**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 05 02:59:57 2007
Nov 05 03:24:34 <xzcvczx> nnpiggy: hey you around?
Nov 05 06:39:57 <CM> Morn :)
Nov 05 06:48:35 <mbuf> CM, mornin
Nov 05 06:48:46 <jeddy3> morning
Nov 05 06:56:15 <raddy> Hello Everybody
Nov 05 06:56:45 <raddy> Why very few snapshots are currently there in Buildhost?
Nov 05 06:57:08 <raddy> Those too are little old, dating backing to September
Nov 05 06:57:10 <CM> There's been a lot of trouble with the buildhost 
Nov 05 06:57:18 <CM> Also, are you looking in the correct dir?
Nov 05 06:57:47 <CM> raddy: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/
Nov 05 06:57:51 <raddy> CM: yup, http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/fic-gta01/
Nov 05 06:58:22 <CM> fic-gta01 was renamed to neo1973 because the images for GTA01 and GTA02 will be the same :)
Nov 05 06:59:06 <CM> raddy: If you want a fairly new image with reported gsmd working, try mwester's files from http://moko.mwester.net/
Nov 05 06:59:09 <raddy> CM: ohh, why there is no scandycat snapshots?
Nov 05 06:59:27 <raddy> CM : Ohh cool
Nov 05 06:59:39 <CM> raddy: There is, latest update is from november 1:st: http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/
Nov 05 07:00:24 <raddy> CM: what is this automated.it url?
Nov 05 07:00:38 <CM> raddy: It's ScaredyCat's server :)
Nov 05 07:01:08 <CM> There are scaredycat images there, with scummvm and some other additions
Nov 05 07:02:23 <raddy> CM: i read in this url http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Phase_1_Software_Testing#Snapshot_20070916_rootfs_with_20070916_kernel_fic-gta01_2.6.22.5-moko11.2Bsvnr2937-r0
Nov 05 07:03:01 <raddy> CM : that this too is stable http://celtune.morb-design.com/images/fic-gta01/OpenMoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20071104-fic-gta01.rootfs.jffs2
Nov 05 07:03:30 <CM> raddy: Give that a try too then :)
Nov 05 07:04:03 <raddy> CM : but he had some other issues, i'll first give a shot in the link that you gave
Nov 05 07:04:17 <CM> :)
Nov 05 07:05:09 <raddy> CM: I am from India, so shall i download Scandycat's images as it contains timezones for my country,
Nov 05 07:06:13 <CM> raddy: I think pavelm said that the nov-01 image from there didn't make calls, but mwesters did
Nov 05 07:06:23 <CM> I haven't tried it myself though
Nov 05 07:09:22 <raddy> CM: Do you mean Scandycat's Nov 01 images didn't receive consistent results?
Nov 05 07:09:54 <CM> I only know one person who's tried it, and calling didn't work for him
Nov 05 07:12:10 <raddy> CM: did you get consistent results in images hosted in http://moko.mwester.net/  ?
Nov 05 07:12:18 <CM> yes
Nov 05 07:12:50 <raddy> CM : then i'll go for mwester's image
Nov 05 07:13:15 <CM> I assume you have low bandwidth or so and don't want to download all of them?
Nov 05 07:15:04 <raddy> CM: downloading is one problem, installing it is another problem :)  only one system is capable of installing firmware in Openmoko, that is in my office,  
Nov 05 07:15:20 <CM> raddy: Ah, I see. :)
Nov 05 07:19:25 <ewon> um
Nov 05 07:20:28 <raddy> CM: currently downloading, thank you for your help :)
Nov 05 07:20:39 <CM> raddy: Just hope it works for you too :)
Nov 05 07:56:50 <blindcoder> moin
Nov 05 07:56:58 <zash> boing
Nov 05 08:48:03 <jeddy3> mplayer in qvga actually works quite nice
Nov 05 08:56:19 <_diego__> i've tried some .mp3 on neo... and i got about 50% of cpu usage... quite high IMHO
Nov 05 08:56:29 <_diego__> (using mediaplayer)
Nov 05 08:56:33 <CM> jeddy3: Ah, cool :)
Nov 05 08:58:51 * zash is a bit against phone-as-mediaplayer
Nov 05 08:59:51 <zash> Separation of concerns ftw
Nov 05 09:00:11 <guaqua> i'm all for it
Nov 05 09:00:19 <guaqua> less devices to carry
Nov 05 09:00:53 <guaqua> and it doesn't really add that much more to care about in a phone, the media player
Nov 05 09:00:54 <CM> I just wish to have longer batterylife on all my gadgets..
Nov 05 09:01:00 <_diego__> zash, and what about a phone-as-pda? ;)
Nov 05 09:02:19 <zash> that would be nicer
Nov 05 09:02:49 <CM> I listen more to mp3's on my phone than talk
Nov 05 09:03:51 <zash> I have a shuffle and a nokia 3310..
Nov 05 09:06:52 <ixs> anyone ever seen "qemu-arm: error while loading shared libraries: cannot restore segment prot after reloc: Permission denied" while generating locales?
Nov 05 09:08:03 <CM> I think I got that some time a few months ago
Nov 05 09:08:17 <CM> I disabled locales instead, so I haven't seen it for a while
Nov 05 09:09:28 <CM> ixs: ENABLE_BINARY_LOCALE_GENERATION = "0"  if you don't need the locales
Nov 05 09:10:09 <ixs> CM: yeah, I know that this works around the issue, but shouldn't we fix this in the first place?
Nov 05 09:10:18 <CM> Of course :)
Nov 05 09:10:41 <CM> If there's no bug about it, file one
Nov 05 09:10:51 <ixs> yeah...
Nov 05 09:11:18 <CM> But maybe try rebuilding some dependencies first, and make sure you have the latest updated oe/om sources
Nov 05 09:12:23 <ixs> hmm
Nov 05 09:12:27 <ixs> nah, problem is different:
Nov 05 09:12:28 <ixs> avc: denied { execmod } for comm=qemu-arm dev=dm-0 name=qemu-arm pid=8857
Nov 05 09:12:28 <ixs> scontext=root:system_r:unconfined_t:s0-s0:c0.c1023 tclass=file
Nov 05 09:12:28 <ixs> tcontext=root:object_r:user_home_t:s0
Nov 05 09:12:31 <ixs> :/
Nov 05 09:12:36 <ixs> my own fault. :D
Nov 05 09:14:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 990 has been created by rishi_date(AT)yahoo.com
Nov 05 09:14:01 <cdbot2> * * Missing libxod.tar.gz while building openmoko from scratch
Nov 05 09:14:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=990
Nov 05 09:26:45 <mbuf> is it ok to export PKG_CONFIG_PATH in Makefile.am, or should it be set somewhere else?
Nov 05 09:28:11 <hrw> mbuf: do NOT play with it at all
Nov 05 09:29:14 <mbuf> hrw, for OM application development, i want to set it
Nov 05 09:29:33 <hrw> mbuf: project should not play with toolchain settings, include dir settings (other then inside of project), libraries dirs should not be forced too
Nov 05 09:29:57 <hrw> mbuf: and when someone will build it from outside of your builddir it will breaks?
Nov 05 09:30:20 <mbuf> hrw, it is a plugin for an IDE for OM development? i ask them for OM build directory location
Nov 05 09:30:46 <mbuf> hrw, during project creation
Nov 05 09:31:14 <hrw> why not set PKG_CONFIG_PATH in build environment?
Nov 05 09:31:30 <hrw> you will use external toolchain not OE itself - right?
Nov 05 09:31:50 <mbuf> hrw, in setup-env? no, using toolchain built with OM
Nov 05 09:32:45 <hrw> ok
Nov 05 09:36:50 * rwhitby wonders if anyone has done an OE setup for Eclipse ...
Nov 05 09:49:38 <hrw> or anjuta
Nov 05 09:57:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 991 has been created by mickey(AT)vanille-media.de
Nov 05 09:57:01 <cdbot2> * * PMU driver doesn't populate initial input device status
Nov 05 09:57:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=991
Nov 05 09:57:35 <mbuf> hrw, i am attempting for Anjuta;
Nov 05 09:57:58 <mbuf> hrw, standalone Makefile works,; autotools builds fine (just sorting out CC, PKG_CONFIG)
Nov 05 09:58:18 <mbuf> hrw, *autotools method
Nov 05 10:09:24 <CIA-13> openmoko: 03mickey * r3357 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/src/ (Makefile.am buttonactions.c): 
Nov 05 10:09:24 <CIA-13> openmoko: neod: add workaround for gathering the initial KEY_BATTERY status
Nov 05 10:09:24 <CIA-13> openmoko: until OM bug #991 has been fixed
Nov 05 10:13:33 <hrw> mbuf: is there a way to look at your changes?
Nov 05 10:14:54 <mbuf> hrw, sure
Nov 05 10:15:31 <hrw> cool - url?
Nov 05 10:15:43 <mbuf> hrw, i can upload the source, hold on; have actually customized anjuta-2.2.2/plugins/project-wizard/templates/
Nov 05 10:19:25 <hrw> cool
Nov 05 10:23:29 <mbuf> hrw, http://pastebin.ca/762077 - this will generate a standalone Makefile with main.c
Nov 05 10:25:20 <mbuf> hrw, i haven't yet made a plugin; right now it needs to built with the Anjuta sources
Nov 05 10:26:12 <CM> mbuf: Nice :)
Nov 05 10:26:20 <hrw> intersting
Nov 05 10:26:24 <CM> I've never used anjuta yet though
Nov 05 10:26:39 <hrw> I forwarded to a friend which wanted to try such combo one day
Nov 05 10:27:17 <mbuf> CM, i hardly use IDEs; just trying to do it for others to use it;
Nov 05 10:27:36 <zash> vim ftw :D
Nov 05 10:27:59 * hrw use gvim
Nov 05 10:28:57 <mbuf> hrw, there are lot of API changes in Anjuta 2.2.2, so its important to use it; i'll try to get it approved from the Anjuta core team, and so it can be integrated into their trunk
Nov 05 10:29:04 * mbuf uses emacs
Nov 05 10:30:55 <CM> mbuf: As long as it's not xemacs that's ok.. ;)
Nov 05 10:32:40 <mbuf> CM, hehe
Nov 05 10:34:45 <mbuf> are we allowed to reuse OpenMoko logos as icons for OM applications? or do we need to get permission from the team?
Nov 05 10:55:14 <mickey|tv> mbuf: the whole artwork is licensed under creative commons 
Nov 05 11:04:24 <mbuf> mickey|tv, thanks!
Nov 05 11:46:34 <flexd> hmmm
Nov 05 11:46:56 <flexd> What are the chances a version of neo1973 will get wifi *and* a camera?
Nov 05 11:47:00 <flexd> in any future release
Nov 05 11:47:17 <CIA-13> openmoko: 03mickey * r3358 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/src/buttonactions.c: neod: use proper keycode this time
Nov 05 11:47:23 <flexd> I got this idea for a thing, which sort of requires both things, but could be kinda cool if i get it working ;o
Nov 05 11:47:54 <CM> flexd: It won't be a neo if it has that, but maybe some future device. :)
Nov 05 11:48:14 <flexd> CM: what do you mean? ^^ 
Nov 05 11:48:25 <zash> flexd: how about neo gta02 + bt-cam built into the back-housing
Nov 05 11:48:38 <CM> I hope the Neo1973 will sell enough for FIC/OpenMoko to make some more cool hardware versions
Nov 05 11:48:51 <flexd> zash: aslong as the camera is somewhat attached to the phone it's cool
Nov 05 11:49:03 <flexd> in theory i dont really require the phone at all to do it, but it would be kinda cool
Nov 05 11:50:22 <flexd> Might be a bit silly idea, but i was thinking of a "where-am-i-now" feature for my ircbot/a website, where you could have a program that sends your gps coords (if you want to) / a picture or something and you can write a title.
Nov 05 11:50:31 <Ghiottone|work> hello
Nov 05 11:50:45 <flexd> Just something that came to me during a trip to the mall, might be cool for roadtrips and such, traveling :)
Nov 05 11:50:49 <flexd> Ghiottone|work: hi
Nov 05 11:51:15 <CM> flexd: Maybe make use of picasa with google maps or something similar :)
Nov 05 11:51:31 <flexd> CM: yeah exactly my thoughts
Nov 05 11:51:32 <zash> flexd: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Camera
Nov 05 11:52:01 <flexd> zash: nice
Nov 05 11:52:07 <flexd> and brb, work calls :(
Nov 05 11:55:30 * ScaredyCat jiggles
Nov 05 11:57:08 <ScaredyCat> flexd: http://www.automated.it/gm/wop.php
Nov 05 11:58:00 <ScaredyCat> flexd: http://www.automated.it/gm/wot.php even
Nov 05 12:01:48 <flexd> ScaredyCat: what's that?
Nov 05 12:02:30 <flexd> oh, something like i was talking about
Nov 05 12:02:31 <ScaredyCat> that's an example of google maps, and plotting position... it wouldn;t take much to make it poll a db server
Nov 05 12:03:04 <flexd> hmmm
Nov 05 12:03:05 <flexd> nice
Nov 05 12:03:35 <flexd> Not totally sure how i'd do it though
Nov 05 12:04:18 <flexd> Kinda depends on having wifi zones open and all around (or making the phone into some wifi cracking badass mofo, which i highly doubt is possible on-the-go :p), or using gprs or something, but then it will also cost money :/
Nov 05 12:04:37 <gi-el> flexd: depends on your data plan
Nov 05 12:05:02 <ScaredyCat> well, tbh, you can limit how the data is sent.
Nov 05 12:05:08 <flexd> gi-el: it's pretty much non-existant atm, i thought of this idea yesterday
Nov 05 12:05:11 <flexd> and i done have ap hone either so ^^ 
Nov 05 12:05:13 <flexd> a phone*
Nov 05 12:05:40 <ScaredyCat> the the tomtom go app I worte, I used 30 seconds on 150m difference in position, whichever came first.
Nov 05 12:05:46 <flexd> but i can make it do wifi if there's a open zone available, if not do other things
Nov 05 12:05:51 <ScaredyCat> plus the amount of data to send is tiny
Nov 05 12:05:58 <flexd> and/or
Nov 05 12:06:07 <gi-el> so, let's see this new angstrom image
Nov 05 12:06:16 <flexd> I could make it connect to wifi zones based on gps location, if i configure several zones all around
Nov 05 12:07:26 <gi-el> or just use wpa_supplicant which will find a configured AP automatically
Nov 05 12:07:44 <ScaredyCat> join somehting like fon
Nov 05 12:08:38 <gi-el> why does gsmd still not work with my phone, while other people are using it successfully?
Nov 05 12:08:42 <gi-el> i'll have to look into this
Nov 05 12:09:34 <flexd> gi-el: I just found out about the phone, i have little to no clue about what i can expect and stuff, i've been reading the wiki all day but i'm sure there's still tons of stuff i havent discovered or thought of yet
Nov 05 12:10:25 <gi-el> dammit
Nov 05 12:10:40 <gi-el> "The biggest news is that dialing "Just Works(TM)" now, turn on the phone, open the dialer and you can make calls."
Nov 05 12:10:43 <gi-el> well, no fucking way
Nov 05 12:10:44 <gi-el> :(
Nov 05 12:11:13 <ScaredyCat> when was that posted?
Nov 05 12:11:45 <flexd> more important; WHERE was that posted?
Nov 05 12:12:00 <flexd> I'm gonna have a phone here (well two actually), the second the gta02 gets out i think
Nov 05 12:12:42 <gi-el> http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-progress
Nov 05 12:13:28 <gi-el> but it's not true, gsmd still does the same for me, i.e., nothing when used by something besides libgsmd-tool
Nov 05 12:13:47 <gi-el> i can use it with libgsmd-tool, but when the gui tries to send commands the modem never replies
Nov 05 12:14:19 <mjr> for me, I need to init the modem with -tool, after that the gui works. Which is nice.
Nov 05 12:15:06 <gi-el> mjr: do you init the modem while gui is running, or do you start the gui afterwards?
Nov 05 12:15:12 <mjr> while
Nov 05 12:15:25 <gi-el> k, let's try that, that might be something i haven't tried yet
Nov 05 12:15:56 <mjr> installed this a few days back
Nov 05 12:16:12 <CIA-13> openmoko: 03mickey * r3359 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/ (2 files in 2 dirs): usb|battery panel plugin: take into account usb enumeration timings
Nov 05 12:17:24 <gi-el> ** (openmoko-dialer:1844): WARNING **: Method "Dial" with signature "s" on interface "org.openmoko.Dialer" doesn't exist
Nov 05 12:17:29 <gi-el> yes, works fine.
Nov 05 12:17:31 <gi-el> not.
