**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Oct 08 02:59:57 2007
Oct 08 03:03:49 <StylusEater> night
Oct 08 03:11:48 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03werner * r3107 10/developers/werner/dfu-util-r3103.patch: dfu-util-r3103.patch: patch has been merged into mainline dfu-util, deleting it
Oct 08 03:13:06 <paroneayea> hm
Oct 08 03:13:18 <paroneayea> I am indeed also experiening the "hang on 'Connected.' issue."
Oct 08 03:44:21 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03werner * r3108 10/trunk/src/host/usbreset/usbreset.c: 
Oct 08 03:44:21 <CIA-23> openmoko: usbreset.c (main): instead of skipping hubs, allow resetting them, and ignore
Oct 08 03:44:21 <CIA-23> openmoko:  the EISDIR error return if it's a root hub
Oct 08 04:20:13 * paroneayea is kinda sick of getting only "waiting for registration" on his phone :\
Oct 08 04:20:38 <paroneayea> I made calls once, but only once
Oct 08 04:48:49 <blindcoder> moin
Oct 08 05:00:41 <mbuf> libgsmd API should not be used for writing applications? else, what is the recommended way to write applications for using the GSM chipset?
Oct 08 05:13:44 <paroneayea> hey, anyone have a dialing phone?  What's the output of 
Oct 08 05:14:05 <paroneayea> ls -l /dev/ttySAC0 /usr/spool/uucp
Oct 08 05:15:04 <paroneayea> (I changed those permissions to follow http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM#Connecting_to_GSM_Modem_.28using_cu.29 ... now it shows that it's making the call from the dialer, but nothing happens, just shows the animation)
Oct 08 05:15:42 <paroneayea> any ideas?
Oct 08 05:16:53 <paroneayea> nm, I guess the permissions changed back
Oct 08 05:16:57 <paroneayea> not sure why this isn't working then
Oct 08 05:19:07 * paroneayea goes to bed
Oct 08 06:09:32 <mbuf> which build environment has libgsmd working fine?
Oct 08 06:22:36 <ljp> have fun
Oct 08 06:23:35 <ljp> hmm
Oct 08 06:25:20 * CM isn't having fun :P
Oct 08 06:28:26 <zash`> coffee!
Oct 08 06:30:49 * mickey|ICE1092 waves
Oct 08 06:34:36 <CM> mickey|ICE1092: Welcome back :D
Oct 08 06:34:50 <CM> Hope you've had a very relaxing vacation. ;)
Oct 08 06:35:11 <mickey|ICE1092> thanks :)
Oct 08 06:35:32 <mickey|ICE1092> i can hardly belief that the two weeks are already over
Oct 08 06:35:56 <CM> Vacations always feel like that.. Too short
Oct 08 06:36:00 <doc|home> I'm bored, anyone know of any cool toys I can read about to entertain myself?
Oct 08 06:36:05 <mickey|ICE1092> got some energies refreshed :)
Oct 08 06:36:14 <CM> Glad to hear that
Oct 08 06:36:39 <mickey|ICE1092> doc|home: dunno about entertainment, but the gcc optimization papers are cool stuff ;)
Oct 08 06:37:04 <doc|home> mickey|ICE1092: at 11:30 at night as a non C programmer??:)
Oct 08 06:37:24 <CM> Hehe, or Ulrich Drepper article about memory
Oct 08 06:37:38 * CM adds a 's to Drepper
Oct 08 06:39:27 <mickey|ICE1092> haven't had time to catch up with all new stuff. did i miss anything important?
Oct 08 06:39:29 * mickey|ICE1092 on the way to OEDEM07 
Oct 08 06:45:42 <CM> Well, at least calling worked without issues with the last image I tried
Oct 08 07:07:14 <abraxa__> mickey|ICE1092: Yay, welcome back!
Oct 08 07:09:59 <mickey|ICE1092> hi abraxa__ 
Oct 08 07:13:33 <lorenz> Good morning
Oct 08 07:14:46 <lorenz> Sleeping without the battery unbricked my phone, I don't know what had happend to it, but now it works fine again, thanks again, SpeedEvil 
Oct 08 07:18:13 <ljp> hi mickey|ICE1092 
Oct 08 07:18:47 * ljp wonders what the alsa 'complicated mixer API' looks like
Oct 08 07:19:06 <Mek> yay, my neo just arrived :)
Oct 08 07:19:27 <lorenz> congradulations Mek
Oct 08 07:19:41 <ljp> they have a nice smell when they are new
Oct 08 07:24:50 <lorenz> and don't forget the taste
Oct 08 07:25:00 <lorenz> (of something new for playing)
Oct 08 07:25:09 <Mek> okay, as expected, it doesn't boot out of the box :)
Oct 08 07:25:57 <lorenz> hmm, mine booted (when it first arrived) (and died with a kernel panic, because it lacked a rootfs)
Oct 08 07:26:11 <Mek> yeah, I don't call a kernel panic booting :P
Oct 08 07:26:39 <lorenz> ok, sorry, but I am used to that ;-)
Oct 08 07:26:42 <Henryk> that's what the "Some assembly required" coaster is for
Oct 08 07:26:56 <lorenz> as I do some porting stuff in in company
Oct 08 07:27:16 <lorenz> so seeing a kernel panic means booting to me
Oct 08 07:27:18 <lorenz> ;-)
Oct 08 07:28:14 <mbuf> which build environment has libgsmd working fine?
Oct 08 07:29:38 <CM> The build from october 2:nd worked for me, at least to call
Oct 08 07:31:07 <lorenz> the september 16 snapshot also seems to be quite stable in calling (after putting /etc/init.d/gsmd stop; /etc/init.d/gsmd start into /etc/matchbox/session
Oct 08 07:36:56 <viq> So the problem with BlueTooth (can't wake up the phone, thus you need to take calls from the phone and can't answer from headset) is a hardware issue, or is it possible there will be a software fix for it?
Oct 08 07:38:04 <Henryk> viq: wake-up on incoming call should be unrelated to bluetooth?
Oct 08 07:38:49 <viq> Henryk: I heard that you can't press button on BT headset or whatever device it is to answer the call, you need to do that on the phone, due to some BT issue
Oct 08 07:39:03 <viq> and they called it "wake up" or something like that
Oct 08 07:40:33 <CM> That sounds odd to me
Oct 08 07:40:56 <CM> Unless maybe the pairing fails when the phone suspends..
Oct 08 07:41:32 <Mek> hmm... when I try to flash with dfu-util it complains that more than one device is found, but dfu-util --list only shows one device...
Oct 08 07:42:17 <lorenz> Mek: what does lsusb print out?
Oct 08 07:43:40 <viq> 2007.10.06|19:17:28( Writchie) but probably not until GT03 when BT is straightened out
Oct 08 07:43:44 <viq> 2007.10.06|19:17:41( viq) What's wrong with BT now?
Oct 08 07:43:46 <viq> 2007.10.06|19:17:56( Writchie) can't be woken up from headset
Oct 08 07:43:50 <viq> 2007.10.06|19:18:20( Writchie) which means you can't press the button and use the phone - you have to physicall handle the phone
Oct 08 07:44:14 <Mek> lorenz: http://rafb.net/p/sI5j1i74.html
Oct 08 07:45:28 <viq> CM: that's where I heard it
Oct 08 07:45:52 <CM> viq: Ahh
Oct 08 07:45:57 <CM> But that's not the same is it?
Oct 08 07:46:07 <lorenz> hmm, that's ok, Mek
Oct 08 07:46:16 <CM> I mean, the phone will wake up when a call is incoming..
Oct 08 07:46:30 <CM> But you can't wake it up with just a bt headset.
Oct 08 07:46:45 <CM> Or am I misunderstanding everything?
Oct 08 07:46:52 <Mek> the output of dfu-util --list is like the example given for the neo in u-boot Runtime Mode, not in DFU Mode, could that be the problem?
Oct 08 07:46:57 <viq> I have no idea
Oct 08 07:47:20 <viq> CM: they mentioned something about JPFS
Oct 08 07:47:25 <lorenz> so you used dfu-util with root priviliges and tried flashing according to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko (I guess you did, but asking to b sure)
Oct 08 07:47:54 <lorenz> hmm, and you are in u-boot mode?
Oct 08 07:48:05 <lorenz> so you can see the u-boot menu?
Oct 08 07:48:12 <Mek> I see the menu, yes
Oct 08 07:48:31 <lorenz> ok, that's weird
Oct 08 07:48:56 <Mek> perhaps should I first flash u-boot? or should that be unnecisary?
Oct 08 07:49:32 <lorenz> that's unnecessary, afaik
Oct 08 07:49:49 <lorenz> (though I did it, but not as my first task)
Oct 08 07:52:08 <lorenz> can you connect via serial over usb with your u-boot?
Oct 08 07:53:01 <Mek> how do I test that? (btw, I did get it in dfu-mode now, but it stil won't flash..)
Oct 08 07:53:30 <Mek> ah, now it also flashes...
Oct 08 07:54:08 <lorenz> ah, lucky you
Oct 08 08:03:22 <jeddy3> slightly OT: is anynone using openembedded branch for dreambox software?
Oct 08 08:06:09 <mbuf> if applications should not use libgsm_passthrough (as per, http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=176#c1), what is the recommend way to send/receive AT responses on the Neo1973 with OM?
Oct 08 08:16:18 <Hopscotch> moin
Oct 08 08:52:38 <Mek> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/96d3d28d7078b3d271c41e7a56e30445.png <-- now I 'only' need to add the code to actually observe a frequency, and I have a nice tuner device :) (okay, the way it looks also can use some improvements :))
Oct 08 08:58:04 <jeddy3> oh, btw, what is this gps utility shown on scap?? (for example http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/0d4524f651b8bddea6dd103b694858de.png )
Oct 08 08:58:19 <jeddy3> nice work Mek!
Oct 08 08:58:30 <Henryk> Mek: what's that?
Oct 08 08:59:04 <Mek> Henryk: it's the start of my tuner application running on my brand new neo :)
Oct 08 09:09:21 <sandos> Mek: so youre doing some sort of FFT on the audio from the mic?
Oct 08 09:09:40 <sandos> os are there specific algorithms for detecting a single tone
Oct 08 09:09:43 <Mek> not yet... that isd the next step...
Oct 08 09:09:44 <sandos> I guess there is, actually
Oct 08 09:10:22 <sandos> http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20020819S0057
Oct 08 09:10:24 <sandos> that for example
Oct 08 09:10:51 <Mek> yeah, there is plenty information available... I guess I'll make the algorithm that is used configurable :)
Oct 08 09:10:56 <Henryk> Well, the simplest algorithm would be a frequency counter that simply counts zero crossing
Oct 08 09:10:57 <sandos> ah
Oct 08 09:13:03 <SpeedEvil> fft is probably the best way.
Oct 08 09:13:15 <SpeedEvil> And code is everywhere on the net
Oct 08 09:13:16 <Mek> will the neo's processor be fast enough for fft?
Oct 08 09:13:23 <SpeedEvil> easily
Oct 08 09:13:24 <Henryk> well, not "the best", but the most versatile
Oct 08 09:13:51 * XorA thinks fast fft library is already in OE
Oct 08 09:14:01 <SpeedEvil> An easy, widely deployed way.
Oct 08 09:37:48 <mbuf> how do i find out my gsm firmware version?
Oct 08 09:40:21 <mbuf> ok, have to use AT+CGMR with manually using GSM method
Oct 08 10:00:52 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03thomas * r3109 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/icons/openmoko-standard/ (6 files in 3 dirs): * Add openmoko-calculator icon
Oct 08 10:01:24 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03chris * r3110 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokoui2/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-finger-scroll.c): 
Oct 08 10:01:24 <CIA-23> openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-scroll.c:
Oct 08 10:01:24 <CIA-23> openmoko: Import window-ordering fix from libhildondesktop, fix odd
Oct 08 10:01:24 <CIA-23> openmoko: event-eating bug where only 2nd click after using MokoFingerScroll
Oct 08 10:01:24 <CIA-23> openmoko: outside of a MokoFingerScroll would work
Oct 08 10:03:33 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03chris * r3111 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokoui2/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-finger-scroll.c): 
Oct 08 10:03:33 <CIA-23> openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-scroll.c:
Oct 08 10:03:33 <CIA-23> openmoko: Fix typo g_list_prepend instead of g_list_append
Oct 08 10:08:03 <blindcoder> isn't that a thinko?
Oct 08 10:13:49 <mbuf> what is the difference between uboot-gta01bv4-latest.bin and u-boot-gta01bv4-1.2.0+git20070917+svnr2943-r0.bin ? which one should I use?
Oct 08 10:14:19 <ghoulsblade> hi all, i think i flashed the wrong kernel, but it won't let me flash again saying No such Alternate Setting: "kernel" ,  how can i switch from u-boot Runtime Mode to u-boot DFU Mode ?
Oct 08 10:14:50 <alphaone> mbuf: latest usually is a symlink to the latest image
Oct 08 10:15:53 <mbuf> alphaone, ok
Oct 08 10:17:24 <Henryk> for some reason though the "latest" symlink uses an absolute path
Oct 08 10:23:29 <gordonsyme> How do I completely clean the webkit-gtk package? Including the downloaded source and all. I have run `make clean-package-webkit-gtk` but that didn't seem to clean out the sources.
Oct 08 10:29:28 <mbuf> gordonsyme, i was stuck at problem earlier
Oct 08 10:29:52 <mbuf> gordonsyme, * that problem, does it fail at icu?
Oct 08 10:30:17 <mbuf> gordonsyme, if you rebuild glibc, and try to build again, it will pass, but, will fail at icu
Oct 08 10:32:46 <gordonsyme> mbuf: fun...
Oct 08 10:32:56 <gordonsyme> mbuf: think I'll just wait until tomorrow
Oct 08 10:33:10 <gordonsyme> mbuf: rebuilding glibc is a pain
Oct 08 10:33:49 <mbuf> gordonsyme, rebuilding glibc didn't fix it; did "make clean; make" took me 8 hours to rebuild, and openmoko-devel-image built fine; still make failed at gnokiigsm/virtmodem.c
Oct 08 10:34:40 * mbuf wonders if he should keep a dedicated system just to do rebuilds
Oct 08 10:55:23 <Henryk> Shoragan: should I be able to build linux-openmoko-devel?
Oct 08 10:55:38 <Shoragan> yes, you should :)
Oct 08 10:56:21 <Henryk> hmm.
Oct 08 10:56:22 <Henryk> NOTE: Task failed: Error: /home/ploetz/openmoko/2007.2/openembedded/packages/linux/linux-openmoko-devel/./squashfs-2.6.23.patch not found.
Oct 08 10:56:22 <Henryk> NOTE: package linux-openmoko-devel-2.6.22+2.6.23-rc9-moko11+svnr3101-r2: task do_patch: failed
Oct 08 10:58:30 <Shoragan> oh
Oct 08 11:06:27 <Shoragan> Henryk, it's now pushed
Oct 08 11:08:40 <Henryk> ah, that's better
Oct 08 11:14:38 <Mek> hmm.. nice... switching openmoko <-> qtopia without rebooting seems to work quite good...
