**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 06 02:59:56 2007 Nov 06 03:09:20 us is about the only place that uses 850 Nov 06 03:10:11 Yes? and? Nov 06 03:10:53 and Canada, Carribean, and IIRC parts of Brasil Nov 06 03:11:28 Ecuador and Panama are 850 only. Nov 06 03:11:50 * mwester-road has heard all about how the majority of the better-informed, and smarter countries DO NOT use 850, but hearing that doesn't change the facts. Nov 06 03:11:58 :P Nov 06 03:13:41 850 gsm was a major break-through for countries where 900 was already occupied Nov 06 03:14:03 if 850 wasn't added there would be no gsm in US except for t-mobile Nov 06 03:14:35 both 1800 and 1900 suck for range Nov 06 03:15:01 mwester: I'll give you ten bucks for the lot Nov 06 03:15:21 oh holy crap, they're going to have to go back through the FCC again? Nov 06 03:15:26 in fact, I'll give you ten bucks just for the case the advanced kit came in :-) Nov 06 03:15:50 doc|home: absolutely. 850 was not in the current fcc approval Nov 06 03:15:55 I'll give you 20 CAD for the rest, that's what, 400 USD these days? :) Nov 06 03:15:58 don't worry, GTA01 will be in demand as a android platform Nov 06 03:16:00 rwhitby: for you I might just entertain that offer. :P Nov 06 03:16:02 * doc|home ducks Nov 06 03:16:20 rwhitby: how did this happen? It's a pretty serious f*%kup Nov 06 03:16:24 GTA02 has to be re-tested anyway Nov 06 03:16:46 * mwester-road throws a toonie at doc|home, but reconsiders at the last moment because its the only thing close to real money he has. Nov 06 03:16:47 yeah, they could probably do a board and firmware mod to gta02 to get it triband 850, and then certify that Nov 06 03:16:50 not only that, but the board has to be redesigned? Nov 06 03:16:56 mwester-road: hehe Nov 06 03:17:22 well if they're going to do that they may as well just make a proper quad band Nov 06 03:17:34 doc|home it may only be component changes Nov 06 03:17:55 doesn't sound like that on the list Nov 06 03:17:56 850/900 variants are pretty common with same layout Nov 06 03:18:34 yeah, now that they are done with the HDX-thingy, maybe they can spend some time on "details" like making sure that a quad-band phone is, well, "quad". Nov 06 03:18:41 hehehe Nov 06 03:18:54 wonder if hdx is quad band ... Nov 06 03:19:08 hehe! Good question! Nov 06 03:19:21 Whos that vendor? They might be as surprised as I... Nov 06 03:19:30 ok, so, I've got a motorola l2 here, which I've checked against fido (canada) btu it only offers two pairs of ranges, 850/1900 and 900/1800, how can I check which it's using (it only works on the former) Nov 06 03:20:30 900/1800 won't work in North America at all Nov 06 03:21:11 900/1800 is original GSM dual/band Nov 06 03:22:19 ok, but will 850/1900? Nov 06 03:22:27 seeing as 850 won't, or are they even linked? Nov 06 03:22:55 850/1900 will work on any gsm network in north america but not at all in most of the rest of the world Nov 06 03:23:30 will the neo work on 850/1900 seeing as it won't work on 850, do you need the pair? Nov 06 03:23:45 The carrier assumes (generally) that you have both Nov 06 03:23:45 ATM neo will only work on 1900 Nov 06 03:23:48 doc|home: fido has a good table for freq/countries: http://www.fido.ca/portal/en/support/coverage.shtml#different_bands Nov 06 03:24:30 mwester-road: some carriers will only originate calls if you have both bands although this is rare Nov 06 03:24:42 zilt: ah, sweet, looks like fido in canada uses 1900 Nov 06 03:24:45 but I think rogers does this Nov 06 03:24:47 For example, the higher frequency does not travel as far, and can use smaller antennas, and is easier to "focus" to make directional cells -- perfect for urban, dense areas. The lower frequency is excellent for large areas with low tower density -- perfect for rural. Nov 06 03:24:47 * doc|home breathes a sigh of relief Nov 06 03:24:55 fido = rogers Nov 06 03:25:01 fido -- rogers Nov 06 03:25:28 * zilt spits on the satellite lag Nov 06 03:25:32 mwester-road: 1800/1900 is usually too-expensive as only network and is used in overlays as you say Nov 06 03:25:40 For example, in the US, t-mobile has 1900 coverage in many urban centers, but they roam to 850 towers in less dense areas. Nov 06 03:25:43 fido = rogers = suck Nov 06 03:25:45 :) Nov 06 03:25:47 4 times the cost if you don't use 850 Nov 06 03:25:50 Wow. I just read the 2-hour backlog..... Nov 06 03:26:18 doc|home: total agreement! Roger's data plans are the worst.. Nov 06 03:26:19 mwester-road: i'm not sure t-mo has any 850 of their own, I don't think they even have licenses for it. Nov 06 03:26:19 zilt: satellite connections suck for sure! Nov 06 03:26:28 And not to propose intended malice on FIC/OpenMoko's part, but they did not even apply for an 850 license with the FCC... Nov 06 03:26:55 So, it wasn't an "oops, I forgot about the North American's silly little frequency" Nov 06 03:27:14 zilt: indeed Nov 06 03:27:22 It does not appear there was EVER an attempt to license 850 in the US, which is what ticks me off. Nov 06 03:27:24 mwester-road: yup - $150/month for 300k up?? and a 780ms ping time Nov 06 03:27:35 i suspect it was more a communication problem between the chinese and europeans Nov 06 03:27:46 zilt: better than fido data :) Nov 06 03:27:49 Perhaps. Nobody asked me, tho. Nov 06 03:28:03 doc|home: heh Nov 06 03:28:12 I could have said, "Gee, you might want to try out one of the hokey sim cards and run it in the US before selling it here." Nov 06 03:28:27 sagacis__: Funny, but I said something similar when the P0 phones were issued -- something along the lines of why didn't any of them go to North America? Nov 06 03:28:41 o.O Nov 06 03:28:44 none went? Nov 06 03:28:50 mwester-road: Me too. They went to markets that all had similar systems to tw. Nov 06 03:28:51 quad-band is still a premium feature worth a premium price. Nov 06 03:28:53 seriously, bad form all round :/ Nov 06 03:29:03 oh yeah, we paid for quad-band Nov 06 03:29:15 Writchie: I think the price was fair. Nov 06 03:29:35 The cost of these little devices should probably have been higher. I doubt any money was made on P1 at all. Nov 06 03:29:40 $300 was fair even for european tri-band Nov 06 03:30:14 However, I'm looking favorably at gumstix and building my own now, if FIC/OM can't give me an open phone for US usage. Nov 06 03:30:15 but those who need 850 are, well, screwed. Nov 06 03:30:19 The ultimate in bad form, from where I stand, is how long it's taken them to release this info. Surely someone knew, but didn't tell -- which is bad. And if they didn't know, then someone was just not listening to the community, or just dropped the ball completely. Either way, it's a very bad situation. Nov 06 03:30:23 I'm just bummed I wasted my money on it. Nov 06 03:30:49 mwester-road: this exact statement was made many months ago. Nov 06 03:31:34 at least the story is now confirmed, GTA01 as shipped will never work on 850. Nov 06 03:31:35 I paid attention to using my Neo this weekend. Nov 06 03:31:39 does the list have greylisting? Nov 06 03:31:49 what list is that? Nov 06 03:31:53 GTA02 may or may not support and 850 variant Nov 06 03:31:53 mailing list Nov 06 03:32:08 GTA02 will not be a quad-band phone. Nov 06 03:32:14 I live in a major metro area, and 850 is used to fill gaps, even traveling a mile away from my house. Nov 06 03:33:04 I'm on a fringe, so I switch from 850 to 1900 as I change rooms in my house! Nov 06 03:33:10 the problem, as I was being told, is that the modem, even though it is sold as a four-band modem, only can support three bands at a time: 1800, 1900 and 850 xor 900 Nov 06 03:33:17 a network will not work in US withou 850 anymore than one in europe without 900 Nov 06 03:33:26 I have 1900 with t-mobile if the neo is on the right-hand side of my desk, close to the west window. Nov 06 03:33:28 mwester-road: Me too. My bedroom and living room are 1900, others 850 Nov 06 03:33:28 :) Nov 06 03:34:29 why 850 xor 900 ? Nov 06 03:34:29 Henryk: Someone mentioned that on the mailing list a week or two (?) ago; I guess I had just assumed that meant a special AT modem command to switch between the set of tri-bands. Nov 06 03:34:50 <|R> so it can be toggled? Nov 06 03:35:13 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update Nov 06 03:35:17 |R: perhaps, but according to the mailing list, not by means of software or even simple hardware changes. Nov 06 03:35:21 Henryk: the modem supports all 4 bands, only one high and low are ever used at one time. However, the rf sections must be laid out to support dual low-bands and dual hi-bands and the neo is laid out for only one low-band. Nov 06 03:35:33 oc2k1: because there are only three signal paths, and each of them needs a special filter for the frequency. so you need to solder in different filters for 850 and 900. and then do a new calibration Nov 06 03:35:35 "850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board" Nov 06 03:36:12 component changes to the board could support 850 by sacrificing 900 Nov 06 03:36:38 which is common known as european triband versus americas tri-band Nov 06 03:37:11 dip switch :P Nov 06 03:37:14 ok, so this was quite obviously design with only tri-band in mind Nov 06 03:37:24 is it just me or is this a fuck up? Nov 06 03:37:39 either on the marketing side or on the design side Nov 06 03:37:40 even 850 with component changes and sacrificing 900 may have problems and in any case requires certification. Nov 06 03:37:47 doc|home: You must be in the US Nov 06 03:37:52 ;) Nov 06 03:37:54 I might call it worse than that, but I'll wait to hear what fic/openmoko have to say further on this. Nov 06 03:37:54 oc2k1: not a gigahertz Nov 06 03:37:58 sagacis__: Irish in Canada :P Nov 06 03:38:07 sagacis__: will work for me I hope :o Nov 06 03:38:10 so, this means no openmoko in the us? !! Nov 06 03:38:16 doc|home: Ah, even worse. You really do need quadband Nov 06 03:38:17 no Nov 06 03:38:17 oc2k1: not only component changes, but you also need to reload calibration data which you probably wouldn't be able to do as an end user. not even speaking of certification here Nov 06 03:38:24 I haven't had 850 ever and my phone works fine in the US Nov 06 03:38:43 then you don't travel very far, u_l-lap Nov 06 03:38:43 ok, good Nov 06 03:38:49 u_l-lap: If you use ATT or T-Mobile, you have to use 850 Nov 06 03:38:54 mwester-road: up and down the east coast Nov 06 03:38:57 <-- uses att Nov 06 03:38:58 that was ironic :P I know the problem of microwave designs... Nov 06 03:39:03 sagacis__: no t-mo is 1900 only that is why I got t-mo Nov 06 03:39:11 sagacis__: I thought it didn't look like it but now I'm not so sure :( Nov 06 03:39:12 OM does not have any of the systems or management or mindset which would prevent such screw ups. Use Cases, Marketing requirements, Specifications, Design Reviews, Verification, Validation, etc. do not really exist (yet). Nov 06 03:39:15 u_l-lap: It roams on 850 Nov 06 03:39:19 as three years ago there were no good 850 phones so I had to illegaly import one from europe Nov 06 03:39:22 u_l-lap: the east coast is a small, very small some would say, part of the entire country. Nov 06 03:39:28 sagacis__: Only in *very small pockets* Nov 06 03:39:37 mwester-road: it is the most densely populated part Nov 06 03:39:38 bah, stupid US. Not only not having GSM coverage everywhere but also not using the same frequencies as everyone else. Can't they please just stop being so special? Nov 06 03:39:43 the rest is a desert and some hippies Nov 06 03:39:46 Not so in other parts of the US. Nov 06 03:40:05 Oh. Sorry, u_l-lap, I was not aware that the east coast was the only part that mattered. My mistake, then. :P Nov 06 03:40:12 ok, so, if I have 1900mhz coverage, will that be enough for the neo? Nov 06 03:40:14 heh. I'm a desert hippie! Nov 06 03:40:17 actually, the europeans selected a frequency already in irrevocable use in the US. Nov 06 03:40:53 doc|home: yes Nov 06 03:40:58 doc|home: Yes, if you are content with pockets of coverage. Nov 06 03:40:58 doc|home: Not for me. I can't travel a mile down the road without flipping between frequencies more than once. Nov 06 03:41:00 u_l-lap: thanks Nov 06 03:41:04 "You may experience better signal level with an 850 MHz-capable handset in more-rural areas, but you are not likely to notice any difference in urban areas where there is Fido network coverage." Nov 06 03:41:04 Henryk: uses 850 too - plus several other countries in the Americas Nov 06 03:41:08 doc|home: where do you live roughly? Nov 06 03:41:20 a other question, what will be with the opengl es implementation? Smedia doesn't have many informations on their page Nov 06 03:41:25 Henryk: Canada uses 850 too.. Nov 06 03:41:32 u_l-lap: downtown vancouver but work slightly outside the city Nov 06 03:41:40 hmm, never been there Nov 06 03:41:44 I had service in toronto though Nov 06 03:41:55 service I didn't use because I was afear of the horrible roaming charges Nov 06 03:42:03 yeah, they suck Nov 06 03:42:16 "fifteen million dollars per second" Nov 06 03:42:21 so the summary is that without 850 coverage will suck, and suck even worse in rural areas? Nov 06 03:42:27 Yep. Nov 06 03:42:29 ok Nov 06 03:42:30 nasum: Yup. Nov 06 03:42:34 nasum: no it will only suck if you use AT&T or live in the midwest Nov 06 03:42:35 :-( Nov 06 03:42:36 rural will be non-existant. Nov 06 03:42:38 If suck == "not at all" Nov 06 03:42:39 * nasum uses ATT Nov 06 03:42:51 nasum: it depends where you spend your time. Nov 06 03:42:57 San Francisco and NYC Nov 06 03:43:06 mwester-road: the rural places I have been had service most of the time Nov 06 03:43:09 I can use 1900 in parts of my house and in some buildings at work Nov 06 03:43:29 nasum: AT&T are evil anyway, dump 'em :) Nov 06 03:43:34 u_l-lap: Please, please don't insult me by continuing to mistake the east coast for the entire country. Nov 06 03:43:36 I guess I'll just use the wifi/voip option .. wait DOH Nov 06 03:43:39 Though there is 1900 coverage ALL along my commute, since ATT and Cingular merged (doubled coverage), I seem to hop around a lot Nov 06 03:43:49 sagacis__: perhaps you could use 1900 in more places but your handset switches to 850 when available? Nov 06 03:43:54 t-mobile is relatively good in most major cities, but nothing like service in europe or asia where dual bands are widespread. Nov 06 03:43:57 How can you tell which frequency you're using? Nov 06 03:44:24 u_l-lap: I would love to, but the neo keeps dropping. I don't really have any control over the selection of frequencies. Nov 06 03:44:31 Especially when driving 80 mpg Nov 06 03:44:31 The real question is this: can you live with "maybe" for coverage, or do you need to have coverage wherever you travel? Nov 06 03:44:39 s/mpg/mph Nov 06 03:44:41 mwester-road: you cannot say rural service will not exist when it will in some places Nov 06 03:44:42 If coverage is "optional" for you, then the neo will work in the US. Nov 06 03:44:57 It makes a nice clock. Nov 06 03:44:59 If you expect to use the device where ever you are, then you cannot use it. Nov 06 03:45:02 sag: hehe Nov 06 03:45:02 For the record, I'm on rural US T-mobile. It works. Nov 06 03:45:04 period. That simple. Nov 06 03:45:07 Of course, the time rarely right... Nov 06 03:45:27 right now I would say neo is only suitable for those who presently are satisfied with t-mo on a european tri-band Nov 06 03:45:28 Aria, everywhere? Do you use it daily? Nov 06 03:45:48 sagacis__: For now, in my town. Not using it that much because of software though Nov 06 03:45:50 mwester-laptop: I also used to work for t-mo and, assuming their coverage maps haven't changed drastically in the last two years (who knows), roaming was 1900 almost everywhere on both coasts with *very* few 850 spots in the midwest where nothing else was available Nov 06 03:45:56 My "it just works" dialer doesn't answer unless it is showing, and sometimes crashes. Nov 06 03:46:02 sagacis__: But yes, the Commnet Wireless-owned T-mobile subcontractor works Nov 06 03:46:19 u_l-lap: you have a very different map than the one t-mobile shows. Nov 06 03:46:26 but is everyone here just a user?? Nov 06 03:46:47 what happens to your business cases when you can't use AT&T network Nov 06 03:47:37 u_l-lap: You must stick close to major motorways. 