**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 16 02:59:57 2007 Sep 16 03:09:49 bai'all Sep 16 03:53:34 | Failure to read QMAKESPEC conf file /home/moko/build/tmp/staging/i486-angstrom-linux/qt4/mkspec\ Sep 16 03:53:34 s/linux-oe-g++/qmake.conf. Sep 16 03:53:34 | Error processing project file: /home/moko/build/tmp/work/i486-angstrom-linux/webkit-gtk-0.0+svn\ Sep 16 03:53:34 r25507-r1/WebKit.pro Sep 16 03:55:19 looks like webkit is not a frozen svn version yet ... Sep 16 03:55:49 I say feedreader should be excluded from the image until all it's dependencies have frozen building versions ... Sep 16 04:06:29 i have been having real problems with uicmoc-native compiling on my box on gentoo, anyone having the same problem Sep 16 05:06:05 * dotmef thinks that too many things try to restart gsmd Sep 16 05:12:40 * cesarb believes nothing should restart gsmd, other than perhaps an advanced option buried 3-level-deep on a settings GUI to manually stop/start services Sep 16 05:13:05 gsmd should not crash, and should the modem become unresponsive, or there is a need to turn it on/off, gsmd should deal with it Sep 16 05:13:27 yup. Sep 16 05:13:46 (and it goes without saying that it should just damn work when the phone is turned on. every. time.) Sep 16 05:13:56 I'm seeing the rc-script and the gsmd being killed repeatedly during startup Sep 16 05:14:37 I've put in lockfiles and traps to make the rc-script a little more robust Sep 16 05:15:12 now it seems stable once I restart X Sep 16 05:15:22 but it's still bonkers on boot Sep 16 05:16:37 I seem to remember someone mentioning that X itself is set to restart gsmd - have you heard/seen that? Sep 16 05:20:27 dotmef: a lot of people seem to put a restart on matchbox's session file Sep 16 05:20:48 dotmef: don't know if that workaround got upstream... I didn't follow much this later half of this week Sep 16 05:21:47 dotmef: btw, did you try my patches on bug 766? they should make gsmd even more robust... (and even then, it still fails on most boots. must be some hardware thing.) Sep 16 05:22:19 cesarb: 766? don't think I've seen it. lemme check Sep 16 05:22:31 * dotmef fires up Bugzilla Sep 16 05:22:34 I mean, with the patches on bug 766, I can see the modem get send an ATZ, send back an OK, get sent an ATE0V1, and then _sit there doing nothing_. Sep 16 05:22:49 Which really seems to point to either the modem or the kernel Sep 16 05:23:08 Other times, it stops on ATZ, with no response from the modem Sep 16 05:23:27 oh wow. holy crap that's bad Sep 16 05:23:52 And, other times, it sends an ATZ, the modem sends back "AT Command Interpreter Ready", and then the changes on my patch kick in, gsmd changes ATZ again (which it doesn't do without my patch...), and it all works fine Sep 16 05:24:08 This third case seems responsible for about half the times it works on boot for me Sep 16 05:25:00 The other half it sends ATZ, receives back two ATZ echoes (why two? no fscking clue) and the OK, sends ATE0V1, receives back again two echoes and the OK, and the rest goes normally with echo off Sep 16 05:25:02 right - cool. Sep 16 05:25:23 bizarre Sep 16 05:25:59 Unfortunately, Harald is busy elsewhere and thus can't review my patch, which I am believing he will either accept or code up one of his own to fix the same bug in a different way Sep 16 05:26:52 (btw, this fourth case would work even without my patch... so it does not make much of a difference after all) Sep 16 05:28:19 man - that's a shame that Harald hasn't had a chance to look at it. we need to clone him. Sep 16 05:29:06 the other thing that confuses me is the lack of a "cpuinfo_id" program that the gsmd rc-script uses. Sep 16 05:29:11 bk clone openmoko://harald ? Sep 16 05:29:25 several of the panel items have code that **stops and restarts** gsmd if they can't connect to it! (They clobber each other) Sep 16 05:29:26 :-D Sep 16 05:29:56 Error: no space on device Sep 16 05:30:41 gnu: yep - been seeing that in the moko-gsmd-connection code Sep 16 05:31:04 pulling that code out should improve the uptime of gsmd... Sep 16 05:31:04 which seems to be invoked twice during the desktop startup Sep 16 05:32:09 ckuethe: nobody uses bitkeeper anymore... Sep 16 05:32:30 s/bk/git/ Sep 16 05:49:44 * dotmef tries cesarb's crazy patch that escaped from the bugzoola Sep 16 06:11:29 a core 2 duo cpu would use the x86_64 version of F7, right? Sep 16 06:11:48 yep Sep 16 06:12:08 the x86_64 installer should fail if it can't detect a 64-bit CPU Sep 16 06:12:29 you can still use the i386 version if you want Sep 16 06:14:12 i'd rather do the 64 bit version, i encode a lot ov video for my pmp Sep 16 06:14:20 of* Sep 16 06:14:47 cool - as long as you're prepared to not have easy access to things like Flash Sep 16 06:15:26 just setup a custom launcher to run 32 bit ff Sep 16 06:15:37 yup, or use Gnash Sep 16 06:17:38 gnash working reasonably well now? Sep 16 06:18:22 definitely. Sep 16 06:18:29 0.8.1 is still quite rough around the edges Sep 16 06:18:56 and more advanced flash (v8 & 9 I think) isn't so good Sep 16 06:19:28 but youtube is working pretty good now. (ignore the mangled widgets :) ) Sep 16 06:19:56 I don't think anyone's packaged up 0.8.1 for F7 yet though Sep 16 06:20:38 maybe in atrpms or somewhere like that Sep 16 06:20:52 eww Sep 16 06:21:02 :D Sep 16 06:22:07 I'm off to eat and do some non-free work. Sep 16 06:22:25 good luck with the install! Sep 16 08:26:09 hi Sep 16 08:44:52 good morning Sep 16 09:22:02 anybode here ? Sep 16 09:22:09 anybody Sep 16 09:25:09 me Sep 16 09:25:12 :D Sep 16 09:25:14 cool Sep 16 09:25:39 Sup3rkiddo: do you have any idea how I could set up mokomakefile to build my own image ? Sep 16 09:26:16 I'd like to be able to do something like make polz-devel-image, but still get updates when I run make update-makefile Sep 16 09:26:31 polz, ah wait, theres a wiki page, gimme a minute mate Sep 16 09:26:54 polz, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Application_Development_Crash_Course#Setting_Up_a_Local_Overlay Sep 16 09:26:59 something like this? Sep 16 09:27:11 not exactly... Sep 16 09:28:06 with that, you have to issue "cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake -c polz-devel-image Sep 16 09:30:15 polz, yeah dude, scroll down a little,,, Sep 16 09:32:34 Sup3rkiddo: that's... ugly Sep 16 09:32:58 polz, lol, thats what i do..=D, Sep 16 09:33:56 Sup3rkiddo: I'd much rather keep the list of aditional packages in local/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-polz Sep 16 09:35:59 polz, you could hack the MokoMakefile a whee bit to do a cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake -c polz-devel-image routine Sep 16 09:36:04 oops, brb Sep 16 09:36:45 I know... but that would get overwritten everytime I do an update-makefile Sep 16 09:38:17 polz, i normally keep the changed copy and rename the original Makefile to something else...bit stupid, i must agree Sep 16 09:38:51 openmoko: 03zecke * r2975 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-feedreader2/ (ChangeLog po/LINGUAS po/he.po po/ru.po): Sep 16 09:38:51 openmoko: 2007-09-16 Evgeny Gizburg Sep 16 09:38:51 openmoko: Add a hebrew and russian translation. Sep 16 09:38:51 openmoko: * po/LINGUAS: Sep 16 09:38:51 openmoko: * po/he.po: Added. Sep 16 09:38:53 openmoko: * po/ru.po: Added. Sep 16 09:40:52 polz, never mind, i was blabbering..sorry mate =| Sep 16 09:41:28 no problem ; a week ago your tips would have meant a lot to me :) Sep 16 09:41:42 * Sup3rkiddo is drunk a bit Sep 16 09:42:12 polz, welcome man, cya around in a bit Sep 16 10:15:00 * Kero gets a whole bunch of errors like: OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '.../build/tmp/work/armv4t-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/libidn-0.5.19-r0/install/libidn-locale' Sep 16 10:16:10 on `make openmko-devel-image`. creating the dir lets the scripts continu, but (esp since I switched off locle generation, to see if that helped; wondering why the option had disappeared from local.conf, too) nothing is ever put there. Sep 16 10:41:08 Sup3rkiddo, polz: try "make build-package-polz-devel-image" Sep 16 10:41:55 rwhitby: gaah! That's sooo obvious Sep 16 10:42:59 rwhitby, merging the changes in the pristine Makefile and my bastardized one will be awesome when i do make update-makefile..=) Sep 16 10:44:26 * rwhitby shrugs Sep 16 10:45:48 :P Sep 16 10:47:15 Sup3rkiddo: just modify your version so that the update-makefile patches the new version automatically with your changes if possible ;) Sep 16 10:47:43 * Sup3rkiddo is a lazy bum ;D Sep 16 10:48:39 well, it doesn't really conflict with laziness if you ask me. In the long run, it should save you a bit of time. Sep 16 10:49:44 Jiten, right, doing that would be awesome, lemme see what i can do, when i get the time that is ;) Sep 16 10:57:35 Sup3rkiddo: note that the charter of the MokoMakefile is to make sure things are built the same as the core team expects, so that bug reports from developer builds are relevant. Adding things to an image is fine (although I would suggest just getting the thing added to task-openmoko-feed and then ipkg installing it), but patches which change the way the standard image is built are not likely to be compatible with that charter. Sep 16 10:58:16 rwhitby, O.O, hmm...ok....i understand... Sep 16 11:25:37 rwhitby: is it safe to do both a "make setup" and "make setup-x86" in the same dir ? Sep 16 11:26:29 should be - the openmoko conf uses multimachine in OE, which is designed to allow that. Sep 16 11:27:04 webkit doesn't built for MACHINE=x86 for me, so I haven't been able to test that latelt. Sep 16 11:27:07 lately. Sep 16 11:41:35 openmoko: 03mickey * r2976 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/moko-notify.c): openmoko-dialer2: play ringtone sample Sep 16 11:48:22 re Sep 16 12:24:18 hello Sep 16 12:24:36 ping rwhitby Sep 16 12:24:56 gu Sep 16 12:25:53 rwhitby, I've got that patch for the svn trunk ready Sep 16 12:26:17 rwhitby, do you want to have a look at it? Sep 16 12:27:15 sure, pastebin it Sep 16 12:29:46 rwhitby, http://pastebin.com/dd40523e Sep 16 12:36:34 hi all Sep 16 12:36:56 hey hhf423 Sep 16 12:37:00 whats up, any news? Sep 16 12:37:52 hhf423, I did some boot analysis Sep 16 12:38:31 bootcharts based? Sep 16 12:38:39 hhf423, with tuukkah. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootcharts Sep 16 12:38:43 yes Sep 16 12:38:51 Anyone here have bluetooth working as a server on the Neo yet? Sep 16 12:38:58 how does that work? e.g. how would I do that? Sep 16 12:39:20 hhf423, ipkg install bootchart. Sep 16 12:39:25 (i.e. you can connect to the neo from another device, I am not talking about connecting from the neo *to* another bluetooth server) Sep 16 12:39:32 rwhitby: I only used the Neo as a client for real, but I once connected from Windows to the Neo (Neo Server) Sep 16 12:39:33 hhf423, I can put the needed packages on my repo if you want Sep 16 12:39:52 hhf423: what server on the Neo? dund or pand? Sep 16 12:40:08 hhf423, oh, "that" refers to bluetooth. sry Sep 16 12:40:09 Ghiottone: if you're interested how a bootchart looks for me, I can run that, no problem. package would be nice then Sep 16 12:40:31 rwhitby: I used pand Sep 16 12:41:14 ok, I'm trying to get a dund server running so I can connect to the Neo from my Treo650. Sep 16 12:41:16 Ghiottone: no, "that" referred to bootchart Sep 16 12:41:37 ipkg install bootchart does not work for me Sep 16 12:41:46 rwhitby: but pad has server mode Sep 16 12:42:05 hhf423, oh ok. I'm about to upload the packages you need Sep 16 12:42:09 yes, but Treo650 doesn't do pan, only dun Sep 16 12:42:40 rwhitby: ah ok Sep 16 12:42:51 Ghiottone: ok, let me know when its there Sep 16 12:43:15 hhf423: however, I guess I could run a pand server on the NSLU2 as well, then have both the Treo and the Neo connected to the NSLU2 with it routing between them. Sep 16 12:43:18 I didn't know that something like bootchart exists. nice stuff Sep 16 12:43:50 hhf423: do you have any nice instructions for neo as a pan client? Sep 16 12:44:13 e.g. something that brings up networking via bnep whenever the neo comes in range of the pand server? Sep 16 12:45:14 I want the Neo to connect to, and become part of, then LANs at my home and my work, via bluetooth access points (NSLU2 at home, Iomega NAS100d at work) Sep 16 12:45:53 rwhitby: no, not really, but with pand, a pand -r -c did work very well. the rest, list interface configuration worked automagically, it just took two or three seconds after the pand commend Sep 16 12:47:04 rwhitby: if you want the Neo to connect via pand, then pand -r PANU -c -p should work Sep 16 12:47:20 rwhitby: -p will make the Neo connect as soon as it sees the server Sep 16 12:47:34 ok, let's see if I can get it to connect to the NSLU2 ... Sep 16 12:48:40 ok, that gives me pan0 in /proc/net/dev ... Sep 16 12:49:02 hmm - we don't have pan0 in /etc/network/interfaces Sep 16 12:49:31 rwhitby: depending on the target system you might need to be very explicit. At