**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 06 02:59:56 2008
Apr 06 04:27:11 <nezza-_-> mojen.. weiss jemand ob edje viele floats beim rendern benutzt?
Apr 06 05:23:52 <summatusmentis> SpeedEvil: I meant how do they test if the freerunner can test being dropped from a unicorn
Apr 06 05:33:34 <SpeedEvil> I may not have been completely serious.
Apr 06 05:33:42 <SpeedEvil> It was a hippogryph.
Apr 06 05:35:08 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Apr 06 05:35:27 <SpeedEvil> Dissasembled server, so now I have no images to flash my neo with.
Apr 06 05:35:33 * SpeedEvil wonders.
Apr 06 05:38:59 <mwester> Mouse in the server?
Apr 06 05:39:43 <SpeedEvil> No.
Apr 06 05:39:49 <SpeedEvil> I was upgrading foolishly.
Apr 06 05:40:06 * CM would like to do some foolish upgrades too :D
Apr 06 05:40:17 <SpeedEvil> Someone gave me a faster motherboard with a broken HDMI socket
Apr 06 05:40:22 <SpeedEvil> (which I don't use)
Apr 06 05:40:44 <SpeedEvil> So I dissasembled my (not properly cased) server pile, and then reassembled.
Apr 06 05:41:01 <SpeedEvil> Only to note when about to complete, the lack of PATA sockets.
Apr 06 05:41:21 <SpeedEvil> Hence foolish.
Apr 06 05:41:33 <CM> Hehe
Apr 06 05:41:43 * mwester has a PCI-express PATA card in his build machine, due to a similar error...
Apr 06 05:42:17 <SpeedEvil> Oh well - I still have my laptop.
Apr 06 05:42:30 <SpeedEvil> And my (somewhat broken) neo.
Apr 06 05:42:42 <mwester> It's broken too?
Apr 06 05:43:01 <SpeedEvil> MMF has not been producing working images for me for the past week or two.
Apr 06 05:43:16 <CM> Not for the last 2-3 months for me
Apr 06 05:43:19 <SpeedEvil> Even new fresh copies started completely from scratch.
Apr 06 05:43:26 <CM> I just can't get the stinking pth to build
Apr 06 05:43:28 <mwester> Working ok here...
Apr 06 05:43:42 <mwester> I just built last night.
Apr 06 05:43:56 <SpeedEvil> I diddn't try last night - owing to the above dissasembly.
Apr 06 05:44:16 <SpeedEvil> The whole topbar missing thing.
Apr 06 05:44:20 <CM> I've tried everything, restarting from scratch, refetching all sources, all combinations of binary locales for glibc..
Apr 06 05:44:28 * CM tries for the 100th time
Apr 06 05:44:38 <mwester> Disable binary locales.
Apr 06 05:44:54 <CM> mwester: Yes, that's what I've used most of the time
Apr 06 05:45:18 <CM> But pth fails because of some glib issue, so I tried to add binary locales again just to try
Apr 06 05:45:30 <mwester> The topbar missing...  
Apr 06 05:45:33 <mwester> PREFERRED_PROVIDER_virtual/libqte2 = "qte"
Apr 06 05:45:39 <mwester> ? perhaps?
Apr 06 05:46:56 <SpeedEvil> I have no clue.
Apr 06 05:47:11 <mwester> CM: have you tried completely from scratch (i.e. blow away everything except your downloads/sources directory?
Apr 06 05:47:16 <mwester> )
Apr 06 05:47:17 <SpeedEvil> I've tried to avoid reading up on openembedded, as I fear my brain may explode.
Apr 06 05:47:34 <SpeedEvil> mwester: I've tried several times starting from a solitary makefile
Apr 06 05:47:37 <CM> mwester: Yes, completely from scratch, just the makefile
Apr 06 05:47:47 <mwester> Ok.  Ouch.
Apr 06 05:47:53 <CM> mwester: Not even keeping the sources in case they were borked
Apr 06 05:48:17 <CM> I just find it very odd, since I'm the only one getting this error
Apr 06 05:48:44 <CM> XorA had gotten it some years ago, for a while, but it went away after a while or something
Apr 06 05:48:46 <mwester> All my build systems (I have three, with two up-to-date) work, but they are all Fedora-based, so perhaps there are distro-specific problems. ;(
Apr 06 05:48:53 <SpeedEvil> CM: what happens when it works?
Apr 06 05:48:58 * SpeedEvil is on slackware.
Apr 06 05:49:01 <CM> pth builds
Apr 06 05:49:05 <SpeedEvil> Maybe I should upgrade bitbake,...
Apr 06 05:49:12 <CM> ~blame gentoo
Apr 06 05:49:13 * apt blames gentoo (and Canada) for all the evil in the world
Apr 06 05:54:28 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  any customizations to the kernel in your images?
Apr 06 05:56:05 <SpeedEvil> No
Apr 06 05:56:09 <SpeedEvil> stock kernel
Apr 06 05:56:19 <SpeedEvil> I started completely from scratch
Apr 06 05:57:20 <SpeedEvil> The 'underground' images. Do they just have a flourescant german 'home' app, or is there other stuff in there.
Apr 06 05:58:08 <mwester> What are 'underground' images?
Apr 06 05:58:25 <SpeedEvil> http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/?M=D
Apr 06 05:58:26 <CM> the python stuff
Apr 06 05:58:32 <CM> emdete's work
Apr 06 05:58:59 * mwester hasn't kept up lately :(
Apr 06 06:01:09 <SpeedEvil> With a confusing keyboard.
Apr 06 06:10:45 <SpeedEvil> Oooh - /me has a pink cat.
Apr 06 06:14:39 <mwester> You're supposed to wash colors separately.
Apr 06 06:57:44 * SpeedEvil has snow!
Apr 06 06:57:58 <SpeedEvil> And more oddly, a GPS lock from cold indoors.
Apr 06 07:10:16 <SpeedEvil> http://b3ta.com/questions/diy/post137479
Apr 06 07:12:19 <CM> Hehe
Apr 06 07:13:30 * SpeedEvil ponders.
Apr 06 07:13:39 <SpeedEvil> I should really try to get GPRS working again.
Apr 06 07:14:07 <CM> I should really try to get usb networking working again
Apr 06 07:14:17 <CM> No clue why that stopped working :(
Apr 06 07:15:42 <SpeedEvil> Works for me.
Apr 06 07:15:55 <SpeedEvil> That's the one thing that's never broken.
Apr 06 07:16:15 <CM> It worked for about 6 months for me
Apr 06 07:18:42 <SpeedEvil> http://www.three.co.uk/personal/products_services_/mobile_broadband_/detail.omp Insane. 'broadband casual'. 1 pound a megabyte and no allowance. And on a device that can do a megabyte in a couple of seconds...
Apr 06 07:28:24 <doc|home> mickey|ouch
Apr 06 07:28:26 <doc|home> er, ouch
Apr 06 07:28:32 <doc|home> stupid tab complete
Apr 06 07:28:45 <doc|home> although we pay a dollar a megabyte here :/
Apr 06 07:31:20 <doc|home> actually, my mistake, it's Unlimited e-mails with most popular domains  	+ 2 MB of surfing: $15 per month and  $10 per additional MB
Apr 06 07:31:51 <SpeedEvil> $10!
Apr 06 07:31:54 <SpeedEvil> Wow.
Apr 06 07:32:02 <SpeedEvil> Is that on GPRS?
Apr 06 07:32:55 <doc|home> yeah
Apr 06 07:33:39 <doc|home> see, what they've done is shoot themselves in the foot, if we had some of the better plans, similar to what they have in the UK, I'd be prepared to give them my money, but instead my money's going to whatever the closest cafe with free wifi is
Apr 06 07:34:21 <doc|home> I then get the added advantage of a) warm cafe b) coffee c) cute cafe girls
Apr 06 07:34:35 <rtm> doc: WHo's your service provider?
Apr 06 07:34:44 <mwester> a & b, yes.  Not so much c here...
Apr 06 07:34:46 <doc|home> rtm: fido.ca
Apr 06 07:34:56 <doc|home> mwester: you need to try different cafes :)
Apr 06 07:38:01 <bernt> Can somebody help me with qemu-neo1973? I have changed the scripts for gta02, but the openmoko/flash.sh does not work. Giving much errors like "s3c_nand_read: Bad register 0x20"
Apr 06 07:50:37 <SpeedEvil> no
Apr 06 07:50:39 <SpeedEvil> oops
Apr 06 07:55:15 * ScaredyCat slaps dircproxy
Apr 06 07:55:26 <josch> ScaredyCat, you use dircproxy?
Apr 06 07:55:38 <ScaredyCat> yes
Apr 06 07:55:54 <ScaredyCat> v useful
Apr 06 07:56:26 <josch> is there an easy howto how i can configure it? i expected it running as an /etc/init.d script with a conf in /etc but nothing...
Apr 06 07:56:54 <ScaredyCat> errm , yeah 1 sec 
Apr 06 07:57:03 <josch> thx!
Apr 06 07:57:40 <kaoul> hello
Apr 06 07:59:53 <kaoul> I'm trying to run GTA02 with MokoMakefile. I already have GTA01 running but I don't understand how to "patch the kernel" to have GTA02 running. In advance, thank you very much.
Apr 06 08:01:08 <josch> kaoul, if you use the makefile everything is done automagically for you
Apr 06 08:01:16 <josch> this includes patching and compiling kernel
Apr 06 08:02:02 <kaoul> Oh nice, I didn't understand that so, I just have to replace -M gta01 with -M gta02fake in the Makefile .PHONY: run-qemu subsection ?
Apr 06 08:03:05 <ScaredyCat> gah! can't find the doc I used josch - but it's trivial once you 'get it'
Apr 06 08:03:19 <josch> hehe
Apr 06 08:03:27 <josch> how did you set it up?
Apr 06 08:03:30 <josch> using inetd?
Apr 06 08:04:06 <ScaredyCat> no I run as a user
Apr 06 08:05:57 <ScaredyCat> I can't imagine it's too hard though... I'v just never bothered...
Apr 06 08:06:50 <kaoul> josch: Thanks for your answer, I replaced gta01 with gta02fake and QEMU have "freezed" at slapscreen "Please wait" with message "modem_gsm_ops: SMS number 20 requested" 10 minutes ago, is this normal ?
Apr 06 08:07:02 <kaoul> *splashscreen
Apr 06 08:07:28 <josch> dont know - my qemu times are nearly a year back now
Apr 06 08:07:49 <kaoul> ok thanks
Apr 06 08:09:42 * ScaredyCat finds a bug in dircproxy
Apr 06 08:10:08 <josch> ScaredyCat should report this bug in the dircproxy trac
Apr 06 08:10:31 <ScaredyCat> I need to debug it a bit more first
Apr 06 08:21:21 <ScaredyCat> josch: there should be a README.inetd 
Apr 06 08:21:26 <kaoul> How do I get another keyboard than qwerty in Qemu ?
Apr 06 08:30:50 <ScaredyCat> ..
Apr 06 08:34:32 <rtm> Will the glamo chip in the Freerunner be useful for anything besides video playback?
Apr 06 08:34:53 <CM> if even that..
Apr 06 08:35:01 <CM> Seems like a crappy chip
Apr 06 08:35:50 <rtm> I can't tell if the chip is crappy, because the manufacturer doesn't seem to have seen fit to put any real information on the net.
Apr 06 08:38:19 <rtm> CM: How do you know it's a crappy chip?
Apr 06 08:43:50 <SpeedEvil> rtm: Put it this way - the person writing the driver has said that without it - most things would be faster.
Apr 06 08:44:05 <SpeedEvil> Some video playback may be the exception.
Apr 06 08:44:22 <SpeedEvil> The problem is that the video bus is a whole blazing 6 megabytes/second.
Apr 06 08:45:11 <CM> rtm: As SpeedEvil said, raster said it's not really a vga chip, and not built for that either
Apr 06 08:45:34 <SpeedEvil> It can just about do VGA.
Apr 06 08:45:37 <CM> It's a shame, but I guess that's the price you have to pay for things to be truly open
Apr 06 08:45:51 <SpeedEvil> In the same way that most geeks can just about run the 6 minute mile.
Apr 06 08:45:57 <CM> Hehe
Apr 06 08:46:28 <ScaredyCat> what? you want me to go  outside....
Apr 06 08:46:31 <ScaredyCat> .. and run...
Apr 06 08:46:33 <ScaredyCat> wtf..
Apr 06 08:46:52 * ScaredyCat orders another pizza ;)
Apr 06 08:47:42 <rtm> Is it likely that all hardware on Openmoko phones will always be a bit obsolete because manufacturers will not allow opensource software to be developed for their sexiest chips?
Apr 06 08:49:10 <SpeedEvil> In some ways, yes.
Apr 06 08:49:22 <SpeedEvil> However, note that the glamo does _not_ have open docs.
Apr 06 08:49:33 <SpeedEvil> Which is why raster is all alone working on it.
Apr 06 08:49:47 <SpeedEvil> (well - maybe not alone - but noone outside OM can)
Apr 06 08:49:59 <ScaredyCat> although, he's probably th best person to do that...
Apr 06 08:55:03 <Kero> trucknumber hopefully >1
Apr 06 08:55:31 <cb22> SpeedEvil: and the fun part, that 7mb/s bus is shared with your sd card!
Apr 06 08:56:52 <SpeedEvil> That too.
Apr 06 09:01:30 <Hopscotch> good morning
Apr 06 09:03:30 <ccfly> morning :)
Apr 06 09:36:36 <kaoul> I don't find information about ssh, it seems to not responding when I do "ssh root@192.168.68.2" but I ping 192.168.68.2. Is it normal that there is no sshd process on the GTA ?
Apr 06 09:37:43 <SpeedEvil> ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.200
Apr 06 09:37:50 <SpeedEvil> route add 192.168.0.202 usb0
Apr 06 09:37:55 <SpeedEvil> ssh 192.168.0.202
Apr 06 09:37:57 <SpeedEvil> and it should work
Apr 06 09:41:55 <rtm> Also, you may find that the ssh bundled with the standard rootfs does not have all the functionality you want.   For example, it will not forward X11 displays.   There are instructions on how to install a full-function sshd at rwhitby.net .
Apr 06 09:45:24 <mbuf> rtm, ssh -X allows you to forward X11 displays
Apr 06 09:45:25 <SpeedEvil> Just DISPLAY=host:0 and it works though
Apr 06 09:46:12 <rtm> When I tried that with dropbear ssh, it did not work.   It did when I installed openssh.
Apr 06 09:46:28 <ScaredyCat> you can install openssh from my repo if you want that
Apr 06 09:47:35 <rtm> Yes, I have installed openssh, and it works like a champ.   But I was never able to get the dropbear verison to forward X11.
