**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 04 02:59:57 2008 May 04 03:41:34 hi all May 04 06:03:23 Here's an odd, but nice thing I found: There is more traffic to openmoko.org than to www.openhandsetalliance.com, the main Android site. May 04 06:08:45 lol May 04 06:11:36 yay May 04 06:15:35 rtm traffic? May 04 06:16:33 roh: Yes, as reported by www.alexa.com. May 04 06:17:41 That site allows you to compare the number of visitors, page views etc. that web sites have, as a function of time. May 04 06:18:37 well.. i still would want to know where they take this data. May 04 06:18:50 ive not seen them having an account there ;) May 04 06:19:26 so its total guesswork what they are selling people there. snakeoil May 04 06:22:10 but brenda put some stats into a mail recently May 04 06:22:37 about 20-25000 hits a week on the wiki alone May 04 06:23:00 "Weekly Wiki Page Views" on community@ May 04 06:26:02 roh: I have no idea where that site gets its data either, but some of the trends they show at least make sense. They show traffic to Treo sites slowly going down, Blackberry sites baslically constant, etc. May 04 06:29:13 I had not seen Brenda's stats, though. Those are encouraging numbers. May 04 06:32:59 need to reboot that machine now.. mompls May 04 06:41:11 ha.. finally... May 04 06:41:16 only one sarge left May 04 06:43:28 but not today May 04 07:09:18 Interesting - u-boot commit de109d909707e2dfe806be5efc3cdb103b47c8ad (first change after 1.3.3-rc2) bricks my gta01bv4. Nothing written to the serial console on power-up. May 04 07:44:14 rtm: alexa gets it stats from people with the alexa toolbars _usually_ May 04 07:44:36 rtm: the toolbar actualy used to be classed as spyware May 04 07:44:57 patoh: Oh, I had no idea what their counting mechanism was. May 04 07:45:25 "The traffic data are based on the set of toolbars that use Alexa data, which may not be a representative sample of the global Internet population. To the extent that our sample of users differs from the set of all Internet users, our traffic estimates may over- or under-estimate the actual traffic to any particular site." May 04 07:45:30 http://www.alexa.com/site/help/traffic_learn_more May 04 07:45:41 look at bottom of page to sift through their crap May 04 07:46:25 its ok with the top 10 website on the internet usually, but that is about all its good for May 04 07:46:56 as roh said before, snakeoil May 04 07:47:09 *sigh* .. welll the wiki stats are done with google stuff, so they work only with javascript on ;) May 04 07:47:37 kinda snakeoil also when a big part of your community propably is surfing with noscript and adblock May 04 07:48:00 but tendencies are tendencies.. thats propably right May 04 07:51:28 I find web server logs are the only valid source of stats May 04 07:51:41 sure you don't get funky things like screen res, but they can be an addon May 04 07:52:52 Can anyone tell me why the hardware discussion list contains numerous postings about the GTA04, but none (that I've seen) about the GTA03? Won't there be a GTA03? May 04 07:53:32 GTA01 is the current dev phone isn't it? May 04 07:54:01 As I understand it, GTA01 is the neo1973, GTA02 is the Freerunner. May 04 07:54:51 There is discussion about what chips to use in the GTA04, but not the GTA03... May 04 07:55:12 gta03 got lost.. May 04 07:57:14 well.. names are just strings. whats in it counts May 04 07:57:38 who knows what marketing does think is a good name when its released? May 04 07:58:02 roh: I agree - I just wondered if there was an '03 that whose hardware was already frozen. May 04 07:58:08 gta0x are engineer designations. which will stay again May 04 07:58:11 rtm nope May 04 07:58:50 rtm atleast i dont know anything about it and i'm root ;) May 04 07:59:07 roh: That's good enough for me. May 04 07:59:30 well.. i got my work done for today.. got a few wigglylines and are happy.. n8 guys May 04 07:59:52 roh: Thanks for your responses to my queries. May 04 07:59:54 night May 04 08:00:03 I am going out for an early dinner May 04 08:00:12 btw.. munin is cool.. if it just weren't perl.. May 04 09:14:13 