1900 towers really don't reach too far. Nov 06 03:47:48 sagacis__: I don't use motorways at all Nov 06 03:48:30 trains and my bicycles the dynamic duo Nov 06 03:48:43 If you can't get full coverage in north america, then the device becomes even more of a niche product. Rather than meeting the vision that Sean lays out on the openmoko.com website, the device becomes a PDA that occasionally offers GSM service, but you still need your RAZR for real cell phone use. Nov 06 03:49:35 u_l-lap: you don't drive anywhere, yet you claim that you have complete coverage with 1900 on the entire east coast? Nov 06 03:49:36 u_l-lap: Good for you. What is your normal traveling range, in distance? Nov 06 03:49:56 mwester-road: I (used to) travel up and down the coast a lot Nov 06 03:50:34 sagacis__: regularly about 80 miles with the occasional 300 mile hop up to maryland, but I've been up and down the entire coast on tour Nov 06 03:50:34 <|R> but uhm, is it too late / hard to add a quad band path on the GTA02 board ? Nov 06 03:50:40 u_l-lap: I hardly think your experience in terms of the type of travel for the typical commuter is common -- it's a good datapoint for train and local travel, but it doesn't really count for coverage on the expressways. Nov 06 03:50:58 I also ride with people on the highways Nov 06 03:51:20 Ok. Nov 06 03:51:23 service in 85 between richmond and dc is a bit spotty but that is it along the major travel corridors Nov 06 03:51:27 s/in/on/ Nov 06 03:51:28 u_l-lap meant: service on 85 between richmond and dc is a bit spotty but that is it along the major travel corridors Nov 06 03:51:28 |R out of the question for GTA02 Nov 06 03:51:45 <|R> :( Nov 06 03:52:06 tri-band 850/1800/1900 MAY be possible. Nov 06 03:52:12 * |R moves his christmas gift list to GTA03 :P Nov 06 03:52:14 offered as a variant model Nov 06 03:52:23 christmas 2008 Nov 06 03:52:32 hehe! Nov 06 03:52:33 mwester-road: my point is just that no 850 is not the end of the world Nov 06 03:53:03 u_l-lap: my point is that there are many many people who expect a cell phone to work whereever they are, and that for them, lack of 850 is a show-stopper. Nov 06 03:53:06 u_l-lap: it _is_ if you live and work in a 850 only zone (which I do) Nov 06 03:53:12 u_l-lap: unless your market is U.S. Nov 06 03:53:35 mwester-road: anyone who expects their phone to work everywhere is a bit deluded Nov 06 03:53:36 * |R is with Fido in MTL ... Nov 06 03:53:40 even verizon doesn't work everywhere Nov 06 03:54:16 u_l-lap: my daughter goes to school in Boston, there's no way in hell she will EVER have a phone that doesn't do 850 -- I will not risk her not being able to place a call because she's in a bad spot for 1900. I travel, I can't risk not making a phone call because I'm in the wrong part of the airport terminal. Nov 06 03:54:22 * zilt is with ROgers in Ottawa Nov 06 03:54:31 It's just stupid to limit your ability to communicate. Nov 06 03:54:32 mwester-road: boston ... 850? Nov 06 03:54:45 mwester-road: my phone was fine there when I went two years ago Nov 06 03:54:55 There's more to ma. than boston downtown, you know. Nov 06 03:55:18 a north-american triband (850/1800/1900) is acceptable for 98% of americans, all those who do not travel International. Nov 06 03:55:20 we went to some strange places and played a show in a basement after walking up and down and crossing the town on the T Nov 06 03:55:44 I even had service in middle of nowhere maine Nov 06 03:55:52 1900, howver, is not acceptable because it precludes 2/3rd of the GSM market which is already only 40% of total market. Nov 06 03:56:03 s/1900/1900 only/ Nov 06 03:56:03 Writchie meant: 1900 only, howver, is not acceptable because it precludes 2/3rd of the GSM market which is already only 40% of total market. Nov 06 03:56:14 <|R> what are the GSM bands in japan? Nov 06 03:56:22 no GSM in japan. Nov 06 03:56:28 except maybe one small carrier Nov 06 03:56:32 japan has another system or not? Nov 06 03:56:45 they have their own Nov 06 03:56:49 |R: None - Japan is W-CDMA Nov 06 03:57:03 <|R> zilt : i know, but i thougth that they had coverage like we do here Nov 06 03:57:20 they have far better coverage and system Nov 06 03:57:26 however its incompatible with rest of the world Nov 06 03:57:47 |R: didn't think they did - but I've never been (want to though) Nov 06 03:58:07 <|R> zilt : hehe same here, trying to go at the end of mars, i'll tell you if i see an openmoko in the street haha ;) Nov 06 03:59:09 |R: And I'll planning on going to Aus in March - I'll let you know about that too :) Nov 06 03:59:24 of course, I'm sure there's ozzies around here... Nov 06 03:59:39 <|R> :) Nov 06 04:01:39 maybe the orange GTA02 can be 900/1800/1900 and the black 850/1800/1900 ;) Nov 06 04:02:20 <|R> fine by me ;) Nov 06 04:03:07 look like nobody likes the orange version :P Nov 06 04:04:06 since I got a black GTA01 I want an orange GTA02 to be able to tell them apart :P Nov 06 04:04:16 <|R> haha Nov 06 04:04:30 GTA02 is the one with the LED Nov 06 04:04:40 behind the key Nov 06 04:05:09 And the wireless networking Nov 06 04:05:19 orospakr, just play some music and check the speakers Nov 06 04:05:42 Or wiggle and see if the screen flips (once that's added, of course) Nov 06 04:05:52 <|R> hehe or install an accelerometer aware screen saver... the one that dies when you shake it is the new one :P Nov 06 04:06:35 or hold it up to your head and see if the WiFi warms your brain Nov 06 04:07:17 <|R> wiiii! colors! Nov 06 04:08:43 how many european carriers roam with AT&T in US versus t-mo?? Nov 06 04:11:15 so yeah, I wonder what the OHA/Android stuff is going to do to OpenMoko. Nov 06 04:12:17 anyone have trouble building xserver-kdrive package in the last few days? Nov 06 04:13:27 orospakr: read the apache license and fear not! Nov 06 04:16:58 <|R> u_l-lap : hehe, this bsd ^H^H^H apache license is going to be horrible... i see carriers starting to push custom highly locked phones onto people.. Nov 06 04:17:31 |R: no the apache license has some really evil clauses Nov 06 04:17:32 <|R> and thus get rid of nokia and the like who were trying to open their market outside of those carriers... Nov 06 04:17:38 <|R> u_l-lap : oh? Nov 06 04:17:51 let me find the fsf page on it Nov 06 04:18:06 <|R> i thought it was a BSD license making it clear that you have your patent away... Nov 06 04:18:22 <|R> s/have/give/ Nov 06 04:18:22 oh those bastards updated their license Nov 06 04:18:23 |R meant: i thought it was a BSD license making it clear that you give your patent away... Nov 06 04:18:29 now I can't hate them eternally Nov 06 04:18:58 <|R> hehe Nov 06 04:19:10 <|R> there is 1.0 1.1 and 2.0 of that license i think... Nov 06 04:19:16 <|R> OHA is v2 Nov 06 04:19:22 yeah 2.0 fixes the evil bits Nov 06 04:23:15 gn8 Nov 06 04:23:50 |R: hardly Nov 06 04:24:22 bsd licence roughly means "I don't care what you do with my code so long as you give me props if you use it" Nov 06 04:24:57 <|R> agreed :) Nov 06 04:24:59 the disclaimer clauses absolve me of any responsibility if you violate someone's patent by using it Nov 06 04:25:18 <|R> i don't see how this cooperation is going to take place between competitors... Nov 06 04:25:24 yeah, me neither Nov 06 04:25:29 <|R> beside having a very basic core needed for the rest... Nov 06 04:25:49 <|R> and than everyone is going to fork into proprietary extension, embrace and extend mayhem Nov 06 04:27:51 <|R> u_l-lap : hehe, this bsd ^H^H^H apache license is going to be horrible... i see carriers starting to push custom highly locked phones onto people.. Nov 06 04:27:57 pretty much the same as now then :) Nov 06 04:29:00 doc|home: I agree Nov 06 04:29:25 luckily google is behind it so all of the lamers will flock to it Nov 06 04:29:27 still though, openmoko (or something equally open) or nothing Nov 06 04:29:32 u_l-lap: haha Nov 06 04:29:56 "omg it is from google they make cool things like gmail they are the best" Nov 06 04:30:35 "oh no google has enslaved us" Nov 06 04:31:08 text messages with contextual ads! :P Nov 06 04:31:35 just need txt blocker add-on Nov 06 04:31:56 <|R> yep... Nov 06 04:32:29 <|R> I'm wondering how nokia will answer to this with the N810 / maemo platform... Nov 06 04:32:36 <|R> Will they open up a bit more? Nov 06 05:21:03 Hello Everybody Nov 06 05:21:07 Hello Nov 06 05:22:29 According to Koen's blog http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-progress he said the dialer now just works Nov 06 05:22:54 But in the he mentioned all using a different distribution Nov 06 05:23:13 Different than what? Nov 06 05:23:18 called Ã…ngström Nov 06 05:23:33 Oh, yeah, and it works Nov 06 05:23:56 so, the Dialer bug fixes are not yet merged to the openmoko distribution? Nov 06 05:24:35 Not sure myself. Nov 06 05:24:41 HAven't paid attention to commits Nov 06 05:24:46 :( Nov 06 05:33:46 * CM yawns Nov 06 05:34:48 * mbuf pops a frog in CMs' yawning mouth Nov 06 05:35:06 /me throws some 850 neos in CM's yawing mouth Nov 06 05:38:00 cb23: :P Nov 06 05:38:29 I noticed the discussion.. Nov 06 05:43:01 CM, heh, indeed Nov 06 05:43:08 think they will make a 850 varient? Nov 06 05:44:16 I wonder if that's a firmware upgrade only.. Nov 06 05:44:37 i'm not sure, they did mention something about the board Nov 06 05:47:39 Hmm.. Ok Nov 06 05:58:19 good morning Nov 06 06:05:11 Hopscotch, good morning Nov 06 06:08:39 Talking about frequencies in US, this was a nice blogpost: http://blogs.gnome.org/dcbw/2007/11/05/t-mo-got-no-spec-trum/ Nov 06 06:15:43 Hello Everybody Nov 06 06:15:59 Did anybody check out this? Nov 06 06:16:01 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=985 Nov 06 06:16:41 Isn't there any other way to access applications ?? Nov 06 06:27:17 impatient guy Nov 06 06:27:19 :) Nov 06 06:42:24 hi everyone Nov 06 06:46:57 Hello Everybody Nov 06 06:47:20 Is it possible to access application without using Today? Nov 06 06:50:31 raddy, run it from the terminal? Nov 06 06:51:55 A simple "Run" program would be nice :) Nov 06 07:07:22 ah what a glorious morning, dont you just love waking up to having fix office wide power failures? :/ Nov 06 07:07:28 having to fix* Nov 06 07:09:40 :/ Nov 06 07:18:59 especially when it involves manually unplugging/replugging 15 or so switches by hand, on two diffrent sides of the building >_< Nov 06 07:34:20 moin Nov 06 07:36:51 abraxa_: ping Nov 06 07:39:00 * CM suspects that students aren't up this early ;) Nov 06 07:47:49 gsm-question: what prevents one from sending sms/data directly to another phone? Nov 06 07:50:16 CM: they sure are.. :( Nov 06 07:50:16 lazy mofos Nov 06 07:50:52 flexd: But weren't you at work? ;) Nov 06 07:50:57 zash: you need a message center to send the message to, Nov 06 07:50:58 CM: I am Nov 06 07:51:08 but i'm the it admin trainee for a college level school ;) Nov 06 07:51:12 that then routes the message to the appropriate device... Nov 06 07:51:20 Heh, ok Nov 06 07:51:48 aka the guy that gets whipped around to do most stuff computer/technology related and gets paid jack shit :p Nov 06 07:53:03 the problem with trying to send direct to a phone is that you'd have to a) have message center software running on it which would limit the phone type, b) have to reconfigure smsc each time Nov 06 07:53:25 and probable c) bypass the nasty carrier blocking systems Nov 06 07:54:21 oh and aside from the fact that you're not really a node on a network like a pc is on a network Nov 06 07:54:57 * ScaredyCat prods flexd Nov 06 07:55:02 coffee here please Nov 06 07:55:05 :P Nov 06 07:55:15 Heh, I could need some of that too Nov 06 07:55:25 * zash pours some coffee at ScaredyCat Nov 06 07:55:51 * ScaredyCat sits about zash Nov 06 07:55:56 above Nov 06 07:56:16 right.... Nov 06 07:56:26 left... Nov 06 07:56:54 I fixed that applications list bug.. or at least fixed it for me Nov 06 07:57:25 ScaredyCat: You have 5 minutes ;) Nov 06 07:57:39 d-bus... Nov 06 07:57:53 just been readling about it to catch up... Nov 06 07:58:04 And? :) Nov 06 07:58:16 can't you just use the system bus rather than the session bus ? Nov 06 07:59:51 * ScaredyCat turns up hearing aid Nov 06 08:00:17 Dunno, I let the gconf daemon handle the connection Nov 06 08:00:28 So it's up to the daemon Nov 06 08:00:33 mmmm..... Nov 06 08:03:17 * abraxa_ runs off to university Nov 06 08:15:00 d : ping Nov 06 08:24:23 * flexd yawns Nov 06 08:24:28 You were saying something? Nov 06 08:24:34 I was away drinking coffee Nov 06 08:24:43 damn phone wouldnt stop ringing so i felt it was needed to leave the office Nov 06 08:25:08 seems power failures break more