Oct 08 11:20:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3112 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (gta02-core.patch smedia-glamo.patch): 
Oct 08 11:20:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: glamo/gta02: The end address of resouces should be minus by one. This patch
Oct 08 11:20:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: also fixes a typo where glamo-3d uses glamo-2d's resources. (Chia-I Wu)
Oct 08 11:22:53 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3113 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/smedia-glamo.patch: glamo: raise frame rate from 40Hz to 60Hz: DCLK ration is now 2:1 instead of 3:1 (Chia-I Wu)
Oct 08 11:23:41 <Mek> cd
Oct 08 11:23:48 <Mek> oops, wrong terminal :)
Oct 08 11:27:34 <lokolb> hehe: rm -rf /* (and take the other terminal) *grin*
Oct 08 11:27:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03thomas * r3114 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokojournal2/ (7 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
Oct 08 11:27:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: Patch by: Emmanuele Bassi <ebassi@o-hand.com>
Oct 08 11:27:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: * doc/reference/Makefile.am:
Oct 08 11:27:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: * doc/reference/libmokojournal-docs.sgml:
Oct 08 11:27:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: * doc/reference/libmokojournal.types
Oct 08 11:27:51 <CIA-23> openmoko: * doc/reference/libmokojournal-sections.txt
Oct 08 11:27:55 <CIA-23> openmoko: * mokojournal/moko-journal.c:
Oct 08 11:30:46 <Shoragan> Henryk, is it working now?
Oct 08 11:31:40 <Henryk> Shoragan: i did a make clean before, so it's still building other stuff (glibc currently)
Oct 08 11:37:29 <mbuf> does "libgsmtool -m atcmd" "AT+CGMI" work for anyone? if yes, which image?
Oct 08 11:40:51 <Henryk> AT+CGMI
Oct 08 11:40:52 <Henryk> STR=`AT+CGMI'
Oct 08 11:40:52 <Henryk> RSTR=`+CGMI: "FIC/OpenMoko"'
Oct 08 11:41:22 <Henryk> custom built image, built something like yesterday
Oct 08 11:42:08 <zecke|OEDEM2007> Shoragan: gobby works
Oct 08 11:42:30 <Shoragan> you want to try it?
Oct 08 11:53:57 <cardone> If one would like to program openmoko appz...there is a way to have the neo1973 for free?!
Oct 08 11:54:41 <Mek> I think it requires a bit more than just wanting to program for it...
Oct 08 11:55:32 <XorA> mickeyl: starts to hang himself
Oct 08 12:06:59 <ghoulsblade> hi all, i think i flashed the wrong kernel, but it won't let me flash again saying No such Alternate Setting: "kernel" ,  dfu-util -l says  "USB Device Firmware Upgrade"  , i've seen this in the wiki on the page about dfu-util  for the "runtime-mode",    how can i switch from u-boot Runtime Mode to u-boot DFU Mode ? 
Oct 08 12:07:36 <mbuf> ghoulsblade, what has kernel got to do with u-boot?
Oct 08 12:08:10 <mbuf> ghoulsblade, can't you reflash the kernel? use -d 0x1457:0x5119 with dfu-util to select the flash device
Oct 08 12:08:32 <ghoulsblade> isn't uboot mode used for flashing ?  this is the wiki page i saw  "runtime-mode" and "dfu-mode" http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dfu-util   
Oct 08 12:08:42 <mbuf> ghoulsblade, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko#Actually_flashing_things_into_the_device
Oct 08 12:09:01 <cesarb> ghoulsblade: dfu-util automatically switches uboot to dfu mode
Oct 08 12:09:02 <mbuf> ghoulsblade, you press Aux button for few seconds, and then start pressing the power button to enter u-boot mode
Oct 08 12:09:11 <cesarb> ghoulsblade: you should see a message on the neo screen when that happens
Oct 08 12:09:36 <ghoulsblade> after starting with aux i only get two choices : boot and factory reset
Oct 08 12:09:55 <ghoulsblade> when i do   ./dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D ./openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01.jffs2
Oct 08 12:10:05 <ghoulsblade> it says     No such Alternate Setting: "rootfs"
Oct 08 12:10:25 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: oh, that's not good. there should be more than just boot and factory reset
Oct 08 12:10:26 <ghoulsblade> ./dfu-util -l  
Oct 08 12:10:36 <ghoulsblade> says lots of undefined partitions
Oct 08 12:10:37 <cesarb> ghoulsblade: then your uboot environment is hosed, and you thus lost your partition table
Oct 08 12:10:51 * cesarb has to go
Oct 08 12:10:59 <ghoulsblade> complete output here : http://www.pasteserver.net/5158
Oct 08 12:11:35 <ghoulsblade> ok, i have the developer kit including the "debug board" , do i have to use that to fix it ?
Oct 08 12:13:23 <Henryk> if you can still get into the uboot console you shouldn't need the debug board (though you can)
Oct 08 12:14:21 <ghoulsblade> haven't figured out how to get into the console yet,   cu -l /dev/ttyACM0   says it is connected, but i can't type anything
Oct 08 12:15:33 <Henryk> try screen /dev/ttyACM0 115200    :)  I find cu extremely userunfriendly
Oct 08 12:16:26 <Henryk> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch#Configure_the_boot_loader seems to be a good way, though I can't guarantee for it. would someone with neo experience please confirm this? roh?
Oct 08 12:18:13 <ghoulsblade> thx for the link, i'll look into it =)      cu -l /dev/ttyACM0 -s 115200   : says connected but i still can't type
Oct 08 12:19:09 <mbuf> ghoulsblade, open another terminal, and use "stty -F /dev/ttySAC0 crtscts", now in the first terminal AT should work
Oct 08 12:19:42 <Henryk> mbuf: that was the wrong text snippet :)
Oct 08 12:20:39 <mbuf> Henryk, not this one? http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=256#c6
Oct 08 12:20:53 <ghoulsblade> hmm i tried   stty -F /dev/ttyACM0  crtscts    
Oct 08 12:21:14 <ghoulsblade> but it still didn't work =\    
Oct 08 12:21:25 <ghoulsblade> SAC0 wasn't found
Oct 08 12:21:33 <mbuf> ghoulsblade, you are trying from the host PC ?
Oct 08 12:21:41 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: hmm, there's a chance that your uboot console is set to serial then. then you would need the menu in the environment to set it to usb in order to use the usb to restore the menu
Oct 08 12:21:42 <ghoulsblade> yes
Oct 08 12:21:46 <Henryk> mbuf: you're in the wrong film
Oct 08 12:21:55 <mbuf> Henryk, need to catch some sleep; sorry!
Oct 08 12:22:05 <Henryk> mbuf: ghoulsblade wants to connect to the neo uboot from the host, not the modem from the neo
Oct 08 12:22:17 <ghoulsblade> i'm trying to access the console on the neo , but i can't access it so far
Oct 08 12:22:28 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: you should still be able to use a dfu download. wait a moment
Oct 08 12:23:02 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: you have a GTA01Bv4, right?
Oct 08 12:23:02 <ghoulsblade> btw, thx for helping =)
Oct 08 12:23:33 <ghoulsblade> don't know about Bv4, but i have Neo1973, shipment 1 , developer box with debugboard
Oct 08 12:23:38 <ghoulsblade> (but haven't used the board yet)
Oct 08 12:23:40 <Henryk> ok
Oct 08 12:23:51 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: btw, did you try to factory reset menu option yet?
Oct 08 12:23:59 <ghoulsblade> yes, didn't help
Oct 08 12:25:04 <ghoulsblade> i started experimenting with the neo just today, first thing i did was trying to flash a kernel and rootfs, but i couldn't find the names listed in the wiki, so i took a rather new one
Oct 08 12:25:15 <ghoulsblade>  sudo ./dfu-util -a kernel -R -D ./uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-fic-gta01.bin
Oct 08 12:25:21 <ghoulsblade> and   sudo ./dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D ./OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071007-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2
Oct 08 12:25:54 <ghoulsblade> that worked without error, but i couldn't boot afterwards, and the boot menu looked different (just boot and factory settings left)
Oct 08 12:26:41 <tuukkah> sounds as if you overwrote the uboot env
Oct 08 12:26:51 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: download http://people.openmoko.org/henryk/uboot_env-20071008
Oct 08 12:27:20 <Henryk> then do    dfu-util -d 0x1457:0x5119 -a 2 -D uboot_env-20071008
Oct 08 12:27:36 <ghoulsblade> thx =) i'll try that
Oct 08 12:28:05 <tuukkah> isn't it weird how the env got overwritten in the first place?
Oct 08 12:28:19 <Henryk> I give no warranties about that, but it should restore your uboot env.  But even if it bricks your neo, if you have the debug board you should still be able to unbrick, it's just more complicated
Oct 08 12:29:06 <ghoulsblade> Henryk,  thx, it seems to have worked without errors, i'll restart the new now
Oct 08 12:29:53 <ghoulsblade> yay, it worked, i've got the old boot menu with more options again, thank you very much =D
Oct 08 12:31:46 <Henryk> fine
Oct 08 12:41:07 <CM> Henryk: I downloaded your uboot_env too
Oct 08 12:41:32 <CM> I'll try flashing it later. I have a problem with my mtd partitions... Btw: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bricked
Oct 08 12:42:26 <Henryk> CM: that's a different story, yes
Oct 08 12:42:54 <CM> Yes, it is. Thanks anyway though :-)
Oct 08 12:44:34 <Henryk> (Note that I increased the boot delay timeout in my env, so don't be surprised if it doesn't boot unless you select "Boot" in the menu)
Oct 08 12:45:01 <CM> Henryk: Ah, but that's good in my opinion ;)
Oct 08 12:46:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03mickey * r3115 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/themes/ (2 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-standard-2[-qvga]: set GtkMenu::scroll-arrow-vlength to something reasonable
Oct 08 12:48:03 <Henryk> CM: yeah, but it kind of breaks the "switch on, oh pretty graphics *boot* more pretty graphics *booted* ah there it is" user experience
Oct 08 12:50:08 <ghoulsblade> hmm , after flashing kernel and rootfs i got the same problem as before,     i did that : 
Oct 08 12:50:08 <ghoulsblade> sudo ./dfu-util -a kernel -R -D ./uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-fic-gta01.bin
Oct 08 12:50:08 <ghoulsblade> sudo ./dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D ./OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071007-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2
Oct 08 12:50:22 <ghoulsblade> now the boot menu has only two entries again
Oct 08 12:50:22 <Henryk> *uhh* locale generation takes ages
Oct 08 12:50:44 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: you somehow keep messing up your partitions
Oct 08 12:51:07 <ghoulsblade> i haven't inserted memory cards, do i need to do that ?
Oct 08 12:51:15 <Henryk> no, that's ok
Oct 08 12:51:41 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: flash the env again, reboot into uboot, set the console to usb and then cu or screen into the uboot console
Oct 08 12:51:47 <ghoulsblade> could the dfu-util be a broken version ?
Oct 08 12:52:08 <Henryk> then examine the partition layout, though i'm a bit lost there. someone might want to take over?
Oct 08 12:52:34 <Henryk> (I'm at OEDEM currently and we'll be leaving for lunch soon)
Oct 08 12:53:36 <Ralp1> seems to be a uboot issure
Oct 08 12:54:05 <Ralp1> did you flash a new uboot as well?
Oct 08 12:54:54 <ghoulsblade> hmm i successfully connected to the console (first time for me) , how do ich check partition layout ? fdisk didn't work
Oct 08 12:55:18 <Ralp1> fdisk? was hast du vor?
Oct 08 12:55:30 <ghoulsblade> i expected linux =)
Oct 08 12:55:48 <Ralp1> u mean what?
Oct 08 12:56:07 <Ralp1> ok what is your sticking point here?
Oct 08 12:56:18 <ghoulsblade> Henryk, said i should check the partition layout =) no idea how to, i'm a newbee
Oct 08 12:56:44 <Ralp1> yes, but what did you want to acomplish
Oct 08 12:56:44 <ghoulsblade> the point is my partions seem to mess up every time i flash kernel+rootfs
Oct 08 12:56:59 <Ralp1> on you neo?
Oct 08 12:57:10 <Ralp1> or on you host
Oct 08 12:57:13 <ghoulsblade> yes, i just started toying with it today
Oct 08 12:57:40 <Ralp1> ok so you have flashed uboot before?
Oct 08 12:58:06 <ghoulsblade> after these two commands my bootmenu is reduced to 2 entries : boot and reset factory settings or so, and i cannot boot (bad magic number or so) or even flash unless i overwrite the uboot again
Oct 08 12:58:14 <ghoulsblade>  sudo ./dfu-util -a kernel -R -D ./uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-fic-gta01.bin
Oct 08 12:58:18 <ghoulsblade>  sudo ./dfu-util -a rootfs -R -D ./OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071007-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2
Oct 08 12:59:15 <Ralp1> well i didnt flash uboot for a while now, because i didnt need to - but maybe you just should do that
Oct 08 12:59:18 <ghoulsblade> i didn't flash it at the first try, but i couldn't flash anything else after that  , so henryk gave me a uboot to flash and that worked
Oct 08 12:59:46 <ghoulsblade> but it breaks again after i flash kernel+rootfs
Oct 08 12:59:49 <Ralp1> ok and then you had all the options on you boot menu
Oct 08 13:00:18 <Ralp1> didnt had that problem - strange
Oct 08 13:00:39 <ghoulsblade> when i first turned the neo on i had all the options, after flashing kernel+rootfs there were only two (boot + factory) , after flashing the uboot from henryk ,all options are back
Oct 08 13:00:59 <Ralp1> aha
Oct 08 13:01:17 <Ralp1> ok - well how about flashing a newer version of openmoko
Oct 08 13:01:22 <ghoulsblade> so at least i can repeat the process now with different kernels and rootfs systems
Oct 08 13:01:49 <ghoulsblade> i tried the second pair now, and it's the same result
Oct 08 13:02:16 <ghoulsblade> at first i tried those two :  ./uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-fic-gta01.bin   ./OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071007-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2
Oct 08 13:02:33 <ghoulsblade> now i've tried those two : 	./uImage-fic-gta01-latest.bin ./openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01.jffs2  
Oct 08 13:02:48 <ghoulsblade> but still same error
Oct 08 13:03:04 <CM> ghoulsblade: You seem to have the same problem as me
Oct 08 13:03:12 <CM> My partitions are messed up
Oct 08 13:03:17 <Ralp1> well thats probably just the symlinked versions
Oct 08 13:03:20 <ghoulsblade> could you point me to a good version please ? i'm a bit confused about the filesnames
Oct 08 13:03:26 <CM> So when I flash the kernel, it overwrites the uboot_env
Oct 08 13:03:45 <Ralp1> dfu-util?