can the gta01v3 debug board be used with the Neo FreeRunner? May 04 09:22:41 mb May 04 09:22:51 mbuf: use May 04 09:22:58 SpeedEvil, ok May 04 09:23:00 s/use/yes/ May 04 09:23:00 SpeedEvil meant: mbuf: yes May 04 09:23:18 SpeedEvil, time for coffee? May 04 09:23:33 Time for picking up the laptop properly. May 04 09:31:06 Will the phone be released by this Christmas? May 04 09:37:09 Daemonax, it is already available May 04 09:37:49 Oh, why does the topic say it'll be released sometime? May 04 09:37:58 Daemonax, you can order now, trisoft.de May 04 09:38:45 I'm in China, so I was hoping I might be able to source it from a closer place, aren't they produced in Taiwan? May 04 09:40:15 Daemonax, both, I would assume May 04 09:42:37 Ah... Hmm, wonder if I can find someone to get me one here, can't speak the language.... Hmm May 04 09:43:10 Daemonax, why don't you ask in openmoko-community list? May 04 09:43:22 Will do later. May 04 12:08:13 anyone really familiar with the Calypso? May 04 12:08:21 or similar modems and their behaviour? May 04 12:08:32 we have an interesting problem w/ sleep mode here May 04 12:09:56 nfi May 04 12:10:03 all at commandset moof to me May 04 12:10:23 last i looked at at commands was in he bad old days in 1996/1997. May 04 12:10:27 when i still had a modem... May 04 12:11:06 well May 04 12:11:14 AT is moof, but at least a known entity May 04 12:11:27 whereas sleep modes are really stranges May 04 12:11:48 dont know anything about them May 04 12:16:05 mickeyl: I've dealt with sleeping serial things - I don't know what you might be having in hte way of problems. May 04 12:16:34 ok, perhaps anyone can help here: it's like that: May 04 12:16:47 moko3 firmware and later versions know a deep sleep mode May 04 12:16:59 in this mode, the modem falls after (roughly) 7 seconds after the last command May 04 12:17:14 subsequent chars will be ignored until you send \r\n to wake it up again May 04 12:17:34 gsmd had this workaround in that it always sends \r\n before a command May 04 12:17:45 so that it always will be woken up May 04 12:17:47 which can lead to other problems May 04 12:17:56 sure, no doubt about that May 04 12:17:58 anyways May 04 12:18:04 now i can understand this behaviour on AT mode May 04 12:18:05 if the modem does not sleep it reponse with an okay May 04 12:18:29 what puzzles me is that I know see this behaviour on every(!) channel even in MUXer mode, although this mode has its own power management commands May 04 12:18:39 which is a real pain in the ass May 04 12:19:25 what me even puzzles more is that i don't see that behavior at all May 04 12:19:29 So you mean you need to send \r\n to wake it up - then \r\n on the virtual lines to virtually wake thouse? May 04 12:19:41 emdete: do you have the same fw as mickeyl ? May 04 12:19:44 it makes no sense at all to sleep on ine channel May 04 12:20:03 SpeedEvil: other way around :D mickeyl has one neo with the same fw as i have May 04 12:20:11 Ah. May 04 12:20:12 well May 04 12:20:16 i have moko9b1 now May 04 12:20:26 but it was the same on moko4 and moko7 May 04 12:20:37 It would make some sense if there were multiple physical subunits. May 04 12:21:06 But as I understand it, there is solely the RF-baseband CPU, and the 'talk to teh world' CPU May 04 12:21:12 yep May 04 12:21:25 And it's only the second that gets shut down, with the first queing events to it. May 04 12:22:06 I vote someone writes an open-source GSM stack for the calypso. May 04 12:22:11 * SpeedEvil looks around for someone. May 04 12:22:14 heh May 04 12:22:16 yes May 04 12:22:25 puts us back a couple of years May 04 12:22:27 but well May 04 12:22:30 we waited so long... May 04 12:22:36 Probably not a good plan. May 04 12:22:59 well, if we want OM to have at least a tiny bit of success, then we better finish our framework soon May 04 12:23:02 *shrug* May 04 12:23:07 anyways, i guess i need to ask the .tw guys May 04 12:25:50 Sorry - seems a very firmware specific thing. You've eliminated bugs in your own code I suppose? May 04 12:26:19 yes May 04 12:26:25 except the MUXer, there's no own code involved