**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 09 02:59:57 2007 Nov 09 03:00:28 * xzcvczx smacks the living sheesus out of unknown_lamer Nov 09 03:01:00 xzcvczx: my beard gives me a +30 AC Nov 09 03:01:07 i.e. you pretty much can't hit me Nov 09 03:01:11 mwhahahaa **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 09 03:08:23 2007 Nov 09 03:15:38 unknown_lamer: heres an idea, get a life Nov 09 03:17:57 xzcvczx: I have one Nov 09 03:18:36 it involves a lot of epic poetry, an imposing beard, and bicycling in the middle of the night Nov 09 06:12:42 so, er, I've been reading the mailing lists and is lack of 850mhz now absolutely final? Nov 09 06:13:00 I though michael had mentioned possibility of looking into changing things? Nov 09 06:14:05 initially the GTA02 will probably only be available in a non-850 version, but I don't think anybody has said yet that they will not try to get a 850 instead of 900 version (or somehow switchable) as well Nov 09 06:14:27 bugger Nov 09 06:14:58 the sucky thing is, I can't even figure out if 1900mhz would be enough where I am :/ Nov 09 06:15:34 just out of curiosity, where are you? Nov 09 06:16:00 vancouver, bc, ca Nov 09 06:16:36 the gsm maps just say the same as the US, which is sketchy :/ Nov 09 06:16:40 hmm :-/ Nov 09 06:16:46 I'd need something more local :/ Nov 09 06:17:42 1900 MHz seems to be fine here in Phoenix with TMobile Nov 09 06:17:45 can you call your carriers? Nov 09 06:17:56 yeah, but it pretty much depends on where you are Nov 09 06:18:03 yeah, might have to do that Nov 09 06:18:42 hmmm Nov 09 06:18:42 Awsome 1900mhz Vancouver coverage. Nov 09 06:18:47 according to one web post Nov 09 06:18:52 sweet! Nov 09 06:18:59 "Just don't leave Vancouver/Victoria/Whistler/Nanaimo/USA coverage area. " Nov 09 06:19:01 works for me Nov 09 06:19:07 I have another phone anyway Nov 09 06:59:59 Oh gods, I think I'm going to be sick. Nov 09 07:00:15 There's a banner ad on Makezine.com saying "You can do more when your phone runs Windows." Nov 09 07:00:23 That's what I'm afraid of! Nov 09 07:00:33 I don't WANT my phone to be part of a botnet! Nov 09 07:01:45 hahaha Nov 09 07:03:51 hehe Nov 09 07:27:35 roh: you around?? Nov 09 07:29:18 ~seen roh Nov 09 07:29:31 * CM pokes apt Nov 09 07:29:44 roh is currently on #oe (1d 3h 17m 31s) #openmoko (1d 3h 17m 31s). Has said a total of 12 messages. Is idling for 17h 36m 9s, last said: 'doh'. Nov 09 07:29:57 Hehe Nov 09 07:32:57 gah Nov 09 07:33:05 ~thump roh Nov 09 07:33:06 * apt thumps roh in the ear with a brick! Nov 09 07:33:21 good apt Nov 09 07:36:53 hi! I've got a problem with the moko makefile. if i do make openmoko-devel-image I get this error: Nov 09 07:37:30 mtn: misuse: layout of database /media/data/moko/OE.mtn doesn't match this version of monotone Nov 09 07:37:30 mtn: misuse: wanted schema ae196843d368d042f475e3dadfed11e9d7f9f01e, got 629da44000ed5d20e2fe6b4d3abc06bc06a91362 Nov 09 07:37:30 mtn: misuse: try 'mtn db migrate' to upgrade Nov 09 07:37:52 if I perform an upgrade it says: Nov 09 07:37:53 mtn: calculating necessary migration steps Nov 09 07:37:53 mtn: error: database schema 629da44000ed5d20e2fe6b4d3abc06bc06a91362 is unknown; cannot perform migration Nov 09 07:37:58 whats wrong? Nov 09 07:38:06 do I have to delete everything? Nov 09 07:38:17 Hmm.. If any oe people are awake they should know Nov 09 07:38:27 josch: No, you shouldn't have to delete Nov 09 07:38:47 What if you do an make update? Nov 09 07:39:29 ah sry... its not while make openmoko-devel-image - this error comes up when doing make update Nov 09 07:39:49 Ah, ok. Did you try mtn --db OE.mtn db migrate Nov 09 07:40:02 I said so Nov 09 07:40:16 Yes, but with the --db argument? Nov 09 07:40:21 yes Nov 09 07:40:25 mtn: calculating necessary migration steps Nov 09 07:40:25 mtn: error: database schema 629da44000ed5d20e2fe6b4d3abc06bc06a91362 is unknown; cannot perform migration Nov 09 07:40:25 Hmm.. Nov 09 07:40:41 I'll update now and see if I can get it Nov 09 07:40:48 CM, thx Nov 09 07:42:44 josch: No problems here.. Nov 09 07:43:00 CM, thx Nov 09 07:43:14 CM, have an idea how I can solve it? Nov 09 07:43:28 It updated to target 8273cc86b0f6dd127b175c16eae89d1f0bdadfa3 for me Nov 09 07:43:47 Ask in #oe or wait until someone who knows more about bitbake shows up here Nov 09 07:44:02 okay Nov 09 07:44:14 I'd say XorA|gone, hrw|gone, rwhitby or koen knows Nov 09 07:44:25 great! I'll wait then Nov 09 07:44:30 Probably Writchie|zzzZZzz and mwester too Nov 09 07:44:40 deleting my environment can wait a little longer Nov 09 07:45:10 It's probably some simple command. Maybe look around in the oe wiki would give something Nov 09 07:45:28 Also, paste the full error log in a pastebin so you can show it later :) Nov 09 07:45:31 k will try that Nov 09 07:52:46 CM: hence why i love wgetpaste Nov 09 07:53:15 ~apt smack-the-living-crap-out-of roh Nov 09 07:54:51 XorA, ping Nov 09 07:56:14 josch: pong Nov 09 07:56:44 XorA, can you quickly look over a problem I'm currently having with mokomakefile? Nov 09 07:57:09 josch: Im not a MokoMakefile user Nov 09 07:57:17 ah, sry to bother you Nov 09 07:57:28 It's a monotone issue Nov 09 07:57:42 but do you know about monotone Nov 09 07:57:59 datebase version errors` Nov 09 07:58:14 I pasted it here for review: http://pastebin.ca/766901 Nov 09 07:58:22 looks like MokoMakefile got the wrong version of monotone/database combo Nov 09 07:58:45 thought that but it works with CM Nov 09 07:59:13 CM, did you only do make update or a full make update-makefile && make setup update openmoko-devel-image ? Nov 09 07:59:27 A full Nov 09 07:59:35 make all at the end even Nov 09 07:59:57 CM, make what even? Nov 09 08:00:05 which monotone do you have on your machine? Nov 09 08:00:09 "make all", builds the full feed Nov 09 08:00:17 0.31 Nov 09 08:02:08 what happens if you do mtn --version Nov 09 08:02:36 I'm getting monotone 0.36 (base revision: e4bc808d89e029ce623f9e8f2b10c84006b83fb5) Nov 09 08:03:11 okay, then I should update monotone Nov 09 08:03:39 monotone 0.31 (base revision: 1bd1fe1e811dce82bee09b9f0effca3225bd1cee) Nov 09 08:04:16 josch: I just took a look at MokoMakefile source and that should have downloaded the right OE.db for that monotone version Nov 09 08:05:08 so it's not about my monotone version because it already downloads the right database for my version? Nov 09 08:05:51 josch: it "should" have downloaded the right version, it looks like it didnt. Nov 09 08:06:18 can I do this manually? Nov 09 08:06:47 yes, grab the 0.31 version from http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/ Nov 09 08:07:02 and rename it to OE.mtn in right place for MokoMakefile Nov 09 08:07:08 okay Nov 09 08:07:30 but then I'm no longer allowed to run make update - is this okay? Nov 09 08:07:36 CM, ? Nov 09 08:10:42 jupp, md5 says they are different files Nov 09 08:13:08 I will simply do everything make update do manually - should work then Nov 09 08:16:12 Just tried running mtn --db=OE.mtn pull monotone.openembedded.org org.openembedded.dev Nov 09 08:16:16 Works fine Nov 09 08:16:21 CM, what happend? Nov 09 08:16:36 Gt all the revisions and stuff Nov 09 08:16:38 got Nov 09 08:17:21 this command produces further errors for me Nov 09 08:17:28 Strange Nov 09 08:17:40 How did this happen from the start? Nov 09 08:17:56 ah - one moment Nov 09 08:18:10 I think its a little permissions problem Nov 09 08:18:18 :) Nov 09 08:18:33 that occured when downloading OE.mtn with wget Nov 09 08:19:26 okay seems to work now Nov 09 08:19:33 with manually downloaded db Nov 09 08:25:54 "executing external 3-way merge command" <= the file that opens contains nothing - how can I merge then? Nov 09 08:27:44 maybe select one target? 8273cc86b0f6dd127b175c16eae89d1f0bdadfa3 is what I got automaticly Nov 09 08:31:16 josch: cd build; mtn revert . Nov 09 08:31:34 I don't think you have local changes you want to kee[ Nov 09 08:31:36 keep Nov 09 08:31:56 abraxa_, mtn: misuse: workspace required but not found Nov 09 08:34:20 josch: source ../setup-env Nov 09 08:34:57 roflmao ... I have 7500 'points' on my amex card, so I take a look at what I can get for that.... Nov 09 08:35:08 a box of chocolates... Nov 09 08:36:07 ScaredyCat, this sounds like the points you get for travelling with deutsche bahn AG - one point for each euro you spend on a ticket. I collected 1500 points and get a free coffee Nov 09 08:36:38 josch: Hehe Nov 09 08:37:45 abraxa_, please explain Nov 09 08:37:47 oh well... :( Nov 09 08:40:46 josch: cd build && . ../setup-env && mtn revert . Nov 09 08:41:09 josch: Seems like you've made changes to the mtn repositores, and that revert command should get you back to the normal oe/om version Nov 09 08:41:15 ScaredyCat: heh, I thought by points you meant penalty points, like when you get caught speeding Nov 09 08:41:38 did that but only get this error: Nov 09 08:41:40 "mtn: misuse: workspace required but not found Nov 09 08:41:40 " Nov 09 08:41:44 na.. but that would be cool.... get a coffee maker for doing a tonne Nov 09 08:42:53 * ScaredyCat slasp self and abraxa_ Nov 09 08:42:55 yes Nov 09 08:43:08 cd ${OMDIR} Nov 09 08:43:25 cd openembedded && mtn revert . Nov 09 08:43:45 are you using the Mokomakefile ? Nov 09 08:44:02 ScaredyCat, yes, I'm using the makefile Nov 09 08:44:20 so you can just do a: make update Nov 09 08:44:29 and it will revert stuff too Nov 09 08:44:40 ScaredyCat, make update produces another monotone error I described above Nov 09 08:44:46 http://pastebin.ca/766901 Nov 09 08:45:42 ScaredyCat, this reverts my changes, thx Nov 09 09:06:56 good morning Nov 09 09:08:05 yo Nov 09 09:10:39 just an idea, how about providing a meta-package for debian/ubuntu etc to install the packages needed for openmoko development on openembedded? Nov 09 09:35:41 ScaredyCat: ow... and thanks. lol. Nov 09 09:36:04 I should stop trying to think so early in the morning Nov 09 09:36:26 not enough coffee :) Nov 09 09:38:17 I don't do coffee ;) Nov 09 09:38:31 that'll be why then :P Nov 09 09:41:46 why do ppl insist that we begin work at 8 in the fucking morning Nov 09 09:42:06 * ScaredyCat started at 7 :( Nov 09 09:42:13 I say started.... Nov 09 09:42:16 because its a good time to start working Nov 09 09:42:23 I sat naked in front of my laptop at 7 Nov 09 09:42:24 :P Nov 09 09:42:30 * zash overslept to ~9 Nov 09 09:44:05 haha Nov 09 09:44:32 "behaga göra säker den här är sättet i stÃ¥nd till pÃ¥ din servaren" Nov 09 09:45:40 zash: Hehe Nov 09 09:46:08 zash: is that some sort of fake swedish? Nov 09 09:46:21 i totally fail to parse it Nov 09 09:46:36 some weird translation in cubecart Nov 09 09:46:44 belongs something> the ?? are satisfied i stand until the server serves you.."