**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Oct 17 02:59:56 2007
Oct 17 03:16:24 <caligari_spain> hi everybody
Oct 17 03:17:55 <caligari_spain> my Neo is dead now :-(
Oct 17 03:18:28 <caligari_spain> can anybody help me to debug with jtag board?
Oct 17 03:28:15 * Morph pokes raster 
Oct 17 04:24:23 <mopri> guys.. you think with the neo you could bluetooth audio to a car radio?
Oct 17 04:25:02 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03jserv * r3199 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/util/shell.c: (log message trimmed)
Oct 17 04:25:02 <CIA-23> openmoko: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=834
Oct 17 04:25:02 <CIA-23> openmoko: From: Kristian Mueller <kristian@mput.de>
Oct 17 04:25:02 <CIA-23> openmoko: Subject: [PATCH] libgsmd-tool does not allow sms with more than one word
Oct 17 04:25:02 <CIA-23> openmoko: libgsmd-tool only allows for command strings without spaces.
Oct 17 04:25:05 <CIA-23> openmoko: SMS messages with more than one word will be parsed as multible commands.
Oct 17 04:25:07 <CIA-23> openmoko: The patch introduces SMS message text in bracket and fixes a NULL pointer
Oct 17 04:27:02 <caligari_spain> mopri: yes, openmoko supports BT audio stream
Oct 17 04:36:46 <CM> caligari_spain: Dead battery or broken u-boot?
Oct 17 04:40:19 <caligari_spain> CM: battery seems ok (3.56V)
Oct 17 04:41:53 <caligari_spain> CM: I have flashed u-boot, but it ran ok in the moment...
Oct 17 04:42:10 <CM> ok..
Oct 17 04:42:46 <caligari_spain> :) debug board connected 
Oct 17 04:43:43 <caligari_spain> libftdi installed
Oct 17 04:46:11 <caligari_spain> compiling ftdi_eeprom: ftdi.h not found :-(
Oct 17 05:05:27 <caligari_spain> ftdi_eeprom compiled :-)
Oct 17 05:07:57 * CM notices the progress ;)
Oct 17 05:10:10 <nguenthe> So, I just got my neo1973 this morning for the win, but the GSM doesn't work. Currently I'm trying to cu -l /dev/ttySAC0 but it says permission denied. Hints?
Oct 17 05:12:12 <caligari_spain> nguenthe: sudo chown uucp.uucp /dev/ttyACM0
Oct 17 05:12:59 <caligari_spain> sudo chown uucp.uucp /dev/ttySAC0
Oct 17 05:13:24 <CM> nguenthe: If you're ssh:ed into the neo, try using libgsmd-tool
Oct 17 05:13:28 <caligari_spain> jeje on neo: try chown uucp.uucp /dev/ttyACM0
Oct 17 05:14:04 <nguenthe> huh. that's funny. it seems to have worked.
Oct 17 05:14:07 <nguenthe> Thanks!
Oct 17 05:14:32 * CM is off to work
Oct 17 05:14:38 <nguenthe> I thought I was root though, does cu drop privileges or something?
Oct 17 05:15:27 <jserv--> nguenthe, cu cares the file permission of /dev/ttyACM0.
Oct 17 05:15:47 <jserv--> nguenthe, cu makes use of access(2) for manipulating.
Oct 17 05:22:40 <nguenthe> jserv--, thanks.
Oct 17 05:22:47 <caligari_spain> eh! my neo is booting again!
Oct 17 05:23:30 <nguenthe> I'm trying via ssh now and of course I can't access ttuSAC0 directly
Oct 17 05:23:58 <nguenthe> so I'm trying to use libgsmd-tool but it's not working because gsmd doesn't like to run on my neo
Oct 17 05:24:48 <jserv--> nguenthe, maybe you can try /etc/init.d/gsmd restart.
Oct 17 05:25:32 <Hopscotch> good morning
Oct 17 05:28:14 <mbuf> Hopscotch, good morning
Oct 17 05:28:54 <mbuf> nguenthe, i always restart gsmd before testing it
Oct 17 05:35:32 <mopri> does anyone see themselves finger typing some ssh commands?.. like on the road?
Oct 17 05:37:22 <mbuf> mopri, depends on how easy it is to type
Oct 17 05:41:02 <caligari_spain> howto translate openmoko-* ?
Oct 17 05:44:00 <CM> caligari_spain: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation_HOWTO ? :)
Oct 17 05:48:52 <caligari_spain> thank you CM
Oct 17 05:50:37 <caligari_spain> i am discovering last changes: clock panel, media player out, panels bar stable... great!
Oct 17 05:53:06 <nguenthe> caligari_spain: what version is that
Oct 17 05:55:30 <caligari_spain> nguenthe: today, 5 hours ago
Oct 17 06:03:34 <CM> caligari_spain: Is the browser included in the roofs now? (Wasn't yesterday)
Oct 17 06:05:03 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03jserv * r3200 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/ (gsmd/sms_pdu.c util/event.c): (log message trimmed)
Oct 17 06:05:03 <CIA-23> openmoko: SMS status report
Oct 17 06:05:03 <CIA-23> openmoko: From: Erin Yueh <erin_yueh@openmoko.com>
Oct 17 06:05:03 <CIA-23> openmoko: Subject: [PATCH] SMS status report
Oct 17 06:05:03 <CIA-23> openmoko: I made a patch for SMS status report. It can change SMS-Submit messages
Oct 17 06:05:05 <CIA-23> openmoko: and ask for a status report. When the destination address receives our
Oct 17 06:05:09 <CIA-23> openmoko: message, the service center will send a SMS-STATUS-REPORT to us. We can
Oct 17 06:08:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03jserv * r3201 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (5 files in 5 dirs): 
Oct 17 06:08:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: Added 'Ask Status report' option in shell.
Oct 17 06:08:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: From: Andrzej Zaborowski <balrogg@gmail.com>
Oct 17 06:09:00 <CIA-23> openmoko: I also moved the .ask_ds field from struct gsmd_sms into struct
Oct 17 06:09:00 <CIA-23> openmoko: gsmd_sms_submit because it seemed more logical being a property
Oct 17 06:09:01 <CIA-23> openmoko: of SMS-SUBMIT PDU.
Oct 17 06:13:13 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03jserv * r3202 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (5 files in 4 dirs): 
Oct 17 06:13:13 <CIA-23> openmoko: Improvement for find and read phonebooks in gsmd.
Oct 17 06:13:13 <CIA-23> openmoko: From: Sean Chiang <sean_chiang@openmoko.com>
Oct 17 06:13:13 <CIA-23> openmoko: Subject: [PATCH] Improvement for find and read phonebooks in gsmd
Oct 17 06:13:13 <CIA-23> openmoko: This patch is an improvement for find and read phonebooks.
Oct 17 06:13:13 <CIA-23> openmoko: After clients make a request to find / read phonebooks, then clients
Oct 17 06:13:18 <CIA-23> openmoko: should make a request to retrieve all the records.
Oct 17 06:14:48 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03jserv * r3203 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/util/shell.c: 
Oct 17 06:14:48 <CIA-23> openmoko: Improvement for finding / reading phonebook records in shell.
Oct 17 06:14:48 <CIA-23> openmoko: From: Sean Chiang <sean_chiang@openmoko.com>
Oct 17 06:14:48 <CIA-23> openmoko: Subject: [PATCH] improvement for find and read phonebooks in shell
Oct 17 06:14:48 <CIA-23> openmoko: This patch improves the functions to find and read phonebooks in shell.
Oct 17 06:14:49 <CIA-23> openmoko: Besides prr and pf, I add two new commands pRr and pRf to retrieve the
Oct 17 06:14:50 <caligari_spain> CM: i can't see browsers, an input manager in utilities (does not work) and a new terminal (tabs on top and tab navigator)
Oct 17 06:14:53 <CIA-23> openmoko: phonebook.
Oct 17 06:15:26 <CM> caligari_spain: Hmm.. XorA|gone said he added it yesterday. Maybe he didn't
Oct 17 06:17:50 <caligari_spain> bye bye, see you
Oct 17 06:43:42 <Sup3rkiddo> projects.openmoko.org is down?
Oct 17 06:43:55 <Sup3rkiddo> never mind, works now
Oct 17 06:46:36 <zash> tröttheten!
Oct 17 06:48:52 <CM> zash: Den är enorm.. :P
Oct 17 06:49:23 <zash> stackars fan :(
Oct 17 06:50:48 <CM> Nja, så går det när man spelar biljard och dricker öl på en tisdagkväll.. ;)
Oct 17 06:51:18 * CM stops talking bork bork bork
Oct 17 06:51:53 <zash> bork bork me not like 08-17 bork bork bork
Oct 17 06:53:26 * CM doesn't like 7-18 :-/
Oct 17 07:26:27 <CM> XorA: Good morning
Oct 17 07:26:37 <XorA> morning CM
Oct 17 07:26:41 <Henryk> Moin
Oct 17 07:26:45 <CM> Did you add the openmoko-browser2 to the rootfs?
Oct 17 07:26:47 <XorA> CM: browser is defineately in new images
Oct 17 07:26:58 <CM> Hmm.. Ok, rebuilding again now :)
Oct 17 07:27:38 <CM> NOTE: package openmoko-browser2-0.0.1+svnr3082: completed :D
Oct 17 07:28:29 <afoo> hi, I am just starting to play around with my neo, I managed to flash the device, but cannot seem to see where the keyboard is
Oct 17 07:28:39 <afoo> it does not automatically appear
Oct 17 07:28:50 * ScaredyCat hides in the bushes
Oct 17 07:29:23 * ScaredyCat appears
Oct 17 07:29:30 <CM> XorA: Would there be anything bad including a /etc/resolv.conf having only "nameserver 192.168.0.200" in the default rootfs?
Oct 17 07:29:55 <CM> Or should that be handled some other way?
Oct 17 07:30:12 * CM cuts down all those bushes
Oct 17 07:30:24 <XorA> CM: there is a patch for that, but it wasnt quite right, /etc/resolvconf should be a ling to /var/run/resolv.conf which I think should be generated from /etc/network/interfaces
Oct 17 07:30:36 <XorA> CM: it used to work once, I dont know why it stopped
Oct 17 07:30:54 <CM> afoo: Either it appears, or you can press the small keyboard icon in the panel
Oct 17 07:31:02 <CM> XorA: Ok, thanks
Oct 17 07:31:18 <XorA> CM: will try and look into it today
Oct 17 07:32:43 <afoo> CM, I heard there was a keyboard icon in the bottom middle, but I do not see anything, for example even in the Today screenshot on openmoko, I do not see any keyboard icon
Oct 17 07:32:50 <afoo> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Today
Oct 17 07:33:20 <CM> afoo: That's a very old screenshot
Oct 17 07:33:32 <CM> afoo: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/
Oct 17 07:35:16 <afoo> CM: I would say my interface looks more like the old screenshot
Oct 17 07:35:28 <afoo> Is there a way to update the software?
Oct 17 07:35:34 <CM> XorA: /etc/network/interfaces does have 192.168.0.200 as gateway, but I don't have any /var/run/resolv.conf
Oct 17 07:35:40 <CM> afoo: Sure is :)
Oct 17 07:36:03 <CM> afoo: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko
Oct 17 07:36:40 <Henryk> afoo: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/2d1550f3c8bb3cb9bb539c7c5d576fe6.png is a more current snapshot. (though it's missing the bar at the top: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/60ae49591f783c8af857e496f2809c3e.png)
Oct 17 07:36:53 <mbuf> is /var mounted on NAND flash on Neo1973?
Oct 17 07:38:00 <CM> afoo: Don't flash a new uboot unless you really need it and know what you're doing. But play around with kernel and rootfs :)
Oct 17 07:38:14 <afoo> CM: okay, thanks
Oct 17 07:39:12 <CM> afoo: I'm running these images now: http://claesmogren.com/~cm/neo/2007.2/
Oct 17 07:39:14 <afoo> (and to Henryk as well)
Oct 17 07:39:34 <CM> afoo: Or use ScaredyCat's from http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/?M=D
Oct 17 07:40:20 * CM wonders a bit why the openmoko buildhost have been down for a whole month
Oct 17 07:41:55 <mbuf> why does the Neo1973 reboot while it has been idle for few minutes, and when connected to the PC through USB?
Oct 17 07:42:50 <LittleIdiot> i experienced that as well and blamed it on the battery...
Oct 17 07:42:55 <CM> mbuf: Mine doesnt.. Do you have powermanagement turned on?
Oct 17 07:42:59 <LittleIdiot> but not certain
Oct 17 07:43:13 <CM> Mine was on for 6 days connected to usb
Oct 17 07:43:34 <CM> without using it any that is.
Oct 17 07:43:47 <mbuf> CM, how do i check that?
Oct 17 07:43:59 <CM> mbuf: Hold in the power button so you get up the menu
Oct 17 07:44:10 <CM> I have Dim only selected
Oct 17 07:44:11 <mbuf> CM, i usually keep it connected for 10-12 hours a day; it says "Profile: No PM"
Oct 17 07:44:27 <CM> Hmm, ok. I've tried that one too
Oct 17 07:44:58 <mbuf> CM, even otherwise, why would it reboot; it should just suspend and resume
Oct 17 07:45:04 <mbuf> *would it reboot?
Oct 17 07:45:45 <CM> Just heard that it's been trouble suspending and waking up, so guessed it could have something to do with that
Oct 17 07:46:02 <mbuf> ok
Oct 17 07:50:15 <Cyorxamp> Lo, does anyone know where I can find information on what (I'm guessing) is the GTA03 ?  i.e. The one with WiFi and also CDMA capabilities?
Oct 17 07:50:16 <Henryk> hmpf, "ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-ui: xserver-kdrive-common"
Oct 17 07:54:36 <CM> Cyorxamp: GTA03 is only vague rumours so far
Oct 17 07:54:53 <Cyorxamp> :(
Oct 17 07:55:14 <Cyorxamp> CDMA is totally a must, I don't care about GSM - it's dead compared to CDMA with VoIP
Oct 17 07:55:30 <CM> Cyorxamp: No.
Oct 17 07:55:51 <CM> Cyorxamp: In the US maybe, but that's only a small part of the world
Oct 17 07:55:57 <Cyorxamp> The UK too
Oct 17 07:56:30 <Cyorxamp> In fact _especially_ in the UK... all of our analogue phone lines are going to be switched off by 2012 and everyone will be on VoIP
Oct 17 07:56:44 <Cyorxamp> So taking your VoIP number with you (since everyone will have one) is a must
Oct 17 07:56:44 <Henryk> does anybody else except the US use anything besides GSM?
Oct 17 07:57:05 <CM> UMTS
Oct 17 07:58:16 <Mek> japan/korea also don't use gsm...
Oct 17 07:58:22 <Cyorxamp> UMTS is CMDA
Oct 17 07:58:35 <Henryk> well UMTS is only considered as a GSM upgrade
Oct 17 07:58:52 <CM> Not really
Oct 17 07:59:34 <ScaredyCat> a /me prods CM
Oct 17 07:59:39 <ScaredyCat> -a of course
Oct 17 08:00:12 <ScaredyCat> ever seen ttyacm0 not appear
Oct 17 08:00:21 <Henryk> for most practical purposes I'd consider UMTS as a proper subset of GSM (coverage-wise)
Oct 17 08:00:44 <Cyorxamp> An always on CDMA capable device would become my temporary fix until WiMax
Oct 17 08:01:25 <Cyorxamp> UMTS combines the W-CDMA, TD-CDMA, or TD-SCDMA air interfaces
Oct 17 08:01:50 <Cyorxamp> Whats and how what is sent down it is GSM... but thats at the choice of the devices using that radio technology
Oct 17 08:02:00 <Cyorxamp> i.e. The codec
Oct 17 08:02:35 <CM> Cyorxamp: You're right on that :)
Oct 17 08:03:27 * Cyorxamp hugs Wikipedia... you are my BRAIN!
Oct 17 08:04:35 <CM> Wikipedia also says that 82% of the global mobile market uses GSM
Oct 17 08:04:51 <CM> By over 2 billion people..
Oct 17 08:05:15 <Cyorxamp> Sure GSM isn't something to be dropped... just something I'm not concerned with looking ahead
Oct 17 08:05:40 <CM> I agree, I want UMTS or better, but I guess that will take a while
Oct 17 08:06:19 <ScaredyCat> aahaaa!
Oct 17 08:14:23 <mbuf> Cyorxamp, doesn't WiMax consume lot of power compared to the other mobile technologies in the market?
Oct 17 08:14:37 <Cyorxamp> No idea :P
Oct 17 08:14:51 <Cyorxamp> Ask Wikipedia :P
Oct 17 08:15:50 <zash> or google
Oct 17 08:16:30 <Cyorxamp> I wouldn't be surprised if 'wiki' becomes the next google, hoover, or xerox :D
Oct 17 08:16:38 <Cyorxamp> Go wiki it!
Oct 17 08:17:11 <egypt> The Hitch Hiker's Wiki to the Galaxy
Oct 17 08:17:23 <Cyorxamp> :D
Oct 17 08:17:40 <CM> Cyorxamp: Or wp ;) I always use wp <query> in firefox 
Oct 17 08:17:46 <Cyorxamp> GO GO register that domain and don't return until theres a working intergalactic web site :D
Oct 17 08:18:29 <zash> w $query -> google("$query site:wikipedia.org")
Oct 17 08:18:33 <Cyorxamp> Well Oxford dictionary has google, xerox and hoover, I wouldn't be surprised if wiki is next.
Oct 17 08:18:48 <egypt> it would be an exact mirror of wikipedia except for the entry for Earth
Oct 17 08:18:53 <CM> I don't like Broadcom, but this looks like a neat chip: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8838596703.html
Oct 17 08:18:58 <Cyorxamp> Anyways gotta get back to work :D
Oct 17 08:19:08 <egypt> which would be just two words: "Mostly harmless"
Oct 17 08:21:26 <Henryk> Cyorxamp: i would, because "wiki" is generic for "editable website" (kindof). only wikipedia is wikipedia.
Oct 17 08:21:54 <egypt> and it's kind of awkward as a verb
Oct 17 08:22:04 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03jserv * r3204 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/include/libgsmd/misc.h: Expose lgsm_signal_quality in order to replace lgsm_get_signal_quality.
Oct 17 08:29:19 <masterbrian> greetings :)
Oct 17 08:29:36 <masterbrian> I'm having problems compiling openmoko from mokomakefile.
Oct 17 08:29:44 <masterbrian> I've problem with packet midori
Oct 17 08:30:03 <masterbrian> I've followed the procedure and attempet to compile the packet 3 times before asking ;)
Oct 17 08:30:15 <masterbrian> I've found no bugs open in bugzilla about that problem
Oct 17 08:31:35 <masterbrian> anyone can help?
Oct 17 08:33:31 <ScaredyCat> does it kick out errors with webkit ?
Oct 17 08:33:44 <masterbrian> yes
Oct 17 08:33:54 <paulproteus> CM, I felt the same way re: Broadcom and that chip.
Oct 17 08:34:01 <masterbrian> something like:  document.h:51: error: expected declaration specifiers or '...' before 'WebKitGtkFrame'
Oct 17 08:34:30 <ScaredyCat> ok, so this is the same prblem i have masterbrian - this is the problem with us using a dev/head version of the oe stuff...
Oct 17 08:34:38 <Henryk> easiest solution: edit openembedded/packages/tasks/task-openmoko-feed.bb and remove the line that reads midori \
Oct 17 08:35:10 <Henryk> i'd wage a guess that probably everybody has the problem, except maybe srcrev-insane users
Oct 17 08:35:54 <masterbrian> Henryk: but I can remove package without breaking my openmoko-image?
Oct 17 08:36:00 <ScaredyCat> yes
Oct 17 08:36:11 <ScaredyCat> midori is a web browser...
Oct 17 08:36:18 <ScaredyCat> you don't need it
Oct 17 08:36:22 <masterbrian> oh... ok :)
Oct 17 08:36:23 <ScaredyCat> for stuff to work
Oct 17 08:36:31 <ScaredyCat> it's just annoying that it's broken
Oct 17 08:36:40 <masterbrian> but I should open a bug? because I've found no one about that problem...
Oct 17 08:36:56 <ScaredyCat> it's an OE issue not an OM issue
Oct 17 08:37:17 <masterbrian> Understood, very clear, thank you
Oct 17 08:41:39 <Ghiottone|work> good morning
Oct 17 08:42:10 <ScaredyCat> nin
Oct 17 08:57:37 <CM> paulproteus: If they released the specs for it, it would be nice to have in a GTA03 or so :)
Oct 17 08:58:27 <XorA> masterbrian: midori builds now, but wont run for me
Oct 17 09:00:38 <paulproteus> CM, Agreed!
Oct 17 09:01:15 <paulproteus> But "all I want" right now is this power-invalid-state bug fixed so I can use the Neo as a phone full-time without having to let it sit for 10h before recharging it.
Oct 17 09:01:46 <CM> paulproteus: Agreed! :D
Oct 17 09:02:26 <CM> Also, to actually be able to play with the GPS would be fun, since that was one of the main features of GTA01...
Oct 17 09:02:58 <paulproteus> Did they have to change the GPS module?
Oct 17 09:03:14 <paulproteus> I see that the topic says they'll use an Atmel chip.  Is that different from the past?
Oct 17 09:03:24 <CM> Yes, it's different
Oct 17 09:03:25 <mjr> it's different
Oct 17 09:03:40 <CM> The first chip was from Global Locate, who got bought by Broadcom..
Oct 17 09:03:56 <CM> And when they changed from oabi to eabi, the blob didn't work any more
Oct 17 09:04:53 <paulproteus> Man, life is hard.
Oct 17 09:05:12 <paulproteus> I just saw the series of handhelds/phones made by HTC (and discussed in #htc-linux) and noticed that OM software runs on many of them.
Oct 17 09:13:19 * paulproteus catches up on old community@ mail
Oct 17 09:30:10 <Stephmw> yo.
Oct 17 09:44:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 944 has been created by sudharsh(AT)gmail.com
Oct 17 09:44:02 <cdbot2> * * unction name of the prototype in misc.h and libgsmd_network.c
Oct 17 09:44:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=944
Oct 17 10:12:17 <abraxa_> XorA: You around?
Oct 17 10:13:29 <XorA> abraxa_: no :-D
Oct 17 10:14:00 <abraxa_> Oh okay :(
Oct 17 10:14:20 <XorA> abraxa_: whats up
Oct 17 10:14:21 <abraxa_> Well, when you're around, can you have a look at http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3155 ;)
Oct 17 10:15:55 <XorA> abraxa_: looks fairly obvuious, but nothing gst based ever works for me
Oct 17 10:16:22 <abraxa_> "nothing gst-based ever works for me"?
Oct 17 10:16:26 <abraxa_> In what sense? :O
Oct 17 10:16:43 <XorA> never got a gst based player running in OM or ANgstrom
Oct 17 10:17:31 <abraxa_> Does that imply you never got openmoko-mediaplayer2 to run also?