Apr 06 09:47:54 <ScaredyCat> iirc dropbear wont use keys on outbound connections....
Apr 06 09:51:57 <kaoul> Yes I just see that is a dropbear implementation and not an openssh, curious... And I just see that ssh runs well on the openmoko to the openmoko so it could be a route problem as you said
Apr 06 09:53:51 <SpeedEvil> also - that's not the default address
Apr 06 09:54:11 <SpeedEvil> Are you sure you're simply not pinging your local usb-net interface?
Apr 06 09:54:42 <kaoul> I'm not sure but it's not usb, it's Qemu and ppp over tty
Apr 06 09:55:05 <kaoul> And the moko ping my real machine so...
Apr 06 09:55:32 <kaoul> :/ I already have :
Apr 06 09:55:32 <kaoul> Destination     Passerelle      Genmask         Indic Metric Ref    Use Iface192.168.68.2    *               255.255.255.255 UH    0      0        0 ppp0
Apr 06 09:55:59 <kaoul> Maybe the route on the moko ?
Apr 06 09:56:26 <kaoul> No, it's okay too. I don't understand
Apr 06 09:59:03 <kaoul> SpeedEvil: Is there something like a firewall on the GTA which could make things wrong like that ?
Apr 06 09:59:27 <SpeedEvil> Are you trying to talk to it over USB?
Apr 06 09:59:44 <kaoul> no, over tty
Apr 06 09:59:58 <SpeedEvil> why?
Apr 06 10:00:02 <kaoul> it's ppp0 on my computer and ppp0 on the moko
Apr 06 10:00:13 <kaoul> Because it's the only thing I've found on the wiki
Apr 06 10:00:14 <SpeedEvil> why not use usb-net?
Apr 06 10:00:31 <kaoul> because it's a qemu openmoko and I have no phone :)
Apr 06 10:00:38 <SpeedEvil> Ah
Apr 06 10:00:53 <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I have no idea about qemu.
Apr 06 10:01:06 <kaoul> SpeedEvil: Sorry I'm juste begining to try making a helloworld
Apr 06 10:02:43 <kaoul> SpeedEvil: If it whas on usb, would you have any idea ? Because it seems to be the same
Apr 06 10:02:55 <SpeedEvil> For usb0 you just do the above commands
Apr 06 10:03:01 <kaoul> ok
Apr 06 10:11:49 <Cap_J_L_Picard>  warning: libssp.so.0, needed by /usr/src/moko/build/tmp/staging/arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi/usr/lib/libavahi-glib.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)
Apr 06 10:12:02 <Cap_J_L_Picard> from mokomakefile?
Apr 06 10:13:22 <ScaredyCat> yes
Apr 06 10:13:55 <Cap_J_L_Picard> then it fails...
Apr 06 10:14:00 <ScaredyCat> oh-puzzles don;t work either brcause of that..
Apr 06 10:14:10 * ScaredyCat has reported it as a bug
Apr 06 10:14:35 <ccfly> <rtm> Also, you may find that the ssh bundled with the standard rootfs does not have all the functionality you want.   For example, it will not forward X11 displays.   There are instructions on how to install a full-function sshd at rwhitby.net .
Apr 06 10:14:44 <ccfly> Works with default rootfs
Apr 06 10:17:37 <SpeedEvil> Now - Radio4 - Bletchley park - WWII codebreaking
Apr 06 10:20:45 <SpeedEvil> Includign interviews with those who took part.
Apr 06 10:29:40 <cb22> is using two psus to power one pc bad? i have one running my motherboard, and 2x hdds, and another one running 6x hdds
Apr 06 10:29:55 <SpeedEvil> Nope.
Apr 06 10:30:01 <SpeedEvil> As long as you have shared grounds.
Apr 06 10:30:13 <SpeedEvil> If they are both bolted to a case, it'll be fine.
Apr 06 10:30:29 <CoreDump> cb22: nah, that's fine. The shared ground thing is kinda important tho
Apr 06 10:30:35 <kaoul> Is anybody know why I can't ping my real pc from my virtual GTA01 and my virtual GTA01 from my real pc and no application (ssh and  webserver tried) works ?
Apr 06 10:30:45 <kaoul> *I can ping (sorry)
Apr 06 10:30:46 <cb22> yeah, both are fixed to the case, thanks SpeedEvil and CoreDump 
Apr 06 10:31:58 <CoreDump> kaoul: could be an active packet filter on your box
Apr 06 10:33:02 <kaoul> CoreDump: If you speak about my pc, yes it's what is thougth, but I have no firewall (or something on mandriva I don't know the existense)
Apr 06 10:33:10 <Cap_J_L_Picard> ScaredyCat: Shall I add to the report that libsvahi also needs it?
Apr 06 10:33:31 <ScaredyCat> yes.. might be a good move
Apr 06 10:33:38 <CoreDump> kaoul: AFAIK mandriva ships with a default "firewall"
Apr 06 10:34:01 <ScaredyCat> iirc mickey|zzZZzz said that it was a deliberate removal, so I guess we need it back :)
Apr 06 10:34:06 <kaoul> CoreDump: Yes thank you but I disabled this one...
Apr 06 10:34:12 <Cap_J_L_Picard> ScaredyCat: yeah
Apr 06 10:34:21 <Cap_J_L_Picard> ScaredyCat: when so much requires it...
Apr 06 10:34:44 <CoreDump> kaoul: please pastebin the output of "iptables -Lv"
Apr 06 10:35:31 <ScaredyCat> Cap_J_L_Picard: dunno... does seem odd... but hey.. 
Apr 06 10:36:05 <kaoul> CoreDump: iptables: No chain/target/match by that name
Apr 06 10:36:14 <Cap_J_L_Picard> ScaredyCat: There is probably an ./configure --disable-... parameter to fix this...
Apr 06 10:36:27 <Cap_J_L_Picard> if I put it in right bb file
Apr 06 10:36:41 <CoreDump> kaoul: "iptables -vL" ssorry
Apr 06 10:36:57 <Cap_J_L_Picard> but wouldn't help with packages that have it as a core dependency...
Apr 06 10:39:43 <kaoul> CoreDump: Seems to be anything http://pastebin.com/d7f035bda
Apr 06 10:40:23 <CoreDump> kaoul: right, was worth a try tho
Apr 06 10:41:02 <kaoul> CoreDump: And I set some "obscur security tools" of mandriva to "Very bad security" so It not seem to be a security problem (on my pc)
Apr 06 10:41:42 <kaoul> CoreDump: My route seems okay too, I don't understand
Apr 06 10:42:11 <CoreDump> if you can ping but can't reach any ports that is strange indeed
Apr 06 10:42:34 <CoreDump> ahem
Apr 06 10:42:47 <kaoul> CoreDump: note that nmap freeze (like ssh) and on openmoko I have a blanc page when i browse my pc apache server
Apr 06 10:42:59 <CoreDump> is it possible that some "downed" interface has the same IP than the neo?
Apr 06 10:43:06 <kaoul> i don't understand ahem
Apr 06 10:43:29 <CoreDump> ifconfig -a would tell
Apr 06 10:43:38 <kaoul> i already change to IP from 192.168.68.2 to 10.0.0.2
Apr 06 10:44:54 <kaoul> so it's very strange
Apr 06 10:46:04 <kaoul> CoreDump: http://pastebin.com/d5d998a67
Apr 06 10:47:14 <kaoul> CoreDump: there is no packet filter or firewall on openmoko isn't it ?
Apr 06 10:48:05 <CoreDump> not to my knowledge, no
Apr 06 10:48:12 * CoreDump isout of ideads
Apr 06 10:48:15 <CoreDump> *ideas
Apr 06 10:49:42 <Cap_J_L_Picard> It could be the very bad mandriva security settings
Apr 06 10:49:54 <cb22> abraxa_: are there screenshots of your mediaplayer up somewhere? i cant seem to find them...
Apr 06 10:50:05 <kaoul> no i already change this from "high" to "very bad"
Apr 06 10:52:01 <Cap_J_L_Picard> Pastebin has errors, not dropped packets...
Apr 06 10:52:34 <kaoul> yes I saw that but I don't know what is it
Apr 06 10:53:21 <kaoul> hey I know what is it now : it's my failed tentatives with ssh root@10.0.0.2 :(
Apr 06 10:55:42 <kaoul> is there someone who tried openmoko on Qemu like me ?
Apr 06 10:56:26 <Cap_J_L_Picard> kaoul: Ages ago...
Apr 06 10:56:56 <Cap_J_L_Picard> I'm soon about to try again, however have a slight glitch building the devel image.
Apr 06 10:57:38 <kaoul> Cap_J_L_Picard: I don't know exactly what I do, I use MokoMakefile
Apr 06 10:58:26 <kaoul> Cap_J_L_Picard: with mokomakefile ?
Apr 06 10:58:38 <Cap_J_L_Picard> kaoul: yes
Apr 06 10:58:43 <kaoul> ah
Apr 06 10:58:49 <kaoul> Cap_J_L_Picard: did you tried the ssh... ages age ?
Apr 06 10:58:51 <kaoul> *ago
Apr 06 10:58:59 <Cap_J_L_Picard> kaoul: make openmoko-devel-image not working...
Apr 06 10:59:38 <Cap_J_L_Picard> kaoul: urm, yes, but it was largely incompatible between kernels back then...
Apr 06 11:00:29 <thos>  /away
Apr 06 11:00:33 <thos> hah
Apr 06 11:00:38 <kaoul> Cap_J_L_Picard: Could I help you by sending you my qemu image ?
Apr 06 11:00:44 <kaoul> Cap_J_L_Picard: (340 mo)
Apr 06 11:02:01 <Cap_J_L_Picard> kaoul: urm...
Apr 06 11:02:17 <Cap_J_L_Picard> kaoul: slow net, why it so big?
Apr 06 11:02:43 <kaoul> I don't know, do you need a special file to get ready ?
Apr 06 11:03:08 <kaoul> Cap_J_L_Picard: Don't foreget i'm a newbie
Apr 06 11:18:58 <CIA-41> freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r143 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/ (TODO modules/idlenotifier.py): py-odeviced: update TODO
Apr 06 11:28:40 <abraxa_> summatusmentis: Yeah, here now. What's up?
Apr 06 11:30:27 <abraxa_> cb: http://abraxa.dyndns.org:81/random/37946ff00398eee25523b18ede73c772.png is one - there were more on scap but they fell out of the listing
Apr 06 11:30:36 <abraxa_> cb22, I mean
Apr 06 11:31:07 <univac> nice song ;]
Apr 06 11:31:53 <abraxa_> hehe
Apr 06 11:32:06 <mickeyl> one of the best OM programs
Apr 06 11:32:10 <mickeyl> "it just works"
Apr 06 11:32:37 * ScaredyCat points mickeyl at the irc logs...
Apr 06 11:32:39 <ScaredyCat> :(
Apr 06 11:32:51 <mickeyl> ssp?
Apr 06 11:32:56 <ScaredyCat> no...
Apr 06 11:33:12 <ScaredyCat> abraxa_ is not working on that app anymore :'(
Apr 06 11:33:19 <mickeyl> oh
Apr 06 11:33:22 <mickeyl> well
Apr 06 11:33:34 <mickeyl> that's not too bad
Apr 06 11:33:40 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: Only until I have time for the EFL rewrite ;)
Apr 06 11:33:50 <mickeyl> just what i was about to say
Apr 06 11:33:51 <mickeyl> :D
Apr 06 11:33:56 <abraxa_> hehe
Apr 06 11:34:17 <ScaredyCat> well, yes.. but then... we'll be expected to rung the efl stuff without it... wont we ...
Apr 06 11:34:46 <abraxa_> rung?
Apr 06 11:34:52 <ScaredyCat> run
Apr 06 11:34:55 <ScaredyCat> + g
Apr 06 11:34:58 <ScaredyCat> :P
Apr 06 11:35:18 <abraxa_> "we'll be to expected to run the efl stuff without [the media player]"?
Apr 06 11:35:26 <ScaredyCat> yes
Apr 06 11:35:47 <ScaredyCat> you must be spending too much time killing kittens... 
Apr 06 11:35:48 <abraxa_> Until it's written, you mean? *looks confused*
Apr 06 11:35:49 <ScaredyCat> ;)
Apr 06 11:35:54 <abraxa_> rofl.
Apr 06 11:36:00 <abraxa_> ;)
Apr 06 11:37:12 <abraxa_> Well, I honestly didn't understand what you meant with that statement before - I blame the time
Apr 06 11:37:21 <abraxa_> (UTC+1)
Apr 06 11:37:46 <ScaredyCat> 13:36 and you're still sleept?
Apr 06 11:37:46 <saurabh1403> hello
Apr 06 11:37:48 <ScaredyCat> sleepy?
Apr 06 11:38:13 <abraxa_> It was 1337 here for me at the time of the writing
Apr 06 11:38:21 <abraxa_> I'm not leet enough :)
Apr 06 11:38:23 <ScaredyCat> oh... 
Apr 06 11:38:43 <ScaredyCat> UTC+1+ 35 then ;)
Apr 06 11:38:54 <ScaredyCat> 35s
Apr 06 11:38:58 <abraxa_> lol
Apr 06 11:40:00 <ScaredyCat> what I meant was, unless you write it prior to the efl builds, we wont have one until you do..
Apr 06 11:42:31 <abraxa_> Oh
Apr 06 11:43:00 <abraxa_> Well... that should be no big problem
Apr 06 11:43:49 <saurabh1403> Hello everyone, 
Apr 06 11:43:51 <abraxa_> The EFL build won't be done anytime soon anyway and I'll start with the player once the PIM infrastructure is usable enough to allow GUI developers to start
Apr 06 11:44:05 <saurabh1403> i am a student aspirant for GSoC open moko development
Apr 06 11:44:09 <abraxa_> From that point on I'll continue on PIM but start on the media player as well
Apr 06 11:44:18 <abraxa_> Hello saurabh1403 
Apr 06 11:44:34 <SpeedEvil> saurabh1403: considering what?
Apr 06 11:44:36 <saurabh1403> i have submitted my application for GPS or AGPS interfacing with open moko phones.
Apr 06 11:45:08 <emdete> saurabh1403: what is this?
Apr 06 11:45:26 <saurabh1403> i am planning to build applications using GPS data like Location based reminders,Community based traffic information,Intimation of popular places which are pre fed in the phone for corresponding locations etc
Apr 06 11:45:58 <saurabh1403> Distance Calculation using GPS, Rescue purposes and emergency calls and many more attractive feaures can be added
Apr 06 11:46:07 <emdete> saurabh1403: so what special agps thing did you mean?
