 20:01:09 what i really want to see is how it compares to the palm linux phone that's supposed to be out next year. Jul 29 20:01:13 * SpeedEvil backscrolls Jul 29 20:01:35 if you want to compare wait until both exist Jul 29 20:01:38 It doesn't really compare to anything right now because very few phones you can buy today require you to type in command-line commands to make a phone call. Jul 29 20:02:35 that's true writchie Jul 29 20:02:43 compares best to a wrt box with usb Jul 29 20:03:18 Elrond: interesting. Jul 29 20:05:24 i'm on the website and it says it's running a 266mhz cpu with a 1200mah, anyone know the battery life on it? Jul 29 20:05:36 pivs_: to be determined. Jul 29 20:05:45 Power usage reduction is still in the works. Jul 29 20:05:50 The software side especially. Jul 29 20:05:51 Battery life is wholly dependant on power managment. Jul 29 20:06:00 Power managment is almost entirely missing. Jul 29 20:06:18 ergg Jul 29 20:06:27 Hey, it's a developer preview right now Jul 29 20:06:33 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management Jul 29 20:06:38 To get the OS and a real device out there to develop for Jul 29 20:06:42 It doesn't do any power management afaik now. Jul 29 20:06:49 A nokia 1100 will be a _considerably_ better phone right now. Jul 29 20:06:54 And for some months. Jul 29 20:07:04 + even when most of the things get done, I'll bet every now and them ppl are gonna come out with new hacks :) Jul 29 20:07:47 nice talkin' openmoko with you guys, see you later. Jul 29 20:07:53 wacve Jul 29 20:08:11 The backlight turns on and off. Jul 29 20:08:28 That's actually the big item in terms of running power managment. Jul 29 20:08:51 btw - the display is very nice and bright Jul 29 20:09:04 But that's one of seven kernel power managment interfaces complete. Jul 29 20:09:10 (see the above page) Jul 29 20:09:46 To be honest, never ending power tweaking is what I'm counting on. Jul 29 20:09:56 s/interfaces/options/ Jul 29 20:10:00 Well. Jul 29 20:10:08 There is a sharply finite limit. Jul 29 20:10:32 Once the above seven are done, and the userspace knows how to work them, there is little left to do. Jul 29 20:10:32 Elrond: what value/paket did you plot? Jul 29 20:11:01 noon: that's a plot of the doppler shift of the satellite. Jul 29 20:11:20 Or ratehr - the doppler shift that the GPS reciever is set to. Jul 29 20:11:57 In order to track it Jul 29 20:13:57 Add some "we-think-it-to-be" somewhere. ;-) Jul 29 20:14:49 SpeedEvil: so this is the value Elrond did set the dopplershift to and got the highest signal strengh? Jul 29 20:14:59 No. Jul 29 20:15:05 Is from gllin. Jul 29 20:15:14 I extracted the value from a 20MB strace. Jul 29 20:20:02 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Ruggedized]] [[Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Alternate_colours/materials]] [[Devirginator/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[P1_Owners]] [[User:Enodev]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Braunschweig]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] Jul 29 20:27:33 Elrond: Are the .dat's available somewhere? Jul 29 20:30:46 SpeedEvil - I can mail them or msg you a temporary url. Jul 29 20:30:59 Either works. Jul 29 20:31:22 eek. last phone shipped is up to #2540 Jul 29 20:33:16 *arg* I need to fix that one webserver. :-( Jul 29 20:33:27 dcc works too Jul 29 20:33:40 Hmm, yeah. let's use dcc. Jul 29 20:34:33 that's ok; mine shipped, but is going on a tour of the US before I'm allowed to have it: http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processInputRequest?Requester=UPSHome&loc=en_US&HTMLVersion=5.0&tracknum=1Z5VX0380251715251 Jul 29 20:34:38 thanks Jul 29 20:35:06 Where does the image end up after make openmoko-devel-imaeg? Jul 29 20:35:08 image* Jul 29 20:35:09 daMaestro: What the heck? Iowa to Colorado? Jul 29 20:35:20 sagacis, i know.. it really makes no sense Jul 29 20:35:38 To Denver? Gotta love the hub-spoke system Jul 29 20:35:50 You could have driven there and picked it up by now Jul 29 20:35:58 very much so Jul 29 20:36:19 And that's after the "Incorrect routing" Jul 29 20:36:46 You better not have to pay UPS for this level of 2nd day air Jul 29 20:36:55 It's like second-try air Jul 29 20:37:06 Anyone know the bitbake where the first initscripts that run on first boot are? Jul 29 20:37:17 yeah, i sent a message to open moko requesting that they should ask for a refund Jul 29 20:37:23 and give me the money Jul 29 20:37:30 daxxar: did you find it yet? In build/tmp/deploy/images Jul 29 20:37:49 Hm, the build seems to try to patch mtd-utils when it doesn't actually need to be patched. Jul 29 20:37:51 You need to contact UPS directly. Jul 29 20:38:01 daMaestro: Now it's in your hands. Jul 29 20:38:26 oh, ok... i'll contact UPS then Jul 29 20:38:33 arcanericky: Thanks. :-) Jul 29 20:39:24 make build-package-qemu fails when patching the package Jul 29 20:39:30 Hunk #1 FAILED at 482. Jul 29 20:41:03 daxxar: Hm. I built qemu just this morning. I'll try again. Jul 29 20:42:43 daxxar: Oops. I just rebuilt it using an old repository version. I'm rebuilding now to see what happens - might have to go run an errand while it's going though, so you may not hear back from me for a bit. Jul 29 20:42:51 Ok Jul 29 20:44:19 daxxar: will be back after while - could be a bit. Updating and building now. I expect I'll get the same error as you. Jul 29 20:44:20 Elrond: know you - maybe - know where the dopplershift has to be set? Jul 29 20:45:29 noon: it's set in a register by gllin - per satellite. Jul 29 20:45:31 daMaestro: what rt # were you? Jul 29 20:45:39 1964 Jul 29 20:45:43 oh pft Jul 29 20:45:46 one of the first. :p Jul 29 20:46:51 SpeedEvil: yes I know. but does he not now know which register he has to set for the dopplershift? Jul 29 20:46:59 Yes. Jul 29 20:47:10 The fun part is the interaction of all the registers. Jul 29 20:47:23 At the moment, it's looking at what the included driver does. Jul 29 20:47:27 yes, but this is not so easy Jul 29 20:47:54 SpeedEvil: I know. I have done some hacking with Elrond Jul 29 20:48:43 SpeedEvil: but I'm not uptodate about the latest news Jul 29 20:48:50 i think i'm going to take a crack at a cpufreq driver to get speed control working Jul 29 20:48:58 :) Jul 29 20:49:00 it sounds like we can do 67.5mhz just fine Jul 29 20:49:04 happycube: hardware or not? Jul 29 20:49:12 happycube: is that the lowest? Jul 29 20:49:30 the lowest is something like 12.5 but you lose periphs <60mhz Jul 29 20:49:32 at least the lcd Jul 29 20:49:36 (with a 12M external clock) Jul 29 20:50:00 i pulled up the pdf and found the clock selection table and uboot sets 266 according to that Jul 29 20:50:18 so i'm grafting harald's uboot code and the sa1110 cpufrq driver Jul 29 20:50:25 happycube: is 12 the absolute minimum - even with tthe other clock? Jul 29 20:50:34 with a lower clock (which the neo does not have) Jul 29 20:50:39 i'm not sure Jul 29 20:50:44 there's an idle mode which halts the cpu Jul 29 20:50:51 while everything else runs Jul 29 20:51:04 i wanted to go for the easy power saving ;) Jul 29 20:51:19 should be able to drop 1.8v a bit at 66 Jul 29 20:51:31 Indeed. Do you have hardware? Jul 29 20:51:36 yup! Jul 29 20:51:40 got mine on friday Jul 29 20:51:55 You've seen the todo list on the powersaving page :) Jul 29 20:52:03 power mgmt annoyed me - i was going to demo it to someone and it was dead Jul 29 20:52:11 thankfully i had a nokia and the bl-4c works ;0 Jul 29 20:52:15 Hehe Jul 29 20:52:17 i saw that Jul 29 20:52:33 4c is just a thinner 5c Jul 29 20:52:49 ok i'm heading out for a bit - have fun! Jul 29 20:52:54 Ta Jul 29 21:16:49 noon - I know the register for doppler. At least for what I believe is doppler. So the idea is to extract the values from a gllin trace and compare them to