**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 15 02:59:56 2008
Apr 15 03:03:53 <rtm> My neo has started issuing the message "Unknown HZ value! (84) Assume 100." - does anyone know what this means?
Apr 15 03:19:11 <mwester> rtm: that it's not keeping time very well?
Apr 15 03:19:24 <mwester> Did you reflash anything, or did it just do this out of the blue?
Apr 15 03:20:18 <rtm> The only change is that I installed an 8 GByte microSD card.
Apr 15 03:20:54 <rtm> And yes, it is keeping time very poorly.
Apr 15 03:22:31 <Issac-S> $399 US, that is a nice price... Now, all I need is a date.
Apr 15 03:23:11 <rtm> I need a date too, but that has nothing to do with OM.
Apr 15 03:23:39 <Issac-S> Oh, I am in that boat too.
Apr 15 03:35:43 <RedDog> ScaredyCat: as you wondered about 1345, did you mean 1341 instead of 1337?
Apr 15 03:43:16 <doc|home> so, steve talks about going the open route. Is he really saying they plan to compete on a quality device? that's never going to work! :)
Apr 15 03:43:31 * doc|home looks forward to the gta 03 too
Apr 15 03:43:40 <doc|home> it'll *have* to kick ass
Apr 15 03:47:18 <summatusmentis> I get the impression that Steve is talking about not trying to take over the market
Apr 15 03:47:54 <doc|home> I've no problem with fic winning massive market share once there's good reason for it
Apr 15 03:49:07 <summatusmentis> right, but I get the impression that at this point, it's not OpenMokos plan
Apr 15 03:52:55 <doc|home> I'd hope it is :)
Apr 15 03:53:21 <doc|home> even if not with the gta02 they should still sell well
Apr 15 03:58:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1347 has been created by reddog(AT)mastersword.de
Apr 15 03:58:01 <cdbot2> * * Double suspend (second suspend right after resume)
Apr 15 03:58:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1347
Apr 15 04:16:57 <unknown_lamer> hrm, I wonder why the OE package for bdb is stuck at 4.3
Apr 15 04:17:11 <unknown_lamer> I hope it's just that no one has bothered updating it and not some evil arm incompatibility
Apr 15 04:50:36 <doc|home> hahaha, snuff videos of the destructive testing, nice...
Apr 15 04:57:01 <dvarnes> doc|home: url ?
Apr 15 04:59:36 <doc|home> dvarnes: none, someone requested them on the mailing list
Apr 15 04:59:38 <doc|home> :)
Apr 15 04:59:47 <dvarnes> ahh  :-)
Apr 15 05:12:33 <Hopscotch> good morning
Apr 15 05:13:07 <summatusmentis> hi
Apr 15 06:29:47 <CM> Morning
Apr 15 06:36:01 <t_s_o> hmm, now to find a way to justify buying a freerunner :)
Apr 15 06:38:45 <flexd> Uhm, sort of a stupid question:
Apr 15 06:38:48 <flexd> The accelerometers
Apr 15 06:38:58 <flexd> They show the amount the phone is MOVING right?
Apr 15 06:39:13 <flexd> not what angle it's at and such?
Apr 15 06:39:36 <flexd> like http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/files/2008/04/81db03e78db4a5dc4e2ee9977bd44571.png ,he must be moving the phone at that point (the accelerometer numbers)
Apr 15 06:42:36 <CM> flexd: The accelerometers measure acceleration, but I don't know what values thos is showing on that image :)
Apr 15 06:42:47 <CM> motion != acceleration
Apr 15 06:43:32 <CM> Maybe they show angles, in some odd units
Apr 15 06:44:29 <mib_csgmqrim> I've worked with the wii, as I work for my bachelor thesis - gesture recognition for the wii
Apr 15 06:44:49 <mib_csgmqrim> here's how you could compute roll and pitch http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis
Apr 15 06:45:49 <mib_csgmqrim> the accelerometers show mainly two things
Apr 15 06:46:00 <mib_csgmqrim> static acceleration when you're in the +-1G values
Apr 15 06:46:13 <mib_csgmqrim> and dynamic acceleration when you go above these values
Apr 15 06:46:56 <CM> mib_csgmqrim: Thanks for the facts :)
Apr 15 06:51:14 <flexd> I was basically thinking of being able to decide things based on motion/how the device is held
Apr 15 06:56:13 <methril> morning
Apr 15 07:40:58 <ScaredyCat> thos: you moo'd ?
Apr 15 07:43:27 <SpeedEvil> CM: see technical:accelerometer in the wiki
Apr 15 07:43:45 * CM takes a look
Apr 15 07:45:01 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer
Apr 15 07:45:15 <CM> Already half down the page ;)
Apr 15 07:46:59 <SpeedEvil> Some of the numbers on the page are significantly better than reality due to the sorts of accels used in the freerunner
Apr 15 07:47:37 <CM> As long as there's a light saber app I'll be happy :P
Apr 15 07:54:25 <thomasg_> CM, therefore you'd have to read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Howto_Holographic_Display first
Apr 15 07:56:09 <borza> since I worked with the adxl330 which is inside the nintendo wii, I wonder what does 20 times worse mean
Apr 15 07:56:22 <borza> if you hold the phone still, the values will change constantly?
Apr 15 07:56:32 <borza> and within what limits
Apr 15 07:57:21 <borza> the nintendo wii has an error of ~0.03 when I keep it still on the table
Apr 15 08:02:45 <SpeedEvil> borza: it has 20* the noise
Apr 15 08:03:03 <SpeedEvil> 16mg/s^2, compared to around 1mg
Apr 15 08:03:16 <SpeedEvil> At a bandwidth of around 1Hz IIRC
Apr 15 08:06:32 <ScaredyCat> why so much noise SpeedEvil?
Apr 15 08:08:12 <borza> 0.6G is a LOT of noise
Apr 15 08:09:11 <SpeedEvil> 16mG
Apr 15 08:09:16 <SpeedEvil> not 0.6G
Apr 15 08:09:51 <SpeedEvil> That's 16cm/s^2 - a velocity uncertainty of 16cm/s after 1s
Apr 15 08:10:20 * ScaredyCat tries to understand....
Apr 15 08:10:35 <ScaredyCat> if they are so bad - why have them?
Apr 15 08:10:47 <SpeedEvil> They are not bad - for some purposes.
Apr 15 08:10:51 <borza> it was probably a misunderstanding - i said 0.03G and you said 20* and then i multiplied
Apr 15 08:11:26 <SpeedEvil> .03G is _substantially_ worse than the ADXL303 type device in the Wii can do - if used properly with correct input circuitry.
Apr 15 08:11:27 <ScaredyCat> ok, so what uses are 'good' ones
Apr 15 08:11:29 <borza> do you have a phone near you, I am curios what values does the accel generate when you keep it on the table
Apr 15 08:11:48 <SpeedEvil> The datasheet - when I last looked at it - diddn't admit any noise.
Apr 15 08:11:58 <ScaredyCat> shake to wake == good? (since it's fairly violent)
Apr 15 08:12:15 <SpeedEvil> Simply the quantisation error that comes from putting a +-2G range into 8 bits.
Apr 15 08:12:25 <SpeedEvil> To put this into perspective.
Apr 15 08:12:28 <ScaredyCat> portrait to landscape == good?
Apr 15 08:13:04 <SpeedEvil> The ADXL303 type chips can get an angular accuracy - measuring where down is - to within about .3 degrees or so.
Apr 15 08:13:25 <SpeedEvil> The one in the freerunner will measure it to maybe 3-4 degrees.
Apr 15 08:13:41 <ScaredyCat> ok, well, that's not so bad then is it..
Apr 15 08:13:42 <SpeedEvil> So you can see that they are far from useless - just that they are not as useful as they might be.
Apr 15 08:13:57 <SpeedEvil> The problem comes in applications where you try to push the limits.
Apr 15 08:14:03 <ScaredyCat> right...
Apr 15 08:14:13 <SpeedEvil> For example, using them to measure secondary effects - like rotations.
Apr 15 08:14:16 <borza> I'm looking from the acceleromter gestures perspective to these accelerometers
Apr 15 08:14:30 <SpeedEvil> Which they basically can't do - unless htey are very violent.
Apr 15 08:14:32 <SpeedEvil> Ooops
Apr 15 08:14:40 <SpeedEvil> to clarify - rotations about the gravity axis.
Apr 15 08:14:41 <ScaredyCat> I liked the idea someone came up with....
Apr 15 08:15:05 <ScaredyCat> the phone rings, you don;t want to answer it so you turn it face down and it mutes the ring
Apr 15 08:15:49 <SpeedEvil> That sort of stuff is all fairly simple and possible. (if you're not in motion)
Apr 15 08:15:59 <borza> how about, the phone rings, you pick it up and take it to your ear, and it answers automatically
Apr 15 08:16:10 <SpeedEvil> that too - it's on the wiki somewhere
Apr 15 08:16:35 <borza> i wrote about it on the list devel
Apr 15 08:16:41 <borza> for the gsoc
Apr 15 08:16:58 <SpeedEvil> Utterly not worth $4000
Apr 15 08:17:16 <SpeedEvil> A generalised gesture framework - yes
Apr 15 08:17:37 <ScaredyCat> learning gesture system... ?
Apr 15 08:17:53 <borza> of course, i was not talking about a single gesture
Apr 15 08:17:55 <ScaredyCat> teach it the gesture for an action...
