**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 23 02:59:57 2008
May 23 03:09:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1396 has been created by mail(AT)mmontour.net
May 23 03:09:02 <cdbot2> * * openocd-native build failure
May 23 03:09:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1396
May 23 04:49:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1397 has been created by mail(AT)mmontour.net
May 23 04:49:03 <cdbot2> * * build failures: openmoko-appmanager2 and packagekit want libopkg 0.1.3
May 23 04:49:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1397
May 23 05:13:15 * rwhitby is glad that Kevin Dean has received a GTA02 for his snapshot reviews work
May 23 05:19:24 <dcordes> rwhitby: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Dean
May 23 05:19:59 <mjr> oh yeah, and I loved him in "Forced Entry"
May 23 05:21:03 <rwhitby> dcordes: hehe - I'm talking about http://monochromementality.com/index.php of course :-)
May 23 05:21:12 <dcordes> mjr: haha
May 23 05:21:27 <dcordes> oh nice boxing
May 23 05:22:30 <rwhitby> yeah, it is a nice box - reminds you of jewelry
May 23 05:25:19 <dcordes> got to be elegent these days. my htc was boxed in a similar way
May 23 06:25:39 <nigel_c> <nigel_c> Hmm. Fresh makemokofile build, first boot using qemu: "No space left on device"
May 23 06:26:10 <nigel_c> Err scuse the extra name - copying and pasting from when I was disconnected before and didn't realise :\
May 23 07:05:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1398 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 07:05:03 <cdbot2> * * Saved tag as same place will be overlap.
May 23 07:05:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1398
May 23 07:11:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1399 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 07:11:03 <cdbot2> * * Battery icon does not change immediately when plug USB or Charger
May 23 07:11:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1399
May 23 07:14:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1400 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 07:14:02 <cdbot2> * * when Plug the USB cable or Charger icon does not changed if Battery is full icon 
May 23 07:14:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1400
May 23 07:18:52 <cb22> kdean06: nice post :)
May 23 07:19:25 <kdean06> Thanks.
May 23 07:20:09 <Kamping_Kaiser> kdean06, hi mate
May 23 07:20:19 <kdean06> O_o
May 23 07:20:28 <kdean06> Wrong room. :D
May 23 07:20:32 <kdean06> How's it goin'?
May 23 07:20:52 <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe :)
May 23 07:20:55 <cb22> just wondering, how does it feel, any different to gta01? like if you shake it around, does stuff wobble :)
May 23 07:21:02 <Kamping_Kaiser> not bad. yourself?
May 23 07:21:25 <kdean06> cb22, It's actually a bit slower, but that might not be fair since I've not run the same software on both.
May 23 07:22:05 <kdean06> The first installed image was broken, so I installed the ASU and it's different to the point I don't have a way to compare since I've not gotten ASU working on the 01.
May 23 07:22:18 <cb22> i'd imagine that's probably due to the evil glamo :/ and physical construction?
May 23 07:23:11 <kdean06> It feels much the same, honestly with the exception of the SIM and microSD slot being a bit sturdier.
May 23 07:28:01 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1402 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 07:28:02 <cdbot2> * * it Makes serious noise when incoming a call or arriving new message during Blank time 
May 23 07:28:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1402
May 23 07:35:29 <methril> morning
May 23 07:40:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1403 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 07:40:03 <cdbot2> * * There is no function to serching the number from contacts on sending screen in Splinter.
May 23 07:40:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1403
May 23 07:59:15 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * r35b8fc13f833 10/src/ (12 files in 7 dirs): [timezone] Remove usage of TZ, start using and updating /etc/timezone
May 23 07:59:15 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * r2375da7466ba 10/src/libraries/qtopia/qworldmap.cpp: Avoid SIGFPE with a division with zero (hImg)
May 23 07:59:16 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke * r6a6017e59172 10/qtopiacore/qt/src/gui/painting/qbackingstore.cpp: Fix for the spinbox in the alarm section of the clock
May 23 08:15:23 <CIA-43> openmoko: 03zecke 07org.openmoko.april-update * r7e73f8d100ef 10/packages/tzdata/tzdata_2007k.bb: tzdata: Write a default /etc/timezone, install a /etc/localtime
May 23 08:31:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1405 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 08:31:03 <cdbot2> * * Edit screen is disappear if touch save without type anything
May 23 08:31:03 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1405
May 23 08:41:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1406 has been created by regina_kim(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 08:41:03 <cdbot2> * * Scroll bar does not appear in list screen if the Tags more then 6.
May 23 08:41:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1406
May 23 08:41:20 <josch|nsn> XorA|gone: are you there or rly gone?
May 23 08:52:10 <buz> is there a qemu version of ASU?
May 23 08:58:32 <ljp> rwhitby: ping
May 23 09:39:50 <bedboi> hi there.
May 23 09:40:05 <bedboi> any news about the software update for GTA01?
May 23 09:41:45 <josch|nsn> bedboi: you mean ASU
May 23 09:41:51 <bedboi> yep
May 23 09:42:06 <josch|nsn> bedboi: just wait for XorA|gone to return
May 23 09:42:10 <bedboi> i just don't need to add another acronym to my db :)
May 23 09:42:15 <josch|nsn> he manages ASU for gta01
May 23 09:43:41 <bedboi> is there any unofficial release?
May 23 09:44:49 <josch|nsn> as far as i know no
May 23 09:52:26 <tessier> You have to sign an NDA to be an openmoko developer?
May 23 09:52:37 <tessier> That doesn't seem to go well with being an open phone.
May 23 09:53:47 <SpeedEvil> no, you don't
May 23 09:54:43 <josch|nsn> but you have to sign an nda to develop on gsm and stuff
May 23 09:54:52 <SpeedEvil> Nope.
May 23 09:54:56 <josch|nsn> but i mean only the gsm firmware
May 23 09:55:13 <SpeedEvil> GSM firmware is basically out.
May 23 09:55:16 <SpeedEvil> Bu that's all
May 23 09:55:24 <tessier> I see. Unfortunately but blame the FCC. :(
May 23 09:55:25 <SpeedEvil> you get a normal serial modem interface
May 23 09:55:35 <josch|nsn> no firmware update anymore?
May 23 09:55:50 <josch|nsn> i here mickeyl complaining about gsm firmware quite often
May 23 09:55:58 <josch|nsn> there are also several bugs filed
May 23 09:56:02 * Kamping_Kaiser wonders why its the FCC's fault
May 23 09:56:26 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: completely open radio firmware does _bad_ stuff combined with asocial users.
May 23 09:57:06 <josch|nsn> and it's probably not allowed to be sold either
May 23 09:57:28 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, meh. same with HAM gear, and coils of copper
May 23 09:57:51 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: sure - but one person can't with those code a peer-peer app
May 23 09:58:08 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, not sure what you mean by that.
May 23 09:58:22 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: which uses one radio channel, and wipes out 8 or 16 users who are making phone calls normally.
May 23 09:58:56 <SpeedEvil> GSM works so well because every handset transmits in a time when no others are doing so.
May 23 09:59:21 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, ah right. i'd disagree that HAM gear couldnt be made to wipe out channels fairly gratuitiously.
May 23 09:59:22 <Kamping_Kaiser> *sp
May 23 09:59:38 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: Sure ham gear can.
May 23 10:00:09 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: however - contemplate an app for a mass market device that can do this, 'free data transfer' 
May 23 10:00:31 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: And you rapidly cause major network problems.
May 23 10:00:57 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: especially when it's as easy as installing napster or kazaa or something.
May 23 10:01:29 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, i'm not convinced. theres existing wifi cards (thnk raylink and atheros for examples) that have open firmware.
May 23 10:01:29 <rschuster> hey, how am I supposed to mount nfs remote directories in OM? after starting portmap manually mounting manually fails with: mount: RPC: Program not registered
May 23 10:01:29 <rschuster> I was told there should be a nfs client support module but don't anything like this in 'opkg list'
May 23 10:02:13 <methril> the you suggest to make a GSM device "open" ?
May 23 10:02:38 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: the frequencies the modem can use are all allocated to GSM.
May 23 10:02:59 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: transmitting _anything_ without the control of teh tower on one channel will disrupt 8-16 calls
May 23 10:03:07 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, sure (not that wifi cards are modems)
May 23 10:04:32 <SpeedEvil> I care very little about wifi.
May 23 10:04:51 <SpeedEvil> GSM, where pulling this sort of crap can disrupt emergency calls - is a really bad thing.
May 23 10:05:18 <Kamping_Kaiser> what band is GSM? (i forget the frequency)
May 23 10:05:32 <SpeedEvil> 4 bands
May 23 10:05:49 <Tronic> Wtf, why is OpenMoko switching to Qt?
May 23 10:05:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> if the network cant handle rouge devices is suceptalbe to an attack already and should be fixed (just imio of course)
May 23 10:06:02 <SpeedEvil> You simply cannot fix this.
May 23 10:06:16 <josch|nsn> Tronic: they arent
May 23 10:06:31 <SpeedEvil> Wireless is _not_ like conventional networks.
May 23 10:06:38 <SpeedEvil> Where you can simply filter stuff out.
May 23 10:07:26 <josch|nsn> Tronic: it's a temporal solution as the gtk stuff was not usable
May 23 10:07:38 <josch|nsn> Tronic: but they arnt "switching"
May 23 10:07:54 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: you can make efforts to alleviate interfernce, but it's _much_ better to simply not have that interference.
May 23 10:08:11 <josch|nsn> Tronic: because 1) its temproal (e will be used later on) and 2) you have still all gtk libs around
May 23 10:08:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, "(e will be ..." ? i dont follow :/
May 23 10:08:51 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: a phone close to a tower can have a million times the signal strength of a distant one. If the nearby one is transmitting at the wrong time, you simply can't pick up the distant one.
May 23 10:09:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1408 has been created by tick(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 10:09:03 <cdbot2> * * packagekit still send success when md5sum error
May 23 10:09:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1408
May 23 10:09:06 <josch|nsn> Kamping_Kaiser: you know what e is?
May 23 10:09:32 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, i know it as a drug, and a desktop environment
May 23 10:09:38 <josch|nsn> haha
May 23 10:09:53 <josch|nsn> no e17 is the a window manager not an desktop environment
May 23 10:09:59 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, then why isnt it burned to a rom? (or is it? i was told its still floating)
May 23 10:10:06 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, er, yes, sorry ;|
May 23 10:10:20 <SpeedEvil> Kamping_Kaiser: it's in flash, which can't be easily programmed
May 23 10:10:26 <josch|nsn> and e is a collection of all the libs around e17 like evas, edje, ecore, efreet...
May 23 10:10:37 <Kamping_Kaiser> SpeedEvil, ah ok.
May 23 10:11:16 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, i thought the E foundation libs were totally seperate (which causes the confustion re qt's connection)
May 23 10:11:45 <josch|nsn> Kamping_Kaiser: of course you can use the e libs seperately from e17
May 23 10:12:22 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, yes, course. but i gathered from what you were saying that qt was there because E needed it.
