**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 21 02:59:57 2008 Sep 21 03:01:01 when I got it, first that was disappointing, now can see progress in several areas, so getting more excited every day. even with the outstanding issues Sep 21 03:04:24 gregdude: thats true. i use qtopia and the poor audio qualitiy besides some waking ups from calls are the only issues with this distribution, i could use it as my main phone if they are solved Sep 21 03:05:39 i really dislike the keyboard - that's the main thing keeping me off (besides the practical issue of short battery life) Sep 21 03:06:51 gregdude: the keyboard is really really good for writing sms, qtopia 4.4 will probably get a better terminal keyboard replacing the matchbox one Sep 21 03:07:43 gregdude: i reconfigured the predictive one, added german language and changed the size of the keyboard, so i can use my fingers Sep 21 03:07:57 that sounds like a good start... Sep 21 03:08:41 i think "previewing" every single thing you type is really strange, though... and makes everything much slower... Sep 21 03:08:49 gregdude: as they will provide rotation there should be no problems anymore on the keyboard side Sep 21 03:09:28 gregdude: its not usable for the terminal etc thats sure Sep 21 03:11:31 or anything :) asking your PIN at the start - it's blanked out, but while typing there's the preview for anyone to see.... Adding a key for wireless network in the gui? the code is wider then the screen in preview, so you cannot even se the last few letters when typing.... Sep 21 03:12:57 but these are pretty solvable things - should just get down to modify the existing system for myself, not just adding software (and complaining about the state of things :).... Sep 21 03:13:12 gregdude: okay, i was speaking of trolltechs qtopia not om 2008.x for my opinion om should drop qtopia as soon as possible and use fso Sep 21 03:13:58 fair enough :) Sep 21 03:14:32 gregdude: the qtopia stuff should be a intermediate solution Sep 21 03:14:32 how much is the FSO just an experiment and how much is that the "future"? Sep 21 03:14:41 its the future Sep 21 03:15:23 gregdude, Yup, FSO is the future 2008.x was probably an expensive diversion. Sep 21 03:15:37 integration of qtopia was a bad idea in my opinion Sep 21 03:16:03 Then I shouldn't invest too much time into hacking this one, probably :) Sep 21 03:16:51 most applications are on the 200x side so many people use it nevertheless Sep 21 03:17:19 i tried Milestone III yesterday, but it wasn't really working for me - stuck at "connecting to dbus".... Sep 21 03:17:19 what about the shr project? Sep 21 03:18:00 gregdude: i didnt tried it really, but they provide updates, did you installed them? Sep 21 03:18:45 the ui is just a proof of concept Sep 21 03:19:08 its the right way Sep 21 03:19:23 i cannot say I spent much time with it this time :) flashed back my working 2008.9, because I wanted to use it... Sep 21 03:20:03 if fso fails om will fail as the intermediate solution is no solution and they will not deliver it with trolltechs qtopia;-) Sep 21 03:20:04 the idea is good, though, i'm interested. just need to find the time to basically start to know my freerunner from scratch again... Sep 21 03:20:42 gregdude: use a multiboot system Sep 21 03:21:06 one on the SD card, one on the flash? Sep 21 03:21:16 gregdude: yepp Sep 21 03:21:52 gregdude: i have qtopia on nand, debian+fdom+fso ms3 on sd Sep 21 03:22:09 you're right, should set it up.... another thing I didn't get around to do yet. :) Sep 21 03:22:56 gregdude: once setuped its a very good wy to test the newer stuff without touching your "main installation" Sep 21 03:23:43 You just did the things according to the wiki? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Boot_from_sd_card Sep 21 03:24:12 gregdude: i am not sure, i did it some months ago, maybe they changed something Sep 21 03:25:01 gregdude: it should be much easier now, using some scripts to setup the uboot environment properly Sep 21 03:25:30 what scripts do you mean? i could always use easier ways :) Sep 21 03:26:18 gregdude: i know that the debian installation provided a script to manipulate uboot_env Sep 21 03:26:34 gregdude: and is saw one on the mailing list Sep 21 03:27:53 gregdude: perl script mentioned here http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/support/2008-September/003037.html Sep 21 03:30:08 that looks pretty encouraging to start with "i destroyed something and cannot make it work again" ... :) Sep 21 03:32:34 gregdude: ohh, i guess he will not have the problems i had, it took me one weekend to "realive" the nand boot Sep 21 03:33:37 gregdude: good night Sep 21 06:37:52 anywhere were able to compile http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/gpio/ ? Sep 21 06:38:10 where can i get arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-gcc source/packages ? Sep 21 07:23:24 hello Sep 21 07:37:54 freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r1fdbbd7fd7f2 10/fsod/src/subsystems/Time/ (Makefile.am Time.vala): Emit Minute signal with 'struct tm' values Sep 21 07:37:55 freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07openmoko-gsoc2008 * r279de8351607 10/fsod/src/subsystems/Time/ (time-helpers.c time-helpers.vapi): add time-helpers.[c|vapi] Sep 21 08:37:34 Anyone know if its possible to backup sms's on the Qtopia 4.3 release and import them into a fresh 2008.9 install? Sep 21 08:44:46 Shlee: there is an qtmail/sms folder or something like that, you may try to copy it over Sep 21 08:45:48 Shlee: but i guess it will not work as a sql database is behind all that stuff Sep 21 08:53:37 good morning =) Sep 21 09:49:59 how do i change the screen orientation on 2008.08? Sep 21 09:54:35 with xrandr Sep 21 09:55:00 ah. Sep 21 09:55:12 its a function that i actually use from '07 Sep 21 10:28:52 hello, i've upgraded to 2008.9 and i can't install wesnoth: when i install libsdl I have: * Package libsdl-1.2-0 md5sum mismatch. Either the opkg or the package index are corrupt. Try 'opkg update'. Sep 21 10:28:58 what should i do Sep 21 10:29:15 and it's a libsdl that I compiled Sep 21 10:30:20 try to give your own compiled libsdl a higher revision number. Likely opkg is testing your package against the md5 of the package with the same revision on the server Sep 21 10:30:54 Gnutoo: on the ML somebody said to opkg -force-downgrade libboost-iostreams1.33.1_1.33.1-r1_armv4t.ipk Sep 21 10:31:06 he used ipk from used ipk from Sep 21 10:31:06 http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22124&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Sep 21 10:31:23 dolf1074, ok thanks Sep 21 10:31:41 Zorkman_, yes i know that...but the problem is different here Sep 21 10:32:04 ok Sep 21 10:32:05 dolf1074, how do i do that without recompiling? Sep 21 10:32:35 Zorkman_, just renaming it will work? Sep 21 10:32:47 don't know Sep 21 10:33:01 Gnutoo: don't know, haven't tried it myself Sep 21 10:33:16 Zorkman, ok Sep 21 10:53:12 I've also opkg: Invalid tar header checksum ...can I just ignore it? Sep 21 10:56:41 hi all Sep 21 10:56:44 Zorkman: !!! Sep 21 10:56:57 llo cga! Sep 21 10:57:16 2008.9 lose /etc/resolv.conf all the time. how can i solve this? Sep 21 10:57:17 hello Sep 21 10:58:45 tangogps question: is there a way i could store .osm files selectively exported from openstreetmap.org in FR to get around? Sep 21 10:58:51 cga: see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking, under the /etc/resolv.conf explanation Sep 21 10:58:53 and 2008.9 doesn't show the illume config tool in the top panel Sep 21 10:58:59 ok dolf1074 thanks Sep 21 10:59:03 cga: i'm populating my SD card at the moment, i'll see if I have the same error Sep 21 10:59:12 ok Sep 21 10:59:18 found it http://n2.nabble.com/How-to-create-offline-maps--td722864.html Sep 21 11:02:04 what's the name for the illume config tool in opkg??? Sep 21 11:02:42 question about OE, can i search some *.bb recipe file by keyword, or description Sep 21 11:03:02 i'm using a new 8GB sandisk SD card and I always get a kernel panic when booting, anybody know what to do Sep 21 11:03:32 cga: there is illume-config-illume to get the spanner back Sep 21 11:03:43 Zorkman, you may post the log, so people can help Sep 21 11:04:01 Zorkman: cool thanks. i'm confused between packages with similar names Sep 21 11:04:10 cga, illume-config Sep 21 11:04:18 Openfree: how to post a log when i can't boot? Sep 21 11:04:35 Temris, cga: if i'm not mistaking illume-config only gives the querty button Sep 21 11:04:48 Temris, cga: illume-config-illume is needed fot the spanner Sep 21 11:05:09 on 2008.9 it gave me also configuration Sep 21 11:05:30 aha, only have experience with 2008.8 Sep 21 11:05:32 Zorkman, can u route out the kernel printk log to serial console using debug board? Sep 21 11:05:33 ah Sep 21 11:06:09 Openfree: don't have debugboard.. Sep 21 11:06:37 willst du in meine bande .?! wenn ja dann antworte mit "ja" & wenn nicht bitte mit "nein" antworten .!° Sep 21 11:06:53 rofl Sep 21 11:06:58 bitte bei Fl4v3R melden^^ Sep 21 11:07:05 =D Sep 21 11:07:43 thanks Zorkman Temris. now i have the spanner and the keyboard Sep 21 11:09:12 Zorkman, alternative way is just dump to the screen, set proper kernal parameter, "quiet=0 loglevel=9" Sep 21 11:10:21 hi, is the fdom image broken? checksum is same, but there are problems with extrakting some dir since there parent folders do not exist Sep 21 11:11:27 Openfree: I don't know how to do that, i will try to google it, but first i'm going to eat Sep 21 11:12:07 jrei, which version do u use, i have no problem with 0813 Sep 21 11:12:31 Openfree: 14-sep-2008 11:33 81M Sep 21 11:12:31 Zorkman, it's in u-boot env Sep 21 11:12:56 i can't install the new wesnoth...on om2008.9.i think i'll build it against om2008.9 Sep 21 11:13:01 it will be easier Sep 21 11:14:10 Openfree: can you tell me if /usr/lib/terminfo is a link oder a dir Sep 21 11:15:11 jrei, sorry, i'm wrong, i have used the jffs2 image , not the tarball Sep 21 11:15:36 Openfree: k, thanks Sep 21 11:19:27 jrei, i've tried untar the ball in my host computer, and exactly as u met, usr/lib/terminfo link to ../share/terminfo Sep 21 11:19:55 some err, like "tar: var/run/utmp: Cannot open: No such file or directory" Sep 21 11:19:59 Zorkman: known bug Sep 21 11:20:22 the partition table of your sdcard is corrupted Sep 21 11:20:33 try to boot from flash Sep 21 11:20:54 Openfree: there are some brocken links in the tar ball Sep 21 11:21:33 Openfree: i guess they belong to a different user, when the tar was created Sep 21 11:21:48 , is that fixed? Sep 21 11:22:47 maybe its not that pathfixed as it was named afterall ^^ Sep 21 11:23:19 i don't think so Sep 21 12:24:00 mmmm Sep 21 12:24:09 why does opkg autoremove fail? Sep 21 12:31:04 how do i set the illume keyboard to default and remove qtopia keyboard in 2008.9???? qtopia kdb sucks Sep 21 12:31:46 cga: install illume-config and restart Sep 21 12:32:43 jrei: done already. but after that qtopia it's still there and it's the default kbd Sep 21 12:33:13 hm, on my system it changed after the reboot Sep 21 12:34:26 I just flashed FSO milstone 3. Is it correct that the only opkg configuration file that I need is th following? http://downloads.freesmartphone.org/fso-testing/conf/local.conf (I am not afraid of new packages breaking th system) Sep 21 12:35:03 jrei: reinstalling with -force-reinstall and rebooting. let's see if it works Sep 21 12:35:44 cga: i just used the grafikal installer on the freerunner Sep 21 12:36:25 jrei: it's your choice.... i prefere to ssh and use the terminal Sep 21 12:37:12 who doesn't ;) Sep 21 12:37:39 you apparently :P Sep 21 12:38:20 :-P Sep 21 12:39:32 does anyone know a howto build a tar from these jffs2 files, the fdom tar is broken Sep 21 12:40:05 jrei, It isn't broken Sep 21 12:40:08 give me a sec, i'll find it Sep 21 12:40:14 just download version, from mirror Sep 21 12:40:20 not from main link. Sep 21 12:40:40 jrei: ok now it works Sep 21 12:40:52 max_posedon: can you point me to a proper tar? Sep 21 12:41:04 cga: *d* Sep 21 12:41:09 ?