**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Aug 05 02:59:56 2007 Aug 05 03:06:20 Heyas, leppoc Aug 05 03:07:01 someone can tell me if when it is compiling libsdl-x11, am I far away from the end of make openmoko-devel-image ? Aug 05 03:07:07 hi abraxa_ :) Aug 05 03:08:10 (a kind of statement "Compiling component X/Y" before each step would be nice :) ) Aug 05 03:08:45 No idea, sorry Aug 05 03:09:15 hehe, not really important, I am just too impatient ;) Aug 05 03:11:43 LaF0rge: ping Aug 05 03:38:28 man there's a whole ton in oe that doesn't build, I must be doing something wrong Aug 05 03:38:32 anybody having trouble reaching buildhost? is it off the air Aug 05 03:39:03 Writchie: are you building old or 2007.2? Aug 05 03:39:44 no - I'm having trouble accessing buildhost at all. Aug 05 03:40:18 Writchie: then it's probably down because of the upcoming switch to 2007.2... it's just a guess but that's my bet Aug 05 03:40:38 is there an image yet of any 2007.2 build? Aug 05 03:41:06 alphaone has some rough builds up, there's a wiki article on building it Aug 05 03:41:31 it's all in OE but anyone using mokomakefile and the old system won't be able to get to it because of they're overlay Aug 05 03:41:43 best bet is to knock out what you've got and start again Aug 05 03:42:06 when it gets officially released they'll have details and bulid instrucitons up Aug 05 03:42:52 Writchie: however if you're looking for mrxvt packages or lua5 they're up at pics.and-a-half.com/ipk/ Aug 05 03:42:56 I'll probably just wait until release. I'm working on low level stuff that doesn't need the ui Aug 05 03:43:11 Writchie: are you one of those crazy hardware radio guys? Aug 05 03:43:20 certifable Aug 05 03:43:30 s/certifable/certifiable Aug 05 03:43:49 Writchie: hahaha i get so lost in the confusing words and googling them that i never look at the names Aug 05 03:43:54 the only one i really remember is speed evil Aug 05 03:46:37 you mean that I have been building a soon-to-be-deprecating version for more than 7 hours ? Aug 05 03:46:40 :D Aug 05 03:47:05 s/deprecating/deprecated/ Aug 05 03:50:05 leppoc: yes... yes that's right Aug 05 03:50:34 leppoc: but think of how much you're learning! Aug 05 03:50:48 while you're at it http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course Aug 05 03:50:54 build your first app for the phone! Aug 05 03:51:01 practice makes perfect :-D Aug 05 03:55:11 lol Aug 05 03:55:40 yes, but I must finish the build before :D Aug 05 03:55:56 I haven't learned so much untill now :D Aug 05 03:56:38 Is there like a "TODO list" of apps/libs/other stuff that you (openmoko) really want on the phone ? Aug 05 03:57:05 (nothing low level... I don't have the phone (yet) ) Aug 05 03:57:08 leppoc: it's pretty much an open forum for whereever you mind takes you Aug 05 03:57:47 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freshman_todo Aug 05 03:58:16 leppoc: there's the freshmen todo that's a little stale but follow that right ot the todo category and it gives you a good bit of things to work on Aug 05 03:58:19 I know. but lets say that for a cellphone, there are things that must not be mussing. I mean, nobody wants to buy a phone like that if there are no good calendar app (just an example) Aug 05 03:58:33 ok :) cool Aug 05 03:59:08 leppoc: applications like that are usually done by the core team, you're more than welcome to submit patches to them and heck you might even get a job! Aug 05 03:59:47 ok. (but I am fine at google for now ;) ) Aug 05 04:00:01 i've put my self into the role of setting up docs to get new guys started, however with the advent of 2007.2 there's gonna be tons of work to do porting docs and making them right again Aug 05 04:00:26 leppoc: if you want a good start http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/ Aug 05 04:00:27 well, I could help you, since I will get started soon :) Aug 05 04:00:37 the angstrom distro is what OM 2007.2 is based off of Aug 05 04:00:47 ok Aug 05 04:00:53 on their main page they have a link to a OpenEmbedded userguide pdf so that's a great resource as well Aug 05 04:01:35 leppoc: haha trust me, i'll be needing the help of new guys like you, so we'll be in touch Aug 05 04:01:47 :) Aug 05 04:02:06 i'm currently spending alot of time building OE ipk's so that we can have a distro repo relatively soon Aug 05 04:03:11 cool. As a app developper, could I use only binaries and header files for example, without having to compile everything ? Aug 05 04:05:55 leppoc: well, you're probably going to want to compile everything to get a feel for how the build system works, it's a little wonky, but it really depends on the langs you want to develop it Aug 05 04:05:59 what langauges do you do? Aug 05 04:06:42 I usually use (in order of personal preference) java, python, C++ and C Aug 05 04:07:23 but I am guessing that C and C++ are more appropriated for openmoko... (GTK...) Aug 05 04:08:22 oh nice, the Wish List :) Aug 05 04:10:51 leppoc: Aug 05 04:10:54 whoops Aug 05 04:11:09 leppoc: i've heard that python runs fairly well on the device Aug 05 04:11:49 i'd still suggest C or C++ because it's an embeded device and the less resources you need the less power you need the longer batterylife you get Aug 05 04:12:17 yes, I think that for some tools, it might be ok (like small scripts), bui UI stuff should run in C/C++ Aug 05 04:12:21 exactly :) Aug 05 04:13:46 leppoc: how familiar are you with autotools? Aug 05 04:14:35 leppoc: or shall i ask what build system do you usually use? Aug 05 04:15:46 I could not be less familiar.... :-S I use them as a "user", but as a developper, I have always been writing my own makefiles, since I have never be really concerned by the portability of my projects. Aug 05 04:15:57 (and at Google, we use our own build tools...) Aug 05 04:16:19 http://www.shlomifish.org/lecture/Autotools/ Aug 05 04:16:35 go through "The Autbook" Aug 05 04:16:43 that's a pretty good place to lear Aug 05 04:16:45 n Aug 05 04:16:54 ok :) thanks Aug 05 04:16:58 no problem Aug 05 04:17:05 and don't feel like you have to do this all tonight! Aug 05 04:17:09 I have always found autotools way too complicated.... Aug 05 04:17:15 ;) Aug 05 04:17:16 make some bookmarks and go through it slowly Aug 05 04:17:21 sure Aug 05 04:17:30 lol leppoc i build these fantastically complicated script files Aug 05 04:17:38 and some by hand make files Aug 05 04:17:49 i'm still getting up with this autotools voodoo Aug 05 04:18:13 hehe :) voodoo is actually the perfect word for this situation :D Aug 05 04:19:23 leppoc: lol wait till you figure out bitbake that's crazy Aug 05 04:20:36 I am sure it is :) I don't think that the open source community is using really "stupid" things. Otherwise there would be tons of forks of it, and autotools would be dead :D Aug 05 04:21:39 lol there's always people who like their own tools. The only competitor that really comes to mind for autotools is qmake Aug 05 04:21:44 though there are more for sure Aug 05 04:23:19 and bitbake is arguably bad as it just simplifies applying patches that in some cases need to go up-stream... however, since these patches are just because they're gonna be running on an embedded system they don't ever go up stream Aug 05 04:23:48 i'm personally a bitbake fan and think that it's a great solution, but i'm really just a happy kinda guy who likes anything useful Aug 05 04:24:52 I have been using scons as a make replacement. it's really nice :) Aug 05 04:24:55 hehe :) Aug 05 04:26:09 scons is pretty sweet, that's what linuxdcpp uses Aug 05 04:26:19 yep Aug 05 04:27:25 leppoc: well now ya get something new to learn! how exciting eh? :D Aug 05 04:27:40 sure it is ! Aug 05 04:27:55 MokoMakefile seems to be really sweet too Aug 05 04:28:15 leppoc: yeah it is rwhitby did a great job with it Aug 05 04:34:20 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Carriers/ATT]] Aug 05 04:36:45 BryceLeo: patches done WELL should be able to be accepted upstream Aug 05 04:37:03 (as long as your upstream are decent) Aug 05 04:37:19 ie make embedded options #ifdefed and --enabled via configure Aug 05 04:37:24 or even able to be configured runtime Aug 05 04:37:31 or plugged in and out runtime Aug 05 04:37:34 very true raster Aug 05 04:38:37 personally i think all thngs for embedded systems should not have patches Aug 05 04:38:43 it should only be a matter of config Aug 05 04:38:49 preferably 100% runtime config Aug 05 04:39:02 so its actualyl the exact same upstream "desktop" program Aug 05 04:39:02 raster: yes but many of these apps aren't designed or were even thought about for embedded use Aug 05 04:39:04 compield for arm Aug 05 04:39:15 with different config files and maybe different modules Aug 05 04:39:16 raster: i agree with you, that would be ideal Aug 05 04:39:33 thats where either your upsteram is embedded friendly Aug 05 04:39:33 ie Aug 05 04:39:37 they are hapy to help Aug 05 04:39:59 or you go to the effort of making a patch that makes it possible to, in future, make these changes, without having to send patches upstream Aug 05 04:40:24 raster: alot of the apps have been very good about that Aug 05 04:40:36 of course doing that is a lot more work - in the short term Aug 05 04:40:53 but when you're working with volunteers you take what you can get Aug 05 04:40:57 surew Aug 05 04:41:43 raster: you don't happen to be the guy who's the big cheese with Enlightenment? Aug 05 04:42:15 i'm the big gouda i guess Aug 05 04:42:25 all smelly and stuff Aug 05 04:43:01 raster: hahaha, well it's a pleasure to meet you, and I love your work Aug 05 04:43:22 thanks - but it's a bit slow these days Aug 05 04:43:25 way too much to do Aug 05 04:43:27 and too little time Aug 05 04:43:54 though i am makign e17 embedded-friendly Aug 05 04:44:01 i've always liked your choice of using pawn for embryo Aug 05 04:44:02 a lot of the core features are (now) modules Aug 05 04:44:28 it was a tossup between lua and pawn (was small at the time) Aug 05 04:44:29 wow, heh, a whole lot of work that most people will never notice Aug 05 04:44:41 the runtime for embry is a LOT smaller than lua tho Aug 05 04:44:45 and a lot faster Aug 05 04:44:51 heh yeah, i used to use small to write simple automation programs on my home router Aug 05 04:45:06 actually last i checked it beats the jvm's runtime bytecode engine by 2.5 to 1 Aug 05 04:45:12 beats perl by 20:1 Aug 05 04:45:12 haha yeah i actually started getting into lua once i got my treo and got plua for it Aug 05 04:45:20 and python 40:1 Aug 05 04:45:30 wow, that's quick Aug 05 04:45:30 in terms of speed of command execution Aug 05 04:45:38 its about 1/7th the speed of compiled C Aug 05 04:45:59 which isn't too bad Aug 05 04:46:02 which is damn good, for desktops that's close enough to native, hell, look at how quick pythons' gotten Aug 05 04:46:06 for a non-jit vm engine Aug 05 04:46:11 and at 2000 lines of co code Aug 05 04:46:17 it probably one of the smallest vm's around Aug 05 04:46:32 and one of the most stable, and memory efficent to boot Aug 05 04:46:39 but something like python or perl etc. woudl have been a wrong chocie for me Aug 05 04:46:50 embryo is simply a logic clue and description lang Aug 05 04:46:53 intended for things like Aug 05 04:47:04 "if (this state) then (do this) else (this" Aug 05 04:47:05 kind of stuff Aug 05 04:47:10 set/get states Aug 05 04:47:12 store Aug 05 04:47:19 for each of these tiems do this Aug 05 04:47:20 etc. Aug 05 04:47:23 it beats writing your own that's for sure Aug 05 04:47:27 yeah Aug 05 04:47:37 though i had to majorly rework small's code Aug 05 04:47:42 i pretty much rewrote the runtime vm Aug 05 04:47:48 yowch Aug 05 04:47:52 fixed up all the big vs litle endian bugs Aug 05 04:47:58 fixed 32 vs 64bit issues Aug 05 04:47:59 that musta taken a while Aug 05 04:48:06 raster = rasterman ? the real one ? wow :) Aug 05 04:48:07 the compiler is still almost verbatim Aug 05 04:48:16 but the runtime is almsot entirely new Aug 05 04:48:21 anyway Aug 05 04:48:23 (sory for interrupting this discussion ;)) Aug 05 04:48:30 it's proven nice for its intende use - edje Aug 05 04:48:32 intended Aug 05 04:48:44 leppoc: actually i'm a wee little leprechaun :) Aug 05 04:49:23 :D Aug 05 04:49:32 well i should figure you wouldn't need to modify the compiler Aug 05 04:49:47 BryceLeo: i did - it wasnt big and little endian safe Aug 05 04:49:49 nor 64bit safe Aug 05 04:50:11 it is now Aug 05 04:50:12 raster: heh, yeah i knew about the endian problem but i didn't know about the 64bit Aug 05 04:50:12 :) Aug 05 04:50:19 raster: that's awesome Aug 05 04:50:21 well embryo_cc is Aug 05 04:50:33 so i have a guaranteed known compiler and version Aug 05 04:50:52 i like splitting out the parser into compile-time things like the compiler Aug 05 04:51:06 instead of loading pawn src - compiling in-memory to bytecode then running it Aug 05 04:51:15 that makes sense Aug 05 04:51:18 thats why lua is so much fatter runtime Aug 05 04:51:22 it needs to parse runtime Aug 05 04:51:24 modular is way easier to debug Aug 05 04:51:49 but still comparatively though lua isn't terribly large Aug 05 04:51:55 oh no Aug 05 04:51:59 thats why it was a close contender Aug 05 04:52:05 other than writign my own from scratch Aug 05 04:52:12 i was toying with the idea of that Aug 05 04:52:16 but decided not to Aug 05 04:52:16 :) Aug 05 04:52:25 i've got enough to do Aug 05 04:52:29 which makes sense, why use the effort on that, someone already did a bunch of the work! Aug 05 04:52:44 adding a whole language compiler/vm/engine/whatever to it wasn't too desireable Aug 05 04:52:50 i'm also a graphcis nerd Aug 05 04:52:58 not a compiler/parsing/vm nerd :) Aug 05 04:53:06 indeed Aug 05 04:53:18 thank god small/pawn existed Aug 05 04:53:18 :) Aug 05 04:53:26 hahaha that's for sure! Aug 05 04:53:34 it just needed some beating into shape Aug 05 04:54:06 heh, and as long as you don't have to mess with the compiler that keeps it nice, because pawn is ll1 iirc Aug 05 04:54:25 ll1? Aug 05 04:54:40 means that there's no ambiguity pretty much Aug 05 04:54:56 there shouldnt be in a language Aug 05 04:54:57 imho Aug 05 04:55:01 i learned it in my compilers course, i got to implement all sorts of things and make sure that all was still ll1 Aug 05 04:55:11 haha you'd like everything separated out into modules? Aug 05 04:55:20 and libraries Aug 05 04:55:32 all languages should be explicit and unambiguous Aug 05 04:55:42 yes Aug 05 04:55:55 right now e17 has every main config dialog as a module Aug 05 04:56:05 * BryceLeo whistles Aug 05 04:56:07 wow.... Aug 05 04:56:24 actually comes with about 47 modules Aug 05 04:56:27 by default Aug 05 04:56:37 the idea is that if you dont like it Aug 05 04:56:41 u can remove the module entirely Aug 05 04:56:48 that's fantastic Aug 05 04:56:50 no code needs to exist in memory mappings Aug 05 04:56:56 exactly Aug 05 04:56:57 u can remove from disk if space is tight Aug 05 04:57:01 but even more importantly Aug 05 04:57:07 you can REPLACe the moduel with a different one Aug 05 04:57:13 providing the same basic features Aug 05 04:57:18 BUT implementing them differently Aug 05 04:57:19 eg Aug 05 04:57:21 for smaller screens Aug 05 04:57:28 or more limtied input devices Aug 05 04:57:32 :) Aug 05 04:57:37 or more complex Aug 05 04:57:41 sure Aug 05 04:58:09 lol imagine if projects like gnome or java were done like this Aug 05 04:58:14 i need to start having canonical module provides Aug 05 04:58:16 enlightenment is definitely great Aug 05 04:58:22 so another module can say it provides feature X Aug 05 04:58:37 that'd be a really sweet feature Aug 05 04:58:38 and thus e can smartly go "i have 3 moduels that provide "exebuf" - which do u want?" Aug 05 04:59:12 that would make multi lang easier, have a screen optomized for kanji or symbols and one for characters Aug 05 05:00:04 haha yes but you better hide that from new users or they'll be so confused Aug 05 05:00:26 I already chose enlightenment now you mean i get another choice??? Aug 05 05:00:42 hahahaha Aug 05 05:00:46 yes Aug 05 05:00:49 i'm all for choice Aug 05 05:00:52 i love features Aug 05 05:00:54 lol yeah, i'm totally with you on that Aug 05 05:00:56 the more - the merrier Aug 05 05:01:00 BUT Aug 05 05:01:05 implement them in a way that means u dont bloat Aug 05 05:01:07 they have to be well done and useful Aug 05 05:01:23 exactly Aug 05 05:01:32 if i include evas's emodules Aug 05 05:01:45 e17 loads about 51 module .so's for me Aug 05 05:01:49 i have disabled 1 or 2 Aug 05 05:01:57 but the main aim is that i have a lot of choice Aug 05 05:02:08 i agree with gnome's idea of "just make it work" Aug 05 05:02:11 but u need to do both Aug 05 05:02:20 have it as close to "it just works" as you can - out of the box Aug 05 05:02:21 make it smart Aug 05 05:02:25 wow, yeah but just being able to really strip down and genuinely strip down not just turn off is exactly how computing should be Aug 05 05:02:28 but also provide the little twiddle buttons Aug 05 05:02:31 under the bonnet Aug 05 05:02:43 so the power user can go "ummm - no - i DONT wantthat - i want THIS" Aug 05 05:02:57 hahaha exactly that's how it fricken should be Aug 05 05:03:21 yup Aug 05 05:03:38 * hhf423 yawns Aug 05 05:03:45 other than E and e related what other projects are you working on? Aug 05 05:04:00 well - depends what you mean by "work" Aug 05 05:04:03 i "work" for a bank Aug 05 05:04:11 i dont do any open soruce or e stuff for work Aug 05 05:04:32 so e stuff i do in my spare time (evenings, weekends - when i get time) Aug 05 05:04:34 so really Aug 05 05:04:38 i dont have time other than for e Aug 05 05:04:50 would you work on e for work if you could? Aug 05 05:04:50 haha well that makes sense Aug 05 05:04:52 e + libs in cvs is something not shy of a million lines of c code Aug 05 05:05:03 holy poo.... Aug 05 05:05:24 so last i checked - linux kernel was 6 or so million lines of c code Aug 05 05:05:36 damn Aug 05 05:05:41 just the core libs needed for e17 itself + e Aug 05 05:06:40 is Aug 05 05:06:42 um... Aug 05 05:07:23 alot ;) Aug 05 05:07:28 :D Aug 05 05:07:28 373731 total Aug 05 05:07:39 so about 1/3rd of cvs is just e17 core Aug 05 05:07:40 wow, that's actually reasonable Aug 05 05:07:52 lots of other stuff there too Aug 05 05:07:55 anyway Aug 05 05:07:58 keeps me busy Aug 05 05:07:58 heh that's awesome Aug 05 05:08:20 what sort of bank work do you do? like do you work tech for them or do you do bank type work Aug 05 05:08:48 ljp: ooh - and yes - if the offer was right- i would do e fulltime Aug 05 05:08:55 :) Aug 05 05:09:02 BryceLeo: morgan stanley Aug 05 05:09:10 i'm in IT Aug 05 05:09:14 pays the bills Aug 05 05:09:26 * hhf423 notes that Harald did just post to planet openmoko Aug 05 05:09:42 * ljp gets paid for doing what he would do in his spare time otherwise Aug 05 05:09:50 no shame in that, i work and go to school at The College of New Jersey and i shoot weddings as an associate or second for Laura Eaton photography and book some of my own clients when i have the time Aug 05 05:10:30 * BryceLeo thanks hhf423 for the note but that was sooo yesterdays news :-P Aug 05 05:10:47 lol hhf423 then again i check that daily so.... Aug 05 05:10:49 BryceLeo: :-) not my yesterday :-) Aug 05 05:11:03 lol btw raster my brother