**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 25 02:59:57 2008
Apr 25 03:15:22 <xaid> maybe the main site is being updated to reflect the FreeRunner's close arrival? :)
Apr 25 03:18:01 <mwester> hope: the last thing to die
Apr 25 03:18:39 <mwester> xaid: cynics are happier people; our hopes don't get dashed when schedules slip ;)  :D
Apr 25 03:21:41 <xaid> :D 
Apr 25 03:22:07 <xaid> by the way, I'm taking a look at the Wiki and it seems a lot of things still say Openmoko instead of OpenMoko, should I change them when possible?
Apr 25 03:22:46 <mwester> I have no idea which way is correct, actually.  I suppose it makes a difference.
Apr 25 03:23:14 <madwoota> how about the topic: "Welcome to the Openmoko support and discussion channel!"
Apr 25 03:23:23 <xaid> I thought someone mentioned on the mailing list that the correct name is OpenMoko...
Apr 25 03:23:33 <doc|home> madwoota: erm, that's in the topic
Apr 25 03:23:48 <madwoota> with a little m
Apr 25 03:24:13 <kdean06> mwester, Openmoko is correct.
Apr 25 03:24:23 <kdean06> I did a MySQL dump to correct it. :(
Apr 25 03:24:29 <kdean06> I'm such a fucking pawn.
Apr 25 03:24:33 <xaid> lol
Apr 25 03:29:58 <sdfa333> the site is down 
Apr 25 03:30:13 <kdean06> sdfa333, It's known.
Apr 25 03:30:25 <sdfa333> does this mean its coming back up with the freerunner for sale ?
Apr 25 03:30:31 <sdfa333> ;)
Apr 25 03:31:02 <kdean06> It probably means someon in Germany accidentally hit : instead of ; in a config file. :)
Apr 25 03:31:06 <kdean06> .org is still up.
Apr 25 03:31:35 <sdfa333> i am aware of that ;)
Apr 25 03:31:56 <sdfa333> oh when it comes out will i be able to get it shipped to australia -- any one know of the plans for this
Apr 25 03:32:06 <sdfa333> so far i have only seen things for the eu
Apr 25 03:32:23 <LetoT2> i am told a few phones will soon make it to toronto
Apr 25 03:32:45 <LetoT2> soon as in "weeks or a month" i think
Apr 25 03:33:00 <LetoT2> not sure how trustworthy the info is though
Apr 25 03:33:02 <sdfa333> when can i put an order in --- i think some one said you might be able to get one nowish
Apr 25 03:33:41 <kdean06> sdfa333, Check the wiki... There's a discount for ordering 10 or more units so "local groups" are peoping up everywhere except where I live. :)
Apr 25 03:33:42 <sdfa333> i just want to part with my money so i know that it has gone through 
Apr 25 03:34:06 <sdfa333> kdean06: ok is it ok if i start a page dedicated to sydney australia shipping
Apr 25 03:34:40 <doc|home> LetoT2: I'm in vancouver, trying to get together 10 people, have 7 so far
Apr 25 03:34:47 <doc|home> contacting an 8th from the lisyt
Apr 25 03:35:28 <kdean06> dbmoodb, It's a wiki, why are you asking me? lol
Apr 25 03:35:55 <dbmoodb> because it might be considered rude
Apr 25 03:36:04 <tomjoad> i can still get to the openmoko.com site. is that what you guys were talking about being down?
Apr 25 03:36:24 <dotmef> sdfa333, if you start a page, I'll be interested as I'm in Syd
Apr 25 03:36:37 <kdean06> dbmoodb, I was suggesting a group may already exist in your area. If not, certainly, start one. :)
Apr 25 03:36:41 <dbmoodb> dotmef what is your ,... i will pm you
Apr 25 03:37:01 <doc|home> grrr, registration and confirmation email for editing wiki
Apr 25 03:37:03 * doc|home stabs
Apr 25 03:38:06 <dbmoodb> ok so where are the group pages held atm kdean06
Apr 25 03:38:47 <kdean06> dbmoodb, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales
Apr 25 03:39:00 <dbmoodb> oh
Apr 25 03:39:04 <dbmoodb> mad
Apr 25 03:40:21 <dbmoodb> perhaps that should be linked to on the main page
Apr 25 03:49:48 <dbmoodb> ah how long is the warranty going to be on the phone btw
Apr 25 03:52:13 <dotmef> dbmoodb, added self to Syd list
Apr 25 03:53:23 <dbmoodb> ok
Apr 25 03:53:26 <dbmoodb> got an email there ?
Apr 25 03:53:59 <dbmoodb> dotmef for security we will order it using one of our credit cards once everyone has been established to have the funds 
Apr 25 03:54:20 <dbmoodb> if possible we might set up a bank account in the name of openmoko buying company pty
Apr 25 03:54:21 <dbmoodb> rofl
Apr 25 04:03:21 <ewon> wtf
Apr 25 04:04:12 <dbmoodb> ewon: ?
Apr 25 04:45:46 <afents> ack?
Apr 25 04:46:06 <ahven> $ file dfu-util
Apr 25 04:46:06 <ahven> dfu-util: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, statically linked, not stripped
Apr 25 04:46:15 <ahven> the one at http://downloads.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.11/images/neo1973/
Apr 25 04:46:15 <ahven> :P
Apr 25 05:47:41 <ahven> err
Apr 25 05:47:56 <ahven> has the root password been added in the late builds?
Apr 25 05:48:12 <ahven> blank password doesn't let me log in
Apr 25 05:48:46 <ahven> and last, but not least
Apr 25 05:48:46 <ahven> # ssh root@192.168.0.202
Apr 25 05:48:46 <ahven> Once you press 'enter' (empty password), you should now have a root login. 
Apr 25 05:48:56 <ahven> the intro is still the same though...
Apr 25 05:54:59 <josch> MichaelShiloh, hi! i dont want to bother you - only wanted to ask what's going on.
Apr 25 06:05:23 <flexd> Morning!
Apr 25 06:24:56 <mjbroek> morning
Apr 25 07:18:34 <Hopscotch> good morning
Apr 25 07:36:52 * ScaredyCat tries to bribe MichaelShiloh
Apr 25 07:40:44 * flexd yawns
Apr 25 08:14:34 <thos> ScaredyCat, around?
Apr 25 08:15:02 <ScaredyCat> yea
Apr 25 08:27:53 <thos> ScaredyCat, heh, just saw your bug comment
Apr 25 08:28:22 <thos> ScaredyCat, same issue, openmoko-mediaplayer has a custom theme but doesn't distribute it
Apr 25 08:29:49 <thos> same issue as I mentioned on the mailing list*
Apr 25 08:32:08 <ScaredyCat> the thing is I don't thnik it's suppoerted / developed anymore... 
Apr 25 08:32:23 <thos> ScaredyCat, it's open source!
Apr 25 08:32:26 <thos> we can fix it!
Apr 25 08:32:37 <thos> i told abraxa about this problem months ago anyway
Apr 25 08:32:39 <ScaredyCat> well, yes, but aren't we expecting a new version
Apr 25 08:32:49 <thos> a new version?
Apr 25 08:32:53 <thos> isn't it in openmoko svn?
Apr 25 08:33:59 <ScaredyCat> dunno... I may be taking balls
Apr 25 08:39:20 <CVirus> aren't we getting pouches or earphones :-(
Apr 25 08:39:25 <thos> haha
Apr 25 08:39:28 <CVirus> i don't have 10 people to but the freerunner with me
Apr 25 08:39:38 <thos> ScaredyCat, that guy just attaached a screenshot of my theme..
Apr 25 08:42:20 <CVirus> I WANT MY POUCH
Apr 25 08:42:26 <CVirus> i'm so killing steve
Apr 25 08:45:55 <ScaredyCat> thos: erm.. so it's your theme that's got bugs, not mine ;)
Apr 25 08:47:43 <buz> will production gta02 be all black? (i sure hope so)
Apr 25 08:48:14 <Sup3rkiddo> i heard rumours of an all yellow one
Apr 25 08:48:19 <XorA|gone> buz: I think so, if not purchase a case from your friendly OpenMoko employee :-)
Apr 25 08:48:32 <Sup3rkiddo> s/OpenMoko/Openmoko/
Apr 25 08:48:46 <XorA|gone> ~lart marketing guys
Apr 25 08:48:47 * apt breaks out the Hoover and sucks up marketing guys
Apr 25 08:48:52 <buz> mhh prying open cases and swapping innards sounds like pain
Apr 25 08:49:09 <XorA|gone> I guess instead of being OM it now just became O
Apr 25 08:49:26 <XorA|gone> buz: its like ten seconds job
Apr 25 08:49:40 <buz> yeah unless you damage antenna connectors or something like that
Apr 25 08:50:05 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03zecke * rbb2704b0466f 10/src/libraries/qtopiaprediction/wordprediction.cpp: [prediction] Use the center of the points and update the todo item
Apr 25 08:50:06 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03zecke * r7f8d1b48f3e4 10/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [prediction] Begin describing the key positions in terms of rects and not as center of a square
Apr 25 08:50:24 <Sup3rkiddo> the ibg O
Apr 25 08:50:31 <Sup3rkiddo> *big
Apr 25 08:51:27 <ScaredyCat> XorA|gone: are the cases an exact match?