Oct 08 13:03:51 <ghoulsblade> ah, ok, at least i'm not the only one having the problem
Oct 08 13:03:54 <CM> So I only have 2 items in my menu
Oct 08 13:04:02 <Ralp1> maybe dfu-util is broken CM?
Oct 08 13:04:05 <ghoulsblade> yep, me too, only two items after booting
Oct 08 13:04:10 <ghoulsblade> i mean flashing 
Oct 08 13:04:30 <CM> ghoulsblade: Check http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=765 and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bricked
Oct 08 13:04:45 <ghoulsblade> thx, will read them
Oct 08 13:04:53 <CM> ghoulsblade: Do you have a debug board?
Oct 08 13:05:41 <ghoulsblade> yes
Oct 08 13:05:51 <CM> Good, I don't.. :P
Oct 08 13:06:05 <ghoulsblade> but do i need it ? i can get the full menu back by booting the uboot from henryk 
Oct 08 13:06:28 <ghoulsblade> ( http://people.openmoko.org/henryk/uboot_env-20071008   and then   dfu-util -d 0x1457:0x5119 -a 2 -D uboot_env-20071008  )
Oct 08 13:06:37 <CM> ghoulsblade: I will do that too
Oct 08 13:06:38 <Ralp1> ghoulsblade - i would try a older dfu-util 
Oct 08 13:06:50 <LaF0rge> ARGH
Oct 08 13:06:52 <ghoulsblade> ok, i'll look if i find one
Oct 08 13:06:57 <CM> ghoulsblade: But if the partition table is bad, you might need to use the debugboard
Oct 08 13:07:03 <LaF0rge> please DO NEVER copy the environment of a different device into another device
Oct 08 13:07:27 <LaF0rge> the partition device is specific for _every unit_
Oct 08 13:07:38 <LaF0rge> s/partition device/partition table/
Oct 08 13:07:38 <apt> LaF0rge meant: the partition table is specific for _every unit_
Oct 08 13:07:44 <ghoulsblade> huh ?   /me is newbee  here, sorry, that suggestion was from henryk
Oct 08 13:08:08 <SpeedEvil> A bad blocks thing I assume.
Oct 08 13:08:30 <CM> But uboot_env is not a partition table, it's just the menu or?
Oct 08 13:08:39 <LaF0rge> speed: yes, should all be documented in the wiki :)
Oct 08 13:08:52 <LaF0rge> the environment _contains_ the partition table
Oct 08 13:09:01 <CM> Ah, ok
Oct 08 13:09:25 <CM> Is there any way to repair it?
Oct 08 13:09:45 <SpeedEvil> So it'd be a good idea to back it up?
Oct 08 13:09:54 <kristian-m> LaF0rge what do you mean by environment? - a u-boot dump?
Oct 08 13:09:55 <LaF0rge> you can always recreate it
Oct 08 13:10:02 <LaF0rge> u-boot_env
Oct 08 13:10:05 <LaF0rge> guys, please read the docs ;)
Oct 08 13:10:06 <kristian-m> i see
Oct 08 13:10:12 <CM> But you will need a debugboard to recreate it?
Oct 08 13:10:15 <LaF0rge> no
Oct 08 13:10:39 <CM> Ok. Good... 
Oct 08 13:10:46 * CM will read some docs
Oct 08 13:10:57 * LaF0rge tries to find his wiki page about bad block handling
Oct 08 13:11:30 <ghoulsblade> i did read the instructions in the wiki, but couldn't find the filenames for initial flash , so i took some new ones, and could neither boot nor flash after that (i did NOT change uboot at first, just kernel + rootfs)
Oct 08 13:11:42 <LaF0rge> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NAND_bad_blocks#Partition_Table
Oct 08 13:11:49 <ghoulsblade> thx =)
Oct 08 13:12:28 <CM> Ah, nice
Oct 08 13:17:12 <CM> Hmm.. Looks a bit scary without a debug board.
Oct 08 13:19:23 <tuukkah> CM, running dynpart?
Oct 08 13:19:33 <CM> tuukkah: Yes
Oct 08 13:20:26 <tuukkah> i wouldn't say so, if it doesn't do any changes to the config unless you saveenv too
Oct 08 13:20:28 <LaF0rge> tuukkah: no, is not dangerous. first dynpart, then saveenv
Oct 08 13:20:58 <LaF0rge> yes, you can also run 'dynpart' at every boot manually if you don't want to save it. but why not save it if your environment is busted already?
Oct 08 13:21:15 <CM> But how do I run it?
Oct 08 13:21:31 <tuukkah> it may be good to check that the numbers it produces are sensible
Oct 08 13:21:44 <CM> The serial console is open for a few seconds even if I don't have the menu item for it or?
Oct 08 13:21:52 <tuukkah> there *is* a risk of hosing the uboot, i suppose
Oct 08 13:22:35 <LaF0rge> CM: just boot while AUX is pressed and you can acccess ttyACM0
Oct 08 13:22:41 <CM> I regret not getting a debug board. Hadn't planned to play around with uboot or partitions like this, but unfortunately I guess I managed to do that anyway.
Oct 08 13:22:45 <CM> Ok, thanks.
Oct 08 13:22:59 <CM> I thought I needed to have the USB to Serial item on the boot menu
Oct 08 13:23:25 <tuukkah> usb console seems to be the default
Oct 08 13:23:51 <LaF0rge> tuukah: if it's in the environment ;)
Oct 08 13:24:34 <CM> Will a "nand erase" remove everything, uboot too?
Oct 08 13:24:47 <CM> I'm not sure what ". The BBT scanning code assumes that the NAND is completely erased, i.e. only contains 0xff as content. Any block that contains bytes != 0xff in the OOB is marked as "factory bad" block." really means
Oct 08 13:26:05 <LaF0rge> CM: yes
Oct 08 13:26:16 <LaF0rge> CM: you don't want bad block scanning
Oct 08 13:26:20 <LaF0rge> CM: you want a partition table.
Oct 08 13:26:30 <CM> Ok
Oct 08 13:26:32 <SpeedEvil> You can't reliably scan for bad blocks
Oct 08 13:27:07 <CM> I'll just try the dynpart and see how it goes
Oct 08 13:27:23 <CM> LaF0rge: Thanks a lot :)
Oct 08 13:30:45 <Ralp1> allright - now again who can help me with SIM stuff
Oct 08 13:31:22 <Ralp1> i want to read data from SIM - can I do this directly or just through the gsm modem?
Oct 08 13:31:27 <tuukkah> LaF0rge, is there a plan on how to enable ATH while ATD is in progress?
Oct 08 13:35:00 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3116 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/s3c2410_udc-2440_dual_packet-workaround.patch: add patch from werner to work around s3c2440 dual packet mode usb hangs
Oct 08 13:35:14 <abraxa_> Ralp1: From what I understand the SIM is hooked up to the GSM modem, leaving only AT commands to access it
Oct 08 13:35:31 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3117 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/series: add dual packet workaround to series
Oct 08 13:37:01 <Ralp1> abraxa - yes i thought so
Oct 08 13:38:09 <Ralp1> i have been browsing and googling all day long - i cant find a AT Command for reading the Welcome Text and other specific Data on the SIM
Oct 08 13:38:24 <Ralp1> someone can help me out here?
Oct 08 13:38:55 <Ralp1> maybe i just havend typed in the correct keyword yet
Oct 08 13:39:57 <Ralp1> CIA-23 is a robot, right?
Oct 08 13:40:45 <ynezz> it is
Oct 08 13:40:51 <abraxa_> Yeah it is - and did you check the GSM specification?
Oct 08 13:42:41 <Ralph> yes - i have read through that 0707.pdf
Oct 08 13:44:00 <Ralph> there is a lot of stuff all around the PhoneBook and SMS stuff but no Text / Operator Data 
Oct 08 13:44:24 <Ralph> operator only is listed from network
Oct 08 13:46:07 <abraxa_> Writchie: Do you still have the Enfora engineering mode manual for the EDG0108TN001? The download is now auth protected
Oct 08 13:46:59 <abraxa_> Same question goes to kristian-m and rwhitby ;)
Oct 08 13:48:04 <abraxa_> Never mind, found it
Oct 08 13:59:28 * SpeedEvil wanders over his pdf dir.
Oct 08 14:01:26 <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/en.pfd
Oct 08 14:02:19 <SpeedEvil> df
Oct 08 14:03:34 <abraxa_> Thanks, SpeedEvil, I was just trying the direct link and it failed - browing it on the page succeeded however :)
Oct 08 14:03:56 <SpeedEvil> h
Oct 08 14:04:00 <SpeedEvil> k even
Oct 08 14:05:34 <_diego__> how can i add a new app, to the openmoko-today menu?
Oct 08 14:09:28 <Henryk> ghoulsblade: ah, I'm just back from lunch and wanted to tell you about it not being a good idea to copy the env from one device to another (I met roh on the way), but as I see LaF0rge already did that
Oct 08 14:10:06 <CM> Henryk: And LaF0rge gave us tips how to fix it :)
Oct 08 14:10:15 <Henryk> CM: fine
Oct 08 14:10:39 <Henryk> roh gave me these too and suggested a final solution would be to extend uboot
Oct 08 14:14:19 <abraxa_> _diego__: Create a .desktop entry in /usr/share/applications/
Oct 08 14:18:46 <abraxa_> Ralp1: What part of the SIM do you want to access in particular?
Oct 08 14:19:20 <Henryk> Ralp1: there are two AT commands to get sim access
Oct 08 14:19:43 <Henryk> restricted (giving you only phonebook and similar) and generic (giving you everything except GSM related)
Oct 08 14:20:34 <Henryk> Ralp1: get yourself a copy of GSM 07.07 and look up +CRSM and +CSIM
Oct 08 14:21:51 <_diego__> abraxa_, thanks
Oct 08 14:33:28 <Henryk> Shoragan: kernel built cleanly, now flashing
Oct 08 14:36:18 <guaqua> make update-makefile && make clean && make setup && make update && make should be enough to clean everything up and get the most up-to-date stuff?
Oct 08 14:37:04 <Mek> is 'make  openmoko-devel-image' supposed to be failing with some undefined references when compiling webkit-gtk?
Oct 08 14:38:46 <guaqua> let's take that make setup out of there
Oct 08 14:39:22 <Henryk> Mek: it's not actually supposed to, but there are some known problems with that code
Oct 08 14:40:12 <tuukkah> Mek, i needed to remove the webkit stuff from tmp/ before the build succeeded
Oct 08 14:41:28 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03thomas * r3118 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokojournal2/ (ChangeLog doc/reference/Makefile.am): * doc/reference/Makefile.am: Fix spurious += to single =
Oct 08 14:42:22 <tuukkah> does anyone get more than an error as a response to AT+CNUM?
Oct 08 14:43:17 <gordonsyme> Mek: does for me :/
Oct 08 14:44:08 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3119 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta02-core.patch: 
Oct 08 14:44:08 <CIA-23> openmoko: GTA02: add definitions for gsensor GPIO and IRQ
Oct 08 14:44:08 <CIA-23> openmoko: GTA02: vbus_draw is a void function, not int
Oct 08 14:44:50 <Henryk> tuukkah: works for me
Oct 08 14:44:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3120 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/lis302dl.patch: use new #defines for gta02 gsensor IRQ and GPIO
Oct 08 14:45:12 <tuukkah> Mek, gordonsyme, specifically, the files i needed to remove were tmp/staging/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/lib/libWebKitGtk.*
Oct 08 14:45:36 <tuukkah> Henryk, and you get you phone number or?
Oct 08 14:45:42 <gordonsyme> tuukkah: ta
Oct 08 14:46:02 <Henryk> tuukkah: yeah, get my phone number
Oct 08 14:46:14 <Henryk> Shoragan: scrolling is more fluid now
Oct 08 14:47:10 <tuukkah> Henryk, i get "+CME ERROR: 22" so perhaps my sim card doesn't include my number...
Oct 08 14:47:40 <Henryk> 22 is not found. strange
Oct 08 14:53:16 <tuukkah> nothing important though
Oct 08 14:55:52 <hrw> tuukkah: AT+CMEE=2 - then CME errors will be in text not only numbers
Oct 08 14:56:54 <tuukkah> hrw, thanks! i suppose gsmd won't like that though
Oct 08 15:12:59 <zecke|OEDEM2007> LaF0rge: I think I did already
Oct 08 15:13:29 <zecke|OEDEM2007> LaF0rge: I have two log-ins as my first password included a '"' which can't be entered...
Oct 08 15:16:36 <LaF0rge> zecke: oh, you did already. sorry. must have missed it
Oct 08 15:17:32 <zecke|OEDEM2007> LaF0rge: well, the CfP has been restarted they want to focus on developers even more
Oct 08 15:18:40 <zecke|OEDEM2007> haha, my talk even starts with "Using" :}
Oct 08 15:19:56 <PBeck> hi
Oct 08 15:20:04 <LaF0rge> zecke: but it's used by developers
Oct 08 15:20:08 <LaF0rge> zecke: hasn't been rejected
Oct 08 15:20:20 <robtaylor> mickeyl: enjoy your holiday? :)
Oct 08 15:23:15 <zecke|OEDEM2007> LaF0rge: yes, and I assume the old "users first, get stuck, get developers" approach
Oct 08 15:26:16 <zecke|OEDEM2007> LaF0rge: I'm keen on going to FOSS.IN, so I would appreciate getting feedback soon so I can adjust
Oct 08 15:31:51 <CM> Am I the only one having trouble building webkit-gtk? http://rafb.net/p/RWkOeR55.html
Oct 08 15:35:16 <ScaredyCat> probably
Oct 08 15:37:15 <zecke|OEDEM2007> CM: bitbake -crebuild qmake2-native icu; bitbake webkit-gtk
Oct 08 15:38:22 * Ralp1 going home
Oct 08 15:39:04 <CM> zecke|OEDEM2007: Thanks! :)
Oct 08 15:54:08 <ScaredyCat> rm -rf / too
Oct 08 15:55:51 <mwester> ScaredyCat:  I just tried that, but it didn't seem to fix my problem. :(
Oct 08 15:56:06 <Henryk> exit the chroot first :)
Oct 08 15:56:09 <ScaredyCat> it should fix *all* your problems
Oct 08 15:56:23 * ScaredyCat pats Henryk
Oct 08 15:58:22 <polz> arrrrrr
Oct 08 15:58:38 <polz> could someone please let me pirate their gpsd ? :P
Oct 08 16:01:18 <kristian-m> me too
Oct 08 16:01:24 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3121 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (s3c2410-pwm.patch series): Add new S3C2410 PWM core (Javi Roman)
Oct 08 16:04:06 <polz> I'd like to show the TV viewers in Slovenia that the GPS on the Neo1973 works :P
Oct 08 16:04:31 <Tv> polz: you want to show piracy on national television?
Oct 08 16:04:42 <Tv> that might send the wrong message..
Oct 08 16:05:07 <polz> Tv: that message is still better than "it has a GPS chip but you can't use it."
Oct 08 16:26:41 <abraxa_> Does anyone happen to know how to read values from GtkSettings?
