**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 04 02:59:56 2008 Apr 04 06:05:45 freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r136 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Fixed list_providers method, modified it's interface and added tests for it Apr 04 07:08:09 hello folks :> Apr 04 07:09:37 Hello Apr 04 07:10:55 Hi Apr 04 07:12:19 Is there anyone online who is familiar with the ins and outs of the projects.openmoko.org website? Apr 04 07:48:42 freesmartphone.org: 03hepaajan * r137 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (11 files in 2 dirs): Apr 04 07:48:42 freesmartphone.org: gsmd2: Vendor interface changes Apr 04 07:48:42 freesmartphone.org: Error reporting changes Apr 04 09:35:08 * ScaredyCat watches a tumbleweed pass by Apr 04 09:47:18 Is there anyone online who is familiar with the ins and outs of the projects.openmoko.org website? Apr 04 09:47:56 yes and no. i admistrate it Apr 04 09:48:01 rtm, not sure, but, what is your actual question? Apr 04 09:49:59 Great! I've got a project registered, but I am likest as the developer, not the admin. So it appears like I can't do certain admin things like categorize the project under the Trove Software Map. How do I beome the admin for my project? Apr 04 09:52:02 if you registered the project you /are/ the admin arent you? Apr 04 09:53:00 It doesn't look like it. In the "Developer Info" box, Nobody is listed under "Project Admins:" but I am listed under "Developers:" Apr 04 09:57:15 which project? Apr 04 09:57:33 orrery - I am Ken Young. Apr 04 09:58:24 you were right.. were senior developer ther Apr 04 09:58:27 enow admin Apr 04 09:58:58 Thanks very much! I must have messed up the initial submission, somehow. Apr 04 09:59:01 that can happen if you e.g. set others to admin and delete their account or so ;) Apr 04 09:59:54 the rights system doesnt protect anyone from wrong handling there and allows signing away rights with no way besides an admin to get them back Apr 04 10:00:19 lets just call it 'flexible' ;) Apr 04 10:00:27 Is there a manual or FAQ somewhere that explains all the features of that site? Apr 04 10:00:52 uhm.. not that i know of. its a pretty standard gforge install Apr 04 10:01:13 so generic gforge docs should apply Apr 04 10:01:22 This is my first attempt to use anything like it. Thanks again for your help. Apr 04 10:01:38 I've used CVS a lot, but that's about all. Apr 04 10:02:28 basically its just lots of glue and php to tie mailman(s) cvs(s) svn(s) and other less nice stuff together Apr 04 10:07:12 roh: Is it possible for me to edit the project's "Short Description"? I'd like to add a link to the wiki page that has screen shots, etc. Apr 04 10:07:41 rtm should be. Apr 04 10:08:09 Oh yes, I see how to now. Sorry for the dumb questions. Apr 04 10:08:26 edit public info Apr 04 10:08:35 i need to search such stuff also Apr 04 10:13:20 roh: I classified my project as "Astronomy: in the Trove, and it shows up with that Topic on the project's page. However, the site still reports 0 projects under the Astronomy category. Does it take a while for that information to propagate though the system? Apr 04 10:15:06 * cb22 hopes to release youtube player v0.1a soon :) Apr 04 10:15:46 cb22: That'll be a popular addition! Apr 04 10:15:52 rtm to be fair, i do not know. that trove thing is suspect to me too Apr 04 10:16:04 but the simpler to find the better Apr 04 10:16:32 that trove map stuff seems to be intended for huge amounts of projects, not just a hundred Apr 04 10:17:39 rtm: i hope so :) the encoding server is |<-1cm->| away from being finished Apr 04 10:17:40 roh: I was all excited, because I thought I might have registered the first Astronomy project, but it looks like the categorization may not be completely functional. Apr 04 10:18:15 then i need to figure out how to use setuptools, then how to do a release in svn, then build packages, and then release it :) Apr 04 10:20:30 setuptools? Apr 04 10:20:46 python's setuptools, for rolling things like setup.py Apr 04 10:20:55 its distutils on setroids Apr 04 10:21:44 good morning Apr 04 10:22:04 morning Hopscotch Apr 04 10:23:09 i see.. python ;) Apr 04 10:23:30 that trove stuff could be done via repeating crons.. so lets just see if it shows up by itself Apr 04 10:23:46 I'll try to be more patient. Apr 04 10:24:14 roh: could be worse, i could be using java :p Apr 04 10:24:33 hrhr Apr 04 10:25:15 to be fair.. i like python, which is the first scripting language i do respect that way.. because its readable (more than some other language written code) Apr 04 10:28:03 and now it can be translated to other things too :) pypy! Apr 04 10:30:06 cb22, a youtube player? Apr 04 10:30:29 josch: youtube player and youtube transcoding server Apr 04 10:30:41 where can i get the source? Apr 04 10:30:50 transcode into what? Apr 04 10:31:07 josch: i havent started on the player yet, but the server is quite far along Apr 04 10:31:12 josch: streaming over gprs Apr 04 10:31:16 wohoo nice Apr 04 10:31:37 you transcode/stream on the fly? Apr 04 10:32:02 transcoding takes a little bit of time, about 30-40seconds for a 4 minute videos Apr 04 10:32:07 streaming happens real time Apr 04 10:32:15 where is your svn? Apr 04 10:32:29 projects.openmoko.org? Apr 04 10:32:43 if you really want to burn your eyes out :) yeah, the project is called youplay Apr 04 10:33:14 the video looks like http://cb22.za.net/videos/sample.mkv when streamed over gprs Apr 04 10:33:31 btw) the code is really ugly atm Apr 04 10:34:47 but there are two parts, first part: a daemon that listens on /tmp/video.sock (trunk/server/encoder) edit outputdir in that file to something relavent Apr 04 10:34:58 That's at GPRS badnwidth? Apr 04 10:35:07 SpeedEvil: yep Apr 04 10:35:12 That's quite impressive. Apr 04 10:35:44 thanks to h264 and vorbis Apr 04 10:35:48 indeed Apr 04 10:35:58 i still need to tweak the settings abit Apr 04 10:36:22 Hmm - that's wanting 10% CPU here - what's it on the neo? 80%? Apr 04 10:36:38 200% :P Apr 04 10:36:42 oh Apr 04 10:36:42 SpeedEvil: well, without scaling, it plays fine Apr 04 10:36:53 what i'm thinking is bumping down the bframes Apr 04 10:37:04 cb22, i played prescaled mpeg4 on the neo quite fine Apr 04 10:37:11 in qvga Apr 04 10:37:40 josch: this plays fine with no scaling, ahven did it, over gprs too! but add scaling and it slows down a bit Apr 04 10:38:00 i experienced this too with mpeg4 Apr 04 10:38:03 although that is full h264, not the easier baseline profile Apr 04 10:38:15 a 320x240 video is faster than a scaled one with lower resolution Apr 04 10:38:25 * SpeedEvil gets some odd sound-video offset Apr 04 10:38:45 SpeedEvil, maybe because of the mkv container? which player do you use? Apr 04 10:38:50 mplayer Apr 04 10:38:53 yepp Apr 04 10:39:00 i have them too with mkv there Apr 04 10:39:02 MPlayer 1.0rc2-3.4.6 (C) 2000-2007 MPlayer Team Apr 04 10:39:13 vlc is the recommended player for mkv Apr 04 10:39:26 SpeedEvil: hmm, i have -4.2.1 and it seems to play fine Apr 04 10:39:44 (not sure if that means anything though) Apr 04 10:39:47 * josch also has delays with mkv+mplayer Apr 04 10:40:00 MPlayer 1.0rc2-4.2.3 Apr 04 10:40:41 hmm, what is another suitable container for h264 + vorbis? Apr 04 10:41:01 Won't AVI work? Apr 04 10:41:13 nope Apr 04 10:41:14 it will but streaming with avi is impossible Apr 04 10:41:20 vorbis in avi is a dirty hack Apr 04 10:41:26 tar then. Apr 04 10:42:03 what about using ogg as the container? Apr 04 10:42:17 i consider ogg more stable than mkv Apr 04 10:42:21 yeah, but how can i get it into ogg? Apr 04 10:42:28 ogg or ogm? Apr 04 10:42:46 ogg as the container format Apr 04 10:42:58 josch: Both ogg and ogm are that. Apr 04 10:43:35 whats the difference? Apr 04 10:43:39 * cb22 installs ogmtools Apr 04 10:43:41 OGM is a fairly popular but undocumented and not really supported "AVI inside Ogg" wrapping by one coder. Apr 04 10:44:08 Tronic: do you know of something like oggtools? Apr 04 10:44:08 Ogg can directly store Theora and Vorbis, too, but AFAIK it cannot handle other formats (read: Xiph didn't bother to specify how). Apr 04 10:44:18 Just use Matroska, it is far better than any of those two. Apr 04 10:44:51 well mkv is better than *anything* out there feature wise :P Apr 04 10:45:06 josch: True, except for compatibility with closed players. Apr 04 10:45:12 yepp Apr 04 10:45:49 argh, great. i lost some changes :/ Apr 04 10:45:56 ignore whats in svn atm Apr 04 10:47:05 ok, its safe again Apr 04 10:47:47 it will still burn your eyes out, and kill kittens, however. Apr 04 11:13:41 freesmartphone.org: 03hepaajan * r138 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (20 files in 2 dirs): Apr 04 11:13:41 freesmartphone.org: gsmd2: Refactoring Apr 04 11:13:41 freesmartphone.org: Changed handler interface Apr 04 11:18:59 freesmartphone.org: 03hepaajan * r139 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/src/modem_internal.h: gsmd2: Add missing modem_internal.h Apr 04 11:19:00 * * OM Bug 1318 has been created by ragavendra.bn(AT)gmail.com Apr 04 11:19:01 * * OpenMoko not mounting on Qemu on Fedora8 Apr 04 11:19:02 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1318 Apr 04 11:30:45 Is there an opkg-link? Apr 04 11:31:13 ipkg-link doesn't appear to work with packages installed by opkg, and the latest 01 image doesn't have ipkg installed any more... Apr 04 11:33:39 wurp2|bye: Let's ping thos :) Apr 04 11:37:29 thos: ping Apr 04 11:37:34 :-) Apr 04 11:47:11 wurp2|bye, ? Apr 04 11:47:16 ??? Apr 04 11:47:21 opkg-link? Apr 04 11:47:22 no Apr 04 11:47:27 look at discussion on the mailing list Apr 04 11:50:10 Hmm, I missed that discussion altogether I guess Apr 04 11:50:14 Lemme search... Apr 04 11:50:50 wurp2|bye, opkg-devel mailing list Apr 04 11:50:56 Oh Apr 04 11:51:12 I didn't realize I have to follow the opkg-devel mailing list to keep installing pkgs :-( Apr 04 11:51:32 wurp2|bye, you asked a question about opkg :-P Apr 04 11:52:30 True Apr 04 11:54:55 So the short answer is that if I want to install stuff other than on the rootfs I just have to hack it Apr 04 11:55:14 (I read the 3 messages on the opkg-devel list that seemed pertinent) Apr 04 11:55:29 I think all ipkg-link did was to create symlinks Apr 04 11:55:50 Yeah, but for some reason