expected values. And SpeedEvil is doing the latter part now, I hope. Jul 29 21:17:38 does nmea/gllin provide the dopplershift? Jul 29 21:17:58 nmea: No. Jul 29 21:18:27 so he looks where the satellite is and calc the doppler? Jul 29 21:18:35 Right. Jul 29 21:18:55 nice math question Jul 29 21:18:58 He has some orbit data in some astro-soft. Jul 29 21:18:59 Elrond: preliminary results = :) Jul 29 21:19:30 wooo. SpeedEvil what astro-software do you use? Jul 29 21:19:40 xephem. Jul 29 21:20:32 SpeedEvil - Wee.. Jul 29 21:21:57 Elrond: http://www.mauve.plus.com/gps.gif Jul 29 21:22:34 Which is a plot of - thin lines - strace doppler outputs - and the big symbols are computed doppler Jul 29 21:22:35 Elrond: xephem is not in debian? is it free? Jul 29 21:23:39 Elrond: I think -328 * the doppler number is pretty close to the doppler in meters/second (with + being towards you) Jul 29 21:23:56 SpeedEvil: the two datasets are really close Jul 29 21:24:22 Indeed :) Jul 29 21:25:05 SpeedEvil - You mean the other way round: HH-value = -328 * doppler_in_meter_per_second, right? Jul 29 21:25:23 Um - yes. Jul 29 21:25:27 Or HH/-328 Jul 29 21:26:38 Did you try to plot single PRNs? One of the reasons I only put one PRN per .png was that the whole thing was hard to see otherwise. Jul 29 21:27:02 Yes, but that's not really worthwhile - as it may be a false match Jul 29 21:27:06 IMO Jul 29 21:27:24 "false match"? Jul 29 21:27:34 Curve fitting by chance. Jul 29 21:27:47 Ahh, you mean the -328? Jul 29 21:27:56 All of the three fitting with the same multiplier is a really good indication that it's a real result. Jul 29 21:28:10 Ahh, yes. Jul 29 21:28:56 Well, the idea is to use the same -328, but plot things for one PRN, creating three pics. ;-) Jul 29 21:30:26 BTW: Why the *30 ? Jul 29 21:30:56 because the gps file has the range-rate numbers 30s apart. Jul 29 21:31:10 Ahhh. Just found it. :) Jul 29 21:31:19 Oh - hang on. The doppler numbers were 1s apart? Jul 29 21:31:30 daxxar: Hunk failed at 482 also. Jul 29 21:31:43 Err, no. Jul 29 21:31:47 Doesn't matter. Jul 29 21:31:54 arcanericky: Hm, okay Jul 29 21:33:47 daxxar: But I don't think I've ever built the 'build-package-qemu' before. Just the 'build-qemu' and 'run-qemu' Try those instead. Jul 29 21:34:48 I checked on PSP holster's a while ago, and most are really too large for the neo. Does anyone have other suggestions for carrying the phone on the belt? Jul 29 21:34:52 Oh, build-qemu. Jul 29 21:37:46 Elrond: I think _some_ of the error may be local clock drift. Jul 29 21:40:06 how exact is the HH clock? Jul 29 21:40:28 It should be using a VCXO. Jul 29 21:40:38 So the raw accuracy is probably around 1PPM. Jul 29 21:41:21 1 part per million? Jul 29 21:41:26 yes Jul 29 21:41:31 * CM|Vacation cheers for the shipping number Jul 29 21:41:49 I didn't know you could calculate accuracy like that Jul 29 21:42:04 Vegar - It's typical for clocks. Jul 29 21:42:25 Vegar - You can read it as: "Goes 1 second wrong after one million seconds". Jul 29 21:42:53 Or 31 seconds per year. ;) Jul 29 21:43:01 ah Jul 29 21:43:06 yes, true Jul 29 21:43:16 Elrond: Heh, I just typed that into google to see how many seconds it was in a year Jul 29 21:43:33 CM|Vacation - *G* Jul 29 21:43:33 30Ms in a year Jul 29 21:43:39 on Jul 29 21:43:41 h Jul 29 21:43:56 Google says 1 year = 31 556 926 seconds Jul 29 21:44:12 pi*1e7 ;o) Jul 29 21:45:30 Bye! I'm off to bed.. :) Jul 29 21:45:56 1ppm sounds quite good for VCXO. Jul 29 21:47:44 ballpark. Jul 29 21:47:55 I wouldn't be shocked at 5ppm Jul 29 21:48:31 Yeah. Jul 29 21:48:46 I'd currently guess at worse. Jul 29 21:49:56 A week ago (or so), I started gllin, let it get a fix (and thus time), then took the neo back indoors to my desktop (where it doesn't get any SV) and after a few hours the time in the NMEA output was quite wrong. Jul 29 21:50:52 hello Jul 29 21:51:25 Which one the nice side means, that there are even simple things to improve over gllin. ;o) Jul 29 21:51:37 The RTC in the PMU feels quite stable. Jul 29 21:52:15 one would actually also hope that the final proprietary gllin is better, not to imply that the RE isn't a Good Thing Jul 29 21:52:21 Looking at the line plot "2.dat" using 1:(($0*10)+($2-32000)) with dots, "8.dat" using 1:(($0*40)+($2-320000)) with dots, "26.dat" using 1:(($0*12)+($2-450000)) with dots Jul 29 21:52:47 there are moderately clear correlations in the way the three traces jump around at least some of the time. Jul 29 21:53:16 (This is just an approximate fit to get them on the same screen) Jul 29 21:55:52 Huh, strange. Jul 29 22:00:37 Elrond: what were the initial doppler attempts again? Jul 29 22:02:05 hi, i just discovered the openmoko stuff and it looks absolutely stunning. 1) if I want to dev apps for this mobile, do I need to buy an advanced mode ? Jul 29 22:02:06 (0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, 4, -4) * 105k Jul 29 22:02:06 deconvolution: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 29 22:02:13 SpeedEvil - (0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, 4, -4) * 105k Jul 29 22:04:03 SpeedEvil - So that's (using 328): (0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, 4, -4) * 320 m/s Jul 29 22:04:21 at the moment deconvolution, getting apps into the image is a bit... obscure. BryceLeo is working on a crash course, and I'd suggest first of all checking this page out: "http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile" Jul 29 22:04:21 oh yeah, once more, were someone to send me a gllin without me actually asking anyone to do such a naughty thing, the act would remain strictly confidential Jul 29 22:05:24 understood mjr Jul 29 22:05:57 deconvolution - You can develop apps on your desktop, and then run them straight on the device. Jul 29 22:06:21 (my e-mail happens to be mjr@iki.fi were one prone to sending me a message about not having gllin) Jul 29 22:06:39 Elrond: that is the way I am looking for. Jul 29 22:08:07 deconvolution - Don't expect too much CPU power though. It's comparable to a 100MHZ Pentium. Jul 29 22:08:24 Elrond: that's sane - going up to about 1200m/s, which is about the max of the permitted legal velocity for a GPS to report from, and the satellite velocity. Jul 29 22:08:48 max sat velocity Jul 29 22:09:10 SpeedEvil - Ahh... 500m/s for the legal limit... adding 500m/s for the sat's speed. Yeah. Jul 29 22:10:29 does anyone know whats happened with BryceLeo? Jul 29 22:10:31 ditto Jul 29 22:10:47 SpeedEvil - All values I've seen so far (for static neos) are in the -220k .. 220k range, which seems to fit fine also. So that's about (+/-)670 m/s for the dopplers, using 328. Jul 29 22:11:02 ditto Jul 29 22:11:56 - Jul 29 22:13:41 i accept mail by accident to wally.ritchie@gmail.com Jul 29 22:14:00 if it has arm binaries Jul 29 22:14:27 *g* Jul 29 22:14:35 * SpeedEvil dumps alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.arms to Writchie. Jul 29 22:14:50 <-- has a "hello world" arm binary Jul 29 22:14:55 * ZerothCloned laughs. Jul 29 22:16:16 does anyone know if the gui phone calls have been stabilized any? Jul 29 22:16:28 actually.. i'd rather know where the source repo is so i can just read the logs Jul 29 22:16:35 (i think it's in svn somewhere) Jul 29 22:16:38 Real neo owners use AT commands! :) Jul 29 22:16:53 * SpeedEvil is moderately interested in that answer too. Jul 29 22:16:53 yeah yeah, i will be it sounds like; but i would really prefer to work on fixing bugs Jul 29 22:17:38 i know the qemu device is in svn; but i'm not sure about the openmoko platform Jul 29 22:17:59 i actually hope it's in git (which is something i took from a few days ago and issues with the mokomakefile) Jul 29 22:19:45 It's all in svn. Jul 29 22:20:42 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Ruggedized]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] Jul 