the beginning I though I needed to do pand -c 00:19:63:04:78:AB -r PANU -d NAP -e bnep0 -A -E -S, but then it showed that pand -c 00:19:63:04:78:AB -r PANU -A -E -S is enough, maybe even without -A -E -S Sep 16 12:50:27 rwhitby: you did edit the /etc/bluetooth/hcid.conf for a proper name and passkey, yes? Sep 16 12:50:53 heh - turning bluetooth back on after rebooting the neo helps :-) Sep 16 12:51:05 heh, yes, its off by default Sep 16 12:51:30 yeh, it should be on by default for this development phase, in my opinion Sep 16 12:51:44 rwhitby: ah, and one more thing: if you want to publish services on the Neo, you need to enable them in /etc/bluettoth/*.conf, e.g. network.conf Sep 16 12:52:00 sorry, network.service Sep 16 12:52:00 yeah, I got that bit Sep 16 12:52:38 hmm - maybe I need to learn about this avahi stuff ... Sep 16 12:53:08 avahi? Sep 16 12:53:44 yeah, I get some bnep0:ava entry from ifconfig Sep 16 12:54:03 it's the mDNS auto IP configuration stuff Sep 16 12:54:21 maybe I just need to run avahi on the nslu2 as well Sep 16 12:55:24 not to work out how to get bnep0 to automatically bridge with eth0 on the NSLU2 ... Sep 16 12:58:39 hhf423, packages should be online. you have to add also the all target. exact lines are on my userpage Sep 16 12:59:26 ah Sep 16 13:00:15 rwhitby: well, if you do not want to add additional routes in your default router of the networks, then you need to bridge, yes Sep 16 13:00:55 it was so much easier with dund and ppp with ktune and proxyarp :-) Sep 16 13:01:00 * hhf423 does ipkg update && ipkg install bootchart Sep 16 13:01:06 hahaha Sep 16 13:01:13 yeah, I'm going to work out how to route it Sep 16 13:01:35 ok, I can ping the nslu2 over bluetooth - sweet. Sep 16 13:01:47 :) Sep 16 13:01:55 rwhitby: from the neo? Sep 16 13:01:59 yep Sep 16 13:02:27 just set up a static IP on the nslu2 bnep0 (192.168.1.200) and .202 static on the bnep0 on the neo Sep 16 13:03:00 so I can have usb0 and bnep0 up at the same time, and have trunked ipkg upgrades over two network connections ... Sep 16 13:03:41 rwhitby: start a ping and see if thats stable. I sometimes had break bt connection after 1500 pings into the internet, but also got over 2500 pings (which is not a good measurement rate as the pig times were 300 to 3000ms via GPRS at that time) Sep 16 13:04:26 Ghiottone: hmm, still can't find bootchart in the repository Sep 16 13:06:58 hhf423: is a ping to the other end of the bluetooth link all you're after? I can leave one of those running overnight for the next 8 hours or so Sep 16 13:07:28 hhf423, did you add the "all" line? Sep 16 13:07:59 rwhitby: no, I am not after that. :-) I was just suggesting it so that you can easily if bt is stable Sep 16 13:08:59 hhf423: right, i meant is that the criteria that you suggest, just pinging the other end, and is that where you saw the link break? Sep 16 13:10:00 Ghiottone: ah, no, just added that Sep 16 13:10:46 rwhitby: yes, the bt connection broke, not my internet connection, I had to re-establish the pan (as I did not use -r that the time) Sep 16 13:11:46 hhf423: I wonder if I can set up two pan client connections (one for home and one for work), and just have them continually trying to reconnect? Sep 16 13:12:32 I can probably try that here - I have a Freecom FSG-3 router which I've added bluetooth to as well as the NSLU2. Sep 16 13:14:36 hhf423, is it working now Sep 16 13:14:37 hhf423, Sep 16 13:14:41 hhf423, ? Sep 16 13:14:48 rwhitby: sure, why should that be a problem (aside any power consumption) Sep 16 13:14:58 pft, newly compiled image gives me a shell (instead of running sysv init stuff), claiming "can't access tty; job control turned off" Sep 16 13:15:27 An error ocurred, return value: 1. / Collected errors: / ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for bootchart: / coreutils Sep 16 13:15:37 Ghiottone: got an error Sep 16 13:16:06 hhf423, you miss coreutils? uploading that too Sep 16 13:17:46 Ghiottone: yes, looks like it Sep 16 13:19:14 Ghiottone: I'm adding bootchart to task-openmoko-feed - any other packages I should add while I'm there? Sep 16 13:19:43 (then it will appear in the official feed the next time that mickeyl runs the builder) Sep 16 13:33:09 erm. if I get shitloads of [P[P[P[P scrolling by, instead of an Xserver, what is wrong? Sep 16 13:36:00 li099xx Sep 16 13:36:12 ? Sep 16 13:36:13 oops Sep 16 13:36:21 wrong window Sep 16 13:40:59 hhf423: 2200 pings and still going strong Sep 16 13:41:08 disconnected. Sep 16 13:41:35 hhf423, is bootchart working now? Sep 16 13:42:36 crap! gsm(d) chokes on my (ancient) SIM. That's what's wrong! Sep 16 13:43:04 or the kernel or whatever. Sep 16 13:51:47 Kero: how? Sep 16 13:52:04 no clue. Sep 16 13:52:07 how to debug? Sep 16 13:52:18 Kero: what happened? Sep 16 13:53:08 at some point, something chokes. then reboots. On first try, somewhere near starting X, after that, much earlier. Sep 16 13:53:14 taking out SIM remedies Sep 16 13:53:38 Kero: how old is that card? Sep 16 13:54:33 many years Sep 16 13:54:56 Kero: i would remove /etc/rc5.d/S35gsmd, start that by hand and look into /tmp/gsm.log Sep 16 13:55:21 emdete: ha :) just removed that file Sep 16 13:55:29 will reboot neo now Sep 16 13:55:39 Kero: :) Sep 16 13:58:28 not good enough. Sep 16 13:58:57 no, just excruciatingly slow, now Sep 16 13:59:20 where is the tree form of ps in busybox? Sep 16 13:59:34 not Sep 16 13:59:43 Most busybox features are not ehre. Sep 16 14:00:20 or rather Sep 16 14:00:29 the busybox versions lack many features. Sep 16 14:01:15 right. then I guess the gsm applet starts gsmd when it is not running ? Sep 16 14:06:36 libmokogsmd tried (it says so itself, on the console. now.) Sep 16 14:08:15 (on a side note, who causes this? "sh: /usr/bin/cpp: not found") Sep 16 14:08:24 where? Sep 16 14:08:31 console Sep 16 14:08:32 there is no compiler on the neo Sep 16 14:08:39 of course there's no compiler :) Sep 16 14:09:14 I only tell wat I see, and I have ab-so-lu-te-ly no idea what tries to run one ;) Sep 16 14:09:22 cpp is the c preprocessor Sep 16 14:11:43 mm, true. so what wouldl use the preprocessor? Sep 16 14:12:13 Dunno Sep 16 14:12:16 whoa, just gsmd, 33% of CPU used by events/0 Sep 16 14:12:55 rwhitby, ping? Sep 16 14:13:15 ghiottone: gu Sep 16 14:13:57 rwhitby, did you have a look at the patch? is it enough? Sep 16 14:14:08 oh, sorry, been busy with bluetooth stuff Sep 16 14:14:56 rwhitby, np. I'd just like to know if it needs other work. otherwise I'll concentrate on other things Sep 16 14:15:08 ghiottone: what if I've checked it out via svn+ssh instead of http ? Sep 16 14:15:33 you broke setup-openmoko-developer too Sep 16 14:15:48 (note the https in that target) Sep 16 14:15:54 rwhitby, it should be enough to change root to https Sep 16 14:15:57 rwhitby, yes Sep 16 14:16:25 no, people without write access should only be using http, not https. Sep 16 14:16:53 I use https as well because it only works this way with http proxies Sep 16 14:17:19 ok, bootchart did install now Sep 16 14:17:28 however I'll change it to use two variables Sep 16 14:17:41 ghiottone: so do I just have to reboot to have bootcharts do its thing? Sep 16 14:17:42 hhf423, oh great :) Sep 16 14:17:52 ghiottone: just leave the protocol off the variable Sep 16 14:18:08 hhf423, you have to add init=/sbin/bootchartd to the bootargs_base variable Sep 16 14:18:31 uh oh Sep 16 14:18:59 hhf423, use cutecom Sep 16 14:19:38 ghiottone: for that I would need to change to my linux box, can do that later Sep 16 14:20:55 oh, a new kernel and a new image on buildhost Sep 16 14:21:07 thats incentive enough to bott the linux box :-) Sep 16 14:21:09 brb Sep 16 14:24:39 rwhitby, ok. how do I specify empty string with grep? Sep 16 14:24:47 ^$ Sep 16 14:24:52 matches the empty line Sep 16 14:24:58 rwhitby, like grep http[s] Sep 16 14:25:14 http[s]? - 0 or 1 s's Sep 16 14:25:44 SpeedEvil, so does it match both http:// and https:// ? Sep 16 14:25:48 yes Sep 16 14:25:56 actually - https? Sep 16 14:26:32 SpeedEvil, sorry? Sep 16 14:26:38 ~seen zecke Sep 16 14:26:41 hm. gsmd seems to run fine by hand. can query it with libgsmd-tool Sep 16 14:26:41 zecke is currently on #openmoko (1m 21s), last said: 'oh, get well soon'. Sep 16 14:26:50 can not ener PIN succesfully, tho Sep 16 14:27:18 re Sep 16 14:27:26 * hhf423 does the dfu-util dance Sep 16 14:27:40 alphaone: hi Sep 16 14:27:40 what's the new kernel version? Sep 16 14:27:50 zecke: Hi Sep 16 14:27:59 ghiottone: uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r0-fic-gta01.bin Sep 16 14:28:19 Do you know when you'll be here? Sep 16 14:29:08 alphaone: 18:30 frankfurt hbf Sep 16 14:29:22 alphaone: I'm sitting in a ICE and just crossed the dutch border Sep 16 14:29:28 SpeedEvil, oh ok thank you Sep 16 14:29:56 zecke: Ah, cool. See you then. Sep 16 14:30:31 uh, why has the kernel -r0 ? were we not at -r2 yet? Sep 16 14:30:40 hehe Sep 16 14:30:55 zecke: does the ICE actually go at high speed in .nl at all ? Sep 16 14:31:06 ghiottone: err - for some reason I don't understand, that doesn't quite work. https*: works as I expected Sep 16 14:31:11 byt not https?: Sep 16 14:31:23 * zecke is always wondering why so many bad parents exist... Sep 16 14:32:02 zecke: how do you define "bad parent"? Sep 16 14:33:37 zecke: but of course the reason is obvious: anybody who finds someone to mate with can be come a parent basically. no training required. often not even a conscious decision required. Sep 16 14:34:01 Quick question, the neo runs on 2.5G yeah? Sep 16 14:34:16 hhf423: screaming at their children to shut up, and not having any patience... Sep 16 14:34:33 MickeyFinns: it uses GSM for calls and GPRS for data if thats your question Sep 16 14:34:34 hhf423: i know how difficult a long journey can be... but some parents... Sep 16 14:34:42 MickeyFinns: it does not support EDGE Sep 16 14:35:03 hhf423: I'm basically trying to figure out is compatibility in the UK. Sep 16 14:35:16 SpeedEvil, oh, confirmed. thank you Sep 16 14:36:33 MickeyFinns: it should work in all UK networks given a compatible SIM. AFAIK all UK networks support GSM (call & data) and GPRS, no? Sep 16 14:36:38 grep - asb does not matche the regex as?b, awk it does. Sep 16 14:36:55 Because right now there is iPhone problems, O2 are activating 2.5G on their network to allow the iPhone and I got the impression the neo was the sae? Sep 16 14:37:12 alas no. Sep 16 14:37:23 zecke: yeah, well. but then again some children can be a real pain ... Sep 16 14:37:24 Not this, nor the next version. Sep 16 14:38:11 So it will operate over the standard networks? Sep 16 14:38:17 zecke: I believe that current stats is that part of the behavious is genetics, not all is education, so even if you find a nice women, you never know what you're going to get :-) Sep 16 14:38:23 yes. Sep 16 14:38:25 mick Sep 16 14:39:01 Ok brilliant. Sep 16 14:39:12 MickeyFinns: the .5 in 2.5 which is ment in the iphone context is EDGE. Neo does not do EDGE, only GPRS Sep 16 14:39:37 Ballpark - you get 4-5Kilobytes/second data transfer. Sep 16 14:39:42 and 200-2000ms pings Sep 16 14:40:04 make that 200-3000+ depending on how busy your line is Sep 16 14:40:17 I've only seen 2000, but... Sep 16 14:40:29 hhf423: Ok im reading up the wiki on Edge right now, new to mobile communication standards haha. Sep 16 14:40:39 yeah Sep 16 14:40:49 I have seen 3000+ when I was doing ipkg update/upgrade over GPRS at the same time Sep 16 14:41:30 neo won't be the fastest cell web browser, alas; at least it's good for plenty of nifty presence and stuff Sep 16 14:41:31 MickeyFinns: EDGE is sort of a enhanced and optimized GPRS Sep 16 14:41:55 *nod* Sep 16 14:41:55 hhf423: Just seems to be higher bandwith. Sep 16 14:41:58 how do I get mokomakefile to update the list of packages, without building openmoko-devel-image ? Sep 16 14:42:11 hello Sep 16 14:42:16 high-end edge sort of qualifies as 3g for bw... Sep 16 14:42:16 I'd just like to build a task depending on all the packages and have the list rebuilt Sep 16 14:42:31 mjr: right. I don't really need YouTube on my mobile, presence stuff, IM, mail download, web pages, discussion boards, irc etc. Sep 16 14:42:55 mjr: the only thing where better-than-GPRS would be nice is google maps etc. Sep 16 14:42:56 colloquially edge is sometimes called 2.75G Sep 16 14:43:25 * SpeedEvil wonders if the wiki is down. Sep 16 14:43:32 oh - no, there it goes. Sep 16 14:43:43 MickeyFinns: well, "just", year. Tell that to yourself when you wait for google maps to show you your location Sep 16 14:43:43 SpeedEvil: the wiki is down Sep 16 14:43:52 So do any of you guys have any advice for someone interested in developing apps for OpenMoko? Sep 16 14:43:56 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:Proxy would greatly improve browsing performance. Sep 16 14:43:59 oh, back up Sep 16 14:44:07 (hell, I'm on gprs right now, on a laptop tether; web browsing is still usable, if not quite snappy...) Sep 16 14:44:21 As in often an order of magnitude. Sep 16 14:44:39 