Nov 05 12:17:34 <gi-el> :)
Nov 05 12:18:53 <mickey|tv> thos has warned you to use 3306
Nov 05 12:18:56 <mickey|tv> of the dialer
Nov 05 12:19:34 <Ghiottone|work> mickey|tv hi
Nov 05 12:19:38 <mickey|tv> for until he's finished
Nov 05 12:20:00 <gi-el> mickey|tv: i'm just bitching a bit, don't mind me too much
Nov 05 12:20:25 <Ghiottone|work> mickey|tv just a quick reminder on ipkgorphan (http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2954). I fixed the recipe and added the Makefile.
Nov 05 12:22:08 <flexd> I know i could probably find this on the wiki. but, once the gta02 gets released, how long would it be until the next hardware version gets released/is that gonna be like the "end-user"-hardware part? So just software remains?
Nov 05 12:22:26 <_buz> flexd: nobody knows
Nov 05 12:22:44 <mickey|tv> gta02 is the end-user hardware
Nov 05 12:22:50 <_buz> i'd be surprised if gta03 would appear before fall08 for that matter
Nov 05 12:23:01 <flexd> I'm not that much of a c/c++ coder (whatever i do is like super hacky/could be done in better ways), but i'd really like to try to contribute something with python coding (which im also quite new at), but my wallet sadly cant afford getting a gta02 and then a few months later havign to get a newer version >_>
Nov 05 12:23:06 <mickey|tv> i would be surprised if gta03 appears in 2008
Nov 05 12:23:26 <_buz> flexd: there it is, gta02 will last for at least a year ;)
Nov 05 12:23:34 <flexd> good
Nov 05 12:23:43 <_buz> plus if you do code useful stuff, you might get a free upgrade, who knows
Nov 05 12:23:44 <Ghiottone|work> bbl lunch time
Nov 05 12:24:06 <flexd> I'l try my best, but i doubt my code will be very useful (or readable for that matter)
Nov 05 12:24:42 <flexd> Mostly for my own fun and learning experience i guess, + i could use a new phone, this w810i is pissing me off
Nov 05 12:39:50 <CIA-13> openmoko: 03mickey * r3360 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/panel-plugins/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
Nov 05 12:39:50 <CIA-13> openmoko: openmoko-panel-[usb|battery]: we're in the same process space, so need to deliver
Nov 05 12:39:50 <CIA-13> openmoko: DBUS_HANDLER_RESULT_NOT_YET_HANDLED after returning from the filter. Otherwise
Nov 05 12:39:50 <CIA-13> openmoko: only one of us will get called.
Nov 05 12:39:56 <StylusEater> so my mokomakefile just finished building...
Nov 05 12:40:05 <StylusEater> :-)
Nov 05 12:45:59 <StylusEater> mokoBuild/build/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973  ... is that where I should expect my new images to be located? I assume so b/c that's all I can find along the lines of bin files with a similar name to the initial ones I downloaded from the wiki...
Nov 05 12:54:00 <StylusEater> bbl
Nov 05 13:17:58 <darx> hi folks
Nov 05 13:18:14 <darx> when is the consumer version being released?
Nov 05 13:18:59 <darx> any body home?
Nov 05 13:19:54 <zash> darx: when its ready, it will be released
Nov 05 13:20:11 <darx> zash: hows the development going?
Nov 05 13:20:52 <zash> anyways, read topic
Nov 05 13:21:03 <CM> darx: It was slow during september, but a lot has happened the last month :)
Nov 05 13:21:39 <wibbit> darx: Remember, there has also been a split between "Consumer Hardware" and "Consumer OS". I believe currently the hardware is scheduled for release late December, however the software may come after that
Nov 05 13:22:15 <anders_> What is the procedure for getting new packages into oe?
Nov 05 13:22:18 <darx> cool
Nov 05 13:22:45 <CM> anders_: I think posting to OE bugzilla is the way to go
Nov 05 13:22:49 <XorA> anders_: put a patch against OE using mtn diff in bugzilla
Nov 05 13:22:55 <XorA> anders_: bugs.openembedded.org
Nov 05 13:23:36 <anders_> Great thanks. Then I'll just have to fininh up my package and bitbakery :)
Nov 05 13:28:43 <flexd> arr, qemu makes me bleed
Nov 05 13:29:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 992 has been created by erin_yueh(AT)openmoko.com
Nov 05 13:29:01 <cdbot2> * * cannot read the message data if the sender number is in phonebook.
Nov 05 13:29:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=992
Nov 05 13:31:29 <_buz> http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/11/05/139210.shtml
Nov 05 13:31:54 <_buz> that is much more important than the iphone
Nov 05 13:40:34 <CM> _buz: Sure is. I wonder what java they use
Nov 05 13:40:48 <_buz> i doubt its savaje
Nov 05 13:40:53 <_buz> otherwise we'd read sun there
Nov 05 13:41:01 <CM> yes
Nov 05 13:41:24 <_buz> and google being the control freaks they are, they dont wanna share ;)
Nov 05 13:42:05 <_buz> somehow i expect the sdk not to be open source 
Nov 05 13:42:33 <CM> Wouldn't surprise me either. Open APIs though..
Nov 05 13:43:10 <_buz> more importantly: if theres linux on it, openmoko will be easily done
Nov 05 13:43:31 <CM> Yes, the drivers for the kernel must be there
Nov 05 13:43:43 <_buz> which just may turn out to be real problem for FIC
Nov 05 13:44:59 <_buz> lets see, one of those tiny samsung win mobile treo clones would be neat
Nov 05 13:47:05 <_buz> or a ming with wifi ;)
Nov 05 13:47:12 <CM> Hehe
Nov 05 13:47:47 <CM> _buz: I don't want to talk using this guy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7066389.stm
Nov 05 13:48:13 <_buz> so that's why its called ming? or because ming is evil and powerful?
Nov 05 13:48:54 <CM> Maybe Flash Gordon was trade marked
Nov 05 13:49:22 <_buz> or maybe it was more of an emperor ming in china?
Nov 05 13:49:30 <_buz> the ming is primarily sold in china AFAIK
Nov 05 13:50:05 <CM> Yes, I assume so too. Would be funnier if it was named after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_the_Merciless
Nov 05 14:34:59 * ScaredyCat pokes rwhitby
Nov 05 14:35:43 <Ghiottone|work> back
Nov 05 14:36:52 * ScaredyCat stabs Ghiottone|work since there's noone else to stab
Nov 05 14:37:28 * LarstiQ pokes ScaredyCat in the back
Nov 05 14:37:48 * ScaredyCat pats anti-poking armour
Nov 05 14:38:01 * LarstiQ disappears in a whiff of smoke.
Nov 05 14:40:01 <Ghiottone|work> what is everybody doing on the neo?
Nov 05 14:41:48 <CM> Ghiottone|work: I'm moslty just looking at it.. :P
Nov 05 14:41:58 <CM> *mostly
Nov 05 14:43:09 <ScaredyCat> moistly!
Nov 05 14:43:14 <Ghiottone|work> http://xkcd.com/225/
Nov 05 14:43:21 <Ghiottone|work> CM: pity, why?
Nov 05 14:43:51 <Ghiottone|work> there is a lot to do
Nov 05 14:44:23 <CM> Ghiottone|work: I know, but "RealLife" keeps stealing time :-/
Nov 05 14:44:53 <jeddy3> ScaredyCat, xD
Nov 05 14:45:12 <LittleIdiot> i still wonder why people are so keen about writing and porting python foo when essentials like the dialer aren't even working correctly...
Nov 05 14:45:43 <emdete> LittleIdiot: even more: the gsmd would be the first thing to start with...
Nov 05 14:46:27 <jeddy3> maybe not all people is interested/involved or have knowledge in libgsmd
Nov 05 14:47:09 <LittleIdiot> or maybe they think harald would be pissed if somebody makes suggestions ;)
Nov 05 14:47:46 <LittleIdiot> well, when i'm done with my app, i'll have a look at that
Nov 05 14:48:35 <CM> I think mwester have been poking around quite a lot with the gsmd issues
Nov 05 14:48:38 <jeddy3> LittleIdiot, why are you so keen on writing app foo when essentials like the dialer aren't even working correctly...? ;) 
Nov 05 14:49:16 <LittleIdiot> jeddy3: because the gsmd and dialer tasks are assigned already
Nov 05 14:51:05 <Ghiottone|work> what else is being worked on?
Nov 05 14:51:14 <jeddy3> LittleIdiot, there you have it :)
Nov 05 14:51:18 <wibbit> emdete: I thought gsmd was sorted? I'm sure I've seen a post to that effect in the mailing list
Nov 05 14:52:10 <LittleIdiot> the neod also needs a few fixes
Nov 05 14:52:33 <LittleIdiot> by the way - is there a reason for putting so many functions into one program? (neod)
Nov 05 14:52:50 <SpeedEvil> To avoid IPC
Nov 05 14:53:02 <SpeedEvil> also - much of it is really closely tied together
Nov 05 14:53:22 <LittleIdiot> ok, makes sense
Nov 05 14:53:52 <SpeedEvil> A power managment daemon, for example, would have to know about the current audio state, and if it makes sense to suspend between touches.
Nov 05 15:09:04 <cb23> SpeedEvil, is that possible?
Nov 05 15:26:14 <CIA-13> openmoko: 03thomas * r3361 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (3 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
Nov 05 15:26:14 <CIA-13> openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-dialer.c: (moko_dialer_dial),
Nov 05 15:26:14 <CIA-13> openmoko: (moko_dialer_init):
Nov 05 15:26:14 <CIA-13> openmoko: - Remove any GTK+ dependencies
Nov 05 15:26:14 <CIA-13> openmoko: - Actually dial the requested number
Nov 05 15:26:16 <CIA-13> openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-talking.c: (moko_talking_incoming_call),
Nov 05 15:26:20 <CIA-13> openmoko: (moko_talking_outgoing_call), (on_silence_clicked),
Nov 05 15:27:11 * cjb_ie likes "Actually dial the requested number"
Nov 05 15:30:10 <ScaredyCat> yeah, useful :D
Nov 05 15:36:13 <gi-el> as opposed to, a complete random number? ;)
Nov 05 15:37:06 <xzcvczx> as opposed to the ex you got a new cell number to stop them hassling you and happen to have their number on your new phone and it dials them instead
Nov 05 15:37:11 <LittleIdiot> is there a "hangup" button yet? ;)
Nov 05 15:38:21 <bedboi> hi there
Nov 05 15:38:23 <bedboi> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/6cccca23b7fc077d5348eeb754caaf2d.png
Nov 05 15:38:25 <bedboi> what's this?
Nov 05 15:38:34 <ScaredyCat> the default was to dial the NSA and then play the "I'm a terrorist" wav file
Nov 05 15:38:54 <zash> haha
Nov 05 15:39:21 <xzcvczx> ScaredyCat: gotta ask which ones actually worse though
Nov 05 15:39:43 <Ghiottone|work> bedboi it's cellwriter
Nov 05 15:39:52 <bedboi> yep, but is it working?
Nov 05 15:40:07 <xzcvczx> if its anything like ringing the piracy number to say you got a pirated copy of the movie and just get stuffed round til you hang up then i would rather your one
Nov 05 15:40:47 <CM> Ghiottone|work: You got it running? :)
Nov 05 15:41:31 <Ghiottone|work> bedboi I don't know how much it is working. but it runs on the neo. and you can try it. I made a package for it and it's available in my feed
Nov 05 15:41:34 <Ghiottone|work> CM: yep :)
Nov 05 15:41:41 <CM> Ghiottone|work: Cool :D
Nov 05 15:41:48 <bedboi> Ghiottone|work: who is developing it?
Nov 05 15:41:58 <bedboi> i mean is it an openmoko effort?
Nov 05 15:43:50 <abraxa_> bedboi: Nope, independent
Nov 05 15:43:58 <Ghiottone|work> bedboi no it is an existing open source project
Nov 05 15:43:58 <Ghiottone|work> bedboi risujin.org/cellwriter/
Nov 05 15:44:19 <bedboi> Ghiottone|work: thanks for the pointer
Nov 05 15:44:30 <Ghiottone|work> bedboi np :)
Nov 05 15:54:37 <xzcvczx> is it just my lack of knowledge or c or is it bad to use a command line program to do something instead of using libs to do it?
Nov 05 15:54:56 <cjb_ie> from a c program you mean?
Nov 05 15:55:04 <xzcvczx> yup
Nov 05 15:55:15 * xzcvczx needs to learn to be more clear
Nov 05 15:55:37 <zash> no shellexec()?
Nov 05 15:55:41 <zash> or similar
Nov 05 15:56:29 <cjb_ie> xzcvczx: it's considered fairly hackish to do it alright
Nov 05 15:57:11 <xzcvczx> cjb_ie: ok
Nov 05 16:03:46 * ScaredyCat pokes at broken svn crap
Nov 05 16:04:06 <CIA-13> openmoko: 03thomas * r3362 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokogsmd2/ (ChangeLog libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.c): 
Nov 05 16:04:06 <CIA-13> openmoko: * libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.c: (moko_gsmd_connection_init): Don't
Nov 05 16:04:06 <CIA-13> openmoko:  blindly try to restart gsmd when connecting to it fails
Nov 05 16:13:26 <_buz> how hard is it to use cellwriter on neo?
Nov 05 16:13:39 <_buz> the cells look kinda small
Nov 05 16:13:44 * cjb_ie ponders http://www.android.com/
Nov 05 16:14:35 <_buz> do they have hardware?
Nov 05 16:14:47 <_buz> we have like 100 software projects
Nov 05 16:14:50 <_buz> but no hardware to run them on
Nov 05 16:17:20 <cjb_ie> guess we'll wait and see
Nov 05 16:17:22 <Sup3rkiddo> hmm, gphone doing its round in /., will it have openmoko as initially rumoured/
Nov 05 16:18:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 993 has been created by tick(AT)openmoko.com
Nov 05 16:18:02 <cdbot2> * * Provide Current Call status
Nov 05 16:18:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=993
Nov 05 16:18:41 <_buz> Sup3rkiddo: i doubt it
Nov 05 16:18:47 <_buz> they say its java on top of some linux
Nov 05 16:19:07 <_buz> and i'm pretty sure none of the phone companies would dare touching OM
Nov 05 16:19:09 <cb23> xzcvczx, get your neo working again?
Nov 05 16:19:14 <xzcvczx> cb23: not yet
Nov 05 16:19:27 <cb23> :/ what do you thinks up?
Nov 05 16:19:40 <xzcvczx> powered it off about 2 hrs ago so will try again in the morning as its just been plugged in booted for the last 24 hrs
Nov 05 16:19:59 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: Does your Neo work again?
Nov 05 16:20:09 <cb23> <xzcvczx> cb23: not yet
Nov 05 16:20:13 <abraxa_> oh
Nov 05 16:20:17 <abraxa_> lol, my bad
Nov 05 16:20:19 <xzcvczx> either the screen connector has come loose (but no idea where the flek it is to check it) or i dont know
Nov 05 16:20:28 <cb23> does it get picked up?
Nov 05 16:20:37 <xzcvczx> does it get picked up?
Nov 05 16:20:48 <cb23> ie, does your pc detect it
Nov 05 16:20:48 <xzcvczx> the touch will turn the screen on when its off
Nov 05 16:20:53 <xzcvczx> yeah
Nov 05 16:21:40 <xzcvczx> the reason i ended up pulling phone apart in first place though was the touchscreen was playing up and having really random responses and very little of the screen was 'touchable'
Nov 05 16:22:10 <xzcvczx> and it wasnt bringing up crap if i cated touchscreen0 and wasnt touching the screen
Nov 05 16:23:27 <hrw> xzcvczx: whic hardware?
Nov 05 16:25:12 <xzcvczx> hrw: v4
Nov 05 16:27:15 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: just tried again and still all white and nothing else(does boot though)
Nov 05 16:27:19 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: Feel free to mail roh / MichaelShiloh for support, too - they'll try to help. Alternatively you can also mail FIC's support but I dunno how quickly you'll get responses
Nov 05 16:27:27 <abraxa_> Ah dang.
Nov 05 16:27:44 <xzcvczx> indeed
Nov 05 16:28:39 <xzcvczx> hrw: i assume thats what you were wanting to know?
Nov 05 16:29:39 <xzcvczx> roh: you around?
Nov 05 16:32:57 <hrw> yep
Nov 05 16:35:33 <xzcvczx> hrw: got any hints?
Nov 05 16:36:22 <hrw> no sorry
Nov 05 16:44:57 * xzcvczx kicks phone
Nov 05 16:46:16 <xzcvczx> hmmm its not accepting input on the touchscreen either now
Nov 05 17:01:28 * ScaredyCat installs Google OS 
Nov 05 17:01:38 <xzcvczx> :o
Nov 05 17:02:47 <ScaredyCat> Oooh, Goldfish is shipping
Nov 05 17:08:11 <Writchie> android looks like the end of openmoko 
Nov 05 17:08:48 <robtaylor> goldfish? android?