? Nov 09 09:47:11 hurrrdy gurrdy fluurrdy Nov 09 09:47:20 ^^^ pure Swedish Nov 09 09:47:30 somehow relatet to 'allow GIF-support' Nov 09 09:47:31 ScaredyCat: you forgot the obligatory bork Nov 09 09:47:35 *related Nov 09 09:47:35 I learned it from the puppet show Nov 09 09:47:42 bork bork Nov 09 09:47:48 s/puppet/muppet/ Nov 09 09:47:49 ScaredyCat meant: I learned it from the muppet show Nov 09 10:00:14 oh noes, im converting to ubuntu! Nov 09 10:00:21 from ? Nov 09 10:00:22 ScaredyCat: when you said run windows in a vm Nov 09 10:00:24 windows Nov 09 10:00:30 which vm? Nov 09 10:00:32 rock Nov 09 10:00:34 vmware Nov 09 10:00:45 I'm just backing up my windows shit now, then my work laptop will be all ubuntu! Nov 09 10:00:46 yeah, vmware - tis free Nov 09 10:00:51 right. Nov 09 10:01:06 use vmware to make an image of your existing windows system first .. Nov 09 10:01:12 that way you can easily use it. Nov 09 10:01:16 and not have to reinstall, etc. Nov 09 10:03:32 torpor: i've got ghost images Nov 09 10:03:39 and the hdd isnt big enough for that Nov 09 10:04:19 Only thing i *need* windows for is a program called IBS Inventar which is the inventory for pretty much all machines and shit on server and whatnot, and remote desktop to the win2k3 server, but that i can do from linux too so Nov 09 10:04:29 Other then that it's not needed Nov 09 10:04:44 on service* Nov 09 10:05:53 so i'l just run a clean windows install in vmware, with only that program (or alternatively just run wine) Nov 09 10:07:00 i talk alot about shit nobody cares about dont i? o_0 Nov 09 10:14:18 flexd: We all talk mostly shit :P Nov 09 10:15:14 CM: hehe Nov 09 10:15:15 http://www.iphone.de <-- lol Nov 09 10:15:23 but bbs, gotta ghost my machine and install ubuntu :< Nov 09 10:16:16 fgau: Hehe Nov 09 10:22:20 heheheh Nov 09 10:33:06 Heh, got a mail from a german friend with direct translations of german sayings: http://www.acc.umu.se/~cm/german_translated.txt Nov 09 10:37:15 CM: lol Nov 09 10:37:25 CM: Would've been funnier if he had added proper translations ;) Nov 09 10:37:36 I'm sure non-Germans wonder what those sentences mean Nov 09 10:38:44 looks like babelfish Nov 09 10:40:13 CM: acc! Nov 09 10:43:01 zash: Since 1999 ;) Nov 09 10:43:28 abraxa_: I don't think she did them herself ;) Nov 09 10:46:29 oh Nov 09 10:47:05 We have some good ones in sweden too.. Nov 09 10:47:20 "There's no danger on the roof" - (Ingen fara på taket) Nov 09 10:48:23 Clock-clean! Nov 09 10:48:29 Hehe Nov 09 10:52:57 Ok, this should be in OpenMoko too: http://gameinfowire.com/news.asp?nid=11277 Nov 09 10:54:02 * ScaredyCat really liked simcity Nov 09 10:54:34 Hmm Nov 09 10:54:38 Seems... odd to me Nov 09 10:55:15 I mean... children in the countries that OLPC was created for won't know what some of those things are that players handle in sim city Nov 09 10:55:26 They won't recognize the structures either Nov 09 10:55:50 It's an educational tool! Nov 09 10:55:54 well, they can actually be taught abraxa_ Nov 09 10:56:13 i mean it doesn't take long to explain waht a train is.. Nov 09 10:56:30 it's for 3rd world countries, not stupid people Nov 09 10:56:35 Seems like it's been a slow negotiation: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/games/2007-March/000009.html Nov 09 10:56:36 Of course Nov 09 10:57:58 Renovating Sim City... okay, that could be more beneficial then Nov 09 11:11:45 yay i have linux! Nov 09 11:11:48 sort of Nov 09 11:13:19 hello Nov 09 11:13:44 hi Nov 09 11:15:27 hi, ist jemand anwesend? Nov 09 11:15:31 Ich habe ein Problem. Nov 09 11:15:45 Habe gestern Opensuse 10.3 installiert und nun funktioniert der Sound nicht. Nov 09 11:15:54 torsten252: a dziekuje, u mnie w porzadku wszystko Nov 09 11:16:02 Habe ein Asus K7S8X Board mit Onboard Sounkarte Nov 09 11:16:12 Do you speak english? Nov 09 11:16:13 torsten252: täällä ei selvitellä yksittäisten linux-distrojen ääniongelmia Nov 09 11:17:02 torsten252: you should look for suse-specific irc channels for help Nov 09 11:17:29 Hello Everybody Nov 09 11:17:33 hello Nov 09 11:17:51 Hi. Nov 09 11:17:56 I updated openmoko via http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/images/fic-gta01/20071105/ Nov 09 11:18:12 Flashing process was sucessful Nov 09 11:18:31 raddy: angstrom images are not openmoko Nov 09 11:18:45 but they should also work Nov 09 11:19:21 rebooted and new Angstrom started, but, after bootsplash, it switched to text mode and showed an error Nov 09 11:20:38 and you expect us to tell you how to fix it without telling us what the error was? Nov 09 11:20:42 Or, does anybody know if Dialer fixes have been merged into openmoko from Anfstrom ? Nov 09 11:22:44 does anybody know if Dialer fixes have been merged into openmoko from Anfstrom ? Nov 09 11:25:42 Which dialer fixes? Nov 09 11:26:00 And Angstrom doesn't have a dialer ;) Nov 09 11:26:20 abraxa_: it has Nov 09 11:26:32 Which? Nov 09 11:26:39 openmoko-dialer2 Nov 09 11:27:04 Well yeah, but it's in there because of the OM feed so I don't count it towards Angstrom itself Nov 09 11:27:10 no Nov 09 11:27:21 No? Nov 09 11:27:25 all openmoko stuff is also built for angstrom Nov 09 11:27:38 i think most folks won't read http://planet.openmoko.org/ Nov 09 11:27:39 Hmm... Nov 09 11:27:42 http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/ - search for openmoko Nov 09 11:28:45 hrw : do you know about the current dialer status of openmoko? Nov 09 11:28:59 In that case I don't understand why all OM apps get built for Angstrom when Angstrom is supposed to be a generic distribution Nov 09 11:29:58 abraxa_: Angstrom distro supports most of OE devices Nov 09 11:30:02 also fic-gta01 Nov 09 11:30:18 abraxa : Angstorm is i think the developer distro, Nov 09 11:30:59 abraxa : i mean they would install it in their desktops Nov 09 11:31:02 hrw: Supports, yes, but I didn't think it would include all OM apps by default Nov 09 11:31:18 checked in feed browser? Nov 09 11:32:03 hrw: Sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to tell me :) Nov 09 11:32:12 09 12:28 < hrw> http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/ - search for openmoko Nov 09 11:32:25 Yes, and? Nov 09 11:33:09 I think we're just misunderstanding each other Nov 09 11:34:20 probably Nov 09 11:34:34 What I meant was that the dialer that you can use with Angstrom belongs to OpenMoko - not to Angstrom itself Nov 09 11:34:52 and glibc does not belong to any of them so? Nov 09 11:35:49 Alright, beat me ;) Nov 09 11:35:50 if software is in OE then it sooner or later lands in angstrom feeds Nov 09 11:36:20 multi-tap pad looks nice Nov 09 11:36:22 one of rules in OE is "any device should be usable with any distro" Nov 09 11:37:30 what's a device? Nov 09 11:37:40 * cjb_ie holds up a banana and demands it run OE ;-) Nov 09 11:38:50 * ScaredyCat eats the banana Nov 09 11:39:01 nooo! i was going to steal it! Nov 09 11:39:05 bastard! ;) Nov 09 11:39:12 hrw : so, do you conclude that dialer fixes have been merged? Nov 09 11:43:08 raddy: which fixes? Nov 09 11:45:14 hrw : http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-progress Nov 09 11:45:50 man i wish someone would fix the power issue Nov 09 11:45:59 * torpor is sick of waiting an hour to work on his openmoko .. Nov 09 11:47:48 raddy: yes it is done Nov 09 11:49:00 hrw : ohh, wowww Nov 09 11:49:31 hrw : can specify the snapshot date ?? Nov 09 11:49:39 no Nov 09 11:50:00 install openmoko, connect to internet, ipkg update, ipkg upgrade Nov 09 11:54:30 ~seen roh Nov 09 11:54:37 roh is currently on #oe (1d 7h 42m 24s) #openmoko (1d 7h 42m 24s). Has said a total of 12 messages. Is idling for 22h 1m 2s, last said: 'doh'. Nov 09 11:54:37 !seen roh Nov 09 11:54:38 xzcvczx, roh is right here! Nov 09 11:54:51 stfu cdbot2 Nov 09 11:54:56 hehe Nov 09 11:55:10 ~smack cdbot2 Nov 09 11:55:11 * apt smacks cdbot2 upside the head. Nov 09 11:56:06 * xzcvczx thinks it would be rather amusing if they both had retaliation scripts attached to them and we just got a apt smacks cdbot2, cdbot2 smacks apt for the next 20hrs til someone killed one of them Nov 09 11:58:58 hahah Nov 09 11:59:25 ;D Nov 09 11:59:29 botwar Nov 09 12:01:21 pity we werent first to register #android..... put them in there with op status Nov 09 12:01:34 no you hang up, no you hang up,........... Nov 09 12:03:13 * ScaredyCat teases #andriod Nov 09 12:03:48 * CM echoes: ScaredyCat has left #android ["in a cloud of vapourware"] Nov 09 12:04:13 CM: you traitor Nov 09 12:04:24 I'm a spy! :P Nov 09 12:04:28 no triator]\ Nov 09 12:04:32 as is Writchie|zzzZZzz Nov 09 12:04:49 But those googlers won't say anything useful.-. Nov 09 12:08:46 there's nothing to say.... Nov 09 12:08:51 until 12th Nov 09 12:26:23 ScaredyCat: Sure there is, since they know already, they're just not saying it yet.. :( Nov 09 12:47:17 hi Nov 09 12:56:32 I wonder why chumby can't be sold outside the us Nov 09 13:00:29 it's a munition. Nov 09 13:01:23 Details on SimCity for the olpc: http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=354795&cid=21290445 Nov 09 13:01:43 Should be nice to have an openmoko front end for it too Nov 09 13:04:01 what's the article root? Nov 09 13:06:23 hello - is anyone experiencing a build problem where certain packages are not getting their SRCREV set properly (being defaulted to 1) ? Nov 09 13:09:31 LOL!!!!! Nov 09 13:09:32 http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/politica/mastella-elastico/ Nov 09 13:09:47 FORBIDDEN Nov 09 13:09:47 You haven't authorization for this area Nov 09 13:09:59 this is our minister of the Justice Nov 09 13:10:20 now i feel really safe: he captured the evil elastic Nov 09 14:04:17 anyone know how to get that AGPS app running? Nov 09 14:04:37 torpor: you will need the gllin binary running in a chroot Nov 09 14:05:05 and i saw something about a wrapper Nov 09 14:07:01 but where is the app itself? Nov 09 14:07:40 * ScaredyCat points to my repo Nov 09 14:08:10 his Nov 09 14:08:35 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=171 Nov 09 14:08:47 i don't see it in your repo Nov 09 14:09:49 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/packages/armv4t/openmoko-agpsu........ Nov 09 14:10:09 gneeh! Nov 09 14:10:13 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/packages/armv4t/openmoko-agpsui2_0.1.0+svnr3372-r0_armv4t.ipk Nov 09 14:10:26 http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/packages/armv4t/openmoko-agpsui2-dbg_0.1.0+svnr3372-r0_armv4t.ipk Nov 09 14:10:34 * ScaredyCat slaps torpor Nov 09 14:11:36 ~smack ScaredyCat Nov 09 14:11:37 * apt smacks ScaredyCat upside the head. Nov 09 14:11:44 damn Nov 09 14:11:55 i did ipkg update but its not in the list .. Nov 09 14:12:06 huh! Nov 09 14:12:41 torpor: you do have scaredycats repos installed? Nov 09 14:12:48 yup Nov 09 14:13:04 sorry had to check Nov 09 14:13:41 so does anyone know how the wrapper setup works then? i really wanna try out agps Nov 09 14:13:52 i have the gllin binary . Nov 09 14:13:54 ScaredyCat bound to Nov 09 14:14:41 well unfortunately i havent been able to try it as my touchscreen is stufffed Nov 09 14:15:17 ipkg install openmoko-agpsui2 Nov 09 14:15:18 Installing openmoko-agpsui2 (0.1.0+svnr3372-r0) to root... Nov 09 14:15:18 Downloading http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/packages/armv4t/openmoko-agpsui2_0.1.0+svnr3372-r0_armv4t.ipk Nov 09 14:15:18 Configuring openmoko-agpsui2 Nov 09 14:15:47 * ScaredyCat stabs torpor with a flamingo Nov 09 14:15:48 ok i see this http://www.openmoko.org.pl/node/55 Nov 09 14:16:04 ScaredyCat: dunno why it didn't work for me, but anyway thanks for the link, its installed now .. Nov 09 14:18:23 * xzcvczx gives ScaredyCat some wackybacky to calm down Nov 09 14:18:39 winners don't do drugs... Nov 09 14:18:47 * ScaredyCat takes the wackybacky Nov 09 14:19:18 actually not very true that is it Nov 09 14:21:30 torpor: http://abraxa.dyndns.org:81/random/gllin-wrapper.tar.gz Nov 09 14:22:40 fgau: thanks! Nov 09 14:24:32 ScaredyCat: have you seen a build problem where certain packages are not getting their SRCREV set properly (being defaulted to 1) ? Nov 09 14:25:10 ScaredyCat: depends how much of a winner you want to be Nov 09 14:25:52 w0w abraxa_ needs a better connection Nov 09 14:28:00 wtf it doesnt need a chroot any more Nov 09 14:28:02 sweet Nov 09 14:28:38 jep :) Nov 09 14:28:50 hows that possible? Nov 09 14:28:54 i thought the ABI changed? Nov 09 14:29:08 * arw1 hello people Nov 09 14:29:09 torpor: just sets the lib dirs Nov 09 14:29:18 ah, makes sense Nov 09 14:29:43 that makes it a "bit" easier to use Nov 09 14:30:11 needs a GUI