Oct 08 16:32:51 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03werner * r3122 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: 
Oct 08 16:32:51 <CIA-23> openmoko: main.c (main): don't invoke resolve_device_path unless we need to resolve a
Oct 08 16:32:51 <CIA-23> openmoko:  path name (zero return code caused confusion)
Oct 08 16:36:33 <gamin> any word about the release of the gllin?
Oct 08 16:37:59 <cb22> gamin, first rule of gllin: don't speak of gllin :)
Oct 08 16:39:29 <gamin> cb22: but was to be released "any day" months ago :(
Oct 08 16:40:23 <gamin> so nobody using the gps, nobody using the phone?
Oct 08 16:40:43 <gamin> except for some development / playing around?
Oct 08 16:40:44 <LaF0rge> well, you can have the oabi version, no problem
Oct 08 16:41:24 <Henryk> I'm playing around with the gps. (oabi in chroot)
Oct 08 16:41:38 <abraxa_> LaF0rge: Does that mean it's legal to distribute the oabi binary now?
Oct 08 16:42:36 <LaF0rge> abraxa: no, only for us and under certain circumstances
Oct 08 16:42:57 <abraxa_> LaF0rge: Ah, okay
Oct 08 16:44:19 <gamin> is there any status page on the wiki concerning powermanagement, gsmd and gps/gllin?
Oct 08 16:44:57 <SpeedEvil> Neo1973:GTA01:Power Managment
Oct 08 16:45:00 <SpeedEvil> or something
Oct 08 16:45:20 <SpeedEvil> That's 
Oct 08 16:45:22 <SpeedEvil> PM only
Oct 08 16:45:33 <kristian-m> abraxa_ well it's a struct can't you just read out the values?
Oct 08 16:47:03 <kristian-m> abraxa_ ah i see, you can use g_object_get on the settings "object"
Oct 08 16:47:17 <gamin> SpeedEvil: found that, but my question is how much stand-by time is currently doable?
Oct 08 16:47:32 <gamin> my neo finally arrives this week...
Oct 08 16:47:36 <abraxa_> kristian-m: Hmm... I'll give it a shot
Oct 08 16:48:13 <gamin> am curious if I can use it already as phone
Oct 08 16:48:30 <abraxa_> kristian-m: What throws me off is that you can define setting parsers but it doesn't say anywhere how or where you can access the data parsed from the RC files
Oct 08 16:49:29 <gamin> but looking through the cvs check ins, development on the gta01 seems kind of stalled in favour of gta02?
Oct 08 16:51:11 <Henryk> even gta01 code is improving
Oct 08 16:51:59 <gamin> Henryk, do you use yours as your daily phone?
Oct 08 16:52:20 <Henryk> no
Oct 08 16:52:52 <Henryk> it actually belongs to the university and I might not have it with me always
Oct 08 16:53:23 <gamin> Henryk: sounds like you consider it kind of usable already?
Oct 08 16:53:36 <Henryk> no
Oct 08 16:54:32 <flaushy> Henryk: which university are u working for, if i may ask
Oct 08 16:54:45 <Henryk> It can do calls, receive calls (though that capability is somewhat non-deterministic yet, about 80% success rate, e.g. if it doesn't ask for pin after boot: reboot). but no phonebook/sms, as far as i can tell
Oct 08 16:54:53 <Henryk> flaushy: Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
Oct 08 16:55:02 <flaushy> ah cool
Oct 08 16:55:08 <flaushy> greetings from the TU-Dresden ;)
Oct 08 17:00:05 <kristian-m> Henryk ho have you managed to make them pay for it? - I heared universities in germany are not allowed to pay for mobile phones...
Oct 08 17:05:27 <Henryk> kristian-m: it's not the university directly,  but the chair. And I even think, because the chair was only established recently, that it might even have been berufungsmittel. But yes, apparently that quite a bit of telephoning to do, because payment had to be done by credit card, not in euros, and payment in advance
Oct 08 17:07:12 <Henryk> And accepting the shipment with paying customs charges to the UPS carrier in cash at the door apparently turned out to be completely impossible. E.g. UPS did 3 delivery attempts that were aborted with "Recipient had no funds available" and I then had to pick the package up, paying myself and then got refunded later on
Oct 08 17:07:18 <cjb_ie> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/business/media/08googlephone.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Oct 08 17:08:52 <kristian-m> Henryk i see, well we had to write special requests and i think they are not even affirmed yet - anyway strange system.
Oct 08 17:10:33 <CM> cjb_ie: Interesting, but not much facts in that article
Oct 08 17:10:50 <CM> I really wonder what they are working on
Oct 08 17:10:56 <Henryk> kristian-m: yes, my boss baught it on his own credit card and then had to do two round-trips to get the refund going but I think it worked out in the end.
Oct 08 17:12:05 <Henryk> kristian-m: I tripped the whole process off on the day that the sale was opened and then my boss and his boss (who is the chair holder) did this telephoning to get the project approved at all. I guess it helped that the Professor was behind it
Oct 08 17:12:26 <ScaredyCat> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/08/asus-p5e3-deluxe-mobo-boots-in-five-seconds-with-embedded-linux/
Oct 08 17:13:25 <CM> ScaredyCat: Hehe.. "allowing you to update your Facebook profile almost instantly"
Oct 08 17:13:36 <ScaredyCat> *cough*
Oct 08 17:13:45 <Vegar> sounds pretty useless
Oct 08 17:14:24 <cb22> CM, and all you read was facebook ^-^
Oct 08 17:14:41 <ScaredyCat> CM: is probably 12
Oct 08 17:15:02 <cb22> ah, that explains the teen hour :p
Oct 08 17:15:14 <ScaredyCat> heheh
Oct 08 17:15:14 <CM> :P
Oct 08 17:15:17 <kristian-m> Henryk jap, when profs really want to do something they can find a way. you're lucky with your bosses then :-) (actually me too)
Oct 08 17:16:31 <torpor> yo dogs
Oct 08 17:16:34 <torpor> sup
Oct 08 17:17:10 <comicinker> hi people! I want to install linux on my htc magician. If I use haret and flash it, will I destroy the bootloader? can Restore the windows after applying haret?
Oct 08 17:19:01 <abraxa_> comicinker: No offense but I'm really not sure if this is the right place to ask this ;)
Oct 08 17:19:43 <Henryk> except of course you want to try and port openmoko to it
Oct 08 17:24:01 <comicinker> of corse I wil try!
Oct 08 17:24:43 <torpor> comicinker: once you get a bootable kernel its all easy from there .. 
Oct 08 17:24:56 <viq> Did anyone ever try swapping the left and right channels of speakers in linux?
Oct 08 17:25:56 <comicinker> yeah, but I think after it: may I have to go back to windows. can I restore it?
Oct 08 17:29:46 <comicinker> torpor: you don't have a idea, do you?
Oct 08 17:29:56 <Tronic_> viq: Kinda.
Oct 08 17:30:00 <Tronic_> viq: Why?
Oct 08 17:30:39 <viq> Tronic_: because the speakers I just got make two wrong assumptions: 1) this length of cables should be enough for anyone 2) the computer stands on the right.
Oct 08 17:30:57 <torpor> comicinker: about what?
Oct 08 17:31:43 <comicinker> if I can restore windows after flashing the pocketpc with openmoko
Oct 08 17:31:55 <torpor> okay no i'm not sure.
Oct 08 17:31:57 <torpor> i don't do windows
Oct 08 17:32:05 <Tronic_> viq: Something like this in asound.conf: http://rafb.net/p/x992tS41.txt
Oct 08 17:32:51 <viq> that ttable thing in there?
Oct 08 17:34:06 <Tronic_> Yes, it defines which channel goes where and how loud.
Oct 08 17:34:12 <viq> ok, thanks
Oct 08 17:34:37 <viq> ...and now I'd better make sure the sound card I intend to get is supported too
Oct 08 17:34:51 <Tronic_> Just don't buy anything Creative and you'll be fine.
Oct 08 17:35:26 <viq> eh, I was thinking about SB Audigy SE
Oct 08 17:41:14 <gavin8or> What exactly does this mean?
Oct 08 17:41:17 <gavin8or> EVENT: Netreg searching for network 
Oct 08 17:41:17 <gavin8or> EVENT: Netreg registration denied
Oct 08 17:41:32 <gavin8or> that's in the libgsm-tool shell
Oct 08 17:43:24 <Henryk> gavin8or: the network doesn't like you and/or you put in the wrong pin, i would think
Oct 08 17:45:00 <gavin8or> Yes I would think
Oct 08 17:45:13 <gavin8or> The same sim card works in all my other phones I have laying around
Oct 08 17:45:23 <gavin8or> And I don't think it needs a PIN
Oct 08 17:46:55 <Henryk> oh, and then there i heard some talks about some sims not working, but that again is a point where someone else should chime in
Oct 08 17:49:12 <CM> gavin8or: check http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666
Oct 08 17:49:19 <CM> If it's a 3G sim that is
Oct 08 17:49:50 <XorA> DONG DONG
Oct 08 17:50:29 <Henryk> bug 666 :)
Oct 08 17:50:42 <CM> Easy to remember ;)
Oct 08 17:50:58 <Vegar> an appropriate bug number
Oct 08 17:56:54 <gavin8or> hrm maybe it is G3
Oct 08 17:57:06 <gavin8or> I was pretty sure it wasn't cause there wasn't a G3 logo anywhere
Oct 08 17:57:32 <gavin8or> But there really isn't any logo at all... it's just a brand spanking new Dobson (Cellular One) SIM
Oct 08 17:57:42 <gavin8or> Can anyone confirm what these green things are?
Oct 08 17:58:02 <CM> Trees? Grass?
Oct 08 17:58:25 * CM just guesses wildly
Oct 08 17:59:22 <ScaredyCat> bogey!
Oct 08 17:59:34 * ScaredyCat points at CM
Oct 08 18:00:05 <bedboi> hi there
Oct 08 18:00:37 <bedboi> any good news?
Oct 08 18:01:55 <Henryk> ok, leaving for food
Oct 08 18:02:55 <gavin8or> No one here uses CellularOne Prepaid?
Oct 08 18:03:02 <gavin8or> Probably for good reason eh :(
Oct 08 18:03:14 <CM> Yes, most of us seem to be in Europe
Oct 08 18:03:18 <CM> ;)
Oct 08 18:03:38 <CM> I haven't head anyone from US mentioning CelularOne either though
Oct 08 18:05:49 <gavin8or> Don't wink at me! lol 
Oct 08 18:05:58 <gavin8or> It's not my fault cell coverage sucks here
Oct 08 18:06:07 <torpor> gah!
Oct 08 18:06:14 <torpor> why is webkit borked?!!?!
Oct 08 18:06:42 <mwester> That's its normal state of being.
Oct 08 18:06:47 <CM> torpor: bitbake -c rebuild qmake2-native icu; bitbake -c rebuild webkit-gtk
Oct 08 18:07:09 <CM> mwester: Hehe.. Sad but true ;)
Oct 08 18:07:09 <torpor> CM: thanks.
Oct 08 18:07:26 <torpor> doing that now lets see how it goes .. 
Oct 08 18:07:28 <CM> torpor: That just worked for me, zecke gave me that tip
Oct 08 18:07:33 <torpor> right on
Oct 08 18:07:36 <torpor> gonna do it now
Oct 08 18:07:50 <CM> My error before was http://rafb.net/p/RWkOeR55.html
Oct 08 18:08:15 <CM> torpor: Be in build and source ../setup-env, but I guess you know that by now.. :)
Oct 08 18:08:51 <torpor> CM: mine was the same error
Oct 08 18:08:56 <torpor> and yeah thanks for the tip i knew
Oct 08 20:02:21 <viq> Writchie: that BT problem you talked about (can't answer phone with BT headset) - is it a hardware issue, or is it possible there will be software fix for it?
Oct 08 20:03:20 <Writchie> viq: its a hardware problem on GT02 - the hardware lines required have be re-used for the WiFi
Oct 08 20:03:31 <viq> ok, thank you
Oct 08 20:03:48 <SpeedEvil> It's not that.
Oct 08 20:03:49 <Writchie> viq: there is still a small possibility of a workaround through the USB wakeup
Oct 08 20:03:57 <Writchie> not what?
Oct 08 20:04:00 <SpeedEvil> It's can't wake on pressing the hold button on a bluetooth headset
Oct 08 20:04:09 <SpeedEvil> or on pressing a key on a bluetooth keyb
Oct 08 20:04:37 <SpeedEvil> it can wake on calls and then answer on the headset
Oct 08 20:04:42 <Writchie> viq: my bad: the function that will not work is waking up the neo from the headset
Oct 08 20:04:54 <SpeedEvil> As the device is awake at that time - due to being woken by the modem
Oct 08 20:04:56 <viq> So... What won't I be able to do?
Oct 08 20:05:11 <Writchie> original a call by pressing BT headset button
Oct 08 20:05:19 <SpeedEvil> from the phone asleep press a bluetooth keyboard or mouse to wake them up
Oct 08 20:05:20 <Writchie> or any similar function 
Oct 08 20:05:22 <SpeedEvil> it up
Oct 08 20:05:32 <viq> ah, ok.
Oct 08 20:06:02 <Vegar> right
Oct 08 20:06:16 <Vegar> not such a serious issue then?
Oct 08 20:06:31 <mjr> not for most users, I think
Oct 08 20:06:39 <SpeedEvil> It's an annoying, rather than a show-stopper for most users.
Oct 08 20:06:39 <mjr> for some, an inconvenience, certainly
Oct 08 20:06:45 <Writchie> well it's pretty serious for BT users this that's how we make calls
Oct 08 20:06:55 <SpeedEvil> For some it's a real inconvenience.
Oct 08 20:07:13 <SpeedEvil> For example, if the phone is in a zipped pocket, and you're on a bike.
Oct 08 20:07:32 <Vegar> couldn't you just "touch" the pocket to wake it up?
Oct 08 20:07:49 <SpeedEvil> In theory - but then it'll wakeup on any other random touch.
Oct 08 20:07:54 <SpeedEvil> And waste battery.
Oct 08 20:08:14 <Writchie> this is a day one BT use case
Oct 08 20:08:16 <orospakr> harsh, there's no wake on bluetooth?
Oct 08 20:08:21 <SpeedEvil> Nope.
Oct 08 20:08:27 <orospakr> dang.
Oct 08 20:08:33 <SpeedEvil> Not without horribly intricate workarounds.
Oct 08 20:08:41 <Vegar> I thought bluetooth was connected through USB
Oct 08 20:08:42 <SpeedEvil> That have to be implemented
Oct 08 20:08:45 <SpeedEvil> It is.
Oct 08 20:08:50 <orospakr> that's almost as bad as the "GSM doesn't work at all" problem. :P
Oct 08 20:08:55 <SpeedEvil> But the chipset also supports seperate 'wake' lines.
