**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 19 02:59:57 2007
Dec 19 03:24:58 <sagacis> I don't know who's here to give a response, but I have a u-boot question...
Dec 19 03:25:43 <sagacis> I flashed a new u-boot recently (and again tonight with the 1201 snapshot).  The device no longer boots from the power button.  It just sits there at the boot splash.  
Dec 19 03:26:01 <sagacis> If I boot from the u-boot menu, everything is OK.  Any ideas?
Dec 19 03:29:50 <balrog-kun> sagacis: there was a bug like this that was quite hard to fix and may have not been fixed yet, i'm not sure
Dec 19 03:30:03 <balrog-kun> you'll find more info in bugzilla
Dec 19 03:30:06 <balrog-kun> good night
Dec 19 03:31:03 <sagacis> Thanks!
Dec 19 06:14:51 <mbuf> "ipkg install openssh" - cannot find package on the Neo; what needs to be added and where?
Dec 19 06:29:39 <hachi> so, I really don't want to blow away my moko makefile build that I've had till now, but I just can't get it to build anymore
Dec 19 06:32:43 <SpeedEvil> hachi: error/
Dec 19 06:33:19 <hachi> it's trying to do an mtn update on openembedded, but there is no OE.mtn in that directory
Dec 19 06:33:29 <hachi> nothings creating it, something deleted it
Dec 19 06:33:35 <SpeedEvil> odd
Dec 19 06:34:37 <SpeedEvil> that's not why mine doesn't build :(
Dec 19 06:35:04 <hachi> I'm quite annoyed because it took like 3 days to build here, and now I've got to start over again
Dec 19 06:35:15 <SpeedEvil> CPU?
Dec 19 06:35:22 <hachi> dual P3 1GHz
Dec 19 06:35:38 <SpeedEvil> probably around the same speed as mine.
Dec 19 06:37:12 <rwhitby> hachi: OE.mtn should be in the top-level dir
Dec 19 06:37:17 <rwhitby> not in the openembedded dir
Dec 19 06:37:56 <hachi> well, the makefile is calling cd openembedded && mtn something on me
Dec 19 06:37:59 <hachi> or was
Dec 19 06:46:01 <mmontour> hachi: the openembedded/_MTN/options file should have the path to your OE.mtn database
Dec 19 06:48:34 <hachi> ERROR: Unable to open conf/bitbake.conf
Dec 19 06:48:45 <hachi> now I can't even build from scratch?
Dec 19 06:48:48 <hachi> ls
Dec 19 06:49:34 <CM> ~blame aging dual p3 computer
Dec 19 06:49:36 <CM> ;)
Dec 19 06:49:38 * apt_ blames aging dual p3 computer (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
Dec 19 06:49:54 <hachi> I just switched to a different computer
Dec 19 06:50:19 <CM> I agree that bitbake and monotone is a bit difficult though
Dec 19 07:03:11 <CM> ~curse epdf and mickey :P
Dec 19 07:03:13 <apt_> May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, epdf and mickey :P !
Dec 19 07:04:04 <mbuf> "ipkg install openssh" - cannot find package on the Neo; what needs to be added and where?
Dec 19 07:04:17 <CM> is it scp:ed there?
Dec 19 07:04:27 <CM> the .ipk I men
Dec 19 07:04:28 <CM> mean
Dec 19 07:04:33 <mbuf> CM, no from the Neo
Dec 19 07:04:46 <mbuf> CM, trying this, http://www.rwhitby.net/blog/nslu2-linux/replacing-dropbear-with-openssh.html
Dec 19 07:04:47 <CM> Yes, I mean is the file on your Neo?
Dec 19 07:04:57 <mbuf> CM, no, can it take it from the Internet?
Dec 19 07:05:01 <CM> Yes
Dec 19 07:05:07 <CM> Or add a feed that includes it
Dec 19 07:05:16 <CM> I guess the ångström feed do
Dec 19 07:05:24 <mbuf> CM, ping yahoo.com from the Neo works; 
Dec 19 07:05:34 <mbuf> CM, where and what feed to be added?
Dec 19 07:05:49 <CM> Hmm.. Seems like the openmoko wiki is down again
Dec 19 07:06:06 <emdete> mbuf: try /etc/ipkg
Dec 19 07:06:18 <mbuf> emdete, thanks
Dec 19 07:06:27 <CM> mbuf: Yes, add http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/feed/armv4t/ to the conf file in /etc/ipkg
Dec 19 07:06:59 <CM> call it base <long url here> or something like that, just as the other lines in the config
Dec 19 07:08:13 <emdete> mbuf: but dont choose the same name ;)
Dec 19 07:08:49 <mbuf> emdete, can you list how the entry should be in /etc/ipkg? 
Dec 19 07:08:50 <cosmin> anyone tried pppd for a network connection to an emulated neo?
Dec 19 07:08:52 <rwhitby> hachi: OE is not position independent. if the top-level path of your moko work area has changed, then you are stuffed.
Dec 19 07:09:10 <CM> cosmin: Yes, tuukkah wrote about it in the iki I think
Dec 19 07:09:11 <CM> wiki
Dec 19 07:09:43 <CM> But the wiki seems to be a bit messed up right now, just look at the mainpage..
Dec 19 07:09:49 <emdete> mbuf: src/gz newname http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/feed/armv4t/
Dec 19 07:09:57 <mbuf> emdete, thanks
Dec 19 07:10:01 <cosmin> CM, I read the wiki article, and I followed the instructions, but there's something that doesn't work
Dec 19 07:10:16 <CM> tuukkah: You here to help him out? :)
Dec 19 07:10:50 <emdete> cosmin: i wrote a bit of that wiki.. what's with it?
Dec 19 07:11:28 <cosmin> emdete, i tried a network connetcion with pppd, and I get some "Received bad configure-rej" messages
Dec 19 07:12:01 <cosmin> i can ping the emulated neo, but i can't ssh into it
Dec 19 07:12:48 <emdete> cosmin: oh, i did not read your sentence fully... sry. i thought gprs.
Dec 19 07:12:48 <techindian> Hi all, i am getting the following error with OM gcc..
Dec 19 07:12:50 <techindian> | /tmp/ccX7NbU0.s: Assembler messages:
Dec 19 07:12:50 <techindian> | /tmp/ccX7NbU0.s:341: Error: selected processor does not support `clz lr,r0'
Dec 19 07:12:50 <techindian> | /tmp/ccX7NbU0.s:510: rdhi, rdlo and rm must all be different
Dec 19 07:12:55 <techindian> any reasons?
Dec 19 07:13:35 <emdete> look at your options. maybe some compression or the like are disabled on one end. does it tell /which/ cfg was rejected?
Dec 19 07:14:46 <SpeedEvil> techindian: where did you get your incliude files dfrom?
Dec 19 07:15:02 <techindian> fresh build.. 
Dec 19 07:15:09 <techindian> I built it myself..
Dec 19 07:15:14 <SpeedEvil> you can't build include files
Dec 19 07:15:26 <techindian> which include files..
Dec 19 07:15:29 <SpeedEvil> where did you get the linux include files from?
Dec 19 07:15:56 <SpeedEvil> if you copied them from a desktop system, you can get messages similar to that
Dec 19 07:16:02 <techindian> build with the latest version of moko 
Dec 19 07:16:13 <techindian> using MokoMakefile..
Dec 19 07:16:15 <SpeedEvil> k
Dec 19 07:16:28 <SpeedEvil> is this deep into the build?
Dec 19 07:16:40 <techindian> problem is not with  kernel..
Dec 19 07:16:55 <techindian> when I try to compile clutter present in OE
Dec 19 07:17:08 <SpeedEvil> "/
Dec 19 07:17:25 <mbuf> emdete, in /etc/ipkg/ipkg.conf, i have added "src/gz openssh_support http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/feed/armv4t/" ; i should do "ipkg update"?
Dec 19 07:18:33 <SpeedEvil> mbuf: I did 
Dec 19 07:18:38 <SpeedEvil> sorked for me.
Dec 19 07:18:42 <mbuf> SpeedEvil, ok
Dec 19 07:19:46 <cosmin> emdete, do you know how to make sure compression is enabled on both ends? i only passed the options mentioned in the wiki
Dec 19 07:19:53 <emdete> mbuf: shure
Dec 19 07:20:10 <SpeedEvil> compression on what?
Dec 19 07:20:18 <SpeedEvil> it's not supported on GPRS
Dec 19 07:20:32 <SpeedEvil> And there is nothing you can do about that unfortunately.