wrapper to start up and shut down tho' .. Nov 09 14:30:26 ???? Nov 09 14:30:37 what makes you say that Nov 09 14:31:01 oh you mean someone needs to create a gui start/stop script Nov 09 14:31:11 shouldnt be too hard to attached to the panel plugin Nov 09 14:31:19 s/attached/attach Nov 09 14:32:52 and also if you are going to use gpsd then you can stop it dumping to /home/root/gps.gz and just set up gpsd on /tmp/nmeaNP and set it to not stop listening on client disconnect Nov 09 14:33:15 will be reasonably power hungry leaving it on all the time Nov 09 14:33:15 Illegal instruction Nov 09 14:33:21 ^^ i guess it doesn't work. Nov 09 14:33:38 if you set it up properly you would just want to have the gpsd init script attached to the gps panel plugin Nov 09 14:33:43 torpor: when you try what? Nov 09 14:33:59 torpor: run the start_dump script Nov 09 14:34:05 thats what i did Nov 09 14:34:11 yes its in /home/root/gllin too Nov 09 14:34:22 can you strace it? Nov 09 14:34:51 actually i doubt that will help Nov 09 14:36:42 dont see why /home/root/gllin/usr/lib is in the lib l.ist though Nov 09 14:39:37 * mwester sits down with a cup of coffee Nov 09 14:39:47 Who's complaining about power,then? Nov 09 14:40:02 i am Nov 09 14:40:16 me too Nov 09 14:40:33 ~say me too Nov 09 14:40:34 me too Nov 09 14:40:44 :P Nov 09 14:40:46 Which power problem might that be? (The one where the neo sucks the battery dry even when it's turned off?) Nov 09 14:40:50 okay when i unpack glllin-wrapper, gllin (bin file) is 0 bytes long. is that a hint that i should put the binary in place myself? Nov 09 14:40:51 nah i couldnt care less Nov 09 14:40:57 mwester: yes thats the one. Nov 09 14:40:58 torpor: indeed Nov 09 14:41:11 well i did that and i still get illegal instruction Nov 09 14:41:19 is the NVRAM*.DAT file supposed to have anything in it too Nov 09 14:41:32 mwester: i just mentioned power saying leaving gps on 24/7 will leech power like a mofo Nov 09 14:41:40 torpor: sometimes Nov 09 14:41:44 its empheris data Nov 09 14:41:53 well i don't get this, ah well .. Nov 09 14:42:13 torpor: you are running on neo not on computer? Nov 09 14:42:23 yes of course Nov 09 14:42:30 just had to checkk Nov 09 14:42:49 the other option is use that one on .pl and just modify paths where required Nov 09 14:43:00 Ah - do we have a gps driver then?? Nov 09 14:43:13 dunno how many paths are hardwired in om-agpsui2 Nov 09 14:43:24 mwester: no with an if yes with a but :P Nov 09 14:43:32 nah just talking about gllin from p0 Nov 09 14:44:32 not that i have it of course Nov 09 14:45:12 Ah. Ok. I've tried to play "by the rules", but I've truely grown weary of waiting for that driver now. So I don't have it either, and I've also been unable to find it on google, so that I can not download it of course. Nov 09 14:45:38 well mwester i'm playing with it today and i'm no longer playing by the rules either, i want my %#&!@*#&'ing GPS features to be working so i can get on with it .. Nov 09 14:45:45 but guess what: i can't make it work. Nov 09 14:45:52 root@fic-gta01:~/gllin$ lib/ld-linux.so.2 --library-path /home/root/gllin/lib:/home/root/gllin/usr/lib /home/root/gllin/gllin -low 5 Nov 09 14:45:55 Illegal instruction Nov 09 14:46:05 strace it Nov 09 14:46:11 Well that kind of makes the whole issue a moot point then, if it doesn't work... Nov 09 14:46:33 mwester: the binary does work the gui is causing some issues it seems Nov 09 14:46:42 havent seen anyone runnning it yet Nov 09 14:46:45 http://rafb.net/p/APWUzr33.html Nov 09 14:46:50 my neos too f'd Nov 09 14:48:16 torpor: hmmmm looks like one of the libs are fucked Nov 09 14:48:20 abraxa_: Nov 09 14:48:28 ~smack abraxa_ Nov 09 14:48:29 * apt smacks abraxa_ upside the head. Nov 09 14:48:30 Anyway, I just got back from a trip, and my neo did not discharge the battery while it was left turned off. The sound patch is solves part of the power problem, and this script fixed the gsm modem not powering off: http://pastebin.com/m6c787f17 Nov 09 14:49:00 mwester: so what do we do to fix this in the distro then? Nov 09 14:49:12 Incredibly simple. Such a shame that so after so many months this hasn't been fixed. Nov 09 14:49:16 mwester: power usage i find to be very little concern to me at the moment as its still to short to be considered a phone anyway Nov 09 14:49:49 torpor: send me a working neo so i can do some testing :P Nov 09 14:50:14 The experienced users have no real need for it as most of them keep the neo tethered on the usb cable. It's the countless newbies who pop in here daily to ask about the flat battery and how to resurrect the neo. Nov 09 14:50:31 i'm an experienced user and i'm sick of keeping my neo tethered just to keep the battery alive. Nov 09 14:50:37 true Nov 09 14:50:46 xzcvczx: power usage is being reduced Nov 09 14:51:04 torpor: get a wall usb charger and use bluetooth :P Nov 09 14:51:05 mwester: do we have that on bugzilla yet? Nov 09 14:51:24 XorA: well i should also say my touchscreen doesnt work so not much use either way Nov 09 14:51:32 Nope. Got called out of town for a customer visit. Pesky things, those customers. Nov 09 14:51:44 Hope to get that into bugzilla today. Nov 09 14:52:16 mwester: ok, cool. i'll process it over the weekend then, so it makes it into the next snapshot Nov 09 14:52:43 mickeyl: now thats a good worker.... working on weekends :) Nov 09 14:52:50 You'll need the sound driver patch for the kernel as well. It's in bugzilla, but I don't remember the nubmer just yet. Nov 09 14:53:01 mwester: please make it a bug dependency Nov 09 14:53:08 Ah, good idea. :) Nov 09 14:53:10 xzcvczx: no kidding. I've been doing overhours like crazy :/ Nov 09 14:53:25 i need a couple of clones Nov 09 14:53:27 heh Nov 09 14:53:43 mickeyl: if i ever make it to where you are or you ever make it to the assshole of the world i will buy you a beer Nov 09 14:54:03 which sound driver patch do we talk of? Nov 09 14:54:05 wait sorry asshole of the world -1 not quite america Nov 09 14:54:46 xzcvczx: hehe, deal :) Nov 09 14:57:20 woot summer holidays start in < 12 hrs Nov 09 14:57:26 mwester: which sound driver patch? Nov 09 14:57:33 summer holidays Nov 09 14:57:54 it's like 6 hours of light here per day now Nov 09 14:57:58 XorA: I'm searching bugzilla, can' Nov 09 14:58:03 t find it right now...:( Nov 09 14:58:05 xzcvczx: what? Nov 09 14:58:10 guaqua: ha ha :P Nov 09 14:58:20 mwester: just tell me what it does :-) the chances are its already in and bug was closed Nov 09 14:58:22 xzcvczx: in what part of the world? Nov 09 14:58:27 zash: holidays during summer ya know Nov 09 14:58:33 zash: new zealnd Nov 09 14:58:40 zealand Nov 09 14:58:43 that one Nov 09 14:58:50 turns off the lm???? chip's power on suspend and shutdown. Nov 09 14:59:04 mwester: thats already in kernel, just not enabled in OE yet Nov 09 14:59:07 mwester: Im working on it Nov 09 14:59:10 here, it is cold, dark and the snow from yesterday rained away Nov 09 14:59:14 Ah, ok. Nov 09 14:59:25 * zash wants to move to .nz Nov 09 14:59:34 zash: here it is warm and there are blue skies occasioanlly Nov 09 14:59:54 gah damn keyboard write what i say not what i type Nov 09 15:01:50 * zash wants to initiate the 'to-hell-with-everything-and-move-to-new-zealand'-project Nov 09 15:02:15 where is zash now? Nov 09 15:03:00 ac.se Nov 09 15:03:22 sveden Nov 09 15:03:54 north sweden Nov 09 15:04:15 where in northern sweden? Nov 09 15:04:29 umeÃ¥ Nov 09 15:04:38 okay Nov 09 15:04:53 part of the umeå openmoko society :) Nov 09 15:05:17 and that's not too far up north, i'm from uleåborg after all ;) Nov 09 15:26:10 wow i am glad that micheal silolh or however you spell it has asked people to move on from the 850 discussion otheriwse it would be a reasonably boring month on the community list Nov 09 15:26:46 Do you think anyone will listen, though? Nov 09 15:27:29 mwester: well its slowed it down if not stopped it] Nov 09 15:28:55 I don't subscribe, I just picked out a few of the emails (from the euromoko^H^H^H^Hopenmoko team) to get the status, but it looks like lots of "venting" probably is going on. Nov 09 15:29:37 i subscribe to it for about a week before it got too high volume for me Nov 09 15:29:49 pussys Nov 09 15:29:49 now i just read the archives when i am bored Nov 09 15:30:01 ScaredyCat: eat me then Nov 09 15:30:07 community is like one big happy flamewar Nov 09 15:30:08 And for good reason, I don't mean to discount the concerns of those affected, especially since I'm one of them. But I don't see the point of emails to the community list, I think emails direct to Sean might be a better use of bandwidth. Nov 09 15:30:52 mwester: unfortunately it could have a big impact on the popularity of 02 Nov 09 15:31:00 It already has. Nov 09 15:31:32 Apparently an alternative 3-band with 850 in place of 900 is not a major change. Nov 09 15:31:34 meh Nov 09 15:31:40 more for us then :D Nov 09 15:31:41 4 band is a major change Nov 09 15:32:41 which are the 2 most used bands? Nov 09 15:32:49 900/1800 Nov 09 15:32:49 depends where you are Nov 09 15:32:57 IMO, the issue is not about the *numbers* of possible customers in affected areas, it's about the global vision. Add the qualifier "European Tri-band phone" wherever Sean mentions the project in his speeches and emails, and suddenly the openmoko project doesn't seem so, well, so exciting or global. Nov 09 15:33:29 how hard would it be to change the 1900 for the 850 then instead of the 900 Nov 09 15:33:45 xzcvczx: dunno Nov 09 15:33:55 xzcvczx: then you would still screw .us guys Nov 09 15:34:13 XorA: oh so the yanks are using 1900 and 850 Nov 09 15:34:42 xzcvczx: yes, traditionally tri-band was 900/1800/1900 and worked in the US, but then they added 850 to the US Nov 09 15:34:59 ho hum Nov 09 15:35:00 900/1800 are the classic GSM freqs Nov 09 15:35:08 actually 900 is Nov 09 15:35:13 Because 900 MHz in the us was already granted to low-power unlicensed use -- baby monitors, cordless phones, other bull**** Nov 09 15:35:15 1800 was originally not even called gsm Nov 09 15:35:25 gi-el: I know its DCS1800 Nov 09 15:35:41 gi-el: but I didnt want to confuse people with history from 14 years ago Nov 09 15:35:44 exactly, but that was back when gsm was still a french term :) Nov 09 15:36:03 XorA: sorry Nov 09 15:36:06 ppl! forget what i said! Nov 09 15:36:29 * xzcvczx should probably stop being lazy and just wikipedia it but its too late Nov 09 15:36:35 gi-el: there are still files on the SIM labelled DCS1800 just in case some of those phones still work :-) Nov 09 15:38:21 hi Nov 09 15:38:36 good evening sire Nov 09 15:42:04 Hi, are there instruction to try qtopia with the qemu neo emulator? I've built and tried it with 2007.2, I've tried to download qtopia rootfs+kernel images, but u-boot gives me a strange error Nov 09 15:47:32 reppel: I've just flashed it with dfu-util just as with openmoko, but I haven't tried qtopia lately so maybe it's broken now Nov 09 15:49:36 CM: i think he wants it on qemu Nov 09 15:49:59 Ah, ok. Hmm.. Never tried that Nov 09 15:50:16 Too tired to even read the question correctly.. *blink* Nov 09 15:50:31 I haven't gotten qemu to work in months Nov 09 15:51:10 :) Nov 09 15:51:25 :) Nov 09 15:51:36 is qtopia on the neo more feature rich than current openmoko? (stable gsm, writing sms...) Nov 09 15:51:48 CM: i havent bothered getting qemu working in months its too damn slow Nov 09 15:51:52 replace feature rich by stable/mature Nov 09 15:52:00 josch: believe so Nov 09 15:52:10 did anybody try? Nov 09 15:52:11 josch: i am sure there are numerouse postings on wiki about it Nov 09 15:52:14 yeah people have Nov 09 15:52:21 videos on youtube as well