**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu May 22 02:59:57 2008
May 22 03:02:26 <raster> git://git.openmoko.org/git/openmoko.git openmoko no workies for moi
May 22 03:02:45 <raster> i have had to now fix dhcp, had bizarre build break in exquisite - built 2nd try,
May 22 03:02:56 <raster> and imlib2 wont build
May 22 03:03:04 <raster> tho thats a spurious dependency i am removing in upstream now
May 22 03:04:57 <al_> rwhitby: shall we download the latest mokomakefile
May 22 03:05:03 <al_> it is working now?
May 22 03:05:18 <rwhitby> yes - you didn't see the announcement on the mailing lists?
May 22 03:05:26 <al_> i have
May 22 03:05:39 <al_> but some people reported problems.
May 22 03:06:01 <rwhitby> yes, those have been fixed.
May 22 03:06:59 <al_> one thing: do we need to delete all the directory structure built from preivous mokomakefile?
May 22 03:07:13 <al_> or only download the update make file.
May 22 03:12:35 <theLichKing> according to openmoko.com, they are sold out.. any idea when they're gonna have new ones?
May 22 03:23:11 <mmontour> *** NAUGHTY PROGRAMMER!!! *** SPANK SPANK SPANK!!! - Cute error message. (openmoko-qtopia-x11-image on GTA01)
May 22 03:39:47 <al_> rwhitby: what about Nokia N800 
May 22 03:39:59 <al_> is it fully open source, i mean can one change its kernel plus FS
May 22 03:40:19 <al_> how do you compare openmoko with Nokia N800
May 22 03:41:58 <josch> al_, it is not
May 22 03:42:21 <mwester> Has Nokia released source to the wifi card then?
May 22 03:43:22 <josch> Despite being based on Linux and open source software in general, some parts of the Internet Tablet OS remain closed source. Particularly the Wifi drivers, which contain a binary blob, and some user-space stuff, like certain statusbar and taskbar applets (including the display brightness applet) and applications.
May 22 03:43:25 <josch> [wikipedia]
May 22 03:44:01 <al_> josch: can one customize the kernel, which means patch the kernel, add/remove new modules?
May 22 03:44:36 <josch> throwing also binary blobs in the pot this is possible, yes
May 22 03:45:38 * raster doesnt mind a good binary blobbing... as long as shit still can be rebuilt
May 22 03:46:35 <al_> josch: Once you are done with the patching and configurations, compile the kernel and flash the zImage to the N800. Also do the following on your host machine:
May 22 03:46:35 <al_> ln -s /path/to/kernel-source-rx-34-2.6.18/vmlinux /boot/vmlinux-2.6.18-omap1
May 22 03:46:50 <al_> source: http://www.kernel.sg/roller/eugene/entry/experiences_getting_systemtap_work_on
May 22 03:47:29 <al_> josch: can we change the file system of N800?
May 22 03:47:46 <josch> oh and as we speak about /other/ hardware: have a look at pandora too
May 22 03:48:13 <josch> it seems they give the better option when one cares about 100% free driver support
May 22 03:48:27 * raster ponders if he should wipe nokia's image and put mamona on his n800
May 22 03:49:02 <josch> they state everything is supported by free drivers except the 3d accel but as someone playing ff7 showed one doesnt know this acceleration
May 22 03:50:49 <josch> and also to note - i know some guy working on reengineering the powervr
May 22 03:51:50 <josch> al_, i know people who tried to change their filesystem to debian or angstrom
May 22 03:52:03 <josch> i even tried myself with a 770 but had no luck
May 22 03:52:20 <josch> the boot process is /very/ weird
May 22 03:52:31 <josch> and i found no documentation about it
May 22 03:53:01 <josch> the neo is so damn easy to hack (see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian) so i was disappointed with the 770
May 22 03:53:28 <al_> josch: and with N800
May 22 03:53:29 <al_> ?
May 22 03:53:35 <josch> i dont have one
May 22 03:53:45 <raster> same a 770 really
May 22 03:53:46 <josch> i will never buy this proprietary shit again
May 22 03:54:29 <josch> and with proprietary i mean, that it is really hard to change something
May 22 03:54:58 <josch> search the net and there are only very few people who investigated time to examine the boot process or such things
May 22 03:55:08 <josch> the hacker community around this device seems very small
May 22 03:55:38 <josch> show me one tutorial that shows me how the 770 boots and i will take back all i said
May 22 03:58:01 <josch> as i said have a look here: http://pandorawiki.org/Pandora this device is 99% oss (as i said apart from the vga accel you wont need) and they are using uboot and i know devs building with openembedded for it - just as we do here for the neo
May 22 03:58:53 <josch> imho this is a much better choice for people wanting to buy an "internet tablet" (without a phone) AND want to hack it
May 22 04:06:15 <SpeedEvil> yur: yes
May 22 04:06:17 <SpeedEvil> oops
May 22 04:09:28 <al_> josch: you are right
May 22 04:09:34 <al_> but it is a phone!
May 22 04:09:55 <josch> al_, the freerunner?
May 22 04:10:15 <al_> josch: the pandora
May 22 04:10:19 <josch> no
May 22 04:10:29 <josch> it's designed as a gaming handheld console
May 22 04:10:32 <josch> running linux
May 22 04:10:50 <al_> yes, but can one try some developement for phone on this machine
May 22 04:10:54 <al_> no  i think so.
May 22 04:11:42 <josch> ??
May 22 04:11:46 <josch> xplain plz
May 22 04:14:45 <al_> josch: some developement specifially targetted for phones such as openmoko cannot be tested on this gaming console.
May 22 04:15:12 <josch> of course not
May 22 04:15:46 <josch> i only mentioned it because it's much closed to the things you would do on a nokia tablet because it has no wifi too
May 22 04:15:52 <josch> i mean: no gsm
May 22 04:22:42 <Psi> how much of the 500mA goes to running the neo if its on while charging?
May 22 04:22:48 <Psi> gta01
May 22 04:25:19 <daMaestro> very little
May 22 04:25:20 <daMaestro> lol
May 22 04:25:29 * daMaestro is just guessing
May 22 04:55:23 <dvarnes> wah
May 22 05:48:19 <doron> morning
May 22 06:33:55 <methril> morning
May 22 06:40:58 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * r904a9d417d4e 10/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
May 22 06:40:58 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Serial handling fixes
May 22 06:40:58 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Fixed Neo1973 support
May 22 07:26:23 <d3vice> g'morning
May 22 07:26:34 <methril> morning
May 22 07:31:06 <nab> Good morning all!
May 22 07:31:22 * nab adds OpenMoko Freerunner to the main Linux-iSCSI.org page
May 22 07:31:25 <nab> :-)
May 22 07:32:26 <nab> I wonder if anyone has actually tried it with LIO-VM yet.
May 22 07:32:27 <nab> :-)
May 22 07:33:25 * nab checks the download logs
May 22 07:34:42 <nab> [root@bbtest0 httpd]# grep ipk * | wc -l
May 22 07:34:42 <nab> 19
May 22 07:34:51 <nab> I wonder how many actual setups. :P
May 22 07:35:27 <nab> Actually, some of those are neo1973 packages as well
May 22 07:35:30 <nab> But anyways
May 22 07:35:55 <nab> What is the latest work on mass production folks..?
May 22 07:36:01 <nab> s/work/word
May 22 07:36:34 <methril> in the ml they said June
May 22 07:36:48 <nab> methril: Thanks
May 22 07:37:03 <methril> you are wellcome
May 22 07:37:23 <nab> I think the N810 WiMax device is going live in early July I believe..?
May 22 07:37:37 <nab> (If you are lucky enough to have Mobile WiMax in your area)
May 22 07:37:50 <nab> Should be an interesting summer. :-)
May 22 07:38:07 * nab waves
May 22 07:38:15 <nab> Greetings XorA
May 22 07:38:19 <methril> should be
May 22 07:38:34 * XorA has no wimax :-(
May 22 07:38:58 <nab> XorA: Then you should jump on Ebay and get a antennee
May 22 07:39:11 <nab> Well, those are fixed Wimax I think.. :-)
May 22 07:39:16 <nab> eg v1.0 if you wil
May 22 07:39:18 <nab> will
May 22 07:39:54 <nab> Mobile WiMax is v2.0 with the lower latencies (I have heard 50 ms RTT pings) and better coverage for moving about, etc.
May 22 07:40:55 <nab> http://cgi.ebay.com/LONG-Range-WiMAX-WiFi-ANTENNA-3-4-10-8Ghz_W0QQitemZ140232891245QQihZ004QQcategoryZ61816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
May 22 07:41:04 <nab> Actually, I can't tell if that is Mobile WiMax or not
May 22 07:41:11 <nab> I would assume not. :-)
May 22 07:41:43 <nab> Hopefully those will come on the market soon as intel's mobile WiMax ASIC starts to go volume
May 22 07:42:25 <nab> (Which is what the N810 WiMax and countless other USB modems are using)
May 22 07:43:05 <nab> 2010 is the year supposedly where mobile WiMax covers everything basically
May 22 07:43:25 <nab> But anyways
May 22 07:43:33 * nab steers the discussion back into OM-devel
May 22 07:43:42 <XorA> this is the UK so probably 3010 :-)
May 22 07:43:48 <nab> Heheh
May 22 07:43:50 <nab> Wooooooooop
May 22 07:43:52 <methril> hahaha
May 22 07:43:58 <nab> Mobile ISDN lines
May 22 07:44:00 <nab> :P
May 22 07:44:20 <methril> the problem in Spain are the Teleco companies
May 22 07:44:28 <nab> The UART needs to be 115200 for 128 kbit!
May 22 07:44:42 <nab> 115200 bps of course
May 22 07:45:03 <nab> methril: I think the US is going to be lucky to have Xohm
May 22 07:45:27 <nab> And the big cash info for intel/google
May 22 07:45:32 <nab> s/for/from
May 22 07:45:35 <methril> let's see how politics things are going around here :)
May 22 07:45:42 <methril> nice
May 22 07:45:57 <nab> Hopefully that will put the US back into the wireless/broadband game
May 22 07:45:57 <methril> intel has investing money in that way, isnt' it?
May 22 07:46:05 <nab> Because our cable/dsl sucks for the most part
May 22 07:46:17 <methril> wireless is the future
May 22 07:46:17 <nab> methril: <nod>
May 22 07:46:35 <nab> Actually, Intel has been pushing Mobile WiMax from the start.
May 22 07:47:08 <nab> As we must not forget, its all about the Pentiums
May 22 07:47:09 <methril> let's see
May 22 07:47:30 <nab> Or Atom, or whatever they call their low TDP x86 mobile design
May 22 07:47:41 <nab> Personally, I like the VIA C7 more. :-)
May 22 07:47:46 <nab> (For x86 mobile stuff)
May 22 07:47:58 <methril> less power consumption
May 22 07:48:02 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * r72e0dcb5142f 10/src/server/simplebuiltins.cpp: [callscreen] Obey the compiler and return something from here
May 22 07:48:02 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * rbebb791a63bb 10/src/libraries/qtopia/qtopiaapplication.cpp: [x11] Add a hack to set the Qtopia property on all windows.
May 22 07:48:14 <nab> I believe the VIA C7 Mobile platform has the mobile WiMax radiio as well..
May 22 07:48:19 <nab> Not sure if its Intels, probably not.
May 22 07:48:47 <nab> They are all going to Nokia. ;-)
May 22 07:48:55 <nab> Anyways, I need to hit the hay
May 22 07:49:07 <nab> Catch you folks tomorrow evening.. 
May 22 07:49:42 <methril> hit the hay?
May 22 07:49:47 <nab> ZzzzZZzzz
May 22 07:49:51 <methril> k
May 22 07:50:03 * nab will refrain some using bad southern US lingo
May 22 07:50:09 <nab> Gnight :)
May 22 07:50:14 <Hopscotch> good morning
May 22 07:50:14 <methril> gnight
May 22 07:50:19 <nab> hehehe
May 22 07:50:57 <malik1972> good afternoon
May 22 07:57:48 <loufoque> april software update coming soon? Like, next april?
May 22 07:58:13 <geogriffin> haha thank you
May 22 07:58:13 <josch> malik1972, afternoon???
May 22 07:58:27 <josch> malik1972, you life in germany, right??
May 22 07:59:07 <josch> s/life/live/
May 22 07:59:07 <apt> josch meant: malik1972, you live in germany, right??
May 22 08:00:37 <geogriffin> it is always interesting writing software with people from half way around the world
May 22 08:01:09 <geogriffin> staying up till 5 or 6 in the morning
May 22 08:03:57 <malik1972> josch: just a joke!;-)
May 22 08:04:33 <malik1972> to beo correct: moin
May 22 08:45:29 <malik1972> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Using_QEMU_with_MokoMakefile: qemu-arm does not compile anymore, did someone changed anything?