Oct 17 10:18:30 <XorA> abraxa_: yes
Oct 17 10:19:06 <abraxa_> Surprises me - I'd like to figure out why whenever you got some time
Oct 17 10:19:31 <XorA> comes up with an error box that says cannot create resource
Oct 17 10:19:49 <XorA> Im using the wrong GTA at the moment to debug it
Oct 17 10:19:54 <CM> Or the error shows so quickly you can't even read it
Oct 17 10:22:55 <abraxa_> CM: The "dialog closes itself" bug was fixed in SVN quite a while ago actually
Oct 17 10:23:15 <CM> I know, but I've been too lazy to build it from svn ;)
Oct 17 10:23:22 <abraxa_> hehe
Oct 17 10:23:49 <CM> OM is unstable everywher anyway, and a stable/unstable split of it would be nice
Oct 17 10:23:52 <abraxa_> XorA: When you get a spare minute I'd like you to try doing an "ipkg install gst-plugin-pulse" and trying the player again
Oct 17 10:24:11 <XorA> abraxa_: that should be in images be default now
Oct 17 10:24:46 <abraxa_> XorA: Yeah, just your installation will lack it unless your image is new enough (which I don't know) :)
Oct 17 10:25:02 <XorA> abraxa_: my image is after mickey|zzZZzz fixed that
Oct 17 10:25:09 <abraxa_> Ahh
Oct 17 10:25:11 <abraxa_> Hm.
Oct 17 10:25:12 <XorA> abraxa_: Im doing a build once every 30 mins or so
Oct 17 10:25:52 <abraxa_> Maybe gstreamer just *really* hates you ;)
Oct 17 10:26:03 <abraxa_> I'll see about it when I can, though
Oct 17 10:26:38 <CM> Why is there an esd.conf in /etc/ when it's not running?
Oct 17 10:26:48 <XorA> abraxa_: are you the author?
Oct 17 10:27:03 <abraxa_> XorA: Of the media player, yeah
Oct 17 10:27:17 <XorA> abraxa_: ah cool, Ill give you a shout when I figure it out
Oct 17 10:27:26 <abraxa_> XorA: Great :)
Oct 17 10:27:41 <XorA> abraxa_: Im convinced to put that patch in as soon as I can do due diligence on it
Oct 17 10:28:39 <abraxa_> That's fine, having it in at the same time as the new GUI would be a nice surprise for folks ;)
Oct 17 10:38:18 <mickeyl> is it me or has someone broken the ringtone?
Oct 17 10:38:25 <mickeyl> i only get vibration
Oct 17 10:41:24 <Ghiottone|work> is package qte broken?
Oct 17 10:46:33 <aag7fa2L> counter
Oct 17 11:00:07 <ScaredyCat> mickeyl: that's all we've ever had :)
Oct 17 11:00:25 <mickeyl> hmm interesting. it rang for a couple of weeks
Oct 17 11:00:30 <mickeyl> now it no longer
Oct 17 11:05:08 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: alphaone added some speaker button audio alsa state change thingy.
Oct 17 11:05:41 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Normally I would not think he break things, but thats the only one I would suspect in the ringing area
Oct 17 11:06:34 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: hmm. ok
Oct 17 11:08:08 <pvanhoof> maybe the sound file is not on the fs :)?
Oct 17 11:13:06 <SpeedEvil> mickeyl: Have you gone deaf?
Oct 17 11:13:18 <pvanhoof> oh yes, that's also a possibility
Oct 17 11:13:33 <mickeyl> no, i can still hear the startup sound
Oct 17 11:13:51 <pvanhoof> selectively deaf?
Oct 17 11:14:06 <CM> I don't have any start up sound
Oct 17 11:14:14 <pvanhoof> perhaps change the ringtone to the sound-track of a porn movie?
Oct 17 11:14:21 <SpeedEvil> Oh Yes!
Oct 17 11:14:42 <CVirus> LOL .. nerds
Oct 17 11:14:56 <pvanhoof> at your service CVirus 
Oct 17 11:14:57 <cjb_ie> record your own!
Oct 17 11:15:06 <CM> movie?
Oct 17 11:16:03 <CM> Is there any sound recorder app for OpenMoko? Could be quite useful. 
Oct 17 11:16:07 <SpeedEvil> cat
Oct 17 11:17:03 <CM> SpeedEvil: :P  I was thinking more like a simple gui where you can select encoding and bitrate, and start-stop with a button :)
Oct 17 11:17:15 <SpeedEvil> Wow, you're picky :)
Oct 17 11:17:22 <SpeedEvil> Wanting an actual GUI! Whatever next.
Oct 17 11:17:26 <SpeedEvil> Would be nice.
Oct 17 11:17:40 <pvanhoof> last time I tried using the terminal on my openmoko, the keyboard didn't appear. so that "cat" ui ain't usable :-\
Oct 17 11:17:57 <SpeedEvil> Voice detection dropping it into dated files'd be nice.
Oct 17 11:18:03 <CM> I think the keyboard has worked pretty well the last few weeks
Oct 17 11:18:24 <pvanhoof> I'll need to reflash one of these days, I'll retry it :)
Oct 17 11:19:03 <CM> pvanhoof: Any rumor about an openmoko mail client? ;)
Oct 17 11:19:38 <pvanhoof> If I would know about that, and tell you, I would have to kil... no that's what Nokia wanted us to say
Oct 17 11:19:41 <pvanhoof> eum :)
Oct 17 11:19:44 <pvanhoof> Ask mickeyl 
Oct 17 11:19:54 <CM> Hehe.. Ok, I will :)
Oct 17 11:20:19 <pvanhoof> You can tryout Modest on a n800 already though
Oct 17 11:20:45 <CM> I've seen it but not tried it, don't have a n800. 
Oct 17 11:20:48 <pvanhoof> but it heavily depends on hildon right now
Oct 17 11:21:02 <mickeyl> odds are likely that there will be a tinymail based client for OM soonish
Oct 17 11:21:11 <pvanhoof> you could try it out by installing Chinook in a scratchbox
Oct 17 11:22:15 <pvanhoof> CM, but I'm pretty sure you can make tny-demoui run with few effort on your openmoko
Oct 17 11:22:32 <CM> Hmm.. Would be fun to try that
Oct 17 11:23:08 <pvanhoof> relatively sure, as there's nearly nothing that doesn't compile. Just need to deploy it and try I guess :)
Oct 17 11:23:10 <pvanhoof> :p
Oct 17 11:24:04 <pvanhoof> and if things like gconf are a problem, you can use --with-platform=olpc, which uses a .ini file in $HOME/.tinymail for its configuration
Oct 17 11:24:18 <pvanhoof> I'll make a libtinymail-openmoko soon :)
Oct 17 11:24:30 <CM> Ah, nice :)
Oct 17 11:26:53 <angel> oi
Oct 17 11:27:04 <angel> quem esta aí?
Oct 17 11:27:26 <CM> angel: No entiendo.. :P
Oct 17 11:27:42 <angel> mira que tal 
Oct 17 11:27:52 <cjb_ie> no hablo portugues :(
Oct 17 11:27:53 <angel> ustes és de onde?
Oct 17 11:27:59 <angel> madre de dios
Oct 17 11:28:22 <cjb_ie> madre de dios no esta aí :p
Oct 17 11:28:31 <CM> Hehe
Oct 17 11:29:00 <pvanhoof> We need auto-translators. Babelfish like
Oct 17 11:29:09 * pvanhoof puts his babelfish in his eyes
Oct 17 11:29:29 <CM> babel goggles
Oct 17 11:29:58 <pvanhoof> I liked the cute fishes more :) (especially in the movie)
Oct 17 11:29:59 <angel> olá
Oct 17 11:30:03 <angel> kakkakakakak
Oct 17 11:30:07 <cjb_ie> CM: like beer goggles, but different
Oct 17 11:30:32 <pvanhoof> kak in dutch means : to shit (on something), is this what you mean angel ?
Oct 17 11:30:48 <Kliment> now attach a camera to a neo and make a relaity augmentation tool
Oct 17 11:30:52 <pvanhoof> I know babelfishes 'kak' in my ears :)
Oct 17 11:30:57 <Kliment> that, yes, does translations for you
Oct 17 11:31:00 <CM> cjb_ie: I wonder what google's automatic translation would do when you mix languages
Oct 17 11:31:10 <cjb_ie> CM: run in circles, scream and shout?
Oct 17 11:31:13 <Kliment> CM: it picks one
Oct 17 11:31:40 <pvanhoof> Kliment, speech recognition sends to google/babelfish and speeches the translated text while talking (in two directions)?
Oct 17 11:31:44 <pvanhoof> sounds like doable to implement this :)
Oct 17 11:31:47 <CM> Kliment: Hmm.. It shouldn't have to. Iirc it's purely using statistics and heuristics
Oct 17 11:31:54 <angel> gente de Deus onde tem um canal em português
Oct 17 11:31:57 <angel> ??????????/
Oct 17 11:31:58 <cjb_ie> is there a recognised way to tag language in HTML? as in, with less scope than entire document?
Oct 17 11:32:09 <CM> angel: English please
Oct 17 11:32:25 <Kliment> CM: it uses classification methods to figure out the original language
Oct 17 11:32:26 <cjb_ie> CM: inte svenska? :p
Oct 17 11:32:38 <CM> cjb_ie: Nej! bork bork bork..
Oct 17 11:32:42 <pvanhoof> hey, I'm totally pro multi cultures and multi languages. But indeed, let's stick to english :)
Oct 17 11:32:53 <cjb_ie> pvanhoof: ja, dat klopt
Oct 17 11:32:58 <pvanhoof> gelijk heb je
Oct 17 11:33:04 <CM> genau..
Oct 17 11:33:08 <Kliment> CM: once classified it uses the language context to make more accurate guesses about translations
Oct 17 11:33:29 <Kliment> guys, I'm fluent in finnish, bulgarian, and english and can manage a fair bit of german, swedish and dutch
Oct 17 11:33:38 <Kliment> I don't think you want to hear that mix
Oct 17 11:34:08 <pvanhoof> I speak Nederlands, to parle le French too?
Oct 17 11:34:16 <pvanhoof> Sounds like Brussels
Oct 17 11:34:17 <cjb_ie> Kliment: zdraveite!
Oct 17 11:34:25 <CM> Kliment: *nod* Makes sense.. But it should be possible to disregard that and only try to identify words, then classify each sentence
Oct 17 11:34:58 <pvanhoof> s/to/tu of course
Oct 17 11:34:58 <Kliment> CM: the whole point of the translation engine is to use context to predict a correct sentence
Oct 17 11:35:09 <Henryk> cjb_ie: <span lang="..." xml:lang="..."> ... </span>
Oct 17 11:35:10 <Kliment> CM: word for word translations don't make sense
Oct 17 11:35:23 <Kliment> Henryk: indeed, but who does that?
Oct 17 11:35:31 <CM> Kliment: No, but sentences might be good enough
Oct 17 11:35:32 <Henryk> me
Oct 17 11:35:51 * CM was picturing an irc channel with mixed languages
Oct 17 11:35:53 <Kliment> ah indeed
Oct 17 11:35:54 <pvanhoof> Let's propose <span context=""> at w3c then :)
Oct 17 11:36:10 <Kliment> I once played around with language prediction
Oct 17 11:36:21 <Kliment> and been reading a fair bit about it the last few weeks
Oct 17 11:36:35 <CM> I find it very interesting too
Oct 17 11:36:52 <CM> But I haven't read about it for quite a while. Need to catch up again
Oct 17 11:36:55 <angel> oi
Oct 17 11:37:01 * CM has too many interests.. :(
Oct 17 11:37:01 <pvanhoof> Well, my gf is studying languages to become a translator. She told me translation software is a huge market for just the translators
Oct 17 11:37:05 <pvanhoof> they all use it as aid
Oct 17 11:37:21 <pvanhoof> and the softwares, like systran, cost really a lot (the good versions of it)
Oct 17 11:37:28 <CM> pvanhoof: Must be much quicker if you need to bulk translate text
Oct 17 11:37:38 <cjb_ie> yeah, one of my exes did linguistics - seriously brain-hurting subject
Oct 17 11:37:41 <CM> Automate it, then fix up the sentences where needed
Oct 17 11:37:56 <pvanhoof> CM, yes but even the best software translators produce text that can't be used in for example movie subtitles or book translations
Oct 17 11:38:11 <pvanhoof> indeed, so they fix all
Oct 17 11:38:28 <pvanhoof> and they of course have, when they move their cursor over a text, suggestion-panes and things like that
Oct 17 11:39:11 <pvanhoof> They usually get payed per translated word
Oct 17 11:39:44 <pvanhoof> And the very best in that world get to do live translations, for example at the European union in Brussels
Oct 17 11:39:54 <pvanhoof> but that's really hard
Oct 17 11:40:30 <CM> A small dictionary tool using some online source like m-w for english or google translate could be nice to have on a phone
Oct 17 11:40:52 <hrw> pvanhoof: yes. I remember when one friend told me that for one weekend of live translation se gets more then I for two months
Oct 17 11:40:59 <pvanhoof> Anyway, opensource lacks these tools :) so I usually have to install vmware on her computers
Oct 17 11:41:21 <pvanhoof> hrw, she (he) does this as a freelance?
Oct 17 11:41:46 <pvanhoof> I'm trying to persuade my gf to go self employed , or at least figure out how this world works in .be (and .nl)
Oct 17 11:41:54 <hrw> pvanhoof: freelance few years ago - now I do not know
Oct 17 11:42:25 <CM> Also, two months pay is very different in different countries.
Oct 17 11:42:27 <pvanhoof> oh, she'd love to get in touch with this person, so if you have his contact details and can give them to me .. that would be awesome :)
Oct 17 11:43:19 <Kliment> one of my english teachers back in high school did simultaneous translation for the EC
Oct 17 11:43:32 <CM> pvanhoof: Are there no university research projects or similar that are open source and good enough or at least promising?
Oct 17 11:43:41 <CM> For translating text that is
Oct 17 11:43:45 <Kliment> pvanhoof: vlaams?
Oct 17 11:43:46 <pvanhoof> CM, in the netherlands it's quite a lot. But if this person was self employed, hrw has to subtract 50% of the bruto price to get the netto one (a huge amount of your profits go to taxes in Europe)
Oct 17 11:43:52 <pvanhoof> Kliment, yes
Oct 17 11:44:03 <Kliment> my neo is in Leuven at the moment
Oct 17 11:44:12 <hrw> pvanhoof: 50%?
Oct 17 11:44:15 <pvanhoof> CM, systran is the most known software for translators I think
Oct 17 11:44:21 <CM> ok
Oct 17 11:44:22 <hrw> pvanhoof: in Poland we ave 19/30/40% tax
Oct 17 11:44:33 <pvanhoof> on profits?
Oct 17 11:44:45 <hrw> pvanhoof: yes
Oct 17 11:44:47 <Kliment> company tax is pretty heavy, yeah
Oct 17 11:44:57 <hrw> as company I have linear 19% tax
Oct 17 11:45:12 <CM> Sweden is around 33/56% depending on income
Oct 17 11:45:23 <cb22__> 56% tax? ouch
Oct 17 11:45:25 <CM> Don't know about company taxes
Oct 17 11:45:25 <Kliment> I am not sure what it is in germany
Oct 17 11:45:31 <hrw> CM: Sweden is socialist country
Oct 17 11:45:33 <Kliment> I've only been here two months
Oct 17 11:45:35 <pvanhoof> In Belgium it depends, but if you are a one-person company you basically pay all your profits to yourself automatically. And that means that the "personen belastingen" will be also something like that, but 16,30,40,50% I think (all over 16,000 euros is +50%)
Oct 17 11:45:56 <pvanhoof> if you are a Ltd. in Belgium, you pay yourself a salary, but the company pays taxes on the profits too
Oct 17 11:46:08 <Kliment> pvanhoof: unless they are reinvested
Oct 17 11:46:11 <pvanhoof> indeed
Oct 17 11:46:23 <pvanhoof> but a translator probably does not have a lot of things to invest in
Oct 17 11:46:26 <Kliment> the prime method of tax evasion, I've heard
Oct 17 11:46:29 <pvanhoof> just like a software developer (like me)
Oct 17 11:46:30 <CM> cb22: For your pay over 3000EUR per month you pay more and more tax, up to 56%
Oct 17 11:46:34 <Kliment> automatic dictionaries :)
Oct 17 11:46:37 <pvanhoof> we can buy laptops ...
Oct 17 11:46:40 <pvanhoof> yes, true
Oct 17 11:46:48 <cb22> that must suck
Oct 17 11:46:49 <Kliment> thus they are very expensive
Oct 17 11:46:49 <pvanhoof> but once that's payed for the next 5 years ..
Oct 17 11:46:55 <pvanhoof> exactly
Oct 17 11:47:03 <cb22> south africa's max is 40% AFAIK
Oct 17 11:47:09 <cb22> and for companies a lower, flat rate
Oct 17 11:47:13 <Kliment> pvanhoof: where in flandres are you?
Oct 17 11:47:14 <CM> cb22: Hehe.. You can't get rich working, it's just not possible
Oct 17 11:47:31 <pvanhoof> Kliment, the province of Antwerp, near Turnhout in a village called Oud-Turnhout
Oct 17 11:47:42 <Kliment> yeah, I know the area
Oct 17 11:47:48 <Kliment> never been there though
Oct 17 11:47:49 <pvanhoof> Oud is old dutch for Hout or wood, so it means Wood around turnhout
Oct 17 11:48:31 <pvanhoof> today "oud" is the dutch word for "old" , but our village's history records indicate that it meant wood when the name was given
Oct 17 11:48:42 <pvanhoof> :)
Oct 17 11:48:44 <Kliment> one of my favorite parts of europe, on both sides of the broder
Oct 17 11:48:48 <Kliment> border*
Oct 17 11:48:53 <cjb_ie> oud -> hout? - interesting
Oct 17 11:49:18 <pvanhoof> cjb_ie, yes, either it was a wood or a watchtower for protection. They're not sure about that
Oct 17 11:49:36 <Kliment> I wonder if oud-heusden is the same way
Oct 17 11:49:49 <pvanhoof> Depends on the age of the village I guess
Oct 17 11:50:04 <Kliment> it's around heusden, which is a very amusing town
Oct 17 11:50:09 <Kliment> lots of straight lines
Oct 17 11:50:12 <pvanhoof> It's for Turnhout not the case that the city Turnhout relocated from where Oud-Turnhout was to where Turnhout is now
Oct 17 11:50:21 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03thomas * r3205 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/data/ (gtkrc openmoko-calculator openmoko-dialer): * Add gtk-color-scheme support
Oct 17 11:50:54 <pvanhoof> And very few (if any) European city ever relocated. Most just grew like a spider's-web
Oct 17 11:51:08 <pvanhoof> cities
Oct 17 11:51:39 <Kliment> well, there have been cases of floods and fires where the rebuilding started from a different spot
Oct 17 11:51:50 <pvanhoof> aha, yes. that's indeed possible
Oct 17 11:51:52 <Kliment> and thus the entire city shifted
Oct 17 11:52:01 <Kliment> very often in NL :)
Oct 17 11:52:21 <pvanhoof> Well, we have the "Manenblussers" in Mechelen :)
Oct 17 11:52:25 <Kliment> in fact, heusden is an artificial hill
Oct 17 11:52:38 <Kliment> that's why it has all the straight lines
Oct 17 11:52:52 <pvanhoof> The story of that myth goes that the people in Mechelen thought their church was on fire, so they all started getting buckets of water
Oct 17 11:53:07 <pvanhoof> the problem was that it was just a bright moon 
Oct 17 11:53:41 <Kliment> pvanhoof: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=heusden,NL&ie=UTF8&ll=51.730112,5.140057&spn=0.021052,0.044289&t=h&z=15&om=1
Oct 17 11:54:08 <pvanhoof> that's not too far from Turnhout :)
Oct 17 11:54:13 <Kliment> nope
Oct 17 11:54:39 <Kliment> and of course there are many stories about the reasons why bierbeek near leuven is called that
Oct 17 11:54:50 <pvanhoof> Not far from the Efteling
Oct 17 11:55:18 <Kliment> I like the triangles
Oct 17 11:55:27 <CM> Kliment: Yes, cool place
Oct 17 11:55:37 <Kliment> ever been?
Oct 17 11:55:51 <pvanhoof> they did that for protection, right, the triangles?
Oct 17 11:55:58 <Kliment> supposedly
Oct 17 11:56:21 <Kliment> and they made their streets zigzagged so that invading armies would not be able to see from one end to the other
Oct 17 11:56:22 <CM> No, never to the Netherlands yet
Oct 17 11:56:30 <Kliment> and lots of secret passages across town
Oct 17 11:56:39 <pvanhoof> so they could put archers on those triangles
Oct 17 11:56:48 <Kliment> so you can get from place to place without getting out in the main streets
Oct 17 11:56:54 <Kliment> pvanhoof: archers and cannons
Oct 17 11:57:04 <Kliment> pvanhoof: the cannons are still there in some places
Oct 17 11:57:12 <pvanhoof> wow, they did it twice
Oct 17 11:57:34 <pvanhoof> Once for that "Oud Maasje" and once for the village/city itself
Oct 17 11:57:50 <Kliment> pvanhoof: ?
Oct 17 11:58:17 <Kliment> oh you mean the relocation?
Oct 17 11:58:24 <pvanhoof> Yes, so they have triangles (big ones) attached to the city
Oct 17 11:58:46 <pvanhoof> and another row of triangles 
Oct 17 11:58:50 <Kliment> yes
Oct 17 11:59:02 <pvanhoof> I haven't seen that often
Oct 17 11:59:08 <Kliment> it's pretty cool
Oct 17 11:59:12 <Kliment> go visit sometime
Oct 17 11:59:17 <Kliment> it's an hour's drive
Oct 17 11:59:18 <Kliment> or less
Oct 17 11:59:23 <pvanhoof> uhu, will do
Oct 17 11:59:35 <pvanhoof> When I need a destination to bike to
Oct 17 11:59:51 <Kliment> didn't stop the germans from killing everyone there though
Oct 17 12:00:08 <Kliment> I'd be interested in biking in that area
Oct 17 12:00:30 <pvanhoof> Yes well, the triangles were not calculated for the more modern weapons of WOII
Oct 17 12:01:27 <CM> Sucks having to sit out on one of those triangles too when the enemies attac
Oct 17 12:01:49 <Kliment> CM: they are pretty high for conventional weapons and they have a raised edge you can hide under
Oct 17 12:01:58 <Kliment> no good when the enemies have planes though
Oct 17 12:02:35 <CM> Kliment: Sure, but I don't want to sit there for days, or row back to the city wall
Oct 17 12:03:00 <Kliment> CM: they are very close to the town, and not too hard to access
Oct 17 12:03:06 <CM> Ok
Oct 17 12:03:08 <Kliment> CM: but a pain to get to from outside the town
Oct 17 12:03:17 <pvanhoof> Looks like a small town indeed
Oct 17 12:03:39 <pvanhoof> Looks like a nice place to live :)
Oct 17 12:03:46 <Kliment> pvanhoof: I'm in Köln myself but would be cool to take the Thalys to brussels sometime and then bike up
Oct 17 12:03:49 <pvanhoof> Peaceful etc etc, near some water
Oct 17 12:03:58 <Kliment> it's a wonderful place to live
Oct 17 12:04:01 <pvanhoof> sure
Oct 17 12:04:06 <Kliment> I know a family that got started there
Oct 17 12:04:26 <CM> I've recently realised I want to live in bigger cities..