it doesn't do that properly for packages installed by opkg Apr 04 11:56:33 wurp2|bye, well, like marcin said, just hack the ipkg-script Apr 04 11:56:37 or use unionfs Apr 04 11:57:28 hi inhabitants of the earth Apr 04 11:57:30 I don't really want to hack yet another thing on my neo. I guess I need to go learn about unionfs, then update the wiki Apr 04 11:57:44 wurp2|bye, hack it and the contribute it back to the community ;-) Apr 04 11:58:04 hmm, maybe... Apr 04 11:58:26 Sorry, I just thought I was gonna flash a new image on real quick before I went to work Apr 04 11:58:32 That was a bad idea ;-) Apr 04 11:59:02 Gotta go, thanks for the feedback, thos! Apr 04 11:59:06 np Apr 04 12:02:42 openmoko: 03thomas * r4308 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/ (ChangeLog data/gtk-2.0/openmoko-dialer src/moko-draw.c): Apr 04 12:02:42 openmoko: 2008-04-04 Thomas Wood Apr 04 12:02:42 openmoko: * data/gtk-2.0/openmoko-dialer: Add borders to keypad buttons Apr 04 12:02:42 openmoko: * src/moko-draw.c: (moko_draw_box): Implement border option Apr 04 12:12:54 openmoko: 03thomas * r4309 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/ (ChangeLog data/gtk-2.0/gtkrc): Apr 04 12:12:54 openmoko: 2008-04-04 Thomas Wood Apr 04 12:12:54 openmoko: * data/gtk-2.0/gtkrc: Darken "base" widgets. Apr 04 12:12:54 openmoko: Fix toolbar button prelight issues Apr 04 12:27:09 if you really actively use gtk on your neo you might have come across it's painful slowness Apr 04 12:27:29 fortunately ScaredyCat provided a much faster theme for us: http://blog.automated.it/2008/03/22/just-my-imagination/ Apr 04 12:27:52 and for all of those who this wasnt far enough there is: http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2008/04/02/brand-new-moko-theme-idea/ Apr 04 12:28:21 but i though that gtk was still too slow for my so I created my own theme Apr 04 12:28:27 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/index.php?page=1 Apr 04 12:28:37 now it's perfectly fast and all! Apr 04 12:28:41 yeah! Apr 04 12:34:15 freesmartphone.org: 03hepaajan * r140 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/configure.ac: gsmd2: Fix package name Apr 04 12:44:56 SpeedEvil, has anyone done work on that rsyncish proxy thing? (maybe getting a slight twinge of motivation towards it, not sure yet though) Apr 04 12:46:57 that feeling will soon pass ;P Apr 04 12:48:26 it is quite possible Apr 04 12:48:47 however, what with the gprs mux thingy, it's more and more relevantly also a personal itch Apr 04 12:50:31 somebody pointed me to Twisted, seems like a potentially nice framework for doing stuff Apr 04 12:50:39 mjr: You're using GPRS? Apr 04 12:51:45 yes, on the road Apr 04 12:53:30 emdete is looking for people to help him debug the phone stack (including the calypso firmware), so if you feel like helping him, please visit http://neo1973-germany.de/wiki/ZadTesters Apr 04 12:56:15 with the muxd and pygsmd installed as mentioned there, it "should" work with the normal phone ui as well as being able to do gprs, I presume? Apr 04 12:57:44 mjr: no, pygsmd has a different api Apr 04 12:57:59 in that case probably not Apr 04 12:58:09 Fair enough :) Apr 04 12:58:09 mjr: u need a ui that uses that api correctly Apr 04 12:58:10 it's my only phone Apr 04 12:58:25 Wow, you're brave Apr 04 12:58:29 'course, if there's a usable phone ui... Apr 04 12:58:47 lol there is *really* someone using openmoko as a *real* phone?? Apr 04 12:58:51 mjr: pyneog is not really far Apr 04 12:58:56 my n-gage broke (last fall) and I'm stubborn about buying a new one at this stage Apr 04 12:59:12 of course, "this stage" has stretched a bit far Apr 04 12:59:38 I'm glad it is usable for you, though Apr 04 12:59:38 anyway, not very brave; a phone is nonessential for me Apr 04 12:59:53 which is good 'cause it does bug out sometimes, of course... Apr 04 13:00:11 I'm more interested in having internet access, even slow, on the go Apr 04 13:00:45 which has of course been rather limited too what with the lack of muxers, but will have to play with that this weekend Apr 04 13:01:32 as well as see if I can prototype that proxy thing Apr 04 13:01:43 mitigating the slowness would be rather good Apr 04 13:02:15 Indeed Apr 04 13:02:50 oh i have a slowness fix somewhere around :Ü Apr 04 13:02:56 speed? Apr 04 13:03:09 mjr, http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ Apr 04 13:03:19 :P Apr 04 13:04:10 I'm not sure what's relevant there? Apr 04 13:04:34 except freedroid on the neo, that's very relevant Apr 04 13:04:39 http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/f95af325b69c7082e54c0d53ddd5f1ac.png <= plz do not take this seriously Apr 04 13:04:41 ^^ Apr 04 13:04:50 but fast it is indeed ^^ Apr 04 13:04:51 AHHH PLZ Apr 04 13:04:52 MY EYES Apr 04 13:04:57 *smacks josch* Apr 04 13:05:00 haha Apr 04 13:05:01 hehe Apr 04 13:05:37 josch, yes well. I did briefly entertain the notion that you wanted to show the dialer, but I underestimated your humor's suckyness factor Apr 04 13:05:51 hehe Apr 04 13:06:00 oh my god the horror the horror ! Apr 04 13:07:10 although ... Apr 04 13:07:41 it's kinda minimalistic if you try to forget the grayness factor Apr 04 13:07:47 :) Apr 04 13:11:04 * ScaredyCat grunts Apr 04 13:19:26 * cb22 puts a muzzle on ScaredyCat Apr 04 13:19:48 * ScaredyCat slaps cb22 a few more times.. Apr 04 13:20:29 looks like my chancs of a t-shirt aren't that high either cb22 ;) Apr 04 13:21:36 why is that? Apr 04 13:22:32 * ScaredyCat points at cb22's earlier quip.. Apr 04 13:23:11 I missed it Apr 04 13:23:19 I assumed you were talking about GSoC Apr 04 13:24:28 nah... Apr 04 13:24:30 he said I'd been downgraded from a gta02 to a t-shirt Apr 04 13:25:21 lol, oh Apr 04 13:26:31 meanie Apr 04 13:26:48 so I got an image built yesterday, and when I tried to run Apr 04 13:26:53 hi all, what i have been missing :D Apr 04 13:27:06 'make qemu-local' it would fail, but I dom Apr 04 13:27:20 don't have the error message, suggestions? Apr 04 13:27:30 Sup3rkiddo: how are you? Apr 04 13:27:31 ScaredyCat: No worries, you still qualify for catnip either way Apr 04 13:27:40 hehe Apr 04 13:27:48 summatusmentis, doing good..thanks...and j00 Apr 04 13:29:21 Sup3rkiddo: I'm well, tired, but I'm alright. Kinda just want SoC to be decided, so then I know whether or not I get a spot Apr 04 13:29:27 you know? I'm just impatient Apr 04 13:29:37 me too...:D Apr 04 13:31:06 ScaredyCat, did you get a chance to try my theme engine? Apr 04 13:31:22 no, not yet thos... Apr 04 13:31:31 ScaredyCat, I just made some tweaks Apr 04 13:31:37 I had an issue with it last night... Apr 04 13:31:38 it doesn't hae any cats ! Apr 04 13:31:40 ScaredyCat, most of the suggestions people made to me Apr 04 13:31:41 not worth trying ! :> Apr 04 13:31:56 double commit of matchbox dir? Apr 04 13:32:20 erk Apr 04 13:32:35 ScaredyCat, I removed the svn:externals and commited a new version Apr 04 13:32:38 ScaredyCat, has that confused svn? Apr 04 13:32:55 svn up was trying to crate the matchbox dir, but it's already there.. Apr 04 13:32:59 create Apr 04 13:33:02 ah right Apr 04 13:33:06 so delete it Apr 04 13:33:10 svn is stupid Apr 04 13:33:16 I blew away the existing one and did an svn cleanup... Apr 04 13:33:34 which seeed to fix it, but thn I got distracted.. so that's where I stopped Apr 04 13:33:38 :-) Apr 04 13:33:40 seemed Apr 04 14:01:05 hmmn.... wiki seems down Apr 04 14:03:47 jamewill: lists archive too Apr 04 14:10:07 Humm certainly a stupid question. OpenMoko/Freerunner is planned to be compatible with "android" ? Apr 04 14:10:32 Doubtful Apr 04 14:10:54 really, you should be asking the question the other way around Apr 04 14:11:23 the answer probably is... "Not invented at Google, move along" Apr 04 14:11:46 Zmx, no Apr 04 14:11:48 http://svn.openmoko.org dead Apr 04 14:11:49 ? Apr 04 14:11:59 thos: thx Apr 04 14:12:03 Zmx, andriod is armv5 only, neo is armv4 Apr 04 14:12:19 ScaredyCat, working here Apr 04 14:12:32 oh, free runner too ? I'm confuse Apr 04 14:13:07 Zmx, same thing Apr 04 14:14:27 (wiki seem down here too) Apr 04 14:14:34 hi Apr 04 14:15:05 I've got a question, maybe it sounds a little dumb: Apr 04 14:15:29 Is there a chance that openmoko will ever run on an iPhone? Apr 04 14:15:55 sure it could happen Apr 04 14:16:03 i thought u were going to ask about the birds and bees Apr 04 14:16:05 christian__, it happens if linux runs on the iphone Apr 04 14:17:18 well... Apr 04 14:17:18 thos, dead here too Apr 04 14:18:44 * zedstar in a talk by a iphone fanboy right now Apr 04 14:19:14 oooh shiney Apr 04 14:19:17 e- Apr 04 14:19:25 zedstar, tell him his phone suxx :P Apr 04 14:19:33 ask him if it's open Apr 04 14:19:44 ask him if he can install debian on it Apr 04 14:19:45 lol yeh im kil; Apr 04 14:20:10 killing time on irc instead Apr 04 14:21:05 zedstar, at the hackathon? Apr 04 14:21:13 i know that the iphone sucks! Apr 04 14:21:32 at least the software and the policy of apple Apr 04 14:21:41 thos yeh ...talks right now im waiting for the beer Apr 04 14:21:51 What is the advantage of opkg over ipkg? Apr 04 14:21:59 wurp2|bye, I wrote it Apr 04 14:22:02 oh wait Apr 04 14:22:03 :-) Apr 04 14:22:03 wurp2|bye: 6 Apr 04 14:22:25 wurp2|bye, it can do repository signiture checks Apr 04 14:22:32 wurp2|bye, it uses libcurl instead of wget Apr 04 14:22:45 Cool, thanks Apr 04 14:22:46 thos: but there's no info on what the sig is.. Apr 04 14:22:56 ScaredyCat, huh? Apr 04 14:22:57 otherwise i'd actually take the time to generate it Apr 04 14:23:01 ScaredyCat, just sign a repository Apr 04 14:23:09 ScaredyCat, and then install the key on the neo Apr 04 14:23:12 so it can verify Apr 04 14:23:22 hmmm Apr 04 14:23:53 wurp2, plus other misc. fixes Apr 04 14:24:04 wurp2, see wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Opkg when it's available Apr 04 14:24:29 eh, WFM again Apr 04 14:24:53 OK, I was just wondering if I should install ipkg & stick with my old neo init script I run after installing a new image Apr 04 14:25:13 wurp2, google cache version: http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:8MQaKTkzTQkJ:wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Opkg&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de&client=firefox-a Apr 04 14:25:17 or convert to opkg & fix the things I depend on (like ipkg-link) that don't currently work w/opkg Apr 04 14:25:23 wurp2, most of the time you can "s/ipkg/opkg/" Apr 04 14:25:24 * ScaredyCat decides not to sign any repo Apr 04 14:25:24 josch: thx much! Apr 04 14:25:37 the wiki works fine for me :-/ Apr 04 14:25:42 thos: I could if vi on the neo implemented s/ ;-) Apr 04 14:25:57 wurp2, use sed! Apr 04 14:26:01 ew Apr 04 14:26:01 thos: yes, now it's up Apr 04 14:26:54 wurp2, sed -i -e 's/foo/bar/' Apr 04 14:26:57 not hard Apr 04 14:28:37 No undo Apr 04 14:28:41 I know sed isn't hard to use Apr 04 14:29:03 why do you need undo? :-P Apr 04 14:29:07 But I quit using sed once I discovered perl, like 8 years ago Apr 04 14:29:10 * thos is perfect every time Apr 04 14:29:40 The same time I quit using awk Apr 04 14:30:03 and migrated from bronze axes to iron Apr 04 14:32:43 indeed Apr 04 14:33:09 openmoko: 03thomas * r4310 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/ (ChangeLog src/moko-draw.c): Apr 04 14:33:09 openmoko: 2008-04-04 Thomas Wood Apr 04 14:33:09 openmoko: * src/moko-draw.c: (moko_draw_check), (moko_draw_option): Force state Apr 04 14:33:09 openmoko: for unselected check/radio boxes. Fixes issues with check boxes in Apr 04 14:33:11 openmoko: treeviews. Apr 04 14:33:53 * ScaredyCat just uses slaves Apr 04 14:36:14 http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GSOC/The+Rules - wow, that page makes the company sound like a bunch of guys who have their panties in a bind Apr 04 14:36:45 "There is a wealth of experience in software development at your finger tips. Don't waste it." Apr 04 14:43:46 "In the contract world, non-delivery is unacceptable (unless it's for the government; or the Welsh development council)." Apr 04 14:45:18 ScaredyCat: Yeah, I read that, too. I would never do a SoC project for a company that uses google SoC students as cheap labor and treats them like crap Apr 04 14:46:07 perhaps their attitude has something to do with all the 'failures' they keep having Apr 04 14:47:50 I have worked on several projects as a contractor in which what we were building was of no use (and, while correctly completed, was of course never used) by the company paying us Apr 04 14:48:14 ScaredyCat, where's that quote from? Apr 04 14:48:55 http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GSOC/Absences in the 'Why we're so picky' bit Apr 04 14:49:19 ScaredyCat: I agree, though they seem to make a good job at scaring people off :) Apr 04 14:49:22 haha Apr 04 14:49:49 I assume if no one wants to work with them Google rop them next year? Apr 04 14:49:57 s/rop/drop/ Apr 04 14:49:57 ScaredyCat meant: I assume if no one wants to work with them Google drop them next year? Apr 04 14:54:35 Hopefully. I thought SoC was about students earning money while learning new things and helping the OSS crowd in the process - not about companies with ridiculous demands who expect students to be contract workers with completed education Apr 04 14:59:33 abraxa_: they sound rathe rbitchy Apr 04 14:59:57 eee 4g surf vs non surf, any major differences? Apr 04 15:00:09 besides a crappy little webcam Apr 04 15:00:54 one comes with washin g poweder? Apr 04 15:01:14 dont you still have your muzzle on? Apr 04 15:02:27 ~lart ScaredyCat for not making enough images Apr 04 15:02:27 * apt DoSes ScaredyCat for not making enough images Apr 04 15:05:49 wtf! Apr 04 15:05:58 lol... Apr 04 15:06:06 No Neo, no shirt, no love Apr 04 15:06:13 How sad. Apr 04 15:06:50 * ScaredyCat sobs Apr 04 15:10:53 ~lart everyone Apr 04 15:10:53 * apt executes killall -KILL everyone Apr 04 15:17:26 cb22: recently got a eee 4g non surf, great little machine... Apr 04 15:17:41 I think the surf doesn't let you add ram, and comes with a smaller battery Apr 04 15:23:28 freelock: is it nice? I was considering replacing my 3200 w/ a surf, how's the wifi antennae? Apr 04 15:23:46 s/surf/eee/ Apr 04 15:23:46 summatusmentis meant: freelock: is it nice? I was considering replacing my 3200 w/ a eee, how's the wifi antennae? Apr 04 15:24:47 It seems just fine... the built-in network management takes a while to connect, but the Xubuntu distro with network manager works great Apr 04 15:26:09 * abraxa_ sends ScaredyCat female kitty doll with a heart-shaped pink collar Apr 04 15:27:29 * ScaredyCat grins.... an evil grin Apr 04 15:33:27 * ScaredyCat wonders who keeps bacon in their wallet ;) Apr 04 15:34:20 freelock: hm :/ no ram upgrade would kill it for me Apr 04 15:34:26 i have a 2gb module just for it Apr 04 15:38:13 * cb22 looks at ebay Apr 04 15:49:46 cb22: Yeah, that's why I skipped the surf Apr 04 15:52:02 ScaredyCat: you have a freerunner? or at least a 1973> Apr 04 15:52:08 s/>/?/ Apr 04 15:52:08 summatusmentis meant: ScaredyCat: you have a freerunner? or at least a 1973? Apr 04 16:08:32 hi Sup3rkiddo Apr 04 16:08:46 summatusmentis, howdy Apr 04 16:16:00 freelock: i think i'm going to do the same... know some people who know some distributors Apr 04 16:22:15 summatusmentis: I have an 01 Apr 04 16:22:38 ScaredyCat: how big is it? Apr 04 16:22:46 like, does it seem really fat? Apr 04 16:23:04 < --------------------------------> [not to scale] Apr 04 16:23:20 ok, lemmie find a ruler Apr 04 16:23:32 lol, I'm just curious as to how it feels in the hand Apr 04 16:24:08 thickness about 1.9cm Apr 04 16:24:09 oooer misses Apr 04 16:24:33 width 6.3cm Apr 04 16:24:53 length 12.1cm Apr 04 16:24:58 that is not that large ... my nokia 7610 is almost as thick Apr 04 16:25:10 does it seem big in the hand? Apr 04 16:25:35 are we still talking about the neo? Apr 04 16:25:36 :P Apr 04 16:25:58 no, feels very smooth and easy in the hand. Fits to a hand. :) Apr 04 16:26:00 lol Apr 04 16:26:00 no, it's fine, but I guess it depends on the size of your hand Apr 04 16:26:02 thought was in wrong chan for a sec Apr 04 16:26:25 zedstar: heh Apr 04 16:26:37 It looks fat and honky with the fat rim around the screen and the rouned corners. But its only average not really fat Apr 04 16:26:41 It is fine in my hand Apr 04 16:26:57 smaller than a iPhone but not as thin Apr 04 16:27:06 I don't so much like the look either, and it's no razr, but it's not a brick Apr 04 16:34:01 no moving parts. Very robust Apr 04 16:34:02 no sharp corners that break Apr 04 16:34:02 as far as I know FR look & form factor are essentially identical to 01 Apr 04 16:34:02 the case is the problem really, that 8 foot drop to the screen doesn't help Apr 04 16:34:02 Yeah, I pop the back off all the time & have dropped it 3 ft to concrete, no effect Apr 04 16:34:04 does the screen get as dirty as other phone displays from fingerprints? Apr 04 16:34:04 I've been impressed that the back still goes off & on w/o problems Apr 04 16:34:04 baze: yep Apr 04 16:34:04 only if you use your finger >:) Apr 04 16:34:04 baze: yeat. And terryble to clean because of the fat rim arount the creeen Apr 04 16:34:04 a friend has a dell pda and its display doesn't show any fingerprints Apr 04 16:34:04 wow Apr 04 16:34:04 i was hoping for sth like that :/ Apr 04 16:34:04 anyone here have a neo, have cheap gprs, and feel like timing how long 500kb takes to download? Apr 04 16:34:04 Is it because the display is already blurry & grainy? Apr 04 16:34:04 baze: stylus vs. finger ;) Apr 04 16:34:04 wurp2: no ;) Apr 04 16:34:04 the feel of the case is nice though, sort of rubbery but not Apr 04 16:34:04 ScaredyCat: agreed Apr 04 16:34:04 the disoay is one of the best i have ever seen on a mobile device Apr 04 16:34:04 display Apr 04 16:34:04 I've never had a decent mobile before to compare it to ;-) Apr 04 16:34:04 i'm getting a bit afraid it could be too small Apr 04 16:34:04 I was never willing to spend money on something that was totally subject to the carrier's whim Apr 04 16:34:04 i like the finger usage with the iphone Apr 04 16:34:04 nor take on a 2 yr contract Apr 04 16:34:04 DPThough1: display one of the best? what about glare? Apr 04 16:34:04 one guy posted pics where it was looking nearly like a mirror in daylight conditions (no anti-glare coating apparently?) Apr 04 16:34:04 thats cool, mirror + phone for the price of a phone :p Apr 04 16:34:04 not perfect, but good Apr 04 16:34:04 baze: Until someone (maybe me) puts together a full screen kbd (overlayed on the current app), the kbd is way too small for finger use Apr 04 16:34:04 and the icons borderline for convenient finger use Apr 04 16:34:04 as long as it's usable in daylight... :-) Apr 04 16:34:04 programers never go out, what's the problem ;) Apr 04 16:34:04 haha Apr 04 16:34:04 hopefully a keyboard in landscape mode can work Apr 04 16:34:04 (the main icons; the title bar ones are only marginally usable by finger) Apr 04 16:34:04 well yeah. and being able to see the screen in all conditions is one of the fundamental points of a mobile device Apr 04 16:35:00 it's more on the glossy side. This makes it a mirror. But if you see it from a angle where you don't get the sun reflectet in your face it absorbs no light. So you see it well. Never feald it would be a problem in daylight Apr 04 16:35:40 The dpi are great. You can actually read text. :) Apr 04 16:36:02 thats key for me. I hate low dpi Apr 04 16:36:44 DPThough1: could you comment on another feature i've been wondering about? since there's no proximity sensor for the screen, how does the screen react to your cheeck when you're calling with the phone? Apr 04 16:36:53 getting a lot of mispresses? Apr 04 16:37:11 piksi: The normal screen when you're on the phone only has 2 buttons Apr 04 16:37:14 * ScaredyCat has never had a mis-press Apr 04 16:37:24 at the top, hang up &, hmm, something else Apr 04 16:37:33 wurp2: wouldn't that depend on what kind of gui one is using on it? ;-) Apr 04 16:37:34 mute? Apr 04 16:37:35 and a volume control that you have to drag near teh bottom Apr 04 16:37:44 s/gui/skin/ Apr 04 16:37:44 piksi meant: wurp2: wouldn't that depend on what kind of skin one is using on it? ;-) Apr 04 16:37:58 Right now, when you make or get a call, the gsm call-handle-thingy gui is what always shows up Apr 04 16:38:06 damn you autocorrection! Apr 04 16:38:27 piksi: well, this is the only moment where the deep cavity for the screen becomes handy. Apr 04 16:38:41 I still have oil on the screen sometimes from it touching my face Apr 04 