**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 04 02:59:56 2007 Sep 04 03:03:54 * * OM Bug 795 has been created by cesarb(AT)cesarb.net Sep 04 03:03:55 * * battemp values obviously bogus Sep 04 03:03:56 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=795 Sep 04 03:07:54 * * OM Bug 796 has been created by cesarb(AT)cesarb.net Sep 04 03:07:54 * * Use obviously bogus value for off-scale high battemp value Sep 04 03:07:56 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=796 Sep 04 03:38:38 pretty quiet Sep 04 03:39:52 I noticed fewer people on the train today too, I thin some are making a week of it Sep 04 03:39:58 think* Sep 04 03:40:08 train? Sep 04 03:40:28 thing with wheels that runs along metal tracks] Sep 04 03:41:09 where you at that you need a train? Sep 04 03:41:31 right up north Sep 04 03:42:01 anyway stuff to do Sep 04 03:44:24 bye Sep 04 04:35:10 moin Sep 04 04:59:16 LCD with Embedded Optical Sensors (Touch Screen and Scanner): http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=15247 Sep 04 05:00:54 aloril: Cool thing :) Sep 04 05:01:43 could detect even finger rotating, also unlocking screen would be simple: just press finger ;-) (+ for additional security certain swipe) Sep 04 05:02:34 go application idea: use this screen as go board, detect who is pressing and only put stone if right person (whose turn it is) is touching Sep 04 05:02:55 Hehe Sep 04 05:03:03 * CM bikes to work Sep 04 05:44:59 wow this channel has really calmed since last end of july Sep 04 05:56:28 morning guys Sep 04 05:56:31 * mickeyl early bird today Sep 04 05:57:37 mickeyl: Morning :) Sep 04 06:05:13 mickeyl: moin moin Sep 04 06:15:59 openmoko: 03mickey * r2900 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gps/src/openmoko-panel-gps.c: openmoko-panel-gps: not a container Sep 04 06:47:01 is buildhost.openmoko.org down? Sep 04 06:50:36 yes Sep 04 06:50:42 there's some problems Sep 04 07:25:15 i can't seem to connect, nor to openmoko.com Sep 04 07:27:45 notserpe, i'll confirm that Sep 04 07:28:28 .org is working Sep 04 07:29:04 * ljp is missing the neo while on paternity leave Sep 04 07:29:06 wow, FIC owns a pretty thick block of IP addresses Sep 04 07:29:25 no :( Sep 04 07:29:38 how thick is it? Sep 04 07:30:22 well, i see 88.198.58 88.198.62 and 88.198.84 Sep 04 07:30:47 i suppose they could be all leased servers Sep 04 07:31:04 ah ok Sep 04 07:31:15 my university owns a class b net Sep 04 07:31:21 and doesnt use it at all ;) Sep 04 07:31:40 ahh i'm wrong Sep 04 07:31:45 they are leased addresses Sep 04 07:31:50 88.198.0.0/16AS24940 owns them Sep 04 07:32:26 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Kernel]] Sep 04 07:37:51 Is there an open bug on touchscreen jitter? Sep 04 08:14:35 the buildhost is up again... Sep 04 08:18:04 (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: OpenMoko and OpenEZX at Mobile Developer Days 2007 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/09/04/openmoko-and-openezx-at-mobile-developer-days-2007/ Sep 04 08:22:28 mickeyl: so is the idea that today is the day where every date-based svn in openmoko changes to SRCREV ? Sep 04 08:46:30 I wonder what this will turn into: http://gigaom.com/2007/09/03/google-phone-facts/ Sep 04 08:54:43 morning Sep 04 08:56:14 good morning Sep 04 08:56:38 hi :) Sep 04 09:28:49 openmoko: 03mickey * r2901 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/src/buttonactions.c: neod: add aux menu entry for toggling fullscreen mode Sep 04 09:33:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Commercial_models]] [[OpenMoko_supported_hardware]] [[User:Mickey]] Sep 04 09:41:04 (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: gpsd and AGPS Sep 04 10:36:04 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: problem with vanilla-kernel-patchset Sep 04 10:41:24 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: SMedia 3362 Sep 04 10:46:04 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: SMedia 3362 and 1 other mails Sep 04 10:54:05 i still can't checkout using the mokomakefile. It tries to suck rev. 611, but fails on "A openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/data/icons" Sep 04 10:55:18 http://pastebin.com/m3ed69c4e :( Sep 04 10:55:36 riot: did I see something about you using samba? Sep 04 10:55:43 XorA: yes. Sep 04 10:55:49 riot: that will NEVER work Sep 04 10:56:20 XorA: why? Sep 04 10:56:42 riot: the list of allowed characters is different for linux and samba, also samba isnt case sensitive Sep 04 10:56:57 riot: so you get files overwritten and files renamed to remove illegal chars Sep 04 10:57:31 hmmm..ok.. i'm setting up nfs then. Sep 04 10:57:42 much better choice :-) Sep 04 10:57:58 riot: sorry I should have thought about that when you first posted Sep 04 10:59:49 XorA: ;) Sep 04 11:32:44 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:ChrisLord]] Sep 04 11:36:20 openmoko: 03laforge * r2902 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/smedia-glamo.patch: 16BPP is also TRUECOLOR in fbdev terminology. Sep 04 11:41:44 (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: SMedia 3362 Sep 04 11:51:26 heh, just thought of a app for the neo Sep 04 11:52:18 Dog-invisible-fence? Tied onto the collar? Sep 04 11:52:21 For when you are near a landline, (so you dont have to remember the number or dial it), you pickup the landphone then put the cellphone near it and select the person in your cellphone contact list you want to call then press a 'DTMF' button, and it plays the tones thus dialing the landline :) Sep 04 11:52:42 does that work? Sep 04 11:52:57 you can play DTMF tones and a landline will dial them Sep 04 11:52:59 atleast here you can Sep 04 11:53:08 Psi: works in UK Sep 04 11:53:09 not sure about othere places in the world Sep 04 11:54:36 coolness Sep 04 11:54:37 the only issue is the DTMF being loud enough Sep 04 11:54:44 you can test it easy enough, just load cooledit on your PC and play some tones with the phone off the hook Sep 04 11:55:46 cjb_ie: well, aren't neo's speakers very loud? Sep 04 11:55:52 ^ Sep 04 11:56:03 they would definitely be loud enough Sep 04 11:56:11 dunno, haven't seen one in the flesh. but generally speaking, this is an app i'd like Sep 04 11:56:31 however... the mobile device would have to be made aware of how to dial from the phone in question Sep 04 11:56:39 I'm trying to build with the mokomakefile but I get the following error: http://nopaste.com/p/ap6cuDlGw Sep 04 11:56:41 what's the intl access code, local access code, etc. Sep 04 11:56:42 can someone help me? Sep 04 11:57:05 anyone could do it right now with the neo Sep 04 11:57:28 just make a wav of the dtmf tones for ya mates phone number and play it on ya neo with madplay Sep 04 11:57:42 edistar_, what do u try? start with qemu? Sep 04 11:58:02 mdt: sry, works now, I tried to start is a root, silly thing to do Sep 04 11:58:09 i used to do DTMF dialling from a bbc micro back in the 90s :-) Sep 04 11:58:10 Psi: Im sure there is a gtk+ DTMF dialer listed on freshmeat somewhere Sep 04 11:58:32 i wanted to do it on my psion organiser too, but its sound hardware could only generate one tone at once Sep 04 11:58:37 you could try a mp3 but id bet the compression would screw it Sep 04 11:58:53 naw, DTMF is fine for mp3 Sep 04 11:59:00 ok :) Sep 04 11:59:00 it's only two tones at once. Sep 04 11:59:06 cjb_ie: don't you already have to know how to dial from the place you are with the neo itself? Sep 04 11:59:32 cjb_ie: for instance, if I'm not on my "native" area code, I have to dial 02121 before the number Sep 04 11:59:41 cesarb: no, all GSM mobiles accept numbers as +countrycode - phonenumber Sep 04 11:59:42 cesarb: not necessarily. you don't know what area code the landline phone is in, you don't necessarily know which carrier provides it... Sep 04 11:59:47 cesarb: landlines tend not to Sep 04 11:59:57 cjb_ie: (in fact 0xx21... the xx can vary) Sep 04 12:00:30 XorA: but how would you chose the carrier with +-prefixed numbers? (the xx is the carrier selection code) Sep 04 12:00:32 simple, you use the GPS to work out what area code to add :P Sep 04 12:00:43 cesarb: in UK +441506 becomes 01506, phone needs to know this Sep 04 12:00:47 in most euro countries, you use 00 where GSM uses + ... in the US, you use 011, etc Sep 04 12:00:51 cjb_ie: the area code is where you are. If you are in Rio, you know the area code is 21 Sep 04 12:01:10 can someone tell a little bit about the s-media chip? how far is the x11 driver? Sep 04 12:01:47 mdt, last i heard it was VERY basic Sep 04 12:02:20 cesarb: same here in cork :-) but ireland it's always just 0 to 'get out' of the current area, and 00 to get out of .ie - _except_ when dialling northern ireland, in which case you're supposed to use a shortcut of 048 instead of 00-44-28 Sep 04 12:02:29 Psi, oh 2d acceleration would be find ;) Sep 04 12:02:34 XorA: well, tried the +-prefixing trick, didn't work Sep 04 12:02:35 s/find/fine/ Sep 04 12:02:35 mdt meant: Psi, oh 2d acceleration would be fine ;) Sep 04 12:02:36 (and 00-44-28 may get charged as a cross-channel call, whereas 048 won't) Sep 04 12:03:05 cjb_ie: last I tried 004428 in uk it didnt work Sep 04 12:03:13 XorA: +5521nnnnnnnn doesn't work at all (giving a recorded error message), while just nnnnnnnn works Sep 04 12:03:15 XorA: i'm talking about from .ie Sep 04 12:03:31 from the UK it's just 028 Sep 04 12:03:53 cesarb: that sounds like a broken GSM implementation Sep 04 12:03:53 mdt: it doesn't want to set up the UI it just keeps changing the LCD backlight Sep 04 12:03:55 mdt, from someone on the community list "There is as I understand it at the moment only a dumb driver for it, using it as a framebuffer." Sep 04 12:04:08 XorA: so, it's not true that all carriers accept +-prefixing (it's not the phone which does that, it's the carrier) Sep 04 12:04:29 btw. the DTMF feature sounds gread. Do it! (just my 2 eurocents) Sep 04 12:04:54 cjb_ie: doesn't sound like it to me. As I said before, how the carrier guess which interstate carrier you want (Embratel or some other one)? It can't... So the only thing it can do is to error out Sep 04 12:04:55 so essentially - DTMF in principle is fine, but it'll need a lot of smarts to work out what digits to dial Sep 04 12:05:24 cesarb: it's up to you to agree that with your carrier beforehand Sep 04 12:05:31 cjb_ie: yes, but you are going to need the same smarts for the phone itself anyway Sep 04 12:05:42 cesarb: not in sensible countries Sep 04 12:06:08 cjb_ie: there's no way to agree that with my carrier beforehand. The only way to tell the carrier which interstate carrier to use is to add its code to the number being dialed Sep 04 12:06:21 cjb_ie: as in 0ccaannnnnnnn, where cc is the carrier code Sep 04 12:06:22 cesarb: then that's broken. Sep 04 12:07:00 cjb_ie: broken or not, the phone needs smarts to deal with it Sep 04 12:07:02 Psi, ah, so they just do the kernel stuff, the x-driver is still a dump fb driver... hm Sep 04 12:07:03 my openmoko-qemu hangs.. says that it's setting up UI but the console just tells me it's changing LCD backlight all the time Sep 04 12:07:11 cesarb: so if i go there, i have to start changing all my phone book entries? Sep 04 12:07:18 are you talking about dial pefixes or frequency stuff? Sep 04 12:07:30 DPThought: dial prefixes Sep 04 12:07:59 cjb_ie: I don't recall if that applies to international dialing, but if it does, yes you would have to ;-) Sep 04 12:08:02 cesarb: the ones that work in ireland, uk, netherlands, france, germany, sweden, denmark, budapest and bulgaria without problems... but in south america i suddenly have to start putting in extra digits? Sep 04 12:08:04 cesarb: I think you mixing up GSM and landlines and confusing yourself Sep 04 12:08:19 cesarb: most landlines in world use some form of DTMF, which doesnt have a + sign Sep 04 12:08:22 s/budapest/hungary/ Sep 04 12:08:23 cjb_ie meant: cesarb: the ones that work in ireland, uk, netherlands, france, germany, sweden, denmark, hungary and bulgaria without problems... but in south america i suddenly have to start putting in extra digits? Sep 04 12:08:29 cjb_ie: I don't think the rest of South America has this carrier selection implementation, I think it's Brazil only Sep 04 12:08:32 cesarb: GSM doesnt and does have capability of a + sign Sep 04 12:08:36 XorA: no, I'm not mixing Sep 04 12:08:45 cesarb: in that case, brazil has a very, very broken GSM implementation. Sep 04 12:08:59 XorA: cell phones used to lack the carrier selection code; as it was confusing, it was changed, so you dial the same way everywhere Sep 04 12:09:19 XorA: BTW, I rewrote the wikipedia article on Brazil's numbering plan, so I know what I'm speaking about ;-) Sep 04 12:09:39 cjb_ie: it's not GSM... it's the number plan itself which is that way Sep 04 12:09:43 cesarb: we are not talking carrier selection but country selection Sep 04 12:10:04 cesarb: okay, the number plan conflicts with the GSM spec then. Sep 04 12:10:17 if +5521nnnnn doesn't work, that's broken. Sep 04 12:10:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Brazil has the details Sep 04 12:10:45 prefixes are no issue at all. Store your number fully canonized ant tell your phone what the prefixes are is if you change the country Sep 04 12:11:05 (that's the article I rewrote... there's only one section at the end leftover from the previous version of the article) Sep 04 12:11:11 DPThought: except that in brazil you have to parse the number and only send part of it after their weird prefixes... Sep 04 12:11:27 DPThought: well, the issue is that fully canonicalized numbers don't work (give me a recorded error message) Sep 04 12:11:54 DPThought: I just tried with my cell phone and my landline Sep 04 12:12:07 cesarb: how do you dial a + on the landline? Sep 04 12:12:26 cjb_ie: I meant, I tried by dialing to my landline with my razr Sep 04 12:12:42 cesarb: okay Sep 04 12:12:42 cjb_ie: since I don't have another SIM nearby Sep 04 12:13:04 cesarb: your ariticle is the same as most other countries phone systems Sep 04 12:13:17 cesarb: I assume there is a local bug in your cellular provider Sep 04 12:13:20 XorA: except for the carrier selection code part Sep 04 12:13:26 if i safe my number as +49 0761 123456 (German number in freiburg) my phone could dial this number everywhere. I just have to know if i have to use the inernational prefix or not and how to use it Sep 04 12:13:26 XorA: which you have to use Sep 04 12:13:36 pardon +49 761 123456 Sep 04 12:14:28 what prefixes to use depends on the country you in. Thats by the way absolutely the same on your gsm side. So this issue needs to be solved anyway Sep 04 12:14:29 DPThought: right, on GSM the phone just sends the full number to the network, and the network figures out where it needs to route it. Sep 04 12:14:38 XorA: I don't think it's a bug, it would be more that they cannot chose one carrier selection code for me, I have to put it in the number I am dialing Sep 04 12:14:50 XorA: so the only way they can do it is to error out Sep 04 12:15:34 cesarb: or teach the neo software some smarts like we were saying Sep 04 12:15:39 though i recently bought a sim in the UK and discovered i can't dial +nnn with it... i have to start with a 2, then 00 to escape the uk, then country code and rest of number. Sep 04 12:15:43 cjb_ie: i don't think i could dial 004976112345 on a american network Sep 04 12:15:50 XorA: exactly. One more reason to have a neo if you travel too much ;-) Sep 04 12:16:01 DPThought: but you _can_ dial +49 Sep 04 12:16:18 cesarb: sorry I think I misunderstood you I thought you were trying to shoot idea down :-) Sep 04 12:16:39 however, on landlines, especially in the US, it gets terribly messy. most, but not all, operators use 011 as the international dialling prefix Sep 04 12:16:49 XorA: I was just saying the extra smarts are needed even for cell calls, not only for DTMF trickery, so it comes for free Sep 04 12:17:25 is there any progress about making reliably calls with the neo? Sep 04 12:17:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carrier_Selection_Code is another article explaining the issue... (this one is not mine) Sep 04 12:17:29 <_buz> support +country code in gsm was a stroke of genius Sep 04 12:17:35 cjb_ie: sure? Ok this would make things easy on this side. But if you have your number stored this way you could easyly make a rule how to dial on a landline as soon as you know the prefixes (maybe nt in brazil) Sep 04 12:17:38 and on US landlines (and in ireland and i think increasingly in other EU countries) you can (optionally) prefix a carrier preselect code before the number you're dialling. Sep 04 12:18:02 DPThought: but you also have to know how long the area codes are, for local calls. Sep 04 12:18:05 cjb_ie: here in Brazil it's not optional, and I think that's the issue ;-) Sep 04 12:18:28 DPThought: ...so you can parse them out. Sep 04 12:18:40 cjb_ie: yes, you can carrier select in the UK Sep 04 12:18:40 cjb_ie: ah, this one is easy in Brazil: area codes are two digits. Always. Sep 04 12:18:51 well, gtg Sep 04 12:19:27 for example, if i'm in cork