idolizes you Aug 05 05:11:09 BryceLeo: that'll keep you busy Aug 05 05:11:10 hhf423: touche! Aug 05 05:11:30 BryceLeo: eek Aug 05 05:11:36 raster: haha yeah it does, that's why i stick with writing docs and getting other people started developing Aug 05 05:11:52 raster: the only project i have planned if it doesn't get fixed is this keyboard debacle Aug 05 05:12:20 raster: lol no no he's harmless, just over zealous Aug 05 05:13:09 man, building every package in OE takes some time Aug 05 05:13:10 that's for sure Aug 05 05:13:17 i never really go with the thing of having heros and idols and stuff Aug 05 05:13:17 shit... i forgot to upade before i started this Aug 05 05:13:24 ouch Aug 05 05:13:31 i always look at objective goals and work at them Aug 05 05:13:47 * pjz got a new toy yesterday, has been playing with: Roku Soundbridge Aug 05 05:13:53 raster: i'm in your boat, there are people who you gotta respect for there work, but don't have heores or idolize people use them as a reason to kick your own ass into gear Aug 05 05:13:59 indeed Aug 05 05:14:01 he's 23 and still lives at home because he can't get out Aug 05 05:14:04 respect - absolutely Aug 05 05:14:21 theres are a tonne of very gifted, hard working, smart people who have written tonnes of software Aug 05 05:14:24 that is not easy to do Aug 05 05:14:36 and they have every ounce of respect from me Aug 05 05:14:40 they deserve it Aug 05 05:15:12 exactly, he's an english major and tends toromantazice things Aug 05 05:15:28 aaah that might explain it Aug 05 05:15:40 i think i lost that romantic gene somewhere along the way Aug 05 05:15:40 :) Aug 05 05:15:50 i'm probably overly anylitical Aug 05 05:16:22 lol nothing wrong with that Aug 05 05:17:08 gets the job done quicker and more correctly mostof the time Aug 05 05:18:30 yeah Aug 05 05:18:35 but it sucks sometimes Aug 05 05:18:47 as u sit and anylise to death Aug 05 05:18:55 true bu that's how it is with all things Aug 05 05:18:57 i need to trust my instincts more often and skip the analysis Aug 05 05:19:11 i've found my insticts seem to be spot on most of the time Aug 05 05:19:15 i just hate not knowing WHY Aug 05 05:19:29 for me that's always one of the most important questions Aug 05 05:19:53 instinct that's that right isn't really instinct, it's high order pattern recognition Aug 05 05:20:26 * hhf423 agrees with pjz Aug 05 05:20:47 "this thing I'm looking at reminds me most of this past experience which means that the analagous place to look for the problem is ..." Aug 05 05:20:53 but still, if you don't contious know why something is, thats difficult Aug 05 05:21:00 pjz: i know Aug 05 05:21:27 pjz: thats why i should try avoid the continual "i must find out why" Aug 05 05:21:31 and save myself time Aug 05 05:21:33 the other thing that works for me is having lots of different mental 'tools' Aug 05 05:21:35 but instinct is so much quicker to say and gets the point accross Aug 05 05:21:35 i need to prioritise better Aug 05 05:21:41 analyize something from several points of view Aug 05 05:21:46 as i will sink lots of time into finding the why's of trivial simple things Aug 05 05:21:52 that i should ignore Aug 05 05:21:56 raster: task freak is a pretty sweet app Aug 05 05:22:05 the problem is Aug 05 05:22:11 someone wants to do X Aug 05 05:22:17 raster, I think I disagree, you need to get to know why something is every now and then to refine your unconcious pattern matcher Aug 05 05:22:21 my instircts go "ewwww - yuk yuk.. no no!" Aug 05 05:22:29 and i tel them "don't do that!" Aug 05 05:22:30 works for me for balancing work and foss stuff Aug 05 05:22:36 raster: well, that can be good or bad. good b/c you end up knowing a whole lot more about how tings work; bad because it does tend to be a bit time consuming and no immediate payoff Aug 05 05:22:46 but then they require me to formulate a damn document on detailign why they shouldnt Aug 05 05:22:49 raster: consider like 'pure research' Aug 05 05:22:56 see? :-) Aug 05 05:22:59 so i go sink a tonne of time into dissecting my instincts Aug 05 05:23:00 raster: not immediately useful, but someday Aug 05 05:23:21 hhf423: yes- every now and again - but most of the time? no. Aug 05 05:23:53 pjz: i know :) the problem now is the time sink Aug 05 05:24:01 i've spent most of my life figuring out the whys Aug 05 05:24:06 i suspect i've done enough Aug 05 05:24:08 raster: no, not most of the time. For me, I think whats work is "reputation", which is just a measuremet on how little you have to explain :-) Aug 05 05:24:14 tiem to just makie use of that training Aug 05 05:24:35 hhf423: i know - the problem is - if you work in a company with 60,000 employees Aug 05 05:24:43 reputation doesnt go around very fast or far Aug 05 05:24:58 the "just trust me" line doesn't seem to buy a lot Aug 05 05:25:33 raster: hmm, I work in a 300,000+ company and I seem to meet the same people all the time ;-) Aug 05 05:26:20 hhf423: i tend to spread myself out Aug 05 05:26:24 but thats my position Aug 05 05:26:36 i'm unix systems architect for equities for all of asia Aug 05 05:26:46 (trade plant engineering) Aug 05 05:26:52 so i tend to have a very wide reach Aug 05 05:26:55 and since its a bank Aug 05 05:27:00 they doint give a crap who u are Aug 05 05:27:02 they dont know it Aug 05 05:27:06 what matters is your title Aug 05 05:27:08 eg Aug 05 05:27:11 VP ED or MD Aug 05 05:28:08 yeah, I know. Being IT in a non-IT company is not so nice, because youre just there so that the bloody computers work Aug 05 05:28:49 aye Aug 05 05:29:00 one of the reasons why I will not switch to a non-IT company I think Aug 05 05:29:28 then again, of all the non IT companies Banks probably realize best that IT is really important Aug 05 05:30:15 I just talked to some IT guys from a ship building co, and there they often get "we're in ships, not IT so get out of my hair" treatment Aug 05 05:31:33 raster: you still lookin for a sercer? Aug 05 05:31:37 server* Aug 05 05:31:49 hmmm, should have said "retail banks" when I said banks. In investment, they still thinks its the brilliant analysts who make the money, not the computers ... Aug 05 05:32:04 i think i could get my hands on a 4u rackmount 2 xeons's 3.4ghz runs on 220 current Aug 05 05:38:27 well it's been fun guys but i bid you goodnight Aug 05 05:39:15 raster it was damn cool getting to chat, keep up the killer work and i look forward to seeing the work you continue to do, Aug 05 05:39:22 bye all Aug 05 05:39:27 bye Aug 05 05:40:56 night! Aug 05 05:41:59 gnight Aug 05 05:46:41 hmm, wiki way slowww Aug 05 05:49:23 Heh. At least, 2007.2 splashscreen changed from Angstrom to OM. But still does not work in qemu (no touchscreen calibration on first boot, black screen with icons alog top) Aug 05 05:53:47 * hhf423 goes back to bed, later everyone! Aug 05 06:00:28 hmmm so to be able to sign up for tmobile myTmobile ... you need to be able to receive a sms with a password Aug 05 06:00:39 is there any way to manually get the sms? Aug 05 06:03:02 umm Aug 05 06:03:07 isntsms a push service Aug 05 06:03:08 ie Aug 05 06:03:14 when the provider wants to send u the sms Aug 05 06:03:27 the gsm subsystem will get data from the tower and wake up Aug 05 06:03:38 interrupt whoever is listening to the device Aug 05 06:03:51 and thus userspace needs to read the sms data? Aug 05 06:03:59 yup Aug 05 06:04:05 daMaestro, check GSM 07.05 Aug 05 06:10:43 * daMaestro looks Aug 05 06:17:35 moin Aug 05 06:20:39 wow, nice there it is, thanks raster, doc|home, Dmitry_Platonov Aug 05 06:25:51 and somehow i've managed to not use any minutes; awesome Aug 05 06:26:23 is buildhost down? Aug 05 06:27:17 it was when i last looked Aug 05 06:27:24 damn Aug 05 06:27:34 I have no qemu :( Aug 05 06:34:40 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Shadowjack]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Main_Page]] [[Minimo]] [[Category:Neo1973_phase_1_related_OpenMoko_documentation]] [[Comenzando_desde_el_principio_con_su_Neo1973]] [[Category:Documentation]] [[Hardware:NearlyTouchScreen]] [[P1_Owners]] Aug 05 06:43:23 does anyone know does the treo 650 (which openmoko supports) have wifi? I don't think it does :/ Aug 05 06:43:32 openmoko: 03mickey * r2638 10/trunk/oe/packages/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Aug 05 06:43:32 openmoko: oe/uboot: resync w/ OE Aug 05 06:43:32 openmoko: FYI: In OpenEmbedded, uboot-gta01 has just been renamed uboot-openmoko (by me) Aug 05 06:46:32 doc|home: No Aug 05 06:46:38 ok, thanks Aug 05 07:01:00 well, building updates is quite nice Aug 05 07:01:05 took 15 minutes Aug 05 07:05:59 building everything for the first time is painfull :) 11hours 'till now :) Aug 05 07:08:49 * leppoc is going home... see ya Aug 05 07:10:30 more then 11 here Aug 05 07:20:40 Hi - does anyone know the proper way to set the timezone on the neo1973? Aug 05 07:48:40 (script) planet: Jon Phillips: CC Desktop Integration Progress http://rejon.org/2007/08/05/cc-desktop-integration-progress/ Aug 05 08:07:52 sannes: ping Aug 05 08:08:41 hey :) Aug 05 08:09:48 ScaredyCat: pong Aug 05 08:10:32 you still after gdb for arm ? Aug 05 08:11:13 yes, so I can do some debugging on vacation :) Aug 05 08:11:31 I've put it on my site .... help yourself :) http://www.automated.it/openmoko/build/linux-arm-gdb.tar.gz Aug 05 08:12:48 ScaredyCat: Thanks :) Aug 05 08:15:35 ummmmmmmmmmmmmm Aug 05 08:15:41 i just noticed i got charged twice Aug 05 08:33:40 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[User_talk:Alf]] [[Kernel/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] Aug 05 08:44:01 hi Aug 05 08:55:39 wtf Aug 05 08:55:50 daMaestro got charge twice?1!! Aug 05 08:56:19 openmoko: 03laforge * r2639 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/ (defconfig-2.6.21.6-fic-gta01 defconfig-2.6.22.1-fic-gta01): use NWFPE instead of FASTFPE Aug 05 08:59:27 woot! it apears my account has been charged for about $325 Aug 05 09:06:55 * * OM Bug 686 has been created by  Aug 05 09:06:56 * * USB descriptor incorrectly claims 5 interfaces Aug 05 09:06:57 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=686 Aug 05 09:13:03 da: to recieve SMS - see the 'manually using SMS on the webpage Aug 05 09:22:17 so, why in my builds are all the main images missing? Aug 05 09:33:42 Anyone know if it's possible to get cell-site information? I've found network information, signal information, but no cell-site info. Aug 05 09:36:12 SpeedEvil, when i played around with libgsmd-tool it told me a cell-id i think Aug 05 09:36:42 but libgsmd-tool does not work anymore since the update yesterday :/ Aug 05 09:39:05 SpeedEvil: there's an AT command for it Aug 05 09:40:03 Kliment_: yes - two even. Aug 05 09:40:25 mdt: hmm Aug 05 09:40:34 SpeedEvil, hm, it just does not startup gsmd... the tool works. Aug 05 09:41:02 I was - perhaps foolishly - assuming that the wiki listed all available commands. Aug 05 09:41:07 at+creg=2 Aug 05 09:41:14 and then Aug 05 09:41:16 at+creg? Aug 05 09:41:41 does gsmd that by default with 'O'? Aug 05 09:41:41 On anohter topic. Aug 05 09:41:47 at+creg=2 Aug 05 09:41:54 sadly I don't have a neo so can't test Aug 05 09:41:55 at+creg? Aug 05 09:42:05 =2 turns it on Aug 05 09:42:13 Does anyone get a 20-30s delay sometimes when sshing to the phone? Aug 05 09:42:28 SpeedEvil, no, a dns prob? Aug 05 09:42:34 nope Aug 05 09:42:39 specifying ip Aug 05 09:42:54 SpeedEvil, theere no resolv.conf on the phone when delivered - don't know what that means... Aug 05 09:43:18 nono, the neo resolves your host Aug 05 09:43:31 put the host ip in /etc/hosts Aug 05 09:43:37 (with a name... ;) ) Aug 05 09:44:04 Ah - my phone had crashed. Aug 05 09:44:12 well - powered off Aug 05 09:44:17 oups Aug 05 09:44:28 mdt: it means that you have to set it up before doing the GPRS thing. Aug 05 09:44:32 Does anyone know of a way to set the timezone on a neo? Aug 05 09:44:40 mine sometimes powers off after some seconds in u-boot. is that normal? Aug 05 09:44:53 mdt: Yes Aug 05 09:45:02 SpeedEvil, you are logging into it via gprs? :D Aug 05 09:45:10 No. Aug 05 09:45:18 You can't do outbound connections. Aug 05 09:45:21 Taco, whatfor? Aug 05 09:45:21 err Aug 05 09:45:23 inbound Aug 05 09:45:29 at least via my provider Aug 05 09:45:32 mdt: If you hit the AUX button every 15 seconds or so, that won't happen. Aug 05 09:45:34 SpeedEvil, depends on you opertor Aug 05 09:45:51 Taco, ah, that explains exactly what i saw - thnx! Aug 05 09:45:58 inbound is usually a nono independent of operator Aug 05 09:46:00 mdt: I think it's acknowledged to be a bug. Aug 05 09:46:02 I would not want inbound packets at 3 quid a meg, without some cryptologically signed packets. Aug 05 09:46:04 hm, anyone have a work around for for gsm dying (modem dead timer) Aug 05 09:46:07 and very good reasons for that Aug 05 09:46:16 precisely, SpeedEvil Aug 05 09:46:30 Anyone in the UK. Aug 05 09:46:33 T-mobile. Aug 05 09:46:43 AT+CREG? Aug 05 09:46:43 +CREG: 2,5,"0168","9E5F" Aug 05 09:46:52 ScaredyCat: that's a cellid Aug 05 09:47:07 ScaredyCat, and now you need the operators database to know where u are... Aug 05 09:47:08 that's what he wanted isn't it Aug 05 09:47:14 They currently have an offer on PAYG phones - buy one phone with 10 quid top-up on the SIM, and get 10 free days of GPRS Aug 05 09:47:45 SpeedEvil, does /etc/host solve your problem? Aug 05 09:47:57 mdt: No, turning the phone back on did. Aug 05 09:48:01 of course... if the gps was working... it'd be very easy to generate a coverage map of our own Aug 05 09:48:31 The GPS hardware works, the software should be along real soon now Aug 05 09:48:46 mdt: ever heard of placelab? Aug 05 09:49:13 the hardware is as good as broken without the software Aug 05 09:49:47 ScaredyCat: not exactly true Aug 05 09:49:58 Kliment_: sorry, didn't see that you'd posted the AT+CREG info... Aug 05 09:50:07 * ScaredyCat must read scrollback ;) Aug 05 09:50:13 no worries Aug 05 09:50:17 Kliment_, no, what's that? Aug 05 09:50:32 mdt: a free database of radio beacons and locations Aug 05 09:50:47 Kliment_, ah, yes, heard of it but did not know the name Aug 05 09:51:00 it's the nicest thing to come out of intel research Aug 05 09:51:04 some very good people there Aug 05 09:51:10 so we put a daemon into the neo sending location & cell info there ? :D Aug 05 09:51:25 mdt: yes Aug 05 09:51:53 problem is it has a java dependency at the moment Aug 05 09:52:08 Kliment_, how that? Aug 05 09:52:21 just the way it's implemented Aug 05 09:52:36 large parts of the code? Aug 05 09:52:42 essentially all Aug 05 09:53:05 should not be so compliceted... is it a http request? Aug 05 09:53:16 it does calculation locally Aug 05 09:53:33 Kliment_, hm, did u write that? Aug 05 09:53:37 grab the source and have a look Aug 05 09:53:40 no, I didn't Aug 05 09:53:48 intel research guys did Aug 05 09:53:55 but I've used it for several projects Aug 05 09:54:35 but u have source access..? Aug 05 09:54:47 mdt: it's open source Aug 05 09:55:00 is placelab owned by intel? Aug 05 09:55:08 http://placelab.org/toolkit/ Aug 05 09:55:53 mdt: surely it'd be better to put it into a sqlite db and then sync it once a week or somehting... Aug 05 09:56:16 but also keep a copy on the neo... Aug 05 09:56:28 ScaredyCat: I think that's pretty much what it does Aug 05 09:56:35 so that when gps was down you could still map yourself Aug 05 09:56:39 yes Aug 05 09:56:47 that's the whole point of it Aug 05 09:56:56 good Aug 05 09:57:01 :D Aug 05 09:57:08 what is this - GSM cell-site ID to alphanumeric and coords? Aug 05 09:57:22 it's an adaptable location source Aug 05 09:57:27 it uses gps if available Aug 05 09:57:40 if not it triangulates a location using any available radio beacon Aug 05 09:57:47 cellid, bluetooth, wifi Aug 05 09:57:57 nice Aug 05 09:58:01 all wrapped up Aug 05 09:58:04 is it reliable? Aug 05 09:58:14 as reliable as the data ;) Aug 05 09:58:15 as reliable as the radio and the database Aug 05 09:58:18 genau Aug 05 09:58:22 ScaredyCat, there is no oe-ipkg sqlite3 or am i wrong? Aug 05 09:58:23 and is it efficient enough to call multiple times per second Aug 05 09:58:24 :) Aug 05 09:58:30 well... Aug 05 09:58:34 hehehe Aug 05 09:58:37 raster: the processing is pretty light Aug 05 09:58:38 I hav it built for the go.. Aug 05 09:58:41 ttgo Aug 05 09:58:47 ok Aug 05 09:58:48 cool Aug 05 09:58:57 and ttgo apps run w/o mods on neo Aug 05 09:58:58 ah - right. Aug 05 09:58:59 raster: but it requires java as it is Aug 05 09:59:09 i'd love maybe one day to see games that can use gps, accelerometers etc. Aug 05 09:59:19 to play things like "capture the flag" Aug 05 09:59:24 or other games Aug 05 09:59:24 raster: yeah, I'm working with some people working on such stuff Aug 05 09:59:26 butin real life Aug 05 09:59:28 with your phone Aug 05 09:59:34 run around a real city and real "map" Aug 05 09:59:37 raster: mixed reality and related concepts Aug 05 09:59:50 phone can keep up with orientation and location at a reasonable hz Aug 05 09:59:51 so it should be pretty easy to fix for oe packagining Aug 05 09:59:58 oooh ewww Aug 05 09:59:59 java Aug 05 10:00:07 raster: the euro-commission projects IPCITY and PASION are working on this sort of thing Aug 05 10:00:08 there goes efficiency Aug 05 10:00:15 might just port it to c Aug 05 10:00:15 :) Aug 05 10:00:16 lol Aug 05 10:00:18 raster: the code is simple grab the source and port Aug 05 10:00:29 java is ok cpu-wise these days Aug 05 10:00:36 buty the jvm's memory footprint is a beast Aug 05 10:00:42 raster: the only nonportable thing is the interface to other parts Aug 05 10:00:46 raster: accelerometers can't be used for inertial navigation like that. Aug 05 10:01:04 SpeedEvil: accels can be used for inertial navigation Aug 05 10:01:09 raster: Well - not without getting about 5 orders of magnitude better than the state of the art. Aug 05 10:01:20 SpeedEvil: so you poll gps once a second and use accels in between Aug 05 10:01:49 The ones mentioned in the mailing list are of debatable use even for that. Aug 05 10:01:51 are there any efforts to reverse engineer the gsm stack or is that a completely unreasonable idea? Aug 05 10:01:59 (unofficial of course :) ) Aug 05 10:02:00 It's impossible Aug 05 10:02:10 we don't ahve access to the flash image, or how to flash it Aug 05 10:02:11 SpeedEvil: there was a virtual reality conference recently where a company was demoing an accel-based motion capture suit Aug 05 10:02:28 doc|home: why would you want to do that? Aug 05 10:02:30 SpeedEvil: can't it be lifted off the chip? Aug 05 10:02:45 Kliment_: theoretically, to replace the one non FOSS piece of it Aug 05 10:03:09 doc|home: and make it noncompliant and illegal to use anywhere Aug 05 10:03:14 Kliment_: the accels mentioned on the mailing list are some 16 times worse than the state of the art. For motion capture, it works well, as you know all the limbs are attached. This _drastically_ reduces the number of variables. Aug 05 10:03:25 Kliment_: reverse engineering is legal Aug 05 10:03:32 It would actually make the phone illegal to sell in the UK. Aug 05 10:03:38 doc|home: but running it with a modified firmware is not Aug 05 10:03:38 doc|home: the whole point is - why? Aug 05 10:03:39 And to add the open-source bit. Aug 05 10:03:40 how? Aug 05 10:03:49 