May 23 10:12:32 <josch|nsn> no
May 23 10:13:00 <josch|nsn> openmoko currently uses a combination of qtopia and e apps
May 23 10:13:33 * Kamping_Kaiser decides he has a lot of catching up to do
May 23 10:13:52 <josch|nsn> Kamping_Kaiser: just try out ASU and you will learn
May 23 10:15:02 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, i'll find it, thanks
May 23 10:23:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1409 has been created by tick(AT)openmoko.com
May 23 10:23:03 <cdbot2> * * packagekit send success even if network failed. 
May 23 10:23:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1409
May 23 10:24:16 <holycow> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080522-openmoko-linux-mobile-phone-ditches-gtk-gets-qt-and-e17.html
May 23 10:24:18 <holycow> yay!
May 23 10:24:30 * holycow does a dance
May 23 10:24:34 <holycow> wickedness
May 23 10:24:38 <holycow> i hope its true
May 23 10:24:41 <ljp> why are you so happy?
May 23 10:25:23 <josch|nsn> ljp: lol is your question serious?
May 23 10:26:05 <holycow> primarily because gtk dev is guided by people that don't focus on performance
May 23 10:26:20 <ljp> ahh
May 23 10:26:25 <ljp> josch|nsn: yes I was serious
May 23 10:26:37 <josch|nsn> ljp: just read the article - raster explains there why
May 23 10:26:46 <holycow> while i get the issues around qt not being lgpl, you just end up with faster and nicer performing environments and apps overall (even tho shitty devs can ruin anything)
May 23 10:27:21 <holycow> just look at what kde was able to do with qt4
May 23 10:27:28 <ljp> actually, being gpl is a good thing if you want your neo to remain free software
May 23 10:28:08 <holycow> that too
May 23 10:28:51 <josch|nsn> i hope you guys know that qtopia is a temporal solution?
May 23 10:29:01 <holycow> also gtk suffers from the single pervasive issue around all open source projects without backing
May 23 10:29:04 <josch|nsn> so do not worry about qtopia licensing
May 23 10:29:05 <holycow> lethargy ...
May 23 10:29:32 <holycow> which is fine its just that overall gtk also develops a lot more slowly because no one really funds it the way trolltech does qt stuff
May 23 10:29:43 <bedboi> guys what's the status of the power management?
May 23 10:30:53 <holycow> well if you standardize on qtopia ... where can you go from there but maybe full qt or kde based something?  going back to gtk isn't exactly possible
May 23 10:31:26 <josch|nsn> holycow: it seems you have no idea about the feature plans?
May 23 10:32:18 <ljp> josch|nsn: where does anyone say qtopia is temporary?
May 23 10:32:24 <holycow> nope, i'm just watching from the periphery and the project people are quiet and busy getting product out :)
May 23 10:32:31 <josch|nsn> read the mailing lists
May 23 10:32:43 <josch|nsn> it works like this:
May 23 10:32:50 * Kamping_Kaiser hopes qt is only temp/optional
May 23 10:32:51 <holycow> anything we should be aware of ?
May 23 10:32:56 <josch|nsn> openmoko used gtk - it sucked
May 23 10:33:16 <josch|nsn> then they realised that freerunner is about to be launched and that they need a working software
May 23 10:33:32 <josch|nsn> qtopia was there so they took it and ported it to X11
May 23 10:33:40 <ljp> they did not port it
May 23 10:33:40 <josch|nsn> and added some nice e goodies
May 23 10:33:44 * tessier just edited the wiki and added himself to the list of people who want to buy a phone so that maybe we can do a group buy
May 23 10:34:01 <ljp> zecke claims that openmoko ported qtopia to x11 are wrong
May 23 10:34:19 <josch|nsn> ljp: explain
May 23 10:34:27 <ljp> trolltech ported it
May 23 10:34:31 <tessier> I read that switch to qt article pasted above and wondered: Why does a phone with a tiny screen even need a window manager at all?
May 23 10:34:52 <josch|nsn> ljp: oh rly?
May 23 10:34:56 <diego_at_work> becouse there are multiple applcation running?
May 23 10:34:57 <josch|nsn> nice, then
May 23 10:35:03 <ljp> still pure qtopia works better
May 23 10:35:03 <diego_at_work> ofc he need a wm ^^
May 23 10:35:44 <tessier> diego_at_work: You can use a task switcher of some sort for that. When I think window manager I think windows with borders and being able to move them around. Not much screen real estate for that sort of thing. Won't all apps just run full screen?
May 23 10:35:53 <josch|nsn> tessier, even your mobile phone has a wm but you probably have only one window at a time
May 23 10:35:59 <diego_at_work> tessier, u think wrong
May 23 10:36:15 <ljp> trolltech ported qtopia to x11 for research/demo. it was unsupported and not finished
May 23 10:36:15 <diego_at_work> matchbox is a WM and don't have borders
May 23 10:36:29 <tessier> diego_at_work: What does it do?
May 23 10:36:29 <josch|nsn> right
May 23 10:36:45 <josch|nsn> tessier it manages your applications you have running
May 23 10:36:54 <diego_at_work> the windows are all full screen, but modal windows
May 23 10:36:56 <josch|nsn> and displays them in the correct place
May 23 10:37:25 <josch|nsn> anyway - the feature will not be qtopia but an e based environment
May 23 10:38:24 <ljp> still, it will take quite a while for them to get in a usuable state
May 23 10:38:28 <zecke> ljp: stop trolling. Better make libqtopiaphonemodem properly decode SMS and handle decoding properly at other places too :)
May 23 10:38:57 <ljp> zecke: stop telling lies about how you ported qtopia to x11 when you know full well it was trolltech
May 23 10:39:03 <josch|nsn> zecke: whats the truth about qtopia+x11 - what did om do?
May 23 10:39:20 <zecke> ljp: go to distro-devel and read the status mails :)
May 23 10:39:26 <raster> tessier: you have a very limited idea of a window manager
May 23 10:39:38 <raster> tessier:  wm's may or may not put borders
May 23 10:39:45 <raster> they may or may not allow u to riuesize, move
May 23 10:39:50 <raster> they may or may not do many other things too
May 23 10:39:52 <josch|nsn> ah raster, zecke finally someone that is into all this ;)
May 23 10:40:17 <zecke> josch|nsn: I didn't follow your discussion but the truth is: Trolltech started with an _x11 port, and I think I mentioned that in my status reports on distro-devel
May 23 10:40:27 <raster> as such u really need a wm to manage switching
May 23 10:40:31 <josch|nsn> zecke: right
May 23 10:40:32 <raster> handle focus setting
May 23 10:40:32 <zecke> josch|nsn: the other truth is: The stuff TT was doing is barely working :)
May 23 10:40:34 <raster> etc.
May 23 10:40:35 <ljp> zecke: I dont need to I was running qtopia x11 months before you even knew about it
May 23 10:40:39 <raster> e as such sucks in a lot more that it does
May 23 10:40:41 <raster> like launching apps
May 23 10:40:51 <raster> a status "shelg" (panel)
May 23 10:41:02 <zecke> ljp: so passing "-noshow" to todolist and contact... whatever didn't annoy these apps for you?
May 23 10:41:05 <raster> and gadgets to display current status of battery, gsm, wireless, blah blah blah
May 23 10:41:16 <zecke> ljp: fix your bugs and shut up, I'm sick of arguing with you.
May 23 10:41:31 <holycow> back, *scroll* *scroll*
May 23 10:41:39 <ljp> give us some actual bugs and not things you think is wrong with the code
May 23 10:41:55 <zecke> ljp: do a git-log and count the bugs fixed. Hell, I fixed huge memory leaks. You don't even know the concept of a destructor in your office.
May 23 10:42:19 <zecke> ljp: CUSD handling ignoring the CSD parameter on the result
May 23 10:42:25 <raster> either way
May 23 10:42:36 <raster> qtopia on x11 is behaving much better now than it did at the start
May 23 10:42:42 <raster> it really didnt like there being a wm
May 23 10:42:43 <raster> :)
May 23 10:42:52 <raster> (or a wm that likes to enforce policies/placement)
May 23 10:43:01 <zecke> ljp: conceptional flaws about guessing how long executing a queue is taken...
May 23 10:43:01 <raster> and did make assumptions on its environment
May 23 10:43:09 <josch|nsn> i'm rly excited to try out the ASU on my gta01
May 23 10:43:16 <raster> it was mostly displaying and there and working
May 23 10:43:37 <raster> but it was definitely missing the extra touches and integration back with a normal x world
May 23 10:43:38 <raster> :)
May 23 10:43:42 <guillaum1> zecke: hi. woglinde told me you helped him on the qtopia4 stuff for MIDPath. Thanks for that !
May 23 10:44:00 <ljp> raster: thats because 1. qtopia x11 was a proof of concept,. 2. it was not supported nor optimized nor worked on
May 23 10:44:00 <zecke> ljp: Anyway. Stop claiming Qtopia is product ready. It is not even possible to show german umlaute in contacts coming fromt he SIM...
May 23 10:44:22 <zecke> ljp: so you ported something and it didn't work? this is not my understanding of porting..
May 23 10:44:31 * zecke ported Linux to a quantum computer then...
May 23 10:44:55 <ljp> there are different stages of working. usually 'proof of concept' mean alpha 
May 23 10:45:14 <josch|nsn> lol guys could you lay down your differences or discuss this matter elsewhere? :/
May 23 10:45:27 <Kamping_Kaiser> josch|nsn, aw :( i was watching
May 23 10:45:30 <zecke> guillaum1: I just had a look at some files. I wonder where the fonts are coming from in MIDPath? e.g. I would like to have german umlaute properly displayed :)
May 23 10:46:02 <guillaum1> zecke: yeah I know. I have to fix that... Will do
May 23 10:46:11 <zecke> josch|nsn: sorry. I'm just sick of lorn always talking, doing nothing and making false claims.
May 23 10:46:11 <methril> did you see that messge from the Comunity ML? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017756.html
May 23 10:46:30 <raster> ljp: yeah - it still had all those rough bits. it works ok - to an extent, if u have no wm
May 23 10:46:31 <raster> :)
May 23 10:46:56 * guillaum1 was lazy on the font stuff
May 23 10:47:04 <holycow> zecke and ljp, well let me just say i appreciate all the work both of you guys/orgs are doing
May 23 10:47:05 <raster> err
May 23 10:47:08 <raster> it worked
May 23 10:47:10 <ljp> raster: it was done on matchbox
May 23 10:47:13 <josch|nsn> methril: quite nice :)
May 23 10:47:24 <raster> hmm
May 23 10:47:24 <zecke> ljp: Stop claiming that picking Qtopia (even on Qt Embedded Linux) would have made anything faster. I fix gernal Qtopia issues day-in, day-out. There is hardly anything X11 related
May 23 10:47:26 <holycow> at the end of the day having e17, qtopia and an open device is far better than sliced bread
May 23 10:47:29 <methril> id' like to help, but maybe i'm so noob :)
May 23 10:47:44 <raster> rather interesting - did u test the whole env - or just specifci apps ie 1 at a time?