16:38:47 but never a mispress Apr 04 16:38:55 DPThough1: i was wondering if that would be enough to keep the cheek far away enough :-) Apr 04 16:38:59 ok, that's nice to hear Apr 04 16:39:10 * mwester hands wurp2 a paper towel to wash his face with Apr 04 16:39:14 but if you had icons all over the screen during a call, I would expect a mispress Apr 04 16:39:20 i still would have preferred a hw implemented light/proximity sensor but perhaps in the future :-) Apr 04 16:39:39 because as the platform is open, someone might develop a popular gui with a lot of buttons Apr 04 16:39:43 oslt Apr 04 16:40:03 i hate the border around the screen. It looks ugly, you cant touch things in the faar corners and you cant whipe your screen off on your cloth. Apr 04 16:41:05 piksi: the phone has less buttons while in call mode. You really need to be lucky to press one of them. Apr 04 16:41:10 can't touch this.... Apr 04 16:41:14 do do de do Apr 04 16:41:54 ScaredyCat: yea, i feel the rythm of the 90s Apr 04 16:42:09 piksi: Well, when it gets a call, you normally only want a button to hang up & change volume, and one to escape that screen so you can do more Apr 04 16:42:18 likewise when you call out Apr 04 16:42:23 piksi: iirc there is a possibility of light sensing on the power management chip Apr 04 16:42:36 can't touch this.... << hmm, idea for a ringtone :P Apr 04 16:42:38 why spend money, space & power on hw for that? Apr 04 16:42:54 * DPThough1 just slammed his phne against different parts of his face. it never klicket Apr 04 16:43:00 ahven: :D Apr 04 16:43:02 s/phne/phone/ Apr 04 16:43:49 not actually on the chip, but it has pinouts to attach a photo diode to Apr 04 16:43:55 Oh, missed the chin. I got a klick there... Apr 04 16:44:25 you're chinning your mobile Apr 04 16:44:32 Of course, if you're slamming the display of the neo on your chin, you're probably not listening to the phone anyway... Apr 04 16:44:53 ahven: I think the people around you might have to 'accidentally' stomp your sturdy neo until it breaks if you choose that... Apr 04 16:45:17 just beeing accurate Apr 04 16:45:26 Someone near me has some fucking marching band midi music as their ring tone Apr 04 16:45:58 and they leave the phone at their desk any time they leave. The temptation to plant porn on their pc to get them fired is almost overpowering Apr 04 16:46:07 * ScaredyCat debates the squrrels ringtone as the default for images :) Apr 04 16:46:19 i wondered if pulseaudio was small enough, or the neo was powerfull enough to run pulseaudio in a usefull way, whatever way around you like ;) Apr 04 16:46:50 pulseaudio seems a bit much Apr 04 16:46:50 baze: ? I didn't understand that Apr 04 16:46:54 it would be cool to just use avahi and use sound systems running pulse+avahi to use them to play music over wifi Apr 04 16:46:57 and kind of shitty Apr 04 16:47:03 The neo can play whatever kind of music you want Apr 04 16:47:24 yeah, but pulse can use remote sound devices to stream over the network Apr 04 16:47:33 pulseaudio on the neo is vastly better since someone fixed the sync issue Apr 04 16:47:41 baze: ah, now it makes sense Apr 04 16:47:41 wurp2: and here I thought it could only play a squarewave at 15kHz Apr 04 16:48:12 Stephmw: I'm trying to figure out in what way you're being sarcastic... Apr 04 16:48:17 just discover the sound device on a media pc and play your music over that Apr 04 16:48:19 Is the neo limited to 15kHz? Apr 04 16:48:24 would be cool, imho Apr 04 16:48:43 It can't be... Apr 04 16:49:02 so nm Apr 04 16:49:33 hm, mencoders kb == 1000bits Apr 04 16:50:00 wurp2: it was as a response to "The neo can play whatever kind of music you want" - which I chose to twist to mean "somebody thinks it'll only play one type of music" Apr 04 16:50:04 wurp2: no biggie Apr 04 16:50:26 Stephmw: Yeah, I was just trying to figure out what the heck baze was talking about Apr 04 16:50:27 now I know Apr 04 16:50:44 'k Apr 04 16:50:51 sorry for talking in weird ways now and then ;) Apr 04 16:51:05 aaaah. I think there is no point anymore in laughing about this joke now :) Apr 04 16:51:13 baze: Your idea is intriguing, however Apr 04 16:51:50 oh sweet there is finally a midi routing library for CL Apr 04 16:52:17 this will be fun (using the freerunner as a control surface attached to my computer/keyboard) Apr 04 16:54:27 could you use it as a joystick? Apr 04 16:54:37 with accelerometers Apr 04 16:56:33 * DPThough1 imagines free hand theremin, rattles and snares Apr 04 16:59:36 there's not much free ram is there :( Apr 04 17:06:17 wurp2: yes i know what normally one would want to do but imo it would be dumb to restrict the phone in such way. for example someone might want to have a phone call while doing some pda stuff which for some reason would be clumsy to hide behind extra buttons Apr 04 17:06:41 ScaredyCat: i think he only wants to control another instruments via midi. Probably pitchbend foobar or something like the Korg KaosPad Apr 04 17:06:57 can gta01 suspend, if i stop pulseaudio,gsmd,bluetooth,blueprobe,xserver and rmmod all modules?? Apr 04 17:07:24 i get only a "suspending console(s)" ... Apr 04 17:08:33 piksi: if you don't feel lucky switch the phone back tho the dialer app before you slap it againts your spiky ears ;) Apr 04 17:09:26 Stephmw: you're misunderstanding the sampling. There is a filter after the D/A. This reconstructs a sine-wave from the input signal. See nyquist,Shannon. Apr 04 17:09:32 ste Apr 04 17:11:21 * zedstar just about to sit thru a qtopia talk Apr 04 17:12:01 nudge me if i fall asleep Apr 04 17:15:03 hm. Makes me think... One more stupid use case for the accelerometers. Strap the phone on your head and if it tilts in any direction it sounds a alarm. Keeps you awake in long meetings Apr 04 17:15:51 may look silly though... Apr 04 17:15:56 nah Apr 04 17:16:05 It will look great on you Apr 04 17:16:08 don't worry Apr 04 17:16:09 :> Apr 04 17:16:25 in fact everyone will want to see it Apr 04 17:16:28 so bring a camera Apr 04 17:17:11 a video camera Apr 04 17:19:28 ccfly: actually i did something like this already. I tested Navit navigation on a bicycle some time ago. I needed both hands and the sound was too low for putting it into my pockts. So i strapped it under the brim of my cap and secured it with my headphones. :) Apr 04 17:19:44 It was night, noone has seen me Apr 04 17:20:05 im armed with n810 only Apr 04 17:23:06 anyone with a neo and mplayer around? Apr 04 17:24:02 zedstar: nice device tough. I sold my N770 for my Neo. But was realy fun. But only marginally usefull. :) Apr 04 17:24:07 cb22: meme :) Apr 04 17:24:15 hehe Apr 04 17:24:43 ahven: ok, i'm uploading the video to my server quickly... Apr 04 17:25:00 cb22: starting up neo then Apr 04 17:25:35 im ircing from it the keyboard helps Apr 04 17:26:07 huh?:) Apr 04 17:26:59 ok ahven, could you download http://cb22.za.net/videos/nocabac.mkv to your neo normally please? (adsl / whatever :) Apr 04 17:28:18 downloaded, have to install mplayer on this build also Apr 04 17:29:13 the magic command line: mplayer -framedrop -vf scale=320:240 -sws 0 nocabac.mkv Apr 04 17:30:11 zedstar: indeed Apr 04 17:30:30 it's tiny cb22! Apr 04 17:30:49 ScaredyCat: in which sense :) Apr 04 17:31:12 in the tiny video sense Apr 04 17:31:29 and of course it doesn't go away Apr 04 17:31:32 Package ncurses wants to install file /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5.4 Apr 04 17:31:32 But that file is already provided by package libncurses5 Apr 04 17:31:32 Package ncurses wants to install file /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5 Apr 04 17:31:32 But that file is already provided by package libncurses5 Apr 04 17:31:33 bah Apr 04 17:31:51 fresh snapshot, 29 or 31 of March Apr 04 17:32:01 ahven, checl ipkg --force options in ipkg --help Apr 04 17:32:04 ahven: you can force it. :) Apr 04 17:32:37 cb22: is this your viceo encoder thingy? Apr 04 17:32:43 ScaredyCat: yeah Apr 04 17:32:45 video Apr 04 17:32:49 but... this is with nocabac Apr 04 17:32:57 cool, if a little small L:( Apr 04 17:33:01 and no bframes, it makes it a lot easier to decode Apr 04 17:33:13 ScaredyCat: well, it has to go over gprs Apr 04 17:33:20 and it looks better then 320x240 Apr 04 17:33:38 ahh, ok, I was looking at it as a neo encoder :) Apr 04 17:34:21 Doesn't no bframes mean it's substantially less error resistance? Apr 04 17:34:33 i thought it would be more Apr 04 17:34:47 i -> p -> b Apr 04 17:35:22 cb22: seems much better from the previous version Apr 04 17:35:47 any lag? Apr 04 17:36:14 not noticing Apr 04 17:36:29 :) Apr 04 17:36:54 at 320x240 scaled, right? Apr 04 17:37:05 fVO: [x11] 320x240 => 320x256 BGR 16-bit Apr 04 17:37:18 -f Apr 04 17:37:30 bbiab Apr 04 17:38:14 ahven: :) Apr 04 17:38:43 i dont suppose you know how to put your neo in 320x240 mode? Apr 04 17:39:49 I could look at X-s config Apr 04 17:40:30 The simple way would seem to be to hae another VT with X started at 320*240 Apr 04 17:40:37 I never got that working when I tried it Apr 04 17:42:43 ugh Apr 04 17:42:48 purple screen :P Apr 04 17:43:23 SpeedEvil: how? :) Apr 04 17:43:37 how did I not get it working? Apr 04 17:43:48 virtual terminal Apr 04 17:43:50 Xfbdev -foo :2 Apr 04 17:43:55 chvt Apr 04 17:45:04 hm Apr 04 17:45:13 but still it kindof mirrors the screen Apr 04 17:45:17 top & bottom Apr 04 17:46:53 ahven: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Video_Player Apr 04 17:46:58 you seen that? Apr 04 17:55:10 hmm, /sys/devices/platform/s3c24xx-spi-gpio.1/spi0.0/state is now ...? Apr 04 17:58:41 SpeedEvil: I was kidding that the neo was a monotone output device ;) Apr 04 18:00:00 Oh - fair enough - it's just many people misunderstand the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem. Apr 04 18:00:10 s/mis// Apr 04 18:00:21 s/mis/dont / Apr 04 18:00:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist-Shannon_sampling_theorem Apr 04 18:02:50 SpeedEvil: I will likely never fully understand that entry - I've forgotten most of my eeng studying Apr 04 18:03:05 SpeedEvil: I can barely integrate stuff nowdays ;) Apr 04 18:03:49 Broadly - you can reconstruct a signal sampled at xHz accurately, as long as it has no frequency components above x/2Hz Apr 04 18:04:02 Stephmw: its simple, you see, you