**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 06 02:59:57 2008
May 06 03:48:46 <roh> hm.. the dns hassle should be over. all dns i can see are in sync
May 06 03:49:18 <raster> bing
May 06 03:52:56 <sagacis> Looks good from here
May 06 04:00:03 <sagacis> Hey, we missed it: The Linux Foundation Spring 2008 Collaboration Summit April 8-10, 2008 | University of Texas Commons Center, Austin, TX | Sean is invited as one of the speakers
May 06 04:00:39 <sagacis> oops, wrong window...
May 06 04:59:22 <trod__> where can I get archives for this channel?
May 06 05:00:17 <summatusmentis> !logs
May 06 05:00:17 <cdbot2> Channel logs for #openmoko are archived at:
May 06 05:00:18 <cdbot2> http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/%23openmoko
May 06 05:00:19 <cdbot2> Live-logs are available at
May 06 05:00:21 <cdbot2> http://hentges.net/tmp/logs/irc/livelogs/%23openmoko.livelog
May 06 05:00:23 <cdbot2> See ?? help-logs for usage instructions
May 06 05:00:34 <trod__> summatusmentis: thanks
May 06 05:02:31 <summatusmentis> sure thing trod__ 
May 06 05:48:54 <Outlander> hi, the new netrunner will be GSM only from what I can see
May 06 05:49:09 <Outlander> so that means GPRS data access to the internet when wifi isn't available...
May 06 05:49:42 <Outlander> any plans for a 3G capable component or 3G version of the netrunner? I'm not sure what's involved with providing 3G capability
May 06 05:53:54 <doc|home> Outlander: freerunner, and not that we know of
May 06 05:54:18 <doc|home> although openmoko themselves would know of course,but they're not likely to say anything just yet, which makes sense
May 06 05:58:08 <Outlander> ok cool 
May 06 05:58:29 <Outlander> i really like what the phone has and am planning to get one but GPRS in australia is really slow and unreliable
May 06 05:58:46 <Outlander> we're using 3g for data now which is fast,etc
May 06 07:07:12 <Hopscotch> good morning
May 06 07:13:43 <Outlander> hi
May 06 07:13:49 <Outlander> so freerunner will have usb1.1 only? not usb2?
May 06 07:18:35 <rtm> Outlander: Yes. USB 1.1
May 06 07:44:55 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03hepaajan * r296 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/vendor/ (7 files): Added TI calypso Neo1973 vendor
May 06 08:30:13 <woglinde> have anyone seen this rightnow? -> http://www.fluffyspider.com/demos/live_videos/flv/fancypants-openmoko-neo1973-video-browser-phone-dialer.html
May 06 08:34:38 <raster> woglinde:  yes.
May 06 08:34:48 <raster> video is a bit of a hack
May 06 08:34:58 <raster> it bypasses the rendering pipeline and writes direct to the frameubffer
May 06 08:35:17 <woglinde> raster ah hm the microkernel is intressting
May 06 08:35:27 <raster> but it is cool
May 06 08:35:31 <raster> yes
May 06 08:35:33 <raster> its l4
May 06 08:36:06 <woglinde> yes
May 06 08:36:36 <raster> l4 or not doesnt make a difference there
May 06 08:49:08 <cyrilRomain> nice video !
May 06 08:49:19 <cyrilRomain> BTW, do you know where can I find the bitbake files to build OKL4 microkernel ?
May 06 09:01:13 <woglinde>  sorry  I didnt see the skip registry http://wiki.ok-labs.com/#downloads
May 06 09:01:28 <woglinde> I talked in the wrong channel
May 06 09:01:33 <woglinde> source code is included
May 06 09:01:40 <woglinde> supports moko and gumstix
May 06 09:01:47 <woglinde> err neo
May 06 09:02:26 <cyrilRomain> great !
May 06 09:02:38 <woglinde> hm and  KZM - a i.MX31 SoC with an ARMv6 based ARM1136 CPU core
May 06 09:04:20 <woglinde> seems not all is bad which cames from downunder
May 06 09:05:16 <woglinde> hm maybee I will put in oe
May 06 09:05:33 <woglinde> but later have other projects for next time
May 06 09:06:01 <cyrilRomain> woglinde: excellent!
May 06 09:07:10 <woglinde> first disko and morphinetv
May 06 09:07:31 <cyrilRomain> woglinde: maybe can you be helped by gumstix people to include it
May 06 09:08:42 <woglinde> hm?
May 06 09:08:47 <woglinde> its a time problem
May 06 09:10:49 <cyrilRomain> woglinde: indeed :-/
May 06 09:43:29 <SpeedEvil> #edev too woglinde 
May 06 09:46:21 <emdete> raster: we talked about textblock scrolling several days ago. i didn't find out how. can you name same c functions where i can start to reserch? remember: i have a edje part type TEXTBLOCK with text longer than the screen and just want to know the height an set the offset
May 06 10:03:21 <Daedeloth2> ooh, there is a channel...
May 06 10:03:41 <Daedeloth2> so, openmoko version 2... when can I buy one? ;-)
May 06 10:07:33 <abraxa__> Daedeloth2: Mass production is said to begin in one week
May 06 10:07:48 * XorA presses the Make it So button
May 06 10:08:07 <SpeedEvil> Mass production is said to begin in one week - if production test works out.
May 06 10:08:11 <SpeedEvil> AIUI.
