**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Nov 24 02:59:57 2007 Nov 24 03:46:19 Is there anyone online who has been able to get their neo1973 to work reliably as a phone in the US (ignoring the 850 fiasco, of course)? Nov 24 03:51:22 For some definition of "reliably", perhaps. But not for mine. Nov 24 03:51:29 Taco: it works Ok using qtopia and quite well from command line. major issues ATM are power management Nov 24 03:52:09 battery like is only a few hours which makes it virtually unusable as a phone Nov 24 03:52:22 Thanks. Do you know which service provider works well with qtopia? Nov 24 03:52:45 you can really only use it on t-mobile since their network is 1900 Nov 24 03:53:05 you won't be able to roam into the AT&T 850 cells Nov 24 03:53:05 Yes - the battery life is only ~1 day with the phone OFF, so I know it's sorta silly. Nov 24 03:53:43 once suspend/resume is working it will be usable as a phone for basic voice and very basic SMS Nov 24 03:53:53 using qtopia and probably OM as well by then Nov 24 03:54:10 The "phone off" problem is fixed, but not yet incorporated into the main builds. But it lacks what is traditionally called "standby" Nov 24 03:54:14 Do you need to get the 3G fix to get it to work with T=Mobile? I have both T-Mobil and AT&T SIMs and I've managed a couple of calls with the AT&T SIM, but absolutely nothing with the T-mobile SIM." Nov 24 03:54:59 all of my t-mobile SIM's work but they are a few years old. Nov 24 03:55:13 That's probably the key. Nov 24 03:55:37 2op "I need to mug someone with an old cell phone. I can't get T-Mobile to give me an old SIM. Nov 24 03:55:46 just dont try a usim Nov 24 03:55:57 What's a usim? Nov 24 03:57:11 Taco: there appears to be a bug in the firmware that gets confused with usim's. USIMs support both 3G and GSM Nov 24 03:57:12 DO you know the name of a non-main build that has the phone-off problem fixed? Nov 24 03:57:52 Taco: that bug is supposedly fixed - see the wiki - and you can arrange for a firmware update. Nov 24 03:58:19 Thanks for the info! Nov 24 03:58:21 i suspect there will be more firmware updates required before everything is fully working. Nov 24 03:58:21 There's none pre-built just yet (because I'm lazy, mainly). You can add the startup/shutdown script that powers off the GSM modem yourself, it's in the buzilla bug report (1003, I think?) Nov 24 03:58:45 Gente, flws !! AtÃĐ mais ... Farewell !! Nov 24 03:58:59 rule of them - if you haven't tested it it's probably broken. Nov 24 03:59:04 s/them/thumb/ Nov 24 03:59:05 Writchie meant: rule of thumb - if you haven't tested it it's probably broken. Nov 24 04:00:11 Oh, here's another thing I'm too stupid to figure out. All the lists of AT commands intended to coax the phone to life mention a PIN. What is that PIN? My SIMs have a phone number associated with them, but no PIN, so far as I know. Nov 24 04:00:15 OM hasn't yet understood verification and validation - there are signs this may soon change Nov 24 04:01:04 all phones can have a PIN - in some areas its widely used and in others never used - it whould work either way Nov 24 04:01:22 theres two kinds of pins - sim and phone. Nov 24 04:01:24 there are actually two pins Nov 24 04:01:31 heh Nov 24 04:01:55 So I need to go to my service provider, and find out what the PIN is? Nov 24 04:02:04 you can set the sim pin and then you will need to enter it when you boot into the gui at first Nov 24 04:02:12 if you haven't used a PIN on your phone then you will be fine Nov 24 04:02:27 well, in Qtoia, you can set the pin from gui Nov 24 04:02:44 and then you can loose it ;) Nov 24 04:02:55 and you will then need PIN2 from your operator Nov 24 04:03:16 If I haven't used a PIN, may I just enter nothing in the various AT commands that seem to require a PIN? Nov 24 04:03:27 i wouldn't recommend playing with PINs for the first time on prototype software Nov 24 04:03:48 Taco: like what? Nov 24 04:04:35 qtopia isn't prototype software :) Nov 24 04:04:52 not compared to OM, no... Nov 24 04:04:56 =) Nov 24 04:06:35 Well, take for example, the recent, triumphant posting by Mikkel Andersen, where he points to a blog entry describing how he make a call. His list of commands includes "AT+CPIN="x" Nov 24 04:07:40 thats hardcore Nov 24 04:07:45 All the endless lists of AT commands people have posted to show how they kicked the phone into operation seem to have a PIN command like that. So what do you do if all you know if the phone number associated with the SIM? Nov 24 04:07:49 Taco: you don't need this command if the SIM hasn't been setup for a PIN Nov 24 04:07:57 Great! Nov 24 04:08:46 Thanks very much for your help, Writchie. Nov 24 04:10:07 Taco: np - AT+CPIN? will tell you if you need a PIN Nov 24 04:18:02 When I issue "AT+CPIN?", I get "ERROR" as the return. Does that mean I have no PIN (I hope!)? Nov 24 04:18:22 isn't CPIN? the "has SIM" query Nov 24 04:18:39 in a way Nov 24 04:18:53 I definately have a SIM... Nov 24 04:18:58 probably does more than that. I'm totally not a GPRS radio guy. Nov 24 04:19:00 Taco: just plain ERROR? Nov 24 04:19:08 Yup Nov 24 04:19:24 that's not a SIM problem. Nov 24 04:19:41 s/SIM/PIN/ Nov 24 04:19:41 Writchie meant: that's not a PIN problem. Nov 24 04:19:55 "ATE1" gives, "OK", so I must be talking to something. Nov 24 04:20:13 Taco: that means you are talking to the modem. Nov 24 04:20:14 do AT Nov 24 04:20:25 CIMI Nov 24 04:20:31 "AT" gives "OK" Nov 24 04:20:42 AT+CIMI Nov 24 04:21:12 "AT+CIMI" gives "ERROR" Nov 24 04:21:16 that means you sim is probably bad. Nov 24 04:21:32 2op "Is there a wikki page that describes the functions of all these AT commands? Nov 24 04:21:44 do an AT+CMEE=2 Nov 24 04:22:08 "AT+CMEE=2" gives "OK" Nov 24 04:22:26 then repeat the AT+CIMI Nov 24 04:22:50 do you get _CME ERROR: xxxx Nov 24 04:23:01 s/_CME/+CME/ Nov 24 04:23:03 Writchie meant: do you get +CME ERROR: xxxx Nov 24 04:23:08 "AT+CIMI" now gives "+CME ERROR: SIM failure" Nov 24 04:23:45 it either means an incompatible USIM or no making good contact with the SIM card itself Nov 24 04:23:51 s/no/not/ Nov 24 04:24:04 Writchie meant: it either means an incompatible USIM or not making good contact with the SIM card itself Nov 24 04:24:17 This SIM sorta worked with the neo until I upgraded to 2007.2 It's been completely dead since then. Nov 24 04:24:40 that would not likely make any difference. Nov 24 04:25:08 I'll try recontacting. Is there somewhere I could read up on these AT commands? Is it a well-know protocol? Nov 24 04:25:11 the sim holder is not the best design and easily damaged. Nov 24 04:25:25 Yes, I sure agree with that. Nov 24 04:25:38 you can dl the AT specs Nov 24 04:25:48 From where? Nov 24 04:25:49 for gsm Nov 24 04:26:14 http://webapp.etsi.org/key/queryform.asp Nov 24 04:26:49 GSM 7.07 7.05 7.10 and a stack of other a mile high Nov 24 04:27:33 gsm is a very deep rabbit hole - you might want to pick the red pill Nov 24 04:27:45 http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/27007.htm Nov 24 04:27:48 i think Nov 24 04:28:32 Gee - when I originally saw AT... I thought it was just the old Hayes modem protocol! Nov 24 04:29:07 Taco: it is with extensions and extension plus extensions added to extensions. Nov 24 04:29:45 http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/27_series/27.007/27007-810.zip Nov 24 04:29:48 Wow! Old code never dies, no matter how brain-dead it is. Nov 24 04:30:36 would you rather use an ad-hoc API to the radio stack? Nov 24 04:31:01 I gotta say, I don't think I'd be any more confused... Nov 24 04:31:43 unfortunately, to deeply understand all of the commands you need to understand much more about how gsm works internally. Nov 24 04:32:12 fortunately, its all free and open documentation. Nov 24 04:32:20 I'd have to understand much more to understand very little. Nov 24 04:33:40 Taco: in practise, it will all be eventually abstracted - like qtopia, symbion, windows mobile, etc. Nov 24 04:34:26 without this clean interface, however, there would be little hope for an open platform. Nov 24 04:34:58 I know it's easy to cast stones, but it's baffling to me that 4 months after the neo1973 was launched, the OM stack still doesn't really handle the GSM interface. Nov 24 04:35:36 well, a phone software stack typically takes about 1.5 - 2 years from definition to shipping product. Nov 24 04:36:02 that is by people who know what they are doing and have done it before. Nov 24 04:36:46 What is it about the phone stack which is so hard? Why can't the OM folks clone what qtopia has done, which by all accounts sorta works? Nov 24 04:36:51 this 1.5 - 2 years is normally invisible - with OM you get to see it. Nov 24 04:37:11 ask ljp: how long it took qtopia to do their platform? Nov 24 04:38:00 But since the qtopia stack works, can't OM build on their work? Nov 24 04:38:23 long time. its still lacking stuff.. gsm and all is a heap of stuff Nov 24 04:38:24 Taco: you can run qtopia if you like. Nov 24 04:38:54 when OM decided to do this, qtopia phone stack wasnt gpl Nov 24 04:39:39 Yes, but I prefer OM. I'm just surprised that after so many years of cell phones being around, one still has to work for 1.5 years to get one going. It's astonishing to me. Nov 24 04:40:25 fwiw, I'm using the OM stack as a phone. Have to init from -m shell, the battery life sucks, and it isn't entirely stable, but the calls do work... Nov 24 04:40:33 It's like saying that it takes 1.5->2 years to produce a BIOS for a new laptop. Nov 24 04:41:14 Taco: look at the GSM specs and you will get an idea. Nov 24 04:41:21 so, why do you guys prefer phone software that barely works over software what works and is mature? Nov 24 04:41:48 it's a continusouly evolving system Nov 24 04:42:07 qtopia/neo wasn't all that great either, and with that you're restricted to qtopia stuff Nov 24 04:42:42 For me, it's because I'm really primarly interested in the neo for the GPS (boo hoo), and I've already written some aps that run on the OM platform. I'm just too lazy to port my aps to qtopia, but maybe I should. Nov 24 04:43:02 nah, why bother ;) Nov 24 04:43:05 mjr: whats not so good about it? Nov 24 04:44:00 It wasn't ever-stable either, though better than moko at the time. Nov 24 04:44:14 text input sucked more than mokos, imao Nov 24 04:44:34 and of course I do like my X server Nov 24 04:45:24 you dont like the predictive keyboard? Nov 24 04:47:37 or full screen handwriting? Nov 24 04:47:56 didn't notice handwriting Nov 24 04:48:06 (don't like it though) Nov 24 04:49:12 may or may not have been included Nov 24 04:49:40 mmh. Seems like everyone's handwriting engines are proprietary Nov 24 04:49:46 luckily not my preference Nov 24 04:50:32 * mwester will bump qtopia up 5 notches if/when it gets an xterm-like application Nov 24 04:51:06 Until then, it's closed -- just in another sense of the word. Nov 24 04:51:17 I suspect those should be available, but didn't bother to look... Nov 24 04:51:31 but yeah, my OM session does start a terminal automagically Nov 24 04:52:40 why do you need a term on a phone? Nov 24 04:52:50 a built-in means to access a shell is a sign of open-ness -- all means other than that are just another way of "hacking into" a closed vendor app, regardless of how the vendor app is licensed. Nov 24 04:53:08 no. you can qccess ssh Nov 24 04:53:44 I need that to do things that I cannot predict in advance, and therefore you cannot write a gui for it. And I wish to do it using the touch-screen or built-in keyboard, because I may not have a laptop or other computer nearby. Nov 24 04:53:57 mwester, indeed Nov 24 04:54:08 (or my <3 bt keypad) Nov 24 04:54:47 what phone like things do you need to do from a term? Nov 24 04:55:18 I'm not thinking of the neo as a "phone" -- I can buy a phone that does only phone-like things at the local AT&T store. Nov 24 04:55:27 indeed Nov 24 04:55:29 For a lot less money, I might add. :) Nov 24 04:55:46 (though sshing to my irssi box is a phone-like thing) Nov 24 04:55:48 The neo is my personal, portable, linux computer. Nov 24 04:55:57 mwester: plus phone Nov 24 04:56:01 (at least for _me_) Nov 24 04:56:15 having a working terminal app w/ root access is kind of an psychological thing Nov 24 04:56:41 I'd like it to do PDA-like things, but I'm buying it to do things that most people would consider ridiculous. I might even wish to write C code and compile it while on the commuter train in the mornings. Nov 24 04:58:09 I *can* do that on many things -- by "hacking the vendor's firmware". Qtopia falls into that category. OpenMoko, if it ever really happens, holds the promise to be truely open, by embracing people like me who wish to do things they can't even imagine doing on the device. :) Nov 24 