raster: what I just said Aug 05 10:03:55 thats not a good reason imho Aug 05 10:03:58 Changing the GSM stack means that some people will do bad stuff with it. Aug 05 10:04:05 just to replace with oss is not a good idea Aug 05 10:04:13 when it means its basically non-compliant Aug 05 10:04:16 raster: as it stands now, if there's a bug in the firmware, the phones have to be sent back Aug 05 10:04:23 is likely to bring lawsuits and other crap from telco's Aug 05 10:04:24 if I have a software defined radio on that band I can completely jam the airwaves for everybody Aug 05 10:04:37 in the end it will result in telcos finding a way to ban devices from a manufacturer like openmoko Aug 05 10:04:38 doc|home: oh, you can reflash with a new image from software Aug 05 10:04:41 and everyone loses Aug 05 10:04:44 This being a mass-market phone, do you really want tens of thousands of twelve-yearolds having a 'free data transfer' app that blocks everyone elses radio comms? Aug 05 10:05:07 in the end Aug 05 10:05:13 the gsm firmware is like the vga bios Aug 05 10:05:14 Kliment_: I didn't think you could. Wasn't there something that was buggy but would require people to send back the phones to fix? Aug 05 10:05:17 or any other bios/firmware Aug 05 10:05:20 SpeedEvil: that should be automatic on trains ;) Aug 05 10:05:22 it is inside the gsm device Aug 05 10:05:25 and can stay there Aug 05 10:05:37 consider a firmware bug in the gdm subsystem a full hardware bug Aug 05 10:05:40 and is non-correctable Aug 05 10:05:57 I do remember someone implementing a sub-dsl data transfer system that ran on phone lines Aug 05 10:06:02 the questions is - where do u stops with the "open source" Aug 05 10:06:03 thing Aug 05 10:06:06 eg Aug 05 10:06:20 you dont have the source to the microcode that lies underneath the arm instructionset Aug 05 10:06:28 (well ok- i dont know if there is - but x86 cpus do have it) Aug 05 10:06:33 it is nontrivial but possible to implement GSM in an SDR Aug 05 10:06:33 if RS had his way.. it'd be everyhting Aug 05 10:06:41 but it doesnt prevent you doing things the device was designed to do Aug 05 10:06:44 raster: in a sense, that's why I'm wondering. I mean, I'm completely hypothesising here, maybe going to far, but it could be fixed in software, but they won't even release a firmware update. It seems a bit silly really. Aug 05 10:06:59 Having GSM in a SDR is not the problem. Aug 05 10:07:07 s/to far/too far Aug 05 10:07:08 SpeedEvil: it's noncompliant Aug 05 10:07:15 SpeedEvil: illegal to use Aug 05 10:07:36 what's illegal about it by the way? Aug 05 10:07:36 SpeedEvil: because you can tell it to transmit whenever the hell you want and destroy TDMA Aug 05 10:07:37 i think open source is a valid thing *IF* it brings value and flexibiility to an aspect of the dev ice/hardwares features that it wouldnt normally have Aug 05 10:07:37 Having open-source GSM easily hackable by the asocial 14 year-old hacker and distributable to tens of thousands of other 12 year olds on their already existing phone is. Aug 05 10:07:54 ths gsm raido subsyste, is a delicate path to tread Aug 05 10:08:11 and the consequences of making it open and hackable are none to do with license and copyright etc. issues Aug 05 10:08:17 Too many IT people tend to think of radio waves as the internet. Aug 05 10:08:26 radio licensing is messy Aug 05 10:08:30 they are going to be consequences that likely woudl impact the project as a whole to its detriment Aug 05 10:08:31 When they are really a party line, or a shared ethernet segment. Aug 05 10:08:35 and you want to stick clear of those Aug 05 10:08:39 even *IF* it is possible Aug 05 10:08:45 though I love the new EU rules on radios Aug 05 10:08:55 ? Aug 05 10:09:07 the power regulations for unlicensed devices Aug 05 10:09:11 Ah. Aug 05 10:09:13 2.4G? Aug 05 10:09:17 Sigh. Aug 05 10:09:20 and everything else unlicensed Aug 05 10:09:39 if you listen to the channel before you send, you can send at any power when the channel is clear Aug 05 10:09:42 for a short burst Aug 05 10:09:45 Sigh - as the solution to interference now becomes 'buy a new longer device'. Aug 05 10:09:58 Only if you can recieve the interference. Aug 05 10:10:01 yes Aug 05 10:10:10 and if you can't you're not allowed to send Aug 05 10:10:14 s/longer/high-power/ Aug 05 10:10:50 Going to higher power in the face of interference just causes an arms race. Aug 05 10:11:00 yes Aug 05 10:11:03 And means that mobile devices lose. Aug 05 10:11:17 but this regulation actually makes sense Aug 05 10:11:20 Kliment_: but you have to be able to detect interferences at long distance in order to confirm it the channel is clean Aug 05 10:11:25 Magon: of course Aug 05 10:11:37 Magon: you have to be able to detect it as far as you are sending it Aug 05 10:11:46 You cannot demodulate the signal from a thousand background devices. Aug 05 10:11:48 so, what's the difference between an open gsm setup and an open wifi setup? why is the latter less unlikely? Aug 05 10:12:07 doc|home: I don't understand your question Aug 05 10:12:11 doc|home: because with an open GSM network it takes only several radios to stop people making emergency calls. Aug 05 10:12:23 SpeedEvil: and wifi can't do that? Aug 05 10:12:25 And people actually will die. Aug 05 10:12:26 SpeedEvil: it only takes one Aug 05 10:12:26 No. Aug 05 10:12:29 ok Aug 05 10:12:31 thanks Aug 05 10:12:35 doc|home: gsm is cell site..it you can control your GSM you can destroy one cell Aug 05 10:12:48 Not quite one cell. Aug 05 10:12:48 sweet! er, forget I said that :o Aug 05 10:12:49 this is changing though Aug 05 10:12:54 But you can kill one frequency. Aug 05 10:12:59 which is 8 users Aug 05 10:13:04 8-16 Aug 05 10:13:08 4th generation phones will be IP-only Aug 05 10:13:14 with microcells Aug 05 10:13:19 Err. Aug 05 10:13:22 so that could potentially be opened up? Aug 05 10:13:27 microcells only work in the city Aug 05 10:13:47 SpeedEvil: yes, that is true Aug 05 10:13:51 The fundamental problem is: Radio is a shared medium. Aug 05 10:14:07 SpeedEvil: so 4G will eventually work in cities only at first Aug 05 10:14:09 and it is easy to DOS Aug 05 10:14:23 This means: Range at the moment is gotten not by ramping the power up - but by having all the other nodes silent when transmitting. Aug 05 10:14:37 This _vastly_ improves performance. Aug 05 10:14:39 SpeedEvil: the idea is to have user-owned or co-owned access points Aug 05 10:14:46 And the cell-site coordinates all of this. Aug 05 10:14:58 u know what? i just did my first call with the neo including sound! wow... :D but it only works with headset, not with handset :/ Aug 05 10:15:00 SpeedEvil: yes and this is the idea behind the new eu regulation Aug 05 10:15:28 ...and everything using libgsmd-tool. nice thing. Aug 05 10:15:39 putting more power in transmition is careless...wont help that much Aug 05 10:16:06 the point of this is hugh-power short bursts Aug 05 10:16:10 like UWB Aug 05 10:16:13 high( Aug 05 10:16:15 high* Aug 05 10:16:23 But in an unlicensed band - you can't listen to the eleventy million protocols. Aug 05 10:16:29 As you can't understand them. Aug 05 10:16:40 SpeedEvil: no, you treat them as a noise floor Aug 05 10:16:54 SpeedEvil: if noise is over a threshold you don't send Aug 05 10:17:20 Well - that's one way to fix interferance - reduce the number of transmitters. Aug 05 10:17:32 I have the document somewhere, hold on Aug 05 10:17:41 ETSI EN 300 220-1 V2.1.1 Aug 05 10:19:13 For LBT equipment, the device shall listen on the next intended frequency before transmitting. If it is intended to move Aug 05 10:19:16 to a different channel then this channel can be monitored whilst still transmitting at its first channel. If it is not intended Aug 05 10:19:20 to move to a different channel then it should be treated as a single frequency device waiting for a free channel. Aug 05 10:19:31 then you can ignore all duty cycle requirements while transmitting Aug 05 10:19:49 you just listen to each slot before you use it Aug 05 10:20:27 so you do frequency hopping and skip the channels that are busy Aug 05 10:20:47 Kliment_, umm, when you say "any power", exactly what do you mean? Aug 05 10:20:50 Assuming that you're not using the whole band. Aug 05 10:20:57 802.11n anyone? Aug 05 10:21:00 mjr: sorry I got confused there Aug 05 10:21:02 i think my touchscreen has died :( Aug 05 10:21:15 mjr: I meant ignoring duty cycles Aug 05 10:21:39 mjr: so theoretically you can transmit at your maximum output for 100% Aug 05 10:21:54 xzcvczx: have you rebooted. Aug 05 10:21:57 mjr: and not step on anyone's toes Aug 05 10:22:24 this is new, from last year Aug 05 10:22:46 SpeedEvil: about 8 times Aug 05 10:22:48 it's been technically possible for a whilem now it's legally possible Aug 05 10:22:59 while* Aug 05 10:23:12 xzcvczx: have you tried pulling the battery and leaving it for a few mins? Aug 05 10:23:28 but yeah, frequency hopping with listening checks seems reasonable for some use Aug 05 10:23:32 s Aug 05 10:23:35 xzcvczx: After that, I think your next option is the community list. Aug 05 10:23:39 SpeedEvil: no, tried removing battery for about 10 secs Aug 05 10:23:59 SpeedEvil: will try that soon Aug 05 10:24:01 mjr: it makes a lot of sense, and now it's legal to transmit at 100% if the channels are clear Aug 05 10:24:12 SpeedEvil: is there a way to get it to redo the calibration Aug 05 10:24:42 mjr: before there were duty cycle classes, so a class 1 device could only transmit at 0.1% DC, even if the air was clear Aug 05 10:24:54 xzcvczx, there is a tool called x..cal something that does that i think Aug 05 10:25:04 xzcvczx: it completely doesn't respond at all? Aug 05 10:25:13 SpeedEvil: not one little bit Aug 05 10:25:54 bbs trying the remove battery for few mins Aug 05 10:26:28 what is the ts-device anyway? there is no /dev/ts..? Aug 05 10:27:31 mdt: /dev/input/touchscreen0 Aug 05 10:27:41 mdt: the kernel module loads successfully so that probably exists anyway Aug 05 10:28:06 do a `cat /dev/input/touchscreen0 ` and touch the screen... Aug 05 10:30:31 mdt: good point will try that Aug 05 10:31:40 hmmm seems to be also /class/input/input2 Aug 05 10:33:05 xzcvczx: On my neo touchscreen0 is a symlink to event1 Aug 05 10:33:08 pulling battery didnt work unfortunately Aug 05 10:33:10 xzcvczx, kill x-session before... Aug 05 10:33:40 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[Manually_using_GSM]] [[Devirginator/it]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Gsmd]] [[User:Emdete]] Aug 05 10:35:57 mdt: hmm killed x and tried it but its always transmitting data so bit hard to test that way Aug 05 10:36:15 xzcvczx, how do u mean? Aug 05 10:36:43 well you try cat'ing touchscreen0 Aug 05 10:37:00 yes. Aug 05 10:37:13 it starts printing garbage on the screen, when i touch the screen Aug 05 10:37:23 exactly Aug 05 10:37:26 mdt: mine is always printing garbage on the screen Aug 05 10:37:47 xzcvczx, hm, something stuck under the cover? :D Aug 05 10:38:04 Have you got something lik breadcrump stuck in your screen? Aug 05 10:38:22 hmmmm time to find a screwdriver i guess then Aug 05 10:39:53 mental note: no eating near the phone :) Aug 05 10:40:53 hm, did someone successfully got an sms by neo? Aug 05 10:41:01 doc|home: Only liquids, they won't get stuck ;) Aug 05 10:41:05 haha Aug 05 10:43:54 my gsmd crashed when a sms arrived. perhaps a breadcrump stuck there too? :D so anyone successfull received a sms? Aug 05 10:44:16 xzcvczx: I'd wayit Aug 05 10:44:18 wait Aug 05 10:44:24 they may want failed units for debug Aug 05 10:44:37 mail on community list - then dissasemble Aug 05 10:44:45 if no response Aug 05 10:45:05 IMO, at this stage - finding hardware bugs is more important than anything else. Aug 05 10:45:25 mdt: what did your log say? Aug 05 10:46:34 gsmd exits all the time on the one I've got here, think there is a bug in gsmd Aug 05 10:47:05 sannes: put sim in another phone and clear texts? Aug 05 10:47:16 mdt: sms worked in manual mode, i was able to send and receive them, dunno if that answers your question Aug 05 10:47:49 SpeedEvil: if its just something under the cover i would rather fix it now than have to wait ages Aug 05 10:48:22 ml8128: what was the command you used? Aug 05 10:48:54 xzcvczx: at least post on the community list - they have to know about this sort of stuff. Aug 05 10:48:55 xzcvczx: those on the wiki page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_SMS Aug 05 10:49:22 xzcvczx: Is that the reason why I get "gsmd.c:78:alive_tmr_cb() modem dead!" ? Aug 05 10:50:06 hmm... typing halt from gtkterm2 freezes the phone, works via ssh though.... Aug 05 10:51:45 anyways, off to lunch Aug 05 10:51:54 sannes: well i get gsmd crashing as well with the same thing Aug 05 10:52:10 sannes: and i think it only started after i sent a couple of texts to it Aug 05 10:52:36 is there a way to dump the gsmd-gsm communication? Aug 05 10:53:07 only gsm-stuff in dmesg is <6>gta01-pm-gsm gta01-pm-gsm.0: powering up GSM, thus disconnecting serial console Aug 05 10:53:07 strace Aug 05 10:53:46 xzcvczx: can you strace a crash? Aug 05 10:53:49 nohup strace -p $gsmpid -s 9999 -o /media/card/gsmd.strace Aug 05 10:53:51 ml8128, what do u mean with manual mode? libgsmd-tool? yes i try that too. 'sl' coredumps the tool Aug 05 10:53:54 or similar Aug 05 10:55:38 SpeedEvil: well i cant pull apart the phone tonight anyway will have to be done tomorrow as dont have a T6 Aug 05 10:55:41 On an unrelated topic. Aug 05 10:55:51 UK - phone insurance? Aug 05 10:55:56 Recommendations? Aug 05 10:56:56 phone-insurance? what's that? against breadcrump stuck in your screen? Aug 05 10:57:13 Theft, fire, third-party, ... Aug 05 10:57:49 wow, that exists? Aug 05 10:57:50 accidently dropping it in the ground when a new version comes out ... Aug 05 10:58:06 Well - yes. Aug 05 10:59:06 It's usually included in mobile phone contracts - at least here. Aug 05 10:59:13 remiss: dropping it 'in' the ground? that would require quite a drop Aug 05 10:59:38 remiss is a spelunker. Aug 05 10:59:54 remiss: yeah hi insurance company x i just accidentally dropped my phone off the eiffel tower and its embedded itself 2 inches in the pavement Aug 05 11:00:21 haha :p Aug 05 11:01:17 but seriously.. $400 isn't much for a phone Aug 05 11:02:12 and with wifi as well Aug 05 11:02:41 depends how often new releases come out... Aug 05 11:03:17 ahh i see buildhost is down Aug 05 11:03:19 hmm... yeah.. better get insurance then Aug 05 11:03:34 openmoko.com is down too... Aug 05 11:03:45 oh lol Aug 05 11:07:53 if i use gsm-tool, doing 'o' (off) and 'O' (on) again. does that reset the gsm chip? Aug 05 11:08:36 my GPRS script has echo 0 > /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on Aug 05 11:08:36 sleep 5 Aug 05 11:08:36 echo 1 > /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on Aug 05 11:08:36 sleep 2 Aug 05 11:09:03 is that the same gsmd does? Aug 05 11:09:08 dunno Aug 05 11:09:38 you do not like gsmd? :D Aug 05 11:09:46 It does not do GPRS Aug 05 11:09:50 AIUI Aug 05 11:09:57 Yet. Aug 05 11:09:59 0710 still missing Aug 05 11:10:45 do anyone know how 'magic sms' works? the sms for setting your phone by provider Aug 05 11:10:57 there is a port number in a sms Aug 05 11:11:04 xzcvczx: hm, it seems more random to me (always had smses on the sim card) .. but, lets see how it acts after a AT+CMGD=0,4 :P Aug 05 11:11:12 that specifies the receiver on the phone Aug 05 11:12:02 ok so it is SMS but on different port? Aug 05 11:12:17 yes. in fact even a mms is a sms Aug 05 11:12:30 you also can register a java app to be reciever for sms Aug 05 11:12:44 (if you are allowed to do so) Aug 05 11:13:17 that is nice Aug 05 11:13:41 an there are also different type, i.e. 'on screen' Aug 05 11:13:57 some handsets just diplay those and they disapear after reading Aug 05 11:14:02 ok so sms hell :-) Aug 05 11:14:09 yes Aug 05 11:14:27 but i hope we can handle all SMS by our way Aug 05 11:14:34 shure Aug 05 11:14:35 like logging and dumping it Aug 05 11:14:51 but if you want to be complient you have to follow the rules Aug 05 11:16:11 yes..but beside that i would like to log in separate file all in/out going SMS including special ones Aug 05 11:16:16 is there any way to print out what the touch screen is sensing in human terms like touch @ 0,0 Aug 05 11:17:11 Magon, shure, that's the minimum i think ;) Aug 05 11:17:22 if you read the interface that are absolute location values on screen Aug 05 11:17:26 xzcvczx: xev Aug 05 11:17:44 start xev through SSH Aug 05 11:18:04 SpeedEvil: tryed that didnt print anything.... but that only works if the touching is inside the box doesnt it? Aug 05 11:18:15 is the protocol on /dev/input/touchscreen0 documented somewhere? Aug 05 11:18:20 it should work for the entire window Aug 05 11:18:26 it's probably 'event' format Aug 05 11:20:08 hexdump -C /dev/input/touchscreen0 seems to imply that it's 32 byte packets Aug 05 11:20:54 has anyone ever had a problem with an empty battery? - I just had a situation where the neo could not boot, even with usb attached - had to use the second battery just to switch it on, after that the empty battery could be used again... Aug 05 11:21:02 you may use `ts_print` Aug 05 11:21:25 or ts_print_raw Aug 05 11:21:35 for the raw uncalibrated info Aug 05 11:22:10 kristian-m: give it some time to charge the flat battery next time Aug 05 11:22:28 kristian-m: 10-15 will do Aug 05 11:23:06 xzcvczx hmmkay Aug 05 11:27:57 kristian-m, i read about that Aug 05 11:28:37 kristian-m, its somewhere in the wiki. an emptry battery will be charged some time first before u can boot Aug 05 11:30:48 and now for something completly different... i would like to compile some small tools for the neo. what would be the fastest way to do so? i wouldn't like to learn bitbake/.../whatever. an ipkg would be enough i think. how can i create one? Aug 05 11:31:53 With bitbake. Aug 05 11:34:19 * SpeedEvil mehs, and starts fvwm on the neo, remotely. Aug 05 11:34:21 Hmm. Aug 05 11:34:25 Most stuff works OK. Aug 05 11:34:34 xvkbd is actually a better keyboard IMO. Aug 05 11:35:14 ewanm89_laptop, seems to be complicated... Aug 05 11:36:07 ewanm89_laptop, can you explain to me how that works? Aug 05 11:39:18 mdt: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course Aug 05 11:40:04 Kensan, that sounds promising :D thanks! Aug 05 11:40:43 mdt: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Create_a_package_from_existing_sources Aug 05 11:41:37 okay, the first seems wrong because i don't want to change the flash image. i would prefere to get a ipkg Aug 05 11:43:19 Kensan, can bitbake do packages? Aug 05 11:58:25 I am _really_ surprised as to the screen. Aug 05 11:58:49 I realised this when I noticed I was using an 80*25 xterm, and had more stuff on screen. Aug 05 11:59:04 And snow was piling up on top of my window. Aug 05 12:06:50 SpeedEvil - You use fvwm, xterm, etc. remotely on the neo? Aug 05 12:07:44 yes. Aug 05 12:08:01 I like xvkbd _much_ better than the stock keyboard Aug 05 12:08:31 i like pie Aug 05 12:13:37 SpeedEvil: may I dig your brain on a few hw questions? it's tengentially related to OM ;-) Aug 05 12:13:46 Yes. Aug 05 12:13:52 * Stephmw realises he can't spell tangentially... Aug 05 12:13:56 