May 06 10:09:00 <Daedeloth2> *hooray*
May 06 10:09:37 <Daedeloth2> Any idea about the european price? Or do we just pay the USA price? 
May 06 10:10:35 <emdete> Daedeloth2: about 350EUR (incl vat in germany)
May 06 10:10:48 <Daedeloth2> ... why do we have to pay 100 euro more?!
May 06 10:11:12 <woglinde> ask the market law
May 06 10:11:22 <emdete> tax, transport, warrenty
May 06 10:11:48 <Daedeloth2> ... okay
May 06 10:12:07 <Daedeloth2> I'll just use an american friend then... damnit
May 06 10:12:28 <emdete> Daedeloth2: see http://www.trisoft.de/openmoko.htm - you have 2 years warenty 
May 06 10:12:55 <emdete> Daedeloth2: depends on how to calc using that way me be more expensive... 
May 06 10:13:53 <SpeedEvil> emdete: in addition to your normal distance selling regulations rights.
May 06 10:13:55 <woglinde> Daedeloth2 but you have to sneak trough the federal toll
May 06 10:14:14 <woglinde> for importing from us you have to pay taxes too
May 06 10:14:17 <Daedeloth2> the toll is about 20 euro's
May 06 10:14:24 <woglinde> nope
May 06 10:14:33 <woglinde> its fairly more
May 06 10:14:42 <SpeedEvil> It's VAT and import duty
May 06 10:14:57 <Daedeloth2> no, really, it was 10 euro's for a 100 euro order
May 06 10:15:02 <Daedeloth2> so that would make it 20 for 200 euro
May 06 10:15:44 <Daedeloth2> so that would make it 270 euro instead of 350
May 06 10:15:47 <emdete> raster: awake?
May 06 10:35:57 <SpeedEvil> Daedeloth2: where are you?
May 06 10:44:07 <Daedeloth2> SpeedEvil: Belgium
May 06 11:01:43 <ScaredyCat> boing
May 06 12:01:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03pikkive * r297 10/trunk/software/gsmd2/ (32 files in 5 dirs): 
May 06 12:01:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Began implementing changed fso api in tests,gsmd2 and libfreesmartphone.
May 06 12:01:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Changed that timeouts are initiated after command is sent.
May 06 12:10:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1381 has been created by thebohemian(AT)gmx.net
May 06 12:10:03 <cdbot2> * * clicking at touchscreen borders confuses libSDL's mouse cursor
May 06 12:10:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1381
May 06 12:59:13 <spyre> mickeyl: I've got a question relating to Call.Hold
May 06 12:59:20 <emdete> ras
May 06 12:59:25 <mickeyl> spyre: ok
May 06 12:59:36 <emdete> oups... sry
May 06 13:00:11 <spyre> mickeyl: telit's manual is a bit more informative than 0707..says that +chld can only put all calls on hold or all calls except one on hold
May 06 13:01:12 <spyre> mickeyl: so I just can't (afaik) put a call on hold, I'll have to activate one aswell
May 06 13:04:49 <spyre> mickeyl: or is there some other command to just put one call on hold?
May 06 13:05:17 <mickeyl> no, i guess that's bogus then
May 06 13:05:22 <mickeyl> ok, proposal:
May 06 13:05:27 <mickeyl> we rename Hold to HoldAll()
May 06 13:05:41 <mickeyl> and just do the necessary things internal, when the user calls Activate()
May 06 13:05:42 <mickeyl> ok?
May 06 13:06:28 * XorA wonders where all his DNS servers have gone to
May 06 13:06:35 <mickeyl> where have all the dns servers gone
May 06 13:06:38 <mickeyl> long time paaaaasing
May 06 13:06:43 <mickeyl> sorry
May 06 13:07:12 <XorA> its all fine except I cant make new internet connections
May 06 13:07:33 <spyre> mickeyl: agreed :)
May 06 13:07:50 <mickeyl> spyre: excellent. I'll do the changes now and commit
May 06 13:08:24 <spyre> mickeyl: actually..
May 06 13:08:35 <spyre> mickeyl: I didn't think that one through
May 06 13:08:56 <spyre> mickeyl: holdall still wouldn't be the right name since one call would always be activated
May 06 13:09:07 <mickeyl> why?
May 06 13:09:15 <mickeyl> if you say +chld can put all calls on hold
May 06 13:10:02 <spyre> 2 - places all active calls (if any exist) on hold and accepts the other (held or waiting) call.
May 06 13:10:20 <spyre> 2X - places all active calls on hold except call X with which communication shall be supported (only from version D).
May 06 13:10:42 <spyre> mickeyl: sorry I wasn't clear earlier on this
May 06 13:11:26 <spyre> mickeyl: it basically switches one or many calls from held to active and vice versa.
May 06 13:11:45 <mickeyl> aah
May 06 13:11:53 <mickeyl> ok, i see
May 06 13:12:01 <mickeyl> ok, then we actually remove Hold completely
May 06 13:12:20 <mickeyl> and just use this command internally depending on the actual state when someone calls Activate()
May 06 13:12:27 <mickeyl> right?
May 06 13:12:50 <spyre> mickeyl: It should have a parameter to indicate weither current call should be put on hold or added to conversation
May 06 13:13:05 <mickeyl> ah, that would be slick
May 06 13:13:13 <spyre> mickeyl: +chld imho is messed up :)
May 06 13:13:15 <mickeyl> hehe
May 06 13:13:17 <mickeyl> it is for sure
May 06 13:13:36 <mickeyl> you're right. Let's add a boolean parameter to Activate()
May 06 13:14:58 <spyre> I've got a feeling I've forgotten something, but I'll let you know once I'll figure out what it is :)
May 06 13:15:05 <mickeyl> hehe, ok, good
May 06 13:15:08 <mickeyl> thanks, btw.
