**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon May 19 02:59:57 2008 May 19 03:08:38 rtm not here? May 19 03:08:50 liwei: I am here. May 19 03:09:23 i conldn't find openmoko-keyboard, it not exist i think May 19 03:10:00 So opkg gave you error 4 on that package? May 19 03:10:19 yes May 19 03:10:28 i have install three pkg May 19 03:10:48 I'll try it on my neo1973 - stand by... May 19 03:11:35 i donn't know how to appreciate you May 19 03:12:14 Was the command which failed for you "opkg install matchbox-keyboard-im" ? May 19 03:12:30 no May 19 03:13:09 Was it "opkg install openmoko-keyboard" ? May 19 03:15:00 i install openmoko-keyboard unsucessfully May 19 03:15:24 can you install it? May 19 03:16:47 Yes, that command works for me. I first did "opkg remove openmoko-keybord" because I had the keyboard installed. May 19 03:17:17 I then gave the command "opkg install openmoko-keyboard", and that worked properly. May 19 03:18:24 can you copy install infomation for me? when you type opkg install openmoko-keyboard May 19 03:18:27 I have verified that after re-installation, the keyboard works properly. May 19 03:18:49 i want that pkg address May 19 03:19:07 It's going to be messy via IRC, but here's what I get: May 19 03:19:29 root@tacophone:~# opkg install openmoko-keyboardj May 19 03:19:29 Nothing to be done May 19 03:19:29 An error ocurred, return value: 4. May 19 03:19:29 Collected errors: May 19 03:19:29 Cannot find package openmoko-keyboardj. May 19 03:19:30 Check the spelling or perhaps run 'opkg update' May 19 03:19:34 root@tacophone:~# opkg install openmoko-keyboard May 19 03:19:36 like when i install matchabox-keyboard-im it show that Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/OM2007.2/tmp/deploy/glibc/ipk/armv4t//matchbox-keyboard-im_0.0+svnr1739-r7_armv4t.ipk May 19 03:19:36 Installing openmoko-keyboard (0.0+svn20070819-r1) to root... May 19 03:19:38 Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/ipk/armv4t/openmoko-keyboard_0.0+svn20070819-r1_armv4t.ipk May 19 03:19:41 100% |========================================================================| May 19 03:19:44 Configuring openmoko-keyboard May 19 03:19:45 root@tacophone:~# May 19 03:20:12 Sorry about the excessive text - I cut more than I should have. May 19 03:21:27 ok, that enough May 19 03:21:41 that is http://buildhost.openmoko.org/snapshots/2007.08/ipk/armv4t/openmoko-keyboard_0.0+svn20070819-r1_armv4t.ipk May 19 03:21:53 Yup May 19 03:21:58 why it in snapshots? May 19 03:22:12 I have no idea. May 19 03:22:23 thank you very much May 19 03:22:23 liwei: no problem May 19 03:51:16 rtm what's your rootfs version? May 19 03:52:23 liwei: Openmoko-openmoko-devel-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20080403-om-gta01.rootfs.jffs2 May 19 03:57:40 Does anyone know if the debug board sold with the neo1973 will be able to unbrick a Freerunner if, for example, u-boot gets trashed? May 19 05:13:32 rtm: A freerunner cannot be bricked May 19 05:14:01 That sounds like a challenge! May 19 05:14:12 But I appreciate the info. May 19 05:14:37 rtm: Why a challenge? It simply has a read-only NOR flash on board that contains a fallback u-boot May 19 05:15:06 So even if you trash the u-boot in NAND flash, you can still use the fallback too boot and reflash May 19 05:15:14 to boot* May 19 05:15:38 Sounds good. I didn't know that. May 19 05:15:46 :) May 19 05:16:11 Aside from that, the Neo1973 debug board is pin-compatible May 19 05:16:19 So it can be used as well May 19 05:17:07 is there any reason to have a debug board for general software hacking, or are they only useful/needed for doing low level ( flashes and whatnot)? May 19 05:18:11 If the Freerunner can't be bricked, then there is no need for the debug board for applications level software, I think. May 19 05:19:36 Correct. In fact, no one needs the debug board except for bootloader and hardware hackers May 19 05:20:22 and kernel debugging?! but its's a nice jtag board for fpga, microcontrollers etc May 19 05:21:06 tedo: That, too. It's just really not needed unless you do really low-level stuff, so really only few people will have a use for it May 19 05:22:02 that's good to hear that you cannot brick the phone easily. May 19 05:22:59 cool. another PCB i dont have to worry about getting ;) May 19 05:23:19 if one wants to update the bootloader with an official release can you usually do it without the debug board? May 19 05:26:49 what i wanted to ask is whether the debug board might be required to update some low level software components (e.g. bootloader) that might be released by openmoko at some time May 19 05:29:28 tubastian: No, it won't be needed for ard to update those things.. Even with the neo1973, you don't need the debug May 19 05:29:53 thats nice :-) May 19 05:30:27 Sorry about the glitched text. May 19 05:31:01 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r5eba6fb8b90c 10/ (18 files in 5 dirs): Merged sms with navicron branch May 19 05:31:02 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * re72db453d5e8 10/src/phonebook.c: Began adding proposed sms dbus methods for sms application. May 19 05:31:02 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * rd6a1d43018ef 10/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Added modifymessage method May 19 05:31:03 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r6a13a4f2ec56 10/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Began modifying store message May 19 05:31:08 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r09c6dae5d8fa 10/src/ (7 files): StoreMessage now uses a{sv} signature May 19 05:31:11 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * rd1cf1082c7d2 10/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Fixed