Dec 19 07:20:33 <emdete> cosmin: problem may be that pppd grabs options from files like /etc/ppp/option.<devicename> or something
Dec 19 07:20:49 <SpeedEvil> Well - compressing tunnels of course
Dec 19 07:20:50 <emdete> SpeedEvil: he means on pppd proably...
Dec 19 07:21:22 <SpeedEvil> yes - howver, no (?) service providers let you setup compression.
Dec 19 07:24:40 <emdete> yes. i know. and in the beginning they had a lot of problems if a pppd asks for it :)
Dec 19 07:30:27 <techindian> SpeedEvil: clutter has used the arm 5 assembler instructions and hence the error.
Dec 19 07:30:34 <SpeedEvil> I see
Dec 19 07:30:44 <techindian> SpeedEvil: thanks.
Dec 19 07:34:27 <mbuf> ipkg_download: ERRROR: Command failed with return value 1: `wget --passive-ftp -q -P /tmp/ipkg-GrPBHg http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/ipk/neo1973/Packages.gz' 
Dec 19 07:34:32 <mbuf> when doing "ipkg update"
Dec 19 07:37:09 <SpeedEvil> Can I nuke ~/.ccache ?
Dec 19 07:37:12 <mbuf> anyways, installing openssh
Dec 19 07:37:31 <SpeedEvil> I wasn't expecting it to use significant amounts of space on home
Dec 19 07:43:31 <hachi> whoooops! I've been building openmoko on my PVR for the last 20 minutes now
Dec 19 07:43:41 <SpeedEvil> :)
Dec 19 07:43:44 * hachi switches to the right machine
Dec 19 07:44:10 <SpeedEvil> I accidentally started a build on my neo
Dec 19 07:44:17 <SpeedEvil> that diddn't get far
Dec 19 08:26:11 <Hopscotch> good morning
Dec 19 08:26:19 <NineX> ave
Dec 19 09:14:57 <tuukkah> cosmin, you still there?
Dec 19 09:15:21 <cosmin> tuukkah, yes
Dec 19 09:15:58 <tuukkah> if you can ping but not ssh, sounds like the connection is bad
Dec 19 09:16:41 <cosmin> there are some "Received bad configure-rej:  12 06 00 00 00 00" messages in the console
Dec 19 09:17:16 <tuukkah> are these before the lines that say you got a local and remote ip address?
Dec 19 09:18:06 <cosmin> one before, and many after
Dec 19 09:18:46 <cosmin> oops, i just noticed, right before printing the ip addresses, it says "Cannot determine ethernet address for proxy ARP"
Dec 19 09:19:01 <tuukkah> that's not important, i think
Dec 19 09:19:23 <tuukkah> did you give two -serial options to qemu?
Dec 19 09:19:53 <cosmin> yes, vc and pty
Dec 19 09:21:02 <tuukkah> could it be that you have some gps software interfering, as in the real neo, ttySAC1 is for the gps
Dec 19 09:21:10 <cosmin> here's the output (until i killed it) http://pastebin.com/m3ff804e8
Dec 19 09:23:07 <cosmin> i don't have any gps software
Dec 19 09:24:39 <tuukkah> pppd versions might be good to know. maybe "bad configure-rej" means they don't speak the same ppp protocol version
Dec 19 09:31:35 <tuukkah> cosmin, perhaps you just need to add "nomppe" to the pppd command line
Dec 19 09:33:29 <cosmin> tuukkah, i have pppd 2.4.4 on the host and 2.4.3 on qemu-neo
Dec 19 09:34:12 <cosmin> should i add nomppe to both the host and the neo?
Dec 19 09:34:23 <CIA-14> openmoko: 03erin_yueh * r3684 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (5 files in 4 dirs): gsmd: set and get Voicemail number (Erin Yueh)
Dec 19 09:36:13 <tuukkah> cosmin, host should be enough
Dec 19 09:38:37 <cosmin> tuukkah, it worked
Dec 19 09:38:49 <cosmin> thank you! :-)
Dec 19 09:39:05 <tuukkah> good to hear, no problem :-)
Dec 19 09:43:17 * CM likes all the supportive and helpful people in #openmoko :)
Dec 19 09:44:01 * cosmin too
Dec 19 09:44:33 <tuukkah> me too
Dec 19 09:45:47 <emdete> and me, and mee :D
Dec 19 09:46:02 <cosmin> was this because my kernel could have been configured to use MPPE, and neo doesn't support it?
Dec 19 09:48:59 <tuukkah> cosmin, you can grep mppe -r /etc/ppp
Dec 19 09:51:44 <tuukkah> for me, that shows lines from a pptp vpn configuration file
Dec 19 09:51:55 <tuukkah> but nothing else
Dec 19 09:52:57 <cosmin> mine doesn't show anything
Dec 19 09:53:22 <cosmin> just an error about not finding /etc/ppp/resolv.conf
Dec 19 09:53:34 <cosmin> i guess there's a broken link
Dec 19 09:56:46 <tuukkah> then i have no idea where it picks the idea of insisting on using mppe :-(
Dec 19 10:03:14 <CIA-14> openmoko: 03laforge * r3686 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/s3c_mci.patch: s3c_mci: major codingstyle cleanup (based on checkpatch.pl)
Dec 19 10:09:18 <CIA-14> openmoko: 03laforge * r3687 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/s3c_mci.patch: documentation update on driver status
Dec 19 10:15:39 <hachi> my gosh... monotone is so slow over nfs
Dec 19 10:18:10 <florian> hachi: monotone is always slow
Dec 19 10:18:47 <hachi> it just kinda sucks to need to have a raid-backed SMP machine to build openmoko :\
Dec 19 10:20:39 <CM> hachi: It's only the first build that's tough
Dec 19 10:20:56 <CM> I've been building it at home since june or so
Dec 19 10:21:07 <hachi> no, because monotone is always slow
Dec 19 10:21:22 <hachi> I let it run for like 15 minutes and it still didn't finish doing the 'heads' command or whatever
Dec 19 10:21:30 <CM> Heh, yeah, monotone is awfully slow
Dec 19 10:21:49 <CM> 15 minutes sounds long though, maybe 1 or 2 is normal
Dec 19 10:23:26 <CM> sameo: Just curious, and news on the wireless driver? Working ok? :)
Dec 19 10:23:34 <CM> s/and/any/
Dec 19 10:23:35 <apt_> CM meant: sameo: Just curious, any news on the wireless driver? Working ok? :)
Dec 19 10:23:51 <hachi> cute bot
Dec 19 10:23:53 <sameo> CM: it is working, yes.
Dec 19 10:24:11 <CM> apt_: botsnack
Dec 19 10:24:16 <sameo> CM: I'm currently working on getting rid of Atheros SDIO stack and use the mainline kernel one..
Dec 19 10:24:28 <CM> Ah, ok. Cool
Dec 19 10:24:42 <CM> Just hope the gta02 hw is ready soon..
Dec 19 10:25:20 <sameo> CM: let's hope so, yes.
Dec 19 10:25:56 <CM> the engineers in .tw was happy with the latest version at least, but I guess they haven't had any time to test yet
Dec 19 10:26:04 <hachi> does the rss reader work for anyone?
Dec 19 10:26:22 <hachi> I gave it a shot today, but it didn't seem to do anything... didn't see any dns requests or traffic from it
Dec 19 10:39:00 <hachi> hah, 4-way machine, load avg pegged up to 11... that's building openmoko at a pretty good clip now
Dec 19 10:47:47 <hachi> NOTE: fetch http://downloads.openmoko.org/sources/perl-5.8.8.tar.gz
Dec 19 10:48:04 <hachi> I'm getting a transfer rate of about.... 0.0 trying to download that
Dec 19 10:48:13 <josch> oh noes!! no perl for you!!
Dec 19 10:48:32 <hachi> perl 5.10 was released this morning too
Dec 19 10:49:01 <josch> j0 but not much changed
Dec 19 10:49:56 <zilux> bitbake -c clean dotconf; bitbake dotconf 
Dec 19 10:50:03 <zilux> sorry
Dec 19 11:00:03 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03chris * r3688 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/libmokoui2/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
Dec 19 11:00:03 <CIA-15> openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-scroll.c: (moko_finger_scroll_refresh),
Dec 19 11:00:03 <CIA-15> openmoko: (moko_finger_scroll_dispose):
Dec 19 11:00:03 <CIA-15> openmoko: Change scrollbar calculation code, as shown in bug #1073 (thanks to
Dec 19 11:00:05 <CIA-15> openmoko: Renato Filho), make sure to remove *all* source functions on dispose
Dec 19 11:28:25 <torpor> anyone know how gprs works right now?  i'm giving it another whirl .. 