May 06 13:15:15 <mickeyl> it's really good we have multiple API consumers 
May 06 13:17:23 <spyre> or any for that matter ;)
May 06 13:19:51 <Tigakatze> hallo
May 06 13:19:55 <spyre> mickeyl: on and should call status signal's status parameter also have "unknown" value?
May 06 13:21:21 <mickeyl> hmm
May 06 13:21:23 <mickeyl> i don't think so
May 06 13:21:41 <mickeyl> unknown really does not bring the client forward
May 06 13:21:55 <mickeyl> if it's unknown, we better don't send the signal in the first place :)
May 06 13:23:54 <mickeyl> ok, style question
May 06 13:24:04 <mickeyl> option 1:
May 06 13:24:33 <mickeyl> Activate( int, bool ), bool param specifies whether call will be added to conference or other calls will be put on hold
May 06 13:24:35 <mickeyl> option 2:
May 06 13:24:47 <mickeyl> Activate( int ), activates call, all other put on hold
May 06 13:24:58 <mickeyl> ActivateConference( int ), activates call to conference
May 06 13:25:07 <mickeyl> please vote now :)
May 06 13:25:21 <mickeyl> i think option 2 is easier to remember when using the API
May 06 13:25:27 <mickeyl> but adds another method
May 06 13:26:35 <spyre> mickeyl: how about when I send at+chup to gsm modem and gsm modem says "ERROR", what should be sent to dbus? :)
May 06 13:26:53 <spyre> mickeyl: I think they're both fine
May 06 13:26:56 <mickeyl> ok
May 06 13:27:02 <mickeyl> then i chose option 2
May 06 13:27:16 <mickeyl> (at+chup) if the modem says error, first try "H"
May 06 13:27:23 <mickeyl> if it stil errors, send a dbus error back
May 06 13:27:39 <mickeyl> still working on the error specs... sorry :)
May 06 13:29:12 <emdete> at+chup seems not supported by ti calypso...
May 06 13:31:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * re23876f54373 10/otapi/org.freesmartphone.GSM.Call.xml.in: 
May 06 13:31:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: otapi/org.freesmartphone.GSM.Call: improve call API
May 06 13:31:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: * remove Hold call, 07.07 can't explicitly hold one call
May 06 13:31:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: * add ReleaseHeld to release all held calls
May 06 13:31:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: * add ActivateConference to activate a call in addition to other previously active calls
May 06 13:33:48 <spyre> mickeyl: try "H"?
May 06 13:34:10 <mickeyl> ATH
May 06 13:35:10 <spyre> mickeyl: ah yeah, but basically I meant that what should be returned on error cases (so when ATH would also return ERROR)
May 06 13:35:52 <mickeyl> spyre: i think we will have a couple of different error specs
May 06 13:36:26 <mickeyl> we might want a generic ModemTimeout exception
May 06 13:36:35 <mickeyl> generic CME and CMS exceptions
May 06 13:37:27 <mickeyl> and high level exceptions depending on server state
May 06 13:37:45 <mickeyl> at least that would be my first idea. i don't know whether exporting CME and CMS over dbus is a good thing or not
May 06 13:39:27 <spyre> mickeyl: CME and CMS?
May 06 13:39:56 <mickeyl> yeah, the standard GSM CME and CMS errors
May 06 13:40:22 <mickeyl> there's a couple of hundreds
May 06 13:40:49 <spyre> mickeyl: wouldn't those be a bit overkill
May 06 13:40:59 <mickeyl> that's what i'm wondering
May 06 13:41:22 <mickeyl> it's an easy thing to report
May 06 13:41:35 <spyre> mickeyl: maybe just have some generic errors timeout, general, authentication and some string to give more details?
May 06 13:41:35 <mickeyl> but if we want to do higher level exceptions we need to take the server state into account
May 06 13:41:49 <spyre> ..to the user
May 06 13:42:33 <mickeyl> agreed. first we should try to identify classes
May 06 13:43:01 <mickeyl> let's slow this down by using e-mail
May 06 13:43:05 <mickeyl> i need to think about that. 
May 06 13:43:14 <mickeyl> if you have already ideas, could you come up with a proposal`
May 06 13:43:14 <mickeyl> ?
May 06 13:44:26 <spyre> mickeyl: I've got nothing concrete.. basically what was discussed in fso's email list is imho a good idea
May 06 13:44:54 <spyre> mickeyl: btw can you add gsmd2 to fso's git and give us write access ;)
May 06 13:54:02 <nezza-_-> anything new about massproduction etc?
May 06 13:54:15 <SpeedEvil> Starting in a few days, with luck.
May 06 13:57:16 <SpeedEvil> 9th to 16th IIRC.
May 06 13:57:19 <SpeedEvil> But who knows.
May 06 14:03:57 <mickeyl> spyre: repository added, see http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=gsmd2.git;a=summary
May 06 14:04:02 <mickeyl> spyre: you should be able to commit now
May 06 14:04:13 <XorA> mickeyl: is amethyst loaded to hell?