Nov 05 17:09:15 * robtaylor is obviously missing out on neat google insider info
Nov 05 17:09:38 <Writchie> robtaylor: google's announcement - open handset alliance
Nov 05 17:10:26 <robtaylor> oh god, not limo, please, not limo
Nov 05 17:10:37 * robtaylor weaps in anguish
Nov 05 17:12:58 <stefan_schmidt> Writchie: Link?
Nov 05 17:13:07 <guaqua> this is something: http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/
Nov 05 17:13:14 <Writchie> http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/20071105_mobile_open.html
Nov 05 17:13:36 <Writchie> http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/developers.html
Nov 05 17:13:38 <CM> Heh, http://www.android.com is the same
Nov 05 17:14:04 <stefan_schmidt> Writchie: thanks
Nov 05 17:14:11 * stefan_schmidt reads
Nov 05 17:14:19 <guaqua> this is bad for nokia
Nov 05 17:14:32 <guaqua> therefor bad for finland :(
Nov 05 17:14:34 <wirrwarr> heya~
Nov 05 17:14:52 <Ghiottone|work> lot of interesting names in android's company list
Nov 05 17:15:13 <stefan_schmidt> second half of 2008, still some time. :)
Nov 05 17:15:21 <Writchie> nokia will jump in when it starts to gain traction
Nov 05 17:15:21 <cjb_ie> vapourware!
Nov 05 17:15:24 <moko-bunny> I'm thinking their definition of open may be a bit different than ours....
Nov 05 17:15:30 <Writchie> stefan_schmidt: not in mobile time
Nov 05 17:15:33 <ozarka> I want screen shots.
Nov 05 17:15:42 <ozarka> Vaporware should always come with screen shots.
Nov 05 17:15:46 <guaqua> :>
Nov 05 17:16:10 <Writchie> its the middleware layer that most important
Nov 05 17:16:11 <ozarka> The press release says "first truly open and comprehensive platform for mobile devices"
Nov 05 17:16:17 <stefan_schmidt> Writchie: The members list looks interesting. We will see what they can offer us. :)
Nov 05 17:16:23 <ozarka> I wonder what "truly open" means.
Nov 05 17:16:35 <Writchie> can't wait to see the license agreement
Nov 05 17:16:36 <guaqua> have those companies done anything truly open?
Nov 05 17:16:42 <Writchie> let the patent wars begin
Nov 05 17:16:50 <ozarka> SDK next week.  That will be the interesting part.
Nov 05 17:16:54 <moko-bunny> Marvell is horrible for datasheets
Nov 05 17:17:48 <stefan_schmidt> It's always a question of pressure. :)
Nov 05 17:18:11 <ozarka> http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_overview.html
Nov 05 17:18:17 <ozarka> Has some details on the OS.
Nov 05 17:18:43 <stefan_schmidt> Android? will deliver a complete set of software for mobile devices: an operating system, middleware and key mobile applications.
Nov 05 17:18:48 <ozarka> Built on Linux kernel, open source, custom virtual machine
Nov 05 17:18:55 <stefan_schmidt> Wow, a complete new OS.
Nov 05 17:19:08 <ozarka> They claim it's going to be really easy to write applications for this platform.
Nov 05 17:19:23 <ozarka> I wonder what language I'll be using.
Nov 05 17:19:52 <morricone> I think they are just afraid of the power of OM
Nov 05 17:20:21 <ozarka> morricone: clearly just a kneejerk reaction to the Neo
Nov 05 17:21:13 <xzcvczx> is there any way to take the screen off the neo (if anyone knows)
Nov 05 17:21:13 <guaqua> i'm thinking some sort of java
Nov 05 17:21:16 <guaqua> or mono
Nov 05 17:21:44 <GNAM> ANDROID announced :P
Nov 05 17:21:52 <ozarka> Doesn't look like Sun was invited to the party.
Nov 05 17:22:06 <ozarka> GNAM:  really!!!?!!!  :-)
Nov 05 17:23:19 <CM> ozarka: I'm sure it's java too, but I wonder what kind since SUN isn't there..
Nov 05 17:23:38 <ozarka> If it's Java, they're sure avoiding the j-word.
Nov 05 17:23:45 <Writchie> missing from list are Nokia, Sony-Ericsson, Matsushita
Nov 05 17:23:53 <morricone> The Apache license allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the open-source community.
Nov 05 17:24:19 <ozarka> They might take a MS approach and do a Vm that different languages can target.
Nov 05 17:24:23 <stefan_schmidt> morricone: I just found the same. Nice. :)
Nov 05 17:24:36 <ozarka> Let the language ways begin!
Nov 05 17:24:41 <guaqua> the joy...
Nov 05 17:24:59 <guaqua> "without the requirement to contribute those innocations back to the open-source community"
Nov 05 17:25:02 <Writchie> stefan_schmidt: where did you see Apache license
Nov 05 17:25:13 <ozarka> If it doesn't support Forth, you can count me out.
Nov 05 17:25:19 <stefan_schmidt> Writchie: http://www.android.com/android_faq.html
Nov 05 17:25:53 <Writchie> tx
Nov 05 17:26:02 <guaqua> ""
Nov 05 17:26:12 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: is there a way to see what all the output pins for the lcd are set to (if you know)?
Nov 05 17:26:14 <guaqua> "Because these innovations and differentiated features can be kept proprietary, manufacturers and mobile operators are protected from the "viral infection" problem often associated with other licenses." ^______^
Nov 05 17:26:33 <ozarka> So OM for the the Copyleft crowd, and Apache for Big Business.
Nov 05 17:26:44 <ozarka> Where have we seen this battle before?
Nov 05 17:26:48 <Writchie> So November 12 comes the other nail in the coffin. 
Nov 05 17:27:04 <Writchie> Neo will make a great android phone
Nov 05 17:27:11 <Writchie> probably one of the first
Nov 05 17:27:14 <ozarka> Writchie: Put your Neo on eBay now.
Nov 05 17:28:19 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: The LCD controller is part of the S3C SoC so I assume you'd need a debug board and OpenOCD to at least attempt getting at those - unless you're refering to the PCB layout in which case I misunderstood your question :)
Nov 05 17:28:26 <guaqua> can something licensed under apache v2 license be forked and licensed under gpl?
Nov 05 17:28:43 <Writchie> why - i have two and its probably the best platform ATM
Nov 05 17:28:50 <ozarka> Uh oh, we have our first fork.
Nov 05 17:29:06 <ozarka> GnuDroid?
Nov 05 17:29:11 <guaqua> :>
Nov 05 17:29:22 <abraxa_> ozarka: Why should Writchie sell his Neo?
Nov 05 17:29:58 <ozarka> I was joking.  He said that Android was the end on OM and that the impending release of the SDK next week was the other nail in the coffin.
Nov 05 17:30:27 <abraxa_> haha
Nov 05 17:30:32 <abraxa_> Yeah, good one
Nov 05 17:30:40 * stefan_schmidt still dreams of a world of open phones were he can install what he like.
Nov 05 17:33:21 <abraxa_> "viral infection problem", my ass... if they draw from the vast pool of open source craft they sure should give something back instead of reaping in the benefits - into their own pockets
Nov 05 17:34:05 <guaqua> i wonder if they actually do reap from open source craft
Nov 05 17:34:20 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: :S you dont know what the ribbon cable going from one side of the board to the other carries by any chance then (not the bluetooth one)
Nov 05 17:34:46 <guaqua> trolltech isn't there either
Nov 05 17:34:47 <xzcvczx> guaqua: we will probably see a OM clone with advertising rebadged and relicense
Nov 05 17:34:51 <xzcvczx> d
Nov 05 17:35:02 <Ghiottone|work> seems like Android is the Google phone
Nov 05 17:35:05 * CM waits for the Google vs iPhone headlines
Nov 05 17:36:02 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: That ribbon cable has the LCD/TS signals as far as I can remember - I haven't dared prying the LCD off to see what really is going on there
Nov 05 17:37:17 <mrcucumber> Any thoughts about openmoko's role in light of the Gphone release
Nov 05 17:37:39 <guaqua> it really doesn't change a thing at this point
Nov 05 17:38:40 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: thats most likely where my issue lies then
Nov 05 17:39:21 * Writchie thinks quaqua is in denial already and its only been 39 minutes
Nov 05 17:39:38 <xzcvczx> 39 pins of f'in fidlyness
Nov 05 17:39:44 <ozarka> In the abstract, the platform is "truly open", but when it comes down to any specific device, it could be completely closed.
Nov 05 17:39:58 <mrcucumber> Since the Gphone software is Open Source we should be able to run it on openmoko if we wanted right?
Nov 05 17:40:15 <Writchie> yes AFAIK so far
Nov 05 17:40:17 <guaqua> Writchie: does it really change a thing at this point?
Nov 05 17:40:20 <mrcucumber> or just take whatever libs we might want.
Nov 05 17:40:21 <stefan_schmidt> mrcucumber: With some modifications it should be possible
Nov 05 17:40:26 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: I dunno... I'd assume the cable is firmly attached and doesn't move - much less so by itself
Nov 05 17:40:31 <CM> What about the other way around?
Nov 05 17:40:37 <guaqua> before we get a glimpse of what it actually is, we can't say anything
Nov 05 17:40:41 <Writchie> quaqua: it changes where people put their effort
Nov 05 17:40:50 <CM> Would be kind of nice to run gphone apps on openmoko too 
Nov 05 17:40:58 <guaqua> for sure it does
Nov 05 17:41:09 <guaqua> but will the phones made on that platform be anywhere close to open?
Nov 05 17:41:24 <SpeedEvil> Possibly not - if they are ad based.
Nov 05 17:41:26 <Writchie> certainly, hardware manufacturers will focus on supporting this platform
Nov 05 17:41:46 <Writchie> where in the apache license does it say it has anything to do with ads?
Nov 05 17:41:48 <guaqua> well now you are making pretty big assumptions on how they are going to operate
Nov 05 17:41:50 <SpeedEvil> If it was me, I'd want a custom X server(or whatever) that supported mandatory adverts somewhere.
Nov 05 17:42:14 * |R wonders about the Apache v2 License
Nov 05 17:42:26 <SpeedEvil> And appropriate locking in of that kernel + x-server + ad-server
Nov 05 17:42:36 <ozarka> A carrier could add their own stuff and make it so your applications don't even work.
Nov 05 17:42:43 <guaqua> i don't think they're going to open their phones more than they have to. pushing a really bad deal down customers' throats has been the policy up until now, and what would change that?
Nov 05 17:42:50 <|R> ozarka : and they will
Nov 05 17:43:00 <Writchie> SpeedEvil: some for sure will go down that route
Nov 05 17:43:32 <SpeedEvil> ozarka: not quite - for example, you mod the x-server/wm so that it can send events saying 'I want to display an ad' - and giving the app some time to choose when to present the app.
Nov 05 17:43:33 <guaqua> only thing open is the common ground, and we don't have a whole lot on that yet
Nov 05 17:43:34 <|R> but if the platform is open, and there are some phone hardware maker willing to sell open phones... i guess it can always be installed by people like us
Nov 05 17:43:38 <dread> is it possible to upgrade the gsmd with ipkg ?
Nov 05 17:43:44 <|R> that would be the real change, in the end pushing more toward the open...
Nov 05 17:43:53 <mjr> dread, yes
Nov 05 17:44:01 <CM> mjr: I'm not so sure
Nov 05 17:44:04 <guaqua> |R: most definitely
Nov 05 17:44:08 <dread> do i need to remove the old packges first?
Nov 05 17:44:11 <CM> mjr: It has been split up I think
Nov 05 17:44:27 <Writchie> it will be the chinese manufacturers like ningbo bird, foxconn, etc. who will supply lots of generic phone hardware below this platform. 
Nov 05 17:44:31 <doc|work> anyone following this google conference call?
Nov 05 17:44:35 <Writchie> and fic too
Nov 05 17:44:52 <doc|work> (about the gphone)
Nov 05 17:45:04 <doc|work> or lack thereof
Nov 05 17:45:42 * xzcvczx could just imagine an ad based phone "call bob", (popup) calling bob is only 1 easy step away, just sign up at "iwanttocall.com" and your call will proceed (/popup), "end call with bob" (popup) ending call with bob is only one easy step away, just signup at iwanttoendcall.com and ending the call will proceed.
Nov 05 17:45:51 <doc|work> hehe
Nov 05 17:45:56 <doc|work> http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/05/live-coverage-of-googles-android-gphone-mobile-os-announcement/
Nov 05 17:46:31 <doc|work> it seems like lots of "we're announcing a platform!" "can we have details of the platform?" "next week" "wtf?"
Nov 05 17:46:45 <ozarka> Minimum req is 200Mhz ARM 9
Nov 05 17:46:53 <doc|work> also, it's htc and motorola, so, closed hardware
Nov 05 17:46:53 <xzcvczx> doc|work: they are the 21st centurary micro$oft
Nov 05 17:47:16 <doc|work> xzcvczx: not until they start really sucking, now they just suck in small ways
Nov 05 17:47:23 <doc|work> :)
Nov 05 17:47:28 <xzcvczx> lol
Nov 05 17:47:39 <xzcvczx> 22nd century micro$oft then
Nov 05 17:47:54 <doc|work> apache software license
Nov 05 17:48:02 <olle_> is this the official openmoko channel?
Nov 05 17:48:14 <doc|work> olle_: yup
Nov 05 17:48:16 <xzcvczx> olle_: no its just become the official android channel
Nov 05 17:48:20 <doc|work> haha
Nov 05 17:48:21 <xzcvczx> :P
Nov 05 17:48:22 <ozarka> "The best model to do volume is to be open" but not GPL.
Nov 05 17:48:24 <olle_> k, great
Nov 05 17:48:26 <doc|work> so, er, wtf is android?
Nov 05 17:48:30 <ozarka> Is there an Android channel?
Nov 05 17:48:34 <doc|work> I mean, "a platform" but beyond that?
Nov 05 17:48:55 <doc|work> seems to be cdma too
Nov 05 17:50:44 <doc|work> wow, some big names involved "Aplix, Ascender Corp., Audience, Broadcom Corp., China Mobile, eBay Inc., Esmertec, HTC Corp., Intel Corp., KDDI, Living Image, LG, Marvell Technology, Motorola Inc., NMS Communications, Noser, NTT DoCoMo, Nuance Communications Inc., Nvidia Corp., PacketVideo, Qualcomm Inc., Samsung Electronics, SiRF, SkyPop, SONiVOX, Sprint Nextel, Synaptics, TAT - The Astonishing Tribe, Telecom Italia, Telefónica SA, Texas Instr
Nov 05 17:51:04 <balrog-kun> ugh
Nov 05 17:51:07 <olle_> i have a question. (last time i had a question i really should had read the wiki more) currently the Neo1973 costs 300$. the mass-market release will cost 450$. suppose i dont want to spend 450$. is it a sane idea to order the phone now, and suppose that openmoko will be stable in the future, so i can use it?
Nov 05 17:51:24 <balrog-kun> the announcement says "However, the lack of a collaborative effort has made it a challenge for developers,...",
Nov 05 17:51:25 <SpeedEvil> It's an idea, yes.
Nov 05 17:51:46 <SpeedEvil> It has not been announced if 01 will be available after 02's release.
Nov 05 17:51:58 <xzcvczx> doc|work: lol probably the first they heard of it.... or they just want to sound cool y getting in behind google because google is one company that seems to make a difference
Nov 05 17:52:02 <ozarka> It's confirmed that carriers can create totally locked down devices.
Nov 05 17:52:02 <balrog-kun> i don't see where's the new colaborative effort now, if they don't mention openmoko and others
Nov 05 17:52:05 <SpeedEvil> And if you don't want accellerometer, or video accel, or wifi (or can live whjtout them)
Nov 05 17:52:15 <SpeedEvil> ozarka: they can do that with OM too
Nov 05 17:52:23 <olle_> i can live without them indeed
Nov 05 17:52:34 <dread> olle_: check out the updated hardware on the next revision
Nov 05 17:52:40 <olle_> maybe i will do so now i have your moral support
Nov 05 17:52:47 <bobesponja> the android SDK is not there yet: http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/developers.html
Nov 05 17:52:47 <olle_> i have already did
Nov 05 17:52:48 <doc|work> olle_: the hardware is different, what SpeedEvil said, also the cpu on that one is slower 266MHz as opposed to 400MHz
Nov 05 17:52:58 <SpeedEvil> ozarka: and indeed, I'd like to be able to lock my phone down so hard that it si a brick, to people even with a debug board.