than one thing, all the fucking projectors are dead too now >_< Nov 06 08:55:56 any interesting rumours on the Google mobile phone platform? Nov 06 08:57:00 perhaps how it might be related to other LiMo partners and their mobile phone platform strategies... Nov 06 08:57:43 It's like, Hey, we've got forty spazzo companies that can't fuck their way out of a paper bag; let's put them all together and maybe they'll magically become some kind of big bad powerhouse. More likely it'll just be some scary ass Frankenstein monster, walking around drooling and tripping over its own tongue. <- FSJ explains the gphone Nov 06 08:57:55 at this point it looks like it's mostly useful as a common hardware layer to build on Nov 06 08:58:39 and that hardware part is not to be taken in its literal sense Nov 06 09:01:07 Don't you think it is a bit uncertain to assume that Google is not able to produce a piece of quality software? Nov 06 09:01:11 at this point it all seems like a load of bollocks Nov 06 09:01:24 But what if they produce something really nice? Nov 06 09:01:46 And what if they were actually to release it under GPL/LGPL... Nov 06 09:01:55 there's no reason them to produce anything other than what there already is Nov 06 09:01:55 I mean seriously, no a single screenshot? not a single piece if useful information? nothing? Nov 06 09:01:57 just cheaper Nov 06 09:02:33 their 'video' says bugger all, their site says less... Nov 06 09:02:56 Google might have some $$ reasons for keeping everything tight for now... Nov 06 09:03:25 they might... Nov 06 09:03:32 i wouldn't be that optimistic Nov 06 09:03:47 the question is why did then even bother to announce it. Nov 06 09:03:59 anyway, I am just saying that IF they actually produce something nice, and if they were to release the nice parts under GPL/LGPL, we should try to be agile to leverage the OpenMoko platform with that. Nov 06 09:03:59 looks like google is the bitch when it comes to this project, they just had to do it that way to get big handset makers into play Nov 06 09:04:15 there's noting available to look at until the 11th, why not announce it then Nov 06 09:04:53 hehe, I for one don't try to understand the minds of marketing dudes ,-) Nov 06 09:05:05 they are so screwed. Nov 06 09:05:14 (sorry 12th not 11th) Nov 06 09:06:10 It would be unfortunate to have more than one telephony API for developing OSS applications for mobile phones. Nov 06 09:21:03 what does the openmoko community think about google's android initiative? Nov 06 09:22:03 not much Nov 06 09:22:39 ..implying that you don't have faith that it'll be a big deal? -or implying that it'll be insignificant in openmoko's efforts? ..or what? Nov 06 09:22:48 there's no information other than the marketing fluff.. we have to wait intil the 12th to get any sort of detail Nov 06 09:23:00 s/intil/until/ Nov 06 09:23:02 ScaredyCat meant: there's no information other than the marketing fluff.. we have to wait until the 12th to get any sort of detail Nov 06 09:25:34 since its under an Apache license, commercial vendors are allowed to not contribute to the community, so.. its really just business-as-usual and doesn't really mean much to the open source community, IMHO Nov 06 09:26:03 you will still see vendor lock in and such Nov 06 09:27:28 apache license is osi approved Nov 06 09:27:33 or not? Nov 06 09:27:57 yes, but that doesnt mean people usingdeveloping for it have to use the same license Nov 06 09:27:59 I dunno if "business as usual" is entirely accurate.. if google's api provides me with standardized hooks into the hardware, that's something that I'm interested in from large manuf's Nov 06 09:28:18 ljp, similar to LiMo, www.limofoundation.org? Nov 06 09:28:32 mbuf: sounds like it ya Nov 06 09:28:34 ljp which is a good thing for some vendors Nov 06 09:29:12 limo="first", openmoko="first", android-stories="first", heh Nov 06 09:29:51 Maledictus: sure it, but not good for the open source community in general; Nov 06 09:30:05 sure is, rather Nov 06 09:30:31 Yeah, I'm also interested in the hw aspect. there is enough open source software out there, but fully documented hardware is rare. that's btw. the only interesting part with openmoko for me too, the neo Nov 06 09:30:43 ljp I think you have no idea :) Nov 06 09:31:00 ljp, how do you think vendor lock-in will still be an issue if multiple manuf's support a common (android) api? Nov 06 09:31:09 * XorA thinks Maledictus never worked in a hardware company Nov 06 09:31:10 apache, X and BSD communities are very vital :) Nov 06 09:31:45 XorA: I didn't. Did I say anything like that? Nov 06 09:32:20 Maledictus: 90% of time lack of hardware docs is due to the fact they really dont exist, its got nothing to do with OpenSource Nov 06 09:32:26 tkooda, even with open source a vendor lockin is very easy Nov 06 09:32:35 and I dont think android will fix that in anyway Nov 06 09:32:58 * mjr suspects that they won't be very avoiding of proprietary drivers with android... Nov 06 09:33:07 * tkooda thinks that Maledictus dosn't quite understand what open source is.. ;P Nov 06 09:33:07 XorA: for me it has something todo with openness in general, which I'm more interested in then the little part of it which is called open source Nov 06 09:33:44 tkooda you have no idea Nov 06 09:33:48 mjr, aah.. that's the first good point (re: proprietary drivers) I've heard against android posibilities Nov 06 09:33:59 Maledictus, saying it dosn't make it true Nov 06 09:34:07 same argument though, even people working on hardware normally have no docs, we make it up as we go along. Hence there is nothing to open Nov 06 09:34:26 and on 6 months design cycles there is no time/money to document the stuff anyway Nov 06 09:35:02 ..unless the google alliance requires it for "compliance" Nov 06 09:35:40 I doubt it, google is tiny and insignificant compared to the hardware companies Nov 06 09:35:41 tkooda, notice "nvidia" there? :] Nov 06 09:35:58 mjr, heh Nov 06 09:36:05 point taken Nov 06 09:36:33 XorA, I disagree Nov 06 09:38:26 oh god Nov 06 09:38:29 not the google fluff Nov 06 09:38:36 * raster goes back to useful stuff Nov 06 09:38:39 raster, what did you expect? Nov 06 09:38:49 its all marketing fluff Nov 06 09:38:55 google fluff ^__^ Nov 06 09:39:04 throw in "linux" and "open source" buzzwords Nov 06 09:39:06 yeah, google == evil == .com2 == blow up in face soon Nov 06 09:39:11 gets the press all excited Nov 06 09:39:14 because buzzwords do that Nov 06 09:39:18 but it lacks any substance Nov 06 09:39:22 until there is any substance Nov 06 09:39:27 ie technical details Nov 06 09:39:36 we used to have a phrase for that, "Our product is buzzword compliant" Nov 06 09:39:49 haha Nov 06 09:39:56 (do they use X11? DFB? qtopia? their own FB based windowing system? is it a FB based wbe browser and all UI's are javascript/css monsters etc/?) Nov 06 09:40:00 whatever Nov 06 09:40:06 useless until we know whats inside Nov 06 09:40:13 fluff. Nov 06 09:40:14 hm Nov 06 09:40:19 raster, I was interested based on (IMHO) google's track record.. (even though the technical specs aren't out until the 12th) Nov 06 09:40:34 fb-browser and a localhost-server that does the phone-things Nov 06 09:40:56 I was presuming that google would be providing a decent api, even though I don't have technical details yet Nov 06 09:40:59 zash: technically possible Nov 06 09:41:07 POST /call {number=12345} Nov 06 09:41:11 zash: ugly and would make me just want to kill whoever created it Nov 06 09:41:16 cool but pointless Nov 06 09:41:16 in the most slow and painful way imaginable Nov 06 09:41:18 but possible Nov 06 09:42:12 On the part of Google being tiny compared to hw vendors, I think you are very wrong. Nov 06 09:43:17 Google is #1 in its market, and this market is quite interesting for mobile phone vendors. Nov 06 09:43:46 google is #1 in search and advertising in the WEST Nov 06 09:44:00 in anything else it's a distant non-event Nov 06 09:44:08 (pretty much) Nov 06 09:44:16 yes, and this is a $$$$ market Nov 06 09:44:19 in china google is nothing Nov 06 09:44:31 in korea and even japan it holds a small percentage of the search/advert market Nov 06 09:44:35 yes Nov 06 09:44:45 and every year the us market goes up by 4% Nov 06 09:44:51 if throwing free phones at people could earn G extra $$$$ they might just do that.... Nov 06 09:44:52 the chinese market expands by 20% Nov 06 09:44:55 justw ait Nov 06 09:45:01 they will overtake soon enough Nov 06 09:45:12 G has said nothing of free phones Nov 06 09:45:16 frankly i dont care about those Nov 06 09:45:20 and if G believes the cheapest and best way to throw free phones at people is to go OSS, then they might just do that as well. Nov 06 09:45:21 i care what their OS stack is Nov 06 09:45:26 and why they think its so great Nov 06 09:45:40 zash: I've been thinking along those lines too, a bare os with a browser doing everything Nov 06 09:45:54 and they have not said a single thing that says "our stak is so much better than anyone elses" OTHER than having signed on a bunch of companies Nov 06 09:46:00 emdete: Was it you who wanted to do that on openmoko? :) Nov 06 09:46:10 oh god no Nov 06 09:46:14 Hehe Nov 06 09:46:15 the humanity Nov 06 09:46:31 I'm not saying I want it, just know it has been talked about Nov 06 09:46:34 mornin' Nov 06 09:46:46 raster: have you seen the tribe stuff? Nov 06 09:46:46 ned to nip that one in the bud Nov 06 09:46:46 :) Nov 06 09:46:50 tribe? Nov 06 09:46:54 raster: Hehe, do that Nov 06 09:47:03 rwhitby: btw - i'm back in this corner of the world Nov 06 09:47:08 in cold wet and rainy sydney Nov 06 09:47:09 BOOOO Nov 06 09:47:13 raster: http://www.tat.se/products/kastor-platform Nov 06 09:47:33 one of the smaller companies in the android marketing release. rumour has it they they have done the UI stack Nov 06 09:48:04 Ah, interesting Nov 06 09:48:43 rwhitby: they have the the ui or a ui for it? Nov 06 09:48:55 hmm Nov 06 09:48:58 in other words is it an option, that costs money Nov 06 09:49:00 thats not too hard really Nov 06 09:49:11 all the interfaces i found from tat's website sucked :/ Nov 06 09:49:16 all the 2d stuff is already done in EFL Nov 06 09:49:22 that's what you're here for raster :) Nov 06 09:49:29 rwhitby: Per Gustafsson was in the Android promo video, and he was one of the founders of TAT Nov 06 09:49:31 i wish Nov 06 09:49:49 CM: that video is just bad. Nov 06 09:50:13 ScaredyCat: It sucks, but they aren't showing anything. Not even screenshots of Android Nov 06 09:50:26 perzackly Nov 06 09:50:33 vapourware Nov 06 09:50:35 ;) Nov 06 09:50:48 i am waiting ith baited breath ... NOT Nov 06 09:51:04 Android is so much top secret for G, but I have reasons to believe it is not vapourware. Nov 06 09:51:14 i sooooooo ned to do my "slipstream" ui idea for e Nov 06 09:51:29 might make a dent tonight Nov 06 09:54:23 ScaredyCat: the tat rumour is so vague that I can't answer your question to me. Nov 06 09:54:25 http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/11/its-not-phone-its-alliance.html Nov 06 09:59:09 gi-el: classic stuff Nov 06 10:00:57 its marketing FLUFF Nov 06 10:07:12 whats up folks? Nov 06 10:07:34 damnit are we still talking about fucking android? Nov 06 10:07:41 fuck android. openmoko blows it away already Nov 06 10:07:46 fluff Nov 06 10:07:47 torpor: We're getting fluffed :P Nov 06 10:07:49 fuck openmoko Nov 06 10:07:50 do openmokos dream of electric androids? Nov 06 10:08:03 hrw: fuck fucking openmoko! Nov 06 10:08:08 openmoko is rockin' Nov 06 10:08:17 fuck the fuckers Nov 06 10:08:19 * torpor is porting bling-it-up to neo1973 .. Nov 06 10:08:25 do you now if android is DEB or RPM? Nov 06 10:08:27 bling-it-up? Nov 06 10:08:37 and what about openmoko? Nov 06 10:08:46 http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~macslow/bling-it-up/ Nov 06 10:09:00 torpor: make my gta01 recognize microsd card Nov 06 10:09:24 gnam, go do more reading on those topics. your questions are nonsensical Nov 06 10:09:33 lol Nov 06 10:09:35 who cares about android? its vaporware people. write code for the machine in front of you. Nov 06 10:11:14 macslow's demo apps are a good port to the neo, and would show it off quite nicely Nov 06 10:11:41 torpor: Doesn't it use glitz? Nov 06 10:11:52 torpor, my inquiry about android was because I don't* have a openmoko/android device "in front of me", and I'm contimplating waiting for an android-compliant device (After I see the specs) Nov 06 10:11:56 torpor: doesnt tell me much other than its one of macslows' nice demo gui app things Nov 06 10:11:56 i'm rather fond of his usage of SVG in bling-it-up .. yes, there are some warts (hit testing for one, buffers for another) .. but until we get a decent scenelib that we can drop between cairo and SVG, its certainly proving to be a nice technique for fancy bling .. Nov 06 10:11:57 :) Nov 06 10:12:16 CM: it doesn't use glitz if you tell it not to .. i've already turned off glitz usage, and it works fine without it .. Nov 06 10:12:22 torpor: htis need for OpenGL (glitz) will kill it on a neo. Nov 06 10:12:29 what does it use? Nov 06 10:12:32 xrender? Nov 06 10:12:32 tkooda: why bother waiting? openmoko is a rockin'g platform. Nov 06 10:12:38 or he has a full software back-end of his own? Nov 06 10:12:50 Some svg viewer? Nov 06 10:12:55 tok end of 2008 apparently Nov 06 10:13:00 it sounds like it should be possible to put android on openmoko-compliant hardware, but not vice versa Nov 06 10:13:00 raster: it does not need glitz. it can use it if its there, but it works just fine without it .. Nov 06 10:13:17 torpor: then what does it use instead of glitz? Nov 06 10:13:20 cjb_ie: Why not the other way around? Nov 06 10:13:22 thats my q Nov 06 10:13:36 bling-it-up is a demo app (clock) tthat uses SVG to describe the GUI, and animates nodes of the SVG DOM as part of the GUI rendering.. its rather smooth but also hacky. and it runs fine on neo. Nov 06 10:13:52 CM: manufacturers will use customised androids with binary blobs for drivers Nov 06 10:14:09 cairo_image_surface_create Nov 06 10:14:30 so unless you can get the blobs you're lost Nov 06 10:14:47 cjb_ie: Hmm.. True, but the devices should still boot a linux kernel, and reverse engineering is possible but painfully slow... Nov 06 10:14:52 torpor, "why wait?": 'cause I might like the large manufacturer's devices or google's api better than openmoko/neo Nov 06 10:15:04 if there are suddenly a wealth of