retrieving a sms May 19 05:31:46 btw: any news about the mass production? May 19 06:19:54 Anyone around using Qtopia on their Neo? May 19 06:22:10 how to move application to QEMU emulator May 19 06:31:53  how to move application to QEMU emulator May 19 06:33:07 soundar, I don't understand your question. May 19 06:43:29 paulproteus: me May 19 06:44:18 ljp, Oh, hey there. (-: May 19 06:44:25 Does wake from sleep on GSM ring work in Qtopia on Neo? May 19 06:44:43 And are you using the latest snapshot/internal source tree of Qtopia? May 19 06:46:17 I think I'll try the openmoko-qtopia-image on http://buildhost.automated.it/OM2007.2/ . May 19 06:55:00 paulproteus: not really, but I havent checked updating the kernel/rootfs yet. and I havent had time to do much work on the neo May 19 06:55:54 not sure of the status of relavant kernel/hardware bugs regarding that May 19 06:56:44 morning May 19 06:57:39 g'morning May 19 07:00:28 why i can hear nothing from earphone when i make a call May 19 07:01:03 good morning May 19 07:01:29 i cann't hear anything from earphone, but i can hear press button sound, while havn't a call May 19 07:07:23 no updates from steve yet ! May 19 07:07:26 how come ?? May 19 07:08:12 morning May 19 07:08:36 not yet, at least in the ml May 19 07:17:09 I think the factory engineers have killed steve when he went to ask for an update :-p May 19 07:18:20 openmoko is rocking my world, and i dont even own a freerunner yet May 19 07:18:36 i want freerunner May 19 07:18:37 now May 19 07:18:45 let them work their magic May 19 07:19:06 Moving the Application into QEMU emulator May 19 07:19:27 anyone has a qemu img I can download? May 19 07:19:52 i want openmoko to hurry up and build too May 19 07:20:13 at least my my core2duo is being productive May 19 07:20:58 re May 19 07:23:36 i just thought of something May 19 07:23:49 has anyone ported dasher to openmoko? May 19 07:23:58 i love that thing May 19 08:24:06 i really want a freerunner but does the phone software work really reliably? (need for work) May 19 08:24:47 not really from what i gather May 19 08:25:40 aww :\ maybe ill keep my cheapo phone AND the moko May 19 08:51:33 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r45fec90bbbbc 10/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Sets PDU mode on in initialization May 19 08:51:34 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * rbbbd8779f0d2 10/test/ (gsmd_common.py sms_unit.py): Fixed sms tests May 19 08:52:09 openmoko: 03zecke * r6f54075ffdf0 10/qtopiacore/qt/src/gui/kernel/qkeymapper_x11.cpp: [qt] Key event compression and autorepeat reordered key events May 19 08:52:09 openmoko: 03zecke * r10df646a9d07 10/qtopiacore/qt/src/gui/kernel/qwidget.cpp: [qt] Attempt to resize application windows only once May 19 08:52:10 openmoko: 03zecke * r4f7df94616ff 10/src/libraries/qtopiaphonemodem/qmodemsupplementaryservices.cpp: [gsm] Look at CBS dcs and convert. Currenlty it takes only the default alphabet into account May 19 08:52:11 openmoko: 03zecke * r6b52394deeef 10/qtopiacore/qt/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): [qt] Attempt to layout and paint only once on startup May 19 09:14:07 Where can I find the source for neod? May 19 09:16:54 in the openmoko source tree ... ${OMDIR}/openmoko/ May 19 09:24:07 hi May 19 09:24:08 what's up May 19 09:24:30 every thing, but qemu down May 19 09:24:39 from the last three days, i am trying to get it up. May 19 09:30:24 How can I determine the orientation of the screen? (In a C program) May 19 09:30:27 i am using 'make openmoko-devel-image' command, first it gives an error that /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr is not 0, so i did ' echo "0" >/proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr' May 19 09:30:39 now, this error is solved May 19 09:30:47 but again build is stopped due to May 19 09:31:04 mmalam@mmalam-laptop:~/openmoko$ make openmoko-devel-image May 19 09:31:04 ( cd build && . ../setup-env && \ May 19 09:31:04 ( bitbake openmoko-devel-image u-boot-openmoko ) ) May 19 09:31:04 ERROR: no files to build. May 19 09:31:19 although, all the envoirnment variables are set May 19 09:31:27 any clue? May 19 09:37:50 any help!? May 19 09:50:02 * * OM Bug 1394 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com May 19 09:50:03 * * Device has crashed and function is freezing rarely. May 19 09:50:04 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1394 May 19 09:52:56 looks like u doesn't have some bb file May 19 09:53:34 thanks! May 19 09:53:40 any other pointer in this regard? May 19 09:53:50 where can i find that bb file. May 19 09:54:22 maybe in the oe repository May 19 09:54:35 or in an old revision May 19 09:55:27 try to build u-boot-openmoko to check if the problem is in the u-boot bb file May 19 09:57:22 make: *** No rule to make target `u-boot-openmoko'. Stop. May 19 09:57:32 make setup was successful. May 19 09:58:38 is it quite difficult to compile the qemu? May 19 10:00:01 i'm looking for a openmoko qemu img myself May 19 10:01:51 How can I determine the orientation of the screen? (In a C program) May 19 10:11:53 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * rb4760a5a83f7 10/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Modified fso api to support listing unread messages only May 19 10:39:08 Hi all. How hard is it to run openmoko on palm hardware? May 19 10:41:12 elmargol: Don't know, but I've seen a video on youtube with it May 19 10:42:21 palm os sucks! :/ crashes here every 10 minutes (wifi enabled) May 19 10:44:22 elmargol: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=openmoko+palm&search_type= May 19 10:44:51 elmargol: But I doubt you can find a driver