Nov 09 15:52:38 so if I want to be productive with my neo qtopia is better for me? Nov 09 15:52:57 hi forks Nov 09 15:53:04 all I'm doing with it for now is searching for a strange gsm daemon bug Nov 09 15:53:22 josch: probably dunno what the power managements like though Nov 09 15:54:33 is trying it out as simple as with openmoko (copying on my sd card and booting)? Nov 09 15:55:13 easier just to flash it on' Nov 09 15:55:31 Powermanagement in qtopia isn't good either Nov 09 15:55:48 At least not to me. Once it suspended it was dead ;) Nov 09 15:55:53 there we go then cm is more authoritive on the subject than i] Nov 09 15:56:18 well, I will stick with openmoko chasing bugs ^^ Nov 09 16:00:30 Hmm.. http://valleywag.com/tech/exclusive/screenshots-of-first-googlephone-app-320226.php Nov 09 16:01:23 if I see that link one more time I'm going to kill someone Nov 09 16:01:27 do we know anything about FICs plans for hardware releases after GTA02? Nov 09 16:01:46 * CM ponders pasting the link again :D Nov 09 16:02:04 * ScaredyCat does a pre-emptive stab at CM with a knife Nov 09 16:04:13 summatusmentis: The question is what value should anyone place on FIC's specific plans even for the GTA02, with the recent "discovery" that the hardware is "euromoko". I think that it would be reasonable to assume that everything we thought we knew about the release and schedule may be very changeable right now. Nov 09 16:04:47 Vaporware SDLC: 1. press release, 2. screen shots, 3. articles in the news, 4. blog entries Nov 09 16:04:51 * mwester very much hopes that a new GTA02-US suddenly appears on the plans post-GTA02... Nov 09 16:05:34 mwester: SonyEricsson do that don't they? Nov 09 16:05:36 mwester: that's primarily why I'm asking. I live in rural areas of the US, where 850 is the only gsm available. either that, or cdma, so that's why i ask Nov 09 16:05:50 It's a loop, so you go back to 1 when people stop caring. Nov 09 16:05:50 I mean, a lot of phones have an US version Nov 09 16:06:10 And I think the K700j was Japanese, I had K700i (international) Nov 09 16:06:13 is unfortunate not to have a quadband though Nov 09 16:06:16 A lot of phones have quad band gsm. :-) Nov 09 16:06:18 se phones are shite... Nov 09 16:06:22 just admit it Nov 09 16:06:36 a lot of states use standard-(e)gsm in 900 and 1800 mhz bands :) Nov 09 16:06:41 summatusmentis: I'm near Chicago, but I too need 850 here. A quad-band would be nice, but it sounds like that isn't possible with the GTA02. :( Nov 09 16:06:43 Hehe, but they work, at least for me Nov 09 16:06:57 * CM has had k700, k750, w610 Nov 09 16:06:57 they probably export the crap Nov 09 16:07:07 not a p910i then... Nov 09 16:07:19 you'd hate them too if you'd had one Nov 09 16:07:19 ScaredyCat: No, that's utter crap Nov 09 16:07:32 I know, my dad had one. Never worked properly Nov 09 16:07:57 mwester: yeah... kinda bumming out, knowing it's not likely to work in most of the us Nov 09 16:08:03 not as bad as the razr..... would crash if the phone created its user dictionary file Nov 09 16:08:07 if you type your pin number in fast enought, it doesn't replace the numbers with *'s Nov 09 16:08:44 stupid stupid phone. Nov 09 16:09:08 summatusmentis: I think the ball is in *moko's court, and all we can do is wait to see what they decide to do. Nov 09 16:09:47 hi! me and fgau are having a little problem with the gsm daemon and would like to know how to work around it Nov 09 16:10:15 the problem is, that gsm sometimes stops working - we didn't figure out why but Nov 09 16:10:17 mwester: *moko? ClosedMoko, BrokenMoko, iMoko? Nov 09 16:10:23 I actaully want them shipping to and from the US - in usd prices please :D Nov 09 16:10:32 * mwester also confesses that his "bullshit-deflection-shield" is set to "high" when it comes to announcements from FIC/openmoko regarding timelines, as they have a history of non-delivery. :( Nov 09 16:10:36 we were not able to restart it by /etc/init.d/gsmd restart Nov 09 16:10:36 CM: Euromoko Nov 09 16:10:44 :) Nov 09 16:10:58 so, what do we have to do to restart the gsm chip and re-register with the network Nov 09 16:11:18 sometimes /etc/init.d/xserver-nodm restart helps but not always Nov 09 16:11:42 is this a common problem? we were not able to make it reproduceable Nov 09 16:12:02 but to know how to be able to restart gsm would help a lot Nov 09 16:13:16 josch: depends on which image/updates you work with. "/etc/init.d/gsmd restart" will do the job on recent ones, it might not work so well on older ones, and may in fact lock up the phone on really old images. Nov 09 16:14:06 mwester, my image is from today and I'm using your kernel Nov 09 16:14:23 josch: An image from http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/?M=D ? Nov 09 16:14:25 Ok. Then I don't know :( Nov 09 16:14:43 Ebbe, no I build it my own Nov 09 16:15:02 mwester, if I'm using your kernel you don't know? :-) Nov 09 16:15:21 josch: Maybe you should try a build from there. I'm having luck with that Nov 09 16:15:34 okay, will try that Nov 09 16:15:45 kernel + recent image should resolve the lockup issue (kernel), and should have all the right stuff in the /etc/init.d/gsmd script to ensure that gsmd starts and restarts reliably. Nov 09 16:16:06 So your problem must be something I've not seen so far. Nov 09 16:16:23 mwester, fgau is also having the same problem with a custom image Nov 09 16:16:52 so, at a first step I should try out an official image? Nov 09 16:16:59 * mwester again feels the desire to drive a wooden stake through the heart of gsmd Nov 09 16:17:03 why should this be different from mine? Nov 09 16:17:48 josch: I don't really know.. :/ Nov 09 16:18:09 Ebbe, so you do not have this problems with this image? Nov 09 16:18:24 josch: Nope Nov 09 16:18:39 josch: that's not the official ones Nov 09 16:18:42 should I use an official kernel or mwesters? Nov 09 16:19:17 those are the oficial builds? http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/?C=M;O=D Nov 09 16:19:37 yeah Nov 09 16:20:15 * CM is off to get a few beers Nov 09 16:20:24 josch: According to this( http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-progress ) it first worked with Ã…ngström upstream.. I don't know if this is related.. Nov 09 16:20:44 beer Nov 09 16:20:47 that is a good idea. Nov 09 16:20:54 josch: And now it works with the builds I showed you Nov 09 16:21:10 * mwester needs to move further east, so beer can be earlier in the day. Nov 09 16:21:25 .. and then your phone would work too Nov 09 16:21:28 anyone able to use the angrstom feed on their neo's right now? Nov 09 16:21:51 maybe I should just do another build on my pc Nov 09 16:22:01 and use the official kernel Nov 09 16:22:25 josch: my images work ok Nov 09 16:23:10 ScaredyCat, yeah but I need tar for my sd card Nov 09 16:23:44 ahh Nov 09 16:23:53 ScaredyCat, ?? Nov 09 16:24:15 w00t fsckstar is back! Nov 09 16:25:00 anyone know how to put terminal into a much more code-friendly font setup? Nov 09 16:59:58 where is everyone tonight? Nov 09 17:00:25 they went off for beer, they said. Nov 09 17:02:20 does the google phone use openmoko, or do they (the collaboration) have their own OS? Nov 09 17:02:46 they've not said yet Nov 09 17:02:52 ruxpin: They'll make their own Nov 09 17:02:58 Android they call it Nov 09 17:03:00 ruxpin: see #android Nov 09 17:03:11 aye, join everyone else waiting for monday Nov 09 17:03:30 hehe Nov 09 17:03:58 But it'll be closed compared to the beautiful OpenMoko! :) Nov 09 17:04:19 OpenMoko wont be beautiful when I finish Nov 09 17:04:44 so no-one knows if openmoko and android are interchangeable in gphone and neo1973? Nov 09 17:04:57 ruxpin: there's no such thing as gphone Nov 09 17:05:25 and I thought the pirahna tank effect had finished when people got their Neo's Nov 09 17:05:37 I won't ask about GTA02, But, first of all, what's GTA02?:) Nov 09 17:05:48 Penguin: don't ask. Nov 09 17:05:54 XorA: What do you mean? Nov 09 17:05:57 is it a computer game? Nov 09 17:05:59 ohmfg, http://www.themishmash.com/2007/11/explain-this-ta.html Nov 09 17:06:32 XorA: beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I'm sure it will be a wonder to behold after you finish! Nov 09 17:06:56 Ebbe: which comment? Nov 09 17:07:13 perhaps it's henna Nov 09 17:07:14 XorA: "pirahna tank effect" Nov 09 17:07:15 ruxpin: the thing is, openmoko is linux. anyone can use linux to make a cell phone. *anyone*. Nov 09 17:07:33 there's as many reasons to use linux on a gphone as there are to use redhat or ubuntu or debian in a server center. Nov 09 17:07:33 Ebbe: people grabbing at any slight morsel of rumour as though it was meat Nov 09 17:07:47 people forget; there is a lot of glue out there behind the brand, and some of it is 'linux' Nov 09 17:07:50 torpor: yeah, I'm still in the "silo" mindset :) Nov 09 17:07:54 which runs on a fuck of a lot of machinery. Nov 09 17:08:12 what matters to linux is, what is it running on? Nov 09 17:08:19 and as far as android is concerned the answer is: nothing. Nov 09 17:08:20 XorA: naah, we learned out lessons Nov 09 17:08:35 hehe~ Nov 09 17:08:37 ScaredyCat: yeah, you ate the 850Mhz support by accident Nov 09 17:08:40 s/~/!/ Nov 09 17:08:40 mwester meant: hehe! Nov 09 17:08:52 not as much as M$ windows Nov 09 17:09:06 XorA: naa, I'm in europe - I win ! :D Nov 09 17:09:17 * mwester has learned his lesson, and is now more skeptical and cynical than ever. :P Nov 09 17:09:54 * mwester suspects that because of that, he'll end up upsetting roh even more often. Nov 09 17:10:38 * ScaredyCat gets a poking stick Nov 09 17:11:03 mwester: what are you skeptikal about? Nov 09 17:12:45 torpor: Everything. Absolutely everything. But in particular, I have committed to myself to *ignore* all dates for FIC/Openmoko issued by anyone, including employees of Openmoko. Nov 09 17:13:22 * XorA never issues dates Nov 09 17:13:41 people really fly by the "open-" part of openmoko, like its a brand for something. its not a brand for something. its a statement that anyone can do what they like with the phones. Nov 09 17:13:48 yeah, but december, right? ;) Nov 09 17:13:56 I will believe that a GTA02 exists only when I hold it in my hands. And I especially won't believe that a GTA02-US may possibly exist or even be planned until one arrives on my desk. Nov 09 17:13:57 nothing stopping someone from blowing away openmoko on the neo and putting something else on it, entirely. Nov 09 17:14:06 try doing that with a RAZR Nov 09 17:14:32 i believe that the gta02 will hit us. i will get one as soon as i can. i think its a valid platform for pushing openmoko. Nov 09 17:14:36 try doing it with most phones that'll have andriod on Nov 09 17:14:52 torpor: s/Openmoko/FIC/ whereever you wish so as to read the commentary to apply to both hardware and software. Nov 09 17:14:53 but if it becomes ubiquitous, unless openmoko becomes extremely cool to use, i will put something else on it instead. Nov 09 17:14:56 torpor: erm... w/ VZW razrs, you can do that.... it's not particularly liked, but it's doable Nov 09 17:15:12 yeah i know Nov 09 17:15:21 its not as easy as the neo and openmoko handhelds are supposed to be. Nov 09 17:15:26 true Nov 09 17:15:35 like, don't forget openmoko is openembedded, and openembedded is sharp/zaurus-derived. Nov 09 17:16:06 openmoko is, like, 3rd-generation linux-in-your-pocket. this seems to be overlooked a lot by newcomers. Nov 09 17:16:19 what was first? Nov 09 17:16:23 qtopia? Nov 09 17:16:24 maybe there aren't as many sl5500's in the world as there should be.. Nov 09 17:16:33 * summatusmentis has a 5500 Nov 09 17:16:39 torpor: I don't think that anyone from FIC/Openmoko