Apr 06 11:46:12 <SpeedEvil> have you looked at catefory:gps on the wiki?
Apr 06 11:46:38 <saurabh1403> i have seen the GPS wiki page of open moko
Apr 06 11:46:51 <SpeedEvil> All the pages on the GPS category?
Apr 06 11:46:54 <saurabh1403> i went through the wish list and i have my own ideas
Apr 06 11:47:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1319 has been created by mickey(AT)openmoko.org
Apr 06 11:47:02 <cdbot2> * * sysfs RTC class device missing wakealarm capability
Apr 06 11:47:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1319
Apr 06 11:47:39 <saurabh1403> yes, quite some pages which are present in the open moko wiki
Apr 06 11:48:07 <saurabh1403> i want to implement these applications in open moko platform 
Apr 06 11:48:23 <SpeedEvil> Looked at the openstreetmap related ones?
Apr 06 11:48:38 <zedstar> saurabhl403 i recommend reading up on dbus
Apr 06 11:50:41 <saurabh1403> i did see something on dbus , but will it be a more versatile project at this summer. i want to know the views of the mentors so that i can proceed in that direction.
Apr 06 11:51:39 <zedstar> there are quite a few dbus projects already so i would start by looking at what is missing or how to integrate them
Apr 06 11:52:04 <mickeyl> this project sounds like basing on geoclue and OSM would be a good idea
Apr 06 11:53:35 <zedstar> if u interested in distance calculating for example i have done a dbus server for that....there dbus daemons for getting location etc
Apr 06 11:54:06 <saurabh1403> ok if this is the case then i have no problem in going for dbus interfacing. i also read about the mail on open moko list from john
Apr 06 11:54:06 <zedstar> geoclue as mickeyl says
Apr 06 11:54:28 <zedstar> yeh that is me saurabhl
Apr 06 11:55:28 <saurabh1403> ok, so can u please tell me in some details on how to go for it..i think i will generate interest in it 
Apr 06 11:55:50 <zedstar> as i say first have a look at dbus and see if u can write clients
Apr 06 11:56:02 <zedstar> also have a look what is done
Apr 06 11:56:47 <saurabh1403> ok, and can i know what is the programming language for writing cliets
Apr 06 11:57:19 <zedstar> what languages do u know?
Apr 06 11:57:49 <saurabh1403> assembly, C, C++, python,VHDL,etc
Apr 06 11:58:06 <SpeedEvil> There IS NO FPGA!
Apr 06 11:58:08 <SpeedEvil> :)
Apr 06 11:59:23 <saurabh1403> ya i know but it is given in the hardware wishlist about the FPGA interfacing also. like interfacing with spartan -3AN from xilinx
Apr 06 11:59:33 <zedstar> saurabhl well C or python seem popular
Apr 06 11:59:34 <SpeedEvil> Unlikely to happen ever.
Apr 06 11:59:42 <SpeedEvil> IMO.
Apr 06 11:59:53 <saurabh1403> ok sir
Apr 06 11:59:55 <saurabh1403> thank you
Apr 06 12:00:44 <zedstar> saurabh if u want to try some client stuff out just let me know and i could probably assist......i not a mentor though so u that is something else u need to find
Apr 06 12:01:27 <saurabh1403> ok
Apr 06 12:02:30 <zedstar> arent the applications due in very soon?
Apr 06 12:04:06 <mickeyl> yes, in a couple of hours
Apr 06 12:04:55 <CIA-41> freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r144 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (Makefile pyneod.ini pypppd.py): 
Apr 06 12:04:55 <CIA-41> freesmartphone.org: simplify connect/disconnect scripts
Apr 06 12:04:55 <CIA-41> freesmartphone.org: initialize secret files for pppd's chap/pap
Apr 06 12:05:45 <saurabh1403> may i know that is there any mentor interested in GPS interfacing or Dbus one.  
Apr 06 12:06:07 <zedstar> i imagine a few people submitting in these areas
Apr 06 12:06:10 <saurabh1403> i think i have a lot of plans and interest in that field
Apr 06 12:06:44 <emdete> saurabh1403: everyone has :D
Apr 06 12:06:57 <saurabh1403> oh yes..
Apr 06 12:07:04 <zedstar> a lot of the GPS ideas go round in circles
Apr 06 12:07:28 <zedstar> same things cropping up all the time
Apr 06 12:09:26 <saurabh1403> ya, i can see that. also i didn't apply for accelerometer interfacing after reading Micheal M mail that they have already many applications on that. but i want to know about any other special requirement for GPS bcoz i have done projects in GPS interfacing and it matches my interest also
Apr 06 12:10:06 <zedstar> i think what is important to examine all the ways of getting location eg not just from a GPS....hence geoclue
Apr 06 12:10:30 <saurabh1403> ok
Apr 06 12:10:39 <zedstar> GPS just does not work how much people think when they post their ideas
Apr 06 12:13:40 <zedstar> if u wanna stand out in the street and look at a map fine...if u want something more pervasive u gonna need to be a bit more creative
Apr 06 12:14:44 * Tronic_ is quite happy on how well the GPS works.
Apr 06 12:16:33 <zedstar> tronic im not saying the GPS does not work
Apr 06 12:16:48 <zedstar> infact it is pretty nice in the Neo
Apr 06 12:17:01 <zedstar> my N810 takes ages to fix in comparison
Apr 06 12:17:06 <saurabh1403> ok
Apr 06 12:17:28 <zedstar> try leaving your GPS on 10 hours and inside buildings
Apr 06 12:17:29 <mickeyl> (actually, gsoc deadline is in 36h)
Apr 06 12:17:33 * mickeyl waves to abraxa_ 
Apr 06 12:17:37 <abraxa_> lol
Apr 06 12:18:16 <Tronic_> zedstar: GPS usually does not work at all indoors, but so what? What am I gonne use it there for, indoor navigation?
Apr 06 12:18:39 <Tronic_> It can remember the last known position, right outside the building.
Apr 06 12:19:47 <zedstar> tronic well that model is still not very practical for general use for these pervasive apps
Apr 06 12:21:19 <zedstar> but my all means implement that it would be interesting
Apr 06 12:23:08 <CIA-41> freesmartphone.org: 03mickeyl * r145 10/trunk/software/py-odeviced/modules/ (idlenotifier.py kernel26.py powercontrol-neo.py): py-odeviced: add basic RTC support to kernel26 plugin
Apr 06 12:25:59 <zedstar> would u just leave the gps running when u go inside the building?
Apr 06 12:28:10 * CoreDump believes that would be a waste of battery 95% of the time
Apr 06 12:28:27 <Tronic_> I usually have my GPS on 24/7.
Apr 06 12:28:27 * zedstar believes so also
Apr 06 12:28:48 <Tronic_> Mostly because it uses very little power and partly also because the power button is difficult to press.
Apr 06 12:28:48 <madwoota> why would you need gps 24/7?
Apr 06 12:29:06 <Tronic_> (got the Nokia GPS dongle, not Neo)
Apr 06 12:29:36 <abraxa_> zedstar: That's where the accelerometers come into play. When the Neo notices that it is moved it can have the GPS check for a position change
Apr 06 12:30:07 <zedstar> abraxa: ok this is what i am getting at
Apr 06 12:30:21 <zedstar> need to know when to turn back on
Apr 06 12:30:27 <Tronic_> abraxa_: But I keep my phone in the pocket all the time, so it is moving all the time...
Apr 06 12:30:38 <Tronic_> ... except when it is sitting on a table, attached to the charger.
Apr 06 12:31:42 <Tronic_> Btw, how much power does the accelerometer and its software (the one that monitors it and turns on the GPS) use, then?
Apr 06 12:31:44 <abraxa_> Tronic_: Guess that means it'll also have to check periodically then
Apr 06 12:32:27 <zedstar> the point i was kinda making was we need some creative ideas not just "I have GPS"
Apr 06 12:32:42 <zedstar> so hopefully some GSOC did this
Apr 06 12:33:15 <Tronic_> IMO what we need now is a working implementation of what Nokia already does well, instead of any creative new ideas.
Apr 06 12:33:31 <abraxa_> Tronic_: What is it that Nokia does well?
Apr 06 12:35:33 <Tronic_> abraxa_: A phone (phonebook w/ voice control, text messages w/ T9, generally a good UI, multitasking), a music player (with OggPlay), a web browser (yes, it is fairly good) and navigation (Nokia Maps is by far the best navigation application that I have seen).
Apr 06 12:35:52 * zedstar sighs
Apr 06 12:36:05 <abraxa_> Ah, you mean a smartphone stack+apps in general
Apr 06 12:36:12 <abraxa_> I thought you meant GPS-related stuff
Apr 06 12:36:28 <Tronic_> In general, yes. It is OpenMoko development that we are talking, right?
Apr 06 12:36:39 <Tronic_> Anyway, navigation is a part of that now (Nokia Maps!).
Apr 06 12:38:20 <Tronic_> Google Earth style zooming and panning with effective LOD (so that it can run a phone without getting too slow). Finding placenames by just typing on the map screen (instead of having to use some menu). Good route finding algorithm.
Apr 06 12:38:40 <Tronic_> You know, all those little UI details that are needed for it to be useful.
Apr 06 12:39:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1320 has been created by fr-om(AT)tourde.org
Apr 06 12:39:02 <cdbot2> * * filename wildcard error on env file for rootfs
Apr 06 12:39:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1320
Apr 06 12:39:21 <abraxa_> Tronic_: Any idea what card material Nokia Maps uses and if they pay license fees?
Apr 06 12:39:24 <Kero> *UI* details?
Apr 06 12:39:45 <Kero> they're details throughout the entire stack, I think.
Apr 06 12:39:51 <Tronic_> Kero: Yes, like being able to type the placenames, and having smooth transitions.
Apr 06 12:40:24 <zedstar> on the N810 nokia bundle wayfinder which u need to pay for direction type navigation.....it is nice but way to expensive IMO
Apr 06 12:40:26 <Kero> ok, things like that are only/mostly in the ui
Apr 06 12:40:38 <Tronic_> abraxa_: They use the same that pretty much everybody else, too (can't remember the name, but I can look it up if you want).
Apr 06 12:41:54 <Tronic_> abraxa_: While the software itself is free, the navigation features is subscription-based (and easy to pay for directly from the application).
Apr 06 12:43:46 <Tronic_> zedstar: Not that expensive, actually. I think I could easily save it back in saved gas and especially in saved time (at least now when I just moved to a large city that I am not quite familiar with).
Apr 06 12:44:30 <zedstar> well subscription is greedy IMO... nokia could subsidise the application on the device when u buy it with one off cost
Apr 06 12:45:30 <zedstar> but if there is a market for it well fair enough
Apr 06 12:46:32 <Tronic_> zedstar: Pay for use is better, IMO.
Apr 06 12:48:10 <zedstar> i used to have tomtom on my palm and that did a similar job with a one off cost
Apr 06 12:48:39 <zedstar> i think u shud pay the american military for GPS use while u are at it
Apr 06 12:52:54 <Tronic_> zedstar: Well, EU is on a good pace heading for commercializing the position data (the Galileo project).
Apr 06 12:53:49 <zedstar> tronic something else for u to subscribe to ;)
Apr 06 12:54:03 <Cap_J_L_Picard> Tronic_: if they ever get enough sats up there.
Apr 06 12:54:04 <Tronic_> zedstar: Sure, they promise to deliver free access (with less precision and reliability than in the commercial service), but if there were no free alternative (GPS), do you think they would?
Apr 06 12:54:45 <Tronic_> Well, in general I don't have a problem with paying for services that I use.
Apr 06 12:54:52 <Tronic_> Unlike many others seem to have...
Apr 06 12:55:30 <Tronic_> I do have a problem with paying significant amounts for services that I don't use and that don't benefit me (indirectly at least).
Apr 06 12:58:09 <Tronic_> E.g. if there were a good OSM navigation app, I would not want to pay for the Nokia Maps app when buying the N95, if I wouldn't actually use it.
Apr 06 12:58:46 <Tronic_> On my area the OSM map data is already better than the commercial one used by others.
Apr 06 13:06:49 <abraxa_> Tronic_: " I do have a problem with paying significant amounts for services that I don't use and that don't benefit me" - Windows on retail laptops, for example ;)
Apr 06 13:15:36 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Apr 06 13:15:43 * SpeedEvil hates that.
Apr 06 13:21:44 <Tronic_> abraxa_: Definitely. And I have to pay even more to get the same laptop without Windows.
Apr 06 13:28:06 <CIA-41> openmoko: 03andrew * r4311 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/ (download.sh env): Accept OpenMoko or Openmoko or whatever the case du jour in filenames.
Apr 06 14:08:19 <kaoul> Does anybody use Qemu openmoko not in qwerty ?
Apr 06 14:24:06 <SpeedEvil> Anyone done the A2DP thing with bluetooth headphones?
Apr 06 14:27:12 <mwester> I tried, but it was a long time ago (and didnt' work)
Apr 06 14:27:49 <SpeedEvil> What's the general idea - something fakes an alsa device?
Apr 06 14:32:49 <kaoul> For information : I just spend many hours to find why I can't ssh between linux and openmoko on qemu by ppp. It was that the compression protocol negociation failed ! Just add "noccp" to pppd on openmoko and your linux machine, it works !
Apr 06 14:35:37 <abraxa_> kaoul: Add it to the wiki at an appropriate place, please :)
Apr 06 14:35:52 <kaoul> abraxa_: I'm registring right now ;-)
Apr 06 14:36:01 <abraxa_> Thanks!
Apr 06 15:15:08 <dassouki> hey everyone, what are the alternative linux/os i can put on my hp PDA. all i want is to access the Internet, skype, and some form of an imap email client.
Apr 06 15:17:07 <SpeedEvil> Skype is a killer.
Apr 06 15:17:18 <SpeedEvil> Skype only release binaries, not source.
Apr 06 15:17:29 <abraxa_> Skype is still x86 only, right?
Apr 06 15:17:41 <dassouki> um skype runs on my wm5
Apr 06 15:17:44 <SpeedEvil> I think they've released for a very limted number of other platforms
Apr 06 15:17:50 <CVirus> dassouki: wm5 ?
Apr 06 15:17:52 <SpeedEvil> but it's derfinately binary only
Apr 06 15:17:55 <dassouki> windows mobile 5
Apr 06 15:18:00 <CVirus> dassouki: you're an arab ?
Apr 06 15:18:02 <abraxa_> WinMobile
Apr 06 15:18:09 <SpeedEvil> So, won't run on most platforms unless you put it in qemu.