04:58:46 and qtopia doesnt embrace that because troltlech doesn;t supply a term app? Nov 24 04:58:51 coding using a touch screen would be .... irritating Nov 24 04:59:24 I don't find qtopia embracing on that level Nov 24 04:59:32 ljp: That's the first and biggest barrier at the moment. Others claim that the lack of an X server is a problem, but I can't even get that far. Nov 24 05:00:05 doc|home: well - you could find a bug and make a quick patch without being too irritating. Nov 24 05:00:10 * mjr does, again, like his X server Nov 24 05:00:12 well, i dont see how lacking x is a problem/barrier to community embracement Nov 24 05:00:30 mjr: what do you do with you neo X? Nov 24 05:00:41 rather, thats x specific? Nov 24 05:00:43 I don't either, I'm just repeating what I've heard. Nov 24 05:00:47 using your own system is an unwelcome tie-in Nov 24 05:01:08 writing to the fb is using our own system? Nov 24 05:01:26 on the same level, X uses its own system as well, you could say Nov 24 05:01:42 I suspect that xterm won't work due to the lack of X, so that might be a challenge. Nov 24 05:01:58 Is there a qtterm? Nov 24 05:02:02 * CoreDump kindly points out that is is _way_ more generic and wide-spread than QT Nov 24 05:02:03 so far I've ran x11vnc for presentations, otherwise ran stuff remote, but the real point is not having to port every piece to qtopia Nov 24 05:02:08 well, a v term is not impossible for qtoia, there was embeddedkonsole in qtopia 2 Nov 24 05:02:11 *X Nov 24 05:02:12 ljp, now you're being disingenious Nov 24 05:02:37 no, I am not. just picking your brain Nov 24 05:03:33 Well,my brain is rather simple and obvious. But wash your hands before you mess about with my brain! :D Nov 24 05:03:39 mjr: well, if its a Qt apps, the port is simple. Nov 24 05:03:54 Writchie: I think it'd be hard to bug fix, I mean, I have a nokia n800 and typing using a terminal isn't something enjoyable. I'd consider it a limitation of the hardware :/ Nov 24 05:03:56 ljp, again you scream tie-in Nov 24 05:04:18 and om using gtk/X isn;t also a tie in? Nov 24 05:04:22 doc|home: I'm willing to carry a bluetooth fold-up keyboard. I have one for my treo. Nov 24 05:04:25 no, no it isn't Nov 24 05:04:28 X isn't a tie-in Nov 24 05:04:32 mwester: probably a help ;) Nov 24 05:04:46 * ljp doesnt see the real difference Nov 24 05:05:01 got myself a nice new keyboard (Mickysoft Natural 4000) Nov 24 05:05:10 ljp, well then to make a long story short, you're too much of a fool for me to waste my time talking to you Nov 24 05:05:19 ha Nov 24 05:05:28 have fun in qtverse Nov 24 05:05:32 mwester: still, how about just getting some music and sitting back and relaxing? Not like people aren't rushing about too much as it is and you won't get that time back from the company :) Nov 24 05:05:33 doc|home: you pretty much can always have the phone - so you could do this in a pinch. Nov 24 05:05:33 ok i do Nov 24 05:06:04 mmm qtverse for breakfast Nov 24 05:06:07 Writchie: sure, but a constant thing on the way to work every day and I'd go mental, besides, would distract me from looking at the girls on the bus. Can't be having that, Nov 24 05:06:11 Linux_Galore: I got a new keyboard too a compact Cherry Nov 24 05:06:25 ljp: cherry is pretty sweet Nov 24 05:06:54 Google of Qt and console comes up with nothing that looks like a terminal emulator. :( Nov 24 05:07:04 konsole Nov 24 05:07:09 Ive been using ergonic keyboards for so long now I cant use a normal 101 Nov 24 05:07:10 but tha uses kde as well Nov 24 05:07:16 mwester, if one were optimistic, it'd be because a console and a terminal window have nothing in common ;] Nov 24 05:07:19 embeddedkonsole was based on kde Nov 24 05:07:35 ergonomic* Nov 24 05:07:41 s/window/program/, whatever Nov 24 05:08:40 sheesh, whats this, my widget set is better than yours, who cares OM went with gtk and QTopia are doing a port for the OM, both should work fine and be pretty decent Nov 24 05:08:49 Konsole... ok, creative spelling. That's cool. So does it emulate the classic term types, or at least the ubiquitious vt100/ansi types? And what's involved in putting it in the qtopia image for the Neo? Nov 24 05:09:16 Linux_Galore, the widget set thing was quite secondary. Nov 24 05:09:17 konsole 4 would need to be de-kde'd Nov 24 05:09:19 FYI Im a QT person Nov 24 05:09:34 Still no source, but I presume that's just a matter of more digging. Nov 24 05:10:09 konsole is open, its in kde Nov 24 05:10:38 mjr: well Im not surprised they went with GTK is has a more license that allows binary linking without having to fork out for a license Nov 24 05:10:48 there is a port of embeddedkonsole to qtopia 4 in opieII sources, but it doesn;t exactly work. it compiles though Nov 24 05:10:51 s/is has/it has/ Nov 24 05:10:52 Linux_Galore meant: mjr: well Im not surprised they went with GTK it has a more license that allows binary linking without having to fork out for a license Nov 24 05:11:24 too bad that allows non free software on a free software phone Nov 24 05:11:40 * ljp shrugs Nov 24 05:11:58 Oh. So if it needs to be de-kde'd, that would mean that there is no terminal emulator for Qt right now? That kinda explains the entire situation, and confirms my thinking that lack of a terminal emulator on the device is a good indicator of the vendor's intention for the device... in this case, a phone "git yer grubby hackin' hands off of the innards!" application. ;) :D Nov 24 05:12:06 ...'cause Qtopia wouldn't. Oh, wait. Nov 24 05:12:10 be able to run commercial software is considered by many to be an advantage Nov 24 05:12:33 both GTK and QT have good and bad points on the licensing, Im surprised they didnt go with BSD and save themselves allot of hassles with licensing Nov 24 05:13:14 * mwester observes that every discussion re OM and Qtopia ALWAYS goes off into licensing, when the real factors are what the software can do and who can do it. Nov 24 05:14:00 mwester QT is already being used on portable phones (actually a few now) Nov 24 05:14:12 Yes. Irrelevant. Nov 24 05:14:20 well, I started asking because I wanted to understand why someone would prefer software that barely works over something that's tested and mature Nov 24 05:14:53 I don't see how an indication that QT actually works is irrelevant. Nov 24 05:14:56 ljp: I WANT something tested and mature, but I also want to use it in ways that go beyond pushing the gui buttons associated with a phone. Nov 24 05:14:57 ljp: well if they were logical they may have gone with java heh Nov 24 05:15:35 mwester yes so, You can use and change QT any way you want Nov 24 05:15:46 Wrong answer. Nov 24 05:16:05 I can do that with any device I buy. With enough effort, I can hack into any firmware. Nov 24 05:16:31 mwester eer what has hacking hardware got to do with a open QT platform Nov 24 05:16:46 The quesiton is why OM which doesn't work vs Qtopia -- the answer is that as bad as OM is, it has the promise of offering me an open door to doing what I want. With Qtopia, I have to hack into it. Nov 24 05:16:56 Linux_Galore: Read the log. Nov 24 05:17:25 mwester: simp,ly because qtopia doesn;t have a gui term? Nov 24 05:17:32 Linux_Galore: keywords involve terminal emulator, Konsole, xterm, etc. -- means of gaining access to a shell. Which are missing in Qtopia. Nov 24 05:17:42 mwester your on crack, QT is not an obfuscated platform Nov 24 05:17:43 ljp: yes, for starters. There may be more. Nov 24 05:17:58 Linux_Galore: Thank you. You're an ass too. Nov 24 05:18:25 mwester that statement is the biggest pile of FOSS horse shit I have heard in here Nov 24 05:19:17 Linux_Galore: Good bye. I can see you wish to fight rather than have a reasonable argument. Go do it with someone else. Nov 24 05:19:18 mwester the real reason they went with GTK is very simple, you can work with closed source code on the OM without looking like asses Nov 24 05:19:54 mwester no yhou just said an out and out lie, and Im calling you a liar Nov 24 05:20:54 mwester GPL and LGPL are the simple reason, ask Novell or RedHat and they will tell you thats the simple reason they went with GTK Nov 24 05:21:16 Linux_Galore is missing points, I do believe Nov 24 05:21:37 LGPL allows you to "be evil" and do it without having to "pay the man" for being evil Nov 24 05:22:22 yes thank you for your lecture on the differences of the GPL and the Lesser variant Nov 24 05:22:32 all this other horse shit about usability and hacking if you got with QT is just that, horse shit Nov 24 05:22:38 go* Nov 24 05:23:57 Your first mistake is to confuse Qt with Qtopia. Start rethinking from there. I'll try and get some sleep. Nov 24 05:24:10 its GPL, the stack is very mature and debugged and tested on open devices, it is already running on over 4 million handsets, all the GTK excuses Im seeing on the forums make me want to puke its so full of it Nov 24 05:24:41 see, there's that mistake Nov 24 05:25:11 gtk is also on handsets in China and Asia Nov 24 05:25:20 mjr: all I'm seeing is rhetoric no actual logic Nov 24 05:25:50 * CoreDump believes that someone here should rethink his vocabulary.... Nov 24 05:25:51 Linux_Galore, I'm sure that's true, just like ljp doesn't see any difference between Qtopia's display and input handling system and X Nov 24 05:26:20 you guys should get better glasses Nov 24 05:26:45 mjr: they are different but both will work with X just fine Nov 24 05:27:07 mjr: what I am saying is that there are two sides to the fence Nov 24 05:28:15 ljp, and one side is a single product tie-in, while the other is open to a shitload of existing code. Yes. Nov 24 05:28:36 ...dare I say the "s" word... Nov 24 05:28:48 you could say X is also a 'single product' then tpp Nov 24 05:28:49 too Nov 24 05:28:51 no, not shitload, the other one, whatwasit, "std" or something Nov 24 05:29:14 mjr: I wasn't talking about you ;) Nov 24 05:29:25 too be honest the OM is doomed, as off 2008 and will be able to buy a Linux phones with Linux and a open development platform (android) from companies like HTC and the thing will work and be quadband and have nice things like a fsking camera Nov 24 05:29:47 CoreDump, what if I say that ljp should go suck his momma's dick? Nov 24 05:29:56 * ljp mentions greenphone has camera Nov 24 05:30:14 ljp: for less than a bazilion dollars Nov 24 05:31:05 That would not change my opinion about this kind of language. AFAICT you are not using this language in ever 2nd sentence, which does make a difference Nov 24 05:31:40 hi all Nov 24 05:31:53 Linux_Galore, fine, what're you doing here then? Nov 24 05:32:04 if the Om guys cant get a quad band Linux phone out by late next year they are going to miss the boat Nov 24 05:33:21 mjr: Im being a realist Nov 24 05:33:46 i just read the latest post on the OM rss feed Nov 24 05:34:28 mjr: I think the OM is a great idea, but the clock is now ticking because there are other players on the field now Nov 24 05:34:42 there does seems to be a lot of discouraging news lately, it makes me worry the efforts are losing steam or becoming more hindered Nov 24 05:34:58 of course it's ticking Nov 24 05:35:48 mjr: doesn't help that Giggles is putting $10 big gorillas on the table for new programs Nov 24 05:36:08 Doesn't mean Android's gonna make people after real freedom and openness happy. Of course, doesn't mean that there will be options either, but what the hey, it's worth a shot. Nov 24 05:36:46 Wow - I just downloaded the latest "official" kernel and rootfs, and now I can make phone calls with an AT&T SIM, in the US, with the GUI dialer! Nov 24 05:36:47 anyway, Android -> #android, as doesn't seem to be in the topic anymore Nov 24 05:36:55 wouldnt it be funny if OM triggered android Nov 24 05:37:03 android is hype, and its just going to be business as usual because of the apache license Nov 24 05:37:18 as far as i know OM is still our best bet for mobiles with a sincere emphasis on freedom Nov 24 05:37:27 perhaps somebody thought that people would've gotten over hyping the vapour here already Nov 24 05:37:31 niklauz, indeed Nov 24 05:37:42 mjr, thats why i'm worried Nov 24 05:37:47 niklauz, indeed Nov 24 05:37:50 niklauz: true thats why I like the OM, but I keep seeing new problems Nov 24 05:37:51 hehe Nov 24 05:38:06 * ljp wonders whats not sincere about Qtoia Nov 24 05:39:05 ljp, is qtopia a mobile linux distribution? Nov 24 05:39:17 I think the big issue with OM is there isnt enough money on the table, trust me, hardware makers will kiss your ass and call it candy if you have the money Nov 24 05:39:17 ljp, i think you're comparing apples and oranges Nov 24 05:39:24 qtopia is distribution agnostic Nov 24 05:40:48 ljp, when you wondered about the sincerity of Qtopia, was that in response to what i