**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 21 02:59:56 2007 Oct 21 03:01:08 thanks for answering my questions Oct 21 03:01:13 bye! Oct 21 07:23:48 good morning Oct 21 07:38:22 Hi girls and guys! ;) Oct 21 07:38:50 I've finally managed to compile build devel image (ofcourse only after updating it) Oct 21 07:39:36 now I cannot start qemu; when I type make wemu-local i get error described on http://www.pastebin.ca/744252 . Please help me. :) Oct 21 07:40:53 CM: so, I did successful compile by not touching anything by updating sources Oct 21 07:58:13 morning Oct 21 07:58:37 good morning Oct 21 08:07:56 mickey|tw: maybe you could help with: http://www.pastebin.ca/744252 ? (problem with 'make qemu-local') Oct 21 08:13:03 Orzech_: Maybe that's a problem with the rootfs and kernel not being in the path that the makefile expects. Oct 21 08:13:13 Orzech_: Ask rwhitby about it if he's around Oct 21 08:18:27 did you sort out your mkfs.jffs error Orzech_ ? Oct 21 08:18:43 Hmm.. I tried to build qemu and I get some "mtdparts not set" warning Oct 21 08:18:55 So there's some dependancy missing Oct 21 08:25:10 CM: thx Oct 21 08:27:07 ScaredyCat: what do you mean? Oct 21 08:27:38 didn't you have a problem earlier... with mkfs.jffs during a build Oct 21 08:27:51 Orzech_: there's little point of pasting localized builds Oct 21 08:27:58 well, I got message, that image was build successfully Oct 21 08:27:58 LC_ALL=C LANG=C Oct 21 08:28:28 well, I translated most important messages into English, but you're right Oct 21 08:28:38 will change it to english ;) Oct 21 08:39:39 ScaredyCat: I was wondering, is there a quick howto for setting up a qtopia build env for the neo? Oct 21 08:43:30 mickey|tw: english version here: http://www.pastebin.ca/744279 (it was enough to set LC_MESSAGES to en_US) Oct 21 08:44:26 I'll be back soon Oct 21 08:59:28 starts uploading images... Oct 21 09:01:08 ScaredyCat: grepping for error from make openmoko-devel-image did not find any line Oct 21 09:04:17 * ScaredyCat points up in the channel Oct 21 09:04:45 hello, my new isn't starting up at all, any hints? Oct 21 09:04:46 thought you had a problem last night Oct 21 09:04:57 neo Oct 21 09:04:58 your new whaT? Oct 21 09:05:00 ahh Oct 21 09:05:23 plug it into usb port , leave it powered off but plugged in for an hour at least Oct 21 09:06:32 hmm i tihnk i've done that yesterday, for more then an hour... Oct 21 09:06:36 Unplug battery first for at least 5 min Oct 21 09:06:48 all stuff in the phone may not be off. Oct 21 09:06:59 hence drawing what power is available to charge to power it Oct 21 09:07:36 Most phones boot after 5 min off, 1h on Oct 21 09:08:07 so, battery out for 5 min, then charge for an hour Oct 21 09:08:13 Basically, yes. Oct 21 09:08:26 See [[Damn I've forgotten the pagename on the wiki Oct 21 09:08:33 okie, i'll try that, what is causing this? Oct 21 09:08:47 It's basically that power managment is almost unimplemented Oct 21 09:08:51 i tried Neo FAQ, but it's not there Oct 21 09:09:16 Look at the page SH1 Oct 21 09:09:35 the gui offers 'full pm' option, after that, the neo doesn't wake up Oct 21 09:09:35 I think there is a link from there. Oct 21 09:10:49 yep, found it Oct 21 09:11:28 hi Oct 21 09:11:46 hi Oct 21 09:19:32 builds some other apps... Oct 21 09:27:59 builds new package lists and uploads them... Oct 21 09:39:37 ScaredyCat: is your message on buildhost.auto...it still correct about 3rd sep being best/ Oct 21 09:39:38 ? Oct 21 09:40:02 some friends of mine just broke a world record Oct 21 09:40:09 for the longest archery training session Oct 21 09:40:13 31 hours of non-stop shooting Oct 21 09:40:41 well, that was the best according to CM ... it might be good to try a newer one, but the problems with the top bar dying started after that image. Oct 21 09:40:53 has built images and packages and uploaded them all... Oct 21 09:41:04 ewon: yeah, dangerous weapon and tiredness, always good bedfellows Oct 21 09:41:04 ah ok Oct 21 09:41:59 ScaredyCat: yeah :) Oct 21 09:42:32 i think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74zhNxgFkTQ# that world record is more spectacular Oct 21 09:53:39 openmoko: 03werner * r3231 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/envedit.pl: Oct 21 09:53:39 openmoko: envedit.pl (set): return 1 on success Oct 21 09:53:39 openmoko: envedit.pl: invoke "set" with $ARGV[0], not $_ Oct 21 10:20:36 ScaredyCat: The images from Oct 17 are also good Oct 21 10:23:43 xzcvczx: That looked pretty dangerous too Oct 21 10:29:08 ~seen magon Oct 21 10:29:10 magon is currently on #openmoko (1h 17m 49s), last said: ':-)'. Oct 21 10:31:00 why? Oct 21 10:31:17 :) Oct 21 10:31:21 we just talked about you Oct 21 10:31:25 me? Oct 21 10:31:25 nevermind Oct 21 10:32:17 i am going out..but if you have something you have to say me just PM me :_) Oct 21 10:32:23 right Oct 21 10:34:02 but i cannot figure out why talking about me..... Oct 21 10:42:54 lol Oct 21 10:47:02 Hi; how to put openmoko on htc tytn II (kaiser)? Oct 21 10:47:46 mb_: Does the htc tytn II run linux? Oct 21 10:48:28 CM: hi man; I don't know this...how can know that? Oct 21 10:49:03 Well, probably it's better to ask around in #oe, openembedded Oct 21 10:49:21 I've traied CM, but they said to me to enter here Oct 21 10:49:27 Ah, ok Oct 21 10:49:38 Hmm.. I don't know what kind of mobile that is Oct 21 10:50:00 And if it doesn't boot a linux kernel you'll have a difficult time to get openmoko to run on it Oct 21 10:50:40 Understood...but, how could I know if linux kernel works on kaiser? Oct 21 10:50:57 I didn't found anything around the net Oct 21 10:51:12 Then it's very unlikely you'll get OpenMoko to run Oct 21 10:51:28 Unless you're a real hacker yourself and gets it done ;) Oct 21 10:52:26 yeah man, but I need an input: how to boot kernel on kaiser? I need image? what? Oct 21 10:52:41 I don't know either. Oct 21 10:52:51 What you have to know is how the bootloader on that phone works Oct 21 10:53:14 What partition or flash addres it points to, how to boot from a mmc or sd card and so on Oct 21 10:53:32 You'll have to ask someone who know the specifics of the htc kaiser Oct 21 10:53:57 owkee...thanks man, your words could be the right input :) tanks* Oct 21 10:54:08 mb_: Good luck Oct 21 10:54:19 The more phones that can run OpenMoko the better :) Oct 21 10:54:48 :°D thanks, see u Oct 21 11:03:12 abraxa_: ping Oct 21 11:10:00 * * OM Bug 951 has been created by  Oct 21 11:10:02 * * Adding an empty contact should not be possible Oct 21 11:10:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=951 Oct 21 11:12:21 * ScaredyCat quickly adds lots of empty contacts Oct 21 11:17:52 mickey|away: pong Oct 21 11:19:19 mickey|tw - trying to take over the channel with your presence, hm? ;) Oct 21 11:20:44 ScaredyCat, i wouldn't do that if i were you, might fill up your rootfs :p Oct 21 11:22:25 abraxa_: nah Oct 21 11:23:06 abraxa_: fresh image i get your "can't install gstreamer" message, however i believe all dependencies are installed. how can i check what exactly is missing? Oct 21 11:23:50 mickey|tw: Some gst elements are missing in /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10 like decodebin, playbin and volume Oct 21 11:24:05 Was going to harass XorA|gone about it Oct 21 11:24:10 ok, so the reason for not being able to make qemu is the lack of images Oct 21 11:24:19 * stefan_schmidt votes for blocking IRC during meetings Oct 21 11:24:30 but how is it possible if I do not get any error during building devel image? Oct 21 11:25:32 mickey|tw|meetin: Maybe it would be a good idea to have the dependencies in openmoko-mediaplayer2.bb as well Oct 21 11:37:50 bluelightning: hey Oct 21 11:39:24 hi zecke Oct 21 11:40:14 zecke: Do you already have plans/ideas/code for the feed reader's feed configuration through GConf? Oct 21 11:40:35 abraxa_: ideas yes. Using the GConf bridge from o-hand, plans no... Oct 21 11:42:58 zecke: Ah okay - it seems this feature would be nice to have soon but I don't want to cook up a patch and possibly interfere with your plans/ideas, hence my question Oct 21 11:43:08 abraxa_: go ahead! Oct 21 11:43:58 zecke: Okay - can you give me a pointer to the o-hand brige then so I can utilize it? I would've just used the GConf client directly Oct 21 11:44:27 abraxa_: http://projects.o-hand.com/libgconf-bridge Oct 21 11:44:37 Danke :) Oct 21 11:44:44 abraxa_: no idea if one can save a whole GtkListStore though Oct 21 11:45:42 I'll check it out Oct 21 11:45:49 a quick look at the source indicates it can Oct 21 11:46:21 Coolies Oct 21 11:47:56 mickey|tw|meetin: Turns out that gst-plugin-playbin isn't getting installed anymore even if gst-plugins-base is. Installing it via ipkg solves the issue Oct 21 11:49:08 (same goes for gst-plugin-decodebin and gst-plugin-volume) Oct 21 11:49:28 hmm Oct 21 11:49:35 installed playbin,decodebin,volume Oct 21 11:49:45 still "no decoder found -- internal data flow error" Oct 21 11:50:12 Can I see the contents of /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10? Oct 21 11:51:20 http://pastebin.ca/744361 Oct 21 11:52:45 mickey|tw: purely a question(not hassling in any way and not to be taken as such) hows the gpsd coming along and any ballpark of a release date? Oct 21 11:53:23 mickey|away: Only ones I see that could possibly be missing are gst-plugin-audioconvert and gst-plugin-audioresample Oct 21 11:53:34 Though obviously we wouldn't want to use them :) Oct 21 11:53:55 abraxa_: right. maybe i have local changes here in my tree Oct 21 11:54:07 xzcvczx: pending legal department writing an EULA Oct 21 11:54:21 could take days or years Oct 21 11:54:26 no idea, frankly Oct 21 11:54:37 mickey|tw: thanks.... dang lawyers :P Oct 21 11:57:03 mickey|tw: Any idea why gst-plugins-base broke for people now? (you're not the only one) Oct 21 11:57:27 If not I'll just harass XorA about it ;) Oct 21 11:57:54 can one burn a bootlable cd imsage onto a dvd? Oct 21 11:58:32 abraxa_: no idea offhand Oct 21 11:58:38 ewon: yup Oct 21 11:58:46 Okay, I'll take care of it Oct 21 11:58:53 excellent Oct 21 11:58:58 thanks Oct 21 12:02:19 * mickey|tw got it Oct 21 12:02:26 a typo :D Oct 21 12:02:29 REPENDS vs. RDEPENDS Oct 21 12:02:30 tssss Oct 21 12:03:09 * mickey|tw fixes Oct 21 12:06:59 ok haxors, thanks for help, maybe another update will help a bit :/ Oct 21 12:07:02 Peace. Oct 21 12:07:22 Peas Oct 21 12:17:41 mickey|tw: Awesome, thanks :) Oct 21 12:21:13 np Oct 21 12:21:22 didn't bother to check who broke it though Oct 21 12:23:01 mickey|tw: so you didn't do a daggy fix? Oct 21 12:23:57 svn blame Oct 21 12:23:58 !!1 Oct 21 12:25:35 mtn blame Oct 21 12:25:37 command not found Oct 21 12:25:47 annotate (and wait) ;) Oct 21 12:25:51 stupis mtn Oct 21 12:25:57 stupid Oct 21 12:26:23 ScaredyCat: don't talk about things you don't understand. Oct 21 12:26:35 if you put the mtn changes into svn ... then it would work Oct 21 12:28:08 I can talk about whatever i like, Oct 21 12:28:33 if mtn doesn;t have the equivalent of blame then it's pretty stupid Oct 21 12:29:06 wow, he is the first guy to enter my ignore list twice ;) Oct 21 12:29:21 good.. keep me there Oct 21 12:31:03 did I hear