Oct 08 20:09:08 <SpeedEvil> Whihc are not brought out to the mainboard
Oct 08 20:11:16 * mwester begins to pack soldering irons, magnifying glasses, and little bits of wire into boxes, and prints labels reading "GTA02  Essential Hardware Hacking Kit"
Oct 08 20:11:40 <SpeedEvil> That bit is annoyingly hard to hack.
Oct 08 20:11:54 <SpeedEvil> The bluetooth module is solderred to the board.
Oct 08 20:12:08 <mwester> hence the soldering iron in the kit :P :D
Oct 08 20:12:21 <SpeedEvil> And it's also under the LCD module
Oct 08 20:12:25 <SpeedEvil> which is glued to the board.
Oct 08 20:12:33 <Writchie> and soldered to FPC IIRC
Oct 08 20:12:35 <viq> hence the magnifying glass ;)
Oct 08 20:12:44 <SpeedEvil> Not that easy.
Oct 08 20:12:50 * mwester opens the boxes, adds a replacement LCD and a hot-glue-gun, and doubles the price...
Oct 08 20:12:55 <SpeedEvil> You have to pry the LCD off the board, and pray you don't break it.
Oct 08 20:13:43 <Jumb0> hello people
Oct 08 20:13:45 <SpeedEvil> Then desolder the BT thingy
Oct 08 20:13:47 <mwester> You know, you'd think they'd just reallocate the GPIO pin from something less useful... like... Oh - how about the GPS???
Oct 08 20:14:17 <viq> pray the LCD off the board ;)
Oct 08 20:14:24 <mwester> (Whats the smiley for sarcasm?)
Oct 08 20:14:27 <SpeedEvil> I think it could actually be wire-OR'd with the modem ring signal
Oct 08 20:14:40 <SpeedEvil> but I haven't really looked closely at it
Oct 08 20:14:43 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  that's just too smart.
Oct 08 20:15:05 <Jumb0> I'm considering buying this to do some development and tailor the phone to my business. Would you recommend this?
Oct 08 20:15:08 <mwester> Sheesh, we've only been dealing with shared interrupts since the dawn of the 8086 :)
Oct 08 20:15:25 <SpeedEvil> Jumb0: what buisness?
Oct 08 20:15:38 <Jumb0> it's an ebusiness. TapeOnline.com
Oct 08 20:15:47 <viq> mwester: only 6000 more years to go ;)
Oct 08 20:15:50 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: I'd like to develop some CRM integrations
Oct 08 20:15:57 <SpeedEvil> Jumb0: at the moment - the basic phone functions don't work very well.
Oct 08 20:16:02 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: Possible SugarCRM integration
Oct 08 20:16:18 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: meaning phone calls don't work?
Oct 08 20:16:27 <SpeedEvil> However, it's a perfectly functional GTK desktop - with about the same performance as a 100Mhz pentium.
Oct 08 20:16:45 <SpeedEvil> Phone calls apparently work on recent builds - a week or so.
Oct 08 20:16:59 <SpeedEvil> There are still major issues with the rest of the system.
Oct 08 20:17:15 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: how long does it take to rebuild and install the os?
Oct 08 20:17:33 <SpeedEvil> The build process takes 12+ hours on most machine.
Oct 08 20:17:44 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: Whaaaa?
Oct 08 20:17:47 <Jumb0> 12 hours
Oct 08 20:17:52 <Jumb0> omg
Oct 08 20:17:52 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Oct 08 20:18:10 <Jumb0> why so long?
Oct 08 20:18:24 <russellb> because it's a crapton of stuff?
Oct 08 20:18:40 <emdete> Jumb0: because your machine is so slow? :D
Oct 08 20:18:45 <Writchie> kitchen sink and then some
Oct 08 20:18:50 <mwester> Jumb0:  you're building an entire distro, not just a kernel or a single application.
Oct 08 20:19:12 <Writchie> i wouldn't call an x2 5000+ exactly slow
Oct 08 20:19:14 <Jumb0> yea but it's a distro for a mobile device... how big could it be?
Oct 08 20:19:29 <Writchie> it builds the universe first
Oct 08 20:19:30 <emdete> Writchie: not? lets talk about that in about 5 years or so
Oct 08 20:19:32 <mwester> Jumb0:  So it starts by building native versions of key tools, building the cross compilers and related tools, then starting on libc and basic things like that, and working up from there.
Oct 08 20:20:00 <Jumb0> geez...
Oct 08 20:20:07 <mwester> Jumb0:  6 hours on a dual-core 2.4GHz system.
Oct 08 20:20:45 <Jumb0> mwester: what IDE is everyone using?
Oct 08 20:20:56 <mwester> Jumb0:  I expect that in some weeks or a few months at most, the core components will stabilize, and an SDK will be available.  Then you'll be able to just build your app.
Oct 08 20:21:03 <mwester> Jumb0:  IDE == vi
Oct 08 20:21:09 <Jumb0> lol
Oct 08 20:21:16 <Jumb0> oh noez
Oct 08 20:21:29 <emdete> Jumb0: you can probably use emacs too...
Oct 08 20:21:42 <russellb> vim <3
Oct 08 20:21:43 <Writchie> or even sed if you want
Oct 08 20:21:48 <Jumb0> and you're using a c compiler?
Oct 08 20:21:59 <mwester> cat if you're lucky.  and yes, it's C
Oct 08 20:22:24 <viq> nah, write assembler by hand ;P
Oct 08 20:22:46 <mwester> I've done that, and don't wish to do it any more!
Oct 08 20:23:05 <Writchie> those were the days
Oct 08 20:23:06 <viq> hehe
Oct 08 20:23:10 <Writchie> 4K ram
Oct 08 20:23:11 <russellb> i can't wait to get one so i can help hack on it ...
Oct 08 20:23:24 <mwester> Jumb0:  There's someone that was/is working on a JVM for the device, if you like Java...
Oct 08 20:23:43 <Jumb0> mwester: i like java. i like c too.
Oct 08 20:23:44 <mwester> And no reason why C++ won't work, just that the core apps are all C
Oct 08 20:23:50 <Jumb0> but i hate 6 hour build times
Oct 08 20:24:08 <mwester> Me too.  Especially when SOMEONE commits something that breaks the buld.
Oct 08 20:24:15 <mwester> Which happens fairly often.
Oct 08 20:24:25 <Jumb0> are you all using the same svn repo?
Oct 08 20:25:06 <mwester> It's a mix.  The build environment is OpenEmbedded, which uses Monotone, but it pulls code from svn repos.
Oct 08 20:25:35 <mwester> Very few people on this channel actually have commit access.  We submit code via bug reports mainly.
Oct 08 20:26:23 <Jumb0> can i get access to the source without buying the dev kit?
Oct 08 20:26:35 <guaqua> the source is in the repo
Oct 08 20:26:46 <Jumb0> link me to the repo plz
Oct 08 20:27:04 <guaqua> wiki.openmoko.org gets you started
Oct 08 20:27:16 <Jumb0> ty
Oct 08 20:54:42 <ag0ny> good evening everyone
Oct 08 20:59:12 <woglinde> hi agony
Oct 08 21:00:35 <ag0ny> woglinde: i remember your nick from somewhere...have you been in openembedded channel some time ago (like 2 years)?
Oct 08 21:08:03 <woglinde> agony I am stil on
Oct 08 21:08:43 <ag0ny> woglinde: ah, ok :) /whois did not show that :)
Oct 08 21:08:57 <woglinde> hm
Oct 08 21:22:22 <kaje> I can't find it anywhere on the site, can someone tell me when the 1973 will be available to the general public?
Oct 08 21:22:44 <viq> kaje: check the topic
Oct 08 21:23:14 <kaje> GTA02 == General Public Release?
Oct 08 21:23:26 <viq> Yes, the consumer model
Oct 08 21:24:07 <kaje> I see... I know the phone is GSM only... what are the top US GSM companies? I use Verizon now and I believe they are only CDMA...?
Oct 08 21:30:27 <SpeedEvil> there is a list on the wiki
Oct 08 21:30:37 <SpeedEvil> [[Carriers]] ?
Oct 08 21:35:08 <ag0ny> good night everyone
Oct 08 21:54:07 <BryceLeo> torpor: you around?
Oct 08 21:56:40 <BryceLeo> dang guess, not. Oh well. Hello room
Oct 08 21:57:44 <SpeedEvil> 19:08 <torpor> and yeah thanks for the tip i knew
Oct 08 21:57:45 <SpeedEvil> 22:54 <BryceLeo> torpor: you around?
Oct 08 21:59:52 <BryceLeo> sup SpeedEvil
Oct 08 22:02:03 <gavin8or> Can anyone confirm for me that the GSM radio doesn't work on GSM850?
Oct 08 22:02:30 <gavin8or> I've been beating my head against this wall for several hours again this afternoon and it would be nice if someone would just put my out of my misery 
Oct 08 22:02:45 <SpeedEvil> Not much.
Oct 08 22:03:01 <SpeedEvil> gavin8or: I've heard several people asking that question in various forums.
Oct 08 22:03:05 <SpeedEvil> I've never heard a yes.
Oct 08 22:03:31 <ljp> it _should_ work with 850
Oct 08 22:03:39 <gavin8or> I know
Oct 08 22:03:53 <SpeedEvil> However - it was not put through FCC approval for the 850Mhz band.
Oct 08 22:04:00 <SpeedEvil> And some people have reported problems.
Oct 08 22:04:01 <gavin8or> -nods-
Oct 08 22:04:07 <gavin8or> affirmative 
Oct 08 22:04:25 <SpeedEvil> There is a trivial way for anyone with 850MHz service and a spectrum analyser.
Oct 08 22:04:27 <SpeedEvil> ...
Oct 08 22:05:14 <gavin8or> I have miles and miles of 850 only service... no spectrum analyzer 
Oct 08 22:05:28 <gavin8or> I could get one at the HAM meeting tomorrow night though
Oct 08 22:05:40 <gavin8or> SpeedEvil, what is the process 
Oct 08 22:05:45 <SpeedEvil> The analyser - or some other means of checking frequency - would fix it.
Oct 08 22:05:57 <SpeedEvil> Basically you're looking for a transmission on 850MHz
Oct 08 22:06:07 <SpeedEvil> comparing with another phone that works with the same SIM
Oct 08 22:06:22 <SpeedEvil> A spectrum analyser is _dramatic_ overkill
Oct 08 22:06:26 <gavin8or> Oh I already know that the tower only operates on that band
Oct 08 22:06:48 <SpeedEvil> I mean - is the phone A) trying to talk to the tower - and being rejected for some reason.
Oct 08 22:06:53 <SpeedEvil> or B) Not even trying.
Oct 08 22:06:58 <gavin8or> The other phones I hack work just fine on the 850
Oct 08 22:07:00 <SpeedEvil> If it's B), then it's the neos fault.
Oct 08 22:07:21 <SpeedEvil> For absolute certain - if it's A, it could be a standards problem - which'd be TIs problem
Oct 08 22:07:23 <gavin8or> ahh ok because I think it's A)
Oct 08 22:07:42 <SpeedEvil> B) would likely be it's been told not to.
Oct 08 22:08:16 <gavin8or> What if the AT+COPS command takes a long time?
Oct 08 22:08:20 <mwester> which would make sense, if the device failed to get FCC approval - a simple flag in the firmware would suffice to ensure that no laws were broken.
Oct 08 22:08:24 <gavin8or> Is that evidence of A)?
Oct 08 22:08:39 <SpeedEvil> Don't know.
Oct 08 22:08:56 <SpeedEvil> you have tried it manually?
Oct 08 22:09:10 <SpeedEvil> at+cops (after at+cfun=1) and then at+cops? after it returns?
Oct 08 22:09:13 <gavin8or> Probably 200 times in the past 6 weeks 
Oct 08 22:09:20 <SpeedEvil> :/
Oct 08 22:09:43 <joelbryan> Hello, is there a list of compatible hardware for openmoko?
Oct 08 22:09:52 <Writchie> There is not one postivie indication that GSM850 is enabled in NEO - all evidence points to the contrary
Oct 08 22:09:56 <gavin8or> Yes the SIM card works ok, I'm able to access it manually
Oct 08 22:09:59 <SpeedEvil> joelbryan: yes - about second para on teh mainpage on the wiki
Oct 08 22:10:02 <joelbryan> I have a Nokia 7710, and I like to install anything Linux in it.
Oct 08 22:10:10 <mwester> Of course, the Openmoko folks on this channel *could* pop in with an answer, and save the community enormous amounts of effort in guessing at the 800MHz issue, or testing things...
Oct 08 22:10:13 <SpeedEvil> joelbryan: it already has linux on it.
Oct 08 22:10:28 <SpeedEvil> err
Oct 08 22:10:32 <SpeedEvil> I was meaning the 770
Oct 08 22:10:34 <SpeedEvil> oops
Oct 08 22:10:38 <joelbryan> no, it's the model before Nokia 770
Oct 08 22:10:39 <Writchie> its been asked on the lists as well - again with only a silent reply
Oct 08 22:10:42 <mwester> LaF0rge knows, I'm certain.
Oct 08 22:10:56 <SpeedEvil> joelbryan: it's about the second para on the wiki - 'other hardware'
Oct 08 22:11:26 <mwester> At this point, I can't imagine why there wouldn't be an answer yes or no (or even we don't know yet), it's not like 1,000 people are going to try to return the Neo's...
Oct 08 22:11:30 <Writchie> its strange - because if its actually enabled then its illegal but it should work - if its disabled then its legal so whats the problem acknowleging it. 
Oct 08 22:12:08 <gavin8or> I think if the company was honest about the status of 850Mhz it would remove entirely my frusteration right now
Oct 08 22:12:35 <bkruse> russellb: :]
Oct 08 22:12:40 <bkruse> whats up guys?
Oct 08 22:12:44 <Writchie> the closest to any real information was a canadian user who could not originate but could terminate in a dual 850/1900 environment
Oct 08 22:12:47 <bkruse> its josh from mokowiki around?
Oct 08 22:12:55 <joelbryan> any distro out there that can replace symbian?
Oct 08 22:13:00 <mwester> Well, I'm moving forward on the presumption that the unit either wasn't tested, or failed testing on 850, therefore that band was disabled in the firmware.
Oct 08 22:13:12 <gavin8or> I don't mind learning that a feature doesn't work... wouldn't ruin my day really
Oct 08 22:13:18 <Writchie> mwester: that's my assumption as well 
Oct 08 22:13:27 <gavin8or> But struggling with this could ruin the rest of my week
Oct 08 22:13:32 <mwester> gavin8or:  it's not like it's the only feature that doesnt' or won't work,
Oct 08 22:13:47 <gavin8or> Yes other than this I've been really happy with the phone :)
Oct 08 22:13:48 <vallor> dang, now I've discharged both batteries that came with the kit -- I just need a USB power source charger thingy (like blackberries use) to charge these batteries, right?
Oct 08 22:13:50 <Writchie> and since a firmware upgrade is likely to be required for AT&T anyway it doesn't make a whole lot of diff
Oct 08 22:14:21 <Writchie> vallor: that will take at least overnight
Oct 08 22:14:23 <gavin8or> I wish I could get AT&T here
Oct 08 22:14:24 <SpeedEvil> Though it's not been confirmed that firmware upgrade is not a RTB issue.