has committed to a date for the GTA02, and I think the the recent issue with triband is a valid reason for FIC/Openmoko to re-evaluate everything. If I was in charge, and such a major issue arose, I would consider it remiss if I didn't ask if there are other issues in the phone that need time to explore. Nov 09 17:16:44 * torpor has one too .. Nov 09 17:16:47 * XorA has a 5500 c860 c3200 zaurus Nov 09 17:17:12 mwester: i dunno about that, really honestly and eriously. FIC is a *clone* company, after all. Nov 09 17:17:18 FIC is like 21st century beige-boxer .. Nov 09 17:17:23 +s Nov 09 17:17:56 wouldn't it rock if we could get a SOC setup that could just function 100% as a collie clone, only on a keyfob, perhaps? Nov 09 17:18:01 * hrw has 5500 c760 (+ 6000L from OE) Nov 09 17:18:04 VLC'ed to our gta02's and 3's. . . Nov 09 17:18:26 torpor: collie is crap Nov 09 17:18:44 the only value of openmoko as i see it is how wieldy it is by those who wish to use it to put applications on the phone in front of them. Nov 09 17:18:48 Well, we don't know I guess. But I certainly expect that SOMEBODY at FIC/Openmoko is asking the question "If we didn't know the quad/tri band problem, what ELSE don't we know???" and the result would be, quite reasonably, a delay. Nov 09 17:19:11 hence my skepticism that it will ship anytime soon. Nov 09 17:19:14 hrw: my collie isn't crap, its lovely, parked on the bookshelf, functioning as a server for checkins/outs by my pals .. Nov 09 17:19:51 torpor: as pda it is crap Nov 09 17:20:11 as far as shipping hardware, any FOSS-exploiting company that gets hung up on political reasons for hardware not to work in lieu of shipping 100% working hardware, has its head fully up its ass and probably shouldn't continue to exist. Nov 09 17:20:17 i say that as a hard consumer. Nov 09 17:20:37 hrw: as a computing system, it is not crap. Nov 09 17:20:38 torpor: the current issues are not political, they are technical. Nov 09 17:21:01 mwester: like the specs sheet got ahead of itself, and wasn't in sync with the linux realities? Nov 09 17:21:10 I'm actually hoping that the reason bugger all has really happened on the openmoko front is down to a secret allians with google and android Nov 09 17:21:16 alliance Nov 09 17:21:25 thats something different then. it just means the linux guys are having a hard time talking to the paying-the-bills guys, and everyone thinks everyone else is an asshole. Nov 09 17:21:59 either way, its nice and friendly to be using openmoko to hack codee right now, anywy .. Nov 09 17:22:00 torpor: No, like SOMEBODY knew that the device was tri-band ONLY, but most of the rest of FIC/Openmoko did not. This seems to imply that there was a issue with the requirements docs, testing specs, and everything else. Nov 09 17:22:26 mwester: ah, i see. not enough old-fogies on board to maeke sure all the t's are crossed and i's dotted .. Nov 09 17:22:44 probably not enough hot secretaries taking care of their responsibiliies with the paperwork .. Nov 09 17:22:45 This sort of "disconnect" is reason for any company, not just FOSS-related, to re-evaluate what else may have fallen through the cracks. Nov 09 17:22:47 +t Nov 09 17:23:18 mwester: yeh, alarm state governance is only needed when there hasn't been enough normal governance, right? Nov 09 17:24:49 well, also, unless they had expensive gsm test equipment (maybe they did.. who knows) Nov 09 17:24:57 they would be unable to test 850/1900 in asia Nov 09 17:25:22 maybe they simply got so orgasmed out by the linux thing that they forgot to cross a few t's on the FCC application .. Nov 09 17:25:25 it can happen Nov 09 17:25:47 and after all: THE NEO1973 IS NOTHING BUT A DEVELOPER PHONE. THE 800MHZ ISSUE IS A *DEVELOPER* ISSUE. Nov 09 17:26:08 hw/ti fw developer Nov 09 17:26:13 then there's us, sw devs Nov 09 17:26:23 anrp: what u working on? Nov 09 17:26:27 sw :P Nov 09 17:26:44 torpor: I'm not going to argue that point, but that's not true. The quad/tri band issue is not at all a developer issue. It has far more reaching implications. Nov 09 17:30:30 mwester: such as? Nov 09 17:35:03 I'm not going argue the point with you; I'll argue it with Openmoko/FIC if they wish. The problem is that the device was *BY DESIGN* a euro-triband. It's not as though someone tried to make it quad, and it didn't work out (that would be what you'd expect from a developer P1 phone). Further, there is the issue that FIC/Openmoko didn't know this -- this is serious blow to any organization's credibility. I could go on, but I've said my bit. Nov 09 17:35:32 And that one part - the part doing the FCC paperwork - certainly knew it months ago. Nov 09 17:36:52 I've thought of that, but I'm trying to be charitable. It would really anger me if I thought that FIC/Openmoko *knew* the device was Euro-triband *before* they sold the P1 units to anyone in the affected areas as "quad-band-capable". Nov 09 17:38:07 mwester: i'm not looking for an argument, i'm interested in your perspective. why is this such a big deal? Nov 09 17:38:24 its not like 8xx mhz band whatever can't be partitioned off/supported properly in linux, just like everything else hanging in /dev Nov 09 17:38:51 perhaps what we ought to conclude is that non-working hardware sucks ass, and people shouldn't sell it for so much money as working hardware. Nov 09 17:38:58 i.e. the neo1973 is *NOT* worth the investment. Nov 09 17:39:13 unless your investment is of course, some form of development front .. in which case it is an interesting exercise .. Nov 09 17:39:32 Much of the assumption - reasonable IMO - is that a phone manufacturer will not screw up basic aspects of the phone - even if software is not there yet. Nov 09 17:40:10 This means that people may choose to be early adopters, not unreasonably assuming that they will eventually - if OM works - have a useful phone for their money. Nov 09 17:40:18 torpor: because Euromoko isn't nearly as meaningful a project as Openmoko. The vision of Openmoko is rather less compelling if it's restricted to Europe. And keep in mind that there is no alternate hardware, nor any commitment to make any alternate hardware at this time. Nov 09 17:40:36 xzcvczx: Moo? Nov 09 17:40:42 And for many people in the US, it's basically now not a useful phone. Nov 09 17:41:08 mwester: yes, fine, you are right, that is all a big problem. what is the issue with just adding 8xx support anyway, though? an FCC application? Nov 09 17:41:13 torpor: Did you replace the gllin dummy with the real binary? If not then you try to execute a file with length 0 :) Nov 09 17:41:21 tell me something: why shouldn't the FOSS world have to comply with governance? Nov 09 17:41:30 EuroNeo. Presumably openmoko can handle another approved phone with the quad band hardware. Nov 09 17:41:34 torpor: did you read the issue? 850 requires redesigning the circuit board. Nov 09 17:41:57 abraxa_: yes, i figured that out early, but the gllin i put in there ( that used to work pre-ABI change) is also giving me the issue. i think the lib is futz Nov 09 17:42:17 torpor: this is _completely_ seperate from GPS. Nov 09 17:42:21 JohnMahowald: Yep. As soon as someone creates that hardware. Nov 09 17:42:57 Or reverse engineers an existing phone. Nov 09 17:46:20 i'm pretty certain someone will create an open phone capable of running openmoko, when there's a viable platform Nov 09 17:46:32 and a phone that also works in america Nov 09 17:46:58 this a blow to openmoko project, but not to the whole movement Nov 09 17:47:51 meant to say, when openmoko is a viable platform Nov 09 17:48:34 it's not a blow. OpenMoko is software. Neo1973 is the alpha of some attempt at making some hardware Nov 09 17:49:21 some numpty only enabled 3 radios; just like some numpty wired the GSM baseband straight to the battery. Nov 09 17:49:33 it is a blow to the software project aswell. not as many people interested in buying a phone to use it on and to develop on Nov 09 17:49:57 You've never since these "problems" before, because no company has even dared to let you see pre-alpha hardware befre Nov 09 17:50:09 * don-o nods Nov 09 17:50:11 s/since/seen/ Nov 09 17:50:12 sladen meant: You've never seen these "problems" before, because no company has even dared to let you see pre-alpha hardware befre Nov 09 17:50:40 apt: ssssh. Nov 09 17:50:42 its been interesting to see problems in the hardware layout. totally new concept to me. Nov 09 17:50:44 cant argue with you about the hardware Nov 09 17:52:06 we expect 2 years of buggy software before its useful; the same is true of hardware, and sometimes fairly large mistakes that need a rewrite happen in both Nov 09 17:52:20 mwester: well it is a big issue, but you know what? why should an asian hardware co. give a shit about the US? Nov 09 17:52:59 another point is back when RF for GTA0X was designed US was some tiny proportion of GSM worldwide most mobile companies ignored it Nov 09 17:53:09 torpor: 10% of a market is still 10% of a market. Nov 09 17:53:42 torpor: thanks, your opinion is noted, and filed. Enjoy your project. Nov 09 17:54:06 ... Nov 09 17:54:55 my guess is that 1800 and 1900 are close enough to use the same antenna Nov 09 17:55:09 but from what I remembe 850 and 900 need separate ones Nov 09 17:55:22 900 and 1800 can probably use the same antenna Nov 09 17:55:30 1900's mismatch with 1800 is not too bad Nov 09 17:55:41 (1800 was short range, so tends to be used in cities) Nov 09 17:55:42 BTW, that kind of comment from torpor is what I feel is the MOST damaging of this situation. The crap going on just divides what was intended to be a global community of developers into multiple groups. Not productive. Nov 09 17:55:50 and 900 tends to be used in the countryside Nov 09 17:55:57 * mjr would presume they all use the same ant... Nov 09 17:56:02 yeah, lower freqs penetrate, propogate better Nov 09 17:56:09 interesting project for someone to mod their GTA01 to 850Mhz Nov 09 17:56:18 its not an hw mod, its a software thing Nov 09 17:56:30 if the antenna is quad, which i assume it is Nov 09 17:56:37 since quad band antennas are old hat now Nov 09 17:56:44 XorA, rather hard. Even if they could replace the 900 MHz circuitry with 850, they'd then need TI Calypso firmware to match Nov 09 17:56:51 anrp: well as it was explained as a board layout issue, its obviously not a software patch :-) Nov 09 17:56:54 It's not the antenna. Nov 09 17:57:02 It's the circuitry behind it which is the problem. Nov 09 17:57:08 no 850 drive? Nov 09 17:57:17 To be a quad-band design, you need a 4-port mux to 4 appropriate ilters. Nov 09 17:57:22 filters Nov 09 17:57:29 there is only a 3 port mux Nov 09 17:57:30 and they didnt get that far? Nov 09 17:57:30 yah, and it isn't Nov 09 17:57:49 * anrp speaks without knowing in that case Nov 09 17:57:51 modding the 900 to 850 might in theory be possible. Nov 09 17:58:17 the best the US guys can hope for is a relatively quick version where the 900 MHz bits are replaced with 850 MHz ones, as is apparently being investigated Nov 09 17:58:17 i am full of un-knowledge (s#!