city, and i want to dial a cork number, i have to dial just the 7 digit number without the 021 in front - or i (may) get charged for a longer distance call. Sep 04 12:19:33 cjb_ie: you can parse out the country prefix (two digits). I think thats enough. If i dial with area code here in germany it's superflous but you get what you want Sep 04 12:19:45 cjb_ie: i guess this is the same everywhere Sep 04 12:19:49 DPThought: country prefix can be more than two digits. Sep 04 12:20:01 ireland, for example, is 353, finland is 358 Sep 04 12:20:11 cjb_ie: damn. sorry Sep 04 12:20:33 in france area code is mandatory, even for local calls, land line numbers are 10 digits Sep 04 12:20:40 east germany's old code, 37, got re-used and is now ten countries, 370 to 379 Sep 04 12:21:17 oh, so monaco has now the former east german code ;) Sep 04 12:21:35 gamin: just a tenth of it Sep 04 12:21:35 quite a change :-p Sep 04 12:21:49 377, I know Sep 04 12:21:58 gamin: yeah, it used to be +33-628-nnnnn didn't it Sep 04 12:22:10 But is this not a issue solved some centuries ago? I mean this is basic address management stuff. Sep 04 12:22:32 (guess who tried to work out the details of making a portable DTMP app about ten years ago, and decided it was far too horrible) Sep 04 12:22:36 *DTMF Sep 04 12:22:45 cjb_ie: don't know - they all start with 97. now Sep 04 12:23:44 anyway, somebody here using his neo as his daily phone? Sep 04 12:23:46 then you have weird exceptions to rules - like puerto rico, i think, considers +1809 to be its country code - as distinct from +1 with area code 809 Sep 04 12:24:30 gamin: no, because I would have to haul around an extra battery pack and a serial console Sep 04 12:24:47 XorA: lol Sep 04 12:25:06 I thought the biggest problem is the gsmd... Sep 04 12:25:17 and the lack of suspend Sep 04 12:25:45 DPThought: you would hope - but every country solved it in its own way. i thought it was solved for GSM, for everywhere, but cesarb's account of brazil, and my recent experience buying a sim in the uk, show that phone companies (or even regulatory orgs) are more than happy to wilfully break GSM specs. Sep 04 12:26:11 cjb_ie: which UK network BTW? Sep 04 12:26:29 cjb_ie: as Ive never had that trouble with Orange, Vodaphone, T-Mobile and O2 Sep 04 12:26:36 XorA: i can't remember - it was one of the weird "not a real network" resellers. Sep 04 12:26:48 I do not not understand that now that 2000+ phones are out, they spent two weeks on getting the gsmd and the power management done Sep 04 12:26:59 cjb_ie: ah the Virtual Carriers, yeah they can be odd Sep 04 12:27:32 XorA: blue and white on the sim pack, if that helps. my ex has the sim pack, i can ping her for the details. Sep 04 12:27:36 cjb_ie: i mean a way to store numbers in a way where you could always say which part of the number has which function. I expected the +XXYYYYZZZ form to be that. But it seems i was wrong. Maybe +49 (761) 123456? Sep 04 12:27:37 I remember the first press articles talking about the first batch of 5000 phones in December 06... Sep 04 12:28:22 DPThought: it gets worse, because you've got to handle the 'escape' digit too (the 0 on 0761 in your case) Sep 04 12:28:39 finland used to use 9 for that, but has changed to 0. i think spain still uses 9. Sep 04 12:28:42 cjb_ie: nah, not worth it Sep 04 12:28:47 just added DTMF dialing to the wishlist Sep 04 12:29:02 You mean fake noises? Sep 04 12:29:03 cjb_ie: probably some scheme to stop morons running up huge international bills Sep 04 12:29:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Call_Prefix ? Sep 04 12:29:05 Psi: hehe, it's a big hairy can of worms :-) Sep 04 12:29:10 I think Sean, Harald and Mickey should be supposed to use no other cell phone but the neo >:-) Sep 04 12:29:26 cjb_ie: like in UK if you ask for bargain basement contract then they dont allow roaming unless you specifically ask Sep 04 12:29:31 cjb_ie: But this would be just the prefix which you configured for your region Sep 04 12:29:35 plus the CEO of FIC :) Sep 04 12:29:48 DPThought: ...and maybe phone operator (see US) Sep 04 12:29:50 XorA: they typicall do - but at extortionate rates. Sep 04 12:29:54 cjb_ie, heh Sep 04 12:30:06 At least for those I looked at Sep 04 12:30:15 SpeedEvil: no, they tend to disable it for your number, so you have to phone, ask, then you cant deny knowing the rates Sep 04 12:30:25 SpeedEvil: but this is for the dirt dirt cheap contracts Sep 04 12:30:28 cjb_ie: you would not use 0 as the long distance prefix in the us ;) Sep 04 12:30:46 DPThought: 1 would work, on most landlines Sep 04 12:30:58 but not all. Sep 04 12:31:29 about the only good thing about the US phone system is that you can always tell which bit is the area code. Sep 04 12:31:43 sorry, US and Canadian. Sep 04 12:32:07 the only thing good with the UK one is ADSL :-) Sep 04 12:32:08 you can't even tell whether a number is US or canadian without a lookup table for the area codes. Sep 04 12:32:24 The annoying thing about the UK phone network is BT. Sep 04 12:32:33 And their impact on broadband pricing. Sep 04 12:32:49 btplusplus.com? :) Sep 04 12:33:01 cjb_ie: well that would men you have to change this settings more often if you travel through the us than as you would in central europe. should be no problem. :) Sep 04 12:33:05 (they provide the underlying network for the majority of ADSL - as it's extremely expensive to use other providers - which cost 80p/gigabyte) Sep 04 12:33:24 Hence UK ISPs cap. Sep 04 12:34:08 DPThought: but it still means the user has to have local knowledge, which takes a lot of the point out of having a DTMF dialler. Sep 04 12:34:38 making the dialler GPS-aware would help, but wouldn't solve everything. Sep 04 12:35:12 It's possible in border regions to accidentally roam onto the wrong country Sep 04 12:35:18 you'd still need to keep an up-to-date db of how to dial out of every locality and what its area code is. Sep 04 12:35:49 cjb_ie: hey, the gps idea sounds great. Sep 04 12:35:52 and then there's the issue (in some countries) that when people move house, their number may move with them, even out of area. Sep 04 12:36:19 it generally only happens for short distances, but it still 'fuzzifies' the edges of area code areas. Sep 04 12:36:22 Yeah. Though many have national mobile numbers that don't change. Sep 04 12:36:32 many countries Sep 04 12:36:49 the more you look at the can, the more worms come out Sep 04 12:36:51 yup Sep 04 12:36:52 and the uglier they get Sep 04 12:37:05 and on some countries number portability is a requirement by law Sep 04 12:37:12 Finland has operator-based mobile numbers, _but_ if you switch, you can keep your number if you want to Sep 04 12:37:13 so you chnage phone providers and address Sep 04 12:37:14 any news about the quality of the first gta02 phones? ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpt6R4ZNl1w )? Sep 04 12:37:19 and your number follows Sep 04 12:37:22 raster: between operators, but not between localities, i think? Sep 04 12:37:32 cjb_ie: for mobile phones its irrelevant Sep 04 12:37:33 mjr: same in ireland. Sep 04 12:37:43 raster: well yes, but i'm talking about landlines. Sep 04 12:38:00 gamin: When mickeyl used his it released smoke... Sep 04 12:38:17 CM: eww Sep 04 12:38:24 cjb_ie: aaah - even then - it can be very broad Sep 04 12:38:34 i know in .au the 02 area code now covers a whole state Sep 04 12:38:51 and that state isnt the larger ones in .au Sep 04 12:38:58 taking you number is not really the issue. I would say the only issue you have is that you have to know how the number is contructed. (the address book should help you with that) and then you need to know how your carrier likes numbers dialed (long distance and international prefixes) If you have this sorted out, i guess you have no problem Sep 04 12:39:00 nsw is about the size of 3 of 4 us states put together Sep 04 12:39:06 hi raster ... :D Sep 04 12:39:25 now within 02 u'll have 02 8xxx and 02 4xxx etc. Sep 04 12:39:33 4 will be outside sydney Sep 04 12:39:38 but sydney is big Sep 04 12:39:44 DPThought: it's generally not an issue at all for GSM (except for brazil as cesarb points out) - but it's a lot harder for landlines. Sep 04 12:39:49 the original 02 area code that was just sydney is a whole sydney + metro Sep 04 12:39:54 The right solution is probably to break out numbering by cell-ID Sep 04 12:40:01 thats a good 100x100km region Sep 04 12:40:06 Or network-ID Sep 04 12:40:11 or so Sep 04 12:40:20 DPThought: say you're driving down a road in the US and you find a payphone with the local info sheet vandalised - what then? Sep 04 12:40:40 ppayphones? Sep 04 12:40:51 is that like horse and carriage? Sep 04 12:40:53 :) Sep 04 12:41:18 No, it's a device that takes tokens, and provides a voice channel to the PSTN. :) Sep 04 12:41:37 (though many payphones block DTMF from the mouthpiece until you've dialled enough digits for the phone to know how much to charge you) Sep 04 12:41:48 as in, dialled with the keypad Sep 04 12:41:56 raster: AFAIK sydney is geographicall the largest city in the world. Sep 04 12:42:11 Sydney is quite extended. Sep 04 12:42:16 cjb_ie: then you are screwed anyway. Would make no difference if you donkt know what prefix to use or you phone does not know. Sep 04 12:42:17 SpeedEvil: wow! how many goats does it take to power? Sep 04 12:42:18 :) Sep 04 12:42:30 some countries have no area codes at all - denmark for example Sep 04 12:42:39 ebel: it is? Sep 04 12:42:41 like france, but without the initial 0 Sep 04 12:43:00 raster: so I've heard from sydney people. :) Sep 04 12:43:15 wel i know sydney is big Sep 04 12:43:17 and then there's numbers (toll-free, low toll etc) that can only be dialled within a particular country Sep 04 12:43:19 geographically Sep 04 12:43:27 it takes a long time to go form end to end Sep 04 12:43:32 for example in ireland, freephone numbers are outside the standard number plan. Sep 04 12:44:19 you can't store them as +353-1800xxxxxx because that won't work - it'll try to dial a dublin (+3531) number beginning with 800. Sep 04 12:44:59 cjb_ie: omg Sep 04 12:44:59 there really are more exceptions than rules in this game. Sep 04 12:45:08 Same with lots of of non-geographic numbers in ireland. 1890 (?) is local call rate for all area codes Sep 04 12:45:25 lots of exceptions Sep 04 12:45:29 ebel: 1810 up to 1890 are various different reduced rates Sep 04 12:46:04 k Sep 04 12:46:29 in general, the lower the third digit, the cheaper it is. Sep 04 12:46:38 except for 1850, which is a fixed charge per call, regardless of length. Sep 04 12:46:45 so are we done proving area code/number != location yet? Sep 04 12:46:46 so even within the exceptions... there are exceptions Sep 04 12:46:46 :) Sep 04 12:47:22 raster: oh, that wasn't what we were at at all :-) Sep 04 12:47:33 oooooooooh Sep 04 12:47:38 its where we got to Sep 04 12:47:39 :) Sep 04 12:49:02 cjb_ie: does this mean that in reallity there is no working way to organize your phone numbers and dial them automaticly in a universal way? I would have expected that the better phone book apps would have solved this issues. The more you tell about the quirxes the less i belive this would be possible anyway Sep 04 12:49:10 raster: the whole western half of australia has an 08 area code. Sep 04 12:49:25 that's about the size of half the continental united states. Sep 04 12:49:32 (excluding alaska) Sep 04 12:49:38 DPThought: only with a big db in the phone, and then only if that's kept up to date. Sep 04 12:49:55 and even then, it would probably have to automagically update phone numbers in your phone book (though _that_ would be a nice feature) Sep 04 12:50:04 DPThought: dial them in full form Sep 04 12:50:15 DPThought: eg +81 90 8237 8245 Sep 04 12:50:17 raster: except in brazil. scroll up. Sep 04 12:50:21 or +61 413 432 564 Sep 04 12:50:29 cjb_ie: really? Sep 04 12:50:31 in jp0 too Sep 04 12:50:37 they dont do universal dialling with + Sep 04 12:50:48 ooh, another country to add to the sin list Sep 04 12:50:55 rwhitby: i know - but thats WA. not like there's a lot there! :):):) Sep 04 12:51:04 raster: SA too Sep 04 12:51:19 rwhitby: SA is 08 too? Sep 04 12:51:21 raster: sure. But this seems not to work on POTS because your phone needs to know which part of the number is which and add prefixes if needed Sep 04 12:51:23 and yes, the other eight digits aren't going to be used up soon. Sep 04 12:51:31 raster: yep Sep 04 12:51:49 DPThought: has worked for me in every country i have made calls form - except japan Sep 04 12:51:54 never tried in brazil Sep 04 12:51:57 raster: on gsm Sep 04 12:52:02 rwhitby: well thats just silly! Sep 04 12:52:02 :) Sep 04 12:52:31 raster: there is no + sign on your plain old phone ;) Sep 04 12:52:38 reminds me of this funny story how Finland got stuck with a three-digit country code even when we weren't very lagging behind in phone system development; apparently these guys representing got really drunk the night before the conference where these would be decided... Sep 04 12:52:43 rwhitby: thats right - you are in the 'laide - ex moto? Sep 04 12:53:09 raster: I started moto in adl Sep 04 12:53:20 mjr: now thats a worthy story! Sep 04 12:53:20 then fsl Sep 04 12:53:22 mjr: really? i was under the impression that country codes got decided mostly on the basis of how many people, and to a lesser extent how many phones, a country had. Sep 04 12:53:25 is there actually still a windows mobile port for the neo being developed or has that stopped? Sep 04 12:53:31 rwhitby: yeah - then moto canned u all :( Sep 04 12:53:39 raster: 08 is also cocos and christmas island Sep 04 12:53:47 mjr: for example, finland and ireland have roughly the same population, and got 358 and 353 Sep 04 12:54:11 cjb_ie, well, that's what I've heard, don't go ruining a perfectly good anecdote Sep 04 12:54:23 US and canada only got a single-digit code by clubbing together (and boy what a mess that is...) Sep 04 12:54:24 rwhitby: more proof area codes are useless geographically Sep 04 12:54:24 :) Sep 04 12:54:47 US and Canada have the same code? Sep 04 12:54:52 mjr: i prefer the drunk story. Sep 04 12:54:52 mjr: +1 Sep 04 12:54:53 sheesh Sep 04 12:54:56 mjr: yes. Sep 04 12:55:06 mjr: different area codes, same country code Sep 04 12:55:09 yeah I knew US was +1, I didn't know Canada was clumped in there as well Sep 04 12:55:14 raster: the .au numbering plan is documented at http://internet.aca.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=IND_REG_TEL_NUMPOL Sep 04 12:55:16 what a ripoff Sep 04 12:55:16 thus usa is just southern-canadia really Sep 04 12:55:40 rwhitby: i just know if it was outside 02 - it was too far away :) Sep 04 12:55:43 (long ago) Sep 04 12:56:11 usa, canada, australia - all just offshoots of the british empire ;-) Sep 04 12:56:18 mjr: you can't tell which country a +1 number is unless you have a lookup table for area codes. +1-809 is puerto rico, btw, which is also considered an international call from the US. Sep 04 12:56:30 *sigh* Sep 04 12:56:45 well-lobbied, that +1... Sep 04 12:57:29 cjb_ie: I thought puerto rico was part of the USA. Sep 04 12:57:47 ebel: it kind of is, and kind of isn't. Sep 04 12:57:51 (lobbying reminds me, did people know already that OOXML fast-track was disapproved?) Sep 04 12:57:52 Put they have done some sort of deal which screws over the puerto ricans. Sep 04 12:59:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Area_codes_in_Canada Sep 04 13:02:50 and after all that, i was wrong about 809 - it's not puerto rico, it's the dominican republic Sep 04 13:03:41 moo Sep 04 13:04:14 moo Sep 04 13:06:57 mjr : the dodgy iso ? Sep 04 13:07:04 Yes Sep 04 13:07:07 good Sep 04 13:07:48 It's insane to have 6000+ pages specification that includes lines like "handle margins in the same way as word95" Sep 04 13:08:02 roflmao Sep 04 13:08:05 openmoko: 03laforge * r2903 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/smedia-glamo.patch: Sep 04 13:08:05 openmoko: * add a missing 'break' statement resulting in FBIOPUT_VSCREENINFO to always fail Sep 04 13:08:05 openmoko: * indicate that 24/32bpp will never be supported with glamo3362 Sep 04 13:08:09 I wonder who suggested that one Sep 04 13:09:13 CM: what spec? Sep 04 13:09:18 SpeedEvil: ooxml Sep 04 13:09:22 oh Sep 04 13:09:43 oh oh even. Sep 04 13:10:02 and there are _many_ things like that in it Sep 04 13:10:29 and reinvent-the-wheel type of stuff Sep 04 13:10:39 and of course, many things quite unlike that but similarly stupid and/or malicious Sep 04 13:10:51 And ambiguous I suppose. Sep 04 13:10:59 To leave plenty of room for incompatibility. Sep 04 13:11:06 and bugs from the 80's Sep 04 13:11:09 ..."Yeah, here you use windows metafiles but we won't tell you what those are) Sep 04 13:12:38 also, handily by leaving stuff out of the spec itself but just referencing it, they exclude it from their "patent promise" Sep 04 13:19:04 morning all mokomaniacs Sep 04 13:20:36 morn' Sep 04 13:20:54 * * OM Bug 798 has been created by  Sep 04 13:20:55 * * audio driver for GTA02 missing Sep 04 13:20:56 