openmoko apps flooding the scene in the next few months, i don't think android is going to be as sexy. Nov 06 10:15:19 tkooda: trust me, you're wasting time. Nov 06 10:15:37 torpor, I have no reason to "trust you" Nov 06 10:15:42 this android announcement just proves how viable openmoko can be. Nov 06 10:15:54 that logic dosn't follow Nov 06 10:15:57 stop arguing and get back to developing ;-) Nov 06 10:15:58 tkooda: other than the fact that i've been using the openmoko API to write apps? Nov 06 10:16:09 cjb, not arguing Nov 06 10:16:20 yeah, what cjb_ie said. . . this isn't #android-fans or #vaporware-coders Nov 06 10:16:25 torpor: oooh uses CAIRO Nov 06 10:16:25 aha Nov 06 10:16:31 raster: yes, lovely. Nov 06 10:16:49 * raster giggles Nov 06 10:16:52 torpor, the fact that you dev moko apps suggests that you could* be biased Nov 06 10:17:10 i'm not sure of your position on CAIRO raster (i imagine you have one) but i've been using it for GUI's for the last few years and it does the trick fine for me .. Nov 06 10:17:27 admittedly, i've been forked off on a rather badly hacked up libsvg-cairo to do scene manipulation, but hey .. Nov 06 10:17:28 cairo - api nice Nov 06 10:17:30 idea nice Nov 06 10:17:30 speed Nov 06 10:17:34 BLEH Nov 06 10:17:36 Hehe Nov 06 10:17:40 speed: not as bad as you might think. Nov 06 10:17:47 indeed as bad as i think Nov 06 10:17:52 i have written a cairo engine for evas Nov 06 10:17:52 oh Nov 06 10:17:53 raster: tell that to cworth.. ;) Nov 06 10:17:54 okay then. Nov 06 10:17:54 * rwhitby notes that torpor has swung from really bashing openmoko development pace to being an openmoko true believer in the space of a couple of weeks ;-) Nov 06 10:18:07 1/20th the framerate of evas's software eninge Nov 06 10:18:18 rwhitby: i have been an openmoko fanboix since day one, man! why else do you think i feel fine bashing the wrinkles!! Nov 06 10:18:22 admittedly -p that may have improved Nov 06 10:18:25 :) Nov 06 10:18:27 raster: but a hell of a lot more portable .. ;) Nov 06 10:18:35 torpor: more portable? Nov 06 10:18:44 * raster scratches his head Nov 06 10:18:49 evas is quite portable? Nov 06 10:18:55 <-- ignorant dweeb Nov 06 10:18:55 yes Nov 06 10:19:01 can i put it on my gp2x? Nov 06 10:19:08 or do i need X? Nov 06 10:19:08 yes Nov 06 10:19:10 no Nov 06 10:19:15 run it through SDL buffers? Nov 06 10:19:20 * rwhitby has never been passionate enough about 1s and 0s to be a fanboy of anything ... Nov 06 10:19:22 it runs on anything thats 32bit - big or little endian Nov 06 10:19:33 arm, pcc, x86, etc. etc. etc. Nov 06 10:19:40 there is an SDL engine Nov 06 10:19:42 a software_x11 Nov 06 10:19:44 rwhitby: And still you manage a distro? ;) Nov 06 10:19:44 well then that sounds like something i should look at when i'm done writing apps with cairo for prettiness .. Nov 06 10:19:45 xrender_x11 Nov 06 10:19:46 opengl Nov 06 10:19:53 framebuffer (raw software) Nov 06 10:19:54 directfb Nov 06 10:19:58 ok then Nov 06 10:20:05 CM: yes, but I know it's limitations too :-) Nov 06 10:20:07 ven a windows directdraw engine Nov 06 10:20:10 point taken: investigate evas and listen more intently to raster. Nov 06 10:20:20 wait, you do windows?!! Nov 06 10:20:21 * torpor pukes. Nov 06 10:20:26 renders to memory buffers Nov 06 10:20:34 a direct3d engine... Nov 06 10:20:43 evas is pretty portable Nov 06 10:20:50 torpor: do you take an extreme view on everything in life? Nov 06 10:21:03 eva sis very DIFFERENT to cairo Nov 06 10:21:06 to be honest raster, i've never been able to get my head around where things are with enlightenment and all that. i remember trying E out about 10 years ago and sorta getting a bit waylaid by the politics\ Nov 06 10:21:13 rwhitby: I'm imagining that's more fun than being too balanced.. ;) Nov 06 10:21:14 its not a vector engine Nov 06 10:21:14 rwhitby: nope. Nov 06 10:21:17 its a canvas object system Nov 06 10:21:22 much more bitmappy Nov 06 10:21:46 raster: quit with the advertising and release it :-D Nov 06 10:21:54 i see .. well i'll scope it out. and now you're in openmoko land, what're you doing openmoko'ish wise? Nov 06 10:22:04 XorA: Hehe.. Nov 06 10:22:21 is evas in the tree now, then? Nov 06 10:22:21 XorA: if people will quit sending me email Nov 06 10:22:38 and asking me to do other projects with controversial appeal... Nov 06 10:22:42 just dont load mutt, then its like they never sent it :-D Nov 06 10:23:11 torpor: hmmmm that's a little undetermined. Nov 06 10:23:12 rwhitby: there's nothing extreme about hating windows .. Nov 06 10:23:22 XorA: yeah- but i havent doe it for like 36hrs Nov 06 10:23:24 so i needed to Nov 06 10:23:35 torpor: i didnt do the windows engines. Nov 06 10:23:38 torpor: there is something extreme about _hating_ anything Nov 06 10:23:40 other crazy gloots did those Nov 06 10:23:50 rwhitby: i hate hating. Nov 06 10:24:10 the offspring - cool to hate Nov 06 10:25:22 guaqua: offspring, first three albums were good ;) Nov 06 10:25:40 rwhitby: nonsense. hate is just a shorter way of saying despise. Nov 06 10:25:53 raster: you still in melbourne? Nov 06 10:26:08 torpor: smellie mellie? Nov 06 10:26:13 torpor: never was! Nov 06 10:26:13 :) Nov 06 10:26:17 i thought you were .. Nov 06 10:26:23 sinnie Nov 06 10:26:26 was a long time since we chatted .. i forget the details. Nov 06 10:26:29 ah, sydney. Nov 06 10:26:38 well just back in sydney Nov 06 10:26:41 as of this morning Nov 06 10:26:55 took a nice rid from singapore to sydney on the A380 Nov 06 10:27:01 cool! Nov 06 10:27:11 the A380 runs linux Nov 06 10:27:16 heh heh .. Nov 06 10:27:17 raster, nice! Nov 06 10:27:27 and man is that thing HUGE Nov 06 10:27:29 did you install E on any of the machiens? Nov 06 10:27:40 i think the a380 is just a little too huge, frankly. its scarey huge. Nov 06 10:27:47 unfortunately its hugeness and linuxness have yet to solve the creaming baby problem Nov 06 10:27:53 hope yougot the bed seat Nov 06 10:27:58 nah Nov 06 10:28:01 i'm no0t that rich Nov 06 10:28:07 hehehe Nov 06 10:28:12 just cattle class Nov 06 10:28:22 so come on answer the question: what are you gonna do with openmoko? Nov 06 10:28:22 install linux on baby, then issue poweroff command Nov 06 10:29:03 ha Nov 06 10:29:28 XorA: Nah, just stop alsa ;) Nov 06 10:30:00 back in oz, eh Nov 06 10:30:27 * CM waits for a long reply from raster on torpors question Nov 06 10:30:49 torpor: i don't know. Nov 06 10:31:00 i can tell you hat i WANT to do Nov 06 10:31:10 ljp: aye. back and stinky Nov 06 10:31:38 XorA: i personally was thinking of applying the sock patch Nov 06 10:31:47 thats what i wanna hear Nov 06 10:31:53 what do you want to do with openmoko raster? Nov 06 10:32:16 raster: thats biological warfare, you end up in gitmo :-D Nov 06 10:32:27 hrw, uploaded extensions for Anjuta build, and sent e-mail to openmoko-devel; your friend could try it? Nov 06 10:34:05 ok Nov 06 10:34:06 wait Nov 06 10:34:09 writing mails Nov 06 10:34:20 np, but do tell us! Nov 06 10:35:36 giv eme 10 mins Nov 06 10:35:43 girlfriend is demanding attention Nov 06 10:35:43 ok Nov 06 10:35:54 <- waiting patiently before i have to leave in 30 minutes .. Nov 06 10:35:55 10 mins isn't a lot of gf attention ;-) Nov 06 10:36:24 cjb_ie: I wish mine was that quick.. :P Nov 06 10:37:02 she wants hr internude Nov 06 10:37:08 and i need to tell her what the network setup is Nov 06 10:38:13 * XorA manges to get totally confused between 1973 and 8753 Nov 06 10:38:48 two very different years Nov 06 10:39:06 * xzcvczx bows to raster :P Nov 06 10:40:02 * ljp wonders about the old 'ELF on Qtopia/Zaurus' Nov 06 10:41:12 errr EFL Nov 06 10:46:04 okay i'm away, gotta go do stuff . . . hope you guys can catch me up on rasters plans in an hour or so .. Nov 06 10:46:19 raster: hope someone gives you a gta02 .. Nov 06 10:46:21 later. Nov 06 10:47:29 * mjr guesses raster will be among the first to have one... Nov 06 10:47:52 nah, he wouldnt optimise as well on fast hardware :-D Nov 06 10:48:17 especially fast hardware with a 3d accelarator :P Nov 06 10:48:30 * jeddy3 hopes raster will get the slowest gta01 we can find Nov 06 10:48:55 bah Nov 06 10:49:00 feckin wireless junk Nov 06 10:49:10 Mek, bah, so either he'll optimize more or write the 3d driver, win/win Nov 06 10:49:21 torpor: i hve 2 gat02's Nov 06 10:49:23 have Nov 06 10:49:56 torpor: alive? Nov 06 10:50:50 raster, he just left :/...but we are still here =) Nov 06 10:50:59 oh Nov 06 10:51:02 you ant to hear too? Nov 06 10:51:22 raster, sure Nov 06 10:51:49 i think i love this phone Nov 06 10:52:03 i want it, i need it, gimmie gimmie gimmie Nov 06 10:52:05 * flexd drools Nov 06 10:52:14 flexd: neo? Nov 06 10:52:17 yes Nov 06 10:52:22 hhehe Nov 06 10:52:26 * raster giggles Nov 06 10:52:30 pity it doesnt have a camera though Nov 06 10:52:32 i hope you have seen the softare running? Nov 06 10:52:35 then i'd be able to order two Nov 06 10:52:36 I have Nov 06 10:52:42 Hoping that improves *some* before i get one Nov 06 10:52:45 and you hve made a phone call? Nov 06 10:52:53 and managed to even hang up? Nov 06 10:52:55 No, is the sound quality shit? :p Nov 06 10:52:58 ande then made a 2nd call after that? Nov 06 10:52:59 :) Nov 06 10:53:05 i dont have a phone Nov 06 10:53:06 <-- noob Nov 06 10:53:08 depends on the phone Nov 06 10:53:16 im waiting for the end-user release Nov 06 10:53:26 right no the software is still uner a lot fo flux and needs work Nov 06 10:53:34 jeddy3: well basically i want OM to be sexy Nov 06 10:53:39 that way i can fiddle and develop stuff all i want, and be able to call and stuff Nov 06 10:53:47 o want to make an ultra0sexy ui that makes even apple look borin and pedestrian Nov 06 10:53:50 boring Nov 06 10:53:55 and not by just out-blinging them Nov 06 10:53:59 then it just gets useless Nov 06 10:54:06 by literally being MORe usable Nov 06 10:54:13 i have a idea Nov 06 10:54:14 Multi-touch would have been sweet.. Nov 06 10:54:21 i was thinking the same Nov 06 10:54:22 it ivolves a klot of sliding things about with your fingers Nov 06 10:54:36 swo your phone is more like a deck of cards you shuffle Nov 06 10:54:40 you shuffle cards around Nov 06 10:54:44 (up, down, left right) Nov 06 10:54:51 aslong as it's not laggy i'm all for it :D Nov 06 10:54:53 raster, interesting! Nov 06 10:55:03 kind of a cross between cards, the ps3/psp ui Nov 06 10:55:10 and the dock Nov 06 10:55:14 raster: it doesnt lag at all right? (the phone atm) Nov 06 10:55:18 of course it will be smooht ans sexy Nov 06 10:55:20 or atleast not superlaggy? Nov 06 10:55:21 what do you think? Nov 06 10:55:28 i would do something laggy? Nov 06 10:55:35 i have no idea who you are Nov 06 10:55:35 who do you take me for Nov 06 10:55:39 Hehe Nov 06 10:55:40 so, maybe Nov 06 10:55:40 a gnome coder? Nov 06 10:55:41 :) Nov 06 10:55:56 * raster waits for the bomb to land Nov 06 10:55:57 *cough* i like kde *cough* Nov 06 10:55:58 * Fatal pins raster and watches him deflate. Nov 06 10:56:17 no actually, gnome is really nice Nov 06 10:56:20 hehehehe Nov 06 10:56:22 flexd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasterman Nov 06 10:56:25 I just dont use linux as a desktop machin Nov 06 10:56:26 e Nov 06 10:56:30 ok Nov 06 10:56:31 ;) Nov 06 10:56:36 then u have no idea who i am Nov 06 10:56:37 :) Nov 06 10:56:52 one thing i DONT do is laggy slow ui;'s that look boring Nov 06 10:56:57 i care about performance Nov 06 10:57:05 i care a lot Nov 06 10:57:08 good Nov 06 10:57:14 i tried the emulator Nov 06 10:57:15 i have sunk a lot of my life into writing optimised gfx routines Nov 06 10:57:19 and i suddenly felt the need to gouge myself. Nov 06 10:58:22 there's no use in fancy eyecandy if the user experience suffers, I don't understand why people pushes the eyecandy to sub 15fps performance. see it way too often on consumer products :/ Nov 06 10:58:24 the ui and stuff was nice, and i know it's just the emulator being sucky, the phone looks great from videos Nov 06 10:58:44 i just had horrid nightmares about the phone being that laggy Nov 06 10:58:49 ^^ Nov 06 10:58:51 flexd: the speed in qemu is abysmal for sure Nov 06 10:59:01 It's much faster on the phone Nov 06 10:59:13 good good Nov 06 10:59:43 (I have an amd64 3000+ for reference) Nov 06 10:59:58 i have a 4000+, and a c2d laptop-something Nov 06 11:00:05 both laggy like hell heh Nov 06 11:02:53 enlightenment looks sweet anyway, hoping the phone will look the same :D Nov 06 11:03:59 Fatal: 15fps is fine - 10 is ok. its the 5fps or 2fps where you really suffer. Nov 06 11:04:08 Fatal: and not just fps - it's snappiness Nov 06 11:04:13 raster: aye Nov 06 11:04:14 i press - i expect it to react - immediately Nov 06 11:04:19 not 0.3 seconds later Nov 06 11:04:24 or 1 second later Nov 06 11:05:01 raster: the bestest thing with slow interfaces are the one that lack visual feedback, those I really love *dripdrip* Nov 06 11:05:13 s/one/ones/ Nov 06 11:05:15 Fatal meant: raster: the bestest thing with slow interfaces are the ones that lack visual feedback, those I really love *dripdrip* Nov 06 11:05:20 doh Nov 06 11:05:21 something that shows that's the phone is doing something Nov 06 11:05:22 would be nice Nov 06 11:05:32 and like help texts or something if you hoover items too :o Nov 06 11:05:52 moving around on the emu, like in messages, you have really no idea what the diffrent buttons do :/ Nov 06 11:06:01 flexd: How do you hover a touch-scren? Nov 06 11:07:08 Fatal: i know what u mean :( Nov 06 11:08:27 btw, decent wacom touhcpads do support hovering :P Nov 06 11:09:37 Mek: Yes, and angles of the pen too, that's cool :) Nov 06 11:11:01 CM: good point Nov 06 11:11:07 Well some kind of info Nov 06 11:11:18 like labels or something, i found the current buttons a bit confusing Nov 06 11:11:23 but then again i didnt read any manual either so Nov 06 11:11:41 flexd: Would a well documented homepage with screenshots be enough? Nov 06 11:11:53 * CM takes a lunch break Nov 06 11:12:15 CM: essays, 5000 page inch by inch documentations! (or what you suggest) Nov 06 11:12:29 * flexd goes on lunch too Nov 06 11:23:48 but then again if i want documentation i might aswell write some myself if there's missing stuff when i get my phone, gotta learn how to do write proper documentation before my exams anyway Nov 06 11:24:13 a help system integrated in the phone would be nice as well... I think qtopia has one.. :) Nov 06 11:26:22 for maximum geeking Nov 06 11:26:29 im gonna make my