**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 01 02:59:57 2007 Nov 01 03:01:55 nelson: I have not, sorry. Nov 01 03:05:16 Ugh. So we'll add security later? Not sure that's such a great idea. Nov 01 03:05:50 nelson: it's necessary to a degree. Nov 01 03:07:15 nelson: there is a lot to do... I had what a similar thought that it should be engineered into the process from the start, but I haven't added a single line of code, yet, so I can't really kick and scream about that...you know? Nov 01 03:07:41 mwester: ping Nov 01 03:10:08 StylusEater sorry.. dunno Nov 01 03:14:29 Writchie: pong! Nov 01 03:15:17 is it really true that the reset on modem is not really there despite what's in the shell script Nov 01 03:16:25 That depends on what version of GTA01. Any GTA01 that was purchased does not have the reset line connected. Nov 01 03:17:09 Some of the earlier ones did, but a problem was discovered where the reset line was glitching the modem in some cases, so it was disconnected in the final version of the hardware. Nov 01 03:17:21 mwester: hmmm - then if power on reset doesn't work we're screwed. Nov 01 03:17:48 once the mux is running the power off command needs to be sent through a DLC Nov 01 03:19:05 Power on is also iffy -- the IO pin that powers on just triggers the modem to power-on, turning off that IO pin does nothing :( And to make matters still more interesting, the GSM modem is wired to the battery side of the power managment chip, so powering off the device doesn't power off the GSM modem. Nov 01 03:20:30 mwester: maybe they should produce a new version of the hardware, and include wifi, and an open GPS receiver. Nov 01 03:20:33 * nelson ducks. Nov 01 03:20:52 Perhaps a strategically-placed string, with instructions to "yank here in case of need to power off", would enable the user to pull off the case and battery in one smooth motion :) Nov 01 03:21:06 nelson: you'll be paying for the replacement? Nov 01 03:21:13 no excuse for no reset on modem. Nov 01 03:21:51 I was worried about the mux part. Nov 01 03:22:08 i hope the modem doesn't autobaud Nov 01 03:22:17 It means that if something goes wrong, and gets out of sync, there's absolutely NO way to recover short of removing the battery. Nov 01 03:22:39 mwester: something will go wrong - no doubt. Nov 01 03:22:52 mwester: I expect I will be paying for a replacement, yes. Nov 01 03:22:53 Heh! No it won't. We write perfect code. Nov 01 03:23:01 the mux seems to work ok so far and comes in and out of mux state without problems. Nov 01 03:23:13 my mux that is Nov 01 03:24:15 I was hoping that one of the core team with access to TI docs might be able to tell us if there's some sequence, such as something involving sending a break signal, that might reset the modem. Nov 01 03:24:57 mwester: what makes you think the calypso itself is crash free! Nov 01 03:25:41 Er... because they too write perfect code? Nov 01 03:26:06 (who needs to check for null pointers?? Of course it will *never* be null!) Nov 01 03:26:49 bzzzt wrong. Nov 01 03:27:50 Hmm... I just got a response on the mailing list. Apparently the modem *does* pay attention to an off->on transition on the GPIO power line, even when on, and resets. That's very good news. Nov 01 03:28:00 ive replied to the mail on gsm-devel... please read for details ;) Nov 01 03:28:19 Ah, so that's you, roh -- thank you!!! Nov 01 03:28:53 That's exactly the information I need. Nov 01 03:30:01 the sequent will not always work - in fact its guaranteed not to work when in the mux mode. Nov 01 03:30:41 Oh. Nov 01 03:31:19 You mean the power signal off->on transition, or the AT@POFF while in MUX mode? Nov 01 03:31:22 mwester: howere, if you preceed it with 0x7e 0x03, 0x53, 0xDB 0x7E this should close down the mux Nov 01 03:31:56 i'll test this tommorrow Nov 01 03:32:05 * mwester reaches for his note pad, as this could get complicated... Nov 01 03:32:26 again- if the modem autobauds it could be in any speed. Nov 01 03:32:42 there are 7 valid speeds for the mux for example. Nov 01 03:33:09 roh: do you know off-hand if the modem is autobauded or hardwired Nov 01 03:35:45 Writchie nope. i know it has hw-flowcontrol Nov 01 03:36:20 Ooh - yeah, that's also going to be delicate from inside the kernel... Nov 01 03:36:37 mwester: why do it in the kernel Nov 01 03:37:46 mwester: ok - i tried the above DISC command in command interpreter mode and it is benign. Nov 01 03:37:50 the mux should be in the kernel because of things like gprs as far as i understood till now Nov 01 03:38:19 On the assumption that user space completely crashed on us, and that the user wishes to power off -- we can't leave the modem on, if only so that it doesn't suck the battery dry. Nov 01 03:38:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko#TS07.10 has a graphic Nov 01 03:39:24 The alternative is to reboot the device back up, then do an orderly shutdown in order to get it to power off the modem. I guess that might be ok, but it doesn't "feel right" to me. Nov 01 03:39:57 the userland just got restructured a bit (below gsmd in that picture).. kernel should still apply Nov 01 03:39:58 mwester: in normal use case the neo will sleep with the modem on Nov 01 03:40:30 Right, but I'm considering the power-off state, not the sleep state. Nov 01 03:40:35 please note that this whole document is _really_ old Nov 01 03:40:46 roh: there are two schools of thought on userland versus kernel for the mux - in any case we need a working mux first. Nov 01 03:40:59 and that means user land Nov 01 03:41:06 it can be moved to the kernel later Nov 01 03:41:27 Writchie ack. the reason was afaik delaytime with higher rates with 3g (later) afaik Nov 01 03:41:47 roh: ack - but it will need to be usb then Nov 01 03:42:04 HSDPA will need to be usb to the modem Nov 01 03:42:13 INHO anyway Nov 01 03:42:15 It's a pretty picture. I'd still like for there to be a "power-down the gsm modem, right now, and don't ask any questions" function down at the serial device driver level. Nov 01 03:42:38 Writchie there were some ldisc and mux drivers on gsmd-devel.. but it didnt have a look at them yet Nov 01 03:42:58 Writchie usb would be ugly. much too power consuming. Nov 01 03:43:09 roh: i looked at some recent patches but they will never work - not even the right mode Nov 01 03:43:36 roh: not when wakeup/resume is handled correctly on both ends. Nov 01 03:43:44 BT does this Nov 01 03:44:15 serial just isn't going to hack it for HSDPA streams Nov 01 03:44:32 and moto does fine with USB to modem IIRC Nov 01 03:45:02 in any case that's down the road. Nov 01 03:45:09 ack Nov 01 03:45:23 big issue in my mind ATM is sleep/resume Nov 01 03:45:52 jap. Nov 01 03:46:24 the modem should issue a wake-up irq as soon as the flow control lines signal the app-cpu cannot recieve and the modem wants to transmit Nov 01 03:46:43 atleast thats what i know off-hand Nov 01 03:47:25 i'll find out tommorrow if the mux power down mode actually works or not. Nov 01 03:47:42 power down of the modem.. aaah Nov 01 03:47:46 wakeup is supposed to be a stream of flags until the other end responds Nov 01 03:48:26 flags? Nov 01 03:48:42 the mux uses an HDLC like link level protocol Nov 01 03:48:44 Well, I think it's not unreasonable at present that we power down the modem when "/etc/init.d/gsmd stop" is issued -- can we agree on that at least? Nov 01 03:49:09 mwester: only if it comes back ;) Nov 01 03:49:21 mwester: not really.. for gprs usage people stop gsmd and use it directly with ppp Nov 01 03:49:37 ah, ok. Nov 01 03:49:48 qtopia doesn't even use gsmd Nov 01 03:50:04 i'd prefer that the daemon take care of it all Nov 01 03:50:15 but thats just now.. Nov 01 03:50:31 Writchie i am not yet decided.. eventually we need both Nov 01 03:50:50 i just am thinking if there is any reason to reboot the app cpu and not the gsm Nov 01 03:51:20 roh: yes - the gsm can handle SMS by itself for example Nov 01 03:52:15 however, its bad practice generally to leave a radio running without an app processor functional. Nov 01 03:52:45 Especially when one has powered off the phone, and is entering a blast zone at the local construction site... ;) Nov 01 03:53:20 and WTF is transmit only mode? Nov 01 03:54:37 * mwester remembers something HAM radio operators call "alligators" -- big mouths, but no ears Nov 01 03:55:04 