Apr 15 08:18:11 <borza> exactly
Apr 15 08:18:41 <borza> you could define your own gestures and associate them to actions
Apr 15 08:25:33 <SpeedEvil> On gestures - http://youtube.com/watch?v=aXdtUISSHuo
Apr 15 08:49:39 <robtaylor> stefan_schmidt: pong?
Apr 15 08:51:07 <torpor> hi guys
Apr 15 08:51:26 <torpor> i'm going to get the group buy going for the freerunner - has anyone got the URL for that page on the wiki handy?
Apr 15 08:52:04 <thos> ScaredyCat, yeah, did you try my theme yet :-P
Apr 15 08:55:54 <mbuf> torpor, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Local_Groups ?
Apr 15 09:10:23 <ScaredyCat> torpor: yes
Apr 15 09:10:38 <torpor> great thanks mbuf
Apr 15 09:10:46 <torpor> i'm going to get a 10pack of freerunners ASAP .. 
Apr 15 09:11:13 <ScaredyCat> can you increase the size of the tnof in combo/dropdown boxes
Apr 15 09:12:41 * ScaredyCat has a 10 pack....
Apr 15 09:12:59 <ScaredyCat> imaginary 10 pack for imaginary friends...
Apr 15 09:13:09 * mjr has his 10-pack full :)
Apr 15 09:14:05 <mbuf> is there an ncurses interface available on the Neo, instead of matchbox?
Apr 15 09:14:23 <mjr> "no, but you're welcome to do it"
Apr 15 09:14:33 <mbuf> mjr, ok
Apr 15 09:14:51 <mjr> there's already someone setting up a second 10-pack for Helsinki :)
Apr 15 09:15:39 <ljp> ScaredyCat: why no qtopia phone images at buildhost.automated.it?
Apr 15 09:15:41 <torpor> i wanna order ASAP
Apr 15 09:16:51 <ScaredyCat> ljp: gimmie 10 mins, I've built it... but I haven't done my rsync 
Apr 15 09:17:55 <mjr> hm, anyone doing/done call recording software yet btw?
Apr 15 09:18:01 <ScaredyCat> it's on my build schedule so it'll happen magically now..
Apr 15 09:18:21 * ScaredyCat did have a strange problem with it though,,,,
Apr 15 09:18:34 <ScaredyCat> no gsm stuff, didn't see the network at all :(
Apr 15 09:29:18 <thos> hrm
Apr 15 09:29:24 <thos> ScaredyCat, where you trying to talk to me?
Apr 15 09:29:35 <ScaredyCat> trying?
Apr 15 09:29:38 <ScaredyCat> what?
Apr 15 09:32:14 <ScaredyCat> ahh.. now I see it
Apr 15 09:32:28 <ScaredyCat> thos: yes
Apr 15 09:32:41 <ScaredyCat> [2008-04-15 10:09:16] <ScaredyCat> can you increase the size of the tnof in combo/dropdown boxes
Apr 15 09:34:15 <ljp> ScaredyCat: gta01?
Apr 15 09:34:22 <ScaredyCat> yes
Apr 15 09:35:05 <ljp> i will look into that tomorrow,. been working on 4.4 lately
Apr 15 09:35:05 <ScaredyCat> there's an image upthere now and the ipks are being uploaded
Apr 15 09:35:11 <ScaredyCat> ah ok
Apr 15 09:35:25 <ljp> thanks
Apr 15 09:41:16 <ScaredyCat> np
Apr 15 09:43:03 <ljp> whats the qtopia-core image?
Apr 15 09:44:22 <thos> ScaredyCat, the tnof?
Apr 15 09:44:44 <ScaredyCat> ljp: ignore it...
Apr 15 09:44:52 <ScaredyCat> it's just the base system
Apr 15 09:45:02 <ScaredyCat> thos: font
Apr 15 09:45:57 <thos> oh
Apr 15 09:46:00 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1348 has been created by reddog(AT)mastersword.de
Apr 15 09:46:01 <cdbot2> * * Can't figure out how much mony is left on my prepaid card
Apr 15 09:46:02 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1348
Apr 15 10:35:45 <ScaredyCat> http://vanderled.com/onlinestore/product_info.php/cPath/49_48_54/products_id/80
Apr 15 10:38:36 <CM> ScaredyCat: Hehe.. I like the * Little bit waterproof 
Apr 15 10:38:44 <ScaredyCat> hehe yeah
Apr 15 10:42:09 <CIA-41> openmoko: 03sean_chiang * r4359 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-dialer2/src/phone-kit/dialer-main.c: change state when headset in/out
Apr 15 11:15:13 <CIA-41> openmoko: 03sean_chiang * r4360 10/trunk/src/target/audio/om-gta02/gsmhandset.state: loud the volume of receiver because the change of hw
Apr 15 11:59:30 <cb22> afternoon :)
Apr 15 12:14:43 <spyre> mickeyl: Hi, have you tried/looked at gsmd? :)
Apr 15 12:14:59 <spyre> +2
Apr 15 12:16:39 <mickeyl> spyre: only briefly, there's just too much going on *sigh*
Apr 15 12:17:02 <mickeyl> spyre: I will do the changes in the fso API we talked about this week (moving certain functions from PB and SMS to SIM)
Apr 15 12:17:24 <mickeyl> i'll also (finally) publish the whole framework idea on the wiki this week
Apr 15 12:17:25 <spyre> mickeyl: Good, actually I had couple of other comments about API aswell
Apr 15 12:17:33 <mickeyl> so we all have a better idea how this should work as a whole
Apr 15 12:17:34 <CM> Interesting :)
Apr 15 12:17:48 <spyre> mickeyl: IMHO the wiki needs to be reordered
Apr 15 12:18:08 <spyre> mickeyl: hepaajan also thought about adding an entry ot the wiki about gsmd2
Apr 15 12:18:23 <mickeyl> spyre: sure thing, please go ahead and do what's necessary-
Apr 15 12:18:38 <mickeyl> i finally settled on a documentation format
Apr 15 12:18:45 <mickeyl> a small xslt transfer sheet will do it
Apr 15 12:18:54 <mickeyl> at least we can get away from doing <!---- ;)
Apr 15 12:19:10 <mickeyl> will write to the mailing list tomorrow
Apr 15 12:19:12 <spyre> reordering the wiki is not something I'd feel comfortable doing, but I think we'll add gsmd2 entry there though :)
Apr 15 12:19:25 <spyre> mickeyl: sounds good :)
Apr 15 12:19:40 <mickeyl> spyre: understood, then feel free to write the API comments and the Reordering needs to the mailing list and I'll take the job :)
Apr 15 12:21:10 <spyre> mickeyl: I don't have an exact idea what to do with it, but I recall walking to at least two persons desk to point out how to find freesmartphone's repository url in the wiki ;)
Apr 15 12:21:47 <spyre> mickeyl: org.freesmartphone.Network.ListProviders and RegisterWithProvider, how about replacing index with provider code/signatur that at+cops commands use?
Apr 15 12:24:08 <spyre> mickeyl: Call interface could also have somekind of List methods (ListCalls?) and also what should Phonebook.GetStorageInfo return?