May 06 14:04:33 <mickeyl> top - 16:04:52 up 68 days, 30 min,  1 user,  load average: 0.50, 0.39, 0.41
May 06 14:04:37 <mickeyl> not at all
May 06 14:04:46 <XorA> hrmm, mtn doesnt seem to be talking
May 06 14:04:47 <spyre> mickeyl: thanks 
May 06 14:28:47 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * r38853e350338 10/ (16 files in 4 dirs): Import code
May 06 15:44:30 <emdete> raster: awake? i have still problems paging through text...
May 06 15:44:36 <raster> hey
May 06 15:44:40 <raster> hmmm
May 06 15:44:48 <emdete> seems e can't pagedown? :D
May 06 15:45:51 <spydon> what... the wiki works for me...
May 06 15:46:01 <emdete> setup right now is as follows: i use edje, python and have a part type textblock. i set text into it and just want two thinks: know the rendered heigth of teh text and set an offset to move around...
May 06 15:46:58 <emdete> raster: i played around with edje_object_part_drag_... but with no success, don't know if its related
May 06 15:47:15 <SpeedEvil> spyre: it had DNS problems earlier for sone.
May 06 15:47:29 <SpeedEvil> spy:
May 06 15:47:52 <spydon> ah ok
May 06 15:48:15 <raster> emdete:  cant pagedown?
May 06 15:48:32 <emdete> raster: it's for shure my fault. i just don't know how
May 06 15:48:34 <raster> hmm
May 06 15:48:39 <raster> no dragables are not what u want
May 06 15:49:22 <raster> well they can be used
May 06 15:49:30 <raster> but the problem here is the textblock size
May 06 15:49:36 <emdete> give me a sample - what are tyhey for?
May 06 15:49:42 <raster> and its inan edje
May 06 15:49:48 <raster> whihc needs to calculate min size
May 06 15:49:57 <raster> here is what u do
May 06 15:50:08 <raster> in the edj with the textblock add a swallow
May 06 15:50:17 <raster> make that just hesize of the obj
May 06 15:50:19 <raster> like th etext
May 06 15:50:31 <raster> now create an invisible rect
May 06 15:50:35 <raster> or anything really
May 06 15:50:45 <raster> set extern min size WIDTH to whatever widht u wqant
May 06 15:50:48 <raster> set height to 0
May 06 15:50:50 <raster> now swlalow
May 06 15:50:55 <raster> now calc min size of edje
May 06 15:51:10 <raster> this will constrain the edje and thus text to be a minimum size of the width of this obj
May 06 15:51:18 <raster> and thus height will expand based on line wrapping etc.
May 06 15:51:25 <raster> u can destroy this objectnow
May 06 15:51:27 <raster> dont need it
May 06 15:51:33 <raster> (the swallowed rect)
May 06 15:51:36 <raster> now i know the dimenstions
May 06 15:51:41 <raster> dimensions
May 06 15:51:48 <raster> i assume u set the text before this and loaded the edje etc.
May 06 15:51:50 <raster> :)
May 06 15:52:02 <raster> resize the edje object to this min size
May 06 15:52:10 <raster> u can now move this eobject up and down to scroll
May 06 15:52:14 <raster> simple
May 06 15:52:19 <emdete> pfew, will try that :D
May 06 15:52:49 <raster> hehehe
May 06 15:52:59 <raster> the trick is in condstrainign the edje in only 1 dimension for its min size calc
May 06 15:53:02 <raster> thats the swallow trick
May 06 15:55:32 <emdete> so in the edje i need 3 instead of the one (TEXTBLOCK-) part?
May 06 15:57:56 <raster> nah
May 06 15:57:58 <raster> 2 parts
May 06 15:57:59 <raster> 1 texblock
May 06 15:58:01 <raster> andaswallow
May 06 15:58:05 <emdete> ?
May 06 15:58:08 <emdete> so 4?
May 06 15:58:08 <raster> and a swallow
May 06 15:58:11 <raster> no
May 06 15:58:15 <raster> 2 parts:
May 06 15:58:18 <raster> 1 of type texblock
May 06 15:58:18 <emdete> 2 + 1 + 1 is 4...
May 06 15:58:24 <raster> 1 of type swallow
May 06 15:58:38 <emdete> you talked about an invisible rect
May 06 15:58:41 <raster> ys
May 06 15:58:45 <emdete> so 3
May 06 15:58:45 <raster> thats outside the edje
May 06 15:58:48 <raster> an evas object
May 06 15:58:51 <raster> u recte that in code
May 06 15:58:54 <emdete> ah... okay.
May 06 15:58:55 <raster> err
May 06 15:58:57 <raster> u create that in code
May 06 15:59:03 <raster> swallow it into the swallow part
May 06 15:59:09 <raster> before that set extern min sizae on it
May 06 15:59:11 <raster> ...
May 06 16:01:19 <SpeedEvil> Are there USB satellite modems?
May 06 16:18:04 <emdete> raster: you say: "make that just the size of the obj like the text" how do i do that? just the same attributes in the edje file?
May 06 16:32:35 <josch_> cb22, http://rabenfrost.net/openmoko/mokoelsa.png
May 06 16:32:38 <josch_> cb22, \o/
May 06 16:36:19 <Outlander> lol cb22, she's hot, who is she?
May 06 16:36:40 <CVirus> I want a shirt too
May 06 16:36:42 <josch> hehe
May 06 16:36:43 <Outlander> maybe that should be the front page image when the freerunner is made available...sell out in an hour ;)
May 06 16:37:36 <josch> Outlander, she's my girlfriend and i gave my community member of the week price to her
May 06 16:37:43 <Outlander> hehe awesome
May 06 16:39:08 <CVirus> how do you guys get to know sexy girls !