Doesn't seem useful to me, but there must be some point to it. Nov 01 03:57:26 hmmm, so the hxd8 isn't gonig to be a phone (primarily)? Nov 01 03:57:32 mwester: does your 10/31 kernel and rootfs work for you? Nov 01 03:57:56 The kernel is magnificent ;) but the rootfs stinks. Nov 01 03:58:00 the neo is going to have to resume periodically to assess the battery condition and decide whether to shutdown the GSM. Nov 01 03:58:20 Writchie: that's in sleep mode, right? Nov 01 03:58:27 mwester: init keeps saying that id "1" is respawning too fast. Nov 01 03:58:56 nelson: I don't see that problem, on mine the vendor plugins are missing for gsmd. Nov 01 03:58:57 mwester: yes - sleep with a timer that re-awakens every minute or so to assess conditions Nov 01 03:59:33 mwester: when battery gets low you first try a loud beep each minute for a few minutes. Nov 01 03:59:48 bah Nov 01 03:59:50 thats no fun Nov 01 03:59:53 then if no power comes back from the user you shutdown. Nov 01 03:59:54 when battery goes low Nov 01 04:00:02 rm -rf / Nov 01 04:00:07 save power by deleting files Nov 01 04:00:14 less files to suck up power Nov 01 04:00:15 :) Nov 01 04:02:54 Writchie actually i would suspect the pmu has programmable irq on battery low.. Nov 01 04:03:13 Writchie and the rtc is also in there.. Nov 01 04:03:16 Argh! the Aux button on my neo broke... Nov 01 04:03:19 mwester: weird. Nov 01 04:04:19 * roh -> home.. bbl.. eventually Nov 01 04:04:52 roh: may be too late? Nov 01 04:05:30 Isn't roh in .de? It's definitely late for him, then! Nov 01 04:06:06 sleep is overrated Nov 01 04:06:16 mwester: toggling power on seems to work fine to reset the modem on GTA01vb4 Nov 01 04:07:19 mwester: even works from the mux state. Nov 01 04:07:31 its 5:07am Nov 01 04:07:50 so it would seem best way to shutdown modem is to reset it first and then issue a power down command. Nov 01 04:08:03 this should work from any state. Nov 01 04:08:24 reset by toggling power off then on Nov 01 04:08:55 it appear that rising edge of power on signal also functions as a reset Nov 01 04:09:08 and it comes up running at 115200 bps Nov 01 04:10:02 bbl.. need to move now Nov 01 04:14:35 Ouch. It seems that for some reason gsmd-plugins is not part of the rootfs anymore. I think that's an error, but I'll rebuild the image and see if that makes it work again. Nov 01 04:15:06 Writchie: That's good news. There's a way, then, to reset it (and therefore power it off if that's what the user wants) Nov 01 04:19:19 mwester: this should probably be done on every shutdown Nov 01 04:19:32 leaving the modem on drains the battery to zero. Nov 01 04:22:02 mwester: there are potential problems with the stty state - depending on what's been done. Nov 01 04:22:52 probably the most reliable way is a small program to shut down the modem independant of the state of the stty Nov 01 04:23:16 i'll probably do this tommorow. Nov 01 04:23:37 Writchie|zzzZZzz Nov 01 04:24:36 Writchie: A good start might be to just have such a program run as one of the last init.d scripts to run on shutdown. Nov 01 04:24:45 yes Nov 01 04:24:52 later! Nov 01 05:42:49 moin Nov 01 05:46:16 MoinMoin Nov 01 06:15:32 Oh, nice findings Writchie|zzzZZzz :) Nov 01 08:02:55 hi folks, is there a problem building using moko makefile with gcc 3.4 ? Nov 01 08:07:04 (openmoko-today:1307): GConf-WARNING **: Client failed to connect to the D-BUS daemon:Failed to execute dbus-launch to autolaunch D-Bus sessionGConf Error: No D-BUS daemon running Nov 01 09:23:25 join #hurd Nov 01 09:23:31 nah ;) Nov 01 09:23:40 need coffee Nov 01 09:23:47 good plan Nov 01 09:26:06 hurd on Neo :-D Nov 01 09:26:47 XorA, i've not heard of it :) Nov 01 09:31:57 Hey! Nov 01 09:33:38 I was just wondering, (i could probably find this at the wiki tbh), has anyone been able to make calls with the phone in norway yet? :) and currently what phase of the roadmap is the project/phone in? :) Nov 01 09:34:28 fletch, i did Nov 01 09:34:31 gsmd doesn't work here. dunno about norway. Nov 01 09:34:44 fletch, Telenor Nov 01 09:35:18 mbuf: it's flexd :p, and okay, i've got netcom atm will probably work then i guess Nov 01 09:35:22 same net Nov 01 09:36:30 Aloha mickey :) Nov 01 09:36:39 flexd, did it manually, not dialer Nov 01 09:36:45 Hmmm Nov 01 09:37:00 cheereo Miss Sophie Nov 01 09:37:13 mickey: I saw you were pinging me before you left .tw - is that still of importance? Nov 01 09:37:40 abraxa_: if i knew why i pinged you, probably Nov 01 09:37:47 i completely forgot Nov 01 09:38:31 heh :) Nov 01 09:38:35 Alrighty Nov 01 09:39:59 mickeyl: Had a "good" flight at least? Nov 01 09:40:03 I'm somewhat semi-decent at programming, (some c++ and python), and this phone really got me interested, i feel like buying one Nov 01 09:41:01 but i'm not sure if i should wait for the "less-developer" version to be released, I'm not sure i'l be able to make something/contribute enough compared to just fiddling with it and making small stuff once it's released :/ Nov 01 09:43:48 flexd: in all honesty, i would wait ;) Nov 01 09:44:46 gi-el: that's what i thought too ;) Nov 01 09:45:10 is there a estimated release date for the 'less-dev'y version yet? :) Nov 01 09:46:37 morning Nov 01 09:46:51 * hrw added GSM firmware versions for gta01bv3 into wiki Nov 01 09:47:52 flexd: look at the topic Nov 01 09:48:45 oh Nov 01 09:48:46 shiny Nov 01 09:49:43 gi-el: i'm sort of blind today, i feel like i'm on drugs but i've only had hot chocolate o_0 (really spaced out for some reason, i can sit and stare at my comp screen and it's really tiny and it feels like im really far away from it and falling o_0) Nov 01 09:50:01 and i dont do drugs, it's just the openmoko awsomeness affecting me or something ;o Nov 01 09:50:41 oh yeah, i know that feeling Nov 01 09:50:48 the tiny, far away weirdness Nov 01 09:50:51 yeah Nov 01 09:51:03 like third time in two days it's happened, wonder what's up heh Nov 01 09:51:04 i sometimes even have that the characters in the terminal seem to be closer than the screen Nov 01 09:51:14 it's kind of a nice feeling though Nov 01 09:51:19 it's like drugs.. without drugs Nov 01 09:51:26 and i can read it perfectly and everything is okay, as long as i don't concentrate on the actual weirdness Nov 01 09:51:30 i thought i was the only one Nov 01 09:51:37 ^_^ Nov 01 09:51:47 it's a new ability, we're special. Nov 01 09:51:53 we're heroes :P Nov 01 09:52:14 alas, we have yet to figure out what to do with this awesome power Nov 01 09:53:15 abraxa_: aaah, it came back to me Nov 01 09:53:39 abraxa_: i wanted to tell you that i showed the mediaplayer to our new OM product manager and he really liked it. Nov 01 09:56:26 gi-el: we can make amazing programs Nov 01 09:56:42 dunno if i can do that without the power (or with) Nov 01 09:56:57 need more learning first,i'm only 19, no college degrees or anything yet ;o Nov 01 10:08:02 *sigh* Nov 01 10:08:05 got a new monitor and guess what Nov 01 10:08:12 my gfx card can't drive it Nov 01 10:09:12 erp Nov 01 10:09:37 I thought gfx cards these days were pretty versatile (unless you got suckered by ATI) Nov 01 10:10:02 mickeyl: what monitor and what card? Nov 01 10:10:58 mickeyl: Ohh, thanks =D - is that the clip mokoNinja posted on YouTube? Nov 01 10:12:50 abraxa_: let me check. you have an URI? Nov 01 10:12:58 hrw XorA : Dell 2707 WFP Nov 01 10:13:01 needs 1920x1200 Nov 01 10:13:08 I have a G550 Nov 01 10:13:12 max. 1280x1024 via DVI :/ Nov 01 10:13:22 ah, 10 years old card :-) Nov 01 10:13:28 upgrade mr mickey Nov 01 10:13:34 heh Nov 01 10:13:37 mickeyl: G550 is 5 eurocents now Nov 01 10:13:43 mickeyl: time to upgrade Nov 01 10:13:48 mmmrrr Nov 01 10:13:52 new PC has been ordered Nov 01 10:14:02 this time a prebuilt one Nov 01 10:14:10 i no longer have the time and interest to build a custom one Nov 01 10:14:13 * XorA needs to find cash for new PC, this one overheats with new HD :-( Nov 01 10:14:15 cultural shock ahead... Nov 01 10:15:05 mickeyl: Yep, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BUMhJKlxJA Nov 01 10:17:05 abraxa_: yah, that's it. we recorded that the last day i was in the .tw office :) Nov 01 10:17:45 hah hah, mokoNinja has sucky music tastes :-) Nov 01 10:17:46 mickeyl: intel or amd? Nov 01 10:17:52 hrw: intel core duo Nov 01 10:17:53 2 Nov 01 10:18:01 * XorA is pricing a core 2 quad Nov 01 10:18:55 