Dec 19 12:26:54 <_diego__> hachi, rss feeader worked for me the last time i tried it (about 2 weeks ago)
Dec 19 12:29:24 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03chris * r3689 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
Dec 19 12:29:24 <CIA-15> openmoko: * configure.ac:
Dec 19 12:29:24 <CIA-15> openmoko: Add AC_GNU_SOURCE for basename(), add libnotify
Dec 19 12:29:24 <CIA-15> openmoko: * src/phone-kit/Makefile.am:
Dec 19 12:29:24 <CIA-15> openmoko: Add libnotify
Dec 19 12:29:26 <CIA-15> openmoko: * src/phone-kit/dialer-main.c: (main):
Dec 19 12:29:28 <CIA-15> openmoko: Initialise libnotify
Dec 19 12:52:51 <NineX> damn epdf compilation fails
Dec 19 12:53:34 <CM> NineX: It has for over a week
Dec 19 12:53:48 <CM> See bug 3467 in openembedded bugzilla
Dec 19 12:53:51 <NineX> CM: any workaround ?
Dec 19 12:53:58 <CM> Not that I've found yet
Dec 19 12:54:11 <CM> It's the dependency on poppler that isn't correct
Dec 19 12:56:35 <cjb_ie> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6280428662.html   Major Chinese handset vendor adopts Linux for 3G phones  (qtopia)
Dec 19 12:56:39 <SpeedEvil> Is there a generic solution to 'package x doesn't build' - if you don't want the package?
Dec 19 12:57:23 <CM> cjb_ie: Yeah, nice isn't it? :)
Dec 19 12:57:46 <xcasex> CM: in the console right now, which handset vendor?
Dec 19 12:58:04 <CM> xcasex: Some big chinsese one
Dec 19 12:58:22 <CM> Zhongxing Telecommunication Equipment
Dec 19 12:58:49 <CM> Never heard of, but: In 2006, it boasted nearly 40,000 employees, and annual revenues of about $3.12 billion
Dec 19 12:58:53 <xcasex> CM: aha. zte. they were in computer sweden today, big contender to ericsson on our soil ;)
Dec 19 12:58:59 <CM> Aha.. heh
Dec 19 12:59:22 <xcasex> apparently their vdsl tech is lightyears ahead of anything ericsson has.
Dec 19 13:00:58 <Stephmw> Aye, ZTE is a familiar name
Dec 19 13:02:22 <SpeedEvil> Does qtopia do fully locked down phones?
Dec 19 13:02:26 <SpeedEvil> s/do/allow/
Dec 19 13:02:26 <apt_> SpeedEvil meant: Does qtopia allow fully locked down phones?
Dec 19 13:02:30 <CM> SpeedEvil: Yes
Dec 19 13:02:51 <emdete> SpeedEvil: what's an 'fully locked down phones'?
Dec 19 13:03:25 <SpeedEvil> A phone in which you can install no software without the permission of the network operator
Dec 19 13:03:28 <CM> Congratulated ljp on the deal earlier, and he said it would probably be quite locked down
Dec 19 13:03:53 <SpeedEvil> or basically do nothing without the permission of the operator. Including not being able to change wallpaper without charging a fee, for example.
Dec 19 13:03:55 <emdete> SpeedEvil: like the motorola?
Dec 19 13:04:04 <SpeedEvil> like most phones at the moment.
Dec 19 13:04:51 <SpeedEvil> Then there are semi-open phones, where you can install software written in java or somethign.
Dec 19 13:05:05 <SpeedEvil> but not do certain things perhaps.
Dec 19 13:05:44 <emdete> yes, there are lots of steps of openess... even between neo and the greenphone is a big step 
Dec 19 13:05:56 <emdete> ...or qtopia / openmoko
Dec 19 13:05:58 <CM> 09:02 <CM> And of course it should mean more phones that boot a linux kernel.. ;)
Dec 19 13:06:01 <CM> 09:02 <ljp> true. but they probably wont be easily flashable/hackable
Dec 19 13:06:03 <CM> 09:03 <CM> No, probably not. But still
Dec 19 13:06:06 <CM> 09:03 <ljp> one step at a time
Dec 19 13:06:11 <SpeedEvil> then you've got fully open - all the hardware is fully documented - even including the cell-phone radio
Dec 19 13:06:31 <SpeedEvil> which is unlikely to be available in many countries.
Dec 19 13:06:44 <hrw> SpeedEvil: phone which can install software written in java is not open
Dec 19 13:06:52 <SpeedEvil> hrw: debatably.
Dec 19 13:07:13 <hrw> SpeedEvil: my k750i allows to install j2me stuff but I would not call it open
Dec 19 13:07:14 <SpeedEvil> hrw: if it can install software of arbitrary functionality, I'm happy to call it pretty open.
Dec 19 13:07:48 <SpeedEvil> If the java can use the camera, make calls, overlay parts of the UI,  and it's all documented as to how, 
Dec 19 13:08:07 <hrw> SpeedEvil: if I cant change firmware which I got with phone (using normal tools not binary editor) then it is not open
Dec 19 13:08:31 <teprrr> it depends how you define open :P
Dec 19 13:08:41 <SpeedEvil> In many countries it's not legal to sell a phone that's that open.
Dec 19 13:08:43 <teprrr> s/depends/depends on/
Dec 19 13:08:43 <apt_> teprrr meant: it depends on how you define open :P
Dec 19 13:08:59 <SpeedEvil> At least in the UK - it's legal to sell until the first person abuses it.
Dec 19 13:09:01 <teprrr> SpeedEvil, in which countries thats illegal?
Dec 19 13:09:23 <SpeedEvil> At which point you have to fix it, or you come under the 'cellphone hacking tools' legislation.
Dec 19 13:09:25 <teprrr> afaik it's not illegal as far as you cannot directly touch the gsm chip
Dec 19 13:09:28 <teprrr> nor gps chip
Dec 19 13:09:44 <teprrr> ah, :P
Dec 19 13:09:56 <SpeedEvil> Indeed - but that's less than 'fully open' by hrw's definition.
Dec 19 13:10:44 <SpeedEvil> It's a useful and would be a nice goal in many ways, but it causes problems for things with radios.
Dec 19 13:10:46 <xcasex> SpeedEvil: i'm on the "let's do this slow so people get used to it" movement of hw freedom.
Dec 19 13:11:25 <xcasex> doing it all out diretly will only attract the "omg terrar" populists
Dec 19 13:11:31 <xcasex> *directly
Dec 19 13:12:11 <SpeedEvil> There are unfortuantely good reasons why it can't really be possible for devices which have to cooperate.
Dec 19 13:12:23 <SpeedEvil> There is only one radio spectrum.
Dec 19 13:12:25 <SpeedEvil> It's shared.
Dec 19 13:12:37 <SpeedEvil> You achieve personal benefit by using more than your share.
Dec 19 13:13:08 <SpeedEvil> Cellphones currently only work well as the towers organise them so as they don't interfere with each other.
Dec 19 13:14:11 <buz> it's called tragedy of the commons, generally
Dec 19 13:14:18 <SpeedEvil> Consider a yeah
Dec 19 13:14:32 <SpeedEvil> s/Consider a y/Y/
Dec 19 13:14:34 <apt_> SpeedEvil meant: Yeah
Dec 19 13:30:45 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03laforge * r3690 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410-nand.patch: cosmetic cleanup
Dec 19 13:32:13 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03laforge * r3691 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410-nand.patch: remove unused cmdfunc
Dec 19 13:39:18 <CM> Ah, updates to u-boot is always nice. Hope it's buildable in om soon too..
Dec 19 13:41:19 <XorA|gone> crap reminds me, must merge LaF0rge patch for uboot
Dec 19 13:41:33 <CM> :)
Dec 19 13:44:23 <XorA|gone> hmm, except the patch bears no resemblence to the oe repo, time for mtn annotate
Dec 19 14:00:08 <zash> is there any way to make a laptop with wifi pretend its a accesspoint?
Dec 19 14:00:37 <jeddy3> zash, yes
Dec 19 14:00:40 <mjr> depends on the chip and the driver (no, don't know lists)
Dec 19 14:00:58 <jeddy3> zash, yes what mjr said also
Dec 19 14:01:28 <zash> more on topic: share grps-connection from the neo?
Dec 19 14:02:03 <jeddy3> zash, it also requires a fair bit of configuring...there is a firewall called firestarter that can do it for you
Dec 19 14:03:13 * jeddy3 is looking forward for NetworkManager 0.7 which should be able to make this dead easy
Dec 19 14:04:22 <zecke> Gismo_C_: hey, do you happen to be online?