May 06 16:39:44 <XorA> chick alert :-)
May 06 16:39:52 <CVirus> hehe
May 06 16:40:00 <Outlander> that can be the openmoko advertisement! "how'd you meet her" "well i have one of this hip opensource phones. freedom is sooo IN right now"
May 06 16:40:07 <CVirus> if I'll ever have a gf ... I'll buy her an OM shirt too
May 06 16:40:21 <josch> well - i met here by installing ubuntu on her laptop :P
May 06 16:53:41 <cb22> josch: haha, but i thought the deal was _you_had to wear the camisole. and then post pic on 4chan :p
May 06 16:55:20 <josch> cb22, not even the guys on 4chan would like that :P
May 06 18:26:12 <cl0s> hey if anybody in here works on the case for openmoko i got a good idea for one
May 06 18:26:32 <cl0s> where would we submit ideas for that? it could be something a 3rd party could do, since they put out the cad files and all that
May 06 18:26:46 <SpeedEvil> 'something a third party could do' - sure.
May 06 18:27:02 <SpeedEvil> The problem is that to get a decent case mould is somewhere in the $10-30K range.
May 06 18:27:10 <cl0s> sheeshh
May 06 18:27:11 <cl0s> lol
May 06 18:27:37 <SpeedEvil> You can make it out of rapid prototype materials, or metals, but that then ends up either thicker, or heavier, or much more expensive per case.
May 06 18:27:41 <cl0s> if i knew anything about the hardware part id try to do it.. but pretty much i just would like to see one with a keyboard on it
May 06 18:27:58 <cl0s> that automatically connects into the usb, then i guess has a usb hub for extention..
May 06 18:28:02 <cl0s> extension*
May 06 18:28:02 <SpeedEvil> That's mechancally really, really hard unfortunately.
May 06 18:28:15 <SpeedEvil> The USB isn't designed for external use.
May 06 18:28:38 <SpeedEvil> Bluetooth credit card keyboard works.
May 06 18:29:24 <cl0s> thats the only 1 thing i would really like to see on GTA02, im used to my full querty keyboard :(
May 06 18:29:45 <cl0s> like on the device would be nice, but its def not a big enough problem to stop me from getting it when it comes out.. hah
May 06 18:31:55 <SpeedEvil> The cheap rapid prototype stuff - as I understand it - can be used - but will lead to a case of perhaps double the thickness.
May 06 18:32:06 <SpeedEvil> 5mm vs 2mm
May 06 18:32:38 <cl0s> yea the thickness would def be a problem, it would def add 2 or 3mm
May 06 18:33:01 <SpeedEvil> To get an equivalent stiffness that is.
May 06 18:33:25 <cl0s> yea cus these del keyboards are paper thin
May 06 18:33:30 <cl0s> *the film inside
May 06 18:34:26 <cl0s> going to play around with the cad files, i never messed with it before
May 06 19:01:47 <doc|work> ok, if anyone says the freerunner is ugly I'm going to show them the newest crackberry
May 06 19:01:53 <doc|work> http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/06/blackberry-9000-gets-a-very-early-review/
May 06 19:02:02 <doc|work> that thing is *massive*
May 06 19:02:13 <Qwell> 400x120 res?  heh
May 06 19:02:50 <summatusmentis> oh wow, it really is
May 06 19:03:20 <summatusmentis> have you seen the HTC touch diamond though? that looks sexy(outside of WMobile)
May 06 19:04:38 <doc|work> quiet damn it, blackberry = ugly, that's what we're to take from this conversation!
May 06 19:04:57 * doc|work googles "htc touch diamond" :o
May 06 19:05:00 <summatusmentis> lol, ok, sorry :)
May 06 19:05:01 <SuN> How large is that?
May 06 19:05:08 <SuN> Doesn't seem _too_ large.
May 06 19:05:16 <doc|work> SuN: compare it to his hand
May 06 19:05:43 <SuN> For all I know it's a leprechaun!
May 06 19:05:44 <doc|work> it's not too large but looks wider than the freerunner
May 06 19:06:50 <doc|work> meh, not to pushed about the diamond touch, looks like a zune
May 06 19:07:48 <summatusmentis> kinda does, but it's sexy
May 06 19:08:31 <summatusmentis> :-/ I don't think gsm works very well in either of the two places I live...
May 06 19:08:34 <summatusmentis> bum deal
May 06 19:22:43 * ScaredyCat dances
May 06 19:23:12 <summatusmentis> why?
May 06 19:23:26 <ScaredyCat> just because
May 06 19:23:46 <summatusmentis> oh, ok
May 06 19:24:02 <summatusmentis> someone should just fix GSM converage in the US
May 06 19:31:36 <CMatters> it's broken?
May 06 19:32:05 <mwester> It's not too complete.
May 06 19:32:35 <CMatters> if you step outside of cities, yeah
May 06 19:32:53 <CMatters> never had a problem in any US city I've been in
May 06 19:33:38 <mwester> If you look at a map, the coverage marks the urban centers, and the transportation corridors between them.  Not so good if you need to step outside those areas; makes your cell phone just extra weight.
May 06 19:34:48 <CMatters> true.  I would say T-Mobile and AT&T have been playing the cost/benefit game
May 06 19:35:23 <CMatters> part of business.  I have the same issue when I am in Eastern Europe.