tomorrow I will get amd64 x2 Nov 01 10:19:04 only new cpu anyway Nov 01 10:20:31 I prices upgrade to newer amd64 platform (AM2 socket instead of 939) and found it too expensive for now Nov 01 10:20:41 mickeyl: Ohhh! Hehe awesome. Thanks =) Nov 01 10:20:52 seems to be about 500 gbp for a core 2 quad shuttle Nov 01 10:20:53 abraxa_: you're welcome. it's all your work :) Nov 01 10:21:29 mornin' Nov 01 10:21:44 hrw: i'd get a c2d E6850 or Q6600 if your gonna buy a new cpu Nov 01 10:22:10 flexd: I think you missed the point is has to fit in an amd64 socket Nov 01 10:22:13 flexd: amd64x2 2.2GHz is <50% of any c2d Nov 01 10:26:43 XorA: indeed i did Nov 01 10:27:05 hrw: the price you mean? sure, performance wise i'd choose a c2d :p Nov 01 10:27:26 I've got a single core amd64 4000+ now, it's good enough for most things atm Nov 01 10:27:41 my 3200+ amd64 is struggling these days Nov 01 10:28:05 * XorA shakes his bank account to try and shake loose spare change Nov 01 10:28:41 hehe Nov 01 10:29:02 i ran crysis at medium/high in XP with this processor :< (a bit laggy on the super heavy graphics parts though) Nov 01 10:29:20 flexd: E6850 or Q6600 costs ~1000 PLN and fastest amd64 (6400+) is 800PLN Nov 01 10:30:00 XorA: I have 3200+ now - will replace with 4200+ x2 Nov 01 10:30:19 hrw: does 4200+ mean 2x 4200+ cores, or 2x 2400+ cores? Nov 01 10:30:38 hrw: Ive seen damn webshops use both sets of figures, and the second is a pure lie Nov 01 10:31:12 XorA: 4200+ means 4200+ Nov 01 10:32:05 hrw: unfortuneately thats not true :-D Nov 01 10:32:15 damn marketing people screw everthing up Nov 01 10:32:20 word! Nov 01 10:36:04 ~change 1000 pln to gbp Nov 01 10:36:12 i got some error trying that Nov 01 10:36:34 ~no change Nov 01 10:38:25 ah prices comparable to UK Nov 01 10:52:50 what should i expect from OpenMoko? :) Nov 01 10:53:12 * abhibera asks a really dumb question. but genuinely wants to know before he gets one. Nov 01 10:54:35 that's a good question Nov 01 10:54:48 alot of fun Nov 01 10:54:51 indeed Nov 01 10:54:53 if you lihe this kind of stuff Nov 01 10:54:53 i guess Nov 01 10:54:56 flexibility to do what you like Nov 01 10:55:02 if you not plan on hacking Nov 01 10:55:13 then it makes no sense atm. Nov 01 10:55:17 IMO Nov 01 10:56:11 just one think im thinking about Nov 01 10:56:13 is the phone laggy? Nov 01 10:56:18 like menus and stuff Nov 01 10:56:38 gta01, yes Nov 01 10:56:53 gta02 should be a bit faster Nov 01 10:57:18 just trying out the emulator now (and i know that probably doesnt represent the phone very well), but it's like super laggy :p Nov 01 10:57:50 hmm Nov 01 10:57:50 emulator is superslow Nov 01 10:57:52 define super Nov 01 10:58:08 matrix slowmotion kind of super Nov 01 10:58:09 how long does it take to start contacts on the emu? Nov 01 10:58:13 in seconds Nov 01 10:58:50 9-15seconds? (i was just counting) Nov 01 10:58:58 and that's with no contacts added Nov 01 10:59:19 right, that's a bit slower than on the actual device Nov 01 10:59:33 launching contacts takes about between 3 and 4 seconds here Nov 01 11:00:14 stuff like pressing the main menu button and stuff even takes 1-2sec here :/ Nov 01 11:00:22 (top left menu thing) Nov 01 11:01:14 yeah, that's almost instantaneous on the device Nov 01 11:01:28 so qemu might be about 3 to 4 times slower Nov 01 11:05:11 hmmmm Nov 01 11:05:24 so it's a nice dev box huh? :) Nov 01 11:05:49 is it based on open embedded? will it work with Ubuntu? Nov 01 11:06:37 mickeyl: ? Nov 01 11:07:01 * jeddy3 thinks it would be cool if openmoko-browser had view->remove buttons option for true fullscreen operation Nov 01 11:08:18 hmm Nov 01 11:08:34 i think if i buy one im gonna try to make something play with wlan and gps together :D Nov 01 11:09:10 flexd: what is the development platform? arm-toolchain? does it work with Ubuntu? Nov 01 11:11:01 * abhibera wonders if anyone will answer? Nov 01 11:11:05 me wants to get one Nov 01 11:11:56 openembedded, yes Nov 01 11:12:27 OpenMoko is a distribution built using OpenEmbedded Nov 01 11:12:38 yes, you can develop on most distros Nov 01 11:12:41 i'm using Mandriva Nov 01 11:12:42 abhibera: it can be built on ubuntu, see wiki for more complete instructions Nov 01 11:13:05 guaqua: ok Nov 01 11:13:25 guaqua: where can i get one in India? :) Nov 01 11:13:35 a phone? Nov 01 11:13:45 guaqua: yes :) Nov 01 11:14:42 openmoko.com. they deliver. however, before ordering one, do some research so you can actually decide if you want a work in progress or would you rather wait and help do some software development at this stage Nov 01 11:15:06 guaqua: porting software is what i am interested in Nov 01 11:16:01 * * OM Bug 971 has been created by thomas(AT)openedhand.com Nov 01 11:16:02 * * OpenMoko restarts without warning Nov 01 11:16:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=971 Nov 01 11:16:36 guaqua: the advanced kit is best for debugging. but just gdb is sufficient right? Nov 01 11:18:05 the advanced kit basically is for uboot and kernel development Nov 01 11:18:41 and if you (or the images you load to your phone) accidentally brick it Nov 01 11:22:20 hi Nov 01 11:22:37 openmoko: 03andrew * r3316 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (46 files in 7 dirs): Merge with :ext:balrog@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/qemu Nov 01 11:31:03 guaqua: i brick my device all the time :) luckily i can load the kernel again by flash Nov 01 11:31:13 guaqua: www.amidasimputer.com Nov 01 11:31:37 looks sweet :) Nov 01 11:33:00 guaqua: yea... but's it's pretty dated :( which is why i think open moko is good Nov 01 11:33:32 guaqua: trying to get swfdec working optimally on ARM. u know anyone who's already done it? Nov 01 11:33:54 i wouldn't know, but someone else might :) Nov 01 11:34:01 guaqua: do you know how good the new Neo 1973 is at doing video? Nov 01 11:34:31 i don't have a device myself, so i rely on my info solely on what people talk here and what's in the wiki Nov 01 11:34:40 i'm sure someone will pick up from here Nov 01 11:34:57 brunch next :) Nov 01 11:35:03 openmoko: 03andrew * r3317 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/neo1973.c: Update neo1973 board init to new boot_devices handling. Nov 01 11:35:04 XorA, mickeyl: I need to leave now - but thought someone with commit access might like to know that the openmoko image is missing gsmd-plugins in the most recent builds. Nov 01 11:35:29 Gotta run! Nov 01 11:36:01 damn gsmd is the bane of everyones life :-) Nov 01 11:36:34 * XorA is looking into it Nov 01 11:38:06 * abhibera thinks that u should put an accelerometer on the Neo Nov 01 11:38:12 abhibera, for native vga-video, not a chance...for more reasonable (imho) qvga-video, a non cpu-heavy codec, like mpeg2 might be feasible Nov 01 11:38:24 abhibera: the GTA0w will have 2 accelerometers... Nov 01 11:38:31 s/0w/02 Nov 01 11:38:36 jeddy3: how about FLASH? Nov 01 11:38:48 Mek: what's the GTA0w? when and where can i get it from? Nov 01 11:38:54 GTA02 Nov 01 11:39:18 and when it is available? hopefully by the end of this year... Nov 01 11:39:29 Mek: :( i want one now Nov 01 11:39:52 you don't want one now Nov 01 11:40:01 most of the drivers for it aren't even written yet Nov 01 11:40:16 abhibera, and with soon to be implemented qvga mode for lcd-display we might have a good solution there Nov 01 11:40:42 jeddy3: so should i get a Neo 1973? Nov 01 11:40:45 abhibera, flash: no idea Nov 01 11:40:57 abhibera: Neo1973 is both GTA01 and GTA02 Nov 01 11:41:08 the GTA names are code names for the different versions Nov 01 11:41:14 thos: oh.... i had no idea Nov 01 11:41:15 abhibera, thats entirely up to you...if you wan't a good video-solution...maybe not Nov 01 11:41:38 * jeddy3 : away for lunch Nov 01 11:41:56 thos: so if i order a neo processor do i get now? iread somehwere that it's got an upgraded processor Nov 01 11:43:01 abhibera: you'll have to rephrase that, I don't understand Nov 01 11:43:05 GTA02 will have, it's not available yet Nov 01 11:43:23 GTA02 :( Nov 01 11:43:28 i want one :( Nov 01 11:44:12 how much flash memory/storage does the GTA01 have? Nov 01 11:44:27 64M Nov 01 11:45:30 mjr: then which one has 1GB? Nov 01 11:46:30 µSD-card? Nov 01 11:47:28 zash: i was just reading somewhere that the neo got generous upgrades where 1GB was mentioned. let me find that