Oct 17 12:04:49 <Kliment> they had both bought houses in the same street so they shared a backyard
Oct 17 12:05:02 <Kliment> and they got together after fighting about the mess in the backyard
Oct 17 12:05:24 <Kliment> now they live in haarsteeg, a bit closer to den bosch
Oct 17 12:05:24 <pvanhoof> :)
Oct 17 12:05:43 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03thomas * r3206 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/data/gtkrc: * Add a style for GtkScrollbar
Oct 17 12:07:20 <abraxa_> Kliment: lol... that is interesting
Oct 17 12:07:27 <abraxa_> First fighting, now loving?
Oct 17 12:07:35 <Kliment> one of the reasons I moved to germany was to be closer to that language area
Oct 17 12:07:41 <CM> abraxa_: Better than the other way around ;)
Oct 17 12:07:43 <Kliment> Flandres and NL
Oct 17 12:07:50 <abraxa_> CM: fo' sho
Oct 17 12:07:53 <Kliment> CM: indeed, much better
Oct 17 12:08:04 <CM> Kliment: Where are you from then? Finland?
Oct 17 12:08:17 <Kliment> I lived in Finland the past 10 years
Oct 17 12:08:23 <Kliment> I'm originally from Bulgaria
Oct 17 12:08:46 <CM> I would have guessed either of those, based on the languages you said you knew ;(
Oct 17 12:08:49 <CM> ;)
Oct 17 12:09:09 <cjb_ie> yeah, bulgarian and finnish is an unusual combination
Oct 17 12:10:38 <Kliment> finnish is a wonderful language
Oct 17 12:10:51 <Kliment> one of the simplest in europe
Oct 17 12:11:01 <CM> Kliment: I'm sorry, but I have to disagree..
Oct 17 12:11:10 <Kliment> it's hard to learn
Oct 17 12:11:21 <Kliment> but it's very simple compared to most european languages
Oct 17 12:11:23 <CM> I had a finnish girlfriend for almost 2 years and it was damn hard..
Oct 17 12:11:33 <Kliment> vocabulary is a pain
Oct 17 12:11:40 <Kliment> but grammar just makes sense
Oct 17 12:11:47 <Kliment> especially to a programmer it should
Oct 17 12:11:50 <CM> At least you pronounce everything the way it's spelled
Oct 17 12:11:55 <Kliment> there's that
Oct 17 12:12:01 <CM> Kliment: I think it's crazily overcomplicated
Oct 17 12:12:02 <abraxa_> CM: Just curious... did she speak Swedish then?
Oct 17 12:12:09 <CM> abraxa_: yes
Oct 17 12:12:10 <guaqua> no masculines and feminines
Oct 17 12:12:19 <Kliment> and also once you learn a grammatical rule, it applies the exact same way to any word you pick
Oct 17 12:12:20 <guaqua> just ~16 different cases and moduses ;)
Oct 17 12:12:32 <abraxa_> CM: Ahh, okay - was wondering how you two got together in the first place if you don't have a common language ;)
Oct 17 12:12:35 <Kliment> guaqua: indeed but they replace the roles of prepositions
Oct 17 12:12:44 <pvanhoof> I've been in Helsinki for two weeks ..
Oct 17 12:12:45 <guaqua> yep
Oct 17 12:12:50 <CM> abraxa_: Well, english works too ;)
Oct 17 12:12:59 <pvanhoof> Being a Sauna fan, I expected huge amounts of sauna's in Helsinki
Oct 17 12:13:05 <pvanhoof> Result, one public one
Oct 17 12:13:06 <abraxa_> CM: Yup, I know the feeling :)
Oct 17 12:13:06 <pvanhoof> :)
Oct 17 12:13:18 <guaqua> pvanhoof: swimming halls have public saunas
Oct 17 12:13:19 <pvanhoof> I guess all the sauna's are private ones in Lapland :)
Oct 17 12:13:21 <Kliment> I have a Belgian girlfriend, we speak English and I try to understand Flemish
Oct 17 12:13:30 <CM> pvanhoof: My gf had a sauna in her tiny studen apartment. Great! :D
Oct 17 12:13:34 <guaqua> but specific public saunas are rare
Oct 17 12:13:42 <pvanhoof> yep :(
Oct 17 12:13:45 <Kliment> pvanhoof: any swimming pool or sports center and most homes have them
Oct 17 12:13:50 <pvanhoof> In Belgium most people go to a public sauna centre
Oct 17 12:13:55 * CM is trying to pick up some tagalog
Oct 17 12:14:10 <pvanhoof> and, yes, they are mixed. and, yes, they are naked, and yes I know that sounds strange for Fins :)
Oct 17 12:14:31 <pvanhoof> and no we don't drink beer after each sauna :)
Oct 17 12:14:46 <guaqua> you heretics :>
Oct 17 12:14:59 <CM> pvanhoof: Only eat fries with mayo?
Oct 17 12:15:02 <Kliment> pvanhoof: why does it sound strange?
Oct 17 12:15:09 <Hadaka> pvanhoof: what? there's loads of public saunas in helsinki!
Oct 17 12:15:19 <Kliment> pvanhoof: other than the beer part, I don't think it very strange
Oct 17 12:15:42 <guaqua> public saunas are very rarely unisex
Oct 17 12:15:45 <CM> pvanhoof: I'd say it sounds strange to americans. They can't even shower after gym in school..
Oct 17 12:15:46 <Hadaka> pvanhoof: I bet you can find a public sauna in every block in kallio just about :)
Oct 17 12:15:46 <guaqua> in finland that is
Oct 17 12:15:47 <pvanhoof> CM, most sauna centers have a fine restaurant, yes (and you have to put-on your towel or bathrobe before eating)
Oct 17 12:15:52 <pvanhoof> Hadaka, I didn't find any :(
Oct 17 12:16:01 <CM> pvanhoof: Hehe.. Nice! I'd like it there
Oct 17 12:16:04 <Kliment> then again, finnish beer tastes rather bad on an international scale
Oct 17 12:16:05 <Hadaka> pvanhoof: I can recommend a few if you are still here
Oct 17 12:16:30 <Kliment> I was never really into saunas though
Oct 17 12:16:32 <Hadaka> Kliment: gods yeah, if you mean the common finnish beers
Oct 17 12:16:35 <pvanhoof> Hadaka, next time I visit the guys at nokia, I'll tell you :)
Oct 17 12:16:42 <Hadaka> pvanhoof: do that :)
Oct 17 12:16:57 <roh>  .oO(sounds like some people need to party with some hippies at a lake, to resync what it means (or also not means) to be naked) *ducks*
Oct 17 12:17:00 <Hadaka> pvanhoof: (and if you are serious about that, then naked@iki.fi is the way to reach me)
Oct 17 12:17:07 <pvanhoof> aha, ok. I am :)
Oct 17 12:17:20 <Kliment> fitting email
Oct 17 12:17:22 <Hadaka> pvanhoof: good :)
Oct 17 12:17:25 <abraxa_> haha
Oct 17 12:17:31 <pvanhoof> But other than that, Helsinki was a nice place
Oct 17 12:17:41 <Kliment> I didn't like it so much
Oct 17 12:17:44 <pvanhoof> Especially in the weekends when people start talking (and getting drunk)
Oct 17 12:17:48 <Kliment> but I guess I was bored after 10 years
Oct 17 12:18:03 <pvanhoof> yes, indeed. It might get a bit boring after ten years :)
Oct 17 12:18:33 <pvanhoof> For a capital city it's indeed rather small. But, I'm used to the Belgian cities of course
Oct 17 12:18:38 <Kliment> thus Keulen
Oct 17 12:18:47 <Kliment> it's enough big city for me
Oct 17 12:18:57 <pvanhoof> And, it's the entire area Espoo->Helsinki that is one big city I guess :)
Oct 17 12:19:05 <Kliment> espoo is not a city
Oct 17 12:19:27 <pvanhoof> I should have visited Espoo, I didn't (so I don't know)
Oct 17 12:19:34 <Kliment> it's a bunch of villages joined together by roads
Oct 17 12:19:40 <Kliment> and lots of forest in between
Oct 17 12:19:44 <pvanhoof> lovely
Oct 17 12:19:50 <Kliment> it's pretty, but not to live in
Oct 17 12:20:00 <Kliment> only sensible way of transport is by car
Oct 17 12:20:09 <pvanhoof> see, it's hard for a Belgian to imagine it being hard to live there :)
Oct 17 12:20:24 <pvanhoof> we have cities cities cities, villages, cities, no forest whatsoever
Oct 17 12:20:28 <Kliment> I know
Oct 17 12:20:34 <Kliment> it's the same in NL
Oct 17 12:20:37 <pvanhoof> indeed
Oct 17 12:20:45 <Kliment> too many people, too little space
Oct 17 12:20:49 * CM has forests and roads
Oct 17 12:20:56 <Kliment> I hear japan is like that too
Oct 17 12:20:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03thomas * r3207 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/data/gtkrc: 
Oct 17 12:20:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: * Improve menu style (as per suggestions from bug 903)
Oct 17 12:20:59 <CIA-23> openmoko: * Add a menubar style
Oct 17 12:21:09 <guaqua> espoo is horrible
Oct 17 12:21:19 <pvanhoof> yes and the roads in .be are always jammed by traffic, even the small ones :(
Oct 17 12:21:29 <guaqua> no use to visit the suburbia other than if you're going to the national park :)
Oct 17 12:21:29 <Kliment> CM: when you go north enough the roads get very bad and then there's only forests :)
Oct 17 12:21:50 <CM> My home town is the 5th biggest in sweden or so, and the closest town with more than 50.000 people is about 100km away
Oct 17 12:21:57 <Kliment> guaqua: the park is indeed nice, and of course there's bodom lake and the area around that too
Oct 17 12:22:15 <guaqua> yeah, but that's all i have to say about espoo. lived there for a year...horrible :S
Oct 17 12:22:21 <pvanhoof> cm, sounds awesome. If I travel 100KM, I can reach 80% of Belgium
Oct 17 12:22:26 <pvanhoof> me wanna live there!
Oct 17 12:22:38 <Kliment> pvanhoof: you say that until you try it
Oct 17 12:23:00 <CM> pvanhoof: In the summer it's awesome, but winters are dark..
Oct 17 12:23:03 <Kliment> pvanhoof: it's all idyllic and nice until you notice you have to travel tens of kms to meet any people you are comfortable talking with
Oct 17 12:23:09 <pvanhoof> yes yes, but I never saw the milky way in the dark sky, I never been in nowhere's land
Oct 17 12:23:12 <CM> about 2h of sun per day
Oct 17 12:23:37 <Kliment> pvanhoof: then go to bulgaria, the northeast area just north of the big tourist areas
Oct 17 12:23:43 <Kliment> pvanhoof: now that is an amazing sky view
Oct 17 12:24:01 <Kliment> never seen stars very well in finland
Oct 17 12:24:01 <pvanhoof> adding Bulgaria to my want-to-visit list
Oct 17 12:24:19 <Kliment> tends to bee too cloudy for that in winter
Oct 17 12:24:22 <pvanhoof> Never seen any stars in Belgium :(, well that's not exactly true
Oct 17 12:24:26 <Kliment> and in summer it never gets dark enough
Oct 17 12:24:30 <pvanhoof> but really, it's a poor sky-view here :(
Oct 17 12:24:31 <zash> .nz is on my want-to-move-to list
Oct 17 12:24:34 <CM> The tourist beaches of Bulgaria has quite a bad reputation now
Oct 17 12:24:42 <Kliment> belgium has lighted highways at night
Oct 17 12:24:47 <Kliment> CM: yeah, it's terrible
Oct 17 12:24:54 <CM> zash: Not australia?
Oct 17 12:24:57 <Kliment> CM: stay away from the tourist traps
Oct 17 12:24:57 <pvanhoof> Kliment, well they turn those off around 1 'O click nowadays
Oct 17 12:25:01 <pvanhoof> clock
Oct 17 12:25:11 <Kliment> pvanhoof: really? finally they got some sense in them
Oct 17 12:25:23 <cjb_ie> pvanhoof: bulgaria is absolutely horrible to drive in
Oct 17 12:25:29 <pvanhoof> Just the joins are lightened, so .. most of the high ways are indeed lightened :(
Oct 17 12:25:38 <Kliment> cjb_ie: that is also true, though the highways are ok now
Oct 17 12:25:47 <Kliment> cjb_ie: just stay away from any other roads
Oct 17 12:25:53 <cjb_ie> Kliment: i didn't mean the roads, so much as the drivers
Oct 17 12:26:02 <Kliment> cjb_ie: that's my point
Oct 17 12:26:26 <Kliment> cjb_ie: on the highways you can see them in time
Oct 17 12:26:26 <cjb_ie> you try getting from rila to bansko staying on the highways...
Oct 17 12:26:38 <cjb_ie> (yeah yeah, call me a tourist)
Oct 17 12:26:45 <Kliment> cjb_ie: rila is not bad
Oct 17 12:26:57 <Kliment> I went there often as a kid
Oct 17 12:27:23 <pvanhoof> I one day want to see the milky way in the dark sky :-(
Oct 17 12:27:24 <masterbrian> Hi :) I've a lamer question. After compiling all openmoko with makefile, How I can start it using qemu?
Oct 17 12:27:43 <pvanhoof> fscking belgian dark-sky :(
Oct 17 12:28:00 <Kliment> pvanhoof: the problem is too much light, not too much darkness
Oct 17 12:28:06 <pvanhoof> yes indeed
Oct 17 12:28:12 <Kliment> pvanhoof: belgium is known for its terrible light conditions
Oct 17 12:28:23 <pvanhoof> yep :(
Oct 17 12:28:39 <pvanhoof> We can literally see the city (Turnhout) glow in the night
Oct 17 12:28:39 <roh> Kliment it is,? its sunny here in berlin.. shouldnt you just be one timezone apart?
Oct 17 12:28:47 <pvanhoof> all of the Belgian cities
Oct 17 12:28:52 <CM> masterbrian: make run-qemu?
Oct 17 12:29:05 <pvanhoof> you can actually locate them just by looking at the sky, in the night
Oct 17 12:29:10 <Kliment> roh: ja, aber belgium has lights on the highways at night
Oct 17 12:29:14 <masterbrian> @CM it is not for compiling qemu that command?
Oct 17 12:29:24 <roh> masterbrian make build-qemu && make run-qemu
Oct 17 12:29:29 <CM> pvanhoof: Have you seriously never seen the milky way? I'm so used to it I've never even thought about not seeing it unless it's cloudy
Oct 17 12:29:39 <pvanhoof> CM, never seen it
Oct 17 12:29:44 <pvanhoof> Only on pictures
Oct 17 12:29:53 <CM> masterbrian: No, it starts qemu with the om image :)
Oct 17 12:29:59 <pvanhoof> I think the amount of stars that we see, you can count them on two hands
Oct 17 12:30:01 <Kliment> masterbrian: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU
Oct 17 12:30:02 <cjb_ie> Kliment: well, the road surface is okay - but a few interesting S-bends for overtaking on
Oct 17 12:30:16 <pvanhoof> If you are in a dark spot
Oct 17 12:30:25 <pvanhoof> In the city, in a clear sky, you can see two or three stars
Oct 17 12:30:47 <Kliment> in Leuven I can't see a thing at night
Oct 17 12:30:50 <masterbrian> thank you :)
Oct 17 12:30:54 <CM> pvanhoof: When it's really clear outside, and you're a bit away from town, the milky way is really quite white
Oct 17 12:31:09 <pvanhoof> You're making me jealous :(
Oct 17 12:31:22 <SpeedEvil> Kliment: you usuaully can - if you know where the stars are you can pick them out even in the most badly light-polluted places. (stuff like the negative magnitude ones)
Oct 17 12:31:40 <SpeedEvil> When it's clear here, I can see the milky way.
Oct 17 12:31:52 <ScaredyCat> *blink*
Oct 17 12:31:53 <Kliment> SpeedEvil: yeah, those, but it's dramatically different in a dark area
Oct 17 12:32:13 <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
Oct 17 12:32:21 <pvanhoof> CM, For a long time I even believed they "calculated" somehow that there's this thing called a milky way, not that people could actually "see" it
Oct 17 12:32:42 <CM> Being in the mountains in northen sweden around christmas it's truly dark when the moon is not up
Oct 17 12:32:42 <pvanhoof> Until I started seeing pictures online of it
Oct 17 12:32:54 <CM> And usually very clear since the air is so cold
Oct 17 12:33:16 <Kliment> CM: ah yes in the north it's a different story
Oct 17 12:33:27 <pvanhoof> Yes, I wanted to travel to Sweden this year. But Tinne wanted to go to Scotland. so we ended up disagreeing
Oct 17 12:33:32 <pvanhoof> and in the end we didn't go
Oct 17 12:33:36 <CM> My home town is 62 degrees north
Oct 17 12:34:05 <guaqua> CM: umeå?
Oct 17 12:34:19 <CM> guaqua: Yes
Oct 17 12:34:21 <pvanhoof> so, there's hotels in your town CM? 
Oct 17 12:34:23 <CM> :)
Oct 17 12:34:23 <roh> CoreDump favicon on planet is fixed now
Oct 17 12:34:24 <pvanhoof> are
Oct 17 12:34:25 <guaqua> i'm originally from oulu (uleåborg) :)
Oct 17 12:34:34 <Kliment> I don't believe in hotels
Oct 17 12:34:41 <Kliment> wherever I go, I stay with friends
Oct 17 12:34:50 <pvanhoof> Yes, or friends where I can stay :)
Oct 17 12:35:11 <pvanhoof> And mountains to walk for in case we do get bored of watching the sky all night long? (sounds unlikely)
Oct 17 12:35:14 <CM> pvanhoof: Sure, it has 111.000 inabitants or so
Oct 17 12:35:26 <pvanhoof> oh it's a quite large city then?
Oct 17 12:35:30 * SpeedEvil is at http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=56.2167468619436&lon=-3.1043227915598477&zoom=13&layers=B0F - moderately rural.
Oct 17 12:35:32 <Kliment> well, I am a member of hospitalityclub, bewelcome and couchsurfing, not too many places where I can't go :)
Oct 17 12:35:37 <J-23> Hello!
Oct 17 12:35:37 <CM> But you probably want to go even further north if you want to be in the middle of nowhere
Oct 17 12:35:52 <zash> CM: duno how australia is
Oct 17 12:36:15 <CM> zash: It's not at all as far south as sweden is north
Oct 17 12:36:27 <Kliment> I have a friend in Torvinen, 30km outside Sodankylä
Oct 17 12:36:37 <Kliment> That's about as middle of nowhere as it gets
Oct 17 12:36:40 <Kliment> wonderful place
Oct 17 12:36:46 <Kliment> absolutely silent and dark at night
Oct 17 12:36:50 <guaqua> it's pretty much out in the back
Oct 17 12:36:52 <CM> pvanhoof: If you go in the winter you could visit Jukkasjärvi. ;)
Oct 17 12:37:03 <CM> They have a hotel made from ice
Oct 17 12:37:08 <pvanhoof> can you do skiing?
Oct 17 12:37:12 * J-23 tries to start OpenMoko on QEMU on Kubuntu LiveCD
Oct 17 12:37:12 <Kliment> yes
Oct 17 12:37:16 <pvanhoof> awesome!
Oct 17 12:37:24 <CM> Sure, many good slopes
Oct 17 12:37:25 <Kliment> J-23: is it working?
Oct 17 12:37:33 <pvanhoof> skiing is a reason my itself to go :)
Oct 17 12:37:35 <zash> J-23: holy slowness of doom?
Oct 17 12:37:38 <pvanhoof> s/my/by
Oct 17 12:37:52 <Kliment> I am not a fan of skiing, ever since I broke my leg doing that
Oct 17 12:37:54 <J-23> flash.sh returns errors, download.sh downloads index.html.X
Oct 17 12:38:03 <pvanhoof> wow, milky way in the night and skiing during the day, why did I ever go to France for this?!
Oct 17 12:38:16 <CM> Kliment: Same here, bent my knee so I had my toes on my waist..
Oct 17 12:38:24 <Kliment> pvanhoof: wait, what night, what day
Oct 17 12:38:30 <Kliment> pvanhoof: you only get to pick one of those
Oct 17 12:38:39 <pvanhoof> oh yes, it's Sweden. Night all the time
Oct 17 12:38:46 <Kliment> pvanhoof: or worse, day all the time
Oct 17 12:38:52 <Kliment> pvanhoof: try sleeping in that
Oct 17 12:38:55 <abraxa_> CM: That does sound extremely painful.
Oct 17 12:39:03 <zash> night all the time?
Oct 17 12:39:07 <guaqua> you get used to the light...and you also don
Oct 17 12:39:15 <guaqua> don't have to sleep as much with that much light :)
Oct 17 12:39:15 <CM> zash: Winter in the night..
Oct 17 12:39:20 <pvanhoof> I was in Helsinki this summer, where it was night for just a few minutes (they where celebrating this special day)
Oct 17 12:39:30 <Kliment> pvanhoof: midsummer?
Oct 17 12:39:33 <pvanhoof> Yes
Oct 17 12:39:36 <Kliment> pvanhoof: it's a long tradition
Oct 17 12:39:49 <CM> abraxa_: Also, no one had a cellphone and we were way above the slopes, so I had to ski down on one leg..
Oct 17 12:40:03 <CM> pvanhoof: What about northen lights?
Oct 17 12:40:11 <CM> I like those more than the milkyway :)
Oct 17 12:40:26 <pvanhoof> ok, Sweden is my next travel destination
Oct 17 12:40:27 <SpeedEvil> Not that often visible at 56N
Oct 17 12:40:34 <abraxa_> CM: I know why I don't ski either ;)
Oct 17 12:40:38 <SpeedEvil> At least not unless you're in very dark usual skies.
Oct 17 12:40:47 <Kliment> pvanhoof: people traditionally jump over fires, and then go swimming in lakes drunk and drown
Oct 17 12:40:55 <CM> SpeedEvil: True. Miss that about being here in the south of sweden
Oct 17 12:41:03 <Kliment> pvanhoof: midsummer is a consistent record in drowning deaths, every year
Oct 17 12:41:12 <pvanhoof> I see :)
Oct 17 12:41:32 <pvanhoof> strange fins. But, nice people :)
Oct 17 12:41:37 <J-23> Hmm... I don't have Lynx...
