**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 01 02:59:57 2007
Dec 01 03:02:00 <tick> jserv--,  After testing for 15 times, I think removing the sleep(1) is ok. 
Dec 01 03:05:49 <CIA-14> 03tick * r3547 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/gsmd.c: gsmd: remove a dummy sleep(1) (Tick)
Dec 01 03:16:11 <jserv--> tick, thanks
Dec 01 03:16:21 <tick> jserv--, welcome
Dec 01 03:30:26 <jserv--> tick, BTW, how about splitting phonebook from usock.c?
Dec 01 03:31:50 <tick> jserv--, L. Sean is working on phonebook stuff and I will ask him about this
Dec 01 03:32:01 <jserv--> tick, cool
Dec 01 04:35:39 <niklauz> i all, hows it going?
Dec 01 04:35:52 <niklauz> *hi
Dec 01 05:13:09 <linuxxr> and the word is?
Dec 01 05:13:32 <HistoryOnTheRoad> up
Dec 01 05:19:44 <xzcvczx> down
Dec 01 05:22:51 <tonyg_> I'm really having bad luck with builds over the past few days.
Dec 01 05:23:10 <tonyg_> Now I'm seeing mtn: network error: failed to connect: Connection refused
Dec 01 05:23:19 <tonyg_> in reference to monotone.openmoko.org
Dec 01 05:41:58 <CIA-14> 03rwhitby * r168 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added update-stable and update-bleeding-edge convenience targets
Dec 01 05:42:36 <rwhitby> make update-bleeding-edge goes to monotone.openembedded.org
Dec 01 05:46:53 <tonyg_> rwhitby, that seems to be the default I have in my OE.mtn, too
Dec 01 05:47:03 <tonyg_> perhaps that's the source of my woes
Dec 01 05:50:15 * mjr is on a train with his neo and gprs :]
Dec 01 05:54:23 <mjr> one wonders, though
Dec 01 05:54:32 <Dwight2> about?
Dec 01 05:54:37 <mjr> is iptables available in some package? couldn't find it
Dec 01 05:54:57 <mjr> would like to nat my laptop
Dec 01 05:57:34 <HistoryOnTheRoad> hmmmm.
Dec 01 05:58:01 <HistoryOnTheRoad> If I munged my rootfs, do I have to NAND erase it to reflash a known good rootfs?
Dec 01 05:58:22 <mjr> if you don't have a sufficiently new uboot (newer than factory)
Dec 01 05:58:41 <HistoryOnTheRoad> ah
Dec 01 05:58:55 <mjr> don't recall the exact versions
Dec 01 06:00:31 <SpeedEvil> nand erase rootfs works
Dec 01 06:00:57 <mjr> it does
Dec 01 06:00:58 <SpeedEvil> as does dd if=/dev/zero of=/whateverthepartition
Dec 01 06:01:34 <SpeedEvil> however, that will crash the nand access, and you'll need to reboot
Dec 01 06:01:36 <SpeedEvil> but...
Dec 01 06:02:26 <SpeedEvil> mjr: if you're lazy - ssh works as a socks repearer
Dec 01 06:02:39 <mjr> oh yeah, I forgot about that
Dec 01 06:02:40 <mjr> thanks
Dec 01 06:02:46 <mjr> (I am)
Dec 01 06:02:48 <SpeedEvil> remember to use it for nameservice too
Dec 01 06:04:17 <HistoryOnTheRoad> Now if I could only figure out where Debian hides the damned serial term program
Dec 01 06:05:21 <tonyg_> wah, monotone.openmoko.org connection refused still ;-(
Dec 01 06:09:43 <HistoryOnTheRoad> Look at that. Apt works much better with a working sources.list
Dec 01 06:15:03 <HistoryOnTheRoad> SpeedEvil: Thanks for the tip, once I get serial term working I'll try that.
Dec 01 06:21:27 <SpeedEvil> just remember - nand erase = brick
Dec 01 06:21:33 <SpeedEvil> nand erase rootfs = ok
Dec 01 06:21:51 <HistoryOnTheRoad> heh heh
Dec 01 06:22:06 <HistoryOnTheRoad> I'm in Canada, it would be a puck
Dec 01 06:22:39 <HistoryOnTheRoad> I followed the wiki page
Dec 01 06:22:42 <HistoryOnTheRoad> nand erase clean rootfs
Dec 01 06:22:57 <HistoryOnTheRoad> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Nand_erase
Dec 01 06:24:33 <HistoryOnTheRoad> Well, busting my neo's filesystem got me to unbust my Debian here to get the neo going again. It would be nice if just once everything worked in harmony
Dec 01 06:25:32 <HistoryOnTheRoad> So, as long as the wiki is right, I'm ok
Dec 01 06:25:55 <HistoryOnTheRoad> the dfu download seems to be going though
Dec 01 06:34:56 * xzcvczx promotes nnpiggy to g0d status
Dec 01 06:38:43 <HistoryOnTheRoad> SpeedEvil: WOW, am I impressed :D
Dec 01 06:40:02 <HistoryOnTheRoad> ok, n/m, it looks impressive because the clock and date seemed right :P
Dec 01 07:47:10 <torpor> wtf?
Dec 01 07:47:10 <torpor> mtn: connecting to monotone.openmoko.org
Dec 01 07:47:10 <torpor> mtn: network error: failed to connect: Connection refused
Dec 01 07:48:39 <torpor> mjr: how'd you get gprs working?
Dec 01 07:49:44 <mjr> as per wiki instructions (well, I also disabled lcp echoes, but am not sure it's essential)
Dec 01 07:50:40 <torpor> well it sure is nice to hear you got it working .. i'd also like to be using my neo as a gprs gateway for my laptop .. 
Dec 01 07:50:44 <torpor> hell, put squid on there too .. ;)
Dec 01 07:51:27 <mjr> it would be nice if it could receive phonecalls while doing this, but not so important ;]
Dec 01 07:52:29 <HistoryOnTheRoad> Does anyone know if mounting/detecting the SD card is busted in the latest scaredycat image?
Dec 01 07:54:16 <HistoryOnTheRoad> It doesn't seem devfs is making a node for the SD card. root issue, or maybe a module mismatch? :S
Dec 01 08:09:48 <tonyg> how do I force a .bb file to use a particular automake version?
Dec 01 08:09:56 <tonyg> i have some code that needs 1.9.6
Dec 01 08:10:01 <tonyg> but oe defaults to 1.9.3
Dec 01 08:11:02 <DukeOfURL> `does anyone know why monotone.openmoko.org is refusing connections?
Dec 01 08:12:32 <tonyg> DukeOfURL, no, but you're the third to report the problem in the last couple of hours
Dec 01 08:12:34 <tonyg> I get it too
Dec 01 08:56:04 <rwhitby> use make update-bleeding-edge if you want to use the bleeding edge OE server instead.
Dec 01 09:06:23 <Sup3rkiddo> is the uboot-mkimage not found error while building linux-openmoko a known thing?
Dec 01 09:07:14 <Sup3rkiddo> ..and is monotone.openmoko.org down or something?
Dec 01 09:10:18 <rwhitby> Sup3rkiddo: Looks like OM needs some experience in running a monotone server :-)
Dec 01 09:11:46 <rwhitby> (i.e. I bet they don't have a cron job which checks every minute to make sure the monotone server is still running, like nslu2-linux does)
Dec 01 09:12:09 <mjr> ...
Dec 01 09:12:10 <mjr> right
Dec 01 09:12:19 <Sup3rkiddo> so i guess i will check bugzilla for it, but the uboot-mkimage stuff?
Dec 01 09:17:24 <torpor> i wanna make an openmoko t-shirt.
Dec 01 09:17:29 <torpor> it basically says this: " Running task 1012 of 5065 "
Dec 01 09:21:28 <Sup3rkiddo> 1076 here
Dec 01 09:21:32 <Sup3rkiddo> i have the lead
Dec 01 09:28:19 <torpor> too bad we can't share cycles.
Dec 01 09:29:53 <Sup3rkiddo> too bad i hit the wall while building linux-openmoko :/
Dec 01 09:33:30 <josch> my openmoko shirt would say: NOTE: build 200712011033: completed :-D
Dec 01 09:34:59 <Sup3rkiddo> josch: bah
Dec 01 09:36:40 <Sup3rkiddo> josch: I dare you to make update-bleeding-edge and then talk
Dec 01 09:37:00 <rwhitby> Mine would say: "mtn:     1.3 k |     1.5 k |      4/1034 |     2/1245"
Dec 01 09:37:08 <josch> Sup3rkiddo, I know.... monotone server is down :-(
Dec 01 09:37:44 <Sup3rkiddo> josch: thats the openmoko server, openembedded is up and i have payed the price for it
Dec 01 09:38:14 <rwhitby> someone who has downloaded last from openmoko just needs to open up a port and let everyone else sync from them.  In monotone, there is no central server.