May 06 19:36:11 <mwester> The biggest problem, really, is that GSM as it stands today is designed for a certain minimum density, and that matches Western Europe better than many other places.  For example, even at 850 MHz, the typical density of cellphones to towers in Montana may well be less than one!!
May 06 19:37:26 <CMatters> well, perhaps if T-Mobile completes its acquisition on Sprint, that will change in a few years.  They would likely convert the Sprint/Nextel network from CDMA to GSM
May 06 19:37:34 <CMatters> *of
May 06 19:38:39 <mwester> I still think we'll have huge chunks of emptiness in North America, where GSM just doesn't make sense.  But that'll still be a vast improvement over the near-monopoly that AT&T now has on GSM.
May 06 19:39:01 <SpeedEvil> I don't know what the price of a tower is.
May 06 19:39:31 <SpeedEvil> A minimal capacity one, with a lowest cost (microwave point-point) ?
May 06 19:39:38 <CMatters> I assume it varies greatly by tower simply because of real estate rental
May 06 19:39:44 <mmontour> You can always buy/rent a satellite phone if you _need_ coverage in remote areas. 
May 06 19:39:45 <SpeedEvil> yeah
May 06 19:40:02 <mwester> :)  I suspect the tower is cheap in Montana, and the land could be bought for a song.  But installing same, and running power lines to it, and maintaining it when the nearest maintenance staff is 250km away... that's the cost.
May 06 19:40:42 <CMatters> I take it you live in Montana?
May 06 19:41:57 <mwester> Nope.  Chicago suburbs.  So I have GSM coverage from AT&T.  But I'm too far from Chicago to have reliable coverage with T-Mobile.  And travelling to my customers (MN, KS, etc) I try not to rely on cell phones...
May 06 19:42:28 <CMatters> Isn't broadband availability a big issue in rural America, as well?  I would think the adoption of both in rural areas have similar issues
May 06 19:43:18 <CMatters> My T-Mobile phone jumps over to AT&T towers whenever a T-Mobile one isn't available
May 06 19:43:35 <mwester> All forms of service had been issues; the government has legislated things to ensure that infrastructure is made available in those places where it isn't usually cost-effective to build it.
May 06 19:43:58 <mwester> Yeah, but that doesn't work with the GTA01 'cause it's 900MHz only - euro triband.
May 06 19:44:05 <CMatters> ah
May 06 19:44:26 <CMatters> well.. both of my phones are from Europe and it works for me
May 06 19:44:39 <mwester> Are they quad-band, or triband? 
May 06 19:44:52 <CMatters> I take that back, I picked up the motorola in Taiwan
May 06 19:45:00 <CMatters> Tri
May 06 19:45:07 <mwester> most are quad anymore, and they hop from AT&T to T-Mobile without any trouble.
May 06 19:45:25 <CMatters> The Motorola is about 4 years old
May 06 19:45:26 <doc|work> yeahm, did anyone get smacked for that oversight at openmoko?
May 06 19:46:34 <doc|work> by the way, is there a freq coverage map for canada?
May 06 19:46:58 <mwester> doc|work:  isn't that a total monopoly run by rogers?
May 06 19:47:43 <doc|work> pretty much, yes
May 06 19:47:51 <doc|work> rogers on gsm, others on cdma
May 06 19:48:02 <doc|work> but varying frequencies I think
May 06 19:49:18 <mwester> I played with the GTA01s in Ottawa, the standard one wouldn't register; apparently they require a response on 850MHz during registration even if the device ends up operating on the higher (supported) bands. :(
May 06 19:49:45 <doc|work> ugh
May 06 19:50:18 <doc|work> I'm from Ireland but living in Vancouver, don't want to have a phone I can't use when I go home
May 06 19:51:34 <mwester> Perhaps it's regional -- I wonder if anyone has a GTA01 in B.C.?
May 06 19:52:06 <mmontour> mwester: I do, and it works in Vancouver.
May 06 19:52:39 <mmontour> I'm on Fido - owned by Rogers, but still operated as a somewhat-independent company.
May 06 19:52:52 <doc|work> qually lame data plans unfortunately :/
May 06 19:53:27 <MrKeuner> hi, can i consider getting openmoko instead of an iphone for my wife who is no technical person at all?
May 06 19:53:47 <t_s_o> only if your looking for a divorce ;)
May 06 19:53:54 <doc|work> hah
May 06 19:53:56 <MrKeuner> hehe not yet
May 06 19:53:58 <ectomorph> anyone know if the freerunner will work good on the 900mhz and 1800mhz bands ?
May 06 19:54:38 <mmontour> ectomorph: The 'Euro' model of the Freerunner will. There will also be a North American model that does 850/1800/1900.
May 06 19:54:42 <SuN> Well, it's sort of designed for those, isn't it? :)
May 06 19:54:50 <ectomorph> i hope so :)
May 06 19:54:51 <MrKeuner> t_s_o: should I still consider it on alpha stage?
May 06 19:56:09 <kdean06> That distinction confuses me. The GTA01 is a "Euro model" right? I don't hear many American buyers complain about useless phones so I'd assume that the 1800/1900 offers sufficient coverage.
May 06 19:56:10 <t_s_o> MrKeuner: to tell the truth, i dont know. but my guess is that the iphone is a safer bet from a "style" standpoint...