somthing about tinymail the other day mickey|tw ? Oct 21 12:31:04 ~blame koen for tyos Oct 21 12:31:05 * apt blames hs1 and perhaps koen for tyos and all the evil in the world Oct 21 12:31:06 typos, even Oct 21 12:31:13 ScaredyCat: blame and annotate are equivalent in svn Oct 21 12:31:29 as is praise Oct 21 12:31:30 ScaredyCat: yeah. very likely Oct 21 12:31:43 k, ta. alphaone.. Oct 21 12:32:01 good stuff mickey|tw seems like a good bet :D Oct 21 12:32:27 sorry, you mean equiv in svn and mtn ? Oct 21 12:32:53 mtn annotate does what svn {annotate,praise,blame} does Oct 21 12:32:59 k, ta Oct 21 12:34:08 the tinymail website is a little weird though :P Oct 21 12:52:34 yoink! that boot time is a lil slow :/ Oct 21 13:17:07 ScaredyCat: been charging for 3 hours or so, still no hint of life Oct 21 13:18:52 XXLT: have you been trying it? Oct 21 13:18:55 xx14: Oct 21 13:21:07 no, just now for the fisrt time in 3 hours Oct 21 13:22:57 cable can't be bad, i've been playing netradio on it whole day yesterday Oct 21 13:23:51 xx14: did you pull the battery first? Oct 21 13:25:02 yep... let it sit like that for 10 min Oct 21 13:27:02 i could measure voltage on the battery to see if it's completely empty... Oct 21 13:27:40 Probably not a bad plan. Oct 21 13:27:42 wasn't someone here working on getting the neo to charge with >40ma over usb? Oct 21 13:27:53 cb22: it's complex Oct 21 13:28:11 cbrake_away: to do it right at least. Oct 21 13:28:19 premature tabbing again? Oct 21 13:29:07 Not looking at the screen while tabbing. Oct 21 13:29:11 * cb22 wishes for an option: "yes i know this violates the usb spec, and no i dont care, and yes i want 500ma without negotiation" Oct 21 13:30:00 SpeedEvil: 3.8v what's the nominal? Oct 21 13:30:43 3.8V is about 20% charge Oct 21 13:30:48 maybe 30% Oct 21 13:30:54 Should boot absolutely fine. Oct 21 13:30:57 :/ Oct 21 13:31:03 ;( Oct 21 13:31:08 You haven't been flashing wierd stuff to it? Oct 21 13:32:17 nop Oct 21 13:32:40 You sure it's 3.9, not 2.9? 2.9 might be marginal Oct 21 13:33:01 i only flashed it once, in the very beginning... after that only ipkg Oct 21 13:33:42 * ewon is installing gutsy gibbon Oct 21 13:34:11 it's 3.8 with no load Oct 21 13:34:22 Sigh. Oct 21 13:35:57 Could a sim or memory card placed a bit wrong cause it to not start? Oct 21 13:35:58 so what are my options now? Find somebody with a devkit in the vicinity? Oct 21 13:36:20 xx14: that's a goo thought CM. I'd try reseating the SIM and microSD Oct 21 13:36:50 resetting? you mean to pull them out? Oct 21 13:36:52 Though I wouldn't have thought it'd do that. Oct 21 13:36:57 reseating Oct 21 13:37:00 Just know that my SE W610 refused to power on for a while, but after taking out and putting back the sim it worked.. Oct 21 13:37:01 to remove and replace them. Oct 21 13:38:31 pulled both cards out - nada Oct 21 13:38:53 :( Oct 21 13:41:53 put them back in - no change Oct 21 13:43:25 i don't suppose there is any kind of factory reset? Oct 21 13:43:45 Don't know of any when you don't even get into uboot Oct 21 13:43:51 Maybe the display is broken? Oct 21 13:44:10 That would be really difficult to tell.. Oct 21 13:44:15 thought about it, but it doesn't give a buzz, and no sound... Oct 21 13:44:26 It doesn't for me either Oct 21 13:44:41 And there's no led on the gta01's Oct 21 13:44:49 There are three. Oct 21 13:44:52 IIRC Oct 21 13:45:00 SpeedEvil: Inside? Oct 21 13:45:00 But, only in the backlight. Oct 21 13:45:14 for me it always spun the the vibro for a short moment on bootup Oct 21 13:45:19 I was thinking of the leds in the buttons that gta02 will have Oct 21 13:45:23 xx1 Oct 21 13:45:25 me too Oct 21 13:45:34 Hmm.. Maybe it does, haven't thought about it Oct 21 13:45:45 I rarely reboot anyway since that usually fails for me :P Oct 21 14:01:27 xx14: what I'd do is try leaving the battery out for 12h Oct 21 14:03:03 There are some caps in there? Oct 21 14:04:57 gah ... I guess I might as well bit the bullet and learn some python .. :/ Oct 21 14:06:49 after python, it's quite hard to go back to compiled languages ;) Oct 21 14:06:56 :/ Oct 21 14:07:09 I'm trying not to learn it, that and ruby... Oct 21 14:07:15 Why? Oct 21 14:07:23 I'm trying to pick up as many languages as I can Oct 21 14:07:37 I'm too old to be learning every language... Oct 21 14:07:49 Guess I was one of the few who actually liked ML in school :D Oct 21 14:08:46 Also, you can see in an instant if there's some old c coder who's written a piece of java code Oct 21 14:09:03 It's one class, 3 methods or so, and each 5000 lines long Oct 21 14:09:49 hehe Oct 21 14:10:33 after things like dictionaries, and the string handling and sets, going back to c++ is just a drag for me Oct 21 14:11:15 xx14: What about java or C#? Oct 21 14:13:29 hmm only did enough java to pass some basic programming course in school, didn't like it very much then, hadn't had any experience since... so i can't tell Oct 21 14:14:31 I'm a bit curious about vala, that could be something worth trying more Oct 21 14:16:11 when i started python, i thought it was a toy for scriptkiddies, but in the end i found it to be very nice Oct 21 14:17:05 I've only played around writing some web proxy and some load balancing prototypes in it, but it feels nice :) Oct 21 14:19:16 it's good for just about everything, except maybe lowlevel graphics primitives ;) especially on an underpowered device Oct 21 14:36:10 * Kliment pokes ScaredyCat Oct 21 14:36:39 mnneeehh!!1 Oct 21 14:37:08 hehe got your attention Oct 21 14:37:32 actually I wanted to ask how you set up your qtopis buildenv Oct 21 14:37:36 qtopia* Oct 21 14:37:59 I can't seem to find an instruction anywhere Oct 21 14:40:56 ScaredyCat: can you help? Oct 21 14:41:45 k, sorry for the delay, kde-window-decorator died on me :( - thankfully dircproxy to the rescue! Oct 21 14:41:56 * ScaredyCat pats mickey|tw on the back. Oct 21 14:42:15 Kliment: are you trying to use the .bb file ? Oct 21 14:43:01 ScaredyCat: Maing the baby burp? :P Oct 21 14:43:08 *making Oct 21 14:43:09 ScaredyCat: I'm starting from scratch here Oct 21 14:43:24 ScaredyCat: I have ubuntu Oct 21 14:43:40 *burp* Oct 21 14:43:47 ScaredyCat: I don't want to build the entire system if at all possible, I can't spare more than 3 or 4 GB Oct 21 14:44:16 I wont hold the fact that you have ubuntu against you ;( Oct 21 14:44:20 ;) even Oct 21 14:44:35 heh Oct 21 14:44:48 Greetings and Salutations Oct 21 14:45:13 basically, you need to setup a local overlay - then you can put stuff that you want to build in that. Oct 21 14:45:47 do I need to do the full system build for that or can I do an overlay by itself? Oct 21 14:46:13 I'd want to build qtopia and modify some things, and also add qt apps Oct 21 14:46:41 well, you could build the qtopia-phone part on its own but I don;t know how much extra it would bdeped on, you wouldn;t use the oe method Oct 21 14:46:46 KDE? Qtopia? why are people talking about such evil things? Oct 21 14:46:54 Re: gllin and the lawyers: lawyers are just like arcade games -- openmoko needs to keep feeding them coins and banging on them until the EULA pops out. Oct 21 14:47:06 loufoque: there's been a renewed interest in qtopia thanks to the Neo port Oct 21 14:47:09 mwester: Hehe Oct 21 14:47:10 you'd use the arm complier + the qtopia snapshots./ Oct 21 14:47:24 ok, so I get those from? Oct 21 14:47:39 ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/ Oct 21 14:47:48 ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/qtopia/ Oct 21 14:47:51 loufoque: some people feel it's the easiest platform to code on Oct 21 14:47:54 mickey|away: is it still better than openmoko? Oct 21 14:48:27 loufoque: kde + compiz (shock horror) on my laptop Oct 21 14:49:14 compiz, when you know that non-wobbly windows just don't feel right ;) Oct 21 14:49:25 I used to use compiz Oct 21 14:49:38 I used to leave it enabeld with all effects disabled Oct 21 14:49:38 turned out too problematic Oct 21 14:50:01 it made my laptop eat 20min more battery Oct 21 14:50:09 well, it's compiz-fusion now, and it seems a lot better, just occasionally flips out... Oct 21 14:50:23 were you using a 3d card or was the processor trying to do it all ? Oct 21 14:50:33 3d card Oct 21 14:50:40 hehe - my father-in-law was ranting about poor quality products the other day; I showed him my wobbly windows and told him that even software didn't have quality like they did in the old days... :D Oct 21 14:50:43 it was just the vsync that was doing it Oct 21 14:50:46 I only have an Intel 945GM in this one -works fine Oct 21 14:50:56 oh it works perfectly Oct 21 14:51:00 just eats my battery Oct 21 14:51:03 lol mwester Oct 21 14:51:43 Kliment: you need a portable power supply :) Oct 21 14:51:50 ScaredyCat: okay, I fetch the snapshot and what else Oct 21 14:51:53 ScaredyCat: sdk? Oct 21 14:51:58 yeah.. Oct 21 14:52:02 ScaredyCat: desktop? Oct 21 14:52:03 * CM took grapics classes at the university with David Reveman Oct 21 14:52:32 Compiz was his thesis work, too bad I missed his presentation Oct 21 14:52:37 he was in your class? Oct 21 14:52:41 Yes Oct 21 14:52:44 Some of them Oct 21 14:52:55 you skipped most ? :P Oct 21 14:53:08 Hehe, I studied both physics and computer science at the same time Oct 21 14:53:20 loufoque: it's different. better depends on your comparison factors Oct 21 14:53:43 * CM is MSc of Physics but have 3.5 years full time CS studies too Oct 21 14:54:09 * ScaredyCat is a bot, with no qualifications at all ;) Oct 21 14:54:17 qualifications are overrated Oct 21 14:54:22 Sure is Oct 21 14:54:28 It's what you do that matters Oct 21 14:54:36 ScaredyCat: do you run ubuntu or debian? Oct 21 14:54:41 * ewon is a B.Sc. Computer Systems (e.g. computer science with extras) Oct 21 14:54:55 mickey|away: is openmoko feature complute? Oct 21 14:55:02 Kliment: SuSe Oct 21 14:55:08 loufoque: no Oct 21 14:55:13 loufoque: I don't think it ever will be ;) Oct 21 14:55:24 right, quality time with SWMBO before my long drive .... Oct 21 14:55:25 bbl Oct 21 14:55:26 I mean, the fondation libraries Oct 21 14:55:28 ScaredyCat: any idea how to set the sdk up on ubuntu? Oct 21 14:55:51 loufoque: no. still a _very_ long way to go and rumours have it we might change the way Oct 21 14:55:56 looks like qtopia only believes in rpms Oct 21 14:56:16 mickey|away: change it how? Oct 21 14:56:25 loufoque: different goals Oct 21 14:56:30 dunno, all rumours Oct 21 14:56:35 know more next week Oct 21 14:56:57 wait, change what? Oct 21 14:57:57 abraxa_: shouldn't GST_DEBUG=something openmoko-mediaplayer give debug output for gst? Oct 21 14:59:08 mickey|tw: Did you see http://www.advogato.org/person/ensonic/diary/70.html Oct 21 15:01:14 mickey|away: It does - "GST_DEBUG=3 openmoko-mediaplayer" Oct 21 15:01:15 ya, pretty coool Oct 21 15:01:40 abraxa_: k, will build an update image and try again anyways. Oct 21 15:02:03 Sure thing :) Oct 21 15:03:22 mickey|tw: As you're working on that... mind bumping the sane_srcrevs for openmoko-mediaplayer2 and openmoko-theme-standard to recent revisions? Oct 21 15:03:43 which are? (i'm building with moko-autorev personally) Oct 21 15:03:52 I am, too ;) Oct 21 15:03:56 * abraxa_ checks revs Oct 21 15:06:39 mediaplayer2: 3230 / theme-standard2: 3210 Oct 21 15:07:40 pushign... Oct 21 15:08:11 Yay, thanks! Oct 21 15:10:17 how is the gsm work going on? Oct 21 15:10:41 and what will the wifi chip in GTA02 be? anything like atheros? Oct 21 15:11:13 atheros Oct 21 15:11:48 Maledictus: thx Oct 21 15:12:16 atheros 6k Oct 21 15:13:29 thanks Oct 21 15:14:41 edistar: I don't think there has been much progress on gsm; I get the feeling that the communiity awaits some guidance on what to do. (i.e. there's little point in trying to track down and patch issues if gsmd will be scrapped and rewritten entirely, for exazmple) Oct 21 15:14:56 er, example even. Oct 21 15:15:06 * mwester goes to fetch more coffee Oct 21 15:15:41 * sagacis has pushed the phone to the side until he knows what's going to happen with gsm. Oct 21 15:17:11 mwester: I thought maybe the core team would be working on gsm quite hard, as it seems to me that gsm is the most important part of a phone... ;) Oct 21 15:17:59 It certainly is a foundation component, but there are other parts that also are mandatory - such as power management Oct 21 15:19:13 you have a point.. Oct 21 15:20:48 without power management you cant even use it as pda Oct 21 15:27:35 anyone here had some experience with the debug board? Oct 21 15:28:15 No, no one at all... :P Oct 21 15:28:58 we're trying to 'revive' a dead neo, but it could be that the neo is dead because of the battery problem Oct 21 15:29:58 Tried having the battery out for 10 minutes, then put it back in and wait 1h? Oct 21 15:30:54 the question i have is do we have to see some sort of activity on the screen before we can reliably use the debug board? Oct 21 15:30:57 CM: You mean waiting 1h while loading it? Oct 21 15:31:47 abraxa_: Yes Oct 21 15:31:53 Or no.. Oct 21 15:32:01 I mean I emptied my battery totaly one time Oct 21 15:32:18 And taking it out for 10 min, then putting it back in and let it charge on usb for 1h Oct 21 15:32:24 got it back to life Oct 21 15:32:30 Enought to boot, and let it fast-charge Oct 21 15:32:52 Just making sure torpor wouldn't just put it back in and let it sit there :) Oct 21 15:33:11 no i know that problem .. Oct 21 15:33:38 xx14 also had trouble getting his neo to power on Oct 21 15:34:16 torpor: The CPU needs to be running to use the debug board - which happens around 2.8V if I remember correctly - at what voltage the backlight turns on I have no idea, however Oct 21 15:34:27 i always leave my neo battery in and am quite lazy about it, have gotten used to just waiting an hour before i want to use it again Oct 21 15:34:35 i surely wish the power management issue would get some priority though. Oct 21 15:34:54 abraxa_: thanks for the details, we'll give our neo's some time to charge and then give it a whirl .. Oct 21 15:35:57 someone need to write the missing downclocking bits Oct 21 15:36:08 and the gmsd-resume support Oct 21 15:36:18 then it should be quite reasonable Oct 21 15:48:27 mickey||tw: ignorance has never stopped me before; I'm willing to work on the power management if someone can offer some direction/advice/pointers on what to do Oct 21 15:48:33 :) Oct 21 15:49:04 * CM hands mwester a cookie Oct 21 15:49:13 * cb22 steals the cookie Oct 21 15:49:27 ~lart cb22 Oct 21 15:49:27 * apt hauls cb22 up by the scruff of the neck and spanks him until he waddles Oct 21 15:49:51 * cb22 runs away and has nightmares about evil bots called apt Oct 21 15:49:54 mickey|away: is the PMU chip the same for the Oct 21 15:49:56 good thing i run freebsd Oct 21 15:49:58 GTA02? Oct 21 15:50:32 * SpeedEvil is wondering about the PMU voltage granularity - 0.3V in GTA01 which causes less flexibility for undervolting. Oct 21 15:51:24 i think whats needed on the power side is some way of coordinating the power-change states in the distro .. Oct 21 15:51:32 like different init states for whatever power mode is being run under. Oct 21 15:51:40 what options to the compiler create faster apps/libs for the Neo? Oct 21 15:51:43 SpeedEvil: Was I right about 2.8V being the minimum for the CPU to run? Oct 21 15:51:52 abraxa_: well... Oct 21 15:51:57 the thing is there are various power modes available and combinations of those modes .. this can get confusing. but the standard unix handling is to put this feature in init states... Oct 21 15:52:11 torpor: bad. Oct 21 15:52:18 i don't see why? Oct 21 15:52:37 torpor: you want GTA02 going in and out of suspend-RAM between touches, if no screen animation. Oct 21 15:52:44 without a coordinating mechanism, such as init, there are too many ways for the power management to be corrupted by non-compliant apps.. Oct 21 15:52:53 SpeedEvil: no, not that granular. Oct 21 15:53:01 torpor: You want it _really_ lightweight. Oct 21 15:53:07 i mean, being able to say 'under low power mode, battery-conservation mode, these apps should not run' ... Oct 21 15:55:45 so you can put an init script onboard that gets triggered when the battery goes into ultra-saver mode, so your app doesn't consume more battery life, etc. Oct 21 15:56:04 We actually have several problems to solve as I understand it. The easiest problem (with good returns) would be to just ensure that the device no longer drains the battery when it powers itself off. Oct 21 15:56:09 You unfortunately don't want it in init. Oct 21 15:56:23 You need a portion of it in early u-boot. Oct 21 15:56:32 To cope with resume policy. Oct 21 15:56:43 After we get to that point, hopefully we'll have a lot fewer folks with the now-infamous dead-battery-can't-power-up-the-neo syndrome. Oct 21 15:57:18 but i don't see why it has to be in u-boot Oct 21 15:57:30 sleep is after all just another init state. Oct 21 15:57:59 Because in suspend-RAM the CPU is not active. Oct 21 15:58:02 i really think init should be being used properly at the distro level, and this is frustrating, because it isn't. Oct 21 15:58:07 The CPU boots into uboot. Oct 21 15:58:19 U-boot then resumes from RAM. Oct 21 15:58:48 u-boot needs to know under what conditions it should do this, and under which conditions it should simply go to sleep again. Oct 21 15:59:21 For example, you don't want to wakeup and go into linux if all you want is to log a byte from the serial port and go to sleep as fast as possible. Oct 21 15:59:23 SpeedEvil: couldn't this logic be placed in the kernel? Oct 21 15:59:38 that way it could be influenced by policy from userspace. Oct 21 15:59:43 this seems to be outofband and funky Oct 21 15:59:47 pH5: it can. The problem is that resume - starting up all the drivers will take time. Oct 21 15:59:50 what pH5 says Oct 21 16:00:00 CPU time = battery life. Oct 21 16:00:26 custom u-boot code to solve a linux problem == not being able to use linux solutions for the problem. Oct 21 16:00:50 SpeedEvil: that's right, linux could certainly use some early resume infrastructure. Oct 21 16:00:56 You are not in linux when the system is in suspend-RAM. Oct 21 16:01:24 You want the resume code to be _lightweight Oct 21 16:01:35 i guess the suspend-RAM issue is important because the CPU is asleep. Oct 21 16:01:43 Of course userspace can tell this what do do. Oct 21 16:01:45 yes. Oct 21 16:01:56 It uses simply horrible amounts of power if it's not completely off. Oct 21 16:02:15 but there are power management tools in linux already that should be exploitable Oct 21 16:02:34 either way, i wish there was some way for my app to know when the phone is in lower-power mode.. Oct 21 16:02:46 That's needed too of course. Oct 21 16:03:01 yay Oct 21 16:03:07 And you need some way to say 'I'm doing a task for the user, don't go to sleep'. Oct 21 16:03:13 abraxa_: with a new image, the mediaplayer works out of the box again. well done Oct 21 16:03:41 mickey|tw: Awesome, thank you too :) Oct 21 16:03:46 I don't see a way round it than a twisty maze of policy at diffeerent levels. Oct 21 16:05:26 init levels Oct 21 16:05:33 You've got the lowest level stuff that copes with stuff like (if this is possible) waking to check for bluetooth interrupts or to log GPS position every 5-60s or so, does shake detection, ... You've got the kernel drivers for all of this. You've got the userspace daemon that configures the kernel and talks to the apps, and you've got the apps themseves which have to talk to the daemon. Oct 21 16:06:48 The lowest level stuff much of it is running in u-boot or an equivalent, so it can powerdown the CPU again in as few milliseconds as possible. Oct 21 16:07:44 Unless we can get it up and actually running in linux really really rapidly. Oct 21 16:25:26 mickey|tw: Sean told me quite a while ago that OpenMoko, Inc. will pay license fees for mp3 playback. Do you have any idea if the same could happen for video codecs (e.g. MPEG/DivX) as well? Oct 21 16:26:33 (and wow, you're up late today) Oct 21 16:27:34 The power sag had to happen when ScaredyCat was about to explain the trick on how to compile qtopia... Oct 21 16:27:59 abraxa_: no idea actually Oct 21 16:28:03 well, it's 00:28 Oct 21 16:28:22 we'll think about it once our first device has the processing power to do it ;) Oct 21 16:28:35 Oh, only 6 hours? Could've sworn it were more Oct 21 16:28:49 Yeah, makes sense hehe Oct 21 16:29:08 abraxa_: We're still on summer time in europe aren't we? :-) Oct 21 16:30:22 we're all still hacking here Oct 21 16:30:22 CM: Ahh, don't ask such hard questions! Time zones are hard to manage in your head as it is :) Oct 21 16:30:25 stefan on qvga Oct 21 16:30:30 me on misc. stuff Oct 21 16:30:37 alphaone now on openezx Oct 21 16:30:50 mickey|tw: Rock on! Oct 21 16:31:00 I'm toying with video playback myself Oct 21 16:31:12 cool Oct 21 16:31:25 would be nice to have it working on gta01 even as tech.demo w/ 1 fps :D Oct 21 16:31:50 e.g. stefan's qvga patch will help a lot for that Oct 21 16:32:23 Yeah, definitely Oct 21 16:34:08 * stefan_schmidt mumbles something about hating pixclocks Oct 21 16:34:20 mickey|tw: thanks for fixing buildhost btw Oct 21 16:40:36 np Oct 21 16:42:02 mickey|tw: is alphaone *the* alphaone, of security services fame? Oct 21 16:42:36 torpor: probably not Oct 21 16:43:08 heh Oct 21 16:43:14 there are lots of alphaone's i suppose.. oh well. Oct 21 16:44:52 dfu-util question .. -a 3 = kernel, 5 = rootfs, right? Oct 21 16:45:35 torpor: For flashing a new rootfs/kernel? No need to use numeric IDs for that Oct 21 16:46:32 can i just give it the filenames and it'll work it out? Oct 21 16:47:50 torpor: http://rafb.net/p/IH7rdj30.html Oct 21 16:48:43 CoreDump: thanks Oct 21 16:50:52 np Oct 21 17:13:11 $ ps ax Oct 21 17:13:11 Unknown HZ value! (55) Assume 100. Oct 21 17:13:36 broken procps? Oct 21 17:14:09 morning Oct 21 17:14:30 or broken kernel? Everything feels slow Oct 21 17:14:31 mickey|tw: you're in my normal timezone, and I'm in the US. Oct 21 17:16:01 yeah, .tw makes it possible Oct 21 17:16:14 gsmd is in permanent 'D' state. Oct 21 17:17:42 wiping psplash, will reboot... Oct 21 17:23:27 blergh. it's printing those ^[[P strings again. Oct 21 17:24:00 is the midori build failing for anyone else? Oct 21 17:24:20 | document.h:48: error: expected ')' before '*' token Oct 21 17:24:24 this time X starts, tho. Oct 