Apr 25 08:51:44 <CVirus> omg .. no video play back on the freerunner 1
Apr 25 08:51:47 <CVirus> !
Apr 25 08:51:49 <CVirus> stupid shift key
Apr 25 08:53:09 <XorA|gone> ScaredyCat: gta02v5 that O employees have match the ones for gta02v5 MP
Apr 25 08:53:11 * ScaredyCat ebays bonues pouch and headset
Apr 25 08:53:31 <ScaredyCat> ok...
Apr 25 08:53:43 <CVirus> I think I'll buy an N810 and wait for the GTA03
Apr 25 08:53:45 <CVirus> too bad
Apr 25 08:54:11 <ScaredyCat> but do the cases for the 01 match the 02 
Apr 25 08:54:14 <Sup3rkiddo> XorA|gone, O sounds weird
Apr 25 08:54:17 <Sup3rkiddo> Om
Apr 25 08:54:17 <XorA|gone> ScaredyCat: no
Apr 25 08:54:18 <Sup3rkiddo> maybe
Apr 25 08:54:27 <ScaredyCat> so how ccould you swap them then
Apr 25 08:54:30 <XorA|gone> Sup3rkiddo: Om sounds like monks chanting
Apr 25 08:54:42 <Sup3rkiddo> peace of mind
Apr 25 08:54:50 <XorA|gone> ScaredyCat: well O employees have all black cases on prototypes
Apr 25 08:55:11 <ScaredyCat> right.. and aren't the mp ones all black ?
Apr 25 08:55:38 <gambler> CVirus: there will be another open phone soon....no GPS tho. 
Apr 25 08:55:58 <ScaredyCat> so swpping an all black one for another all black one might take 10 mins or so... but it's pointless 
Apr 25 08:55:58 <XorA|gone> ScaredyCat: I dont know what colour they are, I was just saying in case they are not, we could black market the ones we have :-)
Apr 25 08:56:16 <CVirus> gambler: will be waiting :-)
Apr 25 08:56:23 <CVirus> gambler: I've been waiting for over a year now :-)
Apr 25 08:56:41 * ScaredyCat wants one of each part in each colour so I can make up my own colour scheme
Apr 25 08:56:51 <XorA|gone> CVirus: the n810 is a sweet bit of hardware, all it needs is a mic and gsm modem
Apr 25 08:57:21 <CVirus> for the gsm thingy .. I'll just hook it with my 6600 via bluetooth
Apr 25 08:57:33 <CVirus> it doesn't have a mic !
Apr 25 08:57:34 <XorA|gone> I hook it to my Kaiser
Apr 25 08:57:38 <CVirus> how will I make internet calls then !
Apr 25 08:58:12 <CVirus> wtf
Apr 25 08:59:00 <CVirus> the n800 and the n770 have microphones
Apr 25 08:59:05 <CVirus> why the fuck did they remove it from the n810
Apr 25 08:59:11 <CVirus> stupid nokia
Apr 25 08:59:14 <CVirus> fucken capitalists
Apr 25 08:59:17 <XorA|gone> Oh it does
Apr 25 08:59:22 <XorA|gone> my mistake
Apr 25 08:59:49 <CVirus> its wikipedia page says nothing about it anyways
Apr 25 08:59:59 <XorA|gone> CVirus: it has one, I just checked with skype
Apr 25 09:00:00 <buz> i would so buy a n810 if it had gsm
Apr 25 09:00:17 <XorA|gone> CVirus: I dont remeber the docs mentioning it, so I never really checked before
Apr 25 09:00:28 <buz> would be downright stupid not to have a mic, relaly
Apr 25 09:00:39 <XorA|gone> well it has one, for sure
Apr 25 09:01:10 <buz> oh the thing has gotten quite affordable. 320usd orso
Apr 25 09:08:55 <thos> ScaredyCat, I was going to ask if you can help me improve the colours in the Moko theme
Apr 25 09:14:02 <ScaredyCat> I'm happy to help where  I can
Apr 25 09:17:35 <ScaredyCat> is the only way to switch themes to restart x ?
Apr 25 09:29:00 <SpeedEvil> You can start multiple X servers.
Apr 25 09:29:12 <SpeedEvil> But I suspec that doesn't answer your question.
Apr 25 09:29:24 <SpeedEvil> Also - the WM is what does themes - so restarting that should work
Apr 25 09:31:57 <ScaredyCat> I thought a gconf update should trigger it.. 
Apr 25 09:32:15 <SpeedEvil> I know. 
Apr 25 09:32:26 <SpeedEvil> I only supply unhelpful answers.
Apr 25 09:32:35 <ScaredyCat> :(
Apr 25 09:35:56 <zash> coffee!
Apr 25 09:42:25 * SpeedEvil wonders how many people reading the MLs have been searching the internets for the modem updating files in case they've leaked.
Apr 25 09:43:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03hepaajan * r251 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (22 files in 4 dirs): 
Apr 25 09:43:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Implemented Device/GetAntennaPower
Apr 25 09:43:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Partially implemented Device/GetInfo (IMEI)
Apr 25 09:43:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Reorganized libfreesmartphone python test layer
Apr 25 09:43:57 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: Removed caching of SIM status (Not sure if it is the right thing to do...)
Apr 25 09:56:36 <ScaredyCat> SpeedEvil: I have to admit to testing the secruity on the links ;)
Apr 25 09:59:46 <thos> ScaredyCat, correct
Apr 25 09:59:53 <thos> ScaredyCat, changing the gconf key will change the theme
Apr 25 10:00:30 <ScaredyCat> it changes the theme but the apps don't seem to ack that an change
Apr 25 10:00:31 <thos> ScaredyCat, however, if you do it from outside X (e.g. ssh) then it won't work unless you are connected to the same dbus bus
Apr 25 10:01:42 <ScaredyCat> I'm doing it from a script, lauched from then menus
Apr 25 10:02:03 <thos> hmm
Apr 25 10:02:27 <thos> ScaredyCat, well, if you have set ~/.gtkrc for example, this overrides the gconf setting
Apr 25 10:02:40 <thos> ScaredyCat, if you give me the script I can take a look
Apr 25 10:03:03 <ScaredyCat> sure,  1 sec while I test something
Apr 25 10:06:43 <ScaredyCat> http://pastebin.ca/996920
Apr 25 10:07:49 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r252 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (11 files in 2 dirs): 
Apr 25 10:07:49 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: fixed timeout issue
Apr 25 10:07:49 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: sms receive/read fixed
Apr 25 10:09:53 <florian>  good morning
Apr 25 10:12:04 <zash> good coffee drinking time
Apr 25 10:14:26 <flexd> morning
Apr 25 10:15:18 <ScaredyCat> thos: sorted it!
Apr 25 10:15:21 <ScaredyCat> w00t
Apr 25 10:15:27 <thos> woo
Apr 25 10:15:30 <thos> sorted what?
Apr 25 10:18:34 <SpeedEvil> I'm guessing he's written a complete set of user-ready phone applications.
Apr 25 10:19:09 <SpeedEvil> Or maybe just worked out how to change themes.
Apr 25 10:21:20 <guillaum1> ScaredyCat: hi.  Do you know an application already using PhoneKit with dbus ? 
Apr 25 10:21:44 <Sup3rkiddo> the dialer
Apr 25 10:21:54 <Sup3rkiddo> uses phonekit
Apr 25 10:22:44 <thos> Messages also uses PhoneKit
Apr 25 10:22:54 <thos> (the SMS application)
Apr 25 10:23:02 <thos> oh and the GSM indicator I think
Apr 25 10:23:18 <guillaum1> Sup3rkiddo, thos: thanks ! I'll look at the code
Apr 25 10:23:50 <Sup3rkiddo> yay....my first good deed today
Apr 25 10:26:39 <ScaredyCat> yes, thos ... theme switching
Apr 25 10:27:52 * SpeedEvil has GPS antenna :)
Apr 25 10:28:07 * SpeedEvil has GPS antenna with the wrong plug :<
Apr 25 10:28:45 * zash has coffee
Apr 25 10:29:22 <SpeedEvil> Has anyone used an external antenna with GTA01 GPS - and if so - how do you switch it?
Apr 25 10:29:37 <ScaredyCat> what frequecy antena do we need...
Apr 25 10:29:43 <SpeedEvil> GPS
Apr 25 10:30:18 <ahven> plug & play
Apr 25 10:30:26 <ahven> no switching required
Apr 25 10:30:27 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Apr 25 10:30:32 <SpeedEvil> I just ordered the wrong one.
Apr 25 10:30:53 * Sup3rkiddo laughs at SpeedEvil 
Apr 25 10:33:26 * SpeedEvil sends ninja salmon to attack Sup3rkiddo.