Dec 01 09:38:44 * Sup3rkiddo looks around for volunteers
Dec 01 09:47:30 * rwhitby notices e17 stuff building ...
Dec 01 09:47:54 * josch confirms e17 running nicely on openmoko
Dec 01 09:50:55 <Dvalin> does anyone know if openmoko may run on A1200 too, not only A1200E? and about any howtos for it? :)
Dec 01 09:50:59 <torpor> how does one get e17 started on the neo?  is there some deep hackery involved?
Dec 01 10:18:33 <josch> torpor, it's very very very easy
Dec 01 10:18:44 <josch> torpor, make build-package-e-wm
Dec 01 10:18:53 <josch> torpor, then ipkg install e-wm
Dec 01 10:18:57 <josch> reboot
Dec 01 10:18:58 <josch> done
Dec 01 10:19:20 <leila> not exactly deep hackery :)
Dec 01 10:19:53 <josch> I didn't believe it when someone told me the same but I tried and it's true ^^
Dec 01 10:20:16 <torpor> but then this replaces the standard gui right?
Dec 01 10:20:27 <torpor> how do we go back and forth?
Dec 01 10:20:41 <josch> torpor, it's just some linking
Dec 01 10:20:45 <torpor> i'd like to try e out for sure, but i don't want to impede my ability to work on a standard app.
Dec 01 10:20:51 <josch> torpor, ipkg informs you about what it links
Dec 01 10:20:54 <torpor> (since i don't think e is gonna be standard any time soon)
Dec 01 10:36:38 <wucheng> hi,how could i start a console in my qemu neo1973?
Dec 01 10:43:13 <rwhitby> hopefully e uses update-alternatives, which would mean that our old wm returns after you uninstall e-wm
Dec 01 10:45:15 <Tyrael> Hi, is http://monotone.openmoko.org/ down?
Dec 01 10:45:20 <torpor> yes
Dec 01 10:45:22 <josch> wucheng, under applications
Dec 01 10:50:02 <bluelightning> wow... http://blog.automated.it/2007/11/30/openmoko-gllin-eula/
Dec 01 10:50:03 <bluelightning> lovely
Dec 01 10:51:50 <_diego__> how can i extract a .jffs2 file?
Dec 01 10:52:07 <ruxpin> _diego__: it's in the wiki
Dec 01 10:52:31 <ruxpin> _diego__: not a one-step process
Dec 01 10:53:37 <_diego__> can u give me a pointer? Till now i just get instruction about creating jffs2 image ^^
Dec 01 11:22:12 <zilux`> _diego__: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Userspace_root_image#Mounting_the_JFFS2_image_on_a_loop_back_.28MTD_RAM.29_device 
Dec 01 11:33:57 <_diego__> thx
Dec 01 11:34:26 <yoyo_> hellow
Dec 01 11:48:32 <tonyg> Sup3rkiddo, I got up to uboot-mkimage problems with the kernel, too :(
Dec 01 11:49:45 <tonyg> "linux-openmoko-2.6.22.5-moko11+svnr3238-r10/temp/run.do_compile.29665: line 732: uboot-mkimage: command not found"
Dec 01 12:00:45 <yoyo_> ohh no my mtn can't pull :/ from monotone
Dec 01 12:01:19 <tonyg> Sup3rkiddo, there's a simple fix: (cd build; . ../setup-env; bitbake uboot-openmoko) - then a make openmoko-devel-image will proceed past the uboot-mkimage problem
Dec 01 12:01:22 <tonyg> yay
Dec 01 12:01:36 <tonyg> yoyo_, yes, the server is down :-(
Dec 01 12:01:53 <yoyo_> tonyg: for how long ?
Dec 01 12:01:55 <tonyg> if you want updates you'll have to use monotone.openembedded.org, which is bleeding-edge
Dec 01 12:01:59 <tonyg> I have no idea, sorry
Dec 01 12:02:14 <tonyg> but it's been that way for at least 6 hours
Dec 01 12:04:55 <tonyg> 1221 of 3649...
Dec 01 12:04:56 <tonyg> sigh
Dec 01 12:05:12 <tonyg> us humans have really got to start making progress on the strong AI front
Dec 01 12:05:28 <tonyg> so we don't have to spend our lives gently encouraging things like openembedded builds along
Dec 01 12:05:46 <Sup3rkiddo> tonyg: thanks, will take a look]
Dec 01 12:09:51 <torpor> tonyg: we don't need AI.  we need to trust each other enough to share a single build system.
Dec 01 12:10:09 <tonyg> :)
Dec 01 12:10:30 <Sup3rkiddo> Artificial intelligence = Human Stupidity
Dec 01 12:10:34 <Sup3rkiddo> right, apt?
Dec 01 12:13:30 <josch> ~fish apt
Dec 01 12:13:31 * apt slaps apt around with a large trout
Dec 01 12:13:48 <josch> yeah, right
Dec 01 12:18:43 <edistar_> btw, has anyone thought of porting prelink to OM?
Dec 01 12:19:37 <Mononoke> what about having apt by default packed in openmoko ? :P
Dec 01 12:20:11 <Mononoke> openmoko could become real HAL9000
Dec 01 12:20:31 <Sup3rkiddo> Mononoke: reminds me of "Clippy"
Dec 01 12:22:22 <Mononoke> oh does M$ Office still use Clippy?
Dec 01 12:41:33 <PBeck> hi
Dec 01 12:43:55 <Sup3rkiddo> hi
Dec 01 13:15:57 <tonyg> 1547 of 3649...
Dec 01 13:19:42 <Sup3rkiddo> on webkit
Dec 01 13:20:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1062 has been created by mickey(AT)vanille-media.de
Dec 01 13:20:01 <cdbot2> * * While ringing, dialer does not recognize when peer hangs up
Dec 01 13:20:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1062
Dec 01 13:21:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1063 has been created by mickey(AT)vanille-media.de
Dec 01 13:21:01 <cdbot2> * * Today crashes when clicking on "missed call"
Dec 01 13:21:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1063
Dec 01 13:36:34 <tonyg> w00t. got erlang's gtknode to compile and package. now to try running the hello-world example, in erlang, on my cellphone...
Dec 01 13:37:01 <josch> | configure: error: could not find Python headers <= in which package can I find these headers??
Dec 01 13:45:32 <zedstar> tonyg did u try scheme on your phone?
Dec 01 13:46:08 <tonyg> zedstar, not yet. i'm unsure which variant would be best at POSIXy things (like serial port access, process control, raw file I/O etc)
Dec 01 13:46:15 <tonyg> or even UI
Dec 01 13:46:46 <zedstar> tongy i packaged chicken which is pretty good at most things
Dec 01 13:46:52 <tonyg> ah, chicken.
Dec 01 13:46:54 <tonyg> yeah, it's ok.
Dec 01 13:47:29 <tonyg> the C ffi is pretty good.
Dec 01 13:47:40 <tonyg> that's probably a good choice for an embedded system.
Dec 01 13:47:41 <zedstar> tonyg yeh i just write my own bindings for gtk
Dec 01 13:47:53 <tonyg> good fun :-)
Dec 01 13:48:07 <zedstar> be nice if there was a decent gtk egg
Dec 01 13:48:09 <tonyg> did you see my old gtk2 bindings for chicken?
Dec 01 13:48:21 <zedstar> is it an egg/
Dec 01 13:48:22 <zedstar> ?
Dec 01 13:48:30 <tonyg> the one problem I've found with chicken is that it's still very fast-moving, so things break all the time
Dec 01 13:48:38 <tonyg> or at least, that was my impression a couple of years ago
Dec 01 13:48:43 <tonyg> yes, it was an egg
Dec 01 13:48:50 <tonyg> it will need some care and attention to get running again
Dec 01 13:49:04 <tonyg> because the macro system, ffi etc have changed since I last worked on it
Dec 01 13:49:10 <zedstar> ah ok yeh... i dont use that many features of gtk so i think easier to glue myself
Dec 01 13:49:16 <tonyg> probably
Dec 01 13:49:26 <tonyg> well, up to a point
Dec 01 13:50:05 <zedstar> the ffi is really nice i think ..easy to use but yeh some confusing changes
Dec 01 13:52:25 <tonyg> hmm. looks like tony sidaway has taken my old code and done some work on it. cool! perhaps you should check it out - it's at http://trac.callcc.org/browser/gtk2/trunk , but I've not tried it myself
Dec 01 13:53:18 <zedstar> yeh i remember somebody working on it but went quiet will have to take a look again
Dec 01 15:16:35 <cesarb> How can i switch to a running application in the home screen? I used to do it by clicking on the application on the list, but that isn't doing anything right now
Dec 01 15:17:42 <cesarb> nm, the AUX key did the trick
Dec 01 15:20:49 <cesarb> ...and it crashed because I decided to unplug the USB while locked via the power menu. lovely.