_? Sep 21 12:41:12 http://openmoko.truebox.co.uk/mirror/compartida.net/Fat_and_Dirty_OM.200808-updates.20080913.rootfs.tar.gz Sep 21 12:41:25 cga: thumbsup Sep 21 12:41:31 ok =) Sep 21 12:41:32 max_posedon: thanks Sep 21 12:42:03 jrei: i use weecaht-curses in a terminal , i can't see emoticons Sep 21 12:42:04 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Userspace_root_image and follow: Mount on loopback device Sep 21 12:48:10 is there a ":" on the Terminal keyboard? Sep 21 12:48:31 LionKMP, shift+; Sep 21 12:49:09 :-) thanks Sep 21 13:02:22 max_posedon: hm, the paths of that tar are wrong, and /usr/lib/terminfo and /tmp are empty files. Or i am still making a mistake Sep 21 13:03:16 yes, path are wrong, as I remember, all files putted inside /var/tmp Sep 21 13:03:24 you just need move them Sep 21 13:03:47 (cd /vat/tmp; ls -> you will see root folder) Sep 21 13:03:56 i know Sep 21 13:04:18 but there are problems untaring var/tmp/lost&found ... Sep 21 13:05:01 I haven't this problem, to wish fs are you trying untar? Sep 21 13:05:22 ext2 Sep 21 13:05:45 you can open tar, just with mc (for example) and copy only specified folders. Sep 21 13:07:37 now i am getting Sep 21 13:07:38 var/tmp/root/media/realroot/ Sep 21 13:07:38 tar: var/tmp/root: unplausibel alter Zeitstempel 1970-01-01 01:00:00 Sep 21 13:08:29 why is the media dir included??? Sep 21 13:08:49 because hal use this directory for mounting Sep 21 13:09:12 with all its subdirs? Sep 21 13:10:15 I don't know, may be, I didn't think about it, I just untar to microsd, move folders, and it works. Sep 21 13:11:03 i'd like to, but tar is complaining. Sep 21 13:14:20 keyboard keeps on resetting to the old one, after I had the cool keyboard from "illume-config". How to get that back without reboot? Sep 21 13:14:54 e.g. I installed something, and keyboard in my terminal was reset to old ASU keyboard. (happened 3 times today) Sep 21 13:15:10 then I reboot to get back the cool full keyboard. Any faster way than reboot? Sep 21 13:17:53 how to open terminal in debian/fso? Sep 21 13:19:25 LionKMP switching keyboards does not dissable the qtopia one Sep 21 13:20:17 dns53: can I get back the "switched one" if qtopia overtakes? (currently I always reboot to get it back) Sep 21 13:22:11 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate Short answer: Add the line export QTOPIA_NO_VIRTUAL_KEYBOARD=1 into the file /etc/X11/Xsession.d/89qtopia. Sep 21 13:23:17 oh, yes, Iost that by flashing 2008.9 yesterday! thanks for reminding! Sep 21 13:23:28 I try! Sep 21 13:23:42 s/Iost/I lost/ Sep 21 13:26:22 Hello, does anyone know how to change the keyboard translation table on the freerunner? Sep 21 13:27:49 translation? Sep 21 13:27:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate has some notes Sep 21 13:28:07 hehe, the ultimate answer Sep 21 13:29:24 I'm trying to get the latin1 codes using another input method Sep 21 13:29:51 Anyone know how much data is stored on the SD memorycard? Id like to flash from Qtopia to 2008.9 and keep my SMSs Sep 21 13:33:42 are FSO feeds already up again? Sep 21 13:33:51 heard a while ago that bearstech feeds didn't work anymore Sep 21 13:36:24 20070606, is there no newer Minimo? Sep 21 13:36:48 seems mozilla renamed the project to Fennec and does not provide Om builds? Sep 21 13:37:00 MrShleee: print them :) Sep 21 13:41:25 i did a mistake while flashing. unfortunately i tried flashing the uImage into the uboot section due to an typo. now every try to flash the device aborts with: No such Alternate Setting: "...". How to fix that? :S Sep 21 13:42:10 tuqs: boot into NOR and flash uboot and everything else? Sep 21 13:42:54 (boot into nor by holding aux and pressing power) Sep 21 13:43:03 and next time you could try NeoTool to avoid typos in commands :( Sep 21 13:43:41 okay, thanks Sep 21 13:43:48 why doesn't anyone make an ipk for duke 3d? Sep 21 13:44:06 someone has Sep 21 13:44:19 do you know where it is? Sep 21 13:44:32 the data files are still copywritten the source is gpl Sep 21 13:47:13 I can't find libsdl-1.2-0_1.2.9-r5_armv4t.opk Sep 21 13:47:13 libsdl-mixer-1.2-0_1.2.6-r2_armv4t.opk Sep 21 13:47:13 libsdl-ttf_2.0.3-r0_armv4t.opk Sep 21 13:47:19 ( i use the fso testing feeds) Sep 21 13:47:37 i'll try to search some other feeds Sep 21 13:48:49 the 2008.8 feeds seem to have them Sep 21 13:49:45 opkg install -nodeps Sep 21 13:50:20 opkg install http://downloads.openmoko.org/repository/Om2008.8/armv4t/libsdl-mixer-1.2-0_1.2.6-r2_armv4t.opk gives an md5 error Sep 21 13:50:29 the different versions don't seem to matter if you have the right version Sep 21 13:50:55 ah, thanks Sep 21 14:09:25 Hi there Sep 21 14:09:33 is there a volume control? Sep 21 14:09:35 hi Sep 21 14:09:45 What's the easiest way to temporarily add/change boot parameters in uboot? Sep 21 14:09:48 There's something like 40 or so ;) Sep 21 14:09:56 (other than alsamixer, a graphical one maybe) Sep 21 14:10:17 qalsamixer :) Sep 21 14:11:44 not in om 2008.8 :( Sep 21 14:12:02 .9 Sep 21 14:13:32 is there a way to import contacts from somewhere Sep 21 14:13:45 jrei: yes! vcf: Sep 21 14:13:52 jey :) Sep 21 14:14:02 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Import_Vcf_Contacts Sep 21 14:19:56 Recommend the 2008.9 release over Qtopia? or is more work needed before it's a stable phone? Sep 21 14:20:21 a lot more imho (but I am just a beginner user) Sep 21 14:20:44 use both and find out? Sep 21 14:21:32 I'm flashing as we speak, just looking for the public opinion. Sep 21 14:22:00 MrShleee: I wouldn't count on public opinion much Sep 21 14:22:48 hi, how can i add a wallpaper to the om2008 theme? Sep 21 14:24:52 Thee of little faith Sep 21 14:26:15 faith is overrated Sep 21 14:26:39 just like science Sep 21 14:28:03 it's like gravity, it's just a theory Sep 21 14:28:56 but its an working therory Sep 21 14:29:23 clearly you haven't read the article on "intelligent falling" Sep 21 14:30:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling (if it's on wikipedia, it HAS to be true) Sep 21 14:40:12 #openmoko-cdevel Sep 21 14:49:12 when i type "apm" in the terminal of FSO it returns nothing (just a blank line) Sep 21 14:49:18 is there a different command in FSO? Sep 21 14:50:53 When I try the standard "ssh root@192.168.0.202" I get "Connection refused". Why? Sep 21 14:52:35 mm: did you set up networking with FR? Sep 21 14:53:02 ssh -l root IP Sep 21 14:53:38 user@host is proper too, lion Sep 21 14:53:38 hm, ignore, it works with @ too. Cool :) Sep 21 14:54:14 viq: I set up networking by hand, using "modprobe usbnet" and ifconfig Sep 21 14:54:37 I needed to disable mandrvia firewall to get this working (however some rule changes should be enough) Sep 21 14:54:38 mm: and what's the address of you "normal" network? Sep 21 14:54:49 viq: Or are you asking if I set up networking on the FR itself? Sep 21 14:55:10 FR has usb network enabled by default if you use om 2008.8. Sep 21 14:55:49 viq: There is no normal network. Just my asus eee and the FR Sep 21 14:56:08 eee is not connected to any network? Sep 21 14:56:27 mm, "ping 192.168.0.202" ... if you don't get replies, then the usb networking between the phone and your computer is not setup Sep 21 14:56:46 if it does reply, but you still can't ssh, then the sshd isn't running on the phone Sep 21 14:57:35 ping 192.168.0.200 and ping 192.168.0.202 both work Sep 21 14:58:19 On the FR, I am using qtopia. How do I find if sshd is running? Sep 21 14:58:32 "pgrep -l dropbear" Sep 21 14:59:55 so either sshd isn't running, or you setup your networking very wrongly :P Sep 21 15:03:09 pgrep -l dropbear returns nothing Sep 21 15:04:01 ok, then that's the problem Sep 21 15:04:18 "/etc/init.d/dropbear start" should start it Sep 21 15:06:25 Starting Dropbear SSH server: Segmentation Fault Sep 21 15:06:40 yeah, you have an issue :P Sep 21 15:07:12 if it's not an issue for you to re-flash the phone, i would recommend that... it'd be the simplest solution Sep 21 15:07:22 Does that snake game with the accelerometers work yet? Sep 21 15:07:42 Which distribution might I try? Sep 21 15:08:01 you should be able to reinstall qtopia Sep 21 15:08:22 spydon, "work" is such a relative phrase Sep 21 15:08:29 under microsofts use of the word, sure Sep 21 15:08:47 ieatlint, ^^. where can I get it then? :P Sep 21 15:08:50 I don't get why reinstalling would help - its not that I have done anything much since installing - or is installing flakey? Sep 21 15:09:49 http://tehinterweb.com/snake is the beta version, not changed since yesterday morning (that's the bin, .c/.h for source) Sep 21 15:11:32 mm which one have u tried? Sep 21 15:11:52 oh, and it requires libecore-config, and the package is in the fso trees and i'm told installs fine on 2008.9 Sep 21 15:11:53 have u tried fdom? Sep 21 15:12:38 I have tried networking only on Qtopia. Sep 21 15:14:09 hmm weird now opkg cant get a lock and its not packagekitd... Sep 21 15:15:41 ill just reboot it Sep 21 15:21:39 have anyone of you seen a RSS reader that is stable on the OpenMoko? Sep 21 15:22:04 I'd like to read my news on the way to/from work and tried using minimo and google's reader for the iPhone Sep 21 15:22:20 that worked kind of OK but minimo still isn't very reliable Sep 21 15:22:40 I basically spent 10 minutes struggling with gprs and minimo, and 5 minutes with actual reading :P Sep 21 15:23:47 so go look for a gtk rss reader that fits well onto the freerunner screen, or write one :P Sep 21 15:26:59 what 'hold down AUX' means? Sep 21 15:27:08 totally awesome ietlint! Sep 21 15:27:29 are you the author? Sep 21 15:27:33 Tuju, the button on the top left of the phone is the AUX button Sep 21 15:27:39 spydon, yes Sep 21 15:27:54 ieatlint: ah, didn't even notice that there is more than one button :) Sep 21 15:27:57 i have a lot of expansion planned for it Sep 21 15:27:57 ieatlint: thanks Sep 21 15:28:16 :) Sep 21 15:28:31 nice, will you release it in the community repos when you have expanded it? Sep 21 15:28:52 probably Sep 21 15:29:34 i've got a list of projects i'm working on... Sep 21 15:31:48 spydon, oh, btw, an important note... to quit, simply spike the Z axis (eg, drop the phone ~3inches onto your lap) Sep 21 15:31:57 creating a proper interface is on my todo list :) Sep 21 15:32:28 hehe that was why it "crashed" when I putted it on the table ^^ Sep 21 15:32:50 yep... it was the easiest way to handle it without writing a proper ui Sep 21 15:33:04 it will also quit if you run the snake into itself (a difficult task) Sep 21 15:33:33 hehe yeah I tried Sep 21 15:33:35 i need to adjust a lot of the things, like how much the snake grows and such, and i've the concepts laid out to implement maps Sep 21 15:34:21 it will support maps based on xpm images... you make an xpm image, and can load it as a map, nothing more needed Sep 21 15:34:51 ah so then its quite easy to make your own maps, huh? Sep 21 15:35:05 I need a twitter client Sep 21 15:35:12 it's a working concept, unimplemented Sep 21 15:35:53 yeah Sep 21 15:35:54 ok, wrong channel. Sep 21 15:44:29 Hello Sep 21 15:44:33 i need some help with opkg Sep 21 15:44:41 i am trying to use opkg update Sep 21 15:44:54 but all im getting are "signature check failed" Sep 21 15:44:55 s' Sep 21 15:45:12 you never will get success with signatures Sep 21 15:45:17 ignore those errors Sep 21 15:45:54 oh, with the new FSO image I can play ogg files without jitter! :D Sep 21 15:46:16 oki thanks