Apr 15 12:24:16 <mickeyl> spyre: hehe, right, the code needs to be more visible
Apr 15 12:24:32 <mickeyl> ok, one step after another
Apr 15 12:24:40 <mickeyl> i thought we do it by email, but ok with me here
Apr 15 12:24:56 <spyre> mickeyl: I was just about to ask I you'd prefer I'd email about these :)
Apr 15 12:24:58 <mickeyl> org.freesmartphone.Network.ListProviders and RegisterWithProvider: yes, index should be the numerical index. makes much sense
Apr 15 12:26:07 <mickeyl> ListActiveCalls 
Apr 15 12:26:12 <mickeyl> i _swear_ it was in there :)
Apr 15 12:26:18 <mickeyl> must have been dropped by edits
Apr 15 12:26:21 <mickeyl> will readd it again
Apr 15 12:26:31 <spyre> ok :)
Apr 15 12:26:42 <mickeyl> phonebook.getstorage... phew
Apr 15 12:26:56 <mickeyl> actually
Apr 15 12:26:56 <mickeyl> i want to get rid of phonebook
Apr 15 12:26:56 <mickeyl> let me explain
Apr 15 12:27:11 <mickeyl> phonebook was supposed to be the low level interface matching closely the 07.07 spec
Apr 15 12:27:19 <mickeyl> but that is insane to support. so many features we don't need
Apr 15 12:27:37 <mickeyl> so i think we add the storage-based high level interface
Apr 15 12:27:44 <mickeyl> and put a small subset of phonebook to the SIM 
Apr 15 12:28:00 <mickeyl> just enough to be able to copy entries between main memory and SIM
Apr 15 12:28:08 <mickeyl> we're not a feature phone ;)
Apr 15 12:28:18 <spyre> mickeyl: ok :)
Apr 15 12:30:49 <spyre> mickeyl: gsmd2 currently supports a great deal of fso api.. there are some methods (like the getstorageinfo) that I was never quite sure which at commands they "map" to
Apr 15 12:31:26 <spyre> mickeyl: I was thinking that something to clarify that would be good to add to wiki
Apr 15 12:31:35 <spyre> mickeyl: for example Release -> AT+CHUP
Apr 15 12:31:43 <mickeyl> aah
Apr 15 12:31:48 <mickeyl> that's actually a good idea
Apr 15 12:31:57 <mickeyl> where the mapping is direct, we should add hints on how to implement this
Apr 15 12:32:03 <mickeyl> so people have an idea what we're talking about
Apr 15 12:32:04 <mickeyl> heh
Apr 15 12:32:08 <spyre> mickeyl: yep :)
Apr 15 12:32:26 <mickeyl> understood. but this should be all part of the xml file in doc entries
Apr 15 12:32:34 <mickeyl> i want the wiki to only contain high level docu
Apr 15 12:32:44 <mickeyl> linking to the actual docparsed files in svn
Apr 15 12:32:51 <mickeyl> so we don't have to keep both current
Apr 15 12:33:09 <spyre> mickeyl: exactly
Apr 15 12:33:35 <mickeyl> ~lart dbus team for not having thought about that right from the start
Apr 15 12:33:35 * apt gives dbus team an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending dbus team to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple for not having thought about that right from the start
Apr 15 12:34:24 <spyre> mickeyl: if you make some basis for this "mapping" to the xml files in the doc entries, I can help out with the one's I've figured out with gsmd2 ;)
Apr 15 12:34:37 <mickeyl> spyre: deal! :)
Apr 15 12:34:40 * mickeyl nots
Apr 15 12:34:44 <mickeyl> notes, even
Apr 15 12:35:30 <spyre> mickeyl: We could also have some example replies added there aswell
Apr 15 12:35:56 <spyre> gsm modem's replies to those commands I mean
Apr 15 12:38:22 <mickeyl> oh yeah, definitely
Apr 15 12:38:39 <mickeyl> that turns the fs.o doc into a nice manual that's even helpful for people implementing 07.07
Apr 15 12:38:50 <mickeyl> because the spec is .... *censored* :D)
Apr 15 12:39:00 <spyre> tell em about out.. *sigh*
Apr 15 12:39:08 <spyre> me
Apr 15 12:39:40 <spyre> I have some replies from modem in gsmd2's comments so I can add them aswell
Apr 15 12:40:25 <mickeyl> cool
Apr 15 12:40:36 <mickeyl> ok, this is top priority. i try to get this started this week
Apr 15 12:40:59 <mickeyl> sparetime is overrated
Apr 15 12:41:00 <mickeyl> *cough*
Apr 15 12:42:31 <ScaredyCat> *blink*
Apr 15 12:45:02 <spyre> mickeyl: :D
Apr 15 12:45:51 <spyre> mickeyl: I would also like to have those deprecated methods removed so I don't accidentally implement them :)
Apr 15 12:46:23 <spyre> mickeyl: btw I don't know if you noticed, I added rudimentary muxing support for gsmd2. I'll have to test it once I get proper hardware
Apr 15 12:47:26 <mickeyl> did you implement 07.10 in gsmd2 or use gsmd0710muxd
Apr 15 12:47:26 <mickeyl> ?
Apr 15 12:47:37 <mickeyl> (remove deprecated methods) yes!
Apr 15 12:48:12 <spyre> mickeyl: added support for having several serial ports, so by using gsmd0710muxd
Apr 15 12:49:09 <mickeyl> excellent
Apr 15 12:49:22 <mickeyl> gsm0710muxd feels really good. i love its API
Apr 15 12:49:35 <mickeyl> it may have some problems still (concerning PSOC), but we can iron that out
Apr 15 12:50:09 <mickeyl> it's so good I even stop talking about a kernel MUXer :D
Apr 15 12:50:14 <mickeyl> emdete, do you hear me? :)
Apr 15 12:50:22 <spyre> heheh :)
Apr 15 13:36:37 <emdete> re
Apr 15 13:37:21 <emdete> mickey|bbiab: :D thanks alot... nice to head.
Apr 15 13:37:27 <emdete> s/head/hear/
Apr 15 13:37:27 <apt> emdete meant: mickey|bbiab: :D thanks alot... nice to hear.
Apr 15 13:38:33 <emdete> spyre: if you encounter any problems with gsmd0710muxd please let me know, i will take a look on it immediatly
Apr 15 13:39:52 <mjr> should install the muxer myself... but too busy with other stuff
Apr 15 13:40:01 <mjr> holiday next week, yum
Apr 15 13:41:04 <spyre> emdete: sure thing
Apr 15 13:49:13 <emdete> mjr: with the right gsmd on top you don't even feel the muxer
Apr 15 13:49:29 <emdete> ;)
Apr 15 13:49:30 * mickey|bbiab smiles
Apr 15 13:49:33 <mickey|bbiab> "with the right gsmd"
Apr 15 13:49:50 <emdete> mickeyl: yes, i.e. libgsmd with your wrapper ;)
Apr 15 13:51:05 <mickeyl> *cough*
Apr 15 13:51:36 * mickeyl starts cleaning up http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenmokoFramework with throwing away the old page
Apr 15 14:03:58 <pyknite> TRIsoft: idle?
Apr 15 14:04:16 <TRIsoft> pyknite: Yep
Apr 15 14:04:29 <pyknite> i've a question
Apr 15 14:04:35 <pyknite> for preorder
Apr 15 14:05:51 <TRIsoft> pyknite: Yes
Apr 15 14:05:56 <pyknite> TRIsoft: I want to preorder in your shop, but my creditcard dont allow me to buy on internet (i have a postcard from the swiss post)
Apr 15 14:07:17 <pyknite> TRIsoft: but I can pay with an IBAN, so can I complete the form on you website and pay by IBAN after?
Apr 15 14:07:46 <TRIsoft> pyknite: No problem. Just write "pay in advance" in the credit card field
Apr 15 14:08:04 <pyknite> ok
Apr 15 14:08:12 <pyknite> thx
Apr 15 14:10:52 <pyknite> ok, preordering done ;)
Apr 15 14:12:36 <TRIsoft> pyknite: :-)
Apr 15 14:13:42 <pyknite> TRIsoft: I juste forget my mail in the first command, I added them in a other command
Apr 15 14:15:36 <maroi> TRIsoft, maybe you should add a title above email and telephone number because if you don't add a "lieferaddresse" you overlook those fields
Apr 15 14:16:58 * SpeedEvil reads discussion on orange neos on community.
Apr 15 14:17:06 * SpeedEvil wants mithril!
Apr 15 14:17:56 <ScaredyCat> can anyone get to http://www.angstrom-distribution.org or is it farked for you all too ?
Apr 15 14:18:16 <SpeedEvil> ...
Apr 15 14:18:18 <SpeedEvil> stalled
Apr 15 14:18:26 <DPThought> whatever farked it, it probably is :)
Apr 15 14:18:33 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: should go for goldplating... appeal to the 'early bling adopters'
Apr 15 14:18:36 <SpeedEvil> Still going.
Apr 15 14:18:47 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - but mithril is more scratchproof.
Apr 15 14:18:55 <SpeedEvil> And lighter.
Apr 15 14:19:01 <pyknite> ScaredyCat: don't work for me
Apr 15 14:19:08 <ScaredyCat> :(
Apr 15 14:19:10 <ScaredyCat> thanks
Apr 15 14:19:23 <pyknite> ScaredyCat: np ;)
Apr 15 14:20:15 <DPThought> the community list is becmming more and more useless. Why can't people understand that all hardware design is more or less fixed. All that wasted efford for usesless discussions. :(
Apr 15 14:21:03 <ScaredyCat> rubbish.. I can still get my hardware keyboard added before the end of the week ;)
Apr 15 14:21:32 <DPThought> ScaredyCat: with some hot glue perhaps... :)
Apr 15 14:23:13 <CIA-41> openmoko: 03thomas * r4361 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (configure.ac opkg.h.in): opkg: remove redundant opkg.h.in
Apr 15 14:25:48 <ScaredyCat> :)
Apr 15 14:27:24 <TRIsoft> maroi: Thanks for the hint. A few people managed to order w/o email and phone#. Makes it pretty hard to contact them ;-)
Apr 15 14:28:09 <maroi> TRIsoft, same would've happend to me but i did not yet send the preorder ;)
Apr 15 14:28:28 <maroi> oops, was that sentence correct?
Apr 15 14:28:59 <TRIsoft> maroi: I think so
Apr 15 14:29:47 <maroi> ok thx ;)
Apr 15 14:29:50 <trickie_> TRIsoft: yeah one of those people was me :)
Apr 15 14:30:01 <trickie_> sorted now though, ta
Apr 15 14:30:34 <maroi> .oO( or add a script that checks the contents of the required fields... )
Apr 15 14:31:19 <zash> INPUT VALIDATION!
Apr 15 14:32:02 <ScaredyCat> wtf
Apr 15 14:32:12 <zash> gah
Apr 15 14:32:37 <thos> ScaredyCat, we could make the whole interface font bigger of course
Apr 15 14:32:38 <TRIsoft> maroi: And people complaining about using JavaScript and stuff... No thanks.
Apr 15 14:32:51 <maroi> you don't have to use javascript for that.. 
Apr 15 14:33:20 <TRIsoft> maroi: Sure, and i admit that the preorder thingy was quick'n'dirty. But it's safe and it works.
Apr 15 14:33:22 <zash> TRIsoft: the preorder link in the left column leads to yoss.de and my browser complains about the cert being for www.