Apr 25 10:35:19 <ScaredyCat> no, I mean I was given some antenna - I want to know if it's compatible
Apr 25 10:35:38 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Apr 25 10:35:46 <SpeedEvil> Does it plug into the little hole on the side?
Apr 25 10:35:54 <SpeedEvil> If so, does it pick up GPS.
Apr 25 10:35:59 <SpeedEvil> If so, it's compatible.
Apr 25 10:38:46 <ScaredyCat> fails at #1
Apr 25 10:38:48 <ScaredyCat>  :(
Apr 25 10:42:13 * SpeedEvil passes ScaredyCat a hammer.
Apr 25 10:42:40 * SpeedEvil pases ScaredyCat http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8859
Apr 25 10:44:30 <ahven> hmm
Apr 25 10:44:32 <ahven> pretty nice
Apr 25 10:53:13 <affen> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Switching_Keyboards
Apr 25 10:53:19 <affen> is not possible anymore? :(
Apr 25 11:25:25 <Weiss> affen: hmm?
Apr 25 11:38:48 <Weiss> affen: i'm still just learning, but i think you need to substitute "opkg" instead of "ipkg"
Apr 25 11:42:14 <affen> Weiss, I'm not that dumb :)
Apr 25 11:43:03 <affen> I can understand the difference between non-existent package and wrong commandline
Apr 25 11:44:26 <Weiss> :) no problem... what goes wrong when you try? (i'd kind of like to substitute the keyboard as well, so i'm interested if it doesn't work..)
Apr 25 11:44:53 <SpeedEvil> I also want an alternate keyboard.
Apr 25 11:45:41 <SpeedEvil> And I was playing with matchbox-stroke - which I found interesting.
Apr 25 11:47:19 <affen> no matchbox-keyboard-inputmethod package
Apr 25 11:47:22 <affen> for starters
Apr 25 11:47:37 <affen> opkg list | grep keyboard
Apr 25 11:48:01 <affen> same with -im
Apr 25 11:48:04 <affen> and -applet
Apr 25 11:50:47 <ScaredyCat> does it work ok SpeedEvil
Apr 25 11:50:47 <ScaredyCat> ?
Apr 25 11:50:53 <SpeedEvil> It used to
Apr 25 11:51:18 <SpeedEvil> I'm talking of Novembers images say.
Apr 25 11:51:27 <ScaredyCat> ahh k.. might test that
Apr 25 11:51:34 <ScaredyCat> affen: which repo ?
Apr 25 11:51:40 <affen> ScaredyCat, default
Apr 25 11:51:55 <affen> yesterdays image methinks
Apr 25 11:52:00 <ScaredyCat> try mine
Apr 25 11:52:24 <affen> link?
Apr 25 11:52:49 <ScaredyCat> actually.. 
Apr 25 11:52:52 <ScaredyCat> don't..
Apr 25 11:53:06 <ScaredyCat> I'll add them to my build list
Apr 25 11:59:11 <ScaredyCat> they'll be available shortly I hope.. (provided they build ok ) 
Apr 25 12:17:30 <cb22_> i dont know much about gfx, but when the screen changes, are all areas redrawn or just certain ones (thinking of xdamage)
Apr 25 12:45:59 <Mek> ljp: do you happen to know anything about Qt4 for X11 on openmoko, or do you strictly deal with qtopia?
Apr 25 12:47:16 <edistar_> raster: ping
Apr 25 12:48:22 <raster> edistar_: pong
Apr 25 12:51:11 <edistar_> raster: it may be a stupid question but as the sd card and the screen are both tied to the glamo, couldn't one tell the glamo to get the video data from SD? I thought of this because the bottleneck is only between glamo and cpu.. so if one could only send the intructions where and which data to grab, could the glamo do that? as I said, may be a completely stupid idea.. it may be that all data must pass through the cpu
Apr 25 12:52:09 <Mek> wouldn't that at least require the video to already be decoded? (except perhaps for mpeg4)
Apr 25 12:52:16 <raster> edistar: 1. glamo can ONLY decode mpeg4
Apr 25 12:52:32 <raster> edistar: 2. u are missing filesystem checking and decode - tho u can probably handle that
Apr 25 12:53:00 <raster> edistar: 3. u'd need an api/mechanism to FEED it the data in exactly the mp4 stream it wants AND decode to screen (u'l need an nda to get that info)
Apr 25 12:53:12 <raster> so 1. codec only is possible
Apr 25 12:53:25 <raster> 2 its really complicated with a lot of gtochas
Apr 25 12:53:29 <raster> 3. u need an nda
Apr 25 12:53:42 <edistar> raster: ok, was just an idea :)
Apr 25 12:53:54 <raster> possible
Apr 25 12:53:57 <raster> for a limited usage case
Apr 25 12:54:12 <raster> any code we do for this will not live beyond a gta02
Apr 25 12:54:12 <edistar> ok
Apr 25 12:54:18 <edistar> raster: yeah, true
Apr 25 12:54:20 <raster> and that means its a poor software investment
Apr 25 12:54:26 <raster> if we do it the oss way
Apr 25 12:54:34 <raster> we would need to build a good generic infrastructure for this
Apr 25 12:54:41 <edistar> I can see that it's not very practical for you..
Apr 25 12:54:44 <raster> that will be clean dand not be nasty hack-code
Apr 25 12:54:51 <raster> if u dont want to be laughed at
Apr 25 12:54:57 <raster> and that takes a lot of effort time -a nd thus money
Apr 25 12:55:12 <raster> and as such... if it doesnt live on for many products... is not worth it
Apr 25 12:55:12 <raster> :(
Apr 25 12:56:05 <edistar> raster: do you have any if there will be a 3d chip in the gta03? and which one potentially
Apr 25 12:56:08 <edistar> ?
Apr 25 12:57:23 <raster> can't say
Apr 25 12:57:34 <raster> as such we don't really talk about future products
Apr 25 12:57:39 <edistar> ok
Apr 25 12:57:41 <raster> esepcially when our current one isnt out the door
Apr 25 12:57:42 <raster> :)
Apr 25 12:57:58 <raster> u'll have to divine it oyourself from mailing lists and snippets of info
Apr 25 12:58:00 <edistar> raster: :P but it will be more successful than the glamo, I suppose
Apr 25 12:58:12 <raster> ut i can say we are looking at the samsung 6400 right now
Apr 25 12:58:27 <raster> finding SEPARATe gfx chips for embedded devices is HARD
Apr 25 12:58:33 <raster> almsot all are integrated in the SOC
Apr 25 12:58:39 <raster> so u basically can forget it
Apr 25 12:58:45 <raster> if its not in the SOC - dont bother
Apr 25 12:58:52 <edistar> I was wondering why OM took the glamo anyway
Apr 25 12:59:33 <Vegar> it sounds like the slow glamo bus cripples the cpu
Apr 25 12:59:38 <Vegar> or am I wrong?
Apr 25 12:59:55 <edistar> Vegar: no, it cripples graphics output
Apr 25 13:00:03 <raster> edistar:  decision was made befor ei joined
Apr 25 13:00:07 <raster> but i believe it was:
Apr 25 13:00:13 <raster> 1. to get extra SDIO lines to wifi coul be added
Apr 25 13:00:32 <Vegar> edistar: yes, but the CPU would spend most of its time pushing data to the glamo
Apr 25 13:00:33 <raster> 2. to remoe video refersh bandwidth from an already memory bandwidth limtied device
Apr 25 13:00:46 <edistar> Vegar: depends how you write the driver
Apr 25 13:00:53 <raster> 3. try and make up for a low powered device trying to drive VGA
Apr 25 13:01:11 <raster> edistar:  it depends on what u do
Apr 25 13:01:17 * SpeedEvil wonders if the OLPC chip is available.
Apr 25 13:01:18 <raster> if its able to b acceleated at all on the glamo
Apr 25 13:01:21 <raster> and if it is accelerated
Apr 25 13:01:30 <raster> if it isnt - u go back to doing it in cpu and dumping the pixels
Apr 25 13:01:58 <raster> also i think a belief that the spec sheet said "opengl es"
Apr 25 13:02:03 <raster> but the problem is the gotchas
Apr 25 13:02:10 <raster> i dont think they read the detailed info
Apr 25 13:02:18 <raster> like can not to vga res for opengl
Apr 25 13:02:19 <SpeedEvil> I wonder if they had the detailed info.
Apr 25 13:02:37 <raster> 256x256 textues really limits u to uniniteresting use of the 3d chip
Apr 25 13:02:48 <raster> and no render-to-texture is a major bummer for anything 2d
Apr 25 13:03:00 <raster> as u almost always end up needing itnermediate buffers
Apr 25 13:03:10 <SpeedEvil> FPGA!
Apr 25 13:03:20 * SpeedEvil wonders idly how much the glamo costs.
Apr 25 13:04:10 <SpeedEvil> Though FGPAs with a large chunk of a meg onboard are not cheap even today.
Apr 25 13:04:30 <raster> and apparently they consume a lot of power
Apr 25 13:04:35 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Apr 25 13:04:44 <SpeedEvil> Though they've gotten better than they were.