Apr 06 15:18:11 <SpeedEvil> :)
Apr 06 15:18:14 <dassouki> CVirus, ya but what does that have to do with the convo ?
Apr 06 15:18:23 <CVirus> dassouki: your nickname sounds arab
Apr 06 15:18:24 <SpeedEvil> Or qemu+wine
Apr 06 15:18:26 <CVirus> dassouki: where are you from ?
Apr 06 15:18:45 <CVirus> dassouki: enta meneen ?
Apr 06 15:18:52 <dassouki> CVirus, canada ... i'd like to stay on topic :D 
Apr 06 15:19:40 <dassouki> so in other words i'm better off sticking to my windows mobile for now?
Apr 06 15:19:53 <SpeedEvil> Well - only you can answer that.
Apr 06 15:20:00 <zedstar> the nokia tablet skype client is ok
Apr 06 15:20:10 <SpeedEvil> But skype has chosen not to release their program for other architectures.
Apr 06 15:20:25 <CVirus> are we getting a SIP phone for OM ?
Apr 06 15:20:27 <zedstar> so does run on ARM but no source of course
Apr 06 15:20:55 <CVirus> dassouki: I wonder from what country are you originally from ?
Apr 06 15:21:23 <dassouki> CVirus, lebanon
Apr 06 15:21:30 <CVirus> dassouki: ana masry :-)
Apr 06 15:21:35 <CVirus> dassouki: pleased to meet you
Apr 06 15:21:40 <dassouki> nice too meet u too...
Apr 06 15:21:59 <dassouki> zedstar, i'm happy with a sourceless working skype on linux
Apr 06 15:22:34 <CVirus> what protocol does skype use ?
Apr 06 15:22:46 <zedstar> dassouki the nokia tablet is linux
Apr 06 15:22:57 <CVirus> Maemo that is
Apr 06 15:23:16 <zedstar> proprietary voip i imagine
Apr 06 15:23:22 <CVirus> lame
Apr 06 15:24:45 <zedstar> and there are rumours google gonna buy skype!
Apr 06 15:25:09 <ixian_probe> zedstar: there are always rumors ;)
Apr 06 15:25:49 <zedstar> ixian keeps us chatting :)
Apr 06 15:25:51 <dassouki> maemo only works on nokia though right ?
Apr 06 15:26:03 <dassouki> i'd like for something to work on my hp pda haha
Apr 06 15:27:47 <ixian_probe> zedstar: mhm ^_^
Apr 06 15:27:50 <zedstar> dassouki id imagine maemo only runs on nokia kit as there are closed source components to it
Apr 06 15:27:52 <CVirus> dassouki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPAQ#Alternative_operating_systems_for_the_iPAQ
Apr 06 15:30:23 <dassouki> CVirus,  thanks. zedstar ya it seems that way doesn't it
Apr 06 15:33:51 <dassouki> it seems that development on these alternatives halted around 06/07
Apr 06 15:34:47 <zedstar> it wont solve your skype issue tho anyway
Apr 06 15:37:47 <dassouki> it will be interesting to see if someone has stripped down the OS to just internet explorer, and skype. that'll solve so many resource problems
Apr 06 15:38:17 <CVirus> dassouki: Angstrom is still being maintained as far as I know
Apr 06 15:38:57 <dassouki> ya i noticed that, but my ipaq model is not supported
Apr 06 15:39:03 <CVirus> I see
Apr 06 15:39:57 <dassouki> it is also odd that they don't provide any screen shots, a bit foolish
Apr 06 15:41:15 <CVirus> Opie looks nice http://opie.handhelds.org/gallery/main.php/v/opie10a/ipaq/
Apr 06 15:42:54 <dassouki> CVirus, u think? i don't know, windows mobile is a bit sexier than opie. it would've been nice if tehre were bery/ compiz for linux mobile os
Apr 06 15:43:26 <CVirus> dassouki: did you try OM ?
Apr 06 15:44:05 <dassouki> openmoko? 
Apr 06 15:44:20 <CVirus> yup
Apr 06 15:44:35 <dassouki> i thought it only worked on openmoko hardware
Apr 06 15:44:46 <CVirus> not necessary
Apr 06 15:45:49 <CVirus> port it :-)
Apr 06 15:57:46 <playya> hi
Apr 06 15:58:14 <playya> which is a nice phone to install openmoko on it?
Apr 06 15:58:20 <playya> the HTCs?
Apr 06 16:06:18 <edistar> playya: e.g. blueangel or motorola a780
Apr 06 16:07:08 <playya> ok
Apr 06 16:07:30 <playya> might have a look on the vodafone page if it is cheap enaough for me
Apr 06 16:24:06 <Fradeve> edistar: someone has tested OM on HTC?
Apr 06 16:24:34 <orospakr> so, I'm having an odd problem with my Neo, running an image from a few days ago -- on a call, the other party hears themselves echoed back, but the person on the Neo doesn't notice any echo at all.
Apr 06 16:24:45 <orospakr> Fradeve, yeah, those HTC devices are pretty nice.
Apr 06 16:25:44 <Fradeve> orospakr: exactly on which HTC devices it has been tested?
Apr 06 16:25:51 <orospakr> Fradeve, no idea. :(
Apr 06 16:46:26 <p3t3r__> Fradeve: There is a Openmoko image from january available for HTC Universal... Phone calls and SMS work ;) 
Apr 06 16:51:05 <edistar__> Fradeve: ask dcordes
Apr 06 17:15:12 <Fradeve> thanks p3t3r__ edistar__
Apr 06 17:19:38 <CM> Oh, a life sign from Sean on the planet :)
Apr 06 17:22:15 <edistar__> CM: and really informative it is..
Apr 06 17:24:03 <CM> edistar: Hehe, well, yeah, but at least he's still alive
Apr 06 17:26:17 <edistar> CM: true;) that's something at least
Apr 06 17:28:21 * mjr continues a bit on the diffing proxy thing
Apr 06 17:29:37 * CM stops beating his head against pth and takes a bath instead
Apr 06 17:40:19 <ScaredyCat> about time too CM
Apr 06 17:41:22 * mwester sprays some air freshener into the channel  :P :D
Apr 06 17:41:37 <mickeyl> heh
Apr 06 17:43:56 <mickeyl> how do we want to program an alarm?
Apr 06 17:44:03 <mickeyl> epoch or 9-tuple?
Apr 06 17:44:10 <mickeyl> (via dbus)
Apr 06 17:44:25 <mickeyl> epoch means you need to do the parsing
Apr 06 17:44:44 <mickeyl> 9-tuple lets the dbus service parse
Apr 06 17:46:08 <mickeyl> RealTimeClock.SetAlarmTime( "2008-06-10-09-06-60-11-12-12" ) ?
Apr 06 17:46:24 <mickeyl> abraxa_: epoch or 9-tuple?
Apr 06 17:46:43 <Kero> that'd mean I have to print first...
Apr 06 17:46:47 * mwester tries to decode a 9-tuple...
Apr 06 17:46:57 <abraxa__> mickeyl: * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). :(
Apr 06 17:47:00 <mickeyl> right
Apr 06 17:47:04 <mickeyl> <mickeyl> how do we want to program an alarm?
Apr 06 17:47:04 <mickeyl> <mickeyl> epoch or 9-tuple?
Apr 06 17:47:04 <mickeyl> <mickeyl> (via dbus)
Apr 06 17:47:04 <mickeyl> <mickeyl> epoch means you need to do the parsing
Apr 06 17:47:04 <mickeyl> <mickeyl> 9-tuple lets the dbus service parse
Apr 06 17:47:33 <mickeyl> dbus is all about simplicity, so i favour a 9 tuple (or the stringified equivalent)
Apr 06 17:47:37 <abraxa__> epoch as in... timestamp?
Apr 06 17:47:48 <mickeyl> epoch as in... number of seconds since 1970
Apr 06 17:47:50 <mwester> epoch.  Avoids issues with the native service dealing with parse errors.
Apr 06 17:48:33 <abraxa__> Personally I'd say epoch as well since that makes dealing with timezones and time difference calculation easier
Apr 06 17:48:37 <mwester> Pushes internationalization off to the app, or intermediate layer, where it should be.  (uber-geeks keep time in seconds since the epoch, I'm told :) )
Apr 06 17:48:38 <mickeyl> right. and even the shell can call something like
Apr 06 17:48:46 <mickeyl>  date -d '10pm tuesday' "+%s"
Apr 06 17:48:56 <mickeyl> ok, so it's epoch for now then
Apr 06 17:49:01 <mwester> Math is easier too.
Apr 06 17:49:12 <mwester> (as in "now + 2 hours")
Apr 06 17:49:20 <abraxa__> I think second granularity is enough, what do you think?
Apr 06 17:49:34 * mwester agrees.
Apr 06 17:49:57 <summatusmentis> abraxa_: I pinged you last night and I now have no idea what I wanted
Apr 06 17:49:57 <Kero> for an alarm? minutes would probably do :)
Apr 06 17:50:09 <mickeyl> well, once we use epoch, it's seconds granularity
Apr 06 17:50:14 <Kero> yup
Apr 06 17:50:17 <ScaredyCat> not for my boiled eggs!
Apr 06 17:50:19 <ScaredyCat> :(
Apr 06 17:50:21 <mickeyl> hehehe
Apr 06 17:50:28 <mickeyl> hmm btw.
Apr 06 17:50:34 <mickeyl> when is epoch scheduled to overflow?
Apr 06 17:50:38 <mickeyl> as in... 2**32?
Apr 06 17:50:41 <mwester> 2038, isn't it?
Apr 06 17:50:43 <Kero> mm, my breadmachine rings its alarm
Apr 06 17:50:46 <mickeyl> right, 2038
Apr 06 17:50:49 <ScaredyCat> 38 iirc
Apr 06 17:50:51 <Kero> 2**31
Apr 06 17:51:00 <mickeyl> ok, so that would make this interface last for 30 years
Apr 06 17:51:02 <mickeyl> fair enough
Apr 06 17:51:36 <ScaredyCat> well, that's not an excuse... 
Apr 06 17:51:52 <abraxa__> Can't we use int64?
Apr 06 17:52:00 <ScaredyCat> I want to be able to do use it in 30 years too :)
Apr 06 17:52:35 * ScaredyCat puts the oven on ... 
Apr 06 17:52:42 <Blastur> hows the PVT tests going
Apr 06 17:55:19 <summatusmentis> mickeyl: don't mean to be annoying, but will you look at my GSoC app?
Apr 06 17:55:20 <Kero> Neo v8 in 2024 will have 64bits architecture :)
Apr 06 17:58:28 <Tanu> and 8gig of ram... Oo
Apr 06 17:59:32 <mickeyl> probably not before the voting starts. i think we have enough information to judge
Apr 06 17:59:54 <summatusmentis> alright, fair enough, I guess
Apr 06 18:00:03 * summatusmentis is kind of obsessive :)
Apr 06 18:02:02 <cb22> s/kind of//
Apr 06 18:02:03 <cb22> :p
Apr 06 18:09:29 <summatusmentis> cb22: lol, don't hate :)
Apr 06 18:15:24 <Bish> u guys are looking forward to freerunner
Apr 06 18:16:18 <summatusmentis> pretty much, that's the only reason I'm in here :-P
Apr 06 18:16:53 <doc|home> I'm here for the coke and hookers
Apr 06 18:17:03 <cb22> doc|home: you too?
Apr 06 18:17:06 <summatusmentis> we have coke here?
Apr 06 18:17:12 <summatusmentis> why was I not informed?
Apr 06 18:17:12 <doc|home> cb22: aye!
Apr 06 18:17:21 <doc|home> summatusmentis: you have to know the right peole
Apr 06 18:17:23 <doc|home> *people
Apr 06 18:17:33 <summatusmentis> oh, that would explain it
Apr 06 18:17:35 <rtm> Is there a wiki page explaining where we get that?
Apr 06 18:17:52 <doc|home> rtm: yes, but you must find it on your own
Apr 06 18:17:58 <zedstar> local groups amsterdam
Apr 06 18:18:18 <summatusmentis> is there like a pre-order list or something for it?
Apr 06 18:18:22 <rtm> I've I've tried opkg install hooker.  It bricked my neo.
Apr 06 18:18:44 <cb22> too bad its not gentoo, or you could've USEd protection :p
Apr 06 18:19:19 <Bish> :DD 
Apr 06 18:19:31 <Bish> will freerunner be there in may?
Apr 06 18:20:44 <zedstar> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups:_Amsterdam
Apr 06 18:20:47 <zedstar> hmm none listed
Apr 06 18:20:53 <summatusmentis> Bish: we don't know when, we're hoping soon
Apr 06 18:21:03 <summatusmentis> topic says maybe April
Apr 06 18:25:28 <edistar> zedstar: do you live in NL?
Apr 06 18:26:11 <zedstar> edistar no UK
Apr 06 18:26:52 <edistar> ok, was wondering because of amsterdam
Apr 06 18:27:23 <zedstar> edistar no was just a poor attempt at a joke
Apr 06 18:28:23 <edistar> ok:)
Apr 06 18:37:34 <Kero> yeah, bad joke. as if we have that only in Amsterdam.
Apr 06 18:42:42 <Bish> summatusmentis: would be fuking great
Apr 06 18:43:10 <summatusmentis> Bish: agreed, but we don't actually know. 
Apr 06 18:44:01 <Bish> summatusmentis: is it very popular?
Apr 06 18:44:18 <Bish> because the buying interested list isnt that big.
Apr 06 18:44:34 <Bish> or will there be a sold out.
Apr 06 18:45:25 <summatusmentis> Bish: I don't really know that either. They're planning on producing more than they did for the 1973, I think
Apr 06 18:46:00 <Bish> hope so.. i want to hold it in my hands, !
Apr 06 18:46:49 <rtm> I'll be kinda amazed if the Freerunner has appeal beyond the hardcore nerd market.   But I'm often wrong.
Apr 06 18:47:17 <summatusmentis> rtm: I think once the software stack gets there, it'll be much easier to mass market
Apr 06 18:47:45 <rtm> I hope you're right.
Apr 06 18:48:12 * Bish does so, too
Apr 06 18:48:26 <summatusmentis> me too, I don't want fic/neo to go the same way as sharp/zaurus
Apr 06 18:48:49 <Bish> what happend exactly?
Apr 06 18:48:55 <rtm> If the Freerunner ships with a rootfs installed, that'll help move it into the mainstream a bit.
Apr 06 18:49:15 <Bish> it wontß
Apr 06 18:50:35 <Bish> uh, the german openmoko community seems to be huge
Apr 06 18:50:54 <rtm> The Zarius is encouraging in a way, because the software it spawned outlived the hardware platform.
Apr 06 18:52:41 <rtm> Opps, I meant Zaurus.