Dec 01 16:01:42 <cesarb> Great, I got a 3D fix by going to a nearby park, and now it got a fix even by just being near a window... Unfortunately, it just turned off by itself and won't turn on again.
Dec 01 16:02:06 * cesarb suspects the battery display in the status bar is completely bogus and the battery was at the end
Dec 01 16:17:06 <cesarb> Great, and my multimeter is returning bogus values, so I cannot even check the voltage
Dec 01 16:20:34 * cesarb manages to measure 3.91V without load
Dec 01 16:27:49 <_diego__> what's wrong with 3.91v?
Dec 01 16:35:31 <cesarb> _diego__: that's without load. the voltage with load is what matters.
Dec 01 16:36:05 <cesarb> _diego__: but perhaps someone else in this channel knows the voltage without load of a "dead" battery and of a fully charged one
Dec 01 16:36:44 * cesarb is only annoyed because now I have to wait to get the NMEA log from the flash so I can check on google maps if it's making sense...
Dec 01 16:42:09 <Sup3rkiddo> anyone know if zecke had his flu patched
Dec 01 16:44:42 <mmontour> cesarb: low-battery voltage is around 2.8V. You should be fine at 3.91V
Dec 01 16:45:23 <cesarb> mmontour: but without load? (voltages are higher without load, and the "nominal" is 3.7, which is probably a "with load" value)
Dec 01 16:46:18 <_diego__> 3.9 looks like a tipical full charged battery
Dec 01 16:49:05 <cesarb> _diego__: fully charged it isn't, I was outside for several minutes with GPS/GSM enabled to try to get a fix, and the battery hadn't been fully recharged from when I went around the apartment yesterday trying to do the same
Dec 01 16:49:19 * cesarb has heard enough horror stories to let the neo charging overnight
Dec 01 16:49:30 <mmontour> cesarb: the load current will be very small when the phone is off. Have you tried replacing the battery, connecting the usb power, then turning it on?
Dec 01 16:50:50 <cesarb> yes, and it didn't turn on even with usb plugged. right now I'm leaving it for an hour after the unplug/remove battery/insert battery/plug dance
Dec 01 16:50:52 <Ebbe> cesarb: Which horror stories?
Dec 01 16:51:13 <cesarb> Ebbe: things like letting it charge for a week and then it won't turn on anymore
Dec 01 16:51:17 <_diego__> several minute should not be a problem, except for minutes something like 200 ^^
Dec 01 16:51:37 <Ebbe> cesarb: Creepy..
Dec 01 16:51:52 <cesarb> _diego__: summing yesterday and today, it probably was something like 2 hours off the wire
Dec 01 16:52:21 <cesarb> _diego__: not counting the times the battery was outside the case
Dec 01 16:53:09 <mmontour> If the phone is not shut down properly, the GSM modem and the audio amplifier can continue to draw current directly from the battery
Dec 01 16:53:38 <mmontour> Also, there was a uboot bug where the PMU was configured to only charge at 50 mA rather than 100 mA in the "pre-charge mode"
Dec 01 16:54:04 <mmontour> This could lead to a scenario where the phone was plugged in, but with a net charging current of almost 0
Dec 01 16:57:03 <zilux`> 17640*.544
Dec 01 16:57:14 <zilux`> sorry
Dec 01 16:59:30 <_diego__> ok, in my experience, often is possible to recover the phone in a couple of hour
Dec 01 17:00:02 <_diego__> and i've still the same uboot of august
Dec 01 17:00:30 <cesarb> _diego__: me too, I'm still on the "august snapshot" uboot
Dec 01 17:01:23 <cesarb> but this is the first time I actually took the neo outside... so most of the time the battery is nearly full (and plugged in), and I never had it power off on me like that
Dec 01 17:02:34 <_diego__> dont worry, is happened a lot of time to me
Dec 01 17:03:10 <_diego__> usually, i remove the battery, press button power for a couple of second
Dec 01 17:03:33 <_diego__> put the battery back, and i tried again
Dec 01 17:04:16 <_diego__> if the battery is charged enough it should boot ^^
Dec 01 17:05:03 <cesarb> yay, worked again
Dec 01 17:05:14 <cesarb> less than the "1 hour" of charge the wiki said
Dec 01 17:05:49 * cesarb waits until it finishes booting to plug his rusty old zire usb cable and get the NMEA logs
Dec 01 17:07:49 <cesarb> cat /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/battvolt
Dec 01 17:07:49 <cesarb> 3662
Dec 01 17:08:23 <cesarb> cat /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/battemp
Dec 01 17:08:24 <cesarb> -5
Dec 01 17:15:24 <borg_> is there a reason that the /etc/resolv.conf on my gets overwritten on each restart?
Dec 01 17:15:37 <borg_> s/on my/on my neo/
Dec 01 17:15:37 <apt> borg_ meant: is there a reason that the /etc/resolv.conf on my neo gets overwritten on each restart?
Dec 01 17:17:07 <Magon> borg_: yes..resolvconf ? isnt it just symlink?
Dec 01 17:17:32 <borg_> yes, it is a symlink to /var/run/resolv.conf
Dec 01 17:17:39 <borg_> but this gets overwritten too
Dec 01 17:17:55 <Magon> it is in /var/run..so it is supposed to
Dec 01 17:18:02 <Magon> try /etc/resolvconf/*
Dec 01 17:18:27 <borg_> there is nothing like that
Dec 01 17:18:44 <borg_> i know that it is probably supposed
Dec 01 17:18:46 <borg_> but why?
Dec 01 17:19:00 <Magon> there is probably resolvconf program
Dec 01 17:19:13 <borg_> i cant find anything
Dec 01 17:19:15 <borg_> mhmh
Dec 01 17:19:36 <Marcel_M> borg_: /etc/network/interfaces
Dec 01 17:19:46 <Magon> ok..it has no binary, but it is definetly that :-)
Dec 01 17:20:07 <Magon> i have it on my box too, but dont know how it works exactly
Dec 01 17:20:38 <borg_> Marcel_M: i can configure my nameserver and "search lan" thingy in the interfaces config?
Dec 01 17:20:39 <cesarb> Yay, Google Maps shows me precisely where I got my first 3D fix :D
Dec 01 17:21:23 <Marcel_M> jo take a look 
Dec 01 17:22:47 <Marcel_M> borg_: http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=m391031d2
Dec 01 17:24:58 <borg_> ah ok, but thats kind of a hack ;)
Dec 01 17:24:59 <borg_> thx
Dec 01 17:25:41 <Marcel_M> it works
Dec 01 17:25:43 <Marcel_M> ;)
Dec 01 18:24:16 <NineX> can someone tell me why newest versions of u-boot dosn't support boot from SD?
Dec 01 18:25:29 <balrog-kun> u-boot doesn't interact with SD in any way afaik
Dec 01 18:25:35 <balrog-kun> the booting is done by the kernel
Dec 01 18:27:11 <mmontour> balrog-kun: u-boot crashes when it tries to load the kernel from SD
Dec 01 18:27:49 <polz> can anyone here tell me where to download gllin ?
Dec 01 18:27:53 <balrog-kun> oh, kkernel from SD
Dec 01 18:28:07 <polz> the site mentioned on the mailing list doesn't seem to work anymore
Dec 01 18:28:11 <xzcvczx> polz: planet.openmoko.org
Dec 01 18:28:13 <NineX> there are versions of u-boot that can load kernel from sd
Dec 01 18:28:15 <xzcvczx> polz: says there
Dec 01 18:30:05 <polz> xzcvczx: I tried thirdparty.openmoko.org or something...
Dec 01 18:30:18 <polz> and it just keeps serving me the EULA
Dec 01 18:31:34 <roh> disable adblocker/referrer-blocking plugins
Dec 01 18:31:56 <roh> sometimes also ff seems to drop all referrers.. quit and restart it and it works again
Dec 01 18:32:09 <polz> roh: I'm using konqueror
Dec 01 18:32:36 <polz> and I get as far as the downloads directory...
Dec 01 18:32:43 <polz> I can even click on the file
Dec 01 18:33:08 <polz> but the server just serves the EULA, packaged neatly in a .ipk file
Dec 01 18:33:14 <NineX> somethink is gucked up
Dec 01 18:33:18 <balrog-kun> firefox didn't work for me but elinks worked perfectly
Dec 01 18:33:25 <polz> btw, is anyone here using openmoko as their daily phone yet ?