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=798 Sep 04 13:21:39 i'm sorry i missed the numbering plan discussion - lots of urban legend non-sense there. Sep 04 13:22:00 all your number are belong to US Sep 04 13:22:51 actuall 1 was world zone 1 (North American) and 7 was world zone 7 (USSR) Sep 04 13:22:53 * * OM Bug 797 has been created by  Sep 04 13:22:54 * * splash screen / boot menu support for GTA02 missing Sep 04 13:22:55 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=797 Sep 04 13:26:50 howdy Sep 04 13:30:18 hi Sep 04 13:34:40 there is only one sane way i've ever seen to store numbers in gsm in a single field : +xxxxxxxxxxxxx where the number is in standard e.164 international formal and no + for all other cases. Sep 04 13:35:09 although its better two have two fields and indicate the type of number. Sep 04 13:36:00 GSM spec requires that any number dialed with the international format be handled correctly within the country in which the call originates. Sep 04 13:36:12 even if its a local number Sep 04 13:38:25 Writchie: and yet so many carriers are out of spec Sep 04 13:38:50 gsm carriers: name one Sep 04 13:39:11 kpn, vodafone... Sep 04 13:39:26 vodafone UK works fine Sep 04 13:39:29 iirc orange too Sep 04 13:39:41 Orange UK works fine Sep 04 13:39:47 the .nl variants aren;t Sep 04 13:40:06 i've never seen a single gsm carrier fail a call in proper +XXXXXXXXXX format. Sep 04 13:40:12 although, of course, anything is possible Sep 04 13:40:25 this is a very basic low level part of the call setup Sep 04 13:40:28 spend a few days in .nl Sep 04 13:40:34 it essential for roaming Sep 04 13:40:57 no it's not essential for roaming... Sep 04 13:40:58 Vodafone.nl works fine for a Vodafone UK sim Sep 04 13:41:23 the sims work... that has nothing to do with it Sep 04 13:41:39 its essential to meet the require that numbers stored in proper format in your sim work properly when roaming or when in your home network. Sep 04 13:41:57 s/require/requirement/ Sep 04 13:41:58 Writchie meant: its essential to meet the requirement that numbers stored in proper format in your sim work properly when roaming or when in your home network. Sep 04 13:41:58 that doesn;t make it essential Sep 04 13:42:24 it might be "what's suppposed to be the case" Sep 04 13:42:37 but it's not essential by any means for gsm traffic Sep 04 13:43:00 wow? i guess you never spent billions on network equipment Sep 04 13:43:30 if it were essential then it would work everywhere and we wouldn;t be debating it Sep 04 13:44:05 .. and spending billions on network equipment - wtf ... Sep 04 13:44:07 you still haven't given one example of a network failing to meet 24.008 call setup spec Sep 04 13:44:17 I gave you 3 Sep 04 13:44:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/+31 doesn't mention that you can't use +YYxxxx... Sep 04 13:45:18 Writchie: a few screens back, cesarb gave brazil as example, raster gave japan Sep 04 13:46:05 japan is not gsm Sep 04 13:47:52 and apparently brazil is not either if that's true ;) Sep 04 13:48:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Wish_List]] Sep 04 13:48:31 mjr: brazil is mostly gsm. Sep 04 13:48:58 meant that if it's true that they don't support the proper intl. number format Sep 04 13:49:42 and my example from earlier of one of the virtual cellcos in the UK not supporting +nnn - you have to prefix 2, then dial 00 and country code. Sep 04 13:49:52 if "equal access" type dialing is imposed by regulation for every call on a call by case basis then it is effectively a prohibition on automatic dialing. Sep 04 13:51:28 can't way to see what cesarb: reports for type of numbers allowed Sep 04 13:51:28 All this discussion and all these poor people are basically unable to use vCards at all Sep 04 13:52:47 XorA: vCard? Sep 04 13:53:32 Writchie: never sent a vCard SMS? Sep 04 13:53:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCard Sep 04 13:54:02 sure - what does that have to do with dialing Sep 04 13:54:26 XorA: Totally OT, but impressive: http://www.brickfrenzy.com/?m=blackout Sep 04 13:54:27 Writchie: well if none of these networks support +XX NNNNNNNN then vCards are totally useless to those users Sep 04 13:54:46 Writchie: as you can never send them a working number without knowing their network Sep 04 13:55:26 CM: well cool Sep 04 13:55:30 XorA: i got the craziest number formattings in vcards you can imagine. In fact they are useless because (aparently) noone stores his number the right way in his address book Sep 04 13:55:34 the +XXXXXXXXXXXX is the correct format - its all going to work except for a few corner cases of odd-ball non-compliant networks. Sep 04 13:55:53 and of course in the US 99% of the population has no idea what it means Sep 04 13:56:26 it's sad how some people don't even realise these things. my ex goes back and forth between hong kong and ireland and was bemoaning having to dial numbers differently... Sep 04 13:57:03 wow - this probably was solved by gsm in the first place Sep 04 13:57:18 in the early 90's Sep 04 13:57:30 hah. it finally builds :D Sep 04 13:57:37 (specifically, she was bemoaning having to dial numbers differently, _on her gsm phone_ ) Sep 04 13:57:38 riot: YAY Sep 04 13:57:47 then i told her about storing with initial + Sep 04 13:57:55 and i forgot to time it *sigh* Sep 04 13:58:51 i don't get how someone can have a gsm for years and not find out about storing numbers in canonical format Sep 04 13:59:12 Writchie: this is how far we got. GSM is no problem. Use the +xxxxx form and you are fine. But when it comes to dialig on landlines (with DTMF tones) you acre screwed even if you have your number in this format. Because you have to dial the number acording to your local dial plan and therefore yu need to know which part of the number represents the area code and country code Sep 04 13:59:17 cjb_ie: strue Sep 04 13:59:20 true Sep 04 13:59:25 CM: impressive that it's broken ? Sep 04 13:59:30 cjb_ie: Simply because they're still used to land lines who rarely need the conly code Sep 04 13:59:43 DPThought: sounds about right. Sep 04 13:59:48 ScaredyCat: The link? Sep 04 13:59:51 CM: but every received call on GSM shows up in canonical format...! Sep 04 13:59:57 the site at the end of the link Sep 04 14:00:01 To dial locally you have map from canonical form through a dial plan Sep 04 14:00:10 mysql errors everywhere Sep 04 14:00:29 you will still encounter anomolies in many places. Sep 04 14:00:46 cjb_ie: Hmm.. Sure? I never see the country code, only area + number Sep 04 14:01:02 For example, here (AT&T - formally Bell South - formally AT&T ) behaves different call type by call type Sep 04 14:01:07 ScaredyCat: Ah, now it's broken for me too. Worked a minute ago Sep 04 14:01:14 CM: where? Sep 04 14:01:27 local number sometime requires 1NPA and sometimes not Sep 04 14:01:31 cjb_ie: Sweden, gsm only since always Sep 04 14:01:39 Writchie: i think a mandantory formating like +49 (761) 123456 would solve this issue. All you need then is a dial plan. I don't know if this is worth the efford, but it sounds fun to have Sep 04 14:01:56 CM: i've been to sweden lots of times, and used GSM there... Sep 04 14:02:00 ScaredyCat: Try again, worked now Sep 04 14:02:13 cjb_ie: Maybe it depends on the carrier? Sep 04 14:02:17 without the dial plan you may have problems with a required "0" IIRC Sep 04 14:02:23 DPThought: and would denmark then be +46 () 12345678 ? Sep 04 14:02:47 cjb_ie: jup Sep 04 14:02:50 DPThought: you think the user will get it right more often ? Sep 04 14:03:01 Writchie: well, ... :) Sep 04 14:03:03 cjb_ie: It would be sweden.. Sep 04 14:03:06 :) Sep 04 14:03:13 erm, sorry. +45 Sep 04 14:03:26 too many numbers floating around my head Sep 04 14:03:52 in us people using + often forget the 1 and end up going out internationally Sep 04 14:04:20 fortunately, most of them don't know there are countries outside the US and have internationally outbound calls barred (the default for all carriers) Sep 04 14:04:49 the... default? wow. Sep 04 14:05:10 most are thankful at $5.00 a minute Sep 04 14:05:14 stops the tersts you know Sep 04 14:05:19 or per wrong number Sep 04 14:06:01 cjb_ie: the US is a big place; there are many people who have never been in another country -- also many people who have never left the state in which they were born! Sep 04 14:06:30 onlyl 1% of incoming congressman have ever been outside the US Sep 04 14:06:32 * mwester notes that travelling to Canada doesn't really count as international ;-) Sep 04 14:06:44 mwester: right, but having no interest in relating to people outside the US is frightening. Sep 04 14:06:50 They changed area codes in Sweden a few years ago, and suddenly my grandma started getting calls from Kazakhstan, maybe 2-3 per day, usually early in the morning. Took about a month before they fixed that routing problem.. Sep 04 14:06:53 Writchie: i guess when you have three fields for the number in your address book users will probably get it right. the first and second field filled out with default and the curser placed in the middle field Sep 04 14:07:04 http://www.brickfrenzy.com/?m=badger <------CM Sep 04 14:07:08 cjb_ie: Yes. frightening is a good word. Sep 04 14:07:14 CM: they changed which side of the road they drive on - try that in the US? Sep 04 14:07:36 DPThought: the default? Sep 04 14:08:00 ScaredyCat: Hehe Sep 04 14:08:01 cjb_ie: for example the last you used Sep 04 14:08:14 when you sign up international outgoing calls are barred until you enable them with the carrier? Sep 04 14:08:47 DPThought: you need to consider language issues here. Sep 04 14:08:51 DPThought: but, 'filled out with default' - how do you decide what to put in there? Sep 04 14:09:04 DPThought: this is the problem with heavy formatting. Sep 04 14:09:39 you don't fill out any defaults, you don;t stop the user doing whatever they want ... Sep 04 14:09:40 area code, dial code, local prefix, etc. its all very localized terminology for the typical user. Sep 04 14:09:55 and you don't force formating Sep 04 14:10:22 ScaredyCat: so we come back to needing a big database to figure out how to parse numbers. Sep 04 14:10:34 why do you want to parse them? Sep 04 14:10:37 and let's not forget the numbers that can't be expressed in canonical format. Sep 04 14:11:02 ScaredyCat: to figure out how to dial DTMF on landlines. Sep 04 14:11:13 huh ? Sep 04 14:11:43 you want to dial a number then when answered some dtmf? Sep 04 14:12:13 no, hold PDA up to a phone to dial a number Sep 04 14:12:19 cjb_ie, Writchie: yea. Thats true. But is there more than country and area code you need to know? Besides how to name these fields Sep 04 14:12:21 instead of looking it up and dialling it from creen. Sep 04 14:12:22 cjb_ie: the dialing on gsm networks (possibly Brasil excepted) is not problem, all others are need a dialplan Sep 04 14:12:48 Writchie: yeah, GSM's not the problem (except for brazil, and weird virtual operators in the UK) Sep 04 14:12:58 Hello guys =) Sep 04 14:12:59 DPThought: you need to know, for each use of the number, what codes may be required. Sep 04 14:13:28 for example, when setting a call forward, neigher 1 nor NPA can be used or the setup will fail. Sep 04 14:13:44 When dialing, 1 and NPA must be used. Sep 04 14:14:00 Writchie: NPA? Sep 04 14:14:20 Sometimes, there are other issues depending on how inter-lata long distance and intra-lata long distance is handled. Sep 04 14:14:32 NPA is north american numbering plan area Sep 04 14:14:46 its the real name for what most call area code Sep 04 14:15:00 ssh catlitter@at.the.cattery Sep 04 14:15:22 Writchie: i mentioned an example earlier - irish republic is +353, northern ireland is +44-28 - but to dial NI from the republic, you dial 048. otherwise you may pay cross-channel rates. Sep 04 14:16:04 what's the issue with a db ? Sep 04 14:16:06 there are many schemes like this Sep 04 14:16:28 I have a callerid lookup db with ovr 8 million records and it's pretty small .. Sep 04 14:16:36 ScaredyCat: keeping it up to date on peoples' phones as they change Sep 04 14:16:50 cjb_ie: For example, when roaming in China using Hong Kong Smartone (years back) you could bypass the chinese network by using dialing through service codes. Sep 04 14:17:07 cjb_ie: again, i think these are "dial plan" issues. Sep 04 14:17:10 well, they aren't going to have 8 million records to update... and it could be some centralized update Sep 04 14:17:13 like ipkg Sep 04 14:17:42 ipkg update thedialcodedb Sep 04 14:18:15 with a very small database you can reliably extract the true "country code" Sep 04 14:18:17 ...and then what do you do with numbers that aren't (or can't be) stored in canonical format? Sep 04 14:18:28 Writchie: that's true. Sep 04 14:18:29 the you can apply a country specific and carrier specific dialing plan. Sep 04 14:18:36 s/the/then/ Sep 04 14:18:36 Writchie meant: then you can apply a country specific and carrier specific dialing plan. Sep 04 14:18:38 Stupid question, but how do mobile phones currently deal with the situation in southern/northern ireland? Sep 04 14:18:51 the country codes change as well from time to time. Sep 04 14:19:06 wibbit: the cellcos handle it okay, but it's pot luck with landline operators Sep 04 14:19:17 I would have thought it is up to the user to know whether they should be dialing +44-28 or +48. Sep 04 14:19:26 cjb_ie: telcos use the LERG Local Exchange Routing Guide database Sep 04 14:19:28 however, if you have international call barring enabled, you have to dial 048, not 004428 Sep 04 14:19:56 wibbit: why? it's normal practice for gsm users to store numbers in canonical +44 format Sep 04 14:20:04 is it? Sep 04 14:20:20 for anyone who ever roams, certainly. Sep 04 14:20:21 ScaredyCat: I don't think it is, I do, but I know more people that don't than do. Sep 04 14:20:27 else what's the point in storing them in the phone? Sep 04 14:20:31 it started out 99% of gsm users doing it canonically. Sep 04 14:20:38 cjb_ie: I think you'll find that the roaming populous isn't that greate in the UK. Sep 04 14:20:39 most people don;t roam Sep 04 14:20:47 but now is probably closer to 10% Sep 04 14:20:50 * XorA stores all numbers as +XX as does my wife Sep 04 14:21:07 means the incoming call notification works properly as well Sep 04 14:21:17 cjb_ie: if some one phones you on a nokia phone within your country it appears as 077xxxx, or what ever, not as +44xxxxx, Sep 04 14:21:17 Keep in mind that there will be a class of users who will simply want OpenMoko to "do it the same way my does it". Sep 04 14:21:27 wibbit: not here it doesn't. Sep 04 14:21:36 my teenagers store it correctly only because they grew up as expats - few in the US know what the +1xxxxxxxxxx means Sep 04 14:21:44 what part of here are you in? :) Sep 04 14:21:55 lol Sep 04 14:22:04 where is here Sep 04 14:22:05 +353 / .ie Sep 04 14:22:16 cjb_ie: south then Sep 04 14:22:45 there's plenty of people here wander cross-border. i guess eng-scot-wales is a bit more insular :p Sep 04 14:23:14 cjb_ie: swap "insular" for "integrated" Sep 04 14:23:44 you say tomato, ... Sep 04 14:23:50 wibbit: gsm is pretty careful to identify "type of number" Sep 04 14:24:00 swap 'cross the border' for nip accross the border to kneecap a few people; Sep 04 14:24:05 what the user sees is a UI issue Sep 04 14:24:36 the base formats are E.164 number or 'Unknown" or "National" Sep 04 14:24:45 what many phones do to get around the issue is they only look up the last 7 or 8 digits of an incoming call in the user's phonebook Sep 04 14:25:10 I hope not... Sep 04 14:25:30 All I know is, if some one phones me, and they are not in the phone book, it appears as 07xxxx, with no international info Sep 04 14:25:30 although I suppose know ing 2 poeple with the same 8 last digits would be rare Sep 04 14:25:32 so even if you have john stored as 011234567 in your phone book, and it comes in as +35311234567, it still recognises it as john. Sep 04 14:25:45 "type of number" is always specified on gsm calls, either implicitly or explicitly Sep 04 14:25:45 ScaredyCat: i've seen this on several phones. Sep 04 14:27:00 Writchie: so your saying, the only reason it appears as 07xxx is because that is how nokia chooses to display it, however the raw info the phone receives provides international dialing info Sep 04 14:27:03 wibbit: interesting. here (and anywhere i've roamed) it's always in full canonical format. Sep 04 14:27:25 * wibbit runs off and checks his missed calls Sep 04 14:27:40 maybe operators always present CLID in full canonical format to phones that are roaming? Sep 04 14:27:51 wibbit: nokia is displaying it that way because the network gave either a type of number as "National" or "Unknown" Sep 04 14:28:16 Just checked, and all the unknown numbers appear as canonical (07xxx). Sep 04 14:28:18 gsm IIRC ALWAYS labels numbers Sep 04 14:28:20 (and protect the non-roaming users from the ugly details) Sep 04 14:28:30 Writchie: "The network" being the network that the source call is coming from? Sep 04 14:28:48 the gsm network Sep 04 14:29:13 gsm generall interfaces with SS7 for the public network Sep 04 14:29:31 