Nov 05 17:53:01 <dread> olle_: i'm sure you don't want to get the old one :) the new one is worth 150$ mor, i recon :)
Nov 05 17:53:07 <ozarka> SpeedEvil:  really?  Isn't the licensing different?
Nov 05 17:53:31 <doc|work> xzcvczx: seeing no point in this at all. :)
Nov 05 17:53:33 <SpeedEvil> ozarka: the license does not preclude putting it onto a device on which the user has no root access.
Nov 05 17:53:43 <doc|work> why didn't they just use something like openmoko?
Nov 05 17:53:45 <ozarka> ok
Nov 05 17:53:52 <xzcvczx> doc|work: too open
Nov 05 17:53:54 <dread> olle_: maybe the battery power and the faster cpu are pretty important for a daily-use-smartphone :)
Nov 05 17:53:56 <guaqua> doc|work: can't modify and not release the sources
Nov 05 17:54:29 <doc|work> guaqua: ok then, so it's basically wince levels of openness. screw that
Nov 05 17:54:32 <guaqua> i.e. can't lock down as easily and can't prevent others from using the code base
Nov 05 17:54:41 <enjahova> instead of the alliance they should have called it the federation ^_^
Nov 05 17:54:43 <doc|work> "you can have an sdk, now piss off"
Nov 05 17:55:23 <olle_> actually, im not certainly attracted by 1973. if there were a main stream, cheaper, mobile phone with openmoko, i would have chose that for sure
Nov 05 17:55:45 <xzcvczx> olle_: with all the stuff the neo has its rather cheap
Nov 05 17:55:47 <olle_> forgive my horrible grammar
Nov 05 17:55:52 <doc|work> olle_: sure, and there may be in the future, but for now the neo is the only one planned :| 
Nov 05 17:55:53 <xzcvczx> like "gps" 
Nov 05 17:56:07 <SpeedEvil> xzcvczx: it's not cheap. It's more or less competitive.
Nov 05 17:56:13 <doc|work> olle_: it's cheaper and more open then *any* of the competition
Nov 05 17:56:24 <srj> seems that Qt is running pretty good on neo...
Nov 05 17:56:31 <doc|work> olle_: it really is a mini-computer
Nov 05 17:56:31 <xzcvczx> SpeedEvil: here its cheap, including shipping...... $900 for a phone that even has gps here
Nov 05 17:56:49 <olle_> indeed it has a lot of features, that doesnt make it cheap. my current phone costed me ~120 € 
Nov 05 17:56:56 <srj> any one knows where to find the bin file to flash it on my neo?
Nov 05 17:57:06 <xzcvczx> srj: bin file?
Nov 05 17:57:32 <xzcvczx> there are 2 things you must flash to have a usable phone
Nov 05 17:57:40 <doc|work> olle_: yep, but does your current phone have wifi/gps and a touchscreen? I get what you mean, I had no interest in smartphones thinking they were just expensive pdas, but this one has me hooked :)
Nov 05 17:57:40 <xzcvczx> a .jffs2 and a .cantremember
Nov 05 17:57:46 <srj> xzcvcx: yeah, the  .bin file... am i wrong somewhere?
Nov 05 17:57:56 <xzcvczx> buildhost.openmoko.org
Nov 05 17:58:12 <xzcvczx> srj: read getting started with the 1973 on the wiki
Nov 05 17:58:17 <olle_> but what the heck, i dont care about wifi, gps, or ESPECIALLY not a touch screen
Nov 05 17:58:22 <xzcvczx> much better at explaining and it has a better memory
Nov 05 17:58:23 <bobesponja> is there something not open on openmoko appart from the gps driver?
Nov 05 17:58:34 <xzcvczx> bobesponja: gsm firmware
Nov 05 17:58:49 <SpeedEvil> bluetooth firmware
Nov 05 17:58:49 <doc|work> olle_: so what about the neo did you like?
Nov 05 17:59:01 <doc|work> olle_: or rather openmoko
Nov 05 17:59:06 <olle_> the software
Nov 05 17:59:08 <osmosis> hi
Nov 05 17:59:12 <srj> xzcvcx: there is a link to Qtopia for neo in the wiki, but it is a .jffs2 file and is not flashing onto my neo
Nov 05 17:59:13 <bobesponja> so much of the drivers are not open :/
Nov 05 17:59:14 <olle_> free software. 
Nov 05 17:59:19 <bedboi> http://www.android.com/
Nov 05 17:59:26 <doc|work> olle_: you should be able to install that onto other phones, one sec
Nov 05 17:59:27 <osmosis> are you guys talkinga bout android ?
Nov 05 17:59:30 <bedboi> oh, i'm late
Nov 05 17:59:31 <bedboi> :)
Nov 05 17:59:34 <xzcvczx> srj: if you read the getting started it explains where everything is and how to do it
Nov 05 17:59:40 <xzcvczx> osmosis: nope
Nov 05 17:59:42 <bedboi> fuck ten minutes late
Nov 05 17:59:48 <bedboi> i'm getting old
Nov 05 17:59:49 <doc|work> osmosis: what's there to talk about? :)
Nov 05 18:00:04 <srj> xzcvczx: i guess i'll have to read it once more :)
Nov 05 18:00:11 <doc|work> osmosis: I mean, wtf is it? :) "a platform"
Nov 05 18:00:11 <osmosis> doc|work: is FIC hardware going to be compatible ?
Nov 05 18:00:19 <olle_> free, hackable, software. == *drool* heavy, large, PDA != *drool*
Nov 05 18:00:24 <doc|work> osmosis: no idea, they don't talk about it
Nov 05 18:00:27 <osmosis> doc|work: full SDK is to be released next week.
Nov 05 18:00:32 <doc|work> osmosis: exactly
Nov 05 18:00:38 <osmosis> doc|work: GTK based.
Nov 05 18:00:41 <doc|work> osmosis: it's an announcement of an announcement
Nov 05 18:00:48 <bobesponja> xzcvczx: are there plans to opensource the driver or is that illegal (espacially for the gsm and the fcc)?
Nov 05 18:00:58 <xzcvczx> osmosis: i dont think fic are going to make any attempt to make their phone compatible with android if anythning it will be the other way around
Nov 05 18:01:07 <xzcvczx> bobesponja: illegal for all 3
Nov 05 18:01:23 <xzcvczx> well i dunno whether illegal is the right work but would create a lot of legal issues
Nov 05 18:01:35 <xzcvczx> s/worword
Nov 05 18:01:40 * balrog-kun is sceptic about Android openness/code quality
Nov 05 18:01:53 <doc|work> olle_: there's a list of other devices on the wiki
Nov 05 18:02:05 <xzcvczx> s/s/worword/s/work/word
Nov 05 18:02:12 <doc|work> balrog-kun: same
Nov 05 18:02:28 <doc|work> if it can be locked down by providers (which they will do) then why bother
Nov 05 18:02:32 <olle_> ok. thanks doc 
Nov 05 18:02:52 <doc|work> if I wanted a locked down stupidphone I'd buy an iphone
Nov 05 18:02:52 <bobesponja> balrog-kun: well if openmoko is all closed source on the driver, the only thing android has to do is to be open on the GUI and it will be just as open as openmoko no?
Nov 05 18:03:12 <abraxa_> osmosis: How can Android be GTK-based and yet be available under an Apache 2 license?
Nov 05 18:03:32 <balrog-kun> a project that was secret for that long usually doesn't become very open, and usually the programmers assigned to it are the not very skilled ones who don't get to work on more fun projects
Nov 05 18:04:02 <xzcvczx> doc|work: i think the iphone is actually quite a nice phone just too closed/apple being too greedy but apart from that its quite nice
Nov 05 18:04:50 <xzcvczx> sweet paydat
Nov 05 18:04:52 <doc|work> xzcvczx: nice to look at. I'm not interested really beyond that. It's completely locked down.
Nov 05 18:04:52 <xzcvczx> payday
Nov 05 18:04:59 <osmosis> abraxa_: Where did you see the part about he Apache 2 license?  Okay, maybe its not GTK based, but it can run GTK the dev said in the video.
Nov 05 18:05:16 <doc|work> osmosis: they said it, and apache license, not apache 2 (if there's a difference)
Nov 05 18:05:34 <abraxa_> osmosis: http://www.android.com/android_faq.html says "Android will be made available as open source via the Apache v2 license."
Nov 05 18:05:44 <cb23> <olle_> free, hackable, software. == *drool* heavy, large, PDA != *drool*
Nov 05 18:06:02 <cb23> but unfortunatly as hackable software increases to infinty, so does size
Nov 05 18:06:15 <cb23> looks like the two are directly proportional for the time being :/
Nov 05 18:06:17 <olle_> maybe youre right. 
Nov 05 18:06:24 <doc|work> hah, google didn't make android
Nov 05 18:06:30 <doc|work> http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2005/tc20050817_0949_tc024.htm
Nov 05 18:06:49 <xzcvczx> doc|work: have google made anything?
Nov 05 18:06:55 <olle_> im a bit sceptical to the situation where everything open source seems to Have to be linux
Nov 05 18:07:05 <doc|work> xzcvczx: search? :)
Nov 05 18:07:24 <doc|work> olle_: it does? bsd people might argue otherwise :)
Nov 05 18:07:28 <xzcvczx> olle_: you dont think they would have it based on the open source version of windows mobile do you?
Nov 05 18:07:29 <|R> olle_ : they should have taken OpenBSD as their core? so everyone could lock it down a bit more  :P
Nov 05 18:07:42 <olle_> ok, im thinking more about embedded systems
Nov 05 18:07:49 <xzcvczx> doc|work: but all their stuff that makes people go wow
Nov 05 18:08:24 <|R> olle_ : i'm guessing linux saves way too much efforts with the current hardware to care about rewritting a fifth tcp/ip stack etc
Nov 05 18:08:30 <olle_> a lot of the reasons i HATE my current SE k310i could be fixed with free software. the same software (almost), but free. 
Nov 05 18:08:43 <olle_> no doubt JR
Nov 05 18:09:23 <doc|work> xzcvczx: it's easier to make stuff go wow when you have complete control
Nov 05 18:09:59 <cb23> it seems as if netbsd tends to 'run' on more things, while linux actually runs on more things
Nov 05 18:10:12 <xzcvczx> doc|work: i would hope that they would have complete control over their servers........
Nov 05 18:10:14 <CM> srj: ScaredyCat has a qtopia build from today: http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/
Nov 05 18:10:14 <cb23> with netbsd support x platform, but linux tends to have support for x device
Nov 05 18:11:28 <doc|work> xzcvczx: there's nothing special about anything google have done really. Search had been done before them and they're not really much better at it than now. Gmail? meh, gtalk = jabber, orkut? meh.
Nov 05 18:11:30 <osmosis> doc|work: abraxa_: What license is openmoko?
Nov 05 18:11:47 <abraxa_> osmosis: GPL2
Nov 05 18:12:25 <doc|work> xzcvczx: all they did was make using any of them less annoying (although I haven't used orkut)
Nov 05 18:13:01 <gi-el> doc|work: google docs, spreadsheet
Nov 05 18:13:23 <doc|work> gi-el: alternatives exist
Nov 05 18:13:24 <olle_> doc|work: google earth!
Nov 05 18:13:28 <doc|work> olle_: bought
Nov 05 18:13:37 <olle_> meh
Nov 05 18:13:41 <kdean06> doc|home, I have to say that they're not great technically, but they have a beneficial/dangerous marketing-esque way that turns their rehashes into gold. Sure, search existed, but Google made "search" and "Google" into the same thing, knowing people don't break habits.
Nov 05 18:13:42 <CM> gmail is so much better than any other email it's just silly
Nov 05 18:13:46 <gi-el> doc|work: yes, alternatives exist, but does that make it bad?
Nov 05 18:13:58 <doc|work> kdean06: aye, it's all about the inertia
Nov 05 18:14:02 <ScaredyCat> gmail sucks
Nov 05 18:14:09 <CM> Hehe
Nov 05 18:14:13 <doc|work> gi-el: I didn't say it did. I just said that nothing they did is special.
Nov 05 18:14:16 <CM> ScaredyCat: So do you :P
Nov 05 18:14:24 <enjahova> doc|work, are you crazy? its not about doing something new, Google has done things RIGHT. fast, smooth and free.
Nov 05 18:14:30 <gi-el> doc|work: combining it all is special :)
Nov 05 18:14:34 <ScaredyCat> it's slow, it doesn't understand greylisting, it sends dupes
Nov 05 18:14:43 <doc|work> enjahova: as I said, they made it less annoying....
Nov 05 18:14:55 <doc|work> enjahova: I'm not so sure selling on user data is "right"
Nov 05 18:14:58 <kdean06> CM, Personally, I disagree. I would have said it was good 6 months ago, until it started delaying messages, letting in spam and putting messages from different conversations togetehr. My IMAP + Squirrelmail has been more reliable, and that supports GPG. :)
Nov 05 18:15:07 <enjahova> i guess i see your point, as coders and such we can see that technically its not all that special
Nov 05 18:15:27 <CM> kdean06: Hmm.. I haven't noticed any of that. Just got the new gui too a few days ago, and it's really fast
Nov 05 18:15:29 <enjahova> besides their infrastructure
Nov 05 18:15:47 <doc|work> gi-el: combining it all isn't special, that's what businesses do, they consolidate things :)
Nov 05 18:15:55 <xzcvczx> SWEET
Nov 05 18:16:07 <ScaredyCat> zimbra is a better interface for n00bs like you CM 
Nov 05 18:16:08 <ScaredyCat> :P
Nov 05 18:16:09 <gi-el> doc|work: the fact that nobody has done it before makes it special ;)
Nov 05 18:16:26 <enjahova> yeah, just because its obvious in retrospect...
Nov 05 18:16:29 <CM> ScaredyCat: Hehe.. Who just bought them?
Nov 05 18:16:32 <kdean06> THough... Even if people don't use the Google stuff, people are aware of it. So even if Android tanks, it might still raise awareness of the need for open mobile devices and that's a good thing. :)
Nov 05 18:16:42 <xzcvczx> ITS ALIVE
Nov 05 18:16:51 <CM> xzcvczx: What was the problem?
Nov 05 18:16:52 <doc|work> gi-el: well, with this gphone stuff it's now at scary levels of knowledge. I *want* them to be separate. They'll know where you are, what you buy, what you search for, who you talk to, what you say... etc etc
Nov 05 18:16:58 <ScaredyCat> I have a dowloaded copy just for you CM
Nov 05 18:17:01 <abraxa_> CM: Meanie. I was gonna ask, too :(
Nov 05 18:17:09 <guaqua> ScaredyCat: isn't zimbra commercial?
Nov 05 18:17:13 <gi-el> doc|work: i don't say it's good, but it's something special :P
Nov 05 18:17:13 <ScaredyCat> no
Nov 05 18:17:14 <xzcvczx> CM: cable wasnt in properly.... even though i reseated it like 10 times
Nov 05 18:17:19 <doc|work> zimbra = foss afaik
Nov 05 18:17:20 <ScaredyCat> foos + commercial
Nov 05 18:17:22 <CM> abraxa_: You're a bit slow.. :P
Nov 05 18:17:29 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: cb23: thanks
Nov 05 18:17:32 <doc|work> gi-el: meh :)
Nov 05 18:17:43 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: Nothing to thank for and I'm glad it works again :)
Nov 05 18:17:43 <CM> Zimbra is owned by Yahoo
Nov 05 18:17:50 <doc|work> so, when do we get gta02s? 
Nov 05 18:17:52 * doc|work runs!
Nov 05 18:18:01 <xzcvczx> and anyone else who attempted to help
Nov 05 18:18:02 <guaqua> ooh, yahoo acquires zimbra
Nov 05 18:18:06 <gi-el> doc|work: come on, making a "big brother" infrastructure while convincing people you're nice and friendly is some feat :)
Nov 05 18:18:07 <ScaredyCat> Yahoo brought zimbra after buying the product
Nov 05 18:18:19 <doc|work> gi-el: *that* one I'll give you ;)
Nov 05 18:18:25 <doc|work> :(
Nov 05 18:18:40 <xzcvczx> unfourtunately touchscreen still seems to be playing up.. but halfway there at least
Nov 05 18:19:40 <ScaredyCat> I for one, welcome our new Google toting overlords....
Nov 05 18:20:45 * doc|work introduces a dog to the channel
Nov 05 18:20:52 <doc|work> sick 'im!
Nov 05 18:21:49 <ScaredyCat> can someone tell me wtf 'OpenSocial' is and why people who think up names for these things are illiterate?
Nov 05 18:22:13 <gi-el> ScaredyCat: sounds like a 60s hippies fuckfest
Nov 05 18:22:23 <CM> ScaredyCat: Reading rejon's blogpost?