May 04 12:26:28 Might be an idea to roll mwesters bug into this. May 04 12:26:30 i'm talking raw AT May 04 12:26:38 and can demostrate that using a terminal May 04 12:27:08 What's the problem with having to send \r\n on each virtual cnanel? May 04 12:27:18 Is it simply that it's not to spec? May 04 12:28:27 the problem is it depends on the sleeping state whether you will receive an OK or not May 04 12:28:44 if you do \r\n and the modem is alive, it sends OK May 04 12:28:57 if you do \r\n and the modem is sleeping, it swallows the response, but wakes up May 04 12:29:06 which is pretty confusing for the state machine / parser May 04 12:29:28 and since you have no chance to tell whether the channel is alive or not, you can't query that May 04 12:29:45 besides, the major nuisance being that it does not make sense at all May 04 12:30:01 control channel has its own PSC May 04 12:31:15 The only (wacky) reason I can think of is that someone specified it sloppily, and that's how it's been implemented. May 04 12:31:40 Good luck. May 04 12:32:14 phew May 04 13:02:02 * * OM Bug 1380 has been created by mickey(AT)openmoko.org May 04 13:02:03 * * GSM modem sleeps on virtual channels in MUX May 04 13:02:04 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1380 May 04 18:30:24 hu May 04 18:53:12 hi, tried getting stuff out of gsdm today, the wiki says that it shall receive an update after a while, does it receive it from internet or somewhere else? May 04 18:57:30 berkus: ? May 04 19:58:11 ScaredyCat: ping May 04 20:04:08 is there a key combo for screen calibration? lets say... angstrom? May 04 20:04:22 xtscal? May 04 20:05:34 ts_calibrate works, too May 04 20:05:38 yea why not. one littel question, where can i down load OMhers images? or dont they exist as such? really, you merely find ot May 04 20:05:41 hers May 04 20:05:50 OM May 04 20:06:16 broedje: What "other" OM images? May 04 20:06:30 (unless I misunderstand the question...) May 04 20:07:23 well, Angstrom and GPE have some OM packages in the ipkg repo. but don't you OM's have one too? May 04 20:08:34 Erm... huh? May 04 20:08:46 i'm not kidding, i am interested in this since lets say one Month, and i at least didnt find it by accident May 04 20:09:03 Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to do May 04 20:09:49 home? bugzilla? planet? Projects? lists? No "download"? May 04 20:10:03 i want to flash the latest image, or so May 04 20:10:06 such May 04 20:10:52 ah May 04 20:11:08 but i see now there is "applications" qtopiaonx11 May 04 20:11:21 You can use http://buildhost.openmoko.org or http://buildhost.automated.it for example May 04 20:11:35 isnt qtopia ... not open? May 04 20:11:46 It is now May 04 20:12:34 and what has it to do with OM, i thought QT is ... green, and OM e.G Dialer looks somehow red May 04 20:12:50 :-P i feel bit dumb May 04 20:13:08 well thanx anyhow May 04 20:13:32 Well, Openmoko and Qtopia don't have too much in common May 04 20:13:44 i need a crosscompiler i think.... May 04 20:13:54 broedje: Do you want to write software for OM? May 04 20:14:09 yea that is what i think... like angstrom and also gpe... different May 04 20:14:20 porting at first May 04 20:14:28 Openmoko is actually based on Angstrom May 04 20:14:40 then i hope to write stuff May 04 20:14:56 okay May 04 20:14:59 but there will be a noticeable interval between hahaha May 04 20:15:17 When you start writing stuff, remember to use the SDK (aka toolchain) May 04 20:15:39 IDE? May 04 20:16:00 well... sorry.... i May 04 20:16:48 er ... take a Strongarm PXE &%$/&% and find stuff on .... Openezx? totally wrong eh? May 04 20:17:39 what was a SDK ... is not necessarily graphical right? May 04 20:18:29 i'll look it up, i remember it May 04 20:20:33 i didnt get you , surely i will not use Eclipse to compile stuff, or chase it through the SNOW toolchain of sgendacomputing. i hope you have something more appropriate in the drawers for guys like me May 04 20:21:38 i will use "the" SDK :D May 04 20:21:39 I meant SDK as in "Software Development Kit" - in the context of Openmoko a complete cross-compile environment