May 23 10:47:58 <ljp> zecke: I tried the ASU thing. qtopia fb still starts apps faster
May 23 10:48:08 <raster> holycow:  at least u can use any tooklit u like
May 23 10:48:21 <raster> gtk, qt, hell- perl/tk - if someone gets it building
May 23 10:48:21 <holycow> raster: that is actually really nice as well
May 23 10:48:23 <zecke> raster: queens land, a special place in the world, things magically work there :)
May 23 10:48:24 <raster> or efl
May 23 10:48:26 <raster> or sdl
May 23 10:48:27 <ljp> raster: it was a demo of 'look! it runs in x11 too'
May 23 10:48:28 <raster> or...
May 23 10:48:38 * mjr doesn't mind qtopia stuff on X11 either
May 23 10:48:39 <holycow> just for the record, while i preffer qt, i don't want to see gtk shut out either
May 23 10:48:54 <zecke> ljp: yeah, proper Qt apps even run on Windows and OSX ;)
May 23 10:48:57 <raster> ljp: yeah - it had that feel. :) i understand - no problkems. but it has needed a fair bit of fiddling and work to make it work "better" :)
May 23 10:49:17 <ljp> of course. no one is denying that
May 23 10:49:23 <zerghase> Moin
May 23 10:49:24 <holycow> for us noobs, is qtopia a subset of qt, or a whole different beast?
May 23 10:49:40 <ljp> qtopia is to qt what kde is to qt
May 23 10:49:49 <holycow> got it. danke.
May 23 10:49:50 <zecke> holycow: Qt + libs+apps
May 23 10:49:50 <ljp> somewhat
May 23 10:50:07 <holycow> right, neato
May 23 10:50:32 <ljp> but qtopia does need no stinkin' x
May 23 10:50:39 <ljp> does not need, that is
May 23 10:50:49 <zecke> ljp: http://trolltech.com/developer/task-tracker/index_html?id=212600&method=entry stop talking and fix that. and then review your code where you blindly stick the result of the modem into a QString where you should proper decoding (hint addressbook)
May 23 10:50:49 <holycow> so latest qtopia uses qt4? or older version?
May 23 10:51:01 <mjr> yesyes, because you'd prefer your vendor-lockin
May 23 10:51:07 <zecke> holycow: it is tied to Qt4.3
May 23 10:51:13 <ljp> zecke: i have nothin gto do with addressbook
May 23 10:51:16 <holycow> neato
May 23 10:51:34 <holycow> maybe qtopia 4 can include plasma 
May 23 10:51:36 * holycow ducks
May 23 10:51:37 <holycow> :)
May 23 10:51:42 <holycow> sorry had to go for it
May 23 10:51:53 <ljp> plasma schasma
May 23 10:52:05 <zecke> ljp: good attitude. so there are bugs that make Qtopia Phone unusable for 90% of the people of the world and you don't care. but prefer to say how great and ready it is
May 23 10:52:28 <zecke> ljp: talk is so easy, you should start showing code
May 23 10:52:40 <ljp> did i say i didnt care? i just said i dont work on addressbook
May 23 10:53:11 <ljp> but i understand when you say 'you' you really mean trolltech
May 23 10:53:45 <holycow> i'd like to order both of you giant kegs of beer
May 23 10:54:04 <holycow> i think the goal here is to crush wince and the iphone, no?
May 23 10:54:05 <holycow> :)
May 23 10:54:17 <zecke> So from what I know, even Qtopia 4.4 will not be usable by the not english speaking world.
May 23 10:54:24 <mjr> (incidentally using my lappie on the train again with neo as my internet hookup)
May 23 10:54:28 <Kamping_Kaiser> holycow, i'm hoping the goal is to ensure freedom myself ;)
May 23 10:54:43 <holycow> Kamping_Kaiser: lol!  heh, much more sensible indeed!
May 23 10:54:48 <holycow> mjr: are you? sweet!
May 23 10:55:49 <Kamping_Kaiser> mjr, cool... i wont have to ask if its posable then ;)
May 23 10:56:01 <zecke> ljp: Stop claiming Qtopia (Phone) is just working even if you have deployed group thinking.
May 23 10:56:27 <holycow> personally i would like to encourage the moko project to consider some of the device formats here for future generations: http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/HTC_2dPhones
May 23 10:57:39 <holycow> zecke: question for you
May 23 10:57:51 <holycow> we are being asked to start looking at blackberreis and we hate the devices with a passion
May 23 10:57:55 <holycow> they just don't work frankly
May 23 10:57:58 <zecke> josch|nsn: if you are interested in what I did to Qtopia: http://git.openmoko.org/?p=qtopia.git;a=summary :)
May 23 10:58:14 <holycow> but they have only one feature that is usefull in a corporate setting: device control via policy
May 23 10:58:27 <mjr> I have to say that the gprs experience, limited though it is, is _much_ better than on my previous symbian phone (n-gage); the connection might lag for whiles when in poor reception areas but it just won't die but restores sooner or later
May 23 10:58:30 <mjr> which was _not_  the case with said other phone
May 23 10:58:41 <holycow> might the e17/qtopia environment have the capability at some point to have lockdown capability via policy?
May 23 10:58:52 <holycow> if the answer is yes then we would be buying mokos for the company
May 23 10:59:30 <holycow> kde has the kiosk framework for this (not quite maintained but in principle it works fairly well)
May 23 11:00:01 <diego_at_work> porting kde to neo, may not be a great idea ^^
May 23 11:00:25 <zecke> holycow: well, obviously not for the ASU and to admit I didn't think of it before. E.g. would having a dedicated user account + limited amount of apps be enough?
May 23 11:00:26 <Kamping_Kaiser> holycow, you have policy on phones? :|
May 23 11:00:40 <josch|nsn> zecke: yeah i know this list - this is why i got confused about someone saying you NOT ported it
May 23 11:00:51 <holycow> well the libraries aren't designed for current psus thats true, if cpus keep on going below 45nm we may actually see gigaherz types of power in cels too
May 23 11:01:12 <holycow> Kamping_Kaiser: for corporate environments its a must
May 23 11:01:14 <holycow> infact
May 23 11:01:40 <holycow> its starting to become part of laws in particular for companies operating in the health and public service sectors
May 23 11:01:59 <Kamping_Kaiser> holycow, crazy
May 23 11:02:06 <holycow> primarily around security and auditing, however you can extend that all the way down into the framework it self
May 23 11:02:32 <holycow> zecke: no worries i mean look its the first iteration of the product in the market place.  you guys have a lot to prove before you get there.
May 23 11:02:43 <holycow> zecke: that would be a good start yes
May 23 11:03:08 <zecke> holycow: I mean with the open nature you can start doing netfilter stuff, SELinux :)
May 23 11:03:37 <josch|nsn> see you later guys!
May 23 11:03:41 <holycow> ljp: that is also for you as well ... if you guys are looking at pushing qtopia further, think policy based controls, it something everyone in corp is being forced to deal with
May 23 11:03:47 <holycow> zecke: there is that
May 23 11:03:54 <holycow> zecke: indeed i mean we probably will
May 23 11:04:03 <holycow> but as with anything homebrew its reinventing the wheel
May 23 11:04:12 <holycow> being able to buy support for such a feature separately for example
May 23 11:04:15 <holycow> would be of interest to us
May 23 11:04:58 <holycow> so as with the bb you buy a server app to integrate into mail system that also handles all the policies (it happens to act as a vpn gateway for bbs as well as act as a proxy for http access to save on bandwidth usage for carriers)
May 23 11:05:21 <holycow> but with bbs its closed of course and basically targets only exchange which we just despise
May 23 11:05:28 <holycow> the usually non free 'herd the cattle stuff'
May 23 11:05:33 <holycow> so think of it this way
May 23 11:05:42 <holycow> yes its a feature i'm interestedin done right with a turnkey system
May 23 11:05:49 <holycow> its also a feature we would like to buy support fort
May 23 11:05:52 <holycow> for
May 23 11:05:58 <holycow> that also brings up another tangent
May 23 11:06:11 <holycow> while the moko devices will make or break on pure retail sales i guess
May 23 11:06:13 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03heikki.paajanen * r0a70d25161e6 10/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
May 23 11:06:13 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Improved Neo support
May 23 11:06:13 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: More serial fixes
May 23 11:06:27 <holycow> there is additional possibility for you guys to offer value add services such as the one i described
May 23 11:06:35 <ljp> holycow: look at SXE
May 23 11:06:44 <holycow> no wince, iphone or bb device could really do what you guys can
May 23 11:06:58 <holycow> especially with e17/qtopia/linux in the mix, thats one powerfull combination
May 23 11:07:02 <holycow> plus or minus some bugs
May 23 11:07:05 <holycow> :) ljp googling
May 23 11:07:45 <zecke> ljp: isn't there a mentioning of a security issue with SXE in the tt documentation? I remember emdete mentioning that
May 23 11:08:45 <ljp> possibly.
May 23 11:08:46 <holycow> if either of you guys have questions or thoughts or need input, i'm around
May 23 11:08:55 <holycow> i'm not sure anything i said is usefull or helpfull
May 23 11:09:04 <holycow> but just tossing it out there
May 23 11:09:11 <ljp> sxe is being reworked for 4.4
May 23 11:11:32 <holycow> ljp: very interesting
May 23 11:11:36 <holycow> thanks for the heads up on that
May 23 11:16:05 <facka69> hallo, after i flashed the underground image in my gta01 the older original om images are shown in a bad layout (gray in gray) and the system freezes
May 23 11:16:31 <facka69> maybe an X11 problem? :(
May 23 11:19:40 <diego_at_work> have you tried to login via usb?
May 23 11:20:13 <facka69> diego_at_work: ssh?
May 23 11:20:17 <diego_at_work> yes
May 23 11:20:38 <facka69> diego_at_work: i will check it
May 23 11:22:53 <zeno___> does running e17 AND qtoptia eat up ram? why is qtopia needed anyways?
May 23 11:23:01 <raster> no it doesnt
May 23 11:23:13 <raster> its less than matchbox+gtk oh apps
May 23 11:23:18 <ljp> because qtopia works
May 23 11:24:14 <zecke> ljp: ...
May 23 11:24:29 <zecke> ljp: if it is working, why do I need to patch it?
May 23 11:24:46 <diego_at_work> somewhat working? ^^
May 23 11:24:57 <ljp> just because something works doesnt mean its perfect
May 23 11:26:01 <zecke> ljp: what is your definition of working? it compiles?
May 23 11:27:06 <ljp> ya your right. qtopia doesnt work. thats not why you guys started using it. you just wanted to do more work.