thanks :) Aug 05 12:14:05 * SpeedEvil was wondering if it had to do with tengus. Aug 05 12:14:21 I'm curious about putting a photobank together from components... Aug 05 12:14:40 I just don't need the extra mp4/mp3 rubbish offered by current commercial stuff Aug 05 12:14:40 You mean a 'digital photo frame' type thingy? Aug 05 12:14:59 Or a portable one. Aug 05 12:15:10 I still don't know exact cause, but gsmd hasn't crashed since all sms was remmoved .. Aug 05 12:15:13 pretty much - depending on screen size it's either a frame or a portable Aug 05 12:15:28 (like xzcvczx said) Aug 05 12:16:15 Stephmw: basically. It's going to be much more expensive than normal ones. As you're buying in single unit quantities. Then there is the problem that graphical LCDs fall into an awkward place. Aug 05 12:17:11 You can't get microcontrollers with enough RAM to drive them, even if they are fast enough, so you have to go with a CPU+ROM+RAM, which is large enough to drive the LCD, which may be very tricky if it's LVDS, and to decode JPEGs. Aug 05 12:17:38 * Stephmw winces Aug 05 12:17:40 This is all possible, but it's decidedly non-trivial. Aug 05 12:17:54 I'd thought as much, what about cannibalising an existing frame? Aug 05 12:18:12 the problem for me is that existing ones are all SD, I need CF Aug 05 12:18:15 Basically, you're limited to the firmware that's on there. It _may_ be possible to hack it. Aug 05 12:18:18 and I'd need to somehow add raw support Aug 05 12:18:37 The 'easy' alternative is an old laptop. Aug 05 12:18:48 Re-wrapped with the display outside. Aug 05 12:19:03 * Stephmw nods Aug 05 12:19:19 hmm, so an old one with a 5" screen could do Aug 05 12:19:23 Unless you happen to want a 2.8" LCD one :) Aug 05 12:20:23 I'm not too fussed about ultra-portable really... Aug 05 12:20:36 but 10" is way too big to lug around on a trip Aug 05 12:22:08 If you can find a photo-frame type thing that will take input from a USB mass-storage device, then you could use the neo + CF reader Aug 05 12:22:44 how are all the package-file build for ipkg? i do not want to flash the whole rootfs every time i want to test my app... any hints? Aug 05 12:22:59 why not Aug 05 12:23:03 reflashing is fun! Aug 05 12:23:04 : Aug 05 12:23:06 :) Aug 05 12:23:35 SpeedEvil: aye, true enough Aug 05 12:24:19 SpeedEvil: and power use is something I don't even want to think about.. I know it'll be a pain Aug 05 12:26:08 mdt - scp the new .ipk on the neo; ipkg install new.ipk Aug 05 12:27:13 Elrond, i have no ipk, how do i create on? Aug 05 12:27:17 on->one Aug 05 12:27:47 Elrond, using mokomakefile i get a flash image Aug 05 12:27:59 Elrond, but where do the ipk files come from? Aug 05 12:28:27 Stephmw: a guy I know did this http://www.awooga.nl/gallery/modding/projectbling/ Aug 05 12:31:01 plus I created a distro based on TS that would scan the network for a framePIx share, and display all the pics it found.. Aug 05 12:32:32 mdt: why not scp it to the phone Aug 05 12:32:47 ScaredyCat: interesting, looking it over now Aug 05 12:33:02 ScaredyCat, you got me wrong. i /have/ no .ipk file. i want to create one. Aug 05 12:33:08 he's not very good at the text bit Stephmw ;) Aug 05 12:33:28 yeah, mdt, I meand why not just scp you app to the phone... Aug 05 12:33:40 s/you/your/ Aug 05 12:33:40 ScaredyCat meant: yeah, mdt, I meand why not just scp your app to the phone... Aug 05 12:34:11 ScaredyCat, it is an app and lots of libs crying for package managment Aug 05 12:34:18 ah ok.. Aug 05 12:34:25 tar it then ;) Aug 05 12:34:47 ScaredyCat, i haven't even build it Aug 05 12:35:00 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[P1_Owners]] [[OpenMoko_Local_groups:_Boston]] Aug 05 12:35:14 oh... Aug 05 12:35:17 mdt: tar uo just the app and libs - scp the tarball and untar? Aug 05 12:35:18 someone here told me to use bitbake/... i looked into it and think this would be very helpful Aug 05 12:35:33 any idea why openmoko.com is down? :P Aug 05 12:35:34 technically using bitbake (oe) would be best Aug 05 12:35:52 but if u are mostly doign development - ie modifying code regularly and hacking it up - compile, copy, test in fast cycles Aug 05 12:35:56 the whole process for adding even the simplest ap with oe/bitbake is just crap Aug 05 12:35:58 packages will be waaay overkill Aug 05 12:36:01 raster, ScaredyCat i know how to tar but as i said: the build is not done, package managment is what i am looking for. Aug 05 12:36:23 ScaredyCat, does not look so for me Aug 05 12:36:32 raster, really? Aug 05 12:36:39 imho Aug 05 12:36:41 they would be Aug 05 12:36:44 ScaredyCat: yeah, it's not a recipe for making a photoframe, but it's another example Aug 05 12:36:49 as frankly a package is also a tarball Aug 05 12:36:51 effectively Aug 05 12:36:53 plus extra Aug 05 12:37:00 i like the plus extra Aug 05 12:37:13 in the end a simple tarball of the relevanty files is good enough for development Aug 05 12:37:24 and: i am talking about ~40 libs i need, some already avaiable on oe. Aug 05 12:37:29 if you aim is to make packages for other people to use on their mokos Aug 05 12:37:33 then a package is a good idea Aug 05 12:37:36 for just yourslef Aug 05 12:37:39 i'd go a tarball Aug 05 12:37:41 in fact Aug 05 12:37:50 i might be tempted to use rsync Aug 05 12:37:50 raster, okay, then how do i build? Aug 05 12:37:57 aaah Aug 05 12:38:00 raster, i did that the last time. yes Aug 05 12:38:09 for that - u need a cross-compiler Aug 05 12:38:18 frankly scratchbox might work Aug 05 12:38:19 oh! really? :D Aug 05 12:38:27 it makes building brain-dead easy Aug 05 12:38:36 i have one already. mokomakefile did one for me Aug 05 12:38:40 it includes a cross-compiler Aug 05 12:38:46 as well as arm libs etc. Aug 05 12:38:47 in a chroot Aug 05 12:38:55 so the chrooted env looks like an arm system Aug 05 12:39:00 but running on x86 Aug 05 12:39:14 it uses the kernels misc binary support + qemu to make arm binaries work Aug 05 12:39:25 but why doing different, when the openmoko guys use bitbake? Aug 05 12:39:28 so u compile under scratchbox'es chroot like u do anywhere Aug 05 12:39:33 and tar up /usr/local Aug 05 12:39:34 or whatever Aug 05 12:39:40 i know Aug 05 12:39:50 bitbake can do it too Aug 05 12:39:52 its not as easy Aug 05 12:39:59 or as convenient Aug 05 12:39:59 imho Aug 05 12:40:26 it sucks more than a hooker on a saturday night Aug 05 12:40:30 okay, back to the question: where do the packages come from? Aug 05 12:41:51 mdt: after an app is compiled, bitbake packs it Aug 05 12:42:12 the benefit of using the moko way would be to get new version easy Aug 05 12:42:14 mdt: under build/tmp/deploy/ipk Aug 05 12:42:41 olv, it did not for me. i run it once and there is not one .ipk file - have i to tell him to do so? Aug 05 12:43:14 mdt: you use mokomakefile, right? Aug 05 12:43:36 olv, shit, my fault, typo in my find .... Aug 05 12:43:42 olv i try ;) Aug 05 12:44:34 problem here is the following: i would like to drive the neo without X11. i use directfb and lots of libs already in oe. i would like to get all those. easy, i think Aug 05 12:45:17 olv, thanks. next question: where is the list of .bb that are build for openmoko? can i easily eedit that? Aug 05 12:45:57 mdt: bitbake directfb, then copy the .ipk's to neo Aug 05 12:46:10 mdt: or check /etc/ipkg/base-feed.conf in neo out Aug 05 12:46:16 oh, that would be too easy ;) Aug 05 12:47:09 If it's in OE then you can most likely just bitbake it. Aug 05 12:47:10 olv, what do u mean 'check ...'? Aug 05 12:47:28 mdt: take a look at :) Aug 05 12:47:43 there are urls in there.... shure, i know that file Aug 05 12:48:12 so what - these point to the openmoko packages... or am i wrong? Aug 05 12:48:43 mdt: you can edit it to point to your local build directory Aug 05 12:48:54 mdt: then ipkg update; ipkg install Aug 05 12:49:08 mdt: it will resolve dependencies automagically Aug 05 12:49:24 mdt: just like apt-get Aug 05 12:49:38 oh! it does the packeges-files too! wow! bitbake rocks.... Aug 05 12:50:53 is it also easy to merge in some options to the ./configure step with bitbake? Aug 05 12:53:38 mdt: I would modify .bb files directly for that Aug 05 12:55:20 mdt: I was away for lunch when you asked me about manual GSM Aug 05 12:56:20 ml8128, yes... how did you send/receive sms... i used libgsm-tool. my gsmd crashed on receive. Aug 05 12:56:55 bad gsmd Aug 05 12:56:56 bad Aug 05 12:57:11 olv, aren't they overwritten at some point? Aug 05 12:57:26 mdt: according to the wiki there are problems with gsmd, I used cu and sent manually the commands to the gsm chip via serial line Aug 05 12:57:50 mdt: read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_SMS and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM Aug 05 12:58:08 ml8128, :D i saw that - try Aug 05 12:58:36 ml8128, but u have to encode the sms pdu yourself then... i thought someone does that for me Aug 05 12:58:46 * ScaredyCat slaps tomtom Aug 05 12:59:04 fancy powering off the hardware when the app fails to run... Aug 05 12:59:13 makes porting so much harder Aug 05 12:59:46 mdt: the gsm chip has an "sms mode" allowing to type simple ascii commands, so nothing to encode. it's detailed in the wiki Aug 05 12:59:59 ml8128, cool Aug 05 13:00:16 ml8128, i liked the gsmd aproach... :/ Aug 05 13:00:41 mdt: no Aug 05 13:01:38 mdt: the recipes won't be modified during the baking process Aug 05 13:01:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_SMS Aug 05 13:02:17 oops Aug 05 13:02:26 * ScaredyCat stfu Aug 05 13:04:42 is there something with the ts driver? i tried ts_test. it draws straight lines vertically. but if u do horizontal moves the lines get really shaky.... Aug 05 13:04:55 someone else saw that? Aug 05 13:13:12 mdt: when i rotate my neo, the previously vertical lines get shaky, to me it seems like my hand is less stable when doing horizontal lines... :D Aug 05 13:13:15 It's results from the hardware. Aug 05 13:13:23 It may or may not be configurable to be better Aug 05 13:14:07 argh, my neo isn't working anymore.. it froze while i was drawing the lines, then switched off... can't switch it on :( Aug 05 13:14:32 battery? Aug 05 13:15:02 removed it, doesn't help... and when plugged to usb doesn't work either Aug 05 13:15:32 SpeedEvil: what is the lower threshold before deep disacharge state ? Aug 05 13:16:34 battvolt was still around 3680 like 5 minutes ago... Aug 05 13:18:56 2.8V Aug 05 13:19:07 SpeedEvil: well, seems it's the battery, my neo works with the second one Aug 05 13:19:13 It won't work when USB only no battery Aug 05 13:19:38 SpeedEvil: meant usb + battery 1, and I was way over 2.8volts, unless the meters is flawed Aug 05 13:21:39 SpeedEvil: doesn't work with battery 1, even when plugged to usb. I'll leave it plugged a bit longer to see... Aug 05 13:26:18 * ScaredyCat is happy that the neo fits perfectly in the hip pouch that the p910i came with... Aug 05 13:51:31 How to test a custom build GTK+ app in openmoko simulator in Ubuntu 7.04 Aug 05 13:55:56 anandanbu: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qemu#Setting_up_USB_connection Aug 05 13:56:35 anandanbu: if you are running qemu Aug 05 13:57:42 olv: but how to test an app in the simulator Aug 05 14:01:16 ok Aug 05 14:13:38 SpeedEvil: the battery goes from 3300 to 3000 in about 110 seconds then the neo shuts down... Aug 05 14:14:17 hello Aug 05 14:27:28 ml8128: 3.3V is way down the curve. Aug 05 14:27:49 It will start plummeting at 3.5V or so. Aug 05 14:28:15 3.7V or so is where the knee starts. Aug 05 14:29:38 noon: hi there :) Aug 05 14:30:09 SpeedEvil: ok, thank you Aug 05 14:35:20 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MacOS_X]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Ambient_light_sensor]] Aug 05 14:38:36 !seen balrogg Aug 05 14:38:36 Shoragan, I don't remember seeing balrogg. Aug 05 14:39:32 Shoragan - I think, he's on vacation for some time. Aug 05 14:41:19 hmm Aug 05 14:43:36 Hmm, there must be some software mitigating factors to #482. My Bv3 survives a day in off. But I never switch on the modem. ;o) Aug 05 14:59:24 Hmm. JOSM - the OSM editor works quite OK on the screen. Aug 05 14:59:28 does somebody know, when ph5 is back? Aug 05 14:59:33 The 'livegps' plugin works well too. Aug 05 14:59:41 On the downside. Aug 05 14:59:55 SpeedEvil: josm on this small screen? Aug 05 15:00:00 SpeedEvil: is it useable? Aug 05 15:00:01 It does mean I've got to keep the neo connected to my laptop. Aug 05 15:00:42 we really need to get java working on the thing Aug 05 15:01:07 It need the 'convert short drag to click' plugin Aug 05 15:01:14 but seems to pretty much work. Aug 05 15:01:16 However. Aug 05 15:01:33 It's pretty much solely usable as a moving map showing OSM data. Aug 05 15:01:47 To see where you're about to fall off the map. Aug 05 15:02:47 You can do the normal editing - but you wouldn't want to do much. Aug 05 15:03:43 * BasiC wants openmoko Aug 05 15:04:05 BasiC: everybody here does Aug 05 15:04:15 except the lucky ones that have it already\ Aug 05 15:04:27 * BasiC only wants the mass market version :> Aug 05 15:04:42 * BasiC read that the dev version isnt ready for use Aug 05 15:04:56 of course it isn't Aug 05 15:05:01 * BasiC does not believe that mass market version will come out october Aug 05 15:05:02 that's the fun bit about it Aug 05 15:05:15 * SpeedEvil has slight doubts about that. Aug 05 15:05:24 why? Aug 05 15:05:26 BasiC: I'm pretty sure you don't have to prepend /me to all your sentences Aug 05 15:05:36 * BasiC thinks he has to :P Aug 05 15:05:44 if everything goes to plan the hardware might just make it in time Aug 05 15:05:48 the software...no Aug 05 15:06:08 The software might - if they start paying 100-several00 people. Aug 05 15:06:31 yeah i think many ppl will buy it Aug 05 15:06:41 SpeedEvil: no, I don't think that will really help Aug 05 15:07:18 Kliment_: I mean - basically - a large fraction of the people coding on it could do more if paid fulltime. Aug 05 15:07:37 * BasiC belongs to that group Aug 05 15:08:13 SpeedEvil: you are probably right about that Aug 05 15:08:25 SpeedEvil: but paying several hundred people would be a huge mess Aug 05 15:08:42 how many ppl owning the p1? Aug 05 15:08:49 100?200? Aug 05 15:08:56 Kliment_: indeed. Aug 05 15:08:58 SpeedEvil: and most of those people have full time jobs anyway Aug 05 15:09:10 Yeah :( Aug 05 15:09:14 And the .uni. Aug 05 15:09:15 SpeedEvil: it's not like you can just quit your job for a month or two to do this Aug 05 15:09:17 And the second job. Aug 05 15:09:21 And other interests. Aug 05 15:09:24 second job? wtf :P Aug 05 15:09:45 BasiC: 500 have been sent, 500 more getting sent next week Aug 05 15:09:48 I always wanted to have ulcers ;) Aug 05 15:10:04 mmazur: why Aug 05 15:10:43 ;) Aug 05 15:10:52 I mean, I could get away with doing some work on this as part of my job, as I do UI programming on mobile devices for a living Aug 05 15:11:23 but I wouldn't quit my job to work on openmoko, only to have to find another one in two months Aug 05 15:11:28 even if I was paid decently Aug 05 15:13:03 SpeedEvil: getting a couple hundred people to work on this is much easier than hiring a couple hundred people Aug 05 15:13:04 FIC should first and foremost establish their own software dev team(!) Aug 05 15:13:22 Kensan: I'm not convinced that is a good idea Aug 05 15:13:31 Kensan: for things like gpsd maybe Aug 05 15:13:42 Kensan: but not for the UI and userspace stuff Aug 05 15:13:47 Kliment_: Of course they need a software dev team. Aug 05 15:13:59 yes, and they have it Aug 05 15:14:42 Kliment_: and if it's only for the skae of taking off work from the core devs. Judging from LaF0rge's last post it's not really setup. Aug 05 15:14:49 sake Aug 05 15:15:10 * BryceLeo wonders what i missed Aug 05 15:15:34 Kliment_: damn this many ppl are developing it? Aug 05 15:15:43 what're we setting up? Aug 05 15:19:02 BryceLeo: sorry about that. Here you go: http://pastebin.ca/646420 Aug 05 15:21:01 how can i start qemu-neo :> Aug 05 15:21:05 never worked with qemu Aug 05 15:22:17 ahh ok thanks Kensan i thought we were organizing something Aug 05 15:22:48 BasiC: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile Aug 05 15:22:57 BasiC: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Aug 05 15:24:02 hmmm go with kensans the one i posted is a bit more developer oriented Aug 05 15:24:11 yeah i read that Aug 05 15:24:33 but Aug 05 15:24:44 ive already compiled it but i dont know to start it Aug 05 15:24:55 * BryceLeo now realizes how long it takes to build every package in OE..... Aug 05 15:25:22 g2g .. Aug 05 15:26:22 BasiC: did you read that: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile#QEMU ? Aug 05 15:26:34 Kensan: he already bounced Aug 05 15:28:35 Seriously though, it's ALL in the wiki. Otherwise we must blamed it on SpeedEvil not putting it there ;) Aug 05 15:29:28 The edit history lies somewhat. A lot of the reasons I'm last editor on many pages is the wikivandals and reversion. Aug 05 15:32:51 lol i hate it when people refuse to read the wiki Aug 05 15:36:10 anyone with a vanilla OM build or minimal extra packages wanna run "ls -l | wc -l" on thier $omdir/build/tmp/deploy/ipk/armv4t Aug 05 15:37:57 BryceLeo: daxxar@unsane:~/openmoko$ ls -l build/tmp/deploy/ipk/armv4t|wc -l Aug 05 15:37:57 3521 Aug 05 15:38:14 holy poop..... Aug 05 15:38:24 That's AFAIK 100% vanilla Aug 05 15:38:32 wow... didn't realize i build that many.... i'm at 4079 Aug 05 15:38:39 i wrote a script to compile allllllll of oe Aug 05 15:38:44 :-) Aug 05 15:38:45 Can anybody point me to a document or website with "in-depth" info about GSM-Data connections (CSD & HSCSD)? Aug 05 15:38:53 so this is even with some failing Aug 05 15:39:11 * BryceLeo pings SpeedEvil Aug 05 15:39:39 ? Aug 05 15:39:52 sounds like something you'd know about :-D Aug 05 15:40:19 I haven't got a build environment setup Aug 05 15:41:35 SpeedEvil: about the indepth info on the gsm-data connections Aug 05 15:42:17 Ah. Aug 05 15:42:26 Dunno. Aug 05 15:42:35 I just use the stuff. Aug 05 15:42:41 I've not gone into GSM much. Aug 05 15:43:05 ahh, well sorry to bother SpeedEvil Aug 05 15:43:41 Kensan: All of the approved ETSI standards for GSM and UMTS can be found (for free) at www.etsi.org Aug 05 15:44:02 All of the draft standards and in process work for each year can be found at www.3gpp.org Aug 05 15:44:06 zecke: Just curious... how do you get your SVN commit messages formatted so neatly? Aug 05 15:44:58 Writchie: I know, but there's hundreds of docs there, I thought somebody could provide me with a shortcut ;) Aug 05 15:45:10 what is you want to know Aug 05 15:45:33 LC_ALL=C REAL_NAME="bla" EMAIL_ADDRESS="foo@bar.de" ./scripts/prepare-ChangeLog from within the openmoko-feedreader2 directory Aug 05 15:46:13 zecke: Danke =) Aug 05 15:47:18 Writchie: basically the differences about GRPS vs. CSD plus what features CSD provides. Aug 05 15:47:36 GPRS. damnit, it's my typo day. Aug 05 15:47:56 you can probably start with GSM and GPRS on wikipedia Aug 05 15:48:30 probably the best way to understand capabilities is to look at the AT commands in GSM 7.07 and its references Aug 05 15:48:36 Writchie: I am interested in the differences in "link" properties. Aug 05 15:48:50 Writchie: ok many thanks. Aug 05 