May 22 08:49:31 <zedstar> getting a problem with my public key on projects can anyone ssh to the projects machine to see if theirs works?
May 22 08:50:24 <Sup3rkiddo> zedstar, maybe its one of those weak keys?
May 22 08:50:45 <zedstar> sup3rkiddo is this the recent ssh/key update/
May 22 08:50:47 <zedstar> ?
May 22 08:50:59 <zedstar> i did notice some software update relating to keys in ubuntu
May 22 08:51:10 <zedstar> but didnt read it of course
May 22 08:51:22 <Sup3rkiddo> zedstar, yes...atleast i received alerts from savannah to change my keys asap
May 22 08:52:03 <diego_at_work> zedstar, you should read always the security warning ... ^^
May 22 08:52:23 <Sup3rkiddo> zedstar, all debian derivatives including ubuntu were affected..upgrade your openssl package and generate new keys for yourself
May 22 08:53:23 <zedstar> ok thanks......yeh package updated already just broke my cvs to projects machine
May 22 08:54:14 <diego_at_work> better to be broken  by an package upgrade than by a cracker ^^
May 22 08:55:40 <zedstar> ok i will read the update messages in future ;P
May 22 08:56:11 <Sup3rkiddo> ~lart zedstar for not reading security updates
May 22 08:56:11 * apt whips zedstar with a wet and grimy noodle just because for not reading security updates
May 22 08:56:30 <zedstar> ooh kinky
May 22 08:56:52 <Sup3rkiddo> o.o indeed....who comes up with these stuff...grimy noodle?
May 22 08:56:59 <zash> note: disabling tunneld clear text passwords was bad when that happend
May 22 09:15:05 <facka69> hi neo's
May 22 09:15:11 <tedo> i'm trying to build 'qemu-local' with the openmoko makefile. It doesn't build because libsdl_mixer failes to build. Where do i disable the libsdl packages. I already tried it in packages/tasks/task-openmoko-feed.bb. (I'm new to oe)
May 22 09:16:02 <josch> tedo, maybe libsdl_mixer is broken atm - sometimes it's enough to wait a few hours until it's fixed
May 22 09:16:25 <malik1972> i have also problems with the makefile, something changed
May 22 09:16:54 <tedo> josch, thx. i tried it a few days ago and some sdl stuff was broken there, too.
May 22 09:16:55 <Sup3rkiddo> malik1972, that may be because of the transition to git
May 22 09:16:57 <josch> did rwhitby already check in his new version?
May 22 09:17:00 <Sup3rkiddo> yes
May 22 09:17:05 <josch> ah thats it ^^
May 22 09:17:06 <Sup3rkiddo> make update-makefile
May 22 09:17:36 <facka69> i have an big problem and don't know an answer: if i try power up the modem (ssh), i get the error "Modem power-up failed: 10" without an PIN request!??? :( 
May 22 09:17:42 <josch> tedo, sry i'm not very into the oe stuff either - i knew it a few month back but... :P
May 22 09:18:22 <tedo> not so important atm. just want to play around...
May 22 09:18:42 <diego_at_work> facka69, do you have a gta01b4?
May 22 09:19:07 <malik1972> Sup3rkiddo: i use the makefile for emulation with qemu-arm, there is a big change since yesterday, git, bitbake and so on
May 22 09:19:15 <Sup3rkiddo> yes
May 22 09:19:23 <facka69> diego_at_work: yes
May 22 09:19:31 <tedo> errormsg:  /usr/lib/libc.a: could not read symbols: File format not recognized On a Amd64 linux
May 22 09:19:35 * Sup3rkiddo clobbered everything and started afresh
May 22 09:19:53 <diego_at_work> is your sim enabled for umts?
May 22 09:20:30 <facka69> diego_at_work: do you mean me?
May 22 09:21:31 <diego_at_work> facka69, yes. Take a look at this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gsmd
May 22 09:21:59 <diego_at_work> and this:http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666
May 22 09:24:43 <facka69> diego_at_work: i have already look at the wiki and when i try power up i get the error
May 22 09:24:52 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03thomas * r4448 10/trunk/src/target/opkg/libopkg/ (7 files): opkg: remove redundant multiple_providers option and also remove redundant familiar_revision pointer from the pkg struct
May 22 09:25:17 <facka69> diego_at_work: do you mean it is an 3G bug
May 22 09:26:00 <methril> 3G?? :O
May 22 09:26:01 <diego_at_work> facka69, it's possible
May 22 09:26:14 <methril> UMTS isn't 3G
May 22 09:27:03 <josch> tedo, could it be that there are some libs that dont fit your architecture?
May 22 09:27:07 <diego_at_work> facka69, try with libgsm-tool -m shell to see if you can manually power up
May 22 09:28:39 <tedo> josch, just found the same issue in the om mailinglist. apparently a libpath is missing to the libc.
May 22 09:28:56 <josch> seems so
May 22 09:28:57 <tedo> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2008-May/002731.html
May 22 09:29:18 <josch> but dont ask me more - i simply made my last om build months ago ^^
May 22 09:29:45 <tedo> thx anyway i try to fix it in my temp files
May 22 09:30:21 <facka69> diego_at_work: when i enter libgsm-tool -m shell and enter ?, i get list a lot include "O" for Power On
May 22 09:30:21 <diego_at_work> btw there is no such think as 3G. 3G is just a marketing name for umts
May 22 09:30:38 <diego_at_work> yes
May 22 09:32:30 <facka69> diego_at_work: that means also that it is possible to power on manually? 
May 22 09:33:42 <tedo> josch, this worked -> The Makefile is broken.
May 22 09:59:46 <facka69> diego_at_work:it is the bug 666!
May 22 10:00:13 <diego_at_work> welcome to the club
May 22 10:00:38 * diego_at_work is looking for the old good gsm only sim ^^
May 22 10:23:53 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03vesa.pikki * rcf519edc8e5a 10/ (17 files in 4 dirs): 
May 22 10:23:53 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: More serial fixes.
May 22 10:23:53 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Added modemstate.
May 22 10:23:53 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Some minor cleanups/renames.
May 22 10:25:09 <k-s> mickey|sofa: do you have bb files to build python-efl already?
May 22 10:32:40 <josch> k-s, should there be new bb or what?
May 22 10:34:27 <k-s> josch: just want to know, because it would make user's life easier... but I think there is, due mamona guys
May 22 10:35:58 <josch> k-s, life easier? i installed a bb generated ipkg as early as in january this year
May 22 10:38:17 <k-s> josch: ah! so excellent
May 22 10:38:26 <josch> ^^
May 22 10:38:42 <josch> this is why i wondered about your question ;)
May 22 10:39:28 <josch> and as you can see with the underground distribution it works quite well ^^
May 22 10:40:19 <k-s> ok, thanks
May 22 10:40:36 * k-s really needs time to build newer gta02 image
May 22 10:40:39 <k-s> :-(
May 22 10:55:32 <malik1972> where can i find a *tar.gz asu rootfs?
May 22 10:57:07 <XorA> malik1972: DIY at the moment
May 22 10:59:15 <malik1972> s/DIY/???
May 22 10:59:36 <spyre> I think he means do it yourself
May 22 10:59:50 <malik1972> ohhh no;-)
May 22 11:00:07 <zash> and tar czf for us lazy
May 22 11:00:13 <josch> malik1972, if XorA sais so you have no other choice.. :/
May 22 11:00:29 <josch> XorA, how far are you with stripping down the ASU for gta01 size?
May 22 11:00:41 <XorA> josch: getting closer
May 22 11:00:46 <XorA> josch: down to 58M
May 22 11:01:18 <josch> :)
May 22 11:01:23 <josch> gogogo!
May 22 11:03:31 <zash> and it needs to be lt 64M?
May 22 11:06:40 <XorA> 58M leaves 1.6M free
May 22 11:10:42 <malik1972> xora: thats enough to have a look at asu on gta01
May 22 11:10:55 <XorA> malik1972: it crashes on boot :-(
May 22 11:11:01 <josch> noes :(
May 22 11:11:50 <malik1972> xora: where i can find an howto for jffs2tgz?;-)
May 22 11:12:49 <XorA> malik1972: if you can wait until tomorrow, Ill make the autobuilder make tar.gz images
May 22 11:13:21 <malik1972> ok, i will wait
May 22 11:13:45 <malik1972> otherwise i have done it before:-)
May 22 11:21:34 <mickeyl> k-s: of course. I have added bbfiles for EFL back when no one else was interested in EFL except the E17 dudes :) that was in 2003 IIRC
May 22 11:27:56 <Sup3rkiddo> hi all, http://sudharsh.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/odeviced-progress-report-p/ ..please check it out
May 22 11:29:47 * raster <- dude
May 22 11:29:56 <rwhitby> morning
May 22 11:33:10 <Sup3rkiddo> this of course, is my gsoc project :P
May 22 11:38:26 <XorA> josch: 53M
May 22 11:38:51 <josch> \o/
May 22 11:38:59 <josch> does it boot?
May 22 11:39:05 <josch> what is removed?
May 22 11:39:11 <XorA> josch: no idea, ill try after lunch
May 22 11:39:16 <XorA> and nothing essential removed
May 22 11:39:24 <XorA> just cruft
May 22 11:39:44 <josch> like gtk and stuff 
May 22 11:40:21 <josch> Sup3rkiddo, he screenshot are good for everything - even cli stuff :P
May 22 11:40:39 <Sup3rkiddo> hehe
May 22 12:02:56 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * rd51a0ed8204f 10/conf/machine/om-gta01.conf: om-gta01.conf : add tar.bz2 image types for people who want to boot SD
May 22 12:03:50 <spyre> mickeyl: how about adding fso.SMS.ListMessages a parameter called type (again feel free to rename) which maps to +cmgl's stat parameter
May 22 12:06:49 <spyre> mickeyl: I'm trying to think of ways to be able to support sms application and still remain low level
May 22 12:17:32 <spyre> mickeyl: I'm also pondering about SMS if.. is it necessary at all? Is e.g. pyPim(p)d going to fetch sms messages, store them to it's own storage and delete them from sim automatically?
May 22 12:26:05 <spyre> mickeyl: maybe it could only contain SendMessage(message,contents) and signals, rest could imho move to SIM if and SIM if have SendMessage(index)
May 22 12:26:49 <XorA> josch: it boots
May 22 12:27:05 <josch> \o/
May 22 12:27:09 <josch> upload it !!
May 22 12:27:10 <tedo> yes! make qemu-local was successful
May 22 12:27:19 <XorA> josch: Im getting buildhost to build it
May 22 12:27:24 <josch> :-)
May 22 12:31:59 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * r45885b30b113 10/packages/qtopia-phone/qtopia-phone-x11_4.3.1.bb: qtopia-phone-x11_4.3.1.bb : fix om-gta01 RDEPENDS bump PR
May 22 12:31:59 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03graeme 07org.openmoko.dev * r305a75151675 10/packages/e17/e-wm_cvs.bb: e-wm_cvs.bb : granualise the packaging to reduce .ipk size
May 22 12:32:43 <XorA> rootfs                   61.1M     55.0M      6.1M  90% /
May 22 12:34:43 <raster> good job
May 22 12:34:46 <raster> nb
May 22 12:34:56 <raster> u probably can nuke imlib2 from it now
May 22 12:35:01 <raster> i have some patches i need to git-push
May 22 12:35:50 <raster> epsilon no longer needs imlib2 as of today - removed it as its just a silly dep
May 22 12:41:28 <XorA> raster: cool
May 22 12:41:46 <XorA> e is performing nicely on gta01
May 22 12:41:55 <XorA> qtopia not so well, it segfaults somewhere
May 22 12:42:41 <raster> XorA:  it performs better actually - imho :)
May 22 12:43:04 <XorA> raster: I never took you for humble :-)
May 22 12:43:09 <raster> hahahah
May 22 12:43:14 <raster> i mean on gta012
May 22 12:43:16 <raster> comapred to gta02
May 22 12:44:00 <XorA> raster: I would agree with that
May 22 12:44:09 <XorA> slidier launcher actually works on gta01
May 22 12:44:25 <raster> hehehehehe
May 22 12:44:40 * raster kick the glamo one more time for good measure
May 22 12:44:49 <k-s> raster: wait wait wait
May 22 12:44:52 <k-s> GIT PUSH!?
May 22 12:44:55 <k-s> WTF?
May 22 12:44:58 <raster> personally i reallty wish we had not let the gta03 get int he way
May 22 12:45:09 <raster> gta04 was shaping up handsomely
May 22 12:45:28 <SpeedEvil> I'd be surprised if GTA04 was doable in 6 months.
May 22 12:45:33 <raster> k-s: que puta que te pario!