May 23 11:28:24 <zeno___> it seems best to me to just have a fullscreen WM (that supports switching), not like you are going to have more than one app open on it
May 23 11:28:39 <zecke> ljp: well, our leaders fell victim to marketing. I can't blame them but that doesn't mean Qtopia is bug free or can be used by people
May 23 11:28:56 <ljp> i cant use it.
May 23 11:29:09 <zeno___> does it work for calls 95+% of the time?
May 23 11:29:21 <ljp> seems to
May 23 11:29:36 <ljp> err I mean.. heh I _can_ use it
May 23 11:32:15 <zecke> ljp: if you get a spanish SMS you can't read. The root cause. You blindly stick strings you should decode into a QString at various places throughout libqtopiaphonemodem. And you are unable to fix that for Qtopia4.4 according to your support
May 23 11:33:10 <ynezz> zecke: you're paid by OM to work on Qt/Qtopia?
May 23 11:33:16 <ynezz> just curious :)
May 23 11:33:29 <zecke> ljp: so Qtopia Phone 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4 might be a phone but not for GSM/UMTS/EDGE standards
May 23 11:33:39 <diego_at_work> with the old qtopia image (frame buffer) i wasn't able to write italian sms ^^
May 23 11:33:52 <zecke> ynezz: yes, I'm just curious why I fix bugs day-in and day-out if everything is just working
May 23 11:34:09 <zeno___> do you think edge will be in the next version?
May 23 11:34:26 <methril> in the next version of?
May 23 11:34:31 <zeno___> openmoko phone
May 23 11:34:49 <zecke> zeno___: no idea, just wanted to have the list complete :)
May 23 11:34:52 <methril> GTA03? i don't think so
May 23 11:34:54 <zecke> ljp: ???
May 23 11:35:19 <mjr> was it raster or some other om guy that said that 03 will have edge
May 23 11:35:24 <methril> but i don't know
May 23 11:35:45 <zecke> ljp: I have named already two places to the TT support where you fail to properly decode, I assume there are more. So what do you say? Is that working by your definition?
May 23 11:35:52 <ieatlint_> gta02 only has gprs?
May 23 11:35:55 <DPThuugh1> are there any GTA01 builds for the new-world stuff?
May 23 11:36:02 <mjr> ieatlint_, yes
May 23 11:36:10 <methril> <DPThuugh1> not yet
May 23 11:36:23 <DPThuugh1> methril: but there will be?
May 23 11:36:42 <methril> i think XorgA is working on it
May 23 11:37:08 <DPThuugh1> nice.
May 23 11:37:40 <zecke> ljp: the thing is: I'm capable of opening GSM 07.07, go through each command you use and check if you lacked the encoding. I'm just annoyed that I have to do this. I wonder why you are not able to do this? Isn't GSM important?
May 23 11:38:57 <zecke> ljp: ??? 
May 23 11:46:17 <facka69> diego_at_work: ssh is not possible :(
May 23 11:47:32 <diego_at_work> ok, it's ufficially crashed....
May 23 11:47:43 <diego_at_work> i suspect a problem with the X server
May 23 11:49:00 <facka69> diego_at_work: but why can it crash only by fashing?
May 23 11:49:18 <diego_at_work> flashing?
May 23 11:50:11 <diego_at_work> i suspect X11, becouse having direct access to hardware, it can't lockup the hardware
May 23 11:50:17 <diego_at_work> s/can't/can
May 23 11:50:35 <facka69> diego_at_work: is it not flashing when i insert a new image with dfu-util?
May 23 11:50:43 <diego_at_work> yes
May 23 11:50:47 <diego_at_work> it is
May 23 11:51:09 <diego_at_work> btw you can flash an old image for recover it
May 23 11:51:44 <diego_at_work> i suggest you to flash images on SD, if you want to do some testing
May 23 11:51:58 <diego_at_work> and leave a working image on the internal flash
May 23 11:52:28 <facka69> now it is to late or not?
May 23 11:53:34 <diego_at_work> no, you can still flash a working image
May 23 11:53:39 <diego_at_work> btw: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Booting_from_SD
May 23 11:55:59 <facka69> yes this is on sd and is it than possible to recover the flash image (that it work for later with a final build)?
May 23 11:56:11 <diego_at_work> you can always reflash kernel or images
May 23 11:56:32 <diego_at_work> only flashing uboot can brick you neo
May 23 11:58:01 <facka69> but when i flash the neo (not on sd) with an old working image it chash?
May 23 11:59:10 <diego_at_work> it's supposed to do not crash
May 23 12:00:16 <bagpuss_thecat> moooooorning all
May 23 12:00:29 <facka69> how can i fix it?
May 23 12:00:56 <zeno___> wha you cant ssh?
May 23 12:04:02 <ljp> zecke: we have 40 engineers just working on qtopia bugs. and yes, for the most part it works.
May 23 12:04:19 <ljp> zecke: whatever support tells you i have no control over.
May 23 12:05:44 <facka69> diego_at_work: do you mean that is an hardware bug (a long time the flashing works, and after the booting of the underground image fails, all other images was also bad)
May 23 12:05:55 <zeno___> ljp: you work for trolltech?
May 23 12:06:36 <ljp> zecke: I dont know why that is happening, I dont necessarily work on phone libs, but I can bring it up
May 23 12:06:37 <diego_at_work> I think is a problem with the image that you flashed
May 23 12:06:45 <mickeyl> morning
May 23 12:06:47 <ljp> zeno___: yes
May 23 12:06:55 <zecke> ljp: people pick Qtopia becuase they want to add value. me going through src/libraries/qtopiaphonemodem and reviewing your code is not creating any value for OM
May 23 12:07:45 <facka69> diego_at_work: but before the underground image the same image works fine!
May 23 12:07:56 <ljp> zecke: perhaps you initial emails to support need to be more general. 'sending german sms doesn't work'
May 23 12:08:15 <diego_at_work> uhm there was a bug in flashing images ...
May 23 12:08:31 <ljp> zecke: wait till they send it to an engineer
May 23 12:08:33 <zecke> ljp: such errors should be spotted internally, without going through support :)
May 23 12:08:38 <ljp> truew
May 23 12:08:58 <ljp> I will ask my lead, who is german why he hasnt sent any german sms's
May 23 12:09:23 <zecke> ljp: I said spanish and received
May 23 12:09:37 <ljp> he lewads the translations stuff too, so he will be amused to find this out
May 23 12:10:11 <ljp> zecke: i used german as an example
May 23 12:10:37 <zecke> ljp: you have been lazy with tr's as well. You have uglified your code with "// no tr" but seem to not do any checking on the strings ;)
May 23 12:10:53 <ljp> we have plenty of non english speakers to test this stuff i am amazed you found problems
May 23 12:11:37 <zecke> ljp: N209626 was one, I mostly just open a file in the Qtopia source and see obvious issues...
May 23 12:12:27 <diego_at_work> facka69: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko
May 23 12:13:00 <diego_at_work> look for the "VERY IMPORTANT NOTE", it may applay to you
May 23 12:14:51 <zecke> ljp: and you don't use valgrind (memcheck + leak checking) on your apps... or how can you explain I was the first to find memleaks in libqtopiapim (by just looking at the code)
May 23 12:15:55 <ljp> zecke: the // no tr thing is for scripts/commands and generate/creating translations
May 23 12:17:15 <zecke> ljp: e.g. even my grep setText over the qt sourcecode is showing obvious issues with i18n. setText(n + tr("bananas"))
May 23 12:17:27 <zecke> ljp: 1.) differentiate between singular and plural form
May 23 12:18:03 <zecke> ljp: 2.) the sentence composition is different in different langauges. e.g. some other langauge wants tr("bananas %1")...
May 23 12:18:33 <zecke> brb
May 23 12:21:23 <zecke> ljp: it is not the single bug one is finding. It is the amount of obvious issues with the sourcecode that makes everyone scream and run-away.
May 23 12:21:25 <bagpuss_thecat> can SMS data stored on an OpenMoko phone be synced or backed up to a Linux PC?
May 23 12:22:13 <ljp> zecke: what happened to alsa states files on gta02?
May 23 12:22:33 <mjr> well yes of course
May 23 12:22:36 <zecke> ljp: you saw graeme's mail, moved to /usr/share/openmoko/scenario
May 23 12:22:50 <zecke> ljp: you can help on the alsa scenario API
May 23 12:22:51 <mjr> "easily", dunno if at this point :]
May 23 12:26:50 <LittleIdiot> eeehm... who do i have to sleep with to get libspeex into the official buildsystem? ;)
May 23 12:27:00 <Zwiseli> hei all, can anyone tell me if this is a bug? : If i want to build a image with bitbake, the initial caching progress stops at some point. If i press enter, some error messages about an not accepted certificate are shown and bitbake exits after the caching. If i press "p", the certificate gets accepted and the build process starts.
May 23 12:27:08 <LittleIdiot> ...or where should i send the request to..?
May 23 12:27:53 <zecke> LittleIdiot: where is the difference between libspeex and speex?
May 23 12:28:24 <Zwiseli> but there is no message when bitbake stops.. this is a bit confusing
May 23 12:29:02 <LittleIdiot> zecke: none - is it included already?
May 23 12:29:14 <zecke> LittleIdiot: should be, try to build speex
May 23 12:29:58 <LittleIdiot> i've downloaded the latest rootfs tar.gz from buildhost.openmoko.org, did a "find -iname '*speex*'" in the root directory of it and got no results ;)
May 23 12:30:22 <LittleIdiot> well, i guess i'll have to install the entire build system anyway...
May 23 12:30:27 <zecke> LittleIdiot: :)
May 23 12:30:38 <zecke> LittleIdiot: well, we might have prebuilt packages
May 23 12:31:10 <zecke> LittleIdiot: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/armv4t/ we do
May 23 12:31:19 <zecke> LittleIdiot: speex, speex-dev, speex-dbg
May 23 12:31:19 <LittleIdiot> ahh, thank you!
May 23 12:31:48 <zecke> LittleIdiot: if you find bugs with them, try bugs.openmoko.org or the distro-devel ML
May 23 12:32:20 <LittleIdiot> will do ;)
May 23 12:38:02 <guillaum1> zecke: in your opinon, what should we improve in MIDPath (except the font of course ;-) ) ?
May 23 12:38:57 <zecke> guillaum1: hehe, I have not yet played with it too much
May 23 12:39:39 <zecke> guillaum1: I have wondered how you will do touchscreen input, keyboard input, handling of the virtual keyboard, or in one phrase "integration" with the environment :)
May 23 12:40:08 <zecke> I'm just impressed that opera mini is working
May 23 12:40:55 <Bumbl> in theory: is it possible to plug an usb hspa modem in the usb slot of the freerunner to get hsupa?