Oct 08 22:14:28 <SpeedEvil> Which is anoying.
Oct 08 22:14:33 <russellb> bkruse: greetings sir
Oct 08 22:14:42 <SpeedEvil> vallor: no - you can charge in the neo.
Oct 08 22:14:45 <Writchie> you really need to use USB to linux box (or windows box running linux in vmware
Oct 08 22:15:08 <SpeedEvil> vallor: remove battery from neo for 5 min or so. Replace battery, plug into powered USB, and it'll charge at 40mA
Oct 08 22:15:08 <mwester> RTB?
Oct 08 22:15:14 <SpeedEvil> REturn to Base
Oct 08 22:15:20 <gavin8or> I'd hae to check the chart on the wall here... one sec
Oct 08 22:15:27 <SpeedEvil> Which will charge it in about a day and a half.
Oct 08 22:15:28 <vallor> SpeedEvil: but if the battery is totally drained, it can't tell the usb port that it is there, and to turn on the charge power -- I have a friend who explained this happening with his blackberry
Oct 08 22:15:34 <vallor> oh, okay
Oct 08 22:15:37 <vallor> I will try that :)
Oct 08 22:15:51 <SpeedEvil> vallor: once it's been on charge about half an hour, you can try booting it
Oct 08 22:16:00 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  Meaning that the firmware issue *can* be fixed in the field?
Oct 08 22:16:01 <SpeedEvil> (connected to a PC)
Oct 08 22:16:25 <SpeedEvil> mwester: can does not mean FIC are allowed to let users do that.
Oct 08 22:16:27 <vallor> by "powered usb" you mean just an ordinary usb port, that I'd been using to charge it before?
Oct 08 22:16:56 <SpeedEvil> vallor: it requires a USB port with an active host with drivers for the USB gadget drivers.
Oct 08 22:17:03 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  Yes, but it does mean that FIC may allow authorized others to do so...
Oct 08 22:17:08 <SpeedEvil> Or at least one that's willing to negotiate to allow it power.
Oct 08 22:17:10 <vallor> SpeedEvil: ah, no problem there :)
Oct 08 22:17:36 <gavin8or> one more stupid question and i'm going to give up on this
Oct 08 22:18:01 <gavin8or> AT+CFUN=1 might return with ERROR but it still puts the modem in phone mode, correct?
Oct 08 22:18:11 <SpeedEvil> gavin8or: I wouldn't think so
Oct 08 22:18:25 <Writchie> gavin8or: should not:
Oct 08 22:18:35 <gavin8or> the wiki seems to show that as normal behavior 
Oct 08 22:18:57 <Writchie> perhaps error if already in mode 1?
Oct 08 22:19:14 <SpeedEvil> It may be error if something has been sent to the modem already
Oct 08 22:19:23 <SpeedEvil> maybe bootup garbage
Oct 08 22:19:26 <gavin8or> hrm 
Oct 08 22:19:31 <SpeedEvil> I'd send CR first
Oct 08 22:19:57 <vallor> this is the second embedded linux device I'm played with -- the first is a meraki, which we are using to deploy wifi all through our geographic area "ubiquitously" :)
Oct 08 22:20:46 <BryceLeo> didn't meraki decide to F* over a whole bunch of their higher tier useers?
Oct 08 22:20:54 * BryceLeo checks engadget 
Oct 08 22:20:58 <vallor> : - o I hadn't heard that
Oct 08 22:21:24 <BryceLeo> http://gigaom.com/2007/10/07/meraki-price-hike/
Oct 08 22:22:52 <vallor> BryceLeo: :(
Oct 08 22:23:18 <vallor> I didn't know they'd done that :(
Oct 08 22:24:21 <BryceLeo> yeah... sorry to bring the bad news
Oct 08 22:24:35 <BryceLeo> if you contact them you might be able to get the lower rate for the gear
Oct 08 22:25:22 <BryceLeo> i didn't think it was too cool
Oct 08 22:25:44 <BryceLeo> but the project looks awesome tho
Oct 08 22:26:15 <vallor> BryceLeo: I've just posted a query to our dept-heads list
Oct 08 22:26:32 <vallor> BryceLeo: we are mention in the article
Oct 08 22:26:37 <vallor> (sonic.net)
Oct 08 22:27:49 <BryceLeo> ohhh i didn't know that was you!
Oct 08 22:28:31 <vallor> yeppers :)
Oct 08 22:29:21 <BryceLeo> sweet project dude
Oct 08 22:29:50 <vallor> yeppers, hopefully it will take off like wildfire
Oct 08 22:30:23 <BryceLeo> it seems like a damn nice idea
Oct 08 22:30:40 <BryceLeo> the only problem would be people torrenting off of the wifi and the dsl subscriber getting whacked with a subpoena
Oct 08 22:32:22 <vallor> well, that would be difficult, since they are behind a router (without port forwarding)
Oct 08 22:32:52 <vallor> also there's some tunnelling involved, where for some operations, they appear to be coming from Meraki's network
Oct 08 22:33:48 <SpeedEvil> BryceLeo: and the general problem of free stuff getting overused.
Oct 08 22:34:02 <BryceLeo> still seems risky, i'd have to sit down at it to see how the setup would have to go
Oct 08 22:34:03 <SpeedEvil> Without some price, some users will use as much as they can.
Oct 08 22:34:07 <vallor> "the tragedy of the dipwits" ;P
Oct 08 22:34:12 <BryceLeo> SpeedEvil:  how true
Oct 08 22:34:19 <BryceLeo> lol vallor good also true
Oct 08 22:36:46 <mwester> Just to be the devil's advocate: even at $150 a unit, the service costs to install it and the costs to manage it far exceed the hardware cost.
Oct 08 22:37:13 <SpeedEvil> Not in some cases,
Oct 08 22:37:20 <SpeedEvil> Donated labour.
Oct 08 22:37:38 <mwester> Also, some larger players may welcome the price increase, the capital costs for that bit of hardware are small, relatively speaking (probably less than rent in SF!), and it raises the barrier to entry for small startup competitors...
Oct 08 22:38:06 <SpeedEvil> fon.net
Oct 08 22:38:07 <BryceLeo> that's fair enough, but still 150 isn't terribly unreasonable if the ad revenues are right
Oct 08 22:38:25 <mwester> Donated labor is unlikely for the tier that gets socked with the $150 -- that's more likely in the $50 space. 
Oct 08 22:39:08 <SpeedEvil> .com even
Oct 08 22:39:54 <BryceLeo> lol
Oct 08 22:39:59 <BryceLeo> SpeedEvil:  fon looks pretty cool
Oct 08 22:40:20 <vallor> I think the Meraki ad-based portal stuff is only for the $50 version -- everybody else can be branded, iirc
Oct 08 22:40:46 <SpeedEvil> It's a damn shame that this wasn't worked out when 802.11 was developed.
Oct 08 22:40:56 <SpeedEvil> Some central registry of VPN providers.
Oct 08 22:41:09 <SpeedEvil> A means of micropayment for traffic to those VPN providers.
Oct 08 22:41:17 <SpeedEvil> Job done.
Oct 08 22:41:23 <BryceLeo> that sounds nice
Oct 08 22:41:34 <SpeedEvil> And a box on every router setup saying 'how much do you want to charge'
Oct 08 22:41:38 <BryceLeo> shame that mimo isn't a standard or that wifi doesn't scale better too
Oct 08 22:41:44 <vallor> indeed -- btw, what is a fair price for offering VPN service, do you think?
Oct 08 22:41:55 <SpeedEvil> Whatever the market will bear.
Oct 08 22:42:17 <vallor> $9.95?
Oct 08 22:42:19 <SpeedEvil> If you are too expensive, your neighbour can setup a cheaper node, and get all teh buisness.
Oct 08 22:42:20 <vallor> $9.95/month
Oct 08 22:42:41 <vallor> no, I mean, for an ISP to let you tunnel in from anywhere to their vpn concentrator
Oct 08 22:42:44 <SpeedEvil> For what sort of VPN?
Oct 08 22:42:55 <SpeedEvil> what sort of bandwidth?
Oct 08 22:43:11 <vallor> as much as you want, I guess
Oct 08 22:43:42 <vallor> bandwidth doesn't really matter at that level, the vpn concentrator is on our backbone
Oct 08 22:44:03 <vallor> we have multiple Gig-e connections to transit providers, if that's what you're asking
Oct 08 22:44:07 <SpeedEvil> For me to consider paying 9.95, I'd want to have my own IP.
Oct 08 22:44:26 <vallor> hmm, you mean a static IP?
Oct 08 22:44:35 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Oct 08 22:44:40 <vallor> let me check, I think we already do that
Oct 08 22:45:02 <joelbryan> or you can just set up your own server, and had dyndns and like to map your ip.
Oct 08 22:45:11 <SpeedEvil> I mean a IP at the far end on the link, allowing whatever inbound and outbound traffic.
Oct 08 22:45:12 <buz> does the 9.95 include fighting with the riaa? if so, i might know some customers for you 
Oct 08 22:45:18 * SpeedEvil passes joelbryan a P.
Oct 08 22:45:31 <Jumb0> hey guys. the website says that there will be a production release of this product this month. is this true?
Oct 08 22:45:36 <joelbryan> yay, does that mean I passed!
Oct 08 22:45:44 <buz> see topic
Oct 08 22:45:47 <SpeedEvil> Which website Jumb0?
Oct 08 22:45:57 <SpeedEvil> The october date will not be hit.
Oct 08 22:46:04 <SpeedEvil> For customers anyway
Oct 08 22:46:18 <Jumb0> finding link. 1 sec
Oct 08 22:46:50 <SpeedEvil> December ot so.
Oct 08 22:47:00 <SpeedEvil> joelbryan: no - the P in VPN is for Private
Oct 08 22:47:01 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-advanced-00-develkit.html
Oct 08 22:47:08 <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
Oct 08 22:47:15 <SpeedEvil> They need to get this crap fixed.
Oct 08 22:47:35 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: I'm a developer. Is the water really warm?
Oct 08 22:47:44 <SpeedEvil> No, even though it's on the shop pages, it's unfortunately not going to be available.
Oct 08 22:47:55 <SpeedEvil> And even in December, it is unlikely to be end-user ready.
Oct 08 22:49:02 * vallor is checking
Oct 08 22:49:06 <Jumb0> SpeedEvil: so i can't order the dev kit?
Oct 08 22:49:15 <SpeedEvil> Not of GTA02
Oct 08 22:49:19 <SpeedEvil> you can order GTA01
Oct 08 22:49:41 <SpeedEvil> (no wifi, ...)
Oct 08 22:50:36 <Jumb0> when can i order it?
Oct 08 22:51:02 <SpeedEvil> That's not been revealed - for the next version.
Oct 08 22:51:17 <SpeedEvil> No preorder scheme or anything has been announced.
Oct 08 22:51:28 <Henryk> re
Oct 08 22:51:54 <BryceLeo> i'm not really expecting gta02 till feb or march
Oct 08 22:53:39 <Henryk> end user release, yes
Oct 08 22:54:58 <mwester> At the current development rate, end user release isn't likely either!  We can only hope they get the gta02 hardware done, and we can get one or two of the core team back on the software side.
Oct 08 22:55:16 <vallor> how much traffic were you talking about, SpeedEvil ?
Oct 08 22:55:49 <mwester> Failing that, we need some more folks who have access to some of the proprietary documentation on things like the hardware and the GSM modem.
Oct 08 22:56:54 <BryceLeo> and for gta02 we're gonna really be hurting if there's no one dedicated to the graphics accell drivers and functionality
Oct 08 22:57:25 <SpeedEvil> vallor: I dunno - I'd want at least a gig/month bare minimum.
Oct 08 22:57:37 <vallor> oh, okay
Oct 08 22:57:44 <SpeedEvil> vallor: if you were somewhere the RIAA couldn't sue, more :)
Oct 08 22:57:58 <vallor> we're in California
Oct 08 22:58:08 <vallor> and that sounds like it could be a bit scary, hehe
Oct 08 22:59:18 <SpeedEvil> Though I'd really want some service like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:Proxy on it too.
Oct 08 22:59:25 <SpeedEvil> (compressing differential web proxy)
Oct 08 22:59:39 <vallor> hmm
Oct 08 23:01:05 <vallor> well, we can do the static IP and the inbound connections -- as far as compression goes, it's basically whatever you can get out of the Cisco VPN client
Oct 08 23:01:29 <vallor> http://sonic.net/features/vpn/
Oct 08 23:02:04 <SpeedEvil> yeah - that's for ideal cases. In practice - at 9.99/mo, I'm not unlikely to go with a shell account which allows me to run stuff there, and use ssh as a proxy.
Oct 08 23:02:40 <SpeedEvil> using the ssh SOCKS client option
Oct 08 23:02:56 <Henryk> (for cisco vpn client replacement vpnc works reasonably well)
Oct 08 23:03:00 <vallor> yes, that's what I do to get at our resources behind our firewall
Oct 08 23:03:30 <vallor> with this quick little proxy manager that I use, I forget the name
Oct 08 23:04:50 <SpeedEvil> The web proxy thing is really needed for browsing over GPRS.
Oct 08 23:05:02 <SpeedEvil> Otherwise ebay et al is deeply unpleasant.
Oct 08 23:05:33 <BryceLeo> gprs is slooooooowwww
Oct 08 23:05:33 <vallor> oh definitely
Oct 08 23:05:37 <vallor> HMM!
Oct 08 23:05:54 * vallor lets the wheels turn in his head...
Oct 08 23:07:08 <vallor> a vpn service for openmoko users -- "I see a great need." :)
Oct 08 23:07:21 <vallor> could just do it as a special kind of shell account
Oct 08 23:07:59 <BryceLeo> lol someone sees dollar signs
Oct 08 23:08:09 <Henryk> for web browsing? there's already a company offering that: opera
Oct 08 23:08:11 <vallor> ;P
Oct 08 23:08:27 <vallor> BryceLeo: no, not dollarsigns -- nerd points ;P
Oct 08 23:08:34 <SpeedEvil> Henryk: a compressing proxy?
Oct 08 23:08:38 <BryceLeo> lol yay nerdpoints
Oct 08 23:09:04 <Henryk> SpeedEvil: yeah. their browser uses their own proxy system which strips down pages and compresses images and stuff
Oct 08 23:09:57 <SpeedEvil> Not quite what I was aiming at.
Oct 08 23:10:22 <SpeedEvil> I was more looking at compressing based on page changes and similar pages already in a hundred meg or so cache.
Oct 08 23:10:56 <BryceLeo> could always just provide public squid servers
Oct 08 23:11:04 <SpeedEvil> For example, there is lots of commonality between one ebay page and another. Even if they are auctions for different items.
Oct 08 23:11:35 <SpeedEvil> squid doesn't give 10* traffic reduction.