Nov 05 18:22:42 <doc|work> so far, no one's really sure, it explains what you need to do to expose your stuff, but not how to connect to it seemingly
Nov 05 18:22:56 <CM> ScaredyCat: I was: http://rejon.org/2007/11/05/open-mobile-space-growing/
Nov 05 18:23:00 <doc|work> and on these social networking sites, it's all about exposing your stuff
Nov 05 18:23:27 <CM> doc|work: Exposing your stuff sounds line pr0n to me.. ;)
Nov 05 18:23:36 <CM> s/line/like/
Nov 05 18:23:37 <apt> CM meant: doc|work: Exposing your stuff sounds like pr0n to me.. ;)
Nov 05 18:24:02 <doc|work> CM: exactly :)
Nov 05 18:25:25 * ScaredyCat dangles over keyboard
Nov 05 18:26:55 <ScaredyCat> roflmao
Nov 05 18:26:58 <ScaredyCat> "The biggest news is that dialing "Just Works(TM)" now, turn on the phone, open the dialer and you can make calls. My neo stops after that because my calling credit ran out a while ago"
Nov 05 18:27:03 <ScaredyCat> knob head
Nov 05 18:27:07 <doc|work> hahahhaa
Nov 05 18:27:19 <ScaredyCat> how the hell can you tell if it's working if you have no call credit
Nov 05 18:27:37 <doc|work> because it tells you that you have no credit
Nov 05 18:27:48 * olle_ wants a motorola a780 maybe. it seems to have got good reviews. 
Nov 05 18:27:54 <doc|work> "your account has zero dollars and 4 cents"
Nov 05 18:28:02 <olle_> 200$
Nov 05 18:28:07 <olle_> hehe
Nov 05 18:28:22 <ScaredyCat> not in .nl it doesn;t doc|work
Nov 05 18:28:45 <doc|work> ScaredyCat: it just doesn't do anything?
Nov 05 18:28:47 <doc|work> weird
Nov 05 18:29:16 <ScaredyCat> no, and in the uk  - certainly with virgin, it just hangs up
Nov 05 18:29:33 <ScaredyCat> or gives 'fast busy'
Nov 05 18:29:39 <doc|work> that's a bit crap
Nov 05 18:29:56 <ScaredyCat> yes...
Nov 05 18:30:01 <ScaredyCat> but that's payg for you
Nov 05 18:30:40 * olle_ is now going to update his BIOS. scary...
Nov 05 18:30:43 <ScaredyCat> it's not as if you can't top up pretty much anywhere nowadys thoug
Nov 05 18:30:59 <ScaredyCat> you have a BIOS olle_! ?
Nov 05 18:31:16 <olle_> lol
Nov 05 18:32:14 <xzcvczx> bleh its stuffed
Nov 05 18:32:23 <ScaredyCat> like a turkey
Nov 05 18:33:04 <xzcvczx> except not as nice to eat
Nov 05 18:33:29 <xzcvczx> hmmm last month of spring and its rained for the past 2 days :S
Nov 05 18:37:17 <ScaredyCat> spring?
Nov 05 18:37:31 <ScaredyCat> ahhh .nz
Nov 05 18:37:35 <xzcvczx> :)
Nov 05 18:37:40 <xzcvczx> the smart country
Nov 05 18:38:20 <ScaredyCat> yeah, so many sheep so much time
Nov 05 18:39:21 <enjahova> lol, should spend less time on sheep and more on OM
Nov 05 18:40:14 <xzcvczx> enjahova: OM doesnt have the same payout as sheep :P
Nov 05 18:40:35 <xzcvczx> you dont feel relieved after 3 hrs working on the moko
Nov 05 18:40:50 <ScaredyCat> s/hrs/minutes/
Nov 05 18:41:18 <xzcvczx> ScaredyCat: no it was just a fake one with you
Nov 05 18:41:33 <xzcvczx> :)
Nov 05 18:41:35 <enjahova> lol
Nov 05 18:43:27 <xzcvczx> hmmm 7pm for roh.... why isnt he on here !!!
Nov 05 18:43:29 <xzcvczx> :P
Nov 05 18:43:46 * ScaredyCat looks out into the fields...
Nov 05 18:43:51 <xzcvczx> lol
Nov 05 18:44:09 <ScaredyCat> ok, lets see what's new in qtopia..
Nov 05 18:45:12 <doc|work> is qtopia > openmoko?
Nov 05 18:45:37 <flexd> are such things allowed to say in #openmoko? ;)
Nov 05 18:45:40 <doc|work> hehe
Nov 05 18:45:55 <doc|work> I'd hope so, otherwise what's the point of opensource :)
Nov 05 18:45:57 <anrp> depends on what you want
Nov 05 18:46:06 <anrp> if you want a working phone right now, yes, qt is better
Nov 05 18:46:21 <xzcvczx> doc|work: personally i prefer the look of om but the functionality of qtopia at present
Nov 05 18:46:31 <doc|work> fair enough
Nov 05 18:46:44 <doc|work> so, what difference is rasterman supposed to make?
Nov 05 18:47:04 <orospakr> hm, is there a reasonably recent image I can flash?
Nov 05 18:47:18 <ScaredyCat> orospakr: I have images from today
Nov 05 18:47:24 <orospakr> wait, what about rasterman?
Nov 05 18:47:26 <ScaredyCat> for om and qtopia
Nov 05 18:47:33 <orospakr> ScaredyCat: OM, please. :)
Nov 05 18:47:36 <orospakr> does PM work yet?
Nov 05 18:47:57 <ScaredyCat> is the sky yellow?
Nov 05 18:48:03 <doc|work> yes!
Nov 05 18:48:03 <orospakr> dang.
Nov 05 18:48:15 * xzcvczx is amazed the android didnt make it into the morning paper
Nov 05 18:48:22 <orospakr> you'd think they'd have it working by now...
Nov 05 18:48:38 <doc|work> orospakr: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011355.html
Nov 05 18:48:53 <orospakr> holy crap!
Nov 05 18:49:03 <doc|work> hehe
Nov 05 18:49:14 <orospakr> oh man, if anyone can bling out the GUI and make it fast, it's him.
Nov 05 18:49:19 <doc|work> indeed
Nov 05 18:49:26 <doc|work> maybe :)
Nov 05 18:49:38 <orospakr> I had dinner with him once!
Nov 05 18:49:48 <doc|work> did he pay?
Nov 05 18:50:18 <flexd> did he kiss you goodbye?
Nov 05 18:50:29 <flexd> :p
Nov 05 18:50:41 * doc|work giggles
Nov 05 18:50:44 <doc|work> *ahem*
Nov 05 18:51:44 <orospakr> ...
Nov 05 18:51:47 <orospakr> that was terrible.
Nov 05 18:52:09 <doc|work> admit it, you chuckled
Nov 05 18:52:51 <Fatal> so no goodbye kiss then? :/
Nov 05 18:53:12 <ScaredyCat> not enought wine flowed
Nov 05 18:53:17 <ScaredyCat> enough
Nov 05 18:54:25 <xzcvczx> they went straight to the long island iced teas and had to be carried out by the bouncers
Nov 05 18:55:26 <xzcvczx> oh crap space left to do an upgrade :S
Nov 05 18:55:37 <xzcvczx> no*
Nov 05 19:01:24 <abraxa_> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011370.html - I like this mail. A lot. Cause I know he can do it :)
Nov 05 19:03:57 <CM> abraxa_: Nice :)
Nov 05 19:04:14 <doc|work> yeah, but why work on another interface when there's so much other stuff that could be done right now?
Nov 05 19:04:24 <CM> He's hainging around in here fairly often too :)
Nov 05 19:06:01 <abraxa_> doc|work: Simply because working on a new UI will be a greater benefit in the long run - GTK just is not the UI toolkit to compete with Apple & Co
Nov 05 19:06:22 <doc|work> abraxa_: agreed, but it's much further on right now
Nov 05 19:06:53 <abraxa_> Yeah, there's a compromise to be made somewhere
Nov 05 19:06:53 <doc|work> also, how will that transition work, might annoy developers who have to develop against a new toolkit.
Nov 05 19:07:08 <doc|work> or is that for a much later device?
Nov 05 19:07:21 <abraxa_> GTK works under E17, too
Nov 05 19:07:25 <cb23> xzcvczx, nice!
Nov 05 19:07:27 <cb23> glad to see
Nov 05 19:07:36 <doc|work> abraxa_: transparently, theming and all?
Nov 05 19:08:07 <abraxa_> doc|work: Of course you'd need a theme that matches the new UI's theme but that seems rather trivial
Nov 05 19:08:15 <doc|work> I know you can get e17-like gtk themes
Nov 05 19:08:21 <doc|work> fair enough
Nov 05 19:14:52 <Bardack> Hi 
Nov 05 19:15:07 <abraxa_> Ahoy
Nov 05 19:15:39 <Bardack> Some months ago, I had already a look on this amazing project
Nov 05 19:15:55 <Bardack> and today I was thinking about it, and I see that it grow 
Nov 05 19:16:10 <Bardack> s* up
Nov 05 19:16:33 <abraxa_> Sure does :)
Nov 05 19:16:39 <Bardack> I saw that the user version will be launched on the 10/10/07. But I don't see this version at this time.
Nov 05 19:16:56 <doc|work> 45/topic
Nov 05 19:16:58 <doc|work> erk
Nov 05 19:16:59 <abraxa_> Yeah, hardware is taking longer than expected
Nov 05 19:17:05 <Bardack> To be honnest, I use linux for 4 years, and I am a LOTTTTTT interessted to take a developer version
Nov 05 19:17:24 <Bardack> it will be a difference (hardware) between developer/user version?
Nov 05 19:17:55 <Bardack> sorry for my bad english :) I try to do my best :)
Nov 05 19:18:05 <Bardack> but I am too excited by the avancment of this project :)
Nov 05 19:18:05 <doc|work> Bardack: see topic :)
Nov 05 19:18:15 <abraxa_> Yeah - the latter will have more RAM, more flash memory, a faster CPU, WiFi, a GPU and accelerometers
Nov 05 19:18:26 <Bardack> yeah like I was thinking
Nov 05 19:18:40 <Bardack> but later version = user version ?
Nov 05 19:18:45 <Bardack> or a new future version?
Nov 05 19:18:53 <abraxa_> Mass market version, yes
Nov 05 19:19:03 <Bardack> okay
Nov 05 19:19:33 <Bardack> and this version will be launched this year, then maybe it is not a good idea to take the developper version
Nov 05 19:19:37 <Bardack> I don t really know
Nov 05 19:19:48 <abraxa_> I would wait
Nov 05 19:19:57 <Bardack> Yeah I think so
Nov 05 19:20:05 <Bardack> but on the site, I don't see : 
Nov 05 19:20:12 <Bardack> 1) price of the mass market version
Nov 05 19:20:22 <Bardack> 2) a new date for the mass market version launching
Nov 05 19:20:29 <doc|work> Bardack: again, see topic :)
Nov 05 19:20:39 <Bardack> yeah I had already a look
Nov 05 19:20:41 <Bardack> I go verify 
Nov 05 19:24:10 <xzcvczx> Bardack: price = 450/600 for mass market
Nov 05 19:24:15 <xzcvczx> date: TBA
Nov 05 19:24:27 <Bardack> 450/600 ? base / advanced?
Nov 05 19:24:36 <xzcvczx> uhuh
Nov 05 19:24:39 <Bardack> mmm okay
Nov 05 19:24:46 <Bardack> TBA? Don't understand
Nov 05 19:24:52 <drath> to be announced
Nov 05 19:25:08 <Bardack> mmm it is a lot ...
Nov 05 19:26:08 <kdean06> So, for those who currently have a Neo unit, how functional is it?
Nov 05 19:26:16 <xzcvczx> 30%
Nov 05 19:26:25 <abraxa_> lol xz
Nov 05 19:26:28 <cjb> Hi!  Can someone recommend a recent jffs2 image to update to?
Nov 05 19:26:46 <abraxa_> cjb: I'd use mwester's or ScaredyCat's
Nov 05 19:26:49 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: well no texting, no hang up button must i continue :P
Nov 05 19:27:15 <doc|work> mmm, china mobile: "A state-owned enterprise of the People's Republic of China government, it was spun off from former monopoly China Telecom in 2000, and now has a 65% share of the competitive mainland Chinese mobile market. "
Nov 05 19:27:18 <xzcvczx> cjb: latest on buildhost,automated,it
Nov 05 19:27:25 <xzcvczx> -, +.
Nov 05 19:27:27 <doc|work> can we now put to rest the google aren't evil rubbish?
Nov 05 19:27:32 <abraxa_> xzcvczx: Actually I was more refering to the percentage as the meaning of "how functional is it?" varies for everyone :)
Nov 05 19:27:40 <Bardack> lol
Nov 05 19:28:14 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: just thought i will pull a number out of somewhere because its rather an open question.... not saying at all in what way he means
Nov 05 19:28:23 <Bardack> mmm
Nov 05 19:28:25 <Bardack> I m hesitate
Nov 05 19:28:32 <cjb> xzcvczx: thanks!
Nov 05 19:28:38 <xzcvczx> abraxa_: i could have said 0% because it didnt work in my missile as a gps unit being controlled through gsm
Nov 05 19:28:41 <Bardack> the developer version is cool, but the mass market version will be better
Nov 05 19:28:50 <Bardack> but more expansive ^^
Nov 05 19:29:01 <xzcvczx> Bardack: its got a lot more hardware in it
Nov 05 19:29:03 <flexd> Bardack: that's because you can develop *AND* like.. call people and such, do phone stuff
Nov 05 19:29:06 <flexd> it's like win/win
Nov 05 19:29:17 <cjb> xzcvczx: huh, there are many flavors of build there.  I guess I want something in OM2007.2, but which build?  (stock openmoko is fine)
Nov 05 19:29:29 * xzcvczx attempts to check his texts in the gui on the moko :P
Nov 05 19:29:34 <Bardack> yeah I understand
Nov 05 19:29:40 <kdean06> abraxa_, And it was funny. :) Though, I was thinking more in terms of basic phone functions such as making a call (and hanging up) and viewing/sending SMS.
Nov 05 19:30:00 <xzcvczx> cjb: well depends if you think ScaredyCat's added crap is just a waste of space or not
Nov 05 19:30:11 <enjahova> doc|work why do you hate google so much? :)
Nov 05 19:30:20 <xzcvczx> i personally go for the stock one as i have enuff space issues as it is
Nov 05 19:30:30 <enjahova> doc|work, do you not want chinese people to have access to android?
Nov 05 19:30:33 <doc|work> enjahova: hate?
Nov 05 19:30:48 <doc|work> enjahova: I'm pointing out the lies, that's not hate.
Nov 05 19:30:53 <xzcvczx> kdean06: no gui sms, can make a call but not hang up locally
Nov 05 19:31:00 <xzcvczx> unless you do it by command line
Nov 05 19:31:23 <doc|work> enjahova: I'd like the chinese people to have access to everything we do, and if they can get more, all the better, shame google and the chinese government work together to prevent that.
Nov 05 19:31:29 <enjahova> doc|work, what lie? china only has 1 or 2 fewer carriers than we do
Nov 05 19:31:43 <doc|work> the lie about them not being evil
Nov 05 19:31:43 <enjahova> china mobile and china unicom are the two major ones
Nov 05 19:31:44 <kdean06> xzcvczx, Thanks.
Nov 05 19:31:47 <xzcvczx> unfortunately we just have a good old duopoly here
Nov 05 19:31:52 <cjb> xzcvczx: cool, thanks, ok
Nov 05 19:31:56 <xzcvczx> 45c per min to call mobiles
Nov 05 19:32:02 <doc|work> enjahova: you missed the point :)
Nov 05 19:32:10 <enjahova> i guess so
Nov 05 19:32:24 <enjahova> i just don't get how working with china mobile is evil
Nov 05 19:33:23 <abraxa__> kdean06: Hanging up is a temporary issue as I understand it - SMS function on the other hand... yeah. Needs an app to be written.
Nov 05 19:33:27 <xzcvczx> if we didnt have china everything would be twice the price it is
Nov 05 19:34:06 <balrog-kun> what's evil for me is keeping a project secret for too long and reimplementing what others are doing (openmoko, qtopia)
Nov 05 19:34:07 <doc|work> xzcvczx: and the US and european economy wouldn't be so bad
Nov 05 19:34:24 <abraxa__> xzcvczx: ...and actually make people appreciate more what they have :)  (yay for US non-environmentalism)
Nov 05 19:34:25 <Bardack> mmm the advanced edition is for the big developers
Nov 05 19:34:28 <balrog-kun> at the same time claiming to be the first to have ever done it, and that you're collaborative
Nov 05 19:34:32 <Bardack> want to touch the loader ...