May 23 12:41:09 <edistar_> Bumbl: yes
May 23 12:41:17 <guillaum1> zecke: ok. we'll try to improve integration (with dbus features) 
May 23 12:41:55 <edistar_> Bumbl: the only thing you need is the driver, and of course a host-usb-cable
May 23 12:42:06 <edistar_> and a spare battery :P
May 23 12:45:22 <Bumbl> a spare battery won't be the problem, there are linux drivers for the modem but what do you mean with a host-usb-cable
May 23 12:46:22 <guillaum1> zecke: btw, will dbus still be the good way to interact with core features ? 
May 23 12:46:34 <edistar_> well, you need a usb cable with two 'small' plugs.. someone else here can explain that much better :)
May 23 12:47:01 <tomboy64> are there usable navigation solutions for openmoko yet?
May 23 12:47:15 <edistar_> tomboy64: afaik not quite
May 23 12:47:15 <tomboy64> (nm if they're open source or commercial)
May 23 12:47:18 <tomboy64> :(
May 23 12:47:20 <Bumbl> oh i see a kind of miniUSB to USB converter
May 23 12:47:30 <edistar_> Bumbl: yeah
May 23 12:47:35 <zecke> guillaum1: sure, dbus is there to stay
May 23 12:47:48 <tomboy64> and the card-format openmoko is sd? (secure digital?)
May 23 12:47:59 <tomboy64> uhm
May 23 12:48:03 <tomboy64> for the freerunner i mean
May 23 12:48:39 <polz> is suspend / resume working properly yet ? And if so, which pre-built kernel / rootfs should I be using ?
May 23 12:50:01 <edistar_> tomboy64: microSD, yes
May 23 12:50:21 <polz> on a gta01
May 23 13:00:01 <zecke> cya
May 23 13:15:56 <tomboy64> i wanna navigate! *whine*
May 23 13:16:04 <tomboy64> edistar_: thanks
May 23 13:18:02 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 1410 has been created by vollseil(AT)arcor.de
May 23 13:18:03 <cdbot2> * * make qtopia-x11 fails, does not find lXtst
May 23 13:18:04 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1410
May 23 13:19:35 <abraxa_> tomboy64: Go to the map data creators and whine :)
May 23 13:19:49 <tomboy64> abraxa_: :-P
May 23 13:20:23 <bmidgley> is there a new way to replace the multitap pad with a keyboard?
May 23 13:20:49 <Psi> bmidgley, the numeric pad?
May 23 13:20:57 <bmidgley> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Switching_Keyboards doesn't work (none of the packages found)
May 23 13:21:14 <Psi> oh, i was looking for that url just before
May 23 13:21:19 <bmidgley> Psi: yeah, to get the regular soft keyboard... 
May 23 13:21:33 <Psi> yeah, i want the regular one back too
May 23 13:21:34 <bmidgley> the multitap thing messes up bluetooth keyboards too (or did last i checked)
May 23 13:22:08 <Psi> i find the multitap hopeless for doing anything in terminal on the phone
May 23 13:22:16 <Psi> i cant even find a /
May 23 13:22:49 <bmidgley> and it's slow to use too
May 23 13:22:57 <Psi> yep
May 23 13:31:56 <shoragan> raster, e17 is now in debian experimental :)
May 23 13:32:12 <mjr> +1 on the multitap whining
May 23 13:35:29 <k-s> shoragan: great!
May 23 13:35:49 <k-s> shoragan: how long until it hit debian-derivates?
May 23 13:36:31 <zeno___> shoragan: wierd it just hit that, it seemed more stable than KDE to me :)
May 23 13:36:32 <shoragan> the derivates usually pull from unstable, so it'll take some time
May 23 13:36:52 <zeno___> could have something to do with my 256MB ram
May 23 13:36:58 <shoragan> :)
May 23 13:39:04 <Tanuva> shoragan: but they also pulled kde4.0 from experimental
May 23 13:39:31 <shoragan> they?
May 23 13:39:53 <shoragan> it depends on the derivates, i've no influence there ;)
May 23 13:40:06 <Tanuva> they. kubuntu for example
May 23 13:50:31 <tomboy64> i have 2 phones right now - one for private stuff, one for work. would it be possible to attach a sim-card-reader to the openmoko to - let's say use it to receive phone-calls from my private number while i'm also available from my work number?
May 23 13:51:07 <tomboy64> it would make things easier as i only had to use one headseat
May 23 13:51:10 <tomboy64> headset
May 23 13:56:19 * tomboy64 wants to run freeee
May 23 13:57:42 <raster> zeno___: u'd be surprised
May 23 13:57:45 <raster> u do have multiple apps open
May 23 13:57:50 <raster> only 1 visible, but multiple around
May 23 13:57:55 <raster> u dont want to lose state
May 23 14:15:09 <AzalynHD> tomboy64: Well, i suppose you could attach a usb sim card reader..
May 23 14:15:13 <AzalynHD> if there is such a thing.
May 23 14:15:25 <AzalynHD> since the phone supports usb host.
May 23 14:15:30 <AzalynHD> but it's usb 1.1
May 23 14:15:47 <SpeedEvil> you can't
May 23 14:15:53 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't workt hat way
May 23 14:16:03 <AzalynHD> well, you'd need a driver for it..
May 23 14:16:04 <AzalynHD> :|
May 23 14:16:12 <SpeedEvil> you need the SIM connected in a special way which the GSM firmware does not support
May 23 14:16:44 <AzalynHD> isn't dual-sim planned for a future phone model?
May 23 14:16:51 <SpeedEvil> No.
May 23 14:16:52 <AzalynHD> like gta03 or 04
May 23 14:17:02 <SpeedEvil> Not AFAIK.
May 23 14:17:13 <AzalynHD> well, i'm pretty sure i saw a page on it on the wiki
May 23 14:17:22 <SpeedEvil> There are many pages on the wiki
May 23 14:17:36 <SpeedEvil> 03 is basically 02 with a direct framebuffer
May 23 14:18:14 <SpeedEvil> 04 is 03 with a faster CPU, different LCD.
May 23 14:18:38 <SpeedEvil> And different - probably case.
May 23 14:18:44 <AzalynHD> i hope you don't mean that low-res display. heh
May 23 14:18:47 <SpeedEvil> yes
May 23 14:18:59 <AzalynHD> i seriously hope that changes... -_-
May 23 14:20:06 <josch> no
May 23 14:20:16 <josch> you wont need vga for a phone
May 23 14:21:08 <josch> we will never be able to catch up with... say... the iphone... eyecandy wise if we stay at vga because our hardware is too slow to do fullscreen animation in vga resolution
May 23 14:21:25 <SpeedEvil> GTA04 - I doubt that
May 23 14:21:55 * zash is fed up with al the OMG IPHONE OMG OMG
May 23 14:21:58 <SpeedEvil> You get sharpness benefits if your screen is double the eyes resolution.
May 23 14:22:03 <AzalynHD> won't the gta04 hardware be more powerful?
May 23 14:22:20 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: and have integrated 2D GPU, with an easy path to a 3D GPU
May 23 14:23:03 <AzalynHD> so what's the res then?
May 23 14:23:05 <AzalynHD> HVGA ?
May 23 14:23:09 <AzalynHD> in gta04
May 23 14:23:18 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, it's not well fixed
May 23 14:23:24 <SpeedEvil> 480*272 has been mentioned
May 23 14:23:45 <AzalynHD> what aspect ratio is that...? :|
May 23 14:24:05 <SpeedEvil> Dunno - I'd assume square
May 23 14:24:16 <SpeedEvil> s/re/re pixels/
May 23 14:24:16 <apt> SpeedEvil meant: Dunno - I'd assume square pixels
May 23 14:24:31 <SpeedEvil> 1:5.66666
May 23 14:24:36 <AzalynHD> 4:3 would be nice... :|
May 23 14:24:39 * mwester thinks that far too many people are hung up on "specs-manship" -- MORE PIXELS! More pixels!  We need at least  8192x4096 resolution, with 64-bit color, on our 2.0" LCD on our phone!  *sigh*
May 23 14:24:40 <SpeedEvil> 1:.566666
May 23 14:25:04 <SpeedEvil> It's more than specsmanship - in some cases.
May 23 14:25:10 <AzalynHD> mwester: i don't think that's true..
May 23 14:25:14 <mwester> If someone wants to what HD video, a cell phone is the WRONG thing for it to begin with!
May 23 14:25:21 <mwester> s/wath/watch/
May 23 14:25:33 <AzalynHD> I don't think wanting VGA is an unreasonable request.
May 23 14:25:45 <SpeedEvil> A display of 2* the eyes resolution does have sharpness benefits.
May 23 14:25:48 <AzalynHD> vga is not new after all..
May 23 14:25:49 <zash> VGA is almost overkill for a phon
May 23 14:25:50 <zash> e
May 23 14:26:31 <AzalynHD> Now if someone wanted a 16:10 aspect ratio lcd with a resolution of 1280x800 ...
May 23 14:26:50 <AzalynHD> then maybe you'd have a point. and i would agree that they'd be asking for too much from a phone.
May 23 14:26:59 <zash> AzalynHD: they should buy a laptop then?
May 23 14:28:34 <mwester> AzalynHD:  If you have the money, you can have ANYTHING built for you.  The fact is that VGA in a cell-phone form factor, with the performance you wish, and excellent battery life, etc, etc, etc, is extraordinarily expensive.  Therefore, not well suited for a mass market.  QVGA is much more reasonable, and something in the middle between those points is practical.
May 23 14:29:24 <mwester> Perhaps OM will eventually be able to have multiple product lines - including an ultra-high-end device for those with the $$$$
May 23 14:29:44 <AzalynHD> yeah but it will probably happen eventually and be standard. i just think it's nice that the gta02 is ahead of the curve now in resolution.
May 23 14:31:00 <SpeedEvil> However - I do think that 285dpi is probably overkill
May 23 14:31:03 <SpeedEvil> But not that much
May 23 14:31:20 <zash> and they use 300dpi for printing
May 23 14:31:29 <mwester> The resolution is spectacular; the first thing most people I've shown the GTA01 notice is that clarity of the LCD.  But as we've seen with the GTA02, the cost is the difficulty in doing things like full-screen video.
May 23 14:31:34 <SpeedEvil> some quick numbers and testing indicate that it's significantly sharper at 200dpi than 100dpi
May 23 14:31:39 <AzalynHD> as for gpu's
May 23 14:31:51 <AzalynHD> aren't there any decent powervr implementations that gta04 could use?
May 23 14:31:56 <AzalynHD> maybe for a 'high end' model
May 23 14:32:00 <SpeedEvil> no
May 23 14:32:38 <AzalynHD> mwester: yeah but when is the target for gta04 ?
May 23 14:32:47 <SpeedEvil> kit's no hold
May 23 14:32:53 <AzalynHD> like date.
May 23 14:32:55 <mwester> I don't know -- OM isn't particularly driven by dates.
May 23 14:33:01 <AzalynHD> i mean a LOT may change from now until then
May 23 14:33:15 <AzalynHD> given how long GTA01 and GTA02 have been in development..