29 22:20:49 blah, well where is the repo, Elrond ? Jul 29 22:20:56 daMaestro - http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/ Jul 29 22:21:03 thanks Jul 29 22:21:18 daMaestro - That's where the stuff is, that is supposed to run on the neo. Jul 29 22:21:42 daMaestro - IF you want to compile for the neo, try MokoMakefile and get a fast box. ;-) Jul 29 22:22:09 meh, yeah... i'll be packaging up openembedded and all of the needed tools to build openmoko for fedora here soon Jul 29 22:22:14 as soon as i actually get my device Jul 29 22:22:36 i've got the qemu device all packaged up; but just can't justify the time when i don't have have a device to build for Jul 29 22:22:59 hehe, yeah. Jul 29 22:23:25 I started to use MokoMakefile just about two weeks after getting the device. ;) Jul 29 22:24:05 SpeedEvil - Can you post on sphyrna-devel, what we found out? Jul 29 22:24:12 Elrond: K Jul 29 22:24:20 Elrond: Some 1/2 hour Jul 29 22:24:40 wow! Free calls - http://callfree.point-serv.com/en Jul 29 22:25:14 SpeedEvil - No panic. I think, we just should inform the other people / have some docs until someone gets to the point of adding the info to the wiki. :-) Jul 29 22:26:05 Hmm, sirf binary doesn't seem to have dopplers in it. :-| Jul 29 22:26:17 lol.. fsking spammers Jul 29 22:27:09 Elrond: does it have psuedorange? Jul 29 22:27:20 SpeedEvil - I think, it has. Jul 29 22:27:38 SpeedEvil: i think. but i'm going to checkit now Jul 29 22:27:41 Elrond: The easy way would be for me to generate a months or so data for your position. Jul 29 22:27:52 If that's why you're looking for it. Jul 29 22:28:42 SpeedEvil - Well, I'm looking for it, to create very (time wise) closely locked doppler data. Jul 29 22:29:21 Shipping is going to continue next week I hope? Jul 29 22:32:56 Elrond: sirf3 message id 28 Jul 29 22:33:21 Elrond: there is Pseudorange, Carrier Frequency Jul 29 22:34:06 And doppler is psuedorange change/second - modulo local clock errors. Jul 29 22:34:49 SpeedEvil: it should give use the carrier freq. Jul 29 22:35:16 this must be base feq +- dopplershift Jul 29 22:36:02 Elrond: I think my receiver will give use the message Jul 29 22:37:45 noon - We can try next sunday :-) Jul 29 22:38:46 Elrond: sunday? Jul 29 22:39:02 noon - I have an apointment on saturday. ;) Jul 29 22:39:22 Elrond: woo ;o) Jul 29 22:39:37 Anyway. Jul 29 22:40:05 bye Jul 29 22:42:36 Good night people. :) Jul 29 22:43:45 I don't know if alloril's script has already mentioned this message, but take a look at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/gsmd-devel/2007-July/000133.html Jul 29 23:00:06 hey BryceLeo, done your thinking? Jul 29 23:01:53 cesarb, yeah.. that is why i've been not *so* upset that UPS gave my phone a tour of the US Jul 29 23:01:55 Elrond: mail away. Jul 29 23:02:05 cesarb, it's just like... oh; maybe someone else will fix it first Jul 29 23:02:05 lol Jul 29 23:02:29 np: Bob the coder - Can he fix it? Jul 29 23:03:19 Yes he can! Jul 29 23:15:28 ZerothCloned: sort of, i'm munching on the rest of dinner and going over what i've got so far Jul 29 23:17:32 ZerothCloned: you getting the PM's Jul 29 23:37:01 any news about production runs? eg. has the first run been soldout and when is the next run? Jul 29 23:39:22 Nothing explicit. Jul 29 23:39:40 ooh... explicit hardware news... *drools* Jul 29 23:40:22 can we get, like, photos with the case taken off? Jul 29 23:40:41 I want pictures of the inside of the front of the case! Jul 29 23:41:15 what, you mean like full frontal type stuff? Jul 29 23:41:36 what would the Neo's mom say? Jul 29 23:42:24 lmfao Jul 29 23:42:38 there should be a wiki hall of fame quotes Jul 29 23:43:12 or just post to bash? Jul 29 23:43:38 hmmmm... that could work too but bash has one hell of a backlog Jul 29 23:45:16 Hi, Is it the general consensus that AT&T SIM cards will not work in a new1973, or has someone gotten one to work? Jul 29 23:45:17 Taco: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Jul 29 23:46:18 I don't know, but knowing At&T(and their penchant for monopolys) they likely use custom sim cards Jul 29 23:47:02 and it seems to only be the latest ones @Taco Jul 29 23:47:06 Taco: i have no doubts that the devs will get the sims working Jul 29 23:47:17 Thanks - is it known for certain that generic T-Mobile SIMs work? Jul 29 23:47:54 I made a call with my t-mobile sim, the sound was messed up, but I the modem seemed to be working Jul 29 23:48:32 to clarify: I could here voices from the other end, but there was a high pitch sound over the top throughout the call Jul 29 23:48:43 Taco: my phone works great with a t-mobile sim, and refuses w/ any cingular/att sim Jul 29 23:49:03 Thanks - I guess I'll need to switch providers." Jul 29 23:49:06 sound quality was great for me Jul 29 23:49:13 rushforth: that should be just a drive issue that will get sorted out Jul 29 23:49:21 but unfortunately gsmd is not stable yet Jul 29 23:49:57 driver issue you mean? Jul 29 23:50:10 i hope its not he sim card reader.. the pin-outs on the cingular sim are slightly different.. Jul 29 23:50:32 as in.. the t-mobile sim has more segregation between the contacts, the cingular has one area that is solid (no segregation) Jul 29 23:51:54 rushforth: shouldn't matter too much the interface is standard Jul 29 23:52:08 BryceLeo: We hope :) Jul 29 23:52:16 rushforth: haha i'll give you that one Jul 29 23:54:16 rushforth: if you can use that AT&T sim in a t-mobile phone then it's just a driver issue, if not then... well we'll see what we can fix Jul 29 23:56:02 BryceLeo: I can use the t-mobile sim in either phone. I can only use the att sim in the att phone. Jul 29 23:56:43 But there does at least seem to be a general consensus that AT&T cards don't currently work in a neo1973. I had been worried there might have been a hardware problem with my phone. Jul 29 23:56:48 has anyone been able to use att with the neo? Jul 29 23:57:04 oh noes, i was looking at att over tmobile Jul 29 23:57:04 daMaestro: good question Jul 29 23:57:05 can anyone use an ATT sim with a TMobile, or other carrier phone? Jul 29 23:57:08 that's the big question Jul 29 23:57:13 if you can then OM will be able to for sure Jul 29 23:57:21 agreed Jul 29 23:57:55 could we be at the 5v vs 3.3v issue? Jul 29 23:58:06 daMaestro: i believe that we are Jul 29 23:58:34 the chipset handles 3 and 1.8V sims. no 5V ones. Jul 29 23:58:34 daMaestro: it should be fixable though, i'd even imagine that firmware might be able to fix that Jul 29 23:58:48 i know of no current phones which can provide 5V Jul 29 23:59:09 last one from siemens was the S25 from about 5 years ago or so Jul 29 23:59:10 roh: ohh well that's a problem Jul 29 23:59:21 roh: you have any ideas about the ATT sims Jul 29 23:59:44 why would you prefer AT&T over t-mobile? t-mobile is much more reasonable. Jul 29 23:59:46 BryceLeo there seems to be a problem, but i do not know details yet. Jul 29 23:59:47 I also wonder if anyone has tried the older 32k att/cingular sims.. Jul 30 00:00:31 roh: ok, i guess we're all inthat boat Jul 30 00:00:33 mellon: at least here in usa, cingular/att has far better 3g coverage (of course thats irrelevant to the neo, but if one already had service) Jul 30 00:00:35 I'll be happy to switch to T-Mobile, if it is know AT&T SIMs don't currently work. I'd rather switch than wait for a possible fix. Jul 30 00:00:44 BryceLeo but the times that phones had 5V sims are long gone. no also a razr cannot provide 5V anymore Jul 30 00:00:50 dunno, I use t-mobile, and haven't had issues with edge coverage. Jul 30 00:01:12 edge != 3g Jul 30 00:01:18 Is anybody else having intermittent problems where svn.openmoko.org doesn't resolve? Jul 30 00:01:18 is a password required to join the openmoko-devel room? I can't get in Jul 30 00:01:30 