Nov 05 19:35:06 <jmichel> Hi i'm new in this IRC channel, I flashed my Neo last week with images from Oct 25th and today I made an ipkg upgrade and now the desktop doesn't show up
Nov 05 19:35:14 <jmichel> It says an error with the GSM antenna that cannot be powered on
Nov 05 19:35:19 <jmichel> Am I the only ones that has this problem?
Nov 05 19:35:48 <abraxa__> jmichel: Why not just flash a recent image?
Nov 05 19:35:56 <xzcvczx> jmichel: did you -forceoverwrite with the upgrade
Nov 05 19:35:57 <balrog-kun> jmichel: there should be an "Ok" button under than GSM antenna message
Nov 05 19:36:03 <mjr> I get that too. If I initialize the gsm modem through libgsmd-tool and register onto the network, after that it works for me...
Nov 05 19:36:03 <jmichel> I thought the ipkg upgrade would do the same
Nov 05 19:36:58 <Bardack> Mmm I don t really understand the need to have a "advanced" version. It is for the hardware or for hacking the u-boot I see. But the u-boot is not very clear for me.
Nov 05 19:36:58 <jmichel> i didn't do -forceoverwrite
Nov 05 19:37:21 <Bardack> I m thinking at: if I take a base version, will I have some restrictions?
Nov 05 19:37:31 <abraxa__> Bardack: If you don't know what u-boot is then you don't need to tinker with it :)
Nov 05 19:37:34 <xzcvczx> jmichel: then if you havent customised the phone you will probably just find it easier to reflash
Nov 05 19:37:35 <jmichel> after i click ok it stays on "plaese wait" screen
Nov 05 19:37:43 <Bardack> hehe oki
Nov 05 19:37:43 <abraxa__> Bardack: And no restrictions, no
Nov 05 19:39:13 <summatusmentis> I hate to be a pessimist... does Google's Android nullify the premise behind openmoko?
Nov 05 19:39:20 <xzcvczx> summatusmentis: no
Nov 05 19:39:34 <Bardack> yeah , then I wait for the base version for mass market version
Nov 05 19:39:45 <Bardack> I hope that the transport to Belgium will be correct :)
Nov 05 19:39:53 <summatusmentis> xzcvczx: you think coexistance is feasible?
Nov 05 19:40:23 <xzcvczx> summatusmentis: android will never be the same as om..... om will get all the ubergeeks before android does
Nov 05 19:40:27 <jmichel> abarxa__: is there any advantages of doing a new flash or ipkg upgrade brings the software to the same version than the new image?
Nov 05 19:40:51 <kdean06> summatusmentis, No. They both have different goals, but there's also some overlap...
Nov 05 19:41:04 <abraxa__> jmichel: Thing is that so many things are in flux as of now that flashing a recent image makes sure everything is consistent
Nov 05 19:41:24 <balrog-kun> summatusmentis: it's yet to see who nullifies who :p
Nov 05 19:41:33 <abraxa__> Bardack: You ordered one?
Nov 05 19:41:44 <zash> gah, chatt slower so i can read
Nov 05 19:41:48 <xzcvczx> summatusmentis: they effectively have differnent goals in terms of om/fic either want a wad of cash at the start and nothing more (or nothing if you put om on another device) whereas google will keep getting money off you for the life of your android phone
Nov 05 19:42:12 <doc|work> xzcvczx: is that google's business model?
Nov 05 19:42:25 <doc|work> I mean, we don't even know what it is really
Nov 05 19:42:29 <summatusmentis> google has yet to announce how they plan to make money off of android
Nov 05 19:42:30 <xzcvczx> doc|work: well google earth they do... its all one year subs, 
Nov 05 19:42:38 <balrog-kun> xzcvczx: how would google get the money from you using their free software?
Nov 05 19:42:53 <xzcvczx> balrog-kun: indirectly through advertising
Nov 05 19:43:38 <Bardack> at the moment no abraxa_
Nov 05 19:43:41 <balrog-kun> well, that's ok with me, if i'm running free software and can modify it if i want
Nov 05 19:43:45 <xzcvczx> doc|work: all their business services are all 1 year as well
Nov 05 19:43:46 <torpor> yo
Nov 05 19:43:51 <torpor> howdy folks
Nov 05 19:43:54 <Bardack> I re-discover the project today (after a lot of months)
Nov 05 19:44:02 <Bardack> and I am happy to see that it grows up
Nov 05 19:44:13 <xzcvczx> balrog-kun: haha its not going to be that open otherwise its effectively useless
Nov 05 19:44:20 <Bardack> and at the moment, I just decide to wait for the mass market version base
Nov 05 19:44:21 <abraxa__> Bardack: That's perfectly fine, was just curious since you were talking about shipping :)
Nov 05 19:44:25 <xzcvczx> balrog-kun: if you read carefully it says it can be locked down
Nov 05 19:44:45 <Bardack> but I search after the price for transport to belgium
Nov 05 19:45:01 <summatusmentis> is there any way to look at progress being made by OM?
Nov 05 19:45:09 <torpor> summatusmentis: scap.linuxtogo.org
Nov 05 19:45:11 <xzcvczx> the wiki
Nov 05 19:45:16 <puckett> Android is going to be more of a threat to Symbian and Microsoft/WinMo than to OM.
Nov 05 19:45:18 <torpor> planet.openmoko.com
Nov 05 19:45:19 <doc|work> Bardack: you can check the price on the site. Should be the same as the current phone.
Nov 05 19:45:28 <torpor> also, using feedreader on the neo1973 itself is a nice surprise .. 
Nov 05 19:45:41 <Bardack> mmm I really don't want to start a troll but ... When I read the spcifications of the future Neo ... the iPhone will be totally distroy ^^
Nov 05 19:45:59 <Bardack> </troll>
Nov 05 19:46:17 <xzcvczx> you mean the neo will destroy the iphone or iphone destroy neo
Nov 05 19:46:24 <xzcvczx> ?
Nov 05 19:46:36 <Bardack> neo better than iPhone
Nov 05 19:46:41 <xzcvczx> ah ok
Nov 05 19:46:48 <Bardack> but I don't want to start a troll :)
Nov 05 19:47:32 <Bardack> about gps, some of you have already some informations?
Nov 05 19:47:36 <torpor> its not there yet so why bother discussing it?
Nov 05 19:47:53 * balrog-kun has been just looking up the specs of the GPS indicated in the topic today
Nov 05 19:47:54 <torpor> i look forward to all future new hardware that is cheap and affordable and can be made to do nice things.
Nov 05 19:48:05 <xzcvczx> Bardack: what are you wanting to knoww.... the 02 has a different gps chip
Nov 05 19:48:08 <|R> balrog-kun : and? compared to sirfIII or MTK?
Nov 05 19:48:14 <balrog-kun> I like it much more than the Hammerhead
Nov 05 19:48:34 <xzcvczx> balrog-kun: the hammerhead would be nice if an opensource driver got written for it.....
Nov 05 19:48:40 <balrog-kun> |R: i have no idea about the GPS part, but the protocls it supports for talking to the software look much more reasonable
Nov 05 19:48:56 <xzcvczx> balrog-kun: if you knew stuff like you exact height technically you could calculate your position better
Nov 05 19:49:25 <xzcvczx> and the hammerhead is rather good at picking up lites as well
Nov 05 19:49:27 <|R> balrog-kun : oh, good then :)
Nov 05 19:49:31 <balrog-kun> according to the datasheet (as every datasheet on earth) it's the best, most robust, most usable, most power efficient etc etc chip, but the protocols part looks reasonable
Nov 05 19:50:08 <Bardack> 55$ USD , transport to belgium
Nov 05 19:50:11 <Bardack> good
Nov 05 19:50:16 <balrog-kun> it's got some SmartSomething deature for indoor work
Nov 05 19:50:23 <balrog-kun> *feature
Nov 05 19:51:00 * xzcvczx needs to get a nice long gps antennae
Nov 05 19:51:11 <|R> yeah, and WAAS/EGNOS support it seems :)
Nov 05 19:54:00 <balrog-kun> it does the standard NMEA protocol and can be switched to a proprietary protocol defined by the manufacturer but I could find the docs for this one on google also, and gpsd (code on sf.net) has partial support for this second protocol too
Nov 05 20:10:22 <duffyd> hi, just downloaded the snapshots from buildhost.automated.it for 2/november but the xserver doesn't seem to load. Anyone know if the 5 nov are any better?
Nov 05 20:11:20 <cjb> (hm, do I want openmoko-devel-image-fic, or openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk?)
Nov 05 20:17:14 <duffyd> btw where is the page that describes bugs in the snapshots (plz)?
Nov 05 20:19:41 <dread> duffyd: do you search for http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Phase_1_Software_Testing ?
Nov 05 20:20:00 <xzcvczx> lol @ planet about google os
Nov 05 20:20:20 <duffyd> xzcvczx: :D
Nov 05 20:20:28 <xzcvczx> they should just call it gossip and just need sip functionality in the os
Nov 05 20:20:54 * xzcvczx trademarks gossip just in case
Nov 05 20:21:40 <duffyd> dread: thanks
Nov 05 20:36:51 <cjb> duffyd: yes, rootfs from the 5th boots X
Nov 05 20:37:22 <duffyd> cjb: great, thanks
Nov 05 20:42:04 <Bardack> good night all
Nov 05 20:49:38 <cjb> .. although it's not registering with the cell network for me.  wonder why.
Nov 05 20:51:33 <ScaredyCat> anyone know how to change that butt ugly clock ?
Nov 05 20:52:11 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: You mean the digital one?
Nov 05 20:52:16 <ScaredyCat> yes
Nov 05 20:52:29 <abraxa_> dbus-launch gconftool-2 -t bool -s /desktop/poky/interface/digital_clock false
Nov 05 20:52:37 <ScaredyCat> ta
Nov 05 20:52:42 <abraxa_> No prob
Nov 05 20:53:23 <ScaredyCat> does it require a restart ..
Nov 05 20:53:30 <ScaredyCat> of today
Nov 05 20:54:07 <abraxa_> Yeah, unfortuantely
Nov 05 20:54:45 <ScaredyCat> :/
Nov 05 20:55:03 <ScaredyCat> that's a bit Windows
Nov 05 20:55:58 <abraxa_> Blame d-bus and its inability to propagate key changes over sessions
Nov 05 20:56:03 <xzcvczx> ScaredyCat: nah it would require a complete phone reboot if it was win
Nov 05 20:56:44 <ScaredyCat> abraxa_: surely it's the application that's at fault, not dbus..
Nov 05 20:57:05 <abraxa_> Actually, it is d-bus
Nov 05 20:57:13 <abraxa_> I have the same prob with the media player
Nov 05 20:57:45 <ScaredyCat> then why use dbus.. hell just touch a file and have the app test for it - crappy, but it'd work better
Nov 05 20:58:31 <ScaredyCat> mind you, just using my brain I switched on the analog clock 
Nov 05 20:58:33 <abraxa_> It works within the same d-bus session so it works just fine on the device itself - just not over ssh
Nov 05 20:59:27 <ScaredyCat> using right, ok... so the app needs to have the 'turn clock on/off" menus
Nov 05 20:59:44 <abraxa_> Or some other preferences app, yep
Nov 05 20:59:52 <ScaredyCat> ok...
Nov 05 21:00:10 <ScaredyCat> apps menu is broken
Nov 05 21:00:15 <ScaredyCat> :(
Nov 05 21:00:20 <abraxa_> In what way?
Nov 05 21:00:24 * ScaredyCat starts poking about
Nov 05 21:00:44 <ScaredyCat> there seems to be media, games, settings, other
Nov 05 21:00:52 <ScaredyCat> only media and games have anythign in 
Nov 05 21:01:07 <ScaredyCat> you only see the other apps if you click the search icon
Nov 05 21:02:06 <ScaredyCat> so what are the other config options via dbus then... did I miss some documentation ?
Nov 05 21:02:42 <abraxa_> Nope, you didn't
Nov 05 21:02:55 <pH5> ScaredyCat: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=985 ?
Nov 05 21:03:34 <ScaredyCat> yup pH5
Nov 05 21:03:43 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: "dbus-launch gconftool-2 -R /" shows you everything GConf has to offer
Nov 05 21:04:07 <ScaredyCat> ta
Nov 05 21:05:01 <ScaredyCat> whooaoaa lots!
Nov 05 21:12:50 <duffyd> any further ideas why cjb's download of the latest ScaredyCat images doesn't register with cell network?
Nov 05 21:12:59 <duffyd> is this a common issue?
Nov 05 21:13:05 <ScaredyCat> errm... no...
Nov 05 21:13:14 <ScaredyCat> I just installed it and it registered here
Nov 05 21:13:56 <ScaredyCat> you sure it's 'not' registering, and it's not just the icon?
Nov 05 21:15:09 <ScaredyCat> I still have the '?' icon but can make calls
Nov 05 21:15:54 <mjr> repeat: "I get that too. If I initialize the gsm modem through libgsmd-tool and register onto the network, after that it works for me..."
Nov 05 21:16:38 <ScaredyCat> I didn't have to do any of that
Nov 05 21:17:40 <duffyd> mmm, ok
Nov 05 21:18:46 <ScaredyCat> duffyd: have you tried to make a call ?
Nov 05 21:19:40 <CM> Bah, cleaning the apartment sucks.. I want to play with my Neo too.. :P
Nov 05 21:19:53 <ScaredyCat> that's what a wife is for.
Nov 05 21:19:59 <ScaredyCat> well one of the things
Nov 05 21:20:03 * ScaredyCat ducks
Nov 05 21:20:10 <CM> ScaredyCat: Why do you think I'm selling this one and moving to Stockholm? ;)
Nov 05 21:20:15 <ScaredyCat> lol
Nov 05 21:20:15 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: lol. Anyways, I've tried nothing yet - just confirming before I download the images :)
Nov 05 21:20:26 <CM> ScaredyCat: No need to duck, I doubt your wife is in here.. ;)
Nov 05 21:20:28 * ScaredyCat slaps duffyd
Nov 05 21:20:43 <ScaredyCat> CM: but she is real, honest.
Nov 05 21:20:54 <CM> Hehe.. Sure, so they say..
Nov 05 21:20:57 <CM> ;-)
Nov 05 21:21:05 <mjr> jpegs are people too!
Nov 05 21:21:09 <duffyd> ScaredyCat: :)
Nov 05 21:21:10 <duffyd> lol
Nov 05 21:21:14 <ScaredyCat> hehe, yeah, that picture on my desk, I found it on the internet
Nov 05 21:21:21 <CM> Hehe
Nov 05 21:21:30 * duffyd is starting to get worried about this conversation
Nov 05 21:29:44 <Stephmw> evenin' chaps
Nov 05 21:32:19 <jadams> hey hey
Nov 05 21:33:12 <jadams> so I just loaded scaredycat-openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01.jffs2 onto my rootfs, and oddity ensued...like I had the media player, but no applications list (media, software, games, settings were all there)
Nov 05 21:33:19 <jadams> that may be the regression I saw mentioned?
Nov 05 21:33:44 <ScaredyCat> wel[2007-11-05 21:01:30] <pH5> ScaredyCat: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=985 ?
Nov 05 21:33:56 <ScaredyCat> for you jadams
Nov 05 21:34:30 <jadams> ScaredyCat, rule
Nov 05 21:35:35 <jadams> I've been running the qtopia image for a little bit, this is my dip back into openmoko
Nov 05 21:35:46 <jadams> still haven't gotten to a point where I'm comfy using it as my phone though
Nov 05 21:37:26 * rwhitby yawns
Nov 05 21:37:28 <rwhitby> morning all
Nov 05 21:37:47 <rwhitby> I expected to see an empty channel, with everyone moved to #android ...
Nov 05 21:39:17 * fgau see 338 nicks more than over the weekend
Nov 05 21:39:17 <woglinde> hi ljp
Nov 05 21:40:21 <duffyd> rwhitby: lol
Nov 05 21:42:19 * ScaredyCat is not convinced
Nov 05 21:46:20 <Ghiottone> hola guys
Nov 05 21:48:06 * Stephmw joins #android for the laugh
Nov 05 21:49:11 * SpeedEvil hands Stephmw a poking stick.
Nov 05 21:50:08 <ScaredyCat> :)
Nov 05 21:50:20 <Ghiottone> ehehe
Nov 05 21:50:35 <Ghiottone> rwhitby, do you have commit permissions to OE?
Nov 05 21:51:13 * abraxa_ mumbles something about rwhitby being a high profile person
Nov 05 21:51:13 <zecke|ma1h> Ghiottone: everyone can commit, but rwhitby can even push to the servers
Nov 05 21:51:28 <Ghiottone> oh
Nov 05 21:51:45 <abraxa_> zecke|ma1h: "push to the servers"?