Sep 21 15:53:05 so im trying to install Minimo Sep 21 15:53:15 but im missing a bunch of dependencies Sep 21 15:53:32 wiki tells me to try opkg install libfreetype6 Sep 21 15:53:44 but i got *cannot find package libfreetype6 Sep 21 15:53:46 :-S Sep 21 15:53:55 dns is configured Sep 21 15:57:02 how big the rootfs is? Sep 21 15:57:43 which is the best image now? FSO or Qtopia? Sep 21 15:58:18 Tuju, haha starting wars? ;] Sep 21 15:58:28 i like fso better, though people may argue. Sep 21 15:58:30 TAsn: maybe...maybee.... :) Sep 21 15:58:46 * TAsn is taking cover. Sep 21 15:58:53 I don't like qt. Sep 21 15:58:59 * TAsn is heading to the bunker. Sep 21 15:58:59 ;] Sep 21 15:59:17 let's say that I use KDE on desktop, so I probably prefer something Qt based, but also i'd prefer higher functionality as everything is so early development still. Sep 21 15:59:39 Tuju: FSO if you are a developer; Qtopia if you want a phone. Sep 21 15:59:43 j/k gtg. though i must add i use fso, though i think qtopia is more mature. especially since fso is just the framework Sep 21 15:59:50 No battles to have; facts are facts! Sep 21 16:00:00 mwester thanks for clear answer! :) Sep 21 16:00:01 mwester, I wish you were right. Sep 21 16:00:24 though wars are usually started without any relation to facts or reason ;] Sep 21 16:00:40 /join #moko-philosophy Sep 21 16:00:41 ;] Sep 21 16:01:54 i'm too old for wars already :-/ Sep 21 16:02:06 make all, not wars. Sep 21 16:03:01 can you update both FSO and Qtopia with pkg-management in-device or is either one only firmware updated? Sep 21 16:03:42 * Tuju still wonders the size of rootfs after 163MB downlad and still going Sep 21 16:05:07 Tuju: FSO - yes. Qtopia - not working for various reasons at this time. Sep 21 16:05:27 mwester ack, I'll put FSO then. Sep 21 16:05:57 mwester: oscillating GSM. what can be done to help you with this? Sep 21 16:06:11 I'm on the latest testing-image now Sep 21 16:06:26 Tuju: I'm really serious about the distinction though -- FSO is a framework, a programming API with a slapped-in GUI (zhone) to test that programming API. It's very incomplete as a phone. Sep 21 16:06:31 Qtopia is the other way around. Sep 21 16:06:46 ceda: FSO? Sep 21 16:06:50 mwester: yes Sep 21 16:07:09 off downloads.freesmartphone.org Sep 21 16:07:16 mwester perhaps i could put both in, FSO into card and Qtopia into internal flash. Sep 21 16:07:21 s/off/from/ Sep 21 16:07:22 ceda meant: from downloads.freesmartphone.org Sep 21 16:07:43 apt: your right little bot Sep 21 16:07:49 Tuju: That's a good idea. I have multiple images on my phones, and boot into the one of interest. Sep 21 16:09:13 ceda: If you get a log from FSO (mickey explains how to do that in his announcement email IIRC); edit the log to remove or obscure your PIN, phone numbers, and other private data, and pastebin that, that would help. Sep 21 16:09:41 hello, i've a problem with moko makefile: http://pastebin.com/m61d219f0 Sep 21 16:09:52 what should i do? is it a known problem? Sep 21 16:13:50 hi all Sep 21 16:15:09 I'm trying to use matchbox-window-manager with xfce4; the wiki says to remove xfwm4 and modify /usr/bin/zhone-session to start up matchbox, but when I remove xfwm4, apt removes automatically also xfce4 Sep 21 16:15:17 is there a way to avoid this? Sep 21 16:16:01 mwester: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenmokoFramework/Status_Update_4#Best_way_to_hand_us_debug_logs Sep 21 16:16:06 that way? Sep 21 16:18:49 dfu_upload error -62 Sep 21 16:20:25 Fradeve: how many files does xfce4 have? Sep 21 16:22:26 hello, how can i change my wallpaper on the fr? I am using Qtopi Sep 21 16:22:30 Qtopia* Sep 21 16:23:14 mwester: shouldn't all fr owners be developers? ;) Sep 21 16:26:49 lindi-: ;) Yes. But after a year, even developers need to show results if they wish continued funding. Sep 21 16:27:02 * mwester wants new toys. Sep 21 16:27:28 mwester: http://wendt.se/software/openmoko/ticket-1024/frameworkd-080921.log Sep 21 16:27:31 ceda: Yep - that's the wya. Sep 21 16:27:53 mwester: I noticed two times when the UI said "No service" Sep 21 16:27:59 during that log capture Sep 21 16:29:08 mwester, i made a wallpaper for the fr. where do i store it so i can change make it my wallpaper from the qtopia settings-menu? Sep 21 16:30:05 yabo: anywhere that qtopia is set to search for images. If you have an sd card, and it's mounted on /media/card, put it there -- and then tell qtopia to rescan. Sep 21 16:30:25 okidoki, thank you! Sep 21 16:30:35 "S COMVIQ" ? Sep 21 16:30:43 mwester: yes? Sep 21 16:31:14 Is that a valid carrier name? Sep 21 16:31:17 it's been like that all the time. Other networks looks like "vodafone SE" and "Telia SE" but Tele2 looks like that Sep 21 16:31:21 btw mwester, does my wallpaper need to be in a specific format? Sep 21 16:31:25 ie filetype Sep 21 16:31:37 yabo: Dunno, you'll have to read the qtopia docs. I use jpg. Sep 21 16:31:42 ok Sep 21 16:31:44 mwester: it's the first network I got working with GPRS, I can place calls and send/receive SMS Sep 21 16:32:03 how do i tell qtopia to rescan? Sep 21 16:32:15 No problem; it clearly is working ok, it just looked very odd as a carrier name. Sep 21 16:32:18 mwester: I can change SIM card (carrier) if you want to and redo Sep 21 16:32:36 yabo: device menu - you'll have to poke about a bit; don't remember off the top of my head. Sep 21 16:32:50 ceda: If you can do that, does it have the same problem? Sep 21 16:33:26 lindi-: what do you want to say with "how many files does xfce4 have"? Sep 21 16:33:39 Fradeve: yeah, how many files are part of the xfce4 package Sep 21 16:33:42 hi, is it possible to extract the phonenumbers from the SIM card? Sep 21 16:33:50 bipak: zhone does it Sep 21 16:33:51 mwester: I'll redo with another carrier just to be sure that the problem is there with this image Sep 21 16:34:01 lindi-: 12 Sep 21 16:34:01 bipak: so yes Sep 21 16:34:04 lindi-: ah ok Sep 21 16:34:16 Fradeve: ah, so it's not just empty meta package then? Sep 21 16:34:17 so i need to install zhone on 2008.9? does that work? Sep 21 16:34:36 lindi-: ahhhh wait... yeah probably it's a metapackage Sep 21 16:34:46 Fradeve: how can it be meta package if it has 12 files? Sep 21 16:35:02 bipak: i haven't yet managed to build 2008.9 Sep 21 16:35:06 lindi-: probably I'm wrong, let's search Sep 21 16:35:07 bipak: hard to comment :) Sep 21 16:35:49 i just used the tar file Sep 21 16:36:04 ceda: it's definitely the same problem. I didn't look at the timing yet, but the symptoms are consistent. Sep 21 16:36:26 mwester, i think im doing it wrong.. I put bg.jpeg in /mnt/card/wallpapers and hit "Rescan documents" on Devtools. then i headed to Qtopia Settings Appearance and tried to change my wallpaper. what do you do when you change your wallpaper? Sep 21 16:36:59 /mnt/card isn't right -- it would be /media/card Sep 21 16:37:08 oh Sep 21 16:37:27 mwester: ok. I'm booting now with my everyday SIM which uses another carrier Sep 21 16:37:32 And make sure to give it a minute or two to do the scan; it searches the filesystem and updates a SQL database with the locations of the media files. Sep 21 16:38:45 oki Sep 21 16:39:44 it didnt appear in the list Sep 21 16:41:26 the Image viewer finds the picture though Sep 21 16:41:56 yabo: try another format? Sep 21 16:42:43 alrigh Sep 21 16:42:43 t Sep 21 16:42:45 or just .jpg (it might not look at all files, but only those with specific extensions) Sep 21 16:45:11 mwester: looks like the PIN is remembered (I entered it when the phone booted up first, before I killall'ed python ...). Is that gsm0710d? Sep 21 16:46:05 mwester: the signal strength is different with the carrier I'm using now. Guess it's using another physical end point as well Sep 21 16:47:18 antenna tower Sep 21 16:48:03 where is the original background-image stored? Sep 21 16:48:49 where would i go to submit feature requests? Sep 21 16:49:13 mwester: last question, how long do you want the capture period to be? I've seen "No service" twice now Sep 21 16:50:11 and there it went down once more Sep 21 16:52:21 <_alcik_> Hello everyone Sep 21 16:52:43 <_alcik_> anyone can answer some qtopia questions? Sep 21 16:52:51 mwester: http://wendt.se/software/openmoko/ticket-1024/frameworkd-080921-second-carrier-telia.log Sep 21 16:52:57 the second run Sep 21 16:56:34 <[Rui]__> hi Sep 21 17:03:22 <[Rui]__> hi, my connection's really unstable today Sep 21 17:04:19 so, when im connected to my phone with ssh/usb, is there some easier way to copy files to the phone from my computer than to upload to the internet and then wget from the phone? Sep 21 17:04:44 yabo: scp Sep 21 17:04:51 my first rootfs backup failed, around 250MB phone screen went white and it rebooted. Sep 21 17:05:08 <[Rui]__> so hey, how can I know & set my current qtopia profile _NOT_ from the GUI Sep 21 17:05:10 second is going, if it fails too, I'm going to reflash it anyway. Sep 21 17:05:16 scp root@192.168.0.202:/path/to/file Sep 21 17:06:04 <[Rui]__> I really want to have my new rotate program turn it into silent profile when I turn it down :) Sep 21 17:06:38 i'd like apm to turn off deep sleep mode when charging Sep 21 17:08:25 thanks Wonka Sep 21 17:14:18 ceda: Thanks - same problem on that SIM too. Sep 21 17:15:06 mwester_: your welcome, I'm glad I can help Sep 21 17:19:05 dfu_upload error -62 - it fails at 258MB. Sep 21 17:19:30 that's it, i'm flashing it over, backups or not. Sep 21 17:34:02 is it possible to write flash card over usb? Sep 21 17:36:42 http://www.neopwn.com/ Sep 21 17:36:44 lol ;] Sep 21 17:39:22 TAsnn, ownage ^^ Sep 21 17:39:49 spydon, aye! Sep 21 17:40:12 shall i phone the office or own the network? Sep 21 17:40:14 ;] Sep 21 17:40:24 my friend already compiled a lot of bt utils Sep 21 17:40:35 ah ok...rt73...because i wondered how they did packet injection/monitor etc... with the current firmware... Sep 21 17:40:36 once i have time i will make packages out of them (he is lazy) Sep 21 17:40:43 Gnutoo, hehe yeah. Sep 21 17:40:55 TAsnn: unfortunately you can only buy it. Sep 21 17:41:02 viq, really? Sep 21 17:41:13 TAsnn: well, try finding a download. Sep 21 17:41:17 doesn't that violate gpl? Sep 21 17:41:28 viq, anyhow, i aint gonna use it anyway. Sep 21 17:41:28 ;] Sep 21 17:41:33 :P Sep 21 17:42:16 can you watch flash video (.flv) on the freerunner? Sep 21 17:42:26 hehe why would you need a web server on it?! :P Sep 21 17:44:20 TAsnn, it depends...if they provide a paper that permit you to order the sources on cd...it's fine... Sep 21 17:48:40 Gnutoo, nope Sep 21 17:49:22 for instance, i can't start selling copies of debians cds for $50 advertising it as a full os, but give you debian.org as a free place to get it Sep 21 17:49:29 gpl says reasonable costs only Sep 21 17:49:29 qtopia kernel doesn't boot. Sep 21 17:49:49 Starting kernel ... -- and that's it. Sep 21 17:49:53 ieatlint, yes resonable cost...for the source...not the binaries... Sep 21 17:50:29 hmm Sep 21 17:51:07 yabo, we have mplayer, but you could try to patch it to get glamo support to get youtube videos that aren't anymore flv(.mp4) Sep 21 17:51:51 <[Rui]__> has anyone noticed the accelerometers hanging? Sep 21 17:52:09 by the way iceweasel will be half usable and slow... Sep 21 17:52:30 i've tried firefox 3.1 on the freerunner...and there were issues with ssl: Sep 21 17:53:18 if you goes to a webpage where there is a certificate to accept the windows that imports the certificate is too small to be usable... Sep 21 17:53:38 but if you import the certificate via ssh -Y you can use it... Sep 21 17:55:50 <[Rui]__> I think I'm getting hangs while reading from events3 Sep 21 17:57:10 Gnutoo, how fast is it? Sep 21 17:57:54 TAsnn, slow to load...after you can navigate...i've tried only with one