said? Nov 24 05:41:06 niklauz: yes Nov 24 05:41:25 whats not free about Qtopia? Nov 24 05:42:04 qtopia are who they are, the code is GPL and they are a financial going concern, OM is no different, if FIC start going backwards they will dumb OM in a blink of an eye, thats business Nov 24 05:42:40 i think you've misinterpreted me, i wasn't saying anything about Qtopia, i was talking about a full free mobile distribution, Qtopia is just a component, not a replacement Nov 24 05:44:05 niklauz: Im surprised they bothered with the OM, why didnt they just contract out to CECT or HTC for a phone Nov 24 05:44:32 niklauz: that is the real mystery to me Nov 24 05:45:17 niklauz: ok. fair enough :) Nov 24 05:45:30 niklauz: maybe QTopia have money problems ? Nov 24 05:45:51 linux_galore, i'm not an insider but i think they were hoping to reduce the cost by selling the phone w/ windows also, to hedge their investment so to speak Nov 24 05:46:46 this would hypothetically mean larger hardware volumes to make it cheaper before linux is even slapped on Nov 24 05:47:22 niklauz: 2008 is going to be an interesting year, I cant see mickysoft standing back either Nov 24 05:48:14 i agree, im just hoping it's interesting in a good way :-) Nov 24 05:48:33 I got to play with a EEE PC today, damn its nice, looks like something you would expect apple to kick out Nov 24 05:49:04 the mouse pad is a bit sucky though Nov 24 05:49:10 linux_galore: how is the battery life & user experience? Nov 24 05:49:55 niklauz: well I ony got to use it for an hour but it seemed fine, the owner who lent me the unit said the battery life was better than his laptop Nov 24 05:50:03 only* Nov 24 05:50:36 niklauz: the total silence of the EEE is what really gets you Nov 24 05:50:38 Linux_Galore: hows the ui performance? Nov 24 05:51:07 ljp: very good, apps are a bit laggy to start but when they are up they run fast Nov 24 05:51:28 the reboot time though is very fast Nov 24 05:51:53 I cant wait for custom installs for the EEE start to appear Nov 24 05:52:25 to start appearing* Nov 24 05:52:51 What's an EEE PC? Nov 24 05:53:22 asus-built flash-based mini laptop, costs 400usd Nov 24 05:53:29 on youtube it looks pretty big but when you get one its really damn small and the weight is microscopic compared to my Sony Vaio UX Nov 24 05:53:53 ewon: lots of videos on youtube Nov 24 05:53:56 How much flash does it have? Nov 24 05:53:57 it's comparible in size to the original toshiba libretto Nov 24 05:54:12 one of the guys in work got one last week, got a chance to poke it Nov 24 05:54:17 Taco: deoends on the model Nov 24 05:54:18 Taco: 4gb built on but you can add more there is an external slot Nov 24 05:54:19 *depends Nov 24 05:54:23 in* Nov 24 05:55:02 there is another version of the EEE due out next year with 8GB but some are saying 16GB is more like it Nov 24 05:55:33 How much of the 4G does the OS chew up? Nov 24 05:55:40 2, iirc Nov 24 05:55:50 you can also use external USB thumb drives/hardisks for storage Nov 24 05:56:13 Taco: bit over 2GB Nov 24 05:56:38 so yes the 8GB unit is a must Nov 24 05:56:46 the screen is a bit small Nov 24 05:56:51 if you want to add lots of apps (or install Ubuntu) Nov 24 05:57:03 It's an 8inch surrounded by this big black bezel Nov 24 05:57:14 ewon: well its a ultra portable what do you expect its not a laptop Nov 24 05:57:25 Linux_Galore: I'd prefer a 10 inch screen and no bezel? Nov 24 05:57:50 ewon: the unit I saw was white and there was no black surround on the screen it was white Nov 24 05:58:06 either way, there's a 2 inch bezel around the screen Nov 24 05:58:37 ewon: yeah, some talk asus have a unit with a bigger screen but then were are the speakers going to go Nov 24 05:58:49 ewon: the surround is the speakers Nov 24 05:59:04 Linux_Galore: I'd prefer more screen and no speakers? Nov 24 05:59:28 ewon: me too, who needs them for a ultra portable anyway just use headphones Nov 24 05:59:36 exactly Nov 24 06:00:09 either way, I've no use for the eee currently (would have been a very useful back in university though) Nov 24 06:00:44 ewon: I suspect they couldnt get the screen ie 10" in large enough quantities so they went with a 7" unit because PMP's use the same screen Nov 24 06:01:31 I see lots of 4" 6" 7" but hardly any 10" LCD devices Nov 24 06:02:22 ewon: also the EEE is all about the price Nov 24 06:02:32 for the size Nov 24 06:03:26 some idiot has hacked OSX on to the eee too, slow as hell though Nov 24 06:05:23 lol Nov 24 06:05:27 man I'd say it crawls Nov 24 06:05:36 I'd basically use it as a web browser / ssh box Nov 24 06:05:40 well Xp runs on the eee too Nov 24 06:05:48 I wonder how good the wifi chip is in it Nov 24 06:05:56 e.g. can it do packet injection like the atheros Nov 24 06:06:18 ewon: it uses a pretty new atheoros unit Nov 24 06:06:43 so new Ubuntu 7.10 has no driver lol Nov 24 06:07:57 I still think my Sony Vaio UX380P is a better UMPC solution Nov 24 06:09:49 1.33Ghz Core mono 1GB DDR2 ram 1024 x 768 touch screen and a 30GB HDD Nov 24 06:10:24 runs Linux but I havent got wifi working so its dual booting Nov 24 06:11:10 the LAN connection works though so all isnt lost Nov 24 06:32:07 wowwww nelly Nov 24 06:32:19 looks like asus is breaking the GPL with the eee Nov 24 06:32:21 http://cliffhacks.blogspot.com/2007/11/asus-eeepc-first-impressions-and-gpl.html Nov 24 06:35:14 Nothing surprising about that. Linksys/Cisco has been doing it for years. Nov 24 06:35:59 I suspect that with a little market pressure, they'll come clean on the parts that they are required to release the source for, and come up with the contracts for the parts they do not wish to do so for. Nov 24 06:36:13 * mwester notes that he just ended a sentence a preposition with. Nov 24 06:36:49 * oppiz has been sitting in this chat room for like 2 weeks, when is the damn phone coming out... Nov 24 06:37:33 oppiz: Probably not this calendar year any more -- at least that's what I've heard here. Nov 24 06:38:00 BLAH! i read that as well... Nov 24 06:39:02 Well, if it doesn't work, then it shouldn't be released, I guess. You can only work around a limited set of problems in software. Nov 24 06:39:53 true. do they have a possible new date late january? Nov 24 06:40:36 the EEE sorta reminds me of an old Epson 486 laptop I had Nov 24 06:41:54 mwester, it also crazt noone has a working phone program Nov 24 06:42:17 * ljp uses his neo as an everyday phone Nov 24 06:42:47 really does it work well, everything i had read is it doesn't work, and has no gui Nov 24 06:42:58 qtopiua works great Nov 24 06:43:02 qtopia that is Nov 24 06:43:04 My neo just stopped outputting any audio - even the boot-time jingle. Does anyone know how to fix that? Nov 24 06:47:51 greetlings. Nov 24 06:48:59 I hope they come clean, I want to run xubuntu on one Nov 24 08:13:04 | configure: error: GMP with MPFR support is required to build fortran Nov 24 08:29:18 Does anyone know if the dropbear ssh client that is built into the standard rootfs image can do X11 forwarding, or would it need to be rebuilt to do that? Nov 24 08:44:35 My neo can make outgoing calls successfully. However, while incoming calls ring the phone, I can't seem to answer them using the headset icon of the dialer GUI. Does anyone know what might be wrong? Nov 24 08:55:59 good morning Nov 24 09:22:08 * CM notices swetland, the Android kernel lead guy in #openmoko :) Nov 24 09:51:26 hi Nov 24 10:05:59 CM: he's been there for a while :-) Nov 24 10:06:05 s/there/here/ Nov 24 10:06:06 rwhitby meant: CM: he's been here for a while :-) Nov 24 10:08:41 Heh, just stayed quiet I guess. Nov 24 10:09:01 Good to see anyway :) Nov 24 11:51:41 www.freepenguin.it/index-en.html Nov 24 12:40:38 phew Nov 24 12:40:44 finally got root-on-sd set up and working .. Nov 24 12:40:45 woot! Nov 24 12:41:05 * torpor rolls around in 1gig of onboard disk space for zee root filezyztem .. Nov 24 12:43:07 hi Nov 24 12:44:09 :) Nov 24 12:44:28 hi Nov 24 12:45:06 what is the currently accepted way of doing gps? still with gllin and a wrapper, or is there now some package on some repo somewhere? Nov 24 12:45:14 i think i asked about this once before recently but i forget .. Nov 24 12:45:21 Well Nov 24 12:45:33 I think that's still the way Nov 24 12:45:59 hmm. Nov 24 12:46:04 But Ghiottone together with the author of statifier is looking at how to make a single binary out of it Nov 24 12:46:12 Out of the libs and gllin that is Nov 24 12:46:14 so if i just fire up gllin-wrapper somehow, i can use navit and openmoko-agps app and stuff? Nov 24 12:46:29 Not sure, I should give it a try too Nov 24 12:46:44 i'm trying to set up the 'ultimate' neo1973 image today, with working GPS, working phone, etc. bluetooth keyboard panel and all that too .. Nov 24 12:47:27 good luck Nov 24 12:48:54 does anyone know why the mailinglists are not working anymore? Nov 24 12:50:01 edistar our admin is currently working on that Nov 24 12:50:27 they should 'work' in general .. what exactly are you experiencing? Nov 24 12:50:34 roh: ok, thanks Nov 24 12:50:46 roh: not getting any mail, now about 4 days I think Nov 24 12:50:50 seems a bit unlikely Nov 24 12:51:42 jap. but fits the symptoms we know. Nov 24 12:52:03 you only subscribed in the last 2 month, right? Nov 24 12:52:16 roh: no, about 6 month ago roughly.. Nov 24 12:52:25 hm Nov 24 12:52:39 roh: I could check exactly if that's relevant? Nov 24 12:56:22 not neccessary Nov 24 12:56:50 roh: ok Nov 24 13:00:10 great! Nov 24 13:00:14 i've now got a working gps! Nov 24 13:00:24 and not only that but my neo is stuffed to the gills with cool crap too. ;) Nov 24 13:00:26 torpor: can you test how exact it is? Nov 24 13:00:41 edistar: nope. i'm not that elite with gps. i just wanted something working,sorta Nov 24 13:00:55 i just followed the normal gllin libhack path, and it seems to be working fine. Nov 24 13:01:04 so i'm done with that, and now its time to hack settingsgui .. ;) Nov 24 13:01:26 anyone got any other good repo's for the neo other than scaredys? i'm already using scaredy's, but i think there have been a few others lately, no? Nov 24 13:14:42 http://claesmogren.com/~cm/neo/ But I don't know if it's any different to buildhost.openmoko.org Nov 24 13:15:46 IfChinsCouldKill: I could link my whole build dist there.. Nov 24 13:15:54 s/dist/dir/ Nov 24 13:15:55 CM meant: IfChinsCouldKill: I could link my whole build dir there.. Nov 24 13:18:19 Does it feature your face in the background.. you know... like in the scaredy builds ;) Nov 24 13:18:30 Hehe Nov 24 13:18:32 Nope Nov 24 13:18:44 torpor: Ghiottone has a repo too Nov 24 13:19:09 torpor: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Alessandro#My_Package_Repository Nov 24 13:25:22 * CM indulges in shameless selfpromotion: http://informationhunger.blogspot.com/2007/11/openmoko-is-growing.html Nov 24 13:43:36 thanks CM! btw, gsmd2 link is broken Nov 24 13:44:43 tuukkah: Oh, thanks. I'll look at it Nov 24 13:44:44 i was surprised to read ljp is able to use the neo as an everyday phone Nov 24 13:45:16 tuukkah: where did you read that? Nov 24 13:46:05 above Nov 24 13:46:15 He's running qtopia Nov 24 13:46:22 ah Nov 24 13:46:25 (7 hours ago) Nov 24 13:46:29 Not sure how much better their powermanagement is Nov 24 13:46:47 yeah, that's the surprising part Nov 24 13:47:00 heh Nov 24 13:47:05 but also that they don't have gsm issues Nov 24 13:47:14 if you can charge every 5 hours it should be alright? Nov 24 13:47:42 hm, i couldn't Nov 24 13:47:55 I can at school ;) Nov 24 13:48:14 tuukkah: Thanks for the gsmd2 tip. it's the dumb blogger default url that sometimes get left before what you really try to link :) Nov 24 13:48:30 CM, i see, np Nov 24 13:49:06 can someone explain to me what exactly are the problems with gsm? Nov 24 13:49:12 edistar_, right, keep a laptop with you so you can use it as a charger when you're not near a desktop computer :-) Nov 24 13:49:37 edistar_, gsmd is not stable nor well specified Nov 24 13:50:39 tuukkah: but the hardware is alright? Nov 24 13:51:12 i'm surprised by that too, but if qtopia works... Nov 24 13:51:51 tuukkah: so basically it's solveable? Nov 24 13:52:08 edistar_, of course there's this small issue of gsm 850 MHz not being available Nov 24 13:52:26 edistar_, must be Nov 24 13:52:58 tuukkah: ok :) good luck to the gsmd hackers ;) Nov 24 13:53:35 there's now something called gsmd2, so there's even some healthy competition :-) Nov 24 13:53:59 tuukkah: by who is gsmd2? also the OM team? Nov 24 13:54:16 edistar_: No, It's a finnish company called Ixonos Nov 24 13:54:26 But it's also GPLv2+ Nov 24 13:54:30 they do mobile software development Nov 24 13:54:56 And known as mudyc and fatal- in here.. ;) Nov 24 13:55:13 so why not use