+) .. sorry ;s Nov 09 17:58:18 However, this is only if you are comfortable reworking dense SMD boards. Nov 09 17:58:49 The components probably involved are around 1*0.5mm Nov 09 17:58:56 i do lots of work at 0603 Nov 09 17:58:58 are the filters programmable/configurable from the firmware---I think I saw some note of "we could probably make an 850/1800/1900 *or* an 900/1800/1900) Nov 09 17:59:03 and you can't disturb nearby ones. Nov 09 17:59:03 0402 is .. maybe too much, though Nov 09 17:59:06 sladen: no Nov 09 17:59:11 sladen: it's hardware. Nov 09 17:59:26 sladen, that's talking about two different hw models Nov 09 17:59:30 SpeedEvil: it's hardware == analogue filters? Nov 09 17:59:33 yes Nov 09 18:00:07 mjr: so that's a case of 3 port mux and replacing one of the filters (one component) on a separate board run? Nov 09 18:00:08 its not an SDR, that would be crazy power consuming, and large Nov 09 18:00:15 ...it would be exceedingly cool though Nov 09 18:00:27 sladen: basically, yes. Nov 09 18:00:39 sladen: as ro h was saying yesterday. Nov 09 18:59:30 mwester: i believe that it doesn't matter if neo screws up, openmoko can float along to whatever else comes next. Nov 09 18:59:48 euromoko vs US-moko == irrelevant. linux doesn't run on nationalism. Nov 09 19:00:08 it runs on hardware. so whatever mass-produced hardware it can be ported to, within its ultra-shiny and smooth bubble, its a good thing. Nov 09 19:00:14 its already done that, now, across a lot of platforms. Nov 09 19:00:22 Nov 09 19:00:30 Assuming that Android isn't very open, and great Nov 09 19:00:38 and takes away all the devs Nov 09 19:01:27 and produces the appropriate gas mixture Nov 09 19:01:30 oops Nov 09 19:02:41 android is not running on anything. maybe i'll run android on the neo1973 next tuesday, if i can. Nov 09 19:03:37 heh, probaply the only plattform it will ever work ;) Nov 09 19:03:41 That's what I mean - when it's announced and released. Nov 09 19:06:20 their testing platform is a board based on the Qualcomm SoC, so not only Nov 09 19:09:09 balrog-kun: gcc targets plenty of SoC's .. qualcomms are worth more than others, sometimes less . . Nov 09 19:10:36 torpor: gcc doesn't target SoC's, it targets ARM in general, and i'm not saying anything about wether qualcomm is good or not Nov 09 19:10:52 SoC == system on chip, right? Nov 09 19:11:23 yes Nov 09 19:11:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System-on-a-chip Nov 09 19:11:37 gcc + linux targets plenty o'l SoC's .. Nov 09 19:12:00 SoC's aren't just arm .. i've got a mips one, a coldfire one .. Nov 09 19:12:26 you can't get to the bits of SoC's without a compiler. Nov 09 19:12:32 i wasn't implying SoC's are arm Nov 09 19:12:37 whatever. Nov 09 19:12:38 gcc has no knowledge about any SoC Nov 09 19:12:54 the point is whats so special about qualcomm's soc's? Nov 09 19:13:22 i don't know, i just said the Neo1973 is not the only platform Android will possibly run on Nov 09 19:13:31 balrog-kun: gcc *targets* SoC's .. whether its by allowing code to be written for the principle CPU, or allowing that code to be written that allows easy access to the on-components.. Nov 09 19:13:53 * ScaredyCat targets a pizza Nov 09 19:14:13 you don't write to an onboard component without a compiler.. cpu's have expanded to allow not just bins but full systems .. Nov 09 19:14:58 that's like saying gcc targets computers that have a Sound Blaster or a Floppy drive Nov 09 19:15:07 the compiler is completely agnostic to that Nov 09 19:15:22 re guys Nov 09 19:15:32 (and lads is we really have ones) Nov 09 19:45:26 WHY Nov 09 19:45:49 because ? Nov 09 19:47:05 wrong answer Nov 09 19:49:30 poor tomaw Nov 09 20:28:45 Phone. :) Nov 09 20:29:33 i read here, that gllin is free (while closed source) now. is that true? Nov 09 20:30:53 i'm don't really have up-to-date knowledge but i know some people distribute it Nov 09 20:31:00 so it's downloadable, legally or not Nov 09 20:33:39 emdete: A GUI frontend was released (openmoko-agpsui2), but not gllin itself Nov 09 20:35:38 how useful Nov 09 20:37:01 ;D Nov 09 20:37:15 anyone of you got experience with git ? Nov 09 20:37:46 Web Apps for OpenMoko. :) Nov 09 20:38:16 flexd: ask a more precise question Nov 09 20:38:51 balrog-kun: well i was wondering if there was a easy way to use git to keep my code up to date after i've done changes Nov 09 20:38:57 Android. Nov 09 20:39:08 (just trying to stir up trouble.) Nov 09 20:39:12 hehe Nov 09 20:39:17 mmontour: i have a strange effect with it and don't know what to do. it stopps with message "Stack size 8864 bytes (9 KB)" Nov 09 20:39:24 (which would seem natural), i code alot at work and at home on my project, and bringing a mem stick back and forth kinda sucks Nov 09 20:39:32 * flexd stomps on nelson's face. Nov 09 20:39:48 emdete: Android doesn't have that problem. Nov 09 20:40:10 emdete: Android does have any bugs. You see, by eliminating all code, they have eliminated all bugs at the same time. Nov 09 20:40:11 flexd: yeah, git (or any other repo) would be perfect for that Nov 09 20:40:15 nelson: what the hell is android :D Nov 09 20:40:20 so who's gonna port simcity to openmoko? Nov 09 20:40:30 but how do i setup a repo on my linux box at home? Nov 09 20:40:32 emdete: I'm not sure I dare say. It could get ugly. Nov 09 20:40:37 enjahova: Hmm.... Not a bad idea... Nov 09 20:40:45 Kragnerac, its OSS now :) Nov 09 20:40:46 and does it work getting that repo in windows too (fetching from my linux box) Nov 09 20:40:53 enjahova: :) Nov 09 20:41:25 Android? Wouldn't mention it here. Possible flamewave. Nov 09 20:41:51 Don't mention gphone either. Nov 09 20:41:57 :P Nov 09 20:42:01 emdete: Did you want an answer to the question? Nov 09 20:42:05 And per the topic, best not to ask about GTA02 either. Nov 09 20:42:25 wibbit: about gllin? shure... Nov 09 20:42:37 flexd: just do cg-init, there are good git tutorials at git.or.cz iirc Nov 09 20:42:38 mwester: Or iPhone, or Windows Mobile, or PalmOS, or Symbian. :P Nov 09 20:42:39 emdete: nope, about android Nov 09 20:42:40 But asking about the availability of the closed gllin driver is fair game ;) Nov 09 20:42:42 flexd: no idea about windows Nov 09 20:42:49 wibbit: no, not interested Nov 09 20:42:58 emdete: okay, just checking Nov 09 20:43:34 wibbit: oh, depends, if it helps with gps... Nov 09 20:43:40 emdete: nope Nov 09 20:44:06 emdete: It's just the new "open platform" by google, aimed at mobile devices (phones), at least, that's my simplistic view of it Nov 09 20:44:11 :( sad story is i had it running once. but now it's just complaining Nov 09 20:44:20 Did the consumer-ready version of the Neo1973 get delayed? Nov 09 20:44:49 Kragnerac: I don't think it ever had an official release deadline, so I don't think it would be fair to say it was delayed Nov 09 20:44:52 wibbit: okay, if we are in it - do you know if they put it on the neo like the trolls did? Nov 09 20:45:13 Kragnerac: hard to answer, it gets delayed all the time, but i don't know when you last checked Nov 09 20:45:29 wibbit: they had several deadlines, they missed them all, I think. Nov 09 20:45:38 emdete: I don't think it actually "exists" yet, much like the "iPhones" release, months before it could be bought Nov 09 20:45:52 Ah, the world of hardware and software. Nov 09 20:45:55 pjz: internal deadlines, or official anounced deadlines? Nov 09 20:46:02 wibbit: announced ones Nov 09 20:46:07 pjz: okie Nov 09 20:46:09 emdete: do you have the gllin binary? Is that what you were referring to with that 'stack size' message? Nov 09 20:46:20 wibbit: they originally announced that GTA01 phones would go on sale in January Nov 09 20:46:28 wibbit: it took... a little longer. Nov 09 20:46:33 That's the GTA01 Nov 09 20:46:43 that's what I said. Nov 09 20:46:47 mmontour: yes Nov 09 20:47:12 GTA02 was originally announced for October, though they backed that off fairly quickly too. Nov 09 20:47:27 i think i even read 08.2006 as the GTA01 planned release in some early slides Nov 09 20:47:57 emdete: The ABI interface changed, so gllin won't work with the new library versions. You can run it in a chroot environment with old (2007.1) libs Nov 09 20:48:19 balrog-kun: well, they first hit the media saying gta01 dev releases in 12.2006 and consumer availability in 01.2007 Nov 09 20:48:42 balrog-kun: checkable by digging through the archives at linuxdevices.com if you care. Nov 09 20:48:51 pjz: oh okay, that might be what i read Nov 09 20:48:59 mmontour: i did - with another trick but it loads the correct libs (as far as i see) Nov 09 20:49:26 though at this point the Neo has almost achieved its purpose even if it doesn't get released Nov 09 20:49:37 * mwester wonders what that would be. Nov 09 20:50:06 mwester: causing the existence of a phone with an open software stack Nov 09 20:50:14 what with all the Nov 09 20:50:44 'handset alliances' and 'linux mobile' groups and etc, it's going to be a competitive disadvangte to be a closed system before long. Nov 09 20:50:55 which is as it should be Nov 09 20:51:08 I don't have gllin myself, but the chroot approach should work. Have you tried 'strace' to see where it's having problems? Nov 09 20:51:20 but it took, IMHO, FIC announcing that they were going to do it in order to help kickthe industry in the rear Nov 09 20:57:42 mmontour: i use the ld- aproach... Nov 09 21:08:25 emdete: If you can post a 'strace' output somewhere I can look at it. Otherwise I don't know what your problem would be - I tried the "ld" thing with another OABI binary and it seemed to work for me Nov 09 21:15:11 mmontour: i just checked the chroot-trick which works (sry for the delay) Nov 09 21:15:27 mmontour: maybe my ld- env has wrong libs... i will check Nov 09 21:15:46 mmontour: i like the ld stuff better, looks much smaller Nov 09 21:16:35 roflmao.... iphone sales going well - queue was up to a startling 8 in Glasgow Nov 09 21:17:58 ScaredyCat: Same in Germany, lol... Nov 09 21:18:40 What's an ? Nov 09 21:18:48 different channel Nov 09 21:18:56 nick Nov 09 21:19:07 ah. sorry :o Nov 09 21:19:52 Perhaps rabid apple fan-dom is a north american phenomenon? Nov 09 21:21:30 Yeah. It's a totally different mentality. Nov 09 21:21:36 (fortunately) Nov 09 21:24:01 yeah - we tend to get free phones with contracts Nov 09 21:25:01 emdete: sizes should be similar - I have 7.5M for a "ld-wrapper" tree, and 8.7M for a "chroot" tree Nov 09 21:25:43 mmontour: okay, found my problem: the message means the pipe is full... Nov 09 21:25:48 7.9M chroot for gllin here Nov 09 21:25:53 need to clean it a bit Nov 09 21:27:19 hrw: i stripped it to 4.4 Nov 09 21:27:34 and gllin still works? Nov 09 21:28:03 emdete: ls -R|mail openmoko@haerwu.biz :) Nov 09 21:28:07 bye Nov 09 21:28:09 heh, someone linked me this http://vimeo.com/373021/ (nevermind the video), the comment by the guy named "David Marcus" made me chuckle :< Nov 09 21:28:16 Fact, if Patrick had an Iphone, finding this girl would not be a problem, as we all know, people with IPhones are capable of conquering even the greatest of feats Nov 09 21:28:56 I wonder if i get a Iphone i'l instantly get a cool job and a girlfrined Nov 09 21:28:59 friend Nov 09 21:29:20 or.. I'l just have a tiny mac that cant do anything special :/ Nov 09 21:29:38 and you'll need a cool job (or at least a well paying one) to afford the contract Nov 09 21:29:38 * flexd wanders off agian Nov 09 21:29:40 no, you're forced to wear tuttle necked jumpers Nov 09 21:29:42 I know that if I got an iPhone I would instantly lose my personal identify, and become one of millions of sheep, to be herded about by Jobs. Nov 09 21:29:54 s/identify/identity/ Nov 09 21:29:55 mwester meant: I know that if I got an iPhone I would instantly lose my personal identity, and become one of millions of sheep, to be herded about by Jobs. Nov 09 21:29:56 mwester: ^_^ Nov 09 21:30:09 meh i wish someone would educate and hire me already Nov 09 21:30:28 I skipped the education, and just convinced someone to hire me. Nov 09 21:30:29 I've got about 1 year left of this apprentice bullshit, im fucking sick of being tech support already :> Nov 09 21:30:34 Quicker, and cheaper. Nov 09 21:30:46 Yah, tech support sucks. Nov 09 21:30:48 mwester: best