Compressing pages based on differentials between the page and the cached page Sep 16 14:44:59 hhf423: how do I do the initial pairing when the neo is a bt client to a pand NAP ? Sep 16 14:45:08 does anybody know how to add an application shortcut to list in OpenMoko "plus" icon (I don't know how to call it) Sep 16 14:45:18 mjr: sure, that works. I have been on a train HH - Cologne once, had GPRS all the time (5h) and could do basically anything. As long as the connection is stable a little waiting is not an issue Sep 16 14:45:47 hhf423, yeah I'm on gprs on train trips all the time also Sep 16 14:46:09 but don't get me wrong, when the neo is a resounding success and they'll make a 3g version, I'm first in line ;) Sep 16 14:46:51 I was reading about cameras being a no go on the neo because it allows them to keep the corporate market? Anyone know any facts to do with this? Sep 16 14:46:52 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (also some model next year probably will gave camera module: http://www.channelweb.co.uk/vnunet/news/2192036/first-open-source-mobile-phone ) Sep 16 14:46:53 oh joy, now my old phone says the sim is blocked. and gives me no way to enter any sort of code. Sep 16 14:46:53 rwhitby: it should do that on its own when you do the pand -c . As in, nothing required on the Neo, but on the host you need to accept the pairing and type in the key you defined in /etc/bluetooth/hicbla.conf Sep 16 14:46:58 It would be nice to have the compressing server working. Ebay - for example - the pages are dynamic. If you download every time you get a change, you get 60K download. Compressed, it's 15K, compressed according to the difference between the current and cached version, and it's under a K Sep 16 14:47:15 mjr: and I'll be breathing down your neck :-) Sep 16 14:47:16 SpeedEvil, *nod* Sep 16 14:47:21 hhf423: what if the host is a router with no console? Sep 16 14:48:28 rwhitby: then probably the bt keys in both configs must match Sep 16 14:49:22 rwhitby: when I was PANd'ing to my UMTS phone, I only ever had to key the bt pin into the UMTS phone Sep 16 14:49:53 * mjr currently uses ssh -C'd proxy redirect Sep 16 14:49:58 right, but I'm PANing to an nslu2, which does not have a GUI, so no obvious way to type in a PIN Sep 16 14:50:32 rwhitby: or maybe the nsls2 has some "acceppt all bt connections" mode? Sep 16 14:50:56 hhf423: how would you do it if you were connecting from one neo to another - that's basically the case here. Sep 16 14:51:15 (since the nslu2 is running the exact same bluez-utils built from OE that the neo runs) Sep 16 14:51:39 rwhitby: I would first try to set the bt key to the same on both .conf Sep 16 14:51:51 rwhitby: does that not work? Sep 16 14:52:04 that does not work Sep 16 14:52:08 MickeyFinns, since you're not getting facts, I'll just hypothesize that the no-camera design is inherited and the usual business-friendly comments are just to point out that it's not purely bad. But I dunno. Sep 16 14:52:40 rwhitby: did you try to pair via that hidtool? Sep 16 14:52:52 rwhitby: ah, forget that thought Sep 16 14:53:00 one can easily imagine that a design that started out for the Chinese government might not have a camera in it ;-) Sep 16 14:54:27 mjr: Ok thanks, personally its not an issue from a consumer perspective but it would be alot of fun to code apps that utilize it. Sep 16 14:55:48 as for me, the powered usb host in gta02 is quite sufficient for camera needs - I gave a good quality pocket cam with me anyways , and that allows me to transfer pics if necessary :] Sep 16 14:56:03 (yesyes, not universally applicable) Sep 16 14:56:18 * SpeedEvil is attempting to make a kit to enable users to upgrade their GTA01's Sep 16 14:56:31 3-axis Accelerometer, powered USB Sep 16 14:56:33 rwhitby: I'd be more worried about a censorship and wiretap module, amazing that roughlydrafted didn't pick up on that one. Sep 16 14:56:55 doesn't the gta02 have a fast processor aswell? Sep 16 14:57:01 Faster Sep 16 14:57:04 1.5* Sep 16 14:57:11 266 -> 400 ? Sep 16 14:57:17 rwhitby, do you want an email with the new patch? or still a pastebin? Sep 16 14:57:28 yes MickeyFinns Sep 16 14:57:41 ghiottone: better email - I won't be getting to it tonight Sep 16 14:58:23 rwhitby, ok. what's the address? Sep 16 14:58:30 hmmm, uploading to scap does not work? Sep 16 14:58:36 but really, though, when these phone things are entrenched, I want an openmoko pocket cam; this panasonic thingy, while technically good, has some "fuck you" software limitations Sep 16 14:58:45 ghiottone: check /msg Sep 16 14:58:57 I can't understand why nobody makes a bluetooth camera. Sep 16 14:59:00 rwhitby, I'm leaving shortly. So I probably won't work anymore on it till tomorrow Sep 16 14:59:07 SpeedEvil, yeah, and there's that Sep 16 14:59:15 ˆWell - they do Sep 16 14:59:20 If you spend insane money Sep 16 14:59:29 I was just about to say Sep 16 14:59:36 also wifi Sep 16 14:59:44 wifi is another issue Sep 16 14:59:45 but bt should be cheap Sep 16 14:59:47 wifi is much higher power Sep 16 15:00:04 I mean something like a megapixel camera with BT Sep 16 15:00:12 *nod* Sep 16 15:02:02 Multimegapixel would be nice, but I don't want 10 megapixel with replacement lenses, that works underwater. Which seems basically the only things that have BT. Sep 16 15:02:19 indeed Sep 16 15:02:42 I'd want a high-end pocketcam with bt, though, but even those seemed nonexistent Sep 16 15:03:03 it's the "real" high end where there's wireless comms, not "consumer" high-end Sep 16 15:04:08 but yeah, when when they have this cell phone market down pat, an openmoko cam. Yes. Sep 16 15:04:18 Is multi-touch likely anytime soon? Sep 16 15:04:43 no Sep 16 15:05:03 Multitouch means new hardware Sep 16 15:05:08 Shame, you think the tech would be alot cheaper now since the iPhone. Sep 16 15:06:36 nope, probably more expensive due it being patented up the wazoo Sep 16 15:07:01 True true. Sep 16 15:07:38 * rwhitby is beaten by neo to neo bluetooth pairing, so goes to bed. Sep 16 15:07:54 nite rwhitby Sep 16 15:07:58 and goodbye all Sep 16 15:21:48 night rwhitby , bye ghiottone Sep 16 15:25:08 Are there any plans to implement VoIP with the wifi in the new Neo? Sep 16 15:27:34 vague ideas, sure Sep 16 15:27:58 Its surely feasable. Sep 16 15:28:18 MickeyFinns: you can ipkg install asterisk today... :-) Sep 16 15:28:32 ? Sep 16 15:29:13 Lo, I want one, I want one, I want one :D Sep 16 15:29:36 But... UK guy here, does it work fine (in terms of GPRS and GSM) over here and is there any UK sellers of this yet? Sep 16 15:29:37 Cyorxamp: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 16 15:29:52 I jsut asked this question haha, Sep 16 15:29:58 The UK one? Sep 16 15:30:01 Yeah Sep 16 15:30:07 What was the answer? Sep 16 15:30:20 there's plenty of european developers, functionality sounds like it's slowly coming together Sep 16 15:30:33 Nah not developers... sellers :P Sep 16 15:30:33 In terms of supply you have to buy from the original site. Sep 16 15:30:39 AH ok, fair enough Sep 16 15:30:58 Cyorxamp: i'm talking in terms of it working on european GSM networks. Sep 16 15:31:12 Release is next month and you might find them here in some stores although i doubt it. Sep 16 15:31:13 I presume that when the final one comes out, it'll be more software changes that will self-update than anything lacking hardware-wise ? Sep 16 15:31:40 Its more a network problem than the device Sep 16 15:31:41 there's a new hardware rev coming out in a few months with wifi and other features Sep 16 15:32:04 The phone will work fine with calls and text, however, the quality of the GPRS is limited. Sep 16 15:32:08 cjb_ie: Oh yeah wifi... oops, forgot about that - I'll wait Sep 16 15:32:26 But with the new Wifi GPRS is less of an issue if your in a city or office etc. Sep 16 15:32:47 Definately wait for the new revision. Sep 16 15:33:00 Yup, I nearly bought an N800 a few weeks back Sep 16 15:33:19 With Sharp out of the arena... it's Nokia or OpenMoko Sep 16 15:33:23 You planning to develop or just use? Sep 16 15:33:27 Both :D Sep 16 15:33:27 I got myself a N700 so cheap as they are. very nice device Sep 16 15:33:51 Same haha, you a student or something? Sep 16 15:34:15 Ended uni err about a year ago now Sep 16 15:34:28 I currently use a Zaurus 5500 Sep 16 15:34:38 You study Comp Sci? Sep 16 15:34:44 Software Engineering Sep 16 15:35:30 Nice about to choose my Masters and Software Engineering is an option. Where did you study? Sep 16 15:35:46 Bradford, and no - I don't recommend there :P Sep 16 15:36:24 haha. Nah im about to start my second year and they want Masters decisions before xmas. Looking at Computational Management. Sep 16 15:36:51 So are we talking October for the Wifi version or after Xmas? Sep 16 15:37:12 Current date is December, but might get delayed. Sep 16 15:37:41 Ok, I'll consider it a xmas present :D Sep 16 15:37:49 Thats what im hoping haha. Sep 16 15:38:09 You can download an emulator if you want to start developing. Sep 16 15:38:12 I take it apart from the N800... theres nothing else even close? Sep 16 15:38:42 the GreenPhone? And if google goes ahead with GPhone, although not sure how open that will be. Sep 16 15:39:02 Also the iphone hackers will have it open for devlopment in 6 months or something. Sep 16 15:39:22 Nah don't like GreenPhone - looks like well.. a Phone Sep 16 15:39:28 Heres the emulator; Sep 16 15:39:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Sep 16 15:39:34 I like the PDA first... Phone second approach Sep 16 15:40:12 Yeah Sep 16 15:40:41 http://www.phoronix.com/?page=news_item&px=NTk1Mw Sep 16 15:40:54 the N800 does not have GSM/GPRS, no? Sep 16 15:40:59 Nope Sep 16 15:41:20 To be honest i wouldnt be in the market if this device didnt have the ease of devlopment. Im a student cant justify £350 on a device just for use haha gotta fiddle with it for it to be worth it. Sep 16 15:42:05 So far I've been a Jornada 928 user (one of the first PDA/Phones) and now just a plan PDA user of the Sharp 5500 with seperate Nokia phone Sep 16 15:42:07 350 quid? its dollars Sep 16 15:42:15 So to combine them again, with Linux - bliss Sep 16 15:42:34 The new Advance kit will be $600 plus shipping and VAT. Will be like £350 Sep 16 15:44:37 http://www.fonearena.com/blog/2007/08/31/is-gphone-is-openmoko.html Sep 16 15:44:46 Umm, is that picture real? Is that a gPhone ? Sep 16 15:45:16 Dont be silly haha. Sep 16 15:45:30 :D Sep 16 15:45:38 http://www.pocketpicks.co.uk/latest/index.php/2007/03/13/g-phone-image-sparks-fresh-rumours/ Sep 16 15:45:47 this one is more likely, although its crap. Sep 16 15:46:16 MickeyFinns: ah, ok, if you need the advance kit... you are planning to to kernel development? Sep 16 15:47:11 I would like to, in my third year 08/09 of my degree we have to build a Linux based OS and i was planning to do app developemnt until then and them switch to kernal. Sep 16 15:47:55 then probably advance kit is necessary Sep 16 15:48:22 another Mickey Sep 16 15:48:23 Yeah, il probably start tinkering before Sep 16 15:48:33 the OS module starts. Sep 16 15:50:57 Right now I flee, good chatting :D Sep 16 15:52:42 The iphone hackers may or may not have their hacked versions open. If apple however chooses to, they can completely close all the holes, and turn off network access to the hacked phones. Sep 16 15:53:05 Feline in, Feline out. Sep 16 15:53:06 oops Sep 16 15:53:48 Is that equivalent to GIGO? Sep 16 15:54:04 or maybe just a cat flap Sep 16 15:54:23 No, someone said something .......cut buffer... Sep 16 15:54:32 and I commented that I misread it as cat buffer Sep 16 15:54:35 mischan Sep 16 16:07:16 miew Sep 16 16:13:48 any rumors about shipment date? Sep 16 16:14:06 * SpeedEvil guts a chicken. Sep 16 16:14:06 not heard anything Sep 16 16:14:17 December 23 Sep 16 16:14:26 damn it must be some rumors. It's 16, the guy of the sales told me it was Sep 20... Sep 16 16:14:29 Entrail-reading is a valuable IT skill. Sep 16 16:14:30 Just in time for xmas haha. Sep 16 16:14:57 SpeedEvil: i'm talking about GTA01 Sep 16 16:15:04 ah Sep 16 16:15:21 Thats early october last i read. Sep 16 16:15:57 bedboi: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280151760236&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018 Sep 16 16:16:20 Your order is still fine so far. But we are temporarily short of stock. Sep 16 16:16:21 Our next batch have enough amount to fulfill everyone, the ETA is Sep 16 16:16:21 September 20. Sep 16 16:17:11 still 20th then, oki, been bouncing a bit Sep 16 16:17:54 i've asked what ETA means Sep 16 16:18:08 is it a forecast, or is it a real date Sep 16 16:18:19 estimated time of arrival Sep 16 16:18:23 is it "around 20+1month" Sep 16 16:19:02 if it is 20+max(6 days) it's ok with me, otherwise i won't be able to receive the package Sep 16 16:19:08 which is REALLY too bad Sep 16 16:19:52 I think with ETA they mean when its in the US Sep 16 16:20:29 that would be good. i'm in the US 'till oct 6th Sep 16 16:20:29 then they have to