May 23 14:33:31 <AzalynHD> it may be two years before GTA04 is ready..
May 23 14:33:38 <AzalynHD> by then there could be an easier solution.
May 23 14:33:55 <AzalynHD> the iphone i think will encourage SoC manufacturers to design better solutions in their chips.
May 23 14:33:59 <AzalynHD> over the next few years
May 23 14:34:08 <AzalynHD> better and low cost i mean. heh
May 23 14:34:12 <SpeedEvil> There is also the issue that where do we want to fall on the price/performance curve.
May 23 14:34:37 <SpeedEvil> Is it worth +$800 for glitzy VGA?
May 23 14:34:39 <AzalynHD> well, i think that all hangs on how successful gta02 will be.
May 23 14:34:40 <SpeedEvil> Is it worth +$80 for glitzy VGA?
May 23 14:35:03 <SpeedEvil> I think it's not implausible that GTA03 may end up as the mass market phone
May 23 14:35:07 <AzalynHD> i would pay 80 bucks extra for it.
May 23 14:35:14 <AzalynHD> i don't know about other people.
May 23 14:35:39 * mwester wonders if the $80 includes the cost of having raster develop the drivers for it?
May 23 14:35:52 <AzalynHD> well whatever then, i meant the success of the mass market model.
May 23 14:36:26 <AzalynHD> i mean, if it ends up selling millions of units, with opensource fans all over the world using it.. i would say a 'high end' and 'low end' model for GTA04 is more possible.
May 23 14:36:43 <AzalynHD> since there would be a huge market for it.
May 23 14:37:09 <mwester> SpeedEvil:  Given the timeframe for the mass-market software, and the localized nature of the 03 changes, I think your prediction may well be correct - it seems to make a lot of sense.
May 23 14:37:17 <AzalynHD> that's why i think that setting in stone what gta04 will have, and what compromises it'll make is *extremely* premature.
May 23 14:37:26 <SpeedEvil> yeah
May 23 14:37:56 <AzalynHD> it's good to have a plan, but it's also good to be flexible and wait and see what happens market-wise.
May 23 14:37:56 <SpeedEvil> I've hypothesised in the past a bastard architecture.
May 23 14:38:07 <SpeedEvil> A hacked XFb
May 23 14:38:40 <SpeedEvil> It outputs to both a VGA and a QVGA resolution framebuffer.
May 23 14:39:01 <SpeedEvil> All fast-moving stuff is done on the QVGA framebuffer.
May 23 14:40:11 <zash> smart
May 23 14:40:21 <AzalynHD> well, i won't wait for gta03 if it turns out to be the real mass-market phone. i'm buying as soon as i sell my current nokia 3250 when the gta02 comes out. i'll just 'deal' with the software incompleteness.
May 23 14:40:29 <AzalynHD> and keep up with the updates. etc
May 23 14:40:30 <SpeedEvil> And the display switches seamlessly between them.
May 23 14:40:52 <AzalynHD> SpeedEvil: would that be like when someone doesn't use a native res for an lcd?
May 23 14:41:10 <AzalynHD> like when playing a game for example..
May 23 14:41:13 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: works just fine at submultiples of the display
May 23 14:41:23 <AzalynHD> the fullscreen game will switch the res.
May 23 14:41:43 <SpeedEvil> Azalyn: 1/2 or 1/3 res is blocky, but completely sharp
May 23 14:42:03 <AzalynHD> i was curious to ask why that was not being done to be honest.
May 23 14:42:17 <AzalynHD> because i know that with desktop lcd's you can do it.
May 23 14:42:25 <AzalynHD> even though it usually ends up looking a little blurry
May 23 14:42:34 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't - if it's properly done
May 23 14:42:47 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r9ed5b5a19159 10/TODO: gsm0710muxd: add TODO file with things to take care of before 1.0 and 1.1
May 23 14:42:47 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey * r309ae0384159 10/TODO: gsm0710muxd: add more TODO entries
May 23 14:42:56 <zash> fast moving things tend to be blury anyways
May 23 14:43:11 <AzalynHD> that feature is normally for crt's because they could do arbitrary resolutions, unlike lcd's which have a 'native' res.
May 23 14:43:58 <AzalynHD> but even so, i thought it might be a good solution. i didn't mention it because i figured someone would've already thought about it and discounted the possibility. :\
May 23 14:44:30 <zash> SpeedEvil: as long as it wont flicker when it goes from qvga to vga
May 23 14:44:34 <SpeedEvil> It only works well if you expand the picture by an integer factor.
May 23 14:44:41 <SpeedEvil> zash: true
May 23 14:44:57 <SpeedEvil> For example going VGA-QVGA-160*120
May 23 14:45:08 <SpeedEvil> Which has one pixel become 4, or 16
May 23 14:47:11 <bagpuss_thecat> mjr: was the "well yes of course" directed at my question? :-)
May 23 14:52:00 <zash> SpeedEvil: so, qvga gives 103ppi
May 23 14:52:33 <zash> from 285ppi
May 23 14:54:25 <zash> and most computer screens have ~90-100 ppi
May 23 14:58:36 <AzalynHD> Is there a WQVGA ? :)
May 23 14:59:07 <AzalynHD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_QVGA
May 23 14:59:14 <AzalynHD> oh my god, i was just joking. :|
May 23 15:01:24 <zash> AzalynHD: there is shitloads of XWQVGA-ish acronyms
May 23 15:02:13 <zash> and very few of them are standardized
May 23 15:04:52 <zash> sqrt(320*320+240*240)/2.8 ~= 142
May 23 15:05:17 <zash> 103 seemed off
May 23 17:24:17 <bmidgley> Psi, mjr it's easier to work with a bt keyboard by just removing the multitap package
May 23 17:35:28 <wurp2> bmidgley: What are you doing when you don't have the bt keyboard or otherwise aren't in a position to use it?
May 23 17:36:11 <wurp2> The first thing I do after re-imaging is to remove the multitap and add back in the openmoko-keyboard anyway, but it's still a slight PITA to keep having to close the kbd when I'm using bt
May 23 17:44:05 <mafia> why
May 23 17:46:44 <zash> is there no show_onscreen_keyboard() if bluetooth_keyboad_exists?
May 23 17:47:42 <zash> ehm, + an !
May 23 17:48:07 <zash> if !bt_kbd?
May 23 17:48:43 <zash> what manages the onscreen keyboard?
May 23 17:48:54 <wurp2> zash: Apparently not
May 23 17:49:25 <wurp2> 'cause when I connect my bt kbd and e.g. go to the terminal, I have to close the sw kbd manually
May 23 17:49:37 <zash> mm
May 23 17:49:43 <wurp2> There is a daemon that manages the on screen kbd
May 23 17:50:00 <wurp2> Not sure of the name
May 23 17:50:08 <zash> phoned?
May 23 17:50:08 <wurp2> But it apparently knows nothing about bt kbds
May 23 17:50:09 <zash> neod?
May 23 17:50:16 <zash> or usb
May 23 17:50:28 <wurp2> Well, I've never connected a usb kbd
May 23 17:50:31 <wurp2> but presumably no
May 23 17:50:41 <wurp2> Since even getting usb into host mode is a manual process
May 23 17:51:00 <zash> some "is there an external kbd connected?" logic then
May 23 17:52:54 <wurp2> well, it would be nice to have a HID dbus daemon that announces when HIDs are attached/removed
May 23 17:53:14 <wurp2> then it would be easy to make the osther stuff behave properly
May 23 17:53:19 <wurp2> s/osther/other/
May 23 17:53:19 <apt> wurp2 meant: then it would be easy to make the other stuff behave properly
May 23 17:54:16 <AzalynHD> is that a bot? :|
May 23 17:54:26 <wurp2> apt is, yep
May 23 17:55:39 <AzalynHD> s/a bot/one of those weird bots/
May 23 17:55:40 <apt> AzalynHD meant: is that one of those weird bots? :|
May 23 17:55:49 <AzalynHD> hah.
May 23 17:56:21 <wurp2> ~lart AzalynHD
May 23 17:56:22 * apt crushes AzalynHD with a full height scsi disk
May 23 17:57:00 <AzalynHD> :|
May 23 17:57:06 <AzalynHD> is it a different one every time?
May 23 17:57:11 <AzalynHD> ~lart wurp2
May 23 17:57:12 <wurp2> ~lart wurp2
May 23 17:57:12 * apt moos at wurp2
May 23 17:57:22 <AzalynHD> :|
May 23 17:57:50 <AzalynHD> ~lart SpeedEvil
May 23 17:57:51 * apt burns SpeedEvil to a crisp with a laser
May 23 17:59:03 <zash> ~rape itself
May 23 17:59:04 * apt takes itself behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams
May 23 18:01:08 * SpeedEvil grabs AzalynHD, immobilises him, secures him to an operating table, duct-tapes his eyelids open, removes his eyeballs, and rotates them 90 degrees before reinstalling them.
May 23 18:01:58 <AzalynHD> what makes you think i'm a him!
May 23 18:02:08 <AzalynHD> :P
May 23 18:02:45 <zash> This is the Internet!
May 23 18:03:02 <AzalynHD> not that again... :|
May 23 18:03:20 <zash> Where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.
May 23 18:03:21 <zash> ;)
May 23 18:03:27 <AzalynHD> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/
May 23 18:03:28 <AzalynHD> :P
May 23 18:03:38 <AzalynHD> There's a howto for everything.
May 23 18:05:46 <wurp2> Does anyone know if there are plans for Zad or zhone to run alongside OM and QTopia in the grand new vision?
May 23 18:05:54 * SpeedEvil tries to think of other females in this channel.
May 23 18:06:43 <wurp2> SpeedEvil: I know of one who used to chat here a lot, but I can't think of her handle right now
May 23 18:07:07 <wurp2> She had a s&m site, I think the handle started with an a
May 23 18:07:13 <SpeedEvil> Me too, vaguely.
May 23 18:07:20 <wurp2> abraxa?
May 23 18:07:35 <wurp2> yep, her
May 23 18:08:39 <zedstar_> there was a female on the mailing list who named her dog Moko!
May 23 18:08:59 <wurp2> There are several female looking names on the mailing lists
May 23 18:09:43 <wurp2> I prefer to not make a big deal out of it - I would love for it to finally just not matter what gender someone is except when dating
May 23 18:09:53 <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
May 23 18:10:19 <SpeedEvil> It'd be so nice if the whole 'Oh a girl!' thing wasn't an issue as they were common.
May 23 18:10:47 <zedstar_> yeh who cares if they are male or female when cybering ;)
May 23 18:12:00 * SpeedEvil puts zedstar on ignore PMs.
May 23 18:12:10 <SpeedEvil> :)
May 23 18:12:29 * zedstar_ winks at speedevil
May 23 18:13:23 <zash> the internet!