would be if someone would hire me into a position where i can program stuff Nov 09 21:31:09 Ah, where one can *create* the problems, instead of solve them? :p :D Nov 09 21:31:16 * mwester ducks Nov 09 21:31:21 like, if i could get a job on some cool project to help out or something, even if i dont know much stuff yet i'd learn alot :p Nov 09 21:31:38 mwester: I am a master of creating problems Nov 09 21:32:01 but i also make things work eventually :< Nov 09 21:32:21 * mwester is a technology janitor; he spends much time cleaning up behind programmers. Nov 09 21:32:55 I spend much time cleaning up my code Nov 09 21:33:02 like a month ago i knew absolutely no python Nov 09 21:33:29 so like Nov 09 21:33:36 20day old code = messy shit :> Nov 09 21:45:55 does the openmoko kernel do stack or memory randomization? Nov 09 21:49:03 Ghiottone: by default nope, just as every other linux kernel Nov 09 21:50:42 flexd: it depends on whether you've been good or bad before you got your iPhone. Nov 09 21:50:46 If you were good, you get a girlfriend. Nov 09 21:51:01 If you were bad, you get a girlfiend. Nov 09 21:51:15 And if you were dyslexic, you get a grilfiend. Nov 09 21:51:54 wait, why'd a good person get an iPhone? Nov 09 21:52:35 Windoze mobile phone :P Nov 09 21:54:11 Someone buy me a iphone Nov 09 21:54:19 and il smash it Nov 09 21:54:20 :D Nov 09 21:54:46 bleh, why cant I find a phone upgrade for me Nov 09 21:56:44 flexd: smashing still isn't as good as http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone :) Nov 09 21:57:30 blending infront of a loong queue with people waiting to buy one Nov 09 21:57:34 now that would rock Nov 09 21:57:40 * mwester has a brilliant idea: take away all the phones from the openmoko employees and key community members except their Neo's, then see how fast the bugs and problems get fixed. ;) Nov 09 21:58:08 mwester: NOOOO NOT MY PHONES!!!!! Nov 09 21:58:27 mmontour: From reading the community mailing list, I bet there are some folks who would like to do that with their GTA01's ;) Nov 09 21:58:35 mwester: sounds good... i wonder why gsmd is still terminating. Nov 09 21:59:22 emdete: because we (community) failed on that. Of all the openmoko code, gsmd is the one that should have been forked and rewritten a long time ago. Nov 09 21:59:56 I just wish I had the GSM knowlege to do it myself :( Nov 09 22:00:35 mwester: when dealing with GSM knowledge isnt as much help as basically just trying it Nov 09 22:03:37 mwester: I considered doing some work on gsmd, but instead I chose to try to figure out the Hammerhead protocol. Wrong choice, probably... Nov 09 22:04:18 That's debatable. Currently we have a gsmd that sort of works, but we have no gps driver at all. :( Nov 09 22:06:59 emdete: have you tried the gsmd tree at http://folks.o-hand.com/andrew/gsmd.git ? Nov 09 22:07:46 I thought you guys were making good progress on the protocol but then it sort of dried up Nov 09 22:08:02 Because the promise of future fame dried up. Nov 09 22:08:36 If there were going to be many thousands of GTA02 with HH - it was worth probably continuing on the project Nov 09 22:09:12 with maybe 1-200 people at most interested in using it only on the GTA01, and probably several hundred hours more work... Nov 09 22:09:19 * balrog-kun looked at pH5's notes on the protocol today and it seemed only some small details were left to figure out already Nov 09 22:09:34 Well - no. Nov 09 22:09:39 Gaping huge details. Nov 09 22:09:51 At the moment - assuming it's the notes I'm thinkin of. Nov 09 22:10:13 We can in principle get 1000Km positions within 5m Nov 09 22:10:19 We can in principle get 1000Km positions within 15min. Nov 09 22:10:34 We have no clue as to how the navigation bits are recieved Nov 09 22:11:20 Which is a really big issue. Nov 09 22:15:22 My problem is that the Hammerhead doesn't respond the way it "should" based on the traces I've seen Nov 09 22:15:58 In one mode it works fine, I can measure the satellite signals. But when I set 1 bit in register 0x03 I always lose the signal. Nov 09 22:16:45 have you been comparing with straces of the gll binary? Nov 09 22:18:36 sorry, was one phone Nov 09 22:18:36 I've looked at various traces, including those from http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin/ Nov 09 22:18:42 (daily mom yelling) Nov 09 22:18:58 mmontour: that's the same traces i looked at Nov 09 22:20:12 The measurements where register 0x03 is 0x40000720 or similar work fine, but not where the high bit's set (0xc05c1702, etc). Nov 09 22:20:57 mmontour: do you immediately lose signal or does it drift away? Nov 09 22:21:34 some reverse engineering guru just needs to "look" inside gllin binary :-) Nov 09 22:21:58 * pH5 shivers. Nov 09 22:22:13 When I set the trigger (0x00006040 to register 08) there's a delay of > 1 second and then I get results packets at the "noise" level. Nov 09 22:22:24 mickeyl, thanks for committing ipkgorphan :) Nov 09 22:23:07 (where "level" is the value in the upper bits of register 0x11 in the response packet) Nov 09 22:27:15 abraxa_: you around still??? Nov 09 22:27:19 hiff --connect xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx Can't get device information: host is down Nov 09 22:27:32 whats wrong with my keyboard? Nov 09 22:27:50 ack... hidd --connect of corse Nov 09 22:28:03 out of battery/? Nov 09 22:28:18 just switched on Nov 09 22:28:18 have you already paired it with the phone? Nov 09 22:28:25 led is blinking Nov 09 22:28:33 hmmm.... that should do it, then. Nov 09 22:28:39 Try hidd --scan instead Nov 09 22:28:58 did hcitool scan Nov 09 22:29:04 xzcvczx: Yup Nov 09 22:30:18 hcitool scan is detecting my laptop and my keyboard Nov 09 22:30:28 but will not connect with this strange error Nov 09 22:31:53 abraxa_: did you see that tupor was getting ilegal instruction trying to use your wrapper Nov 09 22:33:00 * * OM Bug 1003 has been created by mwester(AT)dls.net Nov 09 22:33:01 * * GSM modem is not powered down when Linux is shut down Nov 09 22:33:02 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1003 Nov 09 22:33:54 xzcvczx: #1 - it's Shoragan's ;) #2 yeah but he's too busy to debug it atm, so... Nov 09 22:35:07 abraxa_: well since you are distributing it then under consumer laws we have full right to come after you over it if the manufacturer is stonewalling us :P Nov 09 22:35:30 xzcvczx: That won't happen - it doesn't contain the gllin binary Nov 09 22:35:59 no i am not talking about distributing unlicensend programs i am talking about non working stuff Nov 09 22:37:33 but meh Nov 09 22:38:29 lol Nov 09 22:38:46 The libs work just fine for me Nov 09 22:38:58 ~seen roh Nov 09 22:39:02 roh is currently on #oe (1d 18h 26m 49s) #openmoko (1d 18h 26m 49s). Has said a total of 14 messages. Is idling for 3h 23m 30s, last said: '(and lads is we really have ones)'. Nov 09 22:39:14 abraxa_: so you can just run start_dump and it all works fine? Nov 09 22:39:25 ? Nov 09 22:39:29 Yup Nov 09 22:39:31 There he is. Nov 09 22:39:40 roh: ah finally, dang timezones Nov 09 22:40:33 well.. timezones and beeing a geek with unfixable messed up sleeping patterns (if you can call that still a pattern) Nov 09 22:40:42 -e Nov 09 22:40:49 mickeyl: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1003 Nov 09 22:41:27 roh: my the touch part of my screen has stopped working properly, have done the cat device test nothing coming up unless i touch the screen, have messed round with xtscal,ts_test,ts_cal, and they all dont work too well ts_test shows big areas i cant get to and radical movements when i move the pen to some places of the screen. any ideas? Nov 09 22:41:29 mwester, this brings me a little closer to understand the workings of gsmd :-) Nov 09 22:42:34 roh: have tried reseating the display connected (about 20 times as the other 19 times the display stopped working as well) Nov 09 22:42:36 xzcvczx hmm.. not really.. have you tried carefully reseating the fpc going to the screen? Nov 09 22:42:39 ah.. ok Nov 09 22:42:55 It's a frightening world down there, what with the normal linux serial port stuff and the GTA01 mux, plus the odd wiring of the GSM modem itself. But it can all be made to work. Nov 09 22:43:04 weird. but the fpc is still in one piece and not damaged, right? Nov 09 22:43:09 correct Nov 09 22:43:28 mwester wel.. thats why gta02 has a serial more and no stupid dual-use-console anymore Nov 09 22:43:31 roh: its the one the comes from one side of the board to the othe? Nov 09 22:43:38 s/othe/other Nov 09 22:43:56 japp. it is propably with a shielding tape aboxe it Nov 09 22:44:07 roh: yup thats the one Nov 09 22:44:30 s/aboxe/above/g *sigh* umts lag is killing me Nov 09 22:44:42 is there the possibility that my bluetooth keyboard needs a special proprietary driver and will not run under linux? Nov 09 22:44:43 lol Nov 09 22:44:49 josch: no Nov 09 22:44:49 same results on my ubuntu pc Nov 09 22:44:57 josch: bluetooth is completely stock linu Nov 09 22:45:08 josch: it works same way as it does on any linux PC Nov 09 22:45:19 josch there are some bt keyboards that are not adhering any standart ive heard Nov 09 22:45:21 i get the same error on ubuntu Nov 09 22:45:39 some are even not hid but something ugly like a serial only or even worse Nov 09 22:45:41 "Can't open input device: No such file or directory (2)" Nov 09 22:45:53 f***... Nov 09 22:46:00 xzcvczx: any big scratches on the touchscreen? Nov 09 22:46:07 SpeedEvil: nope Nov 09 22:46:21 no scratches at all that i can see Nov 09 22:46:36 what can I do now to check what the issue is? Nov 09 22:47:23 josch: I misread that 'no' was that the GTA01 does not do anything special with bluetooth - it's of course possible that it doesn't work with linux, sorry Nov 09 22:47:52 gnaaa.... :-/ Nov 09 22:48:03 roh: oh well i have to go now if you think of anything can you just pm it to me cos this will stay online, thanks Nov 09 22:48:32 xzcvczx hm.. currently i have no idea besides broken hw... where are you located? Nov 09 22:49:34 xzcvczx: I assume you've tried turning it off and turning it on again? Nov 09 22:49:53 nz Nov 09 22:52:16 out Nov 09 22:56:55 everything I have to do to connect my bluetooth keyboard is "hcitool scan" and "hidd --connect xx:..." or is there anything else? Nov 09 23:00:43 josch: that should do it. Nov 09 23:01:40 seems I have to sell it... :-/ Nov 09 23:38:13 * CM got quite a few beers Nov 09 23:38:40 oh Nov 09 23:38:42 nice Nov 09 23:39:15 sup all Nov 09 23:39:21 we have massive ammounts of "chips och dip" here Nov 09 23:39:36 what is chips och dip? Nov 09 23:40:31 potatoe-chips Nov 09 23:41:05 oh Nov 09 23:42:10 I sneaked into an Ericsson party Nov 09 23:42:16 And they all tried to hire me.. :P Nov 09 23:42:20 oh Nov 09 23:42:25 cool Nov 09 23:43:51 CM: lol... nice. What's your profession? Nov 09 23:43:57 Consultant Nov 09 23:44:16 I'm already changing job to Stockholm, so I wasn't interested Nov 09 23:44:31 (Programming that is) Nov 09 23:45:17 isnt stockholm a town country whatever in europe? Nov 09 23:46:13 sweden? Nov 09 23:46:58 It's the capital of Sweden. Nov 09 23:46:59 stockholm is almost only ericsson Nov 09 23:47:19 but swedish people buy nokia Nov 09 23:47:51 orly Nov 09 23:48:17 Yes, .se :) Nov 09 23:54:02 PITABoy, isnt los angeles a town country whatever in america? :-D Nov 09 23:54:11 yes Nov 09 23:54:38 i just suck at geography Nov 09 23:54:45 i was making sure Nov 09 23:54:57 Hehe Nov 10 00:02:05 so whats up Nov 10 00:02:35 yeah, realy, what is up? Nov 10 00:03:08 does anyone know if openmoko has any support for cdma or 3rd party support for cdma or an even beter question does anyone know if any linux distro