just smoke some powerful stuff before reading it Apr 04 18:04:17 SpeedEvil: ah, ok Apr 04 18:04:17 In reality - x/abit more than 2 Hz - due to realisable filters. Apr 04 18:04:47 So for a 44KHz sampling, you can represent signals up to ideally 22KHz, practically somewhere around 20KHz Apr 04 18:05:12 * SpeedEvil is currently trying to wrap his head round the discrete cosine transform. Apr 04 18:05:13 out of curiosity, has anyone tried making neo dialup server? :) Apr 04 18:05:28 a dialup* Apr 04 18:05:38 you mean plugin a USB modem? Apr 04 18:05:59 no...dialing in through gsm Apr 04 18:06:09 it ought to work Apr 04 18:06:13 if your carrier permits csd Apr 04 18:07:33 SpeedEvil: I only ever implemented the dct (and idct) from specs, understanding largely not required Apr 04 18:07:54 I'm trying to implement JPEG encoding and decoding on a 32 bit processor. Apr 04 18:07:59 With 20K memory. Apr 04 18:08:12 20K fast memory that is. Apr 04 18:08:27 figures... guess what I was implementing Apr 04 18:08:40 in j2me though, not native Apr 04 18:13:37 hm, t-mobile pay as you go doesn't allow csd Apr 04 18:13:46 :\ Apr 04 18:13:47 csd? Apr 04 18:13:52 postpaid allows csd Apr 04 18:13:58 data call Apr 04 18:13:58 csd? Apr 04 18:14:19 circut switched data Apr 04 18:14:20 Oh. That's right. Except you can kinda connect to their services, at least enough to make sure ppp works, IIRC Apr 04 18:14:28 It doesn't look _too_ bad - I just about have enough memory to store a 8 line Y band, with the decimated U and V bands. Then in-place DCT 8*8 blocks. Apr 04 18:15:06 anrp: oh, I see Apr 04 18:15:14 otherwise id tell you, ahven Apr 04 18:18:08 i know csd works between two t-mobile postpaid sim cards (but not using a neo) Apr 04 18:18:22 i dont have a second sim card handy, though Apr 04 18:18:28 Nyquist-Shannon is why I knew Stephmw was full of it re: the 15 kHz square wave Apr 04 18:18:35 although I didn't know the name Apr 04 18:18:51 s/know/remember/ Apr 04 18:18:51 wurp2 meant: although I didn't remember the name Apr 04 18:19:59 how is a csd call different from a normal one? Apr 04 18:20:05 data circuit Apr 04 18:20:51 it's the setup that's - largely - different. Apr 04 18:20:54 it can be (usually is) error-corrected, i.e. transparent Apr 04 18:20:56 so it can lag Apr 04 18:21:22 But is usually an order of magnitude or better less lag. Apr 04 18:21:32 than gprs, indeed Apr 04 18:22:08 and a guarenteed amount of data speed (assuming no data dropouts) Apr 04 18:22:12 not "whenever the network is idle" Apr 04 18:22:36 nothing like a guarenteed 9.6kbit/s Apr 04 18:22:47 hey, you can send voice down that ;o Apr 04 18:22:59 encrypted voice too :) Apr 04 18:23:04 perhaps Apr 04 18:23:07 * anrp eyes the .. tamil? Apr 04 18:24:19 * anrp wonders if he should replace his vocal chords with a buzzer and a tube Apr 04 18:38:01 * RayDar tries the ScaredyCat image from two days ago Apr 04 18:38:19 hi Apr 04 18:38:52 Is daniel out there?? Apr 04 18:39:07 hello Apr 04 18:39:16 I am not Daniel Apr 04 18:39:21 no, but ajbrun is Apr 04 18:39:36 Well, then, who is Herbert? Apr 04 18:39:45 * anrp points to RayDar Apr 04 18:39:53 he's not Daniel either Apr 04 18:39:57 * RayDar is One Apr 04 18:39:57 neways wanted to discuss about that bluetooth adhoc development project... Apr 04 18:39:58 he's herbert Apr 04 18:40:19 can i have any mentor to discuss with?? Apr 04 18:41:22 rst9288: I don't think there's a mentor in the channel now Apr 04 18:41:46 rst9288: You're probably better off sending private email than trying to catch them on the channel Apr 04 18:42:03 Unless you just want to channel squat for many hours :-) Apr 04 18:42:51 ok Apr 04 18:45:57 Hmm, ajbrun, are you Daniel the mentor that rst9288 was apparently looking for? Apr 04 18:46:08 no... Apr 04 18:46:14 i am ajbrun Apr 04 18:47:31 * RayDar does squats in the channel Apr 04 18:47:43 josch: ping Apr 04 18:47:55 quicksand, wohoo! Apr 04 18:48:02 i was just crawling through my log Apr 04 18:48:09 because i forgot your nick :P Apr 04 18:48:18 josch: I didn't get a chance to run through the manual steps last night (relatives visiting) Apr 04 18:48:26 i just made another tar Apr 04 18:48:30 and tested it Apr 04 18:48:34 it worked!! Apr 04 18:48:40 so I'm currently uploading it Apr 04 18:48:46 2h remaining Apr 04 18:48:50 Groovy. I'll try it. Apr 04 18:48:57 great! Apr 04 18:49:01 What, 2h? Are you connected via carrier pigeon? Apr 04 18:49:07 -.- Apr 04 18:49:12 i have normal DSL here Apr 04 18:49:18 128kBit/s upstream Apr 04 18:49:22 Ah. Apr 04 18:49:46 36% are already finished Apr 04 18:49:57 if this is up - it will work for sure for you! Apr 04 18:50:06 Just to make sure I wasn't doing something else terribly wrong, I put an openmoko image on a different card partition, and that boots fine. Apr 04 18:50:21 So I'm looking forward to yours. Should be good, I'm thinking. Apr 04 18:50:27 ajbrun: hmm, "RayDar> I am not Daniel", "ajbrun> no, but ajbrun is" Apr 04 18:50:57 * RayDar wonders how to setup an application development environment Apr 04 18:51:13 [19:38:54] Is daniel out there?? Apr 04 18:51:14 [19:39:23] no, but ajbrun is Apr 04 18:51:22 RayDar, depends on what you want to develop Apr 04 18:51:37 RayDar's message being in between kind of made that hard to understand :-) Apr 04 18:51:47 i know, sorry :p Apr 04 18:51:51 wurp2: What would be the categories? Apr 04 18:51:53 Who Herbert is depends on what RayDar wants to develop? Apr 04 18:52:10 RayDar: core app, or a new userspace app Apr 04 18:52:15 python or C Apr 04 18:52:28 wurp2: userspace Apr 04 18:52:35 Toolchain should work then Apr 04 18:52:36 wurp2: C Apr 04 18:52:40 On the wiki Apr 04 18:52:56 * RayDar scours a wiki Apr 04 18:52:59 You have a neo? Apr 04 18:53:08 Search for Toolchain should take you straight to it, I think Apr 04 18:53:41 KO. Yeah, I got a GTA01 with the debug board. Apr 04 18:53:48 cool Apr 04 18:54:29 s Apr 04 18:58:16 ScaredyCat: Is http://buildhost.automated.it/sdk/openmoko-P1-Snapshot-20080122-armv4t-linux-gnueabi-toolchain-openmoko.tar.bz2 the latest toolchain you have? Apr 04 18:58:59 abraxa__: I haven't built a new one lateley - the build of it has been broken ... will try tonight Apr 04 18:59:08 Ah okay Apr 04 18:59:18 So RayDar, that link there is what you could use, for example Apr 04 18:59:35 thanks abracadabra Apr 04 18:59:46 heh ;) Apr 04 19:00:13 * RayDar is away: Food Apr 04 19:05:40 I think I keep poking the "hang up" button with my ear. Apr 04 19:05:49 I think that classifies as a usability problem. ;) Apr 04 19:06:33 orospakr: Ouch! Apr 04 19:06:46 orospakr: You should take off your Spock ears before answering the phone Apr 04 19:06:49 I just hung up on my vet's secretary by mistake... :) Apr 04 19:06:56 wellllll Apr 04 19:07:00 I'm pretty sure I'm human. Apr 04 19:07:16 how can we be certain of that Apr 04 19:07:29 Well, if I thought you were vulcan I wouldn't suggest you take off the ears. That would hurt. Apr 04 19:07:39 you could any kind of alien species bent on operating GTa02 with your freaky ears :> Apr 04 19:07:47 be Apr 04 19:08:00 put in missing words where appropriate :) Apr 04 19:08:01 I'm not cool enough for that; GTA01 here. ;) Apr 04 19:08:56 Yeah, if you had an 02 you could write something to try to detect "phone lifted to ear" and go into some kind of 'confirm clicks' mode Apr 04 19:10:02 maybe you could hang up by a gesture Apr 04 19:10:12 and a shortcut on power button Apr 04 19:10:13 Throwing the phone across the room? Apr 04 19:10:20 that might work Apr 04 19:11:21 maybe if you had to hold hangup for a limited time period Apr 04 19:11:30 for it to be activated Apr 04 19:11:42 any of those would be probably fine Apr 04 19:13:53 Voice recognition. Apr 04 19:14:10 'Enterprise - 1 to beam up.' Plays the appropriate sound, then hangs up. Apr 04 19:15:39 ccfly, I was thinking of just a simple keypad lock type thing that is displayed while the call is up. Apr 04 19:16:10 as Apr 04 19:16:17 oops Apr 04 19:18:05 i read something about gta02's accelerometers and sensing height Apr 04 19:18:09 and truth? Apr 04 19:18:24 You can't sense height w/ accelerometer Apr 04 19:18:32 boo :( Apr 04 19:18:35 unless you knew the height a short period of time ago from some other source Apr 04 19:18:43 You can get the altitude from gps Apr 04 19:18:43 you can't do that with accelerometers unless you know original altitude Apr 04 19:18:48 no Apr 04 19:18:50 and even then this is not very accurate Apr 04 19:19:00 true Apr 04 19:19:05 not even clise to accurate Apr 04 19:19:08 yeah Apr 04 19:19:12 o Apr 04 19:19:18 what if Apr 04 19:19:37 if user moves phone up, and call is in progress === lock screen Apr 04 19:19:46 user moves phone down == unlock screen Apr 04 19:19:50 sure Apr 04 19:19:57 You can probably do a little better than that Apr 04 19:20:02 but you dont need to know the height for this Apr 04 19:20:05 Detecting the angle of motion, how far it moves, etc. Apr 04 19:20:15 josch: yeah Apr 04 19:20:18 indeed Apr 04 19:20:22 you only need to know in which direction it is accelerated Apr 04 19:20:52 like when you use it as a phone, it will be parrallel to the side of your head Apr 04 19:21:24 going from being at 90 degrees Apr 04 19:21:36 unless you hold your phone weirdly Apr 04 19:22:10 anybody knows, what is wrong here: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/0ea7463164c600b87f08d74898a01873.png ? Apr 04 19:22:40 sweet bug Apr 04 19:23:26 RedDog, happens Apr 04 19:23:33 restart matchbox Apr 04 19:24:19 josch: it's on every boot ... Apr 04 19:24:32 lol? Apr 04 19:24:57 it's a build from my mokomakefile... is there anything broken? Apr 04 19:25:06 appearently... Apr 04 19:25:11 looks like a matchbox error Apr 04 19:26:24 error as in config error Apr 04 19:26:51 but it's not my main problem, and when nobody else has it ... Apr 04 19:26:57 RedDog: it's been broken for me similar to that in the past week Apr 04 19:27:02 how did you ss that? Apr 04 19:27:21 Oh - there may be a subtle clue in the picture. Apr 04 19:27:24 * ScaredyCat points at the picture Apr 04 19:27:26 Is that command-linable? Apr 04 19:27:49 cat /dev/fb0 >myfile.raw Apr 04 19:28:07 or fbgrab Apr 04 19:28:13 ss that? command-linable? Apr 04 19:28:22 * SpeedEvil finds svn: Failed to add directory 'trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/libraries/moko-gtk-engine/data/matchbox': object of the same name already exist' Apr 04 19:28:26 on make update Apr 04 19:28:29 screenshot Apr 04 19:28:37 can be run from the command line Apr 04 19:28:39 SpeedEvil: rm that matchbox dir Apr 04 19:28:44 and then update again Apr 04 19:32:54 you'll need to svn cleanup that dir Apr 04 19:32:58 or, the parent dir Apr 04 19:33:08 after the rm, that is Apr 04 19:33:14 * ScaredyCat blames thos Apr 04 19:33:46 svn blame thos Apr 04 19:34:05 well... it's his theme... Apr 04 19:35:03 in the default gta01 kernel, is there CONFIG_S3C2410_PM_CHECK set? Apr 04 19:36:21 * cb22 shameless steals code from SettingsGUI for youplay Apr 04 19:37:05 pooplay Apr 04 19:37:48 viewBoob Apr 04 19:37:57 shameless theft of code is what FOSS is all about Apr 04 19:38:47 code reuse is preffered term Apr 04 19:39:40 is there anyone from koblenz here who has a neo? Apr 04 19:40:06 baze_: Koblenz near Trier? Apr 04 19:40:12 yep Apr 04 19:40:20 #neo1973-germany Apr 04 19:40:24 ;p Apr 04 19:40:25 ccfly: Dunno, to me code reuse implies within a project Apr 04 19:40:32 and better not involve cut & paste Apr 04 19:42:13 that's internal code reuse Apr 04 19:42:20 hai all Apr 04 19:42:28 external involves using 3rd party components Apr 04 19:42:48 hopefully not of copy, paste, modify licence type Apr 04 19:43:00 I am trying to rum openmoko on Qemu Apr 04 19:43:14 run Apr 04 19:43:30 I get kernel panic ven I select BOOT Apr 04 19:43:49 it says try giving init= Apr 04 19:43:55 any help Apr 04 19:49:03 I'm just saying that I like to distinguish carefully between "real" code reuse and copying Apr 04 19:49:46 I always want to think carefully about copying. Of course, if you don't have any control over the code, and it's not exposed in a stable interface, you have no choice but to copy Apr 04 20:01:22 Hu, the matchbox bug was resolved in Revision 3425... my working copy is actual... but for an unknown reason the file on my neo isn't ... after a quick manual cleanup all looks fine! ;) Apr 04 20:02:03 how to create init image for OpenMoko on Quemu Apr 04 20:03:46 matchbox bug? Apr 04 20:05:38 wurp2: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/0ea7463164c600b87f08d74898a01873.png Apr 04 20:07:30 O, I never saw that Apr 04 20:07:53 ragavendra_bn: You want to build it, or just get one on there? Apr 04 20:08:40 can somebody tell me the difference if neo is woken up by power- or by aux-button? Apr 04 20:09:10 if you wake it with power button, it never works. Aux works sometimes ;-) Apr 04 20:09:45 afaik it's just a different interrupt, presumably with different stuff listening for it. I don't know the details Apr 04 20:11:30 wurp2: i noticed that the device wakes up with power, but only once and then the button is dead ... aux only sometimes works, but it is not dead after it. Apr 04 20:14:38 I am able to start OpenMoko on Qemu with the scripts given Apr 04 20:15:13 issue is 'I get init not found on Qemu terminal Apr 04 20:15:34 it says use init= option Apr 04 20:17:28 how to build it Apr 04 20:17:38 or get 1 Apr 04 20:18:06 as long as I can see OpenMoko on Qemu Apr 04 20:18:20 wurp2? Apr 04 20:19:14 i need something to debug this damn suspend/resume! Apr 04 20:26:00 is freerunner suposed to be out this month? Apr 04 20:27:18 TAsn: " New version is the FreeRunner (with WiFi and pre-alpha software) maybe due April " Apr 04 20:27:34 well it is april :) Apr 04 20:27:50 i thought there might be some new info Apr 04 20:27:50 * SpeedEvil points at the maybe. Apr 04 20:27:53 nope. Apr 04 20:28:11 SpeedEvil, i can read you know :) Apr 04 20:28:30 damn i want an openmoko! :) Apr 04 20:30:06 sorry, work distracted me from chatting ;-) Apr 04 20:30:23 * kdean06 notes that there's still many days in April, so it still isn't technically incorrect. Apr 04 20:30:47 RedDog: I didn't know that... I know kdean06's reports indicate that the device behaves as if the power button were held down after you wake with it Apr 04 20:31:36 kdean06: You think we won't make April? Apr 04 20:31:49 I haven't heard any PVT status Apr 04 20:32:46 Personal guess only, no. Once the units are done, there's still going to be time to setup the store, setup shipping, collect payment and do all of that and I get the impression that OmI is a bit taxed as it is. Apr 04 20:33:23 Though I have faith that things are moving... and having a 01 that's essentially "community supported" with potential hardware flaws... I'd rather have good hardware later than bad hardware now. Apr 04 20:33:36 is the battery life reasonable? Apr 04 20:33:53 Depends on how you define "reasonable". :) Probably not though. Apr 04 20:34:08 I'm getting about 4-6 hours depending on use. Apr 04 20:34:25 4-6 hours of standby?! Apr 04 20:34:26 Though, now that I can charge in my car, that's all I (personally) need. Apr 04 20:34:45 ouch. Apr 04 20:34:46 kdean06: Agreed Apr 04 20:34:49 TAsn: It doesn't have a standby. Apr 04 20:34:53 TAsn: There is no standby now Apr 04 20:34:55 It's always on, pretty much. Apr 04 20:34:59 I'm even being ballsy now and not charging on the way to work. ;) Apr 04 20:35:03 oh Apr 04 20:35:15 without standby i guess that's reasonable Apr 04 20:35:22 Well, there might be standby, but it won't really resume, so who knows (or cares) if standby works Apr 04 20:35:29 Well, true... Apr 04 20:35:32 :) Apr 04 20:35:33 As a side note... The new startup sound is BEAUTIFUL through my car stereo and sucks royally on the Neo. :) Apr 04 20:35:48 by standby i mean like regular cells Apr 04 20:35:55 The new startup sound makes my neo sound like it's wimpering on startup. Apr 04 20:35:58 On the Neo is sounds like two notes essentially. Apr 04 20:35:58 yeah, it doesn't work Apr 04 20:36:13 wurp2, ;\ Apr 04 20:36:30 So cpu speed is full, data is shipped over the bus to the lcd, gsm is on full power, all the time Apr 04 20:36:46 yeah a i got that. Apr 04 20:36:49 The only "power management" is turning off backlight, bluetooth, & the like Apr 04 20:36:53 not even cpu scaling? Apr 04 20:36:55 wurp2, Perhaps I need to rephrase my bug report... RedDog is describing ONE of the cases that I get. I've never have a POWER resume work flawlessly, but I've had it happen a few times where it doesn't power down Apr 04 20:36:57 Not right now Apr 04 20:37:07 Someone is working on cpufreq Apr 04 20:37:15 Although I haven't heard from him in a while Apr 04 20:37:19 cpu scaling is mostly implemented (cesarb did that), but USB is problematic IIRC Apr 04 20:37:27 yeah, him Apr 04 20:37:29 :-) Apr 04 20:37:38 damn, i need a moko Apr 04 20:37:51 There are ppl selling them, I think on ebay Apr 04 20:38:02 It's also not sufficient to just do cpufreq; we really need to be able to suspend/resume. Apr 04 20:38:18 that's not the problem the problem is the usability Apr 04 20:38:25 kdean06: bug nr? Apr 04 20:38:49 so you don't need one yet, then Apr 04 20:39:00 RedDog, 1313 Apr 04 20:39:09 i can't afford myself one if it isn't sufficient as a phone. Apr 04 20:39:22 btw, does it have vibrate? Apr 04 20:39:39 TAsn, I use my as my primary phone and digital media player. Apr 04 20:39:44 TAsn: yep Apr 04 20:39:47 Me too Apr 04 20:39:55 You just can't spend more than 4 hours away from a charger Apr 04 20:39:58 freerunner or 01Z Apr 04 20:40:01 01?* Apr 04 20:40:03 01 Apr 04 20:40:07 Freerunner isn't out yet. :) Apr 04 20:40:09 So 01 Apr 04 20:40:11 oh. Apr 04 20:40:25 I'll let you know how Freerunner does when I have one. :D Apr 04 20:40:32 and we're not privileged devs who get one anyway Apr 04 20:40:37 :-( Apr 04 20:40:54 when they said freerunner out in april did they mean consumer or dev? Apr 04 20:41:25 DEv Apr 04 20:41:31 ouch\ Apr 04 20:41:33 kdean06: yes, i allready saw this and i exacly have the same issue! Apr 04 20:41:54 :D Apr 04 20:41:56 and probably april 2009 or 2010 ;) Apr 04 20:42:05 this is why i'm wondering about the diff between aux and power ... Apr 04 20:42:06 TAsn: consumer will be at least another 6 months Apr 04 20:42:06 I've noticed it on several images. Apr 04 20:42:09 at the very least Apr 04 20:42:33 but I think power management is in much better shape on FR, even right now, than 01 Apr 04 20:42:58 wurp2, so you say i should get myself another phone for the meanwhile :\ Apr 04 20:43:55 TAsn: If you're waiting for the consumer version, yes Apr 04 20:44:28 I couldn't say what you should expect of a FR when the dev version comes out Apr 04 20:44:28 I don't think he can answer that question for you. If you NEED a phone NOW, you don't have other options. If you're interested in supporting the project then buying will benefit you in the long run. If you're looking for a phone with no quirks and that's IT, then you don't want an Openmoko device. Apr 04 20:44:34 should i? i mean is freerunner suposed to be worse than what 01 is now? Apr 04 20:45:11 I'm not sure anyone with real experience with a FR is in the room now Apr 04 20:45:29 I *think* the FR is working better than the 01 in almost every way right now Apr 04 20:45:45 gps seems the most likely exception, if there are exceptions to that Apr 04 20:46:01 ok and what's the diff between advanced and base? Apr 04 20:46:09 TAsn: The way you talk, it sounds as if you want a device that "just works" Apr 04 20:46:15 advanced includes a debug board Apr 04 20:46:17 wurp2, With the exception of X. Apr 04 20:46:21 Most people never need it Apr 04 20:46:26 kdean06: Oh, great point Apr 04 20:46:35 wurp2, my current device does not work at all Apr 04 20:46:35 actuall i don't think the'll sell advanced kit anymore Apr 04 20:46:38 If you want to do low level hacking, you need a debug board Apr 04 20:46:40 IIRC, GTA01 is actually slightly better than Freerunner in that regard, for now. Apr 04 20:46:51 there was some talk about debug mini USB board Apr 04 20:47:11 If you need a new phone now, the only choice is 01, and the battery life is 4 hours max until suspend & resume work consistently Apr 04 20:47:13 though i use it since i need it's symbian features Apr 04 20:47:55 But low level means *low* level. Even kernel hacking shouldn't require a debug board Apr 04 20:48:05 hw level? Apr 04 20:48:24 well i guess i dont need a debug board :) Apr 04 20:48:47 back in a sec. Apr 04 20:48:47 yes to put it simple direct