Dec 19 14:05:44 <CM> zecke: mickey_away said before that bugzilla or mail was probably an easier way to get his attention.
Dec 19 14:05:53 <CM> All at the same time is probably best.. ;)
Dec 19 14:06:08 <zecke> CM: I know :)
Dec 19 14:06:16 <zecke> CM: but I'm lazy
Dec 19 14:06:33 <CM> Hehe, it's soon christmas so everyone is lazy here..
Dec 19 14:07:09 <CM> zecke: Btw, was someone here earlier wondering about the feed-reader, couldn't get it to work.
Dec 19 14:07:16 <CM> Not sure if any bug was filed..
Dec 19 14:07:37 <zecke> CM: I didn't get any report
Dec 19 14:08:27 <CM> Ok
Dec 19 14:08:33 * CM pokes hachi 
Dec 19 14:16:06 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03laforge * r3692 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files): separate NAND controller and boot-from-nand patches, merge 'led' patch into boot-from-nand patch.
Dec 19 14:17:04 <raster> mooo
Dec 19 14:17:10 * raster moos at everyone
Dec 19 14:17:39 <CM> ~emulate cow
Dec 19 14:17:46 <CM> apt_: You suck
Dec 19 14:18:49 <zash> apt_: rape itself
Dec 19 14:18:58 <zash> ~rape itself
Dec 19 14:18:59 * apt_ takes itself behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams
Dec 19 14:19:37 <raster> hehehe
Dec 19 14:23:56 <CM> ~tank zash 
Dec 19 14:24:00 <CM> bah..
Dec 19 14:24:04 * CM is tired
Dec 19 14:24:14 <CM> ~thank zash 
Dec 19 14:24:15 <apt_> de rien, CM
Dec 19 14:24:28 <CM> de rien?
Dec 19 14:24:52 <gi-el> CM: that's french
Dec 19 14:25:02 <gi-el> more or less meaning "you're welcome"
Dec 19 14:25:10 <merire> De rien = You're welcome.
Dec 19 14:25:13 <gi-el> actually more like "no problem"
Dec 19 14:25:15 <CM> Ah, ok. Thanks :)
Dec 19 14:25:15 <merire> (Yeah, I'm french.)
Dec 19 14:25:16 <gi-el> "it was nothing"
Dec 19 14:25:31 <gi-el> merire: i'm not :)
Dec 19 14:25:56 <gi-el> in spanish it's "de nada"
Dec 19 14:25:56 * CM prefer french wine and cheese over the language.. ;)
Dec 19 14:26:04 <merire> Everyone can't be perfect :p
Dec 19 14:26:11 <CM> merire: lol
Dec 19 14:26:12 <merire> (jk)
Dec 19 14:26:49 <merire> CM, if you give me a neo1973 I can send you some wine !
Dec 19 14:27:08 <CM> Hehe, I do have a Neo here, working nicely :)
Dec 19 14:27:26 <merire> blah, I'm sooo jealous
Dec 19 14:27:40 <merire> can't wait for march !
Dec 19 14:27:41 <gi-el> botox?
Dec 19 14:28:22 <CM> bento is some cheap noodle lunch in the philippines :)
Dec 19 15:13:04 * CM notices some activity in oebug 3467 :)
Dec 19 15:13:21 <SpeedEvil> ?
Dec 19 15:13:32 <CM> the epdf poppler thing
Dec 19 15:14:22 <CM> breaks the feed for openmoko
Dec 19 15:15:11 <SpeedEvil> ah
Dec 19 15:15:34 * SpeedEvil still hasn't worked out how to get past the kernel missing uboot-mkimage
Dec 19 15:15:41 <CM> :-/
Dec 19 15:15:53 <SpeedEvil> Though I've been trying other stuff.
Dec 19 15:19:30 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  build the uboot-mkimage, and restart the build of the openmoko image.
Dec 19 15:29:54 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03chris * r3693 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/phone-kit/moko-sms.c): 
Dec 19 15:29:54 <CIA-15> openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-sms.c: (moko_sms_dispose),
Dec 19 15:29:54 <CIA-15> openmoko: (stop_notify_timeout), (update_notification), (moko_sms_init):
Dec 19 15:29:54 <CIA-15> openmoko: Add tone/vibration notification
Dec 19 15:45:48 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03chris * r3694 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/ (ChangeLog src/phone-kit/moko-sms.c): 
Dec 19 15:45:48 <CIA-15> openmoko: * src/phone-kit/moko-sms.c: (note_added_cb), (note_modified_cb):
Dec 19 15:45:48 <CIA-15> openmoko: Don't notify on sent messages
Dec 19 15:54:26 <pwncity> moko isn't working very nice: http://kortlink.dk/4mdt
Dec 19 15:59:22 <peepsalot> compiz-fusion
Dec 19 15:59:38 <peepsalot> bleh, misfire
Dec 19 16:14:40 <PBeck> hi
Dec 19 16:23:57 <emdete> hi 
Dec 19 17:12:01 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03chris * r3695 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-today2/ (ChangeLog src/today-pim-journal.c): 
Dec 19 17:12:01 <CIA-15> openmoko: * src/today-pim-journal.c: (today_pim_journal_box_new):
Dec 19 17:12:01 <CIA-15> openmoko: Attach the messages app launcher to the correct box
Dec 19 17:23:42 <bkruse> cia died :[
Dec 19 18:21:05 <CIA-15> openmoko: 03laforge * r3696 10/branches/src/target/kernel/2.6.24.x/patches/lis302dl.patch: move kconfig and makefile hunks to correct location
Dec 19 18:38:42 <kamathln> hi.. i want to install openmoko on my a780 or try it out on qemu
Dec 19 18:38:54 <kamathln> which is the most straight forward way ?
Dec 19 18:39:21 <kamathln> i tried browsing through openmoko.org and wiki.openmoko.org but found the website confusing 
Dec 19 18:39:46 <kamathln> well at least for me , i could not find what i want so easily
Dec 19 18:39:57 <kamathln> or was i dumb and missed outsomething ?
Dec 19 18:43:05 <kinneh> google -> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU
Dec 19 18:46:55 <kamathln> doh
Dec 19 18:46:56 <kamathln> sorry
Dec 19 18:47:07 <kamathln> got the right keywords to use in find
Dec 19 18:47:14 <kamathln> "prebuilt" 
Dec 19 18:47:21 <kamathln> got me to what i want
Dec 19 18:47:47 <kamathln> kinneh ..
Dec 19 18:47:47 <kamathln> thx
Dec 19 18:54:28 <kamathln> i m a newbie in kernel module development. but i want to write  a usb keyboard/mouse emulation for openmoko (my openmoko pwered device should act as a keyboard when plugged into my pc)  i knwo it is possible .. but can anybody please point me where to start ?
Dec 19 19:04:25 <pH5> kamathln: you'd need to code a HID usb gadget driver that can be fed with events via uinput. no idea if something like this already exists.
Dec 19 19:08:35 <kinneh> kamathln: np
Dec 19 19:18:35 <kamathln> pH5: u mean /dev/uinput ?
Dec 19 19:18:51 <kamathln> thats what i get when i write a usb gadget driver ?
Dec 19 19:19:01 <kamathln> how do i change the usb profile ?
Dec 19 19:19:21 <balrog-kun> kamathln: check the gadget zero driver in the sources, it's an example for writing gadget drivers
Dec 19 19:19:26 <balrog-kun> g_zero
Dec 19 19:19:29 <kamathln> k
Dec 19 19:21:34 <kamathln> cool
Dec 19 19:21:43 <kamathln> thx balrog_kun
Dec 19 19:21:50 <kamathln> that was a nice head start 
Dec 19 19:22:36 <kamathln> btw , how did u like my idea ?
Dec 19 19:22:47 <kamathln> does anybody feel it is usefull ?
Dec 19 19:23:12 <balrog-kun> kamathln: btw., someone on the usb-devel ML had the same idea once if i remember well, you might want to check the archives and contact them
Dec 19 19:23:19 <balrog-kun> afaik they didn't release any code
Dec 19 19:23:26 <kamathln> kk
Dec 19 19:23:34 <kamathln> thx 4 notice will check
Dec 19 19:23:35 <balrog-kun> kamathln: btw. qemu has code for USB mouse/tablet/keyboard emulation
Dec 19 19:23:59 <kamathln> oh!