Apr 06 18:52:53 <Bish> ah i c.. thats bad
Apr 06 18:53:01 <Bish> .. but for me it doesnt matter, or does it?
Apr 06 18:53:33 <Bish> hm.. okay.. the openmoko community will die out, uh
Apr 06 18:54:15 <rtm> Bish: Why do you believe it will die out?
Apr 06 18:55:25 <Bish> only if the neo wont be successfull
Apr 06 18:55:32 <Bish> or am i wrong?
Apr 06 18:55:45 <summatusmentis> rtm: the only reason the community survived was because there was another devic
Apr 06 18:55:59 <abraxa_> Bish: We all take our daily dose of optimism every morning. All will be well. :)
Apr 06 18:57:24 <rtm> Summatusmentis: Which device did the community move to first?   There was a gap between Zaurus and Openmoko, wasn't there?
Apr 06 18:58:39 <summatusmentis> only sort of
Apr 06 18:58:57 <Bish> ah i c..
Apr 06 18:58:57 <summatusmentis> The Zaurus was still a feasible device once openmoko/neo was announced
Apr 06 18:59:06 <Bish> what about android, i read the name on some pages?
Apr 06 18:59:39 <summatusmentis> android isn't a community effort, isn't really opensource, and isn't available yet
Apr 06 19:03:26 <abraxa_> Also, Andriod is lead by the company who only says "don't be evil" until it can't deny being evil any longer ;)
Apr 06 19:06:40 <summatusmentis> I don't think Google is trying to be evil
Apr 06 19:07:16 <zedstar> i wouldnt trust google
Apr 06 19:07:20 <mwester> They're not trying to be *not* evil either.
Apr 06 19:07:23 <ixian_probe> summatusmentis: no, they've just been corporatized ^_^
Apr 06 19:07:43 <zedstar> i was at a large mobile even where the speaker claimed Android was the first open source mobile platform etc
Apr 06 19:07:51 <zedstar> event
Apr 06 19:09:51 <abraxa_> I forgot where I read it but someone pointed out that instead of releasing what they have and putting it under SCM, they want to release things at random points in time - which can be interpreted as "we *don't* want to release what we don't *have* to release, so we'll keep you hanging on for as long as we can"
Apr 06 19:10:25 <Stephmw> abraxa_: no, that's not quite correct
Apr 06 19:10:49 <abraxa_> Oh? Where was I mistaken then?
Apr 06 19:10:54 <mickeyl> zedstar: that's unfortunately untrue at this point of time
Apr 06 19:10:55 <Stephmw> abraxa_: they have contractual obligations to only release certain parts (like the mpeg4 codecs) after the first commercial handset ships
Apr 06 19:11:12 <Stephmw> abraxa_: they just avoid telling people about this
Apr 06 19:11:49 <abraxa_> Stephmw: Hm... weird that this isn't communicated
Apr 06 19:12:01 <Stephmw> abraxa_: no, that's just PR
Apr 06 19:12:08 <summatusmentis> ixian_probe: yes, but that get's into how evil capitalism is :)
Apr 06 19:12:12 <zedstar> mickeyl yes i actually had a Neo on me that day and did speak to some of their engineers at the after show party they werent too bothered
Apr 06 19:12:20 <Stephmw> abraxa_: they certainly don't want the media to pick up on the fact that android is open only for marketing
Apr 06 19:12:43 <abraxa_> Stephmw: Nicely said :)
Apr 06 19:13:07 <Mek> hmm.. I didn't expect this... I had left my neo locked for > 48 hours, with just a battery, and the battery was still not empty...
Apr 06 19:15:15 <rtm> Mek: That is surprising.   My neo is like a little Tamagotchi Pet that I have to keep feeding via the USB at very regular intervals, or it dies.
Apr 06 19:15:33 <Stephmw> abraxa_: there's lots more about the platform that I don't like - which is why I haven't gotten involved in coding for it
Apr 06 19:15:34 <zedstar> does android actually use dbus does anyone know or are they reinventing IPC too?
Apr 06 19:15:53 <Stephmw> there's some other IPC thingie that I can't remember the name of
Apr 06 19:15:58 <Stephmw> something already existing
Apr 06 19:16:24 <abraxa_> zedstar: They do use D-Bus according to a 3rd party... in ways I am tempted to use it in OM as well, I have to admit
Apr 06 19:16:40 <abraxa_> Stephmw: Mind listing a few? Always good to have arguments handy :)
Apr 06 19:16:59 <zedstar> ah that is interesting to know thanks
Apr 06 19:17:41 <Stephmw> abraxa_: well, nothing that isn't already plastered on several blogs... but really it's that no matter which way they paint it, Google can't (and doesn't want) guarantee that actual handsets won't be locked down
Apr 06 19:18:03 <Stephmw> abraxa_: so where's the 'open' aspect? it's only useful to manufacturers
Apr 06 19:18:46 <zedstar> interesting times ahead!
Apr 06 19:19:06 <abraxa_> Stephmw: Yeah... indeed.
Apr 06 19:19:44 <zedstar> i wonder how locked down the Orange linux (ALP) based phone will be also
Apr 06 19:20:03 <zedstar> supposedly out in a few months
Apr 06 19:20:22 <Stephmw> zedstar: well... when I last looked at things in the Orange camp, an 'Open' OS included Symbian and WinMobile
Apr 06 19:20:30 <Stephmw> zedstar: I'll let you make your own conclusions
Apr 06 19:20:37 <edistar> iirc there will be android on the neo? some company working on that?
Apr 06 19:20:53 <zedstar> stephmw lol yeh...probably open to old palm apps :)
Apr 06 19:21:24 <Stephmw> zedstar: nono, it's more that the meaning of 'open' is fluid now it's become a buzzword. I'm writing a blog entry on this topic
Apr 06 19:22:18 <abraxa_> edistar: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/014813.html
Apr 06 19:22:29 <zedstar> stephmw ok cool be interested to read it
Apr 06 19:25:02 <edistar> abraxa_: thx
Apr 06 19:25:48 <raster> moo
Apr 06 19:26:01 <summatusmentis> hi raster 
Apr 06 19:26:31 * raster moos
Apr 06 19:27:20 <abraxa_> raster: If I milk you, will a Freerunner fall out?
Apr 06 19:27:25 <Bish> :DD
Apr 06 19:27:31 <raster> ewwww
Apr 06 19:27:37 <raster> i am SOOOOOOOO not lactating dude!
Apr 06 19:27:49 <abraxa_> Well. There was a chance.
Apr 06 19:27:54 <edistar> mad cow disease?
Apr 06 19:27:56 <summatusmentis> see, I wasn't gonna go there
Apr 06 20:16:27 <ScaredyCat> <summatusmentis> [21:06] I don't think Google is trying to be evil
Apr 06 20:17:07 <ScaredyCat> they just purchased double click - that's evil, double click == satan
Apr 06 20:17:08 <summatusmentis> it's true, I mean, aside from being a huge corporation(which is the fault of a capitalistic society)
Apr 06 20:17:16 <summatusmentis> and now they're selling off parts of it
Apr 06 20:17:36 <ScaredyCat> well, they're making 300 people redundant from dc
Apr 06 20:18:04 <ScaredyCat> essentially they'll take the data and probably leave the tracking and ditch the people...
Apr 06 20:20:14 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: there's a line though, it's also sort of dependent on how they use the data
Apr 06 20:20:38 <ScaredyCat> I'm afraid I'm in the "Google is evil, people just haven't seen it yet"
Apr 06 20:20:54 <raster> geevil
Apr 06 20:20:56 <raster> ?
Apr 06 20:20:56 <raster> :)
Apr 06 20:21:14 <ScaredyCat> gEvil ?
Apr 06 20:21:28 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: I tend to feel that "Google can be evil, and it'll probably get to that point, but we're not there yet"
Apr 06 20:22:58 <ScaredyCat> well, you're probably at the right age for their carrots :)
Apr 06 20:23:26 <abraxa_> Problem is: we won't know if/when government agencies start tapping google's resources
Apr 06 20:23:57 <ScaredyCat> they're not now? 
Apr 06 20:23:59 <ScaredyCat> Sure?
Apr 06 20:25:17 <abraxa_> Exactly - I'm not :)
Apr 06 20:25:34 <ScaredyCat> perhaps I'm too old an cynical
Apr 06 20:25:38 * cb22 sees the black helicopteres near ScaredyCat's house
Apr 06 20:26:01 <ScaredyCat> there are a lot of them here... 
Apr 06 20:26:34 <ScaredyCat> this place is on the edge of a training area.
Apr 06 20:26:44 <cb22> raster: is it done yet?
Apr 06 20:27:16 <cb22> your custom matching engine that is :p
Apr 06 20:27:39 <raster> no
Apr 06 20:27:45 <raster> i have been thinking over how to do it
Apr 06 20:27:56 <raster> i now know i can't squeeze aspell into service
Apr 06 20:28:03 <raster> (i looked into it)
Apr 06 20:28:20 <raster> and i'm mulling over how to format a dictionary for fast partial lookups
Apr 06 20:29:11 <cb22> btw, do you have your finger in the gta03 deciding pie? :)
Apr 06 20:30:02 <ScaredyCat> sorted, then access with binary chop
Apr 06 20:30:05 <raster> cb22: i do
Apr 06 20:30:18 <raster> got any input?
Apr 06 20:31:16 <cb22> yeah, add in the v8 :) ... or a gfx chip that has more then 7mb/s bandwidth!
Apr 06 20:31:40 <cb22> but i dont think you need me to tell you that :)
Apr 06 20:31:49 <raster> hahahahaha
Apr 06 20:31:51 <summatusmentis> raster: also, high speed network?
Apr 06 20:31:52 <raster> well yes
Apr 06 20:31:54 <raster> i know that
Apr 06 20:31:57 <raster> but any other input?
Apr 06 20:32:04 <cb22> 3g, definitly
Apr 06 20:32:15 <raster> summatusmentis: 802.11 isn't enough?
Apr 06 20:32:15 <summatusmentis> at least, ideally 700Mhz access
Apr 06 20:32:16 <ScaredyCat> 2 keyboars
Apr 06 20:32:23 <ScaredyCat> keyboard
Apr 06 20:32:26 <ScaredyCat> s
Apr 06 20:32:28 <summatusmentis> raster: not available in a lot of areas where I am
Apr 06 20:32:30 <raster> ok
Apr 06 20:32:34 <raster> REAL suggestions
Apr 06 20:32:42 <raster> not peanuts from the peanut gallery
Apr 06 20:32:43 <raster> :)
Apr 06 20:32:53 <ScaredyCat> 2 keyboards is a real suggestion!
Apr 06 20:32:55 <cb22> raster: i'd imagine there is going to be a completely new case design too?
Apr 06 20:32:59 * ScaredyCat points at the helio
Apr 06 20:33:08 <raster> summatusmentis: 3gt - beign hotly debated, but u'll need to convince sean.
Apr 06 20:33:14 <ScaredyCat> (ocean)
Apr 06 20:33:21 <raster> if you users really want 3g
Apr 06 20:33:23 <raster> you need to speak up
Apr 06 20:33:27 <raster> en-masse
Apr 06 20:33:29 <raster> if u don't
Apr 06 20:33:31 <raster> then u wont get it
Apr 06 20:33:41 <summatusmentis> raster: sean is never on IRC :) how do we contact him?
Apr 06 20:33:45 <raster> cb22:  yes. new case (of course!)
Apr 06 20:33:50 <raster> wum put up a wiki page about it
Apr 06 20:33:51 <ScaredyCat> well, without meaning to be too rude
Apr 06 20:33:59 <ScaredyCat> (yes unusual I  know)
Apr 06 20:33:59 <raster> summatusmentis: and get everyone to "sign up"
Apr 06 20:34:01 <raster> eg
Apr 06 20:34:08 <ScaredyCat> it's a bit fucking obvious
Apr 06 20:34:11 <raster> "i will only buy a gta03 if its 3g" <yes><no>
Apr 06 20:34:13 <raster> its up to you
Apr 06 20:34:24 <raster> ScaredyCat: not to sean
Apr 06 20:34:25 <cb22> raster: although just seeing the discussion on the kernel list is cool :)
Apr 06 20:34:29 <raster> he is disinterested in 3g
Apr 06 20:34:42 <ScaredyCat> the non geek wont be buying the 02 at all..
Apr 06 20:34:44 <raster> 3g is not going to happen unless customers beat him up to get it
Apr 06 20:34:48 <cb22> if not 3g, _at least_ edge
Apr 06 20:34:58 <raster> as i said
Apr 06 20:35:00 <raster> if u want it
Apr 06 20:35:01 <ScaredyCat> and lots of geeks will not buy it  because there's no 3g
Apr 06 20:35:01 <raster> speak up
Apr 06 20:35:06 <raster> i personally want 3g
Apr 06 20:35:09 <raster> umts minimum
Apr 06 20:35:19 <raster> but what i say has no power.
Apr 06 20:35:21 <summatusmentis> raster: what benefit would 03 have if not high network speeds?
Apr 06 20:35:27 <summatusmentis> the rest is just fluff, you know?
Apr 06 20:35:28 <raster> ScaredyCat: dont convince me
Apr 06 20:35:31 <raster> convince sean
Apr 06 20:35:41 <raster> i repeat
Apr 06 20:35:49 <raster> put up a wiki page
Apr 06 20:35:50 <ScaredyCat> yes, I get that...
Apr 06 20:35:56 <raster> and get numbers behind what u say
Apr 06 20:35:57 <cb22> ScaredyCat: wiki page, go go go!
Apr 06 20:36:09 <raster> sign up if you will or will not buy a gta03/4/whatever
Apr 06 20:36:19 <raster> if it has 2g, 2g+edge/3g (umts) 3.5g etc.
Apr 06 20:36:20 <ScaredyCat> I just think he might have his hands over his ears and  be going "lalalalalalalalallaal I can't hear you lalalalala"
Apr 06 20:36:22 <zedstar_> 3.5G!
Apr 06 20:36:25 <raster> if 99% of peole just wont buy without 3g
Apr 06 20:36:28 <raster> thats a strong point
Apr 06 20:36:34 <raster> but again - dont convince me
Apr 06 20:36:40 <cb22> but the thing is... it may not be a deal breaker
Apr 06 20:36:41 <raster> put numbers behind your words
Apr 06 20:36:48 <raster> get the community to make its voice heard
Apr 06 20:37:09 <summatusmentis> raster: is there a preliminary list of features being discussed?