Apr 15 14:33:29 <zash> this page: http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm
Apr 15 14:33:57 <CIA-41> openmoko: 03thomas * r4362 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (Makefile.am opkg.c opkg.h): 
Apr 15 14:33:57 <CIA-41> openmoko: opkg: start new libopkg api in opkg.{c,h} and remove all other header files
Apr 15 14:33:57 <CIA-41> openmoko:  from being copied to includes
Apr 15 14:34:00 <TRIsoft> zash: cert is for yoss.de - that's our shop server.
Apr 15 14:34:39 <ScaredyCat> thos: yes, I think that would be good...
Apr 15 14:35:22 <ScaredyCat> TRIsoft: why aren't you called yoss then ?
Apr 15 14:35:36 <thos> ScaredyCat, any preference? there is a gconf key for it
Apr 15 14:36:00 <ScaredyCat> big enought for fat fingers :)
Apr 15 14:36:03 <ScaredyCat> enough
Apr 15 14:37:33 <wurp2|away> Is there a US preorder now?  I paged back through preorder conversation, but I don't see any US link...
Apr 15 14:38:19 <ScaredyCat> £100 off hte iphone tommorrow @ o2 (uk)
Apr 15 14:38:24 <summatusmentis> wurp2: I didn't see any eaither a couple of days ago
Apr 15 14:38:53 * SpeedEvil was surprised to see 1TB drives at 99 quid.
Apr 15 14:39:09 <thos> ooh, where?
Apr 15 14:39:20 <ScaredyCat> 1tb 99 quid?
Apr 15 14:39:21 <Stephmw> ebuyer wasn't it?
Apr 15 14:39:22 <ScaredyCat> wtf
Apr 15 14:39:40 * ScaredyCat straps it to the back of neo
Apr 15 14:39:46 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Apr 15 14:40:06 <zash> ScaredyCat: but how to power the drive?
Apr 15 14:40:39 <ScaredyCat> a small child riding a bicycle with a dynamo..
Apr 15 14:40:47 <SpeedEvil>  np: Prodigy - Diesel power.
Apr 15 14:40:56 <zash> haha
Apr 15 14:41:15 <SpeedEvil> tholin_:
Apr 15 14:41:17 <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/143288
Apr 15 14:41:19 <SpeedEvil> shos:
Apr 15 14:42:33 <thos> SpeedEvil, "thos" :-P
Apr 15 14:52:11 <ScaredyCat> heheheh
Apr 15 14:52:11 <ScaredyCat> http://ucp.uncommonpics.com/piles/?s=programbeauty
Apr 15 14:52:24 <wurp2> summatusmentis: thanks
Apr 15 14:52:47 <wurp2> How is everyone getting their neo to recognize their bt keyboards?
Apr 15 14:53:01 <wurp2> I wrote a little script that I created a .desktop for, but it's not optimal
Apr 15 14:53:04 <summatusmentis> wurp2: depending on where in the US you are, I'd be open to willing to go in on a pack of FreeRunner w/ you
Apr 15 14:53:13 * Stephmw hands wurp2 the physical debugger, also known as "Sledgehammer"
Apr 15 14:53:16 <wurp2> I had to put a couple of sleeps in it, and I just have to keep hitting enter until it works
Apr 15 14:53:41 <wurp2> summatusmentis: Dallas/Fort Worth area.  Very far from you, I think.
Apr 15 14:55:10 <ScaredyCat> wurp2: really?
Apr 15 14:55:16 <wurp2> ScaredyCat: yep
Apr 15 14:55:22 <ScaredyCat> i just enale bt and issue a connect
Apr 15 14:55:25 <ScaredyCat> enable
Apr 15 14:55:39 <wurp2> ScaredyCat: Issue a connect by typing w/ the stylus?
Apr 15 14:56:00 <wurp2> My script turns on bt, waits a second or two, then does hidd -search
Apr 15 14:56:27 <ScaredyCat> a lil script
Apr 15 14:56:29 <ScaredyCat> KB=`hcitool scan | grep "Think Outside Keyboard"| awk '{print $1}'`
Apr 15 14:56:29 <ScaredyCat> hidd --connect $KB
Apr 15 14:56:41 <wurp2> ScaredyCat: Heh, that's my kbd name
Apr 15 14:56:56 <wurp2> ScaredyCat: You run the script by hand, or by .desktop?
Apr 15 14:57:01 <wurp2> That was my real point
Apr 15 14:57:14 <wurp2> Having to type w/ the stylus to get the keyboard working offends me :-)
Apr 15 14:57:23 <ScaredyCat> yes.. it's painful.
Apr 15 14:57:32 <ScaredyCat> ssh works though ;P
Apr 15 14:57:42 <wurp2> Yeah, but if I have ssh, I don't need my bt kbd
Apr 15 14:57:57 <ScaredyCat> ;)
Apr 15 14:58:01 <wurp2> That pretty much answers my question though
Apr 15 14:58:07 <wurp2> My script is about as good as it gets so far
Apr 15 14:58:20 <ScaredyCat> I just put my script in /sbin
Apr 15 14:58:34 <wurp2> I only have to do one click - on my script.  No typing except on the bt kbd
Apr 15 14:58:56 <ScaredyCat> yeah... I cba to do the .desktop bit, 
Apr 15 14:59:01 <ScaredyCat> <-------------lazy mofo
Apr 15 14:59:23 <wurp2> I can't be bothered to type the name of the script every time
Apr 15 14:59:27 <wurp2> <------------ lazier mofo
Apr 15 15:00:05 <wurp2> I have also noticed that hidd --search seems to fail every time thereafter if I run it before the kbd is on
Apr 15 15:00:13 <wurp2> I have to shut down & restart bt then
Apr 15 15:00:36 <wurp2> So my script always turns off bt, waits a second, turns it back on, waits a second, does hidd --search
Apr 15 15:00:58 <ScaredyCat> fairy nuff
Apr 15 15:01:20 <wurp2> I have a script that I run after every jffs2 burn, which puts my .desktop file back in /usr/share/applications, so maintenance is minimal
Apr 15 15:05:52 <TRIsoft> ScaredyCat: It's an old project. "Your Own Shop Server". We seperate between Website and Shop.
Apr 15 15:22:09 <wirrwarr> moep!
Apr 15 15:25:08 <unknown_lamer> oh this is beautiful
Apr 15 15:25:19 <unknown_lamer> I can load a fairly heavy stack of systems into clisp and it is still using under 10M of memory
Apr 15 15:25:34 <unknown_lamer> mmm gui toolkit and everything I need with fairly low memory use
Apr 15 15:40:53 <thos>  unknown_lamer yes, and we can all go back to the 1980's too :-P
Apr 15 15:47:44 <unknown_lamer> thos: Lisp in the 80s is about ten years ahead of where we are now with C and UNIX :-)
Apr 15 15:47:56 <unknown_lamer> thos: I'll gladly travel back in time!
Apr 15 15:48:11 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Apr 15 15:48:11 <unknown_lamer> now I have to wonder whether mcclim works single threaded
Apr 15 15:48:28 <unknown_lamer> and if it uses less than 100M of heap in clisp
Apr 15 15:51:54 <unknown_lamer> oh nice the bleeding edge clx does RENDER now too
Apr 15 15:52:19 <unknown_lamer> if only getting libffcall working wasn't making me want to stab things
Apr 15 16:03:46 <thos> unknown_lamer, pffft, C is timeless :-P
Apr 15 16:04:42 <unknown_lamer> wow ... 10M of use with mcclim
Apr 15 16:04:43 <unknown_lamer> jesus christ is sbcl a memory hog
Apr 15 16:24:15 <wurp2> unknown_lamer: 10M w/ just gtk & core libraries?
Apr 15 16:24:39 <wurp2> unknown_lamer: 'cause python runs in 1M in that situation, and I was complaining about it...
Apr 15 16:26:30 <unknown_lamer> wurp2: 10M with an oodb, gtk, xml parser/generator (with SAX, DOM, Klacks, and STP), a large utility lib (including a full code walker), another large utility lib, a library of generic containers, a contraint/data-flow library, gtk, ...
Apr 15 16:28:40 <unknown_lamer> wurp2: plus the built in regex library, syscalls interface, bdb interface, clx, i18n lib, and readline
Apr 15 16:28:52 <unknown_lamer> which I should disable since I use none of them
Apr 15 16:29:04 <unknown_lamer> probably save 2-3M of heap use
Apr 15 16:29:53 <wurp2> I will play w/ python for a comparison
Apr 15 16:30:14 <wurp2> I just had gtk, xml, re - the containers are built in
Apr 15 16:30:26 <unknown_lamer> is there an oodb for python
Apr 15 16:30:26 <wurp2> I just expected super-low memory usage from lisp
Apr 15 16:30:37 <unknown_lamer> are you sure that python has something similar to cl-containers?
Apr 15 16:30:40 <wurp2> oh yeah, oodb may be a giant part of that
Apr 15 16:30:43 <zedstar_> u need Scheme for that ;)
Apr 15 16:30:48 <wurp2> prolly not similar
Apr 15 16:30:59 <unknown_lamer> as Lisp has built in datastructures naturally (quite the wide range of them in fact)
Apr 15 16:31:02 <wurp2> but the containers are built-in
Apr 15 16:31:21 <unknown_lamer> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/documentation/metabang.cl-containers-package/index.html
Apr 15 16:31:30 <CIA-41> openmoko: 03thomas * r4363 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (opkg.c opkg.h opkg_conf.c opkg_conf.h): opkg: implement opkg_set_option() and opkg_get_option()
Apr 15 16:31:47 <unknown_lamer> The OODB does full orthogonal persistence and has some relational features
Apr 15 16:31:55 <wurp2> very nice!