that in OM? Nov 24 13:55:20 isn't it stable yet either? Nov 24 13:55:34 edistar_, it's a possibility, but it's not ready yet Nov 24 13:55:39 it's not compatible Nov 24 13:55:39 ok Nov 24 13:55:43 it would mean touching the whole stack Nov 24 13:55:48 They put it out as a proposal for discussion Nov 24 13:55:49 this is the major problem for now Nov 24 13:56:00 mickeyl: ah, ok Nov 24 13:56:27 but since OM will work on a dbus abstraction as well Nov 24 13:56:43 once we have that we can swap the underlying implementation Nov 24 13:56:46 I thought gsmd was stable for 2 months now.. Nov 24 13:56:51 and this is when the fun starts Nov 24 13:57:00 :) Nov 24 13:57:59 once we have all the dbus collaboration line, we can swap like hell Nov 24 13:57:59 above dbus and below Nov 24 13:57:59 until we come to a rock solid and fun environment Nov 24 13:58:29 mickeyl: :D Nov 24 13:59:04 balrog-kun: ping Nov 24 14:04:43 CM, thanks for the link to the phonekit pdf too Nov 24 14:04:53 looks like phonekit would be the policy part Nov 24 14:05:13 now the proposal doesn't show where 3rd-party software fits in Nov 24 14:06:11 neither whether phonekit communicates with gsmd using d-bus Nov 24 14:35:04 * CM celebrates 1 year in #openmoko :D Nov 24 14:35:15 * flexd gives CM cake Nov 24 14:35:41 I hope it's a sandwich cake.. I love those.. ;) Nov 24 15:11:21 what's the status with audio quality improvement and echo reduction work? Nov 24 15:12:34 mh Nov 24 15:12:49 which GDK_BUTTON_MASK is triggered when someone clicks on the display? Nov 24 15:13:35 borg_, i can suggest you try xev Nov 24 15:13:50 xev? Nov 24 15:14:28 just a suggestion, it's a program that shows the x events it receives Nov 24 15:14:51 ButtonPress event, serial 19, synthetic NO, window 0x1000001, root 0x3a, subw 0x0, time 2006333093, (242,200), root:(242,250), state 0x0, button 1, same_screen YES Nov 24 15:14:55 mh Nov 24 15:15:05 but what does this mean for gtk? ;) Nov 24 15:15:18 button 1 Nov 24 15:15:19 mhmh Nov 24 15:15:30 damn Nov 24 15:15:38 i cant get drag n drop work on the neo Nov 24 15:16:17 that would be related to ButtonPress/ButtonRelease events Nov 24 15:17:01 i do Nov 24 15:17:08 gtk_drag_source_set(south, GDK_BUTTON1_MASK, targetentries, 1, GDK_ACTION_COPY); Nov 24 15:17:12 and Nov 24 15:17:20 g_signal_connect(GTK_OBJECT(south), "drag_data_get", G_CALLBACK(neod_buttonactions_lock_display_data_get), NULL); Nov 24 15:17:31 but neod_buttonactions_lock_display_data_get is never called Nov 24 15:17:48 ideas? :) Nov 24 15:17:49 i mean, you should check with xev that the touch screen can generate ButtonPress without a ButtonRelease Nov 24 15:18:00 tuukkah: ah Nov 24 15:18:00 ok Nov 24 15:18:11 tuukkah: it can :) Nov 24 15:18:14 then MotionNotify events, then ButtonRelease Nov 24 15:18:21 yes Nov 24 15:18:33 it makes ButtonPress, MotionNotify^n, ButtonRelease Nov 24 15:19:12 of course, it is normal X :) Nov 24 15:19:54 i don't remember how the gtk drag api works. have you tested the code works on a computer? Nov 24 15:20:19 Kero, not all touch screens are equal, i suppose Nov 24 15:20:49 quite a few drag-events listed in glade-3... I have no idea how gtk would make a drag and then a drop Nov 24 15:22:53 i guess i have to make some sort of minimal drag n drop thingy which works on my desktop Nov 24 15:23:09 i cant run neod on the desktio becouse of the lack of certain buttons and so on ;) Nov 24 15:23:53 i think you can run neod on the phone with a DISPLAY on the computer Nov 24 15:24:45 googling for gtk drag drop gives a tutorial Nov 24 15:26:25 tuukkah: i used this http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-libs/drag-and-drop.html Nov 24 15:26:43 and looked at this http://scentric.net/tutorial/sec-dnd.html Nov 24 15:27:03 wouldn't they include an example app you can try to run on the neo? Nov 24 15:49:52 people complain about a strong echo of their words when they call the neo; is that tunable, a firmware thing, both, or over the air loopback? Nov 24 15:50:38 From what I've heard, there's a slider in alsamixer to fix that Nov 24 15:50:56 mjr: in my testing (a few months ago) the proper alsamixer settings eliminated all of that. Nov 24 15:51:17 ack Nov 24 15:51:25 there was also the classic GSM TDM burst sound on both ends which also was eliminated with proper settings. Nov 24 15:51:39 it seems there really needs to be an astate manager gui .. Nov 24 15:51:51 BTW these really need to be engineered properly to meet GSM specs, not left up to fiddling with mixers. Nov 24 15:52:25 well, we have the state files, can someone who knows what they should contain patch them? Nov 24 15:52:42 maybe just a state file switcher would be nice. should be easy to hack into settingsgui .. Nov 24 15:52:51 btw, is it only me or doesn't the rss feed from planet.openmoko.org give the right links? Nov 24 15:52:54 to know exactly how they should be set requires test equipment and access that only OM has. Nov 24 15:53:15 there is calibration stored in the GSM modem. Nov 24 15:53:49 to do it properly you need an artificial head Nov 24 15:54:01 at least here AT@AUL doesn't work Nov 24 15:54:15 and AT@ST isn't disabled by default Nov 24 15:54:35 the sidetone is coming through the mixer IIRC Nov 24 15:54:42 the abnormal one that is Nov 24 15:57:01 tuuklah: someone was working on a full description of all the audio paths a few weeks ago but i don't know if it was finished. Without a hardware diagram of the interconnections, we're just grasping in the dark. Nov 24 15:58:04 Writchie, indeed. cool to hear that someone's working on it Nov 24 16:29:48 "Unfortunately, a hardware bug in power management with GTA02v4 has required a fifth revision of the hardware for GTA02." Nov 24 16:29:50 is that right? Nov 24 16:30:22 from http://informationhunger.blogspot.com/2007/11/openmoko-is-growing.html btw Nov 24 16:30:32 yup - and Santa's pissed Nov 24 16:30:38 :) Nov 24 16:31:43 sort of weird way to announce a delay Nov 24 16:32:07 buz_: yeah, it was known for a few days now Nov 24 16:32:14 must have missed it Nov 24 16:32:19 or wasnt it officially announced Nov 24 16:32:21 buz_: It was reported in bugzilla a while ago: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=957#c1 Nov 24 16:32:26 buz_: yeah, was only on irc Nov 24 16:32:35 bugzilla is an even weirder way of announcing a delay Nov 24 16:32:38 CM: not everyone browses bugzilla every day.. Nov 24 16:32:50 edistar: What's wrong with you people? :P Nov 24 16:32:56 :) Nov 24 16:33:08 :D Nov 24 16:33:41 openmoko is an interesting project because it is a very open design process Nov 24 16:33:54 in an industry that is normally *very* closed Nov 24 16:34:16 and the project must work with some very closed pieces such as the gsm and gps bits Nov 24 16:34:46 neither of them should be any real problem. they essentially are black boxes to the os. Nov 24 16:34:55 (yeah i know about hammerhead) Nov 24 16:34:58 and i'm glad its gone Nov 24 16:35:09 Crofton: actually the "design process", if it even exists, is completely closed. Nov 24 16:35:14 * mwester still is stuck with a hammerhead. Nov 24 16:35:39 Writchie: the "if" is a big question when it comes to certain parts of the software ;) Nov 24 16:35:52 and hardware Nov 24 16:35:56 mwester: even with the hardware i have my doubts Nov 24 16:37:08 9 spins of the board - gimme a break Nov 24 16:37:35 Writchie: 9? quite a lot.. Nov 24 16:37:42 other companies churn out 2 phones a month Nov 24 16:37:51 4 versions of gta01 Nov 24 16:37:53 edistar: if you sum up gta01 and gta02 its 9 Nov 24 16:38:03 and i guess you could reasonably do that Nov 24 16:38:13 buz_: lol.. but I hope the next generation will be faster.. Nov 24 16:38:46 not unless they get some engineering process Nov 24 16:39:01 Writchie: What does that mean? Nov 24 16:39:02 hiring some good industrial designers wouldnt hurt, either Nov 24 16:39:15 Well, look at the comments in the wiki about the debug board that I think Harald wrote: We previously had Neo1973 Debug Board v1 (inherited from some weird engineers who must have seen Brazil too often). Nov 24 16:40:00 chinese engineering teams do what you tell them - if you don't tell them you can get anything Nov 24 16:40:12 I think someone said GTA01 was designed by some guys in taiwan, but gta02 was done "in house" Nov 24 16:40:22 in house ? Nov 24 16:40:28 By OpenMoko Nov 24 16:40:36 Hi, I am trying to install openmoko h3900 image, but it freezes at the booting. I have been searching for some work-around .. but I haven't found anything.. any idea? Nov 24 16:40:49 CM: from what i gather, you may still get anything even if you tell them Nov 24 16:40:56 hehe Nov 24 16:41:12 oramirez: Maybe ask koen in #oe, if he has time Nov 24 16:41:22 maybe they should have been told to copy a HTC phone. that might have worked out reasonably well Nov 24 16:41:50 buz_: If they could have gotten all specifications for one of those I guess it would have been perfect :) Nov 24 16:42:05 mwester: are you playing with gps also? Nov 24 16:42:06 the design is actually pretty good, it looks to be more of a spec/verification/validation screw up Nov 24 16:42:22 afaik, they will even copy designs they dont have specs for Nov 24 16:42:38 the existing device is the spec - that's easy Nov 24 16:43:03 at that point, it would have been a software reengineering thing Nov 24 16:43:07 writing linux drivers Nov 24 16:43:16 I always thought companies like FIC have many engineers who know exactly how to build embedded devices.. Nov 24 16:43:21 emdete: Alas, no. I wait for the long-promised driver. Nov 24 16:43:22 the quadband cluster f*#k is beyond all belief Nov 24 16:43:49 edistar: i dont think fic is really an embedded company as much as a pc hardware company Nov 24 16:44:00 buz_: One of the big advantages of the Neo1973 (for me) is how they insist on documented or gpl-driver hardware Nov 24 16:44:32 mmontour: i agree, but the resources sunk into 9 revisions of some device might have been enough to do reverse engineer a driver or too Nov 24 16:44:45 it's probably not the engineers - its the engineering management/product management/project management and/or lack thereof Nov 24 16:45:01 mwester: i played around with that and i am very disapointed about the quality - it often drops connection (we have clear sky here today and i was outside). wonder if i do something wrong or if other people see the same... Nov 24 16:45:04 Writchie: if PR is any indication, there is no management around Nov 24 16:45:25 "9 revs" is sort of unfair - gta02 has significant feature enhancements (like WiFi), not just fixing previous mistakes Nov 24 16:45:47 mmontour: yeah but it is was gta01 should have been all along Nov 24 16:46:03 how many people are actually working on hardware design? Nov 24 16:46:52 The first version of anything is never right. Nov 24 16:47:14 first gen ipod was pretty decent Nov 24 16:47:30 The first *public* iPod Nov 24 16:48:07 JohnMahowald: it's pretty obvious to anyone who ever thought about what neo should do that gta01 wasnt enough hardware Nov 24 16:48:17 FIC should have shipped tens of thousand first models by now and be introducing an improved model today and at least every 6 months. Nov 24 16:48:32 gta01 is way more hardware than required. Nov 24 16:48:44 it depends on what you actually want to sell Nov 24 16:48:49 gta02 is a regression in many respects Nov 24 16:48:55 for a phone, yes, for a small linux thingy, maybe not Nov 24 16:49:07 like what? Nov 24 16:49:16 price Nov 24 16:49:17 small linux thingy - you mean a 770 800 810? Nov 24 16:49:31 Writchie: regression? Nov 24 16:49:32 Given that it's not subsidised - $450 will be over many peoples thresholds Nov 24 16:49:32 yeah, add gsm to 810 and you have a near perfect device Nov 24 16:49:45 SpeedEvil: i agree, 450$ is hard to justify in 2008 Nov 24 16:49:53 then again, $ is so low now :č Nov 24 16:50:10 exactly :) Nov 24 16:50:23 buz_: depends whose "$" you're talking about :) Nov 24 16:50:35 300EUR *including taxes* would be about right i guess Nov 24 16:51:13 regression = broken bluetooth - power budget needed a lead acid battery! Nov 24 16:51:26 810 near perfect? it isnt open! Nov 24 16:51:37 broken bluetooth isn't a regression Nov 24 16:51:40 it was always broken Nov 24 16:51:47 and open isn't the point Nov 24 16:51:54 thresh: its more open than anything thats shipping in volume Nov 24 16:52:00 we don't - ideally - want an open phone that sells 10K Nov 24 16:52:09 buz_: it isnt enough as for me... Nov 24 16:52:12 we want an open phone that sells >>100K Nov 24 16:52:33 The ideal case is that 99% of users have no clue what a shell is. Nov 24 16:52:35 10K per month is pretty much the minimum sustainable business model IMNSHO Nov 24 16:53:07 i'd say you