15:49:09 CSD is like a modem point to point connection. Aug 05 15:49:36 GPRS is basically IP packets transported over PPP Aug 05 15:49:50 Writchie: yes I understand, but simply circuit-switched vs. packet-switched is not detailed enough for me... Aug 05 15:50:28 Writchie: I will read up a bit. Maybe I will pester you with questions later :) Aug 05 15:50:42 feel free Aug 05 15:51:05 I'll be traveling though for next 8 hours or so. Aug 05 15:51:06 mickey|sports: are you back yet? Aug 05 15:51:07 LC_ALL=C? boo, whatever happened to using unicode Aug 05 15:51:31 anrp: ?? Aug 05 15:51:47 Writchie: well it's not that urgent/important, but thanks for the offer. Aug 05 15:51:49 does it not work in a non 'C' locale? ~_~ Aug 05 15:52:40 give me an excuse to bring my Neo on holiday; Does the alarmclock work ? Aug 05 15:52:42 csd is old school but can be useful in limited circumstances, you basically bypass the codec and use a voice slot Aug 05 15:52:51 so you get time-guarenteed delivery Aug 05 15:52:55 and make enough noise to wake me up ? :) Aug 05 15:53:24 i haven't gotten my neo to make any noise at all yet, but if you're desperate sleep $(( 8 * 3600)) ; mplayer path/to/loud_file.mp3 works for me Aug 05 15:53:28 Kero: a quick test would be bettre than asking Aug 05 15:54:10 BryceLeo: one technica problem: UPS still has my Neo Aug 05 15:54:27 Wow. Aug 05 15:54:30 no cron or at. Aug 05 15:54:34 Kero: lol well then how do you expect to set the alrarm through the box? Aug 05 15:54:52 it actually works very well for me; i think "I want 8 hours of sleep" and just hit it on the way to bed Aug 05 15:55:16 and yeah its primitive, i know Aug 05 15:55:57 lol anrp i think it's a unique solution Aug 05 15:56:17 Not really. Aug 05 15:56:25 I wrote something trivial like that. Aug 05 15:56:41 Though with the ability to raise the volume at a percent every 10s. Aug 05 15:57:01 'k, I'll have a laptop to do that with. Aug 05 15:57:32 someone should get samuel l jackson to record an mp3 with a long stream of insults telling the listener to get their lazy ass up Aug 05 15:57:37 mhh htc is supposed to build the google phone and it will run linux? strange Aug 05 15:58:07 Locked down though. Aug 05 15:58:15 If it's going to be ad-supported. Aug 05 15:59:30 anrp: creative alarmbells and ringtones rule Aug 05 16:00:17 nod Aug 05 16:01:49 What is the highest RT ticket # charged so far? Aug 05 16:02:59 cesarb: afaik #3531 (from community ml) Aug 05 16:04:01 Sooo near mine :P Aug 05 16:04:16 * cesarb is near the end of the 3500s Aug 05 16:07:08 * ewanm89_laptop is still at ∞ Aug 05 16:07:17 :( Aug 05 16:07:35 ewanm89_laptop: isn't yours more at undefined? Aug 05 16:07:52 Well, um ok, 1/0 Aug 05 16:07:52 if someone wants to toy with a fully functional if unpolished media player / whatever you want remote suitable for the Neo, http://mjr.iki.fi/software/remote-0.9.0.tar.gz Aug 05 16:08:05 (requires python) Aug 05 16:08:35 gah, just my luck, they were processing my order 6 hours ago, but my CC didn't work, I'm starting to hate my CC, it always behave like this when I'm ordering something I _really_ want. (last time they had to submit the information twice inorder for it to process) Aug 05 16:08:38 (can be run over X11 though, so no python strictly required on the Neo) Aug 05 16:18:00 grr this modchip crackdown is such crap. You own the f*ing hardware if you want to piss on it you can, if you want to smash it you can, if you wanna solder a chip to it YOU CAN Aug 05 16:18:03 * BryceLeo ends rant Aug 05 16:20:49 BryceLeo: that's an assertion, but sadly it doesn't have any basis in law. Aug 05 16:21:26 which is crap though... i mean if you lease the console then sure i could see it.... Aug 05 16:21:34 at least, assuming you live somewhere where the DMCA is in law. Aug 05 16:21:45 hahaha, yes that is a shame, moving is on the todo Aug 05 16:21:49 well, the law needs changing then Aug 05 16:22:09 gah, sorry guys gotta go whip up some breakfast for She who must not be named Aug 05 16:22:19 mjr: did I hear python? Aug 05 16:22:22 re Aug 05 16:22:43 mjr: python and gtk works fine for me on the om Aug 05 16:22:53 and as an update 602 sucessfuly built OE packages that aren't in OM have been built Aug 05 16:23:09 CoreDump|home. BryceLeo: I agree. I suggest contacting your senator is much more productive than ranting on IRC. Aug 05 16:23:29 cjb lol i've actually talked with him a few times Aug 05 16:23:33 :) Aug 05 16:23:37 cjb he's a bit of a prick and doesn't get it Aug 05 16:24:14 cjb they know me pretty well, i send them faxes alot and they "read them" and i stop in when something really bothers me Aug 05 16:24:32 anywhoo off to make food Aug 05 16:30:44 noon how did you compile python-gtk? - is there a bitbake repository? Aug 05 16:34:29 kristian-m: it was on Elrond neo. so you have to ask him. Aug 05 16:34:35 noon ah, found it. Aug 05 16:34:42 <-- doesn't own a neo Aug 05 16:35:02 noon it was just a strange naming convention python-pygtk2 Aug 05 16:35:20 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Current_events]] [[Main_Page]] [[Main_Page/ru]] [[P1_Owners]] Aug 05 16:35:32 the nice thing is, you can develop your application on the desktop with the OM theme and if it work, you can copy it on the device Aug 05 16:35:52 (and with vim you can edit it directly on the device :-) Aug 05 16:38:00 later Aug 05 16:49:36 SpeedEvil - BTW: If you want a decoding of your "strace"s, let me know. Aug 05 16:58:35 If anyone is interested, I made a simple panel-applet to switch alsa profiles, great if your listening to MP3 over the speaker and suddenly want to take a call with the handset ;) Aug 05 16:58:58 It could need some more testing (no problems for me) Aug 05 16:59:11 It can be found at http://84.27.74.7/files/ Aug 05 17:01:04 Elrond: I've not been having much luck. Aug 05 17:01:30 SpeedEvil - huh? Aug 05 17:02:21 Elrond: been trying decoding myself. Aug 05 17:05:39 SpeedEvil - with sphyrna or speedevil's-own-cool-tools? ;-)) Aug 05 17:05:52 Myself. Aug 05 17:06:14 I was trying to come at it clean - to see if you've been missing something. Aug 05 17:07:49 Ahh. :) Aug 05 17:08:13 What're you trying to decode? Aug 05 17:08:17 GPS Aug 05 17:08:21 Ah. :-) Aug 05 17:08:32 Some big bad mystical secret you're trying to decipher? Aug 05 17:08:38 REing gllin? Aug 05 17:09:05 tHe_IkkE I'll try it - thanks :-) Aug 05 17:12:51 hey, is there a "make clean" that just clean the builded files ? Aug 05 17:22:13 Strange... having trouble with MokoMakeFile and flash-qemu-local... Aug 05 17:22:33 It keeps flashing rootfs from 20070802, not anything newer Aug 05 17:27:06 what are the steps to be followed before libgsmd-tool should work? i get cannot open gsm error message; but manually using gsm with cu works though Aug 05 17:27:24 freelock: did you make openmoko-devel-image? Aug 05 17:27:28 freelock: Maybe because the buildhost is down since then Aug 05 17:27:39 ? Aug 05 17:27:52 Aria: i Aug 05 17:28:01 Yes, I've made it several times, and while I can flash it to the neo, I can't get it running in qemu Aug 05 17:28:03 Wrong window, oops. Aug 05 17:28:05 aria i'm doing a full OE bulid now, we'll be intouch Aug 05 17:28:07 lol Aug 05 17:28:12 BryceLeo: Okey Aug 05 17:28:47 freelock: that's odd.... possibly a bug with an updated makefilE? Aug 05 17:29:06 Possibly. I've updated the makefile... Aug 05 17:29:21 i'm diffing from mine right now Aug 05 17:29:28 I was trying to flash the OM2007.2 image a few days back... must've screwed something up Aug 05 17:29:41 try a make update-makefile Aug 05 17:29:46 that'll bring you back to a fanilla Aug 05 17:30:19 freelock: flash-neo-local works for you? Aug 05 17:30:33 I haven't used that. Aug 05 17:30:59 I've just been running ./dfu-util in build/tmp/images, directly on the build I want... Aug 05 17:31:03 do you have any special packages built in that require you to re-build task-base? Aug 05 17:31:10 No, not yet Aug 05 17:31:31 ok then try "make qemu-local" and tell me what you get Aug 05 17:31:52 if you get no target backup your current makefile if you want any changes you've made then make update-makefile Aug 05 17:32:29 Looks like it's building openmoko-devel-image Aug 05 17:32:34 (again) Aug 05 17:32:40 stick with it for me Aug 05 17:32:48 Hi BryceLeo :) Aug 05 17:32:50 I did remove the rootfs images it was trying to flash... Aug 05 17:33:10 leppoc: hey there Aug 05 17:33:27 freelock: good, so it should at the very least fail at flashing Aug 05 17:33:36 BryceLeo: you remember that you told me "you will learn a lot while compiling everything" ? Aug 05 17:33:38 and if it doesn't we've got another conundrum Aug 05 17:33:50 leppoc: lol yeah, why do you ask? Aug 05 17:34:15 It did fail the first time... I ran make setup again, and since then it builds openmoko-devel-image first, and then flash-qemu. Aug 05 17:34:29 basically, I have learn that I MUST replace fic-gta01 by x86 BEFORE compiling everything :S Aug 05 17:34:46 I have lost 1 day compiling the wrong thing :( LOL Aug 05 17:34:55 L/ Aug 05 17:34:57 :/ Aug 05 17:35:24 is there a way to clean all those wrong binaries before recompiling ? Aug 05 17:35:31 (except rm -rf....) Aug 05 17:36:16 leppoc: why do you need to do that?? in your local.conf? Aug 05 17:36:17 (applying patches should not be re-required for instance....) Aug 05 17:36:21 yes Aug 05 17:36:43 I think that I have cros-compiled for the Neo, not for X86 Aug 05 17:36:52 you changed machine=? Aug 05 17:37:31 freelock: that's really weird.... Aug 05 17:37:36 BryceLeo: Okay, build finished, qemu started, and hung at the same place it's been hanging... Aug 05 17:37:48 I didn't before (now it's ok, but I have compiled everything with the wrong value) Aug 05 17:37:56 Yeah, it used to work, but not the last few days... Aug 05 17:37:58 freelock: weird.... i dunno why it's failing then... Aug 05 17:38:05 freelock: sorry dude Aug 05 17:38:07 Maybe I'll start over... :-( Aug 05 17:38:18 freelock: just wait til lthe announce of 2007.2 Aug 05 17:38:28 freelock: it'll be a bit of a departure from where we arenow Aug 05 17:38:39 Not waiting is probably what got me into this pickle... Aug 05 17:38:45 when can we expect it ? Aug 05 17:39:01 leppoc: your machine var should read "machine=fic-gta01" Aug 05 17:39:34 well, I want to compile for my laptop, I don't have the fic neo. so are you sure ? Aug 05 17:39:40 leppoc: if you're using the make file and running in qemu emulating arm. If you're using xoo and xephyr then you switch machine to x86 Aug 05 17:39:50 ok Aug 05 17:39:54 I see :) Aug 05 17:40:05 leppoc: yes the qemu that gets setup by the mokomakefile emulates arm Aug 05 17:40:39 freelock: it'll get done soon enough.... though it never really is soon enough Aug 05 17:41:17 ok. but anyway, I have changed the value, and tried to recompile, untill my hardrive was full :-S Aug 05 17:41:32 whoops Aug 05 17:41:32 (I wanted to use xoo....) Aug 05 17:41:34 :D Aug 05 17:41:37 tHe_IkkE: Trying your .ipk... got it installed, rebooted, but not seeing anything. ? Aug 05 17:41:53 is qemu faster or slower than the real phone ? Aug 05 17:42:06 leppoc: depends on your machine Aug 05 17:42:10 leppoc, faster Aug 05 17:42:12 usually slower. Aug 05 17:42:17 xD Aug 05 17:42:22 LOL Aug 05 17:42:29 so much answers, so little useful information =) Aug 05 17:42:37 :))))) Aug 05 17:42:40 Anyone have a qemu image ATM? Aug 05 17:43:01 SpeedEvil: sadlly no.... Aug 05 17:43:04 so the BryceLeo answer seems to be the good one ;) Aug 05 17:43:06 SpeedEvil, yes, i haven't updated it for more than a week Aug 05 17:43:51 SpeedEvil: I have a runing qemu. but il looks like some pixmaps are missing... Aug 05 17:44:11 (I didn't compile anything for that...) Aug 05 17:44:52 leppoc: time dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/zero bs=1024 count=10000 Aug 05 17:45:15 noon, yeah I have python on my OM working, just noted that don't necessarily need it there to run said software Aug 05 17:47:42 SpeedEvil: real 0.589s Aug 05 17:47:48 user : 0.000s Aug 05 17:47:57 sys 0.592s Aug 05 17:48:24 On urandom? Aug 05 17:48:48 well, I ran you command there, so yes... Aug 05 17:48:50 real 0m 36.10s Aug 05 17:48:55 (on neo) Aug 05 17:49:02 oh :D Aug 05 17:49:09 damn :D sory Aug 05 17:49:11 I thought it was slower. Aug 05 17:49:36 wait, this is on the computer, not under qemu (so stupid...) Aug 05 17:50:27 it's hard to type commands on qemu ;S Aug 05 17:50:35 Yes - 'normal' computers would be really faster. Aug 05 17:50:45 yes of course :) Aug 05 17:50:52 tHe_IkkE: Nevermind... added it to the list of applets in /etc/matchbox/session. Very nice! Aug 05 17:50:59 leppoc, ssh to qemu? Aug 05 17:51:28 hmm, would be nice. how can I do that ? Aug 05 17:52:29 As a comparison - My PII/300 does it in 20s Aug 05 17:53:55 freelock: Sorry, wasn't paying attention (eating) I'm glad it works for you! Aug 05 17:54:36 freelock: The only thing missing is the mute.state file... i just copied the stereoout.state file and set the PCM controls to 0.... Aug 05 17:54:50 freelock, how do I restart the panel? Aug 05 17:54:56 1.27s Aug 05 17:54:57 Ah, was just going to ask what state that mode used... Aug 05 17:55:11 leppoc: CPU? Aug 05 17:55:15 freelock: bummer, too late... Aug 05 17:55:39 what ? this is under qemu. I have a centrino duo Aug 05 17:55:47 I mean the host CPU Aug 05 17:55:55 sagacis: I actually edited /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm ... Aug 05 17:56:03 removed the "-e x" from the ps line Aug 05 17:56:06 I did too.... Aug 05 17:56:17 Maybe a nice patch would be in place..... Aug 05 17:56:20 then used /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm stop/ start Aug 05 17:56:42 (I don't even know the speed lol, this is my company computer. wait a second :) ) Aug 05 17:57:22 heh Aug 05 17:57:29 my time dd is still running Aug 05 17:57:30 What stopped me from committing a patch is that i don't know if the same scripts are used with non-busybox ps versions... Aug 05 17:57:42 centrino duo 2.16Mhz Aug 05 17:58:17 freelock, Thanks Aug 05 17:58:28 Much easier that using init Aug 05 17:58:52 Vegar: on what? Aug 05 17:58:56 on qemu Aug 05 17:59:08 Vegar: on what host CPU? Aug 05 17:59:15 Athlon XP 3000+ Aug 05 17:59:33 oh, wait Aug 05 17:59:35 I forgot count Aug 05 17:59:37 tHe_lkke, Nice panel app! Aug 05 17:59:38 no wonder Aug 05 17:59:44 :) Aug 05 17:59:51 sagacis: Thnx! Aug 05 18:00:26 argh Aug 05 18:00:32 I was showing my neo off to a friend (with no PC around) and had to fiddle with the stylus and the terminal to set the correct state and make a phone-call. Aug 05 18:00:44 SpeedEvil: so you think that qemu is way faster than the real phone. but it is already so slow !! Aug 05 18:00:51 I'm too lazy for that kinda crap so I wrote an applet.... Aug 05 18:01:02 how do I rotate the display? Aug 05 18:01:07 xrandr -o 12 Aug 05 18:01:09 -2 Aug 05 18:01:19 is buildhost.openmoko.org down? Aug 05 18:01:23 tHe_IkkE okay, the audio-panel-applets are in place and working - somehow my mplayer is blocking X though Aug 05 18:01:25 leppoc: as another test - what percentage of CPU does madplay use? Aug 05 18:01:29 It should be around 20& Aug 05 18:01:31 i can't resolve it's ip Aug 05 18:01:32 It should be around 20% Aug 05 18:01:40 the earlier test may be unrepresentative. Aug 05 18:01:54 leppoc: In my experience qemu is alot slower... (I tested with the precompiled windoze-qemu version running on XP through VMWare on a dual Xeon 3.0) Aug 05 18:02:02 thanks thomasg Aug 05 18:02:54 ah, there we go Aug 05 18:03:04 ok. My laptop CPU is used at 0.5% right now... Aug 05 18:03:15 real: 0m 44.56s Aug 05 18:03:19 kristian-: Please explain... Aug 05 18:03:45 leppoc: I'm seeing 18.0 to 19.8% for madplay CPU usage right now... Aug 05 18:03:49 has anyone used libgsmd-tool successfully? Aug 05 18:03:54 ah .. no it resolves but it doesn't answer http requests and pings :( ... is it supposed to be down? (buildhost.openmoko.org) Aug 05 18:04:12 mbuf: yes Aug 05 18:04:15 mbuf: Yups, me and quite a few others.... Aug 05 18:04:26 freelock: on you computer right ? not under qemu Aug 05 18:04:40 tHe_IkkE whenever i start mplayer - using ssh x is ignoring touchpad-input Aug 05 18:04:49 No, on the neo Aug 05 18:05:10 freelock, tHe_IkkE what steps did you have to follow before running it? i get cannot connect to gsm error message; but manually using gsm works with cu Aug 05 18:05:19 mplayer - not gmplayer - doesn't do anything with clicks on the video window. Aug 05 18:05:37 tHe_IkkE i'll just revert /etc/matchbox/session before i get into this Aug 05 18:05:40 freelock: looks like madplay is not even runing... Aug 05 18:06:02 SpeedEvil thats what i think... Aug 05 18:06:02 mbuf: I usually have to restart gsmd but after that it works as described in the wiki... Aug 05 18:06:09 leppoc: I have put some music on the card... so that was playing one of them in one shell, top in another Aug 05 18:06:31 tHe_IkkE, how do you restart gsmd? Aug 05 18:06:41 kristian-m: What did you change? Aug 05 18:06:46 mbuf: seems like gsmd has gotten less stable in recent builds, it used to work first time, but now I have to restart gsmd, too... Aug 05 18:06:49 mbuf: /etc/init.d/gsmd start Aug 05 18:06:54 don't have a sim in, at the moment Aug 05 18:07:08 freelock, tHe_IkkE ok, let me try, brb Aug 05 18:08:33 tHe_IkkE i added your applet there, in start and in stop... - hmm Aug 05 18:09:28 freelock: ah ok. anyway. I am a newbie, I have to read more before :) (I don't know how to do that...) Aug 05 18:09:38 i quess it's a bad idea to start X in the background at the same terminal where i start mplayer.. Aug 05 18:10:07 kristian-m: You need to add the applet to the list --end-applets=..... Aug 05 18:10:52 tHe_IkkE okay, thats where i have it now - whyever it is in _this_ list Aug 05 18:11:18 kristien-m: What dou you mean? Aug 05 18:13:57 tHe_IkkE I want it to start with the panel - so i guessed it would belong into the start-list... anyway it's working now - and I got one applet :-) Aug 05 18:14:20 kristian-m: nice :) Aug 05 18:15:45 tHe_IkkE okay so handset and headset are not enabling sound - but speaker works - enables the speaker and headset - i dont have bluetoot though - but all in all nice new feature :-) Aug 05 18:17:06 kristian-m: The default handset and headset profiles route the GSM audio to the *set. NOT the "hifi" audio! Aug 05 18:17:54 tHe_IkkE ah, okay that explains it. great :-) Aug 05 18:18:18 All the applet does is set the state defined in the various .state files... You can mess them up as much as you like ;) Aug 05 18:26:12 (stepped away for a bit) leppoc: madplay just plays media files. This is easiest from an ssh shell: Aug 05 18:26:39 scp mediafile.ogg root@192.168.0.202:/media/card/ Aug 05 18:27:03 You run that on your computer, to copy a file to the neo. Aug 05 18:27:10 Then, ssh to the neo, and run: Aug 05 18:27:23 madplay /media/card/mediafile.ogg Aug 05 18:27:38 ok, let's go :) Aug 05 18:27:49 ... and you should hear it coming out the speakers, if you've loaded one of the alsa state files Aug 05 18:28:29 the stereoout.state file is from matchbox on startup.. Aug 05 18:30:00 hmm, madplay also plays oggs? Cool. I'd noticed that ogg123 is on the flash, but didn't notice that. Aug 05 18:30:23 handier if it does both Aug 05 18:31:21 hmm How can I