article AGAIN Nov 01 11:50:55 the GTA02 will have 256MB internal flash Nov 01 11:52:00 at least GTA01s have shipped with an additional 512MB µSd, and you can get them currently at least up to 4 GB, very soon up to 8 GB Nov 01 11:53:34 mjr: ok then how much storage does it have? i mean how on earth did u manage to put GTK onto it? Nov 01 11:53:52 i would also like to try gstreamer Nov 01 11:54:04 flash == storage, in case you didn't know Nov 01 11:54:42 the 64 MB on GTA01 is certainly getting a bit cramped, but it does use a compressed filesystem Nov 01 11:55:20 GTA02 will be the 'end-user' version or the 'end-user'+1 version? Nov 01 11:55:27 end-user Nov 01 11:55:41 hopefully available at end of the year Nov 01 11:56:34 mjr: not all gta01 were shipped with uSD card and not all with 512M one Nov 01 11:56:48 hrw, okay, didn't know that Nov 01 11:56:51 technical ready and production-ready is a difference. I hope it will be there with Christmas. Nov 01 11:57:06 mjr: my gta01bv3 came with 128M one, gta01bv4 without any (but it was as upgrade of bv3) Nov 01 11:57:08 mjr: hmmmm...... Nov 01 11:58:54 hrw, okay, phase0 then Nov 01 11:59:10 I was looking to buy a new phone, the ones with a stylus have Windows Mobile (don't want that) and remembered that this project was still 'out there'. I just hope I can use my phone to: receive/send calls/sms/mms, use custom ringtones and sync it with my desktop Nov 01 11:59:17 mjr: but there is GTK on it right? Nov 01 11:59:43 SWAT Windoze SUCKS! can u believe even their Phones get viruses!?!? Nov 01 12:00:26 ach: yes Nov 01 12:00:27 abhibera, yes Nov 01 12:00:42 ach: at the moment, it's a slow desktop, with some phone apps on it. Nov 01 12:00:43 mjr: yay! Nov 01 12:00:51 The phone apps need major polishing. Nov 01 12:00:57 mjr: what about Firefox or something like it? Nov 01 12:01:02 ahem, it looks nice and shiny and works. A lot of people use it (and are happy with it). I just hope that the GTA02 will be a big competitor and will be able to at least a bit of the same feature-package Nov 01 12:01:17 FF can in principle run on it - it won't be especially fast but should run fine. Nov 01 12:01:26 FF is quite bulky Nov 01 12:01:29 Nobodies compiled it yet. Nov 01 12:01:29 I've ran firefox remotely on the neo, locally it's much likely too heavy (and you'll have to install on microsd of course) Nov 01 12:01:35 FF is bulky, however. Nov 01 12:01:47 MiniMo? Nov 01 12:01:59 I have 14 tabs open on my FF1.5, and it's using 76M RSS only Nov 01 12:02:19 I would definately use: epiphany-browser or a lighter browser Nov 01 12:02:34 SpeedEvil: then what browser is there on the Neo? Nov 01 12:03:29 I'm not sure what the current one is. Nov 01 12:03:41 I've not updated my software. Nov 01 12:04:47 SpeedEvil: any chance of me getting a GTA02 in another two weeks? am I allowed to preorder? Nov 01 12:05:50 SWAT: if you only want to send/recieve calls and use sms, what is there to sync with your desktop? Nov 01 12:05:50 * abhibera wants a GTA02 :) Nov 01 12:05:57 abhibera: almost zero Nov 01 12:06:04 :( :( :( :'( Nov 01 12:06:07 abhibera: they are not for sale at all at teh moment. Nov 01 12:06:26 The almost is that if you paid a silly amount of money, you could probably convince them to. Nov 01 12:06:45 thos, I forgot to mention some kind of calendar/PIM software Nov 01 12:06:52 SpeedEvil: hmmmmmm :( Nov 01 12:07:12 SWAT: ok, so call functions work, and there is some kind of calendar/PIM software available too Nov 01 12:07:17 thos, and sending sms from your desktop (while the phone is connected) would also be very nice Nov 01 12:07:28 SWAT: sync is not available, nor is sms/mms Nov 01 12:07:32 SpeedEvil: i desperately want one. i see no point in ordering a GTA01 now with slightly dated h/w Nov 01 12:07:39 SWAT: not yet available I mean of course Nov 01 12:07:40 thos, thanks for the info Nov 01 12:07:52 abhibera: significantly cheaper, stereo sound Nov 01 12:08:42 abhibera, so wait Nov 01 12:08:53 SpeedEvil: i'm not worried about cost.... Nov 01 12:09:01 mjr :( Nov 01 12:09:32 or go to Sean with a million bucks and tell him you want an early prototype, as SpeedEvil semisuggested :] Nov 01 12:10:18 mjr: so will it b out in december? Nov 01 12:10:44 so you dont want a slightly dated mostly working device, but you do want a slightly newer not working device Nov 01 12:10:45 heh Nov 01 12:11:27 madwoota: well the Wiki says GTA01 is pretty buggy Nov 01 12:11:37 abhibera, if all goes well, hopefully yes Nov 01 12:11:53 * abhibera prays that he gets one in December Nov 01 12:12:04 is there any way i can pre order? Nov 01 12:12:34 * rwhitby wonders if anyone else is getting fed up with the community emails from Mr GPS expert ... Nov 01 12:12:40 if gta02 was worth using, it'd be available Nov 01 12:12:44 its not, hence, its not Nov 01 12:12:48 kinda simple really Nov 01 12:13:07 rwhitby, yes indeed Nov 01 12:13:24 rwhitby: examples, I dont really pay much attention to community Nov 01 12:13:57 openmoko: 03thomas * r3318 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/phone-kit/moko-talking.c): Nov 01 12:13:57 openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-talking.c: Nov 01 12:13:57 openmoko: Revert use of GdkPixbufSimpleAnim as it does not support looping Nov 01 12:14:21 XorA: start at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011344.html and read onwards in that thread. Nov 01 12:15:23 * rwhitby notes that the person sending those emails has a signature containing a URL which leads directly to an Ebay shop ... Nov 01 12:15:45 * mjr tried to spell it out for him in the hopes that he'd pipe down Nov 01 12:18:05 rwhitby: looks like all gas, and the inabiity to read Nov 01 12:18:30 XorA: nod Nov 01 12:19:10 hey I used a GPS once, and sent the data over x25, so that must make me a super expert :-) Nov 01 12:19:33 x25? wow Nov 01 12:20:16 * mjr bows before the expertitude Nov 01 12:21:39 madwoota: not even to developers? Nov 01 12:22:00 very few internal developers at openmoko inc. Nov 01 12:22:06 abhibera: not even to P0 yet Nov 01 12:22:17 surely even developers like to have a working device some of the time ? Nov 01 12:22:51 :'( :'( Nov 01 12:28:21 madwoota: you're bunching all kinds of developers together though Nov 01 12:28:25 openmoko: 03stefan * r3319 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/misc/openmoko-today2-folders/ (ChangeLog Makefile.am): Nov 01 12:28:25 openmoko: 2007-11-01 Stefan Schmidt Nov 01 12:28:25 openmoko: Make sure PIM.directory gets installed. Thanks Ross Burton for spotting. Nov 01 12:28:25 openmoko: * Makefile.am: Nov 01 12:28:50 madwoota: a fresh new hw is rarely safe for app developers for instance Nov 01 12:31:17 tell abhibera that, not me Nov 01 12:31:37 oh how come the openmoko isn't going to cam ? Nov 01 12:32:07 Because. Nov 01 12:32:21 A) the case design was fixed some time ago without a cam. Nov 01 12:32:38 B) Some people can't use cameras with cams Nov 01 12:32:40 oh sure Nov 01 12:32:44 just wanted to know Nov 01 12:32:48 C) it's extra cost Nov 01 12:32:52 does the iphone have a camera ? Nov 01 12:33:01 SpeedEvil: you mean phones with cams ;-) Nov 01 12:33:01 Many of us would like a camera. Nov 01 12:33:14 i don't really want a camera Nov 01 12:33:15 thos: I can't use cameras with cams either.. ;) Nov 01 12:33:16 yes, phones. Nov 01 12:33:24 ha Nov 01 12:33:28 I want a camera - but not for taking pictures to show people. Nov 01 12:33:34 oh the iphone has a camera Nov 01 12:33:46 apparently the iphone camera is really bad Nov 01 12:33:54 plus it doesn't even do movies Nov 01 12:34:05 ever since i got my first phone with a camera i find the camera is a novelty unless its taking a photo of your odometer clocking 100,000 Nov 01 12:34:11 i don't really think phone cameras are any good Nov 01 12:34:22 I want it for looking over tall objects, or taking photos of stuff I'm dissasembling, or to take pictures of items in shops Nov 01 12:34:30 To comparison shop later Nov 01 12:34:40 SpeedEvil: lol or attaching to your shoe :P Nov 01 12:34:49 only 100,000 i got at 3 X10 *8 m/s Nov 01 12:35:04 Not really, you'd want a camera with a big IR flash for that. Nov 01 12:35:06 odometer does not measure distance Nov 01 12:35:11 SpeedEvil: lol Nov 01 12:35:14 ooo the openmoko should get ir Nov 01 12:35:31 or there should be an ir device for evil