Writchie: that doesn't narrow it down much, however I assume then that you mean the GSM network your connected to? Or are you saying that the entire network globally is all one thing? Sep 04 14:30:15 well, i have 162976 world wide dialing codes if anyone needs them... Sep 04 14:30:31 ScaredyCat: does that include dialling out as well as in? Sep 04 14:30:32 if the call was interworked, it arrives with calling number according to the interface Sep 04 14:30:41 which is generally e.164 numbers Sep 04 14:30:54 area codes cjb_ie Sep 04 14:31:01 the MSC passes this on together with labeling what type of number it is. Sep 04 14:31:05 about 8 million full numbers though Sep 04 14:31:16 and we get it in the phone with a type of number and the number itself. Sep 04 14:31:17 (in additon to dialing codes) Sep 04 14:31:20 area Sep 04 14:31:24 +cc Sep 04 14:31:26 and the MMI presents it - according to whatever Sep 04 14:31:50 the MMI may consider the home area code and home network country etc. Sep 04 14:32:06 but the lower layers just pass it up the stack. Sep 04 14:32:33 basically internation i.e. E.164 is always meaningful - everything else depend Sep 04 14:32:44 Writchie: about ten years back, digifone in ireland was having great difficulty getting caller id to work when it came from eircell and telecom eireann (state cellco and state telco) - for the first year or so, caller id worked only internally within digifone's network - then it mangled it very strangely, showed up with no country code and sometimes no area code, or partial area code. Sep 04 14:33:49 ScaredyCat: those dialling codes, can you send me a copy? I have a bunch of country/regional codes but nowhere near that many Sep 04 14:33:53 eventually they all managed to start playing ball together. couple of years later, you could even send SMS between digifone and eircell phones Sep 04 14:34:15 ScaredyCat: yes please! http somewhere perhaps? Sep 04 14:34:15 sure, lem me take out personal ones. Sep 04 14:34:17 cjb_ie: is has a lot to do with type of switches used by the land operator Sep 04 14:34:26 Don't suppose anyone has a list of MCCs (along with their corresponding country)? Don't want to have to parse the wp page Sep 04 14:35:11 ScaredyCat: personal dialing codes?!? Sep 04 14:35:51 * jgm has been mucking around with a DB containing country and region codes so that it's easy to map numbers to areas, also needed for the low cost calling stuff Sep 04 14:37:45 cjb_ie: I use it for clip/clid lookup.... Sep 04 14:41:26 wibbit: IIRC with GSM, if the call is dialed on the same network using the same type of number and number as received is it supposed to work. Sep 04 14:41:35 in order to support a call back. Sep 04 14:41:53 this is unlike caller ID in the US where you can't return a call Sep 04 14:41:59 unless you program a dial plan Sep 04 14:42:06 Writchie: in which case, there is no requirement to show the international dialing codes. Sep 04 14:42:17 US landlines that is Sep 04 14:43:34 cjb_ie: DPThought: I think the best policy to always store type of number and number Sep 04 14:43:55 jgm: it would be nice to expand the db, possibly with cell id's too Sep 04 14:44:08 Writchie: along with network on which the number was received? Sep 04 14:44:17 In ISDN the number showes on your phone (CLIPS) is more or less only cosmetic. This is not the umber the network uses as the callee itentifier. So i could imagine the CLIPS field is not transformed to a international number. Sep 04 14:45:35 DPThought: let me check here - i think i get an I.164 number on gsm Sep 04 14:45:46 caller id and ANI are different Sep 04 14:49:03 Writchie: someone told me gsm is more or less isdn over air. :) Sep 04 14:49:22 with a speech codec Sep 04 14:49:44 yea, well as much as the tisgnalling gos of course Sep 04 14:49:51 DPThought: I get a full 1NPANXXXXX but it is labeled 129 - ISDN/telephony numbering plan, national/international unknown Sep 04 14:50:34 so the cellco couldn't be arsed configuring things properly? Sep 04 14:50:36 Writchie: i'm not sure that this means. But i bet you do. :) Sep 04 14:51:20 county code - three digit area code, 7 digit local number Sep 04 14:52:11 in the olde days all area codes had 0 or 1 in the middle digit and no exchange prefices where allowed to have 0 or 1 so the switch could always tell. Sep 04 14:53:28 populous areas used 1 as a middle digit for easy rotary dialing and the places we fly over used 0 Sep 04 14:53:52 this is whee 212 312 213 come from. Sep 04 14:54:02 new york, chicago, LA Sep 04 14:54:04 ScaredyCat: trouble is the size. It is already ~600K with just country and region codes Sep 04 14:54:41 (Plus names of countries and regions, which is where the bulk of the space is taken up even after normalising) Sep 04 14:54:42 Writchie: i somehow lost the plot the last minutes. But i guess this means your network sends you a number you could call back internationally? Sep 04 14:55:21 personally i'd be for all numbers being presented in canonical format, so that one can call them back even if one roams in the interim. Sep 04 14:55:23 it will work as long you present the number with the correct type of number i.e. 129 Sep 04 14:55:48 for dialing, the type of number needs to be set correctly. Sep 04 14:56:20 so in the future, the dialing API should always have two fields, type of number and number Sep 04 14:56:24 Writchie: ah, this is where i'm lost. What are this types? (sorry) Sep 04 14:56:42 cjb_ie: one of the other things that I'm playing with related to the DB is the ability to translate any number from 'local' format to full international Sep 04 14:56:48 Writchie: so if you receive, say 1212nnnnnnn marked as a national number, and then fly to mexico - and want to call them back - what then? Sep 04 14:57:09 jgm: _almost_ any number. Sep 04 14:57:40 DPThough: in lower bowels of gsm there are 5 number types, unknown, internation number, national number, network specific number, dedicated acces aka short code Sep 04 14:58:12 Yeah as much as possible (hopefully covering all of the cases that we'd care about with user-visible dialling, anyway) Sep 04 14:58:37 for example in ireland, freephone numbers are outside the geographic number plan. you can't store them as +353-1800xxxxxx because that won't work - it'll try to dial a dublin (+3531) number beginning with 800. Sep 04 14:58:44 at the AT command level, 129 is national/international unknown number, 145 is international number, 161 is national number Sep 04 14:59:53 cjb_ie: depends where that 1 in the number comes from Sep 04 14:59:57 some UK freephone (0800) numbers are accessible from outside UK as +44800, but no irish freephone (1800) numbers are - because essentially dialling +353 gives the same effect as starting with a 0, from inside ireland. Sep 04 15:00:15 DPThought: you use 145 when the number is in the + format = the plus will be ignored in the AT command Sep 04 15:00:16 cjb_ie: is there a list of these "awkward" numbers and conversions on the Wiki somewhere? Sep 04 15:00:30 so someone can tackle those correctly at some point. Sep 04 15:00:34 you use 129 when you don't know if the number is national or international Sep 04 15:00:34 If there are specific rules it wouldn't be hard to build them in (although obviously a pain to maintain) Sep 04 15:00:38 Kero: dunno. i'm just giving edge cases i've picked up over the last n years. Sep 04 15:00:49 cjb_ie: they're wonderful testcases Sep 04 15:01:16 where did you want it sent jgm? Sep 04 15:01:30 jgm: how do you propose to handle a random number, say 012345678? do you guess the country based on other information in the vcard, and then extrapolate? Sep 04 15:01:31 cjb_ie: accessible but not free ;) Sep 04 15:01:33 Writchie: ah. nice feature Sep 04 15:02:07 ScaredyCat: Jim@devzero.net Sep 04 15:02:08 Writchie: and how does the network then handle a 129 number that's been dialed? Sep 04 15:02:17 * CM waits forever for glibc to finish Sep 04 15:02:29 cjb_ie: according to local network rules Sep 04 15:02:53 ScaredyCat: cjb@cjb.ie please? Sep 04 15:03:07 cjb_ie: depends on where it comes from. If you have the local country code plus a (valid) number you should be able to work it out (with the exception of the exceptions, of course ;)) Sep 04 15:03:46 jgm: ...and where do get the country code from? Sep 04 15:03:52 is this a known problem? http://obri.sygroup.ch/neo1973_uboot_sdcard Sep 04 15:04:03 i cant boot from SD Card Sep 04 15:04:58 jgm: though i guess it's reasonable(ish) to assume a number entered will be as dialled in the local country... Sep 04 15:05:07 * SpeedEvil is rather annoyed to discover that much of his work on GTA01 is utterly useless. Sep 04 15:05:08 cjb_ie: yeah I assume you'd get it from gsmd Sep 04 15:05:20 SpeedEvil: how so? Sep 04 15:05:28 If indeed, as implied on the ML, the GPS chip is changing. Sep 04 15:05:35 what? Sep 04 15:05:45 hammerhead to sirf for definite? Sep 04 15:05:51 tis sent jgm / cjb_ie Sep 04 15:05:54 No, nothing definate. Sep 04 15:06:09 Just implications from people who would know. Sep 04 15:06:39 The guy that is on the broadcom/global-locate side saying that their is not one of their chips in GTA02. Sep 04 15:06:55 ScaredyCat: got it, thanks Sep 04 15:07:10 SpeedEvil: you'd still help 2000+ developers, I suppose? Sep 04 15:07:13 ScaredyCat: ditto - cheers Sep 04 15:07:50 Kero: Indeed. But, only the subset that are not satisfied by the existing binary GPS software. Sep 04 15:07:53 SpeedEvil: Open Source issues? Sep 04 15:08:08 oh, i assumed this would be common knowledge. I'm quite sure harald welte told me on the ccc camp the chip will change. Sep 04 15:08:15 how about having all numbers in e164 format? Sep 04 15:08:15 hrrm , does that mean we wont see gps on 01 ? Sep 04 15:08:19 SpeedEvil: oh? i thought the hammerhead didn't work at all as it stood? Sep 04 15:08:27 What binary GPS software would that be, SpeedEvil? If this is true, then OM has little negotiating power to get us the binary library for the hammerhead. Sep 04 15:08:35 It works fine - with the binary - soon-to-be-released driver Sep 04 15:08:36 nibbler_de: nice pipe dream Sep 04 15:08:41 see the mailing list Sep 04 15:08:48 cjb_ie: why? Sep 04 15:08:57 Writchie: open-source issues? Sep 04 15:09:03 cjb_ie: i have 500+ contacts in my phone - all of them e164 Sep 04 15:09:15 for years... Sep 04 15:09:17 nibbler_de: not all numbers can be expressed as such. Sep 04 15:09:31 scroll back to about 11-12 minutes ago Sep 04 15:09:33 nibbler_de: while e164 is prefferred you will often receive numbers from the network labeled as unknown nat/intl Sep 04 15:09:36 IT'S OFFICIAL!!!!! OOXML ISN'T A ISO STANDARD http://www.iso.org/iso/newsandmedia/pressrelease.htm?refid=Ref1070 Sep 04 15:09:50 cjb_ie: which ones can't? short-access-codes? they are not valid internationally anyway Sep 04 15:09:56 Tyrael: Isn't an ISO standard _yet_ Sep 04 15:10:02 * DPThought thows himself in a word Sep 04 15:10:06 Writchie: on inbound calls? that is true Sep 04 15:10:18 nibbler_de: longer freephone numbers, in some countries. Sep 04 15:10:32 Writchie: but then you can just substitute the leading 0 with the cc you get from the gsm mcc Sep 04 15:10:35 but really, scroll back about 60-70 lines. Sep 04 15:10:40 so_solid_moo: Today there was the vote at ISO Sep 04 15:10:51 nibbler_de: its not always a leading zero Sep 04 15:10:59 s/word/sword/ // sorry for my bad typing Sep 04 15:11:00 Tyrael: read the Pr. there is another vote next year. Sep 04 15:11:00 nibbler_de: there isn't always a leading 0. sometimes it's a leading 9. sometimes it's a leading 1. sometimes there's no leading digit at all. Sep 04 15:11:08 Yep, next year! Sep 04 15:11:30 i think the only sane way is to carry through two field, type of number and number Sep 04 15:11:48 we have a year to prevent microsoft vote markets Sep 04 15:11:51 and prefer the international format Sep 04 15:11:52 Writchie: that's a sensible minimum Sep 04 15:11:54 cjb_ie: i rather would say then - let's ignore it and just substitute a leading zero if the user wants and make the leading character(s) user-changable Sep 04 15:12:17 nibbler_de: nah, it'd have to be sensitive to the country the user was in (maybe roamed to) Sep 04 15:12:20 Tyrael: well, until February/March Sep 04 15:12:23 you want to be able to easily create a phonebook entry from an inbound call Sep 04 15:12:43 IIRC the simcard format includes the type of number Sep 04 15:13:01 nibbler_de: you don't want the user to have to change some weird entries deep in the phone menus just because he's roamed to spain (leading 9), the US (leading 1) or denmark (no leading digit) Sep 04 15:13:37 cjb_ie: that depends of the call origin and routing Sep 04 15:13:39 you also want to be able to easily create a phonebook entry from an outbound call, which is often not in E164 format. Sep 04 15:13:57 cjb_ie: you can never be sure how your caller-ids will be prefixed in roaming Sep 04 15:13:58 hi Sep 04 15:14:04 even when you know the country you roam in Sep 04 15:14:12 nibbler_de: depends mostly on what network the phone is on. but if it's already in E164 there's no problem. Sep 04 15:14:36 cjb_ie: depends also how your telco at home handles it Sep 04 15:15:01 roaming is really tricky and mostly not predictable Sep 04 15:15:03 unfortunately, even when the number is a full international E.164 is is sometimes labeled as unknown national/internation Sep 04 15:15:24 nibbler_de: hmm, you mean if a call within home gets forwarded, it may not present as E164 when roaming? Sep 04 15:15:31 SpeedEvil: I really really want the GPS in my P1 to work.. Sep 04 15:15:43 cjb_ie: i'm not even talking about forwarding Sep 04 15:15:43 *within home country Sep 04 15:15:55 for example: Sep 04 15:15:57 nibbler_de: okay, give an example of what might go wrong :) Sep 04 15:16:23 we might need to store some network info related to incoming calls outisde of home area. Sep 04 15:17:23 i.e. "this was a type 129 received on billy-bob's telco in tennessee" ? Sep 04 15:17:37 a gsm operator with ss7 interconnects can see that your mobile that belongs to telco 262-07 in germany roams in network 123-45 in $foreing-country - now they have a local switch there interconnected with that network 123-45 and forward the call to there but do not change the (national) callerid - so you get a call with a local german number in $country-123 Sep 04 15:18:04 then again the operator decides that the channels to that country are all in use and routes it locally Sep 04 15:18:05 nibbler_de: isn't that exactly the example i just gave? Sep 04 15:18:15 your gsm-telco changes the number into e164 format Sep 04 15:18:18 as you are roaming. Sep 04 15:19:11 i'm not even talking about the f#cked up setups you come accross when you have a look at northern american telephone routing. Sep 04 15:19:18 I would suggest that we do the best that we can rather than look at the corner cases and write off the whole thing. Most of the time we should be able to get a number into E164 (if it isn't already) following some basic rules, and that would be a good start Sep 04 15:19:56 nibbler_de: oh, i keep well away from north am phone stuff, it's head-wrecking Sep 04 15:20:01 ;) Sep 04 15:20:22 jgm: you need to explore all the corner cases but it doesn't mean you have to abandon the whole thing. Sep 04 15:20:58 keeping the type of number IMHO makes the most sense. Sep 04 15:21:33 Writchie: can you play that back though? And also bear in mind that most synchronisation systems won't be able to handle an additional field like that... Sep 04 15:21:34 anyway, i need to go away and get some work done today :( but feel free to poke me here or via mail if you want any more nasty edge cases for local dialling / number parsing etc Sep 04 15:22:15 cjb_ie: *g* Sep 04 15:23:54 i'd settle for e.164 working in every case and if you need to map to a special dial plan for brazil or nl then so be it Sep 04 15:24:28 E.164 is required by the gsm specs to work Sep 04 15:24:49 so where it doesn't, this will be a mapping for a non-compliant network. Sep 04 15:25:25 was it any use jgm / cjb_ie Sep 04 15:25:47 * nibbler_de spend a lot of time with numberplans during the last months and came to the conclusion that - for billing (that was why i was looking at them) the best way is to perform a ss7 lookup during call setup to determine the terminating network Sep 04 15:25:55 s/spend/spent/ Sep 04 15:27:53 nibbler_de: be thankful you don't have to determine taxing jurisdictions for third party billed, transit calls Sep 04 15:28:38 Writchie: brr. yup. Sep 04 15:28:50 i just care if the call is free of charge for me or not. Sep 04 15:29:17 its easier to just hack some network Sep 04 15:31:16 .oO(mindnote: add-on for the dialler app to determine the country and region of incoming calls via ss7) Sep 04 15:34:16 nibbler_de: how easy is that to do? It may fit nicely as an extension so that the info would be available for other apps if needed... Sep 04 15:34:53 * * OM Bug 799 has been created by obri(AT)chaostreff.ch Sep 04 15:34:54 * * data abort while reading from SD Cards Sep 04 15:34:55 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=799 