Apr 25 13:05:10 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Apr 25 13:05:34 * SpeedEvil realises that his current project might almost be able to drive the LCD.
Apr 25 13:05:47 <Vegar> what advantages does the glamo bring?
Apr 25 13:05:49 <edistar> SpeedEvil: your project being?
Apr 25 13:06:03 <SpeedEvil> edistar: a small microcontroller interfaced to a SDRAM.
Apr 25 13:06:07 <edistar> Vegar: an additional SDIO for the SD card
Apr 25 13:06:11 <edistar> SpeedEvil: nice
Apr 25 13:06:21 <raster> thu getting u wifi
Apr 25 13:06:24 <SpeedEvil> edistar: it would not do any accelleration, but could in principle replay a framebuffer to the LCD.
Apr 25 13:06:26 <raster> thus
Apr 25 13:06:27 <edistar> Vegar: cause that SDIO used for sd in the gta02 is used for wifi
Apr 25 13:06:38 <Vegar> ok
Apr 25 13:07:02 <edistar> are there things like SDIO multipliers that could have been used?
Apr 25 13:07:07 <SpeedEvil> If I Was Designing It. I suspect I'd have gone for an extra microcontroller with SDIO.
Apr 25 13:07:34 <SpeedEvil> But then, if I was designing it, I'd have vague scribles, and little more without funding.
Apr 25 13:07:50 <edistar> SpeedEvil: hehe
Apr 25 13:08:00 <raster> hehehe
Apr 25 13:13:16 <edistar> raster: thanks for the info ;) my idea --> /dev/null :P
Apr 25 13:13:53 <raster> HAHAHAHA
Apr 25 13:14:04 <raster> seriously - glamo does a few good things
Apr 25 13:14:15 <raster> but its downsides imho are an issue if u want to do anything animated
Apr 25 13:14:21 <raster> stills is what it can do
Apr 25 13:14:43 <raster> our memory bandwidth on the gta01 is 50m/sec
Apr 25 13:15:24 <raster> well a bit more
Apr 25 13:15:40 <raster> but we are down to about 40m/sec because of the vidoe refrsh for a vga display
Apr 25 13:15:48 <raster> he glamo ups our BW to 53m/sec or so
Apr 25 13:15:51 <edistar> raster: can that be compensated somehow or will performance definitely drop in gta02?
Apr 25 13:15:55 <raster> as we get that back
Apr 25 13:16:07 <raster> so system memory bandwidth goes up
Apr 25 13:16:11 <raster> good for executiona nd performance
Apr 25 13:16:20 <raster> but now to get data to video - u go thru a 7m/sec pipe
Apr 25 13:16:24 <raster> then u lose again
Apr 25 13:16:29 <raster> so it depends what u do
Apr 25 13:16:34 <raster> as suh tho
Apr 25 13:16:44 <raster> almsot all designs these days use up some syste mem bandwidht for video refresh
Apr 25 13:16:45 <edistar> ok
Apr 25 13:16:49 <raster> imho the trick is NOt to use VGA
Apr 25 13:16:55 <raster> go back to QVGA
Apr 25 13:17:02 <raster> or WQVGA
Apr 25 13:17:04 <raster> or so
Apr 25 13:17:07 <raster> cuts it down by a lot
Apr 25 13:17:11 <edistar> well.. that'd make the creen useles
Apr 25 13:17:12 <raster> and frankly - still looks good
Apr 25 13:17:15 <edistar> *useless
Apr 25 13:17:16 <raster> no
Apr 25 13:17:18 <raster> not at all
Apr 25 13:17:21 <raster> most phones have that screen
Apr 25 13:17:26 <raster> its not useless at all
Apr 25 13:17:35 <raster> actually spend some time looking at them
Apr 25 13:17:37 <edistar> but for looking at pictures its much cooler to have vga
Apr 25 13:17:40 <edistar> likewise for browsing
Apr 25 13:17:55 <raster> its just as nice in QVGA/WQVGA
Apr 25 13:18:03 <raster> u canr read most of the text @ vga
Apr 25 13:18:18 <raster> i think there ar ea few poele - lik eme, with better than 20/20 vision that can actually make out such small text
Apr 25 13:18:35 <raster> i have experienced a lot of people and their level of vision
Apr 25 13:18:46 <raster> 19 out of 20 people have much worse than i do
Apr 25 13:18:52 <raster> and even i think that the vga is pointless - i
Apr 25 13:18:54 <raster> CAN read
Apr 25 13:19:01 <raster> but its not that much to write home about
Apr 25 13:19:12 <raster> and i'd rather have smoother interaction
Apr 25 13:19:26 <edistar> I can't say without testing :)
Apr 25 13:19:30 <raster> trust me
Apr 25 13:19:31 <raster> i have
Apr 25 13:19:32 <raster> :)
Apr 25 13:19:56 <raster> anyway
Apr 25 13:19:58 <raster> time to bail
Apr 25 13:20:04 <edistar> it wouldn't be a problem to use OM with qvga, right? might it even be possible to switch easily?
Apr 25 13:20:05 <raster> ajios!
Apr 25 13:20:13 <edistar> raster: thanks again :)
Apr 25 13:20:22 <raster> edistar:  its porbably what we need to do anyway
Apr 25 13:20:45 <edistar> ok
Apr 25 13:20:50 <raster> as frankl qvga screens are MUCh easier to source, cheaper, and allow us to do more with gfx for less
Apr 25 13:20:59 <raster> and frankly.. are "good enough for a phone
Apr 25 13:22:22 <ScaredyCat> thos: just fyi  - it is your theme on the mediaplayer
Apr 25 13:22:27 <ScaredyCat> (bug)
Apr 25 13:28:38 <Bish> freerunner seems to be quite ready, right?
Apr 25 13:32:33 <ScaredyCat> thos: what ever happened to your gtk theme editor... it looked promising
Apr 25 13:33:12 <linuxxr> i hope it is ready
Apr 25 13:34:54 <Bish> :) me too
Apr 25 13:35:02 <Bish> just cant wait, i hope it wont be sold out or something
Apr 25 13:48:39 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03thomas * r4398 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/ (libopkg/opkg.c libopkg/opkg.h tests/libopkg_test.c): opkg: implement package listing in new libopkg
Apr 25 13:49:09 <thos> ScaredyCat, oh
Apr 25 13:49:15 <thos> ScaredyCat, the pixbuf theme editor?
Apr 25 13:50:01 <ScaredyCat> http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2007/08/27/unnamed-project/
Apr 25 13:50:07 <thos> ScaredyCat, yeah I should probably dig that out and make the code available
Apr 25 13:50:27 <ScaredyCat> it would make things easier :)
Apr 25 13:50:48 <thos> well, it doesn't solve the fact that the pixbuf theming is slow on gta02/01
Apr 25 13:52:54 <Bish> hm guys.. will freerunner released with qtopia?
Apr 25 13:53:25 <thos> Bish, wouldn't *you* like to know!
Apr 25 13:53:58 <Bish> why?
Apr 25 13:54:11 <thos> Bish, you tell me
Apr 25 13:54:22 <Bish> gr..
Apr 25 13:57:33 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03miles * rbe24d407704d 10/src/ (Makefile.am tests-motion.c): motion sensor code fixed
Apr 25 13:59:19 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03andy * r0631bb2f6c73 10/src/ (Makefile.am dm2.c dm2.h tests-logs.c): split-out-logs.patch
Apr 25 14:05:22 <CVirus> there was this video long ago on the mailing list about accelerometers ... link ?
Apr 25 14:08:58 <CVirus> that thing named shookle or something
Apr 25 14:09:01 <CVirus> can't recall
Apr 25 14:49:51 <CVirus> damn .. can't find it
Apr 25 14:54:53 <loufoque> will the freerunner be released before christmas, and if then, will it still be that expensive?
Apr 25 15:18:11 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r253 10/trunk/software/pyneod/pygsm/genericmodem.py: convert modem-charset to unicode before dbus-transport
Apr 25 15:40:02 <CVirus> MichaelShiloh: Cairo, Egypt ... suggestions :-D ?
Apr 25 15:41:56 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r254 10/trunk/software/pyneod/pygsm/genericmodem.py: fixed typo
Apr 25 15:45:25 <edistar> loufoque: lol
Apr 25 16:28:24 <saurabh1403> hello everyone
Apr 25 16:30:53 <elation> Hell
Apr 25 16:52:57 <cworth> o
Apr 25 17:31:32 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03zecke * r4352b577eb93 10/src/libraries/qtopiaprediction/ (wordprediction.cpp wordprediction.h): Make the API future proof. Use a utf8 encoded string even if we just extract the first letter and use it as latin1
Apr 25 17:32:01 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: 03emdete * r255 10/trunk/software/pyneod/ (pygsm/genericmodem.py pypppd.py): 
Apr 25 17:32:01 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: fixed: hangup an initated call
Apr 25 17:32:01 <CIA-42> freesmartphone.org: release muxer line if pppd crashes
Apr 25 17:40:01 <doc|fail> howdy, so, I've got someone in a potential group of ten who's interested but worrying about that led thing. I know it's only minor but just to be clear, they're going to fix that on all phones, right?