Apr 06 20:37:10 * ScaredyCat checks for a poll plugin
Apr 06 20:37:25 <cb22> summatusmentis: check out the kernel mailing list
Apr 06 20:37:27 <zedstar_> it is probably a good time to convince sean now as readin that post on planet sounded like he just took a Bong hit
Apr 06 20:37:43 <raster> 3g presents all sorts of extra issues
Apr 06 20:37:47 <raster> even *IF* everyone wanted it 
Apr 06 20:37:54 <raster> and woudlnt buy a gta03/4/5 without it
Apr 06 20:37:59 <raster> there is the cost increase
Apr 06 20:38:05 <raster> it will significantly raise the cost
Apr 06 20:38:13 <raster> above 2g/2g+edge
Apr 06 20:38:17 <raster> also power consumption will go up
Apr 06 20:38:23 <raster> (for data xfers over 3g)
Apr 06 20:38:37 <cb22> raster: well...
Apr 06 20:38:41 <raster> summatusmentis:  and all features are internal - we dont put them in public
Apr 06 20:38:46 <raster> so as i said
Apr 06 20:38:48 <raster> if u want 3g
Apr 06 20:38:50 <raster> or whatever
Apr 06 20:39:00 <raster> put up a wiki page and get peole to vote yes/no or whatever
Apr 06 20:39:10 <raster> put numbers behind your desires
Apr 06 20:39:19 <cb22> if you use 2mw /minute with gprs, and 10mw / minute with 3g, but 3g only needs 1 minute where as gprs needs 10
Apr 06 20:39:59 <raster> sure
Apr 06 20:40:07 <raster> but just idling ojn 3g uses more as best i know
Apr 06 20:40:19 <cb22> yeah, it does
Apr 06 20:40:26 <raster> but as i said
Apr 06 20:40:31 <cb22> wiki page :)
Apr 06 20:40:35 <raster> even if we know the market nneeds 3g
Apr 06 20:40:38 <raster> and insists on it
Apr 06 20:40:46 <raster> there are other technical hurdles after that
Apr 06 20:40:52 <raster> right now u are stuck at the first hurdle
Apr 06 20:41:02 <raster> sean is of the beliefe the market doesnt want or care for 3g
Apr 06 20:41:06 <raster> u want 2g+ 802.11
Apr 06 20:41:11 <raster> u want to bypoass the carriers
Apr 06 20:41:17 <morricone> well, A5 is almost broken, so sooner or later we need 3g ;)
Apr 06 20:41:21 <raster> u dont care to pay them for their data networks
Apr 06 20:41:35 <abraxa_> So, anyone setting up the wiki voting page?
Apr 06 20:41:46 <raster> so u've lost already as the beliegfe is that u dont need 3g nor do u care - nor is it useful to you
Apr 06 20:41:48 <cb22> abraxa_: go ahead
Apr 06 20:41:56 <raster> so uif u want/need 3g and it is useful to u and u care
Apr 06 20:42:00 <raster> u need to make it known
Apr 06 20:42:07 <raster> if u dont
Apr 06 20:42:09 <raster> u'll never get it
Apr 06 20:42:23 <raster> if u do - then thnigs go onto the next hurdle - technical
Apr 06 20:42:34 <raster> even then u need to be willing to say u will pay mroe for 3g
Apr 06 20:42:50 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: Whatchu doing atm?
Apr 06 20:42:59 <raster> (no idea how much more - maybe $200? or $300? no idea definitely not $20 more)
Apr 06 20:43:11 <ScaredyCat> right now? looking at putting a poll together
Apr 06 20:43:28 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: Ah okay. Let me know how that goes so it won't be forgotten :)
Apr 06 20:43:43 <ScaredyCat> hehe
Apr 06 20:43:47 <ccfly> 3g is a power sucking demon straigh from hell
Apr 06 20:43:48 <unknown_lamer> meh, edge is fast enough
Apr 06 20:43:58 <ccfly> it wants your battery and it wants it bad
Apr 06 20:44:08 <unknown_lamer> damn european folk and your supposedly extant 3G networks
Apr 06 20:44:14 <cb22> ccfly: i agree, lets skip normal 3g and go straight to hsdpa
Apr 06 20:44:16 <Basheri_> I'll definitely stand behind 3g
Apr 06 20:44:21 <ccfly> c class receiver/transmitter, quite inefficient
Apr 06 20:44:27 <Basheri_> or hsdpa/*
Apr 06 20:44:28 <cb22> unknown_lamer: bwaha, even us in africa have hsdpa
Apr 06 20:44:32 <ccfly> hspda is no better in this regard
Apr 06 20:44:34 <unknown_lamer> curse you all
Apr 06 20:44:48 <raster> cb22:  hsupa :)
Apr 06 20:44:52 <Sonicadvance> eh? I only have CDMA around here
Apr 06 20:44:52 <raster> (3.5g)
Apr 06 20:45:13 <raster> but if u go that far umts etc. is already included
Apr 06 20:45:16 <cb22> raster: gta03 + hsupa + lighttpd :)
Apr 06 20:45:24 <ccfly> use GPRS + EDGE for everything lese Wifi will do just fine
Apr 06 20:45:44 <raster> imho wifi is great - for when u are @ home, the office and mayeb a friends place
Apr 06 20:45:48 <raster> where u have AP access
Apr 06 20:45:53 <univac> wimax ;d
Apr 06 20:45:56 <raster> outside those places u want 3g for any data
Apr 06 20:46:02 <raster> wimax aint happening :)
Apr 06 20:46:21 <cb22> raster: pleas, please, please, please make sure the case looks sexy :)
Apr 06 20:47:09 <ccfly> I don't find myself wanting to shift gargantuan ammounts of data on my cell phone, even though having web server on the move sound enourmously geeky and woulld boost my geek credit +1000 GP
Apr 06 20:47:45 <raster> cb22: dude - i want a case that doesn't offend me :) one i'd be ok to b4e seen in public with. i will make sure it sexy
Apr 06 20:47:50 <raster> it may not be everyones taste
Apr 06 20:47:51 <ScaredyCat> ok, what's the best wording....
Apr 06 20:47:56 <raster> but it'll be less of a rubber hocvkey-puck
Apr 06 20:47:57 <abraxa_> raster: I don't care much about the cellular network tech as long as the graphics engine makes me want to buy you flowers and marry you. I want to beat the freaking Apple eye candy.
Apr 06 20:47:57 <raster> thats for sure
Apr 06 20:47:58 <raster> :)
Apr 06 20:48:25 <raster> abraxa_: thats frankly my primary focus
Apr 06 20:48:26 <raster> gfx
Apr 06 20:48:27 <ScaredyCat> "Would you buy a device >GTA02 that did not have 3g?"
Apr 06 20:48:34 <raster> right now i am thinking a WQVGA screen
Apr 06 20:48:39 <raster> 432x240
Apr 06 20:48:44 <raster> really ultra-widescreen
Apr 06 20:48:50 <raster> lower res than vga - sure
Apr 06 20:48:58 <abraxa_> For GTA02? Or its successor?
Apr 06 20:49:01 <raster> but we will be able to drive that with gfx very very very smoothly
Apr 06 20:49:04 <raster> 03
Apr 06 20:49:14 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: my issue is that there may be some other features that make it feasible for me to buy 03 w/out 3g
Apr 06 20:49:16 <raster> with NO acceleration
Apr 06 20:49:39 <ScaredyCat> summatusmentis: such as?
Apr 06 20:49:45 <josch> noooo!!! no vga anymore??
Apr 06 20:49:48 <cb22> raster: bwahaha, thats the best definition of what gta0? looks like i've ever heard
Apr 06 20:49:54 <abraxa_> raster: Dunno... VGA is pretty much a must for me
Apr 06 20:50:01 <josch> seconded
Apr 06 20:50:17 <raster> abraxa_: not likely to get it.
Apr 06 20:50:20 <Sonicadvance> Still better than my Razr's reso ;p
Apr 06 20:50:25 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: 16gb storage, or some other feature that makes it worth an upgrade, you know?
Apr 06 20:50:37 <abraxa_> raster: Damn :(
Apr 06 20:50:44 <josch> f***
Apr 06 20:50:45 <raster> vga screens are rare
Apr 06 20:50:51 <ccfly> oh common, maybe we can put some pain on nvidia / ati executives
Apr 06 20:50:52 <raster> compared to their qvga counterparts and variants
Apr 06 20:50:55 <ccfly> you know change their mind
Apr 06 20:51:06 <Tronic_> Hmm.. They are already planning on shutting down the GPS network in Finland.
Apr 06 20:51:10 <josch> then i have to buy as many gta01 as i can
Apr 06 20:51:11 <ccfly> specification are within our grasp, I'm telling you !
Apr 06 20:51:12 <ccfly> :>
Apr 06 20:51:14 <Tronic_> Replacing it with 900 MHz 3G.
Apr 06 20:51:15 <raster> the vga lcd is quite expensive actually
Apr 06 20:51:17 <abraxa_> Tronic_: You mean GSM?
Apr 06 20:51:21 <Tronic_> Sorry, GSM.
Apr 06 20:51:27 <ScaredyCat> right, so you'd be ok with gprs is you got 16gb ?
Apr 06 20:51:30 <cb22> ccfly: maybe if we do a covert op and steal their source code and 100,000 chips?
Apr 06 20:51:42 <Bish> gps network?
Apr 06 20:51:46 <Bish> ah i c xD
Apr 06 20:51:55 <cb22> i'm good for it *cocks pistol*
Apr 06 20:52:33 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: potentially, I don't know how to say. At this point, i don't have money to spend on data, but I may in the future, you know?
Apr 06 20:53:12 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: 3g would be deal sealer at least
Apr 06 20:53:20 <ScaredyCat> right. but lets assume you got a $35 all the data you need + 200 sms + 500 minutes :)
Apr 06 20:53:21 <ccfly> well since you could still make the modem part to work on 2g or 3g I don't see much dillema here
Apr 06 20:53:37 <ccfly> still 3g is evil :>
Apr 06 20:54:02 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: I'd buy a phone w/ 3g, I may still buy the same phone w/out 3g if the rest of it were worth an upgrade
Apr 06 20:54:12 <cb22> summatusmentis: yeah, same here
Apr 06 20:56:16 <cb22> but, it is a _huge_ benefit. like a few months ago, i was having a crisis, should i get an asus eee or a neo. now i've got enough cash to get both :) but if the neo had wifi, i would have gotten it
Apr 06 20:56:50 * summatusmentis is considering selling his Z for a freerunner
Apr 06 20:57:01 <cb22> it may not be a deal breaker on its own, but when you start thinking about alternatives, it can help
Apr 06 20:57:05 <cb22> summatusmentis: Z?
Apr 06 20:57:14 <summatusmentis> cb22: Zaurus, C3200
Apr 06 20:57:31 <cb22> ah, well dont buy anything until you know if you've been accepted for soc :)
Apr 06 20:57:38 <summatusmentis> :-D
Apr 06 20:57:58 <summatusmentis> I'd wait until I get out of my current contract, and raster finishes the onscreen keyboard :)
Apr 06 20:58:06 <raster> the kbd does work
Apr 06 20:58:09 <raster> its there - working
Apr 06 20:58:16 <raster> it just is onyl usable by stylus atm
Apr 06 20:58:16 <raster> :)
Apr 06 20:58:20 <ccfly> may I ask how is the whole e on moko thing going raster ?
Apr 06 20:58:24 <summatusmentis> right, finger keyboard is a must :)
Apr 06 20:58:25 <raster> need to fix it up for fingaz
Apr 06 20:58:34 <raster> ccfly:  working ok
Apr 06 21:00:25 <ccfly> as for wimax, who knows, Intel is bound to start spewing out chips with it
Apr 06 21:00:43 <raster> u'd need wimax providers too
Apr 06 21:00:43 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:00:58 <ccfly> we have one ! :)
Apr 06 21:01:22 <ccfly> now let's see if the rest of the world can follow :>
Apr 06 21:01:26 <raster> here they just use the 3g spectrum for it :)
Apr 06 21:01:59 <cb22> ccfly: uhm, we have quite a few of those in za, sorry :p
Apr 06 21:02:32 * ccfly does jedi trick: "you have no wimax providers in za" :>
Apr 06 21:03:14 <cb22> * ccfly has been kicked from #openmoko by cb22: Jedi tricks don't work on me, fool!
Apr 06 21:03:36 <ccfly> :)
Apr 06 21:04:36 <summatusmentis> raster: how does fic plan on marketing to multiple regions?
Apr 06 21:04:58 <summatusmentis> I don't know what the status of the 700Mhz spectrum is in eu, but it's gonna be the next thing in the US
Apr 06 21:05:33 <raster> fix doesn't plan on anything
Apr 06 21:05:39 <raster> openmoko may though
Apr 06 21:05:41 <raster> err
Apr 06 21:05:41 <raster> fic
Apr 06 21:05:43 <raster> not fix
Apr 06 21:05:44 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:06:16 <ccfly> It would be really nice if they would open that spectrum for everyone, but I guess I'm dreaming here
Apr 06 21:06:46 <Blastur> haha,yeah.. you're dreaming
Apr 06 21:06:54 <summatusmentis> ok, so openmoko then, are there plans for taking care of that sort of thing?
Apr 06 21:06:55 <Blastur> unless you got like a billion billions to spare
Apr 06 21:07:17 <Bish> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Media_Content/ar <- cool
Apr 06 21:09:41 <summatusmentis> cb22: I'm scared, there are 50 applicants, and OM might only get 4 slots
Apr 06 21:09:45 <raster> summatusmentis:  i really dont know about our marketing plans
Apr 06 21:09:49 <summatusmentis> ok
Apr 06 21:09:55 <raster> i can't speak for them
Apr 06 21:10:09 <raster> i have enough work focusing on engineering and stuff :)
Apr 06 21:11:12 <cb22> summatusmentis: well, good luck :)
Apr 06 21:11:41 <summatusmentis> raster: that makes sense
Apr 06 21:12:58 <raster> even within engineering i want to focus on those thngs relevant to the screen and user esperience
Apr 06 21:13:03 <raster> experience
Apr 06 21:13:12 <raster> make it smooth, beautiful and a joy to behold
Apr 06 21:13:20 <raster> basically- i hope to beat apple at their own game
Apr 06 21:13:25 <raster> wle i'd love to
Apr 06 21:13:26 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:13:28 <raster> well
Apr 06 21:14:11 * cb22 hands raster an apple beating stick
Apr 06 21:14:57 <abraxa_> raster: I'm with you on that one 100%. We also need to beat Android, too.