python ircbot run on the phone :D Nov 06 11:36:52 i just want my phone to be so sexy womens cloths just fall off when they see it Nov 06 11:36:54 :) Nov 06 11:37:00 clothes Nov 06 11:38:38 i thought that was the feature on the next release Nov 06 11:40:32 raster: do that and i will worship you Nov 06 11:41:03 doubt it will work, unless you hax the display into hypnotizing someone or something ;) Nov 06 11:41:11 openvoodoo Nov 06 11:43:56 flexd: just use http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/FuturamaHypnotoad.gif/180px-FuturamaHypnotoad.gif as screensaver Nov 06 11:53:08 flexd: i'll try! :) Nov 06 11:53:41 raster: btw, women in cloths falling off sounds ok too.. ;) Nov 06 11:57:16 Fatal, ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD Nov 06 11:58:23 :) Nov 06 11:58:30 I've always liked this one: http://www.makku.com/img/optical-illusion-wheels-circles-rotating.png Nov 06 12:00:57 hi, how usable curreny OpenMoko release is on GTA01? I mean, can you make calls with it? Can you send/receive SMS? How long does the battery last? Nov 06 12:04:46 TTT: Usually calling works, sms doesn't yet because there's no program for it, battery doesn't last long at all Nov 06 12:05:23 TTT: But it's getting better all the time, so don't be afraid of ordering one if you like to tinker Nov 06 12:05:27 ok, and did the EU certification issues get resolved yet? Nov 06 12:05:34 What issue? Nov 06 12:05:51 I read somewhere on the page that it cannot be legaly sold in EU Nov 06 12:06:05 not that I care :) Nov 06 12:07:07 the thing is, i like to tinker, but I don't have too much time available for that. I would need a phone that supports SMS, Calls and battery that lasts at least 24h Nov 06 12:07:35 and 350 USD (with shipping to London) doesn't seem too bad for a phone with linux inside Nov 06 12:07:54 have you also included taxes in that price? :) Nov 06 12:08:03 oh Nov 06 12:08:04 :) Nov 06 12:08:22 Hmm.. I haven't heard anyone saying anything about it is illegal Nov 06 12:08:37 Also, I had to pay taxes for it too when importing it into EU Nov 06 12:08:55 my advanced kit costed about 80 euros in taxes I think.. Nov 06 12:10:08 TTT: You might want to hold out for a GTA02 now though.. Nov 06 12:10:26 I might, i don't need it right now, I was just Nov 06 12:10:29 I wonder if it will be available this year though... Nov 06 12:10:46 well, i'll just keep OpenMoko in mind when I'm buying my next phone Nov 06 12:12:29 thanks guys Nov 06 12:12:32 Btw Nov 06 12:12:40 TTT: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates Nov 06 12:12:51 Check in there every now and then to see how things are going.. :) Nov 06 12:13:29 I will Nov 06 12:13:43 btw, about Wifi on the phone, i suspect it will drain battery like hell... Nov 06 12:14:18 Probably some, but the screen and cpu is taking most still.. Nov 06 12:14:22 TTT: there are chipsets which do not do that all time Nov 06 12:14:44 yeah, LCD backlights and CPUs are notorious for that... Nov 06 12:15:05 limiting it to 802.11b (if possible) could cut down power use quite a bit.. Nov 06 12:15:39 The new Atheros chip looks really nice in regards to that (power) Nov 06 12:16:40 what about linux support? Will madwifi run on it? With which HAL? Nov 06 12:16:45 * CM was refering to http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5024332766.html Nov 06 12:17:08 TTT: "A GPL-licensed Linux driver for that chip is available, and has already been adopted by the OpenMoko project." Nov 06 12:17:20 nice Nov 06 12:20:39 TTT: madwifi is for atheros 5k chips. gta02 use 6k chip Nov 06 12:21:11 Can it do other than simple AP/client 'cooked' mode? (6k) Nov 06 12:21:28 no idea Nov 06 12:21:40 what's 'cooked' mode? Nov 06 12:22:23 flexd: 'you have a packet from the ap' Nov 06 12:22:48 versus (the option of) 'this is the raw packet that we recieved over the radio' Nov 06 12:23:26 The second allows some more flexibility, without actually requiring everything to work to the nominal 802.11 protocol. Nov 06 12:30:24 SpeedEvil: ah Nov 06 12:31:14 Not only for hacking purposes - but also ones like simple p2p protocols, and timed burst protocols, with the radio and CPU off most of the time. Nov 06 12:31:17 Im sure i know what you mean, but just to make it even more basic; Nov 06 12:31:28 there's a cookie here to you from bob Nov 06 12:31:28 vs Nov 06 12:31:34 someone delivered something at the door Nov 06 12:31:47 sort of? ^^ Nov 06 12:32:00 and you can in the second case examine all the packaging to see if it's been dented in transit Nov 06 12:32:06 or ... Nov 06 12:32:59 hmm maybe a bit advanced for me, but i get the general idea yeah Nov 06 12:38:43 hey all Nov 06 12:38:53 anyone home? Nov 06 12:39:16 not right now... :P Nov 06 12:39:21 * CM hides under the table Nov 06 12:39:44 just curious (I'm waiting for the consumer version) any thoughts on Android? Nov 06 12:40:06 * XorA gets chainsaw ready Nov 06 12:40:10 Is openmoko going to beat it to market? Nov 06 12:40:33 on a phone I mean Nov 06 12:41:06 XorA: chain him! Nov 06 12:42:38 don: There is a #android, but it's fairly quiet there. Wait a week and we'll see what it's all about :) Nov 06 12:42:44 * XorA goes to lunch so don is a lucky man Nov 06 12:42:55 Hehe Nov 06 12:43:55 hey there. i postponed purchasing an openmoko kit because i thought there was going to be a hardware refresh in october, but this doesn't appear to have happened. have i got my facts straight? Nov 06 12:44:51 I'm not trying to upset anyone Nov 06 12:45:25 just curious as to what impact this will have Nov 06 12:45:33 if any Nov 06 12:45:39 dw: delayed - look at topic Nov 06 12:46:36 don: We don't know yet, because this android gang doesn't say anything but fluff.. Nov 06 12:47:02 ok Nov 06 12:47:44 dw: Also, look at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates Nov 06 12:48:00 oh, doh. :) sorry Nov 06 12:58:16 thanks all Nov 06 13:09:44 OK I have a question Nov 06 13:10:00 I am reading about Android at pcworld Nov 06 13:10:01 no Nov 06 13:10:32 I found this little tidbit Nov 06 13:10:35 * raster pulls out the fluff police Nov 06 13:10:36 ignoring "no" Nov 06 13:10:40 :) Nov 06 13:10:44 According to the Android open license agreement, anyone can modify the OS to suit their needs--including locking it down. Nov 06 13:11:07 what about openmoko? Nov 06 13:11:46 it's open Nov 06 13:12:09 This article compares Android locking to the iPhone bricking and says "With an open platform driving all Android phones, hackers should whip up something for any locked-down Android device even more easily." Nov 06 13:12:22 don: openmoko isw open enouhg to become locked down Nov 06 13:12:28 it just will take aq fair bit of work Nov 06 13:12:34 depends what you mean by locked down too Nov 06 13:12:49 would it take that much? Nov 06 13:12:57 well Nov 06 13:13:00 what do you mean Nov 06 13:13:01 just a new gui on top? Nov 06 13:13:02 Locked down" Nov 06 13:13:05 ? Nov 06 13:13:17 Verizon writes their own stuff Nov 06 13:13:33 I'm guessing locked into their vm only Nov 06 13:13:35 depends Nov 06 13:13:48 how hard would it be to write a gui and remove all access to features Nov 06 13:13:56 they don't want you to use Nov 06 13:14:27 Now it should be easy enough to "re-enable" them but the average user would be out of luck. Nov 06 13:15:44 raster, have you done any interesting OM work already, besides the blingy bootsplash thing? Nov 06 13:16:26 I had to hack my cell phone to get my own pictures off and put ring tones on. Nov 06 13:21:15 raster: i'm with you on the slidey pointy fingery clothes drop-offery Nov 06 13:21:19 as long as there is music as well. Nov 06 13:21:24 can't have stripping without chunes. Nov 06 13:21:28 and by that i mean CHOONS Nov 06 13:21:37 so thats why i'm working on a mini-DAW application for the neo right now.. Nov 06 13:21:46 which will be probably quite interesting once i get a gta02 in my hands Nov 06 13:21:53 btw, if you've got one to spare raster, gimme. ;) Nov 06 13:22:01 or anyone for that matter .. Nov 06 13:22:53 jeddy3: bup Nov 06 13:23:32 torpor: sorry - no spares. engineering units. internal Nov 06 13:23:48 i forget - you work for openhand now right? Nov 06 13:23:54 it's nearly december anyway ... Nov 06 13:23:58 *cough* Nov 06 13:24:00 no Nov 06 13:24:04 i work at openmoko Nov 06 13:24:06 ScaredyCat, indeed, christmas sooon Nov 06 13:24:12 yeah ScaredyCat but i dont think we'll be able to order until january Nov 06 13:24:26 oh raster: you work for openmoko? man i didn't realize that. don't i feel stupid. Nov 06 13:24:41 i thought you were doing your own thing .. but now it all makes sense. Nov 06 13:24:42 stupid drugs. Nov 06 13:24:46 torpor: Was a mail about it last week :) Nov 06 13:24:57 i missed that Nov 06 13:25:06 torpor: jehehehe Nov 06 13:25:10 should take e's Nov 06 13:25:15 me too, just picked it up when it was posted here Nov 06 13:25:15 makesz you clear Nov 06 13:25:16 sharp Nov 06 13:25:17 focused Nov 06 13:25:19 no those are bad Nov 06 13:25:24 :) Nov 06 13:25:26 raster, bup? :) Nov 06 13:25:26 me Nov 06 13:25:29 i write me e Nov 06 13:25:30 :) Nov 06 13:25:33 my Nov 06 13:25:34 The community-list is noisy... Nov 06 13:25:38 who will be able to afford one in January Nov 06 13:25:41 is is Nov 06 13:25:45 ~curse gsmd Nov 06 13:25:47 May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, gsmd ! Nov 06 13:26:02 torpor: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011355.html Nov 06 13:26:14 ta Nov 06 13:26:45 apt: thats pretty polite hen it comes to gsmd Nov 06 13:26:50 you're being nice Nov 06 13:26:57 i think it will want to be friends Nov 06 13:27:00 so if i release a killer app for openmoko what do you think my chances of employment would be like? Nov 06 13:27:13 torpor: 7 Nov 06 13:27:23 zero - we're all moving to android Nov 06 13:27:27 ~lart gsmd for working like it should Nov 06 13:27:28 * apt holds gsmd to the floor and spanks him with a cat-o-nine-tails for working like it should Nov 06 13:27:30 * ScaredyCat chokes Nov 06 13:28:08 put it this way torpor.... Nov 06 13:28:20 ~curse ScaredyCat Nov 06 13:28:22 May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, ScaredyCat ! Nov 06 13:28:27 hah! good one apt! Nov 06 13:28:34 raster just drew some graphics on a screen.... got him a job :P Nov 06 13:28:45 * ScaredyCat runs around raster Nov 06 13:28:59 raster: 7 is good, i'll take 7 Nov 06 13:29:09 okay back to course for me .. i'm away now. Nov 06 13:29:26 CM: new exhaust this week... where's that replacement! Nov 06 13:29:42 later Nov 06 13:29:44 not bad though 191k km on 1 exhaust Nov 06 13:30:30 ScaredyCat: I'm busy retiring myself from here ;) Nov 06 13:31:04 * CM wonders if this page should be updated: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_nominees_for_GTA02_P0 Nov 06 13:31:30 yeah, but AFTER I get my new car Nov 06 13:32:25 * ScaredyCat checks b/w usage again... Nov 06 13:33:01 ooo... Nov 06 13:33:02 mmm Nov 06 13:35:01 * * OM Bug 994 has been created by ryuch(AT)yahoo.com Nov 06 13:35:02 * * openmoko-today2_svn.openmoko.org_.trunk.src.target.OM-2007.2.applications_3287_.tar.gz Nov 06 13:35:02 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=994 Nov 06 13:41:06 hi, can someone comment about Gphone vs Neo1973? Nov 06 13:42:27 xD Nov 06 13:45:11 edu: Not really, as gphone doesn't exist. Nov 06 13:46:19 JohnMahowald: okay. But will impact the market as google is behind... Neo 1973 will compete? Nov 06 13:46:40 You might compare Android vs. OpenMoko instead. Nov 06 13:47:23 ... but since there's no real info on Android, that's a bit difficult... Nov 06 13:47:31 need to wait until after the 12th Nov 06 13:50:04 I think the channel topic has to change to something like "There is no Android, don't even think about asking.." ;) Nov 06 13:50:26 so, red pill or blue pill...? Nov 06 13:50:45 leave it to marketing.... Nov 06 13:50:52 it's the bluered or redblue pill! Nov 06 13:51:17 and woe betide anyone who gets the wrong one Nov 06 13:51:32 the result is a purple pill, isn't it? Nov 06 13:51:47 no, that's magenta, and trademarked by T-Mobile Nov 06 13:52:26 whereas o2 have only trademarked oxygen, or any liquids with bubbles in Nov 06 13:52:38 right Nov 06 13:52:40 And breathign. Nov 06 13:54:06 SpeedEvil: that's patented under "Dioxygen / Carbon Dioxide transfer via mechanical areation" Nov 06 14:04:16 I'm trying to build the dev environment with MokoMakeFile and I have some errors Nov 06 14:05:50 I have run the sequence Make update-makefile setup update many times but it fails on package libxxf86dga-1.0.1 or xserver-kdrive-1.3.0.0 Nov 06 14:05:51 cjb_ie: so every time you fart in a bath you have to pay royalties? Nov 06 14:06:27 presumably. Nov 06 14:07:37 when I make clean-package libxxf86dga I get errors on xserver-kdrive and when I make clean-package xserver-kdrive I get errors on libxxf86dga Nov 06 14:09:56 what errors? Nov 06 14:10:03 And before to reach this point (task 3402) I had to do the make update-makefile setup update clean-package openmoko-devel-image for like 6 or 7 failed packages Nov 06 14:11:01 ScaredyCat: Wouldnt that be like a free hottub? Nov 06 14:11:16 assuming you can keep the pressure up :p Nov 06 14:11:30 * flexd tries to avoid thinking about such thigns Nov 06 14:11:31 that's a lot of beans Nov 06 14:12:17 The first error I can see is "xf86dga1.h:64: error: previous declaration of 'XF86DGAGetVideoLL' was here" Nov 06 14:12:41 flexd: not free if you have to pay o2 royalties... :( Nov 06 14:15:46 What is the typical experience with MokoMakeFile, is it working for most of the users or there are problems? Nov 06 14:17:37 jmichel: That Nov 06 14:17:43 Sorry Nov 06 14:18:01 * * OM Bug 995 has been created by hrw(AT)openedhand.com Nov 06 14:18:02 * * Moko theme has too small arrows in menu Nov 06 14:18:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=995 Nov 06 14:18:05 jmichel: I saw mickyl having some kdrive errors yesterday, but only on one of his machines Nov 06 14:18:33 There was some "ugly" way around it Nov 06 14:18:48 i had kdrive errors yesterday as well Nov 06 14:20:02 00:27 adding #define XID CARD32 in render.h fixes it Nov 06 14:20:34 gi-el: have you found a way around this poblem? Nov 06 14:20:47 CM: Ok I will try this out Nov 06 14:20:53 CM: thanks Nov 06 14:20:58 jmichel: no, i was too busy doing other stuff, so i'll just wait until it's gone :) Nov 06 14:21:12 does someone know how to make openmoko-browser load page? Nov 06 14:21:14 jmichel: That's weird though, means something from the host is getting into the build Nov 06 14:21:25 hrw: Press the middle tab Nov 06 14:21:40 type in an address, then you have to "open in new window" Nov 06 14:21:47 sick Nov 06 14:21:55 gi-el: Does it mean you don't have the problem anymore ? Nov 06 14:21:59 Yes, HIG-nightmare Nov 06 14:22:49 and less then 50% of screen used Nov 06 14:22:58 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/d3659b18a18d02c58614e7a0d6bc077b.png Nov 06 14:23:26 hrw: I think I measured 53.6% ;) Nov 06 14:24:13 anyway too much too less Nov 06 14:24:51 Yes, and the fullscreen mode should really be full screen Nov 06 14:25:53 time to fill few wishlist bugs for it Nov 06 14:26:10 zecke will hate me in worst situation Nov 06 14:26:51 hrw: Did koen enable the fingerscrolling? I haven't updated for 2 days Nov 06 14:27:01 * * OM Bug 996 has been created by hrw(AT)openedhand.com Nov 06 14:27:01 * * Browser lack FullScreen button Nov 06 14:27:03 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=996 Nov 06 14:27:07 Would be nice to get rid of those scroll bars Nov 06 14:29:16 o yes Nov 06 14:29:23 I've read about the dimensions of the neo Nov 06 14:29:23 but Nov 06 14:29:34 flexd: want comparision? Nov 06 14:29:35 you guys that have one, how "pocket friendly" is it? Nov 06 14:29:42 i've got a w810i Nov 06 14:29:46 obviously it's alot bigger Nov 06 14:29:51 moment Nov 06 14:29:55 but just wondering if it's even pocket-able :p Nov 06 14:30:09 flexd: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hrwandil/413643600/ Nov 06 14:30:09 and what to do with the stylus and all, do you really need it with you at all times? Nov 06 14:30:20 flexd: neo, k750i, nokia6210 Nov 06 14:30:25 flexd: It is, unless you're wearing really tight pants and want to have it in your back pocket ;) Nov 06 14:30:32 oh Nov 06 14:30:35 that's not so big Nov 06 14:32:04 * zash wants Nov 06 14:33:27 hrw: you made me want it even more now Nov 06 14:33:35 belios.de needs a good kicking again Nov 06 14:33:52 berlios even Nov 06 14:34:01 * * OM Bug 997 has been created by hrw(AT)openedhand.com Nov 06 14:34:02 * * Keyboard does not popup when cursor is inside of form entry Nov 06 14:34:02 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=997 Nov 06 14:34:18 ooh Nov 06 14:34:22 i got a genious idea now Nov 06 14:34:28 patent it! Nov 06 14:34:32 * Stephmw chuckles Nov 06 14:34:39 it's sort of taken Nov 06 14:34:44 but it'l be fun at the office Nov 06 14:35:02 the browser realy needs to be more space-efficent Nov 06 14:35:04 setting up a office webcam stream, to see if people sneaks in here and all (we've had some problems with it) Nov 06 14:35:22 then sit watching the live stream on the neo over wifi! D: Nov 06 14:35:34 like a security camera heh Nov 06 14:36:04 offtopic: can someone suggest GOOD spyware detector for windowsxp? Nov 06 14:36:08 zash: have you seen Opera Mini? Nov 06 14:36:19 hrw: spyware search and destroy + hijackthis Nov 06 14:36:29 Stephmw: Opera mini is sort of nice Nov 06 14:36:37 atleast v4+ Nov 06 14:36:42 Stephmw: yes but i dont rememer how it was Nov 06 14:36:47 the latest beta is nice to use Nov 06 14:36:53 flexd: url? Nov 06 14:36:56 where you can zoom out on the page and all Nov 06 14:37:11 http://www.spywareinfo.com/~merijn/programs.php Nov 06 14:37:26 http://www.safer-networking.org/ Nov 06 14:37:51 first link is hijackthis, it's not really a spyware detector, but you can remove stuff from the startup and stuff easy :) Nov 06 14:39:03 second is spyware s&d which removes alot of stuff Nov 06 14:39:26 flexd: adaware used to be good.. Nov 06 14:40:19 CM: has it gotten bad? Nov 06 14:40:49 Stephmw: I don't know, haven't used it much lately besides cleaning my parents computer every time I visit Nov 06 14:41:16 CM: adaware is good too Nov 06 14:41:21 hrw: Lavasoft's AdAware can be worth a look Nov 06 14:42:54 http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/ Nov 06 14:42:55 nice Nov 06 14:48:56 Still have problem with MokoMakeFile: package libxxf86dga-1_1.0.1-r1: task do_compile: failed Nov 06 14:53:34 raster left the channel, but still: http://osnews.com/story.php/18886/Rasterman-Speaks-Out-About-Enlightenment/ Nov 06 14:58:07 CM: currently searc&destroy is searcing Nov 06 14:58:29 when neo1973 OUT? Nov 06 14:58:35 CM: The kdrive error is gone but I still have error in libxxf86dga Nov 06 14:58:39 I've never tried it, but heard good about it Nov 06 14:58:59 jmichel: I'll try to update and rebuild and see if I can get something Nov 06 14:59:09 jmichel: paste your error log in a pastebin Nov 06 14:59:32 CM: The error says "XF86DGA.c:105: error: conflicting types for 'XF86DGAGetVideoLL'" Nov 06 14:59:41 CM: what's a pastebin ? Nov 06 15:00:54 ~pastebn Nov 06 15:00:56 ~pastebin Nov 06 15:00:57 it has been said that pastebin is a place to paste your stuff without flooding the channel - try http://pastebin.ca, or http://channels.debian.net/paste, or http://rafb.net/paste/, or http://pastebin.com is usually painfully too slow and unresponsive to use, use one of the other pastebin sites, or dpaste.com is a very nice pastebin as well Nov 06 15:01:08 :) Nov 06 15:07:00 openmoko: 03thomas * r3363 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-appmanager2/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Nov 06 15:07:00 openmoko: * src/Makefile.am: Nov 06 15:07:00 openmoko: * src/appmanager-window.c: (main): Nov 06 15:07:00 openmoko: * src/ipkg-utils.c: Nov 06 15:07:00 openmoko: * src/ipkg-utils.h: Nov 06 15:07:02 openmoko: * src/tool-box.c: (on_upgrade_clicked), (tool_box_new): Nov 06 15:07:04 openmoko: Implement installing packages from toolbar button Nov 06 15:07:13 CM: Here is the output of MokoMakeFile starting where the failed task started: http://pastebin.ca/763515 Nov 06 15:09:29 jmichel: Hmm.. Maybe you just have to rebuild that lib? Nov 06 15:10:41 jmichel: Btw, I'm not an openmoko dev and don't know much about bitbake either. Try make rebuild-package-libxxf86dga Nov 06 15:15:03 jmichel: It builds here, NOTE: build 200711061602: completed Nov 06 15:17:56 CM: make rebuild-package didn't work so I'm currently running out of options Nov 06 15:18:15 CM: I'll try the develper mailing list Nov 06 15:18:27 jmichel: Also, look in bugzilla Nov 06 15:18:54 jmichel: could be in the openembedded bugzilla, since it's a kdrive/xorg-libs thing Nov 06 15:19:15 jmichel: http://bugs.openembedded.org/ Nov 06 15:21:17 CM: thanks for the help Nov 06 15:21:39 Wish i knew more ;) Nov 06 15:26:45 jmichel you could try removing any source file you could find in the sources directory (tar file, .lock, .md5) or in the svn or cvs directory under sources Nov 06 15:27:00 hi Nov 06 15:27:31 jmichel and then removing all the stampfiles relative to that package (they are in build/tmp/stamps/arm-something/package-name* Nov 06 15:29:31 Ghiottone|work: and then rebuild ? Nov 06 15:29:51 * CM nods Nov 06 15:30:14 Before, rebuilding from scratch usually solved those weird compile issues Nov 06 15:30:18 jmichel even the build should fetch the package again. and if it is a cvs/svn version, a newer one could be fetched Nov 06 15:30:22 i think -c rebuild also works Nov 06 15:30:26 bitbake -c rebuild packagename Nov 06 15:30:51 gi-el: yes, but then you have to be in the build folder and source ../setup-env ;) Nov 06 15:30:55 gi-el for it to work you have to do . /setup-env; cd build Nov 06 15:31:02 cm eheh :) Nov 06 15:31:07 well, yes :) Nov 06 15:31:19 gi-el: that make rebuild-package-%s is just for us lazy ones ;) Nov 06 15:32:09 openmoko: 03chris * r3364 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-worldclock2/ (ChangeLog src/worldclock-main.c): Nov 06 15:32:09 openmoko: * src/worldclock-main.c: (main): Nov 06 15:32:09 openmoko: Set the window title Nov 06 15:32:30 Ghiottone|work: I've realized I'm no longer the slowest typer like I used to be.. ;) Nov 06 15:32:46 abraxa_: :P Nov 06 15:33:57 CM eheh Nov 06 15:48:11 Ghiottone|work: I tried removing all sources and stampfiles related to libxxf86 and the "make openmoko-devel-image" redownloded the sources but the build failed as usual Nov 06 15:49:32 jmichel did make build-package-libxxf86 have success? Nov 06 15:49:59 Ghiottone|work: no Nov 06 15:53:21 Ghiottone|work: the same error shows up when I "make rebuild-package-libxxf86dga-1.0.1" and when I "make openmoko-devel-image" Nov 06 15:54:52 jmichel then it's probably a source problem. applying the fix suggested before by CM did something? otherwise if it downloads from svn or cvs you could try Nov 06 15:55:20 jmichel to go in to the work dir and revert to a previous version and do a build-package command Nov 06 15:56:04 Ghiottone|work: It is a source problem, and the oe guys will look at it as soon as they get the time Nov 06 15:56:56 Ghiottone|work: The fix suggested by CM worked but it was for another error I had Nov 06 15:57:23 Ghiottone|work: I'll try to get a previous version Nov 06 15:57:56 By the way, since this morning, when I "make update" I get "svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.berlios.de': Connection refused". Probably this url is down ? Nov 06 15:58:50 jmichel: Yes, berlios is down a lot Nov 06 15:59:27 jmichel: But also, as Ghiottone|work said, that "hack" in kdrive might mess up the libxxf86dga package Nov 06 15:59:48 hrw: why should I hate you? Nov 06 16:00:43 zecke: Did you have time to look at that kdrive thing mickeyl mentioned yesterday? Nov 06 16:01:10 zecke: jmichel is having that problem too now, as well as a libxxf86dga thing.. Nov 06 16:01:57 zecke: I started openmoko-browser Nov 06 16:02:20 zecke: I can fill bugzilla with bugs for it (mainly wishlist ones) Nov 06 16:03:43 hrw: sure go ahead, if you like pain read the UI descriptions and check if something you want to have is already there Nov 06 16:04:44 * arw1 hello people Nov 06 16:05:16 zecke: ;) Nov 06 16:05:27 :) Nov 06 16:10:56 I'm confused. I'm reading http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile and trying to follow the quilt instructions therein. Nov 06 16:11:38 It *seems* to indicate that a patch file will be created in a place where it will be automatically appliedd. Nov 06 16:11:54 However, when I rebuild the associated package, the patch isn't applied. Nov 06 16:12:08 I'm missing some step in the magic spell. Nov 06 16:12:48 (which is the problem with magic; when the magic fails, people are left not understanding the science behind the magic) Nov 06 16:15:11 Oh! Following wrong magic instructions. Back to work! Nov 06 16:20:01 <|R> Interesting, the Apache v2 License is compatible with GPLv3... Nov 06 16:20:19 |R: Noticed that ars article too.. ;) Nov 06 16:20:59 Also interesting: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/multitap-pad.enlighten Nov 06 16:21:03 <|R> CM: hehe:) Nov 06 16:21:56 yo Nov 06 16:23:51 |R: the Apache folks (and several lawyers) believe Apache v2 is compatible with the GPLv2. Nov 06 16:23:58 |R: I'd say it's a bit naive to think those companies listed would share any code at all unless they are forecd to. Nov 06 16:24:07 <|R> CM: agreed :| Nov 06 16:24:13 <|R> i don't get the whole point Nov 06 16:24:47 |R: I think it's a compromize from google, just like he wrote (ars) Nov 06 16:25:22 It would be impossible to get all those companies to sign up otherwise Nov 06 16:25:34 <|R> yeah, it sure it is, but for me it sounds like a compromise for which the result is having nothing new Nov 06 16:26:51 so what did raster have to say about what hes gonna be doing? Nov 06 16:26:57 <|R> aside from all of them respecting APIs in their own corners of the world... i really don't understand at this point Nov 06 16:26:59 some sorta flippy interface or something? Nov 06 16:27:16 flexd: the neo is quite pocketable. Nov 06 16:27:38 torpor: Yes, he mumbled something about a deck of cards Nov 06 16:27:52 that you flick around with your fingers :) Nov 06 16:27:56 i see. Nov 06 16:27:58 dreamy Nov 06 16:33:55 hi Nov 06 16:34:00 yo Nov 06 16:34:46 is there some information, somewhere, about the sms/mms software that will become part of openmoko? Nov 06 16:35:14 dread: the only info is that someone is working on it. Nov 06 16:35:55 so, "they" are working on it as an internal project that will be release at some point? Nov 06 16:36:28 dread: I'm not sure the development has even started yet Nov 06 16:36:41 but when it is, it will be in the open of course :) Nov 06 16:37:14 The rumours, afaik, is that it will use eds-dbus, just like the mail program Nov 06 16:37:42 dread: OM developers have gone on record that they will never support MMS Nov 06 16:37:43 I most definitely want to store all my sms', they barely take any space anyway Nov 06 16:38:15 :-) okay. sounds interesting. did they say why mms is not suported? Nov 06 16:38:39 I think they complained about the specs being incomplete or so Nov 06 16:38:49 they consider it evil consipiracy of carriers to make you pay for something you don't need Nov 06 16:38:59 Hehe Nov 06 16:39:11 Writchie: Mail it over gprs instead :) Nov 06 16:39:35 thats what i'm thinking. Nov 06 16:39:42 like, voice recorder capabilities too .. Nov 06 16:39:46 *g ... yes, but sendingpictures is nice...for some people ;) i just tried qtopia yesterday, it's messaging capabilities are basic but useable :) Nov 06 16:40:05 MMS often free where you have unlimited gprs Nov 06 16:40:29 isn't mms basically operated via gprs? Nov 06 16:41:04 dread: As i get it, it's an sms and then using gprs to send the data Nov 06 16:41:05 mms basically sends url as sms and then retrieves message from wap server Nov 06 16:41:34 Writchie: You know better, and phrace it more nicely, so I'll just be quiet :) Nov 06 16:42:37 it will no doubt be supported on some open stack Nov 06 16:44:23 okay, thanks :-) Nov 06 16:45:21 i'm loking forward to see the messaging component coming up :) that might be the point where neo could become a daily-use phone...