page at the same time Sep 21 17:58:02 i c. Sep 21 17:58:06 well i like minimo anyway ;] Sep 21 17:58:13 though it also takes ages to load. Sep 21 17:58:19 minimo doesn't have ssl Sep 21 17:58:25 are you sure? Sep 21 17:58:27 nor midori Sep 21 17:58:29 i think you are wrong. Sep 21 17:58:29 yes Sep 21 17:58:35 sec i will confirm. Sep 21 17:58:37 ok Sep 21 17:58:49 since i remember i used gmail on it. Sep 21 17:58:59 there is also the openmoko-browser2 that doens't have it... Sep 21 17:59:12 but I tried inside om2008.8 not 2008.9 Sep 21 17:59:18 but moko broweser sucks ass ;] Sep 21 17:59:31 Note: dfu-util seems to consistently fail with a "-62" error on 64-bit Linux. -- right. Sep 21 17:59:56 Gnutoo, any ideas for a light weight ssled page+ Sep 21 17:59:57 ? Sep 21 18:00:12 TAsnn, what do you need to see? Sep 21 18:00:20 TAsnn, only your mail? Sep 21 18:00:31 Gnutoo, no, i want to check if ssl works Sep 21 18:00:32 Okay, I have a question. Are Google Android phones going to be open too? Sep 21 18:00:42 parodyoflanguage, iirc no. Sep 21 18:00:44 ah page...not package Sep 21 18:00:53 aye ;] Sep 21 18:01:05 https://webmail.no-log.org/src/login.php Sep 21 18:01:09 too long Sep 21 18:01:11 parodyoflanguage: "open" in that network operators can use it without a license fee, not in that consumers can run their own code on them. Sep 21 18:01:19 i will try paypal Sep 21 18:01:26 cjb: :( Sep 21 18:01:28 (I read someting about a $100 signing fee per app or something weird. I guess it's all up to the operators.) Sep 21 18:01:33 https://webmail.no-log.org Sep 21 18:01:50 will openmoko support android? Sep 21 18:02:04 sounds plausible. Sep 21 18:02:13 Yeah. Sep 21 18:02:15 parodyoflanguage: the question should be whether android will support openmoko Sep 21 18:02:18 Gnutoo, well it does support ssl. Sep 21 18:02:31 minimo Sep 21 18:02:35 TAsn, wow...i'll try again...mabe because of certs Sep 21 18:02:39 viq: Well, at some point you have to succumb to the network effect. Sep 21 18:02:59 parodyoflanguage: you can't really change existing hardware to support a new operating system Sep 21 18:03:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Dream Sep 21 18:03:45 parodyoflanguage: hm, I think that might be out of date Sep 21 18:03:54 I heard that Google dropped HTC in favor of Qualcomm Sep 21 18:03:57 TAsn, wow so mabe i won't have to use firefox anymore... Sep 21 18:04:03 Gnutoo, ;] Sep 21 18:04:32 viq: Hmm. I didn't realize that Android was hardware specific. I don't know much about cell phone technology :) Sep 21 18:04:48 parodyoflanguage: it's an operating system, what did you expect? Sep 21 18:04:51 cjb: Ah. Sep 21 18:05:12 Okay so I want a Freerunner, and I want to buy one today. But I can't decide between 850 and 900, so I would love some advice. Sep 21 18:05:14 viq: A virtual machine of some kind. Sep 21 18:05:32 viq: huh? it runs Linux and Java. what's not portable? Sep 21 18:05:33 I live in the USA right now, but plan on moving to Europe over the summer, and potentially permanently a year after that. Sep 21 18:05:45 lymeca, ouch. Sep 21 18:05:45 Is there no way to have one Freerunner work in both USA and Europe? Sep 21 18:05:49 hard to decide Sep 21 18:05:51 lymeca: different parts of Europe have different GSM. Sep 21 18:05:52 actually they both do Sep 21 18:06:01 parodyoflanguage, if you were carefull at the licences used for android...they use the apache licence with is not copyleft...that is to say a vendor can take the source and not give back(they can give you a binary with no source) ...and i bet the phones vendors won't give you the source...but you will still have the source of the linux kernel...and mabe someone could port the opnemoko stack on it Sep 21 18:06:03 the difference is in the country sides Sep 21 18:06:11 just... 850 works BETTER in USA, and 900 works BETTER in Europe? Sep 21 18:06:16 no Sep 21 18:06:31 lymeca, 850 works in the countryside in us and 900 doesn't. Sep 21 18:06:33 Gnutoo: their reference implementation is open, though. Sep 21 18:06:38 and the other way around. Sep 21 18:06:39 iirc. Sep 21 18:06:43 hm, I think I use 1800. is that possible? How to check? Sep 21 18:06:46 cjb, yes and non standard... Sep 21 18:06:47 lymeca: you are not being specific enough. "Europe" is not homogenous. Sep 21 18:06:55 cjb: hardware platform it's compiled for? Sep 21 18:07:00 viq: ARM Sep 21 18:07:03 cjb: Iceland, germany, and Netherlands Sep 21 18:07:06 cjb, i think all of europe uses 900 Sep 21 18:07:09 as non standard i mean that they didn't use existing free software bricks Sep 21 18:07:16 perhaps a bit of France and England Sep 21 18:07:22 isn't it just north america (australia?) and japan who use 850? Sep 21 18:07:24 They all have 900 in them Sep 21 18:07:34 cool, sounds like you should go with 900 Sep 21 18:07:39 850 isn't really used in the US Sep 21 18:07:45 But I'm in college in the US right now Sep 21 18:07:48 as I understand it. the other two frequencies are. Sep 21 18:07:50 and I want it to work Sep 21 18:07:54 now Sep 21 18:08:06 it would. the 850 isn't very important. Sep 21 18:08:59 Gnutoo: I'm all into the FS philosophy; but even in that philosophy freedom is the important thing, especially with the current state of lock in with cell phone vendors. It's interesting how every other day a story pops up on Slashdot how another application has been forbidden access to everyone's iPhone by Apple. Sep 21 18:09:17 It just boggles the mind. Sep 21 18:09:23 Okay then how does 1800 and 1900 fit into the picture? Sep 21 18:09:37 It's very confusing and I don't know which phone to pair up with which service. Sep 21 18:09:39 parodyoflanguage, you're right Sep 21 18:10:34 I understand that the iPhone is a pretty slick toy, but one has to wonder when even the supposed owner of the said device is only given limited access to the device. Apple still has root. Sep 21 18:11:14 iphone fans argue you can circumvent apple's application blocks, and you can get root on the phone Sep 21 18:11:14 Okay, I'll stop preaching to the choir now :) Sep 21 18:11:21 parodyoflanguage: it would have been easier if we could just have taken some existing hardware and developed free software userland for it. unfortunately that can't be done without specs :/ Sep 21 18:11:33 parodyoflanguage: so now we have both experimental hardware and software Sep 21 18:12:04 yeah, that would've been nicer Sep 21 18:12:13 ieatlint: Yes, that's great. You can break into your own property. That sounds like a bug, not a feature :) Sep 21 18:12:26 but then, openmoko formed the community, and they wouldn't exist if it weren't for the hardware Sep 21 18:12:41 parodyoflanguage, sady, it sounds like a lot of software these days :( Sep 21 18:13:04 i've a stack of bluray movies, a brd-rom, and no way to play them in linux Sep 21 18:13:11 it's quite depressing Sep 21 18:13:49 lindi-: Aye. Sep 21 18:14:20 ieatlint, that's a huge risk...a forced update could brick the device Sep 21 18:15:27 Gnutoo, sure, but apple won't do that Sep 21 18:15:34 they've already proven they won't Sep 21 18:15:42 ieatlint, how? Sep 21 18:16:06 because apple has released a lot of updates, for both the original iphone and the 3g Sep 21 18:16:09 lindi-, I suggested a year and a half ago that OM just be built on some of the already-hacked HTC-brand Windows Mobile phones. Sep 21 18:16:11 As per #htc-linux. Sep 21 18:16:12 and they've never tried to do it Sep 21 18:16:28 I'm in the middle of another "Apple bans iPhone App" discussion on slashdot, and it's sad to see how the Apple fanboys are just bending over backwards, plowing through every impasse of reason, just to defend Apple's actions here. Sep 21 18:16:35 and even if it's just 1000 users who hacked their phones (and it's probably many times that), they'd make a lot of noise Sep 21 18:16:53 the sentiment of apple intentionally bricking peoples phones is REALLY bad press Sep 21 18:17:01 so they won't... Sep 21 18:17:13 don't get me wrong, i'm not an iphone person, at all Sep 21 18:17:19 i have too may friends who are, though :( Sep 21 18:17:26 parodyoflanguage: link? Sep 21 18:17:40 http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/21/122225 Sep 21 18:17:57 apple.slashdot.org... not surprising :-) Sep 21 18:18:07 eh, i dislike apple fanboys too... but apple does have reason Sep 21 18:18:09 True, but it shows up on the mainpage. Sep 21 18:18:25 ieatlint: Oh, I know they have reason: self-interest. Sep 21 18:18:32 there's an implied warranty if not explicit provided by apple for all software you install on the phone, and they need to cover their support costs Sep 21 18:18:44 they're a business, what reason should they have? Sep 21 18:19:28 ieatlint: such kind of brand protection is irrelevant. their platform will die if they fail to follow ballmer's mantra Sep 21 18:19:37 developers developers developers developers Sep 21 18:19:43 the only smart thing I heard from that guy Sep 21 18:19:43 ieatlint: I'm not against self-interest. Self-interest is the way the world works. But the way the free market is *supposed* to work is that product is successful when the self-interest of the company aligns with the self-interest of the customer. Sep 21 18:20:05 parodyoflanguage: that's an illusion Sep 21 18:20:13 parodyoflanguage: we align it ourselves, via enforcement Sep 21 18:20:28 the market won't do it for you Sep 21 18:20:45 instead, focus on providing a free alternative Sep 21 18:20:46 nyu: The market is part of the enforcement process. Sep 21 18:20:49 parodyoflanguage: laissez-faire capitalism isn't doing so hot this week, it turns out. Sep 21 18:21:05 satisfying a small minority of customers (ie, people who are really upset about X program being banned) versus reinforcing the image of a stable phone and thus attracting more customers ... easy choice, and fewer support calls Sep 21 18:21:08 cjb: It has it's ups and downs. Sep 21 18:21:43 i'm not justifying the authoritarian practice, but rather criticising those who bitch Sep 21 18:21:56 you bought into a closed system, found out it was closed, and are upset Sep 21 18:21:58 parodyoflanguage: call it this way if you like. the thing is, instead of complaining about them being evil, we should replace them Sep 21 18:21:59 boohoo for you Sep 21 18:22:19 ieatlint: there's no public scrutiny Sep 21 18:22:34 ieatlint: you aren't supposed to make an investigation every time you buy something are you? Sep 21 18:22:52 nyu, there was no investigation needed Sep 21 18:22:53 ieatlint: I suggest that the majority of iPhone customers don't even understand the difference between open and closed. That's the way the tech industry has always worked: companies take advantage of the ignorance of their customers. Sep 21 18:23:05 ieatlint: maybe not for you Sep 21 18:23:06 no where does apple even imply that it was open, in any way shape or form Sep 21 18:23:25 ieatlint: no, that's assumed by the customer Sep 21 18:23:28 ieatlint: I guess there's some sick justice involved in this, but I can't fully stomach it myself. Sep 21 18:23:40 parodyoflanguage, and those customers are the ones who won't see the app in the store and never know it was banned Sep 21 18:23:57 ieatlint: when you buy a fridge, you'd be fscking annoyed if your assumption that you can put anything inside without the fridge "banning you" were not correct Sep 21 18:24:25 anyway, apple will find its way Sep 21 18:24:26 ieatlint: They'll never know what apps they'll never see in the store. Sep 21 18:24:31 nyu, but a fridge is closed, if it breaks, and you don't go to an authorised dealer, then yeah, you lose your warranty Sep 21 18:24:43 if they alienate their developers, they alienate their customers. too bad for them Sep 21 18:24:53 ieatlint: this has nothing to do with warranty Sep 21 