Oct 08 23:11:44 <SpeedEvil> (which some tests indicated)
Oct 08 23:11:58 <BryceLeo> there really needs to be a browser that lets you just cache css only 
Oct 08 23:12:05 <BryceLeo> that'd be a pretty decent reduction right htere
Oct 08 23:12:09 <Henryk> BryceLeo: yes, because open proxies are totally cool ;-)
Oct 08 23:12:14 <BryceLeo> squid is easy enough
Oct 08 23:12:42 <BryceLeo> lol twas that a jibe Henryk? (my internet sarcasm detector is broken)
Oct 08 23:14:07 <Henryk> BryceLeo: it was. Officially operating and promoting an open proxy will certainly make for good fun with lots of 'interesting' talks to the police and other interested parties
Oct 08 23:14:48 <SpeedEvil> Squid though - download ebay.com twice. It'll differ by some 200 bytes or so a load. Do things right on a differential proxy compressor, and you can reload it in 100 bytes or so. Even the best compression will only take you to 15K.
Oct 08 23:15:22 <vallor> (ahem) -- in the words of djb:  "Profile, don't speculate."
Oct 08 23:15:29 <SpeedEvil> I have done.
Oct 08 23:15:41 <BryceLeo> Henryk: where do you live that that happens?
Oct 08 23:15:41 <SpeedEvil> Offline profiling though - I don't have working code
Oct 08 23:16:13 <vallor> Henryk: it wouldn't be open, there would be a customer relationship of some sort
Oct 08 23:16:34 <vallor> SpeedEvil: I was referring to Henryk's idea that it would be totally open
Oct 08 23:16:57 <Henryk> BryceLeo: i would expect that to happen in any western country, as soon as the first moron uses the proxy to do stupid things like child porn, spam, cracks and the like
Oct 08 23:17:41 <BryceLeo> well cracks are no problem but spam and child porn would be an issue
Oct 08 23:17:44 <vallor> Henryk: I'm not talking about an "open proxy"
Oct 08 23:18:04 <BryceLeo> Henryk:  still no reason you can't use squid at the core and just not have it open
Oct 08 23:18:35 <Henryk> vallor: ok, then it would be only a minor problem, as long as know exactly who to blame
Oct 08 23:18:46 <vallor> precisely
Oct 08 23:19:50 <vallor> we already have VPN service for our customers, which includes anyone coming in from our old wireless hot spot's (but I'm not sure what we're going to do with the meraki's)
Oct 08 23:20:07 <Jumb0> i don't understand how they can have ads all over their site and even a whole write-up on Economist.com (http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9531007) but have so few features. You can't even make a phone call yet?
Oct 08 23:20:21 <Henryk> (and yes, "cracks" as in "people breaking into other people's systems" would be a problem, even if not a legal one. There are a lot of morons out there that, when their IDS, firewall or even ZoneAlarm shows an IP address that sends them, like, pings, will somehow track down a phone number and yell at you. Of course that's even worse when real criminal activities take place)
Oct 08 23:21:59 <gmaxwell> My openmono arrived today. I can make calls from it! WHOOOPIE!!!
Oct 08 23:22:04 <BryceLeo> Henryk:  ahh you mean cracking.  Sure it could be a problem, but really, it happens everywhere. Not providing a service doens't stop it
Oct 08 23:23:40 <Henryk> BryceLeo: well okay, maybe that's just a phobia of mine, but I've always been trying really hard to avoid letting other people send things from my addresses
Oct 08 23:24:07 <BryceLeo> Henryk: i can see what you mean, but i usally run services with trusted clients only, 
Oct 08 23:24:27 <BryceLeo> like you register your mac with me and i verify you're a user and you get access
Oct 08 23:25:33 <Jumb0> gmaxwell: did you get the model with wifi?
Oct 08 23:25:43 <Henryk> Jumb0: no wifi models yet
Oct 08 23:25:57 <Jumb0> lies
Oct 08 23:26:02 <Henryk> or, actually, I've seen two or three today :)
Oct 08 23:26:07 <Jumb0> what's with all the false advertisement for this product?
Oct 08 23:26:18 <gmaxwell> Jumb0, No there is no wifi device shipping yet.
Oct 08 23:26:31 <Henryk> there is no false advertisement, because there is no advertisement yet
Oct 08 23:26:32 <gmaxwell> Jumb0, False advertisement? the webpages are clear that the version with wifi is not yet available.
Oct 08 23:26:34 <SpeedEvil> Jumb0: confused advertising. And inadequately updated websites.
Oct 08 23:26:49 <gmaxwell> Or at least I was never confused.
Oct 08 23:27:07 <Jumb0> This is going to be such a great product...
Oct 08 23:27:14 <Jumb0> just can't stand waiting
Oct 08 23:27:30 <gmaxwell> Anyone have any pointers to debugging for the dialer?  it doesn't correctly detect that I'm registered for some reason. :)
Oct 08 23:27:37 <Jumb0> i hate to spend 450 for the dev kit and it not be the newest but i guess that's how it goes
Oct 08 23:27:46 <gmaxwell> GSM calls work fine manually for me but the dialer has only worked a couple of times.
Oct 08 23:27:56 <Henryk> FIC doesn't ship any end user version yet, has not already fully planned shipping end user versions and therefore doesn't advertise any end user version yet. whatever you might have heard in false advertisment is between you and whoever told you that
Oct 08 23:28:14 <Henryk> (though of course I'll agree there's a certain amount of hype. and not without good cause)
Oct 08 23:28:25 <Jumb0> Henryk: how about this? http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9531007
Oct 08 23:28:36 <gmaxwell> Jumb0, it is really cool but it is not ready for you if you don't want to do development. 
Oct 08 23:28:38 <Jumb0> Henryk: they're a pretty credible source
Oct 08 23:28:43 * vallor would love this thing to have wifi -- talk about "enabling applications"! :) :)
Oct 08 23:28:50 <Henryk> Jumb0: that's an article, written by a journalist
Oct 08 23:29:36 <BryceLeo> Jumb0: why would you buy a dev kit if you're not a developer
Oct 08 23:29:41 <Jumb0> omg
Oct 08 23:29:47 * Jumb0 is a developer.
Oct 08 23:30:04 * Jumb0 doesn't want to spend $450 for a kit that doesn't have wifi
Oct 08 23:30:12 <Henryk> so then: don't
Oct 08 23:30:46 <Henryk> (except of course if you're also a hardware hacker and want to mod it :)
Oct 08 23:30:49 <gmaxwell> So, no advice on dialer debugging?
Oct 08 23:31:16 <Henryk> gmaxwell: the dialer shouldn't be the problem. does the tray icon show a connection?
Oct 08 23:31:38 <Henryk> gmaxwell: how new is your image? I think there was an update regarding a similar problem two weeks ago or something like that
Oct 08 23:32:16 <gmaxwell> Henryk, I'm running OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071007-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 ....    Two issues there: icon tray only shows up one in every 2-3 reboots,  and I think it's showing no connection.
Oct 08 23:32:25 <gmaxwell> Little antenna icon has a ?
Oct 08 23:32:28 <gmaxwell> next to it.
Oct 08 23:32:45 <gmaxwell> However, if I stop gsmd and hit the modem with some AT commands I can make and recieve calls fine.
Oct 08 23:32:56 <Henryk> right, that's no connection. a connection would be indicated by two arrows and a number of bars indicating signal strength
Oct 08 23:33:44 <gmaxwell> Also interesting: For grins I booted the qtopia image..  and it's signal indicator stuff worked great.. but I couldn't call.. I'm presuming because it wasn't correctly throbbing the mixer or something because I never got a peep out of it.
Oct 08 23:33:48 <mwester> gmaxwell:  There have been many fixes (and new bugs introduced as well) since that snapshot.
Oct 08 23:34:05 <gmaxwell> mwester, Is there a build of a newer snapshot available? :)
Oct 08 23:34:09 <BryceLeo> yeah, new bugs is getting even more and more common with the builds
Oct 08 23:34:14 <Henryk> gmaxwell: you need to restart the dialer (and best event the tray) after stopping and restarting gsmd, e.g. /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart.  How is it going if you don't kill gsmd but use libgsmd-tool?
Oct 08 23:34:36 <mwester> I have none that I trust right this moment.
Oct 08 23:34:42 <gmaxwell> I wasn't aware of libgsmd-tool. Give me a moment. :)
Oct 08 23:34:50 <Henryk> oh, and yes, the tray not coming up once every 2 or 3 times is a current problem, yeah
Oct 08 23:35:48 <mwester> The tray problem seems to be in the battery code, so if you remove the battery option from the command line in /etc/matchbox/session, it's better behaved.
Oct 08 23:36:02 <Henryk> gmaxwell: ah, ok :)  libgsmd-tool would actually be the preferred way to test gsmd without having to rely on the dialer etc.  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd#libgsmd-tool
Oct 08 23:36:07 <gmaxwell> I fear no bugs.. I just don't know where to get started diagnosing them. ;) hmm.. so I restarted X.
Oct 08 23:36:38 <Henryk> (and libgsmd-tool also has an AT passthrough mode)
Oct 08 23:36:52 <gmaxwell> it claimed to not find gsmd and be starting it ... (which was odd because I hadn't stopped it)
Oct 08 23:36:54 <gmaxwell> ** (openmoko-dialer:1250): WARNING **: libgsmd: can't connect to gsmd. You won't receive any events.
Oct 08 23:37:08 <gmaxwell> .. and a nice popup gsmd connection error window.
Oct 08 23:37:09 <Henryk> gmaxwell: hmm, maybe it crashed?
Oct 08 23:37:12 <gmaxwell> but it's running.
Oct 08 23:37:19 <mwester> Yep, old bug.
Oct 08 23:38:17 <mwester> You can try just "ipkg upgrade libgsmd" to get the latest gsmd stuff - that would go a long way to getting you working with the current bugs, anyway.
Oct 08 23:38:33 <Henryk> oh, I should sleep now. OEDEM2007 is continuing in 8hours20minutes (and it takes me about 1.5hours to prepare and get there)
Oct 08 23:39:40 <gmaxwell> hm does the dial command w/ libgsmd need the trailing ; for voice calls?
Oct 08 23:40:01 <Henryk> probably not
Oct 08 23:40:33 <Henryk> oh, and to reset the mixer settings to gsm handset: alsactl -f /etc/gsmhandset.state restore
Oct 08 23:40:50 <gmaxwell> Yep. I'm all skilled with the mixer controls now. ;)
Oct 08 23:41:14 <Henryk> ok, g'night then, bye
Oct 08 23:41:20 <gmaxwell> Thanks for your help.
Oct 08 23:41:24 <BryceLeo> night
Oct 08 23:52:06 <gmaxwell> I was pretty much already up to date. I guess Henryk / mwester  didn't notice the "20071007" in my image name.
Oct 08 23:53:37 <Mek> I guess they got confues by the "September" part of the image name...
Oct 08 23:55:18 <cesarb> Mek: today is September 38, isn't it? ;-)
Oct 08 23:55:28 <don-o> lol
Oct 08 23:55:41 <don-o> is there a "what works on the neo" page?
Oct 08 23:56:08 <gmaxwell> the splash page claims "august snapshot build" ;)
Oct 08 23:56:25 <BryceLeo> wait waht... it's not sept 38th?
Oct 08 23:57:01 <cesarb> don-o: there's that testing reports page on the wiki, isn't there?
Oct 08 23:59:20 <don-o> cesarb: yeah i think this is it: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Phase_1_Software_Testing
Oct 09 00:00:22 <cesarb> don-o: yes, that one
Oct 09 00:08:21 <vallor> hey, is there a skype client for openmoko, or a jvm so I can try that eqo stuff?
Oct 09 00:08:41 <mjr> no, no
Oct 09 00:08:46 <gmaxwell> feh.. my luck has run out.. libgsmd-tool at command mode didn't work. So I tried going back to using callout...  that was unresponsive so I tried doing a echo 1 > /sys/devices/platform/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on and that hard locked the phone
Oct 09 00:09:11 <mjr> (some have poked at j2me a bit, dunno what's the status on that)
Oct 09 00:09:34 <vallor> hmm
Oct 09 00:09:56 <gmaxwell> there is a sip client in the qtopia image I thought.
Oct 09 00:09:58 <vallor> if this thing turned into a skype platform -- wow, carriers would hate us ;P
Oct 09 00:10:03 <mjr> (also, skype is evil, and some work is being done on the sip side)
Oct 09 00:10:09 <vallor> oh, k
Oct 09 00:10:15 <gmaxwell> vallor, nah, they'd just make deals with skype to screw us equally. ;)
Oct 09 00:10:23 <vallor> ugh
Oct 09 00:10:32 <gmaxwell> Skype = propritary.
Oct 09 00:10:39 <vallor> that's true
Oct 09 00:10:55 <BryceLeo> there's always gizmo
Oct 09 00:10:59 <vallor> sip would be better
Oct 09 00:11:05 <vallor> what's a gizmo?
Oct 09 00:11:07 <BryceLeo> gizmo is sip compatiable
Oct 09 00:11:19 <BryceLeo> http://www.gizmoproject.com/
Oct 09 00:11:28 <gmaxwell> Skype does a lot of stuff well that many sip softphones don't...
Oct 09 00:11:35 <gmaxwell> for example, it gets through NAT without trouble.
Oct 09 00:11:51 <gmaxwell> Also skype has wideband support. 
Oct 09 00:12:14 <mjr> the moko sip stack will have to deal with nats, yes *shrug*
Oct 09 00:12:29 <mjr> everything has wideband support. Well, dunno about asterisk.
Oct 09 00:12:29 <ljp> there is voip on qtopia, but I havent tested it yet
Oct 09 00:12:41 <cesarb> is anyone else having a "undefined reference to `webkit_init'" error in webkit-gtk, or is it just me?
Oct 09 00:12:54 <gmaxwell> mjr, asterisk doesn't. .. and lots of softphones don't either.  With skype it 'just works'.
Oct 09 00:13:13 <SpeedEvil> Unless the network admin has banned it - for good reason.
Oct 09 00:13:22 <gmaxwell> mjr, and yes the stack will have to deal with nat .. all sip implimentations do, but most of the time it doesn't work well. 
Oct 09 00:13:41 <mjr> doesn't really matter if it "just works", since skype isn't in the running
Oct 09 00:13:59 <vallor> k, sorry to have brought up skype
Oct 09 00:14:02 <gmaxwell> mjr, I'm not advocating skype. Feh. I'd be the last person to do that. :)
Oct 09 00:14:08 <SpeedEvil> The only peope that can do skype is skype.
Oct 09 00:14:24 <SpeedEvil> If you want skype on OM/Neo1973, go bug them.
Oct 09 00:14:47 <gmaxwell> SpeedEvil, and I hope they do not.. god knows I don't want people nagging me to install it on my damn cell phone like they do on my desktop.