Oct 17 12:41:48 <guaqua> many die their pants open, every midsummer :)
Oct 17 12:41:56 <zash> J-23: sudo aptitude install lynx
Oct 17 12:41:57 <Kliment> yeah, there's also that
Oct 17 12:41:57 <zash> :D
Oct 17 12:42:07 <guaqua> (from taking a piss from a small boat)
Oct 17 12:42:07 <Kliment> pissing over the side of the boat and falling in
Oct 17 12:42:11 <guaqua> yes
Oct 17 12:42:18 <pvanhoof> haha
Oct 17 12:42:28 <guaqua> it ain't no joke really :S
Oct 17 12:42:35 <zash> J-23: otoh, wont work that well on a live-cd
Oct 17 12:42:44 <Kliment> when it starts happening to your friends it quickly stops being funny
Oct 17 12:42:50 <guaqua> yes :)
Oct 17 12:42:56 <pvanhoof> Most Belgians survive days like Newyear :)
Oct 17 12:43:11 <pvanhoof> We usually die in traffic on such occasions
Oct 17 12:43:23 <Kliment> drunk driving is not so serious in finland
Oct 17 12:43:28 <Kliment> not enough cars
Oct 17 12:43:35 <pvanhoof> it's quite serious in .be :)
Oct 17 12:43:40 <CM> Kliment: Or too drunk to even get to the car
Oct 17 12:43:40 <Kliment> I've seen
Oct 17 12:43:45 <pvanhoof> And the penalty is already very high
Oct 17 12:43:53 <Kliment> the penalty is death
Oct 17 12:43:53 <pvanhoof> You for example immediately loose your divers license
Oct 17 12:43:57 <Kliment> still doesn't stop people
Oct 17 12:44:28 <pvanhoof> but increasingly lots of people drive without insurance nor drivers license
Oct 17 12:44:37 <Kliment> yeah
Oct 17 12:44:39 <pvanhoof> because insurance is getting crazy expensive for some people in belgium
Oct 17 12:44:43 <Kliment> it's the same in bulgaria
Oct 17 12:44:47 <guaqua> Kliment: drunk driving is a problem
Oct 17 12:44:53 <guaqua> especially in smaller places
Oct 17 12:45:03 <Kliment> guaqua: not so much in finland compared to most of europe
Oct 17 12:45:09 <abraxa_> Kliment: Here in Germany, it doesn't stop people either, especially <25 year-olds. But hey, what's the risk of dying compared to scoring with some chick in your car?
Oct 17 12:45:46 <pvanhoof> and then you have the Belgian drivers who drive like Germans on our broken highways, abraxa_ :)
Oct 17 12:45:50 <Kliment> abraxa_: I know, I once got a ride in a porsche on the autobahn
Oct 17 12:46:16 <pvanhoof> Usually, people with German license plates who drive in Belgium, drive slower than most other Belgians :)
Oct 17 12:46:19 <Kliment> abraxa_: and some people were trying to overtake at 280
Oct 17 12:46:41 <pvanhoof> uhm, overtaking the wheel at 280?!
Oct 17 12:46:49 <pvanhoof> that's sick
Oct 17 12:46:55 <hrw> http://blog.haerwu.biz/2007/10/17/someone-know-how-to-re-enable-serial-ata-port/
Oct 17 12:47:01 * roh is glad not to have a license...
Oct 17 12:47:11 <Kliment> roh: I don't have one either
Oct 17 12:47:12 <abraxa_> Kliment: To be brutally honest, people who try to overtake at such speeds must have character issues. Seeing them kiss the side of the road might actually do society a favor.
Oct 17 12:47:15 <roh> its much more fun to let people drive...
Oct 17 12:47:27 <Kliment> roh: never needed one in Köln
Oct 17 12:47:46 <J-23> It works! :)
Oct 17 12:48:01 <Kliment> hrw: you can try playing around with hdparm
Oct 17 12:48:11 <hrw> Kliment: hdparm require /dev/ entry
Oct 17 12:48:25 <Kliment> well, that's all I can think of
Oct 17 12:48:32 <Kliment> disconnect/reconnect cable?
Oct 17 12:49:04 <hrw> Kliment: easier is power off/on then messing wit cables
Oct 17 12:49:10 <pvanhoof> Somebody should ask google to flyover sweden
Oct 17 12:49:20 <Kliment> pvanhoof: it's pretty expensive
Oct 17 12:49:21 <CM> roh: It's good to have a license, but I prefer not to drive unless I really have to
Oct 17 12:49:30 * CM bikes to work
Oct 17 12:49:42 <Kliment> I bike to work unless it rains, then I take the tram
Oct 17 12:49:54 <CM> pvanhoof: Yes, google earth is really bad over sweden.
Oct 17 12:50:02 <pvanhoof> finding some food, bbl 
Oct 17 12:50:28 <roh> CM i bike too.. but i own a pedelec ;)
Oct 17 12:50:39 <CM> Oh, what's that?
Oct 17 12:51:23 <ww> roh!
Oct 17 12:51:41 <roh> hey ww
Oct 17 12:51:52 <ww> wie geht's?
Oct 17 12:52:04 <CM> pvanhoof: Try this instead: http://kartor.eniro.se/query?&what=map&mop=yp&imgmode=2&mapstate=1%3B17.73517591932137%3B62.51698038876889%3B0%3B-4.204463164815582%3B74.32894043196544%3B39.67481500345832%3B50.70502034557235%3B626%3B636&mapcomp=%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B0%3B0%3B%3B%3B%3B0&stq=0
Oct 17 12:52:14 <roh> ww pretty well...  i think i'll visit cbase this evening... you'll be there?
Oct 17 12:52:21 * CM is sorry for that rediculously long url
Oct 17 12:52:27 <ww> i was just going to ask...
Oct 17 12:52:42 <ww> any chace you can bring debug board? ;)
Oct 17 12:53:25 <ww> CM: tinyurl.com?
Oct 17 12:53:35 <roh> CM a bike with a electric motor which still counts as bike, thus no license, no insurance etc
Oct 17 12:53:37 <zash> http://kartor.eniro.se
Oct 17 12:53:39 <roh> CM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CyclePat%5Cpedelec
Oct 17 12:53:54 <roh> ww jap, ive got my debugboard with me most of the time.
Oct 17 12:53:59 <CM> roh: Was just looking on wikipedia for it :)
Oct 17 12:54:18 <ww> roh: lekker!
Oct 17 12:54:38 <CM> roh: I tried one of those around 10 years ago, was quite nice :)
Oct 17 12:55:15 * ww ist jeztz weg afk masala dosa suchen... 
Oct 17 12:55:53 <masterbrian> I feel I'm near the end of all of this :) I'm getting error while trying to make run-qemu
Oct 17 12:55:56 <zash> CM: lantmäteriet har rätt högupplösta flygfoton åxå
Oct 17 12:56:17 <masterbrian> what does mean "/bin/sh: /sbin/mkdosfs: No such file or directory" ?
Oct 17 12:56:25 <masterbrian> while running make run-qemu?
Oct 17 12:56:30 <CM> zash: Jo, har en kompis som gjorde sitt exjobb i Umeå med att koppla dem till gps-koordinater :)
Oct 17 12:58:39 <masterbrian> found, the problem was about the host missing mkdosfs
Oct 17 13:01:34 <cjb_ie> zash, CM: ni låter som OSMare
Oct 17 13:02:21 <zash> define:OSMare
Oct 17 13:02:28 <cjb_ie> zash: www.openstreetmap.org
Oct 17 13:03:49 <CM> cjb_ie: Do you speak swedish? Where are you from?
Oct 17 13:04:17 <CM> I'm interested in osm and gps stuff, but my neo doesn't have a working gps... :P
Oct 17 13:04:25 * cjb_ie är halv holländsk och halv finsk, men bor i irland.
Oct 17 13:07:46 <CM> cjb_ie: Oh, mighty combination :D
Oct 17 13:08:47 <cjb_ie> CM: it's good for confusing people.
Oct 17 13:09:28 <zash> haha
Oct 17 13:09:29 <CM> genau ;)
Oct 17 13:09:34 <Kliment> it's like when people ask me where I'm from
Oct 17 13:09:44 <Kliment> lostgeek: you're in Köln?
Oct 17 13:09:57 <lostgeek> yeah
Oct 17 13:10:01 <cjb_ie> Kliment: "well, what do you mean by 'from'? and do you want the long or the short version?"
Oct 17 13:10:17 <Kliment> cjb_ie: exactly
Oct 17 13:10:38 <Kliment> lostgeek: I just moved here last month
Oct 17 13:11:29 <cjb_ie> "well, i'm half dutch..." "so, do you speak dutch then?" "a little, but my swedish is better." "so the other half is swedish?" "no, finnish" "huh?"
Oct 17 13:11:31 <ewon> shiny: http://www.engadget.com/gallery/nokias-n810-makes-first-appearance-drops-jaws-hi-res/443404/
Oct 17 13:12:07 <CM> ewon: oohh..
Oct 17 13:15:11 <abraxa_> I like the design and features, except I want it silver/black and without cam ;)
Oct 17 13:15:20 <Kliment> not bad, but it's not a phone
Oct 17 13:15:48 <CM> But I guess gps?
Oct 17 13:16:03 <Fatal> previous models used external bt gps
Oct 17 13:16:08 * abraxa_ wonders why there's a square area around Washington
Oct 17 13:16:16 <CM> I wonder why they refuse so stubbornly to not have gsm or umts in it
Oct 17 13:16:26 * CM gets some coffee instead
Oct 17 13:16:37 <zash> coffee!
Oct 17 13:17:52 <Kliment> CM: because they haven't sold enough N95s yet
Oct 17 13:22:29 <masterbrian> it is normal that qemu takes several minutes to start openmoko image?
Oct 17 13:22:48 <zash> ja
Oct 17 13:22:59 <zash> s/ja/yes
Oct 17 13:23:01 <Plasma_GR> Where can I get information about the current available applications in OM?
Oct 17 13:23:09 <masterbrian> it is not really usable :/ it is too slow 
Oct 17 13:23:38 <masterbrian> I hope that on neo1973 it run faster!
Oct 17 13:24:05 <zash> not emulating another cpu-type helps
Oct 17 13:24:49 <masterbrian> I hope so... and maybe a better qemu would be good :)
Oct 17 13:31:04 <abraxa_> Plasma_GR: What kind of information are you looking for?
Oct 17 13:31:13 <Elessar_81> @masterbrian: does it work with qemu at your maschien. I got problems to get it running
Oct 17 13:32:00 <masterbrian> Elessar: it is not simple to make it run... I've spent a lot of time for having a working image
Oct 17 13:33:26 <Elessar_81> I tried it with the ubunut walktrough from the wiki and get the same error as described at the end of this article
Oct 17 13:34:37 <Plasma_GR> I want to see how complete is the platform as a whole, I know you would suggest me to run it in qemu but this is a hassle because I just want to know what apps are complete or just basica functioning
Oct 17 13:39:27 <abraxa_> Plasma_GR: The applications you can see in SVN (http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/) have basic features working, however the underlying libraries are focus of attention at the moment as they're not complete/stable enough yet
Oct 17 13:39:46 <SpeedEvil> And stuff often breaks.
Oct 17 13:40:10 <SpeedEvil> With functionality varying over time as stuff underneath it gets patched.
Oct 17 13:42:02 <abraxa_> Hallo Wolfgang
Oct 17 13:42:27 <wolfgang_spraul> abraxa_: hi
Oct 17 13:42:51 <abraxa_> Glad to see new faces appearing :)
Oct 17 13:43:01 <wolfgang_spraul> sure
Oct 17 13:43:01 <CM> masterbrian: I have a 3000+ amd64 and running openmoko in qemu is much slower than on my gta01
Oct 17 13:43:12 <wolfgang_spraul> abraxa_: where are you located?
Oct 17 13:44:09 <abraxa_> Frankfurt/M most of the time
Oct 17 13:44:20 <LittleIdiot> are there any news concerning the gta01's firmware update? (bug #666) in other words: is there any progress made by ti or do i have to sign an nda before i can use the software and the new firmware for the gsm modem?
Oct 17 13:44:44 <SpeedEvil> Slight progress.
Oct 17 13:44:55 <SpeedEvil> It's been confirmed that a fix could be distributed.
Oct 17 13:45:08 <SpeedEvil> Tehre are still licensing concerns on the firmware flasher tool.
Oct 17 13:45:13 <SpeedEvil> There is however no fix.
Oct 17 13:45:17 <SpeedEvil> (yet)
Oct 17 13:45:24 <abraxa_> wolfgang_spraul: I take it you're part of the software team? :)
Oct 17 13:45:44 <wolfgang_spraul> abraxa_: which software team? you mean the OpenMoko software team?
Oct 17 13:45:49 <abraxa_> Yup
Oct 17 13:45:51 <cb22> * wolfgang_spraul (n=wolfgang@office.tw.openmoko.org) has joined #openmoko
Oct 17 13:45:59 <LittleIdiot> hmmkay... 
Oct 17 13:46:01 <wolfgang_spraul> oh, I see
Oct 17 13:46:05 <wolfgang_spraul> I guess I'm little idiot here...
Oct 17 13:46:06 <wolfgang_spraul> :-)
Oct 17 13:46:11 <abraxa_> heh
Oct 17 13:46:21 <wolfgang_spraul> didn't know about this n=... stuff
Oct 17 13:46:36 <wolfgang_spraul> yes, correct, I work for OpenMoko on the software side
Oct 17 13:46:38 <wolfgang_spraul> lots of work...
Oct 17 13:46:49 <abraxa_> Ohh, awesome!
Oct 17 13:47:07 <SpeedEvil> wolfgang_spraul: what are you concentrating on? Or are you more at the 'run away screaming' stage of project managment.
Oct 17 13:47:23 <mbuf> wolfgang_spraul, do you know if OM is recruiting for more developers?
Oct 17 13:47:31 <wolfgang_spraul> SpeedEvil: what do you mean with 'run away screaming' stage?
Oct 17 13:47:51 <SpeedEvil> wolfgang_spraul: where you look at the pile of work and don't know where to start.
Oct 17 13:48:29 <wolfgang_spraul> mbuf: not at the moment, I think.
Oct 17 13:48:37 <mbuf> wolfgang_spraul, ok
Oct 17 13:48:39 <wolfgang_spraul> SpeedEvil: I'm past that.
Oct 17 13:49:06 <CM> wolfgang_spraul: We're all waiting here for more news and gossip.. ;)
Oct 17 13:49:18 <wolfgang_spraul> not from me
Oct 17 13:49:22 <CM> :(
Oct 17 13:49:38 <wolfgang_spraul> I will try to stay here in the #openmoko channel though, maybe over time more people show up.
Oct 17 13:49:46 <CM> Well, mickyl usually lets us know what he's allowed to say :)
Oct 17 13:49:53 <SpeedEvil> wolfgang_spraul: do you have an idea what you'll be working on, and can you share that?
Oct 17 13:50:19 <wolfgang_spraul> SpeedEvil: not yet defined
Oct 17 13:50:27 <SpeedEvil> Fair enough.
Oct 17 13:50:39 <SpeedEvil> There is a fair amount of choice.
Oct 17 13:51:00 <CM> SpeedEvil: Hehe.. For sure :)
Oct 17 13:51:09 <wolfgang_spraul> raster: hi :-)
Oct 17 13:51:13 <SpeedEvil> Is anything actually in a releasable condition?
Oct 17 13:51:24 <SpeedEvil> I suppose that u-boot is close.
Oct 17 13:52:01 <wolfgang_spraul> raster: thanks for reminding me of #openmoko, I'll try to have most conversations in here, unless someone convinces me I'm a loose cannon...
Oct 17 13:52:31 <Kliment> wolfgang_spraul: the community greatly appreciates :)
Oct 17 13:52:36 <CM> wolfgang_spraul: Trust us, we won't spread any secrets.. ;)
Oct 17 13:52:45 <wolfgang_spraul> I bet.
Oct 17 13:53:04 * CM is ready to edit the wiki at an instant. :D
Oct 17 13:53:17 <cb22> and i bet everyone who reads the wiki will keep it a secret too :)
Oct 17 13:53:20 <SpeedEvil> CM: Go for it!
Oct 17 13:53:32 <SpeedEvil> CM: there are only several thousand pages that could do with updating.
Oct 17 13:53:59 <jorgenpt> Haha
Oct 17 13:54:31 <CM> SpeedEvil: True.. I'd like to improve the usb networking part in regards to gentoo, but there's so much more to do. Redundant text too, and some things that are plain wrong. 
Oct 17 13:54:47 <ozarka> Did anyone see this article about the gPhone developer preview?
Oct 17 13:54:53 <ozarka> http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/10/15/chinese-whispers-50000-gphones-shipping-out/
Oct 17 13:55:07 <raster> wolfgang_spraul: :):)
Oct 17 13:55:11 <ozarka> Supposedly they'll be shipping 50,000 phones for developers only.
Oct 17 13:55:26 <ozarka> I wonder if we'll be able to make calls with them?  :-)
Oct 17 13:55:31 <SpeedEvil> Sounds unlikely.
Oct 17 13:55:31 <raster> wolfgang_spraul: see - instant-minions. just add water!
Oct 17 13:55:34 <raster> :)
Oct 17 13:55:42 <SpeedEvil> Unless it's internal to google only.
Oct 17 13:56:04 <ozarka> Does Google have 50k employees?
Oct 17 13:56:08 <SpeedEvil> Dunno.
Oct 17 13:57:00 <jorgenpt> raster: haha ;)
Oct 17 13:57:13 * jorgenpt worships at the altar of Openmoko
Oct 17 13:57:25 * jorgenpt shoves his Qtopia-enabled FIC-phone under the carpet and coughs
Oct 17 13:57:47 <ozarka> Clearly they don't understand the value in scarcity.
Oct 17 13:58:22 <ozarka> gPhone will be all over the valley, but ozarka will still be the only one in his city with an orange Neo
Oct 17 13:58:39 * ozarka evil laughter
Oct 17 13:58:59 <jorgenpt> Congratulations. ;-)
Oct 17 13:59:06 <mmazur> orange Neo? That's sad :)
Oct 17 13:59:08 <raster> aaah
Oct 17 13:59:09 <Kliment> any specs on this gphone thing anywhere?
Oct 17 13:59:14 <raster> but will the gphone be hackable?
Oct 17 13:59:28 <abraxa_> ozarka: Does the white/orange actually blend in with the current color scheme (grey/orange/black)?
Oct 17 13:59:39 <ozarka> mmazur:  Your jealous is transparent, and frankly a little embarassing.
Oct 17 13:59:50 <ozarka> I don't think the white/orange blends with anything.  :-)
Oct 17 13:59:58 <abraxa_> rofl
Oct 17 13:59:59 <ozarka> But there's no way you're going to lose the phone.
Oct 17 14:00:18 <mmazur> :)
Oct 17 14:00:20 <ozarka> Unless you mistake it for an ice cream bar.
Oct 17 14:00:21 <abraxa_> I'm not sure that's the kind of statement OpenMoko folks want to make ;)
Oct 17 14:00:27 <guaqua> :D
Oct 17 14:00:38 <Plasma_GR> lmao
Oct 17 14:00:40 <guaqua> "the next generation business phone"
Oct 17 14:01:19 <ozarka> Maybe the gPhone will ship in Mauve and Teal.
Oct 17 14:01:35 <Kliment> I lost mine in a dark room in a hurry while trying to catch a bus
Oct 17 14:01:43 <Kliment> my girlfriend has it now
Oct 17 14:01:56 <zash> there is no gphone!
Oct 17 14:02:38 <Plasma_GR> will they after the GTA02 make available some hot pink housings for neo?
Oct 17 14:03:12 <Kliment> I think someone else will first
Oct 17 14:03:16 <abraxa_> Plasma_GR: There definitely will be Hello Kitty ones.
Oct 17 14:03:19 <Kliment> like with the wii
Oct 17 14:03:32 <Kliment> they only ever released in white, though they demoed many colors
Oct 17 14:03:42 <Plasma_GR> lmao
Oct 17 14:03:56 <Kliment> but now they have a ton of wiimote covers with any pattern you can imagine
Oct 17 14:04:37 <meldianen> Hi !
Oct 17 14:04:47 <Plasma_GR> in the wiki i read they will be spare housings and spare stuff sold in the online shop so anyone can buy some hundreds of these and print their own logo and resell them for 5 bucks more
Oct 17 14:05:27 <abraxa_> Any GTK specialists around?
Oct 17 14:05:42 <Plasma_GR> I want to see google inc selling neo housings with a huge logo "gPhone" and the moto: "You freed it, we get money from it"
Oct 17 14:06:31 <Plasma_GR> Or maybe buy 100% of FIC and own the project
Oct 17 14:06:46 <Kliment> uhm, FIC isn't as small as you make it sound
Oct 17 14:07:02 <Plasma_GR> neither google is :)
Oct 17 14:07:45 <Kliment> of course not, but I don't think they could easily afford to buy FIC
Oct 17 14:07:48 <Kliment> or want to
Oct 17 14:08:03 <CM> FIC have around 10 times as many employees I guess..
Oct 17 14:08:11 <Kliment> of course, Openmoko is a much smaller company
Oct 17 14:08:24 <Plasma_GR> dont worry i'm just making fun of it
Oct 17 14:08:34 <Plasma_GR> i would never believe such a thing
Oct 17 14:08:45 <Plasma_GR> but... who knows!?
Oct 17 14:08:57 <Kliment> however, having another os on the neo can only be a good thing
Oct 17 14:09:48 <CM> I'd suspect that google want something looking more slick and iphone like, or maybe with a keyboard.
Oct 17 14:10:09 <CM> And I thought it was obvious that it's a distro kind of thing, no physical phone
Oct 17 14:10:44 <Plasma_GR> Unconfirmed sources say that it will be just a plain phone with some basic stuff and based on OE linux
Oct 17 14:11:03 <CM> I doubt it's oe
Oct 17 14:11:32 <Plasma_GR> What else can be used then?
Oct 17 14:11:37 <guaqua> the hardware doesn't have to be spectacular for the phone to be really good
Oct 17 14:11:51 <guaqua> as long as it's not really old and limited, it's fine
Oct 17 14:11:55 <meldianen> Hi there !
Oct 17 14:12:02 <guaqua> the software stack is the deal
Oct 17 14:12:09 <CM> guaqua: As long as there's drivers
Oct 17 14:12:16 <guaqua> CM: yep
Oct 17 14:12:22 <raster> it's OE
Oct 17 14:12:32 <CM> raster: Oh? Nice :)
Oct 17 14:12:42 <guaqua> when i look at the phones we use now, the hardware isn't really used, it just sits there
Oct 17 14:13:02 <meldianen> Does someone know the date of the offical public release of openmoko ?