Apr 25 17:44:27 <tc> doc|fail: I've tried to get an answer in here from Michael Shiloh and on the mailing list, but nothing.
Apr 25 17:46:01 <uzytkownik> Hello. Sorry for question that 'answer' is in topic but (approximately) when GTA02 will be released? On wiki 'spring 2008' is indicated as possible date. However as most of spring is gone it would be nice to know either more precise date or that date has been shifted.
Apr 25 17:46:26 <doc|fail> uzytkownik: soon
Apr 25 17:46:34 <doc|fail> not set date (publicly)
Apr 25 17:47:25 <doc|fail> uzytkownik:we know it has gone through production testing for yield and had gone into destructive testing so if that works out ok it should be in production soon
Apr 25 17:48:21 <summatusmentis> if it fails destructive testing, does it go back through PVT once tweaked?
Apr 25 17:49:25 <doc|fail> I'm not a production engineer but probably depends on how big the differences are
Apr 25 17:49:43 <summatusmentis> yeah, that makes sense
Apr 25 17:49:54 <XorA|gone> play it safe, dont expect anything until june, that way it could be early in your mind :-)
Apr 25 17:53:53 <uzytkownik> OK. Thanks for information. I'll wait until the end of June.
Apr 25 17:55:57 <tc> doc|fail: Have you got any ideas to get information about the LED issue?
Apr 25 17:56:25 <doc|fail> tc: pitchforks and flaming torches
Apr 25 17:56:30 <tc> haha
Apr 25 17:56:48 <doc|fail> tc: really, I don't think it's a problem at all, but would be nice to be able to say 'this revision has been made'
Apr 25 17:57:02 <doc|fail> it's only a slight extra draw on power for the moment the led is lit
Apr 25 17:57:54 <tc> I thought that too, but the silence is starting to worry me.
Apr 25 17:59:28 <ewon> my TyTn II arrives monday
Apr 25 18:01:56 <SpeedEvil> A new app request. http://www.geekologie.com/2007/08/rocklighter_website_for_concer.php
Apr 25 18:02:32 <kdean06> Someone requested I test some headset things for my reviews today so I dug out my headset and there no new image. :(
Apr 25 18:04:05 <doc|fail> SpeedEvil: Hah, I was at a concert once in about 2003 and was holding up my phone so someone away from the concert could listen. Other people started lighting their phones. I think I started a trend :(
Apr 25 18:04:25 <summatusmentis> ewon: why'd you buy a TyTn II ?
Apr 25 18:04:46 <doc|fail> ugh, windows mobile
Apr 25 18:04:48 * doc|fail kills
Apr 25 18:12:57 <mmontour> doc|fail: If you're referring to the Vanlug group-buy, the LED issue is not the only one I'm concerned about. There was also something about a too-small capacitor in the audio output path, and also (IMHO) a decent chance that more HW bugs will be found after the first batch of phones has been shipped. I also include GSM/GPS/etc. firmware as "hardware" since it seems users will not be permitted to upgrade those in the field.
Apr 25 18:13:26 <doc|fail> mmontour: oh, hello there :)
Apr 25 18:13:30 * doc|fail reads
Apr 25 18:14:40 <doc|fail> mmontour: I hadn't heard about the audio capacitor
Apr 25 18:15:52 <mmontour> Checking the list archives for a reference...
Apr 25 18:16:00 <doc|fail> what's the effect of that?
Apr 25 18:17:37 <mmontour> Here's one msg in the thread: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-April/002089.html (as I said I haven't had time to keep up and see how it ended)
Apr 25 18:18:54 <doc|fail> thanks
Apr 25 18:20:35 <doc|fail> mmontour: seems it's only related to bass on the speakers, not headphones
Apr 25 18:21:54 * wibbit_ wishes all loud speakers on mobiles (beyond the phone ringing) would globally unanimously stop working, for ever
Apr 25 18:22:31 <doc|fail> hehe
Apr 25 18:22:57 <doc|fail> yeah, btu you can't have crazy frog without decent bass on the speakers
Apr 25 18:23:05 * doc|fail forgot to add !!11OMG
Apr 25 18:23:21 * doc|fail gets back in his box
Apr 25 18:23:28 <wibbit_> :)
Apr 25 18:25:56 <anrp> crackle
Apr 25 18:27:30 <wibbit_> I can't be the only one, that gets anoyed on public transport having to listen to some one elses idea of nice music, being blared out over tiny speakers
Apr 25 18:27:53 <SpeedEvil> Yeah. we need an 18" sub in the neo.
Apr 25 18:28:45 <wibbit_> honestly, I'd be happy to have an optional 34" sub with the neo
Apr 25 18:28:49 <wibbit_> because at least I could then
Apr 25 18:29:00 <wibbit_> A) Laugh at the dopy git carrying it around
Apr 25 18:29:06 <wibbit_> B) pick it up and drop it on them
Apr 25 18:29:08 <wibbit_> repeatedly
Apr 25 18:29:15 <wibbit_> with conviction
Apr 25 18:29:27 <doc|fail> until the police came
Apr 25 18:30:10 <wibbit_> true
Apr 25 18:30:17 <wibbit_> then they'll be able to help me
Apr 25 18:31:03 <SpeedEvil> with conviction.
Apr 25 18:31:22 <wibbit_> hmmm
Apr 25 18:31:37 <wibbit_> wrong sort of conviction, besides, they don't convict, the judge does that :p
Apr 25 18:32:02 <doc|fail> wibbit_: not our cops :(
Apr 25 18:32:12 <wibbit_> doc|fail: where you from?
Apr 25 18:32:37 <doc|fail> wibbit_: living in vancouver, transit cops here taser people who run from them having not paid the $2.50 fare
Apr 25 18:33:04 <wibbit_> Well, tasering a deviant who's obviously out to take over the world, isn't quite the same as conviction
Apr 25 18:33:35 <doc|fail> nope, but it's close to dropping a heavy object on them repeatedly, with conviction :)
Apr 25 18:33:56 <wibbit_> Were they listening to really loud music when they were running away?
Apr 25 18:33:58 <doc|fail> also, take over the world? $2.50 at a time? :)
Apr 25 18:34:11 <wibbit_> doc|fail: obviously trying to bankrupt "the man"
Apr 25 18:34:17 <doc|fail> wibbit_: no, they were hearing 'bzzzzzzt!
Apr 25 18:34:32 <wibbit_> hehehe
Apr 25 18:34:45 <wibbit_> shouldn't really laugh, as it's probably not nice
Apr 25 18:34:48 <wibbit_> but, it's funny
Apr 25 18:34:51 <wibbit_> so sue me :D
Apr 25 18:35:00 * doc|fail calls his lawyer
Apr 25 18:35:00 <mwester> kdean06:  I'll have a new kernel for you to test in a few hours.  openmoko.org was down all night, so my build had to wait until morning.
Apr 25 18:35:18 <kdean06> .org went down too?
Apr 25 18:35:19 <kdean06> Okay.
Apr 25 18:35:21 <kdean06> Cool. :)
Apr 25 18:37:00 <ScaredyCat> affen: ping
Apr 25 18:37:06 <wibbit_> pong
Apr 25 18:37:23 <loufoque> how come the iphone is superior to the freerunner, costs less, and was released way before?
Apr 25 18:38:03 <wibbit_> loufoque: define superior
Apr 25 18:38:50 <kdean06> loufoque, It's not. Bulk ordering coupled with cult following ensured SOME sales. Because they could produce it faster.
Apr 25 18:39:07 <kdean06> loufoque, That said, Apple didn't get my money. Openmoko did.
Apr 25 18:39:22 <wibbit_> sales of the iphone isn't nearly as good as apple hoped
Apr 25 18:39:59 <loufoque> wibbit_: superior hardware
Apr 25 18:40:19 <wibbit_> loufoque: what is it about the iphone that is superior?
Apr 25 18:41:23 <mwester> Apple has huge resources in terms of money to spend on development, engineers to throw at development, has no real concerns about the openness of the hardware to consider, has huge experience in extraordinarily-good design of hand-held products, and because Steve is not afraid to loose money on the first million or two units sold.  And it doesn't hurt that Steve can strong-arm AT&T either.
Apr 25 18:42:09 * wibbit_ still wants to know what is superior (not including looks)
Apr 25 18:42:35 <mwester> That said, "superior" is a value judgement, and my response is based on the things that I consider to be of value.  Frankly, most Apple-fan-boys don't value "open" very much.
Apr 25 18:43:19 <wibbit_> I wouldn't buy a first generation any thing from apple
Apr 25 18:43:38 <mwester> (Apple could package the contents of their trash cans, call it "i-trash", put it in that snazzy apple packaging, and it would sell.
Apr 25 18:43:39 <wibbit_> they seem to treat the first early adopters as beta testers
Apr 25 18:43:42 <mwester> )
Apr 25 18:43:57 <loufoque> it's smaller, thinnier, weights less, better design, while having the same size of screen, it has a faster CPU, a better graphics accelerator, quad-band GSM, EDGE, a camera, more buttons, light and proximity sensor, usb 2, more powerful battery, more flash memory
Apr 25 18:44:14 <loufoque> much more flash memory, I should say.