+ Nov 06 16:45:48 dread: That and powermanagement :) Nov 06 16:46:38 stable PM is most important for now - basis SMS second. Nov 06 16:47:27 pavelm did have some commandline sms-tool I think :) Nov 06 16:49:14 yes, but as far as i got it, it's only possible to send sms - not to recieve them Nov 06 16:50:15 openmoko: 03thomas * r3365 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-appmanager2/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) Nov 06 16:50:15 openmoko: * src/appmanager-data.h: Nov 06 16:50:15 openmoko: * src/ipkg-utils.c: (progress_bar_pulse), (install_thread_func), Nov 06 16:50:15 openmoko: (run_func_with_gui): Nov 06 16:50:15 openmoko: * src/ipkg-utils.h: Nov 06 16:50:16 openmoko: * src/navigation-area.c: (navigation_area_new), Nov 06 16:50:20 openmoko: (navigation_area_refresh_with_package_list): Nov 06 16:55:07 CM: power management is hard. Nov 06 16:55:33 like a rock Nov 06 17:01:44 i tried sending sms, works sort of...crashes gsmd though..really clunky...libgsmd-tool could be used to read sms if you are lucky.. Nov 06 17:04:55 is there any partnership between openmoko and the 'open handset alliance' (google's thing) ? Nov 06 17:06:04 dont think so...although there were rumours some time back iirc Nov 06 17:06:23 i wonder if their kernel will be completely open Nov 06 17:06:50 It has to be, but the drivers don't.. Nov 06 17:07:32 hmm... no gsmd or gpsd then ? drat. Nov 06 17:30:27 CM, you evil highlighter :( Nov 06 17:30:43 * abraxa_ sends Androis fanboys after you Nov 06 17:45:29 help w/ moko touchscreen? Nov 06 17:45:50 x-y coordinates not making it to neod Nov 06 17:46:10 calibration program always shows same values no matter where screen is poked Nov 06 17:49:06 up/down click registers just fine... Nov 06 17:49:06 recent (and sudden) behaviour... Nov 06 17:49:06 any ideas? Nov 06 17:49:06 ~seen roh Nov 06 17:49:51 wheeeeee **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 06 17:51:34 2007 Nov 06 17:56:40 abraxa_: Hehe Nov 06 17:58:08 CM: Did you want anything in particular? :O Nov 06 17:58:24 abraxa_: Nope, sorry to bother Nov 06 17:58:45 Just replied to that evil highlighter comment ;) Nov 06 17:58:52 oh, lol Nov 06 17:58:58 Nah, no bother ;p Nov 06 18:01:29 sort of late but (from earlier): I really dont see why OM should support mms, it supports email, and wifi with gta02 on the neo, that's 10x better. Nobody really sends mms anymore do they? Nov 06 18:02:46 mms is just an SMS with a URL in it anyway innit? Nov 06 18:03:43 yes Nov 06 18:05:20 It should support MMS to interoperate. I don't care for it personally, and quite understand why it's not a priority, though. Nov 06 18:05:28 flexd: whatever other functionality is available to them, people like thinking they're receiving picture messages. Nov 06 18:06:19 also, as mjr says - there are people who may not have email or web client on their phone, that nevertheless can send and receive MMS, with whom it would be helpful to interoperate Nov 06 18:08:10 abraxa_: Well, maybe one thing ;) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_nominees_for_GTA02_P0 Nov 06 18:08:40 lol thanks Nov 06 18:09:17 * CM pokes lazy openmokians to vote :P Nov 06 18:26:43 hi Nov 06 18:27:27 does openmoko have anything to do with google's android, and if not.. have they contacted the openmoko comunnity at all? Nov 06 18:29:03 Edulix: I suggest you don't bring up Android anymore Nov 06 18:29:15 Most people here are bound to be sick of it by now ;) Nov 06 18:29:48 The general consensus is has no impact on OpenMoko at all and is nothing substantial until proven otherwise Nov 06 18:30:02 abraxa_: ok Nov 06 18:30:17 zecke: hey, heard you are coming to foss.in, looking forward to have a chat with ya =) Nov 06 18:30:25 abraxa_: thanks for answering ;) Nov 06 18:30:44 Edulix: You're welcome, and I guess we really should put it into the topic Nov 06 18:34:55 any news about android Nov 06 18:34:57 :P Nov 06 18:35:49 the topic, eh Nov 06 18:35:52 noone reads the topic :/ Nov 06 18:36:33 anrp: i was testing about safety on irc on purpose..i have a gigantic ego Nov 06 18:36:39 :P Nov 06 18:36:42 >:o Nov 06 18:37:09 hmm... now what was that command to get apt to do mean and evil things again... Nov 06 18:37:18 ~lart cb23 Nov 06 18:37:19 * apt forces cb23 to use Outlook Express Nov 06 18:37:21 there Nov 06 18:37:25 eww Nov 06 18:37:28 Sup3rkiddo: sure :) Nov 06 18:37:49 :) Nov 06 18:38:00 ~fish Sup3rkiddo Nov 06 18:38:09 * apt slaps Sup3rkiddo around with a large trout Nov 06 18:38:18 mmm...trout Nov 06 18:43:16 we are android. resistence is futile. prepare to be assimilated Nov 06 18:43:38 * CM doesn't want any 'roids Nov 06 18:44:22 * cjb_ie is reminded of an asteroids clone from way back when, called hemi-roids Nov 06 18:44:31 * Sup3rkiddo envisions a future where soon, people would driving their google with their google to get the google at the google Nov 06 18:45:18 Sup3rkiddo: The 2010 version of smurfing? ;) Nov 06 18:45:38 bah Nov 06 18:47:06 * abraxa_ will never get why the guys (and girls) at Subway who mangle the sandwiches together are called "Sandwich Artists" Nov 06 18:47:24 to compete with starbucks Nov 06 18:47:27 Not *once* did my sandwich look as nice as those on display Nov 06 18:47:28 and t3h barista Nov 06 18:47:36 (r?) Nov 06 18:48:15 Yeah Nov 06 19:00:35 hehe nice topic Nov 06 19:02:57 BTW I know it's futile, but I have sent an email asking for information to google about why they didn't join android. I don't expect to get much (if any) from it, but I sent it anyway Nov 06 19:04:04 Edulix: er... huh? Nov 06 19:04:21 uhm Nov 06 19:04:26 Edulix: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21637990/ ;) Nov 06 19:04:28 s/android/openmoko/g Nov 06 19:04:57 Ah Nov 06 19:05:00 :P Nov 06 19:05:17 Cause google wants to make money Nov 06 19:05:20 you know, sometimes I have these lapsus Nov 06 19:05:36 Meaning they don't want a totally open OS like OpenMoko is Nov 06 19:05:38 abraxa_: well, only 10% of google developments see the light.. Nov 06 19:06:53 edulix: what do you mean google didn't join android? Nov 06 19:07:07 don: Typo ;) Nov 06 19:07:15 don: mental typo xD Nov 06 19:07:23 BTW I know it's futile, but I have sent an email asking for information to google about why they didn't join openmoko. I don't expect to get much (if any) from it, but I sent it anyway Nov 06 19:07:28 that's what I meant Nov 06 19:08:02 well from my laymen standpoint this is a win win. Nov 06 19:08:21 Google puts all their money behind an open cellphone OS Nov 06 19:08:50 you should be able to buy any phone that supports android and load openmoko correct? Nov 06 19:08:57 Nope Nov 06 19:09:10 any reason? Nov 06 19:09:27 The operators can lock the phones down as much a they want to, and they will Nov 06 19:09:29 there's no reason why we'd be able to run openmoko any easier on any android playform Nov 06 19:09:30 if Android is open they are going to have to use open drivers Nov 06 19:09:35 no Nov 06 19:09:44 they can use as much proprietary stuff as they want Nov 06 19:09:52 open kernel closed drivers? Nov 06 19:10:02 ...and because of the Apache 2 license they don't have to return anything to the OSS community Nov 06 19:10:02 don: ask yourself this question: why google didn't join openmoko? Nov 06 19:10:30 honestly? Nov 06 19:10:33 don: abraxa_ ahs already given what I belive is the most reasonable reason: they don't want to be as open as openmoko is Nov 06 19:10:43 they couldn't control it. Nov 06 19:11:05 exactly Nov 06 19:11:16 obviously, they won't be as open but that doesn't mean you all can't make it open Nov 06 19:11:57 I see apps for openmoko running well on both platforms Nov 06 19:11:59 essentially it'll be possible to put android on an openmoko phone but probably not the other way around Nov 06 19:12:25 don: bit premature to say that knowing nothing about android's API Nov 06 19:12:26 Time will tell Nov 06 19:12:33 True Nov 06 19:12:42 the "apps" on the google phone are likely to have to run on the VM Nov 06 19:12:55 except the "apps" put in by the phone mfg Nov 06 19:13:00 or carrier Nov 06 19:13:03 or google Nov 06 19:13:15 I just figure if openmoko is a hit and gets launched before some of the gPhones it will be a big advantage to make it more open. Nov 06 19:13:48 I don't think google want to preload a bunch of apps Nov 06 19:14:05 they want you to use their calendar, docs, gmail etc. Nov 06 19:14:30 that means a full html browser that supports flash so you can watch their video. Nov 06 19:15:31 if that is their goal then all they have to preload is some bookmarks. Nov 06 19:16:09 and a wallet full of cash to pay for the data :p Nov 06 19:16:30 WifI Nov 06 19:16:39 and better pricing plans Nov 06 19:17:14 That's why At&t and Verizon have already said they won't sell the phones Nov 06 19:17:59 they don't want any open phones. Everything needs to be locked down and you have to use their apps. Nov 06 19:25:11 are there efforts to get parrot running on openmoko? Nov 06 19:26:06 It doesn't even seem to be in oe, but I've heard it mentioned before Nov 06 19:27:15 i remember a discussion on the OM mailing lists months ago, people arguing over what would be THE scripting language for openmoko Nov 06 19:27:48 seems like it's not necessary to narrow it down to one Nov 06 19:28:53 Cool. Let's have a language war. Nov 06 19:29:00 Python is for savages. Nov 06 19:29:06 heh Nov 06 19:29:08 agreed Nov 06 19:30:24 ewon: That's not how you fight a war. Nov 06 19:31:06 everyone knows perl is the best. Nov 06 19:31:29 scripting languages? *cough* ;) Nov 06 19:36:32 how about DOS batch programing? Nov 06 19:36:49 jesus wept Nov 06 19:37:04 At least I'm trying to get the war started! Nov 06 19:38:59 parrot is all about peace and love baby! Nov 06 19:40:50 Imagine all the programming languages, living life in peace. Nov 06 19:41:16 you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one Nov 06 19:44:03 Thanks for the effort, don. Nov 06 19:44:29 But I don't think this channel is contentious enough. Nov 06 19:44:58 I think I'll wander over to ##c, where are the angry people live. Nov 06 19:46:13 I see you hang out in #j2me, should be full of frustration too ;) Nov 06 19:47:43 ##java tends to be a bit ornery IME Nov 06 19:47:52 #j2me is always very polite. Nov 06 19:48:08 ;) Nov 06 19:48:09 Not enough of us to be angry. :-) Nov 06 19:48:23 anyway, the anger is at manufacturers mostly :) Nov 06 19:48:49 ##java is a lot like ##c, people complaining about newbie questions. Nov 06 19:49:18 heh, j2me Nov 06 19:49:19 Don't ask questions until you read all the books and have seven years of experience as a programmer. Nov 06 19:49:21 god I hate it Nov 06 19:50:03 ewon: More than DOS batch programming? Nov 06 19:50:08 * abraxa__ imagines ewon praying at night... "Dear god, I hate j2me. Please make it stop." Nov 06 19:50:39 vb 4 life! Nov 06 19:50:56 * peepsalot slits his wrists Nov 06 19:51:00 forth all the way Nov 06 19:51:17 peepsalot: You're doing it wrong. Slit Bill's. Nov 06 19:51:45 peepsalot: VBA is worse than VB.. Nov 06 19:51:45 Or even better, slit Ballmer's. Nov 06 19:51:55 And APL beats everything, guaranteed Nov 06 19:52:15 whitespace, on paper. Nov 06 19:52:19 hah beat that Nov 06 19:52:22 heh Nov 06 19:52:28 CM i've dabbled in both. used to have to write reports. Using the Access of Evil Nov 06 19:52:41 CM: I dispute... brainfuck is actually worse than APL in my opinion Nov 06 19:52:55 malbogle may just be even worse than brainfuck Nov 06 19:52:56 Though I guess brainfuck isn't really used... Nov 06 19:52:59 abraxa__: Hehe, it is, but I doubt it's used much in production environments Nov 06 19:53:12 Yeah, you win that one :) Nov 06 19:53:12 This time you were faster.. :P Nov 06 19:53:16 lol Nov 06 19:53:20 http://nanoweb.si.kz/manual/mod_bsp.html Nov 06 19:53:26 ohhh the pain Nov 06 19:54:01 rofl... Nov 06 19:54:16 (i actually know the guy who wrote the php interpreter) Nov 06 19:54:59 hmm, I didn't autojoin for some reason Nov 06 19:58:09 seemant: I'm sure it's those damn androids ;) Nov 06 20:01:37 l8tr all Nov 06 20:09:04 CM: Ihate the droids sometimes Nov 06 20:13:29 Android ? Nov 06 20:13:35 yes Nov 06 20:13:49 why so ? Nov 06 20:15:24 coz they diverted me away from this channel Nov 06 20:20:20 hehe Nov 06 20:46:04 <|R> p| : none that i found, it would have to be compiled or extracted from debian archives Nov 06 20:46:08 <|R> oops Nov 06 20:49:18 Guys, what are the chances of my University receiving a dev package? Nov 06 20:49:25 Is there an application process of some sort? Nov 06 20:49:47 you mean for free? Nov 06 20:49:59 Not necessarily Nov 06 20:51:05 Of course it would be easier if it was free. But there is a budget that the tech department has access to, just takes an application. Nov 06 21:01:26 So any info would be appreciated ^^ Nov 06 21:12:37 LordC: Just order a few, it's a cheap embedded dev-kit anyway :) Nov 06 21:14:34 LordC, to receive a dev package, you just have to order one, like everyone else. openmoko.com Nov 06 21:14:55 I didn't know the were available to the public. Thought it was internal dev only atm Nov 06 21:14:58 Thanks Nov 06 21:29:34 LordC: The GTA01 version is availible to all right now, the GTA02 with wifi and other enancements has not been manufactured yet Nov 06 21:29:48 oh Nov 06 21:30:08 * LordC waits with anticipation =] Nov 06 21:30:15 if it hasn't been manufactured yet, how do we know there won't be issues just like there were in GTA01? Nov 06 21:30:53 summatusmentis: They have made some dev-samples that are being tested right now Nov 06 21:31:19 oh, ok, thanks CM Nov 06 21:33:55 * mwester-road notes that they did the same with the GTA01, of course... Nov 06 21:35:03 mwester-road: Yes, but it still seems to be internal devs only, not yet P0 Nov 06 21:35:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_nominees_for_GTA02_P0 Nov 06 21:36:09 mwester-road: Hope you get one :) Nov 06 21:53:01 I'm reading planet.openmoko.org, and it keeps mentioning openmoko being a rebranded angstrom? Nov 06 21:53:10 Yes. Nov 06 21:53:45 why? what's the purpose of having two different distros then? Nov 06 21:53:51 or is it not really? Nov 06 21:55:19 Angstrom is a linux distro that is built with OE; it is intended for small devices such as PDAs. OpenMoko is based on that distro, and should be just a variant (different packages in the base) of that distro. Nov 06 21:55:47 The idea would be that I can then install the same app software on my neo as I could on my PDA or any other device running an Angstrom variant. Nov 06 21:56:01 hrm.. I thought the premise behind Angstrom was that it was all-encompassing Nov 06 21:56:16 summatusmentis: To be precise, Koen keeps mentioning it. Nov 06 21:56:28 Angstrom is Koen's baby. Nov 06 21:56:32 Yup. Nov 06 21:56:45 He just wants to get credit, that's all ;) Nov 06 21:56:50 oh, i see. I just saw it being mentioned Nov 06 21:57:02 In the end it comes down to politics, and not technical issues. Nov 