Sep 04 15:36:35 wtf Sep 04 15:36:46 jgm: well - depends. we have a SOAP interface to our telco to get that information Sep 04 15:36:49 xs4all just sent me a new adsl modem Sep 04 15:37:17 Hmm... so that would be quite telco-dependent then and there wouldn't be a 'universal' way of obtaining the data? Sep 04 15:37:58 no, which is good ;) Sep 04 15:38:03 (Which is a shame, it would be nice to know the location of someone calling you as well as their number, especially when they are roaming) Sep 04 15:38:33 nibbler_de: not even over ss7 Sep 04 15:38:41 ScaredyCat: Will take a look at that data later on and see what I can do with it, haven't had a chance yet Sep 04 15:38:48 jgm: calling numbers are easily spoofed Sep 04 15:39:14 ScaredyCat: if you have interconnects to all the networks - sure. Sep 04 15:39:58 even if you don;t have all the networks surely those you do interconnect with *should* be passing that info Sep 04 15:40:55 I know we used to get a load or stuff from colt, kpn etc... Sep 04 15:41:01 well - possible - if you find a network that does it for you. Sep 04 15:41:05 Writchie: that is why I was thinking of using ss7 for that, as I would assume that would not be spoofed (otherwise the call would go awry, surely) Sep 04 15:41:35 jgm: unfortunately you can't have a mobile gsm ssp ;) Sep 04 15:41:44 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte GTA02 GPS (was Re: gpsd and AGPS) Sep 04 15:41:46 jgm: are you talking about a gsm network or isdn Sep 04 15:42:03 ss7 is pri Sep 04 15:42:14 ss7 is not pri Sep 04 15:42:18 ss7 can be on anything - not necessarily pri Sep 04 15:42:35 Writchie: gsm (well generic voice but gsm initially) Sep 04 15:42:36 ss7 can be even over gsm ;-) (as in sctp over gprs... *duck*run*) Sep 04 15:43:07 I'm out of my depth in this conversation, just watching for things that could be useful (true origination of calls being one of them) Sep 04 15:43:09 upper layers maybe Sep 04 15:43:10 shorry, should had said usually.. Sep 04 15:43:21 shorry? Sep 04 15:43:47 ss7 packets are different even at the hardware level Sep 04 15:43:58 yes, I kown Sep 04 15:44:00 but i'm reaching back a couple decades here Sep 04 15:44:11 mmm my keys have moved Sep 04 15:44:15 Writchie: well - you have mtp1/2/3, but the interesting thing are the higher-level-protocols Sep 04 15:44:41 such as tcap Sep 04 15:45:02 we'll only have access to what is passed in the gsm call. Sep 04 15:45:17 you'll never get the telco to pass that onto you anyway.. Sep 04 15:45:19 i don't thing we get anything back on the call proceeding messages. Sep 04 15:45:41 and then if its in the over the air, its another matter passing it up the stack to where we can read it Sep 04 15:45:54 i don't even think its in the radio protocols Sep 04 15:46:23 mm... my neo is unhappy Sep 04 15:48:25 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:ChrisLord]] [[Wish_List]] [[Wishlist:Profiles]] Sep 04 15:50:50 * SpeedEvil contemplates ebaying his neo. Sep 04 15:56:18 hi Sep 04 15:56:32 can someone help me with registration? Sep 04 15:56:32 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (gives this link: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ ) Sep 04 15:56:42 registration? Sep 04 15:56:46 yes Sep 04 15:56:56 if i try to send someone private msg its asking me to register Sep 04 15:57:02 where can i register? Sep 04 15:57:06 ahh with freenode ... Sep 04 15:57:09 yup Sep 04 15:57:10 nice_voip: /msg nickserv password password Sep 04 15:57:12 anywere Sep 04 15:57:15 Sigh. Sep 04 15:57:20 hmmm let me try Sep 04 15:57:44 SpeedEvil: didn't you get it as a gift? Sep 04 15:57:55 no Sep 04 15:58:35 i did like that "/msg nice_voip pass pas" Sep 04 15:58:40 still same Sep 04 15:59:05 nice_voip: do /msg nickserv help Sep 04 15:59:18 ok Sep 04 15:59:41 nice_voip: it'll give you more information on registeration and such. Sep 04 15:59:46 /msg nickserv register yourpassword Sep 04 16:00:05 then slaps SpeedEvil Sep 04 16:00:17 s/slaps/slap/ Sep 04 16:00:18 ScaredyCat meant: then slap SpeedEvil Sep 04 16:00:19 thanks guys i got it Sep 04 16:00:30 thanks alot Sep 04 16:00:37 you're welcome Sep 04 16:00:59 unless your a spammer, then we'll hunt you down ;) Sep 04 16:01:20 no no, actually i was trying to register for asterisk channel Sep 04 16:01:25 but no one was responsing me Sep 04 16:01:36 ahh Sep 04 16:01:36 anyways going back Sep 04 16:01:40 nice_voip: its server wide Sep 04 16:01:41 bye Sep 04 16:01:44 grump lot those Sep 04 16:04:18 ooops Sep 04 16:08:15 I want to take pictures with a digicam, the pics should get the current GPS coordinates plus the direction the cam points at to its metadata assigned - subsequently I want to upload the pics to my computer and then into plone which I'd like to use for blogging. The pics should then automatically show up on a map (google maps should do) as some sort of icons on the afore taken GPS cooridinates - digicam direction should also show up in the map. Where Sep 04 16:08:34 Does the Neo have a built-in cam? Sep 04 16:08:40 No. Sep 04 16:08:45 meandtheshell: truncated at 'Where' Sep 04 16:09:13 cjb_ie: ? Sep 04 16:09:28 but it's easy enough to geocode photographs afterwards, given a gps log and something to correlate the timestamps. Sep 04 16:09:46 meandtheshell: your message got chopped at "digicam direction should also show up in the map. Where" Sep 04 16:09:57 hi all Sep 04 16:10:36 jgm / cjb_ie : this bit of sql might be useful too : SELECT *, LENGTH(code) FROM lookup WHERE code = left('441223233', LENGTH(code)) ORDER BY LENGTH(code) DESC LIMIT 1; Sep 04 16:10:46 openstreetmap has a map editing tool, josm, which will correlate photos with a gps track. Sep 04 16:11:03 when is the public release scheduled? Sep 04 16:11:03 ScaredyCat: ah, to select the longest match? Sep 04 16:11:11 I never understood josm... Sep 04 16:11:15 cjb_ie: the rest "Where can I get this package? ;-]" Sep 04 16:11:17 yes cjb_ie Sep 04 16:11:19 alexbodn: probably next august or so. Sep 04 16:11:27 ;) Sep 04 16:11:31 It's not going to be october. Sep 04 16:11:41 nov? Sep 04 16:11:42 meandtheshell: there exist fantastically expensive cameras with gps built in Sep 04 16:11:52 january 3120 Sep 04 16:12:07 cu then ;) Sep 04 16:12:09 but try googling openstreetmap geocode photograph gps Sep 04 16:12:10 alexbodn: there is no way it will release to end users within 6 months Sep 04 16:12:26 cjb_ie: will do Sep 04 16:12:31 electronic problems? Sep 04 16:12:44 The official release date is still October. Sep 04 16:13:01 so unofficial problems :) Sep 04 16:13:02 the 'core developers' seem to have other things to do Sep 04 16:13:08 There is some frustration, because that is basically not going to be met, and we have no other information. Sep 04 16:13:13 meandtheshell: do you specifically want the pics to show up on a web page? Sep 04 16:13:25 you might also take a look into #osm or #geo on oftc.net Sep 04 16:13:49 The core devs need to be tied down, and made to write a line of status information a week. Sep 04 16:14:04 i'm using a dying phone just to save for an openmoko :( Sep 04 16:14:16 didn't sony have a little dongle that had gps+date/time so you could match pics + location Sep 04 16:14:37 iirc it came with software to do it for you Sep 04 16:14:46 well, I just thought of doing a London city walk ... and thereby getting the stuff (pics) on a map like this would be great ... that's the story behind the desire ... Sep 04 16:14:48 You may or may not get GTA01 hardware soon if you order now, that again hasn't been confirmed. Sep 04 16:14:51 yes, but they also have to work Sep 04 16:14:55 SpeedEvil: they need to be tied to desks coding... Sep 04 16:15:09 i understand them as a programmer myself Sep 04 16:15:12 not err giving talks.. ahem /duck /run /hide Sep 04 16:15:19 ScaredyCat: one line a week is not unreasonable. Sep 04 16:15:35 alexbodn: and these are actual paid developers I'm talking about. Sep 04 16:15:48 are they paid? Sep 04 16:16:01 they should ge their money back... Sep 04 16:16:02 The core team are as I understand it FIC employees. Sep 04 16:16:03 They work for FIC now Sep 04 16:16:29 right, so i believe they are working. unfortunately they probably see nothing to announce Sep 04 16:16:43 I thought they were consultants SpeedEvil? Sep 04 16:16:45 openmoko: 03laforge * r2904 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/pcf50633.patch: Sep 04 16:16:45 openmoko: PCF50633 driver: Sep 04 16:16:45 openmoko: * default state of backlight driver is now 50% brightness Sep 04 16:16:45 openmoko: * fix maximum brightness (0x32 instead of 0x10) Sep 04 16:17:05 see comits like that ^^^ Sep 04 16:17:06 "giving talks" -- yeah, I wish we would be the beneficiaries of some of the energy that goes into the talks with a 1-line status update per week... :) Sep 04 16:17:09 fecking useless Sep 04 16:17:20 i don't think it is much resources as management Sep 04 16:17:24 or lack therof Sep 04 16:17:26 when gsmd hangs the kernel... Sep 04 16:17:42 yes.. it's a fecking phone, get the phone working fist Sep 04 16:17:46 first Sep 04 16:18:01 most of them don't think of it as a phone Sep 04 16:18:06 i won't bother. i'm crossing fingers for their success Sep 04 16:18:10 but as a miniature desktop Sep 04 16:18:14 phone? what is this phone you speak of? Sep 04 16:18:20 that happens to have a phone in it. Sep 04 16:18:23 sort of Sep 04 16:18:26 someday Sep 04 16:18:29 oh, you mean my ogg player/GPS unit? :) Sep 04 16:18:32 They will be successful, it's just a question of when, and how much pain. Sep 04 16:18:54 openmoko: 03zecke * r2905 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (ChangeLog src/main.c): Sep 04 16:18:54 openmoko: 2007-09-04 Holger Hans Peter Freyther Sep 04 16:18:54 openmoko: Show the blog entry when selecting a item. This will switch Sep 04 16:18:54 openmoko: the page of the GtkNotebook. Sep 04 16:18:54 openmoko: * src/main.c: Sep 04 16:18:56 openmoko: (feed_selection_changed): Sep 04 16:18:59 juri_: yours does GPS? Sep 04 16:18:59 the when bit is important, if it's too far ahead, we'll all be dead Sep 04 16:19:01 it's a very complex device Sep 04 16:19:10 my n770 just came in Sep 04 16:19:13 mwester: mine does nothing at the moment. Sep 04 16:19:17 mwester: not necessarily, there will be a lot of competition in this area soon Sep 04 16:19:36 it sits in a box, and looks pretty, whilst i am hacking windows/linux printing using remote desktop. :/ Sep 04 16:19:37 n770 + candie bar is same volume just about as neo Sep 04 16:19:38 Competition is good :-) Sep 04 16:19:40 hopefully jgm Sep 04 16:19:50 * wibbit sniggers at all the confusion regarding the Neo1973's "phone" status Sep 04 16:19:50 mwester: not if you don't have something to compete with Sep 04 16:20:43 jgm: ah, but the sudden threat of competition is what makes a leader rise up, and others rally behind said leader -- which IMO is one of the things lacking on this project. Sep 04 16:20:48 it'll be competing with my nanobot supercomputer pocket edition if it takes much longer Sep 04 16:21:08 mwester: people who are not motivated by money do not fear competition. Sep 04 16:21:09 hehe Sep 04 16:21:11 bye friends :) Sep 04 16:21:21 mwester: it's a bloody business not a race... Sep 04 16:21:24 <|Lynx> is it really so bad? Sep 04 16:21:44 (script) openmoko-community: Harald Welte Re: Lipstick on a fetus Sep 04 16:21:52 it's just frustrating |Lynx Sep 04 16:21:58 There's not so much difference between a successful high-tech business, and a race, IMO Sep 04 16:22:15 okay, even if you're not motivated by money, competition can be a big motivating factor Sep 04 16:22:24 yes Sep 04 16:23:10 From the impassioned comments made on the blogs by the core folk, I have to believe that they will be motivated. Perhaps they are just tired right now. Sep 04 16:23:12 is you're not motivated by the money, you should at least be motivated by 'being the first' and 'doing it well' Sep 04 16:23:22 mwester: In some ways yes, but it's a lot easier to set all sorts of "finishing posts" on a race, the end point on the business is easy, the balance sheet. Sep 04 16:24:05 holy crap! we got signal! Sep 04 16:24:15 4 bars Sep 04 16:24:42 <|Lynx> ^^ Sep 04 16:24:47 .. Sep 04 16:24:47 <|Lynx> no kidding? Sep 04 16:24:52 there are going to be lots of linux phones with various degrees of openness - there is already competition. Sep 04 16:24:57 we get ring! Sep 04 16:25:19 In many ways the competition is irrelevant to FIC. Sep 04 16:25:22 we can has talk Sep 04 16:25:29 hello moko Sep 04 16:25:37 If it succeeds, then any open OS will work for them. Sep 04 16:25:41 FIC != openmoko.com != openmoko.org Sep 04 16:26:05 * ScaredyCat has first real call Sep 04 16:26:10 I know. My point was they don't much care if it's OM, or whatever, as long as they can sell phones iwht it on Sep 04 16:26:20 with real voice sounds and everything Sep 04 16:26:45 SpeedEvil: i'm sure Wang feels that way. Sep 04 16:27:07 to FIC ten thousands phones is nothing but a waste of time. Sep 04 16:27:09 <|Lynx> hmm Sep 04 16:27:12 <|Lynx> nice ScaredyCat Sep 04 16:27:28 I bet it crashes on the 2nd call Sep 04 16:27:43 <|Lynx> i bet one beer it doesn not ^^ Sep 04 16:28:13 mmm..b e e r Sep 04 16:28:24 I owe you 1 beer Sep 04 16:28:33 <|Lynx> nice :9 Sep 04 16:28:37 duble or quits? Sep 04 16:28:40 double Sep 04 16:28:54 The economics are still such that you need to run at least 20K phones a month to make economic sense Sep 04 16:29:05 and that is small scale Sep 04 16:29:05 <|Lynx> double Sep 04 16:29:18 <|Lynx> hmm Sep 04 16:29:31 suck my balls and spank me daily... Sep 04 16:29:32 <|Lynx> ok how may geek kids are outside ? Sep 04 16:29:38 I owe you 2 beers Sep 04 16:29:48 <|Lynx> hmm Sep 04 16:29:49 <|Lynx> ok Sep 04 16:30:00 3 calls all worked. Sep 04 16:30:08 2 x manual dial Sep 04 16:30:16 <|Lynx> try 3 more Sep 04 16:30:21 1 x call history Sep 04 16:30:34 hey, I'm roaming, this is costing a fortune Sep 04 16:31:03 <|Lynx> or 2 5 is the number of total chaos Sep 04 16:31:10 SpeedEvil: the latest GTA02 board had to have been laid out weeks ago. Sep 04 16:31:15 <|Lynx> just kidding ^^ Sep 04 16:31:32 they know full well what GPS chip unless it on an FPC Sep 04 16:32:04 unless it was laid out dual implant, but that can waste space Sep 04 16:32:16 there were references to "changes due to unavailable of parts" a couple of months back Sep 04 16:32:21 and even then with bom leadtimes they'd still have had to know weeks in advance. Sep 04 16:32:30 although in these volumes that seems a bit strange Sep 04 16:32:45 <|Lynx> hmm Sep 04 16:33:00 <|Lynx> is gps working well till now? Sep 04 16:34:00 no Sep 04 16:34:59 caller id not passed out :( Sep 04 16:35:10 <|Lynx> hmm Sep 04 16:35:24 <|Lynx> how many calls it stands still ? Sep 04 16:35:30 prolly roaming stuff../. Sep 04 16:35:35 8 calls.. Sep 04 16:35:38 still going Sep 04 16:35:50 wow, calling actually working? Sep 04 16:35:51 although it seems to think outgoing calls are 'missed; Sep 04 16:35:55 <|Lynx> hmm sounds good Sep 04 16:35:56 ScaredyCat: Nice. Your own image? Sep 04 16:36:03 yes... :) Sep 04 16:36:09 * CM cheers Sep 04 16:36:11 always :P Sep 04 16:36:16 Hehe Sep 04 16:36:24 it wasn;t happy at first... Sep 04 16:36:31 crashed a couple of times Sep 04 16:36:37 (panel) Sep 04 16:36:42 I've had problems getting the right kernel from the makefile. Seems like my modules are out fo sync Sep 04 16:36:42 hmm.. i just thought.. the gta01-device once replaced through a gta2 or even gta3 makes a FINE robot-brain.. Sep 04 16:36:50 Yes, my panel crashes all the time too Sep 04 16:37:07 xkill: It does :) Sep 04 16:39:20 :q! Sep 04 16:40:38 schweet... calling from contacts Sep 04 16:42:27 Good mail: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/009997.html Sep 04 16:42:59 Not sure it's good news, but Harald seem to be realistic, even if mickeyl calls him pessimistic ;) Sep 04 16:43:51 It misses off key info. Sep 04 16:44:06 CM: kind-of. There is still a massive "we have all these things to do" vibe going on, whereas if they could get some of the basics working (you know, calling and the like) then the community would start to build on that. At current the community is doing little because there is little for them to start with Sep 04 16:44:13 openmoko: 03laforge * r2906 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: GTA02: enable pcf50633 backlight support, enable vibrator support. Sep 04 16:44:13 I would love to know why the title is Lipsick on a fetus Sep 04 16:44:35 jgm: That's true. I'd really want to play around with gps Sep 04 16:45:10 cb22: My guess is that he means OpenMoko is way too "early" to look good already Sep 04 16:45:26 ah, right Sep 04 16:45:48 And yet it does look quite good, a lot of work put into kinetic scrolling and other absolute essentials Sep 04 16:45:49 i still got a weird look when my friend just saw firefox's title bar :/ Sep 04 16:46:19 But I agree with jgm, it would be nice if the base libs worked enough for developers more interested in making applications instead of low-level libs Sep 04 16:47:02 And I note the recent emails from Harald don't