for the Wifi, but I could be wrong May 19 10:46:49 Yes I know... at least I can write my own applications for it May 19 10:55:39 Anyone know how the make my application full screen? It's a C application May 19 11:06:01 ebbe: Which toolkit are you using? May 19 11:06:13 Tronic: Toolchain May 19 11:06:17 GTK+, I guess... May 19 11:06:26 Tronic: Yep May 19 11:06:36 Read its documentation. May 19 11:07:09 Hehe. Right. RTFM ;) May 19 11:50:33 monotone.openmoko.org seems to be very slow May 19 11:51:12 monotone itself is slow May 19 11:53:26 it would be really nice if someone finally got around to switching away from it May 19 11:53:44 balrog-kun: you mean like we are doing May 19 11:54:21 XorA: are you? is it a process that takes longer than an hour or two? May 19 11:54:52 * XorA wonders why every FOSS hacker forgets about any form of QA or infrastructure May 19 11:55:20 maybe you have to deplay a new build infrastruture and test it ... May 19 11:56:13 freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * r483841929ba9 10/ (src/modem.c src/modem.h src/network.c vendor/wavecom-900e.c): Set AT+COPS? reply to always reply with operator's name. May 19 11:56:37 dunno, you have to test that users are still capable of cloning the tree, nothing else changes May 19 11:56:53 like moving a repository from cvs to svn May 19 12:17:49 Bon ap ! May 19 12:40:07 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r2d7058e648b4 10/ophoned/ (gsm/const.py gsm/mediator.py objects.py): python-ophoned: implement missing methods in org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM May 19 12:40:07 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * ra13f37731ca5 10/ophoned/ (gsm/channel.py objects.py): May 19 12:40:07 freesmartphone.org: python-ophoned: [TI CALYPSO] no longer hammer the modem to keep it from falling asleep, but rather keep May 19 12:40:07 freesmartphone.org: a global communication timestamp and send a wakeup-character if necessary. May 19 13:10:25 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r8793175fe12b 10/ophoned/gsm/channel.py: python-ophoned: [TI CALYPOS] refactor wakeup logic into VirtualChannel base class (where it belongs). May 19 13:43:39 hopefully things are spinning up May 19 13:44:14 * SpeedEvil cues spin-up noise of mechanism in garbage crusher in the death star. May 19 13:44:25 bang May 19 13:45:10 lets make oil from that trash May 19 13:45:28 mix it with sewer May 19 13:59:08 I canny ger a gpess fux! May 19 14:00:16 u sound like a glasweigen :) May 19 14:03:14 aye aah nooo.. tis may scorti impersan-ashun May 19 14:04:36 u just need to walk around in a vest and drink special brew May 19 14:06:58 veest! veests ar fer poooofs May 19 14:07:12 * ScaredyCat drinks some specialbrew May 19 14:56:26 awk '/SNRM/&&$2>3{system("./retrain")}' adslout May 19 14:56:29 oops May 19 14:56:48 adslout! May 19 14:57:43 It's a line to make my ADSL modem automatically retrain May 19 14:57:52 back up if the SNR margin is too high May 19 14:59:48 I found that my modem can be set to require a higher SNR, in the case of a noisy line. May 19 15:00:25 A few minutes poking revealed that 65520 resulted in a lower SNR margin. Lack of bounds checking ++ May 19 15:00:30 * SpeedEvil sighs. May 19 15:02:12 :( May 19 15:02:36 SpeedEvil: there is no new info, how you know that? May 19 15:02:54 "before 16'th" ~= "before (16+1w)th" May 19 15:03:08 :-) May 19 15:03:09 chihchun: I was just updating the topic back from what it was accidentally set to. May 19 15:04:41 SpeedEvil: ah, ok May 19 15:33:28 did anyone compile the openmoko using distcc successfully ? May 19 15:34:04 freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * r3669032455cc 10/ (11 files in 3 dirs): May 19 15:34:04 freesmartphone.org: Minor fixes and refactoring May 19 15:34:04 freesmartphone.org: More support for Neo 1973 May 19 15:34:05 freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * r0f8aa9a0b41a 10/ (src/modem.c src/sim.c test/gsmd_common.py test/sim_unit.py): Fixed test init and SIM tests after Neo support changes May 19 15:34:29 is the free runner out yet? May 19 15:34:31 * daMaestro joking May 19 15:34:33 ;-) May 19 15:35:31 what can I buy a freerunner now? May 19 15:37:17 I'm selling freerunner clone devices for $200 in my ebay store. May 19 15:37:29 Made from high quality cheddar, and painted by artisans. May 19 15:45:57 SpeedEvil: well at least cheddar phones are edible May 19 15:48:16 mmm, cluster of freerunners compiling :) May 19 15:48:33 huh ? May 19 15:48:37 did anyone compile the openmoko using distcc successfully ? May 19 15:48:48 ah May 19 15:49:06 ahven,i do not know May 19 15:49:35 neither have I tried compiling with distcc May 19 15:50:28 ahven: probably you will be happier using icecream instead of distcc :P May 19 15:51:32 yep :) May 19 15:52:01 steve haven't showed up in here yet ? May 19 15:53:03 freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe * re74beeb378a7 10/ (15 files in 5 dirs): Clean up leftovers from ousaged May 19 15:56:48 oh,icecream is good May 19 16:04:45 when i run "bitbake openmoko-devel-image" ,then return the error messge "unable to open conf/bitbake.conf" , what's the matter ? May 19 16:11:32 winux: Looks like your environment setting is bad May 19 16:11:46 oh,let me see May 19 16:55:54 ljp, Hmm, "just in time" my 'net connection went out. May 19 16:57:13 Howdy PMT. May 19 17:00:47 openmoko: 03thomas * r4442 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (7 files): opkg: (leak fixing, day 1) lots and lots of memory leaks fixed May 19 18:36:02 its a great project May 19 18:42:01 gl May 19 18:42:08 oops wrong window May 19 19:08:19 hi guys, anyone happen to know how exactly the gsmd enables the modem to wake