tv fun Nov 01 12:35:45 dbmoodb: there is its called the tvbgone google it Nov 01 12:36:47 nice Nov 01 12:37:04 i want one Nov 01 12:37:25 can i get it in a shirt to go with a wifi mdk3 program inbuild ? Nov 01 12:39:33 oh the neo1973 will do most gsm frequency right ? Nov 01 12:41:15 gta01 doesn't do 850 MHz, gta02 should be full quad Nov 01 12:41:40 not sure how it looks currently getting gta01 to quad through an upgrade Nov 01 12:44:05 1800 ? Nov 01 12:55:42 it does 900/1800/1900 Nov 01 13:00:12 * CM agrees that the browser should have a "no buttons" mode Nov 01 13:01:55 mamammeeya, how did they put the wallpaper behind that clock? Nov 01 13:02:51 Sup3rkiddo: I think that's in the latest openmoko-today2 versions Nov 01 13:03:21 gah anyone know how to take a screenshot in mac if you dont have a mac keyboard? Nov 01 13:03:35 alt == option Nov 01 13:03:41 CM: hmm, i saw a commit a week ago, but only the clock is there..anyway, lemme search around Nov 01 13:03:50 cjb_ie: oh and ctrl == command? Nov 01 13:04:17 no, ctrl == ctrl - do you have a windows key perhaps? Nov 01 13:04:57 cjb_ie: yup its not that olda keyboard :P Nov 01 13:05:19 i think win _might_ get mapped to command, but i'm not sure Nov 01 13:05:49 if not, try one of the other win keys Nov 01 13:06:00 (left win, right win, context menu) Nov 01 13:06:54 why no USB2 on neo? Nov 01 13:08:27 abhibera: Because the SoC doesn't support it Nov 01 13:08:41 (System on a Chip, not Summer of Code ;)) Nov 01 13:08:50 CM: thanks ended up finding how to do it via terminal Nov 01 13:09:03 CM: hmmmmm Nov 01 13:09:12 cjb_ie: I think he meant you ;) Nov 01 13:09:38 CM: looks like i have to order a GTA01 Nov 01 13:09:44 CM: yay for single-letter tab completion collisions Nov 01 13:09:51 :D Nov 01 13:10:17 abhibera: If you want something to play around with right now, do that. It's a fun toy anyway :) Nov 01 13:18:21 lol yup thanks CM Nov 01 13:18:25 this time it is CM Nov 01 13:19:48 hi there. Nov 01 13:23:23 guys - do I see wrong or there is no new packages from openmoko team on buildhost? Nov 01 13:31:02 hrw: new since? Nov 01 13:31:29 * LarstiQ flashed an image today that is quite different than what he had before Nov 01 13:31:52 CM: i can't ask my boss to buy a $350 Toy! Nov 01 13:32:12 CM: i need something which is good for dev Nov 01 13:32:41 LarstiQ: since my last upgrade few days ago Nov 01 13:34:51 hrw: in that case you may be right Nov 01 13:35:05 abhibera: dev of what? Nov 01 13:36:19 dev of apps Nov 01 13:36:26 porting existing apps Nov 01 13:37:24 abhibera: qemu will be enough then Nov 01 13:37:33 or even xoo or xephyr Nov 01 13:37:38 really? but how will i know the performance? Nov 01 13:37:55 hrw: i need to see actual performance Nov 01 13:38:19 abhibera: gta01 performance differ from gta02 performance Nov 01 13:38:46 hrw: precisely :) which is why i want a gta02 which should perform better Nov 01 13:39:47 abhibera: and gta02 is not ready for developers Nov 01 13:40:01 hrw: hmmm... within a month maybe? Nov 01 13:40:15 abhibera: so if it performs really fast under qemu, that's a reasonably indication it will do ok on actual hardware. Nov 01 13:40:45 LarstiQ: hehe... what if u have a Core2Quad which is really fast? :D Nov 01 13:40:59 LarstiQ: simulators are misleading :( Nov 01 13:41:05 it's actually slower on qemu than gta01 iirc Nov 01 13:41:21 and qemu doesn't take advantage of multiple cores Nov 01 13:41:50 abhibera: I'd be impressed if you have a host that lets things run faster under qemu than on the gta01 Nov 01 13:42:01 mjr: ah... Nov 01 13:42:25 LarstiQ: ok Nov 01 13:42:53 abhibera: but you are right that should be taken into consideration. But so are things like alignment of reads, context switch overhead etc. It's an indication, not hard science. Nov 01 13:43:36 abhibera: do you have concrete performance requirements, or can you make things fit given the limits? Nov 01 13:43:56 LarstiQ: i want to put swfdec onto it Nov 01 13:44:11 abhibera: I'll be happy to test that if you port it ;) Nov 01 13:44:16 LarstiQ: so i need to see how it works on the actual device Nov 01 13:44:40 abhibera: eventually, yes. But you don't need actual hardware initially. Nov 01 13:44:47 CM: well i have a totally different X and GTK build at present. i wish i could send it to u. Nov 01 13:45:02 abhibera: But I'm sure it will be too slow for youtube and such, swfdec is tough for my desktop to run Nov 01 13:45:02 abhibera: but as CM said, there are plenty of people who would be willing to help test (as am I) Nov 01 13:45:27 LarstiQ: yes... Nov 01 13:46:24 * ScaredyCat feels guilty Nov 01 13:47:34 ScaredyCat: of what? Nov 01 13:48:03 ScaredyCat: Enjoying qtopia too much? :P Nov 01 13:48:14 I haven't provided a build for a day or so.... Nov 01 13:48:21 * ScaredyCat slaps CM Nov 01 13:48:25 you bad boy! Nov 01 13:48:29 Hehe Nov 01 13:49:04 my parents get cparry 256kb, and the badwidth police in the office get me .... Nov 01 13:49:21 but off to .nl again friday, with my nice connection :D Nov 01 13:50:00 cparry!! Nov 01 13:50:07 crappy even Nov 01 13:50:19 Tired? Nov 01 13:50:30 ScaredyCat: you do builds locally and then upload stuff? Nov 01 13:50:37 yes CM... Nov 01 13:50:45 LarstiQ: yes.. Nov 01 13:50:57 otherwise my dsl would die Nov 01 13:52:23 and xs4all would probably cut me off... last month 65Gb downloaded Nov 01 13:52:34 by users... Nov 01 13:52:54 oh, I was thinking of doing the building on my remote host. Which I already do, but nothing regular. Nov 01 13:53:21 well, if you have the machine remote and the bandwidth, why not... Nov 01 13:53:45 I just tend to do it locally so that I can do builds and see what's going on, no need to connect... Nov 01 13:54:05 just takes foreverto upload with a crappy connection ... Nov 01 13:59:21 ScaredyCat: lol consider yourself lucky.... very few people in nz have uploads over 128k at home Nov 01 14:00:02 * CM is spoiled with that Nov 01 14:00:13 xzcvczx: uf... so we in Poland doe snot have worst net Nov 01 14:00:46 hrw: huh? too many negatives in one sentance dont make for easy reading Nov 01 14:01:14 * CM translates: Poland has bad broadband, does .nz have even worse? Nov 01 14:01:20 lol Nov 01 14:02:02 well it looked like "so we in poland does not have worse net" aka poland has better net Nov 01 14:02:10 xzcvczx: I still forgets that English language does not have double negatives etc Nov 01 14:02:21 lol Nov 01 14:02:30 hrw: In northen sweden that's the norm Nov 01 14:02:30 it ain't NOT got 'em Nov 01 14:02:52 double negative == positive, like in mathmatics Nov 01 14:02:55 After a good dinner you can say "That wasn't discusting" when you really liked it :D Nov 01 14:03:12 lol i dunno about that Nov 01 14:03:15 in Polish sentence "he never does not go to the cinema" is ok and means "he never goes to the cinema" Nov 01 14:03:46 you can say "he ain't never used proprietary software before" Nov 01 14:03:50 CM: saying "That wasn't discusting" implies that you expected it to be Nov 01 14:04:08 well english seems to be more math based then as 2 negatives make a positive Nov 01 14:04:09 disgusting* Nov 01 14:04:10 ScaredyCat, you don't tell ppl no mathematics in no english! Nov 01 14:04:25 and completely destroys the statement 2 wrongs dont make a right Nov 01 14:04:31 not(!do I ) Nov 01 14:04:52 Human languages are not, be definition, logically accurate. Nov 01 14:05:08 hrw: That must be somewhat unique, that the double negatives counts as one. :) Nov 01 14:05:18 mornin Nov 01 14:05:19 nor was that sentance mmazur.. Nov 01 14:05:28 CM: hey Nov 01 14:05:34 Ghiottone: Hello :) Nov 01 14:06:30 mmazur: lojban! Nov 01 14:06:49 ScaredyCat: One of my favourite quotes: Nov 01 14:06:50 "Do _I_ know what a rhetorical question is?" - Homer Simpson Nov 01 14:07:07 CM: nice Nov 01 14:07:18 CM: what season was that? Nov 01 14:07:40 xzcvczx: Can't remember, just watched at random on tv :) Nov 01 14:08:05 Lisa asked "Do you even know what a rhetorical question is? Nov 01 14:08:26 oh ok Nov 01 14:08:35 "How many roads must a man travel down before you can call him a man" Homer: "Seven!" Lisa: "Dad, that's a rhetorical question." Homer: "Oh, rhetorical ... Eight!" Nov 01 14:08:49 :) Nov 01 14:08:58 Henryk: ah thanks i remember that now Nov 01 14:09:11 Aunt Google says: http://grammar.about.com/od/rhetoricstyle/a/homerhet.htm Nov 01 