unpack, repack, bill you and ship it. Which will take more than 6 days. Sep 16 16:20:37 LOL Sep 16 16:20:47 hhf423: make a tribal dance? Sep 16 16:21:41 sorry, it = "the shipment" from wherever to FIC US. Thats a container or something with all the phones. Nor your individual phone. Sep 16 16:21:42 i clearly stated "I'll cancel the order, the guy didn't tell me anything about packing/unpacking" Sep 16 16:21:47 (from the IRC backlog) Sep 16 16:21:59 Kero: it's X itself which uses cpp for some obscure purpose Sep 16 16:22:13 polz: make build-package-package-index Sep 16 16:24:02 I am just guessing. But so far when the OpenMoko guys talked about shipping, they always meant the shipment from the factory to the US, not individual phones. These guys totally do not get it and totally do not answer questions from a customer perspective. I mean, what does a customer care what their internal logistics are? We only want to know when they will be shipping stuff to individual... Sep 16 16:24:03 ...customers. Sep 16 16:25:01 hhf423: yep exactly. I don't care nothing about internal stuff. I want to know when my damn pseudo-phone will arrive. Sep 16 16:25:15 because i have real issues Sep 16 16:25:34 if the package arrives after oct 6th i'm fucked up Sep 16 16:26:00 bedboi, perhaps you can give them your new address? Sep 16 16:26:39 you want him to give away his secret lair location? Sep 16 16:26:52 The point is, when I hear "We are shipping the phones next week", I think "oh, shipping phones via UPS to us, the customers." but they actually mean "FIC taiwan ships to FIC USA where the container needs to go through customs, then needs to be unpacked, customers need to be billed and after billing went through, stuff gets shipped via UPS" Sep 16 16:27:05 how can he rule the world if everyone knows where hs secret base is Sep 16 16:27:31 tuukkah: my new address is in italy Sep 16 16:27:50 bedboi, shouldn't matter Sep 16 16:27:57 bedboi: so let the phone be shipped to italy. italy is not a problem. Sep 16 16:28:00 tuukkah: it matters Sep 16 16:28:08 hhf423: not to mention the face the non US people effectively susidised the cost for the US people Sep 16 16:28:08 it costs me +60$ Sep 16 16:28:21 s/face/fact/ Sep 16 16:28:21 ScaredyCat meant: hhf423: not to mention the fact the non US people effectively susidised the cost for the US people Sep 16 16:28:44 ScaredyCat: how so? Sep 16 16:28:50 ScaredyCat: do you think so? probably shipping via UPS from US is one of the cheapest ways Sep 16 16:29:02 bedboi, yeah like it costs everyone else on this planet not in america Sep 16 16:29:32 because the whole lot was shipped to the US Sep 16 16:29:47 ScaredyCat: the interesting question is probably if most of the phones go to US people Sep 16 16:29:53 so non us people effectively paid shipping for the us people Sep 16 16:29:54 tuukkah: for me is insane to pay 80$ for shipment. Sep 16 16:30:00 s/is/it's/ Sep 16 16:30:00 bedboi meant: tuukkah: for me it's insane to pay 80$ for shipment. Sep 16 16:30:12 but its not 80 anymore I think Sep 16 16:30:19 its less than 50 Sep 16 16:30:40 bedboi, welcome to europe :-) more seriously, we all hope the phones arrive soon Sep 16 16:31:50 bedboi: get a Neo from ebay Sep 16 16:33:42 * SpeedEvil offers again his services as a european transshipment point. Sep 16 16:33:45 shipping to europe is 50 USD Sep 16 16:33:55 Though practically, I suppose VAT'd kill that. Sep 16 16:34:06 Actually - not - thinking about it. Sep 16 16:34:22 hm would it be possible to add a 4 gb microsd card to the scope of delivery? I think fic can buy the cards in large masses and can save a few dollars. Sep 16 16:34:31 * ScaredyCat paid +87 Euro (on top of shipping (120 iirc)) Sep 16 16:34:43 SpeedEvil: well, EU recipients have to pay VAT anyway if stuff comes from outside EU Sep 16 16:34:44 PBeck: I really doubt it. Sep 16 16:34:51 cjb_ie: yes, I realised that Sep 16 16:35:40 SpeedEvil: you just want to syphone off phones and list them as "lost" and build a neo beowulf cluster - don't you? Sep 16 16:35:41 :) Sep 16 16:35:44 SpeedEvil: a 4 gb card would be cool :) Sep 16 16:35:55 Naah. Sep 16 16:36:12 SpeedEvil: perhaps accessories? Sep 16 16:36:23 * hhf423 just ordered a 4gb card for less than 50 EUR Sep 16 16:36:27 syphone .... hehhe what an appropriate spelling mistake Sep 16 16:36:37 cjb_ie: unless you bring it in personally on your person and its under some maximum declaration limit\ Sep 16 16:36:43 ah, I think it was even less than 40 EUR Sep 16 16:37:36 ScaredyCat: intentional :) Sep 16 16:41:15 remind me, what does `neod` do? Sep 16 16:41:35 follows the white rabbit Sep 16 16:41:39 on request Sep 16 16:42:09 after taking a pill that's either red or blue? Sep 16 16:43:45 Kero, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neod Sep 16 16:43:51 must be running fast. it decided to take 100% cpu for it Sep 16 16:44:45 with all this gsmd messing aroun, I'm starting to think I messed up my image a bit... Sep 16 16:51:42 Do you know how to cancel? Sep 16 16:51:56 i mean how to cancel the order Sep 16 16:53:07 i've just sent a mail, i hope it's enough Sep 16 16:56:52 bedboi: how long ago did you put your order in? Sep 16 17:01:42 raster: two weeks ago Sep 16 17:02:00 ooh Sep 16 17:02:03 thats not long Sep 16 17:02:07 i'm not saying i'm waiting for too long Sep 16 17:02:18 but i have problems with shipment Sep 16 17:02:26 i have seen deliveries from the states to the australia take 3-4 weeks Sep 16 17:02:27 direct Sep 16 17:02:33 i'm quite sure the item won't arrive BEFORE oct 6th Sep 16 17:02:43 they can spend a week just futzing around and getting it to .au Sep 16 17:02:48 then sitting in customs for weeks Sep 16 17:03:02 i'm in the US 'till that day Sep 16 17:03:21 then i'm back in italy. Sep 16 17:03:23 do u have a friend u can divert it to? Sep 16 17:03:47 whats the delivery status? Sep 16 17:03:49 the problem is then the shipment to italy or to france. I'm in a really nomadic situation Sep 16 17:03:54 (sorry i'm not up on the status) Sep 16 17:04:04 oh Sep 16 17:04:05 raster: ahaha, that's the QUESTION Sep 16 17:04:16 get6ting anything delivered when you are nomadic is impossible Sep 16 17:04:19 i'd never even bother Sep 16 17:04:23 i've tried before Sep 16 17:04:38 from "your credit card address does not match your shippign address" Sep 16 17:04:41 propblems Sep 16 17:04:50 to "it's delivered but sitting in customs for weeks" problems Sep 16 17:04:52 no no. here i have a bank accoun Sep 16 17:04:53 t Sep 16 17:05:01 i have learnt not to bother unless u are settled Sep 16 17:05:07 sure Sep 16 17:05:16 my point is that its a minefiled of problems Sep 16 17:05:25 raster: this won't happen before feb 2008 Sep 16 17:05:28 so have you checked on delivery status? Sep 16 17:05:37 raster: there's no delivery status to check Sep 16 17:05:43 have you asked? Sep 16 17:05:46 all is managed by mails Sep 16 17:05:51 sure Sep 16 17:05:58 send a mail off to find out what the status is Sep 16 17:06:02 for all you know its a week away Sep 16 17:06:03 Your order is still fine so far. But we are temporarily short of stock. Sep 16 17:06:03 Our next batch have enough amount to fulfill everyone, the ETA is Sep 16 17:06:03 September 20. Sep 16 17:06:07 this is the last one i received. Sep 16 17:06:15 the problem is what ETA means. Sep 16 17:06:22 that's the whole point. Sep 16 17:06:22 sept 20 beats oct6 by a fair margin Sep 16 17:06:29 no, it doesn't Sep 16 17:06:29 ok sure Sep 16 17:06:40 lets assume ETA is within 3 days either side Sep 16 17:06:44 thats still a big margin Sep 16 17:06:48 nope. Sep 16 17:07:14 on the website it was written that the next batch will be shipped on sept 10th Sep 16 17:07:17 which is not the case Sep 16 17:07:22 so i can't trust Sep 16 17:07:46 shipped Sep 16 17:07:49 leaving factory Sep 16 17:07:50 ah excuse me, it is stated "not before sept 10th" Sep 16 17:07:50 most likely Sep 16 17:08:01 not before is just lower bound Sep 16 17:08:02 andf arrivign sept 20 in the states is not unreasonable Sep 16 17:08:08 people MUST state upper bounds Sep 16 17:08:22 yea but i have no feedback Sep 16 17:08:26 but their ARRIVAL eta is 20th Sep 16 17:08:31 control without feedback is impossible Sep 16 17:08:36 intl shipping can never give and exact date Sep 16 17:08:38 ever Sep 16 17:08:43 customs basically stop that Sep 16 17:08:51 sure Sep 16 17:08:52 raster: that's why i'm canceling Sep 16 17:09:03 i understand your furstration Sep 16 17:09:08 :) Sep 16 17:09:12 what's the reason for shipping via the US anyway? Sep 16 17:09:32 but maybe you want to contact and find out the status first Sep 16 17:09:42 then if need be, cancel Sep 16 17:09:55 it is unfair on openmoko to in-fath ship a product Sep 16 17:10:03 and afte4r incurring the costs to ship it Sep 16 17:10:06 have you cancel it Sep 16 17:10:25 and then even pay to chip it back? Sep 16 17:10:30 incur customs duties Sep 16 17:10:31 etc. Sep 16 17:10:38 no no. Sep 16 17:10:54 i didn't receive any reply since 2 days Sep 16 17:11:03 its a weekend Sep 16 17:11:09 which is even quite annoying. Sep 16 17:11:16 damn it's 21st century Sep 16 17:11:25 openmoko is a small operation Sep 16 17:11:27 right now Sep 16 17:11:32 even in italy customer care work damn in the weekend Sep 16 17:11:32 only a few people working on it Sep 16 17:11:40 it's so simple to just check mails Sep 16 17:11:40 openmoko is a small operation. Sep 16 17:11:40 they dont have a "customer care" dept Sep 16 17:11:49 they dont even have departments Sep 16 17:11:51 it is very small Sep 16 17:11:57 Posting a line of status per week, per dev is not however hard. Sep 16 17:11:58 its a few people - a startup. Sep 16 17:12:00 Or time consuming Sep 16 17:12:17 so give them a bit of slack Sep 16 17:12:23 and wait until monday Sep 16 17:12:27 how much would it cost to hire one office admin to take care of all the stuff the devs don't want to know about? Sep 16 17:12:38 by the time you wake up monday - they may have a response Sep 16 17:12:48 cjb_ie: no idea Sep 16 17:13:05 by that time i won't be able to ebay the neo Sep 16 17:13:10 :) Sep 16 17:13:40 all i can say is Sep 16 17:13:44 i have met the moko guys Sep 16 17:13:46 its a SMALL op Sep 16 17:13:50 they are building up Sep 16 17:14:02 so they are going through growing pains Sep 16 17:14:05 Small does not mean you have to give the impression of incompetence. Sep 16 17:14:08 even trying to set up a working office Sep 16 17:14:12 and still meet delivery dates Sep 16 17:14:17 SpeedEvil: true Sep 16 17:14:20 SpeedEvil: i damn agree with you Sep 16 17:14:21 which the direct.openmoko.com page does to a large extent Sep 16 17:14:30 ooh, harsh Sep 16 17:14:50 To those who don't understand how small the team is I mean. Sep 16 17:14:52 but expecting an answer on a weekend from a small team and being upset you didnt get it is a little much Sep 16 17:14:54 hi, i didn't find on the website any link to get the sources, where's that? Sep 16 17:14:56 maybe i'm just too forgiving/patient Sep 16 17:14:57 :) Sep 16 17:15:28 raster: no, i have a small company. i work EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE Sep 16 17:15:44 i can't expect having day offs Sep 16 17:15:54 not a single one. Sep 16 17:15:59 it's normal when you are small Sep 16 17:16:03 the peolpe who see your emails for cusotmer support are not woners Sep 16 17:16:04 it makes sense. Sep 16 17:16:07 of a single man company Sep 16 17:16:10 they are staff Sep 16 17:16:13 (i think) Sep 16 17:16:20 bedboi: that's a choice every small company can take for itself. Sep 16 17:16:25 and they get paid to work mon-fri 9-5 Sep 16 17:16:26 or whatever Sep 16 17:16:45 dont get me wrong Sep 16 17:16:51 i understand you are frustrated Sep 16 17:16:59 but just give them a chance Sep 16 17:17:03 be a little patient Sep 16 17:17:26 A little patient - several months of no word on shipment times... Sep 16 17:17:37 yep that's not patience :) Sep 16 17:17:37 hehe Sep 16 17:17:40 it's stupidity Sep 16 17:17:50 not sure about that Sep 16 17:17:55 but the specifics i hear here are Sep 16 17:17:59 2 weeks aog order placed Sep 16 17:18:05 raster: nope Sep 16 17:18:05 eta of sept 20 given Sep 16 17:18:10 rabble: wait a moment Sep 16 17:18:11 thats what you said? Sep 16 17:18:25 bedboi: how long ago did you put your order in? Sep 16 17:18:25 raster: two weeks ago Sep 16 17:18:27 i'm waiting for GTA01 since 4 months. then i decided Sep 16 17:18:45 when all this shipment delays came up Sep 16 17:18:58 i decided "ok i won't place an oreder now" Sep 16 17:19:03 i'll wait for the next batch Sep 16 17:19:19 raster: and it is not a matter of how much you are waiting for Sep 16 17:19:22 it's nonsense Sep 16 17:19:25 but you didnt lace an order until 2 weeks ago? Sep 16 17:19:42 yep. Sep 16 17:19:45 until you place an order - it's pretty moot imho. Sep 16 17:20:15 do you blame him for not wanting to stick $ into a machine without knowing if/when results will appear? Sep 16 17:20:15 until then its just wishing and hoping. Sep 16 17:20:29 anrp: yep