the cpu in suspend mode? May 19 19:08:45 It doesn't - AIUI. May 19 19:09:00 The modem just sends 'ring' or whatever when it rings May 19 19:09:07 and the SoC wakes on interrupt May 19 19:10:12 ok, ok May 19 19:10:30 the wiki is short about it, i think May 19 19:13:07 hey, one of my source tars was downloaded badly, will make update solve that? May 19 19:13:22 with mokomakefile May 19 19:14:27 I'd guess it's best to remove them from the sources folder and fetch again May 19 19:16:01 i deleted it from the source folder, ran "make update" and then tried to build again, but now it just complains about not finding the file May 19 19:18:34 any ideas? or do i have to clean everything and build again haha May 19 19:27:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtBQ4UCXQeo May 19 19:32:12 ok i think i got it, nm May 19 19:37:12 can someone tell me what package this is?? i am trying to clean it so that corrupt download will refetch... May 19 19:37:15 NOTE: Running task 2079 of 5899 (ID: 26, /home/geogriffin/moko/openembedded/packages/u-boot/u-boot-openmoko_1.3.1+git+svn.bb, do_unpack) May 19 19:37:19 ewon, what does he say in your vid?? May 19 19:41:06 geogriffin: just remove the .lock and the matching tar.gx (or whateve and md5) file from your sources dir May 19 19:41:36 memcpy(block16,outbuf,16); the package will be called everything up to the _ May 19 19:41:45 errm, - the memcpy May 19 19:43:16 ScaredyCat: where would the .lock file be? i removed the tar.gz and md5 but it just complains about not finding it May 19 19:46:41 sorry got detached from my proxy May 19 19:46:48 the lock file would be in the sources dir too May 19 19:47:05 same filename as the tarball with .lock on the end May 19 19:47:22 hmm there is no lock file with that name May 19 19:47:49 ok, so: bitbake -c rebuild u-boot-openmoko May 19 19:53:11 any word on mass production and testing? May 19 19:53:42 ok i think that did the trick May 19 19:53:47 thanks, ScaredyCat May 19 19:54:07 :) May 19 20:09:56 Heh, got bored to wait that phone. I bought another. May 19 20:12:37 I'm getting kinda bored with my p1i, it's not very hackable. May 19 20:35:17 cool .. steve responded at last :-D May 19 20:35:19 "Whats up with the freerunner mass production?" thread on the mailing list May 19 20:36:15 with? May 19 20:37:03 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017520.html May 19 20:37:10 with that May 19 20:38:56 because that bad phone really was good May 19 20:39:01 wth May 19 20:39:30 ju8ne 1st then? May 19 20:56:15 * CM has started a new build from scratch, finally May 19 21:10:35 openmoko: 03zecke * rafc90c286993 10/pixmaps/ (42 files in 42 dirs): Make white transparent in the icons. May 19 21:10:35 openmoko: 03zecke * r9c44b5a26840 10/devices/ficgta01/src/plugins/audiohardware/ficgta01/ficgta01audioplugin.cpp: Blind fix to get the ring tone back May 19 21:18:24 g'evening May 19 21:58:34 * raboof watched someone demo the web browser at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btY2SFVrOsc - pretty neat! May 19 22:02:18 that's cool May 19 22:03:33 hi all May 19 22:03:58 i'm having trouble getting my GPS up and running May 19 22:04:33 anyone from India around ? May 19 22:14:08 rakshasa:hi May 19 22:28:02 has anyone done anything interesting with the CAD files? May 19 22:28:10 (sorry - i've been away from neo hacking for a while) May 19 22:29:29 ferric: I don't think anyone has the facilities/money to do anything real with them :) May 19 22:30:31 interesting. May 19 22:31:09 abraxa_: I'm trying to figure out what those files describe? just the outer shell? or what? May 19 22:32:37 everything that's not the PCB May 19 22:34:40 ah, so just the outer shell. May 19 22:39:04 isnt it the same shapes thats imaged on openmoko.com? May 20 00:13:55 any recommendation for the best image for using gta01 as your everyday phone May 20 00:15:19 Psi: Might wanna try http://downloads.openmoko.org/asu/ May 20 00:15:34 thanks May 20 00:17:23 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017504.html is the accompanying review May 20 00:33:14 hi raster May 20 00:33:52 moo May 20 00:38:33 abraxa_, holy. moly. May 20 00:39:24 daMaestro: Hmm? May 20 00:39:38 things are looking good May 20 00:40:09 Did you test the image? May 20 00:40:16 the flash, too May 20 00:40:45 I'm not sure it runs on GTA01, so I'd be grateful for some feedback on this May 20 00:40:48 it's come a long ways since the first build May 20 00:40:55 sure, i'll flash my device tonight May 20 00:41:11 glad to see my ~$300 was well spent on developing the freerunner May 20 00:41:19 yay for non-vaporware! May 20 00:41:56 Yeah... personally I'm not too happy with Qtopia but it's the best we have, so whatever May 20 00:42:09 Buys us time to do Openmoko the right way :) May 20 00:42:13 is qtopia *final* May 20 00:42:15 ah, right May 20 00:42:39 No idea honestly May 20 00:42:56 I assume it'll be replaced eventually May 20 00:43:01 it's not like the device can't be flashed with anything May 20 00:43:04 exactly May 20 00:43:29 well.. except andriod.. unless google spend the time to backport to armv4 May 20 00:45:37 android also brings in a wonderful new proprietary display system and api's May 20 00:46:15 abraxa_, What is it about what will ship on Openmoko that you dislike? I defended Qtopia on one of the lists (and I meant it) but I'm wondering why people dislike it. :) May 20 00:47:51 kdean06: Simply cause it's Trolltech's work and I don't want Openmoko to look like they're just making money with other people's stuff - call it pride, if you want May 20 00:48:16 Fair enough. May 20 00:48:50 qtopia is open source, so they can make it "their stuff" May 20 00:49:25 That's a good point, actually. Openmoko should release