14:10:24 .oO('Nu-cu-lar', the word is 'nu-cu-lar') Nov 01 14:50:27 yay, modemet funkar på bärbara Nov 01 14:50:50 zash, grattis :D Nov 01 14:51:50 i was going to say that in another channel, 'alt sends escape' isnt enabled Nov 01 14:54:24 zash, yeah almost figured ;) Nov 01 14:56:53 :D Nov 01 14:59:09 congrats, zash Nov 01 15:00:40 Hehe Nov 01 15:05:42 hm.. 3g-modem + neo.. Nov 01 15:07:28 if you are working with a file on the neo are you best off keeping it open for the life of the program or opening and closing it for each time it needs to read/write the file? Nov 01 15:07:45 Hey, does anyone here use a Neo on Rogers? Nov 01 15:10:07 not in edmonton. Nov 01 15:10:18 doesn't seem to register Nov 01 15:10:34 which makes me think that it's trying to use 850MHz Nov 01 15:12:52 I'm in downtown Ottawa, and CFUN1 hangs forever Nov 01 15:13:09 I need to retry, though, because it's been a few weeks Nov 01 15:13:30 edmonton is the only place that Rogers uses 850 Mhz in? does Fido use the same frequency in that area? Nov 01 15:24:19 * ScaredyCat == sugar rush Nov 01 15:30:13 that just means there's no fun to be had in Ottawa ;) Nov 01 15:47:52 is anyone around who knows c at all? Nov 01 15:48:10 'at all'... what's the problem? Nov 01 15:48:17 <_diego_> maybe ^^ Nov 01 15:49:25 nah Nov 01 15:49:31 i dont know any c Nov 01 15:49:36 real programmers use VB Nov 01 15:49:42 we only do scheme and haskell Nov 01 15:50:18 simplest thing ever.... to make a string from some constants and some variables is it just 'string = "Select " + var1 + "from" +var2;' Nov 01 15:50:37 * xzcvczx feels the flames on his feet already Nov 01 15:51:08 String handling sure isn't good in c Nov 01 15:51:08 xzcvczx, nah, by now they're up to your neck Nov 01 15:51:17 that's certainly not C, xzcvczx Nov 01 15:51:17 ok lol Nov 01 15:51:33 check out sprintf Nov 01 15:51:36 Vegar: yeah i figured it might not be Nov 01 15:51:38 or rather snprintf Nov 01 15:51:55 Vegar: ah ok thanks i was actually looking at that but got distracted Nov 01 15:53:05 xzcvczx: java background? Nov 01 15:53:19 Stephmw: unfortunately Nov 01 15:53:28 hehe Nov 01 15:53:34 C is nothing like java Nov 01 15:53:40 its really all the university i am at teaches Nov 01 15:53:55 Vegar: yeah but just figured that would be the easiest way to represent it Nov 01 15:54:31 If using glib, g_strdup_printf() might be a nice alternative to s(n)printf() Nov 01 15:54:37 Using + to concatenate strings in java should be illegal too ;) Nov 01 15:54:50 xzcvczx: there's still use for Java, but not yet really on OM for app devs Nov 01 15:54:54 xzcvczx: http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-String-Utility-Functions.html Nov 01 15:57:09 gamin: meh just playing around with something at the moment so will leave glib out of it for the time being.... might end up using it later Nov 01 15:57:42 Stephmw: yeah, but this program is destined for the neo so not much use in java Nov 01 15:57:42 xzcvczx: well, then have fun with malloc ;) Nov 01 15:59:14 gamin: i know Nov 01 15:59:15 :S Nov 01 16:00:16 xzcvczx, you could also use the stack Nov 01 16:00:57 xzcvczx, something like char mystring[1024]; sprintf(mystring,"Select %s %s %s", var1, var2,var3); Nov 01 16:03:27 Ghiottone: Hmm.. Not snprinf(1024? Nov 01 16:04:08 Ghiottone: good point, will look at that too Nov 01 16:04:33 * CM noticed it's snprintf(char *str, size_t size, const char *format, ...) Nov 01 16:04:47 CM: oh yeah, you're right. that's secure programming :) Nov 01 16:05:21 snprintf is what u want Nov 01 16:05:29 *surely* overflows would *never* happen... right? right? Nov 01 16:05:30 not secure Nov 01 16:05:37 just correct Nov 01 16:05:59 don't compilers now issue warnings if you use the old functions? Nov 01 16:06:12 sometimes Nov 01 16:06:15 just use snprintf Nov 01 16:06:21 and your code will crash... less Nov 01 16:06:32 haha Nov 01 16:06:33 (mostly - caveats of couse exist) Nov 01 16:07:11 what got me the most with native code (in a RTOS) was task blocking due to cross-task calls Nov 01 16:07:12 c string handling isnyt too bad Nov 01 16:07:18 where tasks had different priorities Nov 01 16:07:23 just write some wrapper funcs Nov 01 16:08:31 shouldnt a block on a higher pri task mean the lower task will then be scheduled as the high pri is blocked? Nov 01 16:08:55 (makign way for lower pri tasks to do their dirty business) Nov 01 16:09:04 of couse if u have other equally high pri task Nov 01 16:09:11 then those can consume all the cpu Nov 01 16:09:17 then u are in deep poopie land Nov 01 16:10:07 thankfully the watchdog resets the device Nov 01 16:10:19 thats not good Nov 01 16:10:21 so you get a stack dump and can start figuring out wtf went wrong Nov 01 16:10:28 hmmm Nov 01 16:10:54 u need soft-realtime Nov 01 16:11:06 where lower pri tasks will every now and again be scheduled Nov 01 16:11:09 anyway Nov 01 16:11:19 if they need it Nov 01 16:11:27 single-chip mobiles have to use hard rt, don't they? for the GSM? Nov 01 16:11:28 or... Nov 01 16:11:40 No Nov 01 16:11:42 dual core Nov 01 16:11:46 or multi-core Nov 01 16:11:49 the kernel needs to know that u are blocking ona read froman fd that is written to by a lower pri task Nov 01 16:12:01 Hard real-time is another option. Nov 01 16:12:04 and thus ups the pri of that taks to the same as the blocking read task Nov 01 16:12:10 raster: this wasn't linux Nov 01 16:12:12 until the blocking ytask stops blocking Nov 01 16:12:32 raster: the whole thing was compiled into a single binary Nov 01 16:12:50 Stephmw: ewwww Nov 01 16:12:54 uglerninessss Nov 01 16:13:23 raster: it gets better... but I can't really comment :) Nov 01 16:13:32 s/better/worse/ etc Nov 01 16:13:33 hhehe Nov 01 16:13:45 no wonder linux is taking over Nov 01 16:13:46 :) Nov 01 16:15:08 if you are working with a file on the neo are you best off keeping it open for the life of the program or opening and closing it for each time it needs to read/write the file? Nov 01 16:15:28 depends? Nov 01 16:15:29 Close and open Nov 01 16:15:37 openmoko: 03chris * r3320 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-worldclock2/ (ChangeLog src/worldclock-main.c): Nov 01 16:15:37 openmoko: * src/worldclock-main.c: (map_button_press_event_cb), (main): Nov 01 16:15:37 openmoko: Use a static map and add code to find the nearest timezone to where the Nov 01 16:15:37 openmoko: user clicks Nov 01 16:15:40 Generally - to keep the state as sane as possible. Nov 01 16:15:57 aye, unless you start doing it frequently Nov 01 16:15:58 what are your priorities Nov 01 16:16:01 Writes to flash is not a concern. Nov 01 16:16:13 Unless you're writing megabytes/second Nov 01 16:16:17 min are to snooze Nov 01 16:16:19 mine Nov 01 16:16:23 * raster snoozes Nov 01 16:16:43 Stephmw: define frequently? Nov 01 16:16:53 xzcvczx: here's a piece of string Nov 01 16:17:01 Stephmw: :S Nov 01 16:17:12 xzcvczx: ie, if you start to impact other processes, you're doing it too much :) Nov 01 16:17:42 The occasions I would say not to write to flash are if it would take a long time and interrupt the user. Or if it's a large amount. If it's just updating a 10K file, then it's probably sane to drop a copy at every user input Nov 01 16:17:58 anyway, this kind of tweaking is an optimisation Nov 01 16:18:01 yeah Nov 01 16:18:11 leave it to later Nov 01 16:18:16 SpeedEvil: its a database and it will never be large amounts of consistent writing only reading Nov 01 16:18:28 Stephmw: good point Nov 01 16:19:11 The absolute ideal would be to save in such a form that you can closedown and resume exactly the same state seamlessly. Nov 01 16:19:16 Tricky though. Nov 01 16:19:20 * Stephmw nods Nov 01 16:19:22 * Stephmw nods Nov 01 16:19:44 Also vulnerable to wedging the program or the user in an undefined state Nov 01 16:20:07 no recovery possible? Nov 01 16:20:34 No - for example, the user gets to a place they don't understand how to get back from Nov 01 16:20:48 if they quit and restart, and it comes back in exactly the same place. Nov 01 16:20:56 Or a page that wedges your app Nov 01 16:21:09 ah, more of a UX issue though Nov 01 16:30:27 openmoko: 03thomas * r3321 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/dialer/dialer-main.c): * src/dialer/dialer-main.c: Use dbus service to initiate calls Nov 01 16:39:27 openmoko: 03thomas * r3322 