Oct 17 14:13:06 <guaqua> 3g connection in my nokia with a crappy browser and software...no use of it
Oct 17 14:13:38 <CM> meldianen: The phone (Neo1973) or the software stack (OpenMoko)?
Oct 17 14:13:50 <Plasma_GR> thats an interesting question tho
Oct 17 14:13:55 <ozarka> If the gPhone is a distro type of thing, why do they need 50,000 (!) phones?
Oct 17 14:14:09 <guaqua> ozarka: for the developers :)
Oct 17 14:14:22 <CM> Any phone beats qemu ;)
Oct 17 14:14:26 <ozarka> I wonder why they haven't called me yet?
Oct 17 14:14:32 <guaqua> :D
Oct 17 14:14:32 <meldianen> Plasma_GR, the phone
Oct 17 14:14:40 <ozarka> Is there a #gphone on this server?
Oct 17 14:14:41 <CM> I'm just saying that Google has never been a hardware company
Oct 17 14:14:57 <Plasma_GR> #gphone That channel doesn't exist
Oct 17 14:14:59 <Plasma_GR> nah :)
Oct 17 14:15:23 <ozarka> CM: I agree.  The article talks about partnerships with HTC and LG.
Oct 17 14:16:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 945 has been created by koen(AT)openembedded.org
Oct 17 14:16:01 <cdbot2> * * moko-gtk-engine throws errors
Oct 17 14:16:01 <Plasma_GR> meldianen the next release of the phone will be at december 25 (just like the topic says) but who knows... anything can go wrong
Oct 17 14:16:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=945
Oct 17 14:16:19 <meldianen> Plasma_GR, ty
Oct 17 14:16:38 <meldianen> Plasma_GR, just for X-mas
Oct 17 14:16:57 <Plasma_GR> thats right
Oct 17 14:17:01 <CM> But that's the developwer version I take it, not for regular consumers
Oct 17 14:17:09 <meldianen> Plasma_GR, it will be a nice gift for a linux newbie like me !
Oct 17 14:17:39 <meldianen> CM, sure it why I'm waiting for the public release
Oct 17 14:17:53 <CM> :)
Oct 17 14:18:25 <meldianen> i was told about that project by a collegue of mine, hard defensor of the Open Source
Oct 17 14:18:34 <meldianen> linux bless him !
Oct 17 14:19:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 946 has been created by koen(AT)openembedded.org
Oct 17 14:19:01 <cdbot2> * * Scrollwheel support for kinetic scroll
Oct 17 14:19:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=946
Oct 17 14:41:07 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03abraxa * r3208 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/ (47 files in 4 dirs): 
Oct 17 14:41:07 <CIA-23> openmoko: Remove remainders of the EQ (won't be implemented for a while, if ever)
Oct 17 14:41:07 <CIA-23> openmoko: Fix memory leak revolving around omp_session_get_file_chooser_path()
Oct 17 14:41:07 <CIA-23> openmoko: Introduce new main UI
Oct 17 14:41:55 <abraxa_> CM: Cheers ;)
Oct 17 14:42:12 <abraxa_> Feedback is appreciated btw
Oct 17 14:55:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 947 has been created by ian(AT)darwinsys.com
Oct 17 14:55:01 <cdbot2> * * MediaPlayer startup error dialog does not wait for response
Oct 17 14:55:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=947
Oct 17 14:57:06 <krLun> hey, i wonder about the GPS in neo1973 GTA02.. has it not been decided between ublox & atmel? or what does the topic mean with u-blox/Atmel? 
Oct 17 14:57:42 <Writchie> krLun: ublox uses the Atmel silicon
Oct 17 14:57:53 <krLun> oh
Oct 17 14:58:23 <krLun> i read the datasheets on ATR0635, seems to be a complete GPS chipset though? 
Oct 17 14:58:26 <krLun> what does ublox add?
Oct 17 14:58:43 <SpeedEvil> A metal box.
Oct 17 14:58:58 <Writchie> krLun: AFAIK it's a module encorporated the ATR0635 - BT also uses a module rather than the raw chip.
Oct 17 14:59:33 <krLun> "module"? the asics is a module, isn't it?
Oct 17 14:59:41 <SpeedEvil> No.
Oct 17 14:59:44 <SpeedEvil> It's a single chip
Oct 17 15:00:02 <SpeedEvil> the module comprises a shielding box, assorted components that go round the chip.
Oct 17 15:00:03 <krLun> well, isn't that a module? gps functionality grouped into a single chip/module
Oct 17 15:00:09 <krLun> ok
Oct 17 15:00:11 <Writchie> but need an TXCO
Oct 17 15:00:15 <krLun> like capacitators etc?
Oct 17 15:00:16 <SpeedEvil> the chip is you solder it onto your own PCB
Oct 17 15:00:19 <SpeedEvil> yes
Oct 17 15:00:53 <krLun> so this box, i hope it won't be an external thing to neo? so i have to carry it around along side with the neo
Oct 17 15:00:55 <Writchie> more like your machine solders it
Oct 17 15:01:18 <Writchie> it built - in - invisible
Oct 17 15:01:35 <krLun> goodie
Oct 17 15:02:21 <krLun> how is it attached to the neo? is the box soldered, or cabled? i ask because it could be interesting to re-use the gps module in some other uC project of mine
Oct 17 15:02:40 <Writchie> krLun: you can buy the modules if you want for about $100
Oct 17 15:02:48 <roh> krLun its not a module. its integrated into the pcb
Oct 17 15:03:05 <roh> krLun the design is nearly identical to what you can buy as module from ublox
Oct 17 15:03:30 <roh> afaik ublox did all the design and uses atmel to manuf. the silicon. atleast thats how i understood that.
Oct 17 15:03:44 <roh> antares4 is the name of the whole thing
Oct 17 15:03:48 <krLun> ok
Oct 17 15:04:06 <krLun> why not u-blox 5?
Oct 17 15:04:28 <krLun> galileo is more accurate than gps, isn't it
Oct 17 15:04:34 <SpeedEvil> krLun: no
Oct 17 15:04:41 <SpeedEvil> krLun: galileo has one (1) satellite up.
Oct 17 15:04:46 <SpeedEvil> Actually, it may be 2.
Oct 17 15:04:49 <krLun> his makes u-blox 5 receivers the best all-round GPS chip offering in the market in terms of accuracy, reliability, performance and cost.
Oct 17 15:04:50 <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure.
Oct 17 15:04:59 <roh> krLun ublox5 isn't there yet afaik
Oct 17 15:05:04 <Writchie> ATR0635 is also WAAS capable
Oct 17 15:05:04 <SpeedEvil> It's the best part of a decade off a positioning system anyway.
Oct 17 15:05:10 <krLun> k
Oct 17 15:05:25 <roh> and galileo is also not active yet. atleast not for regular use (only 1 or 2 sats up yet)
Oct 17 15:05:26 <Writchie> and accepts differential corrections
Oct 17 15:05:57 <Writchie> if the other serial ports are used - which may or may not be the case
Oct 17 15:06:06 <kjetilk> Hi all! I'm in China and wondering if I should try to get the Neo if I can find it...
Oct 17 15:06:27 <krLun> is the usb-port pins of the antaris 4 available for external connection on the neo?
Oct 17 15:06:49 <Writchie> unluckly
Oct 17 15:06:51 <kjetilk> ....the wiki indicates the answer may be no, but...
Oct 17 15:07:25 <Writchie> krLun: if you want to play a module is probably your best bet rather than hacking up the neo hardware
Oct 17 15:07:30 <roh> krLun nope. the chip is connected to the appcpu via serial for saving power.
Oct 17 15:07:52 <Writchie> roh: just the one serial?
Oct 17 15:08:03 <roh> krLun but you can just use regular gpsd on the phone and access that via ip over bluetooth or usb-eth for example
Oct 17 15:08:15 <krLun> ok
Oct 17 15:08:19 <krLun> thats cool
Oct 17 15:08:32 <roh> Writchie jap. why more?
Oct 17 15:08:40 <Writchie> differential corrections
Oct 17 15:08:54 <roh> Writchie?
Oct 17 15:09:14 <cb22> so, how will the DGPS systems work?
Oct 17 15:09:18 <cb22> transparently or otherwise?
Oct 17 15:09:38 <Writchie> the chip is designed to accept inputs for correcting GPS using known postitions and signal receptions in a local area. 
Oct 17 15:10:11 <cb22> yes, but how does it correct the position?
Oct 17 15:10:20 <Writchie> roh: this improves accuracy, also its less of an improvement now that SA is turned off.
Oct 17 15:10:35 <krLun> SA?
Oct 17 15:11:06 <Writchie> krLun: Selective Availability - scrambling some of the signal for non-military users,
Oct 17 15:11:16 <Writchie> which reduces accuracy by a factor of 10
Oct 17 15:11:41 <cb22> although WAAS and EGNOS and the like still increase accuracy
Oct 17 15:12:03 <Writchie> the WAAS adds a signal from a geosynchronous satellite which dramatically improves vertical accuracy
Oct 17 15:12:10 <thos> zedstar: do you still have the keyboard problem with password entry?
Oct 17 15:12:21 <SpeedEvil> Writchie: which went away in 1998
Oct 17 15:12:25 <SpeedEvil> (or was it 6
Oct 17 15:12:31 <roh> Writchie well.. but why should that need a second serial or usb?
Oct 17 15:12:32 <Writchie> clinton:
Oct 17 15:12:33 <zedstar> hi thos.... erm yeh
Oct 17 15:12:54 <Writchie> it's how you communicate the differential correction data to the chip
Oct 17 15:12:57 <thos> zedstar: do you have the source code available somewhere?
Oct 17 15:12:58 <zedstar> thos, although i havent updated for a while
Oct 17 15:13:08 <thos> zedstar: or could you open a bug with an example?
Oct 17 15:13:54 <zedstar> thos: yeh i could do.... i have the source.... will look when im home... it was just a normal gtk password type entry thingie
Oct 17 15:14:32 <krLun> Writchie, should you not be able to send data to the chip through one serial port then?
Oct 17 15:14:43 <krLun> i thought it was bi-directional
Oct 17 15:15:08 <SpeedEvil> Serial is bidirectional. This does not mean the chip is listening for correction data or will understand it on that port.
Oct 17 15:15:12 <roh> krLunit is.
Oct 17 15:15:29 <Writchie> krLun: i'm not sure there is a way to configure it for all features using just one serial port.
Oct 17 15:15:32 <krLun> ok, so we cannot correct the chip using the current design?
Oct 17 15:15:40 <krLun> in favor of power savings?
Oct 17 15:16:09 <roh> Writchie please read the docs. the agps information gets into the chip via serial.
Oct 17 15:16:31 <zedstar> thos all i do is ... gtk_entry_set_visibility (GTK_ENTRY (password), FALSE); and then gtk_entry_set_invisible_char (GTK_ENTRY (password), '*'); on a normal text field
Oct 17 15:17:06 <SpeedEvil> krLun: the GPS chip supports a number of power saving modes.
Oct 17 15:17:22 <un1x> hi guys
Oct 17 15:17:29 <thos> zedstar: ok
Oct 17 15:17:46 <krLun> also, is the neo1973 circuit schematics available online? searched the wiki without any success
Oct 17 15:17:56 <rxr> I think not
Oct 17 15:17:56 <SpeedEvil> krLun: no
Oct 17 15:18:12 <un1x> i'm trying to install openmoko with Xephyr but I'm getting always the same error when I'm doing make openmoko-devel-image
Oct 17 15:18:36 <zedstar> thos: is that all u need or still need bug filed?
Oct 17 15:18:54 <krLun> is the circuit proprietary?
Oct 17 15:19:23 <SpeedEvil> krLun: yes
Oct 17 15:19:29 <krLun> why?
Oct 17 15:19:34 <SpeedEvil> funktio: the hardware is open in the driver sense.
Oct 17 15:19:49 <SpeedEvil> krLun: it's not open in the 'here is the schematic to build your own' sense.
Oct 17 15:20:15 <SpeedEvil> As FIC is a phone maker, and they want the profits from selling you phones.
Oct 17 15:20:33 <roh> krLun no. the schems are closed for now. we have released the debugboard schems and eventually will release partial schems later, but no bom, gerber and also with blackboxes for the gsm part (3rd party ip)
Oct 17 15:21:21 <krLun> so, the makers could for instance hook-up the GPS with the GSM chip and allow it to send my position ? this could be hidden in hardware, so i cannot detect it in sw
Oct 17 15:21:35 <un1x> can someone help me out with this compilation problem -> http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=m64e4009d ? 
Oct 17 15:21:35 <roh> krLun but we released the gpio wirings and all drivers are opensource by concept. if you have a specific question on the hardware, just ask. i can look into the schem and see what i can tell you
Oct 17 15:21:51 <thos> zedstar: a bug would be useful so we can track the issue
Oct 17 15:21:52 <SpeedEvil> krLun: yup.
Oct 17 15:22:13 <SpeedEvil> krLun: However, releasing schematics doesn't help wit that.
Oct 17 15:22:19 <krLun> i mean, ive heard that some ppl / organisations want to implement a way to extract the GPS position of each phone
Oct 17 15:22:22 <Writchie> roh: BTW I have read the docs - you have 3 different protocols and two available serial ports on the chip. If you are using only one serial port, then you have 3 protocols and only one on the chip. 
Oct 17 15:22:41 <zedstar> thos no problem will try and do it later tonight
Oct 17 15:22:42 <roh> krLun well.. still youre in control, since gsm and gps power are under control of the app-cpu/pmu combo for which you have all code and drivers.
Oct 17 15:23:18 <krLun> roh, well, obviously i want to use the two components individually, i just don't want them to do stuff "together" without me knowing about it 
Oct 17 15:23:30 <roh> krLun besides that the position of your phone is stored in the HLR of the gsm network youre connected to either way, even without any gps in a phone
Oct 17 15:23:53 <roh> krLun well.. be assured that harald an me will always be watching that such a thin does not happen
Oct 17 15:23:56 * telmich just wonders how realistic it is to have GTA02 in december as a christmas present...
Oct 17 15:24:15 * cb22 wonders along with telmich 
Oct 17 15:24:19 <thos> has anyone else noticed their Neo restarting randomly?
Oct 17 15:24:24 <krLun> roh, well, if the position stored in HLR is so accurate, why would they want to replace it with GPS coords? :) 
Oct 17 15:24:32 <roh> Writchie you only need to use one proto i think.
Oct 17 15:24:37 <krLun> i know you can triangulate a phone by measuring its signal to different base-stations
Oct 17 15:24:45 <cb22> krLun, cause the phone cant do it
Oct 17 15:24:54 <nibbler> the location stored in HLRs is not very accurate
Oct 17 15:24:57 <cb22> AFAIK the towers and the network can, but the phone cant
Oct 17 15:25:00 <roh> Writchie nmea for legacy, ubx for all features which nmea cannot do and the 3rd i do not know yet
Oct 17 15:25:02 <Writchie> roh: I think you may be able to use UBX and then fake the others from that
Oct 17 15:25:04 <Plasma_GR> that's their problem
Oct 17 15:25:06 <krLun> cb22, yeah, thats what i meant
Oct 17 15:25:18 <krLun> the thing is, i don't want THE MAN knowing where I am
Oct 17 15:25:19 <krLun> :D
Oct 17 15:25:22 <nibbler> they only store the current msc association there
Oct 17 15:25:25 <Writchie> roh: the third is RTCM which is what i was talking about.
Oct 17 15:25:38 <Writchie> RTCM provides differential corrections 
Oct 17 15:25:39 <roh> krLun who wants? the thing is: we build gsm phones for users, not for the carriers like the rest of the industry.
Oct 17 15:25:46 <Writchie> its widely used in marine applications
Oct 17 15:25:49 <nibbler> that gives you a resolution for geocoordinates that is in the range of... larger cities orso
Oct 17 15:25:54 <Writchie> or was
Oct 17 15:26:12 <roh> krLun and since gsm also relies on keeping old devices working we will not be forced to send out anything like coordinates soon.
Oct 17 15:26:14 <ewon> in an urban are a gsm node can be ~1km
Oct 17 15:26:14 <abraxa_> thos: I haven't heard of Neos restarting randomly, no
Oct 17 15:26:31 <ewon> in a rural setting it can be quite a number of km
Oct 17 15:26:37 <roh> Writchie well.. where should this differential informations come from?
Oct 17 15:26:38 <telmich> roh: I think the whole openmoko project is pretty cool and I really hope you get enough money for it to continue it in the next years
Oct 17 15:26:40 <thos> abraxa_: mine seems to :-/
Oct 17 15:26:41 <nibbler> plus: i noticed that some gsm operators do some load balancing that causes that the current msc the user is handled over is somewhere geographically entirely different
Oct 17 15:26:55 <krLun> roh, yeah, i get that.. its just that, the neo makers might be biased :) and influenced by some government
Oct 17 15:26:57 <roh> telmich i don't see that as a problem right now ;)
Oct 17 15:27:00 <telmich> roh: I relaly think it's the right way to go; and perhaps the neo and it's software will be the base for other phones later
Oct 17 15:27:06 <abraxa_> thos: Tried a different battery? Maybe that's the culprit
Oct 17 15:27:07 <Writchie> roh: it comes from fixed stations at known locations
Oct 17 15:27:12 <telmich> roh: that's good
Oct 17 15:27:16 <thos> abraxa_: yeah this is a different battery
Oct 17 15:27:21 <Writchie> RTCM is the protocol for passing this data 
Oct 17 15:27:29 <roh> krLun as long as i read the schems be assured i would tell you if. ;)
Oct 17 15:27:46 <krLun> roh: goodie :) are you a developer?
Oct 17 15:28:08 <Writchie> roh: if UBX has everything in it, a suitable driver could handle RTCM and NMEA on pty's exportable to BT etc. 
Oct 17 15:28:08 <ewon> I plan on writing a small daemon (data plan permitting) that sends my gps coords to my co-lo server, where some logic will use it to update a public-facing .kml
Oct 17 15:28:22 <roh> krLun my job is developer relations. that means internal as well as external developers we hired as well as the hackers out there/the community of developers
Oct 17 15:28:29 <cb22> so we can track you ewon ? :)
Oct 17 15:28:48 <krLun> roh, ok, thats cool, so you know both worlds
Oct 17 15:28:54 <roh> Writchie well.. the bluetooth-rfcomm<->gpsd should be totally generic
Oct 17 15:29:00 <roh> krLun jap.
Oct 17 15:29:03 <krLun> i can't wait to get my hands on a GTA02
Oct 17 15:29:08 <cb22> +1 krLun 
Oct 17 15:29:17 <Plasma_GR> +1 guys
Oct 17 15:29:21 <nibbler> ewon: i'd so love to replace my nokia sportstracker with that ;-)
Oct 17 15:29:35 <Henryk> oh, hi nibbler :)
Oct 17 15:29:36 <cb22> i _really_ cant wait :(
Oct 17 15:29:44 <cb22> i have a p990 and a v3x now, and i still cant wait :(
Oct 17 15:29:48 <Writchie> roh: yes, you just need a daemon to handle NMEA/RTCM on one side and UBX on the other
Oct 17 15:29:48 <nibbler> Henryque!
Oct 17 15:29:51 <krLun> i have this BULLSHIT phone from motorola now, it reboots randomly, lags a lot, the only thing keeping me from throwing it out is that i need a phone until december
Oct 17 15:29:58 <ewon> I thought discussing the GTA02 would result in laforge breaking your fingers or something
Oct 17 15:30:06 <cb22> krLun, which phone?
Oct 17 15:30:12 <krLun> its a V360
Oct 17 15:30:16 <cb22> first rule of gta02....
Oct 17 15:30:17 <roh> *sigh* you see.. half of the people wants so submit their data by choise, the rest does not want to at all...  thats why we need om. so everyone has a choice
Oct 17 15:30:17 <krLun> low-end crap
Oct 17 15:30:22 <cb22> krLun, have you tried flashing it?
Oct 17 15:30:39 <nibbler> cb22: the p990 is one of the few phones i'm unsure if an openmoko would not be the more stable and mature alternative ;)
Oct 17 15:30:43 <roh> Writchie gsmd does nmea and i think also ubx partially.. feel free to hack on it
Oct 17 15:30:48 <krLun> cb22, yeah, its flashed .. but it's not like i got a lot of firmware to choose from :)
Oct 17 15:31:14 <cb22> heh, i used to be quite active with the motorola e398 scene a while back :)
Oct 17 15:31:17 <cb22> that was lots of fun
Oct 17 15:31:18 <Henryk> would be cool if gsmd would do proper at for a start
Oct 17 15:31:21 <Plasma_GR> Well i always wondered, should i wait till the next release of neo? I am not a developer at all but I can be... Im not sure if I want the phone when it gets out... What do you think?
Oct 17 15:31:23 <cb22> gotta love those russians
Oct 17 15:31:33 <roh> ewon discussing any propabilities of releasedates would end in harald getting mad. thats right.. me too.. it just does not make any sense
Oct 17 15:31:42 <cb22> nibbler, the p990 is going to be the neo's slave
Oct 17 15:31:51 <cb22> it will be a wifi 3g device for it :)
Oct 17 15:31:52 <nibbler> cb22 ;)
Oct 17 15:31:58 <Writchie> roh: is the GTA02 stock Antaris 4 Protocol or something modified for OM
Oct 17 15:32:02 <cb22> and a camera for it
Oct 17 15:32:05 <roh> Henryk feel free to rewrite it ;) it was a hack from the start and never intended to be used as it is
Oct 17 15:32:06 <cb22> and a keyboard for it
Oct 17 15:32:09 <krLun> cb22: so i basically replaced a branded firmware, with a slightly updated unbranded firmware .. and i think i may have damaged the hw slightly during the flash (had to drill a hole, and short a TP pin). I guess thats what causing the spontaneous reboots
Oct 17 15:32:18 <cb22> heh
Oct 17 15:32:24 <cb22> havent you tried a custom firmware?
Oct 17 15:32:37 <cb22> like one from yuet
Oct 17 15:32:44 <krLun> yeah, thats what i use
Oct 17 15:32:46 <Henryk> roh: i know, i know.   (i was just answering your "gsmd does nmea") :)
Oct 17 15:32:46 <nibbler> cb22: good choice ;)
Oct 17 15:32:50 <krLun> yuet
Oct 17 15:32:52 <cb22> ah right
Oct 17 15:32:58 <roh> Writchie its the regular stock antares4 so you can switch it to any of the 3 Ãprotos as you want. a modle from ublox should even behave _exactly_ like the chipset integrated into the gta02
Oct 17 15:33:04 * cb22 remembers flashing his e398... good days :(
Oct 17 15:33:11 <krLun> the mac os x theme is nice though
Oct 17 15:33:14 <krLun> i like it on my v360
Oct 17 15:33:17 <Writchie> roh: great!