Apr 25 18:44:29 <wibbit_> loufoque: do you actually have any idea what you're talking about?
Apr 25 18:44:52 <loufoque> about how the iphone hardware is better and costs less.
Apr 25 18:45:02 <wibbit_> right
Apr 25 18:45:02 <doc|fail> loufoque: no gps, non-replaceable batter, lower res screen
Apr 25 18:45:11 <doc|fail> *battery
Apr 25 18:45:18 <ScaredyCat> and the iphone smells too
Apr 25 18:45:25 <wibbit_> and, erm, the iphone only has 1 button
Apr 25 18:45:25 <wibbit_> 1
Apr 25 18:45:27 <doc|fail> hat proc is in the iphone?
Apr 25 18:45:31 <loufoque> the fact that the freerunner has a GPS is pretty cool, yes.
Apr 25 18:45:38 * doc|fail stabs self
Apr 25 18:45:41 <doc|fail> *what
Apr 25 18:45:56 <loufoque> the main problem with the iphone is that it's not open.
Apr 25 18:46:07 <wibbit_> and it's from apple
Apr 25 18:46:24 <wibbit_> apple is worse than microsoft
Apr 25 18:47:02 <wibbit_> Apple iphone has more memory, but it's fixed. You're limited to 8 or 16GB, theoretically the freerunner will be unlimited as it's expandable.
Apr 25 18:47:20 <wibbit_> The screen has a lower res, and isn't as high quality as the free runner (though it is multi touch which is cool)
Apr 25 18:47:59 <wibbit_> Yes, in a few places the iPhone is better, but in many places it is not
Apr 25 18:48:15 <doc|fail> better != nicer to look at
Apr 25 18:48:16 <wibbit_> loufoque: May I suggest, before you make assertions, that you spend a bit of time actually reviewing the difference
Apr 25 18:48:34 * zedstar_ got an iphone yesterday for work purposes and flashed the bastard....not bad 169 quid
Apr 25 18:48:42 * wibbit_ fears the iPhone probably does look better than the soon to be released freerunner
Apr 25 18:51:50 <zedstar_> stuck me vodafone PAYG SIM in
Apr 25 18:52:18 <wibbit_> and?
Apr 25 18:52:26 <zedstar_> works fine
Apr 25 18:53:17 <zedstar_> i jailbroke it i mean..took 10 minutes
Apr 25 18:54:07 <loufoque> wibbit_: a 8 GB microSD card is ridiculously expensive
Apr 25 18:54:18 <zedstar_> first then i did was SSH in and changed password and broke it :)
Apr 25 18:54:22 <wibbit_> zedstar_ are you not concerned that apple will release an update that will render your phone dead?
Apr 25 18:54:24 <zedstar_> apparently u cant do that
Apr 25 18:54:47 <zedstar_> wibbit no cos i updated it from 1.1.2 to 1.1.4 they have been cracking every version
Apr 25 18:54:48 <wibbit_> loufoque: They are not cheap, but you don't have to buy loads of 8GB ones, you can buy smaller ones, and in time they will drastically come down in price
Apr 25 18:55:12 <zedstar_> plus it is 169 quid i couldnt really get anything better for that price unlocked
Apr 25 18:55:30 <doc|fail> loufoque: expensive... for now...
Apr 25 18:55:32 <wibbit_> zedstar_ fair enough
Apr 25 18:55:51 <zedstar_> plus im not paying for it....research purposes like
Apr 25 18:56:25 <wibbit_> I think though, I'll wait for a few months after the freerunner release, before I get one, as I think mmontour is right, that problems will be found after release (just as they are found in ALL products)
Apr 25 19:00:58 <zedstar_> one thing that is quite impressive on the iphone is the way it seamlessly changes from wifi to gprs/edge when roam about
Apr 25 19:02:01 <wibbit_> I used the iPhone to do a bit browsing, and I do like how smooth zooming in and out and navigating, going from app to app, was incredibly smooth
Apr 25 19:02:05 <wibbit_> didn't test the roaming though
Apr 25 19:02:41 <wibbit_> the fanatic, who's phone I was looking at, wouldn't let it out of his site
Apr 25 19:02:53 <wibbit_> fanatic fanatic fanatic
Apr 25 19:03:06 <zedstar_> the browser is nice but other than that i dont find anything that amazing about it......edge is still a bit slow
Apr 25 19:03:17 <loufoque> 3G is needed
Apr 25 19:03:28 <loufoque> for decent speed
Apr 25 19:03:28 <wibbit_> yup, all in all, I struggle to stay awake
Apr 25 19:03:32 <XorA|gone> to break an iphone, turn it sideways and try and open a keyboard
Apr 25 19:03:39 <XorA|gone> then watch the apple junkies squirm
Apr 25 19:03:43 <zedstar_> yeh....i have my nokia tablet hooked up to 3.5G and is miles better browsing experience in terms of speed
Apr 25 19:03:58 <loufoque> 3.5G? What's that?
Apr 25 19:04:04 <zedstar_> HSDPA
Apr 25 19:04:09 <doc|fail> hsdpa? you bastard
Apr 25 19:04:12 <loufoque> that's 3G to me
Apr 25 19:04:27 <doc|fail> we get 1mb for $5 here :(
Apr 25 19:04:38 <XorA|gone> HSDPA rules, but I dont get it here :-(
Apr 25 19:04:45 <wibbit_> loufoque: yes, but to you, the iPhone is better, so we know how much faith to put in your opinion :p
Apr 25 19:04:57 <loufoque> HSDPA is 3G to wikipedia too
Apr 25 19:05:24 <zedstar_> well it is popularly used to not mean UMTS
Apr 25 19:05:42 <zedstar_> i wouldnt loose sleep over it ;)
Apr 25 19:06:04 <loufoque> 3.5G is more wimax and stuff
Apr 25 19:06:10 <zedstar_> also the Nokia icon says 3.5G so blame them
Apr 25 19:06:55 <loufoque> hmm actually wimax is 4G
Apr 25 19:07:04 <XorA|gone> HSDPA is 3.5G same as GPRS is 2.5G
Apr 25 19:07:11 <Robot101> wimax is so 4G, 3.5G is definitely HSDPA
Apr 25 19:07:16 <XorA|gone> EDGE is 2.5G I meant to say
Apr 25 19:07:31 <Robot101> it's 3G technology plus a bit more... :D
Apr 25 19:07:34 <doc|fail> you're all arguing about made up terms :)
Apr 25 19:07:51 <zedstar_> well yeh like i say it's all academic anyway all cellular networks suck :)
Apr 25 19:08:05 <zedstar_> ping is still crap on 3.5G
Apr 25 19:08:51 <zedstar_> i certainly wouldnt want to pay a contract for the crap that is out there
Apr 25 19:09:03 <loufoque> 4G is a move in the right direction
Apr 25 19:09:08 <loufoque> it's IP-based
Apr 25 19:09:12 <anrp> my computer has 4G!
Apr 25 19:09:15 <anrp> ... of ram
Apr 25 19:09:18 <anrp> does that count?
Apr 25 19:09:23 <loufoque> no
Apr 25 19:09:32 <anrp> boo
Apr 25 19:09:45 <loufoque> are you even using a PAE or 64 bit kernel?
Apr 25 19:10:15 <malik1972> @anrp> we have 128G
Apr 25 19:10:23 <loufoque> otherwise you only have 3 GB
Apr 25 19:10:37 <anrp> i know, and i don't care enough to recover more than 3.2g
Apr 25 19:10:38 <anrp> so meh
Apr 25 19:11:22 * XorA|gone has 6G in 3 computers, thats even better
Apr 25 19:11:34 <anrp> 6g?
Apr 25 19:11:46 <XorA|gone> 4G + 1G + 1G
Apr 25 19:11:46 <Qwell> XorA|gone: triple-core?
Apr 25 19:11:46 <malik1972> 128g in one computer
Apr 25 19:13:08 <loufoque> anrp: just enable PAE in your kernel
Apr 25 19:13:12 * mwester decides to join in on the contest, and figures he's a winner for the most lop-sided system:  a 800MHz P-III with 1GB RAM.
Apr 25 19:13:45 <loufoque> my P3 only has 512
Apr 25 19:13:56 <malik1972> hehe
Apr 25 19:14:03 <anrp> that's lopsided?
Apr 25 19:14:29 <wibbit_> zedstar_ I fear that traditional ISP's are going to start sucking as much as mobile networks
Apr 25 19:14:37 <wibbit_> Not speed wise, but locking down services
Apr 25 19:15:16 <doc|fail> wibbit_: if that's the case then there's an opening for wifi networks 
Apr 25 19:15:29 <XorA|gone> mwester: I got a 600Mhz Celeron Mobile with 1GB (otherwise known as eeePC)
Apr 25 19:15:32 <anrp> hopefully running on licensed frequencies
Apr 25 19:15:41 <wibbit_> doc|fail: Possibly, but to be useful they would still need to link to a traditionally ISP
Apr 25 19:15:48 <anrp> running a business on 2.4 is a marginal idea, at best
Apr 25 19:16:02 <ScaredyCat> eeePC - a PC for people Up North
Apr 25 19:16:11 <XorA|gone> IP by avian carrier, cut out the middle man
Apr 25 19:16:12 <anrp> north?