Dec 01 18:33:35 <polz> balrog-kun: 10x, I'll try that
Dec 01 18:33:44 <xzcvczx> polz: i might be but my ts dont work
Dec 01 18:34:07 <NineX> http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/?Decline=Decline
Dec 01 18:34:49 <NineX> if you Decline EULA download works ;)
Dec 01 18:34:53 <NineX> funy error
Dec 01 18:34:56 <polz> NineX: huh ? We're supposed to _decline_ the EULA ? :)
Dec 01 18:35:07 <NineX> polz: try
Dec 01 18:35:13 <polz> it didn't work before, but 10x for the idea :)
Dec 01 18:35:48 <mwester> Darn!  I didn't think to try to decline it.  Then I'd have the software, and I wouldn't be bound by the silly EULA.  ("comfort" is not guaranteed, apparently... anyone read that thing?)
Dec 01 18:36:28 <xzcvczx> mwester: i dont know anyone who reads EULA's
Dec 01 18:37:12 <mwester> After all the fuss, I just wanted to know what on earth could have taken the bleeding lawyers so many MONTHS to do.
Dec 01 18:37:15 <balrog-kun> quiet enjoyment is also not included :(
Dec 01 18:37:28 <xzcvczx> mwester: the longer they take the more they can charge
Dec 01 18:37:34 <mwester> Exactly.
Dec 01 18:37:37 <polz> mwester: apparently, if you create an alternative driver, you're just not allowed to use gllin anymore
Dec 01 18:37:56 <xzcvczx> lol
Dec 01 18:38:33 <polz> at least that's what I think it says
Dec 01 18:38:42 <mwester> I think the "quiet enjoyment" part is just saying that you agree to permit Broadcom to harass/sue/litigate you personally, even though you didn't get the software from Broadcom.
Dec 01 18:39:19 <roh> btw.. the accept/decline variables say nothing.
Dec 01 18:40:34 <polz> it still doesn't work for me, even if I decline
Dec 01 18:40:55 <roh> polz which browser, and do you use a proxy?
Dec 01 18:41:47 <polz> OK, elinks seems to work
Dec 01 18:41:58 <polz> at least it's downloading something
Dec 01 18:42:17 <polz> before elinks, I tried konqueror, firefox and dillo
Dec 01 18:42:24 <polz> none of which worked
Dec 01 18:42:24 <xzcvczx> polz: if its over a few kb it'll be the real thing
Dec 01 18:42:47 <polz> xzcvczx: yeah, the progress bar says it's going to be around 1.9M
Dec 01 18:43:00 <polz> so this should be it
Dec 01 18:43:01 <polz> wheee
Dec 01 18:43:20 <polz> anyway, is anyone using openmoko as their everyday phone ?
Dec 01 18:43:39 <roh> polz your konqueror does not send referrers.
Dec 01 18:46:24 <roh> polz ah.. it does..  and from here it looks like a successful download with konq.
Dec 01 18:46:44 <polz> I don't know what exactly is broken...
Dec 01 18:47:02 <polz> but as long as I get the binary, I don't care anymore
Dec 01 18:47:29 <polz> I'm tired of explaining to everyone how the neo contains a GPS receiver but you can't use it.
Dec 01 18:48:20 <polz> btw, what happened to monotone.openmoko.org this night ?
Dec 01 18:49:50 <roh> happened?
Dec 01 18:54:39 <CVirus> Can the GTA02 wireless chipset go into Monitor mode ?
Dec 01 18:56:14 <polz> roh: it seems to be working now, but last night it just kept refusing connections
Dec 01 18:58:30 <roh> interresting. i can see no problem from here
Dec 01 19:00:22 <polz> roh: hehe, the more time I spend trying to fiddle with my neo, the more it feels like I'm a PEBKAC :)
Dec 01 19:00:44 <roh> well.. if you'd ask me, i would have put it just onto the httpd.. but sinc ethe eula can and will ne interpreted differently in the us, europe and asia we decided to play it save
Dec 01 19:02:16 <roh> which means, first you have to read and accept the eula, then you can download/get it. by downloading you accept the eula, but since this is kinda implicit some could argue they have not seen the eula first. thats why we enforce reading the eula first. sorry about that
Dec 01 19:02:22 <polz> I hope someone with more gray matter than myself will find the time to restart the sphyrna project, now that the gllin has become widely available
Dec 01 19:02:52 <roh> polz: yeah ;) i would love to see that working.. i just do not believe its so simple as some think.
Dec 01 19:03:36 <roh> polz also its proably better someone outside the us hacks on that, but thats just a guess.. i am no lawyer
Dec 01 19:05:28 <mmontour> polz: the main reason for that project stalling was that the chipset was changed for GTA02 - less motivation to spend a lot of time on it if it's only relevant to GTA01 owners
Dec 01 19:07:49 <polz> mmontour: that and the fact that only a few people have access to a Neo with a working GPS.
Dec 01 19:09:15 <polz> roh: that's why I hope some genius finds enough free time to build a free driver anyway
Dec 01 19:10:24 <mwester> Yeah, the GTA01 hardware has proven to be more "throw-away" than initially hoped, it seems.
Dec 01 19:11:10 <moko-bunny> the free GPS driver would go well with my pulse-jet project :D  (kidding...)
Dec 01 19:13:01 <roh> mwester: not really. but it was clear from the beginning that its only the enabler to get real work done on the software-side.
Dec 01 19:13:12 <mmontour> polz: You can do some things without a working Neo, by interpreting other people's 'strace' logs of the data to/from the GPS hardware
Dec 01 19:13:31 <CVirus> Can the GTA02 wireless chipset go into Monitor mode ?
Dec 01 19:13:56 <roh> i am quite fine with the hw in total, since we really worked hard to get all serious bugs out in the sold revision. we need to do the same for gta02.
Dec 01 19:14:18 <roh> CVirus i do not know if the firmware from atheros supports that.
Dec 01 19:14:21 <mmontour> For example, nobody has yet figured out how to extract the satellite navigation data (almanac, timestamp, etc) from the strace data, but it must be in there somewhere
Dec 01 19:15:17 <CVirus> roh: how can we know ?
Dec 01 19:15:22 <zdanek> greetings all
Dec 01 19:15:56 <roh> CVirus when sameos driver is done
Dec 01 19:15:58 <zdanek> anybody knows if included media player can play avi files?
Dec 01 19:16:10 <zdanek> it asks me for proper plugin
Dec 01 19:16:15 <CVirus> roh: sameos ?
Dec 01 19:16:16 <zdanek> is any available?
Dec 01 19:16:41 <roh> CVirus he is working on the wifi driver. its not complete yet.
Dec 01 19:16:51 <CVirus> I see
Dec 01 19:17:02 <CVirus> roh: any status page ?
Dec 01 19:17:17 <roh> first it needs to work. then we can do fancy stuff with it later
Dec 01 19:17:34 <roh> CVirus not really.. you can read the svn log mails :=
Dec 01 19:17:41 <CVirus> gah .. okay .. thanks alot
Dec 01 19:18:46 <roh> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2007-November/003175.html
Dec 01 19:19:02 <roh> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2007-November/003172.html
Dec 01 19:19:18 <zdanek> ping
Dec 01 19:19:53 <Christoph> Hi, nice to see everybody talking about GPS, but has anybody got gllin runing according to Michael's post from friday?  
Dec 01 19:19:57 <CVirus> roh: aren't there linux drivers already for the AR6K ?
Dec 01 19:19:57 <Christoph> Everything  I get after executing ./gllin is a 'gllin:  early exit(3) in halInit()/681' and an empty /tmp/nmeaNP :-(
Dec 01 19:20:23 <borg_> Christoph: works nice here
Dec 01 19:20:31 <roh> CVirus we are using that. but we needed a working s3c2442 hci first which uses the same api
Dec 01 19:20:32 <borg_> and this early exit thingy is normal
Dec 01 19:20:38 <zdanek> as far as I remember it did that way always
Dec 01 19:20:49 <zdanek> but it should dump nmea
Dec 01 19:20:52 <CVirus> roh: sorry but what's that ?
Dec 01 19:21:02 <roh> the host controller interface
Dec 01 19:21:05 <CVirus> hmm
Dec 01 19:21:29 <roh> like the controller for the sdio interface
Dec 01 19:21:40 <CVirus> I understand
Dec 01 19:22:25 <Vegar> is the ar6k driver using the new 80211 subsystem?
Dec 01 19:22:50 <roh> Vegar i dunno. but it would be nice if thats possible, yes
Dec 01 19:23:29 <Vegar> it certainly would
Dec 01 19:23:34 <roh> our focus is currently getting all drivers to work first, to check and validate the hardware design.