Oct 17 15:33:45 <roh> Henryk uh.. my bad.. gpsd/gsmd is just too foo for me sometimes and my fingers write something different than my brain want to
Oct 17 15:33:46 <cb22> krLun, actually though, there is some cool working going on for the e398
Oct 17 15:33:49 <cb22> like a binary loader....
Oct 17 15:34:37 <roh> Writchie we adhere to standards where possible and reasonable. i think thats important to differenciate from the ce-industry
Oct 17 15:35:05 <Writchie> roh: agreed - with caveats
Oct 17 15:36:07 <roh> well.. in the end we want to have something to touch, so we have to be pragmatic sometimes ,)
Oct 17 15:36:12 <Henryk> boah, downloads.openmoko.org in PREMIRRORS is really annoying currently. in about one out of 20 cases the download stalls
Oct 17 15:36:35 <Writchie> roh: i'm not absolutely sure you want the differentiation that your platform will never be used by someone cooperating with an operator. 
Oct 17 15:37:22 <roh> Writchie well, we do not rule out that. but we will continue to build hackable devices, so you always would be able to connect to jtag and flash what you wish
Oct 17 15:38:02 <nibbler> cb22: sad thing is that the P1i sucks too :( got my sample from s/e these days and deeply disappointed
Oct 17 15:38:09 <Writchie> roh: well nothing can be with SIM Toolkit, for example, if you disabled it all from the modem firmware build
Oct 17 15:38:29 <roh> Writchie jap. but do you want stk?
Oct 17 15:38:37 <roh> afaik we disabled it completely
Oct 17 15:38:59 <Writchie> roh: I can think of many use cases
Oct 17 15:39:24 <nibbler> Writchie: the problem with stk is that some networks depend on it
Oct 17 15:39:34 <Writchie> roh: remember open source is use by businesses as well. 
Oct 17 15:39:45 <nibbler> Writchie: which sucks of course, from an engineering pov
Oct 17 15:39:51 <krLun> what is stk?
Oct 17 15:40:01 <nibbler> krLun: sim application toolkit
Oct 17 15:40:12 <Writchie> you also have the choice of which network you use. 
Oct 17 15:40:16 <krLun> what is it used for? 
Oct 17 15:40:34 <nibbler> it's at least partially in GSM 03.48 i guess
Oct 17 15:40:47 <roh> Writchie well. the stk is not opensource and will probably never be. so for security reasons we left it out. but when we ever have the need we could build a gsm-fw with it i think... 
Oct 17 15:40:48 <nibbler> krLun: communication with the applications on the sim card
Oct 17 15:40:57 <Writchie> if you choose to use a network that takes advantage of sim tool to deliver some marketable functionality, you cannot use an OM for it. 
Oct 17 15:41:10 <roh> and after the updating in the field is worked out .. well.. yeah.. its all about users choice again
Oct 17 15:41:24 <nibbler> krLun: operators can over-the-air reprogram your sim via sms and your sim can interact with the user over dialogs and with the network via sms (data sms)
Oct 17 15:41:29 <nibbler> s/data/binary/
Oct 17 15:41:30 <apt> nibbler meant: krLun: operators can over-the-air reprogram your sim via sms and your sim can interact with the user over dialogs and with the network via sms (binary sms)
Oct 17 15:41:35 <Writchie> roh: that sounds encouraging. 
Oct 17 15:42:02 <krLun> oh, didn't know the sim cards had actual software on it
Oct 17 15:42:07 <roh> krLun stk could be used to 'backup' all your contacts on the sim and things like last called logs elsewhere... without you even knowing..
Oct 17 15:42:13 <roh> atleast in theory
Oct 17 15:42:20 <krLun> omg! we DON'T want that!
Oct 17 15:42:21 <krLun> :)
Oct 17 15:42:43 <roh> well.. thats why we disabled it for security reasons for now.
Oct 17 15:43:01 <Writchie> krLun: i'm not sure you understand it fully. 
Oct 17 15:43:02 <krLun> so a provider could send me sms messages, which makes arbitrary code on my sim card execute?
Oct 17 15:43:06 <krLun> thats scary
Oct 17 15:43:16 <Writchie> the operator ones the sim card. 
Oct 17 15:43:18 <cjb_ie> krLun: you hope it's a provider ;-)
Oct 17 15:43:21 <nibbler> it would actually be really great to trace stk actions
Oct 17 15:43:25 <nibbler> with the moko
Oct 17 15:43:30 <Writchie> it's an extentsion of the network. 
Oct 17 15:43:43 <krLun> ones?
Oct 17 15:44:15 <Writchie> operator "owns"
Oct 17 15:44:22 <krLun> oh, right
Oct 17 15:44:48 <krLun> so i can actually send such sms:es to my current phone, and it will execute?
Oct 17 15:44:57 <nibbler> yup
Oct 17 15:45:04 <nibbler> well - i see stk as a great feature
Oct 17 15:45:17 <nibbler> if you are the one implementing the stk applications :>
Oct 17 15:45:23 <krLun> is there a reference for how these messages should look? and what security measures are in place?
Oct 17 15:45:43 <krLun> like, i guess not any phone could send these special sms:es to any other phone
Oct 17 15:46:03 <SpeedEvil> Are cell broadcasts recievable by phones not logged onto the network?
Oct 17 15:46:09 <nibbler> krLun: the messages are at least in some way signed - that's sure
Oct 17 15:46:21 <nibbler> krLun: you can easily when you have smsc connectivity
Oct 17 15:46:21 <SpeedEvil> If for example there are too many phones in a cell.
Oct 17 15:46:29 <nibbler> which is not that problematic to get/buy
Oct 17 15:46:54 <Henryk> didn't we even have a talk about fun things most smartphones can be made to do last cccongress?
Oct 17 15:47:00 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: in theory, but I don't think they are presented if the phone is not registered. 
Oct 17 15:47:08 <Writchie> perhaps: if the mode is set to receive only
Oct 17 15:47:10 <krLun> and by disabling this STK feature, the moko will only treat the messages as binary blobs?
Oct 17 15:47:30 <Writchie> which brings up the question of what application uses "transmit only" ;)
Oct 17 15:50:07 <Writchie> krLun: some messages may be handed by SIM card and other by higher protocol layers. OTA programming "Over the Air" 
Oct 17 15:50:51 <Writchie> krLun: there's a lot of stuff in GSM - 20 years worth, 2 billion phones, GSM industry is not stupid people. 
Oct 17 15:51:23 <Writchie> but there is a lot of jockeying between operators, manufacturers, big users
Oct 17 15:52:37 <nibbler> Writchie: the problem is that the 3gpp standards are not designed by engineers in consortiums but by "the industry" and is more than moderately influenced by marketing decissions
Oct 17 15:52:43 <emdete> so what about the more interesting sms like wap-push? smsd does not decode those currently or am i wrong?
Oct 17 15:53:36 <Writchie> nibbler: both engineers and marketers
Oct 17 15:53:45 <x42> 6
Oct 17 15:54:15 <Writchie> marketing happens to be useful 
Oct 17 15:54:37 <SpeedEvil> To an extent.
Oct 17 15:55:01 <Writchie> good engineers listen to marketers - good marketers listen to engineers. 
Oct 17 15:55:13 <nibbler> Writchie: the problem is the lack of both probably ;)
Oct 17 15:55:24 <Writchie> there are never enuf
Oct 17 15:55:32 <Writchie> good ones that is. 
Oct 17 15:55:58 <Writchie> so mistakes are repeated again and again by each generation 
Oct 17 15:57:09 <nibbler> but i rather prefer a only-engineers-not-listening-to-marketing instance that defines standards more than having both tinkering stuff together
Oct 17 15:57:37 <Henryk> hmm, that's worse than politics. politics will only repeat big mistakes every two generations
Oct 17 15:58:03 <SpeedEvil> The optimum is for engineers to listen to marketing closely and then ignore most of it.
Oct 17 15:58:04 <Writchie> standards provide a way to meet requirements
Oct 17 15:58:25 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: well as a practical matter, absolutely ;)
Oct 17 15:58:49 <un1x> somehow I have prblems building u-boot with armv4
Oct 17 15:58:50 <Writchie> pinning requirements is the most difficult part of any product development IMNSHO
Oct 17 15:59:08 <emdete> nobody interested in wap-push or even mms (which is in fact nothing but a sms containing a url)?
Oct 17 15:59:40 <Writchie> emdete: there are some (like me) interested in all of it. 
Oct 17 15:59:56 <Writchie> emdete: but basic infrastructure has to come first
Oct 17 16:00:42 <emdete> :D mine wap-push/mms sms say 8bit encoded and aren't decoded. there is no decoder like for 7bit. do you have example code for that or even the spec?
Oct 17 16:01:09 <Writchie> emdete: there is some open source on the net. 
Oct 17 16:01:43 <Writchie> emdete: there is a need for library for full sms parsing/conversion to UTF-8
Oct 17 16:01:57 <emdete> Writchie: do u have a link? or a project name?
Oct 17 16:01:58 <Writchie> IMHO everything should be UTF-8 at upper layers
Oct 17 16:02:08 <emdete> Writchie: yes.
Oct 17 16:02:20 <emdete> Writchie: or unicode :)
Oct 17 16:02:20 <Writchie> IIRC it was an sms gateway project open sms gateway 
Oct 17 16:02:29 <emdete> kannel?
Oct 17 16:02:37 <Writchie> UTF-8 is unicode. 
Oct 17 16:02:40 <emdete> Writchie: nox-Hand 
Oct 17 16:02:43 <emdete> oups
Oct 17 16:02:52 <emdete> Writchie: no, utf-8 != unicode
Oct 17 16:03:05 <emdete> it's an encoding for unicode ;)
Oct 17 16:03:08 <Henryk> though of course the statement is still true
Oct 17 16:03:09 <Writchie> emdete: utf-8 encode full unicode
Oct 17 16:03:25 <Writchie> unicode is actually 32 bit
Oct 17 16:03:48 <emdete> Writchie: shure. but java for example does not use utf-8 internally as far as i know
Oct 17 16:03:59 <emdete> they use utf-16 or similar
Oct 17 16:04:54 <emdete> utf-8 has some drawbacks for rendering because of char-len and byte-len differences :/
Oct 17 16:05:00 <Henryk> everything should be UTF-8 at upper layers, or at least unicode
Oct 17 16:05:16 <Writchie> emdete: you can convert as needed. 
Oct 17 16:05:50 <Writchie> an sms library needs to have functions to compute how many characters will fit in an sms encoding. 
Oct 17 16:06:01 <emdete> Writchie: but back to the question: i tried to understand kannel's source but failed - do u know a smaller project doing mms/8bit decode of sms?
Oct 17 16:06:52 <Writchie> emdete: it's best to start with specs - because its a bit complex. 
Oct 17 16:07:23 <Writchie> there is an ad-hoc gsm character set (13 languages i think ) in 7 bits 
Oct 17 16:07:38 <Writchie> and 8 for Latin-x
Oct 17 16:07:54 <Writchie> and ucs2 (16 bit) for others like chinese
Oct 17 16:08:19 <Writchie> 7 bits are packed in messages in a funky reversed order IIRC
Oct 17 16:08:42 <Stephmw> I really wished they'd gone for pascale or basic-style strings in mobile dev
Oct 17 16:08:45 <Stephmw> *pascal
Oct 17 16:08:59 <SpeedEvil> You have very few chars.
Oct 17 16:09:07 <SpeedEvil> 200 or so 8 bit
Oct 17 16:09:13 <SpeedEvil> or rather 1600 bits or so.
Oct 17 16:09:21 <Writchie> when SMS was specified the Z80 was king
Oct 17 16:09:26 <SpeedEvil> If you pack them down to 7 bit, you get an extra 14% or so.
Oct 17 16:09:38 <SpeedEvil> SMS wasn't really specified as such.
Oct 17 16:09:39 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: this was very important
Oct 17 16:09:45 <Stephmw> I'm more concerned with buffer overruns
Oct 17 16:09:49 <SpeedEvil> It fell out of the spec when someone noticed it.
Oct 17 16:10:02 <Henryk> Stephmw: pascal? *shudder*
Oct 17 16:10:05 <SpeedEvil> (the fact that there was the possibility to do it)
Oct 17 16:10:40 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: possibility to do what?
Oct 17 16:10:59 <SpeedEvil> Send SMS in what was defined as reserved space (AIUI)
Oct 17 16:11:08 <Stephmw> Henryk: having the string length stored in the same structure has advantages
Oct 17 16:11:12 <Writchie> emdete: there is also a formatting known as EMS
Oct 17 16:11:24 <Henryk> Nobody will ever need a string longer than 255 bytes.
Oct 17 16:11:32 * Stephmw grins
Oct 17 16:11:59 <Stephmw> nobody needs to _count_ the length of a large string... oh.
Oct 17 16:12:03 <SpeedEvil> SMS is actually about the right length for semi-interactive mobile-mobile messages.
Oct 17 16:12:15 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: SMS was fully defined IIRC around 96 as part of PhaseII
Oct 17 16:12:16 <SpeedEvil> IMO.
Oct 17 16:12:55 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: I agree its just about the right length for Short Messages
Oct 17 16:13:02 <ozarka> SpeedEvil:  I agree with you on SMS length.
Oct 17 16:13:09 <Writchie> in Chinese it drops to half the characters. 
Oct 17 16:13:19 <SpeedEvil> But aren't the chars richer?
Oct 17 16:13:19 <ozarka> Some phones handle longer messages semi-transparently.
Oct 17 16:13:21 <Writchie> but Chinese characters carry twice the content or better
Oct 17 16:13:31 <Writchie> ozarka: most 
Oct 17 16:13:36 <ozarka> Breaking up the message and putting them together.
Oct 17 16:13:51 <Writchie> ozarka: its part of the spec now
Oct 17 16:14:00 <Stephmw> isn't order not guaranteed?
Oct 17 16:14:12 <ozarka> Writchie:  The more you know!  Consider me informed.  :-)
Oct 17 16:14:20 <Writchie> there is a character for this. 
Oct 17 16:14:40 <Writchie> s/character/protocol indicator sequence/
Oct 17 16:14:40 <apt> Writchie meant: there is a protocol indicator sequence for this. 
Oct 17 16:15:26 <Writchie> gsm is very opposite of the internet human readable at a teletype protocol model
Oct 17 16:15:38 <Writchie> its from the days when bits mattered. 
Oct 17 16:16:11 <Writchie> imagine processing xml on a z80
Oct 17 16:16:13 <Writchie> on the fly
Oct 17 16:17:02 * SpeedEvil is currently parsing a 13G XML file.
Oct 17 16:17:09 <Writchie> on a z80
Oct 17 16:17:11 <cb22> ooh, fun
Oct 17 16:17:14 <SpeedEvil> It's not really compact.
Oct 17 16:17:19 <CM> SpeedEvil: OOXML spec? ;)
Oct 17 16:17:30 <SpeedEvil> I think that with a trivial binary protocol I can pack the data into 600M
Oct 17 16:17:32 <ozarka> You should use a computer for that SpeedEvil.
Oct 17 16:17:51 <SpeedEvil> It's the current OpenStreetmap weekly planet dump.
Oct 17 16:18:32 <hrw> useless here ;(
Oct 17 16:18:38 <SpeedEvil> Why?
Oct 17 16:18:44 <hrw> no coverage
Oct 17 16:18:50 <SpeedEvil> You're in .nl
Oct 17 16:18:55 <hrw> no - in .pl
Oct 17 16:18:55 <SpeedEvil> You have complete coverage.
Oct 17 16:18:58 <SpeedEvil> Ah
Oct 17 16:19:04 <hrw> I just use .nl account on irc
Oct 17 16:19:13 * CM ponders mickeyl's blog post
Oct 17 16:19:25 * hrw prefers google maps currently
Oct 17 16:19:28 <SpeedEvil> hrw: well - you have GPS, you have ...
Oct 17 16:19:47 <SpeedEvil> google-maps is of course preferable for 99.999% users.
Oct 17 16:20:19 <CM> They suck for Sweden, unfortunately :-/
Oct 17 16:20:28 <hrw> SpeedEvil: I even have two gps units - bv3 and bv4
Oct 17 16:20:31 <SpeedEvil> Until it comes to being able to freely download maps.
Oct 17 16:21:08 <hrw> SpeedEvil: create working application for neo to gather data for osm and I will start using it
Oct 17 16:21:21 <SpeedEvil> Well.
Oct 17 16:21:25 <SpeedEvil> I have actually.
Oct 17 16:21:37 <SpeedEvil> It's main component is tail -f|gzip -9 though.
Oct 17 16:22:57 * CM plays with the openmoko-browser2
Oct 17 16:23:46 <Stephmw> after seeing this, 'plays' has so many added meanings... http://www.cibercomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/peteysa1.jpg
Oct 17 16:24:05 <CM> Heh, it crashed on wikipedia.com
Oct 17 16:24:57 <cb22> Stephmw, lol
Oct 17 16:25:00 <hrw> SpeedEvil: the bad part is that traces are then parsed by java app
Oct 17 16:25:13 <hrw> java and amd64 are hard to match
Oct 17 16:25:39 <CM> Sure is.. :(
Oct 17 16:25:43 <Stephmw> cb22: "Hi! My name is Spiderman... and some perv felt me up"
Oct 17 16:26:05 <SpeedEvil> hrw: java or flash
Oct 17 16:26:18 <cb22> CM, can i join you in pondering?
Oct 17 16:26:57 * hrw installs sun java6
Oct 17 16:27:52 <SpeedEvil> There has been a major sea-change with OSM - segments have gone away.
Oct 17 16:28:02 <CM> cb22: http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/10/17/on-to-taipei/
Oct 17 16:28:05 <famelix> nick vinicius
Oct 17 16:28:06 <SpeedEvil> So there are rough edges left from the changeover.
Oct 17 16:28:10 <cb22> CM, i saw it
Oct 17 16:28:17 <cb22> i'm also wondering what it means...
Oct 17 16:29:06 <SpeedEvil> cb22: black/silver or orange/green
Oct 17 16:29:07 <CM> I'm guessing marketing vs engineers disagreements
Oct 17 16:29:15 <cb22> SpeedEvil, the ultimate question :)
Oct 17 16:29:29 <cb22> CM, heh, thats a bad one... UF comes to mind
Oct 17 16:31:18 <PBeck> hi
Oct 17 16:35:06 <SpeedEvil> hrw: wow - poland is quite empty.
Oct 17 16:36:38 <hrw> exactly
Oct 17 16:40:11 <abraxa_> cb22 / CM: I would suspect mickey's hint was more aimed towards the content of the "Phone functionality in GUI applications" thread
Oct 17 16:40:24 <abraxa_> (On framework-devel)
Oct 17 16:40:32 <SpeedEvil> I was 'only' 2Km from the nearest feature (a railway line) and 10Km from a road.
Oct 17 16:43:06 <CM> abraxa_: Oh, ok 
Oct 17 16:49:26 <CM> Hmm.. Only 53.7% of the screen is used to actually show the page you browse: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/83d87bb229c706413e446861e4ac2ab9.png
Oct 17 16:49:41 * anrp spots excess precision
Oct 17 16:49:57 <CM> anrp: Sure? :D 
Oct 17 16:50:09 * CM changes to "about half is used"
Oct 17 16:50:11 <anrp> not entirely
Oct 17 16:50:13 <SpeedEvil> I agree. I found FF actually usable. - with some extensions to help.
Oct 17 16:50:35 <CM> Seriously, it's only 604x273 pixels or so
Oct 17 16:50:53 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: don't suppose you have a blog/website do you?
Oct 17 16:50:55 <SpeedEvil> FF  - not running just displaying on the neo
Oct 17 16:50:56 * CM wishes for fullscreen mode with finger scrolling
Oct 17 16:51:05 <SpeedEvil> StealthCP: no
Oct 17 16:51:18 <SpeedEvil> You know who you are.
Oct 17 16:51:23 <CM> SpeedEvil: That's a shame, you have a lot to say ;)
Oct 17 16:51:29 <StealthCP> I think you mean
Oct 17 16:51:47 <StealthCP> wait, what?
Oct 17 16:51:59 <SpeedEvil> StealthCP: sorry - mistab.
Oct 17 16:52:02 <CM> StealthCP: Hehe.. He was answering Stephmw 
Oct 17 16:52:06 <StealthCP> Yeah, thought so :P
Oct 17 16:52:25 <Stephmw> ahhh
Oct 17 16:52:30 <SpeedEvil> It's not actually mistab.
Oct 17 16:52:43 <SpeedEvil> It's that I've got into the bad habit of just using xxx:
Oct 17 16:54:40 <vinicius1987> wheres mickey from?
Oct 17 16:56:05 <CM> vinicius1987: Is Germany specific enough?
Oct 17 16:57:16 <vinicius1987> yes
Oct 17 16:57:48 <vinicius1987> Not from baviera?
Oct 17 16:58:11 <CM> FFM I think
Oct 17 16:59:03 <abraxa_> vinicius1987: FFM, yes
Oct 17 16:59:20 <vinicius1987> ok
Oct 17 17:03:29 <hrw> SpeedEvil: so how you gather gps tracks now?
Oct 17 17:03:44 <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/dogll
Oct 17 17:04:07 <SpeedEvil> Then scp off the GPS tracks when I get back. GPSbabel to make them into a GPS track
Oct 17 17:04:14 <SpeedEvil> Then scp off the GPS tracks when I get back. GPSbabel to make them into a GPX track
Oct 17 17:04:21 <hrw> cupcake?
Oct 17 17:04:46 <SpeedEvil> I don't remember what I called it.
Oct 17 17:05:26 <hrw> SpeedEvil: anyway you have it in /usr/local/bin/ so please check ;)
Oct 17 17:17:50 <CM> Damit.. My neo seems to be bricked for real this time.. :(
Oct 17 17:17:57 * CM takes a dinner break
Oct 17 17:28:38 <lalo> good grief, telepathy has a truckload of libs and daemons
Oct 17 17:29:32 <xkr47> libmindcontrol :)
Oct 17 17:37:02 <roh> lalo well telepathy is a nice idea.. but afaik it cannot even properly speak jabber, which makes it totally useless
Oct 17 17:37:21 <Robot101> roh: what?!
Oct 17 17:37:29 <lalo> there's haze
Oct 17 17:37:39 <roh> but i dunno if thats just missing implementation-bits or architectural problems
Oct 17 17:37:47 <Robot101> roh: what's the problem?
Oct 17 17:38:01 <roh> Robot101 with telepathy you mean?