21 17:25:52 rwhitby: yes, midori builds also not for me Oct 21 17:26:24 mickey|tw: who looks after midori? Oct 21 17:26:50 neod at 100%, all the symptoms I had before. [events] is also rather busy. Oct 21 17:27:24 difference is I stripped console=ttySAC0 from kernel params, so I wasn't really expecting this... Oct 21 17:32:43 pretty much useless, once more. Why does my SIM upset my Neo so much? Oct 21 17:33:15 rwhitby: koen Oct 21 17:33:21 g'night Oct 21 17:33:33 (and why is an applet that is not even visible, functioning as a supervisor to gsmd?) Oct 21 17:38:59 something saturates [events/0] and neod. Even when the SIM is out, again. Oct 21 17:39:43 Xfbdev also uses a few % of the CPU (top uses the rest) Oct 21 17:42:05 mmm... I remember lots of "Connected to Network" popups earlier, when there was no SIM inserted. Oct 21 17:45:21 will have to phone w/ another phone :( Oct 21 17:51:58 does the gtk+-fastscaling replace gtk+ ? Oct 21 17:55:02 * rwhitby notices that buildhost has a lot of updated packages today Oct 21 17:55:28 three weeks worth of updates I expect. Oct 21 17:57:54 Ghiottone: that'd be my guess - that's why I'm trying now anyway Oct 21 17:59:02 rwhitby, upgrading all the packages seem to trigger out of disk space problems Oct 21 17:59:39 Ghiottone: not here. 97% on rootfs Oct 21 18:00:26 did you remove something? Oct 21 18:00:33 no Oct 21 18:01:12 so nothing in the phone is ready? Oct 21 18:01:35 the games work Oct 21 18:02:14 I like the new startup sound. Oct 21 18:02:29 well, I just need a terminal Oct 21 18:02:54 but I also need proper power management, and good foundation libraries Oct 21 18:03:03 the graphical apps don't really matter Oct 21 18:03:08 yes here is working too Oct 21 18:03:20 and scrolling seems more responsive Oct 21 18:03:30 * Ghiottone agrees on the startup sound Oct 21 18:13:57 * Kero would like a nice and stable gsm function... Oct 21 18:17:07 hmm - it says "Connected to network", and /tmp/gsm.log indicates everything is fine, but the icon in the titlebar still has a question mark Oct 21 18:17:28 hmm - the gsm icon no longer crashes things when you do stuff with it Oct 21 18:18:00 does that mean you've stopped molesting it? Oct 21 18:18:18 rwhitby: you seem to be behind events! I expected you to be ahead of them :) Oct 21 18:18:55 Kero: I'm on a 4 week overseas business trip. Oct 21 18:19:09 sweet :) Oct 21 18:19:33 (well, can be, depends a bit; I'll be trying 2x 3 weeks shortly) Oct 21 18:20:47 hmf. I'm gonna try the overnight-battery-out, as if it is such kind of a problem. Oct 21 18:21:13 otherwise, I'll have to reflash. Oct 21 18:22:40 Kero: Did you do "nand erase rootfs" before you flashed the current image? Oct 21 18:22:49 abraxa_: each and every time Oct 21 18:22:55 ah okay Oct 21 18:23:15 abraxa_: it's not the first time I see this behaviour, either. Oct 21 18:23:35 abraxa_: it starts when I insert my SIM Oct 21 18:24:27 and my phone (or image, or...) degrades, such that when I take the SIM out again, it's still no good Oct 21 18:30:28 so, concerning bug 788, are those patches being applied?? Oct 21 18:55:24 as good a time as any to update OM and complete my build of the image... Oct 21 19:17:47 Kero: Re 788 - I've seen no movement on that recently. I may just commit the latest patch into OE and let someone at openmoko take it out if it's a problem... Oct 21 19:18:10 You can find a pre-built kernel with that patch at http://moko.mwester.net/ Oct 21 19:21:53 mwester: sweet, might try that. Oct 21 19:26:06 any docs on libgsmd? Top entry in google is the gsmd page on the wiki, which has nothing. Oct 21 19:34:24 Kero since gsmd was a hack, is a hack, no there are no docs. there is the code you can read Oct 21 19:35:30 roh: don't say hack. Say code is law. ;) Oct 21 19:35:59 "Use the force - read the source" ;) Oct 21 19:36:06 zecke actually its worse.. hacks can be good. gsmd was never intended to go into any real use as it is. Oct 21 19:36:42 So, it would be a waste of time, then, to invest much effort in making it work better? Oct 21 19:37:12 * mwester wonders how soon a replacement might appear. Oct 21 19:37:59 mwester depends. just patching around on the symptoms doesnt help much i think. if you have fun rewriting the whole thing featurecomplete and meet the systems-architects expectations well.. then there is a replacement Oct 21 19:38:20 mwester i don't see anybody have enough time to enforce a rewrite soon Oct 21 19:38:48 I fear you are correct on all points. Unfortunately I'm not qualified to rewrite it. :( Oct 21 19:41:52 * Kero might be qualified, but certainly can not promise any time. Oct 21 19:42:32 well.. i'll have a meeting with harald this week, i'll put that onto my agenda (what happens with gsmd) Oct 21 19:42:33 I would think, FIC needs a reliable gsmd Oct 21 19:43:50 so why don't they write one. (priorities, always priorities...) Oct 21 19:44:10 Kero fic does not write any code here Oct 21 19:44:11 mwester: did you run that kernel yourself? Oct 21 19:44:16 * cb22 thinks bounties would be a nice idea for the big projects Oct 21 19:44:22 Kero: running it right now. Oct 21 19:44:31 no problems with it? Oct 21 19:44:45 Nothing it didn't have before I patched it :) Oct 21 19:44:57 At least AFIAK -- perhaps there are some bugs. Oct 21 19:44:58 (well, I didn't seem to have problems when I removed the ttySAC0 console param, now I have) Oct 21 19:45:40 Hmmm... what sort of problems (there was a recent re-spin of the patch to address issues when the console param was removed) Oct 21 19:46:50 inserted SIM, matchbox didn't even start. device seemed unbearably slow. Oct 21 19:47:07 removed SIM, more of the same. parts of matchbox started, but never displayed. Oct 21 19:47:19 gsmd seems hanging in 'D' state. Oct 21 19:47:42 Which kernel did you flash? Oct 21 19:48:06 rebooted, killed gsmd. [events/0] and neod share all of the CPU. Oct 21 19:48:26 few weeks old, handbuilt from OM/OE Oct 21 19:48:53 With the patches from bug 788, or not? Oct 21 19:50:17 without. Oct 21 19:50:42 ah, hand-built on Oct 13 or 14. The patch existed, but I did not apply it. Oct 21 19:51:03 Ok. I've not observed that problem. I don't run the stock kernel except when debugging stuff, but I've not seen those symptoms. Oct 21 19:51:19 `make clean` removed the kernel, I believe. don't have it on my build system anymore. Oct 21 19:51:52 You can try this kernel, this is the one that I'm running right now: http://moko.mwester.net/uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-neo1973.bin Oct 21 19:52:23 and I'm leaving the phone off until tomorow, to see if it helps (prolly not, but I'm stupified why this behaviour repeats itself, especially when I take the SIM out again) Oct 21 19:52:43 * Kero will try it tomorrow. Oct 21 19:52:53 *ponders* Oct 21 19:53:04 do I need 'nand erase kernel' Oct 21 19:53:14 just like nand erase rootfs ? Oct 21 19:53:23 * mwester answers Kero's pondering with "no". Oct 21 19:53:33 why not? Oct 21 19:55:20 The kernel is copied to RAM, and it doesn't matter what's in either the flash or the ram beyond the kernel. The rootfs is a filesystem, and JFFS2 expects to see empty space in the areas of that flash partition that are not data. Oct 21 19:56:15 The problem is that dfu-util does not properly clear out the final bits of the flash partition for the rootfs, so JFFS2 gets confused when it finds data where it expected to find emptyness. Oct 21 19:56:32 ok, clear. Oct 21 19:57:06 mwester: not dfu-util. that cannot do anything aout it. uboot needs to do the erase (and does for ages) Oct 21 19:57:36 Ah, ok - yes, dfu-util runs on the host side only. my mistake. Oct 21 19:58:06 and to be frank, jffs2 is quite stressfull in its behaviour.. like a crying baby which does not like any trouble around it Oct 21 19:58:09 roh: since which version? Oct 21 19:58:28 Kero uh.. need to look that up.. quite some time now Oct 21 19:58:44 Aria: cairo bindings for Ruby also work now :) Oct 21 19:58:55 Woot! Oct 21 19:59:06 roh: not important, I never took the risk and always erased. Oct 21 19:59:34 roh: at some point I'll want to update uboot, I'll locate a debugboard near me and do it. Oct 21 20:00:52 Aria: takes a horrible 8 seconds to load, tho. Oct 21 20:00:59 2632 i think Oct 21 20:01:14 and not the faintest idea how I could optimize. Oct 21 20:01:26 Kero as long as you flash a uboot which somebody tested i do not see any big risk Oct 21 20:01:47 Hrm Oct 21 20:01:49 That blows Oct 21 20:02:06 roh: true. I assume there is a checksum mechanism before uboot encourages reboots :) Oct 21 20:02:19 Surprises me too, since nothing involved is that biug Oct 21 20:03:42 Aria: yeah. I'm wondering whether there's a compiler option that should be used Oct 21 20:03:57 haven't had a chance to see what takes most time Oct 21 20:04:14 Kero i dunno for sure, but i think the dfu trailer contains also a checksum. its mainly there and only at the uboot to make sure you do not flash a uboot for gta01bv2 onto a bv4 and brick it Oct 21 20:04:43 but, loading takes 0.3 seconds on my laptop, which is not zero. The multiplication of 20 is not that weird... Oct 21 20:04:51 No, true. Oct 21 20:04:58 I'd love to know what the delay is Oct 21 20:05:04 Is it CPU bound? Oct 21 20:06:08 dunno. will find out. got a higher priority on a fresh image now (SIM/gsmd messed up) Oct 21 20:06:28 * Aria nods. Oct 21 20:07:09 (ruby -rprofile, that'll be slow :) Oct 21 20:09:09 Aria: http://chmeee.dyndns.org/om/native_eggclock.png Oct 21 20:09:26 (oy) Oct 21 20:09:30 Nice Oct 21 20:23:02 hi Oct 21 20:23:25 anyone awake? Oct 21 20:24:12 Nope Oct 21 20:24:16 lol Oct 21 20:24:39 I'm trying to get sound to work on my neo1973 Oct 21 20:24:48 ..but? Oct 21 20:24:55 its not working Oct 21 20:25:09 Using OpenMoko or Qtopia? Oct 21 20:25:14 ogg123 thiks its playing, but there is no sound Oct 21 20:25:27 openmoko, theres another os for it??? Oct 21 20:25:28 Ah, OM - did you restore one of the ALSA sound states? Oct 21 20:25:49 I don't think so Oct 21 20:26:06 Try an "alsactl -f /etc/stereoout.state restore" Oct 21 20:27:00 abraxa_, thanks :) Oct 21 20:27:04 its working now Oct 21 20:27:09 Good :) Oct 21 20:27:16 whats Qtopia? Oct 21 20:27:44 As about your OS question - yes, Trolltech released their Qtopia environment under GPL which means it can be run on the Neo as well Oct 21 20:28:17 is it any better as in further forward than OM? Oct 21 20:29:01 Well, it has been in development for several years now, so yes Oct 21 20:29:45 OM will eventually catch up, though Oct 21 20:30:03 any posibility to mix and match? Oct 21 20:30:36 Nope - it's basically the old "GNOME vs. KDE" discussion all over again Oct 21 20:30:38 about the same possibilities as mixing and matching gnome and kde software ;) Oct 21 20:30:58 abraxa_ well-. that would be childish ;) Oct 21 20:31:22 roh: But that's what it boils down to Oct 21 20:31:27 some backends could be shared? I bet there's iCal underneath (or at least available in) both Oct 21 20:31:45 i see it more as 'we now have country AND western.. and one band plays for drinks only' Oct 21 20:31:51 LOL Oct 21 20:32:18 I love that - even if I can't stand either music style ;D Oct 