Apr 15 16:31:59 <unknown_lamer> plus loading BDB
Apr 15 16:32:09 <wurp2> I need to learn more about bdb
Apr 15 16:32:17 <wurp2> I've been hearing a lot about it lately
Apr 15 16:32:27 <unknown_lamer> there isn't much to it -- you have btrees with binary keys and binary data streams
Apr 15 16:32:46 <unknown_lamer> and then efficient functions to query those btrees and maintain indices
Apr 15 16:33:24 <unknown_lamer> you don't use bdb directly with Elephant--just persistent objects and psets
Apr 15 16:34:13 <unknown_lamer> I really wish april 21st would hurry up so I could see which projects lispnyc is doing over the summer (praying for clisp multithreading)
Apr 15 16:35:23 <SpeedEvil> Blastur: no - I need to upload mine.
Apr 15 16:35:25 <SpeedEvil> oops
Apr 15 16:36:19 <unknown_lamer> I'm guess automatic signalling of old applications to exit when memory gets low is going to get added eventually
Apr 15 16:36:39 <SpeedEvil> OOMKILL!
Apr 15 16:36:43 <unknown_lamer> guessing rather -- I want to be ready for that and have an automatically persistent application library setup
Apr 15 16:37:16 <unknown_lamer> oomkill is not nice :-( a friendly SIGTERM would be better (time to run a signal handler to clean up and all)
Apr 15 16:38:08 <unknown_lamer> 'tho just using oomkill would be amusing :-) oh no the kernel chose ... X
Apr 15 17:02:28 <zedstar_> unknown_lamer btw how is packaging clisp going?
Apr 15 17:02:51 <unknown_lamer> zedstar_: the configure script won;t complete (it spews expr: invalid expression infinitely at the end)
Apr 15 17:03:04 <unknown_lamer> zedstar_: I'll probably figure out why later today and get an ffi-less clisp package done
Apr 15 17:03:29 <unknown_lamer> I gave up building the toolchain and just installed the binary dist for now so I can more easily see what is going on
Apr 15 17:03:57 <unknown_lamer> then comes the joy of picking up enough arm assembly to see how libffi does eabi trampolines and then fixing the ffcall trampolines
Apr 15 17:04:39 <Sup3rkiddo> summatusmentis, y0
Apr 15 17:04:39 <zedstar_> unknown_lamer there are parts written in assembly? like core parts?
Apr 15 17:04:49 <summatusmentis> hi Sup3rkiddo 
Apr 15 17:05:24 <unknown_lamer> '
Apr 15 17:05:24 <unknown_lamer> That is to say, the non-reentrant version seems to work under scratchbox. But as soon as I move it to the actual device, it segfaults. The reentrant version fails in any case. The problem is, it works fine if I step through it instruction-by-instruction in gdb, which is pretty maddening. I've tried debugging it by adding instructions to shift temporary values into spare registers such as r2 and r3, but can't get it to produce 
Apr 15 17:05:24 <unknown_lamer> anything comprehensible.'
Apr 15 17:05:50 <unknown_lamer> zedstar_: there are bits in the trampoline code that need to muck about with the stack (just a couple hundred lines of assembly)
Apr 15 17:06:26 <zedstar_> unknown_lamers sounds hairy....so u working in scratcbox?
Apr 15 17:07:17 <unknown_lamer> nah that is from the guy who tried to get it to run on his N810
Apr 15 17:07:22 <unknown_lamer> http://mat.exon.name/logs/clisp
Apr 15 17:07:40 <unknown_lamer> I'm just using the openembedded stuff to generate a package and dropping that onto the emulated neo1973
Apr 15 17:08:07 <unknown_lamer> which works fairly well when I ssh into it (the performance of the qemu framebuffer is abysmal though)
Apr 15 17:09:46 <zedstar_> unknown_lamer ah ok....ive not delved into openembedded much....i built chicken using just the standard cross compiler and then made the ipk from hand
Apr 15 17:11:18 <SpeedEvil> zedstar: thanks.
Apr 15 17:11:29 <SpeedEvil> zedstar: I'd totally forgotten about the chicken in the oven.
Apr 15 17:11:34 * SpeedEvil wanders off.
Apr 15 17:11:50 * zedstar_ eats the Chicken
Apr 15 17:18:43 <wurp2> WOOHOO!!
Apr 15 17:18:58 <Sup3rkiddo> doh
Apr 15 17:19:09 <wurp2> Just got confirmation that Google will be flying me to Zurich to do my in-person interview
Apr 15 17:19:30 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2, good luck
Apr 15 17:19:39 <wurp2> Sup3rkiddo: thx :-)
Apr 15 17:20:25 <summatusmentis> wurp2: awesome!!!
Apr 15 17:21:46 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2, steal the source of dalvik while you are at it
Apr 15 17:21:48 <Sup3rkiddo> :P
Apr 15 17:21:52 <Sup3rkiddo> wait..that was lame
Apr 15 17:21:52 <wurp2> heh
Apr 15 17:22:24 <summatusmentis> wurp2: you can then hire me right? :-P
Apr 15 17:22:40 <Sup3rkiddo> no hire me
Apr 15 17:22:40 <kdean06> wurp2, For what?
Apr 15 17:22:56 <wurp2> Yeah, just as soon as they promote me to manager, right before I quit because they made me a manager
Apr 15 17:23:02 <wurp2> kdean06: software engineer
Apr 15 17:23:14 <wurp2> working on their unit test infrastructure
Apr 15 17:23:18 <kdean06> Neat.
Apr 15 17:24:03 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2, most importantedly,,,what sort of food do they serve
Apr 15 17:24:17 <wurp2> I would be dancing a jig, but my current employer might ask me why
Apr 15 17:24:43 <wurp2> Sup3rkiddo: Not sure - I dunno if the Zurich office has the famous food of the Mtn View office
Apr 15 17:24:55 <Sup3rkiddo> and whats that..clean water?
Apr 15 17:25:55 <wurp2> Sup3rkiddo: I thunk I heard in the US that they hire 4 star chefs for the lunch room...
Apr 15 17:26:02 * Sup3rkiddo faints
Apr 15 17:26:14 <Sup3rkiddo> but ramen should do anytime
Apr 15 17:27:04 <wurp2> http://wistechnology.com/articles/2190/ http://googlemenus.blogspot.com/
Apr 15 17:27:20 <wurp2> Sup3rkiddo: I'm allergic to wheat, so no ramen for me :-(
Apr 15 17:28:01 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2, :O, what kind of a programmer are you..one who is allergic to ramen..ye gods..the horror/macabre
Apr 15 17:28:25 <kdean06> I'm thinking of the beers he can't drink. ;(
Apr 15 17:29:07 <wurp2> kdean06: Yeah, I have to be picky here - I mostly drink Scrimshaw & Grolsch
Apr 15 17:29:25 <wurp2> But on the German border, I can just get any non-wheat beer meeting German purity laws
Apr 15 17:29:54 <kdean06> Odd.
Apr 15 17:30:11 <kdean06> I was sure that wheat was a prohibited items in German beer.
Apr 15 17:30:21 <kdean06> Barley, Hops, Water and Yeast.
Apr 15 17:31:06 <wurp2> But they sell wheat beer; not sure if they can call it beer in Germany
Apr 15 17:31:42 <wurp2> ah, I see
Apr 15 17:31:51 <wurp2> I knew I drank some beer in Germany that had wheat in it
Apr 15 17:31:53 <wurp2> Weissbier
Apr 15 17:31:57 <wurp2> (no esset on my kbd)
Apr 15 17:32:49 <abraxa_> kdean06: Wheat is permitted (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot#The_text )
Apr 15 17:32:52 <kdean06> I beleive in Texas they must call things like Smirnoff Ice "Fruit flavored beer" to avoid stupidity.
Apr 15 17:33:22 <kdean06> abraxa_, All I needed was "The Reinheitsgebot is no longer part of German law".
Apr 15 17:33:23 <kdean06> ;)
Apr 15 17:33:35 <kdean06> I had no idea it wasn't still in effect. :)
Apr 15 17:33:35 <abraxa_> kdean06: It is, just under a different name
Apr 15 17:33:43 <kdean06> Not if it allows wheat. :)
Apr 15 17:34:44 <abraxa_> It does but such beer is declared as such
Apr 15 17:35:18 <wurp2> Apparently yeast was not allowed under Rheinheitsgebot, either, though
Apr 15 17:35:24 <abraxa_> So as long as you stay away from "Weizenbier" (wheat beer), you should be fine
Apr 15 17:35:37 <wurp2> und Weissbier
Apr 15 17:35:48 <kdean06> abraxa_, I'm a bit torn here... As a brewer, I kind of have a respect for strict purity standards. As an voluntaryist, I have no respect for laws. So I've pretty much written Reinheitsgebot as an "industry standard assertion". Wheat + Reinheitsgebot to me is about as "Open source" as Simply Machines Forum. :)
Apr 15 17:36:18 * Sup3rkiddo likes Beck's..