can make a call on cdma? Nov 10 00:03:51 cdma is not gsm Nov 10 00:03:56 i know Nov 10 00:03:58 the neo is a gsm-phone Nov 10 00:04:13 i know but openmoko is software not hardware Nov 10 00:04:18 the neo is hardware Nov 10 00:04:36 openmoko runs on quite a few devices about 7 or 8 Nov 10 00:04:51 if you get om on a cdma-phone, and cdma-modem works similary to gsm-modem then maby Nov 10 00:05:23 cool and you can make voice calls with gsm-modem Nov 10 00:06:02 gsm vs cdma? Nov 10 00:07:39 basically any possible cdma support in openmoko is accidental and a product of some cdma chip offering a similar AT interface as the GSM chips... Nov 10 00:07:49 if such things exist Nov 10 00:11:58 is there even cdma outside of the us? Nov 10 00:13:42 Japan and some random countries. Though compatibility isn't given. Nov 10 00:17:38 do they have gsm in japan, or only cdma? Nov 10 00:18:15 No gsm. They do apparently have some umts nowadays. Nov 10 00:27:20 hm, having the modem on a separate plug-in-ish chip.. Nov 10 00:27:38 zash, no Nov 10 00:28:04 well, yes of course but you get a nice boost in size and all Nov 10 00:28:39 might as well make a PDA with a cardbus slot for mobile access ;) Nov 10 00:28:52 PCI is more flexible. Nov 10 00:29:19 mjr japan is phs/cdma/3g only. no 2g-gsm coverage at all Nov 10 00:29:37 yes that's why I said "no gsm" :) Nov 10 00:30:15 sleep now, anyway Nov 10 00:30:31 the problem with cdma in general is that r-uim seem only to exist as single occurances, and not generic. so getting a cdma-phone working needs support from the carrier Nov 10 00:31:23 the provisioning is done directly onto the phone, no chipcard usually. the chipcard case (r-uim) is so seldom that most cdma devices do not even have a slot for it Nov 10 00:31:39 gnome-power-manager says "Laptop battery 25 minutes remaining (21%)" Nov 10 00:37:28 now sleep Nov 10 00:37:53 Good plan ;) Nov 10 00:55:09 I dropped my Neo :-( and the AUX button no longer works. Nov 10 00:55:22 yay payday today (i can now officially afford a neo!) Nov 10 00:55:30 lol Nov 10 00:55:42 okay so i lie, i can afford several :( Nov 10 00:55:48 but it feels better to spend money right as they come in Nov 10 00:55:54 yay payday on the 15 and I already spent it! Nov 10 00:55:54 looking in the plastic button piece, there is a slot on the inside. was there a magnet in the slot? Nov 10 00:55:57 that way i wont notice having less money Nov 10 00:57:00 because techically i'l have more money, and i get a new shiny thing to play with! Nov 10 00:57:43 clever! Nov 10 00:58:03 DukeOfURL: Nope, no magnet Nov 10 00:58:13 DukeOfURL: Maybe it's just misaligned Nov 10 00:58:24 flexd: i think the federal economy of a couple of countries works this way too Nov 10 01:07:32 balrog-kun: im sure they are successful countries.. Nov 10 01:07:46 anyway, tired, so bbl sleeps and such \o Nov 10 01:12:23 i'm not so sure Nov 10 01:19:04 hey, does anybody know off the top of their head how the AMR transcoding is handled? Is that on the GSM chip? Nov 10 01:23:18 transcoding as in voice transcoding when it is sent to the cell towers??? Nov 10 01:23:43 well, before it's sent, and after it's received. It would have to go to wav before hitting the speakers. Nov 10 01:23:52 if so it depends on the phone Nov 10 01:24:08 it needs a processor to transcode Nov 10 01:25:00 the GSM module does all of that Nov 10 01:25:08 my phone has a seperate processor for transcoding/and other communication tasks and one for the os Nov 10 01:25:11 the GSM module takes a microphone and a speaker signal Nov 10 01:25:17 (in the neo1973) Nov 10 01:25:21 analog Nov 10 01:25:23 the gsm module is a processor Nov 10 01:25:24 and that's it. Nov 10 01:25:32 Is that ability accessible from userspace? Nov 10 01:25:34 No, but it contains one. Nov 10 01:25:37 ie; can I give it wav, and get back amr? Nov 10 01:25:38 Qwell: what? Nov 10 01:25:51 i thought that the gsm module would just interface between the mic/speaker and the processor Nov 10 01:25:53 or is it more like "here's audio - make a call"? Nov 10 01:25:55 Qwell: you can only give it analog audio Nov 10 01:25:56 Qwell: i'm afraid you can't Nov 10 01:26:00 and get back analog audio Nov 10 01:26:03 shame Nov 10 01:26:10 you cannot get at the encoded data Nov 10 01:26:21 okay, thanks Nov 10 01:26:25 at least not easily Nov 10 01:26:30 I'm pondering UMA :) Nov 10 01:26:37 You can't do UMA Nov 10 01:26:43 it might be done in software, but it woudl be software that runs on the GSM chip Nov 10 01:26:44 not currently Nov 10 01:26:48 without at least unrevealed support from TI Nov 10 01:26:58 hence the pondering :) Nov 10 01:27:38 I'm actually very seriously considering writing an LGPL UMA library. Nov 10 01:27:58 I spent half the day today reading the 3GPP spec (44.318) Nov 10 01:28:44 the only real problem I'm facing so far is a way to (legally) transcode AMR on devices. Nov 10 01:29:34 well, and the whole SIM authentication stuff Nov 10 01:30:16 Qwell: ffmpeg and being outside the US should get you AMR Nov 10 01:30:23 sladen: yes, I know Nov 10 01:30:35 the AMR codec itself won't be difficult. Nov 10 01:30:48 it's just the patent crap Nov 10 01:31:15 Qwell: and the SIM auth stuff is nothing more than bitbanging an ISO smart-card Nov 10 01:31:31 sladen: explain? Nov 10 01:31:51 surely you can't do the auth properly just by having read access? I assume there is some sort of exec required Nov 10 01:32:05 Qwell: which, the living in Europe where software patents are technically not allowed Nov 10 01:32:25 Qwell: or how to interface to a standard ISO smart-card with the corners cut off? Nov 10 01:32:41 sladen: huh? Nov 10 01:32:45 oh, the sim part Nov 10 01:32:49 I'm confused too Nov 10 01:33:50 if you could explain the sim auth stuff, that would be awesome. that's been a big thing in the back of my mind while reading these specs Nov 10 01:34:55 in the case of the Neo, the modem completely hides the SIM, there's no direct access to the serial lines running to it Nov 10 01:35:31 sladen: you mentioned a smart-card with the corners cut off.. I assume you mean you can still auth with a normal card reader? Nov 10 01:36:11 when you go to the shop and by "a SIM card", you recieve a credit-card sized ISO smart-card Nov 10 01:36:37 if you pick up older 10year old GSM phones you will find that this is the size of slot they contain Nov 10 01:36:57 Huh! Nov 10 01:37:17 so, there is no "execute this and give me an auth code to send to the provider" built-in to a SIM? Nov 10 01:37:21 so previously the size of a phone was limited by the spec for an ISO smart card. Nov 10 01:37:51 the genius idea was to cut the corners off and have just the package containing the contains---thus we now have smaller phones Nov 10 01:38:09 hence, there's nothing special about talking to "a SIM card" Nov 10 01:38:11 so - here's the problem I'm facing. In order to do UMA/GAN, you need to setup an IPsec tunnel with the provider. While doing the setup, you have to do "SIM authentication" Nov 10 01:38:32 EAP/SIM ? Nov 10 01:38:35 that would simply be reading some bits from the SIM, and doing some voodoo to them? Nov 10 01:38:41 umm, I believe so Nov 10 01:39:15 Qwell: the current TI firmware will not do UMA' Nov 10 01:39:24 SpeedEvil: yes, I understand Nov 10 01:39:37 this would be a standalone library Nov 10 01:40:28 (by TI, I assume you mean the GSM chip) Nov 10 01:42:16 itr's a TI calypsi chipset Nov 10 01:42:19 Qwell: your bankcard/simcard/etc have methods (several) for sending sending a number to the smart-card and having the smart-card perform a secret hash on the number and return you can other number Nov 10 01:42:43 Calypso Nov 10 01:42:55 sladen: So, I guess the question I'm asking, is whether a standard smart-card reader/writer would be able to do this Nov 10 01:43:09 Qwell: yes. Nov 10 01:43:34 so it's basically just write some magic bits, and then read some magic bits back? Nov 10 01:43:59 that's perfect Nov 10 01:44:44 it's a serial port. You speak a language down it, and then query for replies back. The functions/actions are encoded using a binary-based protocol Nov 10 01:45:01 ahh, I figured it was just a storage device. that makes more sense Nov 10 01:45:21 or, rather, the interface being just a storage device (like CF) Nov 10 01:45:56 though I guess even in the case of CF, it's not a "storage device" either.. okay, I get it Nov 10 01:46:57 no, but there are functions to access, list, and store to the files contained on the smart card Nov 10 01:47:08 gotcha Nov 10 01:47:39 so that gets rid of the only technical hurdle - the only hurdle (in the US..) is the licensing one Nov 10 01:47:54 (which at this point, as far as I'm concerned, isn't an issue) Nov 10 01:49:58 uh huh. Nov 10 01:50:00 So, does the GSM chip also do SIM access? Nov 10 01:50:04 (on the Neo) Nov 10 01:51:02 The only connections the SIM has on the Neo is to the GSM modem. Nov 10 01:51:10 k Nov 10 01:51:33 that still doesn't make UMA impossible Nov 10 01:51:35 if you go on ebay, you'll find tonnes of USB smartcard/"sim card" readers Nov 10 01:51:39 just a little more...difficult Nov 10 01:51:46 the Neo has a USB port, right? :) Nov 10 01:52:03 does the neo have a place for an SD card? Nov 10 01:52:20 pull the SIM from the built-in reader, put it into a USB reader, and do your UMA stuff Nov 10 01:52:53 matthew__: micro sd is behind the sim card. Nov 10 01:53:05 mwester: good, that's the answer i was hoping for Nov 10 01:53:41 Qwell: USB is provided. If you need "closer" to the device, there are solder pads for the i2c and/or SPI bus (one or both of those, I forget the details). Nov 10 01:57:16 Qwell: to make GAN work, *you* (either yourself, or the operator) has to control both ends of the connection, so that the rerouteing can take place Nov 10 01:57:44 eh? Nov 10 01:58:15 Qwell: if you control both ends, it's possible to do roaming now using a call that gets switched between being carried over VoIP over IP, or over circuit switched GSM Nov 10 01:58:35 oh, sure. At this point, I'm not going to be implementing handover Nov 10 01:58:52 You can simply say "I don't see any towers - can't help you" Nov 10 02:00:20 normally, you'd get a packet that says "scan for GSM towers, and tell me what you see". The phone does so, and sends it what it finds. In my case, I'll just say "sure, I scanned, but there is nothing in range" Nov 10 02:00:57 in the future, your phone will have a 2.75G radio and then a tonne of high-speed radios (bluetooth, 802.11, wifimax, WCDMA) suitable for starting high-speed IP packet connections over Nov 10 02:01:13 the GSM radio will just be there for fallback Nov 10 02:01:20 yeah Nov 10 02:03:49 abraxa_: I see the pad where the switch was mounted, but no switch. No switch in the case, on the desk, or on the floor. Mystery. Nov 10 02:06:11 i made a little diagram thing of some features i think would be good for openmoko http://bmk789.dyndns.org/bmk/openmoko.jpeg , im going to type it all out but where should i send it? Nov 10 02:06:32 bmk789: there is a wishlist on the wiki Nov 10 02:06:47 maybe something off of that? Nov 10 02:07:00 Qwell: thanks ill check it out Nov 10 02:07:15 bmk789: wiki Nov 10 02:07:16 bmk789: bro, get Dia quickly Nov 10 02:07:34 what? Nov 10 02:07:35 probably better it was done on paper first Nov 10 02:07:48 Dia Diagram editor Nov 10 02:07:59 ah Nov 10 02:08:21 or inkscae Nov 10 02:08:24 inkscape Nov 10 02:08:36 or umbrello Nov 10 02:09:06 didn't know inkscape did diagrams Nov 10 02:10:28 thanks Nov 10 02:10:39 sladen: thanks again for the help - you shed a lot of light on things :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 10 02:59:56 2007