May 23 18:13:35 <zash> the ASUM
May 23 18:15:45 <bagpuss_thecat> you don't want to wink at SpeedEvil. He's from Perth
May 23 18:16:20 <SpeedEvil> No I'm not.
May 23 18:16:21 <zedstar_> i should have asked him ASL first ;)
May 23 18:16:34 <Tanuva> whats bad about perth?
May 23 18:16:39 <SpeedEvil> 13/f/cali
May 23 18:16:55 <zedstar_> uhuh oh
May 23 18:18:32 <mjr> too old for me
May 23 18:18:34 <SpeedEvil> I'm actually about 20 miles sw of Perth
May 23 18:18:55 <SpeedEvil> SE I mean.
May 23 18:19:28 <SpeedEvil> (scotland, not australia)
May 23 18:19:36 <zash> {pseud,an}onymity ftw
May 23 18:20:46 <abraxa_> wurp2: Yeah?
May 23 18:20:51 <zedstar_> changing the subject slightly....anyone seen/done/got a bluetooth logger which logs to something like sqlite?
May 23 18:21:13 <SpeedEvil> I've filled in most of http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=56.1933&lon=-3.1659&zoom=12&layers=B0FT with the aid of my neo. 
May 23 18:21:23 <SpeedEvil> zedstar: for hat?
May 23 18:21:33 <SpeedEvil> zedstar: you mean GPS?
May 23 18:21:42 <zedstar_> speedevil nah bluetooth
May 23 18:22:06 <SpeedEvil> A2DP, BIP, ...
May 23 18:22:51 <zedstar_> wanna log the MAC and broadcast address and time etc to sqlite for scanned devices just wondering if anyone done this
May 23 18:23:12 <bagpuss_thecat> SpeedEvil: oh? like Auchterarder? :-)
May 23 18:23:20 <bagpuss_thecat> aah, SE
May 23 18:23:32 <bagpuss_thecat> that's even worse :-)
May 23 18:34:57 <wurp2> abraxa_: Sorry, I left the _ off to try to avoid bugging you :-)  SpeedEvil was just trying to remember women he'd seen chatting here
May 23 18:37:42 <juri_> well thats different. this time, my openmoko managed to get online, can make calls, but dosent see any of the contacts stored on my sim card.
May 23 18:38:09 <wurp2> juri_: It wasn't that long ago that it never saw contacts on the sim card
May 23 18:38:50 <wurp2> juri_: If your contacts are all ascii, I have a script that will import them all from SIM into the OM contact db
May 23 18:39:43 <wurp2> That is, it will import them assuming that whatever issue is preventing OM from seeing them doesn't also hinder my script
May 23 18:42:24 <zedstar_> btw are contacts stored in sqlite on ASU?
May 23 18:44:16 <wurp2> I know next to nothing about ASU
May 23 18:44:43 <zedstar_> i seem to remember reading that qtopia stored stuff in sqlite
May 23 18:44:51 <zedstar_> the iphone is also doing this
May 23 18:47:19 <kdean06> I think that's the case, but I left it at home so I can't check. :S
May 23 18:47:40 <kdean06> I beleive one of the lists had a survey and found that most of the data is stored in sqlite in Qtopia.
May 23 18:48:09 <ljp> yes, most data is stored in sqlite 
May 23 18:48:21 <zedstar_> i guess it makes sense...not everything needs a dbus interface!
May 23 18:48:50 <zash> not everything needs to be stored in fancy formats
May 23 18:52:27 <wurp2> Does anyone know if there are plans to migrate the QTopia distributed w/ OM to get its phone services via dbus?
May 23 18:53:58 <wurp2> Oh, hey kdean06!
May 23 18:54:04 <wurp2> Congratulations, you lucky bastard!
May 23 18:54:11 <kdean06> :D
May 23 18:54:23 <juri_> wurp2: i prefered having all my contacts on the sim, so that i could switch phones, and not lose contacts. do you have a script for going the other way?
May 23 18:54:43 <wurp2> juri_: Nope, but it's not too hard to write
May 23 18:56:08 <wurp2> kdean06: Are you still going to be doing 01 reviews?
May 23 18:56:20 <ljp> juri_: qtopia can import/export contacts to sim
May 23 18:56:22 <kdean06> For sure. :)
May 23 18:56:45 <wurp2> Yay!
May 23 18:56:46 <kdean06> I haven't done them for a while simply because buildhost hasn't make anything since the 9th.
May 23 18:57:01 <wurp2> Yeah, I bitched loud & long about the build process
May 23 18:57:03 <kdean06> I tried a GTA01 version of the ASU and it failed. I'd have reviewed it if it worked.
May 23 18:57:12 <wurp2> The end result seems to be that not much changes
May 23 18:57:24 <wurp2> I was encouraged that they're moving off monotone
May 23 18:57:51 <wurp2> I may just end up setting up an automated continuous integration host myself
May 23 18:59:00 <kdean06> As far as I know, the break was simply because the ASU stopped building.
May 23 18:59:00 <wurp2> I'll set it to email build failures to the openmoko-devel list, and either get myself kicked off the list or improve build quality :-)
May 23 18:59:06 <malik1972> kdean06: where can i find an asu gta01 image?
May 23 18:59:22 <wurp2> Oh, I see lots of complaints about the builds failing on openmoko-devel
May 23 18:59:24 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: ""
May 23 18:59:43 <wurp2> Not sure what build they are referring to... looked like the old one, not ASU
May 23 19:00:07 <kdean06> malik1972, mmontour built it himself and scp'ed it to my personal server. It failed to boot past the splash screen. My server also seems to be not responding right now. :P
May 23 19:00:20 <kdean06> SpeedEvil, Yes?
May 23 19:01:15 <malik1972> kdean06: asu killed your server?;-)
May 23 19:01:18 <SpeedEvil> kdean06: I meant 'ditto' - I was also interested
May 23 19:01:28 <SpeedEvil> oh well - if it doesn't boot...
May 23 19:01:48 <kdean06> No, I don't really know why my server is dead. :P
May 23 19:05:41 <angelr> I just wanted to inform everyone that I have edited http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MacOS_X#Apple_CDC_Ethernet_driver_10.5.x  with information on where and how to get a patched 10.5.X USB driver to allow g_ether based devices to work correctly. Please take it out for a spin and provide feedback.
May 23 19:06:02 <zash> kdean06: your server is dead? oh noes :(
May 23 19:06:12 <juri_> dead servers are bad, mmkay?
May 23 19:06:51 <malik1972> dean06:  monochromementality.com was also down 12 hours ago
May 23 19:07:02 <kdean06> Well, the server seems reponsive, doesn't have high latency, has adequate CPU et ceteral... It's just not loading. If i reload apache it works for a moment but then dies again.
May 23 19:07:10 <kdean06> Yeah. :(
May 23 19:07:22 <kdean06> I'm backing it up and dropping it on a better server.
May 23 19:08:18 <zash> kdean06: monochromementality.com ?
May 23 19:08:42 <kdean06> Yes.
May 23 19:08:43 <malik1972> kdean06: did mmontour had success with asu on gta01 or someone else?
May 23 19:09:02 <kdean06> Neither. As far as I know, there's not been a working build for GTA01.
May 23 19:09:19 <zash> kdean06: I'we been trying to mirror it, but failed
May 23 19:09:23 <zash> on my servor
May 23 19:09:32 <mmontour> kdean06: Nice to see your Freerunner pics. I hope you'll be able to provide another data point about phone-call audio quality (echo, etc.) on the Freerunner. 
May 23 19:10:11 <mmontour> malik1972: The most success I've had so far was converting the gta02 ASU image from downloads.openmoko.org to the gta01 jffs2 format.
May 23 19:10:48 <mmontour> The one I built for kdean06 was from org.openmoko.dev, not april-update (I think; it's whatever MokoMakefile had as a default at the time)
May 23 19:11:23 <kdean06> mmontour, Yeah. There's a bunch of questions I've seen on the list and I intend to answer them as soon as I have time to get them all gathered and have time to answer them.
May 23 19:11:56 <malik1972> mmontour: org.openmoko.dev?
May 23 19:12:02 <kdean06> I left the 02 at home so I can't test anything now, but I get a 3-day weekend so I should have plenty of time to do it.
May 23 19:12:25 <mmontour> malik1972: That's the branch label in the new git repository
May 23 19:12:49 <zash> yay for google cache
May 23 19:13:42 <malik1972> mmontour: how you convert jffs2 to tgz?
May 23 19:15:47 <mmontour> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Userspace_root_image#Converting_a_GTA02_image_for_GTA01 , but create a .tar.gz of the mounted directory instead of calling mkfs.jffs2
May 23 19:16:24 <kdean06> I absolutely love scp. :)
May 23 19:17:12 <malik1972> thanx
May 23 19:28:24 <balrog-kun> mickeyl: wonderful job on this gsm daemon!
May 23 19:56:35 <malsyned> Is there any info out there about why QT delivers so much better performance than GTK?  I ask here because I just read the ars article about OpenMoko switching to Qtopia.
May 23 19:56:56 <Blastur> url article
May 23 19:57:03 <malsyned> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080522-openmoko-linux-mobile-phone-ditches-gtk-gets-qt-and-e17.html
May 23 19:57:13 <woglinde> so funny
May 23 19:58:27 <woglinde> hm oh he interviewed raster it seems
May 23 19:59:22 <woglinde> and peeked at zecke's blog
May 23 20:00:18 <malsyned> Is GTK+ really that bad on mobile platforms, or is it just that Qtopia had more of the kinds of components that OpenMoko needed complete already?
May 23 20:01:04 <zash> malsyned: the last part i think
May 23 20:01:08 <malik1972> kdean06: your server is up again
May 23 20:01:30 <kdean06> I restarted Apache again. :S
May 23 20:01:32 <zash> duno how god gtk realy is for a mobile platform
May 23 20:01:41 <woglinde> malsyned read zeckes blog
May 23 20:01:49 <woglinde> gmsd is the root of al evil
May 23 20:01:58 <woglinde> qtopia stack on thisnt perfect either
May 23 20:02:02 <woglinde> but works better
May 23 20:02:09 <zash> also, nothing is perfect
May 23 20:02:11 <malik1972> kdean06: can i find the gta01 asu image on the server?
May 23 20:02:51 <malik1972> converting gives me an error: FATAL: Error inserting mtdram ... Cannot allocate memory
May 23 20:03:00 <kdean06> malik1972, If you really want it, I can give put it in a public space. But it does NOT work. 
May 23 20:03:09 <lpotter> I hear developing with gtk is a nightmare
May 23 20:04:26 <malik1972> kdean06: not sure anymore, if i want it .. i only emulate things with qemu-arm
May 23 20:05:57 <malik1972> kdean06: i guess the chances to get it run are zero
May 23 20:06:34 <kdean06> Right. It crashes, you have no X server and doesn't respond to SSH.
May 23 20:06:47 <kdean06> I mean dead. The only thing that can be said for it is that it compiled.