that's the case Sep 16 17:20:30 people did that for years for the ps3 Sep 16 17:20:32 and wii Sep 16 17:20:33 and 360 Sep 16 17:20:35 for example Sep 16 17:20:37 ...and? Sep 16 17:20:39 raster: who cares Sep 16 17:20:45 anrp: absolutely not. Sep 16 17:20:48 its fair enough Sep 16 17:20:59 raster: that does not make a point Sep 16 17:21:06 it does Sep 16 17:21:09 until you make an order Sep 16 17:21:26 you have not said "deliver me one of your goodies" Sep 16 17:21:27 the stuff was sold out Sep 16 17:21:45 Not indicating to potential customers how long they have to wait is insane. In large part, they've overthought the store. Sep 16 17:21:51 Put the things on ebay. Sep 16 17:22:05 Lots of cheap ready-canned software. Sep 16 17:22:13 Live count of how many have sold. Sep 16 17:22:35 SpeedEvil: oh - thats another matter entirely :) Sep 16 17:22:48 i'm only looking at the specifics of this 1 case Sep 16 17:23:02 order placed on 3rd or so of sept Sep 16 17:23:08 eta of 20th given Sep 16 17:23:17 raster: going back on 6th Sep 16 17:23:50 get6ting anything delivered when you are nomadic is impossible Sep 16 17:23:51 wants to cancel 5 days before delivery (ie when product paid for is probably on a plane or whatever on its way) Sep 16 17:23:58 ok Sep 16 17:24:00 6th Sep 16 17:24:16 raster: what about customs? Sep 16 17:24:19 so 6th -> 20th (IF it arrives then) is not unreasonable Sep 16 17:24:27 it may be in customs right now Sep 16 17:24:30 if the whole batch will sit there for 3 weeks Sep 16 17:24:33 unless you ASK you dont KNOW Sep 16 17:24:35 raster: WE DO NOT KNOW Sep 16 17:24:40 i asked damn Sep 16 17:24:42 so much time Sep 16 17:24:44 i'd imagine there'll be plenty more buyers to replace the ones who cancel because they're waiting too long Sep 16 17:24:52 s Sep 16 17:24:57 wait until tomorrow Sep 16 17:25:01 as i said Sep 16 17:25:04 they are a small operation Sep 16 17:25:24 give them a bit of slack Sep 16 17:25:25 i'm not saying they are big, or they have to be perfect. Sep 16 17:25:31 and at least wait until monday for your answer Sep 16 17:25:58 i'm saying in my case, i guess i will end up with spending money and having the package in USA and me in europe (who knows where) Sep 16 17:25:59 am just suggesting to be patient Sep 16 17:26:09 hmm...looks like i am outta luck, now gst-plugins-base is borking while building...just a small rant, would it be helpful for others if we set up a wiki page and put the packages that arent compiling...i have compiling for 2 weeks now without luck..=(, mwaaa Sep 16 17:26:09 you don't know that yet Sep 16 17:26:24 raster: i can't trust. Sep 16 17:26:27 i meant put the names of the package Sep 16 17:26:28 that's the main point. Sep 16 17:26:29 s Sep 16 17:26:57 bedboi: indeed. you made a leap of faith of ordering a phone from a company you barely know Sep 16 17:27:02 from another corner of the world Sep 16 17:27:14 :) Sep 16 17:27:25 most peolpe wouldnt buy from anything but a big name well known and trusted brand Sep 16 17:27:53 but you made the leap of faith - mayaswell see if the trust was placed well when it comes to delivery Sep 16 17:28:00 or at least a response Sep 16 17:28:32 this way i will miss the opportunity to have the phone (ebay) Sep 16 17:30:20 but why? Sep 16 17:30:27 if you had the phone Sep 16 17:30:34 you would have what you ordered Sep 16 17:30:38 btw i think that even if i cancel the order, there will be someone that will be very happy to get mine :) Sep 16 17:30:46 why sell it on ebay unless you dont want it? Sep 16 17:30:53 sure Sep 16 17:30:55 there might be Sep 16 17:31:02 but most companies that deliver Sep 16 17:31:08 if you cancel while its in delivery Sep 16 17:31:20 no they are sending the batch Sep 16 17:31:20 they will charge you to send it back Sep 16 17:31:40 "Our next batch have enough amount to fulfill everyone" Sep 16 17:31:42 and refund you only the amount left Sep 16 17:31:48 they are sending the whole stuff Sep 16 17:31:48 after delivery there and back costs Sep 16 17:32:02 there still are delivery costs Sep 16 17:32:22 There is a seperate 'your neo has shipped' email Sep 16 17:32:26 with tracking numbers Sep 16 17:32:31 i found shipping very supportive when my phone ended up in germany, while i'm in the USA. Sep 16 17:32:46 juri_: you emailed them for help? Sep 16 17:33:02 that takes effort Sep 16 17:33:03 yep. they worked with me. Sep 16 17:33:06 the funny stuff is that i have to use the phone not for fun but for research Sep 16 17:33:25 Regarts Sep 16 17:33:25 What are you researching again? Sep 16 17:33:28 * SpeedEvil forgot. Sep 16 17:33:46 the effects of shipment delay on the agitation of the human mind Sep 16 17:33:48 probably Sep 16 17:33:48 SpeedEvil: that Future internet design stuff Sep 16 17:33:51 ...>.> Sep 16 17:34:02 SpeedEvil: Bob Kahn being the big boss of the project Sep 16 17:34:03 bedboi: Oh - yes. Sep 16 17:34:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kahn Sep 16 17:34:43 this small insignificant guy Sep 16 17:35:20 lol, if you have invented TCP what else you do deserve in your life? Sep 16 17:35:39 dunno Sep 16 17:35:46 invent more stuff? Sep 16 17:35:47 bedboi: eternal damnation probably :-) Sep 16 17:35:50 i can think of a few things ... unspeakable things... Sep 16 17:35:54 ;| Sep 16 17:35:56 XorA|gone: i guess. Sep 16 17:36:05 inventing stuff is easy Sep 16 17:36:22 anrp: lol. i guess that the biggest turn on for Bob is a huge terabit router Sep 16 17:36:28 Alguien Puede ayudarme con asterisk -java Sep 16 17:36:42 raster: inventing the fucking internet is not easy Sep 16 17:36:55 he was just damned lucky he helped develop a protocol that became a basic foundation for every network out there (pretty much) Sep 16 17:36:57 it's very difficult. Sep 16 17:37:14 bedboi: he didnt invent the internet Sep 16 17:37:16 no one did Sep 16 17:37:20 id grew Sep 16 17:37:22 it grew Sep 16 17:37:26 TCP/IP just hit the right window. Sep 16 17:37:29 he laid a foundation Sep 16 17:37:41 SpeedEvil: *groan* Sep 16 17:37:42 raster: without foundation and architecture you have NOTHING Sep 16 17:37:43 A few years delay, and we might have had AOLnet Sep 16 17:37:44 that ALLOWED enough machines to robustly send data to and fro Sep 16 17:37:59 the rest was not an invention Sep 16 17:38:02 nerd fight! Sep 16 17:38:05 * anrp popcorn Sep 16 17:38:09 it was everyone jumping on the bandwagon Sep 16 17:38:17 and yes Sep 16 17:38:20 Like http Sep 16 17:38:23 i know without a design you have nothing Sep 16 17:38:27 SpeedEvil: that's pure shit Sep 16 17:38:38 the architecture is the main point Sep 16 17:38:39 http could have been killed by a gopher extension to put images on it. Sep 16 17:38:40 but it's the shit everyone uses Sep 16 17:38:44 so, it won Sep 16 17:38:50 yup Sep 16 17:38:55 IP won Sep 16 17:38:56 raster: can you imagine something that scales the whole world Sep 16 17:39:01 its not that complicated Sep 16 17:39:02 that is a HUGE invention Sep 16 17:39:18 bedboi: yes i can. Sep 16 17:39:23 please, tell Sep 16 17:39:24 * anrp spots a fundamentally different set of viewpoints Sep 16 17:39:29 * bedboi is all ears Sep 16 17:39:48 not fair Sep 16 17:39:55 as i operate with 20/20 hindsight Sep 16 17:40:04 and knowledge of IP already Sep 16 17:40:14 the crux of the matter appears Sep 16 17:40:16 IP is old school stuff Sep 16 17:40:22 i'm saying something new Sep 16 17:40:25 without IPs Sep 16 17:40:37 an IP is nothing other than a UUID Sep 16 17:40:44 it happens to be a fixed 32bit value Sep 16 17:40:58 exactly something that binds you to the topology Sep 16 17:41:01 with subnetting to make the routing problem manageable Sep 16 17:41:05 too bad its not a UUID. Sep 16 17:41:10 as its numeric it allows sub-space partitioning into subsets (subnets) Sep 16 17:41:11 can you give me hints about flat routing Sep 16 17:41:13 Yeah, DECNet or IPX would have been better. *ducks* Sep 16 17:41:13 ipv6 4ever! Sep 16 17:41:13 for easeir routing Sep 16 17:41:17 how many machines have an IP of 192.168.1.1? :) Sep 16 17:41:21 anrp: ipv6 is dead. Sep 16 17:41:25 i know Sep 16 17:41:32 but it would be closer to an actual uuid Sep 16 17:41:33 juri_: i'm talking about public internet Sep 16 17:41:41 juri_: well post-nat it lost the first u. Sep 16 17:41:42 well, it's not dead yet Sep 16 17:41:47 just bleeding profusely... Sep 16 17:41:59 i was listening to this keynote speech by henning Shulzrinne (maybe mis-spelled) Sep 16 17:42:00 why would ipv6 be dead? something else trailing it? Sep 16 17:42:05 bedboi: this box is on the internet... its just not visible. Sep 16 17:42:10 he was saying why ipv6 is shitty. Sep 16 17:42:15 dead as in not alive yet Sep 16 17:42:18 juri_: and lets not split hairs on 127.0.0.1 etc. :) Sep 16 17:42:30 the internet is bigger than the UUIDs, thats all i'm saying. Sep 16 17:42:36 nat was nowhere in any original "Design" of the itnernet Sep 16 17:42:42 it was a really cool hack figured out much later Sep 16 17:42:49 cool? Sep 16 17:42:49 anrp: dead as it is not alive yet, and that all the community is trying to replace for something that adds more functionalities Sep 16 17:42:51 nah. :) Sep 16 17:43:15 in the end u will develop something "ip-like" if you re-do it Sep 16 17:43:25 it wouldn't really be IP if it had more functionality Sep 16 17:43:28 basically because it covered most of the important bits Sep 16 17:43:37 it would be a big blob(tm) Sep 16 17:43:52 things i'd improve is requiring dns for local networks Sep 16 17:44:02 raster: obviously Sep 16 17:44:05 that's the simple point Sep 16 17:44:09 already solved Sep 16 17:44:19 the problem is routing through flat lables Sep 16 17:44:26 32bits - too little if you really did plan to invent the internety Sep 16 17:44:46 (ROFL: routing on flat lables) Sep 16 17:45:04 raster: yep. it's just stupid. ipv6 is just enhancement Sep 16 17:45:13 in the end inventing ip is not amazing Sep 16 17:45:14 You need to route packets according to Feng-Shui. Sep 16 17:45:14 you are not reinventing anythong Sep 16 17:45:20 it just won Sep 16 17:45:25 raster: but it worked. Sep 16 17:45:26 inventing "ascii" is not amazing Sep 16 17:45:27 * anrp gets a whole /8 just for himself Sep 16 17:45:28 amazingly well Sep 16 17:45:29 it just won Sep 16 17:45:32 ... 127./8, that is Sep 16 17:45:42 i like the fact we do have ip Sep 16 17:45:45 raster: in 2007 nobody had come up with a better invetion Sep 16 17:45:49 1 basic networking protocol everyone shares Sep 16 17:45:51 thats good enough Sep 16 17:45:56 Umm. No. Sep 16 17:46:03 point is that it is possible to be bnetter Sep 16 17:46:04 noone uses Sep 16 17:46:05 but it wont work Sep 16 17:46:06 isnt vista the first windows with decent ipv6 support? Sep 16 17:46:06 key difference Sep 16 17:46:07 anrp: I never got that, why waste an entire A on loopback. Sep 16 17:46:08 Better inventions get killed all the time by the market. Sep 16 17:46:12 u wont hit cricical mass Sep 16 17:46:19 For example, a better auction site may pop up tomorrow. Sep 16 17:46:22 so conceivably it might become less uncommon now =) Sep 16 17:46:28 the market install base for IP is too big Sep 16 17:46:29 Ebay will kill it. Sep 16 17:46:32 and its "good enough" Sep 16 17:46:51 SpeedEvil: well BBN is spending a lot of money on the next internet Sep 16 17:46:53 no one has the money nor will invest the money (and time) Sep 16 17:47:01 as its frankly not worth it Sep 16 17:47:02 Ebay is utterly dominant - it takes millions of auctions to get to the point whereby I have 5 refrigerators withing 10 miles. Sep 16 17:47:04 look at ipv6 Sep 16 17:47:10 wer'e still waiting for it to be adopted Sep 16 17:47:14 its there Sep 16 17:47:16 in small amounts Sep 16 17:47:19 raster: because it's useless Sep 16 17:47:24 but its BETTER Sep 16 17:47:25 it doesn't add anything new Sep 16 17:47:32 it's just slightly better Sep 16 17:47:37 why do we need new one such a low level? Sep 16 17:47:37 a massiv increase in address space Sep 16 17:47:39 nothing worth so big efforts Sep 16 17:47:46 raster: you have nats Sep 16 17:47:47 what does ip _prevent_ from working? Sep 16 17:48:01 that's what is preventing the spreading of ipv6 Sep 16 17:48:07 sandos: Anything that can't be mapped easily across a NAT. Sep 16 17:48:09 prevents us from having more than 2^32 directly addressible host targets Sep 16 17:48:11 (as prof. Shulzrinne said) Sep 16 17:48:17 from where i stand. Sep 16 17:48:36 when every telephone has an IP instead of a phone # (ok- we can dream) Sep 16 17:48:37 Lynet: and that ipv6 solves. Sep 16 17:48:38 NAT is a dirty hack, but it works (skype, for instance) Sep 16 17:48:43 tell me where you will fit all the ips? Sep 16 17:48:45 I mean what the problem is with ipv6 that its lacking Sep 16 17:48:46 * SpeedEvil stabs skype. Sep 16 17:48:58 sandos: By doing away with the reason for NAT, which is limited address space. Sep 16 17:48:59 considering the rate at which mobiloe phones get adopted Sep 16 17:49:01 SpeedEvil: i hate skype Sep 16 17:49:03 that's a new one Sep 16 17:49:05 ipv6, lacking? Sep 