Apr 25 19:16:16 <doc|fail> wibbit_: they can connect to an isp but it need not be your traditional ISP
Apr 25 19:16:28 <ScaredyCat> the byeck Pc is out later for them too...
Apr 25 19:16:29 <wibbit_> doc|fail: hmmm
Apr 25 19:16:41 <ScaredyCat> anrp: cultural joke...
Apr 25 19:16:50 * XorA|gone is Up North
Apr 25 19:16:50 <doc|fail> ScaredyCat: it's ok, I got it :)
Apr 25 19:17:18 * XorA|gone is not Dan Sath
Apr 25 19:17:27 * zedstar_ grins at scaredycat
Apr 25 19:17:54 <zedstar_> wibbit yeh they will all still bleed us dry
Apr 25 19:18:48 <wibbit_> My concern is the whole idea of net neutrality
Apr 25 19:19:52 <wibbit_> Unless rational/independent governments (that excludes the US I fear) get involved, we could find that the ISP's can not hold us to ransom, but limit what we can do, or charge extravigant prices
Apr 25 19:20:33 * zedstar_ hates telecos like BT who can make obscene profits yet still wanna charge per minute on wifi networks etc
Apr 25 19:20:50 <anrp> ..on wifi?
Apr 25 19:21:06 <zedstar_> yeh on wifi
Apr 25 19:21:26 <malik1972> @all> where can i find openmoko x86 images etc?
Apr 25 19:21:30 <zedstar_> and apply roaming charges on wifi also just to catch u out more
Apr 25 19:21:50 <anrp> what wifi are we talking about
Apr 25 19:21:55 <anrp> 802.11? 2gsm?
Apr 25 19:23:24 <zedstar_> anrp BT in the UK
Apr 25 19:24:05 <anrp> right but what network type
Apr 25 19:24:15 <zedstar_> wifi 802.11
Apr 25 19:25:39 <anrp> http://www.dalkescientific.com/writings/diary/archive/2007/06/01/lolpython.html < lol
Apr 25 19:25:49 <anrp> per minute on a packet network is weird
Apr 25 19:26:42 <zedstar_> the whole business model seems to be well we paid millions for the infrastructure but we gonna rape u anyway for money way over the odds to make large profits for some old geezers in stripey suits
Apr 25 19:30:11 <wibbit> and to be fair, in most cases, they have invested a huge amount of money in the infrastrucutre, but, if they start heavily impeding the performance of certain protocols/ports/hosts to prioratise some one else's it would upset me
Apr 25 19:31:52 <doc|fail> zedstar_: I don't think it's that, it's that they know that if they don't lock it down it becomes a commodity. 
Apr 25 19:32:25 <doc|fail> of course they don't realise that there are plenty of people out there who'd use it much more if it was less locked down, if it was more widely installed and was actually not crap
Apr 25 19:32:48 <zedstar_> but why not invest some of the obscene profits they make back into the infrastructure.....cos they dont need to unless a government intervenes
Apr 25 19:33:41 <wibbit> zedstar_ because, then they wouldn't be as obsenely rich
Apr 25 19:33:54 <doc|fail> zedstar_: no, it's the government intervening that has caused this mess. They give subsidies to certain companies and give virtual monopoly rights to certain ISPs
Apr 25 19:34:17 <doc|fail> look at at&t, they played ball on the wiretapping mess and have since gotten massive government projects
Apr 25 19:34:18 <wibbit> doc|fail: here you're talking about the us government
Apr 25 19:34:28 <wibbit> not all governments are always making the same mistake
Apr 25 19:34:49 <doc|fail> wibbit: not just, look at canada too, 5 or 6 providers but so little real competition the market is stagnant
Apr 25 19:34:50 <zedstar_> in the EU for example we recently saw action to stop the telecos ripping us over GSM roaming charges
Apr 25 19:34:52 <zedstar_> things happen
Apr 25 19:34:56 <zedstar_> but it is too slow
Apr 25 19:35:31 <doc|fail> zedstar_: I don't see that as a major problem for most people, who does that cut costs for? travelling businessmen mainly
Apr 25 19:35:34 <wibbit> zedstar_ however, I also think that they intervene when they shouldn't
Apr 25 19:36:16 <wibbit> zedstar_ i'm perfectly happy for mobile providers to charge fee's when crossing mobile networks, I had no issue withthat.
Apr 25 19:36:29 <wibbit> zedstar_ I just made sure that i was on the same network as most of my friends, or just used the mobile sparingly
Apr 25 19:36:37 <zedstar_> yeh i dont care myself but was pointing out that they do get involved now but not often
Apr 25 19:36:45 <zedstar_> i wont use GSM abroad
Apr 25 19:36:50 <wibbit> zedstar_ however, then ofcom banned that, and they made the money up some where else, so now I get charged more
Apr 25 19:37:27 <wibbit> zedstar_ they roaming charges, vodafone for example had already put in place things to try and reduce that cost.
Apr 25 19:37:44 <zedstar_> i just think the consumer is not getting value for money from telecos in relation to the profit
Apr 25 19:37:57 <zedstar_> but if u dont mind then fair enough
Apr 25 19:38:16 <wibbit> I've got a bigger issue with Banks at the moment :)
Apr 25 19:39:34 <doc|fail> zedstar_: it's the lack of competition that's the problem :/
Apr 25 19:39:49 <doc|fail> zedstar_: and that competition is limited by the number of licenses the governments give out 
Apr 25 19:39:51 <SpeedEvil> zedstar: billions
Apr 25 19:41:04 <SpeedEvil> 20 billion pounds for 3G licenses alone in the UK.
Apr 25 19:41:45 <doc|fail> yeah, similar happened in ireland, then when they got the licenses they couldn't actually afford to roll out the networks because the licenses cost so much
Apr 25 19:42:07 <doc|fail> so Ireland ended up being behind the rest of the world and is only catching up now
Apr 25 19:42:14 <doc|fail> still better than canada though :/
Apr 25 19:42:50 <SpeedEvil> OTOH - telecoms companies had utterly insane values at the time of the 3G auctions IIRC.
Apr 25 19:44:03 <wibbit> as much as I love this conversation, gets me no closer to owner a freerunner :(
Apr 25 19:44:46 <doc|fail> SpeedEvil: only on paper
Apr 25 19:45:05 <SpeedEvil> Sure.
Apr 25 19:45:06 <wibbit> doc|fail: that seems to be all that matters in the current climate
Apr 25 19:45:34 <doc|fail> wibbit: the best quote I've seen to describe the current fiasco is 'freaking doooomed'
Apr 25 19:46:06 <doc|fail> read somewhere that even if the US taxed its population 100% it *still* can't afford to pay off its future obligations
Apr 25 19:46:15 <wibbit> doc|fail: hehe, very appropriate
Apr 25 19:46:26 * wibbit isn't sure why he's laughing
Apr 25 19:46:30 <doc|fail> hah
Apr 25 20:31:34 <markit> anyone knows the price in Euros of FreeRunner? 399$ should be 250 euros, but usually there are tricks about the rate applied
Apr 25 20:31:52 <markit> how much will it cost here in Europe (Italy)
Apr 25 20:38:11 <kdean06> markit, If it works the same way it did with the Neo1973 the way to answer that question is to get a currency converter and convert $399 USD into New Taiwan Dollars, and then find out how many Euros are needed to make that number of New Taiwan Dollars.
Apr 25 20:39:20 <markit> kdean06: I ask because a lot of gods are sold in italy/europe at a much higher price than currency conversion would require
Apr 25 20:39:33 <kdean06> markit, I got about 255.55 Euros with that math.
Apr 25 20:39:39 <markit> seems that company fix a "special higher price" for EU
Apr 25 20:39:49 <kdean06> But that assumes that it's done the same way it was alst time.
Apr 25 20:39:55 <dcordes> I'm ordering 10 of those gods
Apr 25 20:40:00 <markit> well, I hope :)
Apr 25 20:51:56 <loufoque> usually electronic stuff that is sold for x dollars is sold for x euros
Apr 25 20:51:58 <loufoque> if not more
Apr 25 20:52:09 <loufoque> it's much more interesting to import them
Apr 25 20:54:57 <wibbit> and x pounds
Apr 25 20:55:32 <loufoque> that's theft
Apr 25 20:55:51 <roh> well.. it must differ since euro-prices are required to include _all_ taxes by law inside the eu
Apr 25 20:56:16 <roh> $prices in the us do not. they mostly include no taxes at all
Apr 25 20:56:54 <roh> then you also have the difference between sales tax and vat system and depending on from where, to where the one or other tax or feeĀ
Apr 25 20:59:29 <roh> ah.. well.. and you have to adhere to weee and gurantee regulations for everything you import into EU and especially when its sold/resold ... so yeah.. people can spare money when they import themselves (in huge amounts since single pieces do eat up the bargain in shipping costs) have no defects and do not re-sell
Apr 25 21:27:52 <kdean06> mwester, That kernel ready yet? :D
Apr 25 21:28:07 <mwester> The build is failing on xserver-kdrive. :(
Apr 25 21:28:24 <mwester> I can put the kernel up, but I have no means to test it with a standard image.