May 22 12:45:36 <raster> :)
May 22 12:45:58 <k-s> raster: u using git... OM is making u so good
May 22 12:46:02 <raster> i was much in happiness with the 272x480 3" screen we had found
May 22 12:46:44 <SpeedEvil> No! It's gotta be 800*600 if you're going that large.
May 22 12:47:01 <raster> its 3" "widescreen"
May 22 12:47:07 <raster> its smaller than the current display in area
May 22 12:47:09 <k-s> epsilon needs rewrite, but first needs to gather real requirements
May 22 12:47:19 <raster> its just a little logner and a fair bit thinner
May 22 12:47:22 <raster> much slimmer
May 22 12:47:25 * SpeedEvil was not being completely serious.
May 22 12:47:34 <raster> k-s:  epsilon code is a dogs breakfast!
May 22 12:47:43 <raster> k-s: i was goign thru it and wincing.
May 22 12:47:47 <k-s> it can be so simple and so complex as we want... we need to make what we want clear... ie: will it do video thumbs?
May 22 12:47:52 <raster> SpeedEvil: u never know!
May 22 12:48:02 <raster> SpeedEvil:  but 272x480 in 3" is very very very nice
May 22 12:48:10 <k-s> if so, what will we spec? framerate? lenght?
May 22 12:48:28 <SpeedEvil> raster: I think personally, I'd like slightly larger - but that's a big ask in a phone.
May 22 12:48:43 <mickeyl> spyre: you got my intentions exactly
May 22 12:49:03 <mickeyl> spyre: GSM.SMS will be castrated to only the signal (incoming) and a way to send SMS on the fly (without storing on SIM)
May 22 12:49:14 <raster> its only 183dpi
May 22 12:49:16 <raster> not 385
May 22 12:49:18 <raster> err
May 22 12:49:19 <raster> 285
May 22 12:49:21 <mickeyl> spyre: i agree about ListMessages("category"), will do the necessary changes later today. thanks for reminidng
May 22 12:49:25 <raster> but still thats pretty damn nice
May 22 12:49:27 <spyre> mickeyl: I'm just writing an email to standards list about this ;)
May 22 12:49:31 <mickeyl> ok, great
May 22 12:49:38 <mickeyl> i'm a bit in hurry, today is public holiday in germany
May 22 12:49:41 <mickeyl> and I'm doing my taxes
May 22 12:49:42 <mickeyl> *sigh*
May 22 12:49:47 <raster> if u crammed the phone down to fit that screen so tis a small phone - whihc frankly is what most people want
May 22 12:49:49 <mickeyl> the downside of being a freelancer
May 22 12:49:55 <raster> not some big hulking behemoth like the gta01/02
May 22 12:50:04 <spyre> mickeyl: national day of doing taxes? ;)
May 22 12:50:15 <raster> it'd work out nicely
May 22 12:50:22 <mickeyl> spyre: haha, kind of :))
May 22 12:50:26 <SpeedEvil> raster: yeah - size means nastier packaging problems of course
May 22 12:50:38 <raster> of course
May 22 12:50:48 <raster> but the gta01/02 has a LOT of empty space in it
May 22 12:50:49 <raster> a LOT
May 22 12:50:52 <raster> comapred to most phones
May 22 12:51:03 <SpeedEvil> raster: you could gain lots if you delete the PCB, and just point-point wire it.
May 22 12:51:07 <SpeedEvil> raster: :)
May 22 12:51:14 <raster> HAHAHAHAHHAHA
May 22 12:51:16 <raster> :-P~
May 22 12:51:21 <raster> wel seriously tho
May 22 12:51:28 <raster> under the screne is like 1mm of rubber padding
May 22 12:51:38 <raster> theres lots of plastic whitespace
May 22 12:51:44 <Zwiseli> strange, i have two gentoo machines, and bitbake stops on both at the same file: NOTE: Handling BitBake files: \ (4758/5405) [88 %]
May 22 12:51:49 <SpeedEvil> raster: Whitespace is structural.
May 22 12:52:08 <SpeedEvil> raster: 1cc of plastic is more rigid the more it approaches a sphere.
May 22 12:52:16 <raster> imho make a much slimmepr (width-wise) phone
May 22 12:52:24 <raster> and make it abotu as tall as the current neo
May 22 12:52:25 <zash> SpeedEvil: all components solderd to eachother instead of the board! 
May 22 12:52:27 <raster> but no rounded ends
May 22 12:52:33 <SpeedEvil> raster: buttins?
May 22 12:52:48 <raster> and yes
May 22 12:52:51 <raster> add buttons on the ends
May 22 12:53:00 <raster> if i had my way i'd suggest adding them on both bottom and top
May 22 12:53:04 <raster> add a fair few
May 22 12:53:12 <SpeedEvil> Just clone a PSP.
May 22 12:53:13 <raster> so... it'd have about the same button and controlelr count as a psp
May 22 12:53:14 <SpeedEvil> :)
May 22 12:53:15 <raster> AHHAHAHA
May 22 12:53:17 <raster> jinx
May 22 12:53:29 <raster> since its the same resolution screen as a psp...
May 22 12:53:40 <XorA> psp micro would be fun
May 22 12:53:41 <raster> i wonder .. if we eventually got a good 3d chip in
May 22 12:53:48 <raster> we couldnt entice game makers to... do something fun
May 22 12:53:51 <SpeedEvil> How much was the above screen. I notice the PSP screen is about $5 in volume
May 22 12:53:56 <SpeedEvil> How much was the above screen. I notice the PSP screen is about $35 in volume
May 22 12:54:01 <XorA> and armv6's can emulate PS1 at full speed
May 22 12:54:02 <raster> i have no idea
May 22 12:54:23 <raster> but maybe a 6410 with its 3d chip
May 22 12:54:28 <raster> (if open)
May 22 12:54:33 <raster> could give a psp a run for its money
May 22 12:54:33 <SpeedEvil> raster: IMO, engineers without pricelists should be kept away from the design process.
May 22 12:54:38 <raster> actually it' likely thrash it
May 22 12:54:40 <raster> solidly
May 22 12:54:49 <Zwiseli> wtf? Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn.projects.openmoko.org:443'
May 22 12:55:00 <raster> SpeedEvil: i alwasy ask if its going to be reasonable
May 22 12:55:04 <raster> and i ewas told its a godo deal
May 22 12:55:08 <raster> cheaper than out 2.8" vga
May 22 12:55:12 <raster> by a fair bit
May 22 12:55:16 <raster> no idea the exact price
May 22 12:55:17 <raster> but less
May 22 12:55:19 <raster> and i ewas happy
May 22 12:55:28 <raster> as i thought it was a good comprimise between VGA and QVGA
May 22 12:55:35 <raster> smaller - but still good dpi
May 22 12:55:36 <spyre> mickeyl: sent
May 22 12:55:41 <SpeedEvil> raster: It probably is.
May 22 12:55:44 <raster> less grunt needed to drive it and fill it with pikshools
May 22 12:55:47 <XorA> you can read comics on psp screen
May 22 12:55:50 <raster> but enouhg to have fun with
May 22 12:56:05 <raster> and a "widescreen" is bonusly good when vertical for reading
May 22 12:56:10 <raster> and when turned around -0 great for movies
May 22 12:56:29 <raster> sao i was sitting ther e going "this.. actually.. makes.. me... HAPPY!"
May 22 12:56:34 <raster> i wasnt comprimising to an extreme
May 22 12:56:39 <raster> ie mega-high dpi is night
May 22 12:56:47 <raster> but u comprimise the abili8ty to fill it with good speed
May 22 12:56:54 <raster> (without a massively grunty gpu)
May 22 12:57:02 <SpeedEvil> And 6*10 fonts give a 80*25 term
May 22 12:57:04 <raster> so this was like the perfect middle-ground
May 22 12:57:22 <mickeyl> spyre: cool, thanks
May 22 12:57:51 <raster> SpeedEvil:  in landscape - with room to burn
May 22 12:57:58 <raster> ... if u have a physical kbd....
May 22 12:58:24 <SpeedEvil> Or a transparent overlay
May 22 12:58:43 <raster> sure
May 22 12:58:43 <SpeedEvil> Or handwriting or speech recognition.
May 22 12:58:51 <raster> if u can drag it aboive/below the term
May 22 12:58:53 * SpeedEvil ponders a lipreading phone.
May 22 12:59:04 <raster> so depending where your cursor is u just move it out of the way
May 22 12:59:15 <SpeedEvil> I've used - on GTA01 - xkbd with xterm
May 22 12:59:20 <zash> SpeedEvil: talking to a computer, wasnt that crap
May 22 12:59:22 <raster> tho i really want to address compositing once we have the ability to do it sanely
May 22 12:59:22 <SpeedEvil> worked OK actually.
May 22 12:59:31 <SpeedEvil> zash: lipreading - not voice
May 22 12:59:32 <raster> and that screen was the ticket to being able to do it - sanely
May 22 12:59:43 <raster> even on a 6400 with its basic "2d" i suspect its possible
May 22 12:59:54 <raster> its better than the glamo - and its a "uma" arch - fb in system ram
May 22 13:00:06 <raster> so software fallbacks dont take a massive hit as they have no video bus to contend with
May 22 13:01:04 <zash> SpeedEvil: diff yes, but probably similar in practice?
May 22 13:01:39 <SpeedEvil> zash: actually better
May 22 13:01:45 <raster> what do u guys think of closed-src for games?
May 22 13:01:46 <SpeedEvil> zash: at least for static use with good vision
May 22 13:01:54 <raster> like "its an acceptable exception" ?
May 22 13:02:02 <SpeedEvil> raster: if I can choose to buy it or not, no problem at all
May 22 13:02:17 <raster> (because its not an essential system component u rely on day to day but somehting u play for a while- get bored of, move on" ?
May 22 13:02:22 <raster> sure
May 22 13:02:24 <raster> alwasy the choice
May 22 13:02:26 <raster> always
May 22 13:02:34 <mjr> proprietary entertainment is something I do even sometimes buy
May 22 13:02:47 <XorA> I like Id softwares policy, a window to make money, then source release
May 22 13:02:48 <raster> just mulling if u could entice any of the games biz to port their stuff over
May 22 13:02:52 <zash> SpeedEvil: but, for bash || shell stuff?
May 22 13:03:02 <raster> XorA:  yeah. that soudns good to me
May 22 13:03:11 <SpeedEvil> I want to buy for my phone (well, I don't want - but if it's the only way they'd get done) - voice recognition - OCR - mapping
May 22 13:03:19 <mjr> I don't think anything for the phone would entice me sufficiently
May 22 13:03:21 <mjr> though
May 22 13:03:25 <SpeedEvil> zash: works just fine
May 22 13:03:33 <SpeedEvil> I view games like mp3
May 22 13:03:38 <XorA> we could have the only phone that runs quake3 arena :-)
May 22 13:03:39 <raster> mjr:  u got a psp?
May 22 13:03:52 <mjr> no
May 22 13:03:53 <raster> SpeedEvil:  same. its consumable media - except it ALSO happens to execute :)
May 22 13:04:08 <mjr> and yeah, what SpeedEvil said
May 22 13:04:09 <SpeedEvil> Sure you have source, but actually performing it can take some skill.
May 22 13:04:11 <raster> mjr:  aaah. cool things them is.
May 22 13:04:25 <raster> great for keping u amused on planes, trains, busses and otherise idle times
May 22 13:04:31 * mjr doesn't require much in the way of portable games
May 22 13:04:44 <raster> some peole dont
May 22 13:04:49 <raster> but the games industry aint small
May 22 13:04:57 <raster> a lot of people like entertainment
May 22 13:04:57 <raster> :)
May 22 13:05:20 <mjr> the free simple games like which om has shipped with are just fine for portable entertainment
May 22 13:05:22 <XorA> games are good when all your cpu's are at 100% waiting for qtopia to finish building
May 22 13:05:29 <mjr> though I do play the occasional ut2k4 at home
May 22 13:05:41 <zash> someone port frozen-bubble and the fr will sell like cake!
May 22 13:05:46 <zash> delicious cake
May 22 13:06:15 <zash> made of AWESOME
May 22 13:06:32 <SpeedEvil> The one problem I have with the smaller res screen is that nethack is marginal on it.
May 22 13:06:41 <SpeedEvil> :)
May 22 13:07:27 <zash> SpeedEvil: screew lipreading!
May 22 13:07:28 <zash> http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/22/researchers-develop-robotic-brain-computer-interface/
May 22 13:07:39 <zash> ;)
May 22 13:07:49 * SpeedEvil hammers 47 contacts into zashs skull.
May 22 13:08:42 <zash> hm, was the matrix scifi or prediction?