18:25:01 apple didn't care much about the developers to begin with Sep 21 18:25:09 it took them over a year to create an sdk Sep 21 18:25:13 ieatlint: I'm talking about fridges that make their own decisions for you, and decide what you should eat Sep 21 18:25:14 and they charge $100 to get it Sep 21 18:25:23 it has nothing to do with warranty Sep 21 18:25:37 ieatlint, I agree with you, but you probably already know that. Sep 21 18:25:43 re: "those who bitch" Sep 21 18:25:44 nyu, it's an invalid analogy then Sep 21 18:25:45 any company stupid enough to market such a thing will eventually go out of bussiness Sep 21 18:25:51 ieatlint: not at all Sep 21 18:26:01 ieatlint: you simply didn't see anti-user fridges before Sep 21 18:26:14 but you've seen anti-user computers Sep 21 18:26:15 heh Sep 21 18:26:26 nyu, But I disagree. Sep 21 18:26:27 that analogy would work if the phone prevented you from calling certain people Sep 21 18:26:33 or bringing the phone into certain states Sep 21 18:26:39 It's not *all* users that they're anti! Sep 21 18:26:42 That's the trick. Sep 21 18:26:46 ieatlint: it's not a phone Sep 21 18:26:59 nyu, the iphone works as promised (except for the 3g, hehe) Sep 21 18:27:10 a refridgerator works as promised Sep 21 18:27:14 ieatlint: stop talking about it as if it were a phone. everybody knows the iphone is a computer Sep 21 18:27:22 heh Sep 21 18:27:23 its not a computer Sep 21 18:27:30 it's an embedded device Sep 21 18:27:35 its accessory for design and music-students Sep 21 18:27:53 nyu, "everybody knows" - we do. Sep 21 18:27:54 really? I see a computer in it. what makes the difference? Sep 21 18:27:56 Do the users know or care? Sep 21 18:28:04 oh wait, I know. the difference is made by the fact it's locked down Sep 21 18:28:07 circular argument Sep 21 18:28:14 nyu, ok, i have a phone from 1999, one of the old nokia bar phones Sep 21 18:28:16 nyu, Look, I think we all hate the iPhone's restrictions equally here. Sep 21 18:28:17 ieatlint: Anyways, I suggest you check out the FS philosophy (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/) sometime. The incredible thing is that this stuff was written *decades* ago. It's rather abstract and hard for some people to grasp, but that is also the reason why it's so far reaching. But if you're interested in software, this should interest you too. Sep 21 18:28:25 it has a OS, games, software.. is it a computer? Sep 21 18:28:28 paulproteus: they care at some point, when they want to do things and they can't Sep 21 18:28:40 nyu, Yes, and like all of us, people face trade-offs. Sep 21 18:28:49 paulproteus: I don't hate them, just pity them... Sep 21 18:28:50 My parents know that I can run an Asterisk server in the basement for $20 a year. Sep 21 18:29:10 But they'd rather pay Comcast *more* money to have *less control* so they can do less worrying. Sep 21 18:29:23 the iphone is advertised as a phone -- it can freely make and recieve calls on the network for which it was advertised... it can load websites, etc, all as advertised Sep 21 18:29:24 my FSO ms3 doesn't charge when pluggend into usb and "apm" returns a white line, what can I do? Sep 21 18:29:47 paulproteus: people never pay to have less control. except maybe alcoholics in rehab Sep 21 18:29:58 I'm also 3000 miles away now, so they think Comcast is more likely to help them when it breaks. Sep 21 18:29:58 anyway, you get what apple promises you, beyond that, your results may vary Sep 21 18:30:02 paulproteus: what you describe is people paying for a service Sep 21 18:30:27 nyu: I don't hate them either. I fear them. Anyone who thinks this is limited to a line of Apple products is naive. Sep 21 18:30:42 So there are a huge number of competing interests. I just want that to be clear to us Free Software proponents that when people buy the iPhone, they could be doing it for rational reasons. Sep 21 18:30:43 parodyoflanguage: *apple* is naive Sep 21 18:31:02 apple isn't naive, they just don't care Sep 21 18:31:04 parodyoflanguage: when I read these things about them, I can't help but think these people have totally lost contact with reality Sep 21 18:31:23 the advanced users cause the problems, they want the customer who goes "LOOK! SHINY!" Sep 21 18:31:34 and they got them -- a whole lot of them Sep 21 18:31:45 let's see the end of the day shall we? Sep 21 18:31:52 who's gonna get more apps Sep 21 18:31:54 more developers Sep 21 18:31:56 more community Sep 21 18:32:13 Either Apple or Android. Hard to say at this point. Sep 21 18:32:20 heh, that's an entirely different argument nyu Sep 21 18:32:34 ieatlint: no, it's directly related to their policy of alienating stakeholders Sep 21 18:32:53 BTW, I'm currently enjoying using the FR and Qtopia as my primary phone. Sep 21 18:32:55 ieatlint: I don't think anyone is accusing Apple of false advertising. Sep 21 18:33:01 too much hubris, they lost reason Sep 21 18:33:13 Thanks lpotter and mwester for your work on that! Sep 21 18:33:14 nyu, you keep thinking apple cares, they don't Sep 21 18:33:32 ieatlint: but they will when they find themselves lagging behind Sep 21 18:33:47 they added an sdk after people bitched so much, not as part of their original iphone business model Sep 21 18:34:11 unlikely, apple has the sway to get priorietary software onboard Sep 21 18:34:16 adobe flash, for instance Sep 21 18:34:26 apple doesn't like flash Sep 21 18:34:43 people: is it bad to unterupt an opkg upgrade? Sep 21 18:34:44 hmm, i know their browser doesn't have it, but i thought it had other support.. Sep 21 18:34:46 apple infringes on Apple (records) Sep 21 18:34:47 neither do we. or microsoft. or... well, nobody except adobe it seems *g* Sep 21 18:34:50 because i really have to go Sep 21 18:35:09 ieatlint: I think the problem with the iPhone is with the things that they *don't* advertise. No one should expect full disclosure, but this is a biggie. Sep 21 18:35:21 Zorkman, are you installing or running with -test? Sep 21 18:35:28 ieatlint: they cut a deal with google so they could access youtube media without flash Sep 21 18:35:31 parodyoflanguage, what don't they disclose? Sep 21 18:35:37 ieatlint: So, if I'm a bitch, at least I'm not Apple's bitch :) Sep 21 18:35:38 Zorkman: you _can_ get into trouble, but you might also have no bigger problems Sep 21 18:35:53 depends on which package your upgrading Sep 21 18:35:55 ceda: i'll try my lucki :) Sep 21 18:35:56 ieatlint: That customers don't have full access to the device. Sep 21 18:35:57 bye Sep 21 18:36:16 parodyoflanguage, i think it's reasonably assumed Sep 21 18:36:31 and i've not heard of anyone intending to sue apple for not "disclosing" that Sep 21 18:36:41 ieatlint: actually, most customers don't understand what "having access" means Sep 21 18:36:55 nyu, yeah, and they're the best customers Sep 21 18:37:01 but they understand what "sorry, I won't do this for you" means Sep 21 18:37:12 ieatlint: There's no law against it. It's still not right though. Like I said, they're praying on the ignorance of their customers. Sep 21 18:37:26 i think most iphone users are oblivious to what their phone is capable of Sep 21 18:37:54 ieatlint: porn! ;) Sep 21 18:37:58 i know it, in fact, as i used to use a nokia n80 (symbian phone), and when the iphone first came out, i had had this n80 for a year Sep 21 18:38:21 and i can't tell you how many friends i have who got iphones and tried to brag to me about things my n80 had been doing for a full year prior Sep 21 18:38:46 ieatlint: So, that sort of brings me to my next point. If iPhone customers and potential customers aren't aware of these serious drawbacks to the iPhone, and don't understand what good open and free access to the phone is, then it is up to the community to explain things and give opinions about Apple products. Sep 21 18:39:00 ieatlint: Or, in your language, it is our duty to "bitch" :) Sep 21 18:39:02 parodyoflanguage, preying, unless that was some wicked pun Sep 21 18:39:14 parodyoflanguage, people don't care Sep 21 18:39:19 ieatlint, one should look around in Japan, they apparently shun at the iPhone, because it's too "stupid" compared to their gadgets... Sep 21 18:39:33 paulproteus: No, just wrong spelling :) Sep 21 18:39:42 until you can show them your neo, with an app on it they can't match, they'll not give the slightest bit of interest Sep 21 18:39:44 <[Rui]__> Screw Apple, nobody needs no stinking payment or authorization to install my freshly new rotate-0.1.0 Sep 21 18:39:44 gregdude: wow cool :) Sep 21 18:39:50 <[Rui]__> http://blog.1407.org/2008/09/21/new-rotate-for-openmoko/ Sep 21 18:39:52 ieatlint: They don't know why they *should* care. Sep 21 18:40:08 lol [Rui]__! (-: Sep 21 18:40:08 ieatlint: remoko and orrery come to mind Sep 21 18:40:09 parodyoflanguage: they understand better with practical explanations Sep 21 18:40:10 parodyoflanguage, because they don't have the time to care Sep 21 18:40:15 ieatlint: Let people decide for themselves when the reasons are given, but don't bitch about people bitching about Apple. Sep 21 18:40:21 [Rui]__: nice Sep 21 18:40:26 parodyoflanguage: i.e. I can run this app on my FR you can't run this app on your iphone Sep 21 18:40:54 ieatlint: Hahah. Okay, you're going in the direction of unreasonable now. Sep 21 18:41:14 Not that they don't "have time" to care but that they have other things they care even more about. Sep 21 18:41:21 ieatlint: This is when you should calm down and think about this issue for a couple of nights :) Sep 21 18:41:25 you're saying you should make philosophical arguments as to why people shouldn't use apple Sep 21 18:41:27 Environmentalists who think that buying a Mac will help them save more trees might be justified in their own minds. Sep 21 18:41:34 people are even going to feign interest, parodyoflanguage Sep 21 18:41:57 aren't, rather Sep 21 18:42:28 ieatlint: Some people will. You think everyone has the same limited attention span as you do :) Sep 21 18:42:32 and i criticise any apple user who agreed to a licence that restricts them, and then complains when apple excercises that licence Sep 21 18:42:39 ieatlint: Not everyone is the same. Sep 21 18:42:41 People who want to "revolutionize the way we appreciate media on a mobile platform" don't care about the Freedom of that platform, they care about how many users they can reach to have the biggest impact. Sep 21 18:42:45 I know, I've talked to them. Sep 21 18:43:12 parodyoflanguage, i've had enough conversations with people about linux to have a pretty good understanding of how they would react Sep 21 18:43:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology) Sep 21 18:43:36 paulproteus: I think you will find environmentalist don't like apple as they are right up on the shitlist as far as greenpeace are concerned regarding their policies : http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/ Sep 21 18:44:00 Tig|, After that came out Apple improved. Sep 21 18:44:28 I'm not Apple apologist, don't get me wrong. For Christ's sake I'm a Debian maintainer. It's just that I understand that people have priorities, and that for very few people is software freedom even visible in the top N. Sep 21 18:44:33 Tig|_: but apple has a beautiful logo. they must be env-friendly! Sep 21 18:44:34 <[Rui]__> Tig|: it's also of importance to note their language Sep 21 18:44:48 <[Rui]__> Tig|: they don't say don't use Apple, they say: Apple fans, demand better Sep 21 18:44:58 paulproteus: Well, it really isn't the most important thing. Sep 21 18:45:13 paulproteus: Hell, my happiness is more important than software freedom. Sep 21 18:45:19 paulproteus: it always is (hello fellow debianite). but they usually only see it after a long chain of consequences, so they don't understand the problem Sep 