Dec 01 19:24:02 <CVirus> roh: when do you excpet this to be done ?
Dec 01 19:24:10 <roh> when thats done we need to polish them to a state where we can push the whole changeset chopped into handy functional blocks to go upstream.
Dec 01 19:24:42 <roh> CVirus i do not know
Dec 01 19:25:14 <CVirus> oh .. sorry :-D
Dec 01 19:26:02 <serious2007> guys ijust got my openmoko and I am fighting to get dfu-util on my debian to run. I got the sourcecode but my ./configure points out an error
Dec 01 19:26:24 <serious2007> ./configure: line 3331: `PKG_CHECK_MODULES(USB, libusb >= 0.1.4,,'
Dec 01 19:26:33 <serious2007> the libusb-dev is installed
Dec 01 19:26:49 <roh> is pkg-config installed?
Dec 01 19:26:52 <Christoph> strange, I've started gllin several times now but nmeaNP is always empty. Maybe I've to sleep a night over this (... with removed battery) :-) Thanx guys!
Dec 01 19:28:08 <serious2007> awsome man that worked out
Dec 01 19:28:10 <serious2007> thx
Dec 01 19:32:52 <zdanek> roh: maybe you know if media player is able to play avi files?
Dec 01 19:33:13 <zdanek> it wants some plugin and is it somewhere available?
Dec 01 19:44:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1064 has been created by robophred(AT)gmail.com
Dec 01 19:44:01 <cdbot2> * * Small combobox menus needlessly scrolling.
Dec 01 19:44:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1064
Dec 01 19:45:06 <roh> zdanek sorry.. no clue.
Dec 01 19:45:23 <roh> zdanek abraxa is the one hacking on it
Dec 01 19:46:11 <zdanek> roh: thx
Dec 01 19:47:06 <borg_> zdanek: it is able to play every file you can play on your desktop
Dec 01 19:47:15 <RoboPhred> there we go, my first patch on om
Dec 01 19:47:19 <borg_> zdanek: you probably want to install gst-ffmpeg
Dec 01 19:47:24 <borg_> dont know the exact name of the package
Dec 01 19:47:42 <zdanek> borg_: you mean on openmoko?
Dec 01 19:47:46 <borg_> zdanek: do "ipkg list | grep gst > file"
Dec 01 19:47:53 <zdanek> okay
Dec 01 19:47:55 <borg_> and then search in the file for the right package
Dec 01 19:47:56 <zdanek> I'll tryb
Dec 01 19:47:58 <zdanek> okay
Dec 01 19:49:26 <RoboPhred> Thanks for your help yesterday borg, I finished the patch and submitted it
Dec 01 19:50:05 <borg_> RoboPhred: very nice :)
Dec 01 19:50:06 <zdanek> borg_: with ffmpeg I found only gst-plugin-ffmpegcolorspace
Dec 01 19:50:23 <borg_> dont know exactly
Dec 01 19:50:25 <borg_> try it :)
Dec 01 19:50:31 <zdanek> but there's gstreamer - 0.10.14-r0 - GStreamer is a multimedia framework for encoding and decoding video and sound. It supports a wide range of formats including mp
Dec 01 19:50:53 <borg_> gstreamer ist probably installed allready
Dec 01 19:50:58 <zdanek> hmm
Dec 01 19:51:07 <borg_> but try it
Dec 01 19:51:12 <zdanek> media player requires some kind of plugin
Dec 01 19:51:14 <borg_> i dont know exactly
Dec 01 19:51:19 <zdanek> as it shouts in message box
Dec 01 19:51:27 <zdanek> I will fight with it
Dec 01 19:51:33 <borg_> i am pretty sure it uses gstreamer
Dec 01 19:51:41 <zdanek> should I use other reporitory than official?
Dec 01 19:51:43 <borg_> so you just need the right gst-plugin-* package
Dec 01 19:51:54 <borg_> there are no big difference
Dec 01 19:53:27 <zdanek> yep, but none of packages looks like "avi decoder"
Dec 01 19:54:01 <borg_> "avi" is a containerformat
Dec 01 19:54:07 <borg_> it is now codec itself
Dec 01 19:54:13 <borg_> there can be any codec in it
Dec 01 19:54:37 <borg_> s/now/no
Dec 01 19:54:44 <zdanek> maybe some of "gst-plugins-base - 0.10.14-r2 - Plugins for GStreamer
Dec 01 19:54:56 <borg_> zdanek: try it......
Dec 01 19:54:57 <zdanek> as we suppose media player is using gstreame
Dec 01 19:55:00 <zdanek> ok
Dec 01 19:55:05 <borg_> install them all and it will work
Dec 01 19:55:10 <zdanek> :)
Dec 01 19:55:12 <borg_> but look if you have enough space
Dec 01 19:55:39 <zdanek> that's what is keeping me from not installing all of them
Dec 01 19:56:07 <zdanek> with little space we should be like surgeons
Dec 01 19:56:15 <zdanek> with precise cut&install ;)
Dec 01 19:59:15 <xzcvczx> oh ffs office for mac cant print :S
Dec 01 19:59:24 <RoboPhred> hardware has  an sd card, doesnt  i?t
Dec 01 19:59:38 <RoboPhred> always has for me
Dec 01 19:59:53 <RoboPhred> ^^->xzcvczx
Dec 01 20:01:02 <xzcvczx> RoboPhred: in leopard?
Dec 01 20:01:17 <RoboPhred> not sure, it is on the common computers around campus
Dec 01 20:09:14 <zdanek> borg_: I have a progress in the case, I added celtune repository and it exploded with about 30 new plugins! I installed avi plugin and media player didn't complain any more. I can play avi file and I have a sound, but still no video
Dec 01 20:09:27 <zdanek> are we sure it can show video?
Dec 01 20:09:36 <zdanek> maybe it's able to play sound
Dec 01 20:09:38 <zdanek> only
Dec 01 20:09:45 <borg_> zdanek: it play video for me
Dec 01 20:10:02 <zdanek> so I do need more plugins
Dec 01 20:10:07 <borg_> in the small preview window
Dec 01 20:10:14 <borg_> zdanek: is there gst-ffmpeg now?
Dec 01 20:10:21 <zdanek> let's see
Dec 01 20:11:08 <zdanek> damn it, only gst-plugin-ffmpegcolorspace
Dec 01 20:11:14 <borg_> then try this ;)
Dec 01 20:11:29 <zdanek> i doesn't look like decoder 
Dec 01 20:11:35 <borg_> mh
Dec 01 20:13:43 <zdanek> nope
Dec 01 20:13:51 <zdanek> it wasn't this plugin
Dec 01 20:13:56 <borg_> :D
Dec 01 20:14:42 <borg_> zdanek: can you open this avi with mplayer somewhere?
Dec 01 20:14:51 <borg_> i think it says what codec it uses on startup
Dec 01 20:14:57 <borg_> or vlc
Dec 01 20:19:06 <Astr0> hello all
Dec 01 20:19:46 <Astr0> i just read about the project today, i have a question... can the neo be used as a proper phone right now with qtopia?
Dec 01 20:21:14 <borg_> Astr0: dont know, perhaps you should ask in #qtopia
Dec 01 20:22:25 <Astr0> will do
Dec 01 20:37:58 <zdanek> borg_: my avi is coded with divx
Dec 01 20:38:02 <zdanek> no such plugin
Dec 01 20:38:30 <borg_> zdanek: thats ffmpeg
Dec 01 20:38:33 <borg_> mh
Dec 01 20:38:51 <borg_> on debian/ubuntu you need gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg for divx
Dec 01 20:39:58 <zdanek> right
Dec 01 20:40:13 <zdanek> i need it for openmoko
Dec 01 20:45:06 <metzenas> Astr0, maybe you get some answers from there: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qtopia_on_Neo_1973
Dec 01 20:53:36 <Astr0> metzenas, so still not ready yet
Dec 01 21:03:16 <OJW> pyroute modified to display map images original-size (no rescaling)
Dec 01 21:04:33 <Vegar> OJW: have you solved the download-thread issue yet?
Dec 01 21:05:27 <OJW> (not sure cairo actually draws them any faster though - but if it was too slow before you might check now)
Dec 01 21:05:46 <OJW> Vegar: the killing of downloads-in-progress?
Dec 01 21:05:56 <Vegar> yes
Dec 01 21:06:37 <OJW> haven't looked at it.  (though calling "sys.exit()" when the main window closes does seem to help ;)
Dec 01 21:06:46 <Vegar> hehe
Dec 01 21:08:41 <OJW> eventually you'd want to download all the maps before leaving home (e.g. all tiles within 20km of your planned route) -- but how much storage space is available?
Dec 01 21:10:25 <zdanek> OJW: does pyroute works with openmoko?