May 22 13:09:00 <zash> one wonders
May 22 13:12:14 <zash> hm, frozen-bubble on smallscreened device with accelerometers
May 22 13:12:37 <zash> tilt to aim, AUX to shoot?
May 22 13:13:08 <zash> also, tetris
May 22 13:14:55 <zash> multiplayer fb over bt?
May 22 13:18:00 <zash> mjr: ut2k4?
May 22 13:21:34 <XorA> zash: Unreal Tornament 2004
May 22 13:21:57 * zash knows, and owns it
May 22 13:22:11 * XorA fires a redeemer at zash
May 22 13:22:24 * zash shoots the redeemer with sniper
May 22 13:22:52 <malik1972> are u ok?
May 22 13:23:42 <Sup3rkiddo> Counter Strike FTW!
May 22 13:23:58 <zash> original ut > cs
May 22 13:24:03 <Sup3rkiddo> no its not
May 22 13:24:14 * Sup3rkiddo takes a desert eagle and head shots zash 
May 22 13:24:20 <malik1972> no, u are not ok
May 22 13:24:26 <emilis_info> qw
May 22 13:25:14 * XorA locks 6 homing rockets onto Sup3rkiddo 
May 22 13:25:29 <Sup3rkiddo> 6?!
May 22 13:25:33 <Sup3rkiddo> oboy
May 22 13:25:52 * Sup3rkiddo performs hara-kiri than die in the hands of XorA 
May 22 13:25:55 <malik1972> xora: any progress on an asu gta01 image?
May 22 13:26:02 * XorA hasnt gone to war in Unreal for ages
May 22 13:26:12 <XorA> malik1972: it boots, and e works
May 22 13:26:25 <Sup3rkiddo> XorA, got screenshots
May 22 13:26:27 <zash> someone port ut to openmoko!
May 22 13:26:34 <zash> also, starcraft
May 22 13:26:36 <malik1972> xora: that sounds good
May 22 13:26:46 <XorA> Sup3rkiddo: nope
May 22 13:26:55 <XorA> Sup3rkiddo: thats the communities job :-)
May 22 13:26:55 <Sup3rkiddo> XorA, scap it please?
May 22 13:26:59 <malik1972> xora: any problems u encountered
May 22 13:27:07 <XorA> Sup3rkiddo: there isnt enough flash to install scap
May 22 13:27:25 <Sup3rkiddo> ERROR: '/home/sudharsh/Projects/openmoko/openembedded/packages/linux/linux-openmoko_2.6.24+git.bb' failed, anyone getting this while make openmoko-devel-image
May 22 13:27:43 <Sup3rkiddo> looks like clobbering and starting afresh wasnt a good idea :/
May 22 13:29:54 <malik1972> xora: can you upload the image?
May 22 13:31:13 <XorA> malik1972: not in a sensible time
May 22 13:31:42 <malik1972> define sensible;-)
May 22 13:33:10 <XorA> malik1972: in a time before I get pissed off for a few hows using all my upstream bandwidth
May 22 13:34:30 <malik1972> ok
May 22 14:01:06 <josch> raster, well you "found" a 272x480 3" screen? for what? gta04?
May 22 14:01:17 <raster> yes
May 22 14:01:32 <josch> :/
May 22 14:01:33 <josch> okay
May 22 14:01:38 <raster> it was wedged between my toenails
May 22 14:01:42 <raster> brb
May 22 14:02:40 <mjr> well. as long as gta04 is umts ;]
May 22 14:03:58 <raster> and as promised.... back and stenchy
May 22 14:05:43 * XorA turns on the channel aircon
May 22 14:06:38 <theholyduck> this channel seems to have grown a bit since the last time i looked in here
May 22 14:06:39 <Dunedan> raster: 272x480 for gta04 is a bad joke, isn't it?
May 22 14:07:01 <theholyduck> its like.. its suddenly become,,, 
May 22 14:07:05 <theholyduck> popular?
May 22 14:07:21 <raster> Dunedan:  no? why?
May 22 14:08:20 <Dunedan> Why to step back from vga? The resolution of the displays of mobile phones/pdas is increasing, but gta04 should have less than the current models?
May 22 14:09:00 <raster> because lack of high end gpu to drive that many pixels
May 22 14:09:00 <XorA> the HTC phones are still QVGA
May 22 14:09:06 <raster> think of it this way
May 22 14:09:13 <XorA> they have gpu and no drivers though :-(
May 22 14:09:14 <raster> u can go around thinking that cars should just get faster
May 22 14:09:16 <raster> higher top speeds
May 22 14:09:23 <raster> but in fact there is more to the top speed
May 22 14:09:27 <raster> acceleration 0-100
May 22 14:09:31 <raster> or more practical
May 22 14:09:32 <raster> 0-60
May 22 14:09:36 <raster> things like handling
May 22 14:09:38 <raster> safety etc.
May 22 14:09:44 <raster> its NOT all a race to the top
May 22 14:09:46 <theholyduck> maintance?
May 22 14:09:51 <theholyduck> and fuel economy
May 22 14:09:52 <raster> MOST of you can't even see the dpi
May 22 14:10:01 <raster> i ahev seen people and their eyesight
May 22 14:10:17 <raster> that screen (2.8") is at the LIMIT of my own eyesight
May 22 14:10:23 <Dunedan> With closed-source-drivers it seems to be possible. Just look at the SE Xperia X1.
May 22 14:10:24 <raster> and i'm right at the top of the curve
May 22 14:10:29 * theholyduck is scared of when people will start using 3d displays
May 22 14:10:32 <raster> most peolpe see with much less fidelity
May 22 14:10:38 <raster> its like the mhz myth
May 22 14:10:52 <theholyduck> 3d displays are evil
May 22 14:10:54 <theholyduck> EVIl
May 22 14:10:54 <raster> "but come on a 3.4gzhz p4 - they wen DOWN to 2ghz for the core2!!"
May 22 14:10:56 <theholyduck> just saying
May 22 14:11:12 <theholyduck> raster, we all know that the more mhz = moar powaaar
May 22 14:11:16 <raster> Dunedan:  we are not doing closed
May 22 14:11:17 <theholyduck> TOTALLY MAN
May 22 14:11:21 <XorA> heh heh, its like people who grow up in the new digital world have worse hearing and eyesight than people who grew up in the analogue world
May 22 14:11:25 <raster> and there there is the problem of any drivers existing at all
May 22 14:11:27 <raster> open OR closed
May 22 14:11:32 <raster> also supply of chips and more
May 22 14:11:39 * theholyduck is bored
May 22 14:11:52 <Dunedan> the answer is simple: open. But vga seems to be possible atm with open-source-drivers. So why not in future?
May 22 14:12:11 <raster> dude - try and ANIMATE it
May 22 14:12:16 <raster> try and composite
May 22 14:12:20 <raster> do blending
May 22 14:12:28 <raster> do the kind of eefects u seeon the iphone
May 22 14:12:33 <raster> that peolpe keep pestering for
May 22 14:12:35 <raster> u CAN do it
May 22 14:12:36 <XorA> raster: DOES IT BLEND :-)
May 22 14:12:40 <raster> if u reduce the pixel count
May 22 14:12:58 <raster> and get some more grunt
May 22 14:13:00 <raster> XorA:  heheheh
May 22 14:13:15 <raster> vga is overkill
May 22 14:13:17 <raster> seriously
May 22 14:13:21 <raster> as i said
May 22 14:13:29 <raster> most people really cant SEE the pixels
May 22 14:13:34 <raster> they cant tell the difference
May 22 14:13:44 <SpeedEvil> Yes you can!
May 22 14:13:50 <raster> the vast majority would see even the 480x272 as blury and unable to read it
May 22 14:13:51 <SpeedEvil> The pixels are clearly visible at 5cm
May 22 14:14:32 <XorA> at 5cm I cant even focus on the screen
May 22 14:14:38 <XorA> its well inside my focus point :-)
May 22 14:14:38 <raster> HAHAHAHAH
May 22 14:15:32 <diego_at_work> except if you use navit ^^
May 22 14:15:45 <SpeedEvil> You need to get to at least 2* eye resolution before the resolution is irrelevant.
May 22 14:16:39 <SpeedEvil> (given adequate antialiasing)
May 22 14:18:41 <diego_at_work> seriously, gta01 rock when you run navit or other gps application (except for being quite slow :) )
May 22 14:19:00 <SpeedEvil> tangogps++
May 22 14:19:46 <mjr> would like route mapping though (yes yes, osm is suboptimal for that, anyway)
May 22 14:19:56 <diego_at_work> tangogps have a problem, without a gprs connection you need to download tons of of tiles 
May 22 14:19:57 <raster> the problem is the slowness
May 22 14:20:11 <raster> solve the slowness by putting up less pixels
May 22 14:20:20 <raster> up the cpu and mem bandwidth
May 22 14:20:34 <raster> then worry about higher res later when the processing power exists for it
May 22 14:20:53 <SpeedEvil> Scrolling can be done lots better using a virtual screen
May 22 14:21:33 <diego_at_work> with tangogps, scroll is quite fast and responsive
May 22 14:21:57 <SpeedEvil> yeah
May 22 14:24:51 <AzalynHD> I think a lot of people would be severely disappointed at 480x272 ... :\
May 22 14:25:03 <AzalynHD> and i don't think the cpu analogy is accurate.
May 22 14:25:52 <AzalynHD> i think whether or not people 'notice' the extra pixels will depend on the application in question.
May 22 14:27:26 <AzalynHD> I don't see why the GTA04 plan has to take a step backwards everywhere. Perhaps it would be better to see what people say about the freerunner when it launches, what features on it they like best.
May 22 14:27:29 <AzalynHD> And then see.
May 22 14:27:57 <AzalynHD> Even if the GPU is hard to use, maybe someone will come along and find a way to master it, after all, it is an open platform. So that possibility is there.
May 22 14:29:12 <SpeedEvil> It's not
May 22 14:29:31 <SpeedEvil> The graphics accelerator on GTA02 is in many ways a negative.
May 22 14:29:50 <SpeedEvil> It shares a very slow bus with the CPU, SD and graphics card.
May 22 14:29:59 <AzalynHD> yeah i know, i've heard the arguments..
May 22 14:30:02 <SpeedEvil> You can only use one thing at once. CPU, SD, or graphics card.
May 22 14:30:12 <SpeedEvil> And the accelerator on the GTA04 is better.
May 22 14:30:17 <SpeedEvil> (in principle)
May 22 14:30:24 <AzalynHD> I didn't know there was an accelerator.
May 22 14:30:27 <AzalynHD> for gta04
May 22 14:30:36 <SpeedEvil> it's builtin to the CPU
May 22 14:30:46 <AzalynHD> i thought they were just ditching the gpu altogether.
May 22 14:31:04 <SpeedEvil> it's builtin to the CPU, you can't ditch it - GTA02 uses a seperate chip
May 22 14:31:05 <AzalynHD> did they find an soc that had a good design?
May 22 14:31:11 <SpeedEvil> mostly
May 22 14:52:04 <juri_> thats a first. my openmoko died while plugged into USB.
May 22 14:53:01 <juri_> not even making a call. i *knew* it getting onto the gsm network the first boot was a bad sign.
May 22 14:54:14 <juri_> these charging issues are a mite bit annoying. any chance i can get an external charger for a GTA01 battery, so i can keep one charged, one in my bleeding-out openmoko?
May 22 14:55:06 <diego_at_work> it was a powered usb?
May 22 14:55:31 <juri_> yepyep. i used it to get enough charge to boot.. THEN it died, while still plugged in.
May 22 14:55:47 <juri_> i made two phone calls inbetween.
May 22 14:56:10 <juri_> and it drained itsself enough that i'm waiting for a trickle-charge again.
May 22 14:56:21 <SpeedEvil> Did you have usb-net module loaded?
May 22 14:56:26 <SpeedEvil> I mean cdc-ether
May 22 14:56:38 <juri_> by definition, yes.
May 22 14:56:49 <juri_> my debian box always has it loaded.
May 22 14:57:26 <juri_> this is with last night's kernel loaded onto it.
May 22 14:57:35 <diego_at_work> are you ssh connected with the gta01?
May 22 14:57:52 <SpeedEvil> ssh connection isn't important
May 22 14:58:08 <SpeedEvil> as long as the module is loaded and it's connected to a root hub or a powered hub
May 22 14:58:25 <juri_> right now, i'm just waiting for it to charge. to ssh, all i do is "ifdown usb0; ifup usb0; /etc/init.d/ipmasq restart; ssh 192.168.2.2"
May 22 14:58:28 <diego_at_work> no, but in this way you are sure that gta01 was recognized ^^
May 22 14:58:36 <juri_> (yes, i changed its address, to not conflict with my network.)
May 22 14:59:12 <juri_> my debian box has not had an upgrade in months. my openmoko got a opkg upgrade last night.