Apr 25 21:32:15 <kdean06> mwester, What's that mean? I'm confused.
Apr 25 21:33:41 <kdean06> Would the kernel work with rootfs from the buildhost?
Apr 25 21:42:27 <mwester> kdean06:  I don't know if it would work; I suppose one could try.   I was hoping to sync up, and build anew from the latest sources and test before I sent anything out.  But HEAD is broken again.
Apr 25 21:45:45 <kdean06> Please post the kernel then, I'll go ahead and see. :)
Apr 25 21:46:39 <SpeedEvil> roh: WRT WEEE - I'll dispose of any surplus freerunners for FIC.
Apr 25 21:47:12 <doc|fail> me too, but only within the next month :D
Apr 25 21:47:14 <SpeedEvil> mwester: is this a kernel with the resume patches you're trying to getg released?
Apr 25 21:48:57 <doc|fail> <- in vancouver
Apr 25 21:49:01 <doc|fail> er, wrong chan
Apr 25 21:49:08 <mwester> Rather the opposite - this one has resume patches that make it work -- but don't want to release them lest I end up being hunted by vicious hit-penguins for publishing crimes against Linux.    I'm looking for folks to confirm/deny that this fixes it, then I need feedback on better solutions.
Apr 25 21:49:17 <SpeedEvil> ah
Apr 25 21:49:43 * SpeedEvil can test stuff.
Apr 25 21:50:01 <mwester> http://moko.mwester.net/    <-- :)
Apr 25 21:50:36 <mwester> It may not resume at all, possibly...  but it works with an older jffs2 image for me.
Apr 25 21:51:47 <SpeedEvil> k
Apr 25 21:54:01 <kdean06> I'll test it and give some feedback.
Apr 25 21:55:37 <mwester> excellent.  Most of that stuff in the patchset is debug tool code, but buried in there are some real changes as well.  If it doesn't work, I'd like to try some of the debug switches to find out why it doesn't work for you.  Just be careful with what you might copy and paste; the logs may contain your IMEI and other info.
Apr 25 21:56:11 <SpeedEvil> Probably not till I get up in the morning.
Apr 25 21:56:23 <SpeedEvil> I'd have to get out of bed and reboot the phone.
Apr 25 21:56:26 <SpeedEvil> I turned it off.
Apr 25 23:07:23 <ScaredyCat> mwester: ping
Apr 25 23:10:15 * ScaredyCat slaps mwester
Apr 25 23:10:20 <ScaredyCat> it works!
Apr 25 23:12:24 <mwester> From mars.interplanetary.net (394.123.11.1) icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable
Apr 25 23:12:34 <mwester> er, pong?
Apr 25 23:13:04 <mwester> it works, as in it awakens from suspend from a call or SMS more than once?
Apr 25 23:13:28 <ScaredyCat> it wakes from suspend
Apr 25 23:13:47 <rtm> Wow! a fully functional suspend?   That's big news.
Apr 25 23:14:03 <ScaredyCat> calls work 
Apr 25 23:14:07 <ScaredyCat> audio is ok
Apr 25 23:14:15 <ScaredyCat> dialer dies after each call
Apr 25 23:14:33 <mjr> well the dialer is flaky anyway ;]
Apr 25 23:14:37 <ScaredyCat> but I need to check to see if that's what happens normally
Apr 25 23:14:57 <ScaredyCat> 3x suspend + 3 calls  so far..
Apr 25 23:14:59 <mwester> :)  I'm just working on the serail port overrun problem on resume; the dialer is just one of many user-space suspend/resume problems.
Apr 25 23:15:24 <mwester> ScaredyCat:  cool.  that's three neos now that exhibit the same response post and pre hack.
Apr 25 23:15:52 <ScaredyCat> I haven't rung the neo when it's suspended to see what happens there
Apr 25 23:15:56 <mwester> (the kernel has the FIFO almost turned off, just to model a worst-case scenario WRT to the timing)
Apr 25 23:16:24 <mwester> Oh, all you have to do is wrap it up while it's suspended -- an incoming change in signal quality will wake it.
Apr 25 23:16:42 <ScaredyCat> lol
Apr 25 23:16:56 <mwester> (but an incoming SMS or call will send more data, and is more likely to cause it to fail if its not working just right)
Apr 25 23:17:03 <ScaredyCat> well, that's gotta be better than starting to ring and then hanning up on the caller
Apr 25 23:17:14 <mwester> :( I ran one of my prepaid sims out of funds several times in the past week alone. :(
Apr 25 23:17:31 <ScaredyCat> well, I'm roaming too!
Apr 25 23:17:37 <mwester> Oh, ouch!
Apr 25 23:18:18 <mwester> If anyone knows how to arrange for a diagnostic message to be sent by the GSM to the host at some prearranged time in the future, that would make debugging much cheaper...
Apr 25 23:20:25 <ScaredyCat> it might seem odd... but is there a way to not make the screen bright white when it comes back?
Apr 25 23:21:29 <mwester> The entire management of the display during suspend/resume needs to be revisited -- it does it like a laptop, and it makes for a lot of flashing and flickering effects as it suspends and resumes.
Apr 25 23:21:56 <mwester> The audio also "clicks" when suspending/resuming.
Apr 25 23:22:21 <mwester> Plus it's waaaay slow; we need to defer the resume of a lot of the hardware.
Apr 25 23:22:29 <ScaredyCat> yeah, but that's useful :) that's ow I knowit's gone into suspend
Apr 25 23:22:32 <mwester> For example, why resume the USB just to answer the phone?
Apr 25 23:22:54 <ScaredyCat> (the click)
Apr 25 23:23:18 <ScaredyCat> it this kernel supposed to be generating logs /
Apr 25 23:23:18 <ScaredyCat> ?
Apr 25 23:23:27 <mwester> Iagree about the click -- when I wrap up the Neo to wake it up, that's how I know it just resumed. :)
Apr 25 23:25:10 <mwester> Logs?  try "cat /sys/devices/platform/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/nspy_buffer" (repeatedly, the internal buffer is large, and the /sys filesystem can only show a small amount at a time until the internal buffer is empty.)
Apr 25 23:25:34 <ScaredyCat> I'd use this kernel just to ditch the frking mmc debug crap
Apr 25 23:26:09 <mwester> Yeah, you can actually get useful info from dmesg without the mmc stuff.
Apr 25 23:26:20 <ScaredyCat> I get nothing on the cat
Apr 25 23:26:49 <mwester> Very odd.
Apr 25 23:26:52 * ewon does the compile-you-dirty-bastard shuffle
Apr 25 23:29:01 <mwester> I get this: http://www.pastebin.ca/997909
Apr 25 23:31:04 <ScaredyCat> that seems useful
Apr 25 23:31:21 <ScaredyCat> root@om-gta01:~# cat /sys/devices/platform/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/nspy_buffer
Apr 25 23:31:21 <ScaredyCat> root@om-gta01:~#                        
Apr 25 23:31:59 <mwester> Something is broken :(
Apr 25 23:35:04 <ScaredyCat> right -  I must sleep... early start tomorrow..
Apr 25 23:36:22 <mwester> Sorry, my mistake.  I some magic on my rootfs that you don't.
Apr 25 23:36:29 <ScaredyCat> lol
Apr 25 23:36:47 <mwester> Try this: echo "1" >/sys/devices/platform/neo1973-pm-gsm.0/nspy_enable
Apr 25 23:36:59 <ScaredyCat> I did...
Apr 25 23:37:01 <mwester> (I have that in my /etc/init.d/gsmd file)
Apr 25 23:37:43 <ScaredyCat> I'll have a better look tomorrow... muse leep now..
Apr 25 23:37:47 <mwester> Ok.
Apr 26 00:09:31 <SpeedEvil> Can I run n800 binaries?
Apr 26 00:09:33 <SpeedEvil> On the neo
Apr 26 00:09:59 <SpeedEvil> without qemu or silliness.
Apr 26 00:12:10 <balrog-kun> good you put the "or" there :)
Apr 26 00:12:59 <balrog-kun> well, recent n800 images use both armv5 and armv6 and thumb afaik
Apr 26 01:06:36 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03roh * r4399 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/scripts/README:
Apr 26 01:25:44 <CIA-42> openmoko: 03alphaone * r4400 10/developers/alphaone/u-blox/ (ubx-config.rb ubx-get.rb ubx-set.rb): 
Apr 26 01:25:44 <CIA-42> openmoko: * Two tools now, ubx-get and ubx-set which will save/load almanac and ephemeris
Apr 26 01:25:44 <CIA-42> openmoko: data to/from a file
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 26 02:59:57 2008