Dec 01 21:10:27 <mjr> up to a few gigabytes...
Dec 01 21:10:36 <mjr> if you have a large microsd
Dec 01 21:10:57 <zdanek> is it available in ipk packages?
Dec 01 21:11:14 <zdanek> or should it be only downloaded from homepage?
Dec 01 21:11:30 <borg_> OJW: i think if you store it on the sd card (/media/card) some 100mb should'nt be a problem
Dec 01 21:11:38 <OJW> zdanek: look at recent archives of openmoko-dev mailing lists for its dependancies. the source code is only available on a SVN server, not as a package
Dec 01 21:11:42 <borg_> the standard sd card has 512 mb
Dec 01 21:12:05 <OJW> SD cards do have a habit of getting cheaper I suppose
Dec 01 21:12:12 <borg_> OJW: perhaps you can could look how much space is left, and fill it to a maximum of 50mb left?
Dec 01 21:12:19 <OJW> borg_: good idea
Dec 01 21:12:58 <borg_> i thin in something like 100mb you can put lots of tiles, can't you?
Dec 01 21:13:00 <OJW> would be good to be intelligent like that, avoid asking the user difficult questions.
Dec 01 21:13:15 <zdanek> I have 2GB card for about $23
Dec 01 21:13:21 <zdanek> sorry
Dec 01 21:13:24 <zdanek> $33
Dec 01 21:13:27 <borg_> and there will be free space of more then 100mb in most cases
Dec 01 21:13:31 <borg_> i would guess
Dec 01 21:13:54 <OJW> actually, a lot of it comes down to the filesystem you choose (i.e. how much space it wastes when storing lots of small files)
Dec 01 21:14:16 <borg_> thats right
Dec 01 21:14:43 <borg_> is it possible to .gz them and gunzip the parts that are needed on the fly?
Dec 01 21:14:54 <borg_> something like that
Dec 01 21:15:38 <OJW> well we can play with stuff like that. See if the major problems (like rendering speed) have a solution first
Dec 01 21:15:59 <borg_> of course
Dec 01 21:46:01 <zdanek> goodnight
Dec 01 21:46:14 <thierce> hi
Dec 01 21:46:58 <goodwill> hello
Dec 01 21:51:04 <hhf423> moin
Dec 01 21:51:51 <borg_> nabend
Dec 01 21:54:25 <hhf423> gps gllin driver out, excellent
Dec 01 21:54:32 <hhf423> is that eabi or oabi?
Dec 01 21:54:52 <borg_> the one, which needs a wrapper
Dec 01 21:55:06 <borg_> it is the binary that was deliverd in the very first neos
Dec 01 21:55:20 <hhf423> ah, that
Dec 01 21:55:28 <hhf423> which is crashing sometimes...
Dec 01 21:55:35 <borg_> does it?
Dec 01 21:55:41 <borg_> it works very reliable here
Dec 01 21:55:48 <borg_> i tested it in my car today
Dec 01 21:55:51 <hhf423> what I heard
Dec 01 21:55:55 <hhf423> and?
Dec 01 21:55:59 <borg_> very good
Dec 01 21:56:13 <hhf423> how did you test it?
Dec 01 21:56:27 <hhf423> does the current image include it already?
Dec 01 21:56:33 <borg_> i looked at the coordinates.. ;)
Dec 01 21:56:39 <borg_> http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/
Dec 01 21:56:44 <borg_> it will not get in the images
Dec 01 21:56:52 <borg_> because of the eula you have to accept
Dec 01 21:57:01 * mwester hasn't been able to get a GPS fix in three days of testing. :(
Dec 01 21:57:10 <neutrino> http://celpaste.morb-design.com/pastebin.php?show=m23d1c861
Dec 01 21:57:12 <neutrino> Can someone help me with this error, raise when building openmoko-devel-image!?
Dec 01 21:57:23 <hhf423> ach
Dec 01 21:57:24 <borg_> mwester: where did you try it?
Dec 01 21:57:46 <borg_> after i got a gps fix outside it worked even in the car
Dec 01 21:57:55 <mwester> Ottawa and Chicago - indoors and out.
Dec 01 21:57:58 <hhf423> anyways, the image from friday does not ask for a pin, still
Dec 01 21:58:00 <borg_> mh
Dec 01 21:58:07 <borg_> hhf423: ?
Dec 01 21:58:18 <borg_> i am getting asked for pin since 3 month or so
Dec 01 21:58:37 <hhf423> nah, I only when flashing qtopia
Dec 01 21:58:45 <borg_> strange
Dec 01 21:58:59 <borg_> mwester: how long did you wait?
Dec 01 21:59:15 <borg_> it takes something like ~8 minutes here for me
Dec 01 21:59:21 <borg_> to get a fix
Dec 01 21:59:23 <mwester> 14 hours in Ottawa, 15:24 hours here.
Dec 01 21:59:29 <borg_> but then it works imo pretty nice
Dec 01 21:59:34 <hhf423> I can see that the gpsd does get the pin request, its in the logs. but dialer does not seem to pick it up
Dec 01 22:08:26 <emdete> gpsd? pin? hm... ;)
Dec 01 22:08:44 <hhf423> yeah, well
Dec 01 22:09:32 <hhf423> all not very encouraging
Dec 01 22:12:02 <emdete> i always wonder why the openmoko people do not build their house from bottom up...
Dec 01 22:12:39 <hhf423> emdete
Dec 01 22:12:44 <hhf423> I know the answer to that
Dec 01 22:12:59 <hhf423> very easy answer
Dec 01 22:13:34 <hhf423> they are still busy inventing open source concrete to create the foundation for the house
Dec 01 22:14:11 <hhf423> and its not even funny
Dec 01 22:14:13 <emdete> hhf423: doesnt seem so - the have a roof but the basement is weak
Dec 01 22:14:26 <OJW> emdete: you wonder why programmers don't do building work?  still waiting for the punchline here
Dec 01 22:14:29 <emdete> hhf423: why is there any gtk app right now?
Dec 01 22:14:38 <mwester> a task made more difficult by their seeming insistence that none of the crowd gathered around asking to help be permitted to do so.
Dec 01 22:14:43 <hhf423> OJW because its a hardware problem...
Dec 01 22:14:48 <polz> I'm guessing it's either because none of them have enough free time to make phonecalls..
Dec 01 22:15:06 <emdete> mwester: yes, i know that one - i offered a gsm07.10 daemon... :/
Dec 01 22:15:07 <polz> or because they're actually using some other manufacturer's phones
Dec 01 22:15:40 <hhf423> emdete: I get your point. But the lead architect was busy creating a webshop and then left the project
Dec 01 22:15:56 * mwester chokes in his coffee
Dec 01 22:15:56 <hhf423> or something
Dec 01 22:16:18 <emdete> hhf423: hm, bad situation - especially if there is only one capable of doing lead-arch
Dec 01 22:16:56 <mwester> even worse when the truth is that there are many others who are capable, but they don't trust anyone in the community.
Dec 01 22:17:16 <emdete> anyway a project should start with test cases for the requirements (as simple scripts for gsm, gps, sound, display, battery, whatever) and then the hardware drivers & daemon are implemented.
Dec 01 22:17:16 <hhf423> emdete: don't know about that. laforge left before gta02 was ready. we will see how much this will impact the timeline
Dec 01 22:17:42 <emdete> laforge left? didnt know that... why?
Dec 01 22:17:52 <buz> burn out maybe?
Dec 01 22:17:53 <hhf423> emdete: the interesting thing about what you are saying is: I think everyone knows that. And still it does not happen.
Dec 01 22:18:06 <buz> or just pissed off by the obvious lack of proper management
Dec 01 22:18:20 <emdete> i would immediatly drop all activity on all gui stuff. nobody is interested in that
Dec 01 22:18:28 <polz> hhf423: maybe this whole project is just an experiment in extreme management...
Dec 01 22:18:40 <buz> or absence of management
Dec 01 22:18:51 <hhf423> polz: you mean, in extreme absence of management...
Dec 01 22:18:55 <polz> hhf423: first they tested how longe the hype could last by delaying GTA01 for almost half a year...
Dec 01 22:19:12 <hhf423> heh, yes
Dec 01 22:19:17 <emdete> polz: don't think so - there was never a hype ;)
Dec 01 22:19:20 <polz> hhf423: and now they're waiting to see if the community is actually capable of creating a software stack for free :>
Dec 01 22:19:21 <buz> or they're trying to prove the old wisdom that if you leave engineers to manage a product launch you'll never launch anything
Dec 01 22:19:41 <hhf423> buz: I bet this is it
Dec 01 22:19:58 <buz> hhf423: for all i can tell, there's noone with management skills there
Dec 01 22:20:06 <buz> (in some way, that statement is tautological)
Dec 01 22:20:15 <hhf423> buz: that would also be my assessment
Dec 01 22:20:30 <buz> if there was management skill around, things would be entirely different
Dec 01 22:20:31 <polz> buz: judging by the sound quality when making a call and the problems with quad-band, delaying the launch might have made sense
Dec 01 22:20:33 * anrp senses a distinct lack of optimism
Dec 01 22:20:56 <emdete> polz: sound quality of gta02?