16 17:49:09 we will have billions of them in a decade or so Sep 16 17:49:23 SpeedEvil: it was just to mention the most famous. btw ICE protocol works Sep 16 17:49:43 raster: just see what shit is mobile ip Sep 16 17:49:46 ip has problems Sep 16 17:49:48 and limitations Sep 16 17:50:28 the fact is that if you want to go beyond IP you have to redesign the whole stuff Sep 16 17:50:32 most of the internet built itself Sep 16 17:50:35 it weasnt invented Sep 16 17:50:43 the protocols were invented Sep 16 17:50:52 the main actors were invented Sep 16 17:50:53 IP has gotten good enouhg Sep 16 17:51:02 (routers, hubs (bleah), switches) Sep 16 17:51:05 as u can build almost anything u need in addition to it ON TOP of it. Sep 16 17:51:19 The investment by the US in high speed networking - sponsored by Al Gore amongst others - may have actually made IP win. Sep 16 17:51:22 the core problems it has are still yet to be solved Sep 16 17:51:27 raster: overlaying is the first step. but it's not the solution. Sep 16 17:51:30 beyond theory or small rollouts Sep 16 17:51:43 eg ipv6 trying to solve the address-space issue (for one thing it tries to fix) Sep 16 17:53:07 so saying bob invented the internet - is a big stretch Sep 16 17:53:16 he was one of the designers of TCP/IP Sep 16 17:53:21 and arapnet Sep 16 17:53:30 (one and the same in my mind at the time) Sep 16 17:53:35 Most people think of http as the internet Sep 16 17:53:37 tyhat happened to be good enough to grow Sep 16 17:53:46 SpeedEvil: nooo! its internet explorer Sep 16 17:53:48 thats the internet Sep 16 17:53:53 they dont even knwo what http is Sep 16 17:53:53 which could have been over any protocol prettymuch Sep 16 17:53:58 raster: i'm not saying bob is god. It's a very important contributor of the internet that we are using Sep 16 17:54:01 the internet is that "e" icon/ Sep 16 17:54:22 Most people think of http as the internet Sep 16 17:54:23 ahhaa Sep 16 17:54:36 Well - you know what I mean. Sep 16 17:54:38 * XorA|gone downloaded the internet the other day Sep 16 17:54:41 LOL Sep 16 17:54:49 bedboi: well you did say he invented the internet. Sep 16 17:54:50 raster: inventing the fucking internet is not easy Sep 16 17:54:51 :) Sep 16 17:55:05 raster: yep, it contributed. Sep 16 17:55:07 a lot Sep 16 17:55:09 sure Sep 16 17:55:15 he was one of the main Sep 16 17:55:20 TCP is fundamental Sep 16 17:55:26 * XorA|gone is glad Bob invented tcp/ip when I studied it gave me brainache, Im glad I didnt have to invent it Sep 16 17:55:29 i am greatful to men like him who put effort in and founded some of the core protocols the internet happens to use Sep 16 17:55:35 well proto9cols at the IP layer Sep 16 17:55:38 do anyone of you know Von Jacobson Sep 16 17:55:43 (i'm sure just a few) Sep 16 17:55:43 TCP and UDP for example Sep 16 17:55:48 yup Sep 16 17:55:53 You talking about Bob Dole? Sep 16 17:55:53 BlahCat: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 16 17:55:54 i'm familiar with it Sep 16 17:55:54 :P Sep 16 17:55:59 i'm not a networking nerd though Sep 16 17:56:03 networks bore me Sep 16 17:56:06 eheh Sep 16 17:56:06 generally Sep 16 17:56:14 too slow Sep 16 17:56:27 raster: hmmm it's not true. Sep 16 17:56:34 they are going to be an hassle. Sep 16 17:56:36 definitely true Sep 16 17:56:42 10 Gbps it's not simple to handle Sep 16 17:56:44 slooooow Sep 16 17:56:47 what about 1 Terabit Sep 16 17:56:55 which is going to happen very soon Sep 16 17:56:56 VERY Sep 16 17:57:02 i mean that we have something in labs Sep 16 17:57:27 * SpeedEvil contemplates Tbttd. Sep 16 17:57:42 raster: can you handle 1 Tbps? Sep 16 17:57:55 my laptop is not able to do that Sep 16 17:58:04 neither 10 Gbps Sep 16 17:58:09 still slow Sep 16 17:58:15 i prefer my graphics world Sep 16 17:58:33 40gbit is the tinny funnel we have to squeeze gfx from cpu/ram to video mem Sep 16 17:58:41 raster: the speed of light is the same in the whole universe Sep 16 17:58:45 (pci-e x16) Sep 16 17:58:59 i prefer to think in terms of 2ghz+ddr3 vidoe ram bandwidth Sep 16 18:00:11 what's the max video stuff throughput you heard about ? Sep 16 18:00:53 i think buses will be very soon the bottlenecks Sep 16 18:01:01 they are Sep 16 18:01:18 the network won't be the bottleneck anymore Sep 16 18:01:43 pci-e x16 is about 40gbit Sep 16 18:01:53 thats the tiny bottlneck to squeeze gfx thru Sep 16 18:02:01 still beats most peoples networks Sep 16 18:02:04 by a fat margin Sep 16 18:02:18 and unlike 10gbit cards + switches Sep 16 18:02:21 raster: i'm telling. Sep 16 18:02:27 raster: wait at most 1 year Sep 16 18:02:30 is availabel on alomost anythng u guy off the shelf ona cheap motherboard Sep 16 18:02:40 mem bandwidth on-card makes that look puny Sep 16 18:03:01 i are looking at 400gbit+ on modern cards Sep 16 18:03:59 and in 1 year Sep 16 18:04:10 \the gfx cards will have upped their bandiwdht again Sep 16 18:04:16 optical switches are going to overflow whatever you have in your PC :) Sep 16 18:04:25 unlikely Sep 16 18:04:52 raster: terabits are not enough? Sep 16 18:05:08 we are talking just udner a terabit of bandwidth already in higher end gfx cards Sep 16 18:05:16 already there Sep 16 18:05:18 on the shelf Sep 16 18:05:25 for about $400-$500 Sep 16 18:05:47 raster: optical cards won't be expansive Sep 16 18:06:14 all the cabkling , switches and finra to deliver the data will Sep 16 18:06:39 raster: your isp will pay for that :) Sep 16 18:06:48 and by the time that equipment is cheap and commodity Sep 16 18:06:52 that's what isps are for :) Sep 16 18:06:58 things will have moved ahaed Sep 16 18:07:00 no Sep 16 18:07:03 they will make you pay for it Sep 16 18:07:06 raster: what about the speed of light? Sep 16 18:07:07 i already have 100mbit Sep 16 18:07:09 fibre Sep 16 18:07:11 to my door Sep 16 18:07:13 can you go faster than c ? Sep 16 18:07:14 fat lot of good it is Sep 16 18:07:24 i am lucky to see 20-30mbit Sep 16 18:07:28 most of the time i see < 1mbit Sep 16 18:07:29 err Sep 16 18:07:31 < 10mbit Sep 16 18:07:39 raster: it depends also on congestion Sep 16 18:07:45 it depends on many things Sep 16 18:07:51 you are doing unfair comparison Sep 16 18:08:08 it mostly depends on latency and the fact that most sources of data are slower than my home netowkr i pay $40/month for Sep 16 18:08:16 you are talking about a very simple architecture compared to a wild one (the internet) Sep 16 18:08:25 wait Sep 16 18:08:37 comparign what exactly? Sep 16 18:08:46 raster: video cards Sep 16 18:08:50 oh Sep 16 18:08:51 with networks Sep 16 18:08:54 u think thats tame? Sep 16 18:08:55 hahahahah Sep 16 18:09:05 you are comparing speed Sep 16 18:09:14 yes Sep 16 18:09:19 gfx interests me Sep 16 18:09:26 as i count speed in clock cycles Sep 16 18:09:40 not in round-trip times in miliseconds Sep 16 18:09:48 who cares about rtt now Sep 16 18:09:54 i do Sep 16 18:10:02 its the time to ask for something and get a result Sep 16 18:10:20 i can ask a video card to take mb's of data Sep 16 18:10:33 process it with complex transforms Sep 16 18:10:34 you are asking it LOCALLY Sep 16 18:10:40 10 cm away Sep 16 18:10:41 :) Sep 16 18:10:43 that cpu's dont have a snowballs chance in hell of being able to do Sep 16 18:10:53 it's damn unfair comparison Sep 16 18:10:57 and come back within micorseconds Sep 16 18:11:00 it is unfair Sep 16 18:11:04 thats what i was saying Sep 16 18:11:06 ok, we agree Sep 16 18:11:08 netowkors bore me Sep 16 18:11:09 too slow Sep 16 18:11:12 ahaha Sep 16 18:11:14 i like thigns fast Sep 16 18:11:15 it is not. Sep 16 18:11:16 ok Sep 16 18:11:24 i'm an "instant gratification kind of guy Sep 16 18:11:27 i'm all about instant Sep 16 18:11:35 instant ramen Sep 16 18:11:36 raster: i have instant beer Sep 16 18:11:38 instant beer Sep 16 18:11:41 i got that Sep 16 18:11:42 instant meat Sep 16 18:11:50 yesterday i bought from smiths Sep 16 18:11:54 networks are not instant enough for me Sep 16 18:11:57 even at the bleedign edge Sep 16 18:11:59 they asked for my passport Sep 16 18:12:07 lol, passport for fucking beer Sep 16 18:12:13 i like gfx as its all about instant gratification Sep 16 18:12:52 raster: if you sit at the end points of an optical link, you will have damn instant gratification Sep 16 18:12:59 the amount of data to be shuffled about by your average gfx card to draw just 1 frame of gfx in a game these days is astronomical Sep 16 18:13:01 well you and another guy Sep 16 18:13:06 and every cycle counts Sep 16 18:14:16 also results are pretty Sep 16 18:14:22 they appear in front of me Sep 16 18:14:30 in shiny sparkly colours Sep 16 18:14:34 raster: yep. that's true Sep 16 18:14:36 i'm all about shiny and sparkyl Sep 16 18:14:38 i just get shitty graphs Sep 16 18:14:40 and instant Sep 16 18:14:44 yeah Sep 16 18:14:48 some people love networks Sep 16 18:14:52 i have friends who do Sep 16 18:14:53 my gf she get much more than you Sep 16 18:14:59 they get all gooey about them Sep 16 18:15:00 she is in fluido dynamics Sep 16 18:15:05 fluid Sep 16 18:15:18 you should check her graphs Sep 16 18:15:21 me - i don't Sep 16 18:15:25 i get gooey about gui's Sep 16 18:15:26 :) Sep 16 18:15:26 they are wonderful Sep 16 18:15:38 i have graphs too Sep 16 18:15:39 :) Sep 16 18:15:58 they tend to just be performance trends over time Sep 16 18:15:59 ie. Sep 16 18:16:06 have i sped up my rendering lately? yes/no Sep 16 18:17:04 boring graphs Sep 16 18:17:05 :P Sep 16 18:17:15 just a curve Sep 16 18:17:51 hmm...guys, i have a weird problem, sometimes the build process for some packages proceeds to do_install directly instead of do_compile, although if i do a make clean-package- and rebuild it, it goes away, have i chanced upon a bitbake bug or something? Sep 16 18:18:49 not when its more of a surface Sep 16 18:18:49 oh. the errors i get are "No rule to make target:install", Sep 16 18:19:01 and different operatiosn scale up differently depending on whatr you do Sep 16 18:19:08 and how you cut out rendering paths Sep 16 18:19:10 etc. Sep 16 18:19:24 anyway Sep 16 18:19:26 time to sleep Sep 16 18:19:28 waay late Sep 16 18:19:31 snooz! Sep 16 20:39:58 re Sep 16 20:43:20 does anyone else get the gui all squished int he upper left-hand corner of the openmoko on the latest images? Sep 16 20:43:25 any workarounds found? Sep 16 20:44:07 what? Sep 16 20:44:14 I get the UI starts up screen, and then the normal home, etc, is all squished up in the upper left hand corner in a small like 200px by 100 px window Sep 16 20:44:15 squished? Sep 16 20:44:22 yah, weird, right Sep 16 20:44:41 can you upload a screenshot? Sep 16 20:44:59 I do not have that issue with the images from today Sep 16 20:45:17 see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Phase_1_Software_Testing#Snapshot_20070916_rootfs_with_20070916_kernel_fic-gta01_2.6.22.5-moko11.2Bsvnr2937-r0 Sep 16 20:45:42 (right, looking at) Sep 16 20:45:42 ah, just saw your screenshot Sep 16 20:45:47 and updated to that image Sep 16 20:45:49 thats looks weird Sep 16 20:46:44 you see on scap.linuxtogo.org Sep 16 20:46:52 are you sure you have the right kernel and the right rootfs? Sep 16 20:47:04 yes, I see it on scap, weird Sep 16 20:47:09 yah Sep 16 20:47:27 I images the latest kernel and rootfs Sep 16 20:47:49 ipkg update && ipkg upgrade didn't pull down any upgrades (prolly cuz new image) Sep 16 20:48:11 heya, the dialer works though! Sep 16 20:49:02 hmmm...I wonder what a workaround would be Sep 16 20:53:49 * compbrain stabs gsmd Sep 16 20:54:08 why must you crash without warning Sep 16 20:55:17 compbrain: hey, but thats what gsmd _does_ Sep 16 20:55:30 so I take it no one has any ideas about my problem with latest image ;) Sep 16 20:55:44 its like the bugs are near chaotic ;) Sep 16 20:55:59 rejon: sorry, no. looks like somehow the X thinks you have a very small screen Sep 16 20:56:47 is the display resolution part of boot parameters? Sep 16 20:57:17 you mean in uboot, like in bootargs_base ? Sep 16 20:57:24 how would that be done? Sep 16 20:58:06 hmm, no its not Sep 16 20:59:46 hhf423: where/how would I set that? Sep 16 21:00:19 hhf423: granted, I'm using total stock image here with little to no changes... Sep 16 21:00:30 rejon: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader but there is not much, but it looks like uboot knows the resolution already Sep 16 21:00:53 rejon: are you using uboot from august 19 or older? Sep 16 21:01:22 oh yah, shoudl update my uboot Sep 16 21:01:24 y Sep 16 21:01:29 duh Sep 16 21:01:31 ;) Sep 16 21:01:40 rejon: use this uboot, its known good: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/images/ Sep 16 21:01:55 or do you have a debug board? Sep 16 21:01:58 y Sep 16 21:02:06 crap, its at the office Sep 16 21:02:45 without a debug board, I would use that one (as I said http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/images/). with a debug board I would try the latest :-) Sep 16 21:03:06 I am running the version from august 19, as I do not have a debug board Sep 16 21:03:14 ok, sounds good... Sep 16 21:04:20 