mellon: I'm not having problems Jul 30 00:01:31 Oh, well, if you want something beyond EDGE, you're SOL with openmoko anyway. Jul 30 00:01:40 yup Jul 30 00:01:47 mellon its gprs, not edge Jul 30 00:01:49 It's not failing consistently, but it's failing often enough that my build keeps stopping. Jul 30 00:01:52 but if one already had service with a 3g phone, it would explain the att choice ;) Jul 30 00:01:53 I know, roh. Jul 30 00:02:03 ok.. well a quick google shows that att does like to use the 5v sims Jul 30 00:02:38 that's a bit antediluvian Jul 30 00:02:51 TTL Logic! Jul 30 00:03:39 however, on every thread i have read so far, you can go request a 3v sim Jul 30 00:03:50 daMaestro my last personal 5V sim was issued 7 years ago :) they just suck too much power so providers do not like them Jul 30 00:04:04 when did CMOS start getting used in new designs in preference to TTL? some time in the 80s? Jul 30 00:04:08 all usim (3g capable) are 1.8 or 2.9 ones Jul 30 00:04:31 LOL @ 5v SIMS , VERY 1980'S Jul 30 00:04:35 Late 1970s, I think. But they were sloooooow. Jul 30 00:05:12 actually not 1980's either I used cmos ttl during that decade too Jul 30 00:05:13 okay, HCMOS then Jul 30 00:06:21 bradpitcher: openmoko-devel isn't public Jul 30 00:06:26 always add your own 5V rail Jul 30 00:07:06 i think i had to get a new sim about 5 years ago because my shiny new handspring visorphone needed a 3v sim. the original sim dated from around 97 Jul 30 00:07:20 Which SIM voltages can the neo use? I can see there's 5V (which it obviously can't use), 3V and 1.8V Jul 30 00:07:42 * cesarb wonders which voltage do Claro's SIMs use Jul 30 00:08:23 roh: why would providers care? Jul 30 00:08:44 doc|home because they want to sell cheaper phones with bigger standbytime. Jul 30 00:08:56 doc|home users which whave empty batterys generate no airtime Jul 30 00:09:13 I thought all the 5V sims went out of fashion years back, Im surprised you can still get them Jul 30 00:09:24 meh, I'd have thought they wouldn't care :) Jul 30 00:09:34 telecomms companies-- Jul 30 00:09:48 linux_galore they are. and no recent phones i know of can handle them Jul 30 00:10:24 doc|home they don't care. they just care that users can generate airtime. so 5V sims do not help them Jul 30 00:10:30 * doc|home nods Jul 30 00:10:59 I find that the GUI dialer on my neo1973 behaves exactly the same way with or without the AT&T SIM installed. Is there a shell level command I can execute to see if the neo has successfully accessed the SIM? Jul 30 00:11:44 Taco: maybe try libgsmd-tool -m atcmd, and try AT+CIMI Jul 30 00:11:44 tcltk dialer heh Jul 30 00:16:27 abraxa_: so, just core developers then? Jul 30 00:20:08 bradpitcher: Yeah, because of NDAs Jul 30 00:20:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Tagging]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Jul 30 00:20:39 abraxa_: got it, thanks Jul 30 00:21:16 bradpitcher: And just in case you're wondering - I'm not in there either :) Jul 30 00:21:26 :) Jul 30 00:23:16 rushforth: Thanks for the suggestion of libgsmd-tool. Is there a description somewhere of the commands which may be given after you've entered atcmd? Jul 30 00:24:19 Taco: maybe start here Jul 30 00:24:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM Jul 30 00:24:32 Thanks. Jul 30 00:24:44 np, and gl! Jul 30 00:47:18 so does gsmd work or not? Jul 30 00:47:33 or are the gui issues due to some dbus problems? or other? Jul 30 00:48:13 Well, gsmd actually aborts a couple of minutes after the neo boots. Jul 30 00:48:58 When I run it interactively, the last message is "modem alive!" Jul 30 00:49:26 for me, gsmd can make outgoing calls repeatedly, without issue (using cmdline).. Jul 30 00:49:29 happycube: Seen http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Unresolved_Hardware_Questions - how to measure current Jul 30 00:49:34 however, i can only receive one incoming call before gsm fails Jul 30 00:50:21 usually with gsm_fd error, or else gsmd crashes alltogether, or else load is pegged, and gsmd needs to be killed Jul 30 00:50:46 rushforth: what alsactl file are you using? Jul 30 00:50:55 /etc/alsa/gsmhandset.state Jul 30 00:51:27 or, /etc/alsa/gsmheadset.state (with bundled headset plugged in) Jul 30 00:51:40 the one that comes with the image, or the opensource.wolfsonmicro.com one? Jul 30 00:51:49 one that comes with a recent image Jul 30 00:52:02 oh cool... I hope i didn't overwrite it Jul 30 00:52:18 will mp3 playing work with that one as well? Jul 30 00:52:28 no Jul 30 00:52:34 /etc/alsa/stereoout.state for that Jul 30 00:52:42 I see, thanks Jul 30 00:52:47 np :) Jul 30 00:53:39 yeah, I definitely overwrote it with the opensource.wolfsonmicro.com one, I hope it works as well Jul 30 00:53:49 it's from february 2007 Jul 30 00:54:08 worst case you could probably re-write it with a new one over ssh, or just reflash the whole device Jul 30 00:54:56 oh of course, I can just get it from svn and scp it over Jul 30 00:55:06 yeah, worst case reflash Jul 30 00:55:56 anyone been able to mount the phone using sshfs? Jul 30 00:56:04 haven't tried Jul 30 00:56:15 i tried w/o success.. back to scp for now Jul 30 00:57:22 yeah, scp is working fine Jul 30 00:57:36 so, the one incoming call works great, then when you receive a second one gsm crashes? Jul 30 00:57:57 how do you get it back up? sudo /etc/init.d/gsmd restart? Jul 30 00:58:04 that has worked one time for me :) Jul 30 00:58:05 oops, -sudo Jul 30 00:58:11 other times ive had to reboot it entirely Jul 30 00:58:17 oh, yikes Jul 30 00:58:22 it seems like the modem gets confused or something after the incoming call Jul 30 00:58:40 have you tried a powerdown/powerup? Jul 30 00:58:49 sounds like a phone a father would give his teenage daughter 1 call then crashes Jul 30 00:58:51 dang I need to get another SIM card to play with Jul 30 00:58:55 hahaha Jul 30 00:58:55 a few times, gsmd has just shot the load way up, and ive had to kill it, othertimes i get gsm_fd error when accessing it Jul 30 00:59:36 allot of new phones coming out of Korea over the next few weeks Jul 30 00:59:57 is there room to put in a debugging version of gsmd? so we can see whats going on? Jul 30 01:00:14 although in samsungs case Im not really impressed they seem to be me too Nokia clones Jul 30 01:00:21 i thought gsmd was closed source? Jul 30 01:00:34 not sure, but there is /tmp/gsm.log Jul 30 01:00:41 i think the kmod is, but not the gsmd Jul 30 01:00:43 gsmd is open Jul 30 01:00:57 it sends commands which may not be publicly documented Jul 30 01:01:01 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd#Usage Jul 30 01:01:09 to be interpreted byt a fully closed hardware device Jul 30 01:01:17 in the bugzilla, there is bugs: 385 and 574 which could be applicable Jul 30 01:01:19 but gsmd itself isn't proprietary Jul 30 01:01:22 ah, the kmod. Jul 30 01:01:22 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: GTA02 Board only option in October? Jul 30 01:01:34 * ferric reads Jul 30 01:02:11 aaah save a few $$$ and just buy the new internals Jul 30 01:03:01 you can't.. Jul 30 01:03:06 linux_galore: did you actually look at the email? Jul 30 01:03:29 it appears that you're not saving much and have a high chance of destroying the gta01 Jul 30 01:05:18 ferric, daMaestro, there are no proprietary kernel modules in openmoko Jul 30 01:05:26 (Harald would strangle Sean) Jul 30 01:05:43 so, ? Jul 30 01:05:54 mjr: oh, i thought the gsm stuff had to be closed or something. Jul 30 01:05:57 what? i thought the gsm stack was a binary blob? Jul 30 01:06:02 well, I assumed you meant kernel module by kmod Jul 30 01:06:02 (script) planet: Jim "jserv" Huang: 23 Apr 2007 http://www.advogato.org/person/jserv/diary.html?start=6 Jul 30 01:06:24 ah the firmware in the actual gsm module is a binary blob Jul 30 01:06:30 is