on chip debugging Apr 04 20:49:05 Much of hte problem with 01 is that there are almost no docs on the PMU. Apr 04 20:49:17 in terms of PM requirements Apr 04 20:50:42 * ScaredyCat slaps kdean06 Apr 04 20:50:49 O_o Apr 04 20:50:53 What did I do? Apr 04 20:51:03 Oh.. the drunken theme thing? Apr 04 20:51:07 you've had it coming :> Apr 04 20:51:10 * ScaredyCat nods Apr 04 20:51:29 Yeah, perhaps that was a bit too blunt to be polite. Apr 04 20:52:20 ScaredyCat, To be fair, I don't like Orange, so neither Ubuntu nor the default Openmoko theme is any better. :) Apr 04 20:52:39 isn't ubuntu brown? Apr 04 20:53:29 the colours can easily be changed... Apr 04 20:53:40 Brown and orange. I don't think it's been straight brown since Hoary. Apr 04 20:53:49 :) Apr 04 20:54:01 pooBuntu Apr 04 20:55:05 Have you noticed any changes in the strength of the echo? Apr 04 20:55:32 * ScaredyCat doesn't have echo issues really Apr 04 20:55:40 I tested with my work phone just now and I noticed it slightly, but there was distortion too. I'm not sure if that's because my office has crappy phone service or what. Apr 04 20:55:49 Really? Apr 04 20:55:53 that only happens to some people? Apr 04 20:55:58 Or have you fixed it? Apr 04 20:56:33 well, you could compare one of my images, to see Apr 04 20:56:43 I can't replicate your environment Apr 04 20:56:49 Nice plug. :) Apr 04 20:56:54 :P Apr 04 20:59:16 Does anyone know if the applications we have no are "real" of if they're simply tests of the hardware? Apr 04 20:59:27 I know the media player is essentially "dead" but what about the others? Apr 04 21:00:13 From what I hear, just about everyone is waiting for "stable middleware" before actually building useful stuff but that's mythical stuff... Apr 04 21:00:36 I hadn't heard the media player was dead Apr 04 21:00:49 media player works fine Apr 04 21:01:01 wurp2, Dead in terms of development. Apr 04 21:01:15 is it? Apr 04 21:01:20 File a bug on it and you'll get a "Development on that version has stopped." Apr 04 21:01:28 ! Apr 04 21:01:37 from who? Apr 04 21:01:47 Ever noticed there's no "delete file" in the playlist section? Apr 04 21:01:52 abraxa__ Apr 04 21:02:21 I've noticed lots of stuff I wanted not being there Apr 04 21:02:31 There's no reply button in messages... No way to advance forward in a song playback. Apr 04 21:02:32 Hmm, maybe I should build one sooner rather than later Apr 04 21:02:52 * ScaredyCat slaps abraxa__ Apr 04 21:03:29 ok, well if the original dev has dropped it, perhaps we should encourage another to take it up Apr 04 21:03:30 I fully understand the idea is to get Freerunner out the door and build on that but I'm wondering a little how relevant in-depth evaluation of this software is when none of it is actually "active". Apr 04 21:03:31 Ow =( Apr 04 21:04:22 Yeah, kdean is right - I'm not working on the media player anymore since that's a tad pointless Apr 04 21:04:24 this is curious, because it suggests that once the freerunner is out they'll drop support for the 01 Apr 04 21:04:32 Not really Apr 04 21:04:46 I've actually heard something like that's already been said on the list... Apr 04 21:04:56 which actually is the opposite to what mickeyl said when I asked about that Apr 04 21:05:03 Hearsay, of course. :) Apr 04 21:05:19 it'll be in the logs Apr 04 21:05:20 It's true that the focus will lie on the GTA02 but GTA01 will benefit from the updates just as much Apr 04 21:05:24 !logs Apr 04 21:05:24 Channel logs for #openmoko are archived at: Apr 04 21:05:25 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/%23openmoko Apr 04 21:05:26 Live-logs are available at Apr 04 21:05:28 http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/livelogs/%23openmoko.livelog Apr 04 21:05:30 See ?? help-logs for usage instructions Apr 04 21:05:52 It's in the archives for the kernel-dev list. Apr 04 21:06:42 abraxa__: Why is it pointless to work on your media player? Apr 04 21:07:20 From what I gather, he's planning on writing a new one that WILL work on 01. Apr 04 21:07:24 wurp2: Three letters: EFL Apr 04 21:07:39 But I wonder if there aren't plans to do the same for the rest of the stuff. Apr 04 21:07:48 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-March/001959.html Apr 04 21:08:00 ok, so rather than anyone waste any time, perhaps we need that shit done now Apr 04 21:08:25 There's the kernel deprecation thread; that message is rather in the middle of the thread but it captures the "read-between-the-lines" bit. Apr 04 21:08:59 kdean06: I don't see a problem with that Apr 04 21:09:26 The infrastructure of GTA01 and 02 are almost the same, from an application's point of view Apr 04 21:10:33 abraxa__, Nor do I, honestly. I'm a huge fan of EFL and I'd love to see as much of the "Core" of Om use it. My complaint I suppose is at this point, how "serious" are bugs and wishlist complaints taken. I mean, I've mentioned two media player issues, have you marked those things as "priority" or just kind of filed it mentally as "somthing for later". Apr 04 21:10:36 abraxa_: O Apr 04 21:11:07 Mind you, I'm not complaining or judging or anything, but I do have to wonder what the point is of testing this codebase if it is all literally just test crap. Apr 04 21:11:44 kdean06: I can only tell what I gather from my own observations and I myself am not too satisfied with Openmoko's information policy as it is either Apr 04 21:12:13 I gather than that's... My impression is that you're not an isolated case. Apr 04 21:12:25 As for me, I can tell you this much: I wrote the media player last year, thinking that GTK would persist. Fact is: it doesn't Apr 04 21:12:30 hmm Apr 04 21:12:37 And as I said, I understand that so don't think I'm complaining to YOU or about you. :) Apr 04 21:12:45 in current openmoko build termcap is missing? Apr 04 21:13:04 install ncurses-terminfo (or something like that)... Apr 04 21:13:43 If you look at diversity, enlazar, illume, etc... you know where we are headed Apr 04 21:14:08 * SpeedEvil wishes there was a page saying that. Apr 04 21:14:16 I'll work on that. Apr 04 21:14:24 NineX: I have the ipk files for ncurses and ncurses-terminfo on my SD card so I can reinstall them easily after every flash of the rootfs - makes it easier. Apr 04 21:14:47 kdean06: Oh, I know. I'm not taking anything personally. I just find it sad that OM, Inc. isn't straightforward with its plans Apr 04 21:15:06 * ScaredyCat wishes they didn't have to have such stupid names Apr 04 21:15:17 We really should just come right out & bitch about this on the devel list Apr 04 21:15:25 To give OM the benefit of the doubt, I think perhaps they didn't know for certain where they were going with the toolkit until very recently. Apr 04 21:15:45 mwester: That is true but now they know... just don't communicate it Apr 04 21:15:51 If they are making decisions like this without an awful lot of thought, that's a big deal Apr 04 21:15:57 ScaredyCat: all the good names have already been chosen! :) Apr 04 21:16:13 Even if something is clearly better, if your bar for changing is too low, you just spend all your time switching infrastructures Apr 04 21:16:19 bah! What wrong with network manager, messages etc Apr 04 21:16:24 s/big deal/big problem/ Apr 04 21:16:31 It seems to me that they are leading with Qtopia on X for the GTA02. Apr 04 21:17:09 mwester: That's why mickey started the "middleware initiative". He's gathering resources to finish the middleware and *then* works on the GUI - which is why it seems right now like no progress is being made Apr 04 21:17:19 For something as big & open as this, there needs to be a clearly articulated & consistent direction Apr 04 21:17:35 mwester: The painful result from last year is that the top-down approach simply didn't work Apr 04 21:17:36 so wtf is the point, why don't they just drop this and use qtopia outright? Apr 04 21:18:12 Good question. Apr 04 21:18:19 qtopia approach also has its probs..... see zecke's piece on planet Apr 04 21:18:59 Would there be any bit issue if OM just chose Qtopia to start with, and see what comes of the initiative that mickeyl started? Apr 04 21:19:07 s/bit/big/ Apr 04 21:19:08 mwester meant: Would there be any big issue if OM just chose Qtopia to start with, and see what comes of the initiative that mickeyl started? Apr 04 21:19:18 thank you, apt. Good bot. Apr 04 21:20:38 Still, there's plenty to do that's agnostic to all that stuff -- like getting resume to work correctly. And integrating cesarb's stuff into the GTA01 kernel. Apr 04 21:21:04 Now that it's pretty much up to the community, I think there will be less "stigma" associated with a non-OM kernel development effort. Apr 04 21:31:28 kdean06: Sorry, I forgot to answer your question earlier Apr 04 21:31:41 I asked one? :P Apr 04 21:32:34 The flaws that the media player currently has will be fixed in the EFL version. Reason is that the current file chooser/playlist management UI was more or less a quick hack to make it usable Apr 04 21:33:12 I was going to redesign it to make it usable *well*, but then realized that it's no real use Apr 04 21:33:43 quicksand Apr 04 21:33:44 ?? Apr 04 21:33:47 where is he?? Apr 04 21:33:50 anyway Apr 04 21:34:07 mwester: and the damn anoying tendancy - not unreasonably - to assume that important stuff is being worked on internally, in the lack of knowledge due to no communication. Apr 04 21:34:09 now i have a fully tested and working debian archive - ready to deploy to your sd card Apr 04 21:34:14 it just works [tm] Apr 04 21:34:17 :) Apr 04 21:34:38 Cool! You can make a SD card fit? Mine just takes microSD! Apr 04 21:35:12 josch: what wm annd stuff are you playing with on it? Apr 04 21:35:36 SpeedEvil: Looks like people who come from a pure closed-source background while being afraid of competitors ("we can't let them know what we're doing!") takes a good while to change... Apr 04 21:35:46 yeah Apr 04 21:35:47 take* Apr 04 21:36:03 abraxa_, Oh, okay, got it. :) Apr 04 21:36:24 And it really doesn't play well with the open-source philosophy - where you say what you're doing to help avoid duplicaiton. Apr 04 21:36:29 Is that essentially a front end to mplayer then? Or is it "it's own beast"? Apr 04 21:36:48 kdean06: It's a front-end to both gstreamer (for audio) and mplayer (for video) Apr 