May 06 19:56:49 <MrKeuner> she won't care for style as long as neo does the job of receiving calls without _any_ problems
May 06 19:57:18 <mmontour> MrKeuner: see above, "only if your looking for a divorce ;)"
May 06 19:57:25 <SpeedEvil> Get a neo - sure.
May 06 19:57:29 <SpeedEvil> Also get a nokia 1100.
May 06 19:57:37 <kdean06> How our wives affect us...
May 06 19:57:40 <doc|work> MrKeuner: not wanting to do openmoko out of a phone but ... why a freerunner if it's just for calls?
May 06 19:57:45 <SpeedEvil> Or similar low-end phone, to swap the SIM into, in case thigns go wrong.
May 06 19:57:58 <SpeedEvil> GPS tracking doc|work.
May 06 19:58:06 <kdean06> My wife tipped me off to GSM instability. Apparently I've grown used to my calls not being 100% reliable, but it's pissing her off now.
May 06 19:58:08 <doc|work> SpeedEvil: hahaha
May 06 19:58:12 <doc|work> sparq: smrt!
May 06 19:58:48 <doc|work> er, sorry sparq tab complete mis-hit
May 06 19:59:01 <abraxa_> kdean06: I'm surprised GSM is such a big deal in the States. I've never ever had reliability problems in Europe
May 06 19:59:21 <MrKeuner> doc|work: no she will want to use other features too but they can wait as long as she won't have problems with the basic functions
May 06 19:59:26 <kdean06> abraxa_, GSM isn't unreliable here. My Neo is. :)
May 06 19:59:38 <CMatters> the network in the US is at least a generation behind Europe
May 06 19:59:42 <abraxa_> kdean06: Oh, she's using your Neo?
May 06 19:59:46 <t_s_o> i suspect most european nations have more stringent coverage demands...
May 06 20:00:04 <MrKeuner> doc|work: she/we can wait for others to be developed, or we can handle others being at beta stage
May 06 20:00:17 <kdean06> abraxa_, No, I'm using my Neo as my primary phone and it seems I miss a LOT of calls, or that when it appears to me a call fails it's actually ringing her...
May 06 20:00:22 <doc|work> MrKeuner: ah, ok
May 06 20:00:55 <abraxa_> MrKeuner: You can get her a Neo/Freerunner and use Qtopia. That runs pretty reliable except for some power management issues, I've heard. Maybe someone else here can comment - ScaredyCat, for example.
May 06 20:01:35 <SuN> Europe skipped the analog system, mostly (at least, it was never popular, growth only initiated after the implementation of GSM), and I guess most European countries are much easier to cover.
May 06 20:02:15 <doc|work> SuN: not entirely true, my father had an analog phone in Ireland in 1995 I think, wasn't even some high-flying businessman
May 06 20:02:26 <SpeedEvil> Mine too.
May 06 20:02:30 <SpeedEvil> Though in scotland.
May 06 20:03:01 <SuN> Yes, but this was before every 12-year old had a cellphone :D
May 06 20:03:03 <mjr> 'course, we had analog NMT systems here in the Nordic countries way back when...
May 06 20:03:35 <t_s_o> yep, i suspect NMT roaming laid the foundation for gsm roaming ;)
May 06 20:04:43 <t_s_o> but i think the big thing about going from analog to digital was the number of subscribers pr cell
May 06 20:05:09 <kdean06> I'd like to play with some of the Qtopia/Enlightenment/GTK/X11 builds mickey_away might have. :)
May 06 20:05:11 <t_s_o> this then allowed the operators to drop the prices thru the floor
May 06 20:06:56 <mwester> kdean06:  I'm hoping to get a recent Qtopia build, and see what it would take to get it reasonably working with the latest suspend/resume changes for the GTA01.  It might actually be a useable phone with that!
May 06 20:08:38 <kdean06> mwester, I've been using the recent kernels from the buildhost so I'm not sure if your fixes are in that or not... But if they are there MIGHT be issues affecting GSM stability. It seems GSM tends to go to sleep on it's own in the most recent issues though I only know now that my wife's failures to call me have gotten her pissed off.
May 06 20:09:11 <kdean06> Every now and then the Neo fails to make a call, but I never considered that it might have been unresponsive hours before I tried making that call. :(
May 06 20:09:21 <mwester> The recent kernels from buildhost still lack one of the key items required for reliable wakeup from GSM.
May 06 20:09:59 <mwester> And then there is still a random overrun problem when talking with the GSM.
May 06 20:11:12 <mwester> There are some hacky patches to address some of this, but they have not been submitted yet, as they are nowhere near ready.  I'll get another kernel put up on http://moko.mwester.net/ in the next day or so that should be lots better.
May 06 20:14:01 <mmontour> mwester: I'm also interested in trying out your new kernel. Do you happen to know whether suspend/resume will be compatible with root-on-SDcard?
May 06 20:20:40 <mwester> mmontour:  If it doesn't work right, it's a bug.  Nobody has tried it AFAIK, so it may not work.  (One of the possible resume time optimizations mentioned was to defer the SD card drivers, so if that is done, it might break root-on-SD)
May 06 20:20:54 <cl0s> what can I use on view and play with the freerunner cad files?