that lets you get to work right away May 04 20:22:14 Eclipse has nothing to do with it, unless you *want* to use Eclipse May 04 20:22:17 the OM context SDK i love you May 04 20:22:44 hihihihihihi May 04 20:23:28 hit me May 04 22:04:12 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r6297a5e1176a 10/ophoned/ (modem.py objects.py ophoned): python-ophoned: first call working in asynchronous way May 04 22:17:18 Could gsmd be easily ported to for use on a normal PC? May 05 00:36:48 hello channel May 05 00:42:46 i know there isn't any new info, but does anyone have a release prediction? May 05 00:43:44 Beware the aides of march! May 05 00:44:51 Total and complete silence from all involved. May 05 00:45:19 i don't expect celestial horns :-) May 05 00:45:21 I'll bite - I'm betting the release is exactly one year after the release of the neo1973. May 05 00:45:33 i'm just waiting (trying to be patient) like everybody else May 05 00:45:48 rtm, hasn't that already past? May 05 00:45:59 I don't think so. May 05 00:46:12 But I may be wrong. May 05 00:47:45 i'm surprised there isn't any other more substatial info lately. monitoring a couple feeds seem to be mostly musings May 05 00:49:31 Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if anyone has realized that now that the GTA02 is about to be released, we still have no software to make a phone out of it! May 05 00:50:03 Ssssh! May 05 00:50:21 niklauz: According to slashdot, the neo1973 went on sale Jul 8, 2007. That roughly matched my memory too. May 05 00:50:45 So we have a couple of months, then. May 05 00:50:48 mwester: i think i follow you thinking. i would have expected some framework whitepapers, or maybe an sdk-type thing May 05 00:51:23 where do i get a open-phone in Mexico May 05 00:51:34 ? May 05 00:51:36 I think the Qtopia stuff will be the software that will make it a phone, first. Which is rather interesting... May 05 00:51:55 rtm: ah i see, thats interesting May 05 00:52:24 But even with Qtopia, there are several large holes remaining between the software stack and the OS -- suspend/resume, specifically. May 05 00:52:54 mwester: oh u meant to make phone calls? i thought that already existed, i've seem dial test, and a gui dialer May 05 00:53:19 I guess I'm puzzled that nobody has really been working to plug those holes, or even seems unduly interested in the work of those in the community who might be trying to plug those holes. May 05 00:53:56 mwester-trip: I've said before that there is massive assumption that 'there must be people at OM doing this'. May 05 00:54:05 (I think). May 05 00:54:24 niklauz: Rudimentary functionality exists, but it is buggy, slow, and built on a framework that has been publicly declared obsolete and dead (gsmd) May 05 00:54:36 * niklauz cringe May 05 00:54:38 And if you're not told that they're not, and as there has been a history of code appearing from the sky, why would you work on it? May 05 00:54:44 didn't know that May 05 00:55:13 i can only hope they are secretive to maximize the 'wow' effecto f a new release May 05 00:55:24 SpeedEvil: I fear you may be correct. May 05 00:55:24 Which is fucking insane. May 05 00:55:32 Absolutely insane. May 05 00:55:56 Unless they have an iphone class software - and I extremely doubt they do - they are relying on the community. May 05 00:56:14 They don't have iPhone class hardware. May 05 00:56:19 And making the community less likely to do stuff for you... May 05 00:56:34 rtp: the hardware could in some ways compete with the iphone. May 05 00:56:45 The only strong community effort of which I am aware is the dbus-based software stack being developed to replace gsmd, but that is still in the specification stages, no? May 05 00:57:03 If sufficient investment or time was pushed into doing so. May 05 00:57:36 * mwester thinks it's better to compare the device to the Nokia N800 than an iPhone May 05 00:57:59 By iphone-like, I mean so that someone can pick it up and say 'wow'. May 05 00:58:43 SpeedEvil: Hasn't the glamo fiasco pretty much ruled that out? May 05 00:58:44 Personally I expect the release to be around