a press release and spin it as a strategic cooperation rather than copying. And to be fair, it's been sexified. :) May 20 00:50:34 I'll say that original or not, the mockups and design goals and stuff make me want to spend money on it... Nothing trolltech offered got that kind of response. May 20 00:50:59 But yeah, there's something to be said for originality. :D May 20 00:51:06 abraxa_, doesnt seem to boot at all May 20 00:51:09 ljp: Yeah, and I acknowledge all the hard work Trolltech put into the platform. I am wondering however: as the Greenphone is pretty much dead (if not entirely), is Trolltech happy that it finds good use with Openmoko's phones? May 20 00:51:11 just wait for a purely lisp based software stack ;-) May 20 00:51:47 abraxa_: trolltech killed the greenphone and recommends using the neo now iirc May 20 00:51:48 Psi: That's too bad... I wonder why that is. In that case, using the latest builds on ScaredyCat's server might be a good idea May 20 00:51:53 kdean06: i do not like qt or qtopi because libqt/libqBLAH is... GPL. May 20 00:52:25 abraxa_, doesnt even start to boot, looks like a uboot issue May 20 00:52:29 raster, Yeah. That's one of my complaints. :( I'm not super fond of the GPL myself. May 20 00:52:37 i dont mind GPL May 20 00:52:38 but May 20 00:52:48 gpl ensures things remain open source May 20 00:52:50 it means i only have 2 choices if i am a 3rd party developer May 20 00:52:57 Right. May 20 00:52:57 1. make my apps gpl if i use libqt May 20 00:52:58 OR May 20 00:53:04 pay trolltech May 20 00:53:08 i cant use mit-xx May 20 00:53:10 or bsd May 20 00:53:22 or make a closed 3rd party app because that is how i wish to doit May 20 00:53:37 writing an app for the platform means i now longer have freedom May 20 00:53:43 well not without a price-tag May 20 00:53:48 GPL removes choice, and that's what Free Software is about. Sure, most people are willing to comply with the GPL, but I'm not keen on making that decision for others. May 20 00:54:20 It's also just overly wordy. :) BSD/ISC is just easier to deal with. May 20 00:54:22 Unless nobody cares. May 20 00:54:28 kdean06: actually no; part of the goal of Free Software is to eliminate proprietary software May 20 00:54:32 kdean06: Dunno. I personally would never write code for free that companies can sell without paying me a dime May 20 00:54:35 * SpeedEvil points at the various vendors continuing to violate the GPL. May 20 00:54:42 unknown_lamer: exactly May 20 00:54:43 kdean06: forcing users of a library to use the GPL helps forward that goal wonderfully May 20 00:55:38 ljp: who knew that reading most of what RMS wrote would come in handy one day :-) May 20 00:55:47 unknown_lamer, Richard Stallman's goal is to eliminate non-free software. That isn't the goal of "free software". I support free software and I support your right to choose not to use it. They're not in conflict, however much the FSF tries to spin it. May 20 00:56:12 I think the FSF is allowed to define the goals of the free software movement since it is their movement May 20 00:56:14 how could proprietary software be 'Free Software'? May 20 00:56:41 abraxa_: never write anything that is open source then :) May 20 00:56:56 You have to remember that Stallman witnessed firsthand what happens when greedy people have accessed to bsd/mitish licensed code (Symbolics) May 20 00:57:03 and then how that code is lost *forever* May 20 00:57:18 unknown_lamer, I'll respectfully disagree with you. The Free Software Foundation lost the right to speak for user choice the moment Richard Stallman began spouting off about using the force of law to eliminate user choice. May 20 00:57:42 kdean06: proprietary software by its very nature eliminates user choice May 20 00:57:48 the 'user' has less rights under bsd/lgpl May 20 00:57:51 kdean06: how does the GPL eliminate user choice? May 20 00:58:26 GPLV3 I think he means. May 20 00:58:43 It eliminates the user's choice to grab the source code, make it proprietary, and charge you for it. May 20 00:58:53 you mean the right to opress others May 20 00:59:02 which is not a right ... May 20 00:59:14 Well, it's a choice... May 20 00:59:18 unknown_lamer, Points of clarification. I said the GPL was overly wordy, and locks in VENDORS. I don't think the GPL is end-user restrictive. My complaint specifically was with Richards' "Proprietary software should be illegal" stance. Free Software by force is no better than non-free by choice. May 20 01:00:17 unknown_lamer, And secondly, I'm not anti-capitalist. I see nothing wrong with charging for a product or service. If you don't want someone doing it, don't license to allow it. I'm simply saying why I dislike it. May 20 01:00:18 kdean06: you said users not vendors / he said proprietary software *developed by government using public funds* should not be proprietary / pointless given the qualification of publically funded software May 20 01:01:12 imgo the fact that gpl is viral THROUGH a public published interface May 20 01:01:15 ie qt's api May 20 01:01:18 or any library's api May 20 01:01:22 is just wrong May 20 01:01:27 if qt was lglp - great May 20 01:01:43 there is a "system library" exception clause May 20 01:01:51 ie libs youwould normally find on an os May 20 01:01:58 BUT that is very hazy May 20 01:02:03 is qt one of those? May 20 01:02:05 gtk? May 20 01:02:08 libjpeg? May 20 01:02:14 any lib you like? May 20 01:02:36 its a world of license-pain and hell May 20 01:02:39 I think the intent is for that to be limited to the basic interface to kernel / core OS services May 20 01:02:40 cru: maybe - but you'd need to add a capacitor too May 20 01:02:44 oops May 20 01:02:50 and frankly imho the gpl should not extend beyond a public