May 06 20:21:15 <cl0s> note: never used any type of cad program before in my life*
May 06 20:21:16 <XorA|gone> I think kernel 2.6.24 force unmounts all hotpluggable devices
May 06 20:21:20 <XorA|gone> which buggers stuff up
May 06 20:22:36 * mwester suspects that perhaps XorA|gone isn't really gone after all... :D
May 06 20:22:37 <CMatters> they were designed in ProE
May 06 20:22:54 <CMatters> but you can import them into AutoCAD if you have a newer version of AutoCAD
May 06 20:23:24 <XorA|gone> mwester: gone in the head ;-)
May 06 20:23:47 <cl0s> I'm on ubuntu.. i think autocad is spec for windows..
May 06 20:23:50 <mwester> Ah.  Well, in that case, I'd have to change my nick too.
May 06 20:24:24 <CMatters> I've run AutoCAD under WINE
May 06 20:24:25 <cl0s> ill look around, just seeing if anybody had something of the top of their head that they've used on this before...
May 06 20:24:27 <cl0s> thanks..
May 06 20:24:48 <cl0s> true, but then don't i have to "buy" it?
May 06 20:25:01 <CMatters> if you figure out a Linux app, let me know
May 06 20:25:23 <CMatters> only reason I haven't tried using the CAD files is because of the cost of buying the app to actually read them
May 06 20:25:57 <cl0s> http://www.cycas.de/ -- looks like the most popular for linux..
May 06 20:26:17 <CMatters> cl0s: there was a thread a month or so ago about apps to open the ProE drawings but I don't remember seeing a Linux app in there
May 06 20:26:55 <cl0s> lol @ the cad files being open source, but I can't get a app to view it in linux
May 06 20:27:53 <CMatters> I here you, I found it a little odd myself
May 06 20:28:04 <CMatters> I think ProE was a carry over from FIC
May 06 20:28:30 <cl0s> yea ah well.. i'm not really an engineer just wanted to play around with the files see if i could do something
May 06 20:28:52 <CMatters> gotcha
May 06 21:48:20 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * rbab4c891b65e 10/devices/ficgta01/configure: [neo1973] Do not build with bluetooth and voip anymore.
May 06 21:48:20 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * rddc229d4e7b7 10/src/server/server.pro: [dbus] Add the dbus dependency to src/server
May 06 22:00:44 <poli> Hello all! I am trying to find this information on the web site, but it isn't clear yet. Is the hardware (I mean circuitry) project also open source or somehow freely distributed?
May 06 22:03:42 <ewon> no, we all had to sign NDAs.
May 06 22:04:07 <ewon> in fact, openmoko runs on top of a proprietary HAL
May 06 22:04:22 <ewon> any attempt to document the HAL will result in the black helicopters coming for you
May 06 22:04:31 <ewon> all of the above is lies.
May 06 22:04:33 * doc|work fines ewon one testicle
May 06 22:05:02 <ewon> there are schematics on the wiki, if memory serves
May 06 22:05:32 <poli> ewon: lol thanks
May 06 22:05:35 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * rcc15be838450 10/gta02-dm2/tslib-1.0/autom4te.cache/ (7 files): nuke generated files
May 06 22:05:35 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * r800a21cc3665 10/gta02-dm2/tslib-1.0/aclocal.m4: remove generated file
May 06 22:05:36 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * r6fabab537892 10/gta02-dm2/tslib-1.0/ (config.guess ltmain.sh): remove more generated files
May 06 22:05:36 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * rdfba0f549082 10/gta02-dm2/tslib-1.0/config.sub: remove one more generated file
May 06 22:05:38 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * r464882c4bc1b 10/gta02-dm2/build: force-reconfig.patch
May 06 22:05:40 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * red916d6608d5 10/gta02-dm2/ (7 files in 2 dirs): fix-gps-buffering.patch
May 06 22:05:42 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * r8bbb4a679d31 10/gta02-dm2/ (20 files in 3 dirs): increase-compiler-warnings-make-fatal.patch
May 06 22:05:45 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * rb64f2eedf77a 10/gta02-dm2/src/ (gps.c nmea.c nmea.h tests-gps.c): add-gps-date.patch
May 06 22:05:48 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03agreen * re7a66b5a44cf 10/gta02-dm2/src/ (8 files): fix-gps-cn-and-rename-to-sn.patch
May 06 22:05:53 <SpeedEvil> ewon: it does not.
May 06 22:06:00 <SpeedEvil> ewon: no schematics
May 06 22:06:25 <SpeedEvil> at all
May 06 22:06:52 <poli> SpeedEvil: so they aren't provided at all?
May 06 22:07:53 <ewon> I was sure there was
May 06 22:07:59 <ewon> or am I thinking of the case files
May 06 22:08:01 <ewon> *shrugs*
May 06 23:54:42 <zeno_> hi, will the freerunner be "consumer ready"?
May 06 23:54:59 <zeno_> its for my wife, and shes not a linux guru (yet :)
May 06 23:59:46 <mmontour> zeno_: It may get there eventually, but it will not be consumer-ready when it is first released.
May 07 00:03:40 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r6fb9010d0bfd 10/ophoned/ (6 files in 2 dirs): python-ophoned: wrap head around pygsm and prototype something to learn more about pySerial
May 07 00:05:08 <zeno_> mmontour: ah ok thanks, i guess i could use it at first.  also does it work with t-mobile?
May 07 00:06:37 <mmontour> It should work with any GSM carrier as long as you buy the appropriate model (850MHz for North America, 900MHz elsewhere)
May 07 00:34:45 <CMatters> zeno: I think the target for a fully function consumer edition is 2009
May 07 01:18:16 <doobe05> Hello
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 07 02:59:56 2008