Apr 15 17:36:33 <Sup3rkiddo> cheapest German brew in India AFAIK
Apr 15 17:36:42 <wurp2> In my position, I like anything with no wheat that doesn't taste like shit
Apr 15 17:36:54 <abraxa_> kdean06: I don't see a problem - breweries here mix beer with other ingredients as well, just aren't allowed to sell it as a pure beer and have to label it
Apr 15 17:37:19 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2, when you are desparate for an alcohol intake..does it matter ? ;)
Apr 15 17:37:35 <zedstar_> Sup3rkiddo u have cobra and king fisher beer there or is that something we just have that they claim is Indian beer?
Apr 15 17:37:54 <Sup3rkiddo> zedstar, not cobra
Apr 15 17:37:58 <wurp2> I'm too old to get desperate for alcohol any more... and I am careful about it, having a couple of alkies in my near-ish family
Apr 15 17:38:20 <kdean06> abraxa_, I've got nothing against any fermented product. My only complaint is with the representation of a wheat beer as Reinheitsgebot-compliant. The only way it can be true is to ignore the connotation of it, which is deceptive IMO.
Apr 15 17:38:22 <wurp2> I haven't been drunk since summatusmentis was in middle school ;-)
Apr 15 17:38:26 <Sup3rkiddo> zedstar_, kingfisher is great when you are outta money..but it has glycerol in it, so may cause headaches for some
Apr 15 17:38:36 <Sup3rkiddo> otherwise kf lager is good
Apr 15 17:38:38 <wurp2> kdean06: Do you feel the same way about beer with yeast in it?
Apr 15 17:38:40 <wurp2> ;-)
Apr 15 17:38:41 <DerHorst> I haven't been drunk since ... last weekend
Apr 15 17:38:44 <DerHorst> twice
Apr 15 17:38:52 <summatusmentis> wurp2: that's.... too long
Apr 15 17:39:04 <kdean06> wurp2, Yes and no. 
Apr 15 17:39:15 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2 _is_ olf
Apr 15 17:39:18 <Sup3rkiddo> *old
Apr 15 17:39:19 <abraxa_> kdean06: Ah, I see your point now. And yeah, I would have to agree. I bet no Bavarian would, however :)
Apr 15 17:39:30 <Sup3rkiddo> abraxa_, howdy ho
Apr 15 17:39:31 <wurp2> I agree too
Apr 15 17:39:36 <wurp2> I'm just needling
Apr 15 17:39:40 <wurp2> I should stop
Apr 15 17:39:44 <zedstar_> sup3rkiddo ah ok interesting......they promote cobra as Indian beer in the uk........i quite like king fisher
Apr 15 17:40:17 <abraxa_> Ahoy Sup3rkiddo 
Apr 15 17:40:44 <Sup3rkiddo> zedstar_, afaik all indian beers have some glycerol...but not sure...kf lager has around 5% alcohol in here
Apr 15 17:40:49 <Sup3rkiddo> which is peanuts
Apr 15 17:41:54 <wurp2> Sup3rkiddo: 38 is not old ;-)
Apr 15 17:42:18 <Sup3rkiddo> wurp2, oooho
Apr 15 17:42:30 <Sup3rkiddo> that _is_ not young either
Apr 15 17:42:35 <DerHorst> But it would be interesting, how big is the price-difference between imported German-Beer (Becks at example) and local beer?
Apr 15 17:42:41 <wurp2> Sup3rkiddo: nope, certainly not
Apr 15 17:42:44 <DerHorst> (In india)
Apr 15 17:42:45 <Sup3rkiddo> bleh
Apr 15 17:43:49 <kdean06> Sup3rkiddo, Are you referring to Indian beer meaning "Styles from India" or do you mean "Beers sold in India today" ?
Apr 15 17:44:08 <Sup3rkiddo> DerHorst, depends on where you get it...atleast in my state, we have strict policies on alchohol trade..i can get a kf for 65 bucks..around 600 ml...and 1 dollar is around 40 rupees
Apr 15 17:45:00 <Sup3rkiddo> DerHorst, only government stores can sell liquour...pubs usually charge by pitcher (and i am too poor to get in one of em)
Apr 15 17:46:17 * zedstar_ wonders how many countries still have state produced beer
Apr 15 17:46:59 <Sup3rkiddo> :P
Apr 15 17:47:04 <kdean06> As far as I know, the only glycerol in any beer is the trace amount that MAY be used in the yeast starter. using any kind of refined sugars or sugar alcohols is simply a waste of money.
Apr 15 17:47:04 <Sup3rkiddo> but they are cheap
Apr 15 17:47:16 <ewon> a fellow Irishman lives in Canada
Apr 15 17:47:29 <ewon> he says it's a bad mad booze-wise
Apr 15 17:47:38 <ewon> in that everything is state-controlled
Apr 15 17:47:44 <Sup3rkiddo> kdean06, oh ok...i didnt know that..i was of the impression that indian beers carry a bit more glycerol than normal
Apr 15 17:47:45 <ewon> and booze costs mad money
Apr 15 17:47:50 <Sup3rkiddo> yay
Apr 15 17:47:59 <ewon> mmm, glycerol
Apr 15 17:48:06 <Sup3rkiddo> booze in Goa is the cheapest
Apr 15 17:48:15 <Sup3rkiddo> and so is Pondycherry
Apr 15 17:48:17 <zedstar_> so are the drugs there :)
Apr 15 17:48:20 <Sup3rkiddo> :P
Apr 15 17:48:23 <kdean06> The exception is that Guinness Foreign brews are made in Ireland, boiled down to extract, shipped overseas and then reconstituted "locally" to say "Brewed Locally". :)
Apr 15 17:49:59 <nezza-_-> is the dfu-util compatible to the atmel dfu interface?
Apr 15 17:50:49 <zedstar_> i went on a guinness market research survey...we all thought they would give us loads of guinness to drink and we got none!
Apr 15 17:50:56 <Sup3rkiddo> lol
Apr 15 17:51:07 <Sup3rkiddo> beer is precious
Apr 15 17:51:09 <ewon> guiness over here tastes wrong
Apr 15 17:51:42 <DerHorst> I readed once, that the guinness export beer has more alcohol, due to shiptransports and warmer regions
Apr 15 17:52:30 <zedstar_> i think the guinness sold in the uk is brewed here.....well there is a big brewery in west london anyway
Apr 15 17:52:56 <zedstar_> oh it closed apparently
Apr 15 17:53:08 <zedstar_> http://www.workinglives.org/guinness%20site/index.htm
Apr 15 17:53:09 <Sup3rkiddo> #beer
Apr 15 17:53:16 <zedstar_> yeh now i need a drink
Apr 15 17:53:21 <Sup3rkiddo> damn
Apr 15 17:53:25 <Sup3rkiddo> no money
Apr 15 17:53:29 <kdean06> zedstar, Big myth. :) Guinness everywhere is brewed the same. The off-flavors tasted in the US and South East asia tend to be caused by mishandling, not different brewing.
Apr 15 17:53:29 <DerHorst> Wikipedia says Guinness Extra Stout (aka "Original") has 4,1% Vol and the Exported 5,0 to 8,0 %Vol
Apr 15 17:54:53 <DerHorst> kdean06: Wikipedia [German Version] tells, that different reciepes are used in different countrys
Apr 15 17:54:54 <kdean06> Well, perhaps that's too blanket. :) The "original" Guinness. :) 
Apr 15 17:55:46 <zedstar_> my understanding was guinness was about 4%
Apr 15 17:55:51 <zedstar_> not too strong
Apr 15 17:56:00 <Sup3rkiddo> 4%?
Apr 15 17:56:07 <Sup3rkiddo> thats lower than lager
Apr 15 17:56:08 <kdean06> DerHorst, Guinness is a brewery, they do several types of beer. Their "original" stout, the one you'd get if you said "Gimme a Guinness" is all the same. They do have Foreign stouts and those are different recipes depending on the locale, but they're different recipes. :)
Apr 15 17:56:23 <DerHorst> Ahhhh
Apr 15 17:56:35 <DerHorst> Thanky kdean06 I have misunderstood 
Apr 15 17:56:59 <zedstar_> sup3rkiddo well u can get quite a lot of weak lager in pubs in the uk
Apr 15 17:57:00 <kdean06> DerHorst, You're right. The Foreign brews ARE different, and they're weird because they're some of the few beers brewed from extract. :)
Apr 15 17:57:27 <kdean06> Saying lager has an alcohol content is like saying water is cold. :P
Apr 15 17:57:28 <zedstar_> so 4% is kinda average
Apr 15 17:57:41 <Sup3rkiddo> oh
Apr 15 17:57:50 * Sup3rkiddo is a new alcoholic
Apr 15 17:58:01 <CVirus> "I long so much away" .... What does it mean ?
Apr 15 17:59:16 <kdean06> Most American or Japanese rice beers are lagers and in the 5% range, but some lagers can get into the 10% range. Lager simply describes the fermentation done in cold temps. It can sometimes also refer to the kind of yeast but with modern hybrid yeasts it's a bit... innacturate.
Apr 15 18:00:00 <abraxa_> kdean06: I see your passion lies within non-techy subjects as well :)
Apr 15 18:00:16 <kdean06> I like beer. :)
Apr 15 18:00:24 <kdean06> It's a great hobby and kills a ton of time.
Apr 15 18:00:30 <CVirus> lol
Apr 15 18:00:33 <kdean06> And teaches patience to stones.