Oct 09 00:15:01 <Robot101> telepathy supports SIP and XMPP, and does ICE/libjingle NAT traversal for gtalk calls on XMPP
Oct 09 00:15:12 <Robot101> and for SIP we'll add ICE support very soon using our libnice library
Oct 09 00:15:15 <SpeedEvil> Not to mention the annoying web-traffic
Oct 09 00:15:16 <gmaxwell> "Sorry, it's propritary, I have an asterisk server here.. use this sofphone" "But there is a linux version of skype!" "ugh"
Oct 09 00:15:21 <SpeedEvil> Not to mention the annoying http-traffic
Oct 09 00:15:41 <Robot101> so it'll be the best NAT traversal you can get... :)
Oct 09 00:15:55 <vallor> I've seen talk that these guys can do skype, too:  http://www.eqo.com/
Oct 09 00:15:59 <BryceLeo> ICE is better than stun?
Oct 09 00:16:03 <Robot101> BryceLeo: yes
Oct 09 00:16:14 <BryceLeo> hmm, i'll have to research it
Oct 09 00:16:16 <BryceLeo> thanks!
Oct 09 00:16:22 <BryceLeo> i've never heard of ice before
Oct 09 00:16:30 <Robot101> BryceLeo: actually it uses stun, but for each pair of possible addresses on your end and the other end, and tries them all
Oct 09 00:16:46 <BryceLeo> ohh ok, that makes sense
Oct 09 00:17:04 <Robot101> it sends the stun packets inline so it tests each possibility
Oct 09 00:19:19 <BryceLeo> ok cool, that's pretty sweet
Oct 09 00:22:50 <gmaxwell> vallor, if they can do skype it's because they've gotten the skype folks to make a client for their platform.
Oct 09 00:22:53 <mwester-laptop> gmaxwell: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=788
Oct 09 00:23:06 <mwester-laptop> (late reply to your earlier lockup on the neo...
Oct 09 00:23:09 <mwester-laptop> )
Oct 09 00:23:16 <vallor> gmaxwell: they talk about running their client under jvm 
Oct 09 00:23:19 <vallor> on treos
Oct 09 00:23:36 <vallor> at least, that's what a google brings up -- discussion about it on their forums
Oct 09 00:23:41 <vallor> so I've emailed them :)
Oct 09 00:24:40 <gmaxwell> mwester, Ah.  gsmd just doesn't seem to work at all for me.. if I stop it and reset the gsmmodem I can usually get callout up.. atcmd mode is just unresonsive for me.
Oct 09 00:24:57 <gmaxwell> I wonder if it's because my sim doesn't have a pin that something is getting confused?
Oct 09 00:25:23 <mwester-laptop> methinks its time to rewrite gsmd, or implement something completely different (a la qtopia?)
Oct 09 00:26:10 <SpeedEvil> Where might you find that info?
Oct 09 00:26:12 <SpeedEvil> oops
Oct 09 00:26:34 <gmaxwell> qtopia didn't seem easy to develop for.. which is why I didn't keep it beyond just taking a peek. 
Oct 09 00:27:03 <gmaxwell> but the gsm part of it certantly seemed fairly mature.
Oct 09 00:27:28 <Writchie> mwester: an alternative to gsmd/libgsm is in the works
Oct 09 00:27:45 <gmaxwell> what is the name of the media player?
Oct 09 00:27:51 <mwester-laptop> I agree, I also peeked -- I don't fancy developing in C++ myself.  But they can work with the GSM modem, development with openmoko has ceased it seems. :(
Oct 09 00:27:58 <mwester-laptop> Writchie: more info?
Oct 09 00:28:01 <gmaxwell> when I try running it it pops up an error I can't read, I wanted to invoke it from the cli
Oct 09 00:28:30 <Writchie> i've been working on a dbus based replacement with user space mux
Oct 09 00:28:47 <gmaxwell> mwester-laptop: I did some opie apps stuff on zaurus a while back.
Oct 09 00:30:05 <mwester-laptop> Writchie: let me know if I can help at all.  I don't know a lot about the gsm muxing, but at this point I'm pretty familiar with the gta01's serial driver and the switch problems.
Oct 09 00:30:54 <BryceLeo> well all i must be out, c ya!
Oct 09 00:31:26 <Writchie> mwester: i'll be able to use lots of help on various components after the basic framework for voice and data calls is in place
Oct 09 00:32:50 <gmaxwell> oh hot damn.. it has gdb on it.
Oct 09 00:33:39 <gmaxwell> oh without debugging symbols this is not so useful
Oct 09 00:42:52 <ljp> gmaxwell: how is qtopia not easy to develop for? 
Oct 09 01:03:59 <cesarb> ljp: some people dislike c++
Oct 09 01:04:14 * cesarb likes c++, but finds it quite verbose at times
Oct 09 01:04:26 <meshuga> how can i bind the aux button to launch a script? is there an easy way to do that?
Oct 09 01:13:12 <nbd> c++ is to c as lung cancer is to lung ;)
Oct 09 01:15:04 <|R> haha
Oct 09 01:15:21 <gmaxwell> ljp: I wouldn't state it as strongly as nbd, but in doing opie apps I found that I was spending my life passing around pointless (and verbosely named) abstractions and getting them all right was a pain.
Oct 09 01:15:29 <gmaxwell> I'm sure it's easy for people who are used to it. ;)
Oct 09 01:15:41 <gmaxwell> Then again I'd be just as happy coding with python and pygtk. ;)
Oct 09 01:15:57 <gmaxwell> slow as heck but development is easy. ;)
Oct 09 01:16:27 <Writchie> bad c++ is worse than bad c - good c++ can be very much better than bad c++ or even good c
Oct 09 01:16:34 <nbd> sometimes it's a good thing to have programs optimized for fun instead of performance
Oct 09 01:16:35 <Writchie> IMNSHO
Oct 09 01:17:49 <Writchie> c++ is incompatible with open source that is programmed first and never really designed
Oct 09 01:20:23 <gmaxwell> Writchie, any sufficently long lived application will eventually break its design criteria. ;)
Oct 09 01:21:17 <gmaxwell> the other complaint I had about the qtopia image... no terminal app that I could find. ;)
Oct 09 01:29:40 <cesarb> Writchie: some parts of C++ are not that incompatible; exceptions and RAII, for instance
Oct 09 01:30:36 <cesarb> Writchie: in fact, sometimes I code in C++ instead of C solely to use exceptions and RAII (and what I throw is something I usually call "unix_exception" containing an errno value)
Oct 09 01:30:48 <cesarb> Writchie: templates, on the other hand...
Oct 09 01:31:19 <cesarb> gmaxwell: I heard you can use a qtopia ssh client instead; my questions as to where I can find one went unanswered so far
Oct 09 01:33:05 <Writchie> cesarb: I agree - i've used exceptions a lot, especially on os2 which had one of first real good compilers. 
Oct 09 01:33:22 <Writchie> templates are a good concept but really unimplementable in practise
Oct 09 01:33:45 <Writchie> i think the overuse of templates has largely kept back c++ 
Oct 09 01:33:59 <Writchie> due to library issues mainly
Oct 09 01:35:12 <cesarb> Writchie: I think that's not the problem. I think that templates are used as a way of trying to add (in a very obscure manner) new features to the language. The result can be quite obscure
Oct 09 01:35:36 <cesarb> Writchie: things like lambda functions (yeah, there is a lambda library in boost...) are an abuse of the template system
Oct 09 01:35:58 <cesarb> Writchie: as are most template metaprogramming tricks (and in fact template metaprogramming itself)
Oct 09 01:36:32 <Writchie> i could easily live without templates at all
Oct 09 01:36:37 <cesarb> Writchie: the result ends up being like doing an object-oriented system in shell. It has been done (by someone in #debian ages ago), but you can imagine the result
Oct 09 01:36:38 <ljp> normal users would not know what to do with a terminal app
Oct 09 01:36:53 <ljp> and besides.. its a phone
Oct 09 01:36:54 <Writchie> although there are application domains where they are useful
Oct 09 01:36:56 <cesarb> Writchie: well, templates are useful for things like smart pointers and typed containers
Oct 09 01:37:10 <cesarb> Writchie: which is what templates were designed for, in fact -- no wonder it's a natural match
Oct 09 01:37:17 <Mek> it was fun once at a programing competition where they only had a runtime-limit, not a compile-time-limit, someone's program took hours to compile :)
Oct 09 01:37:22 <cesarb> ljp: there's openmoko-image and openmoko-devel-image
Oct 09 01:37:30 <cesarb> ljp: everyone here uses openmoko-devel-image
Oct 09 01:37:42 <cesarb> ljp: but what you are presenting us with is more like openmoko-image
Oct 09 01:37:53 <ljp> so write one
Oct 09 01:37:53 <cesarb> ljp: meant for end-users, not for hackers
Oct 09 01:38:01 <ljp> hackers can also ssh into 
Oct 09 01:38:03 <ljp> it
Oct 09 01:38:05 <cesarb> ljp: I can't even get qtopia to compile :(
Oct 09 01:43:53 <gmaxwell> <ljp> and besides.. its a phone
Oct 09 01:44:36 <gmaxwell> Ehhh.. There are a lot of phones on the market that are ahead of openmoko (even qtopoia) in the "It's a phone" department.
Oct 09 01:45:19 <gmaxwell> I think it's an error to say "It's a phone, users don't need X weird feauture" when the ability to do X weird feature is what makes the product stand out.
Oct 09 01:46:40 <ljp> a term on a phone is at most a niche use case
Oct 09 01:46:53 <cesarb> gmaxwell: agreed, in fact the whole point of the neo is making it do weird things...
Oct 09 01:47:19 <ljp> and anyone can write one if they want
Oct 09 01:48:12 <gmaxwell> ljp, I'd agree the term is more niche, but a ssh client isn't.. and if the client could be pointed at localhost then all is good on both fronts.
Oct 09 01:48:33 <ljp> ssh client is a niche use case as well
Oct 09 01:48:48 <ljp> qtopia doesnt have a ssh client
Oct 09 01:48:58 <ljp> but anyone could write one
Oct 09 01:48:59 <gmaxwell> ljp, I know at least a dozen people locally that have ssh clients on their blackberries.. 
Oct 09 01:49:21 <ljp> thats fine, but it didn;t come shipped with one
Oct 09 01:49:34 <ljp> a 3rd party wrote one
Oct 09 01:49:43 <gmaxwell> A niche case among the general public, not a niche case among much of moko's users.
Oct 09 01:50:15 <ljp> depends on who your target is.
Oct 09 01:50:38 <ljp> if OM only targets hackers, then they wont sell many
Oct 09 01:51:15 <ljp> I dont know of one operator that would put a term on a phone
Oct 09 01:51:37 <gmaxwell> funny, I'm not even talking about hackers with the ssh on blackberries. "Technoligy professionals"  ... and it's a false comparison when you imply that including a ssh client means not targeting a broader audience that doesn't care about one.
Oct 09 01:52:22 <ljp> ok, then why didnt the blackberry ship with an ssh client?
Oct 09 01:52:42 <gmaxwell> of course carriers wouldn't put it on the devices, they can sell them for $10/month. :)
Oct 09 01:53:40 <gmaxwell> ljp, so the goal is to feature match some phones that have been on the market for years and no more? Why the heck would anyone buy one then?
Oct 09 01:54:16 <ljp> i dont see how a term app is going to sell more to a mass market audience
Oct 09 01:54:47 <ljp> besides, qtopia is open source.. anyone can write one if they wanted
Oct 09 01:56:21 <gmaxwell> ljp, Because trend leaders go "wow look what this has that iphone doesn't isn't that neat" ... and then they go convince other folks to buy it.   It's a process that scales, but it works best if you can appeal to the as many niche interests as possible.
Oct 09 01:56:54 <gmaxwell> Every person who is convinced to buy one based on it having easy and obvious support for their nice interest may result in a half dozen sales to more bread and butter folks.
Oct 09 01:57:58 <ljp> but dont you think if term apps on phones meant more phones being sold, there would be term apps on phones?
Oct 09 01:59:38 <gmaxwell> It's a bit different when you're an established force in the market.  In the US, at least, the *primary* consideration people have when choosing a phone is which phones their providers offer. 
Oct 09 02:00:03 <gmaxwell> And which phones providers offer seem to increasingly have more to do with which phones they can sell additional services to more than anything else.
Oct 09 02:01:29 <gmaxwell> I mean.. for gods sake man. Openmoko comes with a laserpointer and flashlight! And you think a ssh client is too obsecure to include in the default build that has plenty of free space on the flash? :)
Oct 09 02:01:40 <Pengu1n> hi there
Oct 09 02:02:00 <Pengu1n> openmoko/flash.sh: line 88: 24918 Terminated              $qemu -mtdblock "$script_dir/$flash_base" -kernel "$script_dir/$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up.make: *** [flash-qemu-local] Error 255
Oct 09 02:02:20 <Pengu1n> I got thiss error while run 'make flash-qemu-local'
Oct 09 02:02:25 <Pengu1n> any comments?
Oct 09 02:03:08 <cesarb> gmaxwell: ah, so THAT's what the silly pen was for! so we could use the "laserpointer and flashlight" argument!
Oct 09 02:03:22 <cesarb> Pengu1n: try again until it works
Oct 09 02:03:48 <Pengu1n> yes, But I'v tried many times.
Oct 09 02:07:12 <gmaxwell> cesarb, I wish it were a bit smaller, and that the pen part was a bit nicer.. :) oh well. heh
Oct 09 02:22:00 <sagacis|work> hey!
Oct 09 02:22:56 <gmaxwell> is there some handy mailing list or webpage so I can find out about all changes to the repository?
Oct 09 02:23:12 <sagacis_> I'm here to verify the Ballmer peak is a very sharp curve
Oct 09 02:23:39 <gmaxwell> sagacis, that graph is missing the other important curve:
Oct 09 02:23:52 <gmaxwell> Percieved programming ability.
Oct 09 02:23:59 <gmaxwell> It's a continously increasing function.
Oct 09 02:24:06 <sagacis_> gmaxwell: I perceive GREATNESS right now
Oct 09 02:24:19 <kristian-m> gmaxwell oh i thought you mean coffee
Oct 09 02:24:25 <gmaxwell> sagacis, but the damn compiler does not agree?
Oct 09 02:24:26 <sagacis_> gmaxwell: commitlog@lists.openmoko.org
Oct 09 02:24:34 <sagacis_> It's wrong.
Oct 09 02:24:42 <sagacis_> (the compiler)
Oct 09 02:25:16 <sagacis_> Is there any programmer on the planet who isn't suddenly very familiar with xkcd?
Oct 09 02:37:01 <cesarb> gmaxwell: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2007-October/thread.html and http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-commits/2007-October/thread.html
Oct 09 02:41:21 <sagacis_> Has anybody seen the acme foxbox?
Oct 09 02:43:46 <gmaxwell> cesarb, thank you!
Oct 09 02:45:58 <cesarb> gmaxwell: I also like http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/buglog/2007-October/thread.html a lot
Oct 09 02:55:49 <Writchie> so we can talk to neo and u-boot through vmware virtual machine running on XP but dfu-util doesn't work - device stays in runtime mode! 
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Oct 09 02:59:56 2007