publishe api May 20 01:02:59 be it linked into your own address space via syumbol tables May 20 01:03:24 or via an ipc pipe (eg dbus, or x protocol or xmlrpc, etc. etc.) May 20 01:03:29 SpeedEvil: you could add a capacitor to the licensing discussion, few would notice. May 20 01:03:31 even RMS says dont use lgpl. May 20 01:03:37 unknown_lamer: that intent is unclear May 20 01:03:40 that is a problem May 20 01:03:48 in my opinion a gui lib *IS* a basic os service May 20 01:04:04 without such i am heavily limited in how i can display anything May 20 01:04:21 personally i dont give a hoot what rms says May 20 01:04:36 i am a software developer and i want to write code. May 20 01:05:01 raster: the exception only applies to a GPLed program using a proprietary implementation of the system library May 20 01:05:06 and i dont want to be beholden to someoen elses philosophies just because i write software for a platform and use the api's it happens to ship with May 20 01:05:10 if qt were lgpl, we couldn't release as much of it as we do May 20 01:06:30 ljp: oh - i know! May 20 01:06:41 ljp: for tt it's a specific business becision May 20 01:06:50 and i respect tt's right to license as they see fit May 20 01:06:54 absolutely May 20 01:07:15 at the same time i prefer to have the right to license my application or lib as i see fit May 20 01:07:27 if there is a system api to display widgets or draw that ison the platform May 20 01:07:30 so in the end, lgpl does not propegate free software like the gpl May 20 01:07:35 i would expect to be able to use it and still have my freedom May 20 01:07:45 as it is "supplied" as a core part of the platform May 20 01:07:51 but - that is not the case with a gpl lib May 20 01:08:05 yes May 20 01:08:09 lgpl is not viral May 20 01:08:10 :) May 20 01:08:14 (as i like to call it) May 20 01:08:28 but imho true freedom *IS* the freedom of choice May 20 01:08:32 yes, the lgpl is about proprietary software May 20 01:08:37 not just for the user, but for the developer too May 20 01:08:59 and true freedom give me the freedom to write closed software - if i so want May 20 01:09:24 if my users (market) will shun my app as a result May 20 01:09:26 that is my problem May 20 01:09:31 but that takes away freedom from the users May 20 01:09:37 and a matter of appeasing my market as it desires May 20 01:09:41 no May 20 01:09:52 the users have the freedom not to purchase/download/use that app May 20 01:09:53 but use another May 20 01:09:59 yes, because then they no longer have the same freedoms as you May 20 01:10:02 note i qm talking about 3rd party software May 20 01:10:19 not what the user buys as a piece of bundled software with the device May 20 01:10:34 correct May 20 01:10:42 i chose not to give my users the fgreedom to poke around my code May 20 01:10:48 that is a choice of mine May 20 01:10:51 thats not free software May 20 01:10:55 i know May 20 01:11:07 so as such if a platform REQUIRES i use a gpl lib May 20 01:11:07 its business as usual May 20 01:11:20 then u have removed my freedoms May 20 01:11:30 so i have a choice here May 20 01:11:36 1. make my app gpl May 20 01:11:39 but your users dont May 20 01:11:48 or 2. simply ignore your platfrom and develop for another that doesnt require that May 20 01:11:51 The users have the choice not to use an app May 20 01:11:55 yes May 20 01:11:56 so using lgpl is very selfish May 20 01:11:57 thats is my point May 20 01:12:03 For example. May 20 01:12:06 it is NOT an app they cantt' choose May 20 01:12:09 Consider a deent mapping program. May 20 01:12:10 it is a 3rd party choice May 20 01:12:12 a download May 20 01:12:13 Decent May 20 01:12:24 a "this is a closed app - download and accept that limitation" May 20 01:12:32 they agreed to the choice on download May 20 01:12:35 with good maps of a country, and routing that works well. May 20 01:12:42 I'd be quite happy to pay for that. May 20 01:12:53 good example May 20 01:12:59 and maps themselevs cost money May 20 01:13:05 like it or not - good maps are not cheap May 20 01:13:14 someone SPENDS a lot of money aquiring al the data May 20 01:13:17 Modulo stuff like OSM May 20 01:13:25 Which may eventually come up with good maps May 20 01:13:32 other spend lots of time developign code to route and work around all the map bugs and inaccuracies May 20 01:13:33 but not for several years at best. May 20 01:13:37 (in most palces) May 20 01:13:39 yup May 20 01:13:53 but if the map app was fast, efficient, did a good job and was a reasonable price May 20 01:13:58 why not sell a closed one May 20 01:14:07 get reward for your time and effort to creat it May 20 01:14:30 Especially as the map data vendors will not let you sell an open-source one. May 20 01:14:42 but May 20 01:14:50 toi do this i also need to pay a royalty to trolltech May 20 01:14:57 its like a tax May 20 01:15:10 to do that for wince/winmob i don't May 20 01:15:17 i dont need to do it for the iphone May 20 01:15:24 and having to buy closed maps isnt a tax? May 20 01:15:29 not to mention the customerbase fo those is SOOOOO much larger May 20 01:15:40 ljp: choosing to buy closed maps vs not having any maps May 20 01:15:45 why would i then bother making an app for the freerunner? May 20 01:15:48 is not a choice May 20 01:16:10 Hmmm. I think I might *need* a Freerunner. I think I just broke my Treo650/sim card :-( May 20 01:16:16 I was hoping they were available. lol May 20 01:16:27 Oh well May 20 01:16:45 ljp: you cannot - the data vendors will not let you - sell a GPLd map program. May 20 01:17:08 How good are Google's maps? May 20 01:17:10 (without at least some closed source part that protects the data) May 20 01:17:15 Q_Continuum: The first mass-produced batches supposedly hit the