Nov 05 21:51:52 <Ghiottone> I have opened a bug to have ipkgorphan in.
Nov 05 21:53:10 <Ghiottone> mickey|lunch said he was going to commit it after a few changes in the recipe and source code.
Nov 05 21:53:44 <balrog-kun> probably in monotone terminology
Nov 05 21:53:56 <balrog-kun> mono-speak
Nov 05 21:54:01 <Ghiottone> I have done those changes (the bug is http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2954)
Nov 05 21:54:13 <Ghiottone> zecke|ma1h, how come everyone can commit?
Nov 05 21:54:29 <zecke|ma1h> Ghiottone: decentral system?
Nov 05 21:54:41 <Ghiottone> zecke|ma1h, does it mean I could do it by myself?
Nov 05 21:55:12 <XorA|gone> Ghiottone: you can commit, you cant push
Nov 05 21:55:23 <XorA|gone> Ghiottone: commit only affects your local db
Nov 05 21:55:58 <Ghiottone> ah in that sense. I see
Nov 05 21:56:10 <balrog-kun> in git you can also commit locally, but if someone asked me if i can commit i would know he means push right
Nov 05 22:03:09 <Ghiottone> woohooo I got navit build from cvs!
Nov 05 22:10:35 <dtx> So what do people think about the Open Handset Alliance?
Nov 05 22:10:48 <SpeedEvil> We've already sent in the ninjas. 
Nov 05 22:11:33 <abraxa_> And some pirates to support.
Nov 05 22:11:53 <dtx> Is OpenMoko gonna support their stack too?
Nov 05 22:13:10 <CM> I think it looks like openmoko will be the truly open phone os (with qtopia now) and Android more like a more open iPhone
Nov 05 22:13:16 <pH5> dtx: until nov 12 it's all just marketing fluff, so nothing to think about it until then.
Nov 05 22:14:44 <dtx> Eh
Nov 05 22:14:52 <dtx> I'm just glad to see openness spreading
Nov 05 22:14:55 <dtx> one way or the other
Nov 05 22:15:18 <CM> dtx: I'm hoping we can run gphone programs on openmoko too
Nov 05 22:15:19 <dtx> But I still look forward to getting my Neo
Nov 05 22:15:33 <dtx> Its supposedly 100% Apache licensed
Nov 05 22:15:34 <CM> I just wonder what kind of vm they will use
Nov 05 22:15:40 <CM> yes, v2 
Nov 05 22:17:40 * xzcvczx thinks someone needs to set the topic to "yeah we know about android.... its not going to kill om or fic and this is not #android"
Nov 05 22:18:07 <Mek> this situation has a lot of resemblance to when qtopia was just completely gpl-ed :)
Nov 05 22:19:40 * balrog-kun is happy he hasn't missed much then
Nov 05 22:20:56 <xzcvczx> Mek: when did that happen?
Nov 05 22:22:19 <Mek> some months ago... this channel and the lists where flooded with people telling us it was the end of openmoko...
Nov 05 22:25:26 <kristian-m> well we've got 6 months to assimilate them... :-)
Nov 05 23:07:31 <infernix> does anyone have a clue about how android could (will?) relate to openmoko, if at all?
Nov 05 23:07:49 <infernix> it strikes me as the same goal but as with all OS projects, will it blend[tm]?
Nov 05 23:08:30 <CM> infernix: No one knows much yet, but it's surely not as open as openmoko :)
Nov 05 23:08:35 <|R> hehe
Nov 05 23:08:44 <CM> Will be interesting to see what the SDK will be like next week..
Nov 05 23:09:04 <infernix> i would be disappointed if there would be no mutual benefit
Nov 05 23:09:27 <CM> infernix: I agree
Nov 05 23:09:29 <infernix> not that competition is bad, though
Nov 05 23:09:49 <ozarka> OM is "open" and Android is "truly open" according to the websites.
Nov 05 23:09:51 * CM guesses that Android will run some kind of vm
Nov 05 23:10:02 <ozarka> So I guess Android wins on adverbs.
Nov 05 23:10:11 <CM> Just hope that vm can run on openmoko too :)
Nov 05 23:10:13 <infernix> vm?
Nov 05 23:10:15 <|R> what's the main diff between apache v2 and BSD?
Nov 05 23:10:22 <CM> infernix: Virtual Machine
Nov 05 23:10:23 * |R lost in the license spaghetti
Nov 05 23:10:31 <infernix> you don't think the OS will run natively on hardware?
Nov 05 23:10:37 <CM> infernix: Also, it's just my guess. I don't see Sun mentioned anywhere
Nov 05 23:10:58 <CM> infernix: The OS will be linux, but they want to make it easy to develop applications
Nov 05 23:10:59 <infernix> well there's already some htc phones that have been running linux
Nov 05 23:11:05 <infernix> mh
Nov 05 23:11:15 <ozarka> "Android is built on the open Linux Kernel. Furthermore, it utilizes a custom virtual machine that has been designed to optimize memory and hardware resources in a mobile environment."
Nov 05 23:11:32 <infernix> d'oh
Nov 05 23:11:34 <CM> ozarka: Ah, nice. Doesn't say what kind of vm?
Nov 05 23:11:37 * infernix cries bitter tears
Nov 05 23:11:47 <ozarka> CM: Kind of left that part out.
Nov 05 23:11:52 <CM> Hrmpf...
Nov 05 23:11:54 <ozarka> Rumor has it that it will be Java.
Nov 05 23:12:01 <CM> I thought so too
Nov 05 23:12:03 <ozarka> But I didn't see Sun on the list.
Nov 05 23:12:07 <CM> Exactly
Nov 05 23:12:09 * anrp looks for the elusive closed linux kernel
Nov 05 23:12:23 <ozarka> And the rumor comes from USA Today, so...
Nov 05 23:13:16 <CM> Well, google does a lot of stuff using java and linux, so..
Nov 05 23:14:07 <|R> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/apache2.xml <- for those interested in apache vs bsd vs ...
Nov 05 23:14:14 <ozarka> My prediction, the language will be C++, but in a virtual machine.
Nov 05 23:14:26 <ozarka> Best of both worlds.  :-)
Nov 05 23:14:33 <ozarka> But they'll call it g++
Nov 05 23:14:34 * CM cringes
Nov 05 23:14:47 <CM> I'd rather have javascript.. :P
Nov 05 23:15:10 <CM> What if it's Tamarin?
Nov 05 23:15:45 <kristian-m> cm i guess you're right - after reading what om had to say a while ago: http://gigaom.com/2007/09/03/google-phone-facts/
Nov 05 23:39:39 * rwhitby notes conversations with real Google developer advocates happening in #android ...
Nov 05 23:40:22 <mickeyl> rwhitby: be kind and post an executive summary on your blog ;)
Nov 05 23:40:28 <mickeyl> i need to work on OM
Nov 05 23:40:34 <mickeyl> can't allow myself to be distracted now
Nov 05 23:40:59 <rwhitby> mickeyl: they can't say anything till next week, so no need for you to go there yet.
Nov 05 23:41:05 <mickeyl> thanks
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Nov 05 23:50:56 2007

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 05 23:51:17 2007
Nov 05 23:52:03 <StylusEater> sweet...got my new image built from svn and flashed...
Nov 05 23:52:19 <StylusEater> I like the big clock
Nov 05 23:58:31 * xzcvczx has just placed an order worth $468 but costs nothing
Nov 06 00:17:41 <CM> xzcvczx: Nice, what is it?
Nov 06 00:18:08 * CM wishes each day had 28 hours
Nov 06 00:18:09 * ewon is now living in LA
Nov 06 00:18:26 <CM> ewon: Cool, how does it feel to be there?
Nov 06 00:19:25 <ewon> CM: warm :)
Nov 06 00:19:38 <CM> 7 degrees C, rain here.. 
Nov 06 00:19:58 <CM> Also 1:19 am, and I'm supposed to go to work in 5h
Nov 06 00:20:11 <CM> Good night :)
Nov 06 00:20:24 * CM takes a short nap :(
Nov 06 00:20:53 <ewon> bye now
Nov 06 00:21:18 <Ghiottone> nite CM
Nov 06 00:21:34 <kristian-m> night
Nov 06 01:14:44 <PirateHead> ANDROID
Nov 06 01:21:46 <ewon> PARANOID
Nov 06 01:22:09 <Mek> MARVIN
Nov 06 01:24:49 <PirateHead> no, Android. How do you guys react?
Nov 06 01:26:18 * SpeedEvil has a pain in the diodes all down his left hand side.
Nov 06 01:27:23 <linux_galore> Interesting new  WiFi chipset for mobile devices from Atheros  http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS5024332766.html
Nov 06 01:28:20 <linux_galore> ?? Android isnt that the new mobile Google platform
Nov 06 01:31:04 <linux_galore> ah, the brain cells are getting old, Android is a software company Google just purchased to assist with their mobile platform http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2005/tc20050817_0949_tc024.htm
Nov 06 01:31:55 <Writchie> they purchased it 2 years ago!
Nov 06 01:32:12 <Writchie> they relase their sdk preview on Monday
Nov 06 01:32:19 <PirateHead> Android is a complete mobile smartphone software stack, and it's Apache licensed.
Nov 06 01:32:45 <PirateHead> Can we use Apache code, or is this closed to us?
Nov 06 01:33:23 <linux_galore> PirateHead: dare say it depends on the license GPL3 is Apache license friendly 
Nov 06 01:33:53 <PirateHead> Android uses the Apache 2 license, so hopefully they will be compatible.
Nov 06 01:34:08 <linux_galore> PirateHead: let me put it this way, you can put apache on the OM
Nov 06 01:34:24 <PirateHead> You mean on the Neo?
Nov 06 01:34:29 <linux_galore> yes
Nov 06 01:35:31 * rwhitby points to #android and http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/android.txt
Nov 06 01:35:43 <linux_galore> PirateHead: best to think of the NEO as a mobile Linux PC
Nov 06 01:35:58 <PirateHead> No, best to think of it as a mobile phone.
Nov 06 01:36:00 <PirateHead> It is clearly not a PC.
Nov 06 01:36:16 <linux_galore> well not in the X86 sense yes
Nov 06 01:37:20 <linux_galore> You cant exectly call the NEO a mobile phone either because it isnt just a phone
Nov 06 01:37:36 <SpeedEvil> It's a cookbook!
Nov 06 01:40:59 <zilt> hmm... no 850Mhz for gta01 AND gta02 !
Nov 06 01:41:17 <linux_galore> Nokia calls their mobile a mobile media computer
Nov 06 01:41:19 <zilt> that kind of screws me a little bit
Nov 06 01:41:34 <netx> a mobile phone nowadays is nothing more than a PC with a very small display and a GSM or CDMA modem
Nov 06 01:42:01 <linux_galore> zilt: alway wait for the GTA03
Nov 06 01:42:14 <PirateHead> I'm on hold for the GTA05.l
Nov 06 01:42:19 <linux_galore> heh
Nov 06 01:42:24 <Writchie> zilt: where did you see that?
Nov 06 01:42:42 <zilt> linux_galore: sure - but mickey|zzZZzz has already said not to expect it before end of 2008 - maybe 2009
Nov 06 01:42:54 <linux_galore> problem is when you go over 400mhz you start hitting battery problem ie 2400MAH brock is needed
Nov 06 01:43:02 <zilt> Writchie: mailling list - Michael Shiloh update
Nov 06 01:43:55 <linux_galore> zilt: by 2009 it will be too late mobiles are adapting so fast now its not funny
Nov 06 01:44:44 <linux_galore> LG are releasing 6 models in the next 1/4 alone
Nov 06 01:45:05 <Writchie> advertising a quad-band that is in fact a tri-band is called fraud in the U.S. 
Nov 06 01:45:15 <zilt> linux_galore: yup.  I can't believe that gta02 won't have it either - that seems like a major bug to me
Nov 06 01:45:34 * zilt nods
Nov 06 01:45:43 <Writchie> much of the Amercas is 850 only
Nov 06 01:46:33 <zilt> Yup - I'm in a 850 only zone - alot of the towers around me are 850 only as well :(
Nov 06 01:46:43 <linux_galore> Writchie: lucky your not here in Australia we have a hybrid CDMA850/GSM nightmare
Nov 06 01:46:51 <Writchie> an Americas tri-band 850/1800/1900 would be acceptable
Nov 06 01:47:05 <Writchie> variant that is
Nov 06 01:47:50 <Writchie> if 850 is not supported the neo is next to useless in U.S. 
Nov 06 01:47:56 <linux_galore> Good example Samung have a A801 model thats GSM 1800/1900/CDMA 850 (850 is data)
Nov 06 01:48:30 <Writchie> t-mobile is 1900 but much of it's roaming is at 850
Nov 06 01:48:47 <zilt> From the mail list - official confirmation of no 850: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011394.html
Nov 06 01:48:48 <Writchie> you can't even make calls in some airports without 850
Nov 06 01:48:52 <linux_galore> dont worry WiMAX will kill all this UTMS rubbish
Nov 06 01:49:08 <linux_galore> UMTS*
Nov 06 01:49:11 <Writchie> WiMAX is still-born as a phone replacement
Nov 06 01:49:36 <linux_galore> Writchie: Wimax will be for data not voice I dare say
Nov 06 01:49:37 <Writchie> HSDPA will kick its ass
Nov 06 01:50:00 <Tronic> How about @450? I never got where that fits.
Nov 06 01:50:03 <SpeedEvil> No reason you can'd do VOIPOWIMAX
Nov 06 01:50:05 <linux_galore> Writchie: we have HSDPA here in Australia its not that good unless you use CDMA for the RF
Nov 06 01:50:39 <Writchie> of course, WCDMA
Nov 06 01:50:56 <linux_galore> SpeedEvil: we have a pre WiMAX network already working here in Australia, latency is too slow for voice
Nov 06 01:51:32 <linux_galore> its provided by a company called Unwired  www.unwired.com.au
Nov 06 01:52:10 <linux_galore> s/slow/high
Nov 06 01:52:44 <linux_galore> VoIP on WCDMA is also rubbish, Ive tried it
Nov 06 01:52:53 <u_l-lap> Writchie: next to useless!
Nov 06 01:52:57 <u_l-lap> Writchie: t-mo is still 1900 only
Nov 06 01:53:13 <linux_galore> data speeds are very good though
Nov 06 01:53:14 <Writchie> what good is a phone you can't roam with
Nov 06 01:53:15 <u_l-lap> I roam continously since I moved to NC and it is also 1900 only here
Nov 06 01:53:23 <u_l-lap> just don't go to the midwest it's not like there is anything there ;-)
Nov 06 01:54:01 <Writchie> u_l-lap: some parts of NC are 850 only IIRC
Nov 06 01:54:13 <u_l-lap> none in the populated parts
Nov 06 01:54:17 <u_l-lap> I biked from raleigh to greensboro and had service the entire way
Nov 06 01:54:27 <Writchie> recently my phone was emergency only and my sons quad-band worked fine
Nov 06 01:54:38 <linux_galore> just got a another new sample Nokia phone to play with, N95-8G, heavier then the last model but the all black look makes people drool
Nov 06 01:54:43 <u_l-lap> also along the entire train route, in all of chapel hill except for in a few valleys, and throughout the entire triangle
Nov 06 01:54:47 <u_l-lap> i.e. where everyone lives
Nov 06 01:55:58 <zilt> u_l-lap: great - lack of 850 doesn't affect you.  I live Canada's 4th largest city and alot of it is 850
Nov 06 01:56:28 <u_l-lap> lame
Nov 06 01:56:45 <u_l-lap> why did anyone rollout 850 anyway? 1900 has been there longer hasn't it?
Nov 06 01:56:48 <linux_galore> 850 is reserved for UMTS data here in Australia
Nov 06 01:56:50 <u_l-lap> "let's be nonstandard"
Nov 06 01:57:01 <Writchie> the tower spacing is designed for 850
Nov 06 01:57:27 <Writchie> you need 4 times as many towers for 1900 for equivalent coverage
Nov 06 01:57:41 <Writchie> even then 1900 has more trouble penetrating buildings
Nov 06 01:57:50 <zilt> u_l-lap: blame Rogers.. I dunno why .. (hmm.. it might be 5th largest - haven't checked lately :) )
Nov 06 01:58:14 <linux_galore> Bloody Europe and their silly GSM standards
Nov 06 02:00:31 <linux_galore> ITS I noticed have assigned WiMAX as a 3G product, i can imagine the sales person selling it, Sales Drone " Yes this phone suportsWiMAX"  Customer "So the phone is 4G ?"  Sales Drone "No it's 3G"  Customer "But my old phone is 3G"  Sales Drone ((( HEAD EXPLODES)))
Nov 06 02:01:09 <Writchie> No its 3.75G
Nov 06 02:01:19 <Writchie> minus 1.5
Nov 06 02:02:13 <linux_galore> In Japan they are just calling it 4G last i looked
Nov 06 02:03:01 <Writchie> 4G generally means unified IP transport network for all services IIRC
Nov 06 02:03:03 <linux_galore> Writchie: then you have the different speeds for WiMAX lol
Nov 06 02:04:00 <linux_galore> Writchie: well the japanese are talking voice (VoIP) and data over WiMAX
Nov 06 02:05:06 <linux_galore> so it will be a battle between WCDMA and WiMAX with GSM becoming more and more lame for data
Nov 06 02:06:19 <linux_galore> next few years should be fun and games as the Telco's spin the bottle on those technologies
Nov 06 02:06:32 <Writchie> the primary problems are how to smoothly migrate your customer base to the new services.