21 18:45:20 <[Rui]__> so maybe we should alert iPhone users that they don't have their freedoms, and if they don't want to change their phones, at least demand their freedoms back, from Apple Sep 21 18:45:26 Sometimes I act against the last thing you said, parodyoflanguage. (-: Sep 21 18:45:27 well apple fans are locked in stockholm syndrome with apple anyway Sep 21 18:45:36 paulproteus: Put on any absolute scale, software freedom is very low on anyone's priority list. Sep 21 18:46:06 thats because theres too much money in the system Sep 21 18:46:15 parodyoflanguage: I don't agree. it's just difficult to identify. I heard people countless times complain about problems that are caused by their lack of freedom, without being able to identify the cause Sep 21 18:46:29 even if explained to them (sigh) Sep 21 18:46:44 * paulproteus sighs with nyu Sep 21 18:47:07 I'm going to go get dressed, but it's been fun chatting with y'all. (-: Sep 21 18:47:12 nyu: So, it's like mosquitos biting you. It typically won't kill you, but you'd be better off without it. I agree. Sep 21 18:47:18 If anyone wants to talk more, Google my cell number and ring me on my FreeRunner. (-; Sep 21 18:47:25 example: computer crashes because it's running an nvideous blob because they bought card from a vendor that doesn't respect their freedom Sep 21 18:47:33 nyu: But, you can get along through life even with mosquitos biting you all the time. Sep 21 18:47:34 [Rui]__: you gotta make rotate less sensitive Sep 21 18:47:47 Hello everybody :) Is there a simple way to make sftp or fish work with dropbear? Sep 21 18:47:49 See ya pantsd_ Sep 21 18:48:00 <[Rui]__> ceda: I tried, but in some cases the heuristics are borked Sep 21 18:48:07 my freerunner started to flicker while it was on the couch here next to me (just a few degrees angle) Sep 21 18:48:20 <[Rui]__> ceda: yes, the README says so in the known issues Sep 21 18:48:22 err, bye paulproteus Sep 21 18:48:25 parodyoflanguage: sometimes a new breed of mosquitoes comes up, and they have large teeth and cut people's limbs off Sep 21 18:48:25 [Rui]__: but you could introduce a "silent time" Sep 21 18:48:44 nyu: That's the danger over the horizon. Sep 21 18:48:56 <[Rui]__> the changelog, I mean Sep 21 18:49:13 <[Rui]__> ceda: look at the code, you'll see I tried that already :) Sep 21 18:49:14 a 4 foot tall flying red rooster CAN be right Sep 21 18:49:30 <[Rui]__> ceda: but something went horribly wrong and it would stop rotating quickly. Sep 21 18:49:33 Or is there any way to upload the files over to Neo1973, any distro, without installing openssh, and without using only the console? Sep 21 18:50:18 copy them to the sdcard? Sep 21 18:50:33 with a card writwer/reader? Sep 21 18:50:36 "cat > file" from the X11 keyboard Sep 21 18:50:54 nyu: But, I think the problem with the FS movement has been that there's this loss of context, an understanding of what the importance of FS is in the scheme of things. In some contexts, it's just an annoyance. In other contexts, it's hugely important. But without the ability to prioritize the issue appropriately, the FS movement has largely been seen as a group of zealots. Sep 21 18:50:58 install from sdcard:) Sep 21 18:51:04 Well, taring and untarring them over ssh will be faster than turning the phone off... I want speed :) Sep 21 18:51:55 Does anyone know the fix for "UnboundLocalError: local variable 'first_iface' referenced before assignment " when running Mofi? Sep 21 18:52:02 parodyoflanguage: so? maybe we are a group of zealots, but our zeal is for freedom. theirs is for money. I think it's clear we have the moral high ground Sep 21 18:52:29 microsoft will rewrite history showing THEY were the inventors of open source Sep 21 18:52:33 You know, tar c IMG_9299.jpg | ssh 192.168.0.202 'tar x -C /media/card/Pictures/', is not the greatest way to upload a single picture :) Sep 21 18:52:49 nyu: Well, between the fs movement and the proprietary vendors, I support the fs movement. Sep 21 18:53:31 if ui cant beatem,, joinem, an takem over Sep 21 18:53:34 <[Rui]__> parodyoflanguage: you seem to be confused, nobody sane says Free Software is the most important thing. Sep 21 18:53:57 I do. but I'm insane :-P Sep 21 18:54:17 <[Rui]__> parodyoflanguage: put anyone in a life or death situation, and people will prefer to live rather than die. Sep 21 18:54:17 [Rui]__: Well, the sane aren't always the most vocal. Sep 21 18:54:28 i doo too an im not sane:) Sep 21 18:54:42 <[Rui]__> parodyoflanguage: even Richard Stallman would prefer to live, but he'd be brave enough to die for it, I suppose. Sep 21 18:54:45 [Rui]__: i have to agree, personally, i think it floats around third/forth depending on context Sep 21 18:54:46 [Rui]__: Right. That's all I'm trying to say. And people are still questioning me on it. Sep 21 18:54:48 wow, I found a new meny by clicking the tool on the taskbar! After 2 months ownership. Sep 21 18:55:05 <[Rui]__> parodyoflanguage: the thing is, you're placing very shallow reasons Sep 21 18:55:14 [Rui]__: ? Sep 21 18:55:15 [Rui]__: Well, but it's more important than it seems at first. The software has become a fundamental part of our lives... Sep 21 18:55:22 s,The s,S, Sep 21 18:55:38 [Rui]__: if I had to choose, I'd love an accelerometer-based rotator Sep 21 18:55:52 [Rui]__: See. People are questioning your statement even here. :) Sep 21 18:56:17 who cares about live and death when you got a nifty accelerometer thing Sep 21 18:56:25 nyu: heh Sep 21 18:56:33 <[Rui]__> trashhold: not more important than breathing air. Sep 21 18:57:03 [Rui]__: I think determining the overall priority of free software is badly needed for the fs movement. Sep 21 18:57:12 <[Rui]__> parodyoflanguage: you have placed the choice on shallow reasons, not life or death situations. Sep 21 18:57:36 [Rui]__: I can imagine some zealots who, for example, won't help their mother send and email unless she agrees to switch to a free OS. Sep 21 18:58:10 [Rui]__: What shallow reasons? Sep 21 18:58:17 <[Rui]__> most people who chose iPhone did it for: a) being a fanboy, b) thinking the gay user interface is so much better than all the features they lost from their previous phone, c) all of the above Sep 21 18:58:21 I'm for free software, and I bought my mother a Mac. Sep 21 18:58:26 parodyoflanguage: are they more zealots than their mother? your situation cannot be judged without all context Sep 21 18:58:42 <[Rui]__> there's no reason in favour of the iDicatorPhone that isn't shallow :) Sep 21 18:59:03 parodyoflanguage: if you strip it, you seem to be emmitting a generic judgement that would apply to any variation Sep 21 18:59:06 nyu: Of course they are. The point of free software is supposed to bring people together, not divide people. Sep 21 18:59:46 parodyoflanguage: and what's the point to justify non-free software? Sep 21 18:59:59 parodyoflanguage: it's completely missing in your description Sep 21 19:00:10 nyu: That it's your mother's computer and she can do what she wants with it? :) Sep 21 19:00:25 parodyoflanguage: maybe it was needed for a reason, or maybe it's purely arbitrary Sep 21 19:00:39 parodyoflanguage: nobody was questioning that Sep 21 19:01:07 nyu: Then what aren't you still getting? Sep 21 19:01:14 parodyoflanguage: my point is, don't make absolute judgements over ethical conflicts Sep 21 19:01:44 And my point is: help your mother sending an email, even if she doesn't use free software :) Sep 21 19:02:13 parodyoflanguage: why doesn't she? you state it as if it were a fact of nature Sep 21 19:02:31 nyu: Because that's what she's used to using. Sep 21 19:03:11 parodyoflanguage: ok, so rephrase it as "help your mother sending an email, even if she can't do it with free software because she has a strong dependency on a non-free UI" Sep 21 19:03:17 nyu: It takes older people longer to accustom themselves to changes, and they far prefer everything staying familiar. Sep 21 19:03:23 see? that's the part you ommitted Sep 21 19:03:55 nyu: I think you're being pedantic :D Sep 21 19:03:57 though, maybe that dependency is not so strong. when _my_ mother migrated, she didn't even notice the UI change Sep 21 19:04:01 nyu: The problem with proprietary software is on the side of the developer/"vendor", not on the side of the user. The user is affected by the proprietary software, but there is nothing wrong with the fact the he or she is using it. Sep 21 19:04:01 no, I do have a point Sep 21 19:04:36 parodyoflanguage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_The_Children_(politics) Sep 21 19:04:41 nyu: Okay, I can see it in the sense that for other reasons your mom might be using the computer because she isn't aware of a free alternative. Sep 21 19:05:59 Is there a tutorial on how to compile a "hello world" for my phone? -- in C would be nice. Sep 21 19:06:34 RayDar: I usually use bitbake Sep 21 19:06:52 nyu: BTW, my last comment was agreeing with you, btw. Sep 21 19:06:53 nyu: In theory, the decision whether you should help the user must not be affected by his choice, and the right thing is to help. Some people choose to not help in such cases, because they believe it might help in the long term and reduce the problem with prop. software, but it's still not the right thing to do Sep 21 19:07:12 parodyoflanguage: :-) Sep 21 19:07:42 trashhold: you're oversimplifiing a complex ethical situation Sep 21 19:08:04 Oh no. It's a moral canundrum. Sep 21 19:08:24 is 2008.x usable as a daily phone yet? Sep 21 19:08:26 nyu: I believe that I was closer to just stating that is a complex situation :) Sep 21 19:08:28 RayDar: We're discussing fs philosophy :) Sep 21 19:08:43 <[Rui]__> AntonTakk: I'm using it as a daily phone Sep 21 19:08:46 trashhold: but you say "this is always the right thing to do, no matter what" Sep 21 19:09:03 and I agree it is in some cases, but it depends on lots of things Sep 21 19:09:53 trashhold: Hmm... Sep 21 19:10:36 Well, in general, even outside of the scope of sofware, in order to support the freedom of others, you're supposed to support their ability to make their own choices. Sep 21 19:11:04 parodyoflanguage: how does someone's ability to make choices need external support? Sep 21 19:11:43 nyu: Well, what's the difference between freedom and bondage? Sep 21 19:11:46 if I choose that I want to use MS-Office, and you don't install it for me, that doesn't mean you're obstructing my freedom Sep 21 19:11:54 nyu: No, my point was, that the right thing, only in respect to the situation, forgetting everything outside its scope, is to help. :) I sometimes don't, but when I do so, someone is affected by my desire to improve something... And I might not be improving it much, you know... :) Sep 21 19:12:02 as long as you don't prevent me from installing it Sep 21 19:12:08 nyu: A slave can still make his own choices, but he isn't considered free. Sep 21 19:12:37 parodyoflanguage: not because of lack of support, but because of the presence of restriction Sep 21 19:13:25 So, positive and negative freedom. Sep 21 19:13:27 <[Rui]__> just a thing... interesting as this is, you're discussing Free Software, could you continue on #fsf or #gnu ? Sep 21 19:14:02 parodyoflanguage: no. freedom is asserted by self-determination. it's not freedom when someone else gives it to you Sep 21 19:14:03 <[Rui]__> it's more or less gone to the point where you're discussing it only you three/four Sep 21 19:14:09 uhm Sep 21 19:14:10 [Rui]__: Heh, good point. But I gotta go anyway. Sep 21 19:14:12 right Sep 21 19:14:31 <[Rui]__> generating alot of "spam" for almost 400 people .) Sep 21 19:14:35 I should do some work ;-) Sep 21 19:14:39 nyu: Sure. I'll have to mull that over. Sep 21 19:14:43 <[Rui]__> and I'm making dinner! Sep 21 19:16:09 hello, what's the size in pixel of the upper bar? Sep 21 19:16:16 in om2008.9 Sep 21 19:22:43 Gnutoo: take a screenshot, then you can check it in gimp Sep 21 19:23:07 nyu, ok thanks Sep 21 19:23:58 nyu, how do i take a screenshot in 2008.9...i know how to do it in FSO...but not here... Sep 21 19:31:49 Gnutoo: gre-scap Sep 21 19:32:06 LionKMP, thanks Sep 21 19:32:14 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gpe-scap Sep 21 19:32:17 not gre :) Sep 21 19:32:59 I run it from SSH with "DISPLAY=:0 gpe-scap", so that I can take any time. Sep 21 19:36:19 hello Sep 21 19:36:34 i need help with sim card issue Sep 21 19:36:38 who can help me? Sep 21 19:37:14 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware_Issues#Some_SIMs_Don.27t_Work ? Sep 21 19:37:41 (I don't know the problem, I just know that article, so I linked in case you didn't see yet.) Sep 21 19:38:07 LionKMP: this is not a answer ... yesterday i succesful register my sim today after reboot i didnt get any sim request Sep 21 19:38:25 this is problem Sep 21 19:38:50 sorry, I don't know. Let's wait to see if someone else. Sep 21 19:44:03 how do I get my FSO image into USB Host mode? Sep 21 19:49:32 is this not ok for FSO? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Host_Mode Sep 21 19:53:34 nope Sep 21 19:53:52 my keyboard doesn't light up, which it did before :( Sep 21 19:54:49 (when pressing NumLock) Sep 21 19:57:19 nyu: at the dinner table at christmas 2003 I told my relatives/extended family that I won't help them with their windows issues Sep 21 19:57:42 ... after 5 years time Sep 21 19:58:05 the reason being that there would be no reason to run Microsoft's Windows as a OS Sep 21 19:58:12 it has no advantages to Linux by then Sep 21 19:58:32 that was a premonition and I think I'll stick to it Sep 21 20:00:04 today, for all the people that sat around that table (and their kids), windows is an enabler in regards of gaming (I have two cousins that like to play WOW) but for everything else, there really is no valid reason for paying 100 € for their OS Sep 21 20:00:23 my grandparents run ubuntu, 06.10 and they're still happy with it Sep 21 20:00:33 it have never failed them, it just keeps on running Sep 21 20:02:12 what does "Would you like to receive list mail batched in a daily digest?" on the mailing lists exactly mean? one bundled mail a day or one additional one? Sep 21 20:03:18 one a day Sep 21 20:04:48 cjb: so there is no risk of getting hundreds of emails, thats fine Sep 21 20:05:34 cool just baught a cheap bt headset to play with Sep 21 20:05:38 11$ Sep 21 20:06:19 cjb: is there a specific time when this email is sent? Sep 21 20:07:31 malik1972: probably midnight? dunno. Sep 21 20:09:26 cjb: thanx, if i subscribe and activate daily digest, i will get only one email a day, otherwise i could not handle it at work Sep 21 20:11:19 What good image viewer is suggested for a use with the Neo? Sep 21 20:13:20 omview is quite nice Sep 21 20:13:28 trashhold: I have used the gpe one Sep 21 20:13:57 how can i restart gsm modem on om2008? Sep 21 20:14:36 pd_, i never had om2008 though i can guess that it will be something like Sep 21 20:14:48 /etc/init.d/gsmd restart Sep 21 20:17:56 TAsn: there are no gsmd Sep 21 20:18:29 no idea ;\ sorry. Sep 21 20:18:36 was my only guess ;[ Sep 21 20:18:37 Tig1: Thank you very much :) Sep 21 20:19:53 anyone FSO-ish around? Sep 21 20:34:16 ceda: I have used it if that helps :) Sep 21 20:35:49 ceda: they can still play wow with wine. though I think wow is a worse problem than windows in many ways Sep 21 20:36:11 Tig1: thanks. I'll see if I can figure out some more on my own first Sep 21 20:36:28 nyu: ok and ok Sep 21 20:47:26 <[Rui]__> cjb: hey, are you there? Sep 21 20:47:43 hi, yup Sep 21 20:47:59 <[Rui]__> cjb: I sent you an email about rotate, did you check it out? Sep 21 20:48:14 <[Rui]__> cjb: meanwhile, I took the concept and rewrote it from scratch Sep 21 20:48:16 Please tell me I don't have to "build openmoko from scratch" to compile a "Hello World" program. Sep 21 20:48:19 yep! I don't have much time for OM stuff at the moment, but it looked pretty good Sep 21 20:48:28 [Rui]__: neat, got a link? Sep 21 20:48:45 <[Rui]__> cjb: yes, it showed up on p.o.o just a couple of hours ago Sep 21 20:48:47 RayDar: all you need is this: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain Sep 21 20:48:51 ok Sep 21 20:49:02 <[Rui]__> cjb: http://blog.1407.org/2008/09/21/new-rotate-for-openmoko/ Sep 21 20:49:38 <[Rui]__> cjb: it's still marginally less stable than your original one, but I found out that by reading a full packet at once I got clean results Sep 21 20:49:48 <[Rui]__> cjb: full set of packets, that is. Sep 21 20:49:50 that's odd, I thought I was reading a full packet at once Sep 21 20:50:09 I do a single read(2) of seven lines or so, and couldn't get it totally stasble. Sep 21 20:50:15 <[Rui]__> cjb: I read 4 packets, and map them to 4 input_events Sep 21 20:50:25 <[Rui]__> x, y, z and syn Sep 21 20:50:39 one question, does the freerunner play vorbis audio files? Sep 21 20:50:47 <[Rui]__> and from my initial test (merely printing out the data) it seemed to be working quite fine! Sep 21 20:50:48 nicfer: that's not a hardware feature Sep 21 20:50:54 nicfer: you decode it in software Sep 21 20:51:02 <[Rui]__> one could even notice patterns of movement just by waving regularly the phone Sep 21 20:51:21 nicfer: so it is not very energy efficient but works Sep 21 20:51:47 [Rui]__: cool, I'll try it out Sep 21 20:52:02 LionKMP: Thanks... reading now. Sep 21 20:52:04 <[Rui]__> cjb: heh, at your own time ;) thanks for the inspiration Sep 21 20:52:06 I mean, is it powerful to play them? Sep 21 20:52:35 well, that was all for this weekend Sep 21 20:52:47 nicfer: sure Sep 21 20:52:58 what about theora? Sep 21 20:53:30 Is there some doc on how to setup network forwarding from my laptop through the USB to the neo 1973 and out the cellular modem? Sep 21 20:53:41 nicfer: haven't tested but that's quite resource intensive Sep 21 20:54:17 RayDar: do you mean that you want access to internet on your laptop via the neo? Sep 21 20:54:29 ceda: Yessir Sep 21 20:54:34 RayDar: what os? I simply used the mandriva control center's share internet feature. (there is, anyway. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Usb_networking) Sep 21 20:55:33 RayDar: iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 192.168.0.200 -d ! 192.168.0.0/24 -j MASQUERADE Sep 21 20:55:37 on the neo Sep 21 20:55:43 LionKMP: I already have that working (on Gentoo BTW) -- so that my neo can use my laptop's Internet. I wanna go the other way -- so that my laptop can use my neo's Internet. Sep 21 20:55:49 <[Rui]__> cjb: I did notice that both your way of reading packets and mine crash after some time Sep 21 20:56:03 RayDar: then "ip route add default via 192.168.0.202" on the laptop/desktop Sep 21 20:56:05 RayDar: ah, ok, sorry :) Sep 21 20:57:04 RayDar: you might need to remove the default gw on the desktop if there was one before (which is most probable) Sep 21 20:57:30 I used this on the train som weeks ago. worked like a charm Sep 21 20:57:47 ceda: OK. I will give your commands a try. If they work, I will re-connect to the IRC through my neo.... Sep 21 20:57:49 [Rui]__: huh, behaving pretty oddly here Sep 21 20:58:02 seems like it hangs for five seconds and then does many rotate operations or something Sep 21 20:58:08 RayDar: good luck Sep 21 20:58:48 <[Rui]__> cjb: maybe something stuck on xrandr? Sep 21 20:59:11 <[Rui]__> cjb: I am not very sure about my heuristics for the positions Sep 21 20:59:14 maybe.. the console stops updating Sep 21 20:59:26 and then it updates very quicklly and does many rotations in a row later Sep 21 20:59:51 <[Rui]__> cjb: wow that I haven't noticed Sep 21 21:00:03 * [Rui]__ is right now trying to improve the heuristics Sep 21 21:00:05 ceda: Thanks... I'll need it. Sep 21 21:00:15 ok :) Sep 21 21:01:03 RayDar: if you have working internet on the Freerunner first (set up GPRS) and make sure the default goes through gprs/ppp0 Sep 21 21:01:03 <[Rui]__> cjb: sometimes I noticed that the accelerometer gave weird values Sep 21 21:01:26 RayDar: then it should be very simple and cause no troubles Sep 21 21:01:27 <[Rui]__> I had the phone resting on a table, and sometimes it suddenly decided it had another kind of rotation (with a complete set of packets) Sep 21 21:06:31 <[Rui]__> cjb: I noticed from your email that you're connected to OLPC, I'm a proud contributer to the G1G1 program, myself... but I did had to resort to a proxy :) Sep 21 21:14:45 Is there any way to edit xorg.conf so that there is right click emulation? Sep 21 21:15:18 trashhold: there's been a way to hold the pen down to emulate right click Sep 21 21:15:34 don't remember what was needed to be done to enable it Sep 21 21:17:43 That's what I need... Sep 21 21:27:51 anyone has experience on head phone jack repair ? :)) https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/2019 Sep 21 21:31:49 http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/21/1730256&from=rss Sep 21 21:35:45 Vegar: If I had FR, I would already have kismet and aircrack installed :) Now I have to bring my laptop with me everywhere to be able to impress girls Sep 21 21:36:44 your laptop would be faster Sep 21 21:38:27 That's true, but I rarely see anyone using WEP anymore, only unsecured networks. So, it won't matter much :) Sep 21 21:42:15 morning troops Sep 21 21:42:29 The only reason to use WEP is if you have a DS Sep 21 21:42:56 kirun, nah Sep 21 21:43:01 you just install linux for ds Sep 21 21:43:01 ;[ Sep 21 21:43:04 ;] Sep 21 21:45:13 I've seen laptops with cards that do not support WPA (or their owners claim so and couldn't configure them). But for some weird reason, everywhere I go, I see nobody using it. I used to, when I had problem getting WPA with bcm43xx :) Sep 21 21:46:42 afaik you could add wpa with driver software, but not positive... Haven't been really interested in those anyway. I use unencrypted wlan and ssh and/or tls for things that matter. Sep 21 21:47:22 (afaik also in practice nobody's done wpa for some legacy cards) Sep 21 21:47:31 My computer's next to the phone socket, I use a wired connection to the router anyway Sep 21 21:48:01 ceda: I don't have an iptables command on my neo. :( Sep 21 21:48:14 * mwester uses 28.8 dial-up; so slow don't even need a firewall. Sep 21 21:49:12 I hear they have these 33.6 modems these days Sep 21 21:49:58 Ah, that's ok. I find it a lot cheaper to let other experiment with that bleeding-edge stuff. Sep 21 21:50:02 * RayDar used to use the very rare 18K modems -- back before 14.4K was cheap. Sep 21 21:50:53 * ljp uses morsecode to tap out bits by hand Sep 21 21:51:11 * TAsn 's first modem was 56k. he was too cheap before that. Sep 21 21:51:20 ^^ Sep 21 21:51:39 So nobody here's using CPIP? Sep 21 21:52:03 I am trying to change Xterm's font size but I can't succeed using the -fn option: I don't know what do put in that option. I tried several tutos on the web but none helped. (xfontsel is even not packaged for the OM :/) Sep 21 21:52:05 * mwester uses SNA Sep 21 21:52:26 trashhold: http://www.clubpenguin.com/cpip/ ??? Sep 21 21:52:46 * mjr got in the game with a whopping 300/1200 bps dual rate modem ♡ Sep 21 21:53:20 Tig1: No, http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ Sep 21 21:57:24 trashhold: ah 1149 :) I still have to put the website up for our rfc1149 isp, it was announced here : http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2003/04/27/hermits-cave-isp-opens-for-business just after el reg announced theirs which went titsup in a comedy manner :) Sep 21 21:58:08 ye gods 2003 Sep 21 21:58:56 with delivery times like this I should work for OM :P :) Sep 