say if it's even concievable it will release in Oct. Sep 04 16:47:11 there's an issue with building anything, and then having the rug pulled out from under you when they do somehting like shift from .1 to .2 Sep 04 16:47:34 SpeedEvil: If GTA02 is out in October I'll buy Duke Nukem also.. Sep 04 16:47:43 A 1-line summary per dev per week... Sep 04 16:47:50 if it's out in october - I'll buy it for you Sep 04 16:47:54 Hehe Sep 04 16:48:06 ScaredyCat: Duke Nukem has been out for yonks :) Sep 04 16:48:07 duke nukem that is Sep 04 16:48:14 forever :) Sep 04 16:48:18 lol Sep 04 16:48:20 ScaredyCat: Unless you mean duke nukem forever :p Sep 04 16:48:23 yes Sep 04 16:48:28 that's the one Sep 04 16:48:35 yup, it's been out "for like, ever" Sep 04 16:49:25 they changed it's title then ;) Sep 04 16:50:26 Hehe.. "It is infamous for its protracted development schedule, which began in April 1997." Sep 04 16:50:47 I had to check exactly when they did start.. Damn, 10.5 years ago Sep 04 16:50:56 That's slower than OpenMoko! Sep 04 16:51:11 lol Sep 04 16:51:21 slowomoko Sep 04 16:51:44 hmm, tactle feedback would be a nice thing to have Sep 04 16:51:57 * ScaredyCat hits cb22 Sep 04 16:51:57 ie, you tap the screen and it vibrates Sep 04 16:52:00 like that? Sep 04 16:52:19 "I'd tap that" Sep 04 16:52:20 kinda, except i havent tapped the screen yet :p Sep 04 16:53:03 would get annoying if you were typing a name Sep 04 16:53:30 seems a bit POKE 23609 to me Sep 04 16:54:21 yes, but vibration is so much cooler then beeping Sep 04 16:55:31 cb22: My W660 vibrates when you move around in the menues and that's just annoying Sep 04 16:55:52 ah well Sep 04 16:55:54 each to his own Sep 04 16:56:20 Sure. And it's different since the buttons on the w660 have tactile feedback built in :) Sep 04 16:57:00 do you think abiword would run ok on the neo? Sep 04 16:57:32 * CM thinks so Sep 04 16:59:36 to quiver each time you tap costs mor energy then to beep i would assume Sep 04 16:59:59 that sounds so... wrong Sep 04 17:00:00 moving parts -> bad Sep 04 17:00:47 * CM agrees with DPThought Sep 04 17:02:22 so that rules out beep vibrate and flash then :( Sep 04 17:03:13 I turn off the beeps on keypress Sep 04 17:03:32 I only want noises on errors, notifications and calls... ditto for vibrate Sep 04 17:03:47 openmoko: 03laforge * r2907 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (9 files): Sep 04 17:03:47 openmoko: patchset reorganization, no actual code changes: Sep 04 17:03:47 openmoko: * merge pcf50606_fix into pcf50606 main patch Sep 04 17:03:47 openmoko: * merge pcf50633_fix into pcf50633 main patch Sep 04 17:03:47 openmoko: * merge tsl256x_fix into tsl256x main patch Sep 04 17:03:47 openmoko: * merge tune-touchscreen into gta01 main patch Sep 04 17:03:51 openmoko: * shuffle patch order around to keep the end of the patchset to patches under flux Sep 04 17:05:45 openmoko: 03laforge * r2908 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: merge touchscreen jitter fix from gta01 arch code into gta02 Sep 04 17:07:16 * SpeedEvil smiles at all the nice patches. Sep 04 17:10:14 patches are good. i'v got over 7000 lines to break into "simple patches" for the xrdp folks, however. :/ Sep 04 17:10:33 cjb_ie: does not suprise me. *g* I had to choose from three words which all mean the same. And all sounded wrong. :) Sep 04 17:15:07 SpeedEvil: how does the sirf compare with the hammerhead Sep 04 17:33:24 hi there Sep 04 17:33:44 how can i enable my internet connection within qemu? Sep 04 17:37:25 hey Sep 04 17:37:49 I have a feeling that the mouse is not quite right in my qemu emulation Sep 04 17:37:49 ho Sep 04 17:38:10 edistar: read this: http://onlinedev.blogspot.com/2007/08/calibrating-openmoko-v20072.html Sep 04 17:38:29 serenity: cool, thx Sep 04 17:41:23 Writchie: broad performance is similar. Sep 04 17:41:48 Writchie: the low-level stuff is basically totally inacessible. Sep 04 17:41:57 bummer Sep 04 17:41:58 Which means a few things are less, or not possible, Sep 04 17:44:07 SpeedEvil: is the gl chip on some kind of module? Sep 04 17:45:13 Writchie: No. Sep 04 17:45:26 The antenna is a seperate module - the GL chip is on the PCB Sep 04 17:45:41 So there must be several variants of GTA02 Sep 04 17:45:50 then production of GT02 hardly seems to be something ready for October Sep 04 17:47:44 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Quicksand]] [[Bootloader/ru]] [[OpenMoko2007.2]] [[User:Alessandro]] [[OpenMoko]] [[Main_Page]] [[FAQ/ru]] [[User:ChrisLord]] [[Main_Page/ru]] Sep 04 18:00:47 Writchie|lunch: but I need one!! Sep 04 18:01:27 SpeedEvil: Several variants of GTA02? What are you talking about? Sep 04 18:02:17 ahh crud Sep 04 18:02:35 openmoko: 03laforge * r2909 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/pcf50633.patch: Sep 04 18:02:35 openmoko: pcf50633: Sep 04 18:02:35 openmoko: * move initialization order to prevent irq happening before input device exists Sep 04 18:02:35 openmoko: * bluetooth power management for GTA02v2 Sep 04 18:02:35 openmoko: * properly unregister gta02 specific pm sibling devices Sep 04 18:02:45 edistar: & serenity: why isn't qemu calibrated the same way the real neo is? Sep 04 18:03:30 hozer: I'm not sure, but maybe it's because of the screen orientation? Sep 04 18:05:53 can all of you take a look at !bug 774 Sep 04 18:06:40 !ombug 774 Sep 04 18:06:42 * * Bug 774, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown Sep 04 18:06:43 * * hozer(AT)hozed.org: qemu mouse/pointer input unreliable Sep 04 18:06:44 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=774 Sep 04 18:07:23 hozer: even when I calibrated the screen, I still didn't get the clicks to register correctly. i thought thats a known issue but im not a 100% sure. Sep 04 18:07:51 openmoko: 03laforge * r2910 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: Make sure audio driver fails gracefully on GTA02 Sep 04 18:08:40 stefan: GTA02v1/GTA02v2 Sep 04 18:09:18 LaF0rge: Nice work :) Sep 04 18:10:12 hozer: looks like you've got a duplicate of bug 736 there Sep 04 18:11:39 yep Sep 04 18:11:50 so how the heck do I set those as duplicates? Sep 04 18:12:13 LaF0rge: hmm, from the context I thought he would refer to different final versions. Should be clear that we have prototypes before the final one. Anyway, if somebody gets this wrong I will clarify it. Sep 04 18:12:33 * hozer figures it out Sep 04 18:15:57 * hozer wonders why psyco quit working Sep 04 18:16:01 NOTE: Psyco JIT Compiler (http://psyco.sf.net) not available. Install it to increase performance. Sep 04 18:16:58 if i install it in me will it help ? Sep 04 18:18:17 openmoko: 03laforge * r2911 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: kernel uses printk, I should know that ;) Sep 04 18:32:06 stefan_schmidt: I was commenting on: Laforges 'Just to clarify this: We have both GTA02 prototypes with GL/Broadcom Sep 04 18:32:06 and with a a competing firmware-based AGPS solution.' Sep 04 18:32:18 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/009994.html Sep 04 18:32:52 Which I assumed to mean that there must be several hardware candidate versions for GTA02 Sep 04 18:33:00 hozer: what platform are you on? Sep 04 18:33:33 The released GTA02 that is Sep 04 18:34:01 SpeedEvil: Ah, that one. But the candidates don't differ that much and of course for the final version we settle for one chip. Sep 04 18:34:20 SpeedEvil: No, really one final version for GTA02 Sep 04 18:34:44 I wasn't meaning there would be different models released. Sep 04 18:35:54 SpeedEvil: Fine, then I just misread you. Sep 04 18:36:32 ferric: debian etch Sep 04 18:36:55 hozer: should be apt-get psyco Sep 04 18:37:41 it used to work.. ii python-psyco 1.5.1-3 Sep 04 18:37:44 it's installed Sep 04 18:41:04 (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" Re: Lipstick on a fetus Sep 04 18:41:08 ScaredyCat: I just tried your build.. Hmm.. Soso.. Sep 04 18:41:34 ScaredyCat: The terminal was broken, and when I tried to close it the whole gui locked up ;) Sep 04 18:46:26 hozer: oh - weird. Sep 04 18:52:14 hozer: maybe the binary moved or something? Sep 04 18:53:35 bmidgley2: is BlueZ still glib based and do you know if plans to remove dependency on glib are still in the works? Sep 04 18:58:26 i just did a "make openmoko-devel-image" to get the dev version. What must be done when it's finished? Sep 04 19:00:08 serenity: what do you want to do with it? Sep 04 19:00:32 jgm: getting into it Sep 04 19:00:41 On the physical 'phone or in emulation? Sep 04 19:00:46 emulation Sep 04 19:00:53 make flash-qemu-local Sep 04 19:00:55 make run-qemu Sep 04 19:01:18 ok, so i got it right Sep 04 19:01:26 thanks jgm Sep 04 19:13:03 moo Sep 04 19:16:08 webkit takes sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long Sep 04 19:16:46 which browser(technology) will be included in openmoko? Sep 04 19:17:58 solely based on magic Sep 04 19:20:45 hermetic magic, or that based on goat entrails? Sep 04 19:21:14 zecke: so i will need some fairy dust Sep 04 19:21:25 SpeedEvil: did you ever get the power draw under 30mA ? Sep 04 19:21:41 cw666: under 100uA Sep 04 19:21:55 cw666: send modem at@poff to power it off Sep 04 19:22:00 serenity: a portion of fairy dust+LSD will be shipped with GTAv03 Sep 04 19:22:04 cw666: turn 'amp-mode' to 'off' Sep 04 19:22:46 zecke: and an included cam to take pics of yourself in that state Sep 04 19:23:10 SpeedEvil: yeah, i need the modem on though, or else it's not a very useful phone to me Sep 04 19:23:26 SpeedEvil: the amp mode i wonder about, i was using alsamixer there, is that all i need to do? Sep 04 19:23:34 cw666: well - the wakeup on ring isn't implemented Sep 04 19:23:57 At least not as I understand it Sep 04 19:24:08 SpeedEvil: hmm... it probably isn't, it never seemed to work Sep 04 19:24:17 i thought it was just support to poke EXTINT or something Sep 04 19:24:24 the button presses seem to wake the device Sep 04 19:32:54 i think my neo has a hardware fault, it died without me flashing it or anything Sep 04 19:33:05 died how? Sep 04 19:33:15 well, i had it plugged into my windows box Sep 04 19:33:27 and i was trying to get the usb network driver working Sep 04 19:33:38 no joy though, but i left it in charging up Sep 04 19:33:46 being plugged in does not mean charging Sep 04 19:33:59 it has to be enumerated as a USB device, in the default condition. Sep 04 19:34:00 after a few hours it just rebooted its self, and now it only turns on sometimes Sep 04 19:34:06 and resets its self after a while Sep 04 19:34:10 just pugging it in without drivers won't doo it Sep 04 19:34:31 hmm so it could just be a flat battery? Sep 04 19:34:34 At least - won't charge faster than it discharges Sep 04 19:34:35 yes Sep 04 19:34:40 PM is broken at the moment. Sep 04 19:34:41 bitplane: at the present time you need a linux box Sep 04 19:34:42 Well Sep 04 19:34:45 not constructed Sep 04 19:34:49 rather than broken Sep 04 19:34:50 yeah i have linux on my laptop Sep 04 19:34:54 bitplane: that may change in a few days Sep 04 19:35:05 im pretty sure i plugged it into my laptop (which did charge it according to the gui) Sep 04 19:35:36 i'll try that again anyway, thanks Sep 04 19:37:31 writchie, you mean we'll be able to do development in windows? Sep 04 19:37:45 bitplane: not for a long time. Sep 04 19:38:10 i'm quite new to linux, and setting up my linux install for development was too much hassle Sep 04 19:38:15 but the networking will work Sep 04 19:38:30 it would be a lot nicer if there was gcc on the phone Sep 04 19:38:40 then i could just ssh in and build things Sep 04 19:38:43 is that realistic? Sep 04 19:38:44 bitplane: at this point linux system is prerequisite hardware Sep 04 19:39:07 well the build takes 12 gigs of disk space. Sep 04 19:39:25 this is a cross development environment and will be for quite some time. Sep 04 19:39:25 yeah thats also a problem :/ Sep 04 19:39:40 12 gigs is lots Sep 04 19:39:52 it's not so bad ;) Sep 04 19:39:53 lots for linux - nothing in real life Sep 04 19:40:06 shoot, 1 360gb drive is < $100 Sep 04 19:40:12 well its lots on my 80gb laptop hard drive Sep 04 19:40:14 most other manufacturer's codebases are >20GB Sep 04 19:40:19 which is already partitioned for windows and linux Sep 04 19:40:29 and has lots of svn repositories on both Sep 04 19:40:51 well i'll bet they don't have the kitchen sink like ours does ;) Sep 04 19:41:00 Writchie: they sure do Sep 04 19:41:12 Writchie: and not a drop GPLd, so it's also the reinvented wheel Sep 04 19:41:17 well windows i got all the dx sdk and all kinds of graphics tools Sep 04 19:41:36 i could just about squeeze the openmoko dev platform on my linux partition Sep 04 19:41:42 if i could get apt for suse working Sep 04 19:42:06 bitplane: you could possibly make a loop-mounted file on the windows partition ;-) Sep 04 19:42:09 and use it from linux Sep 04 19:42:38 better bet is probably just a usb drive. Sep 04 19:42:41 hehe no space on windows partition either :/ Sep 04 19:43:04 and this windows box has wikipedia running under lamp Sep 04 19:43:07 urgh. usb is going to blow... but yeah, it's next best Sep 04 19:43:10 not much space here Sep 04 19:43:20 usb2.0 is not bad Sep 04 19:43:28 or an ieee1394 Sep 04 19:43:36 hmm yeah tahts not a bad idea Sep 04 19:43:46 usb2.0 usually works even for booting out of the box Sep 04 19:44:11 if not boot is using grub from a live CD Sep 04 19:44:30 it's just that touching lots of small files, as compilation does, is a hassle on removable media Sep 04 19:44:43 or move some of the pOrn to DVD ;) Sep 04 19:44:50 haha Sep 04 19:45:19 haha Sep 04 19:47:22 hmm well i've got it plugged in now but it still wont turn on Sep 04 19:47:49 it charges while off right?! Sep 04 19:47:57 only at 40ma Sep 04 19:48:12 which takes a couple hours to get to where you can boot Sep 04 19:48:18 sweet Sep 04 19:48:24 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Quicksand]] [[Manually_using_GPRS]] [[Wishlist:Games]] Sep 04 19:48:30 but unless it enumerates it will quickly drain the battery Sep 04 19:48:44 i'll be begging for help in here again in another few hours then, hopefully ;) Sep 04 19:49:20 if you can't enumerate with a Linux box, you can expect problems. Sep 04 19:49:45 because you can't talk to the u-boot Sep 04 19:49:58 i got that far when i first got it Sep 04 19:50:05 i had it plugged in, installed some apps in user space and stuff Sep 04 19:50:20 installed from where? Sep 04 19:50:31 linux box? Sep 04 19:50:34 erm the official download site Sep 04 19:50:44 yeah from my laptop Sep 04 19:50:54 laptop running linux? Sep 04 19:50:56 yea Sep 04 19:51:01 that's fine. Sep 04 19:51:13 got the networking working and ssh and stuff Sep 04 19:52:01 you can change the u-boot environment to add a mode where it won't timeout and will charge in so-called fast charge mode. Sep 04 19:52:21 kristian-m, Hi are you there? Sep 04 19:52:52 hmm is that safe? i didn't want to play with uboot too much since i dont have the debug board and stuff Sep 04 19:53:21 bitplane: its easy to screw up Sep 04 19:53:53 if you do a nand erase instead of nand erase rootfs then you make a brick Sep 04 19:54:07 ouch Sep 04 19:54:28 best bet is charge from you linux laptop for a while. Sep 04 19:54:37 or boot a live cd and do it from that Sep 04 19:54:56 can i check to see if its charging somehow? Sep 04 19:55:07 in a few days or weeks there will be another u-boot and hopefull well tested. Sep 04 19:55:40 without making a special cable - you need the shell and look at the values for voltage and current - see the wiki Sep 04 19:56:04 cool thanks Sep 04 20:12:33 Writchie that is a good question for #bluez (as far as I know there is new code being written that uses glib) Sep 04 20:27:44 moin Sep 04 20:28:38 say, ipkg update againsg buildhost.openmoko.org does not wort? Sep 04 20:33:28 can anyone of you ipkg update against builthost? Sep 04 20:35:36 hhf423 it failed for me earlier Sep 04 20:44:44 zedstar: ok, so its probably still broken Sep 04 20:45:47 can someone but the channel into conference mode? Sep 04 20:45:53 * * OM Bug 800 has been created by stefan(AT)openmoko.org Sep 04 20:45:54 * * Integrate SCM commits with bugzilla entries for closing and updating bugs Sep 04 20:45:55 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=800 Sep 04 20:46:00 hff423 i guess... ive done it once only on my device and tried today and it failed to connect Sep 04 20:46:40 which error code? Sep 04 20:46:57 ScaredyCat: I've managed a call with voice with your image! Sep 04 20:47:03 :) Sep 04 20:47:14 me too :D Sep 04 20:47:14 hhff423: givus a sec ill boot it up and do it now Sep 04 20:47:19 ScaredyCat: Tried to get Monkey Island working too, but couldn't get past the stupid input of codes.. Sep 04 20:47:30 input of codes? Sep 04 20:47:39 And Beneath a Steel Sky didn't work either.. How do you "use" things? Sep 04 20:47:44 I has no input of codes. Sep 04 20:47:47 CM: there are hacked version available without that Sep 04 20:47:52 ops Sep 04 20:47:57 :P Sep 04 20:48:05 DPThought: I assumed so, just didn't look hard enough.. ;-) Sep 04 20:48:18 ScaredyCat: Anyway, what's up with the terminal on the image? Sep 04 20:48:26 ? Sep 04 20:48:34 xf86dgaproto_2.0.2.bb isn't building :( Sep 04 20:48:39 Btw, is it possible to "unload" an image from the neo to disk? Sep 04 20:48:47 zedstar: ok, let me know when it should work Sep 04 20:48:47 Would be a great way to take a back up Sep 04 20:49:01 ScaredyCat: The terminal says "vte error" or something like that Sep 04 20:49:04 Beneath a Steel Sky needs right klick. This would be more of a problem. The nokia770 build used one of the keys as modifier. worked quite well Sep 04 20:49:08 And I can't type into it Sep 04 20:49:33 DPThought: Ok. Too bad the neo doesn't have any spare keys.. Sep 04 20:49:36 :-/ Sep 04 20:49:42 odd... works for me.... Sep 04 20:49:56 CM: you talking about openmoko-terminal2? Sep 04 20:50:11 mrxvt ? Sep 04 20:50:13 hhf423: im getting wget: server returned error 404: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found errors Sep 04 20:50:28 checked the url zedstar ? Sep 04 20:50:32 CM: absolutely! one simple modifier key would have improved the ui Sep 04 20:50:46 is the server down (yet) again Sep 04 20:50:50 DPThought: Yes, 2 is not enough! Sep 04 20:50:52 zedstar: yeah, same here Sep 04 20:51:04 hhf423: Yes, but in a version from yesterday Sep 04 20:51:04 CM: maye you can hijack the home key. Sep 04 20:51:17 CM : click use then the object then the target Sep 04 20:51:30 ive not checked the url Sep 04 20:51:54 Hmm.. Sep 04 20:52:19 CM: the version from yesterday is better than from the day before but still does not really work Sep 04 20:52:41 hhf423: I need to get my routing working so I can use ipkg update Sep 04 20:52:46 on my images hhf423? Sep 04 20:53:21 CM: same problem here :) Sep 04 20:53:28 CM: i hoped that it would maybe work today but now buildhost is broken Sep 04 20:53:31 CM: did not update for weeks Sep 04 20:53:49 ScaredyCat: no, buildhost images Sep 04 20:53:50 hhf423 it worked for yesterday i think i did it Sep 04 20:54:25 all hat money on new servers... :P Sep 04 20:54:29 that Sep 04 20:54:42 ScaredyCat: Your image starts the terminal, but it doesn't work ;) Sep 04 20:54:48 zedstar: yes buildhost was working yeterday Sep 04 20:55:37 * ScaredyCat suspects a wetware interface error Sep 04 20:55:47 ScaredyCat: :P Sep 04 20:55:55 I'll give it another try.. Sep 04 20:56:40 ScaredyCat: Says *** VTE ***: Failed to load termi... Sep 04 20:56:57 which one are you using Sep 04 20:57:00 someone call the manager on duty for buildhost and open a severity one ticket! Sep 04 20:57:13 the one in the 'applications' list? Sep 04 20:57:25 ScaredyCat: Yes Sep 04 20:57:29 It's borked? Sep 04 20:57:59 i'm using it now Sep 04 20:58:07 critical production system down, multiple user/customers affected! Sep 04 20:58:37 CM: ScaredyCat, it is borked by default Sep 04 20:59:20 ScaredyCat: Weird.. Have you done some ipkg update or so? Sep 04 20:59:27 I haven't changed anything to the image Sep 04 21:04:03 So what's up with buildhost again? Sep 04 21:06:18 no no updates... I flash Sep 04 21:06:24 mmm.... Sep 04 21:06:30 I'll have a play Sep 04 21:06:42 since I can't build again... Sep 04 21:06:46 *sigh* Sep 04 21:11:12 u suser you didn't add or remove anything CM? Sep 04 21:11:16 u sure Sep 04 21:12:00 someone please let me know when ipkg update works again with buildhost .openmoko.org Sep 04 21:12:51 ScaredyCat: Why can't you build btw? Sep 04 21:12:56 I'm building right now Sep 04 21:13:14 it wont work because there are no packages on buildhost.openmoko.org Sep 04 21:13:50 Running task 3259 of 4577 Sep 04 21:13:52 Ah, ok. I started 2h ago and haven't noticed any problems yet since I haven't cleaned out my source dir Sep 04 21:14:03 is where it gets to.. then Sep 04 21:14:14 xf86dgaproto_2.0.2.bb isn't building :( Sep 04 21:14:44 unles it's using http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/ipk/ Sep 04 21:15:33 it part does that task then gives : Sep 04 21:15:34 ERROR: Exception: Message:[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/moko/newBuild/build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/xf86dgaproto-1_2.0.2-r1/install/xf86dgaproto-dbg.lock' Sep 04 21:17:30 this is the joy of using a dev system to build a dev system... Sep 04 21:17:52 ~blame Elrond for everything Sep 04 21:17:53 * apt blames daMaestro and perhaps Elrond for everything and the end of the world as we know it Sep 04 21:19:08 ;-) Sep 04 21:20:45 Here's a treat for all you RPN calculator lovers out there: Free42 running (beautifully!) on my Neo. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Quicksand Sep 04 21:21:19 ~blame ScaredyCat for blaming innocent elves Sep 04 21:21:20 * apt blames Tjikkun and perhaps ScaredyCat for blaming innocent elves and all the evil in the world Sep 04 21:23:23 Hi, I've got this problem with qemu: "XDM authorization key matches an existing client!Could not initialize SDL - exiting" What to do? Sep 04 21:24:41 lol Sep 04 21:24:45 apt just doesn't like me Sep 04 21:25:35 ~blame xdm for just it Sep 04 21:25:36 * apt blames Stephmw and perhaps xdm for just it and all the evil in the world Sep 04 21:25:53 apt used to have more funny phrases. Sep 04 21:26:15 * Stephmw looks around, what's he done now? Sep 04 21:26:31 ~lart ~blame Sep 04 21:26:31 * apt takes ~blame to the vet for a "special" visit Sep 04 21:26:53 CM: got past it ? Sep 04 21:26:58 Haha Sep 04 21:32:21 Ah.. qemu hates me Sep 04 21:32:32 I get "Could not initialize SDL - exiting" Sep 04 21:33:58 build borked again! Sep 04 21:34:04 ~lart apt Sep 04 21:34:04 * apt forces elrond to use Outlook Express Sep 04 21:34:33 * Elrond uses his elvenblade on Outlook Express Sep 04 21:35:09 xf86dgaproto Writchie? Sep 04 21:35:50 ScaredyCat: do_package_ipk Sep 04 21:35:53 * Elrond looks at the big letters of the m$ product and grins. ;o) Sep 04 21:40:13 ScaredyCat: Past xf86dgaproto? Sep 04 21:40:24 you? yes? Sep 04 21:40:33 No, that was the first one to fail, and after that a lot of the x libs failed Sep 04 21:40:40 * DPThought tries the key2key.py input method. I like it Sep 04 21:40:43 As well as openssh, libpcap and so on.. Sep 04 21:41:04 I asked in #oe and was told to remove build/temp.. Sep 04 21:41:23 you're || building? Sep 04 21:41:53 Running task 601 of 4577 Sep 04 21:42:13 build/tmp you mean Sep 04 21:42:15 Was a lot of SCR_REV changes in oe today, and some update to glibc Sep 04 21:42:22 ScaredyCat: Yes, sorry Sep 04 21:42:27 A bit tired now ;) Sep 04 21:42:40 me too, Sep 04 21:42:52 that's another full rebuild then.. Sep 04 21:42:57 fecking retarded Sep 04 21:43:13 i bet half of this shit isn;t even needed Sep 04 21:44:01 I agree :-/ Sep 04 21:45:04 * ScaredyCat goes to bed Sep 04 21:48:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Quicksand]] Sep 04 21:48:45 <|Lynx> and how may calls the gsmd stands ScaredyCat Sep 04 21:53:24 somebody an idea about that (gcc-cross-initial): http://rafb.net/p/geDM4975.html ? Sep 04 21:55:22 * CM doesn't Sep 04 22:02:13 morning Sep 04 22:02:38 morning Sep 04 22:06:13 hi all Sep 04 22:06:27 rwhitby: you might want to go right back to bed -- there's much SRCREV-related griping 'round these parts. Sep 04 22:06:40 Well, griping of some kind in any event. :) Sep 04 22:09:57 quicksand: I'm immune to griping Sep 04 22:10:26 rwhitby: That will serve you well. Sep 04 22:11:08 srcrev is overall a very good thing. it will stop the daily rebuilds of all the svn recipes Sep 04 22:11:27 it will require a rebuild of everything once all the srcrevs are in. Sep 04 22:11:49 Yes -- there will be some growing pains, though. Sep 04 22:19:01 is there a gps driver available at all yet? Sep 04 22:19:42 The GPS binary has not been released. 'real soon now' apparantly. Sep 04 22:19:50 oh well. thanks speedevil. Sep 04 22:23:24 1zillion dollar quesiton: so when the GTA02 will be ready? Sep 04 22:23:50 $0.0001 answer: on time Sep 04 22:23:52 ;) Sep 04 22:24:14 what time Sep 04 22:24:15 :) Sep 04 22:24:34 I'm betting on before 2973. Sep 04 22:24:37 daylight savings time Sep 04 22:25:00 * rwhitby has always said January Sep 04 22:25:23 with a P0 release to selected devs before that Sep 04 22:25:56 I hope I'm proven wrong, and it comes earlier. Sep 04 22:32:41 I believe the wiki says GTA02 for Oct .. but that was mentioned a while ago .. Sep 04 22:33:32 I'm *hoping* that is the case :) Sep 04 22:52:39 psymin: don't hold your breath. for an october mass market release, the hardware must be frozen about now (going on past timeframes for manufacture, shipping, customs, order fulfillment, shipping, etc Sep 04 22:53:22 rwhitby, Thanks for the dose of realism Sep 04 23:05:20 psymin: what does "mass market" mean in the context that software is half a year from being anything near mass market? Sep 04 23:06:07 I think GTA02 is going to be another P1 release just with different hardware - and that is probably as it should be. Sep 04 23:06:39 hi all Sep 04 23:07:49 cesarb: would like to chat a bit when I get back if you'll be around? Sep 04 23:08:21 sure Sep 04 23:08:34 * cesarb is still halfway through the very interesting scrollback Sep 04 23:08:42 (aka "look what I started!") Sep 04 23:09:11 cesarb - What did you start? Sep 04 23:09:25 Elrond: the crazy number format discussion Sep 04 23:09:55 Elrond: it started this morning with someone else saying something about a random idea of making the Neo play DTMF tones to dial landline phones Sep 04 23:10:14 *G* Sep 04 23:10:16 Nice idea. Sep 04 23:10:27 Elrond: but complaining that since DTMF doesn't have the + prefix, it would need to know more details about prefixes and so on Sep 04 23:10:29 hey is anyone working on a non X11 text-based ascii art interface for using the neo ? Sep 04 23:10:43 Elrond: I pitched in to say "no problem, we already need that for cell calls, + prefix doesn't work here" Sep 04 23:11:11 Elrond: and it started a multi-hour discussion on numbering plans around the world ;-) Sep 04 23:11:57 Ahh. Sep 04 23:12:00 That's fun anyway. Sep 04 23:12:11 cesarb - Where do you live, that "+" does not work in GSM? Sep 04 23:12:15 Elrond: brazil Sep 04 23:12:26 Elrond: and at least it doesn't work on mine... Sep 04 23:12:33 Elrond: gives a prerecorded error message Sep 04 23:12:50 So what's the int-prefix for you? 00? Sep 04 23:13:06 Elrond: probably because you always have to add the carrier selection code, and you can't do that in the international format Sep 04 23:13:16 Elrond: 00, but it doesn't matter since it's a local call Sep 04 23:13:48 Elrond: background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Brazil and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carrier_Selection_Code Sep 04 23:14:35 hello, is there any specific date for the realease of the GTA02? Sep 04 23:14:35 Akuma: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 04 23:15:09 or all that is known is that it'll come out in october? Sep 04 23:18:01 October is the only word we have. Sep 04 23:18:12 It will _not_ if it really does - be end user ready Sep 04 23:18:21 it's basically not a functional phone at the moment. Sep 04 23:20:39 I see, so GTA02 won't really be ready for use despite the info on the wiki? Sep 04 23:21:28 The problem is that the core team has not clarified stuff. Sep 04 23:21:47 uh? Sep 04 23:21:57 Oh. Sep 04 23:22:03 lol Sep 04 23:22:12 no, there is no end-user suitable software yet. Sep 04 23:22:23 okok Sep 04 23:22:26 It's not utterly inconcievable it might work as a basic phone in oct Sep 04 23:22:54 At the moment, for example, you can't turn on the phone part, and use the dialer Sep 04 23:23:24 It works if you turn on the modem manually - but... Sep 04 23:24:19 I see, well it's a great project nonetheless :) Sep 04 23:24:38 hopefully I'll be able to get myself one as soon as they get it working Sep 04 23:24:55 I'm interested in the developer edition, I wouldn't mind playing around with it Sep 04 23:25:24 cesarb - Ahh. I'll read on wikipedia tomorrow. Sep 04 23:25:24 I didn't really want to get the GTA01 for lack of WiFi Sep 04 23:27:00 Akuma: hey, at least it already has bluetooth Sep 04 23:27:09 Akuma: the very first ones didn't have bluetooth Sep 04 23:27:19 But can't wake on bluetooth. :/ Sep 04 23:27:49 guessing it'll take some more work on software to get everything to work neatly Sep 04 23:27:58 SpeedEvil: weren't you guys trying to find out a marvelously crazy way of making it wake up after all, with the minimal amount of power comsumption? ;-) Sep 04 23:28:33 SpeedEvil: (involving evil "sector 0" hacks on uboot and timer-based wakeup on slow modes or some crazy things like that IIRC) Sep 04 23:30:02 i'm currently building the lastest 2007.2 release. It's been a few weeks since I've updated the build. Anything to look forward to? Makeing calls yet? Sep 04 23:30:13 what is the issue with bluetooth wakeup? Sep 04 23:30:28 minthome: you can look forward to build breakage due to a new gcc release Sep 04 23:30:37 lul, yay! Sep 04 23:30:52 hozer: the wake outputs from the bluetooth chip doesn't go anywhere Sep 04 23:31:01 hozer: anywhere that can wake up the CPU at least Sep 04 23:31:15 minthome: if you get the build breakage, you'll have to clean the build and restart from scratch Sep 04 23:31:38 minthome: or at least that's what I've been telling people to do, so far without any complaints that it didn't fix Sep 04 23:31:50 s/didn't fix/didn't fix that issue/ Sep 04 23:31:50 cesarb meant: minthome: or at least that's what I've been telling people to do, so far without any complaints that it didn't fix that issue Sep 04 23:31:58 I just ran, make update-makefile && make setup update openmoko-devel-image Sep 04 23:32:04 so we'll see eh Sep 04 23:32:05 cesarb: yes - in principle. Sep 04 23:32:15 cesarb: that's going to be more time. Sep 04 23:32:40 why did apt correct you? Sep 04 23:32:47 minthome: because I asked it to Sep 04 23:32:56 minthome: see the s/// command I used? Sep 04 23:32:58 ah, heh, didn't see that Sep 04 23:33:00 s/more/greater/ Sep 04 23:33:00 is there a way to get bitbake to remove old build dirs, but not current stuff? Sep 04 23:33:00 SpeedEvil meant: cesarb: that's going to be greater time. Sep 04 23:33:11 urgh, now apt's just being silly :P Sep 04 23:33:36 ah, I didn't see it was speedevil who asked to be corrected this time :D Sep 04 23:33:48 hozer: I made one yesterday Sep 04 23:33:56 hozer: hacky, but at least it's something Sep 04 23:34:04 is the wiki down atm? Sep 04 23:34:26 hozer: http://pastebin.ca/680544 Sep 04 23:34:26 minthome: I'm on it, seems to work fine... Sep 04 23:34:49 hozer: it can clean the annoying +svn things for a specific date, and also the generated images for a specific date Sep 04 23:34:50 >10s response minthome Sep 04 23:34:53 Akuma, not coming up for me Sep 04 23:35:02 >30s Sep 04 23:35:10 yeah, it's not resolving Sep 04 23:35:11 grr Sep 04 23:35:29 um.. 