May 22 14:59:38 <juri_> and all it upgraded was kernel stuffs.
May 22 14:59:55 <juri_> ok, trickle charge got it to boot.
May 22 15:01:04 <juri_> here i was, waiting for an important phone call.
May 22 15:03:14 <juri_> ok, cdc_ether is loaded, the device 1457:5122 is visible via lsusb (as root), and usb0 is visible. lets see it do it again.
May 22 15:04:00 <juri_> actually.. first, reboot, as no gsm network..
May 22 15:04:08 <juri_> oh, there we go.
May 22 15:04:23 <juri_> it still says "registering" even tho its online.
May 22 15:04:42 <SpeedEvil> juri_: cat /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/battvolt
May 22 15:04:51 <diego_at_work> are you using neo for important phone call?
May 22 15:05:01 <juri_> on the openmoko, i presume?
May 22 15:05:18 <juri_> diego: i moved over to only using my openmoko a few weeks ago.
May 22 15:05:32 <juri_> and i'm job hunting. darwin at work. :)
May 22 15:07:00 <juri_> speed: 3691
May 22 15:07:54 <juri_> live by free software, die by free software, i say. :P
May 22 15:09:36 <diego_at_work> you should be hired as a betatester ^^
May 22 15:10:04 <juri_> i even used my openmoko to do my job interview with the FSF.
May 22 15:10:28 <mjr> :)
May 22 15:10:42 <mwester> juri_:  I've noticed this happening rather regularly.  If your GTA01 is suspending, it seems that resume does not always detect the USB and go to "fastcharge", but it also seems that at some random points even without suspend, it drops to the 100ma charge rate.
May 22 15:10:58 <mwester> I have done no further debugging to see what's happening...
May 22 15:11:07 <juri_> my GTA01 is set to "dim only, don't lock" to prevent suspension.
May 22 15:11:33 <juri_> suspend was killing my unit every time i set the thing down.
May 22 15:12:52 <mjr> I was surprised to have it actually come up from suspend. Didn't think to test the phone functionality before rebooting, though.
May 22 15:13:31 <juri_> i'm a heavy cell-phone user.
May 22 15:13:35 <mwester> mjr: mine regularly come out of suspend.
May 22 15:13:48 <mwester> And almost always can make and recieve phone calls and SMS
May 22 15:13:52 <diego_at_work> mine: 9 times on 10
May 22 15:13:59 <juri_> to be fair, the last time i tested suspend, was two kernel upgrades ago.
May 22 15:14:05 <mwester> (of course, I'm running a patched kernel)
May 22 15:14:26 * juri_ kicks mwester. submit to mainline!
May 22 15:15:05 <mwester> What parts of it are clean enough have been submitted.  Most but not all are in the current builds.
May 22 15:16:18 <mwester> There is a set of hacks that are beyond ugly; what to do with those depends on the response from OM regarding the GSM flow-control bugs.  If they confirm that the GSM itself does not flow-control properly but only in some cases, then perhaps another workaround is possible.
May 22 15:17:03 <juri_> and.. dialer crashes...
May 22 15:17:08 * XorA wishes he could lock the right set of people in a room and refuse to let them go until they worked that out
May 22 15:17:51 * diego_at_work think "there will be only one"
May 22 15:18:37 * mwester understands that there are other priorities at the moment, but wishes that a target date could be set for when further discussion could resume. 
May 22 15:19:14 <juri_> you would think support for the thousand-odd phones in the wild would be a priority. :)
May 22 15:19:47 <mwester> On a positive note, the GTA02 (perhaps because of the larger UART FIFO) does not seem to be affected.
May 22 15:19:52 <juri_> at least the "tick tick tick tick buzz buzz buzz buzz" when placing calls is gone.
May 22 15:20:16 <juri_> oh, so i get to spend ANOTHER $500 to get a phone that actually works this time? :P
May 22 15:20:58 <XorA> only $400
May 22 15:21:13 <diego_at_work> better: only $399
May 22 15:21:15 <juri_> (i can reuse my current jtag kit then?)
May 22 15:21:20 <XorA> juri_: yes
May 22 15:21:24 <juri_> oh good.
May 22 15:21:36 <juri_> i've only bricked this thing once.. but still. :)
May 22 15:21:40 <XorA> debug board didnt change enough to make it worth buying another
May 22 15:21:59 * XorA still has an old old debug board
May 22 15:25:12 <balrog-k1n> juri_: no, you get to spend $N to get a phone that only works better than GTA01
May 22 15:25:27 <balrog-k1n> it's still a development device and this one isn't going to be supported for long either
May 22 15:29:05 <SpeedEvil> mwester: yay (on 02)
May 22 15:31:22 <juri_> balrog: given that, i think i'll stick with my GTA01.
May 22 15:31:43 <juri_> theres obvious spots the software stack needs help.
May 22 15:32:35 <SpeedEvil> Hehe.
May 22 15:32:45 <SpeedEvil> There's a couple of spots it doesn't.
May 22 15:33:36 <juri_> the clock works. if i could figure out how to get ntpupdate thats on it to speak the udp protocol, or find a proper timeserver...
May 22 15:33:43 <balrog-k1n> juri_: but you'll be laughed at by everyone who got a gta02 :)
May 22 15:33:46 <SpeedEvil> I cheat.
May 22 15:34:00 <SpeedEvil> #!/bin/ash
May 22 15:34:01 <SpeedEvil> date `ssh 192.168.0.200  date "+%m%d%H%M%Y.%S"`
May 22 15:34:14 <mwester> You all worry too much -- the 01 will be supported; it'll just take a bit more community effort to make it so.
May 22 15:34:22 <juri_> balrog: i'm kinda used to that. after all, i'm the LAST developer of openmosix.
May 22 15:35:00 <juri_> worse, i'm good friends with a lot of the kernel development team... who spend their time berating me for working on openmosix, instead of things useful to them.
May 22 15:35:06 <juri_> i'm actually a bit bitter about that.
May 22 15:35:42 <balrog-k1n> :p
May 22 15:35:49 <balrog-k1n> juri_: so no success looking for more staff?
May 22 15:36:27 <juri_> negative. i've found two old developers, with personal issues against the old project leader. so the first thing i have to do is rename the project, per their request.
May 22 15:37:36 <juri_> i can't even get someone to review the documentation i've spent three months developing.
May 22 15:37:50 <juri_> </bitter> :P
May 22 15:39:23 <balrog-k1n> aww
May 22 15:40:06 <balrog-k1n> you should try to recruit Linus T.
May 22 15:40:29 <juri_> i don't like linus. :P
May 22 15:40:39 * juri_ is Free Software, not Open Source.
May 22 15:40:39 <balrog-k1n> he's probably bored with his current project already
May 22 15:40:55 <balrog-k1n> ah ok
May 22 15:40:58 <Qwell> balrog-k1n: his silly kernel?  That'll never take off :)
May 22 15:41:10 <juri_> it will take me years to forgive him for the bitkeeper fiasco.
May 22 15:41:46 <kdean06> I hear he's being groomed by Sun. ;)
May 22 15:41:49 <tessier_> juri_: How did the bitkeeper fiasco affect you?
May 22 15:41:54 <juri_> at least he eventually figgured it out. but it took andrew archelangi(sp?) to show him the light. IMO, AA, MM, and _A_ should take over. :P
May 22 15:42:23 <juri_> tessier:only politically.
May 22 15:42:42 <theholyduck> linux, a os divided?
May 22 15:42:54 <juri_> i spent the last ten years turning in my badge any time an employer asked me to use proprietary software. linus isn't up to my free software moral standards.
May 22 15:43:04 <balrog-k1n> Qwell: yeah, i don't think it even runs on my toaster
May 22 15:43:21 <juri_> needless to say, i've had a rough carreer. :)
May 22 15:43:41 <theholyduck> juri_, standing up for what you believe in eh?
May 22 15:44:30 <juri_> theholyduck: hense, why i'm using ONLY an openmoko. linux on my pda, linux on my phone, linux on my servers, linux on my laptops. now i need a linux-running digital camera.
May 22 15:44:55 * mjr wants a free camera too
May 22 15:45:07 <juri_> i feel like i'm fighting the tide, but as one guy said (oh so romantically, i might add), "at least one of us is trying."
May 22 15:45:36 <Qwell> juri_: You know the FreeRunner has proprietary bits in it too, right?
May 22 15:45:50 <Qwell> hardware stuff, gsm firmware..
May 22 15:45:52 * balrog-k1n hears the recent Cannon cameras can be reflashed with a free firmware
May 22 15:45:56 <balrog-k1n> it's a bit of a hack though
May 22 15:46:13 <juri_> qwell: i'm aware, i need to do a debian-style cleasing of my openmoko, and my pda. but its closer than just running a proprietary OS.
May 22 15:46:20 <balrog-k1n> but they make great pictures with this firmware
May 22 15:47:00 <mjr> the fr shouldn't need any proprietary bits on the om side, at least
May 22 15:47:04 <juri_> i'll start cleaning my house of proprietary bits, once i've got a new release of GNU GIFT, and openmosix.
May 22 15:47:08 <mjr> and gta01 only for gps
May 22 15:48:01 <mjr> (so is functional without)
May 22 15:48:20 <theholyduck> ROW ROW. FIGHT DA POwAH?
May 22 15:48:22 <theholyduck> anyone?
May 22 15:48:24 <SpeedEvil> There are 7 processors in GTA02. We can code for 1.
May 22 15:48:49 <mjr> anyway, that canon thing is interesting, have to look if I'll need a replacement for my pana
May 22 15:49:17 <mjr> not replacing for the sake of it since canon isn't involved ;P
May 22 15:49:22 <theholyduck> actually im planning on building myself a beast of a linux laptop
May 22 15:49:48 <theholyduck> tired of my old broken laptop
May 22 15:50:38 <theholyduck> i was amazed when i saw it actually. i didnt know you could get laptops with quadcores :P
May 22 15:50:40 <juri_> theholyduck: i'd recomend picking your components carefully. i managed to get a atheros chipset running on the new open source only drivers recently. yay! :)
May 22 15:50:56 <theholyduck> juri_, well this is a fully build your own laptop system :P
May 22 15:50:58 <juri_> now i can stop giving away madwifi cards. :)
May 22 15:51:16 <theholyduck> you get to chose all the hardware you want in it
May 22 15:51:17 <juri_> (and get rid of my pile of bcm43xx boards)
May 22 15:51:31 <theholyduck> so no matter what wifi card i want. i could get it :P
May 22 15:51:39 <theholyduck> but its a tad bit huge.
May 22 15:51:48 <theholyduck> you can fit 3 hardrives and a bluray burner in it
May 22 15:51:50 <theholyduck> if you wanted to :P
May 22 15:53:23 <juri_> well, it appears my openmoko is charging properly this time. thanks for the command line to check my battery charge. :)
May 22 15:53:53 <theholyduck> ah computer developement.
May 22 15:54:13 * theholyduck loooks dreamy for no apparent reason
May 22 15:54:40 <juri_> ah, free software developers.
May 22 15:54:46 * juri_ looks dreamy too. :P
May 22 15:55:04 <theholyduck> :P
May 22 15:56:20 <theholyduck> im not requring 100% free software
May 22 15:56:26 <theholyduck> like i run mplayer/mencoder.
May 22 15:56:32 <theholyduck> and thats not completely free
May 22 15:56:39 <theholyduck> when you got w32codecs atleast
May 22 16:10:31 <kdean06> Where do I find the latest ASU images, or must I build one myself?
May 22 16:10:52 <balrog-k1n> at downloads.o.o i think
May 22 16:11:32 <kdean06> Ah, good. The Quickstart is a bit behind. :S
May 22 16:11:43 <kdean06> Thanks balrog-k1n 
May 22 16:14:42 <malik1972> kdean06: i guess http://downloads.openmoko.org/asu/
May 22 16:15:17 <tessier_> So, can I buy a Frerunner yet?
May 22 16:15:25 <kdean06> malik1972, I've got it, thanks.
May 22 16:16:34 <malik1972> kdean06: what is your intention with the images, do u have a freerunner?
May 22 16:17:06 <kdean06> malik1972, Yes.
May 22 16:17:52 <malik1972> kdean06: okay
May 22 16:21:13 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03olv 07org.openmoko.dev * r8350ec766e73 10/packages/openmoko-projects/diversity-maps-providence_20080430.bb: [diversity] Add another map file
May 22 16:21:14 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03ich 07org.openmoko.dev * r0225e8064ac8 10/packages/openmoko-projects/diversity-maps-taipei_20080430.bb: [diversity] Bump the PR as olv changed the upstream http file...
May 22 16:22:15 <Qwell> kdean06: they seem less hurlable.
May 22 16:22:37 <kdean06> ?