Apr 06 21:15:15 <raster> no need to beat
Apr 06 21:15:23 <raster> i want to eventually look at how to work with android
Apr 06 21:15:27 <raster> their have their own UI
Apr 06 21:15:30 <raster> their own windowing thing
Apr 06 21:15:34 <raster> and that is just sucky
Apr 06 21:15:43 <raster> so eventually there may need to be some work to port that over to x
Apr 06 21:15:50 <raster> so everyone can play nicely together
Apr 06 21:16:07 <abraxa_> Yeah, and they might have good concepts to integrate/copy/improve on
Apr 06 21:16:11 <morricone> i don't think they reallye want to play nicely together
Apr 06 21:16:45 <ccfly> why not they're selling their services not an integrated experience per se
Apr 06 21:16:54 <raster> morricone: they may not
Apr 06 21:17:12 <raster> but thats "to be seen" for now
Apr 06 21:17:16 <ccfly> they're merely making sure a platform for their stuff even exists
Apr 06 21:17:38 <morricone> but maybe I'm a bit too pessimistic there
Apr 06 21:20:22 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:20:29 <raster> if they really are all about the services
Apr 06 21:20:41 <raster> they wont care about other platforms using them and accessign them and integrating them well
Apr 06 21:20:45 <raster> as its all positive for them
Apr 06 21:20:57 <ScaredyCat> abraxa_: I've added the poll, want to take a look at the  'questions' to make sure they're ok ?
Apr 06 21:21:29 <abraxa_> Sure thing
Apr 06 21:22:37 <ScaredyCat> thanks
Apr 06 21:22:45 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: Where? :)
Apr 06 21:22:47 <ScaredyCat> it's on the right sidebar
Apr 06 21:22:52 <ScaredyCat> http://blog.automated.it 
Apr 06 21:23:18 <abraxa_> btw, anyone knows what happened to the wiki? Seems like lots of edits are gone
Apr 06 21:23:24 <ScaredyCat> :o
Apr 06 21:23:46 * raster votes
Apr 06 21:23:54 <raster> hahaha
Apr 06 21:24:03 <raster> No. 3g is essential. (100%, 2 Votes)
Apr 06 21:24:08 <abraxa_> ScaredyCat: I'd like to see another option. "GPRS is not enough but 3G isn't necessary. EDGE would be okay, too."
Apr 06 21:24:35 <ScaredyCat> ok, 2 seconds
Apr 06 21:24:44 <abraxa_> 1...2...
Apr 06 21:25:30 <ScaredyCat> done
Apr 06 21:26:08 <abraxa_> Hm... I refreshed but it doesn't show up?
Apr 06 21:26:21 <ScaredyCat> click the vote button
Apr 06 21:26:34 <abraxa_> "Please choose a valid poll answer"
Apr 06 21:26:35 <ScaredyCat> or the view results
Apr 06 21:26:42 <abraxa_> Well, I wanna vote that option :)
Apr 06 21:26:57 <ScaredyCat> do you see the questions or resultS?
Apr 06 21:27:15 <abraxa_> Questions - 4 of them
Apr 06 21:27:28 <abraxa_> I mean 4 possible answers
Apr 06 21:27:48 <ScaredyCat> right, click the 'view results' text
Apr 06 21:28:15 <ScaredyCat> oh, wait a sec I';ll kill the page cache,..
Apr 06 21:28:36 <abraxa_> There we go
Apr 06 21:28:42 <ScaredyCat> refresh the page
Apr 06 21:28:43 <abraxa_> Looks like we found a bug in the plugin :)
Apr 06 21:29:23 <ScaredyCat> hegheh
Apr 06 21:30:54 <ScaredyCat> lol - 3g is the leader after 5 seconds:)
Apr 06 21:33:56 <summatusmentis> ScaredyCat: how do we show this to sean?
Apr 06 21:34:19 <ScaredyCat> I'll blog about it and get it on planet...
Apr 06 21:35:16 <thos>    ????
Apr 06 21:37:55 <thos> abraxa_, will anyone vite no?
Apr 06 21:38:12 <thos> unless you're in some gsm backward country like USA ;-)
Apr 06 21:38:36 <ScaredyCat> yoink! :)
Apr 06 21:38:37 <raster> hehehhee
Apr 06 21:38:38 <abraxa_> Well I dunno... I guess Sean would?
Apr 06 21:38:47 <raster> just make sure peole know about the poll
Apr 06 21:38:49 <abraxa_> That's the whole point of it anyway
Apr 06 21:38:51 <raster> let them vote as they wish
Apr 06 21:39:08 <raster> get enough votes for it to be relevant
Apr 06 21:39:12 <raster> and it has weight
Apr 06 21:40:52 <thos> how does it have any weight?
Apr 06 21:41:15 <raster> if enough people vote - it has a good representation of possible customers
Apr 06 21:41:15 <thos> to be honest, I find most of the community "debate" totally pointless
Apr 06 21:41:17 <raster> if only 5 peole vote
Apr 06 21:41:20 <raster> its pretty useless
Apr 06 21:41:21 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:41:32 <raster> a lot of it is
Apr 06 21:41:51 <raster> but u aren't going to see 3g without being organised enough to push it
Apr 06 21:41:57 <raster> i'll tell u that
Apr 06 21:41:59 <thos> huh
Apr 06 21:42:05 <raster> if u dont want it
Apr 06 21:42:09 <raster> then its irrelevant to you
Apr 06 21:42:17 <thos> if openmoko are smart enough, they will have already have been thinking about it
Apr 06 21:42:24 <thos> if they aren't smart enough, then what's the hope?
Apr 06 21:42:28 <raster> i can tell u what the thinking is
Apr 06 21:42:35 <raster> everyone but sean/will want 3g
Apr 06 21:42:38 <josch> ScaredyCat, do a blog post so we can see the poll on planet
Apr 06 21:42:39 <raster> they are basically vetoing it
Apr 06 21:42:57 <raster> as in their opinion it is against the wills of the "free culture market"
Apr 06 21:43:04 <raster> it sends the "Wrong message"
Apr 06 21:43:14 <raster> and 3g is also not useful
Apr 06 21:43:22 <raster> all u need is 2g+edge at best
Apr 06 21:43:36 <raster> as otherwise u will use free 802.11 everywhere
Apr 06 21:43:38 <thos> raster, for the US market, they might be right
Apr 06 21:43:51 <thos> 3G is virtually non-existent in the us afaik
Apr 06 21:43:51 <raster> not even for the us market imho
Apr 06 21:44:11 <raster> i suspect u'll see it build in the near future
Apr 06 21:44:27 <raster> but even then
Apr 06 21:44:32 <thos> raster, I already told will he would be able to sell a lot more units if they had 3g
Apr 06 21:44:34 <raster> let the customers speak
Apr 06 21:44:37 <raster> if u dont need it
Apr 06 21:44:38 <raster> then fine
Apr 06 21:44:39 <raster> u dont
Apr 06 21:45:06 <raster> my point is - if u want to see 3g - u need to speak up
Apr 06 21:45:12 <raster> and not just say the obvious
Apr 06 21:45:20 <raster> its being repeated ad-nauseum internally
Apr 06 21:45:30 <raster> i'm bored of the discussion
Apr 06 21:45:48 <raster> put "money where your mouth is" so to speak
Apr 06 21:46:01 <thos> we haven't even got gta02 out the door, I just think it's a bit premature to be fussing about the next version after that
Apr 06 21:46:03 <raster> if u want 3g say "i will buy a gta03/405/whatever if it has 3g - otherwise i won't"
Apr 06 21:46:05 <raster> if it matters to you
Apr 06 21:46:09 <raster> otherwise buy it anyway
Apr 06 21:46:17 <raster> and it's not premature
Apr 06 21:46:27 <raster> we need to begin on 03/04 now
Apr 06 21:46:31 <raster> or they will be even later
Apr 06 21:46:37 <raster> it takes ramp-up time
Apr 06 21:47:02 <raster> but 3gvs2g is not my fight really
Apr 06 21:47:21 <raster> i am just letting u know how to get your voice heard :)
Apr 06 21:47:35 <thos> to be honest, form factor is more important to me anyway
Apr 06 21:47:37 <raster> (whatever that voice says)
Apr 06 21:47:37 <raster> i giver a crap about my screen and whats on it :)
Apr 06 21:47:46 <raster> i agree there
Apr 06 21:47:59 <raster> i want something slimmer and less.... rubbery-pucky
Apr 06 21:48:10 <ccfly> less is more ! :>
Apr 06 21:48:16 <raster> man - my rockr e6 is nicer
Apr 06 21:48:21 <thos> i want some less shitty buttons and better touch screen
Apr 06 21:48:21 <raster> and thats pretty bad
Apr 06 21:48:30 <raster> yeah
Apr 06 21:48:33 <raster> better touch screen
Apr 06 21:48:38 <thos> a ts flush with the casing
Apr 06 21:48:39 <raster> need to look at capacitive..
Apr 06 21:48:43 <thos> not this stupid bevel
Apr 06 21:48:44 <raster> yup
Apr 06 21:48:46 <raster> absolutely
Apr 06 21:48:51 <raster> i think we will have that
Apr 06 21:48:53 <cb22> multi touch :)
Apr 06 21:48:55 <ccfly> capacitive don't work with fingers ?!
Apr 06 21:49:02 <raster> multi-touch is not going to happen
Apr 06 21:49:05 <raster> trust me
Apr 06 21:49:05 <cb22> only*
Apr 06 21:49:06 <thos> multitouch is a gimic anyway
Apr 06 21:49:11 <thos> waste of time
Apr 06 21:49:14 <cb22> suppose so
Apr 06 21:49:19 <thos> it's not intuitive nor clever
Apr 06 21:49:19 <raster> it adds so much complication - we just dont need it
Apr 06 21:49:34 <raster> we have a long way to go for single-touch to be decent
Apr 06 21:49:35 <ccfly> well you can make gestures with single touch to it doesn't really matter I guess
Apr 06 21:49:38 <ccfly> so
Apr 06 21:50:52 <cb22> although a capacitive ts would be a lot better with fingers, wouldnt it? afaik it would only work with fingers or a special pen
Apr 06 21:50:58 <raster> what we do need is a just mroe usable ts
Apr 06 21:51:09 <raster> with light touching only needed - not a heavy press
Apr 06 21:51:25 <raster> cb22:  yes. much better for fingers. wont work with a stylus
Apr 06 21:51:32 <raster> need a special pen
Apr 06 21:51:43 <ccfly> there is an old stale info about capacitive being pen only and resistive beign touchable
Apr 06 21:51:49 <ccfly> fragmented sector in my brain I guess
Apr 06 21:51:50 <raster> and as such - fingers are great in-built stylus's
Apr 06 21:51:53 <raster> hard to lose them
Apr 06 21:51:53 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:52:07 <thos> you get dirty marks over the screen using fingers though
Apr 06 21:52:13 <cb22> unless you know some people in the russian mafia
Apr 06 21:52:51 <ccfly> now that would surely leave smudges all over the screen :)
Apr 06 21:53:01 <raster> thos: u get them anyway - my n800 has them... my rokr e6 has the,.. and i use a stylus with them
Apr 06 21:53:26 <raster> maybe if someone can come up with smudge-free "glass"
Apr 06 21:53:27 <raster> ...
Apr 06 21:53:28 <raster> :)
Apr 06 21:53:58 <ccfly> sure thing, black non-shiny plastic, smudge free
Apr 06 21:54:06 <ccfly> 0 degree vision
Apr 06 21:54:08 <ccfly> angle
Apr 06 21:54:21 <raster> hahahah
Apr 06 21:55:08 <ccfly> good night people, monday rears it's ugly head
Apr 06 21:55:19 <ccfly> workign' in the coal mine ....
Apr 06 21:55:21 <thos> maybe a matt screen would actually be better!
Apr 06 21:55:23 <ccfly> bye :>
Apr 06 21:55:41 <thos> certainly easier than gloss to glide fingers over
Apr 06 21:56:06 <raster> possibly
Apr 06 21:56:14 <raster> a matte surface might be nice
Apr 06 21:56:20 <raster> much like touchpads
Apr 06 21:56:27 <raster> (but see-through)
Apr 06 21:56:36 <cb22> ooh
Apr 06 21:56:44 <cb22> that would rock
Apr 06 21:56:55 <raster> in fact the whole thing could be that
Apr 06 21:57:02 <raster> go for matte as opposed to shiny
Apr 06 21:57:12 <raster> maybe a combo of matte and aluminium
Apr 06 21:57:30 <raster> whereas the iphone goes for shiny and glossy all around
Apr 06 21:57:32 <raster> be the opposite
Apr 06 21:57:34 <raster> matte
Apr 06 21:57:44 <raster> instead of chrome - aluminium
Apr 06 21:59:23 <zedstar_> yeh gun metal
Apr 06 21:59:55 <raster> dunhno if it's possible
Apr 06 22:00:03 <raster> i'll see what our ID guy can do - or thinks
Apr 06 22:03:43 <abraxa_> Intelligent Design?
Apr 06 22:03:54 <abraxa_> Or Industrial Design? ;)
Apr 06 22:05:06 <raster> industrial
Apr 06 22:05:08 <raster> :)
Apr 06 22:06:59 <josch> hrm... one week is over... do i get a tshirt now? ;)
Apr 06 22:52:01 <thos> i wonder what 129% battery charge means
Apr 06 22:53:47 <stefan_schmidt> thos: You can use it longer then expected? ;)
Apr 06 22:54:01 <thos> hrmr
Apr 06 22:54:31 <raster> thos:  gta02?
Apr 06 22:54:31 <thos> I wish we could read charge while it was actually charging :-/
Apr 06 22:54:36 <thos> yes
Apr 06 23:04:24 <mickey|bbl> well, w/ the coloumb counter battery we can. 
Apr 06 23:04:59 <mickey|bbl> gta02 battery handling with stock batteries is buggy atm.
Apr 06 23:06:00 <mickey|bbl> g'night
Apr 06 23:08:32 <raster> thos: aaah yes. i have seen much... interestign behavior there
Apr 06 23:08:39 <thos> still buggy?
Apr 06 23:08:45 <thos> it was working a little while ago
Apr 06 23:08:49 <thos> at around 60%
Apr 06 23:09:01 <raster> i've seen it jump fro 20% to 100%
Apr 06 23:09:10 <raster> but sit at like 10-20% all day
Apr 06 23:09:13 <raster> charging
Apr 06 23:09:19 <raster> for starters
Apr 06 23:09:22 <thos> weird
Apr 06 23:09:59 <thos> i was going to write a script like "sleep 60; touch /home/root/timer"
Apr 06 23:10:08 <thos> and leave it on battery all night
Apr 06 23:10:13 <thos> see what time it gives up
Apr 06 23:11:18 <thos> not much point if I don't know whether the battery is fully charged though
Apr 06 23:23:20 <summatusmentis> w00t! first of three PVT runs, and then mass production!