know/setup the IP address ? I have a "No root to host" Aug 05 18:32:59 route Aug 05 18:33:14 leppoc: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#By_using_Ethernet_emulation_over_a_USB_cable Aug 05 18:33:52 I don't know if that works on qemu though. Aug 05 18:34:17 Oh, is this qemu? I haven't figured out how to connect to that... Aug 05 18:34:24 yes qemu :) Aug 05 18:34:39 Sorry... don't have an answer there... Aug 05 18:34:59 I have no usb device for qemu when I lsusb Aug 05 18:35:01 no problem Aug 05 18:35:20 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Tetraden]] [[P1_Owners]] [[Other_OSes]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] Aug 05 18:36:53 mh Aug 05 18:37:11 Elrond: did you get an answer to your gps-connector question? Aug 05 18:37:18 should'nt i be able to turn to landscape mode with "xrandr -o 1"? Aug 05 18:37:43 root@fic-gta01:~$ xrandr -o 1 Aug 05 18:37:43 Can't open display Aug 05 18:37:44 borg: I can Aug 05 18:37:57 export DISPLAY=:0 Aug 05 18:38:09 ouch Aug 05 18:38:10 yes Aug 05 18:38:13 thx :) Aug 05 18:39:09 SpeedEvil: I saw you last edited http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OSvS Do you know the status of that project or any other info? Aug 05 18:39:39 * aloril2 's Neo1973 has dark dead pixel, but can't see it with my eyes (only with camera by taking macro photo) ;-) Aug 05 18:39:57 Kensan: what's the page about? Aug 05 18:41:11 Kensan: no Aug 05 18:41:58 SpeedEvil: k, thanks. Aug 05 18:42:23 AIUI - over GPRS, it will work - with a delay, or push-talk mode. Aug 05 18:42:25 I think OSvS is impossible in full duplex Aug 05 18:42:43 The datarate is fine, but the delay is nasty. Aug 05 18:42:53 mjr: Just tried an ogg, and it's not decoding correctly, so maybe not... Aug 05 18:42:59 In GSM data-call mode, it is probably possible. Aug 05 18:43:01 mp3s work fine... Aug 05 18:43:14 freelock, right. Well, ogg123 then. Aug 05 18:43:31 SpeedEvil: ah, misread it, I thought it was a recoccurance of the analogue encryption Aug 05 18:43:32 Yup, that works fine... Aug 05 18:44:25 seems that ogg123 uses a lot of cpu though, maybe uses floating point, which is fixable Aug 05 18:45:09 Yes, I'm seeing right around 40% Aug 05 18:45:18 XorA|gone: what do you mean by "analogue encryption"? crypto-over-gsm-voice? Aug 05 18:45:19 mjr: isn't there a ogg decoder with fixed math? Aug 05 18:45:31 noon, yes, that's why it's fixable if indeed it's that Aug 05 18:45:35 Kensan: exactly Aug 05 18:46:04 mjr: You could try to compile ogg123 with softfloat. That should speed things up a bit at least (bigger binary....) Aug 05 18:46:11 mjr: do you know if it work, or are they still working on it? Aug 05 18:47:13 XorA|gone: I found some interesting papers about that but in essence the data-rate is too low. Aug 05 18:47:15 tHe_IkkE, I kinda assume it's softfloat already, but again, don't know, haven't checked. Still better do fixed point, if indeed it doesn't already Aug 05 18:47:36 mjr: true... Aug 05 18:47:44 Kensan: it falls into the 'just possible' realm - 1300bits/sec. Aug 05 18:47:59 noon, afaik it works Aug 05 18:48:27 Kensan: when you chop things up in the analogue domain you dont have to convert them to a digital stream Aug 05 18:49:18 http://xiph.org/vorbis/ for Tremor. But again, I haven't checked if OM doesn't use it already, just talking out of my ass. Aug 05 18:51:14 mjr: tremor is in OE Aug 05 18:51:23 ack Aug 05 18:51:37 it's a hog, then :] Aug 05 18:52:46 Does anyone know if there is a way to tell a "tap" from a "tap-and-hold" using the stylus? Aug 05 18:52:57 I can't find anything on the wiki Aug 05 18:53:34 yes Aug 05 18:53:38 basically. Aug 05 18:53:48 tap = 'mouse button click' Aug 05 18:53:56 tap and hold = mouse button hold Aug 05 18:54:03 It works just like a mouse Aug 05 18:54:10 except it doesn't move between clicks when up Aug 05 18:54:49 SpeedEvil: hmmm... could have guessed... The problem is to tell the difference... Aug 05 18:55:19 SpeedEvil: a "right-click" would be easier.... Aug 05 18:56:17 what do you mean how to tell the difference? Aug 05 18:56:28 you tell the difference just like you do with a mouse. Aug 05 18:57:16 I'd like to show a "slider" when someone clicks on the profile applet (to change volume) and a menu on clik-and-hold to change profiles... Aug 05 18:57:52 The problem is that when i click-and-hold I just get the "click" not the "hold" ..... Aug 05 18:58:02 If the user does not lift the pen, then it's a hold Aug 05 18:58:18 !apt Aug 05 18:58:23 Yes but I receive a "clicked" event before the stylus is released... Aug 05 18:58:40 That's not a clicked event. Aug 05 18:58:44 It's a 'pen down' event. Aug 05 18:59:00 you have to listen for the presence or absence of a 'pen up' event Aug 05 18:59:43 noon - No, that I remember. Aug 05 19:00:43 Is there somewhere a list of "events" you can subscribe to when using g_signal_connect ? Aug 05 19:00:50 Elrond: so it must be a special fic-neo gps-connector ;-) Aug 05 19:01:09 I've seen it before. Aug 05 19:01:19 I'm pretty sure it's not custom Aug 05 19:02:06 !logs Aug 05 19:02:07 Channel logs for #openmoko are archived at: Aug 05 19:02:08 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/%23openmoko Aug 05 19:02:09 Live-logs are available at Aug 05 19:02:10 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/livelogs/%23openmoko.livelog Aug 05 19:02:12 See ?? help-logs for usage instructions Aug 05 19:03:11 so hows openmoko-dev going? Aug 05 19:03:25 Well, it exists Aug 05 19:03:46 With 7 of us in there. Aug 05 19:04:26 SpeedEvil: Ahhh, I found it! Aug 05 19:04:32 :) Aug 05 19:07:57 SpeedEvil: Really should not smoke a joint when programming, but hey it's weekend! Aug 05 19:08:52 tHe_IkkE http://mput.de/~kristian/.openmoko/ <- 2 new states for heaphones-only and speakers-only Aug 05 19:11:48 kristian-m: Thnx! You need to change the NUM_PROFILES too if you want to add states.... Aug 05 19:12:59 tHe_IkkE ahkay - got a full harddrive-problem right now - will try later - building a openmoko-panel-profiles.bb file too Aug 05 19:13:27 I have a bb ready if you want... Aug 05 19:13:52 I added the bitbake in the same way as the other panel-applets. Aug 05 19:14:18 Then tricked bitbake with a fake tgz containing my files claiming it to be from svn :) Aug 05 19:14:45 tHe_IkkE ah, yes i dont know if mine is working yet - still compiling some updated packages Aug 05 19:15:01 kristian-m: nice work huh ;) Aug 05 19:15:13 Compiling is such fun. Aug 05 19:15:22 well, yes. ;-) Aug 05 19:44:20 whats the reason for the openmoko rootfs-images for having 31 MB every time? Aug 05 19:50:37 thomasg from how i understand it, it depends on how it is created - when using dd you'll get the size provided - when using mkfs.jffs2 -d you'll get one that is the size of the data Aug 05 19:58:22 thx. I just wonder what the "real" data size would be Aug 05 19:58:45 Does anyone know how to set the timezone on a neo? Aug 05 20:00:18 Taco: there is an /etc file with the details in, can't remember it offhand but just booting my Neo so will take a look Aug 05 20:00:42 jgm: Thanks! Aug 05 20:00:47 thomasg i think 31 MB is the real size Aug 05 20:01:52 well, I have a buidhost image here that has 31 mb. and I have a image from alphaone with about 20 games and 2007.2 and it has exactly 31 mb, too :) Aug 05 20:01:56 Taco: It's /etc/profile, change 'TZ="UTC"' to whatever your timezone is Aug 05 20:02:31 /etc/timezone Aug 05 20:02:40 jgm: Thanks, again. Aug 05 20:03:00 copy from /usr/share/zoneinfo/wherever to /etc/localtime Aug 05 20:08:42 thomasg: Yeah, but that's built with angstrom Aug 05 20:09:46 thomasg: It's just coincidence. :-) I have images here that are 27MB big Aug 05 20:10:43 will 2007.2 contain a standard scrollbar or just that iphone-like scrolling? Aug 05 20:11:20 thomasg - 2007.2 is based on stock gtk. So all the standard gtk widgets are available. Aug 05 20:11:38 Elrond, I meant for the gui itself Aug 05 20:11:55 You mean, if it's configurable? Aug 05 20:11:56 e.g. the applications menu and so on Aug 05 20:12:08 however :) Aug 05 20:12:24 I don't know. Aug 05 20:12:40 personally I don't like that kind of scrolling, a scrollbar makes more sense for me Aug 05 20:12:56 and at moment there is no scrollbar for the OM UI Aug 05 20:13:06 there is no menu in the panel any more Aug 05 20:13:19 you can get to the menu bei clicking a button on the buttom Aug 05 20:13:33 I know, but the menu doesn't matter for me now :) Aug 05 20:13:35 und this menu has this iphone-like scrolling Aug 05 20:13:42 the rest is the same Aug 05 20:13:48 yes, that's the problem Aug 05 20:13:51 at least in the alphaone image Aug 05 20:14:00 but thats pretty old tho Aug 05 20:14:50 i think the iphone like scrolling ist ok for looking at webpages for example Aug 05 20:14:59 but i dont like the new menu too Aug 05 20:15:02 :\ Aug 05 20:15:34 the problem is that a scrollbar eats screen realestate Aug 05 20:15:49 the old menu didnt need a scrollbar Aug 05 20:15:51 ;) Aug 05 20:16:27 iphone like scrolling means that you lose valuable glyphspace though... Aug 05 20:17:32 SpeedEvil - How do you mean that? Aug 05 20:17:52 I like the smooth scrolling, but not in menus as the contact menu and so on. imho thats slow and costs much time Aug 05 20:18:02 As I understand it, you scroll by moving your finger over the main display window? Aug 05 20:18:14 either up-down, or left-right Aug 05 20:18:29 SpeedEvil - Over the content itself, yes. Aug 05 20:18:34 These are four of the basic possible glyphs. Aug 05 20:18:37 s/content/to-be-scrolled content Aug 05 20:18:54 of a stroke recogniser. Aug 05 20:18:58 Ahh, you mean gestures by "glyphs"? Aug 05 20:19:06 Ahh, yeah. Aug 05 20:19:31 Well, the iphone scrolling is a thing, that the app has to "enable". Aug 05 20:20:01 A 'virtual scrollbar' would work well. Aug 05 20:20:01 So I wonder, if stroke recognition makes sens in the main menu. ;-) Aug 05 20:20:20 D - dialer Aug 05 20:20:26 ... Aug 05 20:20:30 Ahh. Aug 05 20:20:44 So you can do stuff without looking at the screen Aug 05 20:21:29 Hmm, yeah. Aug 05 20:21:37 file a bug. ;-) Aug 05 20:24:00 btw. is the handwriting recognition in om2007 xstroke? Aug 05 20:30:08 is openmoko.com down? Aug 05 20:30:18 looks like it Aug 05 20:30:32 yes Aug 05 20:30:36 maybe they are updating some 2007.2 stuff? Aug 05 20:30:47 now buildhost and openmoko.com is down Aug 05 20:31:41 crap Aug 05 20:31:51 anyone got some nice pictures of a device? Aug 05 20:36:00 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_North_Texas]] [[Screen_Shots]] [[User_talk:Secureoffice]] Aug 05 20:36:04 Vegar, openmoko.org is still going just very slow Aug 05 20:36:38 Psi_: yes, but I'm unable to find pics there Aug 05 20:36:52 what sort of pics do you want? Aug 05 20:37:03 pop over to flickr, and seearch on neo1973 Aug 05 20:37:24 oh, yeah, good idea Aug 05 20:37:36 I want some pics that makes it look all cool and stylish Aug 05 20:37:38 in the wiki it says that the music player is not implemented, has anyone started to implement it? Aug 05 20:38:01 SpeedEvil: the kind of pics that can be used to convince a friend Aug 05 20:38:12 The not-implemented tags are basically a guess. Aug 05 20:38:29 madplay works, if you just want to hear it play something Aug 05 20:38:35 they were best-guess based on the page contents, and my assumptions. Aug 05 20:38:51 madplay!=media player though. Aug 05 20:38:59 yep Aug 05 20:39:01 Anymore than telnet is an IRC client. Aug 05 20:39:12 but its good to just get some mp3 playing :) Aug 05 20:39:17 henla464_ - Ask abraxa_ Aug 05 20:39:24 Psi_: yep i know, have written a tiny script that uses madplay to play the content of the memory card Aug 05 20:39:25 http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/f/f2/Neo1973_uboot_splash.jpg/399px-Neo1973_uboot_splash.jpg - what's that nomad logo? Aug 05 20:39:50 I have done irc over telnet over GPRS, using the virtual keyboard. Aug 05 20:39:55 Painfull :) Aug 05 20:40:01 lol Aug 05 20:40:10 haha Aug 05 20:40:14 [X] SpeedEvil is mad. ;o) Aug 05 20:40:36 especially because you cant use backspace :) Aug 05 20:40:52 Simply using the phone as a modem is actually much easier. Aug 05 20:40:58 Well - GPRS router. Aug 05 20:41:17 borg_, somethings it works even though it doesnt look like it has Aug 05 20:41:21 Or if I had a BT keyboard. Aug 05 20:41:30 *asnt Aug 05 20:41:45 Psi_: oh, i have to test that :) Aug 05 20:42:13 i notice it alot when using tab complete Aug 05 20:42:27 the tab corrects it Aug 05 20:42:36 well.. corrects whats on the screen Aug 05 20:42:50 yes Aug 05 20:42:54 you are right :) Aug 05 20:45:13 henla464_: Yeah, the music player and media player are being merged - I'll finish the wiki as soon as I find the time Aug 05 20:45:23 I mean... I'll update the wiki Aug 05 20:46:11 abraxa_: great, what stage are the music/media player in now? Aug 05 20:47:00 henla464_: It needs to be done till the 20th so you can be sure it'll be usable by then :) Aug 05 20:47:48 abraxa_: you have a deadline? why the 20th? Aug 05 20:48:26 That's when the mothership is coming for him? Aug 05 20:49:20 Yes, the mothership has "google" printed all over it Aug 05 20:49:28 :P Aug 05 20:49:35 Not. Evil. (aliens). Aug 05 20:49:54 lol Aug 05 20:50:13 borg_: Sorry, not you guys - gotta try harder next time Aug 05 20:51:17 is there a .bb file for tui? Aug 05 20:51:35 abraxa: google will let just about anyone in nowadays. ;P Aug 05 20:51:58 abraxa_: so where do you come in here? (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/21470089/) ;) Aug 05 20:52:12 * juri_ has her google offer printed out, and taped to her office door. one of these days... Aug 05 20:53:23 Kensan: What do you mean? I wrote the master plan. Aug 05 20:54:12 abraxa_: speaking of which: this is quite fun to watch: http://masterplanthemovie.com/ Aug 05 20:55:09 Man, I am disappointed Aug 05 20:55:29 Nowhere on that blackboard do I see the word "beta" Aug 05 21:04:29 I notice a 'tomtom remote' - is this a bluetooth or IR remote? Aug 05 21:04:40 Because if it's bluetooth - it's cheap and a 'remote'. Aug 05 21:17:28 openmoko: 03zecke * r2640 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Aug 05 21:17:28 openmoko: 2007-08-05 Holger Hans Peter Freyther Aug 05 21:17:28 openmoko: Implement filtering of feeds again. Switch the position Aug 05 21:17:28 openmoko: of Prev/Next and use the right stock items in feed_item_view_init. Aug 05 21:17:28 openmoko: * src/feed-data.c: Aug 05 21:17:32 openmoko: (feed_filter_filter_category): Implement Aug 05 21:17:34 openmoko: (feed_filter_filter_text): Implement (similiar to _category) Aug 05 21:22:00 all .po files are already translated into Swedish >_< Aug 05 21:25:14 What is the name of the type of USB connector on the neo? Aug 05 21:27:27 SpeedEvil: mini-b Aug 05 21:28:07 if I remember correctly Aug 05 21:40:39 openmoko: 03zecke * r2641 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (ChangeLog src/feed-data.c src/feed-selection-view.c): (log message trimmed) Aug 05 21:40:39 openmoko: 2007-08-05 Holger Hans Peter Freyther Aug 05 21:40:39 openmoko: Implement category filtering (and made sure it compiles). Feature wise Aug 05 21:40:39 openmoko: it is 'enpar' with the old application again. Aug 05 21:40:39 openmoko: * src/feed-data.c: Aug 05 21:40:43 openmoko: (rss_filter_entries): Use FeedFilter::category for filtering categories Aug 05 21:40:45 openmoko: * src/feed-selection-view.c: Aug 05 21:44:08 hey Aug 05 21:46:17 Hmm. Aug 05 21:46:28 * SpeedEvil fails at finding mini-b plug shells. Aug 05 21:47:10 zecke: Work day? Aug 05 21:47:28 stefan_schmidt: no, grand-ma's party is over Aug 05 21:47:35 zecke: heh Aug 05 21:47:37 is every openmoko application going version 2? Aug 05 21:47:45 the app looks like crap though :) Aug 05 21:47:59 aevin: Every app we control, yes Aug 05 21:48:06 zecke: It builds? Aug 05 21:48:07 aevin: yes, every app will be rewritten in Qt (even the kernel!) and will have version 2. Aug 05 21:48:22 stefan_schmidt: okay, so OM 2007.2 is supposed to have all openmoko-*2 applications ? Aug 05 21:48:24 ah - got it. Aug 05 21:48:29 aevin: yes Aug 05 21:48:42 stefan_schmidt: it builds, runs, shouldn't crash Aug 05 21:48:55 zecke: ok, I'll test it on the camp Aug 05 21:49:10 wow, I didn't know the v2 apps were going Qt! that is quite huge news to me, I think. Aug 05 21:49:11 stefan_schmidt: the only known issue is: moko-finger-scroll refuses to draw the indicator on top of the WebKitGtkPage Aug 05 21:49:13 interesting :) Aug 05 21:49:13 * stefan_schmidt had a nice sunny day with bbq in the evening Aug 05 21:49:23 stefan_schmidt: are you at the camp yet? Aug 05 21:49:31 aevin: Don't trust zecke :) Aug 05 21:49:37 zecke: No, tuesday Aug 05 21:49:52 stefan_schmidt: okay ;-) he got me. Aug 05 21:50:25 aevin: this "even the kernel!" didn't make you ...? Aug 05 21:51:01 zecke: No I understand the job offer from TT. Bitching about QT in OM ;) Aug 05 21:51:08 s/No/Now/ Aug 05 21:51:09 stefan_schmidt meant: zecke: Now I understand the job offer from TT. Bitching about QT in OM ;) Aug 05 21:51:13 zecke: lol. it should have, but I read it hastily. Aug 05 21:51:34 stefan_schmidt: well, it could have been QuickTime ;) Aug 05 21:52:29 zecke: you got an offer -- and rejected it? Aug 05 21:52:52 * zecke never gets job offers Aug 05 21:53:32 I just listen to radiohead and feel like a creep Aug 05 21:54:06 hm Aug 05 21:54:15 * stefan_schmidt thinks zecke gets tons of offers but prefers to stay a homeless sarcastic dude :) Aug 05 21:54:45 hehe :) Aug 05 21:55:11 * SpeedEvil offers zecke a general gardening job. Payment in any peanuts he can grow. Aug 05 21:56:11 stefan_schmidt: actually, I feel a lot like homer simpson. Specially as in the episode Tingle-Tangle-Bob is out of prison (again) and the simpsons go to the withness-protection program Aug 05 21:56:53 zecke: so you love driving through the cactus fields then? ;) Aug 05 21:56:57 zecke: Yeah, that one is cool. I like the t-shirts he wear for the project or learning his new name. :) Aug 05 21:57:32 stefan_schmidt: When it goes to job offers, I'm like homer learning his new name Aug 05 21:57:35 * stefan_schmidt was in the simpsons movie on friday. Not brilliant but good fun. Like a long episode. Aug 05 21:58:48 zecke: So why? You have the talent to really change stuff. Seems I need to get you drunk at the camp and let you sign a OM contract. mickey|sports would love me for this. ;) Aug 05 21:59:53 stefan_schmidt: hehe. I found out if you say "Flickr photos" to a dutch guy he is going to think you are gay :) Aug 05 22:00:28 zecke: :D Aug 05 22:00:48 Yeey. I should get my neo tomorrow/the day after. Aug 05 22:01:27 http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/freyther/feedreader2.png Aug 05 22:02:21 :) Aug 05 22:03:27 crap as in missing icons (going to send a mail now) Aug 05 22:04:01 zecke: The above filter menu is just for the different feeds? Aug 05 22:04:22 zecke: can it be used without a stylus? Aug 05 22:04:35 Vegar: my macbook doesn't have a stylus :) Aug 05 22:04:55 zecke: on a neo? Aug 05 22:05:27 Vegar: I'm going to try it on tuesday but I assume I will have plenty of time from wednesday to sunday to fix any issues Aug 05 22:05:50 ok Aug 05 22:05:51 cool Aug 05 22:15:59 SpeedEvil: what do you need a mini-b shell