Dec 19 19:24:12 <kamathln> i guess that is something i need 
Dec 19 19:24:16 <kamathln> thk u very much
Dec 19 19:24:49 <balrog-kun> it obviously won't work as a kernel driver directly but with some adaptation or a simple compatibilty layer it might work quite well
Dec 19 19:26:00 <kamathln> balrog-kun: which one ?
Dec 19 19:26:10 <kamathln> the usb code in qemu ?
Dec 19 19:26:26 <balrog-kun> kamathln: yeah
Dec 19 19:26:52 <balrog-kun> see hw/usb-hid.c
Dec 19 19:27:18 <kamathln> balrog-kun: thats the host side right ? sure will have a look
Dec 19 19:27:51 <balrog-kun> nope, it's the emulation of a slave HID
Dec 19 19:28:38 <kamathln> oh!
Dec 19 19:28:59 <kamathln> balrog-kun: thx for pointing that out.. i must be carefull not to assume too much
Dec 19 19:29:19 <balrog-kun> there's also hw/usb-wacom.c, a virtual wacom tablet
Dec 19 19:29:40 <kamathln> cool!
Dec 19 19:42:34 <anf> Can i ask you something : Shall i get my neo1973 gta01 upgraded with wifi like that of gta02 ?
Dec 19 19:43:03 <cjb_ie> how do you mean upgraded?
Dec 19 19:43:27 <anf> Can i get the the hardware upgraded ..
Dec 19 19:43:39 <anf> like an additional chip or something ..
Dec 19 19:43:53 <CM> No
Dec 19 19:44:11 <new_bie> I don't think so its possible CPU ore of gta02 is s3c2442 
Dec 19 19:44:24 <CM> Not unless you do some pretty complicated soldering and such
Dec 19 19:44:34 <cjb_ie> CM: and even then there's nowhere to solder to...
Dec 19 19:44:47 <CM> cjb_ie: I think someone here said there was a way
Dec 19 19:45:00 <anf> ok .then how could I connect WiFi or Camera to my phone ..
Dec 19 19:45:03 <CM> To use some internal pads or something
Dec 19 19:45:14 <cjb_ie> CM: someone was talking about taking a usb wifi dongle apart and fitting it into spare space behind the battery
Dec 19 19:45:25 <CM> anf: With a battery powered usb hup you can do that
Dec 19 19:45:39 <CM> The Neo can be an usb host, but it's unpowered
Dec 19 19:46:05 <CM> cjb_ie: Yeah. Not worth the trouble in my opinion.. ;)
Dec 19 19:46:16 <cjb_ie> some people will go to a lot of trouble for stuff
Dec 19 19:46:32 <anf> Ca Neo be master ..while connected to usb ..
Dec 19 19:46:35 <CM> Heh, yeah, I'm trying to compile open moko every day.. ;)
Dec 19 19:46:40 <anf> Or is it juzt a slave
Dec 19 19:46:51 <CM> anf: It can be either
Dec 19 19:47:00 <anf> oh k
Dec 19 19:47:27 <anf> Ah about compiling ..I haven't tried yet ..
Dec 19 19:47:42 <anf> How much time do you take for doing that ..
Dec 19 19:48:00 <CM> anf: The first time is a pain
Dec 19 19:48:09 <CM> Since it builds the full cross compile toolchain
Dec 19 19:48:20 <CM> Took around 10-11 hours on my comp
Dec 19 19:48:44 <CM> But after that it usually just takes a few minutes to update everything each day
Dec 19 19:49:04 <anf> I had trouble in downloading the whole source from buildhost ..
Dec 19 19:49:12 <anf> Is there a specific list ..
Dec 19 19:49:23 <CM> what do you mean list?
Dec 19 19:49:35 <anf> After all mine is a dialup connection..
Dec 19 19:49:40 <CM> Ouch..
Dec 19 19:49:46 <anf> I mean source files and packages ..
Dec 19 19:49:52 <CM> Then I would probably not build so much
Dec 19 19:50:26 <CM> If you mean sources for the bitbake recipies, they're fetched from all around
Dec 19 19:50:50 <anf> o k 
Dec 19 19:51:36 * CM goes back to cleaing the apartment
Dec 19 19:52:01 <anf> Do anybody have idea ..wat the next summer of code will do for openmoko ..
Dec 19 19:52:12 <new_bie> Error in compiling u-boot http://pastebin.ca/581043
Dec 19 19:52:20 <anf> What all projects could catch attention and all ..
Dec 19 19:52:23 <bkruse> CM: I will come over and help
Dec 19 19:53:39 <anf> Do anybody have idea ..wat the next summer of code will do for openmoko ..
Dec 19 19:53:41 <anf> What all projects could catch attention and all ..
Dec 19 19:55:47 <new_bie> Error in compiling u-boot http://pastebin.ca/581043 has anybody seen this error b4 ?
Dec 19 19:57:32 <CM> bkruse: Hehe, I wish! :P
Dec 19 20:00:01 <bkruse> I am thinking of, after I am done with mokoiax, implementing iax into gaim (well, pidgin)
Dec 19 20:01:24 <balrog-kun> new_bie: yes, there was some discussion about this earlier
Dec 19 20:01:40 <balrog-kun> new_bie: there's a patch for it in OE i think, but the patch is a hack
Dec 19 20:04:26 <new_bie> thax balrog-kun
Dec 19 20:04:36 <new_bie> i will search it
Dec 19 20:07:40 <balrog-kun> new_bie: the filename was uboot-eabi-fix-HACK.patch btw.
Dec 19 20:10:14 <ahven> somekind of network activity signal would be cool
Dec 19 20:10:21 <ahven> for bluetooth/gprs/wifi
Dec 19 20:10:41 <ahven> currently I have to look at the intencity of the bluetooth dongle :)
Dec 19 20:56:02 <flexd_> YARR
Dec 19 21:08:07 <zash> ahven: get one of those things that flash on gsm-activity
Dec 19 21:08:38 <ahven> zash: was more thinking of software solution
Dec 19 21:09:16 <ahven> like something starts to move, when the page in the internet browser is (re)loading etc
Dec 19 21:09:26 <ahven> was the click successful or not :)
Dec 19 21:11:28 <balrog-kun> you clicked, you may need to reboot for this to take effect
Dec 19 21:44:52 <TimRiker> has anyone tried getting android running on the neo? would be fun to play with the webkit browser at least. (I know that might be heresy, but asking anyway)
Dec 19 21:45:40 <balrog-kun> yes, someone has
Dec 19 21:46:06 <mudyc> is there code available for it except the sdk?
Dec 19 21:46:21 * balrog-kun looks for a suitable url
Dec 19 21:46:32 <balrog-kun> mudyc: no, that's the point
Dec 19 21:48:11 <TimRiker> balrog-kun: and? did it work? is it available someplace? does it still keep all the normal linux services, which normal android boxen don't?
Dec 19 21:48:25 <TimRiker> mudyc: the sdk is arm native binaries.
Dec 19 21:48:42 <balrog-kun> TimRiker: http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/21/android-neo1973
Dec 19 21:48:51 <TimRiker> the "emulator" is more or less qemu with a linux kernel etc.
Dec 19 21:49:31 <TimRiker> balrog-kun: thx! reading.
Dec 19 21:57:14 <TimRiker> balrog-kun: nice writeup. to bad for the outcome though.
Dec 19 21:58:53 <balrog-kun> that's what you get with closed-source non-colaborative projects :)
Dec 19 22:02:12 <univac> :)
Dec 19 22:02:17 <mudyc> balrog-kun: otherway around would be to reimplement android api over sun's cldc wm for instance
Dec 19 22:02:40 <mudyc> but that's a lot of work
Dec 19 22:03:17 <balrog-kun> mudyc: it would probably be slower and wouldn't really count as running Android for many people :p
Dec 19 22:04:25 <mudyc> ...also the api is very well documented ;-)
Dec 19 22:07:02 <balrog-kun> i heard it's not so different from the original sun api
Dec 19 22:09:19 <Ghiottone> hello
Dec 19 22:09:44 <mudyc> half of the package namespace are anroid specific. then there are some basic java packages and apache packages
Dec 19 22:10:31 <MookiE_> hello, I had a problem with dual booting OpenMoko/Qtopia. Everytime I try to start "Boot from SD" this comes: http://www.privatepaste.com/df0d81tKNX
Dec 19 22:11:16 <Stephmw> balrog-kun: could you link an anchor to the conclusion in your first paragraph?