Apr 15 18:00:33 <zedstar_> i had a phase ok drinking 50% Raki......i dont recommend that :)
Apr 15 18:00:37 <CVirus> and brain cells too
Apr 15 18:02:31 <wurp2> 50% Raki?  As in 100 proof?
Apr 15 18:02:39 <zedstar_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raki_%28alcoholic_beverage%29
Apr 15 18:03:46 <zedstar_> lived in istanbul for a couple of years and picked up the habit but it is pretty dangerous drink i think
Apr 15 18:21:39 <summatusmentis> I hate philosophy courses
Apr 15 18:22:15 <Sup3rkiddo> summatusmentis, hey you can catch up on some sleep during the classes
Apr 15 18:22:26 <summatusmentis> not really... we have a small class
Apr 15 18:22:31 <summatusmentis> I go to a school of 1700
Apr 15 18:23:01 * Sup3rkiddo is part of a strenght of 66 students
Apr 15 18:28:23 <summatusmentis> Sup3rkiddo: seen anything change on your apps?
Apr 15 18:28:30 <wurp2> summatusmentis: I took philosophy logic as my philo course
Apr 15 18:28:54 <summatusmentis> wurp2: taking International and Biomedical Ethics
Apr 15 18:29:02 <wurp2> It was mostly proofs using logic operators, which was like the kindergarten version of the graduate Algebra course I was taking at the same time
Apr 15 18:30:55 <wurp2> I should have taken something to make me a more rounded person
Apr 15 18:31:02 <wurp2> Like an in-depth study of hedonism or something
Apr 15 18:34:55 <zedstar_> yeh im becoming more interested in social science as i age
Apr 15 18:35:15 <unknown_lamer> summatusmentis: philosophy is fun!
Apr 15 18:35:29 <summatusmentis> not at all
Apr 15 18:35:37 <unknown_lamer> lies what are you doing
Apr 15 18:36:43 <summatusmentis> International/Biomedical Ethics
Apr 15 18:37:02 <summatusmentis> might just be the prof, but personally, philosophy seems to be just a huge mental circle jerk
Apr 15 18:37:04 <unknown_lamer> that is a lame philosophy course
Apr 15 18:37:10 <summatusmentis> yes, it is
Apr 15 18:37:22 <unknown_lamer> epistomology is important for automagic reasoning systems
Apr 15 18:37:37 <unknown_lamer> ethics in general is useful but ... biomedical ethics wtf
Apr 15 18:37:40 <kdean06> Basic question... How do I launch an app on my Neo from SSH? I want it to open locally to see the console output...
Apr 15 18:38:03 <unknown_lamer> kdean06: you should be able to just 'export DISPLAY=:0' and run it
Apr 15 18:38:05 <summatusmentis> well, the idea was that these topics would be applicable
Apr 15 18:38:13 <wurp2> I was kidding, actually
Apr 15 18:38:25 <wurp2> hedonism makes you rounded by way of gaining weight
Apr 15 18:38:39 <kdean06> unknown_lamer, Thanks. My brain isn't working, I've been forgetting "export". 
Apr 15 18:38:52 <wurp2> Although I do find that I'm more interested in soft subjects as I grow older.  I attribute it to becoming stupider.
Apr 15 18:39:21 <summatusmentis> class is over, leaving now
Apr 15 19:38:00 <freelock> anybody have trouble with opkg getting a segmentation fault with a message "fork failed", when installing a package?
Apr 15 19:45:13 <Spydon> "The Freerunner phone (with wifi) will be released at some time." - Are you sure? :P
Apr 15 19:45:24 <Spydon> shouldnt you add a maybe or something? :P
Apr 15 19:46:10 <abraxa_> "The Freerunner phone (maybe with wifi) will be released at some time."
Apr 15 19:46:11 <abraxa_> Better?
Apr 15 19:49:56 <summatusmentis> "The maybe Freerunner maybe phone (maybe with wifi) will maybe be released maybe at some time"
Apr 15 19:50:01 <Spydon> Why should that be better abraxa_ ? :P
Apr 15 19:50:18 <Qwell> "Some phone that may or may not use OpenMoko (and may or may not have wifi) may be released at some point."
Apr 15 19:50:29 <kdean06> Maybe.
Apr 15 19:52:24 <wurp2> Spydon: You know that things actually sound pretty good for a release early next month?  It sounds as if PVT is wrapping up & they're preparing for MP
Apr 15 19:52:36 <Spydon> Yeah
Apr 15 19:53:10 <Spydon> Before people always added "maybe" in the title 
Apr 15 19:53:33 <summatusmentis> well, that's because noone had any idea as to actual timing
Apr 15 19:53:49 <mwester> We still don't
Apr 15 19:54:00 <summatusmentis> but we know we're way closer than we were
Apr 15 19:54:11 <mwester> Yes, that is true.
Apr 15 19:54:46 <mwester> But OM, I think, is trying to be cautious in case some problem appears in the testing, and they need a few more weeks to resolve it.
Apr 15 19:55:40 <summatusmentis> of course, but presumably the PVT would've caught that
Apr 15 19:56:45 <mwester> Presumably, but Murphy is perverse.
Apr 15 20:05:27 <TAsn> hey, is there a feed to get openmoke progress news?
Apr 15 20:05:58 <jamewill> TAsn, yes you are in it
Apr 15 20:06:12 <TAsn> the topic? :)
Apr 15 20:06:23 <SpeedEvil> It's like RSS, but better!
Apr 15 20:06:36 <jamewill> TAsn, try community update on the wiki
Apr 15 20:06:42 <mwester> although the signal to noise ratio is often worse here....
Apr 15 20:06:43 <abraxa_> TAsn: lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/
Apr 15 20:07:18 <TAsn> mwester, that's what i was thinking
Apr 15 20:08:28 * mwester has two neos, both sound asleep... and sends an SMS message to each.
Apr 15 20:09:53 * SpeedEvil awaits results.
Apr 15 20:10:08 <wurp2> we quiver with antici
Apr 15 20:10:27 <wurp2> pation
Apr 15 20:10:30 <mwester> I think the fact that there are no results yet is significant...
Apr 15 20:10:33 * SpeedEvil does not quiver.
Apr 15 20:10:34 <mwester> :(
Apr 15 20:10:43 * SpeedEvil is all rock-hard sculpted muscle.
Apr 15 20:10:51 * mjr elbow-sexes wurp2 
Apr 15 20:11:12 <mwester> Sigh.   One of them actually woke up a few days ago, but I've not been able to figure out what was different to make that actually work.  But there clearly is hope.
Apr 15 20:11:13 <wurp2> Hey now!
Apr 15 20:11:26 <wurp2> We're all a little too uniformly gendered to start that stuff
Apr 15 20:11:53 <mjr> when you're talking antici
Apr 15 20:11:54 <mwester> Argh!  I just heard the GSM in the one closest to the speakers here; the GSM modem is clearly alive and talking.  But no resume...
Apr 15 20:11:55 <wurp2> for my tastes, at least
Apr 15 20:12:01 <mjr> pation, you're never too uniformly gendered
Apr 15 20:12:39 <wurp2> mjr: ;-)
Apr 15 21:41:51 * cb22 holds his breath  :-)
Apr 15 21:45:03 <wurp2> That only results in drain bamage
Apr 15 21:46:03 <cb22> hod
Apr 15 21:46:36 <cb22> sorry my brain is already damaged
Apr 15 21:46:42 <wurp2> but on the bright side, after a while you might believe you have a FR
Apr 15 21:47:07 <SpeedEvil> hoding breath is easy.
Apr 15 21:47:11 <SpeedEvil> It's very light.
Apr 15 21:47:28 <SpeedEvil> abutters=dairy;meat
Apr 15 21:47:36 <SpeedEvil> oops
Apr 15 21:47:49 <wurp2> SpeedEvil: You have freaky oopses
Apr 15 21:47:58 <wurp2> One might almost imagine they're only there to intrigue
Apr 15 21:48:16 <SpeedEvil> It was a comment in a mapping channel about mapping tesco.
Apr 15 21:48:24 <SpeedEvil> (a supermarket in the UK)
Apr 15 21:48:34 <wurp2> I need to set up a bot that takes random lines from sex chat archives & posts them here
Apr 15 21:48:38 * cb22 thinks back to depleted uranium
Apr 15 21:48:40 <wurp2> followed shortly by an oops
Apr 15 21:48:59 * SpeedEvil spanks wurp2 for having a very wicked idea.
Apr 15 21:49:07 <abraxa_> wurp2: Do it :D
Apr 15 21:49:19 <thos> hi abraxa_ 
Apr 15 21:49:20 <cb22> wurp2, lol!
Apr 15 21:49:25 <wurp2> dammit, it would only encourage you guys
Apr 15 21:49:45 <wurp2> I don't want to be spanked by SpeedEvil, tickled by abraxa_, or elbow-sexed by mjr
Apr 15 21:50:37 <cb22> ahem, iirc abraxa was the bdsm one
Apr 15 21:50:38 <wurp2> at least, not that I'm willing to admit in a semi-public forum
Apr 15 21:51:04 <cb22> i have the rope markgl
Apr 15 21:51:06 <mjr> (really, he likes it)
Apr 15 21:51:18 <cb22> goddamed phones
Apr 15 21:51:32 <wurp2> goddamned not-sitting-on-my-desk phones
Apr 15 21:54:38 <[Rui]> hello, I have a friend in Portugal who wants to make a bulk buy of several dozens
Apr 15 21:54:45 <cb22> yeah i
Apr 15 21:54:52 <cb22> ooa
Apr 15 21:54:52 <[Rui]> he tells me no one answered him on the website
Apr 15 21:55:12 <[Rui]> can you tell me someone I should direct him to?