06 21:59:02 * CM likes the name at least, both Å and Ö ;) Nov 06 21:59:39 get a real character encoding :p Nov 06 22:00:43 cjb_ie: I wish, but this screened irssi is runing on SunOS 5.10 Nov 06 22:00:48 is there a finger keyboard in openmoko yet? Nov 06 22:01:14 summatusmentis: Not specifially for fingers Nov 06 22:02:42 Wasn't there a t9 keyboard on planet.openmoko.org today? Nov 06 22:03:36 it's not t9, looks like it's multi-tap Nov 06 22:03:48 it could probably be made to t9 Nov 06 22:04:39 Isn't t9 a type of multi-tap? Nov 06 22:04:57 no, it's predictive text entry Nov 06 22:05:13 It doesn't matter. The one on planet.openmoko.org isn't what you're looking for? Nov 06 22:06:34 I was looking for something like the iphone has, last I heard, that's what I had heard the plan was, like 4 months ago :-D Nov 06 22:06:52 mad, didn't think the iphone was around that long Nov 06 22:07:33 well, no, but the keyboard was known about Nov 06 22:07:50 I had thought there were plans for a touch qwerty keyboard Nov 06 22:08:38 I think the full on screen keyboard OM has now could be adapted just by removing a lot of the keys. Nov 06 22:09:11 I don't know how the iPhone handles it, but moving the lesser-used keys to a shift screen would work. Nov 06 22:09:31 I think the multi-tap looks cool, though. Can't wait to try it on a real phone. Nov 06 22:09:44 Are there any images with that built in? Nov 06 22:10:31 I wish I had OE setup :-/ Nov 06 22:10:42 i tried qtopia yesterday and after getting a clue, how it works, i was amazed by theis input-keyboard :) Nov 06 22:11:04 can we steal it? Nov 06 22:11:48 "Steal" is such an ugly word. Nov 06 22:12:14 ok, can we integrate it, as per open source poilcy? Nov 06 22:12:33 sounds better ;-) Nov 06 22:13:35 I used qtopia on the neo but I don't remember anything amazing about the keyboard Nov 06 22:13:43 and I can't find a screen shot. Nov 06 22:13:52 What did you like about it? Nov 06 22:14:20 there are gestures to do space, backspace Nov 06 22:14:28 and to switch between keyboards Nov 06 22:14:36 one with important chars Nov 06 22:14:42 one with capitals :) Nov 06 22:14:50 and one with special chars Nov 06 22:15:12 easy and quick to switchbetween, quick to use, fast typing Nov 06 22:15:46 it gives also suggestions like t9 from the chars you have entered so far Nov 06 22:15:59 is there a way to test, at least some of OM on a zaurus? Nov 06 22:22:33 see that touch keyboard that is "haptic" makes sounds/motion to make you think you are interacting with physical keyboard? Nov 06 22:23:10 They need to make the screen feel like newspaper when you touch it Nov 06 22:23:14 http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/11/06/nokias-haptikos-tact.html Nov 06 22:23:21 but only if you're reading RSS feeds. Nov 06 22:23:52 dread: glad you like it. its called 'Predictive Keyboard' Nov 06 22:24:48 that's the kind of keyboard I thought people were working on implementing :-D Nov 06 22:26:05 summatusmentis, you can emulate it you know Nov 06 22:26:14 OM that is Nov 06 22:26:56 enjahova: I did know that, but I don't have OE set up... I'm just slow Nov 06 22:27:05 i see Nov 06 22:33:48 anyone have a prebuilt kernel for the ARM1136EJ-S processor aka TI OMAP2420 or the MSM7500 Nov 06 22:43:58 Hello all Nov 06 22:44:15 ahoy Nov 06 22:44:38 How goes Abraxa? Nov 06 22:45:05 row-row-rowing my boat as always! Nov 06 22:45:34 HEHE I guessed that. The best part of boats to me, is the drinkin! Nov 06 22:46:49 You know I can't help but wonder why the Neo1973 doesn't have 3G support, wifi, or BT Nov 06 22:47:21 GTA02 will have wifi, and i thought BT Nov 06 22:47:53 both have bt Nov 06 22:48:29 Hmm, I think I am looking at old information then, my bad Nov 06 22:55:36 Sean has been so silent the past few months. I hope he will write about the 850 mhz issue Nov 06 22:57:32 hey all Nov 06 22:57:33 This is my 1st time here, what problems is going on with 850MHz? Nov 06 22:57:37 Hello Bryce Nov 06 22:58:07 It's broken in hardwarte and will not be fixed sodawater . Nov 06 22:58:15 hey sodawater Nov 06 22:58:19 Also will not be present in GTA02 Nov 06 22:58:30 guys, the december lunch will be world wide? Nov 06 22:58:32 SpeedEvil: what happened with the hardware? Nov 06 22:58:48 BryceLeo: mis-specified, or the OM team got something wrong Nov 06 22:59:16 SpeedEvil, ugh, and a chipset change is def not possible Nov 06 22:59:24 how many regions do we lose with no 850 coverage? Nov 06 22:59:27 it's not about the chipset Nov 06 22:59:34 BryceLeo: apparantly large fractions of the US. Nov 06 22:59:41 The chipset can do it. Nov 06 22:59:45 The board can't. Nov 06 22:59:50 oh... Nov 06 22:59:54 well that blows..... Nov 06 22:59:59 This doesn't bode well. Nov 06 23:00:04 and i'm in the US..... Nov 06 23:00:13 Indeed :/ Nov 06 23:00:16 However. Nov 06 23:00:26 I am worried that people will abandon Openmoko for the Gphone Nov 06 23:00:29 I'm only basing 'large portions' on lurking on IRC. Nov 06 23:00:44 I may be wrong, and it's one or two people it happened to affect badly Nov 06 23:01:12 sodawater: can't really comment till the full release is made on what android is. Nov 06 23:02:06 Did anyone see the FSJ blog about gPhone? Nov 06 23:02:10 Yeah SpeedEvil, right now it's a lot more speculation than fact Nov 06 23:02:36 Ozarka do you have a link by chance? Nov 06 23:02:39 http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/11/its-not-phone-its-alliance.html Nov 06 23:03:26 "When you're redoing your kitchen, and you're choosing appliances, do you go out looking for some consortium devoted to food temperature management and environmental control technology? No. You go looking for a refrigerator." Nov 06 23:03:37 a couple questings is the gphone going to run linux is it going to be gsm and is the GTA02 really going to have worse reception in the US? Nov 06 23:04:17 you never know what's gonna happen, if that platform blows as much as open social or whatever we'll be fine Nov 06 23:04:36 damn tor, i can't get on anyother way and there are apparently not mnany good nodes in my area Nov 06 23:06:14 I think the 850 thing is worse than the gPhone announcement. Nov 06 23:06:30 it's certainly worse for US people Nov 06 23:06:38 It's pointless to speculate. Nov 06 23:06:42 yeah.... i was really looking forward to it too Nov 06 23:06:55 But pointless speculation is what IRC was built for. Nov 06 23:07:02 i thought GTA02 was only in prototype atm and a respin was inevitable before the release? Nov 06 23:07:04 Gphone is almost certainly not going to be very open, even if the base system is Nov 06 23:07:30 cjb_ie, actually everyone hopes, that this was the last rev ;) Nov 06 23:07:31 Agreed Ozarka! Nov 06 23:07:32 is gphone a synonym for android platform? Nov 06 23:07:33 it's going to get locked by the carrier, it'll be an enormous hassle Nov 06 23:07:38 worst case; OM dies and we'll flash android on the neos Nov 06 23:07:45 The press release says gPhone will be "truly open". Nov 06 23:08:35 ozarka, it's emphasized in the FAQs how the manufacturers will be able to lock and limit the phones down as much as they like Nov 06 23:08:56 Google is likely to do that itself for the Gphone, since they want to force-feed you ads Nov 06 23:09:12 google has to get it popular first Nov 06 23:09:25 (and as ozarka said, pointless at this point, yes) Nov 06 23:09:25 ads will be in browser Nov 06 23:09:26 guaqua: It's android. No one from google has called it gphone. Nov 06 23:09:36 MS has a patent in "operating system lever advertisements" Nov 06 23:09:37 BryceLe1: google has to get it popular first <---- Ummm wait, what? Nov 06 23:09:49 And android is actually openhandheldalliance or whatever. Nov 06 23:10:10 sodawater: they should have some big press conf or something to drum up some interest. Nov 06 23:10:24 They might even get a few tics on their stock price if the timing is good. Nov 06 23:10:54 I wish they would say "here's the phone this is why it rocks, you can start crying now Apple" Nov 06 23:11:00 very true, however the platform has to get out there and established then they can ruin it Nov 06 23:11:20 BTW, there are actual google employees in #android. Nov 06 23:11:22 it'll be interesting to see if it's as hackable as the iphone Nov 06 23:11:36 i'm guessing it will be Nov 06 23:11:56 what % of interlusers actually aggressively block ads Nov 06 23:12:12 They won't say much, but you can poke at them. Nov 06 23:12:17 quick, introduce vulns into the common code before phone co's use it Nov 06 23:12:24 i'm sure google & co. have factored in a small number to tuners, tweakers, and hackers Nov 06 23:12:40 HEHE I use a lynx browser and BitchX for IRC ;) I don't worry about adds to much Nov 06 23:12:45 ... i don't think 850 is gonna matter much for the US Nov 06 23:12:55 i have an anal-retentive restrictive razr... but that's ok Nov 06 23:13:03 http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/CoverageFaq.aspx#3 Nov 06 23:13:08 all i use it for is a small phone with decent battery that fits in my pocket Nov 06 23:13:15 ckuethe, My razr is so "non stock" it's not funny Nov 06 23:13:23 lol cjb_ie you're evil Nov 06 23:13:42 i'm not sure whether i'd mod my phone into next tuesday or if i'd just use it as a phone Nov 06 23:13:54 i've never really got into PDAs and things Nov 06 23:15:10 mine's not a PDA, but it's unlocked, it has only one theme, when it rings it has 3-4 lights that flash *party lights* Nov 06 23:16:43 i just mean the ... personal information appliance ... thing Nov 06 23:16:51 my phone is a phone. that's it Nov 06 23:17:02 my gps is a gps. that's it. Nov 06 23:17:19 my laptop runs all the big apps Nov 06 23:17:20 my phone is a computer. that's it :) Nov 06 23:17:57 every time i try a blackberry or top-of-the-line nokia it's cool for about 10 minutes then i start running into walls as i ask too much of it Nov 06 23:18:19 ckuethe: So what interests you about OM? Nov 06 23:18:42 If you just use your phone as a phone and nothing else. Nov 06 23:19:00 What I would love is to have a UMPC that has skype so my pc would by my phone, my pc would be my PC, and also I could open it up and use it as a normal PC with the wifi Nov 06 23:19:08 brb Nov 06 23:19:20 * mjr flushes skype Nov 06 23:19:36 once again, i'm gonna try the integrated information appliance thing... maybe this time it won't suck Nov 06 23:19:49 also, i'm hoping for voice privacy Nov 06 23:20:47 I have to go into the bathroom and shut the door for voice privacy. Nov 06 23:21:49 you call farting 'voice'? Nov 07 00:00:07 hi there. Nov 07 00:22:14 hmm.. rain... Nov 07 00:23:20 hehe Nov 07 00:26:23 zecke: you should try to get down under sometime Nov 07 00:26:34 ljp: hehe Nov 07 00:26:47 ljp: I should try to be home before 2 am tonight Nov 07 00:27:11 ya.. i remember those times.... Nov 07 00:44:30 Hey, I found something useful... http://www.secondrotation.com/ Nov 07 01:30:37 so OpenMoko is going to use E17 or is that already the case? Nov 07 01:34:31 is it? i don't think so Nov 07 01:34:50 i mean i don't thing E17 is ever going to be the default Nov 07 01:34:54 *think Nov 07 01:36:00 balrog-kun: did you see this? http://marc.info/?l=enlightenment-devel&m=119433626331033&w=2 Nov 07 01:36:15 the E guy is working for OpenMoko now Nov 07 01:36:32 and he says they want E for OpenMoko Nov 07 01:37:41 it's probably gonna be available as one possible WM/toolkit/whaever but i don't think it's going to be the default Nov 07 01:38:11 most openmoko ui people i know love gtk too much :) Nov 07 01:39:47 maybe, but E17 can provide iPhone like interfaces pretty easily and few memory usage, maybe that's what FIC wants or something Nov 07 01:40:53 and gtk can't? Nov 07 01:41:31 also i don't think being like iPhone is a convincing argument for openmoko, i think they want to rather be completely different Nov 07 01:41:52 but yes, E17 may be a good choice, but personally i don't think it will be the default Nov 07 01:42:21 they want to be more open than iphone, that's not too difficult :), but I guess they like the dynamic UI Nov 07 01:42:48 anyway, all this is just guessing from the E post on the ML, it seems pretty serious Nov 07 01:44:07 the author of that mail may actually be online somewhere here.. Nov 07 01:46:30 *sniff* Nov 07 01:46:58 if he's in australia he might be lunching right now :) Nov 07 02:36:10 what window manager does openmoko use? Nov 07 02:36:47 afaik, it's based on gpe? Nov 07 02:37:02 matchbox Nov 07 02:37:27 right, that one! :-) Nov 07 02:37:52 Robot101 ! Nov 07 02:38:22 we were playing with moko finger scroll lists over in our mobile internet device world Nov 07 02:38:47 but we had a challenge getting our touchscreens to work with it and double-click too Nov 07 02:39:34 matchbox has a 200ms double click timeout and that conflicts with our settings for the evtouch driver. Nov 07 02:39:41 I thought maybe you guys had similar problems Nov 07 02:48:36 I was wondering if anyone here uses Rogers wireless in Edmonton...Just wondering how the 850 vs 1900 coverage is there :) Nov 07 02:49:14 xaid: yo Nov 07 02:49:26 my gta01 doesn't work downtown Nov 07 02:49:42 ckuethe: that sucks :/ i thought there was a 1900 tower close to downtown Nov 07 02:50:17 where does it work? north/south/west/east ? i live on the north part, in St. Albert basically Nov 07 02:50:33 there may be one in edmonton, but i don't know where it is. Nov 07 02:50:42 call rogers and ask... Nov 07 02:50:49 though you're probably rogered. Nov 07 02:51:13 i'll probably get a clueless level 1 support person who wont know what im asking :D Nov 07 02:52:03 where does your phone work ? which part of edmonton... Nov 07 02:52:46 i only tried it downtown, and it didn't work Nov 07 02:52:54 * ckuethe whips out the razr and dials 611 Nov 07 02:53:48 let me know what they say...im looking for a tower map of edmonton right now, i should've bookmarked it the last time i saw it Nov 07 02:56:40 ckuethe: http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html Nov 07 02:57:26 i should've kept my old nokia Nov 07 02:57:55 could've used gnokii and gpsd to do something like kismet Nov 07 02:58:09 hm. that would be a fun hack - a kismet module to plot cell sites Nov 07 02:59:20 that'd actually be cool, create a map of the different cell tower locations Nov 07 02:59:45 looks like there are a few 1900 towers in downtown, a few 850 as well **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Nov 07 02:59:57 2007