May 22 16:22:43 <Qwell> the freerunner
May 22 16:22:53 <kdean06> "Less" compared to what?
May 22 16:22:58 <Qwell> 1973
May 22 16:23:06 <kdean06> Why so?
May 22 16:23:07 <Qwell> or a brick
May 22 16:23:17 <Qwell> lighter.  weight seems great
May 22 16:23:20 <kdean06> lol
May 22 16:23:33 <kdean06> I like the fading in and out. I'd prefer to preserve that. :D
May 22 16:24:24 <malik1972> are there more screenshots from asu? and what about the asu flash animation
May 22 16:25:16 <malik1972> d/more/
May 22 16:25:32 <mwester> kdean06:  the fade is definitely a nice feature.  It should be possible to backport or to do an equivalent on the neo1973, though.
May 22 16:25:43 <Qwell> fade?
May 22 16:26:03 <kdean06> mwester, Is that an X thing, or a power management or... ?
May 22 16:26:22 <kdean06> I figured it was hardware, since it does it on uBoot.
May 22 16:26:23 <mwester> Qwell: The display doesn't go from 0 to full brightness at once.
May 22 16:26:28 <Qwell> oh, right
May 22 16:27:15 <mwester> kdean06:  It could be hardware on the 02, but I think not.  Regardless, we can probably mimic the effect in software.
May 22 16:27:47 <mwester> It adds a touch of "completeness" and "polish" to the device... quite nice.
May 22 16:27:51 <kdean06> malik1972, I'll be dropping screenshots and video of ASU, as well as beginning my daily reviews of it "soon"... Within the next few days and perhaps as early as tonight.
May 22 16:27:59 <kdean06> Right, definitely.
May 22 16:28:20 <malik1972> kdean06: url?
May 22 16:28:30 <kdean06> I'm not sure if it will survive to cunsumer devices, but my wife loved the black box and foam. :)
May 22 16:28:49 <kdean06> malik1972, Assuming it workes properly, just check planet.openmoko.org, It should be syndicated on there.
May 22 16:29:04 <malik1972> kdean06: thanx
May 22 16:30:18 <kdean06> Once I begin the reviews, I'll make daily reports on the device-owners mailing list as well, though I'm going to have to seriously re-evaluate my testing system for this, with the new hardware and new software stack, so pictures and general impressions will come first.
May 22 16:30:41 <kdean06> And, for the record, I plan to still review ASU on the Neo1973 once it's building. :D
May 22 16:30:59 <kdean06> errr, booting. :) It builds and gets to Exquisite. :)
May 22 16:33:20 <k-s> is it using exquisite already?
May 22 16:33:24 <k-s> kdean06: ?
May 22 16:36:29 <kdean06> Sorry...
May 22 16:36:50 <kdean06> I THINK it's exquisite. Perhaps I'm wrong. The boots boot would be exquisite, no?
May 22 16:37:25 <k-s> i dunno, I know raster did it, but didn't know he added it to OM, if so: COOL
May 22 16:37:48 <k-s> mine is at home/brazil, i'll install it as soon as i get there
May 22 16:38:24 <XorA|gone> kdean06: it is
May 22 16:38:43 <k-s> XorA|gone: cool
May 22 16:38:49 <kdean06> Yeah. The 'SPANK SPANK SPANK" errors clued me in to it being another of Raster's brain children.
May 22 16:38:50 <k-s> kdean06: post of video of that too
May 22 16:38:58 <k-s> kdean06: lol
May 22 16:39:18 <k-s> kdean06: my company will do t-shirts with that to distribute at events/conferences
May 22 16:39:39 * SpeedEvil ponders a 'paddle' case.
May 22 16:39:51 <SpeedEvil> It's got the integrated accelerometers already to keep score.
May 22 16:39:58 <kdean06> :)
May 22 16:40:26 <CM> SpeedEvil: Heh, would be kind of cool with the gps and all
May 22 16:40:43 <CM> speed, frequency and location ;)
May 22 16:41:04 <kdean06> k-s, There's a Flash demo of the ASU around, if you've got Flash.
May 22 16:41:20 <k-s> not yet
May 22 16:41:36 <kdean06> I'll take soem video tonight then. :)
May 22 16:43:05 <k-s> did someone try to run canola on OM?
May 22 16:43:33 <Qwell> k-s: yes, but I misread the instructions - the 1973 isn't oil resistant.
May 22 16:43:42 <k-s> lol
May 22 16:44:12 <k-s> btw: canola is god of music in some weird mythology
May 22 16:45:09 <kdean06> Not the most attractive of navigations. :)
May 22 16:45:33 <k-s> kdean06: ?
May 22 16:45:49 <k-s> canola itself, it on om devices
May 22 16:45:56 <kdean06> ASU.
May 22 16:46:04 <k-s> ah
May 22 16:46:06 <kdean06> The navigation menu has no icons.
May 22 16:46:12 <kdean06> WEll, very few of them.
May 22 16:50:14 <roh>  .oO(i wonder if displaying a stunt bonus on the OM after a hard and twisty movement ending in a high-g impact would be considered offensive)
May 22 16:50:31 <SpeedEvil> :)
May 22 16:51:16 <roh> propably one is directly assumed to be GTA-player *ducks*
May 22 16:51:24 <theholyduck> roh, well it would be lulzy
May 22 16:51:31 <theholyduck> but like.. imagine if you're in a carcrash
May 22 16:51:33 <theholyduck> or something
May 22 16:51:42 <theholyduck> and then the phone lies outside the car
May 22 16:51:45 <theholyduck> STUNT BONUS!
May 22 16:51:57 <roh> theholyduck depends on the fun-understanding of the finder
May 22 16:52:15 <roh> i was in one once, and my phone was only on half-way.. it somehow froze
May 22 16:52:24 <theholyduck> :P
May 22 16:52:33 * SpeedEvil has a node in openstreetmap tagged 'oops'.
May 22 16:52:48 <SpeedEvil> Where I departed the road at some 35MPH, decellerating at 1.6G
May 22 16:53:11 <theholyduck> this 1 time. i managed to break some ribs and stuff
May 22 16:53:14 <theholyduck> on a bicycle
May 22 16:53:19 <roh> wouldn have wondered reading something like that.. but hey.. atleast nobody got seriosly or permanently injured.. besides the car. that was a cube a few days later
May 22 16:53:21 <SpeedEvil> Ow.
May 22 16:53:28 <SpeedEvil> Mine too.
May 22 16:53:41 <theholyduck> i was cycling high speed down a gravel road
May 22 16:53:41 <SpeedEvil> And I'd just gotten the wheel rev sensors installed
May 22 16:53:51 <theholyduck> and as i hit the asphalt road
May 22 16:53:54 <SpeedEvil> (gutted USB mice)
May 22 16:54:02 <theholyduck> that is going in another direction
May 22 16:54:54 <theholyduck> so i had to change the direction i was traveling
May 22 16:54:54 <theholyduck> but apperently...
May 22 16:54:54 <theholyduck> there was ice outside
May 22 16:54:54 <theholyduck> so when hit the asphalt and was turning at high speed
May 22 16:54:54 <theholyduck> i just flew directly across the entire road
May 22 16:54:54 <theholyduck> and into a tree
May 22 16:54:54 <roh> we flew of a autobahn and the cops asked if anybody was injured and asked for driving and flying license after hearing the answer
May 22 16:54:54 <roh> was not funny at all back then. we were quite disturbed anyways
May 22 16:55:21 <SpeedEvil> 'minor' accidents can seem a hell of a lot less minor when you're inside.
May 22 16:55:21 <roh> btw.. renault has cool airbags and the 3-point belt for the 5th seat (back row, in the middle) is really cool.
May 22 16:55:32 <SpeedEvil> (minor, as in no major injuries)
May 22 16:55:47 <theholyduck> SpeedEvil, i was in a major fire once
May 22 16:55:50 <theholyduck> i thought it was pretty fun
May 22 16:55:54 <theholyduck> as in inside
May 22 16:56:32 <theholyduck> back when i was 13.
May 22 16:56:41 <SpeedEvil> Did you light it?
May 22 16:56:46 <theholyduck> SpeedEvil, by accident yeah
May 22 16:56:50 <theholyduck> i was making food.
May 22 16:56:53 <SpeedEvil> Oops.
May 22 16:56:55 <theholyduck> and i turned away for 2 minutes
May 22 16:56:57 <SpeedEvil> Was hot oil involved?
May 22 16:57:01 <theholyduck> oil lit on fire
May 22 16:57:06 <theholyduck> i put the lid on the burning oi
May 22 16:57:08 <theholyduck> *oil
May 22 16:57:17 <theholyduck> but at that time. the ventilator thingy was already on fire
May 22 16:57:57 <theholyduck> so i call the firedepartment while i run for the fire extinguisher and tell my litle sister to get out of the house.
May 22 16:58:15 <theholyduck> but i couldnt put it out. and had to jump out a window
May 22 16:58:47 <SpeedEvil> :/
May 22 16:59:19 <theholyduck> no parents in the house
May 22 16:59:39 <theholyduck> but i honestly thought it was one of the more interesting experiences in my life
May 22 17:00:26 <SpeedEvil> Interesting, sure :)
May 22 17:01:23 <theholyduck> MAJOR adrenaline rush
May 22 17:01:23 <SpeedEvil> you have to tell the server to do that.
May 22 17:01:26 <SpeedEvil> oops
May 22 17:01:38 <theholyduck> but since then. i've lived the booring life of a computer nerd
May 22 17:01:49 <theholyduck> "boring"
May 22 17:13:50 <malik1972> thd: how old are u?
May 22 17:15:57 <ixs> nevening.
May 22 17:16:19 <theholyduck> malik1972, 17 now
May 22 17:16:28 <ixs> what's actually the status of gta01 devices? they still "supported" or ripe for trash?
May 22 17:17:59 <kdean06> There are people who own the Neo1973 so it's not trash. :) But I don't think it's getting official support at this moment, and I'm not sure it actually will. :S
May 22 17:18:18 <kdean06> I do know that getting ASU working on the 01 isn't a priority of Om Inc.
May 22 17:19:19 <malik1972> theholyduck: be patient, life ist not boring
May 22 17:20:04 <theholyduck> malik1972, booring for others, not me
May 22 17:21:26 <malik1972> thd: thats fine
May 22 17:22:48 <mmontour> Argh - NOTE: package linux-openmoko-1_2.6.24+git20080522-r0: task do_fetch: failed
May 22 17:30:07 <ixs> kdean06: I have a GTA01. So I'd actually love to see it somewhat working correctly.
May 22 17:31:29 <kdean06> I do too. :) I spent good money on it, so I'd be quite happy if it got more than 6 months of use. :)
May 22 17:34:00 <ixs> my point exactly.
May 22 17:34:16 <ixs> I'd actually be severly disappointed to see money wasted on the device.
May 22 17:34:39 <mwester> I have a couple of GTA01's + the debug board -- we will make it work.  OM has other priorities right now, and I think that they will not undertake the initiative -- but if we (the community) spearhead an effort to make the 01's functional, I suspect that OM will assist us in that effort.  They have done so to date for the suspend/resume stuff.
May 22 17:41:12 <theLichKing> how can i buy an openmoko?
May 22 17:41:59 <mmontour> theLichKing: eBay/Craigslist, or wait for Freerunner to be released (see topic)
May 22 17:42:36 <theLichKing> is the freerunner a new and improved version of neo?
May 22 17:43:18 <Bumbl> theLichKing: yes the freerunner is the way to go
May 22 18:19:48 <tomboy64> mhmmm
May 22 18:19:55 <tomboy64> 346 idlers in this room alone ...
May 22 18:20:06 <tomboy64> looks like fic will get rich with openmoko
May 22 18:20:17 <tomboy64> cause *every* linux geek will want one :-D
May 22 18:20:33 <summatusmentis> well, if it works, everyone will want one
May 22 18:20:51 <summatusmentis> if I had decent gsm coverage, I'd wait until the software were fully workable
May 22 18:21:01 <mjr> depends really. There are other Linux-based contenders coming up, and some don't care much for freedom...
May 22 18:22:40 <theholyduck> well the android phones arent all that bad
May 22 18:22:41 <theholyduck> methinks
May 22 18:23:07 <summatusmentis> noone's actually seen one
May 22 18:23:10 <mjr> depends how they will turn out
May 22 18:23:13 <theholyduck> well yeah.
May 22 18:23:16 <theholyduck> but the IDEA of android
May 22 18:23:21 <theholyduck> and promises of the platform
May 22 18:23:23 <theholyduck> is not that bad
May 22 18:23:38 <summatusmentis> meh, it's all closed on top isn't it?