distributors around June 1st May 20 01:17:22 sweet. May 20 01:17:40 because I can't use my phone :-( it says check the sim card. May 20 01:17:41 lol May 20 01:18:03 Q_Continuum: mostly fine - they are very licence restricted though. All you can basically do is look at them online. You cannot cache them. May 20 01:18:04 Looks like I'll be buying a rechargable for now, and hoping it works... May 20 01:18:32 SpeedEvil: I'll bet if you worked with Google, they'd be willing to do something for the OpenMoko - as its also something they could use for Android. May 20 01:18:49 Or they might have something already in the works for Android, that could be pulled over. May 20 01:19:02 Q_Continuum: the problem is not google. May 20 01:19:19 Q_Continuum: the problem is t hat google license data from the map vendors. May 20 01:19:25 I understand the licensing issue - doesn't google have its own maps? May 20 01:19:42 Q_Continuum: the map vendors want a _much_ larger slice of the pie for maps that the user downloads to their device. May 20 01:19:57 I'm thinking more along the lines of a GPL'd front-end that ties into maps.google.com - or are we talking off-line data? May 20 01:20:03 off-line May 20 01:20:07 * Q_Continuum might've missed crucial convo May 20 01:20:08 Dang. May 20 01:20:19 You can't (legally) do anything beyond show tiles online. May 20 01:20:31 You can't cache areas of the map for later use for example. May 20 01:20:32 SpeedEvil: i think u can cache May 20 01:20:41 SpeedEvil: but only to the same extent a browser would dumbly cache May 20 01:20:44 yes May 20 01:20:57 u cant go an "download all the maps for my city and keep them permanently cached" May 20 01:20:59 for example May 20 01:21:05 yeah. May 20 01:21:13 i guess the caching is more to the intent of it May 20 01:21:24 <_charly_> hi :) May 20 01:21:28 if the intent is just simply to avoid mroe data xfer in a generic way - good May 20 01:21:46 if it is intended to attempt to keep maps for a large region even if u never used the maps - then you are dicing with death May 20 01:22:14 Yeah. The map ninjas will come for you in the night with their weighty theodolites. May 20 01:23:16 how come the numeric keypad is still in terminal? i would have though that would be fixed by now? May 20 01:24:34 The numeric keypad could work quite well - if it had A-F too. May 20 01:24:48 and all the symbols May 20 01:25:18 its totally useless in terminal as it is, so i wonder why its still there May 20 01:25:40 It's not totally useless - merely clunky May 20 01:26:24 it doesnt even have a / May 20 01:26:38 I found one somewhere IIRC May 20 01:27:12 or a tab for autocomplete May 20 01:39:02 u'll love the new qtopia+x11 image then May 20 01:39:06 doesnt even have a terminal May 20 01:39:07 "_ May 20 01:39:09 :) May 20 01:41:54 * mmontour stabs Bluez (headset audio in particular) with a rusty spork May 20 01:43:01 sco? bleh May 20 01:43:14 Does anyone have any hints on the significance of "hcid[13049]: Unable to lock headset" when trying to play a wav with 'aplay'? May 20 01:46:39 Your headset does not have the stainless steel explosively-actuated flesh locks enabled. There should be a pink button somehere on the headset. May 20 01:48:51 raster: that's a subject that'll get the qtopia folks REALLY riled! ;) :D May 20 01:49:18 mwester: no terminal? May 20 01:49:19 :) May 20 01:50:11 :D Why a terminal on a phone would be a good thing -- they'll get all defensive, and argue that it's open-source, and if you want a terminal, write one yourself. :D May 20 01:50:42 And then if you point out that there's already several for X-11, and none for Qt, they get REALLY angry! May 20 01:51:18 and if we dont ship their favorite temrinal we will suck May 20 01:51:43 Nah. The lack of a useful on-screen keyboard will distract everyone. May 20 01:51:53 hhehehheheh May 20 01:52:04 well i did install gpe-terminal May 20 01:52:09 as i literally have no terminal May 20 01:52:16 (and that just puts a .desktop file in for rxvt) May 20 01:52:34 which of course doesnt accept inptu thanks to the new "no manual way to pop kbd up/down" May 20 01:52:42 so i gave up and dont use a terminal on my phone May 20 01:52:46 as frankly its too much effort May 20 01:54:04 I just mostly gave up on the phone. Without complete apps, we used the terminal for a lot of start/stop scripts. Without a useful suspend/resume, the six phones we bought at work just collect dust. May 20 01:54:06 It'll get fixed one way or another, I expect. It's rather too bad, though. The display is a bit smaller than the N800, but it seems to me that the GTA0x should reasonably be expected to work as well. May 20 01:54:26 sagacis: suspend/resume is almost completely working now. May 20 01:54:45 mwester: except when I want to get/make a phone call after suspending..... :( May 20 01:55:06 I haven't tried it since Thursday, tho. I'm trying to update the build. May 20 01:55:17 I've been using Scaredycat's images. May 20 01:55:22 Just a bit of time still required to get the last little bits in place. In the meantime, you can try a kernel that'll work with recent images that has early patches that should fix the GSM after suspend. May 20 01:55:29 http://moko.mwester.net May 20 01:55:35 I'll give it a shot. May 20 01:55:53 I was happy to see with suspend I could carry the phone all day.... May 20 01:56:23 Is the lack of suspend/resume what caused Openmoko to give up on their applications and adopt qt apps? May 20 01:56:36 One report indicates that if you removed "console=ttySAC0" from the boot args in u-boot, you may have to put that back to get it to work; I've not investigated that any further yet. May 20 01:56:42 rtm: no. May 20 01:56:53 mwester: What was? May 20 01:56:58 