Dec 01 22:20:57 <buz> anrp: optimism gradually gave way to pessimism over the past 12 months
Dec 01 22:21:02 <polz> I don't care, really, as long as I have a working computer with a GSM modem in my hands, he he he
Dec 01 22:21:06 <polz> emdete: gta01
Dec 01 22:21:24 <polz> emdete: I can hear the radio every time I make a call
Dec 01 22:21:25 <emdete> polz: hm, sound quality was fine when i tested... 
Dec 01 22:21:46 <buz> then again, people with management skills would have sacrificed the project's ideals. for better or worse.
Dec 01 22:21:52 <polz> emdete: and the people I call keep complaining about hearing themselves
Dec 01 22:21:57 <emdete> but.. overall what does that all mean? stop neo, crack a iphone?
Dec 01 22:21:58 <mmontour> polz: My GF's razr has about the same radio-buzz as my GTA01
Dec 01 22:22:01 <hhf423> buz: this is where I disagree
Dec 01 22:22:31 <hhf423> emdete: I just asked a friend to get me a iphone from the states when he comes back
Dec 01 22:22:34 <mmontour> There is (or was - I haven't checked lately) a bad echo when calling to the GTA01
Dec 01 22:22:39 <buz> hhf423: most people would have decided they want a phone now, figured if it takes a binary driver, so be it. got some momentum, then use that to get a completely open phone
Dec 01 22:22:56 <polz> buz: I'm still an optimist - if they manage to release GTA02 without bugs in the hardware and core applications....
Dec 01 22:22:58 <hhf423> buz: I believe that you can have management and not sacrifice ideals (much) :-)
Dec 01 22:23:14 <buz> hhf423: yeah, but then you need tons of money
Dec 01 22:23:16 <polz> buz: they're going to survive at least until GTA03 :)
Dec 01 22:23:24 <emdete> polz: core application where not even the driver work?
Dec 01 22:23:29 <hhf423> buz: I agree on the binary thing
Dec 01 22:23:53 <buz> a not completely open phone is a lot more useful for development than one that doesnt work
Dec 01 22:24:02 <polz> emdete: well, IMHO GTA02 won't be released to the public before march, so there still is hope
Dec 01 22:24:09 <hhf423> MARCH?
Dec 01 22:24:11 <polz> btw, that statement is based on 0 data.
Dec 01 22:24:19 <buz> polz: that's exactly why the hope is diminishing
Dec 01 22:24:25 <hhf423> ah, define "the public"
Dec 01 22:24:28 <buz> GTA02 should have been released in march 07
Dec 01 22:24:53 <polz> hhf423: ordinary people who are willing to buy a phone over the internet but expect it to actually work.
Dec 01 22:25:05 <hhf423> ah, ok, those suckers
Dec 01 22:25:21 <buz> yeah why would anyone want a phone that actually makes calls?
Dec 01 22:25:29 <polz> hhf423: the sort of people who would otherwise be deterred by a huge "developers only, might not work" sign
Dec 01 22:25:33 <hhf423> as long as I can have it earlier and it works to some extend :-)
Dec 01 22:25:59 <hhf423> in any case what there is now is not sufficient
Dec 01 22:26:04 <emdete> hhf423: that's the question, what do you require when you say 'to some extend'?
Dec 01 22:26:20 <buz> make calls
Dec 01 22:26:23 <hhf423> I need it to make and receive calls
Dec 01 22:26:24 <OJW> because you can buy one of those for £15, polz?  people are buying this thing as a handheld computer
Dec 01 22:26:31 <buz> leave it without power for 2days
Dec 01 22:26:31 <roh> same game as for gta01. we will not take money for hardware we do not see as fit for sale, which means no hw-bugs we know of
Dec 01 22:26:32 <polz> buz: the hope is diminishing because we're nearing the first anniversary of the original "free software phone" announcement..
Dec 01 22:26:33 <hhf423> and I want gps
Dec 01 22:26:43 <buz> polz: no its because the market is accelerating
Dec 01 22:26:45 <hhf423> anything else is up to negotiation
Dec 01 22:26:55 <emdete> hhf423: how - would do call over ssh be sufficient?
Dec 01 22:27:08 <buz> polz: htc is pushing out nice hardware as ever but now they are actively marketing it
Dec 01 22:27:28 <buz> and android is gearing up
Dec 01 22:27:56 <hhf423> emdete: no. I need to be able to make calls when I am in a place where I need a GSM phone, which is outside of my home
Dec 01 22:28:13 <buz> hhf423: i agree. and battery needs to last at least 48h
Dec 01 22:28:25 <polz> buz: are they also providing at least some sort of support to developers who want to boot their own software on it ?
Dec 01 22:28:31 <hhf423> yes, android will be really interesting once you can buy hw for that
Dec 01 22:28:36 <buz> support? muahahahhaa
Dec 01 22:28:45 <hhf423> buz, I can live with charging every day
Dec 01 22:28:56 <polz> buz: why would Android turn out much better than Java did ?
Dec 01 22:29:04 <hhf423> buz: my first mobile needed two battery packs to last the day :-)
Dec 01 22:29:04 <emdete> hhf423: that's not what i need. i don't think the neo must be a all-day-mobile immendiatly. if you want to get support from open source developers just give them a working platform. every idiot can do a gui on that
Dec 01 22:29:47 <buz> i occasionally take trips that take 30+h from point to point
Dec 01 22:29:47 <buz> polz: have you looked at the demo?
Dec 01 22:29:52 <polz> btw, is anyone working on the power management yet ?
Dec 01 22:30:04 <polz> buz: I have to admit I haven't
Dec 01 22:30:12 <buz> a phone that cant last at least 24h is totally worthless as phone
Dec 01 22:30:16 <buz> it may work as pda
Dec 01 22:30:20 <buz> but so does an ipaq
Dec 01 22:30:52 <polz> btw, if you put the phone into suspend - is receiving a phone supposed to wake it up yet ?
Dec 01 22:31:03 <hhf423> buz: we probably need to distinguish between stand by time and talk time. 4h talk time and/or 24h standby is my minimum
Dec 01 22:31:22 <buz> yeah i agree
Dec 01 22:31:33 <buz> i would say 48h standby is really what the phone should do
Dec 01 22:31:36 <hhf423> and then I can always have an extra battery for starters
Dec 01 22:31:38 <buz> 24h is the absolute minimum
Dec 01 22:32:09 <buz> symbian phones can have standby times of over a week
Dec 01 22:32:21 <hhf423> buz: yes, for 5 years now
Dec 01 22:32:39 <josch> buz, can you play wesnoth on symbian? :-D
Dec 01 22:32:47 <hhf423> buz: my p800 did standy for a week if it did stay in one place. and that phone is now really old
Dec 01 22:32:59 <buz> hhf423: my p900 originally did 10d
Dec 01 22:33:03 <buz> now it does about 3
Dec 01 22:33:06 <buz> with 4 year old battery
Dec 01 22:33:10 * josch can live with having extra batteries to carry around as long as my phone is open
Dec 01 22:33:29 <buz> extra battery-> one more thing
Dec 01 22:33:40 <buz> at some point i might as well get an n810 and a symbian smartphon
Dec 01 22:33:40 <buz> e
Dec 01 22:33:51 <emdete> hm, strange. i would like to have the neo as a nice dev. platform for own ideas. here all people would like the neo as a useable mobile...
Dec 01 22:33:57 <hhf423> I totally want some of the applications which are listed in the ideas section. linke location based todo and reminders and stuff
Dec 01 22:34:15 <buz> yeah but most of them are useless without decent hardware
Dec 01 22:34:52 <hhf423> is there any location based todo/whatever apps out there for any phone?
Dec 01 22:34:55 <emdete> buz: and working drivers and workings test for those.
Dec 01 22:35:08 <OJW> is n810 touchscreen?
Dec 01 22:35:17 <hhf423> 810 is touchscreen, yes
Dec 01 22:35:21 <emdete> i even would be fine if android would be ported to the neo but that won't work until the drivers work
Dec 01 22:35:45 <josch> hhf423, shouldn't be a problem to write a python calendar app that interfaces gps
Dec 01 22:36:29 <emdete> josch: if gps (and everything else) would work reliable...