May 22 18:23:44 <summatusmentis> like, there's a linux base
May 22 18:23:45 <theholyduck> naw
May 22 18:23:50 <theholyduck> you can replace just about any app
May 22 18:23:55 <theholyduck> in android
May 22 18:24:01 <summatusmentis> but only w/ java apps
May 22 18:24:02 <Qwell> if you know java
May 22 18:24:14 <theholyduck> summatusmentis, like the main menu :P
May 22 18:24:20 <theholyduck> or just about anything else
May 22 18:24:38 <summatusmentis> theholyduck: right, but it's only java?
May 22 18:24:38 <Qwell> theholyduck: but not drivers or anything like that
May 22 18:24:40 <theholyduck> this guy i know is working on a augmented reality system for the android platform
May 22 18:24:41 <kdean06> I see that Freerunner does "USB Host mode". Am I correct in assuming that a practical application of that is that it could read a USB based device, such as a thumb drive? Or does "USB Host mode" means something more specific?
May 22 18:24:52 <theholyduck> kdean06, it could
May 22 18:24:59 <mjr> kdean06, yes
May 22 18:25:05 <summatusmentis> needs power?
May 22 18:25:11 <Qwell> host mode can also provide power
May 22 18:25:12 <theholyduck> the freerunner has power
May 22 18:25:14 <Qwell> I think..
May 22 18:25:19 <summatusmentis> oh really?
May 22 18:25:21 <summatusmentis> that's cool
May 22 18:25:21 <theholyduck> yeah
May 22 18:25:22 <mjr> it does
May 22 18:25:26 <theholyduck> but you drain your battery
May 22 18:25:31 <theholyduck> by powering the usb device
May 22 18:25:34 <Qwell> theholyduck: sure
May 22 18:25:37 <mjr> yeah, you don't want to use too much of it
May 22 18:25:38 <summatusmentis> well, yeah
May 22 18:25:49 <mjr> but if you just need to copy some files, it oughta be fine
May 22 18:25:56 <summatusmentis> but a thumb drive would be easy enough
May 22 18:26:07 <Qwell> something like that would require trivial amounts of power
May 22 18:26:15 <theholyduck> or hooking it up to your external hardrive since it has its own power
May 22 18:26:20 <Qwell> however, your cool USB lava lamp might take a little more :)
May 22 18:26:37 <theholyduck> i ought to get one of those actually
May 22 18:26:44 <theholyduck> i killed all my usb ports
May 22 18:26:48 <theholyduck> in terms of signal
May 22 18:26:50 <theholyduck> but not power
May 22 18:26:59 <theholyduck> so i had to buy a pci card with usb ports
May 22 18:27:32 <theholyduck> i got loads of usb ports with only power ;(
May 22 18:44:51 <tomboy64> is there a good navigational operation-ready software for the freerunner yet?
May 22 18:46:08 <rtm> I don't think so.   There's a GPS-enabled map display program called tangoGPS, but it does not ffind routes, etc.
May 22 19:22:07 <tushyd> is there a camera port on the mainboard? I wanted to see if I could add a camera easily
May 22 19:22:13 <tushyd> (freerunner)
May 22 19:22:51 <summatusmentis> not that I know of
May 22 19:24:19 <tushyd> damn
May 22 19:24:49 <mwester> Add a USB webcam.
May 22 19:25:06 <josch> or a bt cam
May 22 19:25:16 <mwester> That's an even better idea.
May 22 20:23:29 <Bumbl> would it be theoretically possible to add an umts usb modem/stick through the openmokos usb port?
May 22 21:27:35 <wurp2> holy crap there are a lot of people in here now
May 22 21:28:04 <Blastur> wtb freerunner
May 22 21:29:28 <wurp2> Is anyone using my checkFastCharge daemon?
May 22 21:29:53 <wurp2> I have made some updates, and my updated version seems to crap out when I run it in init
May 22 21:30:02 <wurp2> But it runs fine when I start it up after neo is up
May 22 21:30:38 <wurp2> I never had that problem with the version I released, but there have also been many updates to the image since then, so I dunno if it's my code or dist updates
May 22 21:31:12 <wurp2> (btw, checkFastCharge is that thing that pops up a gui asking if you want to do fast charge when you plug in a non-usb charger)
May 22 21:49:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r4fe460103faa 10/ (8 files in 3 dirs): 
May 22 21:49:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: python-ophoned: remove first idea of Call abstraction, implement 2nd idea. outgoing calls looking good
May 22 21:49:44 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: now.
May 22 21:50:30 * rwhitby will be away helping lead a scout camp this weekend - mwester, XorA|gone and mickeyl all have access to modify MokoMakefile if required.
May 22 21:50:52 <mickeyl> sounds good, have fun!
May 22 21:51:14 <mickeyl> my weekend will be occupied with taxes :/
May 22 21:51:53 <mwester> Taxes not aligned with calendar year for you, then?
May 22 21:52:07 * emonkey waves to rwhitby, hello scout buddy
May 22 21:53:31 * rwhitby does the scout handshake with emonkey 
May 22 21:53:39 <emonkey> *shake* :)
May 22 21:54:36 <mickeyl> mwester: nope, due 31th of May, and since I leave next week for LinuxTag, this weekend is the last chance to get it done :/
May 22 21:54:50 * emonkey hast the same problem
May 22 21:54:53 <mickeyl> of course i could have done it earlier *cough*
May 22 21:55:03 <rwhitby> where's the fun in that?
May 22 21:55:04 <emonkey> same here :P
May 22 21:55:41 <wurp2> Every year I think "*this* year I'm gonna get my taxes done early"
May 22 21:55:44 <emonkey> fun? I think there are rarely nobody who has fun with taxes
May 22 21:55:58 * rwhitby has tax return for July 2006 to June 2007 due in two weeks.
May 22 21:56:06 <emonkey> wurp2, ou yeah your so da** right
May 22 21:56:24 <wurp2> Taxes are even more fun when you haven't been paying in, so instead of thinking you might get a check, you *know* you're writing a big fat check.
May 22 21:57:08 <emonkey> ok that's true
May 22 21:57:11 <wurp2> undergound (I guess it's Zad, now?) seems to be coming along nicely
May 22 21:58:00 <wurp2> Is there anything resembling a console for it?  That's my only hang-up keeping me from jumping to it...
May 22 21:58:17 <wurp2> I guess it would be pretty easy to whip up a python terminal for it if there isn't one
May 22 21:58:30 <mickeyl> well, you could use the openmoko terminal
May 22 21:58:37 <mickeyl> or any other vte-term
May 22 21:58:44 <mickeyl> or xterm, if you like :)
May 22 21:58:49 <mickeyl> does not _need_ to be python
May 22 21:58:55 <wurp2> OK, I wasn't sure if there were conflicting things in the sw stack for that
May 22 21:59:22 <wurp2> I have only a vague notion of how the sw stack for underground relates to OM
May 22 21:59:31 <mickeyl> i can imagine
May 22 21:59:36 <wurp2> It sounds as if at least opkg support is there ;-)
May 22 21:59:36 <mickeyl> there's a ton of activity now
May 22 22:00:02 <wurp2> so presumably stuff will either install, gimme an error message, or totally jack my system
May 22 22:00:03 <mickeyl> not everything Om triggered, but we keep a close eye on it
May 22 22:00:12 <mickeyl> about right, ya
May 22 22:00:30 <wurp2> I guess I have a project for the weekend, then
May 22 22:00:38 <mickeyl> no seriously, i for one can't live without a terminal. as soon as I'm done releasing the first zhone (framework-testing) images, i want a terminal as well
May 22 22:00:49 <wurp2> Is there someplace for me to look to see how to e.g. add an icon or other startup trigger for the stuff I install
May 22 22:01:09 <mickeyl> unfortunately not, i'm afraid emdete did not add docs yert
May 22 22:01:13 <wurp2> OK
May 22 22:01:34 <wurp2> I think I looked through pyneog or whatever it's called and it seemed fairly straightforward
May 22 22:01:39 <mickeyl> yep
May 22 22:01:42 <rwhitby> what's the elevator pitch for this underground image?  I added it to MokoMakefile but have no idea what it is ...
May 22 22:02:21 <mickeyl> see http://neo1973-germany.de/wiki/Zad
May 22 22:02:41 <mickeyl> Zad is more or less emdete's phone vision
May 22 22:02:50 <mickeyl> so he concentrates on stuff he needs
May 22 22:03:04 <wurp2> Can one suspend & resume w/ Zad by default?
May 22 22:03:17 <mickeyl> no idea, didn't look for a while 
May 22 22:03:20 <wurp2> k
May 22 22:03:26 <mickeyl> try to catch emdete tomorrow
May 22 22:03:30 <mickeyl> he'll answer everything
May 22 22:03:31 <mickeyl> :)
May 22 22:03:35 <wurp2> k, thanks
May 22 22:03:37 <mickeyl> np
May 22 22:03:55 <wurp2> btw, anyone who is using AT&T to try to get gprs access, I finally found the problem in mine & updated the wiki page for it
May 22 22:05:19 <rwhitby> I presume org.openmoko.dev is used for Zad - does it build for both GTA01 and GTA02?
May 22 22:06:18 <mickeyl> it should, yes
May 22 22:06:38 <mickeyl> although now that i'm more towards zhone, there's no one really taking care it builds
May 22 22:06:54 <mickeyl> should pester emdete to take more care about other potentially wanting to help
May 22 22:07:09 <rwhitby> ok, now what's "zhone" ?
May 22 22:07:54 <mickeyl> zhone is the bread-and-butter application exploiting / testing / promoting the new Om framework
May 22 22:07:57 <mickeyl> see my last blog entry
May 22 22:08:08 <mickeyl> there was even a screeny somewhere
May 22 22:09:06 <wurp2> Is there a relationship between zhone & Zad?
May 22 22:09:23 <mickeyl> yeah, sharing lots of technology
May 22 22:09:25 <mickeyl> gsm0710muxd
May 22 22:09:30 <mickeyl> python, gobject, dbus, EFL
May 22 22:09:32 <wurp2> I saw your blog entry but somehow missed the zhone term
May 22 22:09:43 <mickeyl> you're right
May 22 22:09:45 <mickeyl> it was kind of hidden
May 22 22:09:49 <rwhitby> yeah, me too
May 22 22:09:51 <mickeyl> in the link to the picture
May 22 22:09:55 <wurp2> K, so you guys use the same code for the python dbus stuff?
May 22 22:09:59 <mickeyl> http://www.vanille-media.de/images/zhone-0.0.0.png
May 22 22:10:04 <wurp2> well, the general dbus stuff
May 22 22:10:10 <mickeyl> same libraries
May 22 22:10:14 <wurp2> I presume some (much?) of it is python
May 22 22:10:19 <wurp2> I see
May 22 22:10:29 <mickeyl> unfortunately emdete and me have very different views of how APIs need to be designed
May 22 22:10:38 <mickeyl> initially we wanted to both use his pygsmd
May 22 22:10:42 <mickeyl> and additional services
May 22 22:10:44 <rwhitby> mickeyl: zhone will be developed in org.openmoko.dev branch, or somewhere else?
May 22 22:10:51 <mickeyl> rwhitby: git.freesmartphone.org
May 22 22:11:19 <mickeyl> i'm doing the framework and zhone for Openmoko, _but_
May 22 22:11:21 * rwhitby wonders whether he put the git site as a variable in mokomakefile ...
May 22 22:11:24 <mickeyl> i'm doing it for the OSS world
May 22 22:11:28 <mickeyl> think EZX
May 22 22:11:30 <mickeyl> think HTC
May 22 22:11:31 <mickeyl> etc.
May 22 22:11:43 <mickeyl> coming from OpenEZX, i still owe this project a working userland
May 22 22:11:47 <mickeyl> and this is what zhone will be
May 22 22:11:55 <stefan_schmidt> heh
May 22 22:11:56 <mickeyl> among other goals ;±
May 22 22:12:06 * stefan_schmidt smeels mickeyl's propaganda. ;)
May 22 22:12:09 <mickeyl> hehe
May 22 22:12:14 <stefan_schmidt> smell
May 22 22:12:22 <mickeyl> there you wake up :)
May 22 22:12:23 <wurp2> Time to go home
May 22 22:12:27 <rwhitby> does the word "zhone" mean anything?
May 22 22:12:31 <mickeyl> yes
May 22 22:12:34 <wurp2> have a good night/day/whatever it is wherever you are
May 22 22:12:37 <mickeyl> it's a word game
May 22 22:12:39 <mickeyl> based out of
May 22 22:12:40 <mickeyl> Zen
May 22 22:12:41 <mickeyl> and Phone
May 22 22:12:50 <mickeyl> undertitle: Beautiful, Simple, Elegant
May 22 22:13:04 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Just finished, more or less, my crypto homework.
May 22 22:13:09 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: good!