the proprietary gsm stack at the firmware level? Jul 30 01:06:30 yes, the gsm stack is closed. It is also not a part of OpenMoko nor does it run on the application processor Jul 30 01:06:35 yes, firmware Jul 30 01:06:43 ah, ok; thanks. Jul 30 01:08:01 there is only the userspace agps driver gllin that is proprietary in openmoko; the neo is the piece that contains some more proprietary stuff, eg. in the gsm, bluetooth and come next model wifi chips Jul 30 01:08:05 but gsmd can talk to the firmware? Jul 30 01:08:34 by way of the tty interface the firmware presents, yes Jul 30 01:08:42 ferric, the gsm chips is essentially a standard GSM modem behind a serial line from OpenMoko's/gsmd's perspective Jul 30 01:08:42 ie. the gsm shows up as a modem Jul 30 01:09:32 ah Jul 30 01:09:58 takes in well-spesified AT commands etc Jul 30 01:09:58 so, the remaining items for gsmd just require knowledge of the protocol? Jul 30 01:10:09 yes Jul 30 01:10:23 BryceLeo: not yet, or are they just saying they will only have the board only sorted in October ? Jul 30 01:10:34 cool, maybe i'll hack on gsmd (or watch it being hacked on so i can learn more) Jul 30 01:11:01 linux_galore: they're pretty much saying no board only option because it won't be cost effective Jul 30 01:11:03 daMaestro: check out gsmd-devel mailing list Jul 30 01:11:20 yeah, once i have my device and have all the devel tools packaged for my distro, i'll get on the mailing lists Jul 30 01:11:27 but until then... Jul 30 01:11:35 hmh, my Neo is coming tomorrow and I managed to get excited about doing a special kind of usb live distro Jul 30 01:11:54 BryceLeo: makes sense, cheaper for me to buy a whole unit from Chine here than a board so it doesnt surprise me Jul 30 01:11:58 mjr, can the neo hardware boot from usb? Jul 30 01:12:02 mjr: as in booting from usb->neo, or booting x86 pc from neo? Jul 30 01:12:19 ...which is completely Neo-unrelated, which is pfft :] Jul 30 01:12:33 China* Jul 30 01:12:53 booting pc from the neo would be pretty sweet Jul 30 01:13:08 and i mean s/pretty/very/ Jul 30 01:13:14 'cause now I have all this non-Neo-related motivation even though I'm getting one :] Jul 30 01:13:23 daMaestro, that'll be easy Jul 30 01:13:52 but we need a powered usb hub yes? Jul 30 01:14:02 actually, if one can stick a 4 gig microsd into a neo, my idea could be peripherally Neo-relevant :] Jul 30 01:14:07 anyone worried about differentiating between gta01 and gta02 compat apps? Jul 30 01:14:15 i.e. which need the faster proc etc Jul 30 01:14:21 daMaestro, certainly not; only if you want to use the Neo as host Jul 30 01:14:24 mjr, mind a /msg? Jul 30 01:14:41 go ahead Jul 30 01:17:41 mjr: 4 gB micosd probably won't ever work in gta01 Jul 30 01:17:51 2gB probably the max Jul 30 01:21:04 it might not work, but i'm sure you'd be able to stick it in =) Jul 30 01:21:20 hehe Jul 30 01:21:37 Writchie|is_away, last I checked there was no sure word on whether it's a driver or hw issue Jul 30 01:21:54 I won't cry if they won't work, just saying my current non-Neo masterplan needs a bit of space on the flash... Jul 30 01:22:51 booting from the neo might be interesting in terms of full disc encryption. Jul 30 01:23:05 quinton, a very good point, actually Jul 30 01:23:22 mjr, what's your master plan? i love those things Jul 30 01:23:40 * daMaestro mubles ...totakeovertheworld... Jul 30 01:25:09 daMaestro, we all have that one =) Jul 30 01:25:18 a live usb desktop stick where the actual desktop runs in a (probably xen) (para-)vm, from whence it can be suspended on the very stick, taken to a computer (possibly with different hw, obviously), restore the desktop and continue work Jul 30 01:25:40 s/to a/to another/ Jul 30 01:25:42 mjr meant: a live usb desktop stick where the actual desktop runs in a (probably xen) (para-)vm, from whence it can be suspended on the very stick, taken to another computer (possibly with different hw, obviously), restore the desktop and continue work Jul 30 01:26:08 mjr, i have a very similar plan Jul 30 01:26:11 mjr, ;-) Jul 30 01:26:11 mjr, that's awesome Jul 30 01:26:17 daMaestro, you bastard Jul 30 01:26:35 mjr, though i'm fighting using para-virt Jul 30 01:27:00 I figured para is good in this case since it's linux on both sides anyway, maximizes efficiency Jul 30 01:27:04 mjr: wait... why do you need a neo for that? Jul 30 01:27:04 but it works on most commodity hardware, so having ring based guest support is a good idea Jul 30 01:27:11 oh wait, you said the neo isn't really part of th eplan Jul 30 01:27:18 ferric, yes I did :] Jul 30 01:27:47 daMaestro, have you managed to get anything done yet then? Me neither :) Jul 30 01:27:50 i like vmotion better, zap your VM across the network to a box billions of miles away Jul 30 01:27:53 :D Jul 30 01:28:10 mjr, i have Jul 30 01:28:24 mjr, i have a use based xen guest booting on a live dom0 Jul 30 01:28:30 s/use/usb/ Jul 30 01:28:30 daMaestro meant: mjr, i have a usb based xen guest booting on a live dom0 Jul 30 01:28:37 righto Jul 30 01:29:10 i've not tried moving between hypervisors or having the guest resume from some sort of suspend Jul 30 01:29:52 but one reason i'm looking away from hypervisors is because if you do full virt, you can count on a lot of the same exact hardware (emulated of course) Jul 30 01:30:11 Anyone figure out the 3g sim cards yet? Jul 30 01:30:13 and in a stateless env, you don't really need to bring the kernel up and down Jul 30 01:30:28 calamous1_, you're one of the att people right? Jul 30 01:30:39 Yes I am Jul 30 01:30:47 3g in the US? uh... where? Jul 30 01:30:49 I figured I'd use an ubuntu live image as a basis, compressed filesystem, same filesystem for dom0 and domU (read-only, after all), do some different setup based on the result, mount (overlay?) stuff on the dom0, handle display with a VNC viewer running on dom0 X server, a RANDR-patched Xvnc on domU, pulseaudio on dom0, domU-ALSA set up to use that, and perhaps after that, USB/IP Jul 30 01:31:05 daMaestro: any new on getting them working? Jul 30 01:31:07 calamous1_, you should try to find out for us what kinda of sim you have ... 3v 5v etc Jul 30 01:31:10 ferric: all over where I live :) Jul 30 01:31:17 rushforth: whoa - really? Jul 30 01:31:27 daMaestro: how can I determine that? Jul 30 01:31:32 daMaestro, yeah, you can see that I'm thinking working around most of the hardware thingies with network access ;) Jul 30 01:31:33 calamous1_, call them Jul 30 01:31:37 ferric: yup, cingular(att), sprint, and verizon (im in los angeles) Jul 30 01:31:44 mjr, yes.. interesting concept Jul 30 01:32:00 ack Jul 30 01:33:23 daMaestro: Alright, I'll call tomorrow. the number on my sim is 4021 and someone told me that its a simtronics (http://www.oberthurcs.com/getpage.aspx?id=65#application) Jul 30 01:33:34 simphonic* Jul 30 01:34:13 daMaestro, anyway, if I get anything done, I'll try to remember to sync with you for experiences Jul 30 01:34:21 daMaestro: that sim works in every other phone by the neo, which tells me that there isnt even a sim card inserted Jul 30 01:34:23 ok Jul 30 01:34:30 calamous1_, right Jul 30 01:34:40 I'm a bit fickle with motivation, so I'm not sure if this'll stick Jul 30 01:35:02 calamous1_, we really just need to track down if it is something that att can fix or not Jul 30 01:35:39 daMaestro: I know, but when the card works in all other devices it makes me think the neo is at fault. And the older sim cards the 2g ones work fine in the neo Jul 30 01:35:55 so I know my neo's card reader is working Jul 30 01:36:22 well, my point is "we need to find out if att is willing to fix the issue.. aka give us sim cards that work" Jul 30 01:36:38 you can buy an att compatible 2g sim on ebay Jul 30 01:36:38 if not, we really need to tell the consumer base that att wont work Jul 30 01:36:39 Or what