Dec 01 22:36:43 <hhf423> josch: yeah, I know, one of those "can be done in half an hour problems"
Dec 01 22:37:21 <polz> emdete: in it's current state, the battery will still be dead before you finish work
Dec 01 22:37:25 <emdete> i really wonder why you all are looking at the roof while the cellar is not even visible... 
Dec 01 22:37:31 <polz> emdete: so the phone won't be able to remind you to pick up the groceries anyway
Dec 01 22:37:50 <josch> right - problably the app could be hacked together in half an hour with a bit of glade magic but emdete is right - gps has to work reliable beforehand
Dec 01 22:37:53 <emdete> polz: see, not the app is missing, the drivers below are
Dec 01 22:38:08 <hhf423> I should probably find myself a programmer in india, send him a openmoko and 100 euro a week and have him build my personal dream phone in a month or six
Dec 01 22:38:24 <josch> emdete, agreed
Dec 01 22:38:28 <emdete> josch: and everything. battery & charing, gsm, sms, mms & gprs
Dec 01 22:38:45 <emdete> perhaps we write a petition to fic? :D
Dec 01 22:39:03 <polz> hhf423: I doubt capable programers are that cheap, even in India
Dec 01 22:39:04 <borg_> emdete: thats all gsm
Dec 01 22:39:24 <emdete> borg_: yes and no
Dec 01 22:39:38 <hhf423> polz: then you just also give 100 eur a week :-)
Dec 01 22:39:50 <emdete> borg_: you have to decode sms. you have to request mms content & decode & render. and so on
Dec 01 22:40:14 <emdete> borg_: and there is more - how about audio?
Dec 01 22:40:18 <hhf423> we should implement the street performer protocol to get those features
Dec 01 22:40:30 <josch> I cannot imagine this GUI stuff being so difficult once gsmd works correctly...
Dec 01 22:41:00 <josch> emdete, the new pulseaudio is beeing prepared by mickeyl and abraxa
Dec 01 22:41:07 <emdete> josch: agree. exactly. point is: gsmd stuff is difficult. because gui looks nicer all programmers prefere to do that
Dec 01 22:41:11 <hhf423> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Performer_Protocol
Dec 01 22:42:22 <josch> hhf423, nice one ^^
Dec 01 22:42:30 <emdete> :D yes...
Dec 01 22:42:52 <hhf423> and its not a new idea, its like, 5 years old or more
Dec 01 22:43:18 <hhf423> oh, its like 8 years old
Dec 01 22:43:27 <hhf423> Bruce Schneier 1999
Dec 01 22:43:42 <josch> whooo bruce schneier ftw
Dec 01 22:43:53 <hhf423> http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue4_6/kelsey/
Dec 01 22:44:02 <polz> hhf423: hey, I've already paid 260 EUR for the phone, that's money I still haven't made back :)
Dec 01 22:44:39 <hhf423> polz: I agree to some extend. but a call phone whith lots of features is more than 260 EUR
Dec 01 22:45:16 <polz> hhf423: the other phones I've used so far were all free
Dec 01 22:45:21 <hhf423> polz: the neo1973 has the potential to deliver more value than 260 EUR to me and I would pay more if there was more.
Dec 01 22:45:48 <polz> and by free, I mean I didn't even have to sign a contract - it's just that my friends got bored with them :P
Dec 01 22:46:17 <hhf423> polz: I have friends like you :-)
Dec 01 22:46:58 <polz> hhf423: I'd rather buy a used laptop for 360 EUR than add the price of an Indian programer to that of the Neo
Dec 01 22:47:09 <polz> hhf423: thank you for supporting our kind :P
Dec 01 22:47:47 <josch> polz, how did you get your neo for 260 € ??
Dec 01 22:49:48 <polz> josch: a friend who works in the US ordered a pair and brought them over when he visited home
Dec 01 22:52:53 <polz> and yeah, reading the prices of similar phones in the window of a shop I pass every day on my way to work still puts a smile on my face :)
Dec 01 23:03:10 <NineX> hmm, new versions of u-boot does not support boot from SD? and this is a bug, or new versions wil not have this functionality?
Dec 01 23:03:22 <NineX> s/wil/will
Dec 01 23:06:08 <mmontour> !ombug 799
Dec 01 23:06:09 <cdbot2> * * Bug 799, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown
Dec 01 23:06:10 <cdbot2> * * obri(AT)chaostreff.ch: data abort while reading from SD Cards
Dec 01 23:06:11 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=799
Dec 02 00:19:50 <RoboPhred> what component would a gtk bug be under?
Dec 02 00:19:54 <RoboPhred> bug/enhancement
Dec 02 00:20:36 <josch> RoboPhred, depends on the kind of gtk bug I would say ^^
Dec 02 00:20:50 <josch> just file it - it wil be moved if other think it's not right
Dec 02 00:21:09 <RoboPhred> a widget, I submitted a fix earlier but the closest I could find was graphics design
Dec 02 00:21:31 <borg_> RoboPhred: yes, i would suggest that too
Dec 02 00:21:48 <borg_> your fix is probably some sort of graphics design fix
Dec 02 00:22:08 <RoboPhred> I would think that would be for  images though, not code side
Dec 02 00:22:35 <borg_> yes, but there is nothing else that matches at all ;)
Dec 02 00:22:43 <RoboPhred> libgtkinput, maby?
Dec 02 00:23:23 <RoboPhred> looks like they need to add a general  gtk component
Dec 02 00:23:49 <borg_> RoboPhred: 
Dec 02 00:23:49 <borg_> Theming 	buglog@lists.openmoko.org
Dec 02 00:23:49 <borg_> Gtk+ Theming in general
Dec 02 00:23:56 <borg_> whats with theming?
Dec 02 00:24:11 <RoboPhred> I dont understand the question
Dec 02 00:24:21 <borg_> :P
Dec 02 00:24:33 <borg_> theming is a component in bugzilla too
Dec 02 00:24:44 <borg_> and the description is "Gtk+ Theming in general"
Dec 02 00:24:51 <borg_> sounds not that bad for your patch
Dec 02 00:25:17 <Psi_> ive been away for a while, does the latest buildhost build have any gps functionality?
Dec 02 00:25:27 <borg_> Psi_: no
Dec 02 00:25:32 <Psi_> ok thanks
Dec 02 00:25:42 <borg_> Psi_: you can get gps functionality here:
Dec 02 00:25:44 <borg_> http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/
Dec 02 00:25:47 <borg_> have fun :)
Dec 02 00:25:55 * Psi_ looks
Dec 02 00:26:51 <rwhitby> ah, moko monotone server is up again
Dec 02 00:32:20 <NineX> trainspotting
Dec 02 00:42:02 <RoboPhred> hmm, been looking at the pictures of the older moko ui, seems better than the newer...
Dec 02 00:42:16 <borg_> RoboPhred: it isn't
Dec 02 00:42:38 <RoboPhred> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmoko-smartphone-did-they-have-a-time-machine-or-what-229243.php
Dec 02 00:42:39 <borg_> it is to small on the neo
Dec 02 00:42:44 <RoboPhred> hm
Dec 02 00:49:29 <mrcucumber> Is the moko make file working now? When I've tried in the past it's a major crap shoot if it will work or not
Dec 02 00:52:25 <RoboPhred> it worked for me, I got it 2 days ago
Dec 02 00:56:34 <RoboPhred> wonder if anyone got om working on an mda...
Dec 02 01:31:51 <rwhitby> mrcucumber: the crap shoot was OE package versions.  Those have been frozen now, so OE is much more stable.  And OM has now frozen that even further on the OM monotone server.
Dec 02 01:32:18 <rwhitby> So once you have your build environment set up (I suggest Ubuntu on a 32-bit kernel), then you should be fine.
Dec 02 01:33:13 <rwhitby> The mokomakefile itself (as opposed to the OE system it builds, and the OM recipes in that system) has be rock solid all that time.
Dec 02 01:40:55 <bobesponja> hey
Dec 02 01:41:58 <bobesponja> I see many articles about neo having multitouch but there's almost nothing about it on the wiki except for the wishlist, any idea what's up with multi-touch?
Dec 02 01:46:28 <CoreDump> neo doesn't have a mutli-touch touchscreen
Dec 02 01:47:11 <bobesponja> CoreDump: thanks, any idea if that's planed for future releases?
Dec 02 01:47:26 <CoreDump> no idea, sorry
Dec 02 02:05:07 <mrcucumber> rwhitby: yeah, it is up and running without any problems for a change
Dec 02 02:05:20 <mrcucumber> rwhitby: things have really grown up, it looks like a phone :)
Dec 02 02:05:39 <mrcucumber> rwhitby: if only GTA02 w/ 850mhz would come out now :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec 02 02:59:56 2007