Dec 19 22:11:19 <Stephmw> balrog-kun: :)
Dec 19 22:12:25 <Stephmw> balrog-kun: also s/1937/1973/g
Dec 19 22:12:31 <balrog-kun> Stephmw: oh, that's not my text
Dec 19 22:12:41 <balrog-kun> i just found it educative
Dec 19 22:12:42 <Stephmw> balrog-kun: oh, sorry, thought it was
Dec 19 22:13:13 <Stephmw> yeah, I made the same conclusions just digging into the Android emulator/politics when it was released
Dec 19 22:13:36 <MookiE_> ??? can nobody help me?
Dec 19 22:15:37 <MookiE_> i have this failure:
Dec 19 22:15:37 <MookiE_> bad MBR sector signature 0x0000
Dec 19 22:15:37 <MookiE_> ** Bad Partition 1 **
Dec 19 22:15:37 <MookiE_> ## Booting image at 32000000 ...
Dec 19 22:15:37 <MookiE_> Bad Magic Number
Dec 19 22:16:20 <El_Salvador> http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=ky-gbF1rgb4
Dec 19 22:16:22 <El_Salvador> lol
Dec 19 22:17:30 * balrog-kun mostly feels sorry for the google folks for having to work in a closed environment, and also for having to work with a two years old qemu snapshot
Dec 19 22:17:40 <CM> hehe
Dec 19 22:17:49 <CM> balrog-kun: Did you se the recent ars coverage?
Dec 19 22:18:17 <CM> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071219-google-android-plagued-by-dysfunctional-development-process.html
Dec 19 22:18:29 <balrog-kun> there were so many bugs fixed since then, most current stuff doesn't even boot in qemu 0.8.2 due to some bugs in the core arm emulation, i can only imagine the number of days they spent working around the qemu bugs in their kernel
Dec 19 22:18:45 <CM> *nod*
Dec 19 22:18:50 <balrog-kun> (all of which have been fixed upstream long ago)
Dec 19 22:18:57 <balrog-kun> CM: thanks for the link, will look in a moment
Dec 19 22:22:44 <Stephmw> CM: good link
Dec 19 22:24:13 <CM> Stephmw: I really like ars technica's articles
Dec 19 22:24:46 <CM> And Ryan Paul is unbelievely productive when it comes to writing articles..
Dec 19 22:29:13 * balrog-kun doesn't know where the author sees a "highly primising foundation"
Dec 19 22:30:26 <CM> balrog-kun: Maybe he's seeing the immense stack of cash Google has and how long they can keep pushing Android? 
Dec 19 22:32:36 <balrog-kun> CM: yes, maybe, cash helps to make a good foundation for a big project :)
Dec 19 22:41:29 <nox-Hand> DANG IT
Dec 19 22:41:34 <nox-Hand> Maybe March?
Dec 19 22:42:14 <kdean06> Yep. :)
Dec 19 22:42:59 <kdean06> GTA02 and the next Debian stable will be out at the same time. "When it's ready". :)
Dec 19 22:43:00 <nox-Hand> kdean06: I think I'll have to get another phone before then, mind :(
Dec 19 22:43:14 <nox-Hand> My SonyEricsson is falling to bits
Dec 19 22:43:15 <kdean06> I'm debating over that same issue myself.
Dec 19 22:43:31 <nox-Hand>  mean, in June I was fine with waiting a bit
Dec 19 22:43:34 <kdean06> Will the GTA01 be "supported" after GTA02 is released?
Dec 19 22:43:35 <nox-Hand> But now, it's just so long
Dec 19 22:43:50 <nox-Hand> kdean06: Community help only most likely
Dec 19 22:43:50 <kdean06> Meaning... Is it realistic that I can give my GTA01 to my wife when I get the 02?
Dec 19 22:44:58 <nox-Hand> kdean06: I o
Dec 19 22:45:00 <nox-Hand> I don't think so
Dec 19 22:45:21 <nox-Hand> I have severe doubts as for it's speed and "user friendlyness" even at final release :(
Dec 19 22:45:49 <nox-Hand> My reasons for buying the phone is now limited to "GPS, WIFI, LINUX (yays! can do what I want :D :D) TOUCHSCREEN"
Dec 19 22:45:58 <nox-Hand> The rest of it sorta disappears, think it'll be slow
Dec 19 22:48:09 <kdean06> I'm almost doubting the validity of my reasoning now, honestly.
Dec 19 22:48:28 <kdean06> "Free your phone" implied Free Software but it seem more and more of it is non-free.
Dec 19 22:49:02 <mudyc> kdean06: why?
Dec 19 22:49:22 <kdean06> Why does it seem more and more of it is non-free?
Dec 19 22:49:31 <mjr> what is non-free?
Dec 19 22:49:42 <mjr> 'cept the gta01 gllin
Dec 19 22:49:56 <mjr> if you were expecting firmwares to be free, that was just unrealistic
Dec 19 22:50:25 <kdean06> I don't think so. 
Dec 19 22:50:53 <mjr> so you are referring to firmware then
Dec 19 22:50:55 <kdean06> I don't see how expecting firmware to be free is any more unrealistic than expecting the xserver to be Free, or the dialer, or anything else.
Dec 19 22:51:19 <mjr> well, "more and more" isn't really descriptive, since the chip firmwares were never part of it
Dec 19 22:51:37 <Magon> firmware of chips inside is simply too complicated and propriretary..like most firmwares are
Dec 19 22:52:06 <mjr> then you're blind
Dec 19 22:52:17 <kdean06> Is that stated anywhere? I mean, that there's no expectation that the hardware would also be Free?
Dec 19 22:52:18 <Magon> fimrwares of non-CPU chips are probably always propriertaly
Dec 19 22:52:22 <mjr> and not likely to be productive conversation
Dec 19 22:52:41 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: in some countries, making the mobile firmware free is actually illegal if you're going to sell it.
Dec 19 22:52:57 <Magon> same goes for any radio
Dec 19 22:53:05 <SpeedEvil> In most of the rest, it means you won't get certification.
Dec 19 22:53:08 <SpeedEvil> and can't sell it
Dec 19 22:53:28 <ajbrun> free = $$ or free = OS?
Dec 19 22:53:38 <kdean06> Libre
Dec 19 22:53:40 <SpeedEvil> free as in you can twiddle it
Dec 19 22:53:49 <SpeedEvil> and make it do 'bad' stuff.
Dec 19 22:54:02 <kdean06> :)
Dec 19 22:54:56 <ahven> can someone point out the big hardware fixes (not additions like wifi) between 01 and 02?
Dec 19 22:55:05 <ahven> one was the 850MHz bug
Dec 19 22:55:08 <SpeedEvil> none really
Dec 19 22:55:12 <SpeedEvil> that's not a fix
Dec 19 22:55:20 <SpeedEvil> the same fix could go into 01
Dec 19 22:55:25 <ahven> ok
Dec 19 22:55:50 <SpeedEvil> A fix would be making it quadband
Dec 19 22:56:06 <nox-Hand> Jeez, "I'm almost doubting the validity of my reasoning now, honestly.", you sound like an uncommitted suicidal standing on the top of a large building vavering over the edge
Dec 19 22:56:11 <nox-Hand> ^___^
Dec 19 22:56:49 <kdean06> That wording does look bad, doesn't it. :)
Dec 19 22:56:55 <nox-Hand> Quite :)
Dec 19 22:57:03 <ahven> so basically, when the PM goes online, the battery should last about the same for both devices?
Dec 19 22:57:10 <nox-Hand> *twirls large knife around in his hand*
Dec 19 22:57:16 <SpeedEvil> in theory, yes.
Dec 19 22:57:20 <SpeedEvil> maybe a bit more for 02
Dec 19 22:57:28 <ahven> hmm?
Dec 19 22:57:28 <SpeedEvil> as it's got a larger battery
Dec 19 22:57:31 <ahven> ah ok
Dec 19 22:57:36 <ahven> forgot about that
Dec 19 22:57:41 <ahven> and a faster CPU
Dec 19 22:57:47 <SuN> Now, what's really disappointing, is Android. I thought it was actually open source, but looking at balrog-kun's tests, it obviously isn't.
Dec 19 22:58:07 <ifeel> but doing some work on the kernel maybe we can have a longer life for our neo...
Dec 19 22:58:10 <SpeedEvil> The faster CPU - in principle when it's properly powersaved - may be faster
Dec 19 22:58:24 <SpeedEvil> ifeel: have you read the power managment page on the wiki?
Dec 19 22:58:36 <SpeedEvil> there are some 7 possible items to save power.
Dec 19 22:58:42 <SpeedEvil> about 1.5 have been done.
Dec 19 22:58:42 <ifeel> SpeedEvil: no...why??