Apr 06 23:28:08 <abraxa_> Let's hope!
Apr 06 23:28:29 <summatusmentis> that's what the email to community said
Apr 06 23:32:06 <josch> dont know if this ever gets official but i added the second week including a first nominee: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Member_of_the_Week
Apr 06 23:34:18 <summatusmentis> what is openmoko-underground?
Apr 06 23:36:36 <josch> http://blog.automated.it/2008/03/01/the-underground-bubbles-to-the-surface/
Apr 06 23:36:52 <josch> http://www.vanille-media.de/images/Fosdem2008-Neo1973-high.m4v
Apr 06 23:37:15 <josch> http://neo1973-germany.de/wiki/Zad
Apr 06 23:37:31 <abraxa_> lmao josch
Apr 06 23:37:40 <abraxa_> It's as if you have been waiting for that question
Apr 06 23:37:48 <summatusmentis> :)
Apr 06 23:37:50 <josch> haha
Apr 06 23:39:05 <josch> it's an alternative gui for openmoko based on efl, dbus, python and the openphone api compliant python daemons that interface gsm, gps etc...
Apr 06 23:39:25 <josch> mickeyl is very fond on it and demonstrated it a lot
Apr 06 23:39:32 <josch> s/on/of/
Apr 06 23:39:33 <apt> josch meant: mickeyl is very fofd on it and demonstrated it a lot
Apr 06 23:39:39 <josch> hoho
Apr 06 23:39:40 <summatusmentis> :)
Apr 06 23:39:53 <summatusmentis> so it's a testbed?
Apr 06 23:40:14 <summatusmentis> is it ever intended to be used?
Apr 06 23:40:23 <abraxa_> When polished, yes
Apr 06 23:40:24 <josch> the python daemons are perfectly working prototypes of the ophone api
Apr 06 23:40:38 <summatusmentis> I see
Apr 06 23:40:49 <summatusmentis> nothing device related yet, I hope :)
Apr 06 23:40:57 <summatusmentis> because I've got dibs on that
Apr 06 23:41:04 <josch> in which way device related?
Apr 06 23:41:04 <abraxa_> Also, it shows the feasibility of python and EFL on the hardware
Apr 06 23:41:20 <kdean06> ScaredyCat is making images for that?
Apr 06 23:41:22 <josch> and the feasibility of dbus daemons
Apr 06 23:41:27 <josch> kdean06, yes he is
Apr 06 23:41:32 <abraxa_> kdean06: Nope
Apr 06 23:41:33 <josch> mickeyl too
Apr 06 23:41:36 <abraxa_> oh, he is?
Apr 06 23:41:37 <josch> abraxa_, not?
Apr 06 23:41:37 <kdean06> Is it a proof-of-concept or "the next line" ?
Apr 06 23:41:59 <abraxa_> josch: From what I know, mickey only made one single image by hand to demonstrate it to .tw folks
Apr 06 23:42:01 <josch> kdean06, it's stilll work in progress but works very well even in this stage
Apr 06 23:42:13 <summatusmentis> josch: odeviced
Apr 06 23:42:27 <josch> another remarkable thing is the gsm muxxer
Apr 06 23:42:46 <josch> with it you can have as many gsm or gprs channels as you like at the same time
Apr 06 23:43:15 <josch> so you can call so., download sth, and get sms
Apr 06 23:43:29 <summatusmentis> sth?
Apr 06 23:43:36 <josch> dont know why openmoko didnt provide a muxxer in the first place
Apr 06 23:43:41 <josch> sth= something
Apr 06 23:43:48 <summatusmentis> oh
Apr 06 23:44:14 <summatusmentis> most phone can at least do two of those, call and get sms
Apr 06 23:44:25 <josch> openmoko yet cannot
Apr 06 23:44:30 <josch> well must go to bed now
Apr 06 23:44:35 <josch> till tomorrow!
Apr 06 23:44:43 <abraxa_> Nighty night, josch
Apr 06 23:44:45 <kdean06> josch, I suppose my question is less "does it work" and more "is this going to end up on consumer ready devices". :) As far as I know this is a side-project and not official. BUt if it's the infancy of the new official line, I might want to take a REAL close look at it.
Apr 06 23:45:28 <josch> kdean06, it doesnt matter to me wether it is official or sth - it shows what the community can do given an open platform
Apr 06 23:45:57 <josch> abraxa_, i leave the explanation to you now ^^
Apr 06 23:46:00 <kdean06> :P
Apr 06 23:46:20 <abraxa_> kdean06: It's basically a test bed for the freesmartphone.org APIs - so you'll end up seeing the same APIs (maybe daemons even) on Openmoko eventually
Apr 06 23:47:18 <kdean06> :)
Apr 06 23:47:23 <abraxa_> As you might've heard, mickey is all about middleware these days. His freesmartphone.org project is defining the designs/APIs/semantics of these services
Apr 06 23:47:38 <kdean06> Yeah, I've heard. :)
Apr 06 23:47:56 <kdean06> middleware is a word that's been launched out of my inbox like kittens from a cannon recently. :P
Apr 06 23:48:12 <abraxa_> lol... in regards to OM?
Apr 06 23:48:27 <kdean06> "I decline to comment". 
Apr 06 23:48:33 <summatusmentis> FWIW, MS Word doesn't recognize the word middleware
Apr 06 23:48:49 <kdean06> abraxa_, May I /msg you for a moment?
Apr 06 23:49:09 <abraxa_> lol, no need to ask permission
Apr 06 23:49:14 <kdean06> Just making sure. :)
Apr 06 23:49:18 <abraxa_> And be it as it may, things are moving :)
Apr 07 00:01:16 <gambler> i saw planet.openmoko.org ...is this a veiled chinese way of saying the mass production has started
Apr 07 00:01:38 <abraxa_> rofl
Apr 07 00:02:03 <abraxa_> It's just Sean coming out of a crisis of some kind, it seems. Can only be good! :)
Apr 07 00:02:33 <gambler> hope so...also i notice the /title has changed too.
Apr 07 00:02:35 <summatusmentis> Sean coming out of a crisis, and toking it up hard core
Apr 07 00:03:03 <summatusmentis> the /topic you mean?
Apr 07 00:03:15 <summatusmentis> I guess I didn't notice that :)
Apr 07 00:03:37 * summatusmentis needs to find someone w/ sway, and pay them off
Apr 07 00:03:50 <summatusmentis> I don't think mickey|zzZZzz would take a bribe for me to get a GSoC position
Apr 07 00:04:15 <abraxa_> summatusmentis: I'd say your changes are pretty high.
Apr 07 00:04:40 <summatusmentis> abraxa_: you've said that :) I'm just getting anxious, and we dont'f find out for a while
Apr 07 00:27:26 <unknown_lamer> raster: you know about splay trees right? (for predictive text correction)
Apr 07 00:29:46 <raster> unknown_lamer: nup. don't look at me. i'm a graphics guy
Apr 07 00:29:51 <raster> not some text parsing mofo
Apr 07 00:29:51 <raster> :)
Apr 07 00:30:12 <raster> if i need stuff i tend to build it from first principles
Apr 07 00:30:15 <raster> i always have done so
Apr 07 00:30:28 <raster> i tend to learn a lot that way :)
Apr 07 00:30:49 <raster> but as such i do need an N-way trees
Apr 07 00:30:51 <raster> tree
Apr 07 00:31:07 <raster> whihc frankly can be an N-way tree of file offsets into /usr/share/dict/words
Apr 07 00:31:09 <raster> or whatever
Apr 07 00:31:25 <raster> dont even need binary
Apr 07 00:31:40 <raster> as i can limit my problemspace to N ways per level
Apr 07 00:32:09 <raster> (26 really - tho with accents etc. it could be more... but then again for western langs u can skip accepts and auto-correct themt.
Apr 07 00:32:28 <raster> i.e ? -> e when doing a lookup, but then the final word correction will have the ? in it)
Apr 07 00:33:40 <raster> so it'd equate E,e,?,?,?,?,?, as all the same char when doing a lookup)
Apr 07 00:34:02 <raster> no need for dynamic insert and modify
Apr 07 00:34:10 <raster> the lookusp will happen on primarily static data
Apr 07 00:34:56 <unknown_lamer> raster: a splay tree tends to be optimal for doing text prediction and with a few fancy algorithms can be used for correction (resplaying the tree lets you access nearby words and such cheaply)
Apr 07 00:35:09 <mjr> heh; "have five copies of yuv blending code (unaccelerated, bytewise..., we had to call the ambulance for raster...)"
Apr 07 00:35:24 <raster> heheheh
Apr 07 00:35:25 <raster> :)
Apr 07 00:35:50 <unknown_lamer> raster: you have to think about cache and such since the ARM has so little and hitting memory hurts ... a 26 way tree would have very painful node size overhead
Apr 07 00:36:00 <unknown_lamer> raster: and usually most of thsoe 26 buckets would be empty
Apr 07 00:36:18 <raster> thats a good question actually
Apr 07 00:36:25 <raster> at the base they will be pretty full
Apr 07 00:36:31 <raster> later on they will thin out
Apr 07 00:36:38 <raster> i'
Apr 07 00:36:41 <raster> ll read up on splay trees
Apr 07 00:36:50 <raster> but for now my focus is in fast implementation
Apr 07 00:36:52 <raster> minimal code
Apr 07 00:36:54 <unknown_lamer> whereas with the splay tree you should get good cache performance if it is stored in memory properly (accessing nearby elements most of the time)
Apr 07 00:36:57 <raster> can improve it later
Apr 07 00:37:20 <raster> i 3was intendiing to write it to a mmap()ed file
Apr 07 00:37:21 <unknown_lamer> splay trees are implementable in maybe a hundred lines of code (at least purely functionally ... dunno what evil things being imperative does to it)
Apr 07 00:37:23 <raster> and mmap it
Apr 07 00:38:14 <raster> ooh ewww
Apr 07 00:38:16 <raster> hmm
Apr 07 00:38:22 <raster> i'll be modifying this in memory as i go
Apr 07 00:38:23 <raster> hmm
Apr 07 00:38:28 <raster> there goes the idea of just mmaping it
Apr 07 00:44:05 * SpeedEvil passes raster a MMU that does YUV conversion magically in aliased memory spaces.
Apr 07 00:44:10 <unknown_lamer> raster: it might be less work to just add the needed interface to libaspell
Apr 07 00:46:02 <SpeedEvil> raster: would you happen to know of any nice DCT/IDCT transform tutorials ?
Apr 07 00:47:34 <unknown_lamer> raster: (given that aspell already efficiently does the boring difficult parts)
Apr 07 01:02:25 <raster> SpeedEvil: you'd be a god... if u had one of them
Apr 07 01:02:42 <raster> SpeedEvil: while u're at it have it do multi-tap sampling and other colorspace conversions too :)
Apr 07 01:02:44 <raster> actually
Apr 07 01:02:47 <SpeedEvil> :)
Apr 07 01:02:54 <raster> while u do that - just put the gpu into the cpu - as that's what u're doing
Apr 07 01:02:54 <raster> :)
Apr 07 01:03:07 <raster> (and teach the mmu how to be able to do tiled pixel-space mapping)
Apr 07 01:03:25 <SpeedEvil> I was looking at the 'bit banding' options on the Cortex CPUs.
Apr 07 01:03:28 <SpeedEvil> Fun.
Apr 07 01:04:45 <raster> as for DCT/IDCT - nup sorry. can't point. never actually implemented one
Apr 07 01:04:51 <SpeedEvil> K.
Apr 07 01:04:54 <raster> i've always found libjpeg's to be most optimal for me
Apr 07 01:04:55 <raster> :)
Apr 07 01:05:02 <SpeedEvil> Not in 20K of RAM :)
Apr 07 01:05:05 <roh> SpeedEvil cortex looks fine.. i mean.. for an arm
Apr 07 01:05:06 <SpeedEvil> (well - fast RAM)
Apr 07 01:05:06 <raster> aaah
Apr 07 01:05:07 <raster> well yes
Apr 07 01:05:10 <raster> u have an issue there
Apr 07 01:05:11 <raster> :)
Apr 07 01:05:19 <SpeedEvil> I have a bit-banged SDRAM too.
Apr 07 01:05:25 <SpeedEvil> But that's slow for byte access
Apr 07 01:05:32 <roh> there is no byte access.
Apr 07 01:05:39 <raster> unknown_lamer:  the problem is then i'll be adding api and depend on it in aspell with no guarantee of it going upstream. it means we need to maintain a patch against aspell
Apr 07 01:05:47 <raster> i'm just wary of that
Apr 07 01:06:07 <SpeedEvil> I mean any quantity under 64 bytes or so, the setup is quite nasty.
Apr 07 01:10:49 <rtm> I've just installed a new rootfs, and am trying to get the gpsd to work again.   I've reinstalled gllin and gpsd, but gpsd refuses to run because there is no /dev/ttyS3.  Does anyone know what step I've neglected to perform?   What creates the /dev/ttyS3 device for gpsd to use?
Apr 07 01:11:57 <SpeedEvil> S3?
Apr 07 01:12:01 <SpeedEvil> you mean ttySAC0?
Apr 07 01:12:16 <SpeedEvil> you mean ttySAC1?
Apr 07 01:12:27 <SpeedEvil> the serial driver should - early in boot
Apr 07 01:12:45 <rtm> nope, I mean /dev/ttyS3.   The gpsd package , by default, wants to listen to that device.
Apr 07 01:12:52 <SpeedEvil> Odd.
Apr 07 01:13:33 <rtm> I agree.   I got things to work before, but I didn't keep good notes (won't make that mistake again!) and I don't remember dealing with this problem.
Apr 07 01:15:07 <SpeedEvil> It should be trying to read from the named pipe /tmp/nmeaP I think
Apr 07 01:15:44 <rtm> I'll try modifying the config file in /etc/default, to make it do that.
Apr 07 01:27:40 <rtm> SpeedEvil: That seems to have worked.   Thanks for your help.
Apr 07 01:27:45 <SpeedEvil> :)
Apr 07 02:00:57 <unknown_lamer> raster: have you looked at the lower levels of the api (assuming a reasonable design in aspell)? Perhaps you could build it as an external library that used those
Apr 07 02:01:10 <unknown_lamer> raster: or just email them and see if they are interesting in a progressive scanning interface
Apr 07 02:17:09 <roh> c
Apr 07 02:18:34 <mwester> c?
Apr 07 02:18:44 <mwester> si senor.
Apr 07 02:24:07 <roh> mwester: well.. i thought of a and b before but decided c is ok
Apr 07 02:28:27 <raster> unknown_lamer: i looked at aspell.h
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Apr 07 02:59:56 2008