May 23 20:07:02 <ahven> <malik1972> converting gives me an error: FATAL: Error inserting mtdram ... Cannot allocate memory << same error
May 23 20:07:23 <malik1972> ahven: dmesg|tail
May 23 20:08:37 <malik1972> kdean06: did you tried the following: jffs2 original -> tgz -> sd -> boot from sd
May 23 20:09:33 <ahven> allocation failed: out of vmalloc space - use vmalloc=<size> to increase size.
May 23 20:10:10 <kdean06> malik1972, No. Quite honestly, it's not worth trying that for. I write my reviews from an end user perspective. I wouldn't expect my wife to do that, so I'm not going to waste my time on it. :P
May 23 20:12:29 <malik1972> ahven: honestly, i am also an end user, no idea;-)
May 23 20:13:46 <malik1972> ahven: google say, increase the size by giving grub an optional parameter
May 23 20:13:49 <bmidgley> wurp2: the openmoko keyboard doesn't show up in the repository any more
May 23 20:14:33 <malik1972> kdean06: i hope i will see more of the stuff on the freerunner before i buy it
May 23 20:16:24 <kdean06> malik1972, If you wanna play with it, the image is here. http://foreverdean.info/kevin/downloads/openmoko/Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image-glibc-ipk-P1-Snapshot-20080521-om-gta01.rootfs.jffs2
May 23 20:16:33 <kdean06> But as I said... It doesn't work. :)
May 23 20:18:16 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: 03stefan * r058e42e9e1ca 10/src/zhone: 
May 23 20:18:16 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Document the workaround for the one char invisible bug with comments in the code.
May 23 20:18:16 <CIA-43> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Stefan Schmidt <stefan@datenfreihafen.org>
May 23 20:19:32 <mmontour> ahven: Try a smaller size (e.g. 65536) for the mtdram module - as long as it's bigger than the image you're copying into it it should be OK.
May 23 20:20:43 <ahven> 65536 - no go
May 23 20:20:56 <ahven> 32768 fits though
May 23 20:21:18 <malik1972> kdean06: i guess my download hangs
May 23 20:21:32 <kdean06> :S
May 23 20:21:37 <kdean06> My server is full of suck today.
May 23 20:23:19 <malik1972> 65536 works for me
May 23 20:26:39 <malik1972> i see some boots:-)
May 23 20:28:10 <malik1972> xserver does not start: no space left on device
May 23 20:32:23 <zash> kdean06: do you have more suck than this: http://pic.zash.se/gladius-aids.jpg
May 23 20:34:23 <kdean06> I don't think so. :) Mine runs Debian, at least. :D
May 23 20:34:47 <kdean06> Celeron and Windows... geeze, host on a Neo, you'd get a speed boost.
May 23 20:35:19 <zash> kdean06: Not that i run windows on it. It did have XP on it when i got it thou
May 23 20:35:26 <zash> but i installed debian on it
May 23 20:35:32 <zash> and currently its ubuntu
May 23 20:35:44 <kdean06> No comment. :P
May 23 20:35:56 <zash> note: XP was sloooow
May 23 20:38:07 <zash> duno how they even got it to run with 64MiB RAM
May 23 20:47:09 <fenfir> lots of patience and limited access to hammers, i used to work in this computers shop and one day this guy made us install xp on his formerly windows 98 computers
May 23 20:47:58 <fenfir> it's a horrific experience
May 23 20:49:16 <tedo> you got payed per hour, i hope
May 23 20:50:41 <woglinde> fenfir urgs
May 23 20:52:26 * CVirus is turning 19 in 8 minutes
May 23 20:52:57 * zash tried to get debian onto a old computer that used to run win95 when bought
May 23 20:53:00 * zash failed
May 23 20:53:25 <zash> CVirus: pre-congrats then
May 23 20:53:41 <CVirus> thanks :-D
May 23 21:00:02 <zash> CVirus: congrats then
May 23 21:00:09 <zash> 11:00:09 PM
May 23 21:00:45 <CVirus> thanks :-D
May 23 21:09:01 <kdean06> My server was full of suck because it was being upgraded.
May 23 21:09:08 <kdean06> Neat. 
May 23 21:15:01 <ahven> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=6436+S+Oakley+Ave,+Chicago,+IL+60636&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=28.611123,60.292969&ie=UTF8&ll=41.780049,-87.680275&spn=0.00656,0.01472&t=k&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.776747,-87.681011&panoid=R4fqWJEJkVCRco2uu3GK9Q&cbp=1,248.03517600888696,,1,8.383780676689486
May 23 21:25:31 <zash> lol wut
May 23 21:55:08 <Yanroy> hi all
May 23 21:55:48 <Yanroy> quick question... I'm playing with qemu with the latest images it'll give me when I use mokomakefile to do "download-images"
May 23 21:55:56 <Yanroy> is that still the old stuff, or is that qtopia?
May 23 21:56:05 <Yanroy> and more importantly, how do I get a qwerty keyboard?
May 23 21:57:54 <zash> Yanroy: if it's black and flashy, then its asu, i think
May 23 21:58:12 <Yanroy> it's grey and orange
May 23 21:58:22 <kdean06> zash, Define "flashy". :)
May 23 21:58:24 <Yanroy> and kinda blocky... not like the mockups on the wiki
May 23 22:00:55 <zash> kdean06: freerunner1.4.swf
May 23 22:01:18 <kdean06> Yeah... ASU isn't flashy then. :D
May 23 22:01:50 <Yanroy> huh?
May 23 22:01:56 <kdean06> It still needs a lot of love visually. The image I used didn't have icons except for like... Three apps. :P
May 23 22:02:04 <kdean06> So it's black blocks on a black background. :P
May 23 22:02:08 <zash> asu != e-stuffs?
May 23 22:02:29 <Yanroy> is there a command I can run to figure out hte version?
May 23 22:02:32 <kdean06> zash, It is. It's just not looking like the flash demo, at least not right now.
May 23 22:02:34 <Yanroy> ... or to open a qwerty keyboard?
May 23 22:02:49 <kdean06> It COULD do that, but the theming is horribly broken right now, incomplete and stuff.
May 23 22:03:29 <kdean06> Yanroy, No, the QWERTY keyboard was removed from those images because it was buggy. They then put in the multitap one which broke more stuff. :)
May 23 22:03:49 <Yanroy> how can a keyboard be buggy?
May 23 22:05:16 <kdean06> Yanroy, Try browsing the net holding down the ENTER key. That's pretty much the idea.
May 23 22:05:25 <Yanroy> lol...
May 23 22:05:38 <Yanroy> seems easy enough to fix...
May 23 22:05:40 <kdean06> Or writing an e-mail. :) Or entering a contact.
May 23 22:05:50 <kdean06> I was told it was not. :P
May 23 22:05:56 <Yanroy> nice
May 23 22:06:19 <Yanroy> I hope I'm not going to have develop an entire software suite of my own to make this usable when I get one...
May 23 22:06:50 <Yanroy> I fully intend to do some minor work and bugfixes, but I'm really hoping for a functional phone
May 23 22:07:04 <Yanroy> basically, I just want a bash terminal in my pocket :P
May 23 22:08:28 <Yanroy> so does the ASU have a qwerty keyboard?  I guess I'll give up on qemu until then
May 23 22:09:16 <kdean06> Yanroy, Yes, it does, though I'm not sure the specifics of it. 
May 23 22:09:23 <kdean06> Or... It will.
May 23 22:10:27 <Yanroy> ok
May 23 22:10:29 <Yanroy> thanks
May 23 22:10:44 <Yanroy> I'll give it a try again when I see ASU being put out on the mailing list...
May 23 22:14:08 <balrog-kun> on-screen keyboards are not really handy in qemu
May 23 22:14:40 <kdean06> Yeah. The real keyboard works just fine. :)
May 23 22:16:17 <mwester> Why does my phone suddenly have a picture of a pair of boots on the display as it boot up?  <rolling-eyes>
May 23 22:17:12 <mmontour> mwester: It suggests appropriate footwear for the next stage in the process, when you stomp on it and then kick it across the room because nothing else works :)
May 23 22:17:34 <mwester> I sense the work of raster here...
May 23 22:17:34 <kdean06> mwester, Isn't it obvious? It's a boot screen!
May 23 22:17:49 <kdean06> mwester, Yes, it's rasters. Wait till it crashes, you'll have proof.
May 23 22:17:54 <mwester> And that pathetic wimper of a startup sound...
May 23 22:18:06 <kdean06> 01 or 02?
May 23 22:18:16 <mwester> Ah, there we go -- the familiar gigantic LED clock.
May 23 22:18:20 <mwester> 02
May 23 22:18:39 <kdean06> I didn't notice the whimper.
May 23 22:18:43 <kdean06> Hrm..
May 23 22:19:02 <mwester> It perplexes me why we insist on using so many pixels in full color, to emulate a seven-segment LED display. :D 
May 23 22:20:03 <kdean06> I've wondered the same, actually. I just relegate that thing to the tiny mode and put a pleasing woman in the background, unless I'm thinking of a different clock.
May 23 22:21:23 <mwester> Nope, that's the one.  I also put it in tiny mode, and change the background.  It seems a shame to take that fabulous LCD and limit it to B&W.  I get many comments on the screen, now that I pick a more dynamic image for a background.
May 23 22:22:00 <CM> mwester: I noticed the boots too
May 23 22:22:08 <CM> Couldn't make calls with that image though :(
May 23 22:22:15 <CM> Built today, om
May 23 22:22:19 <kdean06> mwester, Color does amazing things to that screen. :) http://monochromementality.com/index.php/photos/album/13/photo/95.html
May 23 22:22:56 <kdean06> What image are you using that has that clock though?
May 23 22:23:03 <mwester> CM: I just built a new image today as well; I'll test the calls. That would be unfortunate, I need that to work to test some GSM-related patches.
May 23 22:23:04 <kdean06> Oh, one you built yourself.
May 23 22:23:38 <mwester> The standard image for now; I'm building the qtopia stuff as well.  I'll try that later.
May 23 22:24:01 <CM> I couldn't get qtopia to build properly
May 23 22:24:12 <CM> som x errors, can't remember
May 23 22:25:05 <mwester> I killed the build when XorA|gone committed a change that fixed something like that; and started over.  Hopefully it will finish (it's nearly done I think)(
May 23 22:25:48 <balrog-kun> now someone is going to commit some even better fix minutes before you finish :)
May 23 22:31:05 <mwester> balrog-kun:  ;)  I'll kill the build then, and wait....
May 23 23:08:35 <juri_> can someone add an item to the wishlist for me? i don't want to set up an account for just one thing.
May 23 23:09:35 <juri_> i've looked in the source of the dialer application, and found that the length of a ringtone is hard coded. it'd be nice if either we got to set this value, or oif the audio library actually payed attention to the length, and repeated when it was *done*.
May 24 02:38:23 <mwester> Can someone give me the md5sum for the ASU snapshot jffs2 file?
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