Dec 19 22:59:08 <ifeel> SpeedEvil: I'm gonna read it now
Dec 19 22:59:22 <SpeedEvil> neo1973 power managment or something 
Dec 19 22:59:40 <SpeedEvil> Sigh
Dec 19 22:59:45 <SpeedEvil> wiki down for others?
Dec 19 22:59:56 <ahven> up
Dec 19 23:00:18 <ahven> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_GTA01_Power_Management
Dec 19 23:00:19 <SpeedEvil> oh - it's come back
Dec 19 23:00:25 <SpeedEvil> that looks like it
Dec 19 23:01:33 <balrog-kun> SuN: oh, they aren't my tests, i haven't tried running Android :)
Dec 19 23:01:40 <ajbrun> down for me...
Dec 19 23:02:10 <ifeel> the wiki page isn't updated since 17 Sept...
Dec 19 23:02:10 <balrog-kun> but yes this is disappointing and also disappointing was the UI itself, i expected some innovative ideas from google
Dec 19 23:02:18 <ifeel> maybe we're better now...
Dec 19 23:06:03 <nox-Hand> I admit the Android sounds good
Dec 19 23:06:13 <nox-Hand> untill you hear that killing word
Dec 19 23:06:17 <nox-Hand> J A V A
Dec 19 23:06:25 <nox-Hand> *stab*
Dec 19 23:06:35 <SpeedEvil> Well.
Dec 19 23:06:47 <SpeedEvil> There are processors with actual hardware java units.
Dec 19 23:06:50 <SuN> Java isn't bad at all, providing the speed is ok.
Dec 19 23:07:24 <SuN> Have you seen what Opera did with Java?
Dec 19 23:07:28 * SpeedEvil looks closely at SuNs nick for clues as to why he might like java.
Dec 19 23:07:36 <SuN> Heh, coincidence.
Dec 19 23:10:01 <balrog-kun> java is ok with me, but i expected something cool or creative from their user interface
Dec 19 23:10:14 <balrog-kun> and it's just like every other smartphone ui
Dec 19 23:10:20 <SuN> Hm, I'm looking at Engadget's tour now.
Dec 19 23:10:27 <mwester> Java is nothing more than COBOL for 2000 -- the "wordiness", the target developers and market, and the efficiency is all aimed at that same segment.\
Dec 19 23:10:42 <nox-Hand> From Google you'd expect a bit more
Dec 19 23:11:11 <mwester> There's nothing wrong with that, except if someone uses the wrong language to solve a problem, you tend to create code that is more difficult to write and maintain than is necessary.
Dec 19 23:11:43 <mwester> Coding a cell phone OS is *NOT* a business application.  Coding a PIM application might, perhaps, be such.
Dec 19 23:12:04 <mudyc> i like the simple design of java 1.3 but not beyond - it's a bit like C
Dec 19 23:12:49 <mwester> The fundamental characteristic is that it is interpreted, and garbage collected.  That alone makes in inappropriate for a host of low-level tasks.
Dec 19 23:13:06 <SpeedEvil> Java is not fundamentally interpreted.
Dec 19 23:13:08 <SpeedEvil> It can be.
Dec 19 23:13:21 <nox-Hand> Should have made it in Py ;)
Dec 19 23:13:39 * mwester checks his ARM manual to see if ARM has native Java bytecode instructions...
Dec 19 23:13:49 <SuN> mwester: they're not using it on that level though, are they?
Dec 19 23:14:14 <mudyc> mwester: it depends of the arm type, some of them has the jazelle extension set
Dec 19 23:14:21 <SpeedEvil> mwester: simply as it's interpreted on 99.99% of current applications doesn't make it fundamentally interpreted.
Dec 19 23:14:52 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  Ok, ok -- so you *THEORETICALLY* can make a Java CPU -- but that doesn't change the garbage collection aspect.
Dec 19 23:15:19 <SpeedEvil> gc can also have hardware assist
Dec 19 23:15:19 <mudyc> mwester: it's not theory - google for it and you will find a one
Dec 19 23:15:32 <nox-Hand> Hmn
Dec 19 23:15:45 <SpeedEvil> java and even forth bytecode cpus are around
Dec 19 23:15:51 * nox-Hand looks at the list of phones he can get for cheap due to his "loyal customer"
Dec 19 23:16:00 <nox-Hand> On my cell provider hardly anyone stuck to my plan
Dec 19 23:16:05 <nox-Hand> But the ones that have done for a long time
Dec 19 23:16:09 <nox-Hand> They put down the monthly price
Dec 19 23:16:10 <mwester> mudyc:  How does it handle interrupts?  context switches?  I don't know of java bytecodes to handle the activities for that.
Dec 19 23:16:15 <nox-Hand> And now give great offers :D
Dec 19 23:16:29 * SpeedEvil throws a pie at mwester.
Dec 19 23:16:39 <nox-Hand> Next month I go to top stage (stage loyal, plus and SUPER - I am going SUPER :D)
Dec 19 23:16:52 * nox-Hand grabs one of SpeedEvils pies
Dec 19 23:16:53 <LarstiQ> mwester: also, you can compile to machine code
Dec 19 23:16:53 <nox-Hand> Thanks :)
Dec 19 23:17:22 <mudyc> mwester: depends of the implementation. read it by yourself ;)
Dec 19 23:17:59 * SpeedEvil is pretty much of the 'don't care as long as it's adequately fast and allows access to all the hardware' school.
Dec 19 23:18:35 <nox-Hand> Dont suppose the  HTC P3450 Touch or the LG KE850 Prada can run Linux?
Dec 19 23:18:36 * mwester is of the 'seen it before' school
Dec 19 23:18:49 <SuN> nox-Hand: in ten years, perhaps.
Dec 19 23:18:57 <nox-Hand> I like the look of thE HTC TOuch, but... it's WIndows Mobile 6 o_o
Dec 19 23:19:05 <SuN> HTC has awesome hardware.
Dec 19 23:19:11 <nox-Hand> Admittedly still tempted
Dec 19 23:20:15 <jeremym> HTC?  
Dec 19 23:20:36 <nox-Hand> jeremym: This phone >> http://www.coolsmartphone.com/article724.html
Dec 19 23:20:39 <SuN> Some people are working on Linux for HTC devices. Not sure if any of the devices is ready for daily use, though.
Dec 19 23:21:46 <nox-Hand> I've just wanted a touchscreen phone for ages, and I think theres enough Windows Mobile mods to make me fit with it OK
Dec 19 23:22:14 <nox-Hand> And the price on "Plus" stage with my cell provider is 100 pounds, and it should drop when I turn "SUPER" next month ~~~~ think I want x)
Dec 19 23:22:25 <nox-Hand> ~~170 USD btw
Dec 19 23:23:26 <SuN> I'm happy with my E6, currently. Nothing too fancy but the OS is rocksolid and it's fast. I've heard (and seen) too many problems with Windows Mobile to not want to touch it.
Dec 19 23:24:19 <SuN> I think I'd sooner get an LG prada or Viewty than a Windows Mobile phone.
Dec 19 23:24:22 <Stephmw> nox-Hand: my take on UK data rates for mobiles is that we're getting shafted by three operators at once
Dec 19 23:26:50 <nox-Hand> Stephmw: I am currently living in Denmark :)
Dec 19 23:27:11 <nox-Hand> I pay 6 pounds a month and get unlimited texts ~~ then I pay 0.1 pound a minute to call
Dec 19 23:27:17 <SuN> Hm, judging from Engadget's visual tour, Android might not seem very spectacular but it looks OK.
Dec 19 23:27:35 <nox-Hand> Which used to be 12 pounds/0.3, but because I have had for about 2½ years I get better prices :D
Dec 19 23:27:39 <SuN> If it has some fancy visual effects, I guess could be more or less the same as the iPhone's OS.
Dec 19 23:28:19 <Kliment_> I think the only thing android really has going for it right now is customizable core apps and big industry support
Dec 19 23:28:47 <nox-Hand> Kliment_: I think V1 will be "wow" but not very useful
Dec 19 23:28:51 <nox-Hand> Sorta like the iPhone
Dec 19 23:29:04 <nox-Hand> But V3-5 would likely be "meh" but very useful
Dec 19 23:29:55 <Kliment_> I am at the stage where I prefer useful and reliable to wow
Dec 19 23:30:07 <SuN> Damn these VxWorks-based pocket-size routers! I fell for that with open eyes.
Dec 19 23:30:13 <Kliment_> thus my neo is only my secondary phone
Dec 19 23:30:45 <Kliment_> SuN: link?
Dec 19 23:31:27 <SuN> There's no link, but I can assure you they're crappy.