21 20:32:19 Kero atm nothing besides the kernel gets shared Oct 21 20:32:37 abraxa_ ;) Oct 21 20:32:38 roh: not even some gsm stuff? Oct 21 20:32:42 nope. Oct 21 20:32:52 what do they use? can we steal that? Oct 21 20:33:09 "steal", heh Oct 21 20:33:17 Kero trolltech just portet their gui to be useful without any hardkeys Oct 21 20:33:20 it's GPL, we can steal Oct 21 20:33:45 "stealing" free software - it's an interesting paradoxon :) Oct 21 20:33:54 Kero wel.. that woulndt make much sense from an architectural view Oct 21 20:34:00 Kero: Qtopia GSM and lower levels are not LGPL. They cannot be used with proprietary applications without paying license fees to Qtopia. Oct 21 20:34:14 Writcie: curse them :( Oct 21 20:34:33 they are entitled to their business model. Oct 21 20:34:37 not that I'm using prop appls ? Oct 21 20:35:32 some people insist on the ability to run a proprietary app whould one come along and provide sufficient value for money to them. Oct 21 20:35:43 s/whould/should/ Oct 21 20:35:43 Writchie meant: some people insist on the ability to run a proprietary app should one come along and provide sufficient value for money to them. Oct 21 20:36:39 money is overrated. Oct 21 20:36:45 lol Oct 21 20:36:47 so for some (if not many) people an lgpl like foundation is better than a GPL non-commerical license Oct 21 20:37:11 Writchie: you can run as many proprietary apps on Qtopia as you want... the (L)GPL is about distribution... Oct 21 20:37:20 roh: what do you mean with "not much sense from an architectural view"? Oct 21 20:37:53 in other words, you can take the Qtopia GSM module and adapt it to neo. There is just no hope of it becoming a standard part of OM Oct 21 20:37:58 zecke: to run it you have to get it "distributed" to you Oct 21 20:38:18 wow thats some stereo separation they got going on in the neo, I wonder how long someone sat there designing the speaker system Oct 21 20:38:45 Writchie: still, you can build and run your proprietary apps. If you want to distribute/sell you have to make a choice. Either contribute to FreeSoftware or pay a fee Oct 21 20:38:46 oryn: it gone in GTA02 - only one speaker Oct 21 20:39:06 and I wonder how long that person cried for when they removed one speaker for the wifi Oct 21 20:39:12 the app should be MIT licensed anyway, so the decision is a no-brainer Oct 21 20:40:35 has anyone actualy made a phone call on their neo yet? Oct 21 20:40:50 yes - many Oct 21 20:40:54 wow Oct 21 20:41:08 mostly using the Qtopia load or command line. Oct 21 20:41:09 every time O put a sim card in mine nothing happens Oct 21 20:41:23 0=i Oct 21 20:41:43 I hate this keyboard Oct 21 20:41:46 two, with myself. The one I wanted to make today fsckered my Neo. Oct 21 20:42:47 I'm trying the lastest build on OM Oct 21 20:43:00 after I fixed the librarys Oct 21 20:43:04 it boots Oct 21 20:43:13 Kero wel.. the architecture of om and qtoptia differs in some key points, and ripping stones from one and use it on the other with some kind of wrapper to make it fit is a worse solution Oct 21 20:43:49 for some reason some of the libs instead of symlinks were empty dirs Oct 21 20:50:59 does anyone know if there comes a \r or a \n or both from the GSM modem when it says RING ? Oct 21 20:54:11 matsimoto: spec requires Oct 21 20:54:39 Does it follow spec? Oct 21 20:54:44 Writchie: thanks ! Oct 21 20:54:44 yes Oct 21 20:55:13 additional after ring depends on how responses have been set up with previous commands Oct 21 20:56:15 so how does on get the gsmd to register its self? Oct 21 20:58:11 oryn: its pretty well covered in the wiki. - +COPS command - see gsm 7.07 Oct 21 20:58:46 oryn: you can also look at the gsmd initialization code. Oct 21 21:01:13 Writchie, all I wana do is just test my hardware Oct 21 21:02:47 oryn: then your best bet for now is probably to load Qtopia. Oct 21 21:03:55 oryn: there are dozens of things you could load up and play with - most of them broken in one way or another. Oct 21 21:08:06 oryn: I can you that the original Qtopia load basically worked after setting the audio. It was functional for voice calls and SMS but the PM issues still made it unuasable as a phone except for a couple hours at a time. Oct 21 21:08:26 I see Oct 21 21:08:26 s/unuasable/unusable/ Oct 21 21:08:27 Writchie meant: oryn: I can you that the original Qtopia load basically worked after setting the audio. It was functional for voice calls and SMS but the PM issues still made it unusable as a phone except for a couple hours at a time. Oct 21 21:08:57 thats quite funny, you have apt bot in here :) Oct 21 21:17:57 gsmd doesn't seem to work very well, or I'm doing something wrong Oct 21 21:20:58 oryn: Yes it doesn't - yet Oct 21 21:21:11 :) Oct 21 21:22:22 I seem to have a broken media player too, its complaining about gstreamer Oct 21 21:22:50 failed to initialise Oct 21 21:23:50 it does totaly support my 4G microSD though, which I'm very pleased about Oct 21 21:24:12 the wiki said noone has tested that as yet Oct 21 21:24:42 oryn, abraxa's a better responder, but you may have to manually install gst-plugin-openmoko or something like that. Oct 21 21:24:45 oryn: mediaplayer works fine for me Oct 21 21:25:50 oryn: they have made some fixes today Oct 21 21:29:07 it thinks its all up to date Oct 21 21:29:18 oryn 4g was tested.. but not 8 (not avail) Oct 21 21:29:48 roh ahh Oct 21 21:30:00 roh, how about 6gb? Oct 21 21:30:20 sagacis: also not avail.. and ive also not heard about that strange size Oct 21 21:30:36 who should build such a thing Oct 21 21:30:36 You can buy it now. Tiger Direct and other places. Oct 21 21:30:41 sizes seem to follow base2 Oct 21 21:30:58 6gs sounds like 8gb ones with lots of bad blocks Oct 21 21:31:04 Sandisk Oct 21 21:31:05 lol Oct 21 21:31:13 http://meritline.stores.yahoo.net/sandisk-6gb-microsd-sdhc-memory-card.html Oct 21 21:31:33 heh... Oct 21 21:31:47 sagacis_ they announced 4, then 8gb and even in taiwan you could not buy one. the only and first one we got was 4gb Oct 21 21:31:52 3 x 2gb in one card? Oct 21 21:32:09 which is ok. because everything > 2gb needs sdhc which was what we want to test. Oct 21 21:32:10 the 6gb's just came out Oct 21 21:32:31 The 8gb's are supposed to be available in the spring, officially Oct 21 21:32:48 well-.the pressrelease said otherwise Oct 21 21:33:05 Otherwise? Maybe I should read another press release. Oct 21 21:34:37 hi sagacis: 6g works just fine http://pastebin.ca/744886 Oct 21 21:34:52 Cool. I'll have to spring for one pretty soon. Oct 21 21:38:48 sagacis announced for fall 07 .. hmm Oct 21 21:46:40 note HCSD will not be supported by GTA02 IIRC Oct 21 21:47:24 hcsd? Oct 21 21:47:26 I wonder why not? Oct 21 21:47:38 ...will csd be? Oct 21 21:48:20 Vegar: High Capacity SD card Oct 21 21:48:25 which is ok. because everything > 2gb needs sdhc which was what we want to test. Oct 21 21:48:36 Writchie: oh, wait, GTA02 Oct 21 21:49:04 oh, i've read hscsd... Oct 21 21:49:15 * abraxa_ notes that gstreamer's video performance is horrendous on GTA01 Oct 21 21:49:27 unrotated, or rotated? Oct 21 21:49:35 I wonder if it will have a quick change slot loader Oct 21 21:49:52 no IIRC Oct 21 21:49:54 same slot Oct 21 21:50:08 SpeedEvil: Unrotated, scaled to postage stamp size. gstreamer seems a tad bloated. Oct 21 21:50:16 Writchie: why did they change that? Oct 21 21:50:19 I've not used it. Oct 21 21:50:43 wifi and accelerated video Oct 21 21:50:57 compromises Oct 21 21:51:11 oh man.. Oct 21 21:51:15 that's sad Oct 21 21:51:54 I'm not bothered about video, its sound I like Oct 21 21:52:13 Sound is unaffected. Oct 21 21:52:18 Erll, that's not true Oct 21 21:52:24 There is only one speaker. Oct 21 21:52:27 its going mono Oct 21 21:52:31 Well that's not true Oct 21 21:52:32 Writchie: I thought it was SDIO they dropped, not HCSD support Oct 21 21:53:46 anyone know why they turned off the penguin on boot up? Oct 21 21:53:47 Hey, quick Q while I have everything unplugged and rebuilding the SDK, is gcc for the Neo built as -eabi or as -gnueabi? Oct 21 21:53:55 I though it was both, although I could be mistaken. Oct 21 21:54:01 the wiki says HCSD is supported by GTA02.. Oct 21 21:54:08 whaatwhatwhat, no SDHC? Oct 21 21:54:14 irgh.. please do not confuse any abbreviations.. gsm and it has just too many of them Oct 21 21:54:19 Aria: OE states TARGET_OS = "linux-gnueabi" Oct 21 21:54:30 Woot, thank you. Oct 21 21:54:42 * Aria is trying to build an OEless build kit, using her distro's cross packages. Oct 21 21:54:43 I mean, okay, I know the SD card slot is wired to the GPU on GTA02, and that could presumably screw it up, but, oh, please no Oct 21 21:55:08 If microSD now is limited to 2GB, that is a _hideous_ oops. Oct 21 21:55:22 gta02 will of course support sdhc.. what sense would it make to do that for gta01 and not for gta02. and yes the simcard/microsd-socket is beeing changed to a new one, but no, no case changes, thus no hot-swap Oct 21 21:55:22 However, it's at worst another board spin. Oct 21 21:55:34 :) Oct 21 21:55:46 Thanks, roh Oct 21 21:55:52 roh: does GTA02 support SDIO? Oct 21 21:56:04 SpeedEvil yes. wifi is connected to it. Oct 21 21:56:09 roh, okay. You were an at OM inc, iirc? Oct 21 21:56:16 (just to make that official) Oct 21 21:56:21 roh: I mean - the port to which the microSD is connected. Oct 21 21:56:23 SpeedEvil: Harald said no Oct 21 21:56:36 roh: not the internal SoC port. Oct 21 21:56:36 SpeedEvil on the microsd-socket, i dunno.. whatfor? there is no space to even run wires out there Oct 21 21:56:54 SpeedEvil: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/neo1973-hardware/2007-October/000260.html Oct 21 21:57:02 * mjr is quite okay with no external sdio, no external sdhc would've been... horrid. Oct 21 21:57:02 roh: can get a flex cable out. Oct 21 21:57:27 (probably, I haven't seen a GTA02) Oct 21 21:57:28 no space left on device Oct 21 21:57:29 wtf? Oct 21 21:57:30 SpeedEvil nope. not without making the simcard connectors flakey i think Oct 21 21:57:38 how are we supposed to put the modules onboard these days? Oct 21 21:57:39 (external in the sense of wired to the slot, of course) Oct 21 21:57:50 :/ Oct 21 21:57:53 Oh well. Oct 21 21:58:05 SpeedEvil besides that, there is spi an extra irq and i2c on testpads AND the debugport... extensions should go there. Oct 21 21:58:21 SpeedEvil the microsd slot is really needed for extra memory Oct 21 21:58:28 roh: we had heard that sdhc wasn't being supported because on the gta02 wlan uses the spare sd i/o pins .. Oct 21 21:58:38 torpor, that's silly then Oct 21 21:58:50 wlan in GTA02 is off the video accellerator Oct 21 21:59:07 SpeedEvil, wasn't it the other way around (wlan on soc, card on GPU)? Oct 21 21:59:15 sheesh Oct 21 21:59:22 err - yes Oct 21 21:59:24 either way lets hope we don't end up with borked wlan.. Oct 21 21:59:30 err - I dunno. Oct 21 21:59:34 torpor i dunno for sure about sdhc behind the graphics-chip, but i think we will find a way. its clearly needed. Oct 21 21:59:36 and: what about the onboard modules in moko? how is this filesystem full already? Oct 21 21:59:36 roh? :) Oct 21 21:59:55 torpor: it's getting close to full. Oct 21 21:59:57 SpeedEvil the wireless is connected to the cpu, not the gpu. Oct 21 22:00:06 mjr ? Oct 21 22:00:12 roh: thansk. Oct 21 22:00:17 SpeedEvil: in my case its totally full. Oct 21 22:00:26 i suppose i should set up the sd card as a new destination for apps then .. Oct 21 22:00:30 torpor: gta02 has twice the base memory Oct 21 22:00:46 SpeedEvil: gta01 is sitting in front of me, and isn't vapor. Oct 21 22:01:40 c'mon this inability to make the gta01 work in any capacity 'just coz gta02 is coming and its cool and all the decisions are being made on the basis of vapor hardware' is frustrating as hell. i could care less about gta02. i want gta01 working before i invest any more in openmoko hardware. Oct 21 22:01:52 roh, just asking for verification on what you just verified, that is, the wlan/card SD hookups :) Oct 21 22:02:06 torpor: If you don't mind being unable to use WebKit you can zap /usr/lib/libWebKitGtk.so.