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/724a5ed7ecd6e09bef7701aac9fe9351.png Sep 16 21:04:22 O_o Sep 16 21:08:04 El_Salvador yeah, thats nice, isn't it? and that one: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/43091acec6b18755afc111cb45857f5c.png Sep 16 21:08:49 ok, off to bed Sep 16 21:27:57 hhf423: bummer, that didn't work Sep 16 21:28:10 I flashed uboot and still the same Sep 16 21:28:28 Sooooo tempted to buy a phone...eeek Sep 16 21:28:53 I went down the list of what doesnt work at the moment, it seems pretty similar to my nokia N80 :) Sep 16 21:39:35 ok, hhf423: filed a bug Sep 16 21:39:37 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=873 Sep 16 21:39:41 time to switch tasks Sep 16 21:41:34 anyone know what the shipping costs are ? Sep 16 21:41:34 darkskiez: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (and also SH1, SH1_FAQ, Neo1973, Developer_preview and Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv4 pages) (Hopefully these links answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Sep 16 21:42:46 start making order, it should tell you without need to finish it Sep 16 21:43:12 Ooh ta Sep 16 21:44:37 Argh, United Kingdom isnt on the list of countries. Sep 16 21:44:50 Oh.. Great Britain this time, that winds me up. Sep 16 21:47:45 hmm, will be around 655 dollars for the advance kit all in then :( Sep 16 21:52:08 where can I get gllin ? Sep 16 21:55:29 polz: you can't unfortunately Sep 16 21:56:24 bah. Sep 16 22:02:10 Random bluetooth question. Do 'all' cheap USB bluetooth adaptors do the same thing? Sep 16 22:02:32 Can I basically use them with bluez, to emulate devices, or use devices? Sep 16 22:03:09 afaik, basically, yes Sep 16 22:03:11 * SpeedEvil has not investigated bluetooth befor. Sep 16 22:03:19 Thanks. Sep 16 22:03:47 Yeah, they're essentially just nic Sep 16 22:04:11 Just wondering if there is a shortcut to making a bluetooth camera. ucLinux/bluez Sep 16 22:25:25 SpeedEvil: most of the BT dongles are about the same... there isn't even a clean way to know if a $3 works better (more range/less noise) than a $20 often Sep 16 22:25:33 anyhow, BT for a camera would suck Sep 16 22:25:35 very slow Sep 16 22:26:59 I'm more talking about a snap cam, rather than a webcam, or a high quality cam. Sep 16 22:27:21 yeah, but even so BT performance is miserable Sep 16 22:27:47 Plenty for a VGA or 1024*768 JPG every few seconds. Sep 16 22:28:12 SpeedEvil: you might find you end up with 20-50kB/s at most Sep 16 22:28:13 try it Sep 16 22:28:30 That's quite fine. Sep 16 22:28:46 SpeedEvil: that's exactly what i am missing on a neo: a snap cam, say 630x480 pixels.... Sep 16 22:29:11 s/3/4/ Sep 16 22:29:11 emdete meant: SpeedEvil: that's exactly what i am missing on a neo: a snap cam, say 640x480 pixels.... Sep 16 22:29:46 The fun question is of course 'how cheap can it be made in small volume'. Sep 16 22:29:47 why does everyone want a cam on their damned phone? Sep 16 22:29:53 they suck something terrible at the best of times Sep 16 22:29:58 Many apps. Sep 16 22:30:10 Taking quality pictures is not one of them. Sep 16 22:30:14 At least for me. Sep 16 22:30:31 my girlfriend says: scummvm on the neo is great, she wants a neo... Sep 16 22:30:52 Taking snapshots of streetsigns for http://www.openstreetmap.org/ Sep 16 22:31:02 cw666: sometimes you want to take a picture.. Sep 16 22:31:09 taking pictures of stuff in shops, including the price-tag, for comparison shopping Sep 16 22:31:15 reading barcodes Sep 16 22:31:19 emdete: yeah, ive been there enough times to know i dont really care much for phone-camera pics Sep 16 22:31:23 they just suck so badly Sep 16 22:31:29 i must admist an DSL is a pain to take about Sep 16 22:31:31 thumbnails for contact lists Sep 16 22:31:41 They do have alot of uses i find. Sep 16 22:31:51 would be a brilliant feature for the neo. Sep 16 22:31:58 * cw666 accidentally whacked his little girl in the head with a 7lb dSLR a while back Sep 16 22:32:08 Ow. Sep 16 22:32:29 A snap cam is not a replacement for a DSLR. Sep 16 22:32:34 It's a replacement for no DSLR Sep 16 22:32:58 Or rather, no camera at all. Sep 16 22:33:00 it wsn't hard, i pulled it back and it spun around to smash the rear of it into the metal playfield (Nikon D200, i was UNHAPPY when i did that) Sep 16 22:33:26 And that's the other issue. Sep 16 22:33:34 You can make snap-cams that bounce. Sep 16 22:33:41 Doing that with a DSLR is trickier. Sep 16 22:34:59 SpeedEvil: bounce? Sep 16 22:36:07 Hit the floor, and do not shatter or become inoperable. Sep 16 22:36:27 SpeedEvil: ah, alright :) Sep 16 22:36:31 actually, a decent dSLR will go thunk in many cases and not break Sep 16 22:36:39 Yes. Sep 16 22:36:57 Now drop it onto concrete and pretend not to be worried while picking it up :) Sep 16 22:37:00 part of the reason some are so heavy is becaue they are built very well, but you pay a lot for this and have to carry a lot Sep 16 22:37:13 anyway a cam on a gadget would be nice. wonder why all the people around the neo are arguing about that... Sep 16 22:37:16 SpeedEvil: oh, well, i would assume $300+ damage or so then Sep 16 22:37:31 SpeedEvil: http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d200/drop-test.htm Sep 16 22:39:09 ..while most of the gadgets today just have one. Sep 16 22:39:32 can't bring it into secure facilities Sep 16 22:39:41 since there's only one product (so far) it would exclude some users completely Sep 16 22:39:47 hello my moko monkeys Sep 16 22:39:49 I totally agree. But, a 50g device with a thick plastic case is much, much easier to make bounce. Sep 16 22:39:58 anrp: i don't care, sorry Sep 16 22:40:38 anrp: it's not that big amount of people working in that areas... Sep 16 22:40:49 true Sep 16 22:40:52 doesnt affect me either Sep 16 22:41:11 just use gaffer-tape.. ;) Sep 16 22:41:51 In some places, cameras are sackable offences. Sep 16 22:42:11 In a very few, prosecutable. Sep 16 22:42:13 and not as in "here's a sack to put your camera in" Sep 16 22:42:16 >.> Sep 16 22:42:40 And in others, they'll get you killed. Sep 16 22:42:53 (though those are rarely very safe without a camera) Sep 16 22:42:54 i heard that already but don't think it's a reason for not including one. the real reason could be 'it's too expansive'... Sep 16 22:43:06 It's not expensive in terms of price. Sep 16 22:43:21 It's expensive in terms of having to change the case, the PCB, the whole design basically. Sep 16 22:43:42 i'd settle for a less lame case design right now myself Sep 16 22:43:46 so why isn't one icluded? for those envs where you are not allowed to bring one? don't whink so Sep 16 22:43:55 rounded corners are pointless and a waste of 'space' Sep 16 22:44:00 same for the hole Sep 16 22:44:08 and the plastic used in very thick Sep 16 22:44:21 Thick plastic is good. Sep 16 22:44:25 hey at least you don't have to pick orange Sep 16 22:44:35 cw666: for me the high border around the display is the biggest disantvantage Sep 16 22:44:45 thin plastic bends too much on impact to have a decent shielding effect. Sep 16 22:44:54 emdete: well, the corners of ther screen a near useless w/o a stylus Sep 16 22:46:02 if u show the neo to people with no knowledge of open source - what do they say? all the people i know don't like it... Sep 16 22:46:26 To some extent, it's irrelevant. Sep 16 22:46:39 it's completely relevant Sep 16 22:46:39 The important bit is not the hardware, but the software. Sep 16 22:46:52 SpeedEvil: yes and no, see, the sw is near non-existent Sep 16 22:47:04 openmoko: 03mickey * r2977 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/sounds/touchscreen_click.wav: OM 2007.2 sounds: repair touchscreen_click Sep 16 22:47:13 It's not meant to show to consumers for months yet Sep 16 22:47:15 a whole lot of broken appslications with slow bloated gtk/gnome pixmaps isn't 'software' Sep 16 22:47:38 ooh a dig Sep 16 22:48:02 being hackable is most wonderful, being open is a nice way to make it hackable Sep 16 22:48:11 but that's not going to help for mass-market Sep 16 22:48:28 fic goes mass market.. or wants ot Sep 16 22:48:33 s/ot/to/ Sep 16 22:48:33 emdete meant: fic goes mass market.. or wants to Sep 16 22:49:19 and on mass market the neo will be compared with ....say, the iphone. Sep 16 22:49:22 right now i dont see it working, in fact, im worried this will tank badly and disuade later open/hackable phone attempts Sep 16 22:49:33 emdete: no, it won't be compared with the iphone Sep 16 22:49:43 Of course it will be. Sep 16 22:49:49 because the iphone is cheaper for more, theyre are MILLIONS of them (or will be sooner) Sep 16 22:49:51 By everyone else. Sep 16 22:49:56 apple has great volume already Sep 16 22:49:57 And fail. Sep 16 22:49:59 cw666: no? my friends do all the time.. and there is even a page in the wiki doing so Sep 16 22:50:35 emdete: how can you compare the neo with the iphone right now? Sep 16 22:50:47 that's like comparing some srap metal to the space shuttle Sep 16 22:51:08 this particular pile of scrap metal happens to look a bit like the buran though Sep 16 22:51:13 cw666: no. they are much nearer... arm proc, display, gsm. Sep 16 22:51:46 emdete: CPU is irrelevant, neo has a nicer display (a lot). gsm irrelevant. Sep 16 22:52:05 CPU & GSM are not ends unto themselves for most people, just letters and unimportant details Sep 16 22:52:12 * mjr repeats http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/010095.html Sep 16 22:52:18 cw666: for you. and me. but not for the mass market. for those both are phones. nothing more Sep 16 22:52:22 does you mom care what CPU her phone has when she makes a call? Sep 16 22:52:33 emdete: for mass market they are very different Sep 16 22:53:07 cw666: yes, because mass market says iphone's display is nicer ;) Sep 16 22:53:19 emdete: oh, it's not IMO, the neo has a way nicer display Sep 16 22:53:46 speaking of making a call, i sure do look forward to teh day when i can make calls on my openmoko phone :) Sep 16 22:54:03 rabble: ive done a few on mine Sep 16 22:54:15 kicker is i need to prep things a little more than i like Sep 16 22:54:19 yeah, i know if i got something other than a tmobile sim i could make SOME calls Sep 16 22:54:27 turn of sidetone in the modem, poke gsmd 27 times to get it started and up right, etc. Sep 16 22:54:29 i wonder if the security folks will try and squeeze/demand a backdoor into the system (if there isnt one already in the gsmd) Sep 16 22:54:33 cw666: technically the neo may be nicer, the oppinion of mass market is different Sep 16 22:54:36 * mjr looks forward to the day when I can use the Neo as a basic phone semi-reliably without command line and recharging often Sep 16 22:54:45 darkskiez: backdoor? what for? Sep 16 22:54:45 that's hopefully not _too_ far away Sep 16 22:55:26 int fact i think neo's software openmoko makes the same mistake most phone developers made and iphone's did not make Sep 16 22:55:28 eavesdropping? Sep 16 22:55:31 cw666: there is much speculation that the security services can connect to most phones and download their memories, and call them silently as remote bugs etc. Sep 16 22:55:39 emdete: i asked several non-technical people so far, and the feedback ive gotten is the industrial design on the neo 'sucks' Sep 16 22:56:05 darkskiez: no law at present requires telcos and phone makers to do that, so not all phones can or will do that (if any do) Sep 16 22:56:05 cw666: yes, same for me Sep 16 22:56:28 cw666: yes, but $$$ to the right people makes things happen legal or otherwise. Sep 16 22:56:42 there is the attitude (esp. around here at times) that you can't say shit bad about OE/OM and the Neo ... which is bullshit Sep 16 22:56:56 it's wonderful it's mostly open, it's nice FIC has made much effort here Sep 16 22:57:07 but that doesn't mean some parts of the hw and sw don't suck Sep 16 22:57:10 cw666: but did those people just grabbed the device or did they play around with the software? Sep 16 22:57:17 of course they suck Sep 16 22:57:23 I haven't seen the attitude Sep 16 22:57:44 emdete: sure, several people i know in the bay area have the hw and the sw and are stunned about various aspects of it Sep 16 22:57:45 i'd say its more self limiting Sep 16 22:57:47 I do at least personally have the attitude that most of the iphone blathering is useless Sep 16 22:57:53 which is different Sep 16 22:57:56 its hard for reasonable people to say flat out to the creators that their stuff sucks Sep 16 22:58:05 ending up with superdead batteries is pretty heinous, the hw shouldn't allow that IMO Sep 16 22:58:06 cw666: i agree, for me the neo is heaven, but for mass market? Sep 16 22:58:26 emdete: for me the neo is probably very usable, i have several things i want, for the wife and others, it's not going to work Sep 16 22:58:59 emdete: also, for me realize i've more or less decided OE/OM is cancer and don't intend to go that route Sep 16 22:59:00 I can see a granny-mode skin for the UI Sep 16 22:59:15 that'd go down a storm Sep 16 22:59:28 so i'm even more in a corner of