otehr phones if any the SIM doesn't work in. Jul 30 01:36:41 if( sim.generation == 3 && phone.model == "neo") dontwork(); Jul 30 01:37:21 SpeedEvil: my att 3g sim cards works in lots of phones, including my dad's older 2g phone Jul 30 01:37:36 SpeedEvil: but not the neo Jul 30 01:37:49 did you have a choice? or did they just give you the sim? Jul 30 01:37:52 hm, my openmoko build is dying in openmoko-rssreader. Jul 30 01:38:06 error? Jul 30 01:38:12 daMaestro: all the newly sold att sims are 3g. no exceptions. (at least what i was told) Jul 30 01:38:16 calamous1_: perhaps because the neo is a _metric_ phone ;-) Jul 30 01:38:17 daMaestro: They just gave me the sim. Its the standard at&t sim Jul 30 01:38:22 | checking for WEBKITGTK... Package WebKitGdk was not found in the pkg-config search path. Jul 30 01:38:51 ls Jul 30 01:39:02 ok, so the more and more we work through this.. the more and more it sounds like att is not going to allow the neo? Jul 30 01:39:03 * sagacis had the focus on the wrong window just now Jul 30 01:39:03 daMaestro: As much as I dislike at&t, I don't feel they are at fault. They cards work in all other phones i've tried. Jul 30 01:39:03 wait. you have access to the code, there must be a way to find out how far it gets into recognizing the SIM... Jul 30 01:39:34 mellon: are you using mokomakefile? Jul 30 01:39:34 the farthest ive gotten is CME ERROR 13 (instead of CME ERROR 10), which means sim failure, (instead of sim not inserted) Jul 30 01:39:36 ferric: only if you have access to the gsm chip's code Jul 30 01:39:42 nope, building from scratch. Jul 30 01:39:45 daMaestro: Do you think at&t is trying to prevent neos on their network or the neo cant read 3g sim cards? Jul 30 01:39:58 cesarb: ah Jul 30 01:40:00 ferric: the GSM modules code is closed. Jul 30 01:40:03 ferric: which we don't (but FIC does) Jul 30 01:40:05 I would be *shocked* if AT&T is even aware of the openmoko on that level. Jul 30 01:40:08 its got to be the neo, or combination of hardware in the neo. Jul 30 01:40:12 rushforth: was your error 13 with an at&t "3g fireball" sim card Jul 30 01:40:13 I don't think FIC does. Jul 30 01:40:16 i thought the gsm module was open, as well, just the firmware was closed Jul 30 01:40:18 and if we are lucky, software. Jul 30 01:40:20 atleast that's what mjr just said... Jul 30 01:40:21 FIC - AIUI - get a binary image from TI. Jul 30 01:40:25 calamous1_: yup Jul 30 01:40:36 ferric: so I think FIC is going to get one of these problematic SIMs to test Jul 30 01:40:38 rushforth: did you do any initilization at cmds first? Jul 30 01:40:40 mellon: do you have webkitgdk? Jul 30 01:40:48 ferric, I don't know what you mean by "open but firmware closed" Jul 30 01:41:01 actually, neither do i Jul 30 01:41:03 does tmobile not have 3g sims? Jul 30 01:41:07 I would be more than happy to ship my SIM to TW for fic to see that their phone is not working with it Jul 30 01:41:08 calamous1_: ive only gotten CME ERROR 13 one time, it was after i had tried to register using the wiki instructions Jul 30 01:41:10 SpeedEvil: from what I read on one of the gsmd-devel emails and the wiki, they added extra commands to the gsm chip's firmware Jul 30 01:41:13 ferric: er, for which architecture? I would like to think bitbake would have built a cross library for the neo. Jul 30 01:41:15 it's pretty closed, even with datasheet being unavailable, but it does implement the usual AT standards Jul 30 01:41:21 ferric: the modem looks like an AT modem. It supports the open AT standard. The code to implement the modem on the modems CPU is closed. Jul 30 01:41:24 SpeedEvil: including the "poweroff" one Jul 30 01:41:27 lol tmobile _barely_ has SIMs which can make calls. Jul 30 01:41:32 SpeedEvil: so, they should have at least some of the code Jul 30 01:41:53 mjr: ah Jul 30 01:41:59 Since the TI Cylapso is not "open" FIC needs to solve this problem. Jul 30 01:42:11 * ferric nods Jul 30 01:42:46 so basically the degree of openness is that we know how to talk to it to make it do "usual GSM/GPRS stuff" Jul 30 01:42:47 cesarb: Perhaps - I'm unsure. I haven't been reading the gsmd list. Jul 30 01:43:09 mjr: but we can't figure out what error it's throwing on the 'no SIM card found!!! error P134121' Jul 30 01:43:21 nope Jul 30 01:43:51 mellon: you're right, bitbake should've got it for you Jul 30 01:43:54 cesarb: I got the impression that TI had to do the changes - hence the slowness of the sidetone fixes. Jul 30 01:44:06 I will laugh when fic markets the GTA02 and it dosent work with 3g sim cards. Jul 30 01:44:07 mellon: why not use mokomakefile? Jul 30 01:44:13 lol calamous1_ Jul 30 01:44:20 any of the guys who were interest in the crash course around? Jul 30 01:44:34 i doubt that'll happen. sooner or later one of the devs will figure out how to make it work. Jul 30 01:44:40 'the power of open source'. :P Jul 30 01:44:48 assuming the issue is software Jul 30 01:45:10 even if it isn't. someone will figure out a solution, maybe someone from TI will write a patch :/ Jul 30 01:45:23 daMaestro: exactly. Jul 30 01:45:25 patch == software Jul 30 01:45:33 patch to firmware, i meant Jul 30 01:45:42 if we really have a 3g hardware issue, that would suck Jul 30 01:45:54 i would personally go as far as saying show stopper Jul 30 01:46:09 but that is just my "opinion" ... so don't listen to me Jul 30 01:46:13 hardware doesn't work on 3G Jul 30 01:46:22 yeah, but 3g SIM cards Jul 30 01:46:22 * ferric doesn't listen to daMaestro anyway Jul 30 01:46:23 well, it could be that it's NOT the GSM module's fault... Jul 30 01:46:23 the contacts on the 3g sim are slightly different from the 2g sim.. this is what scares me. (i also know little about sim card construction) Jul 30 01:46:32 did someone figure out the power wiring of the neo? Jul 30 01:46:37 AIUK FIC now has the tools to make changes to the gsm stack Jul 30 01:46:37 hi ya'll - so I received my neo1973 a couple of days ago, and I have a question ;-). Since the stock kernel image was not bootable, I followed instructions on the getting started page and downloaded a prebuilt image as a starting point (my local build of a rootfs is coming down next). However, I now see that there is no agpsd or similar in the prebuilt images. By overwriting the borked kernel/rootfs that came on the phone did I los Jul 30 01:46:41 rushforth: how?! Jul 30 01:46:44 but this will not be open Jul 30 01:46:49 because I wouldn't be surprised if the SIM's power supply comes from the power management chip Jul 30 01:47:00 and it could be that that SIM has a different voltage from the rest Jul 30 01:47:06 ferric: how are the contacts different? Jul 30 01:47:08 (i.e. it's 1.8V and the rest is 3V or vice versa) Jul 30 01:47:34 khester: there's no rootfs on the shipped phones, see the SH1 page on the wiki Jul 30 01:47:43 rushforth: no... how do you know about sim card constrution :P Jul 30 01:47:49 oohh Jul 30 01:48:01 sorry, i also know "nothing" about sim card construction :) Jul 30 01:48:18 lol Jul 30 01:48:20 ok sgt schultz Jul 30 01:48:23 but visually, the pin-outs look different Jul 30 01:48:24 cesarb: I grok. That's why I put a rootfs on there per the sh1 page. So how do I get a copy of the proprietary agpsd which is apparently not kosher for online distribution Jul 30 01:48:31 (thanks for the help) Jul 30 01:48:36 http://www.oberthurcs.com/getpage.aspx?id=65#application "SIM Sentry" is scaring me Jul 30 01:49:29 rushforth: only the "pads" on the sides matter, whether or not they are connected in the middle do not matter Jul 30 01:50:09 khester: it was never there in the first place on your phone - the wiki page is wrong. it only ever went out to P0 developers Jul 30 01:50:15 cesarb: ah, very interesting. Jul 30 01:50:21 cesarb: bummer Jul 30 01:50:43 so P1 folks don't get the agpsd? Jul 30 01:51:02 which