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog data/org.openmoko.Dialer.service.in): * data/org.openmoko.Dialer.service.in: Update binary name Nov 01 16:42:04 hello Nov 01 16:42:14 i'm using the mokomakefile now Nov 01 16:42:28 thomasgruebler, me too :) Nov 01 16:42:35 but Nov 01 16:42:41 openmoko: 03thomas * r3323 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/phone-kit/moko-dialer.c): Nov 01 16:42:41 openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-dialer.c: (moko_dialer_class_init), Nov 01 16:42:41 openmoko: (dialer_display_error), (moko_dialer_init): Reimplement dial out function Nov 01 16:42:49 i cannot flash qemu Nov 01 16:43:12 make flash-qemu-official Nov 01 16:43:24 or make flash-qemu-local Nov 01 16:43:40 says after some time, that flashing time of 300s expired Nov 01 16:44:08 thomasgruebler, I have the same problem. not sure why Nov 01 16:44:13 ok Nov 01 16:44:22 so i cannot try out the phone on wemu now Nov 01 16:45:08 increasing the timeout doesn't help? I had to increase it a bit, but then it all worked just fine... (but that was a few weeks ago) Nov 01 16:45:32 or isn't it really taking 300 seconds before you get that error? Nov 01 16:46:04 i didn't stop the time Nov 01 16:46:06 but it says Nov 01 16:46:24 that it wasn't able to flash the phone Nov 01 16:46:27 for 300s Nov 01 16:46:49 but didit take 5 minutes for you to get that error? or was it significantly shorter than that... Nov 01 16:47:03 no it could be 5min Nov 01 16:47:06 it was a long time Nov 01 16:47:15 300s = 5 min Nov 01 16:48:18 maybe it was 5min Nov 01 16:48:36 i try it now Nov 01 16:50:48 GTA01Bv4 # setenv bootcmd ' Nov 01 16:50:53 there it always stops Nov 01 16:51:05 but is not stopped yet Nov 01 16:55:26 now it stopped: Nov 01 16:55:31 openmoko/flash.sh: line 88: 6307 Beendet $qemu -mtdblock "$script_dir/$flash_base" -kernel "$script_dir/$1" -serial stdio -nographic -usb -monitor null 0<&0 Nov 01 16:55:31 U-boot failed to finish writing in 300 seconds, giving up. Nov 01 16:55:31 make: *** [flash-qemu-local] Fehler 255 Nov 01 16:55:57 i hope it's no problem to send longer texts in irc since noone writes something Nov 01 17:03:31 openmoko: 03ross * r3324 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-today2/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Nov 01 17:03:31 openmoko: 2007-11-01 Ross Burton Nov 01 17:03:31 openmoko: * .: Nov 01 17:03:31 openmoko: Update lock down svn:externals to revisions. Nov 01 17:03:31 openmoko: * src/: Nov 01 17:03:33 openmoko: Remove inotify externals, its in libtaku now. Nov 01 17:03:37 openmoko: * configure.ac: Nov 01 17:03:39 openmoko: 03thomas * r3325 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/dialer/dialer-main.c): Nov 01 17:03:42 openmoko: * src/dialer/dialer-main.c: (dial_clicked_cb), (main): Nov 01 17:03:44 openmoko: - Notify user if there was a problem connecting to dbus Nov 01 17:03:46 openmoko: - Switch to history page if dial activated with no number entered Nov 01 17:03:48 openmoko: - Clean up code Nov 01 17:39:41 i can't seem to get uboot-openmoko to build. anyone can help me ouy? Nov 01 17:39:56 pastebin? Nov 01 17:42:20 where does everybody change their background images in openmoko-today? :P Nov 01 17:48:48 openmoko-appereance Nov 01 18:04:24 mickeyl, yeah, but it just says "No background options yet" Nov 01 18:04:38 really? interesting Nov 01 18:04:42 in the meantime, use gconftool-2 Nov 01 18:04:50 wait, i'm giving you an example Nov 01 18:05:24 export `dbus-launch` Nov 01 18:05:47 gconftool-2 --type string --set /desktop/poky/interface/wallpaper /usr/share/pixmaps/foo.png Nov 01 18:05:52 mickeyl, aah! gconftool, didn't realize i had a gconf-register on my phone =) Nov 01 18:05:52 restart X Nov 01 18:05:58 :) Nov 01 18:06:23 mickeyl, thanks :) Nov 01 18:06:26 np Nov 01 18:07:32 mickeyl, on my desktop...first thing i check in if i don't find a option...but on _phone_, nah :D Nov 01 18:14:56 well, yeah, it is disputable whether it is a good idea to have desktop technologies on a phone Nov 01 18:15:09 i'm still undecided Nov 01 18:17:48 * Stephmw does a jedi mindtrick on mickeyl ... keep it simple on mobile! Nov 01 18:18:41 hmm yeah. one half of me says that as well. the other half says "gnome technologies good and lightweight... use them everywhere" Nov 01 18:19:10 GTK lightweight? Hmm... :) Nov 01 18:19:18 gnome lightweight? since when? Nov 01 18:19:39 compared to kde, i guess ;) Nov 01 18:22:31 hmm, anyone mind if i ask a not-really-directly-openmoko-related-question-but-has-to-do-with-it question? Nov 01 18:22:49 people do all the time anyway :-) Nov 01 18:23:10 hehe, well i'm trying to get vmware player to use my physical linux partition Nov 01 18:23:49 i've read the article on doing it the other way around (windows in linux), but i want linux in windows Nov 01 18:24:06 so basically the point i get stuck at is what on earth does vmware call windows disks? Nov 01 18:24:09 i haven't used vmware this century :-) Nov 01 18:24:19 and never on windows Nov 01 18:24:23 maybe if someone has a full vmware they could create a physical vmware config and email pls? Nov 01 18:25:06 cjb_ie, true, its not my style either Nov 01 18:29:57 openmoko: 03chris * r3326 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-worldclock2/ (4 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed) Nov 01 18:29:57 openmoko: * src/worldclock-main.c: (set_time), (close_clicked_cb), Nov 01 18:29:57 openmoko: (tzset_clicked_cb), (clock_idle), (remove_clock_idle_notify), Nov 01 18:29:57 openmoko: (map_enter_notify_cb), (map_leave_notify_cb), Nov 01 18:29:58 openmoko: (map_button_release_event_cb), (main): Nov 01 18:30:00 openmoko: Add setting of timezone, clicking on cities, showing sunrise/sunset Nov 01 18:30:02 openmoko: info, showing of times in other cities, etc. Nov 01 18:30:07 ahh, activity :) Nov 01 18:30:21 i've noticed that the past two days seem to have been really active Nov 01 18:30:27 in terms of wiki edits and mailinglist posts Nov 01 19:14:12 stefan_schmidt: ping Nov 01 19:21:54 hmm Nov 01 19:21:57 ~lart gtk Nov 01 19:21:57 * apt hits gtk with an anvil and laughs with a contralto voice ... Haha Ha HA Ha Nov 01 19:22:08 uhm Nov 01 19:22:09 magon ??? Nov 01 19:25:50 hello Nov 01 19:26:04 i just wanted to build openmoko qemu Nov 01 19:26:21 white_gecko, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Automatic_emulation_in_Ubuntu Nov 01 19:26:23 that might help Nov 01 19:26:39 but i get an error when i run "openmoko/flash.sh" Nov 01 19:26:47 ok i will look at this Nov 01 19:29:26 white_gecko, are you just emulating to play with applications? if so I would suggest using Xephyr because qemu is pretty slow Nov 01 19:33:13 enjahova: yes Nov 01 19:33:35 but the ubuntu thing doesn't work for me Nov 01 19:33:43 oh Nov 01 19:33:52 python-psyco is not available Nov 01 19:33:56 hmm Nov 01 19:33:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr Nov 01 19:34:17 i found qemu too slow to really be useful for testing applications Nov 01 19:34:40 so i built the image for x86 following that guide ^ Nov 01 19:34:42 hm so i will look how the Xephyr thing works Nov 01 19:35:28 yeah, it takes longer to build since you build the whole thing, but its much faster when you are using it Nov 01 19:35:55 hm ok Nov 01 19:46:42 is it necessery, to have a "/home/moko/"-dir? Nov 01 19:46:49 no Nov 01 19:47:02 you can put it wherever, but then you just adjust your settings Nov 01 19:47:23 i have /home/enjahova/openmoko where i put my makefile Nov 01 19:47:33 yeah.. but i didn't have to adjust any settings Nov 01 19:47:55 not settings, i mean when you are following the guide, just change appropriately Nov 01 19:48:58 ok good :) Nov 01 19:49:05 just wanted to make sure i didn't mess anything up :) Nov 01 19:49:35 maybe one day qemu issues with gcc 4 will be fixed Nov 01 19:49:41 then i wouldn't have to have compiled gcc 3.4 :( Nov 01 19:49:58 johnny, did you use xephyr? Nov 01 19:50:04 do* Nov 01 19:50:08 no Nov 01 19:50:34 maybe if i was doing some devel with this i'd use xepher Nov 01 19:50:41 err xephyr Nov 01 19:50:44 ah Nov 01 19:50:52 i just wanted to see how some things are coming along Nov 01 19:50:54 ah so i think the gcc version was my problem last time Nov 01 19:50:59 i want to do application devel, so i just set up xephyr yesterday Nov 01 19:51:06 well