Apr 15 21:55:15 <cb22> oops sorry
Apr 15 21:55:18 <[Rui]> someone who might respond?
Apr 15 21:55:33 <wurp2> [Rui]: I don't think you can pre-order outside of Europe yet
Apr 15 21:56:06 <wurp2> You can post on the community update mailing list
Apr 15 21:56:14 <[Rui]> wurp2: that's fine then, inside Europe is where Portugal is, one of our most recent prime ministers is now the president of the european commission ;)
Apr 15 21:56:34 <wurp2> Sorry, for some reason I was thinking Peru
Apr 15 21:56:35 <wurp2> :-)
Apr 15 21:56:46 <[Rui]> wurp2: no problem, LOL
Apr 15 21:56:50 <wurp2> I know where Portugal is ;-)
Apr 15 21:57:13 <cb22> and i thought i was out of it!
Apr 15 21:57:28 <kdean06> O-o
Apr 15 21:57:34 <wurp2> Nope, it was me
Apr 15 21:57:39 <wurp2> who was out of it ;-)
Apr 15 21:57:53 <[Rui]> what I understood is that through the website he got no answer, so I suppose it's the somewhat usual supernatural chaotic nature :)
Apr 15 21:58:11 <[Rui]> that or he didn't make the right question.
Apr 15 21:58:16 <wurp2> I still think the best thing is to ask on the community update mailing list
Apr 15 21:58:27 <wurp2> Even if you're not in South America ;-)
Apr 15 21:59:23 <[Rui]> wurp2: ok, I'll tell him that
Apr 15 21:59:55 <wurp2> [Rui]: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Apr 15 21:59:58 <[Rui]> I'm really anxious, my story short: i was already anxious when I had a Nokia 6600, which was resisting all damage as much as I could in order to buy an OpenMoko phone
Apr 15 22:00:12 <[Rui]> then last august I took it for a 20 minute swim at a pool
Apr 15 22:00:29 <[Rui]> it died. completely
Apr 15 22:00:29 <wurp2> That's one way to force an upgrade
Apr 15 22:00:39 <[Rui]> yeah... but I downgraded, a lot
Apr 15 22:00:56 <[Rui]> because buying one expensive phone after another is not high on my expenses list :)
Apr 15 22:00:58 <wurp2> ah, so now you'd like to get some kind of smartphone again
Apr 15 22:01:09 <wurp2> and not waste your money on a non-neo one :-)
Apr 15 22:01:14 <[Rui]> so I bought the cheapest one I could which had bluetooth, expecting OpenMoko in september or october
Apr 15 22:01:24 <[Rui]> it's still resisting :)
Apr 15 22:01:37 <wurp2> [Rui]: I expected that until January, then gave in and bought a 1973
Apr 15 22:01:39 <[Rui]> so I'm quite excited about the recent news
Apr 15 22:02:22 <[Rui]> I think that the features of gta02 are quite important for I want to reduce at the maximum possible the number of devices I carry
Apr 15 22:03:42 <wurp2> Yeah, the only reason I could justify buying a neo was my bad navigation & its gps
Apr 15 22:03:53 <[Rui]> thank you wurp2
Apr 15 22:04:06 <wurp2> you're welcome
Apr 15 22:04:10 <cb22> hail freerunner!
Apr 15 22:04:15 <wurp2> Say hi to your friend in Peru ;-)
Apr 15 22:04:21 <SpeedEvil> But the GPS on the neo isn't anywhere near as functional as GPSs on 'competitor' phones.
Apr 15 22:04:33 <wurp2> The GPS isn't, or the software isn't?
Apr 15 22:04:36 <SpeedEvil> In most cases - due to the lack of mapping sofrtware
Apr 15 22:04:59 <wurp2> Neo + Navit has kept me happy, but I have nothing to compare it to
Apr 15 22:05:02 <[Rui]> SpeedEvil: it's software
Apr 15 22:05:09 <[Rui]> SpeedEvil: and that will get fixed soon enough
Apr 15 22:05:14 <SpeedEvil> Saying 'it's just software'
Apr 15 22:05:22 <SpeedEvil> does not magically make that software appear.
Apr 15 22:05:25 <mjr> it's also maps, which are less "just"
Apr 15 22:05:39 <wurp2> mjr: I found good maps for my area (great maps, really) on osm
Apr 15 22:05:53 <mjr> (but living in a well-osm'd city, I'm relatively well off)
Apr 15 22:05:57 <wurp2> Dunno how they are for Zurich... if crappy maybe I'll add some
Apr 15 22:05:59 <SpeedEvil> OSM isn't really properly up to routing.
Apr 15 22:06:00 <[Rui]> SpeedEvil: yeah, but OpenMoko is probably not good enough for average joe-mobile-user-with-gps but for me it's a perfectly good start
Apr 15 22:06:11 <mjr> wurp2, found decent maps, made them better ;P
Apr 15 22:06:13 <SpeedEvil> In some cases it may be adequate.
Apr 15 22:06:15 <[Rui]> a friend and I have some software ideas we'd like to try to implement
Apr 15 22:06:23 <SpeedEvil> But - for example - there is no way to flag turn restrictions.
Apr 15 22:06:46 <SpeedEvil> Or rather - no standard way.
Apr 15 22:06:54 <[Rui]> something like: if this number is in this list, don't even bother me with a signal he's calling
Apr 15 22:07:16 <mjr> SpeedEvil, yeah, hopefully they get that relation thing specced out for it
Apr 15 22:07:17 <SpeedEvil> [Rui]: there is lots of stuff on the wiki
Apr 15 22:07:19 <[Rui]> or if he's on this list and calls more than X times under Y minutes, then stop ignoring and pass the call
Apr 15 22:07:30 <cb22> perfect for ex-girlfriends
Apr 15 22:07:35 <SpeedEvil> [Rui]: for example, answerphone functionality on the phone itself.
Apr 15 22:07:59 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't ring, it just drops straight to customised answerphone, with variable prompts.
Apr 15 22:08:36 <[Rui]> SpeedEvil: that is something that we envisaged to include
Apr 15 22:08:46 <SpeedEvil> Read the wiki
Apr 15 22:08:57 <SpeedEvil> I think category:calling_featuers
Apr 15 22:11:05 <[Rui]> SpeedEvil: I can't seem to find that, but I'm already too sleepy
Apr 15 23:45:27 <ljp> anyone creating rootfs for gta02?
Apr 16 00:21:18 <raster> moo
Apr 16 00:23:21 <Stephmw> eyo
Apr 16 00:26:28 <raster> baa
Apr 16 00:27:17 <Stephmw> so, what's new?
Apr 16 00:29:13 <raster> taiwan is too hot and humid in summer
Apr 16 00:29:24 <raster> its already very warm here againand humid
Apr 16 00:29:31 <raster> and its only april
Apr 16 00:29:40 <raster> that reminds me why i wanted to stay away from .w during its summer
Apr 16 00:29:41 <raster> :)
Apr 16 00:30:03 <summatusmentis> raster: you live in .tw now? or just there for a while?
Apr 16 00:30:40 <raster> i slip in and out like a ... never mind. i come and ... errr.. i travel here a lot
Apr 16 00:30:55 <summatusmentis> what?
Apr 16 00:30:56 <summatusmentis> lol
Apr 16 00:32:28 <raster> :-P
Apr 16 00:32:53 <summatusmentis> so you're there for work, but you don't live there
Apr 16 00:44:54 <raster> correctipoos
Apr 16 00:49:39 <summatusmentis> lol. How comes the keyboard?
Apr 16 00:50:42 <raster> done
Apr 16 00:50:46 <raster> all in svn
Apr 16 01:32:47 <renebrask> Are there plans to redesign the openmoko phone? The case I mean. Making it smaller and thinner?
Apr 16 01:38:49 <ewon> doubt it
Apr 16 01:41:14 <renebrask> looking at the picture of the board it doesn't look like it is possible to squeeze the parts together. Maybe a future version will be smaller. I can only hope :)
Apr 16 01:55:44 <zash> does anuone here have a apple usb-charger
Apr 16 01:56:11 * zash curses qwerty
Apr 16 01:59:21 <zash> is anyone awake even?
Apr 16 02:00:44 <ewon> just about
Apr 16 02:15:59 <rtm> Me too
Apr 16 02:16:52 <rtm> zash: I have an apple USB charger for an ipod...
Apr 16 02:19:47 <zash> do you have a multimeter or similar?
Apr 16 02:20:07 <rtm> At work, but not at home, unfortunately.
Apr 16 02:20:17 <rtm> (and I'm at home)
Apr 16 02:23:39 <zash> :(
Apr 16 02:23:47 <rtm> Sorry.
Apr 16 02:24:18 <zash> i'm trying to figure out whu apple products wont charge from generetic usb-wall-chargers
Apr 16 02:36:43 <ljp> must be an offical Apple wall 
Apr 16 02:39:01 <zash> orly
Apr 16 02:55:24 <zash> looks like one have to short the data pins
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 16 02:59:56 2008