'make remove_work' just did this: Sep 04 23:35:30 KeyError: 'do_rm_work' Sep 04 23:36:17 hw, the wiki is working fine for me... Sep 04 23:36:49 (a bit slow, but as a Wikipedia administrator, I'm used to slow wikis ;-) ) Sep 04 23:37:17 I have a question that may sound a tad stupid: in order to make software for the phone do I need the actual device or can I just do with the Develompente Environment? Sep 04 23:37:49 oh, wait, it did resolve (i first pinged wiki.openmoko.com), but http request... do'h there it came up Sep 04 23:37:50 Akuma: development enviroment (oe, bitbake) Sep 04 23:38:00 yea Sep 04 23:38:05 Akuma: you can also test a lot of things on qemu Sep 04 23:38:19 Akuma: but there are some things were it's hard to develop without a device Sep 04 23:38:25 (not familiar at all with any embedded development, just staring to learn this kind of field) Sep 04 23:38:27 Akuma: like gsmd or GPS stuff Sep 04 23:38:46 Akuma: take a look at the mokomakefile page on the wiki, it's the best starting point Sep 04 23:39:06 Akuma: (you will need a dozen gigabytes of free disk space, and a lot of patience the first time) Sep 04 23:39:19 hahaha, I gathered that much lol Sep 04 23:39:53 cesarb: so you need to select carrier on every single call and the carrier refuses to accept number type 145 calls? Sep 04 23:39:56 * cesarb wonders if rwhitby's IRC client also lights on mention of "mokomakefile" the same way it probably does on mention of "rwhitby" Sep 04 23:39:59 another question: do I need a system solely dedicated to developing embedded? Sep 04 23:40:12 (ie. a machine only used as Dev environment) Sep 04 23:42:11 Writchie: I have to select carrier on every single non-local call (i.e., the carrier selection is needed when calling to another area code) Sep 04 23:42:25 Writchie: for local calls, I can just use the 8-digit local number Sep 04 23:42:46 Akuma: no, just a directory with lots and lots of disk space (as I said, at least a dozen gigabytes) Sep 04 23:42:53 so you need to use only "national" numbers on your SIM and roaming is then broken Sep 04 23:42:54 Akuma: USB is nice too (for plugging a neo) Sep 04 23:43:12 Akuma: needs enough memory so it won't die on some more heavy builds... Sep 04 23:43:21 Akuma: and do not forget the CPU, else it'll take forever ;-) Sep 04 23:43:26 lol Sep 04 23:43:35 Writchie: well, I've never roamed outside the country Sep 04 23:43:51 That's good to know! I'll keep on reading, thanks for the info! Sep 04 23:44:06 well if you roam without storing numbers in +xxx format you can't call from your SIM phonebook Sep 04 23:44:07 Writchie: when I'm on another area code, I have to dial 0xx21nnnnnnnn to phone home (I'm on area code 21, xx is the carrier code, I usually use 21) Sep 04 23:44:32 so you can't even use your sim phonebook in country? Sep 04 23:44:38 Writchie: but, when I'm roaming, people on area code 21 can call me without any special dialing (to them, I'm on a local number) Sep 04 23:44:56 great - a half working mobile ;) Sep 04 23:45:02 Writchie: well, I usually type the numbers from memory ;-) Sep 04 23:45:20 i can't even remember my own numbers Sep 04 23:45:27 Writchie: my phone number is mostly for numbers I don't use much, and for numbers I use a lot (the last kind on single-button speed-dial) Sep 04 23:46:06 cesarb: this seriously violates GSM spec. It's not fixable throughout because dialing number N from SIM card will never work. Sep 04 23:46:09 Writchie: I think my phone has a "prefixing" function (where you select the phone book entry, type the prefix, and dial), but never learned how to use it Sep 04 23:46:18 ah: Sep 04 23:46:31 maybe it really isn't all that broken. Sep 04 23:47:04 you guys don't have any form of carrier pre-subscription? Sep 04 23:47:15 Writchie: in fact, dialing from a mobile and from a landline on the same physical place is exactly the same way... which avoids confusions (and is easy to remember, brazil has a nice clean numbering plan) Sep 04 23:47:23 Writchie: what's that? Sep 04 23:48:03 in the US the dialing plan default to the "pre-subscribed" carrier but you can dial another carrer instead with 10xxx code Sep 04 23:48:03 Writchie: asking my cell carrier to use one of the interstate carriers as the default? Sep 04 23:48:42 Writchie: wouldn't work, since it would confuse parsing the numbers, unless a special magic prefix is used... and I know of none Sep 04 23:49:06 Writchie: since for instance Rio's area code is 21 and Embratel's carrier selection code is... 21 Sep 04 23:49:26 cesarb: it would have to be supplementary service code Sep 04 23:49:29 Writchie: and a phone would not be able to know when the number ended Sep 04 23:49:34 Writchie: the * or # ones? Sep 04 23:50:08 per the GSM spec, a type 145 number is always treated exactly the same anywhere. Sep 04 23:50:25 whether it is a local call or long distance or international Sep 04 23:50:46 the spec requires that these numbers be accepted and treated as local if they are indeed local Sep 04 23:51:38 Writchie: Well, dialing +5521nnnnnnnn from my phone (to get to the landline 2 meters from me) resulted in a recorded error message, while just nnnnnnnn works Sep 04 23:51:44 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Repositories]] [[SettingsGUI]] Sep 04 23:51:44 * cesarb tries again Sep 04 23:51:59 cesarb: on the neo Sep 04 23:52:39 "It wasn't possible to complete your call. Please, check the number and dial again." Sep 04 23:52:57 cesarb: was this on the neo from the command line? Sep 04 23:52:58 where is the conf file for the RSS reader? Sep 04 23:53:18 (quick translation from portuguese... that's the normal voice message when you dial something incorrectly) Sep 04 23:53:38 Writchie: on the razr, I didn't manage to get the neo's speaker to work yet (but then I didn't try much) Sep 04 23:53:55 * cesarb goes get the neo and opens the razr to get the SIM Sep 04 23:55:01 cesarb: first thing to do is AT+CSTA=? to get supported types Sep 04 23:55:37 cesarb: after registration with the network. Sep 04 23:56:08 Writchie: well, first thing is make gsmd behave (I always have to kill it and run by hand) Sep 04 23:56:42 oh i forgot, your cu not working. Sep 04 23:57:56 i just wanna add a few more RSS feeds to the feedreader, and sadly, without `locate` I don't know where to look Sep 04 23:58:57 Writchie: cu doesn't work, but libgsmd -m atcmd does Sep 04 23:59:11 Writchie: I played with %EM a bit these days Sep 04 23:59:25 ok = what does AT+CSTA=? report after registration Sep 04 23:59:47 Writchie: still waiting to see if the GUI appears or it locked up again Sep 04 23:59:59 Writchie: it seems it locks up every first boot after changing the SIM Sep 05 00:00:35 cesarb: i guess i'm lucky, my gsmd never starts Sep 05 00:01:15 Writchie: yup, was locked up, just did the hold-down-until-it-turns-off and hold-down-until-it-turns-on dance Sep 05 00:01:40 Writchie: I suspect these lockups are the same reported on a bugzilla bug... speaking of which I didn't check the buglog archives yet today Sep 05 00:02:40 yay, I have GUI Sep 05 00:03:20 cesarb: poor you Sep 05 00:03:27 ;) Sep 05 00:04:28 And, as usual, gsmd was stuck on "ATZ" "AT+CFUN=1" "AT+COPS=0" with no answer from the modem... killing and restarting it on the foreground works (again, as usual) Sep 05 00:04:48 RSTR=`+CSTA: (129,145)' Sep 05 00:05:07 that's the same as here. Sep 05 00:05:47 try dialing first by doing an AT+CSTA=145 and then an ATDT+55xxxxxxxxx; Sep 05 00:06:11 AT+CSTA? returns +CSTA: 129 Sep 05 00:06:12 then repeat with an AT+CSTA=129 first Sep 05 00:07:51 tried dialing first without doing any CSTA manipulations, to see what happens Sep 05 00:08:12 it got connected, and after a few moments a release, and the landline didn't ring Sep 05 00:09:20 cesarb: so if you do an AT+CSTA=145 and then check with an AT+CSTA? it still shows 129? Sep 05 00:09:33 Writchie: no, now it shows 145 Sep 05 00:10:16 Writchie: dialing has the same effect, connect then after a few moments release Sep 05 00:10:31 and your dialing +5521xxxxxxxxx where xxxxxxxxxxx is the local number Sep 05 00:10:56 Writchie: if the headset phone output worked (it never did for me), I could know if it's the recorded message... Sep 05 00:11:02 ah Sep 05 00:11:04 Writchie: yeah, +5521 plus 8 local digits Sep 05 00:11:32 are you getting call progress indications? Sep 05 00:12:20 Writchie: yeah, several Sep 05 00:12:32 managed to hear the voice... very low... saying the number was incomplete... Sep 05 00:12:37 * cesarb tries again Sep 05 00:13:33 "the number dialed is incomplete; please, verify the desired number" Sep 05 00:13:40 that was with 129, let me see with 145... Sep 05 00:13:56 can you dial a US number using +1xxxyyyzzzz - 11 digits total and see if you get the same thing Sep 05 00:14:24 forget it that won't work Sep 05 00:14:35 international is probably barred Sep 05 00:14:42 Writchie: hm, with 145 it has a _different_ message... the one I got with my razr Sep 05 00:15:50 with 145: "It wasn't possible to complete your call. Please, check the number and dial again." Sep 05 00:17:31 cesarb: 129 is the default and is probably equivalent to what the razr is using. Sep 05 00:19:21 Writchie: well, then why does the razr give me the error message I get for 145? Sep 05 00:19:31 Writchie: perhaps it sees the + and know it can switch to 145? Sep 05 00:19:45 Writchie: (which would make a lot of sense) Sep 05 00:19:48 yes when you use the + it uses 145 Sep 05 00:19:53 otherwise 129 Sep 05 00:19:56 by default Sep 05 00:20:19 you might try setting it to 145 and then dialing without the + Sep 05 00:20:36 dialing the full number 5521xxxxxxxx Sep 05 00:21:21 the same error message Sep 05 00:21:42 the modem seems to simply ignore the + Sep 05 00:21:44 cesarb: there are supplementary service codes that may be used in these networks for carrier selection. Sep 05 00:22:05 i'll do some research. Sep 05 00:22:17 which would make sense for the 129 number being "incomplete", since it's lacking the carrier selection code Sep 05 00:22:34 while the 145 number is complete, but it "cannot complete the call"... Sep 05 00:22:41 cesarb: except its not complete for an E.164 number in brasil Sep 05 00:23:17 Writchie: the number I dialed is my E164 number (5521nnnnnnnn), so it's complete... Sep 05 00:23:38 the ATDT+5521xxxxxxx format gives you can't complete call? Sep 05 00:23:39 Writchie: it's the "national" number scheme which is not complete, since you have to use the carrier selection code Sep 05 00:24:00 Writchie: which one I get depends on AT+CSTA, the + doesn't seem to matter Sep 05 00:24:35 are you internal calls enabled by any chance Sep 05 00:25:18 Writchie: nope Sep 05 00:25:41 Writchie: but these aren't international calls, so it shouldn't matter (unless their routing is really funky) Sep 05 00:26:11 i just wanted to compare what it did for numbers outside of brasil Sep 05 00:26:33 Writchie: I just tried in the other direction, landline->neo Sep 05 00:26:39 is the razr a brazilian version Sep 05 00:26:51 Writchie: yep Sep 05 00:27:01 Writchie: a "subsidy lock"ed one even Sep 05 00:27:22 I got a CLIP of 021nnnnnnnn when dialing to the neo Sep 05 00:27:37 you might try entering a couple of numbers in your sim using the + format and we can later look on the neo to see what it stored. Sep 05 00:27:49 what was the type of number? Sep 05 00:27:53 +CLIP: "021nnnnnnnn",161,"",,"Casa",0 Sep 05 00:28:02 ah, 161 is national number Sep 05 00:28:17 (it says "Casa" because it's the single number in the SIM's address book) Sep 05 00:28:27 Casa == home Sep 05 00:29:10 Writchie: yeah, creative isn't it? :D Sep 05 00:29:31 the sim card stores type of number as well as possibly some extra foo for call by call supplementary services Sep 05 00:30:36 urgh, libgsmd-tool -m shell's phonebook read SEGVs Sep 05 00:30:53 cu is your friend Sep 05 00:31:04 Writchie: or libgsmd-tool -m atcmd ;-) Sep 05 00:31:16 Writchie: do you know without having to look up what's the phonebook read command? Sep 05 00:32:29 cesarb: +CPBR=? Sep 05 00:33:03 then +CPBR=n where n is index Sep 05 00:33:26 RSTR=`+CPBR: 1,"nnnnnnnn",129,"Casa"' Sep 05 00:33:37 (the 8 "n" are the number) Sep 05 00:34:16 if you get a chance later put a number in from the razor using +5521 and see what gets stored. Sep 05 00:35:42 Writchie: ok... (I can do it right now if you can stand the slow shutdown-swap-shutdown-swap cycle) Sep 05 00:35:55 whenever you get the chance. Sep 05 00:36:11 i think the network is going to turn out to be non-compliant with gsm spec Sep 05 00:36:18 it can be fixed. Sep 05 00:36:35 but it needs a hack around the dialing from phone book commands Sep 05 00:37:26 when a neo user travels to brasil, his +5521 or other numbers can be handled exceptionally Sep 05 00:37:31 prompt for carrier code Sep 05 00:37:38 then dial per national plan Sep 05 00:37:55 this allows only canonical numbers to be stored in phone book. Sep 05 00:38:05 perhaps roaming customers are treated differently Sep 05 00:38:29 oh, cool +CPBR: 1,"190",129,"Policia" (with AT+CPBS="SD") Sep 05 00:38:55 Writchie: dunno... I can only test with this SIM so far (and Vivo's, but well... Vivo is GSM850) Sep 05 00:38:59 except when the cell is in a favella Sep 05 00:39:25 then its replaced by "Nobody" Sep 05 00:39:38 Writchie: nah, it would be "Milícia" Sep 05 00:40:01 my portuguse sucks Sep 05 00:40:09 like my spelling Sep 05 00:40:13 Writchie: (rogue policemen/firemen which go against the traffickers... and then act worse than them) Sep 05 00:48:46 cool, if I ATDT*544#; I get a +CUSD reply back with the prepaid credits left Sep 05 00:48:59 however, for some reason AT+CUSD=1,"*544#",15 doesn't Sep 05 00:51:00 cesarb: what do you get from AT+CUSD=? Sep 05 00:51:23 Writchie: the expected RSTR=`+CUSD: (0,1,2)' Sep 05 00:53:44 Writchie: well, what's cool is that I have some way to get the answer to *544#, which is a must have for me (amount of credits left) Sep 05 00:54:23 cesarb: i'm not sure of the format on the CUSD command being correct - will have to check Sep 05 00:56:04 wtf the neo rebooted itself! Sep 05 00:56:41 copied the feature from XP SP2 Sep 05 00:56:51 * cesarb wonders if the phone should have more logging to debug these things Sep 05 00:56:53 Writchie: lol Sep 05 00:57:42 the other day trying to install windows serial driver to make u-boot work gave me an instant black screen of death on XP Sep 05 00:58:00 so no more testing with live systems for me Sep 05 01:00:29 cesarb: you CUSD string looks ok - strange it doesn't work Sep 05 01:01:21 s/you/your/ Sep 05 01:01:22 Writchie meant: cesarb: your CUSD string looks ok - strange it doesn't work Sep 05 01:03:28 Writchie: it returns +CME ERROR: 100 exactly like the ATDT one, but the ATDT one also returns the unsolicited +CUSD response Sep 05 01:05:30 cesarb: the AT+CUSD command for me returns OK followed by a +CUSD: 4 response Sep 05 01:05:44 but that's with cu Sep 05 01:06:06 as I said before , i don't trust gsmd/libgsm Sep 05 01:09:19 Writchie: it can be a SIM or network difference Sep 05 01:09:33 yes Sep 05 01:20:14 Just created on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/Requirements a list of what I think must be working before the Neo can actually be used as someone's primary cell phone Sep 05 01:29:44 cesarb: are you getting CB down there? Sep 05 01:31:17 Writchie: only a dumb one on channel 50 saying "Claro RJ 21" Sep 05 01:31:35 at least that's more than we get ;) Sep 05 01:31:41 Writchie: (in fact, it shows your current state and area code... kinda useful on 12-hour-long bus trips) Sep 05 01:32:13 Writchie: on my razr, it turns it off because it's incredibly dumb UI puts the CB on top of the current date Sep 05 01:32:16 i hope they don't charge you for it Sep 05 01:32:21 Writchie: s/it turns/I turn it/ Sep 05 01:33:01 Writchie: why would they charge me for it, if it's enabled on every single phone they sell? (and isn't a broadcast? how can one charge for a broadcast?) Sep 05 01:33:39 bell shaped head will try to charge you for everything Sep 05 01:34:22 sms message cost $0.0001 and is priced at $0.25 retail Sep 05 01:35:21 cesarb: EMS is relatively simple Sep 05 01:35:49 cesarb: MMS is going to require WAP stack Sep 05 01:36:13 IMHO this is a must but core developer don't agree at all with that Sep 05 01:37:17 MMS probably needs to be moved to nice to have along with STK which is another no-no for the core team Sep 05 01:37:40 Writchie: well, as it's noted on the top, that page is solely my opinion Sep 05 01:37:50 I would, however, like to at least decode the OTA setup messages from the SMS Sep 05 01:37:55 Writchie: (in fact, I made it to keep track of where I should focus my hacking) Sep 05 01:38:41 Writchie: if you want a carrier to accept the phone, it probably will need WAP, MMS and STK... Sep 05 01:39:02 well first it has to even comply with basic MMI requirements for GSM Sep 05 01:39:04 Writchie: for instance, some banking stuff might be acessible only via WAP Sep 05 01:39:08 which it does not. Sep 05 01:39:29 no carrier would want a phone without MMS Sep 05 01:39:31 or WAP Sep 05 01:40:12 Writchie: what is the requirements spec number? I had it somewhere, but don't recall the number, and the filenames only have numbers in them... Sep 05 01:40:16 nor would most ordinary users consider MMS prevention to be a feature ;) Sep 05 01:40:52 Writchie: why? MMS is mostly a NOP, I never saw it actually being used Sep 05 01:40:56 Carriers accepting the neo - I'd be astonished if it's an issue this year. Sep 05 01:41:11 Writchie: other than a friend trying (and failing) to send me two photos of a buswreck Sep 05 01:41:23 SpeedEvil: heh, we can dream ;-) Sep 05 01:41:48 Writchie: the most important part of that page is the "must have", which is what I need to actually be able to USE the phone Sep 05 01:41:51 cesarb: TS 122 030 Sep 05 01:42:00 Writchie: the rest is just trying to sort the extra Sep 05 01:42:18 Writchie: urgh, the numbers I use are the 3GPP ones :P (like 07.07...) Sep 05 01:42:35 Writchie: I think there's a page somewhere where I can convert the spec number Sep 05 01:42:54 http://webapp.etsi.org/key/queryform.asp Sep 05 01:43:04 this will pull them all up Sep 05 01:43:23 with either number Sep 05 01:47:20 Writchie: found it, thanks Sep 05 01:52:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:CesarB/Requirements]] Sep 05 01:55:56 cesarb: in US MMS revenue is about $700 million per quarter Sep 05 01:56:10 WAP is about $1 billion per quarter Sep 05 01:56:40 MMS + WAP + Downloads are greater than SMS Sep 05 01:57:19 still it's just like "WTF" Sep 05 01:57:39 and i'm sitting here with ~300kbps! lame. Sep 05 01:57:53 cesarb: 77 million MMS users, 74 million WAP users and 148 Million SMS users in US Sep 05 01:59:31 ipkg repositories changed? Sep 05 02:00:07 can't get buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/ipk/{all,armv4t,fic-gta01}/Packages.gz Sep 05 02:01:09 bmidgley: much seems to be changing at the moment Sep 05 02:02:27 i was really hoping I wouldn't have to keep flashing the rootfs Sep 05 02:02:38 just do ipkg upgrades and the occasional kernel reflash Sep 05 02:16:01 morning, all Sep 05 02:16:14 any recommendations on which kernel I should be using? Sep 05 02:21:51 * Psi_ changes the batteries in the neo stylus Sep 05 02:33:22 Anyone know when the neo will be ready to use GSM850? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Sep 05 02:59:56 2007