I'd work on it myself, but since upgrading to Hardy, I haven't been able to build all the way through.... May 20 01:57:05 I don't seem to have as much time as I used to. May 20 01:57:12 I don't know for sure, rtm -- I expect general progress was the biggest issue. May 20 01:57:16 mwester: I tried it both ways. May 20 01:57:39 mwester: They didn't seem *that* bad. May 20 01:58:00 I liked them.... I'm not such a big fan of Qt, personally... I like the gtk toolkit better May 20 02:00:15 rtm: :) I guess it depends on expectations. Qtopia is a pretty complete phone software stack. I think OM will be the more versatile in the long run, if folks work on it (kinda like the maemo stuff) May 20 02:00:44 Will it be difficult to launch gtk-based apps using the new Qtopia stack? May 20 02:00:44 I'm not a fan of the Qt stuff at all, but the phone apps looked very good indeed. May 20 02:00:57 Very shiny. May 20 02:01:03 I haven't tried the new stuff; I can't get it to build for the gta01 May 20 02:02:06 mwester: It doesn't seem to run on GTA01 anyway May 20 02:02:24 Ah. Well, that would be a rather more serious problem, then! May 20 02:02:35 that's a bummer.... I'm already in the dust.... May 20 02:02:36 I presume that's something we can fix? May 20 02:02:40 It hasn't even been a year. May 20 02:03:17 mwester: No idea. Kernel doesn't boot and with a different 2.4.24 it gets stuck in a loop spitting out jffs2 error messages May 20 02:03:23 2.6.24* May 20 02:03:40 Different kernel? Ick. May 20 02:04:24 We just need to get a VM running on the gta01, then. May 20 02:04:29 mwester: I mean... the kernel on http://downloads.openmoko.org/asu/ doesn't boot on GTA01 and a kernel that does boot can't handle the jffs2 rootfs. May 20 02:04:41 So much to do. And with the OM/OE build system, so little disk space left! :D May 20 02:04:51 heh May 20 02:05:15 mwester: so I need both the kernel and the neod patch, right? May 20 02:06:12 The kernel, yes -- the neod patch is actually optional. Without the neod change, you'll just find that it won't stay suspended for long because any change in signal strength will have the GSM waking the GTA01 to tell it about it. May 20 02:06:47 So I'd try the kernel only at first, and make sure that it suspends and resumes ok. Then you can start messing with the neod and apmd configs. May 20 02:06:59 ok May 20 02:07:33 Hmm... I dont' like Firefox3's download window. May 20 02:08:47 Greetings :) May 20 02:08:52 sagacis: You might like its privacy policy even less. May 20 02:09:02 anyone added gtk-directfb before? May 20 02:09:16 Uh-oh. Better read it. May 20 02:11:50 sagacis: http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/05/13/mozilla-firefox-data/ May 20 02:14:13 As long as it's turnoffable-onnable - I don't see an issue. May 20 02:15:24 Fact is: it's currently being done already through their automatic updates and you can't turn that off May 20 02:16:43 As I read that - what tehy are saying is simply that FF occasionally asks if there is a new version. May 20 02:16:58 And that's what they're logging. May 20 02:17:26 It's FF version only May 20 02:19:03 Yes, but a lot of programs ask the user if he's okay with submitting data (even anonymous) to the creator May 20 02:19:09 How long does the suspend take to go to full suspend by default? May 20 02:19:20 They don't even do that now, so I don't see why they would do it with more private data then May 20 02:20:06 I assumed it was doing this the first time I got a 'there is a new version of FF' dialog. May 20 02:20:09 It's obvious. May 20 02:20:12 (to me) May 20 02:20:21 Maybe it was just guessing? May 20 02:21:01 gtk-directfb issue.. anyone can help? May 20 02:21:32 alan: I haven't done it before. May 20 02:23:32 SpeedEvil: On http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/11/27/mozilla-firefox-market-share/ it's said that it does transmit "anonymous" data with every ping to the update server - from what I know, no one ever asked me if that's okay May 20 02:23:42 hmm.. alright.. anyone else that can help me? May 20 02:26:48 abraxa__: where that data is your FF version as I understand it. May 20 02:28:41 abraxa__: And I aslo vaguely recall something saying this on the first time it did it on FF1.5 May 20 02:29:04 SpeedEvil: Hmm okay, I don't have any proof cause I don't remember :) May 20 02:29:13 I'm just wary of these efforts, that's all May 20 02:30:24 It's also turnoffable from prefs->advanced->updates. May 20 02:30:50 There is also a note on that blog post that many distributions turn off that switch, and manage the updates themselves May 20 02:31:31 Thanks for the hint May 20 02:34:10 mwester: I imaged to your kernel, but get the same thing. It wakes for the first incoming phone call. I answer, then hang up from the phone.... May 20 02:34:33 wait for the device to fully suspend again (about 5 minutes, hear a click from the speakers), and I can't answer it any more. May 20 02:37:15 :( Debug time... The readme describes the "nspy" mechanism to dump the driver<->GSM communications. You might like to enable that, duplicate the failure, and dump the buffer (use the little script in the readme to make sure the buffer is completely empty; there's a limit on how much data can be read in one go from sysfs). May 20 02:40:37 OK.... Sounds like it'll take a few minutes. May 20 02:41:03 OK, I got that downloads.openmoko.org/asu/ image to boot on GTA01 (mounted it with mtdram then did a new mkfs.jffs2) but it's not happy. Complains about a critical battery, and didn't respond to the 'answer' button when I called it. May 20 02:55:41 * jaebird wonders how foreign gtk apps will look inside qtopia **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue May 20 02:59:56 2008