Oct 17 17:38:16 <Robot101> roh: with the jabber, yes
Oct 17 17:39:26 <roh> Robot101 last time i checked there was no client outside of pre-alpha and no working backend which supported my not that high minimum implementation needs. which means 'properly speak jabber, muc, gpg, ssl/tls, multiple accounts on different jabber servers and transports
Oct 17 17:40:01 <Robot101> the infrastructure all works very well; it's used on the Nokia internet tablets
Oct 17 17:40:17 <lalo> haze :-)
Oct 17 17:40:17 <Robot101> desktop client is being worked on, but in the case of the openmoko you'd make a specific UI anyway
Oct 17 17:40:21 <Robot101> so that's a bit of a red herring
Oct 17 17:40:37 <Robot101> jabber... muc and multiple accounts have been supported for years
Oct 17 17:40:51 <roh> i agree. (about the gui)
Oct 17 17:40:53 <Robot101> ssl works, tls works but we've waiting for or about to make a loudmouth release
Oct 17 17:41:11 <Robot101> (it seems that because we're the most active users, we're now essentially the maintainers of loudmouth 1.3)
Oct 17 17:41:16 <lalo> Robot101: by "we" you mean you're a telepathy developer?
Oct 17 17:41:33 <roh> Robot101 to be fair, i currently use gajim and are quite happy with it. i never could stand the stench or gaim or psi which both are unworkable for longer use
Oct 17 17:41:35 <Robot101> lalo: I'm pretty much the lead developer, yeah
Oct 17 17:41:42 <lalo> cool!
Oct 17 17:41:52 <roh> nice to know
Oct 17 17:42:03 <Robot101> although I'm also running a company so sometimes it seems I don't spend enough time on telepathy
Oct 17 17:42:08 <lalo> I now who to bother if this project gets off the ground, then :-P
Oct 17 17:42:43 <Robot101> roh: transports we don't bother with because the intention is to provide richer implementations of the protocols directly using the telepathy API
Oct 17 17:43:15 <Robot101> and gpg you've totally got me atm, but it's not for any reason other than we havn't sat down and worked out how to do it
Oct 17 17:43:52 <thomasgruebler> hello
Oct 17 17:44:13 <thomasgruebler> i compiled with make and the akefile for over 18h
Oct 17 17:44:17 <thomasgruebler> and http://rafb.net/p/MGVfwl76.html returned
Oct 17 17:44:20 <thomasgruebler> so it didn work
Oct 17 17:44:36 <CM> abraxa_: The mediaplayer seems to work ok, except that it sounds horrible because I have the wrong libmad
Oct 17 17:44:36 <thomasgruebler> can you help me?
Oct 17 17:44:47 <abraxa_> CM: Yay :)
Oct 17 17:44:51 <CM> abraxa_: But why oh why is the play-button backwards?!?
Oct 17 17:44:52 <abraxa_> CM: And how is your Neo borked?
Oct 17 17:45:13 <roh> Robot101 well.. since aim an similar stuff is not bearable and i only use one of these via transport i cannot switch to a client which does not support that
Oct 17 17:45:14 <abraxa_> CM: You want to be spanked, eh? ;)
Oct 17 17:45:15 <Robot101> lalo: what project? you know we have a #telepathy on this network :)
Oct 17 17:45:19 <CM> abraxa_: It refused to boot when I rebooted. Had to flash it 4 times before it got past loading the kernel
Oct 17 17:45:26 <lalo> I know
Oct 17 17:45:27 * CM leans forward slightly.. :P
Oct 17 17:45:41 <lalo> I'll probably going to be joining it if I go on with the project
Oct 17 17:45:41 <Robot101> roh: the only thing that's unusual about a transport is just setting it up, we don't do that but the contacts you get will work fine for messaging and presence
Oct 17 17:45:51 <abraxa_> CM: *spanks* and swaps your Neo with a working one
Oct 17 17:45:57 <lalo> I'm looking into using telepathy for all sorts of things in openmoko
Oct 17 17:46:19 <Robot101> lalo: I've spoken to sean and mickey a few times this year
Oct 17 17:46:22 <CM> abraxa_: Hehe.. I'll get to fixing my uboot and uboot_env some time..
Oct 17 17:46:40 <lalo> first a chat client to learn the API :-) but the way I see it... there are some wheels getting reinvented that we probably don't need
Oct 17 17:46:50 <CM> abraxa_: Did you see http://www.advogato.org/person/ensonic/diary.html?start=70
Oct 17 17:47:00 <lalo> IMO gsmd should be using telepathy... if it doesn't turn out to be possible for voice, then at least for SMS
Oct 17 17:47:10 <Robot101> lalo: right, exactly what I was saying...
Oct 17 17:47:13 <roh> Robot101 don't misunderstand me, i know a lot people which do that, simply because they dont wanna update their clients everytime some idiot company changes the protocol. that basically moves the problem to the transport-admins, but at least you don't have to care (or give some evil company besides the server-admin of choice your ip)
Oct 17 17:47:46 <Robot101> roh: right, but there a lot more people who care more about the functionality that transports don't offer
Oct 17 17:48:01 <Robot101> roh: like calling, or file transfers, avatars, nudges, whatever
Oct 17 17:48:09 <abraxa_> CM: Damn, that is mighty useful. Thanks a ton for the hint!
Oct 17 17:48:27 <CM> abraxa_: Really neat, I agree :)
Oct 17 17:48:40 <CM> abraxa_: Now I'm expecting the best mediaplayer ever ;)
Oct 17 17:48:52 <Robot101> roh: and transports get disconnected far more often than 3rd party clients do, not because they're using reverse-engineered code (often the same code), but because they're doing too much traffic with the Im service :P
Oct 17 17:49:16 <roh> Robot101 well.. jap. but that only helps pulling people to jabber, away from other stuff.
Oct 17 17:49:32 <roh> besides that ive not seen a good multiproto-client yet
Oct 17 17:50:23 <roh> but hey.. good to know that somebody cares for jabber. we really need a good client for that later
Oct 17 17:50:58 <Robot101> the jabber backend we wrote first, it's been around for 2 years
Oct 17 17:51:25 <abraxa_> CM: I do, too ;)
Oct 17 17:51:25 <roh> Robot101 do you plan on jingle-support?
Oct 17 17:52:03 <Robot101> roh: we've had that since january
Oct 17 17:52:07 <Robot101> I think we were the first...
Oct 17 17:52:16 * Robot101 is one of the XEP authors too
Oct 17 17:52:53 <lalo> one of the pages I read today claims some telepathy thing is the first jingle client :-) so yeah
Oct 17 17:54:24 <CM> abraxa_: http://claesmogren.com/~cm/neo/Screenshot-3.png :)
Oct 17 17:55:34 <abraxa_> CM: Yes, that's ugly. ;)
Oct 17 17:56:08 <abraxa_> CM: Extract http://abraxa.dyndns.org:81/random/openmoko-mediaplayer-r3208.tgz to /, please, and try again ;p
Oct 17 17:56:11 <CM> I like that white head that's emiting sound..
Oct 17 17:56:26 <Stephmw> that's the telepathy indicator
Oct 17 17:57:21 <abraxa_> CM: Unfortunately that's the balance indicator for which I don't have use atm ;x
Oct 17 17:59:02 <vinicius1987> haha
Oct 17 17:59:20 <CM> abraxa_: Oh, looks much nicer! How can I add a cover image?
Oct 17 18:00:51 <abraxa_> CM: Replace no_cover.png ;)
Oct 17 18:01:20 <abraxa_> That feature will come in a bit
Oct 17 18:02:01 <CM> abraxa_: Hehe.. Ok
Oct 17 18:05:51 <kousu> My GSM chip doesn't seem to listen to me. Can anyone help guide me through how to test it?
Oct 17 18:06:10 <kousu> I'm in the uboot GSM passthrough prompt/terminal/thing
Oct 17 18:10:18 <kousu> sometimes it listens, and sometimes it just gives me "ERROR", and sometimes it doesn't respond at all
Oct 17 18:10:32 <kousu> Is there a command that resets the GSM modem?
Oct 17 18:11:18 <abraxa_> kousu: You might have an old u-boot which has transmission errors
Oct 17 18:11:26 <abraxa_> Do you have the debug board?
Oct 17 18:11:42 <kousu> No, no debug board.
Oct 17 18:12:04 <abraxa_> In that case, flashing u-boot can inhibit a certain risk
Oct 17 18:12:17 <kousu> I thought I had the most recent uboot. I got: uboot-gta01bv4-latest.bin  
Oct 17 18:12:27 <kousu> I flashed it yesterday
Oct 17 18:12:32 <abraxa_> Oh okay then
Oct 17 18:12:39 <abraxa_> I thought you never flashed it
Oct 17 18:12:44 <kousu> It's not a snapshot uboot, are there newer versions?
Oct 17 18:12:48 <abraxa_> In that case the bug is fixed for you
Oct 17 18:13:17 <kousu> Well, it still doesn't work for some reason.
Oct 17 18:13:24 <abraxa_> Where did you get it?
Oct 17 18:13:38 <kousu> To log on to the GSM network I need to do "ATZ" then "AT+CPIN=xxxx" then "AT+CREG=1" right?
Oct 17 18:13:57 <abraxa_> No idea, sorry :)
Oct 17 18:14:20 <kousu> I got it from http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/fic-gta01/, but I think it might be some funkiness with the GSM module itself or the provider (Rogers Wireless)
Oct 17 18:14:22 <abraxa_> For the time being I am staying as far away from gsmd as I can - it's way too buggy right now
Oct 17 18:15:05 <abraxa_> kousu: Could it be that the stations around you operate at 850MHz only?
Oct 17 18:15:25 <kousu> That's entirely possible. Is that a problem for the openmoko?
Oct 17 18:15:30 <abraxa_> Cause right now the GSM chipset is effectively tri-band, not being able to communicate on 850
Oct 17 18:15:33 <plebz> quit
Oct 17 18:16:08 <abraxa_> Well, it *could* be an explanation
Oct 17 18:16:17 <abraxa_> Not necessarily the right one, however :)
Oct 17 18:17:07 <kousu> Quickly googling: I think my area is triband
Oct 17 18:19:53 <anrp> no areas are triband
Oct 17 18:20:02 <anrp> us/canada(/mexico?) are 850/1900
Oct 17 18:20:07 <anrp> rest of world is 900/1800
Oct 17 18:20:27 <anrp> well, i think that no areas are triband
Oct 17 18:20:37 <anrp> there may be a select few in maybe upper class airports and such
Oct 17 18:20:44 <buz> oh neat n800 with qwerty http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3669465936.html
Oct 17 18:21:12 <anrp> in the us/canada, 900 is ISM
Oct 17 18:21:19 <anrp> most of the rest of the world allocated it for gsm
Oct 17 18:21:21 <buz> and gps
Oct 17 18:21:24 <kousu> anrp: oooh, okay. that's good to know.
Oct 17 18:21:25 <anrp> same with 850, vice versa
Oct 17 18:21:34 <kousu> Well, I'm in Canada
Oct 17 18:21:38 <kousu> so it *should* work right?
Oct 17 18:21:41 <anrp> should
Oct 17 18:21:46 <kousu> I've seen it working in Canada.
Oct 17 18:21:47 <anrp> except if its 850
Oct 17 18:21:53 <anrp> there seems to be some trouble somewhere with that
Oct 17 18:21:58 <anrp> on the neo
Oct 17 18:22:02 <anrp> not sure why
Oct 17 18:22:12 <kousu> Is there any AT command that can query what signals are available?
Oct 17 18:22:34 <abraxa_> kousu: I'm sure there is but good luck finding it in the GSM specs ;)
Oct 17 18:22:51 <CM> abraxa_: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/462de666bcb447faebfd10f591cc3e9e.png :D
Oct 17 18:23:24 <abraxa_> haha CM... and why does your progress bar look so odd...
Oct 17 18:23:42 <abraxa_> Ugh, I know why
Oct 17 18:23:50 <CM> abraxa_: Don't know. It just grows. Maybe because it's sucking 90%+ cpu?
Oct 17 18:23:51 * abraxa_ kicks GTK yet another time
Oct 17 18:24:31 <abraxa_> CM: GTK doesn't apply the theme to the progress bar as it *should*
Oct 17 18:25:08 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03laforge * r3209 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-gta02.patch: make GTA02 pcf50633 changes compile again
Oct 17 18:26:35 <CM> abraxa_: Nice work on the player :)
Oct 17 18:26:54 <buz> oh things are getting interesting "Steve Jobs today announced that Apple is working on a software development kit (SDK) for the iPhone and iPod touch so that  third-party developers can build native applications for the devices." (ars)
Oct 17 18:27:15 <abraxa_> Thanks - and don't be sparse with tips for improvement. I do want to make it great ;)
Oct 17 18:27:19 <CM> abraxa_: Btw, the "File added successfully" dialog you get after every file you add isn't that necessary. Or? And I guess reordering the playlist is on the works?
Oct 17 18:27:31 * CM has already started thinking ;)
Oct 17 18:27:41 <CM> Damn, time to go to a birthday party..
Oct 17 18:27:55 <buz> the difference between volume slider and position slider is not very apparent
Oct 17 18:31:28 <abraxa_> buz: Yup, that's why both are gone :)
Oct 17 18:31:31 <abraxa_> And have fun, CM
Oct 17 18:31:44 <buz> must have been looking at the wrong screenie the
Oct 17 18:31:44 <buz> n
Oct 17 18:32:01 <buz> i would love to have a player where you can search alphabetically
Oct 17 18:32:57 <buz> which a sizeable playlist, scrolling is just too painful
Oct 17 18:33:00 <abraxa_> As in... clicking one of A..Z and getting a list of all tracks starting with that?
Oct 17 18:34:11 <buz> that and maybe enter a substring and show all tracks containing that substring 
Oct 17 18:34:20 <buz> same for band names
Oct 17 18:34:28 <buz> (think amarok's search capability)
Oct 17 18:36:19 <abraxa_> Ah okay
Oct 17 18:36:55 <abraxa_> Amarok sure seems to be the competitor to beat ;p
Oct 17 18:42:07 <ScaredyCat> fluffy spider .. cool name for a company....
Oct 17 18:50:53 <gamin> building openmoko-browser results in an error because "check" (check.sf.net) is not found. commenting the corresponding line out builds w/o error.
Oct 17 18:51:20 <gamin> line #37 in configure.aaac that is
Oct 17 18:53:33 <torpor> yo
Oct 17 18:55:38 <CoreDump> roh: thanks ;)
Oct 17 18:56:55 <torpor> yo 
Oct 17 19:00:04 <buz> abraxa_: if you come up with mobile amarok, that may well be openmoko's killer app
Oct 17 19:04:38 * ww pings roh from c-base
Oct 17 19:15:02 <SpeedEvil> Evil.
Oct 17 19:15:21 <SpeedEvil> '3' in the UK were offering - through dealers - cashback if you buy a phone.
Oct 17 19:15:57 <SpeedEvil> Their model - they said to the companies providing the service was to make it so difficult to claim that only 40% would claim.
Oct 17 19:16:00 * don-o begins a new mokomakefile build 
Oct 17 19:16:10 <Kliment> can I hear...24 month contract
Oct 17 19:22:09 <ScaredyCat> the question is, why bother...
Oct 17 19:22:19 * ScaredyCat screams 
Oct 17 19:39:20 <olle_> hi
Oct 17 19:40:03 <olle_> is it true that is possible to change the software integrated in the neo1073, and that it is (mostly) free software?
Oct 17 19:40:11 <olle_> i would love that
Oct 17 19:42:05 <Magon> truly true
Oct 17 19:42:36 <ljp> yes, its so free, you can entirely relace it with Qtopia, which is also free
Oct 17 19:42:42 <ljp> replace
Oct 17 19:42:43 <Magon> :-)
Oct 17 19:42:49 <ckuethe> that is of course the point of the whole exercise
Oct 17 19:42:55 <ckuethe> eliminating lock-in
Oct 17 19:43:17 * olle_ drools
Oct 17 19:43:24 <ljp> actually, the Neo doesn't some with _any_ operating system.
Oct 17 19:43:28 <olle_> me wants, me wants, :D
Oct 17 19:48:45 <vinicius1987> oh yea... I think everybody in this chat too
Oct 17 19:49:11 <vinicius1987> ; D
Oct 17 19:51:55 <don-o> fresh mokomakefile build died with: "svn: Can't open 'openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/data/.svn/tmp/icons.tmp.tmp': Operation not permitted". it might be a local smb mount problem but everything else has worked to this point.
Oct 17 20:05:25 <vinicius1987> I'm downloading files from openmoko svn right now
Oct 17 20:05:47 <vinicius1987> so it's not the server for sure
Oct 17 20:06:09 <roh> don-o well.. building on nfs or smb is really not recommended
Oct 17 20:06:46 <enjahova> does this usually take a while:
Oct 17 20:06:47 <enjahova> ( cd images && ../openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/download.sh )
Oct 17 20:06:47 <enjahova>     Retrieving available builds list...
Oct 17 20:07:13 <roh> ww hey.. yeah.. i will come by soon
Oct 17 20:14:16 <Stephmw> hmmmm, http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3669465936.html
Oct 17 20:14:17 <Stephmw> they finally realised onboard GPS was key
Oct 17 20:17:56 <enjahova> is download.sh supposed to take a while with no output?
Oct 17 20:23:26 <don-o> enjahova: i was going to look at my output and check for you but my backscroll doesnt go back that far :(
Oct 17 20:23:35 <enjahova> =\
Oct 17 20:23:43 <don-o> enjahova: my feeling is no, that should be quick or show more output
Oct 17 20:23:57 <enjahova> its just sitting there and my process manager shows sh sleeping
Oct 17 20:24:02 <enjahova> nothing is using cpu really =\
Oct 17 20:24:24 <don-o> enjahova: sounds like a network problem
Oct 17 20:24:52 <enjahova> don-o: hmmm any idea what kind? it was just downloading the svn just fine
Oct 17 20:26:22 <don-o> enjahova: nope. dns maybe. or the problem could be on the other end. are you using mokomakefile?
Oct 17 20:27:10 <enjahova> don-o i am using mokomakefile
Oct 17 20:27:54 <enjahova> i'm actually doing automatic emulation in ubuntu
Oct 17 20:28:00 <enjahova> so i make qemu
Oct 17 20:28:40 <enjahova> everything was going fine and it just stuck at download.sh
Oct 17 20:34:40 <enjahova> hmm now it cant connect to buildhost.openmoko.org
Oct 17 20:35:13 <enjahova> :(
Oct 17 20:36:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 948 has been created by jptmoore(AT)gmail.com
Oct 17 20:36:02 <cdbot2> * * Keyboard dissappears when text field has visibility turned off
Oct 17 20:36:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=948
Oct 17 20:36:48 <pvanhoof> somebody here aware of how the GPRS chip of the phone works? mickey|packing perhaps?
Oct 17 20:36:56 <pvanhoof> I have some technical questions
Oct 17 20:37:41 <enjahova> yay its back!
Oct 17 20:38:17 <mjr> ask and maybe someone knows
Oct 17 20:43:32 <ScaredyCat> CM: midori will be back in again shortly
Oct 17 20:46:09 <CM> ScaredyCat: I'll try it right away :)
Oct 17 20:46:36 <PBeck> how can i use a normal image from others to run it in qemu?
Oct 17 20:46:40 <ScaredyCat> you'll need to wait about 20 mins, just building final packeges and uploading
Oct 17 20:47:58 <CM> ScaredyCat: I have your feed as the default
Oct 17 21:12:36 <mrface> what happened to buildhost? http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/
Oct 17 21:12:45 <mrface> there is nothing there
Oct 17 21:19:27 <Ghiottone> hello
Oct 17 21:20:00 <Ghiottone> it seems that openmoko-tasks2 doesn't build and loops in configure. anyone?
Oct 17 21:20:54 <abraxa_> Ghiottone: Did you have a look at the logs in build/tmp/work/foo?
Oct 17 21:22:42 <Ghiottone> yes. it keeps doing configure
Oct 17 21:24:02 <abraxa_> Does configure finish successfully then?
Oct 17 21:24:16 <Ghiottone> it seems so
Oct 17 21:24:19 <Ghiottone> it creates makefiles
Oct 17 21:24:29 <Ghiottone> I'm now trying again with a clean build
Oct 17 21:24:33 <abraxa_> ah
Oct 17 21:24:46 <abraxa_> Well, it would be certain if you'd check the logs ;0
Oct 17 21:25:13 <Ghiottone> I see in the logs that it creates the makefles
Oct 17 21:25:27 <abraxa_> Ah okay
Oct 17 21:25:30 <Ghiottone> then it exits the trunk dir and reenters it to do configure once again
Oct 17 21:25:52 <abraxa_> Sounds like the stamp file isn't created after the run
Oct 17 21:25:55 <Ghiottone> I am experiencing a clock skew, maybe it is related to this
Oct 17 21:26:04 <abraxa_> Maybe configure exists non-zero for some reason
Oct 17 21:26:18 <abraxa_> exits*
Oct 17 21:27:42 <Ghiottone> could it be that the makefiles redoes the target as its timestamp is in the future
Oct 17 21:28:31 <abraxa_> Hmm maybe... though configure isn't timestamp-aware like make
Oct 17 21:30:11 <ScaredyCat> CM: done
Oct 17 21:30:49 <Ghiottone> abraxa_ no luck with a clean rebuild
Oct 17 21:31:12 <abraxa_> Darn
Oct 17 21:36:23 * abraxa_ randomly kicks GTK in the nuts for sucking so much
Oct 17 21:44:04 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03abraxa * r3210 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-2/gtk-2.0/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Fix the GtkProgressBar theming
Oct 17 21:44:24 <mickey|packing> i can feel your pain. the progress bar is _really_ tough to get right
Oct 17 21:44:56 <abraxa_> ...especially because I can't override settings that were set by the OpenMoko theme
Oct 17 21:45:01 <abraxa_> I can only *change* them
Oct 17 21:45:22 <abraxa_> Instead of not making them apply, I mean
Oct 17 21:52:21 <mickey|packing> the best thing is that if you look around the widgets, you find that there's a totally arbitrary split between object properties and theme properties
Oct 17 21:52:37 <pvanhoof> mickey|packing, I have some questions about the gprs chip, who should I ask?
Oct 17 21:53:00 <guaqua> pvanhoof: just ask
Oct 17 21:53:01 <mickey|packing> try asking on openmoko-devel
Oct 17 21:53:01 <pvanhoof> Like, how can I save battery, yet keep sockets open :)
Oct 17 21:53:05 <guaqua> someone might answer here
Oct 17 21:53:07 <mickey|packing> it's a TI Calypso
Oct 17 21:53:11 <mickey|packing> standard AT command set
Oct 17 21:53:14 <mickey|packing> that's about everything I know
Oct 17 21:53:37 <pvanhoof> ok, atm I'm implementing QRESYNC, but later this evening I'll just ask guaqua  :)
Oct 17 21:53:40 <ScaredyCat> atz
Oct 17 21:53:44 <ScaredyCat> OK
Oct 17 21:53:49 <guaqua> don't ask me
Oct 17 21:53:57 <guaqua> you're better off with reading the specs
Oct 17 21:54:11 <guaqua> but someone else might pick the questions if you just ask them
Oct 17 21:54:13 <anrp> gprs is low power ish
Oct 17 21:54:20 <anrp> its not like a phone call, since it's packet oriented
Oct 17 21:54:39 <anrp> theres a bit of extra radio noise keeping the connection open but as long as you don't send stuff/receive stuff over it it won't hurt that much
Oct 17 21:54:41 <Writchie> pvanhoof: there is provision to put the multiplexor in low power state 
Oct 17 21:54:59 <Writchie> then the link itself can be shutdown and resume on wake-up
Oct 17 21:55:03 <pvanhoof> Writchie, okay, are you here in a few hours?