21 22:00:58 gah.. Sep 21 22:01:02 why wont opkg ever work? Sep 21 22:01:08 But would I be able to use this service from OM? :P Sep 21 22:04:56 trashhold: hmm I should push the mobile internet angle then :) Sep 21 22:12:58 how do I install iptables Sep 21 22:16:09 god opkg is driving me insane! Sep 21 22:16:45 what is it outputting now Sep 21 22:16:48 whenever i try to download and install a package, i get "An error occured, return value: -1092662516." Sep 21 22:16:58 what can i do? Sep 21 22:17:06 ooo that is a special one Sep 21 22:17:15 on qtopia, dns is configured Sep 21 22:17:46 does qtopia have sig files? Sep 21 22:18:05 oh yeah, when i try to opkg update Sep 21 22:18:17 i get errors when it tries to install the .sigs Sep 21 22:18:39 i can pastebin if you like Sep 21 22:18:44 sorry I was trying to find out what the numbers meant :) Sep 21 22:18:51 alright Sep 21 22:19:48 Tig1: The number are described on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Opkg Sep 21 22:20:18 thoughts on neopwn ? (http://www.neopwn.com/) Sep 21 22:22:33 niklauz, remote-exploit should release a distro for the openmoko Sep 21 22:22:56 RayDar: well that link suggest and "unknown error" Sep 21 22:23:29 * RayDar needs to take the time to study "iptables" one of these days. Sep 21 22:23:46 no ideas on what i can try? Sep 21 22:24:11 yabo: what are you trying to achieve ? Sep 21 22:24:40 apologies my attention span is very short :) Sep 21 22:24:42 install python Sep 21 22:24:59 which image are you using? Sep 21 22:25:03 qtopia Sep 21 22:25:15 ah Sep 21 22:25:32 any other image I could help with Sep 21 22:25:43 how is debian? Sep 21 22:26:40 can you call and send text-messages with debian? Sep 21 22:26:42 I have heard that it is quite good for software but is using the FSO demo app for communications Sep 21 22:27:17 yabo at the moment if you want to use your freerunner as a phone then use qtopia Sep 21 22:27:59 alright Sep 21 22:28:04 do you know Sep 21 22:28:16 if i can download python from python.org and install? Sep 21 22:28:21 will that work+ Sep 21 22:28:39 probably not unless it is compiled for arm4 Sep 21 22:28:57 usj.. stupid opkg Sep 21 22:29:12 you might be able to download it and make it work from one of the other images Sep 21 22:29:26 2008.9 Sep 21 22:29:39 is that very unstable and stuff? Sep 21 22:29:46 that might work but you are on your own Sep 21 22:30:19 you're using fso? Sep 21 22:30:31 I don't have the qtopia image experience to comment Sep 21 22:31:11 My freerunner is currently running FSO but I am a user not a programmer Sep 21 22:31:40 aha Sep 21 22:32:21 i want to have a flashy gui, and python + working text-messaging Sep 21 22:32:25 I was running FDOM for a while but it was clunky when it came to being used as a phone Sep 21 22:33:16 yabo: then you need to wait a few months for the framework stuff to really happen Sep 21 22:33:23 alright Sep 21 22:33:26 yabo, for a phone i heard qtopia rocks Sep 21 22:33:31 for a dev device, im using fso Sep 21 22:33:37 screw the gui then. i want python and text-messaging Sep 21 22:33:41 do what ever you like ;] Sep 21 22:34:12 text on the framework is not fully there imho atm Sep 21 22:34:23 Tig1, yeah. Sep 21 22:34:27 no support for ucs2 Sep 21 22:34:33 though he may not need that. Sep 21 22:34:40 if he doesn't Sep 21 22:35:02 * ljp thinks qtopia is perfectly fine for a dev device Sep 21 22:35:03 all he has to do is wait when a message arrives and move it to the mmc and erase it from the sim iirc. Sep 21 22:35:16 ljp, qtopia isn't the future. Sep 21 22:35:33 furthermore i said nothing about qtopia ;] Sep 21 22:35:39 python on Qtopia anyone? halp! Sep 21 22:35:39 yabo, for a phone i heard qtopia rocks Sep 21 22:35:39 for a dev device, im using fso Sep 21 22:35:42 one question, is possible to use a compiler in a freerunner? Sep 21 22:35:53 nicfer, should be. Sep 21 22:35:57 the only Q is why. Sep 21 22:35:58 nicfer: yes Sep 21 22:36:04 uh huh Sep 21 22:36:06 yeah sure, but you don't want to really Sep 21 22:36:11 it's an academic exercise Sep 21 22:36:34 gn. Sep 21 22:36:35 qtopia certainly has a bigger future now beign owned by the worlds largest phone manufacturer Sep 21 22:36:50 nicfer: you can but it is not going to be as fast as cross compiling on another box Sep 21 22:36:54 ljp: Either then, or its negation. Sep 21 22:37:04 s,then,that, Sep 21 22:37:10 I can't type today Sep 21 22:38:20 qtopia is not being negated Sep 21 22:41:17 I meant the negation of your statement. The fact that it's owned by Nokia alone doesn't mean it has bigger future, it could, but it could also mean exacly the opposite. Sep 21 22:41:29 im going to install 2008.8 Sep 21 22:41:29 brb Sep 21 22:42:25 For example, I was afraid of the possible discontinuation of the free versions of Qt and Qtopia, when I first heard about the acquisition. Sep 21 22:42:55 we all were Sep 21 22:43:16 but everyone thought they bought TT for Qtopia. which isnt really the case Sep 21 22:44:42 * mwester is very interested to know what Nokia thinks of Qtopia on a competitor's hardware device Sep 21 22:44:54 Hello Mr. ljp. Sep 21 22:45:14 Well. I doubt the Neos are on their radar at this point Sep 21 22:45:23 or well, radar, sure, but just a small blip Sep 21 22:45:37 you think bug Nokia considers small Openmoko a competitor? Sep 21 22:45:42 big, not bug Sep 21 22:45:57 * mjr hands ljp a pair of Freudian slippers Sep 21 22:46:14 actually, Qt Software is unique in Nokia, as we have our own customers Sep 21 22:47:47 Well, I'd hate for some low-level power-hungry Nokia manager to have a bad day, and issue some order to cease any further work to support the Neo or FT with Qtopia. I've seen managers do silly stuff like that before. :( Sep 21 22:48:12 the neopwn guys seem to have forgotten that the GT02 wifi can't do packet injection ... Sep 21 22:48:35 But on a positive note, how does one submit patches/fixes to Qtopia? The general bug tracker, or do you prefer some other means? Sep 21 22:48:42 rwhitby, I saw a mention about them having support for multiple usb wifi sticks, presumably for that purpose... Sep 21 22:49:17 well, considering the Neo port was all my idea and my work... they couldnt really stop me from doing it Sep 21 22:49:26 they also have some FUD on the purchasing page about flashing bootloader being *dangerous* (they put it in red) Sep 21 22:49:27 mwester: bug tracker Sep 21 22:49:45 rwhitby: ya, thats too funny Sep 21 22:50:09 mjr: ah, yes - their kits have usb wifi dongles Sep 21 22:50:24 didn't openmoko wiki use to have an identical FUD? Sep 21 22:50:35 probably still has Sep 21 22:50:36 balrog-k1n: for neo1973 it was true Sep 21 22:50:39 mwester: they could, but they woudl have one pissed off community developer that is known and likes to blog Sep 21 22:51:03 oh, right, there's a backup bootloader Sep 21 22:51:18 ljp: Ok. I'd also like to help in assembling/testing the new stuff, if you are looking for any guinea pigs or assistance. Sep 21 22:51:23 so anything on OM pages is probably just normal out-of-date wiki stuff, instead of intentional FUD to make you buy neopwn instead of doing it yourself Sep 21 22:51:29 tbh an eee would be more subtle for pentesting Sep 21 22:53:03 otherwise you would be wanging your FR pretending you were ghostbusters for a bit Sep 21 22:53:05 * mwester thinks using little things like tablets and phones for pen-testing is just plain silly. Sep 21 22:53:15 but the screenshots show that at least the neopwn guys know what they are doing as far as choice of apps goes. most are probably just mockups menu entries at the moment, but good luck to them. Sep 21 22:54:09 hmm - actually since it's debian most are probably real Sep 21 22:54:11 dfu-util or bootloader could make a sound when the download is done. Sep 21 22:54:14 The professionals would suspect anyone with any type of handheld device; anyone else wouldn't care if you unloaded a full-size laptop and started working. Sep 21 22:54:16 it takes so long time. Sep 21 22:54:49 But hey, everyone wants to play "Mr. Secret Agent Man" ;) Sep 21 22:55:16 heh, on the hardware page they even say that it's unbrickable, but on the other page it's *dangerous* (in red) to flash :-) Sep 21 22:56:44 a plane could hit your house at the same time you were flashing the bootloader Sep 21 22:57:09 Well, maybe they mean that its unbrickable if you don't flash it? Or they could mean something else by dangerous :) Sep 21 23:11:45 hmmm are there any freerunner reseller in Argentina? Sep 21 23:12:37 Neopwn seems to be one of the first to offer a specific software stack for the Freerunner... Sep 21 23:15:00 doh, tried to flash again the phone and it doesn't boot. Sep 21 23:15:21 this time i ran i386 version of dfu-util on x86_64 os. Sep 21 23:19:10 <[Rui]__> argh I'm *so* stupid... Sep 21 23:20:49 anyone know an easy way to get rid of the u-boot patch for running debian on the microsd card? I formatted my sd card and dont want to boot off of the sd card anymore....but the nand u-boot continues to try to boot into it by default....even though i have reflashed the nand uboot Sep 21 23:24:16 cause it uses env var's that reside elsewhere (not in nand) Sep 21 23:24:33 need to get into uboot console and modify the vars Sep 21 23:25:03 do you know what var to modify? Sep 21 23:25:22 something like default= or somethin you should look around the wiki Sep 21 23:26:46 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader_commands#Environment Sep 21 23:27:16 cool...thanks Sep 21 23:29:50 Hi all I finally got my freerunner working like a daily phone, Sep 21 23:31:30 what firmware you using? Sep 21 23:32:56 FDOM Sep 21 23:34:02 suspend? Sep 21 23:34:54 i guess thats more of a kernel hicup then firmware Sep 21 23:35:05 er rootfs Sep 21 23:35:22 really wish that were stable Sep 21 23:39:06 dude this cheap bluetooth headset i baught is annoying wont turn on and the instructions say to let it charge for 10hrs first :P but i wanna play now! Sep 21 23:39:29 fricken 10hrs!! gotta be shittin me i think its just DOA Sep 21 23:39:48 what's a DOA ? Sep 21 23:39:55 dead on arrival Sep 21 23:40:21 can really complain as it was just like 12$ Sep 21 23:40:42 cheapest bt headset i've ever seen Sep 21 23:42:17 receipt says its normaly 30$ Sep 21 23:53:06 So I just installed Om2008.9-gta02-20080916 and it seems to be sitting stuck at a screen with a picture of boots and "booting: 59%" Is this expected? Sep 21 23:53:18 oh … sorry it just moved some more. Sep 21 23:53:32 patience Sep 21 23:58:13 something i cant grasp with this bt headset Sep 22 00:17:19 darn charger sucks Sep 22 00:18:11 ripped the headset apart and have been periodicly checking the battery's charge ... nowhere near its intended output like 4hrs of charging Sep 22 00:18:24 :P Sep 22 00:18:41 must be why i got it for a lil over 10$ Sep 22 01:15:58 Does anyone have their OM self-hosting? :) Sep 22 01:34:25 so how is battery life on the latest builds? Sep 22 01:40:23 4 devices running on 1 battery= sucks Sep 22 01:42:49 what does the u-boot usb serial console require on the other end (linux + kermit?) Sep 22 01:55:20 for flashing a new os? Sep 22 02:21:43 anyone boot the debian version over SD card? is it much slower? Sep 22 02:52:34 I GET 2 4GIG SDCARDS TOMORROW Sep 22 02:52:56 maybe debian will get on 1 Sep 22 02:53:20 or maybe on the 2 gig card i have now Sep 22 02:53:51 im thinking a 4 gig card would be better for debian Sep 22 02:55:30 * AntonTakk is back to using his previous phone full time, fr now lives in the desk drawer, waiting for good (imho) software Sep 22 02:57:11 good luck Sep 22 02:57:33 u could put fdom on it Sep 22 02:57:56 at least the gps works an pidgin Sep 22 02:58:25 qtopia failed? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 22 02:59:57 2008