* and libicudata.* - gives you 18 megs Oct 21 22:02:26 should i just move over to booting off SD then? maybe thats better. Oct 21 22:02:42 torpor: you can just put /usr/local onto the media card Oct 21 22:02:44 abraxa_: no i want webkit, alas. Oct 21 22:02:54 Have I to pay to be able to receive the GPS signal? Oct 21 22:02:59 there is no /usr/local Oct 21 22:03:06 no davi Oct 21 22:03:09 davi: yes Oct 21 22:03:14 davi: yes, for a phone that doesn't have a borked and closed-source GPS driver. Oct 21 22:03:19 i will send you my address so you can send me money Oct 21 22:03:33 then i will send you a gps signal license Oct 21 22:03:49 or, if you're a us citizen, you already pay for it Oct 21 22:03:54 via your taxes Oct 21 22:04:08 seriously openmoko people, this is a real mess. i'm being hindered by a complete lack of any responsible decision making on getting the gta01 functioning and functioning properly. when is there going to be an openmoko distribution person making real decisions and serving as a target for this ire? Oct 21 22:04:21 So, it just as the satelite signal, not coded. I buy the hardware, and no more payments? Oct 21 22:04:29 right Oct 21 22:04:30 davi: yes Oct 21 22:04:33 davi: right Oct 21 22:04:41 thanks all Oct 21 22:04:42 3 months later, same battery life issue. same non-working GPS. same non-working phone functions. Oct 21 22:04:59 put down your pretty gta02 kits and fix the openmoko distro, yo!! Oct 21 22:05:03 ckuethe: Too bad he completely ignored you. It was a nice try ;) Oct 21 22:05:31 torpor: everyone's working on getting the GTA02 hardware done Oct 21 22:05:38 torpor it seems you have no clue why gta01 was ever sold Oct 21 22:05:43 I'm still struggling with OE. I'd be contributing code already if it was easier. C I know, GTK I know. Bitbake and OE is a huge brickwall to the learning curve. Oct 21 22:06:00 Aria: Anything we can help with? Oct 21 22:06:18 OE? Oct 21 22:06:19 Vegar: i know that. Oct 21 22:06:30 abraxa_: Broken builds every time I try, changing like quicksand. Oct 21 22:06:38 roh: i thought it was being sold to attract developers who want to work on 3rd party apps for an open phone .. Oct 21 22:06:44 abraxa_: That and it takes DAYS to compile, because the focus is on images, not packages. Oct 21 22:06:52 And it insists on building software I already have natively Oct 21 22:07:10 torpor: No, to develop the platform _and_ apps Oct 21 22:07:12 aria be patient Oct 21 22:07:39 well thats my point: the platform is borked. its not progressing for the gta01, its progressing for non-existent hardware. Oct 21 22:07:42 Heh, I am patient. Just frustrated that I can't seem to get a sane set of tools built that aren't beyond complex. Oct 21 22:07:46 torpor it was sold because people demanded it and we could not just give them away for free to everybody. if it was for some people from the coreteam they would never been sold. just because software is not ready Oct 21 22:07:46 Aria: Of course, it cross-compiles them for the Neo. However I found that doing incremental updates works better than nuking the entire build/tmp directory every week Oct 21 22:08:05 abraxa_: Not perl-i686. I have that, yet it insists on building it. (And last time, that was the one that failed) Oct 21 22:08:09 we gta01 users can't be expected to just toe the line because you guys have gta02's. its frustrating all efforts to write apps for this envrionment, that changes are bieng made to bork the *existing* hardware. Oct 21 22:08:28 GTA02 is a driver change. Oct 21 22:08:34 Almost no core software changes. Oct 21 22:08:42 horseshit Oct 21 22:08:43 abraxa_: I'm just frustrated by the build process that insists on setting up its own cleanroom installs of stuff. Oct 21 22:08:46 torpor on the contrary we recieve encouragement from people who would have beought a arm9 develkit elsewise and now use a gta01 and are happy.. which is kinda funny Oct 21 22:08:51 Aria: I see your point Oct 21 22:08:52 No, really, torpor. Just drivers. Oct 21 22:09:05 there are huge differences in the software base package between gta02 and gta01, if the gta01 filesystem is full right now "because everyone has gta02's".. Oct 21 22:09:06 torpor: it is really just drivers. Apart from video. Oct 21 22:09:27 this is just horse crap Oct 21 22:09:31 in't there an sdk toolchain available? Oct 21 22:09:33 its not 'just drivers' Oct 21 22:09:35 abraxa_: And it's not like building a distro is unfamiliar -- I'm a maintainer of a large linux distro. Aside from the cross-compilation, it's a similar goal. It's just that the OE tools are ten times as complex Oct 21 22:09:44 its 'more drivers', 'more apps' being included, because the filesystem is larger too .. Oct 21 22:10:00 torpor gta02 runs the exact same kernel and userland as gta01. so youre clearly wrong there. Oct 21 22:10:05 Heh, such minor changes. I have plenty of space on my 01 filesystem Oct 21 22:10:07 aria suffer through a build first, complete a successful image build, then do daily increments. Oct 21 22:10:19 i've been doing just that for months and yes it is a hassle, but you can manage it. Oct 21 22:10:33 torpor: Yeah, but the build is broken every time I try. For weeks, perl-native wouldn't build. Oct 21 22:10:46 I have to get different native software to build the native software to build OE Oct 21 22:10:48 roh: if gta01 is currently suffering under a totally fully filesystem, and won't therefore *work*, because gta02 has more storage, then there *ARE* differences. get the point. Oct 21 22:10:52 It's just frustrating dependency hell Oct 21 22:10:56 Aria: Not going to argue that, it's totally true. I'm however more interested in solving any hands-on problems you might have ;) Oct 21 22:11:12 abraxa_: HEhe, okay. I'll let you know how getting my external cross-compiler working is ;-) Oct 21 22:11:31 so who is the new openmoko dude to handle these issues? Oct 21 22:11:42 torpor there are less than 10 gta02 devices that work that far to get to the userland. so you clearly fucked something up in your build. everyone including the coreteam develops with gta01 Oct 21 22:11:52 abraxa_: 'cause if I can distribute easy-to-build RPMs for cross utils, then I suspect I can get someone a working SDK faster than I can with OE Oct 21 22:11:54 because i think i might suggest to the community that openmoko suffer the indignities of a *FORK* just to get the gta01 hardware working. Oct 21 22:12:00 only the few people who do driver work on gta02 touch it at all atm Oct 21 22:12:11 abraxa_: And when all you want to do is hack apps, hooking the whole build system is pointless. Just build your app and be done. Oct 21 22:12:35 43237376 Oct 21 23:08 openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01.jffs2 Oct 21 22:12:48 torpor please stop the FUD when you do not know whats happening or ignore the facts (which you can read up in the source released already) Oct 21 22:12:49 /dev/mtdblock4 61.1M 46.7M 14.4M 76% / Oct 21 22:13:17 torpor: Yes, and? It fits. Oct 21 22:13:27 (... and you can always use SD) Oct 21 22:13:31 roh: godamnit i have been tracking this project every day for months, both on the lists, on the wiki, on this channel. and i'll be damned if there aren't more and more problems every day that are getting in the way of really getting some serious code *written*, not just ported. Oct 21 22:13:47 Aria: thats without a /lib/modules dir .. Oct 21 22:14:04 * rwhitby gets out the popcorn ... Oct 21 22:14:06 And the modules for a GTA01bv4 are what? Oct 21 22:14:12 what openmoko needs right now is a stable, predictable release schedule. please get someone on that! Oct 21 22:14:18 torpor it seems you did not update your oe/om quite some time. we renamed gta01 components in oe about a week ago since they are not different from gta02 to neo1973 (both gta01 and gta02 are neo1973) Oct 21 22:14:19 Critical device drivers, 100k, filesystems and networking, 2mb? Oct 21 22:14:31 Aria: -rwx------ 1 j j 24633099 Oct 21 23:08 modules-2.6.22.5-moko11-r3-neo1973.tgz Oct 21 22:14:47 * Aria shrugs. Oct 21 22:14:53 And you need what part of that? Oct 21 22:15:07 whatever part is supposed to be stable and available to developers to rely on. Oct 21 22:15:30 i thought someone was creating a sdk toolchain you could use Oct 21 22:15:37 probably they are full of symbols and debugging information Oct 21 22:15:49 ljp: mickey's on it but didn't finish yet Oct 21 22:16:36 roh: update my oe/om? you mean 'make update', or something else? Oct 21 22:16:37 there is a toolchain at qtopia.net but it wont have gtk/x11 headers and such Oct 21 22:16:54 torpor OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-September-Snapshot-20071016-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 Oct 21 22:17:04 43024384 bytes Oct 21 22:17:27 fits wonderful Oct 21 22:17:34 including modules? Oct 21 22:17:47 Which modules do you need, torpor? Oct 21 22:17:53 torpor the modulesa re already in there (the ones you need) Oct 21 22:17:58 I mean, it's not like you need nvidia.ko or anything... Oct 21 22:18:04 my /lib/modules is empty. i got a modules*tar.gz file. Oct 21 22:18:10 the modules-2.6.22.5-moko11-r3-neo1973.tgz does contain ALL modules. you do not need them all Oct 21 22:18:57 * CM grabs some of rwhitby's popcorns :) Oct 21 22:19:08 what are the base modules in the list then? why must i decide that? isn't that supposed to be an openmoko decision? and if so, what is the list? i need a reliable distro to develop for; i don't need to be making OS decisions for my end users. Oct 21 22:19:33 too much generics, not enough responsible final packaging. its overdue. Oct 21 22:19:35 http://clay.ll.pl/osmo/ # Fun -- might work well on the Neo Oct 21 22:19:50 torpor well.. all modules i ever needed on the device were installed to the base-filesystem when buiulding it. Oct 21 22:20:04 sound? Oct 21 22:20:04 torpor: Heh. Fud. What do you need that the kernel doesn't have? Oct 21 22:20:14 Sound is in the base image... Oct 21 22:20:23 doesn't work here. Oct 21 22:20:26 sounds working nice here on the last image i tested Oct 21 22:20:39 the image i built today: no sound. no alsa cards found. Oct 21 22:20:51 * fgau need also popcorn and sauerstoff :) Oct 21 22:20:54 Yeah, last image I tested too. Oct 21 22:20:57 torpor as