bad-attitude people who want a hackable phone (but not gnome in their pocket) Sep 16 22:59:34 cw666: which way do you go? Sep 16 23:00:05 emdete: depends, if i can find people to do enough usable phone UI stuff ill try to use that, otherwise ill take what i can from OE/OM without using the bulk of what they have Sep 16 23:00:08 cw666: :) yes, i dropped om, gnome, whatever also already. but stay with oe. Sep 16 23:00:24 emdete: why? what's so great about OE? Sep 16 23:00:36 really, it's a phone, not a desktop/workstation Sep 16 23:00:38 cw666: it just works fine for me Sep 16 23:00:49 emdete: builds are slow and complex and fragile often Sep 16 23:01:08 fragile? Sep 16 23:01:10 emdete: i PERSONALLY done care much for package management Sep 16 23:01:11 say it ain't so! Sep 16 23:01:23 people here talk about not getting builds for DAYS Sep 16 23:01:23 cw666: oe == open embedd? the build platform. i can tell it what parts to build even mine. it works fine and i use ipkg remove alot Sep 16 23:01:47 emdete: if it works for you great, it's not what i would use out of choice though Sep 16 23:02:11 portage shoehorned into an embedded build system is a bit odd Sep 16 23:02:12 cw666: what's would u use? Sep 16 23:02:17 not necessarily wrong, just... Sep 16 23:02:50 emdete: *i* personally am planning on using something a bit like what ive done for the last couple of years, that is a stable chroot of build-tools (cross dev env) and simple makefiles Sep 16 23:03:06 i used qtopia's build system before.. hell, i tell you oe is eden! Sep 16 23:03:11 emdete: it's fast, it's easy to deal with, and ive done it for mips hardware (for my job) for over two years now Sep 16 23:03:38 qt is massive Sep 16 23:03:42 use buildroot! Sep 16 23:03:59 cw666: i hope oe would help me if i switch to different hw with my project also Sep 16 23:04:11 anrp: ? Sep 16 23:04:11 emdete: fwiw, the mip stuff i do for work takes < 7 minutes to build kernel + base rootfs Sep 16 23:04:29 cw666: depends on the machine... Sep 16 23:04:43 buildroot is from the uclibc project Sep 16 23:04:52 i used it to build a bunch of toolchains/roots Sep 16 23:05:01 also used it to build the static mplayer used on the neo Sep 16 23:05:14 well the one i used a month ago or so D: Sep 16 23:05:21 emdete: depends on machine how? Sep 16 23:05:36 cw666: what host machine do u use... Sep 16 23:06:05 emdete: the buildroot we use is a 32-bit i386 one, it's used from small laptops to 16-way servers Sep 16 23:06:16 emdete: the <7 mins build time is a 3GHz P-D (slow PoS) Sep 16 23:06:31 cw666: ah... ;) Sep 16 23:06:33 you do use buildroot? Sep 16 23:06:50 we use "a buildroot" Sep 16 23:07:02 ie. something i made and called it a buldroot, nothing related to uclibc Sep 16 23:07:03 oh, but not the one i'm talking about Sep 16 23:07:06 heh Sep 16 23:07:14 * anrp wonders what it could possibly do? Sep 16 23:07:21 it just happend to be a rootfs with is used for building with some tools we have to manage it and what not Sep 16 23:07:47 s/happend/happens/ Sep 16 23:07:47 cw666 meant: it just happens to be a rootfs with is used for building with some tools we have to manage it and what not Sep 16 23:07:56 s/happens/happens / Sep 16 23:07:58 hah! Sep 16 23:08:00 apt is dumb :-) Sep 16 23:08:35 ? Sep 16 23:08:54 sorry, was seeing if apt would double-update on s/.../.../ foo Sep 16 23:09:28 apt is stateless ;) Sep 16 23:09:56 It can't be, since s/// works? :-P Sep 16 23:10:04 :) Sep 16 23:10:05 emdete: btw, one of the goals discussed was <7s from phone powerup to being registered on the network Sep 16 23:10:14 how quickly to getting a usable UI isn't clear right now Sep 16 23:10:28 cw666: including entering the PIN? Sep 16 23:10:38 aevin: w/o a PIN Sep 16 23:10:40 cw666: i don't care the first one, but the second. mine is much faster ;) Sep 16 23:11:01 cw666: much more interesting for now is the battery live.... Sep 16 23:11:14 i think my current phone requires more than 7s. if I try to browse my contact list too soon it complains: "SIM is not ready". Sep 16 23:11:30 emdete: yeah, im not sure about that, best i can get so far is a bit under 2 days, but a lot more can be done still Sep 16 23:11:46 aevin: that's normal, contacts are downloaded. but normaly you could do a phone call Sep 16 23:11:47 aevin: RAZR from powerup is ~6s to being able to make a call Sep 16 23:12:07 cw666: you neo works 2 days? wow... how that? Sep 16 23:12:15 7s is the goal here because that seems to be the fastest i can power up the modem and get it registered (well, a bit over 5s) Sep 16 23:12:26 emdete: prob more like 18 hours Sep 16 23:12:49 cw666: how? i get not even 10... Sep 16 23:13:20 cw666: that 5 sec is limited by the TI Calypso + network ? Sep 16 23:13:23 if i shut down my notebook at evening the phone is off on the morning... (connected by usb) Sep 16 23:13:29 emdete: making sure the amp is off, using as little CPU as possible Sep 16 23:13:35 aevin: for me yes Sep 16 23:13:40 emdete: that kind of sucks. Sep 16 23:13:47 I don't think 18 hours is possible. Sep 16 23:13:52 aevin: basically it's about 4-5s to get modem up and about 1s to register or something Sep 16 23:13:59 I measured the lowest idle at 90mA or so Sep 16 23:14:05 which is maybe 14h Sep 16 23:14:16 this was with clocking to 100Mhz, and undervolting Sep 16 23:14:35 - not possible with existing infrastructure I mean. Sep 16 23:14:36 SpeedEvil: that's more what i expirienced... Sep 16 23:14:52 SpeedEvil: prob is i can't switch freq while in linux Sep 16 23:14:59 SpeedEvil: im pretty sure you can do less Sep 16 23:15:01 hm. so I guess those 4-5 secs for the modem is not trimmable? it is already quite optimized? Sep 16 23:15:22 aevin: modem is silent at that time, nothing you can do Sep 16 23:15:41 aevin: the idea is to have uboot power up the modem and antenna and let is kill that time as linux boots Sep 16 23:15:47 then early userspaces takes over Sep 16 23:16:11 i see. Sep 16 23:16:17 cw666: and where do you get the pin? Sep 16 23:17:03 emdete: after you log into your shell. :-P jk. Sep 16 23:17:17 or: in your shell Sep 16 23:17:37 or: from your operator. Sep 16 23:17:58 emdete: The PIN isn't required until it's supposed to register with the network, AFAIK - so the 4-5s boot-time of the modem can happen without the PIN. Sep 16 23:18:03 hm, anyway goal should be not to power up that often Sep 16 23:18:32 emdete: i have no PIN on my sim Sep 16 23:18:48 if you have a pin, things are going to take longer Sep 16 23:22:24 It would be so nice if uboot-early userspace could interact with the user to take a pin Sep 16 23:22:30 but that gets complex. Sep 16 23:23:06 i would not care if boot takes a minute if i wouldn't have to do that all the time bacause the battery lasts a week or so Sep 16 23:24:07 SpeedEvil: then the limiting factor would be the person entering it Sep 16 23:24:09 Unfortunately, it won't last a week. Sep 16 23:24:21 4-5 days at most Sep 16 23:24:23 SpeedEvil: it also means a lot of complexity in uboot to do visual IO Sep 16 23:24:26 with the modem on Sep 16 23:24:37 cw666: and multitasking over boot Sep 16 23:24:43 which is a nightmare Sep 16 23:24:44 SpeedEvil: shure. but steady-on is the goal, not always shutting down & booting Sep 16 23:24:46 SpeedEvil: have you gotten a modem-only power reading? Sep 16 23:24:53 it's about 15mA Sep 16 23:24:57 SpeedEvil: multitaking over boot? it's not that bad, it could be done Sep 16 23:25:00 Or somewhere under 100 hours Sep 16 23:25:08 SpeedEvil: i just dont see that effort would be useful Sep 16 23:25:33 SpeedEvil: 30h are enough i think (worst case with bad connection) Sep 16 23:25:36 Especially as it _should_ eventually come back from suspend-RAM a lot faster than several seconds Sep 16 23:26:39 SpeedEvil: i'd still like a pic of your power measuring thing :-) Sep 16 23:28:15 i have an old hp supply with mA resolution on my desk Sep 16 23:28:29 however making a jig for the battery is preventing me from really testing Sep 16 23:28:39 since i can't just hand it usb power Sep 16 23:30:07 you really need to measure the power draw from a real battery though Sep 16 23:56:23 * rwhitby chuckles at the latest "I know what's best for the OpenMoko kitchen sink hardware and software" thread on the community list ... Sep 16 23:58:35 * aevin hasn't seen it yet. Sep 17 00:00:29 Some guy who wants DVB-T (yes, 'T', not 'H') and a Qt s/w GUI for it. Sep 17 00:01:11 nice. :-) Sep 17 00:01:22 you can combine stylus with antenna! Sep 17 00:05:01 rwhitby, yeeah Sep 17 00:05:19 I considered answering, but failed to bother Sep 17 00:05:36 for the best, I'm sure Sep 17 00:07:06 I was about to write a witty followup asking for the V12, and BlueRay support, and mandating a .Net GUI, but last time I tried to be witty on the community list someone said I was a bad for the community image ;-) Sep 17 00:07:27 v12? Sep 17 00:07:28 i6! Sep 17 00:07:35 or w16 Sep 17 00:07:59 * mjr roots for gyrostabilisation and inertial nav Sep 17 00:08:37 mems rate gyros are still expensive Sep 17 00:08:40 (let's keep it realistic, you know) Sep 17 00:09:27 rwhitby: a Qt s/w GUI might not be terrible Sep 17 00:09:35 anyhow, everyone wants different things Sep 17 00:09:49 i dont expect anyone to like/use what im doing, but im for the most part glad i can do it for myself Sep 17 00:10:10 multiple large toolkits on a phone is a bad idea even for the memory footprint Sep 17 00:10:18 mjr: Qt is smaller than GNOME typically Sep 17 00:10:33 and then there's the fun gui consistency thing Sep 17 00:10:33 in terms of memory used, at least for desktops if you compared KDE vs GNOME anyhow Sep 17 00:10:39 cw666: a request for Qt, from this guy who obviously has not read a single message from the mailing list archives, and who obviously is not going to contribute to development at all, is terrible. The fact that it was Qt is largely irrelevant :-) Sep 17 00:10:46 cw666, apples and oranges, by the way Sep 17 00:10:49 rwhitby but "Qt is the future"! :P Sep 17 00:10:56 Qoute the OP: Sep 17 00:10:57 Qt is the future, would it be possible to pre-install the open libraries? Sep 17 00:11:05 yeah, that was quotable Sep 17 00:11:08 Aw, too late. Sep 17 00:11:09 mjr: perhaps, im not even sure it matters... if someone wants not Qt, then they can do it Sep 17 00:11:16 s/Qou/Quo/ Sep 17 00:11:31 if nobody does a Qt GUI, then i guess the demand really isn't that strong Sep 17 00:12:11 some freak is sure to write a Qt OM program out of spite if nothing else Sep 17 00:12:31 yep, on OpenMoko everyone can have their own favourite GUI - it just depends on how much work they want to put into developing/porting/bribing ... Sep 17 00:13:12 for adapting existing apps, it may be even useful to have qt running, footprints, inconsistency and all, but not the optimum Sep 17 00:13:21 mjr: i really dont think Qt has to be any worse than what we have now Sep 17 00:14:19 Who cares about Qt or not, when gsmd doesn't work all the time, there's no gps, and the power management is "turn off the backlight" Sep 17 00:14:35 *nod* Sep 17 00:14:52 cesarb: there is likely to be usable PM and gsm-something long before the rest of this stuff Sep 17 00:15:11 mostly as multiple (potentially competiting) US's both need this Sep 17 00:19:25 SpeedEvil: still about? Sep 17 00:21:27 * rwhitby does the -force-remove dance with openmoko-sound-system[2] Sep 17 00:22:11 ... and then makes sure that the startup sound is still disabled on his neo Sep 17 00:23:11 ok, so that's both mokojournal and sound-system that need the -force-remove dance when upgrading from the 2007.08 snapshot ... Sep 17 00:24:10 hmm - and sound-theme-standard(2) Sep 17 00:29:14 rwhitby: we need a new snapshot Sep 17 00:32:44 does anyone here grok the mechanics of how gprs/gsm muxing should work? Sep 17 00:32:53 well, still need o restart gsmd in /etc/matchbox/session Sep 17 00:33:15 rwhitby: btw, have you tried putting a delay in before gsmd starts? Sep 17 00:33:35 rwhitby: another idea i had was on gsmd start was to delay and poke AT command into the uart before starting gsmd directly Sep 17 00:33:38 since it clearly does get confused Sep 17 00:33:48 the gsmd restart has always worked for me, so I haven't tried anything else. Sep 17 00:34:21 rwhitby: right, but i wonder what is *different* the second time around? Sep 17 00:34:44 ooh - new touchscreen click sound Sep 17 00:37:40 I recall from a long time ago that adding a sleep 120 before starting gsmd made it work more reliably... Sep 17 00:38:41 * cesarb cannot try that right now, since my gsmd build is somewhat divergent from the current upstream (I haven't updated for a week, plus I have the three patches for bug 766 applied) Sep 17 01:35:32 anyone else have build problems with binutils-cross lately? Sep 17 01:35:39 trying to get back in the groove Sep 17 01:58:43 happycube: is it http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2928 ? Sep 17 01:58:52 happycube: if it is, try my patch on that bug **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 17 02:59:57 2007