for? Aug 05 22:16:15 brb Aug 05 22:16:28 SpeedEvil: it's also called mini-usb since OTG showed up Aug 05 22:22:12 Kliment: I want as close to a right-angle flush connector as I can get. Aug 05 22:22:56 hi everyone, i have a question about the logitech Z5450 surround set, is the internal decoder capable of transforming a stereo signal into a quadrofonic sound Aug 05 22:23:16 like that the two front and the two rear boxes will play sound Aug 05 22:26:13 re Aug 05 22:27:44 hi zecke Aug 05 22:28:54 ljp: how are you? Aug 05 22:28:56 Kliment_: which practically means fabricating one. Aug 05 22:29:01 good. Aug 05 22:30:15 so is om2007.2 just mainly a ui related branch? Aug 05 22:30:41 ljp: awesome :) Aug 05 22:30:51 and you? Aug 05 22:30:56 ljp: can you say something about Qtopia4.3? Aug 05 22:31:06 it looks better than 4.2 Aug 05 22:31:21 ljp: well, my grand-ma just turned 90 and tomorrow I'm flying back home Aug 05 22:31:21 and there will be some good news soon Aug 05 22:31:44 like Knut going to the camp as well? Aug 05 22:31:55 stefan_schmidt: did you convince mickeyl to join us at the camp? Aug 05 22:33:00 dont know what knut is doing Aug 05 22:33:13 I think he has vacations Aug 05 22:33:56 zecke: I fear he is still undecided. I should try to bait him with your presence. :) Aug 05 22:34:19 mickey|sports: You _must_ come to the camp. Even zecke is coming. :) Aug 05 22:34:40 2007.2 looks heaps better Aug 05 22:34:49 definately, yes Aug 05 22:35:04 Is there an actual 2000.7 downloadable image? Aug 05 22:35:14 SpeedEvil: no but 2007.2 Aug 05 22:35:18 on buildhost (if it is up again) Aug 05 22:35:21 * SpeedEvil sighs. Aug 05 22:35:22 Ah Aug 05 22:35:25 erm Aug 05 22:35:25 haha! Aug 05 22:35:29 didn't see the 7 :) Aug 05 22:35:38 folks.o-hand.com/~chris had images as well Aug 05 22:35:39 http://people.openmoko.org/alphaone/images/ Aug 05 22:35:55 Is there a 'upgrading from inside linux, not u-boot'? Aug 05 22:36:00 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Norway]] [[Application_Development_Crash_Course]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Oslo]] Aug 05 22:37:25 SpeedEvil, don't think so Aug 05 22:38:58 SpeedEvil, that would be pretty sweet...upgrade on the go Aug 05 22:43:53 lol, i've had to resort to dialing via the gsm shell... Aug 05 22:43:54 :-D Aug 05 22:44:49 Wee... mickey is doing sports for 15 hours? ;-) Aug 05 22:45:32 when are the next olympic games? :) Aug 05 22:46:05 openmoko: 03zecke * r2642 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (ChangeLog src/feed-data.c): (log message trimmed) Aug 05 22:46:05 openmoko: 2007-08-06 Holger Hans Peter Freyther Aug 05 22:46:05 openmoko: Remove old feed posts from the model only once the new posts Aug 05 22:46:05 openmoko: were fetched and parsed. Aug 05 22:46:05 openmoko: * src/feed-data.c: Aug 05 22:46:06 openmoko: (remove_old_items): Aug 05 22:46:10 openmoko: (feed_update_thread): Aug 05 22:47:53 so far, it seems i'm more interested in fixing up gsmd Aug 05 22:47:57 when/where is this camp? Aug 05 22:48:02 first thing i want to fix is the damn init scripts Aug 05 22:48:08 ccc camp Aug 05 22:48:12 Kliment_: events.ccc.de Aug 05 22:48:35 ah crap Aug 05 22:48:48 it had to be at the time when I'm at the OTHER end of germany Aug 05 22:48:52 so close and yet so far Aug 05 22:49:48 germany has another end? Aug 05 22:49:56 zecke: Köln Aug 05 22:50:04 cya :) Aug 05 22:50:22 during the time of the ccc, I have to Aug 05 22:50:22 Kliment_: take a cheap airplane to berlin? Aug 05 22:50:24 in 2009 (or whenever it is next time) I think I'll have to make sure my vacation coincide with CCC Aug 05 22:50:27 get a work permit Aug 05 22:50:34 fix my contract with the university Aug 05 22:50:39 find an apartment Aug 05 22:50:51 arrange for bank, internet and phone stuff Aug 05 22:50:53 apartments and contracts are overrated Aug 05 22:51:07 get health insurance Aug 05 22:51:08 zecke get some sleep Aug 05 22:51:15 etc etc Aug 05 22:51:25 woglinde: why? :) Aug 05 22:51:33 you can just sleep in a tent the coming week, no need for an apartment :-P Aug 05 22:51:49 Jeroen: uhm, I'm moving to germany next month Aug 05 22:52:13 and unlike finland, you can't just sleep in a tent anywhere you like Aug 05 22:52:41 here you can just set up a tent in a park or forest and noone will mind Aug 05 22:52:41 nite Aug 05 22:53:34 * Kliment_ is building vxl Aug 05 22:53:56 * Jeroen is still waiting for his phone :-P Aug 05 22:54:01 I'll hack on eye movement stuff until my phone gets here Aug 05 22:54:14 then I get to do power consumption and UI work Aug 05 22:54:14 i got charged twice :-( Aug 05 22:54:26 daMaestro: that is very bad Aug 05 22:54:30 and have yet to hear back from support@ for a refund Aug 05 22:54:43 yeah, i really don't want to go to my bank's fraud dept. Aug 05 22:54:44 daMaestro: did you get your phone yet/ Aug 05 22:54:47 ? Aug 05 22:54:49 yes Aug 05 22:54:51 daMaestro: but maybe you can give one to one of those poor souls with a very high order number Aug 05 22:55:08 no, i only got one phone Aug 05 22:55:11 and got charged twice Aug 05 22:55:16 oh I see Aug 05 22:55:20 daMaestro: are you in Denver? Aug 05 22:55:25 DukeOfURL, yes Aug 05 22:55:40 we should get serious about a user's group meeting Aug 05 22:55:50 DukeOfURL, i'm all for it Aug 05 22:55:59 DukeOfURL, i'm actually at a cafe right now about to meet up for a hack session Aug 05 22:56:01 MacNorth is in Ft Collings Aug 05 22:56:28 what are you doing tomorrow? Aug 05 22:56:31 work Aug 05 22:56:37 ugh Aug 05 22:56:43 DukeOfURL: go meet them at that cafe Aug 05 22:56:52 which one? Aug 05 22:57:24 no idea, maybe daMaestro will tell you Aug 05 22:57:49 but I must sleep Aug 05 22:57:59 up in 5 hours, flying in te Aug 05 22:58:03 ten* Aug 05 22:58:26 and I still have to pack clothes Aug 05 22:58:34 night all Aug 05 23:00:17 Kliment_, see you in koeln? :D Aug 05 23:02:09 is there anything like dhclient on the neo? Aug 05 23:06:33 night Aug 05 23:09:31 * Kragnerac Aug 05 23:09:40 'night Aug 05 23:13:50 SpeedEvil - BTW: Did you have a current probe on the battery? Aug 05 23:15:08 I do, yes, though at the moment it's twisted wire only. Aug 05 23:15:58 I found the most convenient way to measure current was to take a USB lead, with the power wire cut, and measure the battery current. Aug 05 23:16:23 This way it measures the current in the mode you care about. Aug 05 23:16:38 Huh? Aug 05 23:16:54 You don't care about USB current - as it's plugged in then. Aug 05 23:16:59 Ahh, so that you can do usbnet, while the neo runs on battery. Yeah. Aug 05 23:17:01 You only care about battery drain. Aug 05 23:17:11 As I have no bluetooth keyboard. Aug 05 23:17:41 Yeah, I still did not convince myself to buy a BT dongle for my desktop. Aug 05 23:17:41 I need to make a script to do this properly. Aug 05 23:18:02 And find out how to switch off the WM* chip, and the LM* chip. Aug 05 23:18:56 !logs Aug 05 23:18:58 Channel logs for #openmoko are archived at: Aug 05 23:18:59 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/%23openmoko Aug 05 23:19:00 Live-logs are available at Aug 05 23:19:01 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/livelogs/%23openmoko.livelog Aug 05 23:19:03 See ?? help-logs for usage instructions Aug 05 23:19:23 WM: I don't know. Aug 05 23:19:27 LM: alsamixer, I think. Aug 05 23:19:59 the WM* is the wolfson media 'sound-card'. the LM is the audio amp. Aug 05 23:20:01 What I'm wondering: Did you measure battery current in "off" mode? Aug 05 23:20:05 where should i fill in the dns server on openmoko? Aug 05 23:20:17 Actually - I diddn't. Only suspend. Aug 05 23:20:22 borg_ - Like on any linux system: /etc/resolv.conf Aug 05 23:20:29 there is no /etc/resolv.conf Aug 05 23:20:34 Make one! Aug 05 23:20:37 ok :) Aug 05 23:20:40 nameserver 1.2.3.4 Aug 05 23:20:45 nameserver 3.4.5.6 Aug 05 23:20:50 a couple is a good plan. Aug 05 23:20:51 Buy one! I sell them for $10. ;o) Aug 05 23:20:57 (note, neither of those are real ones) Aug 05 23:21:29 aaah Aug 05 23:21:31 it works :) Aug 05 23:21:32 yeha Aug 05 23:21:49 borg_ - Send $5 to SpeedEvil and $5 to me ;o) Aug 05 23:21:58 ohuh :) Aug 05 23:21:59 :) Aug 05 23:22:03 SpeedEvil: shouldn't the pppd do it for you? Aug 05 23:22:08 Well. Aug 05 23:22:09 echo nameserver 1.2.3.4 > /etc/resolv.conf Aug 05 23:22:12 send me some money too Aug 05 23:22:13 i have a bridge between eth0 and usb0 now Aug 05 23:22:13 ;-) Aug 05 23:22:16 I can only say that in my case, it did not. Aug 05 23:22:24 so my neo is really in my network now :D Aug 05 23:22:51 SpeedEvil: did you use usepeerdns? Aug 05 23:23:36 I used the script on the wiki Aug 05 23:23:51 Modified a little to kill gsmd and turn the modem off and on Aug 05 23:23:56 SpeedEvil: (of course, even with usepeerdns, it's the ip-up script which actually does the resolv.conf mangling) Aug 05 23:25:11 gsmd crashes on my every few calls; but i'm normally able to use the dialer now, and if need be i can use the libgsm shell Aug 05 23:25:33 daMaestro - Can you receive calls? Aug 05 23:25:54 not via the gui Aug 05 23:26:03 but via the libgsm shell, yes Aug 05 23:26:34 If anyone cares - http://www.mauve.plus.com/gprs-connect-chat is the chat script I used. Aug 05 23:26:40 t-mobile-uk Aug 05 23:29:21 Elrond: lowest mode I tested was 'echo mem >/sys/power/state' which came out at 120mW Aug 05 23:29:55 Which is some 36 hours Aug 05 23:30:15 GPS _seems_ to be 20mW or so. Aug 05 23:30:37 This may not be in the fully powered up condition though. Aug 05 23:30:53 Huh? Aug 05 23:31:10 How did you power it up? Aug 05 23:31:52 I simply echoed 1 to pwron Aug 05 23:32:23 Ahh. That's not enough. ;o) Aug 05 23:32:35 What does that do? Aug 05 23:33:09 Hmmm... if you ran gllin before... it probably is close to power up. Aug 05 23:33:14 Interestingly, clock speed 100Mhz and clock speed 200Mhz - as set by u-boot - use the same. Aug 05 23:33:18 I don't think I had. Aug 05 23:33:35 Otherwise it just puts some GPIO to high. ;-) Aug 05 23:33:47 Oh - it's a chip enable then. Aug 05 23:33:54 Yes. Aug 05 23:33:54 rather than a turn voltage rails on. Aug 05 23:34:16 The hammerhead has various voltages, that it loves. Aug 05 23:34:32 And it loves them to be switched on in the right order. With delays here and there. Aug 05 23:35:03 "echo power_up > power_sequence" comes close. Aug 05 23:35:31 does power_down kill it properly? Aug 05 23:35:46 No. Aug 05 23:35:50 Oh well. Aug 05 23:35:53 Or I don't think so. Aug 05 23:35:58 I guess echoing 0 to all the voltages will. Aug 05 23:36:46 for i in power_*; do; echo -n "$i: "; cat $i; done Aug 05 23:36:50 I'm trying to work out a nice way to do this semi-accurately. Aug 05 23:36:53 All those with 1: Put a 0 in there. Aug 05 23:36:58 yeah Aug 05 23:37:26 I will fixup the python gps power-modules soon. It's currently modeled after gllin, which is also broken. Aug 05 23:39:37 The gps power stuff is very unclean. :-| Aug 05 23:40:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Neo1973_uboot_splash.jpg - just curious... does anyone know the meaning of the 'nomad' branding of that prototype? Aug 05 23:40:23 hi, anyone who can update the wiki page about wifi? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko Aug 05 23:40:39 I have some more detailed info about marvell wifi stuff and palmld if you are interested Aug 05 23:40:50 abraxa_ - No. Aug 05 23:41:24 Yes, anyone can. Aug 05 23:41:34 Im too lazy to register ... Aug 05 23:41:37 :-B Aug 05 23:42:14 do you have it in a blob of text? Aug 05 23:42:29 If so, DCC it to me, and I may put it in if I've got time. Aug 05 23:42:30 ok ... I already registered ... Aug 05 23:42:33 lesse Aug 05 23:42:36 Or do that. Aug 05 23:43:18 if i do Aug 05 23:43:19 allow-hotplug usb0 Aug 05 23:43:21 iface usb0 inet manual Aug 05 23:43:45 then the following should be called if i put in the neo Aug 05 23:43:46 or? Aug 05 23:43:51 in /etc/network/interfaces Aug 05 23:44:42 Yes. Aug 05 23:44:45 mh Aug 05 23:44:45 Works nicely for me. Aug 05 23:44:49 it works if i do it manuelly Aug 05 23:44:52 i test it with Aug 05 23:44:55 post-up echo 1 > /home/olaf/test Aug 05 23:45:10 there is not /home/olaf/test if i put in the neo ... Aug 05 23:45:15 Works to the point, that I can ssh into neo, unplug neo, take it outside, come back, plug back in, continue to use the ssh. Aug 05 23:45:18 if i do ifup usb0 it works Aug 05 23:45:19 that sucks Aug 05 23:45:46 borg_ - Do you have udev or some other hotplug manager? Aug 05 23:46:03 yes, udv Aug 05 23:46:05 +e Aug 05 23:46:10 olaf@pc:~$ ps aux | grep udev Aug 05 23:46:10 root 2580 0.0 0.1 2908 1192 ? S (ubuntu feisty) Aug 05 23:46:30 Hmm, strange. Aug 05 23:46:38 hotplug worls with a bunch of other devices Aug 05 23:46:41 debian testing here, works really nice. Aug 05 23:47:19 i made a bridge with Aug 05 23:47:21 auto br0 Aug 05 23:47:21 iface br0 inet dhcp bridge_ports eth0 Aug 05 23:47:23 and Aug 05 23:47:30 iface usb0 inet manual up ifconfig $IFACE 0.0.0.0 up post-up brctl addif br0 usb0 Aug 05 23:47:36 it works too Aug 05 23:47:43 but not automatically with hotplug Aug 05 23:48:30 oh, irssi has eaten some word wraps ;) Aug 05 23:48:54 I just checked out a OE-monotone-snapshot but when I try to update it it complains about a wrong version. I have monotone 0.29 Aug 05 23:49:06 what version does the latest snapshot want? Aug 05 23:49:21 olaf@pc:~$ mtn --version Aug 05 23:49:21 monotone 0.35 (Basis-Revision: f92dd754bf5c1e6eddc9c462b8d68691cfeb7f8b) Aug 05 23:49:54 i dont know if 0.35 is needed Aug 05 23:50:02 but it does work with 0.35 ;) Aug 05 23:50:18 ok, 0.29 seems to be a *bit* older :) Aug 05 23:50:26 debian stable's monotone is enough. Aug 05 23:50:47 monotone 0.31 works for me. Aug 05 23:50:48 what's debian stable's monotone? Aug 05 23:51:17 0.35 is a whole shitload faster for some operations Aug 05 23:51:24 mmh Aug 05 23:51:31 however, I'm updating at moment Aug 05 23:51:33 Elrond: i had some problems with Version: 0.31-7 Aug 05 23:51:43 thats the feisty version Aug 05 23:51:54 borg_ - Hmm. I have -8. Aug 05 23:51:58 so i did apt-get -t gutsy install monotone Aug 05 23:52:05 Elrond: ah, ok Aug 05 23:52:15 but the gutsy version of monotone works well :) Aug 05 23:52:24 XorA|gone - Ahh, good to know. monotone pull is just a CPU killer. Aug 05 23:52:28 and it really seems to be a lot faster as XorA|gone said Aug 05 23:52:52 0.35-etch0.1 on my ubuntu Aug 06 00:08:17 mmh Aug 06 00:08:25 i could write an udev rule for the neo Aug 06 00:26:00 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko ok, I updated the marvell and sychip sections from my (palmld developer working on 88w8305) view ;) Aug 06 00:30:40 :) Aug 06 00:31:01 Is the usb device actually switchable at this time? Aug 06 00:36:21 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management]] [[OpenMoko_Local_Groups]] [[How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC/ru]] Aug 06 00:38:34 SpeedEvil, switchable? how do you mean? Aug 06 00:38:44 host/device Aug 06 00:39:05 its an usb gadget Aug 06 00:39:11 or you mean if it can work in AP mode? Aug 06 00:39:21 It can be either a host or a device. Aug 06 00:39:35 nah, its only device Aug 06 00:39:38 afaik Aug 06 00:39:38 I'm wondering if the in-kernel switching code has been written, as I can't see it. Aug 06 00:39:41 No, it's not. Aug 06 00:39:49 There is one device, and one host/device. Aug 06 00:40:02 err Aug 06 00:40:31 the thing I have here behaves only as a gadget and I believe it works only that way Aug 06 00:40:53 There _is_ a host/device port on the chip. Aug 06 00:40:53 (OLPC 8388 dongle) Aug 06 00:41:15 damnit, I really hate CC:s sometimes Aug 06 00:41:25 SpeedEvil, so its probably n/a on my dongle Aug 06 00:41:30 No. Aug 06 00:41:38 SpeedEvil, Im sure marvell will just give you more details on this Aug 06 00:41:47 Why would I care about marvel? Aug 06 00:41:54 Sorry - not following. Aug 06 00:42:06 because marvell does those 88W8388 USB chips ;) Aug 06 00:42:15 Sorry - I wasn't talking about that. Aug 06 00:42:21 ah ... I see Aug 06 00:42:24 np ;-) Aug 06 00:59:58 * SpeedEvil has had a nasty thought. Aug 06 01:00:12 There _is_ a host/device, and one device port on the SoC. Aug 06 01:00:15 However. Aug 06 01:00:21 SpeedEvil: Eating peanut butter with jelly? Aug 06 01:00:26 The USB bluetooth device is a device. Aug 06 01:00:29 Yeah, nasty indeed. Aug 06 01:00:33 Therefore it must be connected to a host. Aug 06 01:00:44 therefore the host/device port must be connected to that. Aug 06 01:00:54 Leaving only the device port on the external connector. Aug 06 01:01:03 SpeedEvil: wasn't it the opposite? Aug 06 01:01:17 No. Aug 06 01:01:21 SpeedEvil: i.e. the bluetooth dongle connected to the device only port, and the host/device is the external one? Aug 06 01:01:35 (which is how you can do a "host mode" trick with a magic cable...) Aug 06 01:01:37 It's a device-only - as seen from inside the chip. Aug 06 01:01:47 it has one host-controller. Aug 06 01:02:08 it has one host-controller/device controller, and one device controller. Aug 06 01:02:23 I see, I mixed the sides Aug 06 01:02:35 I _really_ hope I'm wrong. Aug 06 01:02:49 ;/ Aug 06 01:03:20 * anrp doesn't really feel like going at the neo with a hot air gun Aug 06 01:03:32 but no idea if the hw devs will say Aug 06 01:03:41 hey all Aug 06 01:05:12 so, whats new and sundy today? Aug 06 01:05:54 oops. Aug 06 01:06:00 ignore me. Aug 06 01:06:22 'supports 2 port usb host interface' Aug 06 01:06:29 p32 Aug 06 01:07:39 but wiring a single port for both device and host is a bit iffy Aug 06 01:07:55 not impossible... iffy Aug 06 01:10:19 no. Aug 06 01:10:29 To clarify on datasheet reading: Aug 06 01:10:40 It has one two port host controller, and a device controller. Aug 06 01:11:10 One of the usb ports can be switched between the host controller and the device controller. Aug 06 01:11:51 So it'll be the host-only connector connected to the bluetooth module, and the host/device one exposed. Aug 06 01:14:11 SpeedEvil: yes, that's how I understand it (I had host/device swapped when I said it above) Aug 06 01:14:18 is it a sensible hw request to have two usb ports on a future neo? Aug 06 01:14:25 No. Aug 06 01:14:39 * khaije1 can't tell if thats what is being discussed.... Aug 06 01:14:40 Because that would mean you'd need another USB port on the SoC Aug 06 01:14:54 SpeedEvil: or a usb hub chip Aug 06 01:15:02 SpeedEvil: like the 4-port one on the debugboardv2 Aug 06 01:15:14 There are two usb host ports on the current one - one has the bluetooth plugged in. Aug 06 01:15:23 it would open some interesting possibilities Aug 06 01:15:23 I'm considering something similar to that cesarb. Aug 06 01:15:37 SpeedEvil: the problem would be the power Aug 06 01:15:39 Basically a plug-in shim into the bluetooth port. Aug 06 01:16:01 With a tab folding into the battery bay to take power from there. Aug 06 01:16:06 SpeedEvil: not the power for the USB data path, but the power for the USB power part Aug 06 01:16:12 I know. Aug 06 01:16:37 I have the parts, I'm running low on funding at the moment, so I'm stalled on some things. Aug 06 01:17:13 * cesarb recaps... one USB to the outside, one USB to the bluetooth, one serial to either the debugboard console or the GSM, one serial to the GPS... Aug 06 01:17:28 two serials to the GPS Aug 