Oct 17 21:55:14 <pvanhoof> right, I'll need to know about the details of that
Oct 17 21:55:14 <Writchie> should be
Oct 17 21:55:28 <Writchie> i can't be sure that all of it works per the spec
Oct 17 21:55:31 <pvanhoof> for making IMAP IDLE not consume your entire battery after 5 hours
Oct 17 21:55:57 <Writchie> in the real world we need to be operating with the mux - not like done with the current gsmd
Oct 17 21:56:00 <pvanhoof> Most imap servers are fine with you not doing anything on the socket for 20 minutes
Oct 17 21:56:23 <pvanhoof> so I think we can make standard IMAP IDLE on GPRS just fine for your battery
Oct 17 21:56:40 <Writchie> the ti: will handle it all with relativelyl low power, waking up the SoC only when a packet is available
Oct 17 21:56:58 <Writchie> remember its IP so TCP/IP is at higher layer
Oct 17 21:57:04 <Writchie> TCP keep alive
Oct 17 21:57:08 <pvanhoof> aha, ok. so it's something I don't need to care about a lot
Oct 17 21:57:17 <pvanhoof> just don't make the IMAP server reply for a bunch of time
Oct 17 21:57:24 <Writchie> as long as TI behaves as expected. 
Oct 17 21:57:43 <pvanhoof> yes, well .. else openmoko's hw guys should make it behave like that! :D
Oct 17 21:58:03 <pvanhoof> Well the other option is to receive notifications over SMS messages and things like that
Oct 17 21:58:08 <Writchie> it looks promising at the moment for firmware upgrade if necessary
Oct 17 21:58:18 <Writchie> same wakeup occurs with SMS
Oct 17 21:58:19 <pvanhoof> but all that implies changes to the IMAP server, getting the GSM network provider to make changes to their network, etc etc
Oct 17 21:58:40 <Writchie> or with unsolicited messages if they are not handled like they should be
Oct 17 21:58:51 <Writchie> suspend should shut down unsolicited responses. 
Oct 17 21:58:58 <pvanhoof> Yes, most imap servers, when in IDLE, pack events together
Oct 17 21:59:04 <Writchie> so only SMS and gprs packets wake us up.
Oct 17 21:59:04 <pvanhoof> so that they fit in one TCP/IP packet
Oct 17 21:59:21 <Writchie> or incoming calls
Oct 17 21:59:31 <Writchie> not signal strenth changes
Oct 17 21:59:54 <pvanhoof> that's good, means normal IDLE and NOTIFY wont consume the battery
Oct 17 22:00:00 <pvanhoof> well, not much
Oct 17 22:00:15 <Writchie> not much - suspend resume should be economical
Oct 17 22:00:22 <Writchie> even if wakeup one a minute or so
Oct 17 22:00:26 <pvanhoof> but it's something to carefully test
Oct 17 22:00:44 <pvanhoof> else when people will configure an email account, their battery could drain quickly :)
Oct 17 22:00:47 <Writchie> need kernel to stabilize which should be a matter of days
Oct 17 22:01:53 <Writchie> moko days that is
Oct 17 22:02:11 <pvanhoof> :)
Oct 17 22:02:21 <pvanhoof> moko days = more than normal days, or less? Guessing more
Oct 17 22:02:38 <Writchie> moko day is something more than one day
Oct 17 22:03:13 <Writchie> kind of like manana
Oct 17 22:03:23 <Writchie> doesn't meant yesterday
Oct 17 22:03:27 <Writchie> just not today ;)
Oct 17 22:03:33 <guaqua> :)
Oct 17 22:03:37 <pvanhoof> :)
Oct 17 22:03:41 <Writchie> i meant tommorrow
Oct 17 22:04:18 <pvanhoof> Well, if necessary I can get openmoko in touch with the people at Isode, so that the IMAP server and GPRS e-mail clients are perfectly aligned for this
Oct 17 22:04:30 <pvanhoof> but to make it some sort of IMAP standard, that's harder
Oct 17 22:05:21 <pvanhoof> but I'll raise the issue, because maybe we can make NOTIFY very suitable for this, and get push-email without the Blackberry patents
Oct 17 22:05:22 <Writchie> you should be able to hold up a TCP connection without much of a problem
Oct 17 22:06:00 <Writchie> lot's of ways to skin the cat
Oct 17 22:06:08 <pvanhoof> Next month I'll be in Prague for a meeting on Lemonade, so if there are details I need to know how gprs chips work
Oct 17 22:06:12 <pvanhoof> let me know before that date :)
Oct 17 22:06:36 <Writchie> gprs works fine now. 
Oct 17 22:06:52 <Writchie> just need to deal with the PM issues. 
Oct 17 22:07:30 <Writchie> there can also be problems after you drop out of GPRS coverage
Oct 17 22:07:32 <pvanhoof> You are working on GPRS for openmoko Writchie ?
Oct 17 22:07:42 <SpeedEvil> GPRS is mostly done
Oct 17 22:07:47 <SpeedEvil> It works
Oct 17 22:08:02 <Writchie> PPP pretty much does it all
Oct 17 22:08:09 <SpeedEvil> it just needs the GSMd changes to come through so that you can recieve a call when on gprs
Oct 17 22:08:14 <SpeedEvil> (and interrupt the session/)
Oct 17 22:08:18 <Writchie> its the mux and mux routing bit. 
Oct 17 22:08:25 <pvanhoof> GPRS and a call don't go together?
Oct 17 22:08:36 <Writchie> not in Class B
Oct 17 22:08:45 <pvanhoof> In that case, it's important for me to close the connection with the IMAP server in a clean way
Oct 17 22:09:05 <pvanhoof> because if the call takes longer than 20 minutes, the IMAP server would or could disconnect the E-mail client
Oct 17 22:09:06 <Writchie> the GPRS will suspend during the call
Oct 17 22:09:23 <pvanhoof> right, I'll  need to know when a call is about to start and when it finishes then
Oct 17 22:09:46 <pvanhoof> so that I can do a clean disconnect , and a reconnect and a check for new messages (that might have been received during the call)
Oct 17 22:09:47 <Writchie> pvanhoof: you'll need to check and reconnect if necessary after call completion
Oct 17 22:09:53 <guaqua> imap client daemon and dbus interface? :>
Oct 17 22:10:23 <guaqua> incoming call emits a signal for the imap to disconnect and vice versa
Oct 17 22:10:25 <pvanhoof> what is used for network state changes? Something that looks like NetworkManager?
Oct 17 22:10:35 <guaqua> or then just dump the connection and reconnect after the phonecall
Oct 17 22:10:36 <pvanhoof> guaqua, right
Oct 17 22:10:46 <guaqua> that's just one idea
Oct 17 22:11:03 <pvanhoof> I'll need to adapt tinymail for this, but sounds like something important that I haven't thought about yet
Oct 17 22:11:09 <guaqua> i don't know if there's a framework for network state changes
Oct 17 22:11:19 <pvanhoof> right now tinymail only knows about "connected" and "disconnected" network
Oct 17 22:11:29 <pvanhoof> but this is a suspended :)
Oct 17 22:11:46 <anrp> seems like it'd be easier to treat it as disconnected
Oct 17 22:11:53 <anrp> just reconnect when call finishesa
Oct 17 22:11:53 <pvanhoof> aha, something like this is planned? Sounds useful for certain applications to know about these state changes
Oct 17 22:12:17 <pvanhoof> anrp, true, but sometimes I can do a better saving of the state
Oct 17 22:12:30 <Writchie> gprs suspend is not really like a disconnect
Oct 17 22:12:36 <pvanhoof> like, I can know that a reconnect will soon happen, and save a few roundtrips that way
Oct 17 22:12:40 <Writchie> until you try to send something from either end
Oct 17 22:13:05 <Writchie> in which case one end will drop the tcp connection
Oct 17 22:13:10 <Writchie> and the other won't know it
Oct 17 22:13:12 <pvanhoof> Which is not unimportant when you're on gprs :), where roundtrip latency can take up to 100ms
Oct 17 22:13:24 <anrp> up to
Oct 17 22:13:25 <anrp> ??
Oct 17 22:13:29 <anrp> its way more than that
Oct 17 22:13:30 <Writchie> the mobile end, however, can follow state
Oct 17 22:13:30 <pvanhoof> yes or more
Oct 17 22:13:34 <nibbler> 100ms would be terrific
Oct 17 22:13:41 <nibbler> it's rather 1000ms and more
Oct 17 22:13:44 <pvanhoof> I think I meant 50000ms :)
Oct 17 22:13:46 <Writchie> remote end is not aware of GPRS suspend
Oct 17 22:13:47 <anrp> good is like 600ms ~_~
Oct 17 22:13:58 <nibbler> the problem with gprs is rather jitter
Oct 17 22:14:01 <pvanhoof> Right, I usually set my NETEM to 1400ms
Oct 17 22:14:22 <nibbler> Writchie: yup, that kinda sucks
Oct 17 22:14:46 <pvanhoof> Writchie, jup and if we're suspended for longer than 20 minutes , the IMAP server who didn't get a NOOP will disconnect
Oct 17 22:14:46 <Writchie> i like UDP better
Oct 17 22:14:50 <pvanhoof> and that's something to avoid
Oct 17 22:15:20 <pvanhoof> because it might have been trying to send precious IDLE changes that we now don't know about :)
Oct 17 22:15:23 <Writchie> if you have the choice it probably better to use UDP and use TCP/IP only for transfers
Oct 17 22:16:14 <pvanhoof> IMAP is not UDP, regretfully
Oct 17 22:16:55 <mickey|packing> cu from .tw
Oct 17 22:17:05 <pvanhoof> have a good flight mickey|away 
Oct 17 22:17:07 <mickey|away> thanks
Oct 17 22:18:09 <pvanhoof> Anyway, knowing about network state-changes, like suspend (because there's an incoming call), disconnected from the GPRS access point, connected, etc
Oct 17 22:18:25 <pvanhoof> and also the quality of the network, and the price per bandwidth unit :)
Oct 17 22:18:36 <pvanhoof> because on wifi, I can perhaps get some more data more quickly
Oct 17 22:18:53 <Writchie> yes
Oct 17 22:18:58 <pvanhoof> whereas on gprs, I might want to be modest about what I request, as it's going to cost money to the user
Oct 17 22:19:03 <Writchie> need a cost of current connection state
Oct 17 22:19:18 <pvanhoof> uhu, not unimportant
Oct 17 22:19:29 <pvanhoof> I can make a few decisions based on this info
Oct 17 22:19:30 <Writchie> critical for some use cases
Oct 17 22:20:19 <pvanhoof> Like: let's not try to get the user to receive his POP e-mails right now
Oct 17 22:20:27 <Writchie> if the IMAP end can recognize a dangling TCP conncection and terminate it you may have a solution 
Oct 17 22:20:33 <pvanhoof> or warn him about the size of what will be received, vs. the cost
Oct 17 22:20:53 <Writchie> better for mobile to pull
Oct 17 22:21:09 <Writchie> isn't that why you're using IMAP
Oct 17 22:21:16 <pvanhoof> Depends, push can give me with less bandwidth, more info
Oct 17 22:21:57 <pvanhoof> because it gives changes since the last time it notified me
Oct 17 22:22:15 <pvanhoof> whereas most pull protocol commands give you all the info every time
Oct 17 22:22:19 <Writchie> you will need to test connection after voice call 
Oct 17 22:22:45 <Writchie> if connection went away, then you will need to re-establish
Oct 17 22:22:54 <pvanhoof> uhu
Oct 17 22:23:12 <pvanhoof> Well, I think we'll might consider having a networkmanager-like :)
Oct 17 22:23:12 <Writchie> tcp connection that is
Oct 17 22:23:17 <pvanhoof> might have to, I mean
Oct 17 22:23:55 <pvanhoof> It's not going to be saner to let the E-mail client poke the processes of for example the thing that handles the call, the voice call, etc
Oct 17 22:24:00 <Writchie> it will take some time to get the whole MT (Mobile Termination) layer rational and fully featured.
Oct 17 22:24:53 <pvanhoof> at GMAE I proposed to discuss a dbus protocol spec for things like network manager next time btw
Oct 17 22:25:07 <Writchie> gprs != WIFI and mobile internet is a myth without 3G
Oct 17 22:25:23 <pvanhoof> to avoid that soon we'll have 15 different ways to know about the state on mobiles :)
Oct 17 22:26:03 <Writchie> i'm actually working a d-bus MT layer definition and implementation from scratch
Oct 17 22:26:11 <Writchie> for GSM/UMTS
Oct 17 22:26:13 <pvanhoof> oh, and we want to compete with blackberry. so all this should integrate perfectly imo :)
Oct 17 22:26:53 <Writchie> next generation has to move to USB to the modem to handle the data rate
Oct 17 22:27:18 <Writchie> its kinda like BT HCI over USB or serial
Oct 17 22:27:24 <Writchie> serial is now out of gas
Oct 17 22:27:24 <anrp> serial can be clocked pretty fast you know
Oct 17 22:27:27 * anrp thinks of serial ata
Oct 17 22:27:46 <anrp> also, usb is serial
Oct 17 22:27:55 <Writchie> anrp: not in most SoC - usually at most one high speed IRDA oriented
Oct 17 22:28:03 <anrp> serial uart D:
Oct 17 22:28:10 <anrp> yeah those usually go up to a couple mbaud
Oct 17 22:28:37 <Writchie> and the buffers are too small and the dma often sucks or is completely broken
Oct 17 22:29:08 <Writchie> USB solves a lot 
Oct 17 22:39:51 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03shoragan * r3211 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.23.x/patches/ (gta01-backlight.patch gta01-vibrator.patch s3c2410-pwm.patch): Restructure gta01 backlight and vibrator for the new s3c2410-pwm.
Oct 17 23:31:27 <fugazy> hello there, i just got a GTA01 last week and i have some troubles building the whole system with mokomakefile.
Oct 17 23:31:40 <cesarb> fugazy: who hasn't?
Oct 17 23:32:14 <fugazy> good to hear then, but i guess some have managed to go to the end
Oct 17 23:34:12 <fugazy> i am in the task do_rootfs but it breaks wit Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-ui: xserver-kdrive-common
Oct 17 23:35:29 <fugazy> i tried to rebuild xserver-kdrive-common a few times and it builds ok except for some QA error
Oct 17 23:35:53 <fugazy> rings a bell to someone ?
Oct 17 23:57:02 <ColdFyre> is there a status location for the overall progress of openmoko?
Oct 18 00:02:42 <linux_galore> www.openmoko.org  look at the wiki site
Oct 18 00:03:25 <linux_galore> the wiki has status information
Oct 18 00:03:33 <ColdFyre> yeah, lacks the info i was wondering aobut
Oct 18 00:03:40 <ColdFyre> in the detail
Oct 18 00:04:51 <linux_galore> ColdFyre: welcome to development land, I work for a company that makes products too and I have samples and not a clue when it will be finalised lol
Oct 18 00:05:07 <ColdFyre> haha
Oct 18 00:05:17 <ColdFyre> i guess i'll have to wait when the big day comes i guess
Oct 18 00:05:40 <linux_galore> thats pretty normal, there are always hurdles and suppliers dont like giving exact dates for parts 
Oct 18 00:06:19 <ColdFyre> i wasnt looking for for an eta, i was just looking for things like "we got dialing working perfect today!"
Oct 18 00:06:48 <linux_galore> ColdFyre: last I heard it dials but its not stable
Oct 18 00:08:05 <linux_galore> ColdFyre: best bet is to read the opemmoko planet dev posts, you get some idea of were the product is
Oct 18 00:08:32 <ColdFyre> i do, they are mostly random odd things:)
Oct 18 00:08:46 <ColdFyre> "today i was thinking about floppy disks"
Oct 18 00:08:52 <linux_galore> lol
Oct 18 00:09:10 <linux_galore> Floppy disk Ninja star hack
Oct 18 00:09:19 <ColdFyre> haha, leet
Oct 18 00:10:00 <linux_galore> for all thos budding Ninja Geeks, you dont hear them or see them, your system just seems to get fixed
Oct 18 00:10:05 <linux_galore> those*
Oct 18 00:16:45 <Henryk> re
Oct 18 00:40:05 <mac000> hi
Oct 18 00:43:25 <mac000> how are u?
Oct 18 00:44:00 <mac000> how are u ?
Oct 18 00:44:10 <mac000> & how u doing ?
Oct 18 01:35:46 <iew> has anyone had success with the debug board
Oct 18 01:36:27 <iew> my copy of openocd fails in jtag_examine_chain()
Oct 18 01:38:17 <Sr|Raven> dont wanna be a pain in the butt or so,but are there even rumours on a neo1973 successor ?
Oct 18 01:45:51 <cesarb> iew: never actually tried to use mine, but I've heard it fails unless you power on the phone manually (jtag cannot do the poweron itself)
Oct 18 01:47:54 <nelson> raster: hi.
Oct 18 01:48:24 <raster> nelson: moo moo
Oct 18 01:56:36 <nelson> raster: how's life?  Better than death so far?
Oct 18 01:58:45 <raster> life is busy.... but good :)
Oct 18 01:59:00 <BryceLeo> speaking of, raster, you decided to get a new job yet or still just enjoying the freedom?
Oct 18 01:59:43 <raster> i never do anything without a plan :)
Oct 18 02:00:02 <BryceLeo> haha, i know, i was just checking to see what stage your plan's at
Oct 18 02:00:28 <BryceLeo> besides, i can't for a second believe you'd have a problem in the world finding a job
Oct 18 02:00:35 <ljp> do you plan your breaths and heartbeats?
Oct 18 02:01:06 <raster> BryceLeo: it's easy to have a problem finding a job. you can be too picky :)
Oct 18 02:01:40 <BryceLeo> hahaha, my buddy eppy had that problem, eventually settled at the Institute of Advanced Study heading up their security
Oct 18 02:01:42 <raster> ljp: mostly.. :)
Oct 18 02:03:13 <nelson> IAS is nice, but you have to live in New Jersey.
Oct 18 02:03:34 <BryceLeo> nelson:  you'd be amazed at how nice jersey actually is,
Oct 18 02:03:41 <sagacis_> hola
Oct 18 02:03:50 <raster> dunno
Oct 18 02:03:51 <BryceLeo> it's not at all like trenton and camden
Oct 18 02:03:54 <raster> its in the states
Oct 18 02:04:03 <raster> that pretty much puts it out of scope :)
Oct 18 02:04:03 <sagacis_> At the risk of being OT, I can't boot my neo anymore without going through the boot menu
Oct 18 02:04:36 <BryceLeo> haha raster i figured as much
Oct 18 02:05:17 <nelson> Used to be a trolley line going right past IAS from downtown Princeton.
Oct 18 02:05:23 <nelson> Now THAT would be convenient.
Oct 18 02:06:25 <BryceLeo> lol, that would be nice, unless you didn't live in trenton, i'm not much of a princeton fan
Oct 18 02:06:36 <BryceLeo> give me the more country atomosphere of west amwell
Oct 18 02:06:46 <nelson> Ahhhh, that was the trolley *to* Trenton.
Oct 18 02:07:01 <nelson> There were two; one north and the other south of 209
Oct 18 02:07:36 <BryceLeo> heh, that's before my time
Oct 18 02:08:01 <nelson> mine too, although you used to be able to see the trolley tracks in the street in front of the library.
Oct 18 02:08:32 <BryceLeo> the library at the university or the new one
Oct 18 02:08:47 <nelson> the boro library.
Oct 18 02:09:33 <nelson> There also used to be a whopping huge railroad yard south of the university; six or seven tracks.
Oct 18 02:09:35 <BryceLeo> the one that got redone recently?
Oct 18 02:09:43 <BryceLeo> abandoned?
Oct 18 02:09:51 <nelson> That was for the Princeton football games.
Oct 18 02:10:18 <BryceLeo> wow
Oct 18 02:10:21 <nelson> And did you know that Carnegie lake is totally artificial?  Some rich alumni had it built for the rowing club.
Oct 18 02:10:43 <BryceLeo> haha, i knew that one, 
Oct 18 02:10:48 <nelson> They used to row on the canal.  Imagine flimsy rowing boats in with canal boats?!?
Oct 18 02:11:10 <BryceLeo> lol.... that sounds a bit dangerous
Oct 18 02:49:36 <spikebike> gphone rumors are driving me crazy
Oct 18 02:49:48 <nelson> Did you say gphone?!?!
Oct 18 02:50:06 <nelson> i heard they were going to buy out the FIC.
Oct 18 02:50:13 <no_mind> well rumors say official announcement is due on nov 5
Oct 18 02:50:27 <nelson> actually I just made that one up.  Aren't rumors fun?
Oct 18 02:50:41 <spikebike> most rumors seem to center on initial hardware being htc
Oct 18 02:51:06 <spikebike> would seem strange for google to get into the hardware business
Oct 18 02:51:29 <nelson> I thought that htc made ALL handheld electronics.
Oct 18 02:51:43 <rwhitby> google won't make hardware, they will make an OS that works on any phone that WinMobile works on
Oct 18 02:51:45 <spikebike> yeah, popular brandless maker
Oct 18 02:51:55 <spikebike> rhitby yeah that makes sense
Oct 18 02:52:05 <spikebike> er w
Oct 18 02:52:49 <nelson> but I expect that the announcement will be "here's the software and ... here's the hardware from $FOO on which the software already runs"
Oct 18 02:52:55 <spikebike> right
Oct 18 02:53:01 <nelson> At which point they step back and get out of the way of the scramble.
Oct 18 02:53:21 <spikebike> I heard some initial noise about phone being based on openmoko.. not sure if that was just wishful thinking
Oct 18 02:53:42 <spikebike> yeah there's plenty of cool windows mobile phones to pick from
Oct 18 02:54:02 <nelson> yeah, and who wouldn't want to partner with teh b0rg?
Oct 18 02:54:39 <spikebike> I'd say 99% of what I'd justify paying for data on a cell phone for is google related
Oct 18 02:55:11 <spikebike> (gmail, gmaps, gsat, search, travel routing, etc)
Oct 18 02:56:51 <nelson> well, but .... also ... having the ability to run my own software, too.
Oct 18 02:59:07 <no_mind> google is seriously targeting the free spectrum
Oct 18 02:59:25 <no_mind> 700 one
Oct 18 02:59:37 <no_mind> so that goole can start selling its own devices
Oct 18 02:59:48 <no_mind> google appliance mobile
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Oct 18 02:59:57 2007