May 22 22:14:24 <mickeyl> as it stands, bug #1024 is really haunting me today :/
May 22 22:14:25 <rwhitby> mickeyl: git://git.freesmartphone.org/git/zhone.git ?
May 22 22:14:26 * stefan_schmidt pokes mickeyl to merge the zhone comment patch. The world needs more comments in code
May 22 22:14:28 <mickeyl> rwhitby: yep
May 22 22:14:42 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: agreed. will do tomorrow!
May 22 22:14:43 <rwhitby> mickeyl: fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
May 22 22:14:54 <mickeyl> eeks
May 22 22:14:57 <mickeyl> let me check the server
May 22 22:15:00 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: What's the best place for patches for fso?
May 22 22:15:20 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: fso mailing list until we decide on a bug / ticket tracker
May 22 22:15:40 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: So abuse the one for standards right now?
May 22 22:15:46 <mickeyl> yep
May 22 22:15:50 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Fine with me.
May 22 22:15:58 <mickeyl> i need to think more about where to put what on topic
May 22 22:16:04 <stefan_schmidt> Now I just need more time to produce patches. ;)
May 22 22:16:09 <mickeyl> yeah!
May 22 22:16:26 <mickeyl> right now priority is getting things done, we can think about beaurocratics if we have enough traffic :)
May 22 22:16:29 <mickeyl> s/if/when/
May 22 22:16:29 <apt> mickeyl meant: right now priority is getting things done, we can think about beaurocratics when we have enough traffic :)
May 22 22:16:38 <mickeyl> ~spell beaurocratic
May 22 22:16:41 <apt> possible spellings for beaurocratic: bureaucratic bureaucrat bureaucratize bureaucrats bureaucrat's
May 22 22:16:47 <mickeyl> ~botsnac
May 22 22:16:49 <mickeyl> ~botsnack
May 22 22:16:49 <apt> thanks, mickeyl
May 22 22:18:19 <rwhitby> mickeyl: is the git url I'm using correct, or a different path?
May 22 22:18:25 <mwester> So many repos, so many images, so many things to load onto devices... my head hurts just trying to keep them straight!
May 22 22:18:41 <rwhitby> mwester: that's why I write a makefile around the envelope
May 22 22:18:56 <rwhitby> cause I can't remember how to build things otherwise
May 22 22:19:01 <mwester> And that's how I keep them straight - I read the makefile!
May 22 22:19:55 <mickeyl> rwhitby: ah, it's wrong
May 22 22:19:57 <mickeyl> try
May 22 22:20:04 <mickeyl> git://git.freesmartphone.org:zhone.git
May 22 22:20:28 <rwhitby> git://git.freesmartphone.org/zhone.git worked
May 22 22:21:57 <mwester> mickeyl:  is that the source corresponding to the ASU code then?
May 22 22:22:48 <rwhitby> mwester: asu is org.openmoko.april-update
May 22 22:22:58 <rwhitby> (in git.openmoko.org)
May 22 22:23:02 <mickeyl> ASU has nothing to do with framework and zhone
May 22 22:23:41 <mickeyl> well, i should not say nothing
May 22 22:23:45 <mickeyl> it moves in that direction
May 22 22:24:07 <mwester> Ok.  Color me confused.  I'll sort it out yet.  
May 22 22:24:09 <mickeyl> and eventually we will probably try to inject the new framework below all that stuff
May 22 22:24:28 <mickeyl> to make it seemlessly cooperate
May 22 22:24:35 <mickeyl> seamlessly even
May 22 22:24:39 <mickeyl> heh
May 22 22:25:04 <mickeyl> well, there's a couple of teams in Openmoko
May 22 22:25:27 <mickeyl> one team is taking care about qtopia on X
May 22 22:25:29 <mickeyl> one team is working on exciting EFL apps
May 22 22:25:40 <mickeyl> one team is doing some solid ground, err... framework 
May 22 22:25:55 <mickeyl> ASU is the result of teams 1 and 2
May 22 22:26:02 <mickeyl> framework/zhone is the result of team 3
May 22 22:26:16 <mickeyl> eventually we will take the best parts of that mosaic
May 22 22:26:23 <mickeyl> to come to something that's strong and durable
May 22 22:26:45 <mwester> Ok.  The last part is important; branches that never merge amount to forks.
May 22 22:26:54 <mickeyl> full ACK
May 22 22:27:00 <mickeyl> right now, focus was on building a product
May 22 22:27:07 <mickeyl> that's why we did ASU
May 22 22:27:23 <mickeyl> in parallel, framework and zhone team work on more technical stuff in the background
May 22 22:27:32 <mickeyl> then we build the next product out of all that
May 22 22:27:40 <mickeyl> improving ASU
May 22 22:27:49 <mickeyl> that's how i view it
May 22 22:28:16 <mwester> My immediate goals are to work on the GSM and suspend/resume stuff; so it would seem that I need to work on ASU, but the other project will probably replace that low-level stuff.
May 22 22:28:45 <mickeyl> well, my work is above kernel and below apps
May 22 22:28:52 <mickeyl> i'm 100% relying on you!
May 22 22:29:00 <mickeyl> we _need_ to fix the GSM suspend/resume
May 22 22:29:05 <mickeyl> otherwise all my shiny gsm daemon is void ;)
May 22 22:29:48 <mickeyl> I know a great deal about Linux, but I never did anything substantial in kernel
May 22 22:30:00 <mwester> Well, we probably need to discuss how the interactions should work during suspend/resume.  So I should find the docs for that project and familiarize myself with what's going on there.
May 22 22:30:01 <mickeyl> and honestly... i don't want to go that far. I'm a middleware/userland guy
May 22 22:30:12 <mickeyl> right
May 22 22:30:16 <mickeyl> my plan is like that
May 22 22:30:22 <mickeyl> surviving linuxtag
May 22 22:30:30 <mickeyl> finishing up the first bits of daemons
May 22 22:30:43 <mickeyl> releasing that as fso-testing-image 0.1.0
May 22 22:31:32 <mickeyl> i will come up with an interaction picture how i see gsm suspend/resume asap
May 22 22:31:36 <mickeyl> give me a couple of days
May 22 22:31:57 <mwester> Excellent.
May 22 22:38:40 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r94976a58d277 10/ophoned/ (gsm/mediator.py objects.py): 
May 22 22:38:40 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: python-ophoned: incoming calls OK, rejecting calls OK, hanging up OK.
May 22 22:38:40 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: NOTE: ignoring index-parameter for now, not dealing with multiple calls.
May 22 22:38:43 <mickeyl> g'night
May 22 22:39:06 * rwhitby stumbles at the edje_cc dependency for zhone, and puts it on the "look at it later" pile ...
May 22 22:39:25 <rwhitby> it needs a makefile around it ;-)
May 22 22:40:45 * mwester googles edje_cc
May 22 22:43:35 <rwhitby> OE builds it I expect
May 22 22:46:39 <rwhitby> Is http://monochromementality.com/ down for anyone else (Kevin Dean
May 22 22:46:44 <rwhitby> 's web site)
May 22 22:48:24 <cyrilRomain> rwhitby: seems to be down yes
May 22 22:50:52 <hiciu> hmm... on qemu, with lastest makefile i'm getting "no space left on device"
May 22 22:51:04 <hiciu> (sorry for my english)
May 22 22:53:57 <rwhitby> hiciu: which device and which image?
May 22 22:54:16 <rwhitby> I know XorA|gone was working on one image that was too big for the rootfs ...
May 22 22:56:12 <hiciu> how i can check it? I done: make update-makefile && make update qemu and i've got this: http://hiciu.rootnode.net/2008-05-23-005153_480x640_scrot.png
May 22 23:20:11 <hiciu> rwhitby: image "Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20080522-om-gta01.rootfs.jffs2", in qemu commandline device is gta01
May 22 23:21:00 <rwhitby> hiciu: If I remember correctly, that is the combination that XorA|gone was working on, cause the qtopia-x11 rootfs was too big for gta01
May 22 23:22:07 <hiciu> rwhitby: ok, thx
May 22 23:26:25 <Psi> what does the flashing floppy disk icon mean?  freespace?
May 22 23:27:16 <Vegar> your sim card is full
May 22 23:27:22 <Vegar> or the onboard flash
May 22 23:29:11 <Psi> 2.8MB free on rootfs
May 22 23:36:09 <rwhitby> ScaredyCat: are you building om-gta02 scaredycat images?
May 22 23:47:18 * ljp wonders that too
May 22 23:47:35 <Psi> does he have a gta02 tho?
May 22 23:48:05 <ljp> if not, he should
May 23 00:20:15 <rwhitby> ljp: yeah, I agree that ScaredyCat should get a GTA02
May 23 00:20:34 <rwhitby> XorA|gone, mickey|zzZZzz: ^^
May 23 00:37:16 <theLichKing> wow.. they're giving away 10 million dollars for the best application on android
May 23 00:37:25 <theLichKing> that's a lot
May 23 00:39:28 <Vegar> it's gonna attract a lot of applications too
May 23 00:40:07 <theLichKing> sure.. high quality applications too
May 23 00:47:06 <Outlander> so android is a competitor to openmoko or android could run on open hardware too?
May 23 00:49:10 <theLichKing> i wouldn't say a competitor because openmoko sells phones
May 23 00:49:19 <theLichKing> android is just a platform
May 23 00:50:02 <theLichKing> but i think you can think of android and the openmoko OS as two linux distributions?
May 23 00:52:23 <nab> theLichKing: Its more 2 different APIs
May 23 00:52:32 <nab> The linux userspace is very similar I would imagine
May 23 00:52:37 <nab> busybox and/or uclibc
May 23 00:52:39 <nab> er
May 23 00:52:49 <nab> busybox with glibc or uclibc
May 23 00:52:51 <SpeedEvil> There are many linux based phones.
May 23 00:53:10 <nab> Actually, the anaroid one uses alot of Java stuff for API I believe
May 23 00:53:24 <SpeedEvil> OpenMoko is one of the few that are intended to be open-source.
May 23 00:53:24 <nab> SpeedEvil: <nod>
May 23 00:53:42 <nab> theLichKing: Java usually means closed source on Linux Mobile platforms
May 23 00:53:52 <SpeedEvil> Many - the A1200 forex - is a distribution with a small open source core, and lots of closed source actual functional bits.
May 23 00:53:58 <nab> Either that or the vendor puts a god-awful hypervisor on it so you can't poke very deep
May 23 00:54:33 <CVirus> Android is not fully GPL'ed
May 23 00:54:35 <theLichKing> nab: why do they use java and claim it's fully open?
May 23 00:54:56 <SpeedEvil> I don't much care if it's java only.
May 23 00:55:32 <SpeedEvil> As long as java is fast enough, and I can do arbitrary stuff to the UI with java.
May 23 00:55:49 <SpeedEvil> For example, add buttons to, or replace the dialer.
May 23 00:58:17 <Outlander> and java means lower battery life because of more compiling
May 23 00:58:18 <Outlander> ?
May 23 00:58:27 <SpeedEvil> Not inherently.
May 23 00:58:34 <SpeedEvil> You can store bytecode
May 23 00:58:37 <Outlander> yeah true
May 23 00:58:47 <Outlander> but you're still at least half-compiling still?
May 23 00:58:59 <Outlander> compared to binary c code,etc
May 23 00:59:01 <SpeedEvil> You can even store the compiled bitecode
May 23 00:59:04 <Outlander> ah ok neato
May 23 00:59:06 <SpeedEvil> bytecode
May 23 00:59:27 <Outlander> but you'd have to put more effort into optimising the java option compared to the compiled c option?
May 23 00:59:30 <SpeedEvil> Some - as I understand it - have three stages.
May 23 01:00:02 <Outlander> but the java code would probably be easier to knock out for the great unwashed masses compared to alternatives?
May 23 01:00:06 <SpeedEvil> You've got the java language - which is compiled to bytecode.
May 23 01:00:35 <SpeedEvil> then you've got a bytecode->ASM converter, which has both interpreted and compiled parts, that are compiled as it goes
May 23 01:00:48 <SpeedEvil> and in some circumstances, those parts can be stored
May 23 01:08:47 <Outlander> cool
May 23 01:09:04 <theLichKing> that's such a hassle  
May 23 01:10:35 <rwhitby> So I just heard that new Android SDK releases are now under NDA until hardware is released.  Only the contest winners get access to SDK updated.
May 23 01:11:18 <SpeedEvil> And the license.
May 23 01:11:32 <SpeedEvil> I want to be able to sell software on the platform without paying the phone vendor or the network.
May 23 01:11:36 <rwhitby> There is an opportunity for the Openmoko marketing machine to capitalise on that.
May 23 01:16:46 <CVirus> I'm glad they invented version control so that I can fallback to an earlier revision when i fuck up my project while drunk
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri May 23 02:59:57 2008