probably need more than that, even Nov 24 16:53:10 Writchie: do you think its realistic that FIC will sell that many devices? Nov 24 16:53:22 edistar: not if they cant deliver Nov 24 16:53:28 not how they are approaching now Nov 24 16:53:40 s/now/it now/ Nov 24 16:53:40 Writchie meant: not how they are approaching it now Nov 24 16:54:08 if they want this to sustain, they SHOULD hire an industrial designer, shell out the cash to make a sexy device or call it a day now Nov 24 16:54:09 but I believe 100K per month is easily doable on this platform Nov 24 16:54:43 Writchie: you need more than one form factor for that to happen Nov 24 16:55:27 buz_: sure - overlapping models - new introduction every 6 months then every quarter - 1 year or more product life - standard stuff Nov 24 16:55:52 yeah, at least a clamshell, a candy bar, a treo and a touchscreen one Nov 24 16:56:28 buz_: all touch, but then different form factors :) Nov 24 16:56:46 edistar: yeah all have touch, but but in mentioned form factors Nov 24 16:56:59 wait. Nov 24 16:57:00 well touch also needs some navigation Nov 24 16:57:02 buttons Nov 24 16:57:03 bluetooth is *BROKEN*? Nov 24 16:57:04 wtf? Nov 24 16:57:07 hows that possible.? Nov 24 16:57:08 bluetooth PM Nov 24 16:57:16 PM? Nov 24 16:57:21 oh, you mean we can't turn it off? Nov 24 16:57:23 power management Nov 24 16:57:42 well... that is _very_ broken then.. Nov 24 16:57:50 no - i can't press a button on my headset and then make a call - pretty big miss Nov 24 16:58:20 i'd consider the quadband issue a bigger f*** up even Nov 24 16:58:37 buz_: yes that surely #1 Nov 24 16:59:39 an open phone that doesnt work is not very useful to most people out there, so maybe sacrificing some openness in the beginning to get the volume to talk to suppliers would have helped Nov 24 17:00:39 buz_: like me, I wouldn't mind "shelling" around a bit to get something to work, as long as I have an open linux mobile Nov 24 17:00:57 yeah but if the hardware is screwed up, thats not gonna help Nov 24 17:01:11 buz_: workarounds.. Nov 24 17:01:26 how would you work around an empty battery? Nov 24 17:01:53 I mean, broken hardware without workarounds is of course a nogo, but you wouldn't even call that a proper mobile.. Nov 24 17:02:18 my definition of this product working is that the hardware and low-level driver software work and are verfied and validated that they do so. The rest is UI and it can months and not really matter. You don't have a platform until the software and drivers work. Nov 24 17:02:31 exactly Nov 24 17:02:46 and you dont have an end user product until the gui does work Nov 24 17:03:22 you can a simple phone with fb and take as long as you want to make better and better upper layers - that's the whole point. Nov 24 17:04:03 All you need is a basic working phone call and sms phone on a stable platform and you are off and running. Nov 24 17:04:41 the whole point of OM is the software continues (even starts) when the phone becomes shippable, the exact opposit of the normal case where software developmen ENDS when the phone becomes shipaable. Nov 24 17:06:07 very good point Nov 24 17:06:15 anyone know what hapennned to the pulseaudio cmd line tool ? Nov 24 17:07:25 OM (the company) needs to decide what business it is in - OM the community will survive as long as there are ANY open phone platforms in the market. Nov 24 17:07:48 Writchie: good points Nov 24 17:10:08 I very much agree that once calling, sms and powermanagement work (mostly) the platform will take off. Nov 24 17:10:31 OM (the company) IMNSHO has lost credibility that is needed for this platform to see mass adoption. Who now would make a multi-billion bet on an uninterrupted supply of reliabile product. Creditbility now has to be regained which is always harder. Nov 24 17:10:45 s/billion/million/ Nov 24 17:10:45 Writchie meant: OM (the company) IMNSHO has lost credibility that is needed for this platform to see mass adoption. Who now would make a multi-million bet on an uninterrupted supply of reliabile product. Creditbility now has to be regained which is always harder. Nov 24 17:11:08 they placed their bet on the dash Nov 24 17:11:37 gamin: that isn't even marketed under their own name, quite weak Nov 24 17:11:50 is dash OM or FIC Nov 24 17:12:10 FIC is 3 billion turnover company. Nov 24 17:12:19 edistar: between sean's dream of an open platform and the business goals of FIC is quite a gap... Nov 24 17:12:25 meh Nov 24 17:12:31 this is all conjecture and speculation Nov 24 17:12:34 I personally know about 4 devs I've talked to that are interested in playing iwth it - but only once calls are working and they can use it as a basic phone reliably. Nov 24 17:12:45 but it's not hit that point yet Nov 24 17:12:45 you don't find any info on who is invested in dash Nov 24 17:12:45 if the next round of hardware can deliver at least a working phone and a good hacking community, it'll be fine. Nov 24 17:12:56 what i want is an imx.31 based handheld linux device. Nov 24 17:13:37 SpeedEvil: I think too that this is a necessary pre-condition Nov 24 17:14:06 SpeedEvil: however, mickey is still surprised that the neo didn't sell better Nov 24 17:14:40 and a big reason the community hasn't done more (IMO) is that there is no schedule of work that needs to be done, none on what's being done by te core team, ... Nov 24 17:14:43 At a couple talks I've given, there were amazing numbers of people that would buy it if it worked as a basic phone just for the potential to run linux on it. Many of them would never do any development. Nov 24 17:14:45 woops, wrong window Nov 24 17:14:58 yeah Nov 24 17:15:06 SpeedEvil: that has been said so many times here :( Nov 24 17:15:14 :/ Nov 24 17:15:27 SpeedEvil: its a rudderless ship going around in circles. Nov 24 17:15:30 * mwester agrees that SpeedEvil has nailed the biggest issue. Nov 24 17:15:47 I don't think it's a rudderless ship going around in circles. Nov 24 17:16:14 neither do I, but there was and still is a lack of information and communication Nov 24 17:16:21 SpeedEvil: it's a ship only using one motor because the community motor can't be actived (cause of NDAs) ;) Nov 24 17:16:30 It's a ship on a moderately determined course in a deep fog, with a lot of other tiny boats trying to follow along and help keep it off the rocks. And the radio seems to have stopped working. Nov 24 17:17:00 The image in my mind is a ship with nobody at the wheel, and occasionally someone from FIC/OM dashes out of the cabin and corrects the wheel in one direction or another, then vanishes, leaving the ship at the mercy of the wind and waves for a bit again. Nov 24 17:17:09 and some rats were seen jumping the ship ;) Nov 24 17:17:31 Writchie: if you mean harald, thats unfair Nov 24 17:18:27 edistar: nah! harald only decided to be no longer a cost factor for FIC but he is still on board Nov 24 17:18:29 i didn't mean to imply that harald is a rat Nov 24 17:18:35 ok ;) Nov 24 17:19:06 how about - one of the officers was seen jumping the ship into one of the lifeboats. Nov 24 17:19:24 Writchie: much better ;) Nov 24 17:21:17 my impression is that the neo currently is doing leaps forward to being usable as daily phone Nov 24 17:22:15 I'd blame a lot of the issues at the new management Nov 24 17:22:28 New Management? Nov 24 17:22:40 and who was the "Old Management? Nov 24 17:22:53 Don't know.. Nov 24 17:23:13 Just know that the new ones are not listening to that devs Nov 24 17:23:13 but since there is a new management, things seem to be goiong foeward Nov 24 17:23:29 gamin: Exactly, even though they took 5 steps back.. Nov 24 17:23:40 we'll see.. Nov 24 17:23:49 I just want GTA02 to arrive.. Nov 24 17:23:52 CM what 5 steps do you mean? Nov 24 17:24:13 what went backward? Nov 24 17:24:23 CM: me too Nov 24 17:24:23 gamin: I mean that there seem to be a lot of friction between the engineering team and the marketing/management Nov 24 17:24:29 i'm quite happy with my now-multibooting neo .. i can boot from the nand, or from SD, and i can boot either the public openmoko release, my own openmoko release (its fat!), or qtopia .. Nov 24 17:24:35 and all three let me make calls and stuff. Nov 24 17:24:48 gamin: When was the last time you saw any public announcement? Nov 24 17:24:49 can't beat having a phone with multiple operating systems on it for sheer poser hacker factor Nov 24 17:24:52 CM - there is not much know from the outside Nov 24 17:25:12 gamin: Exactly. It used to be open, Sean posted and mailed a lot Nov 24 17:26:07 I don't understand all these politics - I mean, the better the platform, the more phones they will sell Nov 24 17:26:19 weill, if they now have some engineering management (and process) and adult supervision that is a very good thing. Nov 24 17:26:22 and they can't do all by themself Nov 24 17:26:41 why doesn't Sean write anymore to the community? It seems that he has stopped actively.. Nov 24 17:26:59 but he is still working for OM I assume? Nov 24 17:27:03 its all a load of craqp Nov 24 17:27:22 look at the gp2x for an example of the friction that can occur between a manufacturer and those who want to put linux on the device Nov 24 17:27:34 craig is now making his own gp2x competitor .. the craiginator Nov 24 17:27:38 gamin: I think so, or he works for FIC Nov 24 17:27:43 and the fact remains: its easier and easier to get hardware made these days. Nov 24 17:29:09 torpor: true - but it's not easy to reach the desired BOM points without volume Nov 24 17:29:32 5,000 is plenty volume Nov 24 17:29:36 and a lot of people can affor that now Nov 24 17:29:38 bull Nov 24 17:29:44 not bull Nov 24 17:30:02 sell 5,000 units, you personally, at $400, with a $200 profit, and then tell me its bull. Nov 24 17:30:06 its not bull Nov 24 17:30:08 10,000 a week is needed Nov 24 17:30:30 in fact a lot of linux guys could be serious money-makers if they only went for more hardware-planning logistics trips to taiwan and korea .. Nov 24 17:30:46 10k a week? thats such incredible bullshit i can't even stand it. Nov 24 17:30:52 you do *not* need to sell 10k a week to be profitable. Nov 24 17:30:56 only if you're an apple wannabe Nov 24 17:31:10 and there is a long way to go before anyone gets near apples #'s .. Nov 24 17:31:29 if you want to be a major player in the phone space need be in 100K - million per model Nov 24 17:31:29 honest, thats such a load of crap i can't even tell you. i could get a device made myself right now, get 100 of them made, and make thousands in profit. Nov 24 17:31:36 if i only had $50k to invest. Nov 24 17:31:49 'major player' is a lot of crap Nov 24 17:32:05 honest, this is such a lot of crap i don't even know where to begin. Nov 24 17:32:11 torpor: if the idea is good, plenty of vc's will push the money down your throat Nov 24 17:32:18 you counldn't even talk to qualcomm or ti with that kind of volume Nov 24 17:32:19 you understand that there are millionaires selling a few 100 devices a month, and doing just fine .. Nov 24 17:32:44 Writchie: qualcomm and TI are not the only players in the device space. you demonstrate your ignorance with such statements. Nov 24 17:33:15 i'm talking about phones - not devices Nov 24 17:33:17 Writchie: why do you need profit to make good hardware? Nov 24 17:33:34 torpor: the community has spent >$2m on the neo1973, so should be no prob for you to get the money :) Nov 24 17:33:42 gamin: what community? Nov 24 17:34:04 openmoko - 7000 phones * 300$ Nov 24 17:34:20 thats plenty Nov 24 17:34:34 on gadgets that basically are not yet useful Nov 24 17:34:41 i wanna make a music device that uses openmoko as its base platform Nov 24 17:34:52 my point is: people are willing to invest upfront Nov 24 17:34:53 <- got a new coldfire devkit today.. Nov 24 17:35:00 i doubt very much that Mr. Wang is impressed Nov 24 17:35:39 Mr Wang = CEO or chinese version of john doe? Nov 24 17:35:47 CEO Nov 24 17:36:09 gamin: but people won't invest if they don't see a product at all.. Nov 24 17:36:22 gamin: only people with very much money.. Nov 24 17:36:30 edistar: we only saw nice photoshop mock-ups... Nov 24 17:37:25 gamin: and a big company named FIC behind it Nov 24 17:38:01 so the goal of openmoko is to impress big guys? Nov 24 17:38:16 edistar: there are thousands of VCs out ther Nov 24 17:38:45 well if anyone wants to start a new musical instrument company, lemme know. ;) Nov 24 17:38:49 gamin: maybe, I don't have that much experience yet ;) Nov 24 17:38:50 loufoque: for those who do the investment upfront it is a question of return on investment Nov 24 17:44:38 torpor: good luck then! Nov 24 17:49:09 can I use a 2.5mm->3.5mm adapter to use other earplugs for the neo? Nov 24 17:49:21 yes\ Nov 24 17:49:31 thanks