i said.. something on your builds is snafu Oct 21 22:21:08 but okay, fine, i'll rebuild from scratch overnight and see how things are tomorrow. Oct 21 22:21:10 * CM also have a nicely working Neo Oct 21 22:21:41 well. i will update an kick off a new build here to test that.. but please be patient.. umts only for me Oct 21 22:21:43 * Aria has a 'nicely working Neo' where 'nicely working' includes some PM issues, and the GSM being dodgy still, but still... it works. Oct 21 22:22:01 I just think that september was a slow month, probably mroe regressions than improvements, but the last 3 weeks have been good I think Oct 21 22:22:12 * fgau have a nicely working Neo with openmoko Oct 21 22:22:18 Aria: All is relative.. ;-) Oct 21 22:22:27 F. Shure Oct 21 22:22:34 ha. "some PM issues", how many hours on battery? "GSM dodgy", you bet... Oct 21 22:22:40 by nicely working neo do you mean GPS works too? Oct 21 22:22:53 torpor: Nope, but I blame that on the lawyers Oct 21 22:22:56 Nope. GPS still needs a binary blob. Oct 21 22:23:01 And fucking lawyers. Mrrr. Oct 21 22:23:09 sorry but that is whack. Oct 21 22:23:22 nobody thinks its important to have working GPS? Oct 21 22:23:29 reality can be whack Oct 21 22:23:30 What's whack? Legal issues? Agreed ;-) Oct 21 22:23:41 Yeah, it's important. Less important to me than GSM though Oct 21 22:23:44 whack that nobody is working on gps for the gta01. Oct 21 22:23:50 but i'm sure there's plenty going on for gta02 isn't there, eh? Oct 21 22:24:02 torpor: What's to work on? It needs a closed-source blob that's held up in legal. Oct 21 22:24:10 torpor: Whereas GTA02 has a different chipset. Oct 21 22:24:11 torpor: If they change to a supported chip, there's no work needed Oct 21 22:24:13 torpor its totally inimportant what we think or do. as long as no lawyer completes the fscking licence text we cannot release gllin, not even oabi Oct 21 22:24:13 there is work going on on GTA01 gps Oct 21 22:24:18 isn't there? Oct 21 22:24:24 sounded like there was on the ML Oct 21 22:24:35 doc|home: You mean an open driver? Oct 21 22:24:38 its just PR to keep the list traffic under control. Oct 21 22:24:42 http://adjaxio.miniville.fr/ Oct 21 22:24:44 dog: not really Oct 21 22:24:45 ah, wel, that's a whooooole different thing Oct 21 22:24:47 torpor: Evidence of that is where? Oct 21 22:24:48 doc|home: not really Oct 21 22:24:57 Aria: no gps driver. Oct 21 22:25:05 doc|home: it's kind of stalled - as GTA02 has come out with a different chip. Oct 21 22:25:09 torpor: So? That's quite the leap. Oct 21 22:25:27 SpeedEvil: there is a driver, closed, for the GTA01, so, *shrug*, is it that big a deal? Oct 21 22:25:32 doc|home: hence in the lack of development funds, the development effort for only maybe 200 users that may use it, ... Oct 21 22:25:33 all i'm asking is for some sanity on the distro builds so that things start to work. Oct 21 22:25:45 I mean, the gta01 was always meant as a dev device Oct 21 22:25:45 * Aria is all for simpler builds Oct 21 22:25:53 SpeedEvil: exactly Oct 21 22:25:55 doc|home: in principle yes. The GPS in GTA01 could have been a lot more flexible than the one in GTA02 Oct 21 22:26:24 doc|home: if that were the case, then it would be possible to dev for it. but it isn't because the distro is not stable and keeps regressing, the toolkit is fat and overwhelming for a lot of developers, and stuff doesn't work which really should by now. Oct 21 22:26:27 Aria: They were discussing that on OEDEM, some kind of build environment Oct 21 22:26:38 torpor again youre spreading total bullshit. the driver for gps is there. its working for oabi, its not working for eabi (which brmc has to fix since we do not have the source). we just cannot release the working oabi component because the lawyer to write the document hasnt completed it yet. Oct 21 22:26:45 CM: awesome Oct 21 22:27:01 torpor: what roh said Oct 21 22:27:03 its fscking legal crap. that just takes time. much more than any developer can imagine Oct 21 22:27:06 why does this seem a bad moment to build yet another build system ? Oct 21 22:27:23 roh: is the GSM 850 legal crap too? Oct 21 22:27:33 roh: i'm not spreading total bullshit. the fact is, the GPS doesn't work. GSM didn't work until 3 days ago and even then its flakey.\ Oct 21 22:27:34 Kero: It's not yet another as i got it, more like having a finished oe setup Oct 21 22:27:41 Writchie i dunno exactly. Oct 21 22:27:51 Kero: Or do you refer to Aria's work? :) Oct 21 22:27:59 roh: do this. imagine you're writing up a review of the openmoko phone having had it for 2 months. what will you tell people as of today? Oct 21 22:28:13 CM: ok, if you can get a definition and working definition of "finished" :) Oct 21 22:28:20 torpor: I'd say "still under heavy development" :) Oct 21 22:28:20 I'm not up to speed what Aria is doing Oct 21 22:28:20 torpor: I'd say "works as advertised" Oct 21 22:28:28 torpor ive made gsm calls with a gta01bv2 which did not even have an imei sticker, about 6 month ago.. and no, there was no gsmd or gui involved. Oct 21 22:28:47 Kero: I'm trying to build RPMs of the cross-build prereqs, buildable on my distro first (And probably binary compatible with most) Oct 21 22:28:53 CM: "too much hacking, not enough development", aria: "doesn't work for developers who want stable environments to code for" Oct 21 22:28:55 * rwhitby munches some more popcorn Oct 21 22:29:11 torpor: Right. "development" Oct 21 22:29:14 torpor and yes. the documentation clearly states that software is not done yet. if you did not read it and click on 'yes ive read it and want to order' i can imagine why youre pissed. Oct 21 22:29:20 roh: i bet you did it through the oh so elite command line. Oct 21 22:29:28 in fairness to the OM team, the community is really just witnessing what amounts to pretty much the normal development cycle for a phone - two years. Oct 21 22:29:40 Yeah Oct 21 22:29:47 roh: i read it alright, but i assumed that 2 months afterwards, things would be stable. it'd be possible to get stuff done. Oct 21 22:29:51 to enjoy sausage, you may not want to see how its actually made Oct 21 22:29:59 torpor ex-actly. and why? because ive read the little avail documentation and do not whine around that things which are not done yet are not done yet. Oct 21 22:30:02 Rrgh. Optimization flags to gcc got passed too far. I hate the gcc build system. Oct 21 22:30:08 i have spun hours and hours just trying to get the build system under control where i can reliably create my own recipes. Oct 21 22:30:15 aria, cm: OK, I think I'll take the "finished OE" (all i686 things provided? like arm-gcc) then :) Oct 21 22:30:29 Kero: Sounds like a plan Oct 21 22:31:00 there's loads of good stuff in OE. The main thing it lacks is docs for e.g. bitbake. Oct 21 22:31:12 Heh, yeah. Oct 21 22:31:23 And the assumptions in the build system (as they're found) Oct 21 22:31:29 roh: i want to write software for a phone. i do not want to argue whether or not i'm reading the docs, am a FUD'der, or some other such political bullshit. Oct 21 22:31:29 It barfs on my relatively new setup. Oct 21 22:31:34 (gcc 4.2 and such) Oct 21 22:31:46 whoever you openmoko people think you are, get someone on stabilizing the distro issues immediately or you are going to lose developers. Oct 21 22:31:54 about OE: ive not liked it at all when i started.. but as more i learn, i get to like the monster (it is one) .. but you can tame the beast or at least get it under control with a fast machine, enough ram and knowledge where to kick it and when Oct 21 22:32:07 torpor well.. what do you wanna write? Oct 21 22:32:10 Aria: I've been building almost daily with OE for over 6 months now Oct 21 22:32:12 Aria: I have debian unstable, when I started, it broke on monotone 0.35 (couldn't upgrade the repo) Oct 21 22:32:12 HEh, yeah. I'm missing two of those, roh Oct 21 22:32:21 other than that, no issues. Oct 21 22:32:26 Aria: First for qemu, now for the Neo Oct 21 22:32:30 roh: i want to write an interactive soundboard app that can be used to guide people through phone calls. Oct 21 22:32:36 cm, Kero: Yeah, for me, it was perl-native failing to build for a while. Then something else, I've lost track. Oct 21 22:32:50 i want to port my music apps to the phone and run them. Oct 21 22:32:50 torpor a what? Oct 21 22:33:04 Aria: Yes, there were a few, usually webkit-gtk. But lately I think it's been working ok :-) Oct 21 22:33:10 i want to be able to at least make a call with it, or get GPS data from it. i do not want to have to wait for the gta02 to arrive to do so. Oct 21 22:33:13 However, I've seen various packages break internally, on upgrades or something, that others kept reporting as working properly. Oct 21 22:33:16 CM: Good. It just takes so long to try. Oct 21 22:33:24 roh: soundboard app. push a GUI button, hear a sound. Oct 21 22:33:43 try dropbear not starting, psplash obscuring vision, and X not starting either. Oct 21 22:33:45 anyway, todays new build is under way. lets see if things are better once it completes. Oct 21 22:33:54 that was quite a useless image :( Oct 21 22:33:54 Aria: Yes, it takes ages when you start from scratch. But once you've gotten it built once, it's quite qick to just make an update Oct 21 22:33:57 has gps become more legal yet? Oct 21 22:34:03 or is it still not-really-distributed Oct 21 22:34:15 anrp: Still waiting for the lawyers Oct 21 22:34:17 CM: yeah. It's just that it's really hard to know which parts to remove to force a rebuild, in my experience. Oct 21 22:34:29 torpor sorry if i totally miss the usecase Oct 21 22:34:35 how come the lawyers aren't in this channel, and how come they aren't being forced to be in this channel? Oct 21 22:34:42 Aria: Did you use rwhitby's makefike or just bitbake? Oct 21 22:34:49 Aria: had to modify some rubu configuration, too, to let the bindings being built. Oct 21 22:34:56 cm: with each, similar failures Oct 21 22:35:05 cm: didn't like something in my distro, but no idea what Oct 21 22:35:07 torpor because laywers should be able to complete any work. that also why most of the coreteam is not here. Oct 21 22:35:07 roh: someone calls, you have a set of samples you want to play them, you push buttons onscreen to play them, they hear the samples, they can send back dialtones, you see their dialtone decisions, etc. Oct 21 22:35:13 cm: The errors were really vague as to what the problem is Oct 21 22:35:16 it could be useful for tech support. for phone sex. and other things. Oct 21 22:35:38 rwhitby: Btw, how about adding a "make fetch-all" option the does the bitbake -r fetchall openmoko-devel-image? Oct 21 22:36:32 Aria: I noticed that too. A cross compile "sandbox" like that shouldn't mix in distro libs, but I know it happened in some instances Oct 21 22:36:38 anyway i am now going to quit moaning. i'm sorry for FUD'ding up the channel. it is incredibly frustrating however to do a demo to a large group of interested hackers (as i did today here in vienna) and have to explain to them that nothing works because the distro itself is not stabilized and being governed. Oct 21 22:36:58 CM: exactly. Or just the tools I have are too new to build the older tools that OE uses. Or something. Oct 21 22:37:31 Aria: I'm running unstable 64-bit gentoo so I hit most issues too I think Oct 21 22:37:40 CM: Fun. i686 PLD here. Oct 21 22:37:54 torpor some things will change a bit in the future. oe will get snapshots for example. Oct 21 22:38:00 roh: rwhitby: it seems to me that a lot of the build problems are over native platform issues. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have a standard Oct 21 22:38:12 off, in the mysterious future [..] Oct 21 22:38:20 roh: there needs to be some weekly, regular official releases announced, that people can reliably and predictably build targets for .. Oct 21 22:38:29 where stable brances can be started.. atm oe has no such thing as a snapshot or stable release Oct 21 22:38:33 otherwise i spend more of my time doing the actual job of a distro maintainer than coding for a working distro. Oct 21 22:38:34 build platoform (e.g. Ubuntu 7.04 or 7.10) to verify that the builds work. Oct 21 22:38:48 torpor weekly is just impossible Oct 21 22:38:52 torpor: mickeyl is working on an updated release now, but he said he'd like to have gps in it if possible Oct 21 22:39:05 CM: you mean like "make prefetch-sources" ? Oct 21 22:39:12 godamnit why is it so hard for openmoko and yet so easy for every single other linux distro under the sun? Oct 21 22:39:14 Writchie and ubuntu 704/debian stable is known to work well.. see the wiki. Oct 21 22:39:18 rwhitby: Heh, sorry, didn't see that one :-) Oct 21 22:39:40 suse, ancient fedora and some fucked up gentoo systems give problems with oe, but thats nothing to wonder about Oct 21 22:39:47 rwhitby: Was some guy, mb_ or so that wanted to fetch all and I didn Oct 21 22:39:53 t find it in the makefile Oct 21 22:40:01 * CM wasn't really awake at that time Oct 21 22:40:05 all in total ive seen _much_ worse buildsystems Oct 21 22:40:20 CM: whether that existing target works or not is another question ;-) Oct 21 22:40:21 Hmm.. Work in 5 hours, time for bed... Oct 21 22:40:31 rwhitby: Hehe.. I'll have to give it a try Oct 21 22:40:34 it does -c fetch, not -c fetchall, for instance. Oct 21 22:40:55 I think fetchall was needed.. But I never did try Oct 21 22:41:23 * Aria does a little dance as she figures out the cross-gcc build system Oct 21 22:41:58 And gcc 4.2.2 to boot! Oct 21 22:42:11 Aright, back to the cello while this compile goes. Oct 21 22:42:53 boy am i lucky when i got rid of mtn Oct 21 22:43:24 Hehe Oct 21 22:43:29 * CM takes a nap Oct 21 22:44:46 CM just did a upgrade from feisty to gutsy on my workstation and not mtn changed from 0.31 to 0.35 .. -> mtn db migrate ; mtn db regenerate_caches Oct 21 22:45:26 * sagacis is going to upgrade to gutsy gibbon Oct 21 22:45:43 * Kero has bad experience with mtn 0.35 ... didn't upgrade 0.32 Oct 21 22:45:56 torpor: it's hard because it's cross-compiled Oct 21 22:47:22 ok burning now Oct 21 22:47:32 43745280 Oct 22 00:40 OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20071021-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 Oct 21 22:47:45 1604910 Oct 18 03:43 uImage-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr2937-r3-neo1973.bin Oct 21 22:48:03 hope this works and i can go back to app-coding instead of distro-/build-kit building .. Oct 21 22:48:39 i guess i'll be real popular when i publish this virtual machine with everything working onboard so people don't have to do their own setup work just to catch up with the cool kids in openmoko land .. Oct 21 22:48:51 torpor well. you can always start developing native on your normal pc Oct 21 22:49:15 roh: done. need to test. need to use on a real device. need actual, you know, GPS and cell phone devices. Oct 21 22:49:42 ah.. youre already so far Oct 21 22:50:00 i've been coding for OE since it was just a hack for collie. Oct 21 22:50:19 i might also add, complaing all the way as well. Oct 21 22:50:42 Heh Oct 21 22:52:18 okay here goes the boot .. Oct 21 22:53:53 torpor: It's already late. May I suggest you get a good night's sleep and continue tomorrow? Oct 21 22:54:12 abraxa_: no. i have another demo tomorrow. i am hacking away on sunday night because todays demo sucked ass. Oct 21 22:54:21 Demo? Oct 21 22:54:22 really, sucked ass. Oct 21 22:54:34 yeah i'm trying to demo my app on a working openmoko-based device. duh. Oct 21 22:55:19 What problems are you encountering with it in particular? Oct 21 22:55:26 no sound. Oct 21 22:55:39 no space for the app without serious futzing around with filesystems. Oct 21 22:55:43 Did you try restoring one of the ALSA states? Oct 21 22:55:58 but i just finished a fresh boot and now sound is working. Oct 21 22:56:07 Ah, good Oct 21 22:56:59 torpor when your app is only playing back sample snippets you should consider using pulseaudio as abstraction layer Oct 21 22:58:35 torpor btw.. your wordpress seems down Oct 21 23:05:06 roh: wordpress? Oct 21 23:08:20 Hi all Oct 21 23:10:04 Hewwos Oct 21 23:10:42 if the switch was made from fic-gta01 to neo1973 for the dist tag, shouldn't this : Oct 21 23:10:45 root@fic-gta01:/etc/ipkg$ grep -i neo1973 *conf Oct 21 23:10:47 produce some sorta different result? Oct 21 23:10:50 arch.conf:arch neo1973 26 Oct 21 23:11:10 i.e. snapshot-fic-gta01-feed.conf:src/gz snapshot-fic-gta01 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/ipk/fic-gta01 Oct 21 23:11:13 updates-fic-gta01-feed.conf:src/gz updates-fic-gta01 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/ipk/fic-gta01 Oct 21 23:11:14 I'm trying to follow the instructions here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973/es#Conectar_altavoz_interno_y_micr.C3.B3fono_en_llamadas_de_tel.C3.A9fono to get ssh access to Neo1973. I can ping 192.168.0.200 (not 202) and when I try to ssh to 192.168.0.200/202 I get " port 22: No route to host" no route to host message. Oct 21 23:11:21 s/fic-gta01/neo1973/g? Oct 21 23:11:35 Any pointer to a solution? Oct 21 23:11:37 offray_: make sure you set the gateway address. Oct 21 23:12:21 offray_: Does lsusb list the Neo? (it'll show no name, just the vendor:model ID) Oct 21 23:12:30 let me see Oct 21 23:13:30 I got this: Bus 002 Device 005: ID 1457:5122 Oct 21 23:14:13 and the usb mouse. The other ones are zeros Oct 21 23:15:09 Yup, that's the Neo. Does "ifconfig -a" show usb0? Oct 21 23:15:37 abraxa_: let me see Oct 21 23:15:50 abraxa_: yep here is: Oct 21 23:15:59 usb0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr C6:4E:8C:79:FD:48 Oct 21 23:15:59 inet addr:192.168.0.200 Bcast:192.168.0.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 Oct 21 23:16:43 Is it up? Oct 21 23:17:30 torpor zone79a.de Oct 21 23:18:40 abraxa_: I don't know. I get also: "UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1", need I to post the whole output? Can I paste it here (is 7 lines long) Oct 21 23:18:53 offray_: "UP" is all I wanted to know :) Oct 21 23:19:46 maybe you've got some stray routes Oct 21 23:19:55 Last time I get access to openmoko without any problem, but now., following the same instructions I can't connect to it Oct 21 23:19:58 offray_: Do you have the cdc_ether and usbnet modules loaded? (lsmod) Oct 21 23:20:36 roh: not my wordpress, probably the guy whose box i'm sharing Oct 21 23:20:44 offray_: Ah, of course you have. You have usb0. It's late ;) Oct 21 23:21:29 ;) Oct 21 23:22:39 torpor ;) Oct 21 23:23:42 well okay now things seem to be working Oct 21 23:23:50 tomorrow can be a positive demo and development day Oct 21 23:23:58 assuming i don't do an update in the morning that is .. ;) Oct 21 23:24:27 torpor: where is the url of your wordpress? Oct 21 23:24:59 i don't have one Oct 21 23:25:03 its not my wordpress Oct 21 23:25:05 i don't use that Oct 21 23:25:19 he keeps denying it Oct 21 23:25:24 on to him! Oct 21 23:25:37 heh Oct 21 23:25:39 i wish Oct 21 23:27:05 I don't know why Neo is not answering ssh but is responding ping without problem Oct 21 23:28:46 check that the route are set up Oct 21 23:30:19 torpor: I ran this: ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200 netmask 255.255.255.0 Oct 21 23:32:32 still no worky?' Oct 21 23:32:32 route add 192.168.0.202 192.168.0.200 Oct 21 23:32:42 i'd guess that you already have a 192.168.0./24 route Oct 21 23:32:47 maybe for a LAN Oct 21 23:32:49 or something Oct 21 23:32:55 torpor: ok Oct 21 23:33:10 a host specific route will override that D: Oct 21 23:35:10 making a route add I got: SIOCADDRT: No such device Oct 21 23:35:25 try route add -host 192.168.0.202 usb0 Oct 21 23:35:26 route add 192.168.0.202 usb0 Oct 21 23:37:10 Now I get: SIOCADDRT: File exists Oct 21 23:37:33 seems fine, but still not ssh success and now ping doesn't work Oct 21 23:37:54 D:? Oct 21 23:37:58 pastebin route -n Oct 21 23:38:01 and maybe ifconfig -a Oct 21 23:38:03 ok Oct 21 23:38:38 * abraxa_ finds it weird that he's happy to see someone do D: here Oct 21 23:40:25 here is the pastebin of route -n: Oct 21 23:40:25 http://pastebin.com/m505df02f Oct 21 23:43:21 mm Oct 21 23:43:39 don't see anything obviously wrong Oct 21 23:44:53 Barn times. Oct 21 23:44:55 4 all. Oct 21 23:44:57 offray_ packetfilter somewhere? iptables Oct 21 23:45:09 iptables -L -n into pastebin please Oct 21 23:46:37 roh: ok Oct 21 23:47:11 it would be one hell of a bizzare firewall that blocked outgoing ssh connections to a local network Oct 21 23:47:16 ...but hey, who knows Oct 21 23:48:54 anrp ive seen people filtering away their asses on localhost.. so.. nothing is too far away to be plausible Oct 21 23:49:21 this is the url: http://pastebin.com/ma08bbcb Oct 21 23:49:39 "this guy on 127.0.0.1 keeps trying to connect to my X server, wtf! b&!" Oct 21 23:49:45 ...and that's the last you see of them D: Oct 21 23:50:29 anrp: Maybe the Darwin Award of the online world? Removing their genes from the online gene pool voluntarily? ;) Oct 21 23:52:50 any problem with iptables? I don't know much about this. The true thing is that the last one I tried, just followed the instructions and it was done, and now I don't know what's wrong Oct 21 23:53:03 nothing wrong there Oct 21 23:53:25 offray_ nope.. no filters set Oct 21 23:53:32 as an almost last resort, tcpdump the interface in another terminal " Oct 21 23:53:42 tcpdump -ni usb0 | tee output Oct 21 23:53:46 then try ping, ssh Oct 21 23:53:49 and then post the output? Oct 21 23:54:36 you could also try the windows fix and reboot Oct 21 23:54:48 tcpdump command not found... give a minute I will install it Oct 21 23:55:22 je! the windows fix for everything(tm) WFFE ;) Oct 21 23:56:15 nah rebooting is the mostly-fix Oct 21 23:56:18 the wffe is reinstall Oct 22 00:00:26 anrp: yep Oct 22 00:03:27 openmoko: 03abraxa * r3232 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-mediaplayer2/ (configure.ac src/main_page.c src/main_page.h src/playback.c): Oct 22 00:03:27 openmoko: Remove some unneeded (commented out) debugging messages Oct 22 00:03:27 openmoko: Add basic video playback support (requires gstreamer video plugins to work) Oct 22 00:05:44 well I will try the windows fix Oct 22 02:56:17 Woo! Oct 22 02:56:22 Just received my first text on the Neo **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 22 02:59:56 2007