04 21:36:58 I honestly think that the project could be several months ahead purely if there was a 'we are not working on this' list. Apr 04 21:37:06 mplayer however is a tough beast to tame, so support is rudimentary :) Apr 04 21:37:10 How does pulse fit into that (I know little of these media apps)? Apr 04 21:37:19 SpeedEvil, it's all written down here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian Apr 04 21:37:31 josch: :) Apr 04 21:37:38 Documentation! wow! Apr 04 21:37:53 mwester: think of PulseAudio as a replacement for ALSA Apr 04 21:38:04 As a replacement for ALSA? Apr 04 21:38:20 I thought it was supposed to be an ESD replacement... Apr 04 21:38:30 Oh.. Apr 04 21:38:32 As in - it only manages the access to the sound hardware Apr 04 21:38:35 Okay, I see what you could mean. :) Apr 04 21:38:47 "The final place to kick sound". :) Apr 04 21:38:50 Pulse does the rest. Apr 04 21:38:55 Yup :) Apr 04 21:39:07 And PA does kick ass. Apr 04 21:39:16 Properly configured. :) Apr 04 21:39:22 We have nowhere nearly tapped its potential on the Neo Apr 04 21:40:02 No, I'm quite happy with the capability of the audio system (some POTENTIAL hardware gripes with the audio jack) and I'm personally more interested in interfaces. Apr 04 21:40:46 Interfaces of what kind? Apr 04 21:40:47 I have a friend who wants an iPod killer, and I personally think that Neo could potentially do much more than a mere iPod could. But a lot of that comes from media management and making things seamless. Apr 04 21:41:02 We all want an iPod killer ;) Apr 04 21:41:17 abraxa_: moulinex do one. Apr 04 21:41:21 The biggest complaint I've heard about non-iPods... No podcast management. Apr 04 21:41:21 rofl Apr 04 21:41:49 kdean06: The best thing you can do right now is to mold your ideas into coherent sentences and put them on the wish list Apr 04 21:41:58 LOL Apr 04 21:42:15 I can only speak for myself but I *am* reading it and keeping ideas in mind Apr 04 21:42:39 Some of this need not even be implimented in the media player for the sake of simplicity. Apr 04 21:43:35 But imagine if your media player would actually check for new podcast episodes for you and (if you let it) clear the listened episodes out for you. Apr 04 21:43:36 kdean06: Chances are there'll be a D-Bus enabled dedicated A/V IO daemon handling A/V across all apps - it all depends on what we need and how we need it Apr 04 21:44:04 Is that on the wish list? Apr 04 21:44:27 I don't know yet, but you can be assured that now that I know you look at it, my ideas will end up there. :) Apr 04 21:44:36 Awesome, thanks :) Apr 04 21:44:54 Matter of fact I took some PIM ideas from there also Apr 04 21:46:19 Though, the list of wishlist things goes much beyond the media player. :) Most people don't know that the Neo has photo capability for contacts, but that's because Neo has no way to set an icon for them. :) Apr 04 21:46:34 But yeah, I'll certainly look at the wishlist. Apr 04 21:47:18 Indeed... Apr 04 21:47:39 I do wish we'd have decidated UI designers and usability experts Apr 04 21:47:44 dedicated* Apr 04 21:48:05 Then they could do the UI in mockups while everyone else does middleware in the meanwhile... Apr 04 21:48:45 There's a lot of inconsistancy in the UI. :( Apr 04 21:49:32 And it needs so usability review done. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the envelope with arrows is "Reply" and not "forward". :) Apr 04 21:49:37 Damn thing gets me every time! Apr 04 21:49:40 * kdean06 chuckles Apr 04 21:49:41 lol Apr 04 21:49:54 Well like I said Apr 04 21:50:20 The GTK stuff is past (imo) and new apps won't be written before the middleware isn't finished Apr 04 21:50:39 Cause what does the community do without stable APIs? Nothing, as we all can see Apr 04 22:02:01 mwester, Was it you that said you thought the new startup sound was bad? What did you say, that is sounded like your Neo was moaning? Apr 04 22:07:49 kdean06: :) It sounded like it whimpered to me. Apr 04 22:07:57 the startup sound should be *moooo* Apr 04 22:07:57 btw, does the moke have utf-8 support? Apr 04 22:07:59 but i'm biased Apr 04 22:08:19 Thanks. It's a vivid word. Apr 04 22:08:19 * ScaredyCat finds a mieow Apr 04 22:08:22 ! Apr 04 22:08:25 heh Apr 04 22:08:52 TAsn: UTF-8 support in what area? Apr 04 22:09:01 everywhere :) Apr 04 22:09:42 The GTK stack I don't know about - the EFL/python stack will Apr 04 22:10:01 ok Apr 04 22:10:23 i just need know wether i will be able to use non english langs or not. Apr 04 22:10:47 if it's native gtk then i am all good (or so i think) Apr 04 22:11:00 That's a pretty big if. :( Apr 04 22:11:02 rtl is also a prob :\ Apr 04 22:11:41 I think that's a rather large point of contention... Nobody know what the "real" openmoko will be. :) Apr 04 22:12:23 TAsn: RTL? Arabic? Apr 04 22:12:27 is there a way to run openmoko an a vm? or a simulation of some sort? Apr 04 22:12:41 abraxa_, hebrew. Apr 04 22:12:46 Ohh okay Apr 04 22:12:53 And yeah, you can use the qemu environment Apr 04 22:13:04 cool i will check that out. Apr 04 22:13:18 maybe even start to translate the ui Apr 04 22:13:47 TAsn, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Using_QEMU_with_MokoMakefile Apr 04 22:14:01 thanks Apr 04 22:20:03 if half the ideas people had for the freerunner got implimented.... Apr 04 22:22:14 That's where I want to go :) Apr 04 22:22:45 how 'fast' of a movement is need for the accelerometer to register it? Apr 04 22:23:29 Nothing outrageously fast from what I saw Apr 04 22:24:13 how about moving a phone from normal holding position to next to your ear? Apr 04 22:25:04 cb22, you can ask mickeyl when he comes back - he wrote some basic apps to read acc output Apr 04 22:25:04 The *movement* itself may be too slow but the change in orientation of the phone will be noticed Apr 04 22:25:43 josch: Yeah, we should urge him to do a small vid demonstrating his small portrait/landscape proof of concept Apr 04 22:25:53 indeed :) Apr 04 22:26:29 isnt he in austria afaik? Apr 04 22:27:13 cb22, he is snowed in ^^ Apr 04 22:27:33 good, lots of time for the freerunner Apr 04 22:27:48 lets just hope his wife is somewhere else, and he has a working internet connection Apr 04 22:27:53 perfect hacking conditions :) Apr 04 22:28:33 Internet connection is what he doesn't really have :( Apr 04 22:28:47 cb22, You're not married, are you? Apr 04 22:28:50 And his wife is the reason he went in the first place, lol Apr 04 22:29:17 kdean06: nope :p Apr 04 22:29:19 Wives find ways to add to the honeydo list... Being alone on the surface of Mars doesn't stop them... Apr 04 22:29:39 skiing, wife, holidays... internet connection is probably not compatible. :D Apr 04 22:29:53 poor guy, someone through him a high speed hsdpa modem Apr 04 22:30:31 kdean06: i can imagine, my gf is bad enough already :( and the problem is you cannot deny them Apr 04 22:30:40 * kdean06 chuckles Apr 04 22:31:28 I'm happily married, and I do have my own time. But a little snow storm, nuclear war or mass extinctions aren't much of an obstacle. :) Apr 04 22:32:26 cb22, he has to pay 6€ per hour for internets :-( Apr 04 22:32:35 damn, so my stash of thermonuclear warheads is useless now? Apr 04 22:32:40 josch: ouch Apr 04 22:32:48 Oh no. Apr 04 22:33:43 It's just no longer "your" stash very soon now. That's all. Apr 04 22:34:38 lol mwester Apr 04 22:38:21 haha! I has a meow! Apr 04 22:39:00 wurp2|better_go: I wasn't full of it, I was simply talking about something else :) Apr 04 22:39:17 ScaredyCat: Define "meow" please Apr 04 22:39:33 the sound a cat makes..... Apr 04 22:39:42 mwow... Apr 04 22:39:45 mwow... Apr 04 22:39:49 mwow... Apr 04 22:39:50 You swallowed a cat and it makes noises now? Apr 04 22:39:55 (phonetic) Apr 04 22:41:16 no... Apr 04 22:41:31 I has a meow ... startup sound on my build :P Apr 04 22:42:05 * Stephmw heads to bed Apr 04 22:42:31 why don't you walk Stephmw? Apr 04 22:43:59 lol, that's cute Apr 04 22:45:55 desu Apr 04 22:56:42 lol, desu Apr 04 22:59:13 DESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESUDESU Apr 04 23:00:28 SUED Apr 04 23:18:16 desu? Apr 04 23:18:21 i think i heard someone say DESU! Apr 04 23:20:08 * SpeedEvil ponders 4chanmoko. Apr 04 23:20:20 does it arrive? Apr 04 23:21:01 it isn't closedmoko, after all Apr 04 23:21:34 ScaredyCat, is there a metapackage for the target toolchain so I can have it built manually? Apr 04 23:26:30 Stephmw: I wasn't trying to be insulting! I thought you were being totally fascetious with your 15 kHz remark Apr 04 23:26:33 Were you not? Apr 04 23:32:32 okay, going to bed now Apr 04 23:32:49 if quicksand appears, plz tell him that i prepared everything for him Apr 04 23:33:08 he can wget the new tar as usual: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian Apr 04 23:34:40 * mjr wrote a quick and dirty streaming webpage differ for that proxy thing one'd want Apr 04 23:35:06 what thing is that? Apr 04 23:35:22 that thing: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:WebProxy Apr 04 23:36:48 the hard part would be next.. Apr 04 23:37:12 hmm Apr 04 23:37:13 ? Apr 04 23:40:56 * anrp idly wonders about the hard part Apr 04 23:42:38 good night Apr 04 23:52:39 anrp, putting it all into a proxy thingy Apr 04 23:55:06 mmm Apr 04 23:55:15 that makes sense.. you need two custom proxies Apr 04 23:55:21 one for the device and one remote Apr 04 23:56:18 yes Apr 04 23:59:08 with my current code I get 11254->1626 bytes plain gz versus diff to earlier+gz on a couple of ebay snapshots. Not quite what's painted on the wiki page but worthwhile... Apr 05 00:00:34 'course, with a local newspaper page it goes 26724->892 bytes... Apr 05 00:00:44 but that's rather pathological Apr 05 00:01:03 why didn't the topic change to maybe due April 2009 ? Apr 05 00:01:10 as you guys usually do Apr 05 00:03:07 april fools joke, maybe Apr 05 00:08:49 mwester: My stuff isn't ready for integration (well, the part that's already finished is ready, but some important parts are still lacking, like usb, sd, and sound) Apr 05 00:09:18 mwester: otoh, it does nothing unless enabled by an echo to the right sysfs file, so it's not much of a problem... Apr 05 01:11:36 hi all :) Apr 05 02:02:01 &2 Apr 05 02:02:32 &2 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 05 02:59:57 2008