Nov 24 17:50:18 does anyone has a code snippet on how to use the aux button from gtk ? Nov 24 17:50:33 do adapters 2,5mm -> 2 x 3.5mm: earplugs / micro exist? couldn't find any... Nov 24 17:51:12 gamin: yes Nov 24 17:51:14 matsimoto: Nov 24 17:51:18 #define AUX_BUTTON_KEYCODE 0x22 Nov 24 17:51:18 #define POWER_BUTTON_KEYCODE 0x23 Nov 24 17:51:19 #define TOUCHSCREEN_BUTTON_KEYCODE 0x14a Nov 24 17:51:25 what exactly do you need? Nov 24 17:51:32 gamin: nokia supplies them with their phones Nov 24 17:51:41 gamin: I think Nov 24 17:51:46 last question: do the nokia 2.5mm gadgets have the same impedance, i.e are usable with the neo? Nov 24 17:52:03 borg_: I like to capture the AUX button press to open a dialog is this a keyboard like interaction ? Nov 24 17:52:08 gamin: I would think so, since there are standards.. Nov 24 17:52:48 the stiff cables of the neo earplugs are a bit annoying :( Nov 24 17:53:15 matsimoto: i guess there is no sane way to do it :( Nov 24 17:53:17 so I'm looking for a nice replacement - non BT Nov 24 17:53:33 you have to get the events from /dev/input/event%d Nov 24 17:55:04 borg_: oh, thats evil. You mean this is more a systems event then a GUI event ? Nov 24 17:55:26 matsimoto: i am working an neod at the momment, there it is done this way Nov 24 17:55:59 gamin: http://mytreo.net/store/product.php?xProd=1004 Nov 24 17:56:02 perhaps i can make something like libneod, where you can get these events some time Nov 24 17:56:20 mwester: thanks Nov 24 17:56:54 matsimoto: at the moment you can look in openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/daemons/neod/buttonactions.c Nov 24 17:57:03 and copy gboolean neod_buttonactions_install_watcher() Nov 24 17:57:24 and gboolean neod_buttonactions_input_dispatch( GSource* source, GSourceFunc callback, gpointer data ) Nov 24 17:57:28 as a first hack Nov 24 17:58:10 borg_: thanks, I will take a look. Nov 24 17:58:27 could I receive notification from neod ? Nov 24 17:58:47 anyone know how to turn off the 'gsm network connectd' messages? they're freakin' annoying .. Nov 24 17:59:08 matsimoto: not at the moment Nov 24 17:59:17 the only output of neod are these 2 menus Nov 24 18:00:04 borg_: are there any plans on how to dispatch theese events to other applications ? Nov 24 18:00:23 matsimoto: i dont no Nov 24 18:00:26 i guess there are none Nov 24 18:00:34 but i am willing to work on it Nov 24 18:01:19 but i will finisch my phone lock enhancement in neod first ;) Nov 24 18:02:28 borg_: are you german? Nov 24 18:02:33 I think there is a need on a concept on how to dispatch such events but I dont know if sockets like gsmd uses are a good approach Nov 24 18:03:08 edistar: yes Nov 24 18:04:49 borg_: ok, I also make mistakes like sh and sch often, that's why I thought so ;) Nov 24 18:05:10 :) Nov 24 18:05:10 borg_: let me know when you have a concept or even begin to code may be we can share some ideas Nov 24 18:05:30 matsimoto: very good :) Nov 24 18:12:56 well i gotta say root-on-sd works so well, i'm just gonna leave it this way. nice to have 500megs of tracks on my phone! :) Nov 24 18:13:31 torpor: is it slower as on flash? Nov 24 18:13:41 i can't really say to be honest. Nov 24 18:13:46 ok Nov 24 18:14:44 gamin, mwester: are you shure that adapter is right? it has 3 connections, not 4 as the neo headset... i've found this one: http://wp1063710.wp098.webpack.hosteurope.de/handyzubehoer.cc/media/images/audioadapter_sam_e330_x460_25mm_400_big.jpg - aren't four needed (even if there is no micro)? Nov 24 18:16:22 I found the article on wikipedia about the jack plugs (and should have looked there already in the first place): Nov 24 18:16:49 i find it quite useable to be honest. Nov 24 18:16:51 the mircophone will be short circuited (is that english?) against ground Nov 24 18:16:54 i'm going to be leaving my phone this way. Nov 24 18:17:03 all i need to do now is get gprs internet working and i'm set. Nov 24 18:17:10 torpor: so you have one and it works? Nov 24 18:17:17 yup Nov 24 18:17:29 my phone makes phone calls too since one week Nov 24 18:17:31 torpor: as i asked yesterday: what's the trouble with gprs? Nov 24 18:17:37 torpor: didn't you build your own image? Nov 24 18:17:40 gprs not yet tried Nov 24 18:18:09 made my own image too with mokomakefile Nov 24 18:18:54 torpor: why don't you host your own buildhost server? :P Nov 24 18:20:07 edistar: too lazy! Nov 24 18:20:19 i have made my own image and i'm booting it now Nov 24 18:20:25 torpor: ok ;) Nov 24 18:20:31 what i will do is tar up my SD filesystem and make it available, so people can untar and boot .. Nov 24 18:20:45 as for gprs, i just haven't got it worked out yet, and i want to try to use settingsgui for it so its easy. Nov 24 18:21:02 and i also wanna make a bluetooth-gprs router, so i can use that for internet on the go Nov 24 18:21:09 then i will be very happy with my neo. Nov 24 18:21:23 and then i'll do a youtube demo of it and people will see: the neo1973 is really quite useful right now! Nov 24 18:21:28 torpor: have you tried gps also? Nov 24 18:21:46 emdete: yup! it works! navit and agps demo.. Nov 24 18:22:24 torpor: i am a little bit sad about two thinks of the neo... battery does just last an hour if gprs is used and gps does not work very reliable :( Nov 24 18:22:55 torpor: and the neo has position all the time? Nov 24 18:23:07 torpor: do u use gllin? Nov 24 18:24:02 torpor: is the agps demo in the feed? Nov 24 18:24:10 or where did you get it from? Nov 24 18:26:03 gllin, yup. Nov 24 18:26:08 and agps demo in the feed, yup. Nov 24 18:26:18 well i haven't tested gps much .. just got it working on this image today. Nov 24 18:26:30 i'm trying to build a 'mega image' for others to use to get something nice from their neo's .. Nov 24 18:26:42 so i've got the latest image, and a few nice toys onboard too .. Nov 24 18:27:48 and now i'm gonna try pyroute. Nov 24 18:29:27 how big is your image? Nov 24 18:34:12 torpor: so u include gllin in your image? Nov 24 18:34:44 some phone companies send GPRS settings as an SMS Nov 24 18:35:06 or as cell broadcasts Nov 24 18:35:18 emdete: yup Nov 24 18:35:29 edistar: so far about 120megs... Nov 24 18:35:30 I'm not quite sure what it is, but that would be interesting to support on the neo Nov 24 18:35:39 Vegar: does the neo read those sms? Nov 24 18:35:53 emdete: it doesn't yet I suppose Nov 24 18:36:20 the settings are usually customized for each particular supported phone. Nov 24 18:36:31 * anrp sends Vegar an "OTA OK" sms :F Nov 24 18:38:05 torpor: I tried running gps too today, but it's a real storm outside, so I was too lazy to get out and wouldn't get a fix Nov 24 18:38:27 Anyway, it logs to a file as far as I can tell.. Will fill the rootfs eventually Nov 24 18:38:30 CM: have you seen my scripts? Nov 24 18:38:41 emdete: Nope, not yet :) Nov 24 18:38:46 CM: i only tested it briefly. ;) Nov 24 18:38:51 CM: i enhanced it a bit not using the pipe->file stuff Nov 24 18:38:56 emdete: you have gps scripts? Nov 24 18:39:11 torpor: Heh, I used it on my normal rootfs, and I saw that it was shrinking.. Nov 24 18:39:21 torpor: its in the wiki... but i enhanced it to use udp and a python client Nov 24 18:39:34 okay thats something worth checking out. Nov 24 18:39:39 i'll do that tomorrow Nov 24 18:39:43 right now i'm playing with http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/routing/pyroute/ Nov 24 18:40:36 Ah, cool Nov 24 18:40:38 i am not /that/ intersted in navigation, i save tracks only Nov 24 18:40:52 torpor: Please do film and make a youtube video Nov 24 18:40:56 i would like to use google for display Nov 24 18:40:57 It will be a hit :) Nov 24 18:41:01 CM: Just edit the gllin startup script and remove the cp Nov 24 18:41:07 emdete: Like ScaredyCat's thing? Nov 24 18:41:23 abraxa_: Yes, I looked in the startup script Nov 24 18:41:24 CM: what is ScaredyCat's thing? Nov 24 18:41:41 emdete: http://blog.automated.it/2007/11/21/here-i-am-right-here/ Nov 24 18:42:02 emdete: Click on the tracker application link :) Nov 24 18:43:06 oups... cool! Nov 24 18:43:12 :) Nov 24 18:45:28 hey cool .. pyroute runs! Nov 24 18:46:32 03jserv * r3501 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/machine_gta01.c: Nov 24 18:46:32 Indentation with consistent coding style of gsmd. Nov 24 18:46:32 Remove C++ style comments. Nov 24 18:47:08 * CM wonders what time jserv is working!? Nov 24 18:50:15 03jserv * r3502 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/vendor_ti.c: Fixlet to dead code in cpmb_detect_cb. Nov 24 19:17:54 is anybody able to help me with devirginate? Nov 24 19:23:15 folken: gah! Nov 24 19:23:17 bad! Nov 24 19:23:24 i can help but i'm leaving right now. Nov 24 19:23:30 if you need help tomorrow i'll be here. Nov 24 19:23:33 hint: its not easy! Nov 24 19:23:49 Maybe the wiki has most info needed? Nov 24 19:23:51 torpor: oh, yes i have been finding that out.. past 10-12 hours. Nov 24 19:24:20 CM: i'm following the instructions to the book.. but numerous things are broken.. Nov 24 19:24:47 torpor: thanks for your offer. Nov 24 19:25:14 folken: Ok, good to know. I might get/have to use a debugboard soon too Nov 24 19:25:36 its shit believe me.. i went through this. Nov 24 19:25:37 CM: i'll try to get the instructions a bit more uptodate. Nov 24 19:26:34 folken: Great :) Nov 24 19:27:30 but i think i completley bricked my phone .. Nov 24 19:28:05 folken, what did you do? Nov 24 19:28:10 since about 10 minutes i can't get it to do anything anymore. Nov 24 19:28:19 it doesn't vibrate when i turn it on. Nov 24 19:28:25 folken, i mean, how did you brick it? Nov 24 19:28:31 the battery has 3.77 volts, which should be enought. Nov 24 19:28:32 * CM guesses dead battery Nov 24 19:28:36 Oh.. Hmm.. Nov 24 19:28:55 mbuf: originally? nand erase all.. stupid me. Nov 24 19:29:07 folken, ok Nov 24 19:29:22 hehe Nov 24 19:29:49 back when I had to devirginate it was rather easy and the documentation was quite good Nov 24 19:30:13 i was following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_re-flashing_the_bootloader Nov 24 19:30:26 but strangley enought it only says to connect the jtag. Nov 24 19:30:44 there is no mentioning of the second usb cable going to the usb hub. Nov 24 19:30:54 folken: What about http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Devirginator Nov 24 19:31:42 Same as the README file it seems.. Nov 24 19:31:54 right Nov 24 19:32:25 CM: i tried that one too.. Nov 24 19:32:30 it basically works.. Nov 24 19:32:36 load module w/ proper parameter on host PC for the debugboard, connect phone to debug board, devirginate all stages but "0" Nov 24 19:33:02 i can load lowlevel foo up to the bootloader Nov 24 19:34:41 once i had the dfu-loading process working, up to the rootfs. During rootfs flash it aborted with an error. Nov 24 19:35:31 that sounds bad Nov 24 19:35:33 folken: get a working uboot and envionment flashed first, then do the rest with dfu-util (without needing the debugboard) Nov 24 19:36:19 maybe your bad block table is toast? Dunno Nov 24 19:36:37 mmontour: i might have falsy configured the nand variables for the bootloader to incorrectly point the serial console to nirvana.. Nov 24 19:37:03 mmontour: if i could manually load the preboot_override.. Nov 24 19:38:04 Do you see the initial boot messages on the serial console? Nov 24 19:39:20 no Nov 24 19:39:30 and this is also bothering me: Error: arm7_9_common.c:561 arm7_9_execute_sys_speed(): timeout waiting for SYSCOMP & DBGACK, last DBG_STATUS: 4 Nov 24 19:39:51 could it be that my usb stack is confused?? Nov 24 19:41:24 I don't recognize that error message. For the serial console, make sure you loaded ftdi_sio with the right module options (product + vendor ID) Nov 24 19:42:54 mmontour: i do get ttyUSB1 & 0 Nov 24 19:43:13 mmontour: i can connect with minicom, but it doesn't show anything. Nov 24 19:43:53 IIRC the console is connected to the display by default..or something heh Nov 24 19:44:00 mmontour: let me reboot my laptop, i think the usb stack is FUBARd, i had this situation once before. Nov 24 19:45:28 A reboot might help. On restart, be careful about the order that you do things (e.g. turn on, plug in, then run openocd / minicom) Nov 24 20:00:33 fsck has a talent to show up at the most inconvinient of times. :) Nov 24 20:01:10 =) Nov 24 20:01:21 Yeah, my company found that out last week after a power outage took down our main fileserver Nov 24 20:01:21 ~lart ext3 ;) Nov 24 20:01:22 * apt pushes the wall down onto ext3 ;) whilst whistling innocently Nov 24 20:04:14 ok now at least i can talk again to the neo. Nov 24 20:04:59 oh, btw. its a bad idea to boot the host pc with the debugboard connected. Nov 24 20:05:30 * CM takes a note Nov 