it'll die if it was, unless you turned off the check Nov 01 19:51:17 i'll save application devel until i get real hardware Nov 01 19:51:57 i'm actually more interested in adding ways to integrate some of the other neat things i've seen before i make apps for it Nov 01 19:52:05 like processing credit cards directly on the phones Nov 01 19:52:12 like thos nextel phones can do Nov 01 19:52:20 lik cardswiper right on the side Nov 01 19:54:15 what options can i set to have a smaler openmoko, when i make it with mokomakefile? Nov 01 19:54:32 there are some ideas on the mokomakefile page Nov 01 19:54:41 if anybody knows any other ways, they should put them there Nov 01 19:58:25 ok Nov 01 20:22:28 rwhitby: ping? Nov 01 20:28:02 huhu leutz! ;) Nov 01 20:28:28 jo sers Nov 01 20:28:34 hi! Nov 01 20:28:52 na, wie gehts voran mit dem phone? Nov 01 20:30:07 #neo1973-germany ;) Nov 01 20:30:21 sorry^^ Nov 01 20:30:34 Kein prob Nov 01 20:30:42 lol Nov 01 21:00:16 hmmm Nov 01 21:00:41 Just convinced my dad to buy a neo1973 when it gets released in the non-develop version too \o/ Nov 01 21:07:49 if you could use the gta02 as http://www.uchobby.com/index.php/2007/10/27/accelerometer-based-mouse/ it would be legend :) Nov 01 21:24:36 cb22: it doesn't look very ergonomic Nov 01 21:24:42 Vegar, SO? Nov 01 21:24:47 its cool :) Nov 01 21:25:00 hehe, yeah Nov 01 21:25:08 might be doable Nov 01 21:25:27 using the neo as a bluetooth mouse Nov 01 21:25:50 (if that's possible) Nov 01 21:27:37 or you could use a wiimote Nov 01 21:27:39 cheaper :) Nov 01 22:18:28 hey, how do i get a /dev/ttyACM0 device (ubuntu) Nov 01 22:18:53 should be automatic when you plug in the neo Nov 01 22:19:31 Psi_: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot#Accessing_the_bootloader_prompt Nov 01 22:20:16 thanks Nov 01 22:20:18 reading... Nov 01 22:22:12 boston? D: Nov 01 22:43:54 hm.. anybody up for a volunteers task? Nov 01 22:44:17 i need somebody to hack up a simple skin for gforge for om Nov 01 23:00:57 roh: Sounds like a community list post is due :) Nov 01 23:01:41 The seven-segment LED display is a compromise designed to create a readable digit at absolute lowest cost... Nov 01 23:02:12 ... so I wonder why one would take the stunning display of the Neo, and use most of it to *emulate a seven-segment LED display clock*!!!!! Nov 01 23:02:15 :D Nov 01 23:02:20 lol Nov 01 23:02:29 Is there a way to change that to a proper clock? Nov 01 23:02:39 Yeah Nov 01 23:02:40 3x21 :) Nov 01 23:03:10 What's the magic incantation? Something in /etc/matchbox/session? Nov 01 23:03:26 haha, the clock scared me Nov 01 23:03:33 wasnt expecting that Nov 01 23:03:42 * cb22 wants a fuzzy clock Nov 01 23:03:44 those rule Nov 01 23:03:50 time: Quater to Seven Nov 01 23:03:54 * mwester would *love* to see a world-clock sort of display; the neo would do a marvelous job with such a thing. Nov 01 23:04:30 mwester: what sort of world clock display? Nov 01 23:04:37 cb22: or in a special student mode: "summer term" or "winter term" Nov 01 23:04:56 The one where you have the world map, with the daylight/night boundary updated as time progresses... Nov 01 23:05:15 and it can get your position via gps :) Nov 01 23:05:20 And a realistic atmosphere to the earth, with stars behind. Nov 01 23:05:44 ;) You could do some cool effects with the sort of resultion and color depth on the neo... Nov 01 23:05:45 and 3d zooming in and out Nov 01 23:06:00 we need to port google-earth to the neo. Nov 01 23:06:06 * Henryk senses the lack for an xearth recipe Nov 01 23:06:12 s/for/of/ Nov 01 23:06:13 ah, like a clock, except it doesn't _actually_ tell you the time :-) Nov 01 23:06:13 And compress google-earths database onto the neo. Nov 01 23:06:15 zoom far enough, and it magically becomes the mapping application for the gps - that's neat. Nov 01 23:06:30 SpeedEvil, you think the neo's accelerometers would be sensitive enough to use as a mouse? Nov 01 23:06:35 And zoom out enough, and it's an astronomy one. Nov 01 23:06:42 cb22: you can tell down. Nov 01 23:06:47 cb22: much more - no. Nov 01 23:06:51 cjb_ie: Well, it usually would have your local time at the bottom, and start centered on your location. Nov 01 23:07:10 this is plenty for moving a mouse, it works like a joystick Nov 01 23:07:20 But right now I'd settle for just plain text on the clock - is that possible? Nov 01 23:07:21 mwester: dbus-launch gconftool-2 -t bool -s /desktop/poky/interface/digital_clock false Nov 01 23:07:25 SpeedEvil, damn it, seems like the floor is the limit.. *pardon the extreamly bad pun* Nov 01 23:08:45 mwester: i have an even better idea: we could add a clock in the tray area at the top Nov 01 23:08:55 SpeedEvil: marble (a kind of free opensource google earth clone) already runs just fine on the neo :) Nov 01 23:08:58 (only a bit slow :P) Nov 01 23:09:02 and it requires qt... :P Nov 01 23:09:26 Mek: where's the data from? Nov 01 23:10:17 I'm not sure where the included datasets are from... Nov 01 23:10:38 "Marble uses vector as well as bitmap data: Currently it uses the old MWDB II data combined with elevation data from the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM)." Nov 01 23:10:54 Ah - SRTM. Nov 01 23:11:17 * SpeedEvil needs to see if I can find someone at NASA with the raw dataset of that. Nov 01 23:11:33 (they released 90m imagery outside of the US, but they have 30m, unprocessed) Nov 01 23:15:43 ooooh what'd be involved in processing it, i wonder Nov 01 23:17:18 As far as I understand it, the problem is simply that there were lots of bogons that needed investigating and removing by hand. Nov 01 23:17:52 However, computer technology and storage has advanced to the stage where the whole 30m SRTM dataset is no longer a scary one. Nov 01 23:18:35 'only' a terabyte or so. Nov 01 23:19:10 sure you could fit that in a couple of disks these days Nov 01 23:19:15 Henryk: ;) Yeah, one in the tray area would work... :P But I kinda like a bigger one on the display; to make sure I make it to my meetings on time. Nov 01 23:25:05 mwester: You saw my line? Just checking Nov 01 23:25:13 abraxa_: Yep - thanks! Nov 01 23:25:23 Ah okay Nov 01 23:39:14 abraxa_ hm? Nov 01 23:44:48 roh: Oh, I just said that you might wanna post to the community ML as no one responded Nov 01 23:46:03 abraxa_ better not.. that only generates aeons of useless ideas from somebody about how to do it instead of a tarball with what i want Nov 01 23:46:18 heh :) Nov 01 23:46:20 hehe! Nov 01 23:47:32 I'd volunteer, but I have no ability in that area. I can't even match my own socks. :) Nov 01 23:50:02 mwester: well.. its basically just the usual hassle of web-app-madness ;) finding out how the specific software ticks and then fight against the html/css/php/whatever windmills Nov 01 23:51:43 Wow roh, your intense love for web development brings a tear to my eye... it's so... moving... Nov 02 00:59:30 abraxa_ well.. you know.. if our documentation and web infrastructure is better it means less of the same questions end up in my mailbox and less confused people Nov 02 00:59:54 so its making my life easier when i find out how to make that stuff better Nov 02 01:00:41 roh, good work on getting ipkg updates working (i'm trying to randomly thank developers) Nov 02 01:01:17 ipkg updates? that wasnt me Nov 02 01:20:00 * * OM Bug 972 has been created by kristian(AT)mput.de Nov 02 01:20:02 * * - PowerButton kills "Home" Nov 02 01:20:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=972 Nov 02 01:27:15 hi Nov 02 01:28:35 Does anyone know anything about the Smedia 3d accelerator? Nov 02 01:31:35 oc2k1: Reading the data sheet is your best bet atm, I'd think Nov 02 01:31:56 roh: Yeah, I understand - was just being sarcastic :) Nov 02 01:32:39 for example it would be nice to know how much ram for textures can be used Nov 02 01:33:36 I hope I will get a Neo1973 phase to instead a greenphone that I've won on qtcentre Nov 02 01:33:41 2 Nov 02 01:34:23 Maybe I could write some small opengl games Nov 02 01:35:14 Well, 3D drivers are waaaay down the road Nov 02 01:38:55 The specifications are looking similar to the voodoo 1.... Nov 02 02:17:27 openmoko: 03andrew * r3327 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/pty.c: Avoid spinning after the slave pty closes. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Nov 02 02:59:57 2007