06 01:17:31 Someone *has* to make a diagram of it :P Aug 06 01:17:37 one configured as the others serials RTS/CTS Aug 06 01:17:44 SpeedEvil: two serials? that's where the serial I'm missing went? Aug 06 01:17:57 * cesarb was sure there were three Aug 06 01:18:07 There are three serial ports - but if you want the third, you need to lose the seconds rts/cts Aug 06 01:18:14 which are used by the GPS Aug 06 01:18:17 SpeedEvil: hm Aug 06 01:18:38 (and there's also the SPI/I2C/etc... we really need a block diagram) Aug 06 01:18:52 And a block diagram of the WM chip Aug 06 01:19:01 and a block diagram of the pcf* chip Aug 06 01:19:17 SpeedEvil: and a block diagram of the power buses Aug 06 01:20:03 * SpeedEvil considers an amazon wishlist, with tasks against it. Aug 06 01:20:39 D:? Aug 06 01:22:55 what registers control between PD[NP]0/D[NP]1 selection? Aug 06 01:23:06 i don't see it on a casual search of the datasheet Aug 06 01:23:07 ? Aug 06 01:23:15 You mean the USB? Aug 06 01:23:17 dev vs host Aug 06 01:23:17 ya Aug 06 01:23:31 MISCCR Aug 06 01:23:47 MISCCR[3] USBPAD Aug 06 01:24:16 oh Aug 06 01:24:18 s3c2410-usb-switch.patch has some details in it. Aug 06 01:24:20 >_> why didn't i find that Aug 06 01:24:27 But I don't understand how it can be called. Aug 06 01:27:00 looks like it might live in sysfs Aug 06 01:27:09 yes - but where! :) Aug 06 01:27:21 that is an excellent question ~_~ Aug 06 01:27:54 SpeedEvil: retval = device_create_file(&dev->dev, &dev_attr_usb_mode); Aug 06 01:28:07 SpeedEvil: it's the directory corresponding to wharever "dev" is there Aug 06 01:29:57 The filename is linux-2.6.20.4/drivers/usb/host/ohci-s3c2410.c, so I'd guess you can look at /sys/class/usb_host and find the directory there (follow the "device" symlink) Aug 06 01:30:02 well i'd tell you except my neo battery is dead Aug 06 01:30:11 so its broke for now Aug 06 01:30:17 Oddly - mine is crashed. Aug 06 01:30:39 too lazy to hook it up to a lab ps to charge it a bit Aug 06 01:30:52 although i need to make a test jig out of plastic anyway Aug 06 01:31:06 rebooting now. Aug 06 01:31:29 Do you have copper tape? Aug 06 01:31:43 i have a large number of things made of copper Aug 06 01:31:44 Take copper tape, cut two strips. Aug 06 01:31:56 put back onto a strip of backing of the tape. Aug 06 01:31:57 i have a 12" x 4" x 0.5" bar of copper, will that help? *cough* Aug 06 01:32:24 now, you can simply insert this between the battery and battery holder. Aug 06 01:32:42 Solder a couple of wires onto the tape, and put a wrap of duct-tape around it to secure it. Aug 06 01:33:05 duck tape! Aug 06 01:33:24 how is your neo crashed? Aug 06 01:33:38 Hey, wait a little bit... Aug 06 01:33:43 The patch is there, but not applied! Aug 06 01:33:50 It's not in the "series" file"! Aug 06 01:33:52 that would explain a little D: Aug 06 01:34:37 Oh - right, I was assuming everyting in the checkout was present. Aug 06 01:35:12 SpeedEvil: no, quilt only applies what is on the series file Aug 06 01:35:22 SpeedEvil: the same way one of the mokomakefile patches is ignores Aug 06 01:35:26 s/ignores/ignored/ Aug 06 01:35:27 cesarb meant: SpeedEvil: the same way one of the mokomakefile patches is ignored Aug 06 01:39:25 $ svn log s3c2410-usb-switch.patch Aug 06 01:39:31 r1665 | laforge | 2007-04-05 18:36:44 -0300 (Qui, 05 Abr 2007) | 2 lines Aug 06 01:39:35 add (inactive) patch for usb host/device switching Aug 06 01:39:49 Which means the didn't add it to the "series" file on purpose... Aug 06 01:40:06 Wonder why. Aug 06 01:40:44 SpeedEvil: probably because of the "FIXME" it has Aug 06 01:40:50 FIXME: Aug 06 01:40:55 - call machine-specific disable-pullup function i Aug 06 01:41:02 - enable +Vbus (if hardware supports it) Aug 06 01:41:04 Oh - riht Aug 06 01:41:08 I just saw the second Aug 06 01:41:38 * SpeedEvil wonders if it's in gpio.txt Aug 06 01:42:10 GPB9OGPB9USB_PULLUPUSB pullup to signal the host that we're ready? Aug 06 01:42:25 SpeedEvil: beat by a second ;-) Aug 06 01:42:57 The other fixme is harder :) Aug 06 01:43:32 that makes sense - along witht he context. Aug 06 01:43:47 it's swapping to host mode, so we don't want to signal the host we are ready. Aug 06 01:44:12 Hm, about the diagram... I recall using xcircuit in the past... Which can be found in ubuntu dapper, edgy, and gutsy, but NOT on feisty! Aug 06 01:44:25 xpaint! Aug 06 01:44:29 :) Aug 06 01:44:39 xpaint on the neo is not pretty. Aug 06 01:44:48 _wobbly_ lines. Aug 06 01:45:03 I do hope that the TS can be improved - it seems to dither over about 25 pixels. Aug 06 01:46:11 can anybody here help me with using the sjf2410-linux jtag tool? Aug 06 01:46:11 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ ) Aug 06 01:46:18 (that's a circle 4 pix or so in diameter) Aug 06 01:46:39 * SpeedEvil has no clue. Aug 06 01:47:13 hm, aloril's auto-faq script seems to be broken Aug 06 01:47:21 SpeedEvil: is that without screen protector that is in place when Neo1973 ships? Aug 06 01:47:40 cesarb: it had 'help' string in question ;-) Aug 06 01:47:58 No - I was leaving it on till I get a proper screen protector Aug 06 01:48:08 Does it make a difference? Aug 06 01:49:51 anyone? Aug 06 01:50:14 More people are active a bit earlier. Aug 06 01:51:02 hmmm buildhost and .com are still down it seems Aug 06 01:51:36 SpeedEvil: dunno, I have left it in place too ;-) Aug 06 01:52:25 maybe I'll try peak test with stylus once Neo1973 boots Aug 06 01:53:11 with USB charger it seems to do this: charge enough -> boot into X11 -> user extra power for some minutes -> cut power -> repeat Aug 06 01:54:49 aloril: when booting Aug 06 01:54:58 connect to /dev/ttyACM0 Aug 06 01:55:05 and say neo1973 autofast Aug 06 01:55:21 you may need cdc_acm as a module in your hosts kernel Aug 06 01:55:34 SpeedEvil: ah, but this problem is with *dumb* USB charger ;-) Aug 06 01:56:14 with actual USB it will automatically enter fast charge (now waiting it to charge enough to boot) Aug 06 01:56:37 don't you have to charge for 30 minutes before it goes into fast charge with a dumb charger? Aug 06 01:56:38 I'm unsure - from the docs - autofast mode should charge on a dumb charger. Aug 06 01:56:53 Vegar: that was my suggestion - and it was 30s Aug 06 01:56:57 ah Aug 06 01:56:58 It's not implemented Aug 06 01:57:01 ok Aug 06 01:57:07 ah, it would store it and use it later? Aug 06 01:57:11 however, it may be in precharge mode - even before autofast Aug 06 01:57:23 is power consumption > 100mA? Aug 06 01:57:23 store it and use it later? Aug 06 01:57:27 >> Aug 06 01:57:50 Around a watt or more in normal mode. Aug 06 01:57:59 Maybe 250mA or so idle not charging the battery. Aug 06 01:58:05 from USB Aug 06 01:58:23 can anybody here help me with jtag in general? Aug 06 01:58:23 wow Aug 06 01:58:31 SpeedEvil: 1W seems... excessive Aug 06 01:58:31 that's.. Aug 06 01:58:33 a lot Aug 06 01:58:48 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader : gotta try that 'setenv menu_6 Autofast-Charge and Backlight Off: neo1973 charger autofast\; neo1973 backlight off' Aug 06 01:58:52 Indeed. Aug 06 01:59:17 SpeedEvil: got your device yet? Aug 06 01:59:26 (ok, I'm saying this while using a computer where only the monitor already uses way more than that) Aug 06 01:59:43 Vegar: I do. Aug 06 01:59:56 SpeedEvil: yes you do? ;-) Aug 06 02:00:10 Worst case I've measured is around 1.2W Aug 06 02:00:16 this is on a call. Aug 06 02:00:25 * aloril assumes above command is safe(?) Aug 06 02:00:49 actually - it's be maybe 1.4W running md5sum Aug 06 02:00:53 and on a call. Aug 06 02:01:02 SpeedEvil: what about play ogg or other near 100% CPU usage + call ( + backlight) ? Aug 06 02:01:05 You have to actively screw up the battery charging. Aug 06 02:01:32 That's annoying - I forgot to measure the non-idle-cpu case. Aug 06 02:01:42 now imagine adding wifi to that, SpeedEvil Aug 06 02:01:50 Indeed. Aug 06 02:01:55 However. Aug 06 02:01:57 they might use a larger battery Aug 06 02:02:02 and bluetooth with active transfer and gps Aug 06 02:02:04 They are using a larger battery. Aug 06 02:02:05 However. Aug 06 02:02:15 Much of the power saving is not implemented. Aug 06 02:02:22 GPS isn't bad. Aug 06 02:02:29 can't wait for P2 Aug 06 02:02:58 For example, it needs variable clock rate and voltage to the CPU. Aug 06 02:03:19 And stuff like turning off the SPI controller and the SD card if it's not in use. Aug 06 02:03:27 there is kind of way around missing power saving: use external power source (like MintyBoost), but this is of course clumsy Aug 06 02:03:29 * Kragnerac Aug 06 02:04:08 what if the screen doubled as a solar panel :) Aug 06 02:04:22 hehe i was thinking that not 10 seconds ago Aug 06 02:04:25 it could offset the power usage a little! Aug 06 02:04:30 Dual screen phone. :) Aug 06 02:04:31 I seem to remember moving that to hardware:unlikely on eht wiki. Aug 06 02:04:33 except i was thinking of the back of the neo being the panel :P Aug 06 02:04:39 How did you guys get into this stuff? Like how did you learn all about it. Because this is what I want to do but I don't know where to start. I'm only in HS but I learn quickly Aug 06 02:04:40 jimmygoon: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Aug 06 02:04:44 Psi_: lol great minds... Aug 06 02:05:06 :) Aug 06 02:05:07 What about a phone that recharges with your kinetic energy and solar energy alike? :) Aug 06 02:05:10 jimmygoon: Obtain books. Aug 06 02:05:13 Read books. Aug 06 02:05:15 Repeat. Aug 06 02:05:16 :) Aug 06 02:05:21 like those self winding watches Aug 06 02:05:27 what about a small nuclear battery :) Aug 06 02:05:31 mr fusion Aug 06 02:05:35 heh Aug 06 02:05:40 or the alcohol fuel cell Aug 06 02:05:50 Or how about a winding charger built into the phone? Aug 06 02:05:50 Psi_: yeah, a cold fusion cell Aug 06 02:05:51 Practically. Aug 06 02:05:51 what about that V8 engine? Aug 06 02:06:03 hhmm.. direct sunlight and 50% efficiency would give more than 1W .. Aug 06 02:06:05 We simply need to get the existing power saving technologies working. Aug 06 02:06:11 jaebird, one from the chainsaw? Aug 06 02:06:23 speedevil, what type of books - like electrical engineering? computer engineering? Aug 06 02:06:23 30% cells are at the moment $1000/W or so. Aug 06 02:06:33 jimmygoon: Hmm. Aug 06 02:06:34 they just made some 40% cells in the lab Aug 06 02:06:39 It's hard. Aug 06 02:06:56 they look to be easy to mass produce as well Aug 06 02:06:59 there is some company in ieee mag that is developing some new cheap solar cell Aug 06 02:07:11 there's always one Aug 06 02:07:16 saw it at work...don't remember the name Aug 06 02:07:18 jimmygoon: We can all tell you how _we_ got here. Aug 06 02:07:18 however until its for sale its not that helpful Aug 06 02:07:31 just.. nice to know? Aug 06 02:07:46 http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/31/2034239 Aug 06 02:07:52 now getting that power and still be screen.. very hard thing? Aug 06 02:07:59 anrp: not sure when commercialization begins... Aug 06 02:07:59 :) Maybe the neo will be my starting place. Read what others have done and learn along the way... Aug 06 02:08:25 Neo Multitouch :) Aug 06 02:08:34 If I was recommending stuff for me at 13 say - (apart from start talking to girls like people), I'd probably recommend something like getting assorted electronics parts kits from ebay, and The Art of Electronics. Aug 06 02:08:42 you could have the solar cell get power from the backlight Aug 06 02:08:45 no need for battery then! Aug 06 02:09:22 And for computing - ... Aug 06 02:09:31 In some ways it's harder to learn now. Aug 06 02:10:03 Most systems have millions of lines of source, and at least dozens of peripheral chips. Aug 06 02:10:03 just start off doing something you really want Aug 06 02:10:27 easy to say Aug 06 02:10:31 what if you don't know what you want? Aug 06 02:10:44 With something like a ZX81, you could actually make a reasonable stab at understanding all parts of the system, and having complete knowledge of it. Aug 06 02:10:50 anrp: then you must find out what you want Aug 06 02:11:09 now it booted: battvolt: 3521 chgcur: 2773 chgmode: fast_cccv battemp: 2342 Aug 06 02:11:22 2342! Aug 06 02:11:29 With current PCs, I would say there are probably a few hundred people in the world at that level of understanding. Aug 06 02:11:31 call em up boys, we got ourselves a nukular furnace! Aug 06 02:11:35 OMG - it's on fire! Aug 06 02:11:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC_Stamp <-- good introduction for folks interested in the basics of embedded microcontrollers and such... Aug 06 02:11:57 I suspect a few hundred may be too large. Aug 06 02:12:03 basic stamp is a good plan. Aug 06 02:12:04 now: battvolt: 3550 chgcur: 2133 chgmode: fast_cccv battemp: -10 Aug 06 02:12:10 .. Aug 06 02:12:12 still though.. basic.. Aug 06 02:12:41 Heh, yeah. Aug 06 02:13:16 C compilers also available for the processor used in the device, along with (gasp!) Java Aug 06 02:13:25 and Assembly, of course. Aug 06 02:13:52 a bit off-topic: it's amazing how realistic this picture is: http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/v/tg09gallery/Ter148.jpg.html Aug 06 02:14:12 lighting is too perfect Aug 06 02:14:33 but.. yeah Aug 06 02:14:36 other than that Aug 06 02:14:47 hm.. neo is 3.7v at 1200mAh so thats 3.7*1.2 = 4.44W for one hour , or 3.2kW for 5 sec. Enough energy in the battery to start a car once if you extracted it over, say, 12hours :P Aug 06 02:15:05 :-O Aug 06 02:15:13 peukert's rule of thumb Aug 06 02:15:25 The refraction is also screwed anrp. Aug 06 02:15:42 The 'sea' has a similar refractive index to air. Aug 06 02:15:48 SpeedEvil: do you have any idea what the "H-TP1517" and similars are on gpio.txt? Aug 06 02:15:52 SpeedEvil: test pads? Aug 06 02:16:00 the ghostly water D: Aug 06 02:16:02 I assume so. Aug 06 02:16:05 maybe it's magic.. or something Aug 06 02:16:05 Vegar: water seems artificial Aug 06 02:16:12 that would make it non real though Aug 06 02:16:20 decisions, decisions Aug 06 02:16:57 The lack of backlighting on the rocks looks very suspicious. Aug 06 02:18:43 Also, the waters not wet. Aug 06 02:18:59 * anrp submits http://hof.povray.org/chado.html as a contender Aug 06 02:19:05 some edges are too sharp, but otherwise good Aug 06 02:19:28 SpeedEvil, I stepped out for a second but I appreciate the info. I will start looking around a bit more intently. Unfortunately a car is a more looming purchase. Anyhow, I'm gonna get back to some C++ so bye Aug 06 02:20:17 http://hof.povray.org/ChristmasBaubles.html < and that.. I would pass that as real without knowing the source Aug 06 02:20:26 jimmygoon: Good luck! Aug 06 02:20:31 well and assuming they would turn on antialiasing Aug 06 02:20:57 glass stuff is so easy on raytracers though. Aug 06 02:21:05 yeah, but it looks awesome Aug 06 02:21:18 http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/v/tg09gallery/CraterLake_aerial.jpg.html Aug 06 02:21:39 raytracers make nice refractive index difference pictures Aug 06 02:22:36 Thats _not_ doing refractive index though. Aug 06 02:22:53 Look at the ridge-lines going into the water. Aug 06 02:22:57 they go straight. Aug 06 02:23:06 yeah Aug 06 02:23:53 http://hof.povray.org/c_a_large.html < that looks almost real, just doesn't look like anything that actually exists Aug 06 02:23:57 for(i=0;i<1000*1000*1000;i++) {sum += i; } // 22.71s with -O2, about 20x slower than PC Aug 06 02:24:24 hehe Aug 06 02:29:52 that kind of benchmark is something i'd be very careful about using Aug 06 02:30:06 i'd only really use it for comparing between the same architectures... Aug 06 02:31:17 aloril, nukkuun siitä ;) Aug 06 02:31:54 xkr47: ah, sinä olet *vielä* hereillä? minä olen *jo* herännyt ;-) Aug 06 02:32:10 väärin Aug 06 02:32:13 kolmelta heräsin Aug 06 02:32:17 * anrp discovers his terminal font is not all-encompassing Aug 06 02:32:27 åäöåäö Aug 06 02:32:31 æøå Aug 06 02:32:44 i can throw in some utf8 for good measure D: Aug 06 02:32:45 anyway -> #openmoko-fi ;-) Aug 06 02:32:51 ã‚ã Aug 06 02:32:53 ;/ Aug 06 02:33:40 anrp: true, but it does give some kind of indication, similar in python is 10x difference Aug 06 02:34:49 also you didn't define "PC". your PC? D: Aug 06 02:35:08 anrp: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2700+ (and some random light load) Aug 06 02:35:23 mm not the heaters of today Aug 06 02:35:50 i have an intentionally downclocked P4 single-core, and man is it slow Aug 06 02:35:58 anyway, still I would say its only maybe 10x slower which makes me happy Aug 06 02:36:02 still sucks the power though Aug 06 02:36:45 Err - NO. Aug 06 02:37:03 That's practically the optimum case for the neo. Aug 06 02:37:11 ? Aug 06 02:37:16 It's all in the cache. Aug 06 02:37:21 It's all integer. Aug 06 02:37:24 i'd say its fair, it would live in cache on both Aug 06 02:37:48 It's practically only going to be affected by clock rate, and number of parralellisable operations. Aug 06 02:38:10 arm isn't that horrifically slow (... as long as you don't touch FP) Aug 06 02:38:13 compared to other arches Aug 06 02:38:19 per clock Aug 06 02:38:24 Indeed - however, that's only fair if the usual problem will also sit in cache. Aug 06 02:38:26 And it won't. Aug 06 02:38:30 now it usually has fewer clocks as well ~_~ Aug 06 02:38:35 can anybody here help me with using the sjf2410-linux jtag tool, or maybe direct me to some good documentation? Aug 06 02:38:40 doesn't it have a 16kb+16kb L1? Aug 06 02:38:48 I thought it was 8+8 Aug 06 02:38:57 most x86 has similiar (although they also have massive L2, arm doesn't have anything there) Aug 06 02:39:06 mm it might be Aug 06 02:39:07 no, it's 16+16 Aug 06 02:39:38 however on slow-ish arms you can stream from normal memory at half/quarter the clock of the cpu Aug 06 02:39:47 still setup though.. Aug 06 02:45:02 crayon-dev: its usually better to ask than to ask to ask Aug 06 02:45:37 if nothing else - someone with a clue may read scrollback, and can messsage you if you've said what you need. Aug 06 02:45:44 anyway, tried http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=jtag&fulltext=Search ? Aug 06 02:50:15 A more meaningfull comparison is probably to compare the CPU usage of madplay... Aug 06 02:52:07 mplayer -benchmark ! Aug 06 02:52:28 umm... I want to compare int only, no floating point (yet ;-) Aug 06 02:52:53 http://web.mit.edu/anrp/www/zaurus/mplayer/ there's a statically linked mplayer I compiled way back for the c860 Aug 06 02:52:58 should run fine on the neo Aug 06 02:53:40 mm 2005, maybe i should remake it.. that is *really* old Aug 06 02:54:22 Would be nice. Aug 06 02:58:04 i haven't really used my zaurus to watch videos in a while, i guess Aug 06 02:58:20 my idea of a usable interface is text-mode linux with mplayer... but that's only because the Z has a keyboard Aug 06 02:58:49 grep qwert random.1MB file on PC 1000 times, grep it on Neo1973 *100* times: 1m 32.70s or about 200x slower Aug 06 02:58:53 Sigh. Aug 06 02:59:05 I should really think before starting typing., Aug 06 02:59:23 thats probably a bit unfair again D: fast memory to the pc's rescue there Aug 06 02:59:36 I just kicked off my GPRS connection, and started getting mplayer over that... **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Aug 06 02:59:57 2007