24 20:05:37 Not that I ever turn this comp off.. Nov 24 20:07:46 it complained that it was unable to initialize agpgart with an i945gm Nov 24 20:09:05 hmm.. the neo doesn't respond to reset halt Nov 24 20:09:21 Is the neo turned on? Nov 24 20:09:22 wait Nov 24 20:09:44 it took a while then said Target 0 halted Nov 24 20:10:03 but openocd complained: Error: arm7_9_common.c:561 arm7_9_execute_sys_speed(): timeout waiting for SYSCOMP & DBGACK, last DBG_STATUS: 4 Nov 24 20:10:59 poll says target state: running Nov 24 20:11:45 i was able to load low_level foo into ram Nov 24 20:13:09 but i cannot set the breakpoint: target must be halted to set breakpoints Nov 24 20:13:29 poll still says running, eventhough i entered reset halt Nov 24 20:14:23 and wait_halt says: timed out while waiting for target halt Nov 24 20:15:17 Does the reset button on the debug board do anything? Nov 24 20:16:28 * ScaredyCat notes CM on planet Nov 24 20:17:28 ScaredyCat: Yeah, why are you not there? Nov 24 20:17:37 mmontour: it doesn't do anything interms of leds. Nov 24 20:17:55 I guess I was rejected :( Nov 24 20:18:07 * ScaredyCat blames mickey|sports Nov 24 20:18:34 mmontour: i can hear the high pitched sound the board emmits turn to a higher note. Nov 24 20:18:36 * CM blames ScaredyCat instead Nov 24 20:20:18 I remember once seeing that state where the target wouldn't halt, but I can't remember what caused/fixed it Nov 24 20:20:48 mmontour: does the moko turn on the vibrator when one presses the button, without software on it? Nov 24 20:21:21 mmontour: because at the moment display stays blank and no vibration. Nov 24 20:21:55 It's uboot that pulses the vibrator. With erased NAND you won't see anything (except through the debug board) when you turn it on Nov 24 20:22:55 mmontour: so I should see something on the serial console? Nov 24 20:24:08 Nothing on the serial console until you have uboot, but "reset halt" etc. through openocd should work Nov 24 20:27:01 mmontour: ok, after resetting/repluggin the debugboard a multitude of times, i can again do runtest 2 Nov 24 20:27:06 without it complaining.. Nov 24 20:27:25 ah and poll returns again target halted. Nov 24 20:28:42 can you now load lowlevel_foo, set the breakpoint, and resume? Nov 24 20:30:43 * CM thinks pyroute looks nice (http://scap.linuxtogo.org/) Nov 24 20:31:57 that's pretty nice Nov 24 20:32:03 which map formats does it read? Nov 24 20:35:39 mmontour: should i see the leds on the debugboard blink when i type in the serial console? regardless of the state of neo? Nov 24 20:35:50 Vegar: It's using Open Street Map, at least that's what the mail to -devel says Nov 24 20:36:37 folken: I think so, but I don't have mine hooked up at the moment so I can't check Nov 24 20:37:43 CM, Vegar: a friend of mine compiled the portable gpsdrive version and uses that. Appart from some ui issues it works. Nov 24 20:38:20 folken: Cool :) Nov 24 20:39:16 folken: I have to go. Hope you get it working. Nov 24 20:39:29 mmontour: thank you very much for your assitance. Nov 24 20:43:15 CM: hiya. I'm the one who wrote pyroute Nov 24 20:43:26 OJW: nice Nov 24 20:43:41 good to hear it actually runs on openmoko Nov 24 20:44:26 it looks quite nice Nov 24 20:46:09 About ui issue ... what's the right way to adapt ui to another phone ? make gtk2 theme and tell bitbake to use this theme for this machine ? Nov 24 20:49:51 HABLAS ESPAŅOL? Nov 24 20:50:00 NO Nov 24 20:50:40 HABLAS ESPAŅOL? Nov 24 20:52:39 lol Nov 24 20:52:41 wtf Nov 24 20:59:55 OJW: how complicated would it be to implement other map formats? Nov 24 21:00:21 by "formats" do you mean map tile images, or vector data? Nov 24 21:01:01 Anyone who knows if gta02 will be in time? Nov 24 21:01:34 OJW: well.. both Nov 24 21:05:33 well you'd have to program them obviously... pyroute doesn't add any complexity, it should be as simple as showing that format in any other python/cairo program. I have been concentrating on tile images though, because my early experiments in vector maps were much much slower (even for extremely simple maps) - and making vector data look nice takes even more CPU Nov 24 21:06:04 OJW: Interesting :) Nov 24 21:06:19 OJW: And great work on the program Nov 24 21:07:08 I see Nov 24 21:07:34 hi CM. thanks. it's still kind of a research platform. I see all these GPS/map apps that can't find routes for cyclists, makes me want to do something better ;) Nov 24 21:08:33 Vegar: basically it's not on *my* todo list to add garmin IMG or whatever (since any good data will get integrated into openstreetmap eventually) but pyroute should support drawing whatever you want, if somebody writes the code Nov 24 21:09:31 I was just wondering if it was made with support for other maps in mind, or if it was designed to work only with OSM Nov 24 21:13:02 how is the "evaluation" going? ^^ Nov 24 21:13:26 PP|Spydon: check planet.openmoko.org Nov 24 21:13:44 Aha I see Nov 24 21:13:44 thx Nov 24 21:13:49 what maps would you like to see on it? (bear in mind that the reason we do OpenStreetMap is the proprietary/non-Free/restrictive nature of most other map sources) it's not a complex program - map-drawing modules just get a cairo surface to write to, and a projection object to convert lat/long to x,y Nov 24 21:14:43 e.g. TIGER will be in OSM soon enough, as will all the other public-domain maps Nov 24 21:17:18 osm has awesome coverage of .nl Nov 24 21:17:32 I'm just saying... Nov 24 21:18:00 yeah, "Automotive Nav Data" (AND) donated their maps Nov 24 21:18:09 osm has some shitty coverage of .se Nov 24 21:18:14 I'm just saying... ;) Nov 24 21:18:32 yeah, but .se .... there's like 10 people living there... Nov 24 21:18:33 I'm just saying... Nov 24 21:19:01 .no is even worse Nov 24 21:19:03 About twice that, per square kilometer Nov 24 21:19:12 OJW: ah, I am a little suprised that they don't seem to get a lot of publicity for it Nov 24 21:19:52 OJW: I happen to have some garmin maps, but that would require some reverse-engineering Nov 24 21:20:12 libgarmin Vegar Nov 24 21:20:42 really? I thought there were loads of OSM people in scandanavia (in norway especially) Nov 24 21:20:43 -r Nov 24 21:20:46 ScaredyCat: are you saying it's already done? Nov 24 21:21:04 OJW: there are very few up north Nov 24 21:21:24 Vegar http://libgarmin.sourceforge.net/ Nov 24 21:21:37 ScaredyCat: yeah, found it but it's still loading Nov 24 21:22:00 wow, how could you possinbly have a worse connection than me! Nov 24 21:22:18 it's only my connection to sf.net that sucks Nov 24 21:22:19 is someone here who wants to make some graphics for an display lock in openmoko style? :) Nov 24 21:22:19 maybe I just think that because at first OpenStreetMap party, there was like a whole class of norwegian university students who were all working on OSM... Nov 24 21:22:29 hehe Nov 24 21:22:56 ScaredyCat: what do you mean re: publicity? Nov 24 21:23:07 meh Nov 24 21:23:18 ScaredyCat: I was hoping to have some fun reverse engineering it Nov 24 21:23:19 for AND - you know like a freebie banner on the osm site, Nov 24 21:23:27 borg_: I wish I could, but I'm simply not a good artist. :P Nov 24 21:23:31 intresting, I must give that lib a go with the files off my nuvi Nov 24 21:23:35 a little osm thanks AND for example Nov 24 21:23:38 borg_: What kind of screen lock? Like the qtopia one? Nov 24 21:23:41 I'm just saying... Nov 24 21:23:49 CM: yes, it is ready Nov 24 21:23:51 i need some images Nov 24 21:23:53 Vegar: you can still re it.. Nov 24 21:23:56 :D Nov 24 21:24:03 Vegar meet wheel Nov 24 21:24:09 ScaredyCat: well.. yeah.. but now there's no fun in doing it Nov 24 21:24:15 and I'd end up cheating after a while Nov 24 21:24:20 Hehe Nov 24 21:24:33 a key and a key hole or a cat and a basket Nov 24 21:24:39 mv libgarmin libvegar Nov 24 21:24:40 or .... Nov 24 21:24:47 something then one can put in another thing :) Nov 24 21:24:55 (non adult pls :) ) Nov 24 21:24:59 Cat and a basket gets my vote :) Nov 24 21:25:03 :D Nov 24 21:25:40 make it so the graphice are replaceable Nov 24 21:25:42 * CM suspects his gf would like to see a finger and a gold ring.. Nov 24 21:26:00 * ScaredyCat wonders if CM's ring is gold Nov 24 21:26:19 ~fish ScaredyCat Nov 24 21:26:20 * apt slaps ScaredyCat around with a large trout Nov 24 21:26:40 !googlefight ScaredyCat vs CM Nov 24 21:26:41 By results on Google: CM beats ScaredyCat by 567,000,000 to 24,500! Nov 24 21:26:42 ScaredyCat: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/7c372ad4586f90133a5a0726f666f8df.png Nov 24 21:26:47 :'( Nov 24 21:26:55 Hehe Nov 24 21:27:03 you can replace the background, the green thing, the red thing and an image which is shown when dragging Nov 24 21:27:18 borg_: Ah, cool Nov 24 21:27:22 noce Nov 24 21:27:25 god damn I love the sirf-III Nov 24 21:27:25 cnie Nov 24 21:27:28 gneeh! Nov 24 21:27:28 it works nice Nov 24 21:27:29 gets a lock inside my apartments Nov 24 21:27:29 nice Nov 24 21:27:37 but i am too dumb to make pictures :D Nov 24 21:27:43 ScaredyCat: No more drinks for you tonight.. :-P Nov 24 21:27:45 your apartments? you have several? Nov 24 21:28:16 it's when I start singing you want to worry CM Nov 24 21:28:23 Hehe Nov 24 21:32:46 mickey|sports: pong Nov 24 21:36:26 mh Nov 24 21:36:39 i guess it would be nice to make the black parts of the lock tranparent Nov 24 21:36:50 yes... Nov 24 21:36:54 mmmh Nov 24 21:36:56 ooh , a chicken and a pot Nov 24 21:36:58 is this possible with gtk? :) Nov 24 21:37:18 ScaredyCat: Pot, meet kettle? Nov 24 21:37:25 Or what is that saying? Nov 24 21:37:48 pot calling the kettle black Nov 24 21:37:51 "pot calling the chicken black"? Nov 24 21:38:08 no, "the chicken is in the pot" Nov 24 21:38:21 "Variable this is knife" Nov 24 21:38:22 "Variable this is knife" Nov 24 21:38:25 "the chicken is in the pot" Nov 24 21:38:32 don't count your pots before they hatch? Nov 24 21:39:11 heh, I'm 8313.6km from home Nov 24 21:39:14 * ewon fears Nov 24 21:39:26 it's a quote from "Clear and Present Danger" Nov 24 21:39:41 oh yeah, my "geometry.py" doesn't work at all... Nov 24 21:40:56 Hmm.. Maybe eggs -> basket Nov 24 21:41:16 eggs -> basketOne Nov 24 21:41:17 borg_: Themable locking! :-) Nov 24 21:41:36 like downloadable screensavers? Nov 24 21:41:36 *nod* allEggs -> oneBasket Nov 24 21:41:40 CM: i will make a directory where you can put images and he will choose them randomly Nov 24 21:41:50 borg_: Cool Nov 24 21:41:53 so you get everytime the lock comes in a nice new thing to play with :) Nov 24 21:41:59 but someone has to make the images :D Nov 24 21:42:24 borg_: Maybe make a template, with just dashed lines or so, showing where things are being moved to and from Nov 24 21:42:38 Then people can just add a new layer and draw on that Nov 24 21:42:39 ok Nov 24 21:42:49 sounds like an idea Nov 24 21:43:52 Ingenting under solen ÃĪr bestÃĪndigt Nov 24 21:44:24 borg_: I'll be happy to draw something, or at least cut and paste something silly together Nov 24 21:44:39 ScaredyCat: Heh, where did that come from? Nov 24 21:44:55 yeah, download random pics off bigjuggs.com Nov 24 21:45:09 CM: that would be telling ;) Nov 24 21:45:25 http://oaks.nvg.org/swedish-proverbs.html Nov 24 21:59:28 CM: http://homepages.upb.de/olaf/dinge/openmoko/display_lock/ Nov 24 21:59:56 start.png, some_dragging.png and end.png are for the explanation Nov 24 22:03:18 so this "drag upwards" command will be atop the picture of someone's skirt? ;) Nov 24 22:17:45 OJW: regarding your threading issue.. Nov 24 22:18:08 would it be possible to use urllib.open and then retrieve the data in a loop? Nov 24 22:18:47 in the loop you can then check if it's time for the thread to die (and possible clean up any half-downloaded files) Nov 24 22:18:54 ok. but then we're assuming that the downloading of the data is slow Nov 24 22:19:08 what if the initial connection is the slow bit? Nov 24 22:19:12 urllib.urlopen* Nov 24 22:19:40 e.g. if the delay occurs before you get the first byte Nov 24 22:20:02 I'm tempted to rewrite gpsdrive to make it less awful to use Nov 24 22:20:19 throw in some SDL image routines, so one can at least click and drag the god-damned map Nov 24 22:20:47 OJW: well.. then you need to go even lower Nov 24 22:20:55 CM: http://homepages.upb.de/olaf/dinge/openmoko/display_lock/openmoko-display-lock-readme.txt Nov 24 22:21:32 moin Nov 24 22:21:39 nabend Nov 24 22:21:58 oder so, ja :-) Nov 24 22:22:00 OJW: asynchronous sockets Nov 24 22:22:55 yeah that's always an option. we go from a oneliner to an awful lot of code though, quite quickly... Nov 24 22:23:11 yeah Nov 24 22:23:18 having a "kill thread" command would be useful Nov 24 22:24:09 you might also want to stop downloading tiles if the user moves away from a tile before it's