the end of the month, with little consumer oriented fanfare. May 05 00:59:01 rtp: it's ruled out it being nice and easy to use. May 05 00:59:21 rtm: You can still do nice slide/wipe effects and such. May 05 00:59:39 * mwester feels badly for raster; to end up working with such a crippled hardware design must be very frustrating. May 05 01:00:47 Based on my impression of what rasters been saying - you can do a lot if you dropped down into 320*240 mode when you need fast-moving glitz. May 05 01:01:25 To me, the most puzzling thing is why they could not make the Freerunner quad-band. May 05 01:01:34 anyway, bbiab. Or maybe not, maybe I'll just go code a real-time interrupt handler to make the GSM work correctly (!) (crappy design for a GSM) May 05 01:01:34 But again - this would all be predicated on a large blob of shiny dropping from the sky - something that is unlikely IMO. May 05 01:01:51 rtm: history May 05 01:02:39 rtm: As I understand it, first GTA02 hardware was already out when it was discovered GTA01 is triband. May 05 01:03:03 SpeedEvil: But.. but.. but... they did several board revs after that, I think. May 05 01:03:13 rtm: yeah - it wasn't noticed. May 05 01:03:27 That's a big thing not to notice. May 05 01:03:29 rtm: and it's a fairly major change. May 05 01:04:12 rtm: Sure - but this is very much a low-budget effort - there isn't the 'normal' testing of every aspect of a phone or huge design team. May 05 01:04:58 And as I understand it - none of the testing happened in a 850MHz only area, so it wasn't found straight away. May 05 01:05:15 Well, I sure wish them well. I've had lots of fun with my GTA01. May 05 01:05:37 I suspect that a big part of the decision not to make it quadband was the hope that they might be a couple of revs only away from a workable phone. May 05 01:05:57 And going quadband might likely push that out another couple. May 05 01:06:37 And have added another couple of months on the availability date. May 05 01:07:06 there is alot about this effort that seems contradictory/confusing May 05 01:07:18 Doing significant changes on a board that 'almost works' is scary. May 05 01:07:37 As you can way too easily get to a board that doesn't. May 05 01:08:04 for example there is a lot of infrastructure for organizing and delivering information, but it's rarely used for substational official info/coordiation, but mostly people on the outside looking in May 05 01:08:55 I suspect the initial hope was that office policy was going to be different. May 05 01:09:11 so desperate for info that it becomes cluttered with rumors and unanswered questions May 05 01:09:14 And they are in fact hamstrung by policies handed down by FIC. May 05 01:10:11 i wish them much success. i'm just frustrated because I delayed replacing my phone based on the original release schedule May 05 01:10:38 i'm not sure if i should get a new smart phone and check back in 18 months or wait May 05 01:10:48 At the moment - the software is basically functional - most of the time - for basic SMS and calls. May 05 01:11:05 I haven't investigated the PIM - 'today' and friends. May 05 01:11:40 My '01 is a functional phone, but I don't talk a lot, and I don't mind recharging daily. May 05 01:11:43 are you speaking of the gta01? May 05 01:11:58 niklauz: GTA01, and likely state of GTA02 on launch May 05 01:12:14 how's the battery life? gta01 doesn't have wifi right? May 05 01:12:33 20h++ in suspend, and no. May 05 01:13:18 niklauz: That's right. No wifi. I like in the US, but the no 850 hasn't bitten me. I always get coverage in the Boston area. May 05 01:14:29 rtm, i'm in the US too, im not super worried about the 850 band issue either, it's mostly middle state rural areas no? I live in baltimore May 05 01:15:43 niklauz: I think you're right. In any event, the '02 will come in a version with both US bands, but only one non-US band. May 05 01:16:54 rtm: has it been stated which non-US? May 05 01:17:05 Or can you pick :) May 05 01:17:18 I think they drop 900 and add 850. May 05 02:16:13 later all **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 05 02:59:57 2008