reminds me, when is Batch2 of P1 phones coming to the US? Jul 30 01:51:05 I agree with daMaestro *shudders* scary app Jul 30 01:51:06 has there been any announcment of how to get that piece of software. I'm a bit of a low level GPS geek and wanted to get a little app that I've been running under the emulator on the phone Jul 30 01:51:07 if you're not a P0 developer who got it on the phone, the only legal way to get it is to wait until OpenMoko has finalised the license with Global Locate so they can distribute it to you Jul 30 01:51:27 we could be running into something like "oh... to be able to use this sim you need to buy our sdk to learn how to init the sim before you use it" Jul 30 01:51:51 khester: I suggest you talk privately to some of the people on the sphyrna mailing list. Jul 30 01:51:54 ah - has there been any discussion on this license issue? i.e. is there a list I should be reading other than the open-moko-devel list Jul 30 01:51:56 rwhitby: or bribe a P0 dev? :D Jul 30 01:52:06 calypso chipset is used on many phones Jul 30 01:52:17 khester, there was a brief mention by Sean on -community today Jul 30 01:52:19 doubt this is an intrisic problem Jul 30 01:52:25 khester: sean mailed about it on one of the lists Jul 30 01:53:08 khester: define low-level Jul 30 01:53:18 ok - i'll check that out. i haven't been reading community, I guess I get on it. (if anyone wants to anonymously mail me some random exe - nudge nudge - I'm kevinh@geeksville.com) Jul 30 01:53:27 khester: psuedoranges, PRNs, and ionospheric delays? Jul 30 01:53:40 A customer proof platform: Jul 30 01:53:40 capitalizing on the strengths of SIMphonIC™ 2G, SIMphonIC 3G provides robustness, performance, security and flexible storage capacities for succeeding in 3G services roll out. ..... now that is even more scary Jul 30 01:54:09 maybe its the spy application in the USIM Jul 30 01:54:17 also called QoS Jul 30 01:54:22 SpeedEvil: not that low level ;-). I'm a kernel drivers type guy who has also written a few NMEA based GUIs on a contract dev job Jul 30 01:54:47 khester: Ah :) Jul 30 01:55:18 * SpeedEvil is working on that ATM. Jul 30 01:56:36 Writchie, i think the "Standardized remote applications management based on GlobalPlatform 2.1.1" is more the spy application Jul 30 01:57:11 i thought AT&T has always been customer proof Jul 30 01:57:25 and future proof Jul 30 01:57:47 here we go - smooth migration from 2G to 3G Jul 30 01:58:44 I just did a floating point benchmark on the neo1973 and was pleasantly surprised. It came out about 1/200 as fast as a 1.8 GHz Core duo (using only one processor). Not bad, for a machine with no floating point hardware. Jul 30 01:58:51 ok - just read sean's note on the GPS driver. I can wait a bit since it is supposedly _very soon_. Jul 30 01:59:27 therefore my first task will be what I had previously planned as my second task: add the code so the neo will connect to my bluetooth headset and keyboard Jul 30 01:59:42 my app will have to live in qemu a bit longer Jul 30 02:02:16 ferric: mokomakefile is bandaids on top of bandaids on top of bandaids. I really prefer to get as close to the source as possible. Jul 30 02:02:34 frankly, bitbake is a bit too far away for my taste. this is no way to do release engineering. Jul 30 02:03:41 ah, but for other devs, mokomakefile is a godsend Jul 30 02:03:59 mellon: what are you talking about? Jul 30 02:04:20 mellon: mokomakefile is a _very_ thin wrapper over bitbake proprer, so why not use it? Jul 30 02:04:20 mellon: how can you not do release engineering with bitbake? Jul 30 02:05:12 the right way to fix something is to fix it at the source, not to apply patches. Jul 30 02:05:30 If you automate the process of applying patches, the fix never makes it to the source. Jul 30 02:05:50 I recall some time ago I saw somewhere an image (probably a PDF) which showed the power subsystem of the neo (like, what was connected to which power bus)... does anyone know where it is? I am not finding it anymore Jul 30 02:05:58 mellon: OE patches don't apply to the source, they're stictly for our platform Jul 30 02:06:03 mellon: tell that to andrew morton Jul 30 02:06:41 e.g., there's a bug in the build right now because some of the patches that bitbake applies are obsolete, in the sense that they are no longer required because they *have* propogated back to the source. Jul 30 02:06:43 cesarb: the Neo1973 Power Managment page has the info. Jul 30 02:07:20 SpeedEvil: but not the image... Jul 30 02:07:30 mellon: and that's not the case with all the patches, i'm sure many patches that get submitted take time to get pulled upstream but we need them now Jul 30 02:08:02 Why are we arguing about this? Jul 30 02:08:10 mellon: automated applying of patches is great when you fix bugs and submit them upstream, since they are very separable Jul 30 02:08:12 mellon: no idea Jul 30 02:08:16 :') Jul 30 02:08:23 mellon: no idea either Jul 30 02:08:43 any guys good with bitbake in the house Jul 30 02:09:10 I think it's fine if you guys use mokomakefile, but for me it hides too much of the build process. Jul 30 02:10:38 mellon: have you gotten an app onto the emulator yet? Jul 30 02:10:43 mellon: not when you say "hey, this doesn't work" and the fix is already in mokomakefile's patches directory Jul 30 02:10:53 Is it? Jul 30 02:11:04 mellon: (i.e., ok you do not want to use mokomakefile, but at least take a look at it and the patches directory which comes with it) Jul 30 02:11:46 BryceLeo: nope. I got a built to go on feisty, but I've been traveling and my laptop is running Gutsy, so I'm having difficulties. Jul 30 02:12:15 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course this uses the mokomakefile but it should help you out Jul 30 02:12:31 Hm, okay, thanks. Jul 30 02:12:38 mellon: and the build dying on webkit, IIRC the fix is already on openmoko's svn (they changed the sane version of the rss reader to something older) Jul 30 02:12:44 i'm going to include instruction for by hand builders tomorrow Jul 30 02:12:59 mellon: (which means that not using mokomakefile makes no difference here) Jul 30 02:13:24 cesarb: interesting. I guess bitbake isn't actually grabbing the latest stuff, though. Jul 30 02:13:45 cesarb: IIRC it's changed a bit since P0 which may have been when the image was. Jul 30 02:14:21 mellon bb isnt very good at tracking deps. Jul 30 02:14:41 mellon do a bitbake -cclean openmoko-rssreader and update sdn Jul 30 02:14:47 mellon: bitbake wouldn't grab it, you have to svn update the openmoko directory Jul 30 02:14:49 s/sdn/svn to pull the fix Jul 30 02:15:05 mellon: because it's not in the recipe, but in one of the .inc things in conf/ Jul 30 02:15:05 mellon: MokoMakefile supports running bitbake by hand. Think of it as an environment setup and maintenance tool, and a build tool for those who just want the image. If you're actually developing, then use bitbake directly after using mokomakefile to set things up the same as everyone else (and to make sure you've got the latest of everything) Jul 30 02:15:09 roh:cool, thanks. Jul 30 02:16:09 rwhitby: that makes sense. :') Jul 30 02:16:26 thanks everyone! Jul 30 02:18:03 MokoMakefile hides the detail from those who wouldn't look at it anyway, and puts the detail in a standard place for those who do want to look at and use it. Jul 30 02:18:48 yes, so don't go around calling someone's baby blind if you haven't tried playing with it Jul 30 02:20:13 Er, somebody asked why I wasn't using mokomakefile. I said why. No need to get huffy! Jul 30 02:20:22 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Carriers/TMobile]] [[Carriers/ATT]] [[Carriers]] Jul 30 02:20:38 (Unless you like kids' bikes) Jul 30 02:22:28 mellon: be glad nobody asked which text editor you use ;-) Jul 30 02:22:39 btw, rwhitby, your MokoMakefile is awesome :D Jul 30 02:22:43 I use Microsoft Word, like any sensible person! ;') Jul 30 02:23:09 rwhitby: ditto Jul 30 02:23:31 rwhitby: oh, btw, when I made that patch which changed the ; to && on mokomakefile, I missed one on push-openembedded Jul 30 02:23:46 Even though I don't use it myself, I have in fact been using the documentation for it in the Wiki and the patches that it dowloads; it is much appreciated! Jul 30 02:24:07 mellon: I took no offense at all at your remarks, so ferric's statement was not at all what I was thinking. Jul 30 02:24:57 I appreciate your forbearance. :') Jul 30 02:25:55 rwhitby: do you want a patch for that two-character change or is it not needed? (btw, does anyone actually use that target at all?) Jul 30 02:25:58 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r105 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: One more robustness fix ( ; -> && ) from cesarb Jul 30 02:26:58 mellon: in my mind, whether people use MokoMakefile or not is their personal choice. I do like to hear why people decide not to use it, so I can make it better enough that they will (on their own decision) choose to use it. Jul 30 02:27:22 I like your rationale for starting with it - if I'd heard that at the beginning I probably would have done. Jul 30 02:27:39 Indeed, if I can't get the build going I may start over that way. Jul 30 02:27:41 Open source is about making stuf which is so good that people choose to use it, not forcing stuff down people's throats like a zealot :-) Jul 30 02:28:03 Of course, you must use the One True Editor. But otherwise I agree. Jul 30 02:28:24 mellon: and I do use the One True Editor, so we'll get along just fine ;-) Jul 30 02:28:25 rwhitby: can you put the download counter link on the wiki somewhere if its' there? Jul 30 02:28:28 rwhitby: yeah, the second way's called Free Software instead. :) Jul 30 02:28:39 cjb: amen brother Jul 30 02:29:00 (I'm actually on the Free Software side, just being ironical.) Jul 30 02:29:19 SpeedEvil: there is no download counter link. It's a set of awk commands that I run on the server periodically. Jul 30 02:29:22 * cjb grows zealotous in his old age. Jul 30 02:29:24 rwhitby: you use ITS TECO? Wow! Jul 30 02:29:26 ah Jul 30 02:29:37 * SpeedEvil contemplates OpenMoko on iPhone. Jul 30 02:29:39 cjb: I travel in both camps depending on the application and the situation. Jul 30 02:30:05 * mwester contemplates the One True Editor on the Neo... Jul 30 02:30:30 * mjr contemplates the lack of Esc Meta Alt Control Shift on the Neo Jul 30 02:30:57 mellon: no, but I was using Emacs back in 1989 Jul 30 02:31:13 isn't one true editor already on neo? Jul 30 02:31:17 I was using Emacs in 1983! :') Jul 30 02:31:21 mjr: so _that's_ why we need multitouch. Jul 30 02:31:25 just put pico on there Jul 30 02:31:26 But I'm actually amvidextrous. Jul 30 02:31:29 * mwester contemplates electrical tape, multiple fingers, and multiple stylii, for Esc Meta Alt Control Shift on the Neo... Jul 30 02:31:42 its small, simple, doesn't need many special characters Jul 30 02:32:02 * rwhitby just waits for an openmoko device with a real keyboard to replace the Treo650 (which runs emacs nicely through a ssh connection) Jul 30 02:32:03 Heavens, just get an external keyboard. Jul 30 02:32:09 You can have all the bucky bits you need. Jul 30 02:32:20 alrighty guys the crash course is up with a basic CLI Hello world app, so check it out http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course if you have any questions comments or critique, feel free to email me at bryce.leo at your favourite gmail.com Jul 30 02:32:30 Drill a hole on either edge, put in a shoulder strap, and carry it with you. Jul 30 02:32:48 i'll hopefully have a gdk hello world app included that will have a bit about versioning with bitbake tomorrow Jul 30 02:33:00 and other than that, keep safe and happy coding! Jul 30 02:33:02 * mwester has a very nice collapsible keyboard for his Treo, and hopes to get one for his Neo (if it ever ships, that is). Jul 30 02:33:07 BryceLeo, thanks; was a good quick read, anyways, though too tired to try anything now Jul 30 02:33:24 * cesarb imagines someone on the street, with a computer keyboard strapped over his shoulders as if it was a guitar, typing madly Jul 30 02:33:28 BryceLeo: I read it - excellent stuff, that's what I'll use when my phone gets here Jul 30 02:33:30 lmao Jul 30 02:33:38 awesome good to hear guys Jul 30 02:33:55 Umm, question: anyone have any idea how to get a python file(s) included as a package into the image? Jul 30 02:33:55 it'll get better as the days go on, i hope to have it in a form that I consider finished by the end of the week Jul 30 02:33:58 c ya all Jul 30 02:34:07 cesarb:hm, for that you probably want to strap it so that it hangs at belt level. I was thinking you'd unsling it, sit down somewhere, and start typing, not that you'd type and walk at the same time... :') Jul 30 02:34:10 lol ZerothCloned you're so impatient, but i'll get to that too Jul 30 02:34:24 lol Jul 30 02:34:25 night all Jul 30 02:34:31 'night Bryce! Jul 30 02:34:37 'nite Jul 30 02:36:25 Hm, okay, I'm starting to like this guitar idea - you could set it up with a split inverted keyboard, so that one hand is typing from one side, and one from the other. Jul 30 02:36:50 mellon: I got that mental image from some cyberpunk novel, just FYI Jul 30 02:36:58 I think it was Neuromancer Jul 30 02:36:59 why not a guitar? Then we can at least look somewhat cool. Jul 30 02:37:06 BTW, the best way to get a random file included in the image is to build it, then scp the .ipkg file over, then ipkg install it locally. Jul 30 02:37:17 cesarb:The great tragedy of Neuromancer was that when he wrote it, William Gibson had never heard of a "head crash." Jul 30 02:37:31 I don't have a phone to actually scp it over Jul 30 02:37:34 rwhitby: can you explain in less than ten IRC lines how to scp a random file to the qemu-emulated neo? Jul 30 02:37:54 and the building part doesn't work for a python file for some reason. Jul 30 02:37:54 rwhitby: a lot of people have problems with the usb gadget qemu thingy Jul 30 02:38:44 cesarb: no idea - I was talking from a theoretical viewpoint ;-) Jul 30 02:39:01 i've not tried to get qemu based networking going Jul 30 02:39:08 someone should try slirp Jul 30 02:39:10 * cesarb has an interesting idea Jul 30 02:39:16 though, inbound with slirp is nasty Jul 30 02:39:30 How about a vfat image, being opened from with qemu as a SD card? Jul 30 02:39:54 With the use of mtools and a few extra targets on the makefile, you could make it real easy to copy files from/to it Jul 30 02:40:36 s/with qemu/within qemu/ Jul 30 02:42:34 anyway, talk to y'all later Jul 30 02:45:52 BryceLeo|Asleep: /home/moko is just an example path for the documentation - you can put it anywhere. Jul 30 02:46:23 cesarb: or sshfs to your build dir directly from the phone Jul 30 02:46:51 rwhitby: wouldn't that need networking first? Jul 30 02:47:46 rwhitby: btw, /home/moko is a bad path, it has confunded at least two people on this IRC channel already that I can remember Jul 30 02:47:55 rwhitby: because it needs root to be created Jul 30 02:48:12 cesarb its not worse than any path. its a example. Jul 30 02:48:29 roh: it's worse than all paths under the user's own home Jul 30 02:48:43 roh: it's not worse than any paths writeable only by root Jul 30 02:48:49 cesarb people need to start reading the docs first Jul 30 02:49:02 * cesarb has changed the wiki already so as to avoid the confusion Jul 30 02:49:46 * rwhitby is ambivalent about the path, and let's the community decide :-) Jul 30 02:56:14 i just used /moko myself :P Jul 30 02:56:23 /opt/moko makes sense though Jul 30 02:56:30 it dosen't really matter ;) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jul 30 02:59:57 2007