downloaded Nov 24 22:24:41 yes, that should be easy enough (though it still relies on being able to interrupt a download) Nov 24 22:24:54 yeah Nov 24 22:26:44 hmm, latest qtopia asks for pin but does not manage to go into right sound state without help Nov 24 22:27:56 calling works, receiving calls work, sms work but no sound during a call. but the rining works. strange Nov 24 22:31:11 does anyone know what I have to setup in alsamixer to hear the one who has called me on the speaker not the handset ? Nov 24 22:32:45 alsactl restore handset something Nov 24 22:33:44 awww, crap, debug says pin is requested but dialer does not pop up. why is that? Nov 24 22:33:45 hehe, yes to restore to the handset that ist ok, but I want the callee audio on my external speaker Nov 24 22:34:12 use gsmspeakerout.state Nov 24 22:35:36 ahh ok sounds perfekt, but where can I get it ? Nov 24 22:36:04 its in /etc Nov 24 22:36:59 sorry, of course ... :-[ too late for me. Nov 24 22:38:24 no worries :-) Nov 24 22:39:41 borg_: Ah, thanks :) Nov 24 22:42:09 any chance to avoid the audio feedback when enabling Mic2 in gsmspeakerout.state ? Nov 24 22:43:27 the f... battery applet is giving timeouts again and screwing it all up... Nov 24 22:43:43 matsimoto: probably be playing around with the mixer Nov 24 22:45:16 hhf423: tried already, but the mic has only 3 steps and when reducing speaker volume it is not loud enough. Looks like a hardware or software workaround issue like echo cancellation!? Nov 24 22:47:58 if my terminal emu is screwed up ad I want to delete a character in vi, which code is that? Nov 24 22:48:15 I mean like "dd" deletes a whole line, what deletes just a char? Nov 24 22:48:29 x Nov 24 22:48:41 matsimoto: yeah, probably. good sound is hardware usually... Nov 24 22:49:20 lets hope that had an eye on that when developing 02 Nov 24 22:49:26 cjb_ie: thanks, that worked Nov 24 22:49:48 matsimoto: sure hope so, but I will not hold my breath :-) Nov 24 22:50:20 :) Nov 24 22:53:12 whooho Nov 24 22:53:43 after providing PIN via libgsmtool and restarting x it now registers Nov 24 22:53:49 pathetic Nov 24 23:04:25 "Unfortunately, a hardware bug in power management with GTA02v4 has required a fifth revision of the hardware for GTA02. It's a bit of a shame that the release will be delayed even further, but I'd rather have good hardware later, than something broken right now." Nov 24 23:04:46 are we now talking after christmas or is that the one that delayed it until christmas? Nov 24 23:05:42 Well. Nov 24 23:05:44 OMG no OM wrapped under christmas tree? Nov 24 23:06:03 heh Nov 24 23:06:12 the 'christmas' date was basically assuming a similar timeline as for GTA01 Nov 24 23:06:24 and some of the milestones have passed by some time now Nov 24 23:06:49 hmmm, ok, I thought that was a re-set date based on a recent hardware revision Nov 24 23:08:01 SpeedEvil: looks like your date would have been about right! Nov 24 23:08:48 so, given that power management still sucks, the hardware is still buggy, and there's lots of software that's just not ready, might it not be an idea to scrap the neo1973 as it stands now? Visually the bar has moved with the iphone. don't get me wrong, I really want a neo, but I think it won't compete at any level other than the hacker one :/ Nov 24 23:08:58 * doc|home wants a neo :( Nov 24 23:09:27 * zash 2 Nov 24 23:09:33 doc|home: buy an iphone if that's what you really want Nov 24 23:09:44 ugh Nov 24 23:09:50 * doc|home feels dirty Nov 24 23:09:59 I'd never touch an iphone Nov 24 23:10:36 don't feel like tweaking mr job's nipples to zoom on the map? Nov 24 23:10:43 at this point there is no reason to ship hardware beond GTA01 until its verified that the hardware works to implied specs Nov 24 23:11:05 * mwester is rather pragmatic, and if he can get an iphone as a business expense, he'd be happy to have one. And he wouldn't feel dirty about it at all ;) Nov 24 23:12:15 I've no interest in the iphone personally, I like the neo as a mini-computer, much like the nokia n800 is, and that's not really what the iphone is. The iphone is whatever apple wants it to be. Nov 24 23:12:34 mwester: Just say it like it is, you like being a bit dirty.. :P Nov 24 23:14:26 doc|home: But I'd love to have one to play with, because I'm curious about what the various vendors want things to be. Vista is rather the same -- if I didn't have to pay for the upgrade and give up a rather expensive bit of hardware, I'd love to play with it (and see if its as bad as everyone says!) Nov 24 23:15:26 mwester: yeah, sure, as long as I could give it back. :) Nov 24 23:16:12 all I'm saying is from the hardware point of view, ignoring the battery stupidity, it's an amazing piece of hardware in how it's so compact. And that's not something that can be said for the neo Nov 24 23:16:19 oh, and, at&t-- Nov 24 23:17:15 Developers, developers, developers, developers... Nov 24 23:19:03 yeah well the developers are doing a great work Nov 24 23:19:06 @ openmoko Nov 24 23:19:08 ! Nov 24 23:19:15 I think... Nov 24 23:19:25 I was just wondering, with the resent hardware revisions to GTA02v4, will it be released before Christmas? Nov 24 23:19:45 StealthCP: I'd say that highly unlikely.. :( Nov 24 23:19:55 Thought so :) Nov 24 23:20:11 * OJW need Nov 24 23:20:16 heh, it's the only thing on my Christmas list, apart from new slippers Nov 24 23:20:35 * OJW needs cryogenic company, to freeze him until it's released Nov 24 23:20:36 OJW: You can't get hold of a GTA01? Nov 24 23:21:09 CM: I aim to use it as a hackable GPS terminal. So kind'a require the GPS Nov 24 23:21:27 But there is gps on gta01 too Nov 24 23:21:39 * OJW looks Nov 24 23:21:42 I'm planning to study Electronics and sw engineering next year, I'd hoped the Neo1973 and OM would be a nie little programming project for me to do :P Nov 24 23:21:53 I've tried it, but I didn't get a fix because I didn't go out in the pouring rain Nov 24 23:22:17 CM: sissie :p Nov 24 23:22:21 it's water powered? :) Nov 24 23:22:25 balrog-kun: Hehe.. :P Nov 24 23:22:38 I didn't want my hair^W Neo wet! Nov 24 23:22:45 right! Nov 24 23:22:54 :P Nov 24 23:22:56 actually SpeedEvil is already doing gps stuff? Nov 24 23:23:11 Sounded like torpor got it working today too Nov 25 00:00:49 is there any earnest non-gllin activity underway? Nov 25 00:01:21 or can we just have the damn bits? Nov 25 00:01:22 lol Nov 25 00:01:31 i really would like to see my GPS actually do *something* Nov 25 00:03:42 daMaestro: `cat /dev/ttySAC1` Nov 25 00:04:14 blah Nov 25 00:04:15 lol Nov 25 00:04:16 thanks. Nov 25 00:04:31 daMaestro: sry... you have no gllin? Nov 25 00:04:50 no, afaik it was not shipped with my device and we can't "download" it Nov 25 00:04:57 * CM thinks everyone should be allowed to have some cupcakes.. ;) Nov 25 00:05:56 really sad... i am a little bit disappointed about the performance of the gps and would like to share experiences... mine always looses 'connection'. Nov 25 00:06:28 I'll try harder tomorrow and see if I can get anywhere Nov 25 00:06:38 emdete: Tried with some kind of external antenna? Nov 25 00:06:56 CM: 'get anywhere'? want to navigate with it? ;) Nov 25 00:07:12 Yeah, you could say that.. :P Nov 25 00:07:16 CM: no, i didn't even know i can... where can i connect it? Nov 25 00:07:39 Not a clue yet.. :( Nov 25 00:07:44 But I want to find out Nov 25 00:08:09 the golden connector on the side of the phone is said to be for a GPS antenna IIRC Nov 25 00:08:20 Yes, it is Nov 25 00:08:25 CoreDump: really? i thought it's GSM Nov 25 00:08:28 But it says "Active antenna" Nov 25 00:09:22 will santa be able to bring me a GTA02 for christmas? Nov 25 00:09:50 I don't think so Nov 25 00:10:00 loufoque: Maybe if he get's help from all his helpers and wins the lottery at the same time Nov 25 00:10:09 But I doubt it.. Nov 25 00:10:41 so the GTA02 being released in december is a fake? Nov 25 00:10:49 daMaestro: http://members.shaw.ca/mmontour/satscan/satacan_1.0-r0_armv4t.ipk will do "something" (very little) with your GPS Nov 25 00:11:08 cool Nov 25 00:11:57 It just scans for signals from the satellites at different doppler shifts, and shows a character indicating signal strength Nov 25 00:12:03 is there a typo in the url? is it satscan or satacan? Nov 25 00:12:30 satscan, sorry (X11 cut/paste is broken in OSX Leopard) Nov 25 00:12:31 or even satancaned...? Nov 25 00:13:02 what does it do - show satelites? Nov 25 00:13:03 emdete: http://members.shaw.ca/mmontour/satscan/satscan_1.0-r0_armv4t.ipk Nov 25 00:13:24 CM: only joking.. Nov 25 00:14:35 emdete: Heh, maybe time for me to get some sleep and really get rid of my cold so I can think straight :) Nov 25 00:17:28 does someone know the fix for the gcc compile problem with mokomakefile? Nov 25 00:18:31 gcc-cross-4.1.2? Nov 25 00:18:51 yes, think so... (i restartet compile just a minute ago to check) Nov 25 00:19:02 there is no fix yet Nov 25 00:19:15 oups, so no way to compile something? Nov 25 00:19:47 nope Nov 25 00:19:55 with is bloody annoying Nov 25 00:20:20 didnt know it so earnest - someone working on it? what's behind it? Nov 25 00:21:08 someone messed up an update involving the fortran compiler AFAICT Nov 25 00:21:22 you could revert your tree two days or so Nov 25 00:21:25 fortran? you are joking! Nov 25 00:21:37 i wish :) Nov 25 00:22:12 so we get fortran on the neo? wow... Nov 25 00:22:38 Hey! Don't knock fortran. My first job was with an operating system written in FORTRAN IV. Nov 25 00:22:51 what a pain Nov 25 00:23:24 It's nice to see that somebody, somewhere, has seen the light after all these decades, and has **UPGRADED** the toolchain so that we can write an operating system in a **PROPER** language. Like FORTRAN IV. Nov 25 00:23:33 * mwester suspects that COBOL is next. Nov 25 00:23:45 why not INTERCAL? Nov 25 00:23:49 mwester: nonono lets use ada Nov 25 00:23:56 to bad he breaks the toolchain with basically every commit he does =) Nov 25 00:23:59 gotta love COME FROM instead of GOTO Nov 25 00:24:53 anyone got a known-working OE rev? Nov 25 00:25:04 CoreDump: Yeah. I've noticed. I don't know who the gentleman is either, I haven't seem him about in #oe or on the mailing list. Nov 25 00:25:20 same here Nov 25 00:26:14 this is cool...openmoko-messages actually kind of works for me :) ...a few bugs, but I managed to send and receive SMS's to/from a couple phones with a build I did about an hour ago Nov 25 00:26:45 moko-bunny, good news ;-D Nov 25 00:27:04 i can confirm this ;) Nov 25 00:27:09 overall i'm very satisfied with the progress being made on the platform Nov 25 00:27:12 tetsted it some hours ago too Nov 25 00:27:41 i need to find/make a good case for it before using the neo1973 as my day to day phone Nov 25 00:27:42 yeah :) I think I need some kinda purge thing for my poor old ancient TDMA phone (don't laugh ;) ) I seem to have sent too big of a message to it :) Nov 25 00:27:52 * mwester is still building, since *SOMEBODY* decided we needed FORTRAN, and broke the toolchain! But he'd like to check out the SMS stuff too. Nov 25 00:29:53 long time no community update Nov 25 00:29:55 updates* Nov 25 00:30:02 Yeah. Silence. Nov 25 00:31:26 normally I'd say silence is golden, but I'd really like the gllin and gsm things wrapped up (sorry for whining) Nov 25 00:32:13 hehe Nov 25 00:32:44 Well, we can get the GSM firmware upgraded by mailing the device to MichaelShiloh personally, IIRC. THe GSM thing is with the lawyers, so there's no predicting when or if that'll happen. And the 850 MHz -- well, I think FIC/OM have had plenty of time to consider that situation, and I think they know what they plan. Nov 25 00:33:03 If they have good news, I guess I'd expect it to be announced, like, right about now. Nov 25 00:33:31 If they have bad news, well, what's in it for them to announce it? Nov 25 00:35:42 mew: maintaining some level of transparancy and belief in timelines. Nov 25 00:35:59 yeah, I've mulled sending my unit to Michael. I'm undecided on the 850. It looks like 1900 coverage is pretty thorough here in eastern washington (state), but I've found a few places I can't seem to get anything. Nov 25 00:37:39 I'll be sending mine in. T-Mobile doesn't do data on pay-as-you-go, and I'm paying *a lot* for my Cingular/AT&T SIM with the unlimited data plan for my real phone. Nov 25 01:30:03 mwester: there no guarantee further firmware chages won't be required. Nov 25 01:30:52 the mux, for example, is basically working but not stress tested and some have reported some problems. Nov 25 01:31:06 mux on ti side, that is Nov 25 01:33:35 anybody else have basic PM problems on 2.6.23? oops unregistering serial devices? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 25 02:59:56 2007