Nov 06 02:07:33 <linux_galore> anyway I have to mail some stuff out
Nov 06 02:07:38 <linux_galore> bbl
Nov 06 02:11:27 <zilt> so... is it fraud?  They've been advertising the gta01 as a quad band for 5 months or so, and only know they discover the phone they built is really a tri-band phone? 
Nov 06 02:11:52 <zilt> s/know/now/
Nov 06 02:11:52 <apt> zilt meant: so... is it fraud?  They've been advertising the gta01 as a quad band for 5 months or so, and only now they discover the phone they built is really a tri-band phone? 
Nov 06 02:12:58 <JohnMahowald> I doubt someone is profiting off the lack of 4 bands.
Nov 06 02:13:37 * ajmitch wasn't aware the phone was being marketed & advertised
Nov 06 02:13:52 <Writchie> well in the case of the U.S. you lost the ability to support 65% - 70% of current GSM subscribers
Nov 06 02:14:00 <SpeedEvil> It becomes fraud - or at least false advertising when they find out that it can't do 4 bands.
Nov 06 02:14:32 <SpeedEvil> ajmitch: It does give a list of hardware specs when you go to purchase it.
Nov 06 02:15:03 <ajmitch> SpeedEvil: well we know that the hardware does support it, the firmware doesn't
Nov 06 02:15:11 <ajmitch> but with no current option of upgrading firmware
Nov 06 02:15:11 <Writchie> Even in Chinese si is not san
Nov 06 02:15:23 <SpeedEvil> ajmitch: for a substantial fraction of users, 850Mhz is a requirement, and claiming that it does, when it doesn't is misrepresentation.
Nov 06 02:15:24 <Mek> ajmitch: according to the last messages on the list the hardware does not support it completely
Nov 06 02:15:26 <zilt> ajmitch: hardware doesn't support it - read the email
Nov 06 02:15:35 <ajmitch> interesting
Nov 06 02:15:47 <Writchie> i'm not so sure the hardware supports it without change - is the pass-band wide enough
Nov 06 02:16:37 <zilt> Michael Shiloh says: "Unfortunately it's much more complicated:
Nov 06 02:16:40 <zilt> it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification"
Nov 06 02:16:48 <zilt> That's more then just a simple mistake
Nov 06 02:16:58 <Writchie> cluster something 
Nov 06 02:17:38 <Writchie> 850/1800/1900 and 900/1800/1900 are not exactly rocket science - this is 3 year old stuff
Nov 06 02:20:50 <linux_galore> I have this inner feeling the OM/NEO will get swamped by alternate options
Nov 06 02:21:28 <linux_galore> over the next year
Nov 06 02:21:46 <linux_galore> the Mobile phone market space is pretty flooded with options right now
Nov 06 02:21:47 * mwester-road has just read the community emails, and wonders if any Europeans are interested in purchasing a lightly-used Neo1973 with debug board.
Nov 06 02:22:18 * Mek already has one (and should be sleeping right now...) :P
Nov 06 02:22:38 <Writchie> there is as yet no sign of manufacturers rushing in to supply hardware for roll-your-own phones. 
Nov 06 02:22:53 <zilt> hmm... found a table - there's GSM850 _only_ countries:  Anguilla, Ecuador, Montserrat, Panama, St. Kitts and Nevis, Turks and Caicos Island
Nov 06 02:22:56 <Writchie> fic remains unique at this point. 
Nov 06 02:23:04 <linux_galore> Writchie: CECT will make anything you ask for
Nov 06 02:23:13 <zilt> Don't expect many developers from those countries though :)
Nov 06 02:23:14 <Writchie> depending on volume
Nov 06 02:23:51 <Writchie> zilt: it's not a case of 850 only - in many cases 850 + 1900 is required for good coverage. 
Nov 06 02:24:01 <Writchie> after all- we are talking about mobility
Nov 06 02:24:15 <Writchie> not you're coverage from home 
Nov 06 02:24:23 <zilt> Writchie: just going by the gsm freqs and countries table at rogers website
Nov 06 02:24:56 <mwester-road> Wow, that's a major mistake on FIC's part.  Without 850, it's basically a europe-only phone.  And the GTA02 is botched as well.
Nov 06 02:25:12 <zilt> Writchie: http://www.fido.ca/portal/en/support/coverage.shtml#different_bands
Nov 06 02:25:13 <mwester-road> So basically, now I have a very very expensive PDA
Nov 06 02:25:22 <Writchie> mwester-road: not exactly - its still a european tri-band
Nov 06 02:25:39 <Writchie> same situation as about 4 years ago
Nov 06 02:25:58 <linux_galore> mwester-road: not really, most PDA's have a smaller screen with far lower res
Nov 06 02:26:02 <PirateHead> Plus, even in mature markets, I wouldn't say we're "flooded with options".
Nov 06 02:26:52 <PirateHead> For desktops, there are two credible proprietary systems (Apple's and Microsoft's) and a few credible open technologies (Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE, Mandriva).
Nov 06 02:27:15 <linux_galore> try buying a open pda with a decent res screen, they cost a fortune
Nov 06 02:27:54 <PirateHead> For servers, throw in a few more competitors: NetWare, various UNIX technologies (BSD, Solaris, etc), and so on.
Nov 06 02:28:03 <linux_galore> although the N800/N810 are pretty good
Nov 06 02:28:14 <linux_galore> for the money
Nov 06 02:28:15 <mwester-road> So basically, the North American market is closed to this project.  Bummer.  And I'll be so bold as to say it: "Openmoko:  This is a bone-headed mistake of colossal proportion."
Nov 06 02:28:22 <Mek> btw, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update to tell openmoko you need 850
Nov 06 02:29:44 <mwester-road> linux_galore: I'm open to someone selling me the device as a PDA; I'd like to feel better about the investment!  But frankly, if I wanted device that didn't do phone, I'd own an N800.
Nov 06 02:29:46 <Writchie> mwester-road: it remains to be seen whether they can/will provide an Americas Tri-band. 
Nov 06 02:30:31 <linux_galore> the US market is too big to ignore
Nov 06 02:30:45 <mwester-road> But the problem is that they DID ignore it!
Nov 06 02:30:46 <Writchie> not really
Nov 06 02:31:10 <mwester-road> How in the heck could they have gotten this far, and not figured this out before the GTA02 was done?
Nov 06 02:31:17 <mwester-road> I'll tell you - I just realized the answer.
Nov 06 02:31:32 <mwester-road> The focus for Openmoko has been the HDX* device.
Nov 06 02:31:36 <linux_galore> Writchie: might be right if you consider all the lockin packages sold in the USA compared to Europe
Nov 06 02:31:58 <StylusEater> HDX?
Nov 06 02:32:17 <mwester-road> They forgot the community, ignored the feedback on the bug tracker, the IRC channel, and as a result they finished the GTA02 before they realized it was botched.  And then they didn't dare tell anyone.
Nov 06 02:33:18 <mwester-road> StylusEater: The product that doesn't exist -- it was unveiled the other day; its a smart, GSM-connected GPS navigation device.
Nov 06 02:33:19 <Writchie> the hardware has been botched in a number of regards
Nov 06 02:33:24 <linux_galore> how about they knew and the US market is a waste of time for such a device considering most mobiles are sold packaged in the USA
Nov 06 02:34:01 <mwester-road> linux_galore: Then they should have come clean and told the community that before so many people in NA invested in a product that won't, and can't, work.
Nov 06 02:34:26 <Writchie> mwester-road: this is true.
Nov 06 02:34:43 <StylusEater> I don't think there was something sinister afoot...
Nov 06 02:35:07 <linux_galore> I would have even bothered with the US market to be honest i would have gone for the more open European market 
Nov 06 02:35:15 <mwester-road> StylusEater: "never ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity - Napoleon"
Nov 06 02:35:34 <linux_galore> s/would/would not/
Nov 06 02:35:35 <apt> linux_galore meant: I would not have even bothered with the US market to be honest i would have gone for the more open European market 
Nov 06 02:35:49 <Writchie> the US GSM market is open and its still about 35% - 40% of total
Nov 06 02:35:59 <StylusEater> wuh?
Nov 06 02:36:04 <StylusEater> I thought GSM was a sliver in the US
Nov 06 02:36:15 <Writchie> nope
Nov 06 02:36:17 <linux_galore> Writchie: yes but in Europe ownership of unlocked phones is allot higher than the USA
Nov 06 02:36:22 <Writchie> AT&T + t-mo
Nov 06 02:36:33 <anrp> also, at&t = cingular fyi
Nov 06 02:36:45 <linux_galore> most phones in the USA are sold locked and crippled
Nov 06 02:36:48 <Writchie> linux_galore: the american consumer is another story
Nov 06 02:36:57 <mwester-road> linux_galore: all the more reason for a fully open phone
Nov 06 02:37:15 <StylusEater> yes they are and imho most americans are either too dumb or really couldn't care less as far as it's bright and shiny
Nov 06 02:37:32 <anrp> ooh, a generalization
Nov 06 02:37:35 <StylusEater> s/far/long
Nov 06 02:37:42 <Writchie> they are dumb about mobile for sure. 
Nov 06 02:37:42 <mwester-road> And a nasty generalization at that.
Nov 06 02:37:46 <StylusEater> yes. b/c I'm a dumb american.
Nov 06 02:37:51 <StylusEater> haha
Nov 06 02:37:51 <Writchie> but you can make a lot of money from them
Nov 06 02:38:00 <mwester-road> StylusEater: I'm not.
Nov 06 02:38:04 <linux_galore> mwester-road: yes but the phone prices are 40% lower when locked so the NEO will look primitive and expensive in comparison to a consumer 
Nov 06 02:38:24 * StylusEater really meant he's a US native by birth...not really choice.
Nov 06 02:38:25 <Writchie> yes
Nov 06 02:38:33 <mwester-road> linux_galore: Yep.
Nov 06 02:38:49 <StylusEater> linux_galore: that's what my co-workers have said...
Nov 06 02:38:52 <linux_galore> thats why Im saying the US market isnt a good one for the NEO
Nov 06 02:38:53 <Writchie> that's a disclosure problem - subsdiy - but you have it every where
Nov 06 02:39:16 <mwester-road> linux_galore: But if openmoko did the market analysis and came to that conclusion, and decided that 850 was therefore not of interest, then they shouldn't have sold the device in the NA market.
Nov 06 02:39:32 <StylusEater> mwester-road: good advertisement?
Nov 06 02:40:00 <linux_galore> mwester-road: yes but the product as of yet hasnt been sold as a working device
Nov 06 02:40:24 <mwester-road> It was described as quad-band, and also as having a functional GPS.
Nov 06 02:40:50 <mwester-road> I think both sides would have something to argue, if it would come to that.
Nov 06 02:40:55 <linux_galore> mwester-road: not on the sales page
Nov 06 02:41:27 <StylusEater> I don't see the hdx either...
Nov 06 02:41:59 <zilt> mwester-road: Michael does say in an email reply to me about the missing 850: "By the way, I think GPS is more hopeful."
Nov 06 02:42:21 <mwester-road> linux_galore: here we go.  Down the *#%*$ lawyer rathole.   I'm not going there with you -- we all know that the device was BELIEVED to be quad-band, and openmoko did NOTHING to dispell that misperception.
Nov 06 02:43:18 <linux_galore> mwester-road: the hardware chipset specs are there to be viewed openly, if the hardware can do it then its a matter of the firmware working
Nov 06 02:43:56 <mwester-road> zilt: I sure hope so, but I remain as skeptical on that as I always have been.  But if that's released, then there's some hope for the device being useful.
Nov 06 02:44:23 <zilt> linux_galore: right - so if the hardware isn't capable (as is now being stated) - but it was sold as a quad band phone, what then?
Nov 06 02:44:31 <mwester-road> linux_galore: The chipset specs for the GSM modem are proprietary, and have never been disclosed.  It has been described as quad-band-capable on the mailing list.
Nov 06 02:45:26 <linux_galore> mwester-road: so its basically the proprietry driver not offering the full functionality of the hardware ?
Nov 06 02:45:38 <zilt> anyways - if they fix the missing 850 on the gta02, I'll probably still get one - I'm to much of a developer geek not too :)
Nov 06 02:46:50 <linux_galore> from what Im seeing its not a OM problem but the GSM chipset maker not offering the available features
Nov 06 02:47:12 <duffyd> ohhh, I just took the battery out of my OM while the usb cable was still plugged in, now it doesn't appear to power on - is this bad?
Nov 06 02:47:15 <Writchie> from product page boast of specifications: 2.5G GSM – quad band, voice, CSD, GPRS
Nov 06 02:47:24 <duffyd> as in taking out the battery while the usb cable is plugged in?
Nov 06 02:47:25 <linux_galore> bit like blaming Dell because ATI only offer 16 bit on a graphics card that can do 32
Nov 06 02:47:35 <Writchie> duffyd: not good - don't do it again. 
Nov 06 02:47:44 <zilt> linux_galore: really? I don't think so - unless "it's a combination of circuit, components, firmware, and certification." means something else/
Nov 06 02:47:51 <Writchie> no known case of other than bad noises and burning sounds!
Nov 06 02:47:51 <mwester-road> linux_galore: I didn't buy a GSM modem from TI.  I bought a Neo from Openmoko.  Openmoko can argue the case with TI, but from the mailing list, it doesn't mention who's at fault (TI or Openmoko), but it does mention that it's more than software and firmware.
Nov 06 02:47:52 <duffyd> Writchie: errr, if I can power it back on :(
Nov 06 02:48:16 <duffyd> it started beeping after I unplugged the usb cable :(
Nov 06 02:48:22 <Writchie> pull the usb plug - fast. Then reinsert battery
Nov 06 02:48:32 <Writchie> it's not designed to work with no battery. 
Nov 06 02:49:04 <mwester-road> duffyd: ;) I think there will be a bunch of neo's on eBay real soon... ;) :D
Nov 06 02:49:20 <duffyd> doh still no go. I'll see if leaving it plugged in to the USB for a while helps
Nov 06 02:49:42 * duffyd senses mwester-road 's sarcasm :P
Nov 06 02:49:49 * linux_galore sings the OM Brick song..... BRICK BRICK BRICK, Im a little moko user sad as sad can be, my little moko phone is all bricked as you can see"
Nov 06 02:50:00 <duffyd> mwester-road: I'm in NZ where we use a band supported by the chip so I hope to hang on to mine :)
Nov 06 02:50:01 <Writchie> duffyd: if the batter is dead it will a couple of hours to be able to boot. 
Nov 06 02:50:09 <Writchie> s/will/will take/
Nov 06 02:50:09 <apt> Writchie meant: duffyd: if the batter is dead it will take a couple of hours to be able to boot. 
Nov 06 02:50:15 <duffyd> linux_galore: that's  not nice :)
Nov 06 02:50:19 <linux_galore> heh
Nov 06 02:50:22 <duffyd> k, cool
Nov 06 02:50:27 <duffyd> here's hoping
Nov 06 02:50:36 <duffyd> otherwise me wants to scream and punch walls and stuff ;)
Nov 06 02:50:57 <Writchie> there are several use cases now toast as the result of lack of 850. 
Nov 06 02:51:08 <mwester-road> just several? ;)
Nov 06 02:51:30 <linux_galore> bbl
Nov 06 02:51:32 <Writchie> well, all that involve marketing to US businesses and consumers.
Nov 06 02:52:14 <Writchie> unfortunately, as a t-mo only device is the same situation as an i-tard phone
Nov 06 02:53:14 <mwester-road> Well, on the positive side, it's good to know that the device will never do 850; at least that lets me make a decision about whether to sell it, or see if there's something else I can find for it to do to justify it's cost.
Nov 06 02:53:48 <mwester-road> Right now, if someone gives me a reasonable offer, I'm ready to sell a neo with an advanced kit and all accessories.
Nov 06 02:57:15 <zilt> Michael wants your input on the 850 issue and a possible workaround - goto: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 06 02:59:56 2007