Dec 19 23:33:09 <SuN> Linksys moved to VxWorks-based routers from Linux, and this Belkin I have is basically identical.
Dec 19 23:35:09 <thomasg_> today I got a new linksys WRT54G, and according to the openwrt channel it's pretty useless
Dec 19 23:35:20 <thomasg_> 2 mb flash, 8 mb ram, fairly not enough for a solid linux system
Dec 19 23:35:22 <SuN> Is it a VxWorks one as well?
Dec 19 23:35:26 <thomasg_> yeah :(
Dec 19 23:35:30 <SuN> :|
Dec 19 23:35:42 <thomasg_> well, I'll send it back and get a asus or so
Dec 19 23:35:43 <LarstiQ> yeah, you need the L version
Dec 19 23:36:02 <thomasg_> also buffalo seems to have a cheap openwrt-capable device (8 mb flash, 32 mb ram)
Dec 19 23:36:19 <thomasg_> the standardfirmware of the linksys device simply sucks.
Dec 19 23:36:53 <SuN> Buffalo isn't very wide-spread here in the Netherlands... I'll switch to a PII 350 and use the Belkin as an access point only.
Dec 19 23:36:54 <mwester> heh - if you check the eBay listings, you'll often see people enquiring on the serial number of the Linksys routers before placing a bid - the older Linux-based ones are often more valuable.
Dec 19 23:37:31 <SuN> Well... routers is another field where people would benefit from open platforms.
Dec 19 23:37:44 <SuN> Most routers you can buy in stores today are barely sufficient.
Dec 19 23:37:49 <new_bie> thomasg_ Linksys still ships linux based routers
Dec 19 23:38:02 <new_bie> WRT54GL
Dec 19 23:38:20 <SuN> new_bie: those are pretty scarce at the moment, though.
Dec 19 23:38:22 <mwester> I've replaced the firmware in most of my routers, but I too made the mistake of buying a Belkin unit that is impractical to upgrade. :(
Dec 19 23:38:31 <mwester> The Belkin is now just an access point.
Dec 19 23:38:57 <SuN> mwester: I have another Belkin unit that supposedly can run openwrt... it's more or less identical to the WRT54G.
Dec 19 23:39:08 <SuN> Pre-v4 that is
Dec 19 23:39:29 <SuN> I bought 2 small ones, a Linksys and a Belkin, and they're both the same VxWorks crap.
Dec 19 23:43:55 <Jiten> buffalo has openwrt capable device? which one?
Dec 19 23:46:09 <nox-Hand> Night yal
Dec 19 23:46:19 <SuN> G'night
Dec 19 23:46:37 <nox-Hand> SuN: =]
Dec 19 23:52:16 <mwester> Jiten:  The dd-wrt web site lists a few of them; they're basically the same as the Linksys.  
Dec 19 23:53:31 <CVirus> sameo: how about you update us with the WiFi driver status ?
Dec 20 01:02:16 <dilinger> is there a list of ECOs between gta01bv4 red pcb and green pcb?
Dec 20 01:02:26 <dilinger> i see there's this one: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/One_transistor_too_many
Dec 20 01:02:32 <dilinger> anything else?
Dec 20 01:11:32 <shenki> red -> green
Dec 20 01:11:39 <mwester> dilinger:  I imagine that's proprietary information for FIC/Openmoko (the company).  They have told us only the one transistor changed, and there's no reason to doubt that, but I've not seen any ECO's published
Dec 20 01:12:26 <dilinger> shenki: heh, thanks ;p
Dec 20 01:12:42 <dilinger> mwester: sure,but if they're looking for developers, it seems rather silly to keep quiet about that sort of thing
Dec 20 01:13:53 <mwester> Changes that were material to developers, yes they have been very forthcoming about those.
Dec 20 01:14:07 <dilinger> that's what i'm asking about
Dec 20 01:14:30 <mwester> Ah, ok.  Then the only one is the transistor, and even that can be completly ignored by developers.
Dec 20 01:14:42 <dilinger> ok, cool
Dec 20 01:15:03 <dilinger> shenki: i was going to stick richard on the transister ECO.  handy guy to have around ;)
Dec 20 01:15:26 <shenki> dilinger: good one. keep the man busy, he's always slacking off
Dec 20 01:15:51 <shenki> dilinger: are these the PCBs that were floating around between richard and chris' desks?
Dec 20 01:15:55 <dilinger> yeah
Dec 20 01:16:04 <shenki> cool. they finally get some love
Dec 20 01:16:26 <dilinger> i'm ignoring the gta01bv3 pcb (or whatever it was)
Dec 20 01:17:26 <dilinger> but i'm considering buying gta02 when it's released (and writing it off as a business expense), so i might as well ensure this gta01bv4 gets some love
Dec 20 01:18:35 <dilinger> i don't suppose it's possible to pre-order those, is it?
Dec 20 01:18:56 <shenki> i've been hanging out for the gta02. my old nokia is slowly failing; i hope they don't get delayed further
Dec 20 01:19:17 <mwester> Nope, no pre-order mechanism.
Dec 20 01:19:57 <mwester> shenki: as long as you're aware of the current software state, and the GTA02's frequency limitation...
Dec 20 01:20:25 <shenki> mwester: teh software state i'm well aware of. what's the freq limit?
Dec 20 01:21:04 <mwester> The GTA01 and the current GTA02 are European tri-band -- lack the 850MHz band in use in North America (and a few other places).
Dec 20 01:21:25 <shenki> mwester: ah, no worries. im in australia
Dec 20 01:23:31 <dilinger> hm
Dec 20 01:23:33 <dilinger> i wasn't aware of that
Dec 20 01:24:04 <shenki> mwester: that's an artifical limit placed on the hardware, right?
Dec 20 01:24:17 <mwester> Alas, no. 
Dec 20 01:24:47 <mwester> There are only three tuned circuits on the GTA01 and GTA02; and presently they are for 1900, 1800, and 900 MHz.
Dec 20 01:25:16 <dilinger> mwester: what's the reason for not supporting 850MHz?
Dec 20 01:25:17 <shenki> ok. i must have miss-read
Dec 20 01:25:25 <mwester> dilinger:  "oops"
Dec 20 01:25:28 <mwester> :(
Dec 20 01:25:47 <shenki> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/December_09%2C_2007_Community_Update
Dec 20 01:26:06 <dilinger> mwester: "oops" for bth GTA01 and GTA02?
Dec 20 01:26:10 <dilinger> ah, neat
Dec 20 01:26:12 <shenki> mentions modifying a phone to talk on 850mhz. what kind of changes?
Dec 20 01:27:10 <mwester> It's the sort of mistake that just about makes one fall over in astonishment that it could even happen.  And yes, the GTA02 as well, but there is some experimentation underway to see if it is reasonable to replace the 900MHz ciruit with and 850MHz circuit, and thus create a variant that will work in NA
Dec 20 01:27:52 <shenki> im confused. my nokia doesn't talk 850mhz, and i used it in the US
Dec 20 01:28:00 <shenki> is it only some regions that have 850?
Dec 20 01:28:28 <mwester> Larger population centers use 1900; 850MHz is primarily used in the suburban and rural areas.
Dec 20 01:28:48 <mwester> (same for 1800/900 MHz in Europe)
Dec 20 01:29:54 <shenki> i see. thanks.
Dec 20 01:30:24 <dilinger> shenki: you were primarily in boston; i bet out in the sticks, it wouldn't have worked
Dec 20 01:30:36 <dilinger> well, and cali
Dec 20 01:31:22 <shenki> i managed fine in santa clara, mountain view, and then in LA - claremont
Dec 20 01:31:24 <mwester> Expressways are also often covered by 1900MHz small cells farther out of the population centers in order to handle the call density.
Dec 20 01:31:41 <shenki> but yeah, i was never out in the sticks
Dec 20 01:31:46 <mwester> So once you leave the expressway, you end up on an 850MHz cell
Dec 20 01:33:19 <mwester> The reason for the dual freqs in the first place is that the lower frequency gives a larger cell, reducing the number of towers.  The higher frequency uses smaller antennas, and smaller cells, so you can shape the cell more easily and you can have more cells (and thus handle more calls) in a given area.  Very neat system.
Dec 20 02:39:08 <jeremym> from the wiki app developement faq, can someone fill this question in for me.  " How can I add an application written with autotools to the openmoko tree?"
Dec 20 02:45:38 <jonaslund> question, what works and what doesn't ? (the phase1 sw testing page gives a strange view, stuff working then breaking ?)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 20 02:59:57 2007